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Thomas Thirlby

Thomas Thirlby (or Thirleby; c. 1506–1570), was the first and only bishop of Westminster (1540–50), and afterwards successively bishop of Norwich (1550–54) and bishop of Ely (1554–59). While he acquiesced in the Henrician schism, with its rejection in principle of the Roman papacy, he remained otherwise loyal to the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church during the English Reformation.

Life
Thomas, was the son of John Thirleby, scrivener and town clerk of Cambridge, and Joan his wife, and was born in the parish of St. Mary the Great, Cambridge, in or about 1506. He received his education at Trinity Hall, Cambridge, graduated bachelor of the civil law in 1521, was elected a fellow of his college, and proceeded doctor of the civil law in 1528, and doctor of the canon law in 1530. It is said that while at the university he, with other learned men who were the favourers of the gospel, though they afterwards relapsed, received an allowance from Queen Anne Boleyn, the Earl of Wiltshire, her father, and Lord Rochford, her brother. In 1532 he was official to the archdeacon of Ely. He appears to have taken a prominent part in the affairs of the university between 1528 and 1534, and is supposed to have held the office of commissary. In 1534 he was appointed provost of the collegiate church of St. Edmund at Salisbury. Archbishop Cranmer and Dr. Butts, physician to the king, were his early patrons. Cranmer "liked his learning and his qualities so well that he became his good lord towards the king's majesty, and commended him to him, to be a man worthy to serve a prince, for such singular qualities as were in him. And indeed the king soon employed him in embassies in France and elsewhere: so that he grew in the king's favour by the means of the archbishop, who had a very extraordinary love for him, and thought nothing too much to give him or to do for him."

In 1533 he was one of the king's chaplains, and in May communicated to Cranmer "the king's commands" relative to the sentence of divorce from Catherine of Aragon. In 1534 he was presented by the king to the archdeaconry of Ely, and he was a member of the convocation which recognised the king's supremacy in ecclesiastical matters. Soon afterwards he was appointed dean of the chapel royal, and in 1536 one of the members of the council of the north. On 29 September 1537 the king granted to him a canonry and prebend in the collegiate church of St. Stephen, in the palace of Westminster, and on the 15th of the following month he was present at the christening of Prince Edward (afterwards Edward VI) at Hampton Court. On 2 May 1538 a royal commission was issued to Stephen Gardiner, Sir Francis Brian, and Thirlby, as ambassadors, to treat with Francis I, king of France, not only for a league of friendship, but for the projected marriage of the Princess Mary to the Duke of Orleans. The three ambassadors were recalled in August 1538. Thirlby was one of the royal commissioners appointed on 1 October 1538 to search for and examine anabaptists. On 23 December 1539 he was presented to the mastership of the hospital of St. Thomas à Becket in Southwark, and on 14 January 1539/40 he surrendered that house, with all its possessions, to the king. At this period he was prebendary of Yeatminster in the cathedral church of Salisbury, and rector of Ribchester, Lancashire. In 1540 he was prolocutor of the convocation of the province of Canterbury, and signed the decree declaring the nullity of the king's marriage with Anne of Cleves. In the same year he was one of the commissioners appointed by the king to deliberate upon sundry points of religion then in controversy, and especially upon the doctrine of the sacraments.

By letters patent dated 17 December 1540 the king erected the abbey of Westminster into an episcopal see, and appointed Thirlby the first and, as it happened, the last bishop of the new Diocese of Westminster. He was consecrated on 29 December in St. Saviour's Chapel in the cathedral church of Westminster. Soon afterwards he was appointed by the convocation to revise the translation of the epistles of St. James, St. John, and St. Jude. In January 1540–1 he interceded with the crown for the grant of the university of the house of Franciscan friars at Cambridge. In 1542 he appears as a member of the privy council, and was also despatched as ambassador to the emperor in Spain. He returned the same year. In April 1543 he took part in the revision of the "Institution of a Christian Man", and on 17 June in that year he was one of those empowered to treat with the Scots ambassador concerning the proposed marriage of Prince Edward with Mary Queen of Scots. In May 1545 he was despatched on an embassy to the emperor, Charles V. He attended the diet of Bourbourg, and on 16 January 1546–7 he was one of those who signed a treaty of peace at Utrecht. He was not named an executor by Henry VIII and consequently was excluded from Edward VI's privy council. He remained at the court of the emperor till June 1548, taking leave of Charles V at Augsburg on the 11th. Thirlby took part in the important debates in the House of Lords in December 1548 and January 1548–9 on the subject of the sacrament of the altar and the sacrifice of the mass. He declared that "he did never allow the doctrine" laid down in the communion office of the proposed first Book of Common Prayer, stating that he mainly objected to the book as it stood because it abolished the "elevation" and the "adoration". When Somerset expressed to Edward VI some disappointment at Thirlby's attitude, the young king remarked, "I expected nothing else but that he, who had been so long time with the emperor, should smell of the Interim." He voted against the third reading of the act of uniformity on 15 January 1548–9, but enforced its provisions in his diocese after it had been passed. On 12 April 1549 he was in the commission for the suppression of heresy, and on 10 November in that year he was ambassador at Brussels with Sir Philip Hoby and Sir Thomas Cheyne. On 29 March 1550 Thirlby resigned the bishopric of Westminster into the hands of the king, who thereupon dissolved it, and reannexed the county of Middlesex, which had been assigned for its diocese, to the see of London. While bishop of Westminster he is said to have "impoverished the church."

On 1 April, following his resignation of the see of Westminster, he was constituted bishop of Norwich. Bishop Burnet intimates that Thirlby was removed from Westminster to Norwich, as it was thought he could do less mischief in the latter see, "for though he complied as soon as any change was made, yet he secretly opposed everything while it was safe to do." In January 1550–1 he was appointed one of the commissioners to correct and punish all anabaptists, and such as did not duly administer the sacraments according to the Book of Common Prayer; and on 15 April 1551 one of the commissioners to determine a controversy respecting the borders of England and Scotland. On 20 May following he was in a commission to treat for a marriage between the king and Elizabeth, daughter of Henry II of France. He was in 1551 appointed one of the masters of requests, and he was also one of the numerous witnesses on the trial of Gardiner, bishop of Winchester, which took place in that year. In January and March 1551–2 his name was inserted in several commissions appointed to inquire what sums were due to the king or his father for sale of lands; to raise money by the sale of crown lands to the yearly value of 1,000£; and to survey the state of all the courts erected for the custody of the king's lands. In April 1553 he was again appointed ambassador to the Emperor Charles V, at whose court he remained until April 1554. On his return from Germany he brought with him one Remegius, who established a paper mill in this country—perhaps at Fen Ditton, near Cambridge.

At heart a Roman Catholic, Thirlby was soon high in Queen Mary's favour, and in July 1554 he was translated from Norwich to Ely, the temporalities of the latter see being delivered to him on 15 September. He was one of the prelates who presided at the trials of Bishop Hooper, John Rogers, Rowland Taylor, and others, for heresy; and in February 1554–5 he was appointed, together with Anthony Browne, viscount Montague, and Sir Edward Carne, a special ambassador to the pope, to make the queen's obedience, and to obtain a confirmation of all those graces which Cardinal Pole had granted in his name. He returned to London from Rome on 24 August 1555 with a bull confirming the queen's title to Ireland, which document he delivered to the lord treasurer on 10 December. A curious journal of this embassy is printed in Lord Hardwicke's State Papers.

After the death of the lord chancellor, Gardiner, on 12 November 1555, Mary proposed to confer on Thirlby the vacant office, but Philip objected, and Archbishop Heath was appointed. In January 1555–6 Thirlby took a part in the degradation of his old friend Archbishop Cranmer. "He was observed to weep much all the while; he protested to Cranmer that it was the most sorrowful action of his whole life, and acknowledged the great love and friendship that had been between them; and that no earthly consideration but the queen's command could have induced him to come and do what they were then about." On 22 March following he was one of the seven bishops who assisted at the consecration of Cardinal Pole as archbishop of Canterbury. In 1556 he was appointed to receive Osep Napea Gregoriwitch (ru), ambassador from the emperor of Russia. Thirlby appears to have sanctioned the burning of John Hullier for heresy in 1556, but only two others, William Wolsey and Robert Pygot of Wisbech, suffered death in his diocese on account of their religion, and it has been said that "Thirleby was in no way interested therein; but the guilt thereof must be shared between Dr. Fuller, the chancellor, and other commissioners." In April 1558 Thirlby was sent to the north to inquire the cause of the quarrel between the Earls of Northumberland and Westmoreland. He and Dr. Nicholas Wotton were Queen Mary's commissioners to treat with France respecting the restoration of Calais and the conclusion of peace. Queen Elizabeth sent a new commission to them at Cambray in January 1558–9, and instructed the Earl of Arundel to act in conjunction with them. The commissioners succeeded in concluding peace, and returned home in April 1559. The queen is said to have cast upon Thirlby the entire blame of the eventual loss of Calais. Queen Mary had appointed him one of her executors.

On the assembling of Queen Elizabeth's first parliament Thirlby sent his proxy, he being then absent on his embassy in France. On 17 April 1559 the bill for restoring ecclesiastical jurisdiction to the crown was committed to him and other peers. He opposed this measure on the third reading. He also dissented from the bill for uniformity of common prayer. He refused to take the oath of supremacy, and for this reason he and Archbishop Heath were deposed from their sees on 5 July 1559 at the lord-treasurer's house in Broad Street.

According to Bentham, Thirlby was a considerable benefactor to the see of Ely because by his interest he procured from the crown for himself and his successors the patronage of the prebends in the cathedral; but Dr. Cox, his immediate successor, asserted that although Thirlby received £500 from Bishop Goodrich's executors for dilapidations, he left his houses, bridges, lodes, rivers, causeways, and banks, in great ruin and decay, and spoiled the see of a stock of one thousand marks, which his predecessors had enjoyed since the reign of Edward III. He also alleged that Thirlby never came into his diocese.

After his deprivation Thirlby had his liberty for some time, but in consequence of his persisting in preaching against the Reformation, he was on 3 June 1560 committed to the Tower, and on 25 February 1560–1 he was excommunicated. In September 1563 he was removed from the Tower on account of the plague to Archbishop Parker's house at Beaksbourne. In June 1564 he was transferred to Lambeth Palace, and Parker, who is said to have treated Thirlby with great courtesy and respect, even permitted him to lodge for some time at the house of one Mrs. Blackwell in Blackfriars. He died in Lambeth Palace on 26 August 1570. He was buried on the 28th in the chancel of Lambeth church, under a stone with a brief Latin inscription in brass. In making a grave for the burial of Archbishop Cornwallis in March 1783, the body of Bishop Thirlby was discovered in his coffin, in a great measure undecayed, as was the clothing. The corpse had a cap on its head and a hat under its arm. His portrait is in the print of the delivery of the charter of Bridewell.

title: Thomas Thirlby


text: Category:1911 films

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Category:1911 films


text:
Emilio Visconti Venosta

Emilio, marquis Visconti-Venosta (22 January 1829 – 24 November 1914) was an Italian statesman. He is one of the longest-serving Ministers of Foreign Affairs in the history of Italy.

Biography
Visconti-Venosta was born in Milan, in the Kingdom of Lombardy–Venetia. He studied jurisprudence at the University of Pavia.

A disciple of Mazzini, he took part in all the anti-Austrian conspiracies until the ineffectual rising at Milan on 6 February 1853, of which he had foretold the failure, induced him to renounce his Mazzinian allegiance. Continuing, nevertheless, his anti-Austrian propaganda, he rendered good service to the national cause, but being molested by the Austrian police, was obliged in 1859 to escape to Turin, and during the war with Austria of that year was appointed by Cavour royal commissioner with the Garibaldian forces.

Elected deputy in 1860, he accompanied Luigi Carlo Farini on diplomatic missions to Modena and Naples, and was subsequently despatched to London and Paris to acquaint the British and French governments with the course of events in Italy. As a recompense for the tact displayed on this occasion, he was given by Cavour a permanent appointment in the Italian foreign office, and was subsequently appointed under-secretary of state by Count Pasolini. Upon the latter's death he became Minister of Foreign Affairs (March 24, 1863) in the Minghetti cabinet, in which capacity he negotiated the September Convention for the evacuation of Rome by the French troops.

Resigning office with Minghetti in the autumn of 1864, he was in March 1866 sent by la Marmora as minister to Constantinople, but was almost immediately recalled and reappointed foreign minister by Ricasoli. Assuming office on the morrow of the Italian defeat at Custoza, he succeeded in preventing Austria from burdening Italy with a proportion of the Austrian imperial debt, in addition to the Venetian debt proper. The fall of Ricasoli in February 1867 deprived him for a time of his office, but in December 1869 he entered the Lanza-Sella cabinet as foreign minister, and retained his portfolio in the succeeding Minghetti cabinet until the fall of the Right in 1876.

During this long period he was called upon to conduct the delicate negotiations connected with the Franco-Prussian War, the Capture of Rome by the Italians, and the consequent destruction of the temporal power of the Pope, the Law of Guarantees and the visits of Victor Emmanuel II to Vienna and Berlin. Upon the occasion of his marriage with the daughter of the Marquis Alfieri di Sostegno, grand-niece of Cavour, he was created marquis by the king. For a time he remained a member of the parliamentary opposition, and in 1886 was nominated senator.

In 1894, after eighteen years' absence from active political life, he was chosen to be Italian arbitrator in the Bering Sea question, and in 1896 once more accepted the portfolio of foreign affairs in the Di Rudinì cabinet at a juncture when the disastrous First Italo-Ethiopian War and the indiscreet publication of an Abyssinian Green Book had rendered the international position of Italy exceedingly difficult. His first care was to improve Franco-Italian relations by negotiating with France a treaty with regard to Tunis. During the negotiations relating to the Cretan question and the Graeco-Turkish War he secured for Italy a worthy part in the European Concert and joined Lord Salisbury in saving Greece from the loss of Thessaly.

Resigning office in May 1898, on a question of internal policy, he once more retired to private life.

In May 1899 he again assumed the management of foreign affairs in the second Pelloux cabinet, and continued to hold office in the succeeding Saracco cabinet until its fall in February 1901. During this period his attention was devoted chiefly to the Boxer Rebellion and to the maintenance of the equilibrium in the Mediterranean and the Adriatic. In regard to the Mediterranean he established an Italo-French agreement by which France tacitly undertook to leave Italy a free hand in Tripoli, and Italy not to interfere with French policy in the interior of Morocco; and, in regard to the Adriatic, he came to an understanding with Austria-Hungary guaranteeing the status quo in Albania.

Prudence (dubbed as "clean hands policy"){{efn|On the other side, the "clean hands" policy in diplomacy was judged, in next century, "a dramatic cultural heritage, which Italy should escape now more than ever": {{cite journal|last1=Buonomo|first1=Giampiero|title=Elezioni europee e nuovo trattato di Lisbona|journal=L'Ago e Il Filo Edizione Online|date=2013|url=https://www.questia.com/projects#!/project/89409117|access-date=2016-04-10|archive-date=2012-08-01|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20120801002834/http://www.questia.com/projects#!/project/89409117|url-status=dead}} and sagacity, coupled with unequalled experience of foreign policy, enabled him to assure to Italy her full portion of influence in international affairs, and secured for himself the unanimous esteem of European cabinets. In recognition of his services he was created Knight of the Annunziata by Victor Emmanuel III on the occasion of the birth of Princess Yolanda of Savoy (June 1, 1901).

In February 1906 he was Italian delegate to the Algeciras Conference. The purpose of the conference was to mediate the First Moroccan Crisis between France and Germany, and to assure the repayment of a large loan made to the Sultan in 1904. After this conference, Visconti-Venosta retired from public life. On account of his great experience, profound legal and political culture and sound judgment, he was often consulted by the Italian government, especially on questions of foreign affairs. He explicitly approved of Italy's declaration of neutrality on the outbreak of World War I. He died in Rome on 24th November 1914.{{sfn|Chisholm|1922}}

title: Emilio Visconti Venosta


text:
Barry Jones

Barry Jones may refer to:

 * Barry Jones (actor) (1893–1981), British-born actor
 * Barry Jones (Australian politician) (born 1932), member of the ALP
 * Barry Jones, Baron Jones (born 1938), British politician
 * Barry Jones (Canadian politician) (born 1940)
 * Barry Jones (bishop) (1941–2016), ninth Bishop of Christchurch, New Zealand
 * Barry Jones (cricketer) (born 1955), English cricketer; played for Worcestershire, 1976–1980
 * Barry Jones (baseball) (born 1963), former Major League Baseball pitcher
 * Barry Jones (outfielder) (born 1965), American professional baseball player and manager (See 1990 Caribbean Series)
 * Barry Jones (footballer) (born 1970), formerly of Wrexham and York City
 * Barry Jones (boxer) (born 1974), British boxer and WBO Super featherweight Champion
 * Barry Jones (magician) (born 1980), Scottish magician
 * Barry Jones (executive), former chief executive of the Australian Petroleum Production and Exploration Association

title: Barry Jones


text:
German submarine U-9

U-9 may refer to one of the following German submarines:

 * SMU U-9, was the lead ship of the Type U 9 class of submarines; launched in 1910 and served in the First World War until surrendered on 26 November 1918, and famous for the action of 22 September 1914
 * During the First World War, Germany also had these submarines with similar names:
 * SMU UB-9, a Type UB I submarine launched in 1915 and stricken on 19 February 1919
 * SMU UC-9, a Type UC I submarine launched in 1915 and sunk 20 October 1915
 * GS U-9 (1935), a Type IIB submarine that served in the Second World War and sank on 20 August 1944
 * GS U-9 (S188), a Type 205 submarine of the Bundesmarine that was launched in 1967; decommissioned in 1993; now a museum ship in Speyer, see Technikmuseum Speyer.

U-9 or U-IX may also refer to:
 * U-IX, an Austro-Hungarian Navy submarine

title: German submarine U-9


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dead and gone

Dead and gone was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE

Dead and gone are an obscure record company who have released 6 (count 'em) records; probably self-promotion. Dunc_Harris|☺ 12:40, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC). Oh and PS, amg does know a a band by the name of Dead and Gone, but no label. Dunc_Harris|☺ 12:40, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC) This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like other '/delete' pages is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.
 * Ad, non-notable, I say make it dead and gone —siroχo 14:15, Jul 17, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete: Ad. We still don't have good articles on some historic labels and the race labels.  No point in pushing aggressive self-promoters. 15:56, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * No link to their website; it might just be a fan of Dead and Gone that created the page. In any case, I think it fails the notability test.  Delete.  --Ardonik 18:33, Jul 17, 2004 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Canadian Labour Congress

Untitled
I'm new to Wikipedia and this is my first article.

Comments??

Carol Wall and updates
The article needs to be cleaned and updated post convention. I think the bit about Carol Wall should be deleted. She didn't win and it wasn't that noteworthy in the first place. What do people think?

 * I think that it certainly needs to be cleaned up and updated - both post convention, and just in general. If I have time, I'll give it a try.  However, I'm not sure that it's necessarily the right call to just delete the bit about Wall's candidacy -- I think that having a relatively unknown candidate coming from nowhere to get over 37% of the vote at the convention floor, with very little backing from any of the major affiliates was a sign of a significant grassroots alienation, and not something that can be brushed off as not that newsworthy. IanClysdale 21:47, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

infobox
I added an infobox. It's under construction at WikiProject Organized Labour. Your comments/additions would be appreciated. --Bookandcoffee 01:50, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The infobox has been replaced with the actual Infobox Union template. --Bookandcoffee 07:14, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Assessment
I have assessed this article as a Start Class, as it contains more detail and organization than would be expected of a Stub, although it needs more referencing and in-line citations. I have assessed this as Mid importance, as it is a general and overarching body within Canada. Cheers, CP 17:32, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

CLC Also Refers to Central Labor Council
Not sure where to put this, but wanted to clear something up about the CLC page.

While yes, the "CLC" page is the Canadian Labor Congress, in the US the AFL-CIO operates through a quasi-autonomous structure of local geographical jurisdictions called Central Labor Councils (CLCs), as well as Federations of Labor, Area Labor Federations, and Regional Labor Federations. However, in the Labor movement we just call them all CLCs.

Thus, when you see AFL-CIO CLC in the affiliation section of Unions, the CLC designation refers to the individual Union itself as a Central Labor Council. All of the Locals of a given Union create the National/International Union, and through elections internally they select their Leadership. Then, that Leadership is seated on the AFL-CIO Executive Council after a vote by the National AFL-CIO General/International/National Presidents.

Hope this helps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CFCD:2D30:25C5:B51B:BD86:63D3 (talk) 17:12, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

title: Talk:Canadian Labour Congress


text: Category:British television writers

title: Category:British television writers


text:
Talk:Devil's advocate

I would rather not translate advocatus diaboli into "Devil's Lawyer". I think it's better left as "Devil's Advocate" because in this case advocate derives from the original latin meaning of to speak for someone (as the english word advocacy does)

 * Etymology isn't meaning.75.11.191.119 (talk) 05:08, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

What does "since then" mean?
This page is vague about the chronology. During what time period was the title of Defensor Fidei used? Until the Second Vatican Council? Or until some time in the late medieval period? Or what? The second paragraph begins with the words "since then", as if some period of time had been specified. But it has not. Can someone clear this up? Michael Hardy 17:39, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

We hardly need the phrase, so I've removed it. But we do still need to get the date of when this stopped! (Probably Vatican II, but that's just an educated guess on my part.) -- Toby Bartels 16:33, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well, the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia speaks of it in the present tense, so that's some clue. -- Toby Bartels 16:34, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Also, the term Fidei Defensor was commonly used int he representation of Queen Elizabeth of England, Ireland, and France. It was represented along with her coat of arms, sot hat gives some sort of starting date, but I'm sure it goes way back before then. -- Zeerus 9:55, 2 Feb, 2005

See Fidei defensor. Awarded to Henry VIII by Pope Leo X and revoked by Pope Paul III and then awarded to Henry VIII by the English Parliament Kevin Wykes 28 June 2005 12:54 (UTC)

"Such a dramatic increase suggests that the office of the Devil's Advocate had served to reduce the number of canonizations by complicating the process." - It suggests no such thing, unless you take the POV that there should be lots more saints, and the DA was a hinderance. It's kinda like taking away the role of the defense attorney and saying that the increase in convictions showed that the defense attorney role was a mere 'complication.'

Angel's advocate - merge?
I've never heard the phrase "angel's advocate" before, but it did seem to turn up a respectable amount of Google hits. But at its current stub form, I think it's worth merging in here instead of leaving it as a separate article, since it would seem to have evolved directly from "devil's advocate" and seems to be less commonly used. BryanG(talk) 23:08, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It's the polar opposite, I don't think a merge is appropriate, especially given the multiple contexts of this term. --badlydrawnjeff talk 00:38, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, looking at it again, I disagree with myself! Never mind, then... BryanG(talk) 07:25, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Pope Sixtus V
Pope Sixtus V was pope during 1587 when this post was created so does that mean that that we can credit him with creating it? --Kick the cat 12:42, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Rhetorics
if you only use your opponents dumbest arguments, to "discredit" his position as redicolous or troll-like, is there a special name for this technic? -- 172.176.152.162 11:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * If I understand your question correctly, it seems like you're referring to Straw man argumentation, albeit a specific form thereof. shidobu 02:28, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * That's not really what the IP is asking (although they may have worded their question poorly). A straw man argument is an argument that your opponent does not truly hold; in contrast, "your opponent[']s dumbest arguments" are really held by them. I seem to recall reading a real term for the rhetorical trick (not necessarily strictly fallacy) of focussing only on your opponent's poorest arguments, but I cannot remember what it was; "picking low-hanging fruit" is the best I can come up with. If your opponent is a group, and you only use the dumbest arguments that any member of the group has ever forwarded, the technique can effectively be a straw-man-type argument, though, with an element of "nutpicking", as most (or even almost all) members of the opposing group will not actually use the poor arguments that you are refuting. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 20:57, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Is this even English?
"This practice is generally an instructional technique in which one person argues a position that another is less familiar with, thereby teaching proper argument." Please fix, thanks. 205.228.74.12 08:23, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Steven Colbert
What about its use in comedy such as Steven Colbert's Colbert Report. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abaac (talk • contribs) 22:51, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Cuban Missile Crisis brought this term into current usage
My understanding of this term is that it was brought into modern usage by the interaction of Kennedy and his staff.

The historical meaning related to religion is certainly not in the current mindset.

Can anyone expound on this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael.Urban (talk • contribs) 17:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Promotor Fidei = Advocatus Diaboli
Foofighter20x changed this page in February to say that Promotor Fidei and Advocatus Diaboli were opposites, i.e. that the Promotor Fidei was "God's advocate". This seems to be false, so I put back a clearer version of what was there before and added a reference to the Catholic Encyclopedia. Colin Watson (talk) 01:59, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

 * But if they're not opposites then they are the same? It seems to me that the Postulator has the role of the Prosecutor, trying to prove that the candidate is "guilty" of being saintly, so the Promotor Fidei plays the Defense, trying to show reasonable doubts about it. If this is so, then the role of "Devil's advocate" is still in place. Does it make sense? Prudencio Clemente (talk) 01:20, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Colin Watson's reading of the Catholic Encyclopedia. The promoter and the devil's advocate were the same person. Since the promoter office is still in existance, and the promoter is also charged with the role of devil's advocate, the "function" or "office?" of the devil's advocate is still in existance. Nicholascarew (talk) 14:50, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Christopher Hitchens
I think if the mention of Christopher Hitchens is kept, a neutral 3rd party source is required. --Rob (talk) 02:50, 2 August 2008 (UTC) buller man —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.110.97.155 (talk) 23:52, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I just finished Hitchens' "Hitch 22" where he reasserts his claim that Pope John Paul II "did away" with the office of devil's advocate as one of the changes he made to Catholic canon law/doctrine in 1983. The amendments to canon law/doctrine made in 1983 are available on the Vatican's website in English. I have scoured the site and see nothing dealing with the abolition of the devil's advocate "position." Footnote 2 in this article is the only source for this proposition, other than Hitchens' bald assertion. The link is dead. Shouldn't there be a link to the 1983 revision of canon law that did away with the position on this page?

It appears that the promoter and the devil's advocate were (based on the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia available on line) the same person. The promoter office is still in existance, so the devil's advocate position must be too, as they are the same person. Finally, I find the idea that the Vatican would call Hitchens into a meeting on Mother Theresa's qualifications for canonization ludicrous. I agree with Hitch that she was a grifter BTW. I just wish he wouldn't make things up as I am sure he is doing here. Fabricating stuff doesn't help his "case" for the absence of a deity or the absurdity of RC beliefs. I took his book "Hitch 22" out of the library and have returned it, so I can't cite the page, but in his latest version of this strange encounter, Hitchens claims that Pope John Paul II "surreptitiously" did away with the devil's advocate office in 1983. If the Pope acted "surreptitiously," it may explain why there is no mention of this supposed change in canon law in the actual text. On the other hand, while I am not an expert by any means on canon law, I have some familiarity with it and am not certain how any pope acts "surreptitiously." I would think that the Pope would at least have to issue some decree or something to change canon law. Nicholascarew (talk) 14:27, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

I checked the article written by Hitchens. It does support the claim in the article that he was called by the Vatican to testify. He writes: "I told my journalistic inquirers what I had told the panel of priests and monsignors before whom I testified: it's really none of my business who is beatified or canonized by the Roman Catholic Church." He is clearly claiming that he testified before a panel of Catholic officials. The full text of the magazine, Free Inquiry, is accessible via a proprietary ProQuest database. Clausen (talk) 23:01, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Hitchens Removal
This edit has removed all mention of Hitchens being an devils advocate https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Devil%27s_advocate&oldid=698018038 2404:130:0:1000:8DCA:40F5:A3AF:2581 (talk) 23:19, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Where did this article go?
Apparently the references were pending when the previous version was made, the third edit from the top showing the full article, but why was the rest of the article deleted in the next two? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.42.170.11 (talk) 16:18, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Origins
I didn't remove it, but I can see why it was removed. The old article made an unfounded assertion regarding the origin of the phrase. The work cited as indicating the origin of the phrase does not state the origin, but rather states that Promotor Fidei is commonly referred to as the Devil's Advocate; which does not exclude the possibility that the term Devil's Advocate was not invented for the Promotor Fidei but before it.

The Online Oxford English Dictionary draws the same connection, giving it some credence, but it still does not state that the Promotor Fidei is the original Devil's Advocate. Many other online sources refer to the Promotor Fidei as the original Devil's Advocate, or give Promotor Fidei as a secondary definition of Devil's Advocate; but none reputable state that it is the origin. There seems to be a general consensus that this is the origin among less reputable sources. I do not have a copy of an etymological dictionary such as the complete Oxford English Dictionary; but I'd like to see what the OED has to say on the matter.

I agree that an etymology is sorely needed on this page, but since I don't know what that etymology is for certain, I cannot add one myself.

Further, if the Promotor Fidei paragraph is eventually restored, the section on criticism of the removal of the office should be removed since it is irrelevant to the original article.—Spezied (talk) 14:57, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Common Parlance vs. original meaning
Would it be of use to disclose at the very top (in the 'definition'), that the common parlance meaning has strayed significantly from the originial meaning? Clearly, according to "Origins," the Devil's Advocate was there to tear down an opposing viewpoint or position with damning evidence, NOT to mock/elevate that opposing viewpoint by taking their position for rhetorical purpose. From Fowler's Modern English Usage:

 * ...far from being the whitewasher of the wicked, the devil's advocate is the blackener of the good.

ref. http://books.google.com/books?id=Vr7muDFR6j4C&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=far+from+being+the+whitewasher+of+the+wicked,+the+devil's+advocate+is+the+blackener+of+the+good&source=bl&ots=F42Y1t9OoY&sig=gagzAafB9mxYS0VQ_Ud0XxCWKWo&hl=en&ei=KUc4TfLhH4XcgQfD1pi9CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=far%20from%20being%20the%20whitewasher%20of%20the%20wicked%2C%20the%20devil's%20advocate%20is%20the%20blackener%20of%20the%20good&f=false

For an example, arguing pro vs. contra in the very current debate about "Tiger Mother" Amy Chua's parenting style, if I wanted to weaken the position of reasonable, modern day "good" parents (who are up in arms about the Tiger Mother), I'd play Devil's Advocate by relating a story about how modern parents will drive their SUV down a 1/4 mile driveway to  pick up their kids from the school bus stop - instead of letting them walk and enjoy the sunshine (not to mention they should have walked or cycled all the way from school). As D.A. I would be arguing in favor of Chua's draconian parenting style, but only insofar as I was tearing down the "good" parents, by exhibiting some of their faults. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Retro cycler (talk • contribs) 14:54, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Inconsistent spelling
It seems both British and non-British English readers have edited this page. For example, there's both canonisation and canonization.

87.113.130.185 (talk) 09:48, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Former position? I believe that is incorrect.
This page affirms that Devil's advocate is a "former" position. However, it sources no official vatican statement, news or the sort as proof. In fact, a later paragraph states that while in 1983 the role was reduced in power and had some changes made to it, it does not mention what year it was abolished, and even says that in 2003, the Church brough critics to argue against saints canonizations. So? Which one is correct? Is it a former position, or one that still exists but has lost most of its power? 2001:8A0:7B61:1B00:95B3:3310:C482:FB98 (talk) 12:09, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

 * Good question and I don't know the answer. Britannica calls it a former position, but I see some sources saying the idea that Jean Paul II removed the position is a misconception. It looks like someone was appointed to it as recently as 2012. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:44, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

The position of Promotor Fidei definitely still exists - Pope Francis appointed one this year. Link (in Italian, unfortunately - but Google Translate is clear enough for this) from the Dicastery for the Causes of Saints official website:http://www.causesanti.va/it/notizie/notizie-2023/nomina-promotore-della-fede-del-dicastero.html

I think "devil's advocate" and even the Latin "advocatus diaboli" was always a *nickname* not the official position. It is quite plausible that the nickname is no longer used and devil's advocate now has only a general/metaphorical meaning, but the position is not gone.

Vultur~enwiki (talk) 17:11, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

In fact it might be better to say in the first sentence of the article that the term "originated as a nickname for the Promoter of the Faith, an official position [etc]..." or "is a formerly common nickname for the Promoter of the Faith, an official position [etc].."

The current wording "a former official position of the Catholic Church, the Promoter of the Faith" implies both 1) Devil's Advocate was an official name for the position, and 2) the position no longer exists. 2) is definitely false and I think 1) is also. The old Catholic Encyclopedia (which predates even the 1917 Code of Canon Law, much less the 1983 one) calls "advocatus diaboli" a "popular title" and says that Promoter Fidei is "his official title". Vultur~enwiki (talk) 17:17, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

grammar or misquote?
how does the phrase "argued against the canonization (sainthood) of a candidate in to uncover any character flaws or misrepresentation of the evidence favoring canonization". scan? the "in to" following the word candidate seem to be a typo. 71.241.142.63 (talk) 12:35, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Devil's advocate


text:
List of Delaware state parks

The U.S. state of Delaware has 17 state parks. Each of the parks is operated and maintained by the Delaware Division of Parks and Recreation, a branch of the Department of Natural Resources and Environmental Control (DNREC), although one state park, First State Heritage Park, is managed by the Division of Parks and Recreation in partnership with other city and state agencies.

Each of Delaware's three counties has at least one state park, with New Castle having the most. Wilmington State Parks, despite being administratively managed as a single unit, is further broken down into several smaller parks. The state park system includes over 26,000 acres of land and over 160 miles of trails. It is possible to faintly view the Milky Way from 10 of the 17 state parks.

In 2015, Delaware State Parks won the Gold Medal honoring the best state parks system in the country from the National Recreation and Park Association. It was the tenth state to win the award since it was started in 1997.

Overview
Delaware's oldest public lands date back to 1682 when, upon his arrival as proprietor of the colony, William Penn instructed his deputies to set aside land that is now Cape Henlopen State Park and its natural resources to be held in trust for the common good of all the citizens. The earliest attempts at legislating protection of a formalized public parks system were the result of efforts by conservationist William Poole Bancroft, who recognized the beauty of northern Delaware and in the late 19th century became determined to see it preserved for the benefit of future generations. Bancroft also donated many acres of his own land to form public parks as well as created a trust to manage and acquire land for the development of parks after his death.

Several of the state parks in northern Delaware were at one time either partially or wholly owned by estates belonging to members of the Du Pont family that were acquired by the state after the deaths of family members. Several other state parks throughout Delaware were converted from former military installations that were determined to be surplus property.

Three of northern Delaware's state parks (Alapocas Run, Brandywine Creek, and Wilmington) exist to protect pieces of the historic Brandywine River, which was once heavily utilized by local industry. Four of southern Delaware's state parks (Cape Henlopen, Delaware Seashore, Fenwick Island, and Holts Landing) preserve stretches of ocean and bay beaches, which are very popular in summer months.

title: List of Delaware state parks


text:
Talk:Muritai School

Untitled
From VfD:

A primary school (presumably that is what years 1 to 8 refers to; even with 11+ equalling 1st year, a secondary school only reaches the upper sixth form). The one thing perhaps saving it is its age, dating from 1897 which for a school in the colony of New Zealand probably makes it one of the oldest in the country. Dunc_Harris|☺ 12:43, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * If we can have dozens of articles about high schools, why not primary schools? Exploding Boy 14:12, Jul 17, 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep: This page needs work, but the information here is useful. It deserves to be improved, not deleted. - Chris Jefferies 15:15, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * The policy debate is yet to occur, to my knowledge, but the "rule" has been HS's stay and primaries go. I'd argue for notability.  This one might be notable, but the article needs to be rewritten to push the notability.  Abstain, hoping for notability. Geogre 15:59, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * I'm against most schools, but if high schools are ok then junior high schools and elementary schools should be ok too. Exploding Boy 07:49, Jul 18, 2004 (UTC)
 * A policy debate simply has to be started. All we have now is precedent.  I'm trying to at least be consistent within my own standards: notable ok, non-notable not, whatever the level.  The first elementary school in Australia would be fine.  Plan B State College would not, despite being a college. Geogre 13:18, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Geogre, with all due respect -- the last thing we need is yet another interminable policy debate. "Keep stuff that's notable" covers schools, bands, conlangs, you name it. Using the notability test also forestalls arguments that start "If high schools are OK" and ends "then every day care center is OK". No vote. Wile E. Heresiarch 19:02, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Thank you. A lot of us have been stumbling around.  If notability is the standard, then that's all I need to hear.  It's all a lot of folks want to hear, I think.  I surely don't want a policy debate, but it seemed like there were criteria other than that that had been set up by desseutude.  Notability it is!  Geogre 22:00, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep: As a significant school first of its type and place, it should have an entry. Geogre 13:19, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. The school has a long history, it's state-run (so the article's not an ad), and with pictures and a bit of history, the article could be part of History of New Zealand or  .  --Ardonik 18:39, Jul 17, 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. What Ardonik said. Ambivalenthysteria 08:09, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete all schools unless there is actually something notable about them.   — Chameleon My page/My talk 13:11, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * I've lost the battle of high schools, which, IMHO, should also be deleted, but I will fight the good fight to get rid of lower level schools. Delete this one.  RickK 20:29, Jul 18, 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Useful information. bbx 06:20, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Weak keep- early appearance and longevity make it at least somewhat notable. Can someone check if it was, by chance, the first in the region? If so, definitely worth keeping. FZ 19:39, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Clarifying- I meant, if it's notable, such as if it were the first public primary school in the Wellington region, then it should be kept. Does anyone out there have dates on the development of primary education in New Zealand? If it's the first, keep it; otherwise, it's probably not worth it. FZ 14:00, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Non-notable.  Schools are not automatically notable, nor should Wikipedia's inclusion criteria be waived for schools.  A school is no more automatically notable than is a person, company, software product, etc.  If it isn't notable, it doesn't belong.  This is the institutional equivalent of a vanity page.  SWAdair | Talk  07:14, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

end moved discussion

 * Perhaps notable due to rumours of a complete year group failing in literacy & pervasive bullying? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.236.142.251 (talk) 03:56, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

title: Talk:Muritai School


text: User talk:82.196.97.229

title: User talk:82.196.97.229


text:
User:Fvdham

My main interest is (history of) warfare.

title: User:Fvdham


text:
Ajuga

Ajuga, also known as bugleweed, ground pine, carpet bugle, or just bugle, is a genus of flowering plants in the Ajugeae tribe of the mint family Lamiaceae. There are over 60 species of annual or perennial, mostly herbaceous plants. They are native to Europe, Asia, Africa, and Australia.

They grow to 5–50 cm (2–20 in) tall, with opposite leaves.

Species
Species accepted within Ajuga include:
 * Ajuga arabica P.H.Davis – Saudi Arabia
 * Ajuga australis R.Br. - Australia
 * Ajuga bombycina Boiss. – Aegean Islands, Turkey
 * Ajuga boninsimae Maxim. – Ogasawara-shoto (Bonin Islands of Japan)
 * Ajuga brachystemon Maxim. – Uttarakhand, Nepal, northern India
 * Ajuga campylantha Diels – Yunnan
 * Ajuga campylanthoides C.Y.Wu & C.Chen – Tibet, central China
 * Ajuga chamaecistus Ging. ex Benth. – Iran, Afghanistan
 * Ajuga chamaepitys (L.) Schreb. – central + southern Europe, central + southwestern Asia
 * Ajuga chasmophila P.H.Davis – Syria
 * Ajuga ciliata Bunge – China, Korea, Japan
 * Ajuga davisiana Kit Tan & Yildiz – Turkey
 * Ajuga decaryana Danguy ex R.A.Clement – Madagascar
 * Ajuga decumbens Thunb. – decumbent bugle – China, Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Ryukyu Islands
 * Ajuga dictyocarpa Hayata – - China, Vietnam, Taiwan, Ryukyu Islands
 * Ajuga fauriei H.Lév. & Vaniot – Korea
 * Ajuga flaccida Baker – Madagascar
 * Ajuga forrestii Diels – China, Tibet, Nepal
 * Ajuga genevensis L. – central + southern Europe, Caucasus; naturalized in North America
 * Ajuga grandiflora Stapf – South Australia
 * Ajuga incisia Maxim – Honshu Island in Japan
 * Ajuga integrifolia Buch.-Ham. – central + eastern Africa, southern Asia (Saudi Arabia, Iran, India, China, Indonesia, etc.), New Guinea
 * Ajuga iva (L.) Schreb. – Mediterranean region from Canary Islands and Madeira to Turkey and Palestine
 * Ajuga japonica Miq. – Japan
 * Ajuga laxmannii (Murray) Benth. – southeastern Europe from Czech Republic to Greece; Turkey, Caucasus
 * Ajuga leucantha Lukhoba – Uganda, DRoC, Ethiopia
 * Ajuga linearifolia Pamp. – China
 * Ajuga lobata D.Don – China, Nepal, Bhutan, Assam, Myanmar
 * Ajuga lupulina Maxim. - China, Nepal, Bhutan, Assam
 * Ajuga macrosperma Wall. ex Benth. – China, Nepal, Bhutan, Assam, northern + eastern India, northern Indochina
 * Ajuga makinoi Nakai – Honshu Island in Japan
 * Ajuga mollis Gladkova – Crimea
 * Ajuga multiflora Bunge – Korean pyramid bugle – China, Korea, Chita region of Siberia, Amur, Primorye
 * Ajuga nipponensis Makino – China, Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Taiwan
 * Ajuga novoguineensis A.J.Paton & R.J.Johns – New Guinea
 * Ajuga nubigena Diels – Tibet, Sichuan, Yunnan
 * Ajuga oblongata M.Bieb. – Iraq, Caucasus
 * Ajuga oocephala Baker – Madagascar
 * Ajuga ophrydris Burch. ex Benth. – South Africa, Eswatini, Lesotho
 * Ajuga orientalis L. – eastern Mediterranean
 * Ajuga ovalifolia Bureau & Franch. – China
 * Ajuga palaestina - Palestine (Region), Turkey
 * Ajuga pantantha Hand.-Mazz. – Yunnan
 * Ajuga parviflora Benth. – Afghanistan, Pakistan, northern India, Nepal
 * Ajuga piskoi Degen & Bald. – Albania, Yugoslavia
 * Ajuga postii Briq. – Turkey
 * Ajuga pygmaea A.Gray – China, Japan, Taiwan, Ryukyu Islands
 * Ajuga pyramidalis L. – central + southern Europe
 * Ajuga relicta P.H.Davis – Turkey
 * Ajuga reptans L. – Europe, Algeria, Tunisia, Iran, Turkey, Caucasus; naturalized in New Zealand, North America, and Venezuela
 * Ajuga robusta Baker – Madagascar
 * Ajuga salicifolia (L.) Schreb. – Balkans, Crimea, southern Russia, Turkey
 * Ajuga saxicola Assadi & Jamzad – Iran
 * Ajuga sciaphila W.W.Sm. .- southwestern China
 * Ajuga shikotanensis Miyabe & Tatew – Japan, Kuril Islands
 * Ajuga sinuata R.Br. – New South Wales
 * Ajuga spectabilis Nakai – Korean bugle – Korea
 * Ajuga taiwanensis Nakai ex Murata – Taiwan, Ryukyu Islands, Philippines
 * Ajuga tenorii C.Presl in J.S.Presl & C.B.Presl – Italy
 * Ajuga turkestanica (Regel) Briq. – Tajikistan, Uzbekistan
 * Ajuga vesiculifera Herder – Kyrgyzstan
 * Ajuga vestita Boiss. – Turkey, Iran
 * Ajuga xylorrhiza Kit Tan – Turkey
 * Ajuga yesoensis Maxim. ex Franch. & Sav. – Japan
 * Ajuga zakhoensis Rech.f. – Iraq

title: Ajuga


text:
Cesare Ricotti-Magnani

Cesare Francesco Ricotti Magnani (June 30, 1822 - August 4, 1917) was an Italian general who served as Minister of War of the Kingdom of Italy.

Biography
He was born at Borgolavezzaro, near Novara.

As artillery lieutenant, he distinguished himself and was wounded at the Siege of Peschiera del Garda in 1848, and in 1852 gained further distinction by his efforts to prevent the explosion of a burning powder magazine. After serving from 1856 to 1859. as Director of the Artillery School, he became General of Division in 1864, commanding the 5th Division at the Battle of San Martino.

In the war of 1866 he stormed Borgoforte, to open a passage for Cialdini's army. Upon the death of General Govone in 1872 he was appointed Minister of War, and after the occupation of Rome bent all his efforts to army reform, in accordance with the lessons of the Franco-German War. He shortened the period of military service, extended conscription to all able-bodied men, created a permanent army, a mobile militia and a reserve, commenced the renewal of armaments, and placed Italy in a position to put 1,800,000 men on a war footing. He was also responsible, after the suggestion made by Captain Giuseppe Perrucchetti, for the foundation of the Alpini, the first established infantry corps specialized in mountain warfare, for the defense of Italy's mountainous borders.

Ricotti fell from power with the Right in 1876, but returned to office with Depretis in 1884, and amended his previous scheme of reform. Resigning in April 1887, he became a member of the senate in 1890, but took little part in public life until 1896, when, after the Battle of Adowa, he was entrusted by King Humbert with the formation of a cabinet.

Having constructed his ministry, he made over the premiership to the Marquis di Rudinì, retaining for himself the portfolio of war, and seeking to satisfy popular demands for the reduction of military expenditure by consolidating the tactical structure of the army without weakening its fighting power. Rudinì, however, finding that Ricotti's ideas, which he himself shared, were not acceptable at court, obliged him to resign office. His prestige as creator of the modern Italian army remained unimpaired, and his views on army consolidation enjoyed a large measure of technical and public favour.

Orders and decorations

 * Kingdom of Sardinia:
 * Commander of the Military Order of Savoy, 12 July 1859; Grand Cross, 6 January 1895
 * Maurician Medal to the Military Merit of Ten Lustrums, ca. 1890
 * Knight of the Supreme Order of the Most Holy Annunciation, 5 June 1892
 * Grand Cross of the Order of Saints Maurice and Lazarus, 1892
 * Grand Cross of the Order of the Crown of Italy, 1892
 * Silver Medal of Military Valor
 * Gold Military Cross with Crown (for 40 years of service)
 * undefined: Grand Cross of the Order of Charles III, 28 January 1871
 * 🇸🇪 🇳🇴 Sweden-Norway: Commander Grand Cross of the Royal Order of the Sword, 18 December 1873
 * Austria-Hungary: Grand Cross of the Imperial Order of Leopold, 1875

title: Cesare Ricotti-Magnani


text:
Wing Yip

Wing Yip is a Chinese supermarket chain founded by Woon Wing Yip in England in 1970. The original Birmingham store also serves as its headquarters and national distribution centre. The company has superstore branches in Manchester, Croydon and Cricklewood.

In addition, the company has expanded into wholesale and export (international trade) and real estate development and management by situating its stores within larger commercial centres. Its tofu-based meat substitutes have been popular due to vegan diets since the 2010s.

Founder
The founder, Woon Wing Yip, was a Hakka born in Dongguan County, Guangdong, China, in 1937. He arrived in the United Kingdom from Hong Kong in 1959 by boat with 10 EUR. He later opened a restaurant in a former tea shop in Clacton-on-Sea, followed by three restaurants and two takeaways in the East Anglia region. In 1968, he was joined by his brother, Sammy Yap. In 1970, Wing Yip and Sammy opened a specialist Chinese grocery in Digbeth, Birmingham.

In 1977, Lee Sing Yap joined Wing Yip and Sammy. Together, they open a Manchester store on Faulkner Street, and a second Manchester store opens on Addington Street in 1978. In 1996, the Birmingham site grew to 7 acre with the purchase and development of further land, including a public road. In 1998, Wing Yip and his brothers donated a 40 ft granite pagoda to the City of Birmingham.

Wing Yip's online shopping site was launched in 2004; it includes recipes, cooking and dining information. It primarily served UK consumers.

In 2005, Wing Yip was exhibited at the International Food Exhibition in London.

The Wing Yip Group operates from four freehold sites covering 16.3 acre and employs around 300 staff.

Awards

 * 2006 – Wing Yip was the Winner of The Lord Chan Award for Outstanding Individual.
 * April 2008 – Wing Yip (Manchester) Ltd. achieved North West Business of the Year in the Ethnic Minority Business Forum Awards.
 * June 2005 – Tony Ritson, Information Technology Manager for Wing Yip, wins Best Information Security Manager 2005 from SC Magazine.
 * September 2008 – Birmingham City University presented Wing Yip with an honorary doctorate.
 * October 2008 – The Mai Siam range achieved Gold Stars at the Great Taste Awards.
 * 2008 – Wing Yip was awarded an Honorary Doctorate from Birmingham City University.
 * 2010 – Wing Yip was awarded the Lifetime Achievement.
 * 2012 – Wing Yip was awarded an Honorary Degree from Aston University.

title: Wing Yip


text:
Talk:Dave Matthews

Early Life Math Doesn't Work Out
Something is wrong with the first two paragraphs of the Early Life section. He was born in 1967 -> Early Life P1 says his family moved to Westchester, NY when he was 8 (1975) -> Early Life P2 says the family moved to Cambridge, England in 1974 for a year before returning to New York. P2 implies that the family lived in New York prior to 1975 through the term returning, but P1 says the family initially moved to New York in 1975. These paragraphs are cited, but its not an online source so I could easily check it out. ... someone who knows the chronology of Dave's youth should fix this section. Guest ... 96.246.68.5 (talk) 04:24, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

EDIT: I'm fixing it. According to his official website, he moved to New Yorn in 1969. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.68.116.17 (talk) 00:46, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Blanking
It looks like someone decided that it would be funny to change information throughout this page. Could someone please fix this immature prank?

Bartender?
I was under the impression that Matthews was a bartender at Miller's rather than Trax. He could have worked at both places, of course, but when I lived in C'ville the local lore always referred to Matthews working at Miller's.

Discography
Could we get a discography, more info about the band? Other stuff like other bands' pages have.

 * Well, this is a bio article, so most info that's strictly about the band should be confined to Dave Matthews Band. This does need more on his solo album and all that, though. Everyking 05:47, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Bisexuality?
Anyone know anything about his alleged bisexuality? Alison9 07:40, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * I have yet to see any sort of credible story on said topic. Everything I have seen has been equitable to schoolyard taunts. Bbatsell 12:10, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Dave Matthews is nothing near an admitted Bisexual. I really hope that someone will please change that and quit this immature libel.

 * Yes, I reverted that as soon as I saw it. It was pretty clearly just vandalism. Bbatsell 10:38, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Discography Blanking
The Discography on this page has been deleted twice now, with no justification in the edit summary - could someone explain why this is being done? Bbatsell 04:46, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm not the one who deleted it, and I can't speak to their reason for doing so, but I'd like to see the discography on the Dave Matthews Band page instead of here.  B. Mearns * , KSC 15:09, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Daves Father
I'm pretty sure daves father died from Lung Cancer and he was a non-smoker. Just wanted to put that out there. I don't think it was Brain Cancer

Did Dave's dad die in New Jersey or New York? Two wikipedia article's say two different things, and I can't find the truth online.--Esprit15d 17:50, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Again, your misspelling and errors in grammar are overwhelming. 'Dave' should be capitalized. There is no reason for 'lung cancer' or 'brain cancer' to be capitalized. The proper phrase should be 'the article says.' Why you placed an apostrophe on 'article' is up for question. You should get some assistance from somebody who can write proper English and understands the rules of grammar, spelling and punctuation before you attempt to contribute further. I don't mean to come across as a "spelling nazi," but this level of writing only creates problems and work for other editors. (Sellpink (talk) 18:26, 24 July 2018 (UTC))

African American
Teh african american "essay" was orginal reserach and hopelessly POV. I rewote it according to encyclopedia standards and referenced.--Esprit15d 16:48, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Your grammar and spelling are atrocious. You have misspelled 'the,' 'original,' and 'research.' Further, you failed to capitalize and properly hyphen the term 'African-American.' You need to really educate yourself or you have no business whatsoever being a Wikipedia contributor. Other people will end up correcting your entries.

agnostic at one time, but...
I have no actual information on this subject, other than the knowledge I have of Dave's work. But I couldn't see describing someone who penned songs like "Bartender" and "A Christmas Song" as agnostic. But, that's just me. Maybe Dave somewhere himself said it that I'm not aware of. I'm just worried someone is projecting their own POV onto Dave's.

In interviews, particularly after the death of his sister a decade ago, he would say things like "if there is a god, he's a cruel bastard," indicating the uncertainty that marks an agnostic. Now, he may well have made up his mind way or the other since then, but if he's said so on the record, I've never spotted it, and I follow such things rather closely. Let's see if I can track down a source for that, so that it can appear in the entry with a proper citation. --WaldoJ 12:59, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Found a reference, so I'm going to add it. McDanger 09:39, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

He may have been an agnostic before, but it appears he has changed his views a bit. Check out this link. I'm not sure it needs to be incorporated into the actual Wiki article on Dave, but is worthy of discussion here. http://www.christianitytoday.com/music/glimpses/2004/somedevil.html The article does not say definitively that he is now a Christian, but there is a quote in there from Dave which does not sound one bit agnostic.

 * The quote in that article ("[I've been] washed by the blood of the lamb") is ludicrously unlikely. Those words would no more come out of his mouth than a rabbit might emerge from my spleen. Also, the work attributes the statement to a venue in which it was not actually made. The author says that Matthews made the statement on video, as aired on VH1, but I've seen that episode, and didn't contain any such quote from him. Which leaves us with the more likely possibility that it's hearsay -- the author is saying that there was an event at which Matthews was present and that some "kids" said that he "affirmed" that "he had been 'washed by the blood of the lamb.'" That just sounds like your standard unsubstantiated rumor about a famous person. The source -- "Christian Music Today" -- does nothing to add further credibility to this.
 * --WaldoJ (talk) 03:05, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Removal of External Links
Hey peeps, as most (if not all) of those external links are for the band and not dave personally, i axed them (eeck.. don't kill me). I added a see also section that points to the band page here. I'm going to clean up and fix that link section right now :-) Wolverinegod 15:19, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

RE: The first "citation needed" regarding Dave's "evils of government" quote. This quote comes directly from the official Dave Matthews Band website, at http://www.davematthewsband.com/member/dave but not familiar enough with editing wikis to be able to add the url as a citation. --MMG 25/9/2006

 * Tecmo Banned Indefinitely. FYI--Wolverinegod/Tecmo has been banned indefinitely for repeated violations of Wiki policy.--Epeefleche 01:30, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Guest appearance in House 3.15
News has it that Dave Matthews is gonna appear in the 15th episode of the 3rd season of House. Link: http://www.houseisright.com/2007/01/06/326/

Early Life section, poor writing
I came across this as I was doing some research, and I thought I would bring this passage to the attention of actual editors.

"The Matthews family consisted of four children: Dave, two sisters (Anne and Jane) and a brother (Peter). Two years later, his family migrated to Yorktown Heights in Westchester County, New York, where his father, a physicist, went to work for IBM."

Does anybody know what the "Two years later" is referring to? If it is his birth (which I am guessing it is), I would think that it should be stated. If it is referring to something else, then it is possible that part of this article under this section is actually missing. 68.79.53.233 00:53, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Reverting tecmo
The reason for removing these links was originally given here. Tecmo was correct. Read WP:EL sometime--those links qualify as a linkfarm and they are completely not on topic. You've been warned about the removing of Tecmo's edits post-ban. If there is a content related reason to do so, go ahead. "Why not" is not a content related reason. Especially with ELs. Miss Mondegreen talk  14:07, July 25 2007 (UTC)

 * I put those links in because I believe that they are helpful and appropriate links under EL. Someone else put them in in the first place; quite possible for the same reasons.  These have nothing to do with a link farm, if you look at what the definition of a link farm is.  They are on topic.  Please explain why you do not think they are.  Tecmo, btw, was a disruptive user who was banned for going through articles and deleting ELs that were good, while asserting that they were link farms.  Please do not engage in Tecmo proxy behavior.  I note that you have asked him in general for suggestions as to what actions to take after he was banned.  Please do not act as a banned user's proxy.--Epeefleche 15:19, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

 * Epeefleche--this went to ANI, and you lost. I am well aware that you have issues with Tecmo--they are irrelevant.  Your issues with him, or in general are really interfering--when I ask for a content related reason I shouldn't hear continued personal attacks towards both Tecmo and myself.  You've been told again and again that you can't revert for personal reasons--only content ones.  And if you're just providing them for the heck of it, or to fully inform users or for whatever reason you can think of--stop.  Find a way to edit wikipedia without attacking other people please.  Miss Mondegreen  talk  08:55, July 26 2007 (UTC)

 * Miss M, you mischaracterize completely. Again, sadly.  The resolution of the issue of Tecmo's disruptive deletion of ELs was reflected in the decision to ban him for such activity.  Over your vociferous, circular, overly long, and baseless objections.  The ELs here that have been restored are appropriate for the article.  If you continue to restore ELs of a banned user as his proxy -- which I see you have volunteered to be -- you are violating Wikipedia policy.--Epeefleche 13:51, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

 * The resolution of Tecmo's disruptive behavior, in large part incited by you was a community ban, though with the ability to come back, a path he's chosen not to partake. If you want to restore ELs, or more correctly ADD ELs to the article, but in an edit summary that says that you're adding Els and explains why.  An edit summary that sites Tecmo's ban surpresses disagreement, because it implies, incorrectly that the edit was reverted in enforcing WP:BAN, and that disagreeing with the revert, or reverting the revert will carry penalties.  That's a problem.  So, if you want to add ELs, even ELs that Tecmo removed, that's fine, but the edits are going to have to stand on their, and not use WP:BAN to keep them around.
 * Let's clear this up, again. I did not offer to be his proxy.  You violated WP:BAN, and I was one of several editors trying to take care of this situation, not only for the particular situation, but for the more general message it sends.  People accused of sockpuppetry are often innocent, banned users contributed to the community, and Wikipedia has a habit of as soon as an accusation is made, throwing the editor out.  While, longstanding editors with much to their name, can often get away with murder.  Ironically, the majority of Wikipedia's content is contributed by the former, not the latter.
 * And so while we could deal with some of your edits, your contribution list was too massive to go through, the extent to which you went after Tecmo's edits to long and convoluted to be undone by one of us. So I suggested that rather than let you get away with it, and rather then resort to sockpuppetry, yet again, Tecmo e-mail one of the editors handling the situation with a list of your diffs.  The editor would presumably post the e-mail, or relevant parts on WP:ANI, and the situation would be taken care of.
 * Others disagreed with my proposal, and that was the end of the matter. But suggesting that a banned editor e-mail me is not against any rule that I know of.
 * In re this article, I reverted you as appropriate: you were abusing WP:BAN. You reverted me with the reason "why not" for the ELS--there's a talk page which I know you know how to make use of and you could have easily provided a real reason.  I reverted you, and you reverted me again, this time accusing me of acting as Tecmo's proxy, and still not providing a reason for your edits.  This would have continued and gone back to WP:ANI, where I was told to return if there were further problems with you, but another editor stepped in and explained the issues with the ELs, and now it's up to you guys to fight about in terms of content....the way it should have been all along. I have no interest in this article, or picking up someone's else's battle over a year old edit.  Consensus changes, content issues should be revisited from time to time.  But when they are, they should be given specific reasons--this guideline has changed, I think these are good on these counts, etc, not "Tecmo is a sockpuppet and Miss Mondegreen is his proxy!!" Lay off of the personal attacks.  Miss Mondegreen  talk  10:42, July 27 2007 (UTC)

 * Miss M -- Tecmo had been banned indefinitely for disruptive behavior in deleting ELs, much as you are doing here. Since his ban he has continued to violate his ban by coming back as a sockpuppet.  He has the right to ask to be allowed back, as all banned users do, no matter how disruptive behavior, but that is all.  I'm puzzled as to why you continue to try to defend him.  The officiousness of your tone does not add credence to your statements.  As the above diff clearly shows you did offer to be the banned user's proxy. As to the ELs, you deleted ELs, such as the ones mentioned below, without any explanation -- presumably only because Tecmo had, and would if he were here -- without any cogent thought.  Per my agreement with Onorem I have restored 3 that you and Tecmo deleted.  Pls stop acting as his proxy.  I'm not about to encourage you to clutter up this page with off-topic banter, so other than this I'll simply stick by my above comment and diffs.--Epeefleche 14:17, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[The next two paras are moved here from EF talk page]

It looks like fansites aren't specifically mentioned at WP:EL anymore, but I really don't see how they are more than just specialized personal web pages. Farm Aid is already linked to from his page, and people can find their link from there. If it has to be there, I'd prefer to use the link as a reference about his being a director and remove it from the external links. The file sharing site...I guess that one's fine since they are one of the few bands that don't mind people recording at their shows. I suppose I don't have a problem with the tabs or almanac links either. --Onorem♠Dil 21:11, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

 * Cool. I will start by putting back those, and give some more thought to the fansites.--Epeefleche 22:58, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

 * Typepad link was removed as it is on the spam blacklist. TABS should not be linked in any wikipedia article because of the uncertain copyright status of most TABS... this has also been removed.  I don't see much merit in keeping the file sharing site even if DMB is fine with sharing...  it is a bit too advert-y to me.  The almanac I could go either way on... but I didn't see much merit in it so I removed it.--Isotope23 talk 14:15, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Typepad interview link was added back... there was a glitch in the spam blacklist so URLs starting with S were getting flagged. This has been fixed so I added the link back in.--Isotope23 talk 14:30, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

The flag
Why have you got the old South African flag next to his country of birth? I find it very offensive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.10.121.2 (talk)
 * I'm not sure why it was the old flag. Someone had changed it without explaining their reasons, and it seems nobody noticed. I've changed it back. --Onorem♠Dil 13:40, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * That's rediculous, I'll change it back to the old one, it doesn't matter if it's offensive, when he was born in South Africa, it was the old flag, check this article for example: David Coltart. --Joe 15:45, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Using that same logic would mean that all South African born pre-1994 would have the old flag against them. Surely that doesn't seem right —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.10.121.2 (talk) 15:16, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

 * I agree. It would also mean all Germans born 1935-1945 would have a Nazi flag in the articles. --84.249.243.115 (talk) 06:44, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Zohan
Yeah... Dave's in the new Zohan movie. I saw an IP try to add the info, but since it looks too ridiculous, I think they removed it. We should try to work this in better... but yeah. He's here, and yes, he does play a redneck trying to kill arabs.  Qb | your 2 cents  14:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Equipment
Someone thought it was important to list the equipment he's used? Down to the strings? How is this "notable"? 4.79.176.22 (talk) 21:39, 10 July 2008 (UTC) Some guy

Songwriting
There is nothing at all that mentions that Dave writes most of the lyrics for his band's songs. Anyone have any evidence to this effect?

147.126.220.252 (talk) 06:15, 1 August 2008 (UTC)BV
 * It was probably removed in a vandal attack, and we havent noticed. Thanks for putting it back.   Qb  | your 2 cents  09:30, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Its a musician thing. Worry about yourself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.197.73.134 (talk) 04:46, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

African American category
I noticed a few editors edit warring about the African American category being placed on this article. Rather than giving opinions, let's look at the sources:
 * Random House Unabridged: A black American of African descent.
 * American Heritage Dictionary: A black American of African ancestry
 * Webster’s New World College Dictionary: An American having ancestors from sub-Saharan Africa; black American.
 * MSN Encarta encyclopedia: (American blacks or black Americans), racial group in the United States whose dominant ancestry is from sub-Saharan West Africa.
 * U.S. Census Bureau: A person having origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa.
 * Encyclopedia of Public Health, by The Gale Group, Inc.: The term "African American," as a categorical descriptor, includes many different segments of the American population referred to as "black" or Americans of sub-Saharan African ancestry.

As one can see from the several reliable sources, this is a racial category used in the United States for a black American. It is not used for a white South African who becomes a citizen of the U.S., nor is it used for someone who is white and has ancestors who were born on the African continent. Dave Matthews is not black; therefore, he is not African American. Kman543210 (talk) 16:44, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

 * I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. He was born in Africa.  He is American.  Therefore, he is African American.  Regardless of what Webster's says.   Qb  | your 2 cents  18:45, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Furthermore... please see the Who is African American? section of the African American article. We dont know Dave's parent's heritage... but I believe its safe to say that his family, who had lived there for quite some time, have ancestors there.  If you want to make the point that he's not African American solely because he's white, then thats a pretty soft point.   Qb  | your 2 cents  18:50, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Although I quite enjoy the notion of Dave Matthews as African-American—it only makes sense to me, plus I find such a use of the term wonderfully mischievous—I should point out that the African American Wikipedia entry says:

African Americans or Black Americans are citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa.

 * There's a specific Who is African American? section of the entry, which doesn't make any mention that "African American" is a term that could encompass Americans of white African descent. So if Wikipedia's existing information on the topic is a guideline, I'm afraid that we probably can't get away with it here, Queerbubbles. :)--WaldoJ (talk) 21:07, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

 * This is what I was refering to:

''Some courts have called a person black if the person had any known African ancestry. It became known as the one-drop rule, meaning that a single drop of "black blood" makes a person "black". Some courts have called it the traceable amount rule, and anthropologists used to call it the hypodescent rule, meaning that racially mixed persons were assigned the status of the subordinate group. ''  Qb | your 2 cents  21:54, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Might I add Africa is a continent, not a country. A person's nationality refers to their country of birth, not continent of birth. See this: List of African countries. You can see the nationality of each country by clicking on a country, then click on "Demographics Of..." Dave Matthews was born in South Africa, which is a country. Therefore, his nationality is South African. Since he became an American citizen, he is South African-American. I'm an American because I was born in the United States of America. If I acquire citizenship in Ireland, I would be an American-Irish because I'm an American (due to being born in the United States of America) and I became a naturalized citizen of Ireland (i.e. I emigrate to Ireland). It amazes me how people like Queerbubbles and WaldoJ do not know anything about geography and nationalities. The information is easily available. I think some people are ignorant just for the sake of being ignorant. Noble12345 (talk) 03:01, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

 * No personal attacks please (besides, WaldoJ was agreeing with you). Let us remember that this should not be about personal opinions. Not only does the term/label African American have a well-sourced technical definition, it also has a well-establish common usage as a term for black Americans. The one-drop/hypodescent rule is an antiquated ruling that was used for discrimination, but it does not relate to the term African American directly; other terms such as negro or colored were used back then. One may not agree with Webster's, but that was not the only source provided. Personally I never use the term African American just like I don't use the term European American for white American, but again, it is a well-established and documented term for black Americans. Dave Matthews is already categorized under Anglo-African people, South Africans of British descent, People from Johannesburg, and South-African Americans, all of which are correct categories. Kman543210 (talk) 03:24, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I edited the personal attacks. They were uncalled for. Noble12345 (talk) 03:42, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Getting to GA Class
IMHO, here's some of what needs to be done to get this entry up to GA Class: I'm listing these things in hopes that others can suggest further improvements, that others might make some of these improvements, and to remind myself of the changes I'd like to make myself. --WaldoJ (talk) 05:45, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Significantly more citations are necessary. This information is out there; somebody just needs to do the legwork.
 * A bright line needs to be drawn between information about Matthews and information about DMB, with the latter largely excised from the article.
 * The writing is as stilted as...uh...a Wikipedia entry. :) This needs to be reflowed, so that each sentence is connected to the prior and subsequent sentences, each paragraph is connected to the prior and subsequent paragraphs, etc.
 * The "Music" section is only slightly better than a listing of trivia. This needs to be rewritten to provide actual information about his music. Somebody who has never heard Matthews' music ought to understand his style based on this section.
 * The whole affair requires technical cleanup—grammar, punctuation, etc.

Drug Use
Why isn't any reference made to his experiments with drugs such as cocaine and heroine? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.223.44.102 (talk) 03:49, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

 * For the same reason that Barack Obama's page doesn't make reference to his being a one-man Al Qaeda sleeper cell: Wikipedia requires statements of fact, rather than lies or urban legends. --WaldoJ (talk) 16:06, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Childhood chronology
The "Early Life" section states as follows:

David John Matthews was born in Johannesburg, South Africa on January 9 1967, the fourth of six children born to John and Valerie Matthews. At eight years old, Matthews' family migrated to Yorktown Heights in Westchester County, New York, where his father, a physicist, started working for IBM.

In 1974, the family moved to Cambridge, England, for a year before returning to New York, where his father died from lung cancer in 1977.

One of these two facts is untrue:

 * At eight years old—that is, in 1975—his family moved to New York.
 * Subsequent to that, in 1974, his family moved to England prior to moving back to New York.

Until somebody sorts this out, those two claims are marked as dubious, since one of them is untrue. --WaldoJ (talk) 20:17, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Daugthers
According to the article, his daughters appear in the video for Funny the Way It Is. I've seen it now a few times, and the girls in the video doesn't exactly look like they are nine years old. Can someone provide a source for this, otherwise I'll remove it in a few days. Bjelleklang -  talk 01:42, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

New images available
A number of new, good quality images have become available at Commons:Category:Dave Matthews. I hope someone takes a look and adds some of the suitable ones to the article. Couple of new images of his bandmates are also available at Commons:Category:Dave Matthews Band. Cheers, Quibik (talk) 01:19, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

BAMA Works
There really should be more information on the vast variety of charitable work Matthews does- both as a member of the Dave Matthews Band but also as an individual. I really don't think that little section does him justice. Here is just one of many good sources: which mentions both the BAMA Works fund, but also other humanitarian work. --Leahtwosaints (talk) 13:00, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Genres
Someone keeps removing "jazz fusion" and inserting "pop" and "pop rock" for musical genres. DMB's music may not qualify as "jazz fusion," although it has elements of jazz, blues and funk,. Matthews and Beauford do not favor the term "jam band" and say that they are not really a fusion band, despite the elements of jazz in their music. So that leaves rock. They are a rock band, not "pop" or "pop rock." If you disagree, let's discuss this and avoid edit warring. Sunray (talk) 00:40, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Charity
The last sentence in the Charity section references an e-mail scam that is completely irrelevant to that section (or any other section, for that matter). 173.59.67.23 (talk) 01:37, 29 December 2010 (UTC)B.

Dave...
Nobody's talked about Dave in nearly four years. Guess that's good for the article, or bad for Dave. 206.53.81.61 (talk) 03:56, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070711002749/http://dmband.com:80/news/view/cb3b7a7e7b6d5086bee55ac0624874dd to http://www.dmband.com/news/view/cb3b7a7e7b6d5086bee55ac0624874dd

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External links modified
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External links modified
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External links modified
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Mother's Name
For some reason, Dave's mom keeps being named "Allie Laurenzo-Matthews" but I'm reasonably certain her name is Valerie. I changed it to reflect this in August 2019, but an IP changed it back in September. Quick Google searches DO yield the name "Allie Laurenzo" on spammy celebrity gossip sites, but I think this is probably because they just source from here.

In Dave's father's obituary in the NYT, his wife is listed as the former Valerie Borchers (and yes, I realize this doesn't necessarily have to be Dave's mom, but it's good evidence when paired with other sources). In a book about the mothers of rock stars written by Dave Grohl's mom, there is a whole section about Val Matthews. In legitimate news articles with direct interviews (I don't feel like listing more than 1), mom's name is Val.

Someone named Allie Laurenzo is mentioned as Tim Reynolds's friend (Tim Reynolds = frequent Dave Matthews collaborator) on some site called "The Reader View of Wikipedia", so this could be where the misconception started? (Although their cited source for this has no mention of that name) Regardless, I didn't want to directly re-edit it back without bringing it up here and asking what people think. Mcheer372 (talk) 23:21, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

No response, so change was made back to Val. Mcheer372 (talk) 06:42, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Opening sentence and the subject's place of birth
There seems to be some disagreement on the opening sentence and whether it should say that Dave Matthews is "... an American singer ..." or "... a South African born American singer ...". MOS:ETHNICITY seems clear:

 * "... if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable.... Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability."

Dave Matthews became notable while living in the US which is why the lead states that he is an "American singer". The MOS specifically says that we should not mention place of birth unless that is relevant to the subject's notability which does not appear to be the case.

The rest of the article talks about Dave Matthew's birth and upbringing which is appropriate. But I don't see how saying that he was born in South Africa is appropriate in the lead sentence. SQGibbon (talk) 18:59, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Dave Matthews


text: User talk:68.69.236.87

title: User talk:68.69.236.87


text:
Felt (band)

Felt were an English jangle pop band, formed in 1979 in Water Orton, Warwickshire, and led by the mononymous Lawrence. They were active for ten years through the 1980s, releasing ten singles and ten albums, although none reached the UK singles chart or albums chart. The band's name was inspired by Tom Verlaine's emphasis of the word "felt" in the Television song "Venus".

Formation
Lawrence founded the band in 1979 with the release of the single "Index", a self-published solo recording. A noisy effort unlike Felt's subsequent records, it was later awarded single of the week by Dave McCullough in music newspaper Sounds.

With Lawrence initially on vocals and guitar, they formed properly in 1980 with the addition of schoolfriend Nick Gilbert on drums and local guitarist Maurice Deebank. Becoming co-writer with Lawrence, Deebank's jangly, classical-influenced style of playing would provide the band's signature sound in its early years.

The band performed as a trio before deciding that bass guitar was needed. Gilbert switched to bass and drummer Tony Race was added. He was replaced soon after by Gary Ainge who would remain the only constant member besides Lawrence throughout the rest of Felt's existence, as well as the only member to play on all ten of their albums.

Signing
Felt signed to Cherry Red Records and their first single as a band, "Something Sends Me to Sleep", was released in 1981. Their first album, Crumbling the Antiseptic Beauty, followed the next year. Gilbert left and was replaced on bass by Mick Lloyd. The band's lineup would then remain unchanged through their next two albums, The Splendour of Fear and The Strange Idols Pattern and Other Short Stories. In 1982, the Felt song "My Face Is on Fire" appeared on the best-selling Pillows & Prayers compilation.

In 1985, for the recording of their fourth album, keyboard player Martin Duffy was added and Marco Thomas became bassist. Ignite the Seven Cannons was produced by Robin Guthrie of the Cocteau Twins and featured Elizabeth Fraser on the single "Primitive Painters". The song reached the top of the UK independent singles chart.

Deebank departed soon after, prompting a shift in Felt's sound with Duffy's keyboards becoming more central. The lead guitar position would subsequently be filled by an ever-changing succession of players.

The band moved to Creation Records in 1986 and released Let the Snakes Crinkle Their Heads to Death, the first of two instrumental albums they would record. Their next album, Forever Breathes the Lonely Word, was a conventional collection of songs that gained the band praise and would become regarded by many as their best.

Break up and later
In 1989, Lawrence declared it had been his intention all along to release ten singles and ten albums in ten years and, having done so, announced the end of Felt. After releasing their last album, Me and a Monkey on the Moon, and undertaking a short tour, the band split up. Lawrence went on to form Denim and later, Go Kart Mozart and Mozart Estate. Duffy joined Primal Scream. Ainge would later play with Vic Godard. Mick Lloyd died in 2016. Subsequent bass player Mick Bund died in 2017. Martin Duffy died in 2022.

In 2018, Cherry Red reissued all ten Felt albums on CD and vinyl, with new mixes of songs plus revised tracklistings and packaging.

Legacy
Lawrence has said that he believes the band could have been more successful. According to Lawrence, "The reason Felt didn't make it is because John Peel didn't like us."

Felt have been cited as an influence by Stuart Murdoch of Belle and Sebastian, Tim Burgess of the Charlatans, Manic Street Preachers, Girls, and the Tyde.

Members

 * Lawrence – vocals, guitars (1979–1989)
 * Maurice Deebank – guitars (1980–1985)
 * Nick Gilbert – bass, drums (1980–1981)
 * Tony Race – drums (1980–1981)
 * Gary Ainge – drums, percussion (1981–1989)
 * Martin Duffy – keyboards (1985–1989; died 2022)
 * Mick Lloyd – bass (1982–1984; died 2016)
 * Marco Thomas – bass, guitars (1985–1987)
 * Phil King – bass (1986–1987)
 * Mick Bund – bass (1988; died 2017)

 * Timeline

Discography

 * Crumbling the Antiseptic Beauty (1982)
 * The Splendour of Fear (1984)
 * The Strange Idols Pattern and Other Short Stories (1984)
 * Ignite the Seven Cannons (1985)
 * Let the Snakes Crinkle Their Heads to Death (1986)
 * Forever Breathes the Lonely Word (1986)
 * Poem of the River (1987)
 * The Pictorial Jackson Review (1988)
 * Train Above the City (1988)
 * Me and a Monkey on the Moon (1989)

title: Felt (band)