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Talk:Hinayana/Archive 1

= Attempt to re-factor Hinayana = (This is an attempt to summarise the discussion somewhat, in order to shorten the page size. Apologies if I have missed or omitted crucial points. Please restore them from the history if needs be.)

What is clear is that there are differing views concerning the term 'Hinayana'. I have adopted (and in the process subsumed) Mahabala's earlier summary of today. Forgive me if it offends thee.

Editing Hinayana: A request for harmony
Can we agree not to revert the page without some discussion? we all agree that I could develop a more appropriate editorial style!

 * can you? see abovemahābāla 16:32, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

OK - could we apply it to this page as well please! mahābāla 15:44, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC) OK - But we need to trim (carefully) or summarise accordingly.

= Early Schools of Buddhism = IMHO, we need a separate article that covers the ancient schools of Buddhism. The advantages: We will have a wonderful and important resource that supplies readers with information about ancient Indian schools of Buddhism that are now mostly extinct We should also definately link to it from here for those who expect to find it here. I suggest Shramana or Early Buddhist Schools. Thoughts?
 * We can discuss them under a title which nobody finds perjorative.
 * We can deal with issues of ancient history and Hinayana separately.
 * We can also then talk at length about heritage and descendancy of modern schools such as Theravada.

 * Agreed. I like Early Buddhist Schools. Shramana has advantages (like being more accurate), but I think for the uninitiated reader it's best to avoid Sanskrit/Pali words as article titles where possible. mahābāla 15:48, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me.

The new page
When I first saw the Early Buddhist Schools page, I noticed myself beginning to object to it. But, after some thought, I can't really see a problem with it. I think all of this discussion of Buddhism is starting to make a reflexive Mahayanist out of me. Anyway, there is one thing I wanted to bring up. I think that my involvement in the discussion over "Hinayana" arose out of an attempt to describe the modern Buddhist schools on the "Buddhism" page. Now, the way this is conventionally done is to talk about Theravada/Mahayana/Vajrayana (or Theravada/Sutric Mahayana/Tantric Mahayana if you prefer). This is fine, but it's a little awkward because it's like a biologist comparing a class, an order, and a genus. Theravada is a much more specific term than Mahayana is. So, I was attempting to use "Hinayana" as a broader term to encompasses Theravada and certain other now-defunct schools (this is the traditional Western usage which both March 2 and Mahā critique for different reasons). So it turns out that the term "Hinayana" is maybe not a very good one for that purpose. Some people say "Shravakayana" instead, but this meets only Mahā's criticisms and not March 2's.

So, the question is, is it even worthwhile to have any term to use as an umbrella covering both Theravada and various historical schools that are not Mahayana? If so, what term to use? I've seen suggested Sramanera suggested, but I'm not sure if it's accurate to say that modern Theravada is more or less Sramanic than modern Mahayana. The more I think about it, the more I see the merits of the expression "Nikaya Buddhism," which was originally suggested on wikipedia by, I think, that guy a c muller. Judging by the Nikaya article (which maybe is not really a good idea, I don't know), this expression is used as a positive by both Theravadins and Mahayanics: by the former to mean a subschool or sect of orthodox buddhists, which is agreeable for our purpose, and by the latter to mean the sutras of the Pali Canon. This last is especially agreeable because it seems to me that the easiest way to distinguish a Nikaya school is that they accept the validity of the Nikayas/Agamas/Sutta Pitaka and nothing else. - Nat Krause 08:30, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * Interesting post, Nat. Your point about the value of 'umbrella-ing' Theravada with the early schools is interesting. Nikaya seems okay to me if we need that, but why not keep it English and say "Theravada and the Early Buddhist Schools" ?

(20040302 09:29, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC))

 * Well, "Theravada and the Early Schools" doesn't really sound like a category, one could just as well say "Mahayana and the Early Schools." I suppose we could think of it as "Theravada-Early" like "Indo-European".  But I don't think that Early is synonymous with "Nikaya" or what is conventionally called "Hinayana" in the west.  Even leaving aside religious claims and assuming that Western scholarship indicates that the early schools were non-Mahayana, this is an empirical fact, not a category.  It may or may not come to light in the future that some Early schools were not Hina/Shravaka/Nikaya. - Nat Krause 17:08, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * Fair enough Nat - I leave it in your capable hands! (20040302 17:15, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC))

=Hinayana=

Introduction to the term Hinayana
(Mahabala, I cannot accept an assertion of the use of Hinayana as a polemic in key Mahayana Sutras, but I agree that there is other views on the issue, and that an overview of the different arguments can be highlighted in the Hinayana article.)

We can examine etymology, and general usage in a context-neutral position. Introduce history and modern usage, leading to following sections. We can actively help to discourage a perjorative sense of the word. We can re-assert the meaning according to Mahayana usage.

I really like Mahas ideas about using it to a reciprocated link to the discussion of the Yanas as a group. (IMHO, it's uses as a polemical device should go under a different title called Buddhist Polemics
 * The 1,3,5 and 6 yanas
 * the historical development of the terminolgy
 * it's use a taxonomy for teachings,

 * OK. I'll work on something for Buddhist Polemics. I would think I can move most of the 'ultraism' stuff to BPS. Yana is a bit cryptic for the lay reader, but I notice that vehicle already has a cross reference to the Buddhist use of the word so I figure we can build on that. I can, if you like provide specific examples from the White Lotus Sutra, The Vimalakirti Nirdesha in which the word is used as a Polemic - because it is there and needs explaining within the context of what you are saying. mahābāla 15:52, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

A Mahayana History of the term Hinayana
Could explain how the arisal of the concept of non-Mahayana practice led to the term. Could also explain current usage as a technical term to indicate practitioners who have fallen from Bodhichitta.

 * I think this series of sections sound a bit too much like an apologetic for using the term. If you don't think of it as perjorative, then why apologise? I think it will be better to just state the 'facts' of how the term is used. I do concede that few Mahayanists are actually attacking the Hinayana these days - the whole thing has become fossilised.

 * User: 20040302 Well, it depends on whether we can reconcile the 'facts'! If we can, then there is no need to labour over different POV, but where we currently are there still appears to be a difference of view concerning facts.

 * When you say things like practitioners who have fallen from Bodhichitta it just rings alarm bells in my head. There is no sense in which the Arahants could be described as having fallen from the Bodhicitta - so we have some explaining to do yeah?

 * User: 20040302 Yes - The point here is that the sutras were addressed to those wishing to follow the Mahayana path; therefore Arhats are not fallen from Bodhichitta. Indeed the Ekayana suggests that Arhats will 'wake up' as Arya Bodhisattvas and continue on to Buddhahood in many eons hence.  (This is an extension of the Nirvana-with/out-remainder debate).

 * We need to show how it was that the idea that someone previously thought to have attained "final nibbana" could fall away from that. Maybe a section on the way the title of Arahant was applied. I think we need to explain for instance how Sariputta became the butt of jokes in the Vimalakirti Nirdesha, when he was previously an Arahant (in the full sense of that term). mahābāla 16:06, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

A Mahayana definition of Hinayana
Allows us to offer an edifying re-statement about the development of the term within it's own context. This should possibly include noting (with citation) that:
 * Mahayana traditions acknowledge that the Hearer sutras were spoken by Buddha and are therefore not to be criticised.
 * Mahayana traditions do not condemn Hinayana literature (at least sutra)
 * Mahayana traditions do not condemn Hinayana practice
 * Mahayana traditions do not assert that Hinayana practice is unnecessary
 * Mahayana traditions do not deny the enlightenment of Hinayana practitioners
 * etc.

A Scholastic History of the term Hinayana
It would be really great to find out just how the definition arose. If there is a good source that its modern usage is derived from early Mahayana, I would accept (as citation) a Mahayana primary source that categorically defines Hinayana to be a "term used to identify ancient Indian schools of Buddhism that are now mostly extinct." Could explain how the arisal of the requirement for a term referring to 'ancient buddhist schools' led to current usage.
 * scholars realized that there were old, extinct (sub)schools which were not exactly Theravada, but were still part of the same general phylum, and wished to use a label for them.
 * etc.

A Scholastic definition of Hinayana
Allows us to demonstrate the contrast between original contexts and current scholastic uses. We can possibly then demonstrate how this has led to interpretations of e.g. Lotus suggesting early friction.

Hinayana as a Mahayana term vs. Hinayana as a scholastic term
This remains an interesting issue, and warrants some discussion or explanation. This can be kept separate from the above articles.

Theravada/Scholastic views of Hinayana as perjorative
This is on-topic, and relevant. (Maybe we split or subsume the Theravada/Scholastic component) Accusations towards Mahayana that rotate around the word Hinayana. A distinct Scholastic view is not necessary, but may be interesting alternative to Theravada in some contexts.
 * coined as a way of lampooning and denigrating followers of the Shravakayana
 * 'Hinayana' is unquestionably negative
 * etc.

Mahayana defenses of Hinayana as pejorative
This remains a fascinating area to me. I don't want to sit on a fence about this one.
 * NOT coined as a way of lampooning and denigrating followers of the Shravakayana
 * Hinayana refers to the falling (from the grace) of Bodhicitta.
 * In Mahayana literature, Hinayana does not represent the Theravada (or other schools)

 * Ah, only school which try to defend usage of hinayana as non-pejorative is Tibetan. FWBOarticle
 * Actually, this is not the case, FWBOarticle. The late Indian Nalanda tradition established, with many reasonings, that hinayana was not coined in a pejorative manner.
 * You mean Indian Nalanda tradition preserved in Tibet. :D FWBOarticle

 * The Nalanda tradition is Indian, not Tibetan. the Nalanda tradition has been preserved (to some degree or another) in Tibet, Nepal, Bhutan, Sikkim, Ladakh, Bengal, Vietnam, and other places. But Nalanda was Indian.  Therefore, it is not a Tibetan issue. However, it appears you aren't interested in discussion, but a mere re-iteration of your convictions. (20040302)

 * So this entire section is pointless unless you switch it to Tibetan defence.
 * Currently, the main article does indeed indicate that this stance is Tibetan.
 * Well but we are talking about Mahayana defence here. I can't recall a single existing Mahayana school which try to argue that Hinayana is not pejorative.  FWBOarticle 15:13, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * It appears your recollection is not that vast. I suggest you spend more time studying the vast number of late Indian mahayana scripture. Maybe, start off with Asvagiosha, Nagarjuna, Candrakirti, Santideva, Atisha, and Sangharakshita (the original one). Nalanda was not in Tibet. (20040302)

 * The reason Tibetan schools try to defend use of hinayana is due to their three wheel scheme which consider all nikaya, mahayana and tantric as valid.

 * Well, there are some knotty issues here - most Mahayana traditions (other than some pure land schools) accept that most of the Sutras are 'valid' - or spoken by the Buddha- there are no schools that accept all Sutras as valid, including the Tibetan schools. The discussion of the validity of Sutras is an ancient one, and certainly could be dealt with elsewhere in more detail.

 * Mahayana school accept Pali sutra to be valid. But that doesn't stop them from call other schools which follow Pali as inferior/heretic based on their practice.  Very common in Islam. :)

 * Islam is a straw man, FWBO- give me evidence to support that e.g. the Indian Mahayana school was pejorative towards Hinayana.

 * In Tibet, pejorative implication of Hinayana has been transformed into something else due to their three wheel synthesis doctrine. I also suspect that Tibetan translation of Hinayan only means small wheel and devoid of prjorative implication in Sanskrit lingo.  FWBOarticle

 * I think you misunderstand the relationship between India and Tibet. Regardless, you must do better than merely re-state what you have already said. I disagree with your thesis that the 'three-wheel synthesis' is Tibetan. Show me that it originated in Tibet, and when, and by whom. Or do you think that Atisha was Tibetan, rather than Bengali? (20040302)

 * This entry would improve so much if you simply treat hinayana as Mahayanan perojative against Nikya schools, then trace the development of Mahayanan sutras in regard to this polemic. Afterward, you can have a section explaining how Tibetan alter the pejorative meaning of hinayana in their system.

 * If you read the extensive discussion on this page, maybe you will agree that things are not as clear as you may believe. The Vimalakirti Sutra is often cited as being en example of pejorativity, - however, if we read the the sutra, we find:

 * It is not clear because we start off from tibetan. Mahayanan schools no longer dispute?  We don't need to make Hinayana non projective for Mahayana.  Mahayana buddhism accept hinayana to be projetive and use Theravada whenever they can.  The issue is entirely tibetan.  The fact that this does not sit well with Tibetan buddhism's mahanayan heritage is not the concern of mahayanan buddhism.

 * Para 1: "[...] Of bhikshus there were eight thousand, all arhats. They were free from impurities and afflictions, and all had attained self-mastery. Their minds were entirely liberated by perfect knowledge [...]"

 * This is debate about status of Arahat, not the term Hinayana.

 * Haha - the Vimalakirti (along with the Lotus) is the most often cited text for a pejorative stance, and now you claim that it is solely concerned with the status of an Arhat!! So, tell me friend, where is the pejorative stance that you claim the Mahayana have had?  Show me primary literature. Show me the verses in the Vimalakirti which are so pejorative against Hinayana: Not bhiksus! Nor arhats! According to you, that would be about the status of Arhats- I am not aware of the mention of 'Hinayana' being present who were not Bhikshus! And of course, Para 1 says that all the 8000 Bhikshus present were Arhats.  (20040302)

 * Similar paragraphs are found in the Lotus and other sutras. The issues that are discussed in these sutras are primarily concerning the development of Bodhicitta, and are quite clearly focussed towards a Mahayana audience. For a Bodhisattva - to lose one's commitment to achieve Buddhahood for the benefit of all beings (to lose Bodhicitta) - would indeed be a downfall.  There are plenty of Nikaya sutras (and Nikaya Jataka) that distinguish between the Bodhisattva and the Arhat - remember that NO-ONE disputes that Sakyamuni Buddha was a Bodhisattva Buddha - and NO-ONE disputes that a Buddha is distinct from an Arhat.  I agree that there are differences of opinion concerning the state of Nirvana, but that belongs to another article. So, in order to demonstrate that 'hinayana' was coined in a pejorative sense, you will need to find primary source material that demonstrates it.  Not an easy task.

 * This is again debate about status of Arahat, not the term Hinayana. One can debate, say, whether every Caucasians in 19th century considered black as inferior. Also, the term black may have been inappropriately applied to Australian Aboliginies or Dravidian Indian.  But when the word N***** is used, every one know what it mean and there is no point debating whether N word is a projetive word or not.

 * Aha! Once again, you do not check your sources. Try going to Nigger, where you will be told '"Nigger" is almost always pejorative' - see? NOT always, but ALMOST always. Even the term Nigger requires context to be pejorative. There are times, contexts, and circumstances where it does not have a pejorative implication. Now, let us examine the philosophy and purpose of the Mahayana schools - they cannot hold an ultraist position (because of the middle-way philosophy), and they wish to use Upaya - skill-in-method - to benefit all beings, on the grounds of the beings themselves - the basis of the Bodhisattva practice is to completely relinquish slef-centredness - to continually be aware of the needs of all beings, without judgement or discrimination. The bodhisattva listens to the words of Lord Buddha, but also looks at his own actions - and sees Lord Buddha's greatest teachings in terms of an example to follow.  I would be fascinated for you to explain how such a selfless stance can be interpreted in the manner of deciding to damn those who wish to tread the path of the Arhats! Motive? Purpose? Evidence? All I hear is an ongoing accusation, based upon glossed interpretations of the various potential meanings of the hina- prefix. (20040302)

 * A different argument against the term Hinayana being pejorative is that Mahayanists do not consider any word to be inherently derisory or non-derisory. Words serve a purpose, and the sole purpose of the Bodhisattva is the acceptance of the responsibility of enlightening activity.

 * Huh, they do and that is why they have decided to change it to Theravada. I hear that kind of arguments from Tibetan quite often but not from Mahayanan schools.

 * Huh - they don't. What has happened in recent years is that certain Theravadins and Westerners (e.g. the FWBO) have interpreted the word to be pejorative - a Fundamental attribution error.  This NOT being the intent of the Mahayanists, the Mahayana have done what they can to restate the meaning of the term in a manner that is NOT pejorative for those who wish to interpret it as such.  Be careful. (20040302)

 * Another argument against the term Hinayana being pejorative would be that there is a Fundamental attribution error on behalf of the Theravadins (and the FWBO) - they have simply missed the point.

 * Oh, you mean Theravadan is not Hinayanan line of argument. That is slightly better argument.  Still doesn't change the word hinayana itself being projetive though.

 * See above. (20040302)

 * Also, to requote - One of the core aspects of the Mahayana can be found in the development of the ideas of Nagarjuna. Nagarjuna's ideas (especially as developed in the Madhyamaka tradition) could not and would not accept a position of ultraism, and therefore the very idea of being pejorative is an anathema - why? Because the very notion of being 'better' than something else requires an assertion from a non-contextual stance - something which Nagarjuna does his best to avoid. Therefore, the Mahayana could not (and do not) accept that they are non-contextually 'better' than the Hinayana, and certainly would not go so far as to ridicule or dismiss the Hinayana thoughts or traditions as being unimportant, non-valuable, poor or inferior. (20040302 08:34, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC))

 * Yes, that is why Mahayanan schools now a day find the whole existence of the word, hinayana, to be rather embarassing and ditched the word and replaced it with Theravadan. I come across the above kind of argument only after I got here in the West. I was going "WTF".

 * No - the Mahayanist do not find the term embarrasing - they became aware of the attribution error, and so, accordingly, have been looking for alternatives that will not produce such a violent reaction from those who consider the Mahayanists are being elitist. Think.. My argument of Nagarjuna is hardly modern.  It goes back nearly 2000 years, to the dawn of Mahayana.  Please give me sources (original, primary sources) that show that the term Hinayana was coined to have a pejorative stance.. You have not done that. You just continue to restate your opinion; show me sutra, show me Indian source texts that unequivacably use 'Hinayana' in a pejorative stance. (20040302)

Here are the the reason.

 * 1. Hinayana cannot mean small vehicle in sanskrit. Pali/Sanskrit word for small is "Cuula".  The word, hina, is from the root, hā: to cast off, discard, shun. Hina means inferior, low, poor, miserable, vile, base, abject, contemptible, despicable, rejected, thrown away, scorned. Hence small is only derivertive implication.. While it is possible to use hinayana in cotext of vile/inferior/poor vehicle without meaning small vehicle, the reverse does not work.

 * Interesting idea, but poor examination - and once again a straw man. The term 'Hina-' does not have to mean 'small' for my arguments, -it only has to mean inferior. The Arhat path is recognised as being inferior to the path of the Bodhisattva within Nikaya sutra. Remember, no-one ever disputed that Gautama was a Bodhisattva.  No-one disputed that his qualities were greater than those of the Arhats. Inferior is not necessarily pejorative - it is a relative term, and in this case, relative to the Bodhisattva path. There are many, many contexts where the term 'inferior' is not pejorative. I claim, with reason, that this is one of them. (20040302)

 * 2. One do not have to go to Mahayan source for projective implication. Hina being projetive is already clear in Tripitaka.  Famous first sermon of Buddah, Buddha says: "These two extremes, monks, are not to be practised by one who has gone forth from the world. What are the two? That conjoined with the passions and luxury, low (hiina), coarse, vulgar, ignoble and harmful ...".  The usage is exactly the same in Mahanana version in Lalitavistara.  In Tripitaka, hina is always used in combination of hiina-majjhima-pa.niita, that is: bad - medium - good but never as small. In Mahayanan Mahayanasutralankara, Asanga says: "There are three groups of people: hiina-madhyama-vishishta ...(bad – medium – excellent)."

 * Neither of us dispute the ambiguity, of the prefix Hina-, but its useage is not merely pejorative. It has different contexts, and different meanings according to context. Also, I dispute your gloss on translation - it is not "Bad, Medium, Excellent", So much as 'inferior, medium and excellent' - For instance, if we wish to divide the intelligence of the population into three groups, we may say low height, medium height, and tall height - We would not normally say 'Bad' -- and of course you know there is a sanskrit word for 'Bad'. And it is not 'Hina-'.   While we are talking of this, is it pejorative to state that some people have low height? is it? (20040302)

 * 3. When the term hinayana is used in any Mahanaya scripture such as Lotus Sutras and Vimalakirti Sutra it is always used as inferior to Mahayanan way.  Hina is used as bad in Sanskrit scriptures and when small is meant cuula is used.

 * Not merely these sutras, but also the Nikaya sutras and the Jatakas. There are many instances where the distintion between Arhats and Lord Buddha are made in Nikaya sutra.  The Bodhisattva path does not solely belong to the Mahayana schools.  The Nikaya sutras accept that Buddha was a bodhisattva, and also accept that he was superior to the arhats because he was a bodhisattva.  What the Nikaya schools reject is that the paths as interpreted by the Mahayana schools are valid Bodhisattva paths– (or, if they are considered by Nikaya to be valid, the nature of Nirvana does not differ between the path of the Arhat, and the path of the Bodhisattva - merely that the path of the Bodhisattva takes much longer to fulfil). Be very careful. This is a subtle issue. (20040302)

The people who composed Mahayana sutras spoke Sanskrit. They were not like Tibetan, Chinese Korean or Japanese who relied on translated text. They knew exactly what Hina means in Sanskirit when they coined the term Hinayana. I can't recall single Mahayan school which try to defend this. So why do we bother to debate it? Such thing can be done in Tibetan section but I don't see a point doing it in Mahayanan section. when such attempt. FWBOarticle

 * It appears that your entire argument rests on the basis that the prefix Hina- is necessarily pejorative, regardless of context. I dispute that, on the grounds that the Mahayana schools have always rejected assertions of objective truth - which entails that NO word, term, or phrase has any inherent qualities to it, including the 'Hina-' prefix.

 * Therefore we can say without doubt that the Mahayana schools did not, could not and would not agree that the prefix Hina- is objectively pejorative. As this appears to be the sole basis of your argument, - a position that we know the Mahayana disputed - we can safely say that the Mahayana did not coin the term Hinayana as a pejorative against the Nikaya traditions. You have done my work for me. (20040302)

 * I will be away for 3 weeks. I am interested in continuing this discussion, and I propose that we both go away and do more study regarding this knotty issue. I will not be impressed by the mere assertion that the prefix 'Hina-' is objectively pejorative.  You also need to show that the ideas that you attribute to the Tibetans are indeed Tibetan. I do not think that they are. Keep well, and be happy.  (20040302)

=Other Issues=

(OT) Theravada view of the Mahayana largely as heresy, along with Mahayana defenses
This is an interesting area that warrants attention, but which is mostly off-topic. It can also include a nice section on the authenticity (or otherwise) of Mahayana sutras. We need an article title for it- Maha suggests Buddhist Polemics which seems good to me. We cn then possibly link to it from Hinayana, but more appropriately Mahayana

(OT) Mahayana and Hinayana views of Nirvana
Once again, a fascinating discussion, with plenty of scholarship (both occidental and oriental) behind it. It seems much more appropriate under the article Nirvana.

(OT) Buddhist Ultraism
Once again, a fascinating discussion, but we all agree it is off-topic here (except in respect to the subtitles above) It seems much more appropriate under some other article though. (Nat suggested the rather long-winded Ultraism in Buddhist Apologetics)

The remaining discussion is left for Nat, if you are interested. Delete it if you do not wish to continue the discussion. Or move it somewhere else if you want!

It may well be true that this concept originates in Western thought, but I fail to see how this makes it particularly less valid.

 * User: 20040302 Interesting.  For example though, take Tantra by far the most common meaning in English is 'kinky indian sex', with the emphasis placed on sex.  Does this mean that the wikipedia article on Tantra should reflect the common meaning?  Or should we attempt to be edifying and help to move people away from such an attribution?  Seriously.  If we were always to accept that popular understanding should be reflected in an encyclopedia, then words such as 'opaque' would mean transluscent! Again, the majority of the human population does not know that the earth orbits the sun.  Does this mean that it is not so, or should not be reflected in an encyclopedia.  Please.

 * Krause An interesting philaletic (or somesuch) topic.  First, is the most common use of the word "Tantra" as a type of sex (a google search indicates that you may be right), and do most of the people in the world think that the sun orbits the earth?  I don't know.  Second, the sun does orbit the earth, per Einstein's theory of relativity, although this is starting to get afield of our purpose.  Third, why doesn't the dictionary describe "opaque" as meaning "translucent"?  If that is the way most people use the expression, it probably does (at least as a secondary definition)!  Along the same lines, the entry on Tantra does talk about sex; it gives a whole section-heading to the subject.

 * Krause I think that we should look at what distinguishes the examples you mention from the example of Hinayana. Frankly, you are talking about rather trivial and half-formed opinions.  Very few people, having devoted even a limited amount of serious thought to these subjects, would see "tantra", "opaque", or "the movement of the spheres" in the light you describe -- most of them would probably admit that they know very little about the subject.  "Hinayana", on the other hand, is used in the sense of a school or class of schools frequently by people who are genuinely attempting to understand what it is.

 * User: 20040302 Be careful here not to fall into academic elitism (or ultraism) here. Also, If we create a term to describe a preconception we have about something, it does not necessarilly legitimize either the term or our preconception. Phlogiston was all the rave once - and at least it was a neologism.  That was used by people who were geunilly attempting to understand what it was. We have  alternatives to describe the ancient sangha schools (terms such as Shramana), which are neither insulting, nor misapplied. Why do you see a need to perpetuate a misapplied term?

 * Krause In either case, this seems like a matter of degree rather than of kind.  Even a mistaken opinion is worth mentioning at least briefly in order to show how it compares to reality.  In the case of "tantra" and "opaque" the popular understanding is (or should be) addressed -- it is not actually wrong but simply incomplete.  Likewise, the Hinayana article should mention all senses of that term.  I would argue, on the grounds I mentioned above, which are that it will be more informative and meaningful to most of our readers, that the "Hinayana school" sense should take precedence.

 * User: 20040302 Well, up until the last sentence, I agree totally.  Indeed, there is an issue of incompleteness, and yes, there are Mahayana references (at least in secondary literature) that talk about Hinayana schools - but I would 'still' argue that the references are not talking about the ancient schools in particular, but rather schools that are solely concerned with the atttainment of the Hearer objective: namely Arhatship.

 * User: 20040302 I am aware that I am attempting some form of linguistic conservatism here. We already have seen words like Yoga come to represent just Hatha Yoga or even Physical Fitness with a touch of Indian mystique thrown in.  Also terms such as Meditation are now so ambiguous that anyone can claim to be teaching it - even golf coaches.  The issue of Hinayana though is that it implies that the Mahayana traditions have something against the non-Mahayana schools.  I don't think that they do.  I think such an attitude has arrived from second-hand scholarship and pre-conception leading to poor translation.  I may be wrong. It is just hard to see the suggested criticism in any active Mahayana lineage that I have had contact with, (Primarily Tibetan, Korean and Zen) both in texts and from teachings. The 18 root Bodhisattva vows (a lineage that goes back at least 1200 years, which are solemnly taken and recited daily by all Gelukpa practitioners and many others) have as the 14th vow "I shall not discredit the Listener's Vehicle".  This includes criticizing, rejecting or discrediting either the Sravaka or Pratyeka traditions. It is a grave root downfall to suggest that the Hinayana path does not lead to Nirvana.  Moreover, the 6th root vow "I shall not give up the Dharma" is broken by having the attitude that the Mahayana is the highest and most suitable Dharma and that the Hinayana teaching is inferior and not suitable to practice. (So many texts talk about this - but in English, there is Lobsang Tarchin ISBN 0-918753-16-3) with extensive primary and secondary indian souces cited).

 * User: 20040302 Therefore, there must be some misconception about the term and the use of the term, and the attribution of criticism placed by Western academics who appear to re-apply their definition onto primary material.  Or can you see something that I am missing?

 * So look at:|Vimalakirti Nirdesha

 * Well there is the dictionary defn of the word Hīna which is less than charitable as I think you'll agree.
 * section 6 at the beginning.
 * section 7 The Goddess. The incident of the flowers sticking to the Arahants but not the Bodhistattvas - is saying that the Arahants are not enlightened.
 * At the begining of the White Lotus 500 Arahants are depicted as walking out on the Buddha because they don't believe there is a higher teaching. Can't find this on the net, but there are plenty of available translations.

 * User: 20040302 Yes, it appears that way for many readers. But the general commentary on this from lineage holders involves understanding that the venerable Sariputra was magically influenced by the Buddha for the entire duration of the Sutra; regardless, he appeared in the way he did (and all the other attributed effects happened) as a mechanism of Buddha's Upaya (skill in means), for the purpose of allowing the conversation to be held. The justification for this is found in line one, and the whole of paragraph one of the sutra.

 * Line 1: "Reverence to all Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, Aryasravakas, and Pratyekabuddhas, in the past, the present, and the future" Indicates nothing but reverence

 * Para 1: "[...] Of bhikshus there were eight thousand, all saints. They were free from impurities and afflictions, and all had attained self-mastery. Their minds were entirely liberated by perfect knowledge [...]"
 * (translation as cited).

 * Similar rationales are found in the White Lotus etc.
 * These activities are solely a part of skill-in-means.

 * The key word here is rationale. The Pali commentaries are full of eel wriggling in order to make the Suttas fit the pattern of later, Theravada, biases. I don't think anything you have written refutes that fact that 500 Arahants walk out of the Sutra! But I'm finding following this discussion on the format of these pages very difficult to read. I suggest that we switch to email, or perhaps one of the Buddhist ngs. What do you say? mahābāla 17:27, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * So there is a discrepancy between the Vajrayana book which you are quoting, and the Mahayana Sutras I am quoting. I think we need to make a distinction between Mahayana and Vajrayana approaches. It is not true to say that Tibetan Buddhism is representative of Buddhism outside Tibetan - extensive citing or not - and this is as true of Vajrayana as Mahayana. If you start looking at websites that come up under "Mahayana Arahant" on Google you will find many of them (all that I looked at) repeating the various polemical attitudes that I have described. I've yet to see one that upheld the view which you are describing. mahābāla 16:33, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * User: 20040302 Well, actually the Bodhisattva vows do not come from the Vajrayana. Also, the Vajrayana (bar a couple of tiny schools in Vietnam and Nepal) is a subset of the Mahayana. The Bodhisattva vows that I am familiar with  come directly from the late Nalanda tradition (like around the 10thC). (thnx for sig. mention!) 20040302 17:06, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Actually I'm reading Kukai a lot at the moment and he went to a lot of trouble to distinquish exoteric from esoteric, and he definitely considered all forms of Mahayana to be exoteric, and thereby merely provisional. So Japanese Vajrayana certainly does not consider itslef as a subset of the Mahayana!

 * User: 20040302 I read quite a bit of Kukai last year- interesting stuff. I query this exoteric, and thereby merely provisional. My understanding of exoteric in this context is that it means 'not secret', as opposed to 'secret'. I would like to read your views on this.

 * User: 20040302 On reflection, I guess my use of the term subset is misleading - what I was attempting to imply was that (generally) you need to be Mahayana in order to practice Tantrayana. I think there is a reference to this in the Mahavairochanatantra - I shall have a look soon.

=Etymology= I'm taking a look at my Monier-Williams (the definitive Sanskrit-English dictionary), as etymology, while not utterly decisive, often sheds some light not issues:

hīnayena from hīna+yena. The latter part is "vehicle; the former part...

In the Rigveda: "left, abandoned, forsaken" In the Menavadharmaśestra and Mehabherata, "&c.: "left behind, excluded or shut out from, lower or weaker than, inferior to" According to a Yejñavalkya: "defeated or worsted (in a lawsuit") In the ṣatapatha Breḥmana: "deficient, faulty, insufficient, short, incomplete, poor, little, low, vile, bad, base, mean...

The term is derived from √he, meaning to leave, abandon, or forsake.

So, etymologically speaking, the term clearly has a pejorative connotation, and I think it's fair to assume that it had that meaning when it originated in Mahāyāna sutras, though in the interim the Mahāyāna folks may well have toned the rhetoric down and adopted a more neutral stance.

 * We risk being persuaded by dictionary rather than context. Although there are many different uses to the word, (some of which can be read as perjorative), we have to examine purpose. The Tibetan translations are almost invariably 'THEG CHUNG' (ACIP translit.), which is literally 'small path'. Sometimes they translate it 'THEG SMAD', - the SMAD can be read as inferior, but generally is not understood to mean that here. 'BU SMAD' is the Tibetan for girl (whereas 'BU' is boy), and this is not meant in a pejorative or dismissive tone.

 * Here is an argument (and why I disagree about 'clearly' above!) against it's pejorativeness: One of the core aspects of the Mahayana can be found in the development of the ideas of Nagerjuna.  Nagerjuna's ideas (especially as developed in the Madhyamaka tradition) could not and would not accept a position of ultraism - why?  Because the very notion of being 'better' than something else requires an assertion from a non-contextual stance - something which Nagerjuna does his best to avoid. Therefore, the Mahayana could not (and do not) accept that they are non-contextually 'better' than the Hinayana, and certainly would not go so far as to ridicule or dismiss the Hinayana thoughts or traditions as being unimportant, non-valuable, poor or inferior.  Plenty of Mahayana writers of Nalanda have stated that the Hinayana sutras are valuable and useful, stating that only the component that concerns itself with sole liberation is to not to be accepted by a Bodhisattva, as it is not appropriate to the Bodhisattva path. (20040302 13:08, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC))

 * First off, just because mh of Buddhism rejects absolute truth-claims in linguistic form (including, you're quite right, Nagarjuna's eloquent elaboration of the two-truths doctrine), does not mean that it cannot make value judgments. As you say, it can make no non-contextual value judgments; but nothing stops it from making contextual ones. (i.e., Your doctrine isn't as useful as ours for achieving enlightenment.)

 * Also, Nāgārjuna is not at all representative of the Mahāyāna. I won't assert, as David Kalupahana does, that he's a Theravedin, but he's different. I like to think of him as "proto-Mahāyāna." In any case, while he does reject the possibility of taking any position, this is (a) not as strongly asserted in the rest of Buddhism as it is in certain Madhyamaka writings (and a couple of other places), and (b) not automatically exclusive of polemics, as Nāgārjuna still recognizes more and less worthwile doctrines. He simply recognizes them as better or worse "common practice," and not representing ultimate reality.कुक्कुरोवाच 14:23, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * Thank-you very much for your insights, Kukku. My small argument remains that there is an argument for saying: The term Hinayana is not clearly pejorative, which I hope you appreciate (in light of this discussion).

 * The larger argument (concerning value judgments) is probably more interesting for discussion.

 * `rejects absolute truth-claims in linguistic form` This seems to be an apparent gloss. AFAIK there is little in any texts that distinguishes between the linguistic and the experiential. Also, such dichotomies appear to descend from cartesian philosophic concepts: Do you not agree that Nagarjuna's work would be less powerful at removing self-grasping if we were to accept that he was solely talking about the linguistic components of truth claims?

 * (I assert that Nagarjuna is first of all a practitioner. His purpose is to eliminate self-grasping and to assist his readers to eliminate the same. So the efficaciousness of his work in this manner is of deep import).

 * Secondly, I feel that the Mahayana can make claims of absolute truth, -even the existence of a soul and a god- as long as the claims themselves are what is most efficacious at the time of their use.  What this means though, is that they cannot be stuck onto the Mahayana as a set of facts about what the Mahayana think; they remain what they are - statements in the contexts within which they were used.  This is Upaya.  I disagree completely that Upaya was developed as a legitimisation of badmouthing! Instead, it is a necessary consequence of Madhyamaka; that any action is done according to circumstance, and that there is no real scale against which actions may be measured.  So, yes, the Mahayana may say "This is better, this is worse", but the statement itself has nothing to do with what is truly better, and everything to do with what is relevant to the audience at the time.

 * Upaya also allows for scholarship- we can build castles, but we must remember that the castles are still just that. Being able to know that a castle is just a castle prevents us from getting attached to one set of views or concepts, and allows us to identify the usefulness of them according to the situation at hand.

 * So, back to my earlier point- The very notion of being 'better' than something else requires a belief in a non-contextual scale of betterness, therefore the Madhyamaka Mahayana cannot believe that they are better, though in specific circumstances they may assert it.

 * Anyway, there is so much to say on this and so little time! (20040302 09:50, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC))

 * Most of this of course demonstrates the distinct difference of Buddhism from the Ibrahimic tradition - the very idea of any absolute scale (of quality, rightness or what-have-you) is an anathema, and it is for these reasons that I disagree with contributers when they assert that the Mahayana (and Vajrayana) traditions claim to hold a 'better' or 'more accurate' truth. Instead, I favour the position that these traditions identify that there are people for whom each path is relavant, that there is no 'ONE TRUE PATH', but that individuals must find the path that suits them best.  AFAIK, there is plenty of evidence (e.g. multiple objects for Samatha, and the message of beating Buddha's words like a gold assayer) in the earliest of sutras to support this plural, non-final message of Buddhism. The greatest evidence IMHO being the Mahayana interpretation of Anatman. (20040302 13:08, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC))

 * I tend to agree with you on this point as regards Buddhism de jure, but de facto the polemics exist and they're serious. In fact, my historical reading of the concept of upeya (the central underpinning of the view that there is no one true path in Buddhism) is that it began precisely as a way of badmouthing other schools without inciting a schism; you called them inferior ways designed for the dim-witted as concessions to stupidity. I have a paper where I discussed some of these issues for a class on Asian mysticism...::rifles through web:: here: Two excerpts I used from the Lotus sutra:

These people of few qualities and little merit Are afflicted by various sufferings. They enter into the jungle of sixty-two false views Such as: “This does exist,” or “This does not exist.” They are so firmly and deeply attached to false teachings That they cannot get rid of them… That is why, O Shariputra, I devised the method of teaching The way to extinguish all suffering through nirvana.… All phenomena have the tranquil character Of the Dharma: This could not be expressed in words, So I taught the five monks Through the power of skillful means. This I named: “Turning the Wheel of the Dharma,’ And immediately the word nirvana appeared in it And the different designations for Arhat, Dharma and Sangha. From a great many kalpas ago I have always taught like this: I have praised and illuminated The teaching of nirvana, Saying that it ends the sufferings Of birth and death. (Tsugunari and Yuyama, 41, 48, emphasis added.)

and

“Having openly set aside skillful means,/I will teach only the highest path/To all the Bodhisattvas.” (Tsugunari and Yuyama, 49

 * Well - I confess I have always had a bit of a struggle with the Lotus sutra; and I find the idea that one can set aside Upaya deeply suspicious, (except of course as Upaya itself!) (20040302 09:54, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC))

If I can scrounge up a copy of Edgerton's Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit Dictionary, I can probably provide more information. I wish I owned a copy...
 * https://www.vedamsbooks.com/no34753.htm $60 Reprinted this year.

 * Mar. 2 writes: One of the core aspects of the Mahayana can be found in the development of the ideas of Nagerjuna. Nagerjuna's ideas (especially as developed in the Madhyamaka tradition) could not and would not accept a position of ultraism - why?  Because the very notion of being 'better' than something else requires an assertion from a non-contextual stance - something which Nagerjuna does his best to avoid. Therefore, the Mahayana could not (and do not) accept that they are non-contextually 'better' than the Hinayana, and certainly would not go so far as to ridicule or dismiss the Hinayana thoughts or traditions as being unimportant, non-valuable, poor or inferior.

 * Does this mean that we would not consider any term used by a Mahayanist to be derisory? What about "detestable", "weak", "idiotic", "ugly", or even words like "nigger" or "gook"? - Nat Krause 13:57, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * I would agree with the assertion. This is because a Mahayanist does not consider any word to be inherently derisory or non-derisory.  Words serve a purpose, and the sole purpose of the Bodhisattva is the acceptance of the responsibility of enlightening activity.  You yourself (and now I) have just used the word nigger in a way which is non-derisory.  We have used it to show how some words involve strong emotional reactions.  So it is not the word, but the context of the word.  It is not merely the context (in text), but also the purpose of the author.  The purpose (by definition) of the Mahayana is enlightening activity.  So, rather than saying "Oh, the Mahayanist was being derisory in such-and-such a place", we can ask ourselves "So, what was the situation of this statement that required the Mahayanist to behave in a manner that appears to be derisory?" (20040302 09:50, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC))

title: Talk:Hinayana/Archive 1


text:
Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain

Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain is the second studio album by American indie rock band Pavement, released on February 14, 1994, by Matador Records. The album saw the band move on towards a more accessible rock sound than that of their more lo-fi debut Slanted and Enchanted and achieve moderate success with the single "Cut Your Hair". The album also saw original drummer Gary Young replaced by Steve West. It was a UK Top 20 hit upon release, although it was not so successful in the US charts.

Release
Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain was released on February 14, 1994, by Matador Records. As of 2009, the album had sold about 500,000 copies.

In 2004, Matador released Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain: LA's Desert Origins, a compilation containing the album in its entirety, as well outtakes and other rarities from the same era.

Critical reception
AllMusic's Stephen Thomas Erlewine gave Crooked Rain a perfect five-star rating, describing it as "the Reckoning to Slanted & Enchanted's Murmur". He concluded that the album was "a vibrant, dynamic, emotionally resonant album that stands as a touchstone of underground rock in the '90s and one of the great albums of its decade." Robert Christgau of the Village Voice gave the album an A grade, describing it as "a tour de force melodywise". Entertainment Weekly David Browne gave the album a B+, writing that "Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain is just a bunch of guys dwelling on topics like skateboarding, plane crashes, girls, and mocking Stone Temple Pilots. When they set those sentiments to bumpy-road drones or a bit of a country lilt...the result has a subtle, ingratiating beauty." Los Angeles Times critic Richard Cromelin gave the album 3.5 out of 4 stars. Cromelin wrote that the album contains "some of the Meat Puppets' loopiness, a Stones/Burritos folk-country resonance, and a chirpy pop tunefulness--along with enough contrary abrasiveness to keep you from getting too comfortable with them."

Legacy
In 2003, the album was ranked number 210 on Rolling Stone magazine's list of the 500 greatest albums of all time, and 212 in a 2012 revised list. In the 2020 update of the list, the album's rank dropped to number 434. It was also ranked number 10 on their best albums of the Nineties. In 2003, it was ranked number 8 on Pitchforks list Top 100 Albums of the 1990s, and in 2010, the song "Gold Soundz" was listed as number one on Pitchforks 200 Greatest Songs of the 1990s. In July 2014, Guitar World ranked Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain at number 21 in their "Superunknown: 50 Iconic Albums That Defined 1994" list. The photo in the middle of the cover was taken from the March 1978 issue of National Geographic. The album was also included in the book 1001 Albums You Must Hear Before You Die.

Track listing

 * Notes

Personnel
Credits adapted from the album's liner notes.

Pavement
 * Stephen Malkmus – vocals, guitar, bass
 * Scott Kannberg – guitar, vocals, organ, percussion
 * Mark Ibold – bass, vocals
 * Steve West – drums, percussion
 * Bob Nastanovich – percussion, vocals (credited)

Technical
 * Pavement – production
 * Bryce Goggin – engineer, mixing, piano (9)
 * Mark Venezia – engineer

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain


text: Category:1816 books

title: Category:1816 books


text:
Wowee Zowee

Wowee Zowee is the third studio album by American indie rock band Pavement, released on April 11, 1995, by Matador Records. Most of it was recorded at Easley Recording in Memphis, Tennessee, where some members of the band had previously worked on Silver Jews' 1994 album Starlite Walker. The album showcases a more experimental side of the band, marking a return to the clatter and unpredictability of their early recordings after the more accessible sound of their 1994 studio album Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain. Its eclectic nature ranges from mellow yet distorted melodies to noise and punk rock, while the lyrics generally explore humorous and cryptic themes. At nearly one hour long, Wowee Zowee is Pavement's longest studio album, filling three sides of a vinyl record. Side four was left blank.

Upon release, Wowee Zowee received mixed reviews from critics, being generally deemed as a sloppy effort in comparison to its acclaimed predecessor. However, some reviewers highlighted its adventurous style and Stephen Malkmus' lyricism. Two songs from the album, "Rattled by the Rush" and "Father to a Sister of Thought", were released as singles in 1995, but neither were successful. Despite being notable for ruining any opportunity Pavement had to capitalize on the success of Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain, Wowee Zowee has retrospectively been reappraised in highly positive terms, with Rolling Stone including it in the magazine's 2020 edition of The 500 Greatest Albums of All Time. A compilation containing the album in its entirety as well as B-sides and other rarities, titled Wowee Zowee: Sordid Sentinels Edition, was released in 2006.

Background and recording
Wowee Zowee is the follow-up to Pavement's acclaimed second studio album Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain, which was released in February 1994 and ranked No. 2 in The Village Voice's Pazz & Jop critics' poll. Although the band was starting to get some attention from the mainstream press, they were not interested in signing to a major label. Eight months after the release of their second album, having toured non-stop for two years, Pavement decided to record their next album at Easley Recording in Memphis, Tennessee. Singer and guitarist Stephen Malkmus, percussionist Bob Nastanovich, and drummer Steve West were familiar with the place because they had already worked on Silver Jews' 1994 album Starlite Walker there. Unlike previous Pavement albums, Wowee Zowee was recorded with all five members in attendance.

Although the recording sessions only lasted from November 14 to 24, 1994, Pavement recorded many songs. Some were outtakes from Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain that were re-recorded with better equipment, while others had already been part of the band's setlist for a year. Singer and guitarist Scott Kannberg also wrote a few songs. Previously, he would occasionally write some pieces for Malkmus to sing, but Malkmus encouraged him to sing his own songs this time. The recording sessions, which typically started at noon and ended by 10pm, were very spontaneous. According to Malkmus, "it was just sprawl, just do whatever you want, and don't worry about it fitting together. The less it fits together, the better." Pavement really enjoyed Memphis' relaxed vibe, and would often go out in between sessions to eat at barbecues and drink beer. When the recording sessions concluded, the band mixed and overdubbed the tracks at Random Falls in Manhattan, New York City in February 10–14, 1995, the same studio where they had recorded Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain.

Wowee Zowee is the only Pavement album that was entirely sequenced by Malkmus. The band ended up with more than 20 songs to choose from and originally considered the possibility of putting them all on a record. Kannberg, who had sequenced their previous albums, preferred a cohesive set of roughly 10 songs that would flow together, but Malkmus was keen to include songs that were considered B-sides by the band. Ultimately, a total of 18 songs were included on the album, filling three sides of a vinyl record. Side four was left blank, with an empty thought bubble printed on the label. At nearly one hour long, Wowee Zowee is Pavement's longest studio album. Malkmus explained that, in his mind, everything made sense. He also described the opening track, "We Dance", as "a little torch song thing", and felt that the track would work as a good introduction to the album because it would show that the band was doing something different.

Music and lyrics
Wowee Zowee showcases a more experimental side of Pavement, returning them to the clatter and unpredictability of their early recordings after the more accessible sound of Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain. Distortion and feedback are often combined with mellow melodies, resulting in many songs having unusual structures and disjointed musical styles. Noise rock is prevalent on some tracks, like "Serpentine Pad" and "Best Friends Arm", while "Flux = Rad" is a punk song that was described as reminiscent of Nirvana's "Territorial Pissings". The opening track "We Dance" is a ballad that features acoustic guitars and piano, while "Father to a Sister of Thought" is a quasi-alternative country song that uses a pedal steel guitar. Malkmus played a Gibson SG with P-90 pickups on "Rattled by the Rush", which also features occasional harmonica at points. Due to higher production values, the album generally lacks the lo-fi aesthetic of its predecessors.

Most lyrics on Wowee Zowee explore humorous and cryptic themes. Although many songs give the impression that their lyrics are nonsensical, they can unpack a meaning on further inspection. For example, "Grounded", which suggests that something bad might happen after a doctor leaves for a routine holiday while his unsupervised teenage daughter parties, can be interpreted as an account of middle class decadence. The song "Half a Canyon" mostly focuses on an over-driven guitar sound that Malkmus had never heard before. The lyrics are meaningless and were simply added for decoration; Malkmus said that he screamed so hard towards the end of the song that he scared himself. He thought that he would have an aneurysm and decided to never scream like that again. Kannberg's "Kennel District", which was described as a fuzzy power pop song, is considered one of the album's most accessible songs because it features a traditional verse-chorus-verse structure.

Packaging and release
The cover art for Wowee Zowee is a painting by American artist Steve Keene, who caricatured it from a photograph originally found in Life magazine's 1972 World Library title The Arab World. It depicts two Arab women and a goat. Omitted from Keene's photograph is a girl in a tan dress holding a baby, stationed between the two sitting women. The caption below the original photo reads, "A midday rest is enjoyed by three Arab women and a goat on an arbor-shaded porch. Fellahin women often wear black robes over their other clothing." Malkmus saw the artwork during a live painting session at one of Keene's exhibitions. He chose the piece due to its resemblance to the front cover of Guru Guru's 1972 album Känguru, one that he had always admired. The album's title is a homage to the band's former drummer Gary Young, who would frequently yell "Wowee Zowee" when excited. The phrase "Dick-Sucking Fool at Pussy-Licking School" was originally suggested by Nastanovich as a potential title for Wowee Zowee, but it was discarded after being considered too risky. Nevertheless, the phrase was included in the album's booklet art. The would-be title was a nod to the Rolling Stones' documentary film Cocksucker Blues.

Wowee Zowee was released on April 11, 1995, by Matador Records. Big Cat Records and Domino Records issued the album in Europe, Fellaheen Records released it in Australia, and King and Pony Canyon released Wowee Zowee in Japan. The album peaked at number 18 on the UK Albums Chart and number 25 on the New Zealand Albums Chart. Malkmus chose the songs "Rattled by the Rush" and "Father to a Sister of Thought" to be released as singles on March 30 and June 27, 1995, respectively, but they were not successful. He would later recall that, while his judgment may have been clouded by excessive marijuana usage, both songs "sounded like hits" to him. To promote Wowee Zowee, the band was planning to organize their own festival with fellow bands such as Sonic Youth, the Breeders, and Beck. However, after Sonic Youth was chosen to headline the Lollapalooza music festival in the summer of 1995, they asked for Pavement to be on the bill. Performing at Lollapalooza became the highest profile appearance for the band and gave them an opportunity to earn a lot of money. In early 1996, they performed a few more shows in Australia, Japan, and the US.

Critical reception
Upon release, Wowee Zowee was met with mixed reviews from critics. Rolling Stone editor Mark Kemp described it as a "scattered and sloppy" effort with "half-baked" performances by Malkmus and Kannberg. He also speculated that the relative success of Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain was a reason for the album's eclectic nature, claiming that Pavement were afraid of success. Similarly, the Los Angeles Times editor Lorraine Ali called Wowee Zowee "a sloppy effort, even in Pavement terms", and concluded that the album "comes off lazy and unfinished, never attempting to reach out or connect as previous albums did". Kevin McKeough of the Chicago Tribune felt that the album was inconsistent, highlighting the songs "Rattled by the Rush", "Grounded", and "Kennel District" as "thrilling pleasures", but criticized Malkmus' "insufferably mannered vocals" on "Brinx Job", his "tiresome grunge rant" on "Serpentine Pad", and his "gratuitous screaming" at the end of "Half a Canyon".

In a very negative review, Caroline Sullivan of The Guardian found Wowee Zowee difficult to enjoy, stating that it "probably helps to be a 15-year-old boy to appreciate Pavement", and believed the band does not "release albums so much as in-jokes and their fourth continues the tradition". She added that Malkmus' "monotone occasionally gives way to a pained little yips" and Kannberg "sometimes hits on a lifting melody, but mostly he sounds as confused as his colleagues". Spin writer Eric Weisbard reacted with muted praise, noting the album's "impressively distinct range of sounds and moods", while criticizing Malkmus' unconvincing vocal delivery. He concluded that the album is best enjoyed "at a casual low volume, with little attention paid to the effort and details".

Other critics were more positive. Writing for CMJ New Music Monthly, editor Michael Vazquez considered Wowee Zowee a solid and ambitious album, praising its adventurous style and Malkmus' rich lyricism, but acknowledged that several listens are required for appreciation. Select editor Roy Wilkinson felt that the album has a lot of Pavement's "lazy elegance" and compared the "elegiac sweeps" of "We Dance" to David Bowie's 1971 album Hunky Dory. Robert Christgau of The Village Voice was the album's boldest defender, praising Pavement for favoring lyricism over commerciality. He also felt that the album was mellow and rarely chaotic, concluding: "if their vocation is beguiling song-music that doesn't sound like anything else or create its own rut, this reinforces one's gut feeling that they can do it forever." Despite the middling reviews from most critics, Wowee Zowee was ranked number 17 in the 1995 Pazz & Jop poll.

Legacy
Wowee Zowee ruined any opportunity Pavement had to capitalize on the success of Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain. By June 2009, the album had sold 129,000 copies according to Nielsen SoundScan, a notable drop-off from its predecessor, which had sold 246,000 copies. Kannberg acknowledged that the band felt a bit under pressure to release a follow-up to Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain, and that Wowee Zowee would have been much different if they had given themselves more time to think about it. As a result, Pavement decided to be more patient and work on tidier arrangements for their next studio album, Brighten the Corners (1997). Kannberg regards Wowee Zowee with mixed feelings and considers it his least favorite Pavement record. Conversely, when asked about his favorite Pavement album, Malkmus said, "It would be one of the first three ones, but for different reasons." In 1997, Nastanovich stated that Wowee Zowee is his favorite Pavement record.

Retrospectively, Wowee Zowee has been reappraised in highly positive terms and is frequently viewed by many "diehard" Pavement fans as the band's best work. AllMusic editor Stephen Thomas Erlewine wrote that repeated listenings reveal the album to be "a dense collage of '90s rock & roll that recasts the past and present into one rich, kaleidoscopic, and blissfully cryptic world view". Nina Corcoran of Consequence said that Wowee Zowee has become "the beloved oddball in Pavement's discography", and assumed that the band "knew what they were doing all along, even if we were reluctant to believe them at first". In 2006, Matador released Wowee Zowee: Sordid Sentinels Edition, a compilation containing Wowee Zowee in its entirety, as well as B-sides, outtakes, radio shots, live songs, and compilation tracks from the same era.

According to Rolling Stone writer Rob Sheffield, Wowee Zowee has come to be widely viewed as a "masterpiece". Sheffield explained that people started to appreciate Wowee Zowee after the band released Brighten the Corners, a radical departure that put the album's eclectic nature into perspective. He also remarked that the former was overshadowed by other successful Matador releases, such as Alien Lanes by Guided by Voices and Electr-O-Pura by Yo La Tengo. In 2020, Rolling Stone ranked the album 265th in its updated list of The 500 Greatest Albums of All Time—ahead of Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain and behind Pavement's 1992 debut album, Slanted and Enchanted, which were ranked 434th and 199th, respectively. Several musicians, including American pianist Johnny Iguana, American multi-instrumentalist Jeff Rosenstock, and Filipino-British singer-songwriter Beabadoobee, cited the album as having a profound impact on them.

Personnel
Credits are adapted from the album's liner notes.

Pavement
 * Stephen Malkmus – vocals, guitar, drums on "AT&T", mixing
 * Scott Kannberg – guitar, vocals
 * Mark Ibold – bass
 * Bob Nastanovich – percussion, vocals
 * Steve West – drums, percussion

Additional musicians
 * Doug Easley – pedal steel guitar on "Father to a Sister of Thought", engineer
 * Sibel Firat – cello on "Fight This Generation"

Technical
 * Davis McCain – engineer
 * Mark Venezia – engineer
 * Bryce Goggin – mixing
 * Jan BL – mixing
 * Rich Costey – mixing
 * Gregory Hull – mastering

title: Wowee Zowee


text: Category:1815 books

title: Category:1815 books


text:
Redeemer Lutheran College

Redeemer Lutheran College is a co-educational Lutheran primary and secondary school in Rochedale, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia. Founded in 1980 by Robin Kleinschmidt and other Lutherans in the south of Brisbane, the College currently educates students from years Prep to 12. The college currently has no principal, however the acting principal is Richard Cornish.

Location and grounds
Redeemer is located in Brisbane City in a semi-rural environment. The College campus has much open space, with no building exceeding two stories in height large path infrastructure crossing the grounds.

Doctrinal emphasis
Redeemer focuses on promoting the Lutheran denomination of the Christian faith; however adherents of any belief or none are accepted. Religious instruction is provided via 150 minutes of "Christian Studies" every week from years 6 to 12, and morning devotions in the chapel and in home rooms. Staff are expected to uphold a Christian lifestyle, although there is no official definition of that lifestyle, and most staff members are practising Christians. RLC has a chaplaincy service which is responsible for devotions and other expressions of religious life.

Educational standards
Most senior school-leavers score strongly in the Australian Tertiary Admission Rank (ATAR), with roughly 20% of the graduating cohort achieving an ATAR of 90–99.

Extra-curricular
RLC offers sporting opportunities and competition to musical competitions and debating under the auspices of the Queensland Debating Union. The college has won music competitions such as MusicFest, Queensland Youth Music Awards and the Gold Coast Eisteddfod. It houses many different music ensembles at varying difficulty. There is a broad selection of Concert Bands, String Orchestras, Choirs, Chamber Ensembles and Jazz Groups. As well as varying quartets named after notable school figures such as Robin Kleinschmidt. Sport teams compete in the Greater Brisbane Conference. Redeemer sports Cricket, Touch, Basketball, Volleyball, Netball, AFL, Soccer, and Indoor Cricket, among other sports and physical activity opportunities.

History
The school was founded in 1980 by L. Robin Kleinschmidt, an Australian Lutheran educationalist. He served as headmaster of St Peters Lutheran College, Brisbane and was responsible in part for encouraging the theatrical talents of a young Sigrid Thornton.

Kleinschmidt served as headmaster of Redeemer College from foundation to 2001 and was responsible for the construction of most of the modern campus. His influence on the school can still be seen, particularly in the field of Debating, where the Inter-House Debating Trophy is known as the Robin Kleinschmidt Trophy. The school's music centre, which was erected in 1999, was renamed the Robin Kleinschmidt centre.

Controversies
Helen Darville made claims in interviews regarding her school experiences that she had been looked down upon for being at the school on a scholarship and also that she had befriended a Croatian girl who had been bullied by other students. The College refuted both claims, demonstrating that it had never had a scholarship program (although limited bursaries existed and continue to exist for already-enrolled students in need) and that there were no students of Croatian ethnicity enrolled at the time of Darville's enrolment. Then-headmaster, L. Robin Kleinschmidt, viewed these claims with contempt many years after the fact, as detailed in his memoirs.

Warren Schneider, a former teacher at the school, was charged, prosecuted, and later convicted of paedophilia. It was proven that events took place on a school camp in 2002, with Schneider providing alcohol to female students and playing sexually charged games of truth or dare with them. Schneider was jailed for 15 months, suspended after 5 months. In a second case in October 2007, Schneider pleaded guilty to three counts of rape and many cases of indecent dealings with students of both Redeemer College and another school at which he had previously taught. The school released a statement advising, "The college sincerely regrets that these events occurred," and stated in a newsletter, "It's been a difficult week for our community in the wake of the conviction of former teacher Warren Schneider." However, the school has not to date issued an apology to the victims of the abuse.

Notable alumni

 * Zac Alexanderprofessional squash player and 2018 Commonwealth Games gold medallist
 * Clay Cameronformer Australian Rules Footballer for the Gold Coast Football Club
 * Helen DarvilleAustralian author and columnist
 * Hon. Mick de BrenniState Member for Springwood, Minister for Housing and Public Works
 * Timothy DelportSir John Monash Scholar 2017
 * David Giffinformer Wallabies vice-captain
 * Matthew KeithAustralian Farmer of the Year 2016
 * Claire SmallQantas 2015 Australian Woman of the Year in the UK
 * Lee Spurrformer Australian Rules footballer for the Fremantle Football Club
 * Andrew TrotterRhodes Scholar

title: Redeemer Lutheran College


text: Category:1814 books

title: Category:1814 books


text: Category:Netherlands Marine Corps

title: Category:Netherlands Marine Corps


text:
Cynghanedd

In Welsh-language poetry, cynghanedd (, literally "harmony") is the basic concept of sound-arrangement within one line, using stress, alliteration and rhyme. The various forms of cynghanedd show up in the definitions of all formal Welsh verse forms, such as the awdl and cerdd dafod. Though of ancient origin, cynghanedd and variations of it are still used today by many Welsh-language poets. A number of poets have experimented with using cynghanedd in English-language verse, for instance Gerard Manley Hopkins. Some of Dylan Thomas's work is also influenced by cynghanedd.

Forms of cynghanedd
Note that ⟨dd⟩, ⟨ll⟩ and ⟨ch⟩ are digraphs in the Welsh alphabet, each representing a single consonant /ð/, /ɬ/ and /χ/ respectively.

Cynghanedd groes ("cross-harmony")
All consonants surrounding the main stressed vowel before the caesura must be repeated after it in the same order. However, the final consonants of the final words of each half of the line must be different, as must the main stressed vowel of each half. For example, from the poem Cywydd y Cedor, by the fifteenth-century poet Gwerful Mechain:

"clawdd i ddal / cal ddwy ddwylaw"

Here we see the pattern {C L Dd Dd [stress] L} present on both sides of the caesura. The main stressed vowels are ⟨a⟩ (a short monophthong) and ⟨wy⟩ (the diphthong /uj/).

In cynghanedd groes there are generally no consonants in the second half of the line which are not part of the consonantal echoing (there are exceptions, especially in the case of $⟨n⟩$ at the beginning of the half and, as mentioned above, a line-final consonant). The vowels other than those under the main stresses may be of any kind.

Cynghanedd draws (partial "cross-harmony")
Exactly as in cynghanedd groes, except that there are consonants at the beginning of the second half of the line which are not present in the series of 'echoed' consonants. Cynghanedd draws appears in this line from R. Williams Parry:

"Rhowch wedd wen / dan orchudd iâ ["place a white face under a veil of ice"]"

Here the consonant sequence {Rh Ch Dd [stress]} is repeated with different stressed vowels (short ⟨e⟩ and long ⟨â⟩). It will be noticed that the ⟨n⟩ at the end of the first half plays no part in the cynghanedd: the line-final word iâ instead ends in a vowel; if this word also ended in an ⟨n⟩, there would be generic rhyme between the two words, which is not permitted in cynghanedd.

Note that the {D N} of the second half of the line is also not part of the cynghanedd: this is the difference between cynghanedd groes and cynghanedd draws. There may be any number of unanswered consonants in this part of the line, as long as the initial sequence of consonants and accent is repeated; compare an extreme possibility in a line of Dafydd ap Gwilym's The Girls of Llanbadarn, where only one syllable is repeated:

"Pla / ar holl ferched y plwyf! ["A plague on all the girls of the parish!"]"

(Words beginning with ⟨h⟩ are treated as beginning with a vowel.)

Cynghanedd sain ("sound-harmony")
The cynghanedd sain is characterised by internal rhyme. If the line is divided into three sections by its two caesuras, the first and second sections rhyme, and the third section repeats the consonantal patterns of the second. For example:

"pant yw hwy / na llwy / na llaw"

Cynghanedd lusg ("drag-harmony")
The final syllable before the caesura in the first half of the line makes full rhyme with the penultimate syllable of the line-final polysyllabic word (i.e. the main stressed syllable of the second half). For example:

"duw er ei radd / a'i addef,"

Other details
A comprehensive account of cynghanedd would run to many thousands of words: many sub-types and subtleties must be accounted for by a full description of the system.

Internal rhyme in Breton
A form of cynghanedd lusg known as "internal rhyme" (Breton : klotennoù diabarzh, enklotennoù or kenganez) was frequently used in Middle Breton, between the XIIth and XVIIth centuries, in poetry, like in Pemzec Leuenez Maria or in the sonnet from Français Moeam, and theatre like in lots of misterioù, religious pieces, such as Buhez Sante Barba'. Two of the oldest works with internal rhymes are the Ivonet Omnes verses, which seem to be an old Breton lay and Dialog etre Arzuz Roe d'an bretounet ha Guiclaff, a prophetic text in dialogues.

This is an extract of An Dialog etre Arzur Roe d'an Bretounet ha Guynglaff (48-49 verses) : "An tut a ilis diguyset An douar fallaff a roy guellaff [et]"

Though it isn't as used as cynghanedd in Modern Welsh, some authors have published some work using this internal rhyme in poetry (Alan Botrel) or in the form of a lay like Lae Izold by Paskal Tabuteau.

title: Cynghanedd


text:
Brighten the Corners

Brighten the Corners is the fourth studio album by American indie rock band Pavement, released on February 11, 1997, by Matador Records. The album received very positive reviews from critics.

Background
Brighten the Corners was recorded at Mitch Easter's Drive-In Studio in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. According to singer and guitarist Stephen Malkmus, it was either Matador Records or Mary Timony from Helium who suggested that the band should record the album there.

Recording
Although Brighten the Corners was mostly produced by Pavement and Bryce Goggin, Easter worked with the band for roughly a week when Goggin left the studio.

The recording sessions involved a lot of editing, and the band would often record several versions of the same song before deciding on a final take. The vocals were then recorded in New York separately.

The album title was in reference to "Brighten The Corner Where You Are", a gospel hymn written by Homer Rodeheaver in the early 1900s.

Release
Brighten the Corners was released on February 11, 1997, by Matador Records. In 2008, Matador released Brighten the Corners: Nicene Creedence Edition, a compilation containing Brighten the Corners in its entirety, as well as B-sides and other rarities from the same era.

Critical reception
Brighten the Corners received very positive reviews from critics and was ranked No. 10 in The Village Voice's 1997 Pazz & Jop critics' poll. In the poll's accompanying essay, Robert Christgau referred to the album as one of his "favorite albums of the year, easy", alongside those by Yo La Tengo, Sleater-Kinney, and Arto Lindsay.

Pavement

 * Stephen Malkmus – lead vocals, guitar
 * Bob Nastanovich – percussion, backing vocals
 * Scott Kannberg – lead vocals (tracks 4, 10), backing vocals, guitar
 * Steve West – drums, percussion
 * Mark Ibold – bass guitar

Technical

 * Mitch Easter – engineer, mixing
 * Bryce Goggin – engineer, mixing

title: Brighten the Corners


text:
Talk:Cynghanedd

Inaccuracies
I'm not an expert on the cynghanedd, so I don't feel qualified to edit the page, but I think you'll find that the difference between Croes and Traws is not as you say. The important thing in cynghanedd is that it's the consonants around the final accented syllable of both halves of the line that are important. Therefore if both halves end in a monosyllable, the final consonants will not agree ("Ddoe'n fud a heddiw'n fedd" - dd:n:f:(d) - dd:n:f:(dd)). Indeed, it is a "gwall" for them to do so.

If both halves end in a polysyllable, all the consonants in the first half that precede the final unstressed syllable must be repeated in the second half ("Adeiladwyd gan dlodi" - d:l:d:(d) - d:l:d).

If the last word in the first half is monosyllabic, and the last word in the second half is polysyllabic, then the consonants preceding the final stressed syllable in the first half must be repeated in the second immediately preceding the final unstressed syllable in the second half ("Uchel gaer uwch y weilgi" - ch:l:g:(r) - ch:l:g).

It is a "gwall" (whatever that translates to - sorry) to end the first half with a polysyllable and the second with a monosyllable, if I remember correctly.

So, to cut to the chase, both your examples are of cynghanedd groes. Cynghannedd traws allows for the insertion of additional consonants into the line before the repetition of consonants in the second half ("Gwylio hen mewn gwely haf" - (g:l:h - (m:n):g:l:h). It has nothing to do with consonants that follow the final stressed syllable as the page implies.
 * No, what you describe is the difference between cynghanedd gytbwys and cynghanedd anghytbwys, which can be both croes and traws (and the difference between the two types is correctly described). It is true that the examples are flawed, though; I'll try and find a better one Edricson 20:06, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I actually wrote that part (together with most of the rest of the article) because there weren't any examples on Wikipedia and I thought it was sad. I'm only a dysgwr, so I'm not surprised I messed up, though. I'd like to see this page improved by someone who actually knew a lot of stuff about the subject. :) Marnanel 14:52, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the constructive discussion. I'm sure you're correct about my corrections being mistaken.  I'm definitely no expert: just didn't think the examples given were quite correct either.  And thanks to marnanel for at least making an entry.  Perhaps someone should ask Mei Mac or one of that crowd to contribute an article?  Or the Kymro Kanol (http://kymrokanol.blogspot.com/) :)  Sorry, forgot my login. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.179.113.125 (talk) 19:08, 26 March 2007 (UTC).

OK, there's a lot of traditional terminology involved, and sometimes things appear more complex than they really are. There are essentially three classes of cynhanedd lines 1. "consonantal" (to translate Morris-Jones' Welsh term) which includes _croes_ and _draws_, 2. _sain_ and 3. _llusg_.

In type (1) the line is divided into two section separated by a pause (_gorffwysfa_ 'resting place'). The syllable before the pause (confusingly often referred to as the _gorffwysfa_ as well) has to be either a fully stressed monosyllable or the final syllable of a stressed polysyllable. These would both have been stressed in Old Welsh, and even after the shift of the main stress accent on to the penult in polysylls, it still retains a distinct pitch accent, and this mostly serves as the reference point in cynghanedd. The same restrictions apply to the final syllable, the _prifodl_ (lit. 'main rhyme'). This will normally rhyme with another line in the verse. The gorffwyfa syllable and the prifodl must NOT rhyme. Nb. in general in Welsh verse only final syllables rhyme, and stressed and unstressed syllables rhyme, so in Welsh "yellow" would rhyme with "tow" and with "sparrow" for instance, whereas a rhyme like "yellow" ~ "mellow" would be rather over-egging the pudding to Welsh ears, and only used for special effect. Oh, yes, cynghanedd lines of all types have to have an exact number of syllables, stressed and unstressed counting equally. The number depends on the verse type being used, seven is the most common, and most cynghanedd example lines are of seven sylls.

OK, in all types of consonantal cynghanedd there is repeated serial alliteration of consonants (with a few special get-out rules, allowances for euphony etc which I don't intend to go into here). All consonants coming before the final vowel in the first part of the line, must be answered in sequence immediately before the vowel of the final syllable.

There are basically three possibilities. (a) There are one or more consonants left over in the middle of the line, this is _cynghanedd draws_. (b) The two alliteration chains join end to end and use up all the consonants in the line -- _cyng. groes_. (c) The two chains actually overlap, so some consonants count twice (this is really showing off!) -- _cyng. groes o gysyllt_.

As if this wasn't enough, there is a further subdivision cutting across the above, according to whether the two parts of the line end in stressed monosyllables (_dyrchafedig_) or the final syllable of a penult stressed polysyll (_disgynedig_). Of the four theoretical possibilities only three are in fact used. (i) Both halves end in a stressed monosyll. (_cytbwys acennog_ 'balanced accented'); (ii) both halves end in polysylls with penult stress (_cytbwys ddiacen_ 'balanced unaccented'); and (iii) the first half ends in an accented syllable, the second not (_anghytbwys ddisgynedig_ 'unbalanced descending'). In the 'balanced' types, the final vowel acts as the terminus for each alliteration chain, but in the 'unbalanced' variety, the stressed vowels in each half are aligned, but any consonant(s) immediately following the stressed vowel of the first half must be answered between the stressed and the final vowel of final polysyll.

Simple yes? And the Welsh can compose this stuff by ear, off the top of their heads as part of complex verse forms on the spur of the moment. Totally mind-boggeling :-) Oh, I forgot to mention that the exceptional polysylls that have final stress (usually because two syllables have collapsed into one) fit into the above patterns like a phrase ending in a stressed monosyllable.

Some e.g.s from _Cerdd dafod_ the Bible of cynghanedd :

---

Type 1 (a) (i) Gan Dduw | mae di(gon i ddyn [g-n-dd (m-d) g-n-dd]

Type 1 (a) (ii) Dy wyneb | fal (od unnos [d-n (b-f-l) d-n]

Type 1 (a) (iii) Mae'r haf | wedi (marw hefyd [m-rhVf (d) m-rhVf]

--

Type 1 (b) (i) Y llwybrau gynt | lle bu'r gan [ll-b-r-g : ll-b-r-g]

Type 1 (b) (ii) Wedi trawster | daw tristwch [d-t-r-s-t : d-t-r-s-t]

Type 1 (b) (iii) Eryr gwyllt | ar war gelltydd [r-r-gVllt : r-r-gVllt]

--

Type 1 (c) (i) Gwragedd a (gwyr | i gudd gant [g-r-g-dd-G-r-g-dd-g]

Type 1 (c) (ii) Ardreth e(rydr | a thiroedd [r-d-r-th-R-d-r-th-r]

Type 1 (c) (iii) Dêl im (dal | am y dolur [d-l-m-DVL-m-dVl]

---

That will do for now, if you want the rest give some feedback :-)  Mongvras (talk) 02:45, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

For the 99.999% of us who do not speak Welsh
It would be nice to have a phonetic transliteration of the word. Haiduc 00:12, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, for what good it will do you, the word means "harmony", but in respect of poetry, it only means that in a figurative sense, I guess. However, the main point is that since English poetry has no equivalent, there is no equivalent English word. Or as Waldo (I think) said:

"... not foul nor fish / An englyn writ in English"

(Forgot my login. Sorry.  But I'm the one who started this discussion)

External links modified
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title: Talk:Cynghanedd


text: Category:German Navy

title: Category:German Navy


text:
Transcopic Records

Transcopic was a British record label created in 1998 by Blur guitarist Graham Coxon for his solo releases, as well as those of other left field artists. Along with Coxon's music, the label issued records by acts such as Ooberman, The Buff Medways, You Am I, and Billy Childish. It was co-owned by Jamie Davis, who subsequently co-founded Ark Recordings and founded The Jaded Hearts Club.

Coxon issued his first five solo albums and their associated singles on the label between 1998 and 2005. After the closure of Transcopic, Coxon released his sixth album, Love Travels at Illegal Speeds (2006), via Parlophone.

Selected releases

 * Assembly Line People Program - Noise Vision 80 (TRAN001)
 * Ooberman - "Sugar Bum" (TRAN002)
 * Control Freaks - Agro (TRAN003)
 * Assembly Line People Program - Critical Gate (TRAN004)
 * Graham Coxon - The Sky is Too High (TRANCD005/TRANLP005)
 * Assembly Line People Program - Subdivision of Being (TRANCD006/TRANLP006)
 * Bunsen Honeydew - Didn't You Used To Be Invisible? (TRAN007)
 * Graham Coxon - The Golden D (TRANCD0)
 * Mower - Na (TRAN008)
 * Mower - Drinking For Britain (TRANCD009/TRAN009)
 * Graham Coxon - Crow Sit On Blood Tree (TRANCD010/TRANLP010)
 * Graham Coxon - Thank God For The Rain/You Never Will Be (TRANCD011/TRAN011)
 * The Buff Medways - A Strange Kind of Happyness (TRAN012)
 * Mower - Mower (TRANCD013/TRANLP013)
 * Mower - Rest in Peace (TRAN014)
 * The Buff Medways - Troubled Mind / Leave My Kitten Alone (TRAN015)
 * The Buff Medways - Steady The Buffs (TRAN016/TRANLP016)
 * The Buff Medways - Strood Lights / You Make Me Die (TRAN017)
 * Graham Coxon - The Kiss of Morning (TRANCD018/TRANLP018)
 * Louis Vause - Pianophernalia (TRANCD019)
 * Graham Coxon - Escape Song / Mountain of Regret (TRANCD020)
 * You Am I - No After You Sir...: An Introduction to You Am I (TRANCD021)
 * Mower - After Dark (TRANCD022/TRAN022)
 * Mower - The Morning After (TRANCD023/TRAN023)
 * Mower - People Are Cruel (TRANCD023/TRANLP023)
 * The Buff Medways - Just 15 (TRAN025)
 * The Buff Medways - 1914 (TRANCD026/TRANLP026)
 * Neon - A Man (TRANCD027)
 * Neon - Hit Me Again (TRANCD028)

title: Transcopic Records


text: Category:1813 books

title: Category:1813 books


text: Category:1812 books

title: Category:1812 books


text:
Terror Twilight

Terror Twilight is the fifth and final studio album by the American indie rock band Pavement. It was released on June 8, 1999, on Matador Records in the US and Domino Recording Company in the UK.

Terror Twilight was produced by Nigel Godrich, who hoped to create a "straighter" album and bring Pavement to a wider audience. He and the band disagreed over some choices, and the songwriter, Stephen Malkmus, later expressed dissatisfaction with the album. It received positive reviews. After finishing the tour for the album, Pavement disbanded. In 2022, Matador released an expanded reissue, Terror Twilight: Farewell Horizontal.

Background
Terror Twilight was produced by the British producer Nigel Godrich, who had gained fame for his work with Radiohead, Beck and REM. Godrich, a Pavement fan, accepted the job without having met the band or seen them perform. Hoping to help them find a bigger audience, he wanted to make an album that "stood up straighter" and would "reach people who were turned off by the beautiful sloppiness of other Pavement records". According to the songwriter, Stephen Malkmus, Godrich asked no fee, asking only for royalties. However, Malkmus said: "We paid for the studio time, of course, which started to get expensive. Because [Godrich] had his own, uh, standards."

Recording
The group began work in Sonic Youth's studio in lower Manhattan, New York. Godrich found the studio limiting, so the group moved to RPM Studios near Washington Square Park, where Malkmus estimated three quarters of the album were recorded. Dominic Murcott of High Llamas played drums for two tracks when Steve West could not play in time. Malkmus also played drums on one track. Overdubbing and editing took place in London at RAK Studios and Godrich's studio Shebang. The Radiohead guitarist Jonny Greenwood added harmonica on "Platform Blues" and "Billie". Godrich mixed the album at Mayfair Studios.

According to the percussionist, Bob Nastanovich, Godrich struggled with the band's casual approach, and called for more takes than they were used to. Though Nastanovich said Godrich took on a "substantial challenge" and "did a good job", he felt he only connected with Malkmus and disregarded the other band members. Nastanovich realized after several days that Godrich did not know his name. The band was also less familiar with the new material, as it was driven entirely by Malkmus. The guitarist Scott Kannberg was unhappy that Malkmus was not interested in working on songs Kannberg had written, and said Terror Twilight was the hardest Pavement record to make.

Deciding the track list created conflict, Godrich wanted to begin the record with "Platform Blues" and end with "Spit on a Stranger". He felt it should open with a "longer, more challenging song to set the tempo", similar to the 1997 Radiohead album OK Computer. However, the band wanted to open with an "easier" song. Malkmus recalled, "Nigel was like, 'I'm done with this. This is the wrong move. We made a stoner album and you're going halfway.' He’s right probably."

Music and lyrics
Many of the tracks were previewed at a pair of solo Malkmus shows in California on August 12–13, 1998. These included "Ann Don't Cry", "Carrot Rope", "Spit On A Stranger", "Platform Blues", "You Are The Light", "Folk Jam", and two others that remain unreleased ("Civilized Satanist," which used a Moby Grape sample, and "Dot Days").

At these shows, Malkmus played electric guitar and sang along with home demo recordings of the songs. The style of the recordings was similar to those found on the compilation At Home With the Groovebox ("Robyn Turns 26" and "Watch Out!"), the B-sides of the "Spit on a Stranger" single ("Rooftop Gambler" and "The Porpoise And The Hand Grenade"), and the demo version of "Major Leagues" found on the Major Leagues EP.

"The Hexx" was a quieter, slowed-down version of a discordant jam that was played extensively on the Brighten The Corners tour. Pavement had recorded a faster, louder version during the Brighten The Corners sessions—in fact, at one point "The Hexx" was to have been the opening track on that album. This recording was edited, retitled "...And Then" and issued as the vinyl B-side to "Spit on a Stranger". The original, full-length recording can be found on Brighten The Corners: Nicene Creedence Edition. The single edit also appears among eight bonus tracks on the vinyl incarnation of the Creedence edition.

The original cover art for Terror Twilight lists the final track, "Carrot Rope," as "...And Carrot Rope." This alternate song title was revived for the 2010 Record Store Day version of Quarantine the Past, even though the song was the fifth track on side one.

Initial UK copies of the album came with a bonus CD-ROM which contained the whole album with a brief track-by-track commentary; film of Stephen Malkmus writing this – and calling for the help of his fellow band members in doing so – can be seen on the Slow Century DVD. The disc also contained the videos for "Stereo" and "Shady Lane" from their previous album Brighten the Corners and a home movie segment containing some footage also seen in the Slow Century DVD.

Nastanovich came up with the title, and said it described the period between dusk and sunset when most traffic accidents occur, as only half of drivers switch on their headlights. His original suggestion was Farewell Horizontal, but he dismissed this as "there was no way I was going to be on the Farewell Horizontal tour for the next year".

Legacy
Terror Twilight was Pavement's final album before their breakup. Godrich later said he could "sense it was the end" during the recording, and that "people had differences of opinion". Fans perceived the lines "The damage is done / I am not having fun any more" from "Ann Don't Cry" as a veiled reference to the band's end.

During the six-month world tour for Terror Twilight, relationships within the group frayed, especially between Malkmus and the other members. After their show at the 1999 Coachella Festival, Malkmus told his bandmates he did not want to continue. During the final concert of the tour, at Brixton Academy in London on November 20, 1999, Malkmus had a pair of handcuffs attached to his microphone stand and told the audience: "These symbolize what it's like being in a band all these years." About two weeks later, a spokesperson for their record label told NME that Pavement had "retired for the foreseeable future".

In 2017, Malkmus described Terror Twilight as "a real classic-rock overproduced $100,000 record. With that much money you should be able to make something good. We made some things that weren't as good as they could've been." In response to the comments, Godrich tweeted: "I literally slept on a friend's floor in NYC to be able to make that album." In 2020, Godrich said that he loved the album and had enjoyed making it. He said: "Maybe there were some internal politics, as there are in any band, but I made a friend forever in Stephen ... The writing may have been on the wall even before I got there, but I don't think I had any part of that."

On April 8, 2022, Pavement released a special edition reissue, Terror Twilight: Farewell Horizontal, including 28 previously unreleased tracks. The vinyl set uses the track listing that Godrich suggested.

Personnel
Pavement Additional musicians Technical
 * Stephen Malkmus – vocals, guitar
 * Bob Nastanovich – percussion, keyboards
 * Scott Kannberg – vocals, guitar
 * Steve West – drums, percussion
 * Mark Ibold – bass, vocals
 * Dominic Murcott – drums on "Major Leagues" and "Carrot Rope"
 * Jonny Greenwood – Harmonica on "Platform Blues" and "Billie"
 * Nigel Godrich – production, mixing

title: Terror Twilight


text: Category:1798 books

title: Category:1798 books


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title: Category:1800 books