text:
Template talk:Wiktionary redirect

 * See: Village pump (proposals)/Archive 144 for consensus regarding use of this template

 * See also: Wikipedia talk:Soft redirect, where this template is also discussed.

Reason for recreation
I saw that this was deleted in July 2004 by User:Timwi because "I've added this to MediaWiki:Noarticletext". Clearly that solution is sub-optimal, because the noarticletext says "perhaps" there is an article at Wiktionary. This template is to be used when there is *definitely* an article at Wiktionary. I hope this explains my reasons for undeletion and restoration of the places that used it. Pcb21| Pete 18:44, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Renaming
This is the first I've ever heard of this template, and I really like it (see my comments on Wikipedia talk:Soft redirect). If the deletion policy is updated to use this template instead of nuking dicdefs: should be moved to ; should be moved to • Benc • 10:37, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me. Pcb21| Pete 11:12, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * For convenience, please keep template names as short as possible.--Patrick 01:00, 2004 Sep 1 (UTC)
 * You're right. Suggestion to rename withdrawn. • Benc • 03:06, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * I think "wi" may be a little *too* short... hard to guess what it means... "wikt" maybe? Pcb21| Pete 03:52, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * OK. Note however that one rarely has to guess what a template name means, one can see how the template is rendered.--Patrick 09:23, 2004 Sep 2 (UTC)
 * I vote to make it "wiktionary" (replacing the present redirect). This template is the most appropriate one to use that name. -- Netoholic @ 21:31, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * I think it should be something like "wikt" or "wiktionary2". "Wi" is just too ubiquitous, to me. Though I suppose it wouldn't have a need to direct to any other project than Wiktionary, I suppose. Phoenix-forgotten 01:55, 2005 Apr 25 (UTC)

Special:Shortpages
This template makes Special:Shortpages less useful since all articles using this template show up on that list. Angela. 01:31, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)
 * What is the threshold (Kb)? -- Netoholic @ 21:31, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * There is no threshold. Special:Shortpages is simply the list of the 1000 smallest pages in the main namespace. • Benc • 22:07, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Gotcha. Looks like we just have to get the message up above about 100 bytes/characters. -- Netoholic @ 22:33, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Does the count include the text of the template, or only the four characters needed to put the template into the article? RickK 22:34, Sep 5, 2004 (UTC)
 * Just checked, and it looks like it only counts the characters used to insert the template. I really hope we don't have to use "subst".-- Netoholic @ 22:56, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * I just thought of a hack to work around the problem: add a space-filling comment directed towards editors on every soft redirect page. Example at Red-handed. Of course, this is a minor waste of space, and it's a silly workaround at heart, so I'm a little ambivalent about recommending it as a solution. • Benc • 23:09, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * I doubt that would work long term. Is there an way to modify how Special:Shortpages is generated, to eliminate any pages with only template content (anything wrapped in "" )? -- Netoholic @ 23:38, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * That sounds like a better long-term solution. It would be relatively easy to implement by modifying the MediaWiki code. You could put in a feature request at Sourceforge, but it might be best to discuss it first on MediaWiki feature request and bug report discussion and/or the mailing list — major changes to Special pages have a way of generating unexpected side effects. • Benc • 01:05, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * This is now reported as Feature request 455. Angela. 14:24, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * Apparently, this fix never went through. People are still adding long hidden comments to pages using the wi template.  In order to standardize the approach, you can now substitute in longcomment to the page.  That will add just enough characters that it passes the threshold and keep these pages from showing up as a false-positive.  Rossami (talk) 18:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * yes please. --evrik (talk) 19:13, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

This is horrible
We shouldn't just have this notice on pages. Since when do we decide that there should never be an article with a certain name??? Because that's what that notice basically does. I don't like dicdefs on wikipedia at all, but this is going to the extreme. Dori | Talk 20:10, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

 * No it doesn't at all and I don't understand why you think it does. If for whatever reason (changing policy on Wikipedia, external factors changing) that an article is more appropriate than a redirect to Wiktionary, simply overwrite the template with the article. Pcb21| Pete 20:28, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * First because it doesn't appear as a red link, second, because newcomers may not know that they can just get rid of this message and write something there. Dori | Talk 20:32, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

 * Eh, a blue link means that an article on that subject is not allowed? We expect newcomers to learn a million and one things, this one is no different, and in practice this template is only used in borderline cases, so the number of overwritings is likely to be small. Pcb21| Pete 20:40, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * A blue link means that an article exists, anyone following the link will instead just see a page directing them only to the wiktionary, thus discouraging the creating of an article there. We all know that red links stimulate the creation of articles, and that dic defs are the easiest for newcomers to create, and that this notice will discourage them. It will also discourage the creation of valid articles under these names. And we should make it easier for newcomers to get started not harder. If it's hard now, it doesn't mean that it's OK to make it harder for them. We should make the whole process easier. Just now I was wondering how to go about listing a cat for deletion. I've been on Wikipedia since 2003, and I didn't feel like hunting around for some procedure. Dori | Talk 21:09, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

 * I think I need to some evidence of the harmful effect that you predict because at the moment I just don't see it happening. The articles that have had this template put upon them have generally gone through VfD and had a strong "move to wiktionary" vote. I think the value of the cross-wiki fertilization far outweighs the possible downside you have identified.

 * P.s. Categories for deletion. Pcb21| Pete 21:50, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Sorry, I don't think we ought to be encouraging newbies to create duplicates of dicdefs which already exist. If the community has decided that "foo" is not something we want to have an article on, we ought to record that community consensus in some way - and, moreover, one person doesn't get to overturn that community consensus by being bold. Noel (talk) 22:43, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Does the current revision make everybody happy? — siro χ  o  23:21, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

 * Not really, not an article not a redirect, yet in the main namespace. Dori | Talk 02:24, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

 * I like it, in the spirit of compromise. Dori, what is the problem with having a new page type - a soft redirect if you will? Pcb21| Pete 06:45, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I still feel the same way about this, but when I am the only one crying about something I usually drop the matter. Dori | Talk 12:58, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

I think this template is very useful and should be encouraged. RickK 05:32, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

This is terrible - it makes it very difficult to edit these pages - I fell foul of this once already. Mark Richards 19:41, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * How? Pcb21| Pete 21:23, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * A plain cross-project redirect to the Wiktionary is what's impossible to edit (without hand-crafting the appropriate URL). This template makes it far easier to do so. Noel (talk) 22:43, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * I find this a sneaky way to get around the rule the Wikipedia is not a dictionary (without claiming that was its intent). But if you don't like that rule, try to change it, and propose merging Wiktionary with Wikipedia, rather than working around it like this and then claiming the result is a compromise. It's a clear breaking of the rule. Pages consisting of nothing but weblinks are also supposedly discouraged here. And I don't see why Wikipedia should particularly link to Wiktionary or vice verse. This smells of preferring something because it is in-house rather than because it is best. You would also put links to other dictionaries on the page if you really wanted to give most value. We often give external links from articles to pages that have better and fuller discussions on the topic than Wikipedia does, and quite rightly. So do Encarta and Britannica. Are other external links to other dictionaries forbidden on these pages? Why? Who has decreed this and by what authority? Also articles are not supposed to consist of "Mere collections of external links" or "Mere collections of internal links". Is a collection of one not a collection? This appears to me to effectively break the policy of Wikipedia not being a dictionary and break the policy of Wikipedia and Wiktionary being separate and break the policy of articles not being mere web links. And by what rule are people prevented from now creating thousands of such pages is this is allowed? Jallan 01:48, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Considering what the text currently is for a nonexistant page (click that to see, it links to wiktionary), I don't think this is much different, it simply confirms that indeed there is a definition of the term at wiktionary. This template is basically different boiler plate text for a currently empty entry.  — siro  χ  o  04:31, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC)

 * I don't look at these pages as primarily information (i.e. the Wikitionary link). If that's all they were, Jallan's points would be well taken. Rather, a main motivation for this template is to prevent the creation of (potentially duplicate) dicdef's. Noel (talk) 22:43, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Not so horrible, but not great either
There needs to be a way to exclude pages with this template on it from appearing on Special:Shortpages and from being counted as articles (all that is needed is a single internal link to be counted as an article; for example Flagrante delicto is counted as an article, which is absurd). These pages also need to be excluded from special:random page, otherwise that function will become useless when/if each Wiktionary entry has a corresponding page with the WI template on it here. At the same time these pages should show up in standard searches. --mav 20:43, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Revert
I reverted back to the version with self references, as it better models a page like this — siro  χ  o  00:47, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)

 * Reverted back. See avoid self references. The example you note is in part of the message system of the software and thus is changed automatically based on the site name. This template is placed on article pages. Use of Wikipedia makes the resulting article pages less useful to downstream users (who would want to remove such self-references). --mav 17:01, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Agree with mav. -- Netoholic @ 17:26, 2004 Oct 29 (UTC)

Deletion.
This template might provide a link to a wiktionary article that is certain to exist. But we should keep in mind that putting it on the page makes the link to the article blue, when there's in fact no article to read which hurts wikipedia. Also, empty pages provide a link to look up the term in Wiktionary, even if it's not certain the term is there. Wouldn't the right course of action be to simply create the entry at wiktionary, instead of using this template?

Since Wikipedia's goal is to make an encyclopedia, I don't see how this template would help. [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|(talk)]] 12:06, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)

 * This template exists to facilitate border encyclopedia/dictionary cases. Please give me a shout if you would like it explained in detail/again/slowly. Pcb21| Pete 00:40, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * A main motivation for this template is explicitly to prevent the creation of duplicate dicdef's; we don't want someone to create those articles. Noel (talk) 22:51, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Please, explain in detail, cause I think that if "There is no encyclopedia article for "Wi"." as the template states the article should be left as a red link which doesn't happen when the template is added to it. Maybe it needs a little rewording? [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|(talk)]] 09:50, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)

 * On sober reflection my previous seems a bit odd. Apologies.
 * The intent of the template is that it should be used when a title is border line encyclopedia/dictionary, and when the community consensus (cough) has determined that the title belongs on the dictionary side of the border. However people will go on creating links to this borderline article. If we don't have a template, someone will fill that red link with another dicdef, and the cycle begins again. Having a blue link, which as you suggest implicitly suggests we have an encyclopedia article (when in fact we have a pointer to a dictionary entry) is to my mind really no great loss at all compared to the gain of wasted effort battling over wikipedia/wiktionary. Pcb21| Pete 16:08, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Parameter version of template?
Hello. I still consider myself to be a Wikipedia newbie, and I've only used this template once to create a soft redirect but like the current version. Has anyone considered creating a version of this template that accepts a parameter--so something like ? This would function much like the template. The purpose of such a template would be to allow the editor to link to Wiktionary under something other than PAGENAME. Thanks. Lbbzman 19:22, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Can you give an example of where that would be useful? This template is usedused on page titles that would otherwise be no more than dicdefs.  -- Netoholic @ 23:12, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Sure. I recently placed the tag on Purlins. The correct Wiktionary article is "purlin" (singular). I suppose I could have created a redirect on Wikipedia from Purlins to Purlin, and then placed the tag on the new page, but creating a redirect to a soft redirect didn't seem like the right answer. As it stands now, a user clicking on the link in the template will be taken to a search page for the plural form, which isn't the worst thing in the world. Just wondering if wipar makes sense or not. Lbbzman 01:04, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

 * I think the best solution is to just add redirects on Wikipedia from plural to singular, as I've done. I then added the Wikitionary template to that singular page.  -- Netoholic @ 05:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

 * This template already takes an optional parameter; {{wi|purlin}} would have done what you wanted. —Cryptic (talk) 21:08, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Good to know. Thanks, Cryptic. As I mentioned, I still don't have the hang of deciphering templates, so if there isn't clear documentation on the discussion page, it's difficult for me to tell. Thanks again! Lbbzman 22:41, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I didn't know that this template took an optional parameter (I didn't even know optional parameters were possible!) - so I've created a separate one that does "Widirect". Feel free to TfD it if you think neccessary, but if you do update the WP:SISTER page to let people know about the parameter! Thryduulf 14:14, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Version Wording
The language of this template was changed in the last couple of months. Does anyone else prefer the older version? I don't think the template should state that an encyclopedia article is not possible (even if it's toned down to some as with Croquant's edit). The previous version seemed sufficient to discourage repeated definition creation. -- JLaTondre 21:14, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I've removed the "because some Wikipedia editors believe such an entry would merely be a dictionary definition" part. There are too many cases where it's possible for an encyclopedia article to be generated, but the current article is merely a dictdef. Having that phrase makes the template unusable in those places. We shouldn't be saying an encyclopedia article is impossible in all cases. -- JLaTondre 01:38, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

...12:43 I am still experimenting with Wikipedia.

I have come to this talk pge for the terming suggested for an Article " Arrivisme" I have go it from Provincial Arrivism, it was the last word in a paregrph in a Documental entry concerning the Albany Convention.

My searching declares it as to arive with conductivity, allthough ism represents more a terming then contuctivity; such as to do and a few more. could we have this article in a == Wording Version ==//user talk D.G.DeL-Dorchester MassDavid George DeLancey (talk) 17:48, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Bad for Wikibooks and wikisource etc.
I still don't think this template is a good idea. Keeping the MediaWiki:Noarticletext means it also suggests you to look at other Wikimedia projects besides wiktionary. This template takes that away. -Mgm|(talk) 10:36, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Because we all know everyone spends a lot of time checking thoroughly and researching before creating articles, heh. I don't see how this template really hurts anything. --W.marsh 14:03, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Anyway the point is just to prevent people creating dicdefs again and again independent of eachother. I thought there was a similar template for Wikibooks and Wikisource, but I can't find them at a glance. If they really don't exist, creating them might be a good idea. --W.marsh 16:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

 * What about when a dictdef has never been created there, and likely never will be? Use one's loaf and its redirect Use One's Loaf were newly created just with this template. There is nothing in their deletion logs and no articles link to them. Also, if it is to be properly useful, we should create redirects Use my loaf and Use your loaf (as well as, in the vein of its creation, their various capitalizations), which would be the actual common use of the term rather than the generic. —Centrx→talk • 04:17, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * There should be a statement limiting its use. —Centrx→talk • 11:14, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe a notice that it is appropriate to delete after a brief period of time for orphans and nearly orphaned pages? —Centrx→talk • 04:22, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

"May like to search"?
I found this phrase clumsy, "you may like to search wiktionary instead", I replaced "like" with "want". I'm not in love with my current wording, feel free to replace this with something else reasonable if my current wording still isn't the best. --Xyzzyplugh 04:36, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Deleted sentence
I deleted the following sentence: "If a page is not prone to chronic re-creation, delete the page with this template after a reasonable period of time". I don't see that we have any consensus that this template shouldn't stay permanently. --Xyzzyplugh 14:26, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, they show up on Random article. A reader should never be sent to a wiktionary redirect. If it is a link used in articles, those generic words should be unlinked (or linked to the proper target), and then the page deleted; new links should not be created thinking there is an article there. —Centrx→talk • 02:18, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

New wording

 * Can I propose new wording as follows

 * Conrad.Irwin 17:08, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Looks good, though I think the last part should be stronger and more direct: Wikipedia is not a dictionary, do not create a mere dictionary definition here. —Centrx→talk • 06:43, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

New Text
After finding the template Wi I seem to have made some faulty assumptions see User_talk:Jeepday I would like to suggest a rewording of the text for it.

Current Text
This template is only for dictionary definitions that currently exist on Wiktionary and which are likely to be re-created in unencyclopedic form.

Do not place it on every word!

Suggested Text
This template is only for dictionary definitions that currently exist on Wiktionary and which due to there repeated unencyclopedic creation and deletion are likely to be re-created in unencyclopedic form.

Do not place it on every word!

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jeepday (talk • contribs) 13:55, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I made the change, slightly abbreviated. —Centrx→talk • 23:01, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Works for me thanks (remembered to sign this time} Jeepday 02:50, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Proposed change
The wording "do not create a mere dictionary definition" (my emphasis) implies that a full dictionary article, with etymology and usage notes, is acceptable at Wikipedia. This contradicts WP:WINAD, which says that full dictionary articles go in Wiktionary not Wikipedia. Propose change to say "please note that Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Information about specific words and names is usually suitable for Wiktionary." Or something like that. Pan Dan 15:14, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It is technically correct. I changed it a bit so it is more clear, . —Centrx→talk • 16:11, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, both "mere(ly)" and "definition" are problematic. Per WP:WINAD, dictionary articles (i.e. articles appropriate for Wiktionary but not Wikipedia) are neither mere, nor merely definitions.  How about "please do not create a dictionary article" (with a link to WP:WINAD to explain what a dictionary article is).  Pan Dan 16:23, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

What is the purpose of this and soft redirects?
These are counted as articles in the main namespace, correct? Why shouldn't we just salt these pages instead? It's not that difficult to get to Wiktionary...--h i s  s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 08:05, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * In many cases, an actual encyclopedic article could potentially be written. Salting would prevent that from happening. The template is to discourage the recreation of definitions; it is not to prevent valid article creation. -- JLaTondre 14:59, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This is much more useful to the reader then salting. Sure getting to Wiktionary may be easy if you know it exists, but why make it more difficult? This template is a more reader-friendly alternative to salting, but for a potential actual encyclopedic article, wouldn't a redlink be preferable? A false bluelink would discourage creation, whereas a redlink is a big "create me" sign. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 03:49, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Soft redirect discussion
I have started a discussion on soft redirects, and their future on the project, here. Any input from people knowledable about redirects in general is welcome and encouraged. - —Preceding unsigned comment added by TexasAndroid (talk • contribs) 19:49, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

This template should not encourage the creation of articles
For reference, the current wording of this template is:

 * Wikipedia does not currently have an encyclopedia article for Wi. You may want to search Wiktionary for "Wi" instead.
 * To begin an article here, feel free to edit this page, but please do not create a dictionary article.

In my experience, this template is normally used when there is consensus (usually at AfD) that there is no way an encyclopedic article with a given title can be written, but it is still considered useful to refer readers to the dictionary definition (in part for the user's convenience, but also to discourage dictionary article creation). Therefore, having a link encouraging readers to create an article, even with disclaimers that Wikipedia is not a dictionary, is counterproductive. When it is plausible that an encyclopedic article could be written, this template shouldn't be used--we should have a stub instead. Remember that people can still click in the usual edit link at the top of the page, even if we remove the sentence "To begin an article here...". I propose the following wording: "Wikipedia does not have an encyclopedia article for X. You may want to refer to Wiktionary for a definition of X instead." Note that I removed "currently", because it also seems to encourage the creation of an article here. I also removed "search", because we shouldn't be asking users to search Wiktionary--we should refer them directly to an existing Wiktionary entry instead (this may need some changes to the URL used for linking). --Itub (talk) 09:24, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

 * I am entirely in agreement. You didn't actually remove the "search" wording, though, so I implemented that.  I went with the wording "You may wish to read Wiktionary's entry on "(subject)" instead."--Father Goose (talk) 03:37, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

 * I completely agree with this general thrust. There's now some people that think that any article that's 'big enough' is automatically an encyclopedia article. The policy doesn't say that, nor does simple common sense, in fact the policy has always said exactly the opposite.- Wolfkeeper  21:42, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Your interpretation of policy is not shared by the community: Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_73 -- Neil N   talk to me  21:56, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

 * I think it's more that they don't understand or believe that the policy is correct; hey they might be right, but I kinda doubt it. There are explicit bits that say the exact opposite from them, and there's merely a few equivocations that point the other way. But for practical reasons the templates have to be as simple as possible and must reflect the broad sweep of policies, and for ~99.9+% of the articles it's clear that the policy is that The Wikipedia Is Not A Dictionary. For a very few articles (like maybe fuck for example), it's possibly not right, but for examples where this template is being used, that's rarely an issue.- Wolfkeeper  00:03, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Automatic inclusion of longcomment
Can this template be modified to automatically substitute longcomment into the article upon creation? This would make the template much easier to use, especially because there's now an automatic filter to warn you when creating a small article. Wizard191 (talk) 17:23, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * This was attempted before, but it broke a bunch of stuff. It's not a bad idea, but it should be implemented at another template name (Wi2?) and should be a subst-only template. It also needs to support the different parameters. --- RockMFR 06:20, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Yeah, you are right, it would make more sense to make it a new template like Wi2. It just seems counter intuitive to make the standard usage of the template to include adding two temples. Wizard191 (talk) 15:42, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

To revive an ancient discussion, given the new attention to this template... We pulled off something like this a few years back on a different template. copyvio. In that case we moved the main template code to the new template (copyviocore) and created a new subst-only wrapper at the original name. So the main change of usage ended up only being the need to subst the existing template. One key difference here, this is a template already existing on many, many pages, all of which would need to be edited (likely by a bot) to reflect the new usage. - TexasAndroid (talk) 21:48, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

 * Wi is a bit of a weird name anyway, probably best to just create another template, like WiLong or something.- Wolfkeeper  22:46, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

better support for transwiki
I recently added this template to Kemonomimi after a contentious agreement that it was better suited for wiktionary (the addition was made mostly because its very likely given the contentious nature of the move that caused a split in the list as well it would be recreated). However, when I tried to apply the template to get a visually appealing result, it always failed. Right now the soft redirect works, but as you can see, it's far from asetically pleasing. じん ない  06:46, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Template is now protected
Having policy and templates disconnected from each other is never going to fly.- Wolfkeeper  23:55, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

If you want the template changed to better reflect the policy then we can discuss it here and then get the admin to update it.- Wolfkeeper  23:55, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

If you want to change the policy you should discuss it on one of the policy talk pages, and then we can update this template afterwards to match it.- Wolfkeeper  23:55, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

But Having Policy and Templates Disconnected from each other is Never Going to Fly.- Wolfkeeper  23:55, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

 * Sigh, again, this is your particular interpretation of policy per Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_73. Per WP:NOT: "In some cases, a word or phrase itself may be an encyclopedic subject...". Policies are descriptive, not proscriptive. We have community-accepted articles (prithee, gay, spastic, fuck, Yankee) which "are about the history and usage of the term." -- Neil N    talk to me  00:01, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

 * The fact that you have to rely on the phrase 'interpretation' really isn't so good. It's always possible to deliberately or accidentally misinterpret any piece of text, particularly if you are selective; but the policies are written to be of a piece, and when you take the whole thing together, I believe it becomes very hard to square it with what you claim; the policies don't seem to say that, and don't seem to have ever said that.- Wolfkeeper  00:11, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

 * In any case I don't necessarily disagree that some of these articles may be valid. But that's not important for cases where this template has been successfully applied. In the cases where the detail of Wikipedia is not a dictionary doesn't apply the article won't be deleted anyway.- Wolfkeeper  00:11, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

 * Neither version being fought over here works for me. "Start an article if there is a fair chance it would grow to a full, encyclopedic size in the near future" since it seems to imply "go ahead and add a dicdef if you think someone else will turn it into an encyclopedia article instead.  The other version, "Start an article only if an article can be written that isn't about the history and usage of the term" is, as Neil says, out of sync with both policy and practice.  We do have articles about the history and usage of terms, when they go beyond "a dicdef", and the reason we have them is because the community supports having them.--Father Goose (talk) 03:50, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

 * Very surprisingly, the policy and practice both is actually massively nearer the non term end, and a lot of those articles that are technically about a term right now can be turned into full non-term encyclopedic style with only minor editing to the introduction to change the style and scope; the content is usually fine. There aren't actually that many articles that are really about the history and usage of terms; in percentage terms they're a tiny, tiny fraction. Enormous numbers of articles are about places or people or scientific concepts or animals or plants; and these are practically never about a term. If you click random you almost never get a term article; I don't think I ever have hit one by clicking random. And if you ever do, you would usually be able to rewrite them. The number of term articles are probably thousands, but the non term articles are definitely millions. Those are probably the kinds of numbers we're talking about. The policy does actually have much broader support than you would suppose by looking at AFDs. A lot of the difficult AFDs are popular articles like swear words, many other dic-style articles get deleted or redirected without a lot of fuss by people who have a sense for what the right thing to do is; they just can't necessarily put it into words.- Wolfkeeper  12:56, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

 * It's true that only a tiny fraction of our articles are about words qua words, but still doesn't mean none, so we should not be expressing things in terms of blanket prohibitions. And yes, some of our existing articles about words are true dicdefs and should be transwikied (I've done that a few times), but there are still articles about words on Wikipedia that go beyond dicdefs.  It takes more than a sentence to say which is which, so rather than go into that detail in this template, I'd stick with what I proposed below: "don't write a dictionary definition".  Somebody who really knows how to write an encyclopedia article will have no problem replacing the template with an actual article, if one can be written.--Father Goose (talk) 06:31, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Proposing: "Remove this message and start an article only after making sure that it has encyclopedic information on the term." -- Neil N   talk to me  05:18, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

 * That doesn't work because "information on the term" suggests it would be an article about the word itself. Here's what I propose: "Please do not replace this message with a dictionary definition of this term, because Wikipedia is not a dictionary."  That's it.  No second sentence.  We need neither a prohibition nor a suggestion to replace the template.--Father Goose (talk) 06:01, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

 * With this template we're fighting what a lot of editors/readers (in many cases deeply) believe, but cannot support; partly/mainly that an encyclopedia article is just a long dictionary article. But it's really, really not. Once you realise that, the next problem is, OK, what is it then? We *want* them to read the policy, because we get higher quality articles. Pointing out that it's not the two most common things that people get wrong is highly desirable.- Wolfkeeper  12:37, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

 * unlike a dictionary the article is not primarily about the term
 * it's not about sheer size.- Wolfkeeper  12:37, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

 * Father Goose, articles on terms are fine provided they have encyclopedic content (thus the wikilink to encyclopedic in my proposed wording) but I think your proposal is better than what we have now. -- Neil N   talk to me  14:12, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

 * What's encyclopedic content? I genuinely don't know what that means for an article about a term. At least I hope I don't. I mean take the term 'rocket', would that include content on things that grow fast as well as go fast??? Plants and ballistic missiles? Covered encyclopedically in one article?- Wolfkeeper  14:18, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you want me to repeat the list of articles that I've given you numerous times so you can look at examples? Here's another one for you: American (word). -- Neil N    talk to me  14:26, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I want you to define what encyclopedic is, in this context. FWIW the wiktionary defines it as:

 * 2. (lexicography) Relating to or containing encyclopedic information rather than only linguistic or lexical  information; about facts and concepts, and not only words; including proper names, biographical and geographical  information and illustrations.

 * I think they've nailed it; and I don't think you throwing a bunch of hand-picked 'examples' around really cuts it.- Wolfkeeper  14:33, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I noticed you skipped definition 1 Of or relating to the characteristics of an encyclopedia; concerning all subjects, having comprehensive information or knowledge. An encyclopedic article about a word treats that word as a concept. -- Neil N    talk to me  14:44, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course all words are concepts as well, but they don't seem to be encyclopedic concepts as definition 2 seems to set down very clearly. And I deliberately left out 1 because it didn't say anything important we can use here. Trying to define encyclopedic in terms of what encyclopedias do within an encyclopedia makes no sense for us here.- Wolfkeeper  15:02, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

So, Wolfkeeper, would you accept it if the second line said "Please do not replace this message with a dictionary definition of this term, because Wikipedia is not a dictionary." and nothing more? One way or another, I'm going to have to request unprotection, and I'd like it if we could do it by agreeing to a mutually acceptable wording.--Father Goose (talk) 22:43, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

 * I think it's vague in a bad way, considering the common myths (which have always been disclaimed in the policy) that dictionary articles are simply a definition, or that dictionary articles are short. The policy is and always has been very clear that this is not what the policy says. If you write that, then you're basically inverting the meaning of the policy; just about any article in Wiktionary would normally be considered long enough to be kept; you're leaving out the critical bits of the policy.- Wolfkeeper  18:29, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

 * The policy is very clear that articles are not primarily about the definition and usages of a term either, and that's not implied or suggested by your suggested sentence.- Wolfkeeper  18:29, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

 * I've unprotected the template but will make no edit for the time being. If I continue to hear no protest from you, I'll implement the change as suggested.--Father Goose (talk) 18:21, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

 * I disagree with templates like this being unprotected.- Wolfkeeper  18:23, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

 * It's still semi-protected, as it was before the dispute. I see no evidence of it ever having been vandalized, and it's not used on articles, being a "soft redirect" type template.  As yet I haven't seen a reason why it needs to be permanently full-protected.

 * So, since you have returned to the discussion, what is your opinion of the "compromise sentence", above?--Father Goose (talk) 18:30, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

 * Oh, wait, you did respond, nevermind, I'll digest your response.--Father Goose (talk) 18:32, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

 * Okay. Well, I failed to link to WINAD the second time I proposed the change, above.  Here's the exact text and formatting I'm suggesting:

"Please do not replace this message with a dictionary definition of this term, because Wikipedia is not a dictionary."

 * By linking to WINAD, that explains all the exact restrictions imposed upon us by terms of the policy. I feel that that is sufficient instruction.--Father Goose (talk) 18:40, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

 * That will tend to destabilise articles that this tag is applied to. People rarely click and read the entire policy. The tag is used where it has been established that the article is about a term, and that it's unlikely that the article can be sensibly rewritten to be about something in the 'is a' sense, rather than 'is a term' sense. Dictionary articles are always about a term, but the distinction is not clear to most people that read the wikipedia and may decide to edit the article. Having the tag actually indicate that there is considered to be a difference is highly desirable.- Wolfkeeper  18:49, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

 * When considered in this context, the new text does not seem sufficient.- Wolfkeeper  18:49, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

 * "That will tend to destabilise articles that this tag is applied to." -- can you point to any evidence of this? It's been my experience that people will not just ignore policy, but they will ignore instruction put right in front of their faces (i.e., this very template).  So adding more instruction will cure nothing.

 * Beyond that, I don't understand what your aims are here.--Father Goose (talk) 19:57, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

 * The template documentation says:

''This template is only for dictionary definitions that currently exist on Wiktionary and which, due to previous re-creations, are likely to be re-created in unencyclopedic form. Do not place it on every possible word. This template is a self-reference and so is part of the Wikipedia project rather than the encyclopaedic content.''

 * So the template is specifically intended to be more informative than normal as to what should be expected. The template is intended to be educating as to the Wikipedias norms for articles are, and whatever anyone says about a few acknowledged exceptions, WP:NAD is very normally expected to be followed.- Wolfkeeper  20:47, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

 * I am still under the impression that the proposed wording meets all of those needs.--Father Goose (talk) 21:06, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

 * The problem is that most people have only a vague idea what the difference between a dictionary and an encyclopedia is, and it's a usability thing that we need to tell them in simple terms what the policy says in the context that this WI template is being used. Clarity is very important, and I fail to see any material way in which what is currently in the template is actually incorrect or negative for the Wikipedia.

 * I also take slight issue with: It's been my experience that people will not just ignore policy, but they will ignore instruction put right in front of their faces, as this seems to fail to assume good faith on the part of people that may decide to try to edit the article. We need to assume that they don't understand the issues, rather than that they are deliberately trying to cause problems for the project, and I don't see that we should assume that they will necessarily click on the policy before clicking on the edit button, that's assuming that they actually know that they don't understand the Wikipedia.- Wolfkeeper  21:20, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Proposed change
After coming across a lot of pages that use the wi template, it seems WP:AWB likes to suggest changes to them that are really not appropriate, such as orphan templates and the like. I would propose that the template also transclude, so that these pages are ignored. Suggestions/thoughts? Avic ennasis  @ 05:44, 9 Elul 5770 / 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I just added an AWB feature request to request that AWB doesn't add the Wikify, dead end, and stub templates. GoingBatty (talk) 21:11, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
 * FYI, this feature will be included in the next version of AWB. GoingBatty (talk) 01:58, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That is awesome. :-D Thanks for that. I'll have to go update my SVN. Avic ennasis  @ 18:21, 30 Adar I 5771 / 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Remove AFT
Please change this template so that it categorizes pages into, in order to remove the Article Feedback Tool from Wiktionary redirect pages. --Yair rand (talk) 22:21, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Done by User:OlEnglish. --Yair rand (talk) 23:01, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Recent edit
I reverted your edit because it broke the template. There was text {{Tq| {{#invoke:Unsubst||$B= }} displayed on all pages that transclude it.  Vanjagenije  (talk)  20:26, 28 May 2017 (UTC) to reply to me 02:50, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Jc86035 (talk) Use {{re|Jc86035}}

Here is an idea...
Delete the pages that this template is transcluded in, and incorporate this into MediaWiki:Noarticletext. Ups and  Downs  (↕) 01:46, 6 August 2017 (UTC) to reply to me 10:14, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
 * This is already done in the article namespace using No article text, but I'm not sure if just deleting the pages is a good idea, since for registered users red links result in the editing window and a different message box ("Before creating an article, please read…"). Jc86035 (talk) Use {{re|Jc86035}}

Link to be changed
Replace WP:WINAD with direct link Wikipedia is not a dictionary. WP:WINAD is a redirect's shortcut to the target page. --2601:646:9280:BA70:F81B:137:871C:645C (talk) 04:28, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

ambox vs fmbox
I switch this template to use ambox designed for notices in the article space over fmbox designed for system messages. This message is not a system message, and should not pose as one. It was especially confusing to see a system message saying "there's no article on this, but there's one at Wiktionary". A natural reaction (I know I had it many times) to this message would be "Alright, then let's create an article on this", but nowhere do you have the "create page" option, not are you prompted with the standard search Wikipedia stuff. Hence the switch to ambox. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:54, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

This template doesn't work well on mobile view
On mobile view, this template will be classified as "issues" and be hidden by default. This means for the readers, it looks just like an empty page. For example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cementitious (Cementitious). --fireattack (talk) 02:49, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes this was an untenable situation, completely inaccessible to mobile users. I have "solved" this by using inline CSS styles to make it look the same as ambox without using the .ambox class itself. I've also made the button to Wiktionary more accessible, for short links it was impossible to find where you should click. – Thjarkur (talk) 20:54, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Feature suggestion
Hi - I'm a Teahouse volunteer, and another editor posted a feature question at Teahouse about having the Wiktionary definition pop up with a mouseover. They were directed to the Village Pump, which I find a little difficult to search and navigate, so the other editor may be frustrated with it also. I wonder if it's simpler to ask if anyone here knows if there's an easy way to change the template so it displays the word's definition, or if you can point me to a related discussion, so as to not reinvent the wheel. Thanks in advance. TimTempleton (talk) (cont)  22:28, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Why is the wikt link displayed all lower-case?
For example, DFTT is an acronym and the wiktionary page is likewise (wikt:DFFT). But Wiktionary redirect on DFFT gives the wiktionary link with the term in all lower-case: "Read the Wiktionary entry on dftt". Why is it displayed with a different capitalization than the enwiki page in which it is displayed? DMacks (talk) 03:43, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Wiktionary is case-sensitive with regards to the first letter, whereas Wikipedia always capitalizes the first letter. Most of the time, the all lower-case version is correct for a wiktionary redirect. Where it is not, you can pass a parameter with the correct capitalization. older ≠ wiser 11:53, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I did not know that about wikt searching. Thanks for the explanation, and finding that it wasn't a named parameter, just positional. DMacks (talk) 14:38, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Article count
I've got a technical question: Are mainspace Wiktionary redirects counted in the article count on Main Page? If not, how is it excluded? Deryck C. 20:20, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Looks like a major error warning
I've just encountered this for the first time, on tapping a "not to be confused with" hatnote pointing to a Wiktionary entry. It was a bit of a shock. What I saw on mobile was basically a full-screen error warning that something was seriously wrong.

Shouldn't it be similar in appearance to an ordinary disambiguation page, but with text mentioning that the entry is on another project? I don't feel that it's usable while it looks like this.

Unless I've misunderstood what it's for, it needs to simply assist users on their way to the right destination without drawing attention to itself, while letting them know that the destination isn't a Wikipedia one. Musiconeologist (talk) 12:53, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

title: Template talk:Wiktionary redirect


text:
Minor White

Minor Martin White (July 9, 1908 – June 24, 1976) was an American photographer, theoretician, critic, and educator. He had an intense interest in how people viewed and thought about photographs and a personal vision guided by several spiritual and intellectual philosophies.

From 1937 until his death in 1976, White made thousands of black-and-white and color photographs of landscapes, people, and abstract subject matter. They showed technical mastery and a strong sense of light and shadow. He taught many classes, workshops, and retreats on photography, including at schools like the California School of Fine Arts, the Rochester Institute of Technology, and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and his home.

He lived much of his life as a closeted gay man, not expressing his sexuality out of fear of losing his teaching jobs. Some of his most compelling images are figure studies of men he taught or with whom had relationships. He helped start the photography magazine Aperture, considered the only periodical produced for, and by, photographers practicing the medium as a fine art. He served as its editor for many years.

After his death in 1976, White was hailed as one of America's greatest photographers.

Early life: 1908–1937
White was born in Minneapolis, Minnesota. He was the only child of Charles Henry White, a bookkeeper, and Florence May Martin White, a dressmaker. His first name was the same as his paternal great, great-grandfather. His middle name was his mother's maiden name.

During his early years, he spent a great deal of his time with his maternal grandparents and enjoyed playing in their large garden, later influencing his decision to study botany in college. His grandfather, George Martin, an amateur photographer, gave White his first camera in 1915. From 1916 to 1922, White's parents went through a series of separations. During those periods, White and his mother lived with her parents. His parents reconciled in 1922, remaining together until they finally divorced in 1929.

When White graduated from high school, he was aware of his latent homosexuality. In 1927, he wrote about his feelings for men in his diary, which his parents read without his permission. After this, he left home for the summer in what he called a brief crisis period. In the fall, he returned home and entered the University of Minnesota, majoring in botany. His parents never spoke of his homosexuality again.

By 1931, when he should have graduated, he did not meet the requirements for a science degree and left school for a year. During this time, he became very interested in writing and started a life-long personal journal he called "Memorable Fancies." He journaled poems, intimate thoughts about his life and sexuality struggles, excerpts from letters he wrote others, occasional diary-like entries about daily life, and later, extensive notes about his photography. He continued with the journal until 1970, when most of his energy was directed to teaching.

In 1932, White re-entered the university, studied botany and writing, and graduated in 1934. The next semester, he took some graduate botany classes. After six months, he decided he lacked the interest to become botanist. He spent the next two years doing odd jobs and exploring his writing skills. During this time, he created a set of 100 sonnets on the theme of sexual love, his first attempt at grouping his creative output.

Launching a career: 1937–1945
In late 1937, White decided to move to Seattle. He purchased a 35mm Argus camera and hopped a bus to his intended destination. After stopping in Portland, Oregon, he decided to stay there. For the next two and a half years, he lived at the Portland YMCA and explored photography in depth. He taught his first photography class at the YMCA to a small group of young adults. He also joined the Oregon Camera Club and learned how photographers discuss their craft and work.

In 1938, White was offered a job as photographer for the Oregon Art Project, funded by the Works Progress Administration. One assignment was to photograph historic buildings in downtown Portland before they were demolished for a new riverfront development. These included Arches of the Dodd Building, which featured a young male prostitute standing in the shadow of the building and pointing at his crotch. During the same period, he took publicity photos for the Portland Civic Theater, documenting their plays and taking portraits of the actors and actresses.

In 1940, White was hired to teach photography at the La Grande Art Center in eastern Oregon. He quickly became immersed in his work, taught classes three days a week, lectured on art to local students, reviewed exhibitions for the local newspaper, and delivered a weekly radio broadcast about activities at the Art Center. In his spare time, he traveled throughout the region taking photographs of the landscape, farms, and small town buildings. He also wrote his first article on photography, "When is Photography Creative?," published two years later in American Photography magazine.

White resigned from the Art Center in late 1941 and returned to Portland, intending to start a commercial photography business. That year, the Museum of Modern Art in New York accepted three of his photographs for inclusion in its "Image of Freedom" exhibition. At the exhibition’s close, the museum purchased all three prints, marking the first time his images entered a public collection. The following year the Portland Art Museum gave White his first one-man show, exhibiting four series of photos he took in eastern Oregon. He wrote in his journal that, with that show, "a period came to a close."

In April 1942, White was drafted into the United States Army and hid his homosexuality. Before departing Portland, he left most of his negatives of historic Portland buildings with the Oregon Historical Society. White spent the first two years of World War II in Hawaii and in Australia. Later, he became Chief of the Divisional Intelligence Branch in the southern Philippines. He rarely photographed during this time, choosing to write poetry and extended verse. Three of his longer poems, "Elegies," "Free Verse for the Freedom of Speech," and "Minor Testament," addressed his war experiences and the bonds of men under extreme conditions. Later, he used text from "Minor Testament" in his photographic sequence Amputations. During the war, White became interested in Catholicism, converting on Easter of 1943.

After the war, White traveled to New York City and enrolled in Columbia University. While in New York, he met and became close friends with Beaumont and Nancy Newhall, who worked in the newly formed photography department at the Museum of Modern Art. Through them, White was offered a job as a museum photographer. He spent many hours talking with Nancy Newhall, who he said educated him and strongly influenced his thinking and direction in photography.

Mid-career: 1946–1964
In February 1946, White had the first of several meetings with photographer Alfred Stieglitz in New York. White had read Stieglitz's various writings on photography and understood some of his theories. Through their conversations, White came to adopt Stieglitz's theory of equivalence, where the image represents something other than the subject matter, and his use of sequencing pictorial imagery. White wrote in his journal that he expressed his doubt that he was ready to become a serious photographer at one of their meetings. Stieglitz asked him, “Have you ever been in love?" White answered, “Yes.” Stieglitz replied, "Then you can photograph."

During this time, White met and became friends with some of the major photographers of the time, including Berenice Abbott, Edward Steichen, Paul Strand, Edward Weston, and Harry Callahan. Steichen, who was director of the Museum of Modern Art’s photography department, offered White a curatorial position. Instead, White accepted Ansel Adams’s offer to assist him at the newly created photography department at the California School of Fine Arts (CSFA) in San Francisco. White moved to San Francisco in July, living in the same house as Adams for several years. Adams taught White his Zone System method of exposing and developing negatives, which White used extensively in his work. He wrote extensively about it, published a book and taught the exposure and development method as well as the practice of (pre)-visualization to his students.

While in San Francisco, White became close friends with Edward Weston in Carmel. For the remainder of his life, Weston had a profound influence on White's photography and philosophy. Later he said "...Stieglitz, Weston and Ansel all gave me exactly what I needed at that time. I took one thing from each: technique from Ansel, the love of nature from Weston, and from Stieglitz the affirmation that I was alive and I could photograph." Over the next several years, White spent a great deal of time photographing at Point Lobos, the site of some of Weston's most famous images, approaching many of the same subjects with entirely different viewpoints and creative purposes.

By mid-1947, White was the primary teacher at CSFA and had developed a three-year course that emphasized personal expressive photography. Over the next six years, he enlisted some of the best photographers of the time as teachers, including Imogen Cunningham, Lisette Model, and Dorothea Lange. During this time, White created his first grouping of photos and text in a non-narrative form, a sequence he called Amputations. Although it was scheduled to be shown at the California Palace of the Legion of Honor, the exhibition was canceled because White refused to allow the photographs to be shown without text, which included some wording that expressed his ambiguity about America's post-war patriotism.

The next three years were some of White's most creatively prolific. In addition to taking dozens of land- and waterscapes, he took dozens of photographs that evolved into some of his most compelling sequences. Three in particular showed his continuing struggles with his sexuality. Song Without Words, The Temptation of St. Anthony Is Mirrors, and Fifth Sequence/Portrait of a Young Man as Actor all depict "the emotional turmoil he feels over his love and desire for men."

In 1949, White purchased a small Zeiss Ikonta camera and began a series of urban street photographs. Over the next four years, he took nearly 6,000 images, all inspired by his newfound interest in the poetry of Walt Whitman. The project, which he called City of Surf, included photographs of San Francisco's Chinatown, the docks, people on the streets, and various parades and fairs around town.

The period of 1951–52 is one of the formative times in White's career. He participated in a Conference on Photography at the Aspen Institute, where the idea of creating a new journal of photography was discussed by Ansel Adams, Dorothea Lange, Beaumont and Nancy Newhall, Frederick Sommer and others. Soon after, Aperture magazine was founded by many of these same individuals. White volunteered for and was approved as editor, and the first issue appeared in April 1952. Aperture quickly became one of the most influential magazines about photography, and White remained as editor until 1975.

Near the end of 1952, White's father, from whom he had been estranged for many years, died in Long Beach, California. In 1953, Walter Chappell introduced White to the I Ching, an ancient Chinese book of philosophy and divination. White continued to be influenced by and refer to this text throughout the rest of his life. He was especially intrigued by the concepts of yin and yang, in which apparently opposite or contrary forces may be conceived as complementary. Later that same year, a reorganization at CSFS resulted in a reduction in White's classroom time, and he began to think about an employment change. Concurrently, Beaumont Newhall recently had become the curator at the George Eastman House in Rochester, New York. He invited White to work with him as a curatorial assistant. He exhibited September 28 – November 3, 1954, at Limelight Gallery in New York and was included in that gallery's Great Photographs at the end of that year. Over the next three years White organized three themed exhibitions that demonstrated his particular interests: Camera Consciousness, The Pictorial Image and Lyrical and Accurate. In 1955 he joined the faculty at the Rochester Institute of Technology (RIT), where he taught one day a week.

White's photographic output declined during this time due to his teaching and editorial work, but he continued to produce enough images that by the end of 1955 he had created a new sequence, Sequence 10/Rural Cathedrals, which included landscape images from upstate New York that were shot on regular and infrared film. By 1955 White was fully engaged in teaching, having been appointed as instructor at the new four-year photography program at RIT as well as conducting classes and workshops at Ohio University and Indiana University. Walter Chappell moved to Rochester later in the year to work at the George Eastman House. Chappell engaged White in long discussions about various Eastern religions and philosophies. White began practicing Zen meditation and adopted a Japanese style of decoration in his house. Over the next two years the discussions between White and Chappell metamorphosed into lengthy discourses about the writing and philosophy of George Gurdjieff. White gradually became an adherent of Gurdjieff's teachings and started to incorporate Gurdjieff's thinking into the design and implementation of his workshops. Gurdjieff's concepts, for White, were not just intellectual exercises but guides to experience, and they greatly influenced much of his approach to teaching and photography throughout the rest of his life.

During this same period White began making his first color images. Although he is better known for his black-and-white photography, he produced many color photographs. His archive contains nearly 9,000 35mm transparencies taken between 1955 and 1975.

In 1959 White mounted a large exhibition of 115 photos of his Sequence 13/Return to the Bud at the George Eastman House. It was his largest exhibition to date. It later traveled to the Portland Art Museum in Oregon. White was invited to teach a 10-days', all-expense-paid workshop in Portland to accompany the exhibition. He took advantage of the funding to photograph landscapes and did nature studies across the country. From his experience in Portland he developed the idea for a full-time residential workshop in Rochester in which students would learn through both formal sessions and, following a combination of thinking from Gurdjieff and from Zen, through an understanding gained by the discipline of such tasks as household chores and early morning workouts. He would continue this style of residential teaching until he died. In the early 1960s White also studied hypnosis and incorporated the practice into some of his teachings as a way of helping students experience photographs.

White continued to teach extensively both privately and at RIT for the next several years. During this time he traveled across the U.S. in the summers taking photographs along the way. In his journal he referred to himself during this period as "The Wanderer," which had both literal and metaphorical meanings due to his search for understanding life. In 1962 he met Michael Hoffman, who became a friend, colleague and, later, assumed the editorship of Aperture magazine. White later named Hoffman to be the executor of his will.

Late career: 1965–1974
In 1965 White was invited to help design a newly formed program in visual arts at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) in Cambridge, Massachusetts, near Boston. After being appointed as a Visiting Professor, White moved to the Boston area and purchased a 12-room house in suburban Arlington so he could increase the size of his residential workshops for selected students. Soon after moving to the Boston area, he completed a different kind of sequence called Slow Dance, which he would later integrate into his teachings. He continued to explore how people understand and interpret photography and began to incorporate techniques of Gestalt psychology into his teachings. To help his students experience the meaning of "equivalence," he started requiring them to draw certain subjects as well as photograph them.

White began to experience periodic discomfort in his chest in 1966, and his doctor diagnosed his ailment as angina. His symptoms continued throughout the rest of his life, leading him to intensify his study of spiritual matters and meditation. He turned to astrology in an attempt to increase his understanding about life, and his interest in it became so significant that he required all of his current and prospective students to have their horoscopes completed. By this point in his life White's unorthodox teaching methods were well established, and students who went through his workshops were both mystified and enlightened by the experience. One student, John Loori, who later became abbot of Zen Mountain Monastery, said, "I really wanted to learn to see the way he did, to capture my subjects in a way that didn't render them lifeless and two-dimensional. I didn't realize that Minor was teaching us exactly that: not only to see images, but to feel them, smell them, taste them. He was teaching us how to be photography."

White began writing the text for Mirrors, Messages, Manifestations, which was the first monograph of his photographs, in late 1966, and three years later the book was published by Aperture. It included 243 of his photographs and text, including poems, notes from his journal and other writings. Peter Bunnell, who was one of White's early students and then Curator of Photography at the Museum of Modern Art, wrote a lengthy biography of White for the book. During this same time White completed Sequence 1968, a series of landscape images from his recent travels. During the next several years White conceived of and directed four major themed photography exhibitions at MIT, starting with "Light7" in 1968 and followed by "Be-ing without Clothes" in 1970, "Octave of Prayer" in 1972 and "Celebrations" in 1974. Anyone could submit images for the shows, and White spent a great deal of time personally reviewing all of the submissions and selecting the final images.

White continued to teach extensively and make his own photographs even though his health was declining. He devoted more and more time to his writing and began a long text he called "Consciousness in Photography and the Creative Audience," in which he referred to his 1965 sequence Slow Dance and advanced the idea that certain states of heightened awareness were necessary to truly read a photograph and understand its meaning. To complete this work he applied for and received a Guggenheim Fellowship in 1970, and Consciousness in Photography and the Creative Audience became required reading for a new course he taught at MIT called "Creative Audience." in 1971 he traveled to Puerto Rico to explore more of his color photography, and in 1974 and 1975 he journeyed to Peru to teach and to further his own Gurdjieff studies.

In 1975 White traveled to England to lecture at the Victoria and Albert Museum and to teach classes at various colleges. He continued on a hectic travel schedule for several weeks, then flew directly to the University of Arizona in Tucson to take part in a symposium there. When he returned to Boston after nearly six weeks of travel, he suffered a heart attack and was hospitalized for several weeks. After this White's focus turned even more inward, and he photographed very little. He spent much of his time with his student Abe Frajndlich, who made a series of situational portraits of White around his home and in his garden. A few months before his death White published a short article in Parabola magazine called "The Diamond Lens of Fable" in which he associated himself with Gilgamesh, Jason and King Arthur, all heroes of old tales about lifelong quests.

On June 24, 1976, White died of a second heart attack while working at his home. He bequeathed all of his personal archives and papers, along with a large collection of his photographs, to Princeton University. He left his house to Aperture so they could continue the work he started there.

Retrospective
Peter Bunnell studied photography under White at the RIT in the late 1950s. Originally intending to pursue fashion photography, it was his exposure to White that drew him to reconsider photography as vehicle for personal artistic expression. White became a mentor to Bunnell and recruited him to join the staff of Aperture magazine. Bunnell gradually transitioned from being a photographer to studying the medium and its history, but his interest in – and friendship with – White endured until White’s passing in 1976.

Bunnell became the acknowledged expert on White’s work, and his 1989 book Minor White: The Eye That Shapes still stands as the most complete single source of information on the photographer.

Equivalence
White was greatly influenced by Stieglitz's concept of "equivalence," which White interpreted as allowing photographs to represent more than their subject matter. He wrote "when a photograph functions as an Equivalent, the photograph is at once a record of something in front of the camera and simultaneously a spontaneous symbol. (A 'spontaneous symbol' is one which develops automatically to fill the need of the moment. A photograph of the bark of a tree, for example, may suddenly touch off a corresponding feeling of roughness of character within an individual.)"

In his later life he often made photographs of rocks, surf, wood and other natural objects that were isolated from their context, so that they became abstract forms. He intended these to be interpreted by the viewer as something more than what they actually present. According to White, "When a photographer presents us with what to him is an Equivalent, he is telling us in effect, 'I had a feeling about something and here is my metaphor of that feeling.'...What really happened is that he recognized an object or series of forms that, when photographed, would yield an image with specific suggestive powers that can direct the viewer into a specific and known feeling, state, or place within himself."

In the introduction to his Fourth Sequence (1950), White wrote:

"While rocks were photographed, the subject of the sequence is not rocks; while symbols seem to appear, they are barely pointers to significance. The meaning appears in the mood they raise in the beholder; and the flow of the sequence eddies in the river of his associations as he passes from picture to picture. The rocks are only the objects upon which the significance is spread like sheets on the ground to dry."

Not everyone agreed with or understood White's philosophy. Some of White's abstract images "have an indeterminacy that forestalls any conventional response." One critic wrote "Without a capacity to see in rocks some glimmer of essential form, as Weston did, or in clouds some hint of a universal life force, as Stieglitz did, one cannot understand White's pictures....One gets the impression that White did not develop as an artist in a linear sense so much as he oscillated between conflicting poles."

Sequences
In the mid-1940s White began to articulate a philosophy about the importance of how his photographs are presented to the viewer. He was influenced initially by Stieglitz, who in his teaching emphasized that photographs shown in a structured content may support each other and may create a total statement that is more complex and meaningful that the individual images by themselves. When White began working as a photographer at the Museum of Modern Art in 1945 he became friends with Nancy Newhall, who was organizing a retrospective of Edward Weston's photographs for the museum. Newhall had a gift for creating highly distinct groupings of images, and White said later that her installation of the Weston exhibit was a revelation to him.

For the rest of his life he spent a great deal of time grouping and regrouping his photographs into specific sets of images that varied in number from 10 to more than 100 prints. He described what he called a sequence as a "cinema of stills" that he felt would impart a "feeling-state" created by both the photographer and the personality of the individual viewer.

In his early sequences (through 1952) he included various poems and other texts with his images. As he evolved his thinking about sequences, he gradually stopped using texts. At the same time many of his images became more and more abstract. Although he felt strongly about the particular groupings of his images, in his early sequences he purposely did not prescribe a specific order for how they should be presented. He said he wanted his sequences to be subjective interpretations, and as such he wanted viewers to gain insights into themselves by allowing them to contemplate his work as they saw fit. This concept was limited to those viewers who were part of his workshops and teachings, where they could handle the prints individually rather than see them in a gallery.

Later, as he became more interested in anthropology and myth, he began to experiment with how individual images influenced a viewer by how they were presented. In a work he called Totemic Sequence, composed of 10 photographs, he included the same image as both the opening and the closing picture. The last picture is the first picture turned upside down. White felt that this change illustrated the simultaneous reality and unreality in a photograph. The title he gave to the first image was "Power Spot."

White wrote extensively about his thought about sequences, both in his journal and in articles. In his journal he wrote "The photographs in a Sequence or Constellation may be compared to a dance or theme. The major points of the whole are stated and restated with variations until the very last member of the audience has encountered it or them." He also wrote "Sequence now means that the joy of photographing in the light of the sun is balanced by the joy of editing in the light of the mind."

During his lifetime White created or planned about 100 groups of his photographs, including sequences (with multiple versions), series and portfolios. Many were named simply "Sequence" followed by a number, but for several he added artistic titles that reflected his ideas that photographs represent more than their obvious subject matter.

Some of his major sequences are:
 * Song Without Words (1947)
 * Second Sequence: Amputations (1947)
 * The Temptation of St. Anthony Is Mirrors (1948). This sequence is White's most personal body of work, composed entirely of photos of a model at CSFA named Tom Murphy. The 32 images include intimate portraits and figure studies, many of which showed Murphy's frontal full-nude body. At the time it was illegal to either exhibit or publish images that explicitly showed male genitals, and if White would have let it be known that he had taken the photographs he would have been exposed as a homosexual and subjected to harassment and loss of his job. He mounted and bound two copies of the photos into small, hand-made books, gave one to Murphy and kept the other copy for himself. Many of the photos in this sequence were never published during his lifetime, and the complete sequence was exhibited for the first time only in 2014 at the J. Paul Getty Museum in Los Angeles.
 * Sequence 11 / The Young Man as Mystic (1955)
 * Sequence 13 / Return to the Bud (1959)
 * Sequence 16 / The Sound of One Hand (1960)
 * Sequence 17 / Out of My love for You I Will Try to Give You Back Yourself (1963)
 * Slow Dance (1965). White stepped outside of his usual methods in creating this sequence, which consists of 80 color slides intended to be seen on dual projectors. It was inspired by his interest in movement as interpreted through Gurdjieff's "rhythmic rituals."
 * Totemic Sequence (1974)

Quotations

 * "At first glance a photograph can inform us. At second glance it can reach us."
 * "Be still with yourself until the object of your attention affirms your presence."
 * "Camera and I have gotten into some eye pursuit of intensified consciousness."
 * "Equivalency functions on the assumption that the following equation is factual: Photograph + Person Looking Mental Image."
 * "In becoming a photographer I am only changing medium. The essential core of both verse and photography is poetry."
 * My own place in this thing called "photography"? Lately it has come to my attention that perhaps I have a place in it, not entirely held by others.
 * "One should not only photograph things for what they are but for what else they are."
 * "When the photograph is a mirror of the man and the man is a mirror of the world, then Spirit might take over."
 * "Everything has been photographed. Accept this. Photograph things better."
 * "No matter how slow the film, Spirit always stands still long enough for the photographer It has chosen."

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Minor White


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David Raksin

David Raksin (August 4, 1912 – August 9, 2004) was an American composer who was noted for his work in film and television. With more than 100 film scores and 300 television scores to his credit, he became known as the "Grandfather of Film Music.".

Biography

David Raksin was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, United States, to Jewish parents (of Russian heritage). His father was an orchestra conductor. Raksin played professionally in dance bands while attending Central High School of Philadelphia. He went on to study composition with Harl McDonald at the University of Pennsylvania, and later with Isadore Freed in New York and Arnold Schoenberg in Los Angeles. In New York, Raksin worked as an arranger for Harms/Chappell.

One of his earliest film assignments was as assistant to Charlie Chaplin in the composition of the score for Modern Times (1936). He is perhaps best remembered for his score for Laura (1944). The theme music for "Laura", with lyrics by Johnny Mercer, became a major hit. During Raksin's lifetime, "Laura" was reportedly the second most-recorded song in history after "Stardust" by Hoagy Carmichael and Mitchell Parish.

Raksin's theme song, "The Bad and the Beautiful" (also called "Love is For the Very Young") for the 1953 film The Bad and the Beautiful (1953) was also a hit, although not as popular as "Laura". Raksin insisted that the song be released as an instrumental, because he had resented having to split the proceeds from "Laura" with a lyricist. Raksin's theme for "The Bad and the Beautiful" was initially disliked by the film's director Vincente Minnelli and producer John Houseman, but was saved from rejection by the intervention of Adolph Green and Betty Comden, who both liked it. The theme has since been praised by Stephen Sondheim, Leonard Rosenman, Richard Rodney Bennett, and Alexander Courage. Sondheim reportedly called it "one of the best themes ever written in films."

Raksin also scored the 1958 film Separate Tables, for which he earned an Academy Award nomination.

In the 1960s, Raksin wrote the theme for (and scored the pilot of) the medical drama television series Ben Casey. Later in life, Raksin taught at the University of Southern California and the University of California, Los Angeles.

Raksin died in 2004, aged 92. At the time of his death, it was announced that Raksin had completed his autobiography, titled If I Say So Myself. The book was eventually published under the title The Bad and the Beautiful: My Life in a Golden Age of Film Music.

In 2012, he was named for a Lifetime Achievement Award for a Past Film Composer.

His son Alex is a Pulitzer Prize-winning editorial writer for the Los Angeles Times.

Select film and TV scores

 * The Day After (1983)
 * The Ghost of Flight 401 (1978)
 * Glass Houses (1972)
 * What's the Matter with Helen? (1971)
 * The Over-the-Hill Gang Rides Again (1970)
 * Will Penny (1968)
 * A Big Hand for the Little Lady (1966)
 * Love Has Many Faces (1965)
 * Sylvia (1965)
 * Invitation to a Gunfighter (1964)
 * The Patsy (1964)
 * Two Weeks in Another Town (1962)
 * Too Late Blues (1961)
 * Night Tide (1961)
 * Pay or Die (1960)
 * Al Capone (1959)
 * Separate Tables (1958)
 * Twilight for the Gods (1958)
 * Until They Sail (1957)
 * Gunsight Ridge (1957)
 * Man on Fire (1957)
 * The Vintage (1957)
 * Bigger Than Life (1956)
 * Hilda Crane (1956)
 * Jubal (1956)
 * Seven Wonders of the World (1955) (with Sol Kaplan, Jerome Moross, Emil Newman)
 * The Big Combo (1955)
 * Suddenly (1954)
 * Apache (1954)
 * The Unicorn in the Garden (1953)
 * The Bad and the Beautiful (1952)
 * Madeline (cartoon) (1952)
 * Carrie (1952)
 * Pat and Mike (1952)
 * The Man with a Cloak (1951)
 * Across the Wide Missouri (1951)
 * Kind Lady (1951)
 * The Next Voice You Hear... (1950)
 * The Magnificent Yankee (1950)
 * Whirlpool (1950)
 * Force of Evil (1948)
 * Apartment for Peggy (1948)
 * Fury at Furnace Creek (1948)
 * Daisy Kenyon (1947)
 * Forever Amber (1947)
 * The Secret Life of Walter Mitty (1947)
 * Smoky (1946)
 * Fallen Angel (1945)
 * Laura (1944)
 * Tampico (1944)
 * City Without Men (1943)
 * The Men in Her Life (1941)
 * The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes (1939)
 * Stanley and Livingstone (1939)
 * The Hound of the Baskervilles (1939)
 * Modern Times (arranger) (1936)

Work on Broadway

 * Thumbs Up! (1934) - revue - co-orchestrator
 * Parade (1935) - revue - co-orchestrator
 * At Home Abroad (1935) - revue - co-orchestrator
 * New Faces of 1936 (1936) - revue - co-orchestrator
 * If the Shoe Fits (1946) - musical - composer
 * Dream (1997) - revue - featured songwriter for "Laura"

Interviews

 * Streaming audio interview with Raksin, by Charles Amirkhanian, January 28, 1988
 * David Raksin interview by Bruce Duffie, May 1988

title: David Raksin


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Category:Peanuts (comic strip)

These are articles related to the Peanuts comic strip.

title: Category:Peanuts (comic strip)