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Talk:Mjölnir

Pronunciation?
Does anyone know how to pronounce mjolnir? I've not been able to figure it out or find it. I've been saying it like (mah-law-ner) and im probably wrong. anybody know? User:SirParagon

 * Usually Js end up with a Y sound, so something like mih-yohl-ner would be close. I figure even if I mangle the word by saying it that way, it still sounds better than saying mole-ner and pretending the J doesn't exist. ;-) --NormanEinstein 13:43, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)
 * I had a professor who said there was a glottal stop in there which doesn't translate at all into modern English. It's kind of a throat clearing sound at the top of the throat.  Anyway, it sounds like Myoat-ner.  The glottal stop is the oat.

I have heard, from not-necessarily-schollarly sources that the pronunciation is something like im-yole-nir with the stress on the first and second syllables.

can anybody give a pronunciation that is backed up and properly cited?

I pronounce it Myolnir. That's the approximate Scandinavian pronunciation (cf. Scandinavian languages). This is backed up by the Infoplease article, which cites the Random House Unabridged Dictionary. I have two other unabridged dictionaries I can check if that doesn't satisfy everyone. None that there is no vowel between the M and the y. If you find that difficult to pronounce, it could be approximated by saying "Me-olnir" with a really quick "e". --70.36.146.44 01:42, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

This is clering up a lot for me. I have been pronouncing it Maj-in-a-ler. This must be very wrong.

I Know 7 19:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes the most common misstake is putting a vowel sound between the M and J which is wrong. Suggestions to think of it as Me-ölnir is probably good for english speakers. Another thing to note is that ö is not pronounced like the o in body but more as the i in girl or bird. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.230.185.230 (talk) 22:07, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Wow, and I always thought it was my-jolly-near. Never would have guessed that the jolly j would be silent. Myolnir from now on then. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.203.254.1 (talk) 11:35, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Dubious: Mjolnir, the hammer's name in Norse myth and Stan Lee
Stan Lee, co-creater of Marvel Comics's The Mighty Thor claims that Mjolnir is a made up word.--Carlaude (talk) 16:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Unless Lee is a vampire or a time traveler or a time-traveling vampire, he is spectacularly wrong here. Let's clear this up once and for all. As I understand, "Mjöllnir" would be the proper Old Norse name (ctrl+f the word here: - Lokasenna is from at least the 13th century) and the term is sometimes anglicized as "Mjolnir" or "Mjollnir" without the ö. In modern Danish and Norwegian, that'd be with an ø instead of ö. Now, if you think Lee's claiming he made up the precise anglicization "Mjolnir" a simple Google Books search proves him wrong, yielding hits from at least 1901 . bloodofox: (talk) 19:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

 * He must have forgot where he learned it and maybe thought he (or someone else) had made it up. In any case your link shows him to be wrong, thanks. --Carlaude (talk) 21:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No problem, glad to help! bloodofox: (talk) 21:49, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

 * Stan Lee is famous for spinning yarns, I wouldn't really take his side if there are conflicting accounts. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 19:02, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Stan Lee often forgets things easily. So it was probably just a simple mistake. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.183.250.4 (talk) 21:57, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

 * He's technically correct as long as he didn't specify when. All words are made up at some point 208.110.180.67 (talk) 23:50, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

I realize I'm very late to this discussion, but I think someone's misread Ol' Stan's comments (or maybe he stated them wrong, he does do that sometimes, bless him). I've never heard him say the name Mjolnir was made up, but rather that Uru, the name of the mystic material Thor's hammer is made from (in Marvel comics anyway) was made up.69.212.125.129 (talk) 19:17, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Orchard Reference and Poor Editing
Dab recently altered a cited sentence and reformatted it to read "The term translated as "hammer" might actually refer to an axe or club." Before this edit, the reference was attached to "though generally recognized and depicted as a hammer, Mjölnir is actually an axe or club but misconceived as a hammer", a line that is certainly not something Orchard would have in his handbook. This transparently wrong statement stems from an adjustment by an anonymous IP here. Prior to the IP edit, the sentence was a far more reasonable "Though generally recognized and depicted as a hammer, Mjölnir is sometimes referred to as an axe or club". This appears to be what was originally attached to the reference. This is obviously not the same as a supposed issue of translation that Dab conjures up in his edit.

It's most likely that Orchard's statement refers to Thor's weapon in Gesta Danorum (club) and to perhaps even some Bronze Age-related topics. Obviously, users editing this page need to be clear what they're doing, both to themselves and others; if it were up to me, edit summaries would be required (and gibberish would be auto-reverted). It should be obvious that adjusting a citation to make it seem more "reasonable" without checking the source is a bad idea.

All that said, I do own a copy of Orchard's handbook, but it's on the other side of the ocean. I'll check it when I return to see exactly what it says. This entire article could use a total rewrite (in fact, I've slated it for demolition since I rewrote many of the Thor-related articles to WP:GA standard some time ago). I hope to be able to take some appropriate time out for it soon. Meanwhile, edits like this are not helping this page get any better. :bloodofox: (talk) 09:51, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

 * I thought the same thing, and was going to replace the Orchard ref with something better. I find it amusing, once again, that I only need to touch a poorly-written article to cnojure up bloodofox and his hyper-criticism. Suddenly, stuff that had been in the article for years gets weeded out before I get a chance to transform them into something useful.
 * Clearly, bloodofox doesn't judge articles by quality, but depending on whether "Dbachmann touched it". If I did touch it, he will indiscriminately throw out the good with the bad. As long as I don't touch it, it's ok for random nonsense to sit there for years. This is wikistalking. If you would just let me edit the article first, you can still then apply your Loki game to whatever I did and tell me which phrases I didn't footnote. Or perhaps just stop following me around and let me do my thing, because articles are usually the better for it. Not "WP:GA", perhaps, which translates "prettily formatted but still possibly abysmal in quality", but better than they were before. --dab (𒁳) 11:40, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

 * I have probably rewritten the majority of Norse and Germanic mythology articles at this point. Accusing me of "wikistalking" when you come to articles that I watch and add unreferenced material (or simply do something like I outline above) won't help your case. As always, your edits require references here (I guess that's what you mean by "Loki game"). Complain about it all you want but that will never change. I'll always hold you and anyone else that edits with me up to the requirement. You should probably just get used to it.

 * When you say "just let me edit the article", what you should be saying is "actually, maybe I should be using the sandbox more before I bring unreferenced material into the article space".

 * If you've got criticism for the WP:GA process, which is essentially the closest thing to peer review Wikipedia offers, then take it up with them. I know it demands citations—coherent ones, even—but that's just how we keep things like the above from happening. :bloodofox: (talk) 11:59, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * cute. I am complaining about your picking out my additions specifically, knowing full well that all you need to do is pick up a standard dictionary, while leaving random unreferenced crap alone. This is dual standards. Removing the standard etymology because it is "unreferenced (check any dictionary) but leaving in some unnotable random suggestion because it is attributed to "Turville-Petre, E.O.G. Myth and Religion of the North: The Religion of Ancient Scandinavia. London: Weidfeld and Nicoson, 1998. p81" does not result in better articles. I know I am wasting my breath, because if you haven't developed a sense of what is encyclopedic, it's not now going to happen. If you have knowledge on the topic, you are supposed to apply your judgement. You are not supposed to act algorithmically, like a shell script cutting paragraphs without any footnote. Even less are you to apply the algorithm of "cut any paragraph added by Dbachmann if it has no footnote; leave stuff alone".

 * this diff is exemplary:  : you encounter two statements in the lead,
 * In origin, Thor's hammer is a stone double hammer or battle-axe, a mythological weapon identified with the thunderbolt used to slay primeval monsters.
 * Mjölnir is depicted in Norse mythology as one of the most fearsome weapons, capable of leveling mountains.
 * both are equally "unreferenced". You remove the first (inserted by myself) but you do not touch the second (not inserted by me). Your insistence that you are just removing "unsourced" material falls flat on its face, because if you were, you would clearly have removed both. This has happened dozens of time. My claim of wikistalking is based on the fact that when presented with such situations, you will always and unfailingly remove whatever I have written, regardless of what else the article contains. It also jumps out in this case as I link to a fully referenced wiki article, my statement is completely unremarkable and just introduces a cross-link to material already referenced there. It would be a matter of 30 seconds to copy-paste the reference given in the target article, and since you are familiar with the topic, you already know that my statement isn't in any way controversial. In other words, there is really no excuse for your consistent behaviour whatsoever, no aspect of "improving the wiki", and no explanation other than puerile personal animosity. I don't know why you try to keep up the facade of your editing "in good faith", clearly you know what you are doing, I know what you are doing, and you know I know, so I really don't see the point. --dab (𒁳) 11:18, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

 * Dab, you're going to reference the material you add or you're just going to keep running into these problems. But this is all inconsequential. I'll give this article the rewrite it needs when I can. :bloodofox: (talk) 00:05, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

 * I'm sorry, but I'm new to the Wikipedia editing world. I wanted to let you all know that I cleaned up the story of Mjoelnir's creation so that it was coherent and, hopefully, a little more compelling. I was careful not to change any of the details as I was working from memory and not a citable source. Utgardsloki (talk) 23:40, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Sons of Ivaldi
In the section discussing Mjoelnir's orgins from the Skáldskaparmál, the wording makes it very confusing as to who the sons of Ivaldi are. Are they the two he bets with? The two who made mjoelnir? Both? I forget who the two pairs of dwarves are, but I do believe that it was four distinct dwarves, not two.

Anyone remember? Utgardsloki (talk) 23:30, 15 August 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Utgardsloki (talk • contribs) 21:11, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Mjölnir, St. Martin Hammer
Kindly explain how you associate St. Martin of Tours and his hammer with Mjölnir. Also explain the etymological links between "Mjölnir" and "Vajra". Thanks. Kleuske (talk) 12:46, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
 * this is the text that you reverted: "Parpola notes that the Proto-Indo-Aryan *vajra means "weapon of the war-god." It appears as a loan-word in Proto-West-Uralic as *vaśara, "hammer," "ax," probably from the "hammer" of Thor." Parpola 2015, p.63 Parpola clearly refers to "hammer of Thor." Regarding the hammer of Martin Tours, it's a nice irony that a Corded Ware battle axe, the same as being used by the Scandinavians and handled by Thor, was converted into a Christian battle hammer. Note that the vajra contains a flash of lightning.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   14:25, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Nevertheless, that gives WP:UNDUE weight to the opinion of a single author and "probably" does not rise to encyclopedic levels. Your association between the hammer of St. Martin and Mjölnir is just that, your association. You're welcome to that, and it's not implausible (IMHO) that the Martins hammer actually alludes to Mjölnir, but it's not in line with WP:OR to put it into an article without very sound sources. Kleuske (talk) 16:57, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
 * regarding Parpola: I don't agree right away that the connection between Mjollnir and vajra is undue. On the contrary: Parpola is a respected author, and Indo-European studies are relevant for both Europe and India. Regarding Martin's hammer and mjolnir: there are no soyrces on this topic; I've already checked. Might be interesting though to contact the museum.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   17:41, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Ah, here's a source: A. Kehoe, "Militant Christianity: An Anthropological History", Springer, p.98.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   17:54, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
 * (comment) @Kleuske: On Mjollnir (Mjölnir) and Vajra connection, many RS have and continue to discuss it: 1, 2, 3@ pages 7-14, 4, etc. I do not remember coming across any St Martin of Tours connection in past, so I don't know. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:05, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
 * thanks for the soirces. it's fascinating, isn't it? I was in this museum today, and I saw the relic. I immediately recognised the battle axe stone head, and was fascinated by the explanation. It wouldn't be unique, a "heathen"-turned-Christian object or story. And then this deeper layer of Indo-European history. This summer, in Norway, we saw these burial mounds from the 6th-8th century CE. From the Pontic steppe to Norway, in front of our eyes. Great!  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   20:40, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I just send an email to the museum, to ask if they've done any research on these connections.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   20:41, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
 * The text I removed implied linguistic links between the two. Sources pointing out simularities in mythology are relatively moot. Kleuske (talk) 21:16, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
 * @Kleuske: I have reworded it, because vajra-, vazra-, *vasara links look okay and well supported. I recall others such as Douglas Adams mentioning all this too, but I will need to locate the source and dig. @JJ: Indeed. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 21:42, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Please read WP:BRD and WP:UNDUE. I've reverted your readdition of the linguistic claims, based on WP:UNDUE.
 * I'm not impressed with your say-so. Especially since none of my concerns have actually been addressed. "Well supported" does not jive with "probably" and a single authors sayso. Kleuske (talk) 01:09, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
 * so, what do you feel is undue about it? I've read the policy again, but it mentions various points about which you may be concerned. I can't read minds, so I'd rather hear it from yourself. My point is that the Norse culture was one of the Indo-European cultures, which was in contact with the Uralic cultures. Similarities between various Indo-European cultures are relevant, precisely because of this connection between geographically far removed cultures. Indo-European studies are a huge topic! The influence on Uralic languages is relevant because it supports the proposed contact between these two language areas, which supports the Kurgan/steppe theory. By the way, the text you removed was in the etymology section; I'd think that that's an appropriate place for linguistic aspects.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   06:25, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
 * That Norse mythology is part of indo-germannic culture is kicking in an open door. No problems with that. My problem is that the statement "Parpola notes that the Proto-Indo-Aryan *vajra means "weapon of the war-god." It appears as a loan-word in Proto-West-Uralic as *vaśara, "hammer," "ax," probbaly from the "hammer" of Thor." suggests an etymological link where none is obvious and the author (i assume he's paraphrased correctly) does not make that claim unreservedly. Besides, given the time frames and assuming a definite etymological link, Mjölnir or "hamarr" would come from vaśara instead of the other way around. A speculative statement (and that's what I get from "probably") is not sufficient to rise to encyclopedic levels. Besides, a work on the origins of Hinduism and the Indus culture may not be the best source for this kind of statements on Norse mythology. Hence WP:UNDUE. Kleuske (talk) 12:51, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

That's an interesting possibility, because Parpola does argue that the name of Indra is derived from an Uralic god. NB: Parpola's book is about the Indo-Aryans and the Harappan civilization. Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   15:42, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Ah... And what exactly is the connection between Indra and Mjölnir? Kleuske (talk) 11:11, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
 * The same origins in Indo-European mythology? Indra as the Indian equivalent of Thor, both carrying the "Hammer of the war-god," c.q. thunderbolt. See, for example,    , including on "vajra" and "vasara." Which are more sources than I'd expected, including one by BRILL. So, how about a section on "comparative mythylogy"?   Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   14:47, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Some more:     . And here, on Thor and Indra (note 45): "His similarities with Indra have long been the subject of comments"   Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   15:05, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
 * There's no such thing as "Indo-European mythology". There's a shitload of European mythologies (plural) and a ditto amount of Indian mythologies (also plural). But let's examine the sources you provide.
 * The Origins and History of Religions. "May have been" and no further explanation, exept that "Indra was probably a thundergod" in some regions.
 * Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture No mention of Thor or Mjolnir
 * Paradise Rediscovered: The Roots of Civilisation, Volume 1 Hey, presto... It mentions Thor, Mjolnir and Indra but does not link them in any way. Let alone etymologically. Ok.
 * War and Sacrifice: Studies in the Archaeology of Conflict. Not even a reference. No mention of Thor, Indra or Mjolnir.
 * History of Religious Ideas, Volume 2: From Gautama Buddha to the Triumph of ... Erotic tendencies in Indra a Thor dresses up as a bride. Hence they are connected. Whoop-di-do. Saying this is speculative is an understatement.
 * Boot, Hooves and Wheels: And the Social Dynamics behind South Asian Warfare A (vague) resemblance (use of club-like weapons) is noted between Indra, Perun and Thor. No association whatsoever is claimed.
 * Paradise rediscovered Again. Indra and Thor both use club-like weapons, and a transfer of the Labrys (another mythology) into the hands of The Patriarchy, personified by Zeus/Indra/Thor. Zeus is, etymologically associated with Tyr (Tiwaz), not Thor, to the best of my knowledge. Again, saying this is speculative is an understatement.
 * Van Anima tot Zeus: encyclopedie van begrippen uit mythologie, religie ... Claims both Thor and Indra are "archetypal symbols of power", but refrains from actually linking them.
 * Myths of Pre-Columbian America Are you kidding me? If I were to take you seriously on this, we could link Indra Zeus and Thor to Precolumbian Mayan deities.
 * Lightning: Nature and Culture Loads of cultures had a god of thunder, because it's a very impressive natural phenomenon. There's your explaination, btw.
 * Indian Myth and Legend (Illustrations) Loads of Gods with hammers. Gaelic, Hittite, Assyrian and Chinese ones, too. Interesting, but no connection (apart from lightning). Explanation (offered by me): Lightning is impressive, a blacksmith's hammer (or a metal club) strikes sparks and the human capacity for associations is virtually unlimited. Hence Hammers and lightning got linked in many cultures.
 * The Handbook of Tibetan Buddhist Symbols Again... Are you kidding me? Thor is a "Teutonic" god? That claim alone dismisses the author as a reliable source on this subject.
 * As to your last ditch attempt, being the subject of discussion is not a statement of fact concerning the links between Indra, Thor and Hercules (had a club, too).
 * Overall, I am less than impressed. Loads of cultures have thundergods and supplying said thundergods with some implement for striking things is (given the nature of lightning and thunderstrikes) not a big surprise. You'd pretty much expect that. Sourcing a claim is not the same as typing keywords into google and copy-pasting the result. You are wasting my time. Kleuske (talk) 16:29, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Regarding "Indo-European mythology": the shared roots of Indian and European languages, and also (aspects of) religion and mythology, is an obvious fact, and a topic that's been studied in the academics for a long time. See, for example, Jaan Puhvel, "Comparative Mythology." See also Proto-Indo-European religion.
 * Regarding my "last ditch attempt": WP:TRUTH. Wikipedia gives an overview of relevant info; if there is a recurrent theme of authors linking these two godheads, then that's relevant, and can be mentioned as "Thor and Indra, and their warhammer, have repeatedly been compared [source 1, 2, 3 etc.]."
 * Regarding "Loads of cultures have thundergods": sure. But not all cultures have Indo-European roots.
 * Regarding "sourcing a claim": this is just the Google-search. If I intend to write aboiut it, using those sources, you'll know.
 * Regarding "You are wasting my time": that's a misplaced comment. If that's how you're feeling, then you should ask yourself why you're editing anyway. See also WP:OWN.
 * Joshua Jonathan  -  Let's talk!   17:21, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
 * PS: War and sacrifice, p.83.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   17:24, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

My point, above, was that there is no "recurrent theme of authors linking these two godheads". At best, there's a recurrent theme of authors noting similarities, which isn't very surprising, givenm the similarities in their respective divine domains (thunder and lightning). It was also my point that authors on Tibetan Buddhism, precolumbian mythology or the origins of Hinduism are not reliable sources on Norse mythology. As to the text you now propose, we should also note similarities with every other thunder- or hammer/mace carrying deity. That's way outside the scope of this article, which concerns itself with one of these mythological weapons: Mjölnir, not Thor, not comparative theology, not speculative forays into imagined Proto-Indo-European mythology. it is about Mjölnir. Linking Thor to Indra is off-topic in this article. If you want to link Mjölnir to Indra's mace, let's have the source that links them. So far, none have been provided and I needed to read the entire copy/pasted list of Google results to find out. And since you're now, very much, shifting goalposts, I stick to my point that you're wasting my time for the reasons stated. Kleuske (talk) 17:49, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
 * You've got a point indeed, when you write that similarities are to be expected anyway between various thundergods. I hadn't thought about it this way yet. My interest is in Indo-European origins, so in that frame of reference it's interesting to note similarities, especially because the vajra and Mjolnir look so differently. Cheers,  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   05:17, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

 * User:Kleuske having discovered that Paradise Rediscovered has plagiarised at least one of our articles, I took another look at the author. He's an "it all started with Atlantis" man. Doug Weller  talk 16:58, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

The name in reference to Odin
In the Santa page on Wikipedia the word Jolnir is associated with Yule Figure when compared to Odin.

That, if true, is quite a coincidence. LeapUK (talk) 10:16, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * It may just be me, but I see no mention of any 'Jolnir' on that page, coincidental or otherwise. Nor did I find any sources referring to this. Kleuske (talk) 11:07, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Search for Jólnir. The line says "The leader of the wild hunt is frequently attested as the god Wodan (Norse Odin), bearing (among many names) the names Jólnir, meaning "Yule figure", and Langbarðr, meaning "long-beard", in Old Norse." So, it's another name for Odin.  Joshua Jonathan   -  Let's talk!   12:17, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Found it. Thanks. I wouldn't attach too much meaning to two (more or less) similar names, though. I also advice a firm dose of skepticism when dealing with this kind of folklore pundits. Case in point: the Wild Hunt ws very popular in the 19th century and much nonsense was produced attributing all kinds of things to it. Kleuske (talk) 12:27, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Lifting Mjöllnir
It is my understanding the "only the worthy can lift the hammer" is just a Marvel fiction, it has no historical root in the Norse mythology. Can someone please confirm or deny this?

If it is true than the article should state it.

If it is false then the article should probably mention it, too and we should remove the note 2 which refers to this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by UnoSD (talk • contribs) 11:21, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Hey I just want to mention that technically "Marvel Comic`s Thor" does NOT use the hammer to fly, it is rather "psuedo-flight" achieved by throwing the hammer while holding into it (as thus he spins it rapidly before throwing it, apparently it is not just for show) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:464b:90bd:0:6107:c41d:b97f:fa01 (talk) 15:37, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Grindstone reference
Under etymology there are a couple of references to the name being related to grind stones and grinding meal, which would be interesting to compare to the Biblical reference to an angel casting down a "stone like a great millstone" (Rev 18:21) into the ocean (that being the home of jormungandr) to destroy Babylon (which is ruled by a Dragon).

Things like this make me wonder on cross-cultural influences. LeapUK (talk) 11:24, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I think it would be some serious OR to say that the two are related, but there was a study done a few years back that was able to trace pretty much every "origin story" myth to the same location (i.e. pretty much every culture has the same base story that came from a single region). Primefac (talk) 13:16, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, we know the link amongst Indo-European religions, so it would not be that large a step. Maybe someone with some funding and tenure can look into it? :D LeapUK (talk) 12:42, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Pronunciation
The article currently shows a pronunciation with a long "aw" sound /ɔ:/, but the reference is to Random House. At the Random House Dictionary, if you click "show IPA", the IPA transcription shows a short /ɔ/ sound, not a long /ɔ:/. It also shows an ending in /ɪr/. This seems to me more correct that the IPA currently shown in this article. Worth correcting? 86.163.171.174 (talk) 22:32, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Use by white supremacists
I added content on the use of Mjolnir symbology by white supremacists.

excised my contribution with the edit summary "here is already plenty of modern appropriation information."

I am going to request a fuller explanation than that. Serious scholars have written about the modern white supremacist connection. Is it your position this doesn't belong in the article? Geo Swan (talk) 03:47, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * There's already a paragraph in the article citing the ADL. :bloodofox: (talk) 04:13, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Pretty much. Primefac (talk) 10:28, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

 * Please review WP:DUE. Before I added that new material I looked at the article, to see if the use by white supremacists was already covered, and that single paragraph escaped my notice.

 * So, are you saying that single paragraph, buried in the middle of a section, is prominent enough to reflect the symbol's usage by white supremacists? Geo Swan (talk) 04:09, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

 * A single paragraph citing the ADL is plenty, yes. :bloodofox: (talk) 05:01, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

 * Clarification please, was your reply based solely on your common sense, or your existing pool of knowledge? What kind of reporting on the relationship between Mjolnir and white supremacists, skinheads, bikers and neo-nazis would it require for you to think this merits more coverage?  Geo Swan (talk) 14:46, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

It seems the text under contention is this:
 * When Jake Angeli, a fur-clad, bare-chested supporter of the QAnon movement, and a supporter of Donald Trump was recorded participating in the attempt to seize the US Capitol building, on January 6, 2021, scholars attempted to explain what his Mjölnir tattoo, and his other Norse inspired tattoos, meant to neo-nazis and other white supremacist groups.

I honestly cannot understand the objection to including that. It's a reasonable statement to make, it's adequately source, and it fits perfectly in the "Modern use" section. ~Anachronist (talk) 16:21, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Again, the fact that the symbol has seen some neo-Nazi use in the very modern era is covered by the ADL, and the source you've posted is based on the ADL's database. This isn't the place to speculate about Angeli's tattoo choices, it's undue emphasis on a single guy's tattoo. Finally, while irrelevant, the source you're providing is misleading: A scholar in the field would know very well that the Black Sun symbol is neither "Norse" nor any older than Himmler's Wewelsburg remodel, so either editorial pasted it on after the author submitted it or the author is not as versed in the field as he should be. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:11, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
 * There is a mistake I see that is pretty common - contributors who use their own personal editorial judgment, when they should defer to the editorial judgment of WP:Reliable sources.  I am not a reliable source.  I know I am not a reliable source.  Jimbo Wales is not a reliable source.  No contributor here is a reliable source.  No offence, that includes you., you are not a reliable source.
 * Do you think your defense of excision is an instance of you using your personal editorial judgment instead of deferring to RS?
 * As to what a scholar would know -- clarification - are you challenging whether Tom Birkett is a scholar? Did you google him before you made this challenge?  Here are a few works I suggest establish he IS a scholar.  I'd appreciate you either acknowledging Birkett IS a scholar, or offer a more substantive explanation as to why you would place your personal judgement before his.  Geo Swan (talk) 12:16, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Iceland had a Nazi party, with a party newsletter named "Mjölnir". Here is an RS. Geo Swan (talk) 13:39, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Birkett is obviously a scholar, but the article you've provided attributed to him prominently displays an inarguably false statement about the black sun. We know this because we have reliable sources over at Black Sun (symbol) that chart the symbol's origins from Wewelsburg and discuss how and why it became to be known as the "black sun" around the early 90s.
 * Birkett is obviously a scholar, but the article you've provided attributed to him prominently displays an inarguably false statement about the black sun. We know this because we have reliable sources over at Black Sun (symbol) that chart the symbol's origins from Wewelsburg and discuss how and why it became to be known as the "black sun" around the early 90s.

 * There's a ton of stuff named after the hammer. This is particularly the case in the Nordic countries, where one will encounter locations like Mjølnerparken ('the Mjölnir park') in Copenhagen, Dennmark and frequent visual representations of the hammer, as well as references to the hammer for a variety of govenrnment and military uses (like the HSwMS Mjölner). Meanwhile, in the US, the United States Department of Veterans Affairs offers it as a headstone option for veterans, and American company Marvel's rendition of the hammer, Mjolnir (comics), is super represented in pop culture.

 * In short, the symbol sees a tremendous amount of use in modern popular culture, and one small aspect of this is its use by a segment of white nationalists (and, come to think of it, after spending a fair amount of time checking out the Capitol riot's iconography, I am not aware of symbols from the ancient North Germanic record appearing beyond this guy's tattoos, a guy who was also wearing what appears to be a faux Blackfoot headdress and evidently considers himself to be both a Christian and an alien). An improved modern influence section, which I am preparing, will chart the many uses the symbol has seen in the modern era. :bloodofox: (talk) 21:00, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

 * , thanks for clarifying that you acknowledge Birkett is a genuine scholar. Note: that makes him an RS.

 * You then assert that in the article I linked to Birkett displayed "an inarguably false statement about the black sun." I've worked on some articles on pretty controversial topics.  I've worked on articles where I personally disagreed with every single RS.  The way I see it, a policy compliant contributor has just two policy compliant choices when they disagree with RS.  The way I see it the two choices are: (1) keep our personal opinions to ourselves, and doing our best to cover the RS we disagree with as neutrally as possible; or (2) walk away from that article, and let other people work on it.

 * I've made thousands of edits using RS I personally disagreed with. I think I did an okay job of using those RS, and keeping my personal opinion to myself.  I'd like to be able to expect the same effort from my fellow contributors.

 * Now if I understand what you are saying here, aren't you justifying excising the material I added, and the Birkett reference, because you PERSONALLY disagree with Birkett? So, aren't you falling short of various policies?  Isn't your personal disagreement with Birkett, well, irrelevant - because he is an RS, and you, well, are not.

 * I spent hundreds of hours reading the 25,000 pages of OARDEC documents. I read every page that was made public, through FOIA.  Privately, I thought that put me in a very exclusive club.  I thought there were very few people who had read all 25,000 pages.  When we concentrate on a topic, spend a lot of time on a topic, we can come to feel we are experts in that field.  I did come to think (privately) that I was one of the world's most informed on those 25,000 pages of OARDEC documents.  But it didn't make me an RS.  When it came to covering what those OARDEC documents said, and the conclusions genuine RS stated about them, my obligation, as a policy compliant contributor, was to rely on what the genuine RS wrote, and when their conclusions were at odds with my own conclusions, keep my own conclusions to myself.

 * I think I did an okay job at that. I make no apologies over expecting the same kind of effort from you to keep your personal opinion from influending what goes into article space.

 * The passage that concerned you doesn't even have anything to do with Mjolnir.

 * With regard to the Veteran's Authority including it in the choice of tombstone... okay, that is mildly interesting.  Did you include that in the article?  With a good RS it could be included in the article.

 * I brought up WP:DUE/WP:UNDUE. If RS are writing about Mjolnir in the context of its use by neo-nazi, skinheads, white supremacists, and they aren't really writing about it in the context of VA headstone choices, doesn't DUE imply the use by neo-nazis merits more coverage than, say, its use as a VA approved headstone?

 * Was it your intent to mock Angeli, to imply he was voicing incoherent political positions, and should be ignored? Well, if Angeli was a mere blogger, scribbling a blog in his mother's basement, that practically no one read, his political, philosophical and spiritual opinions would be beneath notice, for us.  But, the situation here is that multiple RS have made the effort to explain his use of the Mjolnir symbolism to their readers.  It is the RS that make his use of Mjolnir relevant here, not his own interpretation, which may very well be incoherent.  Geo Swan (talk) 16:49, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Rewrite incoming
Despite its visibility, this article is currently largely in a poor state, a far cry from the quality of English Wikiepdia's Thor and Thor-related articles (compare many of the well-developed articles listed at Template:Þórr, which carefully outline primary sources and chart discussion by scholars). I'll start preparing a rewrite over the next few days that will bring it to that level of quality. I qill post a link when I've made progress. :bloodofox: (talk) 05:13, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

 * I would very much appreciate if you could possibly neutralize the taint that is afflicting this part of our common Scandinavian cultural heritage. As you can see in the graph the interest grew suddenly after Trump's shameful attack on the United States Capitol. The White supremacists are doing what the Nazis did, tainting something that has nothing to do with them. Winge's painting of Thor was once a liberal statement against ignorance, now it is being interpreted in ways it was never intended.--Berig (talk) 22:06, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

 * I figure the best way to deflect the efforts of, for example, neo-Nazi groups who hope to co-opt this stuff is by producing the best possible entry on the topic—drawing only from the best possible sources—making it much more difficult for these groups to present their personal interpretations as fact to the general public (and the media). I regret that this article wasn't in a better place when it received so many views recently (fortunately the site's Yggdrasil and valknut articles are much better). For now, I'm dropping my ongoing work on Ægir to focus on getting a new draft together for this page. As of now I am most of the way through the eddic poetry corpus. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:40, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

 * Good, thank you. I agree that that's the best strategy. I'm afraid I can't help, for a number of reasons including increasing conflict of interest, except by possibly providing page refs to de Vries and some other old scholars that may also have ready access to. Yngvadottir (talk) 02:01, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

 * You are all most welcome to assist! One thing that would be really helpful would be a table listing as many archeaological finds of the hammer as possible, which could include data about where it was found, its material, and in where it is today. :bloodofox: (talk) 21:02, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

 * and, I've made some progress with the rewrite here. Looking for databases outlining all hammers found to date, I encountered something I wasn't aware of: Eitri - the Norse Artifacts Database by Katherine Beard. Beard produced this database in parallel with her MA thesis, which is focused on Mjölnir and will make for a great place to draw current references and data for the rewrite. :bloodofox: (talk) 07:02, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Launched
I've launched a rewrite of the article that should provide a much stronger foundation moving forward. Please edit (especially any typos you find!) and expand. , care to sort through the etymology? I've just pulled the data in the current "etymology" section directly from Simek and I realize that entry may have been written in the 1970s.

Please note that there's plenty more that can be added to this rewrite—for example, it'd be great to have a lot more data on the amulets and their precursors, sections about potential Nordic Bronze Age depictions, discussion about comparative material from Indo-European studies, and the potential Sámi depictions. The saga corpus also isn't yet addressed in the "attestations" section. Beard's 2019 database and MA thesis (supervised by Gunnell) were extremely helpful for producing a rewrite in a timely manner and features discussion of all these topics. :bloodofox: (talk) 07:56, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Add reference to Marvel comics in the popular culture section
At the moment the only reference to the Marvel comics, which represent one of the dominant occurrences of Mjölnir in the popular consciousness, is in the disambiguation. This probably ought to be changed by someone who knows more about both. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.76.8.71 (talk) 12:35, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Mjölnir


text:
Talk:Nicholas I of Montenegro

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Leka, Crown Prince of Albania (born 1939) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 14:30, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

"Nicholas, Prince of Montenegro" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Nicholas, Prince of Montenegro and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 September 17 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Anotherwikipedianuser (talk) 16:21, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Nicholas I of Montenegro


text:
La Joute

La Joute ("the joust") (1969) is a public sculptural installation by Quebec artist Jean-Paul Riopelle, a member of the Automatiste movement. It is currently located in Place Jean-Paul-Riopelle in the Quartier international de Montréal.

Design
The ensemble of bronze sculptures contains a central fountain surrounded by a number of freestanding abstract animal and human figures inside and outside the fountain basin.

The fountain operates on a kinetic sequence that takes about 32 minutes to complete. It begins a few minutes before the half-hour, every hour from 7 to 11 p.m. during the summer. The sequence starts when the fountain jet expands to form a dome over the sculptures. Then at the back end of the park the grates on the ground start to mist. The 12 grates each mist, one after the other in sequence, taking about 90 seconds to sequence from one to another until they reach the fountain. After about 18 minutes, machines inside the fountain start to produce a particularly dense cloud. The fountain jet then turns into a dribble. On the hour, nozzles in a ring surrounding the central sculpture within the basin shoot up jets of natural gas through the water; these are lit by flame sources installed in the daises of some of the sculptures, producing a dramatic ring of flame. The flame lasts for about seven minutes. The fountain itself stops. The misting stops, and then the fire is "doused" by the fountain which has restarted. The mist sequence, without the fire in the fountain, occurs every hour throughout the day.

Relocation
The statue was formerly located in the Parc Olympique, in the Hochelaga-Maisonneuve district of Montreal. Its relocation to the Place Jean-Paul-Riopelle during the redevelopment of the Quartier international de Montréal in 2003 provoked controversy and outrage from residents of Hochelaga-Maisonneuve, who claimed that moving it from the Parc Olympique deprived it of the context required for its full meaning as an homage to sport.

Those who supported the move, including the Quebec government, Riopelle's heirs, and the artwork's owner, the Musée d'art contemporain de Montréal, argued that moving it would allow a proper homage to Riopelle, and that it would allow the work to be more widely seen and exhibited as the artist intended, whereas its previous location had been inaccessible and had not included the fountain or fire elements Riopelle designed.

In September 2013 a program of renovation was announced, but with no schedule.

title: La Joute


text:
Stanisław Poniatowski (1754–1833)

Prince Stanisław Poniatowski (November 23, 1754 – February 13, 1833) was a Polish nobleman, politician, diplomat, a member of the wealthy Poniatowski family and a nephew of the last king of Poland, Stanisław II Augustus. He was the official Commander of the Royal Foot Guards regiment directly responsible for the monarch's life as well as the Grand Treasurer of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (1784–1791) and Governor of Stryj, which made him a key figure in Poland during the Age of Enlightenment.

Early life
Stanisław was the son of Apolonia Ustrzycka and Polish Prince Kazimierz Poniatowski (1721–1800). His mother, a daughter of Bazyli Ustrzycki, castellan of Przemyśl, was the widow of Prince Antoni Lubomirski. His father was Deputy Chamberlain of Lithuania (1742–1773), Commander of the Royal Army and a knight of the prestigious Order of the White Eagle, awarded on August 3, 1744 in Warsaw. His father was the brother of the last King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania, Stanisław II Augustus, who saw in his nephew a possible successor and heir to the throne of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth. Both Kazimierz and the monarch had been born to Konstancja Czartoryska, (1700–1759), related by marriage to a russophilic Polish–Lithuanian family, the Czartoryskis.

Career
Poniatowski became a knight of the White Eagle on December 8, 1773. Very well educated and particularly interested in the finances and economy of the country as well as in the arts, Poniatowski was not popular amongst szlachta (the Polish nobility), who found him arrogant and competitive.

Poniatowski commissioned about 2500 engraved gems from a group of gem-engravers in Rome who turned to classical literature for inspiration. In 1830, Poniatowski published a summary catalogue of his gems, Catalogue des Pierres Gravees Antiques de S.A. le Prince Stanislas Poniatowski, which contained elaborate descriptions. The collection of Poniatowski gems was sold at a Christie's auction in 1839 and has been dispersed ever since.

Following the partitions of Poland, Poniatowski emigrated to Italy, living first in Rome, then in Florence. He is the ancestor of the present members of the Poniatowski family bearing the title of Fürst Poniatowski or Principe Poniatowski di Monterotondo.

Personal life
While some sources state that he married Cassandra Luci (Rome, 1785 - Florence, 1863) in 1806, it is unlikely because she was already married to Vicenzo Venturini Benloch. Together, Cassandra and Stanisław were the parents of:

 * Isabella Luci (Rome, 1806 - Florence, 1896), married firstly in January/February 1821 to Count Prospero Bentivoglio (- 1821), without children, and secondly in 1822 to Count Zanobi di Ricci (- October 16, 1844), their daughter was Marie-Anne Walewska. Then, she married Marquess Filippo De Piccolellis.
 * Carlo Luci (Rome, 1808 - Florence, 1887), later Poniatowski, legitimized in 1847, made Conte di Monterotondo by the Grand Duke of Tuscany on November 20, 1847, Principe di Monterotondo by the Grand Duke of Tuscany and Prince Poniatowski by the Emperor of Austria both on November 19, 1850 (Rome, August 4, 1808 - San Pancrazio, July 23, 1887), married in Florence, September 21, 1831 to Elisa Napoleone Montecatini (Lucca, November 4, 1808 - Lucca, April 18, 1893), without children.
 * Costanza Luci (Rome, 1811 - Florence, 1851), married to Count Daniele Zappi.
 * Giuseppe Michele Saverio Francesco Giovanni Luci (Rome, February 21, 1816 - London, July 4, 1873), later known as Józef Michał Poniatowski, legitimized in 1847, made Conte di Monterotondo by the Grand Duke of Tuscany on November 20, 1847, Principe di Monterotondo by the Grand Duke of Tuscany and Prince Poniatowski by the Emperor of Austria both on November 19, 1850. He was a composer and a singer, and was sent to Paris as plenipotentiary by Grand Duke of Tuscany Leopold II. In 1834, he married Countess Matilda Perotti (1814 - February 1875) in Florence, and they had one son, Stanislaus August Friedrich Joseph Telemach Luci.
 * Michele Luci (Rome, 1816 - Florence, 1864), founder of Imparziale fiorentino.

Descendants
Among his descendants are the Princes Poniatowski of the Empire of Austria and Counts and the Princes of Monterotondo in the Grand Duchy of Tuscany

title: Stanisław Poniatowski (1754–1833)


text:
Paul McStay

Paul Michael Lyons McStay,   (born 22 October 1964) is a Scottish former professional footballer who spent his entire career with Celtic, making his senior debut in 1982 and retiring in 1997. He captained both Scotland and Celtic at all age levels. He was capped 76 times for his country and scored nine goals. He helped Celtic win three league titles, the last in 1988.

Club career
As a youth, McStay first came to prominence in June 1980 in a schoolboy international match when Scotland played England at Wembley. Then 15, McStay captained the Scotland team, scored two goals and was awarded Man of the Match after Scotland ran out 5–4 winners.

McStay signed for Celtic aged sixteen from Celtic Boys Club in 1981. He made his first team debut on 23 January 1982 in a 4–0 win over Queen of the South in the Scottish Cup. A week later on 30 January, he made his first league appearance in 3–1 win over Aberdeen at Pittodrie. He scored the third goal, taking a pass from George McCluskey, running through the Aberdeen defence and striking a left foot shot past Jim Leighton in goal.

Season 1982–83 saw the young midfielder establish himself as a first team regular, and he picked up his first winners medal on 4 November 1982 in Celtic's 2–1 win over Rangers in the League Cup Final. His performances resulted in media speculation that Inter Milan were considering making a £2 million bid to take him to Italy, a rumour that was emphatically dismissed by the Celtic chairman, Desmond White.

McStay continued to progress at Celtic, and he scored Celtic's equaliser in the 1984 Scottish Cup Final against Aberdeen to take the match into extra time. However, Celtic had played most of the match with 10 men after Roy Aitken was sent off in the first half, and Aberdeen scored in extra time to win 2–1.

In December 1987, during Celtic's centenary season, McStay signed a five-year contract at Celtic. He went on to enjoy his finest season, winning both the SPFA and Scottish Football Writers player of the year awards as the club won a League and Cup double in 1988.

When Roy Aitken left Celtic Park in 1990, McStay was appointed club captain, a position he retained until his retirement following the 1996–97 season. In his time with the club, Celtic won the League title three times, the Scottish Cup four times and the League Cup once. Although the second half of McStay's career coincided with a time when Celtic performed poorly and struggled financially, in 2002 he was voted a member of Celtic's greatest ever team by the club's fans. He is also a member of the Scotland Football Hall of Fame, which honours the best players to play in Scotland and is located in the Scottish Football Museum.

International career
In 1982 he captained Scotland national U19 team to victory in the UEFA European Under-18 Championship, the only major trophy won by any Scotland national team. He captained each of the Scotland teams from under-16 level through under-18, under-20, under-21 and senior level. McStay made his full international debut for Scotland in 1983. He represented Scotland 76 times, including appearances at two World Cups in 1986 and 1990, during a 14-year international career. McStay was also selected for two UEFA European Championships in 1992 and 1996, but withdrew from the latter because of an ankle injury.

Personal life
In 2010, McStay moved to live in Sydney, Australia with his wife Anne Marie and their six children. He now runs Maestro Sports, a startup software company specialising in sport coaching and management. McStay attempted to raise $100,000 AUD to fund an autobiography through the crowdfunding platform Kickstarter.

McStay's great-uncles Jimmy and Willie McStay were former Celtic captains, and his brothers Willie and Raymond also played for Celtic. Their father John worked as a scout for the club.

One of his sons, Chris, has played football for Sutherland Sharks and Rockdale Ilinden in Australia and for Clyde in Scotland. His nephew John (Willie's son) played with Celtic Boys Club before moving onto Motherwell under-19s and later played for Ayr United as a defender before becoming a Celtic academy coach.

His cousin Jock McStay played for Raith Rovers during the 1990s, and Jock's son Jonny played at Junior level in the 2010s.

International

 * Scores and results list Scotland's goal tally first, score column indicates score after each McStay goal.

Honours
Celtic
 * Scottish Premier Division: 1981–82, 1985–86, 1987–88; runner-up: 1982–83, 1983–84, 1984–85, 1986–87, 1995–96, 1996–97
 * Scottish Cup: 1984–85, 1987–88, 1988–89, 1994–95; runner-up 1983–84, 1989–90
 * Scottish League Cup: 1982–83; runner-up 1983–84, 1986–87 1990–91, 1994–95
 * Glasgow Cup: 1981–82

Scotland
 * Rous Cup: 1985; runner-up: 1986, 1989

Scotland U18
 * UEFA Youth Championship: 1982

Scotland U16
 * Victory Shield: 1980
 * Dentyne Trophy: 1980

Individual
 * SFWA Footballer of the Year: 1987–88
 * SPFA Players' Player of the Year: 1987–88
 * SPFA Young Player of the Year: 1982–83
 * Scotland national football team roll of honour : 1990
 * Scottish Football Hall of Fame: 2010
 * Ballon d'Or: 1984 (18th place)

title: Paul McStay


text:
Margaritasite

Margaritasite is a yellow, caesium-bearing mineral in the carnotite group. Its chemical formula is (Cs, K, H3O)2(UO2)2V2O8·H2O and its crystal system is monoclinic (space group P21/a ).

Name and discovery
It was first described in 1982 from the Margaritas uranium deposit in the Peña Blanca district of the municipality of Aldama, in the Mexican state of Chihuahua.

title: Margaritasite


text:
Talk:Incantation

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 August 2018 and 18 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Castlegate22.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 00:22, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Untitled
Added a literary analysis and some collections of historical incantations. Left the first paragraph alone, although it's tempting to make a section about fictional magic and move the Harry Potter stuff there. (and then, one could also talk about Piers Anthony and Tolkien, both of him involve incantations in some of their fictional magic) --Peccavimus 02:39, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Incantations are a way to cast a spell. Enchantments are a variety of spell that can be cast without incantations. Why is "enchantment" redirecting here? Goldfritha 03:58, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Because, linguistically and etymologically, the words are related and derive from the same root. In fact, an enchantment is by definition the magical effect of an incantation. There are many other ways of casting a magical spell, in folklore and fiction, but the method of enchantment is, specifically, incantation. It's what the word literally means at its root. 72.49.160.86 (talk) 08:10, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Took out some repeated material from Enchanted section. This article seems to have some sort of potential, but is incredibly repetitive. Maybe somebody can fix it up? TheVaultDweller (talk) 20:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Incantation and enchantment have absolutely nothing to do with each other except that they both come from the subject "magic". Makes no sense at all to have an article about both. --84.178.78.86 (talk) 10:26, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, they do. Linguistically, they are the same - see my note above. This is already explained in the article, but in case you are unaware, the French language is a modern descendant of Latin - the French enchant is simply the surviving form of the Latin incantare. In a precisely analagous way, "charm" is derived from Latin carmen. 72.49.160.86 (talk) 08:25, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

I find the article simple and clear and sufficiently informed for a stub. Incantation (ritual soothsaying) and enchantment (pleasurable state) have a lot in common, if only their common Latin etymology.

Goldfritha's comment reaches much to far for this article. The distinction she sees is of a much greater nuance than that article permits in its current state.

I'd have liked Peccavimus to deliniate more precisely between anthropological research on historical evidenced practices and texts of fiction.

Had I had the examples I'd throw in some shamanic stuff from Caucasus and some Voodoo things, but I don't. The real fun starts when we look at the Christian Mass as a magic function, particularly with reference to Eucharist. There is also potential for urban incantations, particularly in sub-cultures but also mass mediated characters; and here I'd add the plethora of objects that serve magical and propitiatory needs. Hope I'll gather the info needed for the expansion of the article but can't promise anything. Cheers! :) Andipacurar (talk) 11:43, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Charm, Enchantment, Spell
We have WP:DISAMBiguation pages for Charm, Enchantment, and Spell (and no primary topic for any of them).

Spell (paranormal) is one sibling article.

Charm in this sense directs to that spell article.

The lead sentence of this article -- "An incantation or enchantment is a charm or spell created using words." -- implies that charm and spell are more general because they may not be linguistic. But the Spell (paranormal) does not support the distinction clearly or well, maybe not at all.

Enchantment in this sense directs here, which fits the lead sentence implication that incantation and enchantment are linguistic special cases. I think that shows poor judgment. So did some editors, years ago, the above discussion shows.

Magical formula and magic word may be siblings of this article, or need refinement to avoid confusion as siblings. Magical phrase redirects to a "Magical language" section of the general article Magic (paranormal). That section identifies Spell and Word main articles, not this one.

--P64 (talk) 19:37, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

 * According to Incantation (disambiguation), "An incantation [links here -Ed.] is a formula of words sung or spoken during a ceremony or ritual." But the text of this article concerns only fictional enchantment/charm/spell. --P64 (talk) 20:40, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

 * I guess "incantation" is more restrictive and refers just to spoken magic. If you say "lucky charm" that would be a tangible object, a talisman. In modern use "spell" or "spell-casting" would probably include rune magic or use of Magic circles, pentagrams or Mr. Potter waving the wand without saying anything. --Kiyoweap (talk) 13:25, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Web source in Spanish
I have a question for this article: Is this website and a reliable source to have on here?https://hechizoseternos.com/Castlegate22 (talk) 19:12, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

"Vashikaran" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Vashikaran. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 June 25 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 🌸 1.Ayana 🌸 (talk) 18:51, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

.....
link to my own dimension 2001:D08:D8:D505:D7C:EECB:F354:5D98 (talk) 11:35, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Wrong link of Sim sa la bim
Can someone change the link to the right sim sa la bim? I'm not that skilled. 90.249.65.133 (talk) 19:09, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Incantation


text:
Jimmie Rodgers

James Charles Rodgers (September 8, 1897 – May 26, 1933) was an American singer-songwriter and musician who rose to popularity in the late 1920s. Widely regarded as the "Father of Country Music", he is best known for his distinctive yodeling. Rodgers was known as "The Singing Brakeman" and "America's Blue Yodeler". He has been cited as an inspiration by many artists, and he has been inducted into multiple halls of fame.

Originally from Meridian, Mississippi, Rodgers was the son of railroad worker Aaron Rodgers. During his early childhood, the family moved according to the needs of his father's employment, or Rodgers' own poor health. As a teenager, he was musically influenced by the diverse vaudeville shows that he often attended. At the age of 13, Rodgers won a local singing contest, and then traveled through the Southern United States with a medicine show. After his father took him back home to Meridian, Rodgers dropped out of school and joined the Mobile and Ohio Railroad, starting as a waterboy on his father's gang. He eventually became a brakeman, among other functions he performed. During his time working with different railroad companies, the singer further developed his musical style; he was influenced by the gandy dancers and their impromptu blues performances. Rodgers was diagnosed with tuberculosis in 1924. By 1927, he stopped working for the railroad as a result of his health and decided to focus on his music career.

In 1927, Rodgers joined the Tenneva Ramblers band, who at the time were working at a radio station. After the band was fired from their spot, they worked in different resorts in the Blue Ridge Mountains. There, Rodgers became aware of the field recordings that Victor Talking Machine Company's engineer Ralph Peer was to undertake in Bristol, Tennessee. During what later became known as the Bristol sessions, Rodgers recorded solo, as he was deserted by his band after a disagreement. A second session with Rodgers was later arranged in Camden, New Jersey, at the singer's own insistence; that session produced "Blue Yodel No. 1 (T for Texas)". The song became a success, propelling Rodgers to national fame and beginning his recording career with the label, during which he produced over 100 songs.

Early life
The Rodgers family migrated to the United States from England and Ireland before the American Revolution. They settled around the Appalachian Mountains, and later moved to the Southern and Western United States. Both of Jimmie Rodgers' grandfathers served in the Confederate States Army during the American Civil War. After the war, his maternal grandfather settled in Meridian, Mississippi, while his paternal grandfather settled around Geiger, Alabama. Rodgers' father, Aaron, worked for the Mobile and Ohio Railroad. He eventually became a foreman, and, in 1884, he married Eliza Bozeman. The couple lived in the railroad work camps as Aaron Rodgers moved through different locations along the line. The Rodgers family then temporarily settled in the community of Pine Springs, north of Meridian.

Charles James "Jimmie" Rodgers was born on September 8, 1897. His place of birth is disputed: Meridianwhich Rodgers often called his home townis most often listed in records, while Rodgers would later sign a document that named Geiger, Alabama. Incapable of living in the unsanitary conditions of the camps, Rodgers' mother decided to stay in Pine Springs while her husband frequently worked for long periods and returned home when he could. After two miscarriages, her health began to fail. She became sick and Aaron Rodgers quit his job at the Mobile and Ohio Railroad and started farming to be closer to his wife. She died in 1903. Then-six-year-old Jimmie Rodgers was deeply affected by his mother's death. Rodgers was sent, along with his brother Talmage, to live with relatives of his father in Scooba, Mississippi, and later to Geiger. Rodgers attended school irregularly during his early childhood; he did not attend at all for a time following the death of his mother. After the family moved to Lowndes County, Mississippi, he and his brother went to school in the town of Artesia. Rodgers and his brother often arrived late to school or missed it altogether as a result of road conditions and other distractions. Rodgers often missed classes during the winter due to his tendency to suffer from colds and respiratory issues.

His father remarried and the family moved to Meridian, where Rodgers was enrolled at the local high school. He and his siblings had problems with their new step-mother. When his father returned to work for the railroad, Rodgers again rarely went to school. Instead, he and his brother Jake went to the local theaters to see vaudeville shows and watch movies. As a result, Rodgers became interested in the entertainment industry. To support his expenditures, he sold newspapers and molasses, or he panhandled. In 1906, he was sent to live with his older brother Talmage and their aunt Dora Bozeman in Pine Springs, while his brother Jake was sent to other relatives. The routine of the Bozeman household grounded Rodgers with chores and he spent most of his free time outdoors. He started to attend school regularly and he was further assisted by his teacher, who rented a room at his aunt's boarding house. Rodgers received most of his schooling while he lived there until he went back to Meridian in 1911.

Upon his return to Meridian, he went back to the streets. He frequented the barbershop of his uncle Tom Bozeman and he often slept during the daytime in the upstairs apartment. He organized a neighborhood carnival that played the nearby towns. Rodgers' appearances made enough money to pay for the sheets he used as a tent. He then organized a second show, which he financed with his father's money, unbeknownst to him. Rodgers then won a contest at the local Elite Theater for his performance of the songs "Steamboat Bill" and "I Wonder Why Bill Bailey Don't Come Home". Following his success, Rodgers started to perform with a medicine show. He quit the show some weeks later as they reached Birmingham, Alabama, claiming the proprietor did not treat him well. At the age of thirteen, he started working for a tailor in West Blocton, Alabama, until, months later, his father took him back to Meridian with the intention of enrolling him at a new school. Soon after, his step-mother died. Instead of attending school, Rodgers followed his father to learn his profession with the working crews of the Mobile and Ohio Railroad.

Rodgers started working for the railroad as a waterboy for the black gandy dancer crews, who introduced him to the railroad jargon, their work songs, and banjo playing. Eventually, he became a baggage handler and then a brakeman. He moved often while working on the lines from Mississippi to Texas. In January 1917, he was introduced by a friend to Stella Kelly in Durant, Mississippi. At the time, he was moving between Jackson and New Orleans without a stable location. He maintained the lines, checked baggage and at times worked as a dishwasher at a local restaurant in Durant. He and Kelly married on April 6, 1917. The newlyweds left Durant after Rodgers' job as an apprentice mechanic failed to work out and moved to Louisville, Mississippi, where he again worked as a brakeman. After his marriage fell apart, Rodgers started working for the New Orleans and Northeastern Railroad (NO&NE). He spent time in both Meridian and New Orleans. Rodgers was fired from the NO&NE in 1920 and he worked odd jobs. In the early 1920s, he returned to work stints on the railway lines where he had previously worked, as well as on the Vicksburg, Shreveport and Pacific Railway. He worked mainly as a brakeman, but he also performed other functions, including flagman.

Music career
In 1924, Rodgers was diagnosed with tuberculosis at the age of 27. The disease affected his ability to perform his work and he chose to move with his wife and children to Arizona, following the medical advice of the time, which suggested high and dry places to ease the symptoms. Then, Rodgers moved to Asheville, North Carolina. As he worked less on the railroads and his foreman complained of his extended absences, he returned to performing music. Rodgers formed a jazz-style band that performed pop standards with the inclusion of horns and the piano accompaniment of his new wife Carrie McWilliams' sister, Elsie McWilliams. The group played on the road in tents, on city streets and in various other small locations without any commercial success. In 1927, Rodgers left his work on the railroad. In Asheville, he met the Grant Brothers, who led the mountain music string band the Tenneva Ramblers. Rodgers convinced the group to join him as the Jimmie Rodgers Entertainers, with him as the lead singer for a recurrent, unpaid spot he managed to obtain at WWNC. The band was composed of Rodgers (vocals and guitar), Claude Grant (vocals and guitar), Jack Grant (mandolin), Jack Pierce (fiddle) and, at times, Claude Sagle (banjo).

After the group was fired from the radio show, they found a job performing at a resort in the Blue Ridge Mountains. There, Rodgers heard of the upcoming field recordings that engineer Ralph Peer of the Victor Talking Machine Company was to undertake in Bristol, Tennessee, in search of local talent. Rodgers made an appointment for the band to record with Peer on August 4, 1927. Before the scheduled recording, the band had a dispute with the singer regarding the name to be used on the label of the recording. The Tenneva Ramblers then deserted Rodgers, who convinced Peer to record him alone with his guitar. Peer later commented that he considered Rodgers an individualist, who, due to his blues-leaning style, was incompatible with the sound of the Tenneva Ramblers band, which based its music around the use of fiddles. By the end of Rodgers' session, Peer felt that although he liked the singer, he could not sign him to the label as he was performing pop music that belonged to New York publishers, instead of the original tunes that Peer was scouting for. The session produced "The Soldier's Sweetheart", an adaptation of an old vaudeville tune with new lyrics by Rodgers, and a version of the showtune, "Sleep, Baby, Sleep".

After the session, Peer told Rodgers that he would contact him at a later date to hear new original material. Rodgers then moved with his family to Washington, D.C., and the record sold some copies. After a month of not hearing back from Peer, Rodgers decided to travel to New York City, where he checked into the Manger Hotel and called the producer to let him know that he was ready to undertake his next recording session. Impressed by Rodgers' boldness, Peer set an appointment for November 30, 1927, at Studio 1 of the Victor Talking Machine Company in Camden, New Jersey. The first few numbers that Rodgers tried did not appeal to Peer, as they were once again not original material. Rodgers then attempted a number he had been working on using yodeling, which Peer called "Blue Yodel".

When "The Soldier's Sweetheart" / "Sleep, Baby, Sleep" record started to sell well, Victor decided to advance the release of "Blue Yodel". In Washington, D.C., Rodgers worked a stint for the station WTTF with the backing of the "Jimmie Rodgers' Southerners", while he continued to make records for the label. He used the band for his recordings of "In the Jailhouse Now" and "The Brakeman's Blues", among others.

As 1928 progressed, "Blue Yodel" became a major success. The song marked the first of a series of blue yodels. The unknown origin of Rodgers' yodel has been attributed to several sources, including traditional alpine songs, its use by gandy dancers and its use in vaudeville and minstrel shows. The yodels presented a main character who often exaggerated his qualities as a lover, threatening other men who try to take his woman or declaring that he can easily find another one, and vocalizing verses that deal with promiscuity and violence, often using double entendres. With the release of further songs of the series,"Blue Yodel" was later renamed on the catalogs to "Blue Yodel No. 1 (T for Texas)". "Blue Yodel No. 1" became the singer's most successful recording, with over a million copies sold during his lifetime. Soon, Rodgers' show billed him as "America's Blue Yodeler".

Following the release of "If Brother Jack Were Here", Victor was threatened with a lawsuit by Joseph W. Stern & Co. for copyright infringement of their original composition "Mother Was a Lady". As a result, the label renamed the record and Peer began to carefully assess the material brought by Rodgers. The singer often arrived to the recording sessions short of material and he resorted to passing off old vaudeville and minstrel show songs as his own. After Peer rejected several songs, Rodgers contacted his sister-in-law, Elsie McWilliams, to help him with the composition of new material. Few of the songs credited to Rodgers were authored by himself; McWilliams wrote most of his Blue Yodels and Rodgers also hired amateur composers to write other songs. With McWilliams' help, he would also write compositions of his own, which she remarked Rodgers would not stop working on until they "sounded just right". With the sales of his records still improving after the release of "In the Jailhouse Now", Rodgers embarked on a tour of the United States: he appeared on the Southern Time circuit of Loews Theaters and the East Coast circuit of Publix Theaters. The pairing of "Blue Yodel No. 4 (California Blues)" / "Waiting for a Train" became popular due to the success of the flipside record. The recording would eventually become Rodgers' second best seller of his career, with a total of 365,000 copies sold during his lifetime.

In February 1929, Rodgers' health worsened. Against his doctor's consistent recommendations to rest, Rodgers proceeded with his tour. During a stop in Meridian, he suffered a fever. Rodgers intended to perform the show, but he collapsed on the dressing room floor shortly before its start. His doctor ordered an x-rayan uncommon procedure at the timeand determined that the singer was suffering from pulmonary tuberculosis, which affected his lungs. Cavities were found on the top of both lungs, while the bottom of his right lung showed pleurisy. As they traveled through Texas performing, Jimmie and Carrie Rodgers stopped in Kerrville. The town offered the dry air and mild weather that the medical authorities of the time considered necessary for the treatment of tuberculosis. Kerrville was home to multiple sanatoriums and a Veterans Hospital, which specialized in pulmonary disease. As Rodgers was badly affected by the weather in Washington, D.C., Meridian and Asheville, he decided to settle in Kerrville. The construction of his new home began in April 1929. With a total cost of approximately $20,000, he named it "Blue Yodeler's Paradise". With his move to Texas, Rodgers' on-stage attire changed. He had previously worn brakeman's working clothes, which he replaced with regular clothes and a cowboy hat. On June 14, 1929, he performed at the inaugural event of San Antonio's Majestic Theatre.

At the height of this career, in 1929, Rodgers made approximately $75,000 in royalties. After the Wall Street Crash that year, while his records continued to sell, his royalties dropped to approximately $60,000. "Waiting for a Train" continued to be popular, as the themes depicted in the song became commonplace in the lives of unemployed Americans during the Great Depression. Through a number of field recording sessionsmade as his schedule and tour allowed itRodgers increased his catalog. By November 1929, he had filmed The Singing Brakeman at the RCA Victor studios in Camden. Continuing his tour, in late February 1930, Rodgers collapsed again during a stop in Carthage, Mississippi. After he suffered a hemorrhage, Rodgers followed his doctor's advice and canceled his third appearance at the local movie house. Despite his condition, Rodgers then joined a four-month tour with daily appearances on Swain's Hollywood Follies. Rodgers and his musical troupe performed a total of 70 shows. With few of his recordings left to be released, Rodgers headed to Los Angeles to produce new material in June–July 1930. The sessions produced, among other numbers, "Blue Yodel no. 8, Mule Skinner Blues" and "Blue Yodel No. 9 (Standin' on the Corner)" featuring Louis Armstrong. Rodgers commissioned Ray Hall, at the time a prisoner at the Texas State Penitentiary, to help him write the song "T.B. Blues" after McWilliams refused to help. Rodgers recorded and released the composition in 1931.

In the summer of 1931, Rodgers recorded two sides with the Carter Family. That year, his health quickly deteriorated and his sales fell to an average of 30,000 copies per record as the Great Depression progressed. Meanwhile, his excessive expenditures forced him to sell his Kerrville home. "Rodgers' Puzzle Record", a compilation containing three recordings of the singer on one side, was released in England, India, and Australia in 1931. The same year, the singer accepted an offer to make appearances, when available, on San Antonio radio station KMAC's Tuesday show. When he was on tour, The Jimmie Rodgers Show played his Victor recordings. In April 1932, he renegotiated his contract with the label: Rodgers was to receive $25,000 for 24 sides to be released monthly, with the singer receiving $250  in advance payment per side.

Declining health and death
As his health condition worsened, Rodgers reduced his appearances on tour schedules from five days to one per venue; he also camped in a tent, which allowed for better air circulation. A number of concerts were cut short because of his condition, while others were cancelled. Until 1932, Peer took trips for field sessions to record Rodgers in Atlanta, New Orleans and Dallas. After RCA Victor ended his field sessions, Rodgers traveled to Camden, to record at the company's studios. Rodgers managed to produce ten sides, with regular rest between takes. Realizing the state of health of the singer, Peer arranged a follow-up session to create a backlog for the Rodgers catalog. Rodgers then returned to San Antonio, where he spent most of his time in bed until, in October of that year, he resumed his appearances on the local radio station. In the early winter of 1932, he made appearances throughout East Texas until he collapsed during a show in Lufkin and was placed in an oxygen tent. He then stopped performing at KMAC and stayed at home while he arranged a new recording session with Peer for May.

Rodgers and his personal nurse, Cora Bedell, traveled to New York City on the SS Mohawk and arrived on May 14, 1933. Peer left the singer to rest at his usual lodging, the Taft Hotel (earlier The Manger), for a few days before the session. Meanwhile, he assigned Rodgers a driver, known as Castro. The recording session, with Fred Maisch engineering, began on May 17 at RCA Victor's New York Studios at 153 E 24th Street. During the first two days, Rodgers recorded six numbers. The singer sat on an easy chair and was propped up by pillows to reach the microphone; the sessions were often paused as a result of his health. A new session was scheduled for May 24, 1933. Rodgers produced four songs and lay on a cot between takes. At the end of the day, he was helped into a cab and returned to his hotel. The next day, he recovered and then visited Coney Island with his driver. When returning, Rodgers decided to walk the last few blocks to the hotel, but he needed help to return to his room. He then suffered an intense cough, which eventually stopped. At midnight, he resumed coughing and began to hemorrhage. The hotel's doctor could not be found and Castro, who was out on an errand, returned too late to take him to a hospital. Rodgers fell in a coma and he died soon after.

Rodgers' pearl-gray casket was placed on a raised platform covered in lilies in a baggage car and taken back to Meridian by the Southern Railway on a trip operated by former workmates of Rodgers. On May 29, 1933, his body lay in state at the local Scottish Rite Cathedral. That afternoon, escorted by members of the Scottish Rite, the Hamasa Shrine Temple and the Knights of Pythias, his body was buried at Oak Grove Cemetery. During his lifetime, Rodgers reinvigorated the deflated sales record market for RCA Victor, and, despite the drop of sales during the depression, his records continued to sell well. At the time of his death, his sales represented 10% of the total for the label.

Style and image
Rodgers recalled his earliest memories of playing the guitar upon returning from picking cotton during his childhood. Although he performed with the instrument for many years, he only knew a few chords, which he complemented with a flatpicking technique. As he worked on the railroads through the late 1910s and the 1920s, he developed his style of music and singing. His material was based on classic Anglo-Celtic storytelling and ballad singing and black blues heavily influenced him. Ethnomusicologist Norm Cohen defined five categories for the 112 recordings that make up Rodgers' catalog: "19th century sentimental ballads", vaudevillian novelty songs, blues songs, traditional folk songs and "contemporary hillbilly songs". Rodgers' releases included collaborations with artists ranging from jazz performers to Hawaiian musicians.

Instead of the 3/4 time present in traditional alpine folk music, Rodgers' yodel featured a 4/4 time. Rodgers developed his yodel through his early music career; he was likely influenced by several vaudevillian performers or by the recordings and live performances of Emmett Miller. From the gandy dancers, Rodgers learned to elongate or shorten words to fit the metric of a song. He also carried a banjo or a guitar with him as he worked on the railroads. His live performances and recordings included the use of spoken remarks between verses to encourage his musicians, or exclamations when he played alone. Additionally, Rodgers developed a train whistle noise, which he made with the back of his throat through a mixture of a yodel and a whistle.

During his early appearances, Rodgers donned a bowler hat with a suit and a tie in the style of vaudevillian performers. When he was later billed as "The Singing Brakeman", Rodgers added railroad worker attire to his stage wardrobe. After he moved to Texas, he started to wear cowboy hats and western clothes, similar to the singing cowboys which were becoming popular in Western films. Rodgers would ultimately decide which clothes he would wear for a performance according to the audience he was expecting.

Personal life
Rodgers married Stella Kelly on May 1, 1917, when they were both 19 years old. They separated soon after due to what Kelly later described as Rodgers' tendency to procrastinate and drink, and his lack of ambition. She believed that Rodgers spent too much money and that by playing music he "fool away his time and money". After two years of living apart, their divorce became final in November 1919. Rodgers then married Carrie Williamson on April 7, 1920. Their first daughter, Anita, was born in January 1921. June, their second child, was born in 1923, but she died in December of that year. To return in time for her funeral and Christmas, Rodgers had to pawn his banjo. Both of his wives complained of Rodgers' excessive expenditures, and later his lavish lifestyle. Rodgers resorted to drinking to ease the pain caused by his tuberculosis.

On June 9, 1932, Rodgers lost a paternity lawsuit to his former wife Stella. She alleged that Rodgers was the father of her daughter, Kathryn Rodgers, who was born in February 1918. Although there was no conclusive evidence that Rodgers had slept with Kelly at the time of the child's conception, judge Edgar Vaught held that she was conceived in legal wedlock. Rodgers was ordered to pay $50 monthly in child support until Kathryn reached 18 years of age. After Rodgers' death, the monthly support from his estate stopped when Stella re-married. Kathryn Rodgers died soon after, in 1938.

Rodgers was a Freemason. He was inducted to the order in Meridian on August 9, 1920. In 1930, he joined the Elks lodge. In 1931, he reached the rank of Master Mason in Meridian. That year, he was moved to the San Antonio Scottish Rite Cathedral and received the local degree. He was also associated with the Alzafar Temple. In 1931, Rodgers was invited to Austin, Texas, and named an honorary Texas Ranger. To commemorate the occasion, the singer would later release the song "The Yodeling Ranger".

Influence
Rodgers is considered the "Father of Country Music". The Country Music Hall of Fame inducted Rodgers among the inaugural class of 1961. According to the Hall of Fame, Rodgers "brought to the emerging genre of 'hillbilly music' a distinctive, colorful personality and a rousing vocal style" that "created and defined the role of the singing star in country music". The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inducted Rodgers as an early influence with the class of 1986. Rodgers was inducted by Jerry Wexler, as the Hall of Fame determined that the genre "owes an immeasurable debt" to the singer, and that, despite being a country music singer, "his fusion of blues, Appalachian ballads and spirituals was an early framework for rock and roll" that influenced "everyone from Bob Dylan to Lynyrd Skynyrd". The Blues Hall of Fame wrote about Rodgers induction: "His reworkings of the blues not only helped popularize the music with white audiences but were also performed by many singers from the African American community that produced the blues that inspired Rodgers in the first place". Rodgers was the first artist inducted to the Songwriters Hall of Fame in 1970 for his influence in artists of "every genre" through music that "fused hillbilly, gospel, blues, jazz, pop and mountain folk music into timeless American standards". That same year, he was inducted to the Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame. The entry on Rodgers remarked on his "undying" influence on multiple generations of musicians. He was also inducted into the Alabama Music Hall of Fame and the Blue Ridge Music Hall of Fame in 1993 and 2018 respectively.

For Encyclopædia Britannica, Rodgers' legacy made him "one of the principal figures in the emergence of the country and western style of popular music". Rolling Stone magazine placed Rodgers at number 11 on its 100 Greatest Country Artists of All Time list, and at number 88 on their 200 Greatest Singers of All Time list. Allmusic has described Rodgers as "the first nationally known star of country music", noted his influence on later musicians and declared that the singer "affected the history of country music by making it a viable, commercially popular medium".

Country singers Gene Autry and Jimmie Davis, as well as western swing singer Tommy Duncan, were heavily influenced by Rodgers. Autry, Davis and Duncan recorded multiple songs of his repertoire, including yodeling tracks, until they changed their styles to avoid being deemed imitators. As a teenager, Hank Snow heard Rodgers' "Moonlight and Skies" on the radio. Snow started to imitate Rodgers' guitar playing and singing style, and he would later credit him as his one major influence. "Moonlight and Skies" was one of his most popular songs in many parts of the country. Ernest Tubb also considered Rodgers to be his greatest influence. Early in his career, Tubb kept a picture of Rodgers, which at one point became worn out. He then decided to call Rodgers' widow to obtain a new copy. Carrie Rodgers invited him and his family to her home. Eventually, she decided to help Tubb with his career: they recorded a duet of the tribute song "We Miss Him When the Evening Shadows Fall" and Carrie presented Tubb with Rodgers' guitar as a gift. Robert Johnson's step-sister, Annye, remembered Rodgers as their favorite country singer. Johnson played "Waiting for a Train" and imitated Rodgers' yodel. Other artists that have acknowledged influence by Rodgers include Lefty Frizzell, Roy Rogers, Eddy Arnold, Jerry Lee Lewis, Johnny Cash, Willie Nelson, Merle Haggard, Bob Dylan, George Harrison, Lynyrd Skynyrd, John Fahey, and Alison Krauss. Rodgers' appearance on The Singing Brakeman is considered one of the first music videos.

In South Africa, Rodgers' records were distributed by Regal Zonophone Records. In his autobiography, Down Second Avenue, writer Es'kia Mphahlele described about his memories of young men bringing gramophones and Rodgers' records from Pretoria, and how his music could be heard on Christmas Day throughout his village. Rodgers' records sold particularly well in Durban, a city mostly populated by the Zulu. In 1930, singers Griffiths Motsieloa and Ignatius Monare recorded their version of a blue yodel in Zulu language, entitled "Aubuti Nkikho", in London. In 1932, William Mseleku recorded "Eku Hambeni" and "Sifikile Tina". The songs were inspired by Rodgers' style and recorded in Zulu. Rodgers influenced several Zimbabwean acoustic guitarists of the 1940s, who had heard records imported from South Africa, including Chinemberi, Mattaka, Jacob Mhungu and Jeremiah Kainga. Local artists developed a two-finger playing style that used the thumb and first finger to emulate the sound of the singer and they frequently used yodels. Recordings of Rodgers were taken to the Great Rift Valley of Kenya by English missionaries who lived among the Kipsigis people. The tribe sang about Rodgers in a traditional song recorded in 1950 by ethnomusicologist Hugh Tracey who later named it "Chemirocha III".

Tributes
In January 1935, Grand Ole Opry artists the Delmore Brothers and Uncle Dave Macon stopped on their way to New Orleans to visit Rodgers' brother Talmage and his wife in Meridian to play a tribute song called "Blue Railroad Train". That same year, Rodgers' widow published a biographical book: My Husband, Jimmie Rodgers. On May 16, 1953, the first Jimmie Rodgers Memorial Festival was held in Meridian. The festival featured appearances by country music singers and other entertainers who were influenced by Rodgers, as well as his family members. The festival was celebrated in an intermittent fashion until it became a recurring event starting in 1972. Attendees at the first event included Carrie Rodgers, Elsie McWilliams, Ralph Peer, Hugh L. White, Frank G. Clement, railroad representatives, Mary Jones (the wife of engineer Casey Jones) and Lillie Williams (Hank Williams' mother). Several performers who were influenced by Rodgers were present, including 25 Grand Ole Opry artists led by Ernest Tubb and Hank Snow. The show attracted a crowd of 30,000. A granite monument to Rodgers was unveiled, as well as a static locomotive as a memorial to the deceased railroad workers of Meridian.

On May 24, 1978, the United States Postal Service issued a 13-cent commemorative stamp honoring Rodgers, the first in its long-running Performing Arts Series. The stamp was designed by Jim Sharpe and depicted Rodgers with brakeman's outfit and guitar, standing in front of a locomotive giving his famous "two thumbs up" gesture. The 1982 film Honkytonk Man, directed by and starring Clint Eastwood, was loosely based on Rodgers' life. In 1997, Bob Dylan put together a tribute compilation of major artists covering Rodgers' songs, The Songs of Jimmie Rodgers: A Tribute. The artists included Bono, Alison Krauss & Union Station, Jerry Garcia, Dickey Betts, Dwight Yoakam, Aaron Neville, John Mellencamp, Willie Nelson and others. In 2004, Steve Forbert's tribute album Any Old Time was nominated for a Grammy Award for Best Traditional Folk Album. In 2007, Rodgers was honored with a marker on the Mississippi Blues Trail in his hometown of Meridian, the first outside of the Mississippi Delta. In May 2010, a marker on the Mississippi Country Music Trail was erected near Rodgers' grave site. The Elton John and Leon Russell 2010 collaboration The Union featured the tribute "Jimmie Rodgers' Dream". In 2013, a North Carolina historical marker was dedicated on Haywood Street in Asheville.

title: Jimmie Rodgers


text: Category:The Rockefellers

title: Category:The Rockefellers