text:
Talk:Punk subculture

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Punk subculture. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111006082011/http://www.citizinemag.com/music/music-0303_kmorris.htm to http://www.citizinemag.com/music/music-0303_kmorris.htm
 * Added tag to http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_g1epc/is_tov/ai_2419101001/pg_1

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 04:36, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Punk subculture. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070212021532/http://www.creemmagazine.com/ArchivePages/1971_05.html to http://creemmagazine.com/ArchivePages/1971_05.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20091002134806/http://www.perthpunk.com/orphans_story.htm to http://www.perthpunk.com/orphans_story.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 16:33, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Punk subculture. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060427073129/http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/music/features/article324977.ece to http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/music/features/article324977.ece
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20091009182637/http://www.artistica.co.uk/2006/01/29/interview-with-charles-thomson-of-the-stuckists/ to http://www.artistica.co.uk/2006/01/29/interview-with-charles-thomson-of-the-stuckists
 * Added tag to http://mobile.avclub.com/articles/with-zines-the-90s-punk-scene-had-a-living-history,104206/?mobile=true

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 23:15, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I propose to merge DIY Ethic into Punk subculture. I think that the content in the DIY Ethic article can easily be explained in the context of Punk Culture, and the Punk Subculture article is of a reasonable size that the merging of DIY Ethic will not cause any problems as far as article size is concerned. I think the information that would be suited best in the Punk Subculture article are the Punk Culture, Music, and the Skateboarding and cycling sections because the page already has a large part of the information. I also think the information would fit well there because the page is filled out with items within the Subculture that could use the supplemental information.

When thinking about this page and it’s function it’s hard to put your finger on it. It doesn’t feel like an Ethics page that discusses the moral of those that use DIY Ethic. If this page were to be truly about people being “self-sufficient” and the morals that people that identify as this type of person use, I think it would be a different story. I also think this a suitable merger because there is constant reference to the DIY Ethic which I think gives it a clearer understanding than the actual DIY Ethic page.

Thoughts on this proposed merger? Lostxxjustina (talk) 15:44, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Edit warring
There appears to be an ongoing edit war over the insertion of this edit. Please discuss your issues here rather than in edit summaries and come to a consensus about what form the article should take. Woody (talk) 16:53, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

 * This shouldn't be confused for edit warring. I did actively change, reword, and improved the quality of the information, based on the commentary in the reverts, so that it would meet Wikipedia standards, which the last edit actually did, but was still reverted. It was an incremental effort to include important information. It should be improved; not entirely deleted from the article. I can only presume it was removed because there is either a personal interest in removing mention of this specific conflict in punk subculture, or from a personal insistence on winning an edit war they want to start; I don't know. The information is exactly the kind of information a wikipedia article about a sociopolitical subculture should at least mention. In either case, the information should not be confused for commentary, as pointing out the existence of a belief in a subculture, and the reasons for its presence in that subculture, isn't commentary. And that information certainly shouldn't be deleted. Rephrasing and reformatting, certainly would be helpful. But information about the ideology of the subculture, and this manifestation of that ideology, are important to an article that is meant to be informative about an ideologically-based subculture. Unfortunately, there are some individuals interested in removing information about this specific internal conflict (i.e. right-wing individuals attempting to, in effect, sweep it under the rug). The last revert mistakenly labelled the information commentary, and dismissed it, under the premise that the multiple direct examples were "relatively minor". Which is both not really true, given the individuals involved are prominent and influential figures in the punk music scene, and also not a legitimate reason to delete information. Even if they were minor examples, minor examples would still be valid sources to illustrate the presence of the phenomenon. They were also called "relatively" minor, which is a tenuous reason to delete something. But, tersely put, the push against right-wing ideology, within punk subculture is an integral feature of punk subculture and the punk identity, and a manifestation of its original ethos. That's significant, and is something that warrants explaining in this article. The main problem is that there is no sort of centralized punk authority to directly quote for this stance, so, although there is an incredibly vast wealth of individual, isolated, anecdotal examples of this sentiment being expressed in the wild, among punks, those examples can't be used to cite the phenomenon (despite the fact they are the phenomenon). Given what punk is, its origins, and that fact it arose as a subculture from explicitly anti-conservative (non-conformity, anti-establishment, anti-corporate, and anti-authoritarian, and so on) ideological tenets, this push against considering conservatives legitimately punk is widespread; it isn't difficult to find the sentiment often shared among punk social circles. In fact, in the same section of the article, this information about the adherence to authenticity as a core part of the punk identity is pointed out:

 * "The issue of authenticity is important in the punk subculture—the pejorative term 'poseur' is applied to those who associate with punk and adopt its stylistic attributes but are deemed not to share or understand the underlying values or philosophy."

 * And when those underlying values and philosophy are in opposition to right-wing ones, that results in the commonly expressed stance that right-wing individuals can't be punk, because of that contradiction. The opposition to right-wing ideology within punk is a manifestation of that ideal of authenticity, and it is even seen in some instances of actual edit wars on punk-related Wikipedia pages in the past. People have made petty edits back and forth over this exact issue. Explaining that it exists is not commentary. Unfortunately, others intend to edit war and remove what is critical information about a socio-politically founded subculture, which I don't really understand, but I changed the the paragraph each time, to meet Wikipedia standards, rather than straight up edit-warring and repeatedly removing information from an article. Really, this article should have some protection put on it. But I digress. Punk is fundamentally ideological. The phenomenon of ideological dispute, and of legitimacy, is a direct result of what that ideology is, and given how widespread the push against considering right-wing punks a par of the culture is, that ongoing conflict warrants inclusion. It's exactly the type of information that wikipedia articles should include, to be informative, especially given how fundamentally ideological the punk subculture is. It's a culturally significant phenomenon, and a part of the punk subculture (again, see "poseur"). The prevalence of that stance against considering conservatives a part of the subculture is something that needs to be outlined in the article. How that information is expressed is up to others that are better able to word things than I am. But it's significant and informative, and, because punk's core ideologies oppose specific other ideologies, that conflict is of note. It's something to include. How to include it is the question. Maybe some citation needed qualifiers would help in the meantime. --2604:6000:A883:A700:5C12:E7A3:D785:F18 (talk) 05:04, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

 * Your edit was removed because it was not supported by reliable sources, and therefore does not meet the required standards for inclusion. The sources you gave were for specific events, not for the underlying thrust of your text.  No-one is necessarily claiming that your edits are untrue - just that they need to be supported by reliable sources, and not simply reflect one individual's personal opinion.  (It would also help if you made your comments a little less wordy.)   Ghmyrtle (talk) 06:52, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

 * No, it was actually supported by reliable sources. The sources used were sources already used in other wikipedia articles, that already meet the required standards for inclusion as reputable and sufficient and reliable sources. Also, the mindset of trying to dismiss those sources for being "specific events" isn't in line with Wikipedia's standards at all, as specific events are often used to illustrate examples of specific, complex, or nuanced phenomena, or even, really, any phenomena in general. Providing prominent examples of exactly the phenomenon being explained is entirely within Wikipedia's standards for articles. It also shouldn't be confused for personal opinion to include an explanation of the existence of this ideological conflict in punk subculture, in the article. Within punk subculture, that ideological conflict is prevalent. Highlighting its existence, and explaining what the reasoning that leads to it is, is not itself opinion, nor is it a statement taking either side. Stating that many punks do not consider it possible to be right-wing and punk at the same time isn't a statement that that stance is true; it's explaining an internal conflict significant to the subculture; one which is rooted in its founational ideology. For example, the act of explaining that punk subculture is rooted in anti-authoritarianism is not itself the expression of an anti-authoritarian opinion, nor a statement that anti-authoritarianism is itself correct. It's a phenomenon in the subculture of significance that should be in the article. How it's explained may remain to be seen. But wholly deleting that information is unconstructive. The information is neither opinion, nor commentary. It is informing readers of something rooted in the core of the subculture. It's worth mentioning, especially given the severity of the conflict (e.g. other people edit-warring in the past over exactly this issue; explaining this ideological conflict is important). Including the phenomenon in the article needs to stop being confused for opinion. And, like I said, rephrasing and reformatting is welcome, and would be helpful, and I'm encouraging it. We need constructive editing; not wholesale removal of information. If you think it needs to be less wordy, then editing the wordiness would help to improve the quality of the article. Deleting it is not. --2604:6000:A883:A700:5C12:E7A3:D785:F18 (talk) 12:57, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

 * Your edit here provided two sources. This one reports a protest against Trump.  This one is slightly better, but it only reports the comments of one person, Jello Biafra.  Neither of those sources provide sufficient basis for the claims in the rest of your edit that: "The fact that such beliefs oppose the original ethos of the punk subculture, and its history, has led to internal conflicts in the punk scene, and an active push against such views being considered part of punk subculture at all. Individuals that hold such views are widely not accepted by the punk subculture, and it is common for many in the punk subculture to actively denounce individuals that hold such views, considering them to be disrespectful to the subculture's core values and to its history. This conflict has resulted in a commonly held stance, within the overall punk scene, that it isn't possible to be both conservative or right wing and punk at the same time, believing them to be incompatable and mutually exclusive, and considering them to be only using the fashion and visual aesthetics of punk, without truly being a part of the punk subculture."  That appears to be your own personal opinion.  Sources may exist that justify making those claims, in a neutral way, but you haven't provided them, and therefore the claims can't be included in the article.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:24, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

 * Well, for starters, it provided three. The first is protest - from a prominent punk band - against conservatives, racism, and fascism. The second source reports both the comments of Jello Biafra (in the video of the incident) and of Tim Brennan (in the interview itself). Please check the sources before dismissing them. The third cited the usage of "Nazi Punks Fuck Off" as an anti-fascism anthem in the punk scene, which, again, illustrates that specific ideological opposition in the punk subculture, and the article on the song itself shows a further link between the song and left-wing political interests (i.e. the anti-racism symbol taken from it). Also, both of those sources do provide sufficient evidence for the information given. They're direct examples from very prominent figures in the punk subculture. They aren't negligible incidents. They are a direct result of the stance in the punk scene that is being explained. And again, how something is explained being the issue is not reason to remove information from an article. If it needs to be explained better, then please edit articles constructively, rather than erasing sections of articles. But also, no, the quote you pulled - in no way - appears to be my own personal opinion. It really doesn't. I didn't insert my own opinion on this conflict. My personal opinions about punk are drastically different that you probably presume. This isn't about me at all. I'm not important; useful information is important.

 * Getting back to the actual article, the ideologies of the punk subculture are explained in the article. They are identifiable values. The subculture is specifically sociopolitical in origin and in ethos. Now, ideologies exist which happen to oppose what those ideologies of punk are. A consequence of that is that some individuals and groups (the examples that were given) happen to involve those opposed ideologies. Pointing out this conflict between the ideologies still isn't any person's personal opinion. The conflict within the punk scene that arises from this conflict of ideological values is also not my opinion. Prominent examples were even given. Many examples exist, but specific, notable examples were cited. And those example cited are entirely in-line with Wikipedia's standards for sources of such a phenomenon, especially given the prominence of the figures involved to the punk scene. And, again, the sources are reliable. They're sources already used in other Wikipedia articles, because they are reputable. And, again, the issue of that opposition to those ideologies also relates to the importance of authenticity to the punk subculture, which is also pointed out in the article, i.e. the notion of poseurs, and I don't see you deleting the section pointing out that phenomenon. In fact, that section explaining the notion of poseurs isn't cited at all. The importance of the ideology and of the authenticity to the values that gave rise to the punk subculture is of significance to the punk identity. That still isn't a personal opinion; it's an extant part of the subculture. If the paragraph needed rephrasing to avoid sounding like opinion, then rewording it would be a constructive edit to make. Now, the notion of there being an incompatibility with and mutual exclusivity to punk is a consequence of that very value of ideological authenticity, and of what punk subculture's values are (which, again, are explained in the article, and are values that are in opposition to right-wing values). That difference between the two branches of ideology still isn't any person's personal opinion. Ideologies can be opposed. These ones in question happen to be. The ideologies inherent to the punk subculture are specific, and are ones in opposition to conservative values (such as capitalist interest, notions of conformity, of preservation of establishment, etc.). Punks telling nazis they very literally are "not welcome" in their scene is a direct example of the push against right-wing ideology within punk subculture. Now, if your issue is with the claim that this conflict is common within the subculture, that's very obviously difficult to quantify, but so is the prevalence of the notion of poseurs, in very much the same way. That in no way is valid reason to entirely delete a section explaining this issue. What sources can be given should be used to show it existence. It is a complicated issue, to be sure, but none of it is my personal opinion, and, in each edit, I increasingly rephrased it to further avoid any potential misinterpretation that it might be opinion, rather than simply an explanation of this phenomenon in punk culture. The idea that explaining that these facts simply exist must be an individual's personal opinion is showing that there's probably some miscommunication happening here. Tersely, sometimes articles about social and political topics involve explaining views held by groups. That doesn't mean the individual that wrote that those views exist holds them. If your issue is that there aren't enough examples of the phenomenon, then an effort to provide more examples might help.

 * Look. Again: Pointing out this ideological conflict's existence, and the reasoning that leads to it is not equivalent to espousing those values and needs to stop being confused for it. This isn't my personal opinion being inserted into an article. It's a conflict in punk subculture stemming from what that subculture's core values are. It's significant and insightful information to have present. Sources do exist that directly illustrate the information given, in a neutral way, and they have been provided. The fact that they are expressing punk views doesn't make them unreliable sources for punk views. They're neutral evidence of punk views, and - again - of prominent figures in the punk scene. You've removed them for reasoning that isn't in line with Wikipedia's standards. You first removed it solely for it being unsourced. That was fair enough, but it was the only reason given, so sources were provided. You then removed it for the sources being "relatively minor". That is an arbitrary and personal distinction, and is not reflective of Wikipedia standards, and does not make the sources negligible. It also was untrue, as they were events of noteworthy attention in media, and by prominent figures in the punk music subculture, in the public eye. They weren't relatively minor, given the scope of the article itself being punk subculture. The examples given are significant and direct examples of that ideological conflict, and of the push against welcoming right-wing ideology into punk. You then moved the goalpost further, using the reasoning that they were "specific examples" to dismiss them, which is not a valid reason to delete information from a Wikipedia article. And you changed to claiming they weren't reliable sources. But they were reliable, and are sources already used in other articles. Then you moved the goalpost even further, claiming they don't provide sufficient basis for the information to be included in the article, even though they actually do, because they are direct examples of it (and even involve direct and unambiguous statements directly telling people expressing those ideologies they aren't welcome). You had criticism that it was too wordy, and in general, made some fair points that would mean it might need tweaking, but not a valid reason to entirely erase information about the matter. What was said isn't opinion of personal position, but is the highlighting of a position of the punk subculture. There is a difference. Claiming that explanations of nuanced ideological information and internal conflicts are somebody's opinion doesn't make that the case. And claiming that sources aren't sufficient doesn't make that true. This is a prominent feature of punk subculture, because of what punk subculture is. If it needs to be explained better, then please explain it better. If "citation needed" should be added, then please include that. I can cite dozens of anecdotal examples, and could point to punk social circles, where the sentiment is regularly circulated, but those aren't Wikipedia-standard. But the existence of this conflict is very much exactly the kind of thing that should be in the article. It is a question of how to present it; not of whether to present it.

 * If you have suggestions on how to best write the paragraph, or examples of the types of sources for such a phenomenon would be acceptable citation, I'm all ears. I'm only trying to include meaningful and beneficial information. I understand it may be nuanced, because it's founded in a subculture's ideological values. But entirely removing this information isn't beneficial, nor is repeated goalpost-moving and edit-warring with the goal of removing information. --2604:6000:A883:A700:5C12:E7A3:D785:F18 (talk) 16:18, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

 * You still fail to get the fundamental point. I suggest you read WP:V - "In the English Wikipedia, verifiability means other people using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source. Wikipedia does not publish original research. Its content is determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of editors. Even if you are sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it. If reliable sources disagree, then maintain a neutral point of view and present what the various sources say, giving each side its due weight."  There are many other guidelines that you need to follow in editing, like WP:RS. And, obviously, be aware of WP:TLDR.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:49, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

 * No, I haven't failed to get the point you're trying to make. Unfortunately, the point you're trying to make is inapplicable to what you're trying to apply it to, which has been pointed out to you several times now. The sources are reliable and the information is verifiable. How it is phrased may still be an issue. The information itself is not. And again, you've kept trying to use a goalpost-moving tactic to edit-war, to keep information removed from an article, which is not constructive. I haven't missed any of the points you've brought up. You've brought up several. Some were legitimate. Some were not. I've responded to each of those points, directly, and it's been pointed out to you why nearly all of them aren't valid reasons to remove the information in its entirety from the article. The valid points you made, I corrected. Outside of the initial lack of sources, which was corrected, the reasons you gave afterward are almost entirely based on personal opinion on the quality of the information, rather than being actual Wikipedia standards (e.g. dismissing "specific examples", and insisting that they're "relatively minor" despite the fact they aren't at all minor, within the scope of the article's topic). At this point, you're simply being vague and not giving any legitimate reasons for the information to be absent. What was in the paragraph was not the belief or experience of an editor. You keep making that mistake. I don't know where the miscommunication is happening, but explaining views held by a group, informationally, is not beliefs or experienced of an editor. And the information is verifiable. Meaningful, reliable, significant examples were provided for all aspects of the information, and the crux of the information (that punk ideology centers around ideologies which are ideologies that are in opposition to right-wing ideologies) is supported by corollary information in the article that explains what the ideologies of punk are. That part is factual and it's confirmed by the article. It seems to be either that idea that you're stuck on, or the idea that this ideological conflict results in the push against right-wing ideologies within punk subculture. But that is also verifiable, and the sources given are reliable and meet Wikipedia standards. Nothing about the information that was presented violates the guidelines that you're pointing out, except arguably that it was too wordy, which - again - only would mean it would need rewording; not deletion. At this point, you're now being very vague and generally opposed to the information, rather than actually constructively giving any legitimate reasons for why the information on the phenomenon of this ideological conflict in punk subculture should be absent.

 * If it's a question of whether the information is opinion, it isn't. That's been explained. Writing about a group's beliefs and stances is not itself opinion. If it's an issue of whether the ideologies are in opposition, they are shown to be, by the article. Tenets of the punk philosophy entail mutual aid, humanitarianism, anti-authoritarianism, anti-corporatism, anti-war, decolonization, anti-conservatism, anti-gentrification, anti-racism, anti-sexism, gender equality, racial equality, health rights, civil rights, animal rights, disability rights, and non-conformity. These are values that are in opposition to right-wing ideologies. They're the core values of the subculture. This opposition, and subsequent confliction of ideologies is factual information, not based in anybody's opinion. Some ideologies are in opposition. This conflict is an example of that. If it's an issue of whether or not this conflict has resulted in the phenomenon of individuals that hold right-wing ideology being not considered punk, and a push against accepting them, then, again, sources of direct examples of incidents resulting from that sentiment - and that sentiment being unambiguously stated by prominent figures in the punk scene - were given. The evidence is meaningful, reliable, and verifiable, and substantive insight into the phenomenon. It's a phenomenon of a type - and of a subculture - for which an ideal source isn't easy - again, there's no concrete, centralized punk authority to make statements on behalf of the subculture to cite - but meaningful sources that meet Wikipedia's standards do exist. If it is a question of the quality of the sources, again, they are reliable and verifiable, in line with Wikipedia's standards, as sources to use as citation. They are sources already used elsewhere, on other pages, having long been approved elsewhere as meeting the necessary standards for verifiability and reliability. They don't conflict with Wikipedia's standards. I'm familiar with them. Simply claiming they aren't sufficient, without having a definite qualifier beyond that claim, as to what disqualifies them as sufficient sources is not constructive, is tautological, and not valid input. If it is a question of if how strong the evidence is for the sources to be evidence of the phenomenon, which is the stance you seem to be taking, then that is nebulous, and not really helpful. The specific examples are manifestations of the ideological position described, and the specific statements involved in all three (the usage in the subculture for the latter), are messages directly of the sentiment that right-wing ideology is not welcomed by punks. That complaint, by the way is not one that has to do with actual Wikipedia standards, but is your own personal opinion. Criticisms of the sources being relatively minor is opinion-based, and it is an opinion that doesn't match the scope of the article's topic; context matters. The context of the article, and the context of the sources are aligned. And the complaint that they're specific examples, again, doesn't have any bearing on whether they work as sources at all. Yes, it is difficult to find Wikipedia-standard sources for this phenomenon. But they do exist, and were used. More would help. Each point you've made, I have addressed very directly, and tried to do so thoroughly, to explain this issue, because it is a complicated and nuanced issue. --2604:6000:A883:A700:5C12:E7A3:D785:F18 (talk) 19:00, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

 * "Tenets of the punk philosophy entail mutual aid, humanitarianism, anti-authoritarianism, anti-corporatism, anti-war, decolonization, anti-conservatism, anti-gentrification, anti-racism, anti-sexism, gender equality, racial equality, health rights, civil rights, animal rights, disability rights, and non-conformity. These are values that are in opposition to right-wing ideologies."
 * Your definition of "right-wing" is quite warped. Literally the only thing you listed that could be argued to be innately left-wing and opposed to right-wing ideology is "health rights", though even that depends on the form of health rights one is talking about. You ignore the fact that Martin Luther King was actually a Republican and his philosophy was staunchly opposed to left-wing collectivism and would put him squarely on the right of today's political spectrum. You also ignore that many right-wing figures from history, such as Vladimir Nabokov, marched in the Civil Rights marches. Ayn Rand, the founder of Objectivism, a decidedly right-wing ideology, was explicitly anti-racist and considered racism an enemy of individualism. Lead singer of the British punk band The Sex Pistols, Johnny Rotten, recently declared his support of President Trump as a "punk president", and many of Donald Trump's supporters supported him because they perceived him, rightly or wrongly, to be an anti-establishment president (an easy conclusion to draw, seen as how almost the entire establishment government, media and academia openly despised him as president).
 * You also ignore that the paragraph preceding yours lists individual freedom, individual liberty, anti-collectivism and anti-government among the core tenets of punk. All four of these values are associated today squarely with right-wing politics and ideology. That paragraph actually perfectly describes Ben Shapiro, a staunch right-winger who, incidentally, is also Jewish and overtly anti-Nazi.
 * Racial-equality, gender-equality, anti-racism, anti-sexism, animal rights, disability rights, anti-war, anti-corporatism, humanitarian aid and non-conformity have nothing to do with the political spectrum - you find these tenets across the spectrum, and I could give you countless examples but I'd be here all day (look at how many giant international corporations are promoting left-wing values and anti-capitalist economics, not to mention the left-wing politicians launching drone strikes in the Middle-East etc). Also, the 3 "sources" you give are simply 3 examples of people under the same misconception you're under that conservativism and/or right-wing politics are synonymous with Nazism. Instead of providing sources making the same mistake you're making - referring to Nazi values as right-wing values - you should be providing sources showing that these values are right-wing values in the first place. Literally none of the right-wingers I'm familiar with believe in Nazi values.

 * Right-wing ideology concerns rugged-individualism, individual rights over group rights, personal responsibility, limited government and capitalism as the best economic system. All of these values are explicitly anti-Nazi and you will not find a self-proclaimed Nazi who identifies with them. You conveniently ignore that "punk" as described in the wikipedia article is anti-collectivist. Collectivism is a specifically left-wing tenet, and anti-collectivism is usually associated with right-wing ideology. The Wikipedia page later explains how punk, as a counter to the mainstream, is a constantly evolving subculture - as the mainstream evolves and changes so must punk to counter it. In recent years "liberal" and left-wing values have become regarded by many as the dominant culture and, as such, "conservative" and right-wing values are now "punk" by definition. This has led both to life-long punks adopting a more traditionally "conservative" style as well as, perhaps paradoxically, conservatives and right-wingers adopting a punk style. This is a separate and totally unrelated concept to neo-Nazis appropriating punk culture, which is indeed a very real thing. However, I feel like your contribution conflates, either accidentally or deliberately, the two issues together.

 * You sound like someone who identifies strongly with left-wing politics and you have an extremely skewed perception and understanding of what "right-wing" actually means. Like many on the Left today you seem to think "right-wing" is synonymous with "Nazi". Again, ignoring the fact the Nazis of Nazi Germany were staunch Socialists, Goebbels himself was a staunch left-winger who hated right-wing values, and Hitler himself claimed he hated the entire political spectrum, left and right etc. I'm trying to not make assumptions about you but you really do sound like one of these paranoiacs who actually believe the absurd notion that all right-wingers, conservatives and people who vote Republican are Nazis. There's a reason the Alt-Right are called the Alt-Right: "Alt" means "Alternative". The fact that all the racists on the right are confined to the "alternative" branch should tell you something.

 * You seem to be unaware that the political spectrum is actually part of the political compass, and you've gotten it into your head that "authoritarianism" is placed on the right of the spectrum, and anti-authoritarianism squarely on the left. But authoritarianism exists on both sides of the spectrum, as does anti-authoritarianism (as does racism, sexism and nationalism, for that matter). When the only form of authoritarian things you're familiar with are from the political "right", then it's easy to mistake authoritarianism for an innately right-wing concept. In Eastern Bloc countries, however, authoritarianism is widely considered to be left-wing, because the people there lived under the Soviet Union. Individualists, rebels and anti-authoritarianists in Soviet Russia would be considered right-wing by today's standard.
 * The opposite of authoritarianism is libertarianism. Most libertarians are also anti-collectivists. This would put libertarianism, by today's standard, squarely in the "punk" ball park. Most libertarians today are right-wing libertarians, but there are also left-wing libertarians. The point is, there are left-wing and right-wing versions of libertarians and, thus, it stands to reason there are left-wing and right-wing versions of punk. But the idea that punk is explicitly left-wing and anti-right-wing is absurd - there are just as many left-wing tenets, such as collectivism, that punk is opposed to. Where I grew up, the north-east of England, punk is and always was considered a right-wing subculture. It doesn't help that in 2016 there was a wide push on the Left to malign Donald Trump and, by extension, all conservatives and right-wingers, as some sort of "white-supremacist", a movement the band Green Day got swept up in (Green Day's lack of knowledge on the subject is evidenced by the title of their video where they called Donald Trump both a "KKK" and a "Fascist" - two groups that historically loathe and oppose each other, despite sharing some common enemies.)

 * I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you genuinely believe in what you're saying and are not just a left-wing activist deliberately and dishonestly trying to demonize right-wingers as Nazis by posting false information. Therefore, I suggest you read some books on the subject that actually explain the differences between left-wing, right-wing, authoritarianism and libertarianism etc. Michael Malice - a staunch Anarchist, anti-Conservative and anti-Communist - is a Russian Jewish American and expert on North Korea, and he has written some good books on the subject from neither a right-wing nor a left-wing perspective.

 * Your edits on the actual wikipedia page would actually be perfectly correct if instead of using the term "right-wing" you used "Nazi" and/or "Fascist". The problem is that you think Nazism and Fascism are innately right-wing, and you're using the term as though it's a synonym for Nazism and Fascism, which it is not. "Far-right" would be a better term to use, but even that ignores that these extremist values exist on the far-left and the far-right (speak to any elderly Polish people and they will tell you that Fascism and Communism are the same thing, and will use the words interchangeably).
 * As such, I've edited your contribution and changed each instance of "right-wing" to "fascist" and/or "Nazi". It's simply inaccurate to say that punk is ideologically opposed to right-wing ideology. It just isn't. The problem is your definition of "right-wing." If "right-wing" simply meant "Nazi" then everything you said would be correct. But it doesn't. Right-wing encompasses a range of political and philosophical views, many of which oppose each other, and it's arguable whether Nazi values find their home there at all. You are correct, however, that Nazi ideology - actual Nazi ideology - is ideologically opposed to punk, and so Nazis dressing as punk and claiming to be punk are appropriating the punk aesthetic dishonestly or ignorantly, and so I have not deleted your paragraph as a whole because it has a lot of merit in pointing this out. The exact same thing is also true of Communist groups like Antifa, who idolize the Soviet Union and Stalin yet dress in punk-style clothes - when in reality the Soviet Union and Stalin were adamantly opposed to punk culture and aesthetic. Des22z (talk) 19:57, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
 * no, joy division and lots of punk and new wave bands wore Hitler youth clothes (because the real fear is the nazism, not delinquant style), the relationship between the extreme right and punk arrived in the 1970s in England, and mainly in France with the political party of " national front" which will enroll punks in its security service. 2A01:CB06:9B:2C00:38FB:C9F0:8715:D50C (talk) 15:47, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

 * I do not have any "personal opinion" on the content of your edit.  I am simply trying to encourage you to understand how Wikipedia works.  Apologies for missing the third of your sources, but that doesn't affect the argument.  All three of your sources are single examples.  They. Cannot. Be. Put. Together. To. Make. The. Case. That. You. Want. To. Make.  See WP:SYNTHESIS.  They may be used in other articles about specific bands, and I'm sure are reliable in that sense, but not to make a general case about the politics of punk subculture.  That needs reliable, preferably academic, sources about the politics of punk subculture as a whole.  I'm sure such sources exist but it is up to you, not me or any other editor, to find them.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:24, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
 * PS: OK, I've now trimmed the text to remove the part that is not supported by the cited sources. I've also trimmed some of the unnecessary words from what remains.  Let that be an end to it.  (And I haven't even mentioned Johnny Ramone.)   Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:58, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

 * That works for me. I'm now getting the sense that the issue was more about the causal link between the reason for the phenomenon and the manifestation of the phenomenon. I'll hope for additional sources in the future to sufficiently explain that connection. Thank you for including the issue in the article as best it can be, currently. --2604:6000:A883:A700:5C12:E7A3:D785:F18 (talk) 20:19, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

bonjour j'ai lu le wiki sur la "culture punk" et d'énorme fautes sur sa provenance et d'autres choses m'ont mis mal à l'aise...

- l'influence principale du punk (anglais) se situe en jamaique, sa forme linguistique première est le "slackness" un phrasé chanté et parlé sur percussions. puis de 1900 aux années 60, mento, calypso (métissage de la culture afro, latine et europe nord) puis le ska et sa souche rythmique. quand les sons des caraibes sont arrivés en angleterre, et donc métissé au swing ou rock'n'roll américain, il est devenu le rock garage, puis punk garage puis punk.

- l'influence principale du punk (usa) se situe au mexique, dans les années 50, et prend lui ses influences du jazz manouche et des rythmiques d'amérique latine qui à force de mélange ont donné le rock garage (mexicain), il s'est exporté vers les états unis, et principalement vers la californie deja influencés par le jazz, le rock afro-américain, et le ska ... si vous etes un punk, vous le savez deja, la communauté mexicaine est l'une des influences majeures de l'histoire californienne (artistiquement parlant) de l'idéal féminin, en passant par le sport, la musique, la musculation, l'architecture, les comics... l'anti conformisme de californie, toute une histoire qui mérite un wiki aussi...

- finalement la seule influence à retenir en realité est le ska, et donc le mot "punk" est un synonyme du rude boy, et non, un titre nominatif à un passage en prison... dans le courant des années 50 le rude boy delaisse son style de bon garcon pour adopter un style de rue, les dreads du rastafarisme en signe de radicalisation, les notes et les temps du rock américain.

- le ska influencera toute les musiques du monde des années 50 à aujourd'hui en prenant des influences d'ailleurs lui aussi, le rock, le rap, l'électro music et meme les sons traditionnels, pour une raison simple, la contestation... chose qui en roumanie et en france sera nettement plus accentué qu'ailleurs pour le rap.

- ironiquement, c'est la scene punk qui donnera ses premières lettre de noblesse à la culture hip hop, deja sous le girond des maisons de disques, blondie, nina hagen, madonna et une multitudes d'artiste aux tendances punk se feront les acteurs de l'histoire du hip hop. en angleterre un titre phare des "clash" sera justement un hommage au émeutes du quartier jamaicain "white riot" en pleine periode de greves massives...

- les skinheads d'extreme droite sont au meme titre que les skinhead d'extreme gauche ou les musulmans rasés, des infiltrés dans babylone, l'apparat exterieur du rastafarisme est la répulsion affichée de babylon... le rastafarisme = les commandements du premier testatement, les punk, la destruction de babylon, le "sans après" ou le "non futur".

essayez de changer quelques trucs s'il vous plait, je sais que c'est trés compliqué de retracer l'histoire du punk, mais en tant que personne qui a pratiqué le slackness, le ska et le punk, qui est né avec des anciens du mouvement et qui parle toujours de cette tendance via l'art, cela fait mal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:CB06:9B:2C00:38FB:C9F0:8715:D50C (talk) 15:37, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Queercore
Under the section "Gender and gender expression," I plan on adding some information about the queercore subculture. Although this section does mention some aspects of queercore culture, such as cross-dressing, many aspects of queercore, such as its existence as a distinct subculture and its focus on queer sexuality, are missing. To remedy this, I plan to add a third subsection under "Gender and gender expression" entitled "Queercore." TomBombadil42 (talk) 18:57, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Punk subculture


text:
Edwin E. Salpeter

Edwin Ernest Salpeter (3 December 1924 – 26 November 2008, ) was an Austrian–Australian–American astrophysicist.

Life
Born in Vienna to a Jewish family, Salpeter emigrated from Austria to Australia while in his teens to escape the Nazis. He attended Sydney Boys High School (1939–40) and Sydney University, where he obtained his bachelor's degree in 1944 and his master's degree in 1945. In the same year he was awarded an overseas scholarship and attended the University of Birmingham, England, where he earned his doctorate in 1948 under the supervision of Sir Rudolf Peierls. He spent the remainder of his career at Cornell University, where he was the James Gilbert White Distinguished Professor of the Physical Sciences. Salpeter died of leukemia at his home in Ithaca, New York on 26 November 2008.

Scientific contributions
In 1951 Salpeter suggested that stars could burn helium-4 into carbon-12 with the Triple-alpha process not directly, but through an intermediate metastable state of beryllium-8, which helped to explain the carbon production in stars. He later derived the initial mass function for the formation rates of stars of different mass in the Galaxy.

Salpeter wrote with Hans Bethe two articles in 1951 which introduced the equation bearing their names, the Bethe–Salpeter equation which describes the interactions between a pair of fundamental particles under a quantum field theory.

In 1955 he found the Salpeter function or the initial mass function (IMF). It shows that the number of stars in each mass range decreases rapidly with increasing mass.

In 1964 Salpeter and independently Yakov B. Zel'dovich were the first to suggest that accretion discs around massive black holes are responsible for the huge amounts of energy radiated by quasars (which are the brightest active galactic nuclei). This is currently the most accepted explanation for the physical origin of active galactic nuclei and the associated extragalactic relativistic jets.

In early 1970s, Salpeter discovered that molecular hydrogen and many other molecular species are formed in the interstellar medium not as much in the gas phase but primarily on the surfaces of dust particles.

Family
In 1950 he married Miriam (Mika) Mark (1929–2000), a neurobiologist born in Riga, Latvia; she was chairwoman of the department of neurobiology and behavior at Cornell from 1982 to 1988. The Society for Neuroscience created the Mika Salpeter award in her memory; it "recognizes an individual with outstanding career achievements in neuroscience who has also significantly promoted the professional advancement of women in neuroscience." The Salpeters had two daughters, Judy Salpeter and Dr. Shelley Salpeter. After Miriam's death, Edwin married Antonia Shouse.

Honors

 * Carnegie Institution for Science Award for Research in Astrophysics (1959)
 * Member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences (1967)
 * Member of the United States National Academy of Sciences (1967)
 * Gold Medal of the Royal Astronomical Society (1973)
 * Henry Norris Russell Lectureship (1974)
 * J. Robert Oppenheimer Memorial Prize (1974)
 * Member of the American Philosophical Society (1977)
 * Karl Schwarzschild Medal (1985)
 * Bruce Medal (1987)
 * Dirac Medal of the University of South Wales (1996)
 * Crafoord Prize (with Fred Hoyle) (1997)
 * Hans Bethe Prize (1999)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Edwin E. Salpeter


text:
Talk:Cross tabulation

The "Wiki users are smarter" bit is cute, but hardly NPOV, is it? Joshua McGee (talk) 06:20, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * It is just my feeble attempt at introducing some humor into an otherwize dry subject. If it offends you, change it. mydogategodshat 17:41, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * I wasn't trying to be a jerk about it. Personally, I like it.  But it's hard to imagine the Encyclopedia Brittanica doing something like this, right?  :-)  I did forget to thank you for a very clear example; I like the article.  Joshua McGee (talk) 23:58, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Something seems wrong with the explanation in the second half of the second paragraph. The reason the rows don't add to 100% is because the table is of the use of wiki for various underwear-types of people, not underwear type for various groups of people based on wikipedia usage. I can't explain it well or I would rewrite it, but I'm hoping someone else who reads this can. Furthermore, the last sentence is blantantly wrong because it implies that the whole table should sum to 100%. It should probably read something like: each cell gives the percentage of people who fall into the column grouping who also fall into the row grouping, but that's a bit long. Scott 04:56, 13 Jan 2007 (UTC)

Wiki users wear boxers or briefs
The article says that these categories are all-inclusive. In order for that to be the case, we would have to assume that all Wiki users are male, or that female Wiki users wear men's underpants.

^^agreed! What would be a good way to fix this problem? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.140.210.168 (talk) 16:43, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

shouldn't there also be a mention that even if we were discussing only male wiki users, the attributes still aren't exhaustive (boxer-briefs, male thongs, etc.)? I'm sure the general user would believe that this is nonexhaustive because females aren't included (save for those that don't identify as either male or female...) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.140.210.168 (talk) 19:24, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Need a section on statistical software
Crosstabs are computed with software on a computer. Large, comprehensive statistical software languages have one or two routines for computing crosstabs.

Language, Crosstab procedure Minitab, Cross Tabulation SAS, Proc Freq, Proc Tabulate SPSS, CROSSTABS S (open source version "R"), freq Systat, ? Stata, ? MS Access, Crosstab query MS Excel, Pivot tables Lotus Approach, ? EPI Info, FREQ Geoda, ? Jim.Callahan,Orlando 01:43, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Regression based statistical analysis of contingency tables (General Linear Model or GLM)
The current statistical discussion of analysis of contingency tables speaks with an ANOVA accent. A simpler, but more powerful way of looking at the contingency tables is using a regression with a collection of zero-one (dummy) indicator variables to code levels.

Y = b0 + b1*X1 + b2*X2 (NOTE: 0,1 & 2 SHOULD BE SUBSCRIPTS Y = variable to be explained or predicted in terms of the other variables = f(X1, X2...) b0 = Y-Intercept (beta-zero) b1 = estimated regression coefficient for first variable (beta-one) X1 = first variable (x-one) b2 = estimated regression coefficient for second variable (beta-two) X2 = second variable (x-two) a complete regression model would include an interaction term (X1*X2) and squared terms (X1*X1) and (X2*X2).

X1*X2 = interaction term (the coefficient of this term measures interaction (twisted response surface) between X1 and X2) X1*X1 = squared term (for X1) measures curvature (fits a parabola) indicating a non-linear effect X2*X2 = squared term (for X2) measures curvature (fits a parabola) indicating a non-linear effect Again we need a software table. SAS, PROC GLM S (open source version "R"), lm Jim.Callahan,Orlando 01:37, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Merge proposal
I think that cross tabulation and contingency table could easily and usefully combined into a single, comprehensive article— G716  <T·C> 05:35, 13 September 2008 (UTC) Having two sections with proper link is better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.40.62.17 (talk) 11:14, 26 February 2009 (UTC) There may actually be a "complete different usage" for the two things, but this is hardly made clear in either of the articles. Can someone add something to make the distinction clear? If a merger is not to go ahead, should the (majority of) statistical stuff be moved out? Melcombe (talk) 09:23, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Support. These are synonyms and I can see no reason not to merge. Qwfp (talk) 05:46, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Doubt. May not be always equivalent? Eg article Gamma test (statistics) suggests that in some instances there may be special statistics for cross tabulations where the variables are both ordinal ... not sure if "contingency table" ever covers this case. However the present article on cross tabulation doesn't, and just seems to have identical coverage to that for contingency tables. Unfortunately the article Gamma test (statistics) is short on information. Melcombe (talk) 16:23, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Doubt. A cross tabulation is a process. A contingency table is the result. Therefore they are not synonyms. Nevertheless, their relationship should be clearly established. In my experience, merging terms and entries leads to confusion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GPacificar (talk • contribs) 21:21, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Object. Although structurally they look the same, from practical point of view they are not always synonyms. The statistical concept of contingency table has a complete different usage than cross tabulation. I support two articles with proper links. FakhredinBlog (talk) 14:36, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Carefully implemented the merge. If in doubt, simply undo the last couple of changes. Grumpfel (talk) 22:09, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

title: Talk:Cross tabulation


text:
Irish folklore

Irish folklore (béaloideas) refers to the folktales, balladry, music, dance and mythology of Ireland. It is the study and appreciation of how people lived.

The folklore of Ireland includes banshees, fairies, leprechauns and other mythological creatures, and was typically shared orally by people gathering around, sharing stories. Many tales and legends were passed from generation to generation, so were the dances and song in the observing of important occasions such as weddings, wakes, birthdays and holidays or, handcraft traditions.

Definition
What constitutes Irish folklore may be rather fuzzy to those unfamiliar with Irish literature. Diarmuid Ó Giolláin, for one, declared that folklore was elusive to define clearly.

Bo Almqvist (c. 1977) gave an all-encompassing definition that folklore covered "the totality of folk culture, spiritual and material", and included anything mentioned in Seán Ó Súilleabháin's A Handbook of Irish Folklore (1942).

It was not until 1846 that the word "folklore" was coined, by English writer William Thoms, to designate "the manners, customs, observances, superstitions, ballads, proverbs, &c of the olden time". The term was first translated into Irish as béaloideas (lit. 'oral instruction') in 1927.

Folktales and songs
Tales have been traditionally recounted in fireside gatherings, such social gatherings, in which traditional Irish music and dance are also performed, are labeled by some as the cèilidh, though this is a term borrowed from Scottish Gaelic. The story-telling, songs and dance were also part of how special occasions were commemorated, on such days as Christmas, Halloween (Oíche Shamhna, eve of Samhain), Bealtaine, held on the first day of May, or St. Patrick's Day. Irish folklore is closely tied with the pipe and fiddle, the traditional Irish music and folk dance.

The keening Caoineadh Airt Uí Laoghaire composed by Eileen Dubh Ní Chonaill in her husband's wake is a piece of poetry passed down by folk tradition.

Other than folktales and legends, the folkloristic genres is complemented by memorates, beliefs, and belief statements.

Handcraft and herb lore
Also part of Irish folklore are the handed-down skills, such as basket-weaving or St. Bridget's crosses.

As an example, shallow wicker baskets called skeeoges as strainers (to empty the boiled potatoes and hot water on, to drain the liquid) were recorded in the Co. Wexford area by Patrick Kennedy in the 19th century. A later folklore collector was unable to ascertain whether this practice was carried out in the locality during the field work in the 1950s (or in the revisit in 1970's). This basket's name skeeoge supposedly derived from the Gaelic word for "shield" (sciath).

The Irish Folklore Commission has accumulated a collection of crosses made on St. Bridget's Day (1 February), and various craft objects made of plaited straw, etc., gathered from across the county.

Folklore can also include knowledge and skills such as, or to treat an illness, i.e., herb lore.

Common themes

There are certain stock motifs, often stereotypes, in Irish folklore.

Fairies
One commentator attributes to Andrew Lang the sweeping definition that Irish folklore is all about fairies. The belief in fairies (an lucht sidhe) has been widespread.

Some, such as Irish poet W. B. Yeats, have divided the fairies into multiple categories and/or species (see Classifications of fairies). However, Irish fairies are typically divided into two main categories: the fairy race and the solitary fairies.

The race of fairy people (Aos Sí) were thought to be descendants of the Tuatha Dé Danann, a godlike race who came to Ireland and conquered the people there. They are described as human sized, beautiful, powerful, and in tune with nature, similar to the modern day fantasy race of Elves.

Instead of living together like the elite fairy race, solitary fairies are secretive and isolated, often staying away from humans and coming out at night. The solitary fairies include a wide range of magical creatures in Irish folklore.

One type of Irish fairy is the female banshee, the death-messenger with her keening, or baleful crying over someone's death, and known by many different names.

Another well-recognized Irish fairy is the leprechaun, which many have identified as the maker of shoes. The cluricaune is a sprite many treat as synonymous to the leprechaun, and Yeats muses on whether these and the far darrig (fear dearg, "red man") are the one and the same. Mackillop says these three are the three kinds solitary fairies, but Yeats goes on to say "there are other solitary fairies", naming the Dullahan (headless horsemen), Púca, and so forth.

The changeling is often ascribed to being perpetrated by fairies. The theme is assigned its own migratory legend type, "The Changeling" (ML 5085).

Fairy land
Fairies are also connected with the Irish traditional belief in the Otherworld (An Saol Eile).

Fairy forts and hawthorn trees, also known as fairy trees, are places where fairies are thought to reside. Thus, to tamper with these sites is seen as hugely disrespectful to the fairies.

Hawthorn tree
There are several trees sacred to Ireland, but the lone hawthorn (aka the "may" tree) is particularly considered a fairy haunt, and patches underneath where the grass have worn down are reputed to be due to fairies dancing. Though literary fiction more than folklore, two consecutive poems by Samuel Ferguson, "The Fairy Thorn" and "The Fairy Well of Lagnanay" describes the lone Fairy Hawthorn (The Whitethorn).

Fairy mounds
The notion that Irish fairies live in fairy mounds (fairy forts, fairy hills) give rise to the names aos sí or daoine sídhe ('people of the sidhe [fairy mound]').

In the instance of "The Legend of Knockgrafton" (name of a hill), the protagonist named Lusmore is carried inside the fairy "moat" or rath by the fairy wind (sidhe gaoithe).

Heroic sagas
Other classic themes in Irish folktale literature include Cú Chulainn, Children of Lir, Finn MacCool, from medieval heroic and tragic sagas.

Folklore material in the 'Pre-Croker period', according to Bo Almqvist's reckoning, do tentatively include various Medieval written texts (the heroic tales in the Ulster Cycle, Finn Cycle, the Cycle of the Kings, and the hagiography of St. Patrick and other saints, etc.), with the proviso that these works can no longer be considered intact folk legends, given the accrued literary layers of the "fanciful and fantastic". However they are an excellent well-source of comparative study, as collected folktales are sometimes traceable to these medieval sagas. An example is the tale of Cú Chulainn's horse remnant in the legend type of "The Waterhorse as Workhorse" (MLSIT 4086), or so argued by C. W. von Sydow.

In the 20th century, the Irish Folklore Commission collected a large corpus of such romantic heroic sagas, particularly the stories of Fionn Mac Cumhail and the Fianna.

Early collectors
For most of the 19th century, collection of Irish folklore was undertaken by English-speakers, and the material collected were recorded only in English.

Thomas Crofton Croker who compiled Fairy Legends and Traditions of the South of Ireland (1825–28) is considered one of the earliest collectors. Croker is the first among the significant "antiquary-folklorists" (the label applied by Richard Dorson) to emerge from mere antiquarians.

Tales in the Irish language
The Irish-speaking West, the Gaeltacht included for example the Aran Islands, where some folklore-collecting was performed by Danish linguist Holger Pedersen back in 1896, though the resulting collection was never published until a century later. The playwright J. M. Synge also included a couple of folktales in his The Aran Islands (1907).

Irish Folklore Commission
Séamus Ó Duilearga (James Hamilton Delargy), who founded the Folklore of Ireland Society and its Béaloideas magazine in 1927, was later appointed to head the Irish Folklore Commission (IFC) in established by the Irish government in 1935. Seán Ó Súilleabháin was the archivist for the IFC since its inception. After having undergone 3 month tutelage in Uppsala, Sweden under C. W. von Sydow on the methods of folklore archiving, the archivist became instrumental in establishing collecting policies for the IFC. One of Ó Súilleabháin's projects was the Schools' Scheme for primary school children to collect folklore (1937-1938). IFC established a network of 200 or 300 correspondents all over Ireland to whom long questionnaires were sent out to task them with particular areas of folklore collecting.

Ó Súilleabháin soon compiled a how-tow guidebook for folklore-collecting fieldwork, entitled Láimh-Leabhar Béaloideasa (1937) in Irish, later expanded and published in English as A Handbook of Irish Folklore (1942). The methodology was based on the Uppsala system he studied, and the books became the standard bible for any Irish folklore collector.

Folktale classification
An effort to catalogue all the known international folk tales in Ireland, either in print or in oral circulation (as of 1956) was mounted by Seán Ó Súilleabháin and Reidar Thoralf Christiansen, culminating in The Types of the Irish Folktale (1963), a compilation of some 43,000 versions under 700 international tales.

Christiansen was the creator of the index of Norwegian migratory legends (ML index), and Bo Almqvist adapted this for Irish legends, calling it MLSIT (for Migratory Legend Suggested Irish Type). Although The Types of the Irish Folktale purportedly deals with folktale but not folk legend, there are found to be some intersections between these comparative study apparatuses.

Sociological trends
Folklore is a part of national identity, and its meaning has evolved through time.

Irish identity
In Ireland the word folklore has deep meaning to its people and brings societies together, it is a word that has ideological significance in the country. To put it succinctly, folklore is an important part of the national identity.

Effects of Christianity on Irish folklore
When Christianity was first brought in Ireland during the 5th century by missionaries, they were not able to totally wipe out the pre-existing folklore and beliefs in God-like fairies. But folklore did not remain untouched, and the myths and Christian beliefs were combined such that Irish folklore would "enforce Christian ideals but still remain as a concession to early fairy belief systems". Christianity altered the importance of some beliefs and define a new place for them in folklore. For example, fairies, who were previously perceived as God, became merely magical, and of much lesser importance. Along with it, a fusion of folklore legends and Christianity was witnessed. One of the major example of this is the existence of legends featuring both Saint Patrick, a central figure in the Irish church, and fairies (for example, "The Colloquy of the Ancients" is a dialogue between Saint Patrick and the ghost of Caeilte of the Fianna, an ancient clan of Celtic warriors).

All in all, the current Irish folklore shows a strong absorption of Christianity, including its lesson of morality and spiritual beliefs, creating a "singular brand of fairy tale tradition".

English colonization
During the 16th century, the English conquest overthrew the traditional political and religious autonomy of the country.

Great Famine
The Great famine of the 1840s, and the deaths and emigration it brought, weakened a still powerful Gaelic culture, especially within the rural proletariat, which was at the time the most traditional social grouping. At the time, intellectuals such as Sir William Wilde expressed concerns on the decay of traditional beliefs:

"In the state of things, with depopulation the most terrific which any country ever experienced, on the one hand, and the spread of education, and the introduction of railroads, colleges, industrial and other educational schools, on the other – together with the rapid decay of our Irish bardic annals, the vestige of Pagan rites, and the relics of fairy charms were preserved, - can superstition, or if superstitious belief, can superstitious practices continue to exist?"

Modern society
Moreover, in the last decades, capitalism has helped overcoming special spatial barriers making it easier for cultures to merge into one another (such as the amalgam between Samhain and Halloween).

All those events have led to a massive decline of native learned Gaelic traditions and Irish language, and with Irish tradition being mainly an oral tradition, this has led to a loss of identity and historical continuity, in a similar nature to Durkheim's anomie.

Folk history
Irish folklore is replete with oral traditions that pertain to historical subjects. This was recognised in Seán Ó Súilleabháin's A Handbook of Irish Folklore, which includes a chapter specifically dedicated to collecting "Historical Tradition". Irish folk history was commonly known by the name seanchas, a term defined by Séamus Ó Duilearga as "orally preserved social-historical tradition." When conducting fieldwork in county Fermanagh, the American folklorist Henry Glassie, a pioneer in the study of folk history, observed that in Irish storytelling "history is a topic for conversation". In his prize-winning works on the memory of the Irish Rebellion of 1798, the Israeli historian Guy Beiner has written in-depth case studies of folk history, powerfully demonstrating the value of folklore for the study of social and cultural history. Beiner has advocated for use of the term "vernacular historiography", which he argues "consciously steers clear of the artificial divides between oral and literary cultures that lie at the heart of conceptualizations of oral tradition" and also allows for the inclusion of folklife sources found in ethnological studies of material and visual culture.

In popular culture
Finnish folklorist Lauri Honko has referred to the re-contexted exploitation of folklore as its "second life". Irish folklore material is now being used in marketing (with strategies suggesting tradition and authenticity for goods), movies and TV shows (The Secret of Kells, mention of the Banshee are found in TV shows such as Supernatural, Teen Wolf or Charmed), books (the book series The Secrets of the Immortal Nicholas Flamel, the novel American Gods...), contributing to the creation of a new body of Irish folklore.

Early modern sources

 * Annala na gCeithre Mháistrí (The Annals of the Four Masters)
 * Keating, Geoffrey (1866) Foras Feasa ar Éirinn: The History of Ireland O'Mahony John (Trans) New York. James B. Kirker Retrieved from Boston College Libraries via Archive.org 12 October 2017 also republished as Keating, Geoffrey (1902–14) Foras Feasa ar Éirinn: The History of Ireland Comyn, David and Dinneen, Patrick S. (eds.) 4 vols. London David Nutt for the Irish Texts Society. Retrieved via Archive.org 12 October 2017

Folktales

 * Anonymous, The Royal Hibernian Tales; Being 4 Collections of the Most Entertaining Stories Now Extant, Dublin, C.M. Warren, Retrieved from Google Books on 4 November 2017
 * Colum, Padraic (1967) A Treasury of Irish Folklore: The Stories, Traditions, Legends, Humor, Wisdom, Ballads, and Songs of the Irish People. New York Crown Publishers ISBN Retrieved from Opensource via Archive.org 10 April 2018
 * Colum, Padraic (1916). The King of Ireland's Son. New York: H. Holt and Company Retrieved from Project Gutenberg via [1] 24 November 2017
 * Colum, Padraic (1918). The Boy Who Knew How to Speak to Birds. New York: The MacMillan Company Retrieved from New York Public Library via Archive.org 24 November 2017
 * Colum, Padraic (1929) [First Pub. 1919]. The Girl Who Sat by the Ashes. New York: The MacMillan Company Retrieved from New York Public Library via Archive.org 24 November 2017
 * De Valera, Sinéad (1927). Irish Fairy Stories, London: MacMillan Children's Books. ISBN Retrieved 27 November 2017.
 * Dixon Hardy, Phillip. (1837).Legends, Tales, and Stories of Ireland Dublin: P.J. John Cumming, Retrieved via Archive.org 23 November 2017
 * Tibbitts, Charles John [C.J.T.] (1889). Folk-Lore and Legends: Ireland. London: W.W. Gibbings. Retrieved via Archive.org 21 November 2017 also republished as Anonymous [C.J.T.] (1904). Irish Fairy Tales Folklore and Legends. London: W.W. Gibbings. Retrieved via Archive.org 21 November 2017
 * Evans-Wentz, W. Y. (1911). The Fairy-Faith in Celtic Countries. London: Oxford University Press. Retrieved via Archive.org 12 October 2017
 * Frost, William Henry. (1900).Fairies and Folk of Ireland New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, Retrieved via Archive.org 6 November 2017
 * Graves, Alfred Perceval. (1909).The Irish Fairy Book London: T. Fisher Unwin, Retrieved via Archive.org 22 November 2017
 * Le Fanu, Sheridan, (February 5, 1870) The Child That Went with the Fairies All the Year Round pp. 228–233 Retrieved via Archive.org 10 April 2018 Republished in Sheridan Le Fanu, Joseph (1923) Madam Crowl's Ghost and Other Tales of Mystery James, Montague Rhodes (ed.) London: George Bell & Sons, Retrieved from Project Gutenberg 10 April 2018
 * McAnally, David Russell (1888). Irish Wonders: The Ghosts, Giants, Pookas, Demons, Leprechawns, Banshees, Fairies, Witches, Widows, Old Maids, and Other Marvels of the Emerald Isle Boston: Houghton, Mifflin, & Company Retrieved via Archive.org 20 November 2017
 * Le Fanu, Sheridan, (February 5, 1870) The Child That Went with the Fairies All the Year Round pp. 228–233 Retrieved via Archive.org 10 April 2018 Republished in Sheridan Le Fanu, Joseph (1923) Madam Crowl's Ghost and Other Tales of Mystery James, Montague Rhodes (ed.) London: George Bell & Sons, Retrieved from Project Gutenberg 10 April 2018
 * Croker, Thomas Crofton (1825).Fairy Legends and Traditions of the South of Ireland vol. 1 London: John Murray, Retrieved from Oxford University Library via Archive.org 6 November 2017
 * Croker, Thomas Crofton (1828).Fairy Legends and Traditions of the South of Ireland vol. 2 London: John Murray, Retrieved from Oxford University Library via Archive.org 6 November 2017
 * Croker, Thomas Crofton (1828).Fairy Legends and Traditions of the South of Ireland vol. 3 London: John Murray, Retrieved from Oxford University Library via Archive.org 6 November 2017
 * Curtin, Jeremiah (1890). Myths and Folk-Lore of Ireland London: Sampson Low, Marston, Searle, & Rivington Retrieved via Archive.org 8 November 2017
 * Curtin, Jeremiah (1894). Hero-Tales of Ireland. London: MacMillan and Company Retrieved via Archive.org 8 November 2017
 * Curtin, Jeremiah (1895). Tales of the Fairies and of the Ghost World: Collected from Oral Tradition in South-West Munster. Boston: Little Brown Company Retrieved via Archive.org 8 November 2017
 * Hyde, Douglas (1890). Beside the Fire: A Collection of Irish Gaelic Folk Stories. London: David Nutt Retrieved via Archive.org 9 November 2017
 * Hyde, Douglas (1896). Five Irish Stories: Translated from the Irish of the "Sgeuluidhe Gaodhalach". Dublin: Gill & Son Retrieved from University of California Library via Archive.org 9 November 2017
 * Hyde, Douglas (1915). Legends of Saints and Sinners (Every Irishman's Library). London: T. Fisher Unwin Retrieved via Archive.org 9 November 2017
 * ; Retrieved from Wikisource 17 October 2017
 * ; Retrieved from Wikisource 07 May 2021
 * Keightley, Thomas. (1892) Fairy Mythology. London: George Bell & Sons, Retrieved from Project Gutenberg 15 October 2017
 * ; text via IA.
 * Lover, Samuel (1831).Legends and Stories of Ireland vol. 1 Dublin: W.F. Wakeman, Retrieved via Archive.org 6 November 2017
 * Lover, Samuel (1831).Legends and Stories of Ireland vol. 2 London: Baldwin and Cradock, Retrieved via Archive.org 7 November 2017
 * MacManus, Seumas. (1899).In the Chimney Corners: Merry Tales of Irish Folk Lore New York: Doubleday and McClure Company, Retrieved via Archive.org 24 November 2017
 * MacManus, Seumas (1900). Donegal Fairy Stories New York: Doubleday, Page & and Company, Retrieved via Archive.org 22 November 2017
 * Wilde, Lady Francesca Speranza (1888).Ancient Legends, Mystic Charms, and Superstitions of Ireland London: Ward and Downey, Retrieved via Archive.org 5 November 2017
 * Retrieved via Archive.org 20 November 2017
 * Yeats, William Butler. (1888).Irish Fairy Tales London: T. Fisher Unwin, Retrieved via Archive.org 20 November 2017
 * Browne, Frances. (1904). Granny's Wonderful Chair New York: McClure, Phillips and Company, Retrieved via Archive.org 22 November 2017
 * Carleton, William (1830). Traits and Stories of the Irish Peasantry, First Series Vol. 1. Dublin: William Curry, Jun, and Company Retrieved via Archive.org 11 November 2017
 * Carleton, William (1830). Traits and Stories of the Irish Peasantry, First Series Vol. 2. Dublin: William Curry, Jun, and Company Retrieved via Archive.org 11 November 2017
 * Carleton, William (1834). Traits and Stories of the Irish Peasantry, Second Series Vol. 1. Dublin: William Frederick Wakeman Retrieved via Archive.org 11 November 2017
 * Carleton, William (1834). Traits and Stories of the Irish Peasantry, Second Series Vol. 2. Dublin: William Frederick Wakeman Retrieved via Archive.org 11 November 2017
 * Carleton, William (1834). Traits and Stories of the Irish Peasantry, Second Series Vol. 3. Dublin: William Frederick Wakeman Retrieved via Archive.org 11 November 2017
 * Carleton, William (1845). Tales and Sketches Illustrating the Character, Usages, Traditions, Sports, and Pastimes of the Irish Peasantry. Dublin: James Duffy Retrieved via Archive.org 11 November 2017
 * Griffin, Gerald (1842) Tales of the Jury-Room in Three Volumes. Vol.1 London Maxwell and Co. Publishers Retrieved via Archive.org 10 April 2018
 * Griffin, Gerald (1842) Tales of the Jury-Room in Three Volumes. Vol.2 London Maxwell and Co. Publishers Retrieved via Archive.org 10 April 2018
 * Griffin, Gerald (1842) Tales of the Jury-Room in Three Volumes. Vol.3 London Maxwell and Co. Publishers Retrieved via Archive.org 10 April 2018
 * Griffin, Gerald (1827) Tales of the Munster Festivals in Three Volumes. Vol.1 London Saunders and Otley Retrieved via Archive.org 10 April 2018
 * Griffin, Gerald (1827) Tales of the Munster Festivals in Three Volumes. Vol.2 London Saunders and Otley Retrieved via Archive.org 10 April 2018
 * Griffin, Gerald (1827) Tales of the Munster Festivals in Three Volumes. Vol.3 London Saunders and Otley Retrieved via Archive.org 10 April 2018
 * Kiely, Benedict (2011). The Penguin Book of Irish Short Stories London: Penguin Books, ISBN 978-0-241-95545-1. Retrieved 27 November 2017 . (Traditional Irish story translated from "The Stories of Johnny Shemisin") (no Date), Ulster Council of the Gaelic League
 * Leamy, Edmund. (1906).Irish Fairy Tales Dublin: M.A. Gill & Son. Ltd, Retrieved via Archive.org 6 November 2017
 * O'Faolain, Eileen (1954). Irish sagas and Folk Tales London: Oxford University Press. ISBN ; ISBN.
 * O'Flaherty, Liam (1927). The Fairy Goose and Two Other Stories, London: Crosby Gaige. Retrieved 27 November 2017.
 * Young, Ella. (1910).Celtic Wonder Tales Book Dublin: Maunsel & Company LTD, Retrieved via Archive.org 22 November 2017

title: Irish folklore


text:
Shenwa language

Shenwa, also spelt Chenoua (native name: Haqbaylit̠), is a Zenati Berber language spoken on Mount Chenoua (Jebel Chenoua) in Algeria, just west of Algiers, and in the provinces of Tipaza (including the town of Cherchell) and Chlef. The speech of Jebel Chenoua proper is mutually comprehensible with that of the nearby Beni Menacer and Beni Haoua, and they are thus treated as a single language. There are some 76,000 speakers.

Phonology
Judging by Laoust (whose work on the language predates systematic phonology), Shenwa has the following sounds, which are given below in the International Phonetic Alphabet along with differing representations in the Algerian standard Latin orthography for Berber languages in angle brackets $⟨⟩$:

Consonants
Comparison with other Berber languages suggests that Laoust's transcription may have failed to distinguish certain sounds, notably pharyngealized.

Vowels
$⟨ṭ⟩$. Laoust's $⟨ţ⟩$ appears to variously indicate labialization or an allophone of /u/.

Nouns
Masculine nouns start with a-, i-, u- (in the singular) – like all Berber languages – or more rarely with a consonant (often corresponding to a- in other languages.) Examples: ayḏi "dog"; fus "hand"; iri "neck"; urṯu "garden". Their plural is usually in i-...-en (e.g. ameţin "death" → imeţinen), but a variety of other plural forms (e.g. i-...-an, i-...-wen, i-...awen, i-...-en, i-...-a-), sometimes accompanied by internal ablaut, are also found: e.g. ijiḏer "eagle" → ijuḏar, iṯri "star" → iṯran, afer "wing" → ifrawen, icer "fingernail" → icaren.

Feminine nouns start with h- (originally t-), and usually end with -t or -ṯ: hagmarṯ "mare", hesa "liver". A few feminine nouns have lost the h-: malla "turtledove". A masculine noun can be made diminutive by adding the feminine affixes: afus "hand" → hafust "little hand". The plurals of feminine nouns fall into much the same types as masculine ones, but adding h- at the beginning and using -in rather than -en: hakṯemţ "female" → hikṯemin, harract "girl" → harracin, huqiṯ "stone" → huqay, hawleliṯ "spider" → hiwlela.

Genitive constructions – English "X of Y" or "Y's X" – are formed as "X Y", in which the prefix of Y changes to u- (masc.) or n ţe- (fem.). Thus, for instance: aman n ţala "the water of the fountain", aglim uγilas "the skin of the panther". n "of" is also used with foreign words: hagmarṯ n elqayd̠ "the mare of the Caid".

Adjectives
Adjectives agree in number and gender with the noun, and are formed in the same way: e.g. amellal "white", azegrar "long", azaim "good". The particle d̠ is used before adjectives in certain contexts (including as a copula), in the same way as in the Kabyle language.

Numbers
As in Kabyle, only the first two numbers are Berber; for higher numbers, Arabic is used. They are iğ (f. ict) "one", sen (f. senat̠) "two". The noun being counted follows it in the genitive: senat̠ n ţuwura "two doors".

"First" and "last" are respectively amezgaru and aneggaru (regular adjectives). Other ordinals are formed with the prefix wis (f. his): wis sen "second (m.)", his t̠elat̠a "third (f.)", etc.

Pronouns
The basic personal pronouns of Shenwa are as follows. Gender is distinguished in all cases except the first person.

The basic demonstrative adjectives are -a "this" (also -ay, -ad̠; -ax for middle distance), -in "that", -enni "the aforementioned". The demonstrative pronouns include:

 * "this": wa m. sg., hax f. sg., yid̠a m. pl., hid̠a f. pl.
 * "this" (emphatic): wayek, hayek, id̠ad̠ik, hid̠ad̠ik
 * "this" (in question): wenni, henni, id̠enni, hid̠enni
 * "that": win, hin, yid̠in, hid̠in

The standalone possessive pronouns ("mine", "yours", etc.) are formed by suffixing the possessive pronouns to "this" (except that ha- is used instead of hax.) Similarly, the adjective "other" (invariable enniḍen) combines with "this" to make forms meaning "the other": unniḍen, henniḍen, id̠enniḍen, hid̠enniḍin.

The main interrogative pronouns are: maţa "what?", manţ "which", manay "who?", mi lan "whose?", miked̠ "with whom?", mid̠eg "in what?", mizeg "with what?", mifeg "on what?", miγer "at/for whom?"

The relative pronoun is i "which".

Indefinite pronouns include yeğ (f. yectenţ) "one, someone", cra "something". Negative forms are made using the Arabic loanword haţa (حتى); haţa d̠ yeğ "no one", haţa d̠ elḥabb "nothing".

Verbs
The declarative mood is divided into two tenses: preterite (past) and aorist (non-past, formed by the addition of a-.) There is also an imperative mood. The irregular imperative ia "come" is used with the aorist to form imperatives of the first person: iaw annaroḥet̠ "let's go". The pronoun affixes for these are given under Pronouns. The declarative mood is also accompanied by ablaut:

 * Verbs whose imperative consists of two consonants or less (e.g. eğ "eat", eγr "read", ezr "see", enγ "kill") add -a to the stem in the 3rd person singulars and 1st person plural, and -i in all other forms: enγiγ "I killed", henγa "she killed".
 * Verbs whose imperative begins with a- (e.g. adef "come in", ad̠er "go down", azen "send") change it to u-: thus ud̠efen "they came in", hud̠efed "you (sg.) came in. (Verbs such as af "find" belong to both this and the previous group.) awi "bring" and awd̠ "arrive" are exceptions, changing a- to i-: yiwi "he brought".
 * Verbs with -a- in the middle (e.g. laz "be hungry", nam "have the habit of", ğal "judge") change it to -u-: elluzeγ "I was hungry".
 * Verbs with a final vowel usually behave like the two-consonant ones: arji "dream" → ourjiγ "I dreamt", yurja "he dreamt"; egmi "teach" → egmiγ "I taught", igma "he taught". But there are exceptions: erni "be born" → irni "he was born".

The participle is formed by adding -n to the 3rd person m. sg., sometimes with ablaut of final vowels: inziz "he sang" → inzizen; ayenziz "he will sing" → ayenzizen, yut̠a "he hit" → yut̠in.

The verb is negated by adding u... c around it: u ţinziz ec "don't sing", u huwired̠ ec "you didn't walk". "Not yet" is u rt̠uci εad̠ or ur uci, where rt̠uci and uci are verbs conjugated in the appropriate person: u rt̠uciγ εad̠ u d yuḍeγ ec "I haven't arrived yet", u hert̠ucid̠ εad̠ ... "you haven't yet..."

Derived verb forms include:
 * a causative in s-: azeg "boil" → sizeg "make something boil".
 * a "reciprocal" middle voice in m-: zer "see" → mzer "be seen"
 * a passive voice in ţwa-: abba "carry" → ţwabba "be carried".
 * Various habitual forms.

Continuous forms can be formed with aql- "see X" in the present tense, ţuγa "was" in the past tense: aqlay ţeţeγ "I am eating", ţuγay ţeţeγ"I was eating".

Prepositions
Prepositions precede their objects: i medden "to the people", sgi Bazar "from Tipaza". Some of the main ones are: i "to" (dative), n "of", d̠eg/d̠i/eg/i "in(to)", seg/zeg-/si "from", s "using" (instrumental), f/fell- "on", γer/γ "towards", akid̠/d̠, "with", jar "among", zat̠ "in front of", awr "behind", i sawen/susawen "under", addu "over".

Conjunctions
Conjunctions precede the verb: ami yiwoḍ "when he arrived", qabel ma ţaγen "see if it's raining". Some important ones include: melmi "when?", ami, γassa(l), assγa, γir "when", ma, kagella, lukan, willa "if", (an)neγ "or".

Sample text
Qaren midden: Unni ayḥağen d̠ug ass, adeffeγen arraw ennes d̠iferd̠asen.

They say: he that tells stories in the daytime, his children will turn bald.

Ţḥağen γir d̠eg iḍ

They only tell stories at night.

Uccen aked̠ waḥzaw/The jackal and the child
''Iğ wuccen iroḥ iggur lami g ufa iğ waḥzaw iţellem i hezra. Innas uccen i warrac enni: "Maţa hellid̠ hegared̠." Arrac enni innas: "Ţellemeγ d̠i hezra." Innas uccen: "Ad̠el ay hirkasin." Arrac enni iţxiyeḍ as iḍaren nes. Lami iqaḍa innas: "Roḥ, aεd̠el iḍaren ennek̠ γer fwit̠."''

Iroḥ uccen yaεd̠el iman es γer fwit̠ lami eqqoren iḍaren u iğim ec ayuwr.

''Ikk ed sin iğ wumcic; innas uccen: "Sellek ay u c eţţγec." Iks as umcic hazra seg ḍarennes. Iroḥ uccen iwalla γer waḥzaw ič as elkul iγeṭṭen.''

A jackal went and met a child plaiting a rope. The jackal asked the child: "What are you doing?" This child replied: "I'm plaiting a rope." The jackal said: "Make me some shoes." This child tied up his feet. When he was done he told him: "Go show your feet in the sun."

The jackal went and showed his own feet in the sun, and his feet dried and he couldn't walk.

A cat arrived and the jackal told it: "Help me, I won't eat you." The cat took the rope off his feet. The jackal went back to the child, and ate all his goats.

title: Shenwa language


text:
James Billington

James Billington may refer to:

 * James Billington (executioner) (1847–1901), executioner for the British government
 * James H. Billington (1929–2018), American academic and former Librarian of Congress

title: James Billington


text:
Talk:Indian Pacific

Verify statement
The statement that this line was opened in 1970 was made by a suspicious user ID. Please verify this statement. --Gary D 06:23, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * From a quick look, appears to verify this as being genuine. -- Chuq 07:05, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Date it was opened
It says the Indian Pacific service started in 1970, but also says that "even in 1968" when the gauge from Perth to Kalgoorlie was changed, a change of locomotives occurred in Kalgoorlie. So was it running in 1968, or not? - Mark 08:39, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

 * as a complete east - west - east service it was opened by 1970 and called the Indian Pacific, prior to this the service was a series of seperate train journeys each on different gauage lines, with seperate ticketing requirments. Gnangarra 05:41, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Connections
What about mentioning the ability to cross over to the Ghan Service in Pt Augusta or Adelaide Gnangarra 05:47, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

re connections
Suggest mentioning ability to connect (the term "cross-over" is archaic) between the "IP" and "The Ghan" at Adelaide only, as GSR does not adverside Pt Augusta as a connecting point between these trains. I travel twice-monthly ex Broken Hill on the "IP" and often sight the departures and arrivals of these trains as Keswick Terminal in Adelaide.--Jslasher 03:13, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

== re GSR's branding of it's first-class and economy-class services as "Gold Kangaroo" and "Red Kangaroo", respectively. I have added this, as these names are cited in all of the GSR brochures, timetables, etc., in print and on the internet.--Jslasher 03:32, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Accidents
What about the Glenbrook train accident? Surely this would rate a mention as one of the Indian Pacific's train accidents. No one was killed or injured on the IP, but it caused a great deal of damage to the car carriage. (JROBBO 12:23, 9 March 2006 (UTC))

Merge proposal
What am I missing? Trans-Australian Railway implies it refers to the stretch between Port Augusta and Kalgoorlie, yet the template there refers to Sydney through to Perth stops. I can't see the need for two articles. —Moondyne 14:50, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The TAR strictly speaking is between Port Augusta and Kalgoorlie, the section Sydney- Broken Hill is the Main West line and the Broken Hill line. What the template on the TAR page refers to is the route of the Indian Pacific, rather than the TAR as such, and should be changed. I will bring this up on the relevant template discussion. The Fulch 02:44, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Oppose - There are two sort of articles - one is about the passenger train service between Perth and Sydney - and the other is about the track - very different in time and space - in the Trains wiki project - they fall under quite separate categories within the trains project.

To join them could possibly set a precedent where articles that exist such as 'the Westland' would then be implied into an article about the Perth Kalgoorlie railway line. In the trains project we have the WikiProject Trains/Passenger trains task force and there are separation of the two in most areas. SatuSuro 15:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I understand the difference but reckon it's better explained in a single article. —Moondyne 15:59, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

 * I think the passenger train Sydney/Adelaide/Perth is sufficiently different from the Pt Augusta-Kalgoorlie railway line to keep them as separate articles. I oppose a merge. Either or both may require minor edits to ensure they are properly focussed. --Scott Davis Talk 14:09, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Oppose - As per other reasons above. Nomadtales 22:25, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Oppose' - the TAR predates the IP by a few decades, and was notable without the train that runs over it. Wongm 00:54, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

How often does the IP run?
The article mentions that the journey takes 65 hours, but unless I've missed something it doesn't say how often the train runs. Could someone please add that information to the article? 81.158.1.156 (talk) 00:44, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
 * IMHO frequency is irrelevant to the article, subject to change and weather conditions such information would turn the article from encyclopedic to advertising, there is a link to the web site which has such information. Gnangarra 01:30, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

 * I believe the train normally runs twice a week. A brief mention of that fact would not be irrelevant. It would at least imply that the train is more of a rail cruise than an integral part of the Australian intercity transportation system—but without having to express that opinion. 66.234.220.195 (talk) 04:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

 * GSR see themselves not as a train operator, but as a provider of hospitality - ie very much a "hotel-on-wheels"Sulzer55 (talk) 10:05, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

January 2008 Clean Up
I just cleaned up and sourced some of what's in the article to the best I could. Couple of questions: Travellingcari (talk) 17:17, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * why the focus on the eastbound route? It seems overly long for what is just one aspect of the journey.
 * is someone falling off the train an incident worthy of inclusion? I'm not sure and I didn't add it, I just happened to come across it in my search for sources. In the same vein, what about the recent incidents in Adelaide?
 * The listed December 75 incident doesn't have a source (I removed the PDF, dead link) and it didn't get a mention in this chronology, does anyone have a source on this?
 * I feel like there's "something" missing, but I'm not certain what that is. Any thoughts?

 * The focus on the eastbound - the westbound trip is exactly the same just the other direction. The person falling off might be worth including, the guy getting hit at the level crossing isn't, it happens to every train at some point. Things to expand? A bigger history section. How the train used to change locomotives multiple times during the journey when it left each state. I would have to do a bit of research on it though. Wongm (talk) 02:36, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Agreed re: history, wiki was being cranky when I worked on this yesterday and the talk page wasn't loading in its entirety so I hadn't seen that checklist above. I've started to do some research on the history and will add that when I can. There isn't anything so far on the '75 crash yet that I can find. I know the westbound trip is exactly the same, I think I worded my question poorly. I think I'm going to try and re-tool the section, it might make my point a bit more clear. Travellingcari (talk) 16:57, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Adelaide turn-around
Is the train turned around at Adelaide, or does it simply get pulled in the opposite direction for the rest of its journey (as is commonly done in Europe)? 66.234.220.195 (talk) 04:43, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * From what I recall when I was on the Indian Pacific, they move the locomotive up to the (new) front of the train, leaving the carriages as they are. Thus if Gold class was at the front from Syd to Ade, then it would be at the rear from Ade to Per. The seats are rotated around so that you aren't traveling the rest of the trip backwardsHarryboyles 04:48, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Change of route, inc Adelaide
Missing from the article is information about how the route has changed since 1970. It didn't run into Adelaide until 1983. 203.7.140.3 (talk) 02:27, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Typical consist
This entire section is inappropriate for a general audience. Only a train enthusiast would understand what it means. Unless it can be rewritten for a general audience then it should be removed. This is only typical for the early 21st century but not typical for the previous 30 years. 203.7.140.3 (talk) 02:30, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

 * A rewrite to list the number of # roomette sleeping cars, # twinnette cars, # club cars, etc might be better. Doesn't help with the past though. Wongm (talk) 02:43, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

 * I agree and noted as much when I first started to work on the article, it needs an explanation and context. I don't even think we need information on what it typically consists of.. is that encyclopedic? TRAVELLINGCARI My storyTell me yours 03:31, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm coming in late on this, but I wish to question the opinions given here, and the deletion of material that resulted from this.

As soon as I saw this, I was curious about what had been removed, but had to dig back in the revision history of the article to find out. Upon reading it, I could quite easily see that this information could be of interest to some readers, and it may be difficult to find elsewhere.

None of the reasons given above seems to me to be good enough to delete this information.

Why is this inappropriate for a general audience? Does Wikipedia have to serve only general readers, whoever they may be? Is there a policy *against* including specialized or technical information? If so, then acting on this policy would hugely shrink Wikipedia to a fraction of its present size - to its detriment, I would suggest. Dare I suggest that, if enough information were provided, railway enthusiasts may find articles like this worth reading, as well as general readers. Those uninterested in such information can easily skip over it if it is clearly labelled with an appropriate heading (as indeed it was).

Unencyclopaedic? Well, what does that mean? I'm not quite sure: but if the purpose of an encyclopaedia is to provide information, I would say that this removed information was *very* encyclopaedic.

"It should be removed if it cannot be rewritten for a general audience" (paraphrased). Surely in this case the remedy is to expand it rather than delete it? If the person who deleted it was unable to do this, then couldn't it have been left for someone more knowledgeable about this to do it?

The information was said to apply only to the early 21st century. But the remedy there is to add similar information pertaining to earlier years.

I am tempted to reinstate the information. (Manually, so as not to remove all subsequent edits.) Am I going to cause a huge stir if I do so? I am considering it, since I cannot see any positives at all about removing it. (And no, I do not know enough to adapt it for a more general audience - but I would like to see someone who *can* perform this adaptation do so.) M.J.E. (talk) 16:52, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Dual gauge section
is wrong, the corridor is dual gauge as far as Northam, where it reverts to single (standard) gauge.

it would be simpler to refer to this, as the train, technically is not on dual gauge track all the way from EPT to Midland Sulzer55 (talk) 12:50, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Indian Pacific. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110410044645/http://www.serco.com/Images/311097GSRacquiresRailwayBusiness_tcm3-673.pdf to http://www.serco.com/Images/311097GSRacquiresRailwayBusiness_tcm3-673.pdf
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.gsr.com.au/our-trains/indian-pacific/compare-service-levels.php
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.gsr.com.au/our-trains/indian-pacific/indian-pacific-outback-christmas.php

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 09:17, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Reverted page move
I've reverted your page move and restored the original title. Journey Beyond Group's own website (https://journeybeyondrail.com.au) lists the 4 train journeys as "The Ghan", "Indian Pacific", "The Overland", and "Great Southern", and the specific page for "Indian Pacific" (https://journeybeyondrail.com.au/journeys/indian-pacific/), also does not use the word "the".  Harryboyles  09:52, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

The only two really transcontinental trains in the world are in Australia, really?

 * The Indian Pacific is an Australian passenger rail service that operates between Sydney, on the Pacific Ocean coast, and Perth, on the Indian Ocean coast. It is one of the few truly transcontinental trains in the world, the other (emphasis mine) being The Ghan which operates from the north to the south of the Australian continent.

IOW, there are exactly two "truly transcontinental" trains in the world, namely the Indian Pacific and the Ghan. Even the Rossiya, which goes all the way from Moscow (Europe) to Vladivostok (on the Pacific coast of Asia) along the trans-Siberian railway, isn't "truly transcontinental". No, really? Or is the Trans-Siberian "not truly transcontinental" because it traverses more than the full length of a continent? — Tonymec (talk) 23:32, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Edit of day before yesterday (my time, UTC+2) by has much better phrasing. Tonymec (talk) 19:33, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Indian Pacific