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User talk:Gilgamesh~enwiki/Archive 2

Request for assistance in a conflict between users regarding Canaanite and Hebrew linguistics articles
I've moved the request/discussion from Requests for mediation to Talk:Hebrew language and the issue has been listed at Requests for comment, because according to Dispute resolution, this should be done before mediation is attempted, and I do think that involving more people in the discussion will help move the issue forward.

Thanks, BCorr | Брайен, Co-chair of the Mediation Committee 12:52, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Thank you. And I apologize for the procedural mistake; this is my first time and I didn't know quite what to do. - Gilgamesh 17:16, 7 July 2004 (UTC)

 * There's no need to apologize, and thank you. I very much appreciate the fact that you are working to resolve the dispute amicably. BCorr | Брайен 21:46, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * To be truthful, I didn't really have much hope that IZAK would soften his hard line. And the dispute only died down because so many other people disagreed with IZAK's science and methods.  But I hoped that something positive might come out of resquesting assistance, and maybe better to get IZAK to co-request with me.  Oh, and I didn't "threaten" IZAK as he said; I made a simple level-headed observation that people who abuse a system too much will often find it unavailable to them sometime in the future. - Gilgamesh 00:04, 8 July 2004 (UTC)

Apostrophe
Hi there. I'm asking both you and Fanger to share what you know about apostrophes in possessives ending in an s, specifically the possessive of Jesus, if it is indeed different. I was taught this both ways in school and have wondered what the truth was for years. I'm making a section on my talk page, if you want to discuss it there. Jdavidb 14:33, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Hebrew linguistics
Gilgamesh, sorry for moaning again, but I find all those pronunciation guidelines in Hebrew very confusing and visually disturbing, e.g. your recent additions to Zephaniah. Are you sure there are no other ways of integrating this into Wikipedia? JFW | T@lk  21:13, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Well perhaps...I don't know. I think they're all valid, as the Jewish diaspora had so many different liturgical dialects for centuries.  As such, they really aren't different pronunciations or different spellings, but the same name in different forms of Hebrew that have been mutually separated since antiquity.  After reading lots of material about how Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews feel that their distinctions are being ignored by Ashkenazi and Israeli Hebrew bias, and how much they value their liturgical dialects, I thought it would be worth including as many as I know.  I mean, there are a couple million Jews to each of these major subdivisions.  If there were a better way to integrate them into each article (say, with a side bar), and someone could show me how, then I'd do that instead. - Gilgamesh 21:20, 7 July 2004 (UTC)

There are too many dialects. I personally use the Dutch/German-Jewish dialect for liturgical purposes, which uses "[au]" for the cholem instead of the "[oi]" as favoured by Eastern-European Jews. Also, I pronounce the ayin as "[ng]", a custom introduced by Portugese Jews but taken over by the Dutch Ashkenazim. My point is that you can't aim at giving the name in all dialects. It would be beautiful to see Moses transcribed as "[Moushei]", the way I would pronounce his name, but this is hardly useful in its context. I suggest you take this to some page on Hebrew dialects, but please do not add this stuff to every page with a Hebrew word! :-~ JFW | T@lk  21:38, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Understood...I suppose the lists would get monstrously large. ^^; But I think Tiberian, as an old uniting standard, should be on each page nevertheless. Fair? - Gilgamesh 21:44, 7 July 2004 (UTC)

 * I'm afraid I'm another one of those who thinks the pronounciation guidelines you have been adding are clunky and disturbing to the eye. They are also way over my head (as a native speaker of Hebrew, mind you) and for the most part archaic. The distinction between different dialects of Hebrew may have historical and liturgical significance, but for wikipedia purposes, it seems to me it is most useful to include only the most common pronounciations that people would be likely to encounter and search for. Sometimes that would be more than one pronounciation or spelling ("MAzel Tov" and "MaZAL Tov"), but very seldom are there more than two pronounciations of a Hebrew word still in use outside of prayer.
 * And I'm curious about your comment that: Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews feel that their distinctions are being ignored by Ashkenazi and Israeli Hebrew bias given that the current pronounciation of modern Israeli Hebrew leans much more towards Sepharadi than Ashkenazi. Would you care to elaborate? --Woggly 09:16, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Sorry, maybe my fault. :P I've been reading a lot of Loolwa. Anyway, as for commonness, I had a discussion with Mustafaa, and I think maybe it would be good to provide only two forms:  Tiberian Hebrew (historic and the origin of the majority of liturgical dialects, and is very phonemically rich) and Modern Hebrew (standard language).  Originally I was providing only the two, but I guess over time I became too obsessed with more and more detail, and got carried away. - Gilgamesh 9:30, 8 July 2004 (UTC)

 * Your response is very gracious. I've been reading a bit at the links you provided for Loolwa; while she makes several very valid points, most of them seem to be her own points - I can't think of a group for which she clearly speaks. Don't make the mistake of assuming that, just because she writes well and sensibly, her opinions are representative of commonly held opinions, even within the minorities on behalf of whom she writes. --Woggly 10:03, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * You appear to be going through articles and standardizing Hebrew (and Arabic) transliterations. This seems to me to be somewhat like trying to standardize all articles into either American spelling or US spelling without discussion. I have no objections to there being transliteration standards in Wikipedia, for Semitic words and names, for Sanskrit and Hindu words and names and so forth if consensus can be reached. If consensus cannot be reached, as with spelling differences and terminology differences, the differences should and must be tolerated.

 * Currently your actions are forcing the issue. Such an action is very reasonable way to force any issue: be bold, and if no-one objects then all is fine.

 * But I do object.

 * You are representing the pharangealized consonants by non-standard forms. They are almost universally represented by h, s, and t with underdot. I realize that on many (probably most) current systems and configurations the proper Unicode representation will not appear, whether the underdot is applied using precomposed characters or by the ASCII letters followed by a non-spacing underdot. (I expect the latter might be more successfull.)

 * However those interested can do some work to configure their systems and fonts to show such characters. Those uninterested can leave well-enough alone, content to see a blank box or other brower symbol or hex code for an otherwise unrepresentable character. And using a proper Unicoding encoding means that there will be no need for another change when font handling and browser capability improves to the point where the standard transliteration symbols are available.

 * Another question is whether one should bother to distinguish strong and weak prounciation of the bgdkpt letters, and if so how, whether they should be marked by a following h or by underscore. The standard in scholarly books is not to indicate weak pronunciation, probably because such indicatation is redundant as anyone who cares will know that if one of the bgdkpt letters follows a vowel and is not doubled then it is weakened. Accordingly indicating the weakening in transliteration is not the norm.

 * Yet another question is whether shewa's (and furtive pathah?) should be shown be suprscript letters or by a normal-sized letter with a breve. It is my impresion that superscript letters are far more common in scholarly texts than the breve convention. Also, should the simple vocal schwa be indicated by e or by ə?

 * Should alef and `ayin be indicated respectively by right and left single quotation marks or by the more scholarly and more unambiguous U+02BE and U+02BF (which is I think the right answer)? Currently however I use quote marks instead because they "good enough" and do properly display on 99.9% of current displays. Except they don't display properly in Arial at a normal resolution, they turn into straight quotation marks. :(

 * Again, I have no problem with you forcing this issue as you have. Transliteration conventions should have been brought up long before now and some kind of consensus reached and stated in the style guide ... even if that is a consensus not to force any standard. At the moment everything is in limbo. I suggest a discussion on the style sheet talk page or on a page linked to the style sheet talk page and a notice that such discussion is beginning placed on the Village Pump.

 * I might be persuaded to your transliteration, even though not standard anywhere else (so far as I know). But placing non-standard transliteration on article after article does need some discussion and consensus.

 * Jallan 15:18, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I've had long talks on these issues with Mustafaa, a Canaanite languages buff. We both agreed that proper academic standard (both in Ancient Hebrew and Standard Hebrew) supercede common social norms for the sake of academic work.  Social norms are worthy of mention, however.  As for the Hebrew linguistics, they are relevant to a wide range of religious and linguistic studies, not purely for Jewish or Israeli issues.  The simple fact of the matter is, Tiberian Hebrew is the oldest variety of Hebrew to have its pronunciation standardized (8th century C.E.), and most liturgical dialects (including Sephardic and Ashkenazic) were based on it.  The bh/gh/dh/kh/ph/th spellings are an intentional substitute for the underscored spellings not previously practical.  The reason both Mustafaa and I use alternative lettering is that they are available in the vast majority of web fonts, and most of the characters are in the widely-displayed 0x20-0x17F Unicode character range.

 * As for the modern form, Standard Hebrew is intentionally conservative in its transliteration, as shown by the official names of most Israeli cities.

 * As for Wikipedia using a tiny Arial typeface, that issue is still under dispute; some people don't like it precisely for the reason that it makes some characters so small as to not be distinguishable. But it is the typeface that is at fault, not the article's content.  (Ask Wikipedia to fix the typeface.  Don't "fix" the articles instead.)  Maybe someday when it becomes more practical, we can migrate all the alternative letters to the most academic ones, including underscores, dot-belows, etc.  We could even do that today or tomorrow if everyone thinks it's the best thing to do.  (I've noticed that Windows XP's updated Tahoma typeface now supports all special Hebrew and Arabic transliteration letters except for the special aleph/ayin half-circles.)

 * As for issues of Ashkenazi discrimination against Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews, once again read up at Loolwa Khazzoom's website, The Jewish MultiCultural Project, and Jews Indigenous to the Middle East and North Africa. Loolwa in particular has written many published articles and essays on her experiences of discrimination and cultural marginalization in Ashkenazi-dominated Jewish communities.

 * - Gilgamesh 23:31, 12 July 2004 (UTC)

 * I think you have misunderstood my objections. I agree with you fully and absolutely on the need for scholarly transliterations of Semitic languages and other languages in Wikipedia. I also am aware of Ashkenazi discrimation against other dialects of Hebrew.

 * I follow standard Tiberian pointing myself for transliteration (when not sometimes transliterating the consonants only).

 * What I am objecting to is non-standard transliteration appearing throughout Wikipedia without discussion. Is the system you are using here for pharygneals ever been used by anyone else on the web or in any published material? A newly invented transliteration system does not become acceptable because two people have decided to use it. That comes close to being "original research". Similarly Wikipedia should not be the place to introduce novel terminology or a novel classification sytem.

 * Underscored spellings are quite practical, e.g. Ne g e b rather than Neghebh. However generally scholars simply spell Negeb which is good enough. That is the standard in academic books. Latin-letter transliterations of Tiberian in Wikipedia should follow standards actually used. In academic writing I've generally only seen marking of softened vowels in transliteration tables or ocassionally when someone is making a particular point about Masoretic pronunciation. Otherwise, the softening is not marked.

 * I would guess that it has become conventional not to mark softening in normal transliteration because context alone makes it clear without the ugliness of h and h and more h and without numerous fussy underline diacritics. Also, the softening was late development and not found in the pronuncation of Biblical Hebrew which is another reason why it might be felt better not to mark it. (Of course vowel sounds of true Biblical Hebrew would have been different also, for example Tiberian mele k  would probably have been pronounced more like 'malk' in Biblical Hebrew.)

 * But what I would like to see is an open discussion by as many as are interested as to whether we should adopt your system or adopt fully the academic system in common use (which I think far preferable) or some mixture of the two. I am willing to abide by consensus if there is consensus among those interested in using your system. But I am not willing to accept a novel and idiosyncratic transliteration system in Wikipeida in place of a standard one being applied without consensus. Why should I or anyone use a system which so far as I know has been previously used by only two other people in the entire world?

 * As you mentioned, difficulties in displaying the standard accepted characters are fast disappearing.

 * On current Macintosh systems, if any requested character is not found in the current font, the system searches through all fonts until the character is found and displays that version of the character. It will not match the characters about it exactly in style, but at least the proper character appears. Accordingly Macintosh users have only to load a single font with a missing character to view the character regardless of their current font settings.

 * Mozilla on Windows and Un*x machines follows this same procedure. So does Netscape under Windows. Other browsers may also do so by now though Internet Explorer does not. It has been a long time since I have played around with numerous browsers and compared their capabilities. I normally use Mozilla.

 * So ... yes ... we can probably now start using the proper characters. I have been doing so at need in various articles where Semitic names and words appeared and have no wish to see my use or anyone's use of the proper Unicode characters for the normal Latin letter transliterations of pharyngeals replaced by non-standard kludge symbols ... unless there is consensus that this should be done. Without consensus it seems to me I could with some reason call any such changes ... replacing a character in standard use in Semitic transcription with one never before so used ... as vandalism, just as though someone who favors simplified spelling were to go through article after article and replace all occurrences of though by tho and through by thru. (In fact I myself would be happy to do such a thing as I favor such simplified spellings ... but Wikipedia style is for good reason by its rules conservative in such matters. I would also like to throw away the Latinized Greek forms used for ancient Greek names and use pure Greek transliteration, that is Kirkê instead of Circe and so on. But I don't. One must bow to convention in a project like this.)

 * If you and Mustafaa without general discussion have a right to insert idiosyncratic non-standard transliterations into Wikipedia and change current and correct transliterations to fit, then I and anyone else else has a similar right to insert standard transliterations and change your idiosyncratic transliterations to fit, indeed, probably far more right. That is why discussion and consensus is needed.

 * The best answer is, I think, to begin using the proper characters and to create a page accessible from the Coummunity Portal (and able to be linked to from any article) which would be called something like Viewing undisplayable characters. The page would contain a short discussion about various browsers (recommending browsers for non-Mac systems that implement automatic substitution of missing characers). It would also have an external link to Unicode fonts for Windows Computers which includes links to many free and inexpensive fonts (also usable on Un*x platforms) which contain a fuller than usual complement of characters or which contain characters needed for particular languages. Any article making much use of characters that are not found in most fonts might also link to that page with a standard note: "If you cannot view all characters in this article properly, please look at  Viewing undisplayable characters.

 * In short, I currently strongly favor using the standard characters over kludges and in guiding people to upgrade their systems to be able to see the standard characters. I also don't want people like you and I who agree that one should use characters outside of the Latin-1 range whenever they are useful not to be able to produce a united front against those who disagree. But if, for example, you use şûr instead of the standard transliteration where it would be coded as &#7779;ûr > ṣûr or as &#803;ûr > ṣûr, it can reasonably be argued (and I do argue) that s.ûr is just as adequate as a kludge and far easier to enter, or cûr or tzûr or tsûr, all of them more standard because found in more places than is your innovative and novel usage. Those other kludges at least are not new ones. They are ones used elsewhere and already familiar to some readers, some of them familiar to many readers. The world and Wikipedia should not be burdened with yet another new kludge method to transliterate Hebrew into Latin characters. If you do support a kludge method, then support one already in use rather than inventing a new one. If there is to be one transliteration convention recommended on Wikipedia for Semitic languages, then consensus is needed as to what that convention should be. Otherwise, I am obviously quite as much at liberty as you are to use any convention I like and to change your material, especially when I prefer the standard that is mostly used.

 * I agree so much with what you are doing in including Tiberian transliterations in articles, as I also have done, but not with attempting to force an idiosyncratic non-standard form of transliteration without discussion. If indeed, the method you are using is one that has become standard among some group on the web or elsewhere, please indicate where it has been used and my objections to it will greatly decrease insofar as it actually is in use outside of Wikipedia.

 * I also, as you do, agree that Wikipedia should cease attempting to force a particular font on users. I and many others said so in a poll on meta-Wiki some time back. It seems this was in vain for the moment. The unnecessary POV of forcing of a particular style continues unabated.

 * Jallan 02:23, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Alright... You are very rational and logical.  You raised points I had not before considered.  Since most of the work is mine, I will fix the Unicode myself.  I've always been able to, so I'll take up the task.  BTW, I did not invent the convention of using breves for certain hateph vowels.  From the academic texts I've seen, schwa is used for syllabic shewa, breved vowels are used for sylabbic hateph vowels, but superscript miniature vowels are used for non-syllabic hateph vowels.  Example of a syllabic hateph: ʾĔḏôm.  Example of a non-syllabic hateph: ʾAharōn. - Gilgamesh 02:36, 13 July 2004 (UTC)

 * Don't get me wrong here... I totally approve of having Tiberian Hebrew transcriptions, but don't much care what transcription is used for Hebrew, as long as it's one-to-one - and as long as I'm not the one who gets to do all te work of converting it! :) But I think Jallan's arguments are good; the more standard the better, all other things being equal. In Arabic articles, I usually consider the Arabic letters sufficient indication, but I probably ought to start using a full transcription system sometime. - Mustafaa 04:40, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I've worked all day and night. Barring perhaps a few oversights, I have converted as many of my Hebrew transliterations as possible to Tiberian and Standard transliterations using the proper Unicode characters. The exceptions in this case are the superscript vowels, for the reason that there seems to be no distinct Unicode character for in-text superscript "e". For these vowels, I used HTML tags: <sup><small>e</small></sup> - Gilgamesh 10:51, 14 July 2004 (UTC)

 * I can support this, with one exception which I will get to much later, as reasonably representing methods in common use. Normally I think either the superscript method is used throughout or the breve method. I generally like the superscript for technical linguistic use as it makes the shewas stand out. But it looks hideous when a proper name begins with alef or `ayin followed by a shewa and the shewa is capitalized. I suppose it is because the breve method is less uncouth throughout that some prefer it. Mixing the two as you are doing makes visual sense. though I doubt that in fact a vocal shewa following an alef or `ayin is any less syllabic or more syllabic than a normal shewa following a resh or beth and I don't recall ever seeing them mixed. (But normally one reads for meaning and gets used to somewhat different methods and tends to be blind to the actual method being used). Still, Ă as the capital of a is visually so superior at the beginning of a name I cannot do anything but commend it. But I know I've never encountered a distinction between syllabic and non-syllabic hatef-shewas in any Hebrew grammar. All shewas are non-syllabic in Masoretic understanding, unless you wish to reckon the normal consonant-followed-by-vocal-shewa as a syllable.

 * As to superscript letters: there is U+1E43 MODIFIER LETTER SMALL A, U+1D4A MODIFIER LETTER SMALL SCHWA , U+1E49 MODIFIER LETTER SMALL I and U+1D52 MODIFIER LETTER SMALL O . See Unicode: Phonetic Extensions. All these have compatibility decompositions to superscript style applied to the corresponding regular letters which means Unicode considers that users should consider the superscript letters as generally indistinguishable from a superscript style applied to the corresponding normal letters. The value in using the hard superscripts would be that the letters should better match the weight of other characters in the font (in whatever few fonts actually currently support these) and the formatting is not lost when transferred to a plain text environment. On the other hand the value in applying superscript style to normal characters is that the results are far more likely to be visible in current browers. Similarly in the few cases where I've used an underline I've done it by html style for the same reason. However, if no-one is complaining about your efforts, then I will probably also switch to using hard-underscored characters, at least for cases where the transliteration letter actually represents a distinct letter in the character set rather than, as in Hebrew, a variant pronunciation of a letter.

 * Of course there are slightly different conventions for transliteration, even using the same character system, for example I prefer ʾÎyôḇ to ʾIyyôḇ and Śārâ instead of Śārāh and would probably use the latter in the body of any article where I was transliterating those names for some reason. But both methods are used and I don't complain about your use for heading purposes. Similarly I would, as mentioned in my previous comments, generally ignore softening in transliteration as most do, but quite agree with the use of the softening bar indication for use in the heading paragraphs. I have also done so on occasion in heading paragraphs.

 * Now for my one serious complaint. The use of ə seems to me non-standard. That I do have a problem with.

 * Mostly, indeed almost universally I think, normal vocal shewa is represented either by superscript e or breved ĕ. I like using the genuine IPA shewa (though its use seems to me unusual and if called on it I would be willing to draw back). I believe I've only seen it used somewhat rarely with the superscript method as ə. I don't think I've ever seen non-superscript ə in Latin-letter Hebrew transcription. The use of e or ĕ rather than ə may have arisen originally for typographical reasons, most printers not having sufficient superscript ə in the days of hard type. But it was also unambiguous as anyone who knows Tiberian Hebrew pointing knows that e or ĕ in transliteration must stand for hatef-segol following alef, `ayin, heh, and het and must stand for normal vocal shewa anywhere else.

 * But it feels very wrong to me to apply superscripting to hatef-shewas and not to do the same with normal vocal shewa, whether one represents normal vocal shewa by e or by the less normal ə. If indeed you can point out sources that use your method, I withdraw any objection other than that of personal preference for indicating clearly the shortness of vocal shewa and for following more common usage. If you cannot find such sources, then a more normal representation should be adopted. The more normal your transliteration, the less it can be validly objected to.

 * Since you have taken all this on yourself without seeking consensus, I am still in part waiting to see what objections might be raised before madly going off to fix things in articles I've largely written or revised to at least use the half-ring characters in preference to the quote symbols I'd been using and to introduce proper underscore characters in Ugaritic forms. Perhaps the era of Unicode characters is finally comiming into its own. But perhaps not.

 * Jallan 03:43, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Well, in this regard I've relied on academic webpages and textbooks, and I know that the linguistics department at Brigham Young University (one of the biggest institutions of linguistic study on earth) uses plain ə ĕ ă ŏ when they constitute a syllable, but use superscript for final pre-pharyngeal a. But come to think of it, while I could have told you before that I was absolutely certain that the superscripts were used after א ה ח ע before other consonants, now I think I'm not so sure.  They could simply be using breve forms, but I also remember being told that these hateph vowels represent a transition between consonants in the same way as shewa, but that the guttural consonants can never take an ordinary shewa and must take a hateph instead.  As such, in these cases, the superscript vowels represent the briefest of hatephs where an equivilent shewa would usually never be transliterated at all. - Gilgamesh 04:06, 18 July 2004 (UTC)

 * A problem is, I think, that both of us have seen so many different transcription systems for Hebrew and for other scripts, and often read for meaning rather than worrying about any anomalies or oddities. It is hard to recall exactly what is or is not standard.

 * But as far as I know, and I just checked good old Gesenius/Kautch on this, vocal shewas indicate what was a shortening of formerly full-length short vowels in open syllables. The vowel coloration was also lost, except when preceded by a "gutteral", whence the special hatef-shewa Tiberian notation. Furtive pathah is another beast entirely, perhaps a faint pathah to replace somewhat in length and timbre a final gutteral that was already often not pronounced.

 * Generally scholarly Hebrew transription systems either use superscripts for all vocal shewas or breved vowels for all vocal shewas. The latter system sometimes still uses a superscript for furtive pathah. But there is normally no mixing of superscipt vocal shewas with breved vocal shewas within a single system. The Brigham Young system you describe seems to be a modification of the breved vocal shewa system in which non-hatef vocal shewas are indicated by the IPA shewa symbol instead of by ĕ. Breve may have been omitted for tyopgraphical reasons. But of course breve is redundant on ǝ in any case since in a Hebrew transcription it must be represent a half-length vowel. The Brigham Young system seems to be the standard breve system with addition of IPA shewa as an extra flourish.

 * Generally a system using superscripts does not use any casing, even on proper names. After all, it is transliterating a script which uses no casing. A form like ʾAḇîḡáyil looks silly, though I think I've occasionally seen such. The breve system is far more likely to optionally use casing for readibility and is better if one wishes the same forms of proper names that appear in strict transcription of Hebrew to also appear in non-Hebrew Latin text.

 * Of course writers mix systems in the same text. I'm looking now at Speiser's Anchor Bible Genesis which follows the general scholarly transliteration for Classical Hebrew text, except macron is also used where more commonly circumflex would be used and sere is represented by e with an underdot. Occasionally Rabbinical forms are transcribed in a more modern transcription using f. Speiser also uses apostrophe forms rather than the half circles. In Koehler and Baumgartner's The Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament, vocal shewas are superscript but the breve also appears occasionally to mark the normal short vowels, presumably when there presence is unusual or pertinent to a paricular discussion. They also use macrons where more precise transcription would use circumflex.

 * But mixing superscript shewas with breve shewas in the same word I find unusual and bothersome, except for initial capitals (that is capitals following alef or `ayin). My own choice would be to use the superscripts, either with no capitlization or with transformation of a superscript that requires capitalization into a breved capital. But all breves is fine with me also and has its own virtues. If you decide to go that route I won't mind changing things that I have done to fit.

 * Jallan 16:28, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Well, I would prefer to use all breves. However, I should still use superscript "a" for before final guttural consonants.  Also, by using all breves, even with only this one exception for superscript "a", I could eliminate <sup><small>a</small></sup> altogether, and just go with ª (Unicode 0xAA).  I prefer this route, personally.  I never liked mixing HTML with Wikipedia, but did it because there is no Unicode character for superscript "e" (so I superscripted "a" and "o" for consistency). - Gilgamesh 04:58, 19 July 2004 (UTC)

 * Actually, I found another source that uses ə for shewa and breved vowels for hatephs for Tiberian transliteration. Dictionary.com uses it in etymologies of Hebrew words.  Personally, I think it has academic credit.     - Gilgamesh 05:12, 19 July 2004 (UTC)

 * That suggestion is fine with me. The breve method looks less technical and there is some value in explicitly distinguishing furtive pathah from hatef-pathah (though I doubt there are any cases where one could be confused with the other if indicated by the same character as is also done).

 * As to using U+00AA, both this and U+1D43 are given compatibility decomposition to " 0061 a" (though not cross-referenced to each other).

 * You seem to have missed my note above:
 * "As to superscript letters: there is U+1E43 MODIFIER LETTER SMALL A, U+1D4A MODIFIER LETTER SMALL SCHWA, U+1E49 MODIFIER LETTER SMALL I and U+1D52 MODIFIER LETTER SMALL O . See Unicode: Phonetic Extensions."
 * Most standard Latin letters do now have superscripts in Unicode including all those needed for representation of shewa if one wishes to go that route.
 * The respective properties of the two superscript Unicode a forms (as found at Unicode: Data.txt) are:

 * The only difference is that U+00AA is UCD (Unicode General Category) Ll (Letter, lowercase) while U+1D43 is UCD Lm (Letter, modifier). U+1D43 is the more correct one to use, as all the superscript Latin letters characters intended for phonetic use have UCD Lm in Unicode, though the description modifier is somewhat inaccurate for most uses of such characters. Also, the semantic meaning "feminine ordinal indicator" (abbreviated in the HTML entity name &ordf;) is incorrect and occasionally in some fonts the character appears with an underscore. That said, I've no objection to using U+00AA rather than U+1D43. U+1D43 and other characters in that section of Unicode are new additions, and until there is far more font support for U+1D43 than at present, I feel U+00AA will do excellently.
 * Of course, within an article can use anyone can use any other reasonable Hebrew transcriptions that they prefer (whether for Classical or for modern Hebrew). My concern was that if a single style transcription is to be generally used and imposed in the headings of the articles, that the transcriptions should match general scholarly usage where such usage is at least 90% in agreement and follow one of the common usages where standard transcription usages differ in minor ways. It seems to me that the usage you now advocate reasonably accomplishes that goal. No-one familiar with scholarly Hebrew transcription would find anything puzzling or unusual or odd in the transcription, even if not exactly their own preferred style.
 * Jallan 18:22, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:Gilgamesh~enwiki/Archive 2


text:
Jeremy Vine

Jeremy Guy Vine (born 17 May 1965) is an English television and radio presenter and journalist. He is best known as the host of his BBC Radio 2 lunchtime programme which presents news, views, interviews with live guests and popular music, taking over from long-serving host Jimmy Young in 2003.

Vine is also the host of the Channel 5 (formerly BBC Two) quiz programme Eggheads, taking over from former host Dermot Murnaghan full-time in 2014. In 2015, he was a contestant on the 13th series of Strictly Come Dancing. Since September 2018, he has presented a Channel 5 weekday current-affairs show, Jeremy Vine.

Early life
Jeremy Vine was born in Cheam, London. He is the elder son of Guy Vine (1937–2018), lecturer in civil engineering at North East Surrey College of Technology, and Diana (née Tillett), who was a housewife and later a doctor's receptionist. Vine has two siblings; a sister called Sonya and a brother, Tim.

Vine was privately educated: at Lynton Preparatory School in Ewell, then Aberdour School in Burgh Heath, and then Epsom College. He played the drums in a band called The Flared Generation, of which his brother Tim was also a member; Smash Hits magazine described them as "the most unfashionable punk band in the country". At Durham University (Hatfield College), he graduated with a 2:2 undergraduate degree in English. He was a member of the sketch comedy group, The Durham Revue, and was an editor of the student newspaper, Palatinate. His radio career started on Durham Hospitals Radio, as a volunteer.

Following a short stint on Metro Radio, Vine enrolled in a journalism training course with the Coventry Evening Telegraph, before joining the BBC in 1987.

Broadcasting career
Vine's career at the BBC included reading the news on the radio in Northern Ireland and working as a researcher on the BBC1 series Heart of the Matter. In 1989, he became a regular reporter on the BBC Radio 4 programme Today, filing reports from across Europe.

While working for Today, he published two comic novels set amidst the modern Church of England, including Forget Heaven, Just Kiss Me (1992) and The Whole World in My Hands (1993). The novels were not successful, and Vine now regards them as juvenilia.

In the mid-1990s, Vine became familiar to BBC TV viewers as a political reporter, which included reporting on the ascent of New Labour under Tony Blair. He later made his mark offering irreverent reports on the 1997 General Election.

Following the 1997 election, Vine became the Africa Correspondent based in Johannesburg, travelling across Africa. Reporting assignments took him to the war front to report on the Eritrean–Ethiopian War, the Angolan Civil War, the violence in Lesotho after South African troops went in and hoisted a South African flag over the Royal Palace, following leadership disputes. He also travelled to Algiers and Kenya, to report during political elections.

Vine was successful in gaining interviews with key leaders in various African nations, including the President of Zimbabwe, Robert Mugabe, and the leader of the Islamist regime in Khartoum, Sudan. Other areas of Africa from which he has reported include Mali, Zambia, Sierra Leone and the Niger Delta (to report on the Nigerian villagers' unrest over the work of the oil companies).

In April 1999, Vine presented an exclusive report on South African police brutality for BBC Two's Newsnight. The film won the Silver Nymph at the Monte Carlo Television Festival and resulted in the suspension of 22 police officers. In July 1999, the BBC announced that Vine was joining Newsnight full-time as a co-presenter, having stood in for Jeremy Paxman over the two previous summers. Paxman was reported to have called Vine "mini-me", a reference to the diminutive associate of Dr. Evil in the Austin Powers film series.

Vine was one of the original presenters of Broadcasting House on BBC Radio 4 and presented The Politics Show on BBC One from its launch in 2003 until Jon Sopel took over in 2005.

In May 2006, Vine was announced as Peter Snow's replacement for presenting the BBC election graphics, including the famous Swingometer. His performance on the night of the council elections in England and Wales on 30 April 2008 was widely criticised.

From 2007 until 2009, Vine co-presented the Teaching Awards with Kate Thornton (2007), Myleene Klass (2008) and Christine Lampard (2009).

Between 2007 and 2010, Vine was the presenter of the BBC's flagship and the world's oldest current affairs programme, Panorama, which coincided with the show's move back to a Monday peak-time slot.

From 2008 to 2018, Vine presented Points of View, taking over from Sir Terry Wogan. On 6 October 2008, he started hosting the former BBC Two quiz show Eggheads while the spin-off show, Are You an Egghead?, was presented by the regular host, Dermot Murnaghan. Once the spin-off show had finished, Vine continued to host the second half of each series, with Murnaghan hosting the first half. In Series 16, it was announced that Vine had become the sole presenter. As of 2014, Vine also hosted the spin-off series Revenge of the Egghead. The series ran for a 6-week period, between 24 February and 4 April 2014. On 12 March 2021, it was announced that after 18 years at the BBC, the programme would be moving to Channel 5, and Vine was to continue as host of the show. From 2016 to 2017, Vine co-presented Crimewatch with Tina Daheley.

In September 2018, Vine replaced Matthew Wright as the presenter of Channel 5's weekday morning current affairs show, formerly called The Wright Stuff. The show's name has now changed to Jeremy Vine. Vine said he would continue to present his Radio 2 weekday lunchtime programme. In March 2021, it was announced that Eggheads would be joining his morning current affairs/phone-in show as a programme broadcast on Channel 5, after the BBC put the quiz on hiatus.

BBC Radio 2
On 6 January 2003, after several stints as a stand-in for Jimmy Young on BBC Radio 2, Vine took over the weekday lunchtime show on a regular basis. The show consists of a mix of news-based discussions, including views from listeners, interspersed with popular music. After Vine took over the hosting duties, the show was revamped. While the regular Thursday food slot was dropped, the Monday health and Friday legal advice slots were retooled.

Monday's The Health and Wellbeing Hour includes either general practitioner Sarah Jarvis or Rabbi Julia Neuberger, while Friday's Your Money and Your Life, involves a variety of contributors, most frequently Martin Lewis. Since 2003, Friday's shows have frequently included a link-up to Rhondda gardener Terry Walton. For four years, until October 2006, Lucy Berry served as the show's in-house poet.

Strictly Come Dancing
On 10 August 2015, Vine was the first celebrity to be announced as taking part in the thirteenth series of the popular BBC One competition Strictly Come Dancing. Vine was partnered with professional, Karen Clifton. On the fourth week of the contest, after Vine danced a jive to Bobby Darin’s "Splish Splash", Bruno Tonioli described him as a "Peculiar, off-the-wall artist like Tracey Emin", and Craig Revel Horwood compared him to "a stork that had been struck by lightning."

In week eight of the show he was in the dance-off, alongside Jamelia, and voted out of the show; finishing in ninth place. He also took part in the 2017 Christmas special with the same partner.

Controversies
It was revealed on 4 February 2015 that Vine received a five-figure sum for a post-dinner speech at a £250-a-head banquet organised by ADS Group, the trade organisation that represents defence and security industries in the UK, and attended by global arms manufacturers. Campaign Against Arms Trade lodged a formal complaint with the BBC, claiming a conflict for the organisation appearing to support an industry which "profits from dictatorships which silence and suppress debate". This prompted a BBC response saying: "Jeremy is a freelance presenter and so can make personal appearances without speaking on behalf of the BBC, as he did here."

In January 2018, Vine was one of six male BBC presenters who voluntarily took a pay cut when the gap between men's and women's pay at the BBC was revealed.

In December 2018, Vine apologised after a tweet suggested people in Wales should speak English. The tweet was deleted after Vine said that the tweet had been taken out of context and that he was talking about a caller to his show who had complained about Welsh people not talking in English in the pubs.

In October 2019, the journalist Samira Ahmed brought legal proceedings against the BBC under the Equal Pay Act. Key evidence cited in the case revealed that Vine had initially been paid £3,000 (later reduced to £1,300) per episode for presenting Points of View at a time when Ahmed had been paid £440 an episode for presenting Newswatch, a similarly formatted show. The differential was defended in part by a BBC executive referring to Vine having had a "glint in his eye" and a "cheeky" and light-hearted presentation style. The London Central Employment Tribunal unanimously found in Ahmed's favour on 10 January 2020. There was no suggestion that Vine was involved in Ahmed being underpaid.

On 25 May 2023, a post from the "Jeremy Vine on 5" Twitter account asked if it was "time to crack down" on sick people claiming out-of-work benefits. The tweet was criticised by disability campaigners who accused it of "trolling" and "demonising" sick people. The tweet was later deleted.

Personal life
Vine was married to an American banker, Janelle, for seven years, which ended in 2000. Vine stated that it was "very sad", but their jobs and travel meant they had "seen very little" of each other in three years. He married Rachel Schofield, a journalist and news presenter, in 2002. The couple have two daughters.

Vine is the patron of Radio St Helier, a UK‐registered charity providing radio programmes to patients at St Helier Hospital in Carshalton.

Vine is a practising Anglican and attends church. He has deplored what he sees as the marginalisation of Christians in British society, saying that "You can't express views that were common currency 30 or 40 years ago".

In August 2016, a car driver threatened and was abusive to Vine while he was cycling along Hornton Street in Kensington, London. Vine captured the encounter on his helmet camera, later broadcasting it on YouTube where it was viewed several million times. Vine also reported it to the police. On 18 April 2017, the car driver was jailed for nine months for threatening behaviour. At the time of the incident, she was subject to a suspended sentence for various other offences.

In October 2021, anti-vaccine campaigners protested outside Vine's home, objecting to the BBC's coverage of COVID-19 vaccines. As Vine was not at home at the time, they presented their "anti-vaxx writ", a document without legal authority, to his wife. He later posted videos of the incident online. Vine has said he contracted COVID-19 and commented on receiving the vaccine.

In February 2022, Vine was "knocked out cold for a minute or two" after falling 8 feet, onto grass, from his penny-farthing bicycle. He was taken to Charing Cross Hospital where doctors told him he was "lucky to have just a black eye and some aches from the fall".

In August 2022, Alex Belfield, a former BBC Radio Leeds presenter and the host of YouTube channel "Alex Belfield - The Voice of Reason", was convicted at Nottingham Crown Court of stalking Vine and three others. Vine described Belfield as "the Jimmy Savile of trolling", and said he had been subjected to an "avalanche of hatred" and a "constant bombardment" of harassing tweets and YouTube videos. Vine also told the court that he feared Belfield or one of his followers would go to his home, which led him to putting a picture up of Belfield so that his family could recognise him. Vine also sued Belfield for defamation. The next month, on 16 September, Belfield was sentenced. The "simple stalking" element relating to the case involving Vine resulted in a sentence of thirteen weeks; this was added to the other sentences to provide an overall sentence of five-and-a-half years.

In May 2024, judge Mrs Justice Steyn in the High Court ruled in favour of Vine, who had sued former footballer Joey Barton for libel over posts on Twitter; 11 of the 14 cited tweets were found to be defamatory. Barton had repeatedly called Vine a "bike nonce", a vulgar British term for a paedophile, and had falsely associated Vine with paedophiles including Jimmy Savile and Jeffrey Epstein.

Awards and honours
Vine was named Speech Broadcaster of the Year at the 2005 and 2011 Sony Awards. At the latter, the 2010 election interview with Gordon Brown, in which the then-Prime Minister put his head in his hands as he was played the recording of him calling a voter a bigot, won Vine the Sony Award for Interview of the Year.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Jeremy Vine


text:
Dewan Bahasa dan Pustaka

Dewan Bahasa dan Pustaka (Institute of Language and Literature, Jawi: ديوان بهاس دان ڤوستاک), abbreviated DBP, is the government body responsible for coordinating the use of the Malay language and Malay-language literature in Malaysia.

History
DBP Malaysia was established as Balai Pustaka in Johor Bahru on 22 June 1956, It was placed under the purview of the then Malayan Ministry of Education.

During the Kongres Bahasa dan Persuratan Melayu III (The Third Malay Literary and Language Congress) which was held between 16 and 21 September 1956 in both Singapore and Johor Bahru, Balai Pustaka was renamed Dewan Bahasa dan Pustaka. Royal Prof Ungku Abdul Aziz Ungku Abdul Hamid was instrumental in setting up the institution.

In 1957, DBP moved from Johor Bahru to Kuala Lumpur. Through Ordinan Dewan Bahasa dan Pustaka 1959, DBP was granted a charter with its own Board of Governors. With the charter, DBP has the power to form policies regarding the Malay language, responsible to spread the language and is able to go into book publishing business.

On 31 January 1962, DBP moved to its own building at Jalan Lapangan Terbang Lama (now Jalan Dewan Bahasa). The building's architect was Lee Yoon Thim and the prominent mural was by Ismail Mustam. Three other offices were established in Bukit Mertajam (1999), Kota Bharu (1999) and Johor Bahru (2003). The institution celebrated its 50th anniversary in 2006.

Takeover of Borneo Literature Bureau
Not long after the World War II 1940s to late 1960s, Crown officials of Sarawak founded the Borneo Literature Bureau (BLB) responsible for collecting and writing down the oral literature of many indigenous Bornean languages, Iban especially. Such efforts bolstered a sense of pride as it also lead to explorations of native philosophy and epistemology.

DBP opened offices in Kota Kinabalu and Kuching in 1977, taking over the role of BLB. Soon after that, there were witness accounts of DBP burying all BLB published books; however, some books were found and rescued. It was later alleged that all the books were burnt. Initially, DBP officials insisted on publishing works in national language (Malay language) or other vernaculars. However, soon after that DBP stated that they cannot publish books in regional languages because this would be against its own policy and is not economically sound in a small market of readers. Regarding the allegation that books of BLB were burnt, former Sarawak state DBP deputy director said that old books were written off or given away when it was expired, no longer needed, or there were overstocks.

Dictionary and other publications
DBP publishes the Kamus Dewan, for many years the prestigious dictionary of the Malaysian national language. The dictionary is not only descriptive, but rather it is also prescriptive, as it represents the results of the efforts of DBP to adapt the Malay language to accommodate the challenges of technology and science. DBP's role in developing and regulating the language may be likened to that of similar government bodies in other countries, for example the Académie Française.

It also processes many books, mainly work books and novels.

title: Dewan Bahasa dan Pustaka


text:
Talk:List of Alberta provincial highways

Highway 29 and 67
I can't seem to find Highway 29 or 67 on my map, and I was unable to find them via a google search. Can anyone elaborate as to where these highways are? Earl Andrew 10:19, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Couldn't find them in my (searchable) mapset either. Qyd(talk)22:55, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

 * The following is copied from my talk page. --Qyd 22:47, 7 February 2007 (UTC): Go to AB government. Highway 29 is a new highway that replaced several other secondary highways. --Colin473 19:29, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Highway 67 was renumbered as Highway 88 back in the late 1980's or early 1990's. As for Highway 29, it replaced Secondary Highway 637 and a small section of Highway 28 through St. Paul. The section of highway that was previously numbered as Highway 28A running north of St. Paul was renumbered Highway 28 Nericson081263 (talk) 16:02, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

 * To add to this last post, the renumbering of Hwy 67 to 88 occurred in 1988 and coincided with the bicentennial of Fort Vermilion, which was founded in 1788.(Hwy43 (talk) 04:54, 4 November 2009 (UTC))

 * Not sure if anyone would still be interested, but the original Highway 29 was a short highway that linked the Village of Spring Lake (formerly the Summer Village of Edmonton Beach) with Highway 16A (formerly Highway 16) near Beach Corner west of Stony Plain. --Hwy43 (talk) 05:35, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

 * Are you basing that off of Google maps? I assumed that it was wrong, I'd like to see a better source of why Google calls that road Hwy 29. 117Avenue (talk) 00:11, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

 * No, although I too have noticed the same on Google. I'm basing it off of my extensive historic collection of official Alberta road maps.  On the 1971 edition in front of me right now, the previous iteration of Highway 29 is shown as having a mileage of 4 mi from start to finish.  It started at then Highway 16, travelling due west about 1.5 mi and then turned due south to then Edmonton Beach, traveling no more than about 2.5 mi.  If you want to go even further back in history, Parkland Drive as labelled on the Google link you provided (currently incorrectly numbered as Hwy 29) was actually an even earlier alignment of Highway 16 before it was re-routed to the north at the time of twinning (or maybe earlier - I haven't pinpointed when the alignment changed yet).  This means the roughly 1.5 mi stretch of road between the current Hwy 16/43 interchange and Parkland Drive was formerly Highway 43.  I learned this recently and have been meaning to drive the old stretches of both and been meaning to pinpoint when the re-routing occurred.  As you know based on our past discussions, Google's roadway network database is out-of-date, inaccurate and just plain wrong in many cases when it comes to labels (road names and highway numbers).  Quite disappointing... --Hwy43 (talk) 04:59, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

 * Yes, I am quite annoyed by how much Google is trusted. I think a great deal of Edmontonians think that Hwy 16A goes through the city, and I have seen the engineering drawings for the north leg of the Henday that label Range Road 244 as Hwy 28A.

 * Ah yes, chalk both of those up under the once-upon-a-time category! Regarding the engineering drawings, were you referring to this? --Hwy43 (talk) 05:56, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * No those are AT drawings, I've seen the ones from the Engineer that are used on site. 117Avenue (talk) 00:22, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Highway 31
Where is Highway 31. In the article it says it's between Seba Beach and Gainford, yet the two communities are linked by highway 759 and yellowhead, no direct link (see google maps for example). --Qyd 03:40, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Hwy 31 is so short that most maps don't have it; I was quite surprised to see the "Hwy 31" signs when I had to drive down 759 about a year ago.  It's primary highway 31 from the Hwy 16 junction to the southern edge of Seba Beach, and secondary highway 759 from there on, with only tiny signs to mark the transition. I have no idea why it's set up that way. 02:30, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure if Hwy 31 exists anymore. Any signs for that corner along the Yellowhead read as 759, unless this has been changed recently.  As well, it also appear tha Hwy 30 has been decommissioned as well, as any signage for that corner does not show the highway number anymore. Nericson081263 (talk) 19:25, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

 * It still does exist according to both the 2008 and 2009 editions of Alberta Transportation's "Primary Highways 1 to 216 Series Progress Chart" and the 2009 Alberta Official Road Map produced by Alberta Sustainable Resource Development for Travel Alberta (a division of Alberta Tourism, Parks and Recreation). (Daryou1978 (talk) 10:05, 4 November 2009 (UTC))

Highway 93
Highway 93 doesn't end at Lake Louise, unless something's changed recently. It continues southeast on the same roadbed as the Trans-Canada to Castle Junction, where it branches off again and heads for Vermilion Pass on the B.C. border. The highway continues with the same "93" number all the way to Mexico, or a least California, if I recall correctly. The name "Icefields Parkway", however, is restricted to the Jasper-Lake Louise portion. Indefatigable 21:07, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Copyright problem
I believe that the original page came from especially since the typo error on Highway 11A shows a closing parenthesis after Rocky Mountain House on both pages. However, I think the same results could have been generated anyway. Also the page has been modified and is obviously useful. Cadillac 15:18, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Highway 666
I was surprised to find that there's no article about any Highway 666. Alberta is one of several provinces and states to have a highway with this somewhat notable numeric assignment. QuinnHK 05:05, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It's now a red link in the list. Qyd(talk)22:53, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * There's an article now Alberta secondary highway 666. --Qyd 02:00, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Map
has a decent pair of maps as a source for what highways exist; unfortunately you can't calculate most mileages with it.--NE2 13:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Grizzly hwy.png
The image Image:Grizzly hwy.png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --07:17, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Highway 615
I have tried several times to add Secondary Highway 615 to the list. It has been removed each time it has been added for some strange reason, as this highway does in fact exist between Highways 14 and 36 running south to southeast of Viking. The most recent maps show this highway, however it keeps being removed. Nericson081263 (talk) 16:06, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Hello! Welcome to wikipedia. Thank-you for finally creating an account, so that I can talk to you. I am from Beaver County, so I keep up with the recent news, the decision to make Hwy 615 part of Hwy 26 is so recent, as seen on this news release, that no map shows it yet. I have already redirected the article Alberta Highway 615 to Alberta Highway 26. Also, I have never heard of this Philips, it does not deserve a Wiki link, as the other hamlets in Beaver County (Bruce, Kinsella), do not have articles yet. Another thing that I would like you to keep in mind, is that maps from popular brands, and internet mapping websites, are not always right, I have used a Government of Alberta issued map. 117Avenue (talk) 18:07, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi! Thanks for clearing this up. I was not aware that this change had been made as I was going from a 2009 edition of the Alberta Road Atlas, so this must have been very recent.  I had lived in Edmonton for several years and had occasionally travelled Highway 14 whenever I headed east.  Thanks for this. Nericson081263 (talk) 18:34, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi there, just took a look at this and the Beaver County newsletter link. It appears from the newsletter County Council has supported the proposed renumbered of Hwy 615 to 26. However, has Alberta Transportation finalized the proposal to make the renumbering official? If no, I would suggest it remains as Hwy 615 until the renumbering is officially confirmed. Obviously I'm not "in the know" on this one. Just curious and adding my two cents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Daryou1978 (talk • contribs) 07:41, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * All I know is from the county newsletter. It appears from the newsletter that Alberta Transportation had the idea before Beaver County Council. I must admit I did want to change this article a bit preemptively, so that it won't have to be changed in the future. But this newsletter was written in June, it must have taken into effect by now. I realize that it takes time to go from Council and government signing documents to the actual physical signs being changed, that it why the formal highways section gives the general term "2009". 117Avenue (talk) 07:56, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Based on what I've learned from the four Provincial news links on this page involving past highway renumberings, it appears AT was recently undertaking the municipal consultation stage of renumbering the highway. With the support of County Council attained, I suspect the renumbering is inevitable.  Perhaps an inquiry to AT is in order, or we can wait until the 2010 Alberta Road Map is released.  The 2009 versions of the AT Progress Charts that I have (prepared May, 2009) still show it as Hwy 615. (Daryou1978 (talk) 03:44, 4 November 2009 (UTC))
 * It is official. I inquired with AT and AT confirmed Hwy 615 was renumbered to Hwy 26 effective July 14th.  This should then show up on the 2010 Primary Highway Progress Charts, which are annual snapshots in time taken on March 31 (the end of AT's fiscal year).  In other news, an AT news release issued today (Nov-4/09) announced that the Hwy 54 realignment (bypass of Innisfail) is now open. (Daryou1978 (talk) 00:34, 5 November 2009 (UTC))

Copyrighted material
Could this excessive or improper use of copyrighted material please be explained? My guess is that it is referring to the highway shields, but all list of highways for provinces and states show the highway markers. And from my understanding this article is allowed to have Alberta highway markers, (for example see Alberta Yellowhead Highway media use rationale.) What exactly is the problem? 117Avenue (talk) 22:14, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * In a list such as this the use of copyrighted material is excessive and unneeded. All the shields that are copyrighted has to be removed. That there are invalid rationales for this article is not relevant. Rettetast (talk) 07:45, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I've removed the non-free highway signs, replacing them with textual links to the highways they represent. This satisfies WP:NFCC #1, and WP:NFLISTS. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:01, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually I think that WP:NFLISTS #4 allows the use of these images. 117Avenue (talk) 00:43, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Not in this case, no it doesn't. This is really no different than discographies, bibliographies, videographies, and the like. This is a list, and we do not include a long list of non-free images like this. If you disagree, other people's opinions on the matter are available for discussion at WT:NFC. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:32, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

 * Somebody re-added the copyrighted images. I've removed them again. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:12, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
 * This list displays the types of markers used in Alberta, just like List of Canadian flags can display the flag of Edmonton, read WP:NFLISTS #4. For example, not only is Highway 36 marked by File:Alberta Highway 36.svg, but by File:Alberta Highway 36 (Veteran Memorial).svg; not including half of the marker on this list would be misrepresentation. 117Avenue (talk) 00:11, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Hey! I got an idea! Let's edit war! That will work wonders, won't it? I'm sure it will make things just peachy keen around here, right? I'm feeling better already! Wow! Thank you!
 * Look, this isn't "List of Alberta Provincial Highway MARKERS" It's "List of Alberta provincial highways". The markers already exist on the separate individual highway articles, such as Crowsnest Highway. Your comparison to List of Canadian flags is invalid. Treating this article as you are wanting to do is no different than summarizing all the album releases of Michael Jackson in his discography and including the album covers. We don't do that around here. Sorry. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:02, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

No, please don't edit war. That will get one -1- of you blocked. The guideline WP:NFLISTS #4 does not allow for small copyrighted icons to be used in this article. #4 only says that we prefer to use the same image, not that it can be used in the first place. The files simply fail WP:NFCC in this context as they are not important to understand this article. If you believe using only free images on this list result in a misrepresentation of the subject, we should consider removing all the shields. I really don't see the importance of any of them. Rettetast (talk) 15:42, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * My comments about edit warring were sarcastic, and referring to 117Avenue's actions in trying to force the images back in without consensus to do so. Last year, there was also a debate about fair use images being used as icons (i.e., small size, less than 100px) with the result being in that case that the use of them as icons was deprecated. I think here the dimensions on width is/was 32px. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:26, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think it fails NFCC#8, I think it is important to list which highways in Alberta have special naming and marking significance. A look at the list without images wouldn't give any inclination that there are special highways. Will this article have to be renamed to "List of Alberta provincial highways and markers" to legitimize it, or will a new article titled "List of Alberta provincial highway markers" have to be created? 117Avenue (talk) 23:24, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It doesn't work like that. We don't rename articles to get around regulations here. The point would be in such case whether reliable secondary sources thought the sum work of Alberta highway markers was notable or not. A slavish reproduction of the highway markers without such secondary sources in another article would result in an unreferenced article which would not last long. You're saying these highways are special, and we have to have the markers to highlight that. I disagree. You could just as well add a free use icon to alert readers that the highway is special in someway, and they can then look at the specific highway article they are interested in if they must see the markers. There's simply no legitimate rationale for them to be included here that is in concert with our policies and guidelines. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:03, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

I have removed the NFCC-violations. If you want to pursue this I recommend Non-free content review. Rettetast (talk) 21:27, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? How can any other icon alert readers there is a special marker there without showing that marker? I think that the special markers are notable, and so does the government of Alberta, that is why they created them, what better source needs to say they are notable? I think that having a special marker means nothing if you can't compare them together. I think that having a list of the different highway markers used in Alberta is totally a legitimate list, and I hope to have one without renaming an article. Also, you didn't explain the difference between a list of highway markers and a list of flags. 117Avenue (talk) 08:20, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it might be useful for you to read No_original_research. The government of Alberta is a primary source. Effectively, it's like saying "We are notable because we are notable". Also, Wikipedia is not a guide. --Hammersoft (talk) 12:39, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Where is the proof that these images are actually under copyright? There is no such claim in the document listed as the source. Are they not works of US governmental agencies and as such in the public domain? OrangeDog  (τ • ε) 17:56, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Proof needs to be provided that the images are not under copyright, not the other way around. Copyright is automatic these days. There has to be a specific release of rights, or a clear reason as to how the images are free of copyright anyway. On the "hi signs" site, there is nothing to suggest any of the signs in question have been released under a free license. Also, Canada is not the United States, and Alberta is in Canada, not a state of the United States. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:27, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Does Hi Signs count as a secondary source, or should I look for other companies who make the signs? I searched the Alberta Transportation website for who owns the rights, and found the Highway Guide and Information Sign Manual published October 2006, it has the special route markers on page 49 and trailblazers on page 51, page 1 states that purchasers of this document are given permission to reproduce all or portion of the document without modification, does that mean the signs have been released to the public? By the way I am still waiting to hear why List of Canadian flags is allowed to be filled with copyright material. From what you have said here it shouldn't exist because the only source is government. 117Avenue (talk) 23:27, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, I think I missed a step. It's perfectly fine to use the primary source (and you SHOULD) to identify the source of material. It is not perfectly fine to produce an article on a subject for which there are no secondary or tertiary sources supporting claims of its notability. See Notability. With the permission from page 1, no that release is not compatible with concepts of free works, as they are specifically prohibiting derivative works, and therefore the signs must be used under terms of our WP:NFCC policy. As to List of Canadian flags, it is one of many problematic high non-free content articles. Coincidentally, it currently happens to be the worst in that regard, with 80 non-free images (2nd place has 73). The article is highly problematic because the claims of fair use are exceptionally weak and the sheer quantity is enormous. For example, the fair use claim for using File:Weyburn, SK flag.png in that article has the purpose of "To show the reader what the flag of Weyburn looks like." If that's all we needed for a valid fair use purpose claim, we could use fair use all over the project, anywhere we wanted to do so. Be careful in viewing other articles on the project as being the 'right' way to do things. See Other stuff exists. --Hammersoft (talk) 12:55, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I figured. But when you said my comparison to it was invalid, I thought you meant flags are allowed because they are different in some way. 117Avenue (talk) 00:26, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Official confirmation as to whether or not these markers can be used may simply be an email away. Ever thought of contacting Alberta Transportation? --Hwy43 (talk) 17:07, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * See WP:COPYREQ if anyone makes the effort. Though, I doubt such a request would be fruitful. We already know from the link 117Avenue helpfully provided that they don't want the materials modified, which prevents it from being available under a free license. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:41, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Granted what is presented on the cover page of the link 117Avenue provided, the manual is four years old and there since may have been a change in license, or there have been an exception for non-profit parties all along that wasn't published on the cover. If someone wants to make the effort, the second page (last paragraph) provides a contact name.  A phone number and email address can be found by searching that contact name here. Although it may not bear any fruit, the inquiry may be worthwhile to at least settle this long-standing difference of opinion. --Hwy43 (talk) 19:15, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Understand two things; one, permission to use on Wikipedia is not sufficient. Two, we permit for profit uses of free works. Non-profit has no relevance here. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:41, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * 117Avenue, should you choose to inquire, I suggest doing so per WP:COPYREQ while considering Hammersoft's 18:41 and 19:41 comments above. --Hwy43 (talk) 19:51, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I could give it a try. 117Avenue (talk) 00:26, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

1939 and 1960 Alberta road maps
For those interested in the earlier days of Alberta's highway system, see these black and white scans of the 1939 and 1960 official Alberta road maps. Cheers, --Hwy43 (talk) 05:41, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Highway 13A in Camrose
It appears that Highway 13A in Camrose is still a provincially numbered highway as evidenced by this Google Street View shot. The reason why it is not shown on the main map of this 2009 official Alberta Transportation map is that it only shows those provincial highways that are the responsibility of Alberta Transportation. The majority of highways within Alberta's cities are the responsibilities of their respective cities (a consequence of incorporating as a city).

There are some exceptions though. Based on the main map the official map linked above, these exceptions appear to be: Highway 43 through Grande Prairie; Highway 16 in Edmonton from 231 Street to Highway 216; all of Highway 216 in Edmonton; Highway 2 through Leduc, Red Deer, Airdrie and Calgary; Highways 3 and 4 through Lethbridge; and Highways 1 and 3 through Medicine Hat. On the 2010 version of this official map (not yet posted on Alberta Transportation's website), all of Highway 201 in Calgary is shown like these above on the 2009 version. All other highways from the 1-216 series that enter a city retain their provincially assigned number, but are the responsibilities of the cities. It just so happens that Highway 13A is the only provincially numbered highway within a city, under city jurisdiction, that is wholly within a city from start to finish.

I suggest that the Highway 13A segment within Camrose be re-added to the article with a description that states "Bypass wholly within and the responsibility of the City of Camrose" because it retains its provincially assigned highway number despite no longer being the responsibility of Alberta Transportation. --Hwy43 (talk) 04:07, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

 * Okay, but it isn't the only provincial highway, not under Alberta Transportation, Highway 93 and 93A, and a section of 1A are entirely within national parks. 117Avenue (talk)

 * You are correct. Add the applicable sections of Highways 1, 5, 11 and 16 to your list of provincially numbered highways under federal jurisdiction. --Hwy43 (talk) 05:02, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

QEII
As I understand it, the highway between Edmonton and Calgary is no longer called Highway 2 at all, but QEII. It should have its own entry separate from Highway 2. At the very least, the QEII sign should be incorporated into the list, as it's what people see, not the Highway 2 shield. 68.146.64.9 (talk) 14:43, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Provincial legislation (Provincial Highways Designation Order, effective January 1, 2010, under the Highways Development and Protection Act) and mapping (Alberta Transportation's Provincial Highways 1 - 216 Progress Chart and Travel Alberta's official road map) still number it as Highway 2, and the assignment of exit numbers between Calgary and Edmonton continue based on the Highway 2 exit numbers south of Calgary. Also on Anthony Henday Drive in Edmonton, way-finding signage at exit ramps refer to it as Highway 2. Hwy43 (talk) 16:57, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Yet another highway rebranding
A discussion has been initiated here advising that the province has rebranding the designation of its highway system once again.

The primary highways designation has been dropped in favour of provincial highways.

If you have any comments to share before revisions are processed to acknowledge the designation change, please do so at this other discussion (instead of here) to keep everything in one place. Cheers, Hwy43 (talk) 20:41, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Proposed renaming of Alberta provincial highways subcats
You are invited to comment at Categories for discussion/Log/2016 November 12. Cheers, Hwy43 (talk) 07:04, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Highway 65
Very likely went from Amber Valley to Athabasca. Did not last long. Original 55 probably went from Beiseker to Near Langdon (Highway 9 went on current Highway 72) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexlatham96 (talk • contribs) 20:30, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

 * I have every official Alberta road map issued since 1938. Highway 72 was never previously Highway 9. You use terms like "very likely" and "probably" for the others, but I'm fairly confident from memory of reviewing all these maps that these never existed. If you can provide approximate year(s) for each I can take a look however. Hwy43 (talk) 02:16, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

 * I don't have the maps in front of me, but I recall that Hwy 72 was previously Hwy 572 (changed in the early 1980's?) while the original Hwy 55 was present-day Hwy 21 between Hwy 16 and Fort Saskatchewan, while Hwy 21 ended at Hwy 14. Does anyone have the time-frame? MuzikMachine (talk) 15:23, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Alberta wordmark update
Hello! A couple years ago the province of Alberta updated their wordmark, resulting in all their highway shields having a slightly new look. The present 1-216 highways shields presently show this revised look; however, the 500-986 series and the selected named highways need to be updated. What would be the proper way to start this project? Cheers! MuzikMachine (talk) 15:28, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * It would just be a matter of somebody finding the time to do it. These days, I kind of prod away when I have a bit of time but that's vector graphic stuff I think, and I'd have to learn how to do it before tackling it. -- Acefitt 16:17, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

AB133X highway missing
133X is missing from the list. It's the highway through Morley that connects 1A to 1. I'd add it myself but not familiar enough with formatting.

Wikifanman14 (talk) 20:49, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

 * No such highway according to Alberta Transportation. 133 sounds like a range road number. Perhaps the community incorrectly posted a sign with the number 133X inside an Alberta Transportation highway marker? If you could provide a photo that would be helpful. Hwy43 (talk) 18:11, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

 * Just Google StreetViewed entire length from north to south and no evidence of my theory. Not sure how this is being incorrectly referred to as a highway as of yet. Hwy43 (talk) 18:19, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

 * Evidence points to 133X existing. If you look at the 2017 AB Transportation highway network map (link below), you can see a tiny line connecting 1A to 1 west of Cochrane and east of Seebe. That line is 133X. It is coloured brown on the map, unsure what that means. But nevertheless, it is included in the network map. Also, StreetView reveals no signage explicitly showing a sign for 133X, however, it does have a (Caring for Alberta highways) sign, which is only ever included on Alberta highways, not County or private roads.

 * http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Content/docType329/Production/ProvincialNetworkMap.pdf

 * Wikifanman14 (talk) 20:15, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

 * The following two maps are the definitive sources confirming current highway designations in Alberta.  It is not recognized as a highway in either series. It is not recognized as park access road or urban access road either (see lower left portion of the first map for listings). We need reliable and definitive source that confirm its designation as a highway and that it is numbered 133X. The other map provided does neither of those things. It is too bad that map doesn't put the brown roads in the legend to give us a more definitive idea of its role and standing within Alberta's roadway system. Hwy43 (talk) 02:46, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

"Interstate Highways in Alberta" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Interstate Highways in Alberta and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 April 29 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 10:24, 29 April 2022 (UTC)


text:
Tami Steinmetz Center for Peace Research

Tami Steinmetz Center For Peace Research was an academic research institution of Tel Aviv University was founded in 1992 and closed down in 2020 as the subject of peace was considered no longer relevant. The center was funded by Daniela and Daniel Steinmetz, who established it in memory of their daughter. It surveyed public opinion regarding the Israeli–Palestinian peace process, the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, and the Arab–Israeli conflict.

The center published monthly surveys about the current state of public opinion. It was most famous for the "Peace Index", a numerical measure of Israeli public support for the peace process. The Peace Index was divided into 4 sub-indices:
 * 1) General Peace Index
 * 2) Oslo Index
 * 3) Syrian Index
 * 4) Negotiation Index

Each index was computed according to the number and percent of supporters for each peace negotiation and the number of people believing that the negotiation will actually achieve peace.


text:
Dunash ben Labrat

Dunash ha-Levi ben Labrat (920/925 – after 985) (ר׳ דוֹנָש הַלֵּוִי בֵּן לָבְּרָט; دناش بن لبراط) was a medieval Jewish commentator, poet, and grammarian of the Golden age of Jewish culture in Spain. He is known for his philological commentary, Teshuvot Dunash, and for his liturgical poems D'ror Yiqra and D'vai Haser.

Life
Dunash was, according to Moses ibn Ezra, born in Fes, the name Dunash being of Berber origin. In his youth he travelled to Baghdad to study with Saadia Gaon. On returning to Morocco he wrote many poems and became famous, and there were even poems written about him. He taught grammar and poetry.

Hasdai ibn Shaprut, who lived in Córdoba, invited Dunash to Spain. Córdoba was then the center of culture and poetry in the Islamic world, and Hasdai endeavored to bring the best minds there. In Córdoba, Dunash met Menahem ben Saruq, also an important grammarian, though the two did not get along because of their many grammatical disputes as well as Menahem's tough criticism of Saadia Gaon, Dunash's mentor. Their dispute turned into personal rivalry, which included many polemic compositions and exchanges of accusations to Hasdai ibn Shaprut.

Dunash died in Córdoba in 990.

Work
Dunash is called the founder of Andalusian Hebrew poetry. He first introduced Arabic meter into Hebrew poetry. Traditional Arabic poetry was built on patterns of long and short syllables. Dunash's innovation came in drawing a parallel between the šəwâ (ə) and ḥāṭēp̄ (ĕ/ă/ŏ) and the Arabic short vowels (i/a/u), so as to create a new Hebrew meter. This meter formed the basis for all subsequent medieval Hebrew poetry. At the time, however, it opened him up to severe criticism, particularly among the students of Menahem ben Saruq, that he was corrupting the Hebrew language by introducing Arabic forms, and changing traditional Biblical styles to conform to Arabic meter and rhyming schemes. For instance, in his classic poem D'ror Yikra, he begins the second line: Ne'im shim'chem ("pleasant [is] your name"), with a modified form of the adjective "pleasant," which properly should be na'im.

This body of poetry includes the riddles of Dunash ben Labrat, among the first known Hebrew riddles.

In the field of grammar, Dunash's major work was a book attacking Menahem ben Saruq and his Mahberet ("Notebook") for violating religious standards and opposing the teachings of the sages. He dedicated his work to the leader of the Jews of Spain at the time, Hasdai ibn Shaprut. In his book, he was the first Hebrew grammarian to distinguish between transitive and intransitive verbs, the first to list verbs by their three-letter roots in the Paal construction, and the first to distinguish between "light" and "heavy" roots. He also condemned Menahem ben Saruq for failing to see the relationship between Hebrew and Arabic. Dunash also wrote a book containing two hundred reservations about the teachings of his old mentor, Saadia Gaon.

The students of Menahem ben Saruq responded with a scathing attack on Dunash, condemning him for using Arabic meter and grammar in studying the Hebrew language, as well as on issues of Jewish philosophy about which they were at odds. Rabbi Abraham Ibn Ezra also wrote a response to Dunash's work, in defense of Saadia Gaon. These challenges were met by Yehudi ben Sheshet, one of Dunash's students, who wrote a work in defense of his master that strongly opposed all of his detractors.

The debates between Dunash and others were finally decided in the centuries after his death by Rabbeinu Tam, a grandson of Rashi, who attempted to judge between the two schools of thought, and by Rabbi Joseph Kimhi, father of the noted grammarian Rabbi David Kimhi (RaDaK), who supported Dunash's positions. Nevertheless, many of the issues raised by Dunash have yet to be resolved today. Dunash is remembered as a poet and a grammarian who uncovered many of the major problems of Hebrew grammar.

Poetry of Dunash's wife
Though her name is unknown, Dunash's wife is held to be the author of a poem on the subject of Dunash's exile. This makes it the only known medieval Hebrew verse by a woman (and the only known medieval verse by a Jewish woman apart from those of Qasmuna and, if she was Jewish, Sarah of Yemen). Giving both verse and prose translations, it reads: An incomplete text of the poem was discovered and published in the 1940s in two fragments from one eleventh-century manuscript, Mosseri IV.387 and Mosseri VIII.202.2. At that time, the poem was assumed to be by Dunash. But a manuscript declaring the poem to be by Dunash's wife came to light in the 1980s, in the form of a probably eleventh-century fragment from the Cairo Geniza (where it is now catalogued as Cambridge, Cambridge University Library, T-S NS 143.46), and first edited by Ezra Fleischer. This manuscript includes an incomplete reply from Dunash to his wife:

Were you seeking the day of my death when you wrote: "Have you betrayed and abandoned your vows?" Could I betray a woman so wise given by God as the bride of my youth? Had my heart ever thought to leave you I would have torn it into pieces. For those who betray their beloved companion, God brings down with the trials of foes. Lions soon will devour his flesh, and vultures will consume his blood. Who resembles the stars of dawn [...]

The circumstances of this separation are unclear; it is thought that Dunash's wife composed her poem shortly after Dunash's departure, around 950. A further poem, found in 1985 written on the corner of a letter composed by Hasdai ibn Shaprut (T-S J2.71, f. 2v), identified as being a complaint from Dunash about his service under Hasdai, seems further to describe his feelings on leaving his wife. Following two illegible lines, the text reads:

Poetry

 * Aluny, Nehemya (ed.), 'Ten Dunash Ben Labrat's Riddles', The Jewish Quarterly Review, New Series, 36 (1945), 141-46.
 * Cole, Peter (trans.), The Dream of the Poem: Hebrew poetry from Muslim and Christian Spain, 950-1492 (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2007), p. 23-27 ("Dunash Ben Labrat" and "The wife of Dunash").
 * Del Valle Rodríguez, Carlos (trans.), El diván poético de Dunash ben Labraṭ: la introducción de la métrica árabe (Madrid: Consejo Superior de Investigciones Cinetí cas, 1988).

Shirim

 * Allony, Nehemiah (ed.), Dunash ben Labraṭ: Shirim (Jerusalem: Mosad Harav Kook, 1947).

Teshuvot

 * Filipowski, H. (ed.), Teshuvot Dunash ben Labraṭ (London and Edinburgh: Meorere Yeshenim, 1855).
 * Sáenz-Badillos, Angel (ed. and trans.), Tešuḇot de Dunaš BenLabraṭ (Granada: Univ. de Granada, 1980).
 * Schröter, Robert (ed.), Tešuḇot Dunaš ha-Levi ben Labraṭ ʻal R.Seʻadyah Gaʾon (Breslau, 1866).

Manuscript facsimiles

 * Cambridge, Cambridge University Library, T-S NS 143.46 (the poem of Dunash's wife, and his reply)
 * Cambridge, Cambridge University Library, Mosseri IV.387.2, Mosseri VIII.202.2 (another manuscript of Dunash's wife's poem)
 * University of Pennsylvania Center for Advanced Judaic Studies Library Halper 317, fol. 2v (lines 21 to the end are a set of ten verse riddles attributed to Dunash ben Labrat)

title: Dunash ben Labrat


text:
Ephel Duath

Ephel Duath may refer to:

 * Ephel Dúath, mountain range in Middle-earth
 * Ephel Duath (band), Italian band

title: Ephel Duath


text:
Talk:Yunnori

Name table
I suggest we removed the name table from this article (Wikipedia is not a dictionary, and it doesn't really add any information, nor does it help the readability of the article by removing romanizations from the opening sentence). Kokiri 8 July 2005 07:22 (UTC)

How To Play
I want to play this game. A few things are unclear about rules:

- What does this mean: The respective scores can be played separatly if wished. My interpretation: I could choose to move mal less than the score I got, or let two/several mals share the score when moving.

- Where is startpositions of all mals? Are all mals on start station or outside the board?

- You can only choose another course of the mal if it stand on a big station, but what are the default course? nr 4?

- Is it possible to start a new mal at anytime?

- Must the last move of mal ending up exactly at cham-meoki?

- When the mal land on a station occupied by several opponent mals, are this mals taken away from the game or could they restart. Isn't it impossible to win after that, and game is nearly over?

Please, Somebody who know the rules could make this clear.

--DagSa 22:32, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

A1: I'm not exactly sure- maybe it means that you can move any mal of your choice- you don't have to move only your first one.

A2: The startpoint of all mals are the bottom right corner.

A3: Yes, it IS possible to start a new mal at anytime, as you have to gea ALL of your mals back to the starting point to win.

A4: No. If your mal is 3 steps away from the cham-meoki, the last move can be a geol, a yut, or a mo.

A5: If your mal lands on a station occupied by another one of your mal, you can fuse them together to move faster. If your mal lands on a station occupied y an opponent's mal, you can capture it (or capture them if the mals were fused, and the captured mal goes back to the starting point. So, you have to think critically- fusing can make you go faster, but it can also make you lose your mals faster. Also, you can defuse anytime you want- just move only one of your mal when you can move the fused one.

Hope that helped. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.55.69.63 (talk) 15:49, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

naming
Some ppl may confuse yut with yeot, so I'd suggest a disambiguation page. (128.151.22.124 (talk) 20:16, 3 September 2009 (UTC))

Counting and names
The translations of the counting terms are suspicious: I questioned a Korean about that, and she could only confirm that gae (개) is "dog". Neither she nor a dictionary gave any evidence for the other renderings.

The Korean word for "horse" is mal (말), as already said in the section "Equipment". If these terms are taken from another language (or a Korean dialect???), it should be explicitly stated.

123.109.236.238 (talk) 05:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

 * You are right to be suspicious, but they are correct (allowing for differences of transcription in various sources). Stewart Culin in Korean Games, with Notes on the Corresponding Games of China and Japan Philadelphia: University Press of Pennsylvania, 1895 (rpt Rutland, Vermont: Charles E. Tuttle Company, 1958 as Games of the Orient) page 72 says:

The names applied to the throws in Nyout, with the exception of the name of the game itself which is [wrongly] confounded with ryouk, "six" (the Chinese character luk, "six" being given as its equivalent), are not given in the Dictionnaire Coreen Francais, nor do they appear to be used in Korea except in connection with this game. Dr. Daniel G. Brinton, who has kindly compared them, tells me that the first three have rather close analogies with the Ural-Altaic stock. The "four" and perhaps the "five" seem connected with the Samoyed. [Here Culin gives a table.] It is clearly apparent that these terms are numerals, and they point very directly to the source of the game. A game similar to Nyout, played with staves, is recorded to have existed in China in the third century of our era. It was then regarded as a foreign and non-Chinese game, which agrees with the linguistic evidence furnished by the terms used in Nyout.
 * Wikipedians tend not to like long quotes, but this strikes me as key to the article, perhaps even including the table I omitted in the quote. There is also a long footnote explaining the Chinese character used to write Nyout in Korean. Perhaps someone would like to work this info in?Phil wink (talk) 22:59, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
 * To clarify my statement above, I meant that the terms are correct. But indeed, the "translations" ("pigs, dogs, sheep...") appear to be subsequent folk etymologies (do Koreans like Pink Floyd?), since the actual terms are neither Korean nor Chinese. (By the way, I don't know the languages I'm talking about; I'm just basing these statements on my reading of Culin.) Phil wink (talk) 02:30, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Yut Fortune
JP: In this section, it is mentioned that Yut fortune telling works by generating one fortune out of a possible 64. I wonder if this is simply an alternate way of generating I Ching fortunes, which are also of Asian origin (from ancient China), also have 64 combinations, and were also originally generating by throwing or separating sticks? (Though in the I Ching's case it was yarrow stalks, and there were more of them.) I can't verify because the reference is broken and I don't speak Korean anyway. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.109.53.22 (talk) 07:18, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

External links modified
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Probability
I think an obvious question to ask (for a mathematically or game theory inclined person) is, what is the probability for a yut stick to fall "up" resp. "over". According to, the probability of "over" is typically 60%, but later in the same article, a value of 54% is also mentioned. I think the probability will be quite sensitive to irregularituies in the semi-cylindrical shape of the stick (and to how it is thrown), but it seems one could at least say that "up" is slightly more probable than "over". However, the source may not be up to standards. Can anyone find better sources (perhaps better values)? Nø (talk) 07:25, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 2 January 2024

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover)  αvírαm  | (tαlk) 13:51, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Yut → Yunnori – Yut is just the sticks; the article is discussing the boardgame (yutnori), so shouldn't it be yutnori? toobigtokale (talk) 01:03, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

 * Ah shoot, it should be "Yunnori" in revised romanization. For whoever closes this discussion, please use "Yunnori" instead of "Yutnori".
 * Also, as additional evidence, note that the kowiki version of this article is Yunnori and not Yut. toobigtokale (talk) 11:56, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

 * Support Yunnori to refer to the game as a whole, per all of the reasoning above. Dekimasu よ! 05:22, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi Aviram7, can you take another look at the above? It seems like it should be possible to move the page along to Yunnori. Best, Dekimasu よ! 13:06, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

 * Hi, It could be possible, but The requester of following request move ; they suggested move Yut → Yutnori, sorry but I've move according to requester but If you can say, so, I move this page from to Yunnori after following move closed? 😊 αvírαm  | (tαlk) 13:25, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Aviram7, if you look at the second comment made by the requester above, Toobigtokale realized that Yunnori was more appropriate before anyone else had participated in the discussion. I agreed with him that Yunnori would be best, so all of the participants agreed with the title Yunnori before the discussion ended. Therefore, it should be possible for you to adjust the close to move the page to Yunnori. Can you go ahead and make the additional move? Best, Dekimasu よ! 13:37, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
 * , ✅ I've moved to right title as you suggested on the following discussion.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

title: Talk:Yunnori