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Talk:Simo Häyhä

Picture of Häyhä wearing a mask
That picture isn't Häyhä. He never wore that sort of mask, he didn't use that swedish gun and never had a knife on the gun. That's a misinformation in that picture Karpalet (talk) 05:06, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 June 2022
That picture of Häyhä wearing a mask isn't Häyhä. Misinformation. That's a swedish volunteer. Karpalet (talk) 05:08, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
 * This claim would need to be supported by a reliable source. WP:VERIFY --TylerBurden (talk) 07:46, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

That claim inserting wrong picture in wiki would need a source too. There aren't a single picture of Häyhä wearing that sort of mask or that gun in any article, picture, detail, whatsoever. Häyhä also never used that swedish gun model showing in the picture. Completely false information about him. Karpalet (talk) 19:11, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

 * The picture is included in reliable sources saying it is him, if you can't provide counter proof, then it's not getting changed. TylerBurden (talk) 19:14, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
 * National Geographic, considered a reliable source per WP:RS/P. Your turn. TylerBurden (talk) 19:16, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

I'd show you a link for an article about that, but I can't link it here?

It's an article about that picture, where they published a coin with that picture and had to apologize for making a mistake. Karpalet (talk) 19:19, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

 * You can post the link here. TylerBurden (talk) 19:21, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

In that finnish article, finnsih war history docent Pasi Tuunainen says a lot about that controversial picture. It's in Ilta-sanomat article, written in finnish.

There they open up about that person, and say it's falsely claimed to be Häyhä. And I believe more finnish historians, Museum of Häyhä, everything. Not in a single reliable source from Finland has shown that picture. Karpalet (talk) 19:25, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

And in that link you posted, the source is said to be "archivos militares finlandese" -> there isn't that picture of Häyhä in any finnish war history photography archives. Not in a single one. Karpalet (talk) 19:30, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Everything in that picture is wrong by the time, most importantly that gun. Simo never, never used that 6.5mm mauser from Sweden showed in the picture. That gun doesn't exist in a single other picture of Simo. He used pystykorva, m/28-30.

That article isn't even a reliable source in terms of they used pictures found online. Karpalet (talk) 19:36, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

 * Again you're not offering any counter sources, only making claims. We don't add content based on what we personally think, we just add what the reliable sources say, National Geographic published that article and they are considered a reliable source. At this point I would say offer something concrete or drop it, because National Geographic is considered a reliable source, your original research (WP:NOR) is not. TylerBurden (talk) 21:45, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
 * It's a Swedish volunteer using a Swedish m/96 Mauser. The M28/30 Mosin Simo would've been using has a full length handguard and front sight protectors. The original captions says: "Swedish volunteer, “somewhere in Northern Finland,” protects himself from the sub-zero arctic cold by an eerie mask over his face in Feb. 20, 1940 while on duty against the Russian Invaders. The small holes in the mask through which the soldier sights his rifle. (AP Photo)". Link: http://www.apimages.com/metadata/Index/Watchf-AP-I-SWE-APHS372029-WWII/9ba789ea0f244b718e53dbceb1a4f5d0 Tenacious Trilobite (talk) 01:00, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
 * There is currently a server error for that site, I will check later. TylerBurden (talk) 03:47, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The site works now. The problem with that is that it is simply the overview given by the image selling website. Are there any high quality sources confirming the picture as a Swedish volunteer? Because with National Geographic saying it is Häyhä, Wikipedia policy abides by that per WP:CITE. TylerBurden (talk) 13:02, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

That was the earliest source I could find. I tried to attack it from the other way by searching through the Finnish military archives last night. If that image is actually in the Finnish archives, then it isn't tagged with the Finnish words for sniper, rifle, Simo, Häyhä, bayonet, conceal, camouflage, mask, face mask, Swedish, volunteer, or any of the archive images from Jan 1 through June 1 of 1940. The rifle is definitely a Swedish m/96 Mauser with a Swedish bayonet, which directly contradicts the paragraph immediately under it in the Wikipedia article. It is very well known that he used an M28/30 Mosin, and all of the pictures of him with a rifle that I did see in the Finnish archives showed him holding an M28/30. At the very most, that is a picture of him holding someone else’s rifle. Tenacious Trilobite (talk) 17:56, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

 * I'll remove the image because of the uncertainty surrounding this, it's possible National Geographic made a mistake. There are other images on the article depicting Häyhä for sure so it's not a major loss anyway. TylerBurden (talk) 15:11, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Redaction of the last paragraph in "In Popular Culture"
The depiction of Simo Häyhä in the manga "Record of Ragnarok" isn't in the manga itself yet but rather it's on the manga's illustrator twitter, couldn't it be redacted to reflect that he hasn't made an official appearance in the manga yet? 81.226.239.213 (talk) 05:18, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

 * It's me again, I'm certain the redaction of that paragraph should be in future tense, something like... "He is also to make an appearence in the manga... "
 * "...however, official concept art is already public on..." 81.226.239.213 (talk) 09:54, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
 * https://twitter.com/record_ragnarok/status/1197068538126581762 81.226.239.213 (talk) 09:56, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The source for that part simply lists him as a "fighter" appearing in it. So unless you find a different (reliable) source for this future tense you want to include it can't be changed. It would need to be something better than a Tweet. TylerBurden (talk) 10:02, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Is saying that he hasn't made an appearance yet a spoiler? Also i'm sure that whole section should just be a separate short paragraoh because it has nothing to do with the manga "The White Witch" 81.226.239.213 (talk) 13:22, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Kill count in the intro
Hello, I was just wondering as to why the article assumes a baseline of over 500 kills by Häyhä in the intro pararaph. Sniper kills are often inflated as a tool of propaganda and the claim of only 200 kills as an estimate later in the article seems much more reasonable. While not an expert I would guess a wording of something to the effect of "over 200" or "between 200-500" would be more in line with Wikipedia standards. Although the 500 figure does have a lot of sourcing to it so I can see the other argument here. Ashemus (talk) 15:15, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

 * You basically answered your own question at the end, most reliable sources go with the 500+ estimate, so per WP:DUE it is what should be the most prominent. That some sources have questioned the high number is appropriately covered in the relevant section of the article body. TylerBurden (talk) 15:47, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I am only suspect of the number given as most sources, though reliable would have a motive for inflating the number. Simo was also surrounded by a lot of writers and propagandists for the Finnish military, such as his own company commander, through no fault of his own. Also, the claim of 500 plus kills means around 5-6 confirmed kills a day, every day, for 3 months. That number should need a great deal of evidence to support it, besides just the words of the Finnish military. I personally think there should be at least a discussion around this if the claim is to be kept. Ashemus (talk) 14:01, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The same argument can be made that other sources have motives for discrediting his achievements as a soldier, particularly Russian ones where that is most common for obvious reasons. I don't know how aware you are of Wikipedia policy, but Wikipedia goes with what established reliable sources say, which like I said tend to go with 500+. Note that it says "is believed to have killed over 500". Wikipedia doesn't state it as fact, which is appropriate since we can't confirm his exact number of kills. TylerBurden (talk) 02:37, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
 * What I am doing is trying to reinforce Wikipedias reputation for using reliable, unbiased sources. No, I don't think quoting Russian sources is the response to this, if there even are any about Häyhä's time in combat. The article only uses Finnish sources to back up the claim which could be seen as equally unsubstantial for Wikipedias standards. There were thrid parties to this conflict, no contemporary sources are cited from them. It is well known that sniper kill counts are inflated as a tool of propeganda, which is something I don't think Wikipedia should be doing, as biased sources should not count as reliable. Ashemus (talk) 21:54, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Well the established reliable sources that Wikipedia uses disagrees with you, if you want to change the way Wikipedia writes about historical topics, maybe you can do so at the WP:VILLAGEPUMP, instead of targeting a single article. TylerBurden (talk) 22:11, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Honestly thats a pretty good idea when it comes to military sniper kill counts on this site. It seems that in the intros to the pages of snipers on Wikipedia the propaganda number is taken at face value with little questioning. I personally do not think the country of origins military is an unbiased enough source to use in claims like this. However I don't know if most people would agree with me on that. Ashemus (talk) 00:30, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * According to a translation of his own diary, he said himself that he had "~500" kills. Since this was a private memoir, I doubt he wanted to inflate it. But one thesis I saw speculated that he wanted to give a false kill count because he never wanted to reveal the real number in case someone found his diary. 76.150.239.123 (talk) 00:34, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, in his memoirs he said "~500" kills", and described them as "sins" but he didn't specify in which way he made those kills! From his field chaplain Antti Rantamaa and his division commander A. Svenson, we know that he killed as many with SMG(and LMG) as with his rifle. Do people seriously think that Häyhä saw his kills with automatic weapon as lesser of a sin than killing with bolt action rifle? Coincidentally 259 + ~259= ~500. L0ll3r (talk) 20:05, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * @Ashemus I recommend you cease trying to diminish this man's battlefield accomplishments and do not slander him, it reflects poorly on your character and honor... Jholmes2070 (talk) 19:46, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Simo Häyhä


text:
Matson

Matson may refer to:

 * Matson (surname)
 * Matson, Gloucester, England, a suburb of Gloucester
 * Matson, Missouri, an unincorporated community
 * 2586 Matson, an asteroid
 * Matson, Inc., a shipping company, formerly Matson Navigation Company
 * Matson Films, American film distributor

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Matson


text:
Khao Sok National Park

Khao Sok National Park (เขาสก, ) is in Surat Thani Province, Thailand. Its area is 461,712 rai ~ 739 km2, and it includes the 165 sqkm Cheow Lan Lake contained by the Ratchaprapha Dam. The park is the largest area of virgin forest in southern Thailand and is a remnant of rain forest which is older and more diverse than the Amazon rain forest.

Geography
Sandstone and mudstone rocks rise about 300. – above sea level. The park is traversed by a limestone mountain range from north to south with a high point of 950. m. This mountain range is hit by monsoon rain coming from both the Gulf of Thailand and the Andaman Sea, which makes it among Thailand's wettest regions with an annual rain fall of 3,500. mm. Heavy rainfall and falling leaves led to the erosion of the limestone rocks and created the significant karst formations seen today.

Flora
Bamboo holds topsoil very tenaciously, preventing soil erosion on hillsides and riverbanks. With more than 1,500 species, bamboo is the oldest grass in the world, dating back nearly 60 million years. Liana trees grow rapidly wrapping around any vertical or horizontal support base such as takian or "rain trees". Thus, it's dangerous to simply cut a tree in the jungle because it can pull connected liana vines with it creating a cascade of damage. Buttress roots are enlarged root bases mostly of trees that grow above the upper canopy. The theory about these roots is that they either developed in order to be more grounded in storms and rain or that they spread out on the ground in order to get more nutrients.

Many kinds of wild fruit can be found around the national park and serve as sustenance for animals. Among those fruits are wild jackfruit, mangosteen, durian, rambutan, jujube, pomelo, and wild bananas. Wild pepper and ginger are not uncommon. Khao Sok National Park is perhaps most famous for the bua phut (Rafflesia kerrii) flower.

Wildlife
The park is estimated to contain over five percent of the world's species. Wild mammals include Malayan tapir, Asian elephant, tiger, sambar deer, bear, gaur, banteng, serow, wild boar, pig-tailed macaque, langur, white handed gibbons, squirrel, muntjak, mouse deer, and barking deer.

The world's first known amphibious centipede, Scolopendra cataracta, was discovered on a stream bank near the national park in 2001.

Khao Sok on the part of the Ratchaprapha Dam is also the last natural habitat in Thailand of the Asian arowana, an endangered living fossil fish.

Climate
The so-called wet season is between late April–December. The temperature ranges from 22 – all year around. Humidity and warm temperature provide the optimal environment for a rich eco-system in this tropical rain forest.

Natural History
This area is estimated to be over 160 million years old, built through tectonic movements, climate changes, erosions and sediment accumulations. Approximately 300 million years ago, shallow water and warm temperatures in this region led to the creation of a huge coral reef. Estimated to be 5 times as big as the Great Barrier Reef in Australia, it originally stretched from China all the way to Borneo. Due to the collision of the Indian and Eurasian plate 0-66 million years ago, the Himalayas were formed, and what is now Thailand shifted dramatically near the continental divide and the limestone rocks were forced upward creating the dramatic limestone "karsts" for which the region is known today. Finally, melting ice established the river-rich landscape as well as dozens of waterfalls around the national park.

Human History
The first migrants to Thailand migrated during the Ice Age from Borneo around 37,000 BCE.

The first accounts of people living in Khao Sok were found in the 1800s, during the reign of Rama II. In the Burmese-Siamese War (1809-1812), the Burmese army invaded the western portion of the area, forcing the inhabitants to flee inland. They found the area to be extremely alluring, in beauty, wildlife abundance, and good soil. As news spread of this discovery, more people immigrated to settle the region.

In 1944, the inhabitants of this region were stricken by a deadly epidemic. A large number of the villagers died while the few survivors escaped from the area to settle in nearby Takua Pa.

In 1961, Route 401 was built from Phun Pin in Surat Thani Province to Takua Pa in Phang Nga Province. At the turn of the millennium, they began the process of expanding Route 401 to a 4 lane freeway.

In the 1970s, Thai student activists and communist insurgents set up strongholds in the caves of Khao Sok. Settled in the shelter of the rainforest they protected the region from the Thai army, loggers, miners, and hunters for seven years.

Khao Sok became a national park in 1980. The government and the Electricity Generating Authority of Thailand (EGAT) were interested in this region because Khao Sok holds the largest watershed in southern Thailand.

Only 2 years later, EGAT completed the 94 m high Ratchaprapha Dam, blocking off the Klong Saeng River, a tributary of the Phum Duang River and creating a 165 sqkm lake inside the park. The dam provides electricity for the south, and the lake became a major holiday destination for Thai and foreign tourists alike. There were several species of animals that had to be resettled to save them from drowning, as the lake slowly filled over a period of 3 years. Unfortunately, a study from 1995 revealed the loss of some 52 species of fish from the river, which could not survive in the stagnant water.

Activities
Khao Sok National Park has various activities for tourists who enjoy activities such as trekking, canoeing, bamboo rafting. A boat tour to Cheow Lan lake is also available.

Trekking: Due to Khao Sok being a tropical rainforest, there are many wild animals such as “wild elephants, serow, tigers, Malayan sun bears and over 180 bird species to watch”. Those interested in trekking can hire a local guide. Rafflesia Kerrii Meijer can be found in the area. Tourists may stay in the rainforest overnight.

Canoeing and Bamboo rafting: Sok River is known for beautiful views along the river. There are local guides for tourists to hire for canoeing and bamboo rafting tours.

Boat to Cheow Lan lake: Within the deep forest, there are caves to explore such as Diamond cave, Khang Cow Cave and Nam Talu cave which connect to Cheow Lan lake. Nam Talu cave is about 12 km from the headquarters of Khao Sok National Park. Tour guides are available to boat visitors from the waterfall to the lake.

title: Khao Sok National Park


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dissociative

Dissociative the band and Ryan Albert was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE

An unimportant local band with an overinflated opinion of themselves. The link to Dick Cheney is pretty bogus, too. RickK 20:42, Jul 19, 2004 (UTC) This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like other '/delete' pages is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.
 * Odds are someone will raise a statue to me before they raise one to our friend Ryan. Delete as extreme, self-aggrandizing vanity. - Lucky 6.9 20:58, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Due to lack of funds, so if we all pass the hat, we might get that statue built, yet. Band vanity, delete, and a prescription of Respirodol for all. Geogre 21:50, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * disassociate band from this site and sell the space to evil hat-making anti-literate capitalists. Ianb 21:54, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete musical vanity. -- Cyrius|✎ 02:08, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)


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Use value

Use value (Gebrauchswert) or value in use is a concept in classical political economy and Marxist economics. It refers to the tangible features of a commodity (a tradeable object) which can satisfy some human requirement, want or need, or which serves a useful purpose. In Karl Marx's critique of political economy, any product has a labor-value and a use-value, and if it is traded as a commodity in markets, it additionally has an exchange value, defined as the proportion by which a commodity can be exchanged for other entities, most often expressed as a money-price.

Marx acknowledges that commodities being traded also have a general utility, implied by the fact that people want them, but he argues that this by itself says nothing about the specific character of the economy in which they are produced and sold.

Origin of the concept
The concepts of value, use value, utility, exchange value and price have a very long history in economic and philosophical thought. From Aristotle to Adam Smith and David Ricardo, their meanings have evolved. Smith recognized that commodities may have an exchange-value but may satisfy no use-value, such as diamonds, while a commodity with a very high use-value may have a very low exchange-value, such as water. Marx comments for example that "in English writers of the 17th century we frequently find worth in the sense of value in use, and value in the sense of exchange-value." With the expansion of market economy, however, the focus of economists has increasingly been on prices and price-relations, the social process of exchange as such being assumed to occur as a naturally given fact.

In The Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844, Marx emphasizes that the use-value of a labour-product is practical and objectively determined; that is, it inheres in the intrinsic characteristics of a product that enable it to satisfy a human need or want. The use-value of a product therefore exists as a material reality according to social needs regardless of the individual need of any particular person. The use-value of a commodity is specifically a social use-value, meaning that it has a generally accepted use-value for others in society, and not just for the producer.

Marx's definition
Marx first defines use-value precisely in A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy (1859) where he explains:

"To begin with, a commodity, in the language of the English economists, is 'any thing necessary, useful or pleasant in life,' an object of human wants, a means of existence in the widest sense of the term. Use-value as an aspect of the commodity coincides with the physical palpable existence of the commodity. Wheat, for example, is a distinct use-value differing from the use-values of cotton, glass, paper, etc. A use-value has value only in use, and is realized only in the process of consumption. One and the same use-value can be used in various ways. But the extent of its possible application is limited by its existence as an object with distinct properties. It is, moreover, determined not only qualitatively but also quantitatively. Different use-values have different measures appropriate to their physical characteristics; for example, a bushel of wheat, a quire of paper, a yard of linen. Whatever its social form may be, wealth always consists of use-values, which in the first instance are not affected by this form. From the taste of wheat it is not possible to tell who produced it, a Russian serf, a French peasant or an English capitalist. Although use-values serve social needs and therefore exist within the social framework, they do not express the social relations of production. For instance, let us take as a use-value a commodity such as a diamond. We cannot tell by looking at it that the diamond is a commodity. Where it serves as an aesthetic or mechanical use-value, on the neck of a courtesan or in the hand of a glass-cutter, it is a diamond and not a commodity. To be a use-value is evidently a necessary prerequisite of the commodity, but it is immaterial to the use-value whether it is a commodity. Use-value as such, since it is independent of the determinate economic form, lies outside the sphere of investigation of political economy. It belongs in this sphere only when it is itself a determinate form. Use-value is the immediate physical entity in which a definite economic relationship—exchange-value—is expressed."

The concept is also introduced at the beginning of Das Kapital, where Marx writes, but in the extract below he holds it up as a critique of Hegel's liberal "Philosophy of Right". He remained a sharp critic of what was to the Marxian view a destructive philosophy:

This was a direct reference by Marx to Hegel's Elements of the Philosophy of Right §63 as Marx adds:

Marx acknowledges that a nominal price or value can be imputed to goods or assets which are not reproducible goods and not produced by human labour, as correctly noted later by Engels that a product is not necessarily a commodity. However Marx generally holds that only human labour expended can create value compared with Nature, through instrumentation known as modus operandi, or the method of working.

Transformation into a commodity
"As exchange-values, all commodities are merely definite quantities of congealed labour-time", wrote Karl Marx. The discrepancy of the true purpose of value came to be one of the biggest sources of conflict between capital and labour. The transformation of a use-value into a social use-value and into a commodity (the process of commodification) is not automatic or spontaneous, but has technical, social and political preconditions. For example, it must be possible to trade it, and to transfer ownership or access rights to it from one person or organization to another in a secure way. There must also be a real market demand for it. And all that may depend greatly on the nature of the use-value itself, as well as the ability to package, store, preserve and transport it. In the case of information or communication as use-values, transforming them into commodities may be a complex and problem-fraught process.

Thus, the objective characteristics of use-values are very important for understanding (1) the development and expansion of market trade, and (2) necessary technical relationships between different economic activities (e.g. supply chains). To produce a car, for example, you objectively require steel, and this steel is required, regardless of what its price might be. Necessary relationships therefore exist between different use-values, because they are technically, materially and practically related. Some authors therefore write about an "industrial complex" or "technological complex", indicating thereby how different technological products are linked in a system. A good example would be all the different products involved in the production and use of motor cars.

The category of use-value is also important in distinguishing different economic sectors according to their specific type of output. Following Quesnay's analysis of economic reproduction, Marx distinguished between the economic sector producing means of production and the sectors producing consumer goods and luxuries. In modern national accounts more subtle distinctions are made, for example between primary, secondary and tertiary production, semi-durable and durable goods, and so on.

Role in political economy
In his textbook The Theory of Capitalist Development (1942), American Marxist Paul Sweezy claimed:

Marx explicitly rejected Sweezy and Uno's interpretation of use-value (see the previously cited quotation from 1859, in which use-value is distinguished from the general concept of utility). In a draft included in the Grundrisse manuscripts, which inspired the starting point of A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy and Das Kapital, Marx states:

In his text The Making of Marx's 'Capital', Roman Rosdolsky explains the role of use value in Marx's economics. Marx himself, in the introduction to his Grundrisse manuscript, had defined the economic sphere as the totality of production, circulation, distribution and consumption. However, as Marx did not live to finish Das Kapital, he did not theorise how commercial relations would reshape the sphere of personal consumption in accordance with the requirements of capital accumulation.

Minor issues remained from these neoclassical theories, such as the question of the proper empirical definition of capital and labour in the laws of factor substitution. Other empirical issues include the so-called Solow Residual in which the heterogenous nature of labour is thoroughly explored for its qualitative elements beyond differentiation, and the concept of total factor productivity, prompting some to consider such things as technology, human capital, and stock of knowledge. Later scholars, such as Walter Benjamin, Fernand Braudel, Ben Fine, Manuel Castells and Michel Aglietta attempted to fill the gap in Marx's unfinished work. In modern times the theory has been extended to conclude that conversion of energy-driven work does not rely on labour-intensive inputs; thus use can be unsupervised work that develops a notion of human capital.

Equation: A = P + hL (A, the Concept of Substitutive Work = P, the loss of Primary Productive Energy (which is P/Ep, the coefficient of efficiency) + h, the units of energy (which is the energy consumed by workers during work done) * L, Labour time per hour)

Utility
Marx's concept of use-value seems akin to, but in reality differs from the neoclassical concept of utility:
 * Marx usually assumes in his analysis that products sold in the market have a use-value to the buyer, without attempting to quantify that use-value other than in product units of price, and commodity value. (this caused some of his readers to think wrongly that use-value played no role in his theory). "The utility makes it a use value," The neoclassicals, on the other hand, typically see prices as the quantitative expression of the general utility of products for buyers and sellers, instead of expressing their exchange-value.  For "Price is the money-name of the labour realised in a commodity".
 * In neoclassical economics, this utility is ultimately subjectively determined by the buyer of a good, and not objectively by the intrinsic characteristics of the good. Thus, neoclassical economists often talk about the marginal utility of a product, i.e., how its utility fluctuates according to consumption patterns. This kind of utility is a "general utility" which exists independently from particular uses that can be made of a product, the assumption being that if somebody wants, demands, desires or needs a good, then it has this general utility. According to his supporters Marx would have allegedly rejected the concept of marginal utility precisely because it accentuated profit on capital returns over the usefulness or utility of labour.  Thus the wider application of general utility lay in variable rates of productivity, since higher labour inputs could raise or lower the price of commodity.  This was the true concept of Use as a Value system: the higher the rate of 'productiveness' the more labour 'crystallised' in the article.
 * Marx rejects any economic doctrine of consumer sovereignty, stating among other things in his first chapter to Das Kapital that "In bourgeois societies the economic fictio juris prevails, that every one, as a buyer, possesses an encyclopaedic knowledge of commodities".

In summary, different concepts of use value lead to different interpretations and explanations of trade, commerce and capitalism. Marx's main argument is that if we focus only on the general utility of a commodity, we abstract from and ignore precisely the specific social relations of production which created it.

"Indifference" of capitalists
Some academics such as Professor Robert Albritton, a Canadian political scientist, have claimed that according to Marx, capitalists are basically "indifferent" to the use-value of the goods and services in which they trade, since what matters to capitalists is just the money they make; whatever the buyer does with the goods and services produced is, so it seems, of no real concern.

But this is arguably a misunderstanding of business activity and the bourgeoisie as a class. Marx thought that capitalists can never be totally "indifferent" to use-values, because inputs of sufficient quality (labour, materials, equipment) must be bought and managed to produce outputs that:
 * will sell at an adequate profit;
 * are legally permitted by the state to be sold;
 * do not destroy the reputation of the supplier (with its obvious effect on sales).

For this purpose, the inputs in production must moreover be used in an economical way, and care must be taken not to waste resources to the extent that this would mean additional costs for an enterprise, or reduce productivity. The Theory of Use Values relates directly to human labour and the power of machines to destroy value, "Living labour must seize on these things, awaken them from the dead, change them from merely possible into real and effective use values".

It is just that from the point of view of the financier or investor, the main concern is not what exactly is being produced as such or how useful that is for society, but whether the investment can make a profit for him. If the products of the enterprise being invested in sell and make a profit, then that is regarded as sufficient indication of usefulness. Even so, the investor is obviously interested in "the state of the market" for the enterprise's products—if certain products are being used less or used more, this affects sales and profits. So to evaluate "the state of the market", the investor needs knowledge about the place of a product in the value chain and how it is being used.

Often, Marx assumed in Das Kapital for argument's sake that supply and demand will balance, and that products do sell. Even so, Marx carefully defines the production process both as a labour process creating use-values, and a valorisation process creating new value. He asserts only that "capital in general" as an abstract social power, or as a property claim to surplus value, is indifferent to particular use-values—what matters in this financial relation is only whether more value can be appropriated through the exchanges that occur. Most share-holders are not interested in whether a company actually satisfies customers, they want an adequate profit on their investment (but a countertrend is so-called "socially responsible investing").

In modern times, business leaders are often very concerned with total quality management in production, which has become the object of scientific studies, as well as a new source of industrial conflict, since attempts are made to integrate everything a worker is and does (both their creative potential and how they relate to others) in the battle for improved quality. In that case, it could be argued not just labour power but the whole person is a use-value (see further Richard Sennett's books such as The Culture of the New Capitalism, Yale (2006). Some regard this practice as a kind of "wage-slavery".

From beginning to end, and from production to consumption, use-value and exchange-value form a dialectical unity. If this is not fully clear from Marx's writings, that is perhaps mainly because he never theorised the sphere of final consumption in any detail, nor the way in which commerce reshapes the way that final consumption takes place.

title: Use value


text: Category:Elections in Italy

title: Category:Elections in Italy


text:
Talk:BPM 37093

Lucy in the Sky
Just can't resist... so when singing about this object, one should sing "Lucy in the sky's a diamond." *grins* - UtherSRG 20:44, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Why not a diamond?
The article claims that the density means that the star can't be a diamond. Does anyone have a reference for that claim? Carbon doesn't have very many crystalline structures, after all, and diamond is much denser than graphite... --Andrew 03:36, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)

 * Diamond isn't much more dense (3.5 vs. 2.3 g/cm^3). In both cases, ordinary covalent bonds are present. In a white dwarf star, the electrons stack up in degenerate shells (as you'd find in an atom, or somewhat like you'd find in a piece of metal), but the nuclei are free to move around. For a hot white dwarf, this gives you an ordinary gas of carbon nuclei inside the (arguably crystalline) degenerate gas of electrons. For a white dwarf that cools sufficiently, you'd get the nuclei arranging themselves in a close-pack lattice to maintain as large a separation as possible at a given density. Many terrestrial materials have this lattice structure, but diamond isn't one of them (covalently bonded crystals have a small number of neighbours per atom). At the very surface of the star, you might get something resembling terrestrial diamond, but that would only be a very thin crust (high surface gravity means pressure increases quickly enough with depth to give you close-packing and to force electrons to be shared as opposed to stuck in covalent bonds or atoms' core shells). --Christopher Thomas 04:44, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Every quote from the astronomers refers to it as a diamond; the "five tonne" comment comes only from the BBC reporter. Perhaps that was just a flub on her part, much like CNN's FTL velocity for the Space Shuttle Columbia? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.108.2.235 (talk • contribs) 00:48, 28 April 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm pretty sure it has a very high density. From what I've heard, white dwarves can have a density about a million times greater than our Sun. After all, it's a whole lot of material collapsed into a very small space in comparison to what it was. -- Northgrove 00:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Density of diamond = 3.51 g/cm3  (or any basic mineralogy text).

Using the data from the Harvard press release and some simple calculations, the density of the carbon in the white dwarf "ash" works out to 2.7x1014 g/cm3. Now, is 3.51 equal to 270,000,000,000,000? Don't trust my calculations, grab a calculator and do your own (I may have goofed :-).

Astronomers do like to have fun and embellish the language a bit to grab the attention of reporters and the general public. After all - a diamond in the sky is a lot more newsworthy? or attention getting than super dense stellar carbon ash. I note the press release also states that the object "rings like a gigantic gong" - listen and you can hear it now from 50 light years away (and I just thought it was tinnitus).

The BBC reporter didn't "flub" as much as some gullible wikipedians are "flubbing", this is absurd. Vsmith 03:52, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Er, it does in fact ring; that's how they measured its properties. --Andrew 17:09, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

 * Diamonds, like most solids, are compressible; given high enough pressure (which is the case here) the denisty will increase. Really the question is about the crystal structure of the carbon - is it bonded like a diamond, like graphite, or like nothing on earth? Because diamond is the densest at atmospheric pressure, it seems likely that a diamond crystal structure is the densest and hence the most stable at these enormous pressures.  But I have no idea.
 * It may be the case that there is a qualitative difference between the degenerate matter making up a white dwarf and ordinary solid diamond, but I don't know enough condensed matter physics to understand. --Andrew 16:40, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
 * In fact, according to, written by Travis Metcalfe, the leader of the original team, the discovery is not that the star is mad of carbon, but that it is crystalline carbon. Now, of the possible crystal structures, diamond is the densest, and this is how the astronomers described it, so I'm inclined to believe that it really is diamond. Not much like ordinary diamond, of course, being incredibly dense, but it is specifically solid crystalline carbon. --Andrew 17:09, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

Even if you assume low temperature, diamond transforms into an structure called BC8 at about 1100 GPa (11 Mbar), and then to cubic at ~3000 GPa, this was discovered by Yin and Cohen in the 80's by doing density functional total energy calculations. Even at such high pressures, the structure (cubic) is far from being close packed. There are some technical difficulties in applying the same method to predict the next transition as pressure is increased. Saying that diamond is the densest form of carbon is for sure not true, there is always some structure with less volume (e.g. close packed) that becomes more stable at larger pressure. Existence of diamond in the interior is impossible (just because the pressure is for sure larger than 11Mbar), existence of the outer layer is also unlikely if it is true that crystallization happens inside-out in a white dwarf (as most articles say). The closest to crystals in white dwarf that I read was an article by Albison and Evans (Astro. and Space Sci. 1987) that considered the possibility of drops of liquid carbon expelled by radiation pressure and forming carbides. --Alfredo, Dec 2007. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.137.93.112 (talk) 13:55, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Remove "Artist's impression"
The image is not an accurate artist's impression. It would never look like that. That image was just meant as a metaphor. TheOtherSiguy 23:55, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

 * You mean it's not an emerald?

 * —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.133.178.130 (talk • contribs) 19:47, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Carat Count
Given a mass of 1.1 times that of our sun, it's simple enough to calculate the (hypothetical) total carats: 10^34.

In short scale, that would be ten billion trillion trillion (as edited). In long scale, it would be one thousand billion trillion, so I suppose one could put the exponent in paranthesees to avoid confusion. If anyone feels like it.

JasonD99403 (talk) 03:13, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Also, i would like to point out that, if anyone starts to get greedy, the speed of light is 669,600,000 mph and it takes 50 lightyears to reach. If that were the case, then it would take sound exactly 54863061797.75280898876404494382 years to reach. and our fastest jets can only beat that by about 10 times. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gathon9951 (talk • contribs) 17:56, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Rename article?
I suggest moving this article to V886 Centauri, which follows a wider-spread naming convention. Coments? Metebelis (talk) 22:03, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

 * You thought I'd never return :) I will rename it shortly. BPM 37093 will still link to the article, of course. Metebelis (talk) 22:51, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I renamed it back, based on the fact that the subject is much more commonly known by its BPM designation, thus following WP:NCASTRO. StringTheory11 (t • c) 02:26, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Mass and/or Radius are wrong
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BPM_37093 says BPM 37093 has the following stated mass and radius: Mass of BPM 37093 = 1.1 * 2e30 kg or 2.2e30 kg or 2.2e33 grams and Radius of BPM 37093 = 0.0057 * 6.957e8 meters = 3966 km SO, using these two figures from Wiki, I get 8.42e6 grams per cm cubed density, which seems to be non-physical. I'm assuming Wiki is wrong unless I've erred but I've done this calculation too many times to doubt myself. I hope this issue can be resolved simply and that Wiki will rectify it. RFRules (talk) 22:26, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:BPM 37093


text:
Talk:MOSFET

Totally Useful Article
As a board and ASIC level designer engineer for the past three decades, I think this article provides necessary information and is a good reference for new and experienced designers. It is definitely not for semiconductor physicists, because they will be way above this article, however it likely will be above non-technical persons who likely won't visit this page anyway or who won't need to read more than the introductory paragraphs. MOSFETs are complicated devices and if you don't know at least what is given in this article then you very likely won't be able to read the data sheets of the various types of discrete MOSFETs or of ICs whose interface outputs/inputs are made of such MOSFETs in order to design proper circuits. This article is a good and easily accessible resource for new designers or old designers - who may only do one or two designs every year or two. Of course, it's also a similarly useful resource for engineering, technology and technologist students to use in addition to their textbooks, which may provide more or less information. So, please don't dumb this article down. Indeed, it should be improved to present the information needed in the best way possible to allow these types of people to do real work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.107.66.194 (talk) 22:58, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

TheUnnamedNewbie (talk) 19:12, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * While I agree with what you are saying, the argument can (and perhaps should) be made that wikipedia is not for people who are designers, but a general resource. Designers should perhaps consult other sources (textbooks on the matter, for example). Hence, it might make sense to simplify the article at least somewhat.

 * As an uninitiated seeker of knowledge about MOSFETs, I have to agree with TheUnnamedNewbie. The "design engineer" has been indoctrinated (or perhaps innoculated is a better term) with the terminology and concepts needed to understand this article. I find articles that use terms not previously defined to be near useless. If the author decides not to define their terms, this is the most judicious time to use links to articles where those terms are defined.
 * I hope my reasoning is not found to be out of line. Dwightfowler (talk) 18:26, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

analog
The article says that analog electronics is mostly MOSFET. Not quite sure what analog is mostly now, I wonder about stereo amplifiers. Since mine isn't so new, it might not be representative. Are stereo amplifiers now mostly MOSFET? Gah4 (talk) 12:25, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * In 2020, probably so. I think most are class-D switching amplifiers these days (in every phone, for example), and even high-end class-AB amps use mosfets (see this video). Dicklyon (talk) 17:53, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

bipolar
The article seems to describe how much better MOS is than bipolar. But, other than main memory, computer technology was bipolar for about 10 years (a long time in computer years) after MOS ICs became available. Looking back, we can see the path technology took, but it wasn't so easy to see at that time. Dennard scaling is nice, but the technology to do it took some time, and even then wasn't always used. The operating voltage of a bipolar transistor depends on the energy gap, not on its size. In the early years, MOS, and especially CMOS, was much slower than TTL and ECL. MOS took over main memory, replacing magnetic cores, many years before it took over large system CPUs. Gah4 (talk) 18:09, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, I was thinking we needed more about the transition. Initially it was far from obvious MOS would win, there were big problems with stability that needed to be solved, and it was many times slower than bipolar. Bell Labs wasn't very interested. Moore (as in Moore's Law) took time to be convinced. One of the sources I was reading was saying how IBM actually tried to cancel their MOS program on multiple occasions, but the individual engineers and researchers resisted, and the management never quite followed through. It was the advantages of MOS in mass production and integrated circuits which eventually seems to have won the battle, but it took years. At the moment the article rather implies that it took over the world following Atalla and Kahng's report, and it wasn't really like that. It took people by surpise when NASA went with MOS on integrated circuits because it was very new technology. This appears to be the important point: "MOS technology  was  much slower than the standard transistors found in integrated circuits, but its simplicity of fabrication allowed manufacturers to incorporate more transistors into integrated circuits. The new MOS technology promised to solve one of spacecraft designers’ growing  predicaments,  the  need  for  greater  electronic  capability  on  board  for communications and other functions."  (p.240) IMP-D  is 1966. The Sharp QT-8D seems to have been one of the first really successful commercial applications, the cheapest electronic calculator to date, and its low power usage meant the first battery powered calculator, the QT-8B, could be launched in 1970. And then yes, sure, the applications were endless. But there's quite a long way from 1960 (MOS invented) to 1966 (IMP-D launched) and then 1969 (mass produced calculators). Merlinme (talk) 21:26, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * This is interesting, from Britannica (article co-written by Sze, no less): "The most important device for very-large-scale integrated circuits (those that contain more than 100,000 semiconductor devices such as diodes and transistors) is the metal-oxide-semiconductor field-effect transistor (MOSFET)... The main reasons why the MOSFET has surpassed the bipolar transistor and become the dominant device for very-large-scale integrated circuits are: (1) the MOSFET can be easily scaled down to smaller dimensions, (2) it consumes much less power, and (3) it has relatively simple processing steps, and this results in a high manufacturing yield (i.e., the ratio of good devices to the total)." Merlinme (talk) 21:57, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * It seems to me that the Self-aligned gate is the important invention. Before that, MOS transistors were not easier to make than bipolars.  But now, it seems so obvious. I had not thought about that it couldn't be done with aluminum at the processing temperatures. This was also the start of Intel and the 1101 MOS RAM.  But by 1970, there was 50MHz or so TTL, much faster ECL, and 1MHz SRAM. The Intel 1101, as well as I know the first MOS RAM, is 256 bits, PMOS, with +5, -7, -10 volt power supplies. Not so much later, the 1103 1K bit PMOS DRAM. These, and similar devices, were computer memory for much of the 1970's, when CPUs were TTL or ECL. The 1970's was also the time of 1MHz microprocessors.  As well as I know, it was not unusual to shrink a die, but not change the oxide thickness, so not actual Dennard scaling. Changing the oxide thickness changes the supply voltage, which means not a direct replacement.  The 8080 has +12, +5, -5 volt power supplies. (NMOS is slightly more convenient using positive power supplies, instead of negative, and still be TTL compatible.)  Scaling of whole ICs isn't so easy to describe. Individual transistors are faster, but  still have to drive the wires across the chip. Gah4 (talk) 00:29, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * AFAIK, early MOSFETs were slower than BJTs, but were smaller and consumed less power. So the earliest applications were things that require a high level of integration (like spacecraft) or low power consumption (like calculators). It wasn't until, as you mentioned, the silicon-gate came along that MOSFETs started being used extensively in computers for things like memory (replacing magnetic cores) and CPUs (with microprocessors). One of the inventors of the silicon-gate MOS IC at Fairchild, Federico Faggin, later went on to lead the development of the first single-chip microprocessor, the Intel 4004, which was fabricated on a silicon-gate PMOS IC. Intel's success with their MOS memory and microprocessors may have paved the way for MOSFETs to take over the computer industry. Maestro2016 (talk) 10:20, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Early MOSFETs were discrete devices, so size wasn't obvious. They were mostly used where the high input impedance was needed. JFETs were also used early on, where speed was needed. I am still suspicious about the use in analog circuits, where as well as I know, bipolar are still pretty popular. That is, both discrete and IC circuits. The reference given doesn't seem to say that there are more analog MOSFETs than analog bipolars, which is what the statement seems to say. Gah4 (talk) 12:09, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The earliest MOSFETs were around 10-20 micrometers in the '60s. Do you know what was the size of BJTs at the time? As noted by Merlinme above, MOS ICs were used in NASA spacecraft in the '60s because they allowed a higher level of integration. As for analog tech, the source says that MOSFETs dominate analog integrated circuits. Are you maybe referring to a different type of analog electronics, like discrete analog transistors or power transistors? I think I'll re-word it so that it says analog integrated circuits more specifically. Maestro2016 (talk) 16:25, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't know about others, but there was much discussion last year, the 50th anniversary of Apollo 11, about the Apollo computer, which uses bipolar based RTL. As for dominate, do you count each type of IC, or each one produced?  Some are very popular, produced in large quantities. I am not sure by now about op amps. Bipolars were popular for many years, or bipolar with FET inputs.  Gah4 (talk) 21:53, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I meant other NASA spacecraft, not the Apollo 11. They used MOS for their IMP/Explorers spacecraft. As for analog, the source simply says dominated. The quote: "A recent textbook on the subject of analog integrated circuits (Jorns and Martin, 1997) takes the approach that such circuits are now totally dominated by MOSFETs but includes some BJT applications." I can't exactly quantify it, but that's what it says. Maestro2016 (talk) 23:07, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Early MOSFETs were discrete devices, so size wasn't obvious. They were mostly used where the high input impedance was needed. JFETs were also used early on, where speed was needed. I am still suspicious about the use in analog circuits, where as well as I know, bipolar are still pretty popular. That is, both discrete and IC circuits. The reference given doesn't seem to say that there are more analog MOSFETs than analog bipolars, which is what the statement seems to say. Gah4 (talk) 12:09, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The earliest MOSFETs were around 10-20 micrometers in the '60s. Do you know what was the size of BJTs at the time? As noted by Merlinme above, MOS ICs were used in NASA spacecraft in the '60s because they allowed a higher level of integration. As for analog tech, the source says that MOSFETs dominate analog integrated circuits. Are you maybe referring to a different type of analog electronics, like discrete analog transistors or power transistors? I think I'll re-word it so that it says analog integrated circuits more specifically. Maestro2016 (talk) 16:25, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't know about others, but there was much discussion last year, the 50th anniversary of Apollo 11, about the Apollo computer, which uses bipolar based RTL. As for dominate, do you count each type of IC, or each one produced?  Some are very popular, produced in large quantities. I am not sure by now about op amps. Bipolars were popular for many years, or bipolar with FET inputs.  Gah4 (talk) 21:53, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I meant other NASA spacecraft, not the Apollo 11. They used MOS for their IMP/Explorers spacecraft. As for analog, the source simply says dominated. The quote: "A recent textbook on the subject of analog integrated circuits (Jorns and Martin, 1997) takes the approach that such circuits are now totally dominated by MOSFETs but includes some BJT applications." I can't exactly quantify it, but that's what it says. Maestro2016 (talk) 23:07, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't know about others, but there was much discussion last year, the 50th anniversary of Apollo 11, about the Apollo computer, which uses bipolar based RTL. As for dominate, do you count each type of IC, or each one produced?  Some are very popular, produced in large quantities. I am not sure by now about op amps. Bipolars were popular for many years, or bipolar with FET inputs.  Gah4 (talk) 21:53, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I meant other NASA spacecraft, not the Apollo 11. They used MOS for their IMP/Explorers spacecraft. As for analog, the source simply says dominated. The quote: "A recent textbook on the subject of analog integrated circuits (Jorns and Martin, 1997) takes the approach that such circuits are now totally dominated by MOSFETs but includes some BJT applications." I can't exactly quantify it, but that's what it says. Maestro2016 (talk) 23:07, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I meant other NASA spacecraft, not the Apollo 11. They used MOS for their IMP/Explorers spacecraft. As for analog, the source simply says dominated. The quote: "A recent textbook on the subject of analog integrated circuits (Jorns and Martin, 1997) takes the approach that such circuits are now totally dominated by MOSFETs but includes some BJT applications." I can't exactly quantify it, but that's what it says. Maestro2016 (talk) 23:07, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I meant other NASA spacecraft, not the Apollo 11. They used MOS for their IMP/Explorers spacecraft. As for analog, the source simply says dominated. The quote: "A recent textbook on the subject of analog integrated circuits (Jorns and Martin, 1997) takes the approach that such circuits are now totally dominated by MOSFETs but includes some BJT applications." I can't exactly quantify it, but that's what it says. Maestro2016 (talk) 23:07, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Integrated injection logic and emitter-coupled logic bipolar technologies were used in some LSI and VLSI high-performance microprocessors, surprisingly as late as 1993. But they were rare compared to all the nMOS and CMOS microprocessors surrounding them. Dicklyon (talk) 18:28, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

They also have faster switching speed
The article says: They also have faster switching speed. It seems to me that this is a side effect of the different scaling laws. For many years, it was TTL and especially ECL that were fast, and MOS was slow. Processors were built with TTL logic and MOS memory. Also, an early problem with CMOS was latch-up where parasitic bipolar transistors would cause devices to fail. Avoiding latch-up, and shrinking to make devices faster, eventually allowed CMOS to pass bipolar in switching speed. Gah4 (talk) 21:18, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

New Reference and Links
New sentence added in MOS sensors section to specifically address some of the applications of MOS and MOSFET sensors for sensing gases. One reference added. Two links added. Nanomaterials21 (talk) 19:41, 3 March 2021 (UTC)Nanomaterials 21

Maestro2016 and Jagged 85 cleanup
Hey. Just to let everybody know @Maestro2016 the main contributor to this article and MOSFET applications, as well as hundreds of others has been banned for being sock puppet of banned user @Jagged 85, a well known vandal []. You can see Requests for comment/Jagged 85 and Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/Jagged_85 for more info about him. This article and MOSFET applications contains most of the errors and exaggerations regarding Atalla/MOSFET, introduced into dozens of other articles all across Wikipedia. For instance it exaggerate Attalla and Kahng contribution suggesting that they single-handedly invented MOSFET and all of it's modern application is due to them. I'll copy what I wrote on Transistor talkpage:

"I am currently reading To the Digital Age: Research Labs, Start-up Companies, and the Rise of MOS Technology by Ross Knox Bassett. Bassett is professional historian of science, so his work is as reliable as it gets. I have huge problems with the way this article and other present history of MOS transistor. First of all as Bassett show there was very little new in Attalah and Kahng invention, as Bassett puts it:

"Atalla appears to have conceived it, but it was an invention in a different sense than the transistors of Bardeen and Brattain and Shockley. The invention of both the pointcontact transistor and the junction transistor involved novel effects. The principles that Atalla’s device used were well known; veterans in the field would have recognized them as ones that had been tried without success by Bardeen, Brattain, and Shockley. Atalla recycled these principles using the advanced fabrication techniques that Bell Labs had developed to make diffused bipolar junction transistors. In some sense Atalla’s biggest breakthrough was an intellectual one, thinking that such a device was worth making at all"(page 24). Attalah and Kahng doe not even give this device a name, again from Bassett:

"Atalla and Kahng’s writings provide evidence that even they had ambivalence about what they had done. A name is obviously one of the first steps in the serious consideration of any kind of invention, and Atalla and Kahng’s failure to name their device implies that they saw it as stillborn. They did not even identify their device as a transistor, suggesting a reluctance to even put their work into the same family line as the work of Bardeen, Brattain, and Shockley. Atalla and Kahng’s paper at the 1960 SSDRC did not establish their device as a promising subject for research or even as something recognized by the semiconductor community at large. The conference chairman made no mention of Atalla and Kahng’s work in his brief report on the technical highlights of the conference, although he did mention Bell’s epitaxial transistor. No further work on a device like Atalla and Kahng’s was presented at either the SSDRC or the Electron Device Conference over the next two years. Two articles reviewing the state of the semiconductor field in 1962 made no mention of Atalla and Kahng’s device. Their work seemed to be a dead end".

The reason MOS transistor even received attention was due two factors:first passivation of silicon surfaces by silicon dioxide gave hope the problems of semiconductor surfaces could be resolved, and second invention of integrated circuit change the way transistor are judged, making MOS simplicity attractive to some(page 13). It will take many years and many people working on it to make MOS practical. Again Basset write that, for example in IBM even in 1967 the future of MOS technology was far from clear(page 106). Contribution from people like Wanlass was just as important as Atalla and Kahng work."

To give other example,in MOSFET applications it is said that "MOSFETs are the basis for modern electric road vehicles". The source for that is an obscure 30 years old abstract, which says that "Recent developments in the technology of permanent magnetic materials, power MOSFETs and microcontrollers have opened the way for significant advances in electric vehicle drive systems". Nowhere does it says MOSFET is the basis of modern electric vehicles.This is one example, but it's just a tip of the iceberg. You can also check my edits, where I did cleanup after Maestro2016/Jagged 85 to find many more examples related to source abuse relating to MOSFET and Atalla. In my opinion this article and MOSFET applications should be stabbed, or at very least massively trimmed, because it would simply take too much time to clean them up.

We can add good and neutral pieces of information later, once we verify them. Also according to Banning policy:Anyone is free to revert any edits made in violation of a ban, without giving any further reason and without regard to the three-revert rule. I think other articles edited by Maestro2016/Jagged 85 can be cleaned up, as they are smaller. In general if you see exceptional claim that is sourced by hard-to-check source or you simply can't immediately verify it with high quality source, it should be deleted as this was one of Jagged 85 favorite tactics to introduce disinformation.

Thank you.

DMKR2005 (talk) 18:49, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

 * Yes, please revert much or all of the overstatement of the Atalla and Kahng contributions that were added by Maestro2016/Jagged 85. I'm sure their contribution was valuable and worth mentioning, but the current imbalanced over-emphasis is pretty awful.  I could perhaps help, but am pretty busy with work...  Dicklyon (talk) 02:27, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't quite recall whether Lilienfeld was able to show how to make a working FET. Shockley also "invented" the MOSFET, I think.  But Atalla and Kahng convincingly made one work, iirc.  So that's important.  But to state simply that they "invented" the MOSFET contributes more bias than understanding.  So we should work on that. Not by spamming the names Atalla and Kahng in every possible place, but by discussing the early invention of the FET and MOSFET some place and linking it. Dicklyon (talk) 02:52, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Maestro2016's significant edits to this article were from 27 June 2019 through 12 July 2020. In total, they made nearly 1000 edits. The article grew by 48% during this time. I don't think we need to stub the whole thing. Worst case, we restore the article to its state before this started. Not all of Maestro2016's contributions were problematic but I appreciate that removing them is arguably a safer way to deal with them than reviewing. If we are able to summon the wherewithal to review, we could end up with something better than what we had before Maestro2016 and better than the current revision. ~Kvng (talk) 14:48, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks Dicklyon and Kvng for suggestions. When I said stubbed I mean return to version before Maestro2016/Jagged85 edits. I think that's what we should do. After that we can add more information about Atalla and Kahng contribution. I have Ross Bassett To the Digital Age book with me, which is very good history book about MOSFET. After we return to pre Jagged-85 state, we can add paragraph about Atalla role in MOSFET. There is also MOSFET applications article which is spinoff of this article, and is entirely written by Maestro2016/Jagged 85. What do you think we should do with it? DMKR2005 (talk) 15:17, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * A quick look at MOSFET applications indicates the whole History section should go. I would like to review the rest. I would also like an opportunity to review Maestro2016's changes to this article. I haven't figured out how to do the diff over 1 year and 1000 edits. Any wiki tips would be appreciated. ~Kvng (talk) 15:33, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * If there's anything good in MOSFET applications, it's probably best to merge it into MOSFET and redirect to a section . I have no objection to rolling back MOSFET to a pre-Maestro state, being careful to put back constructive contributions of others if any are there. Dicklyon (talk) 17:43, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I think returning to pre-Maestro2016 state and adding Atalla and Kahng contributions is the way to go. DMKR2005 (talk) 21:24, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I struck my comment about merging applications back to the main article. Maestro did the split, and it was probably a good idea.  Just need to clean up his revisionist emphasis on Atalla everywhere. Dicklyon (talk) 18:32, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Speaking on MOSFET applications we would also need to check this article for errors and exaggeration. See for instance above about MOSFET being the basis for modern electric road vehicles DMKR2005 (talk) 20:55, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I thought most power applications had gone to Si MOSFETs by now, but this article suggests that SiC MOSFETs and Si IGBTs are pretty hot in electric cars. Dicklyon (talk) 00:31, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:MOSFET


text: File:Themaudetitlecard.jpg

title: File:Themaudetitlecard.jpg


text:
Affair of the Placards

The Affair of the Placards (Affaire des Placards) was an incident in which anti-Catholic posters appeared in public places in Paris and in four major provincial cities, Blois, Rouen, Tours and Orléans, in the night of the 17 to 18 October 1534. One of the posters was posted on the bedchamber door of King Francis I at Amboise, an affront and a breach of security that left him shaken. The Affaire des Placards brought an end to the conciliatory policies of Francis, which had formerly attempted to protect the Protestants from the more extreme measures of the Parlement de Paris, and also of the public entreaties for moderation of Philip Melanchthon.

The placards
The placards carried the title "Genuine articles on the horrific, great and unbearable abuses of the papal mass, invented directly contrary to the Holy Supper of our Lord, sole mediator and sole savior Jesus Christ.". This provocative title was a direct attack on Catholic conceptions of the Eucharist. The text supported Zwingli's position on the Mass which denied the Real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

The individual who has been traditionally credited as the chief inspiration, if not the direct author, of the placards, was the French Protestant leader Guillaume Farel, but it seems probable that Antoine de Marcourt, a pastor of Neuchâtel from Picardy, was the real author: Antoine Froment averred that "these placards were made at Neuchâtel in Switzerland by a certain Antoine Marcourd". Writing anonymously the following month, Marcourt took credit for the placards in the address to benevolent readers of his anonymous "Most useful and salutary little treatise of the holy Eucharist", published at Neuchâtel, 16 November 1534, in which he avers "I have been moved by true affection to compose and edit in writing some true Articles on the unbearable abuses of the Mass. Which Articles I wish to be published and posted throughout the public places of the land..."

Aftermath
Processions were announced in all the parishes of Paris for the following Sunday. In Paris, the King himself stood under the canopy where the Most Holy Eucharist was usually carried, making a clear political statement.

In addition, a reward of a hundred écus was advertised for information leading to the arrest of the perpetrator or perpetrators, who were to be burned at the stake. Protestant sympathizers were soon identified and sent to the Châtelet. The first condemnations were pronounced 10 November 1534; the first of those burned at the stake, on 13 November, was a cripple named Barthélemi Milon.

The polemic against the Catholic Church was considered a severe insult to Catholics, and the King now publicly affirmed his Catholic faith. The immediate public outcry necessitated the flight of several prominent Protestant leaders, including John Calvin, and of scholars and poets like Clément Marot.

In another provocative action on 13 January 1535, when François had recently returned to Paris, broadsheets of a tract on the Sacraments were deposited in the streets and doorways of Paris. Later, printing was banned by royal decree.

title: Affair of the Placards


text:
Baseball bat

A baseball bat is a smooth wooden or metal club used in the sport of baseball to hit the ball after it is thrown by the pitcher. By regulation it may be no more than 2.61 in in diameter at the thickest part and no more than 42 in in length. Although historically bats approaching 3 lb were swung, today bats of 33 oz are common, topping out at 34 to 36 oz.

Terminology
A baseball bat is divided into several regions. The "barrel" is the thick part of the bat, where it is meant to hit the ball. The part of the barrel best for hitting the ball, according to construction and swinging style, is often called the "sweet spot." The end of the barrel is called the "top," "end," or "cap" of the bat. Opposite the cap, the barrel narrows until it meets the "handle," which is comparatively thin, so that batters can comfortably grip the bat in their hands. Sometimes, especially on metal bats, the handle is wrapped with a rubber or tape "grip". Finally, below the handle is the "knob" of the bat, a wider piece that keeps the bat from slipping from a batter's hands.

"Lumber" is an often-used slang term for a bat, especially when wielded by a particularly able batter.

The "bat drop" of a bat is its weight, in ounces, minus its length, in inches. For example, a 30-ounce, 33-inch-long bat has a bat drop of minus 3 (30 − 33 = −3). Larger bat drops help to increase swing speed; smaller drops create more power.

History
The bat's form has become more refined over time. In the mid-19th century, baseball batters were known to shape or whittle their own bats by hand, which resulted in a wide range of shapes, sizes, and weights. For example, there were flat bats, round bats, short bats, and fat bats. Earlier bats were known to be much heavier and larger than today's regulated ones. During the 19th century, many shapes were experimented with, as well as handle designs. Today, bats are much more uniform in design.

Innovations

 * On June 17, 1890, Emile Kinst patented the ball-bat, or banana bat. The bat is shaped with a curve, hence the name banana bat. The creator of the bat, Kinst wrote: "The object of my invention is to provide a ball-bat which shall produce a rotary or spinning motion of the ball in its flight to a higher degree than is possible with any present known form of ball-bat, and thus to make it more difficult to catch the ball, or if caught, to hold it, and thus further to modify the conditions of the game".
 * The mushroom bat, made in 1906 by Spalding. With baseball bats being larger in the 1900s the Spalding company designed a larger bat with a mushroom-shaped knob on the handle. This enabled the batter to get a better distribution of weight over the entire length of the bat.
 * The Wright & Ditson Lajoie baseball bat. This bat had a normal size barrel but had two knobs on the handle. The lowest knob was at the bottom of the handle and the other knob was roughly two inches above the lowest knob. This was designed to have better spacing between the hands due to the knob being in the middle of the grip. This also gave batters an advantage when they choked up on the bat, because the second knob provided a better grip with in mushroom shaped handle.
 * In 1990, Bruce Leinert came up with the idea of putting an axe handle on a baseball bat. He filed a patent application for the 'Axe Bat' in 2007 and the bat started being used in the college and pro ranks over the following years. In 2012, the Marietta College Pioneers baseball team won the NCAA Division III World Series using axe-handled bats. Several Major League Baseball players have adopted the bat handle including Mookie Betts, Dustin Pedroia, George Springer, Kurt Suzuki and Dansby Swanson.

Materials and manufacture
Baseball bats are made of either hardwood or a metal alloy (typically aluminum). Most wooden bats are made from ash; other woods include maple, hickory, and bamboo. Hickory has fallen into disfavor over its greater weight, which slows down bat speed, while maple bats gained popularity following the introduction of the first major league sanctioned model in 1997. The first player to use one was Joe Carter of the Toronto Blue Jays. Barry Bonds used maple bats the seasons he broke baseball's single-season home run record in 2001, and the career home run record in 2007. In 2010, the increased tendency of maple bats to shatter caused Major League Baseball to examine their use, banning some models in minor league play.

Manufacturers position each bat's label over the mechanically weaker side of the wood. To reduce chance of fracture, and maybe deliver more energy to the ball, a bat is intended to be held so the label faces sky or ground when it strikes the ball during a horizontal swing. In this orientation, the bat is considered stiffer and less likely to break.

Different types of wood will fracture differently. For bats made of ash, labels will generally be where the grain spacing is widest. For maple bats they will usually be positioned where grain is tightest.

Maple bats in particular were once known (circa 2008) to potentially shatter in a way that resulted in many sharp edges, sometimes creating more dangerous projectiles when breaking. Maple bat manufacture evolved significantly, in cooperation with Major League Baseball, paying special attention to grain slope, and including an ink spot test to confirm safest wood grain orientation.

Based on consistent anecdotal reports of sales at sporting goods stores, and because of the Emerald ash borer epidemic, maple appears to be displacing ash as most popular new baseball bat material in the United States. Next and rising in popularity is bamboo, which has more isotropic fine grain, great strength, and less weight for a bat of any given size.

Within league standards there is ample latitude for individual variation, many batters settling on their own bat profile, or one used by a successful batter. Formerly, bats were hand-turned from a template with precise calibration points; today they are machine-turned to a fixed metal template. Historically significant templates may be kept in a bat manufacturers' vault; for example, Babe Ruth's template, which became popular among major-league players, is R43 in the Louisville Slugger archives. Ruth favored a thinner handle than was the norm in the 1920s, and his success caused most to follow. Ruth used an unusually large bat, which he reduced in size incrementally during his career. In 1920 he was using a 40 inch, 54 ounce bat, made of ash, with a slender handle. In 1928 he wrote, "A few seasons ago I used a 54 ounce bat, long and with the weight well at the end. Now I'm using a 46 ounce club--and each season when I have a new set of bats made, I have an addition ounce taken off.

Once the basic bat has been turned, it has the manufacturer's name, the serial number, and often the signature of the player endorsing it branded into it opposite the wood's best side. Honus Wagner was the first player to endorse and sign a bat. Next, most bats are given a rounded head, but some 30% of players prefer a "cup-balanced" head, in which a cup-shaped recess is made in the head, introduced to the major leagues in the early 1970s by José Cardenal; this lightens the bat and moves its center of gravity toward the handle. Finally, the bat is stained in one of several standard colors, including natural, red, black, and two-tone blue and white.

Environmental threat to ash wood
The emerald ash borer, an exotic beetle imported accidentally from Asia, has killed more than 50 million white ash trees in the eastern United States and in 2017 threatened groves in New York's Adirondack Mountains that are used to make baseball bats. Global temperature rise likely allows the beetle to survive where the climate was once too cold.

Regulations
In the American major leagues, Rule 1.10(a) states: "The bat shall be a smooth, round stick not more than 2.61 inches in diameter at the thickest part and not more than 42 inches in length. The bat shall be one piece of solid wood."

Bats are not allowed to be hollowed or corked—that is, filled with an alien substance such as cork which reduces the weight. This corking is thought to increase bat speed without greatly reducing hitting power, though this idea was challenged as unlikely on the Discovery Channel series MythBusters.

Both wooden and metal alloy (generally aluminum) bats are generally permitted in amateur baseball. Metal alloy bats are generally regarded as being capable of hitting a ball faster and farther with the same power. However, increasing numbers of "wooden bat leagues" have emerged in recent years, reflecting a trend back to wood over safety concerns and, in the case of collegiate summer baseball wood-bat leagues, to better prepare players for the professional leagues that require wood bats. Metal alloy bats can send a ball towards an unprotected pitcher's head up to 60 ft away at a velocity far too high for the pitcher to get out of the way in time. Some amateur baseball organizations enforce bat manufacturing and testing standards which attempt to limit maximum ball speed for wood and non-wood bats.

In high school baseball in the United States:
 * The bat is not permitted to be more than 2+5/8 in in diameter in proximity to width and length.
 * Its "drop" (inches of length minus ounces of weight) must be no more than 3: for example, a 34-inch (863.6‑mm) bat must weigh at least 31 oz.
 * The bat may consist of any safe solid uniform material; the National Federation of State High School Associations rules state only "wood or non-wood" material.
 * To be legally used in a game, an aluminum bat has to be a BBCOR (Batted Ball Coefficient of Restitution) bat because it has been determined that a pitcher loses the ability to protect himself when this ratio is exceeded.

In some 12-year-old-and-under youth leagues (such as Little League baseball), the bat may not be more than 2+1/4 in in diameter. However, in many other leagues (like PONY League Baseball, and Cal Ripken League Baseball), the bat may not be more than 2+3/4 in in diameter.

There are limitations to how much and where a baseball player may apply pine tar to a baseball bat. According to Rule 1.10(c) of the Major League Baseball Rulebook, it is not allowed more than 18 inches up from the bottom handle. An infamous example of the rule in execution is the Pine Tar Incident on July 24, 1983. Rules 1.10 and 6.06 were later changed to reflect the intent of Major League Baseball, as exemplified by the league president's ruling. Rule 1.10 now only requires that the bat be removed from the game if discovered after being used in a game; it no longer necessitates any change to the results of any play which may have taken place.

Rule 6.06 refers only to bats that are "altered or tampered with in such a way to improve the distance factor or cause an unusual reaction on the baseball. This includes, bats that are filled, flat-surfaced, nailed, hollowed, grooved or covered with a substance such as paraffin, wax, etc." It no longer makes any mention of an "illegally batted ball". In 2001, MLB approved the use of Gorilla Gold Grip Enhancer in major and minor league games as an alternative to pine tar.

Care and maintenance
Players can be very particular about their bats. Ted Williams cleaned his bats with alcohol every night and periodically took them to the post office to weigh them. "Bats pick up condensation and dirt lying around on the ground," he wrote, "They can gain an ounce or more in a surprisingly short time." Ichiro Suzuki also took great care that his bats did not accumulate moisture and thus gain weight: he stored his bats in humidors, one in the club house and another, a portable one, for the road. Rod Carew fought moisture by storing his bats in a box full of sawdust in the warmest part of his house. "The sawdust acts as a buffer between the bats and the environment," he explained, "absorbing any moisture before it can seep into the wood."

Many players "bone" their bats, meaning that before games, they rub their bats repeatedly with a hard object, believing this closes the pores on the wood and hardens the bat. Animal bones are a popular boning material, but rolling pins, soda bottles and the edge of a porcelain sink have also been used. Pete Rose had his own way of hardening his bats: he soaked them in a tub of motor oil in his basement then hung them up to dry.

Fungo bat
A fungo bat is a specially designed bat used by baseball and softball coaches for practice. The etymology of the word fungo is uncertain, but the Oxford English Dictionary suggests it is derived from the Scots fung: "to pitch, toss, or fling". A fungo is longer and lighter than a regulation bat, with a smaller diameter. The bat is designed to hit balls tossed up in the air by the batter, not pitched balls. Typical fungo bats are 35 to 37 in long and weigh 17 to 22 oz. Coaches hit many balls during fielding practice, and the weight and length allow the coach to hit balls repeatedly with high accuracy. The small diameter also allows coaches to easily hit pop-ups to catchers and infielders along with ground balls due to better control of the barrel of the bat.

As a weapon
Baseball bats are often used as weapons by civilians, criminals, protesters, and mobsters. Factors that made the baseball bat a popular weapon include:

 * Price: Baseball bats are cheaper to buy and easier to maintain than firearms or bladed weapons.
 * Legality: Unlike firearms, bladed weapons, pepper spray, or stun guns, baseball bats are not considered a weapon by many jurisdictions due to being sporting equipment. However, some jurisdictions may ban carrying sporting equipment in public without good reason.
 * Ease of access: Baseball bats are freely available in stores such as sporting goods stores. They don't require a background check, license, or permit.
 * Ease of use: Baseball bats (like many other bludgeon weapons) only require the user to swing at the target in order for it to be effective.
 * Diversity: Baseball bats come in various sizes from T-ball bats to full size bats. They can cater to the users strength, size, and available storage places.

title: Baseball bat


text:
Ichetucknee River

The Ichetucknee River is a spring-fed, pristine river in North Central Florida. The entire 6 mi of the river average 20 ft wide, 5 ft deep and most of the 6 miles lie within the boundaries of the Ichetucknee Springs State Park while the rest is to the south of US Highway 27. Three Rivers Estates Property Owners (TREPO) is the property owner association that manages the area along the private side of the river as it travels and flows into the Santa Fe River.

The water in the river is crystal-clear and is 72 °F (22 °C) year-round. There are nine named springs within the Ichetucknee Springs group with an average total flow of 212 million gallons per day. The group includes: Ichetucknee Springs, Cedar Head Spring, Blue Hole Spring, Roaring Springs, Singing Springs, Boiling Spring, Grassy Hole Springs, Mill Pond Spring, and Coffee Spring. The Ichetucknee is a tributary of the Santa Fe River, which in turn flows into the Suwannee River before emptying into the Gulf of Mexico.

The park restricts launch and end points along the river, permitting a tube/raft excursion of 45 min, 1.5 or 3 hours. A variety of commercial vendors, located outside the entrance to the park, rent tubes and rafts for a modest fee. Park wildlife includes: North American river otter, North American beaver, turtle, ibis, wood stork, egret, great blue heron, cormorant, anhinga, belted kingfisher, limpkin, wild turkey, wood duck, white-tailed deer, raccoon, nine-banded armadillo, wild boar, The fish are primarily bream, bluegill, largemouth bass, alligator gar, mullet, and catfish. West Indian manatees have been seen in the winter months.

Etymology
The name is probably derived from a Muskogean language, possibly from Creek hvcce-tuccenē "three streams". Another widespread etymology translates it as "beaver pond", perhaps with Creek stems ue- "water" and ecas- "beaver." A Hitchiti informant to anthropologist John R. Swanton pronounced the location Oetcotukni, suggesting a possible derivation from Creek ue-cutoknē "lumpy water", although he translated it as "where there is a pond of water".

History
The 17th-century Spanish Fig Springs mission site has been identified in the park. This is probably the site of Mission San Martín de Timucua, which served the Timucua chiefdom known as the Northern Utina. Plans to reconstruct the mission and open it to the public as an interpretational site were dropped. Benjamin Hawkins listed We-cho-took-[n]e as a Seminole settlement in 1799. The area was abandoned in the mid 19th century due to war, but was later held by American settlers.

The river was a popular swimming and tubing location for locals and University of Florida students up through the 1960s, which led to litter and other problems. The State of Florida purchased the property in 1970 and began a cleanup and restoration project. It was declared a National Natural Landmark in 1972, and became a tourist attraction.

Current threats
In the early 1990s, the springs were showing signs of an even more disturbing degradation: a progressive decline in water quality. The Florida Department of Environmental Protection commissioned studies which showed that nutrient levels were steadily increasing. Additionally, some swimmers and tubers began to report strange skin rashes, possibly caused by algae fed by nutrients introduced into the aquifer.

title: Ichetucknee River


text:
Talk:Maude (TV series)

Disambiguation
This seems like an odd pick for the automatic direction to Maude. Why not have a disambiguation page? Considering the number of figures of this name in history, this would seem justified.

I've upgraded the pictures I previously uploaded. Mike H 20:48, Jul 19, 2004 (UTC)

DVD release
"Maude is currently under consideration for a DVD release."

Does anyone have any proof or a link for this assertion? I am happy to believe it but would love more information. Thanks. Moncrief 21:26, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Since no one seems to have any specific information about this, and it's not clear who is considering it, and under what timeline, I'm going to remove it from the article. If you can site a source or give a bit more information, please re-include. Moncrief 18:08, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I do know that Amazon.com had something suggesting that a DVD of "Maude" was forthcoming. It wasn't clear to me, however, if this was actually in the pipeline, or whether they were collecting votes for it as a matter of interest. It's certainly long overdue for a DVD - and it doesn't have many of the issues that some newer shows have had re: music licensing (ie, the fact that Designing Women's DVD was held up due to music licensing - all the songs that were played on the show, etc.) NickBurns 17:58, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Duh, I say as I look farther down on this page...looks like we do have more recent news.....NickBurns 17:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

French adaption
The French adapted "Maude" into a popular sitcom called "Maguy" which ran from 1985 to 1991 on the French TV channel Antenne 2 (now called France 2).

The wiki link is http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maguy

It's very scary: Maguy is in her 50s, 3x married, husband runs hardware store, friend's a doctor, daughter called Caroline, and likeable housekeeper.

The French page acknowleges "Maude" - could this page link something to "Maguy"?

Possible Maude DVD Release
May wanna' take a look at this to read about the Maude possible DVD release:

http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/newsitem.cfm?NewsID=5653

LLBBooks 11:59, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

move. —Wknight94 (talk) 00:57, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Requested moves

 * Maude (disambiguation) → Maude
 * Maude → Maude (television series) Maude (TV series)

There are several alternative titles that a user might expect when looking for "Maude"; defaulting to a former American television series might satisfy the principle of least surprise for an American audience of a particular generation, but not a modern global audience. An related move of Maude → Maude (television series) would be needed, but this can be done without administrator input given consensus for the move to take place. User:Ceyockey ( talk to me ) 02:49, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Survey

 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with  ~

 * Support. Readers will have no trouble finding the TV series. --Usgnus 22:42, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Add any additional comments

 * Comment. It should be Maude (TV series) per WP:TV-NC. --Usgnus 16:29, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Good Times Spin Off
The idea that Good Times is not a spin-off of Maude is innacurate. No matter what it is based on, if the character from one show leaves to found a new show, that is the definition of "spin-off" I've deleted the pertainant line. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.57.3.94 (talk) 05:39, 6 April 2007 (UTC).

Fair use rationale for Image:Maude S1.JPG
Image:Maude S1.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 03:21, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Maude S1.JPG
Image:Maude S1.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 22:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Abortion
This article states Maude was 'the last TV character to have an abortion'. This can't be true. Didn't both Samantha and Carrie have abortions in Sex and the City, to name but one show? Smurfmeister (talk) 15:55, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Maudestarringbeatricearthur.jpg
Image:Maudestarringbeatricearthur.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 17:03, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Albert and Barney
The text says "Albert and Barney, had died". This is wrong. She definitely divorced Albert. There's an episode where Albert has died and Maude must go spread his ashes over a lake. She says they married on his birthday so he wouldn't forget their anniversary, then she tears up recalling "but I could only stand him for nine months". I think she divorced Barney also, then he had later died, but it's possible she was widowed. It's also possible that the show was inconsistent.  Randall Bart    Talk   23:01, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Poor Albert 8 December 1975 (Season 4, Episode 13). IMDB has no info, but Albert has just died and this is the fourth year of the show. Maybe she was widowed by Barney, but she definitely divorced Albert.  Randall Bart    Talk   00:39, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I have verified that Albert was alive at the beginning of the episode. I shall change the page accordingly, leaving Barney as dead not divorced.  Randall Bart    Talk   02:06, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Brian Morrison passed away ?
It stated "in the late Brian Morrison" what's the source the says he did pass away ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.101.126.36 (talk) 05:43, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Brian Morrison is still alive and with us on this Earth and world we live in. He currently works as a special effects technician in the film industry. He has done special effects for many movies, such as Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, Judge Dredd, Return To Oz and several Harry Potter movies. Just thought I'd point that out. Frschoonover (talk) 15:42, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Pre-distributor
Prior to Columbia TriStar Television Distribution syndicating Maude was there any predecessor such as Viacom Enterprises? Matthew Cantrell (talk) 01:44, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)
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Documentary Series
"The History of TV", about the story of "Maude". 71.247.208.187 (talk) 16:39, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Maude (TV series)