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Bob Ryan

Robert P. Ryan (born February 21, 1946) is an American sportswriter, formerly with The Boston Globe, and author. He has been described as "the quintessential American sportswriter" and a basketball guru, and is well known for his coverage of the sport including his famous stories covering the Boston Celtics in the 1970s. After graduating from Boston College, Ryan started as a sports intern for the Globe on the same day as Peter Gammons, and later worked with other notable Globe sportswriters Will McDonough and Leigh Montville. In early 2012, Ryan announced his retirement from sports writing after 44 years, effective at the conclusion of the 2012 Summer Olympics. His final column in the Globe was published August 12, 2012.

Biography and career
Born in Trenton, New Jersey, Ryan grew up in a house "that revolved around going to games," and went to high school at the Lawrenceville School from 1960 to 1964. He graduated from Boston College as a history major in 1968.

Celtics beat writer
In the fall of 1969, a vacancy on the Celtics beat of The Boston Globe was created, and Ryan got the job. Ryan was hired by the paper's morning sports editor Francis Rosa. While covering the Celtics, Ryan developed a close relationship with the Celtics organization. Ryan would even go out to dinner with the team. Ryan sat at the press table eight seats from the Celtics' bench, where colleagues referred to him as the "Commissioner", not unlike Peter Gammons's nickname. Boston Sports Media critic Bruce Allen has said, "His passion is not faked."

One night Hue Hollins, the referee, went to the press table to explain a call to Ryan during a time-out even though he was not obligated to. Another time Ryan wrote a column about the Washington Bullets' Rick Mahorn and how he played dirty under the hoop. When Mahorn was called for a foul Gene Shue, the Bullets' coach, turned around and said, "That's your fault, Bob Ryan, your fault!" Dennis Johnson was often annoyed with Ryan and would go up to the press table and say, "Hey, Bob, keep it down. We got a game going on here" when Ryan sideline coached. From Ryan's first column on Larry Bird headlined "Celtics draft Bird for oh what a future" to his last "Larry! Larry! Larry!" Ryan was always a fan of his and eventually co-authored a book with him.

In Tom Heinsohn's book Give 'em the Hook, Heinsohn is negative towards Ryan. Ryan, who began writing for the Globe in Heinsohn's rookie season as a coach, would make friends with the players and vent their feelings towards Heinsohn, their fans, and their teammates, claims Heinsohn. Heinsohn didn't like how he didn't feel in control of his team. Heinsohn believes that Ryan started to "think of himself as another member of the family" and that he even started coaching the team through his beat stories. Heinsohn goes on to talk about Ryan's bloated ego and the fact that he was then thinking of himself as a basketball guru. Heinsohn also says while noting disapproval of Ryan that at the time anyone who lived in Boston and even remotely followed basketball read Ryan's columns. In recent years Ryan has been less critical of Celtics coaches, including Doc Rivers, of whom he said, "I'm a Doc guy."

General sports columnist
In 1982, Ryan would hand the torch of the Globe Celtics beat to the not-yet well-known Dan Shaughnessy, and later Jackie MacMullan. He did this in order to go to Boston television station WCVB for a couple of years. Ryan ended up hating it and moved back to the Celtics beat in 1984 for two more seasons, before getting promoted to general sports columnist in 1989.

Ryan would cover 20 NBA finals, 20 Final Fours, nine World Series, five Super Bowls, the last seven Olympics and many other events. Later, Ryan became less basketball-oriented and more general sports-oriented. He continues to write for Basketball Times. Ryan is a voter for the Baseball Hall of Fame.

Awards

 * National Sportscasters and Sportswriters Association National Sportswriter of the Year four times (2000, 2007, 2008, 2009).
 * College Basketball Writers and New England Basketball Halls of Fame.
 * 1996 Curt Gowdy Award from the Basketball Hall of Fame
 * 2000 Associated Press "National Sportswriter of the Year"
 * 2006 Dick Schaap Award for Outstanding Journalism
 * 2015 PEN/ESPN Lifetime Achievement Award for Literary Sports Writing

Retirement
At 60, Ryan wanted his retirement from the job to be graceful: "I'm not bitter. I enjoy my job and I still think I do it well, but they are chipping away, chipping away and they are making it far less pleasurable. I want to get out when I feel like getting out. If you stay around too long, there is no way you can dictate your terms," he said. Ryan also asked, "How do you explain to Stephen A. Smith that he has no idea of the game and how much fun it was? He thinks he knows everything, but he will never know what I know about the Celtics."

On February 14, 2012, during a podcast with Bill Simmons on Grantland.com, Ryan announced that he would retire after the 2012 Summer Olympics in London. Said Ryan, "I really and truly believe that my time has come and gone; that the dynamics of the business, of what it takes, what it means to be involved in the sports business with all the Tweeting and the blogging and all the stuff, and an audience with a different taste - it's not me anymore. I'm not comfortable." Ryan indicated that he would stay involved with sports in a part-time capacity after retirement, but is not interested in continuing at the pace he does now. Ryan's last day as a Red Sox reporter was July 16, 2012.

Ryan's final column in The Boston Globe was published August 12, 2012. He continues writing on a part-time basis as a columnist emeritus. He also remains a regular on ESPN's Around The Horn and occasionally guest hosts Pardon the Interruption with Michael Wilbon or Tony Kornheiser.

In March 2017, Ryan launched his own podcast, Bob Ryan's Boston Podcast. He has hosted many well-known former Boston athletes such as Larry Bird, Steve Grogan, Danny Ainge, Troy Brown, and Dave Cowens. Other well-known sports figures such as former NBA commissioner David Stern have also been guests.

After retiring, Ryan became the Sports Reporter in Residence at High Point University.

Television and radio work

 * Radio
 * The Bob Ryan Report on Loren and Wally (WROR-FM): Every Thursday morning at 7:50 a.m. he goes on to give his opinion about Boston sports.
 * Ryan contributes to Michael Felger's show. He used to contribute to Dennis and Callahan on WEEI-FM.
 * "Roundtable" (featuring Ryan) on NPR's On Point to talk about the decline in basketball viewership.
 * Ryan is a weekly contributor to the Marty and Miller radio program on KXNO in Des Moines, Iowa, and is a frequent guest on Downtown with Rich Kimball on Stephen King's WZON in Bangor, Maine.
 * The Tony Kornheiser Show; Ryan has appeared on the first episode of most of Kornheiser's show incarnations. Kornheiser calls Ryan "the quintessential American sportswriter".

 * Television
 * On June 26, 2007, Ryan's show, Globe 10.0, made its premiere on the New England Sports Network (NESN). The half hour show, which airs every Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, features Ryan interviewing different The Boston Globe sports writers on ten issues related to New England sports.  It was canceled by NESN in December 2008, but continued on The Boston Globe website.
 * Ryan is also a frequent guest host on ESPN's Pardon the Interruption and guest on The Sports Reporters.
 * He is a regular contributor on the show Around the Horn.

In addition, Bill Simmons has called him "the best basketball writer ever." Paul Silas joked on Cold Pizza while Ryan was a guest, that all Bob Ryan's success was due to him.

Joumana Kidd comments
In May 2003, Ryan appeared on Sports Final, a local sports talk show airing on WBZ-TV. At that time, Ryan said that Joumana Kidd, then-wife of then-New Jersey Nets guard Jason Kidd needed someone to "smack" her for taking her son T.J., then four years old, to NBA playoff night games where they could be taunted. He accused Joumana of being an exhibitionist and using the child as a prop to get television time. The show's host, Bob Lobel, asked Ryan to retract his statement immediately:

 * Lobel: "You just don't want to smack her. You don't mean to say that."
 * Ryan: "Alright."
 * Lobel: "I mean. Do you? Really, do you? Tell me you don't."
 * Ryan: "Why should I say anything different here than I said all last playoffs last year?"

The comments struck a chord because in 2001, Joumana Kidd had been the victim of domestic violence by then-husband Jason. Ryan returned to Boston to meet with executives at the Globe. Ryan publicly apologized, but the Globe still suspended him and barred him from television for one month. "Four weeks took my breath away. But I'll abide by it," he later said. Then Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney chastised Ryan for his comments.

Theo Epstein confrontation
Ryan had a run-in with Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein. In November 2006, he had a small unfriendly exchange with Epstein saying "on behalf of an eager constituency, I hope the rumor (of a J. D. Drew deal) isn't true."

Personal life
Ryan and his wife Elaine, who have been married since 1969, have a daughter Jessica and a son Keith, who died in 2008. They are grandparents of triplets. The dedication page in Forty Eight Minutes, one of Ryan's books, reads: "To Elaine Ryan: In the next life, maybe you'll get a nine-to-five man who makes seven figures." Ryan has also done humanitarian fundraisers for years to help inner-city teenagers with their educations. Ryan lives in Hingham, Massachusetts.

Son's death
On January 28, 2008, Ryan's 37-year-old son Keith was found dead in his home in Islamabad, Pakistan. Initial reports indicated that his death was an apparent suicide; however, reports in the Pakistani newspapers Dawn and The News International indicated that Ryan's death could be investigated as a murder. A State Department spokesperson would only say that the death was under investigation. Bob Ryan released the following statement: "Everyone is devastated. I am well aware of these reports and we are very concerned about that. (But) we have no reason at this time to doubt the official version".

Keith had been working in Pakistan since December 2006 as an attache for the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency. Keith was a graduate of Hingham High School (1988), Trinity College, the London School of Economics and Boston College Law School. He had previously worked for the U.S. Border Patrol, LAPD and the Immigration and Naturalization Service, where he was assigned to the violent gang task force. Keith was married to Kate and had three children, Conor, John, and Amelia, who live in Silver Spring, Maryland.

Books

 * Wait Till I Make the Show: Baseball in the Minor Leagues (1974)
 * Celtics Pride: The rebuilding of Boston's world championship basketball team (1975)
 * The Pro Game: The World of Professional Basketball (1975)
 * Hondo: Celtic Man in Motion (1977) coauthored with John Havlicek
 * Forty Eight Minutes (1987) with Terry Pluto
 * Cousy on the Celtic Mystique (1988) coauthored with Bob Cousy
 * Drive: The Story of My Life (1989) coauthored with Larry Bird
 * Boston Celtics: The History, Legends, and Images of America's Most Celebrated Team (1990)
 * The Four Seasons (1997)
 * The Road to the Super Bowl (1997)
 * A Day of Light and Shadows (2000) Introduction only
 * When Boston Won the World Series: A Chronicle of Boston's Remarkable Victory in the First Modern World Series of 1903 (2004)
 * The Best of Sport: Classic Writing from the Golden Era of Sports (2005)
 * Scribe: My Life in Sports (2014) a memoir of Ryan's life

title: Bob Ryan


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Ford CDW27 platform

The Ford CDW27 platform is a former automobile platform produced by Ford in worldwide markets from 1993 to 2007. Used for midsize cars, the CDW27 architecture was a "world car" (co-designed by Ford and Mazda), becoming the second Ford world car (after the 1980 Ford Escort).

The CDW architecture was developed over six years, costing $6 billion at the time of its 1993 launch; the shared development saved approximately 25% over developing separate vehicles for Ford and Ford of Europe. The Global and the American versions were to have about 75 percent parts commonality.

Derived from the Mazda GE platform (used by the Mazda Cronos/626 and the Mazda MX-6/Ford Probe), the platform replaced the DE-1 platform (Ford Sierra) and the CE14 platform (Ford Tempo/Mercury Topaz) under a single product range. First used for the 1993 Ford Mondeo, North America began usage of the CDW27 for 1995 with the Ford Contour.

During the 2000s, the architecture was phased out in favor of two midsize platforms developed separately; the CD3 architecture (developed with Mazda) was used in North America and the EUCD architecture (shared with Volvo) was used by Ford of Europe.

CDW27 (first generation)

 * Ford Mondeo Mk I (1993–1996)
 * Ford Contour (1995–2000)
 * Ford Cougar (1999–2002)
 * Mercury Mystique (1995–2000)
 * Mercury Cougar (1999–2002)

CD162 (second generation)

 * Ford Mondeo Mk II (1996–2000)

CD132 (third generation)

 * Ford Mondeo Mk III (2000–2007)
 * Jaguar X-Type (2001–2009)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Ford CDW27 platform


text: Category:Golf tournaments

title: Category:Golf tournaments


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Democratic Solidarity Party

The Democratic Solidarity Party (Partido Solidaridad Democrática) was a political liberal party in Cuba. Although changes to the Cuban constitution in 1992 decriminalized the right to form political parties other than the Communist Party of Cuba, these parties are not permitted to campaign or engage in any public political activities on the island. The Democratic Solidarity party described itself as "an organization from within Cuba promoting democracy and the respect for human rights by the peaceful route." The last President of the party was Fernando Sánchez López. The party was a full member of Liberal International.

It merged with the National Liberal Party of Cuba in February 2014 to form the Cuban Liberal Solidarity Party (Partido Solidaridad Liberal Cubano, PSLC).

Membership
In February 2007 the following persons were elected to the national executive committee of PSD:
 * 1) Fernando Sánchez López, President.
 * 2) Antonio Torres Justo, Vice president pro tempore and executive secretary
 * 3) Carlos Aitcheson Guzmán, international relations pro tempore
 * 4) Marcos Fiallo Samper, Finances
 * 5) Ignacio Padrón Navarro, Organizer
 * 6) Osmar Laffita, public relacions and spokesperson
 * 7) Orestes Cartaya Lirio, youth issues
 * 8) Juan de Dios Duke, human rights and attention to political prisoners
 * 9) Raúl Chávez Valdivia, Representative of the oriental provinces Granma, Santiago de Cuba, Guantánamo.
 * 10) Wilber Hernández Acosta, epresentantive of the oriental provinces Ciego de Avila, Camagüey, Las Tunas, Holguín
 * 11) Rolando Delgado, epresentantive of the occidental provinces
 * 12) Jorge Verrier Rodríguez, epresentantive of the central provinces
 * 13) Rafael Arias Carmona, workers and farmers issues
 * 14) Adolfo Fernández Sainz, international relations, imprisoned in the Black Spring of 2003
 * 15) Margarita Cienfuegos, women's secretary

Provincial delegates

 * 1) Rolando Delgado Ramos, Pinar del Río
 * 2) Ignacio Padrón Navarro, Havana province
 * 3) Hermes Diago Gómez, Matanzas
 * 4) Ricardo Filgueira Fajardo, Cienfuegos
 * 5) Juan de Dios Ortueta, Villa Clara
 * 6) Rubén Mulén Torno, S.Spíritus
 * 7) Israel Savigñon Revé, Camagüey
 * 8) Amauri Peña Rodríguez, Las Tunas
 * 9) Raúl Chávez Valdivia. Granma
 * 10) Eidy Graña Toledo, Holguín
 * 11) Dr. Arnoldo de la Cruz Bañobre, Santiago de Cuba.
 * 12) Argos Alejandro Matos Ricardo, Havana city

title: Democratic Solidarity Party


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Abingdon (1922 automobile)

The Abingdon was an English assembled car built in small numbers in 1922 and 1923 in a factory in Tyseley, Birmingham. It used an 11-9hp 1490 cc 4-cylinder Dorman engine and a 3-speed gearbox. Only 12 were made. Production was hampered by financial difficulties for the Wrigley company, who supplied key components such as the steering gear and three-speed gearbox.

The company also produced Abingdon Motorcycles until 1925. In 1905 and 1906, it had produced the 5 hp (4 kW) AKD tricar.

title: Abingdon (1922 automobile)


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Liberal Party of Cuba

The Liberal Party of Cuba (Partido Liberal de Cuba), was one of the major political parties in Cuba from 1910 until the Cuban Revolution in the late 1950s, when it was exiled.

Liberal governments
Founded as the Autonomist Liberal Party (Partido Liberal Autonomista, PLA), in 1878 and renamed in 1898, the party first contested elections in 1910, when it won 23 of the 41 seats in mid-term elections. They lost the 1912 elections to the Conjunción Patriótica alliance, and went on to finish second in elections in 1914, 1916 (in which they won the same number of seats in the House of Representatives as the National Conservative Party, but won fewer seats in the Senate) and 1918.

In the 1920 elections, the Liberal Party's Alfredo Zayas y Alfonso won the presidential election, although the party lost the parliamentary elections to the National League. They went on to win the mid-term elections in 1922. For the 1924 elections the party formed an alliance with the Cuban Popular Party. The alliance's Gerardo Machado won the presidential election, whilst it also won both the Senate and House elections.

In 1928 elections for a Constitutional Assembly were held, in which the party won 29 of the 55 seats. The party also won the mid-term elections in 1930 and 1932. For the 1936 general election the party was part of the Tripartite Coalition, alongside the Nationalist Union and Republican Action, which won both the presidential election (with Miguel Mariano Gómez as its candidate) and the parliamentary elections. The Liberal Party went on to win the 1938 mid-term elections.

Liberal Party's fall
In the 1940 general elections the party was again part of an alliance, the People's Socialist Coalition, alongside the Communist Revolutionary Union, Progressive Action, the Democratic National Association and the Republican Democratic Party. The alliance's Fulgencio Batista won the presidential election, whilst the Liberal Party finished second in the House of Representatives elections. The party won 21 seats in the 1942 mid-term elections, matched by the Democratic Party.

The 1944 general election saw the party finish second in the House of Representative elections, with a similar performance in the 1946 mid-term elections. For the 1948 general election the party put forward a joint candidate with the Democratic Party, but lost to the Auténtico-Republican's Carlos Prío Socarrás. The party also finished second in the parliamentary elections.

An alliance with the Democratic Party and the Partido Auténtico won the 1950 mid-term elections. However, for the 1954 elections the party allied against the Partido Auténtico alongside Progressive Action, the Radical Union and the Republican Democratic Party, putting forward the victorious Batista as their presidential candidate. The Liberal Party finished second in the House elections behind Progressive Action.

Successor
The modern party, named National Liberal Party of Cuba, was founded in 2004. It is a member of Liberal International.

title: Liberal Party of Cuba


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Ford B platform

The Ford B platform is an automobile platform used for Ford subcompact cars from the late 1970s through the early 2000s. It was used in the Ford Fiesta, Ford Ka, Ford Puma, and Ford Courier. It was superseded by the Ford B3 platform in 2004.

title: Ford B platform


text: User talk:66.162.176.102

title: User talk:66.162.176.102


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Mark Waid

Mark Waid (born March 21, 1962) is an American comic book writer best known for his work on DC Comics titles The Flash, Kingdom Come and Superman: Birthright as well as his work on Captain America, Fantastic Four and Daredevil for Marvel. Other comics publishers he has done work for include Fantagraphics, Event, Top Cow, Dynamite, and Archie Comics.

From August 2007 to December 2010, Waid served as Editor-in-Chief and later Chief Creative Officer of Boom! Studios, where he also published his creator-owned series Irredeemable and Incorruptible.

In October 2018, Waid joined Humanoids Publishing as Director of Creative Development before being promoted to Publisher in February 2020.

Early life
Waid was born in Hueytown, Alabama. He has stated that his comics work was heavily influenced by Adventure Comics #369–370 (1968), the two-part "Legion of Super-Heroes" story by Jim Shooter and Mort Weisinger that introduced the villain Mordru. Waid has stated that the story is "a blueprint for everything I write."

1980s–1990s
Waid entered the comics field during the mid-1980s as an editor and writer on Fantagraphics Books' comic book fan magazine, Amazing Heroes. Waid's first comic book story "The Puzzle of the Purloined Fortress", an eight-page Superman story, was published in Action Comics #572 (Oct. 1985).

In 1987, Waid was hired as an editor for DC Comics where he worked on such titles as Action Comics, Doom Patrol, Infinity, Inc., Legion of Super-Heroes, Secret Origins, and Wonder Woman, as well as various one-shots including Batman: Gotham by Gaslight. With Gotham by Gaslight, and in tandem with writer Brian Augustyn, Waid co-created DC's Elseworlds imprint.

In 1989 Waid left editorial work for freelance writing assignments. He worked for DC's short-lived Impact Comics line where he wrote The Comet and scripted dialogue for Legend of the Shield.

In 1992 Waid began the assignment which would bring him to wider recognition in the comics industry, when he was hired to write The Flash by editor Brian Augustyn. Waid stayed on the title for an eight-year run. He wrote a Metamorpho limited series in 1993 and created the character known as Impulse in The Flash (vol. 2) #92 (July 1994). Impulse was launched into his own series in April 1995 by Waid and artist Humberto Ramos. In November of that same year, Waid and Howard Porter collaborated on the Underworld Unleashed limited series, which served as the center of a company-wide crossover storyline.

His first major project for Marvel Comics was as one of the writers of the "Age of Apocalypse" crossover. He later co-created the Onslaught character for the X-Men line.

Marvel editors Ralph Macchio and Mark Gruenwald hired him as Gruenwald's successor as writer of Captain America, during which Waid was paired with artist Ron Garney. Waid and Garney garnered critical praise for their run on the title, remaining on it until the title was relaunched with a different creative team as part of the 1996–1997 "Heroes Reborn" storyline. Rob Liefeld offered Waid the opportunity to script Captain America over plots and artwork by his studio, but Waid declined. That storyline ran a full year, after which Waid and Garney returned to the title for another relaunched series, Captain America volume 3, issues #1–23. Waid also wrote the short-lived spin-off series Captain America: Sentinel of Liberty from 1998 to 1999, having written 10 of the 12 issues (skipping issues #7 and 10).

In 1996, Waid and artist Alex Ross produced the graphic novel Kingdom Come. This story, set in the future of the DC Universe, depicted the fate of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and other heroes as the world around them changed. It was written in reaction to the "grim and gritty" comics of the 1980s and 1990s. DC Comics writer and executive Paul Levitz observed that "Waid's deep knowledge of the heroes' pasts served them well, and Ross' unique painted art style made a powerful statement about the reality of the world they built." Many of the ideas introduced in Kingdom Come were later integrated into the present-day DC Universe, and Waid himself wrote a follow-up to the series, The Kingdom. Waid and writer Grant Morrison collaborated on a number of projects that would successfully reestablish DC's Justice League to prominence. Waid's contributions included JLA: Year One, as well as work on the ongoing series. The two writers developed the concept of Hypertime to explain problems with continuity in the DC Universe, which was first introduced in The Kingdom.

2000s
Waid collaborated with artists Bryan Hitch and Paul Neary on JLA and the JLA: Heaven's Ladder (Oct. 2000) one-shot.

In 2000, Waid co-wrote a series named Empire with Barry Kitson, whose protagonist was a Doctor Doom-like supervillain named Golgoth who had defeated all superheroes and conquered the world. The series was originally published by Gorilla Comics, a company formed by Waid, Kurt Busiek and several others, but the company folded after only two issues were published. Empire was completed under the DC Comics label in 2003 and 2004. Waid wrote the first year of Crossgen's Ruse series.

Waid began an acclaimed run as writer of Marvel's Fantastic Four in 2002 with his former Flash artist Mike Wieringo, with Marvel releasing their debut issue, Fantastic Four vol. 3 #60 (Oct. 2002) at the promotional price of 9 cents U.S. By June 2003, Marvel publisher Bill Jemas tried to convince Waid to abandon his "high-adventure" approach to the series, and making the book into, in Waid's words, "a wacky suburban dramedy where Reed's a nutty professor who creates amazing but impractical inventions, Sue's the office-temp breadwinner, the cranky neighbor is their new 'arch-enemy,' etc." Waid, who felt that this was too much of a departure from what he had been hired to write, initially declined. After some discussion with editor Tom Brevoort, Waid found a way to make the requested changes, but by then, the decision had been made to fire Waid and Wieringo from the series. The resulting fan backlash led to Waid and Wieringo's reinstatement on the title by that September. Waid and Wieringo completed their run on Fantastic Four with issue #524 (May 2005), by which time the previously relaunched series had returned to its original numbering.

In 2003 Waid wrote the origin of the "modern" Superman with Superman: Birthright, a twelve-part limited series which was meant to be the new official origin story of the Man of Steel. Birthright contained several characters and elements from the Silver and Modern Age Superman comic books and homages to Superman: The Movie and the Smallville television series.

Waid returned to writing Legion of Super-Heroes in December 2004, teaming again with Barry Kitson. He finished his run on the series with issue #30 (July 2007). In 2005, Waid signed a two-year exclusive contract with DC Comics. He co-wrote the 52 limited series with Grant Morrison, Geoff Johns, Greg Rucka, and Keith Giffen that lasted for one year and covered the events that take place during the year in the DC Universe following Infinite Crisis. Another project for DC was a new launch of The Brave and the Bold with artist George Pérez, and a brief return to The Flash.

On July 27, 2007, at the San Diego Comic-Con International, Boom! Studios announced that Waid would join Boom! as Editor-in-Chief the following month. As his non-creator assignments at DC lapsed, he stated that all his future creator-owned work will be with Boom!.

Waid was promoted to Chief Creative Officer of BOOM! Studios in August 2010. That December, Waid announced he would be leaving that role, and return to freelance work, though he would continue writing for the publisher.

In the late 2000s Waid worked on the Spider-Man creative team, writing several issues of The Amazing Spider-Man, including a meeting between Spider-Man and Stephen Colbert in The Amazing Spider-Man #573 (Dec. 2008).

2010s
Waid scripted the opening of "The Gauntlet" storyline in issue #612 (Jan. 2010). Waid wrote the Doctor Strange mini-series Strange,  and several series for Boom! Studios, notably Irredeemable with artist Peter Krause and its spinoff Incorruptible. In July 2011 Marvel relaunched a monthly Daredevil series with Waid on writing duties. Waid and artist Paolo Rivera garnered positive reviews for their work on the title, and earned multiple 2012 Eisner Awards, including Best Continuing Series and Best Single Issue for issue #7. In addition, Waid won Best Writer for his work on Daredevil, as well as his work on Irredeemable, and Incorruptible. Waid received a "Best Writer" Harvey Award as well for his Daredevil work. In November 2012, Waid and artist Leinil Francis Yu launched The Indestructible Hulk series for Marvel.

In 2011, Waid established a free digital comics website Thrillbent, launching the site with the title Insufferable. An essay posted on October 2, 2013, by Waid, titled "An Open Letter To Young Freelancers", generated attention within the comics industry with The Hollywood Reporter describing it as "an important commentary on business practices that are in a state of flux at publishers both large and small." In 2014, Waid launched new series for Daredevil and The Hulk with artists Chris Samnee and Mark Bagley respectively. In December 2014, Waid's S.H.I.E.L.D. title began and it introduced several characters from the television series Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. into the Marvel comics universe. He later wrote All-New, All-Different Avengers, Black Widow, and The Avengers.

Waid and artist J. G. Jones produced Strange Fruit for Boom! Studios in July 2015.

In 2016, Waid and artist Humberto Ramos co-created The Champions for Marvel. The following year, Waid returned to the Captain America series beginning with issue #695 working with artist Chris Samnee. A new Doctor Strange series was launched by Waid and Jesus Saiz in 2018. Waid also launched with artist Javier Garrón a Ant-Man and the Wasp miniseries to tie into the release of the 2019 film of the same name.

At the 2018 New York Comic Con, Humanoids Publishing announced it was creating an imprint called H1 whose contributing creators included Waid.

On April 9, 2019, Marvel announced that Waid would write a five-issue miniseries featuring the Invisible Woman, her first solo series since her debut in 1961.

2020s
In December 2021, it was announced that Waid would be writing a new ongoing for DC entitled Batman/Superman: World's Finest, with Dan Mora serving as artist and beginning publication in March 2022. The events of World's Finest would later set up the events of Batman vs Robin and "Lazarus Planet", also written by Waid.

In April 2022, Waid was reported among the more than three dozen comics creators who contributed to Operation USA's benefit anthology book, Comics for Ukraine: Sunflower Seeds, a project spearheaded by IDW Publishing Special Projects Editor Scott Dunbier, whose profits would be donated to relief efforts for Ukrainian refugees resulting from the February 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. Waid teamed up with artist Gabriel Rodriguez (artist) to produce an original story with new characters created specifically for the anthology.

In November 2022, it was announced that Waid and Mora would be working on a new ongoing Shazam! series, beginning publication in May 2023. Mora departed from interior work with issue 6, while Waid left writing duties with issue 9.

In April 2023, it was announced that Waid would be writing two new projects for DC set to launch in July 2023. The first is a three-issue DC Black Label miniseries entitled Superman: The Last Days of Lex Luthor, illustrated by Bryan Hitch. It is a spiritual successor to Birthright. The second is a six-issue miniseries entitled World's Finest: Teen Titans, illustrated by Emanuela Lupacchino.

In February 2024, it was announced that Waid would be writing Absolute Power, a 4-issue event miniseries that would conclude the Dawn of DC publishing initiative and lead directly into the DC All-In initiative. The series reunites Waid with artist Dan Mora and follows Amanda Waller, having teamed up with Failsafe and the Brainiac Queen, as she seek to put an end to the metahuman population of the DC Universe, once and for all.

In July 2024, it was announced Waid would be reuniting with Chris Samnee for Batman and Robin: Year One, a 12-issue series set to begin publication in October 2024.

Legal issues
In September 2018 writer Richard Meyer, the creator of the YouTube channel Diversity & Comics, filed a civil lawsuit in Texas against Waid, claiming defamation and tortious interference on Waid's part. Meyer accused Waid of convincing Antarctic Press not to publish Meyer's graphic novel Jawbreakers. Waid launched a GoFundMe campaign to raise money to fight the suit, and denied having anything to do with Antarctic Press' decision, a statement verified in deposition by the publisher of Antarctic Press. Waid's fellow comics creators Neil Gaiman, Kurt Busiek, Dan Slott and Yanick Paquette contributed to his campaign, while artist Ethan Van Sciver began a similar campaign for Meyer which quickly surpassed Waid's in funding. Waid filed for the case to be dismissed. In December 2020, Meyer voluntarily withdrew the lawsuit and reached a confidential agreement.

Personal life
As of 2019, Waid lives in California.

title: Mark Waid


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Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 8

Hectares
User:Bobblewik is apparently on a quest to remove all measurements in hectares and replace them all with km&sup2. I checked the line about km² in the MOS was added by Egil on March 15, 2003 with no discussion on any of the 9 talk pages of material. The only mention of hectares was a comment that we should use it when appropriate to translate acres. Egil's purpose appears to mostly be about how to position the 2. The MOS already allows km/h where appropriate instead of m/s. Shouldn't hectares be allowed also. Personally I just wish you would all use acres. Any hectares users want to stick up for it? Rmhermen 03:40, Jun 30, 2004 (UTC)

 * I'll stick up for the hectare --- I think that it is a commonly used metric measurement for small land areas and it is the natural conversion unit from acres, being about 2.5 acres. -- hike395 10:57, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

There is this from the Chardonnay discussion page which ironically actually makes my point very well. I certainly think that 400 km² is a better way of describing the area. Bobblewik 12:51, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * Show me one source where anyone in agriculture refers to plantings (especially small acerage crops like wine) in square kilometres rather than hectares). You have a 40,000 hectare sheep station, not a 400 sq km one. dramatic 03:58, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

This is from my talk page. Bobblewik 12:51, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * Hectares are still a unit in modern usage. There is no reason to delete every mention of them in Wikipedia. Especially from articles which already include both hectares and sq. km. Rmhermen 20:03, Jun 29, 2004 (UTC)

 * Agreed. Certainly for agricultural and quasi-agricultural objects, like Parks, hectares are the units conventionally used so far as I know.  Is there a WikiProject page where this could be discussed, so we can get a consensus?  There are points to be made on both sides, because I do agree that most people who don't use the metric system for everyday purposes will find it easier to think what a square metre or a square Km would be like than to remember how much a hectare is.  So long as we can all unite to abolish the wretched acre...  seglea 23:55, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * Me too - hectares are standard terms in forestry measurement as well. Seglea, well said on the acre! (about the only thing worse is °F :-) - MPF 00:13, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * have you ever looked at irrigation literature? They use a barbarity called the acre-foot (the volume of water required to inundate an area of one acre to a depth of one foot).  seglea 02:08, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I also had a discussion with user Docu on this topic. I was rounding to the nearest km² in almost all cases. He said that integer km&sup2 did not have the same precision as integer hectares. I subsequently stopped rounding after conversion and kept all significant digits and that seemed to have resolved that particular issue. Bobblewik 12:51, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Note that the official SI status of the hectare is a unit that is tolerated but not encouraged. http://www1.bipm.org/en/si/si_brochure/chapter4/4-1.html

In general I agree that hectares seem a natural conversion from acres, but that looks at the issue from the point of view of translation. Communication is not about word for word translation from a source language, it is about expression in the target language. The metric system has not been developed as merely another way of expressing imperial units. It is futile to say that you must translate values in mile² -> km², ft² -> m², acre -> hectare. What you have to do is work out what the area actually is and pick the unit that is most appropriate. So a large area should be in km² and a small area in m².

The SI unit of area is based on the metre and all prefixes and powers. Large areas like countries are naturally in square kilometres, small areas like office space is in square metres. It is true that farms are often quoted in hectares, but not always. It is not essential to do so. It certainly does not mean that ordinary people understand hectares better than m&sup2 or km². I can understand a purely numerical argument that 1 to 100 hectares make convenient numbers between 10,000 m² (1 hectare) and 1 km² (100 hectares). That is a reasonable case, but it does make it odd to stick the unit right in the middle of a perfectly scalable and understandable unit.

If the area is described 10,000 hectares, this may be meaningful to a farmer or a land sale agent. However, I think that 100 km² is a perfectly reasonable way of expressing the area and it is certainly more understandable to many people. Similarly if commercial land is described as 25,000 m², that is much more meaningful to me than 2.5 hectares. I imagine that some people in the US are beginning to get an idea of a metre (about a yard) and an idea of a km (1.6 km = mile) and so m² and km² might be unfamiliar but not totally alien. Whereas I don't suppose many have a clue about hectares. The same applies to newly metric countries like Ireland and the UK.

I welcome this debate. I put a lot of work into my editorial contributions and I certainly want to add value rather than reduce it. Sometimes I have impossible demands from people (e.g. I have been told that converting 100,000 hectares -> 1,000.00 km² is overprecision and I need to round and I agree, yet I have been told by somebody else that I must maintain the original precision otherwise I am guilty of 'losing data'). I try to have simple general rules but I don't always get it right. I hope that other people share my view that the hectare, although a familiar word, is not necessarily as understandable as the alternatives. Bobblewik 12:52, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * I'm somewhat neutral on this issue but I'm a bit put off by the conversion of all hectares to square kilometers or square meters. I can understand converting 10,000 hectares to 100 square kilometers or converting 0.5 hectare to 5,000 square meters, but converting 10 hectares into 100,000 square meters or 0.1 square kilometer seems a bit over the top. The hectare is a very convenient unit since 1 km² = 1,000,000 m² and the hectare provides an intermediate unit between the large magnitude difference. For example, the following are all nice conversions: 1 km² = 100 hectares; 1 hectare = 10,000 m² 1 km = 1,000 m, 1 m = 100 cm; 1 m = 1,000 mm; 1 metric ton = 1,000 kg; 1 kg = 1,000g; 1 g = 1,000 mg; while the following is not: 1 km² = 1,000,000 m² = --seav 15:29, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

In the light of the discussion, I'd like to suggest a compromise solution, whose object is (a) to keep us all writing articles rather than getting into disputes about the presentation of details within them, and (b) to maximise usefulness to the reader: seglea 18:10, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * For small areas and all indoor areas, m² is preferred (uncontroversial);
 * For large land areas e.g. nations and substantial subnational entities, km² is preferred (uncontroversial);
 * For agricultural and kindred subject matters, hectares are preferred (because people reading those articles are likely to encounter other material that use them) but smaller areas areas may also be given in m² and larger ones may also be given in km²
 * Where articles currently use hectares, we do not remove them but we may supplement them with m² or km² as appropriate;
 * Where areas were originally measured or reported in acres, a translation into hectares should normally be included, though a translation into m² or km² may also be given.
 * Of course, for reasons much more general than the present discussion, where areas are quoted in acres a translation into some metric unit must always be provided.
 * Sounds good. We already had a three-way approach on U.S. national parks pages. As long as no one removes acres, I am satisfied. Rmhermen 19:33, Jun 30, 2004 (UTC)

 * This sounds really good to me. I would suggest "larger areas" be > 50 km², but I am willing to accept other thresholds, too. -- hike395 04:31, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

One other point to bear in mind - the hectare is a unit of area, the metre isn't; adding areas in metres (or km) requires the addition of superscript 2's, which buggers up the line spacing in the text, forcing lines to be about line-and-a-quarter spacing. Nearly, though not quite, like a new paragraph. I find this looks rather odd on a page with just an occasional superscript here & there, "why is this line at a different spacing to the rest". Also when writing pages myself, I find typing in the ampersand sup 2 stuff a bit tedious, another reason I tend to avoid using it as much as possible myself :-) MPF 20:03, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

An important principal here is for us Yanks (and are there other countries still using Imperial outside the sciences?) to hold back and let the general-purpose-metric users clarify what real usage is. Even science-trained Yanks are disqualified, bcz we have such a narrow view of the SI. I don't think anyone can evaluate what the relevant consensus is without knowing which opinions come from people who buy their food and real estate in SI. --Jerzy(t) 21:57, 2004 Jun 30 (UTC)

 * Other countries still using Imperial (or related systems)? Well, for everyday purposes, the UK (because of an act of crass political cowardice by Margaret Thatcher), but even in the UK, for legal and official purposes metric rules except on road signs.  Not sure about the position in Ireland, but probably similar to the UK - the answer will be in the wiki somewhere.  Nowhere else of significance (i.e. possibly the odd island British dependency somewhere), or not that I can think of right now.  (Apologies in advance to the residents of wherever it is that I've forgotten.)  seglea 23:56, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * I remember converting all the acreages on the map of our farm to hectares (to 3 digit accuracy) in around 1973 or 74. For official UK agricultural purposes the hectare has been used exclusively for around 30 years now, quite a while before the unsainted Margaret. In the example used upthread, I can quite clearly visualise what 2.5 hectares looks like (roughly a six acre field), but 25,000 m² means nothing to me. -- Arwel 15:39, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

For areas from 1 km² upwards, I would prefer km², even in the context of agriculture.--Patrick 12:20, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I agree. Taking this and Seglea's suggestions, I propose:

 * Metric units should always be provided (even if non-metric units are also provided).
 * SI units (e.g. mm², m², km²) are preferred and are always acceptable with other units
 * Hectares are acceptable, but not mandatory, if the area is between 10,000 m² and 1 km²
 * Hectares are acceptable, but not mandatory, for agricultural areas. However, beyond 100 km², it is recommended that hectares are not used. Bobblewik 18:43, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I had a discussion with Bobblewik about this back in April. The article on Logan International Airport had given the area only in acres. On 10 April 2004, he added the conversion to 10 km&sup2. I thought this was a good idea, but I replaced it with "1000 hectares" because I believe that "hectares" is the most culturally suitable "metric translation" of an area that is given in acres. However, I see that recently he changed it back to 10 km&sup2.

I noted at the time that the Aéroports de Paris website, http://www.adp.fr, gives all areas in hectares. I noted that a Google "advanced search" for pages written only in French returns about 60,000 hits on exact phrase "metres carres", 30,000 for "kilometres carres," and 228,000 for "hectares." I thought that Bobblewik had agreed that "hectare" was perfectly acceptable for the sort of land and area measurements which would customarily be expressed in "acres" in the U. S. Customary system. He gave a number of technical explanations as to why hectare was a sort of bastardized unit that doesn't fit properly into the SI system, reasons which I thought were cogent for scientific usage but pedantic in other contexts.

I have a very strong opinion on this, which is we should handle this the exactly same way we handle U. S. versus British spelling: by quoting Emerson. ("A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.") Therefore:
 * If a page which mentions an area in acres or in square miles does not have a metric equivalent, a metric equivalent should be added. This is a Good Thing to do.
 * It doesn't really matter much whether the unit is hectares, km&sup2, or m&sup2, because the units are easily converted mentally.
 * The person adding the metric measurement should feel free to follow his or her preference.
 * To change a measurement already given in hectares to km&sup2 is a Dumb Thing to do.
 * To change a measurement already given in km&sup2 to hectares. is a Dumb Thing to do. Dpbsmith 20:55, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Given that Bobblewik has just converted > 300 articles of hectares over to km&sup2, even if we adopt the laissez faire approach you suggest, we still have to figure out what to do about those articles. Do we
 * Leave them as they stand (to not do the Dumb Thing of changing them)?
 * Convert them all back to hectares (trying to undo a newly declared Dumb Thing)?
 * Adopt some standard and convert using the standard?
 * And if we're going to change them by some standard, why not just use the standard going forward? These aren't rhetorical questions, I'm really unsure what is the Right Thing to do (I wouldn't mind the laissez faire approach going forward). -- hike395 04:59, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I like the 'foolish consistency' phrase and use it myself (when it suits me).
 * Metric units are not word for word translations of non-metric words. The understanding of the metric reader is not connected to the non-metric expression. Small metric values should be in small units, large metric values in large units. Simple for the reader, and simple guidance for the editor. It would be a bizarre metric read if otherwise.
 * A metric expression should not depend on how non-metric units have been used in past edits or in the current edit.
 * It is not reasonable to assume that the non-metric expression is the best guide to the appropriate metric expression. I have seen a lot of non-metric expressions during the translation process, the only thing that is common is inconsistency. Just take a look around with this in mind. It is partly a feature of the variety of non-metric units (e.g. the same volume of oil can be in ft³, US gallons, barrels etc), and partly a feature of independent authors. There are articles that describe county area in acres and others that use mile². I have simply used the appropriate metric unit based on the numerical value. Since counties are always greater than 1 km², the unit will be the km². I will not track down all the authors and debate their inconsistent choice of non-metric units.
 * I had not agreed that the hectare is perfectly acceptable. However, in the interests of cooperation, I am willing to tolerate it as long as others are willing to negotiate circumstances that are finite.
 * I do not accept that people know that 10,000 hectares is 100 km². The hectare definitely is less understandable than the km² for metric readers (and indeed for non-metric users just becoming aware of km).
 * The conversion of the Logan airport article was simply because it came up in my global search. It is difficult for me to remember all the preferences of individuals, and their interactions with mine. As I have said before, the requests are sometimes contradictory. I try to analyse all the comments and subsequently act in the best way that I can. But I can't maintain a large set of unique constraints. I had forgotten about your request in that case. Sorry. That is why this manual style is another Good thing.

To take Dpbsmith's points in turn:
 * Quote [If a page which mentions an area in acres or in square miles does not have a metric equivalent, a metric equivalent should be added. This is a Good Thing to do.}
 * Agreed.
 * Quote [It doesn't really matter much whether the unit is hectares, km&sup2, or m&sup2, because the units are easily converted mentally.]
 * I disagree. It does matter. Yes, the arithmetic conversion is simple. But no, the units are not equally understandable in practice. Hectares are more obscure to ordinary people.
 * Quote [The person adding the metric measurement should feel free to follow his or her preference.]
 * Agreed. Regardless of what the manual of style says, other people will behave as if they are free.
 * Quote [To change a measurement already given in hectares to km&sup2 is a Dumb Thing to do.]
 * I disagree. That change is smart because values in km&sup2 are more understandable.
 * Quote [To change a measurement already given in km&sup2 to hectares. is a Dumb Thing to do.]
 * Agreed.

Let me repeat my proposal for the manual of style:
 * Metric units should always be provided (even if non-metric units are also provided).
 * SI units (e.g. mm², m², km²) are preferred and are always acceptable with other units
 * Hectares are acceptable, but not mandatory, if the area is between 10,000 m² and 1 km²
 * Hectares are acceptable, but not mandatory, for agricultural areas. However, beyond 100 km², it is recommended that hectares are not used. Bobblewik 11:23, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I would suggest one further addition to this: That the threshold at which hectares may be used is higher when discussing accumulations of many small areas. For example, vineyards: If the worldwide planting of Chardonnay is 140,000 Hectares but they typical individual planting is in the 0.5 - 2 hectare range, then 140,000 Hectares gives a much clearer understanding than 140 km² dramatic 12:32, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Hectares are very much the standard in (non-US) forestry literature, even where areas involved are large (e.g. citations of a resource, or a major forest fire, as 10 million hectares, etc). I'd like to make a suggestion, that the 300-odd articles where hectares have been removed, that the hectare figure be re-instated, with the sq. km figure in brackets afterward as a useful guide for those less familiar with hectares, at least where articles involving trees / forestry topics are concerned. - MPF 13:57, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I don't think anyone objects to requiring metric units (I would like to require customary measurements also but never got much support for that.) SI unit are fine and prefered in general so that is also fine in this context. However Bobblewik's last two points are questionable. Hectares should be used in whatever contexts they are typically used in practice. I don't know about small areas but it appears clear that they are used for some very large areas at least in the context of parks and forestry. We need to strive to make Wikipedia data accessible and that can only be enhanced by using units in their typical applications (while providing major alternate units for the rest of us.) Rmhermen 15:25, Jul 2, 2004 (UTC)

There are several points here: Some of the arguments for hectares are from people in non-metric environments. That does not mean that the points are invalid, but it relevant to how anyone reading this debate might choose to balance the arguments. I have put a lot of effort in so far and I do not anticipate undoing anything, but I have offered a proposal that constrains my future work. Can we move the proposal forward? Bobblewik 12:17, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Quote [Hectares should be used in whatever contexts they are typically used].
 * In non-metric countries, units are very context sensitive. For example volume can be expressed in acre.feet, gallons, barrels, bushels, feet³ yard³ etc. These look odd out of context and 'normal' in context, so you have to know which unit goes with which context. So people in non-metric environments regard context as an inherent part of unit choice and assume that the same should apply to metric units. However, metric units are much less context sensitive, so context is not a deciding factor.
 * How do we define context? I have already offered a compromise that suggests a context called agriculture.
 * How do we define typical? What would it be a percent of? What would be our threshold percentage?
 * Quote [We need to strive to make Wikipedia data accessible]
 * I agree. The hectare is less understandable to ordinary people than km². So Wikipedia should use km² even if official sources use hectares.

 * Quote: "The hectare is less understandable to ordinary people than km². So Wikipedia should use km² even if official sources use hectares." Is this really true? I didn't go back and check all of this thread, but I only recally Bobblewik making this claim while a couple of others have pointed out that hectares are still commonly used. What is the actual evidence for this one way or the other beyond personal opinion and experience. I mean no offence Bobblewik--I'm just trying to understand. older ≠ wiser 13:59, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * I don't know what nationality Dbpsmith is but I note that the data he puts forth using hectares is French. If the French aren't a metric environment than who is? Rmhermen 14:24, Jul 3, 2004 (UTC)
 * From a New Zealand perspective, I would rate the hectare as much better understood than the sqare kilometre. Just about the only thing regularly reported in square kilometers is areas of ocean (e.g. the search area if someone is missing). Everything else - farms, forests, national parks, is expressed in Hectares. Also, the traditional residential property size (until 20 years ago when we "ran out" of urban land) is 1000m². Most people here can visualize that, so visualizing a hectare as 10 of those sections is much easier than relating to a square kilometre. dramatic 12:40, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Google has many country specific pages. If you go to www.google.fr you will see: 26,300 sq km 56,400 sq m 40,500 kilomètres carrés 77,100 mètres carrés 87,700 km² 232,000 hectares OR hectare 1,090,000 m2

I am not sure what that means. There are other ways of representing m² and km² that I do not know how to search for. In addition, I do not know how to limit the search to areas of a particular size range.

Statistics are useful for illumination and I do not dispute that the hectare is commonplace in some contexts in very metric countries. But context and frequency of use are what you say are the deciders. I do not say that. I say that size of area is the decider, and that large areas should be in km². Anyway, if we did what the majority does, we would only use metric units. :)

Dbpsmith also says it doesn't really matter much. If it does not matter, why provide any guidance at all? I would be quite happy to carry on as I was. I happen to think hectares are less understandable than km² and so that is why I made the changes. I accept that some of you think that the km² is worse than the hectare. I don't think I can prove my claim without involving ordinary members of the public in an experiment.

Anyway, in the interests of cooperation, I have offered a proposal that compromises my position. What now? Bobblewik 15:43, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Just been checking back - a lot of Bobblewik's edits converting ha to sq km have involved rounding up/down of precise areas. These (several hundred of them! - e.g. the Bindarri National Park page, to chose one randomly, has lost 21 hectares) should be restored to their originally given precise values - MPF 20:04, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I think using km² is an improvement; with regard to precision: I am not very interested in the high precision, and would put 53 rather than 53.21 if I would write this article, but would not round what is already there, apparently because other people like the precision.--Patrick 20:34, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Loss of precision is loss of information --- if we provide precise values in WP, then users can always mentally round the values off. Generally, WP contributors strive to show maximum sensible precision. -- hike395 20:52, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Now what?
To follow up on Bobblewik's question, above, now what? It seems to me we have two linked issues: standards going forward, and what to do about the (hundreds? of) previously converted articles. And there doesn't seem to be a consensus yet. I've tried to summarize the various positions (as I understand them):

Standards going forward:
 * 1) No standard, let authors choose either km² or hectares
 * 2) SI unit square areas by default, allow hectares for specific topics (agriculture, parks, forestry, etc.), possibly for areas smaller than a threshold.

Converted articles:
 * 1) Revert to pre-conversion state
 * 2) Keep as km²
 * 3) Convert to match standard decided on, above

We can either try and reach consensus, which would probably settle on something not in these list of positions. It's hard for me to imagine other alternatives, but I've seen very creative resolution to disagreements in WP in the past, so I always have hope. Does anyone have any ideas that would bridge the gap between the proposals?

Or, we can go to a vote (as suggested by Moriori, below). Would people be willing to abide by a vote? If not, then it's pointless to vote. Another disadvantage of a vote is the delay --- if we want to roll back or change the articles, it gets more difficult day-by-day. But, a vote would hopefully settle things once and for all.

Comments? -- hike395 21:09, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * My view is that on 'Standards going forward', no.2 is best; I don't think there should be a threshold limit on hectares in agri/forestry/parks, as figures of tens of millions of hectares are in widespread use in these fields. For converted articles, I think they should be reverted to restore lost precision; then if desired km² can be added in brackets - MPF 21:25, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * 'Standards going forward', no.2 and 'Converted articles' no 3 sound good to me. My proposal is in line with that. I share Patrick's views.
 * Bobblewik 22:01, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Perhaps I am mistaking quiet for consensus, but it sounds like Standard No. 2 with no upper threshold and going back and converting to that standard is acceptable to everyone. I'll put this into the main page (we can yank it out if people scream). Bobblewik: would you be up for converting from km² back to hectares for the agricultural/forestry/park/wilderness articles? I went back to your history of changes away from hectares, started working backwards, and ran out of energy at Battery Park. -- hike395 11:30, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Standard No. 2 mentions topics (yet to be agreed) and a threshold (yet to be agreed). That was painful enough but I certainly cannot agree if there is no debate about the topics or the threshold.

I am grateful to Dpbsmith for conducting an opinion survey. It asked 3 questions involving acres and invited word for word translations of incomplete text such as: However, it did not ask parallel word for word translation questions using such as: (I took that area from the page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_International_Airport)
 * Boston's Logan International Airport occupies 2,400 acres or <   >
 * Orlando International Airport covers 23 square miles or <    >

In any case, this misses the point. Readers do not come to Wikipedia to translate between units. We are here to do that for them. They only come here to understand the text. The question for us is how to maximise understanding after we do the translation for them. Therefore an appropriate survey would address the result of translation (not the process). It would ask questions like:
 * Is the size of the airport easier to understand in the first or the second sentence?
 * Orlando International Airport covers 60 km²
 * Orlando International Airport covers 6000 hectares

This difference between idea of official word for word translation and understandable communication is summed up by the following comment:
 * ''hectares is correct, but I confess (since i'm not a farmer) I sometimes find square metres or even square kilometres (for huge areas) easier to mentally picture.
 * Erich 14:01, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)''

We also have other comments such as:
 * For those sizes, definitely km².
 * Fredrik

 * Hectares are the commonest units for areas less than 1 km² and greater then 10 000 m². There are a million m² in a km², hectares fill the middle of this range quite usefully. But note that the are and the hectare are not proper SI units, they are tolerated but not encouraged.
 * Chris Jefferies 19:55, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

843 acres ≈ 3.4 km², 2,400 acres ≈ 10 km², 640 acres ≈ 2.6 km². How are these "monstrous"?''
 * ''I totally agree with Erich. Perhaps fifty or a hundred years ago, when the majority of people were much more informed in matters of land and farming, hectares would have been instantly understood by Europeans. Today, we don't have this immediate everyday connection to the unit (nor really to any other area unit larger than m², the measure of our houses and apartments). Most(?) people will know from school how large a hectare is, though, so they can picture the size if they give it some thinking effort. Given that the numbers for the examples given would be a bit monstrous in either m² or km², hectares might just be the best compromise – but m² would be more readily understood. -- Jao 13:15, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Fredrik | talk 21:02, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * ''They are not. I should have thought twice about the figures. :)
 * Jao 11:33, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I think using km² is an improvement; with regard to precision: I am not very interested in the high precision, and would put 53 rather than 53.21 if I would write this article, but would not round what is already there, apparently because other people like the precision.
 * Patrick 20:34, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

So despite the question about understandability not being asked, it has been mentioned. You see that there is support for the view that a value in hectares is less understandable. There is no support for the view that hectares is more understandable and I don't know why it is so important to use them. The only thing you can say is that some people are used to seeing farming use it and therefore think hectares are more official for farms, but I don't feel inclined to downgrade understandability for that.

The debate is much simpler if we set the translation issue to one side and concentrated on what the metric reader should see in a 100% metric page. The issue is the same with or without non-metric. After all, many of the pages that I converted from hectares to SI were metric only. If you look at what Fredrik, Patrick, Jao, Patrick and myself say, the hectare does not support understanding by the non-farming reader. I have no idea why some Americans appear to be so keen on the hectare. Since I have support but not universal, I am willing to compromise as follows:

I propose that: I see no reason to include non-food such as forests, lakes or parks. If we can reach consensus on this, I will help implement it.
 * SI units are preferred for all areas
 * Hectares will be accepted for any area between 10 000 m² and 1 km². This partially acknowledges those that put a priority on the convenient numerical values argument.
 * Hectares will be accepted for areas growing human food up to 100 km². This partially acknowledges those that put a priority on the official usage in metric sources argument.

Of course, there will be fuzzy instances that need to be considered on a case by case basis (such as a table or text including many values). Bobblewik 14:34, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I note your repeated claim that hectares are less understandable and that there have been requests that you provide some evidence that this is the case. I also note that some areas are often reported in non-U.S. sources in hectares for areas outside of farming and for areas larger than 1 km². I notice that the IUCN world body for protected areas reports park sizes in hectares or in both hectares and km². Also it would be very strange to see the article says that "National parks in the Netherlands were defined in the 1960's as: "Areas of at least 1000 hectares..." and than have the sizes of the parks listed in only in km². A method I have tried is to list all three units at least once in the article so 10 acres (4 hectares, 0.04 km²) and than used only the customary unit and a single metric unit in the rest of the article. In the U.S. national parks articles we have acres and hectares in the box and acres and km² in the text of the article (although it probably should be changed to mi² and km² in the text.) Rmhermen 16:25, Jul 8, 2004 (UTC)

 * Quote[I note your repeated claim that hectares are less understandable and that there have been requests that you provide some evidence that this is the case.].
 * Look back at what I have written, I thought that I had talked convincingly around that point a couple of times. Look at what Erich and Jao also say. Beyond that, I cannot offer you anything more evidential than my assertion. Sorry. Feel free to regard it as merely the opinion of a few random people. There is certainly nobody making a counterclaim that hectares are easier to understand than SI units.

 * Quote[I notice that the IUCN world body for protected areas reports park sizes in hectares or in both hectares and km².]
 * Yes. I have already acknowledged that official sources use hectares and km². No disagreement there.

 * Quote[Also it would be very strange to see the article says that "National parks in the Netherlands were defined in the 1960's as: "Areas of at least 1000 hectares..." and than have the sizes of the parks listed in only in km².]
 * If it was a direct quote of the definition essential to the article, then, yes, it would seem a bit odd. If I came across that article and found the exact quote inessential then I would reword to an indirect quote saying 10 km². After all, it hardly matters if you define low birth weight baby as under 2,500 g or as under 2.5 kg. However, if we are that close to an agreement, then I won't let it come between us. I have already stated that mixes of units on a page may be a case by case issue.

 * Quote[A method I have tried is to list all three units at least once in the article so 10 acres (4 hectares, 0.04 km²) and than used only the customary unit and a single metric unit in the rest of the article.
 * The example you give is compatible with my proposal because it is an area between 10,000 m² and 1 km². So I have no problem with that.

 * Are we getting close to an agreement now?

Bobblewik 19:22, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Certainly not here yet. The comment "I see no reason to include non-food such as forests, lakes or parks" goes against what several people have been saying, and I personally disagree very strongly. As I have already pointed out, hectares are the standard in forestry use (see e.g. the UK Forestry Commission statistics, where the UK forest area is cited as 2,722,000 hectares; see also and  (pdf files, sorry don't know why they won't form auto-links) for full official UK forestry statistics, all in hectares). The same appears to apply to national parks in most parts of the world. If we are to make our data compatible with what people will find elsewhere, we should use hectares as the basic measure in these subjects. Just because the hectare is not a base SI unit does not mean it should be excluded, any more than all temperature citations throughout Wikipedia should be changed from °Celsius to Kelvin. As I've said before, I have no objection to square km being added in brackets for those less familiar with hectares. - MPF 10:12, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Yes. The UK Forestry Commission uses hectares and km² "Today, native Caledonian pinewoods are found at 84 sites in the north and west of Scotland, covering around 180 square kilometres". A brief web search shows that hectares are used in about 80% of forestry references and km² is used in about 20%. I am not sure if that meets your definition of standard, but it is certainly much more frequent. It still does not stop the km² being, to quote Ricardo, easier to envision.

I was promoting the use of m² and km² only. Because you guys seem so keen on the hectare, I am now offering to tolerate it in line with the proposal that I have made. Feel free to make a different proposal. I am keen to get an agreement. Bobblewik 18:27, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Since the subject has not come up yet -- if I were to buy a piece of property in a metric-using country, what would the unit on the deed be? A quick google search on "land sale hectare" brought back 158,000 pages while "land sale meter" brought back only 14,100 and "land sale kilometer" brought back 5,540 (although one of the top ten discussed number of land mines per km² - not land I would rush out to buy.) Do deeds list square meters or hectares? Rmhermen 02:05, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * Hi Rm - you get a lot more equal google results if you use the normal spelling metre and kilometre. On a brief look, square metres (264,000 hits, adding together 'land sale metre' and 'land sale metres') win on small areas ("800 square metres" etc, etc), and hectares (240,000 hits) on larger sales, but with kilometres (128,000 hits) clearly a poor third (tho' of course land sales of over 1 sq km are going to be rare). Difficult to judge from google return numbers though, as metres and kilometres also frequently cropped up as linear measures, rather than area measures, on individual pages: this would give hecatares greater importance than their hit-rate suggests. Hectares are also used for large sales, e.g. a parcel of 68,905 hectares. Never been rich enough to buy any land myself . . . MPF 11:21, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * I thought the Google results were odd which is why I asked for someone more familiar with it. Surely we Wikipedians haven't all spent our money on upgrading our computers. Rmhermen 14:01, Jul 12, 2004 (UTC)

Size doesn't matter
I think that the whole discussion about the range of sizes appropriate for hectares is misguided. The difference in usage of hectares and square kilometres isn't in the size but what they are used for. Square metres and kilometres are measurements of surface area (size of one's appartement, area covered by a city, area of a country, surface of the moon), while ares and hectares are measurements of land used for some purpose (farming land, forests, etc.).

So, a 20,000 hectares of forest on a landowner's estate can change into 200 sq kms of forest in a newly established national park. Zocky 14:14, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Precision of converted hectare values
I'm not sure this page is the place to discuss what is IMO also missing from this discussion: a clear sense of the precision issues; perhaps someone will point out a better place to pursue this. Until then:
 * The obvious approach is describe land in US in the style
 * xx acres (yy hectares)
 * and land in the sensible parts of the world ala
 * xx hectares (yy acres)

However that is accurate only when there are independent reliable figures in both systems. More often, and i think overwhelmingly in Bobblewik's case, there is one figure available, and it is being converted using a ratio. That coversion always entails a loss of precision, contrary to the advice someone gave. (More later about why.) Given that,
 * the units in the source (whether or not appropriate to the place being described) should be mentioned first, and the converted form should follow in paren.

When that puts them in the wrong order, there's an excellent chance that the source did a conversion, and coverting it back will produce something close to the original value, but not exactly, and not with the same precision. When the size of a US park is quoted in hectares or km2, what is needed is needed for accuracy is usually to track down the source that was used by the source that quoted the SI figure, and use that original acre figure instead of converting to acres.

The first example quoted above is to the point:
 * converting 100,000 hectares -> 1,000.00 km² is overprecision because
 * 100,000 hectares

justifies only one digit of precision, rather than 6; it is not equivalent to
 * 100,000. hectares

which is the amount that would justify conversion to
 * 1,000.00 km²

are off-base:

Let's take an example, using the 2.5 hectares figure. Suppose the plot is ".67 acre more or less" (which is how deeds generally state it!). You can't even just put .67 into the conversion program, and it's even worse with a two digit ration. What you have here is
 * .67 +/- .005 times 2.5 +/- .05.

Hence
 * .675 times 2.55 = 1.72125

and
 * .665 times 2.45 = 1.60475

and the only figure fit for running text is 2 hectares. If the 2.5 figure were precise, the problem would become
 * .67 +/- .005 times 2.5.

Which yields
 * .675 times 2.5 = 1.6875

and
 * .665 times 2.5 = 1.6625

or in running text 1.7 hectares. Note that the running-text acre figure is accurate to within 1 part in 134 but the hectare one is 1 part in 34, about 4 times worse precision. No, you can't retain the original precision without turning WP into a science treatise. --Jerzy(t) 21:57, 2004 Jun 30 (UTC)

 * I think Jerzy is right on the principles here, but the example, oddly, is wrong. The US govt & its agencies now (mostly) use the metric system for official documents, so the original size of something like a national park may well have been given in hectares anyway. That's why the old units are called US "customary" units rather than just US units.  seglea 23:49, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * In my experience, the United States Forest Service and the United States Park Service seems to quote sizes in terms of acres, so this discussion is far from moot for forests, parks, and agricultural land. -- hike395 04:28, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * There was a period when the US did use metric measures extensively in official documents, maps, etc., before the US metrication board supinely capitulated to the anti-metric redneck supremacy. A lot of the USGS maps for example have altitudes & contour lines marked in metres, as on e.g. this map (Mount Whitney, California; benchmark 4416.9 m) at the Topozone website. - MPF 14:33, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * They still provide map series in both customary and metric . Doesn't apply to the question of hectares though. Rmhermen 15:25, Jul 2, 2004 (UTC)

Hectares: Evidence for culturally corresponding units?
Bobblewik, could you provide some evidence for your (repeated) assertion "the hectare definitely is less understandable than the km² ?" I'm not ready to believe it without some support, e.g. a nontechnical style guide.

Everything I look at suggests to me that "hectare" is the common and easily understood unit and that it has what I'll call a cultural correspondence to acre, i.e. it is used in the same context in which acres are used.

If I look up "acre" in the American Heritage Dictionary, it refers me to a table of "Conversion Between Metric and U. S. Customary Units." For "acres," the only conversion offered is to "hectares." In the other direction, the only conversion offered for "square kilometers" is to "square miles." I believe that the kilometer and the mile are culturally corresponding units, that the square kilometer and square mile are culturally corresponding units, and that the hectare and the acre are culturally corresponding units.

If I look up "metric system" in the (year 2000) World Almanac, I find a section of "tables of equivalences" in which, under areas, it shows 1 acre = 43,560 square feet, 4840 square yards, and 0.405 hectare. No other conversions are offered.

If an article said that a European car got 12 km/liter, I would very annoyed if someone "helpfully" tried to convert this to 30 inches per minim, even though this is a perfectly correct conversion into U. S. customary units. Dpbsmith 11:48, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * For a European car, you should actually say 8.5 l per 100 km, as that is the common measurement. Zocky 13:52, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I understand that you are challenging my claim about more understandable. I am happy to debate that.

However, you then make a different point about culturally corresponding units which is a different point. If you look back, I have addressed this point already when I spoke about word for word translation. You cannot look at the metric system as a word for word translation of non-metric units. I can't speak good French by looking each word up in a dictionary and replacing it with the English 'equivalent'. You demonstrate this in your example, converting 'mile/gallon' word for word into 'km/liter' is an incorrect translation. It should be L/(100 km). Similarly, you try to translate an American recipe such as: Those are volume units so the word for word translation is: but that is an incorrect translation. Metric recipes measure solids by weight, not volume.
 * http://www.highlonesomeranch.com/Canning%20meat.htm
 * 3 cups onions
 * 2 quarts carrots
 * 3 cups chopped celery
 * 710 ml sliced onions
 * 1893 ml carrots
 * 710 ml chopped celery

You then make a further point about translating from metric into non-metric and ending up with inches per minim. Thank you for the example. That supports my point in several ways:
 * Firstly it shows the failure of blind word for word translations.
 * Secondly it shows that translators from the source culture may be less aware of nuances than those from the target culture. So you may be better than me at translating metric into non-metric, but I may be better than you at translating non-metric into metric.

As far as understandability is concerned, you will just have to ask a group of 100 metric people (not farmers) to consider an area and tell you how big it is in the three different units (m², km² hectares). Tell them verbally about an area that is greater than 1 km² but only tell it in hectares to 50 of them, and only in km² to the other 50. Ask them to explain what that value means in terms of the real world around them. Then ask them to demonstrate their knowledge of converting between the three units.

If you say an area is 4 km², you will certainly have more people knowing what it means than if you say it is 400 hectares. I cannot believe that anyone thinks otherwise. I have never had to think about this before because it seems so self-evident. If you have people around you that know the metric system, try the above experiment and see. Bobblewik 13:41, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I am currently trying a somewhat similar experiment at:, Village Pump, and in the USENET newsgroup soc.culture.french. I am, however, asking for an expression of preference (what unit would they expect to see "acres" converted into) and simply trusting that they know what unit is most understandable to them. Dpbsmith 16:50, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * P. S. First four responses from soc.culture.french are:

 * En général, on utilisera les millimètres carrés, ça permet de garder toutes les décimales après conversions du système (?) américain. Ceux qui ont travaillé dans l'industrie avec des "spécifications" américaines vous le confirmerons. Pour les carters ou capots de machines, en informatique, on utilisera le µ. C'est de l'électronique, non ?

 * Plutôt hectares pour les superficies de terrains à destination agricole "Le département du Cantal mesure 10 000 km²" "Le jardin des Dupont fait 200 m2" "Mr Dupont cultive 75 hectares en blés de semence" Btw, 1 hectare ~ 2.5 acres

 * Je dirais km² ou hectares.

 * hectare

Is there going to be a vote on this?
If there is, as we are talking about area, I vote for a measurement specifying area (hectare) over a unit of length (kilometre) that needs to be dealt to to indicate area. Moriori 03:56, Jul 3, 2004 (UTC)
 * I had entered a number of articles in Portuguese geography in hectares, as that is what my source used and I did not know that the km² conversion was as simple as dividing by 100. I was upset at the conversion at first, but then realized that km² is easier to envision than hectares.  However, when converting, precision should be maintained (999 ha shoud be 9.99 km² not 10 km²).  Perhaps rather than converting, we should just make sure hectare is wikified.  Just some thoughts.  Nelson Ricardo 13:00, Jul 9, 2004 (UTC)