text:
Talk:Japanese sound symbolism

Merger
Snipped out of Japanese grammar because it was getting huge; merging into either Japanese grammar or Japanese language seems inadvisable at this time. It might also have independent interest, especially if extended with a summary from the excellent (Shibatani 1990).— Kaustuv 10:15, 2004 Aug 12 (UTC)

We should add some interesting examples, mainly non-auditory and particularly interesting, such as "shii(iii...)n"(silence).

Couldn't this article be generalised to Korean too? Maybe a renaming is in order.

The first sentence is nonsense, sound symbolism means that in every language. This needs to focus on how Japanese uses phenomimes and psychomimes more than most languages, or it should just be added to Sound symbolism. — Kapow 06:14, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * I also think this article should be deleted/merged with sound symbolism. Please go ahead. — Kaustuv 09:43, 2005 Jun 12 (UTC)

I think phenomime and pyschomime should be explained by example.

I totally agree that a merger would be a good idea, or in any case that general information needs to go to sound symbolism or maybe phonosemantics. Japanese is quite well known for its sound symbolism so I think it's OK to keep this article nonetheless. — mark ✎ 09:37, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Anyone know what musomuso means? Exploding Boy 02:40, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm a Japanese, but I don't know musomuso. It is not generally used. If it is mosomoso, that means something moves slowly, What situation the word was used ?--Mochi 19:06, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
 * "Imomushi ga mosomoso to ugoku" (A worm moves slowly).

"sound symbolic"? "mimetic words"?
Maybe these are terms used in the academic field of linguistics, I wouldn't know. They certainly don't sound like terms a layman would use though--I think informally they might be called "sound words" or something like that in English.

The formal English word I learned that refers to this class of words is onomatopœia. I'm somewhat in favor of replacing the terms "sound symbolic" or "mimetic words" with "onomatopœia" instead, in the introduction sentence (plus link to onomatopœia article of course). Comments? 24.19.184.243 23:49, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Never mind, this is because apparently the article covers more than Japanese onomatopœia.

In which case can we please remove "sound symbolic" in the intro sentence? In fact I think the title "Japanese sound symbolism" is itself very misleading, as the article apparently encompasses more than onomatopœia. This article should be renamed. Also, is there a Japanese word for this (ie. the whole class including the 3 subclasses of Phonomime, Phenomime and Psychomime)? If the word exists, that would seem to be the best title for this article. 24.19.184.243 00:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Shiiiiiiinn and optional suru
I think I disagree with the chart that says "suru not optional" on the shiiiiin thing.. you dont have to say suru, and you could use a different verb like nacchaaataa or whaaatever! Sorry if this is too odd of a message, but not sure how to put it. People someone check I'm telling the truth and then edit this nonesense. Thaaanks! Nesnad 17:00, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Doki Doki?
How come searching for doki doki forwards to this artlce, but this article says nothing about DOKI DOKI? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prons (talk • contribs) 06:38, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 04:10, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

where Linguistic mimesis should point
Linguistic mimesis used to redirect here. I changed it to point to ideophone, since after all this phenomenon figures in many languages other than Japanese. The only defensible reason I can see to have it point here is if by the vagaries of terminological evolution the word "mimesis" happens to be restricted to the Japanese phenomenon; and even then I'd rather keep my redirect and modify ideophone to make this clear... 4pq1injbok (talk) 04:05, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

オンボロロ オンボロボロロー
I have two questions:

 * 1) In the song Ishikari Banka (石狩挽歌) what is the sound On bo ro ro on bo ro bo ro ro o meant to represent?
 * 2) As far as I know giseigo and gitaigo apply only to expressions of four kanas of the type  kana01 kana02 kana03 kana04 e.g. kira kira, where kana01 = ki and kana02 = ra. Therefore the above can't be called either a giseigo nor a gitaigo. So what is this kind of thing called in Japanese?

Thanks.

Contact Basemetal   here  00:25, 22 July 2014 (UTC) Basemetal  15:37, 6 September 2016 (UTC)  Basemetal  18:24, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Article Evaluation
I think this article would be greatly aided by an overhaul of the example chart. It may be more beneficial to have examples broken up by category, with a column for giongo, gitaigo, giseigo, and gijougo.

One of the most interesting aspects of Japanese mimetics is how frequently they are used compared to other languages, especially in medium like advertisements and manga. The addition of this information may also benefit the article.-RekishiKyoushi (talk) 00:03, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Japanese sound symbolism


text:
Talk:List of Aragonese monarchs

Comment
The 29-31 July 2004 revision of List of Aragonese monarchs addressed existing inconsistencies in detail and presentation in the list.

This revision has however now been reverted to the previous inconsistent version.

For reference, the revision now exists at User:JohnArmagh/Monarchs of Aragon

--JohnArmagh 10:15, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * And are those inconsistencies?

Did you actually change anything except for the format? --apoivre 12:07, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC) ---

AFAIK, Louis XIII and Louis XIV were just counts of Barcelona, the kingdom of Aragon, as Valencia and Aran, stayed on Philip IV's side. So it is incorrect to say that they were "kings of Aragon". Cheers, --84.56.166.200 07:59, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
 * You may be right, I'll look it up when I have time. --apoivre 00:50, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Surely, I am not sure that giving new numerals to the Spanish Kings after Charles I is the best practice. If I remember right, the legal documents of the era, were they to give any numeral, they followed the Castilian fashion.
 * What do you mean? -- apoivre 11:18, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

The Kings of Spain and the Crown of Aragon
This asertion is false.
 * the Catalan-Aragonese confederation was occupied and annexed by Spain: after this time, there are no more Aragonese monarchs.
 * 1) The Catalan-Aragonese confederation never existed.
 * 2) The Kigdom of Aragon was part of the Spanish Crown since 1479. (Isabella I & Ferdinand V [as II in Aragon] ) were Kings of Castile, Leon, Aragon, Sicily, Toledo, Valencia, Galicia, Majorca, Sevilla, Sardinia, Cordova, Corsica, Murcia, Jaen, the Algarves, Algeciras, Gibraltar; Counts of Barcelona;... . You can check it at the referenced links
 * 3) There was a lot of Aragonese monarchs after 1714. You can also check it in the links. The year 1837 Isabella II was Queen of Castile, Leon, Aragon, both Sicilies, Jerusalem, Navarra, Granada, Toledo, Valencia, Galicia, Majorca, Minorca, Sevilla, Sardinia, Cordova, Corsica, Murcia, Jaen, the Algarves, Algeciras, Gibraltar, the Canary Islands, the Eastern & Western Indias, the Islands & Mainland of the Ocean sea; etc...
 * From Carlos I to Amadeo I, all the spanish monarchs had the name of Kings of the Spains (Hispaniorum Rex).
 * List of aragonese monarchs
 * List of castilian and spanish monarchs
 * Now, that's bollocks. The Crown of Aragon existed until 1707, when King Filipp abolished it and took away all of their liberties (never mind it took him 7 more years to conquer them to make good on his plans):apoivre 21:34, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

When Isabella I of Castile died, her daugther Joanna succeded her as Queen of Castile. Ferdinand II was King of the Aragonese Crown territories, and was only King of Castile as a consort of Isabella (while she was alive) or as a regent of Joanna (with the opposition of part of castilian nobilty). Castile and the Crown of Aragon were diferent entities until 1707-1714. Spain was a geographic name, and used to include Portugal. --Joan sense nick 22:57, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

The name Alfons
Almost all kings are written with their English names, it makes sense being the English wikipedia. Yet the Alfons have their names translated to Spanish? Why? Either put his name in English or in Catalan. It doesn't make sense, it doesn't even fit what's written in the article one of the counts of Barcelona, where they are called Alphonse. There's also a Wikipedia article on this name, and it's called Alphons. 83.45.26.37 (talk) 16:33, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Alphonse is French, not exactly English. The name appears in several variants in English. Alphonso, Earl of Chester, who would have been king of England had he not predeceased his father, was most likely the first Englishman to bear that name - and he is always called Alphonso. Now, whether it's spelled Alfonso or Alphonso, it does not really matter. Surtsicna (talk) 11:12, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

House of Barcelona should be House of Aragon
I'm going to change the name of the House. See Talk:House_of_Barcelona. --Enric Naval 17:11, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Counts
Shouldn't the counts have a different article? Since technically they're not monarchs/kings. - Gennarous (talk) 19:05, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

There has never been the House of Barcelona
The House of Barcelona has always been a condal, and never a royal category, since the House of Aragon always predominated by a marriage contract between Petronila I and Ramón Berenguer, transmitted between the queen and her son, Alfonso II. Therefore the House of Barcelona was integrated forever in the House of Aragon, disappearing from the succession line of the Kingdom and Crown of Aragon. Please correct yourself. Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.43.119.56 (talk) 17:08, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

Improper labeling
The column labeled "Name" has name and dates or reign so that is not consistent. There should be 2 columns.

ICE77 (talk) 08:01, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:List of Aragonese monarchs


text:
Centre Democrats (Denmark)

The Centre Democrats (Centrum-Demokraterne, CD) were a Danish political party.

History
The party was formed in 1973 by Erhard Jakobsen, a former MP and mayor of Gladsaxe, as a centrist splinter group from the Danish Social Democrats. It participated in both centre-right governments (1982–1988) and centre-left governments (1993–1996).

In the 2001 election, it lost its parliamentary representation, a severe setback for the party. In the 2005 election, it got 33,635 votes (1% of votes nationwide). It also ran in several municipalities in the Danish municipal election in November 2005. It also ran in simultaneous elections to the new Regional Councils, except in Region Midtjylland, where a local party official forgot to hand in the required number of voters' signatures before the deadline closed.

On 26 January 2008, an extraordinary party conference decided to dissolve the party by 1 February 2008.

Party leaders

 * 1973–1989: Erhard Jakobsen
 * 1989–2005: Mimi Jakobsen
 * 2005–2007: Bjarne Møgelhøj
 * 2007–2008: Ben Haddou

title: Centre Democrats (Denmark)


text:
Talk:Road verge

North America only?
Is this usage (and the rules re maintenance) Nth America only? Is this just the same as a nature strip? --GPoss 10:17, Aug 12, 2004 (UTC)

Correct definition?
I had never heard this term before. I think these may also be called curb plantings. In either case, they are not always public. The ones on my street are owned as a part of the properity on which the house sits.

This name and page might be considered for a move since the strips may contain mulch, and not grass or shrubs instead of grass. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vegaswikian (talk • contribs).

The Devils Strip

Term used primarily in Akron, Ohio. Use: local term for the "street lawn" or "tree lawn". This is the area between the sidewalk and the street. The city may plant trees, grass, or even dig it up or modify this area without consulting the owner. Hence they are the devil. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AkronA (talk • contribs).

The term "Tree lawn" is valid and should remain its own page. I too live in Northeast Ohio (near Akron) and do not find the term strange. --DangApricot 21:00, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe the term "tree lawn" is original to Cleveland, "The Forest City." Robert K S 03:35, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I grew up with the term 'tree lawn', and can vouch that in both Ohio and Michigan, the city owns the land rather than the owner. It's a relevant article in U.S. politics right now because of the many state elections coming in the November 2006 elections with eminent domain restrictions on the ballot. jp2 05:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I am from Akron, OH and the story has it that a property owner in neighboring Barberton was being sued by the city for not upkeeping this stretch of land between the street and sidewalk. After many arguments, the judge said "If the city isn't going to take care of it and the property owner isn't going to take care of it, then maybe the devil ought to do it." Thus the term Devil's Strip was born. I knew that all my life (I'm 31) and just heard "tree lawn" just a few years back.

Tree lawn is a strange term for me; I am from Alberta, Canada, where we call this the boulevard. However, "boulevard" better describes a broad avenue as per its article, so leaving this kind of boulevard here at tree lawn makes sense to me.--Jrsnbarn 14:40, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

The article at present seems very US-centric. In the UK I've never come across the term "tree lawn", the strip of land being referred to as a "grass verge" or simply "verge". Usually both the strip and the pavement (US: sidewalk) are owned and maintained by the local council (or sometimes the Highways Agency for major roads) but sometimes both or either are in private ownership. Thryduulf 12:34, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

If not Tree Lawn, what should the page be titled? Strip of Grass Between the Sidewalk and the Street? Whatever term is chosen is going to be something-centric because there is no "correct" term for it. It's all coloquial. I think it's fine as long as all known terms are included with their place of common use. 68.255.81.245 (talk) 03:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)Alex in Michigan

Im also from Akron and heard Devilstrip in contrast to other regular terms, i had no idea it was anything but a devilstrip til last year.--Threeblur0 (talk) 22:23, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Another Clevelander- yeah its pretty much just used there, and mostly only people from there use it. I've met people who lived in Northeast Ohio and they knew, but noone else did. -- Carol (no username) 01 Oct 2007

Tag
The reason for the tag is i am about to try to write an article about roadsides/roadverges in australia - and the predominately us centric nature of this article could be solved - either qualify the article as a US based articel - or try to see other continents and cultures inthe article - the main see also that i have put in should help either way - cheers SatuSuro 12:29, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Most common term?
I have lived in several regions of the US and have heard this called a "parkway" most commonly. I have never see the term "tree lawn" before. Perhaps it is the technical term used by city engineers to avoid confusion with the other uses of parkway. Google search will not be helpful here, because "parkway" will often refer to major devided highways. In some cities it is called the "boulevard' which is again used to refer to major city streets as well. A dictionary of regional English (or US English) is badly needed as a reference. Edison (talk) 20:01, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * i'm from cleveland and have always known it to be a treelawn. never gave the matter any thought until my professor showed us a book review that mentioned it. turns out it's pretty local to cleveland. if parkway is the more common term then use that (even though it doesn't make any sense. but i guess none of them do, so it doesn't really make a difference.) -  Lamba  jan  19:38, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

My wife (mid 60s) was born in Massachusetts and only recalls hearing the term "tree lawn" used and has never heard "tree belt." --Algotruneman (talk) 16:32, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

English usage
In England this would most commonly be called a (grass) verge. They're not too common, mostly in newer more 'planned' towns, and where houses are on major roads. 131.111.245.195 (talk) 14:20, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Extension?
I grew up in Michigan, and my family called this the "extension." I'm not able to find any references for this use, but if anyone else can find one then perhaps it could be added. Maybe it was just my weird family. I know that the Lansing (Michigan) Municipal Code refers to it as the parkway, though oddly enough I am not sure I've ever actually heard anyone say that. This may be because it just doesn't come up in conversation much. Bunnyhugger (talk) 20:42, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I've lived in the Detroit suburbs all my life and everyone I know here calls it a tree lawn. Not just an Ohio thing. 76.112.204.43 (talk) 04:51, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

 * I grew up in an area that didn't have sidewalks (a township), so it was a term that was never used. When it actually came up, I usually heard it described ("the strip between the sidewalk and road") or defined as the "easement".  Here in Kent, Ohio, which is near both Cleveland and Akron, the city's newsletter refers to it as the "tree lawn" in the most recent issue.  I have never heard the other terms (even Devil Strip despite being 14 miles from Akron), though like I said, having an actual "term" to refer to it as was pretty rare.  It doesn't sound like we're going to find much of a consensus on what to title the article, so we need to do what we can to make it less US-centric even if a US term is used as the title.  In the end, all the terms are describing the same thing.  --JonRidinger (talk) 05:43, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

New Zealand
We use verge in NZ or grass verge. Though generally speaking if you were going to talk about it casually, as in asking your partner if they had mowed it, then you would just say "did you do the bit out by the street" :). One thing that's not covered in this article, in NZ at least (and Aus come to think of it from having been there), the verge can be either between the road and the footpath or between the property and the footpath in front of the front fence (with the footpath and the road next to each other). Or in some more out lying or rural areas there is no footpath and there's only the verge between the property and the road. The article as it stands only presents the possibility of them being between the road and the footpath. Also they don't all have trees on them, even as presented in this article, so tree lawn is an odd name and would seemingly be an inacurate one in the majority of cases.Number36 (talk) 03:52, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, just saw the term 'Berm' used in this Facebook thread of a NZ based current affairs show here, obviously not usable as a reference of course, but suggests that the term is used in some places here as well as verge if someone can find an appropriate reference. Unless it's just the person who posted the update and others using it are following their lead.Number36 (talk) 00:23, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

tree lawn.. lol. Reminds me of Moe on the Simpsons calling a garage a "car hole" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.253.116.158 (talk) 04:08, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Proposed move
I am proposing a move to a more appropriate title, personally I suggest the term 'verge' which is the standard term in the UK and evidently also in Australia and seems to be the most widely used term. I am recommending this move because there has been long dissatisfaction with the current title on this talk page and more recently on talk:carriageway. The term 'tree lawn' seems to only used by people from the mid west of the USA. PeterEastern (talk) 18:07, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I would agree with this move, or perhaps better; 'Grass verge' or 'Road Verge' to differentiate it from other uses of the word. I'd also suggest a merge with the article Long acre (road verge), long acre is not a term I've heard before either.Number36 (talk) 21:40, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with both of your proposals. Road verge is probably better than grass verge given that a verge sometimes consists of bushes, trees or other planting rather than grass. I also agree about merging in Long acre, but suggest we leave that discussion until we have completed this move. Shall we leave this banner up for another 48 hours and then make the move as long as there are no objections which need more time to bottom out? PeterEastern (talk) 11:02, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * That seems reasonable to me and I'd agree with Road Verge being the better term for the reasons you raise. I also just noticed Verge itself is a disambiguation page with 'Road verge' red linked, and a link to this article in the note next to it, as this move will mean it'll no longer be a red link, the link via 'Tree Lawn' should be removed as unnecessary since it'll be a redirect to the same page. Number36 (talk) 21:00, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I have completed the move. I will now sort the double indirects to this article (of which there are only a few). PeterEastern (talk) 07:20, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't mind the move to Road verge, but American readers aren't going to know what a "verge" is in the photo captions. I plan to change the terminology cited in each to that used by the images' original posters. Also, according to Wiktionary (which is admittedly non-authoritative) and to Webster's New World Dictionary, "tree lawn" is the standard Americanism, and all other terms, also valid, point to the synonymy at "tree lawn". As an aside, much like "RP" is the "standard" for English pronunciation and usage in Britain, "flat, homogenized" Midwestern US speech in the standard in the USA. To this day, broadcasters with a "regional" accent still "unlearn" their native speech patterns in favor of "General American". --Chaswmsday (talk) 12:43, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the adjustments. Possibly it was a stupid idea to try a produce a single online encyclopedia covering British and North American terms in the first place ;) Another point... having done the move I wondered it if would be more accurate to have a title of 'verge (road)' instead of 'road verge' given that no one calls it a 'road verge' (be they in the USA or UK or elsewhere) as far as I am aware. PeterEastern (talk) 21:10, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I know you were just joking from the wink, but the terms really do refer to the same thing, and redirects could be created for the most common terms. Until recently (and coincidentally not related to these articles), I didn't even know the name for them and just used a circumlocution as mentioned here. The term that gets me is "boulevard". It sounds odd for that to be a synonym for "verge". I, however, confusingly use "boulevard" both to describe the street/road, and for the center island. If no one says "road verge", I think you're likely correct about moving/renaming the article again... :( --Chaswmsday (talk) 11:46, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

No common, universal term for this area
Wow. So many terms for this, and until reading this article, I was not really familiar with any of them, although I have long been aware of the concept. I've just called it "the right-of-way", "right-of-way" being shorthand for "the part of the front yard that the city owns." Of course, technically, the right-of-way does also include the street itself. In practical terms, the city plants and removes trees, but you still mow the grass, and the city will fine you if you don't. You're responsible for sidewalk maintenance, but the city will take care of it for you if you pay them. Wbm1058 (talk) 11:00, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Picture of Oak Park parkway
The caption says this is a picture of a "boulevard" in Oak Park, IL. This is ironic since Oak Park residents call that a "parkway." Should be changed to reflect the usage in the location depicted? Highnumber (talk) 19:51, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Road verge


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Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Archive 6

NPOVishness
I haven't read the archived talk pages, but it strikes me that the story of Jeremiah Duggan is a really notable omission. Duggan's death did quite a bit to expose LaRouche's organization to intense media and police scrutiny.
 * Yes: the police scrutiny found that the LaRouche organization had nothing to do with it. The media scrutiny followed the usual format (see ). --Weed Harper 15:42, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Also, reading through it, I believe that there are many cases of the text being just blatantly POV toward calling the LaRouche organization an anti-Semitic cult. Don't get me wrong: I find them to be a genuinely scary cult, and I have a friend who bears scars from Operation Mop-Up. But still, something like:

"During the 1970s LaRouche steered the NCLC away from the left and towards the extreme right, while retaining some of the slogans and attitudes of the left (as did the founder of fascism, the ex-Socialist Benito Mussolini, and many others since)."

is just blatantly POV. There is no reason to mention Mussolini here if our goal is to provide information on Lyndon LaRouche. LaRouche's writings should be treated on their own, zany, scary, level and not because they are similar to Mussolini's. DanKeshet 06:53, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Here's a great quote: "Who is pushing the world toward war is the forces behind the World Wildlife Fund, the Club of Rome, and the heritage of H.G. Wells and the evil Bertrand Russell."

"An Open Letter to President Brezhnev", Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr., Executive Intelligence Review, June 2, 1981 AndyL 21:18, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Virtually all of LaRouche pamphlets consist of quotes like that. Here, from the magazine I just took the picture of: "The era of thermonuclear terror launched in the postwar period had been promoted for decades by H.G. Wells, and Bertrand Russell, as the pathway to world Fabian dictatorship." (unsigned caption) in Children of Satan III: The Sexual Congress for Cultural Fascism, June 2004. The central thesis of the magazine is that the Congress for Cultural Freedom is working to conquer Europe and America for fascism by weakening it culturally, and that they are responsible for such things as 1960s counterculture, which has pushed the US toward "an existentialist, irrationalist dark age society, which was precisely the agenda of the Congress for Cultural Freedom". DanKeshet 01:42, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

In response to some of the above points:

I agree that the reference to Mussolini is probably a bit tendentious, but it does serve to show that LaRouche's transition from extreme left to extreme right is not unprecedented.

 * Or it would, if LaRouche had ever made such a transition. --Herschelkrustofsky 00:18, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * See Talk:Lyndon_LaRouche/The_Herschelkrustofsky_List for more of this. Martin 18:25, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It is true that a lot of LaRouche rhetoric is just gibberish, and it is a mistake to try to analyse it as though it was capable of logical explanation. I have been doing more LaRouche reading as a prelude to another assault on this article, and after a while it is hard to avoid the conclusion that he is simply mad.

This article does not need protecting. What it needs is for the anonymous LaRouchist who has been vandalising it to be barred from editing it. There is no way this "dispute" can be "resolved," because LaRouchists are not amenable to rational discussion. I have more work I want to do on this article so I would like to see it unprotected as soon as possible. Adam 15:24, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

My attempt to bar the anon user was countermanded. I guess we need to ask the ArbCom to do something. AndyL 17:26, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

For those of you just joining us
This article has a long history, as you can see from the five volumes of Talk archives. It was edited and re-edited by various parties until June of 2004, when it was seized by a gang I'll call the Empire Faction, because the ringleaders are AndyL, a Canadian who writes a lot of admiring articles about British Commonwealth/Imperial functionaries, and Adam Carr, an Australian who writes a lot of similar articles, but more importantly is on the staff of Australia's most outspokenly fascist Member of Parliament, Michael Danby. Adam deleted the Lyndon LaRouche article altogether, and replaced it with a laughable smear job (the presently protected article is a slightly toned down version of same.) Any attempts to edit the smear job were met with revert wars, leading to protection of the article, at which point I asked for arbitration (see evidence). The arbitration accomplished nothing, finding very anticlimactically that the contending factions ought to be more polite to one another. Arbitrator Fred Bauder put it this way: "We don't try to arbitrate the content of articles, for example by doing a lot of research regarding Lyndon LaRouche and trying to figure out what's true and what's not, or even whether this source or that source said what about him." (see Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Lyndon_LaRouche)

Meanwhile, the page was unprotected. I made two efforts to edit it, and gave up, because the Empire Faction would immediately resume the edit war, and I was hoping that arbitration would do something other than what it ultimately did. The page, with minor modifications, remained a huge manure pile of propaganda, reeking with POV. On August 5, an anonymous user writing from the Philippines (203.215.75.149) attempted to edit out some of the offal, at which point another edit war was launched, leading to another protection.

I have become somewhat fatalistic about the process; I have contributed a list of the most glaring lies, which I will reproduce below. I also refer the reader to Significant Ommissions from the Current Version. --Herschelkrustofsky 21:20, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well Adam, we've been found out as British Imperialists. Perhaps we should tell Herschel about our secret membership in the Privy Council and our clandestine meeting at the Queen Mother's funeral. The Queen (or ma'am as I call her) has promised me a peerage if I fulfill my mission to root out any hint of LaRouchianism in Wikipedia. What has she promised you?AndyL 01:15, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I call her "Liz" or "Toots" so obviously I have seniority over you in the Imperial Cabal. More seriously, I am getting copies of some of the LaRouche documents we have been debating, from that well-known Zionist front the New York Public Library. This will enable me to verify (or otherwise) some of the citations from King. When I have them I will start work on the article again. Adam 08:41, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Updated list of wild fabrications and propagandistic slurs in the present version
-> Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/The Herschelkrustofsky List

Each one of these inventions or propagandistic insinuations constitutes a violation of Wikipedia policy; (see What_Wikipedia_is_not). --Herschelkrustofsky 21:20, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * I'm reworking this, because each time you repost the same accusations, shorn of the fact that they've already been discussed, which has the effect of rewinding the discussion to the start again. This does not progress things. Martin 17:24, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * John Kenney acknowledged some points on the original list, but nothing changed on the article. As I have noted, I don't attempt to edit the article, because Adam 'n' Andy immediately go for revert war. Andy, to his credit, did remove three or so of the cited items, and I promptly re-worked the list. Andy's edits were the only significant changes before the recent protection. So, the list will change as the article changes. I'm not sure precisely what your objection is, but I don't mind you structuring the talk pages. --Herschelkrustofsky 00:30, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * I've moved some of them to Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Jewish issues to respect the 32KB limit. Just as a suggestion, try picking just one of your issues, the one you think is most important, and try to get that resolved. Then, go on to the next one. Your list will always be linked at the top, so the reader will easily be able to find out a complete list of your criticisms, but it's impractical to solve them all simultaneously. Martin 21:40, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * My "one" issue is that the entire article is a malicious, propagandistic misrepresentation of its topic, in violation of Wikipedia principles. The points on the list are just evidence to support that thesis. The arbitration committee has made it clear that they have no intention of arbitrating the truth or falsehood of articles, and Adam 'n' Andy seem to have an uncanny knack for getting their version of the article protected, so I am limited to raising my objections on the talk page. --Herschelkrustofsky 00:30, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * I see, Martin, that you have put quite a bit of work into this, and I think that it was done fairly and honestly. There are a few problems; I reworded two subject headers that I think missed the point of what was being contested. Also, you use the original list, when some of the points of contention have been re-worded without making them less false or misleading; my more recent lists reflect the new formulations. But I know you want to keep the earlier discussion in context. You undertook a complicated task, and I think that you did a pretty good job. --Herschelkrustofsky 01:14, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * Thank you: I try my best. I maintain my suggestion that you focus on one objection at a time. Martin 00:36, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Herschelkrustofsky is not trying to get his "issues" "resolved". He is just regurgitating LaRouche propganda over and over again because that is what he is programmed to do. Adam 23:59, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

A More Honest Assessment
I think that this assessment of LaRouche is far more honest than Dennis King's:

"U.S. economist Lyndon LaRouche ... was among the first personalities to propose a debt moratorium for the developing countries in the middle of the seventies, in polemics against the International Monetary Fund and other supranational institutions, promoters of a neocolonialist system based on usury. LaRouche, one of the most controversial personalities on the international scene, since 1994 has underlined that the present financial system is practically bankrupted and that it must be replaced by a system based on a radically new concept. His economic forecasts, particularly of the financial crashes of 1987 and of 1998, have proven to an ever-larger public his qualities as an economist. LaRouche sees American history as the primary battleground of a clash between those who intend to continue the anticolonial tradition, particularly by Franklin Delano Roosevelt and John F. Kennedy, responsible for the creation of nation-states -- whose roots have to be found in European and Renaissance history -- and those forces behind the Pax Americana which de facto corresponds to the supranational oligarchical interests, historically centered in England."

--from ''La guerra del petrolio. Strategie, potere, nuovo ordine,'' by Italian oil expert and historian Benito Li Vigni, Rome, 2004.

--Weed Harper 15:59, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * Who made this translation from the Italian? Do you have a source for the publication of this translation? Can you find an assesment of LaRouche's stengths as an economist written by an actual economist? Martin 20:40, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

What a waste of time
This whole effort--the article, the edits, the rewrites, the endless arguments and recriminations--are a colossal waste of time and one that will not benefit the users of Wikipedia at all. LaRouche doesn't deserve this much hand-wringing and source-checking and verifying and evidence. He certainly doesn't deserve a Wiki article that gives detailed treatment to his personal biography and ideas. LaRouche is not a politician; he is not a scientist; he is not a scholar; he is not a philosopher. He is nothing but a crank who repeatedly runs for president and who has apparently managed to fool a few foreign dignitaries, institutions, and newspapers who didn't know any better to give him the time of day. A Wiki article on LaRouche need include little more that this, and perhaps also that so far as American society is concerned, LaRouche signifies nothing except a guy whose followers accost them at train stations with incomprehensible political tracts. Period.

Ah yes, but there's also a detailed article for Alois Hitler, the father of Adolf Hitler. Marcus2 19:39, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I agree that this article now gives LaRouche far more prominence than he deserves, and that we are all spending far too much time on him. Unfortunately, because Wikipedia has no quality control mechanisms, it is necessary to respond over and over again to the same handful of LaRouchite propagandists who insist on contaminating Wikipedia with their lies and slanders. Personally I would much rather be writing articles about Buddhist temples. Adam 01:29, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

And I would much rather be writing laudatory articles on British imperial functionaries and European Communist revolutionaries. Oh, I lead such a conflicted inner life ;). AndyL 03:38, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps Herschelkrustofsky is Lyndon LaRouche himself. Krusty identifies himself as "an old guy, with some knowledge of history, politics and art" on his user page, and LaRouche is in his early-eighties and has some knowledge of history, politics and art. Given that this article is #7 on a google search for Lyndon LaRouche, perhaps the old guy wanted to write an article likely somewhat influential in shaping his public image. 172 07:31, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It had occurred to me that Herschelkrustofsky might actually be Lyndon LaRouche, although he did say at one point that he lived in California, but since I am barred from making personal attacks on Herschelkrustofsky, I would never dream of slandering him so grossly. Adam 07:50, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Herschelkrustofsky's slanders
I have placed the following request with User:Fred Bauder:

Lyndon LaRouche: Further to this matter, since I have been censured and penalised for personal attacks, I think it is now appropriate that I ask you to make an additional ruling that User:Herschelkrustofsky be required to refrain from calling named individuals "fascists," particularly those who are not Wikipedians and not present to defend themselves, unless there is evidence that they belong to a fascist organisation or have espoused views generally accepted as fascist. I refer to his repeated description of an Australian Member of Parliament, Michael Danby, as (to quote just the most recent example) "Australia's most outspokenly fascist Member of Parliament, Michael Danby." This is untrue and grossly offensive, and may also expose Wikipedia to action for defamation. I think fairness dictates that if I am to be censured for calling Herschelkrustofsky a slanderer, he should be required to cease being one. Adam 00:21, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Adam, your characterizations of LaRouche are untrue and grossly offensive, and yet you insist that you have every right in the world to put them in a Wikipedia article, and then get it protected. I have limited my comments about your boss to these talk pages, and I have provided ample evidence for my assertions. I must say, that you have more than your share of nerve to complain about it. --Herschelkrustofsky 00:36, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I have not described LaRouche as a fascist or an anti-Semite in the article, only reported that other people have described him as such, which is a fact. LaRouche and you both know that people who bang on about Zionist conspiracies are liable to be called fascists and anti-Semites, because that is the standard rhetoric of fascists and anti-Semites. For the record, I don't think he is a fascist. I do think he is an anti-Semite, or at least was one in the 1970s and 80s: as noted in the article, he seems to have moderated his views in recent years. Danby, on the other hand, is a mainstream social democrat, has never done or said anything which could be reasonably described as fascist, and has never to my knowledge been called a fascist by anyone except you. Your "evidence" for this charge is specious crap as I'm sure even you know perfectly well. This is a deliberate and baseless slander by you, and I think you should be required to desist from it. Adam 01:37, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

To base an entire Wikipedia article on defamation-for-hire produced by Dennis King, amounts to using King as a sock puppet.

 * This tired old whinge has been investigated and rejected by the Arbitration Committee whose judgement you yourself asked for. Adam 07:03, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

And because I am an obliging sort, I will provide further documentation that Danby is a fascist, but I will do it at Talk:Michael Danby, where it may be more appropriate. --Herschelkrustofsky 03:00, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I have created a new article, Australian anti-terrorism legislation, 2004, to provide some background for some of this discussion. Adam 07:03, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Read this quick, it'll probably get deleted: Lyndon LaRouche/parody

Oh, grow the fuck up already!

title: Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Archive 6


text:
Talk:Efraín Ríos Montt/Archive 2

The article clearly presents the reasoning of Montt's backers. It states unequivocally, "his supporters regard the former military ruler as a strong leader capable of restoring order to this turbulent nation." The article also makes it clear that his regime was fighting Marxist guerrilla groups that drew their ranks from the peasantry: "The civil war pitted Marxist rebel groups against the army." The article is also linked to articles related to the Cold War and Communism; so we do not need to rehash old Cold War-era bluster here. 172 03:00, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Sure, one sentence on his supporters. Maybe you haven't noticed that nearly the ENTIRE article surrounding that sentence (several paragraphs worth of disputed accusations, etc.) are drawn directly from anti-Montt sources. No objective observer of this article could claim that it's in any way balanced. And you are correct.  This isn't the place to rehash old Cold War bluster. That would, of course,  also include any material that can be construed as partisan leftist attacks on anti-communists as well as my right-slanting material.

This article is totally biased and it doesn't meet Wikipedia's standards of NPOV. These sentences are simply unjustifiable:
 * Human rights groups say Ríos Montt, a staunch anti-communist who has had ties to the United States for over five decades (the Pentagon's School of the Americas, the CIA, presidential administrations, and the religious right)...
 * Regarded by many as a genocidal neo-fascist...
 * (please add more examples of POV in this article)

ANTI-COMMUNIST

Suggestion
I believe both 172 and Anti-Communist are honestly trying to make this article better and less biased. Let's see if we can come up with a version that we can all find acceptable.

(Anti-Commie, thanks for apologizing. Keep in mind that I'm not a pro-Commie Montt-hater, and I doubt 172 is either. 172, please don't bite the newbies, even if you think their edits are bad.)

1. The fact that Montt graduated from SOA ought to be in there. There also needs to be maybe a sentence describing what it is in a NPOV way. How about this?
 * In 1950 Ríos Montt graduated as a cadet at the School of the Americas in Panama. This notorious U.S.-funded academy is widely suspected of educating loyal cadets in coup-plotting, political repression, torture, assassination, and strong anticommunist propaganda.

It is notorious, and it is widely suspected of these things. Can we agree on this version?

 * "Notorious" is a loaded word with an entirely negative connotation. Remove that from your paragraph and the rest is entirely acceptable. It seems to be a decent compromise overall, listing the many accusations against the School of the Americas without presenting them as indisputable fact, like the original form of the paragraph did.

ANTI-COMMUNIST

2. Is there serious doubt that the coup was "quietly backed by the CIA and the Reagan administration"? I'd just as soon leave the line in as is, but if there are some who doubt it, their views ought to be shown. I suppose "allegedly" could be put back in instead of "quietly" if there's any source that doubts the CIA's involvement.

 * Allegedly is better than quietly, but still, the CIA's involvement (or lack thereof) in the coup is highly disputed by the majority of conservative American studies on Latin America (and denied by the President himself). It is highly NPOV to present that veiled attack on the Reagan administration as a fact.

ANTI-COMMUNIST.

3. It's important to include the views of Montt supporters, and I think anti-Commie's is a good start. But they need to be tidied up and NPOVed. How's this:
 * Montt has been widely condemned for the murders of many peasants and innocents. Montt's defenders say that Montt was justified in his attacks on leftist groups in Guatemala, because of the damage a communist takeover would have done to the country. Throughout Montt's reign, Guatemala's infrastructure was frequently attacked by communist guerrillas. Montt's supporters claim that his repressive tactics were necessary, given these hostile circmstances.

 * Now THAT is a good rewrite. We should put it in.

ANTI-COMMUNIST

Can we at least agree this is a good starting place, talk about it here, and call off the edit war? Then it can hopefully be unprotected soon. Quadell (talk) 03:10, Jul 24, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestions. It's better form though, to avoid weasel terms like "allegedly" and "widely suspected" here, as they are unnecessary (although I have seen them used a few times to appease the flat earth theorists out there). Regarding the third point, trimming it down to the following would suffice: "Montt's supporters claim that his repressive tactics were necessary to restore order to the turbulent country and defeat Marxist guerrilla groups." 172 03:37, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

No, 172, the FULL rewrite is a far better idea. It's not too lengthy at all, not when there are already at least TWO paragraphs longer than this one on Montt's massacres of supposedly innocent Mayans. It's more balanced to go with the full text of the rewrite.
 * What do you mean by "supposedly innocent Mayans?" Peasants and guerrillas aren't mutually exclusive, you know. We don't need to be assigning "guilt" or "innocence" here. Instead, the article makes it clear that the Mayan peasant population was the core base of support from which the guerrilla groups drew their ranks-- one can think what he/she will about this. This was a nasty civil war; and the article already describes this dispassionately it in a succinct and factual way (barring one or two words like notorious, which can be removed once the article is unprotected). 172 07:00, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I think we're making a little progress here, I really do, but you would be best served to remember that words like "allegedly" and "highly suspected" are not "weasel words", as you so derisevly termed them. Rather, they are your best friends in a FACT-BASED Encyclopedia, as they keep articles like this from appearing to slant too far to one side (in your case, left; in my case right). Using words like "alleged" when it comes to Highly disputed allegations like those leveled against the SOTA keeps the claims from being presented as fact (when many decent politicians, military personnel, and intelligence officers continue to deny such claims against the School).

It isn't wrong to state in an Encyclopedia article the ALLEGATIONS that have been widely alleged against the SOTA. It is a pure, blatat bias to list them as Facts.

ANTI-COMMUNIST

 * Unless I'm wrong, it seems that the main argument here seems to be about the School of the Americas, not about Rios Montt. Could we not agree about the re-written language concerning Rios Montt himself and move the School of the Americas argument to its own entry? Could the POV about the School of the Americas not be removed altogether without any impact on the information about Rios Montt himself?

 * How about just saying Rios Montt graduated from the school and leave it at that? That is fact; everything else is liable to prolong a POV dispute. Any necessary information about the school could be equally gleaned from reading the main entry on the school itself (although the neutrality of that article is in dispute as well).

 * I also don't think that "allegedly" and "widely suspected" as used in this instance are necessarily weasel words. ffirehorse 19:39, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Well, they're weasel words in the sense that it would be better form to list who alleges, or who suspects. But either way is better than stating things as facts, if they are disputed. Also, I thought of just mentioning the school in passing, but I think it would be better to give at least a sentence describing what it is. Otherwise, it just looks like he graduated from a normal college or something. (Even if the SOA doesn't train people in assassination and torture, it's still not a normal school.) I'm delighted that we're all inching toward consensus here, BTW. Quadell (talk) 00:39, Jul 25, 2004 (UTC)

 * Can there just be a word like controversial (maybe better) in the sentence, so that someone who doesn't know about the school will say "hmm" and click on the link? If not then I agree that the current tone of the sentence needs to be milder, at least. Trey Stone 06:51, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * We can get rid of adjectives like "notorious." As for the rest, it is straightforward and factual. 172 06:56, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Wait. I thought we came to a fair compromise here, adopting some useful ideas like listing Reagans supposed involvement in the coup as being disputed, or making sure that unproven allegations of wrongdoing by the School of the Americas are not listed as absolute fact. So what hack took it upon themselves to revert the article to its previous state of bias.  Somebody (obviously none of us) inserted the same old loaded phrases and absolute leftist bias into the article on these two important subjects; Not the balanced versions we decided on (or any balanced version, for that matter)

I have simply deleted the slanted statements in their entirety (example: everythin after "and at the Shool of the Americas..."). If any of you would like to make the next move and instate the less partisan versions of this text, then I will leave it to you.

Drop me a message here if you would rather I insert the compromised paragraps myself (Im pressed for time now and my keyboard is on the fritz, but even so...)

ANTI-COMMUNIST

frijoles y fusiles
Can this concept be explained? Also this "scorched earth" needs alot more explanation. Sam [Spade] 04:27, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * I will exapand the section on frijoles y fusiles once the distraction posed by the anon vandal is out of the way. 172 06:48, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

209, why do you remove the entire statement that he graduated at the School of the Americas in 1950? Is that not correct? And 172, why not leave the description of the School out - this will always be disputed by some people. Gzornenplatz 06:36, Jul 26, 2004 (UTC)
 * We cannot appease flat earth theorists on this one. The content the anon is removing essential to the biographical entry. 172 06:45, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I tried that, and 172 rejected my compromise as he did yours. i have requested the page be protected. Sam [Spade] 06:39, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Done. Ambivalenthysteria 06:45, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

To:172

Drop The Unproven, Tin-foil, Left-wing Propoganda on the SOTA and Reagan administration, and we are fine.

---Anti-Communist.
 * To anonymous vandal, open up a real history book for once. 172 07:02, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

To political hack 172, stop getting your "history" from Chomsky.
 * I am a trained, professional historian. I did not learn my history from Chomsky. You could afford to stop getting your "history" from FOX News. 172 07:15, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Well, I've just got one thing to say about Montt:

Just and historical necessity, man. "Just and historical necessity." Trey Stone 12:19, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

---Anti-Communist

Please! You are so easy. Fox News attacks again?

Well, I guess all that CNN (Communist-News-Network) has really gone to your head.

Anyway, its 2:30AM where I live and Thats it for me.

Fight you Tomorrow, Mr. Socialist.

-Anti-Communist

Please cut out the personal attacks, you two. Ambivalenthysteria 07:12, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Points of contention
There's way too much pride and stubbornness going on here. We're here to make the article better, not offend people. The fantasies about where the other party gets his historical information is particularly bad form.

Okay, what are the points of contention? (I know, 172 and ANTI-COMMIE, you two probably don't like each other; but what are the points of contention in the article itself?)

I can see:
 * Do we out-and-out say that SOA did certain things, or do we say it is controversial and is widely suspected to have done these things? NPOV policy is clear, isn't it? We can't say it's fact if it's contested.
 * Should we say the CIA quietly backed the coup, or allegedly backed it. Again, the NPOV policy answers the question. We can't state that the CIA backed it, even if its true, so long as it's contested.
 * Should we include the legacy sentences?
 * Montt has been widely condemned for the murders of many peasants and innocents. Montt's defenders say that Montt was justified in his attacks on leftist groups in Guatemala because of the damage a communist takeover would have done to the country. Throughout Montt's reign, Guatemala's infrastructure was frequently attacked by communist guerrillas. Montt's supporters claim that his repressive tactics were necessary, given these hostile circmstances.

This is good info, and I frankly can't see why 172 reverted it. (It's obviously not vandalism. Reverting is a relatively extreme act, and I don't see that it was warranted here, especially after we discussed in on talk first.) Replacing it with a single sentence isn't fair to Montt's supporters. 172, you're obviously not a Montt supporter, and ANTI-COMMIE is. So why not let a Montt supporter write a paragraph on what Montt supporters think?

Quadell (talk) 14:15, Jul 26, 2004 (UTC)

I would agree with all of the above. The personal attacks and ideological diatribes are not going to improve the article, which would seem to be the point of having an article in the first place; they're just going to keep the article in limbo. ffirehorse 15:24, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * The important difference I see is that "Montt supporters" clarifies who is saying what, whereas some of the edits I had to revert stated as general fact things which should have been atributed as opinions of certain individuals. I know its fun to create our own reality, but thats what blogs are for, not the wiki. Sam [Spade] 18:00, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I've done a quick google search, and the best I can come up with (unfortunately I could only find anti-SOA opinion articles) was that the Pentagon in 1996 (?) released evidence that manuals used at the SOA from 1982-91 advocated/could be interpreted to advocate shady stuff like torture and kidnappings. Montt graduated from the school in 1950. If someone could give me a link that proves use of material like this throughout the school's entire existence, that'd be great. I just have to mention, though, that while it's probably more than a coincidence that a lot of grads from that school went on to do some pretty awful things, we can't include that sentence as a fact in the article unless (like I said) someone can link to evidence that shows the school/staff _itself_ advocated these practices. Trey Stone 22:25, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * If such evidence even exists (or if evidence to the contrary exists), it would likely only be found by digging through primary documents in historical archives. ffirehorse 23:46, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

A Decent Compromise.
As I have stated all along on this discussion board, I am very willing to make a decent compromise on the matter.

I would have no objection to the reimplementation of the material on the SOTA and the Reagan administrations (supposed) involvement in Montt's coup IF, and only if, said material was not presented as indisputable fact. I don't think I should have to tell you again, but the largely left-wing theories presented in both paragraphs are widespread but also widely contended.

I am writing to support the ideas of the wiki user who suggested that the paragraph on the SOTA should be amended to say something like "widely suspected of..." or "believed by many to..." prior to the presentation of the disputed accusations against the SOTA.

On the Reagan admin. paragraph: If the words "quietly backed" (which is a definitive statement of one's opinion, in this case 172's, as fact) were replaced with a more open and unbiased statement like "allegedly backed", then I could have no objection with the rest of the paragraph.

The info on the SOTA and the Reagan bashing are the only two sizable sticking points in the article for me. The suggested rewrites are not exactly as I would design them myself, but these amendments to the article are a good step towards ending the "Edit War" that has developed. None of us will get out of this with 100% after all.

[Call this a personal rant if you must, but I believe that A big problem here is that 172 refuses to help work out a compromise with me. He holds an apparent inability to accept any idea on this forum which does not conform with his own personal prejudices. No, he has personally told me that he will not accept any "weasel words" used to balance his controversial viewpoints on the SOTA, etc. He believes them personally, therefore they are ABSOLUTE fact. That's not how it works in an Encyclopedia, though.]

Although less important to me, I would also like to see a fairly worded paragraph stating the reason of Montt's still-reasonably-large base of  support, to balance the overall anti-Montt tone of the article. Even Montt's staunchest critics on this forum must admit that there are reasons to his popularity amongst his supporters (perception that he fought against the Communist threat, etc.), and that these should be listed ALONGSIDE the often valid attacks of his opponents. After all, an article cannot be balanced if it presents only one side.

Any good ideas for this proposed paragraph ?

ANTI-COMMUNIST

 * How about:

 * Rios Montt's appeal is explained by some observers as a consequence of his espoused populism, along with his hardline approach to regional lawlessness and crime. Others cite his strong roots in the born-again movement. Still others cite Rios Montt as a prime example of a Latin American caudillo, who, despite allegations against him of human rights abuses and genocide, retains fervent support among segments of his country's population. Indeed, according to a 1999 report from the American Association for the Advancement of Science and the International Center for Human Rights Research, "Today many Guatemalans consider the former general a savior who brought the open conflict with the guerrillas to a close."

 * This is just a suggestion. ffirehorse 02:51, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

If we use the amended versions of the SOTA and Reagan "support for coup" paragraphs, AND use your paragraph on Montt's supporters, then I wouldn't object to having the page opened again immediately.
 * I like it Ffirehorse. I like it indeed. You have my support for that well-balanced paragraph on the reasons for Montt's support.

I think we're really cooking with dynamite now, but where the hell is 172 lately? I have a sneaking suspicion that whatever compromise we reach will be reverted to one-sided leftist rhetoric presented as absolute fact soon after the page is unlocked (beginning the edit war anew) until we can get him to put aside his biases and accept a fair compromise on the controversial issues at hand.

ANTI-COMMUNIST.

I think if there's sufficient proof in US government/CIA archives that the Reagan administration supported/provided any kind of aid to Montt that would help him be successful in his coup, then "quietly" is better (it's pretty obvious that something like this would be kept secret if it were true.) "Allegedly" works if there isn't enough proof, otherwise it's not necessary. Trey Stone 21:46, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * "Allegedly" is a far more acceptable term than the loaded "quietly", as there is hardly UNDISPUTED proof of any such connection between the Reagan Admin. and the Montt coup. Remember that the point of this article is to give a history of Montt that is as untarnished by personal opinion as possible. If you claim to have a source (CIA or otherwise) that connects Montt's coup to Reagan, then that is one side of the story. Just as valid, however, is the denial of any such connection by the President himself.  This is an old battle with no clear winner but in one's own opinion: The Secret Document Vs. The Official Version, quote vs. quote, partisan vs. partisan...

I know how this works. Slanted by your willingness to believe in the connection, you will present it as fact. Slanted by my own biases, I will dismiss the claim outright. But neither of these is acceptable in our further attempts at creating as balanced, accurate, and factual an Encyclopedia as possible. That's exactly WHY those allegations should be listed here, and also why they cannot be presented as absolute.

I have stated the reasons why I will not accept "quietly" as an adjective here. I suggest instead "alleged", "claimed", "thought by some..."

The ball is in your court now. Good night to you (at least where I live, that is...)

ANTI-COMMUNIST

Hey dude, calm down. I was just making a comment. I'm pretty far away from being a leftist or a liberal. Trey Stone 03:57, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Didn't say you were a leftie, Trey (and even if you are, you have some common sense and a civil manner about you. You're obviously not a Marxist propogandist like 172 anyway). I was Just telling you why a definitive term like "quietly backed" is unacceptable in this particular passage of this particular article. Have a nice day now.

ANTI-COMMUNIST

title: Talk:Efraín Ríos Montt/Archive 2


text:
Pope Urban

Pope Urban may refer to one of several popes of the Catholic denomination:

 * Pope Urban I, pope c. 222–230, a Saint
 * Pope Urban II, pope 1088–1099, the Blessed Pope Urban
 * Pope Urban III, pope 1185–1187
 * Pope Urban IV, pope 1261–1264
 * Pope Urban V, pope 1362–1370, also the Blessed Pope Urban
 * Pope Urban VI, pope 1378–1389
 * Pope Urban VII, pope 1590, had the shortest recognized papal reign
 * Pope Urban VIII, pope 1623–1644

title: Pope Urban


text:
Banasthali Vidyapith

Banasthali Vidyapith (Banasthali University) is a university located in the Tonk district of the Rajasthan state in India. It is a deemed university offering programs at the secondary, senior secondary, undergraduate, and postgraduate degree levels.

History
Banasthali Vidyapith was founded on 6 October 1935 by freedom fighters and educationists Hiralal Shastri and Ratan Shastri. The institution was declared as a 'Deemed University' in 1983. While NAAC has re-accredited Banasthali Vidyapith at the highest possible ‘Grade A’ level in 2011, the Review Committee (Tandon Committee) of Ministry of HRD also appreciated the overall efforts of Vidyapith in the areas of Institutional Governance, Academic Achievements, Research, Student Progression, Infrastructure etc. and categorized Banasthali Vidyapith under ‘Category A’ list of ‘Institutions Deemed to be University’ in 2010. The university is featured in NIRF, QS I Gauge, and Times Higher Education rankings. In 2020, NAAC accredited this university with A++ grading.

The Vidyapith has had virtual autonomy for its school programmes since the beginning and was affiliated to an outside agency for its university programmes in 1983. In 1983, the government of India, on the advice of the University Grants Commission, notified the Vidyapith as an institution deemed to be university.

After attaining university status, The Vidyapith restructured its undergraduate programme. At the postgraduate level, it introduced courses in Computer Science, Operational Research, Electronics and Biotechnology. Teacher Education and Management have been started. New courses include M.Sc. (Bio-Informatics), M.Sc. (Pharmaceutical Chemistry) and M.Sc. (Applied Microbiology).

Along with professional programmes such as MBA and MCA, all postgraduate courses in the Faculty of Science have a semester system. From 2004, all Social Science, Humanities and Home Science Post-graduate programmes have been run as semester courses.

Campus
The campus is a sprawling 850 acres, located about 80 kilometres from the capital city of Jaipur, in the Tonk district of Rajasthan, India. The campus has been broadly divided into the school division, the University division and the residential blocks. The residential blocks feature 29 hostels each with the capacity of housing up to 438 students.

The Laxmi Bai maidan (field) which is approximately 2660 square km. is used for parades and annual fairs, whereas the Vidula maidan (4195 sq. km. approx.) has fields for games such as hockey, volleyball, tennis, yoga, martial arts and mass physical display activities. The Veer Bala maidan is used for horse riding and the Shakuntlam playground is the cricket ground of the campus. The campus also features a swimming pool.

The campus also features a licensed airstrip of 50,191,418 sq. metres, which is used to train the students in flying and guiding.

Banasthali Vidyapith also features its own hospital called Apaji Arogya Mandir, a guest house for parents and official guests, and a community radio station called Radio Banasthali.

Management
The main statutory bodies of Banasthali Vidyapith are:
 * General Council
 * Executive Council
 * Finance Council
 * Academic Council

Officers

 * President
 * Vice-President
 * Vice-Chancellor
 * Pro Vice-Chancellor
 * Treasurer
 * Secretary
 * Deans, including Deans/Heads of the Centres of Higher Education
 * Co-ordinator, School Education

School Education
Banasthali Vidyapith provides school education from elementary to senior secondary. At the senior secondary level, student can opt for Science, Commerce or Humanities as their stream.

Undergraduate programs
The university offers 18 undergraduate programs in the disciplines of Mathematics, Science, Management, Commerce, Arts, Engineering, Aviation, Education, Design, Law, and Journalism. All the programs are of three years duration except for the Bachelor of Education (B.Ed) which is of 2 years, BA LLB which is of 5 years and the Bachelor of Technology (B.Tech) which is of 4 years.

Postgraduate Programs
The university offers 61 masters programs and 32 Doctorates in the disciplines of Humanities, Social Sciences, Sciences, Law, Education, Commerce and Management.

Accreditation
The National Assessment and Accreditation Council (NAAC) accredited Banasthali University with ‘A++' grade. The Ministry of HRD has listed the university under the top 'MHRD A Category.

Atal Incubation Center
Banasthali Vidyapith has partnered with Atal Innovation Mission, NITI Aayog to establish first of its kind all women Atal Incubation Centre.

National Resource Center in Management
MHRD has set up Center of Excellence in Management at Banasthali Vidyapith for developing Annual Refresher Program in Teaching. The online modules are hosted by SWAYAM Portal.

Rankings
The National Institutional Ranking Framework (NIRF) ranked Banasthali Vidyapith 97th overall in India in 2023, 58th among universities, and 23 in the pharmacy ranking.

Notable alumni

 * Atiqa Bano, educationist and activist
 * Avani Chaturvedi, Indis's first female combat pilot
 * Hemlata Talesra, professor, educationalist and activist
 * Kamla Beniwal, governor of Gujarat
 * Meira Kumar, speaker of Lok Sabha
 * Sudesh Dhankar, Second Lady of India
 * Sumitra Singh, Former Speaker, Rajasthan Legislative Assembly
 * Sunita Godara, marathon runner
 * Yashoda Devi, former Member of the Legislative Assembly

title: Banasthali Vidyapith


text:
Strict nature reserves of Finland

Strict nature reserves (luonnonpuisto) are specific areas in Finland which have been established for scientific reasons. Their primary purpose is the conservation of nature and research. The regulations for the nature reserves are much stricter than those for the national parks of Finland. It is usually not permitted to travel inside the areas, although some areas have trails open for the public. The strict nature reserves cover a total area of 1,530 km2.

There are a total of 19 strict nature reserves in Finland. 17 of them are managed by the Metsähallitus and 2 by the Forest Research Institute Metla.

List of nature reserves

 * Häädetkeidas
 * Karkali
 * Kevo
 * Koivusuo
 * Malla
 * Maltio
 * Olvassuo
 * Paljakka
 * Pelso
 * Pisavaara
 * Runkaus
 * Salamanperä
 * Sompio
 * Sukerijärvi
 * Sinivuori
 * Ulvinsalo
 * Vaskijärvi
 * Vesijako
 * Värriö

title: Strict nature reserves of Finland


text:
Vnukovo International Airport

Vnukovo, formally Vnukovo Andrei Tupolev International Airport (named after Andrei Tupolev) (Внуково), is a dual-runway international airport located in Vnukovo District, 28 km southwest of the centre of Moscow, Russia. It is one of the four major airports that serve Moscow, along with Domodedovo, Sheremetyevo, and Zhukovsky.

In 2019, the airport handled 24.01 million passengers, representing an increase of 12% compared to the previous year. Vnukovo was the eleventh-busiest airport in Europe in 2021 but had a strong decline in traffic and dropped to 30th place in 2022 as a consequence of sanctions following the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

History
Vnukovo is Moscow's oldest operating airport. It was opened and used for military operations during the Second World War but became a civilian facility after the war. Its construction was approved by the Soviet government in 1937 because the older Khodynka Aerodrome (located much closer to the city centre, but closed by the 1980s) was becoming overloaded.

Vnukovo was built by several thousand inmates of Likovlag, a Gulag concentration camp created specifically for this purpose, and opened on 1 July 1941. During the Great Patriotic War, it was used as a military airbase; passenger services started after the war.

On 15 September 1956, the Tupolev Tu-104 jetliner made its first passenger flight from Moscow Vnukovo to Irkutsk via Omsk.

On 4 November 1957, a plane carrying Romanian Workers' Party officials, including the most prominent politicians of Communist Romania (Gheorghe Gheorghiu-Dej, Chivu Stoica, Alexandru Moghioroș, Ştefan Voitec, Nicolae Ceauşescu, Leonte Răutu, and Grigore Preoteasa), was involved in an accident at Vnukovo Airport. Preoteasa, who was the minister of foreign affairs at the time, was killed, as was the aircraft's crew. Several others were seriously injured.

The first passenger flights of the IL-18 (Moscow to Alma-Ata on 20 April 1956) and Tu-114 (Moscow to Khabarovsk on 24 April 1961) were also made from Vnukovo Airport. In 1980, Vnukovo was expanded because of the 22nd Summer Olympic Games. In 1993, Vnukovo Airport became a joint-stock company.

A massive reconstruction and strategic development programme commenced at Vnukovo International in late 2003, following the transfer by the federal government of the controlling stake in the airport to the government of Moscow.

As part of the Airport Strategic Development Plan, these projects were completed between 2003 and 2005:

 * April 2004: New Terminal B was opened. The terminal currently handles international passengers, but in the future, it will be converted to handle domestic flights or to fulfill any other dedicated functions to be determined at a later date. The terminal's total floor space offering stands at 80000 m2), allowing for an annual passenger throughput capacity of four million.
 * August 2005: Vnukovo's Aeroexpress rail link to Kiyevsky Rail Terminal was opened.
 * December 2010: New Terminal A was opened.
 * Summer 2016: All flights served by Terminal B were transferred into Terminal A, and Terminal B was closed.

Vnukovo is Europe's busiest airport for international flights by larger private planes.

Location and capacity
Of the three Moscow airports, Vnukovo is the highest (204 m above sea level), so in case of fog, it has frequently served as an alternative airport.

The airfield has two intersecting runways of 3500 m and 3060 m in length. Each runway is 60 m wide, with 10 m-wide safety shoulders on each side. The joint runway capacity is 60 aircraft movements per hour. Runway 24 is mostly used for departures, while Runway 01 is for landings.

The airport has two passenger terminals (Terminal A and Terminal B), one general aviation terminal (for charter and business flights), one cargo terminal, and 60 aircraft stands.

The airport can handle a maximum of 10,100 passengers per hour, and 4,000 people are employed there. In 2013, the airport handled almost 11.18 million passengers, representing a 15.3% increase compared to 2012. In February 2014 the airport handled 722,500 passengers, an increase of 23.8% compared to February 2013, partly attributed to expansion by Utair.

Vnukovo Airport is equipped with a VIP hall, which is used by many political leaders and important people visiting Russia. The Russian President also uses Vnukovo's VIP facility. The Tupolev airliner rework facility is located at the edge of the airport, and major overhaul and modification programmes are carried out in several large aircraft hangars. On the northern perimeter of the airport, the government VIP transport wing is located, operating head-of-state flights for high-ranking government officials. Thus, the airport is occasionally closed for regular flights when VIP flights arrive or depart.

Further expansion
The prospective development programme was intended to last until 2015, and was aimed at transforming Vnukovo International into a highly competitive air transportation hub of international significance – one that would offer a comprehensive range of quality services to both its passengers and its tenant carriers.

A new international passenger Terminal A will have a total floor space of 250,000 m2 and passenger throughput capacity of 7,800 passengers per hour, making a total capacity of 18–20 million passengers annually. This will open up many opportunities for the tenant airlines to expand and improve the quality of their customer service at the airport, and ensure the introduction of international-quality service and comfort overall. The sprawling terminal building will be located on the site of the existing domestic passenger terminal, and will also serve as a springboard for the subsequent development of the entire adjacent landside area both next to the terminal and further out towards Vnukovo Settlement. The oldest of the Vnukovo passenger terminals, dating back to 1941, will be demolished by the time construction of the new one goes ahead (it was started to be dismantled in November 2005). The existing domestic Terminal 2, built in the late 1970s, will continue in operation until its eventual demolition during the final phase of construction and replacement with the new terminal.

The expansion plans include lengthening one of the two V-configured runways (3,500 m and 3,060 m long) to 3,800 m and upgrading the instrument landing system from the present CAT II to CAT III. The existing taxiways are to be extended as part of the expansion and new ones will also be built, along with a brand new control tower, an extension to the cargo terminal, and a multistory car park.

Terminals
Terminal A is the only terminal used both for domestic and international flights. Terminals B and D are out of service as of October 2017.

Rail

Aeroexpress direct line connects Vnukovo Airport and Kiyevsky Rail Terminal in Moscow city centre was opened in August 2005. One-way journey costs 500 rubles (420 rubles for online purchase) (as of November 2017). The journey takes 35 minutes.

Bus
Moscow city can be reached by the municipal Mosgortrans bus lines: 611 - reaches two consecutive stations (Troparyovo and Yugo-Zapadnaya) of Moscow Metro Sokolnicheskaya Line, 611k (611к) reaches only the nearest Salaryevo station of Moscow Metro Sokolnicheskaya Line, but avoids the often congested crossing with MKAD road; nearby Rumyantsevo station is only easily accessible on the way to the airport, not away from it. The fare is 50 rubles (as of September, 2016; eq. to 0.77 US$), travel time 20-35 min. by schedule. Private marshrutka line 45 also serves this direction. One-way journey costs 150 rubles (as of February 2016; eq. to 2 US$). Due to heavy traffic in Moscow, journey takes 15 minutes to 1 hour.

Taxi
Several taxi services to Moscow city and suburbs are available at the airport. Uber, Gett, Yandex.Taxi and local transportation network companies offer flat rate trips to anywhere in Moscow.

Metro

Since 6 September 2023 Airport is served by "Aeroport Vnukovo" Metro station, terminus of Moscow Metro Line 8a (Kalininsko-Solntsevskaya Line).

Other facilities
Previously Vnukovo Airlines had its head office at the airport.

Ownership
The airport is co-owned by the Russian state and Russian businessman Vitaly Vantsev and his partners. In March 2018, Qatar Airways announced plans to buy a 25 percent stake in Vnukovo Airport.

Accidents and incidents

 * On 21 December 1943, a Lisunov Li-2 crashed while on a training flight due to a defect in the left rear fuel tank.
 * On 4 March 1944, Douglas C-47A crashed into a Bell P-39Q Airacobra on the ground while attempting to execute a go-around.
 * On 5 November 1946, Douglas C-47B crashed after the crew decided to go-around some 300 m (980 ft) past a landing sign. The aircraft was flying low and engine power was sharply increased. The aircraft went into a steep climb, lost speed and crashed 600 m (2,000 ft) from the landing sign.
 * On 5 November 1946, an Aeroflot-Lithuania Lisunov Li-2 crashed due to fuel exhaustion after repeated approach attempts while in a holding pattern.
 * On 1 July 1947, an Aeroflot Ilyushin Il-12 crashed after the left engine failed on takeoff, causing a loss of airspeed.
 * On 29 March 1951, an Aeroflot Ilyushin Il-12P crashed during which the right propeller struck the top of a radio tower.
 * On 14 June 1957, an Ilyushin Il-14P operating LOT Polish Airlines Flight 232 crashed after the crew did not follow instruction to use an instrument approach.
 * On 4 November 1957, an Ilyushin Il-14P belonging to the Romanian Government crashed on approach in the fog. Grigore Preoteasa, who was the minister of foreign affairs at the time, was killed, as was the aircraft's crew.
 * On 2 September 1959, an Ilyushin Il-18B suffered significant structural damage, forcing it to make an emergency landing. The aircraft was written off.
 * On 23 October 1959, Aeroflot Flight 200 crashed in a forest on approach and was destroyed by fire, killing 28 of the 29 people aboard.
 * On 26 August 1969, an Aeroflot Ilyushin Il-18B crashed after the crew forgot to lower the landing gear, killing 16 passengers.
 * On 10 October 1971, Aeroflot Flight 773 crashed shortly after takeoff when an explosive device on board detonated, killing all 25 people aboard.
 * On 3 January 1976, Aeroflot Flight 2003, a Tupolev Tu-124, crashed 7 km west of Vnukovo Airport after both artificial horizons failed in IMC.
 * On 17 March 1979, Aeroflot Flight 1691 crashed 1.5 km away from the runway while attempting to return to the airport.
 * On 2 June 1980, a Soviet Air Force Antonov An-22A suffered an in-flight fire and crashed short of the runway.
 * On 16 January 2010, Utair Boeing 737-500 VQ-BAC departed the runway on landing and was substantially damaged when the nosewheel collapsed.
 * On 29 December 2012, a Red Wings TU-204 overran the runway hitting the M3 highway. The aircraft burst into flames and broke into three pieces, with dashcam footage showing a car being hit by the debris. Five people were killed.
 * On 20 October 2014, a Dassault Falcon 50 collided on take-off with a snow plow, killing all four people on board, including the CEO of Total S.A. oil and gas company Christophe de Margerie.
 * In 2021, a young male passenger murdered a female airline staff member at the airport. They were said to have arranged a rendezvous after a flight. He fled and was caught after a few days on the run.

title: Vnukovo International Airport


text:
Dictionary coder

A dictionary coder, also sometimes known as a substitution coder, is a class of lossless data compression algorithms which operate by searching for matches between the text to be compressed and a set of strings contained in a data structure (called the 'dictionary') maintained by the encoder. When the encoder finds such a match, it substitutes a reference to the string's position in the data structure.

Methods and applications
Some dictionary coders use a 'static dictionary', one whose full set of strings is determined before coding begins and does not change during the coding process. This approach is most often used when the message or set of messages to be encoded is fixed and large; for instance, an application that stores the contents of a book in the limited storage space of a PDA generally builds a static dictionary from a concordance of the text and then uses that dictionary to compress the verses. This scheme of using Huffman coding to represent indices into a concordance has been called "Huffword".

In a related and more general method, a dictionary is built from redundancy extracted from a data environment (various input streams) which dictionary is then used statically to compress a further input stream. For example, a dictionary is built from old English texts then is used to compress a book.

More common are methods where the dictionary starts in some predetermined state but the contents change during the encoding process, based on the data that has already been encoded. Both the LZ77 and LZ78 algorithms work on this principle. In LZ77, a circular buffer called the "sliding window" holds the last N bytes of data processed. This window serves as the dictionary, effectively storing every substring that has appeared in the past N bytes as dictionary entries. Instead of a single index identifying a dictionary entry, two values are needed: the length, indicating the length of the matched text, and the offset (also called the distance), indicating that the match is found in the sliding window starting offset bytes before the current text.

LZ78 uses a more explicit dictionary structure; at the beginning of the encoding process, the dictionary is empty. An index value of zero is used to represent the end of a string, so the first index of the dictionary is one. At each step of the encoding process, if there is no match, then the last matching index (or zero) and character are both added to the dictionary and output to the compressed stream. If there is a match, then the working index is updated to the matching index, and nothing is output.

LZW is similar to LZ78, but, the dictionary is initialized to all possible symbols. The typical implementation works with 8 bit symbols, so the dictionary "codes" for hex 00 to hex FF (decimal 255) are pre-defined. Dictionary entries would be added starting with code value hex 100. Unlike LZ78, if a match is not found (or if the end of data), then only the dictionary code is output. This creates a potential issue since the decoder output is one step behind the dictionary. Refer to LZW for how this is handled. Enhancements to LZW include handing symbol sizes other than 8 bits and having reserved codes to reset the dictionary and to indicate end of data.

title: Dictionary coder


text: User talk:80.141.117.238

title: User talk:80.141.117.238