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Talk:Kira Yamato

Brother of Canard Pars and Parents - clarification needed
Either Canard Pars and Kira Yamato ARE DEFINITELY brothers; OR Ulen Hibiki and Via Hibiki ARE POSSIBLY parents. You can't have ambiguity with the brothers relationship and then they a definite from the same parents relationship at the same time. By definition, same parents = siblings (half or full or step another topic). If they have the same parents, then they ARE brothers. If that is not confirmed, then it should be changed that they POSSIBLY have the same parents. Therefore, either the parents needs to be changed in the Canard Pars and/or the Kira Yamato entry, or the brother relationship needs to be changed in the Canard Pars and Kira Yamato entry. But I need someone whom have read the Manga and watched the Anime to confirm this to give the appropriate answer. Akosygin 03:54, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I have read manga and watched the anime. I would say it is hard to say Kira and Canard are or aren't 100% Brother and Ulen and Hibiki are possibly Parents of them. In short, both of them have their genetic modified when they are in zygote form (or such), and both of them was in artificial womb to prevent harming environtment changing their genetic. CMIIW . Anyway, Via Hibiki refers to them as her children, when quarelling with Ulen, because too many who failed. Draconins 05:25, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Also in eps 45 where Hibiki was talking about his little project it seemed to me that he was only trying to make is own children in to Ultimate Coordinator. But actually the interseting question is how many time did he fail. With the flash back you saw a number that was over 5000, would that mean he failed so many times.

 * I'm removing Canard as a possible brother. No, not right now, but I'm giving everyone a heads up. The entire speculation about the blood relationship comes from a very ambiguous comment from Via. Now, we know she was a seemingly kind and caring woman, so it wouldn't be too odd if she was referring to the entire batch of lab-rat wombs as "our". But that's also speculation.

 * Now, for a bit more solid arguments: Uzumi knew everything about Kira's past, enough to secure and hide the twins, but he never even mentions Canard. Via's confrontation with Ulen happens after his decision to use Kira as a test subject, there's no mention of any children of hers used a year ago. There's a picture of Kira and Cagalli, but none of Canard among the Hibiki's possessions. In general, there's never being any solid hint towards there being a direct blood relation between Canard and Kira/Cagalli. It's far-off speculation. And considering Gundam "unconfirmed hints" tend to be pretty much freaking obvious ("Prayer: I was cloned from a certain EAF pilot" [Moebius Zero flies in the background]), I can't see enough reason to consider this any more than fanfiction material.

 * That's the deal. Comments? Ephyon 04:13, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Merge
Major characters should not be merged. Iceberg3k 03:03, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * I recently restructured the Mobile Suit Gundam SEED, Mobile Suit Gundam SEED Destiny pages, along with the Cosmic Era Mobile Units, Battleships and Spacecraft of the Cosmic Era, Cosmic Era list of characters pages. I think a good compromise is a Characters page containing all the main names, with a brief description. These names should link to additional personal pages only where there is enough info to dedicate an entire page to a character, which IS the case here. The same should be done for the mobile suits and for the ships: a listing page with brief descriptions and individual pages where necessary. --IgorTrieste 10:55, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Recitation etc.
I don't want to hurt the feelings of the responsible editors, but who the bloody hell thought it reasonable to recount the minute details of the battles of the last episodes? It's a bloody encyclopedia, not a documentary!

IMNSHO, the last couple of paragraphes could be severely shortened down to two paragraphs without losing any crucial information whatsoever:
 * After obtaining Strike Freedom, Kira returns to Orb by dropping in from orbit, accompanied by Lacus Clyne in Infinite Justice. He intervenes in the battle taking place at Orb, saving Cagalli from being killed by Shinn Asuka. The latter is forced to withdraw from the battlefield for resupplies, which leaves Kira to helping with the defense.
 * When the resupplied Destiny and Legend enter battle again, he is almost killed at the hands of the ZAFT pilots, but is saved by the injured Athrun Zala.

That's it. This article isn't "retell the whole arc of SEED Destiny involving Kira", it's a encyclopedial article about a character. Or, in more understandable terms: it's not a biography, but a fluffy curriculum vitae.

I haven't got the heart to shorten the article by such a significant amount; I'd appreciate if the original author of those paragraphs (who also has a tick for writing from a point of view perspective) would understand his error and correct his own mistake. -- towo 00:25, August 23, 2005 (UTC) IMHO, rather than shorten the paragraph it is better for using sub-section. As the short paragraph above can make ambiguity about the matter for the ones who never actually seen corresponding anime episode or manga chapter. The ambiguity (IMHO): Who the ZAFT pilots? The Cannon fodder ^^? Is he is really almost killed (he may only take severe damage, who know? Remember Muu's case?)? And more of these, Kira outperform Shinn in one to one battle in the first part (the destiny sword even get caught and destiny may be killed if Kira using the abdomen cannon) Not to mention Shinn in second part also almost shot by the double beam rifle if not intervened with legend.152.118.24.10 05:48, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Feel free to shorten it. I watch this article, and it definetly needs it. I just haven't taken time to shorten. Dark glaive 22:25, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Uh, I have putting sub-sections on history section. Hope you all like it. ^^ Draconins 06:31, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

About Kira being the culprit of Shinn's family death
After viewing phase One of Destiny many times, I dont see how Freedom's HiMAT was taken as the direct culprit of Shinn's family deaths. Its Oficial (i.e. its in the official site) or its just fan information? Even then, at that particular episode of SEED, Freedom was fighting against OMNI/EAF new MS, specially Forbidden,who could deflect incoming beam attacks, so I dont really see Kira being directly blamed for their deaths, unless its a fact said in the official site...
 * I would say so, i notice some edit war a long time ago regarding this matter, anyway there is no proof (at least for me) that Kira DIRECTLY kill them, but I agree if you say INDIRECTLY as wars alyways make victims, don't they?152.118.24.10 05:35, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Nature of the relationship between Lacus and Kira
Do we need such section? As I saw it is mostly a speculation (although based on facts)? Draconins 02:39, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a topic worth mentioning, it is true that there are 2 such views towards the relationship. It could perhaps do with some cleanup to make it look more neutral. It's also in the section for Lacus.--71.12.221.109 18:39, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it's worth having to a degree. Discussion of their relationship (one which seems important to both of them) is worth having since they're not presented within the story as typical googly eyed lovers. What isn't needed is comments about fans hoping we'll see them kiss or get married, hence why I edited that out in both Kira and Lacus' pages. --HellCat86 22:48, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Ranks of Kira Yamato
I am currently confused about Kira Yamato's rank in Orb Union. Anyone can explain that? Or maybe we can have page about ranks' insignia in Orb Union (and also EA)? AFAIK, Orb Union rank is based on Army rank of old Japan Empire, and their general only have 3 levels (Major General, Liutenant General, and General). AFAIK too, The Japan Empire Naval Rank has (Commodore, Rear Admiral, Vice Admiral, Admiral. ). So IMHO, Kira Yamato final rank is General. Draconins 14:57, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

You can go here for the ranks Orb Military Ranks. Neovu79

Thanks, I already found that page, but forgot to reply here.... Thanks anyway... Draconins 03:54, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm atempting to find a much better picture of Kira in his General/Admiral Orb uniform. For now, it's better to leave the title rank associated with the current picture out. Neovu79 17:02, 12 June 2006 (EST)

Does anybody object to adding Commander, Orb Space Fleet under Kira's Rank/Position? Neovu79 23:51, 11 June 2006 (EST)

 * Instead of the title, Commander of Orb Space Fleet I decided to go with a traditional military title, Commander, Orb Space Fleet. It's only a small change, bit tradition is tradition. :) Neovu79 00:01, 12 June 2006 (EST)

 * Well, tradition seems to disagree with you. ^_^ Commander is not used in this context, instead it should be said Commanding Officer, ORB Space Fleet. He still seems awkward in this position, anyway. Khathi 02:07, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

 * what makes him CO/COS of the fleet? orb space fleet has it's own chain of command. archangel seem to operate as a seperate service, since it have action in both space and earth; it is like the marines has seperate COS from the navy. they can't order each other's forces around, only the commander-in-chief can do that. Akinkhoo (talk) 23:04, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Is Kira a Newtype?
With Kira's ability to sense other known Newtypes and the ability to utilize the DRAGOON system, would the rest of you consider Kira as a Newtype? Neovu79 01:25, 13 June 2006 (EST)
 * Not until it is officially stated. - Plau 12:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I consider Kira is newtype or "newtype-like". Why I said newtype-like ? Because newtype, AFAIK, never stated in CE episodes Draconins 08:12, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

There have been a few scenes to indicate that Kira might be developing Newtype abilities, like those of Mu La Flaga and Rau Le Creuset. However, Fllay's death scene is not one of those. It was directly stated by director Mitsuo Fukuda that Kira didn't see Fllay or hear anything that she said to him in that scene, and as much as some fans don't like to accept what Fukuda says, he is the director. Also, if you watch the scene carefully, you'll notice that Kira never reacts to the appearance of Fllay's spirit, nor are any the things he says in the scene actually responses to Fllay's lines. 68.47.175.214 00:56, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Can you provide source for this? 152.118.24.10 05:29, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Just so we won't start the edit war I want to clarify something. To operate older generations of DRAGOON system or gunbarrels one indeed should be a Newtype. But spatial awareness itself isn't a some arkane ability tht only Newtypes have. It's simply the ability to track what's going around you -- ANYONE have it. Newtypes have it as well, they just much much better at it -- so they can say exactly where would be that car you've just seen speeding past your left shoulder. Oldtype would just say "It's somewhere behind", while Newtype will point its exact position and speed vector. --219.51.104.117 10:19, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

 * The answer is very simple, there are no newtypes in the CE timeline, none.
 * Therefore, Kira is not a newtype, nor Mu, nor anyone that are CE characters.
 * Unless anyone can provide source, official source, stating there are newtypes in the CE timeline, we are pretty sure about Kira not being a newtype at all.
 * For further explanation, I have listed more logical proof in the newtype article due to recent vandalism act on adding unsourced and original research material on all the pages regarding CE characters with high spacial awareness. MythSearcher 05:59, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

 * from the interview whit Fukuda (in 2003):
 * question: Are Mwu and Raww Newtypes?
 * answer: Both are the last remaining Newtypes. They were the last Newtypes in the world so I wanted to write a story where non-Newtype people try to solve the problem.

 * in the CE universe when two newtypes are close to each other at An awakened momentor or when they go "berserk" the "newtype-flash" is shown...and if I remember correctly kira had one in episode 39. and the reason why he is a newtypes has probably something to do with the ultimate coordinator project. Kaito-kid 13:13, 04 March 2007 (UTC)

BIAS
First, Why everyone put thier hands for making this article the best ever, everyday there are a new changes, But in other articles specially Shinn Asuka article biases unlimited and the way of writing is from the OWN POV not NPOV, And if you want to add something it will be deleted in the same time why is that, Is this web for OWN OPINIONS or the NPOV. COULD ANYONE HELP ME.
 * Hello, please calm down. Please assume good faith, and don't forget to sign your post. From my perspective, I work on one article until it is enough, then the next so I thought the others may do same as me. Draconins 05:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

You need to clean up the story and what really happen to the story the important one not nonsense like trivia and story you so immature writer.Is look bias is favorable to shinn,athrun and kira story.Athrun became a hero because of kira he is nothing for kira you need not to be a showy.Except your athrun the good looking fighter of peace and shinn the god and the jesus yamato fans.You not need to clean-up the viewer will judge that.They will not visit your site.Ronald23

Cleanup Tag?
Err, I just notice that someone put the cleanup tags. Any comment or change request? I don't understand what should I do, since the cleanup requested per cleanup tag, in my humble opinion, is not needed. I really don't get what points should be cleaned. Draconins 07:40, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I added the cleanup tags, and they're both relevant. This article doesn't summarize the plot of SEED; it borders on a SEED novelization. This needs to be dramatically reduced.

 * Likewise, this article makes it nearly impossible to verify any claim made here. This needs to be rewritten from an out-of-universe perspective, per WP:WAF. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 10:21, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

About the Kira Yamato page
What needs to be edited/removed out of Kira's page? I visit the page daily to make sure there's nothing missing.

 * Hohoho, You are visiting this page daily and you didn't found anything anything anything at all, Well I found that little biased statement:
 * In the Aftermath:
 * Kira's accomplishments in both Bloody Valentine Wars proved that he is one of if not the most skilled mobile suit pilot in the SEED universe

 * He is one of the 3 best pilots but he wont ever be the best pilot, I think that there are no need for that biased statement, Deleting it will be more better.Astrys 22:15, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Er, the "he is one of if not the most" is show us that he is probably one of the best or the best. The statement didn't claim that he is the best. And, out to the topic, In my opinion, your statement above also biased.... 219.83.2.59 13:24, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

 * If you think that you are right while you are wrong then why not Shinn and Athrun has the same statement in their articles, There are no way to say that Kira is better than anyone of them so: Deleting it or adding a similar statement to Shinn and Athrun articles.

 * And this statement doesn't prove that he is the best but it says that Kira is one of the best pilots or the best, And it means that other pilots like Shinn and Athrun are one of the best but wont be the best because Kira is the best. Again Kira is one of the best 3 pilots in C.E but he wont be the best pilot, If you want to keep this statement then we must add a similar statement to Shinn and Athrun articles or we must say that:

 * "Kira's accomplishments in both Bloody Valentine Wars proved that he is one of the 3 most skilled mobile suit pilots in the SEED universe"

 * OR:

 * "he is one of the most skilled mobile suit pilots"Astrys 22:34, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Long time I don't check this page and I find a seed of war again... 219.83.2.59 is pointing out that the statement doesn't mean to say Kira is the most skilled. I don't understand, where did you (Astrys) deduced this logic: And it means that other pilots like Shinn and Athrun are one of the best but wont be the best because Kira is the best. I still can't derive this. Statement "he is one of if not the most" implies that it is possible that other pilot (even Mu, etc) is the best because it is probable that the other pilot is the best.... At least my understanding of logic says so. About if you want put the sentence in Athrun's or Shinn's page, it is okay and it has nothing related to this page.... I just curious that the sentence "he is one of if not the most" may need reference. OK? Draconins 12:38, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Again, The all thing is that saying "He is one of if not the most" means that Kira is one of the best pilots and maybe the best pilot and since he would be the most skilled pilot then others wont be the best because he is the best, I'm sorry but I think that you can't understand the idea that if someone is the best others wont be the best because if there are others as skilled as this pilot he wont be called the best, It would be changed to one of the best, I'm not saying that because I want to put it in Shinn's or Athrun's page, I'm saying that because my logic says to me that he is one if not the most means that he would be the best and since he is the best others will be called second best and third best, I think that it would be better to change this statement to a similar statement of what I said before but if you want to keep it then Athrun and Shinn would like to have a similar one, I don't think that I will add things al least you know my problem with English.Astrys 23:05, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

 * And sorry, If something, The seed of war came from this statement, If I want to start a war I can prove easily how pathetic Kira is but we wont ever end because no one would listen to the other.Astrys 23:12, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

 * I am sorry I can't continue discussion since I see severe problem on your English and logic. Meybe time teaches you the better ways. Moreover, the sentence have been deleted too (^^). However, I warn you once again: "Do not provoke flame wars and be polite!" . Your sentence : "If I want to start a war I can prove easily how pathetic Kira ...." could stage flame war. Please check your manner, this is public encyclopedia not fan's forum. For you know, I do like Kira, I do not like Shinn, however I always try to maintain neutrality and give as objective as I can. I think many other wikipedians do, and they try as hard as they can to refrain themselves from such provoking sentence. Thanks.... ^^ Draconins 15:11, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

 * My logic is fine but your's not, I know the better ways of discussing but you???, Ok, saying about wars and flames Oh ya, Your sentence in clearly the reason of this not my sentence, Saying that "Kira is maybe the most skilled pilot" will easily start a war, And my sentence means it can be proved that Kira isn't the best pilot(nor Shinn and Athrun) so saying that he is one of "If not the most skilled" is clearly a bias, and ya this is public encyclopedia not fan's forum and you know that so there are no need for biases, If you want to keep this sentence, Athrun and Shinn must have a similar one if not say that he is one of the best pilots that's would be enough.

 * For you know, I do like Kira, I do not like Shinn, however I always try to maintain neutrality and give as objective as I can.

 * That's why you are trying to write that Shinn is an anti-hero, to make it clear that Kira is the hero.Astrys 09:24, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Doh... You really got my nerve now.... I really hate this kind of talking. I didn't say that I want to keep that sentence, in my opinion that sentence unsourced... It is juts your logic is problematic.... Enough said.... Draconins 04:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

This trivia is pretty redundant, do we really need this much?

It is not redundant. In my opinion, i believe that some tidbits for an article is needed as it tells about the unknown things that the audience might have missed. Also, we do not need a large trivia, although relevant data can be placed inside.

I have cleaned up a bit on the article (gramatical, redundant words etc.), but it still is in a mess, retelling the story from Kira's POV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ronald23 (talk • contribs)
 * The article doesn't need a cleanup, it needs to get a lawnmower run over it. The primary focus of a character page would be describing said character in detail, his relevance to the story, interactions with other characters, and providing knowledge of their lives, not giving a word-per-word account of every single event in narrative form (which in itself is not allowed). Unfortunately, making ANY sort of major change in the SEED articles is extremely frustrating as it needs no less than an a full debate on each single detail and constant bombardment from users making fan references/fandom made-up facts/extremely subjective notes/popular misconceptions etc. Just for example, even after two debates, I'm still regularly having to edit out constant mentions of Terminal by people who not only add them back up, but also don't even bother to discuss it.

 * In short, I'd only be willing to put some serious work into it if I knew I wasn't the only one and that I wouldn't just be jumping into a tank full of sharks. Ephyon 02:17, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Weight
How in hell does a person loose THAT MUCH weight at the same time GROW TALLER? Where is this stat information coming from? Do all the characters have an eating disorder that we don't know about? We a lead to believe that all the characters are doing well. I believe that some of the stats on all the characters are fabricated.

 * I don't know off the top of my head exactly how much Kira weighed in either series, but I do remember that shocking weight loss when I looked at the new official stats. The only character who gained weight was Neo/Mwu. :P

 * Out of persistence, it could simply be Coordinators having a different bone structure or how their muscle tissue binds differently. It still sounds like fangirl bait/writing though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.88.224.53 (talk) 09:04, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Zaft Membership
While preview pics show Kira wearing a white ZAFT uniform, that is not a gaurantee he joins ZAFT in GSDSE. After all, he wore a red ZAFT uniform in GS, but was not an actual member of ZAFT. Until GSDSE is released, claiming Kira is ZAFT commander is speculation. Edward321 00:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Did Any one translated the GSDSE 4 already? Cuz I know that Athurn says something in the credits when it is shown that Kira wears his White Coat. Mabye Athrun gives some explanation on this? Justix-nl 10:25, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I was wondering too how/why Kira goes to ZAFT. I was kinda suprised to read that, since i have been so used to him being with ORB/EA/TERMINAL. Could it be because Lacus is a ZAFT leader and being with ZAFT makes it easier on them? There's a lot to consider. AnthonyWalters 00:18, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Terminal membership
In GSD, Kira and Lacus are clearly part of an organization that has military ships (Archangel, Eternal, etc.) and Gundams (Freedom, the DOM's) complete with pilots (Kira, Andrew, the Dom pilots, etc.) and factories to produce new Gundams (Strike Freedom, Infinite Justice). This organization does not answer to the military or civilian government of Orb, and is in direct conflict with Orb's civilian government for most of the series. What do you think this organization is, if not Terminal?

Kira and Lacus are shown giving orders, but never taking them. If they aren't the leaders of this organization, then who is? Edward321 00:33, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

 * To clarify, Lacus is the leader of the Clyne Faction (The Factory/Eternal/those three DOMS). Terminal is a separate mercenary group that is affiliated with and provides Clyne Faction with intelligence. Kira only has official ranks within EAF and Orb military (And now ZAFT, apparently), Clyne Faction isn't an official military force and has no specific rank organization beyond Lacus=Boss. While it IS true that Kira can easily give orders within given that he and Lacus are seem to agree on basically everything, he has no actual official power. Therefore, I'm removing it. Ephyon 04:29, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Reverted because your edit was misspelled and because it made the article say the crew of Archangel was following Kira's orders because he was Orb military - which makes no sense since they were all disobeying orders from the Orb military and civilian government. Also, if you're going to change this, in addition to fixing the listed problems, you need to cite sources to prove your view, not just state your opinion. Edward321 01:09, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll admit that was a quick and lazy edit, sorry for the misspelling. That paragraph is merely trying to find a reason for why Ramius and Co. would follow his orders, which really doesn't make much sense overall since he IS officially an Orb Commander regardless of whoever listens to him or not. Still, by that point Orb was back under Cagalli's command and they were in fact fighting as one with the Orb military, so your point is moot.

As for the Terminal=/=Clyne Faction discussion, that's already being discussed in Talk:Factions of the Cosmic Era. From the link given there, take specific care to read the third page of the thread where the exact source is quoted.

And to cover the bases, before trying to dismiss a citation from an official source because you don't trust the interloper (like the unsigning guy in that discussion did), I would hope you could provide a source that DOES list Terminal as being Lacus' group name and being under Kira's lead. You know, seeing as we need to quote sources to prove our view, and none of the extremely passing mentions of the name "Terminal" in the series actually provide any information whatsoever on it, and the entire nature of the information present here comes from the simple generalized assumption that "Terminal helps Lacus, therefore Terminal=Lacus", which is an understandable mistake considering all we are actually told in the series is that something called Terminal helps Lacus. Ephyon 05:04, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

 * My point is not moot. The Archangel crew was acting independantly of  the Orb military from the moment it launched to stop Cagalli's wedding.    Much of the crew had rejoined at that point after returning to civilian life, and do not appear to have reenlisted, for an enterprise that was going to be going into direct conflict with the Orb military and civilian government.  And even if Murrue and others are defering to Kira because of his rank in the Orb military, why are they defering to Lacus?

 * The problem with that posted link is it points only to a forum, and I've seen all sorts of stuff claimed as official on forums. If Terminal is not the same thing as the Clyne faction, then quite a lot of articles are going to need a rewrite.  Before something that major is done, I feel an official book and/or website should be specifically cited.

 * If Terminal is just an independant information gathering group, who else has it worked for and who are it's members? And why, instead of contacting them for information, do Lacus and Andrew take the risks of stealing a shuttle, and why do they (and Martin) do all the information gathering themselves?  Edward321 15:18, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

HUGE WALL O'TEXT ALERT

On the first part, the only time Kira has ever issued an explicit order, or rather, forced someone to obey him was during the final battle. In other words, the only time in which he has ever enforced his rank was during a time in which his rank was valid. During the entire series we never see any other enforcement of the chain of command from anyone in Kira's side, and most of the prompts given by anyone are as requests. If you watched any other Gundam series, scenes like a pilot requesting his commanding officers to do something for whatever reason ("Captain, let me sortie, I have an idea" stuff) is extremely common. What I am saying, is that just because Ramius complied with Kira's request to launch during the Orb Vs. ZAFT battles (as an example) is by no means proof that he is or isn't higher on the food chain. It may be just that she agreed with him or had no reason to protest. And in the same way, when has the Archengel crew ever explicitly obeyed and order from Lacus? Actually, when has Lacus ever issued an order to anyone but the Eternal crew (Which are Clyne Faction, not Orb)?

And you have not produced any evidence either. So Ramius listened to Kira, can you point out where the reason for that is listed? Can you actually point towards ANY real information regarding Terminal?

The point? There is never any clear mention of Kira having real power over non-Orb forces. There is also no mention of Kira NOT having power over non-Orb forces, but in a situation where there is not enough reliable information to certify a claim ("Kira has command over Clyne Faction"), the burden of proof falls on the one trying to ascertain that claim. In an exagerated example, let's say I go to Genghis Khan's page and I say "He liked cats". I doubt anyone would be able to produce consistent verifiable proof of the contrary, but since I don't have any proof that it is real either, the information would be disregarded anyway.

Secondly (Man, that went long), there IS a source quoted. like I said, third page of the thread states clearly '''Page 28 of "Mobile Suit Gundam Seed Destiny Official File: Mechanics 03." Published by Kodansha on September 8, 2005, ISBN4-06-367157-7'''. How much more would you want, a snapshot? If you doubt the interloper, I suggest we go and wipe out ALL pages regarding content never officially translated, which would make just about all MS pages, most manga adaptations, fansubs, etc, which were all translated from official sources by fan translators. Would you consider what you could read in Zeonic-Corps' translation of Destiny Special Edition fact? Well, Deacon Blues (Zeonic's admin) is in that thread as well. As a random add-on just because, if you’ve ever seen a GSD model kit for Strike Freedom/Infinity Justice, they are listed as being under Clyne Faction, no mention of Terminal.

Oh and by the way, if you read the quote carefully, you’ll see that Terminal is listed as a mercenary mafia-like group that trades information and favours Lacus’ group, not strictly allied to it and even less under their command. Why couldn’t Terminal provide info on Destiny Plan is irrelevant, they simply didn’t. You can think about it all you want, but it doesn’t make a difference to the argument: Terminal isn’t under Lacus’ or Kira’s command. Ephyon 19:28, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

@Edward321: the organization you are talking about is the clyne faction, not terminal. I dont feel like explaining to you what terminal is...but if you want to know more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factions_of_the_Cosmic_Era#Terminal and the leader of terminal is unknown. Kaito-kid 13:44, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

ENOUGH WITH JESUS YAMATO
It’s the fourth time I’ve had to revert this. No, idiotic 4chan exaggerated recurring jokes are not encyclopedic content. Moreover, 4chan is not, despite what they might want to believe, the canonical master of the internet, and just because ANONYMOUS spouts that line every three goddamn minutes doesn’t make it common use among the fans, as there are plenty of other communities that don’t.

And no, it’s not in SRW either. I guess 71.230.72.192 misinterpreted what’s on Shinji Ikari’s page. Ephyon 01:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

The on the Archangel section
Didn't Kira cry himself to sleep while repaeating "traitor" to himself?--Tempest115 12:05, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

 * He is shown saying "traitor" to himself once. I'm not exactly sure if he was crying himself to sleep though, as he probably went to his room so he can be alone while he cried. I'll undo my edit. --Silver Edge 19:23, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

About SRW @3 reference
From what I've read, the SEED mode boost doesn't affect stats at all, but gives +10% to final dealt damage, final dodge chance and final hit chance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.217.39.244 (talk) 20:25, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Kyama.JPG
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BetacommandBot 06:25, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Strike Freedom.jpg
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BetacommandBot (talk) 05:12, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Strike Freedom.jpg
Image:Strike Freedom.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

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BetacommandBot 21:03, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Unaddressed long term problems of this article
This article has been tagged as "in universe" and having an overlong plot section since early August, 2006--nearly eighteen months ago.

Let's see what Kira has going for him in the real world:
 * He's the protagonist of Mobile Suit Gundam SEED
 * This series won several major awards
 * It has international significance. For instance Cartoon Network in the USA has shown it
 * It was described by an AnimeNation analyst as a breakthrough series, popular with regular Japanese viewers as well as Otaku
 * There were several mangas concerning side stories to the main series
 * He's an important character in Mobile Suit Gundam SEED Destiny
 * Although the relevant article contains little information about the reception of the series, it did win two consecutive Animage awards.

However this article is solely about the character. It contains no real world information at all, so it's 43 kilobytes of plot summary and characterization.

What could be done to address these problems? --Tony Sidaway 08:43, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Alligiance, Rank, and Mobile Weapons
I think those should be removed. He doesn't have a collection of allegiance, and I find it to be fan information. Ranks is keep or remove, it seems to fit with two of them. Mobile Weapons I think, should be removed and just merged to plot, since he's not keeping them as a collection. DragonZero (talk) 02:28, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Relevance of Kira's battle vs Rau Le Creuset
The final battle of Gundam Seed is quite possibly the most significant one of the series. It is a character defining moment for Kira Yamato considering he is fighting out of character; not being his usual calm and rational self, going so far as to attempting to kill Rau. It would not be consistent with the article and that of other characters to not provide a brief mention as notable battles have been briefly mentioned including those which do not result in the loss of a mobile suit for the combatant. (example; Inclusion of Shinn's battle vs Kira on Shinn's character page) I also believe it is the intent of the article to provide as brief of a summary as possible. Many significant developments are not described in detail but rather a reference is given. It would not consistent with the article to provide an overlong detailed analysis of why the battle is relevant or to describe the subtle ways in which it effects Kira's personality. Kira's defeat of Rau can also be seen as Kira Yamato's single most important action in the series as Rau was largely responsible for steering the course of the war. Based on the criteria established by this article and those of other Gundam Seed characters it merits inclusion. Vejet (talk) 16:45, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It is the climatic battle of the series, between the protagonist and the chief antagonist, during which the protagonist's first love is murdered by the antagonist. To say it has no impact on Kira is baffling, obviously it has significant impact. Edward321 (talk) 17:51, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

 * But it makes no impact on Kira at all. Saying it affects on Kira's personality or that it was what ended war is wp:original research and not to mention that Kira also battled various other ZAFT pilots in the series' finale. Other stuff makes it clear discussing others is not a valid (although Shinn's battle had a cause and consequence for his it to be mentioned). The reason why battles should be avoided is to avoid fancruft and additionally, Rau's name was already linked in the same paragraph making the link pointless.Tintor2 (talk) 21:34, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

 * Saying it does not affect Kira at all is wp:original research on your part. Rau's named being previously linked does not mean it cannot be mentioned again without a link. I think you are significantly misinterpreting Other stuff and fancruft - based on your interpretation A New Hope should not mention Luke destroying the Death Star and Bridge on the River Kwai should not mention the death of Colonel Nicholson. Edward321 (talk) 22:22, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
 * There has been no proof that such thing is notable for the character. It may have had an impact on Rey, but no Kira. Additionally, sure, he battles Rau, but he also battles other Earth Alliance soldiers who are notable to the story in the last episodes. If we were to place notable opponent he has but makes no impact of him, then we would sure be using fancruft. Moreover, Rau's position was already explained, so there's no need to explain who is he again and provide a link. By the way, if we used the Star Wars example, then that would be Athrun's role as he was supposed to destroy Genesis, while Kira battled the ZAFT and Earth Alliance pilots.Tintor2 (talk) 22:36, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe that there is conclusive evidence that it effects his character by observing his mannerism during the fight and by comparing his behavior at the end of Gundam Seed to the way he acts in Gundam Seed Destiny. But getting past that, any observable effects on his personality are actually irrelevant. It is the implications of this event on the series and on Kira himself that is relevant. Fact is that Kira defeated Rau. There is no need to go into any more detail than that. Whether or not Kira even realized it, defeating Rau was an essential contribution to ending the war. With this action Kira's fulfills his entire purpose in fighting - to end the war. That effect alone makes it a note worth event in his personal history. Vejet (talk) 23:34, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

 * Coming from here, I have no knowledge of this character. That said, you're all on the wrong track. Keep in mind: Nobody is interested in our opinions. Whether some Wikipedians think that some event in the life of a fictional character had an impact on him or not is completely irrelevant. It would be best to find a source making a claim to that end, but lacking such a source we should try to stick to objective criteria in determining what is worth mentioning an what isn't. For instance, we could go by screen time. How long is the sequence in question? And how much is that in comparison to his total screen time?  Good raise  02:40, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Not much really in comparison. Kira appears in about 100 episodes, and the fights lasts for some minutes considering the cuts there are. I still don't haven't seen a source explains how that such battle affects the character, considering there are just speculations.Tintor2 (talk) 15:01, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
 * “Not much really in comparison. Kira appears in about 100 episodes, and the fights lasts for some minutes considering the cuts there are.” Yes, and the same can be said about every battle in the series give or take a few minutes. If battle time in comparison to series time is relevant why make note of any battles at all? (they all fail this) Whats more important is that the amount of time spent on this battle was more than that spent on any other individual event which occurred in the final battle. Also, Rau was to Kira as Kira was to Shinn; a menacing opponent that in their minds had to be stopped. Why include Shinn’s battle vs Kira on Shinns’s page if Kira’s battle against Rau is not included? What is the difference between them? The only quantifiable difference is that Shinn’s battle vs Kira happened in the middle of one series vs a battle that happened at the end of another series(but actually in the middle of the franchise). Also, Rau died while Kira did not. This arguably makes Shinn’s battle against Kira less relevant. It did not change the outcome of the war. Where as Kira’s battle against Rau was a contributing factor to the end of the original war, Kira's only objective. Defeating Rau was a contributing factor because as shown on numerous occasions, he was an individual who had the authority, motive and capability to manipulate events in his favor. His defeat is more relevant than that of any other combatant because he was the only one shown to have these capabilities. The fact that the final battle occurred as it did was due entirely to Rau’s machinations. Therefore his defeat is of greater prominence than Kira’s defeat of any other specific individual. In any case, my main issue is with consistency. The same standard being discussed here has not be applied to other Gundam Seed/Destiny characters therefore seeing as no consensus can be reached here I will be making the appropriate changes. Vejet (talk) 19:11, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

 * Firstly, if we cared more about consistency (I believe you meant consistency, not constancy) than about quality, no article would improve, ever. Secondly, you can write a ten page essay on why this is the most important battle in the franchise, if you please, but that won't help here. Since I apparently did not make myself sufficiently clear the first time I said it, I'll point it out again: Our opinions don't matter. A reader who is interested in the opinions of anonymous nobodies can find an endless supply on countless blogs and noticeboards throughout the web. We are not in the business of publishing our own thoughts. (See WP:OR.) Thirdly, that "battle time in comparison to series time is relevant" is not what I said (or meant). The scope of this article is just that one character, not the whole series. Each and every appearance of the character should be given due mention. Due mention may be a whole section, a paragraph, a sentence, or no mention at all. (See WP:DUE.) Determining how much "weight" to give a particular appearance is best done by citing non-primary sources (the primary source in this case is the anime series itself). Without such sources to rely on, we have little choice but to look at the anime itself, but that doesn't equate to a free pass around policy. (Again, see WP:OR.) We need to find a criterion that is as objective as possible. Using screen time is merely a suggestion on my part. To give an example of how that would work: Assuming a character has 100 minutes of screen time, including a 10 minute flashback into his past, a 5 minute battle, a split second appearance in the crowd of a large sports stadium, and 20 minutes of sitting around and playing cards, then the plot summary section ("Appearances" as it is named here) of that character's article should dedicate about 10% of its size to the flashback, 5% to the battle, give a mention at the very most of the appearance in the crowd, and 20% to the character's playing of cards. It's simple and it requires little to no opining on our part.  Good raise  23:06, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
 * If I were to start giving reasons all over again, is that Kira's fight against Rau was just one of the many fights he had in the last ten episodes which helped the end war. There is no source that says that affects him, while if I were to refer to otherstuff, his fight against Shinn actually helps to explain why Kira lost his current mobile suit and had to use another. Strangely, Vejet already did a similar edit to Shinn Asuka's page using the same argument so I'm quite confused about his reason.Tintor2 (talk) 23:55, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

 * re; Screen time - the majority of Kira's screen time in the episode is question was fighting Rau. re; significance of the battle - I stated that it is "perhaps" the most significant battle, I did not claim that it was in fact and yes that would be my own personal opinion which is of course irrelevant. The facts support the notion that the battle is a significant event. This is the battle that actually results in the end of the (1st)war - the stated object of all the protagonists. re; "Thirdly, that "battle time in comparison to series time is relevant" is not what I said (or meant)" I understand your position, my comment was not in response to you. "Strangely Vejet already did a similar edit to Shinn Asuka's page] using the same argument so I'm quite confused about his reason." Please read my comment before to understand my reasoning for the aforementioned edit. The articles in question should be consistent now. However they are lacking in detail and hence quality which, as Goodraise has noted, should be of a greater concern. However it seems we are unable to achieve a higher standard since there is no 'consensus' on this matter. Vejet (talk) 04:12, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

That there is no consensus at this moment means squat. Consensus is created through editing of articles and discussions on talk pages. What I'd like to know (an estimate would suffice as far as I'm concerned) is how long this particular battle is (in minutes) and how many minutes of screen time Kira has in the whole series. As for your facts-based reasoning, you are mistaken in assuming that it doesn't contain your opinion. It may be a fact that all the protagonists wanted to end the war (let's call this fact A). And it may just as well be a fact that the battle in question results in the end of said war (let's call this fact B). However, it is you who combines facts A and B to draw the conclusion C, namely that the battle is significant. Strictly speaking, that is what we call original research. In practice, writing plot summaries using primary sources always involves a certain degree of interpretation. This is no problem as long as everyone agrees on these interpretations. In this case, as you quite correctly point out, there is no consensus for your interpretation. The solution is to fall back on more objective criteria, like analysing screen time.  Good raise  06:18, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes your right, based on the information available its not a quantifiable fact, simply common sense. Re; minutes Kira and Rau’s battle takes about 5 minutes of screen time in episode 50. I’m guessing his average screen time per episode is normally about 4-5 minutes per episode. 5 minutes per episode that gives you 245 minutes for 49 episodes. The 5 minutes spent on the battle between Kira and Rau would represent approx. 2% of his total screen time (this of course does not including the 80 seconds spent on Kira having a ‘moment’ with the girl Rau kills in the episode during their battle). I count 508 words in the article on Kira’s actions in the first series. 2% of this would be 10 words, basically one sentence. There is no mention in the article of this specific battle. Vejet (talk) 09:16, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Then wouldn't the same apply to the previous episode where Kira spent minutes battling the Earth Alliance pilots? Kira spent about two episodes in the final battle, one against the Earth Alliance soldiers, and one against Rau which summarizing would be all of the Archangel's enemies.Tintor2 (talk) 14:18, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
 * You are mistaken, Kira's total screen time in episode 49, is less than 2 minutes. He spends approx. 20 seconds of screen time fighting the prominent Earth Alliance soldiers and he does not defeat a single one by himself. Perhaps it can be said that his actions were vital to the defeat of the Calamity's when it dodged his attack only to be destroyed by Athrun. In any case you have 20 seconds of screen time vs 5 minutes from a total of 200-250 minutes. Vejet (talk) 19:25, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Nope, overdetails of battles should be avoided. In any case, how is the defeat or death of somebody else important enough to put it an article? The fight against Stella was also long and it included the death of a notable character (although saying notable or anything is OR).Tintor2 (talk) 20:12, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The edits are not over detailed, the total screen time compared to the word count is in proportion. Vejet (talk) 22:07, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

 * How would that fit? Does this sound right? "Kira continues to fight along side the Archangel until their opponents, including Rau, have been defeated and the war comes to end."Tintor2 (talk) 23:28, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I think that fits and sounds fine. Everyone else in agreement?Vejet (talk) 00:57, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
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Ford Y-block engine

The Y-block engine is a family of overhead valve V8 automobile engines produced by Ford Motor Company. The engine is well known and named for its deep skirting, which causes the engine block to resemble a Y. It was introduced in 1954 as a more modern replacement for the outdated side-valved Ford Flathead V8 and was used in a variety of Ford vehicles through 1964.

Development
By 1948, the famous Ford Flathead V8 had been developed about as far as it could go, and it was antiquated by the early 1950s. Ford was the most conservative of the major automakers, holding onto older designs longer than GM or Chrysler, but market forces pushed Ford to develop new designs in the 1950s. Management at Ford instructed its engineers to develop a new engine for the future. By 1952 Ford had new, 215 cuin OHV 6-cylinder engine and Lincoln had a 317 cuin OHV V8. The company had designed the Y-block for a 1953 introduction, but a shortage of nickel due to the Korean War's needs prevented the company from manufacturing the engine in sufficient quantities, delaying it until 1954.

In 1954 the Y-block displaced 3910 cc, the same as the old Ford Flathead V8 but with a bigger bore and a shorter stroke. It produced 130 bhp as opposed to the Flathead's final 110 bhp, an increase of 18%. The Mercury Y-Block was 4194 cc and produced 161 bhp, again a similar displacement to the 255 cuin Mercury Flathead V8 it replaced, but with 29% more power than the older engine's 125 bhp.

The original Lincoln V8 was also known as a Y-Block. Lincoln introduced their engine in 1952, but it was a different design from the Ford Y-Block, and was used on large cars and Ford heavy-duty trucks.

One of the design qualities of the Y-Block V8 is its deep skirting which makes for a very rigid block for added strength in the bottom end. The drawback to this is it also makes for a heavy cylinder block. This being Ford's first OHV engine, they had to feed oil to the rocker arm shafts through a passage from the center cam bearing. Because of the low detergents in oils of that era these passages would often become clogged giving the Y-Block a reputation for bad oiling to the top end. Ford came up with a stop gap measure for this problem by feeding oil via an external tube directly to the rocker shafts from the main oil gallery.

Cylinder heads on the Y-Block have always been a point for discussion. Because of the configuration of the intake ports, vertically in pairs instead of horizontally side by side, and the way in which they make sharp turns around the head bolts, they have been called “bad breathers”. Although their flow can indeed be inferior, they are nonetheless able to rev to 7,000+ rpm.

Ford Y-blocks are easily identified. The distributor is located at the back of the engine and off to one side and the valve covers are held on with two studs/washers/nuts through the domed tops.

239
The first Y-block on Ford automobiles and F100 trucks was the 3910 cc version as released in 1954 with EBU casting numbers. The Y-block was the same displacement as the old Ford Flathead V8 that it replaced but with a bigger bore and a shorter stroke (3.5 x 3.1 in). It produced 130 bhp (97 kW) at 4,200 rpm as opposed to the flathead's final 110 bhp (82 kW) at 3,800 rpm, an increase of 18%. Torque was also up compared to the Flathead, with 214 lb·ft (290 N·m) at 1,800rpm compared with 196 lb·ft (266 N·m) at 2,000rpm. The Y-block was considered a major advancement over the flathead. The 239 was available in 1954 models (EBU casting numbers), and in late 1954 and 1955 (EBV casting numbers), while also in 1955 the bigger 272 and 292 cubic inch siblings were introduced. The 1955 EBV 239 engine exchanges many parts with later model Y-blocks such as the 272 and 292, while the 1954 EBU engine has many parts that do not exchange with the 1955 EBV 239 and later Y-blocks.

256
The original Mercury Y-block, introduced for the 1954 model year, displaced 4194 cc. Advertised as the "V-161" engine, it ran a bore and stroke of 3.625 x 3.1 in. The compression ratio was 7.5:1, and the rated power was 161 hp at 4,400 rpm. Torque was 238 lbft at 2,200 rpm. The engine breathed through a Holley model 2140 (4V) carburetor. The 256 version of the Mercury Y-block was only available in 1954 models and was replaced by the 292 in 1955. The 256 was also used in some F100s in 1955 depending on the production plant location and was also installed in law enforcement sedans.

272
By 1955 Chevrolet introduced its small block V8 with 265 cuin, not to be outdone Ford increased its displacement to 272 cuin and introduced the Thunderbird with a 292 cuin engine. The 4465 cc version of the Y-Block was the same bore as the outgoing Mercury 256 cubic inch Y-Block but with a longer stroke (3.625 x 3.3 in). The standard 1955 U-code featured a two barrel Holley carburetor and was rated at 162 bhp (121 kW) at 4,400 rpm and 258 lb·ft (350 Nm) at 2,400 rpm. The optional "Power Pack" M-code utilised a four barrel Holley carburetor and was rated at 182 bhp (136 kW) at 4,400 rpm.

In 1956 the U-code was updated to produce 173 bhp (129 kW) at 4,400 rpm and 260 lb·ft (353 N·m) at 2,400 rpm with a manual transmission behind it or 176 bhp (131 kW) at 4,400 rpm and 264 lb·ft (358 N·m) at 2,400 rpm with an automatic transmission. The M-code 272 was dropped altogether in 1956 in favour of a four barrel M-code version of the 292.

A final version of the 272 in the US was released in 1957 as the B-code. It featured a two barrel Holley carburetor and was rated at 190 bhp (142 kW) at 4,500 rpm and 270 lb·ft (366 N·m) at 2,700 rpm.

Ford Australia released this V8 motor as its only option in the four-door Customline sedan from 1955-1959 (based on the Canadian Meteor), and its coupé utility, based on the same styling as the Customline, called a Mainline. It was introduced in passenger cars in July 1955, and in the redesigned truck lineup one month later. In late 1956 the Australian 272 switched to a four bolt 2 barrel Autolite carburetor.

This engine, as well as the 292 version starting in 1956, was also produced by Ford of Brazil at its São Paulo plant facility (Ipiranga plant). A new building was opened on November 21, 1958, by the Brazilian President, Juscelino Kubitschek de Oliveira, to produce the first Ford engine in South America. The 272 version was used on Brazilian F-series trucks until 1977 and on the Brazilian Galaxie 500, launched in April 1967.

292
The 4778 cc Y-Block was also introduced in 1955. The 292 shared the 3.3 in (83.82 mm) stroke of the 272 but with a larger 3.75 in (95.25 mm) bore. It was used in the Ford Thunderbird, 1959-60 Edsel, Mercury, and some high-end Ford cars. The Ford version was the P-code "Thunderbird V8", which for cars equipped with a manual transmission had a compression ratio of 8.1:1 and was rated at 193 bhp (144 kW) at 4,400 rpm and with 280 lb·ft (380 Nm) at 2,600 rpm. Cars equipped with an automatic transmission had a slightly higher compression ratio of 8.5:1 with a quoted 198 bhp (148 kW) at 4,400 rpm and 286 lb·ft (388 Nm) at 2,500 rpm.

The Mercury division had two versions of the 292 available in 1955. The standard engine had a 7.6:1 compression ratio and was rated at 188 bhp (140 kW) at 4,400 rpm, with 272 lb·ft (369 Nm) of torque at 2,500 rpm. The top of the range Montclair V8 came with a higher specification version that was rated 198 bhp (148 kW) at 4,400 rpm and 282 lb·ft (382 Nm) at 2,500 rpm. 1955 would be the only model year that Mercury would utilise the 292 in version of the Y-Block, with it being replaced by the larger 312 in engine for the 1956 model year.

In 1956 Ford replaced the P-code 292 with a new 312 cuin "Thunderbird Special V8" version of the Y-Block, while the M-code 272 was replaced with a new M-Code specification of the 292. This M-code "Thunderbird V8" 292 was now optional on all Fords. The engine when fitted behind manual transmission vehicles had an 8.0:1 compression ratio and was rated at 200 bhp (149 kW) at 4,600 rpm and 285 lb·ft at 2,600 rpm, whilst the automatic featured an 8.4:1 compression ratio with a rating of 202 bhp (151 kW) at 4,600 rpm and 289 lb·ft (392 Nm) at 2,600 rpm.

All Ford Y-Blocks were up on power for the 1957 model year. The 292 was available as the C-code engine option, once again with a slight difference between the manual transmission and "Fordomatic" automatic transmission. Compression was up to 9.1:1 in manual cars, which were rated 206 bhp (154 kW) at 4,500 rpm and 297 lb·ft (403 Nm) at 2,700 rpm. Automatic vehicles were rated 212 bhp (158 kW) at 4,500 rpm, torque and compression ratio are not listed in the Ford 1957 workshop manual as being any different from the manual car, which seems unlikely given the power difference at the same engine speed.

The 292 would be the longest-lived of the Y-Blocks, carrying on until 1962 in U.S. cars and until 1964 in U.S. trucks. It was also used in Argentina in the F-100 pick-up well into the 1960s, and was known as Fase I (Phase I). In 1971, the engine was modified to accept a new-style cylinder head with a different valve arrangement (E-I-E-I-E-I-E-I versus E-I-I-E-E-I-I-E), new intake and exhaust manifolds and was renamed Fase II (Phase II). In this form, the 292 Fase II continued into the 1980s in the F-100, and was also used in the Argentine Ford Fairlane (built from 1969–1982, and based heavily on the U.S. 1968 model). All Argentine versions of this engine feature a cast crankshaft rather than the forged example that equipped US heavy-duty engines. The 292 version was also produced by Ford of Brazil and equipped the Brazilian LTD starting in 1969. Both the 272 and 292 engines were replaced on Brazilian cars by the 302 windsor family engine starting on 1976 model year.

312
The 312 cuin V8 engine came out for the 1956 model year and was again used in high-end Ford and Mercury cars, including the Thunderbird.

Bore x stroke dimensions were 3.80x3.44 in.

Depending on model year and application, the 312 was available with a single two- or four-barrel Holley carburetor, two four-barrel carburetors and with or without a McCulloch (Paxton) supercharger (1957 only).

All 1956 U.S. Mercury models were powered by the 312 cuin V8 breathing through a four-barrel carburetor. At the beginning of the model year, a 210 hp version with 8.0:1 compression ratio powered Mercury cars with manual transmissions (including three-speed plus overdrive), while a 225 hp version powered cars with automatic transmissions. The 225-horsepower version had an 8.4:1 compression ratio. Later in the model year, a 235 hp version with 9.0:1 compression ratio became available. All 1956 Mercury engines had gold-painted blocks and heads. The 210-horsepower version had red valve covers and air cleaner, while the 225-horsepower version had blue valve covers and air cleaner. The 235-horsepower version had argent silver valve covers and air cleaner. A dealer-installed "M 260" engine kit was released in January 1956. The kit consisted of a hotter camshaft, revised cylinder heads, and an intake manifold mounting two four-barrel carburetors. The kit was advertised as boosting the Mercury 312 V8 to 260 hp.

Not generally known, about 40% of these 312s were equipped with vacuum secondary CARTER WCFBs. They are a highly desired version, as the Holleys were cantankerous.

The 312s had no centrifugal timing advance in their distributors until 1957.

The last regular application of the 312 V8 in the U.S. was for certain 1960 Mercury models. Though considered to be a high-performance engine in 1956 and 1957, it was downgraded to an "economy" engine with low compression and two-barrel carburetor by 1960. Ford pickups used the 292 cuin version as late as 1965.

Replacement
When Ford Y-block debuted its power making ability was already hindered by its inherent displacement limit. A quick reference to the engine specifications for 1955-57 shows the Ford V8s ahead of the Chevrolet counterparts in displacement, horsepower, and torque. However, larger CID V8 engines made by Cadillac, Chrysler, Buick, Pontiac and Oldsmobile clearly showed the small CID architecture of the Y-block would need revision in order to keep pace with the other automakers.

Even with the benefit of today's technology (aftermarket rods and stroker cranks), the upper limit of a Y-block is about 348 cid, while the Chevrolet could be modified well past the factory limit of 400 cid. The result was the introduction in 1958 of the 332 CID "big block" Ford FE engine which ultimately grew to 428 cu in. Later, in 1962, the Ford Windsor engine – which began at 221 cid would fully replace the Y-Block and grow to 351 cid.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Ford Y-block engine


text:
Seifert

Seifert is a German surname. Notable people with the surname include:

 * Alfred Seifert (1850–1901), Czech German painter
 * Alfred Seifert (flax miller) (1877–1945), New Zealand flax-miller
 * Alwin Seifert (1890–1972), German architect
 * Benjamin Seifert (born 1982), German cross country skier
 * Bernhard Seifert (born 1993), German javelin thrower
 * Bill Seifert (born 1939), American racecar driver
 * Christian Seifert (born 1969), German entrepreneur
 * Christopher Seifert (1975–2003), American soldier
 * Else Seifert (1879–1968), German photographer
 * Emil Seifert (1900–1973), Czech football manager
 * Ernst Seifert (1855–1928), German organ builder
 * Frank Seifert (born 1972), German footballer
 * Friedrich Seifert (born 1941), German mineralogist
 * George Seifert (born 1940), American football coach
 * Harald Seifert (born 1953), East German bobsledder
 * Hartmut Seifert (born 1944), German labor economist
 * Heath Seifert (born 1968), American television writer
 * Herbert Seifert (1897–1996), German mathematician
 * Howard S. Seifert (1911–1977), American rocket propulsion authority
 * Ilja Seifert (1951–2022), German politician
 * Jan Seifert (born 1968), German footballer
 * Jaroslav Seifert (1901–1986), Czech writer, poet, and journalist
 * Jeremy Seifert, American filmmaker
 * Jim Seifert (born 1956), American politician
 * Johannes Seifert (1915–1943), German Luftwaffe ace
 * Kathi Seifert, American businesswoman
 * Kurt Seifert (1903–1950), German actor
 * Lewis Seifert (born 1962), American academic
 * Manfred Seifert (1949–2005), German football player
 * Maria Seifert (born 1981), German Paralympian athlete
 * Marty Seifert (born 1972), American politician
 * Michael Seifert (disambiguation), multiple people
 * Patrick Seifert (born 1990), German ice hockey player
 * Rainer Seifert (born 1947), German field hockey player
 * Richard Seifert (1910–2001), Swiss British architect
 * Robert Seifert (born 1988), German speed-skater
 * Robert O. Seifert, U.S. National Guard general
 * Rudolf Seifert (born 1934), East German slalom canoer
 * Sandra Seifert (born 1984), Taiwanese fashion model
 * Sebastian Seifert (born 1978), Swedish handballer
 * Shirley Seifert (1888–1971), American historical fiction author
 * Stephen Seifert (born 1973), American folk musician
 * Steve Seifert, American bassist of Groovy Rednecks
 * Steven Seifert (1950–2022), American medical toxicologist
 * Tim Seifert (born 1994), New Zealand cricketer
 * Tim Seifert (footballer) (born 2002), German footballer
 * Toni Seifert (born 1981), German rower
 * Viva Seifert (born 1972), British musician and former gymnast
 * Walter Seifert (1921–1964), German man who attacked a school
 * Werner Seifert (born 1949), Swiss businessman
 * Yvonne Seifert (born 1964), German skier
 * Zbigniew Seifert (1946–1979), Polish jazz violinist

title: Seifert


text:
William Price (Royalist)

William Price (1619–1691) was a Welsh politician who sat in the House of Commons in two periods between 1640 and 1679. He fought as a Royalist colonel in the English Civil War.

Biography
Price was the elder son of John Price of Rhiwlas and his wife Eleanor Jones, daughter of Sir William Jones of Castle March Carnarvonshire. He entered Christ Church, Oxford, on 27 May 1636 aged 16. In November 1640, Price was elected Member of Parliament for Merioneth in the Long Parliament. He was a Colonel in Royal Army in Civil War and was disabled from sitting in parliament in 1644. However he retained the family estate under Oliver Cromwell's protectorate.

On the Restoration, Price was nominated as Knight of the Royal Oak having an estate of £1500 per annum. He was elected MP for Merioneth again in 1677 for the Cavalier Parliament and sat until 1679. He became JP for Flintshire in 1680.

Price died in 1691 and was buried in St Asaph Cathedral.

Family
Price married Mary Holland, daughter of David Holland of Kinmel. His grandson was William Price, High Sheriff of two Welsh counties during the 1730s.

title: William Price (Royalist)


text:
Johann Kaspar Mertz

Joseph Kaspar Mertz (17 August 1806 – 14 October 1856) was a guitarist and composer from the Austrian Empire.

Biography
Caspar Joseph Mertz (baptised Casparus Josephus Mertz) was born in Pressburg, now Bratislava (Slovakia), then the capital of the Kingdom of Hungary and part of the Austrian Empire. He never used his full name when performing or on his publications, preferring only the initials "J. K.". The name "Johann Kaspar" first appeared in the German guitar journal "Der Guitarrefreund" in 1901 and since that time has been incorrectly repeated. In 1900 J. M. Miller used the name "Joseph K. Mertz" for his publication of three previously unpublished manuscripts of Mertz in Three Compositions For Guitar.

He was active in Vienna (c.1840–1856), which had been home to various prominent figures of the guitar, including Anton Diabelli, Mauro Giuliani, Wenceslaus Matiegka and Simon Molitor. As virtuoso, he established a solid reputation as a performer. He toured Moravia, Poland, and Russia, and gave performances in Berlin and Dresden. In 1846 Mertz nearly died of an overdose of strychnine that had been prescribed to him as a treatment for neuralgia. Over the following year he was nursed back to health in the presence of his wife, the concert pianist Josephine Plantin whom he married in 1842. Some speculation may lead one to the conclusion that listening to his wife performing the romantic piano pieces of the day during his period of recovery may have had an influence on the sound and unusual right hand technique he adopted for the Bardenklänge (Bardic Sounds) op. 13 (1847).

Mertz's guitar music, unlike that of most of his contemporaries, followed the pianistic models of Liszt, Chopin, Mendelssohn, Schubert and Schumann, rather than the classical models of Mozart and Haydn (as did Sor and Aguado), or the bel canto style of Rossini (as did Giuliani). Though the date of his birth indicates that that was the logical influence, since Sor was born in 1778, Aguado in 1784 and Giuliani in 1781 while Mertz in 1806, a difference of about 25 years.

The Bardenklänge are probably Mertz's most important contribution to the guitar repertoire (a series of character pieces in the mould of Schumann), together with the great fantasias La rimembranza, Pensée fugitive and Harmonie du soir, considered a trilogy, the most technically demanding pieces written by Mertz, clearly inspired by Liszt's piano music. The portrait of J. K. Mertz first appeared on the cover of Erwin Schwarz-Reiflingen's 1920 book Altmeister der Gitarre: Johann Kaspar Mertz. There was no attribution for the source, but in Schwarz-Reiflingen's commentary he mentions the duo 'Fantasie aus der oper "Elisier d'amour' came as a previously unpublished manuscript from Edward Bayer, Jr., son of the well-known guitarist Edward Bayer. It is possible, yet unconfirmed, that the portrait could also have come from the estate of Edward Bayer. The grayscale reproductions of the portrait have all come from a photo the Japanese guitar collector Jiro Nakano took in the 1970s from a copy of Altmeister der Gitarre: Johann Kaspar Mertz in the collection of Morishige Takei. It was provided to Astrid Stempnik for her dissertation by Masami Kimura. Originals of this book are only known to exist in the Takei Collection (at the Kunitachi College of Music, Tokyo, Japan), Bickford Collection (at California State University, Northridge) and The Danish Music Museum.

Guitar solo

 * Ungarische Vaterlands-Blüthen op. 1 (Vienna: Tobias Haslinger, 1840)
 * Nachtviolen op. 2 (Vienna: Tobias Haslinger, 1840)
 * Zwey Polonaisen und Mazurka op. 3 (Vienna: Tobias Haslinger, 1840)
 * Trois Nocturnes op. 4 (Vienna: Tobias Haslinger, 1840)
 * Cyanen op. 5 (Vienna: Tobias Haslinger, 1840)
 * Le Carneval de Venice. Air varié op. 6 (Vienna: Tobias Haslinger, 1840)
 * Opern-Revue op. 8 (33 numbers) (Vienna: Tobias Haslinger, 1843–56)
 * 6 Ländler op. 9 (Vienna: Tobias Haslinger's Witwe & Sohn, 1844)
 * Introduction et Rondo Brillant op. 11 (Vienna: Tobias Haslinger's Witwe & Sohn, 1844)
 * Erinnerung an Ischl. 6 Ländler op. 12 (Vienna: Tobias Haslinger's Witwe & Sohn, 1846)
 * Barden-Klänge op. 13. A series of pieces separated into 15 Hefte. The first 10 were published in 1847, the next three in 1850. The 12th and 13th contain arrangements by Mertz of Polonaises by Michal Kleofas Oginski. The 14th and 15th were arbitrarily inserted by the publisher of the 1899 edition. Included are H1: An Malvina; Romanze, Andante, H2: Abendlied; Unruhe; Elfenreigen, H3: An die Entfernte; Etude; Capriccio, H4: Gondoliera; Liebeslied, H5: Fingals-Höhle; Gebeth, H6: Tarantelle, H7: Variations Mignonnes, H8: Kindermärchen, H9: Rondino, H10: Romanze, Moderato; Scherzo; Sehnsucht, H11: Lied ohne Worte; Mazurka, H12: Polonaise Favorites du Prince M. Oginski, nos. 1-4, H13: Polonaise Favorites du Prince M. Oginski, nos. 5-7, H14: Romanze; H15: Walzer im Ländlerstyl (Vienna: Tobias Haslinger's Witwe & Sohn, 1847–52; Nos. 14 & 15: Berlin: Schlesinger-Lienau, 1899).
 * Fantasie über 'Linda di Chamounix' (Donizetti) op. 14 (Prague: J. Hoffmann, 1845)
 * Divertissement über 'Don Pasquale' (Donizetti) op. 15 (Prague: J. Hoffmann, 1845)
 * 6 Schubert'sche Lieder (Vienna: Tobias Haslinger's Witwe & Sohn, 1845)
 * Schule für die Guitarre (Vienna: Tobias Haslinger's Witwe & Sohn, 1848)
 * Portefeuille für Guitarre-Spieler. Includes: Martha. Musik von F. Flotow op. 16; Der Prophet. Musik von G. Meyerbeer op. 21; Agathe op. 22; Glockentöne op. 24; Fantaisie über Motive aus der Oper 'Don Juan' [Mozart] op. 28; Das Blümlein op. 34; Nabucco. Musik von G. Verdi op. 62; Rigoletto. Musik von G. Verdi op. 63; Il Trovatore. Musik von G. Verdi op. 86; L'Étoile du nord. Opera de G. Meyerbeer Op. 100 (Munich: Jos. Aibl, 1850–56).
 * Original Steyrer Tänze op. 33 (Munich: Jos. Aibl, 1851)
 * Caprice sur un thème favori de C.M. de Weber op. 50 (Munich: Jos. Aibl, 1852)
 * Kukuk. Musikalische Rundschau (12 numbers) (Munich: Jos. Aibl, 1852–54)
 * Trois Morceaux op. 65. Includes: Fantaisie hongroise; Fantaisie originale; Le Gondolier (Vienna: Charles Haslinger, 1857)
 * El Olé / La Madrilena. Spanische Nationaltänze op. 89 (Munich: Jos. Aibl, n.d.)
 * Concertino (1856), unpublished
 * Pianto dell'amante (Romanze) (Moscow: Jurgenson, 1886)
 * La rimembranza
 * Pensée fugitive
 * Harmonie du soir

Guitar duo
(all written for terz guitar and guitar)

 * Alessandro Stradella (Flotow) op. 51 (Munich: Jos. Aibl, 1851)
 * Nänien. Trauerlieder. Includes: Am Grabe der Geliebten; Ich denke dein; Trauermarsch (originally unpublished; ed. by Simon Wynberg, Heidelberg: Chanterelle, 1985)
 * Vespergang (originally unpublished; first ed. Munich guitar club, 1903; 2nd ed. Heidelberg: Chanterelle, 1985)
 * Unruhe (originally unpublished; Heidelberg: Chanterelle, 1985)
 * Mazurka (originally unpublished; Heidelberg: Chanterelle, 1985)
 * Tarantella (originally unpublished; Heidelberg: Chanterelle, 1985)
 * Der Ball, unpublished
 * Barcarole (Munich guitar club, 1909; Heidelberg: Chanterelle, 1985)
 * Impromptu (St Petersburg, n.d.; Heidelberg: Chanterelle, 1985)
 * Wasserfahrt am Traunsee, unpublished
 * Ständchen (ed. Heidelberg: Chanterelle, 1985)
 * Deutsche Weise (ed. Heidelberg: Chanterelle, 1985)
 * 1re Grande fantaisie concertante 'La Rage', unpublished
 * Fantasie über 'Elisir d'amore' (Donizetti) (ed. by Erwin Schwarz-Reiflingen, Magdeburg: Heinrichshofen, 1920)

Chamber music

 * Divertissement über 'Der Prophet' (Meyerbeer) op. 32 for violin/flute, viola, guitar (Munich: Jos. Aibl, 1851)
 * Mazurka op. 40 for guitar and piano [written with his wife, Josephine Mertz] (Munich: Jos. Aibl, 1852)
 * Barcarole op. 41 for guitar and piano [written with his wife, Josephine Mertz] (Munich: Jos. Aibl, 1852)
 * Divertissement über 'Rigoletto' (Verdi) op. 60 for guitar and piano [written with his wife, Josephine Mertz] (Munich: Jos. Aibl, 1853)
 * Wasserfahrt am Traunsee. Tonstück, for terz guitar and piano (Munich: Jos. Aibl, 1864)
 * Einsiedler's Waldglöcklein. Tonstück, for terz guitar and piano (Munich: Jos. Aibl, 1864)

Songs

 * Beliebte Gesänge mit Begleitung der Guitare [sic!] op. 13 (14 numbers; works by Schubert, Suppé, and Gustav Hölzel in Mertz's arrangement) (Vienna: Tobias Haslinger's Witwe & Sohn, 1847–49)
 * Verlust / Der Zithernschläger (J.G. Seidl) op. 52 (Munich: Jos. Aibl, 1853)

Selected recordings

 * Duo Sonare Plays Giuliani, Sor, Mertz and Coste, performed by Duo Sonare, on: Sound-Star-Ton CD-SST 31110 (CD, 1991). Contains: Unruhe; Vespergang; Deutsche Weise; Impromptu; Trauermarsch; Tarantelle.
 * Bardenklänge, a selection, performed by Richard Savino, on: Harmonia Mundi France 907115 (CD, 1994). Contains the first 8 volumes of Barden-Klänge.
 * Tonstücke. Sämtliche Werke für zwei Gitarren, performed by Duo Favori (Barbara Gräsle, Frank Armbruster), on: Tacet 42 (CD, 1995). Contains (in this order): Deutsche Weise; Der Ball; Ständchen; Nänien; Tarantelle; Verspergang; Mazurka; Wasserfahrt am Traunsee; Barcarola; Unrühe; Impromptu.
 * Guitar Duos, performed by Sonja Prunnbauer and Johannes Tappert, on: Musikproduktion Dabringhaus & Grimm MDG 603 1139-2 (CD, 2002). Contains: Wasserfahrt am Traunsee; Barcarole; Erinnerung an Ungarn I & II; Nänien; Unruhe; Ständchen; Mazurka; Deutsche Weise; Vespergesang; La Rage.
 * Bardenklänge op. 13, performed by Adam Holzman, on: Naxos 8.554556 (CD, 2002). Contains the first 11 volumes of Barden-Klänge except Rondino and Mazurka.
 * Werke für Gitarre / Works for Guitar, performed by Maximilian Mangold, on: Musicaphon MUS 56873 (CD, 2005). Contains: Pianto dell'Amante; Le Romantique; Elegie; Liebeslied; Unruhe; Romanze; Capriccio; Abendlied; Introduction et Rondo brillant; Caprice sur un theme favori de Carl Maria de Weber; Fantasie Hongroise.
 * Guitar Duets, performed by Laura Fraticelli and Johannes Möller, on: Naxos 8.573055 (CD, 2014). Contains (in this order): Unruhe; Nänien; Mazurka; Ständchen; Wasserfahrt am Traunsee; La Rage; Vespergang; Barcarole; Impromptu; Tarantelle; Deutsche Weise.
 * Barden-Klänge, performed by Graziano Salvoni, on: Brilliant Classics 94473 (double CD, 2014). Contains the first 11 volumes of Barden-Klänge.
 * Dances, Nocturnes and Etudes, performed by Graziano Salvoni, on: Brilliant Classics 94653 (double CD, 2014). Contains: Verlands-Blüthen op. 1; Nachtviolen op. 2; Zwey Polonaisen und Mazurka op. 3; Trois Nocturnes op. 4; Cyanen op. 5; 6 Ländler op. 9; Introduction et Rondo Brillant op. 11; Erinnerung an Ischl 6 Ländler op. 12; Übungsstücke nos. 1–15; Walzer im Ländlerstyl; studies (Bojie nos. 387, 389, 391); pieces in Bojie Collection no. 388, 390, 394, 406, 414; 7 waltzes op. posth.
 * Le Romantique, performed by Raphaella Smits, on: Accent ACC 24303 (CD, 2015; recorded 1988–2003). Contains: Harmonie du soir; Le Romantique; Tarantelle op. 13 no. 6; Introduction et Rondeau Brillant op. 11; 6 Schubert'sche Lieder für die Guitare übertragen; Le Carnaval de Venise op. 6; Le Gondolier op. 65 no. 3; Pianto dell'Amante; La Rimembranza; Souvenir de Choulhoff.
 * Mertz: Fantasias for solo guitar, performed by Giuseppe Chiaramonte, on: Brilliant Classics 95722 (2019). Contains: 3 Morceaux op. 65: Fantaisie hongroise, Fantaisie originale, Le Gondolier; Pianto dell’amante; La rimembranza; Pensée fugitive; Harmonie du soir; Fantaisie über “Don Juan” op. 28.

Sheetmusic

 * Boije Collection The Music Library of Sweden
 * Rischel & Birket-Smith's Collection of guitar music 1 Det Kongelige Bibliotek, Denmark
 * George C. Krick Collection of Guitar Music Washington University
 * J. K. Mertz Opern-Revue complete DGA Editions
 * J. K. Mertz Divertissement über Motive der Oper: Der Prophet (Meyerbeer), Op. 32 DGA Editions
 * J. K. Mertz Opern-Revue complete DGA Editions
 * J. K. Mertz Divertissement über Motive der Oper: Der Prophet (Meyerbeer), Op. 32 DGA Editions

title: Johann Kaspar Mertz


text:
Forbidden knowledge

Forbidden knowledge, which is different from secret knowledge, is used to describe forbidden books or other information to which access is restricted or deprecated for political or religious reasons. Forbidden knowledge is commonly not secret, rather a society or various institutions will use repressive mechanisms to either completely prevent the publication of information they find objectionable or dangerous (censorship), or failing that, to try to reduce the public's trust in such information (propaganda). Public repression can create paradoxical situations where the proscribed information is generally common knowledge but publicly citing it is disallowed.

A rich set of examples exist through history. In many cases this resulted in people defending themselves by creating political jokes. Jokes throughout history have been a powerful instrument to undermine state authority and the public truth associated with it.
 * The Roman Catholic church forbids publication of books to which it has not granted Imprimatur.
 * Throughout the years of isolation in Japan and China all Western literature was forbidden.
 * Certain 20th century governments (e.g. communist nations in Eastern Europe and China) placed strong restrictions on foreign publications.
 * In the United States, conservative groups including Jerry Falwell's Moral Majority made several attempts to censor pro civil-rights and feminist works such as Our Bodies, Ourselves.

Sociological and political relevance
Some form of public repression of facts or speculation not desirable to some people or even a majority of the population seems inevitable as societies need to create some common basis of facts to create a unified identity. Critical to political and personal freedom is the level to which this repression is organized through the state or powerful private organizations. Western secular societies have reached the consensus through the late 19th and early 20th centuries that private organizations should not be allowed to engage in compulsory censorship, forcing people to obey their dictates. For example, the separation of church and state in most Western societies mostly prevents religious organizations from repressing individuals based on their personal opinions and beliefs. As well, people are generally allowed to leave employment with a company which may regulate such personal expressions for whatever reason and find employment in less restrictive circumstances.

title: Forbidden knowledge


text:
Talk:Steve Bartman incident

Popular Culture
I Think there should be a section about the incident in popular culture as I remember seeing it on a few television sitcoms, most notably family guy where they imply Stewie convinced Steve Bartman to do it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.105.206.251 (talk) 19:23, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

2012 NLCS Comparison
I added this piece by Glanville because he talks about why he thinks it was unfair to blame Bartman. This was in the section that defends Bartman and criticizes the people who blame him. I don't see why it shouldn't be included. Arnabdas (talk) 17:51, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, I might have been a bit hasty, especially since Glanville himself was on that Cubs team. I did reword some things, to empashize the point I think you wanted to make. Zagal e jo^^^ 18:26, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Section 2 Does Not Exist
The Bartman Seat is listed as Section 2, Row 8, Seat 108. However, there is no section 2 (or 1 for that matter) at Wrigley Field. This is the current alignment. Is it possible someone meant to write section 102 or section 3? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.72.192.192 (talk) 15:52, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Question about summary
Why does the summary state that "several spectators attempted to catch" the foul ball? There is no other part of this article that supports such a statement. The picture used refutes such a claim entirely, showing no one other than Bartman and Alou attempting to catch the ball. Indeed, there are several spectators in the photo who appear to be specifically trying not to catch the ball, shying away for possible fear of interfering with the play.

I recommend that this statement be edited. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BigJackMan (talk • contribs) 19:43, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I've removed "several spectators attempted to catch". Meatsgains (talk) 21:27, 29 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Footage of the incident clearly shows at least one other spectator (the man in the light grey sweater at the left of the photo) also reaching out for the ball. He withdrew his arms a split second before that photo was taken.--Muzilon (talk) 01:55, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Pat Looney
2 fans reached for the ball, not just Bartman. There are a number of articles/interviews with the man in the gray sweater named Pat Looney who reached for the ball right next to & in front of Bartman, but Bartman was closer by less than a foot as it sailed just beyond Looney's reach. They were the only two reaching for it beside Alou and there are plenty of slo-mo YouTube videos confirming this. Looney is shown in full extension until the ball hit Bartman's hands and never withdrew them. This could have just as easily been a Pat Looney article if not for luck of the draw. Why isn't Pat Looney mentioned in this article? PhilOSophocle (talk) 17:22, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Steve Bartman incident


text:
Boris and Natasha: The Movie

Boris and Natasha: The Movie is a 1992 American comedy television film that was loosely based on the animated television series The Rocky and Bullwinkle Show. Although Rocky and Bullwinkle do not appear in this film, they are referenced when two minor characters are revealed to be known also as "Agents Moose and Squirrel" during a climactic scene. This was due to the production company's inability to secure the rights to the animated characters' likenesses for this film. Originally intended for a theatrical release, this film was produced by Management Company Entertainment Group for Showtime Networks, and aired on Showtime on April 17, 1992.

Plot
The movie opens in the tiny country of Pottsylvania, where Fearless Leader concocts a plan to obtain a time-reversal microchip, invented by Professor Anton Paulovitch. He asks his top agent, Agent X, to find the professor, but Agent X suggests they send some patsies instead. Boris Badenov and Natasha Fatale accept the assignment and are told to defect to America. After a number of failed attempts, they arrive in America. The head of the CIA, Sheldon Kaufman, decides to have tests run on them to see if they are truly defecting. After the test, it's obvious to everyone that they should be deported, but a worker, Willie, points out they hadn't had any defections in a while, and thinks they should play along and spy on them in the meantime to see what they are after.

Boris and Natasha are given an apartment and money, while being secretly watched by Agent X, who himself is being followed by a mysterious figure. The duo have to meet with a secret assassin named Kalishak, who supposedly knows who they should seek, but first have to deal with their next-door neighbors, Toots and Harve, who are very interested in knowing about them. Toots assumes Boris and Natasha are a couple, and when Natasha denies it, Toots figures she's wrong. Natasha, who has become fascinated with America, also learns from Toots that American couples usually help each other, something Boris and Natasha do not.

They find Kalishak, who denies that he knows anything about the professor. After accepting a bribe, Kalishak acts as a shoe-shine boy and tells Boris "Search your sole," which Boris doesn't understand. After they leave, one of Kalishak's potatoes is replaced with a bomb, killing him. Natasha later sees information written on the sole of Boris' shoe, telling them to find "Minelli". Disguised as rug cleaners, they go to the location on the shoe, where they learn that the "Minelli" they're looking for is Sal Minelli, a photographer. Natasha then gets an offer for a photo shoot and a party, which Boris figures will be a good opportunity to meet Minelli. To pass the time before the party they go shopping at a mall, but the next day Natasha returns, going shopping with Toots, behind Boris' back. She learns that Toots doesn't need Harve's permission to do things, and learns more about their married life. Boris says a code phrase to many photographers, to no avail, before not being allowed in, but Natasha soon hits celebrity status.

Boris gets annoyed at Natasha for acting like such a celebrity, especially since Fearless Leader had ordered them to keep a low profile. But Natasha remembers what Toots had told her, and points out that she's been responsible for Boris' success before leaving for the party. Boris starts to feel bad about their argument, while at the party Natasha keeps seeing Boris. She leaves the party, and finds Boris sleeping outside.

Minelli calls their home and arranges a photo session with Natasha. It turns out Minelli is a spy, and they are being spied on by Kaufman, Agent X, and the man who had been following Agent X. He informs her that Fearless Leader had sent them as patsies and that they'll be killed when they find the professor. Just when he's about to tell her the name of Agent X, Agent X kills Minelli. Boris, disguised as a cop, finds out that Agent X is actually Willie. Boris and Natasha leave their apartment right as an assassination attempt on them occurs. Disguised as overweight Irishmen, they stay at a hotel, where they find Willie dead, and also find that he had an 11:30 train schedule. They leave with Willie, intent on hiding his body, but they encounter Harve and Toots attending a party at the hotel, and convince them Willie has had too many drinks. Boris and Natasha eventually send Willie's body down a laundry chute, only to remember that they had left the train schedule at the hotel room. When they get back, they see Paulovitch, who's revealed to be the one who'd been following Agent X. He asks that they discuss the chip, which Boris and Natasha still know nothing about, but Toots and Harve suddenly arrive with Willie's body, which they decided to return him to them. When questioned about being at a hotel when they have an apartment, they claim that they are there for relationship counseling. Once Toots and Harve are gone, they find Paulovitch missing, along with the train schedule.

They chase after Paulovitch, eventually catching a taxi, where they see Paulovitch and question him, who claims he doesn't know what they are talking about. Boris then discovers lit dynamite in the taxi, and that the driver is actually a dummy. The car explodes, but the explosion reverses. After a few explosions and reverses, they jump out of the taxi. Paulovitch tells them about the time-reversing chip and reveals that that was his first life-and-death experiment with it. He explains that his evil twin brother Kreeger is also after the chip. Boris and Natasha decide to help make sure it doesn't fall into the wrong hands. However, Paulovitch gets kidnapped, but Boris and Natasha find a penny, which they instantly see as a clue. They go to Mount Rushmore, where they notice a ladder going into Lincoln's nose.

There, they find Paulovitch's secret laboratory. They discover millions of time-reverse microchips, and find Anton tied up. He tells them he was kidnapped by Kreeger, but then they learn that he is in fact Kreeger, while Anton is tied up. They learn that once Anton realized the microchip could be disastrous in the wrong hands, he tried to destroy it, only for its effect to protect it from destruction, so he had them mass-produced with the intention of sending them to every country with the goal of ending wars. Kaufman enters and reveals that he's not actually working for the government, but the auto industry and insurance companies, and knows that the chip could put an end to his business. Harve and Toots then show up with guns, and reveal themselves to be Agents Moose and Squirrel. Fearless Leader shows up and takes over, taking the pile of microchips. After Natasha manages to temporarily disable the power, a fight ensues. Boris takes out a stick of dynamite, which he was "saving for a rainy day", and throws it at the pile of microchips, which sends them back to the very beginning of the movie. Knowing what will happen, Boris realizes that Fearless Leader must know what will happen as well, so Boris decides they will go to Tahiti (a place Natasha had earlier expressed desire to visit) instead. When Paulovitch realizes that he hadn't been properly introduced to them, Boris introduces Natasha as his girlfriend.

The narrator wonders aloud if they really are safe from the danger they had avoided by going to Tahiti, asking all kinds of questions, before Boris tells him to shut up. The narrator then tells viewers to tune in to their next episode, "'Goodbye Mr. Chip', or 'The Megabytes Back!'"

Production
Screenwriter Charles Fradin wrote the initial treatment and brought it to producer Jonathan D. Krane who greenlit the project on the condition his wife, Sally Kellerman, play Natasha. After negotiating with creator Jay Ward for the rights to the characters, the screenplay went through 20 revisions. At Kellerman's suggestion, Dave Thomas was cast as Natasha's counterpart Boris. Charles Martin Smith was given the position of director with Thomas' help, and Smith was enthused about the project as his father was an animator and he grew up with fond memories of the Jay Ward produced cartoons. Using his connections as a talent agent, Krane was able to secure John Travolta and John Candy for cameos in the film. The film began shooting in September 1988. Following a test screening where audience reaction to the film was negative with particular confusion at the humor and pacing of the film, the filmmakers spent 18 months trying to re-edit the film to make it work. According to Thomas, a number of scenes were never shot, which made it impossible to properly edit the film.

Home media
The film was released on VHS in December 1992 by Academy Entertainment and on DVD from Platinum Disc in 1999. The DVD contained no bonus material. MGM later re-released it on DVD on June 26, 2012, as part of their "Limited Edition Collection".

Cast
June Foray, the original voice of Natasha and Rocky from the Rocky and Bullwinkle Show, makes a cameo appearance as a woman who wants Natasha's autograph.

title: Boris and Natasha: The Movie