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Template talk:War

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I saw that this box has an "edit" link on it. Since its so new, and may need additions, i'll leave it there for now, but as its not an infobox, I think it should come off eventually. Possibly one month after its creation? — siro χ  o  06:16, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)

 * A number of other series boxes have permanent edit links (e.g. History of the United States, History of Britain). I think they are a good idea as the boxes are otherwise very hard to edit for new users. - SimonP 06:51, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)

It's ugly and obstrusive. Keep it hidden. --Jiang 20:29, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'm going to add wiki links to urban warfare and mountain warfare.--Kross 19:15, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

Footnote template
I think that this template should be redesigned as a footplate template. I think it is now too large and dominates the pages it is on as a header template. Most people who go to a specific type of warfare are not looking for other types of warfare and on many war pages a picture in the top right hand corner is preferable to his template (eg total war). What do others think? --Philip Baird Shearer 21:25, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Time to upgrade!
How's this for a start? (Have no intention of making edits until people were consulted) Palm_Dogg 03:50, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Nice idea, but the color scheme looks slightly garish to me. How about something more in line with our other templates? —Kirill Lok s hin 22:32, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

 * LOL. Yeah, it is pretty butt-ugly. Yours is nice.  What do you think about widening the template, like Template:Israelis, so it's less of a list?  Of course in that case, we have to figure out what we would put... Palm_Dogg 23:48, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Interesting. We could save a lot of space by omitting "warfare" from every term (see the topic list on Portal:War, for example). —Kirill Lok s hin 23:54, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

 * True. Here's my rough draft (We could save a lot of space doing that...). Palm_Dogg 00:06, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Too wide, maybe? Here's another version, with short forms and a slightly lighter background.

On another note, it might be nice to put a similarly-proportioned ancient warfare picture (a chariot, maybe?) next to the M1-Abrams. —Kirill Lok s hin 00:26, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Also, there are lots of other links we should probably add. —Kirill Lok s hin 00:31, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

 * We can always add that stuff later. The important thing is to get the format set up now. Palm_Dogg 00:53, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I think I fixed most of the formatting issues; there's still some space after the pictures that I can't figure out how to remove. —Kirill Lok s hin 01:01, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

 * AWESOME! It looks perfect the way it is.  I'm going to switch templates. Palm_Dogg 02:19, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Looks good! Now we need to add back some of the other links. —Kirill Lok s hin 02:29, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Compared to the original, this is a masterpiece! Good job guys. --Loopy e 02:32, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I've added back most of the links that were in the original template. If there are any that shouldn't be linked from this (due to not being important enough, basically), feel free to take them out. —Kirill Lok s hin 02:55, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Nice job. Major kudos to a speedy and efficient project. Palm_Dogg 03:19, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Uh, Land warfare simply redirect to War. Should we remove the link from the template?--KrossTalk 08:04, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Done. —Kirill Lok s hin 11:35, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I still say that this template should be turned into a --Philip Baird Shearer 18:03, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Cavalry?
Would it be possible to squeeze cavalry tactics into the template? I'd do it myself, but I'm afraid of messing with the code and touching something not mine. Thanks. LordAmeth 14:03, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Done. Kirill Lokshin 15:18, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Supply line
Supply line is no longer used by the military the correct term to use now is Military Supply Chain Management. What123 00:25, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

 * We needn't follow whatever the current terminology fad is exactly. The predominant term in English usage—particularly in the context of history—remains "supply line". Kirill Lokshin 00:31, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Hello, with respect, it is not a fad it is a fact that "supply line" is no longer used by militaries . It has been replaced with Supply Chain Management  to differentiate between civilian and military SCM I created MSCM.  Supply line has been #redirected to MSCM. I think the template should be updated accordingly.  In addition, some of the links you have added to logistics are being redirected and don't really fit into this template. Thanks What123 01:08, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes, but we don't need to use formal military terminology exclusively. "Supply line" is still standard both in common parlance and in historical works (Napoleon had supply lines, not SCM, for example).  I'm not convinced that the term is prevalent enough that we should adopt it over something which would be more recognizable to the average reader.
 * As far as the other terms, we can figure those out once the redirects have all been sorted. (In any case, I think some of the redirects may be unnecessarily limiting the scope of the topics; but that's a separate issue.) Kirill Lokshin 01:23, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Change Box to Horizontal
I think it is time to move the template to the bottom of articles in a horizontal format, it is to long now and will only grow longer vertically. LindaWarheads 10:47, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

 * That would force us to move it to a much less prominent position within each article, though. Kirill Lokshin 12:10, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree with your assertion, but it is getting to long and all the issues that go along with that length. If it was horizontal at the bottom we would be able to add more links as the articles are written. At what point would you consider the horizontal box ? LindaWarheads 09:44, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

 * At the point where this box were to be substantially larger than a normal infobox, probably. I'm not sure how much potential to expand it still has, though; there really aren't many links that could be added at this point. Kirill Lokshin 15:25, 3 September 2006(UTC)

Combined arms/Joint warfare
These have been major doctrines in modern warfare, from WW II-era blitzkrieg to US operations today... shouldn't they be mentioned somewhere on this template? 61.7.120.59 01:47, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Good idea. I've added a link to joint warfare under the "Tactics" heading; if anybody knows a better place for it, please feel free to move it there. Kirill Lokshin 02:28, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Hogging all that space
This is a terribly bloated template that is spoiling an ever-increasing amount of articles. It's a textbook example of what one would not want in a good article. Consider making it horizontal or splitting it up into several smaller ones. The acceptable size was passed already back in early 2006. By now it's even worse than the gargantuan Template:Jews and Judaism sidebar.

Peter Isotalo 23:38, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

 * I tried to make a reduction. If someone feels like auto-reverting everything, please note that there are a few pointless duplicate links in there, like mechanized warfare. But let's at least try to discuss the merits of this many links in a such a basic topic template
 * Peter Isotalo 06:35, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

 * This may become a moot point shortly; see WT:MILHIST. Presumably the number of links wouldn't be a (major) concern in an auto-collapsing template? Kirill 12:43, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

 * A massive amount of linkage is still overwhelming, even when it's not placed at the very top of the article. We don't generally tolerate excessive amounts of links in See also-section, so why is so much different?
 * Peter Isotalo 21:25, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

 * This should really be several templates; at least two (a general "War" one and a more specific "Types of warfare" one) are fairly obvious. We've sort of been tied to a one-template approach in the past for layout reasons, but the collapsible floating box design being developed would allow this to be neatly split up into multiple smaller templates, any subset of which could conveniently be included in each article. Kirill 21:37, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

New Template

 * Hello, I have created a new collapsible Template based on the Template that solves the problem about hogging space, but still allows the Template to remain on the top-right of articles.  I was hoping for some input from other users to build a consensus, thank you. Chessy999 15:21, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Mmm, I think it's overly convoluted; too many collapsing sections are as bad as too few ones. I'd suggest going with something based on military navigation (which is the new standard base template for us); for example:

Or, alternately, a full-size version for the standard bottom-of-article position, which can then be expanded further:

Both of these have the added advantage of not needing the rather fragile collapsing-block code in the template itself. Kirill 17:29, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm a fan of the bottom-page template. To me, the top-right position should be reserved for infoboxes and possibly a topic-specific navigation box of limited scope. Navigation should come at the end of the article, IMHO. It's the natural position for a reader, having finished reading the article, to move onto the next one in the series of events or locations. JKBrooks85 18:16, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

 * I'm with JKBrooks. Where there is a relevant infobox or the like, this sort of navbox should probably go at the bottom. Though, if we were to go with a top-right box, my vote would be for Kirill's semi-collapsed version, as he makes a good point about too many collapsed sections being potentially a bad thing. LordAmeth 23:04, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up Chessy999. As I said above I think better at the bottom. --Philip Baird Shearer 10:39, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Hi, I agree that it should go at the bottom of the article. On a side note I just wrote the article Enemy (military), which has been +tagged for deletion, if you care to participate. Please note this is not an advertisement or solicitation as to, which way to vote.  Chessy999 12:58, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Do we have a computer program that can change the templates automatically or do we have to make the changes manually ?? Chessy999 (talk) 10:28, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Template is broken
This template is broken on, it would seem, every page which uses is. It does not float properly, and using the show/hide links does not actually work. I know precious little about formatting these floating boxes or I'd look in to it myself, but this need to be fixed! Cheers. --PeruvianLlama(spit) 04:35, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Organization of the content of the 'Battlespace' and 'Weapons' sections
In both the 'Battlespace' and the 'Weapons' sections of this template, the information is organized alphabetically. In the 'Eras' section, it is arranged chronologically. In the other sections of this template, it doesn't matter, but I think the 'Battlespace' and 'Weapons' sections, the contents should be reorganized so similar things are grouped together. I think that the contents of the 'Battlespace' section should be reorganized like this; Land (the most basic place that we war; we live on land), sea (centuries ago, humans began making ships that went to sea and warred), air (real, practical air warfare began only in 20th century), space (so far, we are only beginning to use space as a battlefield, and even then, almost exclusively for reconnaissance) and information (which has been around a while, but is not even a physical battlefield). In the weapons section, I think that Biological, Chemical and Nuclear weaponry should be grouped together (as they are all weapons of mass destruction, and might should be indicated as such in the template), infantry and cavalry should be grouped together (because they are both classified by the type of soldier that generally carries it), electronic and artillery should be grouped (as they are not weapons of mass destruction and are not named after the type of soldiers that use them) and armor and psychological should remain ungrouped (as they do not belong with anything else on the list). Look above for the current organization.--Star Trek enthusiast (talk) 22:01, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

 * I think they should be classified by role rather than by user. Chariots, Cavalry, and Armoured warfare fulfill essentially the same role in land warfare with differences in era so they should be grouped together with ships and aircraft as weapons platform.  I think traps should be added like naval and land mines as well as other static automated defenses because of their unique roles.  Countakeshi (talk) 12:58, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Tactics and strategy have been mixed up
It would seem practically everything under the, current live, template heading of "tactics" and "strategy" is wrong, and should be moved around. Key examples include: attritional warfare, which is an overall policy of grinding down the opposing military force. It is a strategy employed, which results in how tactics are employed; Total War is the complete mobilization of a nations resources to fight a war, which is not a tactical decision taken on the battlefield or in a foxhole; A Proxy War, is not a battlefield tactic employed but rather a full-scale war.

The template needs a complete overhaul. Thus I have made the below proposed change (for the tactics and strategy sections only), and have also included more links. A few of the links, since i am not familiar enough with them, I have grouped in the "other" section along with the likes of Proxy War, which does not fit the current template nor the below expanded and restructured categories.

I make no allusion to being completely accurate on every movement choice I have, or have not made, however I do feel what I have come up with is far more accurate than the current live template.

Edit: I have now inserted the rest of the current live template, and moved around and added several more links.Tempaccount040812 (talk) 14:04, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 4 January 2013 - Mispelling
Please change the spelling of "materiel"... it should be "material"

72.55.246.150 (talk) 20:10, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: "Materiel" is the correct usage in this context. WikiPuppies  bark dig 20:35, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

General comment, this template is great
Just wanted to say, this is a really interesting and useful template and I wish there were more like this. LT90001 (talk) 07:44, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Please add...
...Network-centric warfare to the "Other" section. --173.51.29.188 (talk) 07:37, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

 * done: I have added the above requested link.Tempaccount040812 (talk) 05:23, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 January 2015
Add to Weapons Economic, remove economic warfare from grand strategy.

--munir

178.135.87.140 (talk) 19:59, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. Sam Sing! 21:44, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

RfC: Move Economic warfare from grand strategy to weapons
Move Economic warfare from grand strategy to weapons 94.187.10.167 (talk) 23:48, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

 * I assume this has to do with the groupings in Template:War, proposing to move Economic warfare from the list under Grand strategy to the list under Weapons.

 * To me, it fits much better under strategy than weapons. Currently, weapons are things that are armed by the military.  Since Economic warfare goes beyond the military, it sounds more strategic.

 * Can you give your reasoning for this change?

 * --A D Monroe III (talk) 18:35, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose: I concur with . Economic warfare is not a weapon. Arguably, we could discuss the weapons used in economic warfare, but the economy is not a weapon that can be aimed at a person (maybe economic sanctions could be classified under weapons?). Xaxafrad (talk) 19:09, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

 * Oppose: I'm guessing that this request stems from the fact that our current article on Economic warfare is very poor. It currently describes Economic warfare as exclusively something that occurs during active military conflict, rather than a non-military substitute for total war.  From that, I'm guessing one might assume its a military weapon option.  But we cannot allow a bad article to infect other articles; we need to fix Economic warfare instead. --A D Monroe III (talk) 16:17, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Bar would be better than sidebox
Hi, I just saw this for the very first time with its new appearance on War film. I agree the topic is "Related" but do not think that a sizeable box right at the top of (every) article, especially perhaps where the topic is only "related" to the matter of the box, is a good idea. For a start, many articles I edit have 2, 3 or more navigation sets (I choose a neutral word). These membership sets would (and once did) take up excessive screen space ("real estate" in user interface design jargon), all the more problematic when half our readers already view Wikipedia on small screens (smartphones upwards). A solution is to use horizontal navigation boxes placed at the ends of articles, rather than vertical ones placed near the top on the right. Horizontal navboxes can (and best should) be made to collapse to a simple one-line bar with a title, so they are "quiet" (barely intrusive) but readily available. An example is the navbox - see Mathematics and art for how it works when there is a second navbox also present. I think you'll agree that it's a tried and tested solution, and one that offers plenty of room for the designer. All the best, Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:25, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 December 2015
105.149.66.219 (talk) 13:24, 5 December 2015 (UTC) ءí

Cavalry article
Could the "War" template be repositioned at the bottom of the Cavalry article? This way it would continue to serve a useful purpose without breaking up and distorting what is already a lengthy article. As a random example of better practice the National Gendarmerie article places its template at the foot of the main text, thereby presenting a tidy and well organised appearance without large gaps. Thanks.(Buistr (talk) 00:18, 9 May 2016 (UTC)).

هعبد
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Cannolis (talk) 15:10, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 September 2017
Shock and awe 50.64.119.38 (talk) 22:15, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 00:18, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Sorry. I noticed Blitzkrieg in mentioned under the operational category, however that tactic is a more specific strategy that should fall under the Shock and awe doctrine. I guess you could say I feel this should be added. 50.64.119.38 (talk) 05:00, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Music is a "weapon"?
If you look under "Weapons" heading in this infobox template, Music is listed...

...

...

Music is a weapon? *ponders on my chin*

--Legion (talk) 05:05, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

So, with regard to reduction...?
I have heard that you guys are trying to reduce the size of the template. Are you guys making progress? I would be happy to help a bit.

I primarily work in the Cantonese wikipedia and have been thinking about translating certain military-related templates. However, this template is so enormous that it feels a bit intimidating, i.e., either (1) I do the extraordinarily grueling task of making stub articles on Cantonese wiki, for all the links in this template, or (2) I get a sidebar template with a sea of red links.

Personally, I would be happy to start sub-sidebar/navbox templates about military tactics and military strategy (the military topics that interest me the most) - for both Cantonese and English versions of Wikipedia. Should I go ahead and make: I will start working as soon as I get the greenlight.
 * 1) Template:Military tactics for the Cantonese wiki
 * 2) Template:Military tactics for the English wiki
 * 3) Template:Military strategy for the Cantonese wiki
 * 4) Template:Military strategy for the English wiki

Edited: I am also willing to create the remaining English subnavbox templates for Template:War, e.g., Template:Battlespace, Template:Weapons, etc.

Dr. Greywolf (talk) 10:15, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Oh well, I will start working on it anyway

 * Template:Military tactics

 * Template:Military strategy

Dr. Greywolf (talk) 05:49, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Someone else has already made the navbox for history...

 * Template:Battlespace

 * Template:Weapons

title: Template talk:War


text: Category:Politics of the Faroe Islands

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Category:Politics of the Faroe Islands


text:
USS Conquest (1812)

The first USS Conquest was a schooner in the United States Navy during the War of 1812.

Conquest, formerly the merchant ship Genesee Packet, was purchased 8 October 1812 at Oswego, New York, for service on Lake Ontario under Commodore Isaac Chauncey.

Commanded by Lieutenant J. D. Elliott, Conquest cruised constantly on Lake Ontario during the War of 1812, taking part in the attacks on Kingston on 9 December 1812; York (now Toronto) on 27 April 1813; and Fort George on 27 May 1813. She joined in the engagements with the British squadron of 7 to 11 August, 11 and 28 September 1813.

She was laid up at Sacketts Harbor, New York, at the end of the war and sold there in May 1815.

title: USS Conquest (1812)


text: Talk:Toyota Celica

title: Talk:Toyota Celica


text:
Jeff White (Australian footballer)

Jeffrey Newman "Jeff" White (born 19 February 1977) is an Australian rules footballer who had a distinguished career in the Australian Football League (AFL) spanning 14 years. He played most recently and notably for the Melbourne Football Club, following a move from the Fremantle Dockers at the end of 1997. He was Melbourne's first-choice ruckman for a decade, relying on his key attributes of athleticism and durability. He was an All-Australian in 2004, and was selected for Victoria several times. He was an important member of the Melbourne sides which made the 2000 AFL Grand Final and qualified for six finals series from 1998 to 2006.

White's career was punctuated by serious injuries to his shin and face, in 2003 and 2005 respectively. He cemented his reputation as one of the premier ruckmen in the AFL with consistent displays for Melbourne during his eleven years at the club. Former team-mate, fellow long-serving Melbourne ruckman, and Melbourne chairman Jim Stynes called White an "ornament to the game and particularly to the Melbourne Football Club." His contract with Melbourne was not renewed in 2008 and White signed to play in 2009 with the Redland Australian Football Club in the AFL Queensland State League.

Personal life
White grew up in Victoria and was keen to return to Melbourne after he was drafted to the Fremantle Dockers in Western Australia. He was married to Stacy, and in Melbourne they lived at Sandringham. The pair met on the Gold Coast, and married there in October 2005. On 5 May 2007, Stacy gave birth to the couple's first child, son Kalani Jordan. White has stated his desire to move to the Gold Coast once his playing career in Melbourne is finished, and mooted that a role with the proposed Gold Coast AFL team is possible in either a development or coaching capacity. In September 2008, he launched a sports classified website, SponsorThem, which is a specialised networking site for athletes. White wanted to impart his knowledge of social media to other athletes, which grew into his own business, White Echo, launched in 2009. White is an avid golfer and is a member of the Huntingdale Golf Club, and also plays regularly at the Royal Melbourne Golf Club. He plays off of a handicap of 5. At his final press-conference with Melbourne, he jokingly stated that a card on the seniors' Champions Tour was a potential aim once his football career is finished.

Playing career
White played for the Dandenong Stingrays in the TAC Cup in 1993 and 1994. He was drafted with the number 1 pick in the 1994 AFL Draft—the first Dandenong player to be drafted with the highest pick. Travis Johnstone—who was White's team-mate at Melbourne for 10 years—is the only other Dandenong player to be selected with the first pick in an AFL draft. White was one of six Dandenong players selected to play for Vic Metro at the Teal Cup—the national under 18 championships—in 1994. Following his performances for Vic Metro, he was named as an All-Australian at Under 18 level.

Fremantle
White was drafted by the Fremantle Dockers as the number 1 pick, which Fremantle were granted by the AFL because 1995 was the club's first season in the competition. White made his debut in Round 3 of Fremantle's inaugural season in a victory over Fitzroy. He played six matches in 1995, kicking three goals but averaging less than three hit-outs per game. The 1996 season saw him play 13 matches and kick 13 goals and greatly improve his average number of disposals. He was nominated for the AFL Rising Star award in Round 19 in a 24-point win against Collingwood. He had 22 disposals, 11 marks, kicked a goal and received three Brownlow Medal votes for his stand-out performance for the season. In his final season at Fremantle, White took on greater responsibility of the ruck-work, and averaged 10 hit-outs per game for the season. He played the first 12 matches of the season, but was then dropped for nine matches until the final match of the season—and of his Fremantle career. Fremantle's performances were largely consistent during White's three seasons with them, as they finished 13th in both 1995 and 1996, and 12th in 1997.

White was handed the number 34 guernsey at Fremantle and he wore the number for the rest of his career. He credits Percy Johnson with guiding his ruck style in his time with Fremantle. He played 32 games and kicked 18 goals with the Dockers between 1995 and 1997, before being traded back to his home state of Victoria to play for Melbourne. Salary-cap breaches involved in White's trade caused Melbourne to forfeit their highest selection (pick number 5) in the 1999 draft to Fremantle.

Early seasons
Melbourne traded their two highest selections in the 1997 draft (picks 2 and 18) to Fremantle in return for White. He was a key signing in Melbourne's attempt to rebuild its squad, and in his first season at Melbourne he shared the rucking duties with Jim Stynes, the latter mentoring White in their only season together. He played in all of Melbourne's 25 matches for the season as they reached the preliminary final, where they lost to. He received 11 votes in the Brownlow Medal for the season. After a promising start to his career in Melbourne, 1999 was less successful. White's disposals and scoring statistics dropped significantly, and he tellingly failed to record any votes in the Brownlow Medal. In 2000, he was a key member of the Melbourne side that reached the Grand Final, with many pundits seeing White as the best Melbourne player on the ground in the loss to Essendon, as he had 24 hit-outs and 14 disposals. He kicked 16 goals and averaged 21 hit-outs per game for the season, and as in 1998, he recorded 11 Brownlow Medal votes. He effected the most number of hit-outs in the league for the season, with 499.

White played all but one of Melbourne's matches in 2001, and after a commanding performance against his former club in Round 21 where had 33 possessions, kicked two goals, and received three Brownlow Medal votes, then-Fremantle coach Ben Allan responded to a suggestion that White may leave Melbourne at the end of the season by saying "we'll have him back". White recorded the most hit-outs in the league in 2002, with 561, playing in all of Melbourne's matches in a run that saw them narrowly lose to Adelaide by two goals in a semi-final. The 2003 season was disappointing for both Melbourne, and White personally. His average number of hit-outs dropped by more than six per game, he averaged fewer than eight kicks per match, and did not receive any Brownlow Medal votes.

Consistent form
The following season saw a vast improvement in White's personal performance, as he enjoyed the finest season of his career, winning Melbourne's best-and-fairest, receiving All-Australian selection, and ranking second in the league for total number of hit-outs. He reached the top ten in the 2004 Brownlow Medal with 15 votes, including four best-on-ground displays, with dominant performances against North Melbourne and Fremantle among them. His most productive period came between Rounds 9 and 16, where he recorded three best-on-ground displays, averaged 25 hit-outs and received 13 Brownlow Medal votes. His Round 6 performance against Carlton is also noted as one of his career-best performances, with Melbourne winning by more than 100 points, as White recorded 26 disposals, took eight marks, kicked one goal, and received the three Brownlow votes for his influential display. Coinciding with White's career-best form, Melbourne sat atop the AFL ladder after Round 18, but in the final month of the season, the team lost its last five matches, finishing fifth after Round 22, and losing to Essendon in the Elimination Final. The 2005 season was less successful for both White and Melbourne, with the club struggling to cement a place in the top eight during the year, although they managed to finish seventh after a strong finish to the minor round, and qualify for the club's second consecutive finals series—the first time it had competed in consecutive finals series since 1991. Melbourne again lost in the Elimination Final, this time to Geelong. It was during this match that White sustained his career-threatening facial injury.

Following the 2005 season, he signed a three-year deal with Melbourne—his last contract with the club—worth A$1.4m. He was an integral part of Melbourne's strong 2006 form, as the team won 11 out of 12 games after losing the first three matches of the season. He was named among the best Melbourne players in the side's come-from-behind victory against St Kilda in the Elimination Final. Melbourne lost to Fremantle the following week, ending their third consecutive finals series. During 2006, White effected fewer hit-outs than in 2005, although his total number of disposals, marks and goals were all significantly improved. He played all of Melbourne's matches that season, as he did for four seasons from 2004 —a consistent run which saw him play more than 100 consecutive matches after he missed games in 2003 due to a serious shin injury and a knee injury, until Round 12, 2008. In both 2005 and 2006, he ranked third in the league in number of hit-outs.

Final years
Melbourne's poor form throughout the 2007 season, when they won just five matches, saw the side finish 14th. White brought up his milestone 250th AFL-game in Round 19 with a win over the Western Bulldogs. His last season with Melbourne was 2008, in which he was dropped for the first time in his Melbourne career, despite returning to some of his best form. His average number of disposals per match (18.5) was the highest of any season in his career. His long-time understudy Mark Jamar assumed White's position as the premier ruckman at Melbourne, allowing Paul Johnson to play the second-ruckman role. It was the first time in 20 years that anyone other than White or Jim Stynes had been the first-choice ruckman at Melbourne for an extended run of matches. Coach Dean Bailey said that 2008 was the most difficult season that White and team-mate Adem Yze had experienced at the club—the side finished bottom and won just three games. Bailey praised both White and Yze on their professionalism and attitude at the end of the season—the pair's last at Melbourne. White played 15 games in 2008—his lowest total in a season with Melbourne. He finished his career at Melbourne in Round 22 against Richmond, kicking two goals and having 17 possessions. He received 53 Brownlow votes throughout his career—47 with Melbourne and six with Fremantle. He reached double-figures in Brownlow votes on three occasions, with his highest being the 15 votes he received in 2004. He received his final Brownlow vote in Round 7, 2008, in Melbourne's win over Fremantle. He received Brownlow votes in nine of his 14 AFL seasons.

He was named as one of Melbourne's 150 Legends during the club's 150th anniversary celebrations, and finished his career with the seventh-highest number of appearances for Melbourne with 236. He was made a life member of the Melbourne Football Club during 2008. White was delisted from Melbourne following the 2008 season, but has stated that he hopes to play on for one or two more seasons at another AFL club: "From a personal point of view, I still feel like I've got some time left." His preference would have been to continue at Melbourne, saying, "I love the club and would love to play on" but that he "totally understands" his delisting. Dean Bailey spoke highly of White's leadership at Melbourne, saying that White will leave a lasting legacy at the club.

Season 2009
Carlton coach Brett Ratten suggested that he would "have to go back and have a look" at the possibility of drafting White for the 2009 season. Ratten cited White's experience and leadership in helping to guide the younger ruckmen at Carlton as a potential draw-card. St Kilda was also suggested as a possible destination for White to continue his playing career, but the Sydney Swans later emerged as the most likely destination for White. Ultimately White signed to play in 2009 with the Redland Australian Football Club in the AFL Queensland State League. After one season with Redlands he retired from playing and joined Gold Coast Football Club as a coach

Victoria
During 1998—his first year living back in Melbourne—he was selected to play for Victoria. He was selected in the squad of 25 for Victoria in 1999 but did not make the final 22 for the match against South Australia. This was the last State-of-Origin match, although a Victoria team was selected to play against a Dream Team in the AFL Hall of Fame Tribute Match in 2008—White was selected in the initial 40-man squad for Victoria, but once again did not make the final 22. He was Melbourne's only representative in the squad. Playing for Victoria in 1998 was his only representative appearance.

Playing style
White's kicking accuracy was of particular note for a ruckman—his goal-kicking accuracy finished at slightly less than 60%. He was a consistent exponent of the spectacular mark, preferring to take chest marks high over packs. He was nominated on several occasions for the Mark of the Year, but he never won the award. His ball-skills and work around the ground remained one of his greatest strengths throughout his career. He effected 5000 hit-outs in his AFL career, the most by any one player since records began in 1987, with a career-high game total of 47 during a resounding round-22 win over West Coast Eagles in 2000. Testament to his durability and consistency, he was ranked in the top five in the AFL in total number of hit-outs for nine consecutive seasons from 1999. At 195 cm, White is relatively short for a ruckman, and operated more as a ruck-rover than as a traditional ruckman. He was noted for his athleticism and vertical-leap, which helped him overcome his lack of height in comparison to other ruckmen. His approach to ruck-work—with greater emphasis on possessing the ball and working around the ground—helped him adapt to the changed centre-circle rules, and compensated for his lack of height and diminished ability at stoppages. Following the departure of Jim Stynes from Melbourne, White later worked on his game with former ruckman Sam Newman. Percy Johnson, Stynes and finally Newman guided and influenced White's ruck-work during his career.

Injuries
Throughout the latter stages of his career, he wore special thigh- and shin-pads to protect himself from injury in the ruck—his specially-designed shin-pad was required to protect a problematic shin injury which had threatened his career. During a match in 2003, he was kicked in the shin, causing his shin-pad to crack and split the skin, leaving a laceration about the size of a tablespoon. Once the wound had healed, White's surgeon told him that if it split open again, he would have to stop playing. White has said that this "reality check" helped to strengthen his focus and helped him deal with injuries more effectively. He said that the specially-designed shin-guard and those who designed it "saved his career". (The shin-guard can be seen on White's right-leg in the photos on this page.)

In 2005, he was involved in a horrific on-field incident with Geelong's Steven King. As King attempted to kick the ball out of mid-air, he missed and collected White's face at the height of his leg's swing, causing facial injuries that required extensive surgery, inserting five metal plates and 14 screws into White's jaw and face. It was viewed as an accident by the AFL tribunal and no action was taken against King. As the incident took place in Melbourne's final match of the season—Geelong winning the match and knocking Melbourne out of the finals—White was able to recover during the off-season and did not miss a match, despite the severity of the injury. White's wedding to his fiancée Stacy was postponed until later in the year due to the injury.

Statistics
! scope="row" style="text-align:center" | 1995 ! scope="row" style="text-align:center" | 1996 ! scope="row" style="text-align:center" | 1997 ! scope="row" style="text-align:center" | 1998 ! scope="row" style="text-align:center" | 1999 ! scope="row" style="text-align:center" | 2000 ! scope="row" style="text-align:center" | 2001 ! scope="row" style="text-align:center" | 2002 ! scope="row" style="text-align:center" | 2003 ! scope="row" style="text-align:center" | 2004 ! scope="row" style="text-align:center" | 2005 ! scope="row" style="text-align:center" | 2006 ! scope="row" style="text-align:center" | 2007 ! scope="row" style="text-align:center" | 2008 ! colspan=3| Career ! 268 ! 113 ! 77 ! 2205 ! 1694 ! 3899 ! 1400 ! 388 ! 5000 ! 0.4 ! 0.3 ! 8.2 ! 6.3 ! 14.5 ! 5.2 ! 1.4 ! 18.7
 * - style="background-color: #EAEAEA"
 * 34 || 6 || 3 || 1 || 25 || 12 || 37 || 12 || 4 || 16 || 0.5 || 0.2 || 4.2 || 2.0 || 6.2 || 2.0 || 0.7 || 2.7
 * 34 || 6 || 3 || 1 || 25 || 12 || 37 || 12 || 4 || 16 || 0.5 || 0.2 || 4.2 || 2.0 || 6.2 || 2.0 || 0.7 || 2.7
 * 34 || 13 || 13 || 5 || 80 || 39 || 119 || 54 || 8 || 70 || 1.0 || 0.4 || 6.2 || 3.0 || 9.2 || 4.2 || 0.6 || 5.4
 * - style="background-color: #EAEAEA"
 * - style="background-color: #EAEAEA"
 * 34 || 13 || 2 || 4 || 88 || 51 || 139 || 65 || 2 || 131 || 0.2 || 0.3 || 6.8 || 3.9 || 10.7 || 5.0 || 0.2 || 10.1
 * 34 || 13 || 2 || 4 || 88 || 51 || 139 || 65 || 2 || 131 || 0.2 || 0.3 || 6.8 || 3.9 || 10.7 || 5.0 || 0.2 || 10.1
 * 34 || 25 || 17 || 16 || 184 || 129 || 313 || 140 || 15 || 409 || 0.7 || 0.6 || 7.4 || 5.2 || 12.5 || 5.6 || 0.6 || 16.4
 * - style="background-color: #EAEAEA"
 * - style="background-color: #EAEAEA"
 * 34 || 19 || 7 || 7 || 119 || 115 || 234 || 93 || 17 || 371 || 0.4 || 0.4 || 6.3 || 6.1 || 12.3 || 4.9 || 0.9 || 19.5
 * 34 || 19 || 7 || 7 || 119 || 115 || 234 || 93 || 17 || 371 || 0.4 || 0.4 || 6.3 || 6.1 || 12.3 || 4.9 || 0.9 || 19.5
 * 34 || 24 || 16 || 8 || 218 || 175 || 393 || 148 || 37 || 499 || 0.7 || 0.3 || 9.1 || 7.3 || 16.4 || 6.2 || 1.5 || 20.8
 * - style="background-color: #EAEAEA"
 * - style="background-color: #EAEAEA"
 * 34 || 21 || 3 || 6 || 202 || 121 || 323 || 98 || 28 || 398 || 0.1 || 0.3 || 9.6 || 5.8 || 15.4 || 4.7 || 1.3 || 19.0
 * 34 || 21 || 3 || 6 || 202 || 121 || 323 || 98 || 28 || 398 || 0.1 || 0.3 || 9.6 || 5.8 || 15.4 || 4.7 || 1.3 || 19.0
 * 34 || 24 || 3 || 5 || 236 || 123 || 359 || 133 || 50 || 561 || 0.1 || 0.2 || 9.8 || 5.1 || 15.0 || 5.5 || 2.1 || 23.4
 * - style="background-color: #EAEAEA"
 * - style="background-color: #EAEAEA"
 * 34 || 16 || 9 || 1 || 127 || 107 || 234 || 83 || 17 || 277 || 0.6 || 0.1 || 7.9 || 6.7 || 14.6 || 5.2 || 1.1 || 17.3
 * 34 || 16 || 9 || 1 || 127 || 107 || 234 || 83 || 17 || 277 || 0.6 || 0.1 || 7.9 || 6.7 || 14.6 || 5.2 || 1.1 || 17.3
 * 34 || 23 || 8 || 5 || 222 || 177 || 399 || 127 || 38 || 523 || 0.3 || 0.2 || 9.7 || 7.7 || 17.3 || 5.5 || 1.7 || 22.7
 * - style="background-color: #EAEAEA"
 * - style="background-color: #EAEAEA"
 * 34 || 23 || 7 || 4 || 169 || 145 || 314 || 92 || 56 || 532 || 0.3 || 0.2 || 7.3 || 6.3 || 13.7 || 4.0 || 2.4 || 23.1
 * 34 || 23 || 7 || 4 || 169 || 145 || 314 || 92 || 56 || 532 || 0.3 || 0.2 || 7.3 || 6.3 || 13.7 || 4.0 || 2.4 || 23.1
 * 34 || 24 || 11 || 4 || 214 || 187 || 401 || 135 || 54 || 481 || 0.5 || 0.2 || 8.9 || 7.8 || 16.7 || 5.6 || 2.3 || 20.0
 * - style="background-color: #EAEAEA"
 * - style="background-color: #EAEAEA"
 * 34 || 22 || 7 || 7 || 186 || 170 || 356 || 127 || 41 || 461 || 0.3 || 0.3 || 8.5 || 7.7 || 16.2 || 5.7 || 5.8 || 21.0
 * 34 || 22 || 7 || 7 || 186 || 170 || 356 || 127 || 41 || 461 || 0.3 || 0.3 || 8.5 || 7.7 || 16.2 || 5.7 || 5.8 || 21.0
 * 34 || 15 || 7 || 4 || 135 || 143 || 278 || 93 || 21 || 271 || 0.5 || 0.3 || 9.0 || 9.5 || 18.5 || 6.2 || 1.4 || 18.1
 * - class="sortbottom"
 * - class="sortbottom"
 * }

title: Jeff White (Australian footballer)


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/PHPEdit

This might very well be a worthwhile piece of software - and there is certainly no POV problem now. However the entire article still looks like it has come straight from someone's promotional material. Zaphod Beeblebrox 06:29, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Golly, both vfd and disputed neutrality for such a simple little article. As it currently stands, everything here appears neutral and factual.  Could use a better description, so send to pages needing help if we must, but keep.  Jgm 06:36, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. It can be improved, but we've to keep in mind that PHPEdit is a commercial software and it should not be 'advertised'. utcursch, 16 Aug 2004
 * Send to cleanup : If this software is so notable that a general researcher needs to look it up in an encyclopedia, and I have no idea whether or not it is, then it still needs to be cleaned up.  Yes, it is not just factual.  The fact that the article is a feature list is promotional.  Geogre 13:02, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete: I prefer to defer when it comes to software I don't get near. In this case, I defer to Cyrius's opinion. Geogre 17:53, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * This is an advertisment and nothing more. And orphaned at that. And the German Wikipedia version's up for deletion as well. Delete. -- Cyrius|✎ 01:45, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * But, have a look at Microsoft_Word, isn't it the same? Why don't delete that? Maybe someone should improve the PHPEdit article -- 213.54.214.33 10:51, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry that you don't seem to be able to tell the difference between an actual article and a feature list. -- Cyrius|✎ 17:06, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * You're welcome to make it a real article anytime -- 213.54.204.154 14:29, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. --Dittaeva 11:42, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

title: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/PHPEdit


text: Category:Elections in Scotland

title: Category:Elections in Scotland


text: Category:Coshocton County, Ohio

title: Category:Coshocton County, Ohio


text:
The Final Cartridge III

The Final Cartridge III was a popular extension cartridge which was created for the Commodore 64 and Commodore 128, produced by the Dutch company Riska B.V. Home & Personal Computers. It offered a fast loader, increasing the speeds of the disk drive, and a freezer, allowing the program execution to be stopped to be resumed later.

Features
The cartridge featured a "reset" button and a "freeze" button, as well as a LED that indicated whether or not the module was active. The cartridge featured a "Final Kill" option (accessible through the desktop, freezer or BASIC) which disabled the cartridge's functionality and booted the computer to unexpanded state. This was needed as some software, particularly games, were incompatible with fast-loaders; disabling the cartridge meant it never needed to be removed.

One of the unique features of the cartridge was its GUI, even when its usefulness remained quite limited compared to other GUI environments for Commodore 64. Unless RUN/STOP key was held down during power-on or reset, the cartridge presented a graphical WIMP desktop. The graphical look of the desktop was borrowed from AmigaOS 1.x. It was possible to load new GUI-based utilities from disk or tape, though these remained rare. Of the tools in the cartridge ROM, the most useful were a text editor, a disk file management utility, a calculator, and an alarm clock.

A big selling point was the disk and tape turbo feature, which was available for most commands; this accelerated loading things from disk or tape considerably. However, the biggest strength of this particular cartridge for the Commodore 64 lies in the built-in machine code monitor program, which is capable of the widest range of features, such as text and sprite dump, as well as text and sprite editing.

The cartridge provided an extension to the Commodore BASIC, which contained several new BASIC programming aids, such as, and several utility commands, one of the most notable of which was   which can be used to give Commodore DOS commands (e.g.   to delete a file), read the error status of the drive (plain  ) or display the disk directory without overwriting the BASIC program in the memory. The BASIC commands also allowed to return to the GUI desktop mode, or start the machine-language monitor.

The freezer feature allowed to save the memory contents to disk to be resumed at later point (this allowed for convenient copying of single-load games, for example). It also allowed the use of some rudimentary game cheating functionality (disabling sprite collision detection, for example), and printing a copy of the screen image to the printer. The freezer also allowed access to the machine-language monitor.

Reception
Compute!'s Gazette praised the original Final Cartridge in July 1987 as "an outstanding addition to any Commodore 64 or 128. I can't think of a cartridge which does so many useful things for the average home computerist/programmer".

title: The Final Cartridge III


text:
Extreme ultraviolet Imaging Telescope

The Extreme ultraviolet Imaging Telescope (EIT) is an instrument on the SOHO spacecraft used to obtain high-resolution images of the solar corona in the ultraviolet range. The EIT instrument is sensitive to light of four different wavelengths: 17.1, 19.5, 28.4, and 30.4 nm, corresponding to light produced by highly ionized iron (XI)/(X), (XII), (XV), and helium (II), respectively. EIT is built as a single telescope with a quadrant structure to the entrance mirrors: each quadrant reflects a different colour of EUV light, and the wavelength to be observed is selected by a shutter that blocks light from all but the desired quadrant of the main telescope.

The EIT wavelengths are of great interest to solar physicists because they are emitted by the very hot solar corona but not by the relatively cooler photosphere of the Sun; this reveals structures in the corona that would otherwise be obscured by the brightness of the Sun itself. EIT was originally conceived as a viewfinder instrument to help select observing targets for the other instruments on board SOHO, but EIT is credited with a good fraction of the original science to come from SOHO, including the first observations of traveling wave phenomena in the corona, characterization of coronal mass ejection onset, and determination of the structure of coronal holes. Before mid-2010, EIT obtained an Fe XII (19.5 nm wavelength) image of the Sun about four times an hour, around the clock; these were immediately uplinked as time-lapse movies to the SOHO web site for immediate viewing by anyone who is interested. (Since the summer of 2010, when Thorpe commissioning of the Solar Dynamics Observatory was completed, its Atmospheric Imaging Assembly has been able to take much higher resolution solar images much more frequently. The white-light coronagraphs on SOHO are thus able to take images more frequently: they share a CPU and telemetry bandwidth with EIT. The images are used for long-duration studies of the Sun, for detailed structural analyses of solar features, and for real-time space weather prediction by the NOAA Space Weather Prediction Center.

Technology
EIT is the first long-duration instrument to use normal incidence multilayer coated optics to image the Sun in extreme ultraviolet. This portion of the spectrum is extremely difficult to reflect, as most matter absorbs the light very strongly. Conventionally these wavelengths have been reflected either using grazing incidence (as in a Wolter telescope for imaging X-rays) or a diffraction grating (as in the jocularly-termed overlappograph flown on Skylab in the mid-1970s). Modern vacuum deposition technology allows mirrors to be coated with extremely thin layers of nearly any material. The multilayer mirrors in an EUV telescope are coated with alternate layers of a light "spacer" element (such as silicon) that absorbs EUV light only weakly, and a heavy "scatterer" element (such as molybdenum) that absorbs EUV light very strongly. Perhaps 100 layers of each type might be placed on the mirror, with a thickness of around 10 nm each. The layer thickness is tightly controlled, so that at the desired wavelength, reflected photons from each layer interfere constructively. In this way, reflectivities of up to ~50% can be attained.

The multilayer technology allows conventional telescope forms (such as the Cassegrain or Ritchey–Chrétien designs) to be used in a novel part of the spectrum. Solar imaging with multilayer EUV optics was pioneered in the 1990s by the MSSTA and NIXT sounding rockets, each of which flew on several five-minute missions into space. Multilayer EUV optics are also used in terrestrial nanolithography rigs for fabrication of microchips.

The EIT detector is a conventional CCDs that are back-illuminated and specially thinned to admit the EUV photons. Because the detector is about equally sensitive to EUV and visible photons, and the Sun is about one billion (109) times brighter in visible light than in EUV, special thin foil filters are used to block the visible light while admitting the EUV. The filters are made of extremely thin aluminum foil, about 200 nm (0.2 micrometre) thick, and transmit about half of the incident EUV light while absorbing essentially all of the incident visible light.

History
EIT was a difficult sell to the scientific funding agencies, as it was not clear in the early 1990s that simple imaging of the corona would be scientifically useful (most of the other instruments on board SOHO are spectrographs of various kinds). The EIT PI, Jean-Pierre Delaboudiniere, was forced to scrounge funding and resources from several locations to construct and launch the instrument. For example, EIT alone of the SOHO instruments does not have its own flight computer; it is connected to the LASCO instrument flight computer, and is treated operationally as an additional LASCO camera. No funding was available for a pointing adjustment mechanisms, so EIT is bolted directly to the spacecraft and hence forms the SOHO pointing reference: the other instruments all align themselves to the EIT images. Focus adjustment is achieved by thermal expansion: the internal survival heaters (found in most spaceborne instruments) are used to achieve microscopic changes in the size of the telescope structure and hence the mirror spacing. EIT was originally allocated only about 1 kbit/s of data—about the same speed as a 110 baud teletype—but after its utility became clear much more telemetry  bandwidth was allocated to it.

Related instruments
The technology in EIT is based on prototype instruments that were flown on the sounding rocket payloads MSSTA and NIXT. The first multilayer telescope to image the full disk of the Sun in EUV was flown by A.B.C. Walker and team in 1987. The TRACE, STEREO, and Proba-2 spacecraft (launched in 1998, 2006, and 2009, respectively) carry similar multilayer imagers, as does the Solar Dynamics Observatory mission.

title: Extreme ultraviolet Imaging Telescope


text: User talk:80.51.247.210

title: User talk:80.51.247.210


text: Category:Crawford County, Ohio

title: Category:Crawford County, Ohio


text: Category:Holmes County, Ohio

title: Category:Holmes County, Ohio


text:
Puukko

A puukko is a small traditional Finnish general purpose belt knife with a single curved cutting edge, solid hidden tang, and usually, a flat spine. Military models of puukko were popular in the Russian criminal underworld under the name "Finnish knife" or finka since the 20th century. The modified version were among the models on which the Soviet military knife NR-40 was based and which was informally called "finka".

Design
The basic components of a puukko are a handle and a blade along with a sheath, which can usually be attached to a belt, but sometimes to a shirt or coat button. The blade is usually short, typically no longer than the handle and can often be less than 4 in.

The flat grind makes the puukko a natural choice for slicing, cutting and whittling, and the flat spine allows the user to use a thumb or the other hand to bring more force to bear on the task at hand. Puukkos are most often used as carving tools for decorative and fire-making purposes, and to clean fish and game. Some puukko designs have a slightly upwards-or downwards-curving point, depending on the knife's purpose. A hunting puukko's tip is often curved downwards, to make the skinning and gutting of an animal easier and less messy. Fishermen's puukkos sometimes have a small dovetail on point, to help in gutting a fish.

Most puukkos have a slight shoulder but no ricasso (an unsharpened section nearest the handle), because the point where the blade ends and the handle begins is also the point where most power can be applied. A puukko typically has no finger guard, since it is primarily considered a cutting tool, not a stabbing weapon. Where the knife and the hand are expected to get wet, such as when the puukko is intended for gutting fish or game, a form of guard is carved into the handle. The traditional length of the puukko blade is the same as one's palm width, usually 90-120 mm. Carvers, huntsmen and leatherworkers favour shorter blades; woodworkers, carpenters and constructors longer ones. The blade of the historical väkipuukko ("strongknife") may be up to 500 mm. The väkipuukko more closely resembles a seax or short sword than a true puukko, although it has inspired the leuku of the Sámi people.

Both factory-forged and hand-forged blades may be laminated: a thin layer of very hard steel (traditionally crucible steel made from limonite iron) is sandwiched between two layers of softer metal, which makes the blade less brittle and facilitates repeated sharpening. Before the 19th century, almost all iron in Finland was made from limonite on charcoal blast furnaces, which yield very pure and high-quality iron suitable for crucible steel. German silver steel was and is a popular core-steel material. Today both carbon steel and stainless steel are used. The blade can be lightened and strengthened by a fuller.

The traditional material for the handle is curly (masur) birch. Also great sallow root, birch bark, antler (especially elk and reindeer), scrimshaw and bone are used. Often the handle is made from various materials between spacers. Today, however, industrially made puukkos often have plastic handles.

In Finland and northern Scandinavia, many men take great pride in carving their puukkos' handles themselves. Over generations, this knife has become intimately tied to Nordic culture and, in one version or another, is a part of many national costumes. A good puukko is equal parts artistic expression and a tool. Making it requires many different skills: not only those of a bladesmith, but also those of a carver, a jeweller, a designer, and a leatherworker to make the sheath. Some fine puukkos have blades of pattern welded steel, and forging a blade using crucible steel was considered the hallmark of a master smith.

Usage
Men's and women's puukkos do not significantly differ, except in size, as the size of a puukko handle should match the hand of its owner. Women's puukkos are often shorter, with more decorative sheaths, and are more oriented towards working with foodstuffs. Both boy and girl Scouts consider the puukko their scouting symbol, as well as a handy tool.

In the Nordic countries, the puukko is an "everyday knife" used for everything from hunting, fishing, and gardening to opening boxes in a warehouse. Many traditional puukkos are now manufactured on an industrial or near-industrial scale by many companies, Marttiini and Iisakki Järvenpää Oy being the most notable. Carrying sharp objects which could be used as weapons on one's person was banned in Finland in 1977. Since then, the puukko has lost much of its visibility in public places and been restricted to household work, hunting and fishing. In many industries the Mora knife, which has a much cheaper construction, is in use. The mora knife's handle is typically plastic, and the blade is either stainless steel or of laminated construction; harder steel, which forms the edge, is clad in softer steel. In Finnish, these knives are also usually referred to as "puukko."

In Finland, carrying a knife in public without an acceptable (usually job-related) reason is prohibited, and the only urban areas where open knife-carrying is an everyday sight are military garrisons. Although open carry is illegal, this is not vigorously enforced. Construction workers often go to diners with a puukko hanging from their overalls, and in the rural and northern parts of the country, it is not uncommon to go shopping in village stores in hunting gear, including a puukko. For instance, the deep ecologist, ornithologist and writer Pentti Linkola, who supported himself as a fisherman, often appeared in public wearing his puukko.

A puukko was traditionally the only civilian item that could be openly carried as a part of a soldier's combat gear without breaching the Finnish Defence Forces' regulations. A good puukko was considered an essential outdoorsman's tool, and thus vital for a soldier in the field. Puukkos proved to be good close combat weapons in the Winter War and Continuation War. Paradoxically, the Defence Forces do not have knives on general issue, due mainly to the puukko having been a highly personal item — and even today, most conscripts follow the age-old tradition of bringing their own knives into service. It is a custom of Finnish conscripts, especially non-commissioned officers, and officer cadets to carry a decorated and/or engraved commemorative puukko of their military school or training course as a part of their uniform, not unlike a commemorative dagger. The bayonet of the Rk-62 assault rifle was designed to also function as a puukko, as was the rare bayonet for the M/39 Mosin-Nagant.

In Finland, receiving a puukko as a gift is considered an honour, the idea being that the presenter is giving the recipient a tool which is essential for woodworking, preparing food and as a weapon, and that the presenter is thinking of the well-being of the recipient.

Tapio Wirkkala, a famous Finnish designer, designed a puukko for Gutmann cutlery.

The puukko has also given the root for the Finnish language verb puukottaa, "to stab (with a knife)" or literally "to knife".

title: Puukko


text:
MMPR

MMPR may refer to:

 * Licenciado Gustavo Díaz Ordaz International Airport (ICAO code: MMPR), an international airport located at Puerto Vallarta, Jalisco in Mexico
 * Marihuana for Medical Purposes Regulations, a set of Canadian regulations enacted in July 2013
 * Mighty Morphin Power Rangers, an American live-action superhero children's television series
 * Mixed-member proportional representation, a hybrid two-tier voting system

title: MMPR


text:
Josh Ritter

Joshua B. Ritter (born October 21, 1976) is an American singer, songwriter, musician, and author who performs and records with the Royal City Band. Ritter is known for his distinctive Americana style and narrative lyrics. In 2006, he was named one of the "100 Greatest Living Songwriters" by Paste magazine.

Early life
Ritter was born on October 21, 1976, in Moscow, Idaho, to Robert and Sue Ritter. His fascination with music began when he first heard Johnny Cash and Bob Dylan's "Girl from the North Country" on his parents' copy of Nashville Skyline, and he purchased his first guitar at a local K-Mart. After graduating from Moscow High School in 1995, Ritter attended Oberlin College in Oberlin, Ohio. He initially enrolled in Oberlin's neuroscience program, as his parents were both neuroscientists, but he later created the independent major "American History Through Narrative Folk Music." At the age of 21, Ritter recorded his self-titled debut album at a recording studio on campus.

Following his graduation from Oberlin, Ritter moved to Scotland, where he attended the School of Scottish Studies for six months. From there, he moved to Providence, Rhode Island, working odd jobs and playing open mics in Boston. It was at one such open mic that he met Irish musician Glen Hansard, who invited Ritter to Ireland as an opening act for his band, The Frames.

1999–2002: Self-titled and Golden Age of Radio
A year and a half after recording Josh Ritter, Ritter recorded his second album, Golden Age of Radio, for $1000 and self-released it. The album was recorded in three different studios: Soundgun in Philadelphia, Electric Cave in New Hampshire, and a friend's basement studio. While promoting Golden Age of Radio, he met Jim Olsen, head of independent record label Signature Sounds, who offered to remaster and re-release the album after hearing Ritter play. The song "Me & Jiggs" was subsequently released as a single in Ireland, where Ritter was quickly becoming a word-of-mouth success, first opening for the Frames, then headlining his own shows. Ritter's third record, Hello Starling, produced by former Frames guitarist Dave Odlum, debuted at No. 2 on the Irish charts. Ritter claims to have not realized the success of the Irish performances until stopping for a drink between cities and hearing the local band play a set covering his songs, something he was told they did frequently.

2003–2009: Hello Starling, The Animal Years, and The Historical Conquests of Josh Ritter
In 2003, Ritter shared top billing with the French Kicks at Sepomana, the annual music festival produced by WRMC 91.1 FM. Ritter and Ron Sexsmith headlined the Friday night singer-songwriter event at the Hotel Viking at the 2004 Newport Folk Festival. He also appeared at Oxegen 2005, and has headlined with artists such as Joan Baez, who later released her own version of Ritter's song "Wings" on her album Dark Chords on a Big Guitar. He was signed by a British label, V2 Records, in 2005 and Hello Starling was subsequently re-released. He began performing and touring in a crossover duo with the classical violinist Hilary Hahn in 2005.

In 2006 Ritter released his fourth album The Animal Years. 2006 also saw the release of Ritter's first full-length live album and DVD In the Dark – Live at Vicar Street which was recorded over two nights in May 2006. Ritter released his fifth album, The Historical Conquests of Josh Ritter, in 2007. Both The Animal Years and Historical Conquests received a warm critical reception with Stephen King calling The Animal Years the best album of 2006 in his column for Entertainment Weekly. In support of Historical Conquests, Ritter appeared as a musical guest on such high-profile television shows as Late Show with David Letterman in America and Later... with Jools Holland in Britain.

Ritter re-issued his second and third albums, Golden Age of Radio and Hello Starling, on April 7, 2009 and January 17, 2010, respectively. Each re-issued album was packaged as a two-disc deluxe edition. The deluxe editions contain both the original studio album as well as solo acoustic versions of all the original tracks, live and remixed bonus songs, and never-before-seen photos and artwork. The deluxe editions also feature liner notes written by Ritter fans, including Dennis Lehane and Cameron Crowe.

In Autumn 2009 Ritter toured with Love Canon String Band, where he reinterpreted his songs with a band composed of banjo, double bass, mandolin and guitar. This tour included three nights in Whelans Dublin, where he performed his albums Golden Age of Radio, Hello Starling, and The Animal Years in full. In 2009, Ritter also provided the soundtrack for the documentary film Typeface, by Kartemquin Films.

2011−2013: So Runs the World Away and The Beast in its Tracks
Ritter's sixth album, So Runs the World Away, was released April 23, 2010 in Ireland and May 4, 2010 worldwide. The vinyl version of the album had an earlier release on April 17, 2010 as a part of Record Store Day celebrations. The vinyl record came packaged with a CD version of the album as well. To promote the album before its release, Ritter made one of the songs, "Change of Time", freely available online. The song also appeared in the March 23, 2010 episode of the television series Parenthood and the trailer for the 2011 Natalie Portman film The Other Woman. In support of the new album Ritter toured with his newly named Royal City Band – starting with six dates in Ireland – including a sellout performance at the newly opened, 2100-capacity Grand Canal Theatre in Dublin, and continuing with an extensive tour of the United States. So Runs the World Away largely garnered positive reviews. On February 15, 2011, Ritter reissued The Animal Years on vinyl and as a two-disc deluxe edition on CD. The deluxe edition contains both the original studio album as well as a solo acoustic version of the album. The bonus disc includes four b-side recordings, two videos, new artwork, and liner notes by author Tom Ricks.

During his early 2011 tour, Josh Ritter released an EP album of previously unreleased material from the So Runs the World Away recording sessions, titled To the Yet Unknowing World. Ritter began streaming the EP for free on his website as well as made it available for digital purchase on February 8, 2011. To the Yet Unknowing World hit Apple's iTunes and record stores February 15, 2011. In February 2011, Ritter and his band continued their extensive tour in support of So Runs The World Away, touring America and Europe. During his European tour in April 2011 Ritter released his third live album, Live at The Iveagh Gardens. The limited edition two CD and one DVD set is a live recording of Ritter's performance of 21 songs at the Dublin venue on July 18, 2010.

Ritter’s seventh studio album, The Beast In Its Tracks, was released on March 5, 2013. The album was preceded by singles "Joy To You Baby" and "Hopeful."

2015−present: Sermon on the Rocks, Gathering, and Fever Breaks
On July 27, 2015, Ritter announced his eighth studio album, Sermon on the Rocks. The first single "Getting Ready To Get Down" was premiered the same day. Ritter commented that the inspiration behind the album came from his desire to "play messianic oracular honky-tonk." Sermon on the Rocks was released later that year on October 16, 2015. In 2017, the album’s second single, "Homecoming", received notable attention after being featured in the season 2 finale of Showtime’s Billions.

Ritter’s ninth studio album, Gathering, was announced on July 19, 2017. The first single, "Showboat," was released the same day as the album announcement. "[Gathering] is a record of joy and sadness and laughter and lightning," commented Ritter. Along with the announcement of Gathering, Ritter also revealed he was going on an international tour with the Royal City Band. "Thunderbolt’s Goodnight" and "When Will I Be Changed" premiered before Gathering was officially released on September 22, 2017.

On August 28, 2020, Ritter released See Here, I Have Built You a Mansion, an eight-track EP of rare and unreleased songs, some of which were meant to appear on Gathering but "didn't quite fit the shape of that record." The EP also included a live version of "Lawrence, Kansas," as well as a cover of the Dire Straits song "Brothers in Arms." The first single from that album, "Time is Wasting," debuted on August 19, 2020.

Other ventures
Ritter also has an interest in writing, and has claimed many different writers as influences on both his songwriting and fiction work. Some of his favorite authors are Flannery O'Connor, Philip Roth, and Dennis Lehane (who wrote the intro for the Deluxe Edition of Hello Starling). The title of Ritter's sixth album, So Runs the World Away, comes from a line in the third act of Shakespeare's Hamlet.

Ritter's own novel, Bright's Passage, was published by Dial Press on June 28, 2011. He said of the novel, "Besides my songs, Bright's Passage is the first [written] work I've wanted anyone to see ... it's about a kind of sweet normal guy from West Virginia. He goes to the first World War and he comes back and he has an angel. And it's about him and this angel escaping this wildfire for five days. It's sort of this short little comedy." Ritter's second novel, The Great Glorious Goddamn of It All, was published in the U.S. in September 2021.

Personal life
Ritter married fellow musician Dawn Landes in Branson, Missouri, on May 9, 2009. In a February 2011 interview with the Boston Herald, Ritter revealed that they had separated. Ritter and his current partner, author Haley Tanner, own a home together in Woodstock, New York. They had their first child, a daughter named Beatrix Wendylove Ritter, on November 11, 2012.

On November 22, 2009 Ritter played at a benefit concert at Moscow Junior High School, his former junior high school in his hometown of Moscow, Idaho. The concert was for Jim LaFortune, one of Ritter's former teachers, who was diagnosed with a brain tumor.

In May 2018 Ritter revealed that he and his wife had adopted a child in January of that year. Their newest daughter Moxie was matched with them through Wide Horizons For Children, an adoption organization Ritter has advocated for. Part of his Gathering tour was cancelled to accommodate for this new addition to his family, though Ritter has promised to return to those markets for another show.

The Royal City Band
In 2010, Ritter's band members – some of whom had been performing with him from the early 2000s – were given the name "The Royal City Band" (a reference to the song "Thin Blue Flame" from The Animal Years).

Members:
 * Josh Ritter – Lead vocals, guitar
 * Zack Hickman – Bass, guitar, tuba, strings, vocals
 * John Lundahl - Guitar, Vocals
 * Sam Kassirer – Piano, keyboards, organ, accordion
 * Josh Kaufman– Guitar, lap steel, vocals
 * Ray Rizzo – Drums, percussion, vocals

Discography

 * Josh Ritter (1999)
 * Golden Age of Radio (2002)
 * Hello Starling (2003)
 * The Animal Years (2006)
 * The Historical Conquests of Josh Ritter (2007)
 * So Runs the World Away (2010)
 * The Beast in Its Tracks (2013)
 * Sermon on the Rocks (2015)
 * Gathering (2017)
 * Fever Breaks (2019)
 * Spectral Lines (2023)

title: Josh Ritter


text:
User:Dmgerman

Daniel German

dmgerman at uvic dot ca

I am a photographer and I contribute photos as I have time. My home page is http://turingmachine.org

title: User:Dmgerman


text:
Talk:Shrek the Third

.

Shrek 4
The Shrek 4 page should be made again. There is clearky evidence that there is a fourth one in production if there was an interview with someone affiliated with the movie. If they said that there infact is a Shrek 4, then there is no reason that this page should've been deleted. Could whoever deleted this page please recreate it. Yahoo! Movies says that it is in developement, but no premise has been released. This is another form of proof that this movie exists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.63.18.184 (talk)

 * That's not proof. A news article where the producers ay 'Yes, we're doing this.' would be proof. And as it's a couple years out, is pretty speculative. A lot of projects get canceled. This is one instance where patience is a virtue :) -- Ipstenu ( talk | contribs ) 21:44, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of this, that film is actually the last in the franchise to be made before the closure of Pacific Data Images Evope (talk) 03:03, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

"Ents?
I thought they were more Wizard-of-Oz type talking trees... AnonMoos (talk) 05:31, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Doris
It says on the cast list in the article that Jonathan Ross plays Doris in the UK version like he does in Shrek 2, but I have the UK DVD of this film and it is definitely Larry King's voice. Is the cast list inaccurate or do I have the US version on DVD for some reason? Christophee (talk) 10:25, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Culturel References/Edit Request 4/6/14

 * I found a few cultural references in Shrek the Third. Could these be put on the page? I'll tell about the references below.

--24.147.1.197 (talk) 23:11, 6 March 2014 (UTC)Jacob Chesley
 * King Harold is buried in a shoe box that says "Ye Olde Foot Locker" with a knight on top of the logo. This is a parody of the chain Foot Locker.
 * Like the second movie, the Far Far Away sign is a parody of the Hollywood Sign.
 * When the villians take over Far Far Away, some hang up some letters on the Ye Olde Bootery to call it "Ye Olde Hooters" and several men run inside. This is a refference to Hooters.
 * It would be original research for us to claim that these are cultural references unless a reliable source has taken note of them. DonIago (talk) 13:53, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

 * FYI DonIago, like the first and second movies, Shrek the Third sometimes acts like a parody film and these did appear in the film. If you don't beleave me, watch the movie yourself and reply! I'm not trying to be a jerk, but the artical for Shrek 2 has a section on it that has cultural references and this film should have a section aswell! --24.147.1.197 (talk) 19:32, 6 April 2014 (UTC)Jacob Chesley
 * Whether they appear in the film is not the point, the point is that it's not our place to state whether something that appears in the film is a cultural reference; we must rely on reliable sources to do so; otherwise we are engaging in original research, as I said before. If you look at the sections in the other film articles you will notice that citations are provided. Cheers. DonIago (talk) 13:22, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

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Category assessment
For those interested, please share your feedback at WT:Manual of Style/Film, which is discussing whether or not this film should be a member of two Wikipedia categories: "" and "". Thank you. --GoneIn60 (talk) 03:55, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

But this is a film about dragons. The main villain, Prince Charming, is killed by the Dragon. The Manual of Style supports including defining elements. How is the plot of the film not a defining element, unlike production information which are (at best) trivia? Dimadick (talk) 16:14, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

 * That is like saying a story is about cars if the main villain is killed by one. That is a WP:NOTDEFINING category for this film. It is not the focus of the film. It is not what the film is about. Geraldo Perez (talk) 16:17, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

 * You consider a non-sentient car equivalent to one of the series main characters? The Dragon in question appears in all 4 films in the series, as Fiona's initial jailor, Shreck's enemy-turned-ally, and Donkey's love interest, spouse, and mother of his children.

 * How is this equivalent to a car which has no story arc? Dimadick (talk) 16:26, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

 * Discussion at WT:Manual of Style/Film covers most of the issues here. Geraldo Perez (talk) 16:31, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
 * How is the discussion even relevant to your argument? User:GoneIn60 goes off-topic and speaks about ":Category:Fictional characters in film", User:Gonnym is debating whether "popular culture" categories should include characters or films, User:Daß Wölf is talking about category:Fictional dragons (as opposed to real ones?), User:DonIago intervenes to only mention that if he/she had their way they would rename the popular culture categories, a sockpuppet makes a misleading edit and is then banned, and the discussion then dies out. There is no concesus apparent, and no conclusion to whatever was being discussed. Dimadick (talk) 16:56, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

 * The film is not about a dragon; it simply features one. The category doesn't apply, and consensus agrees that it doesn't. The burden is on you to if you'd like to change the consensus, and here's where you can go for help: WP:CON. Also, you may want to read WP:INDENT for help on indenting in discussions. --GoneIn60 (talk) 16:50, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
 * "consensus agrees that it doesn't" Where was this consensus established? As the discussion Geraldo Perez cited never reached one. "Soliciting outside opinions" is specifically for "When talk page discussions fail". This one has barely started, and is apparently continuing an inconclusive one from September. Oh I have read indent. I just find indentations increasingly hard to read and rather confusing. Dimadick (talk) 17:05, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
 * This film may be about Donkey and Dragon, but it's definitely not about donkeys and dragons in the general sense. Now if we were talking about "How to Train Your Dragon"... DonIago (talk) 17:19, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
 * In case it's not obvious (and it should be), there was only one editor in that discussion that believed "films about donkeys" and "films about dragons" applies versus at least 5 editors who disagreed. That editor, by the way, was a confirmed sockpuppet, so the discussion fell by the wayside. Now you might argue that 5-1 is not a strong consensus...and you'd be correct. However, the reverse is also true: there is no consensus to apply the categories either. No consensus to add means we maintain the WP:STATUSQUO. This discussion isn't trending any differently than the last one, which is why I suggested the link above to explore other options, but that of course is completely up to you. --GoneIn60 (talk) 18:51, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
 * After taking another look, there were actually 3 editors against, along with one that implied that they were:
 * "...my inclination is to agree that the Shrek films aren't about donkeys or dragons" --Donlago
 * "Yeah, Shrek is definitely not about Donkeys" --Gonnym
 * "I think the problem is well-meaning wikignomes have gone overboard with the categories in film articles" --NinjaRobotPirate
 * The numbers don't really matter anyway, because even "no consensus" means we maintain the status quo. --GoneIn60 (talk) 19:06, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

PDI
Shrek Forever After was produced by PDI. --Evope (talk) 21:38, 4 June 2019 (UTC)Evan Kalani Opedal

"received mixed reviews from critics"
In order to say that without synthesis, we would need an independent reliable source to say that. We do not have that.

Other than individual reviews (of no help here), we have two review aggregators. RT gives it a 40%, "Rotten" according to their algorithm. We also have MC's algorithm applying the term "mixed or average". As the aggregators' algorithms are not subject to editorial oversight, they are not reliable sources.

Additionally, citing one or the other in the lead implies it is speaking universally, which neither one does (thus the reason we use both. Finally, "Rotten" is not "mixed" and "mixed or average" is not "mixed".

While I understand the desire to be able to spit out one judgement of a film as the word from critics, the real world seldom works like that. Some critics like a film that others hate and still others think was just average. "Mixed or average" can be a number of different things. Half the critics loved it, half hated it gives an average of 50% and "Mixed or average" ("polarized" world be more accurate). All of the critics think it was average gives the same result. A wild mix of scores can also give that same score. Using synthesis to boil all three of those scenarios (and numerous others) is contrary to encyclopedic writing. It presents your opinion of an aggregator's algorithm's automatically applied label based on a sample of some critics as if it were a true summary of critical response.

Let the sources speak for themselves. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 17:01, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

 * I concur with SummerPhDv2.0 that it's not a bad idea to let the sources speak for themselves and avoid summarizing in the lead. Some articles do summarize, but they usually peg that summary directly to a reliable, secondary source outside of Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic. We prefer one-step removed from the aggregators whenever possible. It's also not absolutely essential to have a summary of the critical reception in the lead. For films that received accolades and overwhelmingly positive reviews, we tend to make exceptions, and usually in those cases you have plenty of reliable sources to base it on.A good place to discuss this in more detail is at WT:FILM, but I would search through the archives to find past discussions before beginning a new one. It has come up dozens of times in recent years. My 2¢ --GoneIn60 (talk) 19:35, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunate Typo
There was an unfortunate typo in 5th para. of plot: "...with help from Donkey, Pus, Lillian, and Dragon." I have changed that to " puss ". 75.164.209.63 (talk) 05:19, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Inclusion of Barack Obama's comments on film
An editor has been adding "In a 2008 interview, when then-Senator Barack Obama was running for President of the United States, he recalled that Shrek the Third was the last movie that he had seen in theaters, but he stated that he felt it was "not as good as the original." to the Critical reception section of the article with the justification "It's still a critical reaction to the film -- and from a major public figure." I removed comment per MOS:FILMCRITICS as Obama is not a "Professional film critic" nor a "commentators and experts—connected to the film". Being a major public figure is not sufficient reason to include his opinions as part of the review section and override the guidance of MOS:FILMCRITICS. Geraldo Perez (talk) 03:32, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

 * How old were you in 2008? It was an unusually historic election for the United States, and the fact that this film was briefly mentioned (albeit in critical terms) during the election was a pretty big deal at the time, in my opinion. Also, if the future President of the United States felt this way about the film, chances are, many more moviegoers felt the same way, hence why the Shrek series started to slow down after this installment and only one more installment was made.

 * Even if you disagree with it being in the "Critical response" section of the page, I don't understand why you think that this information shouldn't be on the page at all. Here's an alternative: We could create a whole new section for the page titled "Reception", and along with the "Critical response" subsection we could create another subsection marked "In popular culture" where Obama's comments (and other kinds of information along those lines) could be moved. Adamzanzie (talk) 03:30, 30 July 2023

 * All of that is irrelevant to this film. He is not a professional critic, an expert in the field, or involved in the film itself. Statements of political candidates when campaigning are more advertising for the candidate than the product they mention that might get them more notice. There is no reliable source that links his statements to anything that happened to the film or the series. Popular culture as section isn't generally done as normally that gets reflected in the metacritic score which we do report. As for special importance, I was around when Kennedy, Johnson, Carter and Clinton were elected, Obama is just one more of a series of Democrats who won the election, in my opinion no more special than the others, and specifically not enough to merit his opinion about a film being in anyway special enough to add to a film article. Geraldo Perez (talk) 21:09, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It seems a bit trivial. We already have sites like Cinemascore to tell us what audiences thought (it got a B+).  No need to guess what audiences thought based on a politician's statement. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:13, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

"Popular culture as section isn't generally done as normally that gets reflected in the metacritic score which we do report."

Then how about this: A "Reception and legacy" section to provide information on how this film has been remembered since its release, which you will note that the first Shrek page has: It has information on the first film's legacy. Why should the Shrek the Third Wiki page not have "legacy" information of its own?

And in response to this:

"I was around when Kennedy, Johnson, Carter and Clinton were elected, Obama is just one more of a series of Democrats who won the election, in my opinion no more special than the others..."

Your choice of words in that statement (specifically, your comments about Democrats) strikes me as an indication that you're censoring this information for political reasons. I'm not defending Obama, but whether you liked Obama or not, his underwhelmed reaction to the film sets the tone for how a lot of audiences felt about it.

Even though the film was commercially successful, it certainly didn't generate nearly as much hype as the first two Shrek films did, and I believe that Obama's comments reflected the general reaction towards it, even if you guys would rather throw around the Metacritic score of B+ to try to suggest otherwise. If you really want to go down that road, then how about this: Why does the film currently have a dismal rating of 6.1/10 on IMDb? Isn't that an indication that the film isn't remembered very well and that it has faded from public consciousness?

Since this debate isn't really a hill worth dying on, I'm not going to continue disputing it, but let the record show that I think it's unfair how you are suppressing this information. Adamzanzie (talk) 03:35, 31 July 2023

 * There is nothing sourced that supports your belief that Obama's personal opinion had any impact on the popularity of the movie. At a minimum that would be needed to support inclusion. The information isn't suppressed, it just doesn't belong in this article. Possible more appropriate at Barack Obama. As to this being a political issue, I'd be just as opposed for the same reasons to adding this to the article if John McCain had made the statement in question during the 2008 campaign. Geraldo Perez (talk) 04:59, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Shrek the Third