text:
Talk:Ruby character

Katakana for Tokyo
Though it serves as an example of one kind of ruby usage, I wonder if the katakana ruby for Tokyo is a practical example. Since the word Tokyo is not a foreign word, katakana is inappropriate. Since I don't know too much Japanese, I am curious to know the answer. Any taker? Kowloonese 03:20, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * Sometimes, furigana for kun-yomi is written in hiragana, while furigana for on-yomi is written in katakana.   — Gwalla | Talk 18:30, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * So are you saying the opposite is ture? Since Tokyo is on-yomi, it should not be using hiragana in the Ruby.  i.e. one of the two examples is bad practice.  Kowloonese 18:38, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * No, neither is bad practice. They just have different uses. --Marnen Laibow-Koser (talk) 20:37, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Firefox support?
The ruby characters showed up in my version of Mozilla Foxfire v.0.9.2 for MS Windows, so the support must have been added. gK 15:34, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Can someone confirm this please? Chameleon 15:45, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I have the most recent version of Firefox (1.0). I deleted the Koan plug-in in order to see if Firefox could handle the Ruby by itself, and it couldn't.  I'm going to have to reinstall Koan now.  Chameleon 22:21, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia complex ruby support
The article says that Wikipedia doesn't support complex ruby. How can this be? AFAIK, Wikipedia supports (i.e. doesn't interfere with) any and all legitimate HTML constructs. Why should there be a difference here? --Marnen Laibow-Koser (talk) 20:38, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It really can't. See it yourself:

10 31 2002 Month Day Year Expiration Date

--minghong 08:38, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Weird. I did some testing in the Sandbox and found that apparently Wikipedia doesn't recognize that  is legitimate markup, so it converts the < > to &lt; &gt; -- which of course kills the tag. I suppose we can expect this to be fixed in a future release from MediaWiki... --Marnen Laibow-Koser (talk) 15:11, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

ruby in Chinese
the ruby thing is entirely a Japanese thing. In Chinese texts, one only see it in grade-school materials or dictionaries. The many places implies its use in Chinese really should be taken out.

Xah Lee 11:12, 2005 Mar 1 (UTC)

 * Ruby is a useful tool for teaching Chinese. — Chameleon 19:22, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * It is used elsewhere in Chinese. In Buddhist texts, as a pronunciation aid (and through an entire book of mine), for example. Especially Taiwan, as you might expect.Apeman 03:30, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I just lived in "mainland" China for three years, and only saw "ruby" used in kids books when they first learned to read. Maybe it's common in Taiwan or in certain subject areas such as Buddhist texts, but the article to me implies it's common in both mainland China and Taiwan for every day use in newspapers, books, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.1.105.42 (talk) 22:21, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I have a book of Buddhist text which was published in Mainland China. And yes it has Hanyu Pinyin ruby text (since many characters are not read in the usual way). The usage of ruby text outside this and kids books is rare here, though. --Ahyangyi (talk) 15:20, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Ruby markup on Wikipedia
There is a template to facilitate the use of ruby markup on Wikipedia.

Input:

You'll see:.

In addition, links to Wiktionary definitions are automatically added to each Han character. To make the text legible, the font size is a little larger than usual. This template is therefore not for in-line text.

If larger characters are necessary, then input:

You'll see:

Put Ruby_notice on any pages with ruby text. — Chameleon 19:22, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Very interesting! However, it is coded to produce text for Chinese renderings only, and it uses explicit font selection rather than just giving the browser cues via HTML "lang" attributes, which I think would be the better way to go about it. I would rather see something more versatile before adding info about the templates to the article. — mjb 21:29, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * 。

 * Seems to work fine for Japanese to me. — Chameleon 21:40, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * It is my understanding that some East Asian readers are very sensitive to font selection, and do not like to see Chinese text rendered in a Japanese font, or vice-versa. Unicode does not distinguish between 京 and 京, but they are often "seen" as Japanese and Chinese, respectively (the two glyphs should appear slightly different here). Often the differences are subtle, but a hook or tail here, an pointed stroke there, were (and still are) points of contention in the Han unification process.

 * I would rather see an optional argument to specify the language code (, ,  , etc.). For example,   would produce something like  . Explicitly specifying fonts should not be necessary. — mjb 00:41, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Template:Ruby currently specifies a font for the transcription (because Pinyin tone marks don't work in all fonts) but no font is specified for the Han character. It is left for the browser to decide automatically.  — Chameleon 01:02, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * OK, I've made a Japanese version: Furi. Ruby can now be just for Chinese.  — Chameleon 01:16, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I think language-specific templates like that are probably ideal. As for what they should contain, font-wise, perhaps we should solicit opinions from people who have contributed to other articles such as Han unification and Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)… I suspect there will have to be some compromises between doing "what's right" and "what works." — mjb 01:41, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I think the choice of names for the templates Furi and Ruby are not good. Furigana can be done in romaji, hiragana or katagana. Chinese annotation can be done in pinyin or bopomofo, their font requirement may be different too.  Probably the Ruby template should be left as generic while each kind of ruby usage requires a different template for better font control.  Kowloonese 02:13, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)
 * Note: I changed the uses of the (deprecated?) Ruby template above to Ruby-zh-p or Ruby-ja to avoid the message "The template below (Ruby) is being considered for deletion. See templates for discussion to help reach a consensus." from messing stuff up, hope that's ok. --Kai Carver (talk) 16:43, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

The words "Ruby" and "Furi" don't refer to the fact that the annotation is romaji, hiragana, katakana, pinyin or bopomofo. "Furi" just refers to the Japanese word for such annotations; "Ruby" just refers to a non-Japanese word for such annotations. The only difference at the moment between the templates is the language tags. — Chameleon 10:55, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Add Chinese chars
Give kanji and hanzi for Japanese and Chinese terms.

"Zhuyin is not as easy to read when presented horizontally.": Say why. Substantiate your claims.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.201.31.246 (talk • contribs)

Moved from Talk:Ruby characters -- ran (talk) 22:24, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Agate?
I took out this sentence from the first paragraph:

 * At one time, ruby was called "agate" in the United States.

as this is referring to ruby the typeface, not ruby the 'small, annotative characters that can be placed above or to the side of a character when writing logographic languages such as Chinese or Japanese to show the pronunciation'. If you are unaware that rubi characters are ultimately named after an annotative typeface for English, then this is really confusing as it jumps from one meaning to another. The typeface is talked about further down in the History section. — Moogsi 20:36, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Tho if you think the typeface deserves a better place in the article then please put it back in the first paragraph. But distinguishing it from the Japanese meaning, cos I had to go to Agate and back to know it was referring to a font. — Moogsi 20:47, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Four-character idiom
The Ruby notation on Four-character idiom seems to be working incorrectly. Can someone take a look? Shawnc 01:30, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

 * The examples sections look fine to me. IE6/Win32 renders them nicely. Firefox 1.5.0.4/Win32 doesn't support ruby markup, so it "falls back" to parenthesized text as expected (since HTML renderers are supposed to ignore tags they don't recognize). What were you observing that was incorrect? —mjb 07:51, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

furigana
What's the difference between ruby characters and furigana? —Tamfang 19:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

This question is answered in the articles. —mjb 07:46, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
 * ruby = small typographic annotations adjacent to the main text.
 * furigana = ruby as used in Japanese writing, usually to provide a phonetic spelling for kanji that might be unfamiliar to the reader (because the reader is very young, or the kanji is very obscure). It is one of the more common uses of ruby, but not the only one.

Ruby Usage In Japanese Generally Frowned Upon On Wikipedia?
Well, at least according to WP:MOS-JA → "Do not use the tag to further annotate the kanji, as many browsers cannot display it properly, and it does not degrade gracefully." Evidently that's a codified guideline among Japanese Wiki-editors, and it was subsequently cited in an ongoing discussion/dispute as a reason for me to remove said helpful and clarifying hiragana ruby tags from a mangaka's name in kanji on a Wikipedia article. What does everyone here think; agree or disagree?

– Bakemono 04:51, 01 July 2006 (UTC)

It is posible to have acceptable output in all navigators by using the the following CSS code (should be added as default in wikipedia CSS imho):

ruby{ display:inline-table; text-align:center; white-space:nowrap;} ruby>rb{display:table-row-group;} ruby>rt{display:table-header-group;font-size:40%;} ruby>rp{display:none;}

on navigators with proper CSS support (like firefox), it would display with furigana on top, and parenthesis won't show; with navigators without proper CSS support (like konqueror) it will show on the same line, with the parenthesis. with MS-IE it works fine too (but I don't know if because of the CSS or the ruby support; well, doesn't matter), with the exception that the ruby text is not centered.

Srtxg 13:49, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

 * The use of the word "mangaka" certainly shows your affinity for using Japanese words in place of equivalent English ones, so your desire to uphold the usage of Japanese text is understandable by extension. Have you considered the potential that writing a name fully in kanji then with its furigana in following parentheses would be easier to look up in a search, instead of splitting up the furigana in markup? Do what's better for text searching, and you know which method to use. You should just use ruby on outside websites.--75.18.163.141 08:11, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I do see that as a good idea myself, and it would look a lot better that way. There are also quite a few other good points here as well. I have taken a single year of Japanese and am going to take one next year, but kanji was never really gone over in the first year of it—the instructor said that it would be more of a focus the second year. IMO it is harder to search for something in kanji than in furigana, unless you have a lot of experience with a Japanese IME (in which I only have a little). One thing to note is that I don't really do much of anything in that area (I've looked up a couple articles in that scope, but that is about the end of it). impinball (talk) 06:02, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

XHTML Markup
Is it possible to code basic ruby so that it doesn't show up at all when the browser lacks support? I'm trying to write a document with ruby support, but I would rather not have all of the parentheses appearing for users without ruby support. Anybody know? (This is not related to Wikipedia!) freshofftheufo  ΓΛĿЌ  11:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Not a language lesson
I understand that this is not a language lesson, but the example of 愛 (love) is important. We should not focus on writing in an in-universe style, and the information informs people who are not familiar with the subject. If we need to shorten the example, can we merge the information with another section in this article or add it to a different article and then a relevant lead–in and wikilink, for the reader to lean more? Taric25 19:02, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

 * The examples are there to be brief illustrations of the info given in the intro. They show the 2 most common situations: pronunciation guides in Japanese and Chinese -- certainly not the only uses of ruby, but that's clear from the text, which says these are usual/typical applications. The intro plus those examples are all someone needs to come away with an understanding of what ruby is. More detailed info and, if we want, further examples about how ruby is used belongs in the Uses of ruby section, which the reader can look at if they want to learn about those relatively esoteric details. Your 愛 (love) example falls into that category.

 * However, I don't think the text around that example is written well, and it doesn't really belong. The point is to explain what ruby is, not what it could be or what it is not. Yet you have speculation (a big no-no in Wikipedia) -- an example of how ruby could be used and why people "theoretically" might want to use it that way, and you try to explain, in argumentative terms, why that situation is unlikely. That's a waste of the reader's time, and the detail about man'yōgana is going off on a further tangent that isn't relevant to ruby at all.

 * If it were to stay, which I feel it really shouldn't, then you need to rewrite it. Ditch the "first of all", "second of all", and "thus"; those should've been clues that you're not writing in an informative style, but rather you're trying to make a logical argument / trying to persuade the reader. Don't make a statement that you set out to contradict with "but this isn't always the case" or argue against, because then it's unclear what your point really is. And if you find that you're writing in such a way that the reader has to get all the way to the end before you've made your point, then you need to start over. The paragraph should begin with the conclusion / the point being made, then continue with an explanation. —mjb 03:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I agree that the ai example is irrelevant and the paragraph after it rambling, and suggest it be deleted. Jpatokal 02:14, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Graphs in Text Boxes Incorrect
I'd fix it myself if I knew how, but in the boxes with the characters in the section near the top, the "tō" of "Tokyo" and the "ai" character are wrong in all cases--unless it's my browser or something, but I think not. Can anyone fix that?Apeman 03:35, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Just wanted to declare that Korean uses rubies aussi. Orthodoxy

Pinyin and zhuyin
"Most Chinese ruby characters are written with the zhuyin (also known as bopomofo) syllabary, but pinyin is also occasionally used."

This is probably biased, and I'm wondering if there is any evidence that testifies "most". Actually pinyin is much more widely used in mainland China, esp. in primary school textbooks, dictionaries and when typing Chinese characters. Those zhuyin symbols are not taught in schools and most mainlanders have never used them. Puppy8800 (talk) 04:26, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Ruby annotation in HTML 5
It should be noted that as of 22 Sep 2009 HTML 5 is an Editor's Draft. (ref: HTML5: A vocabulary and associated APIs for HTML and XHTML, World Wide Web Consortium, URL = http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#the-ruby-element) It appears that HTML 5 will not support complex ruby. -- allen四names 03:23, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Any particular reason why the upcoming HTML standard is not even mentioned in this article, while obsolete XHTML 1.1 is?87.162.29.223 (talk) 05:33, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
 * XHTML 1.1 is not obsolete; like HTML 4.01, it's a current recommendation and is actively used in XML applications, e.g. for storing HTML fragments in XML used by web content generation systems. HTML5 probably isn't mentioned in the article just due to relative lack of interest (not a lot of people even see this article), and maybe also the WP:SPECULATION policy which discourages writing about future events. You might be WP:BOLD and add a mention of it to the markup section anyway, carefully worded to avoid implying that HTML5 will ever be completed. —mjb (talk) 08:40, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I would like to add a section on HTML 5 support of the <ruby>, <rt>, and <rb> tags in Safari, Chrome, FireFox and IE. At the present time, most of these browsers handle all of the tests for "Simple ruby" (but fail the multi-line/complex tests.)  http://www.w3.org/International/tests/tests-html-css/list-ruby.  Would there be any objection to adding a small section under the existing XHTML 1.1 section?  Don.Kosak (talk) 17:58, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Definition too specific
The current definition has problems, probably because it began as a description of a specific Japanese use, and what's being defined has become more general over time:

'' Ruby characters are small, annotative glosses that can be placed above or to the right of a Chinese character when writing languages with logographic characters such as Chinese or Japanese to show the pronunciation. Typically called just ruby or rubi, such annotations are usually used as a pronunciation guide for relatively obscure characters.''
 * though ruby annotations may have originated with Japanese (or Chinese or Korean), they can be used for any kind of text, and are specified in this more general way on the web. So the meaning of the term is now broader, and the definition should reflect that, even if the original and most common use in Asian texts should be acknowledged.
 * "ruby characters"? "ruby annotations" seems better. or "ruby text".
 * ruby annotations aren't just used for pronunciation. They can be used to indicate meaning, or for some other annotation purpose. "often" would be better than "usually".
 * does anyone outside Japan call them "rubi"? The use of "ruby" by itself as a noun is a bit strange to me, but not unheard of?
 * it seems wrong to call them "glosses", since that term relates more specifically to meaning, not so much to pronunciation. Also "annotative glosses" sounds unnecessarily technical.
 * the title of the article is "Ruby character", but this term doesn't make sense to me, since a ruby annotation can be composed of several characters. I don't think this is a common use and it shouldn't be the title of this article.

I'm putting this up here for discussion before making any changes as I am no expert on the subject. Also I feel a bit lazy to make so many changes :-) --Kai Carver (talk) 17:33, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

 * I'm curious about the breadth of this term too. If we're just talking about uses regarding Chinese & Japanese, then the stuff regarding the Bible, for instance, should be moved elsewhere (to Interlinear glossing, maybe?). babbage (talk) 23:25, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

pinyin ruby
does pinyin ruby plugin for Web browsers exist?

Ruby the Language
As Ruby the programming language also came from Japan I can't but help think there could be a link here? Does anybody know? Mathmo Talk 06:47, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Safari support
Markup example in the article is rendered fine in Safari 4.1.3 (Mac OS 10.4.11). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.63.83.181 (talk) 10:20, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Relation to rubric?
I was under the impression that ruby characters had their origin in rubrics, particularly as described in Rubric:
 * "...rubric has a second meaning of an instruction in a text, regardless of how it is written or printed. This is in fact the oldest recorded meaning in English, found in 1375."

Rubrics were typically printed in red ink, hence the etymological relation to ruby.

Does anyone know more about this? Does it merit mention in the article body? -- Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 18:55, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

 * As noted in Ruby character, the name is from the traditional point-size name, not from the gemstone. I don't think they are related. --Kusunose 04:37, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

 * To expand a bit, a rubric often is an "interlinear annotations in printed documents", which is what the 5.5-point ruby type was used for. What I dimly recall reading is that the name for the type size came from this use for printing rubric text, but I cannot remember in sufficient detail to add to the article.  -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 07:10, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

The article on Furigana states that it is "one type of Ruby." This article, however, does not seem to make any clear distinction between Ruby and Furigana. The Furigana article does not contain some of the technical aspects/uses of Ruby. Does it need to be made clear that this is the distinction between the two articles?Opaanderson (talk) 01:26, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Remove discussion of japanese gemination marker ("little tsu") in uses section
This portion is entirely unhelpful and seems not to be discussing ruby at all. Also, having looked at the document it cites, at least quickly, nowhere is the little tsu mentioned at all. However, I'm new to editing wikipedia and I don't know the policy for removing portions outright - what should be done here? Telmac (talk) 15:22, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Similar but equal
Is there a font tool which similarly allows 1 line of text to be written atop another line of text, but where they are of equal size instead of small on big like ruby? Or perhaps to have big on small as its inverse? If there is, I am wondering if I could do an article for them in the see also. Ranze (talk) 21:20, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

 * Newline —ajf (talk) 18:04, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Ruby character


text:
Younkers

Younkers Inc. is an American online retailer and former department store chain founded as a family-run dry goods business in 1856 in Keokuk, Iowa. The retailer had evolved over more than 150 years to include a presence in locations throughout Iowa and bordering states in the Midwest region of the United States. It is pronounced yong-kers. Younkers became influential as it acquired several rivals throughout the 20th century both inside and outside of Iowa. The chain itself was sold by the late 1990s, with ownership transferring out of state, and its Des Moines-based headquarters closed by 2003 as a part of a corporate consolidation. Following its last sale in 2006, Younkers operated as a subsidiary of The Bon-Ton, with locations in seven Midwestern states, primarily in shopping malls. the chain operated more than fifty locations in the region. On August 29, 2018, Younkers closed its doors one last time. A Younkers Store in Piqua, Ohio Closed in October 26, 2019 but reopened in August 3, 2022. It is still open today.

Beginnings
The company was founded by three Polish Jewish immigrant brothers Lipman, Samuel, and Marcus Younker, who opened a general store in Keokuk, Iowa, in 1856. Herman Younker, a younger half-brother to the three founders, opened a dry goods store in Des Moines, Iowa, in 1874. Following Samuel's death in 1879, the Keokuk store was closed and the Des Moines location became the main store. The future novelist and newspaper editor Eleanor Hoyt Brainerd worked as a clerk at the Younkers store in Des Moines in 1889. In 1899 the Younker brothers' main store in downtown Des Moines was moved to 7th and Walnut Streets, and it operated at the same location for 106 years before closing on August 12, 2005. The downtown Des Moines store became known for its Tea Room restaurant, which opened in 1913 and closed shortly before the store did. It also installed Iowa's first escalator, known as the "electric stairs," in 1939.

Younkers Incorporated
A series of additions, enlargements, and mergers resulted in the company changing its name to Younkers Incorporated. The department store in downtown Des Moines was purchased in 1912. The company started growing in the 1920s by acquiring other department stores throughout Iowa, including Wilkins Department Stores (1923), Harris-Emery (1927), and J. Mandelbaum and Sons (1928). The Iowa-based retailers Brintnall's of Marshalltown and Davidson's of Sioux City were acquired in 1948 and Yetters of Iowa City was acquired in 1949. Younkers began expanding outside of Iowa during the 1950s and opened its first shopping mall store in Omaha, Nebraska, in 1955. (It acquired another Omaha department store, Kilpatrick's, in 1961.) By 1978 Younkers had 28 stores in five states.

Fires
In November 1978, a fire broke out in the Younkers store in the Merle Hay Mall in Des Moines, killing 11 people. To date, it is the most devastating fire in Des Moines' history, and destroyed the original Younkers at the mall. It is also the third deadliest department store fire in US history. The fire was caused by faulty wiring.

In the early hours of March 29, 2014, a fire ravaged the former Younker Brothers Department Store in downtown Des Moines while it was under renovation. The eastern, original 1899 building partially collapsed in the fire and was demolished; the western 1909 Wilkins Department Store building, that Younker's had expanded into in 1924, was still standing and undergoing renovation.

Acquisitions of Brandeis and H.C. Prange
Younkers was operated by the Equitable of Iowa insurance company from 1979 to 1992 after being a publicly traded company since 1948. Under Equitable's ownership, Younkers acquired all 11 locations of the Omaha-based Brandeis department store chain in 1987. After returning to public ownership on the NASDAQ on April 22, 1992, Younkers purchased the 22 stores of the H.C. Prange chain in Wisconsin and Michigan.

Acquisition by Proffitt's
After a hostile takeover bid by Carson Pirie Scott was rejected in 1995, Younkers' shareholders agreed to a friendly merger by Proffitt's, Inc., of Knoxville, Tennessee. The merger was completed in December 1996. Proffitt's would later acquire Carson Pirie Scott, and in 1998 Proffitt's acquired Saks Fifth Avenue to form Saks Incorporated. In 2003, Saks closed Younkers' headquarters in Des Moines and merged its operations with those of Carson Pirie Scott in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

Sale to The Bon-Ton
Saks sold Younkers and its other Northern Department Store Group stores (Carson Pirie Scott, Bergner's, Boston Store, and Herberger's) to Bon-Ton Stores in a $1.1 billion (~$ in ) deal that was completed on March 6, 2006.

On January 31, 2018, Bon-Ton announced that they were going to close 42 locations nationwide including 9 in the state of Wisconsin between February and April 2018.

It was further announced on April 17, 2018 that Bon Ton Stores would be closing doors and began liquidating all 267 stores after two liquidators, Great American Group and Tiger Capital Group, won an auction for the company. The bid was estimated to be worth $775.5 million. This included all remaining Younkers locations after 162 years of operation. According to national retail reporter Mitch Nolen, stores closed within 10 to 12 weeks. On August 29, 2018, Younkers closed its doors and shut down.

Sale to BrandX.com, Inc
On September 10, 2018, of Merrillville, Indiana-based CSG Generation acquired all trademark and intellectual property assets of The Bon-Ton (York, Pa.). Subsequently, in early 2021, CSC Generation sold all the acquired assets of Bon-Ton to New York-based BrandX.com in a private sale.

In May 2022 BrandX.com announced that Younkers would reopen with a physical location in 2023.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Younkers


text:
Johanan bar Nappaha

 * See Johanan (name) for more rabbis by this name.

Johanan bar Nappaha (יוחנן בר נפחא Yoḥanan bar Nafḥa; alt. sp. Napaḥa) (also known simply as Rabbi Yochanan, or as Johanan bar Nafcha) (lived 180-279 CE) was a leading rabbi in the early era of the Talmud. He belonged to the second generation of amoraim.

Johanan's opinion is quoted thousands of times across the Jerusalem and Babylonian Talmuds. The compilation of the Jerusalem Talmud is generally ascribed to him.

Name
He is generally cited as "Johanan," but sometimes by his cognomen only, which he himself uses once; but he is never cited by both together.

Opinions vary on whether "bar Nappaha" (literally "son [of the] blacksmith") derives from his father's profession, from the name of his ancestral region, or perhaps represents a physical or psychological quality.

Early years
Johanan's early years were spent in Sepphoris in the Roman-ruled Galilee (then part of Syria Palaestina province). He traced his descent from the tribe of Joseph. His father, a blacksmith, died prior to his birth, and his mother died soon after; he was raised by his grandfather in Sepphoris.

Judah ha-Nasi took the boy under his wing and taught him Torah. Due to the disparity in ages, though—Johanan was only fifteen years old when Judah died—Johanan was not one of Judah's prime students; rather, he studied more under Judah's students. It is said that initially he sat seventeen rows behind Abba Arikha in the school taught by Judah, and could not comprehend the discussions. In later life, Johanan recalled teachings that he had gleaned from the early Sages who moved to Usha. Hanina bar Hama taught him homiletic Bible interpretation—except of the books of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes —and probably medicine, in which he became skilled.

He studied Torah diligently all his life, even selling a field house and an olive shed that he had inherited from his parents in order to be able to devote his time to study. As he expressed it, he exchanged the things that God created in six days for the things the delivery of which required forty days. After that was spent, he lived a life of poverty. For some time, he was compelled to work to support himself. But soon he felt impelled to return to his school, where he earned, not without a struggle, the encomiums of his masters. At last, owing to the universal homage paid to him, the patriarch accorded him a pension, and soon a lecturer's place was found for him.

Leadership
In Sepphoris, Johanan quickly became popular for his lectures, with crowds flocking to hear him. However, Johanan moved to Tiberias at some point before Hanina's death. The two had disagreed on two points of ritual, and Johanan, not wishing to oppose his master at his home, decided to move. It is doubtful whether they ever met again. However, Johanan maintained close relations with his other teachers to the end of their days. This was particularly the case with Hoshaiah Rabbah. He, too, moved from Sepphoris to Caesarea, where he opened a college and whither Johanan often went from Tiberias to consult him on difficult problems. Johanan continued these visits during the last 13 years of Hoshaiah's life, but they were merely social visits, Johanan no longer needing Hoshaiah's help: "He that pays his respects to his teacher is considered as one waiting on the Divine Presence".

"Rabbi Johanan was sitting [and] reading in the synagogue of the Babylonians in Sepphoris. There passed in front of him a governor [with the rank of] Minister, but he (R. Johanan) did not stand up before him. They sought to have him beaten. He (the governor) said to them: 'Leave him alone. He was busy in what concerns the law (custom) of his Creator'."

In the 3rd-century CE, Johanan officiated in the synagogue of Maon and was called to render a decision in the case of a ritual slaughterer (shochet) who had improperly slaughtered a chicken and whether or not he was to be held liable on that account. Johanan opened an academy in Tiberias, and let anybody in if they wanted to learn, a controversial move at the time. The academy soon drew large numbers of gifted students, native and foreign, among them Abbahu, Rabbi Ammi, Rabbi Assi, Eleazar ben Pedat, Hiyya bar Abba, Jose bar Hanina, Shimon bar Abba, and Rabbi Isaac Nappaha. As many of his disciples accepted and taught his decisions, and as he himself visited and lectured at other places, his fame spread far and wide. In the Diaspora, whither his teachings were carried by his students, his authority was almost as great as in his native land, and few contemporary scholars in Babylonia opposed him. Johanan himself recognized no foreign authority except that of Rav, his senior schoolmate under Judah haNasi. Johanan kept up a correspondence with Rav, and addressed him as "our master in Babylonia." After Rav's death Johanan wrote to Rav's colleague Samuel of Nehardea, but addressed him as "our colleague in Babylonia." Samuel sent him a complete calendar covering the intercalations for a period of sixty years; Johanan, however, admitted merely that Samuel was a good mathematician. But when Samuel transmitted to him a mass of disquisitions on the dietary laws, Johanan exclaimed, "I still have a master in Babylonia!" He even resolved to pay him a visit, but rumor made him believe that Samuel had in the meantime died. Johanan was long considered the greatest rabbi in the Land of Israel, and after the deaths of Rav and Samuel, the greatest authority recognized by Babylonian Jews as well. Because of the principle of halacha k'battra'i (the halachic ruling being according to the rabbi with the latest ordination from the Land of Israel in those days, felt to be uninterrupted from the direct line from the Sanhedrin), he is quoted so many times and one will notice that every 'participant' in that discussion attempts to align themselves with his opinion. In a sense, once his name is mentioned in a discussion on halachic ruling, it 'kills the discussion', as his ruling are considered final.

Personal details
Johanan is the subject of many stories. He treated his servants with great kindness: "Did not He that made me in the womb make him?" He was blessed with many children, but lost ten sons. The last one is said to have died by falling into a caldron of boiling water. The bereft father preserved a joint of the victim's little finger, which he exhibited to mourners in order to inspire resignation. "This is a bone from the body of my tenth son," he would say. However, he himself was not resigned at the death of his brother-in-law Shimon ben Lakish, his fellow amora, whom he affectionately called "my counterpart". He mourned for him long and deeply, weeping often and crying, "Bar Lakish, where art thou? O Bar Lakish! " At last he became melancholy, and for three years and a half could not attend his college; but it seems that he finally recovered his health and resumed his labors.

It is said that Johanan had an agreeable presence and a pleasing disposition; he was considered kind and considerate to the stranger as well as to his brethren; to the non-observant as to the pious; to the am ha'aretz as to the haver; for this he was beloved by his teachers and honored by all.

He is believed to have never left Israel in all his life, a rare feat for rabbis in those days, who frequently visited Babylonia.

He was known for being healthy and beautiful, and reportedly lived more than one hundred years. The Talmud relates of him: "He that wishes to see the beauty of Rabbi Johanan, let him bring a silver chalice when it comes out of the silversmith's refinery, and let him fill it with the red kernels of a pomegranate, and then let him adorn the chalice around its brim with red roses, and then place it between the sunlight and the shade. The emanating radiance would be somewhat similar to the beauty of Rabbi Johanan." He was accustomed to sit outside the mikveh in the evening, saying: "Let the daughters of Israel look at me when they come up from the mikveh and their children will be as handsome as I am and they will learn Torah like I do." He then said a special verse so no jealousy or haughtiness would result from this.

Death
On his death-bed he ordered that he should be dressed neither in white nor in black, but in scarlet, so that on awaking after death he would not feel out of place in the company either of the pious or of the wicked.

Eleazar ben Pedat succeeded Yohanan as head of the Tiberias school.

Teaching
He thoroughly analyzed the Mishnah, discovering many contradictory decisions in it. These he sought to reconcile; but as that could not always be done, he perforce rejected many laws adopted in the Mishnah, preferring the authority of baraitas taught by his former masters Hiyya and Hoshaiah.

He established broad rules that apply in many cases; for example, he held that the halakha always follows a s'tam mishnah (an undisputed anonymous mishnah), and he had rules for which tanna ("Mishnah teacher") to follow in cases of dispute. Some such rules had been formulated by others, but had proved insufficient. Johanan therefore elaborated and supplemented them, and most of his rules are to this day considered authoritative. All of them were collected in the geonic period in the "Order of the Tannaim and Amoraim" (סדר תנאים ואמוראים; abridged, סתו"א), which is ascribed to Naashon b. Zadok of the ninth century.

Later Talmudists, seeing that Johanan's name appears more frequently in the Gemara than anyone else's, ascribed to him the compilation of the Jerusalem Talmud. Modern scholars believe that he began the compilation, which, however, was not completed until over a century after him.

In his religious decisions Johanan was comparatively liberal. He blamed the destruction of the Temple by the Romans to the strictness of rabbis when applying religious verdicts. He sided with Judah II in the repeal of the prohibition against using oil made by pagans. He permitted Greek to be studied by men (because it enabled them to defend themselves against informers) and by women (because familiarity with Greek was considered attractive in women). He allowed the painting of decorative figures on the walls. Under certain circumstances he permitted emigration from Palestine: "If you are mentioned [nominated by the Romans] for office, make the Jordan your boundary friend [escape over the Jordan], even on a semiholiday".

He was one of the most prolific aggadists. Midrash Tehillim has, erroneously, been ascribed to him.

title: Johanan bar Nappaha


text:
UFJ

UFJ, which stands for the United Financial of Japan, is used in the former companies of UFJ Bank, UFJ Group, and UFJ Holdings. These related institutions disappeared after the merger of The Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi and UFJ Bank in 2005. UFJ Bank itself was established by the merger in 2002 of the Sanwa Bank, Tokai Bank, and Toyo Trust and Banking.

title: UFJ


text:
User:Gronky

You can almost never use the word "RECENT" in Wikipedia. When was it written? 2012 or 2004? When will it be read? 2012 or 2022?

Note: WP:BOTPOL (check if too-fast bots violate this, and if not, considering trying to get the policy changed)

How to help me
While barnstars and smiles are nice, the nicest thing I can see someone doing is to get stuck into WikiProject Free Software. There you will find the basic todo items and a more specific set of TODO lists. You might also find Portal:Free software to be a good starting point, and you can see my own list of needy articles lower down on this page.

GNU/Linux is a fine name
Wikipedia policy (Naming conventions (precision)) implies that the name "GNU/Linux" should be used instead of just "Linux" so as to avoid ambiguity (when refering to operating systems which are based on the combination of the GNU operating system and the Linux kernel).

In 2007, with no consensus or support, one of the most active editors on English Wikipedia, alone, replaced hundreds of links to "GNU/Linux" with "Linux". People complained, but no one had a similar amount of time to undo his flood of edits. (EDIT: I have been banned from naming the user here because of WP:UP - which I contest.)

So, I encourage others to use the term "GNU/Linux" in Wikipedia and ignore the annoying hobby of that one wikipedian (who otherwise makes many positive contributions to Wikipedia). At the same time, if you find editors abbrasive, please react calmly. Some like to steamroll over the edits of new contributors to an article (violating WP:BITE guideline), provoking a frustrated or hot-headed reaction which can be easily argued against (because it wasn't well thought out) or which allows the topic to be changed to criticism of the victim's lack of civility.

Jimbo Wales has criticised the removal of "GNU/Linux", saying: "The project to excise all references to GNU/Linux is deeply POV and wrong. It should be reverted completely and totally as quickly as possible. Virtually all references to Linux should be references to GNU/Linux."

 * Sorry, I'm totally trolling today. I saw your post on the free software article talk. It's funny how Linus Torvalds does not "react calmly" to differences of opinion (I've seen him in person, he's really calm in groups, but in emails, whoosh!) and how Linux is really just Big Software run by a corporate consortum which trolls its own trademark. Of course, if I could have everything my way I would, too. --Trakon (talk) 23:50, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

 * Yeh, he's funny. A recent GCC bug is a good example.  Slashdot splashed a big headline about Linus saying on the linux-kernel list that the GCC developers were clearly braindead, but then you see the "other" Linus appear on the gcc-bugs list to point out, calmly and politely, what needs fixing: . Gronky (talk) 12:56, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Examples of "GNU/Linux" being removed
(EDIT: Removed because an admin invoked WP:UP - which I contest)

 * Gronky, do you need help reverting these? Has Thumperward been warned?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:26, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Gronky, can you clean this list up? In not all of the above links is GNU/Linux being removed (though it is in most of them), and people might get the idea that you are  (over)complaining about nothing.  One problem is that any of the individual edits, taken alone, might be plausible as "clean up" but taken as a whole, it's pretty obvious - and dramatic - action to push a particular POV.  An extremely accurate report is better than one with errors.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:33, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi Jimbo (4 years later), there was only one erroneous link in that list. I've removed it now.  All the other links show the user in question removing GNU/. Gronky (talk) 04:18, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

"Licence" is correct, for the noun
"Licence" is the noun, "license" is the verb. This is true for UK, Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, and India. The only exception is the USA, and possibly the Philippines, where they use "license" for both the noun and the verb.

Interesting article: American and British English differences

Wikipedia policy: WP:ENGVAR

Love "citation needed" tags!
tags are very useful. If you want to help an article, please add these tags to any statements which need a verifiable source. If these tags are added to an article that you contribute to, remember that they are not a criticism. And if you replace these tags with citations, the article will be stronger for it.

Further improve these articles:

 * History of free software. - needs references (and tags)
 * Software patents and free software.
 * Free Java implementations - needs depth of detail
 * Free software licences.
 * Free software community.
 * Free software movement. ("Free software philosophy" currently redirects here)
 * Free software
 * Alternative terms for free software.
 * Copyleft
 * Permissive free software licences.
 * Portal:Free software.
 * GNU
 * GNU project
 * GNU General Public License
 * Richard Stallman
 * The Free Software Definition.
 * Proprietary software.

Also, see:
 * Portal:Free_software/Contribute
 * WikiProject_Free_Software

About me
Note: I only rarely put effort into my user page, so the content of this page has probably not be reviewed or checked or updated recently.

Wikipedia contributor since February 1st, 2004.

If you see a typo or glitch here, please feel free to fix it, and thanks to those who already have. I like this guy's articles: Ultan Quigley.

Why is my name "Gronky"?
Before being "Gronky", I had other usernames, but none lasted all that long. I wish my username was not "Gronky", but I picked that one night when I couldn't find a good username that wasn't already taken, and now I don't want to lose my edit history. So I'm Gronky.

Posting other wikipedian's personal information on Wikipedia as revenge
If someone went looking for my identity and the address of where I sleep at night, and posted them on Wikipedia, I would hope that the wikipedia admins would consider banning that user. If that user admitted what they did, and said that it was not acceptable and that it should not happen again, maybe a fixed-term ban would be suitable instead.

No one has posted my home address, but another wikipedian (EDIT:Name not mentioned because an admin invoked WP:UP - which I contest), during a heated argument, has posted the "personal information" of User:Skyring.

The details are incomplete because the information has been deleted from the Wikipedia database, but there are still edit summaries that confirm that the user did post Skyring's personal information. At one point in my research on this case, I read that this information included the address of where Skyring lives - but I can't find that anymore.

Wikipedia admins are clearly aware of what the user in question has done, but they have done nothing. That user continues to edit Wikipedia even though there has been no acknowledgement by him of his actions, or whether or not he thinks they should be acceptable, or whether or not he has resolved not to do the same again.

That user contributes a lot to Wikipedia, and many people value his contributions. But should Wikipedia have a class that are above common standards of decency? User:Skyring is trying to raise this issue, but his posts are repeatedly reverted and blocked by other Wikipedians (including admins)

I've had disagreements with that user before. Next time I disagree with him, will he try to find of where I live, and post my address on Wikipedia? Should I fear my anonymity being taken away by another wikipedian - and by this fear should I pander to and agree with that user from now on?

Gronky 19:05, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

I've just noticed that when another other admin told that user that he's abusing his admin power, he reverts the admins! (and then he locked his own talk page - making it impossible for that admin, or anyone else, to re-raise the deleted issue.) (EDIT: I have links, but an admin has banned me from posting them due to WP:UP - which I contest.)

And he seems to be doing a "rollback" on new accounts which he suspects are created by Skyring. A rollback is where all contributions by a user during a certain period are reverted by a click of an admins-only button.

All very disappointing that this is being not only tolerated, but the cover-up is being assisted. Gronky 23:47, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Giz a hand
Please comment here if you know anything of the following:
 * 1) Why a toilet is called "The jacks" in Ireland (It may also be called that in the UK, the only reference I can turn up is "harington the jacks", but it could be false or unrelated)
 * Old enough, and not necessarily Irish: as "jakes", the word occurs in Shakespeare. Palmiro 14:39, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Interesting to compare it with john for toilet, insofar as "Jack" is a common nickname for those named "John." --70.57.138.153 03:07, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) Any info about Herminie Templeton Kavanagh, the author of "Darby O'Gill and the Good People", and "Ashes of Old Wishes"
 * See much information that I have added to your article. — Walloon 06:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) more questions to come...
 * If you want your numbered list items to number correctly after people insert colon-indented response paragraphs between list items, you will need to use an HTML  list; the simple  -prefixed list style only tolerates nested items beginning with   or , I think. As to your questions, the Reference desk seems to be a good place to track down the arcane and obscure. --Teratornis 23:59, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Not quite true; other editors just need to remember to indent to the same level as the parent comment before switching to a colon, as demonstrated :) Chris Cunningham (talk) 13:21, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

My older Contributions
I don't keep track anymore of which articles I've contributed a lot to. The best way to see that is to look at my 500 most recent edits. Years ago, when I made this list, I was proud to have created the following pages of decent size:
 * Pat Ingoldsby
 * Herminie Templeton Kavanagh
 * Grace Murray Hopper Award
 * Yuri Rubinsky Memorial Award
 * GNU Robots
 * Eric Moussambani

...and to have done the majority of the work, at the time, on:
 * Free Software Foundation
 * Eben Moglen
 * Software Freedom Law Center
 * and to have contributed about half the information on Richard Stallman

Discussion at Talk:Comparison_of_free_and_open_source_software_licenses#Merge_June_2012
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Comparison_of_free_and_open_source_software_licenses. KarlB (talk) 19:21, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

title: User:Gronky


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Talk:CHSH inequality/Archive 1

Whether of not CHSH actually backed the "CHSH" test
(Caroline Thompson 23:28, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)) See also a comparison of CHSH and CH74 inequalities Note that CHSH did not in fact endorse use of the inequality in real optical experiments in the manner that has become customary. The page as it stands does not cover the important matter of how the test statistic is to be calculated from the data. The formula in general use involves normalisation by division by the sum of the coincidences. Clauser et al recognised that this was not a safe practice -- it is liable to bias the test -- and would have divided instead by the total number of pairs emitted. This, however is impractical on two counts: (a) the number emitted is not known, and (b) to use even a crude estimate of this number would mean all the terms in the test being so small that there would be no chance of violation, since with the known low detection efficiencies it is clear that the number emitted is much larger than the total number of observed coincidences.

They therefore recommended a different test, explained more fully in Clauser and Horne's 1974 paper, Clauser, J F and Horne, M A, “Experimental consequences of objective local theories”, Physical Review D, 10, 526-35 (1974). The test assumes a slightly different experimental procedure. Alain Aspect considered this test inferior, but he did not use the most elegant derivation. His derivation (see quant-ph/0402001) relied heavily on the "fair sampling" assumption, so he assumed the test itself did. Using Clauser and Horne's own derivation it is clear that it does not, and is generally superior.

 * On second thoughts, readers would be better off consulting the original paper than this page -- I find it both confusing and misleading! They would be even better off reading the Clauser and Horne 1974 paper, which makes it clear that in real experiments the hidden variables that are of logical importance control only the probability of detection.  They talk of an "Objective Local Theory" rather than a local hidden variable one.  Their approach is, it seems to me, exactly what is needed in optical experiments.  Rather than thinking in terms of photons, we need to think in terms of short light pulses.  They are emitted with a certain polarisation direction and pass through polarisers to emerge with intensity reduced according to Malus' Law.  The intensity at this stage determines the probability of detection. (Caroline Thompson 19:57, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC))

(Caroline Thompson 21:40, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)) again. Is nobody else interested?

This whole subject of Bell inequalities is a mess that could have been avoided had people (including Alain Aspect) taken more notice of Clauser and Horne's 1974 ideas. The notation there is what is needed. Earlier work is just confusing, with P sometimes standing for a probability, sometimes for a quantum correlation estimate.

I've just been re-reading the CHSH 1969 paper, CH 74 and Bell's original papers. The key thing is that Clauser and Horne did not endorse the use of the "CHSH" inequality in the form in which it is now used. They said emphatically that it could only be used if N, the number of pairs emitted, was known. The derivation they give in 1974 of what I call the CH74 test shows that it does not demand knowledge of N. Incidentally, I now realise why Aspect used a clumsy derivation of the CH74 test in his 2002 talk and thought it required the fair sampling assumption (the standard manoeuvre to bypass the problem over N). He was following the 1969 derivation.

Where the current wiki article goes wrong is in blandly assuming the correspondence:

ρ( j ) = 1 / ∫Γ dλ → 1/({ j = first of J Σ last of J} 1).

I don't see how one can proceed logically working this way around. You have to work, as Bell and CHSH did, just with the hidden variable approach. You then see (and in fact this is clear in Bell's papers) that you are dealing with probability estimates. You must use N as denominator, not this sum over j. This is because you must, in real optical experiments, allow for non-detections and you cannot assume that these will not depend on the detector setting. (See the Bell test loopholes page and my Chaotic Ball paper. The latter, incidentally, includes the diagram that shows that the "Bell inequality" introduced in the Bell's Theorem page is simply not valid if there are non-detections, even if you do use N.)

Returning to the wiki article, it does seem very professional, even if I do grumble! I found it copied in a couple of other free encyclopaedias. Does anyone know who wrote it? I'd better not simply scrap it and start again!

(Frank W ~@) R 05:32, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)): Hallo Caroline Thompson,

I just noticed your comments, and I'd like to give at least a rapid "heads-up".

Where the current wiki article goes wrong is in blandly assuming the correspondence:[ ρ( j ) = 1 / ∫Γ dλ → 1/({{sub|{ j = first of J}} Σ last of J} 1) ]

 * Rather than being wrong, that's where the present article avoids the discussion of possible additional assumptions and considerations, which might broaden the applicability of the derived CHSH inequality.
 * E.g. the consideration: "what if we didn't merely try to express and summarize the actual counts Σ nj themselves, but instead some generally unknowable numbers N >= Σ nj, of which the counts Σ nj are merely a more or less representative sample ?" ...

you must, in real optical experiments, allow for non-detections
 * No, not unconditionally: it depends on the quantity which is to be measured. One might for instance be strictly and only concerned with (the counts of) actual "detections". As the simplest and experimentally immediate case, that's the approach taken in the article. Considerations of whether and how to count possible "non-detections", and their implications for the inequality and/or its applicability, are necessarily in addition to dealing with "detections".
 * However, the present article would surely benefit from outlining, or linking to, such additional implications.

you cannot assume that these will not depend on the detector setting.
 * At least: all assumptions must be made explicit. Which assumptions one or the other can or cannot follow may depend on purpose and rigour.
 * Myself, I'd try to avoid any assumptions concerning "non-detections"; as (incidentally? &) does the present article.

I'd better not simply scrap it and start again!
 * I appreciate your being patient and communicative. Of course I'd rather see the article contents enhanced, than diminished;
 * most of all the continued accounting of the assumption (made in order to derive this and related inequalities) of a constant total domain Γ in all sets of trials, independent and in spite of different "detector settings" in various subsets of trials. Frank W ~@) R 05:32, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the feedback. You are right in a way -- the article makes this assumption about the equivalence of the sum over j and the integral that CHSH really requires.  It may not be a reasonable assumption but they've stated it and develop the consequences.

 * Do they do this logically, though?

 * The inequality they land up with is true, so long as you remember that the terms represent integrals over the whole of the hidden variable space. What is not true is the next sentence:

 * "For certain settings, the corresponding experimentally determined correlation numbers which are necessarily obtained from counts in four disjoint sets of trials, can be found to fail the CHSH inequality with considerable significance; as demonstrated for instance by Alain Aspect et al.."

 * The estimated correlation numbers used in the tests are the ones using the sum over j as denominator, but the inequality does not apply to these -- unless, of course, the infamous "fair sampling" assumption is correct, and the samples in each set are between them scattered evenly over the whole of the space Γ. (We then still don't have unbiased estimates of the terms as originally defined but this does not matter so long as all points in Γ have the same chance of being detected.  We could have derived the same inequality taking this constant chance (the detector efficiency) into account.  (I think.  Haven't quite checked this.  I find the notation of the article very off-putting compared to Clauser and Horne's 1974 derivation.)

 * Whether or not the next sentence is true is debatable. The article says:

 * "Therefore the assumptions based on which the CHSH inequality is derived are collectively unsuitable to represent all experimental results; namely the assumption of local hidden variables from one and the same constant total domain Γ in all sets of trials."

 * What are they implying? That the inequality as applied in practice is not valid (with which I agree) or that local hidden variable theories are incompatible with the observations?  Are they saying that it is a necessary requirement of local HV theories that the detections should come evenly from all points in the domain Γ?  If so they are wrong.  Hidden variable theories are, as the Clauser and Horne 1974 paper clearly expresses, more general than this, and can perfectly well result in "variable detection probabilities" -- as has been known since Pearle, 1970.

 * So I'm still in a quandary as to how to improve the page. I'll have a try some day.

 * Caroline Thompson 21:33, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

What the present edition of the article says/means
(Frank W ~@) R 04:10, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)) Hallo Caroline Thompson,

the article makes this assumption about the equivalence of the sum over j and the integral that CHSH really requires
 * Rather than summing or integrating counts of "detections", some seem to entertain assumptions such as the infamous "fair sampling" in order to sum or integrate numbers of "non-detections" as well (or instead). Such assumptions are those to which I objected above; not least because the CHSH inequality can be derived and related experiments be discussed in terms of "detections" alone.

The estimated correlation numbers used in the tests are the ones using the sum over j as denominator
 * Yes -- however: not estimated, but plainly observationally counted (at least in the simplest case, without contamination by any more or less objectionable assumptions about "sampling of nondetections").

but the inequality does not apply to these -- unless, of course, the infamous "fair sampling" assumption is [invoked]
 * On the contrary: If the inequality is strictly expressed in terms of counts of "detections", then "sampling" is trivial: we count and consider "detections", all "detections" and nothing but the "detections".
 * Only by making additional assumptions about numbers of "non-detections" the inequality can be expressed in terms of such numbers as well.

[... the assumption of local hidden variables from one and the same constant total domain ...] What are they implying?
 * Your above reference, PRD10, 526 (1974), spells out the crucial additional assumption most directly in note (13):
 * "We should emphasize that an assumption is made here. By writing the density as ρ( λ ), instead of a more general conditional ρ( λ | a, b ) we deny such objective and local possibilities as ..."
 * This assumption is far stronger than the ubiquitous
 * "p12( λ, a, b ) = p1( λ, a ) p2( λ, b )  (2')"
 * which (per definition of "objective and local possibility") must hold (merely) and separately for any one particular value λ, with a corresponding one particular pair (a, b).
 * A particularly plain "objective and local possibility" which is being denied through this additional assumption (or rather: requirement) would be:
 * to identify Γ with the entire set of trials in which the "detections" were made, and (thereby) to identify any one value of the variable λ as one particular trial (index) in which one particlar pair of "detections" were made (one by A, and one by B); i. e. generally for one particular pair (a, b), but not for any other, distinct pairs such as (a, b') or (a', b) or (a', b').
 * For this "possibility", for instance, the inequality cannot be derived. Therefore this "possibility" remains consistent even with experimental results which are not summarized by the inequality.
 * Perhaps the article should give this point more emphasis ...

 * Regards, Frank W ~@) R 04:10, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I just prepared a careful response and accidentally lost it! The main point I want to make is that, as far as I know, a derivation of the CHSH inequality using only the observed detections that is valid for cases in which there are in fact some non-detections does not exist.  If you think otherwise, can you tell me where to find such a derivation?

 * But in point of fact I can prove that the inequality is not true in such cases. My Chaotic Ball model is a counter-example, sufficient to refute any such inequality.

 * Clauser and Horne's note 13 concerns possibilities that are not relevant in experiments conducted in the spirit Bell intended. They are talking of effects of the detectors on the source, which, with distant detectors, can be assumed not to happen.  Your example is not relevant unless the inequality can be proved when restricted to detected events -- which my model proves it can't!

 * Incidentally, you might be interested in my new little paper, comparing the CHSH and CH74 inequalities. The CH74 inequality does not need any assumptions about fair sampling.  It is designed for use using only observed detections.  It was used for all experiments up to 1980 and was, I think, dropped in favour of the (mis-interpreted) CHSH test as a result of misunderstandings.

 * Caroline Thompson 18:18, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Clauser and Horne's note 13, PRD10, 526 (1974)
(<TT>F</TT>rank <TT>W ~@) R</TT> 04:12, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)) Hallo Caroline Thompson,

Clauser and Horne's note 13 concerns possibilities that are not relevant in experiments conducted in the spirit Bell intended.

 * The possibilities which Clauser and Horne describe in note 13 appear considerably less general and far-reaching than what is implied by the exact mathematical condition, which Clauser and Horne require in their derivation, and which they state quite unambiguously (also in note 13). They don't seem to address the (to any experimentalist presumably very plain) possibility at all, that the trial index presents the "hidden variable". Yet their mathematical condition clearly rules out this possibility, because the required four different "pairs of settings" inevitably refer to four distinct (though not necessarily disjoint) sets of trials. Consequently trials must have been considered that belong to one particlar set, described by one particular "pair of settings" but not another. For the corresponding trial indices (as values of the "hidden variable") the condition stipulated by Clauser and Horne is therefore not satisfied, and the inequality cannot be derived. Accordingly, finding the inequality experimentally violated cannot conflict with this particularly plain possibility; regardless of experimental sensitivity or theoretical intentions.
 * While this is already quite obvious in the present article, perhaps this and other suitable "possibilities" may be spelled out in more detail in Objective local theories which are not experimentally refuted.

[...] a derivation of the CHSH inequality using only the observed detections that is valid for cases in which there are in fact some non-detections does not exist

 * I don't presume to judge the validity of any statement concerning "non-detections"; except to note that it is surely one valid possibility to stricty ignore any "non-detections", in definitions and derivations as well as in corresponding experimental counts ... [Continued in Chaotic Ball section]

The Chaotic Ball model
(<TT>F</TT>rank <TT>W ~@) R</TT> 04:12, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC))  -- continued My Chaotic Ball model [...]

 * Most questionable and puzzling in this model seems to me, that you don't consider the orientation angle φ defined (according to Malus, in terms of the described counts) as
 * "ArcCos[ (NN + SS - NS - SN) / (NN + SS + NS + SN) ]",
 * but instead some apparently geometric "angle φ between directions", presumably
 * "ArcCos[ (ab^2 - 1/2 (na^2 + sa^2 + nb^2 + sb^2 - ns^2)) / Sqrt[ (na^2 + sa^2 - 1/2 ns^2) (nb^2 + sb^2 - 1/2 ns^2) ] ]"
 * where "ab" is the distance between Anne and Bob, "na" is the distance between Anne and point N on the ball, etc.
 * Those are two differently defined quantities, which must be distinguished carefully. (Usually one considers only the former, i. e. the orientation angle between detector pairs; especially in order to evaluate their respective "settings" in any set of trials in the first place.) <TT>F</TT>rank <TT>W ~@) R</TT> 04:12, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Frank, we seem to be talking entirely at cross-purposes. Before we go any further could you please tell me where you have seen a derivation of the inequality that you think is a Bell one but that is somehow derived directly from the kind of approach used on the first page of the wiki article?  As far as I know, such an inequality does not exist!  If it did I might be able to make sense of your concerns re Clauser and Horne's note 13, but as it is, the "trial index" simply is not the kind of thing that can usefully be used as a hidden variable.  It is not the kind of thing considered by Bell, Clauser, Horne, Shimony or anybody else actually concerned with Bell tests.  It contains no useful information that could contribute to the correlations.  Bell's idea is concerned with hidden variables that actually *do* something in the experiment.

 * Of course the characteristics of the source could vary with trial index, but if it did the experimenter would take measures to allow for it, such as randomising the order of the four different subexperiments and repeating them many times. In practice, they monitor carefully the rate of production of photon pairs and do a certain amount of randomisation and replication. There is no reason why the trial index per se should affect the result.  There is also no reason why the detector settings should affect the actual pairs produced.  In the version of Bell test you are considering (which is not, I think, a valid one), by restricting your attention to detected pairs only you land up with a sample that can depend on the detector settings.  But this does not give rise to a valid Bell test.  This is the reason that Clauser, Horne et al insisted that, in the estimation of terms for the CHSH inequality, the whole hidden variable space be used.

 * Re my Chaotic Ball model, I don't understand how you can fail to understand a diagram that shows precisely what &phi is: the angle between the directions in which the two observers are looking. As explained in the text, it corresponds to the difference between the two detector settings.  It has absolutely nothing to do with the algebraic expression you've invented.  And the other definition that you take as standard is also an invented one.  It is probably not invented by you but by whoever you are following.  The angle between detector settings is not something to be derived from the observed counts!  The experimenter sets the two detector orientations.  It is simply the difference between them.

 * The model shows immediately what is involved if you don't look at the whole HV space: the shaded areas on the diagram (fig. 5) don't add up to the total area.

 * Caroline Thompson 10:18, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

(<TT>F</TT>rank <TT>W ~@) R</TT> 05:47, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)) Hallo Caroline Thompson,

please tell me where you have seen a derivation of the inequality
 * In the original reference given in the article, PRL23, 880 (1969); supplemented by the definitions detailed in PRD10, 526 (1974), in particular the equations (1) and (2), p. 527. (Clauser and Horn were authors of both these references, of course ...)

the "trial index" simply is not the kind of thing that can usefully be used as a hidden variable
 * I beg to differ. According to the comprehensive definitions of PRD10, on p. 527, any one value "λ", a.k.a. the "hidden variable", is (not more and not less than) to
 * "[...] Denote [...] the state specification of the above system at a time intermediate between its emission and its impingement on either apparatus. [Where] we do not necessarily make a commitment to the completeness of this state specification [...]"
 * The index of any one trial certainly *denotes* the state of the system in this trial unambiguously; of course without much claim of completeness of state specification (but that's permitted).
 * (Indeed, "one emission and one subsequent pair of impingements on either apparatus" seems a suitable definition of what constitutes one "trial" in this context in the first place.)

Bell's idea is concerned with hidden variables that actually *do* something in the experiment.
 * No -- the various instances of "the system" actually *do* something in the various experimental trials. Variables only serve to either characterize the variations between the instances or states (quantitatively, as "exposed variables"); or else, if such characteristics remain hidden, then merely to distinctly denote the instances or states.

randomising the order of the four different subexperiments and repeating them many times
 * Does this have any bearing on the conditions (such as "13" above) under which the inequality ether can or cannot be derived ??
 * After all, distinct trials remain distinct regardless of their order, and regardless of how many more trials are being observed.

I don't understand how you can fail to understand a diagram that shows precisely what &phi is: the angle between the directions in which the two observers are looking
 * We may have different interpretations of "precsion". Precisely *towards where* did you suppose should either one of the two have directed ... their looks ?
 * I presumed (effectively): each "towards the center C of the ball"
 * (whereby
 * "nc = sc = 1/2 ns", i. e.
 * "the distance between point N on the ball and the center of the ball equals the distance between point S on the ball and the center of the ball, which in turn equals half the the distance between point N on the ball and point S on the ball").
 * Aren't these the (geometric) "directions" you're considering ?

It has absolutely nothing to do with the algebraic expression you've invented.
 * Rather than invent I merely applied -- the "Law of cosines":
 * "(ca^2 + ns^2/4 - na^2) / (ca ns) = (sa^2 - ca^2 - ns^2/4) / (ca ns)", and
 * (to eliminate any reference to the presumed "C", because this doesn't even appear in your diagram)
 * "φ =?= ArcCos[ (ab^2 - 1/2 (na^2 + sa^2 + nb^2 + sb^2 - ns^2)) / Sqrt[ (na^2 + sa^2 - 1/2 ns^2) (nb^2 + sb^2 - 1/2 ns^2) ] ]"
 * How precisely do you suppose to define φ, the "angle between the directions" (discussed above) instead ?

The angle between detector settings is not something to be derived from the observed counts!
 * How do you suppose to measure values of such angles instead ?!
 * (if not in application of Malus' definition, as I use to do, i. e. in this context as
 * "ArcCos[ (NN + SS - NS - SN) / (NN + SS + NS + SN) ]").

The experimenter sets the two detector orientations.
 * Yes, the experimenter(s) may leave or shake up (and most especially: denote) the apparatus parts as they may.
 * But how else would the/any experimenter(s) *measure* a numerical value of the corresponding orientation angle ?

It is simply the difference between them.
 * "Difference" (as result of Subtraction) requires *numbers* ("minuend" and "subtrahend") as arguments.
 * How do you suppose that any particular suitable numerical values could be assigned to the "detector orientations" under consideration ? Geometrically ??
 * Regards, <TT>F</TT>rank <TT>W ~@) R</TT> 05:47, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Caroline Thompson 08:40, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC) Hello Frank W

Perhaps we should continue this conversation privately?

 * (<TT>F</TT>rank <TT>W ~@) R</TT> 03:35, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)) Perhaps our exchange may be of interest to future editors of this article ?

I think you are gravely misinterpreting Clauser and Horne. They (in PRD10, 526 (1974)) are talking about the physical state of the system.

 * Yes; to be denoted by "λ".

Unless "the system" is assumed to be something that remains essentially unchanged from trial to trial we can't usefully conduct Bell test experiments.

 * Unless you deny outright that, over the course of a sequence of experimental trials, "the system state" could change at all, to be appropriately denoted by distinct values of the "hidden variable" (from the set Γ) --
 * under which circumstances do you suppose "the system state" could undergo change, if not in general from one trial of the sequence to the next trial ?

But what is it we are really trying to reach agreement on? The major issue, I thought, was whether or not the CHSH test as currently applied, using the sum of coincidence rates as denominator, is valid?

 * I tried to address this already above: that's certainly valid, especially as being free of any particular assumptions which would have to be made in order to consider "non-detections".

I maintain that nowhere in Clauser and Horne's paper, or the CHSH 1969 one, will you find them saying anything other than that the test should be used with N as denominator, where N is the number of emitted pairs. OK, so they don't say that explicitly but they do say the test must not be used unless N is known. Their equation (1) (p 527 of the CH74 paper) is in terms of ratios with N as denominator. Their derivation would not make sense if anything else was used.

 * Allright, agreed. But neither do they appear decisive about how to obtain the number "N", the "number of emissions" itself.
 * Is "N" meant to be defined as "{{sub|{ j = first of J}} Σ last of J}( nj(A↑) + nj(A↓) )" =(per definition)= "{{sub|{ j = first of J}} Σ last of J}( nj(B «) - nj(B ») )",
 * or is consideration of "third options" permitted, e. g. "A_no_detection" and "B_no_detection", with the additional corresponding numbers "nj( A_no_detection )" and "nj( B_no_detection )" ?
 * (The present article uses such elaborate notation to allow these cases to be distinguished and intelligently compared in the first place.)
 * The former case is based on experimental observations and the corresponding counts alone, and is thereby self-evidently valid. The latter requires additional assumptions to evaluate "nj( A_no_detection )" and "nj( B_no_detection )"; assumptions which may be considered objectionable.

It does not make sense if we try and restrict out ensemble to the set of detected pairs.
 * Your claim and my rejoinder obviously depend on what's considered "making sense". In experimental physics especially, sense is being made from counts (of what has been directly observed/sensed). Accordingly it is at least one sensible approach, as well as the simplest, to define and count the "number of emissions", "N" as "number of detections" which is directly available.

At this stage perhaps we should consider some particular application of their test? If you do so, I think your whole problem with the angles of the detectors will be cleared up automatically. Yes, they are real geometrical angles.

 * I very much doubt that; after all, in comparisons to the so-called "predictions of QM" in the various references the numbers "a - b", "a' - b" etc. are employed as if they were orientation angles (in the sense of Malus). Of course my doubts could be alleviated if we'd consider some particular application:

We can measure them with a protractor!

 * Well, at least a protractor is supposed to show marks labelled with numbers corresponding values of geometrical angles. These would have had to be measured beforehand, in order to put the *appropriate* number to any particular mark on any particular protractor in the first place; and quite equally so on all "good" protractors.

 * I've found a web-page that pictures a protractor and (how friendly! :) points out one of its conspicuous parts by name: as the "index" (a.k.a. "origin" or "apex"). A procedure is provided as well: first one is supposed to "place the index" ... where ??, or on what ?? ...
 * (Also, the actual initial measurement of geometrical angles is of course based on the Law of cosines, which in turn requires measured values of distance ratios. Merely painting the integers "0" through "180" somewhere and anywhere "around the index" perhaps doesn't necessarily make a meaningful protractor.)

There is no need for any of your geometry in relation to my Chaotic Ball model (http://arXiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9611037), which you seem determined to misunderstand.

 * Could you for starters please point out just where the "index" of a protractor would have to be placed, in the presumably "precise diagram" (fig. 2)? My above guess, "(on) the center C of the ball" may have been a misunderstanding, of course. (I also note that the "Vectors a and b" of fig. 2 have no intersection drawn at all ...)

But perhaps more importantly, if you think you can estimate the angle from the observed counts (assuming Malus' Law) this is entirely begging the issue!

 * Well, it certainly underscores the importance of CHSH's suggestions as thought experiments; on par with considerations by EPR, Bohm, Bell, Wigner and d'Espagnat, Tsirelson, as well as GHZ. Preparing corresponding actual set-ups, actually recording "detections" and analyzing these data as described has largely pedagogical value.

You will have assumed everything the tests are intended to prove.
 * The proof that the CHSH inequality can be experimentally found violated has indeed been stated a priori: per eq. (4) of PRL23, 880 (1969).
 * The only remaining experimental tests are to test whether or not suitably decisive values of the orientation angles, e. g.

b - a = a - b' = a' - b = π/8,
 * were actually attained in particular sets of trials.

I have seen the formula you use ("ArcCos[ (NN + SS - NS - SN) / (NN + SS + NS + SN) ]") elsewhere, but that does not make it meaningful.
 * The fact that this formula represents a mathematically unambiguous expression in terms of actual experimental counts (based on your own definition) does make it meaningful; a physical quantity to be measured. Since the days of Malus, this quantity even has a name: the "orientation angle", e. g. between a pair of "polarizer axes" (or in the later version: between a pair of "analyzer axes").

Caroline Thompson 08:40, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Regards, <TT>F</TT>rank <TT>W ~@) R</TT> 03:35, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

title: Talk:CHSH inequality/Archive 1


text:
User:Cdheald

Hello, my name is Chris Heald. I am from Cedar Rapids, IA. There may be more info here soon.

My websites:
 * My PhotoPage
 * My Motorcycle Club Page

title: User:Cdheald


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nick Tahou Hots

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cryptic (talk • contribs) 14:06, 13 October 2007

Pure advertising for a restaurant. Signed, --1pezguy 02:58, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)

I am afraid I must disagree.

This restaurant is a cultural Icon for the region that has been around for decades. Search Google for Nick Tahou and you will see many more entries for it than for your average hometown restaurant. This is attributable to the large student population from the city's half dozen 4-year schools including the university of Rochester and Rochester Institute of Technology.

Signed - Elton Ray
 * But is it notable outside of Rochester? If not, delete.  [[User:Poccil|Peter O. (Talk)]] 06:10, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)
 * I note that "Elton Ray" (anon user 24.169.106.153, and I highly suggest he get himself an ID here, instead of editing anonymously) removed the VFD header just after he posted here. (I've taken the liberty of restoring it.) I think the article needs a POV-ectomy first, then we can see if what's left is encyclopedic. I would take a swing at it, but it's getting late and that actually needs to be done by someone familiar with the restaurant. Or I could always wax poetic about the Deer Park Tavern in Newark, Delaware, where many a University of Delaware student spent many a night... My vote is keep, cleanup, and reevaluate. - Kenwarren 04:15, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)
 * It does get a fair number of hits. Unfortunately I'm not familiar with the region (and the description of its most notable menu item has put me off visiting) - if notable, keep and NPOV. I would be particularly interested in a correlation with medical statistics (coronary disease, stomach complaints) in the area. If kept, merge info on Garbage Plate (do not read while eating breakfast) here. Ianb 05:46, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * It doesn't seem to be much worse than that Bun Boy article I fixed up a while back. Needs the aforementioned POV-ectomy something fierce.  Merge the "garbage plate" article while we're at it.  Order up! - Lucky 6.9 06:19, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

One final word on the restaurant's notability outside of Rochester and I am done proselytizing. The restaurant was featured in a Georgetown university newspaper in Washington DC, a blogger in Ontario Canada mentions his visit, Non-Rochester, New york web sites: roadfood.com, wanderlist.com, aaroadtrips.com, topazguide.com, www.travelconsumer.com. It is a bizarre regional phenomenon. if you browse: http://www.geocities.com/garbageplates, you will see around 80 area establishments that serve the dish. The food is quite unheathy. I believe one of these dishes includes over 100 grams of fat. Thanks, you folks are doing an excellent job. - Elton Ray

 * Keep. It is notable. I used to live in Rochester, and when I'd travel, folks would ask me how often I ate there. I've seen Tahou's soda mugs all over. It's one of those things that you notice when you know it, but don't when you don't. - UtherSRG 14:53, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. POV cleanup needed. Arevich 17:28, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. I'd never heard of a "garbage plate" before and it seems to me that it's worth knowing about. Article in present form does not seem unreasonably promotional. However, I would caution User:24.169.106.153 that deleting VfD notices is very, very bad form and is not calculated to win Wikipedians over to your cause. Dpbsmith 17:37, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * P. S. Google search on "Nick Tahou Hots" in quotations and this comes up as the first link! Take a look. (Not quite safe for work). Appetite appeal! Dpbsmith 17:46, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Keep. Kenwarren probably has it right: it needs a clean-up and reevaluation.  I've eaten there a few times, and it's an experience.  Finding someone who's been there and can still write with NPOV will be difficult, though. Ventura 17:50, 2004 Jul 27 (UTC)
 * Keep 'n clean. I think that if it's notable in Rochester then it qualifies. Afterall, I think it would be great if people traveling to a new city could use the Wikipedia to learn about that city's notable features. - Eisnel 17:51, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Comment re notability. this site says:
 * Another somewhat unique dish that has received undeserved national acclaim, through the writings of Jan & Michael Stern, is the Nick Tahou "Garbage Plate." What you will find on the garbage plate is a little of everything: hot dog, cheese burger, home fries, macaroni salad, and baked beans, in various combinations if you wish. The problem is that none of the parts of the garbage plate are very good. However, that's not the point. Young men who like to have contests to see how much beer or food they can consume love the "Garbage Plate" as more of a ritual of rite of passage from boyhood to manhood. Others enjoy it simply as a form of culinary masochism or as a means of molesting culinary snobs. If you move to Rochester, go Nick Tahou's and order up a "Garbage Plate." This will help you assimilate and prepare you to answer questions about it from out-of-towners.
 * The reference is presumable to Jane and Michael Stern's book, "Roadfood: The Coast-to-Coast Guide to 500 of the Best Barbeque Joints, Lobster Shacks, Ice Cream Parlors, Highway Diners, and Much More." If, in fact, it is mentioned in this book, which I do not have at hand, then I would say that it has more than local notability. As well as intrinsic interest. Dpbsmith 18:43, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Another comment re notability. Searching on Google Groups for "garbage plate" in quotes yield 484 hits. almost all of them relevant, and most of them mentioning Nick Tahou Hots by name. In other words, the dish, while available elsewhere, is so closely associated with Nick Tahou that it is reasonable to have Garbage plate redirect to Nick Tahou Hots. 484 hits isn't too bad, although a fair proportion are in alt.culture.ny-upstate, some wny.rochester.freenet, and (for some reason I haven't yet determined) quite a few in rec.music.phish (and some other music groups). BTW I'm not shilling for the place, I don't believe I've ever been in Rochester, I hadn't heard of a "garbage plate" until yesterday, just trying to assess notability. Dpbsmith 22:27, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Delete. Elf-friend 19:31, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * KEEP definately a regional icon. as much as the Anchor Bar is for its invention of "buffalo wings". Currently I live in Maine... people up here have even heard of it. Alkivar
 * Keep. Definitely regionally notable in the Rochester Metro Area. Knowledge of it spread throughout the country via the many universities and colleges in Rochester.--Samuel J. Howard 17:03, Jul 31, 2004 (UTC)
 * If this is the birthplace of the Garbage Plate, keep. I've heard it discussed far outside the region. -- WOT 20:42, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * KEEP - First, this is not advertising for the restaurant. I started the Garbage Plate article because someone asked me what it was when I told them about it.  I took a picture of it as well.  I am from the Rochester area, so I don't know how well known Nick Tahous is anywhere else.  It is probably one of the most known places around here though, you could probably mention it to 10 people and at least 9 would have heard of it although very few probably eat there.  - martianpenguin
 * some of us eat there :) i made a 22hr road trip to get my tahou's fix one weekend out of boredom. - Alkivar

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.


text: User:Ieshan~enwiki/sample.php

title: User:Ieshan~enwiki/sample.php


text:
English Madrigal School

The English Madrigal School was the intense flowering of the musical madrigal in England, mostly from 1588 to 1627, along with the composers who produced them. The English madrigals were a cappella, predominantly light in style, and generally began as either copies or direct translations of Italian models. Most were for three to six voices.

Style and characteristics
Most likely the impetus for writing madrigals came through the influence of Alfonso Ferrabosco, who worked in England in the 1560s and 1570s in Queen Elizabeth's court; he wrote many works in the form, and not only did they prove popular but they inspired some imitation by local composers. The development that caused the explosion of madrigal composition in England, however, was the development of native poetry—especially the sonnet—which was conducive to setting to music in the Italian style. When Nicholas Yonge published Musica transalpina in 1588, it proved to be immensely popular, and the vogue for madrigal composition in England can be said to truly have started then.

Musica transalpina was a collection of Italian madrigals, mostly by Ferrabosco and Marenzio, fitted with English words. They were well-loved, and several similar anthologies followed immediately after the success of the first. Yonge himself published a second Musica transalpina in 1597, hoping to duplicate the success of the first collection.

While William Byrd, probably the most famous English composer of the time, experimented with the madrigal form, he never actually called his works madrigals, and shortly after writing some secular songs in madrigalian style returned to writing mostly sacred music.

The most influential composers of madrigals in England, and the ones whose works have survived best to the present day, were Thomas Morley, Thomas Weelkes and John Wilbye. Morley is the only composer of the time who set verse by Shakespeare for which the music has survived. His style is melodic, easily singable, and remains popular with a cappella singing groups. Wilbye had a very small compositional output, but his madrigals are distinctive with their expressiveness and chromaticism; they would never be confused with their Italian predecessors.

The last line of Gibbons' "The Silver Swan" of 1612,
 * "More Geese than Swans now live, more Fools than Wise."

is often considered to be a lament for the death of the English tradition.

One of the more notable compilations of English madrigals was The Triumphs of Oriana, a collection of madrigals compiled by Thomas Morley, which contained 25 different madrigals by 23 different composers. Published in 1601 as a tribute to Elizabeth I of England, each madrigal contains a reference to Oriana, a name used to reference the Queen.

Madrigals continued to be composed in England through the 1620s, but the air and "recitative music" rendered the style obsolete; somewhat belatedly, characteristics of the Baroque style finally appeared in England. While the music of the English Madrigal School is of generally high quality and has endured in popularity, it is useful to remember that the total output of the composers was relatively small: Luca Marenzio in Italy alone published more books of madrigals than the entire sum of madrigal publications in England, and Philippe de Monte wrote more madrigals (over 1100) than were written in England during the entire period.

Composers
The following list includes almost all of the composers of the English Madrigal School who published works. Many of these were amateur composers, some known only for a single book of madrigals, and some for an even smaller contribution.
 * Thomas Bateson (c 1570–1630)
 * John Bennet (c 1575–after 1614)
 * John Bull (1562–1628)
 * William Byrd (1543–1623)
 * Thomas Campion (1567–1620)
 * Richard Carlton (c 1558–?1638)
 * Michael Cavendish (c 1565–1628)
 * John Dowland (1563–1626)
 * Michael East (c 1580–c 1648)
 * John Farmer (c 1565–1605)
 * Giles Farnaby (c 1560–c 1620)
 * Alfonso Ferrabosco (1543–1588) (Italian, but worked in England for two decades)
 * Ellis Gibbons (1573–1603)
 * Orlando Gibbons (1583–1625)
 * Thomas Greaves (fl. c 1600)
 * William Holborne (fl. 1597)
 * John Holmes (d. 1629)
 * Edmund Hooper (1553–1621)
 * John Jenkins (1592–1678)
 * Robert Jones (fl. 1597–1615)
 * George Kirbye (c 1565–1634)
 * Henry Lichfild (fl. 1613, d. after 1620)
 * John Milton (1562–1647)
 * Thomas Morley (1557–1603)
 * John Mundy (c 1555–1630)
 * Peter Philips (c 1560–1628) (lived and published in the Netherlands, but wrote in an English style)
 * Francis Pilkington (c 1570–1638)
 * Walter Porter (c 1587–1659)
 * Thomas Tomkins (1572–1656)
 * Thomas Vautor (c 1580-?)
 * John Ward (1571–1638)
 * Thomas Weelkes (1576–1623)
 * John Wilbye (1574–1638)

title: English Madrigal School


text:
Xerces Society

The Xerces Society for Invertebrate Conservation (Xerces Society) is a non-profit environmental organization that focuses on the conservation of invertebrates considered to be essential to biological diversity and ecosystem health. It is named in honor of an extinct California butterfly, the Xerces blue (Glaucopsyche xerces).

The Society collaborates with federal and state agencies including the US Department of Agriculture, as well as scientists, land managers, educators, and citizens to promote invertebrate conservation, applied research, advocacy, public outreach and education. Examples of Xerces Society activities include advocating for invertebrates and their habitats, petitioning for the designation of endangered status for applicable species such as the monarch butterfly, and public education projects. Ongoing projects include the rehabilitation of habitat for endangered species, public education about the importance of native pollinators, and the restoration and protection of watersheds.

The organization was founded by butterfly scientist Robert Michael Pyle from Yale School of Forestry & Environmental Studies, and was reincorporated with the Oregon Secretary of State on April 14, 1988.

Publications

 * Publications Library

title: Xerces Society


text:
Complete group

In mathematics, a group $G$ is said to be complete if every automorphism of $G$ is inner, and it is centerless; that is, it has a trivial outer automorphism group and trivial center.

Equivalently, a group is complete if the conjugation map, $G → Aut(G)$ (sending an element $g$ to conjugation by $g$), is an isomorphism: injectivity implies that only conjugation by the identity element is the identity automorphism, meaning the group is centerless, while surjectivity implies it has no outer automorphisms.

Examples
As an example, all the symmetric groups, $Sn$, are complete except when $n ∈ {2, 6}$. For the case $n = 2$, the group has a non-trivial center, while for the case $n = 6$, there is an outer automorphism.

The automorphism group of a simple group is an almost simple group; for a non-abelian simple group $G$, the automorphism group of $G$ is complete.

Properties
A complete group is always isomorphic to its automorphism group (via sending an element to conjugation by that element), although the converse need not hold: for example, the dihedral group of 8 elements is isomorphic to its automorphism group, but it is not complete. For a discussion, see.

Extensions of complete groups
Assume that a group $G$ is a group extension given as a short exact sequence of groups

with kernel, $1 ⟶ N ⟶ G ⟶ G′ ⟶ 1$, and quotient, $N$. If the kernel, $G′$, is a complete group then the extension splits: $N$ is isomorphic to the direct product, $G$. A proof using homomorphisms and exact sequences can be given in a natural way: The action of $N × G′$ (by conjugation) on the normal subgroup, $G$, gives rise to a group homomorphism, $N$. Since $φ : G → Aut(N) ≅ N$ and $Out(N) = 1$ has trivial center the homomorphism $N$ is surjective and has an obvious section given by the inclusion of $φ$ in $N$. The kernel of $G$ is the centralizer $φ$ of $CG(N)$ in $N$, and so $G$ is at least a semidirect product, $G$, but the action of $C_{G}(N) ⋊ N$ on $N$ is trivial, and so the product is direct.

This can be restated in terms of elements and internal conditions: If $C_{G}(N)$ is a normal, complete subgroup of a group $N$, then $G$ is a direct product. The proof follows directly from the definition: $G = CG(N) × N$ is centerless giving $N$ is trivial. If $C_{G}(N) ∩ N$ is an element of $g$ then it induces an automorphism of $G$ by conjugation, but $N$ and this conjugation must be equal to conjugation by some element $N = Aut(N)$ of $n$. Then conjugation by $N$ is the identity on $gn−1$ and so $N$ is in $gn^{−1}$ and every element, $C_{G}(N)$, of $g$ is a product $G$ in $(gn^{−1})n$.

title: Complete group