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Wikipedia talk:Sound/Archive1

After a lot of discussion and a period on Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment without any dissent, this page has been created to relax the previous Wikipedia '.ogg' only sound file policy.

It replaces the previous pages: --Zarni02 08:53, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Sound_help
 * Sound_and_Wikipedia

I object agaisnt the use of .WAV:

-Like AVI WAV isn't a standard : you can use different codecs and some aren't free.

-Most WAV codecs aren't bandwith efficient.

Ericd 12:09, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Pronunciation guides
I haven't yet digested these new recommendations in general, but one exception I have to the sound link placement is that it would be useful to provide a pronunciation link next to the first use of a phrase that might cause readers some pronunciation difficulty (e.g., Abu Ghraib). As far as I know, my concern is only theoretical at this point, since I've neither contributed nor even seen any such pronunciation samples yet. -- Jeff Q 23:17, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

MP3 on Wikipedia
I removed the "agreed upon" guidelines in question and reverted back to Ogg Vorbis and WAV, the user claimed to have consensus for this while he did not get sufficient votes in my opinion for it on here, there are very strong leagal issues to think about which by far outweight comfort-issues, as very few knew of this we should advertise this very well if this discussion it to take place again, including the mailing lists, pump, RFC, Goings-on et cetera. -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason   23:18, 2004 Jul 16 (UTC)

 * I applaud Zarni02's efforts to broaden the use of sound formats on Wikipedia, but I do agree that there should be more debate about MP3 use. The poll that User:Zarni02 created didn't get any response. I, for one, never even heard about it until after it was "over", despite my own strong interest in the subject. (I knew nothing about Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment until today.) I don't think this was Zarni02's fault, as he/she did post a notice on Wikipedia talk:Sound and Wikipedia, and it is far from obvious where such a poll should be posted. (Should it be on the appropriate Talk page? On Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment? On Current surveys? Or somewhere else? I've been using Wikipedia for a year now, and this question gets less clear the more I use it. And what the hell is "Goings-on"?) Since Zarni02 has now redirected several of the revelant but widely-scattered articles and talk pages to this new one, I think this page is currently the best place to discuss the issue. -- Jeff Q 00:11, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I would suggest we attempt to build a consensus decision, but I'm afraid that we are currently missing some vital ingredients, like a complete list of the real-world uses and expectations of sound on Wikipedia, and general Wikipedian participation (rather than the existing OGG users and a handful of dissenters). Any suggestions on how to raise the profile on this topic and formulate such a list? -- Jeff Q 00:11, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Thing is that this is not about whats comfortable, MP3 is a proprietery patent encumbered format that we just get away with currently using, if we would encaurage it's use then people would begin uploading mp3 files to the 'pedia. This would probably be okey for the moment but lets say that we would one day want to publish this and sell it. Then the licenceors of mp3 would demant that they be paid a precentage of that. This is far from useless paranoia because thats what they do today, if you sell an mp3 application then you have to pay for a per-seat licence. Proprietery formats have no place on a free encyclopedia, it is simply wastly counter-productive and harmful for the whole project, any small uncomforts you go through today far underweigh the large comforts we would go through later when we'd have to pay licence costs for the mp3 files or let alone if the patent holders would sue wikimedia. -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason   00:24, 2004 Jul 17 (UTC)

 * Ævar, I think your actions here have been a little rude and would have thought it polite to make changes after discussion and request for comment as was done for these changes. These changes were posted on the request for comment page for weeks. They were not put to a vote since there was no dissent at all.

 * There are no current legal impediments to storing or serving MP3 files on web sites - there is if you make software to produce or manipulate MP3 files.

 * Wikipedia does not make browsers, sound players, editors or other multimedia tools and hence has no liability to any licence holders. Certainly there is potential liability, as there is with everything. But if you start worrying about that you will need to ban just about everything. I personally intend to claim patent rights over the 'bit' and demand $1 for every use therof!

 * The changes I implemented were to relax the previous .ogg only policy, and were a compromise that I actually think a little silly, but were designed to placate the .ogg promoters.

 * Like it or not, MP3 remains the most commonly accepted sound format. The common browsers (IE & Mozilla) provide out of the box support for MP3.

 * --Zarni02 02:26, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

My actions were not rude because you made a policy change more people would like to comment on, both on the pump and here people were not aware of this. There is nothing wrong with changing it back and await more input.

My point was not about websites, Wikipedia is not just a website, wikipedia could be published on CD's in books and on various other mediums, and for that people would perhaps need to ship decoders for the for the media presented in it with that publication, as that happens, and especially when the foundation starts to make some money from that it becomes a bigger target for a patent lawsuit. There is a danm good reason why RedHat for example just doesnt ship a mp3 decoder with it's distribution, people who do that are at the mercy of Fraunhoffer.

I frankly do not care if MP3 is the most popular format, i refuse to condone that a free encyclopedia i work on will start to promote none-free formats, it's not much good being free is it if you need none-free tools to read the material now is it? I frankly think it's much less effort for people to just get a Ogg Vorbis decoder, which takes 2-5 minuites than us bending over and accepting proprietery formats, mp3 is possibly the most open proprietery format however, but once the example has been set people might start to promote things like Windows Media, Real Media and others, it's just a very bad example to set IMO.

And just as a note IE and Mozilla have no out of the box support for mp3, they forward the file to the application registered for the MIME type in question, you just think they do because your system supports mp3 files and not Ogg files, install an Ogg decoder, register it for the Ogg MIME type, and then you'll be able to play Ogg's seamlessly, just like you play MP3's now --  Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason   02:42, 2004 Jul 17 (UTC)

 * What's this absurd talk about "publishing" and "selling" Wikipedia content? I don't recall any talk or suggestion that this was a potential future for Wikipedia. (I'm contributing to a free encyclopedia, not one that someone expects to make money from.) It sounds like a silly straw-man argument by someone desperate to disguise the real issue — avoiding the overzealous litigation by content licensors (not licenceors) anxious to protect their legitimate rights by preventing illegal copying and distribution of music files. Wikipedia must guard against the improper uploading of such materials just as it fights illegal copyright violations of textual material. I will say (as I've said many times before, elsewhere) that these arguments seem to suggest that the existing sound use in Wikipedia is mainly to provide yet another repository for music which may or may not include copyright violations, and that the OGG effort merely aims to eliminate imagined exposure to patent violations of proprietary (not proprietery) technology without addressing real problems. Once again, I call for a thorough, rational debate of all options and issues, rather than this silly knee-jerk argument cycle. -- Jeff Q 03:02, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Then you've misunderstood what free means, it being a free encyclopedia does not mean nobody can sell it, in fact people are already selling it in germany now as a matter of fact, the word free in the english language has two meanings, Free as in Freedom and Free as in no price, wikipedia is the former. There are already plans to sell it, publish it and people are in fact already doing that on a small scale, why? because the GFDL grants them the freedom to do that. -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason   03:10, 2004 Jul 17 (UTC)

 * By the way, IE, Mozilla, and pretty much every browser in existence have out-of-the-box support for WAV, yet it is also a target for these knee-jerk attacks. MP3 may not have OOTB support from browsers, but neither does OGG. OGG can't claim any significant fraction of MP3's support in the real world, and MP3 tools that provide automatic installation and configuration of browser support for non-technical users make OGG's few, pathetic versions look like Stone Age tools. -- Jeff Q 03:02, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

People disagree with WAV for different reasons, it is an open, lossless format, and furthermore it has no metadata like Ogg Vorbis or Ogg FLAC, hence files in WAV are huge for their content and have no data associated with them save for their name, which is often uninformetive. -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason   03:12, 2004 Jul 17 (UTC)
 * As for Zarni02's change, it was advertised ahead of time in the very forum that was dicussing this ongoing issue. The most he/she can be blamed for is not waiting long enough for a response before such a bold action. I also think Zarni02 was the victim of a Wikipedia glitch (of which there are many currently), since I had Sound and Wikipedia on my watchlist, yet never noticed his/her postings during the solicitation period. -- Jeff Q 03:02, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Yet it was not on the pump and not on the mailings lists ( i've put it on both now ), what exactly are you objecting to? That i reverted him because many people could not due to it being in some absurd place comment on it? I simply want a public discussion on the issue and while that has not taken place i reverted this so called consensus. -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason   03:10, 2004 Jul 17 (UTC)

Given our established commitment to providing content that is as open as possible, I don't see how we can use MP3 files on Wikipedia while the technology is covered by patents. Compare this with the image file formats we allow. --Michael Snow 03:49, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

We should definitely stick to OGG. There is no good reason to go with MP3. It takes minimal effort to get an OGG player, and Wikipedia should promote open standards. Jimbo has always said that he envisions Wikipedia to be distributed to poor nations on CD and DVD. We're not going to be at the mercy of the decoder providing companies. We should just bundle an Ogg player. Using MP3 is akin to using fair use when public domain is available. So what if it's a bit more inconvenient for users. It's a much more important issue to provide free (as in open) content. And this most definitely needed to have been advertised on the pump and mailing lists. It's not a small issue, and no one has every single policy/guideline out there on their watchlist. Dori | Talk 04:20, Jul 17, 2004 (UTC)

 * Just seen this page - winamp does ogg out of the box. Ogg is hardly unsupported. Secretlondon 07:04, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

There was no dissent because nobody knew it was happening. I know I personally can't monitor all pages that potentially have policy discussions. At any rate, patent-encumbered formats are unacceptable unless no other option exists. -- Cyrius|✎ 04:30, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I think that would be pretty obvious seeing as he didnt recive any comments on RFC. This is a huge issue, and it's not just about some MP3 files, this is much bigger, it's discussing whether we should allow proprietery formats on Wikipedia. -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason   05:02, 2004 Jul 17 (UTC)

 * It's even more important than that. We would be forcing some people to have to pay in order to get to the content and be able to modify it, or they might not be able to get to it at all legally. Sure there are plenty of free (as in open) programs that encode and decode mp3, but how many of them are legal and available in all platforms? Dori | Talk 05:09, Jul 17, 2004 (UTC)

I just wanted to add my voice against MP3 or any proprietary format in Wikipedia. OGG may not be the most popular format, but then neither is PNG (I'm aware that the GIF patents have expired). To remain free (as in freedom) Wikipedia cannot accept proprietary formats. I would suggest reading for an explanation of freedom in the context of software. Most of the ideas of free software can be extended to free content (like Wikipedia) by analogy. Dan Gardner 05:16, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Indeed, when this is all over i suggest we hold a vote on making Ogg Vorbis, Ogg Speex and Ogg FLAC our suggested audio formats and Ogg Theora our media format, that way we'll have a complete,free solution for media. w00t;) -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason   06:10, 2004 Jul 17 (UTC)

 * To me, this is a very simple question. If a file format can't be read with free software, then we must not use it.  If a file format can be read with free software, but can't be created with free software, then we should strongly discourage the use.  Notice that the GIF patent threat was to creators of software like The Gimp (to make the files) rather than to creators of software like Mozilla (to read the files).  The situation with MP3 is, as I understand it, much worse.  Here the threat is to both encoders and decoders.  Therefore we must not use MP3 files.

 * It is important to undertsand that the issue of convenience is at the heart of our fight for freedom. People continue to use proprietary formats and proprietary software because they perceive it as being more convenient.  One of the most important things that we can do is to illustrate that proprietary formats are actually inconvenient, so long as some people choose to use formats that are free.  And if we at Wikipedia do our small part to get people to download and install a proper free decoder (this will generally just be a codec in a player) so that we make the free Ogg Vorbis format as convenient as the proprietary format, we will have achieved something important.  Jimbo Wales 06:59, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Keep Wikipedia open and free!   — Chameleon My page/My talk 07:21, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

A free enciclopedia isn't free anymore if it's stored in propietary formats, so say NO to patent-royalty-encumbered mp3. About WAV, it's a complete waste of space. If lossless audio is needed, there's FLAC, a free lossless format. I'd replace WAV with that in the guidelines.Rvalles 13:07, Jul 18, 2004 (UTC)

For whatever it's worth, I've been working in secondary schools for four years, now. At each of them, the computers available for research in the libraries were either Apple OS X (wealthy prep school) or Win95/98. In the last year, I've been a librarian. While I migrated my machines to Debian, the public libraries in the area were Win 98 machines, with a few "special" XP machines. The licenses for .mp3 have been encumbered upon the OS in these cases, and the students, who were encouraged to use Wikipedia, had no ability to play .ogg files. Were Wikipedia to move to .ogg exclusively, its functionality would be limited severely for a good portion of the public. This is not to say that .ogg isn't superior, only that 90% of market share in PC's is still Microsoft, and public research facilities are normally behind others. Geogre 01:58, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

From Sound "MP3 is a ubiquitous technology whch some dislike because of licensing issues, though everone has a player for it and free of charge players and recorders are included in all popular operating systems." It's wrong there's no MP3 player in recent releases of Redhat Linux. Ericd 10:25, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I agree with Ericd. Besides the egregious spelling errors, the quoted passage above is absurdly absolute and needlessly denigrates legitimate licensing concerns. (For the record, not everyone has an MP3 player, even though it is currently the most popular compressed music format, and there are no legal free players. Any OS bundling players must pay a licensing fee, and any legal use of separate player applications and devices must include a payment to the equipment or software vendor, from which they may pay license fees. This, of course, does not prevent significant illegal use of MP3.) I have replaced the MP3 issue paragraph with yet another attempt at an accurate and NPOV statement. I've also added an HTML comment suggesting that people read this page before attempting further edits on the passage. The text I added is:

 * MP3, though an extremely popular format, is burdened by some complex licensing issues, making Wikipedia use problematic at best. It should not be used at this time. (See Wikipedia talk:Sound for the ongoing debate.)
 * MP3, though an extremely popular format, is burdened by some complex licensing issues, making Wikipedia use problematic at best. It should not be used at this time. (See Wikipedia talk:Sound for the ongoing debate.)

 * For those who simply must change this to reflect their strong convictions, please consider the following:
 * MP3 proponents should note that, regardless of MP3's popularity, the MP3 distribution license raises legitimate legal concerns, however unreasonably, even for organizations who merely host MP3 files. (It's an unfortunate reality, in the U.S. at least, that legal arguments are frequently won by the party with more money, not necessarily with the better case.) Also, current policy, per Wikipedia founder User:Jimbo Wales, is not to allow MP3.
 * MP3 opponents should note that simply stating "MP3 is not compatible with a free encyclopedia" invites honest attempts to revise the text to something more explanatory, as well as outraged supportive statements that don't belong in the article.
 * -- Jeff Q 13:00, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

MP3s are protected with patents. So, just because _today_ you are charged only for encoding MP3s that does not mean that _tomorrow_ you will not be charged for playing or distributing MP3s. Patent encumbered encodings have no place on a free Wikipedia.--kop 03:10, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Playing in browser

 * To play the sound file you should only need to click on the sound file for your browser to play the file.

This line forms the heart of what I believe sound support in Wikipedia should provide, but doesn't seem to be reflected by many existing Wikipedia sound users (primarily the crowd that vehemently argues for OGG as the exclusive sound format for Wikipedia). Except for the WAV format, users are likely to run into problems following this advice. It would be a good idea to create a section (or perhaps even an article) that addresses how to test and configure one's browser to make this possible. Existing links and documents are sparse and too terse in their "explanations", useful only to a highly-technical user population. I'm well aware of just how challenging a topic this is. I'm only pointing out that the currently reality is quite a distance from the desired goal in this statement. -- Jeff Q 23:25, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Please do add instruction on how to play Ogg files in the most common browsers and on the most common platforms. -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason   23:30, 2004 Jul 16 (UTC)

 * I would like to, but I tend to spend most of my Wiki time on things I know well. I have no significant experience with OGG yet, and it will take me some time to become knowledgeable enough to do the topic justice. What I would like to see is likely well beyond the interests of those who are already comfortable with OGG, as documenting installation processes (never mind improving and generalizing them!) is much more tedious and time-consuming than just sitting down to the computer and doing it free-style whenever it's needed. (Making complex technical processes easy and comprehensible has been a significant part of my professional career, so I know of what I speak.) I fear that nothing will be done on this subject until someone like me can take the time to do this significant task. Given the condescension shown to myself and others looking for snidely-labelled "comfortable" sound use by certain members of the OGG crowd, I don't expect any help from that quarter. -- Jeff Q 23:50, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I don't know exactly the current state of MP3 support out-of-the-box for Microsoft Windows, but I recall distinctly that you not so long ago had to install a separate, third-party program (generally [Winamp http://www.winamp.com]) to play MP3's. Well, Winamp (at least the full version) plays OGG's too. David.Monniaux 07:26, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I distinctly remember a page with guidelines on what programs to use for Ogg (as I added to it myself), where did this end up in the shuffle? Dori | Talk 04:24, Jul 17, 2004 (UTC)

 * The page I think you mean was Sound_help. I moved this to Ogg Vorbis help --Zarni02 04:48, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I am not sure that this should be in the main namespace (at least in the format that it is). Dori | Talk 05:01, Jul 17, 2004 (UTC)
 * Moving it to Ogg Vorbis help and adding a "help with" link to Ogg Vorbis. +sj +  04:31, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Based on the information in Jimbo's post above and some other sources, I can see the problems that people have about MP3 licensing. One can argue that the license can't be enforced against simple distribution of materials, but one would be foolish to bet one's financial security on such arguments in the current litigious climate. I was not aware that people were making money from the sale of Wikipedia content. I have some real problems with this, but that's obviously a completely separate topic and doesn't change the reality. In any case, there remains the rather significant problem that there is no widely-supported, efficient, GFDL-friendly sound format. OGG may be the closest thing we have, but its current state (as I've said elsewhere) makes it very difficult for a non-techie to properly install and integrate its support into their regular browser use. (I know many of you OGG folks out there are going to want to object to these claims, but I've worked as a programmer and technical consultant in the computer industry for over 20 years, and I can tell you that anyone comfortable with browser plugin installation [and the near-inevitable troubleshooting!] as it exists today already exhibits technical skills far beyond the average Web user.) It may be that the only near-term solution to the problem is creating better help and installation processes for OGG. I'll have to study this some more. On the other hand, none of this affects the utility of WAV files. The main objection there seems to be their massive size, but for my purposes — short sound clips illustrating encyclopedic topics (like pronunciation and sound effects) — this should not be an issue. -- Jeff Q 23:35, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

We should not be using patented formats where open ones are available. ogg is getting more widely supported, and we should encourage this. NPOV does not apply in this area - we are no neutral on this issue - we favour freedom over closed software, and should promote it by using it. Mark Richards 01:14, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I have had no problem making OGG play on my browser, it should not be that hard to show others how to do it. All I had to do was go to the Winamp site, download it, and tell it to becmome my standard audio player. After that, when I cliked on an OGG file, a screen popped up asking me what I wanted to use to open the file, the default was Winamp, there was a checkbox that said "always use this program to open this type of file" I checked that and now the OGG file plays right away whenever I click on it. I am using Firefox 0.9.2, maybe it is harder with IE, but it can't be that much harder.Jeff8765 02:46, Jul 18, 2004 (UTC)

 * Jeff8765, the fact that you use Firefox already pegs you as a technical user. I should not need to point out to any experienced techie how ill-advised the expression "it can't be much harder" is. Have you ever worked in a Customer Service hotline for a software manufacturer? ☺ From what little I've seen of Firefox, it seems a surprisingly robust and stable browser for a "pre-release", and the one plugin I've separately installed so far (AlternaTIFF for robust TIFF support) for Firefox 0.8 worked quite well for it as well as my copies of Opera 7.23 (my preferred browser), Mozilla 1.5, Netscape 4.79, and Netscape 7.1 — all automatically within a single installation. This was the most remarkable plugin experience I've ever had, and is a tribute to AlternaTIFF, not Firefox or the other browsers. MSIE uses a very different and bug-ridden ActiveX-based plugin system, so assumptions based on Firefox use are unwise at best. Unfortunately, the vast majority of users access the Web through MSIE. In any case, I suggest that data-sparse theorizing about OGG installation and configuration for the majority of potential users is fairly pointless. I challenge the fans of OGG to produce an setup process for a specific OGG player for each likely browser/version that fits on a modest-sized page and is tested on at least vanilla installations of each of those browsers. The less one has to read and the more one can simply click on obvious links and buttons without triggering technophobia, the better. I hope to do this myself at some point in the future, but it will take me some time to get to it. -- Jeff Q 07:45, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Reference document
http://www.mp3licensing.com/royalty/software.html

 * Try again, Ericd. This document explicitly states that it covers encoders and decoders and not distribution, commercial or otherwise, of MP3 files. I would have fixed it myself with the information contained on that page, but I'm just a little bit upset about your snotty and unjustified accusation on Village pump. Fix it yourself. -- Jeff Q 23:20, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It covers decoders, that means you can't play MP3 with free software. Enough for me. Ericd 09:10, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Ericd, Wikipedia does not play MP3, therefore it can't be affected by license issues regarding decoders. Only client-based application software plays MP3. (Even browsers don't actually do it themselves.) It neither furthers your argument nor your reputation for clear thinking to present irrelevant data. But I will help you out, since I'm feeling more charitable than I was yesterday, by posting the appropriate reference document link in proper Wiki-external-link form:

 * Thomson mp3licensing.com: Electronic Music Distribution / Broadcasting / Streaming

 * To save interested parties even the trouble of examining that document, I'll post the relevant text as well:

 * [D/B/S coverage includes] Commercial (i.e., revenue-generating) use of mp3/mp3PRO in broadcast systems (terrestrial, satellite, cable and/or other distribution channels), streaming applications (via Internet, intranets and/or other networks), other content distribution systems (pay-audio or audio-on-demand applications and the like) or use of mp3/mp3PRO on physical media (compact discs, digital versatile discs, semiconductor chips, hard drives, memory cards and the like).

 * Note: No license is needed for private, non-commercial activities (e.g., home-entertainment, receiving broadcasts and creating a personal music library), not generating revenue or other consideration of any kind or for entities with an annual gross revenue less than US$ 100 000.00.

 * Since I've got the same problem with MP3 that I do with OGG — complete lack of inline browser support (i.e., need for a complicated external application to play the files) — I'll leave further arguments about the implications of this text for others to debate. -- Jeff Q 01:26, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

New Policy Proposal: Ogg + WAV
The previous .ogg only policy was not working. This is demonstrably correct since apart from the Ogg Vorbis demo files unrelated to any articles, hardly any articles have sound files attached. I could find only 5, of which I contributed the sounds to 2 of these. There are probably more - but I could not find them. The existing Wikipedia Sound page and the Music page have no sounds!

By a very strange twist of fate, one of the existing pages with sound attached is The_Spanish_Inquisition_%28Monty_Python%29.

The intent of the change was to relax the previous '.ogg only policy'. No one was particularly keen on promoting MP3. (See previous discussions on Wikipedia_talk:Sound_and_Wikipedia).

I seem to have fermented some healthy discussion. As the above shows, there is some strong dissent against MP3.

If or when Microsoft/IE starts supporting Ogg Vorbis, then all these arguments are moot and Ogg Vorbis reigns supreme. Until this occurs, there is a need for Wikipedia to present its users with a workable solution.

The solutuion as suggested on Wikipedia_talk:Sound_and_Wikipedia was to provide multiple formats. The changes I implemented were the result of these discussions.

However, in the interest of a working compromise I would like to declare:
 * Okey dokey, I should also have posted to the Village Pump (I only posted to the various discussion pages). My mistake! Thanks to Ævar for posting there.
 * There are sound reasons to avoid MP3 (tehe!)
 * We should seek to promote Ogg Vorbis
 * Whatever the policy on sound is, it should be easily usable by the average user

And now I would like to propose a revised sound encoding policy that I am hoping most people can live with: - Sound files should be encoded in Ogg Vorbis format - Sound files can optionally be encoded in WAV format - Sound files should not be encoded in MP3 format

Support for WAV files should be removed as soon as the latest version of IE (ok, Windows/Windows Media Player or whatever), provides support for Ogg Vorbis.

The only issue I see with the above is that WAV files are uncompressed. However, since this seems to be the only remotely acceptable format that Microsoft supports, I think it is the best of a bad bunch. If we adhere to a small sample file size, the uncompressed nature should not be an issue. Wikipedia should not be used to store full songs or 5 minute monologues.

EricD raised an issue with different Codecs used within WAV. I think most software uses the PCM format for WAV. I have never had an issue with WAV files from any source. Nevertheless it is an issue, but as I said, WAV is the best of a bad bunch. In any case, if someone has problem with the WAV file, there will be the OGG file available.

Please comment.

--Zarni02 04:35, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I think your above proposal is well-stated, reasonable, and thankfully devoid of the vituperative commentary (to which I have admittedly contributed at times) that has colored this ongoing debate. I would add only that, by "IE support for Ogg Vorbis", we mean out-of-the-box support. In the meantime, hopefully, we can develop some easy-to-use procedures to make Ogg setup friendly for non-technical Wikipedians. -- Jeff Q 07:56, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * hardly any articles have sound files attached -- You haven't looked very well. I alone have uploaded over 60 Ogg files: User:Dori/Media. The easiest way to find them is to go to Special:Imagelist and enter ".ogg" for the search string. Dori | Talk 13:08, Jul 18, 2004 (UTC)

 * Dori, thank you very much for that pointer. My own search attempts had yielded poor results similar to Zarni02's. (It's another example of how unobvious some really useful page names are, exacerbated by the expedient practice of calling sound files "images". This is the kind of "secret handshake" stuff that technical folks like us take for granted, but cause massive confusion for ordinary mortals simply trying to use software.) I've downloaded and converted into an Excel spreadsheet a snapshot list of the 576 ".ogg" files I found, and will be studying them in an attempt to understand and extrapolate all the existing uses of Ogg-based sound on Wikipedia. I'm afraid I don't hold out much hope for getting this information from the actual users, since many seem to be more interested in decrying other formats and insulting and dismissing non-techies than actually providing useful information. Thank you for being an exception to this trend. -- Jeff Q 00:19, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Yes, seeing "image" when it should be "file" is confusing, and that cruft really should go. I went through and fixed some of this, but for some of them it's not easy to figure out if it's really meant to specify "image" or the generic "file." I hope I didn't make any mistakes, but I guess I'll deal with the criticism if it means a bit less confusion on the part of some users. You can see the interface messages at . Dori | Talk 04:48, Jul 20, 2004 (UTC)

 * Dori, I did not mean to criticize you or anyone else for taking that expedient course with the "image" namespace and nomenclature. I recognize that creating and maintaining Wikpedia infrastructure is a considerable effort, especially for unpaid volunteers. (And it's more than just messages; I imagine that the "Image:" prefix, apparently implemented before there were other kinds of binary files to upload, is not something updated as "easily" as the system messages. But this was just an example; there are far more pressing technical issues.) All I meant to say is that too many Wiki contributors with a significant technical background take for granted their own rapid climbing of the learning curve, and show little or no patience with anyone who lacks their background (or with anyone trying to help such people). I don't expect, say, code compilers or Linux to be comprehensible by non-techies — like my parents — but for something like Wikipedia, which is supposed to be accessible by anyone who can operate a browser, and whose audience is actively being grown (see Building Wikipedia membership), I try to bring technical barriers to the attention of those who are in a position to do something about it. Thank you again for your efforts. -- Jeff Q 17:38, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Ta. I found half a dozen or so more articles from that search.

 * By the by, if you do the same search for .mp3 or .wav you find lots more by lots of people (not just the same 2 or 3 .ogg contributors). It would seem that people have been ignoring the '.ogg only policy anyway' --Zarni02 00:21, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I disagree totally with the WAV proposal. WAV is a container that can held non-compressed audio (it's better to use lossless compressed audio, like the free FLAC), and propietary audio, which can lead to legal problems. So I suggest replacing it with FLAC in the proposal, and limiting its use to the few times that lossless audio is needed.Rvalles 13:07, Jul 18, 2004 (UTC)

About the Windows/IE argument, my rebuttal is: who cares? really, there is only so far we can bend over backwards for a group of people — they can download a plugin, for FREE! — in three to five minuites!! really how hard could it be? Webdesigners put flash all over the web and that doesnt have support in IE. yet they get a plugin, if they want to listen to sound on wikipedia they can get a Vorbis plugin, it doesnt take long as detailed above and is really the best solution in my opinion.

Now, since we're on the issue, i suggest that we expand the formats to : Ogg Speex, Ogg Vorbis, Ogg FLAC, Ogg Theora and show people how to get plugins to play them. -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason   16:18, 2004 Jul 18 (UTC)

 * Am not sure where the profusion of .ogg contained encodings will lead. The simplest working solution is usually the best, so if you heart is iset on .ogg why not stick to Ogg Vorbis? If it comes to the crunch I would much rather see Ogg Vorbis only than a bagfull of .ogg encodings that will just lead to confusion.

 * Thats not the point, the only practical reason why you would want WAV is because it is a lossless encoding — hence the policy should be expanded to include at least FLAC which would satisfy that audiance. -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason   04:19, 2004 Jul 20 (UTC)

 * Ævar, I congratulate you on your use of issue-avoidance debate techniques to obfuscate this dialog. First, despite my and others' repeated concerns that WAV should be supported specifically and primarily because of its universal support by Web browsers, you continue to propagate the straw man argument that losslessness is the reason its inclusion is being promoted. Second, you attempt to further complicate an already challenging technical environment for casual Web users (which probably make up the vast majority of Wikipedia readers) by arguing that a string of Ogg formats be recommended for use, in addition to FLAC (which I've never even heard of). This could have the effect of discouraging further debate (let alone actual use) of sound formats by the uninitiated. This tactic is much more effective than answering the valid argument that WAV inclusion would immediately provide sound support for all Wikipedia users. (There are certainly practical arguments against it, which I've already discussed, but you clearly understand the tactical disadvantage of taking on your opponent's strong points directly.) -- Jeff Q 17:55, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Ævar, we have multiple objectives. First, we're an encyclopedia. Much though I want to promote formats which the silly US and Japanese laws haven't let be patented, I also know that it's not possible to download an OGG player for most embedded devices and that most of our audience doesn't yet have an OGG player and many of those will be prohibited from installing one if their school or library doesn't allow them to install new software. So, while OGG is good, we do need to recognise what our readers need from us and not only provide what we'd like people to use. We should certainly promote and encourage the provision of OGG (and FLAC and anything else of interest) but we shouldn't ban formats almost everyone uses. Once you've thought about audio, please consider which video formats you want to use. I'm not aware of any readily available and well supported video format which the US and Japanese laws haven't let be encumbered by patents and I'm not about to suggest banning video on Wikipedia. Jamesday 00:34, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Seems to me the issue comes down to this:
 * Open Source: a .ogg only policy that has the primary goal of promoting free and open source software
 * Ease of use: a relaxed .ogg policy that is a yucky compromise solution but provides greater ease of use for Wiki users

 * I suggest both of these have merit and are in line with 'Wiki' paradigms. The problem is we are now talking about decisions that are value based. If you value open source over ease of use, you will go with option 1 above. If you value ease of use over open source you will go the other way.

 * It is clear that Ævar and others are solidly in the 'Open Source' camp. I myself and others are in the 'Ease of Use' camp. As these are questions of values and near religious beliefs, I also suggest these two camps will never agree. We could spend the next hundred years arguing, but I am sure we will never agree.

 * So we have a dispute, and its pretty darn clear we will not reach consensus. There is a process for resolving such disputes outlined on Dispute_resolution. I suggest we are at the stage where we are at the 'Conduct a Survey' stage.

 * So Ævar, as we seem to be the main two protagonists here, my suggestion is that yourself and myself organise such a survey. On my part I will live by the results of the survey, but will not be upset if you still pursue afterwards as it is clear that you are quite passionate about the issues.

 * I hope other interested parties here agree that we are at that stage. Please comment. --Zarni02 02:40, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * It's not about open source -there are open source MP3 tools available, like the excellent LAME libraries. It's about silly US and Japanese patent law which lets software be patented. Jamesday 00:34, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Actually, there is no need in my opinion to hold a survey, it would just be a waste of time since the overwhelming consensus in the discussion above is to keep formats on Wikipedia free, a survey is only needed if alot of people lean both ways on a topic, currently people are dramatically leaning towards free codecs.
 * Furthermore there are some things which you just cant take a survey on, the whole project was started as a free encyclopedia, therefore to stay free we use free formats, even if the sympathisers were to favor your proposed Ease of use option it would not lead to wikipedia starting to use none-free formats, it would rather lead to that group having to fork off wikipedia and start another encyclopedia, because thats what you do when you disagree with very core philosophy or policies of a project, we're not just talking about some small issues like people disagreeing with english or british spellings.
 * You probably mean well, just like i do, i think however you just dont get how important this is, it would be very bad for the project to find itself in a situation where as someone mentioned above you could not read the free content unless you used none-free software, akin to what free java programs have to deal with. -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason   04:19, 2004 Jul 20 (UTC)

 * It's really easy to get agreement when only advocates of one viewpioint are around. Lets see what happens once there's been a bit more publicity about a proposal to ban the world's primary music format from the encyclopedia. Jamesday 00:34, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Nothing wrong with WAV files, although if you're going to support lossless encoding you should also include the flac format. It is a good idea to support some sort of lossless encoding. --kop 03:15, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia uses for sound
I keep whining about how few people make explicit their desired uses for Wikipedia sound. Well, I'll shut up about it if people could just add to the list below whatever they currently use or expect to use sound for in Wikipedia pages. I think it will help us understand the scope of and potential users for sound, so we can better determine how to make it easier for all without introducing more problems (like legal liabilities and complex setups) than necessary. If you wish, you can add your user name (with the markup) to allow others to ask for further details "offline", so we don't clutter this list. -- Jeff Q 08:07, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Pronunciation for selected names and phrases. (Jeff Q)
 * Insect and animal sound samples. (Jeff Q)
 * Selected sound effects (for audio illustration, not as a page enhancer or a catalog of sound effects). (Jeff Q)
 * Basically the above, articles such as International phonetic alphabet would benefit alot from from pronunciation sounds, animal sounds would also go very well with the pages on various animals. --  Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason   16:07, 2004 Jul 18 (UTC)
 * Music — excerpts from classical works, as well as examples on music theory such as harmonies, scales, and ornamentation. — Pladask 00:20, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * I think television articles could be useful with theme songs. Danny has told me this is a copyright risk, but I have just received a reply back from Mark Little, the webmaster from mythemes.tv, and he said that I am allowed to use any theme from his site in my endeavour. He even offered to convert some of them to .ogg. This could be debated, obviously, but email me and tell me what your thoughts are. Mike H 16:37, Jul 21, 2004 (UTC)
 * Legal examples of cases involving sound, fair use and other issues, in the exact formats involved. These will include MP3 cases with MP3 examples. They also include MIDI, WAV and probably a dozen other formats. Jamesday 00:38, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Jamesday, I don't quite understand how sound samples will help illustrate articles on legal cases, even when they involve sound formats. Could you replace your entry here (and my comment) with a more specific example of how you would envision such a use? -- Jeff Q 13:23, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

title: Wikipedia talk:Sound/Archive1


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Wikipedia:Today's featured article

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license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Wikipedia:Today's featured article


text:
Expedition 4

Expedition 4 was the fourth expedition to the International Space Station (7 December 2001 – 15 June 2002).

Mission parameters

 * Perigee: 384 km
 * Apogee: 396 km
 * Inclination: 51.6°
 * Period: 92 min

Mission objectives
The International Space Station expanded its science investigations, almost doubling the previous amount of experiments performed during the Expedition Four mission. The fourth resident crew launched on 5 December 2001 on board Space Shuttle Endeavour during mission STS-108. They became official station residents at 20:03 UTC on 7 December 2001, and remained on board until June 2002, when they landed on STS-111.

An international crew of three were the fourth crew to live aboard the International Space Station. The team was led by Russian Yuri I. Onufrienko and joined by American crewmates Daniel W. Bursch and Carl E. Walz, both flight engineers. As a part of the STS-108 mission, Endeavour delivered the Expedition 4 crew to the station. They returned to Earth 19 June 2002, aboard Space Shuttle Endeavour following the STS-111 mission.

Spacewalks
The Expedition Four crew conducted three spacewalks during its stay on board the International Space Station. The crew spent a total of 17 hours and 51 minutes outside the station. These spacewalks brought the total up to 34—nine station-based and 25 shuttle-based—that have been conducted at the station for total of 208 hours and 5 minutes.

title: Expedition 4


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Nathaniel Wallich

Nathaniel Wolff Wallich (28 January 1786 – 28 April 1854) was a surgeon and botanist of Danish origin who worked in India, initially in the Danish settlement near Calcutta and later for the Danish East India Company and the British East India Company. He was involved in the early development of the Calcutta Botanical Garden, describing many new plant species and developing a large herbarium collection which was distributed to collections in Europe. Several of the plants that he collected were named after him.

Early life and education
Nathaniel Wallich was born in Copenhagen in 1786 as Nathan Wulff Wallich. His father Wulff Lazarus Wallich (1756–1843) was a Sephardic Jewish merchant originally from the Holsatian town Altona near Hamburg, who settled in Copenhagen late in the 18th century. His mother was Hanne née Jacobson (1757–1839).

Wallich attended the Royal Academy of Surgeons in Copenhagen, where his professors trained in the botanical science included Erik Viborg, Martin Vahl, Heinrich Christian Friedrich Schumacher and Jens Wilken Hornemann. He obtained the diploma from the Academy in 1806, and at the end of the year was appointed as surgeon in the Danish settlement at Serampore, then known as Frederiksnagore in Bengal.

Career
Wallich sailed for India in April 1807 via the African cape and arrived at Serampore the following November. However, the Danish alliance with Napoleonic France resulted in many Danish colonies being seized by the British, including the outpost at Frederiksnagore. When the British East India Company took over Frederiksnagore, Wallich was imprisoned, but released on parole in 1809 on the merit of his scholarship.

Service in East India Company
From August 1814, Wallich became an assistant surgeon in the East India Company's service and resigned as superintendent of the Indian Museum in December 1814.

First curator of Indian Museum
Wallich proposed the forming of a museum in a letter dated 2 February 1814 to the Council of the Asiatic Society. Wallich offered his services to the society and some items from his own collections for the museum. The society heartily supported the proposal and resolved to set up a museum and to appoint Wallich to be the honorary curator and then superintendent of the Oriental Museum of the Asiatic Society. Dr. Nathaniel Wallich took charge of the museum on 1 June 1814. The museum thus inaugurated, grew rapidly under the guidance of its founder Wallich and private collectors. Most of these private contributors were Europeans except for one Indian, Babu Ramkamal Sen, initially a collector and later the first Indian secretary to the Asiatic Society. Wallich was not only the enthusiastic founder and the first curator the Indian Museum, he was one of the largest donors to the museum at its inception. Out of one hundred seventy four items donated to the museum till 1816, Wallich donated forty-two botanical specimens.

Royal Botanical Garden, Calcutta
Wallich was also temporarily appointed superintendent of the Royal Botanic Garden, Calcutta, and later permanently joined the garden in 1817, and served there until 1846, when he retired from the service. Ill health forced Wallich to spend the years 1811–1813 in the more temperate climate of Mauritius, whence he continued his studies. In 1822, at the behest of his friend Sir Stamford Raffles he travelled to Singapore to design the botanical garden, but returned to Calcutta the following year.

Wallich prepared a catalogue of more than 20,000 specimens, known informally as the "Wallich Catalogue". The specimens in the catalogue were either collected by Wallich himself or from other collectors around the same period, including Roxburgh, Gomez, Griffith and Wight. The collector of each specimen is clearly cited in the catalogue itself. Today, Wallich's personal collection is housed at the Kew Herbarium as the Wallich Collection. In addition to the specimens there, Wallich also distributed duplicates of his specimens to herbaria, including some to Sir Joseph Banks, which are in the Kew general collection.

He published two books, Tentamen Florae Nepalensis Illustratae and Plantae Asiaticae Rariores, and went on numerous expeditions. One of Wallich's greatest contributions to the field of plant exploration was the assistance he regularly offered to the many plant hunters who stopped in Calcutta on their way to the Himalayas.

The three volumes of Plantae Asiaticae Rariores made use of artists employed by the Calcutta Botanic Garden: 146 drawings by Gorachand, 109 by Vishnupersaud and one work by Rungiah (the artist employed by Robert Wight); the rest of the plates were by John Clark and three by William Griffith. Two hundred and fifty copies of the work were printed, of which 40 were purchased by the East India Company.

Scholarly distinctions
Wallich received an M.D. from Aberdeen in 1819. Wallich was later appointed assistant to William Roxburgh, the East India Company's botanist in Calcutta. By 1813 he had become interested in the flora of India, and undertook expeditions to Nepal, West Hindustan, and lower Burma. During 1837 and 1838, Nathaniel Wallich served as professor of botany at Calcutta Medical College. Two years later in 1821, he was coferred the degree of honorary doctor at the University of Copenhagen and in 1826, elected member of the Royal Danish Academy of Sciences and Letters.

He was elected a Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh in 1822 his proposer being John Yule. This was followed in 1828 by his being elected a Fellow of the Royal Society of London.

Retirement, death, and legacy
Wallich had suffered deteriorating health for many years, at one time contracting cholera, and he was finally obliged to resign his post in 1846 and retire to London, where he became vice-president of the Linnean Society, of which he had been a fellow since 1818.

Wallich remained in London until his death seven years later. He died at Gower Street in Bloomsbury on 28 April 1854 aged 68. He was buried in Kensal Green Cemetery.

Part of Wallich's herbarium collections held at Kew, and known as the Wallich Herbarium, is the largest separate herbarium. Another part of the collection is the Central National Herbarium of the Botanical Survey of India in Calcutta, making in all about 20,500 specimens. Wallich is also credited with the authorship of 35 papers, mostly botanical.

Family
Wallich's was the maternal uncle of the Danish zoologist Theodore Cantor. Wallich married Juliane Marie Hals (born 1797), later known as Mary Ann, on 30 May 1812, but she died only two months later. In 1815, Wallich married Sophia Collings (1797–1876). Together, they had seven children, two of whom died in infancy. Their eldest son George Charles became a distinguished oceanographer.

Species named for Nathaniel Wallich

 * Allium wallichii (jimbur or Himalaya onion)
 * Apostasia wallichii
 * Brahmaea wallichii
 * Bulbophyllum wallichii
 * Burmannia wallichii
 * Castanopsis wallichii
 * Catreus wallichii (cheer pheasant or Wallich's pheasant)
 * Clerodendrum wallichii
 * Convolvulus wallichianus
 * Debregeasia wallichiana
 * Dioscorea wallichii
 * Diospyros wallichii
 * Dombeya wallichii
 * Dryopteris wallichiana
 * Eriophyton wallichii
 * Euphorbia wallichii
 * Geranium wallichianum

 * Heptapleurum wallichianum
 * Horsfieldia wallichii
 * Hoya wallichii
 * Ilex wallichii
 * Koilodepas wallichianum
 * Ligusticum wallichii (Szechuan lovage)
 * Lilium wallichianum
 * Meconopsis wallichii
 * Memecylon wallichii
 * Nageia wallichiana
 * Pinus wallichiana (blue pine or Bhutan pine)
 * Pteris wallichiana
 * Rhododendron wallichii
 * Rotala wallichii
 * Rubus wallichii
 * Salacca wallichiana
 * Sarcococca wallichii
 * Schima wallichii

 * Sorbus wallichii
 * Strobilanthes wallichii (Kashmir acanthus, hardy Persian shield, wild petunia or kandali)
 * Taxus wallichiana (Himalayan yew)
 * Ternstroemia wallichiana
 * Tylecodon wallichii
 * Thysia wallichii
 * Ulmus wallichiana (Himalayan elm or Kashmir elm)
 * Valeriana wallichii (Indian valerian or Tagar-ganthoda)
 * Wallichia (a genus of palms)
 * Widdringtonia wallichii (Clanwilliam cedar or Clanwilliam cypress)

Film

 * Morten Skriver (director): "Nathanial Wallich & Botanikkens Imperium", Zentropa Real (2003)

title: Nathaniel Wallich


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User talk:Jaysonm

I have a flyswatter which looks like a frog. For some reason when i try to kill a fly it does not work. Now in Newton's laws physics it should kill the fly instantly. How come this is the case. Please help me with this.

title: User talk:Jaysonm


text: Category:Flamenco musicians

title: Category:Flamenco musicians


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Salmon (color)

Salmon is a warm color ranging from light orange to pink, named after the color of salmon flesh.

The first recorded use of salmon as a color name in English was in 1776.

The actual color of salmon flesh varies from almost white to light orange, depending on their levels of the carotenoid astaxanthin, which in turn is the result of the richness of the fish's diet of krill and shrimp; salmon raised on fish farms are given non-synthetic or artificial coloring in their food.

The flesh of Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar) is lighter and oranger than that of the various Pacific salmon species (from the genus Oncorhynchus).

Variations of salmon
Salmon pink (or salmon in Crayola crayons) was introduced by Crayola in 1949. See the List of Crayola crayon colors.

Light salmon has a yellower hue and less saturation when compared to salmon.

Dark salmon resembles the color light salmon, but is grayer. Like the web colors shown above, it is used in HTML and CSS.

Terra cotta is a tone with relatively low brightness. It resembles terracotta pottery.

title: Salmon (color)


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Talk:Yale romanization

Untitled
Isn't the Yale romanization of Japanese actually JSL? WhisperToMe 05:35, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * That would contradict the information at JSL, where it says that it was created in 1987. According to this article, the Yale romanizations were created during World War II. Cohen the Bavarian 00:47, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Does anyone know how to indicate Chinese tones? Numbers?--Jusjih 03:29, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Wade-Giles uses superscripted numbers. Yale uses tone marks over vowels, as does pin-yin. P0M 06:00, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

The section on Mandarin consists largely of subjective musings concerning the mertis of the each system. It really needs to be more objectively worded and be converted to a more terse and encyclopedic style of prose.

Peter Isotalo 08:04, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

"Y" in Cantonese
Why does Yale use "y" to represent "j" in its Cantonese romanization system? This doesn't make sense. Badagnani 06:49, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

From the chart, it looks like the "y" represents /j/ (from the International Phonetic Alphabet), which is pronounced as the "y" in English. 35.11.75.128 23:38, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The observation is based on the Jyutping romanization system, where "j" represents the sound of "y." WikiPro1981X (talk) 02:07, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Japanese
How come there's no discussion of Yale romanization of Japanese? It's not discussed here and not even mentioned at Romanization of Japanese. - furrykef (Talk at me) 00:48, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I'm sorely disappointed that there is still no information on this subject here... - furrykef (Talk at me) 22:21, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

 * I agree with Furrykef. Funnily enough, the Japanese Wikipedia contains a translation of this page. anton (talk) 11:55, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

 * In the Japanese Wikipedia article, the only mention of the Japanese language itself is in the first sentence, just like the English Wikipedia. In that version, too, details are given on the Yale Romanization of Mandarin, Cantonese and Korean, but not Japanese. evin290 (talk) 05:15, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

 * So called "Yale Romanization of Japanese" is the system used by Eleanor Jorden for her books and more widely known as the "JSL romanization". Hellerick (talk) 03:58, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

 * But the article says in the lead that the Yale romanizations (for languages other than Mandarin) were created in the 1960s and 1970s. JSL was created in 1987. So either Yale romanization of Japanese is not JSL, or the article is wrong. - furrykef (Talk at me) 23:23, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Diacritic Marks in Zhuyin Fuhao and Yale
In the article is it stated that the diacritic marks (tone markings) used in the Yale system were later adopted for Hanyu Pinyin, but the the phonetic alphabet known as Zhuyin Fuhao was developed almost thirty years before the Yale system in 1913 and was the first to use that style of marking to indicate tone. Is there anything I'm missing or that I don't have totally correct? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.98.79.98 (talk) 05:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC).

Wade-Giles/Yale example
The Japanese machine gun story is cute, but 1) isn't encyclopedic, 2) isn't particularly helpful without the actual Romanization (or original Chinese), and 3) is original research unless you can quote it from somewhere. It's also confusing as all hell the way that it's currently written, and whoever stuck it back up didn't bother to rewrite it.  A comparison of the two might be handy, but a table would probably be easier to understand.  etc etc?  Also, I wonder how the sortable tables sort Chinese characters... 66.108.94.198 (talk) 22:43, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Why does this page exist?
The different Yale romanization systems are used in different circumstances, for different languages. I don't see the advantage of lumping them all together into one page. I'd prefer a separate page for Yale of Mandarin, Yale of Cantonese, Yale of Korean, etc, with this page acting as disambiguation. JohnDavidWard (talk) 17:03, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Upon rereading this comment, I think my tone sounded a little argumentative, which wasn't my intention. I really like this article and how it's come together. I'm just thinking that the Korean section in particular could benefit from being split off. But maybe it'll work just to make a separate Korean Yale article and link it here under the Korean Yale heading? JohnDavidWard (talk) 05:42, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Now split into 3 pages as suggested above. Kanguole 11:59, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

title: Talk:Yale romanization


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Sgian-dubh

The sgian-dubh – also anglicized as skene-dhu – is a small, single-edged knife (sgian) worn as part of traditional Scottish Highland dress. Originally used for eating and preparing fruit, meat, and cutting bread and cheese, as well as serving for other more general day-to-day uses such as cutting material and protection, it is now worn as part of traditional Scottish dress tucked into the top of the kilt hose with only the upper portion of the hilt visible. The sgian-dubh is normally worn on the same side as the dominant hand.

Etymology and spelling
The name comes from the Scottish Gaelic sgian-dubh. Although the primary meaning of dubh is 'black', it also has the secondary meaning of 'hidden', which is at the root of sgian-dubh, according to the stories and theories surrounding the knife's origin, in particular those associated with the Highland custom of depositing weapons at the entrance to a house prior to entering as a guest. Compare also other Gaelic word-formations such as dubh-sgeir 'underwater skerry' (literally 'black skerry'), dubh-fhacal 'riddle' (lit. 'hidden word'), dubh-cheist 'enigma' (lit. 'hidden question').

Given that sgian is feminine, the form sgian dhubh might be expected, for a feminine noun causes initial consonant lenition in a following adjective, and indeed the everyday modern Gaelic for a normal 'black knife' is sgian dhubh. However, the term for the ceremonial knife is a set-phrase containing a fossilized historical form. In older Gaelic, a system of blocked lenition meant that lenition did not occur when the adjective started with a consonant of the same group as the final consonant of the noun, and n and d are both dental in Gaelic.

Various alternative spellings are found in English, including "skene-dhu" and "skean-dhu".

The Gaelic plural, sgianan-dubha, is only rarely encountered in English. The anglicised plural is most commonly skene-dhus (in its various spellings), though skenes-dhu is also occasionally encountered.

Origins
The sgian-dubh may have evolved from the sgian-achlais, a dagger that could be concealed under the armpit. Used by the Scots of the 17th and 18th centuries, this knife was slightly larger than the average modern sgian-dubh and was carried in the upper sleeve or lining of the body of the jacket.

Courtesy and etiquette would demand that when entering the home of a friend, any concealed weapons would be revealed. It follows that the sgian-achlais would be removed from its hiding place and displayed in the stocking top held securely by the garters.

The sgian-dubh also resembles the small skinning knife that is part of the typical set of hunting knives. These sets contain a butchering knife with a 9 to 10 in blade, and a skinner with a blade of about 4 in. These knives usually had antler handles, as do many early sgian-dubhs. The larger knife is likely the ancestor of the modern dirk.

The sgian-dubh can be seen in portraits of kilted men of the mid-19th century. A portrait by Sir Henry Raeburn of Colonel Alasdair Ranaldson MacDonell of Glengarry hangs in the National Gallery of Scotland; it shows hanging from his belt on his right hand side a Highland Scottish dirk, and visible at the top of his right stocking what appears to be a nested set of two sgian-dubhs. A similar sgian-dubh is in the collection of The National Museum of Antiquities of Scotland.

Construction
The early blades varied in construction, some having a "clipped" (famously found on the Bowie knife) or "drop" point. The "spear-point" tip has now become universal. The earliest known blades, some housed in the National Museum of Scotland in Edinburgh, are made from German or Scandinavian steel, which was highly prized by the Highlanders. Scalloped filework on the back of the blade is common on all Scottish knives. A short blade of 3 to 3.5 in is typical.

Traditionally the scabbard is made of leather reinforced with wood and fitted with mounts of silver or some other metal which may be cast or engraved with designs ranging from Scottish thistles, Celtic knotwork, or heraldic elements such as a crest. While this makes for more popular and expensive knives, the sheath is hidden from view in the stocking while the sgian-dubh is worn. The sheaths of many modern sgian-dubhs are made of plastic mounted with less expensive metal fittings.

Since the modern sgian-dubh is worn mainly as a ceremonial item of dress and is usually not employed for cutting food or self-defence, blades are often of a simple (but not unglamorous) construction. These are typically made from stainless steel. The hilts used on many modern sgian-dubhs are made of plastic that has been molded to resemble carved wood and fitted with cast metal mounts and synthetic decorative stones. Some are not even knives at all, but a plastic handle and sheath cast as one piece. Other examples are luxurious and expensive art pieces, with hand-carved ebony or bog wood hilts, sterling silver fittings and may have pommels set with genuine cairngorm stones and blades of Damascus steel or etched with Celtic designs or heraldic motifs.

Legality
When worn as part of the national dress of Scotland, the sgian-dubh is legal in Scotland, England, and Wales: in Scotland under the Criminal Law (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 1995 s. 49(5)(c); in England and Wales under the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (s. 139) and the Offensive Weapons Act 1996 (s. 4).

However, the wearing of the sgian-dubh is sometimes banned in areas with zero tolerance weapons policies or heightened security concerns. For example, they were banned from a school dance in Scotland, and initially banned for the June 2014 celebration of the Battle of Bannockburn.

Air travellers are now globally required by airport security to put sgian-dubh in their checked baggage.

A Montreal bagpiper received a ticket from police for wearing his sgian-dubh in public. Police gave Jeff McCarthy a $221 ticket for sporting it in his kilt hose while performing at the McGill University convocation ceremony on 2 November 2016. McCarthy immediately contested the fine and after some delay the ticket was cancelled by The City of Montreal in May 2018, and his knife was returned.

title: Sgian-dubh


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Category:Scottish clothing

This category describes traditional and historic clothing from Scotland. Modern Scottish clothing should be categorised under Scottish fashion or Clothing companies of Scotland

title: Category:Scottish clothing


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Talk:Communards' Wall

Some of this article is incomprehensible
I've done my best to copy edit this, but some of it is incomprehensible:

 * "Versaillais" simply means "people from Versailles". I assume that in this context it has a more specific meaning. It's linked, but it's a "red link". Can someone clarify?
 * Duly clarified -- Jmabel 03:13, Aug 7, 2004 (UTC)
 * This sentence is confusing, even self-contradictory: "There were between 20,000 and 35,000 deaths, more than 43,000 prisoners, about a hundred death sentences pronounced by the military tribunals, more than 13,000 prison sentences, and close to 4,000 deportations to New Caledonia." How many deaths and by what means? "About a hundred" or "between 20,000 and 35,000" (the latter is more in line with what I remember from elsewhere). "43,000 prisoners" or "more than 13,000 prison sentences"? These numbers may refer to slightly different things, and it may all be true, but if so it is unnecessarily confusing.
 * Duly clarified -- Jmabel 17:35, Aug 8, 2004 (UTC)
 * Workers' Movement is another "red link" (how appropriate!) and in this context rather vague. Are we specifically referring to socialism? or trade and industrial unions? or a vague amalgam of all of these? Anyway, a grand phrase and a red link doesn't cut it.
 * Communards' Amnesty: another red link. Is there somewhere appropriate to link this? Maybe a history article that covers this?
 * "Jean Jaurès, although a stranger Communal memory" is completely incomprehensible.
 * Now reworded but references "...the strikers movement": again, vague. Is this a reference to a particular general strike, or what? -- Jmabel 17:35, Aug 8, 2004 (UTC)

The top-level bullet points above are Jmabel 05:44, Aug 6, 2004 (UTC); updated by Jmabel as some of this gets sorted out. Discussion follows.

 * My dictionary says that the Versaillais, or more specifically, l'armée versaillaise was "the army that supressed the Commune of 1871." I'll add that in to the article for clarification.
 * The French text is somewhat contradictory: It's written "43 000 prisonniers..." and then "13 000 peines de prison." Does anybody have an idea on how to clarify that in the translation?
 * As far as the red links, I am not sure what they refer to, nor am I sure if my translation of those terms are accurate. I'll try to do some research.
 * The Juan Juarès sentence in French is: "Juan Juarès, bien qu'étranger à la mémoire communeuse..." communeuse is not in my dictionary, so that may be why that sentence is a bit wonky.

I like what you did with the article, and especially what you did with the song and its translation at the bottom.

--Frenchgeek 21:18, Aug 6, 2004 (UTC)

 * prisonniers vs. peines de prison: is the distinction between prisoners of war and civil prisoners?
 * Does it really say "Juan Juarès", not "Jean Juarès"? In French? Communeuse is easy, just the feminine adjectival form of commune, but I'm not sure I understand the sense of "...bien qu'étranger à la mémoire...".The near-literal translation into English that is currently in the article doesn't make much sense. I assume it is a French colloquialism. I could guess, but I could guess wrong. I'd guess it simply means that he himself was too young to have any direct experience of the Commune. He would have been an adolescent in the provinces at the time. Does this sound right to you?

-- Jmabel 03:13, Aug 7, 2004 (UTC)

--Frenchgeek 05:54, Aug 8, 2004 (UTC)
 * That makes a lot of sense. And it is "Jean" Jaurès and not "Juan."

I don't think the french term is a colloquialism. I would translate it as "Jean Jaurès, though a stranger to the memory of the commune..."209.98.168.72 22:54, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be useful if there was an article on the massacre of the communes that was mentioned in this page. Myname100 02:16, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

 * It wouldn't need a separate article. If you have material, it would be a good addition here. - Jmabel | Talk 05:31, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

The sculpture is not the Communards' Wall
Trying to find the location of the Communards' Wall during my brief visit to Paris, I came across this article: Truth buried as Paris cemetery sculpture is mistaken for famous wall in which the sculpture is captioned: "Victimes des Révolutions, 1909, by Paul Moreau-Vauthier" and described: "Created by artist Paul Moreau-Vauthier 38 years after the demise of the Commune, the work, entitled Victimes des Révolutions pays tribute to those killed on both sides of such battles – whether revolutionary or enemy."

While the sculpture has been widely mistaken as a memorial to the Communards:

 * ... this claim is flatly rejected by the Association of the Friends of the Paris Commune, a group founded by survivors of the Commune. This is France’s oldest labour movement, whose creators helped rally the city to the world’s first rise to power by the working class.

 * “This (sculpture) is simply a monument to commemorate this period, but it has nothing at all to do with the authentic Mur des Fédérés (Communards’ Wall),” says the association’s secretary general, Jean-Claude Lieberman.

--Davecampbell (talk) 15:26, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

The plaque is no longer on the Communards' Wall
The plaque shown in the photo -- "Aux Morts de la commune 21-28 Mai 1871" -- was in 2011 at the Société des Amis de la Commune de 1871 in Butte aux Cailles, not at the wall itself as shown in the photo. I don't know what's currently at the wall but I will find out on my next visit in May 2023. Mergy (talk) 14:32, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mergy (talk • contribs) 14:36, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Communards' Wall


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Monarc Entertainment

MonarC Entertainment was an American record label formed by Mariah Carey, under Island Records. The name comes from Carey's well-documented fascination with butterflies. The only albums released with the Monarc Entertainment logo were Charmbracelet and The Remixes. In the summer of 2004, Carey reportedly shut down her MonarC label, as her subsequent releases were released under just Island Records alone.

Artists

 * Mariah Carey
 * Trey Lorenz

title: Monarc Entertainment


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Liu Binyan

Liu Binyan (February 7, 1925 – December 5, 2005) was a Chinese author, journalist, and political dissident.

Many of the events in Liu's life are recounted in his memoir, A Higher Kind of Loyalty.

Early life
Liu Binyan, whose family hails from Shandong province, was born in 1925, on the fifteenth of the first month of the lunar calendar, in the city of Changchun, Jilin Province. He grew up in Harbin in Heilongjiang province, where he went to school until the ninth grade, after which he had to withdraw for lack of tuition money. He persisted in reading voraciously, especially works about World War II, and in 1944 he joined the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). After 1949 he worked as a reporter and editor for China Youth News and began a long career of writing rooted in an iron devotion to social ideals, an affection for China's ordinary people, and an insistence on honest expression even at the cost of great personal sacrifice.

Outspoken Critic in Early Years of PRC
Liu Binyan published influential critiques of the consequences of Party management in the 1950s. In rapid succession he encountered recognition, approval, criticism, and finally prosecution for crimes against the Party. In October 1955, he acted as the interpreter for visiting Soviet writer Valentin Ovechkin, who later tried to help Liu Binyan by writing a letter to Zhou Enlai. Liu Binyan learned from Ovechkin's style and wrote the work "On the Bridge Worksite".

A Pair of Articles with a Big Impact
In 1956 he published "On the Bridge Worksite" (《在桥梁工地上》 "Zai qiaoliang gongdi shang"), which exposed bureaucratism and corruption, and "The Inside Story of Our Newspaper" ( 《本报内部消息》 "Benbao neibu xiaoxi"), about press control. The two works had a powerful nationwide impact.

According to Liu, "'On the Bridge Construction Site' had been the first piece to criticize the Party itself since Mao Zedong had laid down the dictum in 1942 in his 'Talks at the Yan'an Forum' that writers should 'extol the bright side of life' and 'not expose' the darkness.

Labeled a "Rightist"
In 1957, following the publication of "On the Bridge Worksite" and "The Inside Story of Our Newspaper," Liu was labeled a "rightist" and expelled from the CCP (see Hundred Flowers Campaign). The campaign against Liu Binyan was closely associated with the campaign against another social critic and author, Wang Meng, who had recently published a highly influential work, "A New Arrival at the Organization Department."

Interim Years
After being rehabilitated in the 1960s, he again fell out of favor in 1969 and was condemned to a forced labor detention camp, where he spent eight years. After being rehabilitated again, he built up a sound reputation as a reformer and a corruption watchdog. From 1957 on, he spent roughly 21 years in and out of labor camps.

Second Big Impact: People or Monsters in 1979
In 1978, after the "rightist" label was removed, Liu was re-admitted to the CCP but continued, in even starker terms than before, to write "reportage literature" (baogao wenxue) about injustices and the sufferings of ordinary people.

People or Monsters (《人妖之间》), about a corrupt official in the northern Chinese province of Heilongjiang named Wang Shouxin, created a sensation when it was published in 1979, and became a central element in the effort in China to reflect on and understand the course of Chinese social development, particularly over the course of the Cultural Revolution.

People or Monsters was widely read in China, and was broadly re-distributed following initial publication. "What was powerful about Liu's piece was it universality: everyone in China knew people like Wang Shouxin, and it made everyone think of all those who had not been brought to justice."

People or Monsters was the first in a series of works describing corruption and social problems, and was noteworthy for its use of fact-based reporting (reportage) in place of pure fiction.

"Di'erzhong Zhongcheng"(《第二种忠诚》)[A Second Kind of Loyalty] (1985) and other essays made him a household name among Chinese readers and cemented his reputation as "China's conscience." In 1985, when the Chinese Writers' Association was allowed (for the first and last time) to elect its own leaders, Liu Binyan received the second-highest number of votes to Ba Jin, the surviving May-Fourth era writer.

Liu in the United States
In December 1986, college students demonstrated in over a dozen Chinese cities in order to demand greater economic and political freedoms. Deng Xiaoping, after two straight weeks of student demonstrations, believed that the student movement was a result of "bourgeois liberalization", and named three CCP members to be expelled, including Fang Lizhi, Liu Binyan, and Wang Ruowang. Deng directed then-CCP General Secretary Hu Yaobang to expel them from the CCP, but Hu refused. Because of his refusal, Hu was dismissed from his position as General Secretary, effectively ending his period of influence within the Chinese government.

In January 1987, as part of Deng Xiaoping's crackdown on "bourgeois liberalism," Liu Binyan was again expelled from the CCP. In spring of 1988 he came to the United States for teaching and writing; then, after publicly denouncing the Chinese government for the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre, he was barred from returning to China and never saw his homeland again. Although largely isolated from his Chinese readers, he continued to write about China where his sources often came from interviewing visitors from China.

He published articles critical of Chinese corruption for the Hong Kong media, and offered commentary for the U.S. government funded Radio Free Asia (nonetheless, he was reported to "detest American capitalism" and expressed dismay at a certain Chinese dissident's support for the Iraq war ). Until the end, he remained an adherent of socialism with a human face, was critical of social inequality and consumerist cynicism in China, and stressed that the CCP, which he had joined as a youth, had many positive achievements before the Maoist crimes and its transformation into the "foul, reactionary force" that it was today.

He died in East Windsor, New Jersey on December 5, 2005 from complications due to colon cancer. He is survived by his wife, Zhu Hong.

title: Liu Binyan


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Fringilla

The genus Fringilla is a small group of finches from the Old World, which are the only species in the subfamily Fringillinae.

Taxonomy
The genus Fringilla was introduced in 1758 by the Swedish naturalist Carl Linnaeus in the tenth edition of his Systema Naturae. The genus name Fringilla is Latin for "finch". Linnaeus included 30 species in the genus (Fringilla zena was listed twice) and of these the Eurasian chaffinch (Fringilla coelebs) is considered as the type species.

Species
The genus now contains eight species:

The Eurasian chaffinch is found primarily in forest habitats, in Europe, North Africa, and western Asia; the blue chaffinches are island endemics; and the brambling breeds in the northern taiga and southern tundra of Eurasia.

The eight species are about the same size, 15 cm in length, and are similar in shape. They have a bouncing flight with alternating bouts of flapping and gliding on closed wings. They are not as specialised as other finches, eating both insects and seeds. While breeding, they feed their young on insects rather than seeds, unlike other finches.

In 2016, it was proposed that the extremely rare Gran Canaria subspecies F. teydea polatzeki be treated as a separate species, thus creating a fourth species, F. polatzeki.

title: Fringilla


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Rocket Science (band)

Rocket Science are an Australian alternative rock band from Melbourne, Victoria, formed in June 1998. They released four studio albums in their initial run: Welcome Aboard the 3C10 (2000), Contact High (2002), Eternal Holiday (2004) and Different Like You (2008), the lattermost of which was released months before their split. The band reunited in 2014, and have since released a further two studio albums: Snake (2019) and Push Play (2023).

Both Contact High and  Eternal Holiday peaked in the top 100 of the ARIA Albums Chart, while Contact High's single "Being Followed" charted at number 91 in the triple j Hottest 100 of 2002.

1998–2003: Welcome Aboard the 3C10 and Contact High
Rocket Science were formed in Melbourne in June 1998 by Dave Gray (of The Hogs) on semi-acoustic bass guitar, Paul Maybury (Freeloaders) on guitar, Roman Tucker (The Martians) on lead vocals and keyboards, and Kit Warhurst (Velvet Tongue) on drums. The group released their debut single "Burn in Hell" in 1999.

Their debut album, Welcome Aboard the 3C10, was issued on 1 May 2000 via Modular Recordings. Several tracks from their first rehearsal were used for the album.

Rocket Science's second album, Contact High, was released on 11 February 2002, which reached No. 60 on the ARIA Albums Chart. Michael Dwyer from The Age described it as "a refinement of a unique sonic formula that read something like this: schlock-horror/weird sci-fi films plus obscure garage-punk music plus massive vintage keyboard contraption complete with theremin equals Rocket Science." Carmine Pascuzzi of MediaSearch opined that "[it] shows good improvement – showcasing powerful rock and electronic grooves. They give a genuine tilt at the rock 'n' roll styling" where the group "demonstrates a purpose and ambition in delivering some infectious tracks. They are an interesting band with interesting ideas."

2004–2007: Eternal Holiday and Tucker's coma
By April 2004, the band's their third album had been recorded and Tucker suffered a serious injury from a fall and was put into an induced coma for ten days. This forced the band to cancel all scheduled performances until June. For an appearance at the Fuji Rock Festival in 2004, Maybury was replaced on guitar by Andre Warhurst (brother of Kit) when Maybury was unable to travel due to a broken leg. Andre Warhurst features in the video for the single Eternal Holiday, which was filmed in Japan during the visit. The album, Eternal Holiday was released on 15 September 2004, and produced by Jim Diamond. The album reached No. 67 on the ARIA Albums Chart.

The Australian Record Industry Association reported that after his accident Tucker had "remembered precious little of the experience, but, when the other members played him the finished product, he thought that whoever it was, it was pretty good." Dwyer reviewed the album, which showed "a noticeable shift in the creative base. Warhurst's increased input as a writer and harmony singer has resulted in a more melodic and accessible finish to an ever-tighter band chemistry." The title track was released as the album's lead single, which a FasterLouder reviewer described as, "Despite the morbid undertones that inspired the song, it carries a surprisingly upbeat feeling overall with only a slight sense of gloom seeping in through the lyrics."

The group were dropped by their label but they recorded a fourth album, Different Like You which was released on 26 July 2008. It was engineered and produced by Maybury at his own recording studio. Luke McGrath from BMA Magazine felt it was "not so much a progression as a refinement – Different Like You is as loud, as brash and as concentrated a dose of Rocket Science as any fan could want." Shane Arnold from Music Feeds described its "raw high energy songs infused with theremin and rock & roll" and the group as "easily one of the best (and craziest) live acts going around currently and any albums like this are only going to enhance their reputation."

The album was preceded by the single "Psychic Man" Trevor Block of Mess+Noise website found it as "three-and-a-half minutes of growling Seeds/Stones hybrid, bursting with energy and plenty of the Science's trademark Farfisa organ honking all over a simple borrowed riff." By August 2008 Mickey Heartbreak (The Dead South) had joined on guitar. The group disbanded in late 2008.

2014–present: Reformation and new music
In 2014, the group reformed. In October 2014 Rocket Science reconvened for a benefit concert for Mick Blood of Lime Spiders at The Tote Hotel, Collingwood. They performed at the Leaps and Bounds Festival in July 2015.

In April 2018, Rocket Science released their first single, "Lipstick Red", from their then-unnamed fifth studio album. The album, Snake, was released in August of 2019. Two further singles were released from the album: "I Hate Hate" and "Cheers Pinger". In July 2020, the band released their first live album entitled Live 2020. In September 2023, the band released their sixth studio album Push Play.

Line up
Current members
 * Dave Gray – bass guitar
 * Paul Maybury – guitar, backing vocals
 * Roman Tucker – lead vocals, keyboards, theremin
 * Kit Warhurst – drums, backing vocals

Past members
 * Mickey Heartbreak – guitar (2008)

title: Rocket Science (band)


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Expedition 3

Expedition 3 was the third expedition to the International Space Station. Commander Frank L. Culbertson Jr. was the only American crew member, and as such the only American not on Earth during the 9/11 attacks, which the crew photographed and videoed from the ISS.

Mission objectives

Research in space begun by two previous crews aboard the International Space Station (ISS) expanded during the Expedition Three mission. The third resident crew launched on 10 August 2001 on Space Shuttle Discovery during mission STS-105 and took control of the complex on 13 August 2001. The crew conducted a science-intensive increment and completed four spacewalks. The Expedition Three crew ended their 117-day residency on board the ISS on 8 December 2001 when their custom Soyuz seat-liners were transferred to Space Shuttle Endeavour for the return trip home during mission STS-108.

The Expedition Three crew of the International Space Station enjoyed a unique view of the 2001 Leonid meteor storm. "It looked like we were seeing UFOs approaching the earth flying in formation, three or four at a time," recalls astronaut Frank Culbertson. "There were hundreds per minute going beneath us, really spectacular!" News reports had warned sky watchers in advance: On 18 November 2001, Earth was due to plow through a minefield of debris shed by Comet Tempel-Tuttle. Innumerable bits of comet dust would become meteors when they hit Earth's atmosphere at 144000 mph. Experts predicted an unforgettable display ... and it came. Millions of people saw the show, but only three of them—the ones on board the space station—saw it from above. "We had to look down to see the meteors," says Culbertson. "That's because the atmosphere (where comet dust burns up) is below the station."

An international crew of three were the third crew to live aboard the International Space Station. The team was led by American Commander Frank Culbertson, and joined by Russian crewmates Vladimir Dezhurov, mission pilot, and flight engineer Mikhail Tyurin. As a part of the STS-105 mission, Discovery delivered the Expedition 3 crew to the station. During their four-month stay, the crew saw the orbital complex expand and research work grow. The Expedition 3 crew returned home on mission STS-108.

Spacewalks
All four of the spacewalks during Expedition 3 were completed using the Russian Orlan spacesuit and from the Pirs air lock on the Russian segment of the International Space Station.

Mission patch
The Expedition 3 mission patch depicts the book of space history, turning from the chapter with the Russian space station Mir and the space shuttle to the next chapter, one that will be written on the blank pages of the future by space explorers working for the benefit of the entire world. Above the book is a layout of what the station will look like when completed, docked with the space shuttle.

9/11 satellite pictures
On 11 September 2001, the International Space Station passed over New York City and astronaut Frank L. Culbertson Jr. photographed the smoke clouds billowing from the World Trade Center site in Downtown Manhattan.

title: Expedition 3