text:
Talk:Vesica piscis

Use
When and by whom was this symbol used historically? --FOo 06:07, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Pythagoreans and early Christians, and, according to the originator of the article, 'Pagans' (though this is an increadibly vague term). CheeseDreams 18:39, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

2018
This symbol has been used thoughout all history by most religions, babylonian, chaldean, phonecian (The religion of these places transformed into judaism), judaism, christianity, islam, hinduism, buddism, mithraism, zoroatrianism, ancient egyptian, celtic, "Pagan," even the Mayans used the symbol. Using google images and searching you will find many new artist renditions but you can find many different christian churches, and cathedrals, ancient statues, ancient engravings, and carvings decorated with the vesica pisces sometimes pictured with jesus, angels, kings or saints inside of it. in islamic art and architecture of mosques the symbol can be found. many examples of the vesica pisces can be found in egyptian hieroglyphs, and written about on the columns of hermes. i will stop there and let you do the research yourself if you are interested in the symbolism and where it actually comes from, even Masonry uses the symbol as the diamond made by the compass and square of their logo

The vesica pisces is and always has been a symbol for a virgin birth which can be found in most religions. now the virgin birth in all religions before judaism and christianity did not involve a woman giving birth at times, but birth without sex like being born from the earth, like Mithra who emerged and was born from a rock not the same as Mary but a virgin birth all the same without sex. The Vesica Pisces symbolizes the virgin birth of the universe and everything in it, it symbolizes that God birthed the Universe and everything in it from God and was eventually changed to the icthys or jesus fish to symbolize the virgin birth of "Jesus" through the trinity who is seen as God, same idea, same "Pagan" symbol just put it into a story man could understand and relate to as times changed and Christianity was created

the sacred number in all religions is "7" and making a vesica pisces and creating 6 vesica pisces from the point where the lines intersect will make the "Flower of Life" which is another major religious symbol in most religions, the outer circle symbolizes "the universe's " creation and the inner 6 vesica pisces inside the outer circle symbolize the flowering of life

also using the lines of the two circles that create the vesica pisces in certain ways you are able to make perfect geometric shapes, all of them with perfect dimensions without a measuring tool for lines or angles depending on how big you make the circles will determine how big the shapes will be, the sacred geometry of Pythagoras goes back to  400-500 BC when he had started his mystery school which was essentially the first university

The symbol is still used today by many major corporations that run the world today to name a few Mastercard, Chanel, Gucci, Audi, The Olympic rings even contain it. Weirdest of all the Washington monument viewed from above will show you the Obelisk the monument is, is a phallic symbol and is coming out of a vesica pisces (vagina) on the ground made by the surrounding garden. This symbol is everywhere if you open your eyes and look for it you will see it which adds more to its mystery of why it is there and has been used through all history up until the present day -- 02:13, 16 January 2018 User:IAmTheHiddenCode

Shape
Please note that the Vesica Piscis is the fish shape NOT the overlapping circles. Vesica Piscis is latin for fish face.CheeseDreams 18:40, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Please see the new diagram for explanation. CheeseDreams 21:30, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure. I've seen vesica piscis used to refer to the almond-shaped (or, if you're Pagan, vulva-shaped) region formed by the overlapping circles, without the "fish tails" found on the ichthus. See, e.g.:  —FOo 23:37, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * There is an easy way to settle this issue. If someone could measure the width of the whole shape (including fish tails) and the height, and also measure the width of the shorter tailless shape. And then inform what the height-width ratio is of each of the two shapes. It is quite late in UTC land, so I, myself, will not check it till later.CheeseDreams 00:24, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Here is a detailed link. It is briefly mentioned on this website, and at the bottom of the page on this website. CheeseDreams 19:45, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"each circle lies on the perimeter of the other" and "any symmetric lens" do not agree. (IF you look at the reference, there are varying width "lenses".) 64.47.44.27 (talk) 22:53, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

 * Vesica Piscis is latin for “fish bladder”, a reference to the swim bladder, an organ filled with air which a fish can use to sink or to float - writes an ip. moved by Johnbod (talk) 17:07, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

 * First time I hear this curious “hyperliteral” interpretation of the termʼs etymological meaning as “bladder of the fish” referring to specifically the swim bladders. It has always been my understanding that vesica piscis refers to “fishlike bladder” (i.e., “bladder [shape] [resembling the lateral profile] of a fish”), with the genitive functioning as equivalent to an adjetival like “pisceus” (and more specifically, referring to the ichthys shape), rather than referring to the “conjoined dual swim bladders” of the internals of a fish (which I bet most people are not even aware they exist at all, much less what specific shape they make when conjoined). So this interpretation looks to me quite convoluted and far-fetched, and I think it certainly needs some citation to support it, as opposed to the shape having been named like that simply because it quite obviously resembles the shape of a fish body sketch and was named in relation to the ichthys (the vesica piscis shape is the bladder-like portion of an ichthys shape: just add a triangle for the tail fin, and maybe a circle for an eye, and everybody can see a full fish there and not just its internal swim bladders). In fact, I think an older version of this article had an illustration of precisely this (how the vesica piscis can be turned into a simplified drawing of a fish by adding the missing extension that turns it into an ichthys). The swim bladders are also not the only bladders found inside a fish, by the way—they have a gall bladder too, for example—so it also seems like a stretch to interpret “fish bladder” as referring narrowly to the pair of swim bladders and moreover viewing them both together as a singular item. 80.103.150.15 (talk) 17:31, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Merge to Fish shaped religious symbol thing
I would like to propose merging this article with that of Ichthys. The object in question is the same, and they are really just uses of the same thing by different peoples. I think there should be a section on "Christian use of THAT SHAPE" and "Pre-Christian use of THAT SHAPE" in the surviving article, and then any other bits that are in each article as well. However, I do not know what the resulting article ought to be called, maybe Fish shaped religious symbol thing CheeseDreams 20:25, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'd say they're more like twins, raised apart. They have different identities, different religions, and despite a family resemblance they don't look quite the same any more (one being geometric, the other freehand). Even the lack of a common name underscores how forced and difficult it would be to put them together. Leave them with their own pages, each with a link to his "brother". Tverbeek 02:06, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Formula wanted
Any mathematicians out there that can conjure up a formula for: (a) Area of overlap when both circles are equal size? (b) Area of overlap when the circles are unequal size? 172.152.244.122 02:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

 * See Mrs. Miniver's problem for a little discussion... AnonMoos 15:57, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

 * (b) does not make sense if each circle goes through the centre of the other. For (a), off the top of my head without checking:
 * $$2\pi r^2 - 2 {2 \over 3}\pi r^2 - 2 {\sqrt{3} r^2 \over 4} = \left({2\pi \over 3}-{\sqrt{3} \over 2}\right) r^2 $$
 * which is about 1.228...r^2, about 0.391... times the area of a circle or about 0.226... times the area of the triple shape. --Henrygb 21:48, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

"Pythagorean theorem"
Dear "Noe", the Pythagorean theorem has a somewhat tangential relationship to explaining the fact under discussion (since one must FIRST do a fair amount of geometry before being able to apply the Pythagorean theorem) -- but the equilateral triangles can be DIRECTLY SEEN in the construction of the Vesica Piscis (as shown in the diagram). The sqare root of three comes in from the well-known property that if the side of an equilateral triangle is 1, then the height of the triangle -- from center of base to vertex -- is half the square root of three. You could indeed derive this property by means of the Pythagorean theorem, but only if you constructed the triangles first. AnonMoos 02:34, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I teach an international group of children in an IB school, and though it may depend on different math teaching traditions in different countries, I find that the Pythagorean theorem is known to nearly everyone, but the height of an equilateral triangle is not.--Niels Ø 10:15, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

 * That's nice -- you can't apply the Pythagorean theorem unless you hjave FIRST constructed the triangles, can you now? AnonMoos 11:29, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I don't know what the point of that was meant to be, but here is my point (again): I think the explanation I shortened down is too long for the present purposes, and it does not reach the desired conclusion, unless one consideres finding the height of an equilateral triangle to be trivial. So, either the explanation should be finished, making it even longer, or it should be replaced by something shorter and less complicated, that doesn't pretend to be a complete proof. I tried to do the latter, and I still think that is the best choice. The pair of facts that (i) the Pythagorean theorem is involved, while (ii) the Pythagoreans believed in a different result, seems mildly amusing to me, which is why I mentioned the Pythagorean theorem here, but it may really be irrelevant here.--Niels Ø 15:48, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I really don't understand how your Triangophobia is relevant to the article, but I do know that the fact that the centers of the two circles and the two circle intersection points are at the vertices of two back-to-back equilateral triangles (as shown in red in the construction diagram) is a hightly relevant fact about the geometry of the Vesica Piscis -- and that your edit suppresses all mention of this relevant geometric fact, and replaces it with a vague hand-waving invocation of the Pythagorean theorem (which is utterly useless to explain anything unless you construct the triangles first). AnonMoos 04:36, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Things that I fail to understand are happening in the section ==Mystical and religious significance==. What does lengthy geometrical arguments and lists of rational approximants have to do with that section? Please explain!--Niels Ø 18:19, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

 * At least he's not deleting relevant information, the way you have always done... AnonMoos 03:42, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Now, please be civil and get your facts right. I deleted it from a section where it was irrelevant, and when it was pointed out - correctly - that it was relevant, I added it to the section where it was relevant. Is that a problem? Your using the word "always" suggests you have checked my contributions list, but your accusation tell me you haven't. Your using the word "he" disguises the fact it's yourself you are talking about.--Niels Ø 07:21, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm sorry, but in every single one of your edits, as of 03:42, 16 May 2006, you deleted relevant information FROM THE ARTICLE AS A WHOLE. AnonMoos 16:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

What useful information did I remove in the edit ? Listing other rational approximations to $$\sqrt{3}$$ is hardly relevant here. Anyway, I'm glad the two of us are no longer alone in this field, and I warmly welcome user:The Anomes action (see following section in this discussion).--Niels Ø 20:22, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm the one who added the list of rational approximations, replacing this sentence:
 * The fraction 265:153 is a ratio of whole numbers under 1000 which approximates the square root of 3 (though 362:209 and 989:571 are actually closer approximations).
 * — which made the choice of approximations seem arbitrary. On the contrary, for any irrational number there is a well-defined sequence of best rational approximations, and you can always do better with big enough integers.  I could have expressed that better.  The symbolic significance of 153 is interesting and (though I'm not religious) I think it ought to be restored somehow.  I wonder whether Dr.I.J.Matrix is aware of it.  —Tamfang 05:03, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I actually agree a little with Noe on this one -- some editor(s) seemed to claim that 265:153 was a remarkably close approximation to the square root of 3, so other editor(s) added the cautionary note that 362:209 and 989:571 were even better, but there's no real reason to go into a whole discussion of fractional rational approximations here... AnonMoos 15:51, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

 * And (not surprisingly) I agree with AnonMoos here... I'm very interested in rational approximants; in fact, I have written a (so far unpublished) article about them, continued fractions, and related topics. It's just not relevant here. Anyway, 265:153 is a so-called best approximant, as all fractions with smaller denominator (or with smaller numerator) are poorer approximations. Comparing it to other approximants involving numbers less than 1000 is only relevant in the context of a decimal system, where limiting numbers to 3 decimal digits imposes that limit.--Niels Ø 16:41, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

The "measure of the fish"
I have moved the section below out of the article because of concerns about verifiability.

From the article:

 * Mystical and religious significance

 * It has been the subject of mystical speculation at several periods of history, perhaps first among the Pythagoreans, who considered it a holy figure. The mathematical ratio of its width (measured to the endpoints of the "body", not including the "tail") to its height was reportedly believed by them to be 265:153. This ratio, equal to 1.73203, was thought of as a holy number, called the measure of the fish. The geometric ratio of these dimensions is actually the square root of 3, or 1.73205... (since if you draw straight lines connecting the centers of the two circles with each other, and with the two points where the circles intersect, then you get two equilateral triangles joined along an edge, as shown in light red in the diagram).

 * Rational approximations to the square root of 3, improving as larger integers are used, include:
 * 1:2, 3:5, 4:7, 11:19, 15:26, 41:71, 56:97, 153:265, 209:362, 571:989 . ..
 * The number 153 appears in the Gospel of John as the exact number of fish Jesus caused to be caught in a miraculous catch of fish, which is thought by some to be a coded reference to Pythagorean beliefs.

This section contains a number of unsourced speculations:
 * "...subject of mystical speculation at several periods of history..." -- which periods of history? Cite please?
 * "...perhaps first among the Pythagoreans, who considered it a holy figure." -- cite please?
 * "...was reportedly believed by them to be 265:153." -- "reportedly"? Reported where?
 * "...a holy number, called the measure of the fish" -- cite please?
 * "...is thought by some to be a coded reference to Pythagorean beliefs." -- thought by whom? Cite please?

Can someone please provide verifiable cites from mainstream sources for these assertions before restoring this material? And, before you ask, please can you give something other than a website that does not appear to me to provide cites for any of these assertions: -- The Anome 07:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Mathematics of vesica areas (Bruce Rawles)
 * Spiritual significance of Vesica Piscis (Bruce Rawles)

You could read "Musings on the Vesica Piscis" - an article in "Nexus Network Journal" (ISSN: 1590-5869) Volume 6, Number 2 (a maths + architecture journal). If you want an earlier reference, you could read Porphyry and Plato which touch briefly upon it (e.g. in Timaeus), Porphyry recounting that Pythagoras caught 153 fish in a single catch of the net from the side of a boat. "On the Measurement of the Cycle" (Archimedes) also mentions "the measure of the fish" in this 153/vesica piscis context. The significantly more modern "City of Revelation" by Mitchell covers this topic, and goes into detail on the gematria and isopsephia aspects. Clinkophonist 17:15, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

...So I suppose I should add the section back. Clinkophonist 17:18, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Thanks -- I read the Mitchell book a long time ago (but I don't have it now), and I knew that many of these claims date back at least to late 19th-century / early 20th century books (and certainly weren't invented on some website), but I didn't really have specific references. AnonMoos 15:47, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Please provide the references as requested, not just a list of books, preferrably with quotations. The religious connections is not a bunch of trivia and must be thoroughly sourced. As for the reference "musings, they are musings to be ignored, unless they quote something serious sources. Mukadderat 19:27, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Oh, so because the author titled it "Musings on the Vesica Piscis" the paper is to be ignored, no matter the extensive list of references provided in the paper nor the fact of having been published in a peer-reviewed journal devoted to architecture and mathematics. Did you care to have even a cursory look at it? Uaxuctum 19:13, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Vulva shape and symbolism
The association of the Vesica Piscis with the Yoni is important and its mention on this page and on the Aureola page should not be deleted by vandals who like to determine for other people what is relevant and what is not.

Just a few references:

 * "The sheela-na-gig is a naked woman...displaying her vulva, which is shown as a vesica piscis." Barbara Walker - The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets (Harper San Francisco, 1983)

 * "The vesica, or central area of the interlocked circles, was treated not only with reverence but as a sacred entity. It was an area from which so much else, geometrically, could be created. With their knowledge of the macro-cosmos, it was not lost on our ancestors that the shape was not dissimilar to that of the female vulva, the origins of intelligent form -the origins of all of us. It thus represented the geometry of life." Kevin L. Gest - The Secrets of Solomon's Temple (ISBN 0853182566)

 * "The Vesica Piscis. Two interlocking circles form the Yoni or Vulva of the Goddess." Kathy Jones - The Goddess in Glastonbury (1990)

 * "As the joining together of two circles of equal radii, creating a third intersecting area that is symbolic of the vulva and the womb, the vesica piscis is one of the fundamental symbols of sacred geometry, and the origin, as well, of the Tree of Life of the Kabbala." Margaret Starbird - Magdalene's Lost Legacy, Symbolic Numbers & Sacred Union

 * "The middle section of the Vesica Piscis is called a mandorla, an almond shape that was seen to be the place of birth, the sacred yoni or vulva. This vulva shape is an ancient motif pointing to the Mother Goddess." Constance S. Rodriguez PhD, LCSW - Sacred Portals, Pathways to the Self (ISBN 9781403375926)

Tchoutoye 01:54, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Please be careful with strong words, such as "vandalism" etc. Please look up Vandalism. I have nothing againct inclusion of anything provided you provide correct historical context and references. `'mikka 02:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Please keep in mind when providing references to books, a distinction must be made between scholars in mythology and self-proclaimed experts in modern misticysm. Today everyone may print a book with any fantastic theory. `'mikka 02:09, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Yes, but this guy User:Mukadderat keeps deleting not only material (dealing with the connection between this shape and religious iconography and symbolism) which might be labelled "controversial", but even the very diagram showing the geometric construction of this shape, which is a) well known, b) not disputed in the least, c) the origin of the very name "vesica piscis". First he tried to justify the deletion claiming the diagram "unnecessary" (which is not, since the other picture doesn't make it clear how to construct the shape nor what the proportions are), and now in his last deletion round he has even called it "unsourced", which shows he hasn't even cared to look at a single reference, nor to learn basic geometry for that matter (maybe he would like to check this: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Lens.html ), and proves he's not in the least interested in improving the article but merely in trolling around deleting content he doesn't want to be there for whatever capricious reason of his. I'm starting to find this behaviour very annoying and I wouldn't doubt calling it "vandalism" if it continues. Uaxuctum 19:13, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

"I have nothing againct inclusion of anything provided you provide correct historical context and references." In that case you should mark the content with "citation needed", not simply delete it.

 * There is no obligation to use the citation needed tag. Additionally, it doesn't make sense to use the tag to mark a "see also" link.  --C S (Talk) 02:52, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

"Please keep in mind when providing references to books, a distinction must be made between scholars in mythology and self-proclaimed experts in modern misticysm. Today everyone may print a book with any fantastic theory." In this case the issue is not contested. Both the PhD scholars and the "self-proclaimed experts" are unanimous on this. Dr. Constance Rodriguez has a background in Jungian Theory and a doctorate in Depth Psychology. Is that good enough for you? Tchoutoye 02:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Not good. Just as doctorate in rocket science, biology or venereal diseases not good either. Experts to be quoted in articles are required to be recognized experts in the topic of the article. `'mikka 04:20, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

 * I think it's fairly obvious that this background is not sufficient to make one an expert in ancient history, which is the relevant field here for her assertion. Presumably she gives a citation for her quote.  I would suggest looking at that instead.  Furthermore, it would be best to incorporate the reliably sourced materials on vesica piscics as a symbol for the yoni in either this article or the yoni article.  At the moment, it seems the discussion is rather odd as you two are discussing the inclusion of a see also link with no content explaining the relevance of the link in either articles.  --C S (Talk) 02:52, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I assume that the opponent is going to expand either of the article in question from the mentioned references. Since I am not an expert here, my sole concern in this and some related articles is proliferation of unreferenced texts. Knowing that there is lots of fantasies are around the internet, my sole action here is to keep the text reasonably referenced. `'mikka 04:20, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I've added a note to the Vesica_piscis section, mentioning the yonic interpretation and specifically labeling it a new age interpretation, and including the above references. This is clearly a common interpretation, as attested by the references, and hence should be mentioned, but I don't know if research shows that yonic is a traditional interpretation. Nbarth (talk) 00:32, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

 * It seems that a "New Age" label is becoming the default term for anything that people want to ridicule or imply that something should be dismissed as coming from nutters with wild imaginative theories. It would probably be more accurate to 'label' it as an occult, or even an ancient, interpretation. Some Non-New Age sources...
 * http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/fish_symbol.htm
 * http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/en_ichthyology/17984/vesica
 * --ElizWard (talk) 07:56, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Vandalic attitude from User:Mukkaderat
I've had it. This user keeps deleting the diagram and the description that show the geometric construction of this figure, even when this it not in the least a controversial issue, even after having been repeatedly warned in the revert summaries, and even after plenty of references for it have been provided both in the article and in this talk page (e.g., the MathWorld entry for this shape which I had provided above). So from now on I consider that this user is vandalizing this article and have left him a warning to the effect in his talk page. Uaxuctum 12:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Colleague, The drawing and its description are deleted, as repeatedly explained, because they introduce unreferenced association of vesica piscis with ichthys in tthe history of christianity. Just the same, I may start pushing the theory that vesica piscis is the thape of the eye of a japanese woman and all the remaining pieces of the circles and surrounding boxes are crow's feet around these eyes, referring to mistical influence of oriental women on Europeans. Excluding the "fish tail" the description and picture are redundant, because the ones already given in the introduction describe and show the shape completely. Mukadderat 15:46, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Do you know what the very name of this shape vesica piscis means in Latin? It means "the bladder of the fish", because the shape was thought in relation to the full shape with the two extensions forming the "tail" that resembles that of a fish. And do you know what the Greek word ichthys means? It means "fish". If you want to remove references to Christianity because of concerns about verifiability, even though it is not hard in the least to understand why a geometric figure that was associated with the shape of a fish could come to be associated with Jesus which was also associated and represented by the shape of a fish, do it if they really are not supported by the many references already provided. But any case, do it without removing the info about the geometric construction of this shape, which is clearly supported by many references including the MathWorld entry and most certainly is not "pushing a theory". If you remove this non-controversial and already well-referenced geometric construction diagram and section one more time, I will report you as a vandal. So you have already been warned, twice. Uaxuctum 16:10, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

 * You persistently do not provide the required reference. No need to threaten me. I know fish and fish. There are many fish and words related to fish The point is that the text does not provide the required association within christian beliefs. MathWorld does not draw fish tails. Mukadderat 16:23, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

 * The reference to the shape of a fish is in the very name of the shape vesica piscis, it needs no further sourcing. I told you you can remove the association with religious beliefs if it is not supported by references (although the association with Christian symbolism is already supported by at least one peer-reviewed reference), but not the geometric construction diagram nor the fact that this shape was named as it was named because it was seen as a portion of a fish shape. Uaxuctum 16:56, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Oh, and removing reliable sources such as articles published in peer-reviewed journals is a very serious vandalic act. Uaxuctum 16:18, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Which one? I also would advice you to avoid using the word "vandalism"; see Vandalism. It is not an argument in discussion, only an indication of you being angry about our disagreement. Mukadderat 16:23, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

 * The article "Musings on the Vesica Piscis" is a fully-referenced scholarly work published in a peer-reviewed journal. Removing all or significant parts of pages, such as removing the info and diagram about the geometric construction of this shape and removing a reliable source, is considered vandalism according to the definition of blanking given in Vandalism. Uaxuctum 16:56, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

 * "Musings" are musings by an amateur, not a recognized expert neither in Christianity nor mythology, nor history. This argument is standard all over wikipedia, please see similar example. Mukadderat 18:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

 * The supposedly "similar" example you provide does not apply. Rachel Fletcher is not "an amateur", she is an expert in the issue of the uses and symbolism of geometry in design, having curated several museum exhibits on the matter:

 * "Rachel Fletcher is a geometer/theatre designer and restoration planner, with a B.A. from Hofstra University, M.A. from S.U.N.Y. Albany, and M.F.A. from Humboldt State University. She is the curator of two museum exhibits on geometry, Infinite Measure and Design By Nature, co-curator of the exhibit Harmony by Design: The Golden Mean and author of the exhibition catalog The Golden Mean as a Design Tool. In conjunction with these exhibits, which have traveled to Chicago, Washington, D.C., and New York, she teaches geometry and proportion as a design system to architects and designers, and has developed a hands-on geometry curriculum for school-age children. She is an adjunct lecturer at the New York School of Interior Design. Her essays have appeared in the Nexus Network Journal, Design Spirit, Parabola, Via, Building Design, the Lindisfarne Letter, and The Power of Place. Her design/consulting credits include an outdoor mainstage for Shakespeare & Co. in Lenox, Massachusetts and the Marston Balch Theatre at Tufts University."

 * Many books on architecture talk about the religious symbology in buildings and the authors do not need to be scholars of Christianity, mythology or history to produce scholarly works on this issue relevant to architecture. Architects can and do use other references to get the information they need for their studies of religious symbolism in architecture, and it is unlikely that a scholar of biblical studies would produce a better reference for the religious symbolism in buildings than a scholar of architecture specialized in the issue. Same for studying the symbolism in geometric forms, for which someone who has been the curator of several museum exhibits on geometry in design, and who provides plenty of respectable sources in her paper, is a valid reference, especially since her paper has been peer-reviewed and published in a serious journal on geometry, not on some general-purpose magazine nor self-published. Uaxuctum 22:44, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You convinced me that this person may provide useful and reliable references. No more objections for her in reference list. Mukadderat 00:06, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Please be aware that your edit war without providing valin references into deleted unreferenced text about questioned statements, per Attribution may lead you to blocking. Mukadderat 16:33, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Plenty of references have been already provided both in the article and in this talk page, but you have consistently refused to have a look at them and even tried to remove a peer-reviewed journal source from the article. Uaxuctum 16:56, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

 * I don't refuse. I checked them and even added one more, to a book of internationally known scholars, which confirm article's staements about "153" number. I deleted one reference to essay of a person without credentials in the area of religion, history or mythology. Mukadderat 18:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Mandorla confusion
In the intro, it says “The shape is called a mandorla ("almond") in India”. This text makes it seem like “mandorla” is an a term for almond in some Indian tongue. Mandorla is in fact the Italian word for “almond”, and the term itself is most commonly used in Western culture when describing traditional Christian art. It has nothing to do with India. There is a term called Mandala (which derives from early Sanskrit for “circle”) that is used in India and is of importance to several of the Dharmic religions. I wonder if this is what Jossi was thinking when he made the edit. In any case, I think it should be removed (and I’ll do it if no one objects within a few days). -- 02:32, 15 June 2007 76.188.227.151

Euclid
I see that no one's posted on the talk page in a while. It may be useful to note that this shape is used in Euclid's first proposition in Elements, where he uses it to construct an equilateral triangle. Call the two centers of the circles A and B and one of their intersections C. Connect A, B, and C to form a triangle. In 2 (flat) dimensions, the triangle is equilateral because AB, BC, and AC are of equal length (they are each the radius of at least one of two circles of equal size). A nifty little proof and an interesting historical context. Just a suggestion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.189.199.47 (talk) 04:51, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

√ 13
There is another esoteric number included: The connecting line between the centre of one of the circles and one of the points of intersection of the two circels is $${\sqrt{13}}$$ (multiplied with circles diameter), resp. $${\sqrt{13} \over 2}$$ (multiplied with width of the vesica piscis)... 212.23.104.120 (talk) 18:56, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

 * What?! That line segment is the radius. —Tamfang (talk) 19:04, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Solar eclipse forms vesica piscis, "As above, so below" & sacred geometry
I added the following and one reference (I need to take the time to come up with other references)... '''The most famous example in nature of the vesica piscis is, of course, when a solar eclipse occurs. At various points in the Moon's orbit, it appears to be exactly the same size of the Sun while observing both from Earth. As the Moon moves to cover the Sun, it forms a vesica piscis. This had great significance to the ancients! In many ancient cultures, the Sun was a male god and the Moon a goddess, and the vesica piscis symbolized the opening or gateway between these two polarities through which creation can take place <ref>Nicholas R. Mann, The Sacred Geometry of Washington, D.C. p. 92 (Barnes & Noble, 2006)</ref>. The ancient Egyptians practiced sacred geometry based on "As above, so below". Architects and artists copied the solar eclipse/vesica piscis and its mathematics in their sacred buildings and artwork to reflect their religious beliefs. This ancient tradition was passed on through the centuries by the Freemasons.' <ref>Nicholas R. Mann, The Sacred Geometry of Washington, D.C.'', p. 92 (Barnes & Noble, 2006)</ref> - Brad Watson, Miami, FL 71.196.11.183 (talk) 18:26, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

 * I'm skeptical. You don't see a vesica during a solar eclipse ... —Tamfang (talk) 19:02, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

eclipse
Following up on the above comment from 9 months ago, I agree that this is crap because you DON"T see a vesica during an eclipse ... you see the rough equivalent of the MasterCard logo, maybe, not not a vesica. The conclusions in the rest of the paragraph don't follow from the eclipse at all ... - !!!!

Mysticism
Removed the below text as its citations are unreliable conspiracy theories/mysticism. A well written NPOV section on the mystical associations of the symbol would be appropriate here (I imagine this is mostly why people come to the article) but the below does not meet this standard since it uncritically presents these theories as though true (adding the hedge "according to some" alone does not in and of itself make something NPO:

"The vesica piscis has been the subject of mystical speculation at several periods of history, and is viewed as important in some forms of Kabbalah. More recently, numerous New Age authors have interpreted it as a yonic symbol and claimed that this, a reference to the female genitals, is a traditional interpretation.

One author claims that the total solar eclipse inspires images of the vesica piscis. The ancient Egyptians practiced sacred geometry based on the shape. Architects and artists copied the solar eclipse/vesica piscis and its mathematics in their sacred buildings and artwork to reflect their religious beliefs. This ancient tradition was passed on through the centuries by the Freemasons. " — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.171.67.244 (talk) 13:28, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

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Two questions from a passerby

 * 1) Could a pronunciation key like the one found in Modus ponens be created for Vesica piscis?
 * 2) This seems to be a western-centric article (which may be fine). Are there any mathematical/artistic/spiritual uses/appearances of the vesica piscis in Asian histories/societies? 2601:88:8100:7443:C42E:B844:D573:545 (talk) 03:56, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Vesica piscis


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Talk:Levi Stubbs

Untitled
This article was proposed for deletion on 12 July 2004. The consensus decision was to keep the article. See Votes for deletion/Levi Stubbs for details of the discussion. Rossami 06:10, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Deletion!? That's ridiculous, Stubbs was the lead singer of an incredibly popular and highly succesful group, often times considered as legendary as the Temptations themselves. If every other rocker with one or two hits is notable why should an R&B legend be proposed for deletion? Eatspie (talk) 12:35, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Can someone verify the Marvin Gaye quote? The exact same quote is on the David Ruffin page. I doubt he said the exact same thing about both singers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.160.51.98 (talk) 09:53, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Stroke
What... no mention of the stroke? 147.70.242.40 (talk) 22:38, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Unreferenced? Please.
I removed that nag-tag. Added some crap. With references. Eaglizard (talk) 19:05, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Birth Name
What is the source that his birth name is Stubbles and not Stubbs? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Violette Martin (talk • contribs) 19:49, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Levi Stubbs


text:
User talk:Grimace

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Unverified image
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title: User talk:Grimace


text:
User talk:The-observer

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Proposed deletion of The Cat House on the Kings

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Nomination of Kitten Rescue for deletion
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Proposed deletion of Precious Paws

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title: User talk:The-observer


text:
Cure for Pain

Cure for Pain is the second studio album by alternative rock band Morphine, released through Rykodisc in September 1993. Jerome Deupree, the band's original drummer, quit due to health problems during the recording of the album and was replaced by Billy Conway.

The tracks "Sheila" and "In Spite of Me" were prominently featured on the soundtrack of the 1994 independent film Spanking the Monkey. The video for "Thursday" also appeared on an episode of Beavis and Butt-head. The track "Buena" also appears in the first season of The Sopranos, in the Daria episode "The Teachings of Don Jake," and the barroom scene in the 1997 film Ulee's Gold. In 2014, the album placed eighth on the Alternative Nation site's "Top 10 Underrated '90s Alternative Rock Albums" list. Also in 2014, Cure for Pain was included and analyzed in the book Overlooked/Underappreciated: 354 Recordings That Demand Your Attention.

As of 1995, it has sold 107,000 copies in United States and over 300,000 copies worldwide. As of 2017, combined sales of Cure for Pain and 1995's Yes are 661,000 sold copies in United States.

Track listing

 * Japanese edition bonus track

2021 vinyl expanded edition
In December 2021, the Run Out Groove label released a vinyl-only edition of Cure for Pain, which included a bonus record of unreleased and new-to-vinyl-rarities, all remastered from the original source tapes.

 * side one (1-7) and two (8-13) as per original album

Personnel
Morphine Additional musicians Technical Bonus tracks
 * Mark Sandman – vocals, 2-string slide bass, tritar, guitar, organ
 * Dana Colley – baritone saxophone, tenor saxophone, backing vocals (8, 10)
 * Jerome Deupree – drums
 * Billy Conway – drums (9, 11), cocktail drum overdub (8)
 * Jimmy Ryan – mandolin (7)
 * Ken Winokur – percussion (13)
 * Paul Q. Kolderie – producer (2–6, 8–10, 12), engineer (2–6, 8–10, 12), mixing (2–6, 8–10, 12)
 * Mark Sandman – producer (1, 7, 11, 13), engineer (1, 7, 11, 13), mixing (1, 7, 11, 13), photography (color pictures)
 * Steve Folsom – engineer (11)
 * Toby Mountain – mastering
 * Robin Spencer – design
 * Cindy Bortman – photography (black and white pictures)
 * Dennis Stein – photography (bass picture)
 * Recorded and mixed at Fort Apache, Cambridge, MA., except tracks 1, 7, 11 and 13 recorded and mixed at Hi-N-Dry, Cambridge, MA., and tracks 4 and 9 mixed at Q Division, Somerville, MA.
 * Larry Dersch – drums on "Mile High"
 * Russ Gershon – tenor saxophone on "Mile High" and "Bo's Veranda"
 * Tom Halter – trumpet on "Mile High"
 * Mike Rivard – bass on "Bo's Veranda"
 * Sabine Hrechdakian – vocals on "Down Love's Tributaries"
 * Rick Barry – percussion on "My Brain"

title: Cure for Pain


text:
Forum Boarium

The Forum Boarium (, Foro Boario) was the cattle market or forum venalium of ancient Rome. It was located on a level piece of land near the Tiber between the Capitoline, the Palatine and Aventine hills. As the site of the original docks of Rome (Portus Tiberinus) and adjacent to the Pons Aemilius, the earliest stone bridge across the Tiber, the Forum Boarium experienced intense commercial activity.

History
The site was a religious centre housing the Temple of Hercules Victor, the Temple of Portunus (Temple of Fortuna Virilis), and the massive 6th or 5th century BC Ara Maxima. According to legend, when Hercules arrived in this area with Geryon’s oxen, he was robbed of these by the giant Cacus, who lived in a cave at the foot of the Aventine hill. After slaying the giant, Hercules was honoured as a god by the ancient dwellers of the Palatine hill, who are said to have dedicated an altar to him. The tufa stone core of this altar is housed inside the church of Santa Maria in Cosmedin.

The Forum Boarium was the site of the first gladiatorial contest at Rome which took place in 264 BC as part of aristocratic funerary ritual—a munus or funeral gift for the dead. Marcus and Decimus Junius Brutus Scaeva put on a gladiatorial combat in honor of their deceased father with three pairs of gladiators.

In 215BC, four victims were buried alive by the Romans under the Forum Boarium as human sacrifices to placate the gods after a series of events were seen as portents to great disaster. In volume five of Livy's History of Rome, which was written about 200 years later, the Roman historian wrote: A Gaulish man and a Gaulish woman and a Greek man and a Greek woman were buried alive under the Forum Boarium. They were lowered into a stone vault, which had on a previous occasion also been polluted by human victims, a practice most repulsive to Roman feelings. When the gods were believed to be duly propitiated, Marcus Claudius Marcellus sent from Ostia 1500 men who had been enrolled for service with the fleet to garrison Rome.

Architecture
The Temple of Hercules Victor ("Hercules the Winner") or Hercules Olivarius ("Hercules the Olive-Bearer) is a circular peristyle building dating from the 2nd century BC. It consists of a colonnade of Corinthian columns arranged in a concentric ring around the cylindrical cella, resting on a tuff foundation. These elements originally supported an architrave and roof which have disappeared. It is the earliest surviving marble building in Rome. For centuries, this was known as the Temple of Vesta.

The Temple of Portunus is a rectangular building built between 100 and 80 BC. It consists of a tetrastyle portico and cella mounted on a podium reached by a flight of steps. The four Ionic columns of the portico are free-standing, while the six columns on the long sides and four columns at the rear are engaged along the walls of the cella. It is built of tuff and travertine with a stucco surface. This temple was for centuries known as the Temple of Fortuna Virilis.

Sources claim the Forum was the site for placement of a statue by the sculptor Myron, which had been looted from Aegina. While the source mentions a cow, it may have been a statuary group of Theseus defeating the Minotaur, which was apt for a cattle market.

During the late period of the Western Roman Empire, the area became overtaken with shops. Both temples were deconsecrated and converted to Christian churches. Across the street is the church of Santa Maria in Cosmedin, housing the Bocca della Verità.

Restoration
Beginning in the late 1990s, a partnership between the Soprintendenza speciale per i beni archeologici di Roma and World Monuments Fund resulted in the conservation of both temples in the Forum Boarium. The project also included new landscaping for the site. However, the Arch of Janus is still unrestored.

title: Forum Boarium


text:
Talk:Ladies

Ladies was proposed for deletion on 12 July 2004. The consensus decision was to make it a redirect to Lady. See Votes for deletion/Ladies for details of the discussion. Rossami 06:16, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

title: Talk:Ladies


text:
Forum Holitorium

The Forum Holitorium or Olitorium (Latin for the "Market of the Vegetable Sellers"; Foro Olitorio) is an archaeological area of Rome, Italy, on the slopes of the Capitoline Hill. It was located outside the Carmental Gate in the Campus Martius, crowded between the cattle market (Forum Boarium) and buildings located in the Circus Flaminius.

In ancient times it was the fruit and vegetable market, while the area of the adjacent Forum Boarium served as meat market. At its northern end were the temples of Bellona, goddess of war, and Apollo Medicus. It also included a sacred area with three small temples dedicated to Janus, Spes and Juno Sospita.

The sacred area
The construction of the sacred area of the forum dates back to the Republican age, more precisely to the period between the first and the second Punic War. Subsequently, at the time of Caesar (1st century BC), it underwent renovations which involved the demolition of a fourth temple: it was built by Manius Acilius Glabrio (consul in 191 BC) next to the Temple of Janus and was demolished during the construction of the Theatre of Marcellus (then completed by Augustus). The temple was dedicated to the worship of Diana.

The staircases of the three temples were not aligned, which confirms the absence of uniform town-planning criteria during the Republican age. Their construction limited the area of the market, which previously might have extended up to the Tiber.

These temples are now part of the structure of the Basilica of San Nicola in Carcere, first attested in the 11th century Liber Pontificalis.

Temple of Janus
The Temple of Janus was the one located on the right and the closest to the Theatre of Marcellus. Built by Gaius Duilius at the time of the First Punic War, it was restored in AD 17 by Tiberius.

It was a peripteros temple sine postìcum (with columns on three sides), with eight tuff (peperino) columns on the long sides and six on the front (hexastyle), covered with stucco and raised on a low podium with elegant shaping.

Temple of Spes
The Temple of Spes (Aedes Spei) was located on the left, in opposition to the Temple of Janus. It was built by Aulus Atilius Calatinus, at the time of the First Punic War as well; it was restored in 232 BC and rebuilt after the fire of 213 BC, which also destroyed the temples of Sant'Omobono Area; finally it was restored in AD 17 by Germanicus Julius Caesar.

It was a peripteros doric temple with six columns on the front and eleven on the long side; the columns were made of raw travertine and covered with stucco to simulate the appearance of marble. It measured 25 m in length and 11 m in width.

Six columns of the temple with their architrave still exist, incorporated in the left side of the church of San Nicola.

Temple of Juno Sospita
The temple of Juno Sospita was located between the temple of Spes and that of Janus: on its ruins, towards the end of the 11th century, the current church was founded.

Built around 195 BC by Gaius Cornelius Cethegus, it was a peripteros ionic temple, with six columns on the facade, three rows of columns on the front side and two on the back side. A travertine staircase, the same which is still used today to access the church, led to the pronaos of the temple. It was the largest of the three, since it measured 30 m in length and 15 m in width, as well as the tallest one, as can be seen by comparing the preserved columns of each of the temples. The present structure is due to the restoration commissioned by a certain Caecilia Metella in 90 BC.

The remains of the temple are the basement, which can be visited inside the church, and three columns incorporated into the facade, one of which has no capital; these columns were still visible in their original state before the facade was rebuilt. Other remains, such as some columns, are visible inside the church.

title: Forum Holitorium


text:
Talk:Yoko Kanno

Collaborator
Q: This question is for Mr. Sato, about working with Yoko Kanno, and the music that she puts together. Does that really put a lot more spirit behind your work, and make it that much more powerful when it hits the other shores or even just in Japan itself? The different themes in Cowboy Bebop and the hip hop theme in Samurai Champloo… there are some similarities with those and in other anime, but it seems that the work has to do with music to me, from the musician’s standpoint. Dai Satō: It happens by chance, but I’ve had many opportunities to work with Yoko Kanno. I collaborated with her in Cowboy Bebop and Wolf's Rain. She truly is a wonderful person. The greatness of her as a musician and a composer is her capacity to absorb all genres of music, make them her own, and respond to the demands of the directors.

http://www.japansociety.org/otaku_unmasked --Gwern (contribs) 05:08 21 January 2012 (GMT)

Kanno pronunciation?
/kɑn'no/ or /kɑno/? I think it is /kɑn'no/. The pronunciation should be added to the article.--Editor-1 (talk) 06:22, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:09, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yoko Kanno.jpg

Accusations of Plagiarism
I don't personally have time to create this section, but I was shocked to find that there was no "controversies" section for Yoko Kanno, detailing accusations of plagiarism in her work. Fans of hers know this is a significant issue.

As a jumping off point, I can provide some links to some particularly egregious examples, discussions, etc.:

'''A comparison of "Bad Dog No Biscuts" to Tom Waits' "Midtown Instrumental": '''

https://www.whosampled.com/sample/9454/Yoko-Kanno-The-Seatbelts-Bad-Dog-No-Biscuits-Tom-Waits-Midtown-(Instrumental)/

'''Official credits listed on the Cowboy Bebop soundtrack album, on which "Bad Dog No Biscuits" appears: ''' https://www.allmusic.com/album/cowboy-bebop-mw0000463771/credits

Waits is not credited anywhere, and I don't personally know if Kanno has ever acknowledged her influences.

'''A link to a larger discussion on the issue, with further examples of un-credited plagiarism: '''

https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1842863

'''There are also rumors of Kanno's involvement in the upcoming live-action Cowboy Bebop adaptation: ''' https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2020-04-19/netflix-live-action-cowboy-bebop-show-plans-season-2-teases-yoko-kanno-music/.158742

I feel that this topic may see significant debate in the lead up to and release surrounding the new show if Kanno is involved musically. Her style of music writing may bring controversy to the show in the west if it launches with music whose inspiration is not properly credited.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by MexicanSting (talk • contribs) 09:44, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

 * Previous discussions: Plagiarism 1, Plagiarism 2. The situation now is the same as before, all we've got is forums where people discuss what music they thing sounds similar, rumours, etc., which cannot be used as a source. At best it becomes original research. As before the request is for a reliable source making such claims, which nobody has managed to come up with. We can't just make such substantial accusations of impropriety in a Wikipedia biographical article without a firm source to back it up. It needs to be e.g. the words of a journalist who can stand by their research. Can you maybe find an article where one of the supposed plagiarized parties is considering suing her? Can you find a relevant public statement by Tom Waits or someone from his record company? People discussing on forums which songs they think sound too similar just isn't sufficient for this purpose. It's very clear that this idea of plagiarism is a persistent internet rumour about her, which in my opinion should make it worth addressing in the article, but as far as has been demonstrated so far this rumour has never been expressed by a source we can use. - Rainwarrior (talk) 09:39, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

The Creation
I don't have the wherewithal to add it, but it looks like there may be an album named The Creation missing from her body of work listed here. You can find recordings of it online and there are more details about it, including its reference number and whatnot, at the relevant wiki page on her fan wiki. 47.218.223.206 (talk) 15:52, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Yoko Kanno


text:
User talk:Wolrah

Welcome!
Hey there! Welcome to Wikipedia!

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Happy Wiki-ing.

(Also, here is the link to wikibooks electronics) - Omegatron 03:53, Jul 20, 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:Wolrah


text:
Green Standard Army

The Green Standard Army (Manchu: niowanggiyan turun i kūwaran) was the name of a category of military units under the control of Qing dynasty in China. It was made up mostly of ethnic Han soldiers and operated concurrently with the Manchu-Mongol-Han Eight Banner armies. In areas with a high concentration of Hui people, Muslims served as soldiers in the Green Standard Army. After the Qing consolidated control over China, the Green Standard Army was primarily used as a police force.

Origins
The original Green Standard troops were the soldiers of the Ming commanders who surrendered to the Qing in 1644 and after. Their troops enlisted voluntarily and for long terms of service; they usually came from the socially disadvantaged, and remained segregated from Chinese society, partly because of the latter's deep anti-military bias during the late Ming period, and partly because they were paid too poorly and irregularly to marry and support a family.

The Qing relied on the Green Standard soldiers, comprising defected Han Ming military forces who joined the Qing, in order to help rule northern China. It was Green Standard Han troops who actively military governed China locally while Han Bannermen, Mongol Bannermen, and Manchu Bannermen were only brought into emergency situations when there was sustained military resistance.

Koxinga and the Revolt of the Three Feudatories
The Manchus sent Han Chinese Bannermen to fight against Ming loyalists in Guangdong, Zhejiang and Fujian. The Qing carried out a massive depopulation policy and clearances, forcing people to evacuate the coast in order to deprive Koxinga's Ming loyalists of resources, leading to a myth that it was because Manchus were "afraid of water". In parts of Southern Fujian, northern Han Bannermen fought for the Qing and, in so doing, disproved the claim that the earlier coastal evacuation, which especially affected the ethnic Tanka people, was ordered by the Manchus out of fear of the water.

At the outset of the Revolt of the Three Feudatories (1673–81), four hundred thousand Green Standard Army soldiers were deployed by the Manchus/Qing against the Three Feudatories, in addition to 200,000 Bannermen. However, during 1673 and 1674, the Qing forces were soundly defeated by the forces of the rebel Wu Sangui. The Qing had the support of the majority of Han Chinese soldiers and the Han elite against the Three Feudatories and they refused to join Wu Sangui in the revolt, but the Eight Banners and Manchu officers fared poorly against Wu's forces, so the Qing responded with a massive army of more than 900,000 non-Banner Han Chinese, instead of the Eight Banners, to subdue the rebels. Wu Sangui's forces were crushed by the Green Standard Army, which was made up of defected Ming soldiers.

During the Revolt of the Three Feudatories, Manchu Generals and Bannermen were initially put to shame by the better performance of the Han Chinese Green Standard Army, which was noted by the Kangxi Emperor, leading him to task generals Sun Sike, Wang Jinbao, and Zhao Liangdong with leading Green Standard Soldiers to put down the rebellion. The Qing considered the Han Chinese to be superior fighters, so used the Green Standard Army, rather than Bannermen, as the main force in defeating the rebels.

Against Wang Fuchen in north-western China, the Qing put Bannermen in the rear as reserves. They used Han Chinese Green Standard Army soldiers and Han Chinese generals, such as Zhang Liangdong, Wang Jinbao, and Zhang Yong, as the primary military forces, and they achieved victory over the rebels. Sichuan and southern Shaanxi were retaken in 1680 by the Han Chinese Green Standard Army under Wang Jinbao and Zhao Liangdong, with Manchus only dealing with logistics and provisions. Four hundred thousand Green Standard Army soldiers and 150,000 Bannermen served on the Qing side during the war. Two hundred and thirteen Han Chinese Banner companies, and 527 companies of Mongol and Manchu Banners were mobilized by the Qing during the revolt.

Reform and decline
Reform of the Qing military system by the Kangxi Emperor during the last years of the War of the Three Feudatories led to a fundamental division of military administration and function between two branches of the Qing Army. The Eight Banners of the old Banner system were retained as a guard force for the dynasty, but Chinese and Mongol troops were progressively transferred out during the 18th century, until most Banner troops were once again ethnic Manchus.

The Qing divided the command structure of the Green Standard Army in the provinces between the high-ranking officers and low-ranking officers. The best and strongest unit was under the control of the highest-ranking officers but, at the same time, those units were outnumbered by other units, which were divided between various lower-ranking officers, so that none of them could initiate a revolt on their own against the Qing because they did not control the entire armies.

From the 18th century onwards, the Green Standard Army served primarily as a gendarmerie or constabulary, employed to maintain local law and order and quell small-scale disturbances. It also contributed the bulk of forces dispatched in major campaigns. The Green Standard Army was extremely fragmented, with literally thousands of large and small outposts throughout the empire, many with as few as twelve men. It was divided into garrisons of battalion size, reporting through regional brigade generals to commanders-in-chief in each province. Governors and governors-general each had a battalion of Green Standard troops under their personal command, but their primary duties lay in the judicial and revenue areas rather than coping with invasion or rebellion. During peacetime, it was rare for one officer to command more than 5,000 men.

Strictly speaking, the Green Standard Army was not a hereditary force, although the dynasty directed its recruiting efforts primarily at sons and other relatives of serving soldiers. Enlistment was considered a lifetime occupation, but it was generally very simple to obtain a discharge and be reclassified as a civilian.

A system of rotation was used for Green Standard troops in frontier areas. In Kashgaria, troops of the Green Standard from Shaanxi and Gansu had to serve for three-year tours of duty, later increased to five years, then returned home.

As early as the White Lotus Rebellion of 1794–1804, the Green Standard armies had begun to exhibit a decline in military effectiveness that rendered them utterly ineffective in combating rebels. At least eight factors contributed to this decline: (1) soldiers' pay did not rise with inflation, requiring most to seek outside employment to support their families; (2) wide dispersion of posts prevented centralized training while the armies' policing and civic responsibilities left little time for drilling; (3) wartime forces were created by taking small numbers of soldiers from numerous existing units rather than using existing units, breaking up unit cohesion and leading to "divisive influence, poor coordination, and operative inefficiency"; (4) vacancies in the armies' ranks were either left unfilled so officers could pocket the missing soldiers' allowances or fill positions with personal proteges; (5) rampant gambling and opium addictions; (6) the practice of allowing soldiers to hire substitutes, often beggars, to train and fight in their place; (7) infrequent drilling; (8) lax discipline due to a lack of respect for inept officers often appointed due to favoritism or nepotism.

Ma Zhan'ao, a former Muslim rebel, defected to the Qing side during the Dungan Revolt (1862–77) and his Muslim forces were then recruited into the Green Standard Army of the Qing military after the war ended.

The Qing dynasty tried to reform its armed forces into a modern, European-style national army after the First Sino-Japanese War (1894–1895) and the Boxer Rebellion (1900). The Green Standard Army was completely restructured. In 1907, the Commission on Army Reorganization recommended that the worst of the Green Standard troops be discharged, with the rest reorganized into provincial "Patrol and Defence Forces", to serve as a gendarmerie in peacetime and a reserve for the regular forces during war. About 20 to 30 per cent of the Green Standard units were slated to be dissolved. By the time of the 1911 Xinhai Revolution, the reform of those units was still in progress, but Patrol and Defence Forces had been established in almost every province.

title: Green Standard Army