text:
Talk:Varela Project

Hello
Hello and thank you for this article. Please keep in mind the United Nations has overwhelmingly voted 130 nations and more to 2 or 3 against the illegal blockade of Cuba by the United States. It has done so several times. The International Community does not support such acts of destabilization of sovereign nations by foreign interests. I find it ironic at best that the same persons who work against Cuba, such as this "project" and its sponsors, find the face to continue doing so in light of the Internationnal Community's resolutions at the United Nations. The illegal blockade of Cuba is inhumane and causes countless deaths and injuries to Cubans. The illegal blockade of Cuba is also a political tool of imperialism and has obviously little if anything to do with human rights. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.104.28.187 (talk) 11:31, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Oswaldo Payá Sardiñas, If Oswaldo Payá Sardiñas and Oswaldo Payá are the same person, then this sentence should be fixed. Oswaldo Payá, Regarding the name, both are used in newspaper and internet articles. Not sure how he refers to himself. Fred Bauder 13:31, Aug 14, 2004 (UTC)
 * From Family name: "nowadays in Spain and in some countries of Hispanic culture (former Spanish colonies, e.g. México, Colombia, Peru, Venezuela), most people have two surnames, although in some situations only the first is used." --Boivie 22:13, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

From everything I've read about him and by him, it's Oswaldo Payá Sardiñas. However in Spanish it's perfectly acceptable to refer to someone by just their first surname, in this case Oswaldo Payá. SantoDomingo71 23:26, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

POV presentation
I broke the article into three parts, a neutral opening paragraph, the Cuban POV and the external (largely US State Department) POV. I think this is a good idea as it makes it easier for the reader of the article to distinguish what is POV and what is neutral. BruceHallman 19:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

POV tag
The POV tag was recently added, with 'see talk' but no associated 'talk' was posted. BruceHallman 20:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

75 political prisoners
The State Department press release identifies 75 political prisoners. Are the names of these people made public anywhere? BruceHallman 20:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

 * If the State Department account of 75 political prisoners is a "verifiable account", then could you please provide a list of the names of these seventy-five people per WP:V. BruceHallman 21:13, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

It appears on the WWW that there are 77 prisoners of conscience, but that the number related to the Varela Project is much less. What is correct? BruceHallman 22:06, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Which is correct, the Varela Project mentions both 25 political prisoners and 75 political prisioners? BruceHallman 22:06, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Also, the opening section says "... convicted of "acts against the independence or the territorial integrity of the State." but later in the article it is mentioned " on a variety of charges"", which is correct? BruceHallman 22:06, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

 * This question still needs to be addressed. BruceHallman 23:21, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Another source -- FRCP11 22:14, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

 * That list has 81 people, and says nothing of them being Varela Project prisioners. Is it 81, 77, 75 or 25?  And which people exactly are Varela Project prisoners?  BruceHallman 23:21, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

http://www.adcuba.org/Reportes/CCDHRN/CCDHRN_Informe_II_Semestre_2006_7.pdf includes only the ones still in prison. The footnotes give the affiliation - the Christian Liberation Movement ones are "Varela project", it's just sloppy popular conflation of the terms (http://www.mclpaya.org/). You can also look at the dates and match them to what ever series of arrests you're counting. Sorry I don't have them to hand in translation, but I imagine you read spanish since this is an area of particular interest to you.

There have been these curiously precise numbers reported of prisoners of conscious held by the Cuban government ever since I can remember. The precision almost does make them seem made up, but apparently someone is actually keeping the lists up-to-date. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch seem to find them generally credible and frequently cite the statistics. (Although they count in slightly different sorts of people, so they're almost always 3-5 off from each other.)Lisamh

POV tag
The article has been sanitized -- verifiable accounts of what actually happened have been POV-forked into a subsection, and given equal weight with demonstrably false Cuban propaganda. Reports from human rights organizations such as IAHCR have been falsely characterized as coming from the US government. The State Department report is neutral, and not a single fact from it is disputed, and should be restored to the main text. -- FRCP11 20:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

 * The first POV forking occured here. BruceHallman 21:47, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

 * With due respect, the U.S. State Deparment is very much partisan and POV and should not be represented otherwise. BruceHallman 20:55, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

 * The only partisan here is you, Bruce. What you're doing is positively evil.  -- FRCP11 20:58, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I am editing in good faith, and calling me evil is hardly constructive. Regardless, if we stick to WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:NOR we should be able to collaborate on the editing of this article.  BruceHallman 21:10, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I take it that per your editorial judgement that the U.S. State Department is not partisan. How does this comport with the US policy that "...U.S. can help hasten and ease a democratic transition in Cuba"?    It seems that having an official policy to 'hasten' a 'transition' is patently partisan.  BruceHallman 21:10, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Cuba is undemocratic, yes. Do you dispute that?  (Of course you do, because you buy Cuban propaganda lock stock and barrel, never mind the murders they commit.  For shame.)  You have yet to identify a single inaccurate statement quoted from the State Department report. -- FRCP11 21:14, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Once upon a time I assumed good faith with you, Bruce, but you persist in bad-faith edits that propagate propaganda and sanitize the truth. When I see you make a single edit that acknowledges that Cuba is lying about something, I'll believe that you're editing in good faith.  Hasn't happened yet.  -- FRCP11 21:15, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I can't answer your question without knowing which defintion of 'undemocratic' you are using. Democracy (disambiguation)  There are many types of democracy.  BruceHallman 21:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I did not say that the U.S. State Department does not meet WP:V. I am only saying that they base their opinions on one POV and are not neutral as required by WP:NPOV.  The burden of proof is on you to justify your POV dispute tag, and you have not done so yet.  BruceHallman 21:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I don't understand your point about 'bad-faith' and 'Cuba is lying', which involves a leap of logic. Again, if we stick to WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:NOR we should be able to collaborate, do you agree?  BruceHallman 21:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

 * There are many types of democracy, and Cuba has none of them. Bruce, you have yet to collaborate in good faith.  I've previously made the mistake of trying to do so with you, and it was a complete waste of my time.  The article is POV because you have taken neutral, factually-correct statements, and call any accurate representation of Cuba--including left-wing BBC reports--POV.  I'm not going to play the game of finding dozens of additional sources to verify the already verified and patently obvious, just so you can play the No true Scotsman fallacy and move the bar and argue that the additional sources also aren't NPOV.  You personify precisely what's wrong with Wikipedia--it rewards the persistent ideologue who has time to revert accurate articles into inaccurate ones.  -- FRCP11 21:33, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Pardon me, it appears quite obvious that there are more than one POV's about this article, and it also is quite obvious that your belief that your POV is the factually-correct one, and the other POV's are the inaccurate ones is not a neutral type of editing. Please re-read Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth.  BruceHallman 21:47, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

rejected by the govenrment.
The logic of the phrase 'rejected by the government' is bad. Article #88(h) of the Cuban Constitution allows for legislative proposals backed by at least 10,000 citizens to be submitted directly to the National Assembly. The government, per Article #75(b) of the Constitution has every right to not accept any and all such proposals. BruceHallman 23:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Lacking Content
This article seems to focus on everything but what the Varela Project is; it focuses entirely on the controversy around the attempt to get signatures but never informs the reader what the proposal was for. For a NPOV, this might be a good start. Windupcanary

 * See the recent re-write which is a sincere attempt to provide 'content', meeting WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. BruceHallman 17:19, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

More POV problems
Hallman has placed the Communist-propaganda line at the front of the article, with refutation of the blatantly untrue claims in there segregated into other sections, but feels the need to "balance" those other sections with additional Castro-propaganda lines. There's other slants in there: putting things like the UNHCR and IAHRC reports under "US State Department" to make it seem that these independent organizations have an anti-Cuba bias as opposed to an anti-totalitarian bias. This article needs dramatic cleanup because Hallman has made a complete hash of it in his efforts to sanitize criticism of his beloved dictator Castro. -- FRCP11 04:12, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Turning this into an attack on me is not helpful. My goal is editing the article per WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:NPOV and your attempts to restate it otherwise does not change that. BruceHallman 13:27, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Your statement "...these independent organizations have an anti-Cuba bias as opposed to an anti-totalitarian bias..." unfortunately reveals that you view this article as a battlefront for the conflict, as opposed to an encyclopedia article. Any neutral content, away from your POV, appears to you as an attack from the enemy.  BruceHallman 13:27, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Sir, your accusations are projecting. It is you who has an agenda, as demonstrated by your most recent POV edit, where you, without excuse, deleted the verifiable true statement "summary trial."  (First, you moved the discussion of the summary trials around so that it was in a different section away from the cited source; then, several edits later, you dishonestly call it original research.)  You have yet to make a good-faith edit, and every single one of your edits has introduced more POV and less accuracy, and/or removing verifiable information that is both relevant and negative to a murderous regime that you, for some mysterious reason, feel the need to engage in an encyclopedia-wide campaign to disingenuously sanitize. -- FRCP11 14:02, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

 * For what it is worth, the assertion or implication that the "75 prisoners" are Varela Project related appears clearly false, which calls into question the credibility of that source. The "75 prisoners", (also called "77" and "81") are instead verifiable related to the March 2003 prosecutions known as tha "Cason affair".  And although this occured at the same time, and probably overlapped somewhat with prosecutions of Varela Project participants, the total Varela Project participants was only 'a few dozen' per Amnesty International.  To maintain that all 75 are related to the Varela Project seems like disinformation.  BruceHallman 15:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Please provide credible WP:V citation(s) of 'summary trial', and obviously the word 'summary' is a judgemental term.  Accepting payments from foreign agents for political purposes is illegal in many countries, including the United States.  For some reason you appear outraged that this is a crime in Cuba?  I think the fact that you are not similarly outraged that it is also a crime in the United States reveals much about your point of view bias.  Prosecutions for that crime does not seem verifiably a 'summary trial', and there is documentation of evidence produced at trial of that crime in the public record.  Because the US State Department was party to that crime, their credibility needs to be carefully scrutinized.  BruceHallman 15:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

 * This article is not about a 'murderous regime' it is about the Varela Project. I object and deny your accusation that I am disingenuous and lack good faith.  Your repeated accusations amount to personal attack and I ask that you stop doing this.  BruceHallman 15:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I am criticizing your bad-faith edits, not you. Your edits consistently violate WP:NPOV, and you hold material accurately criticizing Cuba to a standard you don't hold Cuban propaganda. A one-day trial where one is deprived an attorney or knowledge of the charges against them, where the judge answers to the prosecuting authority, is a summary trial by any definition. Hallman is asking me to repeat research I've already done. I refuse to do further research for this article until Hallman is banned from Wikipedia, because experience has taught me that Hallman will simply delete any research I do in a multi-step editing process of moving text around away from their cites and then deleting the moved text as supposed original research, as he has already done with this article.

Unfortunately, Wikipedia rewards persistence over good faith and accuracy, so I can't win this battle with Hallman and restore this article to NPOV and accuracy, and Wikipedia suffers as a result. -- FRCP11 15:52, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

 * FRCP11 wrote: "Hallman is asking me to repeat research I've already done." Rather, I asked you to provide citations per WP:V.  As you should know, original research is not allowed on Wikipedia.  BruceHallman 16:05, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

 * You falsely accuse me inconsistent standards. I hold the polarized pro-Cuban propaganda to the same standard as I hold the polarized anti-Castro propaganda.  BruceHallman 16:05, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Again, I provided verified material, and Hallman edited it out.

 * Hallman's claim of consistency is belied by (1) classifying neutral material from journalists and human rights organizations as "polarized anti-Castro propaganda" by virtue of the fact that they identify wrongs committed by Castro; and (2) moving all refutations of Castro propaganda out of the Castro propaganda section, while inserting Cuban responses to accurate assessments of Cuban actions that have been buried at the end of the article. One section gets prominence and an uninterrupted forum to spew lies, while the other section is buried, falsely characterized, and then repeatedly interrupted by more lies.  Moreover, accurate verifiable assessments of Cuban actions are separated from their cites, and then improperly deleted by falsely characterizing them as original research.

 * Hallman gets the last word. I'm taking this article off of my watchlist, and hope an editor with more time than me does something about the inaccuracy Hallman is perpetrating here on behalf of a criminal regime. -- FRCP11 16:34, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Unverifiable information
Someone posted vague claims that both the BBC and the State Department's statements on the Varela Project crackdown are based on incomplete evidence and a lack of understanding of the issue. The claim that the State Department has not spent "any real" time in Cuba is demonstrably false, since they have maintained an official Interests Section in Havana. Also, that's a pretty strong accusation to make against the BBC, one of the most respected news sources in the world. In the interest of fairness, I'll give it a week for someone to include *legitimate* supporting evidence, otherwise I'll have to remove these suspect and unsubstantiated claims. Cheers, SantoDomingo71 18:10, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

The article contains this statement, "The Varela Project is part of a strategy of subversion against Cuba that has been conceived, financed, and directed from abroad with the active participation of the U.S. Interests Section in Havana." If true, this would be front page news, but I see no reliable source for this assertion. One can say, of course, that no user asserted this, only the government of Cuba, but it remains unverifiable information from an unreliable source. Fred Bauder 17:51, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

 * (I hope I can ask this question without being attacked for 'bad faith' again.)  I am curious what criteria you suggest an editor should bring to evaluation of the credibility of sources in this difficult circumstance.  The Cuban foreign minister is obviously representing the political point of view of one side, and the US State Department, which has an official declared policy to 'hasten' 'transisiton' of the incumbant government in Cuba, obviously represents an opposite political point of view.  How should an editor evaluate the reliability of these two sources?  BruceHallman 18:17, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

 * The factual essense of the foreign minister's statement you quote, the contacts between James Cason and the dissidents, is confirmed by the Amnesty International article here . The 'strategy of subversion' is obviously a political evaluation, which is probably appropriate in a quote of a political statement made by a foreign minister.  I trust that the readers can understand the weight and context of this official Cuban statement.  Considering the overt official US policy of hastening a transition, (Helms Burton Act), calling the actions a 'subversion' and a 'strategy' is understandable from the Cuban perspective; which is required to be presented if the article has any hope of providing a balanced point of view.  BruceHallman 18:17, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

 * After some checking, I think the Cuban foreign minister's statement is actually verified by this citation from Amnesty Interational. Quote: "In 2002 James Cason was named head of the US Interests Section but was accused of undiplomatic behaviour by the Cuban government after he made a high-profile visit to a meeting of dissidents and spoke with international journalists gathered there. Cason has met with opposition members around the island and in the week before the mass arrests allowed a group of dissident journalists to use his official residence for a meeting, leading to sharp criticism from Fidel Castro.".  Also, the reporting of The Miami Herald on March 19, 2003; that James Cason made statements that he supported the dissidents, further serves to verify the quote from the Cuban foreign minister which you describe above as 'unverifiable information'. BruceHallman 19:25, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

 * The quote is further verified here; "According to the New York Times, an independent journalist group headed by Ricardo Gonzalez Sainz approached Cason for assistance in holding the workshop. The group had previously been blocked from holding reporting and editing classes by the Cuban government. " and "Former US Interests Section Chief Wayne Smith criticized "Cason's 'bull in a china shop' tactics as provoking the arrests," as reported by (the North American Congress on Latin America) NACLA". BruceHallman 20:01, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

You cite evidence of exploitation of anti-Castro and democratic activism by the United States. The quotation is "subversion against Cuba that has been conceived, financed, and directed from abroad". Fred Bauder 00:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

As to who to believe, the propaganda of neither nation is a reliable source. Fred Bauder 00:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

 * To examine and try to edit on Cuban related subjects (particularly something like the Valera project) is to enter a blizzard of propaganda. Problems usually arise when one group insists that their version is “the truth” and begins inserting them into articles. This causes a one-potato/two-potato game where each point of view is eventually represented. I’ve always advocated the option of solely relying on international sources on these matters  (Amnesty International, UN and on occasion EU). But certain parties, insisting that the voice of the US State department is neutral and thus should be presented as such, usually trump this - the discussion then dissolves into absurd accusations.

 * For what it’s worth the real story of the Valera project - which we obviously can’t say on the page – is that the internal opposition (such as the Christian Democratic Party of Cuba, and groups with legitimate reasons to oppose the Communist party and Castro) were hijacked by the US administration’s need to shore up Floridian votes before the 2004 Presidential election. Add to that the involvement of Oswaldo Payá, who is no Mahatma Gandi, rather he was paid by the US via the “Christian Liberation Movement” and was fresh from supporting the failed 2002 coup in Venezuela. Castro knew all this, and struck out hard resulting in the worst crackdown in Cuba since the 1960’s. Yet some of the victims left to rot were as opposed to US intervention as they were to Castro. Meanwhile Bush regains the confidence of Cuban-Americans just enough to win Florida, Paya is courted by the international community and Castro tightens his grip after years of reforms. In other words, the usual story of Jeux sans frontieres.--Zleitzen 10:32, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

YINever Revert
I am concerned by the latest edit summary provided by YINever, accompanied by a straight revert. Would that user please address issues on this talk page before future action.--Zleitzen 23:55, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I am referring to the summary revert of User:PatCheng, who likes to follow my edits to every article and does not participate in any real discussion or compromise. Even the opposing editor, Bruce Hallman, did not appear to take issue with my reorganization of the article and was working within it, and in fact was forced to make subsequent edits after that user's summary revert.  YINever 23:58, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

 * 1) Please state which edits by user BruceHallman are related to your dispute with Pat Cheng?
 * 2) Please define what you mean by "opposing editor"?
 * 3) Please address each change made by your revert in turn, below. --Zleitzen 00:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

 * What the hell are you talking about? Look through the revert history.  I reorganized the article, Bruce Hallman made some changes, PatCheng reverted to the version before mine, Bruce Hallman had to make changes again.  I'm not going to go on about this at length.  YINever 00:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

 * You removed a number of additional changes to the article without discussion, regardless of / and unrelated to your dispute with Pat Cheng. That is the issue here.--Zleitzen 00:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

 * If you have issues with those changes, please state them. YINever 00:40, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Please answer the above questions. Also, below is a list of issues I have with your unilateral and unexplained changes;

 * The addition of inaccurate material in the early section

 * The changes in wording

 * The removal of sentences

 * Changes in titles of sections

 * The removal of a number of sections

 * Change to a link description. --Zleitzen 01:01, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Please be specific. If you wish to dispute my edits, I am not going to find what is wrong with my changes for you.  YINever 01:07, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Below is a specific list of changes you have made to the article. Please explain your reasons.

 * Addition : government, such as the establishment of freedom of association, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, free elections, freedom of religion, freedom to start private businesses, and amnesty for political prisoners.
 * This specifically enumerates changes which would be effected by the iniative and thus informs the reader. YINever 01:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Change : enjoyed broad based support among…
 * I changed it to "strong", as I believe that "broad-based" can be a tendentious claim and "strong" support from two bodies, one concrete (US government), one amorphous (C-A community) is clear. YINever 01:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Removal : law; the dissidents deny the charges. However, some observers point out that many countries, including the United States, have similar laws prohibiting support by foreign agents in domestic politics. In March of 2003, the Cuban government enforced a crackdown on political dissent
 * This statement implies that the repression of the movement is due to the pretext that the government has given. Rather than reword it, I allowed the article to explain the issue in more detail below.  YINever 01:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Removal of Cuban response to the Varela Project Section

 * Removal of Removal of Statement of the Foreign Minister''

 * Removal of Statement regarding actions of James Cason

 * Removal of Statement of the Cuban Ministry of Justice

 * Removal of United States State Department statements

 * Change of section title
 * All of the above are meant to provide a much more cogent flow for the article. There is no need to separate out, or make POV forks for, very small sections and statements; nor should there be an overreliance on lengthy quotes.  YINever 01:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Change in link title = *Photograph--Zleitzen 01:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I changed it to the web site name and provided the exact same description! What is the problem?  YINever 01:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

 * To clarify, I accept Bruce Hallman's addition to my earlier version (this is YINever). --TJive 02:36, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Whilst I have no opinions on your changes made (at this juncture), it is imperative that in future you also address / justify major changes to an article on the talk page, rather than inconclusively via an edit summary. This helps consensus and enables other users to comment. This is particularly pertinent for an article where the content is in dispute. Thank you. --Zleitzen 11:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Initiative text
Where is the text of the Varela Project initiative that people signed? Where is the text of Cuban government initiative that people signed? Int21h (talk) 05:19, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Bias
BEFORE HATE: Apologies on removing the page; I was not aware this discussion function existed

This page is biased and uses sources that are not credible.

These sources are not credible because either:

(a) They are from a source that has a vested interest in seeing socialism fall, or

(b) They have information that can not be backed up. For example, the BBC news report states that the Cuban people felt pressured into voting for the amendment to the constitution. However, there is no verifiable source to back this up.

I recommend rewriting this article with a mix of credible sources, with some that respect the decision and others that condemn it.

Sincerely,

Marcus Khaos — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.211.129.35 (talk) 17:07, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * BBC News and others are considered reliable sources by Wikipedia policy, and don't need to give additional footnotes. Can you give examples of the sources you'd like to see included? Thanks for your contribution, -- Khazar2 (talk) 17:36, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

External links modified
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title: Talk:Varela Project


text:
Compton's Most Wanted

Compton's Most Wanted (C.M.W.) is an American gangsta rap group and part of the early West Coast hip hop scene. The leaders of the group are MC Eiht and Tha Chill.

Formation and early years
C.M.W. included rappers MC Eiht, Tha Chill, DJ Mike T, and producers DJ Slip and The Unknown DJ.

In the mid-1980s, founding members Tha Chill and MC Eiht were writing raps and recording demo tapes (also called "hood tapes") in their spare time while gang bangin' in their hood in Compton, CA. Tha Chill and MC Eiht chose to leave that street corner hustle scene in Compton and start making money in a legit but fun way when they saw their long time friend MC Ren of the multi platinum West Coast hip hop group N.W.A started to create a huge street buzz in the Los Angeles County area by releasing records along with rapper Eazy-E, Dr. Dre, Ice Cube, DJ Yella and Arabian Prince. In 1987, while in Compton, The Unknown DJ was given one of these "hood tapes" by a friend and became very interested in the diverse style and rhyme schemes of the "Compton's Most Wanted" rap group. The Unknown DJ then took the "hood tape" to DJ Slip in Gardena, a city just west of Compton, who at the time was the owner of Los Angeles County's largest DJ Rental business called "Music People - DJ4HIRE".

In 1988, Compton's Most Wanted, under the production leadership of Terry "DJ Slip" Allen, recorded their 1st ever professional songs called Rhymes To Funky. It was one of the many featured songs on the "Sound Control Mob - Under Investigation" Compton compilation album on "Kru Cut / City Fresh Records", along with artist like: "Vanilla C", "PG 13" and "MC Looney Tunes A.K.A. MC Loon E Toons". This label was owned by Compton, CA. Executive producers Alonzo Williams A.K.A. "Grandmaster Lonz' of the World Class Wreckin' Crew and Charles Turner.

In 1989, C.M.W. released their first single "This Is Compton" b/w "Give It Up" and "I Give Up Nothin'" (pt. 1) on The Unknown DJ Los Angeles-based record label Techno Hop Records. Techno Hop Records label was primarily an Electro genre label, but thru the futuristic mind of The Unknown DJ, he single-handedly launched the legendary west coast gangsta rap genre with songs by Ice-T "6 In The Mornin'" and King Tee "Ya Better Bring A Gun" featuring Mixmaster Spade. In the middle of recording this maxi single "This Is Compton" b/w "Give It Up" and "I Give Up Nothin'" managing misunderstanding started to occur between DJ Ant Capone who, along with his father "Old Man Conway", were acting managers for C.M.W. on the "Sound Control Mob - Under Investigation" (Compton Compilation album) and The Unknown DJ. Soon after DJ Ant Capone choose to leave the group.

In 1990, C.M.W. released their first album, It's a Compton Thang on Orpheus Records. It contained the hit single and video "One Time Gaffled Em Up". It's a Compton Thang was entirely produced by DJ Slip and The Unknown DJ and all song lyrics were written by MC Eiht. During the recording of this album Tha Chill was arrested for joy riding, but was released a few weeks later on time served and finished recording his remaining verses on the songs of the album. The album peaked at #132 in the U.S. charts. A year later in 1991, the group C.M.W. released their 2nd album, Straight Checkn 'Em, which featured popular hits songs like "Growin' Up In tha Hood", "Driveby Miss Daisy", "Compton's Lynchin'", and the first version of the "Def Wish" series.. "Growin' Up In The Hood" was also released on Warner Bros for the John Singleton block buster movie Boyz n the Hood starring Ice Cube, Cuba Gooding Jr., Laurence Fishburne, Nia Long and Morris Chestnut. During the recording of this album Tha Chill once again was arrested and this time sent to prison. This altercation had happened some months before the album was released and Tha Chill did not have the chance to participate on any of the other songs recordings, except for the original album version of "Growin' Up In the Hood". However, the album Straight Check'n Em was a bigger success than their previous album, peaking at #92 in the U.S. charts.

Again in 1992, the group released their third and most successful studio album, Music to Driveby. It featured the single "Hood Took Me Under" which the original song was produced by DJ Mike T and the remix single and video version by DJ Slip. This song charted at #5 in U.S. The "Hood Took Me Under" album version was also featured years later in 2004 on the popular PlayStation 2 video game Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas radio station, Radio Los Santos and in 2005 for Microsoft Windows and Xbox. MC Eiht also has a voice role on one of the game characters "Ryder". The album charted at #66 in the U.S. U.S. charts and is considered a classic by many people. C.M.W. are known especially for their slow, often melancholic raps, using samples from 1970s soul and funk records such as "Joy" and "Walk On By" by Isaac Hayes and "Love T.K.O." by Teddy Pendergrass. They are also known for using movie samples such as "Scareface" and "Deep Cover". Freestyle keyboardist, saxophone and harmonica player Willie Zimmerman, though not officially a member, is used extensively on songs Drive By Miss Daisy, Def Wish, Niggaz Strugglin, U's A Bitch, and Hood Rat.

On the Music To Driveby album song "Who's Fucking Who," produced by DJ Mike T and DJ Slip which took aimed at Bronx, NY old school rapper Timothy "Tim Dog" Blair. This whole altercation had begun while C.M.W. was on their album promotional tour for Straight Checkn' Em in 1990. While at a Sony music release party for all the labels under the Sony Corporation. Epic Records Compton's Most Wanted and Columbia Records Tim Dog were at the party. C.M.W. met Tim Dog and he explained his reasons for recording the "Fuck Compton" song saying it was a personal beef against N.W.A's Dr. Dre for an altercation with rapper/ television personality Dee Barnes from the rap video show Pump It Up. Tim Dog felt that since Dee Barnes was born in New York City he had to address the issue represent all New Yorkers in some type of way. He also stated that he didn't like jeri curls and he also hated R&B singer Michel'le's voice. But all that changed while taking pictures when Tim Dog asked members DJ Mike T and MC Eiht to spread a message to all Compton and West Coast hip hop rappers that "he was accepting all diss records and he wanted to start a U.T.F.O. style of dissing like the "Roxanne Roxanne" era. DJ Mike T got infuriated by the gimmick approach, knowing that the New York/ Los Angeles feud was about to boil over and Tim Dog rhyme style was getting outdated in New York by their next generation of rap. Once back on the West Coast DJ Mike T had to convince MC Eiht to write a song because MC Eiht already knowing thatTim Dog was already irrelevant with his one hit wonder. C.M.W. released their 2nd single/ video "Def Wish 2" was focused at well-known Compton rapper name DJ Quik after, MC Eiht fellow gang members convinced him that DJ Quik made a low key diss in a controversial statement on his "underground tape", prior to his signing with Profile Records. "Def Wish II" along with "Another Victim, Dead Men Tell No Lies, U's A Bitch, Hood Rat", were the last 5 songs ever produced again by The Unknown DJ for Compton's Most Wanted, before being relieved of his production contract from Epic Records for sub selling MC Eiht writers publishing, misdirecting funds and covering it up in a fraudulent business tax write-off. It was the last album C.M.W. released before their long hiatus.

Finally, after a break of eight years, C.M.W. released Represent in 2000 on the independent record label Half Ounce Records Inc. owned by MC Eiht, Boom Bam and deceased rapper Bird from Lil Hawk and Bird. The album featured the single "This Is Compton 2000" and "Some May Know", but did not achieve the success of their previous albums.

In 2006, C.M.W. released Music to Gang Bang on B Dub Records, which contained four singles, most notably the single titled "Music to Gang Bang", with original member MC Eiht and newest members "Big 2Da Boy and Diamond Rich". However the album was not as commercially successful as previous releases.

In 2008, Compton rapper The Game revealed in an interview that he was in talks with MC Eiht to revive the group; however, this has yet to materialize.

Solo careers
By serving over 2 years in prison Tha Chill had missed recording on two of C.M.W. biggest albums Straight Checkn 'Em and Music to Driveby. So MC Eiht had a better plan to revamp Tha Chill rapping career and choose to connect him with Compton rapper and fellow gang brother Boom Bam to form the group Niggas On The Run. Tha Chill agreed with MC Eiht plan and began to tour with C.M.W. opening up for all their shows with songs from N.O.T.R. In 1994, the N.O.T.R. rap album was shelved after the short release and members Tha Chill and Boom Bam became current members of the Compton's Most Wanted team. Tha Chill had never let making a few mistakes in life shorten his goals on becoming a respected artist. Knowing how to play the drums at an early age he ventured in producing and started recording songs for MC Eiht, MC Ren, Compton rapper C.P.O., Kokane, Jayo Felony, Killafornia Organization, Wanted Gang, Chillafornia, 1st Generation rap group King Tee, Kurupt, MC Eiht, Jayo Felony, producers Battle Catt and Sir Jinxs, Diirty OG'z with Kurupt, Tray Dee and Weasel Loc and the list goes on. Tha Chill is due any day in 2017 to release his solo album "4 Wit 80" written and produced by himself with some features of many popular artist and of all the original Compton's Most Wanted members: MC Eiht, Boom Bam and DJ Mike T.

After "Music To Driveby", MC Eiht had 3 albums left under contract with Epic Records and decided to pursue a solo career since he had already written the lyrics for all three C.M.W. previous albums. In 1994, MC Eiht debut solo album "We Come Strapped" featuring C.M.W. which was certified "Gold" after selling over 500,000 copies. In 1995, he released his 2nd solo album "Death Threatz" featuring C.M.W. In 1996 MC Eiht released his 3rd and last album on Epic Records "Last Man Standing" to finish out the 5-album deal with them. In 1997 and 1998, MC Eiht signed to Mack 10 "Ho Bangin Records" and release "Thicker Than Water" title song for the blockbuster movie "Thicker Than Water" and recorded 2 album as well "Section 8 and N' My Neighborhood". In the publics eye MC Eiht is a very underrated artist for the fact he has released a solo album, song features with popular artist such as: 2004 Snoop Dogg "Wet Like Candy" on the album Blue Carpet Treatment, 2004 and 2006 MC Eiht released collaboration album with Spice 1 "The Pioneers" and "Keep It Gangsta" and Brotha Lynch Hung "The New Season", 2010 1st Generation rap group with west coast artist King Tee, Kurupt, Tha Chill, Jayo Felony, producers Sir Jinxs and Battle Catt. "Sharks In The Water", "Killin' Me Softly" and "Whole World Spends" and 2012 Kendrick Lamar "M.A.A.D City" and various mixtapes every year since 1994 except for 2008, 2011 and 2016 where he stayed either working on tour or recording studio songs with himself and other artist. In 2016 MC Eiht recorded a feature on a young Compton rapper album known as "Problem" produced by DJ Quik which is soon to be released. In 2017 MC Eiht has joined forces with DJ Premier of Gangstarr and recorded his solo album "Which Way Is West" with features by Tha Chill, "Young Maylay", "Dub C" of the Westside Connection and many more.

Since the formation of Compton's Most Wanted in 1989, DJ Mike T was also known as one of the most top rated DJ's in the Los Angeles, CA. club scene. He worked in all the most popular dance spots in the Hollywood and Downtown areas for a promotional company known as Diamond Productions. In 1991, Diamond Productions had teamed up with R&B and hip hop singing group Bell, Biv, DeVoe and created an epic club era in the Los Angeles area called "Mental Mondays" with music provided by DJ Mike T. DJ Mike T has also produced songs for artist that were featured on DJ Slip "Sound Control Mob - Under Investigation (Compton compilation)" album. Such as: 1990, Vanilla C A.K.A. Ms. Vee and The Flava System song "Pump It" on Thump Records. 1990, PG 13 song "Childs Play" on the Rollin' Wit Da PG executive produced by The Unknown DJ on Quality Records. MC Eiht also had a feature on "Young Riders" and written a few songs on this album as well. 1991, DJ Mike T produced 3 songs on the "Compton Cartel - Back In The Hood" for "MC Looney Tunes A.K.A. Loon E Toons" song Lets Get Hype, "MC Shaheed" song Addressing The Blackman and "MC T Bear song Non Believers on Par Records. 1993, MC Loon E Toons and DJ Mike Tee "Inglewoodz Finast" (EP) on Power Move Records. 1996, "Flamin' Compilation" album with the songs by the Crenshaw Mafias with their song titled "Crenshaw Mafia" and Lil Hawk song "Crabs Keep On Slippin" on Triple X Records in the US and Dolphin Entertainment in Japan. Currently DJ Mike T A.K.A. "DJ Mike TzLee" is working from his home studio producing and DJing on mixtapes "Startin' Frum Skratch Studio" under the W.C. Skratch Gang production team.

DJ Slip subleased part of Cherokee Studios in the Fairfax, Los Angeles area and opened up "X Factor Studios" where he recorded popular Los Angeles rappers such as 1995, I Smooth 7 debut album Ghetto Life with songs produced by himself and others like DJ Battle Catt and DJ Fat Jack and scratching by DJ Mike T. Also in 1995, DJ Slip also recorded and mixed MC Eiht's 2nd solo album Death Threatz. In 2001 DJ Slip started working for an Independent studio/label West Coast hip hop IV Life Records.

Studio albums

 * It's a Compton Thang (1990)
 * Straight Checkn 'Em (1991)
 * Music to Driveby (1992)
 * Represent (2000)
 * Music to Gang Bang (2006)
 * Gangsta Bizness (2019)

Collaboration albums

 * Killafornia Organization with Killafornia Organization (1996)

Compilation albums

 * When We Wuz Bangin' 1989–1999: The Hitz (2001)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Compton's Most Wanted


text:
Lynchet

A lynchet or linchet is an earth terrace found on the side of a hill. Lynchets are a feature of ancient field systems of the British Isles. They are commonly found in vertical rows and more commonly referred to as "strip lynchets". Lynchets appear predominantly in Southern Britain and many are in areas close to Iron Age forts and other earthworks, including later Roman earthworks and earlier barrows from the Neolithic and Bronze Age periods. The size, location, spacing and number of rows of many strip lynchets indicates that many were man-made. It is most likely that lynchets were dug to maximise the use of land for agriculture, although they may have had other, ceremonial uses.

The word is the diminutive form of lynch, now rarely appearing in the English language, indicating an agricultural terrace; it is cognate with the golf links. However, both "lynchet" and "lynch" may also be used to refer to a strip of green land left between two pieces of ploughed land on non-sloping ground; or to a natural slope or terrace along the face of a chalk down.

The traditional theory on the formation of lynchets is that they may form naturally on the downslope of a field ploughed over a long period of time. The disturbed soil slips down the hillside to create a "positive lynchet" (where the new surface is higher than the original surface), while the area reduced in level becomes a "negative lynchet" (where the new surface is lower).

In Loders, Dorset, lynchets form a terraced band structure similar to an amphitheatre overlooking the village. Lynchets also form part of the conservation area of the neighbouring village of Uploders, where they apparently form old hillside field systems in close proximity to an Iron Age fort and hill-top barrows. 19th-century maps indicate that cider orchards were planted on some lynchets in that area.

title: Lynchet


text:
Sportbladet

Sportbladet is a Swedish newspaper about sport, mainly Swedish sport.

It is distributed together with Aftonbladet. The color of the newspaper is a variant of pink, often referred to as "baby pink". Braviken Paper Mill, Sweden is one of the producers of the paper used. Famous columnists include Simon Bank, Lars Anrell, Erik Niva and Lasse Sandlin.

title: Sportbladet


text: Category:Departments of Paraguay

title: Category:Departments of Paraguay


text:
Survival (Doctor Who)

Survival is the final serial of the 26th season of the British science fiction television series Doctor Who, which was first broadcast in three weekly parts on BBC1 from 22 November to 6 December 1989. It is the final story of the original 26-year run; the show did not return as a series until 2005. The story marks the final regular television appearances of Sylvester McCoy as the Seventh Doctor and Sophie Aldred as Ace, and the final television appearance of Anthony Ainley as the Master, appearing alongside McCoy's Doctor for the only time.

In the story, the Doctor brings Ace home to Perivale, where her friends have been transported to the planet of the Cheetah People.

Plot
The Seventh Doctor brings Ace back home to Perivale in west London. Ace becomes worried when most of her friends seem to have disappeared, but the Doctor is preoccupied with a black cat he sees skulking about. The cat appears to be selecting people and transporting them to another dimension. Ace finds herself being hunted down by a creature on horseback, which seems to be half-human, half-cheetah, which hunts with the black cat. The Doctor and a fitness instructor called Paterson are teleported to another world, where the Doctor is confronted by the Master.

The Master explains the situation: they are on a sentient planet, which has the power to transform the inhabitants into animals. The originally human inhabitants, which have since evolved into Cheetah People, used the black cats as pets. The Master shows signs of transformation and needs the Doctor's help to escape from the planet.

Ace finds her friends Shreela and Midge hiding in the woods with a young man called Derek. A Cheetah pack attacks, and during the fight Midge kills one Cheetah while Ace injures another, called Karra. She begins to form an attachment to Karra and treats her injuries, which worries the Doctor greatly. Ace's eyes change and she begins to transform into a Cheetah.

Midge submits to the power of the planet and begins to transform. The Master uses Midge to teleport both of them back to Earth. Ace helps the Doctor get back to Perivale, enabling Paterson, Derek and Shreela to flee the planet. The Doctor and Ace return to Perivale, where they find Midge and the Master have killed Paterson for sport. Midge is killed in the Master's machinations. Karra's arrival brings comfort to Ace, whose transformation is continuing, but the Master kills Karra.

The Master transports the Doctor with him back to the Cheetah Planet for a final conflict, but the Doctor resists the pull of the planet, turning away from violence, and is transported away from the dying world. However, the Master is trapped on the planet as it begins to break up. The Doctor has gone back to the TARDIS and Earth, where he finds Ace, whose metamorphosis has reversed.

Writing
Writer Rona Munro approached script editor Andrew Cartmel at a BBC scriptwriting workshop and said that she'd "kill to write for Doctor Who." The story Munro developed incorporated themes including the morals of hunting (personified by the Cheetah People and signposted by Ace's friend Ange collecting for hunt saboteurs). The title Survival was chosen by Cartmel. Munro was disappointed by the realisation of the Cheetah People:

"[They] should have just had cheetah eyes and a very faint pigmentation round of cheetah spots, and big canine teeth. And in fact, I think the actors that were cast, from what I was told, were doing all this wonderful expressive facial work, and then these 'Puss in Boots' things were dropped on them – and so then you can't see what they're doing under there. Particularly Karra and Ace, there were whole amazing scenes between them and for me, that was supposed to be my lesbian subtext – and you can't see it!"

Recording
Survival was one of only a handful of Doctor Who serials to be recorded completely on BBC Outside Broadcast video, instead of the mix of OB and studio video that was more common during the late 1980s, and the mix of film and video that was usual before. The other stories to be recorded solely on OB video were: The Sontaran Experiment (1975), Delta and the Bannermen (1987), Silver Nemesis (1988) and The Curse of Fenric (1989).

It was almost 38 C on the shooting days for the scenes on the planet of the Cheetah people. One of the extras removed her costume and simply walked off the set, causing delays while a replacement was found. The battle at the climax of the story was recorded and set on the site of the ancient hill fort at Horsenden Hill. The majority of location recording was done in and around Perivale, with small sections shot at nearby Ealing, and outside and near The Drayton Court pub.

The final Doctor Who episode in the original series
Having already realized that episode three of Survival was likely to be the last episode of Doctor Who for some time, and possibly the last ever, the show's producer John Nathan-Turner decided close to transmission that a more suitable conclusion should be given to the final episode. Script editor Andrew Cartmel wrote a short, melancholic closing monologue for Sylvester McCoy, which McCoy recorded on 23 November 1989, the day after episode one was broadcast and, by coincidence, the show's twenty-sixth anniversary:

"There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, the sea's asleep, and the rivers dream. People made of smoke, and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there’s injustice, and somewhere else the tea's getting cold. Come on, Ace – we've got work to do!"

This was dubbed over the closing scene as the Doctor and Ace walked off into the distance, apparently to further adventures. Although Survival was the last Doctor Who serial of the original series to be transmitted, it was not the last to have been produced; that was Ghost Light, which had been broadcast some weeks earlier, as the second story of the original run. The Doctor Who production office at the BBC finally closed down in August 1990, having been in continuous operation since 1963.

This story is the last to feature Anthony Ainley as the Master. Ainley was not asked to return as the Master for the 1996 Doctor Who television movie. Instead, Gordon Tipple was cast as the Master for the prologue and Eric Roberts played the Master for the rest of the movie. Ainley reprised the role of the Master for the 1997 computer game Destiny of the Doctors. He continued to be active in Doctor Who, attending conventions and recording a commentary track for the DVD of the 1981 serial The Keeper of Traken. Ainley died in May 2004.

McCoy and Aldred would reprise their roles onscreen on a number of occasions: first in a 1990 episode of the educational series Search Out Science; and again in 1993, along with many other former Doctor Who actors, for the Children in Need 30th anniversary special Dimensions in Time. McCoy would briefly return to the role for the 1996 Doctor Who television movie which saw the Seventh Doctor regenerate into the Eighth Doctor, played by Paul McGann, and once more in 2021 for a webcast trailer promoting the Blu-ray release of Season 24 alongside Bonnie Langford as Mel Bush.

If the series continued, Aldred would have remained in her role until the expiry of her contract midway through the following season. Ace was to be written out of the series in Ice Time, an Ice Warrior story written by Marc Platt. Aldred returned as Ace in 2019 for a webcast trailer promoting the Blu-ray release of Season 26.

In 1999, McCoy agreed to reprise his role as the Doctor in officially licensed Doctor Who audio adventures produced by Big Finish, with Aldred also returning the following year. As of 2022, both McCoy and Aldred continue to make regular appearances in Doctor Who audio releases and associated spin-offs. The pair also returned in 2001 for the BBC webcast production, Death Comes to Time.

Doctor Who eventually returned to television as a BBC Wales production in 2005, helmed by Russell T Davies. In 2022, Aldred made a special guest appearance as Ace in the revived series, alongside Janet Fielding as Tegan Jovanka, in The Power of the Doctor, which saw the end of Jodie Whittaker's tenure as the Thirteenth Doctor and was the last story produced entirely by BBC Studios before entering a co-production deal with Bad Wolf. McCoy also made a surprise cameo as a manifestation of the Seventh Doctor.

Cast notes
The part of Karra in this serial is played by Lisa Bowerman, who is now more familiar to fans as the voice of Bernice Summerfield in the Big Finish Productions audio dramas. She is also a director of many Big Finish productions, and also returned to the Doctor Who series proper when she provided voice-acting work for the animated special Dreamland in 2009.

This serial features guest appearances of the comedians Gareth Hale and Norman Pace, and actress Adele Silva (as an 8-year-old, in her first television role). See also Celebrity appearances in Doctor Who.

Broadcast and reception
There was no direct indication given to the public that this was to be the final regular instalment of Doctor Who; however, unlike previous years' final episodes, this one featured no announcement in the closing credits that the programme would return the following year.

Reviewing Survival, David J. Howe and Stephen James Walker described it as "a very good story", with a script that contains "highly imaginative and original concepts". They also expressed admiration for the special effects used for the Cheetah People's planet, calling them "superb electronic video effects". Ainley's performance was also praised, with the reviewers stating it was "deadly serious and implacably evil, but with occasional flashes of dark humour". While stating that it was "deeply regrettable" that the original series of Doctor Who had to end with Survival, they added "that it went out on such a high note is, however, something to be thankful for".

The serial was also positively received by Paul Cornell, Martin Day and Keith Topping, who praised Anthony Ainley's performance and considered the show to be "a great end to the series" with "an epic quality".

In print
A novelisation of this serial, written by Rona Munro, was published by Target Books in October 1990, making Munro the third woman to write a Doctor Who novelisation. A reprint edition was one of several possible books included with a 2008 issue of Doctor Who Magazine.

Home media
Survival was released on VHS in October 1995. It was released on DVD on 16 April 2007 as a 2-disc set. The serial was also released as part of the Doctor Who DVD Files collection, in issue 51, published 15 December 2010.

The story was released once more as part of the Doctor Who: The Collection Season 26 blu-ray box set released in 2020. It is the only story from season 26 not to have an alternate extended cut.

Soundtrack release
The music from this serial, composed by Dominic Glynn, was first released on CD on 15 September 2017.

title: Survival (Doctor Who)


text:
SCNR

SCNR may refer to:

 * Fundo Naicura Airport (ICAO code: SCNR)
 * Supreme Council for National Reconstruction, a military junta in South Korea in the 1960s
 * The YouTube Channel and News network operated by Tim Pool

title: SCNR


text:
Talk:National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration

problem with dates..
the article says the NOAA was started in the 1970's by richard nixon, but a picture right next to it shows meteorologists working for the NOAA in the "early 20th century". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.166.100.143 (talk) 03:49, 5 January 2005 (UTC)

 * Nixon restructured a whole bunch of departments and merged heaps into the NOAA. That picture is of the National Weather Service, probably back before the NWS took over the Department of Agriculture's Weather Bureau. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:49, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

IT SAYS THEY WERE WORKING FOR THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE, FOUNDED IN 1870, NOT THE NOAA. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.32.172.43 (talk) 02:11, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

 * If you look at NOOAs home page they say 1807. I heard Thomas Jefferson started it but haven't found the source yet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.193.81.46 (talk) 02:22, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

 * found it
 * "NOAA, an agency of the U.S. Commerce Department, is celebrating 200 years of science and service to the nation. From the establishment of the Survey of the Coast in 1807 by Thomas Jefferson to the formation of the Weather Bureau and the Commission of Fish and Fisheries in the 1870s, much of America's scientific heritage is rooted in NOAA. NOAA is dedicated to enhancing economic security and national safety through the prediction and research of weather and climate-related events and information service delivery for transportation, and by providing environmental stewardship of the nation's coastal and marine resources. Through the emerging Global Earth Observation System of Systems (GEOSS), NOAA is working with its federal partners, more than 60 countries and the European Commission to develop a global monitoring network that is as integrated as the planet it observes, predicts and protects."
 * from their magazine —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.193.81.46 (talk) 02:27, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Separate NOAA divisions from main NOAA page
Is there any objection to separating the NOAA divisions (for example: NWS and NESDIS) into their own Wikipedia entries and linking to them from the NOAA entry? If we add all of NOAA's divisions onto this one page, it is going to get really crowded. It also appears that NWS and NESDIS have enough info to be the start of a credible entry on their own. NMFS, OAR and NURP need a little more work to be more than stubs but they should warrant their own pages soon enough. Epolk 15:38, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

 * I have no objection to that - it makes sense to me. ottergoose 18:55, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

Budget(s)?
Some mention of the annual budget figures related to NOAA would be useful. Allenc28 — Preceding undated comment added 06:56, 23 October 2005

 * I read on think progress that they were spending $4Mil on their PR campaign but they just cut 700K from hurricane research--68.199.89.41 02:15, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

miami wikiproject
For some reason this article was labeled as part of Miami wikiproject. While NOAA is important to us here in South Florida, so is the Post Office, the IRS, and the Air Force. None of them should be a part of Miami wikiproject. GroveGuy (talk) 02:42, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

how about adding some critique section?
178.148.10.191 (talk) 00:45, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

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Requested move 14 October 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. There appears to be agreement that the acronym is used more often than the full name, but there is no consensus on the important question of whether the applicable policies support moving the page or not. (non-admin closure) Iffy★Chat -- 13:17, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration → NOAA – It is a more common name per Google Ngram. Also, NOAA is widely used in media, and it appears more than the full name in online search. NOAA is a commonly recognised abbreviation that is unlikely to have confusion. Given that NASA is an example, I am here to suggest this rename. B dash (talk) 14:08, 14 October 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. bd2412  T 23:52, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Support per NASA example.  CookieMonster755 ✉  21:36, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Support The nominator is correct. This agency is commonly referred to as NOOA in academic circles (see for example here). Den... (talk) 00:37, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:ACRONYMTITLE. As an encyclopedia, we should use an organization's common name, not its abbreviation, as a title, unless the full name is rarely used, which is not the case here. Station1 (talk) 03:29, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Support WP:NCA states "Acronyms should be used in a page name if the subject is known primarily by its abbreviation and that abbreviation is primarily associated with the subject" and "In general, if readers somewhat familiar with the subject are likely to only recognise the name by its acronym, then the acronym should be used as a title". Both of these criteria appear to be met with this agency. AusLondonder (talk) 06:13, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Support. Similar to other organizations commonly known primarily by their initials such as NASA, NATO, UNESCO, etc. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:19, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose - these are always judgement calls, but the OPs ngram result is just too close to justify use of the acronym. The NASA ngram for comparison shows a much greater degree of usage disparity, and the NOAA case just isn't even close to that level. -- Netoholic @  16:32, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Netoholic. I think that formulation of the requirement in WP:NCA that the subject is known primarily by its abbreviation presents a higher bar than being just more common in sources (well, most abbreviations will be more common than full titles). I don't think NOAA is there, and it's surely [edit: NOT] so world-renown as the counterexamples given. No such user (talk) 09:23, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose. With very few exceptions, we prefer full names over acronyms or abbreviations. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:28, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2 July 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Consensus to not move. (non-admin closure) —  Young Forever (talk)   16:30, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration → NOAA – WP:COMMONNAME. Soumya-8974 talk contribs subpages 16:10, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment  I found that similar RM was rejected on 2018. Therefore, if you wanna oppose this requested move, it will mean that you are supporting to rename NASA to National Aeronautics and Space Administration. --Soumya-8974 talk contribs subpages 16:13, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

 * Oppose per WP:ACRONYMTITLE. As an encyclopedia, we should use an organization's common name, not its abbreviation, as a title, unless the full name is rarely used, which is not the case here. Station1 (talk) 04:39, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Speedy oppose per WP:ACRONYMTITLE. Wtf no, the common name of this is the full name, NASA is not an appropriate comparison. Reywas92Talk 08:31, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

 * Oppose, NOAA isn't nearly the same as NASA. Using the full title is apt.--Hippeus (talk) 11:30, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment Google search of NOAA show 4.57 crore results, while National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration show 4.21 crore results. Therefore, NOAA is WP:COMMONNAME. --Soumya-8974 talk contribs subpages 05:53, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Also, NOAA is not ambiguous with other organizations acronymed as such, therefore WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. NOAA is also WP:CONCISE. --Soumya-8974 talk contribs subpages 05:56, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * NOAA is not a name at all, common or otherwise; it's an abbreviation of a name. And of course acronyms will always show more results than the full spelled-out name; that's their function, to allow multiple abbreviated uses once the reader knows the meaning. Frankly, I'm surprised the difference in results isn't much greater. We have to see if the acronym is usually used alone, without ever spelling out the full name, with the assumption that the reader will know its meaning. If it's not, the name is better use for an encyclopedia. Station1 (talk) 18:45, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose. While I'm not averse to using the acronym, the nominator has failed to show that it is the common name or that anything has changed since the last time this was discussed. Reliable sources, for example, continue to spell out the name of the agency on first reference  . Compare that to how reliable sources handle NASA  .   Calidum   19:01, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose. With a very few exceptions, using an abbreviation like this is a very bad idea. -- Necrothesp (talk) 23:18, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Headquarters location
Currently, the headquarters are listed in Silver Spring, Maryland with a note of a needed citation. So I looked it up on the NOAA website and on the contact page (https://www.noaa.gov/contact-us), it has an address in Washington D.C. Is it located in D.C. or is that just a mailing address? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marshmallo3535 (talk • contribs) 00:08, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

 * The mailing address is located at the Dept. of Commerce in Washington, DC (along with a few small offices). However, the primary operational/administrative headquarters has been located in Silver Spring for the last 30 years. Similarly, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission has a mailing address at the Dept. of Energy in DC, but maintains its actual headquarters in North Bethesda, MD. Somerset7 (talk) 19:03, 22 June 2023 (UTC)


text:
Talk:National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration/to do

 * Someone find or create a larger NWS logo and replace the one I (Ta bu shi da yu) have on this page! Done TomStar81 11/6/04
 * Find more links on the govt websites for the different divisions.
 * Create new articles for blank entries. I've been going to the U.S. govt websites directly and inputting the data they already have. A bit of NPOVing and you have a decent Wikpedia entry!
 * Entries for NOAA's Office of Oceangraphic and Atmospheric Research and its related subdivisions and affiliates have been creaetd. Most are stubs at this time but it gives a framework for OAR. Epolk June 28, 2005 22:43 (UTC)
 * The history section needs to reference the Stratton Commission report and in particular, make note of the fact that the Commission recommended that NOAA be an independent agency. [On Sept 10, 2019 The Rachel Maddow show did a segment that implied that NOAA was "supposed" to go to Interior rather than Commerce.]  https://archive.org/details/ournationseaplan00unit/page/232. Marty MD (talk) 16:58, 11 September 2019 (UTC)


text:
User talk:Amir1

Please stop reverting my talk page and writing offensive material anywhere on the Wikipedia. Some of that stuff is already on Mani1's talk page, continue them there if you like, but stop the abuse. That includes calling me a "dictator". I am allowed to remove personal attacks according the Wikipedia policy, and you will get blocked if you continue the abuse. Feel free to follow the case with the Wikipedia managers, but it seems that I don't have anything to discuss with you. It means that I don't like to hear from you. My talk page is only for talking to me. If you wish to talk to other people, use their own talk page. roozbeh 13:40, Aug 14, 2004 (UTC)

 * As if I wrote on your page because I enjoy chatting with you!! I came here to English Wikipedia because over in the Persian Wikipedia you were reverting and deleting and blocking.  I did not insult you unlike what you claim.  Calling you "dictator" is a personal attack?  So if due to your behavior I have felt that you are a dictator, how can I express this to you without it being labelled "a personal attack"?  Another good example is Mani.  I have watched the history of his work, and I can see how frustrated he must be, that you have basically kept an eye on him here in the English Wikipedia, and as soon as he has changed even one word in an article, you have immediately reverted back (often without even comments).  So after so many cases, he has started to feel that you are "anti-Iranian" in your behavior.  How can he communicate this to you without his communication being labelled "personal attack" by you?  According to YOUR interpretation of this Wikipedia rule, one can subjectively decide that any sentence that is less than complimentary and flattery is a "personal attack".  Amir 16:06, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Hi Amir, I came across your complaint on Jimbo's page ang although I offer no opinion whatsoever on your dispute with roozbeh I do want to offer you some advice on how we do things around here. Firstly, everyone has a right to not talk to people if they don't want to. Lot's of people delete stuff from their own talk pages, so you can't really complain about that. Take roozbeh's hint that he doesn't want to speak to you, and stop posting stuff to his talk page. Secondly it's not true that we don't have a compliants procedure here. We do. However I don't know if we can deal with complaints about another wikipedia here on the english version. In fact I'd go as far as saying we can't. So my question to you is this. Has roozbeh abused his admin powers here - on this wikipedia? If so tell me the details and I will try to help you. (I can undelete any pages he's deleted for example) If not then only Jimbo can help, but he's had to evacuate his home recently in the wake of a hurricane so he may not be on wikipedia for a little while. theresa knott 17:17, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * Hello Theresa, thank you for your comments.  As I mentioned above, I am not thrilled to chat with Roozbeh either, but then again, I haven't come over here for a warm and fuzzy confabulation with him, I have come here to hopefully settle an issue.  You ask me whether he has abused his sysop power here or not.  Well, I do not know if he has or hasn't, as I hardly ever use the English Wikipedia.  I just came over here in the hopes to straighten him out.  As for my note on Jimbo Wales page, I am sorry if this was extra-procedural (someone else already pointed that out to me).  I simply went to the admins page, and as I was in a bit of outrage due to Roozbeh's behavior, I think it was natural reaction that I soon found and focused on Jimbo's name and authority. What bothers me most about Roozbeh is that he thinks he can subjectively decide what part of what people write in discussion areas is "personal attack" or "impoliteness" and edit them to his liking.  I would not be surprised if he has done that here also, as it seems to be and uncontrollable and intrisic urge in this man to "correct" people.  I find this practice to be uncivilized and unacceptable beyond any words can describe.  When I revert back to my original posting, he reverts back to force his version of "my words!!!"  and since he has full authority over there, he will soon block my IP.  In other words, his attitude is "it will be my word or you are out of here". Is this the culture of Wikipedia?  -Amir

OK let's see if I can sort some things out. Firstly, I need to try and work out who said what. Roozbeh's talk page has a large number of anon postings. Which of those are you? Also do you have another named account here? Secondly we do have a policy of removing personal attacks. As far as I can tell, Roozbeh was followinig that policy in good faith when he edited your comments. Having said that, I personally consider being called a dictator a critism, somewhat insulting, but not a personal attack and not "name calling". He obviously does though, so IMO you should deal with this by rephrasing rather than reverting. As for the persian wikipedia, I can't help because of language difficulties. Is he the only admin there? Because an appeal to another admin would be your best bet IMO. theresa knott 00:33, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * When I created this ID I went back and signed all my previous postings except on Jimbo's page which I will do that also right after this note. Mine are all sighed "Amir" (not Amir1, but my ID is Amir1 because "Amir" was already taken). It is interesting that he calls people "terrorist/saboteur" and "pest/troll" but if someone tells him his practices are undemocratic he graces people's writing with his grammatically disasterous Persian (not to mention garbage load of Arabic words) and effectively tells people "I will choose your words for you since I have more power than you". As for the other admins over there, well, there are two of them and they are very carefully cherry-picked by Roozbeh -- it's kind of like Bush and the Iraqi Transitional Government.  Amir

 * Yes but some IDs are reverting, and I can't tell if they are you or someone else. As for the other admins I doubt very much that they consider themselves his puppets. (And would probably consider your remarks above insulting).I still think another admin is your best bet. If you word your request well, appeal to their sense of what's right, tell them they are the only ones with the power to help you, then most people will find it difficult to refuse.

 * I have to say though that Roozbeh's behaviour here is not as you describe. He has edited out some remarks that he takes as personal attacks, but he has left the bulk of people's critisms about him on his talk page. I'm not saying he hasn't acted differently on the Persian Wikipedia (how would I know?), but here he hasn't done anything wrong. Perhaps things have just got out of hand over there? Arguments get heated, tempers lost people say and do things they shouldn't. Sometimes the best way forward is just to leave things alone until everyone calms down, and then approach the matter later, when the heat has gone. Anyway that's my advise. theresa knott 21:26, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * OK Theresa, thank you for caring and trying to help out. I think your suggestion of leaving things alone for a while till they cool down is a good one.  I will give it a try.  I feel that perhaps I should not have brought this problem over here to the English Wikipedia and I am sorry for the bother. Take care and have fun.   -Amir 02:13, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * I put the 24-hour block on because it did appear the purpose of the Amir1 account was only to continue personal attacks on User:Roozbeh. Coming here for the purpose of furthering a dispute on another Wikipedia isn't quite identical, but it's close enough not to really matter. That is, it's a completely different purpose from anything to do with building an encyclopedia. You are of course entirely welcome to contribute on en:, but I strongly suggest you do your best to appear calm at all times, as well as being calm at all times - David Gerard 16:37, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Bahá'í Faith
Your edits at Bahá'í Faith are completely inappropriate and unacceptable. Your point of view of someone else's religion does not belong in an encyclopedia. Please don't do it again. RickK 07:01, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)

 * And who are you to determine what is appropriate and what is not? --Amir 07:36, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm a sysop who will block you if you do it again. RickK 07:38, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)

 * I know you are a sysop ... DUH !! hehe you think being a sysop means you can determine what is "appropriate" ?!! you are obviously stupid.  being sysop means that you have volunteered to help the project, not that you have been given the "right" to determine what is right and what is wrong.  In fact, if you were not stupid, you would not talk to a contributor to wikipedia in a tone that would make him leave the project.  do yourself and the project a favour and lose your badge. --Amir 07:41, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

How is the fact that I am a co-moderator of soc.religion.bahai in any way AT ALL relevent to the simple fact that _I_ scanned the image of the lotus temple on this page, that _I_ uploaded it, that _I_ know its an architects rendering?

Further, how is it that you think you can get away with POV comments like the one you inserted at the top? Nope. Not gonna happen. TALK TO ME about what you want to accomplish here. If what you want to accomplish is to attack the Baha'i Faith then MAKE SUBSTANTIATED EDITS. Rick Boatright 07:47, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This User has been blocked for 24 hours for anti-Bahai vandalism. RickK 07:49, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)

Have at it
The other sysops somehow feel that your biased edits about the Bahai Faith are appropriate, and they've unblocked you. I still think you're a bigot, but I won't deal with you any more. You seem to have free rein to do whatever you want, so have fun. RickK 21:35, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)

 * No, the other sysops didn't say they agree with my edits, the majority were reasonable enough to admit that your block was not right. Also, I despise your calling me a bigot. If you disagree with the pagetop note I was putting in there, why don't you take a look at the long list of my other contributions to the bahai articles?  Because of my contributions the articles have started to move out of their sorry state of being a religious promotional leaflet into something gradually resembling an encyclopedia article.  Also, although I admit I should have not reacted to your threatening language the way I did, the logic of what I told you is correct.  Adminship here is not a license to kill.  --Amir 22:09, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Your other edits were all bigotted to, Amir. PaulHammond 17:49, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)

 * btw - I've mentioned this to you before, earlier in the week, on the Baha'i Faith comment page. What you characterise as an article in a "sorry state" that is (in your never even remotely humble opinion) nothing more than a "religious promotional leaflet" used, in fact, to be a Wikipedia featured article, and has actually been through something of a testing process of meeting standards to outside observation to get to that status.  Your comments show contempt for the opinions of other editors, and other readers of that article who eventually voted to give it that status.  In my opinion, your attempts to use Wikipedia to vent your personal frustration at the Baha'is have had a detrimental effect on the quality of that article.  - PaulHammond 17:55, Feb 6, 2005 (UTC)

Reorganising Bahai Faith Discussion Archives
I have proposed to reorganise the Bahai Faith Discussion Archives by topic into separate pages. This should make it easier to follow the discussions. Some of the current very long page could be archived this way too. Your feedback on the suggestion would be appreciated because you are an active contributor to the article. If it has general approval, I could do likewise with the extensive Baha'u'llah discussion archives too. --Occamy 10:23, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Siyah Chal, picture and caption
You got it wrong. If you look at the page history you will see that it was Geni who introduced the information onto the page and Raul who moved it into the caption. I tried to rearrange the two actively disputed versions (picture at bottom/top) instead of the wrong distinction (nopicture/picture at top), but failed miserably as I did not get the templates right. I explained this on the talk pages. So my edits have nothing whatsoever to do with that bit. I did raise the issue of teh origin of teh picture on teh talk pages, but I am not convinced enough about the origin to transfer it onto the article. Refdoc 11:43, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

No, I did not ask anyone for sources. To be honest I did not even notice it in the article as I did not read it this time. I knew that this bit of information is floating around, but I did not see it in the article until you accused me of introducing misinformation. I was pre-occupied with the messed up template and Raul's version which had the picture twice on it. I do though agree, the matter needs sources. Refdoc 11:57, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Ahmad Kasravi
Amirjan, You are quoting Kasravi a lot and seem to know a lot about him. There is no wikipedia article on him. Could you start one? This is a serious suggestion. Refdoc 22:08, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * you know, i actually thought about doing that, but then i realized it will take some effort to write a nice article to introduce him. he really deserves a lot of credit and respect. i will write an article about him, give me a few days. --Amir 18:04, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You know, it's interesting that you mention that. Kasvari's book "Bahaism" isn't available in english, but certainly enough summaries of his basic underlying intellectual position are available to expect that we can understand what he wrote. This is, after all the man who said of the great persian poet Hafiz, that his poetry was "an assortment of meaningless words and foolish prattle; in other words, a stream of muddled, incoherent nonsense." You'll note that our friend Amir has used similar language from Kasravi regarding Baha'u'llah. Kasravi's indictment of the Persian national poet Rumi are scarecly less saying: " If there is no good, no evil, and no salvation, according to Rumi, why should people educate their children, build societies, and harbor hope for the future?" and about Omar Khayyam he called him " a kharabati or a nihilist haunter of taverns, and a promoter of toperism and tavernerism."

He didn't like Baha'u'llah either. Big surprize. In general, as far as I can tell, he painted anything that smelled vaugely of sufi with a big black tarry brush. And no one anywhere will deny the sufi leanings of the Baha'i Faith. :-)  It's also no great surprize that after a life of insulting almost every beloved cultural figure in Iran, a gang of thugs finally killed him.

I too would like to see a wikipedia article on Kasravi. He is more than worthy of inclusion in the encyclopaedia. Rick Boatright 23:09, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * how can you make such comments about kasravi if you haven't examined any of his works personally? he was amazingly accurate and honest in his works. that same kasravi pointed out the disingenuousness of edward browne in his scholarly works with regard to taking sides in the babi vs. bahai presentation of the facts and he criticized him for doing that. he criticized browne for having a pro-babi slant in his presentations. you have no clue who kasravi was. he also criticized shia islam even though he was born a shia.  to this day, his books on shia are banned in islamic iran. he never attacked the bahais personally or on dishonest or hateful grounds.

 * to the shia claim which says muhammad asked for pen and paper in his death bed to write a will in which he was going to declare Ali to be his successor and he said in arabic "bring me pen and paper i want to write" he said, well, if muhammad was illiterate, how could he ask for pen and paper to write? the mullahs had responded "he wanted it so that he dictates his will and someone else writes it for him", kasravi had then pointed out that the exact sentence in arabic which you guys have been using for many centuries says "bring me pen and paper i want to write" not "bring pen and paper for someone else to write" (there would be a clear distinction in arabic between the two, just as in any other language) and kasravi then wrote:  Muhammad was not Bahaullah to have such laughable arabic mistakes. even if he was illiterate, at least he could speak simple sentences correctly.

 * and unlike what you think, the thugs didn't kill him because he had criticized so many people and institutions and traditoins, he was killed by some islamic lunatics as a result of a Fatwa issued by the Shia cleriks because of his influence in the society, not the least of which was direct and untenable attack to the root of Shiism and bringing the whole thing under a big question mark.

 * that's the kasravi that we love. his assassination was a big loss for iran. --Amir 18:04, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'll certainly agree that his assasination was a huge loss for Iran. Only one of Kasravi's books is available in english On Islam and Shi'ism, which my local library has, and I have read through, although I have no idea how good the translation is. As to the gang of thugs, the beloved cultural figure I had in mind was Ali... since Kasravi rejects the entire basis for Shia. That would, generally, make you a less than popular figure in Iran. It's -worse- than attempting to prove that George Washington faked the election and bought his way into the presidency, or that Jesus didn't die on the cross, but was some sort of magician... because AMERICANS do not have a traiditon of killing people who attack our national heros and our religious figures. Moslems do. This is very sad. Freedom of speech is a good thing. Kasravi was an important figure in the Iranian enlightenment. Saddly, apparently, Iran still rejects the idea of being enlightened. This is, of course, a constant tension in American politics too, but once again, we have a distinct tradition against shooting breaking out over politics. I really ment it. It would be a REALLY GOOD THING if you wrote a Kasravi article. I would be happy to help with editing _without_ attempting to put a Baha'i bias on it at all. The wiki NEEDS an article on Kasravi, if only to take one more step against the gangs of thugs. (You _are_ using an alias here aren't you? ) Rick Boatright 23:10, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Archiving vs Deleting
The preferred way of dealing with bulky user talk pages is to archive it into subpages /subpage rather than deleting. Refdoc 17:55, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Turanian Society
Hi Amir, the current discussion on the name is largely doubled up with the - currently very short - entry on Turan itself. I do propose to keep the "origin of the name" explanation there. Have a look at my edit. Refdoc 10:09, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * The problem with your edit is that it is incorrect. Turan is not an ancient Persian/Iranian name for Turkistan.  The mapping of Turan to "the Turks" was done either by Firdawsi or the raw material he used to compose his Shahnama, because at the time of Firdawsi various Turkic nomads were constantly attacking and raiding Khorasan. But the original (ancient) Iranian epic stories are much much older than Firdawsi's time.  In the Iranian national epics, the wars of "Iran vs. Turan" is about the "good and evil" and even though they have an ostensibly external presentation, they are actually about the forces within us. So given the geopolitics of the time of the Shahnama, they decided to map the "Turanians" onto the Turks.  But the name "Turan" is completely an Iranian name and it is named after Tur who was one of the three sons of King Fereydoun who divided his "worldwide" kingdom between his three sons. Also all the Turanian heros in the Shahnama (and in the original ancient epics) have names that are etymologically Iranian not Turkic.  Nevertheless, the name Turan has no authentic Turkish origin.  It is made in contrast to the name Iran.  --Amir 10:37, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Aye, I have no problem with this. Thing is only that now (for a few hudnred years) - since Ferdowsi -, that Turan is used to signify Turkestan. And quite commonly names/words develop their own life - even if their ethymology is quite contrary to the original use and meaning. So my suggestion remains - Accept that Turanian Society is called after Turan, signifying for the founders of the society the Turkish areas north east of Iran and then move on into the Turan article and explain in detail the ethymology and its current use. I have no problem with what you wrote. I just think articles flow better if there are no major doublettes and particularly if necessary explanation and dispute is kept onto one page rather than spread everywhere. A downside of the spreading onto every page is that pages often get co-opted by "parties" who jealously guard and revert war over them and after a while you will find two or more articles about the smae subject with different POV, instead of one who explains the lot, searching an NPOV. Refdoc 12:11, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * PS.: I have added some of what you wrote here to the Turanarticle. Incidentally that article describes quite nicely how the name made it into 19th century politics and racial/linguistic theories... Refdoc 12:27, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Baha'i Faith page protection
While the Baha'i Faith page is protected, it is a good time for contributors to settle currently contentious issues through constructive and rational NPOV debate. So much time is wasted through edit wars yet--over the scale of months--they have little impact on the overall page. We should all use this time-out opportunity. Cheers. Occamy 12:22, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Amir come back?
Hey where are you? I could use your npov help on the baha'i pages Wjhonson 20:48, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

title: User talk:Amir1


text: Category:Provinces of Laos

title: Category:Provinces of Laos


text:
L'amore delle tre melarance

L'amore delle tre melarance is a 1761 play by Carlo Gozzi for the Teatro San Samuele, Venice. The play is best known today as the base for Prokofiev's opera The Love for Three Oranges (L'amour des trois oranges).

L'amore delle tre melarance is based on the Mediterranean (Italian) fairytale The Love for Three Oranges, written by Giambattista Basile in his Pentamerone.

authors: Я сошла с ума

title: L'amore delle tre melarance