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Kirpal Singh

Kirpal Singh (6 February 1894 – 21 August 1974) was a spiritual master (satguru) in the tradition of Radha Soami.

Kirpal Singh was born in Sayyad Kasran, Punjab, in what is now Pakistan. He lived in Lahore during the period of his discipleship and attained a high position in the bureaucracy as a deputy comptroller of military accounts.

He was the President of the World Fellowship of Religions, an organization recognized by UNESCO, which had representatives from all the main religions of the world. Beginning with the publication of Gurmat Sidhant, authored by him in the late 1930s and published under his Guru's name, during the period of his ministry he published many books and circulars that were translated into numerous languages.

The teaching of the Surat Shabd Yoga is a path of personal spiritual attainment under the guidance of a living spiritual master. The basic teachings consist in opening the inner eye or third eye to develop vision of inner light and inner sound. This is considered to be the power of the unmanifested Godhead coming into expression and is called Word in the Bible, and Naam, Shabd, Om, Kalma, and other names in the other scriptures. Kirpal Singh taught that the practice of meditation on the Divine Word, or the Yoga of the Sound Current (Surat Shabd Yoga) was at the spiritual base of all religions.

Life
From youth, Kirpal Singh had visionary experience and foreknowledge of events. He sought guidance from various sufis, yogis and mystics, but never accepted any of them as a master, and continued his spiritual practice and prayers for the guidance of a living teacher. In 1917, he began to see a spiritual form that he believed was Guru Nanak, founder of the Sikh religion. In 1924, he met Hazur Maharaj Sawan Singh Ji, the famous Saint of the Beas, in his Ashram on the banks of the Beas River, and in him recognized the luminous form he had seen during the seven previous years. Hazur initiated him into Surat Shabd Yoga, and from then on Kirpal Singh dedicated his life to the mission of his spiritual Master and to his practices, while married, with children and in a responsible government position. Baba Sawan Singh Ji Maharaj asked him to meditate six hours daily, a practice which he maintained throughout his discipleship, despite his life responsibilities.

From early the 1930s on, when Hazur was asked if he had a disciple who had made great progress, he cited Kirpal Singh. In the same years, on inspiration from his master, Kirpal began writing the "Gurmat Siddhant" ("The Philosophy of the Masters"), a two-volume spiritual work, in the Punjabi and Urdu languages. It was published, on Kirpal request, under the name of Hazur Maharaj Sawan Singh Ji. In the 1960s, it was published in English in five volumes. Ruhani Satsang published a number of books under Kirpal Singh's name that were essentially portions of Gurmat Sidhant.

On the morning of 12 October 1947, Hazur Maharaj Sawan Singh Ji entrusted his disciple Kirpal Singh with the work of continuing his spiritual mission. The next month, Hazur approved the project of the "Ruhani Satsang" (School of Spirituality or Science of the Soul) Kirpal presented to him. Hazur Maharaj Sawan Singh Ji died on 2 April 1948, following a brief illness.

After his master's passing, Kirpal went to Rishikesh at the foot of the Himalayan Mountains, where he spent the next five months in an almost continual state of samadhi, or absorption in God.

At the end of this period of intense meditation, Kirpal Singh received an inner command from his master: "Return to the world and bring my children back to me." He moved to Delhi, where people from Punjab were looking for refuge because of the division from Pakistan, and there began his spiritual and humanitarian mission.

Kirpal initiated over 80,000 followers

Ruhani Satsang
In Delhi, Kirpal Singh founded his new school of spiritual research and realization, called Ruhani Satsang (School of Spirituality or Science of the Soul), which would go on to have branches in many nations of the world. In 1951 he built the Sawan Ashram, in the neighborhood of Shakti Nagar on the outskirts of the city, where his spiritual talks (satsangs) were soon followed by thousands of people.

He began to have visits from western disciples. The first was Rusel Jacque, whose account of his six months at the ashram in 1959 (Gurudev: the Lord of Compassion) encouraged others to make the journey. At the beginning of the sixties, an average 40 to 50 disciples stayed at the ashram from three weeks to six months.

Vegetarianism
The vegetarian Sattvic diet was an important part of Singh's teachings. He recommended a simple lacto-vegetarian diet consisting of fruit, grains, nuts and vegetables with permitted dairy products for spiritual reasons. Meat, eggs and spices were strictly avoided as they were considered Rajsic and Tamsic foods. He argued against overfeeding.

World Fellowship of Religions
In 1957, Singh was elected the first president of the World Fellowship of Religions, an organization recognized by UNESCO, comprising representatives from all the major world religions. He held that position until 1971, and presided over four World Conferences.

In 1962, he became the first non-Christian to receive the Order of Saint John of Jerusalem (Knights of Malta) for his spiritual and humanitarian work. On this occasion he received the congratulations of India's prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru, and established a spiritual tie with him that continued with prime ministers Lal Bahadur Shastri and Indira Gandhi.

First tour
Singh's mission continued to grow rapidly. In 1955, he made his first trip abroad to spread his teachings, and spent months in the United States and Europe. It was the first time an Indian spiritual master had visited the West. In those years, Eastern spiritual practices were generally unfamiliar to the West. Singh had hundreds of Westerners initiated and placed on the path of meditation, which he claimed led to contact with the Divine Light and Harmony.

In 1963, Singh made his second world tour, this time as president of the World Fellowship of Religions. He met with political leaders and other religious leaders, including Pope Paul VI and the Patriarch of the Eastern Orthodox Churches Atenagora I. At the same time, he continued to instruct new seekers on the path of the Way of the Masters (Sant Mat).

On 26 August 1972, Kirpal Singh conducted his third and final tour of the West, where he received and instructed more than 2000 new disciples of the Path of Spirituality.

Final year
In Delhi in February 1974, Singh organized the World Conference on Unity of Man. More than 2000 delegates attended, including religious and political leaders from India and around the world. Over 100,000 people attended the conference in total.

At the Kumba Mela (Festival of Religions) in Haridwar on 2 April of the same year, Singh gathered sadhus (itinerant monks) and "saintly men" in the Conference of National Unity, with the aims of promoting cooperation, eliminating religious barriers, and bettering the economic status of India's poor.

In 1974 Kirpal Singh established the Unity of Man conference, which was intended as a platform to bring together both religious and political leaders towards finding common ground and improved relations. This conference, under the name, Human Unity Conference, continues to this day.

Legacy and succession
Kirpal Singh died on 21 August 1974 at the age of eighty. His death caused a succession dispute amongst his followers.

There is Pier Franco Marcenaro, who, after his Initiation in January 1968, was his Group Leader and Representative in Milan, Italy, and is today a recognized successor by many disciples organized in an association called "The School of Spirituality".

In 1963, Kirpal Singh had declared that he knew of no one competent to be his successor. Then He stated most forcefully: "Whoever may come up in the future, I tell you most definitely that he will NOT be a member of my family!"

These succession disputes ultimately led to the proliferation of satsangs without connection to any descendant of the Singh tradition. As of 2002, there were approximately 200,000 adherents of groups related to Kirpal Singh.

Available teachings
Kirpal Singh wrote an extensive collection of books on spirituality, including The Crown of Life (a comparative study of various religions and yogas); Prayer, Its Nature and Technique; Spirituality: What It Is; Godman (on finding a spiritual teacher or guru), and The Wheel of Life (on karma).

PDF versions of Kirpal Singh's books are available free online., as are MP3 recordings of many of his talks in English and Hindi / Punjabi.

Books by Kirpal Singh

 * The Coming Spiritual Revolution (compiled, edited and introduced by Russell Perkins) – New Hampshire, Sant Bani
 * The Crown of Life: A Study in Yoga – Delhi: Ruhani Satsang, 1961; Franklin, New Hampshire: Sant Bani; Bowling Green, Virginia: Sawan Kirpal Publications, 1980 (ISBN 978-0-942735-77-2)
 * The Philosophy of the Masters. R. D. Ahluwalia, 1963.
 * Godman – Delhi: Ruhani Satsang; Franklin, New Hampshire: Sant Bani; Bowling Green, Virginia: Sawan Kirpal Publications (ISBN 978-0-942735-70-3)
 * A Great Saint: Baba Jaimal Singh, His Life and Teachings – Delhi: Ruhani Satsang; Franklin, New Hampshire: Sant Bani (ISBN 978-0-942735-27-7)
 * Heart to Heart Talks (2 volumes) – Delhi: Mr A.R. Manocha, 1975-6 (mentions Paul Twitchell)
 * His Grace Lives On – USA: Ruhani Satsang (ISBN 978-0-942735-93-2)
 * The Jap Ji: The Message of Guru Nanak – Delhi: Ruhani Satsang, 1959; Franklin, New Hampshire: Sant Bani; Bowling Green, Virginia: Sawan Kirpal Publications, 1981 (ISBN 978-0-942735-85-7)
 * Life and Death (combined edition of The Wheel of Life and The Mystery of Death) – Franklin, New Hampshire: Sant Bani
 * The Light of Kirpal – Franklin, New Hampshire: Sant Bani (ISBN 978-0-89142-033-0)
 * Man! Know Thyself – Delhi: Ruhani Satsang; Bowling Green, Virginia: Sawan Kirpal Publications, 1983; Irvine, California: Ruhani Satsang Books (ISBN 978-0-942735-06-2)
 * Morning Talks – Delhi: Ruhani Satsang, 1970; Franklin, New Hampshire: Sant Bani; Bowling Green, Virginia: Sawan Kirpal Publications (ISBN 978-0-942735-16-1)
 * Naam or Word – Delhi: Ruhani Satsang, 1960; Franklin, New Hampshire: Sant Bani; Bowling Green, Virginia: Sawan Kirpal Publications, 1981 (ISBN 978-0-942735-94-9)
 * The Night Is a Jungle and Other Discourses – Delhi: Ruhani Satsang; Franklin, New Hampshire: Sant Bani (ISBN 978-0-942735-18-5)
 * Prayer: Its Nature and Technique – Delhi: Ruhani Satsang; Franklin, New Hampshire: Sant Bani; Bowling Green, Virginia: Sawan Kirpal Publications (ISBN 978-0-942735-50-5)
 * Seven Paths to Perfection
 * Spiritual Elixir – Delhi: Ruhani Satsang; Franklin, New Hampshire: Sant Bani, 1967 (ISBN 978-0-942735-02-4)
 * Spirituality: What It Is – Delhi: Ruhani Satsang, 1959, 1964; Franklin, New Hampshire: Sant Bani; Bowling Green, Virginia: Sawan Kirpal Publications
 * The Spiritual Path
 * Surat Shabd Yoga: The Yoga of the Celestial Sound Current – Irvine, California: Ruhani Satsang Books; Blaine, Washington: Ruhani Satsang, 2006 (ISBN 0-942735-95-1)
 * The Teachings of Kirpal Singh (edited by Ruth Seader) – Franklin, New Hampshire: Sant Bani, 1974–6; Bowling Green, Virginia: Sawan Kirpal Publications, 1981 (ISBN 978-0-942735-33-8)
 * The Way of the Saints (edited by Russell Perkins) – Franklin, New Hampshire: Sant Bani, 1976, 1989 (ISBN 978-0-89142-026-2)
 * The Wheel of Life and The Mystery of Death (ISBN 978-0-942735-80-2)

title: Kirpal Singh


text:
Uncle Vanya

Uncle Vanya (Дя́дя Ва́ня) is a play by the Russian playwright Anton Chekhov. It was first published in 1897, and first produced in 1899 by the Moscow Art Theatre, directed by Konstantin Stanislavski.

The play portrays the visit of an elderly professor and his glamorous, much younger second wife, Yelena, to the rural estate that supports their urban lifestyle. Two friends—Vanya, brother of the professor's late first wife, who has long managed the estate, and Astrov, the local doctor—both fall under Yelena's spell while bemoaning the ennui of their provincial existence. Sonya, the professor's daughter by his first wife, who has worked with Vanya to keep the estate going, suffers from her unrequited feelings for Astrov. Matters are brought to a crisis when the professor announces his intention to sell the estate, Vanya and Sonya's home, with a view to investing the proceeds to achieve a higher income for himself and his wife.

Background
Uncle Vanya is unique among Chekhov's major plays because it is essentially an extensive reworking of The Wood Demon, a play he published a decade earlier. By elucidating the specific changes Chekhov made during the revision process—these include reducing the cast from almost two dozen down to nine, changing the climactic suicide of The Wood Demon into the famous failed homicide of Uncle Vanya, and altering the original happy ending into an ambiguous, less final resolution—critics such as Donald Rayfield, Richard Gilman, and Eric Bentley have sought to chart the development of Chekhov's dramaturgical method through the 1890s.

Rayfield cites recent scholarship suggesting Chekhov revised The Wood Demon during his trip to the island of Sakhalin, a prison colony in Eastern Russia, in 1891.

Characters and cast

 * Aleksandr Vladimirovich Serebryakov (Алекса́ндр Влади́мирович Серебряко́в): a retired university professor, who has lived for years in the city on the earnings of his late first wife's rural estate, managed for him by Vanya and Sonya.
 * Helena Andreyevna Serebryakova (Yelena) (Еле́на Андре́евна Серебряко́ва): Serebryakov's young and beautiful second wife. She is 27 years old.
 * Sofia Alexandrovna Serebryakova (Sonya) (Со́фья Алекса́ндровна Серебряко́ва): Serebryakov's daughter from his first marriage. She is of a marriageable age, but is considered plain.
 * Maria Vasilyevna Voynitskaya (Мари́я Васи́льевна Войни́цкая): the widow of a privy councillor and mother of Vanya (and of Vanya's late sister, Serebryakov's first wife).
 * Ivan Petrovich Voynitsky ("Uncle Vanya") (Ива́н Петро́вич Войни́цкий): Maria's son and Sonya's uncle, also brother-in-law of Serebryakov, he is the title character of the play. He is 47 years old.
 * Mikhail Lvovich Astrov (Михаи́л Льво́вич А́стров): a middle-aged country doctor. His preoccupation with the destruction of forests is one of the earlier discussions of ecological problems in world literature.
 * Ilya Ilych Telegin (Илья́ Ильи́ч Теле́гин; nicknamed "Waffles" for his pockmarked skin): an impoverished landowner, who now lives on the estate as a dependent of the family.
 * Marina Timofeevna (Мари́на Тимофе́евна): an old nurse.
 * A Workman

Notable casts
 * In 2023 Andrew Scott starred in a one-man West End adaptation entitled Vanya.
 * Uncle Vanya has been produced on Broadway ten times from 1924 to 2024.

Act I
At Professor Serebryakov's country estate, Astrov and Marina discuss how old Astrov has grown and his boredom with life as a country doctor. Vanya enters and complains of the disruption caused by the visit of Serebryakov and his wife, Yelena. Serebryakov, Yelena, Sonya, and Telegin return from a walk. Out of earshot of Serebryakov, Vanya calls him "a learned old dried mackerel" and belittles his achievements. Vanya's mother, Maria Vasilyevna, who idolizes Serebryakov, objects. Vanya also praises Yelena's beauty, arguing that faithfulness to an old man like Serebryakov is an immoral waste of vitality.

Astrov is forced to depart to attend to a patient, after making a speech on the preservation of the forests, a subject he is passionate about. Vanya declares his love to an exasperated Yelena.

Act II
Several days later. Before going to bed, Serebryakov complains of pain and old age. Astrov arrives but the professor refuses to see him. After Serebryakov falls asleep, Yelena and Vanya talk. She speaks of the discord in the house, and Vanya speaks of dashed hopes. He feels that he has misspent his youth and he associates his unrequited love for Yelena with the disappointment of his life. Yelena refuses to listen. Vanya believed in Serebryakov's greatness and was happy to support Serebryakov's work; he has become disillusioned with the professor and his life feels empty. Astrov returns and the two talk. Sonya chides Vanya for his drinking, and points out that only work is truly fulfilling.

A storm starts and Astrov talks to Sonya about the house's suffocating atmosphere; he says Serebryakov is difficult, Vanya is a hypochondriac, and Yelena is charming but idle. Sonya begs Astrov to stop drinking, telling him it is unworthy of him. It becomes clear that Sonya is in love with him and that he is unaware of her feelings.

Astrov leaves; Yelena enters and makes peace with Sonya, after mutual antagonism. Yelena reassures Sonya that she had strong feelings for Serebryakov when she married him, though that has proved illusory. Yelena confesses her unhappiness, and Sonya eulogises Astrov. In a happy mood, Sonya goes to ask the professor if Yelena may play the piano. Sonya returns with his negative answer.

Act III
Vanya, Sonya, and Yelena have been called together by Serebryakov. Vanya urges Yelena, once again, to break free. Sonya complains to Yelena that she has loved Astrov for years but he doesn't notice her. Yelena volunteers to question Astrov and find out if he is in love with Sonya. Sonya is pleased, but wonders whether uncertainty is better than knowledge.

When Yelena asks Astrov about his feelings for Sonya, he says he has none, thinking that Yelena has brought up the subject of love to encourage him to confess his own feelings for her. Astrov kisses Yelena, and Vanya sees them. Upset, Yelena begs Vanya to use his influence to allow her and the professor to leave immediately. Yelena tells Sonya that Astrov doesn't love her.

Serebryakov proposes to solve the family's financial problems by selling the estate and investing the proceeds, which will bring in a significantly higher income (and, he hopes, leave enough over to buy a villa for himself and Yelena in Finland). Angrily, Vanya asks where he, Sonya, and his mother would live, protests that the estate rightly belongs to Sonya, and that Serebryakov has never appreciated his self-sacrifice in managing the property. Vanya begins to rage against the professor, blaming him for his own failures, wildly claiming that, without Serebryakov to hold him back, he could have been a second Schopenhauer or Dostoevsky. He cries out to his mother, but Maria insists that Vanya listen to the professor. Serebryakov insults Vanya, who storms out. Yelena begs to be taken away, and Sonya pleads with her father on Vanya's behalf. Serebryakov exits to confront Vanya further. A shot is heard from offstage and Serebryakov returns, chased by Vanya, wielding a pistol. He fires again at the professor, but misses. He throws the gun down in self-disgust.

Act IV
A few hours later, Marina and Telegin discuss the planned departure of Serebryakov and Yelena. Vanya and Astrov enter, Astrov saying that in this district, only he and Vanya were "decent, cultured men" and that years of "narrow-minded life" have made them vulgar. Vanya has stolen a vial of Astrov's morphine, presumably to commit suicide; Sonya and Astrov beg him to return it, which he eventually does.

Yelena and Serebryakov bid farewell. When Yelena says goodbye to Astrov, she embraces him, and takes one of his pencils as a souvenir. Serebryakov and Vanya make their peace, agreeing all will be as it was before. Once the outsiders have departed, Sonya and Vanya settle accounts, Maria reads a pamphlet, and Marina knits. Vanya complains of the heaviness of his heart, and Sonya, in response, speaks of living, working, and the rewards of the afterlife: "And our life will grow peaceful, tender, sweet as a caress…. You've had no joy in your life; but wait, Uncle Vanya, wait…. We shall rest."

Productions
Although the play had previous small runs in provincial theatres in 1898, its metropolitan première took place on 7 November 1899 at the Moscow Art Theatre. Constantin Stanislavski played the role of Astrov while Chekhov's future wife Olga Knipper played Yelena. The initial reviews were favorable but pointed to defects in both the play and the performances. As the staging and the acting improved over successive performances, and as "the public understood better its inner meaning and nuances of feeling", the reviews improved. Uncle Vanya became a permanent fixture in the Moscow Art Theatre.

The play was adapted as the stage-play Dear Uncle by the British playwright Alan Ayckbourn, who reset it in the 1930s Lake District. This adaptation premiered from July to September 2011 at the Stephen Joseph Theatre.

In January 2014 24/6: A Jewish Theater Company performed TuBishVanya, a modern adaptation that incorporated Jewish and environmental themes.

In 2023, an off-off-Broadway production of Uncle Vanya performed in an unmarked Manhattan loft for an audience of 40. Directed by Jack Serio and using a translation by Paul Schmidt, the cast featured Will Brill as Astrov, Julia Chan as Yelena, David Cromer as Vanya, Will Dagger as Telegin, Marin Ireland as Sonya, Bill Irwin as Serebryakov (replaced by Thomas Jay Ryan), Virginia Wing as Marina, Ann McDonough as Maria, and Nathan Malin as Yefim.

Among the actors who have played Uncle Vanya on Broadway are Ralph Richardson, Nicol Williamson, Tom Courtenay, and Derek Jacobi. Since April 2024, a Broadway production of Uncle Vanya has been staged in the Lincoln Center Theatre by director Lila Neugebauer. The cast includes Steve Carell as Uncle Vanya, Allison Pill as Sonya, William Jackson Harper as Astrov, Alfred Molina as Alexander Serabryakov, Anika Noni Rose as Yelena, Jonathan Hadary as Telegin/"Waffles," Jayne Houdyshell as Mama Voinitski, and Mia Katigbak as Marina.

Other actors who have appeared in notable stage productions of Uncle Vanya include Michael Redgrave, Paul Scofield, Peter O'Toole, Albert Finney, Franchot Tone, Cate Blanchett, Peter Dinklage, Jacki Weaver, Antony Sher, Ian McKellen, Richard Armitage, Simon Russell Beale, William Hurt, George C. Scott, Donald Sinden, Michael Gambon, Trevor Eve, and Laurence Olivier.

Parodies
"Are you Uncle Vanya?" "I am." [Gunshot sounds] "Ouch!"
 * The Fifth Elephant, a 1999 novel by Terry Pratchett, includes a pastiche of Chekhov plays in which "the gloomy and purposeless trousers of Uncle Vanya" are loaned to Captain Vimes.
 * Life Sucks: Or the Present Ridiculous, a 2015 stage adaptation by Aaron Posner, premiered at Theater J in Washington, DC.
 * The Reduced Shakespeare Company performed a shortened version of the play on their BBC radio show in 2010 that contained only three lines:

 * Uncle Vanya and Zombies, a 2012 post-apocalyptic stage adaptation by Markus Wessendorf, premiered at Kennedy Theatre in Honolulu.

Other adaptations
Over the years, Uncle Vanya has been adapted for film several times.
 * Uncle Vanya, a 1957 adaptation of a concurrent Off-Broadway production that starred Franchot Tone, who co-produced and co-directed the film
 * Uncle Vanya, a version of the star-studded 1962–63 Chichester Festival stage production, directed for the stage by Laurence Olivier, who played Astrov, and also starring Michael Redgrave as Vanya, Max Adrian as Professor Serebryakov, Rosemary Harris as Yelena, and Olivier's wife Joan Plowright as Sonya. Harold Hobson of The Sunday Times described the Chichester production as "the admitted master achievement in British twentieth-century theatre" while The New Yorker called it "probably the best 'Vanya' in English we shall ever see".
 * Uncle Vanya, a 1970 Russian film version, adapted and directed by Andrei Mikhalkov-Konchalovsky.
 * Uncle Vanya, a 1991 episode of the BBC Performance anthology for TV, starring Ian Holm and David Warner
 * Vanya on 42nd Street, a 1994 American film version, adapted by David Mamet and directed by Louis Malle. It stars Wallace Shawn and Julianne Moore. Originally a little-known studio production, it was adapted for the screen, where it garnered wider acclaim.
 * Country Life, a 1994 Australian adaptation, set in the Outback, starring Sam Neill as the equivalent of Astrov
 * August, a 1996 English film adaptation, set in Wales, directed by and starring Anthony Hopkins in the Vanya role. Hopkins played Astrov in a BBC Play of the Month production in 1970.
 * Sonya's Story, an opera adapted by director Sally Burgess, composer Neal Thornton and designer Charles Phu, portraying events in the play Uncle Vanya from the character Sonya's perspective, premiered in 2010.
 * Uncle Vanya, a 2012 adaptation by Annie Baker premiered at Soho Repertory Theatre on June 7. It was directed by Sam Gold, starred Reed Birney as Vanya, and closed on July 22. Working closely with a Russian translator, Baker created her own original and contemporary adaptation of the play.
 * Chekhov: Fast & Furious, a multimedia theatric performance project by the Franco-Austrian performance collective Superamas which translates the themes of the “old” theatre into our time, premiered in 2018 at the Vienna Festival in Austria.
 * Uncle Vanya, a recording of the interrupted 2020 run at London's Harold Pinter Theatre, adapted by Conor McPherson, starring Aimee Lou Wood, Rosalind Eleazar, Roger Allam, Toby Jones, and Richard Armitage. Due to the government's COVID-19 restrictions, it was decided to bring the cast back under guidelines and film the play for release in cinemas and later on the BBC.
 * Drive My Car, a 2021 film by Ryusuke Hamaguchi, includes a production of Uncle Vanya, with the characters echoing the emotional turmoil of Chekhov's characters as they reveal their trauma and deeply complicated feelings. It is based on a short story collection by Haruki Murakami.
 * Vanya, a one-man adaptation for the stage starring Andrew Scott and directed by Sam Yates, had its West End debut in September 2023. It was co-created by Simon Stephens, Sam Yates, Rosanna Vize and Scott himself. The production won best revival at the 2024 Laurence Olivier Awards and Scott was nominated for his performance. A filmed recording was released in cinemas through National Theatre Live in February 2024.
 * Uncle Vanya, a 2024 adaptation by Heidi Schreck premiered at Broadway's Vivian Beaumont Theater on April 2. It was directed by Lila Neugebauer, starred Steve Carell as Vanya, and closed on June 16.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Uncle Vanya


text:
Talk:Bardock

Toriyama named him "Burdock" in the manga
FUNimation and earlier dubbs named him "Bardock". I thought that Wikipedia is supposed to go by written text names. In this case, the Viz manga names source. This applied for the Krillin article to be Kuririn, Tien Shinhan article to be titled Tenshinhan, etc. Even in the translated English manga he is called "Burdock". Shouldn't we go by this? Power level (Dragon Ball) 15:46, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

We should use the most correct information available - for all Wikipedia articles. For anime and manga articles specifically, the guidelines are to use hepburn romanizations of the original names, unless another romanization (that is also 'correct') is more frequently used (for example, Goku rather than Gokū), or if the name is derived from an English word (for example, Trunks rather than Torankusu).

I'm trying to figure this out right now. I've got a Super Barcode Wars card that says "Barduck" http://www.dbzcollection.fr/barcode/cartes/barcode3/images/96_jpg.jpg -- DesireCampbell 16:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll continue the discussion above... -- DesireCampbell 16:32, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I had this same discussion on the Majin Buu article. I suggested changing the article to Djinn Boo (because I thought that we were going by the English manga names) and it worked, but it was reverted shortly after. I really don't know what determines the name of a Dragon Ball article, but what we should be doing is using the English manga names for all DB articles, not a manga name on one page (Son Goku, for example) and an anime name on another (like Bardock). We need to come up with some sort of agreement on how the DB articles are named (if there isn't one already). // Sasuke  -kun  27  20:24, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

 * It's been discussed, were going to have to use the Viz Manga names, since the manga has the highest source of canon in fiction, hence, Bardock should definitely be changed to Burdock (Dragon Ball). // Power   level  Stacy's Mom  21:21, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it should be discussed again. This blind adherence to the Viz translation is flawed. There are clear guidelines for Wikipedia already, we should use those.

 MOS:Japan related articles

The name should be a hepburn romanization of the original name, unless another correct romanization is more well known (ie: Gouk rather than Gokū), or if the word is derived from an English word (ie: Trunks rather than Torankusu).

So, in this case, Burdock may be the correct article name, but not because it's used by Viz. Viz has many problems with its Dragon Ball release, including erroneous names. If all the DB articles are using the Viz translations instead of Wiki guidelines, they should all be re-checked to make sure the article names are correct.

-- DesireCampbell 23:54, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Ever heard of the vegetable, burdock? That is an English word, and Toriyama has said it's derived from that same vegetable (just like all of the other Saiyans, such as Kakarrot (carrot), Vegeta (the word "vegetable), Nappa (the cabbage), Raditz (radittsu in Japanese, derived from radisshu, or radish), Tullece (lettuce), Paragas (asparagas), and Broli (broccoli).

Uh huh... and the discussion here is whether the name is simply 'Burdock' or if it's slightly different, or "derived", from the word 'burdock'. Some Saiyan names are exactly like the word (Nappa) while others are slight variations on the word (Broli). From what we've learned, it's probably 'Burdock' and not 'Bardock' or 'Barduck'. -- DesireCampbell 22:54, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, Landmark says that the vegetable is pronounced baadakku, like Burdock's name, so it should just be spelled Burdock. Chibi Gohan 23:34, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Could we get a quick scan of that? -- DesireCampbell 00:33, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't own a scanner. Perhaps this could be discussed on DaizenshuuEX (since people like Steve and Julian are there). Chibi Gohan 19:28, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Another section about the name? Joy!
So, here's what I've got:
 * "Burdock" -- which would be pronounced bur dock
 * バードック -- baa do ku
 * バーダック -- baa dah ku
 * (Bur)ダ(ck) -- bur dah k
 * Burdock
 * Burdock

Yeah, so, "yay, whole lotta useless work".

So 'burdock' would normally be バードック in katakana, and Toriyama (apparently) decided to change one of the characters (so it's a reference to burdock not just 'burdock'). But the kana he used instead of ド was ダ, which (with a 'k' sound added on) sound exactly like 'dock'. The romanized name should reflect the original spelling and show the change from that word - but it already does (Just like Vegeta and Videl, but that's another explanation). Unless someone wants to romanize it as 'Burdahk' or 'Burdawk', I suggest 'Burdock'.

 * That said, 'Bardock' is a correct romanization, but doesn't hold as true to the original word.

So, who's up for a Move Request to Burdock (Dragon Ball)? -- DesireCampbell 16:05, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Where's your source that says burdock is pronounced バードック (baadokku) as opposed to バーダック (baadakku)? Chibi Gohan 19:27, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, not much of a source really. I don't think 'a guy' is really much of a source. Oliver Hague, over on the DaizEX forum, and I have been debating it for a while. バードック is (apparently) a much more common 'spelling' for 'burdock' than バーダック. A quick google shows DBZ or other anime sites for バーダック and 'herb' stores and cooking stores for バードック. バーダック could be a transliteration for 'burdock' but it's just not the most common one, I guess. --DesireCampbell 20:02, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I support the move to Burdock (Dragon Ball). Power level (Dragon Ball) 15:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I also think it should be moved to Burdock (Dragon Ball). And note that we have not only the VIZ translation backing the move, but also Steve Simmons, who is a hell of a lot more accurate than whoever writes the dub scripts. Chibi Gohan 19:12, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, does anyone know how to remove those alternate names? When I try to delete them, it leaves a blank space in the article where the alternate names should go. And nobody says Budock or Badock anyway, not to mention the fact that they're incorrect. Chibi Gohan 19:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the move to Burdock (Dragon Ball), I just don't want to do it right now. *meh* If someone else does the work, I'll vote it, but I'm not too worried about it. The same goes for the info box. The whole thing needs to be redone, for all the DB pages. The alternate names thing is useless and confusing (there should be a whole section detailing the name). Other anime character info boxes are better, I'm looking at possible reworks. The same goes for the template at the bottom. There's one for characters, one for the anime, I think there's a third too. All the more reason to get the Project up and running. --DesireCampbell 20:08, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

So can I move the page from Bardock to Burdock (Dragon Ball)?
I might just move the page since Power level (Dragon Ball) (me), DesireCampbell, and Chibi Gohan want to have it move to Burdock (Dragon Ball). Any objections before I attempt to move it? Power level (Dragon Ball) 15:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I doubt there'd be any objection. But I think that after moving the page the new Talk page should have a note about why the name was changed. Just in case the issue us brought up again. --DesireCampbell 16:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Cool. Can you perform the move then? I don't wanna start a fuss or rivalry or anything here. Power level (Dragon Ball) 17:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Will do. -- Oops. Can't. The page already exist - so I can't move it apparently. --DesireCampbell 17:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I just tried too several times, and it won't work? Would you contact an administrator to perform the move then? I've gotta get something to eat... Power level (Dragon Ball) 18:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and did it. If anybody comes along and objects, we can talk about it, but it seems fine for now. I also fixed the resulting double redirects and the link at Burdock (disambiguation). Someone might want to edit the article to reflect the new title. -GTBacchus(talk) 21:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I'll edit the page now. --DesireC ampbell 22:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I know I'm coming into this late, but there was no Requested Move posted, so I didn't notice. I really disagree with this title. Almost no one in the United States knows this character by this name. A search on Google for "Burdock Dragonball" shows only 1440 hits, compared to almost 200K hits for the same with "Bardock". The only reference to "Burdock" in the US is in one line of one page of the VIZ manga, but "Burdock" is the spelling and name preferred in the Anime series (as dubbed/edited by FUNimation) and the TV movie (also by FUNimation). According to WP:NAME, we should Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things.. "Burdock" fails this twice: first by requiring the disambiguation from Burdock (the bush) and second by not being the name most commonly associated with the character. I agree that "Burdock" might be a more "true" transliteration, but Wikipedia policy is often to choose the more well-known name for the title, even against a more "correct" one. JRP 23:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Good points all around. And I agree that "Bardock" is probably more well known than "Burdock" but I'm torn as to whether that's enough to warrant it's use or not. WP:MOS-JP says we should use the English spelling for transliterations from katakana, but WP:anime says we should use official romanizations if possible. Choosing one distribution company's translation over another is a wrought with difficulty (and I don't want to get into that right now). I'm just unsure what is more important: recognizability, or correct information. "Bardock" is a decent transliteration of the katakana, but it's obviously not what it's supposed to be. And "Burdock" isn't so far off that noone would figure out who's being referred to.

 * Choosing a name based on official translations has it's faults.
 * Choosing a name based on straight transliteration has it's faults
 * Choosing a name based on what's popular has it's faults
 * If whatever way we translate the name is imperfect and can draw criticism, then I think we should at least try and go for the most correct name. --DesireCampbell 00:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The official Wikipedia policy is Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.. Official policy doesn't specify correctness, though that is a good goal and a good argument could be made for it-- but it's not policy. WP:MOS-JP is considered a guideline, but I'm not sure I follow your reading of it. I think it's more ambiguous than you suggest, that section just reiterates standard rules for how to write the Romanization, which we follow properly in the infobox. WP:Anime is not officially either a guideline or a policy, so it's recommendations should only apply in the absence of other direction. I'm not suggesting this just because it's "policy"-- I'm not that bureacratic, but it seems overall like the better choice. JRP 01:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Name section and other fixes
First, I'd like to ask anyone who knows how to archive everything above. The page is cluttered and needs to be cleaned. I'd do it, I just don't know how.

Secondly, I'm sure everyone means well, but the opening paragraphs where it says that "Burdock's name is a pun on 'burdock', which is an herb", the second "burdock" should stay lowercase, it's not a proper noun.

Now on to the Name section. Perhaps I've just not fleshed it out enough to make it understand able -but I'm worried that a long drawn out explanation would clutter the article. I'll expand on the explanation and ask y'all to point out where it should be cut down.

Name
Burdock's name is, like all other Saiyans, a pun on a plant. In this case, the herb burdock. In Japanese foreign words are transliterated into a special alphabet called "katakana". These characters are very much like English letters in that they are sounds without meanings (as opposed to Kanji which are whole words in a single character). The word "burdock" transliterated into katakana is バードック (bādokku pronounced like "baa doe coo") but the character's name is written as バーダック (bādakku pronounced like "baa dah coo"), changing the do character to da. This character change actually makes the kana sound more like "Burdock" to English speakers than it did before, and that makes it difficult to accurately romanize the word to show the pun. Normally one would simply spell out the word exactly as the kana sounds, in this case badakku. But knowing the word is based on an English word it is common to use that spelling if at all possible. The problem arises in the character change from ド (do) to ダ (da). To show the change the romanization should mirror the change as well. The ダ (da) character replaced the "do" part of "burdock", so it would seem obvious to change the word to "burdack" - but such a change would alter the pronunciation of the change. The new spelling "burdack" doesn't have the same syllable sound a ダ (da). In fact, the only English spelling that would keep the same sound would be "burdawk" or "burdock".

So the word could conceivably be romanized as "Burdock", "Barduck", "Badack" or any combination of those syllables.

It's just that it seems a bit redundant, but taking things out makes it more ambiguous. I think most of the explanation about katakana can be taken out (a link to katakana should suffice) but I'm not sure how indepth the explanation the romanization should go. --DesireCampbell 21:51, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus. Duja ► 10:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Burdock (Dragon Ball) → Bardock — Article recently renamed (outside of WP:RM), but new name does not follow WP:NAME. According to that policy, we should Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things. "Burdock" as a name is only used in the VIZ manga translation, once, for a character that appears in two panels. There are only 1440 Google hits on "Burdock Dragonball". "Bardock", the original name of this article, is the name used consistently in the anime (as translated by FUNimation), is used in the title of the TV movie (also by FUNimation), and used in nearly every US tie-in product. "Bardock Dragoball" receives 200,000 Google hits. I believe this name was chosen due to a mis-reading of WP:MOS-JP, which anyway is only a guideline while WP:NAME is official policy. This change would also allow us to use just "Bardock" as the article name, without the parenthetical disambiguation which makes linking more cumbersome. JRP 06:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Reasons for using Bardock:
 * Bardock is the most common variation of the name. (1400 Google hits for Burdock vs 200,000) (See also Search engine test)
 * Bardock is in the name of a title of a movie in the US: Bardock: Father of Goku. Using "Burdock" as the character name would make that article quite odd.
 * "Bardock" requires no disambiguation on Wikipedia, while "Burdock" does. This makes linking more difficult and less natural.
 * "Bardock" is the name used in both the "cut" and "uncut" FUNimation-translated anime series, including in the title of the movie. In contrast, Burdock is used only once in the VIZ-translated manga.
 * In the US, the "Bardock" name precedes Burdock by several years.
 * Both names are reasonable romanizations of the Japanese. While "Burdock" may express the pun better, that's a subjective test. We have more objective criteria, though WP:NAME, to use.
 * Akira Toriyama chose "Barduck" for the name, not either of these two options, so neither is more "correct" as far as the creator of the work is concerned. Most Toriyama-English names (such as Gokuh, etc.) aren't used in the US, but it at least doesn't provide any weight against this option, either.
 * Point of clarification: Toriyama never wrote the name out in English. The name was only ever written as バーダック. The only other reference we have is a short interview where he said the pun was on gobô (the Japanese word for burdock). "Barduck" is used on Japanese "Super Barcode Wars" cards. --DesireCampbell 06:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

 * WP:NAME is the official policy on naming. Simply put, "Burdock" fails test 1.6: Use common names of persons and things. Regardless of your views on the above, we need to follow this policy. —the preceding comment is by Gene Nygaard (talk • contribs) Gene Nygaard: Please sign your posts!.

Survey

 * ''Add  * Support   or   * Oppose   on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~.

 * Strongly Oppose: This has already been decided since no one argued about it anymore. WP:MANGA goes strictly by romanizations (likely Hepburn), name puns, and manga texts and no more; not anime filler specials, not toys/collectibles, not ads or American merchandise, and most definitely NOT any fan related sites. Power level (Dragon Ball) 15:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Actually, I think it's very clear that Wikipedia uses the common names for things. And "fan related" sites hardly relates to the official licensees of the property, in this case FUNimation. Please read WP:NAME, or another official policy, and show me the passage that says "strictly by Hepburn romanizations". JRP 16:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Maybe you don't remember, but do you know why Cui (Dragon Ball) was moved to Kiwi (Dragon Ball)? That moved was made by KojiDude because of User:Zarbon's persistant obsession with the character. KojiDude had a very good point -->[]... Wikipedia uses ENGLISH MANGA NAMES! An example would be Tienshinhan--->Tenshinhan, Krillin--->Kuririn, Frieza--->Freeza, etc. Do you get the point? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Power level (Dragon Ball) (talk • contribs)
 * Who do you think started that policy? Go see who moved Muten-Roshi and Kuririn back in 2004. Look at the debates we had back then. But, in the last two years, I've done a lot more editing on Wikipedia, outside of just the Dragon Ball articles and outside of fandom. And, you know, I've really come to appreciate the simpler policies. Though I appreciate the irony that I'm now effectively arguing with precedent that I helped to start. :) JRP 17:47, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * We use Shinigami (Bleach) rather than VIZ's "Soul Reaper" and zanpakutō rather than "Soul Slayer". I'm sure that there are many more examples. Dekimasu 05:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey guys, let's be civil about this eh? And can we hold discussion in that 'discussion' section right below us? Rules be damned. We should try and collaborate here to figure out what would be the best thing to name the page and the character. Which one is better? Should we use one for the article title and another for the body of the page? I don't know, let's talk about it. --DesireCampbell 18:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Support use common English name when one exists. Also, the fact that there has been a past debate doe not mean that this debate can't take place. Consensus can change. Jay32183 00:11, 11 December 2006 (UTC) Abstain Since the two official translations of the anime (Funimation dub and Funimation subtitles) use different spellings I cannot make a claim about what "common English" is. Jay32183 04:27, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Support Bardock will be the most recognized name per Jay's arguments. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 21:41, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Support, no comment. -- RattleMan 21:46, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose - see below - DesireCampbell 22:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Support, it is admitted that Bardock far more commonly used. That's all that really matters. Gene Nygaard 05:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose. MOS-JP notes, "For transliterations from katakana, use the English spelling if available (i.e., Thunderbird (サンダーバード Sandābādo) instead of Sandābādo)". "Bardock" may be common, but it is not printworthy. Redirects are cheap and "Bardock" can redirect here. Dekimasu 05:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment That only applies if there's no English loan word to use in its place. Don't selectively quote guidelines to try and make your point seem valid. WP:NAME dicates that Bardock be used. Being a policy, it supercedes every other guideline that you cite. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 06:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I wasn't selectively quoting guidelines to make a point... I was reading the guidelines to select a point. I have no personal investment in this page or interest in Dragon Ball. There is no English "loan word" to use in its place. "Bardock" is not an English word, and "Sandābādo" is not an English word. This name, however, is an English word. And I'll quote again, from WP:NAME: "When there is no long-established history of usage of the term, more consideration should be given to the correctness of translation, rather than frequency of usage." Dekimasu 03:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, it doesn't. WP:NAME is great, but it's meant only as a general guideline, and other guidelines should be used when they are geared more towards a specific topic. As such, we should focus on established practices (if any at all). These would be WP:MOS-JA and WP:Anime. Both say we should use standard English spelling for loan words, and official romanji spellings for names. The character's name is a pun on a loan word, and I believe that the most common spelling for that plant is burdock, not "bardock". "Burdock" is also Funimation's offical romanization of the name, as seen on the Japanese subtitles on all current DVD releases. Beyond that, WP:Ignore all rules says any guideline or policy can, an should, be ignored if such a rule prevents the article from becoming "better". --DesireCampbell 06:19, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Like in other moves, you simply don't know what you're talking about. What part of "This page is an official policy on the English Wikipedia." escapes your notice? Also, don't try that ignore all rules defense, because titling an article a single letter different does not in any way hamper improving the article. You can easily mention a single pun on an original name with a differently named article. Finally, Funimation wouldn't title a movie "Bardock" then use Burdock as his name. Use some common sense. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 06:25, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * "What part of "This page is an official policy on the English Wikipedia." escapes your notice?"
 * Obviously not this part: "It is important to note that these are conventions, not rules carved in stone." Oh, and "Japanese See: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)".
 * "Also, don't try that ignore all rules defense, because titling an article a single letter different does not in any way hamper improving the article."
 * That's your opinion. The word choice "improv[e]" is intentionally ambiguous. It's meant to promote debate over what is an "improvement". You think that naming the page "Bardock" would be an improvement, I think "Burdock" would be an improvement. We should debate this.
 * "Finally, Funimation wouldn't title a movie "Bardock" then use Burdock as his name. Use some common sense."
 * Firstly, Funimation isn't really one for making a lot of sense, but they are good for one thing (if nothing else): brilliant Japanese subtitles. All dual language releases include a English subtitle track translated from the original script by Steven J. Simmons. These translations serve as Funimation's official romanji spellings for the series. The dub uses certain names, the subtitle track uses others. Is it that you doubt the subtitle track says "Burdock"?
 * If you would like to debate the issue (which I would prefer) there's a "discussion" section just below this. --DesireCampbell 07:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Strongly Oppose As per reasons stated by Desire Campbell. Daishokaioshin 07:45, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Even if everyone on Wikipedia wanted the name "Bardock", those that agree with DesireCampbell would win this survey because of those two movie amazing movie scans, as well as the manga panel on Burdock's article page. So, there you have it. Anyone else wanna argue about the name change? Power level (Dragon Ball) 15:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I assume this is the scan from the manga that has the name spelled out, but your link is broken. If it were that easy though, I'd point out that a DVD cover is much more obvious, common, and recognizable than anything you could point out, in one panel, of one translation, of the manga. (And what's up with your sig, is this an odd attempt at making Stacy's Mom the most linked to page on Wikipedia? Careful, that almost looks like vandalism to me.) JRP 04:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Fixed broken manga link. By the way, that DVD cover title is spelled wrong (somewhat) if you compare it to DesireCampbell's "Burdock" proof --> Forget about the Stacy's Mom link, that was just, wierd... Power level (Dragon Ball) 16:26, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * To clear up the apparent confusion; "Bardock" is the name given to the character in the English dub - "Burdock" is the name use in the Japanese translated subtitles which, according to WP:Anime we should be using.--DesireCampbell 01:01, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Strong oppose - if you want to make the disambig page be the main page, I would perhaps consider it, but moving a fancrufty Dragon Ball character over a scientific plant is a very bad idea. Part Deux 19:16, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The move request is about moving this to Bardock, an alternate English spelling of the character's name with no other uses. Burdock will not be overwritten. Jay32183 19:49, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

 * ''Add any additional comments:

To clear up a bit of confusion: The WP:MOS-JP and WP:Anime guidelines state we should use official romanizations if they aren't terrible. "Bardock" is a perfectly fine romanization for バーダック - it's just not the most correct one. And any guideline or policy can (and should) be ignored if such rules would happen the article from becoming "better". In my opinion, "better" means more accurate. And (factually, not my opinion,) "Burdock" is more accurate. I cannot, in good conscience, recommend using an incorrect name used only by a third-party distributor. --DesireCampbell 06:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC) '-edit-' That said, I can understand the arguments presented above, and agree that they are all valid arguments, but I still feel that the most important aspect should be accuracy of information. --DesireCampbell 06:55, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I know what you mean, I was the one that argued for "Kuririn" back in 2004 and have since had a change of heart after being on Wikipedia for a while. But, let's look at the guidelines you cited. In the "Article Name" section of WP:Anime, the recommendation is Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly recognized by readers than the English form. See: WP:NAME. That's all I can find in there about naming and that says nothing about official romazations there. (And anyway, "Bardock" is also an official romazation, not a bastardization like "Hercule". Let's not touch that argument.) In WP:MOS-JP, there's a section on "Romanisation", but it only stipulates the romanization scheme to use when writing Japanese words. BUT, it also recommends that you follow Naming conventions (use English) which covers this case nicely: If a native spelling uses different letters than the most common English spelling (eg, Wien vs. Vienna), only use the native spelling as an article title if it is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form.. Again, the recommendation is the "common" name and not the "correct" one. Can you point out the specific guidelines that you are citing? JRP 06:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

 * From WP:Anime:
 * "Characters should be called what the series officially states their romaji names as."
 * That is, what the distribution company (or if possible the original production company) officially states the original name to be. That would mean "Kaio" instead of "King Kai". The point here is to use official romanizations (even if they are little known, or possibly incorrect).

 * "If that does not exist, use what they are named in the most recent or popular English translation, if it exists, isn't egregiously bad, and is the generally-used name (a google test is appropriate here)."
 * If there is no official romanization, then use the distribution company's name, if it isn't terrible (that is, it can be bad, but not completely off) and is used by English speaking fans.

 * "Otherwise, use a literal transliteration."
 * If there's no official romanization from the production company and there's no English distribution company (or if they decide not to name the character, maybe?) then we should use a standard Hepburn romanization.

 * The point here is to use English first but keeping romanizations of the original names above dub names. If there are no romanji names to be had, then we should use official dub names (unless they're absolutely terrible). And if we have no English to base the name on at all, treat it exactly like any other Japanese term on Wikipedia.

 * "Naming conventions (use English) which covers this case nicely: If a native spelling uses different letters than the most common English spelling (eg, Wien vs. Vienna), only use the native spelling as an article title if it is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form."
 * This case is a bit different. It's always written in Japanese (except for that card) so the native spelling isn't in Latin letters. If anything, the "native spelling" would be Bādakku, and "Burdock" would be vastly more common.

 * And, again, I'm not trying to use guidelines to back up one position or the other. There are plenty of reasons to use "Bardock" and there are plenty of reasons to use "Burdock" - I just think that the most compelling of which is "Burdock" is the most correct romanization.
 * --DesireCampbell 09:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

So, why should we choose one name over the other? We should choose a correct, common, official, English name. But there are some problems with that:
 * The correct name is "Burdock". I can show you step-by-step why that's the correct name. But, that name is perhaps less common than others.
 * The most common name is probably "Bardock". The problem then is that it's not the most correct name
 * The 'official name' idea is best rule to go by usually - but in this case there are so many different English versions that it would be unfair to choose one over the other. Not counting the out-of-print adaptations, there are at least five different English versions. There's the Funimation uncut dub, the Blue Water dub, that other UK dub (where Piccolo is "Big Green"), a Mailasian English dub, and the Viz translation. But even then, we can find more rather recent English versions too: Viz has had two or three other versions of Dragon Ball released (with varying degrees of censorship), Funimation's got an official Japanese-translated subtitle track, the original censored Ocean dub, the old Pioneer movie releases, and then there's the video games... and I'm sure I'm forgetting some. Beyond that, there's problems with all the adaptations: The Funi dubs are rather inconsistent with script accuracy and names (both of characters and techniques), and have had censorship issues in the past (though that's not much of a problem now). Viz has had multiple releases of the manga, and has made rather odd translation choices, as well as using completely wrong names, and visual censorship. Though, the Japanese-translated subtitles on the Funi dual-audio releases are very consistent (as they should be, all being done by the same translator).
 * "Burdock" again would be the choice for using 'English names', I think, as it actually is an English word.

So, I really don't know which name should be used. There's problems all around. Any thoughts? --DesireCampbell 19:06, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, since we are mostly going by English manga names (Tenshinhan, Kuririn, Freeza, Lunch, Kiwi, etc.) I don't see why the article has to be titled Bardock. Remember that we're going by the names that the creator himself, Akira Toriyama, gave to these characters. So even if Toriyama didn't create Burdock directly (but did modify his appearance a bit and stretched his name meaning) he still named him Burdock in the manga, and VIZ verifies this. Now I don't know katakana or hiragana and whatnot like you DesireCampbell, but now I really do understand one thing; and that is that Dragon Ball is all comprised of name puns. That is what I understand about this. About the manga names for Vegerot, Madjinn Boo, etc., that's a whole 'nother story which we should take care of later. --  Power level  (Dragon Ball)  03:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Be careful what you wish for. If you really want to follow the manga names, then you need to use "Hercule" for Mr. Satan. Or, at the very least, "Majin Boo" for Majin Buu. The thing about translating from Japanese is that Toriyama didn't write "Burdock" or anything else. He wrote in a Janguage that doesn't use Roman characters and whose transliteration into Roman characters can be done in many different ways-- either strictly phonetically (Bādakku -- pronounced about baa-dak-coo), as close-as-possible-while-still-sounding-English (Bardock), or scrambled a bit so the original pun is more clear (Burdock). Which is more valid the more-closely-phonetic or the more-closely-meaninged? The answer is that there is no straight-forward answer. JRP 05:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * We shouldn't use the manga's translation just because it's the manga's translation. Viz did a great job translating everything else, it's just the names they seems to be bending over backwards to fuck up. Oh, and I want to make it very clear to Power Level and anyone else: I don't know Japanese. I know of it. I can pick out a few spoken words, and can plod my way through pronouncing some katakana - but I'd never want to give the impression that any of this information is coming directly from me. The whole 'explanation' of the name comes from me pestering people who do know Japanese; "what does this character mean?" "how is it pronounced?" "what would this mean?" etc. Anyway, names in Dragon Ball aren't easy things. Some names seem easily transliterated (like Kuririn) but we see odd spellings in the manga (like "Kullin"), other names (like Jheese) are simply Engrish and it's hard to determine what the English spelling should be.
 * I think the best thing to do is use the Funimation Japanese-track subtitles. They're translated by a highly trained, highly experienced, highly respected individuals (Steve Simmons for Z, GT, the Z movies and Z and GT TV specials; and Clyde Mandelin for DB and its movies) and are official romanizations (as the guidelines say to use). If any official romanization is contested, we can discuss it further (like we're doing here).
 * Specifically, I think that "Burdock" is the best, most correct, name - but understand that switching to the official romanization would probably serve the article better. I don't have the 'Father of Goku' DVD. Can someone here confirm what Daimao translates the character's name as? If it's "Bardock", then that coupled with the wider use of "Bardock" seals the deal (so to speak) for me. But, if its "Burdock" on the DVD then that coupled with my explanation of the name pun hardens my resolve for keeping "Burdock". --DesireCampbell 13:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * As I stated earlier, why keep Bardock if the manga had it spelled Burdock? Why keep Tien Shinhan or Tienshinhan if the manga has it as Tenshinhan, etc.? Since it has long been known that the manga had the highest source of canon in these things, I vote for manga names, regardless of the character's popularity. This also accounted for Cui (Dragon Ball) to be moved to Kiwi (Dragon Ball), Krillin to be move to Kuririn, as well as others that I've already mentioned. If we're really going to go by FUNimation's dubbed names, I highly suggest that we don't because of it's lack of canon when compared to the manga. This also accounts for the Blue Water dubs or YTVs edited English dub for their lack of canon to the manga. See what I mean? Let's just stick to using English (or Engrish as some would call it) manga names only. Okay? -- Power level  (Dragon Ball)  16:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Among English speakers, people are more familiar with the Funimation dub than anything else. The Manga is the only officially licenced merchandise that Funimation does not control. So the English video games and toys all use the same spellings as the Funimation dub. We shouldn't give undue weight to the manga just because it came first. Jay32183 18:40, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Really? Tell me this: are more people familiar with Krillin or Kuririn? Tien Shinhan or Tenshinhan? Or better yet, Cyui (Cui what have you) or Kiwi? Take a good look at those articles and I believe you'll see my point. Better yet, what names does Wikipedia usually give for a characters' name title? Is it from the Manga or Anime? The answer is: MANGA!!! -- Power level  (Dragon Ball)  19:43, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * So your argument is don't move this because the others need to be moved too? That doesn't make any sense at all. If all of the articles need to be moved then they should be moved. There is no guideline that says to use manga names, there is a guideline that says to use common English names. Funimation dub is more common that Viz manga translation. The reason the names are where they are is because of fanboys refusing to accept the Funimation dub, probably due to the over censorship. When the uncut version was made the names were not changed. Something you may wish to consider. Jay32183 20:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Let's clear a few things up.
 * The guidelines state that we should be using official romanizations if at all possible. That would mean to use Kuririn instead of Krillin, Tenshinhan instead of Tien. Because there are many "official romanizations" discussion is sometimes needed to decide on the best corse of action. Usually we would choose the most common name, but such a guieline can be ignored if another name would make the article "better" (which is another point for discussion).
 * This is not the place for a discussion of canon - but suffice it to say that Viz is not canon. They distribute and translate the manga, nothing else. Their censored manga is not to be held as the pinnacle of English Dragon Ball.

I'm still undecided on what the article name should be. There are good reasons to use either name, so I'm placing my complete trust in Daimao's translations.

--DesireCampbell 20:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Wrong. The guidelines state we should be using the name by which best known in English.  That is clearly Bardock.  Gene Nygaard 20:51, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Simply using the most common name is not the best policy. We don't name the Katakana article "Chicken scratch". Further, how is "Bardock" 'clearly' more common? Because it's used in the the English anime dub? 'Burdock' is used in the manga, and the Japanese audio track subtitles. Furthermore, there are other guidelines and standards in place that deal with anime and manga article directly. WP:Anime tells us to use "official romanji" if possible. That would be "Burdock". Of course, I've said as much already.--DesireCampbell 20:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey 'yall. I'm back. The official romanization for baadakku on Funimation's DVDs as translated by Steven J Simmons is "Burdock". I hold here that there are more reasons to use "Burdock" than "Bardock", and I shall vote as such. --DesireCampbell 22:25, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Thank you, Desire Campbell, for making all these people and their FUNimation worshipping turn right around and bite them in the ass. FUNimation calls him "Burdock"! Isn't that great all you people like Jaywhatever that say we should use FUNimation because it's the end-all-be-all of Dragon Ball names and is absolutely perfect in every way??? Yeah, I think it's great too. :D Looks like we're using Burdock, as we were always going to do in the first place.
 * Daishokaioshin 07:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

 * While I appreciate your enthusiasm DaiKaioshin, it's important to remember to not be a dick. I am, admittedly, a rather emotional person and have to remind my self of that every day - so I mean no offense by reminding you, and I think everyone should keep that in mind as well. The important thing to remember is that noone here is anyone's enemy. We're all grown ups, we're all capable of civil discussion. We should assume good faith and try to discuss the topic, not win against the others. --DesireCampbell 08:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

 * You're right and I apologize. I guess I just found it ironic that most of the supporters were citing FUNimation as their source for Bardock being "right" and now they're going to be faced with the fact that the actual translation used by their source is not what they thought it was. I was trying to be humorous by pointing this out, but I can see that my comment was worded in such a way as to appear rude, when it was not my intent. So. Sorry to those I may have offended.

 * Daishokaioshin 08:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

 * My argument was not "use Funimation". It was "use the Funimation dub" because it is more widely known and used. I don't feel to strongly one way or the other, but I want you to understand my argument. I don't feel that Funimation is automatically right, but that's where common English use would lie, and as this is English Wikipedia we should use common English wherever appropriate. Jay32183 19:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Oh, we see your point. It's not that it's not a valid point, it's just not that standard practice for articles about anime and manga. Is Bardock more common than Burdock? Probably. Almost assuredly. But there are guidelines and standards in place for a reason; using official romanji names is a compromise between "hard core" fans and casual fans. One group would look for, and expect, the original names; the reasoning being, this is an article about a Japanese literary character and the original Japanese name would be the most accurate. While more casual fans might only know the "dub name". As a compromise, we tend to use the official romanizations of the character names. This keeps the names accurate (maybe not as accurate as straight romanji, but acceptable to hardcore fans) and recognizable to casual fans (perhaps not as recognizable as a dub name, but they'll be able to find it on their DVDs).
 * And I'll be the first to advocate WP:Ignore all rules if doing so would make the article better. But I think 'Burdock' would serve the world better in this case. --DesireCampbell 20:45, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Actually, it is standard practice. It is very standard practice. Dragon Ball is the odd man out in that regard. Every guideline points to WP:NAME, which insists on common usage as the ultimate point at which an article should be named. Naming a character one letter different only causes confusion for readers and does nothing to improve the article. Bardock, as has been repeatedly shown, is the most widely recognized. It is what FUNimation uses in their offical dubs. Subtitles are not an issue, because this is the English Wikipedia and we go on the assumption people aren't watching subtitled Japanese episodes. Bardock is how his name is dubbed. The movie article uses that name. Policy dictates we use the most common name so long as it isn't horribly inaccurate. One letter is and never will be horribly inaccurate. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 21:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * WP:NAME also says that "When there is no long-established history of usage of the term, more consideration should be given to the correctness of translation, rather than frequency of usage." Of course, it doesn't say how long "long" is. Dekimasu 04:04, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Somehow, I don't think you're going to argue down the use of Hercule throughout an entire translated series as short term. You can argue down the Ocean Group dub, but you can't do the same with FUNimation. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 22:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Previous listing on WP:RM
See this listing closed on 20 November this year which resulted in a move Bardock (Dragon Ball) → Bardock. There appears to have been no discussion. No vote as yet from me. Andrewa 19:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * That move was then, this is now. I recently just realized the name pun and all and saw no reason as to why it shouldn't be Burdock, so I'm sticking with DesireCambell's decisions. -- Power level  (Dragon Ball)  20:30, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Andrewa 02:22, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * What that means is that the subsequent move was improper, and whoever is closing this requested move should consider the article name resulting from the previous move as the base for determining the default name if there is no concensus here. In other words, without consensus for "Burdock (Dragon Ball)", this should end up at Bardock. Gene Nygaard 21:39, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I moved the page from Bardock (Dragon Ball) to Bardock on 20 November based on a listing in "Uncontroversial proposals", because that move just dropped an unnecessary disambiguation, there being no other "Bardock" in Wikipedia. That set up the choice to be between Bardock and Burdock (Dragon Ball).
 * A week and a half later, this article popped up again in "Uncontroversial proposals", and I moved it again, this time to Burdock (Dragon Ball). There were at least 3 editors in agreement, and none yet opposing, so I gave them the benefit of the doubt and moved it, commenting that if someone came along and objected we could talk about it then.  I guess one could call that an improper move, but I hadn't seen that it was not uncontroversial, so I felt like I was following procedure.
 * I have no opinion about this proposed move, and I'm not going to close it. I'd rather some other admin take care of it, since it involves review of an admin action of mine which has been challenged.  I'll be equally happy if my move is reversed, or not, according to the judgement of whoever closes this listing. -GTBacchus(talk) 06:12, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

My comment starting this section was intended as part of the Discussion section, to be archived there when the survey is closed. I've put it back there, please leave it there unless you have some good reason for moving it. Andrewa 02:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Oops. Sorry, didn't know. --DesireCampbell 04:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Quick question
Hell y'all, saw this:
 * In the Dragon Ball series, nearly all Saiyans are named using English-language vegetable puns. Burdock's name (Bādakku) is a pun on burdock, a herb. In English, the pun is either rendered directly (as 'Burdock') or retaining the initial 'bā' sound (as 'Bardock').

And wanted to know if there's a better way to word this. I know what [whoever wrote this part] means by "retaining the initial ba- sound", but it kind of makes it sound like 'Bur' is an inaccurate romanization. To recap: the word "burdock" is written as バードック (ba-dokku) in katakana, but the character's name is written as バーダック (ba-dakku). The ba- sound comes from "bur", so romanizing バー (ba-) to "bur" is actually more correct that "bar" in this case, even though it would probably normally be romanized as "bar".

But I'm stumped as to what would convey the same message more clearly. --DesireCampbell 13:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * You state above, and I confirmed based on my own not-opened-in-three-years Japanese books, that it would be pronounced "baa dah coo". I was trying to get that across without being too verbose about it. I think the trick is that we have an English word, transliterated into Japanese, and then back into English. I wanted to express how it sounds in Japanese, without making a POV judgment about which name is right. (But acking that there are variants.) JRP 17:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I see, but the wording seems to imply that "Burdock" is not as 'correct' as "Bardock". I know that's not what you mean - it's just how it sounds.--DesireCampbell 01:04, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, two things. Burdock as referred to here is not a vegetable herb. The plant is sometimes called an herb (it's a thistle), but this is a pun on the Japanese food (gobo), which is the root of the plant. It should be noted as a vegetable. Second, the loss of the "r" sound within words is common in transliterated Japanese. For example, "center" becomes "centaa", just as in many Commonwealth accents. You could perhaps note it as, "In English, the pun is either rendered directly as 'Burdock', or transliterated as 'Bardock' to reflect the Japanese pronunciation." Dekimasu 10:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

That is perfect. I'll edit that now. --DesireCampbell 13:55, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

So sorry to ask this but: yet ANOTHER question on the decision to move Bardock to Burdock.
Could someone more knowledgeable about Japanese than I answer one quick question for me; are we ABSOLUTELY sure that Bardock/Burdock's name is meant to be the LITERAL English word for the vegetable/herb/plant thingie or a PUN for the word? I ask this because such a scenario was the make or break deal for naming Freeza as such and not "Freezer". In other words; it was agreed that "Furiza" was intended to be a pun on the english word for Freezer and not the actual English word itself. Hence the article being named "Freeza". Just as likewise it was very recently agreed that "Bebi" was intended as the actual English word "Baby", and not a pun on the word, hence the article move to Baby.

I ask this question because I read through most of the discussion and I didn't see this point brought up at all like I did with Bebi. And if it was, then I missed it and you have my apologies for wasting space here.

Thus if the Japanese kana translates as the straight up romanji for the English word Burdock, then fine. But if not, then the name ought to be a little different from the real word (hence Bardock) to reflect that it's a pun on the word and not the actual word itself, as that very distinction was the deciding factor in the above two examples. These are IMO the trickiest kinds of names to translate in Dragon Ball, and ought to be handled with care for such details. Fuad Ramses 11:59, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Here's the thing: the character's name is a pun on the English word "burdock", but there's no good way to show that pun in English. "Burdock" -- which would be pronounced bur dock バードック -- baa do ku   バーダック -- baa dah ku    (Bur)ダ(ck) -- bur dah k    Burdock "Burdock" written in katakana would normally be バードック (I say "normally", as such an act isn't an exact science, but バードック would be by far the most used kana), but the kana used is バーダック, which would be a pun on the word, not the exact word.

That said, the word change is not something that can easily be shown. When an English word is transliterated into katakana, the pronounciation distrts slightly. Usualy this is simply over-enunciation. The change is from 'do' (like "doe, a dear, a female dear") to 'da' (with a long 'a' sound, so more like "dah", not like "dad"). That change makes the pronounciation of the name more like the English pronounciation of "burdock" than the original kana. The original word is pronounced 'burdock', the direct kana is pronounced 'baa-doe-coo', and the pun is 'baa-dah-coo'.

So, to show the punnery we would change the English spelling from 'Burdock' in a way that showed the change in the kana. That change would be from 'do' to 'dah', but that makes the word sound exactly the same to English speakers. The problem is that the pun is only really visible in the kana.

This isn't the only name in DragonBall like this either. Both Videl and Vegeta (I believe, I'll have to check soon) have changes in the kana that can't be shown in English because we already pronounce the word that way.

If we used the name "Bardock", that would indeed mean we use a name that is like the pun word, but slightly different. But we would be using a name that does not accurately reflect the pun used in the original script. Secondly, we would be going against WP:Anime Project guidelines (which are pretty well thought out). Trying to decipher the best representation of the character names is a tough job, and might be considered "original research". That's why I think following the Anime Project's guidelines is a great idea. The Anime Project states we should use whatever the official romanji is. Which would mean using the Funimation Japanese-language subtitles as translated by Steven J Simmonds (DBZ and GT) and Cylde Mandelin (DB). These men are not only professionals but are grealy respected by the fan community.

DragonBall names are tricky. Damn tricky. That's why there should be a section about the name pun (like the one on the Burdock page) on every DB character page. Which is another one of the things the WP:DBZ Project is trying to do. --DesireCampbell 22:34, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I think you may be incorrectly interpreting the katakana transliteration. バーダック is a better direct representation of the English pronunciation than バードック (at least in the case of American English, which is what is taught in schools in Japan). Dekimasu 07:46, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Excellent reading as always Desire. Very informative and fascinating. So essentially what you're saying is that even though the name IS meant to be a pun, due to the actual Japanese pronunciation of the word being more dissimilar to the English word and the supposed "pun" being closer to it, we thus have to turn to the original word for lack of a better phonetic alternative, as anything else would deviate too much from the actual kana that Toriyama-san went with. It's certainly a legitimate and well rationalized argument, not to mention a bizarre coincidence. But personally I would have stuck with Bardock. Even though it's technically incorrect from a phonetic standpoint as you've pointed out, I'd have gone with it simply to get across the IDEA that it's a pun for "Burdock", and not Burdock itself. It's more consistent and in keeping with the rest of the Saiya-jin names, which are all puns on words for veggies (both English and Japanese, though mostly English). Burdock kinda breaks the "pattern" so to speak.

It's one of those weird (yet interesting) linguistic quandaries, where the translator is forced to put some personal interpretation into translating the word, and make a judgment call on what gets the general idea across the best, and often times in such scenarios there's no right or wrong answer from a technical standpoint. But you'll certainly get no argument from me about using Burdock, as it is (as you've clearly demonstrated) still a technically correct tanslation/interpretation. And also the decision behind going with it comes from far better intentions (proper Japanese to English romanization and getting Toriyama's ideas across) than the "official" English alternatives (merchandising, offending overzealous parents, dumbing down for what's perceived as a child's level, random whim etc.). Plus who am I to argue with someone like Steve "Daimaō" Simmons? Though granted I'll readily take him on about Kakarot vs. Kakarotto, but that's a whole other can 'o worms. Fuad Ramses 08:50, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Yeah Faud Ramses, I had the same problem at first. I watched the TV special and it clearly sounds like an "a" rather than a "u." But I think a better example, or at least more similar example than Videl would be Baata. Pun- Butter. FUNi name Burter, Viz name Butta. Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't the "aa" be equivolent to our "ar," "ur," and "er?" It can lead to some confusion from time to time, so in this case it does make sense to go as close to the pun as possible. Onikage725 09:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

It is Bardock not Burdock. I saw the movie and he was called Bardock. It was even spelled Bardock. It should be changed from Burdock to Bardock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.243.223.146 (talk) 14:45, 22 February 2007

No, the official translation of the Japanese script is "Burdock". We checked. --DesireCampbell 19:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Bardock


text:
Lacepede

Lacepede can refer to:

 * Bernard Germain de Lacépède (1756–1825), French naturalist and politician.
 * Lacepede Bay, a bay in South Australia.
 * Lacépède, Lot-et-Garonne, a commune in France
 * Lacepede Islands, a group of four islands in the NW coast of Western Australia.
 * Kingston District Council, a local government area of South Australia formerly known as Lacepede District Council.

title: Lacepede