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Talk:Chögyam Trungpa

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By the late seventies, having established himself as the leading Buddhist teacher in the United States, Chögyam Trungpa began his presentation of the Shambhala teachings, a non-religious meditative path bringing dignity, confidence, and wisdom to every facet of life. He and his Sakyong Wangmo, his queen-consort, would lead the establishment of this enlightened society.
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.198.144 (talk) 16:59, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

(added -- 88.75.68.31 (talk) 15:24, 2 April 2009 (UTC))
 * See WP:APT for some pertinent Wikipedia guidelines. This text reads like promotional literature, not an encyclopedia.  The valid point made in this text is already made in the next section. Bertport (talk) 19:31, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Is this true?
What about his reasons for Vajradhatu instead of Dharmadhatu?
 * Chögyam The Translator)
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.213.34 (talk) 10:19, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

see page three and four: "When Rinpoche sought to name an organization or project, he often would turn to Sanskrit again-examples range from Vajradhatu to Shambala, Nalanda to Naropa (all written without the more scholarly use of diacritics)-though he remained mostly in his native idiom for the names he chose for his military and service organization,.........."
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.81.137 (talk) 19:30, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

P.S. In my sanskrit dictionary the word vajra does not appear. There is only Vraja.
 * -- 88.75.81.137 (talk) 19:33, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Clearly your dictionary is defective. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.88.229.196 (talk) 19:13, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Sakyong Wangmo

 * can this be added somehow?
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.68.31 (talk) 15:41, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Text
The Golden Sun of the Great East; the Root Text on How to Executre the Ashe of the Changeless Supreme Rigden, the Profound Brilliant Just Powerful All-victorious One, by Dorje Dradül of Mukpo (Hardcover - 2001)

Product Description Shambhala Root Text. This second edition has been re-edited using, where possible, gender-inclusive language. Other amendments have been made based on a re-examination of the original Tibetan manuscript.

35 pages, Publisher: Vajradhatu Publications (2001), ASIN: B00154O998
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.200.76 (talk) 10:38, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Translations
Shouldn't we add a list of translations done by Chögyam Trungpa and his group? http://www.chronicleproject.com/stories_53.html, https://isbndb.com/d/person/nalanda_translation_comm.html, http://dharma-haven.org/tibetan/teachings-ctr-students.html. Maybe it's sufficient to add the last weblink.
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.92.28 (talk) 11:31, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Author
 * The Rain of Wisdom by Nalanda Translation Comm
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.90.230 (talk) 22:42, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

 * "Other amendments have been made based on a re-examination of the original Tibetan manuscript. " "the original Tibetan manuscript: that is??????????
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.216.105 (talk) 12:48, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

This might be an answer:. "Trungpa Rinpoche is believed by his students to have received these teachings directly from Gesar of Ling, an emanation of Padmasambhava, and the Rigden kings . Their terma status was confirmed by the esteemed Nyingma master His Holiness Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche."
 * Austerlitz -- 88.72.5.241 (talk) 08:28, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Yes, those texts contain both the original Tibetan terma as well as English translation by Rinpoche and the Nalanda Translation Committee. And gender language has been adjusted in more recent translations. They're only given out as part of Shambhala Training weekend programs (and one at the Warriors Assembly two-week long retreat) currently. I think the first one is offered once a student has gone through levels 1-5, then the three weekends called Great Eastern Sun, Windhorse, and Drala. Though I expect the exact sequence might shift somewhat over the next few years. - Owlmonkey (talk) 16:23, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Kalachakra

 *
 * -- 88.75.77.67 (talk) 20:48, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Samaya
What about his view?

 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.87.242 (talk) 13:18, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://www.kheper.net/topics/gurus/Trungpa_cover.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.kheper.net/topics/gurus/Chogyam_Trungpa.html&h=500&w=342&sz=86&tbnid=nqTaGHEETYR5PM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=89&prev=/images%3Fq%3DCh%25C3%25B6gyam%2BTrungpa&hl=de&usg=__Q5wAQZSfCUC8wIwlVXGOiYmJAQM=&ei=0OF5St_RDqTAmgPJ_MWBBg&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=5&ct=image

 * -- 88.75.210.58 (talk) 20:11, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Chögyam Trungpa about Karma http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2864&Itemid=0&limit=1&limitstart=2, Pema Chödrön on very old karmic seeds ripening

 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.206.117 (talk) 10:26, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

 * The notion that the Shambhala Teachings are non-religious (or secular) is incorrect. That is how they are presented, but it is not true. Shambhala is the name of a "hidden country" that is probably the same as the region of Pakistan nowadays known as the Swat valley, although there are other theories about it's original location. Swat is the place from which the important tantric teacher Padmasambhava came from. It is also known as Urgyen and Uddiyana. I believe that it is also the place where the Ghandara form of Buddhism reached it's peak.

 * As far as I can tell, the Shambhala teachings are really derived from the Kalachakra Tantra. They make explicit the underlying militarism of the Kalachakra.

 * It's very difficult to cite these things, because anything to do with the Buddhist tantras is supposed to be kept secret, on pain of damnation to hell. But I was told these things by a student of Trungpa, who studied under him when he first came to the west. MrDemeanour (talk) 08:28, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Elephantjournal Readers
I see that elephantjournal is asking his readers to come edit this page. The public is indeed invited to become part of the cooperative Wikipedia community. There are policies in place that govern what sort of material can be used. Sources must be verifiable. Sources need not be neutral. The article overall should present a balanced, full, properly weighted picture of the subject. Bertport (talk) 04:29, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Recently deleted testimony of former students
It seems that this article has recently come to the attention of Shambhala, and a number of new editors have flocked to the site to delete the following material:

 * Two former students of Trungpa, John Steinbeck IV (son of novelist John Steinbeck) and his wife, wrote a sharply critical memoir of their lives with him in which they claim that, in addition to his addiction to alcohol, Trungpa had a "$40,000-a-year cocaine habit, along with a penchant for Seconal. . . although his drinking and sexual exploits were never kept secret, his staggering coke habit was well concealed from his students." Among the things they found appalling:

 * Women were trained as 'consorts.' That meant they knew what to do when he threw up, shit in the bed, snorted coke till dawn, turned his attention to other women and maybe even got in the mood for a threesome. Our little band of recovering Buddhists began to ask people if they thought this flagrant behavior constituted religious or sexual abuse. The standard answer you get from the male good old boys is . . that they never . .heard any woman complain about sleeping with Rinpoche. (I use that term loosely, because for years he was alcoholically impotent and would devise little sexual games such as using a dildo known as 'Mr. Happy' or insisting women masturbate in front of him.) . . . Many women, who felt they were no more than chattel, silently left the scene.

 * Another former student, Stephen Butterfield, noted that "Trungpa told us that if we ever tried to leave the Vajrayana, we would suffer unbearable, subtle, continuous anguish, and disasters would pursue us like furies . . . doubting the dharma and associating with heretics were causes for downfall . . .if this was the consequence of merely leaving the organization, what supernal wrath might be visting upon me for publicly question or discussing my experience of it?" Butterfield noted the "disquieting resemblances" to cults, noting "to be part of Trungpa's inner circle, you had to take a vow never to reveal or even discuss some of the things he did. This personal secrecy is common with gurus, especially in Vajrayana Buddhism. It is also common in the dysfunctional family systems of alcoholics and sexual abusers. This inner circle secrecy puts up an almost insurmountable barrier to a healthily skeptical mind." Nonetheless, he ultimately concluded about his experience of Trungpa's organization, "a mere cult leaves you disgusted and disillusioned, wondering how you could have been a fool. I did not feel that charlatans had hoodwinked me into giving up my powers to enhance theirs. On the contrary, mine were unveiled."

It seems to me that the only rationale for deleting this material is that it makes Chogyam Trungpa look bad. Both of these eyewitness accounts are from published books that certainly meet the reliable source standards. There is nothing that says quotations and opinions cannot be included on wikipedia, provided they are clearly identified as originating with the authors of reliable sources.Sylvain1972 (talk) 13:26, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

 * Yes, the attacks were instigated by a fellow who is sort of a Buddhist Rush Limbaugh. The main points of the material are relevant and important, and meet WP standards too, as you say.  But maybe the presentation here was unnecessarily inflammatory.  I think that the article in its present state still captures the essentials and allows the interested reader to track down the sources for more.  Do you think something needs to be restored? Bertport (talk) 13:42, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

 * I don't think it is our place to judge whether or not "inflammatoriness" is "necessary." Better to let the critics have their own voices. Also, one major point that has been removed from the article as it now stands is that the "party line" on Chogyam Trungpa is that he was always totally open about his vices. But Steinbeck claims that his coke use was top secret. So that has been edited out.Sylvain1972 (talk) 13:53, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

 * That's a good point about the secrecy vs. the party line. I don't mind if you put stuff back in to the article.  It might be a good idea to get Haiduc's opinion on the content, since he's the other good-faith editor who's been editing the material recently. Bertport (talk) 15:54, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

 * Good idea - we can let this stand for comment for a couple of days and take it from there.Sylvain1972 (talk) 16:49, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

 * I think we need to make a distinction between material that reads like reported fact (he used 40K worth of coke per year) even if uncorroborated, and material that is a writer's personal hypothesis, like Butterfield's musings on dysfunctional families. Anybody can play amateur psychologist, but that does not mean that this article is an appropriate platform for reporting such theorizing. It is not a matter of the material being inflammatory, but of its being germane and informative about Trungpa. Butterfield's opinions seem to be more informative about Butterfield. Haiduc (talk) 17:21, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

 * In the case of the former, I don't think we can say it reads like reported fact because the passage very clearly identifies the material as allegations by the Steinbecks, who were in a position to make credible allegations. Furthermore, they made their allegations in a book published by a major publishing house. I agree that some of the Butterfield material is on less solid footing, but the psychological theorizing is actually the part that is most well-disposed to Trungpa.Sylvain1972 (talk) 18:54, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

 * All right, I brought back the specific claim about keeping the cocaine use secret. I have seen in many discussions on various web sites, claims and counterclaims, interpretations and counter-interpretations, that hinge on how open CTR was supposed to be, so this is clearly germane here.  I think what we have in the article now is good.  Any differing opinions, please speak up here. Bertport (talk) 19:26, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

 * I still think the full quote should be restored, unless there is a valid reason why not. It also contained the info that he slept with a large number of his students, and not all of them were ultimately OK with it.Sylvain1972 (talk) 20:45, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

 * I thought the subject of Trungpa's promiscuity was already in the article, but I don't see it. It certainly should get some coverage.  Haiduc, what do you think about restoring the rest of the Steinbeck passage? Bertport (talk) 23:17, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

 * Have others besides the Steinbecks made any claim about cocaine use, or corroborated the $40,000 figure? "Inflammatoriness" might be hard to pin down, but cocaine use is illegal. It is quite a serious charge, and not one that I have seen made anywhere else in writings about Trungpa.Jgrundberg (talk) 23:35, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

 * There is a certain difference between an encyclopedia article and yellow journalism. The main thrust of a responsible approach is to focus on meaningful material that describes the man and his role and impact on society. Much of the deleted prurient material, like he fact that he may have suffered from incontinence in bed (this of man who was severely affected by paresis!) is juvenile or irrelevant. And the American fascination with drugs and sex has little to do with Trungpa's historical importance. "Promiscuity"?! That in itself betrays a lack of editorial impartiality. He loved a number of women? Sure it should be mentioned. Some had second thoughts? Lots of lovers have second thoughts, yours and mine too, I am sure.
 * In the final analysis the section suffers from undue weight, and not only should the stuff that was pruned stay out but possibly a good bit of what is left should be relegated to the status of a footnote. You are talking about a major teacher who inspired thousands, if not tens of thousands of students and who was very highly regarded by some of the most respected and experienced figures of Tibetan Buddhism, and you are not doing the reader a favor by highlighting the musings of a couple of disgruntled students. There is more on that Halloween party than there is on his Shambhala vision! This is ridiculous. We will all end up looking like a bunch of jerks. Haiduc (talk) 00:15, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

 * We aren't talking about "a couple of disgruntled students". I personally owe a great deal to CTR (despite never having met him), but I'm very keen that the factual material about this incident should be retained. There's very little information about his "eccentricities" available in the public domain, and (unsurprisingly) there are many people who consider it their duty to ensure things stay that way. I don't have the same view about Steinberg's speculations about psychology, or about the value of the cocaine CTR may or may not have consumed in a year; I doubt Steinberg was in a position to know.
 * Furthermore: it seems that we aren't talking only about a single event. "Further, regarding Wilber’s intimation that the guru’s actions were an isolated “mistake”: When a former resident of Trungpa’s community was asked, in 1979, whether the “Merwin incident” was a characteristic happening, or a singular occurrence, she responded (in Clark, 1980): "It is a typical incident, it is not an isolated example. At every seminary, as far as I know, there was a confrontation involving violence." http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/trungpa.asp 87.194.213.229 (talk) 16:29, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I find his various eccentricities talked about fairly openly in the biographies published and publicly available, in far greater detail than we have here (except for the cocaine claim only in Steinbeck's biography.) There have been a few now. But I'm not sure how seriously I would take Falk's book chapter compared to the more intimate accounts. Falk seems pretty partisan against the Vajrayana form altogether. - Owlmonkey (talk) 19:49, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

 * Regarding the cocaine usage, I don't know of other printed sources for this, but it is corroborated by multiple Trungpa students on other forums, including comments on the elephantjournal page that invited readers to strip this article. I also have known about this for many years.  Even without corroboration from other parties, it passes Wikipedia standards for inclusion as a "Steinbeck claims" passage.  (I don't object to your replacing "habit" with "usage" although I don't know how else you can use that much cocaine, other than by a pretty intense habit, and I'm not aware that "habit" constitutes a medical diagnosis.)  The sexual habits (oh, did I just make a medical diagnosis? I didn't mean to) are more than a matter of some private individual getting it on with lots of lovers, in light of the position of power he held over his students.  This territory is very familiar to students of power in religious hierarchies.  The point of yours that I resonate with is the question of undue weight.  I really don't have a strong feeling at this time as to how much prominence this material deserves in this article.  Maybe adding the remaining material in footnotes is a good way to go.  As for the existing (and long-standing) material on the Merwin incident, I will advocate strongly that it remain as is.  That is by far the most famous controversial incident in his career, and the material here is the result of painstaking negotiation between editors with very different points of view. Bertport (talk) 01:10, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

 * Having power and using power do not automatically translate into abusing power. But that is not an argument that either of us is qualified to engage in, according to Wiki rules. As far as the use of the term "habit," it is another word for addiction, and no credible sources have come forward to document that claim. Did he get the shakes when he ran short, did he exhibit pathological behavior? We do not know, so we cannot say he was addicted.
 * As for the Merwin incident, I still think it is overkill but for the moment I have no intention of trimming it down, especially if you say that it is the result of a lot of work. It certainly seems balanced, if overlong. As for other stuff, we could possibly take some of the remaining gossip and put it into footnotes, but I would not support reviving the deleted stuff in any form. Imagine doing an article on Auguste Rodin and spending a quarter of it discussing the fact he had athlete's foot.
 * As for the undue weight aspect, these eccentricities of a man who seems to have been unimaginably eccentric (a terton at an age when other children still played stickball, from what I hear) are not of the essence of his significance, which is that of being an exceptional spiritual teacher. They only take up the space they do because someone or other has found that they do not fit in with his or her expectation of what a spiritual teacher should be like. But there is a contradiction there that I should not have to explain. Haiduc (talk) 02:14, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

 * I disagree that "habit" is equivalent to "addict" but as I said before, I'm OK with "usage" anyway. I have to disagree also with characterizing these claims as being "eccentricities" or anything so innocuous as a case of athlete's foot.  Rick Fields, expressing one of the more comprehensive and balanced viewpoints, said that Trungpa did more good, and more harm, than anyone else.  What was the harm?  Certainly not just an isolated incident of humiliating two students at a seminary one night.  I agree with Sylvain1972 that the story is not complete without even a mention of prolific drug usage (a controversial claim) and prolific sexual activity (which none will deny, but much controversy exists over how to characterize and how to interpret it). Bertport (talk) 02:36, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

 * While I still think the Merwin incident should stay, I do not think we should make the section a soapbox for Rexroth's spoutings. It is enough he is mentioned as having railed against Trungpa. This is another example of disproportionate coverage. Haiduc (talk) 14:25, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I am done with my edits for the moment. I have not squelched anyone, but have prevented some of these critics from droning on and on. Again, there is a difference between acknowledging criticism and putting a critic on a soapbox. Haiduc (talk) 14:52, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

 * Umm, BertPort, what Rick Fields actually said was "caused more trouble, and did more good, than anyone I'll ever know." There's a world of difference between trouble and harm. Perhaps you're being a little trigger-happy? :-)  szpak (talk) 03:18, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

 * I was wondering where you were, Mark. Correction accepted.  He may or may not have meant something equivalent to "harm" when he said "trouble". Bertport (talk) 03:35, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Teachers
"Unfortunately, jealousy between sangha members is probably inevitable. It is found in almost every sangha. If you are enthusiastic about the teachings, it is natural to want to be as close as possible to the teacher." Maybe a section jealousy around buddhist and other teachers should be added. Because -according to my judgement- people striving for common aims are not thus easily victim of jealousy, don't you think?
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.202.173 (talk) 14:39, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

 * I'm having trouble following you. But your suggested topic sounds like it would go somewhere else, not in the biography of one teacher. Bertport (talk) 16:16, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Vajrayana dangers
It is preposterous to cling to the Butterfield text on Vajrayana dangers for two reasons. First, it is an excessive coverage of the opinions of a single student. It is as if we were raising Butterfield almost to a level of equality with Trungpa. In the second place, but just as important, is the fact that the Vajrayana is widely recognized as dangerous. Butterfield's text makes it seem as if Trungpa was out to scare his students with absurd bogeymen, but even the most rudimentary search of the material will reveal that it is common knowledge that the Vajrayana is dangerous. I could go on and on, but you see my point. The remarks are taken out of context, and are grossly misleading. Haiduc (talk) 16:06, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) "Vajrayana evaluates itself as potentially dangerous...." Buddhism after patriarchy: a feminist history, analysis, and reconstruction ... By Rita M. Gross
 * 2) "by no means an easy path nor devoid of dangers..." The essence of Jung's psychology and Tibetan Buddhism: western and eastern ... By Radmila Moacanin
 * 3) "when not practiced properly the practitioner can harm himself..." The Buddhism Primer : an Introduction to Buddhism By Dhammasaavaka

 * Not at all. Not everyone who comes to this article is familiar with Vajrayana tradition.  It would be fine to add a remark following the Butterfield, to the effect that this threat of hellish suffering for breaking samaya is common to the Vajrayana tradition.  For students of religious organization sociology, this is a recognized meme with recognized implications.  It is meaningful to them, to learn that Trungpa promulgated this meme. If you insist, I will add a supporting citation from a Trungpa text. By the way, this is how controversy sections grow - different viewpoints challenge each other and draw out supporting material from each other. Bertport (talk) 16:31, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

 * No problem. But if this is a widely held view, as it certainly seems to be, what is it doing in the Controversies section??? Haiduc (talk) 17:20, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

 * For one thing, there's the narrative flow of the article - we're in the midst of quoting Butterfield already. There's a subtext (one of many) in the controversies section about what the nature of the relationship between this teacher and his students was.  Awful consequences to breaking samaya vows is part of the Vajrayana tradition, but it doesn't follow that every teacher embraces it, just as different Christian teachers embrace, emphasize, or reject different Christian traditions. Bertport (talk) 18:52, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

 * I am sorry, but that does not make any sense to me. We already have far too much of Butterfield here, an English prof who seems to have smoked lots of dope, and now we are compounding that problem by padding the controversies section with stuff that is not controversial at all (or if it is it is inherent to the Vajrayana and not to Trungpa) just because the other Butterfield material is in the controversies section(!). What kind of a system is this to write an article?! Not every Vajrayana teacher thinks it is crucial for the student not to break samaya??? You may be right, but a hell of a lot do think it is important, and even if some might take a devil-may-care attitude (who, if I may ask?) that does not mean that it is a Trungpa controversy, but as per above, a spiritual path controversy. Haiduc (talk) 21:55, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

 * I'm sorry, too; your remarks aren't making any sense to me, either. They seem to amount to some personal animosity you have toward Butterfield. Bertport (talk) 00:12, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

 * I am not important. I have criticized the article in several respects, and they are what needs to be discussed, not your opinions about me or my opinions about you. The arguments are:
 * Butterfield's notions and musings are overrepresented in this article.
 * Uncontroversial material is inappropriately placed in the controversies section.
 * "Narrative flow" is an inappropriate justification for the misleading placement of material unrelated to Trungpa controversies.
 * I hope this makes more sense now. Please address these issues so that we can resolve them. Thank you, Haiduc (talk) 02:03, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

 * Its place in the controversies section is clear enough. The material is not there because someone named Stephen T. Butterfield wrote it; it's there because it's one from one of the few published memoirs by former students of Trungpa, and because it makes pertinent points not otherwise brought to the reader here.  Clearly he is expressing criticism of Trungpa's approach.  The threat of unbearable anguish and disasters resembles (if not exemplifies) the well known strategy of using threats and fear to keep people from leaving the teacher's influence, and thus is one of the disquieting resemblances to cults.  The paragraph we now have in the article is a minimum to give readers some idea of the tone and content of this former student's published take on Trungpa.  You may call it criticism instead of controversy, but that is not a basis for excluding it from the article.  We can change the section header to "Controversies and criticism" instead of just "Controversies" if you can't see having this under the shorter heading. Bertport (talk) 03:52, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

 * I do not deny that there are cults which use methods of intimidation to keep followers from defecting. And I do not deny that on the surface, the threat of terrible things happening to someone as a result of mishandling the Vajrayana could be read that way. But if we make use of our editorial intelligence, we can readily conclude that in this case the danger is real, and the warning is in keeping with standard Vajrayana practices. That is why this material does not belong here.
 * It is like calling a nature guide manipulative and controversial for telling his clients that if they swim in the bay they will be eaten by crocodiles. The beasts are there and waiting. Where's the controversy??? We as editors cannot look only at the form, we have to look also at the context.
 * If you prefer, we can keep this material and place it in the teachings section, as part of a discussion about his bringing the Vajrayana teachings to the West. Haiduc (talk) 11:35, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

 * I'd put it the other way around - on the surface, it seems to be merely an example of Trungpa bringing Vajrayana teachings to the West, but if we make use of our editorial intelligence, we can readily conclude that this is a superstition which bears a disquieting resemblance to one of the marks of a cult. That is why the material belongs where it is. Bertport (talk) 13:16, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

 * If you want to argue that the dangerous nature of the Vajrayana is a superstition, this is not the place to do it. And the "disquieting resemblance to a cult" is refuted by Butterfield himself. You are tilting at phantoms. Haiduc (talk) 14:31, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

 * @Haiduc - I think you raise an important question, but I disagree that Butterfield's comments about samaya are irrelevant to the controversies section. While it is true that Trungpa was expressing a fairly conventional Vajrayana view, there seems to be a widespread perception that Trungpa was a modernizer who presented the realms only in psychological terms. It is therefore instructive to see that he did also present hell as something which one can experience postmortem as (what seems to be) an external reality. That going to hell was presented as a consequence of disloyalty is also relevant to the controversies section in light of allegations of misconduct directed against him.Sylvain1972 (talk) 13:50, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

 * There seems to be a disconnect here. Telling students they will go to vajra hell if they break samaya ("Trungpa told us that if we ever tried to leave the Vajrayana, we would suffer unbearable, subtle, continuous anguish, and disasters would pursue us like furies") and will have a bad time in the bardo, seems to be old hat in the Tibetan tradition, and as you say, it is a fairly conventional Vajrayana view. So far we are in agreement. But how do you get from Butterfields words, quoted above, to disloyalty? Butterfield does not say "if we ever tried to leave Trungpa." Presumably you could leave Trungpa and go to study with Kalu, or whoever. I still do not see controversy here.
 * If you want to call controversial his switch from the psychological approach to the less modern view of seeing bardo experiences as seemingly objective, then that needs to be stated as such. Haiduc (talk) 14:31, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, in this case I think the disloyalty thing happens to be true, and the implicit connection made between the first quote and the second one is not misleading. But you may be right that the evidence at hand is not explicit about this connection, so perhaps it does not sufficiently corroborate it. Re you second point, perhaps so. I can't do the work right now of constructing that with proper citations, but I'll keep it in mind. Sylvain1972 (talk) 14:50, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

 * It may be interesting to discuss how his approach was seen as controversial by the Tibetans for being too western and by the westerners for being too traditional. Haiduc (talk) 16:57, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

 * Undue weight is being given in this discussion to a single sentence in the article. Editorial reasons for including a sentence do not have to be explicitly stated in the article itself.  If we applied this level of scrutiny to every sentence in the article, we'd never be done. Bertport (talk) 16:15, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

 * Some sentences are more pivotal than others. We do need to be accurate and truthful, and this process has been useful as groundwork for ongoing editing. Hopefully we will evolve a fair and stable version out of all this. Haiduc (talk) 16:57, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Recycling
It seems to me that some of the material at the top of this discussion page, though at the moment inappropriately phrased, can nevertheless be mined for useful information. For example, we could say about Shambhala training that "it is presented as a path that brings dignity, confidence, and wisdom to every facet of life" and that "the enlightened society it proposes would be led by himself as 'sakyong' (Tib. earth protector) and his wife as queen-consort or 'sakyong wangmo.'" Haiduc (talk) 00:23, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

 * That would work. Bertport (talk) 13:26, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Legitimate?
I am concerned by the recent edits to this and the crazy wisdom article, which personalize and thus delegitimize matters that should be approached more directly. Midal's comments echo statements made by others. His status as a student does not seem to be relevant here, though it might be in other circumstances, suc as his expressing personal opinions uncorroborated by others. Haiduc (talk) 21:43, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

 * You're correct. As long as he is accurately reporting the assessments of others, there is no need to qualify his reportage.Sylvain1972 (talk) 21:50, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Revert?
I don't understand what you are doing, nothing has been removed from the article. Haiduc (talk) 01:26, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Cause of death
I was OK with removing the symptoms of cirrhosis because I thought it was settled, with the final admission by Trungpa's personal physician, that he died of liver poisoning due to alcohol consumption. Those symptoms were originally listed here because people were contending that he died of "heart failure". But removing the actual statement by the physician reverts the article to an unacceptable state of saying "he died of heart failure". Therefore, I have restored a version that presented the full story of the cause of death. Bertport (talk) 01:26, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

 * No such edit intended. I will check. Haiduc (talk) 01:27, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

 * "He had chronic liver disease related to his alcohol intake over many years." It is there. What are you talking about? Please restore my work, I was not done. Haiduc (talk) 01:29, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

If you look at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ch%C3%B6gyam_Trungpa&oldid=317564282 you will see the lead says "he died of cirrhosis of the liver" and references "Chronicles Radio Presents. November 1st, 2008" http://www.chronicleproject.com/chroniclesradio_dispatches/2008_11_01.html where his personal physician finally puts a rest to the years of denial about the cause of his death. Maybe you aren't aware of all the active resistance that went on, at this article and elsewhere, to acknowledging that his liver failed due to chronic alcohol consumption. That history of denial is, in fact, a significant part of his legacy. Bertport (talk) 02:33, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

 * There is no denial whatsoever. If his doctor says he died of cirrhosis, that is it. It is there in the Death section. But I looked at a whole bunch of other articles on lamas, and did not find a single one that lists the cause of death in the lede. I do not think it belongs there, all the more so when we have two sections below that discuss it, the Death section and the Controversies section. Talk about beating a horse to death! Haiduc (talk) 02:39, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Wonderful! Denial of denial. Read the archives of the talk page. I contend that the cause of death does belong in the lead, because it was premature and it was a consequence of his signature lifestyle, and because many of his students have denied it for so many years. In any case, you removed the definitive statement of cause of death from the article altogether, not just from the lead. Bertport (talk) 02:44, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

 * No intention at all of removing anything definitive, I may have done it inadvertently as I was doing a lot of very quick edits. Feel free to put that back in, or I will be happy to do it. But I will not agree with putting the cause of death back in the lede. You are beating people over the head with it, there is no need. Three times is overkill. Two times is too many, but I can let that pass. But I have to point out that there is a vindictive quality to this article that has troubled me from the get-go, and you have reinforced my suspicions with your statement that we have to put the cause of death in the lede because it has been denied by his students. Who are you getting back at?! Are you punishing his students for being in denial??? I was in the process of working some material on his controversial history into the lede, in the last para, when you trashed my work. Let me finish what I was doing and then we can discuss. Please restore it, I do not want to do it myself. Haiduc (talk) 03:06, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

A lot of your recent edits were not actually improvements to the article, anyway. The article is well balanced as is. Be more careful with your edits and do not remove critical material. I see you did not understand the critical nature of that citation because you have not studied the subject closely. But that should be a signal to you to proceed more cautiously and find out why material is in here. I will accept moving the definitive statement of cause of death to the death section, even though that is a detrimental edit, but I will not accept removing it altogether. Bertport (talk) 04:17, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

 * I will continue the revisions and expansion from where I left off. At the same time I will ask you, if you have an objection, to first discuss things. I have no appetite for conflict, and I think you and I can resolve anything through dialogue, if the experiences of the last week are any guide. Haiduc (talk) 10:57, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

On Chögyam Trungpa
"Inhis public and private teachings he wove in what he called the Mother, who 'safeguards against the development of ego's impulses". Trungpa 1973 a, 23 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.72.23.189 (talk) 12:38, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Trungpa on Dakini
Trungpa 1973 a, 23
 * http://yoniversum.nl/dakini/dakini1.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.72.23.189 (talk) 12:46, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
 * http://www.chronicleproject.com/stories_120.html
 * --88.72.23.189 (talk) 12:51, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Unreliable source: Stripping the Guru's chapter on Trungpa Rinpoche
Wikiwhip (talk) has questioned if this is truly an unreliable source. He did not post the this unreliable source. This "book" is actually only a PDF file that the creator previously spammed on dozens of wikipedia articles until he got blocked. He even tried to write an article for his pdf file! --Peter Jackson Biddulph (talk) 20:17, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Orlady previously asked Biddulph to follow certain guidelines when removing sources that he considers unreliable. I do not "keep adding" the "Stripping the Gurus" source, as Biddulph accuses me of doing. It has been listed there for years. I merely undid Biddulph's removal of the source twice and will continue to do so until he proves that he is not censoring controversy about Trungpa, which has been repeatedly (though unsuccessfully) attempted by members of Trugpa's organization. The source itself is based upon dozens of quotes from reputable third-party publishers. Biddulph, please wait until we get a second opinion from Orlady before you undo my edit.

WikiWhip (talk) 03:22, 29 November 2012 (UTC)WikiWhip

 * I have to agree with Peter Jackson Biddulph that this is not a reliable source. There is plenty of other reliable material which can (and is) cited which makes clear the nature of Trungpa... this cite is unnecessary.  I have to personally agree that Trungpa was something of a scoundrel, and I personally enjoy seeing him exposed.  That, however, does not require the use of such a shaky source. Marteau (talk) 04:46, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, the length of time that citation has been here is completely irrelevant. As is PJB's motivation.  He may well be trying to protect Trungpa's reputation... I have no idea... but it does not really matter WHAT his motivation is... only that this source is very weak.  Marteau (talk) 04:53, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Whoa! Wikiwhip... changing PJB's words he said himself, as you did with this edit is HIGHLY uncool. If you want to challenge what he says, then challenge what he says, but changing his very words is completely unacceptable! "Never edit or move someone's comment to change its meaning, even on your own talk page" as per Marteau (talk) 05:34, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

 * I agree this is not a reliable source. The author has no relevant academic background or credentials, and the publication itself is peculiarly unbalanced and agenda-driven, more like the outpourings of spiritual neurosis than objective assessments. Contrary to what has has been said above, it has been published as a book since 2009. Even though it has been around for a long time, it has the notably poor Amazon rank of 1,600,000. Trungpa's oddities, from peccadillos to the dark side, are properly documented elsewhere, and there is no need to use this, rather scurrilous source. --Epipelagic (talk) 05:58, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Wikiwhip (talk) please explain how this is a reliable source? As far as I can tell, it does not adhere to any of the requirements for notability as laid out in WP:IRS. Please do not resort to "it has been on this article for a long time" because that is irrelevant. Also irrelevant is what Orlady said about another occurrence... as far as I can tell, she has not had anything to say about this instance. In addition, Peter Jackson Biddulph's motives are also irrelevant... all that matters here is, is this source reliable or not? Marteau (talk) 06:46, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
 * In addition to not being a reliable source, the content itself of the pdf file or print to order book is also not reliable, as detailed here. --81.100.47.239 (talk) 07:32, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

About the "publisher" of this book... the author says this on his blog: "Back over the summer, I had finally officially registered Million Monkeys Press (my self-publishing thing) as a business entity..." (www.geoffreyfalk.com/wp_blog/?cat=66 warning: Google says that site may be compromised). Million Monkeys Press only publishes the author's book... clearly this book is by the author's own statement, self-published. According to WP:SPS self-published works are only permissible as a citation when the author is an "established expert on the topic of the article, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications" and I see no evidence of that. Clearly this cite does not belong here. I recommend giving WikiWhip a chance to either concede this source is unreliable or offer up evidence of this author's status as an expert as well as having been published elsewhere. If that fails, perhaps a submission to the Reliable Sources Noticeboard may be necessary. Marteau (talk) 17:42, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

 * WikiWhip doesn't have to "concede this source is unreliable or offer up evidence of this author's status as an expert...". The absence of a coherent response from WikiWhip is enough to establish a clear consensus here that the source is unreliable, and you are starting to beat a dead horse. --Epipelagic (talk) 19:43, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Removing cite. Sentence supported by this citation does not require editing or removing due to numerous other examples of unconventional teaching within that section. Marteau (talk) 01:24, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Birth Date
This passport image shows his birthdate as Feb 19, 1939. This article says Feb 28. Is there evidence of Feb 28 as his actual birthdate?

http://ginsbergblog.blogspot.com/2013/04/chogyam-trungpas-paranirvana.html Avibodha (talk) 06:16, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

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"Lady" Diana Mukpo
What would be the reason to refer to Trungpa's wife as "Lady"? This is an English title of nobility. If she was referred as such in Trungpa's group, I do not see any reason to use it in an encyclopedic context. --Bernardoni (talk) 19:06, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

Diana Mukpo came from a middle class British family. Her father was a lawyer. Although Shambhala International and Mukpo herself likes to pretend she is an aristocrat, the title of "Lady" was bestowed upon her by her husband, Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, when he turned his organization into the mythical kingdom of Shambhala. Had her mother been a member of the British aristocracy, she would not have been eligible for hospice assistance when Diana sent her back to England to die. Diana's step-son, the leader of the organization, has been accused of sexual abuse and rape by community members, many are now refusing to address anyone in the Mukpo family with a royal title. However, the Halifax newspaper recently ran an article calling the leader's wife "Princess". WikiWhip (talk) 19:27, 2 December 2018 (UTC)WikiWhip

Dumfries joke-shop crash
I have heard that Trungpa attributed the crash to the action of his personal protector deity, Ekajati. He was reluctant to disrobe and abandon the protection that monkhood afforded him; the crash was her emphatic message to him. Shortly after the crash, he first disrobed, then emigrated.

Incidentally, Ekajati is quite a scary figure - one eye, one tooth, one breast, one leg. In the circles in which I once moved, it was considered dangerous to mention her name. MrDemeanour (talk) 15:36, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Chogyam Tungpa rumors
Your message to me indicates that you did not read the citation the poster is referring to. Twice, the poster uses the term 'sexual predation' or 'predator' but that is entirely unrelated to the citation, which only discusses abuses of the STUDENTS of Chogyam Trungpa. This is an important issue to thousands of people and to extrapolate a buddhist lama's activity by that of his students is illogical.

I have no problem if the poster can find a verifiable source of 'sexual predation', but as of this writing, I have not seen this. I would like to continue to curate this page as this issue is one of heated emotions, and this often results in rumors and hearsay.

Thank you. Brad — Preceding unsigned comment added by Illusionsgame (talk • contribs) 11:50, 22 October 2020 (UTC) (reply)

 * Hi Brad, thank you for your message. I've moved the discussion here - to the article's talk page where other editors will see it for consensus. Content in the article regarding his sexual behaviors goes back to at least 2009. I happen to agree with you that having the words "sexual predator" in the lead section is heavy handed. However I do think that this behavior has been well documented over the years, and it belongs in the "Controversy" section, along with verifiable reliable sources. Just so you know, I was not the editor who originally added it, however I doubt it was added in bad faith, but rather to achieve balance and a neutral point of view. Regarding: I would like to continue to curate this page, we don't really do that except for brand new articles. There is a policy that says that no one owns content on Wikipedia, see "Ownership of content" WP:OWN. Best wishes to you and thanks again for reaching out for discussion. Netherzone (talk) 14:35, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

St. Antony's
I've added a citation for Trungpa's attendance at St. Antony's.

I've known two people who met him while he was a student at Oxford in the sixties (Rigdzin Shikpo and Alf Vial). I've so far failed to get confirmation from the college; but even if I did get confirmation, that would be WP:OR. The citation doesn't say he was a member of the college (i.e. matriculated to study for a degree). Perhaps he just did some courses.

MrDemeanour (talk) 13:12, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I suggest that Karmê Chöling be merged to this article. It is currently a promotional-sounding puff-piece, and both articles would benefit from the context that is here. Outside of its association with Chögyam Trungpa, it's not particularly notable on its own. Joyous! Noise! 17:42, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

 * I agree that the Karme Choling page is a puff piece, as are most of the Shambhala pages. However, I don't think merging it here is appropriate, as it was also under the direction and administration of Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche for thirty years.  I think it would be better to either add additional information to the Karme Choling page or delete it altogether. Sopa Dodren (talk) 20:56, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Item in Notes Section Appears Irrelevant or Mistaken
Bullet number 9 in the current notes section currently links this URL:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/sexual-assaults-violent-rages-inside-dark-world-buddhist-teacher/

However, the subject of the linked news report is Sogyal Rinpoche -- an entirely different person. Moreover, it is used as the citation for this line in the current version:

He died from complications arising due to alcoholism.

Which appears to be wholly unrelated. Can we safely assume this is an incorrect or misplaced citation? Can anyone advise if there is one that should go in its place? Removing it entirely would disorder the inline citations. Benjamin Schulz (talk) 19:51, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Let it Be, and Move On
Whatever has happened, seems pretty traumatic to some individuals on this page. In my opinion, I think it’s best to forgive, so there will be less suffering. The practices taught to me from Shambhala brought by Mr Chögyam Trungpa, even though very basic shamatha meditation, has significantly changed my life. To read everyone on this page debate what is right or not is biased. I’m sorry that some of you had to experience trauma, we all have in life. I hope someday that you all can move on and grow from this experience, and ready understand what the Shambhala teachings actually mean. Building an enlightened society. Humans are not perfect, we make mistakes. We grow from them! 2603:8001:0:7C8:5DD6:C63F:696:92E6 (talk) 14:40, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Status at Oxford
As found this morning, the entry stated, “In 1963, Trungpa Rinpoche sailed to England on a P&O liner to study at St Anthony’s (sic) College, Oxford.” Three citations were given: 1) Born in Tibet, (p. 252 of later editions) which does not refer to St Antony’s, nor indeed to any other Unniversity college at all. It is not relevant. 2) The Buddhist Handbook, John Snelling, 2011, which states, “In 1963, Trungpa Rinpoche sailed to England on a P&O liner to study at St Anthony’s College, Oxford.” This are exactly the words from the Wikipedia article. As John Snelling died in 1992, this would be the source for the words in the article. No further reference or citation is given, which is not surprising, as it is a small point which at the time would have seemed uncontroversial. The misspelling of the college name, now corrected, strongly suggests that it was drawn from the general body of Trungpa’s hagiography. It therefore, unfortunately, is without evidential value. 3) Nicholls, C., 2000, The History of St Antony’s College, Oxford, 1950–2000, p.83. “Driver"s presence brought the exotic figure of Chogyam Trungpa, a refugee Tibetan master, to the college as a member of Common Room." One might wonder what that is. Nothing is currently on St Antony’s site about the status of "member of Common Room", and it may not exist at St Antony's these days, but the assertion is not unbelievable. See eg. https://www.stx.ox.ac.uk/membership-of-common-room, or https://www.wolfson.ox.ac.uk/become-member-common-room for this status at other colleges at present. Priveleges at the second one (Wolfson) are: use of the library, sports facilities, college punts, dining facilities, use of the common room including tea and coffee, to ride on the college minibus and to apply for college accommodation including guest rooms. In brief, it is an official but entirely non-academic friendly association with the college on a largely social level used, for example, for spouses and partners (SaPs, I suppose) of actual college members. I therefore propose that the first two citations is moved to correctly refer to the traves to England, that the second reference is removed, and that the wording of the sentence is changed from “He later said that he attended” to “and was granted "common room" access to”, as there is no citation given to show that "attendance" was Trungpa’s own claim, has most likely again been drawn from the general body of Trungpa’s hagiography. Alex D Wilding (talk) 12:24, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Chögyam Trungpa


text:
Charles H. Kraft

Charles H. Kraft (b. 1932 in Connecticut) is an American anthropologist, linguist, evangelical Christian speaker, and Professor Emeritus of Anthropology and Intercultural Communication in the School of Intercultural Studies at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, California, where he taught primarily in the school's spiritual-dynamics concentration. In the domain of religion, his work since the early 1980s has focused on inner healing and spiritual warfare. He joined Fuller's faculty in 1969. In the 1950s he served as a Brethren missionary in northern Nigeria. He has served as a professor of African languages at Michigan State University and UCLA, and taught anthropology part-time at Biola University. He holds a BA from Wheaton College, a BD from Ashland Theological Seminary, and a PhD from the Hartford Seminary Foundation, titled "A Study Of Hausa Syntax".

In 1982, with fellow Fuller missions professor Peter Wagner, Kraft became an early proponent of the teaching and ministry models of John Wimber, and helped popularize the "Third Wave of the Holy Spirit", which Wimber's Vineyard Movement represented.

Main interests
Kraft writes and teaches about biblical Christianity and culture (including contextualization), communicating biblical Christianity, anthropology and Christianity, cross-cultural Christian theology, worldview, spiritual warfare, inner healing, generational curses, and Anti-Masonry. In addition to his work at Fuller, Kraft is the president and founder of Deep Healing Ministries, a deliverance ministry, and conducts seminars and exorcisms around the world. He lives in California with his wife. He serves as the Vice-President of Hearts Set Free Ministries, where he conducts seminars on spiritual warfare, healing, and deliverance.

His most influential and controversial work is Christianity in Culture (1979). He proposed an approach to contextualization using the "dynamic equivalence" method of Bible translation as a model to describe how Christianity itself must be translated into a culture by adopting new forms that communicate biblical meanings.

He has taught and ministered in Nigeria, Korea, Thailand, Papua New Guinea, Australia, India, Denmark, Norway, England, Holland, New Zealand, South Africa, Canada, Japan, Switzerland, and Germany.

Selected works
Kraft's published books include:
 * Revised 2005
 * Revised 2005
 * Revised 2005
 * Revised 2005
 * Revised 2005
 * Revised 2005
 * Revised 2005
 * Revised 2005
 * Revised 2005
 * Revised 2005
 * Revised 2005
 * Revised 2005
 * Revised 2005
 * Revised 2005
 * Revised 2005
 * Revised 2005
 * Revised 2005
 * Revised 2005
 * Revised 2005

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Charles H. Kraft


text:
Category:English Civil War

The English Civil War was the largest part of the interlocking Wars of the Three Kingdoms which began with the Bishops' Wars in Scotland and developed to involve Ireland and England.

title: Category:English Civil War


text:
Baboucarr-Blaise Jagne

Baboucarr-Blaise Ismaila Jagne (born February 11, 1955) was the foreign minister of the Gambia from 1995 until 1997 and from August 30, 2001, until October 14 2004. He was the Gambian Permanent Representative to the United Nations from 1998 to 2001, and was President of the United Nations Security Council in June 1999.

title: Baboucarr-Blaise Jagne


text:
Marcel Ranjeva

General Marcel Razanakombana Ranjeva (born 15 January 1944 ) is a Malagasy politician. He was the Minister of Defense in the government of Madagascar under President Didier Ratsiraka until he resigned on March 8, 2002, and pledged his support to Marc Ravalomanana, the opposition presidential candidate who claimed to have won the December 2001 presidential election. Ravalomanana appointed Ranjeva as Minister of Foreign Affairs in May 2002, and he remained Foreign Minister until Ravalomanana's ouster in March 2009. He was succeeded by Ny Hasina Andriamanjato on March 23, 2009; he was present for the ceremony transferring control of the ministry and wished Andriamanjato luck.

title: Marcel Ranjeva


text:
Talk:Reflection (physics)

Phase inversion
Is this right: "Depending on the nature of the interface, i.e., dielectric-conductor or dielectric-dielectric, the phase of the reflected wave may or may not be inverted."? I thought the phase inversion of reflected light depended on the relative refractive index of the interfacing materials. Maybe both are right, but probably the article should be more clear. --Chinasaur 05:42, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The following phase should be the other way round (if not much mistakening): "When light reflects off a material denser (with higher refractive index) than the external medium, it undergoes a phase inversion. In contrast, a less dense, lower refractive index material will reflect light in phase". Kindly verify so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2149:8294:B400:1FC:FCF6:E476:1974 (talk) 07:25, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
 * It is correct, but poorly written. We actually have an article on this topic.--Srleffler (talk) 15:32, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Question: Reflection vs Refraction
One thing that this article doesn't explain is why a greater angle of incidents results in more reflection and less refraction. A more fundamental question is, "why does light reflect at all?" If the article answered that question, it might be more obvious how light could be partially reflected and partially refracted in some cases. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.206.44.11 (talk • contribs) 18:49, 8 June 2007

Plus the rules of refraction says that transparent refractive substances bend light toward the normal (perpendicular) direction. But I don't see how that can allow an incidence of 180 degree reflection with a single encounter.WFPM (talk) 03:31, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

 * I don't understand your question. Note though that light only bends toward the normal if it is entering a medium with higher refractive index. If light is passing into a medium with lower refractive index, it bends away from the normal. In either case, if light is incident along the normal axis, it doesn't bend at all.--Srleffler (talk) 05:33, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm trying to understand a 180 degree of reflection. Normal glass mirrors would bend the light toward the normal by refraction. but then as you approach a perpendicular direction from the mirror, you get a 180 degree reflection. so how does the reflective material turn the signal around 180 degrees in direction? Can you do that with 1 encounter? or does it take 2?WFPM (talk) 04:03, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I think you are confused; I don't understand what you are thinking. You can certainly reflect something straight back with a single encounter. Perhaps it helps to consider a polished piece of flat metal instead of a glass mirror. Light that is incident along the normal reflects straight back. Light that is incident at an angle reflects with an equal and opposite angle from the normal.

 * A typical household mirror with a reflective coating on the back side of a piece of glass is a little more complicated. When light enters the glass it is bent toward the normal unless it is already along the normal, in which case it is not bent. The light reflects from the reflective backing with an equal and opposite angle. When the reflected light leaves the glass it bends away from the normal since it is moving from a high index medium to a lower index one. The bends when entering and leaving the glass exactly compensate for one another, so that light reflecting from a glass mirror makes the same angle as light reflecting from a bare piece of polished metal.

 * Does this help??

 * Or are you just getting confused by the numbers: in terms of the law of reflection, if a beam is normally incident the angle of reflection is actually 0°, not 180°.--Srleffler (talk) 17:43, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm thinking about a Perpendicular beam coming up to an atom of silver and trying to figure out how the beam is (reflected?) back 180 degrees, which doesn't sound practical, or whether it is reflected 90 degrees by 1 encounter and another 90 degrees by a 2nd encounter. In refraction, the deflection is usually an increased bending of the path around the atom, which increases as the frequency (Stress?)increases. But its hard to understand the mechanics of 180 degree reflection. Or should I say kinematics?WFPM (talk) 01:15, 7 September 2010 (UTC) If we said that the beam went all the way around the atom of silver and then came back out in a perpendicular direction, we might have an explanation for 180 degree reflection. But then we would have a hard time explaining the process of refraction.WFPM (talk) 01:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

 * I see. Your problem is that you are thinking of a single atom of silver. Specular reflection is a collective effect. It requires many atoms to produce it. Snell's law type refraction is too. As the article puts it, "light waves incident on a material induce small oscillations of polarisation in the individual atoms, causing each atom to radiate a weak secondary wave (in all directions like a dipole antenna)." These weak secondary waves are in phase with one another. If the incident light is propagating in a single direction (e.g. a plane wave), the secondary waves interfere with each other and with the incident wave such that the incident wave is extinguished and in fact light is radiated in only two directions: the refracted direction predicted by Snell's Law and the reflected direction predicted by the Law of Reflection. In these two directions there is constructive interference between the radiation from the atoms and the incident beam.--Srleffler (talk) 03:12, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, I appreciate your attention and consideration of my problem, and with regard to it I have noted that the process of (double) specular reflection is able to explain all of what I see in a corner mirror except the narrow line dividing the left side of the reflection from the right, in the exact location where we need to have this 180 degrees of single reflection. And so I guess I'm spoiled but I hate to have to adopt a plane wave absorption and reradiation theory to explain that small portion of the reflection image. And so I was looking for a way of reflection that would explain that small part by a process of redirection of the light, rather than an absorption and re-emission of it.WFPM (talk) 17:04, 11 September 2010 (UTC) I guess that what I have left out of my concept is your theory that all the redirected incident light is reflected by a process of absorption and re-emission, even the double reflected light. So thank you.WFPM (talk) 17:24, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

And while we're on the subject matter of reflection and refraction I'd like to ask you if your theory of absorption and re-emission is such as to explain the "first atom slowdown, last atom speed back up" problem that I have with the theory of refraction. Can you use this to explain how a light beam through a diamond, for instance, is able to regain its speed of propagation after it leaves the medium of the diamond and re-enters the faster medium.WFPM (talk) 17:34, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

 * Yes, but a detailed explanation of that is too involved for this talk page. Fundamentally, the light never actually slows down. The light that leaves the diamond is not the same light that entered.--Srleffler (talk) 19:32, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes that was the alternative, that maybe the path got longer (and zig-zagged?) But you're not sounding like absorption and re-emission. So do you have an explanatory link?WFPM (talk) 23:08, 12 September 2010 (UTC). And I appreciate your explanation problem, because I'm trying to understand Feynman's QED, and not having much luck there either. Is that your reference re this matter?WFPM (talk) 21:28, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

QM reflection
A quantum mechanical description of reflection would be nice if someone had the ability to explain it, since this article doesn't reveal the reason for which light is actually reflected from a surface.

 * Seconded! There must be a reasonable/logical explanation for reflection in terms of QM.  As it is, the article just refers us to a Feynman book. For an article of high importance on a very common subject, someone with the knowledge needs to get this part up to scratch.  I seem to remember Feynman saying something about it in these lectures... [url]http://vega.org.uk/video/subseries/8[/url] but I can't remember if he address QM reflection specifically. David 218.143.30.1 (talk) 05:15, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree, but a regurgitation of Feynman's QED lectures just wouldn't do, as however great his explainations were, he did not go into the mechanism (microscopically) of reflection, only assumed that it happeded to explain where the light would reflect to. We don't want any stone-counting Mayans on Wikipedia! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.51.194.215 (talk) 08:29, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Easily Amused
"all non-shiny objects that are not black."

It's accurate; I just thought it sounded... amusing, probably because of the use of the word "shiny." Not going to edit to "all objects that do not shine and are not black" because that's a tad verbose and there's no real point. Just throwing that out there. --165.134.132.122 22:26, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Images
I have some photographs on my userpage of the famous curved, reflective sculpture Cloud Gate that could be illustrative. Spikebrennan 17:30, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

A little history?
I was thinking a little history could be added to this article such as the Euclid's contributions to the field (is his the earliest known studies? Who are the other people noted for their theories on reflection?) and maybe links to and expansion of the term Catoptrics. 69.72.93.142 14:11, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Quantum interpretation
Can someone provide a source for the information provided in this section? Particularly the first paragraph. Thanks!

What about absorption?
If "part of the light is reflected and the remainder is refracted", then I guess a black surface does not absorb light. Does it turn all the light into non-visible electromagnetic radiation? (I doubt it). We all know that a black material heats up more quickly than a white material when exposed to solar lignt. Where does that thermal energy come from? Just from absorbed infrared or ultravioolet radiation? ...

The paragraph about the quantic interpretation says that photons are sometimes absorbed. Do you mean that there are some cases in which the light does not produce heat when it strikes an opaque object, or passes through a transparent medium such as the air or water? Cases in which the light is completely "cold"?

In my opinion, these are questions that one should be able to answer after reading this article, but the article is not clear enough with respect to this topic. I am not an expert in optics, I just wanted to give to the experts an advice for improving the article. Regards, Paolo.dL (talk) 22:26, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Diffuse->specular
I am trying to understand what happens when a surface gets smoother and smoother e.g., when it is polished, but the same idea applies to sound waves, I am sure. What happens to a surface's reflections as it gets smoother? A metal surface with a small-enough pattern of saw-toothed ridges will reflect sound crisply; if you make the pattern small enough, I think you will even get nice sharp specular reflection of light. But how small do they have to be to appear smooth acoustically? Optically? I assume it will be a function of wavelength... —Ben FrantzDale (talk) 00:05, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

But why?
Reflection is described in detail in the article, via laws of reflection, Maxwell's equations, etc., but what I don't see is the reason that reflection occurs.

Maybe I just missed it. But otherwise, I think this article would be distinctly enhanced by an explanation of why reflection occurs. In other words, a ray of light strikes a certain medium. There is something special about that medium -- in part its extreme smoothess, of course -- that causes the light to follow the laws of reflection. Can someone enlighten us about why this happens? This should include an explanation of why some materials make better mirrors than others.

Note: One is tempted to say it's just like a ball bouncing off a hard surface. But for one thing, a photon is much smaller than an atom, and from the point of view of the photon I would guess that what appears to us as a very smooth surface would be quite irregular -- after all, the photon could strike an atom at a relatively small or large distance from its nucleus.Daqu (talk) 07:42, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

 * Although Compton scattering of photons can occur, classical reflection and refraction of electromagnetic radiation are explained by examining its behaviour as a wave, so there's no analogy with a ball. Electromagnetic radiation has both an alternating electric and an alternating magnetic field. These fields interact with the electrons in the medium they are passing through or into. The effect of this interaction on a macroscopic scale can be deduced from Maxwell's equations and - in the particular case of moving into a different medium - the Fresnel equations as noted in the article. As you can see, the "why" has not got much to do with smoothness, it's a result of the way a wave behaves in a transmittive medium. Obviously a non-smooth boundary between media allows multiple angles of reflection and refraction, allowing dispersion of the wave in all directions, which is why you don't get a clear reflection from a rough surface. --RexxS (talk) 04:32, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

But photons aren't only waves, so surely Maxwell's equations can't cover it all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.51.194.215 (talk) 08:33, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * See Correspondence principle. Maxwell's equations are just fine.--Srleffler (talk) 23:21, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Complementarity (physics) is also relevant—there is little point in trying to gain an intuitive understanding of a wave-like property of light using a particle-like model.--Srleffler (talk) 23:33, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Miraged reflection
Removed from the article:

"On extremely rare occasions a reflection might get miraged, in other words reflection might get refracted. In the process reflection get distorted and magnified. The miraged reflection might show some properties of a reflected object, which cannot be seen well neither in the real object itself nor in the usual reflection of an object. For example, a mirafe of sun glitter clearly shows upper green and lower red rims that the reflected object (the sun) has.

A miraged reflection makes the conditions very complex because it creates an interface between not only two different media, as a reflection does, but at least three different media."

I have removed this text and the associated image because:
 * the analysis of the image is original research, which is not permitted.
 * the text is not supported by a citation to a reliable source as required by Verifiability.
 * the content is off-topic for this article. There are reflections, and there are mirages. It's not surprising that one can have a mirage of a reflection, but this isn't really a distinct effect, and doesn't really merit a section in the reflection article. Even if it were on-topic, it certainly wouldn't merit placement above the sections on "other types of reflection".
 * the image, while interesting, is not technically well-suited to Wikipedia. The features of interest are hard to discern, and the green and red rims described in the text are only visible if the full resolution image is loaded and zoomed in (~4× on my monitor).--Srleffler (talk) 04:58, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * May I please ask what features of interest are hard to discern? The mirage, sun glitter? Even green upper edge is seen in thumbnail.User:Srleffler made it sound like it is very common to see a mirage of reflection The user writes:"It's not surprising that one can have a mirage of a reflection". In reality the mirage like this one is extrimly rare and is very much surprising, and IMO people, who lost the ablility to get surprised would never discover anything new. I am also not sure what original research the user is talking about. I took an image of a phenomenon that I saw with my own eyes. What is really in question in this image, sun glitter, mirage, green rim? I believe both sun glitter, mirage, green rim/flash were recearched long time ago and proven to be exist.IMO the image is good enoug and interesting enough, and on-topic enough to be in the article. We could leave alone (do not talk about green and red edges, if it is confusing), but I believe it is a great image to talk about reflection versus refraction.After all this image depicts one of a very few situations, which show both reflection and refraction together.--Mbz1 (talk) 15:55, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The fata morgana is, to the untrained eye, just an indistinct blur across the top of the photo. The colored edges are also not obvious. To understand what one sees in the image, one needs a more detailed understanding of atmospheric refraction than we should expect of readers of this article, nor should this article explain those phenomena in enough detail to make the image interpretable, because that explanation is off-topic. It would be fine for the article on fata morgana, but is not appropriate here. Basically, the image doesn't "say" much about reflection, but it does say something significant about fata morgana mirages.--Srleffler (talk) 17:25, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Creating a vapor reflective surface [?]
The article makes clear that a reflective surface may be solid "mirror" or liquid "water".

I'm curious, though, as to whether it is possible to create a reflective surface with an inert gas, such as argon. And if so, how would one go about doing such? Pine (talk) 19:32, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

 * Gasses can reflect, if there is a transition in index of refraction. It's hard to get a large, sharp change in index with gasses, though. This isn't the right place to ask this kind of question. Article talk pages are for discussion related to improving the article. You want the Science reference desk.--Srleffler (talk) 01:09, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Third Law of Reflection?
I am wondering if the third law of reflection, light paths are reversible, should be added to the article? It is sort of important to reflection that people know of that and I do believe that it is a law of reflection. Mcfar54 (talk) 09:31, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Can you cite a source that refers to this as a "law of reflection"?--Srleffler (talk) 04:18, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Does the speed of the reflecting surface make any difference?
If the mirror or reflective surface is moving at very high speed, in the direction of its own plane, then do the angles of incidence and reflection still equal each other? Is the frequency of the reflected light the same as that of the incident light? Has this senario been tested either experimentally or via the equations? Norman Sheldon (talk) 14:52, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I guess that if we describe this from the point of view of the reflective surface reference frame, we will see a (Doppler-shifted) light coming from a moving source, that will be reflected by the non-moving surface in the usual way, with equal incidence and reflection angles and with no shift in frequency. --GianniG46 (talk) 21:56, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

And if we describe it from the point of view where the source is at rest and the reflective surface is moving, please? Norman Sheldon (talk) 18:44, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

 * This isn't really the right place for this. Article talk pages are for discussions related to improving the article, not for general questions. The right place to ask a question like this is at the Science Reference Desk. If you post your question there, I'm sure you will get some enthusiastic discussion of it. It's an interesting question.--Srleffler (talk) 20:12, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

 * I fully agree with Srleffler, and, moreover, your questions concern relativity, rather than optics. Anyway, just to avoid leaving matters pending, I suppose that the Lorentz transformations would affect in the same way the incident and reflection angles, which make the same angle (in absolute value) with relative velocity, so the two angles will stay equal, while the reflective properties of the surface will be "Doppler-shifted", if they depend on wavelenght. --GianniG46 (talk) 08:45, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Suggested merge
Is there anything at Abnormal reflection that's worth merging to this article? That article has no content and looking at its references suggests that it's not a unique physical phenomenon but rather is a pair of words describing any observations of anomolous reflection effects. --Wtshymanski (talk) 22:02, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * A short section here discussing abnormal reflection might be a better solution than a separate article covering a variety of disparate phenomena.--Srleffler (talk) 00:04, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, but I'm at a loss to find something to merge; I suppose one could summarize the "abnormal reflections" in the several items referenced, but there doesn't seem to be any unity of those publications as they are describing different effects. --Wtshymanski (talk) 03:13, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Total Internal Reflection
In the section about total internal reflection, shouldn't the example of X-ray actually be "Total external reflection"? --Cyferz (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:39, 16 February 2012 (UTC).

General Comments
This physics article presents itself as a general discussion of the physical phenomenon of reflection. The two opening paragraphs give examples of reflection that include sound waves, water waves, electromagnetic waves, and seismic waves. But what follows is a discussion almost exclusively limited to the reflection of visible light, and which includes no examination of the broader principle of reflection as a consequence of the behavior of waves as they encounter constraints on their motion.

The article states, "Reflection is the change in direction of a wavefront at an interface between two different media so that the wavefront returns into the medium from which it originated." This statement can be true, but a change of media is not necessary for reflection unless air at different temperatures or water of varying depth is considered different media. Nowhere in the article is it pointed out that the characteristic that results in reflection and refraction is the change (or rate of change) in propagation speed (or phase velocity) of the wave in the medium.

The "Mechanism" section goes into a level of detail that could mislead the reader into thinking that Maxwell's equations are fundamental to an understanding of wave reflection. It's a bit like using a description of gravity and the properties of water to explain reflection in ocean waves. The truly remarkable thing, and something this article manages to miss, is that the reflection of light as it encounters changes in refractive index, and the reflection of ocean waves that encounter changes in depth are really two manifestations of the same thing. Maxwell's equations do not explain reflection in any meaningful way. Rather, they explain why electromagnetic waves obey the same laws as other kinds of waves. --Alt Livingston (talk) 21:55, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

 * These are very good points. If you are so inclined, feel free to try changing the article to present the topic in a more general way.--Srleffler (talk) 02:02, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Paddle Image
Look at the reflection on the paddle -- it is obviously a reflection of the situation in the sky, so this is not a double reflection. 190.141.37.103 (talk) 03:36, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Look again. The image in the water, which is a reflection of the sky, is inverted. If the image in the paddle were a direct image it would be inverted too. It isn't, because it is a reflected image of the reflection off of the water. --Srleffler (talk) 03:47, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

 * Perhaps the paddle is concave, then the reflection doesn't have to be inverted. —Kri (talk) 17:47, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The paddle would have to be convex. The trees and sun are too far from the paddle to form an upright image, if the paddle is concave. See Curved mirror. The image does appear to be reduced in size, but it could be either an inverted double reflection or an upright direct reflection.--Srleffler (talk) 00:50, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

 * What are you talking about? You can't invert reflected in a mirror by making the mirror convex, but you can invert the image by making the mirror concave. The article you linked to contains several images, how could I possibly know which one of them you are referring to? On the other hand, all photographs in the article are of convex mirrors, and in none of those has the image that is reflected been inverted. Are you sure you didn't mix up convex and concave?

 * Furthermore, it can't be too far to a reflected object for it to be inverted in a concave mirror; on the other hand the reflected object can be too close to the mirror (closer than the focal point) to be inverted, but that would not be the case here since, as you say, the trees and sun are far away from the paddle. —Kri (talk) 11:24, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I wasn't referring to any of the images in that article, but rather the text, which explains under what conditions curved mirrors form upright or inverted images. Anyway, we seem to agree about when one gets an upright or an inverted image from a given type of mirror, but one of us is misunderstanding the other about the application to the image in this article. The anonymous poster above suggested that the reflection in the paddle is a direct reflection of the sky, not a reflection of the image reflected in the water. The image reflected off of the water is upside-down. The image reflected off of the paddle is rightside-up. If the latter is a direct reflection of the sky, then the paddle is forming an upright image of the sky, which is possible only if the paddle is convex. I'm not sure what you have in mind or where you disagree with this (if you do).--Srleffler (talk) 11:44, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
 * On second thought, I think you are right. I was confused by the fact that the reflection in the water is upside-down, but it is not an "inverted" image in the optics sense (a plane mirror forms upright images). --Srleffler (talk) 03:40, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree; it doesn't look like a double-reflection to me. It looks like the paddle is reflecting the sun directly. Even if somehow this is not the case, I suggest a less ambiguous image. 174.103.118.211 (talk) 20:56, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Bragg Reflection
Bragg Reflection is either a different type/mechanism of reflection or an interesting special case of one - or just a different level of abstraction.

I've been studying it to understand play-of-color in precious opal - including contra-luz opal -- but the Braggs's discovery was for/with X-Rays.

It seems like this article could benefit a lot by including info on that somewhere. PMH232 (talk) 18:12, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Status March 2017
This is among the worst technical articles I've had the misfortune to find on Wikipedia. Apparently, at some point it included some actual MODERN physics, but if so, it has been removed. (I came to this article expecting to find, at least, a reference to the quantum mechanics behind the 17th Century geometric optical "science". Nothing.) The first sentence insists that reflection must be defined in the optical media in which the "wavefront" travels. Really? OPTICAL media?? Wrong. In the 2nd paragraph, we learn "many" types of EMR reflect. Really? Not "all" but "many"? Rubbish. In the next paragraph we read:"In specular reflection the phase of the reflected waves depends on the choice of the origin of coordinates, but the relative phase between s and p (TE and TM) polarizations is fixed by the properties of the media and of the interface between them." Of course, no explanation, not even a definition, of s, p, TE, and TM is provided. GARBAGE. (Of course, if a reader has to spend 20 minutes somewhere else learning what a "phase" is, nevermind a "wavefront". The next paragraph informs us that a mirror is a model for specular light reflection. A model, not an example, but a model. Brilliant. I could go on, and on, and on, but if anybody thinks this article is useful, perhaps they could spend some time cleaning it up, personally, I think it is so bad that it is beyond redemption.40.142.182.216 (talk) 16:20, 20 March 2017 (UTC) The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons you might want to). --Srleffler (talk) 01:28, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Information.svg Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the edit this page link at the top.

The formation of image
Bc — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.231.239.109 (talk) 08:37, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

"Reflection (physics" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Reflection_(physics&redirect=no Reflection (physics] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Utopes (talk / cont) 18:28, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Reflection (physics)