text:
Pik Botha

Roelof Frederik "Pik" Botha, (27 April 1932 – 12 October 2018) was a South African politician who served as the country's foreign minister in the last years of the apartheid era, the longest-serving in South African history. Known as a liberal within the party, Botha served to present a friendly, conciliatory face on the regime, while criticised internally. He was a leading contender for the leadership of the National Party upon John Vorster's resignation in 1978, but was ultimately not chosen. Staying in the government after the first non-racial general election in 1994, he served under Mandela as Minister of Mineral and Energy Affairs from 1994 to 1996.

While testifying at the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, Botha was one of the few officials to repent for his involvement in the apartheid government. He said he'd realized that apartheid was morally wrong in the 1970s, but didn't do enough to "turn the tide" against the regime and prevent atrocities from being committed.

Botha was nicknamed 'Pik' (short for pikkewyn, Afrikaans for 'penguin') because of a perceived likeness to a penguin in his stance, accentuated when he wore a suit.

He was not related to Prime Minister (later State President) P. W. Botha, under whom he served as foreign minister for 17 years.

Early life
Botha was born at Rustenburg in the Transvaal, to Roelof Frederik Botha and Maria Elizabeth Dreyer. At the age of four, he was struck by meningitis in Lourenço Marques (modern-day Maputo, Mozambique); he received treatment at a small hospital in Barberton, Transvaal, and his mother vowed that if he survived, he would become a church minister.

Botha attended Paul Kruger Primary School, where his father was principal. He excelled in high school, becoming chairman of the debating society and officer in the school cadets. Botha was also a writer of both prose and poetry in Afrikaans, and his writing supplemented his salary in his early years as a diplomat. In his first year studying law at the University of Pretoria, a theologian explained to him that God would not expect him to keep his mother's promise to become a church minister.

Diplomat and lawyer
Botha began his career in the South African foreign service in 1953, serving in Sweden and West Germany. From 1963 to 1966, he served on the team representing South Africa at the International Court of Justice in The Hague in the matter of Ethiopia and Liberia v. South Africa, over the South African occupation of South-West Africa (now Namibia).

In 1966, Botha was appointed legal adviser at the Department of Foreign Affairs, in which capacity he served on the delegation representing South Africa at the United Nations from 1967 to 1977. In 1974, he was appointed South Africa's permanent representative to the United Nations and presented his credentials to Secretary-General Kurt Waldheim on 15 October 1974; in November of that year, however, South Africa was suspended from membership of the General Assembly and, over the ensuing years, the country was excluded from official participation in virtually all of the UN's organs and agencies.

Politician
In the elections of 1970 and 1974, Botha was elected to the House of Assembly as MP for Wonderboom in the Transvaal. In 1975, he was appointed South Africa's Ambassador to the United States, in addition to his UN post. In 1977, he re-entered Parliament as MP for Westdene, and was appointed minister for foreign affairs by Prime Minister B. J. Vorster. He continued to represent Westdene for the remainder of his political career.

Botha entered the contest to be the leader of the National Party in 1978. He was allegedly considered Vorster's favourite and received superior public support among whites (We want Pik!) but withdrew after criticism concerning his young age, lack of experience (having spent 16 months as foreign minister) and alleged liberal beliefs as opposed to the ultra-conservative NP machinery (in which he lacked a significant position), instead throwing his support behind P. W. Botha, who was ultimately elected.

In 1985, Botha helped to draft a speech that would have announced common decision-making on all levels in a single constitutional unit and a formula for bringing about the release of Nelson Mandela, but this draft was rejected by P. W. Botha.

The next year, he stated publicly (during a press conference in Parliament, asked by German journalist Thomas Knemeyer) that it would be possible for South Africa to be ruled by a black president provided that there were guarantees for minority rights, but was quickly forced to acknowledge that this position did not reflect government policy. Botha recalled in 2011 that he had been "severely reprimanded and almost fired" over his remarks. In early 1986 he was also an instrumental figure in the South African government's negotiations with the Commonwealth Eminent Persons' Group (EPG). Although the Group's mission was aborted after the South African Military launched cross-border raids on ANC bases on 19 May, in the preceding months Pik Botha had engaged in extensive talks with the Group about a possible path to negotiations, including calls for a suspension of violence and the unbanning of the ANC.

Throughout 1988 Botha was instrumental in lengthy peace talks between South Africa, Cuba, and the People's Republic of Angola aimed at ending the South African Border War. On 13 December 1988, Botha and Defence Minister Magnus Malan ratified the Brazzaville Protocol, which led to the effective cessation of hostilities in that conflict.

Namibian independence
On 22 December 1988, Botha signed the Tripartite Accord involving Angola, Cuba and South Africa at United Nations headquarters in New York City which led to the implementation of Security Council Resolution 435, and to South Africa's granting of independence to Namibia.

On 21 December 1988, Botha, with a 22-strong South African delegation from Johannesburg, was initially booked to travel to the Namibian independence ratification ceremony in New York on Pan Am Flight 103 from London. Instead, the booking was cancelled as he and six delegates took an earlier flight, thereby avoiding the fatal PA103 bombing over Lockerbie, Scotland.

National unity
Botha subsequently served as Minister of Mineral and Energy Affairs in South Africa's first post-apartheid government from 1994 to 1996 under President Nelson Mandela. Botha had first met Mandela in May 1990 at the historic Groote Schuur Minute, and was highly impressed by Mandela's knowledge of Afrikaner history.

Botha became deputy leader of the National Party in the Transvaal from 1987 to 1996. He retired from politics in 1996 when F. W. de Klerk withdrew the National Party from the government of national unity.

While testifying at the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, Botha was one of the few officials to repent for his involvement in the apartheid government. He said he'd realized that apartheid was morally wrong in the 1970s, but didn't do enough to "turn the tide" against the regime and prevent atrocities from being committed, which he blamed on South African security forces.

In 2000, Botha declared his support for President Thabo Mbeki.

In 2013, Botha expressed criticism for the government's affirmative action policies saying that the South African government of 1994 would never have reached a constitutional settlement with the ANC had it insisted on its current affirmative action programme. In an interview on affirmative action, Botha publicly declared that he had never been a member of the ANC, and would not join under its current policies.

On 12 December 2013, Botha appeared on the BBC's Question Time, hosted in Johannesburg, discussing the life and legacy of Nelson Mandela.

Personal life
Botha married Helena Bosman in 1953, with whom he had two daughters, Anna Hertzog and the artist Lien Botha as well as two sons, the rock musician Piet Botha (1955-2019) and the economist Roelof Botha. Among Botha's eight grandchildren is grandson Arend Botha theologian and musician, and Roelof Botha, former CFO of PayPal. Helena died in 1996, after having been ill, including being partially paralysed, following a fall in her home in 1991. Two years later, Botha married Ina Joubert, a former journalist with the SABC.

Botha died of natural causes at his home in Pretoria on 12 October 2018 at the age of 86.

Awards

 * 🇿🇦 South Africa: Order of Good Hope in the Grand Cross Class (March 1980)
 * 🇹🇼 Taiwan: Order of Brilliant Star with Grand Cordon (October 1980)
 * 🇿🇦 South Africa: Decoration for Meritorious Service (July 1981)

title: Pik Botha


text: User talk:68.160.150.92

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:68.160.150.92


text:
Talk:Beyoğlu

= Comments =

Shame
i hope someone will write unstolen entry for that beyoglu (the hearth of istanbul) who knows there well, it's a shame that beyoglu is under that topic actually.

 * This is not an easy name to read for an English speaker who is not familiar with Turkish. Which is most of us. I assume a translation was out of the question? {"Heart of the city" isn't bad, but a mouthful. "Downtown" maybe? Could it be phonetically transliterated? while Turkish is nearly roman alphabet, it isn't 100%. Others editors on this page are expressing the same thought, I think. Student7 (talk) 21:14, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

 * Needs english phonetic pronounciation in parentheses for starters. That might help a little. Student7 (talk) 21:15, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

 * The shame is on the shoulders of nationalist editors who think it is not enough to write their own country articles but they should also write your country's articles as if they were part of their country. I am not trying to say no one should write anything about other countries, I have just edited an article about Peru myself, what I am trying to say is that as a result of this weird attitude of trying to add the most about one's own country on articles of another country, people who come to Wikipedia trying to learn something about a district of the city of Istanbul in 2012 are forced to read much more about Genoa and the "Republic" of half a millenium ago! This is the lead of our Beyoğlu article. Patience... --E4024 (talk) 22:34, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Spelling
Should we spell it Beyoglu or Beyoğlu? Gerry Lynch 12:34, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Today's Beyoglu
Today's Beyoğlu is as cosmopolitan as, if not more than it was then, one hundred years ago. Any visitor to Istanbul may see that and this is why foreign tourists rush to that part of the city, as well as Sultanahmet, upon arrival. (Regrettably our article fails to draw the picture of today's Beyoğlu.) The reason is, IMO of course, some editors with an "Orientalist" approach, to say the least, have transformed many articles on Turkey, like this one, to instruments of "Turk-bashing", putting in any negative issue possibly found in history. On the other hand, if one needs to learn about Venice, reads the Venice article; if one needs to read about Byzantium reads the Byzantium article. People who come here want to learn about Beyoğlu and we have an obligation to give them objective information about this district of Istanbul, without calling some residents of the district as "penniless rural Turks" I added the word Turks so it may be better understood what message the editor of those words wanted to give. Don't be shy; anybody can one day be penniless... --E4024 (talk) 21:18, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20130721102401/http://213.238.130.52/beyoglu/taniyalim.aspx?SectionId=72 to http://213.238.130.52/beyoglu/taniyalim.aspx?SectionId=72

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Lack of references
Most information in the history section is unreferenced. Where did all this info come from? Patryckstar (talk) 12:31, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Beyoğlu


text:
Talk:Principality of Seborga

Location
If the little dot on Italy is supposed to be Seborga, it's in the wrong place. Liguria, where the article states Seborga is located, is considerably to the northwest of the black dot.Doovinator 17:24, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

POV
This was severely POV and I've toned it down a lot. This "micronation" has put a lot of effort into its websites etc, but it is still nonetheless just another scam. That people will buy your coins doesn't in itself make them "legal". I'll let others argue over the "unrecognised" nonsense. That you have no hope of recognition because you have absolutely no basis for it should seal the matter, but a little fantasy never hurt much. BTW, Italy was unified in large part by conquest and war, and, like all modern states, assumes its interior integrity without regard to the historical situation in the 1500s. I daresay there are a couple of villages somewhere in France that really do still belong to England (a reversal of the case in Passport to Pimlico) but I can't see them being handed over any time soon. If Seborga wants its independence, I suggest it buys some tanks.Dr Zen 10:37, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

this is severely biist against the principality if it is technically correct than the articles tone should be neutral. Paladine

Italy was unified in large part by conquest and war, and, like all modern states, assumes its interior integrity without regard to the historical situation in the 1500s while the above stament is true it should be noted that the principality technicly belonged to the country doing the conquring(the country that owned it never thought it important to offically add it to his country) and as such could not be conquered. If it had been mentioned in the artical that united Italy this would not be a problem, it would belong to Italy, but this tiny place was overlooked(twice!). Until a higher coart such as the world court steps in to examine its legitimacy we can't say wether it is or is'nt a independent principality.

Why are you talking about if it offically exists, i want to know how much i can buy it for Swalesy

Really a state?
There are a lot of factors that determine the legitimacy of statehood. They have their case and beliefs, and the question really is an open one. Now, the question of whether the article should be up or not should not correlate to whether it is an actual, widely recognized state, but rather whether there is relavent information. In this regard, leave the article up, however it does need to be neutral and objective. They have a right to opinion, and people have a right to learn of it.

--

I have took a long time reading documents, books, and websites about Seborga, and as for my judgment I can say that the Principality established is not a "micronation" but is either an aspirational state or a seccessionist movement. Since they recognize Italian authority on the area, I can consider it as a gesture to avoid brutal conflict. Moreover, they have an organized government. However due to the fact that they have only one army member as their armed force, they can't reinforce policies thay make. Moreover, as this town is just small and receive a small income, they can't raise funds to establish their own post office. And their historical claims are not "eccentric", the proper term being "lapsed". They have just not acknowledged that they were the ones who gave their allegiance to Italy.

To add, some references say that the population of Seborga is 2,000+ but only 300+ are citizens of the Principality. However some also argue that there are only 300+, which means all citizens support seccession, as attested by a referendum done by the Principality in 1995. So I ask everyone to help me in discussing the real status of Seborga. Thank you all. Christian Mac Juane (talk) 04:25, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Not a neutral article
This article is not neutral: it talks about Seborga as it is currently existing today as a sovereign state. Naturally this is not the case: Seborga is just a city belonging to the province of Imperia in the Liguria region in Italy. The luigino currency is not legal tender anywhere and no resident of Seborga has the right to issue a real monetary unit: the only recognized currency is of course the euro. Luigino coins are more like "tokens" worth some money and sold to tourists visiting the small city. In 2002 there were even disputes between the "prince" and the real "ruler" of Seborga: the mayor. The mayor was becoming increasingly sick with the anachronistic idea of self-proclaiming a principality while Italy is focusing on European integration. Since we're just talking about a bunch of people playing monarchy (as a touristic attraction), derided by the few who know about them, the article should be modified to be neutral and report the real situation.

 * The article is fairly NPOV as far as I can see. I makes it clear that the principality isn't recognised by anyone. You're wrong about the currency however. The Luigino does actually circulate widely within Seborga, and there are numerous commercial and banking establishments in Seborga that convert Euros to Luigini and vice versa. As for "a bunch of people playing monarchy" you're actually talking about an entire town of 300 or so people who elected their own prince in 2 near unanimous votes, so its hardly insignificant. --Gene_poole 23:32, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Sorry, I probably picked the wrong title: what I meant is that this seems like a promotional pamphlet about their claims, not an informative article. I know luiginos really exist and are "exchangeable for money": even phisces in casinos are tradeable for money but this does not make them a monetary unit. That "currency" is un-recognized as the "state" issuing them. About the "prince", he may have been elected by hundreds or even thousands... he has no political power and the principality does not exist. Now, I find the article interesting but IMO is not clearly stated that this micronation does not exist; "Seborga is a little town [...] and it is a principality"; this line at the beginning of the article does not reflect reality, and the general mood as well.

Whomever is posting these unsigned comments should post their user link  Paladine

At times I'm starting to get tired of these constant bickering on Wikipedia about what might be called a state, nation, or whatever political in question. Basically the arguments bog down to the relevance of recognition by outside parties. Personally, I believe it's totally ludicrous that something might only be called 'exisisting' if a certain number of outsiders agree that it does, and think that more important in a case like the one of Seborga is the nationality inscribed in the passports issued to its inhabitants and inclusion of the town in Italian civil administrative records. I do not per se think this article is not neutral, though at times it might be somewhat uncarefully phrased. The opening line is not really a faulty one, but an explanation on the factuality should immediately follow. I shrink from editing the header, though, because of a more serious flaw in the article itself: a complete lack of reference on who claims what. In effect, who is it that claims an independent principality, and who support this claim? The citizens of the town? The civil authorities? This should be clarified first before we fall over the claim issued in the first line. --Santetjan 16:48, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

First of all, I am the author of the unsigned edits... sorry about that: I was a Wikipedia newbie at that time. Back on topic, I still believe it is a lot deceiving to read the opening line "and it is a principality" on a page with the exact same look of "real" countries pages (table with info, flag, etc.). At least I would change the first line in "it is claimed to be a principality" and then investigate about that. --Lorenzodv 23:08, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

... the principality isn't recognised by anyone ??

 * Not true at all.

For what i know, and i leave no more than 15 km to Seborga, the principality has been recognized at the moment by 92 sovreign states in the world, and the needed number to obtain legal independancy is just 100. This is all based on the tons of ancient documents, proved for real, in possess of the Principality Secretary. This question of legal independancy of Seborga is in some way parallel to the story of whole Ligurian region. In fact, even if included in the italian republic, in all italian history there is no prove about any signings of submission acts by Liguria to the Italian Republic (as all the other regions did), and is warm and alive the movement leading to recognize the independancy of all Liguria and its original state of "Repubblica Marinara di Genova". Look here: MiL Of course at the present moment Liguria is Italy, and Seborga is Italy too.

===>What? Can you provide the names of any of these 92 states, or any third-party verification of this claim? Furthermore, I have no idea where you got this standard of "legal independancy."

This is nonsense. --pippo2001 09:11, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Of course there's no records Itally started there and expanded to cover all of what is now italy. The country that was there IS italy! Zazaban 20:09, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The Principality is not recognized by any state formally, but Burkina Faso, Great Britain and France recognized the Principality in a different fashion, note that the "fashion" I am referring to is different than that used for the ROC. Christian Mac Juane (talk) 04:37, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Just to be clear
If somebody kills somebody else in Seborga, the Italian Police will come and an Italian judge will rule. They have the Italian Post office. They pay taxes to the Italian State. They use Italian schools and Hospitals. It is just a folkloristic revival, supported by some ambiguity in documents, that basically forgot about it. It is worthwhile a mention, but it should not be presented by a state. Simply because it is not. --pippo2001 09:11, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It would be nice to get rid of the accuracy dispute. --pippo2001 09:27, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I'll do that. You may want to refer to the article State to see what a micronation is. Seborga is not even a principality. It is a clear example of folklore. The ruling Mayor is elected according to Italian Law. On April 23, 1995 Seborgans voted, 304 in favor, 4 against for the Principality's Constitution and its general rules. However the "Prince" cannot change laws, there is no enforcement of rules decided by him. Please, consider that the Tourist Passport is available from the Direction of Tourism of Seborga see here. I have nothing against microstates or in favor of any Italian empire. I actually don't care. However, wikipedia should be correct and neutral. And folklore should not confound reality. I tried to make a neutral article. --pippo2001 18:57, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

He's just as much of a prince as Norton I was an emperor. By the way, the Italian and Portugese Wikipedias say that Seborga has 4 km2, and so does the Italian statistics authority. Ausir 09:00, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

To user pippo2001, there has been a slight lapse of judgement in your statements. As I explained in some preceding parts of this discussion, the Principality can be either a secessionist movement or an aspirational state, being inspired by Mr. Carbone. Christian Mac Juane (talk) 04:46, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

In the interest of accuracy
I think it would be wise to either make it clear that this is a micronation (and perhaps even define a micronation) in the first sentence or to remove the country bar on the right at the very least. Given that Seborga is located in a part of the world where there are indeed several sovereign nations with clouded histories and confusing forms of government (e.g.: Liechtenstein, Monaco, San Marino) I see a huge potential for confusion here, at least among people who are not particularly informed about Europe, don't speak English as a first language or are young/poorly educated. This is an encyclopedia, not a playground.

An article on the topic itself is fine, but it shouldn't be presented in the manner that it is currently. Gabe 22:52, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Arm
The arm is not the right one of "Comune di Seborga". You can see the right one at it.wikipedia. ediedi

 * Fixed. Pavel Vozenilek 01:14, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Population?
It says the population is 339,000,000 in Seborga. I think that is incorrect as that would be saying that the population almost the size of USA lives in this small town.

Please, notice that the Municipality of Seborga (Comune di Seborga, in Italian) has no flag, but just a coat of arms. You used the flag of the "principality" as it was the one of the Municipality, which isn't. Of course, as clearly explained by others, it is only a tourist call, which runned because tourism increased very much. According to the Wikipedia file "Prince of Seborga" Giorgio Carbone, the so-called Prince, abdicated on July 1, 2006 in favour of American actor Nate Richert, now Prince Carlo Luigi I. I've the legitimate suspicion that this actor (I never heard about, before) needed some pubblicity....VAL
 * The population has been updated to actual values as of January 1 2018. Noxoug1 (talk) 09:53, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Seborga is Recognized ??
Quisiera saber si el Principado de Seborga es reconocida por alguien (alguna nacion o pais) como Estado Independiente o Principado.

O tal vez esto esta en tramite o en discusion ?

Que pasa con el Vaticano o Monaco ... estan en igual condicion que Seborga ? o son reconocidas como paises independientes ?

Gracias por sus comentarios

Carlos Escudero   ...Ok, can someone translate this?--Wilson 15:26, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Sure:

Je voudrais bien savoir si la Principauté de Seborga est-elle reconnue par quelqu'un (quelconque nation ou pays) en tant que État Indépendant ou Principauté.

Ou peut-être est-ce qu'il y a de démarches ou discussions à ce propos ?

Quelle est la situation avec le Vatican ou Monaco ... sont-ils dan la même situation que Seborga ? Ou sont-ils reconnus en tant que pays indépendants ?

Merci de votre avis.

Charles Écuyer

 * You're welcome. :-) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.81.211.221 (talk) 22:06, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

3 articles
Is there any reason why this small town needs 3 articles, one on the town, one on it's jokey independence claim, and one on the local man who serves as "head of state"? Giorgio Carbone. I suggest no; this should be covered as a curiosity in the main Seborga article. --kingboyk 10:14, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Because each article meets notability standards. If unhappy then AfD. BlueValour 14:04, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Notability doesn't mean that seperate articles are needed. Why do we need a seperate article on the "micronation", given that it's the same town? AFD isn't relevant because I'm not arguing that this should be deleted, merely merged. --kingboyk 14:09, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Giorgio Carbone should be merged into Principality of Seborga, which is an article about a very well known micronation. Seborga (municipality) is about a little-known Italian town. These are 2 entirely separate entities. In this case the micronation is actually far better known than the town - in fact the only reason most people outside the imediate locality have even ever heard of the town is because of the micronation - so there is no justification whatsoever for a merge. --Gene_poole 23:37, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but "very well known micronation" is an oxymoron. And the idea that it even is a micronation in the first place is only POV. DreamGuy 06:31, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * But notable and reliably sourced POV, and therefore appropriate for Wikipedia as long as it is neutrally described (rather than promoted). PubliusFL 20:41, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Pages are merged when individually they are not notable enough for their own articles. Each of these three have sufficient notability to justify their own article. Even if all his claims are total tosh, Giorgio Carbone easily meets WP:N by having multiple non-trivial sources. If he is merged into one of these articles then logically all political bios should be merged into the articles of their respective countries. BlueValour 04:01, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Disagree... the alleged principality and king articles are certainly NOT notable on their own, and the only notability they have is based upon the the main article, which already has a section fully and adequately describing everything of any importance. With a merge that section could become a little larger, but there's no justification at all for separate articles that mostly repeat the same basic facts present in the others. DreamGuy 06:31, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The micronation is notable on its own, as there are multiple non-trivial reliable sources that cover it. I originally supported separate articles for the micronation and the municipality in order to avoid "tainting" the article about the municipality (which is uncontroversial and mainstream) with potentially confusing information about the micronation (which is controversial and not mainstream).  The topics should be addressed separately.  I don't think merging them is a good idea, for the same reason I think merging Republic of Texas (group) into Texas would be a bad idea.  Fringe information should be segregated from mainstream information.  The article on the individual, however, should certainly be merged into the article on the micronation.  PubliusFL 20:41, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I oppose the mergers. I think that all these micronations are total cobblers but being total cobblers is no reason to eliminate the articles. I guess most on here will be sceptical of the claims of the Flat Earth Society and IMHO Creationism is also total cobblers but there is a whole stack of articles on that. What counts is that the total cobblers should be sourced and these pages are. Gee, dude, this encyclopedia is stacked with unsourced articles - why eliminate some that are? Bridgeplayer 22:46, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * As I've already articulated above, this discussion concerns two discrete entities that share similar (but not identical) names - a micronation and a town. One is a legal questionmark and the other is a legal fact - however both "exist" and are separately documented in all manner of reliable third party sources. Arguing that they should occupy the same article makes no more sense than suggesting that the article about Confederate States of America should be merged into United States of America, or that Independent Sovereign State of Australia (another micronation), should be merged into Commonwealth of Australia just because they share part of a name and claim to occupy the same or similar territories. WP does not exist as a platform for people to promote the POV that "micronations are ephemeral and inconsequential and so should not be documented in discrete articles". WP exists to document reality, and like it or not, micronations - both generally, and in particular - as a very well documented global phenomenon - are an undeniable part of contemporary reality. As such, the only consideration that needs to be taken into account when debates of this nature arise is "is this particular micronation documented in multiple reliable third party sources?" If the answer is affirmative, then WP:N and WP:V are established by default, and there is no sustainable justification for asserting that WP should not have a dedicated article on the subject in question. --Gene_poole 05:22, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Recognition questions
In this artical: "List of micronations" it states that Seborga is recognized by San Marino (which is a UN member state). So my questions are:

--SelfQ (talk) 23:13, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * A. Which article is correct?
 * B. Doesnt that make it a unrecognized sovereign state? (Just like the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus which is also recognized by only one other nation)

 * Seborga does not have diplomatic relations with San Marino or any other sovereign state. --Gene_poole (talk) 04:40, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Does that mean that the list is incorrect?--82.92.144.148 (talk) 12:24, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I think so. The statement in the other article is unsourced and very dubious.  I removed it until someone offers something to back it up. PubliusFL (talk) 16:50, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Principality of Seborga has only a mere symbolic value, so its "prince" and ministers don't really have any legal powers, therefore no international institution (or state) has recognized it, thus it can't have any diplomatic relation with anyone --Frukko (talk) 11:53, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Most sources are nonexistent or fake, this voice needs a thorough cleaning--Frukko (talk) 23:53, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

954
"It came into being in 954, when the Count of Ventimiglia ceded Seborga to the monks of Lérins Abbey, at the foundation of the Cistercian monastery there. In 1079 the Abbot of this monastery was made a Prince of the Holy Roman Empire, with temporal authority over the Principality of Seborga."

Here there is the text of supposed "donation", copy of a document that was in Lérins Abbey archive. The document has the signs, as witnesses, of Thomas (count of Savoy) & of Boemundus (marquis of Monferrato)

The document was recognized as a fake, due the fact that in 954 there wasn't any Holy Roman Emperor named Ludvig, Louis or similar. In the same way there wasn't any king of Spain named Alfonse, Ildefonse oi similar. There wasn't any Count of Ventimiglia in these year: the first count of Ventimiglia was Conrad, ca. 960

In the same way there wasn't any count of Savoy, the 1st count of Savoy being Humbert Biancamano in 1032.

So the March of Montferrat was founded 7 years later.

Perhaps a date possible for this document is around 1220, perhaps.

--Carlo Morino aka zi' Carlo 10:10, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Hohenstaufen descendants
some editor 'Koala' alleges in his own talkpage illegotimacy about women. As that misguided allegation bears specifically to this article, I see it useful to copy Koala's whole (though mistaken) idea here:

 * The house of hohenstaufen has no legitimate descendants today, there way be female dependents, but they are not legitimate. It is a fine line. Since the male line went extinct Conradin there are no legitimate descendants and the line is extinct - and that clearly needs to be shown in this case. Outback the koala (talk) 21:31, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

There is something very problamatic in Koala's that stance - somethiong whivch made me to even suspect he is out of touch from reality. I must say that the Koala is possibly not cognizant of terminological difference between women and illegitimate. There exist next to no people who dare to claim that women and descent through them would be 'illegitimate'. as of fine line, mr Koala obviously is on the wrong side of any fine line, alleging that descendants via perfectly legitimate women and their marriages would be illegitimate.. I sincerely hope that Mr Koala stops spreading his very peculiar notions about geneaogy and legitimacy. By the way, the word 'dependent' (instead of descendant) speaks already for the Koala not grasping even the basic terminology in this. 82.181.234.211 (talk) 21:55, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

 * Simply, there arent any member of House of Hohenstaufen, because name, titles etc. goes ONLY in male line. This women cannot be "Hohenstaufen", and "Plantagenet". Only legitimate prince of Anjou is Prince Charles Philippe, Duke of Anjou, or (if you are "legitimist") Prince Louis, Duke of Anjou.

 * I hope, that unknown anon will use better English and will cease with personal attack. "Outback the koala" is respected member of the community and Anon is .. anon.--Yopie (talk) 23:42, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Koala claims that there are no legitimate descendants of the Hohenstaufen, which is a different thing than saying that legitimate male line is extinct. And in this very case, it is incorrect to allege that legitimate descents via women are nonexistent, while legitimate male line descent truly is extinct. They are not the same thing, as those of us who know genealogy, are well aware. I observe that the Yopie has chosen to join the same falsehood. I think Yopie and Koala need to cease their falsehoods and stop those edits of theirs. I understand Yopie is not fluent enough in English (being obviously a foreigner, from Czechia). Those 'warnings' Yopie distributes here and there, are manifestly unwarranted, and rather a signal of twisted tactics in Wikipedia conduct than anything constructive. For example, Yopie sometimes alleges vandalism in clear cases of non-vandalism. Yopie's such behavior should and may lead to him getting sanctioned. Henq (talk) 02:47, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

as to Yopie's quibbling using unrelated claims, I suppose he means to say that all female-line descents from all dukes of Anjou are illegitimate. But of course those who know genealogy and titles, are aware that strictly speaking, neither of those peinces actually are 'princes' of Anjou, they would themselves be first to admit that their claim is to the title of duke of that. While Louis' daughter may well be known as princess of Anjou, if they so wish. Henq (talk) 02:47, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

 * I agree that, there are legitimate descendants of Hohenstafens in female line. And of course, the head of royal house of France can create princess of Anjou. --Yopie (talk) 11:48, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Possible International Recognition
According to this article one the UK's Times Online website, a consulate from Burkina Faso was opened in Seborga. Is there anything else to back this up? Would this be enough to change its classification to a state with limited recognition, similar to Northern Cyprus which has only one UN member state recognizing it? The exact quote is "Burkina Faso opened a consulate" and can be found halfway down the article. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/obituaries/article6943215.ecePinbob87 (talk) 00:33, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

The link doesn't work. --Carlo Morino aka zi' Carlo 22:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Seborga is unreal
Please dont cancel this statement: Seborga is not real.--2.40.29.26 (talk) 19:45, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
 * This page is for talk about the article, not chat etc. About reality, read Micronations.--Yopie (talk) 21:32, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Seborga
Edit warring on Seborga? I would never imagine... --E4024 (talk) 19:02, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * there is no edit war on Seborga. A user is sistematicallly trying to insert an unverified and unsourced statement that may be removed (even because completely false). --Frukko (talk) 09:15, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I see. Indeed I heard about Seborga for the first time here in WP. I hope it will not become another international dispute area... --E4024 (talk) 09:56, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

35km away from Monaco, not "in sight"
I forgot to log in before making the edit to remove a statement saying that Monaco is "in sight" of Seborga. I doubt that's true, given the distance and hilly terrain; however, it's possible that there's a vista somewhere. If anyone knows that to be so, please revert my change (and perhaps add details and attribution, for example a Google Street View link proving it). --tgeller (talk) 08:29, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Micronations and what they are
Hello User:Kendall-K1. A micronation is per definition unrecognized, so the word in the lead to the article is superfluous. A micronation is however not a fictional country. A fictional country is an item of fiction as film or literature. Micronations are about people who may or may not mean to have founded an actual state, but that state is in all practical terms in the imagination of people and therefore an imaginary state. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 22:14, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Micronations are a fantasy. Perhaps that's a better word. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 23:40, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't see how removing the word "unrecognized" improves the article. I could live with "fantasy" although that word is not commonly used by the sources (worldstatesmen.org uses it along with "unrecognized" but I can't find any others that do). I don't like "imaginary" because that gives the impression that it's not a real place; Seborga exists in the sense that you can visit its supposed territory and talk to its supposed citizens, it's just not a country. Kendall-K1 (talk) 01:12, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Farce state
This is a farce state. See Italian newspaper Il Fatto quotidiano and La Stampa.--Civa61 (talk) 23:57, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Which is not the only matter, but exactly what the article states now. Also it's history as related by the founder is without merit. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 01:12, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Population?
Can someone find the Population or an Estimate of this town/micronation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aman0226 (talk • contribs) 18:07, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

To be honest, they probably have 1 mayor, a post man, many tourists, and no houses. The mayor claims that the tourists are citizens while the postman delivers to Italy because Italy will believe anything. No houses means that the tourists cant stay so the mayor and the postman really have town to themselves. Then the postman more than likely murders the mayor, but who knows. So in the end, their population is probably about 360 million, in my opinion at least. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.56.1.224 (talk) 03:27, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * The population has been added to the page as of January 1 2018. Noxoug1 (talk) 09:52, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Translation of regal title
Sua Altezza Serenissima - the adjective is superlative. Translation should actually be rendered His Most Serene Highness, unless the mistranslation was given as "official" in translation somewhere. Was going to fix but held off in case anyone knew the non-Most version was ever used in English anywhere. Chris Rodgers (talk) 05:24, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I think you're right. Also disappointed that all reference to the alternate and widely cited title Sua Tremendità/His Tremendousness have been excised from the article. Cnbrb (talk) 09:25, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

"This article or section may fail to make a clear distinction between fact and fiction."
In fact, it is all fiction. Needless to say, see WP:HOAX. --Mᵒdᵘlᵃtᵒ.📩 17:29, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

 * Look at the Italian article for what ours should look like. Srnec (talk) 17:41, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
 * the linked it.wiki article is about an old abbey in the real town Seborga. The latter article has a concise section about the alleged "principality", which is made up of few people who wear a traditional costume once a year. Nothing more, nothing less. This "Principality of Seborga" article even has illegal claims — such as the alleged army, which luckily never existed; the alleged "luigino" currency — which technically would be illegal as well — is just a funny name that sounds like a joke in Italian. Basically, it's all a prank, which apparently managed to remain online for a long time. --Mᵒdᵘlᵃtᵒ.📩 17:47, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

If nobody has any objections, I will redirect this article to the section of the real Seborga (which is pretty verbose too, by the way). --Mᵒdᵘlᵃtᵒ.📩 16:10, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

 * There is a whole category of Micronations which covers "entity that claims to be an independent nation or state but is not officially recognized". Depending on your point of view, you may view any of these as "hoaxes" but they exist as Wikipedia articles nonetheless. As far as I can see this article is well cited, which is what matters. A constructive approach might be to review the phrasing in the article, if you feel it is presented too much as fact. It would certainly be more appropriate than deleting the entire article with only 24 hours' notice and barely any discussion. I have reverted your deletion. Cnbrb (talk) 11:52, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Most of the used sources are fake and/or based on the hoax from Wikipedia. In fact, well-known Italian newspapers call it a "farce" (see above). I assume you don't understand Italian — but I might be wrong — otherwise you would have noticed that the claimed "luigino" (!!) currency is a blatant prank. IMO, a section in the real Seborga (just like in the Italian article) is more than enough. —Mᵒdᵘlᵃtᵒ.📩 06:33, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

As an italian, and author of the "Frontier" post photo in the article, I would just confirm that the Principality Of Seborga is mere folklore, nothing legal. Also, as I was stating just a few rows above, most sources were/are nonexistent or fake - and let me say, the article might be misinterpreted by somebody. It'd need for sure to be fixed, always if the community would opt for keeping it. --Frukko (talk) 22:37, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you could help by tagging the sources you want to dispute with  or other appropriate tag. Then we can tackle the "fantasy" elements but retain interesting and properly sourced content. I don't actually object to merging this article into the main Seborga article eventually, but I think it would be better to clean up this article first, and then merge content over. Does that seem fair? Cnbrb (talk) 10:02, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * There you go. I reviewed the first two sections; the rest follows the same approach. Besides, it's useless to add too many "unreliable source" templates to an article that already has the "hoax" template. —Mᵒdᵘlᵃtᵒ.📩 16:16, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

 * Thank you, that made everything much clearer and was very helpful. I've given the article a major rewrite today. I think you were right about some of the sources - WorldStatesmen.org for example looked particularly unreliable, and citations from the official "Principato di Seborga" website were clearly WP:SELFSOURCE. I don't agree that The Daily Telegraph or The Huffington Post are unreliable sources as such, but their citations were being misused to support dubious claims. I think this article's main problems were that it was presenting disputed/aspirational claims as fact, and that it was giving WP:UNDUE weight to the functioning of a state that doesn't actually exist. Rather like the issues around articles discussing fictional works, it was written in a kind of WP:IN UNIVERSE style. I have therefore changed the text to discuss Seborga in a real-world perspective. We can certainly say that Giorgio Carbone has claimed something, but we cannot write about it as if his claims were actually true.

 * In addition, I have removed unsupported claims, all the material presenting a fictional army and fictional royalty as fact, and rescued some dead URL citations. With all that done, I won't object if you feel you want to merge this revised material into the main Seborga article, as the current title is misleading. Cnbrb (talk) 17:57, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

I've addressed all your issues and carried out a major rewrite. You've not acknowledged my contributions, but I see you have re-inserted the tag without any further discussion. It is completely clear throughout the article that any claims of a sovereign state are only claims. Unless you're going to specify what can possibly confuse the reader, then the tag should be removed. Cnbrb (talk) 13:00, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Once again the tag has been added by reverting, with no discussion or substantiation. This article is now perfectly clear and well sourced. No reader would be able to confuse fact with fiction by reading this article - all claims are manifestly described as such, so please either specify which parts of this article are confusing, or stop repeatedly adding an inappropriate tag. Cnbrb (talk) 17:10, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

RFC on fact and fiction issue
Does this article fail to make a clear distinction between fact and fiction? A major rewrite nearly a year ago addressed these concerns, and this Micronation article now makes clear that the claims of Seborgan independence are no more than aspirational. An editor insists that this is not enough. Where might any confusion between fact and fiction be found? Cnbrb (talk) 23:47, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

 * This is not a clearly or neutrally stated RFC. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:08, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Shall I ask for an RFC on the RFC? Cnbrb (talk) 10:12, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

 * Has no issues with fact/fiction distinction. Everything said in wikivoice is factual and level-headed and any claims considering sovereignty and state institutions are attributed. If anything, I think the lead goes a bit too far to maintain fact/fiction distinction through tautological wording ("is an unrecognized micronation") because non-recognition is already included in the concept of micronation. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:06, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
 * This is an article which should have facts about fiction so to speak, so it's not either or. That said, no glaring issues pop up. Maybe the lead could be a bit clearer about the concept of "claims", and the body could perhaps note how many citizens participate rather than implying they all do, but there's no hoax being pushed. CMD (talk) 17:09, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Micronation articles are a little tricky in general (how serious are the claims really?), but this article looks okay to me. I agree with User:Chipmunkdavis that the lead could be a little clearer, but no major problems with fact/fiction distinction that I can see. If someone wants to make the case that there's a problem with the section that's tagged, please ping me and I'll reevaluate. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 17:08, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you all for your useful input. I have addressed the issues raised by commentators. As the RFC has fizzled out after 4 months with no further commentary from editors, it seems the article content is considered to be reasonably encyclopaedic in quality. Cnbrb (talk) 11:31, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Princesses? None, according to this 2021 article
https://genova.repubblica.it/cronaca/2021/01/10/news/seborga_ci_riprova_lettera_a_conte_per_chiedere_il_riconoscimento_di_stato_monastico_autonomo-281926732/ (please use Google Translate if necessary) According to this article, there are no "princesses" in Seborga, let alone armies or whatever. It says that a group of citizens (not even all of them) of the small town, represented by a fellow named Giovanni Luca De Lucia, has just written a letter to the Italian PM in order to ask for some form of autonomy in an attempt to revive tourism. That being said, the princess and yadda yadda is fake news, completely invented. —Mᵒdᵘlᵃtᵒ.📩 11:10, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Principality of Seborga


text:
Automatix

Automatix Inc., founded in January 1980, was the first company to market industrial robots with built-in machine vision. Its founders were Victor Scheinman, inventor of the Stanford arm; Phillippe Villers, Michael Cronin, and Arnold Reinhold of Computervision; Jake Dias and Dan Nigro of Data General; Gordon VanderBrug, of NBS, Donald L. Pieper of General Electric and Norman Wittels of Clark University.

Products

Initial product offerings included the Autovision machine vision system, the Robovision welding robot and the Cybervision electronic parts assembly system. Automatix was one of the first users of Motorola 68000 microprocessors, but because almost no software existed for the 68000 in 1980, Automatix had to develop its own operating system and a robotics scripting language, called "RAIL". Its initial machine vision offering was based on software and hardware licensed from Stanford Research Institute. In the late 1980s, Automatix replaced the proprietary 68000 computer in its vision products with an Apple Macintosh II.

Automatix mostly used robot mechanisms imported from Hitachi at first and later from Yaskawa and KUKA. It did design and manufacture a Cartesian robot called the AID-600. The 600 was intended for use in precision assembly but was adapted for welding use, particularly Tungsten inert gas welding (TIG), which demands high accuracy and immunity from the intense electromagnetic interference that the TIG process creates. Automatix was the first company to market a vision-guided welding robot called Seamtracker. Structured laser light and monochromatic filters were used to allow an image to be seen in the presence of the welding arc. Another concept, invented by Mr. Scheinman, was RobotWorld, a system of cooperating small modules suspended from a 2-D linear motor. The product line was later sold to Yaskawa.

Machine vision systems
Automatix introduced several different machine vision systems during its history:
 * Autovision I, 1981, designed for fast time to market, was based on Vision Module technology licensed from Stanford Research Institute (SRI). The AV I used an early Motorola 68000 KDM prototype board interfaced to a Unibus frame grabber board purchased from SRI. The frame grabber was designed for the General Electric TN-2200, an early solid state video camera with a 128 by 128 pixel array and C-mount lens. DECtape II drives were used for program and data storage.
 * Autovision II, 1982, used a custom designed Versabus 68000 processor with a custom 8-channel RS-170 Versabus frame grabber employing an AMD Am2900 bit slice micro-controller, packaged in an industrially hardened NEMA-12 enclosure.
 * Autovision IV, similar to AV II, but with a patented frame grabber using dual 68000s. Then-new Sony $3 1/2$-inch floppy drives replaced DECtape.
 * AV 5, same electronics as the AV IV, but in a rack mount package.
 * AI 90, 1987, vision system based on an Apple Macintosh II repackaged in a rack mount industrial enclosure, with RAIL ported to Mac OS (MacRAIL). It was announced at the MacWorld Expo in Boston in 1987.
 * Autovision 90, a rack mount Apple Quadra 950.
 * Image Analyst, a software package for Macintosh computers, based on MacRAIL.

The Automatix AI-32 robot controller used the same processor, bus and RAIL language as the AV II, IV and 5, allowing frame grabber and processing boards to be added for integrated machine vision.

Evolution and corporate merger
Automatix raised large amounts of venture capital, and went public in 1983, but was not profitable until the early 1990s. In 1994, Automatix merged with another machine vision company, Itran Corp., to form Acuity Imaging, Inc. Acuity was acquired by Robotics Vision Systems Inc. (RVSI) in September 1995. As of 2004, RVSI supported the evolved Automatix machine vision package under the PowerVision brand.

In August 2005 RVSI itself was acquired by Siemens Energy and Automation who by mid-2008 are marketing the RVSI Visionscape and Hawkeye products alongside their own SIMATIC brand, some of which are re-branded DVT/Cognex smart cameras. In September 2008, Microscan Systems, Inc., of Renton, Washington, acquired Siemens' Machine Vision business, including Visionscape and Hawkeye. As of August 2016, the Powervision system developed by Automatix was still available from RPC Machine Vision Systems, a value added reseller of Microscan. However, in December 2017, Microscan was purchased by Omron Corporation, and its product lines, including MicroHawk and Visionscape, are sold through Omron's distribution network.

title: Automatix