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User talk:Kctipton

Welcome to Wikipedia! Good to see another ODP editor here! :)

If you have any questions, feel free to ask. Ambivalenthysteria 04:07, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Please tread carefully on Open Directory Project. It took a major edit war and mediation lasting several months to get it to that stage. I suspect to make any further changes you'll need another mediator, as I'm afraid Netesq will revert anything you add until then. Ambivalenthysteria 04:17, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

So Netesq won't allow any new information to be added? I put in information that wasn't there before, and he killed it off. I know a lot of things he does NOT know, him being an ex-editor for a very long time.

Editing_policy is clear: "Whatever you do, try to preserve information." There's more that I won't quote but hope others will read.

Netesq, you paying attention? You're out of touch AND can't follow the general policy of preserving information.

kctipton 14:26, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Just thought I'd say hello - I've had an account here for a long time but I've only recently started using it! (As if I needed something to take me away from ODP editing...) Anyway, good to see a familiar face/name.
 * -Etoile 05:23, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Open Directory Project
You've re-inserted the POV tag in Open Directory Project without giving a explanatation on the talk page. I'd suggest you explicitely state your concerns on the talk page. In your edit summary you stated, that the POV isn't easily seen, so it's even more necessary to point it out. The somewhat ironic point about the POV tag at ODP, is that I and others are unable to see whether it's there because the article is overly critical or overly positive. And indeed I feel, that editors insists on the tag for both reasons (I.e. you, because you think it's too critical, and Netesq because he judges it too positive). --Pjacobi 07:31, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

 * Netesq was fired as editor in 2000. He's so not an editor.  He can't abide _any_ neutral or positive statements on the ODP article.  I don't want a glowing article since it hasn't been earned, but a factual, allegation-free, article is better than what's been presented in the past.--kctipton 15:22, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Greetings, Keith. I haven't touched the ODP article since May of 2005, and I have no intention of editing it at anytime in the future.  Good luck with your quality control efforts here at Wikipedia. // NetEsq 21:50, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Notification: changes to "Mark my edits as minor by default" preference
Hello there. This is an automated message to tell you about the gradual phasing out of the preference entitled "Mark all edits minor by default", which you currently have enabled.

On 13 March 2011, this preference was hidden from the user preferences screen as part of efforts to prevent its accidental misuse (consensus discussion). This had the effect of locking users in to their existing preference, which, in your case, was. To complete the process, your preference will automatically be changed to  in the next few days. This does not require any intervention on your part and you will still be able to manually mark your edits as being 'minor'. The only thing that's changed is that you will no longer be able to have them marked as minor by default. For more information on what a minor edit is, see WP:MINOR or feel to get in touch.

Thank you for your understanding and happy editing :) Editing on behalf of User:Jarry1250, LivingBot (talk) 20:45, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

title: User talk:Kctipton


text:
Category:Catch-22

This category consists of articles related to Joseph Heller's novel Catch-22. __NOGALLERY__

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Category:Catch-22


text:
Tony Jaa

Tatchakorn Yeerum (ทัชชกร ยีรัมย์,, ; formerly Phanom Yeerum (พนม ยีรัมย์, )), better known internationally as Tony Jaa and in Thailand as Jaa Phanom (จา พนม, , ), is a Thai martial artist, actor, action choreographer, stuntman, director, and traceur. Prior to becoming a leading actor, Jaa worked as a stuntman for Muay Thai Stunt for 14 years, appearing in many of his mentor Panna Rittikrai's films. His martial arts films are credited with helping to showcase the Thai combat systems of Muay Thai, Muay Boran, and "Muay Kotchasaan" (a fighting style Jaa and Rittikrai developed in 2005). His Thai films include Ong-Bak: Muay Thai Warrior (2003), which earned him a Star Entertainment Award, Tom-Yum-Goong (2005), which earned him a Suphannahong National Film Award, Ong Bak 2: The Beginning (2008), Ong Bak 3 (2010), and Tom Yum Goong 2 (2013).

After leaving the Thai movie company Sahamongkol Film International in 2013, Jaa signed with Universal Studios, and focused more on an international fan base. Since then, Jaa has appeared in films such as Furious 7 (2015), SPL II: A Time for Consequences (2015), Master Z: Ip Man Legacy (2018), and Expend4bles (2023).

Early life
Tony Jaa was born and raised in a rural area in Surin Province to Rin Saipetch and Thongdee Yeerum. In his youth, he watched films by Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan at temple fairs, which inspired him to learn martial arts. He practiced the techniques in his father's rice paddy. "What they [Lee and Chan] did was so beautiful, so heroic that I wanted to do it too," Jaa told Time in a 2004 interview. "I practiced until I could do the move exactly as I had seen the masters do it." Jaa was also inspired by Jet Li.

Tony Jaa began training in Muay Thai at his local temple at age 10. By 15, he was a protégé of stuntman and action film director Panna Rittikrai. Panna had instructed Jaa to attend Maha Sarakham College of Physical Education in Maha Sarakham Province from which he graduated with a bachelor's degree. His early martial arts experience included Taekwondo, Muay Thai, Muay Boran, and Krabi-Krabong, with an emphasis on gymnastics and acrobatics. His films have showcased various other martial arts styles, such as Kung-fu, Silat, and Jiu-Jitsu.

Stunt work
Tony Jaa initially worked as a stuntman for Muay Thai Stunt for 14 years, appearing in many of Rittikrai's films. He doubled for Sammo Hung when the martial-arts movie actor made a commercial for an energy drink that required him to grasp an elephant's tusks and somersault onto the elephant's back. He was also a stunt double in the Thai television series Insee Daeng (Red Eagle).

2003–2008
Together, Panna and Jaa developed an interest in Muay Boran, the predecessor of muay thai and worked and trained for four years at the art with the intention of developing a film about it. Eventually they were able to put together a short film showing what Jaa could do with the help of instructor Grandmaster Mark Harris. One of the people they showed it to was producer-director Prachya Pinkaew.

This led to Ong-Bak: Muay Thai Warrior in 2003, Jaa's break-out role as a leading man. Jaa did all the stunts without mechanical assistance or computer-generated effects and it showcased his style of extreme acrobatics and speedy, dance-like moves. Injuries suffered in the filming included a ligament injury and a sprained ankle. One scene in the film involved fighting with another actor while his own trousers were on fire. "I actually got burned," he said in a 2005 interview. "I really had to concentrate because once my pants were on fire the flames spread upwards very fast and burnt my eyebrows, my eyelashes and my nose. Then we had to do a couple more takes to get it right."

His second major movie was Tom-Yum-Goong (The Protector in the US), named after tom yum soup, which included a style of Muay Thai that imitates elephants.

In August 2006, he was in New York to promote the US release of The Protector, including an appearance at the Museum of the Moving Image.

Sahamongkol Film International advertised that Tony Jaa's third film would be called Sword or Daab Atamas, about the art of Thai two-sword fighting (daab song mue), with a script by Prapas Chonsalanont. But due to a falling out between Prachya and Jaa, which neither has publicly commented on, Sword was cancelled.

In March 2006, it was reported that there would be a sequel to Ong Bak and Ong Bak 2. Directed by and starring Jaa, it was released in December 2008.

Jaa's films captured the attention of his hero, Jackie Chan, who asked director Brett Ratner to cast Jaa in Rush Hour 3. "I gave the director videos of Jaa because I think he is the most well-rounded of all action stars," Chan told the Associated Press. "The director liked him a lot," Chan said. However, Jaa mentioned that he is unable to participate in the film because of scheduling conflicts with Ong Bak 2.

While Jaa and Amogelang were working on Ong Bak 2, director Prachya Pinkaew and action ya choreographer Panna Rittikrai were working on Chocolate, starring a female martial artist, Nicharee Vismistananda and released 6 February 2008. Jaa had been cast in a small role in a third installment of the King Naresuan film series directed by Chatrichalerm Yukol, although the film was ultimately cancelled. Ong Bak 3 was released in 2010 and provides a conclusion to this franchise trilogy.

2010–present
Tony Jaa and Panna Rittikrai co-directed Ong Bak 3.

On 28 May 2010, Jaa became a Buddhist monk at a Buddhist temple in Surin, Thailand.

After leaving the monastery, Jaa accepted a deal with Sahamongkol film company. He filmed Tom Yum Goong 2 for them, with Chocolate star Jija Yanin in a major role too, the first time Jaa has shared the big screen with another international martial arts star. Director Prachya Pinkaew and choreographer Panna Rittikrai also returned for this film.

In 2013, Jaa teamed up with Dolph Lundgren in the Thai western-comedy A Man Will Rise (which remains unfinished) and in 2014 in Lundgren's pet project Skin Trade. Jaa then co-starred in the blockbuster action film Furious 7, produced by and starring Vin Diesel and directed by James Wan. Jaa also teamed up with fellow actors Louis Koo and Wu Jing in Hong Kong-Chinese action film SPL II: A Time for Consequences.

Jaa was briefly attached to the remake of Kickboxer: Vengeance. However, in November 2014, it was announced that he had exited the project. Jaa's most recent project was co-starring with Diesel again in XXX: Return of Xander Cage, directed by D. J. Caruso and released in January 2017.

In October 2016, Jaa co-starred with Koo again in Paradox, the third installment of the SPL series.

Personal life
Jaa married his longtime girlfriend Piyarat Chotiwattananont on 3 May 2012. The couple have two daughters.

title: Tony Jaa


text:
Metropolitan Building (Minneapolis)

The Metropolitan Building, originally known as the Northwestern Guaranty Loan Building, is considered to be one of the most architecturally significant structures in the history of Minneapolis, Minnesota. It stood from 1890 until it was torn down starting in 1961 as part of major urban renewal efforts in the city that saw about 40% of the downtown district razed and replaced with new structures. At the time, the pending destruction of the Richardsonian Romanesque building provided a catalyst for historic preservation movements in the city and across the state.

Early skyscraper
The building is considered the city's first skyscraper, with 12 stories and standing 218 ft tall. Small observation towers poked up above the corners, and the rooftop had a popular garden. It was built of green New Hampshire granite and red Lake Superior sandstone, with the interiors dressed in antique oak and beautiful ornamental iron and brass work by Crown Iron Works Company of Minneapolis. A large skylight allowed the interior to be safely lit in a time when electric lighting was rare (though the building was eventually wired), and the floors of walkways circling the center court were translucent to allow more light to filter through. Architect E. Townsend Mix designed the building, and it is considered to be his most notable achievement. Many of the city's most prestigious companies had offices in the Metropolitan.

When it went up, the building was owned by the Northwestern Guaranty Loan Company. Louis F. Menage, founder, had gained a fortune while speculating on real estate in the Minneapolis area in the 1880s. He spent $1 million on the project. Many hailed the building when it was first completed, although some such as Cass Gilbert did not like the style.

Downfall
The Panic of 1893 caused Menage's company to collapse, and he fled the country. Thomas Lowry, another major real estate speculator and the owner of the area's streetcar network, purchased the building but only held onto it for a little more than a decade before selling it to the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company in 1905. This is where the building gained its "Metropolitan" name, even though it changed hands a few more times before succumbing to the wrecking ball.

There was little practical reason to tear down the building. Records from the day indicate that it was safe and almost fully occupied at the time it was condemned. The structure came down because it was in the wrong neighborhood—on the edge of the so-called Gateway District, sitting on the southwest corner of Third Street South and Second Avenue South.

Present day
Some giant marble stones from the building were found in an old warehouse in Delano, Minnesota in May 2010, and the owner of the building set off a frenzy when he emailed a small group of architects and historical preservationists in Minnesota who now are trying to find money and a way to save the stones.

The Ice House Plaza, which opened in May 2012, includes several blocks of stone salvaged from the Metropolitan Building. The plaza was designed and sculpted by sculptor Zoran Mojsilov, whose piece white angel is the focal point of the plaza. Located at 26th Street and Nicollet Avenue in South Minneapolis, the public square has a fountain and benches made from remnants of the historic structure.

title: Metropolitan Building (Minneapolis)


text:
Talk:Murray cod

Article Title
Please note that where a species of animal has a reasonably widely accepted common name, the agreed rule is that we use that as the title of the article. the Murray Cod certainly has such a name, so I have reverted the article to that name (also putting it in Initial Caps style while I was at it). seglea 04:11, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Disappearing Reference
Why did the reference Rowland (1989) disappear??? Codman 01:52, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Don't worry about it. It's still there.  Codman 01:53, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Image
The image in the taxobox of this article is very poor, see comments on Image talk:Murray Cod.png - Nick Thorne 11:17, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

pov-check
I've tagged this article to garner opinions on the writing style. I find much of it has an overly zealous tone which detracts from an otherwise comprehensive and detailed article. Garglebutt / (talk) 04:56, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The article seems well written to me. What you seem to be regarding as "over zealousness" can alternatively be described as an accurate depiction of the plight of an animal that is under significant threat from a number of stressors, which are listed.  What, exactly, are you objecting to?Nick Thorne 21:27, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Completely unwarranted nomination. If fisheries departments and their regulations are not conserving wild Murray cod populations adequately, and there is hard scientific evidence to support this, then it is perfectly reasonable to state this.  Codman 01:51, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

taste and cooking?
It's a really well done article. For those of us from NA, like to know a bit more about what it tastes like? Like a cod? Like a trout?

Ź==Good Article nomination on hold== This article's Good Article promotion has been put on hold. During review, some issues were discovered that can be resolved without a major re-write. This is how the article, as of August 1, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:

 * 1. Well written?: [[Image:Symbol wait.svg|15px]] some fixes needed:

Lead: Description: Related Species: Taxonomy: Range: Size: Reproduction Conservation: In Aquariums:
 * The lead should be a "concise overview of the article" (see WP:LS); as of now it is not.
 * The origin of the scientific name of Murray cod should not be mentioned only in the intro; it should also be mentioned under Taxonomy.
 * Murray cod are a large grouper-like fish with a deep, elongated body that is round in cross section: change to "Murray cod are large grouper-like fish with deep, elongated bodies that are round in cross section."
 * Wikilink grouper, dorsal fin
 * while trout cod stray (or did stray)- meaning that they no longer do?
 * Originally only one species of cod was recognised — Murray cod — then named Maccullochella macquariensis. - Change to "Originally only one species of cod was recognised, the Murray cod, whic was then named Maccullochella macquariensis."
 * ~700m elevation in the southern half of the basin and to ~1000m in the northern half of the basin - get rid of the "~" signs and use "about" or "approximately" instead.
 * Murray cod played a very important role in the mythology of many Aboriginal tribes- why is this in the range section? Can be placed in a "relationship with humans" section near "Conservation".
 * Murray cod played- past tense? it no longer plays a role in their mythology? If so, why not?
 * All the pieces become all the other fish species of the river- change to "The pieces become all the other fish species of the river"
 * In these myths the fleeing Murray cod and the beating of its tail enlarges the river and creates the bends in it.  change to "In these myths, the fleeing Murray cod, and the beating of its tail, enlarges the river and creates the bends in it. "
 * add nonbreaking spaces between each number and its unit.
 * units need imperial conversions in parentheses
 * metric units should be spelled out (cm to centimetres)
 * Entire section can be integrated into "Description" section.
 * Murray cod are large fish with adult fish...- change to "Murray cod are large fish, with adult fish...."
 * Large breeding fish are rare in most wild populations today due to...- change to "Large breeding fish are rare in most wild populations today, due to...."
 * and the even larger specimens of yester-year leave us in no doubt change yester-year to another more encyclopedic word, and don't use the word "us". Could perhaps be written something like "And even larger specimens caught in years past show that the species reaches ages of 70 or more years
 * anything smaller than itself including finned fish to "anything smaller than itself, including finned fish"
 * a demersal ambush predator either wikilink or explain what the term means.
 * Therefore roughly 70% comma after "therefore"
 * will have egg counts of around <10,000 get rid of the "<" symbol, or spell it out.
 * Egg counts in female Murray cod of all sizes are relatively low compared to many fish species. merge into the paragraph before it, no 1 sentence paragraphs.
 * photoperiod (daylight length). add a piped link to Photoperiodism.
 * Initially spring floods and temperatures of 20–21° C were considered necessary... by who?
 * Murray cod are main channel specialists meaning what?
 * until recently spring flooding has been considered critical for successful recruitment- second time the article mentions this.
 * until recently spring flooding has been considered change "has been" to "was"
 * macroinverebrates change to "macroinvertebrates"
 * This information also suggests that:...than first thought. get rid of the bullets, just use commas.
 * Merge the last two paragraphs in the section.
 * get rid of the bulleting, use paragraphs instead.
 * Weirs killing Murray cod larvae and juveniles- what are Weirs?
 * the most important issues effecting  change "effecting" to "affecting"
 * of cod populations such as the need for spring floods and excessive angler take are yet to be addressed. commas after "population" and "take".
 * Change "Whilst" to "While"
 * A temperature of 24° C however comma after 24° C.
 * enable fast (optimum) growth, if a large size is undesireable, why would it be "optimum" growth? Do you mean maximum growth rate?
 * ...keeps most pathogens ("diseases") at bay just say "pathogens" and wikilink it.
 * to white-spot or "ich" and fungal skin infections do you mean "itch"? if it's a colloquialism, just say "white-spot and fungal skin infections". and wikilink "fungal infection" (Mycosis).

 * 2. Factually accurate?: [[Image:Symbol wait.svg|15px]]

Range: the naming of the cod after the river needs to be referenced, as does the fact that the Murray-Darling Basin is Australia's largest and most important river system, the 13% statistic, and the fact that it is in Aboriginal mythology.
 * Description and coloration need to be sourced
 * Colouration is related to water clarity- needs to be sourced
 * being such adaptable, versatile and successful fish- needs a source
 * Related Species needs be sourced
 * Taxonomy needs to be sourced
 * Size needs to be referenced.
 * Large breeding fish are rare in most wild populations today due to excessive angler take and inadequate fishing regulations. needs a reference
 * Age: needs a reference for Australian fish being long-lived, Murray cod being the longest lived in Australia, longevity as a survival strategy, and spawning being linked to La Niña years.
 * A recent study has confirmed that fish make up the majority of the diet of Murray cod in lowland river and impoundment habitats, and that Murray cod are indeed apex predators in these habitats. remove the "recent study" part, instead incorporate it into into the sentence before and use the study as your source.
 * The observations of the many recreational fishermen now fishing for Murray cod with surface lures at night reveal- cite. And "many" is a relative term; if you want to use many, you have to say how many and give a source.
 * Overall, this data strongly indicates that the 50 cm size limit for Murray cod is inadequate and should be increased substantially to allow greater chance of reproduction before capture. Source it, or it's original research.
 * "in their prime"- source
 * Egg counts in female Murray cod of all sizes are relatively low compared to many fish species. reference it.
 * Decades of observations by recreational and commercial fishermen suggest such spring spawning migrations are common across the Murray cod's geographical range.- Reference
 * During this dispersal process .... microinvertebrates.- reference.
 * These findings do not deliver river regulation and water extraction....other native fish. Source
 * It is estimated somewhere in the vicinity of 80% of the...- source.
 * In "Conservation", each of the paragraphs/bulleted facts needs a source.
 * There are now grave concerns for the long term survival of wild Murray cod populations.-source
 * Murray cod are intelligent fish and make immensively attractive, rewarding and responsive aquarium fish. definitely need a source. Oh, and change "immensively" to "immensely".
 * "In Aquariums", each paragraph and any numbers or statistics need to be sourced.
 * 3. Broad in coverage?: [[Image:Symbol support vote.svg|15px]] Yes.
 * 4. Neutral point of view?: [[Image:Symbol wait.svg|15px]]

 * striking and extremely beautiful colouration calling a fish "beautiful" is a value judgement and thus not neutral point of view.
 * Nevertheless, the basic pattern of speciation into a primarily lowland species and a specialist upland species is clear.- clear to who? it's a value judgment.
 * These findings do not deliver river regulation and water extraction from blame however — river regulation has been a major factor in the decline of Murray cod and other native fish. "from blame" is an accusatory tone, and does not show npov.
 * spawning period, during which anglers are not allowed to target Murray cod, even on a catch and release basis. is the bold text there for any particular reason?
 * ..but the most important issues... most important according to who? cite an expert, or change the wording.
 * It is widely agreed by everyone who has kept a Murray cod in an aquarium that they are fish with "real personalities". "Widely agreed" is a weasel word. "real personalities" is a matter of opinion.
 * 5. Article stability? [[Image:Symbol support vote.svg|15px]] Yes.
 * 6. Images?: [[Image:Symbol support vote.svg|15px]]

Please address these matters soon and then leave a note here showing how they have been resolved. After 48 hours the article should be reviewed again. If these issues are not addressed within 7 days, the article may be failed without further notice.

 * I have edited the document extensively taking your comments as a guide. Please feel free to suggest any more changes that you think are appropriate or if I have misinterpreted your advice.  Thanks for reviewing the article.   Nick Thorne  talk  05:09, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I think I have picked up all the typos I introduced in my first 6 hour editing session, please let me know if I have missed anything. As I said ealier I appreciate the effort put in to review this page, so I am trying to do justice to your work and to the article.  Nick Thorne  talk  10:20, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Follow-up

 * Thank you for your work so far. I can see that you've put a lot of work into the article. A some more fixes:

Wikilinking: Prose/Grammar:
 * All locations should be linked the first time they appear in a section.
 * Siltation, overfishing, weirs, and arsenic should be linked in "Range", and Substrates should be linked to Substrate (marine biology). ✅
 * Apex predator should be linked in "Diet", and the redlink on Boney bream should be removed.
 * In "Reproduction", Macroinvertebrates should be wikilinked to Invertebrate, and Thermal pollution should be wikilinked. ✅
 * In "Conservation", wikilink the Murray-Darling Basin and Murray river at the beginning of the section, since it's a new section. Also link irrigation, tributaries, ecosystems, overfishing, thermal pollution, siltation, riparian, fauna, biomass, remove the link on year classes.✅
 * In Aquariums, link quarantine, sea salt, iodine, pH, and alkaline.✅
 * intro:

 * "..in the spring generally being laid in hollow logs..." change to "..in the spring and generally laid in hollow logs..."✅
 * Description:

 * in the sentence "In Murray cod the jaws are equal or the lower jaw protrudes slightly", I think it would sound better if written "The jaws of the Murray cod are equal, or the lower jaw protrudes slightly.", and the same for "In Murray cod the spiny dorsal fin...". Just a personal preference, though.✅
 * Size:

 * write measurements with the metric unit spelled out and the imperial unit abbreviated. For example, instead of "reaching 80–100 cm (32–39")", "reaching 80–100 centimetres (32–39 in)". This applies to the rest of the article as well. "Large breeding fish are rare in most wild populations today."- remove the word "today", it's already clear that you're talking about the present-day.✅
 * Related Species:

 * change "species, with Murray cod being the primarily lowland species and the endangered trout cod being the specialist upland species." to "species; Murray cod are the primarily lowland species and the endangered trout cod are the specialist upland species." ✅
 * In "because, being such adaptable, versatile and successful fish", remove versatile, as it's a synonym for adaptable, ad remove "such", as it's unnecessary.✅
 * In the sentence "in southern Queensland but are now extinct", add a comma after Queensland. Oh, and wikilink "Queensland".✅
 * no wiki link on Queensland required here, because there is one in the previous sentence. Nick Thorne talk  13:40, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Taxonomy:

 * in the sentence "with the surname McCulloch and for the" add a comma after "McCulloch".
 * Adding a comma before and IIRC is not correct English grammar. Nick Thorne  talk  13:40, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Spell out NSW, since readers outside Australia might not know what it stands for. (and wikilink it.)✅
 * In the sentence "Subsequently two further cod...", add a comma after "Subsequently".✅
 * In "with the later causing Murray cod...", I think "later" should be "latter"? ✅
 * In the same sentence, there is a parenthese at the end, but no parenthese at the beginning. In the final sentence, add a comma after "eastern freshwater cod".✅
 * Range:

 * in "but extending well into upland areas; to about", change the semicolon to a dash. ✅
 * In the sentence "Unfortunately, Murray cod have died out of many of their upland habitats, particularly in the southern Murray-Darling Basin", you don't have to point out that it is unfortunate, and doing so is against neutrality policy.✅
 * Age:

 * "Murray cod continue the trend of native fish of southeast Australia being incredibly long-lived" change to "Murray cod are incredibly long-lived, which is characteristic of native fish of southeast Australia." or something along those lines.✅
 * Diet:

 * Change "during the day, Murray cod at night are active..." to "during the day, at night Murray cod are active..."✅
 * Reproduction:

 * "between 4 and 6 years of age."- spell out numbers under ten. ✅
 * in the sentence "with their faster growth rates, do not reach sexual maturity until well over 60 cm in length", either add "they are" after "until" or remove "their" after "with". ✅
 * In the sentence "because they produce the most eggs and for other reasons;>" add a comma after "eggs" and delete the ">" after the semicolon.
 * I'm still not prepared to put commas before and. Can't find the ">", I think codman may have fixed this  Nick Thorne  talk  13:40, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

 * "Spawning is initiated by pairing up and courtship rituals"- "pairing up" sounds unencyclopedic.
 * I believe "pairing up" is the term usually used by fish biologists, I would prefer to let it stand Nick Thorne talk  13:40, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

 * In "The male remains to guard the eggs during incubation, which takes 6–10 days", change "6–10 days" to "six to ten days". ✅
 * Change "behaviour for aound 4–7 days." to "behaviour for around four to seven days." In the last paragraph, unitalicise "can".✅
 * Conservation:

 * "and other Murray-Darling native fish was, not surprisingly,...."- remove "not surprisingly", if it's not surprising, it shouldn't have to be pointed out.
 * Changed not surprisingly to of course, removed commas. Point needs to be made because often people forget that adaption to natural conditions in the norm. Nick Thorne  talk  13:40, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * "Of course" is a word mentioned specifically in Words to avoid. The sentence "The breeding of Murray cod and other Murray-Darling native fish was adapted to these natural flow patterns." informs the reader of the same facts, without going against wikipedia policy. --Jude. 18:28, 30 September 2007 (UTC)✅

 * The section would flow better if the bolded first lines were removed, and the section was formatted into regular paragraphs like the rest of the article. It could perhaps be organized with "Reductions in flood duration,River regulation for irrigation, and Excessive water extraction" in one paragraph talking about the impact regulation of water flow has had on the fish, "De-snagging, Overfishing,Thermal pollution,Barriers to migration, Weirs killing Murray cod larvae and juveniles, Siltation, Removal of riparian vegetation" in a paragraph about other manmade changes to the environment, and "introduced carp and introduced disease" in a paragraph about the negative impact of introduced species.
 * I get a lot of questions from school children and so on about the causes of the demise of Murray cod and other native fish. I think that the current structure, although I agree that it does not "flow" as such, it better allows readers to quickly identify the main causative factors and then read those that interest them.  I would prefer to leave the current structure of this section as it is. Nick Thorne  talk  13:40, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The one sentence-paragraphs, of which are are five, are a problem, as is the bolding of the first line. If your intent is to allow people to quickly identify the main causative factors, then a possibility would be to group the causes into subsections by related topics, so that readers could identify the general causes not only by looking at the section, but also in the table of contents. Cheers, Jude. 18:46, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, I will have a go at re-doing this section, however I do not understand your problem with one sentence paragraphs. A paragraph is not a collection of sentences, but rather one or more logically connected sentences about a single idea.  Some ideas can be fully stated without needing to go to more than one sentence and so a single sentence is appropriate.  Nevertheless, what I intend is to restructure this into a series of sub sections, If I can combine two or more of the single sentence paragraphs onto one, without losing the granularity of the ideas I will do so. Nick Thorne  talk  07:42, 2 October 2007 (UTC)✅
 * One sentence paragraphs break the flow of the article and hinder readability. I assume you're going to nominate the article for FA eventually, and you'd be asked to eliminate 1-sentence paragraphs there as well. Anyway, thank you very much for changing it, and it looks great. Jude. 23:07, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

 * In the sentence "The following exotic disease organisms all seriously affect wild Murray cod; all have been introduced by reckless imports of exotic fish.", remove the bolding on exotic and introduced. also, the characterization "reckless" is pov.✅
 * "Some light has been made of two small surveys"- I'm not sure quite what this is trying to say- These studies have shed some light? ✅
 * Aquariums:

 * "At a minimum, disinfect all live food for 1 hour in a 10 gram per litre salt solution before feeding"- spell out "one hour"✅
 * "Watching one of these predatory native fish ambush"- it's only native if the reader lives in Australia.✅

References required
Referencing:References are needed for
 * Size:

 * "Large breeding fish are rare in most wild populations today."
 * Moved to quarantine✅
 * Related Species:

 * the pattern of "speciation into lowland and specialist upland species",✅
 * the extinction of Coastal cod in the Richmond River system and the Brisbane River system.✅
 * Taxonomy:

 * the origin of the species name✅
 * that the Mary River cod might be a sub-species of eastern freshwater cod.✅
 * Range:

 * the fact that the Murray cod's natural range encompasses virtually the whole Murray-Darling Basin.✅
 * Age:

 * "native fish of southeast Australia being incredibly long-lived"✅
 * Slighty changed wordine to reflect reference. Nick Thorne talk  08:11, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Diet:

 * "Murray cod at night are active pelagic predators"✅
 * Reproduction:

 * "Such large females may also have valuable, successful genes to pass on."
 * moved to quarantine ✅

 * "and that decades of overfishing is playing a far larger role in the current state of Murray cod stocks, through depletion of spawning adults, than first thought."✅
 * "copious evidence that the health of Australian lowland river ecosystems generally rely on periodic spring flooding."✅
 * "Excessive water extraction, meanwhile, has caused numerous fish kills in recent years."
 * Moved to quarantine ✅

 * "The long term viability of wild Murray cod, other native fish species and river ecosystems, in the face of this fact, are of great concern."✅
 * Conservation:

 * "Snags are also critical for .... in-stream productivity."✅
 * "The current size limit of 50 cm i...sexual maturity in Murray cod"✅
 * "Although angler effects are....point of non-existence in many waters."✅
 * "A tightening of fishing regulations ... alleviate this problem."✅
 * "Important issues affecting restoration ....the National Recovery Plan when it is completed."✅
 * Aquariums:

 * "In heatwave conditions ...far above usual levels."
 * Moved to quarantine ✅

 * "Unlike many freshwater fish, Murray cod are highly tolerant of salt ...extreme drought"✅
 * "With soft skin... skin infections. "✅
 * the paragraph that begins "A common complaint voiced about small Murray cod in aquariums ..."✅

If you like, you can mark ✅ next to each bulleted point as you finish it. Cheers, Jude. 22:54, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Dear Reviewer...
Dear Reviewer

Not withstanding the copious and dedicated work my colleague Nick has put in to wikifying this page, as the primary author of this page I must point out the following on some of your edit suggestions:

"Spawning is initiated by pairing up and courtship rituals"- "pairing up" sounds unencyclopedic.

Pairing up is an accepted term in fish biology, and used in scientific papers on fish biology, so this term must stay.

''In the sentence "The following exotic disease organisms all seriously affect wild Murray cod; all have been introduced by reckless imports of exotic fish.", remove the bolding on exotic and introduced. also, the characterization "reckless" is pov.''

In this case, reckless is an accurate descriptor, not a POV. Imports of exotic fish in the 1800s into Australia were reckless.

 * I'm afraid I agree that although the actions can easily be described as reckless - IMO they certainly were, I agree that it has the look and feel of an NPOV violation, so I have removed the word. Any reader is still going to get the message. Nick Thorne  talk  13:53, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

''Referencing:References are needed for

Size: "Large breeding fish are rare in most wild populations today."

Related Species: the pattern of "speciation into lowland and specialist upland species", ✅ the extinction of Coastal cod in the Richmond River system and the Brisbane River system Taxonomy: the origin of the species name that the Mary River cod might be a sub-species of eastern freshwater cod. Range: the fact that the Murray cod's natural range encompasses virtually the whole Murray-Darling Basin. Age: "native fish of southeast Australia being incredibly long-lived" Diet: "Murray cod at night are active pelagic predators" Reproduction: "Such large females may also have valuable, successful genes to pass on." "and that decades of overfishing is playing a far larger role in the current state of Murray cod stocks, through depletion of spawning adults, than first thought." "copious evidence that the health of Australian lowland river ecosystems generally rely on periodic spring flooding." "Excessive water extraction, meanwhile, has caused numerous fish kills in recent years." "The long term viability of wild Murray cod, other native fish species and river ecosystems, in the face of this fact, are of great concern." Conservation: "Snags are also critical for .... in-stream productivity." "The current size limit of 50 cm i...sexual maturity in Murray cod" "Although angler effects are....point of non-existence in many waters." "A tightening of fishing regulations ... alleviate this problem."''

All of these points are copiously referenced. Anyone who wanted more information on any these points would find them if they followed up the references provided. Honestly, this is an astonishingly well-referenced article and more references are not needed.

''"Important issues affecting restoration...the National Recovery Plan when it is completed." Aquariums: "In heatwave conditions ...far above usual levels." "Unlike many freshwater fish, Murray cod are highly tolerant of salt ...extreme drought" "With soft skin... skin infections. " the paragraph that begins "A common complaint voiced about small Murray cod in aquariums ..."''

These are the experiences of aquarists that keep Murray cod. Unfortunately no publications have been released which discuss the preferences of Murray cod in aquaria to any serious degree. So what do we do? This information is useful for people and valid, even if it can't be linked to publications.

Codman 10:12, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Dear Codman

 * "Pairing up": I hadn't realized that it was a biological term, so thank you for pointing this out to me.
 * "reckless imports of exotic fish": Using the word "reckless" violates Neutral point of view and Words to avoid. The import of exotic fish in the 1800s was reckless, but the reader is able to realize that for himself when he/she sees the negative impact that it has had on the Murray cod population.

 * "References are needed for..." if the references are already in the article, then just add the  tag to whatever fact is also found in that reference. I didn't mean to imply that new references must be found, just that they must be placed next to specific facts. This is so that "anyone who wanted more information on any these points" would know which specific book or article to look at.
 * "These are the experiences of aquarists...": as far as the fact that "Important issues..., should be dealt with in the National Recovery Plan when it is completed.", the first half of the sentence is fine, it's just the "should be dealt with" part that's a problem. It needs an expert source, otherwise it's just an editor writing that it should be addressed. "In heatwave conditions...", if it doesn't have a source, I think that this sentence shouldn't be included. It's important that Murray cod aren't tolerant of heat, but a specific heatwave that has impacted Murray cod in aquariums isn't that necessary for a reader to know. "Murray cod are highly tolerant of salt..." if there's a source which was used for the figure in "a salinity of 2 grams per litre", then that would be fine. "With soft skin... skin infections" A source that talks about skin infections in soft-skinned fish in general would be fine. "A common complaint voiced about small Murray cod in aquariums ..." If it is a "common complaint", then there should be a source for it. And whether they are "rewarding"- well, compared to what other fish? It's also a matter of opinion, as they wouldn't be particularly rewarding to someone who doesn't like fish. Paragraph could be written: In the first few months of life, small Murray cod in aquariums will not show themselves during the day. However, they generally suddenly gain confidence upon reaching a certain size, becoming inquisitive and responsive.

 * I hope these comments were helpful to you, and if you have any other issues or questions about my suggestions, don't hesitate to let me know. Cheers, Jude. 11:20, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that. The only alternative I see for saying "reckless imports of introduced fish" would be to say something like "imports of introduced fish that also imported many disease organisms that now seriously affect native fish."  This of course makes it clear that the import were reckless.  But it's a clumsy way of doing IMHO compared to just calling it what it was — reckless.  (I think the whole NPOV can be taken too far.)

 * See my comments above Nick Thorne talk  13:53, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

As for the aquarium-keeping information, you have to understand that in terms of research, management and publications our Murray-Darling native fish have been shockingly neglected in favour of exotic fish until the last couple of decades (in fact, the introduced-fish-cringe continues in many ways) and so there really is a dearth of published information on keeping them in aquariums. This is especially so for Murray cod, which weren't available, and people didn't keep in aquariums, until the last couple of decades. I could hunt around and find a very second-rate aquarium book that gives Murray cod a one-line mention, and contains no real information, and is therefore not worth referencing, or I could hunt around and find some technical aquaculture references for water parameters for Murray cod in aquaculture operations, which really are very inapplicable. Considering these issues, and the enormous amount of work I have (and my colleague Nick has) put into this page, it is probably reasonable to let this section be. A compromise would be to put an explanatory sentence or two at the start of the section explaining that "as the practice of keeping Murray cod as aquarium fish is relatively recent, there are currently no worthwhile publications providing detailed information on keeping Murray cod in aquariums. Therefore the following information is based on the informal experiences of a number of native fish aquarists..." Codman 22:51, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

 * I agree with codman, the state of published info about Australian native fish in aquarium culture is virtually non-existant. In fact after working on this page the last few days I have decided that I need to greatly expand aquarium info on the Murray cod page on the Native Fish Australia web site and I will be doing this soon.  No help here, though. Nick Thorne  talk  13:53, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Beginning the section with an sentence saying that "the following information is based on the informal experiences of a number of native fish aquarists..." would be more or less an announcement that the section is based on original research, which is defined as "a term used in Wikipedia to refer to unpublished facts, arguments, concepts, statements, or theories." 2a of the Good Article critera states that a Good Article cannot contain original research. If the article contains original research, I cannot pass it. --Jude. 18:15, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I am aware of the original research restriction, and I do not plan to introduce such a statement to the article. I am currently seeing what I can dig up to provide the necessary external references for this section, it may be that we will have to significantly curtail the info here until further information is published, or I can find up to date reference material.  Not my preferred option, but it may be a necessary evil. Nick Thorne  talk  05:28, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It's valuable and accurate information, and readers shouldn't miss out on it simply because nobody has bothered to collate and publish it in a formal publication. The easiest way forward is publish this information on the Native Fish Australia website first, then place it in the Murray cod article where it is now, and use the NFA site as a reference for it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.91.9.131 (talk) 03:24, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, but we do have to follow the principle of deriving all information in Wikipedia from other sources, preferabley primary sources when available. The point is so that information can be verified by an interested reader.  This maintains the quality of the article overall.  Regrettably with some aspects of Aus native fish, very little has been published.  What I intend is for things I cannot find a suitable source for, I am going to "park" them on this talk page, until a suitable reference can be found and then as each one becomes "referencable" to coin an expression it can be moved back onto the article.
 * Also, please sign your entries here, since this is a serious discussion. Nick Thorne  talk  07:49, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * 'Twas me. I don't agree that such valuable information sits idle here on the talk page.  I think these "rules" can be excessively applied at times.  Maybe we will be forced to use a combination of technical Murray cod aquaculture references (assuming they can be found) and Merrick & Schmida (1984).  Codman 09:26, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well it comes down to this: do we want the article to acheive GA status or not. If we do, and I certainly do, then we have to follow the rules.  getting into an argument with the reviewers will not help, it is only likely to p them off.  The best solution is to provide references for the quarantined statements then put them back into the article.  There are not many, and I am nearly finished running through the list so I do not expect there to be many more.  At the end of the day I believe it is necessary to give up ownership of the article, it is after all a public domain document and not sweat it too much if theodd statement is left out - the sky will not fall, believe me.  Nick Thorne  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  00:13, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I will have a look at the reference requests you suggest above, but I am out of time just now. Nick Thorne <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  13:53, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Quarantine
I will "park" statements here from the article that I assert are true, but for which I have been unable to find a suitable reference. These can be moved back into the article once such references are found. The section from which the sentence comes is in bild. Nick Thorne <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  11:16, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Size: Large breeding fish are rare in most wild populations today.

Reproduction Such large females may also have valuable, successful genes to pass on.

Excessive water extraction, meanwhile, has caused numerous fish kills in recent years.

In Aquariums In heatwave conditions in the summer of 2004/2005 a number of aquarists in Australia suffered unfortunate losses as house and tank temperatures soared far above usual levels.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Nick Thorne (talk • contribs) 01:08, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Sorry Nick, I know you're trying to improve the article, but I vehemently disagree with this move. The above are vital statements that must remain.  Kearney 2001 and the Proceeding of the 2004 Murray Workshop, both of which are already in the references, support the first statement, and I have provided a huge number of references to support the second statement.  (The "large female" thing being a general and now recognised trend in most fish species.)  Please, put them back.  They had more than enough references supporting them.  cheers, Codman 12:34, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I have spent a great deal of time trying to find suitable references, if you are saying that these statements are covered by existing references, then just add the statements back giving the correct reference. I am not just trying to improve the article, I am trying to get the article to GA status and to do that it is necessary that the article comply with Wikipedia policy regarding verifiability of all content.  I am not saying that I think the above statements are not true, quite the contrary, but we must obey the rules and I intend to park more statements here if I cannot find suitable references for them.  You can helkp by finding or listing suitable references for the requested statements from our reviewer.  The quicker this is done the better and remember that I have not read all the references you have included, plus since I do not have access to much of the published literature because you have to subscribe to the publishing services, my abolity to source suitable refernces is limited. Nick Thorne  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  20:51, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Fixed. This article is extraordinarily well referenced, and I feel we are doing a bit of hoop-jumping here at times...  Anyhoo, cheers...  Codman 21:33, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

 * When you say fixed, what do you mean?  If you have moved statements back into the artlicle, please mark them as ✅ above using the code: ✅, otherwise we will get hopeliessly lost Nick Thorne  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  22:05, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Sorry, I don't have a good handle of all this blasted Wiki code. Codman 00:30, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Additional issues
Good work so far, but two issues with the article have become apparent to me. The 27th inline citation has no text in it, giving an error message. Second, per the Manual of Style, a summary section is not appropriate. It reads too much like a personal essay, and in parts is rather POV. Van Tucky  Talk 22:59, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Can't agree. It seems the moment we say things like "these factors have caused a serious decline in wild Murray cod numbers" or "these factors leave wild Murray cod populations at serious risk of further decline" we get accuse of POV.  I don't believe it is so.  The summary is valid, and that statements in it are valid.  The factors we list have caused declines, and do leave wild populations at further risk.  I believe it's a valid summary, not POV.  I feel that we're almost at the point where we shouldn't saying anything except "oh this might have affected Murray cod".  What's the point?  If we have the research and references, and we know x factor HAS affected Murray cod, we should be able to say so, and saying so is not POV.  Cheers, Codman 02:02, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * You're taking it way too personally dude. We can deal with the issues of POV by making sure we can back up what we say with published material.  Nick Thorne  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  02:11, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yep, I've picked up the inline ref problem - a typo, as to be expected. The Summary sub section was to allow conclusion of the Conservation section outside the sub sections, I felt that just continuing would make the last part look like the previous sub section.  Do you have a suggestion how to achieve this? Nick Thorne  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  00:23, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It's OK, I thought of a way to do this Nick Thorne <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  00:23, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Are we there yet?
I believe I have addressed all the issues raised, and request that the article be reviewed. Of course, if there is anything else that needs to be done, just let me know. The quarantined statements will eventually be returned to the article, when I manage to secure suitable references for them, I just don't have time to traul through hundreds of possible references at this time. Nick Thorne <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  01:44, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Looks good to me! Van Tucky  Talk 01:51, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Nick, I must say it's looking damn good now (just had a skim). Your efforts have been excellent.  Codman 06:29, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I just passed it. Excellent work! Jude.  11:07, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Citation templates
✅I am currently retro fitting the citation templates to the inline references, one section at a time. I believe that this will make it easier to manage the refernces when editing the document and should produce a more consistent format in the reference list at the bottom of the article. If anyone wants to help out go right ahead, but I will gradually get all the way through the article on my own. Nick Thorne <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  04:40, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

HELP! Why has the date become wiki-linked in Reference No 4? It has not done it for the other references I have so far applied the citation templates to. Nick Thorne <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  04:51, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It's OK, I've worked it out.

If anyone sees any errors introduced as I go through the references converting them to the citation template, please leace me a message here, I will fix it ASAP Nick Thorne  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  07:29, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Done for now
I'm going to leave this article alone now for a while, before I embark on any further major work on it. Fresh eyes I do not have for it just now! However, if someone finds a problem, then please let me know here and I will happily attend to it. Nick Thorne <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  14:19, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Not a problem, but i would like to know why there isn't a section on fishing (not previous overfishing), both commercial and recreational. I know the species is stocked in dams for angling purposes, i'm not sure about commercial purposes though. If you move towards putting the article up for FAC (which you should... its good), you should probably mention this.Kare Kare 10:40, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I plan to include a section about fishing and also use in aquaculture, probably both as subsections under relationship with humans. Nick Thorne  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  20:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Conservation Status
I have changed the conservation status back from Critically endangered to Vulnerable which is the official status in Australia

See Australian Federal Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999 (EPBC Act) listing under Vulnerable Fish in the | EPBC Act List of Threatened Fauna and the species listing at | Murra cod listing

I believe the IUCN listing (which BTW is listed as out of date on the IUCN redlist database) is incorrect and was intended for trout cod Maccullochella macquariensis which was the scientific name for Murray cod before the two species were finally separated in the mid 1970s. At no time has it been reasonable to describe Murray cod as critically endangered, the species is widespread and although not as common as it once was, still found in large numbers and in self supporting populations throughout much of its original range. Nick Thorne <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  20:48, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Century
WP:CENTURY indicates nn00s is best avoided. I am avoiding it. You are insisting on an exception for no provided reason. Thanks Hmains (talk) 23:48, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * WP:CENTURY, doesn't state it is necessary or that it has to be used. Bidgee (talk) 02:09, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It is not necessary to justify the status quo until and unless the proponent for change has produced a cogent reason for that change. "I don't like it" is not a reason and that appears to be all your change is based upon.  The current usage is perfectly acceptable, unambiguous and understandable and you have not shown how, if at all, your proposed change improves the encyclopedia.  It may well be that there are valid reasons to make such a change and I might even support it if someone produces such reasons.  What I won't support is editors making unilateral decisions for change which are clearly not supported by regulars to the page and which are re-applied several times by the same editor when several other editors have reverted the change.  You have so far avoided the letter of the 3Rs rule, but clearly not the spirit.  Time to talk lest you invoke the ire of those with power to do something about it. -  Nick Thorne  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  11:23, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

 * I take your comments as a threat and not an argument. "Avoid" means 'do not do'.  That is very clear English in the MOS.  You have offered no reason why you want to ignore the MOS.  If you have a reason to ignore the MOS in a particular case, you should document it as a comment in the article text.  My changing your article to make it match the MOS is a valid editing activity; your reverting my work to violate the MOS with no valid explanation is not.  Please explain why you think it is important to leave your readers wondering whether you are writing about a decade or a century.  Thanks Hmains (talk) 04:01, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
 * WP:CENTURY states it is best avoided, it doesn't mean every article should avoid the use of 1800s, 1900s, 2000s ect. Fact is the MOS also states "It should also be noted that the 18th century (1701–1800) and the 1700s (1700–1799) do not span the same period." Bidgee (talk) 05:12, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I made no threats, I offered you advice. In case you were wondering, I certainly do not have the power to do anything should you break the 3Rs rule.  Secondly, you still have not provided any reasons why your changes improve the article.  Wikilawyering about what the MOS states does not impress me at all and is no substitute for actual logical argument.  As the one proposing the change the burden lies upon you to justify it.  I am open to such argument, but I have not seen any yet.  I suggest you climb down off your high horse and explain in what way your proposed change will improve the article.  That is all I am asking of you, is that so unreasonable? -  Nick Thorne  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  07:39, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

 * Reasonable writing gets reasonable responses and not otherwise.  If the article reads '1800s' for example, that can mean either 1800 to 1809 or 1800 to 1899.  This is not clear.  We are supposed to write in a clear and unambiguous style so that the reader does not have to guess what we mean.  The reader may guess wrong because our writing left room for interpretation.  This is simply a matter of clarity and being of service to readers.  This is, I suppose, the reason why the MOS says 'avoid'.  Instead of 1800s one could write 'between 1800 and 1899' if you really wanted to, but most writing uses 19th century which puts things maybe 1 year wrong, but not 90 years wrong.  You may not like the MOS, but to be a WP writer, we are supposed to follow it.  Thanks Hmains (talk) 05:57, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
 * This is a straw-man argument, no reader would interpret "1800s" as meaning 1800-1809 in this context. The only time that such a usage would be applicable would be in a discussion about differing decades within the century, which quite clearly is not the case in this instance because the use of "1800s" is correlated with "1900s" - obviously we are talking about centuries here.  Any reasonable reader will understand what is being referred to.  The Wiki guidelines do not require us to take into account unreasonable interpretations.  If you really want to push this change any further I suggest you start an RFC, otherwise just let it drop. -  Nick Thorne  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  07:59, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

 * Sorry. Things that are so very clear to authors are not so equally clear to other readers, especially those who come to WP to learn and come with varying degrees of education and English knowledge.  This is why the MOS (the WP consensus) says what it says.  I also get more than a whiff of article ownership from the sentence above "What I won't support is editors making unilateral decisions for change which are clearly not supported by regulars to the page".  As you know must in WP, 'regulars' have no special power or privilege so such a statement has no bearing here whatsoever.  Hmains (talk) 04:38, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't own this page - my comment is a general one and applies to any page. "Regulars" to a page are simply those who keep a particular article on their watch list and who have a particular interest in its subject.  Instead of making uncivil allegations to those you think disagree with you, you could perhaps try to assume good faith.  You still have not supported your proposed change with any actual reasons for it - the current usage on the page is clearly allowed for in the MOS, so you need to use more than a bit of MOS hand waving to support it.  As I said ealier, I am not irrevokably wedded to the current wording, but I do not agree that I don't like it is a valid reason for change.  Come to this discussion with some positive arguments and you might find that they get a better hearing.  As it stands you started this whole thing off by trying to push your change through despite clear opposition from several other editors, ignoring the bold, revert, discuss cycle convention. As a result you now need to work a little harder to convince other editors that your change really is in the best interest of the article since that certainly did not seem to be the case when you continued to apply the same change four times, being reverted by three different editors (including myself) with no attempt to discuss the change until taken to task for it after the 4th attempt.  Again, I urge you to start an RFC if you really want to make this change - let the community decide. -  Nick Thorne  <sup style="color:darkblue;">talk  14:45, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Needs an "As Food" section.
Other fish have an As-Food, why not this one? It is excellent eating. That's not a POV - All the government department posters of fishes that rate those fish in terms of edibility have always given this fish the highest rating (usuall five stars ***** ). Old_Wombat (talk) 07:59, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

National recovery plan released in 2010
The article currently says:
 * '' Important issues affecting restoration of cod populations, such as the need for spring floods and excessive angler take, although yet to be addressed, will be dealt with in the National Recovery Plan when it is completed.

The national recovery plan was released in October 2010.

http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/threatened/publications/recovery/murray-cod.html

This part of the article needs to be updated, but I expect the entire section and other sections also need an update. John Vandenberg (chat) 05:26, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 00:38, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 7 one external links on Murray cod. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080723235215/http://pas.dpi.nsw.gov.au/Species/Species_Profile.aspx?SpeciesListingID=3 to http://pas.dpi.nsw.gov.au/Species/Species_Profile.aspx?SpeciesListingID=3
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070831151522/http://www.landmark.mdbc.gov.au/education/basinkids/basin_fish/fish_names.htm to http://www.landmark.mdbc.gov.au/education/basinkids/basin_fish/Fish_Names.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070903055041/http://www.mdbc.gov.au:80/about/basin_statistics to http://www.mdbc.gov.au/about/basin_statistics
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title: Talk:Murray cod


text: Talk:Indulgence

title: Talk:Indulgence


text:
James Simms (instrument maker)

James Simms (1828 – 4 September 1915) was an English instrument maker.

He succeeded his father William Simms (1793 – 1860) at the instrument making firm Troughton & Simms. The firm made instruments of various kinds, including notably astronomical instruments and telescopes.

For about ten years, until 1871, his partner in the firm was his cousin William Simms (1817 – 1907), who was the son of his uncle James, the brother of his father William. After 1871 he was sole proprietor. After his death, he was succeeded in the firm by his sons, who were named William and James.

Obituaries

 * MNRAS 76 (1916) 268 (with genealogical tree)
 * Obs 38 (1915) 471

title: James Simms (instrument maker)


text:
Ōdachi

The ōdachi (大太刀) (large/great sword) or field sword (野太刀)  is a type of traditionally made Japanese sword (日本刀)  used by the samurai class of feudal Japan. The Chinese equivalent of this type of sword in terms of weight and length is the miaodao or the earlier zhanmadao, and the Western battlefield equivalent (though less similar) is the Zweihänder.

To qualify as an ōdachi, the sword in question would have a blade length of around 3 shaku (90.9 cm). However, as with most terms in Japanese sword arts, there is no exact definition of the size of an ōdachi.

Etymology
The character for ō (大) means "big" or "great"; no (野) means "field". The dachi here (太刀) is simply the voiced compounding version of the term tachi (太刀), the older style of sword that predates the katana. The second character in tachi, 刀, is the Chinese character for "blade" (see also dāo), and is also the same character used to spell katana (刀) and the tō in nihontō (日本刀 "Japanese sword").

The word tachi itself is derived as the stem or noun form of verb tatsu (断つ). The kanji spelling is an example of jukujikun, applying a semantically based kanji spelling without regard to the usual phonetic values of the characters.

History
Ōdachi became popular in Kamakura period (1185－1333). Until the middle of the Kamakura period, high-ranking samurai mainly fought on horseback with yumi (bows), but as group battles by foot soldiers increased from the late Kamakura period, the importance of weapons possessed by those who did not have horses and did not have sufficient training in bows increased. Until then, they mainly used naginata with a long handle, but they also started to use ōdachi. The Kamakura period was the first time that samurai ruled Japan, and powerful men were valued, and those who wanted to show off the honor of being a warrior preferred to use ōdachi.

In the Nanboku-chō period in the 14th century, huge Japanese swords such as ōdachi were at their peak. The reason for this is thought to be that the conditions for making a practical large-sized sword were established due to the nationwide spread of strong and sharp swords of the Sōshū school. In the case of ōdachi whose blade was 150 cm long, it was impossible to draw a sword from the scabbard on the waist, so people carried it on their back or had their servants carry it. Large naginata and kanabō were also popular in this period. However, infantry units gradually came to be equipped with yari (spears) in addition to naginata, and because ōdachi was disadvantageous for mountain battles and surprise attacks, and only a few powerful men could use it effectively, this trend ended for a short time. Furthermore, from the Sengoku period in the latter part of the Muromachi period to the Azuchi-Momoyama period, as tactics shifted to fighting with yari and tanegashima (guns) by a large group of infantry, ōdachi became even more obsolete. As ōdachi became useless, it was often replaced with a tachi and katana.

Even so, sengoku-daimyo in the Sengoku period dared to equip their own troops with ōdachi in order to show off their strength and bravery. Uesugi Kenshin had men more than six shaku (approx. 182 cm) tall equipped with an ōdachi guard around his horse. The Asakura clan made a troop called Rikishizei (力士勢) equip with an ōdachi with a blade length of 5 shaku (approx. 152 cm), and fought well against the troop of Oda Nobunaga in the Battle of Anegawa.

The ōdachi was used as a weapon, but because of its magnificent appearance, it was often used as an offering to kami, a Shinto shrine. For example, Ōyamazumi Shrine, which is said to be a treasure house of Japanese swords and armor, is dedicated to the national treasure Ōdachi, which was dedicated by Emperor Go-Murakami, and ōdachi, which was dedicated by Ōmori Naoharu and killed Kusunoki Masashige.

In the peaceful Edo period, ōdachi was no longer regarded as a practical weapon and came to be recognized only as an offering to the kami of Shinto shrines.

According to the historical book Wakan Shuyo (和翰集要), the nodachi (野太刀) had a blade length of 3 shaku (traditional Japanese feet) and 9 sun (traditional Japanese inches; approx. 148 cm) and ōdachi had a blade length of 3 shaku 3 sun (approx. 125 cm), but in fact, they were not strictly distinguished between nodachi and ōdachi, and it is thought that the term ōdachi indicated a long tachi, and the term nodachi indicated an ōdachi used in field battles (in keeping with the name, since the initial no (野) literally means "field").

Production
Ōdachi are difficult to produce because their length makes traditional heat treatment more complicated: The longer a blade is, the more difficult (and expensive) it is to heat the whole blade to a homogeneous temperature, both for annealing and to reach the hardening temperature. The quenching process then needs a bigger quenching medium because uneven quenching might lead to warping the blade.

The method of polishing is also different. Because of their size, ōdachi are usually hung from the ceiling or placed in a stationary position to be polished, unlike normal swords which are moved over polishing stones.

Method of use
As battlefield weapons, ōdachi were too long for samurai to carry on their waists like normal swords. There were two main methods in which they could be carried. One was to carry it on one's back and unsheathe before battle starts. The other method was simply to carry the sheathed ōdachi by hand. The trend during the Muromachi era was for the samurai carrying the ōdachi to have a follower to help draw it.

An exception does exist, though. The Kōden Enshin-ryū taught by Fumon Tanaka use a special drawing technique for "short" ōdachi allowing it to be carried on the waist. The technique is to pull out the sheath rather than drawing the blade. While this move is also used in other schools, for example, Yagyū Shinkage-ryū, Shin musō Hayashizaki-ryū and Iaidō, only Enshin-ryū seems to have used it to improve the drawing speed of an ōdachi, the other schools having used it with classical katana. The Kage-ryū style is also used to draw from the belt, using blades of approximately 2.8 shaku (84.9 cm.

Ōdachi swordplay styles differed from that of other Japanese swords, focusing on downward cuts.

One possible use of ōdachi is as large anti-cavalry weapons, to strike down the horse as it approaches. Alternatively, it could be used as a cavalry-on-cavalry weapon comparable to the Chinese zhanmadao, with the long reach, increased weight and slashing area of the blade offering some advantages over spears, lances, and smaller swords.

Ōdachi Norimitsu
One of the longest ōdachi is the Odachi Norimitsu with a total length of 377 cm. It was forged by the Japanese master bladesmith Norimitsu Osafune in the former Bishū province in August 1446. It is kept in the Yahiko jinja (弥彦神社) in the village of Yahiko, Nishikanbara District, Niigata Prefecture, Japan. A special attribute is that this blade was forged from one piece, similarly to the conventional Japanese katana; it was not forged from multiple pieces or sections. This required the skill of a master bladesmith. The blade, hada and hamon are authentic. This odachi has a bo-hi (fuller). Norimitsu was a famous line of swordsmiths that began in the Oei Bizen school (1394) and continued until the end of Bizen. Around 2000, it was polished and named "Kibitsu maru" by the priest of Kibitsu Shrine in Okayama Prefecture.

Specifications
These are the specifications of the Ōdachi Norimitsu.

 * Total length: 377 cm
 * Nagasa (cutting edge): 226.7 cm
 * Sori (curvature): 5 cm
 * Nakago (tang): 151 cm
 * Blade thickness (maximum): 2.34 cm
 * Habaki (collar to hold blade in scabbard): 5.85 cm
 * Weight: 14.5 kg
 * Mei (blade signature, 銘): Bishu Osafune Norimitsu (備州)
 * Location: Kibitsu Shrine, Okayama.
 * Production date: August 1446 (Muromachi period)
 * Sugata (blade shape): Shinogi-zukuri, maru-mune, bo-hi with maru-dome
 * Hada (grain pattern, 肌): Itame
 * Hamon (temper pattern): Ko-gunome, choji with tobiyaki and kinsuji.

Haja-no-Ontachi
The longest known ōdachi is the Haja-no-Ontachi (Great Evil-Crushing Blade). Its length is 465 cm with an overall weight of 75 kg. In 1859, this ōdachi was donated to the Hanaoka Hachiman Shrine in Yamaguchi during an imperial memorial ceremony by parishioners who sympathized with imperial patriots. It is kept in the Treasure House which is not open to the public.

title: Ōdachi


text:
Black XXX-Mas

Black XXX-Mas is a 1999 Belgian short film by Pieter Van Hees about a poor family on Christmas Eve, in a story that loosely follows Little Red Riding Hood. It stars Rochelle Gadd, Don Warrington, and Manou Kersting.

Plot
Little Red (Rochelle Gadd) goes out on Christmas Eve to buy some drugs on the dangerous streets, aptly named "The Forest". She is caught with a joint by a crooked police officer, "Wolfy" (Manou Kersting), who seems more interested in molesting Red than making the arrest. When some careless tourists snap photos of Wolfy's lewd behavior, he is forced to shoot them, then eats Red, the only witness.

Meanwhile, Red's father, Black Santa (Don Warrington), goes out to steal some presents from rich families. He happens to break into Wolfy's house, and ends up having sex with his wife. Wolfy comes home to find his wife with Santa, and shoots her. Santa manages to grab a gun from above the fireplace and shoots Wolfy. Hearing Red's voice coming from inside Wolfy's body, Santa tears open Wolfy's body to find his daughter safe, although shaken.

Later in the evening, Red and her family sing carols around the Christmas tree, which is now topped by a star, Wolfy's police badge.

Cast

 * Don Warrington as Black Santa
 * Rochelle Gadd as Little Red
 * Manou Kersting as Office Wolfy
 * Hilde Wils as Mrs. Santa

Reception
Academic Jack Zipes wrote, "As gruesome as this film is, it is also very funny." In reviewing it on a collection of shorts from Atom.com, Chris Hughes of DVD Talk called the premise "a springboard for broad religious and social satire". Hughes described the dialogue as "snappy and quotable".

It won a Pixie Award in 2001.

title: Black XXX-Mas


text:
Gyromancy

Gyromancy is a method of divination in which a person spins around inside or walks the circumference of a circle drawn on the ground, the perimeter of which is marked with the letters of an alphabet. The divination is inferred from the letter at the position where the person either stumbles or falls across the circle's edge. The person would repeat the practice "...till he evolved an intelligible sentence, or till death or madness intervened." The dizziness brought on by spinning or circling is intended to introduce randomness or to facilitate an altered state of consciousness.

The word is derived from Medieval Latin, gyromantia, which is derived from Greek (circle) and  (oracle).

Gyromancy is mentioned in the PlayStation game Silent Hill (video game).

title: Gyromancy