text:
Talk:Geronimo

Wrong footnotes
footnote #19 no longer leads to the proper link. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.93.38.85 (talk) 22:11, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Religion
Did Geronimo embrace Christianity in order to gain favor with the President and gain release? If so, I wouldn't have blamed him.

71.208.219.6 04:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Can we cite our references in this section? It is important to recognize different perspectives that see "the facts" a little bit differently. I will try to find the source for Geronimo's Christian beliefs. But I want to make sure that a decendant stated that Geronimo 'returned to the teachings of his childhood,' before I attribute it. Personally, I can accept and understand the basis for both statements, Thanks --Rcollman 12:38, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

 * After an extensive search, I could not find any confirmation that Geronimo renounced Christianity. There was a point where he lapsed back into alcoholism, but he returned to his church after that. Since there's no evidence on what his deathbed beliefs were, it would be better to say nothing than risk misinforming the public. 130.91.183.25 19:53, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

 * I AM a once removed (his brother is my great-great-grandfather) descendant of Geronimo, and what has been passed down to me from my father (who is full blood Bedonkohe)is that although he converted to Christianity later in life, he returned to his traditional teachings before he died. This is not to say that he did not still respect Christianity, for being a medicine man he respected all forms or religion. That touches on another point; nowhere in the article does is mention that he was a medicine man. This is another facet of his life that was handed down to me through my father for it is custom to introduce yourself to other using your lineage. For me that would be, (and some of this is in the native tongue)"Yatahe, My father is White-Bear and he is a medicine man, (my grandfather deviated from the family lineage due to alcoholism) my great-grandfather was medicine man, my great-great-grandfather was medicine man, my great-great-granduncle was Geronimo and he was medicine man, and I am Itza-cho and I am medicine man. So you see, this is an oral line that has be carried on for generations. There are also literal references to his being a medicine man before anything else.
 * I ask this, with my ancestry, consider the addition of his returning to his traditional teachings (how could he be an Inde-indi [the common name that they Apache used to refer to themselves] medicine man and a follower of the Christian religion...that seems at the least contradictory), and that it be added in the Religion section that he was a medicine man.Itzacho (talk) 06:47, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

deletion
"he was a brave idian who almost lead raids but was always caught before he could start his raids on the mexaicans and americans.He dislike resereions so him and his followers escaped a couple times like 5 to 4 times does not belong under Religion.

Geronimo was brave but the americans did not have a good record of keeping him from leaving the reservations they put him in. Reservations had no fences to keep people in or out, they were not like Forts. The Chiruchua Apache bands (Geronimo's group) were probably moved (but not caught) from different reservations the most and constantly tried to return to their homeland (big surprise). They had to take livestock and food from others (in 'raids') to survive when they were on the run or when they were starving while living on a reservation. --Rcollman 16:38, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Biography Comments by Rcollman 26 November 2006 (UTC)
I apologize if my edits offend anyone. I tried to keep many of the words and ideas and don't believe I really added anything "new".

In the edit of this section, I relied upon his autobiography and then other books cited in the references. He was a very traditional Chiricahua Apache by his own account. I have tried to stay away from more obvious judgements and non-traditional romantic characterizations. Obviously, he had no love for those who killed or raided his people. And obviously the feeling was often mutual.

I called him a military leader because that is the best, shortest translation for a non-Apache reader. He said he was never a "chief". I did find lots of references by non-Chiricahua Apaches that state he was a cheif and/or a medicine man. While Geronimo uses the term "Mexicans", he clearly says that units of the Mexican Army killed his family and he initially sought revenge against them. Likewise, I prefer not to use "Apache" by itself, unless it refers to non-native americans (grin).

I confess, I put the biography section into more of a timeline (my cultural preference). I left and edited the description about his autobiography because I am a big fan of oral history and I like Turner's introduction. --Rcollman 15:30, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Application server called Geronimo
The mention of the Geronimo Application server should probably be on a disambiguation page and not linked from the main article. All in all any Indian chief, latin word or famous place probably has a product named after it. Its probably not relevant from the article.

I agree that the gernimo server doesn't deserve mention on this page under popular culture.

I also agree the geronimo server should not be on this page.

Geronimo vs. Geromino
Both these names are used in the article. Is there a reason for that?
 * commonly known as a "typo", probably a dyslexic typo. I make mistakes like that when I work too long w/o sleep.  But on the other hand, if the soldiers of the first revenge incident after the death of Goiapla's other, wife and small children were indeed appealing to St.Jerome, then Geronimo might make sense.  If that is the case, it should be stated and refd in the article, or omitted.  Rags (talk) 09:28, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Mexicans
''...he hated all Mexicans for the rest of his life. His Mexican friends gave him the nickname...''

This is confusing, to say the least :-) --Calair 00:03, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

How come The Mexicans massacred Geronimo's family in 1858. Mexico lost its territoru in 1848, and ten years later New Mexico was U.S.A land. It was hard for Mexican army to be inside U.S.A Territory.

I think that 1858 should be changed to 1851 in this section. The date of the massacre of his family led by Carrasco is given as March 5, 1851 later in the article (listed as March 5, 1858 in this section). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cbisbee4 (talk • contribs) 22:38, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

(True but he traveled between the two counties) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.20.221.71 (talk) 19:05, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Also, you said the name of Geronimo probably was given for the Spanish Fortress of Sain Jeronome. Well, first the spaniers don't speak french, so the proper name should be "Fuerte de San Geronimo", second, Spain abandoned those lands after the Mexican Independence in 1821.

Please check you data. - Agreed with your comments, except one. He was in Mexico - that fact is correct, your assumption about how the Apache lived is not correct :)

Geronimo and his family went with the rest of their band to a village in Mexico to trade. This was a centuries old custom. And it was dangerous for everyone. As in the U.S., while the Mexican (and Spainish before them) military's job was to protect the civilians, it did not answer to the leadership of a town (this point was often lost upon those who traded with the towns). It is hard to say if the town/village was part of the plot to ambush the band Geronimo was with. This would not be unheard of. Geronimo says the military did it in Mexico and he definately knew the border in later life.

I have no clue about how he got his non Apache name. Definately part of folklore. However, Genonimo does quote a Mexican officer using that name for him. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Mexico#French_Intervention French, I love it. Was looking for Mexican history links to Apache Wars. There was the Pastry Rebellion in 1830 somethings. I also doubt the Hapsburg influence extended to the troops and the timeframe is a little shakey.] You forgot to add that St. J was the patron saint of translators, librarians and encyclopedists, so I think this must be part of WikiLore. I think I will let somebody else change it !

Very thoughtful reading and good comments.

Photographs of Skeleton Canyon
I went on a tour this morning of Skeleton Canyon, including the capture site of Geronimo, and took some photographs. The relevant one of the pile of stones marking the surrender site is available on Commons if someone sees it fit to add to the page. --LoganCale (talk | contribs) 22:50, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Hell(tori)
What does this mean in the first para of the biography section? It's been there since the first version of the article. Rojomoke 09:47, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Native American religion?
"Geronimo was raised with the traditional religious view of the Native Americans but by his own testimony this system left many questions unanswered." That suggests that Native Americans by and large held more or less the same religious view. I don't really know, but that seems very unlikely. 140.147.160.78 19:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC)Stephen Kosciesza

Ditto. In 1905-6 he sure sounded like a traditional "Apache". The "testimony" probably refers to a sentence in Geronimo-His Own Story, a chapter at the end called "Religion", where he is trying to understand the concept of afterlife on page 178. I smiled at the translation which came out "I have seen many bodies decay but no one has ever told me what part of man lives after death." He concludes that he can not understand the Christian viewpoint of this.

Funny that assumming he converted for the last 2 years of his life, so much space on this page is taken up by his Christian beliefs. My next kindly edit perhaps --Rcollman 16:12, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Geronimo was a Medicine Man. He is often referred to as a Leader and Chief due to his bravery and high respect from his peers.

 * My opinion, calling him a Medicine Man, or a Chief out of respect is fine. However, these are not Apache or Chiricahua terms.  I would feel comfortable in calling a priest, monk, deacon, bishop and pope, as "Reverend", or even "Medicine Man" for that matter and mean it in a respectful manner. Likewise a president (political or corporate), mayor, public safety or military official can also (and sometimes are) be respectufully addressed as Chief  but their roles in their society can be very different.  --Rcollman 13:41, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the reference to Geronimo's conversion to Christianity (or at least that the though Apaches should embrace Christianity) is well documented enough with the reference given that it should stand 71.117.216.13 (talk) 12:29, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Skull and Bones
In the paragraph about the theft of his remains the line "– including Prescott Bush, father and grandfather of Presidents George H.W. Bush and George W. Bush respectively – " is out of place, it seems to imply that the Bush family had something to do with the theft. Did they?

 * 8YES! Prescott Bush not only helped the Nazis, but also personally dug the remains of Geronimo and disgraced his family. Just google it!--Persianhistory2008 11:20, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

My reading on this is that there is no proof that Geronimo's grave was robbed by the Skull and Bones at Yale, much less that Prescott Bush had anything to do with it. Even the cited reference casts serious doubt on the validity of the claim. This is just more Bush bashing and doesn't belong in an article about Geronimo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.117.216.13 (talk) 12:14, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Added Cecil Adams cite on this matter. While it is a colorful tale. the evidence for it is quite lacking entirely. Collect (talk) 16:11, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Shouting "Geronimo" ...
... why do some people shout "Geronimo" when they jump down from somewhere? 84.115.129.76 09:35, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * WW2 American paratroopers originated the custom during stateside training; legend (possibly true) says it started on a dare: http://ask.yahoo.com/20060315.html rewinn 03:46, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The story as handed down at the U.S. Army Airborne School, Ft. Benning, Georgia, is that two men got into a bet regarding the fear of a first jump. They agreed that if the subject of the bet had the presence of mind to shout something specific into the air as he left the airplane, then he would have demonstrated his fearlessness.  The men agreed on "Geronimo" as something that would not ordinarily come to mind and would demonstrate clear thought.  For a time, this became tradition.  I'm pretty sure I can dig up a published source for this if necessary, but it's probably too trivial for this article.  Rklawton (talk) 03:39, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Birthplace?
According to this source, there is apparently dispute over whether Geronimo was born in New Mexico or Arizona. Which birthplace should the article use? RJaguar3 | u  |  t  16:35, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Software name
I think there is room on wikipedia (best on a disambiguation page) for the fact that a non-profit software company may have named a computer application with the name of a great native warrior. But it should not be prominently on the page of this great warrior who never used electricity when he was in his prime. RJaguar, i never removed the fact that a computer company made an application with this great warrior's name (even though that is what you believe, from the messages you sent me)....., i merely moved it to the bottom of the names list.
 * I'm sorry, I did not see that it was moved. I agree.  However, next time, be sure to use the edit summary features so that it is clear what you are doing.  RJaguar3 |  u  |  t  03:24, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism
The biography began with "Gay boy (Geronimo)..." - I went ahead and changed that to the original beginning. IP address of the guy who did it is 71.226.60.30 - history shows he's made 'revisions' to the NEXTEL Cup article and the Disturbed (band) article.

-LedFloyd —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.133.123.219 (talk) 01:16, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

 * I reverted all 7 vandalism edits made by 71.226.60.30 and posted a Level 1 Warning on his or her talk page. I also requested semi-protection, since the page has been vandalized multiple times in the past.--PsychoPiglet (talk) 12:20, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I declined protection. All of those vandalism edits went unfixed for 10 hours!  Anyone reading this please watchlist this article because vandalism going unfixed for that long is a travesty.  —Wknight94 (talk) 12:24, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Date of birth
This says he was "almost certainly" born before 1829, despite Geronimo's own testimony. -- JackofOz (talk) 01:26, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

"almost certainly before June" is my (uneducated) guess, rather than "almost certainly before 1829". I've recently read a few biographies of Geronimo (the standard public library fare, that my kid took out for a school report, and I read out of curiousity), they all said that the month of Geronimo's birth is unknown (although Geronimo himself later claimed "June") due to differences between contemporary Apache and European timekeeping. None said there was any disagreement about the year. This leads me to a question, though. Where does the specific date June 16th come from? There's no reference cited. Everything I've read has said that the exact month is uncertain, let alone a date within the month. Mbgbystander (talk) 00:27, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

 * That's a very good question. Anyone know where the 16th came from?  If it can't be cited, it needs to be removed.  --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   06:38, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

 * Geronimo himself wrote that he was born in June, 1829. I doubt that his mother had a calendar on hand in No-doyohn canyon, so the exact date is probably not known. —Stephen (talk) 07:43, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

 * Three years on: I've removed all reference to the 16th of the month from the article. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  12:18, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Lawton - source
If a gnome has a minute to format this - it goes with the section about Geronimo's capture:

 * Rau, R., Lawton-Forgotten Warrior A Commemorative Biography, Copyright 1998 Library of Congress

Rklawton (talk) 03:41, 3 September 2008 (UTC) (no relation to the subject)

Popular Culture
Sorry - re-posting comment because I didn't sign: Has anyone noticed that it says he jumped off Medicine Bluff on his "Cadillac horse?" Is this vandalism to tie-in the song? Or am I missing something? Legume420 (talk) 19:17, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Popular culture
This section has gotten way out of hand. Would there be any ojbections if I trimmed it back significantly? Rklawton (talk) 14:23, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Seconded. Please do. JNW (talk) 14:25, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * OMG please, yes. We don't need a list of everytime someone yelled "Geronimo" when jumping off something. --Evb-wiki (talk) 14:40, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The only ones I could see keeping are the 501st Parachute Infantry Regiment reference and possibly the Liberty ship. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 16:29, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

OK, I removed a lot of the "he was mentioned stuff" - but left in representative examples that appear less trivial. Keep in mind that readers can access tons of trivial stuff by clicking the article's "what links here" link. Rklawton (talk) 17:30, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

 * Added paratrooper info with reference and short cut. He was a big part of the airborne for a long time.  Not just the 501st.Logjam42 (talk) 19:20, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

 * The Military Usage section in the main article does not mention Forward Operating Base Geronimo, which has a Wikipedia stub. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward_Operating_Base_Geronimo.  This has the potential to become interesting as there is a proposal to change the names of US military installations currently named for people who have taken up arms against the US.  This would presumably include Geronimo and any other Native Americans thus honored. Tomligon (talk) 19:48, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

geronimo
who is geronimo hr wdwnerh232  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.150.75.75 (talk) 16:24, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Im a young Scotsman aged 32, married, living in Inverkip, Scotland. Geronimo was a better man than me im sure. I always find that when I look at Native American faces I am struck by how inspiring and interesting and majestic they are. Unlike empty and uninteresting contemptuous pampered modern faces have become.

A face that is genuine and looks like the knowlegable old is superior to a face that only describes hollow young shallow stupid vanity, as per the modern face. Long live the real ancient clans and real, fair, human existence...............modern America & History & Democracy..............Dont be daft. Ha Ha(Bren) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thisdudeisgood (talk • contribs) 22:55, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Don't you know that you can't tell character from a face? Kostaki mou (talk) 00:50, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Born at the age of 179?
Was he an ancestor of Benjamin Button? I tried to correct the caption, but couldn't get in it to edit it. Kostaki mou (talk) 00:50, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

His name
The article seems to indicate his name was actually "Goyaałé", but does not say how it went from that to "Geronimo".--Ericjs (talk) 07:25, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Yale Letter
I couldn't find the links to the letter owned by Yale that substantiates the claim of theft. Here are the links: http://images.library.yale.edu/madid/showthumb.aspx?q=322

http://images.library.yale.edu/madid/oneItem.aspx?id=1777201&q=322&q1=&q2=&qc1=&qc2=&qf1=&qf2=&qn=&qo=&qm=&qs=&sid=&qx= http://images.library.yale.edu/madid/oneItem.aspx?id=1777202&q=322&q1=&q2=&qc1=&qc2=&qf1=&qf2=&qn=&qo=&qm=&qs=&sid=&qx= http://images.library.yale.edu/madid/oneItem.aspx?id=1777203&q=322&q1=&q2=&qc1=&qc2=&qf1=&qf2=&qn=&qo=&qm=&qs=&sid=&qx=

I'm not sure how to include these, but I think they should go into the article. If they are already there somewhere, and I missed them, please excuse me. Thank you 206.109.195.126 (talk) 01:38, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Native American?
Natives of America born outside of the USA or Canada are conciderd Latinos or Hispanics and not Native. Are Maya's native NO are Aztecs native No are Inca's native no so why is Geronimo? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.134.154.25 (talk) 18:23, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

 * Calling them Latinos or Hispanics is an artifact of people in the U.S. being blind to the distinction. In Chiapas, (a state in southern Mexico), there is a distinction made between Spaniards, indigenous (closest English word), and everyone else.  Spaniards are the unusually fair skinned types of Spanish descent, indigenous are natives who maintain their traditional culture, and everyone else is plain Mexican.  The Mayan tribes in the area (contrary to popular belief, the Mayans are not a monolithic group, so no one calls a tribe Maya, they call it by it's more specific name) do not consider themselves Mexican; the Mexican governments attempts to force the issue started the Zapatista rebellion and eventually led to some tribes gaining a status somewhat similar to that of the U.S.'s reservations; the law is tribal, with reduced interference from the central government.  Similarly, the recent populist movements in Bolivia and Ecuador were partially driven by those that consider themselves natives, not Hispanics.  And this is all in the 21st century.  In Geronimo's time, the West was not nearly as populous as today, and American culture had not disseminated in many areas.  Claiming that over a hundred years ago, Geronimo did not count as a native is willfully blind. ShadowRangerRIT (talk) 21:43, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Real Native Americans
Native Americans have changed from the time the first Europeans came to the lands we now call Canada, United States, and Mexico. Native Americans have always been on these lands. They did not come across the Bering Strait. Life did not just evolve in Asia, Europe, and Africa, if you believe in evolution. Life existed in these lands too long before the words race, color, or nationality came into the scene. How is it that people were here long before Europeans came to these lands? Another interesting question is how is it that people already existed in eastern countries? Where did they come from? Did all things come from Europe first? Was this part of the earth empty like the moon we know? Who knows since there are no written records that can be officially confirmed by anybody that is truly credible? Native Americans were conquered by Europeans but you can still see Native Americans today in the people that look like Native Americans or that we call Native Americans. Native Americans today are the offspring of early Native Americans and Europeans that have not been allowed to feel at home even though these lands have always been there home. We have been made to feel like we don't belong anywhere. This is not acceptable. Maybe, there is a sensible reason for this or maybe this will change in a humane way in the distant future. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.25.171.30 (talk) 02:54, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

 * All the evidence does point to Native Americans arriving via the Bering Straight. Native Americans are most closely related to the people of NW Asia. Yes, there were people here long before Europeans arrived, the crossed the Bering Straight according to current estimates around 13,000 years ago. Prior to that, there was of course life in the Americas, just no people. There is of course no written evidence, but plenty of archaeological evidence. Of course there are still Native Americans, and there has been various degrees of intermarriage.--RLent (talk) 17:59, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Alleged theft of skull: removal of the term "urban legend"
Alleged theft of skull: removal of the term "urban legend". The claim is clearly not an "urban legend" and therefore can not be labelled one. Since it is abundantly clear that when there exists evidence (as in police evidence, often referred to as "leads", or indications of probability if one will, but not 'evidence', as in "proof positive"), hence, whenever you have some or more evidence, indications of any kind that point to certain events that coincide with what needs to take place for actual events to actually have unfolded in a hypothesised manner, you then have a certain value or indication of a degree and order of probability. The more such evidence or indication of possibility, the higher the degree of probability, therefore, this cannot in any way shape or form be described as or said to be consistent with the term "urban legend".

The article itself states as a presumably verifiable fact that we have several such indications, and whatever value is ascribed to its degree of probability:

"[..]received an anonymous letter with a photograph and a copy of a log book claiming that Skull & Bones held the skull." and "[..]6 members of skull and bones were stationed at Fort Sill."

The Secret Society is also named Skull and Bones and has an insignia of a skull with cross bones, so it is neither unreasonable nor improbable but rather highly probable that such a society would seek to possess several versions of its insignia as is the custom and tradition for most all societies.

It is not urban legend that such societies or indeed any society of young men to seek notoriety and fame through similar such and other actions, indeed it is possible to say that similar actions are tradition throughout the north atlantic cultures, if not even further afield. So it can be held that it is both a tradition and a commonplace activity for youth to engage in a variety of actions that are analogous with the suggested events.

it is therefore more than likely enough that the possibility is, not merely possible and probable, but it also contains a degree of judicial likelihood as well as a degree of probability already far greater than evidence that indicates improbability, in fact there is absolutely no evidence or indication to suggests that the events could not have taken place. Urban legends are commonly and for the most part characterised by the very fact that they have been discounted in one ore more ways or forms.

Similarly, the claim that Lee Harvey Oswald killed John F. Kennedy is not an "urban legend" even though there is no proof positive that Oswald actually perpetrated the crime, however else likely or unlikely,substantiated or unsubstantiated it may or may not be.

The order of probability can even be a mathematically objective one since it can even be given an order of probability through giving or assigning a value to each necessary element that is needed for the event to be actual fact, wherein the order can even be assigned unknown values to account for lacking evidence of series of events needed for the equation to hold true, this is a method which is commonly utilised by the scientific community and indeed is both the basis and a necessity for much of the research in our present time and culture.

Any equation or Game theory and the feasibility of the outcome, allows for it to be both a possibility and a probability no matter what order, and can therefore not by any stretch of the imagination be labelled an "urban legend", similarly other postulations on historic events that contain similar indications are never characterised as urban legend.

If this is not accepted as the case much if not most completely verifiable and commonly held historic research must be deemed or characterised "urban legend" and given such a qualifier. This is clearly not reasonable for all matters that are subject to ambiguity or further historical research as this case also must be considered as being subject to. It is at the present an allegation that has a degree of plausibility and possibility that can be assigned likelihood according to research and analogous events and similar cases in a scientific manner no matter the degree of likelihood of correctness of the resulting answer.

We have here in actual fact several very likely and highly possible indications (more than one or two) and greater levels of probability that have more possible and probable positive outcomes for the alleged suggestion to hold true, than we have of any discounted or negative indications that indicate negative values, or indications that the alleged act could not have taken place. In fact we have absolutely no evidence that indicates that it is more logical to discount the possibility, or that even points to such a dismissal as being a reasonable conclusion to draw for the greatest amount of accuracy to be achieved.

I do not wish to enter into any lengthy and tiresome debates on this, which is why I have tried to make this as exhaustive a reasoning as possible to prevent unclarity. Thank you for your time, I hope this is sufficient to avoid wasting any more time on the matter. Sincerely. Nunamiut (talk) 22:42, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Birth place
Seems to me at least, that if the birth place is listed as Gila River, Mexico under the assumption that it was not New Mexico at the time, I would argue that it was not the "Gila River" at that time either. For consistency with the text, you could add "present-day" New Mexico. But I for one was confused by the use of Mexico in the info-box, whereas it was adequately explained where space was not so limited in the text. Pinethicket (talk) 15:01, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll grant, it's not as cut and dry as I thought when I made the revert. It would help if there were some general policy for this (use date of event or use modern day designation).  Either one seems likely to lead to confusion, and full details are generally too long for the infobox. -ShadowRangerRIT (talk) 17:13, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That's why I thought consistency was the best policy--all new names or all old names but not a combination. So to me, Gila River, New Mexico is OK; Rio Gila, Mexico is OK.  But in my opinion, there was never a Gila River, Mexico (although I admit that it had me studying the map!).  I'll look around and see how others handle this issue; it is not unique to this article. Pinethicket (talk) 23:03, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

At Geronimo's birth date, the territory of present day Arizona was part of Mexico. What's the point of calling it "under Mexican occupation"? That first the Spanish and later Mexican authorities never asked for permission or something to the original inhabitants of the land? If that's the case, all references to the same territories after the Mexican Cession should be called "under U.S. occupation" for the very same reasons... For the good or the bad, that territory was undisputed Mexican territory back then, so the correct way to refer to them should be "part of Mexico then" or the like. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.233.37.48 (talk) 23:59, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

error on birthdate?
The Spanish wikipedia says he was born six years earlier. Which is correct? 98.71.218.248 (talk) 18:48, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

 * He was born in June, 1829. —Stephen (talk) 19:19, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

The Spanish wiki doesn't appear to have a supporting citation.

His family was the Bedonkohe branch of the Chiricahua Nation. He gave his own birth date as June 1829, but he was almost certainly born before that. His place of birth is still in question, but it is known to be located near the headwaters of the Gila River, possibly near present-day Clifton, Arizona. At the time of his birth, this area was part of Mexico.

There does appear to be some doubt as there are no records, perhaps we should take his word for it.Off2riorob (talk) 19:21, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
 * There are sources citing the 1823 birthdate, I believe Adams is one.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 19:26, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

 * Yes, please present them here for appraisal, thanks. Adams, ok, I think we should allow Geronimo some good faith, there are no records at all, so.. His statement is more than enough for me. Off2riorob (talk) 19:48, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Here's 6 I found within 5 minutes:

, , , , , --Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 19:53, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Personally I prefer to allow him the benefit of the doubt although we could add somewhere..He gave his own birth date as June 1829, but various authors have disputed that date and suggest he was born earlier in 1823. Off2riorob (talk) 20:04, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

One of those cites was written the tear of his death in 1909. So this is not revisionist history. In his autobiography he lists his place of birth as No-doyohn Canon, AZ, too.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 20:17, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
 * As I said there were and are no records, there are various claims, personally I don't have a problem with this, I have not read his autobio that I presume he dictated, I also imagine when he was born borders were non existent, do you see any of the details presently in the article as a big issue in need of correcting? Off2riorob (talk) 20:26, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

 * See Date of Birth above. --   Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  21:49, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Battles of the Apache Wars Geronimo fought?
The article could certainly use some references to and brief synopsis of the battles Geronimo fought - given his reputation as a warrior. I added a link in the lede to the Apache Wars which briefly covers the period.Tttom1 (talk) 06:14, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Geronimo Name origin
Geronimo is actually a Spanish name. Goyahkla (Geronimo's original name) and his people had arrived in the town to trade, the women and children were left in a wash(Safe place) to wait for them while they did their business. A mob from another area arrived and murdered most of them. When Goyahkla came out of town to where they were and saw what had happened, he and his people retreated out of mexico. He was so grief strucken that he wanted to die, which was against his people's beliefs. He returned to mexico and killed every man in sight wanting to die a warrior's death. A young Spanish officer had arrived from Spain into one of the area's Goyahkla was killing in. The officer witnessed Goyahkla, and said that he reminded him of a character named Geronimo from a popular play in Spain. The character's wife and kids had been murdered and he went out for vengeance hoping to die, but was extremely brave.

That is straight from Geronimo's 100 year old nephew. Every thing else is either a right out lie or somehow divergent from this. http://ia700306.us.archive.org/5/items/BVRN123108/show_317029_joined.mp3 Robert Morgan talks about Geronimo's nephew and similar things. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.158.142.180 (talk) 07:06, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

 * No it's Not! That's another misunderstanding by the Anglos (Americans always thinking every latin sounding name is 'Spanish' they can't tell the difference between Italian/Portuguese). Behindthename has Geronimo is an ITALIAN name http://www.behindthename.com/name/geronimo. It's Spanish form is Jerónimo from the Greek name Jerome (given name) and it's pronounced differently with an "H" sound.--76.213.230.71 (talk) 20:40, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

 * Sorry, you're close but you've got it backwards and you aren't quoting your source accurately; the hate speech is unnecessary and hypocritical when you yourself apparently can't tell the difference between Spanish and Italian. Geronimo is Spanish, from the Greek Jerome according to your source but more likely from the Latin form of the Greek Hieronymos; Jeronimo is the Italian version. Canonblack (talk) 16:29, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

How is Goyaałé pronounced? According to Southern Athabaskan languages, "aa" could be, "ł" could be and "é" could be a high. But that doesn't match the other transcriptions. In the archive.org mp3 above they say something like .--88.73.25.226 (talk) 18:17, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

 * What other transcriptions? It is pronounced . —Stephen (talk) 18:35, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Powers
According to the article, "[Geronimo] was one of many people with special spiritual insights and abilities known to Apache people as "Power". Among these were the ability to walk without leaving tracks; the abilities now known as telekinesis and telepathy; and the ability to survive gunshot (rifle/musket, pistol, and shotgun)." That seems unlikely.--216.165.45.145 (talk) 02:03, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Secret Society
The multiple links under  'Alleged theft of skull' for  - Yale secret society of Skull and Bones -  seem somewhat inappropriate. The Yale Secret Society of Skull and Bones is one organisation - linking it to three articles is no help at all. A bit like Lord Privy Seal (term) --John Price (talk) 21:50, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Song about Geronimo
Funny enough that nobody ever mentioned a song about Geronimo. Maybe because its singer, Lorne Greene is normally known as a Bonanza actor? Well, don't underestimate this guy's singing abilities; his baritone is quite rich and got this typical storyteller's timbre needed for these kinds of songs. Said Greene did "Geronimo" back in 1965. Just thought I'd prevent it from falling into oblivion. -andy 217.50.63.227 (talk) 12:31, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Is military usage very different from popular usage?
I wonder if we may possibly by doing our readers a bit of a disservice by having one section on military usage being about the naming of the Bin Laden raid, while walling off its traditional usage by the military regarding Geronimo's name being a cry of valor when jumping out of an airborne military vehicle and into a dangerous and possibly fatal hostile situation. I'm not saying there's a definitive connection per WP:OR, but by splitting those two uses up, we may be somewhat capriciously preventing our readers to decide whether or not there might be a connection.

But I know this is a sensitive subject so I wanted to give fair warning before I any further considered the possibly merging the sections into something like "In military and popular culture". -- Kendrick7talk 04:42, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

As there was no objection, I've gone ahead with the reorg. -- Kendrick7talk 01:04, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Undue weight to Skull and Bones controversey, questionable military references
1) The Skull and Bones section seems unnecessarily long for the overall length of the article, given that it is essentially a historical footnote in the grand scheme of all things related to Geronimo. Additionally, there are a collection of dead links or questionable ones. I think this really needs to be pared down to a paragraph at most. It can essentially be summed up as, "there have been persistent rumors and lawsuits alleging that Yale's Secret Society of Skull and Bones appropriated Geronimo's skull and other effects, which the society denies." Anything else is bringing up big questions of notability and due weight in the article. It certainly doesn't need to be anywhere near as long as it is. It is completely out of proportion to the rest of the article. It's essentially competing allegations and denials. Unless anyone disagrees soon, I will make a proposed edit. I have absolutely no dog in the Skull and Bones fight, I just think the section has been grossly over-reported here.

2) I like the interesting bit about the military use of Geronimo as a valor phrase. However, I question whether the b-westerns.com source is reputable. Please add another, or a more reputable, source, or delete this content. 204.65.34.204 (talk) 23:05, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Faux-gubernatorial?
The initial summary suggests that he surrendered "to Arizona faux-gubernatorial authorities". Am I wrong in interpreting the rest of the article as saying that he surrendered to the federal army, and not to any Arizona authorities, faux, gubernatorial or otherwise?

Willhsmit (talk) 13:38, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

 * Yes, it seems that puzzling phrase first entered the article as part of a group of edits by an IP editor on 12 April 2014, and has persisted for no evident reason. It should be eliminated.  I support reverting to the prior phrasing, "In 1886 Geronimo surrendered to US authorities after a lengthy pursuit. As a prisoner of war in old age, he became a celebrity and appeared in fairs[footnote], but was never allowed to return to the land of his birth."

 * I would also be fine with restoring the rest of that paragraph as it then existed: "He later regretted his surrender and [claimed] that the US government had broken the promises made to secure it. Geronimo died in 1909 from complications of pneumonia at Fort Sill, Oklahoma." (But the word "claimed" should be replaced by "stated" or something similarly neutral, given WP:CLAIM.)--Arxiloxos (talk) 18:37, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Intrigued by rifles
I just noticed that, in the photo of Geronimo with his 3 kinsmen (about one-third down from top of page), he seems to be holding an obsolete flint-action musket and they seem to have the latest military technology, repeating lever-action rifles. I don't know weps and could have the details wrong, but this strikes me as unexpected. Anyone know more? Was there ever any question about his authority relative to other warriors?

BTW I'm putting my comments here because someone has started crossing off text and since they didn't close that effect, my notes were also shown as crossed out. Just one more way Wikipedia militates against new and occasional editors... Also, my personal preference is for "External Links Modified" to go together at the very end of the talk page. alacarte (talk) 21:06, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

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Lack of background: Catholicism and Spanish heritage
Geronimo was a Catholic believer as well as a Spanish speaker. The traditional WASP interpretation of him being a beast that hadn't had any contact with "white males" is far from being true. He was educated by Spanish-speaking Catholic monks and he studied Law. “Gerónimo” (Spanish for Jerome) is a Christian name that he received when he got baptized as a Catholic.

We have to understand that his biography has been silenced since he had committed three sins: he was not only a non-white man (enough to be killed by the US Army during that time), but also a Catholic (unacceptable for a Protestant nation) and a Hispanic (unacceptable for an Anglo-Saxon nation). DiegoPonga (talk) 03:53, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
 * The origin of his name Geronimo is perfectly plausible. Can you present sources for that? (Please note than being a speaker of Spanish does not make one Hispanic. Ranchers along the border normally speak Spanish; those who are gringo are often stereotypically gringo.) Barefoot through the chollas (talk) 20:23, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

Impossible to be born in Arizpe, Sonora and in New Mexico
Geronimo was born to the Bedonkohe band of the Apache, in Arizpe, Sonora, near Turkey Creek, a tributary of the Gila River in the modern-day state of New Mexico

The text above makes no sense. Arizpe, Sonora, on the Río Sonora well down into modern Sonora and far from the Gila or any of its tributaries, is nowhere near the tributary of the Gila that runs north of Silver City, New Mexico and that's known as Turkey Creek. Barefoot through the chollas (talk) 22:16, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Barefoot through the chollas This Quora answer might explain the inconsistencies in this article. https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-facts-about-Native-Americans-that-you-won-t-find-on-Wikipedia/answer/Ale-Rez Harlyn35 (talk) 17:54, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the heads up. Not sure how much is explained, though. There's this: "He was baptized at birth on the 1st of June 1829 in the Parish of Asuncion de Maria in Arizpe (Mexico)", but no indication that I see of a source. Also, the author seems a bit confused, referring to the Turkey Creek in question as being in Northern Arizona; that bit of confusion would be irrelevant if it weren't for the claim I objected to, "Arizpe, Sonora, near Turkey Creek, a tributary of the Gila River in the modern-day state of New Mexico", i.e. yet another case of geographic dislocation. All that's beside the main point, though, of attempting to establish where Geronimo was born. If you have any solid information on that, it would be very welcome. Barefoot through the chollas (talk) 20:07, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

You are right there seems to be a mistake on where Turkey Creek is. Either way Arizpe is no where near the US border. It is not within a hundred miles of this "Turkey Creek". I think that if you go through the comments of the Quora answer you will see that sourcing is not problematic. A quick google search seems to confirm the solidness of the claim particularly when combined with Geronimo's Spanish surnames. However, since English sources take preference I doubt much can be done for this article - even if the English language sources all have false information, they take precedence. That is the rule. Harlyn35 (talk) 16:31, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Harlyn35 Yes, that's my original point: impossible to be born in both Arizpe and anywhere near Turkey Creek or the Gila River. There are several mentions of his birthplace being No-doyohn Canyon, but it's not clear where that is (guesses seem to suggest Turkey Creek / Gila River). I'm not aware of his Spanish surnames. The Quora piece states that he was born to Hermenegildo Monteso and Catalina Chagori, but there's no source given, and I haven't found one on the 'net. One important point: solid sources written in English are preferable merely because this is the English-language bit of Wikipedia, but they do not take precedence over solid sources in other languages. If you can supply more trustworthy sources for Geronimo's bio in languages other than English, by all means please do. Barefoot through the chollas (talk) 19:33, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

It also seems to be common knowledge in Mexico. https://www.jornada.com.mx/2008/07/18/index.php?section=espectaculos&article=a08n1esp I think his two biographies should not be merged into one, but rather mention that recent studies have alleged that his biography was fabricated. If you merge both, you will create dozens more internal contradictions. I have looked online for the Roca Barea source which the answer mentions and have found this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-jNcWgv4QY Unless you speak Spanish it will be difficult. I would simply add a small section to this article stating that his official biography has been recently questioned. If US sources even got his birthplace and name wrong, the rest is not very credible. Harlyn35 (talk) 13:55, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Serendipity strikes! I was writing this up while you were writing the above:
 * I may have come across the source of the Moteso-Chagori claim: Rojas, Manuel. 2008. Apaches... Fantasmas de la Sierra Madre. Chihuahua: Instituto Chihuahuense de la Cultura / Hermosillo: Instituto Sonorense de Cultura. There’s also a second edition (which may mean just second printing), 2016. I haven’t gotten access to the actual text, but the presumed clincher for the birthplace mystery seems to be a 2006 official certification that the baptismal registry of the Parroquia de la Asunción de María in Arizpe contains this entry: [Heading] “José Gerónimo (indio)” [Body text] "José Jeronimo hijo de Hermenegildo Moteso y Catalina Chagori" was baptized "En la parroquia de Arispe a primero de junio a mil ochocientos veinte uno." Image here (hope this works for you): https://www.westernmovies.fr/image/2016/2024/001certificadogeroni.jpg
 * The problems are evident: 1) other than the designation (indio), there’s nothing in that text itself to suggest that this José Gerónimo/Jeronimo (spelling variation is irrelevant) is the person in question; 2) 1821 is quite a few years off the mark of the customary birth year of 1829; 3) the certification is of date and place of baptism, not date and place of birth. [And 4), sort of a subnode of 1): Hermenegildo Moteso and Catalina Chagori don’t seem to show up in any of the other Geronimo scholarship.] In order of importance, the crucial glitches are 1) and 2). Perhaps those and the other two are solved satisfactorily in the book.
 * First off, a clarification: Rojas obtained certification of someone's baptism, and may well have seen the original; it appears that there's no knowing that that person was the Geronimo in question (I don't know if he also saw/obtained certification of the person's birth). -- I've listened to Roca Barea. You're right that it's a bit difficult to make sense of, but not for the fact that it's in Spanish; it's the rambling that's disorienting. But, unfortunately, even if her presentation were tight and more coherent, declaraciones perentorias are of no direct use as sources of verifiable facts. (E.g. Did Geronimo speak Spanish? A common-sense answer would be "Yeah, probably, at least to some extent." But it's not known if that's true without his own statement or a report from a contemporary who heard him use Spanish.) And there's a larger difficulty in her approach and also in Rojas's, at least as expressed in La Jornada and elsewhere that I've seen: lack of objectivity. All that and more said, seems legit to me to add a bit in the article text about the place-of-birth controversy once Rojas's book has been examined and his argument-from-evidence is judged plausible. As things stand now, non liquet. Barefoot through the chollas (talk) 15:50, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Harlyn35, see this: Elvira Roca Barea (inaccuracies... ideological bias... systematically omits relevant data... lacks intellectual rigour and is alien to the parametres of "historical and academic research"... anglophobic, germanophobic and dutchphobic vision of history... etc.) Barefoot through the chollas (talk) 17:30, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

But apparently it is a well researched and good book. I haven't read it myself but I know people who have. I'm told its extremely dense and tediously detailed. Regardless, she is not the source of this information about Geronimo, she just reproduces and draws from Rojas in that conversation on youtube. Rojas is the source.Regarding Rojas' is work, of course we cannot know for sure 100% but it is the most likely candidate considering Geronimo himself claimed he was born in Arizona according to his biographer, not knowing that the Gila river is actually in New Mexico. There is no doubt that all Apaches were Spanish speakers. This is not questioned by any academic source. Even in the old Hollywood movie Fort Apache they are portrayed as such. But its not our call to make. I think his work should simply be mentioned here with no value judgement so that there are no confusions. The best source on the Apaches and Geronimo is without doubt this www.apacheria.es which draws from both English and Spanish language sources. It seems far more aligned to this version of history than the official biography reproduced in Wikipedia. It seems a number of US academics are aware of this also since they are all quoted in Apacheria extensively. Not sure how good your Spanish is but do browse through it you will find it very interesting. Apache leader Juan José Compá not only spoke Spanish but could apparently write it perfectly. Harlyn35 (talk) 21:17, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, Barefoot through the chollas I really don't like the design of the talk page on Wikipedia! Couldn't they have improved it over the years?Harlyn35 (talk) 08:59, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Harlyn35 Yes, the talk pages are a little clumsy. As for Rojas, once his book's examined objectively, maybe something about it can be added to the article. It's not known if the baptismal certification is Geronimo's or not, so without studying the book to see what other evidence he has, it's impossible to know if it adds or corrects anything regarding place and year of birth. BTW, the Gila runs through both of what are now New Mexico and Arizona. Barefoot through the chollas (talk) 17:54, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Yes we should leave it for now perhaps until more secondary sources appear on this matter, ideally some in English. Eventually they will. Its sad because I suspect we are looking at a Wikipedia "fail" here. Harlyn35 (talk) 11:26, 21 September 2019 (UTC) Striking through sockpuppet edits. Doug Weller talk 15:05, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I have no idea if Harlyn35 is a sockpuppet. I know that I'm not. Barefoot through the chollas (talk) 20:15, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Buffalo hunters
In the introduction, it claims that "Geronimo’s people were not buffalo hunters." However, in his autobiography, he says, "Out on prairies, which ran up to our mountain homes, wandered herds of deer, antelope, elk and buffalo, to be slaughtered when we needed them. Usually we hunted buffalo on horseback, killing them with arrows and spears. Their skins were used to make tepees and bedding; their flesh, to eat. (Geronimo, my life. Dover Publications, 2005. pg 19).

Also, I have seen many other sources that indicate that his tribe did hunt buffalo (the Apache wiki page, for example).

It seems the previous is trying to make a politically correct sort of observation/revision, but the original statement is simply not factual. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.93.132.70 (talk) 14:33, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Geronimo's real name
Geronimo's real name is Goyahkla. 24.255.2.68 (talk) 03:29, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Geronimo


text:
Freedom to Marry

Freedom to Marry was the national bipartisan organization dedicated to winning marriage for same-sex couples in the United States. Freedom to Marry was founded in New York City in 2003 by Evan Wolfson. Wolfson served as president of the organization through the June 2015 victory at the Supreme Court, until the organization's official closing in February 2016.

Freedom to Marry drove the national strategy - what Freedom to Marry called the "Roadmap to Victory" - that led to the nationwide victory. The strategy aimed at a Supreme Court win bringing the country to national resolution, once advocates had succeeded in creating the climate for the court by working on three tracks: winning marriage in a critical mass of states, growing national majority support for marriage, and ending marriage discrimination by the federal government.

History
In 1983, at a time when same-sex couples had no country- or state-level recognition anywhere in the world, Evan Wolfson wrote his Harvard Law School thesis on the constitutional right to marriage for same-sex couples. He believed that by claiming the vocabulary of marriage, same-sex couples could transform the country's understanding of who gay people were and, as a result, why exclusion and discrimination are wrong. The thesis outlined the arguments that ultimately became a national conversation and a legal and political set of battles that led to a transformation of public understanding and a triumph in the Supreme Court.

Wolfson went on to serve full-time as the marriage director of Lambda Legal throughout the 1990s. He worked as co-counsel in Hawaii's landmark Baehr case, which launched the ongoing international freedom to marry movement. The Hawaii case foreshadowed the pattern ahead: a legal breakthrough followed by political defeat, because of insufficient progress in changing hearts and minds. When, in 2000, Wolfson was approached by leaders of the Evelyn & Walter Haas Jr. Fund, he successfully proposed that the foundation make a $2.5 million challenge grant investment in 2001 – then the largest foundation award in the history of the LGBT movement from a highly respected, non-LGBT foundation – to help Wolfson build a new campaign to win marriage. The campaign was officially launched in 2003, the birth of Freedom to Marry.

Wolfson knew from studying the history of civil rights movements that marriage for same-sex couples would become the law of the land only when one of the country's two national actors, Congress or the U.S. Supreme Court, brought national resolution to the cause. But a smart, strategic campaign was integral to creating the climate necessary to get to that point and to avoid seeing gains snatched away.

As in Hawaii (and even the earliest rounds of the marriage battle in the 1970s ), litigation was central – but it wasn't enough. Wolfson called for the creation of a campaign that reflected what he called the "4 multi's": it would be multi-year (not expected to win overnight), multi-state (not watching as victories were picked off one by one), multi-partner (no one organization could do it all), and multi-methodology (it would combine litigation, lobbying, public education, organization, direct action, fund-raising, and even, eventually, electoral). Wolfson knew that marriage advocates didn't have to win every state, but they had to win enough states – and not every American had to be persuaded to support the freedom to marry, but enough Americans needed to be supportive before elected officials and judges, including the justices of the Supreme Court, would do the right thing.

Over two decades, the marriage movement built from only 27% support among the American people in 1993 to 59% in 2015; and from 0 states issuing marriage licenses in 2002 to 37 states and the District of Columbia in 2015, when the victories created the powerful momentum and energy that enabled the Supreme Court Justices to finish the job and strike down marriage discrimination once and for all.

Messaging
Beginning in 2010, Freedom to Marry created and coordinated a research collaborative, dubbed the Marriage Research Consortium, drawing together state and national partners such as the Movement Advancement Project, Basic Rights Oregon, and Third Way to "crack the code" on how to reach the next segment of the American public who were not yet part of the majority the campaign had achieved. Through cutting-edge research, focus groups, collaboration with the partners, and compilation of the experience gained in multiple campaigns (and losses), Freedom to Marry pioneered a new messaging playbook for the marriage movement called "Why Marriage Matters". The playbook shifted from a previous focus on the rights and benefits that come with marriage towards values-based frames of love, commitment, freedom, family, and the Golden Rule. These were the messages that caused "middle" voters – those who Wolfson called the "reachable but not yet reached"—to move towards support, and helped contribute to the historic first victories for marriage at the ballot in 2012, to winning a majority of Americans in support of marriage, and to the movement's ultimate victory in 2015.

Advertising and media
Through an aggressive and sophisticated media strategy, Freedom to Marry's "Press Room" drove the national narrative around marriage and combated marriage opponents' fear-based messaging. Freedom to Marry funded, directed, and created ads showcasing unexpected surrogates and stories of Americans' journeys to supporting marriage. Compelling messengers included veterans, Republicans, and family members of same-sex couples, and helped make the case in the court of public opinion that all of America is ready for the freedom to marry.

Digital Action Center
Freedom to Marry launched its Digital Action Center to leverage the national organization's successful online work and apply it across more than two dozen state digital campaigns. Freedom to Marry's award-winning digital team developed cutting edge online tools and innovative content strategies to engage marriage supporters in effective action, advance the organization's message online, raise funds, and tell the stories of people directly affected by marriage discrimination. In effect, Freedom to Marry was the digital "back end" of virtually all the key state campaigns in the last several years of the push. Freedom to Marry won numerous honors for its pioneering use of video and social work for advocacy such as the Silver 2015 Pollie Award.

State campaigns
Freedom to Marry's work in the states almost always consisted of quickly and efficiently establishing state campaign coalitions, promoting teamwork, providing and enhancing expertise and a playbook of effective tactics, and generating needed funding. Freedom to Marry played a role in nearly every legislative and ballot win, and worked closely with its partners to create the climate for victory in states with pending litigation, enlisting expertise, resources, and infrastructure to support local advocates.

"Why Marriage Matters" was Freedom to Marry's national public education campaign. The campaign was launched on February 14, 2011 The Why Marriage Matters project includes videos and stories from real people and real facts about why marriage matters, and was a critical part of long-term efforts in the states.

President Obama and Democrats "Say, 'I Do
In March 2011, Freedom to Marry launched an open letter calling on Barack Obama to support marriage for same-sex couples. Over 122,000 people signed their names to the letter, including numerous celebrities, civic leaders, and entrepreneurs. The campaign ended on May 9, 2012, when President Obama became the first sitting president of the United States to say he supports marriage for same-sex couples.

In February 2012, Freedom to Marry also launched a campaign to persuade the Democratic Party to include marriage for same-sex couples as a plank in the party platform at the 2012 Democratic National Convention. The campaign contributed to outspoken support from 22 Democratic Senators, House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi, Chair of the Democratic National Convention Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz, Caroline Kennedy and nine other co-chairs of President Obama's reelection campaign, and more than 40,000 Americans who added their names to Freedom to Marry's online petition.

On July 29, the Democratic Party Platform Drafting Committee included a freedom to marry plank in the draft of the platform. The draft was ratified at the Democratic National Convention in September, making the Democratic Party the first major U.S. political party to officially support marriage for same-sex couples in the national party platform.

Mayors for the Freedom to Marry
In January 2012, Freedom to Marry launched the Mayors for the Freedom to Marry campaign (also known as Mayors for Marriage), encouraging mayors of cities throughout the United States to endorse marriage equality for their localities. Over 500 mayors from nearly all 50 states had joined the campaign by the time marriage was won in 2015. On January 13, 2012, San Antonio Mayor Julián Castro, Baltimore Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake, and West Sacramento Mayor Christopher Cabaldon published a column, "Gay marriage a question of justice", in USA Today.

Fundraising
As the largest funder of the marriage movement, Freedom to Marry played a pivotal role in attracting broad foundation and individual donors. Donors spanned the political spectrum, from hedge fund giant Paul Singer, the founder and CEO of Elliott Management and a major Republican bundler, to acclaimed philanthropists Jon Stryker and Tim Gill, major supporters of Democratic candidates.

For example, in March 2012, Freedom to Marry launched the Win More States Fund, which identified battleground states where funding was most critically needed. The 2012 states included New Hampshire, Maine, Washington, Minnesota, New Jersey, and later Maryland. The goal was to raise at least $3 million to funnel into these state campaigns. The organization met this initial goal in early August 2012 and continued fundraising through the rest of the year, becoming the largest out-of-state funder in three of the state ballot-measure victories. All six of the states in the Win More States Fund won in 2012 - with Maine, Maryland, and Washington passing marriage for the first time at the ballot in the November 2012 election. Minnesota became the first state to block an anti-marriage amendment at the ballot (and passed a proactive marriage bill in the next legislative session). New Hampshire successfully blocked a measure to repeal marriage, and New Jersey passed marriage in the state legislature.

In February 2013, Freedom to Marry launched the second round of states for the Win More States Fund with a goal of raising and investing $2 million into campaigns to win marriage in Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Minnesota, New Jersey and Rhode Island.

In total, Freedom to Marry raised over $60 million to win marriage nationwide. This money was invested into state, national, and federal programs, and directly into campaigns on the ground.

Young Conservatives for the Freedom to Marry
Young Conservatives for the Freedom to Marry is a campaign to highlight and build support for the freedom to marry among young conservatives across America. They represent young conservatives across the country that agree all Americans should be able to share in the freedom to marry. Notable members of Young Conservatives Leadership Committee include S.E. Cupp, Abby Huntsman, and Meghan McCain. The effort is managed by conservative activist Tyler Deaton.

On June 4, 2014, the campaign launched a national effort to "reform the RNC platform". The "reform the platform" campaign launched in New Hampshire, consisting of a plan focused on the presidential primary states and "leading up to the Republican National Convention in 2016".

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Freedom to Marry


text:
Aoi Matsuri

The Aoi Matsuri (葵祭), or "Hollyhock Festival", (although commonly, but mistakenly identified as "hollyhock", the "aoi" actually belongs to the birthwort family and translates as "wild ginger"—Asarum) is one of the three main annual festivals held in Kyoto, Japan, the other two being the Festival of the Ages (Jidai Matsuri) and the Gion Festival. It is a festival of the two Kamo shrines in the north of the city, Shimogamo Shrine and Kamigamo Shrine. The festival may also be referred to as the Kamo Festival. It is held on 15 May of each year.

History
According to the ancient, presumed historical and regarded as accurate with some fantastic embellishments, record Nihon Shoki, the festival originated during the reign of Emperor Kinmei (reigned CE 539 - 571). The ancient records known as the Honchō getsurei (本朝月令) and Nenchūgyōji hissho (年中行事秘抄) reveal that a succession of disastrous rains with high winds ruined the grain crops, and epidemics had spread through the country. Because diviners placed the cause on divine punishment by the Kamo deities, the Emperor sent his messenger with a retinue to the shrine to conduct various acts to appease the deities, in prayer for a bountiful harvest. These included riding a galloping horse.

This became an annual ritual, and the galloping horse performance developed into an equestrian archery performance. According to the historical record known as the Shoku Nihongi (続日本記, so many people had come to view this equestrian performance on the festival day in the 2nd year of the reign of Emperor Monmu (r. 697–707) that the event was banned.

In the ninth century, Emperor Kanmu established the seat of the imperial throne in Kyoto. This represented the beginning of the Heian period in Japanese history. Emperor Kanmu recognized the deities of the Kamo shrines as protectors of the Heian capital, and established the Aoi Matsuri as an annual imperial event.

The festival saw its peak of grandeur in the middle of the Heian period, but this waned in the Kamakura period and the following Muromachi period, and as the nation entered the Sengoku period, the festival procession was discontinued. In the Genroku era (1688–1704) of the Edo period, it was revived, but in the 2nd year of the Meiji period (1869), when the capital was moved from Kyoto to Tokyo, observance of the festival procession stopped. In Meiji-17 (1885), it was again revived as part of a government plan to enliven Kyoto. All but the rituals at the shrine fronts were discontinued from 1944, due to the Pacific War. At last, the festival procession started to be held again from 1953. The Saiō-Dai festival princess tradition was initiated in 1956. The Saiō (斎王) was an unmarried female member of the Japanese imperial house.

The festival is named after the hollyhock (aoi) leaves used as decoration throughout the celebration as well as offerings to the gods. During the Heian Period, these leaves were once believed to protect against natural disasters such as earthquakes and thunder, and were often hung under the roofs of homes for protection. The plants used in the Aoi Matsuri may not be hollyhock, but possibly wild ginger. Although due to the rarity of these plants, other plants with similarly shaped leaves have been used in the festival instead, such as the leaves of the katsura tree.

Festival events
There are several events that take place during the month, but the most important event is on 15 May.

There are two parts to Aoi Matsuri: the procession (rotō-no-gi) and the shrine rites. The procession is led by the Imperial Messenger. Following the imperial messenger are: two oxcarts, four cows, thirty-six horses, and six hundred people. The six hundred people are all wearing traditional dress of Heian nobles (ōmiyabito), while the oxcart (gissha) is adorned with artificial wisteria flowers. The procession starts at 10:30 on May 15 and leaves the Kyoto Imperial Palace in front of the main gate Kenreimon (建礼門) and slowly works its way towards the Shimogamo Shrine and finally the Kamigamo Shrine. When they finally arrive at both shrines, the Saiō-Dai and Imperial Messenger perform their rituals. The Saiō-Dai simply pays her respects to the deities and the Imperial Messenger intones the imperial rescript praising the deities and requesting their continued favor.

There are two main figures in the Aoi Matsuri: the Saiō-Dai and the Imperial Messenger. Historically the Saiō-Dai was a woman of the imperial house who was chosen from the sisters and daughters of the emperor to dedicate herself to the Shimogamo shrine. The role of Saiō-Dai was to maintain ritual purity and to represent the emperor at the festival. Nowadays, the role of the Saiō-Dai is a stand-in by an unmarried woman in Kyoto. She has to have the three attributes of wisdom, grace, and social standing. The selection process is strict and the news is announced in the press. It is the highest honour a woman can receive in Kyoto. The Saiō-Dai is dressed in the traditional style of the Heian court. Traditional Heian court dress for women would be wearing several layers of exquisitely colored silk robes. The Saiō-Dai wears twelve layers of the traditional style robes (jūnihitoe). To maintain ritual purity, the Saiō-Dai goes through several ceremonies of purification before the procession of the festival. The Imperial Messenger leads the festival procession on horseback. During the Heian period he would be a Fifth-Rank courtier holding the office of middle or lesser captain and was usually a man destined for high office. His role was to read the imperial rescript of the shrines and present the emperor’s offerings. During the Heian period, the Saiō-Dai and the Imperial messenger would be accompanied by ten dancers and twelve musicians. Also present during the procession are guards (kebiishii), government officials, civic officials, military retainers, and a delegate from Yamashiro (Yamashiro-no-Tsukai).

Also featured at the Aoi Matsuri are horse races (kurabe-uma), and demonstrations of mounted archery (yabusame).

Many things in Kyoto are named after the Aoi.

title: Aoi Matsuri


text:
Subhūti

Subhūti (Pali: Subhūti; ) was one of the ten principal disciples of the Buddha. In Theravada Buddhism he is considered the disciple who was foremost in being "worthy of gifts" (Pali: dakkhiṇeyyānaṃ) and "living remote and in peace" (Pali: araṇavihārīnaṃ aggo). In Mahayana Buddhism, he is considered foremost in understanding emptiness (Sanskrit: Śūnyatā).

Subhūti was born into a wealthy family and was a relative of Anāthapiṇḍika, the Buddha's chief patron. He became a monk after hearing the Buddha teach at the dedication ceremony of Jetavana Monastery. After ordaining, Subhūti went into the forest and became an arahant while meditating on loving-kindness (Pali: mettā). It is said that due to his mastery of loving-kindness meditation, any gift offered to him bore the greatest merit for the donor, thus earning him the title of foremost in being "worthy of gifts". Subhūti is a major figure in Mahayana Buddhism and is one of the central figures in Prajñāpāramitā sutras.

Previous life
According to the Pali Canon, in the time of Padumuttara Buddha, Subhūti was born a man named Nanda. Nanda was born into a wealthy family and decided to leave his life behind to become a hermit. The hermitage Nanda was staying at was then visited by Padumuttara Buddha, who had his monk who was skilled in the practice of metta and was foremost in being "worthy of gifts" give a thanks-giving (Pali: anumodanā). While all of the other hermits at the hermitage attained arahantship following the teaching, Nanda did not and instead made a resolution to become the disciple foremost in being worthy of gifts of a future Buddha. This wish was fulfilled in the time of Gautama Buddha when he was reborn as Subhūti.

Biography
According to the Pali tradition, Subhūti was born into a wealthy merchant family. His father was the wealthy merchant Sumana, and his older brother was Anāthapiṇḍika, who would later become the Buddha's chief male patron. Texts relate that Subhūti was present at the dedication of Jetavana Monastery, which his older brother Anāthapiṇḍika had purchased and built for the Buddha. Upon hearing the Buddha teach at the dedication, Subhūti became inspired and ordained as a monk under him. After mastering the monastic rules, he went to live in the forest where he attained arahantship while meditating on the "absorption of loving-kindness" (Pali: mettā-jhāna). Subhūti became known for teaching the Dhamma "without distinction or limitation", meaning regardless of the listener's potential, and was declared the disciple foremost in "living remote and in peace" (Pali: araṇavihārīnaṃ aggo). During alms rounds, where monks go house to house looking for food from laypeople, Subhūti had a habit of developing mettā-jhāna at every household, making it so people who gave him alms received the highest possible merit from the offerings. Because of this, the Buddha also declared him the disciple who was foremost in being worthy of gifts (Pali: dakkhiṇeyyānaṃ).

In one story, Subhūti visited Rājagaha where King Bimbisara promised to build him a hut. However, the king forgot, thus forcing Subhūti to meditate in the open air. It is said that due to the power of his virtue rain would not fall, and when King Bimbisara found out about the cause of the lack of rain he had a leaf hut constructed for him. According to the text, when Subhūti sat down in the hut, rain began to fall.

In Mahāyāna Buddhism
Subhūti plays a much larger role in Mahayana Buddhism than in Theravada Buddhism. In Mahayana Buddhist tradition, he is considered the disciple of the Buddha who was foremost in understanding Śūnyatā, or emptiness, and is a central figure in Mahayana Prajñāpāramitā texts. Buddhist scholar Edward Conze describes him as being regarded as the foremost disciple in Mahayana Buddhism.

Early life
According to northern Buddhist texts, Subhuti was born into a wealthy family in Śrāvastī and on the day of his birth, all of his family's gold and silver suddenly disappeared, symbolizing that he was born of emptiness, according to Buddhist commentators. The family's gold and silver was then said to have reappeared seven days later. In the northern Buddhist tradition, Subhuti was the nephew of Anāthapiṇḍika and had a notoriously bad temper. Subhūti was present at the dedication of Jetavana Monastery, which his uncle Anāthapiṇḍika had purchased and built for the Buddha. Upon hearing the Buddha teach at the dedication, Subhūti became inspired and ordained as a monk under him eventually developing a calm mind and temperament.

Person
Chinese Buddhist commentaries state that when going on alms rounds, Subhuti prioritized collecting alms from the wealthy. This was in contrast to another Buddhist disciple, Mahākāśyapa, who prioritized collecting alms from the poor. According to Chinese Buddhist monk Hsing Yun, Mahākāśyapa prioritized receiving alms from poor households reasoning that poor people needed the merit from alms-giving the most, while Subhuti reasoned that collecting alms from poor people increased their hardship, therefore he collected alms from rich households who would not be burdened by such giving. Chinese Buddhist texts state that the Buddha later rebuked both of them for these practices, telling them that collecting alms should be done indiscriminately.

Among the Mahāyāna traditions, Subhūti is perhaps best known as the disciple with whom the Buddha speaks when imparting the Diamond Sūtra (Sanskrit: Vajracchedikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra, Chinese: 金剛經 or 金剛般若經), an important teaching within the Prajñāpāramitā genre. This, along with the Heart Sūtra (Sanskrit: Prajñāpāramitā Hṛdaya, Chinese: 心經 or 般若心經), is one of the most well-known sūtras among both practitioners and non-practitioners of Buddhism. Subhūti is also responsible for much of the exposition in earlier Prajñāpāramitā sūtras. In northern Buddhist texts, when the Buddha descended to Sankassa after spending the rainy season in Tavatimsa heaven, Subhuti, recalling that the Buddha said that one can see him by meditating, remained in meditation rather than going to greet him. Upon arriving the Buddha stated that Subhuti was the first to greet him upon his return, having seen the Buddha's spiritual body before the other disciples greeted his physical body.

In the Lotus Sutra (Sanskrit: Saddharma Puṇḍarīka Sūtra, Chinese: 法華(花)經 or 妙法蓮華(花)經), Chapter 6 (Bestowal of Prophecy), the Buddha bestows prophecies of enlightenment on Subhūti, along with other śrāvakas such as Mahākāśyapa, Mahākātyāyana, and Mahāmaudgalyāyana.

In Zen writings
In Zen Buddhism, Subhūti appears in several koans, such as this one:

"One day, in a mood of sublime emptiness, Subhuti was resting underneath a tree when flowers began to fall about him. 'We are praising you for your discourse on emptiness,' the gods whispered to Subhuti. 'But I have not spoken of emptiness,' replied Subhuti. 'You have not spoken of emptiness, we have not heard emptiness,' responded the gods. 'This is the true emptiness.' The blossoms showered upon Subhuti as rain."

This story also appears in the Diamond Sutra.

Lineage of the Panchen Lamas
In the lineage of the Panchen Lamas of Tibet there were considered to be four "Indian" and three Tibetan incarnations of Amitabha Buddha before Khedrup Gelek Pelzang, who is recognised as the first Panchen Lama. The lineage starts with Subhuti.

In Chinese literature
A Taoist character based on Subhūti, Puti Zhushi, appears in the Chinese classical novel Journey to the West, as the teacher of the Monkey King Sun Wukong. The story of Sun Wukong first meeting Subhūti was a play on the Zen story of Huineng meeting Hongren, as told in the Platform Sūtra of Zen Buddhism. Because of the role that Subhūti plays in the story, his name has remained familiar in Chinese culture.

title: Subhūti


text:
Punish (band)

Punish is a technical-death-metal band from Switzerland, formed in 1996. The band has shared the stage with international bands including: Artillery, Atheist, Belphegor, Cannibal Corpse, Destruction, Exhumed, Hour of Penance and Illdisposed.

History
The band was formed in 1996 by André Mathieu, guitarist Ralph Huber and bass player Reto Hardmeier. In 1998 drummer Reto Crola and singer Chris Block completed the lineup. Together, they composed their first song, the result of which was their self-titled debut album released in 2000.

In 2001 Mirko Siegwart became their new bass player. The MCD Three Songs of Mental Disorder was released in 2004, followed by the EP Four Songs In Morbid Lust, a year later. Both records were recorded at Mastersound Studio (Germany). In 2005, Hardmeier rejoined the band.

When Block left in 2006, Reto and Mathieu took over vocals. That year the band toured Europe together with Helheim. The band's second album, Dawn of the Martyr, appeared in 2007. In 2008 they played together with Nocturnus on another European tour. Their third album Raptus was released in 2009. In 2012 Mathieu took over all vocal parts, abandoning the Two-Voice-Concept. In 2013 Punish released their fourth Album Sublunar Chaos, via Apostasy Records and Monika Hagmann became the band's new bass player.

In 2016 Punish announced on their website that guitar player Ralph Huber left the band and has been replaced by Oli Keller.

Style
Punish plays ambitious technical death metal, where the guitar parts are partly reminiscent on those of Death.

Albums

 * Punish (2000, DIY)
 * Dawn of the Martyr (2007, Quam Libet Records)
 * Raptus (2009, Stonepath Records)
 * Sublunar Chaos (2013, Apostasy Records)

EPs

 * Four Songs In Morbid Lust (2005, DIY)

Demos

 * Three Songs of Mental Disorder (2004, DIY)

title: Punish (band)


text:
Dracaena

Dracaena (romanized form of the Greek δράκαινα - drakaina, "female dragon") can mean:

 * Drakaina (mythology), a Greek mythological entity
 * Dracaena (plant), a genus of plants
 * Cordyline australis, a plant commonly known as the Dracaena palm
 * Dracaena (lizard), a genus of lizard
 * Dracena, a town in Brazil
 * Dracaena, a fictional dragon-woman in Percy Jackson & the Olympians
 * Drakaina (model) (born 1975), a French actress and model.

title: Dracaena


text:
Sullivan Award

Sullivan Award may refer to:
 * Algernon Sydney Sullivan Award or Mary Mildred Sullivan Award; awarded at 29-grantee institutions of the Algernon Sydney Sullivan Foundation
 * Annie Sullivan Award, given to Special Education Teachers, named after Helen Keller's teacher
 * Carl R. Sullivan Award of the International Fisheries Section of the American Fisheries Society
 * James E. Sullivan Award, awarded to outstanding amateur athletes in the United States
 * Paula E. Sullivan Award, advertising industry award given annually by the Ad Club of San Diego
 * Sullivan Award for Heroism by the San Francisco Fire Department
 * Walter Sullivan Award for Excellence in Science Journalism
 * William Matheus Sullivan Award, annual development award to gifted opera singers by the William Matheus Sullivan Musical Foundation

title: Sullivan Award


text:
Prime ideal theorem

In mathematics, the prime ideal theorem may be

 * the Boolean prime ideal theorem
 * the Landau prime ideal theorem on number fields

title: Prime ideal theorem