text:
Talk:Gush Shalom

(Untiled)
''Gush Shalom is a radical leftist movement, and its classification as a peace movement is highly disputed. Uri Avneri, the Gush Shalom leader and a former journalist, was among the first to meet and nagotiate with PLO leader Yasser Arafat. Although Gush Shalom earned itself respect in Europe, it is regarded by most Israelis as a pro-Palestinian movement who supports violence and terrorism against Israelis. The movement itself hasn't been involved in direct terrorism but did publish several articles praising Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians.''

This is a set of pretty serious charges that require some kind of external references, preferably primary sources. The last sentence, especially, includes a serious charge that requires a primary source. If it can't be backed up, it should be deleted.

 * List of articles, with links, was added. MathKnight 14:04, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * There is no evidence presented to back up these rather grave allegations unless it is contained in the Hebrew links. If something credible and capable of being read by English-speakers isn't available the allegations should be deleted.194.165.173.5 03:07, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * Since Avneri operates in Hebrew-speaking society, it is natural he will write many articles in Hebrew. MathKnight 21:05, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

(Untitled 2)
elpincha 27 Oct 2004: I just removed this:

 * The movement itself hasn't been involved in direct terrorism but did publish several articles praising Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians.

Until somebody brings evidence to the contrary, the removed statement is false. (BTW: I did read the Hebrew articles, and did not find such praise. I understand that some people can interpret those as praise for terrorist attacks, but it just ain't written there.)

Curious about the source for this line
"it is regarded by most Israelis as a pro-Palestinian movement who supports violence and terrorism against Israelis."

is this based on a poll or something?

settlements - PC?
Guy, why do you insist on bringing the argument about how these communities should be called into this article about Gush-Shalom? "Settlements" is shorter, it is a well-known phrase to describe this controversial phenomenon, their legal status even in Israel is not settled, and it is by no means derogatory, as you can see in these communities' web-pages where they describe themselves as "settlements". Furthermore, none of them are "large towns", Ariel is less than 20,000, and most of them are a few houndred families each, at most. So could you please explain to me why you insist on reverting the concise description "settlements" to your phrase, in this article which is hardly the place for such arguments? And while you're at it, why don't you change the title of the original Israeli settlement article, if it's so important? --Doron 10:52, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It is a work in progress. I am working on a simple fact that these communities have existed their for over 35 years. At some point they have to cease being "settlements" and become established communities. At the same time, the term settlement has become a pejorative, right after the Oslo Accords and Rabin's assassination. As for Ariel, it is still a town, the Gush Etzion Block is well populated and so is Ma'aleh Adumim. If they are not towns, then they are communities. Massachussets was a settlement when it had a couple of mules and huts, some times later it became a town, small, but a town or a community. Would you refer to San Francisco a settlement? I dont think so, at some point after time passed it became a town and later a city. I am attempting to wipe the term settlement out of present vocabulary as it relates to most communities in Judea and Samaria. Those which are legitimate current settlements are those with a couple of trailers and wooden huts.

Guy Montag 21:34, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * I wish you all the luck with your crusade, but this article is hardly the place. "Settlement" is the term that is widely used (and in wikipedia in particular) and requires no explanation. Once you establish your alternative politically-correct term, it is only logical that all other articles should be changed accordingly, but you should start with the Israeli settlement article. Until then, leave this article as it is. Wikipedia allows you to have a link label different from the title of the article it links to, for the purpose of easy embedding in the text, not for the purpose of inventing new names. If the label is "communities and outposts", the title of the article ought to be "communities and outposts in the Israeli-Palestinian disputed territories" or something of the sort, so first establish your alternative to the concise "settlements". In a general discussion on "settlements", calling them cummunities is fine once it is established that the "settlements" are the subject, but this is the only place where "settlements" are mentioned, so the familiar term should be used. I'm changing it back, and we can have a thorough discussion on this in the Israeli settlement discussion page.--Doron 07:41, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

They can cease being "settlements" and become established communities when the IDF is no longer required to protect the settlements from the population displaced to build them.

My edits...
I removed the "left wing" attribute to Gush Shalom, since the term has little to do with their activities and reads like a possible non-neutral perjorative term. I also added the relavant UN resolutions and mentioned the Fouth Geneva Convention, so that it is understood from what established foundation Gush Shalom make's it's appeals. Note that there should no controversy over the legal status of Israel's occupation of the West Bank, as a member of the UN, Israel is in ongoing violation of international law under Resolution 242.
 * The previous version was NPOV. Gush Shalom's interpretation of which UN resolutions are relevant and apply are just that, interpretations, not the final word. Jayjg (talk) 23:02, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Gush Shalom article fails to be encyclopaedic
Reading this article for the first time, it comes across as "propagandised" and poor, the first two paragraphs in particular. Gush-Shalom is a well-established anti-government organisation, started by a well-informed source, and does not deserve to be treated in this fashion. The current version screams "POV". PalestineRemembered 12:23, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Left-wing
Tagged this as dubious. It is unsourced and I doubt whether a group independent of any political party and with a declared aim of peace would align itself in this way. Itsmejudith (talk) 12:37, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I've modified the lead. I see several other references to GS being "left-wing" pop up in Google, but most are the typocal advocacy sites. The JP has also twice described it as one of "thirteen left-wing organisations." In fact, the only place it appears with that qualifier is the JP.
 * The more encyclopaedic discussion would be an analysis of GS' membership, and what proportion are Labor, and what proportion are Meretz, and whether they wish to distinguish themselves from those parties' drifts to the centre. -- Relata refero (disp.) 14:21, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Rather than left-wing, (which is a tag), I think it could be more interesting to give their different pov's concerning the I/P conflict.
 * As far as I know, the are for 1 state and not 2 ones but I am not sure. This is not in the article.
 * Hmmm. It seems not. This is strange. Would have they modified their mind ?
 * ... Ceedjee (talk) 15:20, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * GS / Avnery have always been strongly for 2 state. In the 60s-early 70s, the PLO even called the 2-state solution "Avneryism".John Z (talk) 20:42, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes. But Avneri has only recently joined Gush Shalom. Before, I am quite sure they were for 1-state and I think there are still members who argue for that solution.
 * (but all this is what I remember - we should need external sources).
 * Regards, Ceedjee (talk) 06:16, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I think I am wrong bec. at least since 2001 they militate for 2 states : . Ceedjee (talk) 06:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

 * you have now ynetnew and Jerusalem post as source as well as Islam on line.Oren.tal (talk) 09:23, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I have added now more source from the telegraph and other news website.Oren.tal (talk) 09:29, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * there are 16 reliable source for  this liable far more than enough.Needless to mention that everyone that know little about Israeli politics know that they are far left.Oren.tal (talk) 10:37, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Peace group vs. "far left" group
Oren, even the sources you've piled up say that Gush Shalom is a peace group. Its primary focus is peace, not left-wing politics. Please stop trawling the internet for sites that use the words "left wing" and "Gush Shalom". The article already says that they're described as left-wing. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 02:44, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

 * The trouble with "left wing" in the lead of this article is that it adds nothing. In Israel, all peace groups are considered left wing.  Can you name a right-wing Israeli peace group? I can't.

 * I suggest that if you want to use the words "left wing" in this article, you save them for Uri Avnery, who is indubitably left-wing, by his own definition. --Ravpapa (talk) 06:38, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I have no problem with the current version which states at the end of the lead paragraph that "it has been described as left-wing", although I'd make a small change to "it has been described as left-wing and (even) extreme-left". In Israel everyone knows that Gush Shalom is extreme-left (i.e. more left-wing than other left-wing groups like B'Tselem); this should be in the lead because it's a very basic and necessary description for this group, but should not get undue weight (i.e. more than a short sentence in the lead). -- Ynhockey (Talk) 11:13, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * well we can write that it is describe by itself as peace organization if we go that line.Anyway there are more than enough reliable sources that support the claim that it is left wing organization and it is.Oren.tal (talk)

 * peace group can be left wing group and I have 16 sources that say it is left wing group it is more than enough.Oren.tal (talk) 14:32, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well now it has gone from unsourced to 16 sources, including a report from a minor Australian source in 1998. I would be OK with "has been described as left-wing by the Jerusalem Post", plus two refs. Not in the lead, in the body of the article, and not mid-sentence. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:21, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It is not only the Jerusalem post but also the |British telegraph and it is left wing.Oren.tal (talk) 12:54, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Oren, why do you have such a problem respecting consensus? Everybody but you agrees that saying they are a left-wing organization in the first sentence isn't appropriate. Please stop reverting. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 20:30, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You are wrong and you know that.Many people mentioned them as left wing in the first line and you reverted them.The fact is that by looking history you can see that most people support them to be labeled as left wing and in any case there are reliable source about this.Nobody deny the reliable sources so there is nothing to debate about.Oren.tal (talk) 20:50, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

 * No Oren. You are the only person who insists on putting "left wing" in the first sentence, and piling on the references. Nobody else agrees with you. Nobody. Please respect the consensus and stop reverting. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 20:54, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well lets see if I am the only person.
 * Until April 28, 2008 it was mentioned as left wing.Then it was removed for the lack of reliable source.But now we do have reliable sources.
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gush_Shalom&diff=208744883&oldid=208739296

 * There is nothing to debate about this issue.There are reliable sources and most people support "left wing" in the first line as you can see in the history.Oren.tal (talk) 20:59, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Caution
I would advise caution in quoting Uri Dan and Isi Liebler. Both are considered very right-wing columnists. If you want to quote them, you should mention this. --Ravpapa (talk) 21:00, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

 * They are to the right, but not radical right. To me there is a problem with many WP articles about individuals, or groups, in Israel are considered political fringe there, but with little indication of that in their WP articles. Gush Shalom is such a group on the left. On the right, Moshe Levinger comes to mind. Uri Dan and Isi Liebler are on the political right, but certainly not regarded as fringe. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 22:02, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

POV problems
The article, as it now is, fails to convey the extent to which, within Israel, Gush Shalom is a fringe political group. Because of that, there is a serious problem with WP:NPOV. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 13:56, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Odd -- I thought this was the point of adding Dan and Liebler. How many different right-wing denunciations would it take to satisfy you?  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 15:10, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

 * You answer underlines the problem: How many different right-wing denunciations would it take to satisfy you? Really? As though anyone who disagrees with Gush Shalom is by definition "right-wing". In fact Gush Shalom has virtually zero support in Israel from any group aside from the minuscule Maki, and Ratz. Once again, the article obscures the situation that Gush Slalom is a minuscule fringe political group. The majority of Israeli's tend to consider them as insane. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 15:29, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you have any other sources from the Israeli mainstream to show this? From the mainstream left in particular or from Ha'aretz? Itsmejudith (talk) 16:26, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

 * A search in Ha'aretz finds only two mentions of Gush Shalom. One has something to do with a European boycott of an Israeli water bottling plant; and the other laments that Israelis did not take the peace movement seriously, and only mentions the name of Gush Shalom without any discussion of the group. It is marginal. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 12:45, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

 * You didn't look very hard, did you. A google news search here turns up two mentions of Gush Shalom in Ha'aretz just in the last month.  Honestly...  Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:01, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

 * The source I just added is a self testimony by Avneri on how they are rejected by left wing groups as overly leftist.  Jaakobou Chalk Talk  17:41, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * indeed the fact that it is self describe is more than enough.I don't see where is the POV unless every article about left wing organization is POV.Oren.tal (talk) 10:30, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Broke it into sections
I broke the article into sections and hope that everyone thinks it is an improvement. It makes it easier (for me at least) to see whether we are making the best use of all the sources we have, and to check that we are reflecting both the pro and anti viewpoints accurately. Itsmejudith (talk) 12:30, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with the breaking.You should not, however, remove the "left wing".Oren.tal (talk) 13:40, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think anyone suggested to remove it after the self-description was added to the references. Let's move on to other areas where the article could be improved.  Jaakobou Chalk Talk  13:54, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I didn't remove "left-wing", but put it later in the article, and I kept in Jaakobou's references. Rather than taking anything out, I'd like to see more added about the group's political views. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:33, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It is enough important to be mention in the first line.Oren.tal (talk) 14:40, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Oren tal, your restorations are problematic in purely stylistic terms. We should not be using headers in a footnote. Also, I don't think it is useful to include a quote in both Hebrew and English. This is the English-language Wikipedia. Each reference should be included in its own, as I did. Do you mind if I revert? I'm guessing that English is not your first or best language and you will probably want people who speak it better than you to take the lead. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:43, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I do mind if you revert.First if you check it you will see that there are many sources in English.As for the Hebrew it is about Israeli organization.In any case the Hebrew source was not added by me.but the first "source" is actually including list of sources from the media al of them in English.Oren.tal (talk) 16:13, 15 December 2008 (UTC)Organize the source as much as you want as long as it is mention in the first line.Oren.tal (talk) 16:14, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I will revert for the sake of the referencing style. What should be in the lede is a separate discussion. Don't forget: we don't usually need references in the lede because it summarises info that should be detailed in the article body. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:19, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If that the case then just remove the reference.In any case it should be in the lead as it is part of the description of the group just as it is peace activist.It is NOT more peace than left wing.Oren.tal (talk) 16:28, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Do we have a source to say that it is more "left-wing" than "peace"? The lede should stick to the bare facts. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:46, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment: The Hebrew original of the translation should be given in the reference section per Wikipedia policy for verifiability purposes. Please fix it. Cheers,  Jaakobou Chalk Talk  16:55, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'll fix it. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:46, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks.
 * I hope that if someone calls the quote undue or something like that, it will be supported that this was originally used to sort out a consensus and verify the left-wing status of the group and that the reference would not vanish.
 * Cheers,  Jaakobou Chalk Talk  19:38, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know whether I will defend its retention it or not. I will read the arguments on both sides. I think there is more that we could say about the stance using sources like JP and Ha'aretz. (Letting the sources speak for themselves.) I've been uneasy from the start about applying the "left-wing" epithet, because I've seen in relation to CND and other parts of the UK peace movement how hotly the tag has been disputed. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:49, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

POV tag
The article is not yet complete and certainly there are some neutrality issues but I'm not sure the POV tag is necessary at this point in time. Thoughts/suggestions?  Jaakobou Chalk Talk  19:46, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

 * I tagged the article because I thought there was nothing to convey that, within Israel, Gush Shalom is considered a fringe political group. Perhaps that is now corrected. I will trust your judgment, and will remove the tag. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 19:55, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

 * There is certainly room to add some of their fringe activity (e.g. a eulogy for Arafat in Haaretz) and some more criticism against them, but the tag itself is not necessary since the article is not that bad that it demands a stamp of disapproval.  Jaakobou Chalk Talk  20:03, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

 * I hope we will remember that the encyclopedia must take a world view. My impression is that the reputation of Gush Shalom may be higher abroad than in Israel itself. That is notable and worth adding to the article if we can find appropriate sources. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:11, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

 * If we have sources to that extent, I have no objection to it being noted as well. However, best I'm aware they do their activism mainly in Israel.  Jaakobou Chalk Talk  11:09, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Wiki-weasel terms
I'm not sure on where we're going to describe regular journalists as politically affiliated. I'd hate to compare the situation to one where I've had an argument with Tiamut about something far worse.  Jaakobou Chalk Talk  18:48, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

 * Um... you just did. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 23:24, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

If you want to include comments that are prima facie derogatory, you have to attribute them accurately. The fact is that you will never find Gush Shalom described as extremist in Haaretz. Uri Dan, as you probably know, was not always a journalist - he was an associate and for a time a spokesman for Sharon. Likewise, the Jerusalem Post has in the last 20 years supported policies associated with right-wing governments in Israel, both in its editorial policy and in its reporting.

My own feeling is that applying labels to organizations like you have done here, especially in the lead, is simply poor writing. Say what their positions are and let the reader draw his own conclusions. If the article has a "Criticisms" section, as this one does, it is perfectly appropriate to include epithets that have been used by the organization's opponents, as long as you make clear the political associations of those opponents. After all, someone has said something nasty about every political action group in Israel. Quoting those things doesn't make for very interesting or informative reading. --Ravpapa (talk) 07:30, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

 * Am I reading the recent edit in correctly, or is the text really saying "The prestigious Haaretz newspaper"?  Jaakobou Chalk Talk  11:12, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Haaretz is described as "prestigious" not only by its fans, but also by its critics, and even by the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Eg:
 * "Haaretz, the most prestigious Israeli newspaper" Aijaz Ahmad, Frontline, Vol 19, Issuee 4.
 * "Israel's most prestigious daily, Ha'aretz", Noam Chomsky, Al Ahram 2 November 2000.
 * "The wretched story began with the publication last December of a letter in Israel’s prestigious ‘Haaretz’ by a Dr.Israel Shahak", Immanuel Jakobovits, Tradition, Summer 1966
 * " critic Michael Ohad of the prestigious daily Haaretz" Lili Eylon, Israel Magazine-on-web, December 1997
 * " such prestigious papers as Ha’aretz, Globes, The Jerusalem Post, the Washington Times, and other journals and magazines", Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies 27 July 2001 RolandR 14:31, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

 * Point accepted. I have removed the prestigious. --Ravpapa (talk) 15:10, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

 * I don't understand. I provide half-a-dozen examples (and there are scores more) from different reliable sources to show that both supporters and opponents describe Haaretz as "prestigious", so you remove the term? Please explain. RolandR 16:33, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

 * Its fairly simple really and I'll put it in layman's terms: We don't hype the sources.  Jaakobou Chalk Talk  16:47, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

The fact that the sentence doesn't say that Haaretz is prestigious doesn't mean it isn't prestigious. It is just as prestigious, whether we say so or not. On the other hand, why piss people off needlessly?

 * Understood; I was just responding to Jaakobou's disingenuous incredulity at the use of the term. RolandR 17:11, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I think this series of edits has been an object lesson in the folly of the insidious smear. The attempt to paint Gush Shalom as a bunch of wild-eyed lunatics has been turned around - they now look like earnest seekers of peace. Alas, there is apparently no middle ground. There will never be a version of this article that everyone will be happy with.

On the other hand, I think we can all agree that your signature is charming. --Ravpapa (talk) 16:54, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

 * Foul! If I can't say prestigious, you can't say mainstream. --Ravpapa (talk) 17:03, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Amnesty International
I'm not seeing the stated support by Amnesty International in the source - a clarification or a better citation is needed please.  Jaakobou Chalk Talk  17:27, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Words to avoid
I'm not liking the recent insertion of "some" instead of "mainstream". The Ynet source is not a "column" and it is the biggest newspaper in Israel. Both Haaretz and Ynet are mainstream media - do I need to add more Israeli mainstream media or is there something else I'm missing? Please note that I already written it in a conservative manner, using the words "on occasion" in the right context of controversial events such as the Gaza "freedom" boats.  Jaakobou Chalk Talk  17:39, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

 * It was you who said we don't hype the sources. If you can say mainstream, I can say prestigious.

 * You have to say some. "A few" would probably be even more accurate. After all, there are many more columnists who have not called Gush Shalom extreme than have. Just writing "columnists" suggests that "extreme" is a kind of knee-jerk adjective that writers always add every time they refer to Gush Shalom - kind of like the way foreign reporters always add the word "prestigious" before Haaretz.

 * And no you don't need to add more Israeli mainstream media and yes, there is something else you are missing. It is time to end this pretty ridiculous skirmish over how good or bad Gush Shalom is. Many people consider Gush Shalom to be a bunch of wild-eyed looneys. Many other people consider Gush Shalom to be champions of peace. So let's stop loading up the lead of this article with unnecessary quotes and examples, and simply say that Gush Shalom is controversial. Because for every quote you add showing how far out they are, I will add a quote showing how sane and good-intentioned they are. --Ravpapa (talk) 20:53, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

 * Also, please read your sources more carefully. Liebler does not suggest that Gush Shalom created Women in Black or Mothers against the War. He only associates Gush Shalom with the tactic of using emotional appeals like that. In fact, Gush Shalom did not create either of those organizations. --Ravpapa (talk) 21:05, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

 * I'm fairly certain that there's no comparison between the two descriptives -- i.e. "prestigious" (honorary term) and "mainstream" (clarification term) -- and that the latter is preferable here to "some". More so when considering that Yediot Ahronoth and Haaretz (and others) published it.
 * p.s. just to clarify, we're not trying to bulk up the lead, but I wouldn't mind using better sources than the one you've picked out for the praise. In that respect, your source is not Israeli and one should be added if that text is to stay on the page.
 * Warm regards,  Jaakobou Chalk Talk  04:18, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

 * I've gone ahead by implementing the fix in this issue. Also, we can't say "On the other hand, Israeli and international human rights groups have lauded the organization." without proper secondary sources. I've no general objection to this addition if we have some proper sourcing to it. I wouldn't want the text to be overarching in comparison to the actual groups involved in the praise.
 * Warm regards,  Jaakobou Chalk Talk  23:38, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Not acceptable
Your edits are opinionated and not acceptable. Out of dozens if not hundreds of references to Gush Shalom in the Israeli press over the last few years, you have selected four that show a clear point of view - two by columnists whose extreme right-wing views are well-known, one of whom also served as a spokesman for the right-wing government of Ariel Sharon. Yet you refuse to allow the political affiliations of this spokesman to be mentioned. You have ignored the dozens of references where Gush Shalom is not referred to as extremist, and you have deleted from the lead mention of the fact that numerous international human rights organizations - not only AFSC - have singled out Gush Shalom and its leader, Uri Avnery, for praise.

You have also cited in the lead one action by Gush Shalom, ignoring many others, without providing any reference to this action in the body of the article, and writing it in the lead in an imflammatory manner.

It is precisely this kind of writing that has given Wikipedia such a bad name in its coverage of Middle East issues. I should point out that I am personally not a supporter of Gush Shalom, in fact, disagree with many of their positions. But this attempt on your part to paint them as a band of looneys is unacceptable. You should be aware that a sizable portion of the Israeli population is in agreement with the overall position of Gush Shalom, including at least two political parties and the liberal wings of at least two others, which comprise more than 10 percent of the Knesset seats. So, while these views may not be mainstream, they are certainly not outside the wider range of legitimate Israeli political views.

Since you insist on including slanted quotes in the lead, I suggest we rewrite the lead as follows:

Gush Shalom (Hebrew: גוש שלום, lit. The Peace Bloc [Coalition]) is an Israeli peace activism group founded and led by former Irgun and Knesset Member and journalist, Uri Avnery, in 1993. In dozens of references to the organization in the Israeli press, it has been referred to as "an Israeli peace organization" <!ref> "Peace group: Ban of foreign aid to NGOs will harm hospitals, universities" Haaretz, 4/8/2009, and "Leftist"; or without any descriptive term<!ref> Haaretz Aug. 4, 2009, Jerusalem Post Sep 13, 2009, NRG, 23/3/2009, Haaretz, April 4, 1995, and many others. One report called it "radical" and another called it "extreme"<!ref>. Haaretz, 2006. Translation: Large organized bodies of Arabs in Israel - among them Hadash and Balad - arrive in masses from the Galilee to the protest in Tal-Aviv in the middle of a war, also that the occasion was joined by the left wing of the Zionist left - such as pastime Meretz chairman Shulamit Aloni and Galia Golan. This, alongside the radical left of Gush Shalom, the refusal movement Yesh Gvul, the anarchists, women's coalition for peace, Ta'ayosh and more. - Original:גופים מאורגנים גדולים של הערבים בישראל - בהם חד"ש ובל"ד - מגיעים בהמוניהם מן הגליל להפגנה בתל אביב בעיצומה של מלחמה, אלא שלמעמד חבר האגף השמאלי של השמאל הציוני - כמו יו"ר מרצ בעבר, שולמית אלוני וגליה גולן. זאת, לצד השמאל הרדיקלי של גוש שלום, תנועת הסרבנות "יש גבול", האנרכיסטים, קואליציית נשים לשלום, תעאיוש ועוד. <!ref>, Yediot Ahronoth, 21.11.2009. Translation: The extreme left wing movement Gush Shalom - Original: תנועת השמאל הקיצוני גוש שלום . At least three international organizations (Amnesty, AFSC, Right Livelihood) have singled out Gush Shalom for its work promoting peace and human rights. The United Nations has called on its members to give expert testimony to panels <!ref>UNITED NATIONS INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE OF CIVIL SOCIETY IN SUPPORT OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, September 2004.

Alternatively, we can, as I earlier suggested, take out all the inflammatory quotes and details from the lead, and simply note that the organization is controversial.

Regards, --Ravpapa (talk) 12:29, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

 * Heyo Ravpapa,
 * I'l try and explain why your suggestion doesn't work for me. I hope we can work this issue out though in a manner acceptable to us both without a need for external third opinions. In general, the first line already mentions that they are "an Israeli peace organization" and there is no need to repeat that in the second one. Also, it really doesn't strike me as encyclopedic to put down "without any descriptive term" or "One report called it" in the lead of any wikipedia article. I tried explaining that the "radical" terminology (and sometimes harsher words) are coming from the biggest newspapers in Israel, and not only in opinion columns. On that same note, I agree that it is sometimes lauded as a mainstream peace movement (though not so much in recent years) and that several sources probably gave them good props. I have no objection to a conservative mention of this issue as well. I thought I've shown that when I hadn't objected to a lead mention of the American source. You have to understand that the lead does need to mention in that they have been mentioned as a fringe group in several extreme contexts. Even left wing Meretz, for example, supported Israeli entrance to Gaza in the wake of Hamas declaring war on the Israeli south and the vast majority of left wing Israeli groups are against anything that is meant to help Hamas as long as Gilad Shalit is held hostage by them. I'm not nitpicking at sources at all and your objection, while reasonable, seems to be coming out of a preconception that Gush Shalom is not a marginal group in the Israeli left. I ask you to give a look to Avnery's own quote on where they stance politically (per ""Shalom Achshav" is afraid of "Gush Shalom" and the Arab parties."). That said, I'm open to hear suggestions and to consider them as respectfully as possible. I think that, at this point, we're missing a few references on groups that support Gush Shalom.
 * p.s. I'm assuming all the prelude is in my honor and I'm thinking that we can do without personal attacks and allegations. Certainly, anything I've written was indeed backup up by references and you got caught up in your own words saying I haven't provided any references.
 * Warm regards,  Jaakobou Chalk Talk  15:46, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

 * Side note - please review the text. I really don't think its as bad or smearing as you see it to be.
 * "The left-wing organization has been involved in several Israeli controversies, such as sending a “Relief Convoy to Gaza” while it is under Hamas administration, and has elicited the mainstream Israeli media to describe it, on occasion, as 'radical' and 'extreme.'[1][2] The American Friends Service Committee has described the group as 'one of Israel’s most influential peace organizations.'"
 * The article also starts by clearly describing them as:
 * "is an Israeli peace activism group"
 * Warm regards,  Jaakobou <sup style="color:#1F860E;">Chalk Talk  15:51, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Reading your response makes me think that perhaps the problem is one of insensitivity to the nuances of the English language. The words "fringe group", "extreme" and "extremist" are derogatory terms. Gush Shalom's opponents would call it a fringe group or extremist, but Gush Shalom or its supporters would never use those words. It is not the place of the Wikipedia to apply epithets to organizations, even when those epithets have appeared in sources we consider reliable.

I am not suggesting that the lead ignore the fact - acknowledged and even publicized by Gush Shalom itself - that the organization advocates positions that are often more radical than those of other peace groups. I am simply insisting that we make that statement in a way that does not reveal our own personal opinions of Gush Shalom and its place in the Israeli political landscape. --Ravpapa (talk) 18:38, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
 * For interest Jaakobou, when I see a group or a person being described as 'left wing' I wonder what it means and what it's referring to specifically. It's not very informative by itself. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> Sean.hoyland  - talk 19:37, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

 * Heyo Ravpapa and Sean,
 * You both make reasonable points, I agree. I'm thinking that I've made some effort into addressing the point Sean raised by adding a mention of the Gaza/Hamas boat issue - which gives some measure to how far they are willing to go to the "left". I also think that there might be a way around the "on occasion called radical/extremist" phrasing but I don't yet have a good way of presenting their sometimes marginal positions. Ravpapa, I'd be happy to hear more suggestions and I'll try to think about it further and possibly make one or two of my own. I'm guessing there is a more encyclopedic way of dealing with their marginalization and I'll keep an open mind to good suggestions.
 * Warm regards,  Jaakobou <sup style="color:#1F860E;">Chalk Talk  13:02, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Gush Shalom (Hebrew: גוש שלום, lit. The Peace Bloc [Coalition]) is an Israeli peace group. Founded and led by Uri Avnery, a former Knesset member and journalist known for his left-wing views, the organization is one of the most militant of the Israeli peace organizations, adopting positions unpopular in Israel and often criticizing other left-wing organizations for being too moderate. As a result, Gush Shalom has been frequently villified by moderate and conservative columnists in Israel, and praised by some local and international organizations that oppose Israeli policies in the West Bank and Gaza.

--Ravpapa (talk) 13:44, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

 * I see that an anonymous editor has reverted Jaakobou's edits to the lead. While I agree with this editor, I think it is a bad idea to make changes when the topic is still under discussion. So, Jaakobou, if you revert him back, I won't object.

 * Of course, I would prefer that you look at my alternate lead, and express an opinion. --Ravpapa (talk) 14:12, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

 * Heyo Ravpapa,
 * I don't know... "the most militant of the Israeli peace organizations" seems harsher than the 'described on occasion, in the context of controversial occurrences as 'radical' '. I also don't like that its repeated in the second sentence with the same words (i.e. 'most militant'). The word 'villified'[sic] has no place in the lead either. It takes a stance that they were misrepresented when, best I'm aware, they weren't. I apologize for not coming up with anything myself yet, but real life has been keeping me a little busy. I'm still thinking about an alternative to my initial phrasing. Would you be interested in inviting an external English professional so we can get something with English on a higher level than yours or mine?
 * Warm regards,  Jaakobou <sup style="color:#1F860E;">Chalk Talk  04:05, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Edit request: "The Haaretz newspaper subsidizes..."
In the sentence "The Haaretz newspaper subsidizes a weekly editorial statement by Gush Shalom in its weekend edition.", change "subsidizes" to "publishes", or some such language that makes some sort of sense in this context. (There's no source for this, so it's not at all clear if the choice of words is seeking to tsk-tsk at Haaretz for merely carrying such opinion pieces, or if it's commenting on payment for, well, content.) 84.203.42.206 (talk) 19:22, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Jackmcbarn (talk) 20:24, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

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Website gush-shalom.org was offline temporarily – issue completed
Is anybody able to comment on the status of that website? Is there a replacement? For how long has is been like that? --johayek (talk) 16:31, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I have no trouble opening the link. Perhaps it was just a temporary blip? RolandR (talk) 17:09, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * You are right, was only a temporary blip. Sorry for the noise. I am happy to get this section removed at any time. --johayek (talk) 15:24, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Gush Shalom


text:
Cedar Rapids RoughRiders

The Cedar Rapids RoughRiders are a Tier I junior ice hockey team playing in the United States Hockey League (USHL). Before moving to Cedar Rapids, Iowa, in 1999, the team was based in Mason City, where they were known as the North Iowa Huskies.

The RoughRiders' home ice is the ImOn Ice Arena also known as The Stable.

History
The North Iowa Huskies relocated to Cedar Rapids in 1999. The RoughRiders' new name was chosen in a name-the-team contest won by a local teacher at Roosevelt Middle School in Cedar Rapids as it was the school's mascot.

In the 2002–03 season, the Roughriders finished in second place in the East Division with a 27–26–7 record. In the quarterfinals of the playoffs, the Roughriders beat the Topeka ScareCrows 3-games-to-1 before being swept 3–0 by the Lincoln Stars. After another second place division finish in 2003–04, the Roughriders lost in the quarterfinals to the Danville Wings.

In the 2004–05 season, the Roughriders finished first in the East Division with a record of 42 wins, 13 losses, and 5 overtime losses, for 89 points in the standings. They tied the West Division champions Omaha Lancers for the regular season overall title, the Anderson Cup. After three-game sweeps against the Indiana Ice and Chicago Steel, the Roughriders faced the Sioux City Musketeers winning game one of the Clark Cup finals 5–0, but lost game two, 1–2. After splitting games in Sioux City, the Roughriders finally defeated the Musketeers at home 4–1, to win their first Clark Cup championship. Goaltender Alex Stalock took most valuable player honors for the series. Future NHL players who played on this championship team included: Teddy Purcell, Justin Abdelkader, Alec Martinez, and Alex Stalock. In postseason awards, Roughriders' coach Mark Carlson was named Coach of the Year, and two Roughriders were named to the All-USHL second team.

The following season, the Roughriders won the Eastern Division regular season top playoff position based on goal differential against the Des Moines Buccaneers when both compiled 33 wins, 21 losses, and 6 overtime losses. The Roughriders also won the Corridor Cup against the Waterloo Black Hawks. In the playoffs, the Roughriders won the division semifinals against the Indiana Ice, 3-games-to-2, before bowing to eventual Clark Cup champion Des Moines in a three-game sweep. Roughriders' player Chad Costello finished on top of the league scoring race with 76 points, and teammate Teddy Purcell finished on top of the assists list with 52.

The 2006–07 season had the Roughriders finish in second place in the East Division with a 37–18–5 record. They defeated the Ohio Junior Blue Jackets in a four-game sweep bin the first round but lost both their round-robin games and were eliminated from the playoffs. In 2007–08, the Roughriders finished in third place in the East Division with a 33–22–5 record and were led in net with Brady Hjelle. The Roughriders were swept in the first round of the playoffs by the Waterloo Black Hawks three-games-to-none. The Roughriders would continue to lose in the first round of the playoffs over the next two seasons.

The Roughriders would again finish in first place in the Eastern Conference and capturing their second Anderson Cup during the 2010–11 season. In the playoffs, the Roughriders beat Muskegon in the quarterfinals 3-games-to-1, but lost in the conference semifinals to Green Bay in four games.

After the 2012–13 season, the Roughriders failed to qualify for the playoffs for the first time since their inaugural 1999–2000 season in Cedar Rapids. They finished in sixth place in the East Division with a 25–30–9 record for a total of 59 points. The Roughriders would bounce back, finishing in second place in the Eastern Conference in both the 2013–14 and 2014–15 seasons. However, they lost in the first round in the playoffs against the Dubuque Fighting Saints both seasons.

In the 2015–16 season, the Roughriders finished in first place in the league with a 40–15–5 record for a total of 85 points and capturing the franchise's third Anderson Cup. The Roughriders continued to struggle in the playoffs and lost to the Bloomington Thunder three-games-to-two in the first round. The Roughriders failed to qualify in the following 2016–17 season after a last place finish in the Eastern Conference.

In 2020 and the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic that curtailed the 2019–20 USHL season, the RoughRiders' home arena was damaged during the August 10 derecho, forcing the team to suspend operations for at least the 2020–21 season.

Roster
As of December 24, 2022.

 * }

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Cedar Rapids RoughRiders


text: Category:Syrian people

title: Category:Syrian people


text:
User talk:Gvd~enwiki

Welcome to the Wikipedia
Here are some links I thought useful:

 * Tutorial
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Feel free to ask me anything the links and talk pages don't answer. You can sign your name by typing 4 tildes, like this: ~.

Be Bold!

Sam [Spade] 19:44, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

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title: User talk:Gvd~enwiki


text:
Northumberland Ferries Limited

Northumberland Ferries Limited (NFL) is a ferry company operating in eastern Canada and headquartered in Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island. NFL is also the owner of subsidiary Bay Ferries Limited (which used to include the Bay Ferries Great Lakes brand) through its holding company.

Wood Islands–Caribou Ferry
NFL has operated the ferry service that carries the Trans-Canada Highway across the eastern part of the Northumberland Strait between Wood Islands, Prince Edward Island and Caribou, Nova Scotia since it was established in 1941 by the Government of Canada. This service is seasonal and only operates between the months of May and December on account of heavy sea ice and the lack of icebreaking ferries. NFL also operates the ferry terminals in Wood Islands and Caribou, both of which are owned by the Government of Canada.

Until 2022, NFL operated two vessels owned by the Government of Canada: Confederation built in 1993, and Holiday Island built in 1971. On July 22, 2022, Holiday Island suffered a fire causing ferry crossings to be cancelled. The MV Saaremaa 1 was loaned by the Société des traversiers du Québec as a temporary replacement, and began operations on August 20, 2022. While Confederation has been operated exclusively by NFL since she was built, Holiday Island joined NFL in 1997 after being declared surplus by previous operator Marine Atlantic (who operated the vessel between Cape Tormentine, New Brunswick and Borden-Carleton, Prince Edward Island) upon completion of the Confederation Bridge. Following the 2022 fire, Holiday Island was declared by Transport Canada to be beyond repair and would be scrapped. MV Saaremas 1 (loaned from Quebec) replaced Holiday Island in 2023 and by MV Fanafjord from 2024 until a replacement ship is completed.

Fares are paid only when exiting Prince Edward Island. The other major crossing of the Northumberland Strait, the Confederation Bridge from Prince Edward Island to New Brunswick, does likewise. Therefore, travellers entering the island on the ferry and exiting on the bridge or vice versa only need pay for one of the links.

The route has long been subsidized by Transport Canada; under the Ferry Services Contribution Program, the subsidy was most recently extended to 2027.

Caribou
This terminal serves Nova Scotia, and is located at the North end of Highway 106, a spur route of the Trans-Canada Highway. The terminal was constructed following the formation of Northumberland Ferries in 1941, and has received numerous upgrades since its construction. At the time of opening, the ferry was only accessible via Three Brooks Road. During the Canada-wide construction of the Trans-Canada Highway in the 1960s, Highway 106 was built providing the service with direct access to the national highway network. At this time, the terminal was expanded to handle more vehicle traffic due to the opening of the highway. A new terminal building was constructed in the early 1970s, and is still used today. The terminal also received a major upgrade including new docking infrastructure, terminal renovations, vehicle lanes and parking prior to the 1993 introduction of the high capacity MV Confederation, which is significantly larger than the other ferries running at the time.

Wood Islands
This terminal serves Prince Edward Island, and is located at the east end of Route 1, the Trans Canada Highway, and is adjacent to Wood Islands Provincial Park. Like the Caribou terminal, it was constructed following the formation of Northumberland ferries in 1941. During the early 1990s, the terminal received a major upgrade, including a completely new terminal building and docking infrastructure to accommodate MV Confederation. The terminal building received renovations in 2017 which saw the interior modernized, and includes televisions and new seating areas. The previous terminal still stands today, located on the opposite side of the vehicle lanes from the current terminal, and is used for storage.

Historical Fleet

 * MV Prince Nova (1941-1958), formerly MV Erie Isle where she operated on Lake Erie from Leamington, Ontario to Pelee Island. She was purchased by NFL and entered service in 1941, serving until 1958 with arrival of MV Lord Selkirk.  Laid up in Pictou where she caught fire and burnt at wharf later that year.  Scrapped on site.
 * SS Charles A. Dunning (1941, 1946–1964), formerly SS Sankaty where she operated in Massachusetts and Maine. She was purchased by NFL but before entering service was requisitioned for service in the Royal Canadian Navy for minelaying duty as HMCS Sankaty.  Returned to NFL in 1946, serving until 1964 with arrival of MV Prince Nova.  Sold for scrap but sank en route to Sydney.
 * MV Lord Selkirk (1958-1993), built for Government of Canada by Ferguson Industries, Pictou in 1958, serving until 1993 with arrival of MV Confederation. Sold to company in Panama. Used in Chiriqui Grande in Panama up to the moment the road was built. At present lying at anchor at Chiriqui Grande in poor condition (July 2014).
 * MV Confederation (1975-1993), built for Government of Canada by Halifax Shipyards, Halifax in 1962 where she was operated by CN from Borden, Prince Edward Island to Cape Tormentine, New Brunswick. Still owned by Government of Canada, she was transferred in 1975 to NFL from CN, serving until 1993 with arrival of MV Confederation.  Sold in 1994 to shipping line Groupe Desgagnés, Quebec, refitted and renamed Nordik Passeur for service from Riviere au Renard, Quebec to Havre St. Pierre, Quebec via Anticosti Island.  Mothballed in 1997, she was scrapped in Turkey in 2007.
 * MV Prince Nova (1963-1997), built for Government of Canada by Ferguson Industries, Pictou in 1963, serving until 1997 with arrival of MV Holiday Island. Sold to Cross Sound Ferry, New London in 1998, refitted and renamed the MV Susan Anne for service across Long Island Sound.  Currently operating.
 * MV Prince Edward (1972-1997), built for the Government of Canada by Ferguson Industries, Pictou in 1972, serving until 1997 with arrival of MV Holiday Island. Sold to Government of Newfoundland and Labrador in 1997, refitted and renamed the MV Captain Earl W. Windsor for service to Fogo Island and the Change Islands.

title: Northumberland Ferries Limited


text:
Henman Hill

Aorangi Terrace, commonly known as "Henman Hill", alongside a series of other nicknames, is a mostly grassed banked area in the grounds of the All England Lawn Tennis and Croquet Club where, during the annual Wimbledon tennis championships, crowds of people without show court tickets can watch the tennis matches live on a giant television screen at the side of No. 1 Court.

During television broadcasts of matches, cameras often sweep over the area, and sports journalists frequently conduct vox pops and interviews with members of the crowd. The terrace is also the main site for spectators to eat picnics.

Aorangi Terrace's nickname of Henman Hill emerged in the late 1990s when British supporters would congregate to watch the matches of Tim Henman at the site. The hill is frequently given other alliterative nicknames relating to British players competing at Wimbledon (Rusedski Ridge, Murray Mound, ' Heather Hill, Robson Green, Konta Contour, Raducanu Rise, Raducanu Ridge, Norrie Knoll etc.) but Henman Hill has remained the most commonly used phrase.

History
The terrace is named after Aorangi Park, the London New Zealand Rugby Club's grounds, which were on the site until 1981. Aorangi refers to the 'canonical' Māori description of Aoraki, the highest mountain in New Zealand, also known as Mount Cook. A new big screen was installed on the site following the construction of the new No. 1 Court in 1997. This coincided with the popularity of British player Tim Henman, and the site soon gained the nickname "Henman Hill", becoming a focal point for so-called Henmania. There is a "Henmans Hill" in Clifton, Bristol, England and anecdotally a supporter attending Wimbledon at the time was from that area and gave the hill that name, it being very similar to "Henman". British tennis followers would fanatically support four-time Wimbledon semi-finalist Henman as he played often dramatic matches in his many attempts to win the title.

Since Henman's retirement in 2007, the area has been colloquially named after other British tennis players. Most frequently, the site has been associated with Andy Murray, with names such as Murray Mound, Mount Murray, Murray Mountain and Murrayfield (in reference to the stadium in Edinburgh of the same name) all used.

, the name "Henman Hill" is still used by the BBC and other media in reference to the area. In 2009, Tim Henman stated on Friday Night with Jonathan Ross that he had agreed with Andy Murray it is still "Henman Hill". Henman joked that "[Murray] can have all those grand slams he's going to win but I'm keeping my hill."

Tennis pundits and tabloids have occasionally referred to the hill according to the names of a series of other British players who have participated at Wimbledon. During Greg Rusedski's matches, the area was sometimes called Rusedski Ridge; Robson Ridge or Robson Green have been used in reference to Laura Robson; plus Heather Hill and Konta Kop in reference to Heather Watson and Johanna Konta.

Most recently, the success of Emma Raducanu in the 2021 US Open led to speculation over the name Raducanu Ridge being used at Wimbledon 2022, in line with Rusedski Ridge and Robson Ridge. Other potential names for the site were suggested by the BBC, with Raducanu Rise coming out as the public's favourite.

For the 2022 Wimbledon tournament, Henman Hill was re-created by the AELTC in New York City, from 8 to 10 July. Dubbed the "Hill in New York", it was set up in Brooklyn Bridge Park at Pier 6, which also offered panoramic views of Lower Manhattan. Tickets were available on a walk-in basis up to a limit of 1,000 people per day.

title: Henman Hill


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wikimoz

Wikimoz was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE.

Non-notable; only 715 google hits. Discovered as a substub linking from List of search engines, which has been receiving a LOT of linkspam lately. --Ardonik 19:50, 2004 Aug 4 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like other '/delete' pages is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.
 * Comment: Funny, since it seems to want to replace google ;-) Kim Bruning 21:29, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete: Itsy bitsy teensy weensy one line saying what it is. Substub that isn't informative and acts as a placeholder for the web ref.  Delete for advertising, even if it's a non-commercial product. Geogre 00:31, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep -- 715 Google hits is certainly notable enough. Needs to be expanded, though. [[User:Mike Storm|Mike ∞ Storm]] 18:54, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Ambi 09:04, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Andris 10:39, Aug 6, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete ad. -- Cyrius|✎ 20:11, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * delete nonnotable --Jiang 10:50, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Substub and nonnotable. -- Stevietheman 05:59, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Del. Substub, not notable. --Jerzy(t) 06:39, 2004 Aug 9 (UTC)

title: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wikimoz


text:
Lance Parrish

Lance Michael Parrish (born June 15, 1956), nicknamed "Big Wheel", is an American former baseball catcher who played Major League Baseball (MLB) from 1977 through 1995. Born in Pennsylvania, Parrish grew up in Southern California and excelled in both baseball and football. He was drafted by the Detroit Tigers in 1974, and after four years in the minor leagues, he played for the Tigers for a decade from 1977 to 1986. He later played for the Philadelphia Phillies (1987–1988), California Angels (1989–1992), Seattle Mariners (1992), Cleveland Indians (1993), Pittsburgh Pirates (1994), and Toronto Blue Jays (1995).

Parrish helped lead the Tigers to the 1984 World Series championship, was selected as an All-Star eight times (1980, 1982–1986, 1988, 1990), and won six Silver Slugger Awards (1980, 1982–1984, 1986, 1990) and three Gold Glove Awards (1983–1985). Over his 19 MLB seasons, he compiled a .252 batting average with 324 home runs, and 1,070 runs batted in (RBIs). At the time of his retirement, he ranked fourth in major-league history in home runs by a catcher and seventh in games played at the position.

After his playing career, Parrish worked as a catching instructor, coach, manager, and broadcaster. He was a member of the Tigers' coaching staff from 1999 to 2001 and 2003 to 2005. He was the color commentator on Detroit Tigers television broadcasts in 2002. He was also a minor-league manager of the San Antonio Missions (1998), Ogden Raptors (2006), Great Lakes Loons (2007), Erie SeaWolves (2014–2017), and West Michigan Whitecaps (2018–2019).

Early years
Parrish was born in 1956 in Clairton, Pennsylvania, a Pittsburgh suburb. At age six, Parrish moved with his family to Southern California. He grew up in Walnut in eastern Los Angeles County. His father was a deputy sheriff with the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department. Parrish attended Walnut High School where he was the regular catcher for the baseball team as a freshman and sophomore, and then played several positions (including games as a pitcher) as a junior and senior. Parrish also played for Walnut's football and basketball teams. In football, he received all-conference honors at three different positions (quarterback, defensive back, and kicker) and was offered a scholarship to play college football for the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA).

Minor leagues (1974–1976)
Parrish was drafted at age 17 by the Detroit Tigers in the first round (16th overall pick) of the 1974 Major League Baseball Draft. The Tigers paid him a $67,000 bonus that persuaded him to abandon a letter of intent to play college football for UCLA.

Parrish began his professional career in 1974 as a third baseman for the Bristol Tigers, Detroit's rookie team in the Appalachian League. Parrish compiled a .213 batting average.

In 1975, Parrish played for the Lakeland Tigers, Detroit's Single-A affiliate in the Florida State League. Detroit's player development director, Hoot Evers, decided to take advantage of Parrish's strong throwing arm and moved him to catcher. During the 1975 season, Parrish struggled with blocking balls in the dirt. Evers also persuaded Parrish, a right-handed batter, to try switch-hitting, an experiment that did not take, as his batting average continued to suffer at .220. Parrish became frustrated and questioned his decision to reject the football scholarship from UCLA.

In 1976, Parrish joined the Montgomery Rebels, Detroit's Double-A team in the Southern League. He was encouraged by Montgomery manager Les Moss to abandon the switch-hitting experiment. He continued to struggle at the plate with a .221 batting average, but he hit for power with 14 home runs and 55 RBIs in 107 games. He also began to develop confidence calling pitches under Moss's guidance and helped the Rebels win the Southern League championship.

In addition to Parrish, the 1976 Montgomery team included future Detroit teammates Alan Trammell, Steve Kemp, Tom Brookens, Jack Morris, and Dave Rozema. Parrish later recalled of his days with Montgomery: "We became a band of brothers in a baseball sense. We pushed one another. We kidded one another. We teased one another. We held each other accountable. I think that transformed us into a championship team in '84."

In 1977, Moss and Parrish were both promoted to the Evansville Triplets, Detroit's Triple-A club in the American Association. In July 1977, Moss noted: "The guy has worked and worked, worked his tail off every morning the last two years and has never complained." Parrish earned a reputation in 1977 as the best defensive catcher in the American Association. Working with Moss and making adjustments to his batting stance, Parrish also blossomed at the plate, raising his batting average by 58 points and compiling a .366 on-base percentage in 115 games. He also hit for power, totaling 25 home runs, 90 RBIs, and 216 total bases, and compiling a .519 slugging percentage.

Before making his major-league debut, Parrish worked briefly in 1977 as a bodyguard to singer Tina Turner, accompanying her to a taping of the Hollywood Squares television show in Burbank, California. Parrish recalled: "It was fun for the time it lasted, but it didn't quite compare to trying to become a big league catcher."

1977 and 1978 seasons
Parrish played his last minor-league game for Evansville in August 1977 and was called up by the Tigers, making his major-league debut on September 5. Tiger stars Alan Trammell and Lou Whitaker also made their Detroit debuts in September 1977.

In Parrish's second game with the Tigers, he scored four runs, hit a home run and a bases-loaded, three-run double, and collected four RBIs, leading Associated Press writer Larry Palladino to write that Parrish "stood out like King Kong atop a phone booth."

In March 1978, Detroit manager Ralph Houk said: "I never saw a catcher with an arm like that. He's a natural – and when you see him with the bat, well, he just looks like a ballplayer. It's only a matter of time before he's gonna be a great one." Parrish was expected to spend 1978 as a backup to regular catcher Milt May, but Houk instead employed a platoon system that alternated between Parrish (73 starts at catcher) and May (89 starts at catcher). Parrish hit .219 with 14 home runs.

Breakout season in 1979
In 1979, Les Moss began the season as the Tigers' manager and predicted that Parrish would be a "superstar", pointing to his "tremendous power", his line drives that "can take the gloves off fielders' hands", and noting that he "throws as good as anybody." Parrish became the Tigers' regular catcher, and Milt May was sold to the Chicago White Sox at the end of May. In the middle of June, Sparky Anderson took over from Moss as the Tigers' manager.

Parrish appeared in 143 games in 1979, and with a regular spot in the lineup, his batting average jumped by nearly 60 points from .219 to .276. He also led the team with 26 doubles and hit 19 home runs. Defensively, his plate-blocking skills were tested as he led the American League with 21 passed balls (21), though he also ranked second among the league's catchers in putouts (707), assists (79), and runners caught stealing (57).

All-Star in 1980
Parrish continued to improve in 1980 and was hitting over .300 early in the first half of the season. Although Carlton Fisk finished first in the fan voting, Earl Weaver, manager of the American League All-Star team, selected Parrish as a backup catcher for the American League. It was the first of eight All-Star appearances for Parrish.

Parrish finished the 1980 season with a career-high .286 batting average. He also ranked among the league leaders with 34 doubles (seventh), 64 extra-base hits (eighth), a .499 slugging percentage (ninth), and 24 home runs (ninth). Despite otherwise impressive batting statistics, Parrish ranked second in the league by grounding into 24 double plays and ranked fourth with 109 strikeouts. At the end of the 1980 season, he won the first of his six Silver Slugger Awards as the best hitter at the catcher position.

Defensively, Parrish led the American League catchers in passed balls (17) for the second consecutive season. After the 1980 season, Sparky Anderson opined that Parrish was "starting to come around," but he's "not a superstar." Anderson said that, while Parrish had a great arm and an opportunity to become a superstar, "it's going to take an awful, awful awful lot of hard work – especially in receiving."

Contract extension
In January 1981, Parrish complained publicly about his annual salary. He noted that, despite his All-Star performance in 1980, his $90,000 salary was far lower than other major-league catchers such as Darrell Porter ($700,000 a year) and Jim Essian ($1.2 million for four years) and a fraction of the $2.8-million contract the Tigers gave to Alan Trammell for seven years. General manager Jim Campbell responded angrily to Parrish's public comments, asserting that the Tigers had offered Parrish a multi-year contract that would have paid him in excess of $375,000 per year. In April 1981, Parrish signed the richest contract in the team's history – $3.7 million for six years.

In 1981, after signing the record-setting contract, Parrish's batting average dropped by more than 40 points to .244, and his slugging percentage dropped by more than 100 points to .394.

Offensive rebound in 1982
After missing most of April with stained ligaments or tendons in his catching hand, Parrish came back strong, carrying a .309 batting average by late May. He was selected to the American League All-Star team and threw out three National League baserunners (Steve Sax, Dave Concepción, and Al Oliver) to set an All-Star Game record. He also had a double in two at-bats.

Parrish's batting average jumped 40 points from .244 in 1981 to .284 in 1982. He also ranked among the league leaders with 32 home runs (fifth) and a .529 slugging percentage (eight). His 32 home runs established a new American League record for home runs by a catcher, surpassing the previous mark shared by Yogi Berra and Gus Triandos. Defensively, he gave up 11 passed balls (second most in the league) but his throwing arm continued to place him among the league leaders at catcher with 76 assists (second) and eight double plays turned (third).

At the end of the year, he won his second Silver Slugger Award. He also easily won the Tiger of the Year award, receiving 32 of the 42 first-place votes cast by members of the Detroit chapter of the Baseball Writers' Association of America.

Weightlifting
Parrish was an avid weightlifter during his playing years, giving him one of the most muscular bodies in baseball. His weightlifting created conflict with manager Sparky Anderson who believed that bulking up too much would ruin a player's flexibility and hamper his effectiveness. Parrish continued to lift weights despite Anderson's concerns. After the 1982 season, Parrish credited his power production to his off-season weightlifting regimen. He noted: "It's obvious that me and Sparky have two different opinions on weightlifting."

Slugger and Glove Awards, 1983
Parrish combined excellent offense and defense in 1983. At the plate, he tallied a career-high 114 runs batted in, ranking fourth in the American League. He also ranked among the league leaders with 13 sacrifice flies (first), 42 doubles (third), 72 extra-base hits (third), 292 total bases (eighth), and 27 home runs (ninth).

Defensively, he led the league's catchers with 54 runners caught stealing and a 48.6% rate of runners caught stealing. He also ranked among the league's leaders at catcher with 695 putouts (second), 73 assists (second) and eight double plays turned (second). He also ranked fourth in the league among players at all positions with a defensive Wins Above Replacement rating of 2.0.

Despite batting .304 at the All-Star break, Parrish trailed Milwaukee's Ted Simmons by 100,000 in the fan voting, despite the fact that Simmons was used largely as a designated hitter. Asked about the controversial fan selection, Parrish replied, "I'm not disappointed at all. Ted Simmons is the player the people want to see. . . . Hopefully, I'll get a chance to play." Parrish was selected to the All-Star team as a reserve All-Star for the second consecutive year.

At the end of the season, Parrish won both the Silver Slugger and Gold Glove Awards, establishing him as both the best offensive and defensive catcher in the American League. He also ranked ninth in the voting for the American League Most Valuable Player award.

World Series champions in 1984
Parrish appeared in 147 regular-season games and all eight post-season games for the 1984 Detroit Tigers team that led the American League from the first game to the last and won the 1984 World Series against the San Diego Padres. On April 7, in the fourth game of the season, he caught Jack Morris's no-hitter, giving his longtime teammate a "ferocious hug" after the final out. The Tigers began the season with 35 wins and 5 losses, and for the first time in his career, Parrish led the fan voting to be the starting catcher in the All-Star Game. He received 1,524,616 votes, over 700,000 votes more than second-place finisher Carlton Fisk.

Batting as the clean-up hitter, Parrish hit a team-leading 33 home runs, breaking his own American League record for most home runs in a season by a catcher. His 33 home runs ranked third in the league. He also led the Tigers offense with 98 RBI. Defensively, he again led the league's catchers with 11 double plays turned and ranked second with 67 assists and third with a range factor of 6.20 per game.

In the decisive fifth game of the 1984 World Series, Parrish scored two runs, stole a base, and hit a seventh-inning home run off Goose Gossage. In all five games of the series, he compiled a .364 on-base percentage and .500 slugging percentage and scored three runs. In the post-game celebration, Parrish said, "I can't even describe what this town has meant to us this year. Everybody's been excited. Everybody's been looking forward for a chance to get crazy here."

At the end of the season, Parrish again won the Silver Slugger Award as well as a second Gold Glove Award. It was the second consecutive year in which Parrish was recognized as both the best offensive and defensive catcher in the American League.

1985 and 1986 seasons
In 1985, Parrish had another strong season, though he was unable to play at catcher for three weeks in July due to a lower back strain. In order to rest his back, he appeared in 22 games at designated hitter. He ended the season with a .273 batting average with 28 home runs, 27 doubles, and 98 RBIs. On defense, her ranked second in the league with a range factor of 6.23 per game at catcher. At the end of the 1985 season, Parrish received his third consecutive Gold Glove Award.

In 1986, Parrish began the season strong, totaling 21 home runs and 59 RBIs at the All-Star break. He again was chosen for the All-Star team, but back problems sidelined him for much of the second half. He appeared in only 91 games, 82 as the team's starting catcher. He finished the season with a .257 batting average, 22 home runs and 62 RBIs.

Parrish's six-year contract expired at the end of the 1986 season. The Tigers offered him a two-year, $2.4 million contract (without guarantee in the second year). Parrish rejected the offer and became a free agent.

Philadelphia Phillies (1987–1988)
On March 13, 1987, Parrish signed with the Philadelphia Phillies as a free agent. During the 1987 season, Parrish appeared in 130 games for the Phillies, 124 of them as the starting catcher. He compiled a .257 batting average and hit 17 home runs, his lowest total since the strike-shortened 1981 season. He also grounded into 23 double plays, the second highest total in the National League. His defensive performance also suffered, as he led the league with 142 stolen bases allowed. He had never ranked among the American League leaders in that category.

In 1988, Parrish's offensive output declined further. His batting average dropped to .215, and his slugging percentage of .370 was his lowest to date. He did, however, regain form defensively, leading the National League catchers with 11 double plays turned and ranking second in the league with 73 assists and 50 runners caught stealing. He was selected to the National League All-Star team in 1988, but his back problems continued, and he became "a lightning rod for fan discontent" as the Phillies finished in last place (65–96) in 1988.

California Angels (1989–1992)
On October 3, 1988, the Phillies traded Parrish to the California Angels for minor-league pitcher David Holdridge. Parrish, who lived in Yorba Linda, California, reportedly signed a one-year contract providing a $1 million base salary and a potential for up to $400,000 in bonuses. At the time, Parrish said: "I'm very happy; things couldn't have worked out better. Getting back home was our top priority as a family. This is where our lives are . . . where we've rooted ourselves."

Parrish was the Angels starting catcher from 1989 to 1991, starting over 100 games at the position each year. In 1990, he regained his offensive power, hitting 24 home runs and winning his sixth and final Silver Slugger Award.

Parrish played two-and-a-half months for the Angels in 1992, compiling a .229 batting average with four home runs and 11 runs batted in. He was released by the Angels on June 23, 1992. At the time, columnist Mike Downey praised Parrish as "one damn fine guy", "a presence of dignity and civility in a sometimes crass and unpleasant setting", and a player who "belongs on any list of baseball's best 10 catchers ever."

Seattle Mariners (1992)
On June 28, 1992, Parrish signed with the Seattle Mariners as a free agent to become a backup to catcher Dave Valle. Parrish, age 36 at the time, noted: "It's not like everybody was beating down my door, but I still feel I have a lot to offer a team. I have a lot of catching experience and by no means do I feel I'm over the hill offensively." He appeared in 69 games for the Mariners, 34 as a catcher, 16 as a first baseman, and 14 as a designated hitter. Hit tallied 11 doubles and eight home runs in 192 at bats.

Final years (1993–1996)
In January 1993, Parrish signed a minor league contract with the Los Angeles Dodgers and accepted an invitation to spring training. With rookie catcher (and future Hall of Fame inductee) Mike Piazza batting .571 during spring training, the Dodgers released Parrish in late March. He spent part of the 1993 season playing in the Dodges farm system for the Triple-A Albuquerque Dukes.

On May 7, 1993, he signed as a free agent with the Cleveland Indians. He appeared in only 10 games, tallying four hits (including a home run) in 20 at bats. He was released by the Indians on May 30, 1993.

In February 1994, Parrish signed a free-agent contract with the Detroit Tigers. He spent part of the 1994 season playing for the Tigers' Triple-A team, the Toledo Mud Hens. He was purchased by the Pittsburgh Pirates, appeared in 40 games for the Pirates in 1994, 34 as the club's starting catcher, and compiled a .270 batting average with three home runs and 15 runs batted in.

In February 1995, Parrish signed as a free agent with the Kansas City Royals. He was then acquired by the Toronto Blue Jays on April 22, 1995. On May 29, Parrish hit two home runs against the Detroit Tigers. He appeared in 70 games for the Blue Jays, including 49 games as the team's starting catcher. He compiled a .202 batting average with Toronto and hit four home runs with 22 runs batted in. He appeared in his final major-league game on September 23, 1995, at age 39.

Parrish signed as a free agent with the Pittsburgh Pirates in January 1996. He was released by the Pirates in late March. Though one of the coaches typically handled player cuts, manager Jim Leyland personally delivered the news to Parrish. Leyland noted that Parrish had "earned the right to be in a different category."

Career statistics and honors
In a 19-year major-league career, Parrish played in 1,988 games, accumulating 1,782 hits in 7,067 at bats for a .252 career batting average along with 324 home runs and 1,070 runs batted in. Parrish was an eight-time All-Star (1980, 1982–86, 1988, and 1990), and he won three Gold Glove Awards (1983–85). Parrish was a six-time winner of the Silver Slugger Award, which is awarded annually to the best offensive player at each position.

Parrish ranks as one of the greatest power-hitting catchers in baseball history. By 1994, he ranked fourth in major-league history in home runs as a catcher, trailing only Hall of Famers Carlton Fisk, Johnny Bench, and Yogi Berra. He now ranks sixth, having been passed by Hall of Famers Mike Piazza and Ivan Rodriguez.

Parrish also ranks as one of the most durable catchers in baseball history. At the time of his retirement, his 1,818 games at the position ranked seventh in baseball history. As of 2022, he ranks 13th.

He led American League catchers twice in baserunners caught stealing, once in assists, and once in caught stealing percentage. Parrish finished second in fielding percentage four times and ended his career with a .991 fielding percentage.

In 2001, Parrish received 9 votes (1.7% of the ballots) for induction into the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum. Because he did not receive 5% of the vote, he was not eligible to remain on the following year's ballot. Parrish was inducted into the Michigan Sports Hall of Fame in 2002.

Kansas City and San Antonio (1996–1997)
In June 1996, Parrish was hired by the Kansas City Royals as a special catching instructor to work with catcher Mike Sweeney. In 1997, he was the hitting coach of the Los Angeles Dodgers Double-A team, the San Antonio Missions. He became manager of the San Antonio team in June 1998. San Antonio compiled a 67–73 record with Parrish as its manager.

Detroit (1999–2005)
In October 1998, Parrish was hired as the Detroit Tigers' third base and catching coach. Trammell was hired at the same time as the Tigers' batting coach. He also spent two games as interim manager in July 1999 when regular manager Larry Parrish (no relation) was suspended for bumping an umpire. When Phil Garner took over as manager, Parrish was reassigned as bullpen coach for the 2000 season. Parrish returned to his role as third base coach in 2001, but he was fired by Garner at the end off the 2001 season.

In December 2001, Parrish was hired to serve as the color commentator on Detroit Tigers game broadcasts on Detroit's WKBD television station during the 2002 season. He replaced Al Kaline, who had been a Tigers television announcer for 26 years.

In October 2002, Alan Trammell was hired as the Tigers' manager, and Parrish joined Trammell's staff as bullpen coach. The Tigers lost 300 games in three years under Trammell, and he was fired at the end of the 2005 season. Parrish was also dismissed at that time.

Ogden (2006)
In January 2006, Parrish was hired by the Los Angeles Dodgers as manager of their rookie-level team, the Ogden Raptors. The team finished with a 37–39 record. He next served as manager of the Great Lakes Loons in Single-A ball during the 2007 season. The team compiled a 57–82 record.

Return to Tigers organization (2014–present)
On February 5, 2014, Parrish was named manager of the Double-A affiliate of the Detroit Tigers, the Erie SeaWolves. He was manager of the SeaWolves for four years from 2014 to 2017, compiling a record there of 329–376.

He later served during the 2018 and 2019 seasons as the manager of Single-A West Michigan Whitecaps of the Midwest League. The Whitecaps compiled a 118–160 record in two seasons under Parrish. In nine seasons as a minor-league manager, Parrish compiled an overall record of 541–657 (.452).

On November 12, 2019, Parrish was named special assistant to the general manager for the Tigers.

Personal life
After the 1978 season, Parrish married Arlyne Nolan, a first runner-up in the Miss California competition. They had three children, David (born 1979), Matthew (born 1982), and Ashley (born 1984). David played baseball at the University of Michigan, was selected by the New York Yankees in the first round of the 2000 amateur draft, and played in the minor leagues from 2000 to 2008.

title: Lance Parrish