text:
Talk:André the Giant

andre's height
Billed height is what he was billed at, not his actual height.

He was 7'1 peak and 6'11 near death —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.46.5.155 (talk) 02:33, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * if he had an hgh secreting pituitary tumour,probably an acidophil adenoma, he would have continued to grow throughout his life. Toyokuni3 (talk) 15:22, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Here are photos of Andre looking 7' with people of known height.GoliathNRock (talk) 05:07, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Frenchy Bernard (Frenchy Bernard is Andre's closest friend and is the guy who runs Andre's ranch in North Carolina) tells Andre was measured at 7' 0.5 when he was 22 years of age in Japan and was around 6'9 at time of death due to the fact he could not stand any taller due to spinal curvature.

Ronnie Russell says on 27/Feb/09 OK.....i will be posting a youtube video of the audio of the conversation i talk about below some time in the near future when i have a way to get the mini-tape recorder converted to an *.mp3

I stopped by Andre's ranch in Ellerby, NC, which is now run by some little cajun man named Bernard who has a terrible accent and spits when he talks...

Anyways, he was very nice and hospitible and loves having people visit the ranch and showing them the "Andre Archives" as it were. Some of the artifacts he has there are incredible. He travelled with Andre from the late sixties/early seventies and then again towards the end of his career when he was having a lot of mobility problems. He said at Andre's peak in his youth, when he didn't have any posture problems, he was 7'0.5", measured in japan when he was 22, and that he was around 6'9" at the time of death, because he couldnt stand any taller because of spinal curvature. He also told me that because of his medical condition causing a constant secretion of growth hormone, his bones and organs continued to grow in density and size straight through to the time of his death, so not only did he weigh alot from his fat, but his bones weighed more and his organs did as well.

ANYWAYS, going back to the official "billing" of him being 7'0.25" seems to specific of a number for promoters to lie about, simply because a shady exaggerating promoter would round up to 7'1" or 7'2". i think based on these two facts, the converstaion with someone who knew him personally and also offical measurements, combined with the now several photos of andre standing next to 7'1.16" wilt chamberlain(as measured by the Guiness in 1978, dave melzter was wrong about wilt's height in his article with that photo), I think it is safe to say we can change his official PEAK height to at LEAST 7'0.25", not this 6'11.5" non-sense.

OHHH and BTW, i spoke with former governor Jesse Ventura recently when he was visiting down here in miami with his wife, that Hulk Hogan used to wear 1.5 inch lifts in his wrestling boots often in his career, because he was billed as being "bigger" than incredible hulk star Lou Ferrigno, who was listed at 6'5". Jesse said Hogan was an inch taller than him barefoot, and he was 6'4.5" at his peak. This is how Hogan got his 6'7"-6'8" billing to be believeable.

Also, Jesse said that Big John Studd wore lifts when he wrestled Andre, because he wanted to appear bigger next to him, but he did not have first hand knowledge of exactly how tall BJS was because he never wrestled him or hung out with him. GoliathNRock (talk) 20:52, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It is original research and cannot be added.Halbared (talk) 08:48, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Here in Andre's obituary it states Andre's measurements at death at 6'10 555 pounds. It also states that Andre was near 7' his whole life and due to surgery on his knees where he had chunks of bone removed and surgery on a weakened spine causing him to slouch so he was 6'10 at death. http://www.wrestlingclassics.com/wawli/Nos.281-289.html GoliathNRock (talk) 18:40, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Before his WWF run, Andre was advertised as 6'10 and that always includes footwear so 6'9 was probarly his real height (his disease caused him to grow his entire life and if he was 6'10 when he died, thats it... thats the tallest he could been) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.145.38.52 (talk) 12:47, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

 * "...that's the tallest he could have been." Sorry, you are incorrect.  Curvature of the spine (scoliosis), only one of Andre's health issues, can reduce height by several inches depending on the severity.  I have had mild scoliosis for 10 years and am only 47 but I have already lost an inch and a half of height - and I was only 5'6" to begin with plus do not have the osteohyperdensity that Andre had.  Scoliosis can not only affect posture and prevent one from standing up straight for height to be measured, but even lying down or measuring a body or skeleton would not reveal what his height was at its peak.  History Lunatic (talk) 17:37, 22 October 2014 (UTC)History Lunatic
 * Two of the three refrences cited in the current revision of the article have him at 6 ft 11 in, but the article shows 7 ft 4 in instead.--99.232.1.160 (talk) 01:03, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Andre was billed 2,14m (7´0.25")arriving in Canada in 1971 age 25 it´s on YouTube. Speaking French Andre claims 2,14m(7´0.25") in another yt-vid from that time. Andre also claimed he grew in height until age 24.

So with all this information it´s pretty safe to say he was measured 2,14m (7´0.25")as a young healthy man without scoliosis and weight problems. After more than a decade of wrestling he still looked 6´11"-6´11.5" during late seventies/early eighties and went down to 6´9"-6´10" after surgery, scoliosis and weight problems.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.238.52.137 (talk) 11:03, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Birthplace
This A&E Biography on him says that he was born in Molien. 70.49.241.126 (talk) 02:46, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

 * It's a wrong information, He was born at Coulommiers at the hospital (about 20 km of Molien). His mother never came to Grenoble, so it's impossible for him to be born in Grenoble.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.35.171.149 (talk) 03:12, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:AndreTheGiantSticker.gif
The image File:AndreTheGiantSticker.gif is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --14:53, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Different Picture
The picture in the infobox needs to be changed because it isn`t the greatest picture. Mr. C.C. (talk) 21:48, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 * True, but it is free. If you can find us a free picture that is better, by all means upload it to Wikimedia Commons and replace the current one with the new one.  Powers T 12:07, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * What about http://i.imgur.com/2VgvT.jpg? Twipley (talk) 20:28, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 * What is that image's copyright status? Powers T 12:45, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Unknown, for all I can tell. http://www.tineye.com/search/a489dff26756e30bc627456c34e3e68092ecfdc2 Twipley (talk) 00:08, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Help !
We have a problem on wp:fr about the birth place of Andre the Giant. Could you give an answer even in english. Thanks.... Mikeread. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.3.231.47 (talk) 13:29, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

How he could be born in Grenoble when his mother never came to Grenoble ? He was born in Coulommiers, 20 miles from Molien (France). Boris, Andre's nephew.

Polish and Bulgarian?
Considering that André was born and raised in France and AFAIK there's no evidence he either spoke Bulgarian or Polish, or ever wrote his name in either of those languages, and also considering that this is the English Wikipedia, is there any particular reason the Bulgarian and Polish transcriptions of his name shouldn't be deleted from this page? Thefamouseccles (talk) 14:03, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

When did his illness take hold?
The Early Life section starts by saying that "As a child, he was referred to by his parents as Dédé and showed no signs of the size that he would reach"; his size isn't mentioned during the rest of the section, and in the next section he embarks on his wrestling career. When did his gigantism take hold? Presumably before he started wrestling, but it's not clear from the article. While I'm at it, do they have "8th grade" in Belgium? Was the farm he is said to work on owned by his family? -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 13:05, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

 * Acromegaly usually begins with the onset of puberty. History Lunatic (talk) 17:47, 22 October 2014 (UTC)History Lunatic

andre's billing
Andre was being billed at 7'4 before he ever met the McMahon's so that part is false. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.218.29.253 (talk) 00:19, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Cut the bullhits! Andre was never taller than 6'10 so i suggest you put up or shutup! im sick of these fankids who believe the wrestlers were tall as their listed heights and can never prove a shit. Atleast i can prove that Andre was billed 6'10 in 1969! he is at bottom right, "JEAN FERRE" and listed 6'10 http://s15.postimage.org/4ggxbvgl5/6_10_andre_giant.jpg
 * In their heads they have no accurate concept of what these heights are anyway - 7 feet just seems like a nice psychological barrier to break (arbitrary as it may be). I doubt there would be as much arguing over whether someone was 211cm or 214cm. -101.168.213.74 (talk) 03:02, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * André might well have been billed as 6'10" in 1969, but don't forget that he had gigantism and acromegaly, and that he was only 23 in 1969. His growth pattern was anything but normal and it's quite possible he might have put on another few inches after 1969. Thefamouseccles (talk) 01:41, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Andre was billed 208cm, 209cm, 210cm, 211cm & 214cm before he went to Canada — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.238.52.137 (talk) 10:48, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Gigantism?
His condition seemed more consistent with acromegaly than gigantism. The two conditions are easily confused due to the fact that they both cause a person to grow very large, however acromegaly is a serious health problem while gigantism is not so serious. Acromegaly would have likely been the cause for his various health concerns and contributed to his his eventual death. Back and heart problems are very common amongst people suffering from acromegaly, but not so much gigantism. 70.69.129.43 (talk) 21:57, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

I'd have to disagree, if he simply had acromegaly, he would not have grown to the size that he did. While it could be possible that he may have had both conditions, the abnormal size is undoubtedly gigantism. Both gigantism and acromegaly are conditions involving excessive production of growth hormone, the only main difference is when the onset of that excessive amount happened. In gigantism, the excessive growth hormone is around before the epiphyseal plates have had a chance to close; these folks will be abnormally tall (compared to the general population) but will, for the most part, be evenly big/tall. In acromegaly, the epiphyseal plates have already fused and therefore these individuals will tend to have growth of their flat bones (they'll have coarse facial features, large hands, feet, etc), however, their long bones (arms/legs) will not grow and longer, so these people won't have abnormal height. Both sets are typically going to have enlarged organs (heart, etc) which is what will commonly lead to their deaths (heart failure) 76.76.169.115 (talk) 17:52, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

The above poster is correct. Both acromegaly and gigantism have the same root causes. Most likely Andre had gigantism as a result of an excess of GH before his epiphyseal closed. He still had this hormonal imbalance after he reached maturity, so he developed acromegaly. The line in the beginning of the article that says " His size was a result of acromegaly" is factually incorrect, and should be changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.183.177.249 (talk) 04:15, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Gigantism normally has onset in childhood while accidentally occurs at the onset of puberty. Since Andre's parents stated that as a child there were no signs of Andre's condition, while by the age of 17 his condition was quite noticeable, the most reasonable conclusion would be that he had acromegaly. History Lunatic (talk) 18:00, 22 October 2014 (UTC)History Lunatic

Education
Do we have to use "8th grade" for someone who isn't even in the American school system? How about just listing his age when he left school. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.50.247.145 (talk) 15:36, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Mythical French Giant?
" Roussimoff was billed as "Géant Ferré", taken from the name of a mythical French giant, "

This requires citation - I can find no documentation of a mythical French giant under that name, nor do any native French individuals of my acquaintance know of any such figure. "Géant Ferré" appears to be a mild pun on the name under which Andre wrestled in France, "Jean Ferré", particularly as the French for "Iron Giant" would actually be "Le Géant de Fer". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.225.61.39 (talk) 06:04, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

He wrestled in Canada under the name Giant Jean Ferré. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.88.11.188 (talk) 18:55, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Feuds?
I don't get this feud-business. Wrestling is a show sport, so how can you feud if the fighting is make-believe? The career-section is written as if actual competitions is going on.

On another note, this article: http://www.drunkard.com/issues/10_06/10_06_andre_giant.html, bills André as one of the greatest drinkers in history. I can't vouch for the provenance but if it's remotely true, I think his capacity for drink deserves a mention. //roger.duprat.copenhagen — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.138.244.225 (talk) 21:04, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree, the feud portion of the article is ridiculous and too long. Astator (talk) 02:55, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Agree as well. Obviously edited by fans of him and wrestling, who believe what they were watching was actually a real competition. But I don't care enough to change any of it. YingYang2 (talk) 04:46, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. An expert is needed to determine which (if any) of the feuds are real, otherwise this becomes false information. Andre is painted as someone who couldn't get along with people, and yet other Hollywood stars spoke well of him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:147:C002:D83A:B1E7:90BF:B521:F467 (talk) 23:19, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Andre's Actual Weight
Andre the Giant's WWE.com alumni bio says he weighs 520, can I change it to that? I have a source here @ http://www.wwe.com/superstars/andrethegiant.

WWE is not a reliable source they clearly exaggerate heights and weights --Apemonkey1 (talk) 07:41, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Orphaned references in André the Giant
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of André the Giant's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "view1": From Dave Batista:  From Big Show:

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 16:04, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Birthplace
He's born in Coulommiers, Seine-et-Marne 1 (Internet Wrestling Database), 2 (IMDB) and 3 (Wrestlingdata). It's talk about this in André the Giant larger than life a documentary.--Sismarinho (talk) 09:53, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

False information
"When André underwent surgery in 1987, his size made it impossible for the anesthesiologist to estimate a dosage via standard methods; consequently, his alcohol tolerance ("it usually takes two liters of vodka just to make me feel warm inside") was used as a guideline instead.[73]"

THe source clearly states that this was just a legend. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.171.39.114 (talk) 02:29, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Added the phrase "Legend has it that" to the beginning of the story, quoting verbatim from the source. History Lunatic (talk) 18:12, 22 October 2014 (UTC)History Lunatic

The entire pro wrestling description in this wiki is depicted as "real" competition, where in fact the fights are by highly trained athletes, but choreographed, and with predetermined outcomes. The outline of the fight section of the wiki can be improved by describing them as scripted roles, or credited events, like a stuntman. May 14, 2015. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hugethorn (talk • contribs) 17:24, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Added Failed Verification tag here because the reference only supports the claim that the urban legend exists, not that this technique is now commonly used by anesthesiologists. Tsattolo (talk) 20:25, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Where is Africa
"Roussimoff began making a name for himself wrestling in the United Kingdom, Germany, Australia, New Zealand, and Africa"....I don't know but I don't think there's a country called Africa? Bobby shabangu  talk  13:04, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Death date
I'm moving conversations from two editors' talk pages here, concerning Andre's death date. It seems that his death certificate says Jan. 28, not 27. I've gone to contemporaneous obits, as detailed below, and the first ones, in late January of that year, give no date. The first mention I could find of Jan. 27 is in a Feb. 8 obit in The Guardian. The death certificate probably would not have been available so quickly, and so it appears as if The Guardian may have gotten the date wrong and it's been promulgated from there.

Confounding matters, however, is that Andre's official site gives Jan. 27. However, the family-members/estate are not journalists, and anyone writing on the official site would simply have used whatever is given in reference sources rather than going to the death certificate.

One way or another, the discrepancy between the death certificate and the generally given date needs to be addressed. I'm not sure the best way to do it, and ask other editors to pitch in and brainstorm.

In the meantime, here's the discussion thus far:

Posted on Tenebrae talk page

 * Hi Tenebrae,

 * Remember me ? I would like to give you two little secrets about André the Giant. First one, he is not born in Grenoble like wiki says, no no, but in Coulommiers, Seine-et-Marne. Second, he has not gone to a better world January 27, 1993...but the day after, January 28. I can even tell you he passed away on January 28, 1993 at 6:20 p.m. in Paris. Sure. I will give you a link so you can view his death certificate. It's about in the half-bottom of the page. It's written in French but if you want I can translate it for you. Just to say that "jeudi vingt-huit janvier mil neuf cent quatre vingt treize..." means "thursday twenty-eight january one thousand nine hundred ninety three...". (Forget the %?"@² WWF and after WWE who gives Grenoble as his birthplace to impress the people...). I also let a message on the French version of wiki. Them had already put Coulommiers but have done the same error to put his death as January 27.

http://www.findadeath.com/Deceased/g/Andre_The_Giant/andre.htm

Sincerely, --Danielvis08 (talk) 03:58, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

 * Here is the translation (excuse my poor english...):

 * TOWNHALL OF PARIS
 * Death certificate - Full copy
 * Register   :   283
 * Number of the certificate : 29

 * ""Thursday twenty-eight of january one thousand nine hundred and ninety-three, at twenty past six in the afternoon (p.m) (note that dix-huit means eighteen (6 in the morning + 12 means 6 in the afternoon), has died 14 de la Trémoille street, André René Roussimoff, born on May 19 1946 at Coulommiers (Seine-et-Marne), wrestler, residind postal box 572 at Ellerbe, state of North Carolina (United States of America), son of Stoeff ROUSSIMOFF, dead, and of Marianne MARASJECK, retired, residing at Molien, Ussy-sur-Marne (Seine-et-Marne), single. **********"

 * "Written on January 29 1993 at 30 past 3 p.m., on the declaration of Thierry VANDEMAëLE, 36 years old, clerk, 12 Abel street in Paris 12th, hence reading done and guested to read the certificate (declaration), signed with us Michèle SENEJOUX, wife BOUDY, municipal civil servant acting in matter of civilian state by assignment of the Mayor of the eight subdivision of Paris. MB. *********"

 * "Copy according to the original certificate preserved by the townhall of the eight subdivision of Paris."

 * "delivered March 28, 2012"

 * Look at this nice site in French, my friend... -> http://www.cineartistes.com/fiche-Andr%E9+The+Giant.html  --Danielvis08 (talk) 09:41, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

 * You see Tenebrae, this site in French is dedicated to actors and actresses of international cinema. It's a friend of mine who has it, Philippe Pelletier. He lives in Paris and works for TV5 Monde. He collects birth and death certificates from all over the world. He told me he has about 25000 of them. When I told him about André The Giant, he told me that he has his death certificate also but he hasn't scanned it yet but he created the article André The Giant today and he told me when it will be scanned he will put it on his site. I corrected in wiki french many dates that were wrong because from France there are a lot of birth certificates online. But it has yet more errors to correct. Imagine in english wiki, also. He also had errors on his site (my friend Philippe) but I helped him correct a lot. And believe me or not, I think this site for birth and death dates is the most accurate on the net. He put certificates online a little bit by little bit. It's always in the section "Autres" (Others). Example: I found on BAnQ (Bibliothèque des archives nationales du Québec) the birth certificate of Norma Shearer. All the sites on the net will gives you August 10, 1902. No. It's August 11, 1902... http://www.cineartistes.com/fiche-Norma+Shearer.html Click on "autres" then click on the act itself to enlarge it. See ? I showed you an act in English so you can read it. I will see if I find another act that isn't in French that he has on his site and if english wiki is wrong, I will show you the act (certificate). Thanks, my friend. --Danielvis08 (talk) 10:14, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

Posted on Danielvis08 talk page
Yes but, me I read French and I know what it is. I just sent a message to the WWE to tell them to correct that on their site. I don't know if they speak french so I translate it a little for them. Maybe they will correct it, maybe not. We will have to wait. And findadeath is not a reliable source since they have the death certificate from the mairie de Paris and they put in the beginning of their article that he died January 27. Obviously the guy don't understand french and he don't know that "vingt-huit" means "twenty-eight" in English. Thanks. --Danielvis08 (talk) 04:47, 18 July 2016 (UTC) Let me about 30 minutes and I will translate all for you. --Danielvis08 (talk) 04:50, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

 * Thanks, Daniel. I'll need a couple of days to get to this because of work — it's going to be complicated since we're dealing with a primary source that contradicts secondary sources. But I think it can be phrased in a way that addresses both. In the meantime, I'd like to see if we can find a contemporaneous newspaper account — maybe a French newspaper that reported on his death. The date of the paper would be significant. --Tenebrae (talk) 02:06, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

 * Actually, I just saw that you've translated the death certificate ... merci! ... and http://www.cineartistes.com/fiche-Andr%E9+The+Giant.html now is a secondary source that has Jan. 28. I think this might be easier to address than I thought. I'll go back into it tomorrow. With deep regards, my colleague, -- Tenebrae (talk) 02:10, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

 * And if you click on "Autres" in the page of André The Giant in Cineartistes.com you will see that my friend Philippe Pelletier has insert his copy of death certificate that he asked at the townhall of Paris... you click on "Autres" then on the act itself to enlarge it... Thanks. --Danielvis08 (talk) 18:36, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

 * I'm looking through contemporaneous obituaries, and I think you'll find this interesting: The New York Times obit doesn't give a death date! It only says, "died this week". Continuing to look around.... --Tenebrae (talk) 21:41, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

 * CBS Sports biography says, "died of heart failure some time after lying down in his bed on January 26, 1993," which shows uncertainty there, too. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:48, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

 * Some more. The Los Angeles Times obit says, "The exact time of his death was not immediately known." I'm really wondering where "January 27" originated. Because as you show, the death certificate says "January 28." I wonder if it was January 28 in France but because of time-zone differences it was January 27 in the U.S.? --Tenebrae (talk) 21:51, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

 * Where I can we run into difficulty is Andre the Giant's official website, run by his estate. The official biography says born in Grenoble, France, and "died in Paris, France in his hotel room on January 27, 1993." We're going to have to find wording to address the discrepancy. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:54, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

 * A capsule obit in the British paper The Independent, date February 8, is the earliest one I've seen that gives January 27. That seems to disavow the time-zone hypothesis. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:58, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Here is a site in english that in the beginning said he died January 27 but in the middle of the page there are 2 paragraphs written at the right of the photo where Andre holds a stone. On the second paragraph it tells that he died January 28... http://www.thehistorybomb.com/articles/2015/1/28/this-week-in-wrestling-history-the-world-loses-its-giant The confusion must have come that André visits Paris the 27 to attend his father's funerals but he died the 28 in his hotel room and if you want to contact my friend who has his birth certificate he tell me you can contact him via his talk page on wikipedia in french or you can e-mail him, he will show you his death certificate and can translate it for you if you don't believe me. I told of you and he said it'ok if you want to contact him. Thanks. --Danielvis08 (talk) 22:18, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

 * Probably he went in his hotel room the 27 and when they knocked at the door the 28 to take news from him he doesn't answer so they must had thought something was wrong so they broke the door at 20 past 6 p.m and they found him dead...so if they don't know when exactly he died they on the death certificate they put the earliest time it was SURE he was dead...when he was discovered dead at 20 past 6 p.m. on January 28. --Danielvis08 (talk) 22:49, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

 * I would like also attire your attention on the first name of his father on his death certificate... STOEFF, it's sound not great like BORIS from what WWF claimed... you see when I was young when we watched wrestling at TV they said that Abdullah the Butcher came from Africa, in fact I discovered later he was born in a small town in Ontario...--Danielvis08 (talk) 22:57, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

 * I'm wondering if the best way to approach this is through a formal WP:RfC. Even though we have a secondary source with a copy of the birth certificate, I think making the change based even on this thorough discussion would be controversial. I think, given that we have the death certificate itself, that a solid case can be made for Jan. 28 and that the Jan. 27 date was error possibly originating in The Independent and then repeated through the years. Does this sound like a practical plan? --Tenebrae (talk) 22:24, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

It's been about 11 days. If no one responds after two weeks, I will add the date given on the death certificate and a footnote regarding the discrepancy. I'm hoping for more inut and comments.--Tenebrae (talk) 16:51, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 one external links on André the Giant. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.thesmokinggun.com/mugshots/andregiantmug1.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080415151636/http://www.100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/pages/pwi/pwimpoty.htm to http://www.100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/pages/pwi/pwimpoty.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 15:05, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 5 external links on André the Giant. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20051021042204/http://www.wwe.com/shows/wrestlemania/history/wm1/factsstats/ to http://www.wwe.com/shows/wrestlemania/history/wm1/factsstats/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20051029102035/http://www.wwe.com/shows/wrestlemania/history/wm2/results/ to http://www.wwe.com/shows/wrestlemania/history/wm2/results/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050624001310/http://www.wwe.com/inside/titlehistory/wwechampionship/304454122 to http://www.wwe.com/inside/titlehistory/wwechampionship/304454122
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050720013735/http://www.wwe.com/inside/titlehistory/worldtagteam/3044541321111121 to http://www.wwe.com/inside/titlehistory/worldtagteam/3044541321111121
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20051128115003/http://www.wwe.com/inside/titlehistory/worldtagteam/3044541321241 to http://www.wwe.com/inside/titlehistory/worldtagteam/3044541321241

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 01:42, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Page views
If anyone's curious about the recent spike in page views, then I've been told that it coincides with https://www.facebook.com/wikipedia/posts/10155536995713346 Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:54, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on André the Giant. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110104024432/http://pwhf.org/halloffamers/bios/andre.asp to http://www.pwhf.org/halloffamers/bios/andre.asp

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 16:59, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Celebrity endorsements
This article fails to mention any and all celebrity endorsements. I know that Andre appeared in Honey Comb cereal commercials in the US in the 1980's. Did he have any other endorsements? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:147:C002:D83A:B1E7:90BF:B521:F467 (talk) 23:16, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Who owns his farm now?
His daughter inherited it? But I hear she went bankrupt? Does she still own it?--Apemonkey1 (talk) 07:50, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:51, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Andre the Giant & Tommy Seigler.jpg

Date format
Why is the date formate -Use mdy dates- when this is an article about a French person?Halbared (talk) 19:21, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

First national T.V. mention in U.S. 1974? (though not specifically by name)
This seems like useful information, albeit of minor importance. I was watching an old re-run of The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson with actor McLean Stevenson. At some point McLean pulls a newspaper clipping out of his pocket that advertises an upcoming match of Andre's. Carson and McLean don't discuss him by name, but discuss his physical proportions from the article which McLean holds up for the camera. It is clearly a picture of Andre, maybe even the newspaper image with arms spread open already on his page. The episode featured Stevenson, George Carlin, Gene Hackman, and Gloria DeHaven and originally aired on March 21, 1974. Although Andre was known regionally in wrestling circles, this is possibly the first time he received any national exposure. Is this likelihood significant enough to include on Andre's page?Zeusnj (talk) 10:10, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

"Retirement"
The 2020 biography by Hébert and Laprade (2020) is very clear that André did not consider himself retired at the time of his death: "he couldn't imagine himself doing anything else [...] retirement would have bored André to death (p.383). Please do not reinsert this claim without a contemporaneous source of André announcing his retirement. McPhail (talk) 21:51, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Cricket
How on earth would a French country boy acquire a love of cricket in order to discuss it with Samuel Beckett? That can't be true. Of course someone may have claimed it, but an extraordinary claim should be reported as a claim rather than a fact, surely. Aredbeardeddwarf (talk) 09:28, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Height
89.178.40.189 (talk) 19:56, 22 January 2022 (UTC) He wasn't 7'4" that is exaggeration, more 7'0" max. WWE always inflating height.

 * The "billed height" field shows the height wrestlers were announced at, as real heights are pretty much impossible to ascertain unless you have access to medical records or similar. McPhail (talk) 17:46, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

89.178.40.189 (talk) 10:46, 24 January 2022 (UTC) I know, but i think that is better represented his height. And he has claimed seven feet

Why body to USA?
Why did his (dead) body get shipped to USA for cremation? Was that (cremation) not possible in France? 2A02:3035:418:2D01:2:2:9828:AE5E (talk) 02:58, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

 * From the Hebert/Laprade book: "Andre wanted to be cremated, but there was no crematorium in France large enough for him [...] They finally found a crematorium that could take care of him in Pinehurst, North Carolina, near his home." McPhail (talk) 08:33, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Dead link ref. no 2
Reference #2 is dead, not found on webpage. No archive linked. 210.1.196.233 (talk) 09:34, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

 * Now fixed. McPhail (talk) 13:27, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Name
Why is he referred to as Rousimoff throughout the entry. Other wrestlers e.g. Gorilla Monsoon and Hulk Hogan, are referred to by their ring name. 92.40.218.172 (talk) 22:32, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:André the Giant


text:
Kalulushi

Kalulushi is a town in the Copperbelt Province in north central Zambia. It is located on the M18 road, just west of Kitwe. Municipal (district) population was 75,806 at the 2000 census. Kalulushi emerged as a planned company town with the development of mining Companies in the mid-20th century - initially housing the main offices for the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines. Economic activity in Kalulushi (as well as the surrounding area) declined severely with the closure of 2 Shaft and 7 Shaft Mining sites.

There is a famous story of the origin of the name Kalulushi. The story goes like this. Two gentlemen went hunting for rabbits. Rabbits, in the local Lamba language, are referred to as "kalulu." During their hunt they eventually spotted one rabbit. One of the gentlemen in excitement called out "kalulu!". The other gentlemen quietly told his friend, "shhhh" in order to avoid alarming the rabbit and prevent the rabbit from running away. So that's how the name Kalulushi came about. And so the story goes. Kalulushi was established in 1953 as a company town for workers at the nearby Chibuluma copper and cobalt mine, and it became a public town in 1958. It is located 14 km (9 mi) west of Kitwe, the nearest rail station, at an altitude of 1,260 m (4,130 ft). The city's major employer is Chambishi metals. The Chati Forest Reserve west of the city manages large plantations of eucalyptus, tropical pine, and other exotic tree species supplying wood for the mining industry. The Woods are also supplied to ZESCO an electricity company.

Schools in Kalulushi

 * Kalulushi trust school
 * Chavuma high school
 * Kalulushi high school
 * Angels Park School
 * Lions Park School
 * Mitobo Combined school
 * Lubuto Basic School
 * Masamba Basic School
 * Kankonshi secondary school
 * St. Marcellins secondary school
 * Chati south boarding school
 * Third-Day private school
 * Bwaka Private School
 * Chasi Academy school
 * Chavuma Basic School

Universities and Colleges
Kalulushi has one University and two College:

Zambia Catholic University is a private owned university located in President Avenue, Kalulushi, Zambia and run by the Zambia Episcopal Conference, the university is located in Kalulushi.

The university opened in April 2008. As of 2011, degrees could be earned in education, development studies, business administration, economics, banking and finance, accountancy, human resource management and business information technology. In June 2011, student enrollment stood at 386.

Extracurricular activities include rowing, football, basketball, volleyball, bocce ball, the Utopian university magazine, the Social Action Committee and student unions for Catholics and non-Catholics.

The District is also home two colleges:

Kalulushi College of Nursing (KCN) is a privately owned College which is located in Tigwilizane street off President Avenue, the college which offers Nursing training was opened in 2017 and it has about 500 students.

Chibuluma College of Health Sciences is on a 12 hectare piece of land along the road to Chibuluma Mine. The college offers self-catering accommodation. The college has a multi-purpose sports court catering for tennis, volleyball, basketball, soccer.

Mining
Kalulushi has the following mines:
 * 2 Shaft - Closed in the 90's
 * 7 Shaft - Closed in 2005
 * Chambishi Metals Plc
 * NFC Africa Mining Plc
 * Chibuluma Mines Plc
 * Chambishi Copper Smelter
 * Kagem Mining Limited
 * Gemcanton Mining Services Ltd

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Kalulushi


text:
USS Sims (DD-409)

USS Sims (DD-409) was the lead ship of her class of destroyers in the United States Navy during World War II. She was the first ship to be named for William Sims, an Admiral who pushed for the modernization of the Navy.

Construction and commissioning
Sims was laid down on 15 July 1937 by Bath Iron Works Corporation in Bath, Maine. She was launched on 8 April 1939, sponsored by Mrs. Anne Erwin Sims, and commissioned on 1 August 1939.

Inter-War Period
After shakedown training in the Caribbean and post-shakedown availability in the Boston Navy Yard, Sims joined the Atlantic Squadron at Norfolk, Virginia on 2 August 1940. The destroyer operated with the Neutrality Patrol in Caribbean and South Atlantic waters. In November–December 1940, Sims patrolled off Martinique. On 28 May 1941, the ship arrived at Newport, Rhode Island, and began operating from there. She sailed for Iceland on 28 July with an American task force. In August, the destroyer patrolled the approaches to Iceland. In September–October, the ship made two North Atlantic patrols. Sims had been attached to Destroyer Squadron 2 (DesRon 2) since she began making Neutrality Patrols.

World War II
With the outbreak of war on 7 December 1941, DesRon 2 became part of Task Force 17 (TF17) formed around USS Yorktown (CV-5). The task force sortied from Norfolk on 16 December 1941 for San Diego, California. From there, it sailed as part of a convoy taking Marines to Samoa, arriving on 23 January 1942.

At the time, it was believed that the Japanese would attack Samoa to sever Allied communications with Australia. To thwart such a move, a carrier raid against Japanese bases in the Marshall Islands was planned. The Yorktown task force was to strike the islands of Mili, Jaluit, and Makin, while another force centered on USS Enterprise (CV-6) was to hit Kwajalein, Wotje, and Maloelap.

TF 17 departed Samoa on 25 January, with Sims in the screen. At 1105 on 28 January, she sighted an enemy bomber. At 1114, a stick of four bombs fell approximately 1,500 yards astern, straddling the wake of the destroyer. The next day, the two carrier forces and a bombardment group attacked the islands and withdrew.

Sims, with TF 17, sailed from Pearl Harbor on 16 February to attack Wake Island. Shortly after departing, their sailing orders were changed, and they proceeded to the Canton Island area. Canton is a small island on the Honolulu-New Caledonia air route, and it was thought to be endangered by the Japanese.

By early March, the Japanese had occupied Lae and Salamaua on the north coast of New Guinea. To check this drive, a carrier strike was launched on 10 March from USS Lexington (CV-2) and Yorktown. Sims remained near Rossel Island in the Louisiade Archipelago with a force of cruisers and destroyers to protect the carriers from enemy surface ships. Sims next operated in the New Caledonia-Tonga Islands area.

Battle of the Coral Sea
In late April 1942, a Japanese task force was assembled to begin operations in support of Japanese moves towards Australia. This consisted of a covering group to protect landing forces on Tulagi and Port Moresby and a striking force to eliminate Allied shipping in the Coral Sea. JAPANESE AIRCRAFT CARRIER Shōhō was attached to the covering force, and JAPANESE AIRCRAFT CARRIER Shōkaku and JAPANESE AIRCRAFT CARRIER Zuikaku were the striking force under command of Admiral Takeo Takagi. The American ships were divided into task forces centered on Lexington and Yorktown. Sims was ordered to escort USS Neosho. The task force refueled on 5–6 May and then detached Neosho and Sims to continue to the next fueling point.

On the morning of 7 May, a search plane from the Japanese striking force sighted the oiler and destroyer and reported them to Admiral Takagi as a carrier and a cruiser. Takagi ordered an all-out attack. At 0930, 15 high level bombers attacked the two ships but did no damage. At 1038, 10 attacked the destroyer, but skillful maneuvering evaded the nine bombs that were dropped. A third attack against the two ships by 36 Val dive bombers was devastating. Neosho was soon crippled and burning aft as the result of seven direct hits and one plane that dived into her.

Sims was attacked from all directions. The destroyer defended herself as best she could. Three 250 kg bombs hit the destroyer. Two exploded in the engine room, and within minutes, the ship buckled amidships and began to sink, stern first. As Sims slid beneath the waves, there was a tremendous explosion that raised what was left of the ship almost 15 ft out of the water. Chief R. J. Dicken, in a damaged whaleboat, picked up 15 other survivors. They remained with Neosho until they were rescued by USS Henley (DD-391) on 11 May. Sims was struck from the Naval Vessel Register on 24 June 1942.

Awards
Sims received two battle stars for World War II service.

title: USS Sims (DD-409)


text:
A Pagan Place

A Pagan Place is the second studio album by the Waterboys, released by Ensign Records on 28 May 1984. It was the first Waterboys record with Karl Wallinger as part of the band and also includes Roddy Lorimer's first trumpet solo for the band on the track "A Pagan Place".

The album shares a title with the book A Pagan Place, written by Irish novelist Edna O'Brien. According to a post at the official Waterboys forum, Mike Scott, who chose the album name, has never read the book, and neither the album nor the title track share any other similarities with the novel.

Production history
Recording for A Pagan Place was begun before either the band's first single, "A Girl Called Johnny", or album, The Waterboys, were released. The album comprises two recording sessions. The first, in November 1982 at Redshop Studio in London, involved Mike Scott, Anthony Thistlethwaite and Kevin Wilkinson. The second session, held September 1983 at Rockfield Studio in Wales, included contributions from Wallinger, who had joined the band that year. The four, the early band's core membership, were joined by Lorimer, Tim Blanthorn, and Eddi Reader, among others, for later overdubbing of the sessions to add full instrumentation to the recordings.

A remastered, edited and expanded version of A Pagan Place was issued in 2002 by Chrysalis Records. It added the song "Some of My Best Friends Are Trains", not present on the original LP release, as track 5, and replaced the original versions of "All the Things She Gave Me" and "The Thrill Is Gone" with their full, unedited versions. "The Thrill Is Gone" also features a different vocal take. In the sleeve notes, Scott explained that edited versions of the two songs were included to keep the duration of each side of the LP to around 20 minutes for sound quality reasons, although he has always considered the full, unedited versions to be the "real" ones.

Songs
A Pagan Place expanded the Waterboys' treatment of spiritual themes beyond the Christian beliefs of "December" from The Waterboys. "A Church Not Made With Hands" is an ode to a woman who "is everywhere and no place / Her church not made with hands".

Both "All the Things She Gave Me" and "The Thrill is Gone" discuss the end of a romantic relationship. "Rags" and "Somebody Might Wave Back" discuss despair and optimism in loneliness. Scott's songwriting has been criticized as being overly introspective, and all four tracks contain some element of self-reflection. Wallinger later chose "The Thrill Is Gone" as his favourite Waterboys track that he did not play on.

"The Big Music" was released as a single, and became a descriptor of the sound of the album, the preceding debut The Waterboys and the following album This Is the Sea. Waterboys chronicler Ian Abrahams described the song as the album's defining track, with New Musical Express' Andrew Collins stating, "What a concept and what an albatross. A lilting anthem with grand cymbal slashes, soulful backing... a lazy, meandering essay." For the Waterboys' gig at London's Town & Country Club in 1985, backing vocals to the song were provided by Sinéad O'Connor, marking her first UK live appearance. Usage of the term "The Big Music" spread to include other bands with a similar sound. The single included "Bury My Heart" and "The Earth Only Endures". "Bury My Heart", a reference to "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee", is described by Anderson as "a lament to the decimated American Red Indians". "The Earth Only Endures" is a traditional Sioux song arranged by Scott.

"Red Army Blues" first appeared on the twelve-inch single for "December" from The Waterboys. The song is a first-person narrative of the life of a young Soviet soldier in World War II who participates in the Battle of Berlin. The soldier, along with many others, is sent to the Gulag by Joseph Stalin. The song is based upon the book The Diary of Vikenty Angorov and borrows main musical theme from Polyushko-polye by Lev Knipper.

The final track of the original release, "A Pagan Place", featuring a trumpet solo from Lorimer, is an ambiguous questioning of the process of Christianising a Pagan culture.

The song "Cathy", included on the album's re-issue, was originally a Nikki Sudden song. Sudden writes about an evening in 1982 when he was staying in Scott's apartment: "Late that night – around midnight – Mike recorded a lead vocal to the backing track for my song, Cathy. We did a quick mix and that was that until twenty years ago [sic] when he includes the number on the reissue of his A Pagan Place album". This 2002 reissue credits Sudden as the song's author.

Critical reception
Peter Anderson, writing in Record Collector, asserts that there was "unanimous critical acclaim". Upon its release, Fife Free Press wrote, "Theirs is music on the grand scale with Mike Scott vocalising his superb word pictures over widescreen arrangements which at times are quite breathtaking in their scope and imagination." The reviewer noted the album "contains no fillers", but highlighted the "striking epic ballad" "Red Army Blues", the "superb single" "The Big Music", the "impassioned" "Rags", with its "soaring guitar riffs", and the "utterly contagious" "Church Not Made with Hands". He recommended the album "unreservedly" and added it was a "certain choice for my top 20 albums of 1984".

Peter Anderson of the Torquay Herald Express called it "quite simply the best album" since U2's Boy and concluded, "If the Waterboys are not the band of 1984 I will eat my Biro." James Belsey of the Bristol Evening Post praised it as a "big, rich album full of powerful sounds, vocal and instrumental, and attractive songs" and added, "Terrific self-confidence... they sound as if they were already a megogroup." Alan McQuillan of the Western Daily Press considered it a "strong, determined album, a sort of Sixties Scots-born Springsteen, if that is possible, with lots of soaring sax and piano over simple guitar, bass and drums".

Eurotipsheet commented on the "inspired and almost possessed music and lyrics which will please the Dylan, Patti Smith and New York Dolls' fans". They picked "The Big Music" and "Somebody Might Wave Back" as the "strongest" tracks. In Canada, Kevin C. Wynne of RPM called it "nothing short of outstanding" and "perhaps destined to be the finest record of 1984". He noted Scott as the "focal point" and the "intelligent use of brass and pseudo-orchestral effects", which creates "a sense of majesty, of quests unfulfilled; that peculiar and pleasant sensation of longing and optimism which the truly great stuff induces".

Track listing
All tracks written by Mike Scott, except "Cathy" on the reissued version of the album.

 * 1) "Church Not Made with Hands" – 6:05
 * 2) "All The Things She Gave Me" – 4:34
 * 3) "The Thrill Is Gone" – 4:33
 * 4) "Rags" – 5:21
 * 5) "Somebody Might Wave Back" – 2:43
 * 6) "The Big Music" – 4:45
 * 7) "Red Army Blues" – 8:06
 * 8) "A Pagan Place" – 5:13

Reissue track listing

 * 1) "Church Not Made with Hands" – 6:02
 * 2) "All the Things She Gave Me" (Unedited) – 5:32
 * 3) "The Thrill Is Gone" (Unedited) – 5:30
 * 4) "Rags" – 5:20
 * 5) "Some of My Best Friends Are Trains" – 6:01
 * 6) "Somebody Might Wave Back" – 2:43
 * 7) "The Big Music" – 4:46
 * 8) "Red Army Blues" – 8:03
 * 9) "A Pagan Place" – 5:14
 * 10) "The Late Train to Heaven" (Rockfield Mix) – 3:30
 * 11) "Love That Kills" (Instrumental) – 6:20
 * 12) "The Madness Is Here Again" – 3:59
 * 13) "Cathy" (Nikki Sudden) – 2:35
 * 14) "Down Through the Dark Streets" – 9:03

Personnel
Notes:
 * Mike Scott – vocals, guitar, Danelectro Bellzouki electric 12-string guitar, piano, bass
 * Anthony Thistlethwaite – saxophone, bass, mandolin
 * Kevin Wilkinson – drums
 * Karl Wallinger – piano, organ, percussion, backing vocals
 * Roddy Lorimer – trumpet
 * Tim Blanthorn – violin
 * Barbara Snow
 * Eddi Reader
 * T.V. Smith
 * Ingrid Schroeder
 * Nick Linden
 * Technical
 * Stephen W Tayler – mixing on tracks 2,4,6,7,9
 * Jim Preen, John Brand, Richard Digby Smith, Stephen W Tayler, Ted Sharp - engineer
 * Sheila Rock - photography

 * Credits taken from the back cover of the original release.
 * A bellzouki is a type of electric 12-string guitar made by Danelectro.
 * Barbara Snow plays trumpet on 'All The Things She Gave Me'.
 * Eddi Reader, T.V. Smith and Ingrid Schroeder sing backing vocals on various tracks.
 * On the original release, Nick Linden played bass on 'All The Things She Gave Me'. He plays on several other tracks on the extended reissue.

title: A Pagan Place


text:
Sims-class destroyer

The Sims-class destroyers were built for the United States Navy, and commissioned in 1939 and 1940. These twelve ships were the last United States destroyer class completed prior to the American entry into World War II. All Sims-class ships saw action in World War II, and seven survived the war. No ship of this class saw service after 1946. They were built under the Second London Naval Treaty, in which the limit on destroyer standard displacement was lifted, but an overall limit remained. Thus, to maximize the number of destroyers and avoid developing an all-new design, the Sims class were only 70 tons larger as designed than previous destroyers. They are usually grouped with the 1500-ton classes and were the sixth destroyer class since production resumed with the Farragut class in 1932.

The class served extensively in World War II, and five of the class were lost in the war. Of the five ships lost, four were at the hands of the Japanese and one at the hands of the Germans. The class served on Neutrality Patrols in the Atlantic in 1940-41. Except for Roe, Wainwright, and Buck, the class was transferred to the Pacific shortly after the attack on Pearl Harbor. All of the ships saw extensive combat service. At the war's end in August 1945, three of the seven survivors were undergoing overhauls that were left unfinished, and were ultimately scrapped. The remaining four seaworthy ships were used as targets during the 1946 Operation Crossroads atomic tests at Bikini Atoll. One was sunk by the first blast, while the other three were sunk as targets two years later after serving as experimental platforms.

Design
Compared with the Benham-class destroyers, the Sims class were increased 8 ft in hull length, and started a trend of increased size that led to the numerous larger 2100-ton destroyer classes that marked wartime construction. The class was designed by Gibbs & Cox. They incorporated streamlining of the bridge structure and the forward part of the hull, in an attempt to increase speed and improve fuel economy. They also had an additional 5-inch gun, with the torpedo tubes re-arranged so one less quadruple mount could be used while maintaining an eight-tube broadside.

When USS Anderson (DD-411), first of the class to be delivered in early 1939, was found to be 150 tons overweight and dangerously top-heavy due to insufficient metacentric height, it touched off a redesign and rebuilding of the class. One 5 in gun (No. 3) and one quad torpedo tube mount were removed, with another torpedo tube mount relocated to the centerline. It was determined that an underestimate by the Bureau of Engineering of the weight of a new machinery design was responsible, and that the Bureau of Construction and Repair did not have sufficient authority to detect or correct the error during the design process. Acting Secretary of the Navy Charles Edison proposed consolidation of the design divisions of the two bureaus. When the bureau chiefs could not agree on how to do this, he replaced both chiefs in September 1939. The consolidation into the new Bureau of Ships was finally effected by a law passed by Congress on 20 June 1940.

Engineering
The Sims class nearly duplicated the advanced machinery of the preceding Benham class, they were the last built with the boiler rooms adjacent forward and the engine rooms adjacent aft and therefore the last one-stack US destroyers. Steam pressure was 600 psi (one reference says 565 psi), superheated to 715 °F. Features that improved fuel economy included boiler economizers, double reduction gearing, and cruising turbines. The main turbines developed 51,138 shp on Sims' trials and were manufactured by Westinghouse.

Armament

The Sims class introduced the advanced Mark 37 Gun Fire Control System. With a turret-mounted gun director as in previous systems, the Mark 37 system incorporated the Ford Mark 1 Fire Control Computer mounted in a plotting room deep in the hull, which enabled automatic aiming of guns against surface or air targets with firing solutions in near real-time. The system would evolve and be used extensively to control most 5-inch guns on destroyers and larger ships, and remained in service on US ships until the 1970s.

The class was completed with five 5-inch dual purpose guns (anti-surface and anti-aircraft (AA)); the two forward mounts and the aftermost mount were enclosed. The class proved to be top-heavy, and a quadruple torpedo mount and one 5-inch gun (No. 3) were removed by 1941. Early units were completed with 12 torpedo tubes in three quad mounts, one mounted centerline, the others port and starboard, while later ships were completed (and all eventually modified) with eight in two quad mounts, all on the centerline. The Mark 15 torpedo was equipped. The 5 inch guns were removed some time after the torpedo tubes were removed in most cases.

The as-built light AA armament of four .50 caliber machine guns (12.7 mm), the same as previous 1500-ton classes, was inadequate. This was partially remedied by increasing the number of guns to eight by 1941. As with most US Navy warships, the light AA armament was replaced with 40 mm Bofors and 20 mm Oerlikon guns within 18 months after the attack on Pearl Harbor. Initially, this was four 40 mm in two twin mounts and four single 20 mm guns. In 1945, with the emerging kamikaze threat and the dwindling threat from Japanese surface ships, Mustin, Morris, and Russell had all torpedo tubes removed in favor of four additional 40 mm guns for a total of eight in four twin mounts and were authorized replacement of the 20 mm single mounts by twin mounts; the latter part was not completed.

The as-built anti-submarine armament of two depth charge racks was augmented by up to six K-gun depth charge throwers during the war.

Service
The class served extensively in World War II, and five of the class were lost in the war. Of the five ships lost, four were at the hands of the Japanese and one at the hands of the Germans. The class served on Neutrality Patrols in the North Atlantic, Caribbean, and South Atlantic in 1940–41. Except for Roe, Wainwright, and Buck, the class was transferred to the Pacific shortly after the attack on Pearl Harbor, where they often screened aircraft carriers. Two were sunk as a direct result of this duty by the same torpedo spreads that killed their carriers; Hammann escorting USS Yorktown (CV-5) in the Battle of Midway and O'Brien escorting USS Wasp (CV-7) on 15 September 1942 (O'Brien did not sink until 19 October).

Walke became the only ship of the class to be sunk in action against enemy surface warships when she attempted to attack Japanese warships at the naval battle of Guadalcanal, 15th of November 1942, but was ambushed by Japanese destroyers. She was hit once from a six torpedo spread, fired from the Japanese destroyer Ayanami, that blew off her bow as she promptly went down and sank.

In the Atlantic, Wainwright escorted the ill-fated convoy PQ 17, and with Roe supported Operation Torch, the invasion of North Africa. Buck, damaged in a collision, missed Torch but was sunk by a U-boat off Salerno, Italy in 1943. The remainder of the class saw hard service in the Pacific. At the war's end in August 1945, three of the seven survivors were undergoing overhauls that were left unfinished, and were ultimately scrapped. The remaining four seaworthy ships were used as targets during the 1946 Operation Crossroads atomic tests at Bikini Atoll. One was sunk by the first blast, while the other three were sunk as targets two years later after serving as experimental platforms.

title: Sims-class destroyer


text:
Talk:Elimination communication

Neutrality discussion
This article roughly conforms to what I believe, but it's woefully inadequate from the NPOV point of view. I think this article needs a touch from the conventional, opposing side, so that wiki-consensus can be reached.

Right now I'm not willing to touch the article because I'm not an expert, and the foundations of the article are so bad I can't debate them. User:Decoy

The definition sounds somewhat right, but what seems to be in dispute is not the definition but the principle, and that is not for discussion here but on blogs out there.

I am a father of a 1 year old, and we have been doing EC from 18 weeks. The idea of having to clean feces of my baby is archaic.

I removed the NPOV marker because the article is entirely descriptive; there are no statements purporting that EC is a superior method of nurturing, or that conventional diapering is inferior. The fact that EC may make some people squeamish doesn't mean that there is an "opposing side" in any rational sense. I am not aware of any research indicating that EC might be an unhealthy or inappropriate practice. (EC is not potty training and should not be confused with early potty training methods that have been scientifically discredited.)

The widely respected pediatrician Dr. T. Berry Brazelton, who has been an opponent of potty training "too early" now supports the practice of EC by caregivers who have the time and proximity EC requires.

Brazelton does point out that EC would be difficult if not impossible for many parents to practice because of modern social structures such as families in which both parents work outside the home. It wouldn't hurt to include such information in this article, but it isn't necessary to the article's neutrality any more than an article on skydiving should include reasons not to skydive. Some people just don't want to "go there," and thankfully they don't have to.

As far as the "bad foundations" of the article, this writer would appreciate specific, constructive criticism so that references can be included where readers feel it would help. The cited books by Bauer and Boucke are both well researched and include many scientific references. User:KnowWell, 07:28, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

---

Brazelton's argument about EC'ing being difficult in modern times is flawed because EC is not dependent on mothers doing it with their babies. EC is not like breastfeeding. Anyone can EC a baby. I know many families where both parents work and the caregivers (be it a grandparent or daycare provider) EC the baby during the day.

I've just added some benefits and criticisms to this page. I hope that this makes it neutral, so I'm going to attempt to remove the POV tag. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amberkhatch (talk • contribs) 22:24, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

It makes sense to mention Brazelton's potential conflict of interest, but on the other hand, the proponents of this technique are making money by selling books, so they're hardly neutral either. Questioning the neutrality of only one side of the debate thus comes off to me as a little, well, one-sided and non-neutral. Halfspin (talk) 07:10, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Diapers?
what about a 'using diapers as backup' section? Many ECers do this, I feel it should be included. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

NPOV
The talk page is not an appropriate place for discussion of article content - there are plenty of parenting forums for that. Likewise, the page seems entirely based on books that defined "elimination communication", when in fact the only appropriate sources are neutral to the subject: newspaper and magazine articles, other books, etc. I know nothing about the subject (and am not even a parent) and came to this page to learn about it, and found an article that reads like a promotional pamphlet. Someone who knows more about the topic, please step in and help clean do some elimination on this article! (Sorry for the pun.) --Eeblet (talk) 03:57, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

 * "The talk page is not an appropriate place for discussion of article content." This is precisely the role the talk page is supposed to take on so that the debates don't spill over into the article.

 * "[T]he only appropriate sources are neutral to the subject." There is no such thing a neutral article and I wish that people would stop using the term. It has been largely discredited as a realistic stance in the literature on the organization of information (read: libraries).  Articles merely need to be either balanced or fair, and not even that if the debate over an issue is being described or a political stance.G8briel (talk) 16:04, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Support and Opposition sections needed
Even though the article doesn't explicitly recommend the practice, it does in an implicit sense. Reading the article begs the question, "so why doesn't everyone do this?" and that question is not answered. I've just heard about this today on Yahoo news, and although they don't go into detail, it is described there as controversial. That tells me that there are parents and likely some experts who disagree with the practice and I think this needs to be addressed.

But, as the article currently is neutered of any POV, I think the POV of those who practice/are in favor of it should also be represented. Rather than present an idea with no viewpoints at all, I think the concept of NPOV is to cover the major viewpoints on a subject. It's not always helpful to describe some concept without any context of how people feel about it, just in the name of creating a neutral article. Conical Johnson (talk) 21:24, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

--

To be honest, I think that the answer to the question "why doesn't everyone do this?" is that diaper companies have HUGE marketing budgets, and EC proponents don't. Many people haven't even heard of it. Plus, many of the proponents of EC call it "diaper free!" which makes it sound like you have to forego diapers to do it, which is VERY untrue, but makes it sound totally overwhelming and difficult. Many of us "ec'ers" use diapers full time, but give our kid potty-breaks throughout the day at likely times--right after waking, 5-10 min after eating, at each diaper change, whenever baby is fussy for "no reason", or any time we have to go. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carlyle123 (talk • contribs) 19:59, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Tagged for POV and Sources
I tagged this article because of POV and reliable source problems. The article is sourced almost exclusively to self-published sources like diaperfreebaby.org. The large external link section is questionable by WP:EL. It gives undue weight to a fringe topic, and does not present opposing views. In particular, the "components" section is totally unsourced. As a start, here is a good source to present and discuss in the article. Comments? Skinwalker (talk) 23:08, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, something about this article almost sounds like an advertisement (obviously not an advertisement for a product) more than a factual presentation.174.65.168.248 (talk) 08:11, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Additional Sources
As a very satisfied practitioner of EC with my toddler, I often refer other interested parents to this page as an introduction to the topic because I would prefer that they get a more neutral opinion to start. However, there is some significant information missing here. I found Christine Gross-Loh's book, The Diaper-Free Baby, to be a good source of information and less pushy than some of the other websites/books. I am not really new to reading Wikipedia, but I am new to editing. I am happy to take a pass at rewriting this article, but one thing that I don't understand is what is the protocol for making a major change to the article. Can I do this? Or is there an "owner" of the article?

LilithLeFay (talk) 18:26, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Anyone can do this. 174.65.168.248 (talk) 08:11, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Infant_potty_training_method redirects here now
Redirected "Infant_potty_training_method" to this page as it appears largely coterminous and is probably only a separate page for marketing reasons. Please access that page, check up on my reasoning and plunder the article there for any useful titbits. Pbhj (talk) 22:37, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Edit warring over sources
I've removed every single reference to the Olson book and replaced them with cn. Wikipedia is not a battleground for authorship disputes - if someone is interested in improving the article I'm sure other sources can be found. § FreeRangeFrog croak 20:54, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Elimination communication. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140104053021/http://ecsimplified.com/elimination-communication-101/ to http://ecsimplified.com/elimination-communication-101/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140104053021/http://ecsimplified.com/elimination-communication-101/ to http://ecsimplified.com/elimination-communication-101/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 22:22, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:Elimination communication


text:
Wikipedia talk:Selected anniversaries/August 16

I changed the article text about the Second Bank of the United States to say re-establishment. This is consistent with the article. --Timc 21:04, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

How could this page possibly be allowed to appear without a reference to the fact that it is the anniversary of the disappearance or death of Elvis Presley? Is Joseph Kittinger really more important than that? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.9.52.174 (talk • contribs) 13:25, 16 August 2006 (UTC).
 * Is Presley or Kittinger important ? Everyone has their favourites.... We don't do anniversaries of simple deaths. The death must be significant, as in the end of a dynasty, an assasination, etc. to be featured. Furthermore, the Elvis Presley page now carries {cleanup} and {POV} tags, making it ineligible to get featured on MainPage. And IMO, July 5 is a better date to feature Elvis's article on MainPage. --PFHLai 17:31, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Saint Roch
This should be removed. Every day of the year is one saint day or another; it has not been our practice to mark the other saint days, and this is not an especially prominent one. The only reason this was requested is that someone was apparently impressed that Roch is the patron saint of dogs—but this does not even seem to be a major aspect (except in Bolivia, apparently) of Roch's veneration.--Pharos 20:00, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Good points. I guess you can not recognize every saint's day.  As I mentioned before, what I was impressed with is that his day is in the dog days of summer.  It also seems to be celebrated in Bolivia, as you mentioned, as "The Birthday of All Dogs". Steve Dufour 03:26, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Yes, I agree it's sort-of-interesting that it occurs in August, but we have no evidence at all that it's actually connected with the Dog Days. And even if it were, I don't see how that would particularly make it more notable than the other saint days.--Pharos 05:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest that relative notability be weighted above absolute notability. If this template would become overcrowded, then you would be more than justified to limit it down to the most notable things associated with this day. However, it currently looks like Saint Roch doesn't have much competition. Savidan 16:42, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Please see August_16. There are a dozen of these saint days on August 16 alone (the most interesting event on this day is probably the Palio di Siena, actually).--Pharos 19:21, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Cyprus
According to Cyprus page, Cyprus achieved independence on August 16, not October 1. Tripledot 08:04, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * True, but they seem to celebrate Independence Day, the holiday itself, on 1 October.     Please provide references that show differently. Thanks. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 14:52, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Woodentop (The Bill)
Is it possible to get Woodentop (The Bill) mentioned on the main page on this date? This is the pilot episode for long running police procedural series The Bill and it was broadcast on this day 27 years ago. Is it possible for it to be mentioned? --5 albert square (talk) 23:02, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Currently that article will not qualify with Primarysources, one of the 'orange'-level article issue tags, on it. Zzyzx11 (talk) 04:03, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * OK I've managed to reference the article a little more and have now removed the tag for it. Can it be included now?  --5 albert square (talk) 12:56, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The Bill is already included on October 16, so Woodentop is not going to get a separate listing. — howcheng  {chat} 09:07, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

2012 notes
— howcheng  {chat} 09:15, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Rescued from Ineligible (unused): Ringo Starr (Abbey Road was featured on August 8)
 * Omitted: Siege of Detroit; Dominican Restoration War; Basilica of San Sebastian, Manila; 1929 Palestine riots; Joseph Kittinger
 * Included: Battle of Bennington (7th appearance, last in 2010); Klondike Gold Rush (6th appearance, last in 2010); Battle of Elands River (1900) (first appearance); Northwest Airlines Flight 255 (3rd appearance, last in 2008); Yang Yong-eun (first appearance)

2013 notes
— howcheng  {chat} 06:56, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Omitted: Battle of Bennington; Basilica of San Sebastian, Manila; Klondike Gold Rush; Battle of Elands River (1900); Northwest Airlines Flight 255 (ineligible—maintenance); Yang Yong-eun
 * Included: Peterloo Massacre (6th appearance, last in 2010); Dominican Restoration War (2nd appearance, last in 2011; 150th anniversary); 1929 Palestine riots (3rd appearance, last in 2011); Joseph Kittinger (6th appearance, last in 2011); Elvis Presley (8th appearance, last in 2010)

Edit request on 15 August 2013
In the first Selected anniversaries item, "1819 – Fifteen people were killed and 400–700 others were injured after cavalry charged into a crowd . . . ", "after" needs to be changed to "when", as in the article. The victims were killed and injured by the charge, whereas when you say "after", it sounds as if it was something subsequent to the charge that killed them. (Whoever did this is far from being alone. This illogical use of "after" is fast becoming a plague).

Awien (talk) 11:52, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * ✅. — howcheng  {chat} 16:25, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

2014 notes
— howcheng  {chat} 10:03, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
 * New articles (unused): Battle of Radzymin (1920)
 * Omitted: Peterloo Massacre; Dominican Restoration War; 1929 Palestine riots; Joseph Kittinger; Elvis Presley
 * Included: Battle of Guinegate (1513) (first appearance); Battle of Bennington (8th appearance, last in 2012); 1906 Valparaíso earthquake (first appearance); Direct Action Day (first appearance); Ringo Starr (4th appearance, last in 2006)

2015 notes
— howcheng  {chat} 17:18, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Omitted: Battle of the Spurs; Battle of Bennington; 1906 Valparaíso earthquake; Direct Action Day; Ringo Starr
 * Included: Peterloo Massacre (7th appearance, last in 2013); Dominican Restoration War (3rd appearance, last in 2013); Dole Air Race (first appearance); Joseph Kittinger (7th appearance, last in 2013); Yang Yong-eun (2nd appearance, last in 2012)

2016 notes
— howcheng  {chat} 06:40, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Omitted: Dominican Restoration War; Dole Air Race; Joseph Kittinger (ineligible—maintenance); Yang Yong-eun (ineligible—maintenance)
 * Included: Battle of the Spurs (2nd appearance, last in 2014); San Sebastian Church (Manila) (3rd appearance, last in 2012); Direct Action Day (2nd appearance, last in 2014; 70th anniversary); Elvis Presley (9th appearance, last in 2013)
 * Repeats: Peterloo Massacre (2nd consecutive appearance, 8 total)

2017 notes

 * Moved to Ineligible: Dole Air Race (maintenance)
 * Omitted: Battle of the Spurs; Peterloo Massacre; San Sebastian Church (Manila); Direct Action Day
 * Included: Dominican Restoration War (4th appearance, last in 2015); Klondike Gold Rush (7th appearance, last in 2012); Northwest Airlines Flight 255 (4th appearance, last in 2012; 30th anniversary); 2015 Attock bombing/Shuja Khanzada (both: first appearance); Marianos Argyros (first appearance); Ranavalona I (first appearance); Georgette Heyer (first appearance)
 * Repeats: Elvis Presley (2nd conseutive appearance; 10 total)

2018 notes
— howcheng  {chat} 15:55, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Omitted: Dominican Restoration War; Klondike Gold Rush; Elvis Presley; Northwest Airlines Flight 255; Marianos Argyros; Ranavalona I (ineligible—maintenance); Georgette Heyer
 * Included: Battle of the Spurs (3rd appearance, last in 2016); Siege of Detroit (2nd appearance, last in 2011); 1906 Valparaíso earthquake (2nd appearance, last in 2014); Pete Best/Ringo Starr (Best: first appearance; Starr: 5th appearance, last in 2014); John II of Trebizond (first appearance); Ramakrishna (first appearance); Angela Bassett (first appearance)
 * Repeats: 2015 Attock bombing/Shuja Khanzada (2nd consecutive appearance, 2 total)

2019 notes
— howcheng  {chat} 15:58, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
 * New articles (unused): Mal Waldron; Saif Ali Khan; Tara Teng
 * Omitted: Battle of the Spurs; Siege of Detroit; Pete Best/Ringo Starr; 2015 Attock bombing/Shuja Khanzada; John II of Trebizond; Ramakrishna; Angela Bassett
 * Included: Battle of Bennington (9th appearance, last in 2014); Peterloo Massacre (9th appearance, last in 2016; 200th anniversary); San Sebastian Church (Manila) (4th appearance, last in 2016); Usain Bolt (first appearance; 10th anniversary); Marianos Argyros (2nd appearance, last in 2017); George Meany (first appearance; 125th birthday); Georgette Heyer (2nd appearance, last in 2017)
 * Repeats: 1906 Valparaíso earthquake (2nd consecutive appearance, 3 total)

2020 notes
— howcheng  {chat} 03:37, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Moved to Ineligible: Siege of Detroit (maintenance); Northwest Airlines Flight 255 (maintenance)
 * New articles (unused): Madonna; Abu Nidal
 * Omitted: Battle of Bennington; Peterloo Massacre; San Sebastian Church (Manila); 1906 Valparaíso earthquake; Usain Bolt; Marianos Argyros; George Meany; Georgette Heyer
 * Included: Battle of the Spurs (4th appearance, last in 2018); Klondike Gold Rush (8th appearance, last in 2017); Battle of Radzymin (1920) (first appearance; 100th anniversary); Direct Action Day (3rd appearance, last in 2016); Elvis Presley (11th appearance, last in 2017); Ranavalona I (2nd appearance, last in 2017); Robert Bunsen (first appearance); Saif Ali Khan (first appearance; 50th birthday)

2021 notes
— howcheng  {chat} 07:50, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * New articles (ineligible): Treaty of Speyer (1570) (maintenance)
 * New articles (unused): Jozef Tiso's speech in Holič
 * Omitted: Battle of the Spurs; Battle of Radzymin (1920); Elvis Presley; Ranavalona I; Robert Bunsen; Saif Ali Khan
 * Included: Dominican Restoration War (5th appearance, last in 2017); 1906 Valparaíso earthquake (4th appearance, last in 2019); 2015 Attock bombing/Shuja Khanzada (both: 3rd appearance, last in 2018); Theodore II Laskaris (first appearance); Elsie Inglis (first appearance); Tara Teng (first appearance)
 * Repeats: Klondike Gold Rush (2nd consecutive appearance, 9 total; 125th anniversary); Direct Action Day (2nd consecutive appearance, 4 total; 75th anniversary)

2022 notes
— howcheng  {chat} 16:11, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Omitted: Dominican Restoration War; Klondike Gold Rush; 1906 Valparaíso earthquake; Direct Action Day; 2015 Attock bombing/Shuja Khanzada; Theodore II Laskaris; Elsie Inglis; Tara Teng
 * Included: Peterloo Massacre (10th appearance, last in 2019); Jozef Tiso's speech in Holič (first appearance; 80th anniversary); Stanley Internment Camp (first appearance); Pete Best/Ringo Starr (Best: 2nd appearance; Starr: 6th; both last in 2018); Typhoon Wayne (1986) (first appearance); Ranavalona I (3rd appearance, last in 2020); Georgette Heyer (3rd appearance, last in 2019); Marian Rejewski (first appearance)

2023 rationale
 Heart  (talk) 03:43, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Unbolded Pete Best
 * Originally went with Elvis Presley, but avoided him due to the too long tag?