text:
Talk:Kingdom of Mutapa

[Untitled]
A much better time frame should be established... --Joy [shallot]   17:58, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * The sentence: "Johannesburg is stilln often referred to a the "city of gold" and in fact it's name in nearly all indigenous languages translates as exactly that (compare Gauteng in Sotho and Egoli in Zulu)." is absolutely nonsence if related to Munhumutapa. You can't related an expression from the 19th and 20th centrury to the medivial age, where this expression did not exist. To win gold in Witwatersrand needs a technological knowledge, which could not exist in that time in Africa. - compare it with the German version here in Wikipedia.

Maps
What, no maps? ;> I wonder where the best sources of GIS maps is for pre-european african states.

Pazouzou 05:11, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Spelling of Empire name for article?
I think that we should choose one spelling of the name and stick with it to simplify things.

--Thefirechild 12:37, 14 August 2006 (UTC).

Please, this is garbage. It was not an Empire. It was a an area where a particular people(s)lived with a very modest 'city' built largely by Arab slave-labourers who had stonemasonry knowledge. There was no central administration or anything remotely like it, no literature or anything else. For 1500 in the rest of the world that is absurd. Don't make such futile attempts to give credit to this lot when it is undeserving. Revisionist history should be kept out of this project. 81.131.57.137 09:22, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Please delete this comment, it WAS an empire, a magnificent one at that, racial prejudice has completely, and I mean completely, left Shona culture and history in total shambles, the great ancient sites and spiritual grounds got robbed by foreigners, the researchers sent to the Hreat Zimbabwe plateau gave false history in their research articles until much later when a white lady and a team of all female archaeologists got the story of Ancient Zimbabwe straight, and it wasn’t easy- their research got rejected several times, because the westerners wanted to believe that it WAS NOT black people that built such a massive kingdom. I truly urge anyone that wants the truth to avidly search and research and contribute to more information about this magnificent palace. I heard there’s an animated series about monomotapa that’s gonna be released in a year or so, should be a great way to honour the great ancestors. 105.186.164.8 (talk) 04:27, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Your claim that it was "built largerly by Arab slave-labourers" is complete and utter baseless conjecture. PROVE IT, or don't comment.

 * Given that older descriptions of Great Zimbabwe and other African archaeological sites have been made in environments of institutionalised racism, disregarding newer research as “revisionism” would be absurd. However, in order to maintain NPOV it would be good if the article covered more perspectives, current and historical. Incidentally, Wikipedia defines masonry as “the building of structures from individual units laid in and bound together by mortar“; Great Zimbabwe (and the two hundred or so lesser zimbabwes) are entirely dry stone. -Ahruman 12:11, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Clarification of lists
The article has two lists of "Mwenes or Monomatapas." It looks like those are lists of names of individuals, but I'm just guessing because the article doesn't say what "Mwene" or "Monomatapa" means. Is it some kind of title borne by the rulers of the empire? If so, does "Monomatapa Empire" basically mean something like "Empire of the Emperor"? Someone please clarify. PubliusFL 06:53, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Clarified. --Ghirla-трёп- 21:14, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Much clearer, thank you! PubliusFL 14:25, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Prince Nyatsimba Mutota, who was bent on extending the boundaries of the kingdom, took his court north and established his capital at Gota Hill just south of the Zambezi River. He named it Chitaka-Changonwa. From there he systematically waged war against all those who would not submit to his rule. The conquered tribes named him Wilayatu ‘l Mu’anamutapah; or the Lord of the Plundered lands.
 * He took their curse as his praise name and was thereafter known as the Mutapa.( Research done by a lady from South Africa called Cassandra Puren - wrote research based off of Dr Abrahams research of Great Zimbabwe) 105.186.164.8 (talk) 04:33, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Here is my analysis of "mwenemutapa" and "munhumutapa". I am a first language speaker of the Shona language of Zimbabwe.

"mwene", in the Karanga dialect of the Shona language of Zimbabwe, means "the owner". "ku-tapa" means "to capture or to conquer" whereas "ku-tapwa" means "to be conquered or captured". "mu-tapa" means "the one who conquers or captures" and "mu-tapwa" means "the conquered one" or "the captured one". Synthesising the two gives either "mwene wemutapa", which means "the owner of conquerors", or "mwene wemu-tapwa", which means "the owner of the conquered ones".

"Monomotapa" is a foreign rendering and does not mean anything to us Shona speakers ... so I will not bother analysing it.

"Munhumutapa" is a contraction of "munhu mu-tapa". "munhu" means the same as "umuntu" in Zulu and Ndebele and means "a person" in a gender neutral sense derived from the concept of "unhu" in Shona or "ubuntu" in Zulu/Ndebele. BTW the term "unhu" or "ubuntu" cannot be easily translated into English and is not exclusively a ZULU/South Aftican concept as the Ubuntu Linux people seem to claim - its a concept that spans and permeates all cultures of Sub-Saharan African cultures including Shona culture. "munhu mutapa" literally translates to "to be a person (munhu) is to be (mu-) a conqueror (-tapa)". This give us a totally different meaning to the one above. This is essentially due to the difference in meaning between "mwene" (owner) and "munhu" (a person who embodies "ubuntu" or "unhu").

"Ravager of the Lands" is not a correct translation of either Mwenemutapa or Munhumutapa. The idea was not to "ravage" the lands and the peoples it was more the idea of conquering for the purpose of bringing the lands and peoples under the dominion of the conqueror.

Shona names ALWAYS HAVE A MEANING in the Shona language. Shona names are always an embodiment of history. The word "ravage" translates to the Shona word "kuparadza". "ravager of lands" translates to "muparadzi wematunhu", which contracts to "Muparadzidunhu" and this is nowhere near "munhumutapa" or "mwenemutapa". Whoever contributed the translation that involve any notion of "ravaging" does not understand Shona language and is certainly not a native speaker of the language.

To answer the above question: As to which one is correct, I cannot tell at this point. Wikipedia might have to include these two and DISCARD "monomotapa", which has no meaning in the Shona language, being a foreign rendering. -- Mwana wevhu 18:52, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "Mwenemutapa Empire" means "empire of the owner of the conquerors"
 * "Munhumutapa Empire" means "empire of the one who conquers"

ok, it looks like the history section was written by a 5 year old. for example, "great king" is an opinionated statement, and has no place in an encyclopedia like entry. second of all, I know there were arguments about the spelling of "monomotapa", but the article entry should not clarify that "monomotapa" is in fact the correct spelling. also, the general tone of the history section sounds like it was written as a lower school history paper. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.199.162.154 (talk) 21:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Racism and White Supremacism
I have deleted the following statement:

"African folklore has it that this polity was preceded and loosely based on the empire of "the strange ones", reported to have had white skins, red hair and green eyes."

The above statement has no real foundation except the usual racist and white supremacist and evil machinations. Being an African and a Shona person borne and bred at and around Great Zimbabwe and whose ancestors have lived near this ancient city, I am not aware of any African folklore that makes this preposterous claim. The only time in Zimbabwean folklore that we encounter white skinned people is long after the establishment of and not at the inception of the Mwenemutapa Empire. In our folklore, Zimbabwean folklore, there is also no notion of "the strange ones" or their role in shaping the people's history. Also, in Zimbabwean folklore, there exists no description of a people with the attributes given in this statement. Whoever contributed this statement does not know Zimbabwean folklore. Furthermore, white people in Zimbabwean folkore do not exist as rulers up until 1890 when Rhodes and his Pioneer Column appeared. Besides, why talk of "African folklore" when you can be specific. The only folklore that would be directly relevant and worth considering with respect to the Munhumutapa/Mwenemutapa Empire is specifically Shona Folklore of Zimbabwe and part of Mozambique. -- Mwana wevhu 19:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Or long before the Shona ever showed up. Not British or Afrikaner "white people", but the ones who were the actual "Monomotapa". By the way, 'Great Zimbabwe' wasn't even part of yhis so-called "empire". It was a trading post, where the actual "Monomotapa" would trade with Portuguese, Somalian and Malaysian traders, who weren't allowed inside the boundaries of the actual area. After the actual area declined (and there's another whole reason for that), the trading post declined, and was abandoned. And then, centuries later, the Shona, then the British showed up. It's preposterous to claim that just because a peole are in a majority in an area now, that anything in that land must have been built by their ancestors. Or, for that matter, that becausepeople are in the majority in a region today,that that means they must be indigenous. Using that 'logic' "white people" must be the indigenous people of Australia and New Zealand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.86.143.140 (talk) 05:48, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Well the Racist, White Supremacist appears to be an amateur black Historian from Harare who has a special interest in the Shona. The original source is uncited but the content that it comes from 'appears' more detailed and authoritative than this article. According to the author -
 * "The Empire of Great Zimbabwe (also called Munhu mu tapa, Mwene Mutapa, Manhumutapa, Monomotapa, Mutapa, all meaning "Ravager of the Lands") was a medieval kingdom (c. 1450-1629) which used to stretch between the Zambezi and Limpopo rivers of Southern Africa in the modern states of Zimbabwe and Mozambique. Its capital city was the Great Zimbabwe.
 * The empire is thought to have been established by the Rozvi whose descendants include the modern-day Shona people. African folklore has it that this polity was preceded and loosely based on the empire of "the strange ones", reported to have had white skins, red hair and green eyes. The founder of the ruling dynasty was Mbire, a semimythical potentate active in the 14th century. Great Zimbabwe reached its zenith around the 1440s on the virtue of its brisk trade in gold conducted with Arabs via the seaport of Sofala south of the Zambezi delta. The fabrics of Gujarat were traded for gold along the coast.
 * By the beginning of the 16th century, the pressures from European and Arab traders began to change the balance of power in the region. Mbire's purported great-great-grandson Nyatsimba was the first ruler to assume the title of the "Ravager of the Lands", which became hereditary among his descendants. It was he who moved the capital from Great Zimbabwe to Mount Fura by the Zambezi."
 * It's lacking sources but I was momentarily interested in Greater Zimbabwe a while back and I too can recall the inhabitants of Greater Zimbabwe being described as not Shona by the local Shona peoples when first asked about it by Europeans. I'll seek the original source. 2001:8003:70F5:2400:65CA:C8D1:782C:10D0 (talk) 12:40, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Mutapa and Great Zimbabwe the same or not?
Going through my old world history textbook (World History: Patterns of Interaction by Dr. Roger B. Beck, Linda Black, Larry S. Krieger, Dr. Phillip C. Naylor, and Dahia Ibo Shabaka) the book states that Great Zimbabwe was in great decline by the begining of the 15th century and completely abandoned by 1450 while the seperate Mutapa Empire established by one Mutota conquering the lands formerly controlled by Great Zimbabwe. Does anyone hav information on this contradiction? --Harel Newman 23:59, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree, I think the article needs to be changed as Great Zimbabwe was abandoned sometime in the 1400s. I recall that Goncalo de Silveira was at the court of the Mwenemutapa in what is now Mashonaland North around 1560 and when Antonio Fernandes explored the Manicaland around 50 years earlier nobody knew anything about an inhabited city where Great Zimbabwe now stands.--AssegaiAli 22:15, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I have been trying to get the location of the Mwene Mutapa court when António Fernandes vijsited it circa 1514 (José Clara) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.133.84.150 (talk) 11:58, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Zulu from north of Zambezi??
I have never heard of this origin for the Amazulu, who did not exist as a unit people but were welded together by amalgamation of smaller Nguni-derived peoples in what is now South Africa during the mfeqane/difiqane in 18 and 19th century. (see Dingane, Chaka zulu, etc). As far as I know the Nguni came down through waht is now Mocambique. Unless you are referring to the Barotse now in the NW of Zambia. I think the statement that Zulu weakened Mwenemutapa is suspect and should be changed or bettter researched. Khumalo/Zulu people went to Zambia under Mzilikazi but that was in 1825 or thereabouts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.27.90.186 (talk) 23:00, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Religion
Please be precise about the part of Africa where these chibadis were found by this misionary. It seems this was recorded in Mutapa and Kongo Kingdoms in the same year by the same misionary. Is this not a simple cut and paste. (Comment made in main page by Special:Contributions/82.37.187.104) Touchatou (talk) 12:49, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Whose Empire was it?
There was an interesting discussion on another website about this "African civilization".

Some interesting images (I can't upload here):

(I have also deliberately NOT included any of the conjecture from the website. As such, there is no "conspiracy" here, ONLY authentic images from the time of Monomotapa.)

1. The Capital City was not in 'Zimbabwe' Rather it was on the exact spot of modern-day Pretoria.

https://www.stolenhistory.org/attachments/pretoria_map_1_1-jpg.22032/

2)But, WHO precisely ruled this "Empire"? Well, here's a 1522 Portuguese illustration..

https://www.stolenhistory.org/attachments/king_old-jpg.22035/

We see the Ruler sitting on the spot where modern-day Pretoria is., ie. NOT in 'Zimbabwe'.

And a closer look at that King reveals his ethnicity as well.

https://www.stolenhistory.org/attachments/hengi_1-jpg.22028/

This was the Reality of Southern Africa in 1522. Before the 1652 landing of Jan van Riebecck. 197.86.143.10 (talk) 06:23, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Coat of arms
Hello, can anyone explain to me the description of the Coat of arms file? I just read the German article about the Kingdom of Mutapa and found this text: (English: Coat of arms granted in 1569 to 'The Emperor Monomatapa' (Mwenemutapa) by the King of Portugal. Blazon: Gules between two arrows Argent an African hoe barwise bladed Argent handled Or - The shield surmounted by a Crown Oriental.) The first sentence is fine with me. The second part seems to be a strange translation from French? maybe Catalan/Spanish/Portugease? to English, but there is no French text nor Portuguese. What is „Gules“? „Barwise“? „Argent“ must be „silver“, „Or“ = „“gold(en)“, I guess. Thank you very much for your help! Erbsenesche (talk) 19:10, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

 * I found myself an answer for the word "gules" (in Wikipedia, of course :):
 * "In heraldry, gules (/ˈɡjuːlz/) is the tincture with the colour red. It is one of the class of five dark tinctures called "colours", the others being azure (blue), sable (black), vert (green) and purpure (purple)." :The words "argent" and "or" are mentioned there,too. Still missing "barwise"".Erbsenesche (talk) 16:09, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Kingdom of Mutapa


text:
User:Per Stilling

I am new to Wikipedia on August 2004. Interesting place for collaboration and information based on healthy anarchy. I am happy to be here...

Per Stilling per.stilling@gmail.com

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User:Per Stilling


text:
Talk:Internet

Capitalisation
I can understand why the saga above was eventually closed, but it seems to me to be yet another example of US-centric decision-making. Pretty much all of the rest of the world doesn't capitalise, and everyone understands what it means, and why the World Wide Web is different and a proper noun. In my professional life, WAN was always used in preference to "an internet", from at least 10 years ago and probably 15. And having just googled my way through a variety of sources, I still think it's the wrong decision to capitalise. I suggest raising it again in 2021, taking steps to ensure that enough non-US-based editors participate in the discussion. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 04:31, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

 * , perhaps you are saying then that this should not be a monolithic single style, but rather a WP:ENGVAR issue, where in American English we capitalize most times, but in e.g. British English or Indian English we would not. Elizium23 (talk) 04:49, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

 * Hmmm, that's a thought, - but that would have to be discussed and consensus reached, either way. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 04:57, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

 * To distract from the discussion, why is it that "the Internet" didn't get an actual name, other than that of its underlying technology? As it was being built, and even now, parts of it have names. There was NSFNET and MILNET, the early parts of the US Government run scientific and military networks, respectively.  US DOE ran ESNET (Energy Sciences network). I do find it interesting sometimes to find people whose family name is actually an ordinary noun, though many names are based on (presumably historically) someone's occupation.  In any case, the Internet could have had a nice name like WorldNet or GlobalNet or some such, but it didn't. In any case, it does need a proper noun name, and that seems to be Internet.  Gah4 (talk) 16:54, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

 * "WAN" has nothing to do with Internet. It is interconnection of autonomous systems. 2A00:1370:812D:8D4D:12D:BE3D:B8CF:637D (talk) 14:48, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I also agree too that WAN is interconnection of Autonomous systems Courtesy Smith (talk) 18:56, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

 * I think a significant part of the issue is what "Internet" is being referred to. The Internet architecture or Internet model has always been, and will presumably always be, capitalized. The capitalized Internet, at least in academia, refers to the Internet in relation to those. I.e., not the web, not Instagram, not Reddit, not Wikipedia, not a random website, etc, while the internet tends to refer to a service, such as Facebook, Instagram etc rather than the infrastructure or architecture itself or the coordination or governance thereof. Compare, for example, "I read that vaccines cause autism on the internet" (lowercase intended) vs "a core value of the Internet model is its descriptive nature over a prescriptive dito such as the OSI-model" (capitalization intended). Flindeberg (talk) 23:13, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

 * The Internet is not "a thing", or has a well defined governance structure, or is even well defined. I cannot see how someone could intentionally name "it". Compare with, for example, Bluetooth. Bluetooth is well defined, it is a basket of protocols for radio communication over short distances. Bluetooth has a well defined governance structure, the Bluetooth Special Interests Group (SIG). If the Bluetooth SIG change the name of Bluetooth to Rednose that name change would be final. In contrast there is no centrally governing institution for the Internet. There is ICANN, which formally coordinates the DNS-root most of the Western world uses (or more precise, IANA does that), but only the root (i.e. TLDs), it has no power over those who chose to use a different root (which is very possible technically). IP-number spaces are more difficult in a technical sense to avoid, but nothing prevents you from using another IP (except that packets won't reach you) or announce your own prefix (which most networks would ignore) etc. There is also the IETF, and the IETF publishes documents in a series called the RFC-series, some of these RFCs are intended to be used as standards, but no one will force you to follow those standards. I think this is quite central to the whole naming / capitalization issue. Since there is no coherence except an voluntary agreement to use some standards roughly according to specification it is hard to define what it is and what to name it. Flindeberg (talk) 23:23, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

 * It would be good to get this settled one way or the other. In spite of the 'no consensus' result of the November 2020 RFC, this very discussion here is being relied on by an IP editor at Christmas music as providing support for their preferred "Internet" option (Talk:Christmas_music). Maybe time for an updated RFC soon? MichaelMaggs (talk) 13:37, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

 * There was another RFC in 2021, which ran for months but got nowhere: Popcornfud (talk) 14:04, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

 * Thanks, I hadn't seen that. Not a formal RFC but a well-attended discussion. Given that that went nowhere, there doesn't seem much point in launching anything new at the moment. Maybe things will become clearer in a year or two. MichaelMaggs (talk) 16:04, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

 * Sorry, I misremembered that as an RFC. My bad.
 * I think it's only a matter of time before Wikipedia formally goes lowercase. The weight of the reliable sources on this subject is crushing at this point and, as you pointed out on the other talk page, it's obviously out of keeping with our caps policy generally, and as far as I can tell the only opposition is dogmatic. It's probably correct that Wikipedia is the last major publication (if that's the right word) to decap, since Wikipedia follows rather than leads. Popcornfud (talk) 16:29, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

 * Yes, I agree. That discussion was a fascinating read, though. My favourite argument, the absolute definition of linguistic prescription, was MichaelMaggs (talk) 17:03, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

 * It seems to me that it is a thing, in the sense that you know if you are, or are not, connected to it. Not so many years ago, it was usual for large (or small) corporations to have their own (small i) internet. There wasn't a big need to connect to outside networks. (In the NSFnet days, connections such as e-mail were not allowed between .COM domains. Academic and government users could contact each other, or .COM, though.) There was, and I believe still is, MILnet, the internet for the US defense department. NSFnet was US government funded for connecting (mostly) universities with government contracts. And for some time there was UUnet, a network of hosts connected through the UUCP protocol using dialup modems. I suspect the (big I) Internet could have had a more original name, if it had been thought up at the right time. There are likely still some corporate and government nets not connected to the (proper noun) Internet. Gah4 (talk) 21:15, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment If what you said is true, then the rest of the world is wrong, we should definitely capitalize the word. The word internet (also internetwork) is simply a contraction of the phrase interconnected network. However, when written with a capital "I", the Internet refers to the worldwide set of interconnected networks. Hence, the Internet is an internet, but the reverse does not apply.
 * End of the discussion. 2001:8003:9100:2C01:E910:5CCB:3DC2:FC81 (talk) 01:06, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Internet
The internet usually means the connection between two or more devices from different sources such as from a Samsung Galaxy AO4 to an iPhone 13 Pro Max. It may involve connecting wirelessly. Courtesy Smith (talk) 18:52, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

 * So? 2001:8003:9100:2C01:E910:5CCB:3DC2:FC81 (talk) 01:09, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 November 2023
Why the Internet is so popular, giving reasons such as the amount of information available and the speeds of assessing information? Information on the Internet tends to be up-to-date because it is quicker and easier to amend web page then it is to, for example, reprint books.

Why Internet searches are not always a fast way of finding information. When using search engines, there is always the danger of information overload. It is possible to find millions of website that match the given criteria. Unless the user narrow down their search criteria, it can take long time to find out exactly what they are looking for see figures 10.9 to 10.11.

Why it is not always easy to find reliable information on the Internet? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.192.226.30 (talk) 06:25, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

 * These are good questions, but I think it would be difficult to address them in an encyclopedic fashion. The article would need to address this by citing facts and well-researched opinions from reputable sources. Rp (talk) 10:25, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

 * Agree. 2001:8003:9100:2C01:E910:5CCB:3DC2:FC81 (talk) 01:13, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

 * @ 2.90.197.82 (talk) 14:43, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

kea 175.100.11.59 (talk) 06:07, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 February 2024
Please change "India's 28%" to "India's 60%" Reference 101 is correct, just uses wrong column for statistic, should be Penetration% Population not Users% Asia. NoLegsMcGee (talk) 23:12, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Verified and ✅ ~Kvng (talk) 15:03, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 June 2024
internet is owned by fergie brynil prasad also know as simon A prasad born 19-19-1985 203.86.199.60 (talk) 11:17, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. My real namm  (💬pros · ✏cons) 15:29, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Internet


text:
Talk:Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging

Ideology
At least one editor has protested the use of "neo-Nazi" and "white supremacist" to describe the ideology of this group, because he claims that's not how the group describes itself. To this, I would paraphrase The Almightey Drill and say don't give your group an aesthetic based on the Third Reich if you're afraid of the labels that will come. And they do come, in many reliable secondary sources. Rockypedia (talk) 17:48, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. HammerFilmFan (talk) 01:31, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
 * So aesthetics matter more than political positions and reality? That's a bit of an absurd standard. 17:17, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
 * No, you need to read more about how Wikipedia works. WP:RS: Reliable secondary sources matter more than the way a group describes itself. Sorry that you didn't figure that out from the first statement; I guess I have to be as literal and simple as possible when conversing with neo-Nazis. Rockypedia (talk) 01:02, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
 * It seems that those "reliable" sources aren't what they claim to be. And "Neo-Nazi" is a BS-word anyway. --105.12.1.94 (talk) 10:11, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Your hostility over such a reasonable question is clearly out of place here. Wikipedia doesn't describe itself as a propaganda factory, but we could find many secondary sources that say it is just that, and the heavy politicization of editors like you make that any easy argument to defend. 2620:10D:C091:480:0:0:1:2733 (talk) 20:44, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

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Multiracial vs democratic elections
Hello Special:Contributions/196.192.164.26 I noticed your change for Multiracial to democratic to describe the 1994 elections. Yes, per the history of Elections in South Africa there were a several different phases of partial and/or symbolic non-white participation outside the Bantustans, it seems misleading to suggest that this wasn't about racial integration. Do you have a better phrasing that is more accurate to the history? And/or a source to cite?--Theredproject (talk) 16:48, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

 * Well, observed. It is insinuated that there were no 'democratic election' prior to the 1994. What was different in 1994 was that anyone with an SA-ID (or even not) could cast votes (often more than one). The adjectives 'first, democratic' is hence misleading. As are many elements in the narratives about recent South African history.
 * 105.0.0.1 (talk) 14:31, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

Logo size
An editor is edit warring in the attempt to make the logo (down the page) very large. It's been at 137px for a while, and he's attempting to have it at 200px, much larger than is necessary to view the image. I'm asking for other editor's opinions. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:51, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Content dispute
I’m opening this section in hopes that we can discuss the changes you are trying to make to the article. It is always preferable to achieve consensus in situations such as these before resorting to edit warring. Please explain how your changes will improve the article here. Thanks Sakaimover (talk) 23:29, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Tear gas
"the unprecedented step of using lachrymatory agent or tear gas." Was it unprecedented in general or unprecedented in use against pro-apartheid groups? Dynzmoar (talk) 20:52, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

 * It's unclear and the whole statement has no source. Greenman (talk) 20:51, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Any sources about current activity?
I can’t find anything about them doing anything since around 2010. They apparently had a website but it now just returns an error. 2600:1017:B838:7306:E8FF:87A9:167D:9B04 (talk) 16:29, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging


text: Talk:Pilosella aurantiaca

title: Talk:Pilosella aurantiaca


text:
New Apocalyptics

The New Apocalyptics were a poetry grouping in the United Kingdom in the 1940s, taking their name from the anthology The New Apocalypse (1939), which was edited by J. F. Hendry (1912–1986) and Henry Treece. There followed the further anthologies The White Horseman (1941) and The Crown and Sickle (1944).

Their reaction against the political realism of much of the Thirties poetry drew for support upon D. H. Lawrence (Apocalypse, 1931), surrealism, myth, and expressionism.

Scottish connection
Others closely associated were the Scottish (as Hendry was) poets G. S. Fraser and Norman MacCaig, although the latter saw his work from Riding Lights (1955) onwards as part of "the long haul towards lucidity" after his Apocalyptic start.

There was quite an overlap with the Scottish Renaissance group of writers, though not necessarily by publication in London. Others sometimes mentioned in this connection include Ruthven Todd, Tom Scott, Hamish Henderson, Maurice Lindsay, Edwin Morgan, Burns Singer, and William Montgomerie. This grouping was fairly represented in Modern Scottish Poetry (1946). Welsh and Irish poets were also prominent.

Others
The other poets in the three anthologies were Ian Bancroft, Alex Comfort, Dorian Cooke, John Gallen, Wrey Gardiner, Robert Greacen, Robert Herring, Seán Jennett, Nicholas Moore, Philip O'Connor, Leslie Phillips, Gervase Stewart, Dylan Thomas, Vernon Watkins, and Peter Wells.

New Romantics
A broader movement of New Romantics has been postulated to cover many of the British poets between the Auden group of the 1930s and The Movement. This is much more debatable; it may be something of a flag of convenience for those such as the followers of Dylan Thomas and George Barker whose style marked them off, or on the other hand a tag for those addressed polemically and retrospectively by the Robert Conquest introduction to the New Lines anthology. The phrase New Romantics was used at the time, though, for example by Henry Treece; it is usually attributed to Cyril Connolly.

Effects of the times
Wartime conditions had posed great editorial difficulties, and the London operations of the publishers such as Tambimuttu, Grey Walls Press and Fortune Press had been stopgaps.

Kenneth Rexroth produced a post-war anthology covering the period, but it had little circulation in the UK. Another view was that from John Lehmann's New Writing.

Retrospect from the 1950s
By 1953 John Heath-Stubbs could write of the New Romantics as a movement of the past, though acutely singling out W. S. Graham under the heading of in it, though not of it. This was in the introduction to an anthology Images of Tomorrow, which also points out that the debate over the 'romanticism' was also a fissure within the Christian poets over style—indeed harking back to the religious and psychological depths of apocalypse.

title: New Apocalyptics


text:
TFA

TFA may refer to:
 * Task Force Argos, responsible for investigation of online child exploitation and abuse
 * Taipei Football Association
 * Tata Football Academy, a football (soccer) organisation in India
 * Taxpayer First Act, an IRS reform law
 * Teach For America, an organization to recruit teachers for public schools
 * Technology Futures Analysis, a collective term from futures studies
 * Terengganu FA, a Malaysian football club
 * Texas Forensic Association, an organization that provides speech and debate competitions for school students
 * The Force Awakens, a 2015 Star Wars film
 * The Freedom Association, a free-market libertarian advocacy group in the United Kingdom
 * Time–frequency analysis, a signal processing approach utilizing both time and frequency components of a signal
 * Trade Facilitation Agreement, part of the 2013 WTO Bali Package
 * Trans fatty acid
 * Trifluoroacetic acid, a strong carboxylic acid
 * Trifluoroacetone, a chemical compound
 * Two-factor authentication, an approach to verify identity in computer security
 * Transformers: Animated, an American superhero animated television series

title: TFA


text:
Tzachi Hanegbi

Tzachi Hanegbi (צחי הנגבי, born 26 February 1957) is an Israeli politician and national security expert serving as Israel's National Security Advisor. A member of Likud, Hanegbi previously served as Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development, Minister of Regional Cooperation and Minister of Community Affairs.

He served as Minister of Justice, Minister of Internal Security, Minister of Intelligence and Nuclear Affairs, and Minister in the Prime Minister's office supervising Israel's intelligence agencies Mossad and Shin Bet. He was also responsible for overseeing Israel's Atomic Energy Agency, and served as the minister in charge of Israel's strategic relationship and security dialogue with the United States. He also served as Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs and as the Chairman of the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee and Majority Leader of the Knesset.

Hanegbi was appointed by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to serve as acting prime minister of Israel, from 10 to 17 September 2017, while the prime minister traveled abroad.

He lost his seat in the Knesset in the 2022 Israeli legislative election. In January 2023, Hanegbi was appointed head of the National Security Council.

Biography
Hanegbi was born in Jerusalem, to a family of both Mizrahi Jewish (Yemeni-Jewish, Moroccan-Jewish, and Turkish-Jewish) and Ashkenazi Jewish (Polish-Jewish) descent. His mother is Geula Cohen, a prominent member of the 1940s underground group Lehi and later MK for Likud and Tehiya. His father, Emmanuel Hanegbi, was the Operations Officer for the Lehi. After his military service in the paratroopers corps, Hanegbi studied international relations at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. As president of the Hebrew University Student Union in 1980, he received a six-month suspended sentence for leading an attack on Arab students. Despite this incident, he became president of the National Union of Israeli Students later that year, holding that title until 1982. After his undergraduate studies, he went on to study law, obtaining an LL.B.

Hanegbi lives in Mevaseret Zion, a town on the outskirts of Jerusalem.

Political career
Hanegbi was on the 37th spot on the Likud list and first elected to the Knesset in the 1988 elections, and headed the Prime Minister's Bureau under Yitzhak Shamir. He retained his seat in the 1992 and 1996 elections, and was initially appointed Minister of Health in Binyamin Netanyahu's government, becoming Minister of Justice in September 1996 and dropping the health portfolio in November that year.

He lost his ministerial portfolio after Ehud Barak won the 1999 elections, but returned to government when Ariel Sharon won the special election for PM in 2001. Hanegbi was appointed Minister of the Environment in March 2001, adding the Transportation portfolio to his duties later in the year.

After Likud's convincing win in the 2003 elections, Hanegbi was appointed Minister of Internal Security. In September 2003 he was appointed by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon as minister in the Prime Minister's Office in charge of Israel's intelligence agencies – the Mossad and Shin Bet, and supervised Israel's Atomic Energy Agency.

When Sharon broke away to form Kadima in November 2005, Hanegbi was appointed interim chairman of Likud. On the following day, Hanegbi announced that he was also switching to Kadima, and resigned from the Knesset on 10 December. However, he reappeared in the Knesset in April 2006 after winning a seat in the 2006 elections. From May 2006 until December 2010 Hanegbi served as the Chairman of the Knesset's Security and Foreign Affairs Committee.

Placed fourth on the party's list, he retained his seat in the 2009 elections.

Trial
In July 2010, after a four-year trial for election bribery, fraud and breach of trust, Hanegbi was cleared of all charges by a Jerusalem court. However, the three-judge panel found him guilty of perjury. The case stems from Hanegbi's denial that he was behind an ad boosting his appointments of Likud party's political activists to positions in the Ministry of the Environmental Protection. The judges verdict cleared Hanegbi of any criminal wrongdoing, accepting the defense's argument that such appointments were not illegal prior to 2004, and that this was the common practice among all cabinet members in all the previous governments since Israel's independence. The court ruled that selectively prosecuting Hanegbi for what was a widespread and common practice was wrong and unfair. Hanegbi was urged by his legal team to appeal the perjury conviction to Israel's High court of Justice. Following the verdict, several prominent leaders and officials publicly defended Hanegbi. Former Knesset Speaker Avraham Burg who opposes Hanegbi politically, has called for the firing of the prosecutor by the Attorney General.

On 9 November 2010, the Jerusalem court fined Hanegbi 10,000 NIS, and in a 2-to-1 decision imposed moral turpitude to the offense. Hanegbi therefore suspended himself from the Knesset and from his position as Chairman of the Foreign Affairs and Defence Committee, pending his legal appeal. His seat was taken by Nino Abesadze.

Return to Likud
Hanegbi resigned from Kadima and returned to Likud when Kadima decided to leave the short-lived unity government in July 2012. Hanegbi explained that he believed Kadima's decision to quit the unity government was irresponsible, and motivated by short-term political goals. Following his decision, Hanegbi was re-elected on the Likud list in the January 2013 elections. In June 2014 he was appointed Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs.

On 30 May 2016 Hanegbi was appointed Minister without portfolio in the Fourth Netanyahu Cabinet, dealing with issues concerning defense and foreign affairs.

On 2 June 2016 Hanegbi denied allegations that he intentionally wrote a report on Operation Protective Edge that cleared the Israeli government of all wrongdoing. He was appointed Acting Minister of Communications in February 2017, a post he held until being replaced by Ayoob Kara in May.

title: Tzachi Hanegbi


text:
Seal of the president of the United States

The seal of the president of the United States is used to mark correspondence from the president of the United States to the U.S. Congress, and is also used as a symbol of the presidency itself. The central design, based on the Great Seal of the United States, is the official coat of arms of the U.S. presidency and also appears on the presidential flag.

The presidential seal developed by custom over a long period before being defined in law, and its early history remains obscure. The use of presidential seals goes back at least to 1850, and probably much earlier. The basic design of today's seal originated with Rutherford B. Hayes, who was the first to use the coat of arms on White House invitations in 1877. The precise design dates from 1945, when President Truman specified it in. The only changes since were in 1959 and 1960, which added 49th and 50th stars to the circle following the admissions of Alaska and Hawaii as states.

Design and symbolism
The current seal is defined on Executive Order 10860, made by President Dwight D. Eisenhower on February 5, 1960, and effective since July 4, 1960. It states: "The Coat of Arms of the President of the United States shall be of the following design:
 * SHIELD: Paleways of thirteen pieces argent and gules, a chief azure; upon the breast of an American eagle displayed holding in his dexter talon an olive branch and in his sinister a bundle of thirteen arrows all proper, and in his beak a white scroll inscribed "E PLURIBUS UNUM" sable.
 * CREST: Behind and above the eagle a radiating glory Or, on which appears an arc of thirteen cloud puffs proper, and a constellation of thirteen mullets argent.
 * The whole surrounded by white stars arranged in the form of an annulet with one point of each star outward on the imaginary radiating center lines, the number of stars conforming to the number of stars in the union of the Flag of the United States as established by chapter 1 of title 4 of the United States Code.

The Seal of the President of the United States shall consist of the Coat of Arms encircled by the words "Seal of the President of the United States"."

The blazon (design) is essentially the same as the obverse of the Great Seal of the United States as defined in 1782, although with some extra colors specified, and a different arrangement of the stars, clouds, and glory than is typically seen in modern versions of the Great Seal. The only purely distinct element is the ring of 50 stars, representing the 50 states. Likewise, the symbolism follows that of the Great Seal:
 * The stripes on the shield represent the 13 original states, unified under and supporting the chief. The motto (meaning "Out of many, one") alludes to the same concept.
 * The arc of thirteen clouds, and the thirteen stars, also refer to the original 13 states.
 * The olive branch and arrows denote the powers of peace and war.

Official use
The actual seal die is only used on correspondence from the president to the United States Congress, closing the envelopes with wax seals. This has been the primary use throughout the seal's history, though isolated uses have been made for correspondence with other members of government. Documents signed by the president when representing the nation are instead sealed with the Great Seal of the United States.

Strictly speaking, the brass die used at the White House is the only actual seal of the president – other versions are technically "facsimiles". The Bureau of Engraving and Printing has other dies, used to produce such facsimiles on documents, stationery, and invitations as requested by the White House. Other versions of the seal are often used as a visual symbol to represent the president, and are most often seen:
 * on the Blue Goose lectern at presidential press conferences and campaign rallies
 * on the sides of presidential transports Air Force One, Marine One, and the presidential limousine
 * at the center of the ceiling in the Oval Office of the White House
 * affixed to the Truman Balcony A.K.A. the South Portico during a State Arrival Ceremony

The presidential coat of arms (the central device on the seal, i.e. without the encircling "SEAL OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES" legend) has even wider usage. It appears:
 * on the presidential flag
 * on the reverse of the Kennedy half dollar (encircled with "UNITED STATES OF AMERICA" on the top and "HALF DOLLAR" on the bottom). For the United States Bicentennial, a depiction of Independence Hall was used on the reverse of the coin. The seal returned to the reverse starting in 1977.
 * at the center of the iconic oval rug in the Oval Office of the White House (each president typically designs his own, but most rugs since President Truman have used the arms).
 * incorporated into the Presidential Service Badge issued to U.S. military personnel.
 * on many versions of presidential china, such as the Wilson or Reagan china, which is often used at state dinners at the White House.
 * at the burial sites of former presidents (e.g., Wilson and Reagan).

Regulated use
In general, commercial use of the seal is prohibited by 18 USC 713 of the United States Code, and further defined by Executive Orders 11916 and 11649. The United States Secret Service is authorized to use the seal in conjunction with fund raising sales for its charitable benefit fund.

Unofficial use of the seal is regulated by the White House Graphics and Calligraphy Office and monitored by the office of the White House Counsel. On September 28, 2005, Grant M. Dixton, associate counsel to George W. Bush, requested that the satirical newspaper The Onion remove the presidential seal from its website. The Graphic and Calligraphy Office will approve of the seal's use in application of official gifts, an example being its application to a silver cigarette box presented as a gift to Franklin Roosevelt.

History
The early history of the president's seal remains obscure, as there is essentially no record on early usage, nor when its use started. It appears that the primary use was to seal the envelopes on correspondence from the president to Congress, and the envelopes were presumably discarded even if the correspondence was kept, so there is little record remaining. The first documented seal was in 1850 (which almost certainly was not the first one), and the design used on today's seal had its origins in a coat of arms used on invitations by President Hayes in 1877. It was not defined in law until an executive order by President Truman in 1945.

Seal of the president of the Congress of the Confederation
During the period of the Congress of the Confederation, prior to the creation of the U.S. federal government and thus the presidency, the president of the Continental Congress (a mostly ceremonial position, elected to preside over meetings) had a seal. It was a small oval, with the crest from the recently adopted Great Seal (the radiant constellation of thirteen stars surrounded by clouds) in the center, with the motto E Pluribus Unum above it. Much like today's presidential seal, the primary purpose was apparently to seal envelopes on correspondence sent to the Congress. Benson Lossing (writing in 1856) claimed it was used by all the presidents of the Congress after 1782, though only two examples from Thomas Mifflin are documented today: Lossing described a 1784 letter, and Commodore Byron McCandless (while doing research for the 1945 seal redesign) photographed a seal on a November 17, 1783 Mifflin letter to the Governor of Rhode Island. An 1885 article from the Daily Graphic included an original engraving of the seal supposedly from a 1784 letter; it is not known if this was just based on Lossing's version or if they had a separate impression. None of these impressions are known to still exist, and no confirmation of an order for this seal (proving an official status) has been found in Continental Congress records.

This seal's use apparently did not pass over to the new government in 1789.

Dorsett seal
In 1894, Palemon Howard Dorsett (a lifelong Department of Agriculture employee) turned up with a metal die very similar to the original die of the Great Seal, except that the arrows and the olive branch were switched, indicating an intentional "difference" to distinguish it from the actual Great Seal. The die had apparently been owned by George Washington, though there are no known uses of this die, and there even is no indication it could actually be used as a seal. The origins and purpose of this die remain unknown, though the authors of a 1978 book on the Great Seal speculated it was a gift to Washington and possibly an early version (or forerunner) of a presidential seal. The Dorsett seal was subsequently loaned to the Mount Vernon Ladies' Association to be displayed at Washington's estate.

Early presidential seals
There is little extant evidence of any seals actually used by early U.S. presidents. One possibility is a letter from 1835, sent from Paris to Andrew Jackson and then forwarded to the Department of State. The envelope has a small circular red wax seal, with the upper portion appearing to have a circle of cloud puffs similar to the Great Seal, with rays of a glory. However, the rest of the design has been obliterated, so nothing further can be determined, and no other uses of this seal have been found.

The documented history begins in 1850, when a seal was made after a crude drawing submitted by Millard Fillmore. It depicted an eagle "displayed with wings inverted", i.e. with its wingtips down, holding an olive branch and three arrows in its talons. The shield is essentially the same as the Great Seal, with a blue chief and red and white stripes and the eagle facing to its right, though there were nineteen stripes and the outermost stripes were red, both unlike the Great Seal. Thirty-one stars were distributed above and around the eagle, indicating that the seal dates from after when California became the 31st state in September 1850. It was made by Edward Stabler, a farmer and postmaster in Sandy Spring, Maryland, who had earlier made seals for the Senate, House of Representatives, and several government departments. Stabler had also made a seal for the vice president in 1846, and the correspondence surrounding it indicated that even earlier vice presidential seals existed, so presumably earlier presidential seals existed as well. The president's seal was described by Benson Lossing in 1856 as "round, with an eagle upon it" (contrasting it to the seal used during the Continental Congress).

The information on Fillmore's seal is from an 1885 article in the Daily Graphic, and (according to Daniel S. Lamont, the private secretary to Grover Cleveland and one of the article's sources) the 1850 seal was still in use at that time and was used to seal envelopes sent to either house of Congress. The article claims that Stabler made two seals, the other being a smaller one for use on letters, and stated that both were illustrated in the article. While the large seal was illustrated, the rendering of a smaller seal was labeled the "Old Seal" and had only twenty-seven stars, seeming to indicate it would date from 1845 during James K. Polk's administration rather than being a smaller 1850 seal. While Fillmore did use a personal seal (a simple script F in a circular border) it does not appear that this was the smaller seal mentioned. The design on the "Old Seal" was quite similar to the large version, though it was a different rendering of the eagle with small differences in positioning. The inscriptions were also slightly different; the large seal had THE SEAL OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, while the smaller one (like the present-day version) omitted the word "The" at the beginning.

Lincoln's seal
The Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library and Museum owns a small seal used by Abraham Lincoln, which was previously a part of the Taper Collection. It is about the size of a penny, has an ivory handle, and is still encrusted with red wax. The design is exactly the same as the one labeled the "Old Seal" in the Daily Graphic article, except it has 36 stars (Nevada became the 36th state in October 1864). A 1927 book also describes a red wax presidential seal on a letter from Lincoln to Hiram Barney.

In September 1864, an engraver named J. Baumgarten from Baltimore, Maryland made and sent Lincoln an unsolicited seal, marked with "A Lincoln" on its side, meant for personal use. Baumgarten also claimed to have made seals of the "same plan" for both Presidents Fillmore and Buchanan. This was just prior to Nevada becoming the 36th state, but as the design of this seal is not described, and no reply from Lincoln is known and no payment is recorded, it is not possible to know if it was the aforementioned 36-star seal, something similar to the simple F seal used by Fillmore, an entirely different seal, or if it was used at all. Baumgarten may well have been related to Selig Baumgarten, an engraver who emigrated to Baltimore from Hanover with eight children in 1852. One of Selig's sons, Herman Baumgarten, later engraved the 1877 version of the Great Seal.

Hayes design
Rutherford B. Hayes was first to use the presidential coat of arms on White House invitations, and the design used was the direct precursor to the modern version. Its first appearance was in April 1877, about six weeks after his inauguration. The eagle's wings were shown "displayed" (wingtips up), with an arc of cloud puffs between the wings, and thirteen stars scattered below the arc and surrounding a scroll reading E Pluribus Unum. The eagle's head was turned to its left toward the arrows for the first time, a feature which would last until 1945. The eagle itself was similar to the Great Seal rendering at the time (prior to the more robust eagle used in the 1885 redesign of the Great Seal). The designer of this embossing is not known; with minor variations it was used on invitations until the early years of President Wilson's administration.

The design using the arc of clouds is reminiscent of an early rendering of the Great Seal made by James Trenchard in 1786, which was then later used on Indian Peace Medals handed out by President Washington. It is also very similar to a design seen on the letterhead of a proclamation by James K. Polk in 1846, which also had the eagle facing its left but additionally switched the olive branch and arrows so the head was still looking towards the branch. (Earlier proclamation letterheads, and even the Jackson White House china, also switched the arrows and branch and had the eagle facing to its left, though they were completely different designs otherwise. ) Other influences may have been some U.S. coins and President Grant's china, which used the general design of an arc of clouds though the rest of the details were different.

The actual seal used by the president was changed to have a similar design, though apparently not at the time. The Daily Graphic article reported the 1850 seal was still in use in 1885, but the change had been made by 1894, as an impression of this new seal was obtained from Henry T. Thurber (President Cleveland's private secretary) for use in a book on heraldry. This version moved closer to the modern design, with the words OF THE in smaller capital letters than the other words (a feature which is still used), and the layout of stars being slightly changed into essentially the arrangement still used today. This seal remained in use until 1945, as Gaillard Hunt confirmed the design was still current as of 1916, and it also matches actual impressions taken from the presidential seal in 1936 during Franklin Roosevelt's administration. The design continued to evolve in other places in the meantime, particularly the presidential flag, and these evolved designs were used when the seal was changed again in 1945.

Martiny plaque
During renovations in early 1903, a bronze inlaid version of the seal was placed in the floor of the Entrance Hall of the White House, directly under the lantern. It was made from a model by the sculptor Philip Martiny, who followed the general arrangement of the Hayes arms but used considerable artistic license with the details. The eagle is substantially altered, with differently-shaped wings and thickly feathered legs. The shape of the shield was different, and the stars were arranged differently, with all stars appearing above the scroll using an arc of 10 stars with three more directly underneath. The scroll's inscription was E·PLVRIBVS·VNVM.

President Truman later felt that it was not right for people to walk over it, so when the White House was renovated again in 1948 he had the seal removed and placed over the door to the Diplomatic Reception Room, where it remains today. The plaster seal in the Oval Office ceiling (originally installed in 1934 and at some point changed so the eagle faces to its right) is also based on this design, and a version is in the floor next to Wilson's tomb in the Washington National Cathedral.

Bailey Banks & Biddle representation
In 1916, Woodrow Wilson decided to change the presidential flag, the Navy version of which used the Great Seal on a blue background (there was a competing design from the Army, which was different but also used the Great Seal). The Aide to the Secretary of the Navy, Lt. Commander Byron McCandless, suggested adding four stars to the Navy version. Wilson however wanted the "president's eagle" used on the flag instead, showing McCandless the Martiny plaque as an example. Wilson at some point obtained a color print of the president's seal, probably from the Philadelphia firm of Bailey Banks & Biddle, which was also used in the discussions. The eagle in this version was more based on the 1885 Great Seal, and is essentially the design used in the modern seal – the style and details of the eagle, the rays of the glory, the arrangement of the thirteen stars, and the cloud puffs have all been carried over into the current version.

This design was used for the 1916 flag, and also on subsequent presidential invitations and Wilson's presidential china, meaning the coat of arms was effectively changed as well. The actual presidential seal die was not changed at the time, though a 1917 McCandless publication on flags did show the new design as its depiction the seal.

The 1945 seal
In March 1945, Franklin Roosevelt (who had been assistant secretary of the Navy during Wilson's administration and was involved in the four-star 1916 presidential flag design ) noted that the flags for the new ranks of fleet admiral and General of the Army both had five stars, and asked the Army and Navy Departments for suggestions. The secretary of the Navy (whose flag also had four stars) replied that there was no issue, as the combination of four stars and the coat of arms of the presidential seal was indicative of higher rank.

Roosevelt persisted, and in March sent a query to Commodore Byron McCandless, then commanding the Naval Repair Base in San Diego, California. Roosevelt died on April 12, before McCandless could reply, but Harry Truman expressed a continuing interest in the matter and eventually a long reply was sent. McCandless recommended changing the four stars such that they were each made of 12 small stars, arranged in the shape of a larger six-pointed star; the four large stars would represent Roosevelt's Four Freedoms, the 48 total stars would represent the states, and the six-pointed star would be representative of the president's rank above five-star generals and admirals. Truman however disliked the idea of representing relative rank, and instead decided on a simple circle of 48 stars.

The proposed design was sent to the War and Navy Departments for comment. In a memorandum dated August 22, 1945 Arthur E. DuBois, the chief of the Heraldic Section of the Army's Office of the Quartermaster General (forerunner to the Army Institute of Heraldry), made several suggestions. He recommended making the eagle in full color per heraldic tradition (the presidential flag of the time depicted the eagle as entirely white), and recommended against using 48 stars, believing that flags and seals should not be subject to external changes such as adding additional states and instead suggested a ring of 13 stars. DuBois also noted that the seal had never had an official definition, meaning there was also no explanation for the eagle facing to its left instead of the typical heraldic custom of having such figures face to their right ("dexter"), which is considered the honorable side. Therefore, he recommended changing the direction the eagle faced, and provided an illustration along with a suggested blazon to be used in an official description. Truman agreed with most of these suggestions, additionally liking that the eagle would now face towards the olive branches (which he felt was symbolic of a nation on the march and dedicated to peace, ), but decided to keep the 48 stars. Truman also considered adding a lightning effect to the arrows as a reference to the atomic bomb, but later decided against it. On August 28 Truman had DuBois make a model containing all the final decisions, which was then approved.

On October 25, 1945, President Truman issued Executive Order 9646, which officially defined the presidential coat of arms and seal for the first time, and unified the design between the seal and the flag. The only changes since have been to add stars to the outer circle.

The actual die of the new seal was first used on December 5, 1945.

The 1959 and 1960 changes
Alaska was admitted as the 49th state on January 3, 1959, causing the 49th star to be added to the United States flag on the following July 4. On May 26, Dwight Eisenhower issued, which added a 49th star to the outer ring on the presidential coat of arms (and therefore the seal and flag as well), also effective on July 4. The order was otherwise identical to Truman's order, which it replaced. Hawaii was admitted as the 50th state on August 21, 1959, and Eisenhower duly issued on February 5, 1960 (effective July 4, 1960) to add the 50th star to the coat of arms. Once again, it was identical to the previous orders other than the number of stars. This remains the official definition today.

Because the upcoming admission of Hawaii would cause a further change the following year, no seal dies were made in 1959 with 49 stars, and the 1945 dies continued in use. New dies with 50 stars were made by the Bureau of Engraving and Printing only after the 1960 executive order came into effect.

Misconception
A popular but erroneous myth is that the seal is changed during times of war, so that the eagle faces the arrows in its left talon. This belief may have arisen because major changes to the seal have coincidentally been made before or after wars – specifically, the 1945 change in the seal, and also the 1916 change in the flag (though not the seal) from the right-facing Great Seal to the left-facing presidential seal.

This misconception may also have arisen from a comment made by Winston Churchill, who, regarding Truman's redesign of the seal, joked: "Mr. President, with the greatest respect, I would prefer the American eagle's neck to be on a swivel so that it could face the olive branches or the arrows, as the occasion might demand".

The belief is perpetuated by a 2000 episode of The West Wing entitled "What Kind of Day Has It Been?". Character Admiral Fitzwallace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, notes that the presidential seal in the center of the Oval Office carpet contains a shield bearing a bald eagle clutching the olive branch in its right talons and arrows in its left. The eagle's head is turned toward the olive branch. Fitzwallace alleges that in times of war the seal is replaced with one in which the eagle's head is turned toward the arrows.

Similarly, the Dan Brown novel Deception Point (2001) includes a passage implying that the seal embroidered on the carpet in the Oval Office is switched by White House workers. The novel states that an alternative carpet is stored in the basement, and the workers make the change overnight when no one notices.

In the 2007 film National Treasure: Book of Secrets, there is a variation of the presidential seal that shows the eagle clutching a scroll. This variation is supposed to represent the secret book that is passed down from president to president and contains the country's secrets.

Popular culture
The seal is sometimes used in modified form as a marketing tool, or to make a political statement. The punk rock group the Ramones used a personal variation of the seal as their logo, replacing the arrows with a baseball bat and the inscription around it with the members' names, and also changing the motto and the design on the shield. Blink-182 and other bands have also used the logo on T-shirts. Some fashion brands (mainly for teenagers) have also used the logo as an added design for accessories like bags. In addition, the animated menu sequence on all DVDs of The West Wing contains a slightly altered version of the seal (40 stars, added country name, segmented ribbon). In the backing video for Skinny Puppy's "VX Gas Attack", featured on the Greater Wrong of the Right LIVE DVD, another altered version of the seal is shown (the olive and arrows replaced with bleeding gas nozzles, and the eagle replaced with a skull). It is also used by rap group The Diplomats as their trademark logo, except that the olive branch and arrows are usually replaced by two guns and the word "Diplomats" is across the center of the eagle. In the video game Metal Wolf Chaos, the titular powered armor is piloted by President Michael Wilson, the protagonist, and is adorned with large images of the seal, although modified from the real-life version.

2019 spoof incident
On July 23, 2019, President Donald Trump, the forty-fifth president, gave an address to young Republicans at the Turning Point USA Teen Student Action Summit 2019 in front of a screen onto which a spoof caricature of the seal was projected. The graphic was switched after 80 seconds. At the time, no one from the White House, the hosting facility, the hosting organization, or the summit organizers appeared to have been aware of the substitution. The story was reported by The Washington Post on July 24, including photos and video of Trump speaking in front of the fake seal. Turning Point USA later blamed an audio-visual employee for the gaffe.

The "faux seal" showed a double-headed eagle, in the tradition of the Russian state (suggestive of Russian interference in U.S. politics). In one claw the arrows had been replaced with golf clubs (representing the president's connection to the sport), while the other held a wad of green banknotes. The chief of the shield bore five white hammer-and-sickle devices; and the motto E pluribus unum had been replaced by the phrase 45 es un títere, Spanish for "Number 45 is a puppet".

The graphic had been designed and marketed in 2016 as a joke by Charles Leazott, a disillusioned Republican who opposed President Trump. He later commented that the unidentified perpetrator was "either wildly incompetent or the best troll ever. Either way, I love them." He subsequently displayed an image of Trump speaking before his seal design on the site for his related products.


text:
Corolla, North Carolina

Corolla is an unincorporated community located in Poplar Branch township, Currituck County, North Carolina, United States, along the northern Outer Banks. It has a permanent population of approximately 500 people; during the summer vacation season, the population surges into the thousands. Corolla is home to the Currituck Beach Lighthouse, one of the seven North Carolina coastal lighthouses.

Previously a quiet and little-known location, a development boom in the 1980s sparked growth in the area, and since then, Corolla has become a popular vacation destination. Resting between the Currituck Sound and the Atlantic Ocean, Corolla attracts mainly beach-goers, especially in the summer months. Corolla is home to numerous attractions such as the historic Whalehead Club, Currituck Beach Light, Center for Wildlife Education, and is known for its numerous locations for shopping, dining, and participating in water sports.

Corolla is home to a herd of feral Banker horses. They are located on a 12,000-acre (49 km$2$) animal sanctuary situated north of the populated areas of Corolla. Over fifty thousand people come to see these wild horses every week in the summer months.

Pronunciation
Named for the collection of petals of a flower, the correct pronunciation has an emphasis on the second syllable, rah (kuh-RAH-luh, /kəˈrɑːlə/); however, many visitors incorrectly pronounce Corolla the same way they pronounce the name of the Toyota Corolla, with the second syllable sounding like row (kuh-ROW-luh, /kəˈroʊlə/).

Corolla Demographics
Corolla is a diverse place, with its native residents describing themselves as belonging to various ethnic groups. The greatest number among them are white, followed by African Americans. Significant ancestries of people in Corolla include English, German, Italian, and Polish. The principal language spoken is English, but Spanish and Italian are other popular languages. Per capita income in Corolla is $48,670. 52.80% of the adult population has a four-year degree or equivalent, while in other parts of the United States the average is 21.84%.

Parks and nature preserves
Corolla is home to the Outer Banks Center for Wildlife Education, located in Currituck Heritage Park. The park has a boardwalk through wetlands. It is listed as an eBird hotspot, with at least 80 species recorded in the park. Less than a mile north of Corolla is the Currituck Banks North Carolina National Estuarine Research Reserve.

History
The community of Corolla began as a European development on American Indian hunting grounds. Tribes including the Chowanoke and Poteskeet hunted along the barrier island.

The town of Corolla was first called Jones Hill, after an early settler. It was also known as Whalehead or Currituck Beach. Early settlers made a living from fishing and hunting, as well as from salvage from shipwrecks and serving as guides to hunters.

Currituck was derived from an American Indian term, Carotank, meaning land of the wild geese. On the Atlantic migratory flyway, the area at the time had a large wild geese population. Over hunting in the late 19th century caused numbers to severely drop.

The town officially took the name Corolla in 1895 when a post office opened in the community. The name was chosen to refer to the botanic term for the petals of a flower. It wasn't until 1905 however, that a teacher and curriculum were provided to the local school. Development of Currituck's Northern Outer Banks began in 1967 when investors from Sandbridge, Virginia, put together an investment group to purchase undeveloped land. The first subdivision plotted was Carova with 1,993 lots. The lots were originally priced in the early 1970s at $8,000; as of 2006, some of these lots are worth up to $500,000.

The investors planned for a road to come through from Virginia Beach, Virginia, to allow access to the lots; however, these plans were abandoned in 1973 when the Back Bay National Wildlife Refuge south of Sandbridge was closed to all vehicular traffic, except by permit. Development pushed south through the 1970s, creating well over 1,000 additional lots in several subdivisions. In 1984 the residents of Corolla succeeded in their attempts to gain a public access road from the south. The state began paving the extension of NC-12 toward the north.

In addition to the Currituck Beach Light, the Currituck Shooting Club and Whalehead Club are listed on the National Register of Historic Places.

Beaches of Corolla
There are 15 beaches with public access, of which six have lifeguards and public parking and two include showers:
 * Corolla Village Road (shower, bathhouse)
 * Shad Street
 * Sturgeon Walkway
 * Bonito Street
 * Sailfish Walkway
 * Yaupon Lane (shower, bathhouse)

Climate
According to the Köppen climate classification, Corolla has a Humid subtropical climate (Cfa).

Ecology
According to the A. W. Kuchler U.S. potential natural vegetation types, Corolla, North Carolina would have a dominant vegetation type of Northern Cordgrass (73) with a dominant vegetation form of Coastal Prairie (20).

title: Corolla, North Carolina


text:
Duck, North Carolina

Duck is a town in Dare County, North Carolina, United States. As of the 2020 census, the population was 746. During the peak vacation season, starting after Memorial Day, the population increases to over 20,000. Duck is the northernmost incorporated town in Dare County and the Outer Banks' newest town, incorporated on May 1, 2002. Duck offers visitors outdoor recreational activities, summer events and concerts, watersports, fine dining, shopping, art galleries, and a nationally known jazz festival, as well as the 11 acre Town Park and soundside boardwalk.

Geography
Duck is located along the northern Outer Banks, between the Atlantic Ocean to the east and Currituck Sound to the west. According to the United States Census Bureau, the town has a total area of 9.6 km2, of which 6.3 sqkm is land and 3.4 sqkm, or 35.02% is water. Originally part of Currituck County to the north, the stretch of the Outer Banks which includes Duck was transferred to Dare County in the early 20th century. The region was named for the many ducks and waterfowl in the area.

2020 census
As of the 2020 United States census, there were 742 people, 288 households, and 202 families residing in the town.

Tourist attractions
The town park is a recreational facility with trails through the maritime forest and willow swamp. It also has an amphitheater, playground, picnic shelter, and public kayak/canoeing launch. The town has built a boardwalk which can be accessed from the park and through the commercial village. The boardwalk extends 0.78 mi along Currituck Sound. Duck's beach was named one of the "Top 15 Family-Friendly Beaches in America".

In October, Duck hosts its annual Jazz Festival. During the summer months, the town offers over 60 events and programs including Yoga on the Green, Movies on the Sound, a family magic show, live concerts and interactive theater. Programs are free and open to the public.

Town Council
The town of Duck encourages people to play an active role in their government. There are regular scheduled town meetings with the Town Council, where the public can address them on any matter they feel needs to be discussed. The community can also get involved and express their thoughts and concerns through attending council meetings and participating in public hearings.

Incorporation
On March 28, 2001, Representative Bill Culpepper introduced the Duck Incorporation Bill in the House. On August 29, 2001, after clearing the Senate on August 28 and the House on August 29, the bill became law. On November 6, 2001, voters voted in favor of the incorporation of Duck. Duck was incorporated as the sixth town in Dare County on May 1, 2002.

Lifesaving Station
The Caffeys Inlet Lifesaving Station was listed on the National Register of Historic Places in January 1978.

Awards and recognition

 * Duck was ranked one of USA Today's "Best Coastal Small Towns" by USA Today and 10Best.

Climate
The town of Duck marks the northernmost extent of hardiness zone 8b along the east coast of the United States.

Ecology
According to the A. W. Kuchler U.S. potential natural vegetation types, Duck, North Carolina would have a dominant vegetation type of Live oak/Sea Oats Uniola paniculata (90) with a dominant vegetation form of Coastal Prairie (20).

Education
Residents are zoned to Dare County Schools. Zoned schools are Kitty Hawk Elementary School, First Flight Middle School, and First Flight High School. Prior to 2004, First Flight High zoned students were zoned to Manteo High School.

title: Duck, North Carolina


text:
Category talk:Demoscene

Is Category:Art the right parent category for Demoscene? Question raised at Category_talk:Art.

 * Its the first time I've come across Demoscene as a topic. Category:Demoscene is a sub category of Art. I'm not sure that is the best place for it, but equally I'm not sure where else it should go. Perhaps as a subcat of Category:Computer art if we had one. -- Solipsist 18:11, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Demosceners
Is it right that the Demosceners category would come under Demo groups? It seems to me like it would be better directly under Demoscene, as not all demosceners are part of a group. --Ciaran H 20:38, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

title: Category talk:Demoscene


text:
Rodanthe, North Carolina

Rodanthe is an unincorporated community and census-designated place (CDP) located in Dare County, North Carolina, United States, on Hatteras Island, part of North Carolina's Outer Banks. As of the 2020 census it had a population of 213. Rodanthe, along with Waves and Salvo, are part of the settlement of Chicamacomico. Rodanthe includes the original Chicamacomico Life-Saving Station, decommissioned in 1954, but now a museum.

Rodanthe is served by North Carolina Highway 12, which runs north–south through town. The Chicamacomico area is bordered to the north by Pea Island National Wildlife Refuge and to the south by Cape Hatteras National Seashore, a situation which limits potential growth. The town is bordered by the Atlantic Ocean to the east and Pamlico Sound to the west.

Rodanthe is the easternmost point of North Carolina. It is famous for its observation of "Old Christmas" on January 6, formerly Christmas, December 25, by the Julian Calendar, a custom held over from the original settlers who still used the "Old Style" calendar. A mythical beast, "Old Buck"—possibly related to Belsnickel or Krampus who are companions of Saint Nicholas in Christmas festivities—is said to appear at the celebration.

The residents of Rodanthe are governed by the Dare County Board of Commissioners. Rodanthe is part of District 4, along with Avon, Buxton, Frisco, Hatteras, Waves and Salvo.

The Chicamacomico Life Saving Station and Oregon Inlet Station are listed on the National Register of Historic Places.

2020 census
As of the 2020 United States census, there were 213 people, 81 households, and 44 families residing in the CDP.

Tourist economy
Many of Rodanthe's restaurants, shops and markets are seasonal, closing during the winter months and reopening the following spring. Many of these are family-owned, rather than chain franchises. Provisions can still be purchased on the Outer Banks during the winter months, but a short drive south to the town of Avon or north to Nags Head is required.

There are two motels within the larger settlement of Chicamacomico, plus three other inns or bed and breakfasts on the island of Hatteras. There are numerous rental houses, as well as numerous campgrounds. Several smaller campgrounds cater to water sports enthusiasts. Local water sports include fishing, kayaking (both ocean and sound-side), swimming, sailboarding, surfing, kiteboarding, and wreck diving.

Climate
According to the Trewartha climate classification system, Rodanthe, North Carolina, has a humid subtropical climate with hot and humid summers, cool winters and year-around precipitation (Cfak). Cfak climates are characterized by all months having an average mean temperature > 32.0 °F (> 0.0 °C), at least eight months with an average mean temperature ≥ 50.0 °F (≥ 10.0 °C), at least one month with an average mean temperature ≥ 71.6 °F (≥ 22.0 °C) and no significant precipitation difference between seasons. During the summer months in Rodanthe, a sea breeze is present on most days, but episodes of extreme heat and humidity can occur with heat index values ≥ 100 °F (≥ 38 °C). Rodanthe is prone to hurricane strikes, particularly during the Atlantic hurricane season which extends from June 1 through November 30, sharply peaking from late August through September. During the winter months, episodes of cold and wind can occur with wind chill values < 10 °F (< −12 °C). The plant hardiness zone in Rodanthe is 8b with an average annual extreme minimum air temperature of 16.9 °F (−8.4 °C). The average seasonal (Dec-Mar) snowfall total is < 2 inches (< 5 cm), and the average annual peak in nor'easter activity is in February.

Ecology
According to the A. W. Kuchler U.S. potential natural vegetation types, Rodanthe would have a dominant vegetation type of live oak/sea oats Uniola paniculata (90) with a dominant vegetation form of Coastal Prairie (20).

Education
Residents are zoned to Dare County Schools. Zoned schools are Cape Hatteras Elementary School and Cape Hatteras Secondary School.

Nights in Rodanthe
In 2002, Nicholas Sparks published the book Nights in Rodanthe, a romance novel about two visitors to Rodanthe. George C. Wolfe directed a film adaptation of the same name, which was partially filmed in the town of Rodanthe and entirely filmed in eastern North Carolina – including Cape Hatteras, Southport and Wilmington. The movie was released on September 26, 2008. Several Rodanthe landmarks such as the Rodanthe Pier were used during filming. During film production, one of the rental houses, "Serendipity", the northeasternmost house in Rodanthe, was transformed into the fictional "Inn at Rodanthe". In November 2009, the house was damaged and declared a public nuisance by Dare County after a nor'easter storm. The house was saved from demolition by a private businessman, Ben Huss, a bail bondsman, from Newton, North Carolina. Threatened by erosion, the house was moved less than one mile south. The interior and exterior of the property were meticulously renovated to replicate the house presented in the film. Now a vacation rental, the Inn at Rodanthe has become a popular Outer Banks attraction and is booked year-round.

title: Rodanthe, North Carolina


text:
Waves, North Carolina

Waves is an unincorporated community and census-designated place (CDP) in Dare County, North Carolina, United States. It is on Hatteras Island, part of North Carolina's Outer Banks. As of the 2010 census it had a population of 134. Waves, along with Rodanthe and Salvo, are part of the settlement of Chicamacomico.

The residents of Waves are governed by the Dare County Board of Commissioners. Waves is part of District 4, along with Avon, Buxton, Frisco, Hatteras, Rodanthe and Salvo.

2020 census
As of the 2020 United States census, there were 172 people, 24 households, and 13 families residing in the CDP.

History
The community was so named on account of waves at the beach.

The Rasmus Midgett House was listed on the National Register of Historic Places in 2009.

Boundaries
The northern border of Waves is generally considered to be the ditch that runs under Highway 12 just south of Resort Rodanthe Drive. The southern border, separating Waves and Salvo, is more ambiguous. Long-time residents indicate various "official lines" separating the two. Formerly Rodanthe, Waves and Salvo were each served by their own post office. Today a single post office, located in Waves, serves the entire community and the former lines that separated the communities have become blurred.

Economy
The Waves area is dominated by campgrounds both large and small as well as numerous rental houses.

Climate
According to the Trewartha climate classification system, Waves, North Carolina has a humid subtropical climate with hot and humid summers, cool winters and year-around precipitation (Cfak). Cfak climates are characterized by all months having an average mean temperature > 32.0 °F (> 0.0 °C), at least eight months with an average mean temperature ≥ 50.0 °F (≥ 10.0 °C), at least one month with an average mean temperature ≥ 71.6 °F (≥ 22.0 °C) and no significant precipitation difference between seasons. During the summer months in Waves, a cooling afternoon sea breeze is present on most days, but episodes of extreme heat and humidity can occur with heat index values ≥ 100 °F (≥ 38 °C). Waves is prone to hurricane strikes, particularly during the Atlantic hurricane season which extends from June 1 through November 30, sharply peaking from late August through September. During the winter months, episodes of cold and wind can occur with wind chill values < 10 °F (< -12 °C). The plant hardiness zone in Waves is 8b with an average annual extreme minimum air temperature of 17.2 °F (-8.2 °C). The average seasonal (Dec-Mar) snowfall total is < 2 inches (< 5 cm), and the average annual peak in nor'easter activity is in February.

Ecology
According to the A. W. Kuchler U.S. potential natural vegetation types, Waves, North Carolina would have a dominant vegetation type of Live oak/Sea Oats Uniola paniculata (90) with a dominant vegetation form of Coastal Prairie (20).

Education
Residents are zoned to Dare County Schools. Zoned schools are Cape Hatteras Elementary School and Cape Hatteras Secondary School.

title: Waves, North Carolina


text:
Talk:Harm reduction

Wiki Education assignment: Global Poverty and Practice
— Assignment last updated by AleutianTea (talk) 18:59, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

I have removed links to specific service providers, agencies, clinics
This article is on the general idea of "harm reduction" and inclusion of links to specific organizations is undue, much the same way including links to specific centers or providers in Plasmapheresis or kidney dialysis. Graywalls (talk) 05:43, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

 * Hmmm. If you look at the kidney dialysis article, it does in fact mention specific organizations, e.g. when it states that "In 1913, Leonard Rowntree and John Abel of Johns Hopkins Hospital developed the first dialysis system which they successfully tested in animals." I think mentioning e.g. Insite in this article is similar to mentioning Johns Hopkins in that article. Prezbo (talk) 20:20, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Which has a contextual relevance in the development of the procedure. Not just selectively dropping names of providers that offer this service, or providers or clinics that were first to offer it in particular city/county/region/ on the west side Mississippi river. Graywalls (talk) 20:45, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Similar to what I said on the other talk page. If dialysis was controversial and legally disputed in the same way that syringe exchanges are, I'm sure the dialysis article would have more information about specific providers offering dialysis in different places. It has a "contextual relevance" in the history of this approach to public health. Prezbo (talk) 20:49, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Disagree. Graywalls (talk) 22:46, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * To state my point again: I'm sure if there was one agency providing dialysis in the United States, and its operation was the subject of a continuing legal dispute, the Wikipedia article on Nephrology would mention its name. It would be awkward not to. Prezbo (talk) 14:50, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Controversy or not, region by region, country by country name mentions on a high-level article like this is still not WP:DUE. OnPoint NYC need not appear by name in this article. Graywalls (talk) 18:50, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Do you feel the same way about Insite, etc.? Prezbo (talk) 19:36, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * It seems really tortured to me to say that a SIS facility exists in Canada but not mention its name. Why would we do that? You’ll need to start an rfc or do something else to get other opinions in here if that’s the way you want the article to read. Prezbo (talk) 19:55, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I've restored it to the last stable version. @Prezbo you're the one who newly introduced OnPoint NYC, which, I might point out that is an article you created and I'm of the opinion that it doesn't need to be newly introduced into the general article. Please stop adding it back. This has been discussed and no consensus exists in favor of inclusion. Please respect consensus building process and stop assuming insertion takes precedence. If you wish to include it, then you'll need to do the leg work to obtain consensus. Graywalls (talk) 22:39, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * You don’t have consensus behind this version. If it’s important to you, find someone else who agrees with you. Prezbo (talk) 22:45, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.. You are the one who introduced something that is being disputed. Graywalls (talk) 22:49, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Not how I read it. Prezbo (talk) 22:57, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * It is quoted out of WP:ONUS. In any case, where do you get this idea your preferred version; which is in favor of INCLUSION trumps it? Graywalls (talk) 23:01, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * It’s common sense. Prezbo (talk) 23:04, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm starting to have doubt about your adherence to respect consensus building process given the trollish response I got on a similar disagreement here by you and your comment that you should just make an "executive decision" in sourcing dispute. What you claim to be "common sense" doesn't prevail over the processes. Graywalls (talk) 23:11, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

, if I don't agree with something, I can say I disagree and you could have always try to discuss further, but your response and the edit summary in particular in July is not indicative of good faith intent to work towards a consensus. Graywalls (talk) 06:49, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

The dispute is about the inclusion of the specific page OnPoint NYC which is an article created by the user trying to insert it. It's already linked from Harm Reduction in the US, and Supervised injection site. It's totally undue to add OnPoint NYC all over the place. Graywalls (talk) 07:33, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

 * There’s nothing undue about linking to a new article (even one you created!) in articles about related topics. Prezbo (talk) 22:33, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * As to your broader comments—I don’t like you, you don’t like me. It’s fine. Prezbo (talk) 22:35, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

 * It is already in Harm reduction in the United States. I believe the inclusion of specific named organization into the higher level broader article covering the concept is undue when it is already in the one for United States where the existence is more reasonable. It is just creating a coat rack of service providers. The article does not need to name specific safe consumption site that is the first, the largest, or the biggest.. or whatever in each country to fulfill encyclopedic purpose. Prezbo inserted it, and continued re-inserting disputed contents even though consensus hasn't been established for its inclusion. (copied over from WP Medicine) Graywalls (talk) 01:08, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Inclusion of the specific organization does not seem appropriate unless it has been somehow singled out in the medical literature or is involved in a legal dispute with potentially large-scale implications. One article in a local (and rather niche) media outlet does not establish notability.
 * Also, comments like  and   are rather less than civil.
 * Has @Prezbo directly addressed their connection to this organization? I know that harm-reduction is controversial in some circles, but I don't understand how this odd detail has become such an issue.
 * Regards, Patrick J. Welsh (talk) 13:49, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I have no connection to OnPoint NYC. Prezbo (talk) 14:46, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for clarifying.
 * What I would do is to note the first safe injection sites in the US opened in NYC in 2021. Anyone who wants more details can easily find them through the sources cited. Its coverage in the NYTimes (even if in the local section) and the AP further establish notability. Readers curious to read more about SISs specifically will also find OnPoint directly discussed in that article, to which this one already links at the top of the section.
 * Please take this for whatever it may be worth. I am unfollowing to avoid being pulled into a debate over what seems to be a small point that should not require third-party arbitration.
 * Regards, Patrick J. Welsh (talk) 15:10, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Graywalls, do you have any objection to saying "As of 2023 there were only two supervised injection sites in the US"? Ideally, when editors object only to name-dropping a notable example, they remove just the name, and leave the rest. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:20, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * That is the entire point I was trying to accomplish. I am fine with this suggestion. I do not have a link to the WP hint/guideline, but the idea given is to avoid "such as A, B, C." that name names to not encourage more coats from getting racked. Graywalls (talk) 19:05, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * If you only want to remove the name of the specific example, the you should partially self-revert, so that you only remove the name of the specific example, and not 100% of the information about SIS in the US.
 * Coatrack articles are articles in which you claim to be writing about one thing, but you spend most (or at least an unreasonably large part) of the article writing about something related. For example, imagine someone writing an article that is nominally about Lake Wobegon, but when you click through to the article, it tells you very little about that place, and instead focuses on a famous resident, or a single event, or how well the children in that area are educated.  That editor has used the place like a "hook" to "hang" a different subject on.
 * A passing mention of an example is not a "coat rack". A passing mention of a blue-linked notable example is called Building the web, and it is generally considered a desirable behavior. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:36, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I've implemented what was suggested. I changed the source to Scientific American because a concern was raised that the existing one is a local niche media. Graywalls (talk) 04:14, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * This still doesn't make sense to me, but it's now three against one, so c'est la vie.
 * If you care about consistency it would make sense to scrub the article of references to other safe injection sites as well. Prezbo (talk) 20:39, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I am neutral on whether to include a link to the specific organization. Adding a link is common but not required.
 * I think it would be more important to organize that section, e.g., by grouping all of the content about Canada in adjacent paragraphs. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:45, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Routes of administration: Add a "Nasal administration" sub-section

And copy/paste Nasal septum perforation 94.255.152.53 (talk) 18:49, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Harm reduction