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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Common outcomes/Archive

This page is an attempt to make a collection of precedent-setting Votes for Deletion decisions. These decisions are either a record of the first time Wikipedians have confronted a certain issue, or the first time a convention-breaking decision was reached. It only includes those decisions that have the potential to decide the fate of large numbers of articles.

While pages like What Wikipedia is not play an important role in VfD decisions the body of precedent also plays a crucial role. However those precedents tend to be only vaguely remembered and only by veteran Wikipedians. It is hoped this page can act as a quick reference to remind old users and educate new ones of previous VfD decisions.

It is also hoped this page can also help reduce the arbitrariness of deletions by creating a more concrete body of examples of what merits inclusion.

Note that some of these precedents are long outdated and should probably be revisited, after that is done this page should be updated.

Could an article with 1430 Google hits merit inclusion? - Yes

 * Affectional orientation
 * Ed Poor May 28, 2002, because : only one Wikipedian advocates the term; I\'ve never heard of it (could be reduced to a single sentence or even a clause in Sexual Orientation article
 * Wow! This wikipedian must get around, I found 1,430 webpages by searching for this term on Google. --maveric149
 * I agree; I think this article has to be kept. --Daniel C. Boyer

Should a term that is used in scientific articles but has no formal definition have its own article? - Yes

 * Quantum flux The definition is absolutely wrong. "Quantum flux" is not a term used in any branch of physics I'm aware of. -- CYD
 * The term is used in at least one journal article I found on google (abstract: ), but I can't glean enough information from that usage to figure out what it means. Some searching through the physics SPIN journal database indicates that it's been used in 41 indexed articles in prominent peer-reviewed journals over the past decade, so it appears to be a legitimate but not very common term. --Delirium 05:10 27 Jul 2003 (UTC)
 * I've got full text access to those SPIN hits, here's what I found. The SQUID people (like what Delirium found) seem to be talking about a magnetic flux -- some kind of magnetic effect which is inherent to the device rather than externally applied. There's a paper in Phys Rev D called "Quantum flux from a moving spherical mirror". They use it to mean particle (or probability) flux. It's closer to what Reddi's talking about. I'll quote some of it at Talk:Quantum flux. -- Tim Starling 05:44 27 Jul 2003 (UTC)
 * The SQUID term refers to the magnetic flux quantum, which is a magnetic flux that is quantized due to the presence of a supercurrent. Using "quantum flux" to refer to it is okay, but it's not a precise technical term. The mirror stuff is obviously referring to a flux of photons. I'm putting up a temporary page, but I still think the page should be deleted

Should dictionary definitions that have potential to become real articles be kept? - Yes

 * Reason
 * Vicki Rosenzweig July 8, 2002, because : wikipedia is not a dictionary, and this is essentially circular
 * It isn't much, I agree, but I don't know that an article with so many links to it should be deleted. Why surrender so easily?  I just grabbed the article on Reason from the 11th (every encyclopedia in the house has an article on reason or reasoning), so I'm sticking that in there. Ortolan88, Monday, July 8, 2002

Can articles on words with extensive etymology and usage sections be valid - Yes
Than

 * Dicdef --Rlandmann 05:47, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete - dicdef - Texture 14:14, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. I think we should allow dicdefs to be speedy-deletion candidates. - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 16:49, Mar 4, 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Information on contested issues of English usage is valuable and encyclopedic.  Smerdis of Tlön 17:11, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Expanded with etymologies, reworded. -- Smerdis of Tlön 20:44, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete, transwiki to Wikipedia where its new expanded form will fit well. Warofdreams 18:19, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. This is a description of language, not a dictionary definition. Jamesday 00:36, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Now redirects to grammatical particle, should it be deleted from this page? Circeus 19:46, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)

Could an article on a word that originated in German be valid? - Yes

 * Verboten - Dictionary definition. Can't think of any conceivable encyclopedic content that could go under that name. Delirium 04:44 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)
 * Axe It! -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo-stick 12:09 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)
 * This is linked from List of German expressions in English, which encourages the creation of such pages, and coexists with many similar ones. Arguably, the entire list is more a thing for Wiktionary than for Wikipedia, but while it exists, I see no reason why this individual page should be removed. --Eloquence 16:53 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)
 * Ah, didn't notice that. Perhaps the list has some place in Wikipedia, as a documentation of German influence on the English language through contemporary word-borrowing (rather than common heritage).  However, I don't think there need to be separate pages for these words, since that'd degenerate into a dictionary.  So I'd support deleting essentially all the pages linked from that list. -- Delirium 02:21 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't delete them. We should move them to Wiktionary instead. Emperorbma 07:47 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Are some famous phrases encyclopedic? - Yes

 * Evil reptilian kitten-eater from another planet
 * "The article is not actually about evil reptilian kitten-eaters from another planet, in which case it would be patent nonsense; it's about a locally memorable political incident that marked or caused a turning point in political affairs. This probably falls under the same category as Checkers speech, above the threshold for being encyclopedic."

 * Colorless green ideas sleep furiously and Noam Chomsky/Colorless green ideas sleep furiously
 * This sentence is meant to explain concepts. Let's explain the concepts, not the sentence. djk
 * The sentence itself is famous enough for there to be an article on it. It's been the subject of contests, included in poems, etc., so the sentence itself is of interest, not just the concept it was illustrating.

Are some prefixes and suffixes valid? - Yes

 * Ab-, -oid
 * Wikipedia is not a dictionary
 * And these are not dictionary entries, they are explanations of a common prefix and suffix, respectively. They may be a bit short, but they are not dictionary definitions.  See super.

Are some articles on idioms appropriate? - Yes

 * Grain of salt, Grain of salt/Poetic interpretations and Grain of salt (philosophical interpretations)
 * Grain of salt is a brief explanation of the English idiom "to take with a grain of salt". Wikipedia should not have articles on individual idioms, even though it might be worthwhile to start an article "English idioms" to parallel [English proverbs]. Grain of salt/Poetic interpretations and Grain of salt (philosophical interpretations) are both redirects to User:Stevertigo/Grain of salt (philosophical interpretations), which contains some interesting but non-encyclopedic speculation about the "grain of salt" idiom --Ryguasu
 * Wikipedia certainly should have articles on some individual idioms. Maybe not this one, but I'd hesitate to delete. --The Cunctator
 * Regardless of one's take on this, I think it is particularly obvious that Grain of salt/Poetic interpretations and Grain of salt (philosophical interpretations) need removal. Stevertigo already has a personal copy of these in the user namespace, so no one should get too offended if we remove these redirects. --Ryguasu

Names
See also: Criteria for inclusion of biographies

Are all surnames valid topics for articles? - No

 * Noyes
 * jheijmans June 28, 2002, because : wikipedia is not a genealogy index
 * Toby Bartels, Friday, June 28, 2002 : I can see arguments for keeping it, but not strongly enough to make them. However, if somebody else does and we do keep this, then all of the alternative spellings should redirect to this article, not be linked from it!
 * Content moved to metapedia. Page is ready for deletion by another sysop. See Noyes

 * Note: This decision is inconsistent with later practises and should probably be revisited. (See Deletion policy/names and surnames.)

Are some disambiguation pages for people with the same surname valid? - Yes

 * Lafontaine - a diambig page for the surname "Lafontaine" -- I don't think we should start to create diambig lists for surnames. -- till we *) 18:50, Aug 2, 2003 (UTC)
 * I created the page, mostly because it was listed on the requested pages. I think it has for a long time been wikipedia practice, if not policy, to make disambig pages for commonly linked to surnames.  e.g. we already have ones like Wesley, Strauss, Schumann, Russell, and Scarlatti, and other pages like Baker and Miller that are mostly lists of people with the surname. - SimonP 19:19, Aug 2, 2003 (UTC)
 * It's fine as disamb. Quite useful. Sometimes ppl just know of a famous person by their surname (Shakespeare). --Menchi 21:06, Aug 2, 2003 (UTC)
 * I'd keep it. -- Jake 12:06, 2003 Aug 3 (UTC)

Are all first names valid topics for articles? - No (move to wiktionary)

 * Uwe: a dictionary entry on the personal name. Not anyone by the name, the name itself. -- John Owens 16:19 19 May 2003 (UTC)
 * It's a useful stub. --The Cunctator (from the edit summary when removing entry from page)
 * User:The Cunctator seems to vote against deletion, thinking it's "a useful stub", and that that's enough reason to remove it from VfD immediately and *cough* unilaterally. I disagree. -- John Owens 00:15 20 May 2003 (UTC)
 * Well, credit where it's due: that's half right. It is a stub, albeit a microscopic one. It's not useful in its current form, however, and difficult to imagine how it could ever become so. I vote to delete it. Tannin 04:00 20 May 2003 (UTC)
 * I think it's a useful stub. You disagree. Does that mean it should be deleted? I think a much healthier policy is to not delete entries that people reasonably disagree on whether it should be deleted. But hey, if you prefer killing information to keeping it, then maybe that should be the Wikipedia Way. --The Cunctator
 * It would be useful as part of an article on Etymology of names or something like that, yes. But Wikipedia entries should be about Uwe himself (if there were one that stood out), not about the word "Uwe". That's what http://wiktionary.org/ is for. -- John Owens 05:07 20 May 2003 (UTC)
 * I agree that it's not a finished article, but I think it's a good start. If you think it belongs on wiktionary.org, I'd hope you think you have an obligation to put that content there before you delete it. Part of my bias is that I want Wikipedia to end up being a true encyclopedia, not an emulation of a paper one. I see that you feel it's necessary to leave the ad hominem commentary in. Pity, that.--The Cunctator
 * What harm is this inoffensive stub doing to anybody? Why shouldn't there be enyclopaedia articles about names and their provenance, history, meaning, etc?  I'm with The Cunctator on this.   GrahamN 05:47 20 May 2003 (UTC)
 * I agree with John in that I think information on the provenance, history, meaning, etc. of words or names belongs in Wiktionary. Articles such as Timothy or John should continue to talk about people with that name, not the name itself. I vote for moving this page to Uwe and replacing the current page with an interwiki redirect. -- Tim Starling 06:23 20 May 2003 (UTC)
 * Is there a policy supporting the presence of interwiki redirects? I don't like them. If someone clicks on an internal link in the Wikipedia, they expect to stay in the Wikipedia. To redirect them out of it without their approval is just confusing. -- Oliver P. 17:17 20 May 2003 (UTC)
 * I don't like them either, not least because they are difficult to edit. I won't mind if someone deletes it altogether. But it is only an orphan, so internal links are rare. If you want to discuss this further, I suggest we move to Wikipedia talk:How to use redirect pages. -- Tim Starling 00:28 21 May 2003 (UTC)

 * Note: This decision differs from current practice and should probably be revisited. (See Deletion policy/names and surnames.)

Are common Chinese surnames encyclopedic? - Yes

 * Talk:Zheng (surname)

Are all parish councilors encyclopedic? - No

 * Rob Fenwick not clear that he was even elected. Is every local councillor going to get an entry (I was a parish councillor once, so think about this!) jimfbleak 17:10 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)
 * I agree, dump it. A quick google search turns up dozens of Rob Fenwicks across the world, none of whom are that particular one (of the pages I've clicked through to anyway). --Delirium 18:04 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)
 * Keep; this is, probably, Don Foster's best-known assistant. Pizza Puzzle 18:20 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)
 * There's probably only a sentence or two of verifiable information about him at this stage. They could go in Don Foster's article, maybe, but the connection is a little tenuous. Hmm. I'll think about it... -- Oliver P. 22:44 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Are some city councilors encyclopedic? - Yes
Stig Olai Kapskarmo is a young regional politician in Norway and judging by the article is a fine member of the local community. I do however contest his current notability in a broader encylopedic sense. I should also note that I have taken the liberty of removing notice of his birth from pages October 27 and 1980. --Ianb 15:36, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * He seems like a nice young man, but a local council seat isn't really notable. Unless the environmental organization he leads is a lot more prominent than it sounds, he probably isn't notable. -FZ 15:51, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Update: I note that of the council members for Baerun, only the district leader and Stig have thier own entries. -FZ 15:58, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * Agreed, local government isn't notable enough. Vote to delete.—Rory ☺ 16:24, Sep 2, 2004 (UTC)
 * Aye, local government is good but not good enough. Delete. Saint will 17:44, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete: too minor. Geogre 18:12, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Neutral: could someone please clarify "local government isn't notable enough"? Presumably mayors of New York City are notable enough. How about NYC city council presidents? NYC city council members? Their respective equivalents in (say) Seattle? Mexico City (bigger than NYC, but not in the English-speaking world)? etc.? Is there actually a policy on this, or is this just a matter of arbitrary intuitions? -- Jmabel 19:45, Sep 2, 2004 (UTC)
 * I considered members of what I consider to be equivalent local government in my locality and decided that they didn't merit inclusion. Others will use their own methods to decide on notability.—Rory ☺ 23:04, Sep 2, 2004 (UTC)
 * Personally, my line is "effect outside of the local realm." It's the same as a local restaurant.  If it affects only the town, it's not encyclopedic.  If it affects beyond the town, it is.  So the Mayor of New York City is in, because he leads in a number of ways.  Borough Presidents, though, affect only their particular 1/5th of NYC.  Thus, the political leader of a city, even a small one, gets in, but legislators and office holders usually don't.  Some, though, like Eliot Spitzer, or several like him in California, make the news, lead the nation in prosecution, regulate important industries (like the NYSE), etc.  I try to distinguish between the purely local and the local but notable. Geogre 00:37, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Political leader of a city? That would depend how you define 'city'. There are places in the US that have 'city' in their name that are the size of a large village in the UK. Average Earthman 08:44, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Again, this is my personal criterion. However, all mayors, even of cities with tiny populations, get state duties and representation, have rights with regard to state actions, etc.  I.e. they affect the world beyond their towns, and not in the "has many friends" or "was enjoyed by children of all ages" way. Geogre 14:04, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep or merge with Bærum and redirect. anthony (see warning) 15:18, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * My personal criteria is anything that's decent sized (i.e. at least a hundred thousand), the city council members belong. They're verifiable, and I'd say encyclopedic. [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 20:41, 2004 Sep 3 (UTC)
 * Keep. Norwegian version is discussed on the norwegian wikipedia, BTW. --Dittaeva 20:24, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Elected politician - no matter how local (and local Co. Co. is deserving enough) Various Co. Co. politicians regularly make the news here in Ireland. Wikipedia is not running out of storage AFAIK. If this was a US politician he'd be kept immediately. zoney ▓  ▒ talk 11:44, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep, for pretty much the same reasons stated by zoney. --DMG413 01:28, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Norway has over 400 counties. at 50 councilmen each that is about 20.000 persons. Also, the environmental organization is a local preservation society. This is non-notable, especially in the English Wikipedia.--MaxMad 13:31, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * I will note that Bærum is one of the largest counties of Norway, with more than 100 000 inhabitants, it is also the richest and one of the most well-known. In comparison has the fylke (province) of Finnmark around 70 000 inhabitants. The vast majority of the over 400 Norwegian counties have only a few thousand or even only a few hundred inhabitants. 14:04, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Even though Bærum is One of Norway's largest counties, Norway is one of the world's smallest countries. I will still stress the point that this has no place in the English Wikipedia. In addition this guy does not have a long record of council service, or been part of any major decisions worthy of mention, no matter how young and promising he is. If at some point in the future he is elected to the Storting(Norwegian parliament), he would have a place here.--MaxMad 06:28, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * I have searched through Aftenposten[1], VG[2] and Dagbladet[3], three of Norway's largest national newspapers. None of them have any mention of the name Kapskarmo. He is not notable in Norway, and not notable in the world.--MaxMad 06:28, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * And none of them have public paper edition search archives, and their web-editions are largely replicas of small newsagency articles. So while our search is valid, it is very limited. Also, the english wikipedia is not some kind of world wikipedia, nor is it an english culture wikipedia, it is the wikipedia written in english. Are you suggesting that norwegians aught to place things concerning norway in the norwegian wikipedia (the wikipedia written in norwegian)? There are inhabitants in Norway that don't know norwegian, but do know english, and could find this useful.--Dittaeva 17:36, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Does 955 Google hits and some media attention merit inclusion? - Yes

 * Anibal Verón is an orphan article about an innocent bystander. Although his death is tragic, is he historically significant. Kingturtle 02:01 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)
 * IMO harmless; leave it. -- Infrogmation 08:11 Apr 18, 2003 (UTC)
 * His name gets 955 hits on Google (mostly in Spanish), and another 160 as "Veron". He's considered a martyr by some, and there is an Argentine worker's movement named after him, which facts I've added to the text. --Infrogmation 17:34 Apr 19, 2003 (UTC)

Does five Google News hits from local papers alone justify inclusion? - No
After being kept in May 2003 and February 2004 Sarah_Marple-Cantrell was deleted in July 2004. See Votes for deletion/Sarah Marple-Cantrell for more.

Are ten Google hits enough for a person no longer alive today? - Yes

 * Elizabeth Hawkins-Whitshed is not really an article, and on Google, there are 10 hits, 3 of which are from Wikipedia, while the others seem to be about different people with that name. Adam Bishop 05:09 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)
 * Climbing any serious mountain with a skirt seems a bit... --Menchi 05:12 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)
 * I bet Bill Brasky did it. Adam Bishop 05:19 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)
 * She was a mountaineering pioneer, and wrote several books. It's true that there aren't many Google hits, but there should be! (There are a couple more under her married names.) I'm sure more information will turn up about her later... -- Oliver P. 14:40 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Does a site that indicates 2 million visitors merit inclusion for its creator? - Yes

 * Jacques Kinnaer - this person does not seem to be a major figure ... yet. olivier 08:37 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)
 * A student in his Masters degree? Doesn't sound very ...professional, yet. Nice site, though. --Menchi 18:24 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I was going to agree with deleting, but that is quite a major and professionally done site, and the counter indicates it's gotten over 2m visitors. If accurate that's probably on the borderline of encyclopedic, though the article should be slightly changed to note that his 'claim to fame' is the website, not his academic work in egyptology. --Delirium 21:45 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)
 * I agree with Delirium--the site would be his best argument for inclusion. A simple article seems like a fitting thing to me (if it became five paragraphs on his contributions to Egyptology, that would be another matter of course). Jwrosenzweig

Is a person whose death received nationwide attention encyclopedic? - Yes
See Talk:Jamie Murphy (soldier)

Redirects

 * Moved to: Redirects for deletion/Precedents

Does 14 Google hits necessarily merit inclusion? - No
Puchland, a minor website with virtually no relevant Google hits other than Wikipedia mirrors. Somehow survived VfD back in May 2003 - SimonP 01:16, Sep 2, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Wow, went from 14 hits to well, let's see, filter out the Wikipedia clones... about 30, and most of those seem to be for some polish company? Are they actively trying to be non-notable? Should have been deleted the first time. -- Cyrius|✎ 03:43, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. It's not a website of its own anyway, just another forum / community thing. Wikipedia is not DMOZ. --Ianb 06:20, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Reading over the May VFD in the discussion page, it was claimed that someone was editing this article. However, as it stands, the article isn't very long and it has been, what 5 months?  -- Allyunion 10:22, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete: Wikipedia is not a web guide. I'm not sure why it was kept, even with an active editor. Geogre 12:33, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep again. You can't just keep listing these over and over again. anthony (see warning) 15:10, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete: Wikipedia is not a web guide. Andris 15:21, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. I have absolutely nothing against using informed, well-researched websites as a basis for a Wikipedia article, but this excerp from Puchland ahrdly fills me with great encouragement that this is an article of the age, or even the year, the hour, the minute, or the second.

"The community takes pride in the weird names of its members, and the even weirder topics of its discussions and competitions. The Great Rabbi of Trivium and the Hanar (Chief Nerd) are two of the leading figures in this community.

"Trivia competitions, Limerick composing competitions and weird debates (such as one about various kinds of pickles) can be found in the community. Puchland regularly distributes valuable prizes for the winners, which includes "Nekudots" and trips to exotic places. Puchland is mainly a Hebrew-speaking site, although English speaking members also participate."

Do Wikis that have very low Alexa rankings merit inclusion? - Yes
See talk: Talk:Recyclopedia/Delete

Do Wikis that have very low Alexa rankings merit inclusion? - No
See talk: Talk:McFly

Are some lists where what is to be included difficult to define valid? - Yes

 * List of ethnic groups
 * I doubt this article will ever be useful due to the lack of any acceptable definition of what counts as an ethnic group. (i.e. my grandmother will punch anyone that calls her Italian, but few people actually recognize Sicilian as a distinct ethnic group and language.) The only direct link is ethnic group (a redirect) which should be an actual article IMHO. Tokerboy 04:29 Nov 15, 2002 (UTC)
 * A link of perceived (if you will) ethnic groups is quite useful. When I read, Sicilian I want to be able to look it up on the list and see what it is referring too. Lir 05:14 Nov 15, 2002 (UTC)
 * According to the Ethnologue, there are 6,800 main languages--virtually all of them (except sign languages, Esperanto, etc) are probably a distinct ethnic group. There are also 41,000 dialects, according to Ethnologue.  If even 1/10 of them are also ethnic groups, we're talking about a list 10,000 long.  It would be nice, but not feasible. Tokerboy 09:47 Nov 15, 2002 (UTC)
 * That sounds like an argument against wikipedia altogether. Yet we already have 90,000+ articles... Lir 01:55 Nov 16, 2002 (UTC)
 * Why couldn't we try to work together on a fair, consensual, acceptable definition of "ethnic group"? I believe it will be perhaps hard, but not impossible. --G
 * I tried to start, please follow :-)

Are lists of trivia sometimes valid? - Yes

 * List of songs with titles that don't appear in the lyrics (and related)
 * This is Everything2ish. While it might be fun, it's trivia and doesn't belong in an encyclopedia.  Also, these lists will necessarily become overwhelmingly long when it's more than the pet bands of a few contributors; if people started adding in all of the songs from many different musical genres and locations.  It's not like these songs are a rare occurence, anyway.  DanKeshet 21:28 Mar 5, 2003 (UTC)
 * Who says trivia has no place in an encyclopedia, and who are you proposing should be the judege of what's trivial and what isn't? If you just have a look at the edit history of this article, you will see that a great many Wikipedians consider this a very interesting topic. Mkweise 21:42 Mar 5, 2003 (UTC)
 * I'm going by What Wikipedia is not #11: "List repository of loosely associated topics". As for who should be the judge, I'm not going to propose any new decision-making policy; I followed normal procedures and put it on votes for deletion for discussion.  As for the fact that many people find it interesting, that is not and has never been one of the criteria for whether something stays in Wikipedia.  Many people on Wikipedia find long, drawn-out debates interesting, but we try to discourage that stuff anyway, because this is an encyclopedia and not a debate forum.  DanKeshet 22:08 Mar 5, 2003 (UTC)
 * Absolutely not - do not delete this list. It has seen ample contributors and is as suitable for an encylopedia as any other "list of" article.
 * I agree that this should be deleted. The moment I saw this article I burst out laughing. Some lists are useful but this is one step too far. It is irrelevant trivia that hardly belongs in an encyclopædia but some music magazine. What next? A list of left-handed rock stars? People with six toes? World leaders who dye their hair? JtdIrL 21:45 Mar 5, 2003 (UTC)
 * Gee, you almost convinced me. After all, if we let this one stand then we might have to let the truely useless lists like List of famous gay, lesbian or bisexual people, Lists of citizens of nations on the American continents, and List of P Funk members stand as well.
 * Encyclopædias do list countries, and do list prominent gay/lesbian/bisexual people. They don't list rubbish like this list. (BTW, I'm sure Susan, Lir and Vera will have no difficulty reaching a consensus either) JtdIrL 22:09 Mar 5, 2003 (UTC)
 * I see nothing wrong with the article. Im sure Jtdirl and Stevertigo-Zoe will soon reach a consensus. Susan Mason

Are sexually explicit articles sometimes valid? - Yes

 * Fisting -- Do we really want to have an article about something like this? If so be advised that it will open up a whole slew of similar things. (206.156.242.36)
 * It may not be an attractive concept, but it exists so yes, we should have it here. ÉÍREman
 * Presumably, we should delete all sex-related entries except for missionary position? Martin 00:03 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)
 * Not that I *want* to see an article deleted, and I'm no prude (I could tell you stories!); but if "fisting" is allowed, what about articles on "Reverse Cowgirl," or "Urination Fetishists"? Eventually, you'll start to wonder if they're being made up as jokes or if it's real. (And I assure you, the Urination Fetishists are quite real...there's even subgroups that pee on stuffed animas and the like.) So, what I think I'm trying to get at is this: is there a line, and where is it drawn?
 * Essentially there is not a line that's drawn on offensiveness. Just on quality of the entries. --The Cunctator
 * Where else can one find neutral information on sexual fetishes if not here?. --Steveguy

Are all articles on hateful slogans valid? - No (redirect to a topic with a more neutral title)
See:
 * Talk:AKFD/merge
 * Talk:AKFD/existence
 * Talk:AKFD/title
 * Talk:AKFD/redirect
 * Talk:Anti-gay slogan
 * Talk:Homophobic hate speech/deletion

Are articles on non-hateful slogans sometimes permissible? - Yes, but it might be a good idea to have the world 'slogan' in the title
See: Talk:Slogan 'Jesus is Lord'/Delete. However: Talk:The science is settled

Can software used by fewer than 700 people be encyclopedic? - Yes
See: Talk:MineSweeper3D

 * Note: this decision conflicts with current practice and should probably be reviewed

Are personal reviews and commentaries encyclopedic? - No

 * O Brother, Where Art Thou/ReviewSummaries
 * Don't think that reviews should be in Wikipedia, inherently NPOV. Jeronimo
 * Agreed. I had this here before, but user:The Cunctator removed it.  I forgot why.  But glossing over a review and attributing it to the reviewer (e.g. Roger Ebert) is not the same as including the entire review as an "article" of its own.  Collecting reviews is, IMO, not what we're here for.  Relevant bits (if any) should be incorporated into the article for O Brother, Where Art Thou? and the rest discarded.  --KQ

Is some Internet culture encyclopedic? - Yes

 * You have two cows
 * Chain e-mail jokes, not an encyclopedia topic. Nate Silva 19:24 Sep 29, 2002 (UTC)
 * I disagree. I think it is a good example of the internet culture. If we had too many of those, ok. But is just that one (and maybe a few others i haven't seen.--AN 19:50 Sep 29, 2002 (UTC)
 * If it's an example of Internet culture, then, great, it should be attached as such, not as a free- standing entry.David de Paoli
 * This is a fine and relevant piece and an article which palpably demonstrates and links to many of the -isms on the display within it. user:sjc
 * An article on this kind of jokes is fine, and one or two examples are also fine, but this many is useless. It is impossible to list all such jokes here, and unnecessary as well. The article should tell something about this kind of joke, its history, importance and give some examples and perhaps external links such that you can find more of them. Jeronimo
 * I believe we should keep it here. As a matter of fact it is an internationally known scheme; it is humouristic, but it has attracted general interest worldwide, and this is what usually an encyclopedia reports. See also new introduction. --Gianfranco
 * This is a real encyclopedia article about a bit of Internet humor. It cleverly incorporates the humor into the article.  With all the links in place, it is fine.  Ortolan88
 * I would be all against deletion of this page, I think it is good. However, I still think that Wikipedia is not there as a depository of jokes, and as such, cropping the list might well be a good idea. Removing the page certainly isn't. Andre Engels
 * The article used to be a subpage of Internet humor. It has since been moved from its / page. I don't think it should be deleted. --Stephen Gilbert

Are all source texts encyclopedic? - No

 * Washington's Farewell Address
 * This is original material and not an article about his speech. I think this is not what wikipedia is. -- JeLuF 22:20 Oct 8, 2002 (UTC)
 * I think this is useful, although I don't know the specific policy about this type of thing. In any case, it could easily be made into an article, but in my view such a speech has historical significance and fits in an encylopedia, but that's just my view. -- Ram-Man
 * I respectfully disagree -- having complete source material of this length is counter to our stated mission: we are an encyclopedia (hence we condense and summarize human knowledge, not regurgitate it), to be NPOV (hence we can't have POV material -- and a speech is inherently POV), we are a wiki (hence people should be able to edit and change material (therefore changing what GW said). Now having an article on the speech would be a very good thing. Then it would be appropriate to extract short passages for explanatory purposes (still not the best for a wiki but less material means there is less text to keep track of to make sure it is what he actually said). See What Wikipedia is not number 12. Hosting source material is not part of what we do here. This would make for a very interesting sister project (see Project Sourceberg). If we had such a sister project we could call up only certain lines and have those display in an uneditable box. Otherwise the entire speech would be at our sister site and just a click away. --mav

 * Editor's note: such a sister project now exists, and is called Wikisource.

Are short almost useless stubs to be kept? - Yes

 * Pluto (god)
 * Food for thought: This was a vandal's nonsense, which was removed and replaced with a stub. But it's an awful stub. It's a single sentence that serves only as a definition. There's actually more content on the redirect page Pluto! This isn't the fault of the person that wrote the stub, really, because I wouldn't expect every vandal's nonsense to be replaced with a functioning stub. But I say that it's better to delete the page outright than put something that's worthless in. Yes, if you really write an article, then that's even better. But deleting is better than a mere definition. — Toby 02:08 Aug 15, 2002 (PDT)
 * The short version of this vote is: Wikipedia is not a dictionary. — Toby
 * I vote against deleting it. There's no need to delete stubs. See also my note at Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia policy on permanent deletion of pages - Jeronimo.
 * The reason is that seeing a live link to [A] in the article [B] gives the impression that [A] has been written, which in this case was not true. (Well, it was written at Hades, so I redirected it there. But the principle remains.) [A] should also appear on Special:Wantedpages, which can't happen if a worthless stub is there. A page can definitely do more harm than good if it makes readers more likely to follow a useless link, or makes writers less likely to write a new needed page. If I can't write a good stub (see point 5 in particular), then I'd rather not have one at all, for these reasons — Toby 02:35 Aug 15, 2002 (PDT)
 * Don't delete it, but I don't think it needs to be much more than a redirect to Hades; I started trying to add content and then realised that I was just trying to rewrite that page with Greek->Roman name changes. --Bth

Are How-Tos sometimes encyclopedic? - Yes

 * How to demonstrate osmosis with eggs and How to demonstrate osmosis with potato slices
 * For obvious reasons, I hope. (sign your name please!)
 * Could do with a rename & rewrite, but I don't see a problem -- Tarquin 19:01 Feb 26, 2003 (UTC)
 * As the initial author of how to demonstrate osmosis with eggs [but not potato slices]] I can't see what your obvious reasons are. If you'd be kind enough to spell them out explicitly I could defend the page better but: here goes anyhow. Osmosis is an important topic and IMO experiments that demonstrate the principle liven up the topic. This is a particularly simple experiment, which any potential reader who has an interest in osmosis can perform. In writing the article I was guided by the How-topage which states that instructions for doing things are suitable for wikipedia even if they do not ordinarily occur in a paper encyclopaedia. Theresa knott 20:12 Feb 26, 2003 (UTC)
 * I'm not really in favour of these kinds of articles. The next thing you know we'll be getting how to boil an egg and how to light your farts. Mintguy 23:34 Feb 26, 2003 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with howtos, they can be both informative and fun. Although how to light your farts would probably need a safety disclaimer and/or a link to how to find your local burns unit in a hurry. Seriously, if the osmosis things are real articles, why would we delete them? Puzzled, Nevilley 23:45 Feb 26, 2003 (UTC)
 * I am against howtos on Wikipedia, because it is very hard to write them in an NPOV-compliant way. The existing &s demonstrate this very well. The original author usually has a particular idea how to do a certain thing and does not care to supply or research alternatives. Moreso, an NPOV HOWTO would probably read terrible ("Do this .. but you could also do this. Some people suggest doing that first. But if you do that first, the order of the following steps has to be reversed, at least according to some people .." etc.) --Eloquence 04:22 Feb 27, 2003 (UTC)
 * Since there is now the sister project WikiBooks, this is the proper place for HOWTOs IMHO. Andrew pmk 01:59, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

More at: Wikipedia talk:How-to articles

Are conspiracy theories sometimes valid topics? - Yes

 * Bush family conspiracy theory - for all the rewrites this is still a ludicrously paranoid fantasist's dream article. It is neither encylopædic nor NPOV just some garbled wacky theories from those who believe the Bush family should really be renamed the 'Antichrist' family. The fact that after various attempts by competent contributors it is still bordering on the looney suggests this is an article that deserves the bin or its own page on the 'nutty conspiracies' website, not a page in a credible encyclopædia. (The fact that it has me defending the Bush family is indicative of how nutty the page is, for I am not exactly a fan of the political version of the Brady Bunch!) FearÉIREANN 02:33 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)
 * As it stands now this article doesn't seem to me to be anything like as bad as you are making out, Jtdirl. These conspiracy theories certainly exist, and it doesn't seem unreasonable to have an article about them.  Maybe it needs some work, but then which articles don't?  I vote to keep it.  GrahamN 13:17 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)
 * Looks okay to me. I say keep it. -- Wapcaplet 13:44 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)
 * Not only is this a widely held and common theory, its also true. Keep it. Pizza Puzzle
 * It isn't widely held, it is not a common theory, stating it is true is POV and the article at present in paranoid rubbish. If it is worth keeping (and I very much doubt it is) then it needs a fundamental rewrite, major NPOVing and dramatic culling. As it stands it is a paranoid joke. FearÉIREANN 21:03 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)
 * I really don't think it is appropriate to infer that I am "paranoid" for believing such "rubbish". Just because you support Bush, doesn't mean everybody does. And yes, we have very "paranoid" reasons why we don't support him. Pizza Puzzle
 * As an actual US resident, I can state authoritatively that various conspiracy theories are indeed widespread among the Democrats, and it should be Wikipedia's duty to at least list the claims and the factual tidbits on which they're based, as well as the other facts tending to discredit. It's hard to find NPOV writeups on many of the theories, this is the kind of thing that would make Wikipedia stand out on the web.  For instance, my wife the Bush-hater hears some of these theories from her friends, and I'm always wishing for an objective source that explains the situation. Stan 21:26 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Can a town with a population of 1 be encyclopedic? - Yes

 * Ervings, New Hampshire
 * New Amsterdam, Indiana
 * Hibberts, Maine
 * Lost Springs, Wyoming
 * places with a population of one. Not encyclopedic.
 * How are these so much different from the places with a population of 0, 2, 3, etc.? Twombly, Maine could easily become a town with 1 person, if someone moves out. The above might become a town with 0 people. I think these are pretty interesting articles to have (though hard to keep accurate). -- Wapcaplet 01:54 15 Jun 2003 (UTC)
 * Keep 'em. Are the articles about places with no people (eg Gulf City, Florida) okay, and places with two acceptible, but not one? Why is it not "not encyclopedic"? They are harmless, and if anyone ever comes across some reference to one of those places and wants to find out something, possibly usefull to someone. -- Infrogmation 05:19 15 Jun 2003 (UTC)
 * I see absolutely no reason to remove these places. Wikipedia is not paper, we don't have a problem with space, why not let them stay? -- Zoe

Should Wikipedia duplicate the work of other sites like IMDb? - Yes
I suggest that all articles about movies and tv shows be scrapped, and instead have the links point to the apropriate page on the Internet Movie Database. www.imdb.com Their database is already amazingly thorough, and appears to be around to stay. No point in rewriting copious amounts of information which already exists in a well organized form elsewhere Vroman 23:12 1 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * 1) Descriptions at IMDB don't link back to other related articles on Wikipedia (such as interesting locations, years, film technologies, and people other than cast and crew)
 * 2) IMDB's license is restrictive
 * 3) IMDB data won't be directly available in an offline edition of Wikipedia
 * 4) IMDB is available in English only (and possibly partially in Italian and German, though the links don't work), so that wouldn't help the many other languages Wikipedia is available in.

 * It's certainly appropriate to link to IMDB for additional information, but it doesn't replace free, integrated descriptions. --Brion 23:37 1 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * There is never a good reason to delete perfectly good material from the Wikipedia. Wikipedia isn't paper.  We can create perfectly good NPOV articles, something IMDB doesn't even try to accomplish.  -- Zoe

 * I agree with keeping those articles. If we have a britannica, why do we want a different one from scratch. -- Taku 00:10 2 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * Agreed, no reason to delete any of them. Forever free, not tied to any commercial concern, etc. etc. One thing that could certainly be said about Wikipedia's articles on movies and TV shows, though, is that they would benefit from some standardization (especially in terms of the nice things that IMDB does, such as links on all cast and crew), but that'd be hard to implement in the Wikipedia format (since we prefer linking on commonly-used names; disambiguation would be a nightmare for larger collections). A wiki devoted just to movies and TV shows would not be a bad thing. We're probably not there yet, though. -- Wapcaplet 00:58 2 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * Ok, I see your point. Would it be possible to write a bot that would automatically translate IMDB pages into wiki articles, like the city pages from census data? Vroman 09:51 2 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * No, because IMDb is copyright, and they are unlikely to license their content under GFDL any time soon. -- Tim Starling 10:17 2 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * we could bot-ify their filmography lists, since they are plain data and not copyright as such. But please, anyone who does this: reverse the lists into forward chronological order when you do this, ie oldest first, newest at the foot of the list, so it reads in the same order as other chronologies on Wikipedia -- Tarquin 10:34 2 Jun 2003 (UTC)

 * I'm afraid not - lists are copyright too. The moment you organise data into a list (for example, in alphabetical order) the list can be copyright. What we really need is a boilerplate layout for film pages. CGS 17:56 2 Jun 2003 (UTC).

 * I don't think that is correct. Lists are only under copyright if there is some creative process in either selecting or ordering them. Putting things into alphabetical order is just about the least creative way to order them, and as such does not fall under copyright. Alphabetical lists, chronological lists etcetera are not under copyright, unless either the items in the list are, or the collection is. Andre Engels 16:34 4 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Are some common household objects deserving of articles? - Yes

 * Cooking pan. It is hardly an encyclopædia topic, the article is a barely encyclopædic stub, the item in question is called a frying pan (or, if referring to something else (quite what he is referring to is unclear, a cooking pot.) Are we really going to have pages of cooking utensils now? It sound like it belongs in a cooking dictionary, not here. (This seems to be one of a number of cooking utensils entries this user seems to be creating, BTW) FearÉIREANN 00:43 5 Jul 2003 (UTC)
 * And how is it that cooking pans are less important than, say, altar rails? There is actually quite a lot to say about cooking utensils, and they actually matter to me, unlike altar rails which are utterly irrelevant.  And speaking as an amateur classicist, I can say that researchers today really really wish Varro and the Suda had seen fit to say more about the mundane items of everyday life in ancient times. Stan 04:16 5 Jul 2003 (UTC)
 * Your agenda as always is hilarious, Stan FearÉIREANN 06:16 5 Jul 2003 (UTC)
 * I support cooking utensils on Wikipedia (see Talk for reasons) Martin 18:21 5 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Are some articles on specific polls valid? - Yes

 * 100 Worst Britons I am not going to argue the case. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo-stick 00:28 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)
 * Discussion moved to Talk:100 Worst Britons. Summary: Jtdirl defended the lists as being "compiled in valid surveys by reputable media organisations that were the subject of major public debate", and KF agreed. SimonP pointed out that they were "basically primary sources". I brought up the matter that the lists might be copyrighted by their compilers, but Jtdirl dismissed this, saying, "There are no copyright issues with these polls." -- Oliver P. 07:09 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Is a religion with a web-site but no other proof of existence sometimes encyclopedic? - Yes
See Talk:Yoism, Talk:Brianism

Are all articles on non-standard theories and pseudoscience encyclopedic? - No.
See Votes for deletion/Reciprocal System of Theory

Are 'year in' articles for individual countries sometimes valid? - Yes
See

Should all stubs on individual episodes of television shows be kept? No, they should sometimes be merged into one article

 * The Magic School Bus Plays Ball - stub about an episode of an obscure children's educational program, The Magic School Bus. More useless stubs also present...--Robert Merkel 04:36, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)
 * Other useless stubs are; Television episodes: The Magic School Bus In The Haunted House, The Magic School Bus All Dried Up, The Magic School Bus Meets The Rot Squad, The Magic School Bus Hops Home, The Magic School Bus Gets Eaten, The Magic School Bus Inside Ralphie, The Magic School Bus For Lunch, The Magic School Bus Gets Lost In Space, The Magic School Bus Kicks Up A Storm, The Magic School Bus Gets Ants In It's Pants, and The Magic School Bus Goes To Seed; Books: The Magic School Bus explores the Senses, The Magic School Bus and the Electric Field Trip, The Magic School Bus inside a Beehive, The Magic School Bus inside a Hurricane, The Magic School Bus in the Age of Dinosaurs, The Magic School Bus on the Ocean Floor, The Magic School Bus lost in the Solar System, The Magic School Bus inside the Human Body, and The Magic School Bus inside the Earth. - Efghij 04:39, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)
 * I absolutely agree regarding the Magic School Bus stuff. Keep the main page but collapse the separate pages into a table on that page, no reason to have all these stubs. Chadloder 06:06, Aug 7, 2003 (UTC)
 * Summarize content in main article, but keep redirects. No need to list on VfD, really, but a job for someone with some free time on their hands.—Eloquence 06:23, Aug 7, 2003 (UTC)
 * Er... I could do it.. infact I've already started.. um yeah Evil saltine 06:25, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Are high schools encyclopedic? - No
Note that the above result is an anomaly -- most of them do in fact get voted for deletion, and only a few, depending on who shows up to VfD, and sometimes particular facts about the school/article length sway things. --Improv 06:32, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Which ones get voted for vfd is a precedent, not a fundamental truth on a subject's worthiness. I've seen many school articles up for vfd, and I've never seen one without potential.  I've never seen a school article which would confuse or misinform users actually looking for information on a different subject, and I've never seen a school article with no notability, no way to verify facts, or inherent, incurable bias (which would always be good reasons for deletion).  --L33tminion | (talk) 23:40, Nov 1, 2004 (UTC)
 * I don't think it is true any longer that most of them get voted for deletion. Philip 04:22, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * High schools are currently on heavy debate. Universities are by nature notable, but for high schools this is doubtful. Radiant! 22:37, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * All secondary educational institutions are inherently noteworthy. Then when you take into consideration that we have plenty of room on Wikipedia for minor Star Trek characters who appear in a single episode, Pokemon gymnasium instructors, minor Nintendo power-up items, and Star Wars planets, technologies, battleships and even Star Wars laws, it really begs to be asked why we're even discussing the notability of high schools.  --GRider\talk 19:17, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Just in case it is unclear, the preceding paragraph is GRider's personal opinion, not a statement about precedent. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:15, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, most of whats written on this page is not precedent material, nor is it coherently presented. --GRider\talk 21:10, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * In late May 2005 someone did a review of the last 64 nominations of high schools. Not one of them had been deleted. CalJW 05:11, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Are all articles on 9/11 victims encyclopedic - No
See talk: Template:VfD-911victims

See also:

 * What's in, what's out
 * deletion policy
 * Importance
 * Google Test
 * Votes for deletion archive May 2004 holds the history of VfD from May 28, 2002 until May 27, 2004
 * Wikipedia utilities/Page titles to be deleted holds the history from December 28, 2001 to May 28, 2002
 * Page titles to be deleted holds the history of Vfd from November 26, 2001 to December 28, 2001


text:
Desire (Bob Dylan album)

Desire is the seventeenth studio album by American singer-songwriter Bob Dylan, released on January 5, 1976, through Columbia Records. It is one of Dylan's most collaborative efforts, featuring the same caravan of musicians as the acclaimed Rolling Thunder Revue tours the previous year (later documented on The Bootleg Series Vol. 5). Many of the songs also featured backing vocals by Emmylou Harris and Ronee Blakley. Most of the album was co-written by Jacques Levy, and is composed of lengthy story-songs, two of which quickly generated controversy: the 11-minute-long "Joey", which is seen as glorifying the violent gangster "Crazy Joey" Gallo, and "Hurricane", the opening track that tells a passionate account of the murder case against boxer Rubin Carter, who the song asserts was framed. Carter was released in 1985, after a judge overturned his conviction on appeal.

A well-received follow-up to Blood on the Tracks, Desire reached  on the Billboard Pop Albums chart for five weeks, becoming one of Dylan's best-selling studio albums, and was certified double Platinum; the album reached   in the UK. It claimed the  slot on NME Album of the Year. Rolling Stone named Desire  on its list of The 500 Greatest Albums of All Time. It was voted number 761 in the third edition of Colin Larkin's All Time Top 1000 Albums (2000).

Context
Desire was released between the two legs of Dylan's Rolling Thunder Revue tour. By 1975, Dylan had extensive experience playing with a number of bands, but these groups were assembled by others. In the case of the Hawks (later known as The Band), the group had performed for a number of years before ever meeting Dylan.

Dylan's idea of forming his own band, who would later be known as the Rolling Thunder Revue, came when he saw Patti Smith and her group play at The Other End (previously, and after, named The Bitter End) on June 26, 1975. Smith had yet to record an album, but she was already attracting a lot of attention from the music press and industry. According to Clinton Heylin, these were her first shows with drummer Jay Dee Daugherty, the culmination of four years spent "compiling a unique rock & roll sound". According to Smith, Dylan was immediately struck by the chemistry between Smith and her band, and expressed a wish that he had chosen to stay with a single band.

Dylan would spend many nights over the next two weeks in New York's Greenwich Village and The Other End in particular, eventually meeting Rob Stoner and reacquainting himself with Bob Neuwirth. Stoner would later join his Rolling Thunder Revue, and Dylan would meet the remaining members through Neuwirth. According to Smith, he was thinking about improvisation and extending himself "language-wise".

Recording sessions
Around the time of his first meetings with Smith and Stoner, Dylan began work on several new songs, finishing at least one song called "Abandoned Love". Then, sometime in late June, while traveling in a car around the Village, Dylan spotted Scarlet Rivera walking with her violin in the case. Dylan stopped to converse with Rivera and invited her to his rehearsal studio where she spent the afternoon playing along with several of the new songs. "If I had crossed the street seconds earlier," said Rivera in 2012, "it never would have happened." According to Rivera, "One More Cup of Coffee (Valley Below)", "Isis" and "Mozambique" were all rehearsed with Dylan on guitar and Rivera accompanying on violin. As the rehearsals progressed, Dylan attempted some of the same songs on piano, experimenting with different keys in the process. Soon after, Dylan would ask Rivera to join him for his next album.

As early as mid-July, the concept of the Rolling Thunder Revue was beginning to solidify. According to Don DeVito, a representative for Columbia Records, the possibility of forming a band and touring the United States playing unannounced concerts was already being discussed at this point.

Meanwhile, Dylan's songwriting partnership with Jacques Levy continued to grow. Jacques Levy was then best known for "Chestnut Mare", a collaboration with Roger McGuinn that ultimately became one of The Byrds' last hits. Dylan had met Levy the previous spring, but they became reacquainted at The Other End.

One night, Dylan met Levy at his loft and showed him an early draft of "Isis". According to Levy, "Isis" began life as a "slow dirge", unlike anything he had ever heard before, which he felt gave the appearance of setting the listener up "for a long story". When Dylan first played this embryonic version for him, the two of them started working together. According to Levy, it was an enjoyable song-writing partnership, with Levy writing words and Dylan contributing ideas. The session lasted until the early hours of the morning, after which Dylan and Levy traveled to The Other End. Dylan read the lyrics to the gathered crowd, to favorable reactions. The partnership went on to pen "Hurricane" and other tracks later featured on Desire.

Dylan finally held a recording session on July 14, recording two songs co-written with Levy: "Joey", an epic ballad about gangster Joey Gallo, and "Rita Mae", a short song about lesbian writer Rita Mae Brown. At this time, the Rolling Thunder Revue had not yet formed. The participating musicians instead consisted of the Dave Mason Band, Scarlet Rivera (the only future member of the Rolling Thunder Revue to participate in this session), and a number of other session players. Disappointed with the results, the session merely encouraged Dylan to form his own working band for his upcoming album.

Following the session, Dylan and Levy isolated themselves in the Hamptons to work on their songs. According to Levy, they finished off a total of fourteen songs over a three-week period. In total, an entire album's worth of songs was written in less than four weeks of collaboration with Levy.

Two weeks after the first, failed session, Dylan returned to Studio E on July 28 with approximately 21 musicians at his disposal. By most accounts, the recording process was very haphazard. Dylan was determined to record the songs live, while producer Don DeVito's inexperience led him to 'stack' instruments on the multitrack tapes, making it virtually impossible to properly remix any of the songs or to overdub any off-key accompaniments.

Neil Hubbard, who was present at the session, felt that there were too many musicians present and the session lacked leadership. Guitarist Eric Clapton was present, just one of five guitarists in the studio. Clapton recalled later that Dylan appeared to be seeking an opportunity to work with new people he had met, although Clapton felt that Dylan was uncomfortable performing personal songs with such a large group present, and left the session after advising Dylan to use a smaller band, a sentiment later reiterated by Rob Stoner to producer Don DeVito.

Others at this session included Rob Stoner, Scarlet Rivera, Emmylou Harris, and the English pub rock band Kokomo. Many of them would later, and at the time, recount their frustrations regarding the recording process for Desire which was, in the opinions of the many professional musicians present, a rather chaotic process.

The following day, Dylan returned to Studio E with roughly half the number of musicians, retaining Stoner, Rivera, Harris, Hugh McCracken, and Vinnie Bell as well as saxophonist Mel Collins and percussionist Jody Linscott of Kokomo. This time, they managed a usable take of the song "Oh, Sister", but the remainder of the session was deemed unacceptable.

On the night of July 30, 1975, Dylan returned to Studio E with a smaller group of musicians, including Stoner, Rivera, Harris, and drummer Howie Wyeth (a friend of Stoner's who was hired by Dylan on Stoner's suggestion). For the most part, this group of musicians formed the core of the Rolling Thunder Revue. The difference became apparent early on in the session, when a usable take of "Isis" was recorded on the first try. Both Dylan and Stoner were pleased with the session, and Stoner suggests that the more intimate sound was much closer to the sound of the completed album.

Five of the nine songs from Desire were recorded at that session, as well as a slow version of "Isis", the original master take of "Hurricane", the single-only release "Rita Mae", and a successful take of "Golden Loom" that was later released in 1991. Of the participating musicians, only Emmylou Harris was dissatisfied with the results. It would also be her last session, as she had prior commitments with her own career.

The following night, Dylan held another session, this time recording three songs. From this session, Dylan recorded the master take for "Isis" as well as master takes for "Abandoned Love" and "Sara". Dylan's wife Sara, the subject of the song that bore her name, also accompanied him to this session.

Outtakes
The Desire sessions yielded a number of outtakes, but only one of these outtakes received any serious consideration. Written from the point of view of someone "despairing, isolated, [and] lost", "Abandoned Love" debuted as an impromptu performance at the Other End on July 3, 1975. Clinton Heylin wrote that the song suggested Dylan's self-confidence as an artist had returned, but that he still faced problems in his marriage. Originally intended for the album, it was ultimately replaced by "Joey". "Abandoned Love" would not see official release until 1985 when a finished take was issued on the boxed-set retrospective, Biograph. Its first and only live performance at the Other End circulates as a highly prized recording among collectors.

Another song, "Rita May" (sometimes spelled as "Rita Mae"), was issued on a single-only release. It is an up tempo song, that some listeners believe to be a tribute to lesbian writer Rita Mae Brown. It was later covered by Jerry Lee Lewis on his self-titled album, issued in 1979.

Two other recordings were later released upon other albums. "Catfish", a tribute to future Baseball Hall of Fame pitcher Jim Hunter (better known as Catfish Hunter), and "Golden Loom" were officially released on The Bootleg Series Volumes 1-3 (Rare & Unreleased) 1961-1991 in 1991.

"Hurricane"
The album opens with "Hurricane", arguably the most popular song on Desire. It protests the conviction of former middleweight boxer Rubin "Hurricane" Carter for a triple murder in 1966, arguing for his innocence. In 1976, Carter won a second trial, but was again convicted of the triple murder. Carter was eventually released in 1985 after United States District Court Judge Haddon Lee Sarokin (who declined to hear Dylan's song when his family offered it to him) ruled that he had not received a fair trial and state prosecutors decided not to try Carter a third time.

Dylan had been inspired to write it after reading Carter's autobiography, The Sixteenth Round, which Carter had sent to Dylan because of his prior commitment to the civil rights struggle.

Prior to the album's release, this track was re-recorded due to some potentially libelous lyrics, which Dylan re-wrote. For this more uptempo album version, the harmony part was sung by Ronee Blakley, leaving the earlier track with Emmylou Harris unreleased.

During the fall tour preceding Desire's release, Dylan and the Rolling Thunder Revue played a benefit concert for Carter in New York City's Madison Square Garden. The following year, they played another benefit at Houston, Texas's Astrodome. Dylan met with Carter on December 5, 1975, and performed a concert in Clinton State Prison, in which Carter took to the stage, to address the press. Among those present were representatives of People Magazine who ran an article about Dylan and Carter on December 22 of the same year.

"Isis"
One of the most celebrated songs on Desire is the symbolic travelogue "Isis". According to music critic Tim Riley, "Isis" tells the story of a young groom who marries his bride before he learns the value of loyalty. Riley wrote that the story told of a man who learns about the love of a woman through the deception of another man and a "quest for riches that resigned itself to the quest for human contact". Also, the protagonist mistakenly believes that his quest is for treasure when an ulterior purpose is at play. When he approaches the tomb, he finds it empty and without any reward. Unbeknownst to him, he was playing a part in a higher story line: the tomb eagerly awaited for the arrival of his companion who dies immediately. When he chucks the body into the empty space, he realizes what a folly this whole adventure has been, and decides to return to the arms of his knowing wife.

"Mozambique"
"Mozambique" allegedly started as a game, to see how many rhymes for "-ique" Dylan and Levy could find.

"One More Cup of Coffee (Valley Below)"
"One More Cup of Coffee (Valley Below)" tells the tale of a girl whose family are drifters, and of the man who must leave her to enter the "valley below". The narrator describes a character who is beautiful: "your eyes are like two jewels in the sky" but for whom the narrator's love and admiration are not reciprocated ("but I don't sense affection no gratitude or love, your loyalty is not to me but to the stars above"). Dylan claimed to have composed the song while visiting the Roma festival in Saintes-Maries-de-la-Mer, a French town in the Rhone river delta, in 1975 on his 34th birthday.

The song is a duet between Dylan and Emmylou Harris; as an incidental to its use of the harmonic minor scale and Dylan's melismatic singing style, it has a Spanish gypsy flavor in the vocal melody. It was performed several times in live concerts in November 1978. The song was used in the 1998 Larry Clark film Another Day in Paradise. It was covered by The White Stripes on their 1999 debut album. Robert Plant covered the song in his 2002 album Dreamland. In 2003, the Sertab Erener cover of the song appeared on the soundtrack of the movie Masked and Anonymous. There is also a version by Roger McGuinn and Calexico for the 2007 film I'm Not There. 80's punk singer Nina Hagen released a version with German lyrics on her 2011 album Volksbeat. Tom Jones covered the song for his 2021 covers album Surrounded by Time.

"Oh, Sister"
"Oh, Sister" became a concert favorite during the fall tour preceding Desire's release. A poignant call for reunion, against the oblivion of time. Emmylou Harris' vocal on the final mix was actually overdubbed a day later, one of the few overdubs made during the Desire sessions.

"Joey"
The longest song of the album is "Joey". A twelve-verse ballad, it describes the life of deceased gangster Joey Gallo and created a substantial amount of controversy when Desire was released. Dylan presents Gallo as an outlaw with morals, in the tradition of songs like Woody Guthrie's "Pretty Boy Floyd". Dylan's Gallo refused to kill innocent people, made peace with black men, and shielded his family when he was about to be shot as they were eating in a restaurant. Many commentators, notably rock critic Lester Bangs, have argued, however, that Gallo was well known as a vicious Mafioso whose documented career was not accurately reflected in the song's lyrics.

The song details the killing of Gallo in Umberto's Clam House in Little Italy, Manhattan, on April 7, 1972. Graphic details of the murder had been published in Donald Goddard's book Joey: A Biography (Harper & Row, 1974), while Gallo's friends, actor Jerry Orbach and his wife Marta, were introduced to Dylan through Levy. Dylan said in 1975 that he had considered Gallo more a hero than a gangster. After hearing Jerry and Marta Orbach talk about Gallo, Dylan and Levy wrote the entire song in one night.

Unlike legendary outlaws like Robin Hood, or historical ones like Jesse James and Billy the Kid, Gallo was not a figure of the distant past nor was he mythologized by tall tales spread by word-of-mouth and the local press. With Gallo's life still prominent in the minds of the public and without favorable media coverage, Dylan's attempt to romanticize Gallo was greeted with an enormous amount of contempt by the press, public officials, and private citizens alike.

Goddard's biography depicted Gallo as a racist who often beat his wife and abused his children, and who had taken part in a brutal gang rape of a young boy while he was in prison. None of these details was mentioned or alluded to in Dylan's "Joey". Instead, the song paints a far more romantic portrait, incorporating a lyric that Gallo "It was true that in his later years he would not carry a gun/'I'm around too many children,' he'd say, 'they should never know of one.'"

Lester Bangs later wrote a scathing response to a question posed by Dylan in the song's chorus: "What made them want to come and blow you away?". In a Village Voice article published on March 7, 1976, Bangs argued that some could have considered there to have been an open contract on Gallo for his shooting of gangster Joe Colombo almost a year previously. Bangs also suggested that two other theories advanced by investigators extremely close to the case showed Gallo attempting to lay claim to territory occupied by other, more powerful mob factions. Despite all the controversy, Clinton Heylin noted that "Joey" remained the one song from Desire to have regularly featured in concert in the nineties.

In an interview with Bill Flanagan for his album Together Through Life in 2009, Dylan said that Jacques Levy wrote the lyrics to "Joey" and that he only sang them.

"Romance in Durango"
"Romance in Durango" concerns an outlaw and his lover, on the run in Mexico. Heylin described the song as "the climax to an unmade Sam Peckinpah movie in song", an allusion to the 1973 Peckinpah film Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid, for which Dylan wrote and performed the score and which was filmed in Durango.

This song has been covered in Italian by singer-songwriter Fabrizio De André as "Avventura a Durango" (using Neapolitan to stand in for the Spanish lyrics in the original song), in Portuguese by Raimundo Fagner as "Romance no Deserto", and in Polish by "Dylan.pl" project with Maria Sadowska, entitled "Romans w Durango".

"Black Diamond Bay"
As described by Heylin, "Black Diamond Bay" describes the destruction of a tiny island (following the eruption of a volcano), observed from two perspectives: from a hotel on the island itself and from the narrator's point of view through a television news report. The song essentially describes what the people on the island are doing at the time - often drawing attention to the ironic futility of their actions (for example, one of the islanders is preparing to commit suicide when the volcano erupts and destroys the island). The song also describes the news-watcher's indifference to the catastrophes he hears about on Walter Cronkite's TV newscast, as the narrator goes to get another beer rather than watch the news story about the catastrophe on the island. He says "I never did plan to go anyway to Black Diamond Bay." Joseph Conrad's novel Victory was a major influence on this song, which references many of its themes; the song title, the island, the volcano, the gambling and the Panama hat are all references to Victory. A drawing of Conrad appeared on the back of the album sleeve.

"Sara"
Desire closes with "Sara", arguably Dylan's most public display of his own personal life. An ambitious tribute to his wife, Sara, it is one of Dylan's only songs in which he steps out of his public persona and directly addresses a real person, with striking biographical accuracy. Tim Riley wrote that it was "a fevered cry of loss posing as sincere devotion".

Dylan's marriage was in a turbulent state when he wrote the song. Dylan's estrangement from his wife had led to at least one separation in the previous year. Sara was present at the song's recording session on July 31, 1975; on the same day he recorded two other songs that touched on the subject of marriage: "Isis" and "Abandoned Love". However, in March 1977, Sara Dylan filed for divorce.

In the lyrics of "Sara", Dylan states that he wrote "Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands" (from Blonde on Blonde) for Sara Dylan.

Aftermath
Desire would not be released until early the following year. In the meantime, Dylan embarked on the first leg of a North American tour with the Rolling Thunder Revue. During the course of the tour, which received heavy media coverage, Dylan and his band unveiled songs from Desire in addition to reinterpreting past works. The Rolling Thunder Revue was also augmented by guest musicians such as Mick Ronson (best known for his work with David Bowie) and other artists such as Roger McGuinn, Joni Mitchell, and Joan Baez who not only contributed during Dylan's set, but also played mini-sets of their own. Bruce Springsteen was invited to perform, but declined when Dylan informed him that he could not use the E Street Band to back him.

The fall of 1975 would ultimately produce a widely criticized film, Renaldo and Clara, but the concerts themselves were well received. Often regarded as one of Dylan's finest series of shows, this first leg of the tour was eventually documented on The Bootleg Series Vol. 5: Bob Dylan Live 1975, The Rolling Thunder Revue.

Critical reception
On January 5, 1976, Desire was released, garnering a fair share of critical acclaim. Critic Dave Marsh would call it one of the "two best records Dylan has made since John Wesley Harding" and gave it a four-star review in the 1979 Rolling Stone Record Guide. He also mentioned that this album has shown a change in style compared to his other works in 1970s by saying: "But love songs aren't the focus of Desire, which is one of the things that differentiates it from Dylan's other post-rock work. On the best songs, Dylan returns to the fantastic images, weird characters and absurdist landscapes of the Sixties." Some critics were not impressed; Robert Christgau wrote: "Although the candid propaganda and wily musicality of "Hurricane" delighted me for a long time, the deceitful bathos of its companion piece "Joey" tempts me to question the unsullied innocence of Rubin Carter himself". He disputed their categorization as protest songs and mused that Dylan's songs about oppressed "heroes" may have been a reflection of Dylan's own feelings at the time. Nevertheless, there was enough critical support to push Desire to number 26 on The Village Voice's Pazz & Jop Critics Poll for 1976. In 2003, the album was ranked number 174 on Rolling Stone's list of the 500 greatest albums of all time, maintaining the rating in a 2012 revised list.

The album also received a fair share of commercial success, eventually topping the U.S. Billboard charts.

Track listing
All tracks written by Bob Dylan and Jacques Levy, except as noted.

Personnel

 * Bob Dylan – vocals, rhythm guitar, harmonica, piano on "Isis"
 * Scarlet Rivera – violin
 * Emmylou Harris – background vocals
 * Rob Stoner – bass guitar, background vocals
 * Howard Wyeth – drums, piano
 * Mike Lawrence — trumpet on “Romance In Durango”
 * Dominic Cortese – accordion, mandolin on "Joey"
 * Vinnie Bell – bouzouki on "Joey"
 * Luther Rix – congas on "Hurricane"
 * Ronee Blakley – background vocals on "Hurricane"
 * Steven Soles – background vocals on "Hurricane"
 * Eric Clapton – guitar on "Romance In Durango"

Technical

 * John Berg – cover design
 * Ruth Bernal – cover photography
 * Don DeVito – production
 * Stan Kalina – mastering
 * Don Meehan – engineering
 * Ken Regan – cover art
 * Luther Rix – conductor
 * Lou Waxman – recording director

Resources

 * Lyrics and sound clips

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Desire (Bob Dylan album)


text:
SOTL

SOTL can refer to:

 * The Silence of the Lambs
 * Stars of the Lid
 * Scholarship of Teaching and Learning
 * Ship of the line
 * Spec Ops: The Line
 * School of the Legends
 * Sister of the Leaf

title: SOTL


text:
Rosny, Tasmania

Rosny is a suburb of the City of Clarence, part of the greater Hobart area, Tasmania, Australia. It is located on the eastern shore of the Derwent River, between the suburbs of Montagu Bay and Rosny Park, approximately 4 kilometres from Hobart's centre. Rosny is the residential part of its commercial namesake Rosny Park.

Rosny is a scenic, quiet residential area, with sweeping views of the Derwent River and its estuary, the Tasman Bridge and Mount Wellington, and looks directly across the river to the CBD of Hobart. It is located on a narrow peninsula which juts out from the eastern shore at Rosny Point and climbs the rising slopes of Rosny Hill.

History
Rosny was named for a family name of W.A. Bethune, the holder of the original grant on the point, and he named it after his ancestor, the Duc de Maximilien de Bethune Sully, of Rosny-sur-Seine near Mantes in France.

Rosny was the initial home of the 'Rosny Children's Choir', later changing the name to Australian Rosny Children's Choir. A local music teacher, Jennifer Filby, had her pupils sing carols at their end-of-year recital. She was asked to provide a chorus for a musical, and the Rosny Children's Choir was born in 1967.

The Choir was first from the southern hemisphere to perform at the renowned choral eisteddfod at Llangollen in Wales (1971), and in 1975 the first Australian choir to perform in China, as part of the Australian government's first cultural exchange. As well as a tour to Japan and interstate, and local performances, the Choir performed commissioned works and performed with the Tasmanian Symphony Orchestra.

Today
In 2016 Australian Bureau of Statistics Census, the suburb of Rosny had a population of 771 persons and 353 private dwellings.

Much of Rosny is given over to thick groves of local she-oaks, which line the foreshore, interspersed with radiating residential streets. The Rosny Point Reserve, owned by the Clarence City Council covers 7.8 hectares, but does not include the strip of land adjoining the river which is a Public Reserve under the Crown Land Act (6.7 hectares). Rosny Hill Nature Recreation Area (21.4 hectares), under the authority of the Parks and Wildlife Service but managed by the City of Clarence, occupies the hill top. Approximately 46 percent of the total land area of 76.6 hectares of Rosny is reserved land.

Rosny Hill Recreation Area itself is also covered in native vegetation and, although not particularly high at 94.25 metres at the Survey Control Site, its position jutting out into the river provides views from the lookout that skirts the top of the hill.

There are five vegetation communities within the Rosny Hill Nature Recreation Area: Grassy Eucalyptus viminalis woodland, Inland Acacia verticillata low fores, Lowland Themeda grassland, Lowland grassland complex and Bursaria-acacia woodland and scrub. There are several rare and threatened native plant species, including Leafy sun orchid (Thelymitra bracteata), Grassland flax lily (Dianella amoena), Spear grass (Austrostipa nodosa), Tall wallaby grass (Austrodanthonia induta), Shade peppercress (Ledidium pseudotasmanicum), and Narrow leaf New Holland daisy (Vittadinia muelleri).

Services
Housing Tasmania purchased in 2010 the Marantha Nursing Home, now called Bellview Manor, and it is used as Hostel Accommodation providing 32 bedrooms in a Hostel and 8 units.

Rosny's main non-residential infrastructure is the Rosny Waste Water Treatment plant located off Bastick Street owned by Taswater. The plant was once notoriously created foul odours, but modernised techniques have removed this problem. Work commenced in 2004 to install effluent pumps, 6.7 kilometres of raising mains, large storage tank and over 1.8 kilometres of reticulation mains between the plant and the Coal Valley to allow 2.5 billion litres of treated effluent to be used for agricultural use. The works were completed in October 2006.

Located on the boundary between Rosny and Rosny Park area, there is Clarence RSLA and Rosny Park Bowls Club, Rosny Park Tennis Club, Rosny College and the Charles Hand Memorial Park. There are also two churches on the boundary between the Rosny and Montagu Bay suburbs, St James Anglican Church and Seventh Day Adventist Church. The latter church is also used by local Funerals Directors. The Clarence Aquatic Centre YMCA and Clarence Sports Centre are close by in adjoining suburb of Montagu Bay. The local store, also in Montagu Bay suburb has closed down.

Transport
Rosny is serviced by local Metro Tasmania bus route 676 with this service terminating at the Elizabeth Street Bus Mall in Hobart. On weekdays, Route 676 leave Rosny Bus Mall at 7:25 am, 8:12 am, and hourly from 9:31 am until 2:31 pm. Route 676 departs Elizabeth Street Bus Mall in Hobart at 3:24 pm, 4:24 pm and 5:24 pm. There is no weekend or public holiday service. Many residents drive or walk to the bus stop under the Rose Bay High School overpass, near the Clarence Pool, where buses on Metro routes (601, 615, 616, 624, 625, 634, 635, 646) can be hailed. These route operate as a high frequency service, every 10 minutes Monday to Friday, 7 am to 7 pm. These routes are part of 'Turn Up and Go' network introduced 11 January 2016.

There are multi-use paths and cycleways along the shoreline of Rosny Point, linking the suburb with Rosny Park and the CBD of Hobart. There is also a formed track around the top of Rosny Hill.

title: Rosny, Tasmania


text:
Joe (singer)

Joseph Lewis Thomas (born July 5, 1973), known mononymously as Joe, is an American R&B singer. He signed to Polygram Records in 1992, and rose to prominence after releasing his debut album Everything the following year. He followed it with a series of successful albums under Jive Records, including All That I Am (1997), the international bestseller My Name Is Joe (2000) as well as the multi-certified albums Better Days (2001) and And Then... (2003). Several songs from these albums became hit singles on the pop and R&B record charts, including the number-one hit "Stutter", the top ten entries "All the Things (Your Man Won't Do)", "Don't Wanna Be a Player", and "I Wanna Know" as well as his collaborations "Faded Pictures", "Thank God I Found You" and "Still Not a Player".

Since his departure from Jive, Joe has released most of his projects independently through ventures with Kedar Massenburg and Plaid Takeover Entertainment. In 2016, his twelfth album My Name Is Joe Thomas became his eleventh album to score a top five-placing on Billboard's Top R&B/Hip-Hop Albums chart, while lead single "So I Can Have You Back" became his fourth number-one hit on the Adult R&B Songs chart over the span of three consecutive decades (1990s, 2000s, and 2010s). In 2010, Billboard listed Joe at 48th on its list of the Top 50 R&B and Hip Hop Artists of the past 25 years. An ASCAP Award recipient for his song "I Wanna Know", Joe is a seven-time Grammy Award nominee and has been nominated for numerous other awards and accolades, including a BET Award, a NAACP Image Award, and four Soul Train Music Awards.

Early life
Joe was born July 5, 1973, in Columbus, Georgia, and was the child of evangelist preachers. He moved to Opelika, Alabama during his formative years and graduated from Opelika High School in 1991.

1990s
After his graduation from Opelika High School, Joe continued to sing and write music while working at occasional temporary jobs. In New Jersey, while working at a gospel record store and continuing his music education through a local church, he met producer Vincent Herbert and recorded a three-song demo tape. In 1992, he signed to PolyGram Records and released his debut album Everything the next year. Produced by Joe along with Keith Mille, J. Dibbs, and Dave "Jam" Hall, it peaked at number 105 on the US Billboard 200 and number 16 on Billboard's Top R&B/Hip-Hop Albums. Everything spawned three singles, including I'm in Luv" and "The One for Me" the former of which became a top ten hit on the Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Songs chart and peaked at number 22 on the UK Singles Chart. The following year, Joe appeared in the group Black Men United, along with then-label mate Brian McKnight, Gerald Levert, Aaron Hall, Tevin Campbell and other male singers for the single "U Will Know" for the soundtrack to the romantic drama film, Jason's Lyric.

In 1996, Joe contributed the song "All the Things (Your Man Won't Do)" to the soundtrack to the crime comedy parody film Don't Be a Menace to South Central While Drinking Your Juice in the Hood (1996). Released as a single, it reached number 11 on the US Billboard Hot 100 and was later included as the opening track on his second studio album All That I Am (1997) after signing with Jive Records. Marking his commercial breakthrough, the album reached number 13 on the US Billboard 200 and number 4 on Billboard Top R&B/Hip-Hop Albums chart. Another hit single from the album "Don't Wanna Be a Player", was also featured on the Booty Call soundtrack. All That I Am eventually went platinum in the US.

A songwriter and producer, Joe became a frequent collaborator on other artist's projects in the mid-1990s. He remixed a duet by Barry White and Tina Turner called "In Your Wildest Dreams" as well as a remix of Turner's single "Something Beautiful Remains" from Turner's album Wildest Dreams (1996) and wrote and produced on albums by R&B groups Ideal, Xscape and Hi-Five. In addition, Joe sang on the remix of Big Punisher's "Still Not a Player", produced by Knobody, which interpolated his own song "Don't Wanna Be a Player" and appeared as a backing vocalist on Brandy's track "Angel in Disguise" from her second album, Never Say Never (1998). In 1999, singer Mariah Carey asked him to sing on her track "Thank God I Found You" which appeared on her album Rainbow (1999). Released as the album's second single, it became Joe's first number-one single on the US Billboard Hot 100 and was later certified Gold by the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA). Aside from its peak of number two in Canada, the song achieved moderate international charting, reaching the top ten in the United Kingdom and peaking within the top thirty in Australia, Belgium (Wallonia), France, Germany, the Netherlands, and Switzerland.

2000–2007: Rise to success
In April 2000, Joe released his third album, My Name Is Joe. Produced by Joe and several other record producers such as Kevin "She'kspere" Briggs, Teddy Riley and Tim & Bob, it received favorable reviews from critics and peaked at number two on the Billboard 200, while topping the Top R&B/Hip-Hop Albums chart. It charted internationally as well, peaking within the top 10 in Netherlands and Canada. My Name Is Joe produced three singles, including "I Wanna Know", "Treat Her Like a Lady", and "Stutter", the first and last of which reached the top five of the US Billboard Hot 100. The biggest seller of his discography, My Name Is Joe was certified triple-platinum by the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA), and earned platinum and silver certifications from Music Canada, Syndicat National de l'Édition Phonographique (SNEP), and the British Phonographic Industry (BPI). In 2001, the album and "I Wanna Know" received Grammy Award nominations in the Best R&B Album and Best Male R&B Vocal Performance categories.

The following year, Better Days, Joe's fourth album, was released. Significantly less successful, it reached number 32 on the Billboard 200 but peaked at number four on the Top R&B/Hip-Hop Albums chart, reaching gold status in the US. The album spawned two singles, "Let's Stay Home Tonight", which reached number 18 on the Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Songs chart, and the Adult R&B Songs chart-topper "What If a Woman". A critical success, Better Days became his second album to receive a Grammy nomination in the Best R&B Album category, while "Let's Stay Home Tonight" was nominated for Best Male R&B Vocal Performance. In 2002, Joe did another collaboration with Mariah Carey on the remix version of "Through the Rain", the first single from her album Charmbracelet (2002).

Joe recruited a diverse roster of high-profile musicians to work with him on his fifth studio album, including Carvin & Ivan, Dre & Vidal, R. Kelly, and The Underdogs. Released in late 2003, And Then... reached number 26 on the US Billboard 200. While Kelly-penned lead single "More & More" became a top 20 R&B in the US, it was released on double A-side with "Ride Wit U", a collaboration with rap group G-Unit, elsewhere. A moderate success, the single entered Australia's top 40 in July 2004, and peaked at number 12 on the UK Singles Chart, becoming one if his biggest hits there. A steady seller, And Then... was eventually certified gold by the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA).

Joe's sixth album Ain't Nothin' Like Me, released in April 2007, was produced by Stargate, Tank, Cool & Dre, Bryan-Michael Cox, and Sean Garrett and featured guest appearances by rappers Nas, Fabolous, Papoose, Young Buck and Tony Yayo. It received generally positive reviews from music critics and debuted at number two on the US Billboard 200 and on top of the Top R&B/Hip Hop Albums chart, selling about 98,000 copies in its first week, while marking his highest-charting album since My Name Is Joe. While lead single "Where You At" charted in the United Kingdom only, follow-up "If I Was Your Man" reached number three on Billboard's Adult R&B Songs. Ain't Nothin' Like Me marked Joe's final album with Jive Records following a fallout with label surrounding rumors of his dissatisfaction with the promotion of his material. Also in 2007, Joe performed a cover version of "Before He Cheats", a Carrie Underwood hit, as a Pepsi Smash exclusive on Yahoo! Music.

2008–present: Independent releases
Following his departure from Jive Records, Joe released his seventh album Joe Thomas, New Man independently on record label executive Kedar Massenburg's Kedar Entertainment company in September 2008. Production on the album was helmed by Bryan-Michael Cox, Stereotypes, and D'Mile among others. Upon release, it debuted at number eight on the US Billboard 200, selling 56,733 copies in its first week. Lead single "E.R. (Emergency Room)" became the only single to reach the top forty on Billboard's Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Songs chart. Only ten months later, Signature, his second album with Kedar, was released. An album composed of ballads written, produced, and arranged by Joe, it debuted at number seven on the Billboard 200 and number two on the Top R&B/Hip-Hop Albums chart. The same year, Joe released the holidays EP Make Sure You're Home for Christmas, which was released exclusively through Target and features two original songs and four cover versions of Christmas standards and carols. A top twenty success on the Top R&B/Hip-Hop Albums chart, the standalone EP was worked into a full-length album, entitled Home Is the Essence of Christmas, released the following year.

In 2010, Joe collaborated with label mate Keith Sweat on the song "Test Drive", written for Sweat's album Ridin' Solo. Also in 2010, he released his ninth studio The Good, the Bad, the Sexy. The singer worked with Brandon "B.A.M." Alexander, Gragston, The Ambassadorz, and Gerald Issac on most of the record which debuted at number eight on the Billboard 200 and number two on the Hot R&B/Hip Hop albums chart. Following a short hiatus, Joe's next effort, his tenth studio album Doubleback: Evolution of R&B, was released in July 2013, marking his first release on Massenburg's newly formed company Massenburg Media after the dissolution of his Kedar Entertainment. It debuted at number six on the Billboard 200 and number one on the R&B/Hip Hop chart, selling 31,500 copies in its first week. The singer worked with a small group of musicians on the album, including San Francisco-based producer D.O.A., who contributed "I'd Rather Have a Love" and the duet "Love & Sex", featuring singer Fantasia. Rapper Too Short also appears on the album.

In March 2014, Joe signed a distribution deal with BMG Rights Management. His eleventh album, Bridges, marked his first album under Plaid Takeover Entertainment, a venture of regular co-executive producer Gerald Isaac, after severing business ties with Massenburg. After a decade of consecutive top ten entries on the Billboard 200, it debuted and peaked at number 17, with first-week sales of 15,126 copies in the United States. The first single released from the album was "Love & Sex, Pt. 2", a duet with singer Kelly Rowland serving as sequel to his 2013 collaboration with Fantasia. It became a top five hit on the Adult R&B Songs chart. In November of 2015, Joe recorded and released a cover to the critically acclaimed song Hello by artist Adele, which received mostly positive reviews. Joe's twelfth album, My Name Is Joe Thomas, an homage to his third effort My Name Is Joe (2000), was released on November 11, 2016. The album debuted at number two on the Top R&B/Hip-Hop Albums chart, with 17,000 copies sold the first week, and spawned the single "So I Can Have You Back", his fourth number-one hit on the Adult R&B Songs chart. In support of the album, Joe co-headlined a European concert tour alongside Ashanti from February to March 2017.

Discography
Studio albums
 * Everything (1993)
 * All That I Am (1997)
 * My Name Is Joe (2000)
 * Better Days (2001)
 * And Then... (2003)
 * Ain't Nothin' Like Me (2007)
 * Joe Thomas, New Man (2008)
 * Signature (2009)
 * Home Is the Essence of Christmas (2010)
 * The Good, the Bad, the Sexy (2011)
 * Doubleback: Evolution of R&B (2013)
 * Bridges (2014)
 * My Name Is Joe Thomas (2016)

title: Joe (singer)