text:
Dreamland Margate

Dreamland Margate is an amusement park and entertainment centre based on a traditional English seaside funfair located in Margate, Kent, England. The site of the park was first used for amusement rides in 1880, although the Dreamland name was not used until 1920 when the park's Grade II* listed (particularly significant building of more than local interest) Scenic Railway wooden rollercoaster was opened.

The number of amusements at the park increased during the 1960s and 1970s, and in 1981 the site was sold to the Dutch Bembom brothers, who renamed it "Bembom Brothers White Knuckle Theme Park". The name remained until it reverted to Dreamland in 1990.

In the early 2000s, the park began to enter into decline, and a number of rides were sold to other theme parks. The park's owner, Jimmy Godden announced in 2003 that Dreamland would be closed and the site redeveloped, although the listing of the Scenic Railway meant it could not be moved. The site was sold to Margate Town Centre Regeneration Company in 2005, and this company proposed a residential redevelopment. A number of local residents then launched a campaign to restore and reopen Dreamland instead, although final closure was later in the same year. The site then fell into a state of disrepair as objections were raised to redevelopment plans, and was subject to a series of arson attacks including one which significantly damaged the Scenic Railway.

The public campaign to restore the park continued, and in September 2013, ownership passed to Thanet District Council after a compulsory purchase order was approved by a High Court judge. In 2014 it was confirmed that the park would be redeveloped. It re-opened in June 2015 as a "Re-imagined Dreamland". The operating company became insolvent in December 2015, but continued to operate under administration. A second refurbishment and relaunch took place in 2017, funded by the major creditor.

Origins
The Dreamland site was a salt marsh known as the Mere that was inundated at high tide until 1809 when a causeway and seawall were built. In 1846 a railway terminus was built on the present Arlington site for the South Eastern Railway, followed in 1864 by a further terminus, for the rival London, Chatham and Dover Railway (LCDR) on the site of what is now Dreamland Cinema. The LCDR (under its subsidiary the Kent Coast Railway) completed this terminus in 1866, but no public service was ever offered. The junction faced Ramsgate, so a local Margate-Broadstairs-Ramsgate train service was envisaged.

Dreamland's remote origins as an entertainment venue date from the same year, when London restaurateurs Spiers and Pond opened a restaurant and dance hall in the unused railway terminus on the Mere causeway. Not being very successful, this 'Hall by the Sea' was bought by the Reeve family of Margate in 1870 for £3,750, who also gradually acquired the low-lying land at the rear of the Hall.

In 1870, circus entrepreneur George Sanger went into partnership to run the 'Hall by the Sea' with Thomas Dalby Reeve, the then Mayor of Margate. After Reeve's death in 1875, Sanger became the sole proprietor of the Hall and the land behind it. This land behind the Hall, the former 'Mere', was turned into pleasure gardens with a mock ruined abbey, lake, statues and a menagerie – as well as sideshows and roundabouts. Animal cages and Gothic walls on the present Dreamland western and southern boundaries (now listed Grade II) date from this time. The main purpose of the menagerie was to act as a breeding and training centre for animals used in Sanger's travelling circus.

The first amusement rides were installed as early as 1880 when 'Sea on Land' machines were installed. Passengers sat in 'boats' that were made by a system of levers to pitch and roll as though at sea – a direct antecedent of the contemporary 'flight simulator' rides. In 1893 a large skating rink was built. Shortly after this, the park gained some notoriety as the venue for the murder of a sex-worker by the local circus strong man.

Sanger died in 1911 during a scuffle arising from the attempted murder of a friend (although Sanger himself may have been the intended target), and the park entered an uncertain period as part of the attraction was the charisma of the man himself. In the end, the site was purchased from his estate in 1919 for £40,000 by John Henry Iles, who had already set up theme parks all over the world, including at Cairo, Berlin, Petrograd (now St Petersburg) and Pittsburgh.

Inspired by Coney Island, which he had visited in 1906, Iles renamed the site 'Dreamland' and initiated work on the construction of the Scenic Railway rollercoaster in 1919, having purchased the European rights to the Scenic Railway design from inventor and patent holder LaMarcus Adna Thompson. The ride opened to the public in 1920 with great success, carrying half a million passengers in its first year. Iles also brought to the park other rides common to the time including a smaller roller coaster, the Joy Wheel, Miniature Railway, The Whip, and the River Caves.

Expansion
A ballroom was constructed on the site of the skating rink in 1920, and in 1923 Iles built his variety cinema on the site. (In 1926, he was also responsible for the building of Margate's lido on the seafront.) Between 1920 and 1935 he invested over £500,000 in the site, constantly adding new rides and facilities and culminating in the construction of the Dreamland cinema complex in 1934. Iles ceased to be a director in 1938 and the business was taken over by his son Eric.

Most of the Dreamland site was requisitioned by the Government during World War II, with the park reopening in June 1946. Eric Iles was manager. From 1947, it received investment from Butlins.

Three generations of the Iles family – John Henry, Eric, and John – controlled Dreamland from 1919 until its sale in 1968. The new owners, Associated Leisure, introduced many innovations to Dreamland, including squash courts and, in an echo of the Sanger era, an ice rink and zoo. Much of the planting of the pleasure gardens dating from the 1870s survived until the 1970s when the gardens were removed and the rides expanded. 1976 saw the debut of a revolutionary new ride, the 'Orbiter', unveiled by travelling showman and Dreamland lessee Henry Smith, a ride which went on to become highly successful in other amusement parks and travelling fairs around the world. Smith, himself a descendant of George Sanger, also had a Skid, Waltzer, Speedway, Tip Top, and another Orbiter up until the park's change of ownership in 1981. 1980 saw the opening of a 240-seater 148 ft high Big wheel.

Dreamland was purchased by the Dutch Bembom Brothers in 1981. They owned several other amusement parks in continental Europe and renamed the site Bembom Brothers White Knuckle Theme Park, bringing in a new headline attraction in the form of the Anton Schwarzkopf-designed 'Looping Star' roller coaster. The name change lasted until 1990, when it reverted to Dreamland. Other changes they made included ceasing evening hours and charging for admission, rather than per ride. They also introduced many new 'high-tech' rides that updated the park and made it, by the late 1980s, one of the top ten most visited tourist attractions in the United Kingdom.

Decline
In common with other traditional British seaside resorts, Margate's economic base depended on residential holidaymakers staying for several days, usually families holidaying for a week or more. This was supplemented by day-trippers on weekends and public holidays, when the resort could become very busy. With the rise of cheap package holidays abroad from the 1960s, however, the residential holiday trade progressively collapsed in the 1970s. This meant that footfall at entertainment venues in these resorts, such as Dreamland, declined sharply on summer weekdays while remaining relatively buoyant at weekends.

Day-tripper trade at Margate remained substantial, but the loss of holiday revenue meant that the town began to struggle to maintain its infrastructure. This, in turn, started to affect its attractiveness as a day destination. However, the investment by Bembom Brothers indicates that this was not regarded as an appreciable threat to Dreamland at the beginning of the 1980s.

More immediately serious was the opening of much larger amusement parks closer to London, on expansive sites and with ample vehicle parking. Thorpe Park opened in 1979, and Chessington World of Adventures in 1987. At this time, the fastest train journey from London to Margate was just under two hours, and Dreamland has never had any public on-site parking.

In 1996 the Bembom family sold the site to local entrepreneur Jimmy Godden, who had previously operated the Rotunda Amusement Park at Folkestone and Ramsgate Pleasure Park at Ramsgate. At this time, most of the rides they owned were relocated. The 'Looping Star (Great America)' went to an amusement park in Budapest together with the looping boat ride The Mary Rose. The Looping Star's sister ride made a brief appearance for two seasons at Margate (previously at Camelot Theme park) before leaving again for its current home, Loudon Castle theme park, where it is called the Twist 'n' Shout.

After his purchase of the park, Godden was able to secure European and regional grant aid to assist in an initial £3m redevelopment. However, during Godden's tenure many of the rides were sold off, including the big wheel which had dominated the Margate skyline for two decades but was dismantled and sold to a park in Mexico.

Closure
In 2003, Godden announced that Dreamland would close down and the land would be redeveloped. A vocal section of public opinion supported continued use of the Dreamland site as an amusement park, along with a government report in 2004.

After the closure announcement, Dreamland was sold to Margate Town Centre Regeneration Company (MTCR) in 2005 for £20m. A number of local residents then formed the 'Save Dreamland Campaign'. The campaign proposed to turn Dreamland into a heritage amusement park, consisting of a number of vintage rides and attractions from other British amusement parks. Some rides were obtained by Save Dreamland and placed in storage.

Although it was initially announced that Dreamland would close in November 2003, it operated during 2004 and 2005. Definitive closure to the public was in 2005 and all of the rides apart from the Scenic Railway were then removed from the site. The Scenic Railway had been granted Grade-II listed status in 2002, and so could not be moved or dismantled.

Part of the Scenic Railway was damaged by fire after an arson attack on 7 April 2008. About 25% of the structure, boarding station, storage sheds, and trains were destroyed and had to be removed as irreparable. The physical security of the site was upgraded, and the surviving structure surveyed. Some of the surviving machinery and chassis from the cars were salvaged and stored on site. Another suspected arson attack was carried out on the site on 28 May 2014, but this was confined to a disused building near the Scenic Railway.

On 25 April 2008 the Dreamland cinema's Listed building status increased from Grade II (buildings of special architectural or historic interest) to Grade II* (particularly significant buildings of more than local interest). The cinema, which featured a Compton theatre organ, was closed in 2007 following the opening of a new multiplex cinema at Westwood Cross. The buildings were placed under renovation and the Dreamland sign on the front tower has been refurbished with LED lighting and shines brightly at night.

The defunct cinema was sold by MTCR, by then renamed DreamlandLive Ltd. This was before the result of a court appeal by this company to stop Thanet District Council taking possession of the theme park under a compulsory purchase order, served in June 2011. The CPO was approved in August 2012.

Re-opening project
The success of the Save Dreamland Campaign in attracting public awareness led to the establishment of the Dreamland Trust, a registered charity, in 2007 to co-ordinate a re-opening project.

A total of £18m in public funding was subsequently awarded to the project, to restore, preserve and maintain the listed structures, which included the Scenic Railway, menagerie cages and some of the internal building spaces. This money was also used to purchase five heritage rides.

On 16 November 2009, the Dreamland Trust was awarded a grant of £3m by the Heritage Lottery Fund with further funding of £3.7m and £4m coming from the UK Department for Culture, Media and Sport and Thanet District Council respectively, to restore the Scenic Railway and to develop the former Dreamland site as necessary for rejuvenation.

The Scenic Railway was regarded as being the focus of the rejuvenation of Dreamland as a heritage amusement park. Work began in September 2014, with a complete refurbishment of the track and new trains being built.

Some historic rides from other parks were donated to the Dreamland Trust and put in storage for restoration at a later date. The majority of unique old rides at Pleasureland Southport were donated, which included the 1940s Caterpillar ride, King Solomon's Mines wooden roller-coaster (formerly of Frontierland, Morecambe and later moved to Pleasureland Southport), workings from the Ghost Train and River Caves, the Hall of Mirrors, Mistral, Haunted swing and the Skyride (Chairlift ride). The Junior Whip which stood at Blackpool Pleasure Beach was also donated.

Wayne Hemingway, his wife Gerardine, and the 'HemingwayDesign' team were appointed as designers of the envisaged new Dreamland in 2012. This includes the creative vision for re-imagination and branding.

An additional £10m in private funding was invested in the re-opening of Dreamland by the commercial operators chosen to run it, Sands Heritage Ltd. These funds were used to introduce a collection of 17 additional rides to create the amusement park, as well as a Roller Disco & Diner, Amusement Arcade, Vintage Pin Ball Arcade, Dreamland Emporium and The Octopus's Garden. The running agreement between Sands Heritage and Thanet District Council involved the former taking out a 99-year lease of the freehold property owned by the council as a result of the CPO, while the council remained responsible for certain aspects of repair and maintenance including as regards the Scenic Railway. Part of the capital raised by Sands Heritage was a £600 000 short-term secured loan from Arrowgrass Master Fund, an investment company based in the Cayman Islands. This company also held 31% of the share capital of Sands Heritage.

Opening of Re-imagined Dreamland

The park re-opened on 19 June 2015, garnering much media coverage. BBC Radio Kent spent the opening day broadcasting live from Dreamland. There was a slight delay to the opening ceremony, and BBC Kent broadcasters Jo Burn and Zac Daunt-Jones spent 45 minutes entertaining the crowds, while live on-the-air. Additional rides opened in July.

The entry fee to the park was £14.95.

The park's centrepiece, the Scenic Railway, was still in the process of being rebuilt by Thanet District Council. It opened to the public only on 17 October 2015, owing to delays in rebuilding the train carriages. Member and press previews took place on 16 October 2015. Sands Heritage put in a claim for lost revenue as a result of the delay, which was settled in November with a compensation payment by TDC to Sands Heritage after the delay to opening the Scenic Railway forced the company into administration.

Administration
On 8 December 2015, Sands Heritage were forced to apply to the High Court for a company voluntary arrangement (CVA) in relation to a debt of £2.9m owed to Arrowgrass. This amounted to the original £600 000 owed as a secured loan, plus unpaid compound interest and charges. At a meeting on 23 December 2015 the company's creditors agreed to accept the CVA, allowing the company more time to pay off its existing debts. Sands Heritage representatives at the meeting promised that the debt to Arrowgrass would be repaid over five years - as a secured debt, this took priority over other debts. The insolvency administrators appointed in the CVA were Duff & Phelps.

The financial failure was attributed primarily to the number of visitors in the summer season of 2015 being half of what was predicted for the capital structuring of the project. Media reports estimated the cash loss suffered by the company as being on the order of £5 million. The major contributing factor for visitor shortfall was the delay of the Scenic Railway project and lack of communication from the management team of Thanet District Council to Sands Heritage, leading to a premature opening when preparatory works were incomplete. This led to an almost immediate closure of seventeen days to complete these, and the Scenic Railway was to take longer. Also, there were problems with running repairs to rides, leading to breakdowns. Despite popular belief, the admission price cited as discouraging visitors was not the reason for Sand Heritage's cash flow problems; however, the management team and the administrators, Duff & Phelps, abolished it to drive footfall when it became apparent the Scenic Railway would not work for a second summer season.

In August 2016, the CEO of Dreamland, Eddie Kemsley, resigned. A creditors' meeting held in August 2016 revealed that creditors were owed £8.34m, with Sands Heritage having an overall balance sheet shortfall of £14m (£10m of which reflected the investment made by Sands Heritage themselves). An auditors' report to Thanet District Council in December that year revealed that several of these creditors were small local businesses with little hope of any repayment.

The administrators initially expressed their hope that Dreamland as a business could be sold as a going concern in March 2017, after the 2016 summer season. However, this was rendered improbable by their half-yearly report to creditors (December 2015 to June 2016) when they revealed that operating losses during the period were over £1m or about £41 000 per week. They warned that losses were continuing, factors cited being bad weather in early summer and the failure of the Scenic Railway in mid-June.

The Scenic Railway had been restored by Thanet District Council following the arson attack. Unfortunately the right knowledge and expertise had not been available when it was rebuilt, and so it failed a safety test in June 2017. The ride is powered by cable haulage, nowadays a rare form of traction worldwide, and the wrong sort of cables was specified. When TDC tried to rectify the matter after the failure, it found that the skills concerned were so specialist that they were rare worldwide and sourcing them was only successful after the summer season was over. The administrators indicated their intention to seek compensation for the failure.

Second relaunch
Arrowgrass covered the operating losses for the summer season of 2016 with a further loan of £1m, secured on the premises of 49–51 Marine Terrace. This was a former pub owned freehold by Sands Leisure (not part of the TDC lease), which had been called the Cinque Ports Arms before the later 20th century. An extension of the administration period was sought, and granted.

Then it was announced that the investment company had increased its lending to just under £10m, to allow for a re-vamp of the business. In February 2017 it was reported that a £25m private investment from Arrowgrass had been obtained.

The new loan was used to re-landscape the site and to add some new rides, with refurbishment of the Cinque Ports pub. The premises had been used as the ticket office for Dreamland and the administrative centre of Sands Leisure, but a bar was opened in it by the administrators in the 2016 season and it was due to be restored to a complete pub for the 2017 re-launch.

The improved park was announced as reopening on 28 April 2017; however this was later delayed to 26 May. The event attracted national media attention. The major new feature which was mentioned as adding to the viability of the business was a new music venue with a capacity of 15 000.

Private investigation by a Thanet District councillor revealed that all the fixed assets of Sands Leisure had loans secured on them for repayment to Arrowgrass. These included the fairground rides owned by the company, as well as the 99-year lease from TDC and other properties owned freehold by the company. If the figure of indebtedness of £25m quoted by the national media was correct, in May 2017 Arrowgrass had almost complete control of the value of the assets of Dreamland. According to the terms of the security given for the loans, if repayment conditions were breached then Arrowgrass could apply for Sands Leisure to be liquidated and could then claim the equity of the lease of the property in lieu.

In 2017, the park hosted 15,000 people at the Demon Dayz festival with Gorillaz. In October 2017 the park exited administration.

There has been interest in redeveloping the Arlington House tower block, next door to Dreamland, which is owned by Thanet Council. In 2018, it was reported that any future deal for the redevelopment of Dreamland could include the Arlington House site.

In 2019 the park reported experiencing its most successful year since reopening, with more than 700,000 visitors across the year, and announced a new programme of events for its 100th anniversary in 2020. In August 2019, the park unveiled a seven metre inflatable sculpture of Tina Turner's head, created by Cool Shit, in celebration of the 2019 Turner Prize exhibition being hosted in Margate.

Festivals
On 6 March 2017 Gorillaz announced the Demon Dayz festival to be held at Dreamland on 10 June 2017. Tickets sold out in 32 minutes, at about 15,000 tickets in an hour.

On 14 September 2018 the National Citizen Service hosted their graduation ceremony at Dreamland, at which 700 Kent and Sussex teens graduated from the employability programme. Each received a signed certificate from the Prime Minister.

In popular culture
Dreamland was the subject of a 1953 documentary film, O Dreamland. It was also visited by characters in the 1989 Christmas special of the BBC Television sitcom Only Fools and Horses titled "The Jolly Boys' Outing". Some of the rides seen in the sitcom were renamed and repainted at Loudoun Castle Theme Park in Scotland (now closed). The Mary Rose was renamed the Black Pearl and is now at Lightwater Valley in North Yorkshire. In an episode of British sitcom One Foot in the Grave titled "Dreamland", during a conversation with Victor, Margaret recalls the couple visiting Margate and Dreamland on their third anniversary.

The park was also the filming location for the 2007 film Exodus and featured prominently in the 2000 film Last Resort, about a young Russian immigrant seeking asylum in England.

Dreamland is frequently alluded to in Graham Swift's 1996 novel Last Orders, as well as the 2001 film adaptation.

The Romford-based band Five Star shot the majority of the video for their 1984 single "Crazy" at Dreamland.

On 29 June 2015, the music video for the song 'Blue' by Marina and the Diamonds was shot at Dreamland.

On 26 September 2017, the Sky Mobile iPhone 8 commercial with actor Tom Hardy was shot at Dreamland.

In February 2022, the Dreamland Cinema signage was changed while the building was used as a set in Sam Mendes' 1980s period film Empire of Light.

In June 2022, Noel Gallagher's High Flying Birds performed at Dreamland.

title: Dreamland Margate


text:
User talk:MarkS2

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! --Lst27 22:02, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * The five pillars of Wikipedia
 * How to edit a page
 * Help pages
 * Tutorial
 * How to write a great article
 * Manual of Style

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:MarkS2


text:
Scenic Railway (Dreamland Margate)

The Scenic Railway is a wooden roller coaster located at the Dreamland Amusement Park in Margate, United Kingdom. It first opened in 1920 and is the oldest roller coaster in the UK. The ride is distinctive compared to modern-day roller coasters, as a brakeman is still required to travel with the train to control its speed, manually applying brakes when needed. It is also one of only eight scenic railways in the world, and the UK's English Heritage granted the roller coaster Grade II listed status in 2002 and Grade II* listed status in 2011. The Scenic Railway was non-operational from 2006 until 2015 amid park closure and restoration following an arson attack.

History
In 1919, John Henry Iles bought the European usage rights to the scenic railway from LaMarcus Adna Thompson, who had patented the scenic railway design in 1884. Iles was a co-owner of Dreamland and had the Scenic Railway constructed at Dreamland from local timber and had mechanical parts for the ride shipped over from the US. The ride drew on ideas from several other designers, but was constructed by local carpenters within the area specified by Iles.

Fire destroyed part of the ride in 1949 and the structure required major repairs. Replacement timber for the ride was bought from the dismantled pier at Lowestoft and the ride re-opened in 1950. Fire again destroyed parts of the ride in 1957.

Some of the Margate trains were sold to Battersea Fun Fair in the 1960s where they were used on the Scenic Railway there (called the 'Big Dipper' at that site). It was one of the ex-Margate trains that was involved in the Battersea Big Dipper disaster of 1972 when 5 children were killed and several injured. It was during the aftermath of this accident that most of the wooden roller coasters in Britain's amusement parks were removed as, irrespective of the actual standards of safety on the rides, public confidence had been dented.

The Scenic Railway was successfully granted Grade II listed status in 2002, making it the first roller coaster ever to be given any form of protection against demolition. It continued operating until 2006 after Dreamland closed to the public in 2003. On 7 April 2008, it was targeted in an arson attack, and a significant portion of the ride was damaged. In 2011 the ride's listing status was upgraded from Grade II to Grade II* despite the fire damage due to the rarity of the ride and its international significance as one of the world's oldest roller coasters. It reopened in 2015 after going through an extensive repair process.

Restoration
Dreamland restored the Scenic Railway as part of a broader initiative to rejuvenate the amusement park. On 16 November 2009, the Dreamland Trust was awarded a grant by UK's Department for Culture, Media and Sport to restore the Scenic Railway and other historic areas of the park. Topbond Plc of Kent were contracted to rebuild the woodwork, while WGH Engineering from Doncaster restored the ride's mechanical operation. During restoration, the wooden structure that was in the midst of being rebuilt was knocked down by high winds in December 2014, which set back the timeline to reopen the attraction. The roller coaster reopened to the public on 15 October 2015.

Ride description
The ride consists of a wooden-tracked railway with steel rails supported by a wooden structure. The ride occupies a space approximately 580 ft and 120 ft. The track is in a trough, and as such is often incorrectly referred to as a side-friction coaster. The train actually makes no contact with the trough walls; they are present simply to provide some lateral protection from derailment as the running wheels are flanged like those of railway vehicles. The layout of the track consists of a double-loop with two cable lift-hill sections. The drops off both of the lift hills are double-drops.

The original trains were destroyed by the fire in 2008, so new trains were constructed for the restored ride in 2015. The trains of the ride consist of three cars mounted on bogies. The bodies and much of the chassis of the cars are wooden, and 28 riders can travel on each train. The brakeman rides between the first and second cars on the bogie and operates the brakes with a large lever.

title: Scenic Railway (Dreamland Margate)


text:
USS Robinson (DD-88)

USS Robinson (DD-88) was a Wickes-class destroyer in the United States Navy, later transferred to the Royal Navy, as HMS Newmarket (G47). She was the first ship named for Isaiah Robinson.

She was laid down 31 October 1917 by the Union Iron Works, San Francisco, California, launched 28 March 1918, sponsored by Miss Evelyn Tingey Selfridge, and commissioned at the Mare Island Navy Yard on 19 October 1918.

Construction and design
In 1916, the US Congress authorized a massive three-year shipbuilding program, with the aim of matching the largest navy in the world, the British Royal Navy. The program included 50 destroyers, which were to be built to a modified version of the Caldwell-class destroyer, designed to reach 35 kn rather than the 30 kn of the Caldwells. As such, the new design, the Wickes-class destroyer, had more powerful machinery with geared steam turbines, but retained the same flush-decked layout and armament used by the Caldwells. The Wickes were built to one of two detailed designs, one design by Bethlehem Steel, used by the two Bethlehem-owned shipyards, Union Iron Works and the Fore River Shipyard, while the design by Bath Iron Works was used by all other shipyards involved in the program.

Robinson was one of 20 destroyers ordered as the first stage of the construction plan, under the Fiscal year 1917 construction program. She was laid down at Union Iron Works' San Francisco yard on 31 October 1917, was launched on 28 March 1918 and commissioned at the Mare Island Naval Shipyard on 19 October 1918.

The Bethlehem-designed ships, like Robinson, were 314 ft long overall and 310 ft at the waterline, with a beam of 30 ft and a draft of 9 ft. Displacement was 1090 LT normal and 1247 LT full load. Four Yarrow boilers fed steam to geared sets of steam turbines and driving two shafts The machinery was designed to give 27000 shp, giving a design speed of 35 kn. 225 tons of oil were carried, giving a design range of 2500 nmi at 20 kn.

United States Navy
Robinson cleared San Francisco Bay 24 October 1918 for the east coast of the United States. Transiting the Panama Canal 3 November 1918, she set course by way of Guantanamo Bay for Norfolk, Virginia where she arrived on 8 November.

On 10 January 1919, Robinson put to sea from Norfolk to conduct winter training out of Guantanamo Bay, which ended at New York Harbor 14 April 1919. She then prepared for lifeguard duty supporting the first transatlantic flight from America to Europe to be attempted by Navy Seaplane Division Number 1.

Robinson got underway from Norfolk on 30 April, arrived at Halifax, Nova Scotia, 4 May 1919, and stood out toward the entrance of the harbor on the afternoon of 8 May. At 1944, she sighted the first of the Navy seaplanes, the NC-3, approach the harbor on the first leg of the transatlantic flight. Two days later, Robinson took station at sea to assist in guarding the flight of the two seaplanes to Trepassey Bay, Newfoundland, then returned to Halifax 11 May and got underway on 14 May to act as plane guard for seaplane NC-4 which had been delayed by repairs at Chatham Naval Air Station, and passed overhead at 1645, on 15 May, to join the other two seaplanes at Trepassey Bay.

After NC-4 faded from view, Robinson set course for station on the Azores route to be followed by the seaplanes from Trepassey Bay, 16 May 1919. These seaplanes would be guided on their 1,380-mile flight to the Azores, by Robinson and other destroyers who poured smoke from their funnels in daylight and fired starshells or turned on searchlights during the night. The first seaplane passed Robinson abeam an hour before midnight of 16 May 1919, and the two others also passed within the next 20 minutes.

The NC-4 covered the flight in 15 hours and 13 minutes setting down at Horta, the emergency stop in the Azores Islands. This seaplane had found its way above the dense fog which completely blinded the pilots of the others. An hour before the NC-4 landed, the NC-1 was forced to the water about 45 mi off Flores Island and the NC-3 had also descended about 35 mi from Fayal. The NC-1 sank in the heavy seas and Robinson joined in the search for the NC-3 which refused all assistance and finally taxied to Ponta Delgada under its own power.

Robinson anchored at Horta, Fayal Island, the afternoon of 19 May and stood out of the harbor the next morning to transport newspaper reports to Ponta Delgada where she arrived that afternoon. On 25 May 1919, she was en route to Station Number Seven (38.16667°N, 17.66667°W) to cover the fourth leg of the transoceanic flight of the lone NC-4. She sighted the seaplane at 1330 on the afternoon of 26 May and the NC-4 faded from view on its way to a royal welcome by the Portuguese at Lisbon on 25 May and at Plymouth, England, on 31 May, terminating the historic 4,500-mile flight.

Robinson returned to Ponta Delgada on 28 May 1919 and put to sea on 2 June to arrive at Newport on 8 June. She underwent overhaul in the Norfolk Navy Yard and conducted operations in local areas of Newport until her arrival at New York on 30 September 1919. She joined five other destroyers off Sandy Hook on the afternoon of 1 October, then made rendezvous off Fire Island with SS George Washington to act as honor escort for the King of Belgium. She cleared port on 6 October for operations off Key West and Pensacola, Florida, visiting Beaufort, South Carolina, on her return voyage to New York where she arrived 5 November 1919.

On 22 November 1919, Robinson stood out of New York Harbor, leading the second section of the honor detachment on the port quarter of HMS Renown (1916), flying the standard of the Prince of Wales, in company with HMS Constance (1915). She was relieved of her royal escort duty off Nantucket Shoals and returned to New York on 25 November. After a visit to Savannah, and voyage repairs in the Portsmouth Navy Yard, she cleared Boston Harbor on 14 January 1920 for fleet maneuvers off Guantanamo Bay and near the Panama Canal. She returned to New York on 1 May 1920 and entered the Portsmouth Navy Yard on 25 May 1920 for a year of inactivity. She shifted from the yard to Newport on 25 May 1921 for local operations until 10 October, and then visited New York before her arrival at Charleston, South Carolina, on 19 November 1921. After several months in local waters off Charleston, she entered the Philadelphia Navy Yard where she decommissioned 3 August 1922.

Robinson remained inactive until 23 August 1940 when she recommissioned for transfer to the British Government under terms of the destroyers-in-exchange-for-bases agreement. The transfer was effected at Halifax, Nova Scotia, on 26 November 1940 when Robinson was renamed HMS Newmarket (G47) and taken over by a care and maintenance party of the Royal Canadian Navy. She was commissioned in the Royal Navy on 5 December 1940, and struck from the U.S. Navy list 8 January 1941.

Royal Navy
Newmarket departed Halifax on 15 January for the United Kingdom, calling at St. John's and arriving at Belfast on 26 January and at Plymouth, England, on 30 January.

After a short refit in the Humber, she began convoy escort work in the Western Approaches Command and on 2 June 1941, was unsuccessfully attacked by an aircraft in the northwestern approaches. Later that month she proceeded to Sheerness, and was in dockyard hands until November when she joined the 8th Escort Group, at Derry. Newmarket was modified for trade convoy escort service by removal of three of the original 4 in/50 and one of the triple torpedo tube mounts to reduce topside weight for additional depth charge stowage and installation of hedgehog.

On 3 January 1942, Newmarket had to leave Convoy HX 166 because of boiler trouble, and proceeded to Lough Foyle. On 30 January 1942 she arrived at Liverpool, and was under refit until the end of March 1942.

In April 1942, she escorted the Russian convoy PQ-14, but a month later, she was allocated for duty as an aircraft target ship in the Firth of Forth. She refitted at Leith between December 1942 and February 1943, and later in the year, refitted again at Rosyth, Scotland. In September 1943, Newmarket was reduced to care and maintenance status at Rosyth but resumed duty as an aircraft target ship from the spring of 1944, until after the end of the war in Europe. She was scrapped at Llanelli in September 1945.

title: USS Robinson (DD-88)


text:
Talk:Conchoid (mathematics)

Untitled
No, this definition does not agree with Mathworld. Notice the pains taken to exclude Dürer's as a conchoid — because the sweeping lines don't share a point. But no pains are taken to exclude de Sluze's, and I see no "nice" curve that will give de Sluze under the other def'n. (Perhaps the origina has to be moved?) If you can pull it off, do it. 142.177.15.55 22:04, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Aha. This page agrees with me about the "Conchoid" of de Sluze ... and the def'n I've substituted has no real distinction from cissoid (the sum can be changed to difference just by reflecting through the origin). So this should be changed to the standard def'n. 142.177.24.163 03:30, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * Doneded. 142.177.127.106 23:15, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

In case someone with more knowledge of editing math articles reads this, just letting you know, there are references to the conchoid in this wired article on a new solar collector, maybe good as reference for the wiki article? http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.07/solar.html   --BjornVDM 23:03, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

the conchoid can be used to solve the problems of "trisection of an angle" and "duplication of the cube" see: http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/Biographies/Nicomedes.html. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.91.53.45 (talk) 19:32, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I think this article would be better if the first part under decription were to be moved into the intro paragraph Tntarrh (talk) 20:56, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

title: Talk:Conchoid (mathematics)


text:
Angus MacLise

Angus William MacLise (March 14, 1938 – June 21, 1979) was an American percussionist, composer, poet, occultist and calligrapher, known as the first drummer for the Velvet Underground who abruptly quit due to disagreements with the band playing their first paid show.

Early years
Angus William MacLise was born on March 14, 1938, in Bridgeport, Connecticut, the son of a book dealer. Despite some formal training as a percussionist, his playing style became so idiosyncratic that many assumed he was self-taught.

The Velvet Underground
MacLise was a member of La Monte Young's Theatre of Eternal Music, with John Cale, Tony Conrad, Marian Zazeela and sometimes Terry Riley. He contributed to the early Fluxus newspaper VTre, edited by George Brecht, and was also an early member of the Velvet Underground, having been brought into the group by flatmate John Cale when they were living at 56 Ludlow Street in Manhattan. Lou Reed recruited his friend Sterling Morrison, whom he knew from Syracuse University, and the initial line-up of the Velvets consisted of Reed, Cale, Morrison and MacLise.

MacLise played bongos and hand drums during 1965 with the first incarnation of the Velvet Underground and he was also capable of playing tabla, cimbalom and tambourine. Although the band regularly extemporised soundtracks to underground films during this era, MacLise never officially recorded with them, and is often considered something of a shadowy, legendary figure in their history. Demos recorded during this period are included on the Peel Slowly and See box set, but MacLise plays on none of them because (according to John Cale) he did not appreciate the need to turn up on time.

Cale describes MacLise as "living on the Angus calendar", showing up to gigs hours or even days after the band had finished.

When the band's first paying gig in November 1965 arose, MacLise quit, suggesting the group were selling out. He was replaced by Moe Tucker, resulting in the "classic" lineup of the Velvet Underground.

Brief return to the Velvet Underground
In 1966 when Velvet Underground lead singer and guitarist Lou Reed was in the hospital with hepatitis, MacLise rejoined the group for a five-day run of performances at Poor Richard's in Chicago, June 21–26, 1966 during the Exploding Plastic Inevitable performances, sharing duties with Gerard Malanga, whom Angus had taught to play tabla. Cale took over lead vocals and organ, drummer Maureen Tucker switched to bass and MacLise drummed; by now, Tucker's idiosyncratic tribal style of drumming was integral to the group's music.

During an Exploding Plastic Inevitable performance in 1966, MacLise showed up half an hour late and carried on drumming for half an hour after the set had finished to compensate for his late arrival.

By this time the Velvet Underground had found some recognition (if not great financial success) and MacLise was anxious to rejoin the group, but according to the notes of the box set Peel Slowly and See, the VU's primary songwriter and de facto bandleader Lou Reed had specifically prohibited MacLise from rejoining the band full-time due to his erratic behavior.

Later years
After leaving the Velvet Underground for good, MacLise moved to Berkeley, California. He married Hetty McGee in a wedding ceremony at Golden Gate Park in San Francisco, presided over by renowned LSD guru Timothy Leary. Together, they had a son named Ossian Kennard MacLise, who was recognized by Rangjung Rigpe Dorje, the 16th Karmapa, as a reincarnation of a Tibetan saint, or tulku, and at age four became a Buddhist monk. The MacLises travelled to Canada, France, Greece and India, before finally settling in Nepal.

A student of Aleister Crowley (he was working on a script for a film version of Crowley's Diary of a Drug Fiend before he died), he began to blend Tibetan mysticism with his music to create sound through various drone techniques.

Death
A heavy drug user who was never particularly mindful of his physical health, MacLise died of hypoglycemia and pulmonary tuberculosis at the Shanta Bhawan Hospital in Kathmandu on June 21, 1979, aged 41. The cause of death has also been attributed to malnutrition. He was cremated to the traditions of Tibetan Buddhists in a funeral pyre.

Recorded music
MacLise recorded a vast amount of music that went largely unreleased until 1999. These recordings, produced between the mid-'60s and the late-'70s, consist of tribal trance workouts, spoken word, poetry, Brion Gysin-like tape cut-ups and minimalist droning and electronics, as well as many collaborations with his wife Hetty. In 2008, she bequeathed a collection of her husband's tapes to the Yale Collection of American Literature.

Selections can be found on:
 * The Invasion of Thunderbolt Pagoda (Siltbreeze, 1999)
 * Brain Damage in Oklahoma City (Siltbreeze, 2000)
 * The Cloud Doctrine (Sub Rosa, 2002)
 * Astral Collapse (Quakebasket, 2003)
 * The Invasion of Thunderbolt Pagoda (DVD, Bastet/Saturnalia, 2006)

MacLise also collaborated with Tony Conrad, John Cale and La Monte Young on several other recordings:

 * Inside the Dream Syndicate Vol.I: Day Of Niagara (Table of the Elements, 2000)
 * Inside the Dream Syndicate Vol.III: Stainless Steel Gamelan (Table of the Elements, 2002)
 * An Anthology of Noise & Electronic Music: First A-Chronology 1921-2001/Vol.1 (Sub Rosa, 2002)

He worked on soundtracks for several underground films by Piero Heliczer, and appears in at least two: Venus in Furs and Satisfaction (1965). He also worked on the soundtrack for Voyage, a short film by Jerry Jofen.

Book titles

 * The Completed Works of Angus MacLise. (Privately printed by Piero Heliczer, 1957)
 * Straight Farthest Blood Towards. (The Dead Language, Paris, 1959)
 * Year, A Wednesday Paper Supplement. (The Dead Language Press, New York, 1962)
 * New Universal Solar Calendar. (George Maciunas, New York, 1969)
 * Dream Weapon/Aspen #9. Edited by Angus & Hetty MacLise (Roaring Fork Press, New York, 1970)
 * The Cloud Doctrine. Limited edition with facsimile Angus MacLise holographs and hand-tinted cover by Don Snyder (privately published by Snyder in 1972 and reissued in 1983, New York)
 * The Cloud Doctrine. (Dreamweapon Press; Kathmandu, Nepal; 1974)
 * The Subliminal Report. (Starstreams Poetry Series; Kathmandu, Nepal; 1975)
 * The Map of Dusk. (SZ/Press, New York, 1984)
 * Ratio:3 Volume 1. Ira Cohen, Angus MacLise, Gerard Malanga - Media Shamans (Temple Press Ltd., 1991) ISBN 1-871744-30-X
 * Angus MacLise Checklist. Edited by Gerard Malanga (Limited edition, privately published, 2000)

Influence
As co-founder of the Dead Language Press with Piero Heliczer, MacLise published works by influential writers, including early work by the Beat poet Gregory Corso.

English experimental music group Coil regarded MacLise as an important influence in the later years of their career; lead member Jhonn Balance referred to MacLise as a "a liminal genius and, alongside such people as Ira Cohen, largely and unjustly semi-neglected", and the title of their album Astral Disaster is an intentional tribute to MacLise's archival release Astral Collapse.

Dreamweapon
In May 2011 a major retrospective exhibit Dreamweapon: The Art and Life of Angus MacLise (1938–1979) was mounted by the Boo-Hooray Gallery in Chelsea, New York City. The exhibit features the contents of a recently discovered suitcase containing photographs, notes, poetry, and 100 reels of music. In addition to the gallery exhibit, there are sound installations at Boo-Hooray's second location in Chinatown and film screenings at the Anthology Archives.

In 1965, a work by MacLise titled Rites of the Dream Weapon was included in the New Cinema Festival (also known as the Expanded Cinema Festival), an extensive series of multimedia productions in New York presented by Jonas Mekas and featuring the work of such artists as Robert Rauschenberg and Claes Oldenburg. Mekas was impressed with MacLise, writing in the Village Voice, "The first three programs of the New Cinema Festival – the work of Angus McLise [sic], Nam June Paik, and Jerry Joffen [sic] – dissolved the edges of this art called cinema into a frontiersland mystery." MacLise's entry also made a lasting impression on the playwright Richard Foreman, who praised it years later in an interview. According to Sterling Morrison, Andy Warhol's multimedia shows (Andy Warhol Uptight and the Exploding Plastic Inevitable) were based on similar works by MacLise and Heliczer, which they called "ritual happenings."

title: Angus MacLise


text:
Jeremi Przybora

Jeremi Przybora (12 December 1915 in Warsaw – 4 March 2004) was a Polish poet, writer, actor and singer. He created the TV-series "Kabaret Starszych Panów" (Elderly Gentlemen's Cabaret) with Jerzy Wasowski and performed ballads and sung poetry, a popular music genre in Poland.

title: Jeremi Przybora


text:
Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Stefan Engeseth

Fair enough. I entered it but admittedly he is known only within his industry and perhaps those he has promoted his work to. He also seems to have a better reputation outside his home country. To Bishonen: I have not entered anything about myself but was in touch with three people as I wrote their entries (you'll be able to guess which ones) and checked on how much of their personal info I was allowed to put in. This was an innocent mistake, not a puff piece for Mr Engeseth and certainly not a prank. Stombs 22:10, Aug 13, 2004 (UTC)ST


text:
Thomas Holdup Stevens

Captain Thomas Holdup Stevens, USN (February 22, 1795 – January 21, 1841) was an American naval commander in the War of 1812.

Born in Charleston, South Carolina, Thomas Holdup was orphaned at an early age and was adopted by General Daniel Stevens. On February 8, 1809, he was appointed midshipman on board Hornet. From then until 1812, he served successively in Constitution, President, and John Adams. Late in 1812, he was assigned to duty with Commodore Isaac Chauncey and distinguished himself in the attack on Black Rock on November 28. Commodore Chauncey appointed him acting lieutenant in January 1813 and his permanent commission in that rank, to date from July 24, was confirmed by the Senate on August 3.

On September 10, he again distinguished himself as captain of the sloop, Trippe, during the Battle of Lake Erie. In 1815, an Act of the Legislature of South Carolina enabled him to add General Stevens' surname to his own. Following the War of 1812, Stevens held many posts, both ashore and afloat, including tours of duty at the Norfolk Naval Shipyard and the Washington Navy Yard. He was promoted to Master Commandant on March 3, 1825 and, in 1829, he embarked on a two-year tour as commanding officer of Ontario, serving in the Mediterranean Sea. In 1832, he was assigned to the Navy Yard at Pensacola and in 1836 he was appointed captain, to date from January 27, 1836. After waiting two years for orders, he was appointed to command of the Washington Navy Yard on February 29, 1840. He served in that capacity until his death there early on the morning of January 21, 1841.

The first Stevens (Destroyer No. 86) was named for the first Thomas Holdup Stevens and the second Stevens (DD-479) honored both him and his son, Rear Admiral Thomas Holdup Stevens, Jr.

title: Thomas Holdup Stevens


text:
Charlie Ergen

Charles William Ergen (born March 1, 1953) is an American businessman. He is co-founder and chairman of Dish Network and EchoStar. He stepped down as CEO of Dish in May 2011 in favor of Joseph Clayton. Ergen resumed as CEO upon Clayton's March 2015 retirement and was CEO until December 2017, when he promoted president and COO Erik Carlson to CEO, but remains as chairman. Reuters reported that the move was effected to remove the day-to-day responsibilities of running DISH and provide more time for Ergen to build out the company's emerging wireless business. Ergen owns 48 percent of Dish and 46 percent of Echostar shares. He holds 78 percent of Dish's and 72 percent of EchoStar's  total voting power.

Early career
After graduating with an M.B.A. from Wake Forest in 1976, Ergen worked as a financial analyst for Frito-Lay. He "retired" in 1978 in hopes of working for himself. Afterward, he was a professional gambler, playing poker and blackjack.

EchoStar
In 1980 Ergen, his future wife Candy, and Jim DeFranco started a new business called EchoSphere Corporation, investing $60,000 to purchase two C-Band antennas, targeting rural Colorado. They drove around the Denver metro area on a small budget, selling satellite dishes from the back of their truck.

In 1990 Ergen elevated EchoStar's profile by raising $335 million in junk bonds and purchasing orbital slots for satellites. Two years later, EchoStar got a DBS license from the Federal Communications Commission, giving the company its own geostationary orbital slot. In 1993, EchoStar Communications was incorporated. Under Ergen, EchoStar's net income doubled to $20.4 million, in 1993.

Dish
Under Ergen, Dish was the first satellite television provider to offer two-way high-speed internet access as an investor in and dealer for StarBand Communications' geostationary Ku-band satellite internet access service in the United States and the first to introduce a Digital video recorder in a set-top box. He was also instrumental in making satellite receivers available for under $200. In 2012, the Big Four Broadcasters, NBC, CBS, ABC and Fox filed a suit against Dish after it launched AutoHop, a technology that records broadcasting programming and plays it back without commercials. Dish filed a suit seeking a declaratory judgment asserting the legality of the judgment. Preliminary injunction by Fox to block the service was denied. Ergen has stated that Dish's present focus is on acquiring a significant share of the spectrum for cellular wireless services. Dish is also looking for a partner to build a wireless network, with Google and AT&T speculated to be potential partners.

Under Ergen, EchoStar and Dish Network acquired multiple companies, after an $8 million deal for 22 channel assignments of DBSC.

Litigation
Various lawsuits in which Ergen has been involved include:

 * In 2013 and 2014, Harbinger Capital Partners, a hedge fund managed by Philip Falcone, sued Dish Network and Charles Ergen personally in federal court in New York City, alleging racketeering and claiming that Dish Network had illegally tried to take away the hedge fund's control over LightSquared Inc. during its bankruptcy. In 2015, the federal court dismissed the suit.
 * The Iron Workers Mid-South Pension Fund filed suit against Ergen in federal court in Colorado in September 2013. Ergen bought large amounts of LightSquared's debt at deep discounts while it was in bankruptcy. Ergen then made a personal bid of $2 billion to acquire LightSquared's assets. This increased the price that Dish had to bid in order to acquire LightSquared's rights to wireless spectrum. Indeed, Ergen ordered Dish to bid $2.2 billion on these assets. The suit claims this was a breach of Ergen's fiduciary duties to Dish shareholders. Dish and Ergen prevailed in the litigation.
 * In 2005, a discrimination lawsuit was filed against EchoStar in federal court in Denver by an employee who said that EchoStar had engaged in "hostile conduct" against her after she had a baby in 2001. The lawsuit was settled for an undisclosed amount in August 2005.

Personal life
Ergen was born into an Episcopalian family in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, on March 1, 1953, the fourth of five children born to Viola (née Siebenthal) and William Krasny Ergen. His mother was one of the first female accountants in the state of Minnesota. His father was an Austrian immigrant who was working in Sweden as a nuclear physicist, and left Europe prior to World War II. His father coined the phrase "China syndrome". His parents married in Minnesota in 1944 and then moved to Camden, New Jersey, before settling in Oak Ridge where his father accepted a position at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory. Ergen graduated from Oak Ridge High School. He then received a Bachelor of Arts from the University of Tennessee at Knoxville, where he was a member of Phi Gamma Delta fraternity, and an M.B.A. from Wake Forest University. He was a professional blackjack and poker player.

Ergen is well known for his frugality. His office is furnished with second-hand couches and he does not fly first class. Ergen used to sign all the checks his company issued but currently signs only checks for $100,000 or more. Ergen's supporters call his negotiating style patient and prudent.

He is married to Cantey ("Candy") McAdam. They have five children. They live in The Village at Castle Pines, Colorado.

Wealth
Ergen first appeared in the Forbes 400 list in 1999 at the age of 46, with a net worth of US$4.8 billion and was ranked 36th in the list, as Dish share price rose more than 702.1% from 1 January 1999 to 31 December 1999. He was also the third richest person in Colorado at that time. In 2000, Ergen first appeared in The World's Billionaires by Forbes and having a net worth of $11.2 billion, making him the 21st richest person in the world.

Ergen also appeared ever year in the Forbes 400 List from 1999 until 2022, where he was dropped off in the 2023 list. On November 6, 2023, Dish Network's and EchoStar share price plunged 37.43% and 31.28% respectively after both companies' earnings does not meet the expectation of analyst and also decreasing in number of subscribers. In results, Ergen lost $786 million in a day, and his net worth decreased from $1.6 billion to $857.6 million on the same day, losing his billionaire status for the first time in nearly 25 years.

Recognition
Ergen was recognized with a Rocky Mountain News' Business Person of the Year Award in 1996, and honoured a second time in 2001.

Ergen co-founded the Satellite Broadcasting and Communications Association. In 2012, Ergen was inducted into the Consumer Electronics Hall of Fame.

title: Charlie Ergen


text:
Talk:Camp (style)

Defining It
Here's my best attempt at defining what it SHOULD mean:

From what I gather, "camp" originally referred to "tasteless" in a garish way (gaudy). However, camp became associated with gay culture when gays (particularly gay men) deliberately adopted gaudiness. This was not only about their wardrobe, but about their manner of speaking/acting. However, it wasn't just garish - it was an elaborate garishness. A pink flamingo lawn ornament is garish and considered "ugly" to most people, but it's not really elaborate. And it's not "kitsch," either. Kitsch refers to the pretentious cliche - the work appears to be a serious attempt at art, but because it is using a cultural icon to elicit sentiment, it is considered "worthless" to art snobs, since it doesn't contribute anything new to art. For example, a painting of a sunset over a beach using predictable colors and techniques would be considered a "kitsch" painting. It might be technically well made, it might be considered "beautiful" to most people, but it is using a universal symbol of beauty to elicit the sentiment from the viewer. In order to paint that imagery to where it's not kitsch, it would need to be inventive in some way...in its color design and/or technique, etc. It would need something to make it read differently in terms of the message it conveys.

Anyway, I think where people got confused with "camp" to where the meaning became split is they saw famous examples of things referred to as "campy" and didn't understand WHY it was being called campy. They saw the 60s Batman series and thought, "this is really bad," and thought its "badness" was why people were calling it "campy." In actuality, it was being referred to as "campy" because of the elements of camp in it: the theatrical overacting (hamminess) to where the delivery seemed tongue-in-cheek, in both speaking and physical movement, and the garish, elaborate, silly-looking costumes for the characters. It strongly resembles the kind of behavior found in gay culture. It comes across as playful...like the people involved aren't taking anything seriously, whether it's deliberate or not. But camp refers to a specific TYPE of bad acting and bad aesthetics, not just badness in general. It's the gaudiness to look and behavior that defines it. Stiff, wooden acting isn't camp. Cheap production values that aren't showy aren't camp. Datedness isn't camp, although some trends from the past can seem to resemble camp (for instance, acting in film and television used to be more theatrical). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.178.250.78 (talk) 15:37, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Awful Word With No Actual Meaning
I have come to the conclusion that nobody knows what this word means because different people use it to mean completely different things. Some people seem to think it just means something that is bad but people enjoy it by being amused by it being bad or by something entertaining contained in whatever it is, amidst the badness. Others think it refers to things resembling the stereotypical gay arts - theatrical/flamboyant - so movies/TV shows that contain overacting or garish wardrobes or anything else that seems like it relates to the "gay" arts would be referred to by these people as "campy." Sometimes the latter is considered "bad," when it's considered out of place in the medium (overacting on a TV show), but in that definition of the word, "campy" does not mean "bad" in and of itself.

And still others use it simply to mean "really bad," and using it only in a negative sense of the word to talk about how they think it sucks. Whereas in the first use I mentioned, people say it as a way of redeeming something that is bad ("it's bad, but it's entertaining")...as a sort of backhanded compliment (it's either so bad that it's funny how bad it is and therefore entertaining and enjoyable for that, or it's bad but contains something the person finds INTERESTING), a good number of people call something campy as purely an insult. "I tried to watch the show and had to turn it off. It's so campy. Terrible acting, stupid plot, terrible directing." Or just as commonly, people think it's campy because it's "dated."

Those two uses contradict each other. A word can't both mean "bad, but enjoyable" and be used by someone saying they don't enjoy it ("I hate it, it's so campy"). "I hate this movie because it's too campy" = "I hate this movie because it's too bad but entertaining at the same time." After all, "entertaining" refers to the subjective experience of enjoying something, and nobody hates entertainment they find entertaining. If you find something entertaining, that means you enjoy it.

It's just an awful, awful word. When you can't tell what the fuck a person means by a word, the word shouldn't be in use at all.

I'm also irritated by how poorly it's defined in terms of those who see it as "intentional mockery." Uh...what's the difference between that and "satire?" Or that and, you know, COMEDY?

And then there's the whole issue with "artificial." Most things in fiction are artificial on some level. It's fiction, after all. Or by "artificial," do they mean "insincere," which goes back to the whole "mockery" thing? Or is it "insincere" because it's unconvincing because of a technical failure in some part?

Again, it's clear nobody can come up with a way to clearly define this word and it should be removed from the language. I think "cheesy" and "corny" should also go, and probably "kitsch" as well, unless someone can make a clear definition of it stick.

 * This word is a great illustration of semantic change, otherwise known as semantic drift: where a word's meaning starts to veer from its original signification, either through misuse, misunderstanding, or its use as a euphemism. It's such a great illustration, because it shows how a word's meaning can drift, not only to the point of being a pejorative where it was initially simply descriptive; but actually to being both a pejorative and a (generally positive) descriptive at the same time.
 * If we compare it with the word gay, which seems in some contexts to be its virtual synonym: the positive or neutral descriptive use; contrasting with its pejorative, which we would nowadays classify as a form of hate speech. Nuttyskin (talk) 15:16, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Need to represent an international view
This article is almost entirely limited to US definitions and examples of camp, whereas camp culture is present throughout the Anglophone world, particularly that descended from the British musical hall comedy tradition. The fact that anything non-American is restricted to a small "International Aspects" section demonstrates that the whole article needs a lot more work from an international perspective. I've therefore added a Globalise tag to this page. Gymnophoria (talk) 23:22, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree, this is the biggest problem with the article, which does have it's merits. The fact that some one has suggested merging it with "Americana" says it all. This is an article about "American camp". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.188.155.137 (talk) 15:38, 1 May 2014 (UTC) --PRL1973 (talk) 15:42, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Susan Sontag Overemphasized Here?
Going off the 'original research' tag, I'm a little concerned about the focus on the opinion of Susan Sontag, the essayist. While certainly her opinion probably counts as 'notable,' she is also a commentator and well-known social critic with a wide panoply of opinions on all manner of things. I'm not sure that it's either neutral or instructive to continually reference what 'she' believes 'camp' is defined as throughout the article, especially since apparently she only wrote one essay on it to begin with? Surely other sources are available? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.97.71.19 (talk) 05:25, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

High and Low Camp
There should be a section on the distinction between high and low camp. Low camp is camp that does not know it is campy, like a Lawrence Welk dance number. High camp is a parody of low camp. http://www.glbtq.com/literature/camp,3.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jive Dadson (talk • contribs) 12:35, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes! I was looking for this! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kittenwhip (talk • contribs) 10:02, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

 * High camp is actually best typified by the flamboyant, swashbuckling style of Errol Flynn. This is the true link between Adam West-style superheroes and camp. Nuttyskin (talk) 14:16, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Origins & Development section desperately needs correct citations
This section cited ((Samuel R. Delany)) and someone named Altman. Samuel R. Delany is a science-fiction writer who has been quoted as saying that during summer camp he became aware of being more sexually attracted to boys. Altman is seems to be no one in particular besides apparently being the name of a few camps and some camp staff. If anyone knows if any of these claims are valid, that would be swell. --Blacksheepboy (talk) 09:06, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

It should be pointed out that the French pronominal verb "se camper", from the verb "camper", referred to as a possible origin of the English noun is not, as the article misleads, French slang. The Grand Robert defines "se camper" (which dates from the late seventeenth century) as follows: "to stand in a proud, audacious, and provocative way."

Americana vs. Camp vs. Kitsch
Could we somehow merge all 3 into one coherent article? There isn't much of a difference if you think about it.

THIS ARTICLE IS SH!T
Sorry but this has to be one of the poorest efforts on this site. Its pseudo academic tone belies the fact that most of the article is quite frankly poorly written, based on limited sources, contains original research and dubious examples.

The intro is an affront to one's intelligence "Camp is an aesthetic sensibility wherein something is appealing because of its bad taste and ironic value. The concept is closely related to kitsch, and campy things are described as being "campy" or "cheesy". When the usage appeared, in 1909, it denoted: ostentatious, exaggerated, affected, theatrical, and effeminate behaviour, and, by the middle of the 1970s, the definition comprised: banality, artifice, mediocrity, and ostentation so extreme as to have perversely sophisticated appeal."

Compare the above to what a peer-reviewed dictionary says....
 * camp   /kæmp/ Show Spelled[kamp] Show IPA

–noun –verb (used without object) –adjective campy: camp Hollywood musicals of the 1940s.
 * 1) something that provides sophisticated, knowing amusement, as by virtue of its being artlessly mannered or stylized, self-consciously artificial and extravagant, or teasingly ingenuous and sentimental.
 * 2) a person who adopts a teasing, theatrical manner, esp. for the amusement of others.
 * 1) Also, camp it up. to speak or behave in a coquettishly playful or extravagantly theatrical manner.

As noted above, delete this abomination and start again. Start again!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.109.63.164 (talk) 12:17, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

As noted before Start again indeed! and take a good look at the german article on Camp: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_%28Kunst%29 - Rides (talk) 20:22, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

 * I just deleted the entire section on "Roadside Culture", since it was all WP:OR, and merely opinion... at that. I see no cites here... where's the scenery ?-) bonze blayk (talk) 00:19, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

 * Hmmm, why did not you try to write a better one? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.250.155.55 (talk) 19:53, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Gloria Swanson
Camp's source is the deadly seriousness of an older woman bent on seduction (and unaware that her attempts look absurd to everyone else). The perfect example would be someone like Gloria Swanson in Sunset Boulevard. Camp is pretending, ironically, to be Gloria Swanson. That is why it appeals so much to gay men: fear of female seduction and a way of turning the fear into the comic. All the typical props come from the same scenario. Tsinfandel (talk) 00:09, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Where in the name of Kylie's handbag did you get that rubbish from? At best that's third rate cod-psychology and at worst it's actively offensive. I really can't think of a single gay man (and that includes me)'straight acting', camp or totally flaming who has a 'fear of female seduction', it's just plain not true and I don't care if Susan Sontag (whoever she is) says otherwise92.41.103.47 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:54, 20 May 2012 (UTC).

 * then why do gay men camp it up in drag? Camp is a gay thing about women. What is going on? Tsinfandel (talk) 22:09, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Susan Sontag;1964. Notes on Camp. In Against Interpretation and Other Essays. New York: Farrar, Straus & Giroux.fix italics

 * "Camp is the consistently aesthetic experience of the world. It incarnates a victory of "style" over "content," "aesthetics" over "morality," of irony over tragedy.* (Sontag, 1964: 287).
 * "In naïve, or pure, Camp, the essential element is seriousness, a seriousness that fails. Of course, not all  seriousness that fails can be redeemed as Camp. Only that which has the proper  mixture of the exaggerated, the fantastic, the passionate, and the naïve."  (Sontag, 1964: 283)
 * "The whole point of Camp is to dethrone the serious. Camp is playful, anti-serious. More precisely, Camp involves a  new, more complex relation to "the serious." One can be serious about  the frivolous, frivolous about the serious." (Sontag, 1964: 288)--Nemissimo (talk) 19:11, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Basics First
Nice attempt, but when writing in English, one should really take proper language usage seriously. Is English a second language? Then get an editor. Attempts to look so "academic" just end up just looking silly when riddled with so many basic grammatical and structural errors. Or... maybe the author was deliberately trying to write in a campy manner, to subtly drive the point home. If so, that aim has been achieved. But, what if this is an example of being campy without meaning to be? Hmmm.... :> Well, whatever the intent, I recommend a competent editor and/or some basic English writing courses. GrannyGM (talk) 02:44, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, there is no prohibition against contributors with English as their second language. Perhaps you could try to improve the language? Or possibly write something in your second language - if you had one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.250.155.55 (talk) 19:55, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Possible italian etymology via Polari?
in the glossary section of the Polari article (which really ought to be moved over to wiktionary, but that's another issue), it links the Polari usage of the word to Italian campare. Given Polari's historical association with the gay community, it seems likely that the word is a borrowing from that dialect into mainstream English, but that's just conjecture on my part. and the italian etymology of the Polari word doesn't seem terribly well-attested either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.225.52.76 (talk) 00:45, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Analysis section IS camp
Read the analysis section. Wouldn't it be a coup to get a large chunk of camp into an article about camp? Can anyone tell if this is meant to be legitimate academic analysis or if this is merely camp itself? And please don't say that there isn't any difference. It reads like something a bored English Lit professor would write and then smugly wait and see how long it stayed in there. We should replace this section with a section on Chia Pets. -- A ntigrandios ËTalk|undefined 22:18, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm impressed that Andrew Ross was writing about Macklemore in 1989. Talk  —Preceding undated comment added 21:00, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Definition of camp varies
The definition of camp in common British English usage (flamboyantly gay) is almost unrelated to the American English usage. Could there be a separate section for this, or even a separate article? 164.11.203.58 (talk) 23:16, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

So where does this stand?
I'm new, or newly returned, to Wikipedia and camp is a research interest of mine. I agree with virtually all of the comments on this page and the Archive--this entry needs a lot of work. But I do not see any concrete planning going on on this talk page. Is that a naive newbie thing to say? How do we decide how to approach this? Do people simply start editing sections piecemeal? As some have said, this entry could perhaps do with restarting from scratch.Mhbroder (talk) 00:55, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

"Analysis"?
Analysis seems like a bad summation title for this article's last section I'm not sure what would be better but maybe someone else can think of a better phrase? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kittenwhip (talk • contribs) 10:00, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

 * What this section is would be pretty decent as crticism (in the sense of "critical essay", not "complaint"), but what it is not is an encyclopedic look at camp. If published critics were being quoted as having said these things it would be different, but this is this particular edit/author's viewpoint, not substansiated fact or documented analysis having previously appeared elsewhere, and as such would seem to violate Wikipedia criteria for inclusion in an article.  (Not only that, but I don't find Judy Garland herself to be particularly camp; it's her many female impersenator portrayers who are generally such.)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.252.79.50 (talk) 20:37, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Not to mention that the Analysis section cites a book published in 1989 when making a claim about Macklemore's "Thrift Shop". --Lionparty (talk)

Unworthy of a supposed encyclopaedia
This article is a mockery. I don't believe that the word 'camp' in American English has anything like the level of usage as it does in British English. I have used the word online many times only to receive question marks from Americans. As it is explained in this article it seems to have a meaning that is vague to non-existent. Where are the proper references to Polari? It refers to British usage as "decades" old, which simply flies in the face of Polari's history over several hundred years (i.e. it was most likely being used when the USA didn't even exist). What this article seems to be about is basically a fragment of the meaning of camp that already exists in the UK. It either needs proper development to show the origins or needs to be removed and replaced by another article.Marcvanderloo (talk) 21:17, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

ABC After School Specials were camp?
As many have already noted, this article is atrocious. Its authors are clearly confused about what exactly camp is. The "ABC Afterschool Specials" were certainly NOT camp in any sense. Dated and preachy perhaps, but not camp. However amusing or 'cheesy' they may seem today, they were intended to be taken seriously at the time; something which is unintentionally amusing because it hasn't aged well is not camp (if it were, just about every serious drama made in the 50s could be called 'camp'). Also, the 80s night time soaps "Dallas" and "Dynasty" weren't camp in any sense of the term, 80s excess notwithstanding. In other places the article seems to conflate camp with drag and 'cheesiness'. This article is in need of serious revision.CannotFindAName (talk) 02:29, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

The entire "Contemporary culture" section is in dire need. It's the longest section of the article yet contains no references whatsoever. It seems to be made up entirely of personal opinions and speculation. At various points the author confuses camp with kitsch, cult, low-budget production, irony, and mere datedness.

The Batman series, the Monty Python sketch referred to, the episode of The Simpsons, the movie Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, and at least some John Waters films all have a place in an article about camp, given proper citations. I would argue that nothing else in this section is a clear-cut example of camp, and most of the "examples" are a very long way from being camp.

The few references to British television are, to my knowledge, factually incorrect. The series Eurotrash was not particularly controversial for a late-night Channel 4 programme, and would not have "fallen foul of OFCOM" if handled in a different style. The Protect and Survive films weren't denied broadcast "for reasons of national security"; they were public information films intended to be broadcast only in the event of impending nuclear war -- and covering a much longer period than the 72 hours stated, since they begin with information on buying supplies and reinforcing the home. The comment that Protect and Survive is "chilling to watch" is a purely personal view and has no place in an encyclopedia. Hery-Tep Medu (talk) 02:19, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

The authors are confused because EVERYBODY is confused, since the word has no actual agreed upon definition. There are dictionary definitions, but what people mean by the word is all over the place (as it is with "corny," cheesy," and "kitsch," although "kitsch" HAS a specific definition that was agreed upon by art critics long ago, but has been bastardized by the clueless general public). You seem to be saying something can't be "camp" if it's UNINTENTIONALLY amusing...it has to be intentional, then, according to you. Well, I would venture a guess that about 50% of the people out there think otherwise, regardless of whether or not you're "correct" (whatever that would mean, since this isn't a word with a clear etymology...and it was famously "defined" or redefined by Susan Sontag in the freak'n 1960s...or at least that's what she attempted to do).

And when you start getting into the "intentionally amusing" part, you start to make the word indistinguishable from satire and/or comedy, which is what basically NOBODY means when they use the word. Sorry, but nobody would call South Park, The Simpsons, George Carlin, and The Onion "campy." Seinfeld wasn't campy. Adam Sandler movies aren't campy.

The word is meaningless. I wish people would figure that out and stop using it...but for whatever reason, it is "accepted fact" that the 60s Batman series is "campy." Like, there's apparently no subjectivity to that with the way the media asserts it as factual...so clearly the definition has to be based in fact. It can't contain "amusing" in any way because that's entirely subjective. Nor can it say anything about the quality of anything, which is again subjective. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.178.250.78 (talk) 23:51, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

Mentos television commercials
"Mentos television commercials during the 1990s developed a cult following due to their camp "Eurotrash" humour."

Should be removed because

One, has no source. Two, most of the Mentos commercials were actually made in America, by Americans and with American actors. Three, in Europe the commercials were actually made fun of because of their "cheesy American humour". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.131.62.156 (talk) 10:16, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

"Dusty Springfield is a camp icon"
I think this article shows that it is (almost) impossible to define 'camp' - when you see/hear/read something that is camp, you either know or don't.

Dusty Springfield was never a camp icon because Dusty Springfield was never camp. She may have become a gay icon (actually she was probably always an icon to gay people).

You can have icons, you can have camp, but a 'camp icon' is meaningless. (pace Encyclopedia Brittanica)

I think I agree with the section 'This Article is SH!T' -you cannot define 'camp' in that way.

Camp is not just effeminate behaviour, it is a style. Julian and Sandy - Bona Bookshop is camp, Are You Being Served isn't.Cannonmc (talk) 02:32, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

 * Camp is all of those things, and yes, Dusty is camp as you like. It's not necessary for it to be in the person producing it. It does also refer to behaviour, conduct, bearing--Americans use the word "campy" in this respect. The shifting and multiple definitions are part of the phenomenon, so it's unsurprising to find that reflected here. And there are, most definitely, many camp icons.  • DP •  {huh?} 16:01, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

"High" art?
WTF is "high art", and who says that it "necessarily incorporates beauty and value"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.249 (talk) 01:06, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

 * The history of western aesthetics says so.  • DP •  {huh?} 15:59, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Lede definition - worldview on camp
Without having the time to address it myself, I wanted to flag up a problem with the lede. User:Florian Blaschke edited to restore a definition based on the sources, which is good of course, and I hadn't seen that it'd acquired a def in terms of "theatricality", which isn't appropriate. However, the current definition is horribly US-centric. Camp doesn't mean ironic and bad taste more generally. It only means that in the USA, where the link to kitsch is dominant. In Britain, it has a far more earthy, carnivaleque meaning (as well as being far more firmly grounded in working-class experience). Seaside postcards, Carry On movies, etc. I'm going to restore "style" too, since "sensibility" is too exclusive (as well as, within critical discourse, a rather old-fashioned way of framing it). It's not necessarily in the personality of the producer. The essays in Politics and Poetics offer plenty of material for a more worldview redefinition for anyone who cares to tackle it.  • DP •  {huh?} 15:58, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not a native speaker of English, which makes it difficult for me to grasp all the nuances and varied meanings of the term. I guess in the UK the concept is more straightforward and lacks the link to gay culture (though not entirely, if it's really associated with Polari in origin), to some extent the inherent disparagement (mainly based on classist, but also, for example, sexist prejudice, considering that US camp and kitsch are all about preferences judged by privileged, highly educated gatekeepers as inferior and shameful – consider the term "guilty pleasure" – and associated with subordinate groups: women and girls, queer people, lower classes, children and teenagers especially) and thus also the level of irony and self-parody necessary to make it "acceptable" again. But don't Brits love to make fun of the ESC? If they don't describe the style as "camp(y)", what do they describe it as?
 * Unfortunately I'm not deep into this topic, either, but after noticing that sections are missing that were in the article once and were still linked from other articles (the whole "Components" section), I went through the history and saw a number of edits I wasn't entirely comfortable with but which were also too old to undo with a simple click. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 16:59, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

No, UK sense doesn't lack the link to gay culture, it's more that it extends out from it. There's no inherent disparagement. The humour is different too (carnivalesque). "Campy" is never used--that's an Americanism. The adjective is simply "camp". If you want to re-import material deleted (checking it's appropriate, of course), go to the old version (not the diff), then click edit. It'll warn you that you're editing an old version. Copy out the section you want then add to the current one. Regards,  • DP •  {huh?} 17:25, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Bitching on the talk page
Looking the article over now, it's in a pretty good state -- though you wouldn't know it from all the bitching on the talk page above. You don't like what it says? Go read the sources, research the subject, and improve the article.  • DP •  {huh?} 16:12, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Adorno
I just removed the reference to Adorno and Frankfurt. While it's true that he does indeed regard the pop culture of industrial societies as a bad thing, I am pretty certain he doesn't discuss camp anywhere. There is of course an argument to be made there about that, but it requires a source (ie someone has already made it) in order not to be original research.  • DP •  {huh?} 16:46, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Lede issues
I think that the lede is a bit too definite about what "Camp" is. The term is used in lots of different ways and the lede should probably reflect this. In Britain it tends to be used for exaggerated and deliberate adoption of effeminate gay stereotypes. I think Quentin Crisp defined it as something like "mimicking the symptoms of a disease from which one does not suffer".  Tigerboy1966  12:23, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Camp (style). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120625073452/http://depthome.brooklyn.cuny.edu/isam/NewsletF05/RandallF05.htm to http://depthome.brooklyn.cuny.edu/isam/NewsletF05/RandallF05.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 19:02, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

'camp actresses'?
Coming to this talk page, I realize that maybe my two cents is redundant -- I see the comments about the article being a 'mockery' and worse. I'm sympathetic. I was merely going to say that I think this quote from the article casts a rather large net:

'Female camp actresses such as Mae West, Judy Garland, Marlene Dietrich, Greta Garbo, Bette Davis, Marilyn Monroe, and Joan Crawford..'

All of those are so-called camp actresses? Such a list I really don't know how to insist that all these women had something in common. I mean, besides that they are women. Here is the complete sentence:

'Female camp actresses such as Mae West, Judy Garland, Marlene Dietrich, Greta Garbo, Bette Davis, Marilyn Monroe, and Joan Crawford also had an important influence on the development of feminist consciousness: by exaggerating certain stereotyped features of femininity, such as fragility, open emotionality or moodiness, they attempted to undermine the credibility of those preconceptions.'

Okay, maybe there is some sort of emphasis here on gender incoherence or such, maybe it's interesting, but I think it would be more interesting as a remark about female impersonators. I mean, maybe Bette Davis and Joan Crawford do strike me as having highly mannered performance styles, but how do Greta Garbo and Marlene Dietrich come into this? I suppose that they strike me as having a sort of 'androgynous' stylization, if that's relevant. But I still don't really see the point about Marilyn Monroe. Again, the list is so far-reaching it just seems to me to encompass nearly every facet of Hollywood stardom.

DanLanglois (talk) 03:21, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Camp (style). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120715000630/http://www.glbtq.com/arts/springfield_d.html to http://www.glbtq.com/arts/springfield_d.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 06:55, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

MST3K
I'm rather surprised that there's no mention of Mystery Science Theater 3000, a show which specifically capitalises on the naive camp of older, campy films. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.168.228.147 (talk) 05:03, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

"Around the world" could be misleading, since the "camp" sensibility is highly localised and restricted geographically
I think the article could give the impression that Camp as a gay sensibility is a worldwide phenomenon. I stand to be corrected, but in my opinion and experience Camp as a gay sensibility is more likely to be a learned behaviour dependent on cultural context, primarily present in urban areas of Anglo-Saxon countries, and extremely rare in most regions of the world (pretty rare in rural areas of the UK too actually). Very few wikipedias in other languages deal with Camp at length like the English one, and those that do tend to have a focus on its development in English-speaking countries (use Google Translate to check if you like). Eurovision is given as an example of Camp in Europe, but Eurovision is also very strongly kitch.

To illustrate this further, I quote below an automatically translated portion of the article on Camp from the French Wikipedia. It basically says (without a source) that the French public and French cultural critics do not identify any concept of Camp when describing people, and that the concept is virtually unknown there. (I find this perfectly plausible, since I personally have run into the gay Camp sensibility much less in Germany for example than in the UK). It also says camp French artists are identified by Anglo-Saxon cultural critics, but maybe the Anglo-Saxon cultural critics are not qualified to interpret French culture and are just seeing what they want to see.

"The camp in France

The camp concept is little known and rarely used in France, either inside or outside the gay community. Films or artists that meet the Anglo-Saxon definition of camp have not been identified as such, either by critics or by the public. However, a significant number of French works, artists and cultural practices express a camp sensibility as described by Anglo-Saxon cultural critics."

To further my point:

- The wikipedia pages on "Stonewall riots", "Pride parade", and "Gay village" are all in more languages than "Camp (style)", and they were/are all geographically restricted. (So maybe we can entertain that Camp is geographically/culturally restricted too.)

- The Japanese Wikipedia says that Camp is one of the terms used in *English-speaking* aesthetics and literary criticism.

- The Danish, Portuguese, Turkish, Welsh, Japanese, Hungarian, Finnish, and Polish wikipedias do not identify to any examples of camp originating from non-Anglophone countries.

- I could not find any native concepts similar to Camp in non-Anglophone Wikipedias in the See Also section at the bottom of each page

- The examples of Camp I have found on all wikis originate overwhelmingly in Anglophone countries. (A small minority originate in German-speaking countries predominately before 1933, elsewhere in Western Europe, Spanish-speaking countries, and South Korea (Gangnam Style) – however, none from the rest of the world.)

I think it would be good if somebody could find the time to locate a source that says Camp as a gay sensibility is primarily an urban Anglo Saxon phenomenon (and secondarily perhaps in urban Western Europe and Latin America). Otherwise readers from rural/non-Western areas will wonder why they have never really come across camp folk themselves.

I did find a couple of non-Anglophone examples of gay camp (though vastly outnumbered by Anglophone ones), which may be useful to mention in the "around the world" section (although I hope the section name will be changed): Spanish Wikipedia automatic translation: “Das lila Lied (1920) is usually classified as the first gay anthem, related to a historical context in the variety theater and bars frequented by LGBT clientele during the closet culture prior to the Stonewall riots and the period of the first homosexual movement .” Dutch Wikipedia automatic translation: “Camp is clearly present in the clips of the Swedish music formation Army of Lovers from the 1990s.” — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.251.199.114 (talk) 12:35, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
 * You're right, and the Globalize maint. template does not belong there. I've removed it. Mathglot (talk) 22:10, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

This talk page needs most of its posts archived!
A lot of the above posts do not actually comment on the article at all, but constitute an occasionally constructive (but more often otherwise) criticism of people with a differently gendered lifestyle than is apparently considered to be "worthy of mention" in an encyclopedia (especially of what is perceived as "gay", or gay-leaning culture - as if THEY had ever contributed to culture!). It (the talk page) really needs a thorough weeding - with the many irrelevant posts moved to a suitably named archive. In the likely event of my NOT undertaking this probably thankless task myself I hope I may be permitted to suggest that whether a particular editor "likes" the subject matter of an article is not all that relevant - if "you" (dear fellow-Wikipedian) don't "like" the fact that Wikipedia includes articles on artistic or literary or religious or even technical topics then don't read (much less edit) things you don't like. And keep your own pet ideas (especially ones based largely on prejudice) to yourself - back anything likely to be in the least contentious with a named source! In this case, even on the talk page.--Soundofmusicals (talk) 20:39, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Negativity
Article needs to be careful not to present camp (or any aesthetic) in a negative light section it’s biased phrasing. This is an encyclopedia not an essay. The analysis section needs possibly deleted because it’s basically one persons overly long argument. 2603:6010:11F0:3C0:4EE:E21F:8554:DF50 (talk) 03:06, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

"artifice, frivolity, naïve middle-class pretentiousness, and shocking excess"
This list of 'elements' of Sontag's essay is repeated twice, once in quotation marks (without and once without. It's misleading as a summary of Sontag. First, the way the quotation is used in the lede makes it look as if it is direct quotation from Sontag's essay, rather than from a book by someone called Harry Eiss making its own argument and briskly summarizing Sontag en passant. Second, Eiss actually talks of "embrace of artifice, frivolity, naïve middle-class pretentiousness, and shocking excess" [emphasis added]: this registers a distance between the sensibility which is doing the embracing here and the naïvity of what it is embracing. Removing these two words makes the summary less exact. Thirdly, 'middle-class pretentiousness' is at some distracting distance from Sontag's own language in the essay. Dsp13 (talk) 12:42, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Camp (style)


text: Category:Protected against vandalism

title: Category:Protected against vandalism


text:
One-liner

One-liner may refer to:

 * One-line joke
 * One-liner program, textual input to the command-line of an operating system shell that performs some function in just one line of input
 * Tagline, a variant of a branding slogan typically used in marketing materials and advertising
 * one-line haiku

title: One-liner


text:
List of football clubs in Croatia

This is a list of association football clubs located in Croatia, sorted by league and division within the Croatian football league system, as of the 2019–20 season. A total of 98 clubs compete in the top three tiers of the Croatian football pyramid, divided as follows:

 * Croatian First Football League (also known as Prva HNL or 1. HNL, with 10 clubs)
 * Croatian Second Football League (also known as Druga HNL or 2. HNL, with 16 clubs)
 * Croatian Third Football League (also known as Treća HNL or 3. HNL, with five regional subdivisions – Centre (16 clubs), East (16 clubs), North (12 clubs), South (16 clubs) and West (12 clubs) – for a total of 72 clubs)

title: List of football clubs in Croatia