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Prabhat Ranjan Sarkar

Prabhat Ranjan Sarkar (21 May 1921 – 21 October 1990), also known by his spiritual name Shrii Shrii Ánandamúrti (Ánanda Múrti="Bliss Embodiment"), and known as Bábá ("Father") to his disciples, was a spiritual guru, philosopher, social reformer, linguist, author and composer of 5,018 songs mostly in the Bengali language. He founded Ananda Marga (the Path of Bliss) in 1955 as a spiritual and social organisation that continues to offer instruction in meditation and yoga. and runs numerous social service and disaster relief projects throughout the world.

Sarkar developed his system of spiritual practice as a synthesis of Vedic and Tantric philosophies. He denounced religious dogmas, casteism, materialism and capitalism, considering all of these as impediments to social harmony, progress and spiritual growth. He described the universe as a manifestation of consciousness coming under the bondage of its own nature, resulting in creation. His spiritual and social philosophies embraced diversity as the law of nature; a result of Singular Consciousness expressing itself in numerous forms. Sarkar advocated for the welfare of humans and the planet through his socio-economic philosophy of PROUT, which is rooted in the idea of Neohumanism, a worldview based on inter-connectedness of all beings.

Biography
Sarkar was born during the full moon of the Indian month of Vaeshakh (Buddha Purnima), on 21 May 1921 (at 6:07 in the morning) to Lakshmi Narayan Sarkar, a homoeopathic doctor and Abharani Devi in the small town of Jamalpur, Bihar. His family hailed from Bamunpara (Brahmanpara), Burdwan District in West Bengal.

In 1939, Sarkar left Jamalpur for Kolkata to attend Vidyasagar College of the University of Calcutta. Sarkar had to quit his studies to support his family after the death of his father; from 1944 until the early 1950s, Sarkar worked as an accountant at the Indian railways headquarters in Jamalpur, Bihar. He taught the techniques of Yoga and Tantra meditation to a select number of his colleagues and gradually more people were drawn to the spiritual practices he taught.

In 1955, Sarkar founded Ananda Marga (the Path of Bliss), a socio-spiritual movement with a two-part mission that Sarkar stated as "self-realization and service to all" with a spiritual practice that synthesized Vedic and Tantric philosophies. Sarkar's ideas are collected in the series of books called "Subháśita Samgraha", which form part of the philosophical scriptures of Ananda Marga ideology.

During the latter part of his life, his main residence was in Lake Gardens in Kolkata, West Bengal. He also spent much time, especially early on, in the all-round development community he founded based on his PROUT theory at Anandanagar. Ananda Marga opened regional offices in various countries, including the US in 1969; by 1973, he bad established approximately 100 local centres teaching yogic and social philosophies, with several thousand members, some living communally in the ashrams.

In 1971, Sarkar was imprisoned in India for the alleged murder of Ananda Marga members. On 1 April, after recovering his health, Sarkar began fasting in support of a demand for an inquest into his poisoning. That demand was never met. So he continued his fast for the next five years, four months, and two days, until 2 August 1978 when he was released from jail after having been acquitted of all charges.

In 1979, Sarkar took two world tours to meet disciples in various countries around the world, including Switzerland, Germany, France, Scandinavia, the Middle East, Philippines, Thailand, Taiwan, Jamaica and Venezuela. He was barred from entering the US by the State Department, so instead he met his American disciples in Jamaica in 1979. Just before he died on 21 October 1990 from a heart attack, he founded Ananda Marga Gurukula on 7 September 1990, an educational network to preserve and develop his legacy through research, teaching and service.

Spiritual philosophy
Sarkar's teachings on spiritual philosophy are a synthesis of Vedic and Tantric philosophies. He considered himself to be "an incorrigible optimist" in his thinking.

Cosmology
Sarkar described the universe as a result of macropsychic conation – the entire universe exists within the cosmic mind, which itself is the first expression of consciousness coming under the bondage of its own nature. He described the cosmological flow as being from limitless consciousness to limited consciousness and back to limitless consciousness, attained by meditation.

Realms of the mind
According to Sarkar's philosophy the individual mind is composed of five layers called Kosas:

 * 1) Kamamaya Kosa ("layer of desire") or "Crude Mind": is the layer that controls the body. It operates on instinct or passion. This layer is sometimes conscious and sometimes subconscious.
 * 2) Manomaya Kosa ("layer of thinking") or "Subtle Mind": is the layer of thought and memory. This Kosa gives experience of pleasure and pain and is developed naturally through physical clash, and in Ananda Marga sadhana by pranayama with cosmic ideation.
 * 3) Atimanasa Kosa or "Supramental Mind": is the intuitive layer. This Kosa gives the capacity of intuitive dreams, clairvoyance, telepathy and creative insight. It is developed naturally through psychic clash, and in Ananda Marga sadhana by methods of pratyahara (withdrawal) such as shuddhis and Guru Puja.
 * 4) Vijinanamaya Kosa ("layer of the special knowledge") or "Subliminal Mind": is the layer of conscience or discrimination (viveka) and vaeragya (non-attachment). This Kosa is developed naturally through psychic clash, and its development is accelerated by the process of dharana.
 * 5) Hiranyamaya Kosa ("golden level") or "Subtle Causal Mind": is the subtlest layer. Here the awareness of mind is very close to the direct experience of "Supreme Consciousness". Here there is only the separation of a thin veil of ignorance. This Kosa is developed naturally through the attraction for the Great, and dhyana accelerates this process for sadhakas (spiritual aspirants).

Biopsychology
Sarkar's "biopsychology" reimagined the traditional tantric belief in chakras ("wheels") as being due to interactions of subtle energies through nerve plexuses. He believed this connected the endocrine glands of the neuroendocrine system with a psychic part of the body. The philosophy of Ananda Marga considers the human body as composed of the same five fundamental factors as the rest of the universe as explained in Brahmachakra. Every factor is said to be distributed throughout the body, but governed by a chakra, substations of the mind which control their own assigned areas. The biopsychology of Ananda Marga expands the concept of the seven basic chakras and in general, mainly considers:

 * 1) The Muladhara Chakra: at the tip of the spine (controls the solid factor).
 * 2) The Svadhisthana Chakra: at the level of the genitals (controls the liquid factor and is associated with the reproductive glands).
 * 3) The Manipura Chakra: at the level of the navel (controls the luminous factor and is associated with Pancreas).
 * 4) The Anahata Chakra: at the center of the chest (controls the aerial factor and is associated with Thymus).
 * 5) The Vishuddha Chakra: at the throat (controls the ethereal factor and is associated with the Thyroid gland).
 * 6) The Ajina Chakra: between the eyebrows (associated with the Pituitary gland).
 * 7) The Sahasrara Chakra: at the crown of the head (associated with the Pineal gland). Mind's propensities (vrttis) associated with each Chakra affect the glands and the hormones secreted from those glands (hence the emotions, physical behaviour and functioning of the various body systems). But the glands and the hormones they secrete may also affect the mind in a chain of feedback.

Microvita
"Microvita" is plural for "Microvitum" and literally means "possessing or with micro-life". He believed that microvita are smaller and subtler than physical atoms and subatomic particles, and in the psychic realm contribute to "pure consciousness". Sarkar claimed that they would be recognised by conventional science. Sarkar gave the intuitional theory of Microvita in 1986.

Sadhana
A central point in Sarkar's philosophy is the concept of Sadhana. He described Sadhana as a practice for "the transformation of fearful love into fearless love". For Sarkar, Sandhana was concretized by the practice of meditation. He recommended to his disciples the daily practice of individual meditation and the weekly practice of collective meditation. These weekly meetings of his disciples, called Dharma Chakras, are preceded by the collective singing of a few Prabhat Samgiita (or "Songs of the New Dawn", composed by P. R. Sarkar himself) followed by Baba Nam Kevalam kiirtan, then the mantra called Samgacchadvam. The mantra Nityam Shuddham marks the end of the collective meditation, then the spiritual gathering will end with the Guru Puja mantra.

Law of Social Cycle
The concept of Varna describes four main socio-psychological types, whereby human psychological and physical endowment and social motivations are expressed: the Vipra (intellectual), Kshatriya (warrior), Vaishya (acquisitor) and Shudra (labourer). Varna, in Sarkar's perspective, however is more than just a psychological trait but rather an archetype, approximately to Michel Foucault's notion of epistemes, which are broader frameworks of knowledge defining what is true and real. Sarkar clarified that Varna is not the same as Hindu idea of "caste". He was an ardent advocate of building a casteless society, in which everyone gets equal opportunities to fulfil their highest human potential based on their physical, psychological and spiritual strengths. To materialize this, Sarkar propounded Prout.

Sarkar's "Law of Social Cycle" applies these traits in a theory of historical evolution, where ages rise and fall in terms of ruling elites representing one of the above-mentioned traits. This "law" possibly connects to the earlier cyclical historical ideas of Sri Aurobindo, with a focus on the psychology of human development, as well as Ibn Khaldun, among other macrohistorians ideas about cycles. However, along with a cyclical dimension—the rise and fall of ages—Sarkar's theory exhibits a correspondent linear dimension, in that economic and technological "progress" are considered critical in terms of meeting the changing material conditions of life. Ultimately, for Sarkar, true progress has to prioritise development in the spiritual dimension.

Spirituality for Sarkar is defined as the individual realising the "true self". In addition to yogic meditational practices and purity of thought and deed, Sarkar attached great importance to selfless social service as a means of liberation. Sarkar considered it necessary for the social arrangements to support the inner development of human beings and rejected both capitalism and communism as appropriate social structures for humanity to move forward to the golden age of a balanced way of life sustaining all-round progress. A serious problem with capitalism was according to Sarkar the concentration of wealth in a few hands and stoppages in the rolling of money which he considered root causes of recessions, even depressions. A spiritual way of life, however, would in no way be divorced from creating structures that help meet the basic, though ever changing, needs—food, housing, clothing, health and education.

Sarkar developed both Ánanda Márga and the Progressive Utilization Theory as practical means to encourage harmony and co-operation to help society escape this proposed cycle. Sarkar argues that once the social cycle is understood and sadvipras evolved, then the periods of exploitation can be largely reduced, if not eliminated. With leadership that is representative of all aspects of the varnas—that is, the leader engaged in service, who is courageous, who uses the intellect for the benefits of others, and who has innovative/entrepreneurial skills—the cycle can become an upward spiral. Sarkar's concept of karma samnyasa refers to the principle that a yogi becomes a person with all-round development and a balanced mind, that he called a sadvipra; and that this is accomplished by someone who remains fixed on the "supreme" consciousness through transformative personal practices and engaging in the politics of social liberation as a form of service work.

PROUT: Progressive Utilisation Theory
By 1959, Sarkar had developed the socio-economic Progressive Utilization Theory (Prout). In 1961, the theory was formally outlined in his book Ananda Sutram, published under his spiritual name Shrii Shrii Ánandamúrti. In 1968, Sarkar founded the organisation "Proutist Block of India" (PBI), to further the ideals of his theory through political and social action. The PBI was soon superseded by "Proutist Universal" (PU), which primarily consists of five federations (students, intellectuals, farmers, labour, and youth).

A Prout economy is cooperative and decentralised. Its focus is collective welfare rather than to profit, without neglecting individuals and their merits. "Progressive utilization" refers to the optimising the use of natural, industrial and human resources on a sustainable basis for the entire ecosystem. The theory claims to overcome the limitations of both capitalism and communism. It is inline with Sarkar's social theory of the Law of Social Cycle. The theory aims to encompass the whole of individual and collective existence for all beings, including physical, educational, social, political, mental, cultural and spiritual.

Neohumanism

In 1982, Sarkar extended his writings on the subject of human society with the introduction of his new theory of Neohumanism. If humanism tends to contemplate only humans in a human-centric view, Neohumanism, according to Sarkar's theory, is instead the elevation of humanism to universalism. Sarkar said "When the underlying spirit of humanism is extended to everything, animate and inanimate, in this universe – I have designated this as "Neohumanism". This Neohumanism will elevate humanism to universalism, the cult of love for all created beings of this universe." Neohumanism is said to prefer existential value over utility value for all living beings.

Sarkar's Neohumanism places great emphasis on rationality and encourages what he calls a "protospiritual mentality," a process of continually recognising each object with which we come in contact, externally or internally, as a manifestation of the Supreme Consciousness (Brahma). According to Sarkar, rationality helps to give rise to devotion, which he consider to be the "highest and most valuable treasure of humanity". In Sarkar's view, Neohumanism leads to the liberation of human intellect from the constraints of imposed dogma and the principle of selfish pleasure|dogma]] and psychic complexes helping to bridge the gap between the inner and outer worlds.

Culture
In his series of discourses Talks on Prout, given in Ranchi in July 1961, Sarkar makes a distinction between the terms "culture" and "customs". According to Sarkar "culture... is the collective name for different expressions of life..." but "...all of society has the same culture. There are local variations in the mode or state of cultural expression, but the expression is universal... These local variations are called customs... Thus local modes of expression bearing local or group specialities are customs, but the expression itself is culture. Therefore it is a mistake to readjust boundaries on the basis of language and culture. Indian culture and the culture of the world are one and the same."

The philosophy of Sarkar reinterprets the general concept of culture by inserting it into a new universalistic outlook. As described by Antonello Maggipinto: "If the term 'culture' is usually referred to the original meaning of this word (i.e. from the Greek 'paidéia' to the Latin 'humanitas', that is to human beings capable of distinguishably mastering the arts, rhetoric, and philosophy), then Sarkar offers a new point of view, with a large universalistic explanation: 'the culture of the whole human race is one, but marked by different local manifestations [...] it is the same, but varying in expression.' (Sarkar, P.R., 1987)"

Works
Although Sarkar spent only seventeen years of his life working full-time for his organisations (1966–1971 and 1978–1990), he left behind a vast legacy, including over 250 books written on a wide variety of topics. Many of this books are compilations or collections of speeches given by him during spiritual or social meetings. He is primarily known as the spiritual teacher behind Ananda Marga, but Sarkar wrote over 1500 pages on his socio-politico-economic Progressive Utilization Theory (PROUT), with several thousand more pages dedicated to linguistics and the study of languages; Sarkar's writings on linguistics included, among other works, Shabda Cayanika ("A Collection of Words"), an unfinished, twenty-six volume dictated encyclopaedia on the Bengali language. Beyond this, he wrote books on sociology, agriculture, history, literature, education, medicine, cosmology, and philosophy, also notably founding the philosophy of Neohumanism in 1982 and the Theory of Microvita in 1986. In his Theory of Microvita, Sarkar "believed that the atoms and the subatomic particles throughout the boundless universe are imbued with life."

Music
In 1982 Sarkar started composing songs. In eight years, until the date of his death, He completed the composition of 5018 songs in multiple languages. His collection of songs is called Prabhat Samgiita ("Songs of the New Dawn").

title: Prabhat Ranjan Sarkar


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Talk:Rogue wave (oceanography)

Freak/Rogue switching
I notice that this page has been moved to Rogue wave and back again. Let's not get in an edit war, so if someone has a justification for which of the two is correct (scientifically) then please let us know. It may be that 'freak' and 'rogue' are used for different things, but I note that a lot of the links posted switch randomly between the two. Also, use the proper page move mechanism, and correct all the links when you make the move. Noisy 08:36, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware the two terms are interchangeable, although I note that media and scientific links from the article refer to "freak" rather than "rogue".--Gene_poole 08:48, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I've heard of this phenomenon many times, and it's called a "Rogue wave" everytime. So, I believe the correct term is "Rogue wave", not "Freak wave". "Rogue Wave" is used much more frequently, it is distinctive and unique and is the formal term (or at least it sounds formal). "Freak wave" sounds vague and informal. Watch the program on the history channel, and they use this terminology. There's a movie coming out in 2006 called Poseiden, about a cruise ship that is hit by one of these waves.

Mikiemike 00:57, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

 * As I noted above, the majority of the external sources describing the phonomenon - including scientific reports etc - refer to freak waves. Monster and rogue waves seem to be terms which are used with less frequency. --Gene_poole 05:03, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I think rogue might be one of those internet bias things. The most recent articles found on the internet use the term rogue wave but they mostly are all copying a single source. Most likely a press release about a new satellite system. --Gbleem 16:02, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Tsunami/tidal waves versus freak waves.
Although by reading both articles it is easy to establish that tsunami and freak wave are not the same thing (they have distinct causes), they are likely to be synonmous to the layman. Perhaps some more substantial cross-referencing (rather than just the see also) is in order? Pcb21| Pete 10:06, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * They are indeed quite different. Tsunami in mid-ocean are large-scale phenomena, with a rise in ocean height measured in centimetres, and present no danger to ships, whose crews will probably not notice the tsunami passing under them. The tsunami only becomes dangerous when it reaches the far shore, dumping its massive energy and momentum there. -- Karada 10:11, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * This is the kind of great stuff that should be spelt out in the articles. :) Pcb21| Pete 10:33, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The term "tidal waves" is wrong, but no more wrong than "tsunami" ("Harbor waves"). However, in science, "tidal waves" is obsolete. So, rather than distinguish "tidal waves" and "tsunami" according to correctness, it seems more appropriate to distinguish them according to when they were or are used.

Moving of the page
I agree with the move itself, but the histories of the two articles must be merged, just how the hell did it happen that we had two seperate edit histories? -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason   14:54, 2004 Jul 23 (UTC)
 * I've looked at the histories of both. Freak wave was the original article. Rogue wave was created by User:Lir on 22JUL04, and grew a little over the succeeding hours.  User:Karada merged the two into Rogue wave towards the end of 22JUL04. The two histories are genuinely independent. User:Mozzerati made the move back into the well-established Freak wave page.  Lir could have done a bit more research before starting his page, but all's well that ends well.  Noisy 15:31, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Ships which witnessed freak waves
Hi there, I notice that the Ocean Ranger accident has been included, with the inference that the Ranger was hit by a freak wave. I cannot find any reference to this in the official accident report released by the United States Coast Guard and feel that the Ocean Ranger has been included in this article for dramatic effect. When at an 80 foot draft (the draft of the Ranger at the time of the accident), the main deck of the rig is only 54 foot above sea level, with the ballast control room at 25 foot above sea level. The storm seas on the day of the accident were reported between 50 and 60 feet, so you can see that a freak wave is not required to be able to strike up to the main deck level. Further to this, the rig was not sunk nor damaged by this wave, beyond having a porthole broken at the 25 foot level, and remained afloat for another 8 hours before sinking due to ballast control problems. I recommend deleting the Ocean Ranger entry from this article unless further evidence can be provided.

Thanks, Vodkasim 20:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

To avoid an edit war, I'd like to explain why Norwegian Dawn links to the Wikipedia page on that ship. All of the ships listed in that section link to their Wikipedia page. I agree with the Wikipedians who began this convention, since most ships have information and history beyond their encounter with a freak wave. Making that link an external link about the incident makes the Norwegian Dawn listing different than the others listed, and accounts of the freak wave incident can be listed on the page for that ship. I am not sure why Gene Poole wants that one ship's listing different than the others, but perhaps some others can weigh in. Jokestress 23:40, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * The point of the article is to document the phenomenon of freak waves, and the point of the section in question is to document specific incidents of freak waves involving specific oceangoing vessels - not to simply provide links to articles about vessels involved in freak wave incidents. Removing links to media reports from that section is inappropriate, as its removal degrades the article content, so please stop doing it. I have modified the article so that both the links to the individual vessel articles as well as the recent news reports are retained.--Gene_poole 23:07, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

 * I would argue that media reports about specific ships should be listed under entries for those ships, which is what I did with the Norwegian Dawn reports. The general article should list external links of a general nature on the phenomenon, and the links to Wikipedia pages of ships involved in specific incidents are available for those who want more information and external links about those specific incidents. Jokestress 05:37, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

 * It is totally inappropriate to excise links to media reports about freak wave incidents from an article on the subject of freak waves. By all means add the media reports to the Norwegian Star and other ship articles - but in addition to - not instead of - keeping them on this page, which is where their primary relevance lies. --Gene_poole 06:18, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Dates in the "Possible causes of freak waves" section
The dates given need to have the months spelled out to avoid confusion.

Firearms analogy
Cut the crap with gun & cannon analogy. Not every reader of Wikipedia is from USA so we really cannot imagine how it feels being shot by a xy-mm round.

Naming
I've never heard of this as a "freak wave". Then again, I've only read Thurman and Segar, and only Thurman mentions it (as "rogue wave"). What do you guys think? --M1ss1ontom a rs2k4 (T 00:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

 * See my comments above on this subject. The 2 terms seem to be used fairly interchangeably, although I note that "freak wave" seems to be somewhat more commonly used, particularly in the media.

Ship losses due to freak waves
After The Times repeated the story about "200 large ships lost to freak waves in the past two decades" (May 2006), I added a cautionary note to this page. After a few revisions (this been a busy page recently!), I have had to re-clarify the point. I sit next to the man who compiles the Lloyd's Register ship casualty database, and he can't find a single case where freak waves were a probable or even likely cause of a merchant ship sinking. To deflect an 'edit war' I would like to explain a couple of edits. 1) I took out the reference to 'urban myth'. I'm not sure how an urban myth differs from any other myth, but I couldn't see what was urban about it. Urban myths, however, do not generally start with respectable scientific institutions (see below). 2) It was suggested my claim had no evidence to back it up. It's a bit difficult to provide evidence that there is no evidence for something. 3) I have chased this 'statistic' as far back as I can, and the earliest reference seems to be in the press release by the European Space Agency (cited at the bottom of the page). They won't tell me where they got the number, but it was first quoted as "200 large ships of 600ft long or more in the past two decades sunk without trace". At the time the claim was made, there had only been 142 ships of that size lost at sea in the time frame. All had clear, proven causes. None were due to freak waves. The main culprits were the Iranian and Iraqi air forces in the 1980s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Patrick Neylan-Francis (talk • contribs)

 * The main issue here is that statements must be cited, and free from editor assumption where possible. A footnote to explain the above will be valuable. try this for an example:
 * FOOTNOTE: "The story that "200 large ships lost to freak waves in the past two decades" was published in The Times (May 2006). The earliest reference seems to be in the press release by the European Space Agency (cited at the bottom of the/that page), and first quoted as "200 large ships of 600ft long or more in the past two decades sunk without trace". At the time the claim was made, there had only been 142 ships of that size lost at sea in the time frame, all with clear, known causes (Source: Lloyds of London registry). The main culprits were the Iranian and Iraqi air forces in the 1980s."
 * Does that work? FT2 (Talk) 13:09, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I wanted to keep it uncluttered. I hadn't thought of a footnote; thanks. It is strange though, that people can write "it might be..." without any evidence, yet when I say "there's no evidence...", people shout "prove it!" Hey ho. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Patrick Neylan-Francis (talk • contribs)

To whoever updates this article: please stop pissing on the memories of the men lost in the Ocean Ranger accident. The sinking of the rig was not blamed on a rogue wave. There was no rogue wave reported. It was a storm. Seas were 60 feet. The accident was caused by failure to use protective covers on the portholes. Do some research, read the witness statements, read the accident analyses. And stop making statements which cannot be corroborated. Vodkasim 19:38, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

"Original research" moved from main article
The following is an interesting personal account, however, we can not leave this in the article, since it is an unsourced claim. mstroeck 10:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

 * About April 1984; BP's ESV Iolair - do see the Wikipedia article on this ship to see that she looks just a tiny little bit different to most ships afloat!; this was in the North Sea. There were three intense lows, maybe a hundred miles apart, passing to the north of the ship, which was in the Forties Field.  Each had a respectable wave-train.  When three troughs coincided, and the three following crests coincided, instead of 25' [8 metre] seas, we had something like a 70' [20+ metre] wall of water, with a very steep face.  The vessel was supposed to be able to ride the 'hundred year wave', but, as we told the naval architects who helicoptered out to the ship once the weather had eased, that's one very long, and high, wave, which almost anything floating could ride; this was three, rather short, waves, coming all together.  The vessel's flat bottom [see photo in Iolair ], which was probably about ten metres out of the water, was set up about 18 inches [0,5 metre] according to the Mate, who did a damage inspection; Alan Chamberlain, I believe.  There was breaking green water over the bridge, which was a further five decks [perhaps another 13-15 metres] up.  Fortunately, no injuries were reported.  I don't remember any other damages, such as to the forward lifeboats.  How big was that wave?  Certainly 70 feet [21 metres].  More - yes, quite probably, but not all that much more. How do I know?  I was on her, and on watch, when this happened. Geoff Hunt - not the maritime artist, or the squash player Geoff Hunt.

I just cut a big chunk of OR out too. Going to Lloyd's register, looking up a bunch of sinkings and drawing your own conclusions breaks WP:NOR. Dan100 (Talk) 10:39, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Rather presumptuous and high-handed of you, Dan. Yes, I looked up the list. Where it says a ship was 'bombed and sunk by Iraqi aircraft', it's hardly "drawing your own conclusions" to claim that it wasn't sunk by freak waves. Your objection on the grounds of Original Research is more problematic. I suppose using the database that way is original research and thus breaks the rules in a way that repeating the ESA's unsubstantiated assertions is not. But if I were (say) to look up FIFA's list of World Cup winners and conclude that "most of them weren't Belgium", that would, by your definition, be "original research" and could not be used when correcting an entry claiming that "Belgium has probably won the World Cup several times". As it is, I've no real problem with how the entry stands at the moment, but I'll have to be careful next time someone gets hold of the "200 supertankers" factoid and reinserts it into the article. Patrick Neylan 13:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)Patrick NeylanPatrick Neylan 13:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Primary sources are troublesome when we start to draw conclusions from them. We may not understand the way the data was collected or how to interpret it. There may be caveats or exceptions that we don't know about. It's always best to rely on secondary sources. If we do use primary sourcs, we should simply report what they say without inserting our own interpretations or conclusions. -Will Beback · † · 22:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Resummarising existing data into encyclopedic summary, is not usually OR. The choice how to present information that's credibly "out there" is a valid editorial choice, and it includes counting exceptions in it, and citing generalities from it. The limit I suppose comes when you can no longer put a footnote that substantiates and links the summary as stated, back to raw data. In other words its fine to say "according to Lloyds, most ships ((X))"... but if challenged one needs to be literally able to list the ships concerned, and sources, and show that "most" is appropriate, and ((X)) representative of the actual data. the moment you add interpretation to fill in facts and views that aren't inherent in the sources, it risks being OR. But this doesn't seem to be one of those cases. FT2 (Talk 02:10, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

 * See WP:OR: "Research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is, of course, strongly encouraged… This is not "original research"; it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia." Patrick Neylan 14:10, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Naming 2
The term used in science is rogue waves (cf. the NWS, NOAA, MaxWave). I've personally never heard of these waves refered to as "freak" waves outside popular media. Dan100 (Talk) 10:38, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it's misleading to say that the scientific term is a "rogue wave". A google scholar search for freak waves shows plenty of articles that include the term "freak wave" in the title, including some authors that are well respected and cited (for example, Sverre Haver). Given that it seems that both terms are used in scientific literature, and that the term "freak wave" is more common in popular media, should the article name be reverted?

More poor editorship and OR removed and reverted
FT2 (Talk 00:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * A reference was removed from the intro, leaving a cite later on which had no attached footnote.
 * Note of caution on interpretation of disappearances removed from intro, no real explanation
 * Remove OR Rouge waves are pretty common, usually happening at least once a week. This could partially explain the relatively high number of ships that have mysteriously gone missing. Sailors have tried to tell people that rogue waves actually happen, but no one would believe them because they thought they were exagerating. which replaced cited fact from the MaxWave oceanographic survey.

Page name
Why is this at Rogue wave (oceanography) rather than at rogue wave (with the page currently there moved to rogue wave (disambiguation))? WP:CN would seem to dictate the latter rather than the former.--chris.lawson 06:33, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

142 or 143?
Where 142 or 143 200ft ships lost between 1981 and 2001? Different parts of the articles had the different number - I made them both 143, as that seemed to be listed more confidently, but I don't know where on the Lloyd's Register website, if anywhere, to find the correct number. zafiroblue05 | Talk 07:30, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the number is 124, as reported in Fairplay Shipping Weekly on 24 Jan 2002. Extract follows:

Think before you sink ACROSS the newswires comes a frightening story. It seems that "near-vertical breaking seas up to 120 ft high… are thought to have sunk more than 200 supertankers and container ships without trace during the past two decades." (Sunday Telegraph, Sydney Morning Herald, etc). Let’s see; that means about one every five weeks for 20 years. Before sacking our news editor for missing all these disasters, we decided to run a quick check. The Sunday Telegraph’s definition of a "super carrier" is a vessel over 182 metres long (600 ft in the quaint old measurements). According to the Lloyd's Register-Fairplay database, only 124 ships of such a size have been lost in the past two decades from all causes. Of these, most were lost through fires, explosions or groundings. Several vessels were indeed lost after suffering damage during heavy seas, but most of these sank while under tow or after the safe evacuation of the crew, and were hardly "sunk without trace". Indeed, more ships have been lost through military action (in the Iran-Iraq war or the Falklands) than by being suddenly engulfed by mountainous seas. Patrick Neylan 11:47, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

spoilers
There is a need to insert a 'spoiler' line before the popular culture section. The ending to at least one movie is revealed. Lucastheory 10:28, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Expansion requests
-- Beland 20:27, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
 * There is one area of the world which is mentioned as likely being topographically more conducive to formation of rogue waves, but a recent documentary mentioned multiple such areas. Is this true?
 * Has anyone estimated the probability of an encounter with a rogue wave in any given area?
 * How wide are these waves, typically?
 * How far do these waves travel, typically?

There is an interesting article in the December 24,2007 edition of Electronic Engineering Times Magazine (EETIMES) (issue 1507) on page 14. The title of the article is "EEs working with optical fibers demystify 'roque wave' phenomenon". The two main researchers are Daniel Solli and Bahram Jalali at UCLA. The article is fairly superficial without too many details, but one interesting quote from the article is: "According to the researchers, rogue waves follow L-shaped statistics, as opposed to the more common Gaussian statistics.  This accounts for the seemingly out-of-bounds size of rogue waves." Link to the article is: http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=1WYBMZUASM3QQQSNDLPSKH0CJUNN2JVN?articleID=204803618. (Type the articleID number in the Search window at EETimes if the link doesn't work.) Matagamasi (talk) 17:35, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I added the additional material before noticing the expansion request. The real shock of the EET article is not the analysis that Jalali and Solli are doing, but the fact that they are being funded by DARPA to characterise and possibly lay a foundation of knowledge to generate such waves. As a result, this addition went under the new heading Applications. Up to this point, such a concept has only been science fiction. Curious Violet (talk) 03:00, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Pressure head value
I dont understand how a wave height of 100 ft(30 m) would produce a pressure of 980 kpa.

For a head of 30 m, the static pressure = rho * g * h = 1000 (kg/m3) * 9.8 * 30 = 294 kPa. The pressure head = static head = 294 kpa. Total pressure = 488 kPa.

I dont know if I am missing something here, can someone help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.111.161.152 (talk) 02:40, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Rogue wave (oceanography)


text:
Dress code

A dress code is a set of rules, often written, with regard to what clothing groups of people must wear. Dress codes are created out of social perceptions and norms, and vary based on purpose, circumstances, and occasions. Different societies and cultures are likely to have different dress codes, Western dress codes being a prominent example.

Dress codes are symbolic indications of different social ideas, including social class, cultural identity, attitude towards comfort, tradition, and political or religious affiliations. Dress code also allows individuals to read others' behavior as good, or bad by the way they express themselves with their choice of apparel.

Europe
From the seventh through the ninth centuries, the European royalty and nobility used a dress code to differentiate themselves from other people. All classes generally wore the same clothing, although distinctions among the social hierarchy began to become more noticeable through ornamented garments. Common pieces of clothing worn by peasants and the working class included plain tunics, cloaks, jackets, pants, and shoes. According to rank, embellishments adorned the collar of the tunic, waist or border. Examples of these decorations included, as James Planché states, "gold and silver chains and crosses, bracelets of gold, silver or ivory, golden and jeweled belts, strings of amber and other beads, rings, brooches, [and] buckles". The nobility tended to wear longer tunics than the lower social classes.

While dress codes of modern-day Europeans are less strict, there are some exceptions. It is possible to ban certain types of clothing in the workplace, as exemplified by the European Court of Justice's verdict that "a ban on Islamic headscarves at work can be lawful."

The Americas
The indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast had a complex social hierarchy that consisted of slaves, commoners, and nobles, with dress codes indicating these social distinctions. John R. Jewitt, an Englishman who wrote a memoir about his years as a captive of the Nuu-chah-nulth people in 1802-1805, describes how, after some time living there, Maquinna and the chiefs decided that he must now be "considered one of them, and conform to their customs". Jewitt resented the imposition of this dress code, finding the loose untailored garments very cold, and attributed to them a subsequent illness of which he almost died. He was not allowed to cut his hair and had to paint his face and body as a Nootka would.

In the early 20th century, informal wear was the norm across many social settings, including workplaces, restaurants, travel, and movie theaters. In the 1950s, casual wear became prominent in many of these settings, but informal wear remained dominant in workplaces and churches. Beginning in the 1980s, technology companies in Silicon Valley developed the business casual dress code, which was part of a broader organizational culture of emphasizing efficiency over propriety. Today, casual wear is the norm in the tech industry, exemplified by tech executives such as Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerberg.

In North American high schools, fashion for girls began to be more revealing in the late twentieth century, including clothing such as low-rise jeans, revealing tops, miniskirts, and spaghetti straps. With these new styles appearing in schools, dress codes have in some cases become more rigorous as a result.

The dress codes in North American high schools typically resulted in tests that would determine if skirts or shorts were long enough. A common test would be used to measure the appropriate length of students' shorts/skirts. If a student's fingers extended past their clothing, then the clothing was considered a violation of the school dress code.

Muslim world
Islam, founded in the seventh century CE, laid out rules regarding the attire of both men and women in public. Gold adornments and silk clothes are prohibited for men to wear, as they are luxurious, but they are permissible for women. Men are also required to wear the ihram clothing while on Hajj, or annual pilgrimage to Mecca.

Hijab generally refers to various head coverings conventionally worn by some Muslim women, most often a headscarf wrapped around the head, covering the hair, neck and ears, but leaving the face visible. The use of the hijab has been on the rise worldwide since the 1970s and is viewed by many Muslims as expressing modesty and faith. There is a consensus among Islamic religious scholars that covering the head is either required or preferred, though some Muslim scholars and activists argue that it is not mandated.

Indian subcontinent
Sikhism, which was founded in the Indian subcontinent around the end of the fifteenth century, also requires a dress code. Male Sikhs, who are members of the Khalsa are required to wear a turban at all times.

Laws and social norms
Cultural values, norms, and laws regarding clothing can vary by location. For example, the degree of nudity that is acceptable changes depending on location. In New Guinea and Vanuatu, there are areas where it is customary for men to wear nothing but penis sheaths in public, while women wear string skirts. In remote areas of Bali, women may go topless, which is less common in more Western countries.

Most developed countries have generally no rules regarding specific clothing in most public scenarios.

Private dress codes
Many places have their own private dress code; these organizations may insist on particular dress codes or standards in particular situations. Such as for weddings, funerals, religious gatherings, etc.

A study was conducted on two different Christian schools, both located in the United States were surveyed on their dress code appearance. Both Christian schools were run by a board of education which was independent with a Church, and both schools implemented school uniforms two years before they even got an interview to attend the private school. After interviews were done, and the data was all collected, the school uniform was a purpose to achieve four goals that were to decrease distractions in the academic environment, show students how to dress appropriately, eliminate competition, and lower the cost of families buying school clothes for their children.

Workplace

Employees are sometimes required to wear a uniform or certain standards of dress, such as a business suit and tie. This may depend on particular situations, for example if they are expected to interact with customers. (See also International standard business attire)

In Western countries, these policies vary depending on the industry. Lawyers, bankers, and executives often wearing a suit and tie, while casual wear is more common in the technology industry. Some businesses observe that anti-discrimination laws restricts their determining what is appropriate and inappropriate workplace clothing. Requiring men and women to dress differently at the workplace can be challenged because the gender-specific dress codes would be based on one sex and could be considered stereotypical. Most businesses have authority in determining and establishing what workplace clothes they can require of their workers. Generally, a carefully drafted dress code applied consistently does not violate anti-discrimination laws. So long as the dress code does not favor one gender over the other it is usually acceptable by law for employers to have a private dress code.

In the United States, it is legal for employers to require women to wear makeup and ban men from wearing it. It has been argued that such a distinction in a dress code is not discriminatory because both sexes have rules about their appearance. An important court case that occurred in the U.S was the Jespersen v. Harrah's Operating Co., which allowed for a workplace to require that female employees wear makeup while their male counterparts were banned from doing so. Darlene Jespersen worked at Harrah's Casino for more than 20 years and found that the makeup and dress code was not only unattainable but degrading. Jespersen found that the 'Personal Best' policy was not true to her natural appearance as it required a full face of makeup including foundation, powder, blush, mascara, and lipstick. Jespersen stated that this policy "forced her to be ... 'dolled up' like a sexual object, and ... took away her credibility as an individual and as a person." In opposition men who worked at Harrah's Casino were banned from wearing makeup, nail polish, and other traditionally female attires. Judge Kozinski argued that hyperfemininity was a burden that only women employees suffered. Kozinski stated that the time, effort and expense was more of a hindrance than just being banned from wearing makeup. However despite these efforts, in the ruling, it was decided that women did not have a larger burden in the requirements of the dress code but two judges disagreed and argued that makeup takes more time and money and that sex stereotyping occurred because women's bare faces were seen as less desirable.

New Jersey BorgataBabes case
In New Jersey, twenty-one women sued the Borgata Casino Hotel & Spa for requiring them to lose weight and stay under a certain size to maintain their jobs. The women argued that the management would ridicule them over weight gain even if they were pregnant. The case was dismissed in New Jersey because the BorgataBabes program required that both men and women maintain certain body shapes and sizes. The "BorgataBabes contractually agreed to adhere to these strict personal appearance and conduct standards". In 2016, Superior Court Judge Nelson Johnson dismissed the claims because the appearance standards were lawful. He also determined that the women could return to court for their claims of a hostile environment created by the management. Workplace requirements for attire and appearance have been legal in the United States as long as there are similar requirements for both sexes.

Doe v. Boeing Corporation (1993)
Doe, a transgender person beginning gender transition, found that her supervisors at the engineering company, Boeing Corporation, were uncooperative with her desire to wear feminine presenting clothing to work. She was warned against wearing, "obviously feminine clothing such as dresses, skirts, or frilly blouses" and from using the women's bathroom. This was even after her counselor recommended that wearing female presenting clothing would help with her transition. After a few warnings from her supervisors, Doe showed up to work wearing a pink pantsuit and was subsequently fired for violating the dress code. This prompted Doe to legal action. The Washington State Supreme Court ultimately upheld the decision made by Boeing and stated that the company had the right to determine what female identity looked like while at work.

Equal Employment Opportunity Commission v. R.G. &. G.R Harris Funeral Homes, Inc.
Aimee Stephens, a transgender woman, worked at the R.G. &. G.R Harris Funeral Homes and originally was dressing as a stereotypical male following the funeral home's male attire, but Stephens had intended to transition to female attire to better suit her gender identity. Thomas Rost, the owner of the funeral home, fired Stephens for not presenting herself as a man and for dressing like a woman. Stephens opened a case at the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, stating discrimination based on sex and gender but the district court sided with the funeral home stating, "that transgender status is not a protected trait under Title VII". In the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals, it was ruled that Stephens was unlawfully fired based on sex discrimination, which does protect transgender people. The United States Supreme Court ruled in 2020 against firing someone for being homosexual or transgender, as being discrimination based on sex.

The CROWN Act
The CROWN act, standing for 'create a respectful and open world for natural hair' is a California law that prohibits discrimination in the school and workplace based on the style or texture of one's hair. The act was created in 2019 by Dove and the CROWN Coalition in partnership with California's State Senator Holly J. Mitchel. After a study conducted by Dove to reveal the degree of workplace discrimination towards black women, the data was used to spread awareness and elicit change for the act to be passed. CROWN continues to fight for this cause, with a recent work-study conducted in 2023 revealing that discrimination regarding hair texture still prevails. As of June 2023, 23 US states have enacted the CROWN act into law.

Formal wear
In Western countries, a "formal" dress code typically means coats for men and evening dresses for women. The most-formal dress code is a full-length ball or evening gowns with evening gloves for women and for men white tie, which also includes a tailcoat. "Semi-formal" has a much less precise definition but typically means an evening jacket and tie for men (known as black tie) and a dress for women. "Business casual" typically means not wearing neckties or suits, but wearing instead collared shirts, and trousers (not black, but more relaxed, including things such as corduroy). "Casual" typically just means clothing for the torso, legs and shoes. "Wedding Casual" defines yet another mode of dress, where guests dress respectfully, but not necessarily fancily.

Business casual
Business casual dress is a popular workplace dress code that emerged in white-collar workplaces in Western countries in the 1990s, especially in the United States and Canada. Many information technology businesses in Silicon Valley were early adopters of this dress code. In contrast to formal business wear such as suits and neckties (the international standard business attire), the business casual dress code has no generally accepted definition; its interpretation differs widely among organizations and is often a cause of sartorial confusion among workers.

The job search engine Monster.com offers this definition, "In general, business casual means dressing professionally, looking relaxed, yet neat and pulled together." A more pragmatic definition is that business casual dress is the mid ground between formal business clothes and street clothes. Generally, neckties are excluded from business casual dress, unless worn in nontraditional ways. The acceptability of blue jeans and denim cloth clothing varies — some businesses consider them to be sloppy and informal.

Education system
Many schools around the world implement dress codes in the school system to prevent students from wearing inappropriate clothing items to school and was thought to help influence a safer and more professional environment.

United States education
In 1996, former U.S. President Bill Clinton announced his support for the idea of school uniforms by stating, "School uniforms are one step that may help break the cycle of violence, truancy and disorder by helping young students understand what really counts is what kind of people they are." Many school districts in the United States took up the idea. In all 70 schools, comprising around 60,000 students, switched to school uniforms. School uniforms have been used with several schools to teach students how to dress appropriately, and in cases it has worked, and has decreased distractions in the educational systems.

One common criticism of school dress codes in the U.S. is that they infringe on students' right to self-expression. There have been many court cases regarding school dress code, the first being Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District, which involved students wearing black armbands to protest the Vietnam war.

Within the educational system, the Federation supports professional dress code standards for all teachers.

Dress code violations
"Communicative" dress code violations are violations where the clothing has implications of hate, violence, gang-affiliation, etc. In cases where dress code rules in public school systems have been violated by non-communicative clothing, courts repeatedly legitimise dress code discrimination based on gender. Amongst the transgender populations, gender based dress codes are primarily enforced against individuals who do not yet pass.

Violation of dress codes have become a subject of school protests, such as at a high school in Toronto, which had a protest after a student was disciplined for wearing a crop top. Students at multiple schools have protested gender discrimination in the application of dress codes.

Dress code backlash
Certain dress code restrictions in schools across North America have been accused of perpetuating sexist standards. In March 2014, a group of middle-school girls from Evanston, Illinois, protested their school's dress code, which prohibited them from wearing leggings to school under the pretense that it was "too distracting for boys." Thirteen-year-old student Sophie Hasty was quoted in the Evanston Review saying that "not being able to wear leggings because it's 'too distracting for boys' is giving us the impression we should be guilty for what guys do." In a Time magazine article covering the incident, Eliana Dockterman argued that teachers and administration in these schools are "walking the fine line between enforcing a dress code and slut shaming."

School dress codes seem to also be gender-biased towards young girls. The research article, "Objectification Study on High School Girls" conducted interviews with middle school girls, one of them describing, "If they're [boys] wearing a sleeveless basketball jersey, it doesn't fully cover their shoulders. They don't usually get called out for that. Guys are not the ones that they're looking out for. So they dress code girls, so guys don't get distracted. But they don't think that girls are going to get distracted by guys' shoulders. "

On Monday, September 22, 2014, "about 100 pupils walked out of Bingham high school in South Jordan, Utah" after more than a dozen girls were turned away from a homecoming dance for wearing dresses which violated the dress code. "School staff allegedly lined up girls against a wall as they arrived and banished about two dozen for having dresses which purportedly showed too much skin and violated the rules." It is believed that this act was awkward and humiliating towards the female students, which spawned the walkouts.

In August 2021, one student's mother criticized her daughter's school for continuing to enforce clothing restrictions on girls while allowing students to opt out of mask-wearing during the COVID-19 pandemic.

There have been several issues with dress code backlash happening to several students, such as a 15-year-old girl who attended Edmonton High school, she was banned from attending her school due to dying her hair blue, this resulted in the girl suing her principal for discrimination. In another case, a 16-year-old girl was sent home because she refused to take her eyebrow ring out.

Dress code backlash
A Canadian teenager, Lauren Wiggins, was given detention in May 2015 for wearing a floor-length dress with a halter neckline. The punishment prompted Wiggins to write an open letter to the school's assistant vice principal at Harrison Trimble High School in Moncton, New Brunswick. In the letter, Wiggins concentrated specifically on the fact that females are often blamed for the behaviour of males, saying that if a boy "will get distracted by my upper back and shoulders then he needs to be sent home and practice self-control." She was then given a one-day suspension after writing and submitting the letter.

In Ontario, Canada, there were a few backlash incidents that occurred which consisted of girls being sent home due to wearing shorts that were too short. The other case happened in British Columbia where students were directed to wear clothes that were in good taste, and clothing that displayed a business look. Another case that took place in British Columbia was a young women got sent home from her high school, because her principal stated that her shirt was inappropriate due to the show of too much cleavage. These are a few of the many cases that have resulted in a backlash against dress codes.

title: Dress code


text:
Talk:Sympson the Joiner

VfD Discussion
Renamed from Votes for deletion/Sympson:

Re: Sympson, now Sympson the Joiner; refs: Samuel Pepys, Pepys Library I tried to find backing for this on google, came up with around 100 hits, again, mostly the mirrors and genalogical stuff you would expect. Not sure if this is noteable, if the guy is only mentioned in 1 peron's diary, and we only know of one work he has built. Lyellin 08:42, Jul 23, 2004 (UTC)
 * I'd send this to cleanup to await attention from furniture historians. As is it only says that the guy apparently existed. This is probably something not easily researchable in google and co. Ianb 09:00, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Art historians might well have something to say about the figure, but from a historical/literary point of view, he's too tangential. Clean up is a safe bet, but it's not very strong.  The last lines of the article are, well, extremely suspect. Geogre 13:19, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * I concurm ore or less- keep for now, but move to Pages Needing Attention. If there's any more information about him(?), or is connected to anyhting else, or if the cabinetry itself is particularly notable... there are plenty of ways that this could be notable if we knew more; it needs attention from someone who really knows the history of joinery, and/or a Pepys expert, to tell if it's worth keeping. -FZ 13:48, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete—on the article's own terms, it seems like the only mention of this guy is in someone's diary. Being three centuries old doesn't inherently give notability to the non-notable.  Postdlf 19:50, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. It's a stub, but Pepys's diary is a major literary/historical source and crafts are an increasingly studied art history area.  Needs cleanup.  Bacchiad 21:41, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep as redirects after history merge with Pepys Library (i made Pepys's library a redir to that, BTW). (N.B.: Don't do the history merge until this is thoroughly discussed, as it would be expensive to reverse.) If other info on him turns up, one of the redirs can be turned into an article. ... Magdalene College should make a pleasant afternoon's jaunt, to quiz a docent, BTW. ... Too bad we don't do original research, or i'd suggest [wink] borrowing a coring tool from a dendrochronologist; with a distracted docent and a little luck, it might be possible to confirm that the harvesting date is consistent with his never having replaced them....uh, never mind.... --Jerzy(t) 17:16, 2004 Jul 28 (UTC)

End of discussion moved here by renaming

Should this be Merged?
During VfD discussion, i proposed (context above)
 * Keep as redirects after history merge with Pepys Library (i made Pepys's library a redir to that, BTW). (N.B.: Don't do the history merge until this is thoroughly discussed, as it would be expensive to reverse.) If other info on him turns up, one of the redirs can be turned into an article.

which has elicited no discussion.

Maybe it should sit a while, in case further research (not by me!) fleshes it out. And i may point out the Keep and this section heading to those who commented under VfD. --Jerzy(t) 18:53, 2004 Aug 11 (UTC)

I am not adding merge tags as called for at Duplicate articles because
 * this is a matter of an small article covering another aspect that would be well included (based on what we have now, at least) as part of another, rather than both covering the same topic, and
 * i'm prepared to carry out the merge (in a clean way that makes the full history clear and accessible in one place), rather than needing to recruit someone to do it there.

Definitely if it merges (and maybe anyway), i would factor out the discussion of joinery/cabinet-making/upholstery into something like Furniture hand-trades. --Jerzy(t) 04:23, 2004 Aug 16 (UTC)

 * Merge mention of Sympson and description of bookcases with Pepys Library; I agree that the discussion of joinery should be removed, as should the quotes from the Pepys diary, which don't add anything informative. Postdlf 05:38, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * I was never entirely convinced that much would show up on this fellow, nor that the fellow is terribly known. It would be nice if he had an entry, just in case someone does show up and wish to contribute.  The one move none of us pursued was contacting the author of the article to ask for specification.  At any rate, if you are willing to put in all of the work involved, then I would agree that a merge to Pepys Library is called for.  The joinery discussion is, oddly enough, the section of the article that seemed to move most of the "keep" votes.  The problem is that it requires exceptionally refined historical knowledge to add.  The Pepys quotes are not entirely irrelevant, if scaled back, to the Furniture (or Furniture history or Furniture artisans or Furniture hand-trades), as they are a primary witness statement. Thanks for all the work, Jerzy. Geogre 12:24, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * I think it's reasonable to keep it. Frankly, as it stands now, it's not a bad article. It doesn't have a lot of information, but it's coherent and well-written, and it serves to tell a reader what is known, rather than leaving them wondering. More information may turn up in time, if an editor should appear with specialist knowledge, but in the meantime, it seems reasonable to just let it be. -FZ 13:47, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * I personally think it should be merged. That being said, I'm not strong either way on the issue. Merging just makes sense to me. Doesn' seem to be more information on this guy coming, and someone can always edit the redirect into an article of we have a sympson addict appear, somehow. Lyellin 18:35, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)

 * Is it possible that Sympson was one of the earliest of the English furniture makers that we actually know the name of? ping 09:21, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Jerzy(t) 14:35, 2004 Sep 21 (UTC) moved this here from his own talk page & re-fmt-ed:]
 * Hi there, I missed all this VfD discussion being away from home for a couple of weeks. And then for some reason your questions about merging did not appear until today even though they are dated August 16th.  Very strange.
 * Anyway to the point.  I wrote the article on Sympson because I was working through the list of furniture designers when I came across his name.   Being also a bit of a Pepys fan I enjoyed putting together the article.   It is extremely unlikely that there is ever going to be any more information about him and it always will be a very minor footnote to history.   However he does have a bit a place in history as I suspect  he might be one of the earliest English furniture designers the we actually know the name of.  I cannot confirm that, anyway it might be original research, but he does have some significance.
 * So I suggest that the article continues to stand on its own.
 * I will go back later and add these thoughts also to the talk page.
 * OK?
 * ping 07:34, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * The delay may reflect your browser providing an old copy from its cache. --Jerzy(t) 15:02, 2004 Sep 21 (UTC)
 * IMO it doesn't make Sympson encyclopedically notable. On the other hand, it may be worth noting in an article on his trade or skilled trades in general that (at least at that time) it took someone like Pepys to record such a name, despite their willingness to pay out "great deal of money". (And am i wrong in imagining he was very "comfortable" financially, and perhaps notably wealthy? What would amount to "a great deal" to him?) --Jerzy(t) 15:02, 2004 Sep 21 (UTC)

title: Talk:Sympson the Joiner


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/South Chicago ABC Zine Distro

Hard to tell what this article is about; grammatically incoherent; possible self-promotion. Second-order links only from "list of anarchists", to which it was added by the author of this page. Delete. - Nat Krause 08:59, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * A branch of the Anarchist Black Cross Network. Not notable. Anthony Rayson should probably go as well. Delete. Ianb 09:06, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Anthony Rayson now on VfD, as this discussion cannot delete it. --Jerzy(t) 17:28, 2004 Jul 28 (UTC)
 * Delete: 'zine distribution doesn't seem very significant. The article makes no claims for the groups numbers or significance. Geogre 13:15, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Delete Anthony Rayson too. Wile E. Heresiarch 02:05, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Del. Insignificant, and definitely adv. --Jerzy(t) 17:28, 2004 Jul 28 (UTC)


text:
Udanavarga

The Udānavarga is an early Buddhist collection of topically organized chapters (varga) of aphoristic verses or "utterances" (Sanskrit: udāna) attributed to the Buddha and his disciples. While not part of the Pali Canon, the Udānavarga has many chapter titles, verses and an overall format similar to those found in the Pali Canon's Dhammapada and Udāna. At this time, there exist one Sanskrit recension, two Chinese recensions and two or three Tibetan recensions of the Udānavarga.

Content
The Udānavarga has around 1100 verses in 33 chapters. The chapter titles are:
 * 1) Anityavarga
 * 2) Kāmavarga
 * 3) Tṛṣṇāvarga
 * 4) Apramādavarga
 * 5) Priyavarga
 * 6) Śīlavarga
 * 7) Sucaritavarga
 * 8) Vācavarga
 * 9) Karmavarga
 * 10) Śraddhāvargas
 * 11) Śramaṇavarga
 * 12) Mārgavarga
 * 13) Satkāravarga
 * 14) Drohavarga
 * 15) Smṛtivarga
 * 16) Prakirṇakavarga
 * 17) Udakavarga
 * 18) Puṣpavarga
 * 19) Aśvavarga
 * 20) Krodhavarga
 * 21) Tathāgatavarga
 * 22) Śrutavarga
 * 23) Ātmavarga
 * 24) Peyālavarga
 * 25) Mitravarga
 * 26) Nirvāṇavarga
 * 27) Paśyavarga
 * 28) Pāpavarga
 * 29) Yugavarga
 * 30) Sukhavarga
 * 31) Cittavarga
 * 32) Bhikṣuvarga
 * 33) Brāhmaṇavarga

Comparatively, the most common version of the Dhammapada, in Pali, has 423 verses in 26 chapters. Comparing the Udānavarga, Pali Dhammapada and the Gandhari Dharmapada, Brough (2001) identifies that the texts have in common 330 to 340 verses, 16 chapter headings and an underlying structure.

History
The Udānavarga is attributed by Brough to the Sarvāstivādins.

Hinüber suggests that a text similar to the Pali Canon's Udāna formed the original core of the Sanskrit Udānavarga, to which verses from the Dhammapada were added. Brough allows for the hypothesis that the Udānavarga, the Pali Dhammapada and the Gandhari Dharmapada all have a "common ancestor" but underlines that there is no evidence that any one of these three texts might have been the "primitive Dharmapada" from which the other two evolved.

The Tibetan Buddhist and Chinese Buddhist canons' recensions are traditionally said to have been compiled by Dharmatrāta.

title: Udanavarga


text:
Talk:Faggot

Use against trans women
This slur is frequently used against trans women. Therefore, I think that there should be a section of the article talking about this. 92.0.35.8 (talk) 22:11, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

 * @92.0.35.8 no Matteow101 (talk) 21:25, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Matteow101 Why not? JohnLaurensAnthonyRamos333 (correct me if I'm wrong) 19:32, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * This slur is frequently used against all people who were amab because it functions as gender policing.--Reprarina (talk) 02:14, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I think its use a slur for trans women is notable enough on its own though. It may well be used again "all people who were AMAB", sure, but it isn't as such a "slur for AMABs". It's for gay men - and for trans women. It IS a thing. Trans women get called it for being trans woman. Nobody gets called it merely for being "AMAB" alone. StrexcorpEmployee (talk) 01:25, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

US pejorative slang
This is an incredibly American article.

It has a short section detailing 'importation by and usage of the word within the United Kingdom' - except it really just isn't a word used much if at all as a pejorative / homophobic slur in UK culture. It is well-known, from aforementioned US media / cultural imports, but that's the point; it's known as something the Americans say.

British don't really use it, mostly because it's so confusing and weird to do so. We already (as mentioned) use 'faggot' for several innocuous things and it's a stupid-sounding word; 'fag' is universally a cigarette not a gay man in normal conversation... British teens will literally just use the direct call-out "Gay" as a pejorative and standard-strength homophobic slur (what a weird thing to be writing, by the way). If stronger is needed, they'll just add "Fucking" to something like 'queer' for best aggressive articulation of the mouth. 'Faggot' isn't harsh-sounding enough for the way Brits swear and curse.

So, look; this article is about a word which, due to awareness of Americanisms, causes problems from time to time in the UK (notably with censorship of the Christmas song 'Fairytale of new york') but this article should be far more clearly marked as being about a US slang pejorative term, as it's really not that in the UK and i just don't feel that this article reads clearly enough in that manner.

(And if you simply cite sources & examples, then yes of course you're going to very easily find all of the few dozen sensationalist examples in the media where it has been held up as a problem - and you're just going to ignore or miss the huge cultural backdrop of correct context - ie; you will get the wrong impression.) 2a00:23c7:3119:ad01:9de0:d1c8:7b0f:934d (talk) 17:01, 25 December 2022: (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? There is a section on British use that says all this. Did you even read the article? Dronebogus (talk) 05:42, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 15 April 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Faggot. Faggot moved to Faggot (disambiguation). (closed by non-admin page mover) – Material  Works   (contribs)  15:17, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Technically "performed by" me per MaterialWorks's WP:RMTR due to protection. DMacks (talk) 16:02, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Faggot (slang) → Faggot (slur) – Slur seems more accurate than slang. While the article does mention that some people have reclaimed the term, it's much more widely perceived as a slur, isn't it? Clovermoss 🍀 (talk) 14:51, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

 * support per nom—blindlynx 15:27, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 16:19, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Estar8806 (talk) 17:25, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Support, as per nominator. Paintspot Infez (talk) 17:43, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose. It is only a slur in the US.  The article encompasses British usage of the term, which has a different meaning and is not a slur. "Slang" would be broader and better captures all the meanings of the term discussed in the article.  Walrasiad (talk) 15:48, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not American and I recognize it as a slur. The use in the United Kingdom section refers to other usages of the word, like the meatball, etc. It doesn't say that directing this specific term at a gay man wouldn't be considered offensive, just that other words are more commonly used for the same purpose. Since this article is specifically about this usage of the term and not about meatballs or cigarettes, that shouldn't really impact the title of this article. I knit and there's something called faggoting. I wouldn't claim that saying that to a guy was perfectly fine just because it happens to also be used as a knitting term, y'know? Clovermoss 🍀  (talk) 16:03, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The content of the article seems to be encompassing the term in all its slang uses, not merely as a slur. If you want to reduce the article to the US slur alone, then some content should be removed (to, say, a parent article on its other usages). Which seems to be rather pointless duplication.  It seems to be more expedient to just keep it all here, and leave the title broad. Walrasiad (talk) 16:50, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * We already have faggot which disambiguates the other uses. Mentioning that there are other uses in the UK seems fine as background context. As I said, the UK section mentions that this is used as a pejorative there so saying this is simply a "US slur" is inaccurate. Clovermoss 🍀  (talk) 16:56, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Move to Faggot. This article is definitely the primary topic. 162 etc. (talk) 16:54, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Support this, clearly PRIMARY.--Ortizesp (talk) 14:54, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Support move to Faggot as very clearly the primary topic over the bundle of sticks, the meatball, or any other usage. : 3 F4U (they/it) 23:44, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Support move to Faggot per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. In any case, oppose proposed move to Faggot (slur). If it's to remain disambiguated, whether the disambiguator is slang or slur simply doesn't matter. Neither is "more accurate" than the other. Therefore no good reason to move. --В²C ☎ 04:29, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Removal of "Reclamation" Section
Struggling to see the necessity of an entirely new section for less than a paragraph of words with three different sources dating back to 2020 and 2019. It could very well, and likely should, be shifted into the "2010s-2020s" section of use, where both the sources originate from and the point of "Reclamation" is fully emerged.

Putting it up to the Talk page for other users to discuss before any action is taken. Vilo2023 (talk) 20:47, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

 * That 21st century section is for music rather than the word in general —Panamitsu (talk) 22:55, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Apologies, missed that headline. Even still, the "Reclamation" section could very well be made into a section of "Use", rather than having a tab to itself. Vilo2023 (talk) 16:26, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Other uses
I think the lead needs to indicate that in non-american countries (UK/NZ/etc), a fag or faggot refers to a cigarette (and it has several other less-common meanings). It was only a few years ago that I learnt that the American meaning is not a cigarette. I realise that there is a disambiguation, but it should be noted here that the definition is not just a slur, as it mentions in the rest of the article, and as what the article cunt says.

I added the cigarette definition to the lead and it was removed by. What do you think? —Panamitsu (talk) 23:56, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
 * This article here is about a single meaning. Other meanings go on other pages instead, per Disambiguation standard. As the Hatnote says:
 * DMacks (talk) 00:01, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I think it's not nessecary to include this information in the lead because we already link to the disambiguation page and this article is about the slur and not the other uses of the term. I will also note that this slur's usage is not restricted to the US. Clovermoss 🍀  (talk) 00:02, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * "For other uses" does not make it clear that it has other meanings. This is not like Mercury planet versus the mercury element, as they are spoken words. This is just like how "cunt" can be a compliment in New Zealand, whereas it is a slur in the US. Yes, it is not restricted to the US, but it is the US that most associates "fag" with a slur. —Panamitsu (talk) 00:15, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * "For other uses" does not make it clear that it has other meanings – I disagree with the premise of this argument completely. Anyways, I'll wait for the input of other editors because I think we're kind of talking past each other at this point and unlikely to convince the other of why we think the way we do. Clovermoss 🍀  (talk) 00:33, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * This hatnote is exactly the style recommended by WP:HATDAB, our sitewide guideline for these sorts of things. DMacks (talk) 00:53, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * This hatnote is exactly the style recommended by WP:HATDAB, our sitewide guideline for these sorts of things. DMacks (talk) 00:53, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Faggot