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User talk:Stan Shebs/archive 4

Grand Admiral
I take back all the bad things I said about you behind your back! :-) User:Husnock

Medal of Honor
You wrote on Talk:Medal of Honor that it's called "Cong'l"
 * because Congress has to approve the awards specially, unlike others which need only be approved by SecDef or lower

If you have a ref for that, plz visit Talk:Medal of Honor again. --Jerzy 20:19, 2004 Jan 5 (UTC)

It misses some. I've always been of the opinion that to be a town, a place requires a) a post office, b) a church, c) a bar. :) - Hephaestos 22:20, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)

We're voting on naming conventions for peers at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Peerage, if you want to participate. john 06:22, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Ships of the US Navy
Oh no trouble at all... I was eating and Wiki'ing at the same time, while at work. I'm gonna do a bunch tonight. - UtherSRG 22:06, 15 Jan 2004 (UTC)
 * Well I finally finished them. Thanks for the help, but I still had to go through each letter and look at all the 'disamb' pages and grab more data form them (as well as update a few of them. Wheee! *grins* - UtherSRG 04:46, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Sorry on the consuls. I'll revert if it's not been already reverted. john 02:48, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Yeti disagreement
I would appreciate your input on talk:Yeti. Thanks! - UtherSRG 01:31, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Fishes
Curse you Red Baron! *grins* Stop adding things I want to then go look up and add more info to. I want to go to bed!!! *grins* Ah... the fun I'll have tomorrow.... - UtherSRG 06:22, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Appius Claudius
Hi Stan, I was just wondering what the "PW 132" (and the other PW numbers) mean in the Appius Claudius article. I'm sure I've seen them somewhere else too, but I forget where...and I couldn't figure out what they were referring to. Adam Bishop 00:56, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * Thanks! My university's library seems to have the whole PW, although not in English, unfortunately. By the way, I noticed you had List of ancient Greeks on your page, I'd be interested in helping to start that...I'm not sure what you would want to include as "Greek" though...it seems much more complicated than a list of Romans! Adam Bishop 23:40, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Lupin/lupine/lupinus
Hi Stan, I have just been adding a bush lupin page, and searching for things that might need linking, I see you have lupin/lupine/lupinus down on your to-do list. You might want to have a look at that page (and at lupin) to see if I have made things any better - or worse. seglea 09:06, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)

RN Ships & Stations
Stan- Thanks for the content on HMS Halcyon. Some kid is posting stubs to various RN ships. I came across a few of them and used Google-searches to make some sort of minimal improvements. Thanks for your efforts. I suggest this area might need a lot more of your help. Also, your talk page is getting too big. Propose you prune it a bit.

Paul, in Saudi

Stan-I discovered this unknown (and unregistered) contributer has started a stub on HMS Gibraltar. I added a darn little to it an appeal to you for help. I also, for the first time included a photo which came out overlarge. Could you give it a look?

I am about to retreat from the realm of RN Ships and retreat back to military codewords. Thanks,

Paul, in Saudi

Can you please delete Awolf002? I accidently created it instead of his userpage as a new user linked to it on my talk page. Sennheiser!

Cetomimiformes
Thank you! One could say I'm building upon the framework you and others before me have already laid down. I tend to be wordy in my writeups, it seems, so I'm glad you've enjoyed them.

I noticed the problematic placement of the Cetomimiformes while researching them (very scant info available online, sadly) but decided FishBase's placement must be the most current one(?). I've done as you suggested and made mention of the alternate placement within the Stephanoberyciformes, so hopefully potential confusion has been mitigated. I don't know if it's just Nelson who places the whalefishes that way, therefore I've gone with the safe phrasing "Some authorities...". Taxa is rather fun, in a befuddling sort of way. ;) Hadal 05:19, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Arcade
Thanks for writing the Arcade article. I've been meaning to get to that for a long time, but never quite managed to do it. —Mulad 19:08, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)

172
I've been having a little back and forth with User:172 in Hcheney 23:11, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Ancient Greeks
Hi Stan, I made up a List of ancient Greeks...hopefully it's close to what you had envisioned. I'm sure there are hundreds of people I missed...I also wasn't sure whether to include really ancient semi-mythological people, or all the kings and archons of Athens who are nothing more than names. But there is now a list to work with, at least! Adam Bishop 03:45, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * Sure, extending it to later antiquity is fine, I just arbitrarily picked 200 or so to give myself less work :) Adam Bishop 05:30, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * Also a good point...I cut and paste most of the descriptions, which is why they are usually linked. Ah well. Anyway, if we include people up to about 600, that would bring in a lot of Christian writers, and even some very late Roman/early Byzantine people, would it not? Adam Bishop 05:44, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * They are MS Word dashes...they probably should be regular hyphens. To fix that I think you'd have to copy the whole thing to Notepad or something, find/replace them all, and copy it back into the article. Adam Bishop 05:55, 17 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I was thinking of not editing the page for awhile - everytime I add 8 or 10 new people, I almost immediately find another 8 or 10 and have to edit it all over again. I was going to make a list of all the new people I find, and add them after a couple of days. So, you can do what you want to it until, say, Friday afternoon :) Adam Bishop 19:21, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Hi, for the Paideia site. I need to add information under the Term Arete. Arete goes to a mythological figure. I am wondering how that can be seperated to two different wikipedia names. I am a novice. You are more skilled than I am. An extensive article on Arete shouldn't go under the mythological name. Can you solve conundrum.WHEELER 17:05, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Got a second problem, I will be adding the cultural meaning of the golden mean under that title. But it is redirected to Golden Ratio. I need to put also extensive material under that heading and i am wondering about the technical aspects. Need your expertise.WHEELER 17:09, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Got another question. Need Classical definition and category assistance on the Golden Mean. I was going to start a "starter" paragraph under Paideia to segue to the golden mean. But I got to thinking, does it go there Or do I start a "Greek Spirit", that is Edith Hamilton's tone and direction. and then segue the major body of the golden mean to its supposed to site. Questions Questions.WHEELER 17:39, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Or do I put a section under Paideia called "Greek Spirit"? Or am i being anal rententive?WHEELER 17:47, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Got another question. Paideia is spelled in many different ways. The Golden mean is under different names and Kalos Kagathos can be said Kalokagathia. Should I be making a bunch of redirect sites so people using google can find this information better? WHEELER 14:58, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I have ended the redirect of Western culture to Western world and have been giving substance to Western culture. I was thinking of melding the section "Western thought" from Western World into Western culture. Please notify me. Thanks.WHEELER 00:29, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Bureaucrat status
There's a new class of users who can turn other users into sysops. This could previously only be done by developers (such as myself). These users are called "bureaucrats". I've picked a few users from Administrators who I think would make good bureaucrats, and you're one of them. Please don't take that as an insult. ;-)

Do you want to be a bureaucrat? If you say yes, I expect you to keep an eye on Requests for adminship and turn users into sysops in accordance with community consensus.—Eloquence 04:24, Feb 17, 2004 (UTC)

query
Stan, I would be interested in your opinion on something. On the page Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions Eclecticology declared that holding a vote on the matter of formatting initials was "an abuse of the voting process to attempt to impose the Tyranny of the Majority." On the one hand I appreciate that not every issue can be settled here by means of a vote, but it would seem to me that people are well-qualified to judge an essentially aesthetic matter. What does this "tyranny of the majority" argument imply? That people as a rule are too ill-informed to make "correct" judgements on such matters??? Troubling implications... -- Viajero 09:45, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Suwannee
Ack! I usually do include a link to the source; you'll notice I do it with all my other images. I simply forgot to this time round (I've since included it). The image is from the Gainesville office of the USGS, so I just assumed.. which, I know, is a dangerous thing to do. I've removed reference to the town. Sorry. :\ -- Hadal 05:43, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * Whew.. I'm thankful we've vigilant factcheckers like you around to catch my blunders. :) Cheers, - Hadal 05:58, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Disambiguating Rivers
We are having a discussion on river names at WikiProject Rivers. I would appreciate any comments. Rmhermen 21:22, Feb 21, 2004 (UTC)

OEDs
Ever get the urge to put ancient usage notes from the OED in wiktionary? I know I would if I had one handy... I figure anyone with his own OED can't be all bad. +sj+ 23:28, 2004 Feb 21 (UTC)

Yellow Pigs
I figure anyone with his own OED can't be all bad. Come vote on YPD on Votes for undeletion so it can be restored and we can put up a proper YPD page; there isn't a page anywhere online that gives a back-history more than 25 years old... and it would be an excellent place to put some of the extensive 17 trivia that might not be 'important' enough to go on the official page. (# of trees Dosteovsky could see out of his window while he was in prison, &c.) +sj+ 23:28, 2004 Feb 21 (UTC)
 * Looking better now, I reckon! Do add any anecdotes from your past... +sj+ 09:44, 2004 Mar 5 (UTC)

invitation
Please see Talk:American twenty dollar bill. You get this invitation because your name appears in Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (US vs American). Feel free to ignore if you are disinterested. - Optim 05:14, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

MediaWiki Messages for Ships
I've put a couple of new MediaWiki messages into circulation. One of them is for DANFS, and the other is an experiment with the Iowa class battleships. Please let me know what you think. David Newton 23:09, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * I've now gone way beyond the Iowa class ships with new messages. I've covered all the US battleship classes except for the abortive South Dakotas that were terminated by the Washington Treaty. I've also dealt with the Alaska class large cruisers and imported DANFS text for those that didn't have it already. BTW, did you know the the NHC now has a complete copy of DANFS online? David Newton 07:44, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * The Epopt, who I also let know about the MediaWiki messages seems to approve of things. He's created one on the Tang class submarines. He's also suggested that we leave off USS from the ships to save space. I can't see any enormous problems with that from a practical point of view. David Newton 19:57, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

How's the work on the Reagan years coming? Do you want me to list some more sources at Talk:History of the United States (1980-1988), or do you have enough for now? If you're seeking quick access to data online, my user page might also contain some relevant links. 172 06:38, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

New Table Markup for Ships
Stan, I'm not sure whether you're aware or not, but recently a new table markup system has been introduced. I have altered the two standard tables for the RN and USN on my page so that they use the new formatting. From now on, whenever I add a table to an article, I will use the new format. It is a good deal easier to use than the old one I would say. David Newton 23:41, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * Stan, what exactly do you mean by the question which of the new format tables would be a good exemplar for cloning? David Newton 19:57, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Look here Standard Tables. David Newton 01:12, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Lenin tomb
Thanks for raising the issue Mrdice 22:03, 2004 Feb 26 (UTC)

USAF Museum

 * http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/warn.htm . If you've secured permission via their process, then the image page should say so. In practice, many photos of experimental planes are also at NASA sites, you can get them from there.

I seemed to me it they said it would be okay in this context. However, I'll take the images off the article until I can get specific clarification from them. Thanx!!! serak 20:57, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Object file formats
Hi. You have this on your todo list, although there is an existing object file format which redirects to object file that contains a list of formats. RedWolf 05:18, Mar 5, 2004 (UTC)

-- Good comments on Talk:Kim Jong Il. BTW, how's the Reagan stuff going? Do want any more sources on the Reagan years? Perhaps you could narrow the request down to a more specific focus this this time. 172 12:04, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)

- Dear Stan, since our friend Great disappeared without further discussion, i took the liberty to reorganize the Ancient Rome directory, now in List of Ancient Rome-related topics. I included all the new topics. Criticism is (as always) welcome. Cheers, Muriel 11:45, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

USS Topeka
OK, I understand. Sorry. --Monsieur Mero 00:12, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)

- Hey Stan, think you've done some great work, but please, the biography of Bill Gates is not the place to put in your obvious bias for open source software. The word changes I made were subtle. Please keep them that way.

---

Thanks for the Isenberg reference on my talk page. I took a look at the related articles, which seem to be coming along nicely. As a reader (who's very much of a novice on these topics), I've been finding your recent work pretty helpful. Btw, I guess that we can restart the work on History of the United States once we're not so busy with the other projects. 172 12:36, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

- You think that the assassination of the Sheikh Ahmed Yassin is a good idea!??? He's far more of a danger to Israelis dead than alive. This was the best thing that could've happened to him! A blind guy in a wheelchair was taken out of his misery, and his cause was greatly strengthened. For crying out loud, he was a figurehead, not someone engaged in - or even capable of being engaged in - operational matters. Unlike Osama bin Laden or Ayman al-Zawahri, he lacked any logistical know-how that made him indispensable. Instead of merely soiling himself and spewing his senile ramblings, his "martyrdom" will greatly enhance Hamas' steady stream of recruits. Sharon even managed to alienate the Bush administration, not giving them the heads up needed for the official statements immediately afterwards. The effect on relations w/ the EU, UN, Egypt, Jordan, Russia, etc. are so obvious that they don't even warrant mentioning. And how much do you want to bet that the wave of violence is going to escalate? The human toll goes without mentioning. Less noticed in the Western media, this will further cripple Israel's significant but depressed tourism industry, along with foreign investment in general. Meanwhile, unemployment's hovering around 12% and poverty's hovering around 20% - the highest levels in over two decades as the Likud is privatizes much of the country's huge state sector and slashes state-sector jobs and wages. I don't see why the Palestinian extremists won't be able to survive another 5-10 years of Intifada. But if Israel fails to take its losses as soon as possible, I cannot imagine how Israel's economy will stay clear of anything short of an Argentina-style default. Dangerous schisms among the Jewish population itself, dividing, e.g., rich and poor, secular and religious, native and foreign born, and Middle Eastern Jew and European Jew are also looming. They need to bring back Shimon Peres ( http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040322/wl_mideast_afp/mideast_unrest_yassin_040322152858 ), but Labor's sadly so impotent. Anyway, good day and sorry for the rant. 172 09:46, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

On the thorny issue of the DLG/DLGN/CG/CGN status, I was generally working to the rule that the destroyer leader nomenclature should be applied to ships up to about 1970 and cruiser nomenclature thereafter. The break point I chose was the USS Truxton, which was the last ship to spend any time with a DL designation. Pretty much everything after then either had the DLG designation for virtually no time at all as a commissioned vessel or was redesignated before being commissioned. I know that Truxton spent a lot more time as a CGN, but I feel the ship spent enough time as a DLGN to be 'known' as one. Either way, there are active redirects that will lead someone who searchs for CGN-35 to Truxton anyway. That's something I felt was particularly important.

The recent spate of anonymous IP creations of ship articles showed a fundamental misunderstanding of the Wikipedia. There were several articles that I had to merge and then create the appropriate redirects for. The DD and DDG series is another problem, furthing impinging on the DL series again The US designation system around the dawn of the missile age is quite horrendous!

On another, related note, I believe I've now got MediaWiki footers for every active ship class in the Royal Navy and also the Royal Fleet Auxiliary. However, there are substantial gaps in the USN coverage, including the OHP frigates, the amphibious assault ships and the remaining commissioned auxiliaries. David Newton 14:02, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Thumbnails
Hi! No, I don't have any sense of graphic design at all :-( I'll try to keep away from the stamps in the future. But, was the "large version" link really that much better? Maybe an alternate thumbnail design would be in order? Like "...|thumb|transparent|..."? --Magnus Manske 15:42, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Well, most people seem to like the thumbnails; I do, too (obviously), for the simple syntax and unified look. IMHO these are Good Things (TM). I think there's a vote somewhere for the thumbnail appearance, so if you don't like the gray, just vote for something else - or better yet, make your own proposal! --Magnus Manske 20:59, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback on fishes with electric organs (as well as bicycles :-)). The comic effect was clearly a collaborative effort you shared with the creator of the redirect.  By all means convert the redirect into a disambig if you prefer the original wording. -- Alan Peakall 18:34, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Nice catch with the vandalism by 66.248.57.190 - there is more by that IP, subtle changes from WWII to WWI. Sorry - just a newbie myself, can you do the reverts? Wikiwizzy

--- Please see my response to your comments on Talk:Kim Jong-il posted here. I'm honestly sick of that feud with Adam. It must be a gross annoyance to users who want to work on an encyclopedia rather than settle scores with people they've never met. So on one hand, I want to back way from that silly blood feud. On the other, I feel that I have to defend myself from his slander and misrepresentation, and point out Adam's pattern of abuse of other users. I seem to be failing miserably when it comes to accomplishing both ends at once. I'd greatly appreciate it if you read my response and gave me some feedback. Anyway, sorry for the hassle. Hopefully, at least you got a few laughs out of this pointless episode. BTW, I know what you're thinking, and it does looks like you've been right all along about the "professionals" on WP. Since I'm asking for help, at least I ought to grudgingly admit something. 172 07:41, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Kerry Jewish->Jews
I was about to revert the anonymous first edit Jewish->Jews, but you beat me to it and I was wondering whether you saw the same thing I did--both "Jews" and "Jewish" is factually accurate but "Jew" is an objectification that has perjorative connotations in much of the world. I can't think of any other reason the poster made that change. Cecropia 06:47, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for copyediting my work on Overseas Sophie, i appriciate it --Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 12:32, 2004 Apr 12 (UTC)

Stamps
Thanks for the tip about adding US to the stamp filenames. :) jengod 03:36, Apr 19, 2004 (UTC)

Papua, West Papua
Hi Stan, great point that it was as "every Australian schoolboy knows". And when we (Australians) saw it happen a second time with East Timor, the national shame was repeated. We have tried but there are others who fight such publications.

Even now, Wik renames West_Papuan_Genocide to Attacks_in_West_New_Guinea yet its Wik who had just renamed West_Papau to Papua_(Indonesia) and changed Hollandia to Jayapura, so I wondered and looking at Wik's contributions I find they are all just wiki-fying articles, excepting ones against Islam like Hamas where Wik removes the fact that a speaker is the 'Top Hamas official' .. which has affect of making him sound like some un-informed John in a street somewhere.

The only other content I've found Wik edit has been every West Papua related article, all of which might not reflect well upon certain interests. I am now seriously wondering if Wiki is not employed full time to vet every Wikipedia article and tonning down undesirable ones. And by modifying every article read, Wik would have a record of work done for employer. Hopefully not, hopefully Wik is just a person who can spend week after week doing Wiki edits.

Meanwhile West_Papua article gets bounced around like a ball.

BTW about West Papua wanting Indonesia? Papuans were 90% Christian, 100% Melanesian (as in Australian Aboriginal who've lived in the Pacific for past 40,000 years. As in they are also black in complexion); so why would they EVER entertain the concept of inviting a Islamic militant Asian race from Java who believe Papuans are an inferrior race of infidels?

But that's common sense, it's politically incorrect to mention in the public. Daeron 05:37, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

"Soviets" for the collective of different nationalities of the Soviet Union
I've changed your notion of the Soviets in the Great Patriotic War article. I hope you don't get offended, and that you believe my serious incentives. Of course I know that English is not my mother tongue. --Ruhrjung 19:00, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

See your stamps again
I see your contributions, first on the Zululand page, which has, with all things Zulu, blossomed :-) and now on Talk:Rhodesia. Wizzy 18:53, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Tompkinsville
Thanks for pointing out that duplicate article. The Tompkinsville, New York form is definitely improper, as it hasn't been an indepedent town for well over 100 years, but it definitely is current neighborhood of Staten Island. The last remaining towns were abolished in 1898, but I think Tompkinsville ceased to exist officially before that. Like a lot of places, the unofficial usage lingers on. It should definitely be a redirect to the current neighborhood. I'll move the naval base ref over that. I had actually always thought of the naval base as being in the Stapleton neighborhood, just to the south, but I guess I was incorrect, based on those naval history articles. Again, thanks for the heads up. -- Decumanus | Talk 05:05, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Papua, and so forth
Hey Stan, thanks for your intervention at the Papua page. If nothing else, that you seem to mostly agree with me gives me greater confidence that I'm not turning into a Wik-like insta-reverter, or something. When reading constant lengthy posts where I have little real idea what the relevance of the points being made by my opponent are, one is left with having to decide whether it is oneself, or one's opponent, who is not making sense. Your comments lead me towards feeling that it's probably not me, although perhaps neither of us is making any sense at this point. So, at any rate, I don't feel like further discussion by me with Daeron is of any use, and I've requested mediation. We'll see how that goes. john 06:12, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

Check out Daeron's comments at User_talk:Jmabel. I've been accused of plagiarism for putting back in some stuff that he had added in one of his versions. We both seem to be being accused of anti-semitism, although I'm not certain of that. Ga! john 16:22, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

Vocabulary Project
Hi there, I just read an insightful comment of yours at the Vietnam page, and since now you will have a lot more time, not watching modern history any longer, I thought with your skills in foreign languages and programming you would be the perfect guy to work with in a project I describe on my user page. Would you mind taking a look and telling me at my talk page what you think about it? Get-back-world-respect 21:47, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

RfC
Sorry to bother you, but I was wondering if you could take a look at Requests for comment/VeryVerily and Requests for comment/172 (and maybe even Requests for review of administrative actions). My conflict with 172 has again become a public matter. I know that you have had experiences with 172 similar to my own, and as I'm facing possible arbitration, it would really be helpful if more voices could provide the context for my actions. (I'm not saying you necessarily would agree with those actions, but you would I hope agree with my characterization of the conflict.) Thanks, VV 23:21, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

Next time, I will respond more politely if we can respectfully disagree on changes we make to articles, without passing negative character judgments. I was not impressed by your decision to bring this up on pages launched by users who, IMHO, are beneath you. 172 04:44, 24 May 2004 (UTC) 172 03:44, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

I like the sentiments of your posting, but a small but vocal minority of these users beats people with their crutches, mugs them, and mucks up articles. What do you do in situations like that? 172 05:34, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

I enjoyed reading the last posting you'd sent me. I only doubt one key assumption in particular: that everybody can be persuaded-- especially when dealing with ideologues. For example, this clearly demonstrates that resolving the dispute is impossible; instead, the two options are winning a fight or losing it. 172 07:29, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

Just wanted to note of your conversation with 172 that you should not be taken in by one of his premises, that this is a case of an ignorant user being mistreated by a knowledgeable one. I think if you look at the content in the two edit wars in question, you will see there is nothing ignorant about the changes I made. Of course, you are correct he should not be abusive in either case. And thanks for the sainthood comment! I'm glad someone else noted the asymmetry between how 172 treats users and what he calls "personal attacks" on him. VV 21:34, 25 May 2004 (UTC)
 * This is a perfect example of VV's passive aggressive obsession with me that I was talking about. Perhaps most of the edits in his user history are like this one, with VeryVerily going from talk page to talk page, user talk page to user talk page, and article to article to provoke revert wars with me and then play innocent and try to discredit me. 172 22:37, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

Disneyland past attractions
Saw that you had touched the disneyland article (xlate to It! wow--): I started working on List of past Disneyland attractions from memory but it's way too late and I've spent too much time and I'm going to bed. Elf | Talk 06:41, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the latest reply. But I know that I've exhausted all the options regarding the discussion of the Pinochet intro with him. I'm just going to try to avoid him from now on. 172 09:31, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

List of Ancient Egyptians Move
I understand why you moved list of Ancient Egyptians to list of ancient Egyptians; you thought it was a violation of house style. However, it is not. In this usage Ancient is a noun as well as an adjective (see: Ancient Egypt). The same capitlization rule applies to New Yorker or Costa Rican. New and Rica (Rich) are both adjectives but they are also nouns in these particular usages, and therefore are capitlaized. The article refers to the people of Ancient Egypt, the proper noun we use to refer to Kemet or to a large extent (but not exact) Pharaonic Civilization in respect to modern or Islamic Egypt.

I will not move the page back until you have had a chance to respond.

-JCarriker 18:34, May 30, 2004 (UTC)

 * I have posted a response to your rationale here.
 * -JCarriker 06:15, May 31, 2004 (UTC)

Won't edit articles I've been working on, huh? You're still going around with a chip on your shoulders. Yet, overall, I have been more fair and reasonable to you than you have been to me over the past year and a half. When I disagree with you, I do so read such disagreements as evidence of flaws in your character and personality. In contrast, when you disagree with me on an edit to Vietnam War, you're filling out attacks on my character on RCF pages. What gives? You should be smart enough to realize that you've only had trouble dealing with me because of your own holier than thou attitude. 172 21:30, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

Here's some news. If you want sources, evidence, or explanations of my edits, make a straightforward request. Belittling me isn't going to get you anywhere, though. You don't need to respond to this posting, just do it next time. 172 22:10, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

You owe me an apology
I see you get off on kicking people while there down, huh? "No, he explains it right there where it's the people's fault for having 'poor worker productivity' even though the main agricultural areas had produced surpluses for export since ancient times."

Note the following from the article:

"Stalin's campaign of forced collectivization was a major factor explaining the [agricultural] sector's poor performance. In the new state and collective farms, outside directives failed to take local growing conditions into account. Also, interference in the day-to-day affairs of peasant life often bred resentment and worker alienation across the countryside (although some landless or poor peasants benefited from the process). The human toll was catastrophic. In the collective farms, low labor productivity was a consequence for decades to come."

If you have any sense of personal honor, you will apologize to me on the mailing list. 172 17:40, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * See also 172 16:23, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * So what is wrong with this, 172??? Past signs indicate that you have a poor understanding of stalinist Russia - and this seems to be the latest sign of this. Arno 08:03, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * Perhaps I'm forgetful, but I don't know who you are or to what you're referring. BTW, Stalinist Russia is not my area of expertise-- I'm not a specialist on Eastern Europe. But I still stand by my edits on the subject. 172 16:23, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Other things
Hi Stan, left you a message in Augustus. Anyway, i am out of here for a week or two and i need your help to have a look in Elagabalus. There is this user (who uses the interesting name of Leah Q) that is tryng to get the boy categorized as a Roman empress and change the pronouns to female. Based on research made by sexologists tthat Elagabalus was a transgender. Have fun! Muriel G 17:29, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Tacitus
It was all very complicated. Essentially, Tacitus used to be a disambiguation page between the historian and the emperor. Then it got changed to a redirect. My opinion is that Tacitus should pretty clearly be the article where the historian is, with a disambiguation notice at the top about the Emperor. So I moved Tacitus to Tacitus (old), Then deleted Tacitus and moved Gaius Cornelius Tacitus to Tacitus. I'm not sure if anything weird happened beyond that. john '''k 05:18, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Clipper
Do you intend to fix all the "what links here" links that are actually for the disabiguation pages, or do we have to dig in? Rick Boatright 20:31, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

ToL and Categories
Please weigh in: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Tree_of_Life

Weird edit bug?
Stan, you seem to be logged in now, I was wondering if you could help me figure out a strange editing problem. I was editing the External links section in Marshall, Texas, I viewed preview a few times and made soem tweaks to the link I added. I saved the edit at 04:47. When I did I noticed that the only section of the page that was ther was external links. At first I thought I must have pushed preview rather than save, and thus was viewing only the one section, but I realized it had deleted the rest of the article.

I have repaired the damage, but it's still strage. The history shows that I blanked the entire page at 04:44. Yet, I only was editing the External links section. Section edits aren't suppose to effect other parts of the page yet it the history "shows" that I blanked the page. I'm wondering if it may have been a bug related to the strage bold and italic text that seems to be currently proliferating in wikipedia. I've checked the edit made within the same minute and there doesn't seem to be a related incident. What do you think?

-JCarriker 05:24, Jun 15, 2004 (UTC)

 * Thanks. Is all text bold, and so all titles look like bad 80's computer fonts or is it just me?
 * -JCarriker 05:53, Jun 15, 2004 (UTC)
 * It is a server problem, but it is related to wiki. My Mozilla works fine, and so does my internet explorer that is until it goes to wiki and then every thing in that window is bold from then on. A more disturbing fature is that it blacks out the icons. The bolding effects both yahoo and google after visiting wiki. I'm going to log off and try to clean my computer and see if that helps. Can you look into this matter further for me? Please e-mail with anything you find out. I'll also try to find some screen shot software so you can see what's happeing.
 * -JCarriker 06:15, Jun 15, 2004 (UTC)

 * I beleive there are two seperate issues, the Marshall "bug" which is a problem with wikipedias software and the "bolded" bug which I think is a problem with my archaic machine. I'm using Mozilla as my primary browser at the moment. Thanks for the advice. Oh, have you had a chance to glance at the Cicero bio I recoommended at Talk List Ancient Egyptians? If your still interested I'm willing to provide an excerp.
 * -JCarriker 08:02, Jun 15, 2004 (UTC)

Article with missing history

 * from the pump

Dunno if this is a software bug or what, but imagine my surprise on seeing my watchlist report that Ships of the Royal Netherlands Navy has been changed by an anon, then clicking on the diff only to find that it's a new article! Of course, without history, there's only my word that it's not new, but then how did it get on my watchlist? Stan 16:21, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * It is possible to add article to your watchlist which don't exist yet. Another possiblity is that you added the article to your watchlist, it was deleted and now recreated. However I cannot see any deleted revisions of that article either, so this must have happened before the last purge of the deleted articles. Or it may of course be a database glitch which made the database forget the previous edits. andy 16:26, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * However as that article didn't show up on Special:Newpages, a database problem becomes more likely. andy 20:12, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * No, the article definitely existed previously, that's why I was watching it. Presumably the history has to be restored from backups somehow? Is there any way to know if more than the one article was affected? Stan 21:52, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * According to the history of Ships of the Royal Netherlands Navy, it was created on June 3. However, thefreedictionary.com have this article, and their copy appears to be older than June 3 as they don't have a copy of HNMS Jacob van Heemskerk which was created March 29th. There have been other weird things going on with page histories on wikitech-l. I don't know if this is related. Angela. 00:55, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Etheldreda
Thanks for fixing that! I wouldn't even know how to make the AE character to begin with. ;) --Puffy jacket 10:51, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing the Merchant Marines article
I hand't found the "United States Merchant Marine" article because I was looking for Merchant Marines. Thanks for the correction.

Businessmen
Hi, I put Aaron Montgomery Ward in category Category:Salespeople, this article was currently the only one in Category:Businessmen. There is nothing that stops anyone from creating Category:Businesspeople. I got a question of why I created category:businessmen from User:Tagishsimon, and I think his suggestion of creating category:businesspeople would probably be a better idea anyway if this category is to be kept. -- Fuelbottle | Talk 03:59, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I created Category:Businessmen and just after I created it I got the a message from User:Tagishsimon about the name, so I removed the article I had added and added to it shortly after, this was before you had put Aaron Montgomery Ward in that category. I have now created Category:Businesspeople, so it can be discussed there. Fuelbottle | Talk 04:11, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hey, I'm sorry if anything I did upset you... Fuelbottle | Talk

I have put my request to Undelete *National Socialism* on the Wikipedia:Votes for undeletion page. Andy deleted it, redirected it and then put it some of the material onto the Nazism article. I feel he didn't use procedure as an administrator. I ask for your support.WHEELER 17:26, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Greek mythology
Per your thoughts on the Discussion page, look at the "Interpreters" subsection and see who's left out. Some critiques, especially of Bulfinch, edith Hamilton, Frazer etc might be in order. Any external links? A big topic, eh. Wetman 05:35, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Battle of Bosworth.
Greetings Stan: I had wondered where that bit of info. ~(Talk:Battle_of_Bosworth_Field) had gone, I blame those busy little wikifairies!!!, glad you find it of some use though, but it does need cleaning up a tad! I would prefer to merge it with the main item...

If you visit my user page you will find several other pages on battles I have contributed, I hoped at some stage to contact a Battle project editor to see if these might be included...I dont really want the Bosworth stuff on wikipedia, but their it is, so it will be changed at some stage to reflect my concerns over my own copyright, as I uploaded it as is without giving the fullest of consideration to the copyright.

Thanks again Faedra 17:54, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Vote for deletion
Simonides has placed this Early National Socialism/draft up for deletion. There is material there not covered anywhere else. I ask for your *keep* vote.WHEELER 23:11, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:Stan Shebs/archive 4


text: Category:National Football League

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Category:National Football League


text:
Bobby Wallace (baseball)

Roderick John "Bobby" Wallace (November 4, 1873 – November 3, 1960) was an American Major League Baseball infielder, pitcher, manager, umpire, and scout. Wallace claimed to have invented the continuous throwing motion as a shortstop.

Career
Wallace was born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. He made his major league debut in 1894 as a starting pitcher with the Cleveland Spiders. After a 12–14 record in 1895, Wallace played outfield and pitcher in 1896. In 1897, Wallace was an everyday player as he became the team's full-time third baseman, batted .335 and drove in 112 runs.

In 1899, Wallace moved to the St. Louis Perfectos (renamed the Cardinals in 1900) and changed position to shortstop. He hit .295 with 108 RBI and 12 home runs (second in the league behind Buck Freeman's 25). Wallace changed teams again in 1902, when he joined the St. Louis Browns.

His playing time began decreasing a decade later, with his last season as a regular coming in 1912. Wallace played in just 55 games in 1913, and never played that much again for the rest of his career. In July 1917, he returned to the National League and the Cardinals, and played in just eight games that season. After batting .153 in 32 games in 1918, Wallace retired with a .268 career batting average, 1059 runs, 34 home runs, 1121 RBI and 201 stolen bases. He played his last game on September 2, 1918, at the age of 44 years and 312 days, making him the oldest shortstop to play in a regular-season game. The record was broken by Omar Vizquel on May 7, 2012.

Wallace was generally recognized as the AL's best shortstop from 1902 to 1911, when he served briefly as Browns player-manager. After moving from third to short, Wallace felt he'd found his place in the infield earning the nickname "Mr. Shortstop". He would also claim to have invented the continuous throwing motion, “As more speed afoot was constantly demanded for big league ball, I noticed the many infield bounders which the runner beat to first only by the thinnest fractions of a second.. I also noted that the old-time three-phase movement, fielding a ball, coming erect for a toss and throwing to first wouldn’t do on certain hits with fast men…it was plain that the stop and toss had to be combined into a continuous movement.”

He played for 25 seasons, and holds the record for the longest career by a player who never played in a World Series.

When his playing time diminished, Wallace managed and umpired. He managed the St. Louis Browns in 1911 and 1912 and the Cincinnati Reds during part of the 1937 season. He compiled 62 wins and 154 losses for a .287 winning percentage as a major league manager. He also managed the minor league Wichita Witches in 1917. He umpired in the American League in 1915, working 111 games. Upon retiring, he also became a scout.

Later life
Wallace was inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame in 1953.

Wallace died on November 3, 1960, in Torrance, California, one day shy of his 87th birthday.

title: Bobby Wallace (baseball)


text: User talk:144.138.21.4

title: User talk:144.138.21.4


text:
Citizens Advice

Citizens Advice (previously Citizens Advice Bureau and also known as Cyngor ar Bopeth in Welsh ) is an independent organisation specialising in confidential information and advice to assist people with legal, debt, consumer, housing and other problems in the United Kingdom.

The twin aims of the Citizens Advice service are "to provide the advice people need for the problems they face" and secondly "to improve the policies and principles that affect people's lives". This research and campaigns agenda also known as "social policy" is more preventative in nature and designed to stop problems arising in the first place.

Citizens Advice organisations emerged in the 1930s linked to the emergence of a fledgling social welfare service and the outbreak of World War II. Public funding for the organisation was cut following the war but restored during the 1960s and a government grant in 1973 allowed the National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux (NACAB) to expand the charity. Citizens Advice has grown to be the largest independent advice provider in the United Kingdom. There are also a number of Citizens Advice organisations that base themselves on the United Kingdom advice charity mainly in parts of the Commonwealth including Australia, New Zealand, and Gibraltar.

In 2013 the Citizens Advice Adviceguide website was visited by one third of United Kingdom's online population and Citizens Advice's own research shows that four in ten of the British population contact Citizens Advice at some point during their lives. In 2014 Citizens Advice celebrated its 75th anniversary and in 2015 the charity was named Charity of the Year at the 2015 Charity Awards. During the ten year leadership of the former Chief Executive Gillian Guy Citizens Advice expanded its remit taking on the contract for the Witness Service and the face-to-face advice element of Pension Wise.

Origins
The origins of the modern Citizens Advice service can be traced back to the Betterton Report on Public Assistance from 1924. This report recommended that advice centres should be set up to offer members of the public advice to help them with their problems. During the 1930s, as preparations and plans were drawn up for the possibility of war, the role that the voluntary sector should have was determined. The National Council for Social Service (NCSS) called a meeting in 1938 in which plans to establish "Citizens Aid Bureaux" were devised in the event of war. The first 200 bureaux opened on 4 September 1939, four days after World War II started. Many of these initial bureaux were run by "people of standing" in the community. In The Story of The Citizens' Advice Bureaux Brasnett states that the typical bureau would include "a committee chairman the editor of a respected county paper, as treasurer a local bank manager; and among the members the manager of the employment exchange, an estate agent who was able to lend part of a house for offices". Brasnett also describes a range of groups running provincial bureau including Toc H, Rotary Clubs and Soroptomist Clubs. Brasnett states in The Story of the Citizens' Advice Bureau that these first bureau were mainly offshoots of established organisations in London and other large provincial cities. These organisations included the Charity Organisation Society (now the Family Action) and the London Council of Social Service, the Liverpool Personal Service Society, the City of Glasgow Society of Social Service, the Birmingham Citizens' Society (now the Birmingham Council of Social Service). By 1942, there were 1,074 bureaux in a wide range of improvised offices such as cafes, church halls, private homes and air-raid shelters. Sheffield set up in the cloisters of Sheffield Cathedral after its premises were bombed during World War II and another bureau worked in Chislehurst Caves. Mobile offices also became important in ensuring that people could access advice. Many of the issues dealt with during that time were directly related to the war. These included the tracing of missing servicemen or prisoners of war, evacuations, pensions and other allowances. The Independent describes Citizens Advice at this time as "clearing houses for family and personal problems that abound from war conditions", with common issues being lost ration books and debt issues as men went off to fight in World War II.

Post-war history
Many war time bureaux closed at the end of the war, although it was apparent that there was still a need for the services that had been established. A particular problem was the chronic housing shortage in the years immediately following the end of the war. In the 1950s, the funding was cut and by 1960 there were only 415 bureaux. The Citizens Advice service continued due to charitable support from groups such as the Nuffield Foundation, Carnegie Trust and the Joseph Rowntree Foundation. In 1972, The Citizens Advice service became independent. Before then, the national organisation was part of NCSS (National Council of Social Services) and most bureaux were run by the local CVS (Council for Voluntary Service). In 1973, the government funded NACAB, the National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux, to enlarge the network. The 1984 afternoon television drama series Miracles Take Longer depicted the type of cases that a 1980s branch would have to deal with. David Harker became CEO in 1997. He led Citizens Advice until 2010 and during that time oversaw a massive IT overhaul.

Since 2003, the operating name of the National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux changed to Citizens Advice and Citizens Advice Cymru or Cyngor ar Bopeth in Wales. In the same year Citizens Advice became the first advice sector organisation to begin to audit the quality of their advice. In 2008/9, there were 416 member bureaux offering advice from over 3,300 locations in England and Wales and a further 22 bureaux in Northern Ireland all of which are independent charities. Despite the large number of volunteers working for the organisation, level of demand for the service often far outstrips resources. Citizens Advice has recently begun looking at ways to reach all members of the community through new mediums such as email advice and digital TV. Another initiative has been allowing university students to train as advisers to gain credits toward their degree. This was pioneered by a partnership between the University of Portsmouth and Portsmouth Citizens Advice Bureau and is also now available at Birmingham City University, University of Reading, University of Northampton, Glasgow Caledonian University, and University of Glasgow. Training as a Citizens Advice adviser can earn a person up to six months off a training contract if training as a solicitor.

Recent history
Gillian Guy became Chief Executive in 2010 and under her leadership a modernisation process took place which involved a rebrand of the Citizens Advice service and the introduction of new advice methods including webchat. She was succeeded by Clare Moriarty in April 2021.

At the start of Guy's tenure Citizens Advice faced a budget cut of 9% however finances have recently improved with the charity increasing its income from £62m to £77m between 2013 and 2015. This is largely a result of Citizens Advice taking over roles that were previously performed by the quangos the Office of Fair Trading and Consumer Futures. During 2012 and 2013 Citizens Advice adopted an Equality Strategy known as 'Stand Up For Equality' which aims to embed an equality agenda in all work Citizens Advice does. In 2014 Citizens Advice took over the role that Victim Support played in supporting court witnesses. This contract is worth £24m. This service was renamed the Witness Service. Also in 2014 Citizens Advice took over the role of Consumer Futures (previously Consumer Focus) which represents consumers of regulated industries (energy and the postal service). In 2015 Citizens Advice began to deliver Pension Wise guidance. In 2015 Citizens Advice adopted a rebrand dropping the 'Bureau' from its name. The rebrand cost £1 million which includes £215,000 for research and development, £450,000 in financial support to implement the changes and £300,000 to cover local costs such as posters and materials. The rebrand was criticised by Steve Johnson the Chief Executive Officer of AdviceUK who described it as "facile". However, evidence from Citizens Advice focus groups found that while the charity was well known the brand was considered somewhat “tired” or “old fashioned”.

In 2019-20, the organisation's revenues were £139.1 million.

In 2015 Citizens Advice piloted a webchat service allowing people to contact Citizens Advice advisers online both via online instant messenger service and via e-mail. Data from 2015 showed that 7% of all enquiries to Citizens Advice were through the webchat service and 80,000 webchat enquiries were answered.

In 2016 Citizens Advice was featured in a BBC documentary called Battling with Benefits. It explored the work of Bridgend Citizens Advice in Wales and their work on issues such as the bedroom tax, Job Seekers' Allowance "sanctions" and appeals for Employment Support Allowance and Personal Independence Payment in light of the Conservative Government's cuts to the social security system.

Aims and principles
The Citizens Advice service in England and Wales, Northern Ireland, and Scotland is guided by four principles. These are:

 * A free service
 * Confidentiality
 * Impartiality
 * Independence

Although an independent and impartial organisation Citizens Advice has a peculiar relationship with Government in that it is dependent upon Government for funding but also acts as a high-profile critic of government policy. At a Citizens Advice conference in 1957 Lord Denning, then Lord Justice of Appeal described the complex relationship between Citizens Advice and the state describing how Citizens Advice was "supported indeed by the state, but not controlled by it; supported by local authorities but not controlled by them, and, I hope like the law, never to be controlled by any public authority".

All Citizens Advice Bureaux and workers for the bureaux must adhere to these principles, and bureaux must demonstrate that they adhere to these principles in order to retain membership of the national umbrella bodies. Citizens Advice state that their vision "is that everyone will be able to access free advice to find a way forward". They also state that their "charitable mission is to provide advice that helps people to overcome their problems and come together to campaign on big issues when their voices need to be heard".

Funding
The trade publication Third Sector state that around 60% of Citizens Advice funding comes from government sources. It has been argued that there is a tension in the relationship between Citizens Advice and government as while the charity relies on government funding to survive it is most effective as a high-profile critic of government policy. Local bureaux received funding of £167m in 2014. Although Citizens Advice is a national charity local bureaux are responsible for raising their own funding. Some of this may come from 'The Big Lottery Fund' which distributes money raised through the National Lottery for 'good causes,' from local authorities or from other services such as the Legal Services Commission. Citizens Advice suffered cuts during the recession flowing from the Global Financial Crisis and over 100 Citizens Advice offices have closed or lost as a result of merger since 2009. Others resorted to reduced services. Some Councils have been forced to cut funding for Citizens Advice services and these cuts led to complaints that Citizens Advice was not meeting growing needs for its services during a period of high demand. Newcastle Citizens Advice faced a threat of closure in 2016 after Newcastle Council proposed large cuts to its funding. In February 2016, Derby City Council decided that it would no longer fund the city's Citizens Advice, leaving Derby as the only city in the UK not to have a Citizens Advice Service, according to its CEO.

Both Citizens Advice and Citizens Advice Scotland are registered charities and are financed partly by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, although both organisations are completely independent of central government. Member bureaux also pay heavily subsidised subscriptions for the services offered. They often receive significant funding by local authorities, and local solicitors may agree to provide limited legal advice pro bono. In 2013 the then Consumer Minister Jo Swinson announced a further £9.5m in order for the charity to champion consumer work and in 2015 Martin Lewis founder of Money Saving Expert donated £1m to Citizens Advice. In 2016 it was announced that the money Martin Lewis donated would be used to create a fund called the 'Martin Lewis Fund' and this money would be used to improve front line services.

Advicework
Citizens Advice service's work involves providing advice on issues such as debt management and welfare benefits, housing, immigration, employment, consumer complaints and landlord-tenant disputes. Citizens Advice calculated that in 2016 it helped 2.7 million people with 6.3 million problems. There were also 48 million visits to their digital service.

Advice is available in the bureaux, but also in community venues, in people's homes, by phone, by e-mail and online both via a Webchat service and the Citizens Advice public site known as "Advice Guide". Figures from 2016 show that Citizens Advice has around 600 staff members in GP surgeries.

Telephone advice also known as Adviceline can be accessed in English and a bilingual service in Wales. One Citizens Advice page shows in real time what individuals are searching for on the website, what searches from the search engine Google caused an individual to reach the Citizens Advice page and what Citizens Advice website content is most popular. Citizens Advice also runs a consumer helpline to help with consumer issues. The most popular areas of enquiry are benefits and debt with housing the third most popular enquiry area. Each Citizens Advice office operates differently. Some will have specialist staff that deal with certain cases such as debt or housing. Some operate a 'Gateway' system which means clients are booked for advice at a later appointment and other Citizens Advice offer 'drop in' Generalist Advice sessions. At some Citizens Advice offices solicitors may offer short appointments on a pro bono basis as a way of gaining clients.

Citizens Advice has a number of advice partnerships with organisations in areas including money and partnership with Macmillan to help those affected by cancer. Citizens Advice has a partnership with the housing advice charity Shelter called the National Homelessness Advice Service which is able to offer advisers specialist housing and homelessness advice. The partnership is funded by the Department for Communities and Local Government. From 2015 Citizens Advice offices have been used to deliver Pension Wise guidance. Citizens Advice research shows that 25% of those who visit for a Pension Wise appointment go on to ask Citizens Advice for further advice on debts, benefits or tax.

Citizens Advice also engages in preventative work in order to prevent problems arising in the first place. Citizens Advice is the Government-funded provider of consumer education in Great Britain. There are 11 Consumer Empowerment Partnerships that work closely with Trading Standards. A financial capability agenda helps people to manage their money so as to not develop money problems in the first place. Citizens Advice also produces education resources to improve financial capability and consumer education. A Partnerships Intelligence Team works in order to support the work of regulators. One example of this is research on continuous payment authorities in order to help the Financial Conduct Authority better regulate them.

Research and campaigns
The Citizens Advice service, both locally and nationally, also uses clients' problems as evidence to influence policy makers to review laws or administrative practices which cause undue difficulties to clients, in a process referred to as "Social Policy". At a national level Citizens Advice engages in policy research in order to recommend policy changes. Current research areas include mental health domestic abuse, problems in the private rented sector, welfare, work, pensions, energy policy and the postal service.

A public affairs team works to influence Government both in Westminster and the devolved institutions. There is also a Citizens Advice All-Party Parliamentary Group that provides a forum for Members of Parliament who are interested in the work of Citizens Advice. Citizens Advice produces constituency data that can be used by Parliamentarians to improve how they complete their own case work. Advice Trends data is published at a national and local level. Consumer Advice Trends data is also published as is data for Wales alone and data on the performance of energy suppliers and the postal service.

Current campaigns include:
 * Settled and safe: a renter's right
 * Talk about abuse
 * Secure self-employment
 * Know your New Rights
 * Big Energy Saving Week 2015
 * Mad about the ad
 * Mental Health
 * Universal Credit

Impact
Citizens Advice measures the impact of its advice across a range of areas. Citizens Advice research has calculated that for every £1 spent on the Citizens Advice service the Government saves £1.96 and £8.74 in wider economic and social benefits and £11.98 in benefit to individuals. Research shows that Citizens Advice affects the most disadvantaged in society with Citizens Advice clients five times more likely to live in poverty than the average member of the United Kingdom population. Citizen Advice's own research has also shown that volunteering has positive benefits in terms of helping people gain practical skills and improving mental health. Each year 31% of Citizens Advice's volunteers leave the service for paid employment and it has been calculated that the work of Citizens Advice volunteers is worth £111 million. Citizens Advice's campaigns work has had a number of successes including the Financial Conduct Authority capping payday loans. A Twitter hashtag #CABlive is used to publicise the work of Citizens Advice on social media.

Advice and health improvement
Research conducted in 2016 found that 4 in 5 of Citizens Advice clients felt stressed, depressed or anxious and 3 in 5 clients felt their physical health had become worse as a result of their practical problem.

There is a growing body of evidence which shows that tackling practical problems through advice improves health and wellbeing. National Citizens Advice Impact research reports that 70% of clients said they felt less stressed and 46% said their physical health improve after advice. Of Citizens Advice clients experiencing long-term conditions, 57% said they were better able to manage their condition.

Citizens Advice has also investigated the impact that practical problems have on health professional's time. The research report "A Very General Practice" estimates that 19% of GP appointments are spent dealing with non-clinical problems. 98% of IAPT practitioners that responded to Citizens Advice research reported that they had dealt with a patient's non-health problems during an appointment in the past month and 57% reported the proportion of time they spend on non-health issues has increased compared to last year.

In 2016 Citizens Advice was appointed to the National Health and Wellbeing Alliance. Working with the Department of Health, NHS England, Public Health England and the 23 members of the Alliance, Citizens Advice uses its data and evidence to reduce health inequalities, which is one of the key aims of the Alliance.

Governance
A Trustee Board provides strategic direction and vision for the organisation. The Chief Executive working with the Executive Team is responsible for delivering the board's vision.

Below the Trustee Board a number of committees exist:

 * Chair's Committee
 * Audit Risk Committee
 * Equality Committee
 * Cymru Committee
 * Trustee Recruitment Committee
 * Membership and Standards Committee
 * Remuneration Committee
 * Technology Committee

Organisation
The Citizens Advice service is one of the largest volunteer organisations in the United Kingdom with 21,600 volunteers. The majority of these are part-time volunteer advisers, but the figure also includes trustees and administrators. While volunteers have varying levels of training, they are all required to receive basic training to ensure they fully understand the nature of the service including the four basic principles. Typically there will be a paid bureau manager, some paid advice session supervisors and in some cases some paid advisers. Some staff may be qualified to give specialist legal advice or to advise on immigration. Each Citizens Advice is an affiliated to the national organisation but they are managed and run locally. Many bureaux are also limited companies and may have a board of directors, who will also be the organisation's trustees. Bureaux throughout the United Kingdom have varying community needs and very different resources, and consequently offer different styles and levels of service. All bureaux in England, Wales and Northern Ireland are members of Citizens Advice, the operating name of The National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux. Northern Ireland bureaux are also members of the Northern Ireland Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux (NIACAB). Bureaux in Scotland are members of Citizens Advice Scotland (CAS), part of the Scottish Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux. Citizens Advice holds an Annual Conference each year. In 2015 this was held at the University of Warwick.

Citizens Advice and Citizens Advice Scotland act as umbrella bodies for the bureaux in the UK. They provide access to information, training courses and consultancy services for all bureaux, and regularly audit individual bureaux against the requirements of their respective membership standards. All bureaux try to ensure their services are accessible to all sections of the community, so that provision can be made for the housebound, immigrant communities, rural inhabitants, elderly and disabled as appropriate. Membership of Citizens Advice gives each bureau access to the national information portal, known as AdviserNet and to internet access provided through a Virtual Private Network. Information on clients' problems and the advice offered to them is entered into the Casebook national database. Its predecessor system was Petra and before that  CASE.

Citizens Advice has a number of diversity groups known as Self Organised Network Groups (SONGs). These include:

 * National Black Workers' Group
 * National Disabled Workers' Group
 * National Lesbian Gay and Bisexual Group
 * National Women's Group

Citizens Advice Scotland
Citizens Advice Scotland (CAS), formally the Scottish Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux (SACAB), is a registered charity. Based in Edinburgh it comprises 61 member bureaux, including a national helpline (Citizens Advice Direct). Together these free local and national services provide legal advice, practical help and information on consumer and political rights across the country. CAS provides central support to local bureaux with management, research, fundraising, IT support, training and campaigning. CAS launched a national helpline in 2005, called Citizens Advice Direct, staff were based in Glasgow city centre.

In 2012 a study showed that most of CAS's activity was the provision of advice across five areas: benefits, debt, employment, housing and relationship. In 2012, there were concerns that five of the bureaux in Glasgow might close, however they remained open after accepting a new funding offer. CAS has been registered as a charity since 3 August 1984, currently registered as a charitable company with the Office of the Scottish Charity Regulator (OSCR), Scottish charity number SC 016637. According to 2016 statistics Citizens Advice Scotland helped 300,000 clients and put £120 million into the pockets of people seeking help in 2015/16 and help reduce the amount owed by those seeking debt advice by £27 million.

Citizens Advice Northern Ireland
Citizens Advice Northern Ireland are now known as Community Advice. It is Northern Ireland's largest advice charity. There are advice services covering each council area. In Northern Ireland Citizens Advice advises over 95,000 people per year.

Citizens Advice Cymru
In Wales Citizens Advice Cymru has a network of 20 bureaux giving advice at 375 locations. According to the latest available statistics (2013/14) these bureau advised 134,000 clients and dealt with 337,000 advice issues. The Adviceline telephone service is bilingual and is able to offer advice in both English and Welsh.

In other nations
Organisations modelled on Citizens Advice have been created in other nations outside of the United Kingdom. All of these organisations are autonomous and are not in any way controlled by the British organisation although some have adopted the branding of the British Citizens Advice. The Citizens Advice Bureau serving Western Australia has 10 branches of Citizens Advice Bureau and uses the same branding as the British charity. New Zealand has over 80 Citizens Advice Bureau branches throughout the North and South Island. There is also a Spanish Citizens Advice Bureau organisation aimed at helping British expats in Spain and a Gibraltan Citizens Advice Bureau. An unrelated organisation Citizens Advice International was established in 2004 to promote free advice services and to promote Citizens Advice organisations throughout the world.

Notes and references
Notes

References

title: Citizens Advice


text:
Coat of arms of Toronto

The coat of arms of Toronto is a heraldic symbol used to represent the city Toronto. Designed by Robert Watt, the Chief Herald of Canada at the time, for the City of Toronto after its amalgamation in 1998. The arms were granted by the Canadian Heraldic Authority on 11 January 1999.

Description
The coat of arms can be described as follows: ''Or, a pale and a chief Azure. The crest: on a wreath of the colours, issuant from a mural coronet Or, masoned Sable charged with a human heart Gules between two roses Argent, buttoned Or, slipped proper, on a grassy mount Vert, a golden eagle statant, wings elevated and expanded proper. The supporters are: on the dexter, a beaver sejeant proper, collared with a torse Gules, therefrom on a hexagon Or an ash leaf Vert; on the sinister, a brown bear rampant proper, collared with a torse Gules, pendant therefrom a hexagon charged with a columbine flower proper. Both supporters are placed on a grassy mount from which at the base of the shield three wavy streams in pairle reversed Argent each surcharged with another Azure flow into a barry wavy 'lakefront', below which is placed a scroll with the motto Diversity Our Strength between two maple leaves Gules, veined Or, at the extremities of the scroll.''

The Canadian Heraldic Authority's official blazon of the coat of arms is:
 * Arms: Or a chief-pale Azure.
 * Crest: Issuant from a mural crown Or charged with a heart Gules between two roses Argent barbed Vert seeded Or, a mound Vert thereon a golden eagle wings raised proper.
 * Supporters: On a mound Vert rising above barry wavy Azure and Argent and charged with three pales wavy Azure fimbriated Argent, dexter a beaver proper gorged with a cord Gules pendant therefrom a hexagon Or charged with an alder leaf Vert, sinister a bear proper gorged with a cord Gules pendant therefrom a hexagon Or charged with a columbine flower Azure.
 * Motto: Diversity Our Strength.

The arms displayed on the shield are designed in a way that represents the two towers of Toronto City Hall and the capital letter T, as shown in the image of the arms. The three wavy streams beneath the shield represent the three rivers of Toronto: the Humber, the Don and the Rouge. The barry wavy 'lakefront' represents Lake Ontario.

Former coats of arms
The chain of office of the Mayor of Toronto includes the coats of arms or heraldic devices of all prior municipalities, including the Municipality of Metropolitan Toronto.

The coats of arms for the current City of Toronto government, the former City of Scarborough, and the former City of York are registered in the Canadian Heraldic Authority's Public Register of Arms, Flags and Badges of Canada. The former City of York was the only former municipality in Metropolitan Toronto to have a motto in Latin, while the mottoes of the other municipalities were in English.

Toronto
The former City of Toronto had a coat of arms prior to amalgamation in 1998, designed by William Lyon Mackenzie. The shield consisted of four quarters separated by a white cross charged with a red maple leaf. The first quarter was red and charged with three golden lions as an allusion to the coat of arms of England, the second quarter was blue with a white stylized rose to allude to York, the third quarter was blue with a white cog wheel for industry, and the fourth quarter displayed a steam boat in gold on red to represent the importance of the lake and waterways in and around the city. The crest was a beaver atop a gold mural crown; the mural crown represents Fort York. The supporters were a First Nations warrior (likely representing the local Mississaugas) with a bow (on the viewer's left), and the personification of Britannia with trident and shield painted with the Union Jack (on the viewer's right). The motto was "Industry, Intelligence, Integrity".

In an earlier version of the arms, a beaver was shown in place of the white rose, and a sheaf of wheat instead of the cog wheel. In addition, the First Nations supporter in the earlier coat of arms was a Chief holding an axe, and both supporters were facing directly across to one another. The heraldic badge of HMCS Toronto features the crest of the former City of Toronto.

In 1997, the Canadian Heraldic Authority created a prototype for Amalgamated Toronto's new coat of arms. It consisted of a golden shield with 3 wavy shapes thereon, with a green disc consisting of a coronet that contained trilliums and a maple leaf; the 3 Golden and 3 Blue shapes represented the 6 municipalities (East York, Etobicoke, North York, Old Toronto, Scarborough, and York) brought together to form the new City of Toronto. The Trilliums upon the coronet represented Toronto's place in Ontario as the Provincial capital, and the Maple Leaf represented Toronto's place in Canada as Canada's largest city. The crest, almost identical to the former city crest, was a beaver atop a mural crown holding an ear of wheat. The supporters were hybrids between a Lion, an Ocelot, a Tiger, and a Dragon, as these were the 4 animals that the City of Toronto polled people on what animals they would like to see on the city arms. These hybrid supporters ultimately got the arms rejected by the Toronto City Council. The compartment, 3 wavy lines emptying into a watery base, is the same as the current compartment used by the City of Toronto, and represented the Humber, Don, and Rouge Rivers flowing into Lake Ontario. The motto, STRONGER IN UNITY, refers to the multicultural dimension of the city and to the six municipalities that formed what is now the City of Toronto.

East York
The Borough of East York's armorial device was designed by Harry Faulks, a resident of Leaside. It was selected by the Borough in 1967 and consisted of the following elements:
 * Arms: Gules a rose Argent barbed Vert and seeded Or, in a chief of the second and between two maple leaves of the third a beaver proper.
 * Crest: A bulldog statant proper.
 * Motto: BOROUGH OF EAST YORK.

Etobicoke
The City of Etobicoke's coat of arms were granted by the Canadian Intellectual Property Office on 16 November 1977. The armorial bearings consisted of the following items:

 * Arms: Or on a mount Vert a clump of four speckled alders proper.
 * Crest: On a wreath of the colours Or and Vert, a Canadian Mural Crown, embattled of six maple leaves Or masoned and veined Sable.
 * Supporters : On the dexter side a representation of a native Indian of the era, on bended knee holding in the dexter hand a bow all proper, and on the sinister side a figure on bended knee representing Etienne Brule, holding in the sinister hand a musket, all proper.
 * On a compartment consisting of an escroll Argent the name ETOBICOKE, on the dexter side the word TRADITION, and on the sinister the word PROGRESS, all Sable.

North York
North York's seal was created by Toronto Architect Murray Brown (1885-1958) who was also commissioned in 1922–1923 to design the then-township's first municipal building. Township of North York Bylaw 103, passed 23 December 1923, defined the seal as "A Shield showing a sheaf of grain and scales, surmounted by a beaver on crown, and border of maple leaves on right and left hand sides, the whole surrounded with the words, "Progress With Economy".". The former municipality's armorial device consisted of:

 * Arms: Per fess and per pale Gules, a beaver above a coronet, a sheaf of wheat and a scale, all Or.
 * Badge: Three maple leaves on either side of the shield, all within a roundel
 * Motto: PROGRESS WITH ECONOMY.

Scarborough
The City of Scarborough's coat of arms was granted in 1996 by the Canadian Heraldic Authority, and the official blazon of the arms was as follows:

 * Arms: Or, a columbine flower and a chief embattled Azure, issuant from the upper chief a demi-sun Or.
 * Crest: Issuant from a coronet heightened with four ears of corn (one and two-halves visible) alternating with four millstones (two visible) Or, a maple leaf Gules.
 * Supporters: Two stags Or attired and unguled Azure, each gorged with a collar of braid Gules, Argent and Azure, standing upon a representation of the Scarborough Bluffs proper rising above the waters of Lake Ontario Azure and Argent.
 * Motto: HOME ABOVE THE BLUFFS.

The previous armorial device of the former borough had a shield within a laurel wreath. Upon this shield were the following elements, in quarters:

 * The arms of the province of Ontario
 * A sheaf of wheat
 * Two cog wheels and a factory
 * A view of the Scarborough Bluffs

York

The City of York's coat of arms was granted in 1993 by the Canadian Heraldic Authority, and the official blazon of the arms was as follows:

 * Arms: Vert, dexter a pale wavy Argent charged with a pallet wavy Azure, sinister a sprig of rose Or flowered Argent.
 * Crest: A rock dove proper rising out of a Mural Crown Or masoned Azure.
 * Supporters: On a grassy mound, dexter a beaver sejant erect Or gorged with a ribbon Vert, Argent and Azure, sinister a lion sejant the right forepaw raised Or gorged with a like ribbon.
 * Motto: E SINGULIS COMMUNITAS (Latin for "From individuals, a community").
 * Badge: A hexagon Vert charged with a sprig of rose Or flowered Argent.

The city's motto was in Latin, and it was the only former municipality with a motto in that language, while the others were in English.

title: Coat of arms of Toronto


text:
Edward Crossley

Edward Crossley (1841 – 21 January 1905) was an English businessman, Liberal Party politician and astronomer.

Biography
Edward Crossley was the eldest son of Joseph Crossley J.P., of Broomfield, Halifax, Yorkshire, of the Crossley carpets dynasty. He inherited his family's carpet manufacturing business (John Crossley & Sons) from his father when he was 27. He married Jane Eleanor Baines, third daughter of the Leeds newspaper proprietor and MP Sir Edward Baines.

He was the Member of Parliament (MP) for Sowerby from 1885 to 1892. He was also mayor of Halifax from 1874–1876 and 1884–1885.

He became a Fellow of the Royal Astronomical Society in 1867. He built the Bermerside astronomical observatory, operational from 1867 to 1894, and purchased a 36 in telescope from Andrew Ainslie Common in 1885, and employed Joseph Gledhill as an observer. With Gledhill and James Wilson (later Canon of Worcester), he wrote Handbook of Double Stars in 1879, which became a standard reference work.

By 1895 Crossley had deemed the rainy English weather and the industrial air pollution at his observatory site unsuitable for astronomy, so he donated his 36 in telescope to the Lick Observatory in California. Though extensively modified, it was used for research until 2010 and is known as the Crossley reflector. This telescope was used by Charles Dillon Perrine to discover two moons of Jupiter. The 36 in. Crossley reflector was used extensively before the 120 in. Shane Reflecting Telescope (C. Donald Shane Telescope) was built in 1959.

Obituaries

 * MNRAS 65 (1905) 335
 * Obs 28 (1905) 110
 * PASP 17 (1905) 78

title: Edward Crossley


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/North Borneo/Sabah

North Borneo/Sabah was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE

Bizarre, POV, raving rant. I don't know if this can be speedied, but it should be deleted regardless. - Lucky 6.9 04:49, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC) This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like other '/delete' pages is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.
 * Delete as incoherent. There must be an interesting story behind that rant, but there's no way the article is going to reveal it.  --Ardonik 05:35, Jul 19, 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep, but fix POV. It seems we could have a good article on North Borneo and Sabah if someone took a small amount of time to go look it up.  Perhaps we should change the name to just North Borneo with Sabah as a redirect?  Just a thought.  -SocratesJedi 07:12, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep, but massively fix the POV. See Socrates Jedi's points. [[User:DO'Neil|DO'Иeil]] 09:55, Jul 19, 2004 (UTC)
 * Is this even in English? Delete!  Exploding Boy 10:28, Jul 19, 2004 (UTC)
 * This seems familiar — I believe we learnt a bit about this in history class this year. Everything after the first two paragraphs is POV, though, but those first two ought to be merged with Sabah and Borneo, and the page deleted. Johnleemk | Talk 12:22, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete, ranting casts doubt on the claimed "facts". We have an article on North Borneo, but based on my previous net research, we need a real library-type book for any additional depth. Stan 16:03, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)


text:
St. Mary's Cathedral (Calgary)

St. Mary's Cathedral in Calgary, Alberta, Canada is a Roman Catholic cathedral and the seat of the Diocese of Calgary. The building's full name is The Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

History
St. Mary's began as a sandstone church in 1889, built near the Elbow River on land provided by the Canadian Pacific Railway. The area was called the Mission District, due to the settlement of Father Albert Lacombe in the area in 1884. The original Catholic mission was called Notre-Dame-de-la-Paix. The land was used to establish a French-speaking incorporated village called Rouleauville, which subsequently became overwhelmingly English and was annexed by Calgary in 1907 (making St. Mary's part of Calgary). The same land obtained by Lacombe was also used to build St. Mary's School nearby.

When Pope Pius X created the Diocese of Calgary November 30, 1912, St. Mary’s became the cathedral as the seat of the Bishop.

Demolition of the sandstone cathedral began on July 21, 1955, and on October 30, 1955, the cornerstone for the cathedral was laid. Construction completed in February 1957, and the Most Reverend Francis P. Carroll, Bishop of Calgary, consecrated the sanctuary December 11, 1957.

Architecture
The building was designed by architects Maxwell Bates, and Alfred Hodges; with Jan Bobrowski and Partners as the project engineers. Bird Construction Company Ltd. was contracted to building the cathedral. The total cost of which was C$1,000,000.

The cathedral is built of brick with sandstone accents in a modern gothic style. The floor plan is a St. Anthony's Cross (T or Tau-shaped) rather than the usual Latin cross that forms most Western Christian churches. A 4.9 m statue of the Virgin Mary with Child in stone, by the Calgary sculptor Luke Lindoe occupies a niche above the main entrance.

Senator Pat Burns donated four 750 lb bells in to the church in 1904 that were cast by the Paccard Foundry in Annecy, France. These bells are the only parts from the old building used in the construction of the new cathedral.

The tabernacle, chalices, monstrance, candle holders and sanctuary lamp were all designed and cast by Gunning and Son Bronze Works of Dublin. The pulpit was designed by the architects and built from hand carved oak by the Globe Furniture Company of Waterloo, Ontario. The carvings depict the figures of Christ and the four major prophets: Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezechiel and Daniel.

The stained glass throughout the cathedral was commissioned from Franz Mayer & Co. of Munich.

title: St. Mary's Cathedral (Calgary)


text:
Electrophilic aromatic directing groups

In electrophilic aromatic substitution reactions, existing substituent groups on the aromatic ring influence the overall reaction rate or have a directing effect on positional isomer of the products that are formed.

An electron donating group (EDG) or electron releasing group (ERG, Z in structural formulas) is an atom or functional group that donates some of its electron density into a conjugated π system via resonance (mesomerism) or inductive effects (or induction)—called +M or +I effects, respectively—thus making the π system more nucleophilic. As a result of these electronic effects, an aromatic ring to which such a group is attached is more likely to participate in electrophilic substitution reaction. EDGs are therefore often known as activating groups, though steric effects can interfere with the reaction.

An electron withdrawing group (EWG) will have the opposite effect on the nucleophilicity of the ring. The EWG removes electron density from a π system, making it less reactive in this type of reaction, and therefore called deactivating groups.

EDGs and EWGs also determine the positions (relative to themselves) on the aromatic ring where substitution reactions are most likely to take place. Electron donating groups are generally ortho/para directors for electrophilic aromatic substitutions, while electron withdrawing groups (except the halogens) are generally meta directors. The selectivities observed with EDGs and EWGs were first described in 1892 and have been known as the Crum Brown–Gibson rule.

Categories
Electron donating groups are typically divided into three levels of activating ability (The "extreme" category can be seen as "strong".) Electron withdrawing groups are assigned to similar groupings. Activating substituents favour electrophilic substitution about the ortho and para positions. Weakly deactivating groups direct electrophiles to attack the benzene molecule at the ortho- and para- positions, while strongly and moderately deactivating groups direct attacks to the meta- position. This is not a case of favoring the meta- position like para- and ortho- directing functional groups, but rather disfavouring the ortho- and para-positions more than they disfavour the meta- position.

Activating groups
The activating groups are mostly resonance donors (+M). Although many of these groups are also inductively withdrawing (–I), which is a deactivating effect, the resonance (or mesomeric) effect is almost always stronger, with the exception of Cl, Br, and I.

In general, the resonance effect of elements in the third period and beyond is relatively weak. This is mainly because of the relatively poor orbital overlap of the substituent's 3p (or higher) orbital with the 2p orbital of the carbon.

Due to a stronger resonance effect and inductive effect than the heavier halogens, fluorine is anomalous. The partial rate factor of electrophilic aromatic substitution on fluorobenzene is often larger than one at the para position, making it an activating group. Conversely, it is moderately deactivated at the ortho and meta positions, due to the proximity of these positions to the electronegative fluoro substituent.

Deactivating groups
While all deactivating groups are inductively withdrawing (–I), most of them are also withdrawing through resonance (–M) as well. Halogen substituents are an exception: they are resonance donors (+M). With the exception of the halides, they are meta directing groups.

Halides are ortho, para directing groups but unlike most ortho, para directors, halides mildly deactivate the arene. This unusual behavior can be explained by two properties:

 * 1) Since the halogens are very electronegative they cause inductive withdrawal (withdrawal of electrons from the carbon atom of benzene).
 * 2) Since the halogens have non-bonding electrons they can donate electron density through pi bonding (resonance donation).

The inductive and resonance properties compete with each other but the resonance effect dominates for purposes of directing the sites of reactivity. For nitration, for example, fluorine directs strongly to the para position because the ortho position is inductively deactivated (86% para, 13% ortho, 0.6% meta). On the other hand, iodine directs to ortho and para positions comparably (54% para and 45% ortho, 1.3% meta).

Traditional rationalizations
Although the full electronic structure of an arene can only be computed using quantum mechanics, the directing effects of different substituents can often be guessed through analysis of resonance diagrams. Specifically, any formal negative or positive charges in minor resonance contributors (ones in accord with the natural polarization but not necessarily obeying the octet rule) reflect locations having a larger or smaller density of charge in the molecular orbital for a bond most likely to break. A carbon atom with a larger coefficient will be preferentially attacked, due to more favorable orbital overlap with the electrophile. The perturbation of a conjugating electron-withdrawing or electron-donating group causes the π electron distribution on a benzene ring to resemble (very slightly!) an electron-deficient benzyl cation or electron-excessive benzyl anion, respectively. The latter species admit tractable quantum calculation using Hückel theory: the cation withdraws electron density at the ortho and para positions, favoring meta attack, whereas the anion releases electron density into the same positions, activating them for attack. This is precisely the result that the drawing of resonance structures would predict.

For example, aniline has resonance structures with negative charges around the ring system:

Attack occurs at ortho and para positions, because the (partial) formal negative charges at these positions indicate a local electron excess. On the other hand, the nitrobenzene resonance structures have positive charges around the ring system:

Attack occurs at the meta position, since the (partial) formal positive charges at the ortho and para positions indicate electron deficiency at these positions.

Another common argument, which makes identical predictions, considers the stabilization or destabilization by substituents of the Wheland intermediates resulting from electrophilic attack at the ortho/para or meta positions. The Hammond postulate then dictates that the relative transition state energies will reflect the differences in the ground state energies of the Wheland intermediates.

Carbonyls, sulfonic acids and nitro
Because of the full or partial positive charge on the element directly attached to the ring for each of these groups, they all have a moderate to strong electron-withdrawing inductive effect (known as the -I effect). They also exhibit electron-withdrawing resonance effects, (known as the -M effect):

Thus, these groups make the aromatic ring very electron-poor (δ+) relative to benzene and, therefore, they strongly deactivate the ring (i.e. reactions proceed much slower in rings bearing these groups compared to those reactions in benzene.)

Anilines, phenols, and ethers (such as anisole)
Due to the electronegativity difference between carbon and oxygen / nitrogen, there will be a slight electron withdrawing effect through inductive effect (known as the –I effect). However, the other effect called resonance add electron density back to the ring (known as the +M effect) and dominate over that of inductive effect. Hence the result is that they are EDGs and ortho/para directors.

Phenol is an ortho/para director, but in a presence of base, the reaction is more rapid. It is due to the higher reactivity of phenolate anion. The negative oxygen was 'forced' to give electron density to the carbons (because it has a negative charge, it has an extra +I effect). Even when cold and with neutral (and relatively weak) electrophiles, the reaction still occurs rapidly.

Alkyl groups
Alkyl groups are electron donating groups. The carbon on that is sp3 hybridized and less electronegative than those that are sp2 hybridized. They have overlap on the carbon–hydrogen bonds (or carbon–carbon bonds in compounds like tert-butylbenzene) with the ring p orbital. Hence they are more reactive than benzene and are ortho/para directors.

Carboxylate
Inductively, the negatively charged carboxylate ion moderately repels the electrons in the bond attaching it to the ring. Thus, there is a weak electron-donating +I effect. There is an almost zero -M effect since the electron-withdrawing resonance capacity of the carbonyl group is effectively removed by the delocalisation of the negative charge of the anion on the oxygen. Thus overall the carboxylate group (unlike the carboxyl group) has an activating influence.

Alkylammonium and trifluoromethyl group
These groups have a strong electron-withdrawing inductive effect (-I) either by virtue of their positive charge or because of the powerfully electronegativity of the halogens. There is no resonance effect because there are no orbitals or electron pairs which can overlap with those of the ring. The inductive effect acts like that for the carboxylate anion but in the opposite direction (i.e. it produces small positive charges on the ortho and para positions but not on the meta position and it destabilises the Wheland intermediate.) Hence these groups are deactivating and meta directing:

Induction versus resonance
Fluorine is something of an anomaly in this circumstance. Above, it is described as a weak electron withdrawing group but this is only partly true. It is correct that fluorine has a -I effect, which results in electrons being withdrawn inductively. However, another effect that plays a role is the +M effect which adds electron density back into the benzene ring (thus having the opposite effect of the -I effect but by a different mechanism). This is called the mesomeric effect (hence +M) and the result for fluorine is that the +M effect approximately cancels out the -I effect. The effect of this for fluorobenzene at the para position is reactivity that is comparable to (or even higher than) that of benzene. Because inductive effects depends strongly on proximity, the meta and ortho positions of fluorobenzene are considerably less reactive than benzene. Thus, electrophilic aromatic substitution on fluorobenzene is strongly para selective.

This -I and +M effect is true for all halides - there is some electron withdrawing and donating character of each. To understand why the reactivity changes occur, we need to consider the orbital overlaps occurring in each. The valence orbitals of fluorine are the 2p orbitals which is the same for carbon - hence they will be very close in energy and orbital overlap will be favourable. Chlorine has 3p valence orbitals, hence the orbital energies will be further apart and the geometry less favourable, leading to less donation the stabilize the carbocationic intermediate, hence chlorobenzene is less reactive than fluorobenzene. However, bromobenzene and iodobenzene are about the same or a little more reactive than chlorobenzene, because although the resonance donation is even worse, the inductive effect is also weakened due to their lower electronegativities. Thus the overall order of reactivity is U-shaped, with a minimum at chlorobenzene/bromobenzene (relative nitration rates compared to benzene = 1 in parentheses): PhF (0.18) > PhCl (0.064) ~ PhBr (0.060) < PhI (0.12). But still, all halobenzenes reacts slower than benzene itself.

Notice that iodobenzene is still less reactive than fluorobenzene because polarizability plays a role as well. This can also explain why phosphorus in phosphanes can't donate electron density to carbon through induction (i.e. +I effect) although it is less electronegative than carbon (2.19 vs 2.55, see electronegativity list) and why hydroiodic acid (pKa = -10) being much more acidic than hydrofluoric acid (pKa = 3). (That's 1013 times more acidic than hydrofluoric acid)

Directing effect
Due to the lone pair of electrons, halogen groups are available for donating electrons. Hence they are therefore ortho / para directors.

Induction
Due to the electronegativity difference between carbon and nitrogen, the nitroso group has a relatively strong -I effect, but not as strong as the nitro group. (Positively charged nitrogen atoms on alkylammonium cations and on nitro groups have a much stronger -I effect)

Resonance
The nitroso group has both a +M and -M effect, but the -M effect is more favorable.

Nitrogen has a lone pair of electrons. However, the lone pair of its monomer form is unfavourable to donate through resonance. Only the dimer form is available for +M effect. However, the dimer form is less stable in a solution. Therefore, the nitroso group is less available to donate electrons.

Oppositely, withdrawing electron density is more favourable: (see the picture on the right).As a result, the nitroso group is a deactivator. However, it has available to donate electron density to the benzene ring during the Wheland intermediate, making it still being an ortho / para director.

Steric effects
There are 2 ortho positions, 2 meta positions and 1 para position on benzene when a group is attached to it. When a group is an ortho / para director with ortho and para positions reacting with the same partial rate factor, we would expect twice as much ortho product as para product due to this statistical effect. However, the partial rate factors at the ortho and para positions are not generally equal. In the case of a fluorine substituent, for instance, the ortho partial rate factor is much smaller than the para, due to a stronger inductive withdrawal effect at the ortho position. Aside from these effects, there is often also a steric effect, due to increased steric hindrance at the ortho position but not the para position, leading to a larger amount of the para product.

The effect is illustrated for electrophilic aromatic substitutions with alkyl substituents of differing steric demand for electrophilic aromatic nitration. The methyl group in toluene is small and will lead the ortho product being the major product. On the other hand, the t-butyl group is very bulky (there are 3 methyl groups attached to a single carbon) and will lead the para product as the major one. Even with toluene, the product is not 2:1 but having a slightly less ortho product.

Directing effect on multiple substituents
When two substituents are already present on the ring, the third substituent's new location is relatively predictable. If the existing substituents reinforce or the molecule is highly symmetric, there may be no ambiguity. Otherwise:
 * 1) The most-activating substituent usually controls over the less-activating one.  Directing effect on same directors.jpg
 * 2) In particular, ortho/para directors control over meta ones.  Directing effect on different directors.jpg
 * 3) When multiple substituents are comparably activating, steric hindrance dominates regioselectivity.  Directing effect on similar directors.jpg
 * 4) In particular, the position between two substituents, each meta to the other, reacts last.  3-chlorotoluene directing effect.jpg

title: Electrophilic aromatic directing groups