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Mark Eaton

Mark Edward Eaton (January 24, 1957 – May 28, 2021) was an American professional basketball player who spent his entire career (1982–1993) with the Utah Jazz of the National Basketball Association (NBA). Named an NBA All-Star in 1989, he was twice voted the NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1985, 1989) and was a five-time member of the NBA All-Defensive Team. The 7 ft Eaton became one of the best defensive centers in NBA history. He led the league in blocks four times and holds the NBA single-season records for blocks (456) and blocked shots per game average (5.6), as well as career blocked shots per game (3.5). His No. 53 was retired by the Jazz.

Eaton was a reserve on his high school basketball team before graduating and working as an auto mechanic. He was discovered by an assistant coach at Cypress College, who persuaded Eaton to enroll at the community college and play basketball. Eaton transferred to play college basketball for the UCLA Bruins, but he was used sparingly. He was drafted in the fourth round of the 1982 NBA draft by the Utah Jazz as a long-term project. Eaton helped transform the Jazz from a last-place team into a perennial playoff team. When he retired from playing in 1994, he ranked second in the NBA in career blocks behind Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

Early life
Mark Edward Eaton was born on January 24, 1957, in Inglewood, California, and grew up in Southern California. His father, Bud, was a diesel mechanic instructor and stood 6 ft tall, while Eaton's mother, Delores, was 6 ft. Despite his height, Eaton was more interested in playing water polo than basketball. As a senior at Westminster High School in Orange County, he stood 6 ft and weighed 175 lb but was uncoordinated, not very muscular, and relegated to a backup role on the basketball team. "The coaches didn't know how to teach me to play big, and I didn't know how to play big," said Eaton.

College career
After graduating from high school in 1975, Eaton attended the Arizona Automotive Institute in Glendale and graduated as an automotive service technician. He returned to Orange County and worked as an auto mechanic, making $20,000 a year, when he was eventually discovered by Tom Lubin while repairing cars in Anaheim in April 1977. Lubin, a chemistry professor, was an assistant basketball coach at Cypress College. He had previously discovered Swen Nater, who did not play in high school but went on to a long, pro career. Lubin's uncle, Frank, played on the 1936 U.S. Olympic basketball team. Lubin's encouragement led Eaton to enroll at the community college in 1978 and try out for its basketball team.

After his freshman year at Cypress, Eaton was selected by the Phoenix Suns in the fifth round of the 1979 NBA draft with the 107th pick. He was eligible to be drafted because he was already four years removed from high school. However, he opted to return to college basketball. Eaton developed into a solid junior college player under head coach Don Johnson. He averaged 14.3 points per game in two seasons at Cypress and led the school to the California junior college title as a sophomore in 1980.

Eaton transferred to the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA) in 1980, but did not see much action in his two seasons with the Bruins. He played sparingly under head coach Larry Brown in 1980–81. The tallest players in the starting lineup were Darren Daye and Cliff Pruitt at 6 ft, but Eaton was too slow for the team's fast-paced offense. In Eaton's senior year in 1981–82, new coach Larry Farmer vowed to give him a shot to start, but heralded freshman Stuart Gray got the nod instead. Eaton played just 41 total minutes that season, averaging 1.3 points and 2.0 rebounds in 11 games. Farmer did not play him at all towards the end of the season and did not allow him to travel with the team on their last road trip to Oregon and Oregon State. "If I ever felt cheated, that was the time I felt the worst," recalled Eaton in 1985. "I had worked so hard and it wasn't like I was causing any problems."

Eaton was initially disappointed with his inability to play effectively in college. At a summer pickup game, Wilt Chamberlain saw his frustration, and encouraged Eaton to focus on protecting the basket, getting rebounds, and passing the ball to quicker guards, rather than trying to compete with smaller, quicker players in scoring. Eaton cited Chamberlain's advice as the turning point in his basketball career.

Professional career
Because of his lack of playing time at UCLA, few NBA teams had an interest in Eaton after he finished his college career. He paid for two tryout camps, but only received an offer of $15,000 to play in Israel and another for $25,000 in Monte Carlo. However, the Utah Jazz, who finished in last place the prior season, saw him as a potentially dominant defender and selected him as a long-term project in the fourth round of the 1982 NBA draft with the 72nd overall pick. Utah coach Frank Layden quipped, "Like [former University of Utah coach] Jack Gardner said, 'You can't teach height.'" Also the team's general manager, Layden discouraged Eaton from playing in Europe and signed him to a five-year contract, with the first season guaranteed at $45,000, for a total $570,000.

Eaton had worn No. 35 at UCLA, but the number was already taken on the Jazz by Darrell Griffith, prompting Eaton to choose the reversed No. 53. Entering the NBA, Eaton's goal was to become a journeyman backup. He made an immediate impact as a rookie, starting 32 games and replacing Danny Schayes after the cash-strapped Jazz traded the center mid-season. Eaton finished the season with a then-franchise record 275 blocked shots while averaging only 19 minutes per game. His 3.4 blocks per game ranked third in the NBA, behind Atlanta's Tree Rollins and San Diego's Bill Walton.

The Jazz placed Eaton on a six-day-a-week program in the offseason. Layden said they treated him "like a high school kid as far as basketball skills are concerned". Eaton continued to improve in his second season. In 82 games in 1983–84, he grabbed a team-leading 595 rebounds and blocked 351 shots (breaking his own franchise record). His 4.28 blocks per game led the NBA, well ahead of Rollins (who finished second with 3.60 blocks per game). During the season, he failed in his attempt to block the hook shot which gave Kareem Abdul-Jabbar his 31,421st point to break the NBA career scoring record held by Chamberlain. Eaton's strong defense helped the Jazz improve from 30–52 in his rookie season to 45–37, winning their first Midwest Division title and making their first playoff appearance.

In Eaton's third season in 1984–85, he blocked 456 shots, shattering the NBA record for most blocked shots in a single season set during the 1973–74 season by Elmore Smith, who had blocked 393 shots for the Los Angeles Lakers. Eaton averaged 5.56 blocks per game, an NBA single-season record that was more than double the league's second-ranked shot-blocker that season (Houston's Hakeem Olajuwon with 2.68 blocks per game). In addition, Eaton averaged 11.3 rebounds per game, ranking fifth in the league in that category. "We had no idea that he would develop the way he has," said Layden during the season. Eaton was not on the All-Star ballot that year after being one of the final cuts. For his efforts, he was named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team and was honored as the NBA Defensive Player of the Year. On April 26, 1985, Eaton had ten blocks in a 96–94 loss to the Rockets, becoming the first NBA player to record ten blocks in a playoff game (later tied by Olajuwon and Andrew Bynum).

Although he was not a significant offensive contributor, the Jazz relied heavily on Eaton for his shot-blocking, rebounding, and occasional "tippy toe" dunks. With the emergence of superstars Karl Malone and John Stockton, the Jazz became one of the best teams in the NBA. Eaton's stifling defense was a major factor in Utah's success. He continued to rank among NBA leaders in blocked shots, leading the league in 1986–87 and 1987–88. On November 17, 1987, Eaton set a career high with 25 rebounds in a 120–110 win over the Denver Nuggets. In 1988–89, he averaged 10.3 rebounds per game (seventh in the NBA) and 3.84 blocks per game (second behind Golden State's Manute Bol). He was named NBA Defensive Player of the Year for the second time in his career and received his third selection to the NBA All-Defensive First Team. In addition, he was chosen to play in the 1989 NBA All-Star Game, joining teammates Malone and Stockton on the Western Conference team. It was the first time that the Jazz had three players in the All-Star Game.

In the 1989 playoffs, the second-seeded Jazz were upset in the first round 3–0 by the seventh-seeded Warriors. Golden State coach Don Nelson spread out his offense and avoided going inside against Eaton, and they played most of the series with a small lineup in which their tallest players on the court were 6 ft Larry Smith or Ben McDonald or even 6 ft Rod Higgins. Opponents were increasingly playing with smaller lineups, forcing Eaton to guard a quicker player who would draw him out to the perimeter and seek to drive past him. Utah coach Jerry Sloan countered by decreasing Eaton's playing time and employing his own small lineup with backup center Mike Brown. In 1991–92, there was speculation that the more offensive-minded Brown would start the season at center, but Sloan stuck with Eaton. However, Eaton's playing time dropped to 25 minutes per game from 32 minutes in 1990–91.

After missing just nine games in his first 10 seasons, Eaton was hindered by knee and back injuries late in his career. His rebounding and shot-blocking averages declined. During the 1992–93 season, knee surgery and back problems limited him to 64 games, averaging 17.3 minutes per game, both career lows. A degenerative back ailment forced him to drop out of training camp and miss the 1993–94 season; his contract expired at the end of the season. After therapy failed to correct the problem, he announced his retirement from basketball in September 1994.

Legacy
Eaton spent his entire 11-year NBA career with the Utah Jazz, helping transform the franchise from perennial 50-game losers to perennial 50-game winners. After going 30–52 in his first year, they made the playoffs in each of his 10 other seasons, beginning a run of 20 straight postseason appearances for the Jazz. In 875 games, he scored 5,216 points, grabbed 6,939 rebounds, and blocked 3,064 shots. At the time of his retirement, he ranked second all-time in league history in total blocked shots, behind Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's career total of 3,189. Blocks were not recorded as an official statistic until Abdul-Jabbar's fifth NBA season in 1973–74. Eaton is the NBA's all-time leader in blocks per game, with a career average of 3.50. In a six-season span from his second season through his seventh (1983–1989), he led the league in blocks four times and was the runner-up twice while averaging 4.3 blocks per games over 488 contests. He never averaged more than 10 points per game in a season, which frustrated Utah fans after his scoring tapered off following a career high of 9.7 in 1984–85.

To honor his contributions to the team, the Utah Jazz retired Eaton's No. 53 in 1996. In 2010, he was inducted into the Utah Sports Hall of Fame along with former Jazz player Tom Chambers.

In 2014, Eaton had his jersey retired at Westminster High School and also at Cypress College, along with Swen Nater and head coach Don Johnson.

Regular season
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Playoffs
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College
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Post-playing career
After his retirement, Eaton worked for KJZZ-TV in Salt Lake City, providing color commentary and analysis for television broadcasts of Utah Jazz and University of Utah basketball games. He also hosted a radio talk show before Jazz games.

Eaton was a partner in Salt Lake City-area restaurants Tuscany and Franck's.

He was a president/board member of the National Basketball Retired Players Association (NBRPA) from 1997 to 2007. He was also a founder and chairman of the Mark Eaton Standing Tall for Youth organization, which provided sports and outdoor activities for at-risk children in Utah. He was also a motivational speaker, and published the book The Four Commitments of a Winning Team.

In the 2013 NBA Slam Dunk Contest, Jazz player Jeremy Evans jumped over a seated Eaton to dunk the ball. In later years, Eaton became a mentor to Jazz center Rudy Gobert, who joined him as the only other player in the franchise's history to be named defensive player of the year.

Personal life
Eaton married his first wife, Marci, in 1980. A registered nurse who trained in Los Angeles, she worked as a nurse in Santa Monica to support him while he was attending college. The Eatons had two sons, Nicolas and Douglas.

While living in Utah in Jeremy Ranch in the 1980s, Eaton ordered a mountain bike suitable for his body frame, and he biked a number of the region's first mountain bike trails. Around 2016, he began riding a custom French-built road bike for tall cyclists, which came outfitted with 36 in wheels.

On May 28, 2021, Eaton biked with a neighbor to lunch. A few hours after returning home, Eaton told his wife, Teri, that he was going for a short ride in the neighborhood. He died after a bicycle accident about a block from his home in Park City, Utah. He was found unresponsive by a passerby and was pronounced dead at the hospital. He was 64 years old. The sheriff said that there were no witnesses to the incident nor any indication that a vehicle was involved.

title: Mark Eaton


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Talk:Brute-force attack

Quantum computer speculation
I don't think this line should be in here "Quantum computers are needed to crack such complicated encryptions in a more practical length of time."

Quantum computing is not going to get around thermodynamic limits of 256 bit keys. More info: http://everything2.com/user/dogganos/writeups/Thermodynamics+limits+on+cryptanalysis

Certainly it is not the case that "Quantum computers are needed" - that implies that they are *currently* being considered, and that is no longer the case. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Meepdeedoo (talk • contribs) 13:56, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Salting as mitigation for reverse brute-force
In the recent "| edit toggle" between Multichill and Guy Macon, Multichill is correct. When just a single plaintext password is tried against a corpus of unsalted hashes, if ten accounts have the same password, all ten of them are cracked with the same amount of effort. By contrast, if the hashes are salted, the calculations for that hash have to be performed for each of those ten users, even if they all have the same password. In other words, for this specific kind of attack, salting significantly increases the processing time required and is one of the primary recommended mitigations. Royce (talk) 07:28, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

 * That's not what the source says. Your logic is correct, but is it WP:OR. If you have a reliable secondary source that says what you are claiming, please re-add the claim along with the source that supports it. The existing source says:

 * "Essentially there are two types of brute force attacks, (normal) brute force and reverse brute force. A normal brute force attack uses a single username against many passwords. A reverse brute force attack uses many usernames against one password. In systems with millions of user accounts, the odds of multiple users having the same password dramatically increases. While brute force techniques are highly popular and often successful, they can take hours, weeks or years to complete."

 * It only talks about trying passwords against usernames. It says nothing about trying passwords against hashes.

 * Getting back to your WP:OR, according to my WP:OR (which is equally useless as a basis for edits to the article) an attacker who has access to the hashes has a distinct advantage if the hashes are not salted, but the best way for an attacker to exploit that advantage is not to do a reverse brute force attack. The best use of his resources is to identify a hash that has multiple high-value accounts  and do a conventional brute force attack against one of them. If he succeeds, he has the rest of them for free. By contrast, by doing a reverse brute force attack in that situation he only spends a portion of his effort on the accounts with the duplicate hashes. Salting is definitely a way of making life harder on an attacker, but you are wrong in thinking that this is somehow specific to attackers who do reverse brute force attacks. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:46, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Mask Attack
When reading about the Hashcat system, I came upon the term "Mask Attack" which as far as I understand is a form of Brute force attack but with a limitations on the form of the forces tried. Could this be a suitable addition to this page about brute force, or is it better seen as an article of its own? Svartkaffe (talk) 07:23, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Brute-force attack


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Talk:Dungan language

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 19 January 2021 and 6 May 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Saraphina9666. Peer reviewers: Lukenam12.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 19:55, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Is Dungan an Endangered Language?
According to Endangered Languages, Dungan is an endangered language and its level of vitality is "Vulnerable". Does anyone mind verifying it before I try to add it in? --N6EpBa7Q (talk) 07:34, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Are There Any Websites in the Dungan Language in Cyrillic Script?
I am just wondering if there are any websites in the Dungan language in Cyrillic script. Thank you! --Roland 03:05, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Ң/ң
Do they actually use the letters "Ң" and "ң"? What sound does it represent? I read documents that they record the "ng" sound with two characters "N"+"G" instead of a special character.--Tomchiukc 18:26, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

mutually intelligible?
Does any one know if this language is mutually intelligible with spoken Chinese in anyway? I tried to read the romanized Dungan paragraph, but was only able to pick up a few words. --Voidvector 09:29, Nov 23, 2004 (UTC)

I've read online accounts by journalists from Shaanxi or Gansu about how they conversed quite easily with the Dungans. They were able to provide examples from their conversation of Qing Dynasty vocabulary that the Dungan were still using (and, apparently, the journalists understood), such as "jingcheng" for capital (in the Dungans' case, Moscow or Bishkek), and "yamen" for government. -- ran (talk) 14:46, Nov 23, 2004 (UTC)
 * Is Dungan a subset of Mandarin? SIL ethnologue has classified it separately. — Instantnood 20:04, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)
 * I would consider this as another language entirely different from the Chinese language. It has a unique set of alphabets, a similar case to Vietnamese. -- Jerry Crimson Mann 20:39, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)
 * Vietnamese is of another language family, though it used to be written in a modified form of Chinese characters until recently, with many loan words. It is the same case for Korean. Dungan is considered a Chinese language, except the script. — Instantnood 20:45, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)

Vietnamese is a very poor analogy... it is not part of Mandarin, or even the Sinitic family. It could readopt Chinese characters tomorrow and it would still be a language separate from Chinese. Better examples would be Moldovan, which used Cyrillic until independence, or Croatian and Serbian. And in these cases we can see that from the intelligibility point of view, Moldovan is a part of Romanian, while Croatian and Serbian are both part of Serbo-Croatian, but from a political and cultural standpoint (the same sort that makes Mandarin and Cantonese the "same" language), Moldovan, Croatian, and Serbian are independent languages. The same can probably be said about Dungan. -- ran (talk) 23:22, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)
 * I see. Obviously linguistics is something beyond my ken. :-P -- Jerry Crimson Mann 06:46, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Umm in that case Dungan is within the Mandarin family from the intelligility point of view, am I right? :-) — Instantnood 08:35, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, Dungan language and Zhongyuan Mandarin are mutually intelligible. Watch the following video for references:
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45PpUyWNv-o -- N6EpBa7Q (talk) 06:24, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Taking sometime to digest, it is quite easy to find that it is intelligible to Mandarin. With the help of English, I was able to transcribe almost the entire sentence using Chinese characters (source). There was only 1 character of which I am not sure: --Voidvector 22:32, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Dungan: KHAN-YAN (III-1). Tu yigeh bufindi yisisi "gandi", di eirgeh bufindi yis'isi "yikhozi tsomyo" (bilyun: khuon-yan, khiyan).
 * Exact Chinese: 旱烟 (III-1). 它一个部分的意思是“干的”，第二个部分的意思是“一科子草苗”（比如：？烟、黑烟）
 * English: tobacco (III-I). The meaning of the first part is "dry," the meaning of the second part is "a kind of grass" (for example: tobacco [plant], black smoke).

 * That is amazing work! Yes, you are right.. It is actually just Mandarin with slight accent/pronounciation changes and written in Cyrillic!!

86.42.180.90 (talk) 22:52, 30 March 2008 (UTC)Tomz

Autonym
Is "khueuzwu yuuyan" cognate to "回族語言"? Might be useful to indicate this, if true. -- CaliforniaAliBaba
 * Yes it is, except it would be written in Cyrillic, not Hanzi) or Roman alphabet.--Yuje 15:22, August 7, 2005 (UTC)
 * If someone could supply the Cyrillic form for the language box, I'd be grateful. I was tempted to write "Хуеузў үүян" on the basis of the transliteration provided at, but I don't know if that's actually correct. --Angr/undefined 11:24, 26 September 2005 (UTC) Never mind, just found it at Omniglot! --Angr/undefined 11:25, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Sl,any reason why you deleted all mention of Хуэйзў йүян from the introductory sentence, changed the native name Хуэйзў йүян to Дунганский Язык, which is a Russian term, and the like? cab 15:56, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Huizu yuyan (Хуэйзў йүян, 回族語言), literally means Hui ethnic language(s). It is a term to describe the language(s) of the genetic Hui ethnicity (includes Uyghur in a broad sense). I admit that “Дунганский Язык” is a Russian term. Should we merely use “Дунган” instead? --Hello World! 16:52, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Uh, dunno. Since both of our sources (admittedly, that's just Omniglot and Ethnologue) claim Хуэйзў йүян, I'd say leaving it as that makes more sense until someone can point to some real books on the subject. Though to be honest, I can't imagine that an ethnic group in a Russian-speaking country would actually use the name Хуэйзў very long (given the visual resemblance of the first syllable to a very famous item of impolite language). cab 13:13, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, | this book review claims that, as far as the ethnic autonym goes, the Dungan call themselves "Хуэйзў", and "Дунган" was the name that others give them. (This agrees with what Dungan says too.) I'm starting to lean towards the position that we should list the native name of the language as Хуэйзў йүян. cab 13:36, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

 * I re-added Хуэйзў йүян Xuejzw jyian to the article, forgetting that there had been this discussion here. However, it seems that this is indeed their autonym. — Gareth Hughes 13:27, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

ISO 639-2 tag
Should the ISO 639-2 tag of Dungan be  (Chinese) instead of   (generic Sino-Tibetan)? --Hello World! 11:19, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The standard says it's . AFAIK   is not used as a collective code. cab 16:13, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Alphabet
As this is the English wikipedia, a romanized reading of each letter ought to be included in the chart of the alphabet. The reading differs from the standard, you know, when the Cyrillic alphabet is adapted to non-Russian languages. This information is included in the Omniglot page. Can somebody proficient in IPA add a reading intelligible to English speakers? Until this is done, I will add the transliteration from the Mair document--Javiskefka 23:58, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

arabic script
Can arabic script be added to the chart? Xiao'erjing equivalency would be nice. 70.55.84.6 06:55, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Chinese equivalency
Can chinese equivalency be provided for the chart? In bopomofo and pinyin, and chinese characters used for phonetics. 70.55.84.6 06:57, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I highly doubt they standardized the Dungan Cyrillic writing system on modern Mandarin, so it shouldn't be possible. --Voidvector (talk) 20:10, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Russian/Japanese translation needed
The Russian and Japanese articles on this topic are more comprehensive, suggest translation. --Voidvector 08:55, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Tone Marks
If in Dungan writing, tone marks or indicators are not shown, then how are you suppose to distinguish between words that are spelt the same!!? It is a tonal language and being able to distinguish the tones is the most important aspect. How do Dungan speakers tell apart those words then if there are no tone marks with the Cyrillic letters?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.180.90 (talk) 23:03, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe that the following factors in Dungan writing (such as there is - I don't know how much writing and reading in Dungan is actually done these days...) contribute to intelligibility: Taken together, this must make Dungan text just as readable to a Dungan native speaker as Pinyin text with proper word division (they have rules for that, just don't always follow them) but without tone marks would be to a Standard Mandarin speaker who's used to this form of writing (e.g., in an instant messenger). Somebody - probably William Hannas in his "Orthographic Dilemma" - quotes the results of a study that says that word division contributes much more to intelligibility than tone marks do. E.g., you'd immediately recognize two-syllable words such as "shenghou" ('life') or "shihou" ('time') or "mihou" ('macaque') or "shiyue" ('October') or "xihongshi" ('tomato'), regardless of the potential polysemy of the syllables "shi" or "hou"; and "shi" is recognizable as 'to be' when it appears after the subject. I am sure Victor Mair's article (online, in one of the references) has more to say on this. Vmenkov (talk) 08:31, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * intelligent division of text into words (the Dungan rules are fairly similar to those used in pinyin),
 * the presence of context,
 * fewer Wenyanisms, and more European-languages loanwords than in Standard Mandarin.

 * That's gonna be confusing with stuff like "shishi", which could be 事实(fact), 实事(factual story), 事事(everything), 时事(current events), 时时(from time to time), 失实 (discrepancy), 世事(life's story), 实施 (implement), etc etc. There are like 10 more words with this same sound but different tone.--Voidvector (talk) 23:53, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

 * Good point. To be honest, I don't know to which extent the above homophone set (ignoring tones) appears in Dungan, or even to which extent the ambiguity would actually be confusing to a Chinese reader reading an actual meaningful baihua text in pinyin. (I suppose you speak Chinese, but my Chinese is not much better than my Dungan, that is pretty much non-existent -- so I can't judge). The small Dungan-Russian dictionary (ca. 150 pages) I've seen lists "шысы" (tones I-III; 'fact', 事实), "шысы" (tones II-III; Russian: 'мирное дело' = 'a peaceful affair/business'; Chinese: ??), "шысы" (tones III-III; 'event'), "сышы" (III-I, 四十, 'forty'), "сышы" (III-III, 'обстоятельство' = 'circumstance', 事势 ?), as well as the adjectives "шышырди" (tones 1-1-1, 'completely wet'; 湿湿儿的 ?) and "шысысуйди" (十四岁的, 14-year-old), plus the adverb "сысы-кики" (III-III-I-I, 'constantly, all the time', 时时兮兮 ?). So the number of homographs is reduced because some Pinyin "shi" syllables appear in Dungan as "сы" rather than "шы". But then of course this would also bring the "si"-in-Pinyin morphemes into the homographic mix. As far as I know, there is not all that much writing actually done in Dungan (it's a small community, and well-literate in Russian), but I wonder if those who do write it have to sometimes be extra careful in word choice on account of the homography... Vmenkov (talk) 08:55, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Difference between Hui language and Dungan language?
This article is written in English as if there is a Dungan language that is distinct from the Hui language (or the language spoken by the Hui in China). But the transliteration of the name of the language in the "box" translates as "Hui language" (phonetically xu̯ɛi̯.t͡su jy.iɑn). So does this mean that the language of Dungans (autonym Hui) in Central Asia and the Hui (autonym Hui) in China is essentially identical except for the scripts? And if the language is called Hui by its own native speakers (both in China and in Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan), why is there an article called "Dungan language" in Wikipedia but not an article called "Hui language"?--Mack2 (talk) 01:58, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

 * In other words, if there is just one language involved here (with perhaps dialectal or subdialectal differences), then why is this Wikipedia article written using the name of the people and language use by different ethnic groups (Kyrgyz, Kazakhs, Russians) but not by the Hui themselves?--Mack2 (talk) 01:52, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

 * If there is just one (Hui) language involved (with two writing systems), then why does the little chart indicate the regions where the language is spoken as Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan but not China?--Mack2 (talk) 02:17, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

 * What is the relationship between Huizhou Chinese, Hui language, and Dungan language?--Mack2 (talk) 02:35, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

 * No connection whatsoever. Vmenkov (talk) 01:15, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Hui people in China speak Chinese (whatever Chinese dialect locally spoken). So there is no universal Hui language. In theory, Dungan language is descended from a dialect of Chinese, but its vocabulary changed significantly so it is barely intelligible to Chinese speaker. --Voidvector (talk) 05:30, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Hui people in China used to speak a dialect of Mandarin Chinese, and so do Dungans (Hui of Kzakhstan and Kyrgyzstan). The question is how different is the language spoken by the "Hui" from which the "Dungans" are descended and the "Dungan language" spoken by Dungans (Hui of Central Asia)? If you have a source I'd appreciate seeing it.--Mack2 (talk) 05:36, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * In any case, why does this article have the title "Dungan language" when the people who speak this language call themselves "Hui" and call their language "Hui language"?--Mack2 (talk) 05:47, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Why is "Chinese language" called "Chinese" in English? Why is it not called "Zhongwen" or "Hanyu" in English? Why is "Russian language" called "Russian" in English? Why is it not called "Russkij"? Each language has its own custom, you don't change it once the custom is in place. There has been effort to rename Persian to Farsi, it hasn't fully succeed yet.
 * The analogy isn't correct. In ENGLISH the people are called Hui when they are in China, but Dungan when they are in Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, or Russia, even though they call themselves Hui in all of these locations?--Mack2 (talk) 09:18, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * As for how different is it from Mandarin? I have no clue. This article says one can be understood, which I don't think is that significant, if you speak Spanish, you can make yourself understood to a Portuguese speaker. --Voidvector (talk) 06:09, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * This might be a little bit of a late reply to Mack2's comment, but from what I've been told, the Russians called these people Dungans and avoided the term "Hui", because in Russian, хуй (huy) means "penis", and in the Russian language is an expletive used similarly to "fuck" in English. See also Mat (Russian profanity), Russian jokes. --  李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 12:42, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Based on my recollection of a variety of sources I've seen (the intro in Svetlana Rimsky-Korsakoff Dyer's book on Iasyr Shivaza, articles in Soviet encyclopedias and other books written by the experts on Dungan, sections on the Russian wiki article which were written by a linguist with expertise in Dungan (Dr. Zavyalova)), Victor Mair's article in Sino-Platonic Papers, the situations is roughly as follows:
 * In China, the Hui people mostly speak (and spoke in the 19th century) the same Mandarin dialect at the people around them; however, certain areas (parts of in Xinjiang) have been settled by the Hui and the Han in different times, and from different areas, which means that in such regions the Hui and the Han may have spoken different Mandarin dialects at least for a while. While speaking basically the same dialect as their non-Muslim Han neighbors, he Muslim Hui would nonetheless have certain particular expressions in their speech, as e.g. Owen Lattimore notes in The Desert Road to Turkestan.
 * In the mid-1800s, the Hui people (then all living within the Qing Empire) were almost universally known in European languages as "Dungans" (with a variety of spelling), viz. Dungane in Russian or Tungani, Tungans etc in English. The Westerners mostly became aware of them during the Dungan revolt, and the name still lingers in the scholarly writing about the period both in English and Russian (e.g., Kim Hodong still used "Tungans" in his 2004 monograph on the Dungan revolt, and Moiseyev in Barnaul goes for Dungane as well).
 * The 1870s-80s Dungan (Hui) settlers in today's Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan were (directly or indirectly) of Gansu and Shaanxi origin (see Rimsky-Korsakoff "Karakunuz" paper), and spoke Mandarin dialect of those locations. As of 1900, they were almost all illiterate. They of course were still called Dungane in Russian, and, I presume, continued to call themselves Huizu in their own language.
 * As in the late 1920s-early 1930s the Soviet scholars worked on assigning every Soviet citizen to a particular identifiable ethnic group with a codified language, and creating written standards for most languages with a large enough (say, 50,000-100,000+) number of speakers, Dungansky yazyk ('Dungan language') became the standard Russian name for the language used by the Dungan (Hui) people in the USSR, while in the books written in Dungan itself, the language naturally enough was called Huejzw jyian /Хуэйзў йүян (which would be Huizu yuyan, in Pinyin), or (at least, early on) җун-ян хуа (中原话, Zhongyuan Hua - based on the the home region in China). The term Dungansky yazyk, as far as I know, is not  used in mainstream Russian publications with respect to the people in China.
 * In the first half of the 20th century, English-language writers who visited the Hui people's homeland in China (e.g. Edgar Snow or Owen Lattimore) would usually just call them "Mohammedans", sometimes also mentioning that they are called Hui min (回民), Huihui (回回), or more respectfully Lao Huihui (老回回); the word Dungan seems to have mostly disappeared by that time in writing about the contemporary Hui people of China. By the late 20th century, "Hui people", copying Chinese Huizu (回族) became the standard in English when talking about these people in the PRC.
 * Not a lot was written in English about the (Soviet) Dungan people or their language, and the best "first-hand" English-language scholarship on the subject is by people who speak both Chinese and Russian, and have visited the region (meaning, S. Rimsky-Korsakoff Dyer); others (e.g. Victor H. Mair) would draw on sources and the works in Rusisan (some written by ethnic Dungan scholars in Frunze as well). Having worked with Russian sources, and perhaps influenced by the 19th century tradition (viz. books about Yaqub Beg etc) these writers naturally made "Dungans" and "Dungan language" the standard English terms for this group and their language. This is how the Dungan/Hui split in English terminology (paralleling similar, although less precise, split in Russian) must have appeared.
 * As to the language itself - well, I don't really speak Chinese, but by looking at a few Dungan books (dictionaries, high school textbook, folk tales) my impression was that they are codifying a somewhat divergent version of Mandarin (e.g., with shuāngshù(r) (双数(儿), "even number") becoming фонфур fonfur. I once had a chat with a Dungan gentlemen while waiting for a bus in Kyrgyzstan, and he claimed that he has no problems speaking with people in China when doing business there (but then of course he also spoke perfect Russian to me, so he would have no problems speaking to people when doing business in Russia either!).
 * The Russian wiki article says - based on the standard Russian reference sources, that "Два основных впоследствии получили название "ганьсуйский" и "шэньсийский"... . Оба относятся к подгруппе Центральной равнины (中原 Чжунъюань), Внутри подгруппы Центральной равнины дунганские диалекты, в свою очередь, могут быть определены как принадлежащие к небольшому компактному ареалу, охватыващему юго-восток провинции Ганьсу (но не Ланьчжоу) и западную часть долины Гуаньчжун (关中) (но не Сиань) в провинции Шэньси.  Ганьсуйский диалект был выбран в качестве основы для создания литературного дунганского языка в СССР." I.e., "The two main (Soviet Dungan) dialects have been later called the "Gansu dialect" and "Shaanxi dialect"... Both belong to the Zhonguyan dialect group of Mandarin. Within the Zhongyuan group, the Dungan dialects may be described as belonging to a small compact area which includes southeastern Gansu (but not Lanzhou) and the western part of Guanzhong valley (but not Xi'an) in Shaanxi. The "Gansu dialect" [of the Soviet Dungan] was chosen as the basis for creating the standard literary Dungan language in the USSR." So based in this, I'd assume that a Dungan traveler from Milyanfan would have a particularly easy time talking to Chinese people iif he were to visit those particular areas of Gansu and Shaanxi. Or, at least, speaking to older residents of that area - I have no idea to which extent the population composition and the people's speech there has changed since the 1870s... Vmenkov (talk) 01:13, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Vmenkov: this is very valuable information, and fits and documents my impressions. Some of what you've written here could be incorporated into the article.  The image of the book on standardization of the writing system is also very interesting.  Since it's dated 1937, this must be standardization of the orthography in Cyrillic script -- right? Thank you for your contribution here.--Mack2 (talk) 05:07, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No, the 1937 paper's title is in Latin Dungan alphabet (and, below, in Russian), so they were apparently standardizing the Latin-based Dungan orthography. (Or going to standardize, at any rate - that being 1937, one would not be surprised if some of the participants of the planned meeting found themselves in the Kolyma instead...) According to S. Rimsky-Korsakoff Dyer, Soviet linguists did not get around to work out Cyrillic Dungan alphabet until 1952. ( S. Rimsky-Korsakoff Dyer, Iasyr Shivaza, p. 243). Vmenkov (talk) 10:36, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * In this period (late 1920s to early-mid 1930's) many of the Turkic languages were outfitted with Latin-based alphabets to replace Arabic alphabets. The problem for Hui was different, of course, because they didn't start with a working alphabet, just Chinese characters.  But possibly the language planners for Hui-Dungan learned something from the work of the "Committee of the North" (Committee for Assistance to the Peoples of the Northern Borderlands), which during this same period was busy creating alphabets for some of the so-called scriptless (bespismennye) paleo-asiatic and Tungusic languages in Siberia. This activity has been described in Yuri Slezkine, Arctic Mirrors: Russia and the Small Peoples of the North (Cornell University Press, 1994).  Some of these languages actually had textbooks (at least azbuki) published in them (but I'm not sure when -- I have some old notes on this based on looking at Yezhegodnik knigi SSSR from 1934 and later years -- sitting in my garage!).--Mack2 (talk) 21:10, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Possibly also, as you imply, the Hui-Dungan project came to a bitter end at the same time. By 1939 at least (earlier in some cases such as Crimean Tatar -- and with the exception of Armenian and Georgian, and later the Baltic languages) Cyrillic became the all-USSR standard (apparently Kalmyk did so in 1924 -- at least according to the source cited in WP). But I would imagine that the actual impact would have been delayed in schools because they had to produce and distribute textbooks first in Latin scripts, then in Cyrillic scripts, and the onset of war (the anticipation of which was probably one reason for the Cyricillization) certainly slowed the implementation of the full production of nw textbooks til after the War.--Mack2 (talk) 21:10, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

 * At some point, not sure when, Mongolian acquired a Cyrillic script but I imagine they bypassed an intermediate tranformation into Latin script -- I wonder when the Cyrillicization happened in Buryatia and Mongolia itself (maybe this happened when Kalmyk dropped its old Mongolian script and took a Cyrillic form?). Similarly, in Inner-Mongolia (Neimenggu), I wonder whether they had used the same script as in "Outer" Mongolia and Buryatia at some point (I have no idea of the timings of the transformations).--Mack2 (talk) 21:10, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

YouTube
Here's Chinese documentary with portion on Dungan on YT. I am posting for those who are interested in hearing how the language sounds. http://www.youtube.com/user/beifeng126. I don't think the uploader has the right to upload those video, so I wouldn't link it in the article. --72.229.231.53 (talk) 04:39, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

 * Very interesting how the conversation is carried out. The conversation about family life was very intelligible to a mandarin speaker. However the conversation with the elder about history was barely intelligble. Instead of a perfectly casual converation (using pronouns), often the parties would what repeat other said to make sure they understand correctly. --209.122.208.139 (talk) 13:05, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

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Examples?
It'd be nice to see examples with Dungan script and IPA to better see what the language actually looks like when written. Shibolet Nehrd (talk) 07:13, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Dungan language


text:
Category:Lamborghini

This category refers to the Italian sports car marque, Lamborghini.

title: Category:Lamborghini


text:
User talk:Wblakesx

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia! Hope you like it here, and stick around.

Here are some tips to help you get started:

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 * Explore, be bold in editing pages, and, most importantly, have fun!

Good luck!

Hi, sorry to hear you were having trouble. As for where discussion should go, it depends. If you want to leave a message for a specific user, then you can go to their talk page, as you did to me, and they will be alerted with a little note telling them "You have new messages". If it's about a specific article, then go to that article's talk page (e.g., for 2004 Democratic National Convention, discuss on Talk:2004 Democratic National Convention). That's more for comments and ideas about specific articles. Hope this helps, and if you'd like more info, just let me know. Best, [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 13:13, 2004 Aug 4 (UTC)

For general policy proposals and discussion of design, etc., the best place to try would probably be Village pump. Best wishes, [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 13:01, 2004 Aug 11 (UTC)

FNORD
Hi! This is Icarus!, being non-Wiki (I'm not logged in...), saying thanx for the work on the Discordianism page! Keep it up!24.176.20.60 16:49, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

boundary functions
Hi Wblakesx,

your edit to the "requested articles" page messed up the section headers so I've reverted it. Is it possible the article you want is Boundary value problem? If not, you can place a link to boundary function down in the "still unsorted" section of the "requested articles" page. Please observe the format in which requests are made, and do the same. Thanks, Trovatore 20:56, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

The botteville prattle
Hi Blake. I just noticed I left comments on your user page, which should be reserved for a nice presentation of your identity, such as you care to reveal. So I am moving it all to here, which should result in a nice yellow box letting you know you have messages. Here it is:

Blake!
Welcome to Wikipedia, Blake.

Now that you have been welcomed, let me point out that you wandered onto Thales and left a comment that goes something like this: "the author's last comments on Ari are too terribly intriguiging" What author? You mean me? When you were on there the whole thing was totally blitzed by some vandals. Who is Ari? You mean Aristotle? Disconnect? What do you mean? Is this a serious comment? If so, how can I help you? Did you check the "External links" and "Sources?"Dave 04:34, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Dave, I'm taking a fast read through the Thales entry, it seems to have grown, very nice. I find this rather intriguing:

Method

Thales represents something new in method as well. Edmund Husserl ("the Vienna Lecture") attempts to capture it as follows. Philosophical man is a new cultural configuration based on a rejection of tradition in favor of an inquiry into what is true in itself; that is, an ideal of truth. It begins with isolated individuals such as Thales, but they are supported and cooperated with as time goes on. **** Finally the ideal transforms the norms of society, leaping across national borders.****

 * the last sentence is very striking, indicating the basis for a universal society or tribe. I'd add this idea but it is so pregnant as to leap out of the main text. Of course Thale's idea may have been a commonplace in certain contemporary circles, but to replace parochial cosmologies with universal ones and seeing it in his epoch is very interesting. ( Nichomachean ethics and the idea of loving the good in others as in oneself...|)

In "Influences on others" Anaxagorous should be mentioned, especially since he taught both Socrates and Pericles ( quite an accomplishment!) perhaps this is the connection between Thales and Aristotle you mention toward the end of the article.

Parenthetically we can see much of Aristotle's method in Herodotus, telling the more likely opinions of a subject, choosing a most likely or formulating his own. I wonder if Thales and Herodotus were aware of each other. Also could a connection with Euclid be made?

Now it's been some time sent I made the request you quoted, the article may be different in respect to my request etc. Yes Ari for Aristotle. If my comment was relative to the present last paragraph:

Aristotle was an Academic. Academic philosophy had a distinct stamp: it professed the theory of matter and form, which modern scholastics have dubbed hylo-morphism. Though once very widespread, it was not generally adopted by rationalist and modern science, as it mainly is useful in metaphysical analyses, but does not lend itelf to the detail that is of interest to modern science. It is not clear that the theory of matter and form existed as early as Thales, and if it did, whether Thales espoused it.

 * we might reinterpret this as Matter and Order which are very potent ideas. But I don't think I would have asked for expansion of that topic. Perhaps.... you could send a link or email of the article as it was when I commented.

By author I would mean you. Btw, a lovely article, thanks- Dave aka wblakesx           @           yaaahhhhhoo

botteville replies
Hi Blake. You can run comments by me anytime. I've been working on Greek dialects but I suppose I could get back to phlosophy before it gets too cold. The original plan was to work my way forward from Thales. Big idea, but then Wiki is a big place. Oh, if you leave the comments on my discussion page rather than my user page then I get the yellow box that someone has left a message. I moved your message to the discussion page. You should have got a yellow box for this message.Dave 11:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC) PS: I just noticed I did the same thing so I fixed it (I hope). Ding dong!Dave 11:24, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Your edits to Talk:God
Please do not add non-productive commentary to the talk page for God. KillerChihuahua?!? 16:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

user page
Please stop adding comments to Killer Chihuahua's user page. All messages should go on the talk page. ⇒   SWAT Jester    Ready    Aim    Fire!  00:05, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

God
The next time you vandalize a user's page, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Danny Lilithborne 01:42, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * [[Image:Stop hand.svg|left|30px]] Welcome to Wikipedia. We invite everyone to contribute constructively to our encyclopedia. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing. However, unconstructive edits are considered vandalism. If you continue in this manner you may be blocked from editing without further warning. Please stop, and consider improving rather than damaging the work of others. Thank you.  Danny Lilithborne 00:36, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Please stop. If you continue to target users' pages for vandalism you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia.  Danny Lilithborne 00:55, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * So talk. Danny Lilithborne 01:12, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
 * [[Image:Stop_hand.svg|left|30px]] This is your last warning.
 * I am not sympathetic. This is an encyclopedia, not a theology discussion forum.  If you want to air personal grievances with the Jewish faith, there are places on the Internet you can do that.  On Wikipedia, it is not appropriate. Danny Lilithborne 01:49, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

{help me} What do you need help with? Jfing e  r s  88  04:15, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The above is a load of thin skinned, small minded crapulence. My SERIOUS OFFENCE was to reply top the links LEFT ON MY PAGE ( there is no talk page on at least the first nasty admin, neither a page search, nor a wiki search turned one up ). There was nothing of vandal in my post. I posted "your God my Satan" on the God discussion page, which is well understood by those with serious interest, education, and intelligence. Not exactly a koan, it was none the less meant to Stimulate thinkers. Also, I didn't have time to discuss the Gnostics and others beliefs that the Old Testement God is the Demiurge, a persona =to Satan, and I said Jews intesd of followers of the old testement ( seems anything resemling criticism of ******* even saying the jews, is damnable while it is quite ok to criticise almost any other group! OH the lunacy in the world!). For the rest, I am not expert in this rather large rule set and rather than a polite redirect I have been threatened with banning' The first page of the user's guide says "be bold", methinks boldness to some of these faux adminitrators would be such things as taking a smell of a can of beer. I am Very disappoited but I suppose I can only blame myself for being very surprised.
 * You should stop airing out your dirty laundry regarding admins at non-admins. Danny Lilithborne 01:33, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and I "aired my 'dirty laundry'" by asking for help!!!! Methinks there's a student of Karl Rove running things here, now. Unreal the idiocy passing as lofty. It's a sadomaso thing.

Well I am chastised, and will stay awy from Tobacco Road for awhile.Wblakesx 02:21, 22 November 2006 (UTC)wblakesx

[ Saved from dispute res page for future ref: "Label the comment neutrally but do not sign and do not use names (type 02:47, 22 November 2006 (UTC), which gives only a timestamp)....". don't know if I understand this bit? My problems can be picked up at my user talk page, wblakesx talk. I have never modified an article itself, and have never had any problems before. I have found incivility and presumtions, from some admins, of bad faith where none existed. After removing the objected to material have "been left hanging in the air". I replied to links left on my talk page and have been threated for vandalism and serious vandalism. . I am here for procedural reasons only, feedback to avoid runaway system destruction ( info theory and electronics metaphor, also applied in a work called "The Nerves of Government" governance. I firmly believe I have met some admins who are not ethically ot tempermentally up to the job. I don't have a lot of time presently to deal with this but would like to see Wiki not taken by little tyrants. But who cares?Wblakesx 02:47, 22 November 2006 (UTC)]

Did I add that this page was seriously vandalized by one of the above admins. All was erased but the first paragraph of the page. None of my complaints has been so much as replied to. Some thugs are in positions of power, who cares, not danny lilithbore, self styled " does not give a fuck" er ( look him up, the quote is a paraphrase from bore's talk page including the explictive, yet he can ban and edit and is partic interested in the God page.)

title: User talk:Wblakesx


text:
Intergovernmental Affairs Secretariat (Canada)

The Intergovernmental Affairs Secretariat (Secrétariat des affaires intergouvernementales) is a government agency of Canada that is part of the Privy Council Office. Directed by a deputy minister, it supports the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs and, through the Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, the Prime Minister of Canada and Cabinet, with respect to policy and communications in such areas as federal-provincial-territorial relations, Aboriginal affairs, the evolution of the federation and Canadian unity.

Intergovernmental Affairs provides analysis, advice, liaison and strategic planning. It monitors policy files with important intergovernmental dimensions, assesses federal, provincial and territorial priorities, and works with federal departments and the provincial and territorial governments. It also addresses constitutional and legal issues relating to the evolution of the federation and Canadian unity.

The mandate of Intergovernmental Affairs also consists in co-ordinating the efforts of the Government of Canada to make the federation more efficient and to enable governments to address citizens' needs ever more effectively.


text:
User talk:Ilyanep/Talk Archive 2

Wikiproject Help
Added you to the participants list on WikiProject Highways. Thanks for deciding to help out! --Spikey 03:15, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)
 * You're very welcome. Ilyanep 03:21, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The Teacup Poisoner
Er hi Ilyanep! I'm curious about what you found to comment on about the teacup poisoner... was I doing something wrong? I know I set up quite a few redirects at once, but I couldn't decide if his nickname should be treated like a proper name or not (re: capitalisation). Burning with curiosity, Fabiform 02:23, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC) :)

 * I'm sorry. I wasn't sure if such a broad term should've been applied to a certain person, but when I realised it was simply a nickname (not a broad term for certain kinds of poisoners, er...my ignorance I guess), I said, "oh forget about it" and restored it. I do, however have a qualm with having orphaned redirects, though. Ilyanep 02:53, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * Thanks. Are orphaned redirects frowned on in general, or is it just your preference?  I've mentioned his nickname in a couple of places in wikipedia while I was adding him to lists and the anniversary pages etc.  I could make those into links, but since they would take you to the same page as his name, it might not be worth it.  What do you think?  IMHO orphaned redirects shouldn't be a problem, I mean wikipedia is still growing, and I added those redirects on the offchance that in the future someone will try to link to that phrase.  When I'm wikifying an article, I tend to remove incidental links if they come up red rather than leaving them in in case someone creates an article called that in the future, I suspect most people do the same but it doesn't help develop wikipedia into a strong network of links if you think about it.  (Did that make sense?) Fabiform 03:03, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * It made sense, but I personally (don't know about the community) don't like orphaned redirects, because you can make them afterwards. Whatever, you can keep them, if anybody else has a qualm, then we'll talk. Ilyanep 21:16, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. I asked on the pump and they said that there was nothing wrong with my redirects as they pointed to a fully fledged article.  ... because you can make them afterwards - that's what I was doing when you spotted them in RC.  fabiform | talk 14:01, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * I was saying that if you ever need the redirects, you can make them afterwards, but on second thought, wikipedia is not paper. You know, I'm really torn between to sides here. Ilyanep 14:10, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Conscientology
Hi, This word Conscientology is a very good term but used for a unrelevant thought.
 * I'm sorry, looks like i did screw up. *Stupid, Stupid Stupid*, BAD DOBBY! Lol. Alright, thanks a lot. Ilyanep 21:16, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * Quite OK, nothing to hit yourself over. *grin* - Hephaestos 23:54, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Daniel Rutherford
I cut two of the three external links on Daniel Rutherford because they gave very short life summaries (one or two paragraphs) that didn't say much more than was in the article already, and what was different I put in. It could do with a link to a longer bio of Rutherford ... (shoudl probably discuss this on Talk:Daniel Rutherford) - David Gerard 20:07, Jan 31, 2004 (UTC)

Impertinent
I've noticed you sometimes use the word "impertinent" to mean "not pertinent". While this is one of the meanings listed in the dictionary, the word "impertinent" is most commonly used in English to mean "exceeding the limits of propriety or good manners; improperly forward or bold". Cheers, Cyan 02:12, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * k. Lol. Ilyanep 02:23, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

172
I've been having a little back and forth with User:172, and noticed that you had the same problem previously. Do you have any words of advice on how I may settle this in a friendly and civil manner? --Hcheney 19:16, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * I'm afraid that once 172 has been started, there is no way to settle it calmly. No matter how you try to justify your claim...he'll find something else wrong. My word of advice is to either stay away, or find a way to put in an edit that cannot in good sense be reverted. Ilyanep 13:30, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

WikiProject Wars
Hi, I'm interested in helping out with WikiProject Wars. I've been adding a "Warbox" to the USA millitary conflicts articles, perhaps this can be used for more series? I've put a template of sorts at User:Darkelf/WarBox. Jor 21:03, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Sure...why not? Ilyanep 14:32, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

American Alligators
Some time ago, you posted a reward for an article on American Alligators... - Wikipedia 20:51, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Cool. Ilyanep 21:30, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

Banana pic
Hi! Just a note to let you know I replaced your Banana pic with one I took myself. Yours was very small and had no larger version available. Hope you don't mind, if you do just revert. Best Wishes, Adrian Pingstone 21:11, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Sure, thanx Ilyanep 21:30, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

Ronald Reagan
In retrospect, Regean's presidency can be summed up by "All in all, not bad...not bad at all." God bless Ronald Reagan and may his soul rest in peace. Ilyanep 02:55, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Co-Writing
Saw your request for co-writing assistance on computer science, science, and political articles. (Gee, could this sound more like a personals ad? Let's see… ☺) I've got a fairly old B.S. in computer science with minors in math, physics, and astronomy, a lifetime fascination with chemistry and genetics, and nearly 30 years' experience working with computers, during which I used my science background infrequently. I also have an obsession with comparing and contrasting political views without favoring any. (More accurately, I have a tendency to argue the opposite view of whomever I encounter.) My best qualification, perhaps, is having a considerable amount of time to work on Wikipedia articles. I've never co-written an article (physical or virtual), but I'm game to try if you think I could be useful. -- Jeff Q 20:29, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * (Response).

Beaurucratship
Hello. I noticed your request for bureaucratship and I had a couple of quick questions. I don't see you voting often at Requests for Adminship, is there any reason why? Do you support adminship being widespread and generally "no big deal" or do you feel adminship should be more exclusive? As a bureaucrat would you give controversial user's and troll's votes equal weight to the votes of respected contributors? Best regards --"D ICK " C HENEY 18:47, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

(User talk:Hcheney Response)

 * Thank you for answering my questions. You have my support. I just have a little follow-up. My concern is that adminship is becoming an elite "club" where only the top 2 or 3 percent most prolific contributors are reasonable candidates, and the need for being that prolific could scare away candidates with private sector jobs. What scares me is the potential for an admin pool composed solely of youth on summer break, the unemployed, academics, and Europeans (who have much shorter work weeks than Americans). Furthermore, one of the admins I respect most (User:Jwrosenzweig) was elected with less than 500 contributions under his belt.
 * One of the strongest opponents of adminship being "no big deal" is presently a bureaucrat. Considering that on occassion, bureaucrats need to build consensus amongst themselves, what would you do to help promote adminship diversity? --"D ICK " C HENEY 19:26, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * (User talk:Hcheney Response)

User Pages
Hi, I'm not sure what you mean when you say you don't get the formatting toolbar. Do you get it on all other pages other than your user page? Angela. 02:17, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * I get it on some user pages (when I click edit), but not on mine and some others... Ilyanep 14:17, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * I can't see why that would be the case. Have you tried clearing your cache or forcing the page to reload. If you still have problems, try reporting it as a bug at sourceforge. Angela. 14:33, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Co-Writing

 * from the pump

Would anyone be interested in writing an article with me? I like to write articles in Computer Science and Science and Political stuff (maybe some other stuff too)...but two+ heads are better than one! Please reply here or on my talk page. Ilyanep 01:07, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * I have a half-assed version of "name mangling" that I need motivation to work on. Hmm, maybe that's too trivial for any sane wikipedian. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 01:29, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Graph
I wrote a small script to make the graph automatically using gnuplot. I can make you one if want; it only takes a few seconds. VV 19:51, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes please...and can you show me how to use the script so I can update it myself? (Do I need to use Linux?) Ilyanep 01:18, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * Hey sorry, I've been on the Internet sparsely these days and so letting things pile up. Here is the graph: [[Media:Ilyanepbyhour.png]].  Since you're an admin, you can just delete it if you want.  The script requires some UNIX-like system; Linux is good.  I'm not sure I want to start distributing it yet, but I'll consider putting it under my user page (and thus GFDL'ing it). VV 00:59, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * Wow, thanks a lot. Guess I'm gonna have to stop sleeping to fill in that big empty gap in the middle :). If you ever release the script...please tell me...sounds interesting (and I do have Mandrake Linux. [9.2 as of yet, 10.00 soon). Ilyanep 01:16, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Bureaucrat
Congratulations! You're a bureaucrat. Please read the instructions at Bureaucrats and Bureaucrat before making any new sysops. Angela. 23:08, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Ouch...
I bonked my head on a wall that was by a staircase and it really hurts, cuz I have a bruise or something like it there...I don't know if my judgement is affected though :P. And I am happy about the bureaucrat thing (this is the first time I can actually spell bureaucrat now). Ilyanep 23:42, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Stealing user pages...
Check out User:Siroxo for a good variation on my user page. - Tεx  τ  urε  21:16, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

My New User Page Layout
Thanks to Texture for letting me use his layout and make a variation. How do y'all like it? Ilyanep (Talk) 22:15, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Nice...
(IN reply to This)

Thanks, ugen64 is a "kid" as well. And here are those letters: Þ, Æ, Ŋ, Œ, ß, Ə, Ð. Sorry, no refunds. =) -- Merovingian  ✍ Talk 04:04, Jun 25, 2004 (UTC)

Contribution graph script
The graph was generated with a Python script I hacked together. The code is a total mess, and for that reason I haven't put it up on my user page so others can use it yet. I might get around to cleaning up the code eventually. In the meantime, here's one of your contribution history:

- Fredrik | talk 18:53, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * Thanks a lot :)

Note to self
From the pump (so it doesn't get deleted):

 * 1. Mozex (get it from the Extensions site if you're using Firefox 0.9). 2. If you have access to Unix-style filters, copy a slab of your contributions into a file (call it contribs), then "cat contribs | sed -e '/^[^0-9]*//'|cut -d':' -f1 | sort | uniq -c" will get the right data for you 3. CPAN - pick your OS Dysprosia 00:22, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * Oh, I don't have Firefox. I do have Perl 5.8.4 (Win32) and a Python Interpreter. I also have Linux 9.2 but it won't connect to the internet. Ilyanep (Talk) 20:42, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * Mozex works with Mozilla too, and there's a Win32 Perl version as well Dysprosia 01:13, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

In response to your question about PAradigm-city
Paradigm City is from a cartoon anime called Big O. go to this site to learn more (when it gets back up) : www.paradigm-city.com

cudailike

 * I'm sure you're at the wrong talk page...I didn't ask anything of such. Ilyanep (Talk) 21:28, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Testimonial
Hi Ilya,

I've removed your comment from Testimonials. Is there any specific place where you have written this?:

 * Wikipedia is great, I use it as the main source for all school projects. Generally, when I'm explaining something my supplement is usually a Wikipedia link. Also, I've probably advertised WP to all of my friends by now. And the openness allows for more information to be added. In 3 words, Wikipedia is awesome!

The page is intended for "genuine" testimonials rather than stuff which we make up on the spot (see the intro). Of course I share your view on Wikipedia but unless this is something you have expressed before, elsewhere, I'd say it shouldn't be on that page.--Eloquence*

 * I'd have to find the address...get back to you later. Ilyanep (Talk) 20:04, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Scripts
Can anyone help me learn to write some simple text manipulation scripts that would work with Wikipedia articles (such as turning an article backwards or making some text l33t)? What tools would I need to do so? I'm really good with computers so this would be a breeze. I don't intend to vandalize anything...just have a little clean fun in the sandbox and play a few tricks on april 1st :) Ilyanep (Talk) 20:13, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * Whilst I'm sure you are beyond reproach the same may not necessarily apply to anyone else who reads this page. So, it would be even sillier to inform people how they can do such things than it would be to have an article on how to commit a felony.  Oh bugger. --bodnotbod 00:42, Jun 25, 2004 (UTC)

 * I know it's not policy, but can someone tell me at my email address (there's that 'email this user' at my user page). Also, I want to know how to keep the articles linked correctly. And if anything...can someone reccomend a language (nothing 'smart' like "English") to write it in? Ilyanep (Talk) 01:23, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * I'd suggest Perl, only for reason that it's pretty easy to do some textual manipulations with it. For example if you want to change all the occurences of "teh" to "the", the Perl one-liner while(<>){ s/teh/the/; print; } will do it (acting as a filter). Dysprosia 09:48, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * How do you get it to read the Wikipedia article? And also, how do people read their contributions to make contributions graphs? (BTW, how do I get a Perl Interpreter?) Ilyanep (Talk) 19:29, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * Try user:Perl. →Raul654 19:38, Jun 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * PS - that was a joke. Laugh, it's funny.

 * Umm...ha, ha...? Ilyanep (Talk) 19:44, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * 1. Mozex (get it from the Extensions site if you're using Firefox 0.9). 2. If you have access to Unix-style filters, copy a slab of your contributions into a file (call it contribs), then "cat contribs | sed -e '/^[^0-9]*//'|cut -d':' -f1 | sort | uniq -c" will get the right data for you 3. CPAN - pick your OS Dysprosia 00:22, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * Oh, I don't have Firefox. I do have Perl 5.8.4 (Win32) and a Python Interpreter. I also have Linux 9.2 but it won't connect to the internet. Ilyanep (Talk) 20:42, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * Could you send me this Linux 9.2 you speak of? Alas, i only have 2.6.5 and would both like to get your version and information on whatever time-warping wormhole it came from. Regards, --Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 21:25, 2004 Jul 3 (UTC)
 * Mozex works with Mozilla too, and there's a Win32 Perl version as well Dysprosia 01:13, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hi Ilyanep, I moved the above from the village pump in case you hadn't seen it yet. Angela. 12:26, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Stuff
Your talk page formats weird. And yes, I'm 14. :) 141.166.211.213 14:35, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC) (ugen64)
 * Yeah, I kind of stole the design from Texture, I like it. I'm 13. Ilyanep (Talk) 15:40, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

User:Stopthebus18
I was surprised by the abusive language this user used against you on Talk:FOX News - e.g., "motherfucker", "schmuck", "Court Jew". I can only assume there is some bad history between you two? Whatever the case may be, such abuse is highly detrimental to the projecct, and if it's a recurring issue you might consider an RfC page or some other response. V V 11:37, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * We have had barely any interaction before except on talk:FOX News and about Ronald Reagan on my page. The only reason he is using that language is because I have stated Republican views (see the recent archive of Talk:FOX News) Ilyanep (Talk) 13:43, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Sysop request
Hi Ilyanep, I stumbled across your user page and I noticed that you live in Carol Stream, and that you're 13. I just wanted to say hi because I live in Geneva, which is very close to Carol Stream, and I happen to be 14. I figured that I could trust you with a question: Would you be willing to recommend me to become a sysop? I'm not requesting that you do (although that would be very nice), but I was just wondering if you'd mark me as "eligible". I've done just over 130 edits, which isn't that many compared to some other people, but you can check out my user page to see if you think that you can trust me, and you can see why I want to become a sysop. I'd say that I know Wikipedia pretty well inside and out, and from what I've read on the Administrators page, the biggest requirements are to be a "known and trusted member of the community". By the way, how do you pronounce "Ilyanep"? User:Mike Storm
 * I'll sure keep an eye on you. And cool thing that you live close to me. Ilyanep (Talk) 04:02, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * That's weird. Someone changed my signature link to Mark Storm instead of Mike Storm. I changed it back, though. Mike Storm

Substubs: What do you think?
I think that I've created something that may be controversial: substubs. I saw a reference to it on Find or fix a stub, so I decided to make its existence official. The page I created is substub, and the boilerplate message that I created is Template:substub. The whole idea is that a substub is even smaller than a normal stub, and must be treated accordingly. I was just wondering what you thought of the idea (but please read substub first!), and because you're a sysop, I figured that I could trust you. Do you think I've created a monster, or is it a great idea? -- [[User:Mike Storm|Mike Storm Talk ]] 13:24, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * That seems like an awesome idea to me. If stubs need help, substubs need physical therapy :D. Ilyanep (Talk) 15:24, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot. If you support it, can you please sign your name here? It'd be great to have the support of a bureaucrat; you should see some of the criticism it's been getting on the talk page and on the Village Pump. By the way, you mentioned that you never really got past the basics of programming. I suggest, (ironically), trying the BASIC programming language. There are hundreds of different variations to try. Or you can try HTML, which is what webpages are coded in, and it's the easiest to learn. By the way, I've noticed a lot of stuff on the Wikipedia namespace that's code for updating things like automatically generated tables and such, like Shortpages/How to update. What is that, and how do I use it? [[User:Mike Storm|Mike Storm (Talk) ]] 15:47, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Yeah, no problem. I already know HTML, a very advanced knowledge. I also know some basics of C++ and VB. I have no clue how that autotable thing works, I've never tried it. I'll go take a look at it. Ilyanep (Talk) 18:20, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Thanks for signing your name. [[User:Mike Storm|Mike Storm (Talk) ]] 18:21, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

User contributions
I was just wondering if there's a way in Wikipedia to automatically count how many edits you've done? I know that I'm approaching 500, but it'd be great if there was a way to automatically count my edits. [[User:Mike Storm|Mike Storm (Talk) ]] 13:04, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Not that I know of. What I do is do 100 posts a page and go on and on, and when it show up empty, here's what I do. Let's say the first empty page is 800, I count all the edits on the 700 page, and then add it to 600. Let's say there's 53 edits on the 700 page, you have 653 edits. I'm pretty sure someone has written some sort of script, but you'd have to ask around. Leave me a note if you do find something. Ilyanep (Talk) 16:47, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:Ilyanep/Talk Archive 2


text:
Talk:Yeshu

Meaning of Pandera and Lack of Hebrew/Aramaic Original Text Quotations
I am curious if the Editors have read the original texts quoted in the Talmud? I'm sure I could grab a copy, but that the Aramaic is not present in the article seems to be a glaring omission. Afterall, a translation is already an intepretation. Also, if Pandera is spelled פנדרה/פנדרא or similar, perhaps its a suggestion to Pandora? Its uncommon for someone to be referred to as son/daughter or a female, but here the meaning would be loaded... if there is any basis for that interpretation... LFevas (talk) 22:08, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Relating Pandera to Pandora requires a showing that the people referring to Pandera have a familiarity with Greek mythology. Greek was prohibited reading among Jews for some time, which Talmud records.  It would require a showing why people concerned with Jewish law, history and culture would bother to refer to a particular character from Greek mythology.

4.248.222.74 (talk) 14:02, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
 * How do you know that reference wasn't added to the Torah at a later time, or referred to just one of the rabbinic communities? Not all Jews had the same Talmud, just as not all Jews had the same Torah translation, Syriac, Samaritan, Babylonian, Aramaic (Proto-Hebrew), Palestinian Aramaic. Hebrew fell out of favor from 600BCE-200CE. I've read entries on Wikipedia of at least one Jewish scholars who did learn Greek. Greek and Aramaic were the primary government languages. Until Rome took over around 20 CE??? Can you really imagine Jewish communities never having government contact? Someone knew Greek. And the most likely people would be the scholars. Jewish math systems could not even count grains of rice accurately. They would have had to have learned Egyptian, Aramaic, or Greek mathematical systems. And from 320BCE forward Greece seemed to control trade with Egypt. So Greek math and science seems more and more likely if there was a scholar who was Jewish in faith then he knew Greek in science, some level of fluency would be needed. DigDeep4Truth (talk) 20:49, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 28 January 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. No support for the proposal. Number  5  7  21:58, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Yeshu → Yeshu (name) – Redirect Yeshu to Jesus in the Talmud per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for "Yeshu", and name article consistency with Yeshua (name) (see related RM at Talk:Yeshua (disambiguation). Rationale: the article is a subset of Jesus in the Talmud issues, including (a) argument for possible evidence for existence of the name applying to someone else than the obvious Yeshu, (b) references to Jeshu the Nazarene in later Hebrew texts, and therefore this article largely a name-focused WikiProject Anthroponymy article about a personal name. See Yeshua (name). A move may be part of one possible solution to an uncomfortable problem; namely we have 2 articles covering the same subject Jesus in the Talmud, from 2 perspectives (1) acknowledging that "Jeshu the Nazarene" is the same "Jeshu the Nazarene" found in Tertullus' accusation of Paul in the Book of Acts, and various other sources (for obvious reasons Jesus of Nazareth is never referred to as Anointed/Christ/Messiah in Jewish sources) and (2) this article denying that "Jeshu the Nazarene" in the Talmud is the same "Jeshu the Nazarene" as Tertullus', and arguing the existence of another Jeshu - although in all other cases except Jesus of Nazareth the name Joshua/Jeshua is always written fully with the -ya (for -Yahweh) in Hebrew. This subject is sensitive, the discovery of the "Jeshu the Nazarene" passages in the Talmud was a key Christian pretext in the Disputation of Paris (1240) for persecution and murder for much of the middle ages. The charge (effectively our article 1) was denied by rabbi Yechiel of Paris (taking the view of our article 2, this article). So this a complicated and potentially sensitive topic, but one where input from listing it on WP:RM should attract editors who are neutral about the history. --Relisted.  Sunrise    (talk)  07:45, 5 February 2015 (UTC) In ictu oculi (talk) 01:21, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment, As far as I understand it, this is a charged topic in either way it may be presented. I tend to think that the current situation presents things most neutrally.  GregKaye 16:07, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

A Point
I have just read the Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a), and it doesn't say anything like that... I think that the next paragraph is a mistake and should be removed or someone should put another source.. "According to the Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) the name is generally believed to be an acronym for י =  Y imaḥ ש =  S hĕmo ו =  W ezikhro = meaning, May his name and memory be stricken out. --132.64.217.139 (talk) 18:28, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Fringe fork
I'm afraid that this article remains a fringe view contradicting the other article which represents academic unanimity. At some point it needs to be fixed. Who are the editors prepared to do that? In ictu oculi (talk) 11:01, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Yeshu


text: User talk:63.145.196.64

title: User talk:63.145.196.64


text:
Category:Audi

This category is for the Audi automobile marque of Germany, owned by the automotive industry concern Volkswagen Group.

title: Category:Audi


text:
Category:NSU vehicles

This category is for automobiles sold under the former NSU marque.

title: Category:NSU vehicles