text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Presbyterium

Dicdef. merge into Roman Catholic Church. - UtherSRG 05:43, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Do wut da man sez. —  Ilγαηερ   (Tαlκ)  05:51, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Keep. Mostly a dictdef, but one that I suspect can be improved upon by a historian of Holy Mother Church, and also a term very likely to be searched on. -- orthogonal 08:44, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete: It's a bit too fine a definition, here. For example, the Ox. Dict. of the Christian Church doesn't have the term.  New Advent does, of course, but they have everything.  I can't think of any examples of this term being used preferentially or where it has been an issue in church history.  While the "presbyter-" root is useful for people to understand so that they can pick up the reason Presbyterians are called that, etc., this is too small a usage to warrant a stand alone entry. Geogre 14:07, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * I vote to keep the definition (as revised). While I understand the sentiments expressed above, I feel that the entry for presbyterium attempts to recover (in accordance with the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council) the concepts of collaborative ministry and shared decision making found in the early Christian community of the sub-Apostolic age, and lost later with the establishment of the monarchial episcopate. I have revised the definition to evince these aspects and do hope that you favorably consider its inclusion. Aloysius Patacsil 18:11, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * If as Aloysius says, it's important to the ongoing principles-and-structure debates in the RC Church, then it's worth keeping- it's something people will look up. It needs some more historical background, but that can be gotten readily enough. Tentative keep. -FZ 22:42, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. "Presbyterate" is the current proper word for a group of priests not as or of an organization (such as a college, chapter, or order), but taken as a group.  See: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_cclergy_doc_23111998_pvatican_en.html for this usage. Presbyterium is an archiac word for this idea and is also an archaic word for a part of a Catholic church now called in English "sanctuary".--Samuel J. Howard 19:02, Aug 4, 2004 (UTC)
 * There is a distinction between the terms presbyterate and presbyterium. I do not believe that they are synonymous at all. In current usage in the Roman Catholic Church, "presbyterate" more properly refers to the "order" (generally without reference to the particular church or diocese) of those deacons who have been ordained to be pastors who anoint the sick and administer viaticum, confect the Eucharist and absolve sins (i.e., caring for souls, or cura animarum), in addition to carrying out their diaconal functions of proclaiming the gospel, preaching, baptizing, blessing marriages and presiding at funeral rites. The term "presbyterium" on the other hand refers to the "presbyterate" of a particular church in union with its Ordinary. At the mass of the Chrism on Maundy Thursday, for example, the Bishop gathers with his presbyterium (not the presbyterate) in the cathedral church to renew their committment to the priestly life, to consecrate the chrism and to bless the oil of the sick and the oil of catechumens. At the ordination of priests, after the Bishop lays hands on the ordinandi, the presbyterium (not the presbyterate) follows suit. Aloysius Patacsil 04:15, Aug 5, 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. It seems to me that there is sufficint overlap between the terms "presbyterate" and "presbyterium" that they could be discussed within the context of the same article, which I think should be located at presbyterate. -Sean Curtin 20:32, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)


text:
Joe Comuzzi

Joseph Robert Comuzzi, (April 5, 1933 – December 31, 2021) was a Canadian lawyer and politician who served as a cabinet minister under Prime Minister Paul Martin. He served as a Member of Parliament (MP) from 1988 to 2008, representing Thunder Bay—Nipigon which was renamed Thunder Bay—Superior North in 2000.

Early life
Comuzzi was born in Fort William, Ontario, on April 5, 1933. He studied at the University of Windsor, graduating in 1954 with a Bachelor of Arts degree. Twelve years later, he received the University of Windsor Alumni Award of Merit, the Alumni Association's most prestigious award. After working in the Thunder Bay business community for 24 years, he went back to his alma mater and obtained a law degree in 1980. He also served as a school representative on the Lakehead Board of Education.

Political career
Comuzzi entered federal politics in 1988, running in the election that year for the Liberal Party of Canada. He was elected to the House of Commons, representing the riding of Thunder Bay—Superior North. As an opposition MP, he served as chair of the Standing Committee on Transport and a member of the Standing Joint Committee on the Scrutiny of Regulations. During his tenure as an MP, Comuzzi advocated for key issues specific to his riding: Great Lakes transportation and water quality, the pulp and paper industry, the softwood lumber dispute, grain transportation, mining, small business, health care and the local economy. He also served in various leadership capacities pertaining to transportation and industry. His views on gun registry spending and official bilingualism were at odds with the Liberals. His call to review the latter policy on its 25th anniversary in 1998 drew the ire of Prime Minister Jean Chrétien.

Comuzzi was appointed Minister of State responsible for the Federal Economic Development Initiative for Northern Ontario (FedNor) on December 12, 2003. While Minister of State, he was forced to apologize for remarks about Quebecers when, in commenting on the Sponsorship scandal, he stated, "I guess that's how they do politics there." He served as co-chair of the Canada–United States Inter-Parliamentary Group from December 2003 until the following July, and again from February 2005 to June 2006.

An opponent of same-sex marriage in Canada, Comuzzi resigned from cabinet on June 28, 2005, so that he could be free of a two-line party whip and oppose Bill C-38. He was eventually expelled from the Liberal caucus for pledging to support the Conservative budget on March 21, 2007. He stated that his support for the budget was due to "a single issue that's of absolute critical importance to all the people in Thunder Bay and northwestern Ontario, and that's the cancer research centre". He subsequently joined the Conservative Party on June 26 that year. On September 5, 2008, Comuzzi announced that he would retire from politics and not seek another term in the following federal election.

Personal life
Comuzzi was married to Janet M. Casgrain until her death in 2014. Together, they had four children. He died on December 31, 2021, at the age of 88.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Joe Comuzzi


text:
List of Israeli politicians

List of Israeli politicians, notable enough for Wikipedia articles.

A

 * Aharon Abuhatzera, former minister, head of the National Religious Party
 * Yosef Almogi, former minister and mayor of Haifa
 * Yigal Allon, former general, government minister
 * Shulamit Aloni, founder of Human Rights party, former minister in 1974, 1992–1996
 * Meir Amit, former general, minister, head of Mossad
 * Yehuda Amital, Rabbi, former minister without portfolio, leader of Meimad
 * Shaul Amor, former minister, candidate for presidency
 * Zalman Aran, former minister
 * Shoshana Arbeli-Almozlino, former health minister
 * Moshe Arens, former minister of defense, former ambassador to the U.S.
 * Yoram Aridor, former minister
 * Colette Avital, Israeli diplomat, former member of Knesset
 * Shmuel Avital, former minister
 * Ruhama Avraham, former MK
 * Rachel Azaria, Deputy Mayor of Jerusalem

B

 * Haim Bar-Lev, former Chief of Staff, minister, ambassador to Russia
 * Yisrael Bar-Yehuda (1895–1965), former minister, divorced from Beba Idelson
 * Ehud Barak (b. 1942), former chief of staff, Israeli Prime Minister 1999–2001
 * Moshe Baram, former minister
 * Uzi Baram, former minister, son of Moshe Baram
 * Nir Barkat, mayor of Jerusalem
 * Yisrael Barzilai, former minister
 * Benny Begin, former minister, son of Prime Minister Menachem Begin
 * Menachem Begin (1913–1992), former head of Irgun, Prime Minister 1977–1983, Nobel Peace Prize 1978
 * Yossi Beilin, former Labor party minister, leader of Meretz-Yachad
 * Yitzhak Ben-Aharon (1906–2006), former minister, former Histadrut leader
 * Shlomo Ben-Ami, former foreign affairs minister, ambassador, professor
 * Binyamin Ben-Eliezer, former defense minister
 * David Ben-Gurion (1886–1973), founder of Israel, first Prime Minister of Israel 1948–1953, 1954–1963
 * Mordechai Ben-Porat, former minister without portfolio
 * Yitzhak Ben-Zvi, second President of Israel
 * Shlomo Benizri, former minister
 * Naftali Bennett, minister of education, leader of The Jewish Home, thirteenth Prime Minister of Israel 2021-present
 * Mordechai Bentov, first minister of construction and housing
 * Yitzhak Berman, former minister, former Speaker of Knesset
 * Peretz Bernstein, former minister
 * Azmi Bishara, Arab-Israeli MP & head of Balad party
 * Victor Breilovsky, was minister of science and technology for 4 days
 * Yosef Burg, Rabbi, former minister, leader of the National Religious Party

C

 * Moshe Carmel, former party leader and army commander, former transportation minister
 * Naomi Chazan, former MK, representing Meretz, human rights activist
 * Haim Cohn, former Attorney General, former justice minister, former Supreme Court justice, former State Attorney
 * Geula Cohen, former deputy minister, founder of Tehyia party
 * Raanan Cohen, former minister of labour
 * Rachel Cohen-Kagan, chairman of WIZO, signed declaration of independence, MK
 * Ran Cohen, Knesset member for Meretz-Yachad, former minister of industry and commerce
 * Yitzhak Cohen, former minister, from Shas party
 * Yigal Cohen-Orgad, former minister
 * Ruth Colian, founder and head of the U'Bizchutan party
 * Haim Corfu, former minister

D

 * Nissim Dahan, former health minister
 * Moshe Dayan, former chief of staff, defense and foreign minister
 * Yael Dayan, former Knesset member, active feminist, deputy mayor of Tel Aviv
 * Aryeh Deri, former minister, leader of Shas party
 * Ben-Zion Dinur, former minister of education, professor
 * Sara Doron, former minister without portfolio
 * Aryeh Leib Dulchin, former minister, former chairman of Jewish Agency

E

 * Abba Eban (1915–2002), diplomat and Foreign Minister of Israel 1966–1974
 * Yuli-Yoel Edelstein, former minister of immigrant absorption
 * Rafael Edri, former minister
 * Simha Ehrlich, former finance minister
 * Effi Eitam, Israeli general, leader of the Renewed Religious National Zionist party, former minister
 * Michael Eitan, former minister of Science and Technology
 * Rafael Eitan (1929–2004), former Chief of Staff, former minister
 * Binyamin Elon, former minister, leader of Moledet party
 * Tamar Eshel, Israeli representative in several UN organizations, member of Knesset
 * Levi Eshkol, former Prime Minister of Israel 1963–1969
 * Gideon Ezra, former minister

F

 * Moshe Feiglin, Deputy Speaker of the Knesset
 * Shmuel Flatto-Sharon, MK 8th Knesset 1977-81

G

 * Yisrael Galili (1911–1986), former minister
 * Gila Gamliel, minister of senior citizens
 * Inbal Gavriely, youngest person elected to Knesset
 * Yaakov Geri, former Minister of Industry and Commerce
 * Yael German, MK
 * Akiva Govrin, former minister of Tourism
 * Tamar Gozansky, former member of Knesset for communist party
 * Yitzhak Gruenbaum, first Minister of Interior
 * Haika Grossman, member of Knesset, first woman to head of a regional council
 * Pesach Grupper, former Minister of Agriculture
 * Mordechai Gur, former Chief of Staff, former minister
 * Haim Gvati, former minister

H

 * Zevulun Hammer, former minister, leader of National Religious Party
 * Tzachi Hanegbi, member of government. Son of Geula Cohen
 * Michael Harish. former minister of industry and commerce
 * Gideon Hausner, former justice minister, attorney at the Eichmann trial
 * Yaakov Michael Hazani, former minister
 * Chaim Herzog, former general and diplomat, sixth President of Israel, born Vivian Herzog in Belfast, UK
 * Isaac Herzog, member of government, son of President Chaim Herzog
 * Shlomo Hillel, former minister, former Speaker of Knesset
 * Tzipi Hotovely, viceminister of foreign affairs
 * Yigal Hurvitz, former finance minister
 * Abba Hushi (1898–1969), politician and mayor of Haifa 1951–1969

I

 * Beba Idelson, leader of the Pioneer Women movement. Member of Knesset
 * Feige Ilanit, member of first Knesset, mother of Uri Ilan
 * Dalia Itzik, member of the government

K

 * Avigdor Kahalani, former minister of internal security 1996–1999, general
 * Meir Kahane, founder of the Kach party (subsequently banned) (assassinated)
 * Moshe Kahlon, minister of finance, leader of Kulanu
 * Eliezer Kaplan, first finance minister
 * Moshe Katsav (b. 1945), former President of Israel (2000–2007)
 * Yisrael Katz, former minister of labour (1974–1977)
 * Yisrael Katz, minister of agriculture since 2003, of Likud party
 * Berl Katznelson
 * Avraham Katz-Oz, former minister of agriculture
 * Yisrael Kessar, former Histadrut leader, minister of transportation
 * Michael Kleiner, leader of Herut
 * Moshe Kol, former minister

L

 * Haim Landau, former minister
 * Uzi Landau, former minister. Son of Haim Landau
 * Tommy Lapid, former minister of justice (2003–2004) and leader of Shinui party, Holocaust survivor
 * Yair Lapid, former minister of finance, leader of Yesh Atid, son of Tommy Lapid
 * Zipora Laskov, founder of public medicine in Israel, elected to third Knesset
 * Aliza Lavie, MK
 * Pinhas Lavon, former defense minister
 * Shalom Levin, former Sec. Gen and President of Israel Teachers union and former Knesset member
 * Yitzhak-Meir Levin, former welfare minister
 * David Levy, former foreign minister
 * Yitzhak Levy, former minister, leader of Renewed Religious National Zionist party
 * Amnon Linn politician and former Knesset member.
 * Zita Linker, founder of liberal party, member of Knesset
 * David Libai, former justice minister
 * Avigdor Lieberman, former minister
 * Amnon Lipkin-Shahak, former Chief of Staff, former tourism minister
 * Limor Livnat, member of Knesset, former minister
 * Tzipi Livni, Foreign Minister, First Vice Prime Minister (Acting Prime Minister). Daughter of Eitan Livni
 * Kadish Luz, former minister, former Speaker of Knesset

M

 * David Magen, former minister
 * Ada Maimon, former member of Knesset, pioneer of women's rights, sister of Yehuda Leib Maimon
 * Yehuda Leib Maimon, first minister of religious affairs
 * Anat Maor, former MK for Meretz 1992–2003
 * Yehoshua Matza, former health minister, today Bonds president
 * Golda Meir (1898–1978), Prime Minister of Israel 1969–1974
 * Michael Melchior, former minister, Chief Rabbi of Denmark and Norway
 * Dan Meridor, former finance and justice minister
 * Yaakov Meridor, former minister
 * Roni Milo, former minister, mayor of Tel Aviv 1993–1998
 * Binyamin Mintz, former minister of communications
 * Yitzhak Modai (1926–1998), former finance minister
 * Shaul Mofaz, Minister of Transport, former Chief of Staff, defense minister
 * Shlomo Molla, MK for Kadima and Hatnuah
 * Yitzhak Mordechai, former general, defense minister, leader of Center party

N

 * Peretz Naftali, former minister
 * Mordechai Namir, former labour minister, Histadrut leader and mayor of Tel Aviv
 * Ora Namir, former minister, widow of Mordechai Namir
 * Yehudit Naot (1944–2004), professor, former environment minister
 * Dan Naveh, Israeli minister, former Cabinet Secretary
 * Yitzhak Navon, Fifth President of Israel, former minister
 * Yaakov Neeman, former finance and justice minister
 * Yuval Ne'eman, scientist, former minister
 * Arie Nehemkin, former agriculture minister
 * Benjamin Netanyahu (b. 1949), current Likud Party leader, former minister of finance and Prime Minister of Israel 1996–1999
 * Moshe Nissim, former finance and justice minister
 * Orit Noked, former deputy minister, MK.
 * Mordechai Norok, former communications minister

O

 * Ayman Odeh, MK, head of Hadash/Jabha as of 2015, Hadash representative to Haifa City Council 1998–2005
 * Avraham Ofer, former construction and housing minister
 * Amir Ohana, first openly gay right-wing member of the Knesset
 * Asher Ohana, former minister of religious affairs
 * Ehud Olmert, former Prime Minister, May 2006–2009
 * Zevulun Orlev, former minister of welfare, leader of the National Religious Party
 * Haim Oron, former minister of agriculture and rural development

P

 * Yosef Paritzky, former minister of infrastructure, Member of Shinui
 * Gideon Pat, former minister, former President of Israel Bonds
 * Nathan Peled, former Immigrant Absorption minister
 * Shimon Peres (1923–2016), Second Vice Prime Minister, May 2006–, former defense and foreign minister, Prime Minister of Israel in 1977, 1984–1986, 1995–1996; Nobel Peace Prize 1994
 * Amir Peretz (b. 1952), Defense Minister May 2006–, Histadrut leader 1995–2005, leader of the Am Ehad party from 1997, which later merged into the Labour party (Avoda), elected to lead Avoda in November 2005
 * Yitzhak Haim Peretz, Rabbi, former minister, leader of Shas
 * Shoshana Persitz, first female MK at the head of a permanent committee
 * Ophir Pines-Paz, former Israeli minister
 * Rafael Pinhasi, former minister, member of Shas party
 * Alon Pinkas, former Consul General of Israel in the United States
 * David-Zvi Pinkas, former minister of transportation
 * Avraham Poraz, former Interior minister

R

 * Yitzhak Rabin (1922–1995), former chief of staff, Israeli Prime Minister 1974–1977, 1992–1995; assassinated
 * Dalia Rabin-Pelossof, former deputy minister. Daughter of Yitzhak Rabin
 * Yehoshua Rabinovich, former finance minister and mayor of Tel Aviv
 * Yitzhak Rafael, former minister, son-in-law of Yehuda Leib Maimon
 * Haim Ramon, former Histadrut leader, minister
 * Yoel Razvozov, MK for Yesh Atid
 * Miri Regev, minister of sport and culture
 * David Remez, former minister of transportation
 * Elimelech Shimon Rimalt, former communications minister
 * Reuven Rivlin, former communications minister 2001–2003, Speaker of Knesset
 * Yisrael Rokach, former interior minister and mayor of Tel Aviv
 * Pinchas Rosen, first justice minister
 * Shlomo Rosen, minister of immigrant absorption
 * Pnina Rosenblum, cosmetics queen and former MP.
 * Amnon Rubinstein, former minister, now dean in Law school
 * Elyakim Rubinstein, former state attorney general, now supreme court judge

S

 * Gideon Sa'ar, Knesset member, former Cabinet Secretary
 * Eliezer Sandberg, former minister
 * Tova Sanhedrai, former member of Knesset, first religious woman elected
 * Pinchas Sapir, former finance minister
 * Yosef Sapir, former minister
 * Yossi Sarid, former education minister and Knesset Member for Meretz–Yachad
 * Eliahu Sasson, former minister
 * Ze'ev Scherf, former minister
 * Gonen Segev, former minister of infrastructure
 * Yosef Serlin, former minister
 * Stav Shaffir, youngest female MK in Israeli history
 * Moshe Shahal, former minister
 * Ayelet Shaked, minister of justice
 * Avner Hai Shaki, former minister
 * Ilan Shalgi, former minister from Shinui
 * Silvan Shalom, former Israeli minister of finance and foreign affairs
 * Yitzhak Shamir (1915–2012), former head of Lehi, Prime Minister of Israel 1983–1984, 1986–1992
 * Moshe-Haim Shapira, former minister
 * Yaakov Shimshon Shapira, former minister
 * Yosef Yisrael Shapira, former minister without portfolio from the National Religious Party
 * Natan Sharansky former Soviet refusenik, head of the Yisrael B'Aliyah party, former minister.
 * Moshe Sharett (1894–1965), Prime Minister of Israel 1953–1955
 * Avraham Sharir, former justice minister
 * Ariel Sharon (1928–2014), former Prime Minister (2002–2006), general, defense minister
 * Zalman Shazar, third President of Israel, former Education minister
 * Bechor-Shalom Sheetrit, former police minister
 * Meir Sheetrit, MK, former Israeli minister, first elected to Knesset in 1981
 * Shimon Shetreet, former minister
 * Victor Shem-Tov, former health minister, Secretary General of Mapam 1979–1985
 * Avraham Shohat, former finance minister, son-in-law of Levi Eshkol
 * Eliezer Shostak, former health minister
 * Shalom Simhon, former Israeli minister
 * Efraim Sneh, former minister, general. Son of Moshe Sneh
 * Moshe Sneh (1909–1972), Israeli politician, leader of Hagana
 * Eliahu Suissa, former minister, member of Shas party

T

 * Yitzhak Tabenkin, former leader of the Kibbutz movement, namesake of Yad Tabenkin in Ramat Efal outside of Tel Aviv
 * Shmuel Tamir, former justice minister. Son of Bat-Sheva Katznelson
 * Yuli Tamir, former immigrant absorption minister 1999–2001
 * Salah Tarif, former minister, first druze in the government
 * Ahmad Tibi, MK
 * Moshe Yaakov Toledano, former religious affairs minister, chief rabbi of Tel Aviv
 * Yair Tzaban, former minister of immigrant absorption 1992–1996, aid to Moshe Sneh
 * Aharon Tzizling, former minister
 * Yaakov Tzur, former minister

U

 * Aharon Uzan, former minister
 * Uzi Eilam, ex-director of Israel's Atomic Energy Commission

V

 * Matan Vilnai, former minister, general

W

 * Zerah Warhaftig, former minister, leader of National Religious Party
 * Chaim Weizmann (1874–1952), leading Zionist and scientist, first President of Israel 1949–1952
 * Ezer Weizman, seventh President of Israel, former minister, Air Force commander

Y

 * Gad Yaacobi, former minister, ambassador to the United Nations
 * Aharon Yadlin, former minister
 * Shaul Yahalom, former transportation minister
 * Aharon Yariv, former minister, general
 * Eli Yishai, MK, former Deputy Prime Minister and leader of the Shas party
 * Yisrael Yeshayahu, former minister, former Speaker of Knesset
 * Dov Yosef, former minister
 * Giora Yoseftal, also known as Giora Josephthal, former minister, husband of Senta Josephtal
 * Senetta Yoseftal, also known as Senta Yoseftal and Senta Josephthal former political activist and member of Knesset

Z

 * Haim Joseph Zadok, former minister of justice, trade and industry
 * Rehavam Ze'evi, former general, tourism minister and founder of Moledet (assassinated in October 2001)
 * Mordechai Zipori, former general, minister, member of Irgun
 * Haneen Zoabi, MK representing the Balad party

title: List of Israeli politicians


text:
Macintyre River

The Macintyre River, a perennial river that forms part of the Border Rivers group, is part of the Barwon catchment of the Murray-Darling basin, located in the Northern Tablelands and North West Slopes regions of New South Wales, and the Southern Downs region of Queensland, Australia.

Part of the course of the river marks the border between Queensland and New South Wales.

Course and features
The Macintyre River rises on the western slopes of the Great Dividing Range, west of Guyra and south of Glen Innes, and flows generally northwest and west, joined by twenty-two tributaries, including the Severn River (New South Wales) and Dumaresq River, before reaching its confluence with the Weir River to form the Barwon River, west of Goondiwindi. In 1914, the current Goondiwindi Border Bridge was opened. It replaced a timber structure which was built in 1878. The Macintyre River descends 1040 m over its 319 km course; passing near the towns of Glen Innes, Inverell, Ashford, Yetman, and Boggabilla. The flow of the river is impounded by Boggabilla Weir.

The Macintyre River, together with Pike Creek, the Mole, Beardy, Severn (Queensland), Severn (New South Wales), and Dumaresq rivers, is part of the Border Rivers group. It was originally named the Dumaresq River by Allan Cunningham. The name Macintyre was given by Cunningham to what is now known as the Dumaresq River. Peter Macintyre was a pastoralist and land owner of Segenhoe Station in the Hunter River district.

Flooding
The Macintyre River is often affected by floods and the town of Goondiwindi is protected by levee banks that can cope with a water level rise of nearly 11 m. During the 2010–2011 Queensland floods the river peaked at 10.64 m.

Previous peaks have occurred during 1996, at 10.6 m and during 1976.

title: Macintyre River


text: User talk:68.40.60.63

title: User talk:68.40.60.63


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Concise List of Roman Emperors

Besides the bad title, why do we need this article when we have Roman Emperor? We also have List of Roman Emperors, so there are three articles, that I've found so far. RickK 06:10, Aug 3, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete the consice list; I'm undecided about the List of Roman Emperors though; it has a clearer, more detailed table format, whereas Roman Emperor has more historical notes amongst its list; perhaps the two could be merged. TPK 06:36, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Well, at least someone likes the table :) Talk:List of Roman Emperors has a discussion about keeping both Roman Emperor and List of, which is partly why it was unnecessary to add all that extra info to the List of article; perhaps this discussion should be moved there. The concise list is really unnecessary - that's what the "List of" one was before! Adam Bishop 07:17, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep at least one of the lists (Probably not the concise one); broad overviews are ad useful, albeit for different purposes, as more in-depth articles. Browsing the list is easier (I've actually spent some time doing so since this VfD brought it to my attention) when one wants just the names and dates of reigns, with links to individual emperor articles. -- orthogonal 08:11, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep the List and delete the Concise List. I found the List interesting, too, though why anyone would want to be emperor considering how many of them were murdered or suicided.... -- Arwel 11:44, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. This is part of an effort to develop a series of lists presenting the information in different ways and at different levels of detail; we don't need people to be going around trying to delete them before the work is even finished. The titles can be easily arranged once we've figured out the content. Stan 16:20, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete Concise List of Roman Emperors - keep only Roman Emporerand List of Roman Emperors -  Tεx  τ  urε  17:24, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep both as it's a work in progress. Salasks 18:51, Aug 3, 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. It's a work in progress. It might be nice if people spent just 2-3 more minutes reading to see what's up, before submitting a text to vfd. see:Talk:Concise_List_of_Roman_Emperors. The editors on the ground appear to be competent to sort things out for themselves here. Let's not interfere with them more than we have already. Kim Bruning 22:06, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Zzzzzzzzzzzz. Yawn.  Um, what?  Oh, sorry, I fell asleep in the midle of your personal attack.  RickK 04:35, Aug 5, 2004 (UTC)
 * For there to be a personal attack, first there must be a person, and then there must be an attack. :-) Kim Bruning 08:07, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * This is actually the List of Roman Emperors that has been around for a couple of years & has been worked on by yours truly. Admittedly, I don't like it's present form -- but deletion is a bit too extreme of a solution. I'm not clear on why the "Concise" version is nothing more than the table-ized List with invisible lines; can't we vote instead on keeping the original list version? -- llywrch 04:33, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * (comment) How about let's keep the lot and let people actually finish them before we even consider voting? They might even amazingly be able to tidy up behind themselves. Imagine if you'd have been vfd-d even before you'd have been able to finish the original list? :-) Kim Bruning 07:24, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Yawn. There you go again.  Boring.  RickK 04:35, Aug 5, 2004 (UTC)
 * Heh, the reaction of someone who's been caught making an obvious mistake and is unwilling to just admit it and be done with the whole thing. Stan 08:14, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * It would only be an obvious mistake if this article were still worth keeping. Since it's still delete-worthy, I stand by the posting here and still vote delete.  And you'll note that there are several others here who agree with me.  Please explain, then, how this listing is a mistake.  Enough now.  Bored again.  RickK 23:48, Aug 5, 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep List of Roman Emperors, which is (becoming) a marvellous piece of work, with lots of interesting information. Perhaps Concise List of Roman Emperors also has a right to existence (no vote on that), but if so I think they should be renamed: that should be List of Roman Emperors, and that article moved to, say, Detailed list of Roman Emperors. Also, if there should be a more concise version, I don't see why that version couldn't afford to skip the dates and just show years, like most other incumbent lists do. Makes it even more overview-ish. -- Jao 08:27, Aug 5, 2004 (UTC)
 * But that's what we had before - the Roman Emperor article was the detailed list, and List of Roman Emperors was the concise list, and now no one knows what's what. Adam Bishop 15:55, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Why is this on VfD at all? The content is significant and encyclopedic, not nonsense, not dicdef, not spam or advert. If you think it duplicates material at some other article and should be merged, then Duplicate articles is the right place, not VfD. Gdr 10:25, 2004 Aug 5 (UTC)
 * Keep both. The former is a work in progress and the latter should be seperate from the main article on the subject. -Sean Curtin 20:35, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * We don't need three levels of detail for this. Two are ample.  What's next, "Really Concise List of Roman Emperors"?  Make Concise List redirect to List.    — Chameleon Main/Talk/Images 10:30, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep everything. If i remember well: Roman Emperor is about the title; the list are lists, whats the problem of that? I think that the consise list should have just 1 name and dates and the list should have small caps. Anyway a nice job of John Armagh. Muriel G 15:23, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * keep both. I don't see a convincing reason why the lists should be deleted. Chardon


text:
Times Internet

Times Internet is an Indian multinational technology company, headquartered in Gurgaon, India which owns, operates and invests in various internet-led products, services and technology. It is the digital arm of The Times Group, the largest media conglomerate in India. Times Internet currently owns and operates 39+ digital products across news, sports, music, video, trivia, spirituality and a suite of transaction-led market-places across real estate, personal finance, education, jobs, table reservation, agri-business, etc.

Through its venture capital arm TVentures, Times Internet has invested in over 50 start-ups in the technology space such as logistics provider Delhivery, bus aggregating platform Shuttl, ed-tech platform Byju's, gaming platform MPL among others.

Times Internet reaches over 450 million monthly visitors who collectively spend over 13 billion minutes across all its products and services.

1999–2012: Initial years
In its initial years, Times Internet primarily focused on digital media—handling the online versions of The Times Group which is owned by Sahu Jain family. Some major print publications includes The Times of India, The Economic Times and Navbharat Times.

Times Internet ventured into multiple new categories with mixed success. It entered social networking and e-commerce with Indiatimes but was unable to scale the business. The company achieved success with MagicBricks, an online real estate platform launched in 2006 and iDiva, a women's lifestyle portal in 2009.

2012–2017: Early investments
Times Internet gradually transformed from a media-led company to a technology-led company. It became a conglomerate of multiple digital products, each operating independently within the group.

Times Internet made a series of acquisitions—buying majority stakes in MensXP in 2012, CricBuzz, Coupondunia and Dineout in 2014,  Taskbucks in 2015, 'The Viral Shots' and WillowTV in 2016. In 2016, it also forged a strategic alliance with Haptik, an AI-enabled chatbot service. The company launched its startup accelerator, TLabs in 2012 through which it invested in upcoming digital startups like Delhivery, Pratilipi etc.

Times Internet also launched multiple new digital products—Happy Trips in 2014, ET Money and NewsPoint in 2015. Also in 2015, Times Internet launched Samayam, a website that provides news in Tamil, Telugu and Malayalam languages. In association with HDFC Bank, it launched 'Times Points HDFC Bank Debit Card', an exclusive co-branded debit card in 2016. It also ventured into video streaming with Box TV Limited in 2012 but shut it down in 2016.

As its portfolio kept growing, Times Internet built Colombia, a full stack AI led ad-tech network that united all its digital products on one central platform. Through this platform, it was able to move and monetize users across its various digital properties, based on consumer interests and needs.

2017–2019: Continued investments
Times Internet continued to acquire and launch multiple new digital products across the consumer technology space. It launched ET Insure in February 2017, BrainBaazi in February 2018, and ET Prime in April 2018. It acquired 'House of God' in December 2017 and partnered with Tencent to invest $115 million in Gaana in February 2018.

On 28 June 2018, Times Internet acquired MX Player, the world's largest video player for $140 million.

On 20 February 2019, Times Internet re-launched MX Player as a video streaming platform, with over 100,000 hours of premium content across movies, TV and web shows etc.

On 15 April 2019, Times Internet revamped its brand identity to reflect its new "Everything. Everyday." ethos that desires to bring people closer to their interests and aspirations every day.

On 24 April 2019, Times Internet participated as a lead investor in $35.5 million (Rs 2.50 billion) Series-A funding round of Mobile Premier League (MPL).

title: Times Internet


text: User talk:68.107.127.62

title: User talk:68.107.127.62


text:
User:Oska

Contribution Diary

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Working area

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title: User:Oska


text:
User:SElefant

Glad to join the world of knowledge!

I'm from Taiwan and living in Taipei. As a frequent participant and administrator of Chinese version of Wikipedia, I wish I can also contribute my effort here, too.

de:Benutzer:SElefant fr:Utilisateur:Éléphant de natation & zh:User:SElephant

title: User:SElefant


text:
List of Jewish museums

A Jewish museum is a museum which focuses upon Jews and may refer seek to explore and share the Jewish experience in a given area.

Notable Jewish museums include:

Albania

 * Solomon Museum, Berat

Australia

 * Jewish Museum of Australia, Melbourne, Victoria
 * Sydney Jewish Museum

Austria

 * Jewish Museum Vienna
 * Austrian Jewish Museum, Eisenstadt
 * Jewish Museum of Hohenems

Belarus

 * Museum of Jewish History and Culture in Belarus

Belgium

 * Jewish Museum of Belgium

Bosnia and Herzegovina

 * Museum of the Jews of Bosnia and Herzegovina (Muzej Jevreja Bosne i Hercegovine) in Sarajevo

Brazil

 * Jewish Museum of São Paulo

Canada

 * Montreal Holocaust Museum
 * Jewish Heritage Centre (Winnipeg)
 * Saint John Jewish Historical Museum in New Brunswick

China

 * Shanghai Jewish Refugees Museum

Czech Republic

 * Jewish Museum in Prague

Denmark

 * Danish Jewish Museum, Copenhagen

France

 * Musée d'Art et d'Histoire du Judaïsme, (Museum of Jewish Art and History), Paris, and its predecessor Musée d'Art Juif
 * Musée judéo-alsacien de Bouxwiller, Bouxwiller, Bas-Rhin

Georgia

 * David Baazov Museum of History of Jews of Georgia, Tbilisi

Germany

 * Jewish Museum Berlin
 * Jewish Museum Emmendingen
 * Jewish Museum Frankfurt
 * Jewish Museum Munich

Greece

 * Jewish Museum of Greece, Athens
 * Jewish Museum of Rhodes
 * Jewish Museum of Thessaloniki

Guatemala

 * Museum of the Holocaust (Guatemala) in Guatemala City

Hungary

 * Hungarian Jewish Museum and Archives, Budapest
 * Miskolc Jewish Museum and Visitor's Center, Miskolc

Ireland

 * Irish Jewish Museum, Dublin

Italy

 * Palazzo Pannolini, Bologna
 * Synagogue of Casale Monferrato
 * Museum of Italian Judaism and the Shoah, Ferrara
 * Jewish Museum of Florence
 * Jewish Museum of Rome
 * Jewish Museum of Venice
 * Jewish Museum Carlo e Vera Wagner, Trieste

Latvia

 * Jews in Latvia (museum), Riga

Lithuania

 * Vilna Gaon Jewish State Museum (Vilnius)

Morocco

 * Moroccan Jewish Museum, Casablanca
 * Beit Yehuda Museum, Tangier

Netherlands

 * Joods Historisch Museum, Amsterdam

Norway

 * Jewish Museum in Oslo

Poland

 * Galicia Jewish Museum (Kraków)
 * POLIN Museum of the History of Polish Jews (Warsaw)
 * Warsaw Ghetto Museum
 * The Judaica collection of Maksymilian Goldstein, once an independent museum, now part of the collection of the Lviv Crafts Museum

Portugal

 * Belmonte Jewish Museum
 * Portuguese Jewish Museum

Romania

 * Jewish Museum (Bucharest)
 * Northern Transylvania Holocaust Memorial Museum
 * Muzeon - Jewish History Museum (Cluj)

Russia

 * Jewish Museum and Tolerance Center, Moscow

Serbia

 * Jewish Historical Museum, Belgrade

Slovakia

 * Museum of Jewish Culture, Bratislava

Spain

 * Palace of the Forgotten, Granada
 * Sephardic Museum (Granada)
 * Sephardic Museum, Toledo

Sweden

 * Jewish Museum of Sweden

Switzerland

 * Jewish Museum of Switzerland, Basel

Turkey

 * Jewish Museum of Turkey, Istanbul

Ukraine

 * Museum of the History of Odesa Jews, Odesa
 * Museum of Jewish History and the Holocaust in Ukraine in Menorah center, Dnipro.

United Kingdom

 * Jewish Museum London, England
 * Manchester Jewish Museum, England

United States

 * Jewish History Museum (Tucson), Tucson, Arizona
 * Magnes Collection of Jewish Art and Life, Berkeley, California
 * Contemporary Jewish Museum, San Francisco, California
 * The Museum of the Southern Jewish Experience, New Orleans, Louisiana
 * Jewish Museum of Maryland, Baltimore, Maryland
 * Jewish Children's Museum, Brooklyn, New York
 * Herbert & Eileen Bernard Museum of Judaica at Congregation Emanu-El of New York, Manhattan, New York
 * Jewish Museum (Manhattan), Manhattan, New York
 * Museum of Jewish Heritage, Manhattan, New York
 * National Museum of American Jewish History, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
 * Lillian & Albert Small Capital Jewish Museum Washington DC
 * Jewish Museum Milwaukee, Milwaukee, Wisconsin
 * William Breman Jewish Heritage & Holocaust Museum, Atlanta, Georgia

title: List of Jewish museums


text:
Benzyl alcohol

Benzyl alcohol (also known as α-cresol) is an aromatic alcohol with the formula C6H5CH2OH. The benzyl group is often abbreviated "Bn" (not to be confused with "Bz" which is used for benzoyl), thus benzyl alcohol is denoted as BnOH. Benzyl alcohol is a colorless liquid with a mild pleasant aromatic odor. It is a useful as a solvent for its polarity, low toxicity, and low vapor pressure. Benzyl alcohol has moderate solubility in water (4 g/100 mL) and is miscible in alcohols and diethyl ether. The anion produced by deprotonation of the alcohol group is known as benzylate or benzyloxide.

Natural occurrences
Benzyl alcohol is produced naturally by many plants and is commonly found in fruits and teas. It is also found in a variety of essential oils including jasmine, hyacinth and ylang-ylang. It is also found in castoreum from the castor sacs of beavers. Benzyl esters also occur naturally.

Preparation
Benzyl alcohol is produced industrially from toluene via benzyl chloride, which is hydrolyzed:
 * C6H5CH2Cl + H2O → C6H5CH2OH + HCl

Another route entails hydrogenation of benzaldehyde, a by-product of the oxidation of toluene to benzoic acid.

For laboratory use, Grignard reaction of phenylmagnesium bromide (C6H5MgBr) with formaldehyde and the Cannizzaro reaction of benzaldehyde also give benzyl alcohol. The latter also gives benzoic acid, an example of an organic disproportionation reaction.

Reactions
Like most alcohols, it reacts with carboxylic acids to form esters. In organic synthesis, benzyl esters are popular protecting groups because they can be removed by mild hydrogenolysis.

Benzyl alcohol reacts with acrylonitrile to give N-benzylacrylamide. This is an example of a Ritter reaction:

 * C6H5CH2OH + NCCHCH2 → C6H5CH2N(H)C(O)CHCH2

Applications
Benzyl alcohol is used as a general solvent for inks, waxes, shellacs, paints, lacquers, and epoxy resin coatings. Thus it can be used in paint strippers, especially when combined with compatible viscosity enhancers to encourage the mixture to cling to painted surfaces.

It is a precursor to a variety of esters and ethers, used in the soap, perfume, and flavor industries. E.g. benzyl benzoate, benzyl salicylate, benzyl cinnamate, dibenzyl ether, benzyl butyl phthalate.

It can be used as a local anesthetic, especially with epinephrine.

As a dye solvent, it enhances the process of dying wool, nylon, and leather.

Use in health care
Benzyl alcohol is used as a bacteriostatic preservative at low concentration in intravenous medications, cosmetics, and topical drugs. Some caution is necessary if a high percent of benzyl alcohol is used as benzaldehyde arises from benzyl alcohol when used as preservative in an injectable formulation solution.

Benzyl alcohol, sold under the brand name Ulesfia, was approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) in 2009, as a 5% solution for the treatment of head lice in people 6 months of age and older. It affects the louse's spiracles, preventing them from closing. These then become clogged with water or mineral oil or other matter and cause the insect to die from asphyxiation.

Benzyl alcohol is used effectively for treating lice infestations as the active ingredient in lotion shampoo with 5% benzyl alcohol.

Benzyl alcohol is an ingredient used in the manufacture of soaps, topical creams, skin lotions, shampoos, and facial cleansers and is popular due to its anti-bacterial and anti-fungal properties. It is a common ingredient in a variety of household products.

Safety
Sensitization to benzyl alcohol occurs very rarely, mainly in patients with stasis dermatitis.

Benzyl alcohol is not considered to be a carcinogen, and no data are available regarding teratogenic or reproductive effects.

Benzyl alcohol has low acute toxicity with an of 1.2 g/kg in rats. It oxidizes rapidly in healthy individuals to benzoic acid, conjugated with glycine in the liver, and excreted as hippuric acid. Very high concentrations can result in toxic effects including respiratory failure, vasodilation, hypotension, convulsions, and paralysis.

Benzyl alcohol is toxic to neonates and is associated with the gasping syndrome.

title: Benzyl alcohol


text:
Talk:Modern Library

Recent changes
Mention of the Modern Library rankings/ lists (except the reader's lists) has been removed for the reasons outlined here and also at User talk:Gamaliel (notably that it was mostly commercial, disapproved by voting board members themselves, and does not deserve more attention than other lists). The category will be retained however, and everyone is welcome to add the nearly 400 titles on the 4 lists to the category, without mentioning the publisher in the main body of the article. Thank you for your co-operation.

If editors want to convey a sense of the importance of the work or the writer, it is recommended that they insert comments by notable peers or critics, which is the more encyclopedia-like. Please remember that the ML list was made in retrospect and was not a contemporaneous award, which means that sufficient recognition already existed for the works before their selection.

 * Why not eliminate mentions of the reader's lists too? It's just some web poll made even more ridiculious by mass voting by Scientologists and Randites. Gamaliel 02:50, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * I guess, but they occur on few pages and they are, after all "reader's lists" - so they clearly tell us more about the readers rather than the books, while the other list tries to do otherwise, IMO. -- Simonides 03:50, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Advertising
I'm tired of seeing the Modern Library's "100 Best Novels/ Non-fiction titles" mentioned on every article related to the list. The list was a marketing gimmick and is not an award or a critical evaluation - members of the board were themselves not aware of the ranking system and Random House themselves stated (sourced at article) that the list was partly meant to boost sales of their own stocklist (further it's ethnocentric and sexist and only lists novels in English): please stop mentioning it as if it were a literary standard - it isn't. If this doesn't sound annoying to you, consider mentioning a list of Best Films Of All Time drawn up by, say, Walt Disney corp., that mostly lists Walt Disney-funded films, admittedly ones that may have been popular all around the world, on every article related to the list and other film related articles as if it were an achievement - I think we can agree such lists are somewhat irrelevant. -- Simonides 22:32, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * I've been working on the Modern Library categories. Perhaps it is merely a marketing gimmick, but it's the most famous and important marketing gimmick of its type, one that is frequently referred to.  And I don't think it's anymore ethnocentric than, say, the Booker Prize.  Gamaliel 06:33, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Actually the Booker has already addressed charges that is too narrow, see --[[User:Bodnotbod| b o d not b o d      ......TALK Q uietly ) ]] 07:08, Jul 28, 2004 (UTC)
 * Wow, Bodnotbod, you have a lot of code after your name.
 * Gamaliel, I am the easiest person to convince that the Booker Prize has only incidental merit as a literary award. However, an award is what it is: it comes with clauses or a history of rigid formulaic nominations (ex. Oscars) or does not have pretensions of universal significance. The Modern Library ranking though, is an arbitrary, one-off list that does have such pretensions (while clearly failing to meet them), and yet proclaims itself a transparently commercial tactic. The voters themselves have expressed disappointment and confusion over the list. Random House isn't an institute or critical body after all, it's a business, and businesses restrict themselves to activities that ensure profit one way or another. Random House is welcome to creating and publicizing such lists, but I think we as encyclopedia editors should be cautious about slimming the line between a methodical and genuine if weak attempt to recognize achievement - ex. the AFI 100, Sight & Sound Poll, etc. - and what is essentially product placement. -- Simonides 08:04, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Are there problems with the list? No doubt. Is it a marketing gimmick? Yes, but so are the Oscars (Titanic? Please.) and the Grammys, and in their own way, the Modern Library lists are a more sincere and accurate way or recognizing genuine achievement. Have other people done it better? Sure.  The AFI lists (which I have also been categorizing here) are perhaps one example, though I have plenty of problems with them too.  But the core issue is: Is the list significant enough to mention on wikipedia?  Given the attention and popularity of it, I say yes. The Modern Library covers the controversies and issues many people have had with these lists, as it should.  Gamaliel 14:51, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Most of the awards mentioned are at least recognized internationally; the same cannot be said of the Modern Library - it may be well known in the US, and perhaps Canada, but not really in the UK, Australia and other places where their titles are not even that widely available. While the Oscars are a Hollywood promotion event, they are at least industry- or nation-wide; the Modern Library is a single publisher publicizing mostly its own list - akin to Criterion publishing a list of best movies based on its own backlist (a better example than the Walt Disney one above.) So I really don't think the list should be mentioned at all; but since you are keen to have it, let's adopt one of the suggestions mentioned on your user page. -- Simonides 06:17, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I hear a lot of people blasting the ML list. But it's really quite a good one. I took it upon myself to read the whole thing and did, except for the Henry James and Finnegan's. Kim, the Moviegoer, To the Lighthouse, the Secret Agent I didn't like much. Dashiell Hammett I didn't like. USA I thought should be #1. People just make generalizations about the list, like: no Australians? (what Australian books should be on the list?). More women! (there ARE quite a few good ones up there, and its the VERY TOP weren't talking about.) Nobody should knock the list if they haven't read at least half of it, and I really doubt all these critics have. 67.160.174.24 (talk) 10:56, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Opposition
It's a well-known list, and I looked it over again this afternoon and I think it's a pretty damn good list, all things considered. I'm gonna stick back the reference to it in the John O'Hara article, and I'll thank you to leave it alone. Hayford Peirce 04:46, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Of course it's a great list. So are the stocklists of the Penguin Classics, the Vintage Classics, the Harvill Press, Flamingo Classics, the Vintage International series, Quartet Books, the Oxford World's Classics, the Routledge Classics, the Eridanos Library, Harvest Books, the Everyman Library, and so on. The writers and the books in question, however, have enough merit not to need corporate backing; to imply otherwise is actually quite demeaning; and if we have to mention the Modern Library there's no reason why we should stop there and not name all the other great series - would you be willing to add it all? -- Simonides 05:22, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * By all means, replace them with references on more authoritative or more NPOV lists. They are there as objective evidence of a book's importance. If they can be improved--e.g. if a book as won a Pulitzer or a National Book Award there's no need to mention the Modern Library list as well--but they shouldn't just be removed. That's silly. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 14:01, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * It's not objective at all. Read Modern Library and the above. -- Simonides 18:28, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Modern Library's list is not objective. The determination of whether a book is on Modern Library's list is quite objective. See Npov:
 * "What people believe is a matter of objective fact, and we can present that quite easily from the neutral point of view." -- Jimbo Wales, Wikipedia founder.
 * Presence on the Modern Library list is objective evidence of the beliefs held by Modern Library's editors, who, I would maintain, are people knowledgeable about books.
 * "it is important indeed how some artist or some work has been received by the general public or by prominent experts."
 * Again, Modern Library editors are surely "experts"

 * Before I begin, it should be pointed out that literature is not a competition - all lists that indicate otherwise should be avoided, and personal lists in my opinion pose no such threat. Now your objections - if you read the links in the article, you will see that books were picked from a pre-selected pool. Secondly, most of the members are likely voracious readers and some are famous writers, but I doubt any of them can be called "experts" in the way a biologist can be an expert - a literary expert is merely someone who has surveyed a vast body of literature and is familiar with the details, and has authoritative opinions on specific questions, but does not have any more say on the importance of specific works of literature than your average well-read person. S/he is very likely, in fact, to have opinions coloured by specific, even objectionable, cultural, political, etc. beliefs. For instance Bloom, that popularising self-important git, whose arguments are easily countered by contrary criticism. Finally, if the Modern Library editors are indeed so knowledgeable about books - speaking in terms of qualitative analysis, not quantitative, which any diligent fool is capable of - one wonders why they would even bother with such trivialities. The first thing a person interested in literature or in the arts knows is that any attempt at quantitative reduction is futile, misses the point of actually experiencing and thinking about a work, and is fun and whimsical at best, idiotic at worst. This list is so puerile in its estimation of literature it verges on the idiotic - in my opinion, of course. -- Simonides 04:14, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Stubborn Error
Here's an edit that needs to be made, and I don't know how to do it. In the list, under the "M" novels, it lists Modern Library. Whether or not this list is a vulgar marketing ploy or a useful reading list (probably a little of both), we can agree that Modern Library is not the name of one of the greatest novels of the 20th century. But when I click "Edit This Page," the list doesn't come up for me to make this simple deletion. Bds yahoo 04:51, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * I put it the Modern Library article in the category because I thought it was relevant to the category. If you think it's important to remove it, I'm not going to quibble, but that's my reasoning. Gamaliel 05:04, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Request for Vote
Proposal: "With regard to citation of the Modern Library lists in articles about books, for the purpose of indicating notability or worth, in cases where the editor agrees that the book actually is notable or worthy:
 * The Modern Library's "Best" lists are not perfectly neutral, nor are other lists, nor are prizes and awards.
 * Nevertheless, presence on such lists or reception of such prizes, while not proof of notability or worth, is evidence of notability or worth.
 * Because of its association with a single commercial enterprise, the Modern Library lists present a unique problem which the National Book Awards, Pulitzer prizes, Booker prizes, Newbery and Caldecott medals, presence on New York Times bestseller lists, etc. do not.
 * Therefore, as an indication of merit, citation of other lists or prizes, or use of other forms of evidence, is preferable.
 * When appropriate, editors may replace citation of a Modern Library list with other evidence bearing on merit or notability.
 * Editors should not simply remove such a citation, leaving nothing in its place, because citation of the Modern Library list is better than an unsubstantiated assertion of the book's merit. Such a citation should only be removed when the editor who is removing them can replace them with superior evidence.

Please indicate your vote below. Add comments as necessary. Add choices other than "Agree" or "Disagree" as necessary. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 23:23, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Agree
 * 1) [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 22:24, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * 2) Hayford Peirce 23:11, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * 3) This seems like a reasonable compromise. Gamaliel 02:52, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * 4) Yes, this seems basically OK.  I don't think anybody would claim that the ML list is vastly authoritative or prestigious.  But it's a moderately interesting factoid and I don't think it hurts any article to include it. RivGuySC 04:47, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Disagree
 * 1) I agree entirely with Simonides. Whether Ullysses has been recommended by some publisher's marketing department is not among the thousand most notable things about the novel. It's fine to have an article about the list, but it is not Wikipedia's job to do a publisher's marketing for them. Gdr 08:49, 2004 Aug 17 (UTC)

Further comments
Polls are not the best way to resolve disagreements, especially when there is still plenty of room for discussion. Like the lists, they suggest an issue is best reduced to black and white.

Now, I do not think the Modern Library lists belong at all in the articles, any more than the Norwegian Book Club's top 100 books of all time - a very broad list compiled by 100 writers from 54 countries which is far more inclusive and interesting, or Sybervision's list of 100 greatest (ie a list of its audio books on CD) or Queneau's Bibliothèque idéale, or the lists drawn up by others he requested, or the list of 100 books that influenced Henry Miller most, or Bernard Pivot's list (Pivot was a very famous TV host in France who read widely and presented a highly respected weekly/or so show for 28 years that discussed politics, literature and culture; he often had Solzhenitsyn, Woody Allen, and other famous personalities as guests) or the BBC Big Read or maybe Waterstone's list (Waterstone's is the biggest bookstore chain in the UK); but if you want to stick to "knowledgeable publishers", why stop with the Modern Library - how about The Franklin Library, which claimed to published the 100 Greatest Books Of All Time, or all the titles in the Great Books of the Western World series, a series suggested by a "philosopher"?

All of which ignores the main point. Which is that we can do without these lists, and we probably do more credit to literature and to writers as a whole, and also to the likes of Borges or Proust, who neither won Nobels nor appear on the Modern Library rankings, by discussing them on their own grounds rather than trivialising their works to some arbitrary signs of recognition. And some of the ML works are far less important than the thousands of great historical or non-Anglo works that don't have similar awards or lists to recommend them, and are not even known to the average English-speaking reader, because they are too difficult or not popular enough and don't appear in the usual bookstores - mostly works for which "unsubstantiated assertion" is indeed the best one can offer. If you are desperate for "evidence", quote specific peers - ex. Burgess said "Everyone knows Ulysses is the greatest novel...etc."; if you can't find any, wait till you do. Don't insert misleading material that smacks of parochialism, merely for the saking of adding something. No information is indeed better than unsatisfactory information. -- Simonides 05:10, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Replies

 * I agree with many of your points, but I also think that many of those points are irrelevant. Most especially irrelevant is your contention that the list snubbed Proust and Borges, as the list is clearly a list of 20th century novels written in English. Gamaliel 05:34, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Maybe you misunderstood the points - especially the unstated but implied one about why one should favour 20th century English language writers at all, instead of (say) all the valuable 20th century Czech, Russian or Japanese literature out there (Biely's Petersburg prefigures, in many ways, Joyce's Ulysses to use only one example; I would gladly sacrifice several Bellows for one Kawabata, and so on.). -- Simonides 05:59, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * You could just as easly say the list snubbed Charles Dickens, Homer, or Mickey Mouse, as none of them fall within the scope of the list either. In the end, I personally think the lists are harmless fun which do nothing to trivalize literature and may prompt people to read things on the list, as it prompted me to recently read Tobacco Road. Gamaliel 05:34, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Great - that's why the (Americentric) category has been retained. We could do with more such categories though. -- Simonides 05:59, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * And certainly the ML list is more useful and accurate than those nonsensical reader polls which inevitably list Tolkien, Ayn Rand, and L. Ron Hubbard near the top. Gamaliel 05:34, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Actually, no. Both lists reflect the interests and background of the voters; the nature of a "reader's poll" itself suggests that a larger number of Americans are more likely to be sympathetic to the latter list than the former - meaning that in defining a canon one frequently chooses a minority consensus over a majority consensus for personal, not objective, reasons. -- Simonides 05:59, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * What is most relevant to our discussion here is our mission on Wikipedia, and whatever our opinion on lists of these types, it isn’t relevant to determining whether or not the lists deserve mentioning in particular articles.
 * Really? Why choose the Modern Library list over the other, equally useful, lists I mentioned then - who exactly decides what deserves mention, publisher's advertisers? Our "mission" is to write as accurate and sensitive (ie NPOV) articles as possible; mention of the ML list sort of goes against that. -- Simonides 05:59, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * My personal judgement is that ideally, in a complete article of decent length, enough information about a novel’s or author’s critical reception and literary importance will be available to render mentioning the list irrelevant. Gamaliel 05:34, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes, but it should be the default case anyway. -- Simonides 05:59, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * However, I also feel that mentioning the list can provide a useful shorthand for stubs and shorter articles which lack that necessary information, which is why I replaced it in the Elizabeth Bowen stub. So that’s why I favor the compromise offered above.  Gamaliel 05:34, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Let me paraphrase: believing the Earth is flat because it's the best I can establish from my available perspective and resources and sticking to the belief by citing my lack of resources is just not good enough; it's preferable to wait until I have more reliable information, even something I can't always test myself. Until that time it's also better not to spread what I believe is true. In this case, mention of peer criticism, or anything as specific, is still preferable - there are tons of stubs on Wikipedia, many about writers or books that are immensely important but which do not have the above publicity (see the embarrassing article on Gustave Flaubert), and there is no real reason to mention it when the ML category has been retained, which imo is an adequate compromise. -- Simonides 05:59, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Simonides, I agree that citing the Modern Library list is a) lazy and b) problematical, and that there should usually be better alternatives and that editors should try to find them.

Are you willing to agree that when a book actually is notable, and when an editor cites the Modern Library list as evidence of notability, that

 * that's better than saying nothing in regard to the book being notable?
 * that's better than using an true but unsubstantiated POV remark about the book's notability?

If so, removing such a citation without replacing it with something better makes the article worse, not better.

If you don't agree, are you at least willing to acknowledge that others do, and that among those editors who have bothered to respond to my request for voting, there is a rough working consensus? [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 18:42, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * A resounding no to all three points. 1) & 2) As I explained above, saying nothing is better than saying something misleading. And are you really saying that when a major writer is "significant" enough to appear on the ML list, that you simply can't say anything about the writer without falling back on the list?
 * No, I am not saying that. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 12:25, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Aren't you begging the question there? Wouldn't it improve the article not to just plug in some ranking but look up some critic's mention of the work?
 * Of course it would. If you were replacing mentions that some book has appeared on some list with critical citations or quotations from contemporary reviews, I'd applaud. But that's not what you're doing. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 12:25, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Smith, I removed all the ML mentions at one stretch, rather mechanically, but it was tedious and took me well over an hour (you can check my contributions page.) That's why I didn't think to replace them, but I thought the main article contributors would simply plump in and add something else instead - of course that hasn't happened yet. Note however that I agreed to let Gamaliel keep mention of the list on the Bowen article because she is an important writer and the article doesn't sufficiently indicate that; but I am against systematically reverting the articles again, which is what my argument is about. Almost all my edit remarks referred editors to this page so hopefully they will read it and replace ML mention with something better. I can also modify the top announcement to request this. But simply re-inserting the ML phrases is, for all the reasons above, unsatisfactory. -- Simonides 18:24, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Systematic reversion or reinsertion of the old notices would be dumb. That's in my humble opinion. I certainly don't plan to do anything like that. For the record, I wasn't the anon who originally inserted the overly-long and overly-deferential notices. From what you say about the Elizabeth Bowen article, can I take it that you are not completely opposed to the selective mention of the Modern Library List in a few articles by specific authors? As for "plumping and adding something else instead," I sort of thought that's what I had done on the Jack London page when I inserted a mention of two different lists to replace the mention of the Modern Library list. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 22:29, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * And why do you keep evading the point I make above with reference to historical writers who have no such commercial promotion behind them? Ex. Vogelweide, Grimmelshausen, Chrétien de Troyes, etc etc all far more remarkable in the history of literature than some of the people mentioned above - or if you want to stick to the 20th century, writers like Antal Szerb or Bohumil Hrabal about whom there is very little info in English, but are much more important to their language & culture than some of the above writers. How does one convey a sense of proportion? Obviously, one falls back on generalisations. Even unsubstantiated ones. The bigger picture, as I said before, is that there can be no objective reductions of the worth of literature AND that literature is not a competition; but if you want to make it appear like one, you have to be able to justify all the contradictions I am pointing out, which of course no one can (unless you resort to reactionary comments.) 3) Wikipedia is not a democracy. If you're editing an article on a politician written by a group of supporters, you are likely to come up against majority consensus which has little regard for NPOV - going by consensus is clearly not a satisfactory process there.
 * What I'm asking you to do is step out of your own shoes for a sec and think from the viewpoint of a non-American reading the site. They don't much care for or know about the Modern Library, their libraries don't advertise it to promote better literacy, their bookstores don't carry many of the ML imprints, they probably wouln't buy those often overpriced dinosaurs anyway (Helene Hanff - American writer - had something amusingly condescending to say about ML, and that was back in the 50s or so), and they might even be pissed to see such a skewed selection; and if they take an interest in the list they'll realise it's just another typical feel good marketing campaign, and snicker at the "encyclopedia editors" who fall for this stuff - so how does that "improve" the article, or the image of Wikipedia? -- Simonides 04:16, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Quite honestly, if I were reading an article about, say, Miles Franklin, and it happened to say that My Brilliant Career had been chosen by the marketing department of Angus and Robertson as one of the fifty greatest Australian novels of all time, it would mean something to me. Maybe I'd want the article to briefly Angus and Robertson as a commercial bookstore chain, though. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 22:48, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Authors versus books
I entered this discussion by way of having references to the Modern Library list deleted from two pages about authors, namely Jack London and John O'Hara. Do I take it that the outcome of previous discussions was a general consensus that in articles about individual books, inclusion of the Modern Library 100 Best Novels category is generally acceptable to everyone, as a replacement for mentioning the list within the text of the article itself?

 * Yes. -- Simonides 13:50, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

lists
Is it just me, or does it seem like far too much of this article concerns itself with the lists? Modern Library is a publishing imprint, not a list. Most of the list material ought to go into its own article. john k 19:22, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Modern Library


text:
Skjold

Skjold may refer to:

Places

 * Skjold, Bergen, a neighborhood in Bergen municipality in Vestland county, Norway
 * Skjold, Rogaland, a village in Vindafjord municipality in Rogaland county, Norway
 * Skjold (municipality), a former municipality in Rogaland county, Norway
 * Skjold, Troms, a village in Målselv municipality in Troms county, Norway
 * Skjold (garrison), a Norwegian army garrison in Målselv municipality in Troms county, Norway

Other uses

 * Skjöld or Skjöldr, a king in Norse mythology
 * Skjold-class corvette, a Norwegian class of patrol boats
 * Skjold (ship), a Danish three mast barque built in 1839
 * BK Skjold, a Danish football team
 * Skjold oil field, an oil field in the Danish sector of the North Sea

title: Skjold


text:
Talk:List of Germanic and Latinate equivalents in English

Why only Old High German?
Why only Old High German? Wouldn't it be helpful to add Gothic, or Old English, or reconstructed proto-Germanic?--172.209.172.236 06:21, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * Well, Gothic isn't directly related to English as it's an East Germanic language, and English is West Germanic. I just chose OHG as I believe it's the closest predecessor of (Old) English and the root words are in my dictionary of etymology. Proto-Germanic would be a good idea, if you have the root words and know how to make the symbols, the same for Old English. The only trouble might be that the list could get hard to read. (Does anyone know how to add colour to columns?) Anyway, go ahead and add whatever you have.

 * The Latinate side could also be improved by adding French, of course, that being where a lot of the Latinate English words come from. I didn't add it because of the problem of clarity, with all those same-coloured columns. Saintswithin 12:28, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * But OHG is not a predicessor of Old English either, I mean it might be found earlier, but it's not a direct ancestor, more of a cousin. So I agree with the anonymous comment: we should be using Old English or Proto-Germanic. Heck, even Gothic would be better than OHG: it's not as closely related to English, but it is extremely close to Proto-Germanic. Some day when I have more time, I may "be bold" and edit this myself. --Iustinus 22:41, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * True, the words come to English from French, but I think the Latin roots are better. After all, what could be more Latinate than Latin?  I think the Latin is somehow "purer".  But then, I'm quite partial, as I haven't studied French and am thus against it. :-) -- 66.44.3.209 02:39 17 Aug 2005 (UTC)

 * Actually, most of the romance words in English come from Norman French, abit removed from French (especially modern French). Then there is another grouping of Latinate words which came in via the Grammar school boys (Grammar schools of the late medieval being schools which taught latin grammar, and which required students to speak grammar at all times), and the ecclesiastical coinages, from around the same period (late Tudor England onwards). The first lot, the Norman French, had a rather different historical journey from the second lot, the second lot being rather closer to Classical Latin (actually most are Church or Medieval latin, but the difference here is not so great). The Norman French borrowings have a little more fanciness than regular Germanic English because Norman French was the language of the English ruling class (and law etc) for about 300 years. Most the food words come through this path. The second group (borrowed in from about 1400 to 1700) are fancy not so much because they represent the ruling classes, but because they represent learning. Then there's a few other words which come in from other places, like /piano/ (from Italtian), and others which are similar because they actually come from a common germanic/italic root even a proto-Indo-European root.

 * I think that it would be worth noting the path of derivation (NF vs Latin vs other).

 * On a second related point, the Germanic in English comes from several dialects, from both the North Germanic group (Norse) and the West Germanic. Old English had a few differing dialects. Northern English dialects tend to have a little more Norse and a little less Anglo-saxon, than the south-east. There are Norse and Saxon cognates which both made it into English, skirt and shirt being the famous examples. So, again some more information regarding the exact derivation of the Germanic, unless someone wants to go the whole hog and put in the proto-Germanic reconstructions. But that probably cannot be done.58.107.79.77 14:17, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Give - Donate, Hear - Audio, See - Video, Write - Scribe, Food - Cuisine, Read - Literature maybe...

"Throw" is not a good example, since it originally meant "turn", "Warp" would be better, I think...=S

"Nostalgic/Homesick"
I don't speak English as a first language, but I speak Portuguese, which is Latin-derived, and I have a very good comprehension of it. It's absolutely clear, the way I see it, that many words used as examples in those columns may come from similar "intentions" or "feelings", but do NOT mean the same at all.

The most fragrant example is "homesick x nostalgic": one refers to a distant place present, and the other to a distant time in any given place. They are absolutely different in their meanings, as you can't say you are "nostalgic" when away from home for a few months or "homesick" because you remember a time past and maybe wanted to be back then. It's very much a "apples and oranges" example.

There are others, but I don't mean to put myself into a discussion about a language that's not my own.

 * Of course what you are talkign about isnt' the meaning of the words in Portuguese or Latin, but in English. You do have a point. In fact, most of these words do have subtle or not-so-subtle differences in meaning: English (like other languages) tends to come up with distinctions when two words basically mean the same thing, whether or not there was a distinction previously. In its original use, "nostalgic" did mean "homesick" but they've grown apart (and I bet they miss each other!)
 * But even so, I don't see a need to change the chart. We've got a mix of words that didn't mean the same thing in Latin and Old English, but do in Modern English, and words that did mean the same thing in L and OE but don't quite mean the same thing now. Both types are of interest to me, at least. --Iustinus 22:02, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * The article doesn't claim that the meanings are the same, just that the words are connected. Here's the entry for "nostalgia" at dictionary.com:
 * nos·tal·gi·a   ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (n-stlj, n-)n.
 * 1.A bittersweet longing for things, persons, or situations of the past.
 * 2.The condition of being homesick; homesickness.
 * The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Saintswithin 11:19, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

(The original Portuguese-speaker of the first comment) Thanks to both for your replies. Through them, I could understand the intentions behind the list, as it refers to roots and not necessarily to current meanings. You made it clear and you're right on that. Turns out the entry was removed anyway for not even being Latin... Just for general information, we use the word "nostalgia" in Portuguese too, and on a daily basis, meaning "the missing of better times that are now gone" or something like this.

Nostalgic removed
Here is the row I've removed from the article:

The word nostalgic has nothing to do with Latin: it's a pure-blooded Greek coinage.

Adam78 16:37, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Produce"
Re: Old Norse geta + Gmc *ut get out produce pro- + ducere

Adam, you asked if this should be "pull out". Well, "ducere" actually means "lead", so literally, "produce" means "lead out". I don't think "get out" is really the equivalent of "produce", but neither is "pull out" - how about "lead forth", "bring out" or "draw out"? "produce (v.) 1499, from L. producere "lead or bring forth, draw out," from pro- "forth" + ducere "to bring, lead" http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=produce&searchmode=none Saint|swithin

"Corporal/Corporeal"
While both corporal and corporeal can be used to indicate something 'of the body' (i.e. derived from latinate corpus), I cannot say I have come across non-root usages without the additional 'e'. Corporal has a number of different meanings that muddle its usage here a bit, esp. corporal punishment, which might seem to indicate that the word could be taken to mean 'of the body, particularly that of a child'. Whereas corporeal (at least I believe) is relatively unambiguous. Just searching one versus the other on WP gives the military use of 'corporal', but the intended use for corporeal, and a quick search of Google brings up six pages that are utilizing different meanings of the word. Granted, there is a full context surrounding the word as to its intended use here, but for demonstrative purposes corporal is usually only used in this sense as an alternate root for corporeal in more complex ideas (e.g. corporal mortification of Opus Dei, or corporally weakened vis-a-vis corporeally weakened).Jay the Despicable 08:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

"Gift"
I am seriously thinking of deleting that entire line, because Gift is nowhere near our English 'gift'. It means poison, giftmull is toxic waste, giftzahn (poison tooth) is fang. source: Collins Germ:  German Dictionary   Collins Germ, imprint of Harper Collins, copyright 2000. I wanted to use a better dictionary, but that is what is at hand, and it seems a basic usage. It seems that the original compiler specified that words change meanings over time.

I have sent this list to others in order to help them find synonyms, and I happened on this as I was looking to refresh my German for a trip. I saw 'Gift' glaring out at me, and that was a word that I remembered--it was an important word to rememember, where other words could be forgotten. And it is not a good thing to go into a drugstore/chemist and ask for poison,when one really wanted a small present for the girl next door. Katydidn't 08:49, 2 July 2007 (UTC)katydidn't

Gmc *giftiz gift present prae- + essere Katydidn't 09:12, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

 * The word "gift", with a small "g", is the modern English word with Germanic roots synonymous with the Latin-rooted word "present". The word "*giftiz" on the left is a reconstruction of the Germanic word that our "gift" is thought to have developed from. The page title and explanation make it clear that the word on the left is the etymology and not a translation. There is no suggestion that the modern German word "Gift" means the same as the modern English word "gift".
 * You might like to know that actually, the modern German word "Gift" comes from the same source, Middle High German gift which really did mean a gift; the modern meaning is a semantic loan (Lehnbedeutung), borrowing the meaning of the Ancient Greek word dosis, literally a "gift of medicine". The meaning as in English is retained, incidentally, in the modern German word Mitgift, a dowry. Saint|swithin

Macrons
I added vowels w/ macrons to indicate long vowels in Germanic and Latin. Latin's long vowels come from a Latin-English dictionary I have. I also modified at least Germanic words to correlate w/ the latest etymologies presented at http://www.bartleby.com/61/IEroots.html from the American Heritage Dictionary, fourth edition. Note that voiced stops and fricatives, such as d and ð, are allophones of the same phoneme, /d/, in Germanic. As a result that should be spelt as such despite occasionally giving different representations in later Germanic languages.
 * Now they are no longer visible on non-Unicode compliant browsers. Is there any HTML way to display a macron, sort of how &eacute; will display an accent-marked "e"?  (And I don't mean the &unicode-number-here;)  That way, maybe it will display semi-correctly on w3m.  I'll look into this.  -- 66.44.3.209, 18:38, 17 Aug 2005 (UTC)

 * A good example with no connotative difference that I am aware of is hawk/falcon (FR:faucon). --belg4mit 71.192.58.23 16:45, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Norse
Do we have some sort of List of English and Norse equivalents in the English lexicon, such as shell=skull, shirt=skirt etc.? dab (ᛏ) 12:03, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
 * numb=taken, wort=root, warp/throw=cast, hide=skin, heaven=sky, shear=score etc. A problem here, as well, is that many of the original English words have been removed or shifted in meaning. 81.232.72.148 23:03, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * wrath=anger, starve=die, wave=billow, bridegroom=husband (The list is still a big mess of words' modern and original meanings...) 81.232.72.148 23:14, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I think these last two posts have missed the point that dab (ᛏ) was making. (Shirt/skirt) and (shell/skull) same the same etymological roots.  The wave/billow-type examples share semantic meaning, but not a common etymological root.  I think both types of lists have merit and I would contribute to both, but it's important to keep the two lists separate.--Hraefen 22:13, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
 * OK, I thought he wanted a similar list as this one. In this list, the examples are quite mixed, though. I can spot a few cognates going back to the same root, although the main bulk seems to be unrelated:

brotherly=fraternal, cow=bovine, first=primary, (fatherly=paternal), fox=vulpine(?), hound=canine, know=recognize, length=longitude(?), motherly=maternal, motherly=maternal, new=novel, nightly=nocturnal, wolf=lupine(?) 85.226.122.237 21:49, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Farm animals and meat
An interesting point that could be made in this article: Because the Normans were the ruling classes of England, and the Anglo-Saxons were the workers, English words for meat are often different name to the animal, because it was the Anglo-Saxons who reared the animals, but it was the Normans who would consume it.

Pork comes from Pig Beef comes from Cows Mutton comes from Sheep (although obviously eating Lamb is more a lot more popular now) Venison comes from Deer And poultry is usually only used in connection with food

 * Yeah, I heard about that theory, but I also read that the distinction is a more modern one, and it wasn't used like that in the actual Norman era. 85.226.122.205 18:34, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Poultry might be derivtaive of FR:poulet, and in French volaille is used to refer to poultry (or fowl). --belg4mit 71.192.58.23 16:41, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

More in-depth etymologies?
Since this page is entirely about word etymologies, I was wondering what y'all'd think about expanding those sections to be more informative about the words' histories. In particular, it could be interesting to see how different words in one language (PIE) changed in meaning over time in two different daughter lanbguages and eventually became synonyms in English—or, even more interestingly, those words where the Germanic and Latinate have the same PIE root, changed from each other in meaning over time, only to re-converge in English, substantially altered in form. And it won't be much of a leap from what we're doing now, since there are already a number of reconstructed forms on the list. Here's a sample of what it might look like:

-Silence 17:28, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I don't know if it would make the article lose some focus. Could be interesting, though. Should "be-" and "co-", etc. also be derived from PIE roots, in that case? 惑乱 分からん 12:36, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Automated pywikipediabot message
--CopyToWiktionaryBot 08:48, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Removed words?
Why are the removed words worse than the others? Too large semantic shifts? 2nd, I don't think we should use PG forms for words such as talk (unclear origin) and mistake (loanword), anyway. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * (talk) 18:05, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

EH?
What purpose, exactly, does this page serve? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.131.91.145 (talk) 06:06, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

 * English vocabulary is largely drawn from German and Latin because historically they were two different languages, and as a consequence there is a lot of redundancy. This list documents that. Quantumelfmage (talk) 03:06, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

List of words to be added
Before I found this article I had begun making a wordlist of my own, as I had a lot of writing/typing to do (and a soft-spot for Plain English and Anglish). It can be found here.

I would like the page to be a kind of "to-do list" for this article. You're welcome to add more words, although I'd prefer the layout to be kept the same (a plain list without the etymologies).

Thanks. ~Asarlaí 21:43, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Kangaroo Germanic??
In the "doublets" section, animals subsection, "kangaroo" is listed as a Germanic word. Really? Ancient Germanic peoples had knowledge of kangaroos?? Did they visit Australia then?? I always thought kangaroo was supposed to be derived from an Australian Aboriginal word. --Smcg8374 (talk) 13:00, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I've removed kangaroo, along with tortoise and ostrich - according to Online Etymology Dictionary, one of the sources listed for this article, these are not Germanic in origin. --Smcg8374 (talk) 05:09, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Perform Germanic??!
Perform has Latin origin : PERFORMARE (PER: do it well or scrutinizingly, and FORMARE > to give a form) 12:42, 8 May 2013. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.144.65.85 (talk)
 * Refer to the Etymology section of . The short of it seems to be: no, '-form' does not come from Latin, it's a derivation related to 'frame'. Anglom (talk) 20:42, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Updating the Proto-Germanic
Would anyone mind if I updated the Proto-Germanic words listed to be more in-line with the Wiktionary standard? To be clear, I don't mean linking to Wiktionary, but replacing the infinitive ending '-an' with '-ą', and so on. Anglom (talk) 20:53, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Words with Germanic origins that came into English through French
I think it would make sense to separate the words that were originally Germanic but nevertheless came into English through French/Norman from those that came directly from Old English (or Old Norse). Since putting them into a separate column would be difficult due to the layout of the table, perhaps a footnote should be added to them. Perhaps something similar should be done for words borrowed from Latin directly into Old English or even into Proto-Germanic, such as street. --- Wikitiki89 (talk) - 15:23, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree: abandon, allegiance, rank, buoy, herald, guide, burgeon, regard, banquet, gallivant are French/Norman derived words. Etiquette, chagrin, chic, guise, boulevard are even French words, not English ones. 41.221.193.173 (talk) 13:52, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Latinate or germanic?
I don't see the logic of having words such as boulevard as "germanic", especially when you say street (a word which was in PG!) is latinate... I'm going to transfer street, as it is clearly a germanic word, but I'm not sure what to do with the many French loanwords with some distant germanic origin


text:
Susaye Greene

Susaye Greene (born September 13, 1948) is an American singer and songwriter. She was the last official member to join the Motown girl group The Supremes, remaining in the group during its final year of existence from 1976 to 1977. She is a successful songwriter as well, having written hit records for Michael Jackson, Deniece Williams, and many others.

Early life and career
Born in Houston, Texas, Greene began her professional career at the age of 12. As a teenager, she moved to New York City where she attended Professional Children School, graduating in 1966 and later from the New York City High School of Performing Arts, and appeared in various commercials.

Prior to joining The Supremes, Greene sang with Ray Charles' Raelettes and Stevie Wonder's Wonderlove, which paired her with Deniece Williams and Shirley Brewer.

In 1973 she sang lead as a guest vocalist on New Birth's hit "Until It's Time for You to Go" (a cover of Buffy Sainte-Marie's song).

In 1975 she co-wrote "Free", Williams' breakthrough single.

The Supremes
Greene was a member of The Supremes from February 1976 to June 1977 (replacing Cindy Birdsong), and performed on their last two albums, High Energy and Mary, Scherrie & Susaye. Working alongside original member Mary Wilson and Scherrie Payne, Susaye quickly found her niche in the group and amongst the group's legions of fans. Susaye took lead on "He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother," in the group's live shows, which never failed to garner a standing ovation, and recorded "High Energy", the title song from the High Energy album. On June 12, 1977, the Supremes performed their farewell concert at the Drury Lane Theater in London and disbanded.

After The Supremes
In 1979, two years after The Supremes disbanded, Greene recorded a duet album with Payne entitled Partners under the name "Scherrie & Susaye". She also hosted her own cable television show, Hollywood Hot, and continued writing for various artists. One of her most noteworthy compositions was the track "I Can't Help It", co-written with Stevie Wonder for Michael Jackson's Off the Wall.

While touring England in 1984 with Wonder, Greene met her present husband in London and relocated there.

In 1986, she sang lead on jazz saxophonist Courtney Pine's single "Children of the Ghetto". She signed with Ian Levine's Motorcity label, based in the United Kingdom, in 1989. She released two solo singles on Motorcity – "Stop, I Need You Now" in 1990, and her own version of "Free" in 1991. She also recorded the duet "It's Impossible" with Billy Eckstine. An unreleased demo recording of "Don't Pity The Fool" also exists, although no vocals were added.

On July 5, 2014, Greene, along with Payne performed at the Sheraton in Los Angeles a concert program based on their album "Partners" which was released by Motown in 1979. They were featured in the magazine Daeida, with a photo shoot. The article chronicled career highlights with the Supremes and separately and the re-release of their "Partners" album on CD.

In October 2017, Greene replaced Lynda Laurence in the Former Ladies of the Supremes alongside Payne and Joyce Vincent Wilson.

On June 14, 2024, Payne reported that Greene had departed the group to spend time on her "entrepreneurial endeavors", and Laurence would be returning to the group.

Solo albums
Around the turn of the new millennium, Greene moved back to the United States, and in 2002, she finally released her first solo album, No Fear Here. Two singles and a video were released to critical acclaim. Greene penned most of the album herself. Susaye Greene released her second solo album, Brave New Shoes, in 2005.

Album appearances

 * High Energy – with The Supremes
 * Mary, Scherrie & Susaye – with The Supremes
 * At Their Best – with The Supremes
 * Partners – duet album with former Supreme Scherrie Payne
 * Songs in the Key of Life – Stevie Wonder (background vocals)
 * Hotter than July – Stevie Wonder (background vocals)
 * Journey to the Urge Within – Courtney Pine (Lead vocals on "Children of The Ghetto", 1986)
 * Vital Blue – Blue Mitchell (Mainstream, 1971)

Songwriting credits

 * "Free" – Deniece Williams
 * "Stop! I Need You Now"
 * "No Fear Here"
 * "Bewitched"
 * "I Can't Help It" – included in Michael Jackson's 1979 release Off the Wall; later included in Pebbles 1995 release, "Straight from My Heart". Also Davina in 1998.

Presence in the online artistic community
Susaye Greene is also a member of the world's largest online art community, DeviantArt. She joined DeviantArt on September 17, 2004, under the pseudonym "supremextreme". On September 21, 2005, Susaye was featured on DeviantArt's on-site chat network, "dAmn", for one of the community's regularly sponsored "Featured Chats". She interacted with members of the DeviantArt community-at-large, answering questions about her life, career, inspirations, motivations, and her time on the art site itself. Greene continues to be an active member on DeviantArt and is preparing 3D images of her Supremextreme character for her first short animated feature film. She is also a key figure in The one million masterpiece charity project, an online arts event aiming to raise over $6 million for global causes. Susaye is heavily involved in the marketing of the project to the artistic community.

Personal life
Susaye was married to Ed Brown; together they owned a company called "Mud", a mixture of their colorful names, Brown and Greene. Susaye is currently married to Stephen Coton; they have one son, Daniel.

title: Susaye Greene