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Charles Langbridge Morgan

Charles Langbridge Morgan (22 January 1894 – 6 February 1958) was a British playwright and novelist of English and Welsh parentage. The main themes of his work were, as he himself put it, "Art, Love, and Death", and the relation between them. Themes of individual novels range from the paradoxes of freedom (The Voyage, The River Line), through passionate love seen from within (Portrait in a Mirror) and without (A Breeze of Morning), to the conflict of good and evil (The Judge's Story) and the enchanted boundary of death (Sparkenbroke). He was the husband of Welsh novelist Hilda Vaughan.

Early life
His maternal grandparents had emigrated to Australia from Pembrokeshire. His paternal grandparents were from Gloucestershire and Devon in England. His parents were married in Australia. His father, Sir Charles Langbridge Morgan, was a railway civil engineer, and at one time was President of the Institution of Civil Engineers. Morgan himself was born in Bromley, Kent. He was educated at the Naval Colleges of Osborne and Dartmouth and served as a midshipman in the China Fleet until 1913, when he returned to England to take the entrance examinations for Oxford. On the outbreak of war he rejoined the navy but was sent with Churchill's Naval Division to the defence of Antwerp. He was interned in the Netherlands which provided the setting for his best-selling novel The Fountain.

Some of his early poems were published in The Westminster Gazette. "To America" (1917) was included in A Treasury of World Poetry, edited by George Herbert Clarke. After World War I, he took his degree at Brasenose College, Oxford.

Family relationships; journalism and drama
After an unsuccessful relationship with Mary, a daughter of Alfred Mond, 1st Baron Melchett, he married the Welsh novelist Hilda Vaughan in 1923. They had two children: Dame Shirley Paget, Marchioness of Anglesey, and Roger Morgan, who became Librarian of the House of Lords Library. He was the drama critic of The Times from the 1920s until 1938, and contributed weekly articles on the London theatre to The New York Times. He wrote a series of articles for The Times Literary Supplement under the byline "Menander's Mirror" from 1942, and many articles for The Sunday Times.

His first play, The Flashing Stream (1938), had successful runs in London and Paris but was not well received in New York. The River Line (1952) was originally written as a novel in 1949 and concerned the activities of escaped British prisoners of war in France during World War II.

Honours and reputation
He was awarded the French Légion d'honneur in 1936, a promotion in 1945, and was elected a member of the Institut de France in 1949. From 1953 to 1956 he was the President of PEN International, the worldwide association of writers.

While Morgan enjoyed an immense reputation during his lifetime, particularly in France, and was awarded the 1940 James Tait Black Memorial Prize for fiction, he was sometimes criticised for excessive seriousness, and for some time he was rather neglected; he once claimed that the "sense of humour by which we are ruled avoids emotion and vision and grandeur of spirit as a weevil avoids the sun. It has banished tragedy from our theatre, eloquence from our debates, glory from our years of peace, splendour from our wars..." The character Gerard Challis in Stella Gibbons's Westwood is thought to be a caricature of him. His posthumous reputation was initially higher in France than in Britain, but has begun a new rise in recent years with the republication of various novels (including Capuchin Classics' The Voyage with an Introduction by Oxford's Valentine Cunningham in 2009), his poetry (edited by Peter Holland for Scarthin Books in 2008) and an edition of his plays published by Oberon Books in 2013. He was a consummate and committed stylist, from newspaper reviews to major novels a passionate craftsman of English prose. He was also very popular in Italy, especially in the 1950s. He spent long periods in the North, and in Tuscany. He wrote and set Sparkenbroke in Lucca.

Literary connection
Morgan employed Esmé Valerie Fletcher as his private secretary when she moved to London from Leeds in her determination to enter London literary circles and find a way to meet T. S. Eliot, her future husband. She acknowledged her gratitude to Morgan for providing her with her first opportunity, and later spoke of her respect for him as an author in private discussions with her family and friends.

Novels

 * The Gunroom (1919)
 * My Name is Legion (1925)
 * Portrait in a Mirror (1929)
 * The Fountain (1932)
 * Sparkenbroke (1936)
 * The Voyage (1940)
 * The Empty Room (1941)
 * The Judge's Story (1947)
 * The River Line (1949)
 * A Breeze of Morning (1951)
 * Challenge to Venus (1957)

Plays

 * The Flashing Stream (1938)
 * The River Line (1952)
 * The Burning Glass (1953)

Essays

 * Epitaph on George Moore (1935)
 * The House of Macmillan: (1843–1943) (1943)
 * Reflections in a Mirror (in two volumes 1944, 1946)
 * Liberties of the Mind (1951)
 * The Writer and his World (1960)
 * Dramatic Critic: selected reviews (1922–1939), selected and edited by Roger Morgan (Oberon Books 2013)

Poetry

 * Ode to France (1942)
 * The Collected Poems of Charles Morgan (2008)

Secondary titles

 * De Pange, Victor, Morgan, Classiques du XXe siècle (Paris: Editions universitaires, 1962)
 * Duffin, Henry Charles, The Novels and Plays of Charles Morgan. (London: Bowes and Bowes, 1959)
 * Lewis, Eiluned (ed.), Selected Letters of Charles Morgan (London/Melbourne: Macmillan, 1967)
 * Jackson, Nigel, The Seed That Falls: the Eleven Novels of Charles Morgan (Melbourne: Nigel Jackson, 2018)

title: Charles Langbridge Morgan


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Talk:Ilya Ehrenburg

Revert
This material was removed and reworded:

 * Ilya Grigoriewich Ehrenburg (January 27, 1891 - August 31, 1967) was a Russian writer and journalist. Ehrenburg was best known as the top war propagandist for the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin during World War II. During this time, he exhorted Soviet troops to kill and rape Germans that they encountered in the war effort. Ehrenburg authored an especially vitriolic leaflet entitled "Kill," which was circulated among the soldiers on the Eastern Front: "The Germans are not human beings. From now on the word German means to use the most terrible oath. From now on the word German strikes us to the quick. We shall not speak any more. We shall not get excited. We shall kill. If you have not killed at least one German a day, you have wasted that day ... If you cannot kill your German with a bullet, kill him with your bayonet. If there is calm on your part of the front, or if you are waiting for the fighting, kill a German in the meantime. If you leave a German alive, the German will hang a Russian and rape a Russian woman. If you kill one German, kill another -- there is nothing more amusing for us than a heap of German corpses. Do not count days, do not count kilometers. Count only the number of Germans killed by you. Kill the German -- that is your grandmother's request. Kill the German -- that is your child's prayer. Kill the German -- that is your motherland's loud request. Do not miss. Do not let through. Kill." [1] Many historians attribute Ehrenburg's hate-filled incitements as a motivating factor for the mass murder and rape of German civilians that took place as Soviet troops advanced through Nazi occupied territory toward the end of the war. On his passing in 1967, he was interred in Novodevichy Cemetery in Moscow. References [1] Alfred de Zayas, Nemesis at Potsdam (London: Roudedge & Kegan Paul, 2nd edition, 1979), pp. 6546, 201; and, Erich Kern (ed.), Verheimlichte Dokumente (Munich: FZ- Verlag, 1988), pp. 260-61, 353-55.(from the Institute for Historical Review http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v08/v08p507_Weber.html)

It is not untrue that Ehrenburg was one of the most important propagandists, but to start the article as saying his propaganda is what he is "best known for", and to follow up with up with something controversial he said, is inserting POV material by 1) ignoring everything else Ehrenburg did, and 2) emphasizing what he did wrong. He was an interesting character who defended a variety of causes in his lifetime, some of them highly questionable, some of them undoubtably correct, and he is very well known in the Russian literary world for some of his writing and his memoirs, rather than all the garbage he uttered during the war (to make a simple analogy, it is bit like writing a stubbed article on Clinton that says "Clinton is best known for lying about the Monica Lewinsky scandal" and including a quote of a lie he spoke - as you can see it may not be totally incorrect, but it would be insufficient and highly POV). I think the quote should be re-introduced at a later stage in the article, when it has been sufficiently de-stubbed, but to keep the article as it is above, with its bulk taken up by one quote, is quite unacceptable. -- Simonides 19:54, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * First off, don't remove valid content just because the present article doesn't cover other aspects of his career. It does tend to inaccurately represent him, but that can't be helped, it's part of the wiki process of building articles. Make whatever edits you can to fix the problem. However, I have problems with your replacement content as well:

 * "Ilya Ehrenburg played many roles in his life, and was never fully understood by his contemporaries. A revolutionary as a teenager, a disenchanted poet in his youth, writing Catholic poems despite his Jewish background, a follwer of Lenin on arrival in Paris who became an anti-Bolshevik, truthful and sensitive journalist, turning again in later years to writing crude Communist and war propaganda, while occasionally defending his views with boldness against Stalin or government mouthpieces, Ehrenburg was a public figure who at times made severe compromises to survive under the inescapable paradoxes of Soviet totalitarianism, and at others took foolhardy risks that he survived perhaps only by chance."

 * Everything that is bolded is obviously POV. Everyking 20:07, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I think the part about 'breaking the racial pride' of the German women should be removed. It is stated in Berlin: The Downfall 1945(Beevor), Chapter 3 (Fire and Sword and 'Noble Fury'):

"Yet while Ehrenburg never shrank from the most bloodthirsty harangues, the most notorious statement, which is still attributed to him by western historians, was a Nazi invention. He is accused of having urged Red Army soldiers to take German women as their 'lawful booty' and to 'break their racial pride'. 'There was a time', Ehrenburg retorted in Krasnaya Zvezda, 'when Germans used to fake important documents of the state. Now they have fallen so low as to fake my articles.' Mikko Luukkonen 23:10, Apr 3, 2005 (UTC)

This is truly disgusting, why were the crimes committed by this man, and crimes he urged others to committ, nowhere to be found on this wikipedia article?Androme385 (talk) 16:52, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

 * Do you mean that Beevor was mistaken in claiming that Ehrenburg was falsely accused of these outrageous announcements? Valetude (talk) 22:56, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Funny comment in the external link "Brief page on The Thaw"
"Honor of the first crack in the ice signaling the Thaw belongs to a young film student, Olga Shmarova, who in May 1953, three months after Stalin's death, complained about the absence of love interests in films and noted ironically that in Soviet films, lovers talk about bulldozers and tractors."

Shmara in Russian means "slut." -Rako

The Ehrenburg article
I am not going to spoil your good Encyclopedia and edit the text with my broken English... Just 2 kopecks from a Russian:

Krasnaya Zvezda (Red Star) 24 July 1942 (№173 [5236])

Kill him.

Here are excerpts from 3 letters found on the body of German soldiers: Administer Raingardt writes to lieutenant Otto Von Shirak: "They have withdrewed Frenchmen from us to the plant. I has chosen six Russians from the Minsk district. They are much more hardy than Frenchmen. Only one of them died, the rest continue to work in the field and on the farm.  They costs nothing  and we shouldh't  suffer that these beasts (their children may be kill our soldier) eat German bread. Yesterday I put to the flogging two Russian beasts who surreptitiously have devoured a skim milk intended for pigs..." Mateas Zimlih writes to his brother, lance bombardier Henrih Zimlih: "In the Laiden there is an encampment for Russians. It's possible to see them there. They do not afraid of weapons, but we talk with them with a good lash..." Otto Essman writes to lieutenant Helmut Vagand: "There is Russian POWs here. These blokes devour the rain worms on the aerodrome, they snap at slop-pail. I saw, as they eat weeds. Just fancy that these ... are people..." '''The slaveowners, they want to turn our people into slaves. They export Russians to Germany, torment them, drive them mad with hunger so much so that the dying people eat herbs, worms. And a dratted German with a rotten cigar in the teeths philosophizes: "Are they people?.."''' '''We know all. We remember all. We have understood: the Germans are not human beings. From now on the word German means to use the most terrible oath. From now on the word German discharges a rifle. We shall not speak any more. We shall not be indignant. We shall kill. If you have not killed at least one German a day, you have wasted that day. If you think that instead of you your comrade will kill a German, you do not realize the threat. If you will not kill a German, the German will kill you. He will capture your relatives and will torment them in his cursed Germany. If you cannot kill your German with a bullet, kill him with your bayonet. If there is calm on your part of the front, or if you are waiting for the fighting, kill a German in the meantime. If you leave a German alive, the German will hang a Russian and rape a Russian woman. If you kill one German, kill another -- there is nothing more amusing for us than a heap of German corpses. Do not count days, do not count kilometers. Count only the number of Germans killed by you. Kill the German -- that is your grandmother's request. Kill the German -- that is your child's prayer. Kill the German -- that is your motherland's loud request. Do not miss. Do not let through. Kill'''

http://www.sscadm.nsu.ru/deps/hum/reader/ehrenburg/004.html - original in Russian.

A necessary coment to the article: In this article the word German (in Russian - "nemec") means German male i.e soldier. In original Russian text the word "nemec" (German) is a masculine noun. He called to kill German soldiers not civilians. Ehrenburg wrote the article in 1942 when there were no any other Germans on the Soviet soil but soldiers.

The Soviet Command and Soviet Authorities and Soviet Media never order or call for raping and pillage or something. Just the contrary, Soviet Command issued special orders against revenge, and thousands of Soviet soldiers were punished. During first months of 1945 only number of officers prosecuted for violence towards German population exceeded 4000. Nekto

I wish also to clarify this paragraph in the wiki-article:

''' Other historians challenge Ehrenburg's authorship of the infamous "Kill"-leaflet. Their arguments are based on the absence of known original Soviet copies of the leaflet from archives and an article by the alleged author in the Krasnaya Zvezda dated November 24, 1944 in which Ehrenburg explicitly denies his authorship of the "Kill" leaflet. [2] (German) A few historians even claim the "Kill" leaflet to be a fabrication of the Nazi Propagandaministerium, invented to strengthen the German resistance during the final months of the war. ''' There is a confusion. The leaflet mention there was a Nazi fake. It also called “Kill” but has another words:

"Kill! Kill! In the German race there is nothing but evil; not one among the living, not one among the yet unborn but is evil! Follow the precepts of Comrade Stalin. Stamp out the fascist beast once and for all in its lair! Use force and break the racial pride of these Germanic women. Take them as your lawful booty. Kill! As you storm onward, kill, you gallant soldiers of the Red Army." http://www.natvan.com/free-speech/fs983a.html

These words never were written by Ehrenburg. And in his article “Blonde witch” (title hints to Blonde beast = ubermensh) in the Krasnaya Zvezda dated November 25, 1944 Ehrenburg wrote:

"There was a time, when Germans used to fake important documents of state. Now they have fallen so low as to fake my articles. The quotes that German general ascribed to me betrayed their’s author: only the German is able to make up this dirty" Nekto 19:49, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

The article in its present state seems very good but for one phrase. Calling Ehrenburg "a Soviet Jewish writer and journalist" seems strange. Despite the fact he was concsious of his origin, he never, as far as I know, wrote a single line in Hebrew of Jiddish, and wrote not often about Jewish life. Besides, he was not a Soviet writer till his forty years. D.E.

More on the Ehrenburg article
There is a detailed analysis and discussion (in Russian) on this very subject on the following web pages: http://labas.livejournal.com/301205.html http://labas.livejournal.com/301410.html http://labas.livejournal.com/301740.html

One particular bit I have translated here:

London weekly "Soviet War News" for the most part printed translations from Soviet Informbureau and articles from leading Soviet papers, including articles of Ehrenburg. On December 7, 1944 it printed the following text: "We need none of these flaxen-haired hyenas. We are coming to Germany for something else - for Germany. And these particular flaxen-haired witches will not easily escape us." This article gives reason for modern English-speaking readers to accuse Ehrenburg of racism for the phrase "flaxen-haired" and to ask a rhethorical question, "Finally, the words "will not easily escape us" could be construed as an incitement to violence against German women. What is it that Erenburg thought German women could not escape?" The problem is, however, that in the original article published in the "Red Star" 25 of November 1994 there are no "witches" in plural. It says, "We need none of these flaxen-haired hyenas. We are coming to Germany for something else - for Germany. And this particular flaxen-haired witch will not easily escape us." 75.84.102.227 05:56, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I would add that "flaxen-haired" is not the good translation. In the Russian original he uses the word "белокурые" or blond. Here he sarcastically associates Germany with blond hyena or blond witch and hints to the Nietzsche's concept of "the blond beast" ("blonden Bestie" or Übermensch). This playword was easily understood by a Soviet reader of the time. --Nekto 11:48, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

controversy
''KILL! KILL! In the German race there is nothing but evil. Stamp out the fascist beast once and for all in its lair! Use force and break the racial pride of these German women. Take them as your lawful booty. Kill! As you storm onward, kill! You gallant soldiers of the Red army''

that is a quote I got from James Charles Roy's The Vanished Kingdom: Travels Through the history of Prussia but I don't know how to cite it. it clearly states what the other one is attempted to be debunked of. I think the other one should be deleted, as the other one does not state what is being claimed by the adversary of it. and now the section can be cited

--Jadger 00:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Jadger, it was explained above by Nekto (on 26 October 2005) that Ehrenburg is not an author of this leaflet, and apparently all the thing is a fake. It is just a popular myth that you can sometimes meet in bagrain books on 1945 events but never in serious study. --Mgar 18:12, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Nekto doesn't cite a source that says it is fake though, he cites a source that also states that he wrote it. he cites the man himself saying he didn't write it, but how trustworthy is that? I'm pretty sure if any of us wrote it, that we would also deny it later. and I can definitely say this wasn't some bargain book, it has been properly peer reviewed. it was reviewed by Steven Ozment, Mclean Professor of Ancient and Modern History, Harvard University for one.

--Jadger 18:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Source was cited by Mikko Luukkonen (see . He has quoted Anthony Beavor's "Berlin: The Downfall 1945". Also, there are references in this anonymous comment:.
 * As I said, this leaflet is a popular myth, and occasionally one can find it in some books (especially in German) but usually not in serious studies. The most comprehensive biography of Ehernburg, "Tangled Loyalties" by american Joshua Rubenstein, also says nothing about this leaflet - and Rubinstein's book is far from apologethic!
 * Below are referencies to some of German scholars that have found this story is a myth:
 * Fisch, Bernhard, Ubej! Toete! Zur Rolle von Ilja Ehrenburgs Flugblaettern in den Jahren 1944/45. In: Geschichte, Erziehung, Politik, 8 (1997) 1, S. 22-27
 * Urban, Thomas: Als Held der Roten Armee gefeiert, als "Deutschenhasser" dämonisiert. Ilja Ehrenburg zwischen den politischen Fronten, in: Süddeutsche Zeitung 14.04.05, S. 10.
 * Carola Tischler: Die Vereinfachungen des Genossen Erenburg. Eine Endkriegs- und eine Nachkriegskontroverse, in: Elke Scherstjanoi (Hrsg.) Rotarmisten schreiben aus Deutschland. Briefe von der Front (1945) und historische Analysen. Texte und Materialien zur Zeitgeschichte, Bd. 14. K.G. Saur Verlag, München 2004; S. 326-339
 * The latter author cites the expert examination of Instituts fuer Zeitgeschichte (in Munchen) from May 15, 1966. The Institute claims it has no evidence of neither Ehrenburg's authorship nor existence of this leaflet in Rissian.
 * --Mgar 09:39, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Why so many sources remaind here and aren't included into the article. At the same time source [2] isn't available.Xx236 17:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

 * "("убей немца" literally translates as "kill the German man")" - NO - literally it means " kill a german (ANY GERMAN REGARDLESS OF SEX AGE etc)" - I am quite good in german, english, russian, estonian and finnish. So "убей немца" - means kill germans in general.

 * Please do not obscure the issue. (Не наводи тень на плетень).
 * Do you insist that you can say "немец" ("German" - masculine noun in the singular) about a German woman? If so then you definetely cannot claim that you are "good at Russian". Here you are a little lesson:

 * There are three genders in Russian: masculine, feminine and neutral. Lets analize the word немец.

 * немец (masculine noun in the singular) - a German man.
 * немцы (masculine noun in the plural)  - can mean German men or the Germans in general and it depends on the context.

 * немка (feminine noun in the singular)  - a German woman.
 * немки (feminine noun in the plural)    - German women.

 * Next step. Lets put the word немец in genitive case:

 * убей немца (masculine noun in the singular) - kill a German man.
 * убей немцев (masculine noun in the plural) - kill German men or kill the Germans in general and again it depends on the context.

 * So the only case when it can be said about killing the Germans in general is "убей немцев". But Ehrenburg didn't wrote "убей немцев", he wrote "убей немца" - kill a German man (masculine noun in the singular). Let's see the cases when in his article he used the word "немцы" - (masculine noun in the plural) which can mean both - German men or the Germans in general. Let see the context:

 * So one can see that Ehrenburg uses
 * немец (masculine noun in the singular) - a German man - 15 times + he (masculine pronoun in the singular) - 2 times = 17 times.
 * немцы (masculine noun in the plural) - German men or the Germans in general (depends on the context) - 3 times. The context is the usage of the masculine noun in the singular - 17 times.
 * --Nekto 07:50, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

This is kind of confusing, you first claim he never wrote the article, but then you later claim that he wrote "nemec" meaning German male, not all Germans. You refer to the article as not being wrote by him, then you claim it is mistranslated and he did not mean it as such. well, which is it?

--Jadger 06:25, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * No, you got it all wrong. I'm sorry if it happened probably because I'm handicapped in English.
 * First. I said that in 1942 he did write the article which is called "Kill!"(or sometimes translated as "Kill him!"). Above I have analyzed this article.
 * Second. In 1944 German propagandists wrote the bogus leaflet which they also called "Kill" and which had absolutely another words (all that rubbish about "the racial pride of German women" etc).
 * --Nekto 12:23, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh ok, that's understandable now, thanks for explaining it.

--Jadger 19:17, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, 1939-1945
"De Zayas, who also reads Russian, was able to evaluate captured Soviet records found in the files of the Wehrmacht Untersuchungsstelle and Fremde Heere Ost, including flyers of Ilya Ehrenburg (including the infamous "Ubei" flyer, which de Zayas publishes in facsimile, providing a partial translation)." (quoted from Talk:The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, 1939-1945, signed there Dr. Dr. Johannes van Aggelen).Xx236 11:00, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

meant for soliders not civilians?
Some one wrote that the translation means "German man" in the "kill" pamphlet, and that this rules out civilians completely, in terms of being targeted by soviet war crimes. as many men are civilians, even in war, last time I checked. So, this does not make sense, even if it is true which I don't know if it is, men can be civilians. In addition, inciting to kill is just that.
 * The article was written in 1942. It was the second year of the war when German troops advanced deep into the Soviet Union and reached the line Leningrad - Moscow - Stalingrad. At that time there were no any civilian Germans available to Soviet soldiers to commit any "soviet crimes" against them. At that time for Soviet soldiers the name "German (man)" only meant an armed enemy in the opposite trenches. In wartime there is nothing wrong in "inciting to kill" invaders. That's all.

Ehrenburg was a fucking communist. Cummunism has killed million people. That`s all. --195.126.85.141 16:40, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

 * You German scum murdered over eleven million innocent civilians in World War II. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paperalso2 (talk • contribs) 02:44, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

I like cake. 65.129.253.78 (talk) 00:24, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

A very poor article
This article's completely lopsided, full of trifles, full of holes - and the talk page's much longer than the article itself. For anybody with a knowledge of German & interested in how a good article on Ehrenburg may look like, see here: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilja_Grigorjewitsch_Ehrenburg
 * Excellent job!
 * It reminds me an old Russian joke:
 * There was an international competition for the best book about elephants.
 * Germany submitted 8 volume set under the title "Introduction into elephantology."
 * France submitted a lavishly illustrated booklet titled "Elephants and love."
 * England presented a treatise "Elephants and the World Trade."
 * The USA furnished a pocketbook "Everything you would like to know about elephants."
 * The USSR sent three volumes, with the following titles, Vol. 1. Russia - the Motherland of elephants. Vol. 2. Marxism classics about elephants. Vol. 3. Elephants in the light of decisions of the XXX Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union.
 * Bulgaria translated Soviet volumes and added Vol. 4. Bulgarian elephant is a younger brother of Soviet one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nekto (talk • contribs) 13:31, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi Nekto! Fine user name. Being the main author of the German article, I appreciate your description. I don't think every Ehrenburg article has to be an introduction into Ehrenburgology. But maybe the English one could do with some grains of real knowledge ...--Mautpreller (talk) 08:32, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

As has already been said in this talk page (and in the German wikipedia article!) the alleged call for rape is a Nazi fake. Removed. Feketekave (talk) 21:27, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I think any page where the "talk" section dwarfs the actual article should automatically warrant more to be written about the topic. When I first read about this guy it was in reference to the mass rape/murder during the invasion of Berlin. At the very least, the fact that some people hold him at least partially responsible. We can all agree Goebbels did his part in the genocide, which was nothing more than inciting Germans against those deemed subhuman. You can't let the fact that Germany was pretty much 100% in the wrong here, being that they started shit with Russia to begin with. After a non-aggression pact, mind you. Still, this man's writings had to have contributed at least a little bit to what happened during the final act of the war in Europe, the fall of Berlin. 65.129.253.78 (talk) 00:31, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Translation from Russian
There is an edit warring around article "Kill the German" by Erenburg. This article is widely know, published in hundreds of Soviet books, an no one ever disputed the authorship by Erenburg. However, the translation from Russian is indeed very poor. This is original Russian text (see Убей немца!):

Мы знаем все. Мы помним все. Мы поняли: немцы не люди. Отныне слово «немец» для нас самое страшное проклятье. Отныне слово «немец» разряжает ружье. Не будем говорить. Не будем возмущаться. Будем убивать. Если ты не убил за день хотя бы одного немца, твой день пропал. Если ты думаешь, что за тебя немца убьет твой сосед, ты не понял угрозы. Если ты не убьешь немца, немец убьет тебя. Он возьмёт твоих и будет мучить их в своей окаянной Германии. Если ты не можешь убить немца пулей, убей немца штыком. Если на твоем участке затишье, если ты ждешь боя, убей немца до боя. Если ты оставишь немца жить, немец повесит русского человека и опозорит русскую женщину. Если ты убил одного немца, убей другого — нет для нас ничего веселее немецких трупов. Не считай дней. Не считай верст. Считай одно: убитых тобою немцев. Убей немца! — это просит старуха-мать. Убей немца! — это молит тебя дитя. Убей немца! — это кричит родная земля. Не промахнись. Не пропусти. Убей!

This might be translated better as a notable example of war-time propaganda.Biophys (talk) 01:02, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

 * However such direct citation would be only appropriate in an article about Soviet war time propaganda; not here. "Kill, kill, kill!" is hardly an encyclopedic content.Biophys (talk) 01:31, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * But this is quite a piece: "If you did not kill a German today, your day is wasted. ... Nothing makes us happier than dead German bodies... Do not count the days [remaining to the end of the war]. Do not count the miles. Count only Germans killed by you...".Biophys (talk) 02:15, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Literary references
Should we include Ehrenburg's appearance in Neruda's memoirs (which are certainly literary), or should this section list only fictional references? (Ehrenburg plays a fairly major role in "Confieso que he vivido".) Feketekave (talk) 22:09, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

By the way - I have to agree with what somebody said above; the German wikipedia page on Ehrenburg is actually much more complete and NPOV than this one - it is in many ways an infinitely better page. I propose scrapping this one and translating that one. We can do much worse than that. Feketekave (talk) 22:27, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * No "scrapping" this page please! Please add new content if anything is missing. Sure, why not include his appearance in Neruda's memoirs or anything missing from German version?Biophys (talk)

Edits by an IP user

 * I am not quite sure what's the problem. The text inserted by IP seems to be sourced and explanatory.Biophys (talk) 21:22, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

 * The problem - among other things - is that he was implicitly accusing me of having lied about the content of the German wikipedia article; he replaced my edit by a text based both on other sources - which he may include - and on some rearranged passages of the German wikipedia disjoint from the ones I was referring to.

 * Quite aside from the issue of this user (who seems to be following my edits from varying IP addresses that can be traced to the same source, and has been more explicitly uncivil; I have reported him), I should say that, on the whole, de.wikipedia's account (essentially a rebuttal) of the accusations against Ehrenburg of encouraging violence against German civilians is admirably well-balanced and well-researched. The article there is simply a much more complete one than the one here. We may want to have a shorter one, but not a worse one. Feketekave (talk) 21:41, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

 * In this particular edit, the IP user provided some presumably valid refs rather than German wikipedia. The edit seems to be rather neutral and explanatory. I suggest to discuss content rather than behavior here.Biophys (talk) 22:06, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

"Ehrenburg himself was criticised by frontline soldiers in 1945"

German WP states E. was critizised by Viktor Semyonovich Abakumov, the head of the SMERSH in 1943-46 and from 1946 to 1951 minister of State Security (Ministry for State Security (Soviet Union)), calling such a person "frontline soldier" is .. well... not really true, exact. But maybe I overlooked something, where does the German WP article exactly say what you translated?84.139.243.179 (talk) 10:22, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

As you in all probability know perfectly well, having looked at the wikipedia.de page, your claim that I have called Abakumov a frontline soldier is untrue. The wikipedia article states: "Im letzten Kriegsjahr erhielt Ehrenburg kritische Briefe von Frontsoldaten, die ihm vorhielten, er habe sich gewandelt und trete nun plötzlich für Mildtätigkeit gegenüber den Deutschen ein. Am 7. April 1945 antwortete Ehrenburg in der Krasnaja Swesda, er habe bereits 1942 für „Gerechtigkeit, nicht Rache“ plädiert.[65]" - "In the last year of the way Ehrenburg received critical letters from frontline soldiers, who took him to task, stating that he had changed and now stood for mildness towards Germans. On 7. April 1945 Ehrenburg answered in Krasnaja Swesda, that he had always pleaded for "justice, not revenge.""

I would advise you to get a username. Feketekave (talk) 19:59, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

By the way - on the claimed "citation" of Ehrenburg on raping German women:

de.wikipedia.org: "Die Forschung ist sich seit langem einig, dass es sich um ein Gerücht der deutschen Propaganda handelt.[78] Und Lew Kopelew hat als Zeitzeuge mittlerweile vielfach bestätigt, dass ein solches Flugblatt Ehrenburgs nie existiert hat und weder sprachlich noch inhaltlich in Ehrenburgs Produktion passe. „Es scheint nur bei den deutschen Truppen bekannt gewesen zu sein und war wohl ein Versuch der Goebbels-Kader, auf diese Art den Widerstandswillen der Wehrmacht zu stärken.“[79]" - "Researchers have long agreed that this is a rumour [put around] by German propaganda. And Lev Kopoelev, as a contemporary witness, has stated numerous times that such a pamphlet of Ehrenburg's never existed and would not fit either in language or contact in Ehrenburg's work. "It seems to be known only by German troops and was most likely an attempt of the Goebbels cadres to strengthen the will to resistance on the part of the German army."[79]". Feketekave (talk) 20:18, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

 * OK, I'm sorry I had not seen that single sentence in the German article, you would avoid that with proper citations. However you seem to mix up citations of Ehrenburg's newspaper articles with the leaflet. You're absolutely right, the leaflet most probably never existed but that "kill the Germans" is real - do you deny it? And you're also absolutely right about the quality of the German article, it is balanced and also mentions critical aspects of E., something you seem to dislike. And who claims a citation of E. on raping women, I don't and I'm not aware of anybody else here. Maybe you're a little overreacting. 84.139.237.202 (talk) 09:20, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

When I brought the matter of this user's behaviour in the administrator's noticeboard, he complained that I had "deleted sourced content" - and linked precisely to a diff containing a supposed quote from Ehrenburg calling for the rape of German women. Since this quote is, as the de.wikipedia.org article states, in all probability a Nazi fake, I removed it; this is what this user complained about (stating that I was "throwing stones from a glass house").

I am confusing nothing and he is confusing nothing. He is simply trying to spread confusion - that is a different thing. Feel free to contribute to the discussion on the administrators' noticeboard. Feketekave (talk) 23:23, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Taking a content dispute to ANI does not really help. Registering as a regular user for making controversial edits is certainly a good idea. You both should and can negotiate the issues. The IP user seems to be more or less reasonable. Blocking a wide range of IP addresses he operates from would be undesirable.Biophys (talk) 23:56, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

There is no point in negotiating with somebody who uses his supposed anonimity (which in fact makes him easier to track) to make false claims about his own edits and those of other users. There is one way in which his addresses help him, though - unless you are going to spend a few minutes on this, you cannot see his other edits, or how he tracks other users while attempting to avoid being tracked. I have already received assistance at the administrators' noticeboard. Feketekave (talk) 00:07, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Sorry, but I did not see any obviously false claims. "There is no point in negotiating" is not good attitude.Biophys (talk) 00:47, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Take time to look at the evidence before voicing an opinion. He claimed at the administrator's noticeboard that nobody had ever claimed here that Ehrenburg called for the rape of German women - this not only after the authenticity of this "quote" was discussed here at length, but also after he criticised me there for deleting precisely that quotation. He also claimed I had fabricated material supposedly from the German wikipedia, whereas that material was actually there.

This user is simply a disruptive element logging in through anonymous Deutsche Telekom addresses. His stance, overall - if you care to follow it in other pages; the way I do this is to look at frivolous edits that anonymous IPs have made to my own edits, but he may have done this in others - is one that would be thoroughly unacceptable in the German wikipedia: it is a fringe attitude. He uses anonymous IPs so that no pattern emerges, and so his edits may look sensible to a casual outsider - until you realise his attempts at making the issue look bilateral are based simply on blatantly untrue statements used to spread confusion. Do you believe he cannot remember edits he has himself made within a 24 hour span?

We have disagreed mildly before on other pages; I do not see why this means you must favour somebody who has this sort of agenda.

Take further discussion of this topic to my talk page. Feketekave (talk) 01:59, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

 * "Now we understand the Germans are not human. Now the word 'German' has become the most terrible curse. Let us not speak. Let us not be indignant. Let us kill. If you do not kill a German, a German will kill you. He will carry away your family, and torture them in his damned Germany. If you have killed one German, kill another." (http://www.sovlit.com/bios/ehrenburg.html)
 * That's what Faketekave deleted by calling it "Nazi fake", even though it's sourced by "sovlit.com". Ehrenburg's propaganda articles are not disputed, the leaflet is. Maybe I caused some kind of reflex, I don't know. Somebody is indeed behaving disruptive here - and to be precise: nobody wants to add anything about "rape of women" currently, I don't and I'm not aware of anybody else (currently!). P.S. it would be nice to give some examples of "frivolous edits" instead of blindly accusing. I'm not aware of such things. 84.139.224.236 (talk) 09:14, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for providing the diff again. Anybody who clicks there will see the alleged call for rape, which is, indeed, a Nazi fake. The other quote was marked as ; apparently others thought the (online) reference insufficient. Feketekave (talk) 04:31, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

The matter was taken to the administrators. Checkuser determined that the anonymous IP editor was logging in from the same computer as User:HerkusMonte. User:HerkusMonte states that the anonymous editor was his brother; he has also stated that there should be no more trouble from that corner in the future. Feketekave (talk) 06:12, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Contrast
Contrast this article with Goebbels'. Hilarious, really. Or pathetic, whichever one prefers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.113.45.184 (talk) 08:38, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

 * True. Surprisingly (or not), the article in the German wikipedia is much more respectful and neutral. (The article on Ehrenburg, I mean...) Feketekave (talk) 10:24, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Propaganda article
The article declared that Germans "are not humans". This kind of description is quite misleading. The article quotes German behaviour towards Russian prisoners of war ("are they really humans?") and then bitterly comments that it is the Germans who do not behave as humans, "are not humans". This is not a "declaration".--Mautpreller (talk) 12:17, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Starting over
This is a severely deficient article on a major writer. The article on de.wiki - which is full of information, well-written, sympathetic but rather balanced - has earned a citation as an excellent article there; I cannot but agree. The article here could be improved vastly simply by the incorporation of translations of most of the de.wiki article here.

The matter of finding the time aside, would this be OK? What are the precedents? A main concern would be how to credit properly the authors of the de.wiki article for their good work. Feketekave (talk) 14:11, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

 * As the main author of the German article (about 100% of the text ;-), I have no objections. It would be fine, however, if my work were credited in any way. I offer to help if there are any problems as I know the literature about Ehrenburg rather well. --Mautpreller (talk) 11:29, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

 * I've got started. Let us see how it goes. Feketekave (talk) 16:52, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Fine. I don't know if you want to write anything about the ideological turnings of young Ilya Ehrenburg. It was interesting for me that he first joined the Bolsheviks, then was attracted to a kind of catholicism (under the influence of Jammes), later set his hopes upon the mencheviks and even the white army, and finally got acquainted with the idea that communist rule was "necessary." It was for this reason that Victor Shklovsky called him a "Paul Saulovitch." But feel free to decide what is important for the article.--Mautpreller (talk) 08:25, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
 * This is all very interesting to me. I find all of the material in your article rather worthwhile; at the same time, it might be best if we don't commit ourselves to sticking to a literal translation. Feketekave (talk) 10:09, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
 * You are right. The introduction sounds fine to me. If you agree, I'll have a look from time to time. Keep up the good work --Mautpreller (talk) 14:21, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

 * Yes, this is definitely unbalanced. Too much about WWII propaganda, too little about actual issues, such as his work and struggle with censorship (good source (Russian). My very best wishes (talk) 17:56, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Fixed a little, but this is still an overkill. My very best wishes (talk) 18:45, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

We have barely got started. Incidentally, isn't the first paragraph (as it stands) a little be odd? It raises more questions than it answers (notably, on the original language of the Black Book) and it spends too much times on issues that are better dealt with later. The biography should start with a brief mention of the background he was actually raised in ("middle-class" may do well enough, and is relevant given his political positions) and then deal with his positions regarding ancestry, religion and the like in an appropriate section (possibly its own section, once the page gets detailed enough). Feketekave (talk) 10:51, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Ilya Ehrenburg


text:
Cranbourne line

The Cranbourne line is a commuter railway line in the city of Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Operated by Metro Trains Melbourne, it is the city's second longest metropolitan railway line at 44 km. The line runs from Flinders Street station in central Melbourne to Cranbourne station in the south-east, serving 24 stations via the City Loop, South Yarra, Caulfield, Oakleigh, and Dandenong. The line operates for approximately 20 hours a day (from approximately 4:00 am to around midnight) with 24 hour service available on Friday and Saturday nights. During peak hour, headways of up to 5 to 15 minutes are operated with services every 15–20 minutes during off-peak hours. Trains on the Cranbourne line run with a seven-car formation operated by High Capacity Metro Trains.

The line originally opened in 1888 branching off from the Gippsland line at Dandenong as the South Gippsland line. Services operated as far as Port Albert, with extensive branch lines featuring on the non-electrified network. The line(s) were built to serve the regional townships of Cranbourne, Koo Wee Rup, and Leongatha, amongst others. The line was closed in 1993 after a decline in usage, however, the line was reopened and electrified to Cranbourne in 1995 as part of the "Building Better Cities" program. Significant growth has occurred since its reopening, with proposals to extend the line two stations to Clyde receiving support amongst other works on the corridor.

Since the 2010s, due to the heavily utilised infrastructure of the Cranbourne line, significant improvements and upgrades have been made. A $1 billion upgrade of the corridor between Dandenong and Cranbourne is currently under construction, with improvements including the removal of all level crossings, rebuilding stations, and the duplication of 8 km of track. Other works taking place have included the replacement of sleepers, the introduction of new signalling technology, the introduction of new rolling stock, and other works associated with the Metro Tunnel project. These projects have improved the quality and safety of the line, and will be completed by the opening of the Metro Tunnel in 2025.

19th century
In 1888, the Cranbourne line (then known as the South Gippsland railway line) began operations, splitting off from the main line to Gippsland at Dandenong with an extension to Cranbourne. The line was progressively extended to Koo Wee Rup, Nyora, and Loch in 1890, Korumburra and Leongatha in 1891, and Welshpool, Alberton, and Port Albert in 1892. From its opening until 2022, the Cranbourne line was fully single tracked from Dandenong to its terminus, and was only electrified upon its reopening in the 1990s.

Regional services
Throughout the early to mid 20th century, the South Gippsland railway line continued to open additional branch lines, including to Woodside, Barry Beach, Welshpool Jetty, Outtrim, Wonthaggi, and Strzelecki. All of these branch lines ceased their operations between the mid and late 20th century due to a decrease in patronage. On 6 June 1981, passenger services ceased operation to Yarram. In 1984, the line re-opened with services to Leongatha, until its second closure on 24 June 1993. The Barry Beach freight service ceased operations in 1992, with the line beyond Leongatha booked out of service on 30 June 1992, thus, effectively ending all traffic on the line beyond Leongatha. V/Line passenger services continued to Cranbourne till its electrification, with freight operations continuing into the late 1990s with freight services to the Koala siding.

Metropolitan services
In 1995, the Australian Government launched the "Building Better Cities" program, designed to redevelop Australian cities with better communities and infrastructure. The $27 million project included a rebuilt Dandenong station, a new station in Cranbourne North (Merinda Park station), the introduction of three position signalling, and electrification of the signal tracked corridor. These works resulted in the re-opening of a section of the South Gippsland line to passengers which became known as the Cranbourne Line.

Freight services continued on part of the South Gippsland line till 1998, when services from the Koala Siding were suspended. With these changes, the line became unused beyond Cranbourne. The exception was a tourist railway operation, which commenced operation between Nyora and Leongatha, and later became known as the South Gippsland Railway till its closure in January 2016.

21st century
In 2008, a package of works were unveiled to upgrade the Cranbourne line to improve frequencies and the quality of service. A new siding was constructed at Cranbourne, with a capacity of 6 trains, in order to increase frequencies without having to duplicate the line. In addition to the new siding, the $37 million project also brought a major upgrade to Cranbourne station, which included the construction of an enclosed waiting room, new platform shelters, new toilet facilities, formalised paved pedestrian access, an upgraded bus interchange, and increased security.

In 2012, Lynbrook station opened after two years of construction works. The station serves the suburbs of Lynbrook and Lyndhurst, with the station featuring accessible platforms, car parking facilities, and bus stops. In 2014, the level crossing at Springvale Road, Springvale, was removed by lowering the railway into a trench. Prior to this, the level crossing was considered the most dangerous in Victoria. The removal consisted of a 1.6 km trench and the construction of a new premium station at Springvale.

In September 2019, Qube Holdings commenced operating a daily service on a short section of the line, hauling containerised cement to the Kimberly-Clark siding at Dandenong South.

Metro Tunnel
The 2012 Network Development Plan identified the need for a north–south tunnel connecting the Cranbourne and Pakenham lines to the Sunbury line. In 2017, the Metro Tunnel began construction, involving the construction of five new underground stations, twin 9 km tunnels, and other associated infrastructure improvements. Leaving the existing Cranbourne line alignment before South Yarra station, new stations will be built at Anzac, Town Hall (with connections to Flinders Street station), State Library (with connections to Melbourne Central), Parkville, and Arden, before continuing onto the Sunbury line. These works will be completed by 2025, and upon completion, will create a singular rail line from Cranbourne and Pakenham to Sunbury and Melbourne Airport (from 2029).

Melbourne Airport rail link
The Melbourne Airport rail link will involve the construction of a 27 km line from Sunshine to a new station at Melbourne Airport. Connected via the Metro Tunnel, services will operate from the Cranbourne and Pakenham lines through the tunnel before splitting off at Sunshine to either Sunbury or Melbourne Airport. Construction of the line will involve the renovation of Sunshine station to allow for additional platforms, construction of new track, and the addition of two new stations at Keilor East and Melbourne Airport. Construction started in 2022 with services expected to begin in 2029.

Clyde extension
Services on the South Gippsland line were fully suspended in 1981 due to limited passenger numbers on the route. Since the closure, calls have been made to reopen the line to the suburb of Clyde. Reopening of the line to Clyde was first promised by the Australian Labor Party during the 1999 and 2002 state election campaigns, but were dumped before the 2006 election. In November 2003, a "Trainlink" bus service was introduced as an alternative, meeting each train at Cranbourne station and running on a largely one-way loop through Cranbourne East. The Bracks governments Victorian Transport Plan, released in 2008, listed the extensions and associated works as a "medium term" project, which was estimated to cost $200 million. Despite the political promise to revive the railway line for freight and passenger services by the Bracks-led Labor government in 1999, the project was abandoned in 2008 by his successor John Brumby.

In 2013, as part of Public Transport Victoria's Network Development Plan for metropolitan rail, an extension of the Cranbourne line to Clyde was earmarked to begin in the "long-term", which would equate to at least over the next 20 years. In January 2018, City of Casey advised it would need almost $3 billion worth of rail and road infrastructure projects to continue development of the region, including the extension of the metropolitan train from Cranbourne to Clyde and the duplication of the line between Dandenong and Cranbourne. In the lead up to the 2018 state election, the incumbent Andrews government announced the Cranbourne Line Upgrade, a project involving the duplication of 8 km of track between Dandenong and Cranbourne, a rebuilt Merinda Park station, the construction of a new rail connection for the Port Rail Shuttle Network, and the removal of all remaining level crossings on the corridor. Andrews argued that this project was required if an extension to Clyde was to be constructed. Opposition leader Matthew Guy instead promised that he would extend the Cranbourne line to Clyde if he won the election.

Again in the lead up to the 2022 state election, the City of Casey increased its campaign for the extension of the rail line to Clyde, including the construction of 3 new stations. The City of Casey proposal involved the construction of stations at Cranbourne East, Casey Fields (only proposed by the council), and Clyde. This proposal was supported again by opposition leader Matthew Guy, minus the station at Casey Fields. The incumbent Andrews government made no commitments to the Clyde rail extension, instead continuing construction on the Cranbourne Line Upgrade. The 2022 state election resulted in another Labor victory, with the Andrews government pushing ahead with the Cranbourne Line Upgrade, with the extension to Clyde remaining stagnant ever since.

Level Crossing Removals
The Level Crossing Removal Project has announced the removal of all 15 remaining level crossings on the Cranbourne line, to be completed in stages from 2018 to 2025. All level crossings between Caulfield and Dandenong were removed in 2018 as part of the Caulfield to Dandenong skyrail project. This included the removal of nine level crossings and the reconstruction of five elevated stations along the corridor. The second phase of removals involves removing individual crossings along the corridor through a variety of methods by 2025. Some crossings have been removed through elevating the rail corridor, some by lowering or raising the road, with other crossings being removed by closing the crossing off from motor traffic. These projects will leave the entirety of the Cranbourne line level crossing free by 2025, with projects on the Sunbury line leaving the entire Sunshine-Dandenong corridor crossing free by the opening of the Metro Tunnel in 2025.

Cranbourne line upgrade
Announced in the lead up to the 2018 Victorian state election, the Cranbourne line would receive a $1 billion upgrade to coincide with the opening of the Metro Tunnel. The project is being delivered by the Level Crossing Removal Project, and will include:

 * The removal of the four remaining level crossings (75% complete)
 * Evans Road, Lyndhurst (complete)
 * Greens Road, Dandenong South (complete)
 * Camms Road, Cranbourne (complete)
 * Webster Street, Dandenong (gone by 2025)
 * The duplication of 8 km of single track between Dandenong South and Cranbourne (complete)
 * The installation of a second rail bridge at Abbotts Road and Eumemmerring Creek in Dandenong South (complete)
 * The reconstruction of Merinda Park station (complete)
 * The delivery of a new rail connection for the Port Rail Shuttle Network (underway)

In 2020, the level crossing at Evans Road in Lyndhurst was removed through the construction of a road bridge over the rail line. In early 2021, the first platform of the newly rebuilt Merinda Park station was opened, with the second platform opening a year later. In February 2022, the second platform at Merinda Park was opened along with the completion of duplication works. After the duplication works, the line could now handle 10-minute frequencies during peak periods. As a result, the timetable was rewritten to allow for 50 extra Cranbourne services to operate every week. Alongside the duplication works, all level crossings on the line will be removed. The Cranbourne line is projected to become the first crossing-free line on the network, with the remaining two crossings and other upgrade works expected to be completed by 2025.

Services
Services on the Cranbourne line operates from approximately 4:00 am to around 11:30 pm daily. In general, during peak hours, train frequency is 5 minutes on the Dandenong corridor (combined with the Pakenham line) and 10 minutes in the AM peak on the Cranbourne line while during non-peak hours the frequency is reduced to 20–30 minutes throughout the entire route. Cranbourne line services operate as shuttles to and from Dandenong between 10:00 pm and 6:00 am, connecting with Pakenham line trains. During the peak, some services originate and terminate at Westall or Dandenong. Services run anticlockwise through the City Loop, and from 2025, Cranbourne line services will cease to stop at South Yarra, Richmond, and all City Loop stations when trains are rerouted through the Metro Tunnel upon opening. On Friday nights and weekends, services run 24 hours a day, with 60 minute frequencies available outside of normal operating hours. Since 13 February 2022, some off-peak daytime Cranbourne and Pakenham line services stop at Malvern station, running express between South Yarra and Malvern stations.

Freight operations are limited, with Qube Holdings operating a daily service on a short section of the line hauling containerised cement to the Kimberly-Clark siding at Dandenong South.

Train services on the Cranbourne line are also subjected to maintenance and renewal works, usually on selected Fridays and Saturdays. Shuttle bus services are provided throughout the duration of works for affected commuters.

Stopping Patterns
Legend — Station Status
 * ◼ Premium Station – Station staffed from first to last train
 * ◻ Host Station – Usually staffed during morning peak, however this can vary for different stations on the network.

Legend — Stopping Patterns Some services do not operate via the City Loop
 * ● – All trains stop
 * ◐ – Some services do not stop
 * ▲ – Only inbound trains stop (trains operate counter-clockwise through the City Loop all day)
 * | – Trains pass and do not stop

Operators
The Cranbourne line has had a total of 5 operators since its reopening in 1995. The majority of operations throughout its history have been privately run.

The government-owned Public Transport Corporation and later Bayside Trains operated the line for a short 4 years till the 1999 privatisation of Melbourne's rail network.

Bayside Trains was privatised in August 1999 and later rebranded M>Train. In 2002, M>Train was placed into receivership and the state government regained ownership of the line, with KPMG appointed as receivers to operate M>Train on behalf of the state government. Two years later, rival train operator Connex Melbourne took over the M>Train operations including the Cranbourne line. Metro Trains Melbourne, the current private operator, then took over the operations in 2009. The private operators have had a combined operational period of 24 years.

Route
The Cranbourne line forms a relatively linear route from the Melbourne CBD to its terminus in Cranbourne. The line is 44 km long and predominantly double-tracked; however, between Flinders Street station and Richmond, the track is widened to 12 tracks, narrowing to 6 tracks between Richmond and South Yarra before again narrowing to 4 tracks between South Yarra and Caulfield. After Caulfield station, the track again narrows to two tracks, which remain for the rest of the route. The only underground section of the Cranbourne line is in the City Loop, where the service stops at 3 underground stations and operates in a counter-clockwise direction. Exiting the city, the Cranbourne line traverses mainly flat country with few curves and fairly minimal earthworks for most of the line. However, between South Yarra and Malvern, the rail corridor has been lowered into a cutting to eliminate level crossings, and between Malvern and Caulfield, the corridor it has been raised on an embankment for the same reason. After Caulfield, the line formerly had numerous level crossings; all have now been abolished between Caulfield and Dandenong as part of an elevated rail project, as well as some older bridges over and under roads. The remaining crossing will be fully removed by 2025, with the Cranbourne line becoming the first fully level crossing free line on the Melbourne railway network.

The line follows the same alignment as the Pakenham line along the Gippsland line, with the two services splitting onto different routes at Dandenong. The Cranbourne line turns south and branches on to the South Gippsland line, while the Pakenham line continues along the Gippsland line. Most of the rail line goes through built-up suburbs and some industrial areas, but after Dandenong, the line gets into a mix of both open fields and suburbia. This outer portion of the line is one of Melbourne's main growth corridors, which is rapidly replacing farmland with housing and commercial developments, adding additional passengers to the line each year.

Stations
The line serves 24 stations across 44 km of track. The stations are a mix of elevated, lowered, underground, and ground level designs. Underground stations are present only in the City Loop, with the majority of elevated and lowered stations being constructed as part of level crossing removals. From 2025, services will cease to stop at Flinders Street, Southern Cross, Flagstaff, Melbourne Central, Parliament, Richmond, and South Yarra stations due to the opening of the Metro Tunnel.

Rolling stock
The Cranbourne line uses a fleet of electric multiple unit (EMU) High Capacity Metro Trains operating in a seven-car configuration, with three doors per side on each carriage and can accommodate of up to 1,380 passengers in each train-set. Shared with the Pakenham, Sunbury, and Airport lines, the rolling stock will consist of 70 High Capacity Metro Trains (HCMT), once fully delivered. They are built in Changchun, China, with final assembly occurring in Newport, Melbourne, by Evolution Rail, a consortium composed of CRRC Changchun Railway Vehicles, Downer Rail and Plenary Group.

Previously, the Cranbourne line was served by a fleet of Comeng and Siemens Nexas trains. The oldest Comeng trains (stage 1 and some stage 2) have been retired and scrapped as part of the HCMT introduction, however, some of these trains have been displaced onto other Melbourne metropolitan lines.

Alongside the passenger trains, Cranbourne line tracks and equipment are maintained by a fleet of engineering trains. The four types of engineering trains are: the shunting train; designed for moving trains along non-electrified corridors and for transporting other maintenance locomotives, for track evaluation; designed for evaluating track and its condition, the overhead inspection train; designed for overhead wiring inspection, and the infrastructure evaluation carriage designed for general infrastructure evaluation. Most of these trains are repurposed locomotives previously used by V/Line, Metro Trains, and the Southern Shorthaul Railroad.

Accessibility
In compliance with the Disability Discrimination Act of 1992, all stations that are new-built or rebuilt are fully accessible and comply with these guidelines. The majority of stations on the corridor are fully accessible, however, there are some stations that haven't been upgraded to meet these guidelines. These stations do feature ramps, however, they have a gradient greater than 1 in 14. Stations that are fully accessible feature ramps that have a gradient less than 1 in 14, have at-grade paths, or feature lifts. These stations typically also feature tactile boarding indicators, independent boarding ramps, wheelchair accessible myki barriers, hearing loops, and widened paths.

Projects improving station accessibility have included the Level Crossing Removal Project, which involves station rebuilds and upgrades, individual station upgrade projects, and associated Metro Tunnel works. These works have made significant strides in improving network accessibility, with more than 66% of Cranbourne line stations classed as fully accessible. This number is expected to grow within the coming years, as a network restructure associated with the opening of the Metro Tunnel is completed by 2025.

Signalling
Since its re-opening in 1995, the Cranbourne line had used a fixed-block, three-position signalling system designed for lower frequencies and less services. However, the ageing system had undermined reliability due to the presence of system faults and limited frequencies, requiring the Cranbourne, Pakenham, and Sunbury lines to upgrade their signalling system. Since 2021, high-capacity signalling (HCS) has been rolling out on the Pakenham, Cranbourne, and Sunbury lines, allowing trains to safely run closer together and run more frequently. The new system is being delivered by CPB Contractors and Bombardier Transportation under the Rail Systems Alliance. These works valued at $1 billion includes the roll-out of 55 km of HCS and communications systems on the aforementioned lines, allowing an increase in reliability and frequency. The line will be equipped with Bombardier's CityFlo 650 communications-based train control system, which will enable operation at 2–3 minute headways.

The upgrade works were completed in phases from 2021. With the upgraded signalling system, trains are now able to run closer to each other. The new system was tested on the Mernda line and a section of the Cranbourne line before being fully implemented. In March 2022, the Cranbourne line underwent further testing of high-tech signalling equipment, to ensure the new trains and signalling system can safely run alongside older-generation trains—including freight and V/Line trains—and the existing signalling system.

title: Cranbourne line


text:
Talk:Gravitational Beam Emitter

First header
I understand you reproduced the images below, "in order not to copy images from his manga", but I think it's important enough for the article to include a fair use image of the gun taken from the manga. If you think otherwise, I'd like to discuss it. Also (and I think this is an issue with the main BLAME! article), I think there doesn't need to be so many wiki links. Do we really want 15 different pages for every proper name of a person/place/etc. mentioned in the manga? --AsianAstronaut 19:54, 2004 Jul 17 (UTC)

 * Well, I was just avoiding any possible repurcussions from the actual author, or for plagarising images. I would love to be able to post images from the manga, but again, I'm just afraid of the consequences. If we are allowed to post low-res images, then I can easily resize the ones I possess to then put them on the site, such as an image of each of the main characters.

 * Regarding your last point, I think you may be right, I just went a bit overboard, as this was my first ever article. For the sake of keeping spoilers away, I wanted to put the character spoilers on their own page (such as the Killy one), but I suppose we could have one page of all the characters on it, instead of individual ones, just that the spoilers would have to be on that page. - Turbanator 14:52 GMT, 19/07/2004

Japanese name
If there's anyone who knows the Japanese name of the Gravitational Beam Emitter please add it to the article, with kanji and romaji. CayenneGaramonde (talk) 16:05, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

title: Talk:Gravitational Beam Emitter


text:
Peta

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, or more commonly known as PETA is an American animal rights organization.

Peta or PETA may refer to:

Groups, organizations, companies

 * Pembela Tanah Air, volunteer armies established by the occupying Japanese in the Dutch East Indies and British Malaya during World War II
 * People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, an American animal rights organization
 * People Eating Tasty Animals, an organization mocking the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals' stance on veganism
 * Philippine Educational Theater Association, a Philippine theatrical association

People

 * Peta (given name), including a list of people and fictional characters with the name
 * Tomasz Peta (born 1951), Roman Catholic Archbishop of the Metropolitan Archdiocese of Saint Mary in Astana, Kazakhstan

Places

 * Peta, Greece, a town
 * Peţa River, a river in Romania

Other uses

 * peta-, a metric prefix denoting a factor of 1015
 * Peta (cat), the unofficial Chief Mouser to the UK Cabinet Office 1964-78
 * Pentaerythritol tetraacrylate (PETA), an organic chemical
 * Pulse Ejector Thrust Augmentor, a type of jet engine

title: Peta


text:
Talk:Eli (biblical figure)

Spelling of Name
- The spelling of the Hebrew name was incorrect. It’s meaning is indeed “ascent,” but it should begin with ayin (עלי) and not alef, and it is cognate with the Arabic name “‘Ali” (علي) as well as the second word in the name of Isra’eli airline El Al (אל־על “to the heights”). The spelling with initial alef (אלי) means “my God” not “ascent.” Although I have encountered the name “Eli” spelled alef-lamed-yod, it is considered to be short for “Elyahu”/“Elijah”/“Elias” and therefore unrelated to “Eli” spelled ayin-lamed-yod. --Elyaqim 19:57, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Samuel-is-really-Saul material
User:FDuffy appears to have identified a single source for claims that critical scholars believe that Samuel in the story of Hannah (Bible) really refers to Saul. This article references "footnotes in the New American Bible (insufficiently specific -- need a page # -- couldn't identify notes). User:FDuffy identified a source in the King Saul article, as the personal web site of Rabbi Moshe Reiss,, a self-published source. Per WP:RS,

 * A self-published source is a published source that has not been subject to any form of independent fact-checking, or where no one stands between the writer and the act of publication. It includes personal websites, and books published by vanity presses. Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources.

None of the exceptions to self-published sources (e.g. by someone known to be highly regarded in a field) appear to apply here. Accordingly, it appears that this content is not reliably sourced and should be deleted. --Shirahadasha 13:42, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Here is the material deleted:

Though the text at face value states that the child was Samuel, most textual scholars believe that it originally referred to Saul (since the explanation given for Samuel's name is awkward, but a far better fit for Saul's).

 * Has "critical" "scholarship" really sunk to this new low? Str1977 (smile back) 16:09, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

That website is not my source, and it is quite disingenuous to claim that my source is the website. I have not even seen that Rabbi's name, let alone his website, until reading this. My source is the Jewish Encyclopedia. You can also see it for example, in the footnote of the New American Bible(a fairly significant translation) - (footnote for 1 Samuel 1:20) --User talk:FDuffy 14:15, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Identity Material
Regarding the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs of the "Identity" section, where is the reference for this material? I see the reference for the 1st paragraph (#4) but nothing for the 2nd and 3rd. I'd like to know the source of that material.

Gavin (talk) 19:02, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

The 2nd and 3rd paragraph of the identity section are completely untenable. The name of Eli the priest is not a variant of the name of the god El, they begin with two completely different letters of the alphabet (Eli starts with an ayin, El with an aleph). The name Eli comes from the root ayin-lamed-heh meaning to go up or ascend, as correctly noted in the introductory paragraph. It has no relation to the root aleph-lamed-heh from which the name El and the Hebrew word for god elohim are derived. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.90.150.226 (talk) 18:51, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Not Jewish
No one of this time identified themselves as "Jewish." I removed the reference in the first line. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.62.169.16 (talk) 04:07, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, who IS "Eli" ???
Wouldn't it make some sense to BEGIN this article with some description of WHO 'Eli' is, rather than starting with 'Hannah' and then later mentioning Eli in the third paragraph??? After all, the article is supposed to be about Eli! Maybe this is relevant? http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/112391/jewish/Eli-The-High-Priest.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.6.230.113 (talk) 01:24, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

gods/Gods
Hello, User:MuhannadDarwish, I noticed that you recently changed a "Gods" in quoted text to "gods". The one potential problem here is that the change was made in a block of quoted text -- so whether the capitalization is wrong or right, we need to match the book quoted. Have the seen the passage quoted in the original book? Alephb (talk) 00:21, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Eli (biblical figure)


text:
Georges Rayet

Georges-Antoine-Pons Rayet (12 December 1839 – 14 June 1906) was a French astronomer.

He was born in Bordeaux, France. He began working at the Paris Observatory in 1863. He worked on meteorology in addition to astronomy. He specialized in what was then the new field of spectroscopy.

He was the founder and director of the Bordeaux Observatory for more than 25 years until his death. He discovered Wolf–Rayet stars together with Charles Wolf in 1867. Awarded the Janssen Medal from the French Academy of Sciences in 1891.

Obituaries

 * AN 172 (1906) 111//112 (in French)
 * ApJ 25 (1906) 53
 * Obs 29 (1906) 332 (one paragraph)
 * PASP 18 (1906) 280 (one sentence)

title: Georges Rayet


text:
Talk:Blame!

Name = typo?
There's a persistent rumor going around that says the seemingly nonsensical name "Blame" was originally meant to be "Blam!", an onomatopoeia for a gunshot and a reference to Killy's gun. I haven't found any hard data for this so I don't dare edit it in, but it seems to be supported in part by Nihei's visually similar Marvel series "Snikt!" starring Wolverine and named after a similar onomatopoeia. Does anyone have any further info on this, an interview to quote or something?

The same rumor states Killy's name was supposed to be Billy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.234.5.136 (talk) 21:28, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

It's probably a typo on Nihei's part. Written in Japanese, the name of the manga is "Buramu", while "Blame" normally would be something like "Bureimu". It's likely the name of the manga should have been written "Blam!" in roman letters. Furthermore, that Killy's name was supposed to be Billy is highly unlikely. In Japanese his name's Kirii, with the first kanji of his name being 霧. According to wiktionary there are three readings for this kanji, "kiri", "mu" and "bu". No "bi", thus his name can't be pronounced "Billy". --85.225.123.99 (talk) 22:03, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I went ahead and added a note on the title's pronunciation. 85.225.123.151 (talk) 18:36, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

BLAME! film
Should there be a seperate section for the upcoming CGI-film with some information about the plot, confirmed characters, the choice of animation, at least 1 picture, production updates and a possible release-date? I've tried searching for these myself, but since I can't read kanji my sourches are very limited. Cyanid (talk) 16:38, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

 * The movie is not so notable on it's own to require it's own Wiki. If anything, something like "Blame! (Movie)" with a redirect here would be good.--Human.v2.0 (talk) 02:33, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

 * I actually meant a section within the "Blame!"-page. However, I'm starting to think this movie will perhaps never be, seeing as how there barely seems to be any updates. Cyanid (talk) 19:48, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Wikilinks
I think this article could use a lot less wiki links. A good example of how I think the article should be done; should you want to add information on every character and every organization, etc. that's in the manga; is the way the Naruto article does it. It breaks it down into different categories--characters, jutsus, advanced bloodlines, geography, and ninja ranks--each of which have their own article. Similarly, instead of creating links for every character or organization, we could have one article titled BLAME! characters, another one titled BLAME! species/BLAME! races/BLAME! organizations/BLAME! whatever, and so on, and then link to those articles from the main BLAME! article. Also right now, I think the character information for the three main characters is a little long for the main article, and perhaps some of the information should be dropped or shifted to the characters page. Thoughts? --AsianAstronaut 20:00, 2004 Jul 17 (UTC)

As I mentioned in the Talk:Gravitational Beam Emitter, I believe you're right, I was being too wiki-link-happy after creating my first article. We should try and split them up then somehow, leaving the main three (or four if including Dhomochevsky) characters as individual articles (after reading the Naruto section), but linking to them from the BLAME! characters page. The other characters can resides there, with links to their relevant species and/or organisations.

I think that would do for the time being. - Turbanator 15:06 GMT, 19/07/2004

 * After looking over what you've written on each character, without meaning to offend, I have to say that it's exhaustive to the point of uselessness. Anyone looking for a quick rundown of anything in the BLAME! universe is going to be in for some loooong reading times, as they sift through everything you've written so far, and all that you plan on writing. Even looking at the Graviton Beam Emitter article, I have to stop and say to myself, "This is an article about a gun. A gun from a managa. It's longer than articles on some historical figures here on Wikipedia." I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm for writing on Wikipedia, but I think the scope of what you want to do is a little too large, and could be helped by some massive editting and trimming down.
 * Maybe a single page for all of the characters, and no more than 2 or 3 paragraphs for each of the main characters. (And yeah, I think I'd add Dhomochevsky as a main character before I'd add Sanakan.) My suggestion before of a 'BLAME! races' or 'BLAME! organizations' article seem a bit excessive now, as each of these probably only need a few sentences each and would fit just fine into the main article. But yeah, I'd argue for the removal of the Killy article once you've moved all of the 'meat' of the article to the [[BLAME! characters] page, and then we'll see what we can do about other stuff. I thought about doing it myself, but seeing as this is your first major contribution to Wikipedia I don't want to act too heavy-handedly and scare you off.
 * Thoughts, objections, questions, comments? --AsianAstronaut 07:16, 2004 Jul 20 (UTC)

 * I've done some substantial cleanup to the article, which included a lot of rambling and unecessary information. It is much more concise now. --Formerly Wu 19:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Thank you, Formerly Wu. —Ragdoll 21:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

 * After reading BLAME!, I appreciate the explanations in this wiki. I don't see much regarding Silicon Life except for a character list.  An addition explaining their motives would be appreciated.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.8.32.65 (talk) 14:19, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

First release
Was the first volume really released in 1988? It looks like a typo if you look at the others :/ Philip Nilsson 10:38, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Ah, found it just when I edited :X

 * 出版社: 講談社 ; ISBN: 4063141829 ; 1 巻 (1998/06)

Nevermind then. Philip Nilsson 10:39, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Size of the Megastructure
The article states the structure stretches 32.675 AU, the size of Jupiter's orbit. Actually Jupiter orbits at 5.2 UA from the Sun. 32UA is far larger, slightly beyond Neptune's orbit.

If 32 AU is a diameter (radius 16), the Megastructure would be somewhere between Saturn's (10 AU) and Uranus's (19) orbits. What does the manga say?

86.210.10.164 (talk) 22:12, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

 * The citation is to the art book (or at least to a translation of it), which just says "orbit of Jupiter", giving no number. Leushenko (talk) 02:09, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Figuring it's about time, I changed it to reflect the actual semi-major axis of Jupiter's orbit, 5.2 AU. It has to actually be larger, since we have that 143,000 km room fully enveloped and Killy seemingly traveled much further after that point it the story. It may very well be 32 AU (as ridiculously huge as that is); we can change it back if anyone produces an actual quote from Nihei stating so.
 * On that note, has anyone considered how the builders could produce so much mass, since it'd need to be many orders of magnitude greater than all the mass in the Solar System? It bothered me, until I explained it in my mind that the virtually limitless energy available from the gravity furnace's technology could allow for conversion into limitless mass. CrinklyCrunk (talk) 15:00, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Reception for OVA should be separate.
There's little mention of the animation so the reception seems unfair to open with it. Perhaps if a paragraph summary about the animation were available it would make more sense to be in. --67.81.173.78 (talk) 05:21, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I've attempted to do something about this now. I still think the review is overly OVA-dominated, even though the OVA is very secondary to the manga in the case of BLAME!. The manga part also reads undeservedly negatively in my opinion. Blame is one of my favorite mangas, but it seems it doesn't appeal to the people who write for the sort of places wikipedia regards as good sources. Amaurea (talk) 16:53, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Heck, I don't even consider it fair to critique the OVA. It barely counts for me since I always felt it seemed more like a promo for, or an attempt to make use of animation created for an aborted larger work. Always felt so disappointing when considering what might have been. CrinklyCrunk (talk) 15:12, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Production section
This article could do with a production section of some sort. There are a number of sources that could be used, among them this: Interview: Knights of Sidonia Mangaka Tsutomu Nihei from Anime News Network. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 22:58, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070522040409/http://www.harveyawards.org/awards_2006nom.html to http://harveyawards.org/awards_2006nom.html

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Original Net Animation
I don't want to clutter the wiki page so hopefully someone will find this information useful to update the main page.

Here are the titles for the Original Net Animations. The titles are simply how they appear in the video (links to screen caps).

Blame! Ver.0.11: Salvaged Disc by Cibo (Original Net Animation) https://i.imgur.com/n4Kw7Ad.jpg

Log:01 Megastructure https://i.imgur.com/bQmn8UQ.jpg https://i.imgur.com/U3wixFo.jpg https://i.imgur.com/XAxhBPr.jpg

Log.2 Silicon Creature. Silicate. (English title) https://i.imgur.com/WtZq8o5.jpg

Log:03 Netsphere https://i.imgur.com/LRlCtdu.jpg

Log 4 Government Office (translated from Japanese, I believe written as Log 4: Tochikyoku in the English DVD) https://i.imgur.com/nq3tnwb.jpg

Log 5 Killy https://i.imgur.com/dUugW1w.jpg

Log 6 Cibo https://i.imgur.com/3HOZ1ZC.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.169.123.18 (talk) 16:04, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Blame!


text:
Talk:Iranians

Modern / ancient
A recent (anonymous) edit switched the article to talk about the modern people only, while the previous version talked only about the ancient people. Someone should merge the two, or something. --Shallot 20:01, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Anonymous contribution
An anonymous contributor replaced the article with this, which I reverted. Please consider merging the text, if useful:

 * Iranians are the citizens of the country of Iran, a nation in the Middle-East. An Iranian was called Persian in the English language prior to 1936, but the people of Iran has always used the name Iranian for themselves from the ancient times onward. The name Persian actually points to the province of Persis in southern Iran were the Persian kings originated from.

Roozbeh 20:30, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * The current article opens with "The Iranians means the Aryans." Does it?  If so, this page should redirect to Aryans, but that's clearly not the case.  Instead it goes on to define "Aryan," switching to a completely different definition (the modern one) for the second paragraph and back again for the third.  The fourth paragraph is dubious, as—if I recall correctly, anyway—"India" means "Land of the Indus."  What is this article trying to tell me?
 * I think this page should disambiguate to Aryan and Culture of Iran, or some similar arrangement, with the latter, more popular definition coming first. The text as it currently stands is clearly unacceptable.  Austin Hair 20:42, Jul 17, 2004 (UTC)
 * And no mention of the fact that Iranian is more closely linked with the languages of North India than with Europe. Hmmm!  Gerry Lynch 16:16, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I've tried to revise the article to distinguish the three possible meanings:
 * people associated with the modern country of Iran,
 * Iranian groups of antiquity (e.g. Medians, Persians),
 * the use of the term as a synonym for Aryan.
 * Probably some shades of meaning are missing or can be compressed into these previously-mentioned categories. For now I will leave the { { totallydisputed } } tag. --Saforrest 20:43, Aug 17, 2004 (UTC)

Disambiguation
The term "Iranians" cannot refer to Iranian languages, that's why redirecting it to Iranian is not factually accurate. Okay? AucamanTalk 09:17, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

title: Talk:Iranians


text:
The King of Torts

The King of Torts (2003) is a legal/suspense novel written by American author John Grisham. Doubleday published the first edition (ISBN 0-385-50804-2) in hardcover format; it immediately debuted at #1 on The New York Times Best Seller list, remaining in the top 15 for over 20 weeks. Dell Publishing published the paperback edition later in 2003 (ISBN 0-440-24153-7). Penguin Random House released an audiobook version in 2007.

Plot
Clay Carter, a public defender in Washington, D.C., reluctantly takes on the case of Tequila Watson, a man accused of a random street killing. Watson insists that he somehow was not in control of his body when he pulled the trigger, a story which Clay tries to dismiss but cannot get out of his mind. Clay tries his best to help Watson, venturing into the capital's most dangerous slums in search of evidence. Clay finally gets a subpoena forcing drug rehabilitation centers to hand over Watson's medical records, as well as those of another man accused of a similar murder.

Meanwhile, Clay is dating Rebecca Van Horn, a junior congressional aide, but deeply loathes her father, real estate developer Bennett Van Horn, an aggressive real estate mogul. When Clay refuses an offer to work for a senator who is closely involved with Bennett's land deals in Northern Virginia, Bennett pressures Rebecca into ending her relationship with Clay.

Clay is contacted by a mysterious man named Max Pace, who tells him that Watson's records are evidence of a scandal. It is revealed that Watson and other recovering addicts were illegally given an experimental drug called Tarvan, which caused them to behave violently. Pace says he has been hired by the drug company responsible, asking Clay to resign from his job as a public defender and arrange secret payoffs to the victims. While doing so would mean hiding exculpatory evidence from Watson, Clay goes along with the scheme, partly to win back Rebecca's affections with his newfound wealth.

Clay opens a law firm specializing in mass torts, hiring several friends and colleagues: lawyer Paulette, paralegal Rodney and computer expert Jonah. He continues to work with Max, who provides insider information concerning Dyloft, a carcinogenic drug produced by Ackerman Laboratories. Advised by Max, Clay orchestrates an intensive TV campaign which results in a $100 million settlement, being dubbed the "King of Torts" by the press. While Clay and his firm enjoy a massive windfall from the settlement, his clients are bitter at getting only a bit more than $50,000 each.

Max offers Clay information on yet another defective drug called Maxatil. Expecting to repeat his success, Clay recklessly incurs enormous expenses: launching a coast-to-coast TV campaign; signing up dozens of additional staff; renting additional office space; and signing up thousands of "Maxatil clients." However, Clay finds that conclusively linking Maxatil to negative side effects is far from easy. Moreover, it is produced by Goffman, a company known for their unwillingness to compromise on tort suits. The future of the Maxatil suit depends on the outcome of a single, long drawn out test case run by an aging maverick lawyer in Arizona.

Meanwhile, the FBI questions Clay on suspicion of insider trading. A criminal lawyer tells Clay that, having sold Ackerman shares short while knowing he would sue the company and push down the value of its shares, he is indeed culpable and could face prison. Max turns out to be a wanted con artist who has disappeared without a trace. Then, after Dyloft's effects are found to be deadlier than first thought, terminal patients who were kept from suing Ackerman for millions instead sue Clay for malpractice. Clay faces the prospect of being forced to consume all of his assets to pay his former clients.

Desperate for money, Clay turns to a mass tort against Hanna, a building supplies company which had produced batches of defective cement. The company's directors are willing to offer a fair compensation to disgruntled homeowners, but only if Clay agrees to cut his share of the compensations. Clay refuses, resulting in Hanna's bankruptcy, the loss of thousands of jobs and an economic disaster for the town where the company is based. When it becomes known that the collapse was caused by "a greedy lawyer," Clay is ambushed and beaten by some of the townsfolk.

Rebecca unexpectedly appears during Clay's recovery. Regaining her love helps him calmly take the final blow to his career: the jury in Arizona rejects the Maxatil suit, and all the millions which Clay invested in Maxatil goes down the drain. Clay is forced to declare bankruptcy, close down firm, give up his assets and surrender his law license. The FBI stops pursuing their case against Clay due to the loyalty of an old friend who refuses to provide incriminating evidence.

With nothing more to lose, Clay discloses his involvement in the Tarvan affair to an investigative journalist; a criminal lawyer will attempt to re-open the cases of the Tarvan test subjects, including Watson. Clay and Rebecca fly to London, where they would have a happy life without the opulence Clay no longer misses. It is, however, implied that Clay will still end up with a few million dollars in the end, because Paulette and Rodney—with whom Clay was extremely generous and loyal in distributing his initial settlements—both promise to return some of the money to him, never forgetting that they owe their financial success to him.

List of characters

 * Jarrett Clay Carter II – Protagonist of the story
 * Max Pace – a mysterious adviser of Clay Carter
 * Tequila Watson – A victim of the side effects of the mysterious drug, Tarvan
 * Adelfa Pumphrey – Mother of the man murdered by Tequila Watson
 * Rebecca Van Horn – Clay's long-time girlfriend
 * Bennett Van Horn – Rebecca's rich interfering father
 * Barbara Van Horn – Rebecca's pushy mother
 * Jermaine Vance – paralegal for Clay's law firm
 * Miss Glick – Clay's protective executive secretary
 * Oscar Mulrooney – Yale graduate lawyer who becomes Clay's top assistant
 * Paulette Tullos – secretary who came to Clay's firm from the public defenders office
 * Ridley – Clay's model girlfriend, initially employed as an escort at public functions
 * Patton French – The wealthiest tort lawyer in the USA
 * Dale Mooneyham – successful Arizona lawyer who dislikes mass tort lawyers
 * Rodney Albritton – chief paralegal for Clay's firm
 * Jonah – Clay's old roommate who becomes IT man for Clay's firm

title: The King of Torts


text:
Radovan (master)

Radovan (Raduan) was Croatian sculptor and architect who lived in Trogir in the 13th century. In Croatian he is commonly referred to as Majstor Radovan or "Master Radovan". Virtually no information exists about the personality and career of this artist, save for his monumental Romanesque portal of the Trogir cathedral.

Radovan inscribed his name and the year of the making of the main portal, 1240, on the lunette above the entrance: "FUNDATUR VALVE POST PARTUM VIRGINIS ALME PER RADUANUM CUNCTIS..."

The text informs us that master Radovan was the best in the art of sculpture and that the project was completed at the time when a Tuscan, Treguan from Florence, had been the bishop of Trogir.

That Radovan was a native son of Trogir (Traù) is attested, among other things, by his name, which figures frequently in Trogir's municipal archives in the 13th century.

The portal consists of four parts: on the doorjamb, the nude figures of Adam and Eve, supported by lions; inside are numerous reliefs depicting the Labors of the Months as well as hunting scenes; and finally in the middle are scenes from the life of Christ: from the Annunciation to the Resurrection – positioned in arches around the tympanum. Finally, in tympanum is the Birth of Christ. The figures are very realistic, recalling French Gothic sculpture, including the sculpture at Chartres Cathedral.

title: Radovan (master)