text:
Talk:Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted

For a September 2004 deletion debate over this page see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Horizons: Empire of Istaria

Message Board
This entry doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. It is obviously biased and created by "fan bois" or is corporate insertion. Horizons has in no way radically changed the gaming industry or introduced anything uniquely radical to the genre. The only entry that belongs in the encyclopedia is the term "MMORPG" and perhaps games that had a drastic impact listed with a BRIEF description of what they offered to the industry. A game in itself in no way warrants a unique entry into the encyclopedia. This article is a sales pitch plain and simple. If the creators of Wikpedia have any desire to maintain this project's integrity as an educational tool it will simply remove this article. unsigned comment by User:4.37.96.130

 * The article doesn't say Horizons "radically changed the gaming industry". The article doesn't say Horizons "introduced anything uniquely radical to the genre". I'm genuinely curious to hear what is "obviously biased" about this article, but the only thing that you or ANY of the anon editors have contributed is vandalism and whining without explanation.

 * Now, if you honestly believe that only games that had a drastic impact deserve Wikipedia articles, then fair enough, that is a reasonable opinion, and one that is probably shared by a number of editors here, although I think a minority. We'll see what the consensus is on Votes for deletion. —Stormie 23:27, Sep 1, 2004 (UTC)

Good job on reverting back to Stormey's version, it sounds like a bloody company press release. Palad 20:03, 20 Aug 2004 (EST)

My apologies for stepping into this discussion but I think it will be difficult to achieve a "neutral" article about Horizons, especially when members of a fansite are providing the information about this rather controversial game. My suggestion would be to only keep the first sentence of the current article (i.e. remove all but the first sentence) and instead provide links to the game's website and to the two major fansites at Tazoon and IGN. Make an editorial comment about the fact that both these fansites have commercial ties with the game company (being the "official" fansites for resp. the North-American and the European player community) and thus are moderated to provide a somewhat positive outlook onto the game. After that the Wikipedia article should stay locked for the next few months.

 * Pardon me for being cynical but any suggestion from an anon IP after being bullied into protecting the page is questionable. Especially when it recommends protecting the page for months.  Wikipedia does not normally protect a page against other opinions.  Only against revert wars and vandalism.  Then only for a cooling period. -  Tεx  τ  urε  15:29, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * Easy, i do not know how to insert my IP. --62.131.88.12 15:36, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC) (Might it be that these things do not always work correctly when using Netscape?) I usually would not recommend locking an article for so long too but I know both the fans and the people critical to Horizons, and believe me, both are quite used to rabid flamewars.

 * No, you need to log in, then we can talk properly. btw, wtf is with Fiend? Dunc_Harris|☺ 22:39, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Has the vandalism stopped now? --Marco 07:27, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

(Old messages that were lost in revert. --Marco 14:34, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC))
 * that's disgusting, but seriously, I need to make some gramatical changes... Why can't I edit the article??
 * Please list it in the section for changes once the article gets unlocked. --Marco 14:43, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Can anyone revert this discussion to a previous version before the idiot who deleted the text and put the top link in arrived?   No.
 * Done --Marco 14:34, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I think the funniest thing to me is that every time I've seen the article it's either neutral (or close), or been sabaotaged to be a blatant bash of Horizons. I like the current version. Well laid out, and neutral. IMO the issue here is not with the fans editing it, it's with the anti-fans defacing it at every opportunity. Fans can understand neutrality. Vandals can't. [Additional comments] The link 'The history of Horizons' leads to a highly suspect source of information. How can you people claim a NPOV, then link to a place that is so obviously one-sided? -Theurgist 10:56, 6 Aug 2004 (GMT)
 * The lock does not endorse a version, it just gets locked to the current version of the page which happened to include that link. This will be added to the change list and if biased it will be removed once the lock clears. --Marco 10:31, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The version recently created by 63.169.96.226 seems very simular to the one that was removed because of !NPOV. Rollback? --Marco 16:49, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Disregard that, this new page rocks --Marco 17:10, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Would adding thier to-do quee be NPOV violation and why? --Marco 12:18, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Adding it like this would probably be fine: "The developers have stated that they are aiming to implement these new features in the future: ". --Kukuman 12:28, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * I think your version is better --Marco 12:58, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I like the last edit you did Kukaman. You mentioned lots of financial info, yet you appear to have forgotten to put just about any information about the game? Have you played it yourself? If not I don't feel you are qualified to write anything about Horizons. If you've gone by other reviewers information I've read some writeups that gave me the distinct impression the reviewer spent all of 10 minutes in-game, if that. User: Theurgist 11:56, 5 August 2004 (GMT)

 * I have added what I know about the game. I did play it for a short period of time in January. That is why I did not include more information about the game - I either forgot it, or what I already knew is out of date. I am just as "qualified" as you are to edit this article. --Kukuman 11:17, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * Never mind that I've been playing since December.. lol.. Anyway, The only edits I have done are to fix the link people keep vandalising, and, like the edit I'm doing now is to fix some totally unrelated text some moron has added in  User: Theurgist 12:38P, 5 August 2004 (GMT)... Hmm, someone beat me to it

 * Playing a short while at Janurari can give a lot of missleading info as the game have improved a lot since then. (Vanaondo, Ice Shard)
 * I know, that's why I didn't add more about the game :) Feel free to add updated info about the game, but PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE remember that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, NOT a place to advertise or promote your favorite game. When adding information remember to abide by the neutral point of view. --Kukuman 11:58, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Easier said than done, but we'll try. --Marco 12:11, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

To the new users editing this page - Welcome to Wikipedia. I've noticed this article has some serious problems with style and point-of-view. Please familiarize yourselves with Manual_of_Style before making any more significant edits to this page. --Kukuman 10:40, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Any chance of banning the clown @ 24.96.124.234? --Marco 09:53, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * I don't know seems more like a misguided newbie to wikipedia his last edit and i quote:

"Horizons is a MMORPG which OH WHO CARES

You people are freaking desperate if you're trying to advertise your game on Wikipedia.

Have a fabulous day!

Love,

Biffa Bacon" so it seems as if he/she sees it as an advert and is removing it and leaving this message behind, i left a message on his/her talk page explaining that comments belong here and if he/she thinks its an advert to register then post it on vfd or leave a message on my talk page and i'll list it of vfd for him/her if him/her does not wish to register an account.  lets wait and see if more vandalism occurs first.--Ryan B.  (Talk, contributions)  19:27, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Previus work is: Inserting irrelevant text, like the text about platypus, and changing links to point to other pages. Now that this has been processed, can you please move the vandalism entry to the appropriate place as I don't know where that is yet. --Marco 19:48, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Negative. this information is being updated by fans at http://www.tazoon.com/releaseforums/tm.asp?m=374598. User: theurgist 10:51, 5 Aug 2004 (GMT)

Is this a corporate insertion? Wetman 09:27, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The text for December 16, 2004 should probably be changed, it says yesterday in the text, so it would make more sense if it was for Dec 15th. I don't think I should edit it myself. FatHed 04:11, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Notes from Wiki outsider: 1. Crimson-dawn website, as well as its database, seems to be hacked. Each visit redirects to Youtube or porn images/videos. Suggestion to delete these two links. 2. As an alternative link an "istaria.wikia.com" may be used. It is Istaria's wiki, a bit outdated sometimes, but at the moment -the best source of information. 3. Newest update "Peace of Istaria", can't remember exact date, but it most up-do-date. Suggestion to use this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.119.150.243 (talk) 08:40, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Vandalism
I like it that there are 3 entries of vandalism today, all of which points to this article (see sarcasm). Grow up please! When we started the article was a stub and we intended to make a good description of it and highlight some of it's features. On our first try we went a bit overboard but that does not make it fine for others to go overboard in the opposite direction. Articles should have a nuetral point of view, which we try to have. If there is anything that does not conform to that please feel free to correct it without biasing it in the opposite direction. Do not add FUD as that will be edited out right away. If we disagree on something please bring it up here prior to turning it into an editwar.

That is, you change it once, and if it is not biased we leave it. If it is biased we change it back, if you still disagree move the discussion here so that we can resolve it in a matter that is not the side that reverts the most wins. --Marco 19:22, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

To the members of Tazoon.com editing this article: I realize you guys like this game but I have to remind you again to keep a neutral point of view. I have to say I'm not impressed with the newest version of this article. It reads more like a commercial than an actual encyclopedia article. Remember that Wikipedia is not a place to advertise your favorite game. --Kukuman 22:48, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * We (at least the faction I belong to) try give it an accurate description, but it's hard to do any progress if we need to spend all our time removing jibberish. While we may need some help on this, inserting random crap is not making it better, correcting, rewording and removing faulty lines does. --Marco 07:02, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Forgot to mention, lots of gratitude for trying to improve the article rather than destroying it. --Marco 07:22, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for the protect Angela. I say we protect this for about 24 hours until the wave of idiots calms down and the intelligent dedicated new editors get settled in. --Kukuman 00:40, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * ^-- --Marco 07:02, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Neutral point of view
We are having some difficulties about keeping a neutral point of view it would seem. So please help us. If you spot something biased, correct it, remove it or mark it with the starting tag [BIAS] and ending tag [/BIAS]. --Marco 07:19, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I followed your suggestion and added [BIAS] and {/BIAS] tags to the article. --62.131.88.12 21:59, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I removed it, please use for this, which expands to:

Thanks. 24.123.221.2 21:59, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * I removed the tag so the article won't show up in the NPOV disputes category. -- Kjkolb 07:57, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, but after getting a private message from what looks to be a moderator (User: Frazzydee) accusing me of vandalism and threatening to block my IP address I will no longer contribute to this discussion. Please continue advertising the game as much as you can for whatever reason you guys might have. ;) And my apologies, I didn't know that having an opinion is considered vandalism around here. Over and out. --62.131.88.12 04:21, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Marco suggested that if you spotted something biased, that you "correct it, remove it or mark it with the starting tag [BIAS] and ending tag [/BIAS]". It's hard to see how wrapping the entire article in a pair of "[BIAS]"/"[/BIAS]" tags is to be interpreted as anything other than mischief. Or do you maintain that it is biased for us to claim that "Horizons: Empire of Istaria is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game" and that "http://www.istaria.com/" is the website? —Stormie 05:17, Aug 27, 2004 (UTC)

After reading this page, I agree with some of the comments on the talk page. This article reads like an advertisement for the game, listing all the positive features, but failing to give any mention to the negative aspects of the current state of the game. Listing the good things about Horizons is ok, but I don't think everything bad about the game should be ignored. Every game has its bad points, and they should be listed to keep the article fair and balanced. And I don't mean dredging up information about past ownership and other things. I mean current things, like bugs and issues with each feature that is listed in a positive light in the article. It shouldn't be too hard to give a brief mention of the bad things about the game along with the good. Gopher65 16:12, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Horizons Wiki
Horizons Wiki

Spelling of game name
According to the game's website, the title of the game is Horizons: Empire of Istaria, not Horizons: Empire s of Istaria. Should the page be renamed? -- Andrew Maiman 17:56, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Please do if possible, I have no clue on how to do it. --Marco 17:57, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * When the page is unprotected drop me a message and I'll create a new page, migrate the content/discussions and then delete the old page. I'll watch the page and come back and unprotect it in a day or so, unless you want it done sooner. Manning 19:40, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * I've moved it. Information on how to properly move a page is at m:Help:Renaming (moving) a page. Guanaco 23:02, Aug 8, 2004 (UTC)

 * Thanks. I knew how to move it, but couldn't since it was locked.  The name of the game needs to be changed in the first paragraph, as well, but the article is still locked.  Andrew Maiman 23:41, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Gamersinfo blurb
The part "where the game is at" that was at the end of the Gamersinfo URL sounds like a plug or it's advertising. As such, it was removed. Peter1968 11:55, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Blight restored, new owner, rosy future etc...
To you IP addresses: 66.190.194.217, 116.14.43.164 that keep adding stuff, please bone up on sourcing stuff first. If you claim these things, prove it with references. It's not hard to do. Don't just make unreferenced statements, as they will be deleted. Peter1968 00:40, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I rewrote the last one and put in the link where the information comes from. I tried doing it with the citation code but it doesn't work (probably because there is no Sources heading and I don't know how to make one) so I just put in the link for now.  Darkwriter 12:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Timeline
No one seems to either read or edit this page any more, so I'm probably just talking to myself here, but I don't think the "timeline" section is appropriate. Or at least it is used incorrectly. It is mostly filled with minor, no-longer-valid information, and it doesn't site any references. I wouldn't even know where to begin referencing most of that stuff. I've followed this game for a long time, so I know much of it is true, but how do I show that? We can't just say "this is true because I saw it happen!" There has to be proof of the statements made. I think most of this section should be deleted or, where references (and validity) can be produced, bundled into a "History" section. If no one disagrees or bothers commenting within a few weeks I'll go ahead and do it:). Gopher65 03:17, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I have this article on my watchlist, but I mainly look out for vandalism and the like. Go ahead and do what you think is necessary to enhance it. Be bold! Peter1968 09:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I'd have to say that some sort of timeline is necessary to present such complicated information about a game like this. How about looking for references for it instead.  --TatharNuar 02:36, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I just ended up on this page, and the timeline portion looks really bad. I don't see a reason for it at all, and I can't see anyone actually reading any of it. 99.14.219.95 (talk) 06:51, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If you think it's bad or wrong, feel free to edit it (be bold in other words). As for nobody reading it, how would you know? Peter Greenwell (talk) 03:10, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Was bold. I replaced the Timeline section with the Recent Developments section. I left the last 5 events in the timeline, since they are the most recent listed (although not the most recent updates to the game... and there is a miniexpansion due to be released soon), and they had sources. I think the article reads smoother now. Gopher65 talk 01:19, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Rewrite
Alrighty, I rewrote most of this page. In fact, everything except the Timeline. I actually rewrote the timeline too (as a "Development History" section), but I could hardly find a single freaking reference for anything that happened during the development of this game, so I left it out for now. If anyone can help with that post a few links here.

Also, as you can see in the article, there were a few things that I couldn't find easy references for, except on forums, which I don't consider reliable sources because they can be changed or deleted without warning. Any help would be nice. And grammar checking too of course. I think I caught most of the big grammatical errors already, but it is darned hard to self edit.

Any comments? Is this change good or bad so far? Gopher65 (talk) 02:59, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It's all good. Peter1968 (talk) 04:23, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Bah, sorry about all the updates there. Everytime I was about to go do something else I noticed another little error I'd made.Gopher65 (talk) 03:40, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

 * "..in departure from virtually all other games on the market in any genre, Sslik (an asexual non-anthropomorphic reptilian humanoid)"

 * That sounds like a bit of an exaggeration to me, reptilians, lizard-men, Draconians, etc. aren't exactly a super-rare archetype. How about Morrowind's Argonians? --Stormie (talk) 05:28, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Hmmmm true. I guess I should change that to "other fantasy MMOGs" which have an annoying tendency to have nothing but anamorphic non-human characters. I don't mind the occasional cat with humanish boobs, but common, lizards? Since when do lizards suckle their young?Gopher65 (talk) 14:29, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Catmen and lizardmen are a trope in fantasy games, MMOG or otherwise. You'd be hard-pressed trying to sell the Sslik's uniqueness. If you want to compare the depth of the Sslik, to say, the Argonians, or the Saris to the Khajiit, the Horizons archetypes will come off a very poor second best for backstory, culture, etc. I'm sure a comparison to the Vah'Shir/Kerrans and Iksar respectively doesn't need to be made. Apart from this, the article is fine, as far as I can see. Peter1968 (talk) 15:13, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

 * kk, I'll remove that bit Gopher65 (talk) 15:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Good rewrite Gopher. Its very straight-forward and non-biased now.  Very nice.  Btw, one difference may be in the skeleton that is used.  Most non-human races in games use the standard human skeleton.  Notice how they stand upright, the tail just hanging like it would if attached to a human spine.  Sslik, Satyr and Saris in Horizons have their own base skeleton that is separate from the human skeleton.  It is designed to suggest a more animalistic look and support/balance a true tail in all its movement and stuff. Wjmurdick (talk) 13:42, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Differences between Horizons and other games section
Comes across as a plug, and stresses the fact that Horizons is "different" because it offers a playable dragon race. Most of these features listed aren't unique at all (and admitted as much in the article) and it serves no real purpose I can see except to advertise the game's appeal. Peter1968 (talk) 21:16, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

 * I don't necessarily disagree with what you said, but I was just going off the style used by other MMOG articles on Wikipedia. If Horizons shouldn't have sections detailing aspects of gameplay, then neither should WoW. Personally I'm loathe to go and delete anything in that game's page though, even if some of it is unencyclopediatic. That's a good way to get yourself cyberstalked from here to eternity.

 * If you're just talking about the name of the section, then *shrug*, change it to something else.
 * Nope, what was written there was the issue. Descriptions of the gameplay are all well and good, but when you are presented with a non-objective thing like "comparisons between us and them", is when the neutrality is called into question. In the perfect Wikipedia world, such comparisons shouldn't be made. As for WoW, no I wouldn't touch it either, but there are plenty that do monitor it. Peter1968 (talk) 06:10, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

 * I have a question: why is that person going and deleting the "citation needed" factcheck tags from the criticism section, then saying "I did it cause there weren't any citations"? That doesn't seem logical to me:P. Gopher65 (talk) 03:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * 76.188.120.24 you mean? Probably a fan who doesn't want to see the article on their favourite game portrayed in anything less than glowing terms. I've corrected these changes where I've seen them. Peter1968 (talk) 06:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

 * As noted on the WoW talkpage, Morrowind was a Featured Article, and it would probably serve as a good example for what is and isn't allowed in articles of this type. Any suggestions as to how the deleted section could be revised so as not to appear "plugish"?Gopher65 (talk) 03:31, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The Morrowind (and the Oblivion article) would be good templates. Both went through some very intense changes to bring them into line with Wikipeida's policies, re: the ones on this place not being a gameguide, a walkthrough, a fansite, fictional notability, etc. So yeah, they'd be good models. Peter1968 (talk) 06:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Settlements...
Is this expansion in the works or did it die in the projection stage? Peter1968 (talk) 13:04, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

 * It died with Tulga. Is it still listed somewhere other than the Timeline? I'm going to have to go through that timeline at some point I suppose. Not looking forward to that. Gopher65 (talk) 23:34, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Horizons- Empire of Istaria logo.jpg
Image:Horizons- Empire of Istaria logo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 23:45, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Just added one. Peter1968 (talk) 00:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Renaming of Game By VIRTRIUM
as VIRTRIUM LLC has recently renamed Horizons: Empire of Istaria to Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted

i have created an article for the new name with a redirect to here, but am not sure if i should leave like that or move this article to the new name, does anyone have an opinion on this (Firebladed (talk) 10:54, 17 April 2008 (UTC))

I think ill default to the position of this being a uncontroversial move if no one actively objects (Firebladed (talk) 15:56, 17 April 2008 (UTC))

Renaming of Game By VIRTRIUM
as VIRTRIUM LLC has recently renamed Horizons: Empire of Istaria to Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted

i have created an article for the new name with a redirect to here, but am not sure if i should leave like that or move this article to the new name, does anyone have an opinion on this (Firebladed (talk) 10:54, 17 April 2008 (UTC))
 * Redirect done. Peter1968 (talk) 11:54, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

i don`t think you moved the page but rather just copied and pasted content which leave incorrect history (Firebladed (talk) 13:01, 17 April 2008 (UTC))

Requested move
The game has been renamed by VIRTRIUM LLC the owner (see press release in article references)

was going to move myself, if no objections, but appears to me someone tried copy and paste of content move, as logs showed no mention of a move so now I cannot as the redirect page has a history

(Firebladed (talk) 13:30, 17 April 2008 (UTC))

Screenshots
I've sent a request to the Virtrium team asking them to place some screenshots into the public domain. That way I can use the screenies here without the hassle of having to go through a Fair Use tug-of-war with the copyright nutballs on Commons;). We'll see if they respond or not. If they don't, I'll find some screenies from somewhere and I'll try and Fair Use them. Gopher65 talk  01:23, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Content Updates Suggestion
I have a conflict of interest with this page, but would like to suggest a section called Content Updates. Below is a non-descriptive list of updates released by the company Virtrium. This list format

Below are updates released by Virtrium, with references to either the community site posts describing the content of the updates or stylized summaries of the update.

Content Updates

The following major content updates have been released by the Virtrium development team.
 * "The Crystalshaper 2013" (October 15, 2013)

 * "Spring Festival 2013" (May 29, 2013)

 * "Gnomekindle 2013" (February 2013)
 * "November Content Update" (November 12, 2012)

 * "Spring Update 2012" (April 10, 2012)

 * "November 2011" (November 29, 2011)

 * "September 2011" (September 6, 2011)
 * "Dragon Rite of Passage" (June 22, 2010)

 * "Scourge of the Skulks" (February 10, 2010)
 * "Dralnok's Doom" (July 1, 2009)

 * "Pax Istaria" (July 29, 2008)

 * "Tasty Treats" (March 24, 2008)

 * "Gnomekindle 2007" (December 12, 2007)

Riktor75 (talk) 15:57, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
 * "Hammer's Rest" (October 16, 2007)
 * I feel that a simple list would be appropriate, but using press releases as references strikes me as subtle spam. I've also asked others to comment at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games. Cheers! Woodroar (talk) 04:54, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
 * As release dates and the name of the release are indisputable facts, the company providing the update would seem like a good source - possibly better than other sources that could introduce typographical error. Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that other details, such as a description of the update, could be considered indisputable or appropriate to make for someone with a COI. It's worth noting that the following pages don't have referenced update lists or have referenced update lists that refer to company press pages / development pages:
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Heroes
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_rings_online
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_and_dragons_online
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_Online
 * Riktor75 (talk) 15:27, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Terao Tar (talk) 19:18, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not a Wikipedia pro as I'm used to work with wikimedia. I thought why not use the, would give a clearly arranged list. I would not add all those links into the reference list, else these links and information is twice on one page. Maybe this would fit better, else I can edit a table with a summary of each content update, but this would take some time.

 * What I'd like to add to the reference lists are these the two most important sources of information concerning Istaria:

Terao Tar (talk) 19:18, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I reinstated the content update titles along with a simple cite to the Istaria homepage, that should provide a clear reference and avoids the whole spam issue entirely by not linking to the press releases. I removed the other links as they aren't reliable sources. Woodroar (talk) 06:02, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 10 external links on Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080416162118/http://www.istaria.com/news.php?nws_id=22 to http://www.istaria.com/news.php?nws_id=22
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090421060634/http://www.istaria.com/races.php to http://www.istaria.com/races.php
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070203224037/http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/384/384428p1.html to http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/384/384428p1.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070711003138/http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/436/436206p1.html to http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/436/436206p1.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070203223804/http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/375/375316p1.html to http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/375/375316p1.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070622134739/http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/373/373927p2.html to http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/373/373927p2.html
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title: Talk:Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted


text:
Talk:Pyotr Stolypin

Assassination Section Plagiarism
I have a strong suspicion that the assassination section has copied text almost word for word from Orlando Figes' book on the Russian revolution "A People's Tragedy". I've read this book and recognise the phrasing. I no longer have a copy of it to check what parts are breaching wikipedia standards, but if anyone has a copy then could they change it? It would be a shame to have to rewrite the entire section. Blankfrackis (talk) 17:14, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Leftist
"Leftist terrorist groups" should be changed to "leftist organizations." Whether they were actually committing terrorist acts is tenuous at best and under no circumstances is such a claim NPOV. - ?
 * Assassinations were facts and "terror" was the word, borrowed from French Revolution, not from George W. Bush. Mikkalai 07:55, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * You say - "the phrase is specifically about groups who performed assassinations, "terror" is from their vocabulary,and they were terrorists by fact, not by POV". I think it's pretty obvious that the word "terrorist groups" in the context that it's used in the article insinuates that ALL the organizations of the era which were battling against the Russian monarchy used terrorist tactics, which is quite simply not true. The vast majority used strikes - or more generally, urged insurrection - which is not a "terrorist tactic". To suggest that even a small fraction of the organizations of the time were utilizing assassinations to accomplish their goals would be patently ridiculous. It is also quite fallacious to suggest that the tactics used by organizations that had support as widespread as the Russian progressives could utilize "terror" in the same sense that Robespierre prescribed it - the former used it (very rarely) to attempt to establish a popular leftist regime, whereas the latter used it to coerce the populace into subservience. The motives (and the origins) are completely different, which is why the use of the word "terrorist groups" cannot be considered as anything other than utterly biased and not at all NPOV. - ?
 * But, if he was using the word terrorism, then its alright. besides, some people who believed they were terrorists might think that saying "leftist organizations" would not be NPOV. it would be on the side of the terrorists. In the future, please sign your name--Bagel7 02:37, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Many leftist organisations of the time e.g. the Populists, Socialist-Revolutionaries etc. were directly involved in political assassinations of government officials, members of the royal family etc. This counts as terrorism by any normal definition. Certainly there were some leftist groups such as the Mensheviks who were involved in peaceful strikes rather than terrorism, but they were not the main target of Stolypin's law-and-order measures. The term "leftist terrorist groups" is perfectly accurate. Walton monarchist89 09:16, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The word "organisation" doesn't imply anything which would breach NPOV standards. It's a neutral word, calling Al-Qaeda an "organisation" doesn't say anything about whether it's a terrorist group. Calling them "freedom fighters" would breach NPOV standards but not "organisations". Blankfrackis (talk) 01:12, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Rasputin and St. Petersburg
In 1911 he ordered Rasputin out of St. Petersburg, and was obeyed. this was followed by an investigation by Lukyanov, minister of religion. The empress wasn't very fond of him after this point. And continued to support Rasputin.

Rasputin also prophesied his death the day previously.

The fall of the Russian Monarchy Pares 1939 Sethwoodworth 01:36, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Is this really correct?
Was Stolypin really interior minister "under Ivan Goremykin" (section: Governor and Interior Minister) and in office 1904-1905 (according to the succession box)? If the latter is correct, shouldn't be "under Sergei Witte" who was Chairman of the Committee of Ministers 1903-1905. But according to List of Ministers of Interior of Imperial Russia Stolypin was Ministers of Interior 1906-1911 and preceeded by Pyotr Nikolayevich Durnovo. About Durnovo you can read that he was Minister of interior 1905-1906 and succeeded by Stolypin. My conclusion is that Stolypin was both Prime minister and Minister of Interior 1906-1911, thus not "under Ivan Goremykin". Correct?--79.138.209.66 (talk) 22:25, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * He served under Gorymkin from April to July 1906. john k (talk) 14:47, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Was Stolypin really a keen taxidermist - can someone verify this?? - No reference in the article —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrewbiden (talk • contribs) 18:36, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Bias
Some of this page reads like a cheerleader. "Maliciously misrepresented"? "grossly misleading"? I think maybe it should be cleaned up by someone with more of an interest in conveying the facts about Stolypin, rather than trying to rehabilitate his reputation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.130.39.203 (talk) 02:01, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Date of Death
The information box conflicts with what is said in the second-to-last section which claims he died on Sep. 14. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, Stolypin died on the 18th. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vopz (talk • contribs) 01:38, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Possible Vandalism?
I'm no expert on this period, but I found suspect the suggestion that Stolypin used castration to keep the peasantry in line. There is no mention of this in the only source provided for this part of the text. Anyone help here?

Separately, the allegations that his daughters pushed their brother off a bridge also raised questions? Nandt1 (talk) 00:22, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Reviewing the article's history, these unsourced claims (and a few more, such as his having allegedly trained with the ballet but withdrawn after injuries) were all inserted during a brief editing bout by an unregistered editor with no other history on Wikipedia. I feel justified in treating them as overwhelmingly likely to have been vandalism pure and simple. If any user wishes to provide reliable sources to back up any of these claims, please be my guest! Nandt1 (talk) 16:26, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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Birthplace
Stolypin seems to have been born in Dresden on 14 April 1862, and was later baptized on 24 May in the Russian Orthodox Church in the same city.
 * – The puzzling formulation "seems to have been" only raises questions, and the absence of any explanation as to why he was born in Germany raises more questions.
 * I don't really read Russian, but I know enough to see that the Russian Wikipedia article states flatly that he was born in Дрезден, Саксония (Dresden, Saxony). Further, the German Wiki article notes, Sein Vater, General Arkadi Dmitrijewitsch Stolypin (1821–1899), war zeitweise als russischer Gesandter in Deutschland tätig; so wurde Stolypin in Dresden geboren ("His father, General Arkady Dimitrievich Stolypin (1821-1899), was at the time a Russian envoy [representative] in Germany; thus, Stolypin was born in Dresden.")
 * I've edited the sentence above to incorporate this information. Sca (talk) 21:35, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Huh?
Stolypin was shot twice, once in the arm and once in the chest by Dmitry Bogrov, a leftist revolutionary, trying to rehabilitate himself.
 * – Really? In Russia one rehabilitates oneself by killing high-ranking government officials? Clause deleted. Sca (talk) 21:45, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Screen portrayal
I have added a new section on Screen portrayals, kicking off with Eric Porter's appearance as Stolypin in the British film Nicholas and Alexandra. I am allowing and encouraging the addition of any other portrayals that may have been in films produced by other countries and possibly by actors who may be better known.

Legacy Section Plagiarism
Almost all of the third paragraph in the Legacy section (beginning "There remains doubt, however") is lifted from Michael Lynch's "Reaction and Revolution: Russia 1894-1924" (the section of the book is "Difficulties confronting Stolypin", which in my 4th edition book is pages 47-49). Minor phrasing and order have been changed, but is verbatim the same except for that. (Sentences the same or only one word from the text include: "The deep conservatism from the mass of peasants made them slow to respond" and "Most peasants were unwilling to leave the security of the commune for the uncertainty of individual farming"). I do not know exactly what rewrites would have to be done, hopefully this catches the eye of someone more versed in these things. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.237.247.169 (talk) 20:07, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Pyotr Stolypin


text:
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title: User:Sabre23t/ODP editall


text:
Talk:STS-69

Comments
Update needed. LanceBarber (talk) 23:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Alien spacecraft
What about the alien spacecraft, which is described by author William Kliner? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.229.224.129 (talk) 13:13, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

title: Talk:STS-69


text:
Talk:Green sauce

Apicius
The Greek-influenced Roman cookbooks attributed to Apicius may have a green sauce. Wetman 06:28, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Capitalization
Why is this capitalized? -- Pekinensis 21:04, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Tex Mex Green Sauce
Sour cream and guacamole? Isn't that simply....incorrect? The green sauce salsa verde I've always known was colored by tomatillos and green chilis

Italian salsa verde
Italian salsa verde often has hard-boiled eggs chopped up in it as a filler agent.72.78.154.193 (talk) 12:30, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Sounds one of the points that are in common with the version in frankfurt and make it prpable that this is of italian origin. Its however no sort of mayoneses. --Polentario (talk) 19:08, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't think Gremolata should be mentioned here. Gremolata isn't a type of Salsa Verde in the same way that Persillade isn't a type of salsa verde, nor is Chimichurri - they're other other parsley-bsed condiments, that share one primary ingredient and are all literally green sauces. Basil is also sometimes added to Salsa Verde, but I don't think anybody would suggest Pesto or pistou - both green sauces - to be the same. Or British Parsley Sauce... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.48.30 (talk) 10:09, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Taco Bell Reference
Taco Bell and Del Taco? Isn't this a common condiment of many restaurants and not just these two? I seems to me this reference should be removed Drewsachs (talk) 23:25, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Caribbean Green Sauce
Many Caribbean countries including Trinidad & Tobago, Jamaica and St. Lucia have a green sauce made from cilantro or the longer variety culantro. Should Caribbean be added here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.104.179.72 (talk) 00:58, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

 * Please add that information to the article, preferably with WP:Reliable sources. Thanks, --Macrakis (talk) 13:25, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Germany
In germany exist about 5+ different types each for a different region, not one for Kassel, but a lot for Hamburg, Munich, Cologne and surely Frankfurt and some other smaller regions with slight differences in Recipe. Source: I'm a german cook, traveled a lot, got a big family so i learned a lot from earlier generations ;) //edit The Maudny Tursdy isnt called "green thursday" in germany cause of the green sauce but because of an "unwritten law" to eat no meat/fish at that day, only vegetables. Mostly youll hear that ppl eat traditionally spinach at that day. @ACHOWAT if you dont know anything about an article stop keeping ppl from correcting and enhancing it.
 * Is the compromise language to your liking? -Achowat (talk) 20:57, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

spanish salsa verde
It is cited in the introduction. No references? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.49.62.225 (talk) 17:58, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Grüne Soße Festival
There's also an annual festival every year in Frankfurt am Maine. http://www.gruene-sosse-festival.de/ 178.76.161.142 (talk) 17:10, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

Rabelais
In Gargantua and Pantagruel much is made of the alleged properties of green sauce. Does this deserve a mention? Xxanthippe (talk) 07:23, 26 December 2016 (UTC).

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Salsa verde (Mexico) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 11:48, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Copied from Articles for deletion/Green sauce for reference
Individually, there are many notable green sauces; however, I do not think the topic of green sauces is notable per the criteria of WP:GNG and WP:LISTN. This article is currently unsourced, and consists purely of original research; the "history" section in particular appears to be speculative. I did find a few possible discussions of green sauces (1 2) but they do not strike me as reliable enough sources to imply notability. BenKuykendall (talk) 21:05, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Withdrawn by nominator per sources found below. The article still needs work, but at this point it is clear that WP:GNG is met. BenKuykendall (talk) 18:42, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. BenKuykendall (talk) 21:05, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 21:13, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Italy-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 21:13, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of France-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 21:14, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Mexico-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 21:14, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

 * Keep The article has been around over a decade, and there is indeed a coherent subject here, the green herb sauces. The German-leaning history section is very inadequate - this was huge as a basic sauce in medieval cooking, especially served with fish. Of course recipes are few and far between.  Obviously references needed - searching for cookery refs is a nightmare as all you get is recipes.  Note that none of the European sauces have articles, I was rather shocked to see: the Spanish and Italian salsa verde, the French sauce verte - the former goes to the Mexican one (it should be a disam) and I'll redirect the French one (currently a redlink) now.  So this is all we have on this major sauce family, and it should be kept and improved.   I think a firmer distinction should be made with the South American ones, and British mint sauce.  Medieval refs, all to books:, , , , , Johnbod (talk) 22:08, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

 * Strong keep Though I certainly agree that the current article needs work, it is the only article right now on the Italian salsa verde, which is unquestionably as notable as the Mexican salsa verde, which has its own article (because it is made of tomatillos, not herbs). The Italian salsa verde is important in Lombardy, Piedmont, and Tuscany. I've added a few refs. The French Renaissance sauce is probably the same thing in some real sense, though the modern mayonnaise-based version isn't. I agree, too, that additional research is needed to determine whether the German green sauce is related to the Italian one, but simply on the basis of generic similarity, it seems to belong together with the Italian one, at least until the article becomes too big -- which it certainly isn't yet. There is an important historical tradition of green sauces. Taillevent, for example, discusses green sauces.
 * PS, I would guess that in fact the various European green sauces do have a common origin, but we'll need to find some sources for that. --Macrakis (talk) 22:50, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Green sauces are treated together in reliable sources. Without much effort, I found, for example, Susan Volland's Mastering Sauces: The Home Cook's Guide to New Techniques for Fresh Flavors, W.W. Norton, 2015, which has an entire section on green sauces. James Peterson's comprehensive Sauces: Classical and Contemporary Sauce Making (multiple editions) talks about green sauces, including the English green sauces which are the ancestor's of today's mint sauce.
 * Wikipedia policy is not to delete articles which are incomplete, but to improve them. This article unquestionably needs improvement, but certainly not deletion! --Macrakis (talk) 22:33, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * PPS The Oxford Companion to Food has an article on greensauce (ref added to article; also an OED ref), and gives the German Grüne Sosse as "an example of what is essentially the same thing in other cuisines". I hope that's definitive as to the notability of green sauce as a category. --Macrakis (talk) 23:32, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

 * Keep It's obviously a broad topic and that's fine. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:28, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep, of course, the article can be improved but the topic is relevant.--Pampuco (talk) 19:16, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the withdrawal! I'll copy this useful discussion to the article talk, for future reference. Johnbod (talk) 21:11, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

"Salsa verde/TEMP" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Salsa verde/TEMP. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 July 4 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 14:20, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

"Greensauce"
Does anyone really write it as one word? It seems unlikely. Other wikis are taking this word "greensauce" from us, so we should eliminate it if there's really no reliable source for it. Andrew Dalby 20:19, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I can't find "greensauce" in the OED, but Alan Davidson (food writer) spelt it as one word, I must admit. I wish I knew why. Yes, he's a good source. Andrew Dalby 20:52, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The Oxford Companion to Food (both 1st and 2nd editions) -- which is generally very reliable for food issues -- uses the single-word form as its main title for the topic (and it is given as a footnote for the first paragraph). It has also been used by the Silver Palate Good Times Cookbook, The Cook's Encyclopedia, Paul Freedman's Out of the East, The Constance Spry Cookery Book, etc. But Google ngrams shows that it has never been common, and OED doesn't even mention the one-word spelling. --Macrakis (talk) 20:59, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for checking so fully. That's certainly a good range of reliable sources. Andrew Dalby 15:39, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
 * The wonder of Google Books....
 * But overall, it is still pretty uncommon. --Macrakis (talk) 20:22, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Green sauce


text:
User:Fropuff/Drafts/Miscellaneous

''Miscellaneous drafts. To be merged with their respective articles when complete.''

=Topological manifold=

Additional structure
Topological manifolds are much more useful often more tractable when given some additional structure. Much of the study of topological manifolds is, therefore, devoted to understanding conditions under which such structures exist and are unique.

=Euclidean space=

Affine structure
To study Euclidean geometry one does not really need to know the location of the origin in Rn, any point is just as good as any other. This leads to a construction in mathematics known the affine space underlying any given vector space.

Group-theoretic perspective

 * General linear group
 * Orthogonal group
 * Affine group
 * Euclidean group

=CW complex=

A closed cell is a topological space homeomorphic to a ball (a sphere plus interior), or equally to a simplex, or a cube in n dimensions. Only the topological nature matters: but one does want to keep track of the subspace on the 'surface' (the sphere that bounds the ball), and its complement, the interior points. An open cell is the interior of a closed cell.

CW complexes are defined inductively by gluing together cells of successively higher dimensions. The complex constructed at the nth stage is called the n-skeleton. One proceeds as follows:

 * 1) Start with a discrete set X0 of 0-cells (i.e. points). This is the 0-skeleton.
 * 2) Inductively glue a collection of (n+1)-dimensional cells to the n-skeleton Xn via attaching maps, i.e. continuous maps f : ∂Dn+1 = Sn → Xn. The (n+1)-skeleton Xn+1 is defined as the quotient of the disjoint union of Xn with the (n+1)-cells via the identifications made by the attacting maps (i.e. x ∼ f(x)).
 * 3) Let X = ∪nXn equipped with the weak topology: a subset A ⊂ X is open iff A ∩ Xn is open in Xn for each n.

=Pseudoscalar=

The unit pseudoscalar in Cℓp,q(R) is given by
 * $$\omega = e_1e_2\cdots e_{n}$$

The norm of ω is given by
 * $$Q(\omega) = \bar\omega\omega = (-1)^q$$

and the square is
 * $$\omega^2 = (-1)^{n(n+1)/2}(-1)^q = (-1)^{(p-q)(p-q+1)/2} =

\begin{cases}+1 & p-q \equiv 0,3 \mod{4}\\ -1 & p-q \equiv 1,2 \mod{4}\end{cases}$$

=List of small groups=

Order 16
There are 14 groups (5 abelian) of order 16.

title: User:Fropuff/Drafts/Miscellaneous


text:
Talk:Mycroft Holmes

Was the protagonist of the movie "sherlock holmes' smarter brother" ? Speculation: was Mycroft from the Heinlein novel an inspiration for the name Microsoft? likely not. Pedant 06:31, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

No. In "The Adventure of Sherlock Holmes Smarter Brother", the character is named Sigerson Holmes. And I doubt seriously that there was any link to Microsoft. RickK 06:35, Aug 5, 2004 (UTC)

There is a story in my family that Mycroft Holmes is named after a William Mycroft who played cricket for Derbyshire County Cricket Club in the 1870's. Is there any truth in this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.113.200.162 (talk • contribs) 1 December 2004

Wasn't M in The League really Moriarty, but everyone thought it was Mycroft? I don't really remember it was like 2 years since i read it. Gkhan 16:54, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)

 * Yes, Moriarty was M to begin with, but Mycroft became M in issue #6. The statement in the article that Mycroft Holmes appears as M in The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is the truth and nothing but the truth; it's not the whole truth, but the whole truth would be a spoiler and is arguably not necessary in this context. --Paul A 03:10, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Why has this article been tagged with the "unverified" label? Which bit specifically is the problem? --Paul A 03:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm removing it. Yes, we need supporting references. No, we don't need ambiguous ugly tags. ike9898 15:09, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

There are at least TWO Wikipedians who have usernames based on this character, although the other one is delete happy and frequently vandalizes select pages. . . Oh well. --Mycroft.Holmz 17:37, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Should the use of Mycroft as the name for the government's secure communications network (http://www.computing.co.uk/computing/news/2070752/40m-deal-secure-immigration) be included in 'References in Popular Culture'? Gregmcdougall 15:41, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The Lewis Gilbert mentioned in the text who supposedly played Mycroft in a 1922 movie was born in 1920 and probably was not the Gilbert that was meant. I don't know whether the link is wrong (i.e. a second Lewis Gilbert), the name of the actor or the date, but it doesn't add up. 62.131.103.236 (talk) 23:33, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

 * You're right – Wikipedia's article is about the film director Lewis Gilbert, not the actor who was in the Sherlock Holmes films. —Paul A (talk) 02:21, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Etymology of "Mycroft"
Does anyone happen to know what the word/ name "mycroft" means etymologically? Is it orginally referring to the place of origin of some person or to the profession of his ancestors? I'm curious to learn, so please don't let me in the lurch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.34.13.172 (talk • contribs) 29 March 2007

As far as is known, Mycroft is an Old English compound of mype=waterfall and croft=farming field. As a surname it is common in the Midlands and it is theorized it may have been a town there. No proof of a town exists. Jane Mycroft ca. 1601 is the first recorded use of the name. So to answer the query, the etymology of the name is Old English and I would have to go further back and say Saxon. I believe it is possible Doyle may have been also referring to this symbol from the I-Ching of water-over-field. One might say "Mycroft" means "Waterfield".75.21.159.227 (talk) 18:23, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Any object called "Mycroft" gets to go in?
Well, as to this edit here, I have to disagree that a missile or any other inanimate object named "Mycroft" should be included. This is not an actual reference in any way to Mycroft's character, merely a name in this instance. However, I am in no position to revert the edit. I will respect it.~© Djathink imacowboy  18:11, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

 * It seems to be a pretty oblique reference at best; I don't see the need to include it. Mediatech492 (talk) 22:31, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

 * Seconded. What do you say, Mediatech, shall it be removed or should we wait for what I am certain will be deafening silence about the issue? It does seem oblique.~© Djathink imacowboy  23:23, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

 * I disagree in principle with any suggestion that inanimate objects should be excluded automatically; a list of references-to-Mycroft is not merely a list of characters-who-resemble-Mycroft, and if the latter is what you want to insist on, you should say so explicitly and retitle the list accordingly. Otherwise, an object named in reference to Mycroft Holmes is just as much a reference to Mycroft as a character thus named would be.

 * (And just what was the point of that random jab about "deafening silence", anyway?) — Paul A (talk) 06:40, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

 * Please keep discussion related to the topic only. WP:NOTFORUM This article is about the fictional character Mycroft Holmes, it is not intended to be a general survey of all uses of the name Mycroft. Admittedly Mycroft is an uncommon name, but unless it directly relates to the character it is superfluous. Your missile system might be added to the Mycroft page but I don't see its relevance here. Mediatech492 (talk) 16:00, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

 * Everywhere I say "Mycroft" above, I mean it as shorthand for "the fictional character Mycroft Holmes". "Reference to Mycroft" thus means "reference to the fictional character Mycroft Holmes", and so on. The Mycroft missile defense system is named after Mycroft Holmes, not any other Mycroft; this is quite clear in the original context. Knowing that, and remembering that I'd already said as much to Djathinkimacowboy (in an earlier conversation, not here), I assumed it as a given fact of the conversation, and thus expressed myself poorly, for which I apologise.

 * Can I take a moment to dispute the phrase "your missile system". I'm not in this for the missile system (I didn't add the example to the page, if that's what you're thinking), I'm in this because somebody removed an example without explaining why it didn't belong, and I still don't see that it doesn't. — Paul A (talk) 05:11, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

 * Paul, try to post in some reasonable way, I am asking respectfully. You placed your above post here deliberately between Mediatech's earlier post and my reply to that post. You know better than that I hope, and will treat it as an oversight.~© Djathink imacowboy  07:39, 14 October 2012 (UTC) --I strike this statement out of respect for views that have been expressed to me. Thereby I retract what is in the statement as posted. My apologies for any misunderstandings.~© Djathink  imacowboy  22:22, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

It is good to see that we are, indeed, keeping on topic. I appreciate Paul's opinions, but I fear he is wrong in his view about this matter. I repeat my stated opinion that nowhere on any comparable page do the editors simply get to list anything that is named after a character; there has to be some significance about it. Because something is named "Mycroft", for example, and because it succeeds in a line of things that had been named "Moriarty", while clear references to "Sherlock Holmes" stories, doesn't mean it ought to be placed on this page - especially in light of the objections of two editors here.~© Djathink imacowboy  03:12, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

 * You say "I repeat my stated opinion", but that's not the opinion you stated above. What you said, and what I responded to, is that no inanimate object should be included. I didn't address the question of significance because if you were going to rule out all inanimate objects entirely, it wouldn't matter how meaningful the inanimate object's name was.

 * Since it does matter: I don't think that the naming of the missile system is entirely superficial. It's introduced as a superior alternative to the system that had previously been considered best ever, just as its namesake is introduced as a superior deductive reasoner to the deductive reasoner who had previously been considered best ever.

 * Incidentally, you want to be careful about saying things like "in light of the objections of two editors". It's a basic principle of Wikipedia that discussion proceeds by reason and consensus, not by popular vote. The number of editors with objections isn't supposed to be relevant, only the nature of the objections. — Paul A (talk) 05:11, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

 * Umm, well said. But I prefer a person to whom I can say, "Well done." So I'm not going to argue with you. That missile does not belong here because it is not a character based on the character of Mycroft, it is not a send-up, a spoof or a satire, it is really not anything but a missile. And you've read what some of us here think about that. So carry on by all means. I'm not going to do battle over something like this.~© Djathink imacowboy  06:54, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

 * I apologise if I did wrong about the order of my replies. I didn't mean to obscure the order of the conversation (which hopefully the timestamps would have made clear anyway); I meant only to reply to each of you directly on the points which you each had made.

 * I still don't really understand how a missile named in reference to Mycroft Holmes doesn't belong on a list of references to Mycroft Holmes, but I'm not going to do battle about it either. I've had a fair chance to explain my position, and if you're not still convinced, that's life.

 * I hope there are no hard feelings. — Paul A (talk) 01:05, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

 * No, Paul, the fault lies with me. I have been stubborn and frankly just plain wrong. You did perfectly well in the manner of your posting. It is nice to see that you 'extend the hand' as it were, and of course I accept. As to the other detail, I'm not certain that we see eye-to-eye in the matter but let's not break our hearts over it either. I've agreed to leave the missile reference in there because frankly it couldn't hurt. Cheers my new friend!~© Djathink imacowboy  22:28, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Brain of Britain
Mycroft was the pseudonym of the "setter" of questions for the Brain of Britain quiz until April 2002. See Brain of Britain. Perhaps worth inclusion under references in popular culture? Everybody got to be somewhere! (talk) 23:14, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

Mycroft - my land. Mycroft first appears in two 1893 adventures. In 1893 Gladstone introduced the Second Home Rule Bill. In 'The Greek Interpreter' Holmes intervenes to prevent a forced marriage. In 'The Final Problem' Mycroft, Gladstone, drives the plot onwards. See 'Moriarty Unmasked: Conan Doyle and an Anglo-Irish Quarrel', Jane Stanford, Carrowmore, 2017. PPs.21-22.

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Austin, Nevada

Austin is an unincorporated small town in, and former county seat of, Lander County, Nevada, United States. In 2020, the census-designated place of Austin had a population of 167. It is located on the western slopes of the Toiyabe Range at an elevation of 6575 ft. U.S. Route 50 passes through the town.

History
The Austin area was originally occupied by bands of the Western Shoshone people. The city of Austin was mapped out in 1862 by David Buell. This was during the American Civil War, and the Union was eager to find new sources of precious metals, especially gold, to support the war effort. The city was named after Buell's partner, Alvah Austin, during a silver rush. The valued metal was reputedly found when a Pony Express horse kicked over a rock and observers noticed the silver. In 1862, it was designated as the county seat of Lander County. (In 1979, after the center of population had shifted, the county seat was shifted to Battle Mountain.) By summer 1863, Austin and the surrounding Reese River Mining District had a population of more than 10,000, mostly European Americans attracted to the silver boom. In January 1864, a petition was created to combine Clifton, Austin and Upper Austin into the "City of Austin." The Governor signed the bill in February 1864. In 1864, the town launched Reuel Colt Gridley's impromptu fundraising drive that raised over $250,000 for wounded Civil War veterans, by repeatedly auctioning a sack of flour.

The Nevada Central Railroad was built to connect Austin with the transcontinental railroad at Battle Mountain in 1880. However, by that time the silver boom was almost over. The city was disincorporated in 1881. Major silver production ended by 1887, although there was a slight revival in the 1910s. In the mid-1950s there was a great deal of interest in uranium deposits in the area, to fuel the emerging nuclear industry, but the ore proved to be of low quality.

Gold and silver mining has continued in the area sporadically and at generally low levels of production. High quality turquoise is still mined in the area in small quantities. Several shops manufacture jewelry from local turquoise.

Geography
The Austin silver deposits consist of numerous narrow (often only several inches in width) quartz veins hosted in monzonite rock. The main ore minerals are sulfides that contain silver, including large quantities of galena and tetrahedrite. Oxidized ore, which was very shallow, included silver chloride (chlorargyrite) which was easily reduced to metallic silver, although these oxidized deposits were exhausted quickly. The deeper sulfide (hypogene) ore was much more difficult to work and had to be roasted prior to amalgamation. Milling and concentration was used to separate the silver-containing sulfides from the barren quartz. Because of the added expense of this kind of processing along with the narrow veins, only high grade ores could be profitably worked in Austin.

The Austin veins are of an older age and were formed at a greater depth than many other silver districts in Nevada, such as the epithermal veins of Virginia City (Comstock Lode). In addition, the value of the Austin ores was largely (with several exceptions) silver (with significant base metals (lead, zinc and copper)) with very little gold, whereas most epithermal veins have highly significant gold.

Climate
Austin experiences a cold semi-arid climate (Köppen BSk) with cold, snowy winters and hot, dry summers.

Demographics
In 1863 Austin had a permanent and transient population of about 7,000. With the end of gold and silver mining in the region, the population has steadily declined.

Attractions
Austin is a "living ghost town", a well-preserved example of an early Nevada mining town. It contains four churches; both the Catholic church and the Austin Methodist Church were built in 1866. The Methodist Church is now used as a community center. The Catholic Church, St. Augustine's, has been purchased and is being restored as a cultural center for Central Nevada. The Episcopal church, dedicated to St. George and considered by some to be the prettiest frontier church still standing, was built in 1878 and is still in regular use. These three churches are listed as Nevada Historical Marker 67.

The fourth church is a more recent building built by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The International Hotel, first built in Virginia City in 1859 and moved to Austin in 1863, still serves meals and drinks, but it does not rent out rooms (there is a motel across the street). The International Hotel is said to be the oldest in Nevada. Austin contains numerous other historical buildings, in various states of repair. Stokes Castle, an Italian-style three-story stone tower, is located just outside Austin. It was built in 1897 by Anson Phelps Stokes, a wealthy New York capitalist who had a financial interest in several of the local mines. It was occupied only for a month. Vacant and abandoned, it fell into disrepair.In addition to Stokes Castle and the three churches, a number of other structures in Austin are listed on the National Register of Historic Places. These include the Austin Cemetery, the old city hall, the Austin Masonic and Odd Fellows Hall, the Gridley Store, the former Lander County Courthouse, and Lander County High School, as well as the Austin Historic District. Toquima Cave, an archeological and prehistoric site near the town, is also listed on the Register.

Approximately 15 mi east of Austin is a cluster of natural hot springs maintained by visitors and local volunteers. The Hickison Petroglyph Recreation Area, 24 mi east of Austin, features a short interpretive trail where visitors can see ancient drawings carved into the rocks.

Government
Austin is the headquarters of the federally recognized Yomba Shoshone Tribe of the Yomba Reservation.

Infrastructure
Austin has a public library, a branch of the Elko-Lander-Eureka County Library System.

In popular culture

 * In the Lucky Luke book Le Fil qui chante, the caravan makes a stop at Austin to restock on telegraph poles.

 * The town features in the 1971 cult movie "Vanishing Point."

title: Austin, Nevada


text:
The Death of the Heart

The Death of the Heart is a 1938 novel by Elizabeth Bowen set in the interwar period. It is about a sixteen-year-old orphan, Portia Quayne, who moves to London to live with her half-brother Thomas and falls in love with Eddie, a friend of her sister-in-law.

Bowen called it a 'pre-war' novel, "a novel which reflects the time, the pre-war time with its high tension, its increasing anxieties, and this great stress on individualism. People were so conscious of themselves, and of each other, and of their personal relationships because they thought that everything of that time might soon end."

Synopsis
At the beginning of the novel, Portia moves in with Anna and Thomas Quayne after her mother dies. Portia is Thomas's half sister. Mr. Quayne ( Thomas's father ) had an extramarital affair with Irene (Portia's mother) while married to Thomas's mother. When Irene became pregnant, and Mrs. Quayne learned of it, she was adamant that he do what was the right thing: so, at his own wife's unyielding insistence, Mr. Quayne divorced Thomas's mother and married Irene. Mr. Quayne, Irene, and Portia then left England and travelled through Europe as exiles from society and from the Quayne family, living in the cheapest of lodgings. Irene and Portia continued to live in this fashion until, when Portia was 16, Irene died. Portia was sent to live with Thomas and Anna after Irene's death. The plan is that she is to stay with them for one year at which time Portia will leave and move in with Irene's sister (Portia's aunt).

Portia is a naturally awkward girl, and this aspect of her personality has been intensified by her strange childhood which was one of constant travel, change, and strangers, while at the same time being incredibly isolating. She is uniquely innocent in her observations of people, and is baffled by inconsistencies between what they say and what they do, and wonders why people say things they do not mean. She keeps a diary detailing the lives of those around her, particularly Anna, trying to understand the key to people she thinks she is missing. Anna finds and reads Portia's diary; she is incensed by the idea of the girl observing her every move, and rages about the girl to her friend St. Quentin, a writer and frequent visitor to the Quaynes's home. It becomes clear over the course of the novel that Anna dislikes Portia because she is strange. Anna and Thomas are generally uncomfortable with Portia in their home but try to make do. They send her to classes where she makes friends with a girl named Lilian.

Portia's love interest, if she can be said to have one, is a man named Eddie. Eddie works at Thomas's advertising agency. He also has a flirtatious relationship with Anna prior to Portia's arrival. Eddie does not truly love Portia.

Partway through the novel, Anna and Thomas go on holiday to Italy and send Portia to live with Anna's former governess, Mrs. Heccomb, for the duration of the trip.

The climax of the novel occurs when St. Quentin, a friend of Anna's, tells Portia that Anna has been reading her diary. As a result of this Portia runs away. She first goes to Eddie who becomes overwhelmed by her and sends her away telling her that he is Anna's lover (which is not true). Portia then takes refuge with an acquaintance of Anna's named Major Brutt. Portia goes to Major Brutt's hotel and begs him to run away with her and to marry her. Major Brutt then calls Thomas and Anna to tell them where Portia is. The novel ends with Thomas and Anna sending their maid Matchett to Major Brutt's hotel in order to fetch Portia.

Literary praise
The Death of the Heart has been named as one of the 100 best modern novels, both by Time and the Modern Library.

Adaptation
The novel was adapted into a 1986 TV serial, starring Patricia Hodge and Miranda Richardson.

title: The Death of the Heart