text:
Talk:Ajam

On the literal meaning of Ajam in modern standard Arabic
I found this page accidentally while looking for a Wikipedia entry on Fouad Ajami. As a native speaker, I dispute the first couple of lines in the page that suggest the word Ajam is used as a derogatory term in modern arabic. There is indeed a citation that I cannot dispute, but the citation is a working paper by the Cambridge Programme for Security in International Society (C-SIS) on "The Mindset of Iraq's Security Apparatus". Now I actually liked this working paper, but the views perpetuated, encouraged or even influenced by Iraq's brutal security apparatus is hardly an appropriate source to define the word! To my knowledge of the language, Ajam is indeed used to mean foreigners, strangers, "those who don't speak Arabic" and variations thereof in modern Arabic.

I have no doubt that some people, for instance the racist xenophobes in Iraq's ex-security apparatus used it in a derogatory fashion. The C-SIS working paper indicates that they referred to Iran as Al'adu Al'ajami (the Ajam Enemy) for instance. But perhaps a section on the misuse of the word for derogatory purposes is in order? As opposed as considering it part of the definition in Arabic, which is the current state of the article. Any comments and/or objections? --H.Perowne 20:55, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

So is this what they're being told? Even a little history gives perspective to this babble, but you can't edit this into sense. Wetman 23:37, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC) Ajam( Persian or Iranian) it drives from word JAM, Yima ,Yam,jam,zam alls means cold clean water.A Persian folk etymology derives the word from the name of an ancient Persian king, Jam Shid; The Persian name for Yima In Iranian mythology, the first man, who  became sovereign of the abode of the blessed. Jamshid as a culture hero, he introduced the cult of vine and other arts to mankind, appears in the Shahnamah and avesta. In the Middle East, it commonly refers to Persians, while in al-Andalus it referred to speakers of Romance languages - becoming "Aljamiado" in Spanish in reference to Arabic-script writing of those languages - and in West Africa, Ajami similarly refers to the writing of local languages such as Hausa and Fulani in the Arabic alphabet. in East Africa Ajami and Ajamo refer to Afro- shirazi people whom had emigrated from Persian gulf and oman(homana) to East Africa and have a root of persian origion.Uajemi (Swahili variant): from the word 'Ajam which was used by Arabs for naming Persians. The Arabic word 'Ajam in East Africa means "the ones who comes from Iran especialy persian from Fars provence who emigrated to Oman then to east africa and to kilwa ,Tanga,zangebar, kismoo and mosambique

The Arabic family name "Ajami", well-known bearers of which include Fouad Ajami, normally indicates Persian descent.

Jam, Zam, yam) means water or drinking cold water. All have been used to refer to a legendary king and prophet of ancient Persian Ajam is Arabic pronunciation of Jam, Jam is the first name and Shid means glorious ,brilliant ,Full of light; shining.  bright.  a combination of high ,lightness and strong saturation. Glorious; magnificent, Shid  is the family name together JamShid , means bright sun , who was a great legendary king or prophet of pre history of Iran( around 8000 years ago) he was so famous,  so that for 4000 years Iran territory was called keshvar Jam, the first name of Iran ,he had invented bath room, building home, Making shoes, and … (invention of Shoes, bath rooms, iron swords, have been credited to him.) JamShid  A legend had  his famous  magic crystal ball to watch  the world specialy  Iran , and central Asia . Arabs arabized and changed jam to Al-Jam(A-Jam) to refer to Iranians people but later on they used this word in different grammatical shape to deduce different meaning like ojma, moajam. And ajam as a derogatory word Arabs used it synonym of fire worshiper for Zoroastrian and some time mostly in current century they used the word Ajam as non Arabs and the people who do not understand Arabic or people who can’t speak well. But some times this word used in respectful manner like the word Akasera of Ajam means the honorable great king of Kings( Persia).

Al most 3000 years ago IRAN Became famous as Persia. Pers or pars were a group of Arian who were very famous for hors riding and rising, every Persian had at least some horses, this helped them to conquer all Middle east and part of Europe .Their job was cattle rising so, cows and hors was holly for them some of them were worshiping horses and cows statute of bulls and horses can be seen in all ancient Persian era .,king syrus used to put a crown of 2 bull horn shaped, this is why Koran had mentioned him as Zu al Gharnain. Bull head horn, Arabs called the Persian as Fares, the word Fares became later synonym of bravery hors fighter or brave hors riding. Hero of riding horses.

The city of Jam Kran in Iran and Jae or Jaem Arak and bear e ajam in kurdestan are named after him. YAM,Yim ,Jam, and family Sheed as "Jam Sheed", had been mentioned in various ancient books, like the Shahnameh , Avesta  of Zoroastorianism. the most famous pakestani scholar named his most popular persian poem book as the zabour e Ajam or honor of the persian and The word Ajam is used many times in the Koran. Arabs  have been calling Iran blaad-e-ajam "Ajam country" for many centuries, and calling the Persian Gulf   "Bahre Ajam" or "sea of  AJam." As synonym to the sea of Persian .in english usually uncorrectly write ajam as adjam and adding D after A in this word is not esencial. for more detail in persian refer to Muhammad Iqbal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and this article:http://www.nimrooz.com/html/838/154458.htm

Iqbal Indian founder of Pakestan who had wrote many book in persian especialy book persian poem Zabur-e-Ajam  meaning (Persian Psalms)  and (1927); Javed Nama Book of Eternity)

Avar language - Wikipedia ... From the 17th century onwards it was written in a modified Arabic script known as Ajam, which is still known today. As part of Soviet supposed to have reigned for seven hundred years.

AHURA MAZDA TEACHES YIMA HOW TO SAVE THE ALL THE BEST AND FAIREST IN THE WORLD

Translation by R. C. Zaehner, in his The Teachings of the Magi (London, 1956), pp. 133-8

('Vivavdat,' Fargard II)

(46) And Ahura Mazda spake unto Yima, saying,

'O fair Yima, son of Vivanghat! Upon the material world the evil winters are about to fall........ THE WORD AJAM AND THIS ARTICLE was brought to WIKIPEDIA BY M.AJAM ON 2004

What is this for an anti-Iranian bullshit?
What is this for an anti-Iranian bullshit?

No Kurd on this planet call Iranians ajam, because Kurds are theirself Iranians, only Turkish/Arabic facists like this joke, who is spamming on Wikipedia! Stop this bullshit! --ShapurAriani 13:46, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Kurds call Iranians as Ajam
Kurds reffer to Iranians as Ajam. As people of France are called European, Iranians are called as Ajam among Kurds as well as some other ethnicities. Do not remove text from wikipedia. Mesopotamia 16:00, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

---

Kurdish people call persian as Ajam: وصیت نامه قاضی محمد

وصیت و راهنمایی هایی لازم قاضی محمد به ملت بزرگ کرد

1- به خدا و انچه از طرف او و پرستش خدا و پیغمبر ( ص ) و انجام احکام دینی, باور و عقیده راسخ داشته باشید.

2- اتحاد و همبستگی را در میان خودتان حفظ کنید, اعمال ناشایست در مقابل یکدیگر انجام ندهید خصوصاٌ در مسئولیت و خدمت کردن.

3- خواندن و نوشتن و سطح علمی خود را بالا ببرید تا کمتر فریب دشمن بخورید.

4- باور به دشمن نکنید خصوصاٌ دشمن عجم, زیرا به چند علت و راه عجم دشمن شماست, و دشمن میهن و دین شماست, تاریخ این را ثابت کرده که دائماٌ نسبت به ملت کرد بهانه گیر است و به کمترین گناه شما را می کشد و از هیچ گناهی نسبت به کرد بر نمی گردد.

5- برای زندگی بی ارزش این دنیا خودتان را نفروشید و به دشمن, زیرا دشمن جای هیچ باوری نیست.

6-به همدیگر خیانت نکنید, نه خیانت سیاسی نه جانی نا مالی نه ناموسی زیرا خیانتکار نزد خدا و مردم پوچ و بی ارزش و گناهکار است خیانت بر روی خیانتکار مرجوع می شود« روزی شناخته خواهد شد»

7- اگر شخصی از شما توانست کارهای شما را بدون خیانت انجام دهد او را همکاری کنید و منت بر او نگذارید و از وی منت و بخل در مقابلش نایستید,خدا نکند شما جاسوس بیگانه شوید بر او « رهبر و مسئولین »

8- جاهایی که در وصیت نامه نوشته ام برای مسجد و بیمارستان و مدرسه می باشند همه آنها را مطالبه کنید تا صورت می گیرند و نفع از آنها برده می شود.

9- شماها از شورش و سعی و تلاش«برای رستگاری و آزادی ملت کرد» نایستید تا مانند همه ملتها دیگر رستگار و آزاد خواهید شد. مال دنیا چیزی نیست اگر مملکتی داشته باشید و مستقل و آزاد باشید و مال و خاک و وطن مال خودتان می باشد این وقت است همه چیز را دارید.

10- من گمان نمی کنم حق کسی غیر از خدا بر من باشد, اگر کسی گمان کرد حقی بر گردن من دارد کم یا زیاد آن را از ورثه ام مطالبه کند ثروت زیادی را جاگذاشته ام و آنرا بگیرید.

تا شما متحد نشوید هرگز پیروز نخواهید شد از همدیگر ظلم نکنید زیرا خداوند خیلی زود ظالم را از بین می برد و آنرا نابود می کند. این عهد و پیمان خداوند است,ظلم می رود و خداوند حق مظلوم را از او میگیرد امیدوارم اینها را گوش دهید و خداوند شماها را پیروز کند بر دشمنانتان, چنانچه سعدی می فرماید:

مراد ما نصیحت بود و گفتیم

حوالت با خدا کردیم و رفتیم

I myself have told ajam to persian since i was a little child and learned to speak.

Mesopotamia 19:23, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

- A source in English language reffering Kurish people call Iranians Ajam.

Ajam in Kurdish alpahabet is spelled as "Ecem" and is pronounced the same as in Arrabic accent عجم.

Mesopotamia 20:13, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Sources for the meaning of Ajam(Ecem) in Kurdish Culture
From several Kurdish Magazines(Govara Mehname) and Kurdish Wiktionary.
 * Ecem in Mehname Magazine
 * Ecem in Kurdish Wiktionary
 * Ecem in Kurdish Academy,
 * Ecem in Peyama Kurd Journal,
 * The Kurds and the Caucasus, By Dr. Zorab Aloian (Ecem as name for boys in Kurdish, and its meaning),

Heja Helweda 08:25, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

 * None of those sources prove that ajam (which has a very specific derogatory meaning) and ecem are the same. One of those links states that ecem is a boys name in Kurdish, as you've stated, and that it is of originally Persian and Azeri origin. SouthernComfort 09:27, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

 * 1) In Kurdish alphabet j=c. So if we write ajam it is read عاژام but Ecem isعجم.
 * 2) Why it is a male name: The reason is that it has not a bad meaning Kurds use the name of ethnicities for given names. For example Kurds have a famous novelist whose name is Arab: Arab Shamilov.

Mesopotamia 10:41, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I am student of Iranian language studies and my professor says this is non-sense what you are saying! Btw. you are very racistic and anti-humanist! --ShapurAriani 16:12, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

You just know to claim! You just know to write bullshit. Your edists are political. Mesopotamia 16:27, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Links for Kurdish Latin Alphabet with Pronounciation
Here is some links for Kurdish Latin Alphabet with Pronounciation,Kurdish Latin Alphabet. So Ecem is read like Ajam. Moreover among Kurds, this word isnot derogatory or insulting. Heja Helweda 17:13, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Ajam in Arabic means "retarded" - Nonsense
HAHAHA. Im sorry, but I couldn't hold myself. I happen to be a native arabic speaker and Ajam doesn't mean "retarded", it just means someone who doesn't speak arabic, which doesn't necessary mean that he is retarded. It only means he has to take arabic lessons ;-) Jidan 08:14, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I read the article, reacted, and my father just stated the same point. He said it has the same conotaition as "foreigner". It was originaly stated as "mumbo-jumbo talkers", but lost the negative conotation quite quicly. --Striver 10:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Please someone Edit and correct the Article
Please dont trun this article into Anti-Arab propaganda (which is the aim of some Iranian ultra nationalistic members here),

if the Word Ajam meant Dumb, then please answer me why would Ferdowsi Say in his Shahnama:

بسی رنج بردم در این سال سی عجم زنده کردم بدین پارسی

"For thirty years I endured much pain and strife, with Persian I gave the Ajam verve and life".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_literature

Ioj 06:40, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Long time ago you wrote this, but I just came cross. Your reference to Shahnameh is correct, but your understanding of it seems to me completely wrong. Ferdowsi knew very well the negative meaning of ajam. He used it on purpose. To understand the phrase I give one every-day example: "مگر من نبودم که تو بی سرو سامان را خانه‌دار کردم ". So something like this: ferdowsi is complaining not confessing (so by reminding the reader of the negative word "ajam" he wants to say, why didn't you appreciate (well enough) what I did? Simple. Rawanash shaad.--Xashaiar (talk) 17:35, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

 * The article needs a ittle tweaking of course.--Zereshk 03:39, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

what happened? the article was edited and was Good a week ago and now its back to the racist iranian biased old article talking about the term meaning dumb!!!, and when it was a good neutral articl, whoever (the igorant)who is full of hate who changed it back to this racist article need to answer the question i asked above, if it meant Dumb why would your Ferdowsi call persian Ajam?!! in the SHAHNAMA???. you nationalist Iranian need to understand that what you doing spreading nationalistic false statments is nothing but a clear evidence of your Ignorance. for members who are neutral and rational enough please restore the older article. Ioj 12:46, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

 * The word itself is sort of racism. Ferdowsi used it to mock Arabs and to show that Iranians are not Ajams or mumbo jumbos.

Where the word came from
What on earth is this? How about using some Arabic sources to define an Arabic word for change, I don't see anyone using a Chinese dictionary or encyclopedia to define a Spanish word!

If in Persian the word has evolved to become biased and derogatory, that is not the Arabs’ fault. Moreover, what is this bullshit about the source of the word Ajam عجم and Faris فارس? How about checking out the sources in Arab books before making up Persian sources.

The word ajam عجم means ambiguous, incomprehensible, not clear and/or not understandable. The word Mu’jam معجم (dictionary) in Arabic is called so because you list ambiguous words and explain their meaning; the verb Ta’jeem تعجيم (to dot the letters) was called so because it makes the letters clearer (it made it possible for non-Arabs especially to distinguish between similar letters). The verb U’jim أعجم as in U’jim fi kalamihi أعجم في كلامه means that he does not speak good Arabic.

On the other hand, the word Arab عرب comes means “to understand, to express, to make oneself clear”. You would say “a’rab amma fi nafsihi” أعرب عما في نفسه => he expressed what is inside him; I’raab إعراب, to make distinct and clear – to speak perfect Arabic.

The basic idea is that the Arabs are called Arabs because they speak perfect Arabic and hence understand eachother, the Ajam on the other hand are called Ajam because the Arabs do not understand what they say since their Arabic is not perfect.

This stupid idea about replacing the letter alif ا with ain ع is not valid because in other cases you use both alif and ain. Besides, ain is NOT one of the prefixes or suffixes added to a word, there are certain letters that can be added to a word (meem, noon, alif, seen) not ain. The folk etymology is an ethnocentric idea.

As for faris فارس (horseman – not night) it is derived from faras فرس, horse. A horseman is called faris because he rides a horse and even a criminal can be a horseman if he is riding a horse. It has noting to do with the word Fars from “bilad fars” بلاد فارس, which letraly means “the land of the Parsis”, the p was turned in an f because in Arabic there is no letter p – if there was then it would not have been changed.

I see this article very biased.

--Maha Odeh 06:59, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Isti'jam
I think this is a very educative article, and it is a shame that it has attracted so much abuse from people who haven't bothered to read its contents.

I think it could usefully be supplemented by a section on the Arabic word isti'jam, 'persianisation', the process by which control of the 'Abbasid caliphate gradually moved from the original Arab conquerors, who had no administrative tradition of their own, to suave, well-educated, bookish Persians, who used their knowledge of the administrative system of the Sassanian empire to run the Moslem world for the Arabs.

Djwilms (talk) 03:27, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

ajami cat???
The more likely term for that cat is shirazi cat, not ajami...small edit needed there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.2.49.7 (talk) 23:30, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

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New article (to consider adding to references)
New article (to consider adding to references): https://www.bu.edu/articles/2022/fallou-ngom-discovers-ajami-african-writing-system/ 76.190.213.189 (talk) 20:06, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, this comment should have gone in the "Talk" page of Ajami script. 76.190.213.189 (talk) 20:08, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Ajam


text:
The Bedford Incident

The Bedford Incident is a 1965 British-American Cold War film directed by James B. Harris, starring Richard Widmark and Sidney Poitier, and produced by Harris and Widmark. The cast also features Eric Portman, James MacArthur, Martin Balsam, and Wally Cox, as well as early appearances by Donald Sutherland and Ed Bishop. James Poe adapted Mark Rascovich's 1963 novel of the same name, which borrowed from the plot of Herman Melville's Moby-Dick; at one point in the film, the captain is advised he is "not chasing whales now".

At the time The Bedford Incident was produced, Harris was best known as the producer of three of Stanley Kubrick's films. The two parted ways when Kubrick decided to make Dr. Strangelove as a satirical black comedy, rather than a dramatic thriller, but Harris remained focused on developing a serious nuclear confrontation film, and The Bedford Incident was released less than two years after Dr. Strangelove.

Plot
The United States Navy destroyer USS Bedford, under the strict command of Captain Eric Finlander, is sailing in the Greenland, Iceland, and United Kingdom gap. Aboard are Ben Munceford, a civilian photojournalist; Commodore Wolfgang Schrepke, a Bundesmarine NATO naval advisor; Ensign Ralston, an inexperienced young officer who is constantly criticized by Finlander for small errors; and Lieutenant Commander Chester Potter, the ship's new doctor.

When the Bedford detects a Soviet submarine just off the coast of Greenland, Finlander mercilessly stalks his prey into international waters and plays a waiting game after losing sonar contact in a field of icebergs, knowing the diesel-powered sub will have to surface within 24 hours to replenish its air and recharge its batteries. The crew never complains, but Potter is concerned that maintaining this level of vigilance is dangerous and suggests modifications, all of which Finlander dismisses out of hand.

Munceford is aboard to photograph life on a Navy destroyer, but his real interest is Finlander, who was one of only a few military officials to publicly state that the United States should have used greater force during the Cuban Missile Crisis. When Munceford asks Finlander if this is why, though he gets results, he was recently passed over for promotion to admiral, Finlander becomes hostile and accuses Munceford of misinterpreting the facts. He says he would go "all the way" to save his country, but, after calming down, insists his current action is just a deterrent.

The Soviet submarine is spotted by the Bedford's radar when it finally pokes its snorkel above the surface. It was not seen first by the sonarman because he is having exhaustion-induced delusions. Schrepke reminds Finlander that his orders are just to escort the sub out of Greenland's waters, but Finlander sends a message ordering the sub to fully surface and identify itself. When the order is ignored, Finlander runs over the snorkel. Munceford and Schrepke protest that Finlander is forcing the sub to fight, and Finlander orders Ralston to arm an anti-submarine rocket. He reassures Munceford and Schrepke that he will not fire first, but when he says that "if he fires one, I'll fire one", the fatigued Ralston just hears "fire one" and launches the rocket.

Before it is destroyed, the Soviet submarine launches four nuclear torpedoes. Although Finlander orders evasive maneuvers and countermeasures, the torpedoes continue to home-in on the Bedford. Finlander silently leaves the bridge, followed by Munceford, who frantically pleads for him to do something. The captain looks away sheepishly, and the Bedford and her crew are vaporized in an atomic blast, resulting in a mushroom cloud.

Writing
The story reflects several real Cold War incidents between the NATO and Warsaw Pact navies, including one in 1957 when the USS Gudgeon, a submarine, was caught in Soviet waters and chased out to sea by Soviet warships. Although none of these real-life incidents ended as catastrophically as the Bedford incident, the story illustrated many of the fears of the time.

The screenplay by James Poe follows the novel fairly closely, but Poe wrote a different ending. In the novel, the Soviet submarine does not fire back at the Bedford before being destroyed. The shocked Finlander receives word of his promotion to admiral. Commodore Schrepke, realising the incident will spark World War III, sabotages one of the remaining ASROCs and destroys the ship. Munceford, the sole survivor, is found by Novosibirsk, the submarine's mothership.

Filming
Although some shots in the film were recorded at sea, The Bedford Incident was mostly filmed at Shepperton Studios in the United Kingdom. The "USS Bedford" is a fictitious guided missile destroyer, and the role of Bedford was mostly played by a large model of a Farragut-class destroyer. Interior scenes were filmed in the British Type 15 frigate HMS Troubridge (R00); the Troubridge's novel, forward-sloping bridge windows can be seen in some shots, as can British military equipment, such as a rack of Lee-Enfield rifles. Poitier and Balsam's initial flypast and landing from a Whirlwind helicopter were filmed aboard another Type 15 frigate, HMS Wakeful (1943), whose pennant number of "F159" is clearly visible in the scene. The vessel portraying a Soviet intelligence ship has the name "Novo Sibursk", written on the hull at the bow in the Latin alphabet (rather than the Russian language's Cyrillic alphabet), though "Novosibirsk" would have been a more accurate rendering.

Reception
Bosley Crowther of The New York Times wrote that "the whole thing transcends plausibility [...] because of its gross exaggeration of a highly improbable episode. [...] the blame for this climactic blooper must be lodged against James Poe, who wrote the script from a novel by Mark Rascovich."

Actual Cold War incident
In October 1962, at the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Soviet submarine B-59 was pursued in the Atlantic Ocean by the U.S. Navy. When the Soviet vessel failed to surface, destroyers began dropping training depth charges. Unlike in The Bedford Incident, the Americans were not aware that the B-59 was armed with a T-5 nuclear torpedo. As the B-59 had been out of contact with Moscow for several days and was running too deep to monitor civilian radio broadcasts, the Soviet captain thought World War III might have started and wanted to launch the weapon, but he was overruled by his flotilla commander, Vasili Arkhipov, who was using the sub as his command vessel. After an argument, it was agreed that the submarine would surface and await orders from Moscow. It was not until after the fall of the Soviet Union that the existence of the T-5 torpedo and how close the world came to nuclear conflict became known.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: The Bedford Incident


text:
Talk:Characters of Kingdom Hearts/Sora

Fictional Interdimensional Traveler?
I don't think Sora fits into this catagory. In the Kingdom Hearts series the worlds are clearly shown as planets, not dimencions. Pata Hikari

 * No, I think he fits. The worlds are shown to have different laws which are not to interfere with one another. Moreover, it's (supposed to be) impossible to travel between the worlds, although there are methods of travel, like Sora's gates, the corridors of darkness, or gummi ships when the walls have been torn down. 2:56, April 17

I'm not sure if he qualifies though, their always refered to as worlds, Sora should be kept from that catagory until the differnce between Worlds and Demensions is clarifed. just a question though, Since he comes from Dream Zanarkand which doesn't physically exist wouldn't Tidus count as an interdimensional Traveler?
 * 'World' is an ambigious term, since it can mean planet, universe, or point of view. The reference to walls between the worlds is telling, though. It speaks of interdimensional barriers, rather than physical walls erected between planets. Also, as one of the unsigned commenters pointed out, some (Wonderland for instance) operate under different laws of physics than others, which wouldn't occur if they were in the same space-time. Noneofyourbusiness 16:43, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

They are not planets. Basically, Sora and company travel through dimensional drifts that lead to different realities. Do you really think one Disney movie setting is one entire planet? No, they're not. Those settings are the main aspects of those realities, so they represent the "worlds" themselves. They only seem to be represented as "planets" out in space in the "World Map". Basically, Tetsuya Nomura didn't want the navigation of the worlds to be complicated. Thus, that's the reason why the "World Map" looks like that. NeoSeifer

Another thing. Look at the Beast's Castle (from KH2), for example. Last time I checked, a castle surrounded by trees on top of an unearthed land mass with a giant rose in a glass display in front of the castle wasn't a planet. NeoSeifer

Why doesn't anyone ever reply when I make a good point? NeoSeifer
 * Because if you'll notice, people stopped discussing this point on July 14, 2006. Axem Titanium 22:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with NeoSeifer, because if you read the Kingdom Hearts Manga on the first page explains how there was one world, and that it split up after the heartless destroyed it and the children recreating it ect. ect. and that why would Donald (in the manga) be so uptight on keeping the Heartless and other worlds a secret? And maintaining world order? It would just cause confusion...

Regardless of what the worlds in the Realm of Light are (just about everything points to them being more like planets, rather than dimensions; I suspect the so-called "barriers between worlds" are simply the vacuum of space, and they "broke" when the Heartless showed up because Gummi Blocks started showing up around that time, making space travel possible), Sora *does* travel between dimensions--he goes from the Realm of Light to the In-Between/Twilight realm (Twilight World and Castle Oblivion) to the Realm of Darkness during the story. He doesn't do that as often as planet-to-planet travel, but it still happens often enough to be mentioned. 63.215.28.145 01:43, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Main Image Change
I've changed the main image to Sora's KH2 design, as it's his current appearance. I hope nobody has any objections. 8:46, 9 April 2006

Character again?
It appears someone has taken the liberty of making it a character article...again. ~ Hibana 09:03, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
 * The character's appeared in three games. That's notable enough for me. --Apostrophe 20:34, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I think its okay...I mean, they've got a lot of info here, and he's a pretty popular character in modern fiction. ~  Dee man 45 21:14, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Kingdom Hearts is pretty much destined to become an ongoing series, so I think its fine to feature its main character on its own page. The very fact this page is as full as it is with pretty relevant information I think is enough to say he should get his own page. --Kiyosuki 23:14, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Fusion at the END?
"... ... ... It is revealed that one of the Organization members, Roxas, was "born" when Sora briefly became a Heartless in Hollow Bastion during the first game. He even fuses with Roxas near the end of KH2."
 * Doesn't Roxas fuse with Sora at the end of the prologue, which would be at the beginning of the game? --'Ivan 02:42, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Beginning-of-my-Name-sake. --'Ivan 15:12, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

That's somthing confusing but i think i understand. Roxas fuses with Sora at the beginning, Roxas then exist in Sora being a voice inside his head and helps Sora, though Sora thinks it just internal dialouge, you know Hamlet's 'To be or not to be' kind of thinking. because she sees Sora and Roxas inside him Namine can exist to open the cooridor of darkness, She looks at Sora then it's kinda explained when Roxas says "i think i understand I see myself the way you remember me, and you see yourself the way i remember you" i think that Namine's memories of Roxas let him come out of Sora, and Roxas's memories of Namine let her. come out of Kairi holding hands and glowing was just them going back to their others. Lots of Metaphysics and very confusing but i hope that helps.

If Sora did merge with Roxas at the start then why did they make such a big deal of it at the end? Exactly when do you hear Roxas as internal dialogue for Sora? Namine can open dark portals completley independently as demonstrated when she frees kairi from the dungeon. As for the end if you read the ansem reports a few times you'll see Roxas and namine exist as the other remebers them because Kairi was involved in Roxas's creation and Sora in Namine's. Finaly at the end Namine merged with Kairi and then Roxas did the exact same sequence with Sora. If Sora had merged with Roxas at the beginning he wouldn't need to perform the same fusing action as namine did.- paul@wiki

Sora only partially merged with Roxas in the beginning and they totally accepted being one at the end. That's also why they had the fight in Sora's mind. - Lord Vann

Information

 * Here is some information from the Ragnarok article merge, please insert it how you see fit. Deckiller 21:27, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

In the Final Fantasy spin-off title Kingdom Hearts, one of Sora's attack abilities is called Ragnarok. When the ability is activated, Sora leaps into the air and lands multiple keyblade blows on an airborne enemy, firing blasts of energy from his keyblade which home in on nearby enemies after the combo is finished.

In the sequel to Kingdom Hearts, Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories, one of the more powerful sleights (a card combination that results in a special attack) is also called Ragnarok. It requires 3 cards with individual values of either 7, 8, or 9. Sora will leap into the air and energy collects at the tip of his keyblade. While suspended in the air, Sora is still able to move, thus allowing you to aim the attack while enemies are still moving. Once fully charged, Sora fires a concentrated blast of rays. The attack can also be fired prematurely without any loss of power.
 * I think the ragnaraok article should be deleted; it is too much to put in info on a single attack, and then you would need to cover the other attacks to make it comprehensive; Wikipedia is not an FAQ, people. -Dee man45 03:22, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Hence why I left this information on the talkpage instead of redirecting to the list of FF weapons without it. I'm sick of fancruft as well. Deckiller 03:54, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I added stuff about the romantic hinting between Sora and Kairi, I see it as relavent and easily defended as canon, also a used the term hinted to discribe how the feelings are presented, please do not remove this part.

A few questions
How come there's not a seperate entry for Keyblades? Sora's certainly not the only character who uses them--as of KH2, there have been three (or four, if he counts) different people, other than Sora, who have used one. Also, the "secret" movie at the end of KH2 suggests that there's even more out there somewhere... So should somebody make a "Keyblade" page? Maybe with a list of Keyblades, who has used them, and stuff like that, too. It's kind of silly to claim that the Keyblade is the only weapon which can truly kill Heartless and Nobodies--in all three of the games, you see many of the two killed off by other things--summons, other characters, Riku's Soul Eater sword in CoM, Axel's chakrams, and so on. And one last thing... it hasn't really been figured out WHAT causes Anti-Form to activate. People have been trying to figure it out, but without much luck yet. So unless there's some proof that I haven't seen, someone should probably take the part that says why it happens off...
 * A separate article is a great idea. Doit toit! :) Make sure to mention those cool replicas people make, and the relations to other weapons (sword/axe) and real-life suitability. Tyciol 21:01, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Am I the only one who thinks the medallion from Pirates of the Carribean could be a keychain? -Unknown
 * Possibly, but now that you gave me the idea I think so too. Tyciol 21:01, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Someone will have to play through and write down Keychains as they go, since only the Kingdom Key, Oblivion, and Oathkeeper Keychains are acknowledged in the inventory, but for some reason after you complete a world the Keychain's name and picture shows up. The only Keychain I know the name of is the Hero Stone (for Hero's Crest). urutapu 03:56, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Why? That's really very extraneous overdetail. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 05:03, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
 * There are four Keyblade users, even if you don't count Roxas. Also, Anti-form's formula has been released in guides, most notably the Japanese Ultimania guide.

Obviously, the secret movie points out that there are thousands(possibly millions) of different Keyblades out there. I think there's enough info of the Keyblade for it to have it's own page.

Anti-Form
Actually, it HAS been revealed what causes Anti-Form, via the Kingdom Hearts II Ultimania Omega, a comprehensive guidebook published by SquareEnix itself. The guidebook is the absolute authority on the game, and thus, information found within is essentially concrete. Among other things, it does list the requirements for attaining Anti-Form, which were exactly as written earlier today. 69.40.115.212 03:17, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Urgh. For starters, it isn't the Omega. I've kept the actual information; I objected to your presentation of the information as a rebuttal, which is terrible form on an encyclopedia. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 03:36, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Very well. I can understand your objection to my form.  I simply wanted to try and get rid of some false information that I had seen.  69.40.115.212 03:50, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Keyblade Information?
I want somebody to clarify this statement:

''In the occasions when Roxas used the Oathkeeper and Oblivion Keyblades he was simply using the same conjure that all the other members of Organization XIII used. They are not real Key Blades.''

The last statement looks too much like speculation in my opinion. When did the game say that Roxas had fake keyblades? It does seem plausible because he draws the power from Sora, but saying they are fake? I don't understand.

I'd like clarification on this also. ---Chemicalist 20:07, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I think it's stated specifically in-game that Roxas can use the real Keyblades, by virtue of the fact that he's the Nobody of Sora. -Rikoshi 22:07, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

 * It may be worthwhile to discuss the very concept of a 'real' keyblade- since there is a certian lack of reality to even the most real keyblades. For instnace: keyblades can be formed and unformed and transformed and teleported at will, and a keyblade master at the hight of his power (say, by Driving or whatever Roxas does) can form a second keyblade, despite being the master of only one 'actual' keyblade.  I think something needs to be done to separate the concepts of the 'real' keyblade (what it is that a keyblade master is the 'master' of) and the 'physical' manifestation of the keyblade - which may be in different forms or may actually be two keyblades or may, at the time, be not physically formed at all. Webrunner 17:12, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * WP:NOR. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 20:34, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well i'm not saying it should be put in the article, but I just thought it would be useful to point out in this discussion that there really isn't enough information on the actual nature of the keyblade to be able to say this and that keyblade is or isn't 'real' Webrunner 21:23, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

if there keyblades there keyblades. Remember, each world has a keyblade (keybalde of the realm of light, shadow, way to dawn, and that keyblade Kariri has..) and so if the noboby is of soras, then it is true keyblades... Sora214

There's no denying that the Keyblades Sora, Riku, Kairi, Xehanort's Heartless, Roxas and Mickey use are canonical. That doesn't necesarily mean EVERY keychain is canonical. Some of the "unseen" ones like Fenrir are (since Tifa physically gave it to Sora, though you didn't see the keychain itself), but you don't see most, if any, of the others being recieved. --L337 kybldmstr 10:22, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Quite a few are given, actually (such as the Agrabah ones) - and alot of them seem to be based on the keyholes. The Moon one from the Mysterious Tower is seen to be given, as well, and Gullwing is too.
 * Is it verified that they are actually just manifesting the same keyblade they already have, or is it possible that being a keyblade master is like being a master of the sword - you're a master of the art of its use, not just that one sword - maybe they can have indefinitely many keyblades, as long as they are strong enough to handle them (like Final Form + Valor Form = 4 keyblades?)KrytenKoro 01:12, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

For that matter - what makes the organization's weapons "unreal"?KrytenKoro 01:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Antiform or AntiForm?
AntiForm was action replay'd into the Drive Menu in [this video]. Note the lowercase "f" in "Antiform". Just asking, where is it called AntiForm, the guide? If not I'm editing it.
 * End battle stats screen. States "Times used AntiForm" or something like that. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 00:14, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

The secret ending.
this has nothing to do with the character and thus i will remove it. i think it would be better placed in the Kingdom Hearts 2 main article not sora's character article. "END OF LINE"

Sora in Timeless River
I changed Sora description "1920 style" to "1960s' Osamu Tezuka-style", but was reverted twice. The second time was with a comment that said "Japanese animation was inspired by Disney in the first place". I am aware of this, but Japanese animation did not come into being in the 1920's, and the style Sora has in Timeless River is non-existant then. Though Japanese animation is inspired off Disney, it did not start until the 1950's by Osamu Tezuka, at the earliest. Please consider this. deadkid_dk 04:01, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Please consider that everything else in that world is based on the 1920s Disney cartoons. Everything.  On top of that, saying it's based on Tezuka's style in a point-of-view.  It's never officially stated.

 * Also, read this. (from Tezuka article)

 * "The distinctive 'large eyes' style of Japanese animation (anime) was invented by Tezuka, who based it on cartoons of the time such as Betty Boop by Max Fleischer and Mickey Mouse by Walt Disney." urutapu 04:10, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Nobody is doubting that Japanese animation is based on Mickey Mouse and etc. I'm just saying, the style was not invented in the 20's (There is a distinction between the styles of Astro Boy and Mickey, no?) . Also, Donald Duck and Goofy's appearances aren't based on the 1920s cartoon, they're based on their respective debuts. (1930's) deadkid_dk 05:22, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Sorry, not seeing Sora as anything but "human adapted to the style early Disney cartoons". As everything else in the world is based on those Disney cartoons, I'd say it's safer to state the same for Sora rather than the opinion that it's from Astro Boy (which Sora is too thin to fit in, anyway) or some such. ' (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 16:19, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Alrighty then. deadkid_dk 23:30, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

No AntiForm from Final Form?
Over at GameFAQs.com, someone stated that you cannot become AntiForm if you change into Final Form. Is that true?--BigMac1212 05:12, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes. But, um, why are you asking us? '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 05:27, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I wanted to make sure the statement is correct.--BigMac1212 17:55, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

No, it is NOT true. You can still transform into AntiForm - it simply occurs even less than normal. --L337 kybldmstr 10:27, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with L337 kybldmstr; Final Form decreases the probability of turning into AntiForm by 10 points, but it still has a slim chance of turning into AntiForm. K  e  yblad  e  S  e  phi  (Talk)  (Contributions)   (Autograph) 00:57, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I thought Final Form reset the Drive counter?—ウルタプ 03:17, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Obtaining it, yes. Using it only decreases the counter by 10 and it's impossible to transform into AntiForm when transforming into Final Form. ' 05:39, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Anti Form is obtainable when transforming into V, W, or M Forms, while Final decreases the points that the others add.KrytenKoro 05:13, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

SSBB?
I thought there was a cameo appearance for Sora in SSB. Brawl. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkside597 (talk • contribs)
 * No, it's one of the fan suggestions.—urutapu 05:20, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Well I thought it won the Japanese poll, so doesn't Sora get a high chance then? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkside597 (talk • contribs)
 * I guess so, but nothing's been confirmed, so nothing needs to be said for now.—urutapu 14:51, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Who owns Sora
There has been a debate as to which company owns Sora, Disney or Square-Enix. Does anyone have proof as to which company owns him? Buster Sword
 * I'd say Square, since they developed the game and Nomura designed him, but it's never been officially stated.—ウルタプ 13:47, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I remember reading something about this in a Official PSM magazine. Actually, I think that Disney owns Sora and any original characters. I'm not sure though. ChromeWulf ZX 02:02, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Cloud and Sora
One of the pieces of trivia claims that Cloud and Sora look similar. Maybe I'm blind but I don't see any resemblance whatsoever. Does anyone have a citation? --Stupidhumanzz 05:27, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Its all because of the spikey hair. Tifa in KH2 is looking for someone "with spikey hair." When Sora points out his own spikey hair, she says "spikier." Thats really the only thing they have in common. DJKingpin 20:08, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

In the manga they look oddly alike when they meet in Olimpeus Coliseum (bad spelling of Herucles world...) Sora214

Nightmare town transformation
I'm confused. It says that the keyblade also undergoes a transformation. But, I didn't see anything different about it in Kingdom hearts. But if you're talking about in Kingdom hearts 2, maybe you should explain that. Trunksamurai 20:12, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

"Sora" Name in Japanese
This may come across as a finicky technicality but I'm pretty sure the name "Sora" should be stated in Hiragana　（そら） other than in the Katakana version （ソラ） This alphabet is usually reserved for foreign names or objects. And as all Japanese dictionaries translate "Sora" as "Sky" then would it not be correct to have his name in Hiragana Japanese?

If anyone could clarify to the contrary to it actually stating his name in Katakana in the game itself then please do. Otherwise, could this be rectafied to the correct alphabet.
 * ...as the name of this character, "Sora" is written EVERYWHERE in katakana.—ウルタプ 15:41, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Uhm, on the KH2 site, his name is written in katakana, while I haven't played the Japanese version of KH/2 myself, I would presume it is in katakana, and given the benefit of doubt, it'll be katakana here. While his name IS Sora and that happens to be the word for sky, doesn't necessarily mean it is, infact, allusions themselves have very little if at all any connection to what is being alluded to, plus in Japanese most character names are written in katakana, since hiragana is "strictly" reserved to depict the actual word. Zerocannon 09:32, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Adding spoiler tags is censorship?
Can someone explain this to me? I really don't consider letting people know that the article is about to spoil major plot points censorship. This must mean that an awful lot of articles on Wikipedia are "censored" as they have spoiler tags.

If I missed something about this in the guidelines, please link me to it. Blue Phoenix 03:20, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It is the consensus of WikiProject Square Enix and WikiProject Final Fantasy not to include spoiler tags because:

 * Wikipedia is not censored, as shown by what Wikipedia is not and the content disclaimer available at the bottom of every page.
 * Spoiler tags add nothing to the article. It's quite plainly obvious that a Wikipedia page about a topic is going to have spoilers on that topic. If you don't want to be spoiled about it, why would you even come to read it?
 * Spoiler tags break the flow of the article by clearly marking where spoilers can and cannot be. Limiting the article in such a way would force the editor to rearrange the article to its mutual degradation.
 * Spoiler tags are inherently POV because who are we as editors to say what is and what isn't a spoiler? Where is the line in a game beyond which information is considered a spoiler? Is there such a line? The opening scene of a game wouldn't be a spoiler to someone who's played it but to someone who hasn't bought it yet, it is a huge spoiler.
 * There are other reasons but if you really feel strongly about it, go to WP:SE to talk to them. Axem Titanium 16:11, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I never looked it that way before. I have to say I'm intrigued, and in a good way. No arguments from me. Blue Phoenix 14:07, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your distinct lack of prejudiced arguing-for-the-sake-of-arguing. Usually, bigoted and/or irritated editors who don't like new ideas try to misconstrue Wikipedia policy for the preservation of spoiler tags. Axem Titanium 22:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Although it should be noted there are non-bigoted and/or non-irritated editors who like new ideas and don't try to misconstrue Wikipedia policy yet still favor spoiler tags. Powers T 15:42, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

So, does that mean we can't use spoiler tags in the article? I did add two just now, feel free to take them out if it violates anything (though I wouldn't understand why =/) --L337 kybldmstr 10:30, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Copyright
What company actually owns Sora? Disney? Square-Enix? Thanks in advance -Power Slave 01:37, 28 November 2006 (UTC) Who, sorry about that. Someone already asked the same question halfway up the page -Power Slave 01:43, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I am aware that the question is also up there, but anyway I will answer it. I think that Sora, Kairi, Riku etc are owned by Square Enix. See:

"© 2002 Square Enix Co..LTD. All rights reserved. Original Character Design ©2002. 2003. 2004. 2005. 2006. Square Co..LTD All Rights Reserved. All likeness is the sole property of Square Co..LTD. The use of these materials is forbidden, and thieves will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law." I think they are anyway, but I will try to doublecheck that quote. Yuanchosaan 09:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Got it. Found it on one of the other talk pages. All credit to Zeno McDohl. Yuanchosaan 08:09, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Age?
He's 14 in the first game, and a year passes between KH1's end and KH2's start... so, should his age be listed as 14 or 15? I'm not sure what the general way to do character ages is--would the page use his first appearance's age (14), or his most recent known age (15)? 63.215.28.145 01:40, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It would be his first age because not everyone has played KHII, so they would be confused if they started with KH1 and suddenly found him to be a year older on Wikipedia. I probably could have worded that better... Axem Titanium 01:43, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Couldn't we break it down for his age in KH1 and age in KH2? Lionheart08 21:46, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't that be pretty silly since if you knew enough about KH to care, you'd already know the answer anyway? Axem Titanium 01:36, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's silly. On Yuna's page it shows separate ages for her appearances in FFX and FFX-2. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.235.141.68 (talk) 20:52, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

If the article has information beyond his first appearance, it should list any other ages. That being 15 in KH2. "'The hero of this story. Chosen by the Keyblade, this 15-year-old is on a journey to reunite with his friends. His best friend Riku has gone missing, while Kairi has been left behind in their homeland of Destiny Islands. He has a cheerful disposition, and while a little naive, his sense of justice is extraordinary.'"

The above is from the mini-handbook you get from the game, word for word. I am going to add it in, much like Yuna's article. There is no reason it shouldn't be added, since Wikipedia is not censored for spoilers, as well as WikiProject Square Enix and WikiProject Final Fantasy. See more information in the above section that was dealing with spoilers. Disinclination 23:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Limit Form
It seems that according to SOME people that the current info on Limit form is not worthy enough to be put on the page. So I ask you guys, what is it going to take to get the info to be put on the page? Omimon January 20 16:01, 20 January 2007 Apostrophe (Talk | contribs) (I'm well aware of its existence. I'd prefer we waited until the stupid game is released so we can get some actual DETAIL.)—ウルタプ 02:17, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Didn't bother to check the history?

Well who made Apostrophe the master of the page. Omimon ,January 20
 * I am totally with you on this one Omimon, I think the infomation you had should of been of the article too. Foilenleg - 21 January 2007
 * One scan is not reliable proof. Wait until more proof about this so-called "Limit Form" comes out and then we can write about it. // Poetic  Decay  03:39, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * "Some magazine says something called Limit Form exists, and you can probably do Dodge Roll!" is not good prose. When more information is available, we can have your fancruft in the article, okay? '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 12:13, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Can't we at least put what we know already on the page. Omimon January 21
 * The thing is we actually don't know anything about it yet. We have one picture by some gaming magazine from Japan (which is hardly a reliable source). Including that would be including the illusion of information when in fact, nothing solid is actually known. Axem Titanium 02:08, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Um, do we even know for sure if it's actually called "Limit Form" or not?? From what I remember, even the Japanese magazine that had the news about it used quotation marks (or the Japanese version of them anyway; those little half-brackets they use for quotes over there) around the term "Limit Form." That, to me, suggests that THEY don't even know what it's going to be called yet--the names of all the other forms were entirely quotation-mark-less.63.215.28.145 06:37, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

According to Kingdom Hearts Ultimania, Limit Form will look very much like Sora's KH1 outfit (only it will actually fit and still matches to his current costume) and will allow Sora to use many of his old KH1 abilities (at last! Dodge Roll! :D). Not convinced? check the front page yourself! --L337 kybldmstr 10:37, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Am I the only one who's actually seen a video of Limit Form in action on Youtube.com? Sora uses Ragnarok, Dodge Roll, and Ars Arcanum. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.88.98.193 (talk • contribs)

Article cleanup?
To me, the article seems to be talking about the entire storyline of KH, not Sora specifically. I thought articles about characters talked about the relevant character and their development and stuff, not the plot of every piece of literature they appear in! --L337 kybldmstr 03:37, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * All of the pages of the main characters (Sora, Riku and Kairi) seem to come from each of their point of view from the events. That much is different at least, but they could be a bit more personal. And references. Where are the references!? Dx Disinclination 04:33, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Going to post for an outside source
This little revert war has been going on for what seems like a year, from what I've seen on the talk pages. My edits, which were up there for over a month or two, were reverted twice recently. So, I'm going to post on the WP:SE talk page (someone could post on the Disney one as well) for outside sources to talk about the issue of adding both ages to Sora's, Riku's, and Kairi's articles. I personally believe they should be added, along with other people, and some believe they shouldn't. Or not at all. I feel this is a necessary course of action, simply because it will probably never get solved otherwise. Disinclination 04:09, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

WTF? They won't let people post the main cast's ages? That's pretty f*cked up to me. I'm adding them if they aren't already there, full stop. And screw anyone who says they shouldn't be there. --L337 kybldmstr 10:14, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

 * L337 kybldmstr, please try to remain civil in arguments. Trust me, it just gets you no where. I do believe that the ages should be added, just like on the other articles under the WikiProject Square Enix. KH already follows the preview that spoilers are to be taken out of their articles; why is this not following other articles as well? Disinclination 20:39, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

No consensus over age?
I hardly agree with that. There have been several people who have wanted to add them, and only about two people reverted our edits always. Considering the fact that two GA articles (specifically Yuna) both list their respective ages in more than one game, and I haven't seen an argument yet, other than its "stupid" and it "takes up space" on all three KH main characters. Considering since Cloud Strife's page actually lists like what, 5? EDIT: Or, it used to. Disinclination 19:58, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yuna is not a good example, because Final Fantasy X is not primed to become a series, while Kingdom Hearts is already one, and Sora's age is not going to be constant as they make more games. I also ask you to read WP:DEMOCRACY. ' 20:14, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
 * There was no consensus through discussion. There were multiple people who argued for ages being put up, and only two who said no. We also don't know how long the series will go for. Right now, there are only two, and probably faint public plans for a third one. Disinclination 20:20, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with User:Apostrophe on this one. KH is a series, the age is going to change with every game in the series. We could keep it at the most recent age, but then we'd just have to change it with every game. The section for each game gives his age within that game anyway, so we don't need the age listed in the infobox. Nique talk 20:37, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The only problem I had was that other articles under WP:Square Enix that were GA had listed several ages. Hence where my basis of the argument came from. We also still don't know how many games the series will consist of. Disinclination 21:21, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Clothes.jpg
Image:Clothes.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 18:10, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I have added a fair use rationale to the image. Axem Titanium 21:57, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Pirate
Should it be mentioned that when the player is going through the Port Royal stage that Sora appernatly is facinated by pirates? Vilerocks 02:53, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

yes I think that is a great idea though where to add it is the questionYou keep what you kill 22:25, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Too Much Content
I think we should work on deleting a lot of the story line in this article because there is no point in sumarizing the entire story lines of the games just the important events that happen to sora as a person not the party or any of that stuff I think that would geatly improve the quality of the page--You keep what you kill 22:25, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, yes, I think so too. Plot needs to be trimmed, definitely.HadesDragon 22:53, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Merge?
Was their ever an official deletion topic on any of the three main characters; Sora, Riku, and/or Kairi? Smile Lee (talk) 13:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Eh, they were merged because we didn't have enough real-world info to sustain said articles. They were just pure plot summary, which isn't encouraged nor allowed here, despite, unfortunately, being a common practice.HadesDragon (talk) 15:06, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I've been on Wikipedia long enough to understand that, but that still doesn't take into account that these characters are considered icons. They have made numerous appearences across many games, and their design is well documented in many sources. I think there is plenty for the articles to cover, besides fancruft or story summaries. Smile Lee (talk) 15:22, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, then I suggest you try and find such information. We had a hard time finding much of that, and that's why they were merged.HadesDragon (talk) 17:17, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Characters of Kingdom Hearts/Sora


text:
Talk:The Heartless

This page was listed on Votes for deletion, and the consensus was merge & redirect: see Votes for deletion/Sora (Kingdom Hearts)

title: Talk:The Heartless


text:
Prime Computer

Prime Computer, Inc. was a Natick, Massachusetts-based producer of minicomputers from 1972 until 1992. With the advent of PCs and the decline of the minicomputer industry, Prime was forced out of the market in the early 1990s, and by the end of 2010 the trademarks for both PRIME and PRIMOS no longer existed

The alternative spellings "PR1ME" and "PR1MOS" were used as brand names or logos by the company.

Founders
The company was started by seven founders, some of whom worked on the Multics project at MIT.
 * Robert Baron (President)
 * Sidney Halligan (VP Sales)
 * James Campbell (Director of Marketing)
 * Joseph Cashen (VP Hardware Engineering)
 * Robert Berkowitz (VP Manufacturing)
 * William Poduska (VP Software Engineering)
 * John Carter (Director of Human Resources)

The company started with the motto "Software First".

Poduska left in 1981, to start Apollo Computer. His successor was 27-year IBM executive Joe M. Henson, although Prime's president, Kenneth G. Fisher, had briefly been the interim top executive.

Minicomputer products
The initial offerings by Prime were clones of Honeywell's DDP 316 and 516 minicomputers. Their main competitors were Digital Equipment Corporation, Data General and Hewlett-Packard.

 * 1972: Prime 200
 * The first Prime system was similar to the 16-bit DDP 516. It ran an operating system called DOS, also referred to as PRIMOS 2 (not to be confused with MS-DOS, PC DOS, etc.).

 * 1973: Prime 100
 * The Prime 100 was a stripped down version of the Prime 200 (no memory parity or floating point).

 * 1974: Prime 300
 * The Prime 300 had a main store of 32 KB to 512 KB and from 6 MB of Pertec disk storage. It ran DOSVM operating system, also referred to as PRIMOS 3, but still used earlier DOS for booting. One of the first minicomputers with microcode-supported virtual memory capability. The virtual memory was simpler than used in later systems. Addresses were 16 bits, with each of up to 32 time-sharing (time slice) users, receiving a virtual 64 K-word address space. It had S-mode and R-mode instructions.

 * An example of the Prime 300 was installed in the mathematics department of the University of Aston in Birmingham, UK and at the Medical University of Hannover, Germany.

 * 1976: Prime 400
 * The Prime 400 ran at 0.5 MIPS, had a main store of up to 8 MB and 160 MB of disc storage. The name PRIMOS was now used for the operating system, and the P400 ran PRIMOS 4. It ran a V-mode instruction set, along with the S-mode and R-mode instructions. It had a segmented virtual memory architecture, somewhat similar to Multics.

 * 1979: Prime 450, 550, 650, 750 —the beginning of the 50 series nomenclature

 * The Prime 550 was an upgrade in performance over the Prime 400. It ran at 0.7 MIPS, had up 2 MB of memory and 500 MB of disc storage and a 9-track tape unit.

 * The Prime 750 was a major upgrade. It ran at 1.0 MIPS, had 2–8 MB of memory and 1200 MB of disc storage and a 9-track tape unit. This was very competitive with a similarly priced DEC VAX-11/780 and was one of the first 32-bit superminicomputers. Prime 750 systems were installed at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (RPI), Rutherford Appleton Laboratory (RAL), University of Paisley, Leeds University, Scripps Institution of Oceanography (SIO), University of Rhode Island, University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology (UMIST), the CADCentre in Cambridge, and Southeastern University in Washington, DC, Teesside University.

PRIMENET and a local area networking software product named RINGNET were announced.
 * 1980: Prime 150 and 250
 * 1981: Prime 850 (dual CPU machine)

Prime also marketed MEDUSA CAD software.

 * 1982: Prime 2250 also known internally as "Rabbit"
 * 1983: Prime 9950
 * 1984: Prime 2550, 9650, 9750
 * 1985: Prime 9955, 9655, 2655

 * The 9955 ran at 4.0 MIPS, had 8–16 MB of memory and 2.7 GB of disc storage and a 9-track tape unit.
 * Five Prime 9955 computers (uk.ac.salford.sysa to .syse, connected to JANET) were installed at the University of Salford (along with other systems such as the 2250, 2550, and 750); a Prime 9955 was installed at UMIST and a Prime 9655 at Nottingham University.

 * 1986: Prime 2350, 2450, 9755, and 9955-II
 * 1987: Prime 2455, 2755, 6350, and 6550
 * 1989: Prime 2850, 4050, 6450, and 6650
 * 1990: Prime 2950, 4150, and 6150

By 1987, Prime Computer had introduced an alternative line of Intel 80386-based computers, the EXL-316 series, running the Unix operating system. A "new line of Unix-based EXL-7000 computers" was announced in late 1990.

The company was successful in the 1970s and 1980s, peaking in 1988 at number 334 of the Fortune 500. In 1985 the company was the 6th largest in the minicomputer sector, with estimated revenues of US $564 million Much of this was based on the US Banking industry where the Prime Info database was widely accepted.

As of later 1989, Surrey University had the largest Prime Site in Europe, having multiple copies of virtually every 50 series  machine (mostly running Primos 20.x, but some still running 19.x).

CAD/CAM Business
Prime was heavily involved with Ford’s internal computer-aided design (CAD) product, Product Design Graphics System (PDGS). Design engineers used PDGS for auto body design, and finite element analysis using NASTRAN. It used a vectorscope from Lundy for a display. At one time in the 1980s, PDGS was the world's largest integrated CAD system, spanning the US, Japan (Mazda was Ford's subsidiary/partner), (Cologne) Germany, (Dunton) England, and (Geelong) Australia. The creators of PDGS, located in building #3 of Ford's Dearborn design headquarters, began working on the concept of parametrically driven geometry, which led to a PRIMEDesign system.

The company also acquired marketing and development rights to the MEDUSA CAD system, initially developed in England by Cambridge Interactive Systems (CIS), and having experience in the domain, the company explored transitioning to a CAD company. In 1982, Prime built a development team around the MEDUSA software and subsequently released several enhanced versions of the CAD/CAM system, branded as Prime MEDUSA. Enhancements included support of SunOS (also supported by CIS MEDUSA), a shaded viewer (based on Movie.BYU), and additional 3d visualization. Prime embarked on a project headed by Vladimir Geisberg to build a CAD-CAM system of its own called PRIMEDesign. This product was to compete with the industry leader at that time, CADDS4 from Computervision. RISC processors from MIPS Technologies and graphics processors from Silicon Graphics created the platform for PRIMEDesign as well as being the genesis of modern-day SGI. During this period, in 1985, Sam Geisberg left Computervision to found Parametric Technology Corporation and produce a parameter driven CAD system called ProEngineer. Computervision acquired Cambridge Interactive Systems in 1983, and Prime independently developed their version of MEDUSA.

Prime subsequently purchased Computervision, and Vladimir Geisberg, then VP for CAD, tried to merge back together the Prime and Computervision versions of the Medusa CAD system, and launch Prime Design. As time passed, it became clear that Prime Design, while leading edge, in theory, was unsuitable for real engineering design work, and Prime Design was ended.

Decline and end
By the late eighties, the company was having problems retaining customers who were moving to lower-cost systems, as minicomputers entered their decline to obsolescence. Prime failed to keep up with customers' increasing need for raw computing power. By the end, not a single Prime computer was subject to COCOM export controls, as they were insufficiently powerful for the US Government to fear their falling into the hands of hostile powers.

In 1988, financier Bennett S. LeBow attempted a hostile takeover of Prime, leveraging his much smaller MAI Basic Four company. To stave off LeBow, Prime management organized a $1.3 billion "white knight" leveraged buyout by J.H. Whitney & Company. Various problems dogged this project, the holding company organized by Whitney went bankrupt, and the resulting severe financial distress made it much harder for Prime to deal with the accelerating downturn in its core business.

Prime's 1991 revenues of $1.2 billion were 25% lower than their 1988 revenues of $1.6 billion. Its computer sales were down by more than half ($377 million in 1989, $170 million in 1991), and by 1992 no new Prime Computers were being sold, portending a decline in its lucrative business of servicing computers made by Prime (and other manufacturers), a significant contributor to its already-declining revenues. A planned 1989 layoff of 1,200 employees became much more: over 6,000, thus Prime's workforce dropped by over half, from 12,386 employees in 1988 to 5,900 by the end of 1991.

After the computer design and manufacturing portions of the company were shut down, the only viable business that remained was the Computervision subsidiary, an early pioneer in CAD/CAM, which was acquired in a hostile takeover 1988. Prime was renamed Computervision, which in 1992 sold the declining remnants of its Prime Information subsidiary to VMark Software Inc.

Computervision was subsequently successfully acquired by Parametric Technology Corporation in 1998, a company founded in 1985 by a former Prime employee.

Operating system
The company operating system, PRIMOS was originally written mostly in the Fortran IV programming language with some assembler. Subsequently, the PL/P and Modula-2 languages were used in the Kernel. A number of new PRIMOS utilities were written in SP/L which was similar to PL/P.

Phantom, CPL and ED
"Phantoms" were a form of unattended background processes that immediately began to run in the background when initiated by the PHANTOM command. "Conventional" batch jobs were initiated via the JOB command, including the ability to schedule them for a particular time.

CPL, the PRIMOS Command Processing Language was the shell scripting language.

The PRIMOS text editor ED was a line editor. It could record a command sequence and replay it on different files. EMACS, a full screen editor, was also available.

Prime 300 specification

 * A microprogrammed 16-bit central processor with floating point hardware, error detection and system integrity checking features.
 * 128 KB, 600 nanosecond access MOS main memory.
 * 6 MB cartridge disk. 165 cps character printer.
 * System software including a disk operating system and FORTRAN, BASIC and assembler for assembly language.
 * Support for up to 31 users for a total purchase price of about US$165,000.

Advent Online Knowledge
Advent Online Knowledge, Inc. was a Schaumburg, Illinois-based producer of software for Prime computers.

Marc Software
Marc Software International, Inc. of Palo Alto, California produced WordMARC word processing software for Prime computers.

Computer Techniques (Queo)
While Prime's PRIMOS operating system supported one or more compilers/interpreters for COBOL, FORTRAN, BASIC, RPG and 2 Assemblers, Queo was a step up: a procedural language more compact than COBOL, and with additional capabilities.

It was offered by Computer Techniques, Inc. of Olyphant, Pa. Queo later was reimplemented for PCs.

Office Automation System
Prime acquired the OAS application from its developer, ACS America Inc., a now-defunct New York City software house.

It competed in the UK DTI Office Automation Pilot, but did not win.

OAS included electronic mail and word processing. Electronic mail use was initially restricted to a single minicomputer. Much later, Prime released email that worked with multiple Prime computers in a network, and a synchronised global directory system. Word processing was available either on dumb terminals like the PT25, PT45 and PST100, or on the partially intelligent PT65 terminal. The PT65 had to download the word processing software from the host minicomputer whenever the terminal was turned on. The terminal allowed the user to work on one page at a time, which was periodically saved to the minicomputer. This "intelligent workstation" concept for word processing was similar to the functions of popular systems from rival Wang Laboratories. Prime's intelligent workstation for word processing was faster because it used RS232C cabling runs instead of  the coaxial links that Wang's systems used. Nonetheless, the word processing was not of the highest quality, and the PT65 was subject to software errors that scrambled the documents being worked on.

OAS also had a bilingual language lookup feature, sometimes marketed as machine translation.

Recognising the drawbacks of the downloadable WP workstation, Prime formed an agreement with Convergent Technologies for their AWS which Prime named the "Prime Producer 100" (launched in mid 1983) and later for Convergent's modular NGEN, clip together system, the "Prime Producer 200" (launched in 1984), each of which had far superior WP to the initial Prime offering, and were document-based.

In the UK, Prime had a very active OAS User Group whose suggestions were acted upon in new product development. UK Pioneers of the system included the London Docklands Development Corporation and Oxford Polytechnic, now Oxford Brookes University.

Prime Information
Both the Pick environment and Prime Information were based on the Generalized Information Retrieval Language System (GIRLS), developed by Richard Pick for the American Department of Defense.

Devcom, a Microdata reseller, wrote a Pick-style database system called INFORMATION in FORTRAN and assembler in 1979 to run on Prime Computer 50-series systems. INFO/BASIC, a variant of Dartmouth BASIC, was used for database applications. It was then sold to Prime Computer and renamed Prime INFORMATION.

Unlike the Pick operating system, a complete operating system, Prime Information was not an operating system, but a 4GL system that ran from the Prime PRIMOS operating system.

Prime Information was a re-implementation which deliberately left out some features and added others. Prime Information allowed rapid 4GL or 4GL-like development of applications around relational or quasi-relational database structures. After a series of evolutions and acquisitions Prime Information is now an obsolete part of the Rocket U2 software suite.

Prime Information Connection
In c. 1984, Prime developed a system to conflict with OAS and confuse the market. Prime Information Connection added word processing to Prime Information, giving the company two office oriented suites to offer in a marketplace dominated by Wang Laboratories.

CAD/CAM
Prime originally entered the CAD industry through Ford. At the time, Ford was using Control Data Corporation (CDC) stand-alone computers. Data was shared via reel tape and stored in "Data Collector" rooms at each facility. Ford began looking for a small computer that had all the advantages of the CDC computers, but could also connect to a network.

Prime’s 2250 ("Rabbit") offered the combination Ford was looking for in a package smaller than the original CDCs. In addition, the PRIMOS operating system would run unaltered across all Prime platforms; from the 2250 up to 750 (what would be considered today as a server). As a result, the Data Collector (rooms) would contain several 750 class machines, each with rows of CDC 300 or 600 MB drives. Primenet (Token Ring) network connected all CAD stations in a building with its Data Collector.

Ford pushed PDGS out to its suppliers and engineering contractors throughout the northern Midwest.

Prime gained expertise over the years with its collaboration with Ford and continued to expand into the CAD market with its Medusa product. With the acquisition of ComputerVision, Prime appeared to be a formidable force in the CAD/CAM industry.

Prime Medusa versions 5 and CV Medusa 7 were merged/recombined into a product that was called Medusa version 12. Prime also picked up Calma CAD systems from GE.

Electronic messaging
Electronic messaging was developed on relay.prime.com, which was the hub that relayed global electronic mail for Prime Computer. The software used on this computer system, PDN Mail, developed by Robert Ullmann, was designed to use the encoding header field that was later explained in a Request for Comments. PDN Mail was also used by Microsoft Corporation until MIME was introduced.

Before MIME existed, PDN Mail was able to perform the same functions and was used to send software updates as well as all sorts of attachments between systems. In August 1993, Robert Ullmann, David Robinson and Al Costanzo wrote RFC 1505. This RFC, documented the Encoding Header Field for Internet Messages that PDN mail used and was published by the RFC editor, Jon Postel that same year.

Marketing
A series of memorable advertisements created by Australian artist Rone Waugh in 1980 featured actors Tom Baker and Lalla Ward as their characters from the TV series Doctor Who. All four of these adverts have since been included on the DVD release of the 1979 serial Destiny of the Daleks in which both actors appear.

Photos

 * Photos of several Prime systems
 * RI Computer museum: 2450, 2850, 5340, and 9650.
 * a Prime 750

title: Prime Computer


text: Category:A Song of Ice and Fire books

title: Category:A Song of Ice and Fire books


text: Category:A Song of Ice and Fire

title: Category:A Song of Ice and Fire