text:
Talk:Emerald Tablet

Mediation vs Meditation
Newton's translation speaks of 'mediation' while the latin text reads 'meditatione' ('meditation'). Is there a typo somewhere? --94.209.127.141 (talk) 15:06, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
 * "mediation" makes sense in context, "meditation" doesn't. I'd say a priori the error is in the Latin, whether a typo in this article, or a copyist's error in the received source, I dunno. A Latin paleographer needed?  --D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 00:59, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Checked the cited source online, it definitely has "meditatione", so the article is correct & as a quote it must stand, unless someone can come up with an antecedent source. Would it be over-pedantic to add [sic] to the transcluded text? ✅

BTW, the 'imaginative 17th century depiction' in the picture in the lead also has "meditatione", but since it's 40 years later than the 1541 book that doesn't help us much; it may well have been copied from the 1541 text.--D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 01:42, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Couldn't find a verbatim or facsimile copy of Santalla online, which would appear to be the earliest Latin version, although there were tantalizing hints that others have studied it. It may turn out we need an Arabic scholar, not a Latin one. Some sources translate the vexatious word 'by contemplation', which would go to support meditatione. And that's my last word on this earth-shaking controversy, at least until someone else jumps in. --D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 02:18, 17 July 2019 (UTC) See also section Latin Text below. --D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 01:42, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

 * The reading "meditatione" is definitely the original one in the vulgate translation (see the article as updated, and Steele and Singer's edition). The word meditatio, in its secondary sense of "the act of planning or devising", is in fact one of the possible translations for the Arabic tadbīr (تدبير, meaning "arrangement, administration, government", from dabbara, "to arrange, to dispose, to plan, to prepare, to organize, to hatch, to contrive, to devise, to forecast, to set free, to direct, to manage, to regulate"). Compare Hugo of Santalla's consilii administratione ("by the administration of the plan"), and the Secretum secretorum's disposicione ("by the arrangement/management/direction"), both of which are also technically correct if somewhat unclear translations of the Arabic bi-tadbīr.

 * However, since only the vulgate was widely known or regarded as authoritative, it was never compared to the other Latin translations (let alone to the Arabic), and as a consequence the word meditatio was not well understood. It was widely interpreted according to its primary meaning, i.e., "contemplation" (see, e.g., Hortulanus' commentary "meditatione, id est cogitatione et creatione"; cf. Steele and Singer's translation as also given in the article, "by contemplation"). Since this meaning does not seem to fit the context, meditatione was sometimes taken to be an error for mediatione (apparently by Newton, and more recently also by Julius Ruska (1926. Tabula Smaragdina. Ein Beitrag zur Geschichte der hermetischen Literatur. Heidelberg: Winter, p. 117, who was unfortunately followed by Litwa, M. David 2018. Hermetica II: The Excerpts of Stobaeus, Papyrus Fragments, and Ancient Testimonies in an English Translation with Notes and Introductions. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, p. 315 in his recent translation of the vulgate). However, the meaning "administration, arrangement, direction, regulation, planning" certainly does fit the context, and is very likely to be the originally intended meaning (i.e., all things came to be from one [thing] and by the administration of one [thing]). Apaugasma (talk) 11:05, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Thoth
Whilst Thoth can be identified as the Egyptian Hermes. I find the often repeated claim that Hermes Trismegistus is a syncretism of Thoth and Hermes to be without firm foundation. Syncretism of Greek and Egyptian deities is available in the archeological record, such as Zeus-Ammon. However no such deity as Thoth-Hermes can be found especially as a precursor to Hermes Trismegistus. I'm not sure what you authors want to with this information since all someone has to do is cite someone else that's made the claim even though there are more writers these days rejecting the idea, as a hangover from the occult and magical speculations of earlier times.

It's time the preposterous idea was laid to rest! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.25.109.197 (talk) 14:08, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

 * This is a very strange comment. Actually, the evidence is abundant, and documented by scholars of the highest standing. A survey of this evidence may be found in Bull, Christian H. 2018. The Tradition of Hermes Trismegistus: The Egyptian Priestly Figure as a Teacher of Hellenized Wisdom. Leiden: Brill, pp. 33-96. Admittedly, most of the evidence is literary in nature, but there also is some good archaeological evidence. Consider, e.g., Bull 2018, p. 34: "Ostraca found in the archive of Hor, in Saqqara around 168 BCE, by a stroke of good fortune yield both a Demotic and a Greek version of the epithet (Ḏḥwty pꜣ ꜥꜣ pꜣ ꜥꜣ pꜣ ꜥꜣ [i.e., "Thoth the great the great the great"], and μέγιστος καὶ μέγιστος θεός μεγάλος Ἑρμῆς [i.e., "the greatest and greatest great god Hermes"])". Apaugasma (talk) 16:04, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Problem With Translation?
The given translation seems to have been edited to sound more archaic. Eg. the persistent misuse of "ye" to mean "the" -- "ye" is a pronoun, and phrases such as "ye olde inn" are actually nonsense. A better version of the Newton translation can be found at http://www.alchemylab.com/isaac_newton.htm. Some sites, such as http://www.sacred-texts.com/alc/emerald.htm, have a version identical to what was on this page, citing "Newton's Commentary on the Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trismegistus" by B.J. Dobbs as a source. I don't have access to this work, but if it's from 1988 as stated it's likely not in the public domain. I also find this version at other sites, all of which appear to have plagiarized a common source. For these reasons I am removing the version here and linking to the external pages. If I am in error, please note it here and feel free to revert. --[67.76.31.254] (Apprarently) 30 July 04

 * No. Late 17th/early 18th century English actually was *spelled* that way, although spoken with the 'th' sound.  See here here: it's a matter of orthography, not pronunciation.  The translation may have been quoted in a 1988 work, but the copyright on the text itself is surely expired after three centuries.

 * Now, there might be an argument for the whole text not being appropriate to an encyclopedia article, archaic spelling and copyright are not, I believe, grounds for removal here. --Bacchiad 19:34, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * I'd oppose any such edit- it is so short it adds an incredible amount to the article. A similar example is the 'All Your Base Are Belong To Us' article, where the reproduced 'All your base' text is actually longer than the Tablet here- but remove the transcript, and the article is considerably more difficult to understand, and arguably less valuable. --maru 23:08, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

A Contemporary Translation/Interpretation of The Emerald Tablet
The origin of the Hermes' Emerald Tablet has posed just as much of a mystery as does its interpretation. The Emerald Tablet is the cornerstone of western alchemical thought. Alchemy is the practical application of the Hermetic Philosophy which is contained, in total, in its 13 succinct portions. Hermes Trismegistus (thrice great), a supreme magus, is the author of the transcendent masterpiece called "The Emerald Tablet" which is the most revered magical / transcendental writing in all of Western mysticism. The date of its origin is unknown, however, some translations of the tablet go back to the 12th century and much earlier. The Emerald Tablet has challenged many of the greatest minds the world has ever produced, and numerous commentaries have been offered.

1)       The following is true and, of all truths, it is the truest 2)        Everything, all of the pairs of opposites, is an expression of The One Thing...the "One Thing" being what Man calls "God". 3)       The "One Thing" is the mediator and for Man to have a second birth he must adapt himself to the mediations of The One.     4)        The Sun is its' father because the Sun is a symbol of the soul or creative power (The Light), the moon was its'     mother because the moon is a symbol of the body which, like the moon, has no light of its own...the wind carries it in its' belly because it is a spirit...its' nurse is the Earth, the nurturing garden in which Man was created. 5)       Its desire for perfection brings it forth from the womb (egg, crypt, tomb) of matter, 6)        In its' original "Adamic" condition it has dominion over all created things, 7)       To ascend from "the below" to "the above" the fire/light/soul/spirit/consciousness is distilled from the relatively gross physical body, gently and exercising great ingenuity it weans itself from undue material desires, 8)        It ascends from the physical to the spiritual and, formulating an enlightened desire, it incarnates once again, possessing the powers of both heaven and earth, blessed with the glory of the whole world and free of all obscurity, 9)       It is eternal and is the matrix upon which everything, both subtle and solid, is manifest. 10)       This is how the world was created....spirit into form. 11)      All wonderful adaptations are produced in this way...desire...patient surrender...and manifestation, 12)       Therefore, I am called Hermes Trismegistus, having the three parts of the philosophy of the whole world, being: a) spirit  b) consciousness and c) form - 13)     What I have to tell concerning the operation of the Soul (Sol/Sun) is complete.

Notes: -   Alchemy is ostensibly the art of extracting gold from lead. Alchemy, in "reality", is the art of extracting the spirit (gold) from the body (lead or "stone"). The work of alchemy is conducted by the indwelling consciousness co-operating with God or Nature. -   The "art" of alchemy is also symbolized by an "emerald". An emerald is something of great worth extracted from the earth and mirrors the true work of the Hermetic practice of alchemy, i.e., extracting something of great worth (the spirit) from the physical body. -   The physical body is "the stone" which must, first, be divided in two (splitting the ADAM) and without the awareness of the spirit, enlightenment, the body remains "intact" and incapable of practicing the Hermetic Arts. -   The two parts that the body is split into are: spirit and form. Consciousness (awareness) mediates between spirit and form. -   The color of an emerald is green, which is composed of two chromatic opposites: yellow and blue. The emerald is a symbol of "En-LIGHT-ened" Man. Man, according to the Hermetic Philosophy (interpreted), is a physical form (symbolized by the moon because the body, like the moon, is a baron wasteland without the spirit or "light" of the Sun / spirit) composed of two seeming opposing forces: spirit and body. Spirit is symbolized by "yellow gold" and consciousness is symbolized by air and the color (sky) blue and the "stone" is symbolized by the emerald. Green is the color of the Earth. All three combined in perfect proportion produce a living (awakened) soul; see, Awake, Other Meanings''. Copyright© John Charles Webb, Jr., July 2000 - Reproduced on Wikipedia.org with the author's permission, otherwise, All Rights Reserved.'' External Link http://www.templeofsolomon.org/Etablet.htg/emerald_tablet.htm John Charles Webb Entry July 20 2005

Nonsense
The oldest documentable source for the text is the Kitab Sirr al-Asrar, a pseudo-Aristotelian compendium of advice for rulers authored by Abd al-Qadir al-Jilani in around 800 AD.

Either the date or the attribution (or both!) is incorrect. Al-Jilani lived during the 1100s. Shimmin 14:14, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I concur; something is wrong here. al-Jilani was likely born around 1075; the evidence is that the Kitab Sirr al-Asrar was composed in the tenth century, and it seems certain that it was extant long before al-Jilani's time.

MHrynick 03:50, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Seems this was based on some outdated info. Should be fixed now. Correct book listed. Car Henkel (talk) 15:19, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Broken Link
The "Historical overview of the tablet" link doesn't seem to work. I cannot find the page through Google. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.21.164.74 (talk • contribs) 20:43, April 3, 2006 (UTC)
 * It works now. Perhaps the server was temporarily down. --Blainster 20:46, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Where is proof or an image of the actual tablets? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.234.179.204 (talk) 04:37, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

New Translation
Concerning the discussion of the translations sounding archaic and being generally obscure, I am going to edit the article to include the translation from The Book of Aquarius. The author appears to understand the principles of the Emerald Tablet and provides a more up-to-date translation, but still keeping the original feel of it. If anyone has a problem with this please reply. There is a full commentary on the Emerald Tablet in The Book of Aquarius. I don't know whether the other contributors feel that a commentary would be useful to this article, or whether it might lean towards making the article bias. That is assuming that the commentary is bias. Let's discuss. Will Timony, Ph.D (talk) 07:47, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Removed. Book of Aquarius = online, nonacademic webpage - falls under WP:NOTRS as previously discussed. Car Henkel (talk) 03:13, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Ha! It amuses me that every time I mention BoAquarius you dispute it. But OK, I see your point. I'm getting into more academic reading on the topic anyway (which I always did, but I appear to be becoming more conservative), hope to contribute more from this side. I remember recently reading something about the first recorded version of Emerald Tablet, I'll try to find where that was and cite it here. Will Timony, Ph.D (talk • contribs) 07:49, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Arabic translation
The translation is from the Kitāb sirr al-ḫalīqa and not the Kitāb ul-īḍāḥ li-Arisţūţālis fi'l-khayri'l-maḥd (Liber de Causis) as previously mentioned. I changed the reference in the paragraph. Jyar (talk) 07:42, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

what about the THIRTEEN tablets of thoth??
check this out http://www.crystalinks.com/emerald.html

why is the 13 tablets of thoth not mentioned in this article? 88.235.33.198 (talk) 20:49, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
 * This work is by most reputable accounts a modern work fabricated by Michael Doreal. If you believe Doreal's assertion that it's a 36,000 year old Atlantean work that he translated (from the Atlantean?), information regarding it would belong in a separate article.  It is mentioned in the article on Thoth. Car Henkel (talk) 21:37, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You find no purpose in mentioning that there is a topic scripture, fabricated or not, that is called '13 emerald tablets of thoth', in an article called 'emerald tablet' that is also claimed to be someone calling themself 'hermes trismegistus' and by your own article is also called 'thoth' ?? As a service for people seeking information, you find no value in letting them know that there is something called '13 emerald tablets of thoth' ?
 * YOU HAVE STILL NOT ANSWERED THE QUESTION, IS it not in the interest of people seeking information on 'emerald tablets' to find out that there is a work called '13 emerald tablets of thoth' ?

Can you provide 'the most reputable accounds' as sources that it is fabricated by doreal ?

88.235.33.198 (talk) 19:31, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, i have created a page called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13_Emerald_Tablets can you please add a link there — Preceding unsigned comment added by Odarcan (talk • contribs) 19:50, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Too many translations?
Does any one know where the Contemporary translation comes from? Also, I'm not sure the one listed as the Arabic translation is from a good source. Do we want to have more than a couple translations in here (there are tonnes out there)? Will do my best to work on this, but wondered if any one else had ideas. The French page has some good info. Car Henkel (talk) 22:47, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

 * Agreed. I put WP:SPS and WP:INCITE tags at the top and in the Arabic transl. section. The policy on self-published sources states, "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." Since I don't read Arabic, I wouldn't question the quality of Nineveh Shadrach's translation. He's published books on occult magic and is listed as an expert on occult magic on sever special interest websites. But I can't find any publication reprinting his translation or previous translations, so unless someone has such a citation, it's in violation. That would solve the problem of too many translations, though! But I'd consider whether a WP article is the place for a full translation anyway, as that might be a copyright violation and not up to WP quality standards.
 * MisterGoodTime (talk) 07:29, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay... got rid of the two problematic translations. The ones left in should be safely in the public domain.  There's three in there as of now 1) the Newton translation as double checked on the Indiana U page 2) the Theatrum Chemicum translation 3) the Latin text.  I don't see a reason why we need more than this anyway. Going to get rid of the templates at the top of the article since they were inserted in relation to this.Car Henkel (talk) 04:15, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The article is in much better shape thanks to your efforts. Much appreciated!
 * MisterGoodTime (talk) 05:39, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Latin Text
The latin text cited from the source "Alchemiae Gebri Arabis ..." is not faithful to the original. At least one phrase switches the position of two words. I have consulted the source and found the cited work in page 294. My own rendition of the original follows. I have preserved the original typography to the maximum of my ability.

Verum ſine mendacio, certum & ueriſſimum. Quod eſt inferius, eſt ſicut quod eſt ſuperius. Et quod eſt ſuperius, eſt ſicut quod eſt inferius, ad perpetranda miracula rei unius. Et ſicut omnes res fuerunt ab uno, meditatione unius. Sic omnes res natæ fuerunt ab hac una re, adaptione. Pater eius eſt Sol, mater eius Luna. Portauit illud uentus in uentre ſuo. Nutrix eius terra eſt. Pater omnis teleſmi totius mundi eſt hic. Vis eius integra eſt, ſi uerſa fuerit in terram. Separabis terram ab igne, ſubtile à ſpiſſo, ſuauiter cum magno ingenio. Aſcendit à terra in cœlum, iterumque deſcendit in terram, & recipit uim ſuperiorum & inferiorum. Sic habebis gloriam totius mundi. Ideo fugiet à te omnis obſcuritas. Hic eſt totius fortitudinis fortitudo fortis, quia uincet omnem rem ſubtilē, omnemque ſolidam penetrabit. Sic mundus creatus eſt. Hinc erunt adaptationes mirabiles, quarum modus hic eſt. Itaque uocatus ſum Hermes Triſmegiſtus, habens tres partes philoſophiæ totius mundi. Completum eſt quod dixi de operatione Solis.

--PedroLamarao (talk) 01:38, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
 * See also "Mediation vs Meditation" above. Your rendition still has meditatione which just doesn't make sense to me—but maybe I am construing badly? I tried a

couple of online translators for "mediation", got garbage from some, meditatione from one, from another meditkatione(!), but the following seemed clear (from ): – Disputes are best determined by mediation. – Praeterea contentiones sint maxime constituta per mediationem adhibitis. until I tried reverse-translating the English text from the article, when I got: – as all things have been and arose from one by the mediation of one – omnia et ab uno, meditatione[!] unius fuerunt
 * Now meditatione is b-a-a-c-k! The Latin translation is suspiciously identical to the Geber source cited in the article; perhaps the translator's diction was directly influenced by Wikipedia? It happens rather often! So it's seemingly up in the air until the putative Latin paleographer steps in. --D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 23:25, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

 * Meditatione most definitely is the original reading, meaning "by the planning/devising/contriving/arranging"; see my comments above. Apaugasma (talk) 11:38, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

On the larger issue of the transcluded text vs the facsimile original, there are clearly a number of errors, including one sentence missing altogether in the Latin text (but included in the English translation above it). Word order does not usually affect the sense in Latin, but for a quote or transclusion, it should be as faithful as possible. As far as I can determine, PedroLamara's rendition is faithful & accurate, except that he has expanded a couple of "-que" suffixes, which I agree with. On the whole, I think it better to go with plain text in the article, even though PedroLamara's rendition preserves the original even closer; the font works on my browser, but not in my text editor.

I will make the necessary changes to the transcluded Latin text, working from the facsimile at the cited source, keeping the existing font; please review. --D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 00:00, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

The Emeral Tablet of Hermes vs. The Emerald Tablets of Thoth the Atlantean
Personally, I think new students learning about occultism & Hermeticism should be given greater clarification about these two things, as they're separate & totally different from each other. The Emeral Tablet of Hermes is just a few paragraphs of text that was first translated by an Arab during the 10th or 11th century, as part of the translation movement, whereas the "13 Emeral Tablets of Thoth the Atlantean" is a 13-chapter, fictional work of New Age philosophy written by Maurice Doreal in 1939. Its contents are extremely different from that of the Emerald Tablet of Hermes, as it's written mostly to teach the doctrine of Doreal's "Brotherhood of the White Temple" (a self-described occult school structured in a similar manner to Freemasonry, except for its own philosophy). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.194.12.221 (talk) 03:08, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
 * For us to discuss Doreal's work, we would need non-primary professional academic sources that describe it. We don't engage in or use original research.  Ian.thomson (talk) 03:15, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

Naturally, I understand that we would need proper sources for this information (in keeping with the spirit of Wikipedia,) but how possible is it, if no actual 3rd party sources are known, or if those 3rd party sources are false or biased in some manner? Especially since this the works of Maurice Doreal aren't widely discussed or studied. This said, I'm more than willing to do my part; where would I begin such research? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.194.12.221 (talk) 03:34, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

 * It seems like, confusion about which is which continues to be widespread, so I've stuck the "Emerald Tablets of Thoth" in again. Wombat140 (talk) 11:44, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
 * If there are good wp:secondary sources explicitly discussing the relation of the Emerald Tablets Of Thoth The Atlantean to the Emerald Tablet, then a section about this might one day be added to the article body. Only if such a section exists would it be wp:due to add a sentence (and nothing more than a sentence!) to the lead. Since we have nothing like that for the moment, a hatnote linking to the Emerald Tablets Of Thoth The Atlantean is the best we can do, so I added that. ☿ Apaugasma  ( talk  ☉) 14:33, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh, it seems like, I hadn't thought of using that, that's a better idea. Wombat140 (talk) 15:26, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

“The Alchemy Web Site”
I’d love to get some other perspectives on this, but “The Alchemy Web Site”, which seems to be maintained by a single person of questionable web-design sensibilities, just does not strike me as a reliable source. I have removed the following section sourced from it.

—67.14.236.50 (talk) 23:26, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

 * The design may belong to the mid 90s, but that site's owner is a recognized author in the field. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:35, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Also a major author of his own WP article . But if you think it satisfies WP:SPS and benefits the article, I wouldn’t object to restoring it. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 23:41, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * His attempted edits are not currently in the article. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:39, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * If you wanted to keep it out for the sake of brevity ok, but as stated above McLean is a good source. Could likely use another source link for the translation, but the "The Alchemy Website" link contains valuable further information. Aside: I did a major edit on Adam McLean a while back and the autobiographical content has been removed. Car Henkel (talk) 23:44, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

-

Image
Nice to see you keeping an eye on this page! Bit surprised you reverted the image edit though - seems much lower quality (though stronger contrast) than. Could you possibly give me some advice on how you made the call so I have a better idea of where to replace images with higher res ones and where not to in the future? Zeromonk (talk) 07:54, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Could be screen setting, but on my screen the image you used is faded compared to the easily seen crisp present image. It is also obviously from a book (notice the crease line up the middle), while the long-term image used on the page is also from a book but not obviously. Maybe other editors will comment, thanks for the ping. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:01, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Newton’s Translation, Reformatted
The existing translation was an unreadable jumble of words with no line breaks. This is not how it appears in the referenced source, so I made a best effort attempt to clean it up and make it understandable for interested readers. I did not alter any of the wording. If someone with more experience can improve on this it would be great, I just think it’s important to have a copy of the translation here that is actually readable.

Keypusher (talk) 05:47, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Ken Wheeler's translation I deleted as a copyright violation
That was pretty obvious, but I thought I'd add a bit I found. I'm still not sure who he is, but it's not a translation. He thinks it's a sort of shorthand, eg that Boy Store Bread" should be written out as "The boy went to the store and bought some bread".  Doug Weller  talk 09:27, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

Selwood 2023
The feature at Medievalists.net by Selwood 2023 (direct link) contains several rather serious inaccuracies.

For example, Selwood regards the critical edition of the Emerald Tablet in Steele & Singer 1928, which is based on eight different manuscripts (see Steele & Singer 1928 p. 46/490), as a "transcription" of only one manuscript, MS Arundel 164. This leads him to the conclusion that Steele & Singer's 'transcription' "contains material errors". But as a critical edition Steele & Singer's text contains readings from other manuscripts, which renders the resulting text different from MS Arundel 164: this is of course a feature, not a bug.

Also, for some reason Selwood doesn't perceive that Mandosio 2004b (pp. 691–692) is simply a (duly cited and explicitly attributed) copy of Steele & Singer's 1928 critical edition. Instead, Selwood regards it as yet another 'transcription' containing 'errors' (as compared to MS Arundel 164).

Finally, Selwood seems not to realize that the 'Vulgate' version of the Tablet in Steele & Singer's 1928 is part of an Arabic collection of alchemical commentaries variously called Liber dabessi, Liber Hermetis de alchimia or Liber rebis (see Mandosio 2004b, p. 683). Steele & Singer 1928 p. 41/485 mention that it is "a translation made, probably early in the twelfth century, from an Arabic collection of explanations and commentaries on [...] the Emerald Table". Mandosio 2004b pp. 683–684 confirms that it is Latin translation of an Arabic commentary on the Tablet, adding that this version ultimately goes back on an Arabic commentary tradition taking the Sirr al-khalīqa/De secretis nature as its basis (though the translation is independent from the Latin translation of the Sirr al-khalīqa made by Hugo of Santalla).

Now Selwood casually declares the Vulgate version edited by Steele & Singer as part of the Liber dabessi to be translated from the Sirr al-asrār/Secretum Secretorum (which he also misleadingly calls "a text thought to have been written by Plato’s student, Aristotle", apparently ignoring that this text is pseudo-Aristotelian), even though it is clearly very different from the actual version of the Tablet in the Secretum Secretorum. Selwood was likely confused by the fact that Albertus Magnus in his De mineralibus names the Vulgate version of the Tablet from the Liber dabessi as Secretum secretissimorum Hermetis, but as Caiazzo 2004 p. 702 notes, Albertus Magnus probably took this name from one ms. of the Liber dabessi which also uses it and in any case Albertus did not even know the pseudo-Aristotelian Secretum Secretorum at the time he wrote the De mineralibus (Steele & Singer, Mandosio, and Caiazzo all say that Albertus was using the version of the Liber dabessi; the name is simply a red herring that likely confused Selwood).

On top of all this it should be noted that Selwood 2023 is equivalent to a self-published source, and that he in no way is an expert on alchemy (see also his article here), which would render Selwood 2023 an unreliable source by Wikipedia's standards.

In other words, though it may perhaps be helpful to note in our article that Selwood published a transcription of Arundel MS 164 (not a 'corrected' one obviously), he should probably not be used for anything else. If there should be anything of interest in Selwood 2023, please look it up in more reliable sources and cite those instead. Thanks, ☿ Apaugasma  ( talk  ☉) 00:46, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Tad
The 2022 Spanish animated film Tad, the Lost Explorer and the Emerald Tablet (and its video game and its musical play) features an emerald tablet as the macguffin. However I have not found reliable sources about how the tablet is related to this tablet. -- Error (talk) 17:13, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Serrol Khaleeqe translation and such
As it stands this article de facto requires decent knowledge of the Arabic language to so much as appreciate the textual variants introduced here, moreover the cited translation in Rosenthal 1975 is not just based on Ruska 1926 with the issues elaborated on in the article it is also just not very useful for appreciating differences in these variants beginning with translation opening on a non-existent "hadha" and running all through the text. As I've seen in the history @Apaugasma once added a copyrighted translation and though obviously the copyright status of that is a problem the basic idea I think is very necessary to preserve utility for non-Arabic speakers in the article. So my proposal is putting something like this literal translation next to the Arabic text to make a non-Arabic speaker appreciate a little more what's going on:

"(a) truth; no doubt [it] is true, indeed, the uppermost is from the lowermost and the lowermost is from the uppermost, [it] worked the wonders from one, [just] as all things come from one by means of one plan/with one considered act, [its] father is the sun, [its] mother is the moon, the wind carried [it] in her womb, the earth fed [it], father of talismans, keeper of wonders, perfect in power, fire became earth, I separate the earth from the fire, the soft/delicate/gentle is more noble than the crude/rough/unintelligent, with gentle-being and wisdom [it] ascends from the earth to the heaven and descends to the earth from the heaven, and in [it] is the power of the uppermost and the lowermost, since with [it] is the light of lights therefore the darkness escapes (away) from [it], power of powers it prevails over everything soft/delicate/gentle, enters into everything crude/rough/unintelligent, against the creation of the macrocosm the work was created, this is my renown and therefore I am named Hermes the threefold with the wisdom.

 * Arabic just has two genders and this grammatically male so [it] can also be [he]"

I've seen you put a lot of care in having this article well cited so I won't unilaterally put a translation like this in if you don't think it benefits the article more than it hurts it. Bari' bin Farangi (talk) 03:19, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

 * Wow Bari' bin Farangi, that's a great literal transliteration! The reason why I did not provide a translation myself is that I'm concerned that translating a primary source, and such an esoteric source which has baffled scholars at that, would fall afoul of WP:NOR. That policy does state that faithfully translating sourced material into English, or transcribing spoken words from audio or video sources, is not considered original research. However, it also states that any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation, and do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so. It would be hard to argue that a translation of a text like the Emerald Tablet would not constitute an interpretation, but if it is an interpretation, we would of course have no secondary source to back that interpretation up.
 * Now you may argue that your translation tries to be as literal as possible, and being somewhat of an expert on the Emerald Tablet I can confirm that your translation is indeed both reasonably accurate and very literal. There are some things which from my own original research I know to be inaccurate and which I know should be translated differently, but I won't mention these precisely because I don't want to infuse this article with my own original research. Points that I can mention because they do not involve interpretation are the following:
 * ٱعزِل should be translated as an imperative "separate". This can be easily deduced from the Latin translations, sc. Hugo of Santalla's "eam ex igne subtili [...] educite", the Secretum secretorum's "Separa terrenum ab igneo", and the Nuremberg 1541's "separabis terram ab igne", all of which have imperatives.
 * لطيف and غليظ are generally translated by scholars with "subtle" and "gross" respectively (cf. Newton's translation of the vulgate; Holmyard 1927's translation of Jabir's version; Steele & Singer 1928's translation of the Liber dabessi's version), so it's probably better to just stick to that.
 * In the end, even though I have my concerns about OR, I won't oppose adding an editorial translation, assuming that you yourself have not been engaged in original research regarding the Emerald Tablet. Thanks, ☿ Apaugasma  ( talk  ☉) 04:24, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * For ٱعزِل I assumed to have been supposed to be أعزِل based on it not being preceded by a vowel, if (as you correctly checked again) it is ٱعزِل in the source (however phonetically doubtful that may seem) the kasre of the imperative i3zil being swallowed by the alef al wasl would make both internally for the text and based on the translations and other versions the most sense, thus I would probably go with something like "separate" or "separate (directed at a male reader)" for the translation. I tried not to look at other translations except of course the English Mamorstein translation of the German Rosenthal one, which read very differently from the original text and thus was what motivated me to start editing the article. I had no prior familiarity with the subject beyond a glance at this article prior, as I always put off reading about this subject. Thus when producing my translation in fear of introducing interpretive elements that go beyond what's there, I tried to give a broad range of meanings for latif and ghaliz as they are of course extremely broad terms and the context in the text doesn't clearly imply a person or a thing at first glance. In the end my goal wasn't to produce a particularly readable or insightful text, just one that illustrates to an English language reader roughly what grammatically exists/doesn't exist in this Arabic text. I too have my concerns regarding NOR but given the lack of linguistic complexity in the source (most of the ambiguity seems to be concerned with the telos of what is written there, not what is there if that makes sense) I purposely left open all the kinds of decisions that would make the text nicer to read and would advance a particular vocabulary choice as more likely etc. I too would prefer a well cited maybe a little more readable but yet faithful translation in the article but given that this seemingly doesn't exist the choice between confronting potentially monolingual reader with a wall of text that is either meaningless at first glance and thus ignored or meaningless at second glance after trying to put it into a machine translation program and thus ignored, I would prefer to have something there. Bari' bin Farangi (talk) 05:17, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Given the way you and I have collaborated on this, and given how we with our different backgrounds kind of provide a check & balance for each other, I think this is a case where we can ignore all rules and improve Wikipedia by having it feature this editorial translation. It will indeed be enormously helpful to readers. Thanks again, ☿ Apaugasma  ( talk  ☉) 09:09, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Minor changes

 * Compact vs short: The source cited states: "though merely one paragraph long". Compact does not relate to length but density. I have not found a source that calls it compact. Therefore compact should be replaced with short.

 * So-called: There is no surviving tablet, if there ever was one, let alone one made of emerald. As the article states, emerald comes from its association with Hermes. However many publications show an actual emerald tablet on the cover, giving the impression such a tablet exists. Hence I'd argue using so-called is warranted.

Hypnôs (talk) 17:49, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Smaragdine Tablet as altname: It was rather uncommon the past decades, and is on par with several other version that are not mentioned either. Ngram comparison:
 * I'll address these points one by one:
 * does mention that the Tablet is one paragraph long, but he also mentions that this one paragraph covers various topics such as the relationship between the celestial world (the macrocosm, “that which is above”) and the terrestrial world (the microcosm, “that which is below”), monism, an unclear "it" which historically was believed to be the Philosophers' Stone, as well as perhaps secret information about how to prepare that precious substance, and other other topics which are less clear such as the Sun and Moon which may be references to Dry and wet principles. The Microcosm–macrocosm analogy, monism, the philosophers' stone, and elementary theory (dry and wet principles were regarded as building blocks of elements), all in one paragraph: I think that's pretty dense, and "compact" seems a fair description for that.
 * Yes, the article should make it clear from the start that it's a text, not an actual tablet. I'm not sure whether this is not already the case in the current revision. If clarification is needed, however, using "so-called" is not the way to do it, because that term is ambiguous. Probably the best way would be to include a summary in the lead of the  Secret of Creation's origin story about Apollonius of Tyana entering an underground vault below a statue of Hermes and finding the tablet in the hands of an old corpse on a golden throne, which should make it clear that it's a legend.
 * "Smaragdine Tablet" on Google Scholar still produces 147 results. For people who read these sources and search Wikipedia for Smaragdine Tablet, having the altname in the lead confirms that they arrived on the right page. That to me seems enough to mention it in the lead as a mos:altname, but of course opinions may vary.
 * ☿ Apaugasma  ( talk  ☉) 21:35, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the thorough response.
 * I agree with your first two points, and that better additions could clarify the issues.
 * On the third point, Emerald Table (762) and Smaragdine Table (175) have both more hits on google scholar than Smaragdine Tablet. Hypnôs (talk) 22:28, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * That's good to know. Still, "Smaragdine" seems to see some significant use, and my guess is that people who look for "Emerald Table" or "Smaragdine Table" and land on an article called "Emerald Tablet" which also mentions "Smaragdine Tablet" in the lead will likely be assured that they landed on the right page. This is one of the primary functions of the lead sentence.
 * Perhaps even better though would be to change Smaragdine Tablet in the lead to Smaragdine Table: this way we both have a more widely attested form and confirm that "Table" is also in use. I went ahead and made that change. ☿ Apaugasma  ( talk  ☉) 22:43, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Alright, good compromise. Hypnôs (talk) 22:44, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Lead image
The current lead image is a 17th century artist's impression and certainly not how the tablet looked like. As such, it seems to be primarily decorative and has little encyclopedic value as the lead image, and might even mislead people not reading the description.

Perhaps an alternative can be agreed upon, or maybe having no lead image is the better option, per MOS:LEADIMAGE. Hypnôs (talk) 20:12, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

 * The current caption very clearly says it's an imaginative depiction, and since it's a few centuries old it clearly illustrates the notability of the topic per MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE. Given this, I don't really see a problem. However, there of course has never been any real tablet (it's a textual fiction), and since this might be misleading to some people I'm also not against not having a lead image. I guess I'm neutral on this one. ☿ Apaugasma  ( talk  ☉) 20:28, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Emerald Tablet


text:
Tim Dorsey

Timothy Alan Dorsey (January 25, 1961 – November 26, 2023) was an American novelist. He is known for a series starring Serge A. Storms, a mentally disturbed vigilante antihero who rampages across Florida enforcing his own moral code against a variety of low-life criminals.

Biography
Tim Dorsey was born in Carmel, Indiana, and was taken to Florida by his mother at the age of 1. He grew up in Riviera Beach, a small town in Palm Beach County just north of West Palm Beach. Dorsey graduated from Bishop Guertin High School in Nashua N.H, in 1979.

Dorsey attended Auburn University, where he became the editor of The Auburn Plainsman, the student newspaper; he wrote about racism while at Auburn. Dorsey graduated in 1983 with a Bachelor's degree in Transportation. After graduation, he moved to Montgomery, Alabama, and served as a police reporter for a local newspaper. In 1987, Dorsey relocated to Tampa, Florida, and became a reporter for The Tampa Tribune. Until he resigned from the paper in 1999 to write full-time, he worked variously as political reporter, correspondent in the Tribune ' s Tallahassee bureau, copy desk editor, and, finally, night metro editor and news coordinator.

Dorsey lived in Tampa with his wife and two daughters and was a Tampa Bay Rays fan. He also still considered himself a Boston Red Sox fan, cultivated while attending Bishop Guertin High School while living in New Hampshire as a teen.

Dorsey died in Islamorada, Florida, on November 26, 2023, at the age of 62.

Serge Storms
Most of Dorsey's novels feature Serge A. Storms as the primary character. The character has several coexisting mental illnesses that render him obsessive, psychopathic, schizophrenic, and frequently homicidal, but Storms serves as the anti-hero in Dorsey's works due to his strong sense of moral absolutism and justice. Serge is intelligent, and frequently devises wildly inventive ways of condemning villains (or at least who he perceives as such) to death. His co-pilot in the majority of his adventures is Coleman, whose personality is the exact opposite of Serge. Whereas Serge is a high-strung straight-edged coffee addict, Coleman is an alcoholic drug user who goes to extreme lengths to maintain his buzz.

Short stories and Essay collections by Tim Dorsey

 * Florida Roadkill: A Survival Guide (2010)
 * Squall Lines: Selected articles & essays (2012) ISBN 978-1-47-925806-2
 * Tropical Warning: An Original Serge Storms Story and Other Debris (2013)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Tim Dorsey


text:
Talk:Crush (drink)

Availbilty of Small Market Flavors
Pineapple and Birch Beer can be found outside Newfoundland and Fort McMurray. I know some Sobey's Grocery store's in southern Alberta carry them (in limited amounts) in their Specialty Soda section (were they have the Cane Sugar and Olde type Root Beer). I live in Strathmore, Alberta and our Sobey's carries them, though no more than six can's per shipment and they cost about 70 cent more than a average can of soda. Henshin86 (talk) 21:55, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Availability of Diet Varieties
Where are the diet varieties available? I can find Diet Orange and Diet Cream Soda but no Diet Grape. I live in Ottawa, what gives? 99.246.7.143 (talk) 11:02, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Food and drink Tagging
This article talk page was automatically added with WikiProject Food and drink banner as it falls under Category:Food or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. The bot was instructed to tagg these articles upon consenus from WikiProject Food and drink. You can find the related request for tagging here. Maximum and careful attention was done to avoid any wrongly tagging any categories, but mistakes may happen... If you have concerns, please inform on the project talk page -- TinucherianBot (talk) 23:18, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Benzoic Acid Content
I had read an article a few years ago that these types of drinks that used benzoic acid as a perservative had to be reformalated, as benzoic acid tended to breakdown to benzene, a carcinogen. 71.127.23.22 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 18:56, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 12:30, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Discussion at Talk:Orange Crush (disambiguation)
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Orange Crush (disambiguation). Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 07:23, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Orange Crush (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 07:32, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

Crush Chocolate
Is this, or was it ever, an actual product? I can't find any proof that such a item ever existed. 184.99.162.159 (talk) 15:35, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

caffeine in Orange Crush?
Anybody know references that discuss caffeine content at different times? Around 1980 I remember noticing caffeine in the Orange Crush ingredients and reading somewhere that it was the most highly caffeinated soda at the time, more than Mountain Dew. A few years later, after Jolt took that crown, it was caffeine-free again. Not R (talk) 01:08, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

 * Crush hasn't had caffeine in decades, so it's probably not worth mentioning unless one other person notices it. 66.91.159.82 (talk) 19:39, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Available in Surrey BC Canada at Fleetwood Save On Foods
You can get this product at Save On Foods in Surrey BC Canada 70.68.8.229 (talk) 05:29, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussions at the nomination pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 01:52, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Crush Strawberry Soda Austin Calhoon Photograph.jpg (discussion)
 * Pineapple Crush (Paraguay).jpg (discussion)
 * Pineapple Crush.jpg (discussion)

title: Talk:Crush (drink)


text:
Nym

NYM or Nym may refer to:

Fictional characters

 * Corporal Nym, in several Shakespeare plays
 * Nymeria Sand or "Lady Nym", in the A Song of Ice and Fire novels and the Game of Thrones TV series
 * Nym, an alien pirate in Star Wars video games; see
 * Nym, in the role-playing video game Black Sigil: Blade of the Exiled

NYM

 * Nigerian Youth Movement
 * Northern Yearly Meeting, of US Quakers

Other uses

 * New York Mets, a Major League Baseball team that uses this abbreviation for box scores and television scoring displays
 * -nym, a suffix for many English nouns
 * Nym Crinkle (1835–1903), US newspaper writer
 * Karl Marx's nickname for his housekeeper Helene
 * Nadym Airport (IATA:NYM), Russia

title: Nym


text:
Victor Value

Victor Value was a London-based value supermarket group that operated at the discount end of the grocery trade.

The brand was started by the group London Grocers, who also ran London United Grocers, Bernard Best, Newmans Stores and Titus Ward & Co. In 1965, the rival supermarket chain Anthony Jackson Foodfare was purchased, which added a further 61 stores to the Victor Value chain.

In 1968, Victor Value had 217 stores, and was sold to Tesco for £1.75 million. Tesco converted many larger branches to their own brand including some to Tesco Home n' Wear, and closed a number of smaller branches which were in close proximity to an established Tesco store, while those that retained the Victor Value fascia traded at the budget end of the market. Prior to Tesco's purchase, the board of Victor Value had decided to drop S & H Pink saving stamps, using the £1 million it had cost to discount goods instead. The purchase of Victor Value by Tesco and trying to integrate it nearly brought the company down. Old Victor Value stores which survived after conversion to Tesco could, for some time, be identified by their distinctive blue and white tiled frontage.

At the beginning of the 1980s, some smaller town centre Tesco stores were rebranded as Victor Value. These town centre stores, including ones in Huyton and Bexleyheath, were used to trial new scanning and barcode technologies, before launching them as Tesco-branded stores. In 1986, frozen food supermarket chain Bejam purchased the 45 store chain from Tesco, itself being taken over by rival Iceland in January 1989. Victor Value's remaining stores were sold by Iceland to British discount supermarket chain Kwik Save.

title: Victor Value


text:
User talk:Sgeo/archive1

VR Communities
I didn't know this category even existed! --TIB 00:40, Aug 6, 2004 (UTC)
 * I just found out you created it 1 August. I am wondering if there was possibly any other related categories which yours might conflict with?  I suspect you checked, but am not sure.  If possible please respond on my talk page, as I have a tendancy to forget who I posted to. --TIB 00:44, Aug 6, 2004 (UTC)
 * I have a tendancy to research and post right after every find. Sorry.  Just caught this.  List of MMORPGs, when searching for "Toontown", which I would add your info too.

Infobox
May I use this Infobox as a starting point for my own infobox? -- Sgeo
 * Sure thing, its open to anyone, but since you just joined, you might want to spend a little longer getting used to the site and editing pages before taking on any big projects. -- Netoholic 02:40, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Vandals etc
Don't worry about it. I've had worse people following me round attacking other wikis before now. I'm sure he'll get bored soon enough. Angela. 01:16, Aug 27, 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:Sgeo/archive1


text:
Neoromanticism (music)

In Western classical music, neoromanticism is a return to the emotional expression associated with nineteenth-century Romanticism. Throughout the 20th and into the 21st century, numerous composers have created works which rejected or ignored emerging styles such as Modernism and Postmodernism.

Definitions
Neoromanticism was a term that originated in literary theory in the early 19th century to distinguish later kinds of romanticism from earlier manifestations. In music, it was first used by Richard Wagner in his polemical 1851 article "Oper und Drama", as a disparaging term for the French romanticism of Hector Berlioz and Giacomo Meyerbeer from 1830 onwards, which he regarded as a degenerated form of true romanticism. The word came to be used by historians of ideas to refer to music from 1850 onwards, and to the work of Wagner in particular. The designation "neo" was used to acknowledge the fact that music of the second half of the 19th century remained in a romantic mode in an unromantic age, dominated by positivism, when literature and painting had moved on to realism and impressionism.

According to Daniel Albright, "In the late twentieth century, the term Neoromanticism came to suggest a music that imitated the high emotional saturation of the music of (for example) Schumann [ Romanticism ], but in the 1920s it meant a subdued and modest sort of emotionalism, in which the excessive gestures of the Expressionists were boiled down into some solid residue of stable feeling." Thus, in Albright's view, neoromanticism in the 1920s was not a return to romanticism but, on the contrary, a tempering of an overheated post-romanticism.

In this sense, Virgil Thomson proclaimed himself to be "most easily-labeled practitioner [of Neo-Romanticism] in America," "Neo-Romanticism involves rounded melodic material (the neo-Classicists affected angular themes) and the frank expression of personal sentiments. . . . That position is an esthetic one purely, because technically we are eclectic. Our contribution to contemporary esthetics has been to pose the problems of sincerity in a new way. We are not out to impress, and we dislike inflated emotions. The feelings we really have are the only ones we think worthy of expression. . . . Sentiment is our subject and sometimes landscape, but preferably a landscape with figures.)"

Notable composers
The United States has a sizable tradition of neoromantic composers, following practitioners from the mid-20th century such as Aaron Copland, Samuel Barber, Leonard Bernstein, David Diamond, Ned Rorem and John Corigliano. Younger generations include Richard Danielpour, Jennifer Higdon, Aaron Jay Kernis, Robert Maggio and Christopher Rouse.

Since the mid-1970s the term has come to be identified with neoconservative postmodernism, especially in Germany, Austria, and the United States, with composers such as Wolfgang Rihm and George Rochberg. Currently active US-based composers widely described as neoromantic include David Del Tredici and Ellen Taaffe Zwilich. Francis Poulenc and Henri Sauguet were French composers considered neoromantic, while Virgil Thomson, Nicolas Nabokov, Howard Hanson and Douglas Moore were American composers considered neoromantic.

title: Neoromanticism (music)


text:
User talk:Eenspaaier

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia! Hope you like it here, and stick around.

Here are some tips to help you get started:

 * To sign your posts (on talk pages, for example) use the '~' symbol. To insert just your name, type ~~~ (3 tildes), or, to insert your name and timestamp, use ~~~~ (4 tildes).
 * Try the Tutorial, and feel free to experiment in the test area.
 * If you need help, post a question at the Help Desk
 * Follow the Simplified Ruleset
 * Eventually, you might want to read the Manual of Style and Policies and Guidelines.
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 * Explore, be bold in editing pages, and, most importantly, have fun!

Good luck!

Please do not add commercial links or links to your own private websites to Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a vehicle for advertising or a mere collection of external links. You are, however, encouraged to add content instead of links to the encyclopedia. If you feel the link should be added to the article, then please discuss it on the article's talk page rather than re-adding it. See the welcome page to learn more about Wikipedia. Thanks. --Guinnog 01:36, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

title: User talk:Eenspaaier


text:
Junior Vasquez

Junior Vasquez (born Donald Gregory Mattern, August 24, 1949 ) is an American DJ, record producer and remixer. He has been referred to as one of the only DJs of his time to gain international attention.

Career
Mattern moved to New York City as a young man of 25 in 1971 with ambitions of becoming a fashion designer, briefly attending Fashion Institute of Technology (FIT) and working for a while as a hairdresser. Mattern soon became fascinated with NYC nightlife, especially the work of DJ Larry Levan at the Paradise Garage. Despite his Italian and German ancestry, he adopted the pseudonym "Junior Vasquez" (inspired by the Latino neighborhoods he frequented) as a way to "reinvent" himself.

He began his career in music production in the 1980s. Vasquez worked with DJ and pop remixer/producer Shep Pettibone, and together they co-produced and edited numerous singles from artists like Madonna, Whitney Houston, Janet Jackson, MC Hammer, Prince, Pet Shop Boys and others. Vasquez landed a brief residency at Club Bassline, where he began to make a name for himself as a live DJ.

Many of Junior Vasquez's earliest underground hits were released under the name "Ellis D", including the house track, "Work This Pussy". Vasquez also released the tracks "Just Like a Queen", "My Lolleata", "It's Scratched", and "Took My Love Away".

From 1989 to 1995, Vasquez was the DJ at the original Sound Factory, a club he co-founded with Richard Grant, which was located at 530 W. 27th St in the Chelsea district. Major record labels began soliciting Vasquez to produce club-friendly remixes for their top singers using his personal beat-driven house style. Due to a rise in demand from these labels, many singer and musicians like C+C Music Factory, David Morales, Björk, Marilyn Manson, and Madonna were known to frequent his Sunday morning events. Working with many popular artists allowed Vasquez to create his own repertoire of exclusive "Private Collection" of authorized remixes (along with several unofficial remixes) which were not released to the market, and thus made his live sets even more distinctive to his following.

In 1994, Vasquez released his notably biggest single "Get Your Hands Off My Man". At this time he was also associated with The House of Xtravaganza, a ballroom "house" which enjoyed prominence in New York City at this time. In the early 1990s, Vasquez released his single "X", which sampled Danny Xtravaganza say the word "extravaganza!" (the voice sample was taken from Danny Xtravaganza's 1990 single "Love the Life You Live").

After the Sound Factory was closed in February 1995, Vasquez held residencies at the Tunnel (1995–1996), and at ArenA (held at the Palladium) (1996–1997) where his suspended booth was custom designed by designers Dolce & Gabbana. In 1997, he returned to the former site of the original Sound Factory, now called Twilo. Remodeled to include a custom-designed DJ booth for Vasquez's exclusive use and fitted with new cutting-edge audio technology known as "Phazon", Vasquez's residency at Twilo lasted until May 2001, when the venue was closed by order of the city. In 1997, Ian Jenkinson and Inner Rhythm Artists Tribal Gathering enlisted Vasquez for the largest single artist DJ event in UK history at the London Arena. Problems with the venue saw the event split between the two clubs: Ministry of Sound and Cream.

Vasquez held shorter-lived residencies at the various clubs in New York including, Exit Nightclub, the highest capacity club space in New York City where he called the Saturday to Sunday sets "Earth," Discothèque, Sound Factory (so-named by Richard Grant who retained legal rights to the name) and opened in a new space located in Hell's Kitchen section of Manhattan.

In addition to his work as a DJ and remixer, he has co-produced albums for John Mellencamp, For Real, Lisa Lisa, and Cyndi Lauper as well as individual LP tracks for Madonna, Cher, Wild Orchid, and Kristine W. Vasquez, along with his former record label Junior Vasquez Music, is also known for introducing new artists, including many crossover singers, to dance/pop music scene, including Vernessa Mitchell, Jason Walker, Casey Stratton, Quentin Elias, Vivian Green, and Sam Harris. In late October 2019, Vasquez partnered with his new business partner, Christopher Petrock to reignite the musical magic in the studio, on the dancefloor, licensing deals and in other new projects and ventures for 2020 and beyond. Finally on June 28, 2021, after nearly 40 years in the music business, Vasquez was inducted as a voting member into the Recording Academy(GRAMMYS).

Madonna controversy
Vasquez had a public falling-out with Madonna in 1996, after the release of an unauthorized single titled "If Madonna Calls". The original version that Vasquez plays at nightclubs contains what is widely believed to be an actual phone message from Madonna left on Vasquez's answering machine.

Selected singles

 * "Get Your Hands Off My Man" (1994)
 * "X" (1994)
 * "Lift Me Up" (1995)
 * "If Madonna Calls" (1996)

Selected remixes

 * Amanda Lear – "I Just Wanna Dance Again"
 * Angelique Kidjo featuring Peter Gabriel – "Salala"
 * Annie Lennox – "No More I Love You's/Take Me to the River/Downtown Lights (Medley)"
 * Beyoncé – "Krazy in Luv"
 * Billie Ray Martin – "Your Loving Arms"
 * Britney Spears – "Gimme More" (remixed by Junior Vasquez & Johnny Vicious)
 * Britney Spears – "Piece of Me" (remixed by Junior Vasquez & Johnny Vicious)
 * Britney Spears – "Womanizer"
 * Björk – "I Miss You" (Unreleased)
 * Bruce Roberts and Donna Summer – "Whenever There Is Love"
 * Casey Stratton – "House of Jupiter"
 * CeCe Peniston – "Hit By Love"
 * Charlotte – "Skin"
 * Cher – "Love and Understanding"
 * Cher – "One by One"
 * Christina Aguilera – "Ain't No Other Man"
 * Cyndi Lauper – "Come On Home"
 * Cyndi Lauper – "Hey Now (Girls Just Wanna Have Fun)"
 * David Bowie – "Little Wonder"
 * Destiny's Child – "Girl"
 * Donna Summer – "I'm a Rainbow"
 * Donna Summer – "Melody of Love (Wanna Be Loved)"
 * Donna Summer – "My Life"
 * Donna Summer – "Whenever There is Love" duet with Bruce Roberts
 * Duran Duran featuring Grandmaster Flash – "White Lines"
 * Elton John – "Made in England"
 * Funky Green Dogs – "Fired Up!"
 * Gloria Estefan – "Higher"
 * Irene Cara – "All My Heart"
 * Janet Jackson – "Runaway"
 * Janice Robinson & Sandy B – "The Real Me (It Gets Better)"
 * Joi Cardwell – "After the Rain"
 * John Mellencamp – "Key West Intermezzo"
 * Jonny McGovern – "Orange Juice"
 * Joyce Sims – "All & All"
 * Justin Timberlake – "Rock Your Body"
 * k.d. lang – "If I Were You"
 * Ké – "Strange World"
 * Kristine W – "Feel What You Want"
 * Kylie Minogue – "Too Far"
 * Lalo Schifrin – "Theme from Mission: Impossible" (Adam Clayton and Larry Mullen, Jr. version)
 * Lisa Lisa – "Acid Rain"
 * Lisa Lisa – "If This Is Real"
 * Lisa Stansfield – "All Around the World"
 * Livin' Joy – "Dreamer"
 * Madonna – "Bedtime Story"
 * Madonna – "Hollywood" (authorized release for a fashion show hosted by Donatella Versace)
 * Madonna – "Like a Prayer" (unreleased)
 * Madonna – "Rescue Me"
 * Madonna – "Secret"
 * Madonna – "I Want You" (unreleased)
 * Madonna – "You'll See" (unreleased)
 * Madonna – "Crazy For You" (unreleased)
 * Madonna – "Human Nature" (unreleased)
 * Mariah Carey – Bringin' On the Heartbreak
 * Mariah Carey – "Heartbreaker/If You Should Ever Be Lonely"
 * Maroon 5 – "This Love"
 * Mary J. Blige – "Your Child"
 * MC Hammer – "Pray" (remixed by Junior Vasquez & Shep Pettibone)
 * Michael Jackson – "Off The Wall" (eight remixes were made, but only one released)
 * Michael Jackson – "You Rock My World" (remixed, but never released)
 * Moby – "Into The Blue"
 * Nelly Furtado – "I'm Like a Bird"
 * Paula Abdul featuring Ofra Haza – "My Love Is for Real"
 * Peggy Wood – "Climb Ev'ry Mountain"
 * Pearl Jam – "Better Man"
 * Pet Shop Boys – "Yesterday, When I Was Mad"
 * Pink – "U + Ur Hand"
 * Pink – "Stupid Girls" (remixed by Dynamix & Junior Vasquez)
 * Prince – "Cream"
 * Prince – "Thieves in the Temple"
 * Queen – "Bicycle Race"
 * Rob Thomas – "Lonely No More"
 * Rickie Lee Jones – "Living It Up" (unreleased)
 * Sandy B – Nothingness
 * Seduction – "Feel Brand New"
 * Shannon – "Let The Music Play"
 * Siouxsie and the Banshees – "Fear (of the Unknown)"
 * Skunk Anansie – "Brazen (Weep)"
 * Sounds of Blackness – "Children of the World"
 * Spice Girls - "Wannabe"
 * Steve Silk Hurley & CeCe Peniston – "He Loves Me 2"
 * Tevin Campbell – "Strawberry Letter 23"
 * The B-52's – "(Meet) the Flintstones"
 * Toni Braxton – "Unbreak My Heart"
 * Vanessa L. Williams – "You Are Everything"
 * Vernessa Mitchell – "Reap (What You Sow)
 * Whitney Houston – "Greatest Love of All"
 * Whitney Houston – "How Will I Know"
 * Whitney Houston – "I Didn't Know My Own Strength"
 * Whitney Houston – "I Learned from the Best"
 * Whitney Houston – "I Wanna Dance with Somebody (Who Loves Me)"
 * Whitney Houston – "Million Dollar Bill"
 * Whitney Houston – "Step by Step"
 * Whitney Houston – "Fine"
 * Wild Orchid – "Talk to Me"
 * Zelma Davis – "Power"

Albums

 * To the Rhythm (1998)
 * J.M.O. After Service (2001)
 * Junior's Magic Orchestra (2003)

Mixes/compilations

 * The Future Sound of New York (1994)
 * This Is the Sound of Tribal (1994)
 * Best of Junior Vasquez: Just Like a Queen (1995)
 * 1997: Live, Vol. 1 / 2 (1997/1998)
 * Best of Junior Vasquez, Vol. 2 (1999)
 * Twilo, Vol. 1: Junior Vasquez (2000)
 * DJ19 Plays J.M.O. Perspective Service (2001)
 * Junior's Nervous Breakdown (2001)
 * Junior's Nervous Breakdown 2: Demented (2001)
 * Earth Music / Vol. 2 (2002)
 * Anthem / Vol. 2 (2003/2004)
 * Ageha, Vol. 4 (2004)
 * Party Groove: White Party, Vol. 7 (2006)
 * Generation Next (2009)

title: Junior Vasquez


text:
Star Trek: The Magazine

Star Trek: The Magazine was an authorized monthly tabloid-size periodical published in the United States and Canada by Fabbri Publishing (US) devoted to the Star Trek franchise. It ran for 48 issues, from May 1999 through April 2003, covering nearly 5,000 pages. There were three volumes, the first with 24 issues, and the latter two with 12 issues each.

The magazine was notable for its exclusive interviews with actors and production crew. Each issue also featured detailed technical briefings, many of which were lifted from the European Star Trek Fact Files. Advertisements in ST:TM were scarce.

A significant feature of later issues was the "Starfleet Technical Database", written by Rick Sternbach. The lengthy articles provided exclusive backstory and carry the same semi-canon weight as the technical manuals, which he also contributed to. Some of his material was reclaimed from an abandoned Star Trek: Voyager Technical Manual.

Contents
The issues listed below are intended as a general reference and are not exhaustive.

title: Star Trek: The Magazine


text:
Talk:Banjul

Untitled
there seem to be two contradictory statements in this short passage about "urban areas"

Box Bar Stadium
This redirect has now been pointed to the city of Banjul, as it was mentioned that the stadium was pointing to the wrong stadium ([[Stade Brikama]]) in the wrong city. If this is incorrect, please fix the redirect again or expand the article. -- nae'blis 15:55, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

The British didn't "found" this city
It was already there. Can we change this? Western scholarship cities such as Dakar, Banjul (Bathhurst), Abidjan, Conakry and others were assumed to be creations of western colonizers. However, though they were transformed in both negative and positive ways by colonization, these cities predate colonization as did many of the economic and institutional patters found in Africa.

See: The History of African Cities South of the Sahara by Catherine Coquery-Vidrovitch P. 329

futurebird (talk) 15:18, 17 November 2007 (UTC) dfgfgergffffwwsd —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.100.33.42 (talk) 05:26, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Banjul seen from SPOT satellite, 2x
There are two same picture comments: Banjul seen from SPOT satellite. Maybe the second one could be replaced with another description. Thank you in advance--Palapa (talk) 23:25, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:49, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Banjul International Airport.jpg

Arch 22
Do we really need two images of this landmark, even if one is with the statue, the other after the statue got removed?

title: Talk:Banjul


text:
Talk:Stationary-action principle

Hamilton's principle
Do we have a naming issue? We should be careful in how we refer to this article in the lead, as there is also an article called Hamilton's principle. ReyHahn (talk) 17:50, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

 * Of course there is!
 * I think we should merge these. Hamilton's principle is one form of least-action, so I think placing that content in this article as a section named Hamilton's principle with a redirect would make this article better and provide context for the topic of Hamilton's principle. Johnjbarton (talk) 01:21, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok now I understand the difference, based on Goldstein. These are different variational principles. Johnjbarton (talk) 04:23, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
 * What is the difference? Or how many "main" principles should we consider here?--ReyHahn (talk) 10:49, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Three differences: 1) the allowable variations vs fixed parameters, 2) the action itself as related to total energy, 3) the meaning of the result. Maupertuis principle has a section which attempts to explain it.
 * I believe there are three "main" principles: Maupertuis' principle of least action, Hamilton's principle, and the quantum least action. The quantum one may be formally the same as one of the other two but should carry as much space because the interpretation is so different.
 * My new proposal is a page named "Action principles" to sort this. I'll start a draft then let you know. Johnjbarton (talk) 15:50, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Proposal to move this article to Principle of least action.
Please see: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Physics Johnjbarton (talk) 01:16, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

 * I will propose a different plan in the Official way. Johnjbarton (talk) 16:57, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

δ must be explained.
δ is mentioned as something simple and obvious. However, it is a very complex issue that must be elucidated using mathematical expressions and possibly examples. Voproshatel (talk) 11:38, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

merged
Johnjbarton (talk) 18:11, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Stationary-action principle


text:
Karl Koecher

Karl František Koecher (born 21 September 1934 in Bratislava) is a Czech mole known to have penetrated the CIA during the Cold War.

Early life
Born in Bratislava, Czechoslovakia, his father was a Viennese-born Czech and his mother Irena, a Slovak Jew. As the son of an Anglophile, Koecher gained his language skills from an early age attending an English grammar school and later French lyceum before the war. Prior to his entry to university, his anti-state activities in his teen years attracted the attention of the Czechoslovakia State Security after the Communists took over in Czechoslovakia in 1948.

As remembered by some of his classmates, from early age he showed strong analytical capabilities, high intelligence and individualistic nature. Due to his unlikeable character, in later years, his former classmates would not invite him on annual class meetings. He studied physics and mathematics at Charles University as well as film at the Academy of Performing Arts.

After university he tried a few jobs including a teacher, a reporter for state television, and a radio comedy writer. He became a radio comedy writer and was allegedly frequently scrutinized by the Communist security forces for his satire that mocked the regime (this turned out to be a pre-planned "cover story"). He joined the Communist Party in 1960, and the Czechoslovak intelligence service in 1962 using the codename Pedro.

Czechoslovakia State Security (StB) career
Koecher claimed that constant harassment from the Czechoslovakia State Security (StB) due to his history of anti-state and anti-social behavior, ruined his different careers and in order to end the harassment, he decided to join the StB. With the help of a friend within the StB and his language skills, he was recruited into the intelligence service.

Koecher's first two years were devoted to training and counter-intelligence work against West Germans in Prague.

Koecher was selected to become a mole in the West working with the first directorate in the Stb because of his English language skills.

In 1965 he and his wife, Hana Koecher (the daughter of a Communist Party official), seemingly emigrated to the United States via Austria posing as defecting dissidents.
 * Immigration to the United States

His language skills and status as a defector aided Koecher in gaining employment at Radio Free Europe and a year long fellowship at Indiana University.

He returned to New York in 1967 and he gained a doctorate in philosophy from Columbia University, and became an American citizen in 1971.

With the purge of his superiors at the StB during the aftermath of the 1968 Soviet Union led invasion of Czechoslovakia, he found himself out of touch with the service and approached the FBI instead in an attempt to defect and use his knowledge against the Soviets but they were not interested.
 * CIA work

His supply of information to the StB dwindled from 1969 until 1971, but he continued to integrate himself in American society.

Taking a CIA prescreening employment exam in November 1972, he passed and was employed. After several years as a sleeper he was hired by the CIA as a translator/analyst in 1973 due to his fake dissident credentials and skills in a number of Eastern European languages. He was given high level security clearance and given the job of translating and analyzing documents handed over by CIA agents and transcripts of wiretaps and bugs.

He quickly became one of the USSR's best sources of information, allowing them to mount an effective defense against CIA covert actions. He translated documents from a key CIA asset in Moscow, Ogorodnik. According to Martha D. Peterson, a retired CIA officer, Koecher is believed to have betrayed Aleksandr Dmitrievich Ogorodnik, a Soviet diplomat who spied for the CIA.

In September 1976, however, Koecher was summoned back to Prague to a meeting with KGB head of counter-intelligence, Oleg Kalugin. Kalugin claims that after interrogating Koecher, Kalugin argued that he was in fact a triple agent and his information could not be trusted. According to Koecher, the StB then ordered Koecher to resign from the CIA or face death.
 * KGB death threat and CIA retirement

After seven days of interrogation, Koecher returned to New York and retired, leaving the CIA for a post in academia teaching philosophy.

By 1982, Koecher was rehabilitated by the KGB after Kalugin was demoted from chief of foreign counterintelligence and Koecher's past intelligence had been reassessed. In the 1980s, Koecher was one of a number of agents reactivated, when he was approached by the StB intelligence officer Jan Fila, operating out of the UN, in New York. He returned to work part-time for the CIA. Although the FBI asserts that they had been monitoring and surveilling Koecher and his wife from the early 1980s, it was at least three years before he was arrested.
 * Reactivation

To this day, neither the FBI nor the CIA will reveal what alerted them to Koecher's treachery. Koecher and other KGB officials claim it was Kalugin. Another suggestion by a CIA historian, is that it was the StB intelligence officer, Jan Fila, who betrayed him with the latter disappearing in December 1989, a month after the Czechoslovakian Velvet Revolution.

Apprehension
The FBI apprehended Koecher on 27 November 1984, outside New York City's Barbizon Plaza Hotel, and brought him and, soon afterwards, his wife Hana in for several days of questioning. Finally, Koecher agreed to become a triple agent working for the Americans, provided that they agreed to grant him immunity from prosecution. This was done and Koecher attempted to convince the FBI that he was cooperating.

However, it was then decided that Koecher was not reliable enough to be a triple agent and was likely to defect and return to Czechoslovakia. On November 27, 1984, the day after the couple sold their apartment and hours before they were scheduled to fly to Switzerland, Koecher and his wife were arrested in New York City. Koecher was held on espionage charges and Hana Koecher as a material witness. The arrest of the two agents was released to the media. U.S. Attorney Rudolph Giuliani led the case. The case on his wife, Hana, a purported diamond merchant but actually a courier for the StB from 1974 to 1983, had been bungled and would not result in a conviction, so the prosecutors allowed her to gain immunity in return for information against her husband Karl Koecher.

It soon emerged that the FBI had badly blundered. Koecher's confession was given only after his interrogators promised him immunity as a ruse, and was thus invalid. His wife had been denied access to a lawyer despite frequent requests for one, which reportedly caused Justice Department officials to refuse to charge her. She refused to testify against Karl, asserting spousal privilege, though prosecutors argued this did not apply given the two had been partners in crime. With little concrete evidence, it appeared that Koecher had a good chance of being acquitted. The issue of whether or not Hana Koecher could be compelled to testify against her husband went before the US Supreme Court but the fact that both spouses were returned to Czechoslovakia in a prisoner exchange before the court's opinion was published rendered the case moot. According to Koecher, Rudy Giuliani, as a prosecutor for the Southern District of New York, had bungled the case and was unable to gain enough evidence to convict Koecher after Koecher's arrest and instead offered immunity to Koecher in exchange for more information.

Koecher was the victim of an attempted stabbing by an unnamed inmate while in prison. The inmate supposedly lunged at Koecher with a pair of scissors in an attack Koecher said was foiled by a Hells Angels member, Sandy Alexander. Koecher claims the inmate was moved to another prison, and could not be located years later, which he says is proof of an attempt by US intelligence agencies to assassinate him.

Koecher, worrying about his own safety, sent through his lawyer and his spouse's father, a request to the KGB chairman that he be part of a prisoner exchange with the Soviets. KGB chairman Kryuchkov agreed, and so did the prosecutor's office, concerned about the embarrassing chance of an acquittal. Koecher pleaded guilty on charges of conspiracy to commit espionage for Czechoslovakia, and was sentenced to life in prison, which was reduced to time served provided he left the US and never returned. On February 11, 1986, Koecher and his wife were part of a nine-person exchange at Glienicke Bridge in Berlin, of which the most prominent member was noted dissident Anatoly Shcharansky.

Return
Koecher returned to Czechoslovakia to a hero's welcome and was given a house and a Volvo car as a reward for his services. He was also given a job at the Prague Institute for Economic Forecasting, where many future politicians worked; Václav Klaus and Miloš Zeman the future Czech presidents were among them. Some U.S. journalists stated they had seen Koecher issuing orders at the Laterna Magika theatre during the early days of the Velvet Revolution (1989). Koecher denied any involvement in the Velvet Revolution, saying that journalists must have mixed him up with the then unknown Václav Klaus, who had a similar appearance.

The fall of communism has seen Koecher fall from prominence, with the exception of his alleged involvement in a scheme run by Oswald LeWinter, a self-professed former CIA operative, to defraud Mohammed Al-Fayed with false documents that would support his conspiracy theories about the death of Princess Diana. He continues to live in the Czech Republic in relative obscurity. His wife, Hana Koecher, made the headlines in the Czech Republic, when she was fired from her new job as a translator for the British Embassy in Prague. The British were completely unaware of her espionage past until a Czech newspaper reporter notified them. A suit she filed against a media organisation for revealing her past as a spy, damaging her business, was rejected.

An episode of the 2004 Canadian documentary series Betrayal! covered the Koecher case.

title: Karl Koecher