text:
User talk:Crestville

Looking for a conversation we had? Wanting to re-ingnite an argument long since resolved but can't find it? Or maybe you just want to read what I've said so that you can use it in a fresh argument against me. Maybe you're a scientist doing research on how a 20yr old workshy Yorkshireman interacts with a Scouse Fireman; a British ex-pat in Austria with a girls name; a middle aged reluctant cockney who is married with children; and a KLF fan from the West Country when discussing very trivial Beatles-related matters, using various - and increasingly confusing - pseudonyms. Then why not look in my archives? They're full of hilarious altercations I've had with friends and critics, and will keep you entertained for hours. Why not try the "random discussion generator" by entering an archive and choosing a random heading, then reading the relevant text - it's pot luck madness! Or maybe you're a publisher looking for a new form of coffee table literature with a view to making one lucky, stubborn and argumentative wikipedia contributer a household name. Look no further. God has smiled upon you this day - I am your man. More likely, you're an admin, looking to see how many times I've been blocked before so you can give me a really big block becuase I've called a fellow wikipedian a "fucking useless tosser, I'll kill you!" - let me save you some time: I have never once been blocked (yes, that ought to do. What a good cover).

 * Not that it's any of my business, but--who the hell is this?  Kodster  (Talk) 22:27, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

 * This, is The Mighty Crestville, who is an all-round good chap, and worthy of the Mighty title. He's a card, a wild-card, and a Knight of humour.--andreasegde (talk) 18:18, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Oh, I thought it was someone else advertising their talk page. I didn't read the whole damn thing until now. :) Andreasegde, I was looking at Kingboyk's page and I noticed that he had a "Music Barnstar". That's the one.  Kodster  (Talk) 19:00, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

 * BTW, I thought Andreas was a boy's name. I knew Andrea is a girl's name (and your name, too, Andreasegde) but Andreas...oh, also, if you're gonna put "self-portraits" on your user page, you might think of putting flattering ones. Maybe ones that display prominently your feet and less your...  Kodster  (Talk) 19:03, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

 * I was talking to Dr. Robert, not the mighty one.  Kodster  (Talk) 19:04, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Hullo, Joe!
Keeping well? Thanks for the appreciation. LessHeard vanU (talk) 14:47, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Hello, Joe!
Hello. This is the Kodster.

I have 2 articles for you. For what? Okay, I have two articles that I think should be nominated for GA. I already told the man in the crowd with the multicolored mirrors on his hobnail boots, but who knows when he'll get up to it. So I'm asking you. Yes, that was me above. Well, who the hell is that??? [stretched out] Anyway, the two articles are:

A Hard Day's Night (song)

A Hard Day's Night (film)

I loooove both the song and the film (He's very...clean), and I think the articles are GA material. Feel free to respond on the articles' talk pages (I know you won't), my talk page, here, or anywhere else you see fit (Liverpool, par example).

Goodbye.  Kodster  (Talk) 22:27, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I think
we have a, and I thank thee gradely fer thy commentary on Macca's cricket match, tha' knows. It could be a reet guffawing session.--andreasegde (talk) 22:57, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

 * You're prob'ly sleeping (or at least you're not on Wikipedia, I presume) at this hour, but back in the West Country it's only 19:13, so...are you old 'nuf to remember the Fabs? You don't seem that old, although my age reckoning skills aren't so great.

 * I'm sorry to disturb you, Mighty Crestville.  Kodster  (Talk) 00:16, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Oh, while I'm here. Why is it that you, despite all of your contributions, only have one REAL award for them? The others are just from the monster from the black lagoon, Cod (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean), and the married one (I'll have you know that I'm married as well).  Kodster  (Talk) 00:16, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Well, I don't hand out the awards, so I don't know. But the awards from my fellow contributers and the ones I value.--Crestville (talk) 17:53, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Blackadder_the_Third.jpg
Thanks for uploading or contributing to Image:Blackadder_the_Third.jpg. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use. Suggestions on how to do so can be found here.

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Image:Baldrickpic.jpg
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Image:Bloody-greta-garbo-thumb.jpg
I have tagged Image:Bloody-greta-garbo-thumb.jpg as no rationale, because it does not provide a fair use rationale. If you believe the image to be acceptable for fair use according to Wikipedia policy, please provide a rationale explaining as much, in accordance with the fair use rationale guideline, on the image description page. Some examples can be found at Use rationale examples. Please also consider using or one of the other tags listed at Image copyright tags/Non-free. Thank you. Project FMF (talk) 23:04, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Off
I'm gonna be off soon after a couple of articles have passsed GA. I may return with my ISP address occasionally to have a laugh, and wind a couple of tits up. See ya in Brat-fud.--andreasegde (talk) 04:42, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

BTW, I thought I'd give you this:

AfD nomination of Talk:Historical anomalies in Blackadder
I have nominated Talk:Historical anomalies in Blackadder, an article you created, for deletion. I do not feel that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Talk:Historical anomalies in Blackadder. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time. Pseudomonas(talk) 19:06, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Historical anomalies in Blackadder
I have nominated Historical anomalies in Blackadder, an article you created, for deletion. I do not feel that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Articles for deletion/Historical anomalies in Blackadder. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time. Pseudomonas(talk) 19:13, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks
I thank you very kindly for your message. I left an explanation on my page. :)--andreasegde (talk) 18:00, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Blackadder page
Someone on the AFD page suggested Encyclopedia Blackaddica - might be worth a look :) Pseudomonas(talk) 23:11, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Advice Please
Hi Crestville, I need help! But that’s another story. Would you be able to take a look at I Should Have Known Better as I think what a certain user is doing is possible vandalism. However, I’m not empowered to resolve it, or am I? Could you advise please? (Then I’ll know what to do the next time). Thanks,--Patthedog (talk) 19:45, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Actually, it’s me that’s attempting to keep it as it is; not sure whether you appreciated that point. The early Dylan influence has been conceded by the band, and is generally out there in various books. The paragraph in question does cite sources, but I accept it could be worded better. The underlying point that the Beatles, and in particular, Lennon, did, for a short period, allow their music to be influenced by His Bobness, is important. And this song was the first to show this, which is why, I suppose, it is in the article. Anyway, I’m fighting for the principle that any arguments for or against should be made on the article’s discussion page first, before any major deletions. Am I right? Cheers,--Patthedog (talk) 17:05, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Cheers, will do.--Patthedog (talk) 07:12, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Alternative music Newsletters
If you missed last the previous newsletter, you can find it at WikiProject Alternative music/Newsletter/February 2008. You are receiving this newsletter because you have signed up for WikiProject Alternative music. If you wish to stop receiving this newsletter, or would like to receive it in a different form, add your name to the appropriate section here. This newsletter was delivered by the automated Giggabot (talk) 09:36, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

A Day in the Life
I beg your pardon, Mighty Crestville, but could you ever find it in your oh so honorable time to take a look at A Day in the Life? It needs work, I'm aware of that, but I'm particularly interested in the "Song structure" section. I'm working to make this my 2nd GA, and because Andreasegde has some real estate issues to deal with, I thought I would bequeath the honor unto you. I entreat that you find it in your favor to look at it. Cheers,  Kodster  (Willis) (Look what I can do) 21:18, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Just for the record, I never speak with such high regard to anyone but you, oh Mighty one. Cheers,  Kodster  (Willis) (Look what I can do) 21:18, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

 * Once again I beg your pardon, but I feel that it is in order to remind you, oh Mighty Crestville, that you in all of your mercy agreed to look at Song structure of A Day in the Life. It is in human nature to forget, I understand, and that is why I humbly remind you of your agreement, which you did from the depths of your heart. Thank you for your time, mighty One. Cheers,  Kodster  (Willis) (Look what I can do) 19:37, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I've had this on peer review for a day or so, but to no avail. It's gonna be a while before Thriller becomes an FA, which Realist2 is busy working on and is the reason why he's not doing a PR on A Day in the Life. Thanks for looking it over. Cheers,  Kodster  (Willis) (Look what I can do) 16:21, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:ALRIGHT7.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:ALRIGHT7.jpg. You've indicated that the image meets Wikipedia's criteria for non-free content, but there is no explanation of why it meets those criteria. Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. If you have any questions, please post them at Media copyright questions.

Thank you for your cooperation. NOTE: once you correct this, please remove the tag from the image's page. STBotI (talk) 19:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Alternative music Newsletter
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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Oasis' Cigarettes & Alchohol single cover.jpg)
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Interesting
He changed his name from Vikrant Phadkay to Ultraviolet scissor flame, he has been blocked twice as a vandal for being a page blanker [Phadkay]. He also failed spectacularly when he tried to be a Wikipedia Admin Requests for adminship/Vikrant Phadkay. He is also a master sock puppeteer, Paerduug, and then when he realised he had given himself away, he tried to cover it up  81.130.223.198

You should see the debate on him at the Paul McCartney Talk Page. 81.130.223.198 (talk) 14:16, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

FPC I'd Like Help With
I was just wondering if you wouldn't mind going to Portal:James Bond. I'd really appreciate any criticisms or support that you could provide for this Featured portal candidate. Thanks. Ultra! 00:03, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

 * I'm not familiar enough with the subject matter and, from the anonymous message above, you appear to have some connection with my old nemesis paedrug - you'll understand I don't wish to be goaded into an arugument, especially with regards to a subject I'm not especially passionate about. Good luck all the same!--Crestville (talk) 16:19, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

 * Hey, Joe! Where you gonna go...? Here (Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents) might be a destination. You will never guess the identity of the person who brought this matter up... Oh, you are fast! Cheers, mate. LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:18, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Me
Thanks for the kind (and very funny) words in that discussion about me coming home rat-arsed and kicking the dog because it shat in me slippers. In't life grand? :))--andreasegde (talk) 20:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

"LVTY"
Wassat? LeaveVissToYou? LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:01, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

George Smith (John Lennon)
You will like this - Georgie is up for a GA.--andreasegde (talk) 13:11, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

 * The short, but stocky, milkman passed, and is now a GA. :) --andreasegde (talk) 22:29, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Nah, all I did was clean it up, and add what little more info I could find. You started it, and that's more important. I would have never started it, 'cos Georgie could have been on Dragon Mimi's page, but the s*#ts at FA that wanted him cut out.--andreasegde (talk) 14:18, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

User page
Hey, i noticed your user page is really long, if you set it out like i have done here you lists will be more compact. Its just a suggestion for you as its a lot of scrolling, anyway have a nice day, if you need help give me a bell. -- Realist 2 ( Come Speak To Me ) 16:00, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Alternative music newsletter
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Orphaned non-free media (Image:Fawlty towers.jpg)
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English 'is' vs 'are'
ok man in britain they count collective nouns as plural but I'm just saying, every germanic and romance language does not Nick (talk) 17:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

sorry for bringing up shit from grammatical edits from 2005 but according to the wikipedia page on collective nouns, if you are referring to a group of people as a whole without referring to interaction between its members then the sentence uses formal agreement, so "Oasis is from Britain" is the correct sentence in both Britain and America

check out the wikipedia page on collective noun Nick (talk) 17:38, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The Beatles Newsletter
Beatles editor, Dendodge, wants to start sending out The Beatles Newsletter again. If you would like to receive it, please leave a message on this page. All the best, --andreasegde (talk) 17:27, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Alternative music newsletter
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Noel Gallagher
Hi. I'm translating the article "Noel Gallagher" to Spanish, and I may need some help to understand several sentences. As I've seen you've widely contributed to that article, I thought it'd be a good idea to ask you to answer the questions I've asked at Talk:Noel Gallagher. Thanks. --Pabletex (talk) 00:56, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Oasis Lyrics
I've seen you like Oasis very much and I just wanted to ask you which website with their lyrics you would recommend me. Thanks a lot. --Pabletex (talk) 02:42, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * (Cool smiley emotion)!--Play Brian Moore (talk) 18:46, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Beatles newsletter July 2008

 * Want to help on next month's newsletter? Don't want to receive these in future? Don't want it subst'd next time? – It's all here.

...... Densock  .. Talk (Dendodge on a public network) 10:07, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Image:Father_ted_cast.jpg
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Fair use rationale for Image:Somemightsay1.jpg
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WikiProject Alternative Music Newsletter for July 2008
SoxBot II (talk) 03:12, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

the The
Yes folks, it’s the The time again. You might like to add your opinion (whatever it may be) on this page.--andreasegde (talk) 14:45, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:Peter Kay in That Peter Kay Thing.jpg)
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WikiProject Alternative Music Newsletter for August 2008
SoxBot II (talk) 21:35, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Alternative Music Newsletter for September 2008
SoxBot II (talk) 19:57, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Nursie
I have nominated Nursie, an article you created, for deletion. I do not think that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Articles for deletion/Nursie. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time. ≈  The Haunted Angel  23:14, 9 October 2008 (UTC) ≈  The Haunted Angel  23:14, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Alternative Music Newsletter for October 2008
SoxBot II (talk) 02:44, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject The Beatles newsletter issue 16 - November 2008

 * Want to help on next month's newsletter? Don't want to receive these in future? Don't want it subst'd next time? – It's all here.

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WikiProject Alternative Music Newsletter for November 2008
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WikiProject Alternative Music Newsletter for December 2008
SoxBot II (talk) 17:38, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Tripping down memory lane?
What are you doing back here? ;~} LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:36, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject Alternative Music Newsletter for February 2009
SoxBot II (talk) 03:06, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Right on!
--Falegas (talk) 19:30, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject Alternative Music Newsletter for March 2009
SoxBot II (talk) 02:06, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:Oasis 1995-1999.jpg
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WikiProject Alternative Music Newsletter for April 2009
SoxBot (talk) 10:50, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject Alternative Music Newsletter for May 2009
SoxBot (talk) 10:50, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject Alternative Music Newsletter for June 2009
SoxBot (talk) 22:43, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject Alternative Music Newsletter for July 2009
SoxBot (talk) 08:03, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject Alternative Music Newsletter for August 2009
SoxBot (talk) 15:20, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Unreferenced BLPs
Hello Crestville! Thank you for your contributions. I am a bot alerting you that 6 of the articles that you created  are tagged as Unreferenced Biographies of Living Persons. Please note that all biographies of living persons must be sourced. If you were to add reliable, secondary sources to these articles, it would greatly help us with the current Category:All_unreferenced_BLPs article backlog. Once the articles are adequately referenced, please remove the unreferencedBLP tag. Here is the list:

Thanks!--DASHBot (talk) 21:03, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Gem Archer -
 * 2) Syd Little -
 * 3) Eddie Large -
 * 4) Peter Wilkinson (musician) -
 * 5) Mick Head -
 * 6) Dave Brown (comedian) -

Articles for deletion nomination of Live Demonstration
I have nominated Live Demonstration, an article that you created, for deletion. I do not think that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Articles for deletion/Live Demonstration. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time.Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 23:08, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

May 2010
Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at Michael Jackson. Your edits appear to constitute vandalism and have been reverted or removed. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you. Rodhull andemu  14:32, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Those that can...
Say it ain't so, Joe! LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:02, 6 May 2010 (UTC) That is two quotes, well 1 and a 1/2, and nothing else in 1 message!

 * Oh aye!--Crestville (talk) 22:07, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

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Orphaned non-free image File:Only Fools and Horses car.jpg
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File:Cookie club 08-02-06 006.jpg listed for deletion
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WP:DAD
This Project is inactive, so I have proposed a conversion into task force. Please improve consensus if you can by joining discussion. --George Ho (talk) 04:50, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Paul McCartney FAC
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Proposed deletion of Hollywood Minute

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Nomination of Warren (Porridge) for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Warren (Porridge) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Warren (Porridge) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

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Orphaned non-free media (File:Only Fools and Horses 3.jpg)
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October 2013
Hello, I'm John Cline. I wanted to let you know that I undid one of your recent contributions, such as the one you made with this edit to Snake, because it didn’t appear constructive to me. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks. —John Cline (talk) 07:54, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Nomination of Captain Blackadder for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Captain Blackadder is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

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Orphaned non-free image File:Rollwithit1.jpg
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May 2015
Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at Steve Womack. Your edits appear to constitute vandalism and have been reverted or removed. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Repeated vandalism can result in the loss of editing privileges. Thank you.Crboyer (talk) 05:12, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

You have been blocked indefinitely from editing for abuse of editing privileges. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you may appeal this block by first reading the guide to appealing blocks, then adding the following text below this notice:. --Bongwarrior (talk) 05:23, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

File source problem with File:Picture of the Arcadians (band).jpg
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Nomination of Kevin Rebecchi for deletion
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File permission problem with File:Samual Lister.jpg
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Proposed deletion of File:Crestville Sir.jpg

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Proposed deletion of John Head (musician)

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title: User talk:Crestville


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Twisted Tales of Spike McFang

Kiddie-wiki from the Ninth Rung of Hades. Listed for cleanup, but it wouldn't break my heart to delete this and start from scratch. - Lucky 6.9 17:27, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Gosh, that article sucks. It looks like the anonymous creator copied and pasted it from a website?  Delete; I'm not sure it would warrant an article even if written better.  --Ardonik 19:12, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete: The last word of the article (before the name) says it all.  Nonsense, review, cheat, easter egg. Geogre 20:13, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

pointless tosh --195.10.45.233 04:51, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Real game, but not an encyclopedia article. Delete. -- Cyrius|✎ 19:58, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
Talk:Halal

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 August 2019 and 16 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Zoeprovidence.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 23:00, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Confusion on internal inconsistency
Two quotes directly from the article: Halal meat is "stun-free", so it violates RSPCA standards on animal welfare and is against the law in the EU, ... and... The animal may be stunned prior to having its throat cut. [...] Supermarkets selling halal products also report that all animals are stunned before they are slaughtered. Tesco, for example, says "the only difference between the halal meat it sells and other meat is that it was blessed as it was killed." As someone who is neither in knowledge of the Islam faith nor the UK laws, I find this extremely confusing, and uncertain as to whether one or the other has been misquoted or explained poorly. Is it possible to add a line somewhere to clarify the (appearing) discrepancy, or otherwise correct the misinformation (if that is what it is)? Kurasu (talk) 10:50, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Yorkshire Video
I propose edits that explain the Yorkshire video from December 2014 and how Halal was violated. --Sdenkmann (talk) 23:26, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
 * As I wrote in my edit summary, there was a problem with how your addition was phrased; see WP:EDITORIALIZING for more detail. Also, the cited source doesn't seem to establish this episode as sufficiently relevant to the subject of the article and prominent in that context. A couple of Muslims who claimed to run a halal butchery were caught violating halal rules. Why should this be covered in an encyclopedic article about halal? Eperoton (talk) 02:26, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Meat slaughtered or prepared by People of the Book
This section needs help. As I read it today, it seems to mix Islamic and Jewish slaughtering practices in the same paragraph, leaving me unsure who does what. Also, the Ethiopian Orthodox slit an animal's jugular saying "In the name of the Father (and Son and Holy Ghost)." Is something similar found in other Orthodox communities? Or is this something that developed in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church to distinguish themselves from Muslims? Pete unseth (talk) 14:21, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Article needs to be split
The term "halal" is concept in Islamic law meaning permissible. It is also popularly used to describe food deemed permissible by Islam. These are two different concepts and I think this article needs to be split.VR talk 02:21, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Actually Islamic dietary laws already exists, so most of the content from this article should be moved there.VR talk 02:23, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Page protection requested
For info. -Roxy the dog . wooF 17:02, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

 * Page is temporarily semi-protected to stop the (potentially good faith) addition of unsourced and poorly formatted text. Apologies if this protection obstructs any IP editor wanting to make unrelated changes to the article. Feel free to propose those unrelated edits here via the edit-request template so they can be considered for inclusion on the page. -- Euryalus (talk) 22:41, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Halal


text:
United States Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs

The United States Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs (formerly the Committee on Banking and Currency), also known as the Senate Banking Committee, has jurisdiction over matters related to banks and banking, price controls, deposit insurance, export promotion and controls, federal monetary policy, financial aid to commerce and industry, issuance of redemption of notes, currency and coinage, public and private housing, urban development, mass transit and government contracts.

The current chair of the committee is Democrat Sherrod Brown of Ohio, and the Ranking Member is Republican Tim Scott of South Carolina.

History
The committee is one of twenty standing committees in the United States Senate. The committee was formally established as the "Committee on Banking and Currency" in 1913, when Senator Robert L. Owen of Oklahoma sponsored the Federal Reserve Act. Senator Owen served as the committee's inaugural chairman.

Jurisdiction
In accordance with Rule XXV of the United States Senate, all proposed legislation, messages, petitions, memorials, and other matters relating to the following subjects are referred to the Senate Banking Committee:

 * 1) Banks, banking, and financial institutions;
 * 2) Control of the prices of commodities, rents, and services;
 * 3) Deposit insurance;
 * 4) Economic stabilization and defense production;
 * 5) Export and foreign trade promotion;
 * 6) Export controls;
 * 7) Federal monetary policy, including the Federal Reserve System;
 * 8) Financial aid to commerce and industry;
 * 9) Issuance and redemption of notes;
 * 10) Money and credit, including currency and coinage;
 * 11) Nursing home construction;
 * 12) Public and private housing (including veterans' housing);
 * 13) Renegotiation of Government contracts; and,
 * 14) Urban development and urban mass transit.

The Senate Banking Committee is also charged to "study and review, on a comprehensive basis, matters relating to international economic policy as it affects United States monetary affairs, credit, and financial institutions; economic growth, urban affairs, and credit, and report thereon from time to time."

117th Congress

 * Subcommittees

116th Congress

 * Subcommittees

115th Congress
Subcommittees

114th Congress
Subcommittees


text:
Edward Hitchcock

Edward Hitchcock (May 24, 1793 – February 27, 1864) was an American geologist and the third President of Amherst College (1845–1854).

Life

Born to poor parents, he attended newly founded Deerfield Academy, where he was later principal, from 1815 to 1818. In 1821 he was ordained as a Congregationalist pastor and served as pastor of the Congregational Church in Conway, Massachusetts, 1821–1825. He left the ministry to become Professor of Chemistry and Natural History at Amherst College. He held that post from 1825 to 1845, serving as Professor of Natural Theology and Geology from 1845 until his death in 1864. In 1845, Hitchcock became President of the College, a post he held until 1854. As president, Hitchcock was responsible for Amherst's recovery from severe financial difficulties. He is also credited with developing the college's scientific resources and establishing its reputation for scientific teaching.

In addition to his positions at Amherst, Hitchcock was a well-known early geologist. He ran the first geological survey of Massachusetts, and in 1830 was appointed state geologist of Massachusetts (he held the post until 1844). He also played a role in the geological surveys of New York and Vermont. His chief project, however, was natural theology, which attempted to unify and reconcile science and religion, focusing on geology. His major work in this area was The Religion of Geology and Its Connected Sciences (1851). In this book, he sought out ways to re-interpret the Bible to agree with the latest geological theories. For example, knowing that the earth was at least hundreds of thousands of years old, vastly older than the 6,000 years posited by Biblical scholars, Hitchcock devised a way to read the original Hebrew so that a single letter in Genesis—a "v", meaning "afterwards"—implied the vast timespans during which the earth was formed. Randy Moore described Hitchcock as "America's leading advocate of catastrophism-based gap creationism."

Hitchcock left his mark in paleontology. He discovered some of the first fossil fishes in the United States. He published papers on fossilized tracks in the Connecticut Valley, including Eubrontes and Otozoum, that were later associated with dinosaurs, though he believed, with a certain prescience, that they were made by gigantic ancient birds. In the Hitchcock Ichnological Cabinet he established a remarkable collection of fossil footmarks. His son, Edward "Doc" Hitchcock Jr., named one of the earliest dinosaurs discovered in North America and the United States, Megadactylus polyzelus. Later it was reclassified as the type specimen of Anchisaurus polyzelus (ACM 41109), a prosauropod. This botanist is denoted by the author abbreviation '''  E.Hitchc. ''' when citing a botanical name.

As he had researched the geologic lake which once filled the Connecticut River basin, this prehistoric lake was named after him. Since he had done geological research on the Holyoke Range, one of the mountains there, Mount Hitchcock, was named after him.

He was elected a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences in 1834. From 1856 to 1861, Hitchcock was the State Geologist for Vermont.

In 1841, he was elected as a member to the American Philosophical Society.

His collections, a bust and portrait can be viewed at the Amherst College Museum of Natural History. The Archives and Special Collections at Amherst holds his papers.

In 1821, he married Orra White, one of the earliest women botanical and scientific illustrators in the U.S. The two worked closely together, and she contributed more than 1,000 illustrations to his many scientific publications.

Paleontological chart
He inserted a paleontological chart in his Elementary Geology (1840). It shows a branching diagram of the plant and animal kingdom against a geological background. He referred to it as a tree. This "tree of life" is the earliest known version that incorporates paleontological and geological information.

Hitchcock was an advocate of gap creationism. Hitchcock saw God as the agent of change. He explicitly rejected evolution and a religious six-day creation. He believed that new species were introduced by a deity at the right time in the history of the earth. The chart is present in all editions between 1840 and 1859. After Charles Darwin (1859) published his On the Origin of Species, a tree of life image was generally interpreted as an evolutionary tree. In the 1860 edition of Elementary Geology Hitchcock dropped the chart. In 1863 Hitchcock wrote an article in which he criticized Darwin’s theory of natural selection. After his death in 1864, his son Charles Henry Hitchcock (1836–1919) published a new edition (1870) also without a paleontological chart. Charles then published books and articles of his own.

Writings

 * Geology of the Connecticut Valley (1823)
 * "Retrospection: A Sermon Delivered at Amherst, MA, at Close of Spring Term". May 13, 1823. Northampton, MA: Sylvester Judd, Jr., 1823.
 * Catalogue of the Plants within Twenty Miles of Amherst (1829)
 * An Essay on Temperance, Addressed Particularly to Students, and the Young Men of America(1830)
 * Elementary Geology, 1840. (31 editions)
 * The Religion of Geology and its Connected Sciences (1851)
 * Dyspepsy Forestalled and Resisted, Or, Lectures on Diet, Regimen, and Employment
 * Lectures on the Peculiar Phenomena of the Four Seasons (1850)
 * Reports on the Geology of Massachusetts (1833, 1835, 1838, 1841)
 * Outline of the Geology of the Globe and of the United States in Particular with Sketches of Characteristic American Fossils (1853)
 * Illustrations of Surface Geology (1857)
 * Reminiscences of Amherst College (1863)

title: Edward Hitchcock


text:
Louis E. Denfeld

Louis Emil Denfeld (April 13, 1891 – March 28, 1972) was an admiral in the United States Navy who served as Chief of Naval Operations from December 15, 1947 to November 1, 1949. He also held several significant surface commands during World War II, and after the war he served as the dual-hatted commander of United States Pacific Command and Pacific Fleet.

Life and naval career
Born in Westborough, Massachusetts, Denfeld graduated from the United States Naval Academy in 1912. He took command of the destroyer USS McCall (DD-28) in 1919 and served aboard the submarine USS S-24 (SS-129) during 1923 and 1924. He commanded Destroyer Division 11 from 1935 to 1937.

Denfeld was selected to be aide to the Chief of Naval Operations in 1939, then commanded first Destroyer Division 18, then Destroyer Squadron 1 from 1939 to 1941. He served as Chief of Staff to the Commander of the United States Atlantic Fleet, Admiral Royal E. Ingersoll. For planning of safe routes for escort convoys in this capacity, Denfeld received the Legion of Merit. He became head of the Atlantic Fleet Support Force in 1941, then assistant chief to the Bureau of Navigation in 1942. He led Battleship Division 9 in 1945, was appointed Chief of the Bureau of Personnel in 1945, and commanded United States Pacific Command and Pacific Fleet in 1947.

On February 28, 1947 Denfeld was named Military Governor of the Marshall Islands, Caroline Islands, and Mariana Islands, replacing Admiral John H. Towers. Denfeld was appointed Chief of Naval Operations on December 15, 1947. Due to his role in the "Revolt of the Admirals", he was detached from duty by the Secretary of the Navy Francis P. Matthews on November 1, 1949, and retired in 1950.

Denfeld was a candidate for Governor of Massachusetts in 1950. He lost the Republican nomination to Arthur W. Coolidge. Denfield died in Westborough, Massachusetts at the age of 80. He is buried at Arlington National Cemetery. Denfeld Avenue in Kensington, Maryland, is named for him.

Awards and decorations
Admiral Louis E. Denfeld received many decorations during his career. Here is his ribbon bar:

title: Louis E. Denfeld


text:
Mary Institute and St. Louis Country Day School

MICDS (Mary Institute and Saint Louis Country Day School) is a secular, co-educational, independent school home to more than 1,250 students ranging from grades Junior Kindergarten through 12. Its 110 acre campus is located in the St. Louis suburb of Ladue.

Each of the school's three divisions operate somewhat independently as a "school within a school". The Lower School, also referred to as The Ronald S. Beasley School, or "Beasley" for short, is for students in grades junior kindergarten through 4. The MICDS Middle School, grades 5 to 8, is in the former Mary Institute facilities. The Upper School on the former Country Day School campus serves grades 9 through 12.

History
William Greenleaf Eliot, founder and chancellor of Washington University in St. Louis, established predecessor institutions to MICDS in the 1850s as part of the university. A boys' school, Smith Academy, was founded in 1854.

A sister school for girls, Mary Institute, was founded in 1859 and was named for Eliot's late daughter Mary Rhodes Eliot, who had died at 17. In its early years, Mary Institute moved twice within the city of St. Louis; its third building, at the corner of Lake and Waterman, is now New City School.

Smith Academy closed in June 1917, in part due to the proliferation of private elementary schools and public secondary schools in the area. Three months later, St. Louis Country Day School opened in northwestern St. Louis County. Inspired by the Country Day School movement nationally, it was not related to Smith, although a number of former Smith students enrolled that first year. St. Louis Country Day School's campus was in a bucolic setting reached by electric streetcar, far removed from the noise and grit of the city.

Mary Institute moved to its Ladue campus in 1931 and became independent of Washington University in 1949. The Mary Institute building contains a three-figure bronze sculpture by Cyrus Dallin: Alma Mater, honoring schoolmaster Edmund Hamilton Sears and donated by Eliza Northrop McMillan. By the 1950s, the tranquility of the Country Day campus was disrupted by the growth of the adjacent Lambert–Saint Louis International Airport. St. Louis Country Day School moved to a new campus next to Mary Institute in Ladue in 1958, and eventually sold its old campus to the airport.

Eliot's grandson, Nobel laureate T. S. Eliot, who attended Mary Institute's kindergarten and Smith Academy, spoke at Mary Institute's centennial in 1959. Although various connections, including theatrical cooperation, had existed between Mary Institute and St. Louis Country Day School for years, academic coordination between Mary Institute and Country Day began during the 1970s and culminated in the 1992 merger of the schools.

St. Louis Country Day headmaster John Johnson, who coordinated the merger, became head of the combined schools. The school observed its sesquicentennial during a celebration that ran from May 11, 2009, to May 11, 2010.

In 2013, MICDS opened a STEM building on the Upper School campus that contained classrooms, an auditorium, a hearth room, and student commons. The space also contains conference rooms, a faculty office space and work center, a robotics garage, and a science lab for independent research. The building is certified as LEED Platinum.

Athletics
MICDS teams have won 32 state championships and 41 district championships.

The school has one of the few high school cycling teams in St. Louis. They competed in the Tour De St. Louis in 2009; two MICDS riders finished with the peloton.

MICDS has an athletic rivalry with the nearby John Burroughs School. MICDS observes its Homecoming on the weekend when all the teams play Burroughs; there is a traditional bonfire and pep rally to inspire team spirit. MICDS also has a cross-state rivalry with The Pembroke Hill School in Kansas City.

Pro Football Hall of Fame inductee Marv Levy began his coaching career here in 1951, staying for two years.

The women's varsity field hockey team won the Midwest Championships in 2013, 2014, and 2015.

Men's water polo finished third in the state in 2014.

The Men's lacrosse team has won eight state championships, including six straight championships since 2014 under head coach Andy Kay.

Athletic facilities
In 2016, MICDS began construction on the O'Hara field and stadium, which replaced Ellis Field. It is used for football, lacrosse, and soccer. The same year, MICDS also began construction on The Steward Family Aquatic Center, which features a pool with a bulkhead in the center, allowing two teams to practice at the same time. The pool is also longer and the lanes are wider. It is also deep enough to allow the diving team to practice on campus.

In 2011, a donor offered to fund the construction of an ice hockey arena, but the city of Ladue rejected the proposal and the arena was never built. The team practices off campus.

Business

 * Morton May, chairman, May Department Stores
 * John McDonnell, chairman, McDonnell-Douglas Corporation
 * William F. Ruprecht, CEO, Sotheby's Auction House
 * George Herbert Walker IV, chairman and CEO of Neuberger Berman

Government and politics

 * Jasmine Crockett, U.S. representative
 * John Danforth, U.S. senator and Episcopal priest
 * Thomas Eagleton, U.S. senator and Democratic nominee for vice president of the United States
 * William McChesney Martin, Jr., Federal Reserve Bank chairman
 * Mark McCloskey, attorney and U.S. Senate candidate
 * James W. Symington, U.S. representative
 * Pete Wilson, mayor of San Diego, U.S. senator, and governor of California
 * Alan Webber, mayor of Santa Fe, New Mexico

Sports and entertainment

 * Drew Baur, co-owner, St. Louis Cardinals
 * Graham Bensinger, sports broadcaster
 * Joe Buck, sports broadcaster
 * Dwight F. Davis, founder of the Davis Cup international tennis competition and U.S. Secretary of War (attended CDS precursor Smith Academy)
 * William DeWitt, Jr., owner, St. Louis Cardinals
 * Betty Grable (attended, did not graduate), actress and World War II pin-up girl
 * Jim Lee, comic book artist and publisher
 * Robby McGehee, 1999 Indianapolis 500 Rookie of the Year
 * Vincent Price, actor
 * Devon Windsor, model
 * Michael Scherer, football coach at University of Nevada, Las Vegas

Arts, sciences, and education

 * William S. Barker, president of Covenant Theological Seminary (St. Louis), 1977–1984
 * Sally Benson, author of Meet Me in St. Louis and Junior Miss
 * Louis Daniel Brodsky, poet
 * Sterling K. Brown, actor (This Is Us, Black Panther, Marshall)
 * Edmond La Beaume Cherbonnier, professor and scholar of religious studies
 * Winston Churchill (novelist), author of Richard Carvel, The Crisis, and The Crossing, among others.
 * William Henry Danforth, chancellor, Washington University in St. Louis
 * T.S. Eliot, poet (attended CDS precursor Smith Academy)
 * Peg Fenwick, screenwriter and playwright
 * Irving Fisher, economist, statistician, inventor, and Progressive social campaigner (attended CDS precursor Smith Academy)
 * Landon Jones, editor and author
 * Shepherd Mead, author, How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying
 * Vincent Price, actor, art historian and collector, gourmet cook
 * Nick Reding, journalist and author of Methland: The Death and Life of an American Small Town
 * Hadley Richardson, first wife of Ernest Hemingway
 * Irma S. Rombauer, author of Joy of Cooking
 * Frederick Seidel, poet
 * Margaret M. Barbour Stone, writer
 * Peter Taylor, short-story writer and novelist
 * Sara Teasdale, poet
 * Harry Weber (sculptor)
 * Linda Wells, founder and editor-in-chief, Allure magazine; annual guest judge on the Bravo reality television series Shear Genius


text:
Armalite and ballot box strategy

Armalite and ballot box was a political catchphrase used to define the strategy pursued by Irish republicans from 1981 up until the 1994 IRA ceasefire in which Sinn Féin ceased its policies of election boycott and abstentionism and instead contested elections in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, while the Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) pursued an armed campaign to end Northern Ireland's status as part of the United Kingdom.

Armalite refers to the AR-15 and AR-18 ArmaLite rifles. The Armalite corporation initially manufactured both; later Colt did so. The IRA smuggled significant quantities of these rifles into Northern Ireland during the early 1970s, and the "Armalite" became a symbol of republican armed struggle.

History
The strategy emerged after the 1981 Irish hunger strike as a response to the electoral success of Bobby Sands in the April 1981 Fermanagh and South Tyrone by-election and pro-hunger strike campaigners in the Northern Ireland local elections and Republic of Ireland Dáil Éireann elections of the same year. It was first formulated by Sinn Féin organiser Danny Morrison at the party's Ard Fheis (Annual Conference) on 31 October 1981, when he said:

"Who here really believes we can win the war through the ballot box? But will anyone here object if, with a ballot paper in this hand and an Armalite in the other, we take power in Ireland?"

The strategy was a mixed success. Sinn Féin had a solid core of 9-13 percent of the vote in Northern Ireland, which gave the party some credibility on the international stage. However, at home, it highlighted the non-violent Social Democratic and Labour Party's (SDLP's) dominance in Northern nationalist politics, while Sinn Féin's vote in the Republic remained tiny once the emotion generated by the 1981 hunger strike subsided.

In the longer term, it had two significant political consequences, each of which fed into the emergent Northern Ireland peace process. When the governments of the UK and the Republic of Ireland drafted the Anglo-Irish Agreement, this convinced many in Sinn Féin that it was possible to make political gains without violence. However, Sinn Féin's electoral setbacks, such as the loss of 16 of the party's 59 council seats in 1989, pushed the emphasis of the Republican movement away from the Armalite and towards an election-focused strategy.

On 12 August 1994, just 19 days before the first IRA ceasefire, Danny Morrison declared that the Armalite and Ballot Box approach was over, and stated that "different times require different strategies". By that time, a confidential paper had been released within the IRA and Sinn Féin, referred to as the "TUAS document". The TUAS (Total Unarmed Strategy) set the goal of achieving a wide Irish nationalist consensus among the main nationalist players (Sinn Féin, SDLP and the Republic) with strong international support (especially from the U.S. and the European Union).

Legacy
The Armalite and ballot box strategy has also been cited as having inspired members of the Loyalist Ulster Defence Association such as John McMichael to seek a similar route into electoral politics through vehicles such as the Ulster Loyalist Democratic Party (later Ulster Democratic Party (UDP)). However, parties directly linked to Loyalist paramilitaries had minimal success in elections in Northern Ireland, with the combined electoral share of the UDP and the Progressive Unionist Party (PUP) failing to exceed 1% before the May 1996 elections for the Northern Ireland Forum.

title: Armalite and ballot box strategy


text:
Talk:Shatt al-Arab

Avesta
I found it somewhere:

در اوستا اگرچه از نام خلیج فارس بطور صریح نام برده نشده اما در مهر یشت در مبحث مهر یا میترا اشاره‌ای نیز به اروندرود شده‌است که در آن دوره «ارونگ» گفته می‌شده‌است و چنین آمده: «دارنده دشت‌های فراخ» و «اسب‌های تیزرو» که از سخن راستین آگاه است و پهلوانی است خوش اندام و نبرد آزما، دارای هزار گوش و هزار چشم و هزار چستی و چالاکی یاد شده، کسی است که جنگ و پیروزی با اوست، هرگز نمی‌خسبد، هرگز فریب نمی‌خورد، اگر کسی با او پیمان شکند خواه در شرق هندوستان باشد یا بر دهنه شط ارنگ، از ناوک او گریز ندارد، او نخستین ایزد معنوی است که پیش از طلوع خورشید فنا ناپذیر تیز اسب بر بالای کوه هرا بر می‌آید و از آن جایگاه بلند سراسر منزلگاه‌های آریایی را می‌نگرد.

It says that in Avesta in Mihr yasht it's name has been mentioned. But I checked mihr yasht, and It was not there. Can someone recheck it, as I'm sure it is there in Avesta. --Wayiran (talk) 18:47, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

 * Dear Wayiran, you should have looked for Raηhā, or simply Rangha (which is the equivalent of Arang); if you had done so, you would have found the following:

 * XXVII

 * 104. 'We sacrifice unto Mithra, the lord of wide pastures, .... sleepless, and ever awake; 'Whose long arms, strong with Mithra-strength, encompass what he seizes in the easternmost river and what he beats with the westernmost river, what is by the Sanaka of the Rangha and what is by the boundary of the earth.

 * Please note the reference to both "Rangha" and "the westernmost river". Kind regards, --BF 20:22, 15 March 2009 (UTC).

On 15 March 2009 Wayiran added to the article the following unqualified assertion: Also "Arang", the other form of "Arvand", has been mentioned in [the] Avesta. The accompanying reference: Avesta, Mihr yasht, section 27, paragraph 104. (the text cited by BF above).

It has two problems: it doesn't appear to be correct, and as currently presented it is a direct interpretation of a very complex primary source (thus infringing our no original research policy, which clearly states that [a]ny interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation.).

Iranica's article on the Arvand-Ruud clearly asserts that no river "Arvand" is mentioned in the Avesta (or in the Bundahishn). As for the identification of the Rangha river of the Avesta (described in Iranica's article on the Arang as "primarily mythical") with the Arvand, the article on the Arvand-Ruud points either to:
 * a confusion between Arang and Arvand, originated from the fact that in Pahlavi both names differ in a single stroke.
 * a posterior attempt to identify the Rangha/Arang of the Avesta with something concrete (a Persian horror vacui of sorts).

This is hardly surprising, considering that -as Iranica's article on Avestan geography mentions- "[g]eographical references in the Avesta are limited to the regions on the eastern Iranian plateau and on the Indo-Iranian border."

In short, no Arvand or Shatt al-Arab in the Avesta. - Best, Ev (talk) 15:34, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * As per edit summary: your message here is ignored because 1. you do not know what you are talking about. 2. the edit we have made says: Arang is old Iranian and tends to be identified with Arvand (well-sourced). Our sentence does not say Arang is Arvand. Is that clear? 3. Now the source to the previous sentence in the article says why Arvand is Tigris. Is that clear too? In short, here only one name has historical value.--Xashaiar (talk) 15:48, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

 * No Xashaiar, it is not clear.
 * 2. The sentence you added ("Even much older is the name "Arang" as mentioned in Avesta which tends to be identified with the river Arvand.") is not particularly clear, is misleading -making a broad unqualified affirmation that can be interpreted in many different manners- and is most definitely not well-sourced, as it cherry-picks one particular fragment of a sentence from Iranica's article on the Arang ignoring the rest of the text & the other articles mentioned in my post above.
 * 3. No, it is not clear. Would you please elaborate ?
 * And yes, I can appreciate that edits to these articles do not aim at providing our readers with mere information, but at advocating that the Farsi name is the only one with "historical value", and the one everyone should use. That much is clear. - Regards, Ev (talk) 16:55, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 1. You gave free proof of my first claim that "you do not know what you are talking about"! 2. There is one thing called "clicking". Click on the link to Avesta to see the reason to include words: "OLDER" and "EVEN". These are also WP:V. 3. The source says exactly what I have added. Therefore WP:RS and WP:V. 4. According to wikipedia rules this can be included. Very useful, related, and historical piece of information (unlike obverse of, certain banknotes: which should give an answer to your last accusation: comparing to these edits, it is clear what is my agenda and yours: "finding out the relevance of adding "Daf is depicted on obverse of certain banknote" to "History of Daf" is called "quiz of the year". Other editors may be able to answer this quiz.).--Xashaiar (talk) 17:10, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

 * Ev is correct. Both with respect to the fact that the EIr is being misinterpreted, and with respect to the fact that the Avesta knows nothing about places in Western Iran (leave alone places in Mesopotamia/Babylonia). Indeed, it would seem that BF already knew that before he began soapboxing.
 * I would like to commend Ev's infinite patience in dealing with the nationalists. It is thanks to dedicated people like him that Wikipedia is not a complete pile of crap. Those interested in knowing the 9th-11th century rationale for identifying a mythological river with variously the Tigris or the Nile (or something else) can drop me a line at my talk page. -- Fullstop (talk) 19:28, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

 * Thank you. :-) Ev (talk) 20:20, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

 * As usual you are not even wrong. 1. EIr is RS. 2. It states explicitly Arang... tends to be identified with the river Arvand (wasn't folk etymology your only available reasoning?). If one respected scholar states a possible identification, then why it should not be included? 3. Thanks to myself that do not allow creation of fictional dead links, this wikipedia will become a better place. 4. You call me nationalist, isn't it better than being homeless?--Xashaiar (talk) 19:47, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

 * Xashaiar, could you please try to stay on-topic.
 * 2a. A sentence snippet isolated from its context does not convey a text's meaning. You should know this.

 * 2b. If a respected scholar mentions a possible identification, that fact can usually be included; but in a clear manner and providing the proper context. We could mention that "Scholar John Doe considers that X could be identified with Y [ref], and others agree/disagree [refs]". In this specific case, such details would be better presented in a separate paragraph.

 * As I mentioned in an edit summary, you can present the sources and propose the wording here, at this talk page, and we will all see if the paragraph is sound & merits inclusion. - Best, Ev (talk) 20:20, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * again I have to explain the most obvious argument: 1. The article states what I wrote. And since I made it Italic (could use double quote instead) to mean that "it tends...". 2. You and the previous editor do not stick to the sources you are quoting: the question of identification of Avesta geography is not at all clear. (removing fictional stories, they are clear. But fictional books are produced in mass.) Stick to it. Now this means there is no definitive (that is yes or no) answer to the question of identification of Arang/Arvand?" You are pushing for your POV, My POV is different. 3. I do not see any problem with that quote. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xashaiar (talk • contribs) 20:42, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

 * Moving on ...
 * The pre-"later Pahlavi period" applications of the name 'Arvand' -- i.e. the real or putative references to the Tigris -- belong in the article on the Tigris. A statement that could belong here might read ...
 * "In Iran, the Shatt al-Arab came to be known as the 'Arvand' during the later Pahlavi period. Prior to that time, the Shatt al-Arab was known as the ________, and the name 'Arvand' typically referred to the Tigris. Although the Tigris now flows into the Shatt al-Arab, it seems to have previously flowed into the Shatt al-Hayy."
 * Or something to that effect. Whatcha think? -- Fullstop (talk) 23:57, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No way. I would recommend something similar to what I said (maybe rewording [up to Shahnameh as it is] but follows) something that refers to Arang but mentions "tend" (or "corruption" as said in pp. 159-161). That is Arang is really what existed in "Old Iran" (Ok, we don't know for sure what Arang is called now and not vise versa.)--Xashaiar (talk) 00:08, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

 * That would be the most sensible approach, Fullstop. After the paragraph we can add a simple "(see also Tigris#Etymology)", for clarity & to keep everybody happy. :-) I will see what I can find about what name Iranians used for this waterway before the arrival of Arvandism. - Best, Ev (talk) 16:25, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Avestan geography
Fullstop: "Avesta knows nothing about places in Western Iran (leave alone places in Mesopotamia/Babylonia)" , on which basis are you saying this? --Wayiran (talk) 17:09, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Wayiran that thing is the best example of selective quote to push certain WP:POV. 1. Using the quote from EIr to claim that "Arang is not Arvand" is OR and does not belong to wikipedia. 2. Let us look at evidence for the claim (Avesta knows nothing...) which is promoted by some scholars: At the moment there are some evidences that: the homeland of Avestan language is western Iran. (here in encoclopaedia 1 which happens to be from the same source as that claim). So why not using this? I think definitive answer to the question of geographical identification of places mentioned in Avesta (whether Western Iranian or Eastern Iranian) does not exist. What is not understood by people who revert more than they click is: The word arvand is the Middle Persian rendering of "Arang". I do not understand why this can not be mentioned in article.--Xashaiar (talk) 18:13, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * So Wayiran I support you change though a banknote is missing to satisfy those whose only sources are banknotes.--Xashaiar (talk) 18:26, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Xashaiar, Iranica's article on Avestan geography mentions that, with the exception of an important study from 1921, there's a general agreement among Iranian scholars that the events of the Avesta should be located in eastern Iran. – But you choose to ignore the existence of any scholarly consensus, and emphasize instead the exception that suits your personal world view. Nice. - Ev (talk) 18:36, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Read my comment once more. Look at the underlined and bold words. After understanding, then we discuss more.--Xashaiar (talk) 18:41, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Yes, the same source (Iranica's article on Avestan geography) mentions a scholarly consensus and an exception from 1921. You like the exception. The word arvand is the Middle Persian rendering of "Arang" ? According to whom ? And why would that matter to the article on the Shatt al-Arab ? - Ev (talk) 18:51, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Wayiran, just for starters, and as already commented above, Iranica's article on Avestan geography mentions that "[g]eographical references in the Avesta are limited to the regions on the eastern Iranian plateau and on the Indo-Iranian border." Are Western Iran or Mesopotamia located on the eastern Iranian plateau or on the Indo-Iranian border ? - Best, Ev (talk) 17:27, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Starter!? I guess Iranica has generalized it by saying so. But the eastern Iran is only one of the candidates for Geographical position of ancient Iranian people and Avestan geographical locations and as it is unrelated to this article I won't go into details, but I suggest you to consider Chichast lake which is in Northwest of Iran and is well mentioned in Avesta and then consider the "hara bazaiti" which is the Avestan render of "Alborz" mountain in north of Tehran, and in addition to this, you can read this article. BTW eight Kassite kings of Babylon had the title of Zoroaster and other things which brings the idea of considering the Babylon equivalent to some Avestan geographical places. --Wayiran (talk) 18:08, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

And just because a certain word appears in the Avsta does not mean that that word is also a proper name. For example, the Avestan word for "swift" is aruuand, which is just an ordinary adjective. Not a name! So, some "holy names" got "transported". Not only to Western Iran, but all the way to the Mediterranean, and all the way to India. In fact, even real places got "transported". For example (IIRC), sughd (Sogdiana) was identified with Syria.
 * What follows are the basics. Some crucial points first:
 * # A1 The Avesta does not mention places in Western Iran. Forget anything to the contrary. Its false.
 * # A2 The Avesta is a collection of religious compositions, not a treatise on geography.
 * # A3. The Avestan compositions are younger than the concepts expressed within them.
 * # B1 The Pahlavi books were written in Western Iran. They are accordingly from the Western Iranian perspective.
 * # B2 Lots and people, from all over Iran, identified "holy names" with places in their vicinity.
 * The Avesta's texts contain memories of very ancient times, stories told for hundreds of years before someone decided to compose a song (or whatever), which then eventually became an Avestan hymn (or whatever). All those "names" from ancient times do not necessarily correspond to any real places. Some of those names do correspond to real places, and those are all in Eastern Iran. Like sughd for Sogdiana.
 * When the Pahlavi books (which means 9th-12th century Zoroastrian texts) were being written, the authors applied it to their idea of the "world". Which is not the same as the "world" of the Avesta, and is not the same as the "world" of 2,000 BC.
 * The Pahlavi books were written by educated people (priests)! So, just imagine what the normal people did. Well, there is not only one Alborz, or one "Chichast lake". There are multiple Alborzes, and multiple "Chichast lake". For example, the Shahnameh puts "Alborz" waaaaaaay east. Yet other people identified "Alborz" with Mount Ararat. And the "Chichast lake" in Sistan -- although in the East -- does not necessarily correspond to any Avestan name either.
 * Hopefully, you now understand that lots and lots of people identified lots of "holy names" with lots and lots of different places. But only very few Avestan place names actually correspond to real places. And even when "holy names" do correspond to real places, those names were also given to other places.
 * Hopefully, you now understand that "[g]eographical references in the Avesta are limited to the regions on the eastern Iranian plateau and on the Indo-Iranian border" is perfectly correct, and perfectly precise. It is not a "generalization".
 * In any case, the Tigris is not the Shatt al Arab. If you want to write about the MP identification of "Arvand" with the Tigris (or the Nile), then go to those articles. -- Fullstop (talk) 19:28, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

No, I don't agree with you. I don't have time to discuss, and this discussion page is not the place to discuss whether Avestan geography refers to eastern Iran or western Iran. The fact is that it covers both. You should read the famous book of Dr. Jahanshah Derakhshani regarding this issue, and I can't type all of it over here. It has been well discussed there. Besides that, traditional history due to it's myths is not necessarily considered as a mythological issue, but the history can be taken out from it. Today characters like Solomon are considered as historical characters, whereas he has only been mentioned in Bible, and not in any other historical source. Hopefuuuuuuuuuuly you accepted some of my points. --Wayiran (talk) 05:58, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Wayiran, I hope you understand that your disagreement and statements do not change what our sources tell us; namely, the existence of a general academic consensus on the issue. - Regards, Ev (talk) 16:53, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

BTW, where has Ferdowsi said about Alborz in east??

These are all the beyts in which Ferdowsi has used "Alborz":

برم خوب رخ را به البرز کوه  	 	  شوم ناپديد از ميان گروه

ز البرز کوه اندر آمد به دشت 		چو بگذشت ازان بر فريدون دو هشت

برانگيخت ما را ز البرز کوه 		که يزدان پاک از ميان گروه

که بودش بدانجا کنام و گروه 		ببردش دمان تا به البرز کوه

به البرز کوه اندر آن زشت جاي 		برفتم به فرمان گيهان خداي

چو باز آوريدم ز البرز کوه 		به پيمان چنين رفت پيش گروه

بران کوه البرز بردن گروه 		وزان جا کشيدن سوي زاوه کوه

گزين کن يکي لشکر همگروه 		برو تازيان تا به البرز کوه

يکي جايگه ديد برنا شکوه 		يکي ميل ره تا به البرز کوه

به کاري که بسيار دارد شکوه 		مرا رفت بايد به البرز کوه

قباد دلاور ببين با گروه 		مرا گفت رو تا به البرز کوه

کنون آمدم شادمان با گروه 		چنانم که گويي ز البرز کوه

که ديو اندران رنج‌ها شد ستوه 		يکي خانه کرد اندر البرز کوه

وگر کوه البرز در جوشن‌ست 		تو گفتي جهان سر به سر آهن‌ست

که از کوه البرز تا برگ ني 		به رستم چنين گفت کاووس کي

وگر کوه البرز در جوشنست 		تو گفتي يکي باره‌ي آهنست

تلي گشته چون کوه البرز جاي 		همي‌برد هر کس بر سوفزاي

به مردي جهاندار شد با گروه 		قباد آنک آمد ز البرز کوه

Even if he has mentioned that it shows that the Iranians were in west of Alborz mountain, so you have agreed that Avestan geography covers western Iran, upto Egypt too. --Wayiran (talk) 06:45, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Iranica's article on the Alborz (in the first paragraph of "i. The Name Alborz") mentions that "Ferdowsi in the Shahnameh refers to the Alborz mountains as though they lay in India." - Best, Ev (talk) 16:57, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Fullstop didn't answer. "Hara brazaiti" (which is the Avestan form of Alborz) has a common part with Semic languages and that is "Hara" which in both means "mountain". This similarity shows that they have not been too far. Fereydun had 3 sons, Salm, Iraj, Tur, Salm had the control of WEstern Iran, probably the geographical area of Roman empire, Iraj had Iran in center, and Tur had east, upto China. Best. --Wayiran (talk) 14:40, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

For that Hara, you can see Armageddon, which is "Har-Majdo" which means "mountain of Majdo" and is supposed to be the place where last war of Truth and Devil takes place. --Wayiran (talk) 14:43, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Misrepresentation of sources
The following comments were copied here from Wayiran's talk page. - Ev (talk) 18:47, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Why does the text "misrepresent the sources" in your view? --Wayiran (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

 * The issue is explained at Talk:Shatt al-Arab (permanent link). - Best, Ev (talk) 16:48, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

 * I've already read that, can you please specify exactly what is your problem with the source? The source supports it very well in my view. Are you saying "Arang" was the name of another river and it is unrelated to this Shattalarab, so it should not be covered in this article? --Wayiran (talk) 17:00, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

 * No, Iranica does not support that wording. Only snippets of its articles, read in isolation from the rest of the text, can be misinterpreted to say what you propose to add to our article.

 * In that talk page, Fullstop and I are saying two things:
 * We don't really know if the primarily mythical Arang mentioned in the Avesta was any actual river at all. If it was a real river, it was one located in eastern Iran, the geographical area in which the events of the Avesta are located. So, if it was a real river, it was not the Tigris, and much less so the Shatt al-Arab.
 * It appears that, in the Middle Ages, Persian writers identified (either by error or deliberatedly) the primarily mythical Arang mentioned in the Avesta with real rivers: sometimes with the Tigris, in other ocasions with the Nile, or with the Orontes. That fact is interesting, and can be included in Wikipedia. But it is related to the Tigris (and the Nile, and the Orontes), not to the Shatt al-Arab; thus, it belongs in the article on the Tigris (and the other rivers).
 * Best, Ev (talk) 17:23, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

 * The preceeding comments were copied here from Wayiran's talk page. - Ev (talk) 18:47, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, I agree that before any well academic research on the issue we can't consider "Arang" as an absolute actual river. Again I agree that before any academic research on it, we can't say that absolutely it was Tigris, as it had other interpretations like Nile and etc too, and again Tigris itself is an Iranian/Aryan word:

در متون سومري به دجله، «ديگنه» گفته مي‌شد كه همان «دجله» عربي يا «تيگره» فارسي باستان است كه در زبان هخامنشي ثبت شده و ريشه آن «تيگر» به معني تند است كه در زبان يوناني هم «تيگريس» همان دجله است. زبانشناسان واژه «ديگنه» را به هيچ‌وجه سومري نمي‌دانند، پس در نظر سومرشناسان اين رود تاكنون بدون ريشه مشخص بوده است اما در زبان آريايي معني دارد. «تيگره» در زبان آريايي به معني تند است. واژه‌هاي تيغ و تيز هم از همين ريشه‌اند. در زبان انگليسي هم «TIGER» به معني حيوان تندپا يا ببر از همين ريشه است.

Rough Translation: In Sumerian texts, Tigris was called as "Digne" that is same as Arabic "Dejle" or "Tigre" of Old-Persian. Phonologists don't consider "Digne" as a Sumerian word at all, So in the view of Sumerologists this river has remained without any specific root up to now, but it has a meaning in Aryan language. "Tigre" in Aryan language [or language of Aryans] means "swift". [Persian] words "Tigh" and "Tiz" are also from the same root. Also in English language, "Tiger" with the meaning of a fast animal or tiger is from the same root.

Source: here, Also you can read other books of Jahanshah Derakhshani, whcih are having vast amount of material regarding the roots of Aryan civilization in Middle east and West Asia.

But the important thing is that the sentence in article says "WHICH TENDS TO BE IDENTIFIED WITH ARVAND", It is clear that it is not saying absolutely Avestan Arang, refers to Tigris, but it says it tends to be identified with. --Wayiran (talk) 15:48, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Yes, Wayiran, that is the sentence we all read in Iranica's article on the Arang. It says that in the works of Persian writers from the Middle Ages the primarily mythical Arang mentioned in the Avesta tends to be identified with the Tigris, as is the case in the Zatspram (3.22), the Dadistan-i Denig (92.2) or the Pahlavi Vendidad (1.19). In other ocasions, it is identified with the Nile, as in the Bundahishn (XI A).

 * As I already told you (in the comment copied above), these facts are interesting, and can be included in Wikipedia. But they relate to the Tigris and the Nile, not to the Shatt al-Arab. They do not belong in this article. - Best, Ev (talk) 16:36, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

 * So I will add a new section as Etymology in next few days. --Wayiran (talk) 14:37, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

presitful
I just did a web search for "presitful". Every hit seems to be copied from this article, except a reference to "vice presitful". Clearly some word was mangled, but I find nothing like it in the referenced article (Danube River). Can someone guess what word(s) were meant?  Randall Bart    Talk   20:33, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the term meant is thalweg or deep river line. It does appear that somebody has mangled the phrase. --A.S. Brown (talk) 03:02, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I changed this from presitful principle to thalweg principle. While I don't know what the misspelled "presitful" was meant to be, the description in the rest of the original sentence match that of the thalweg principle. I also removed the reference to the Danube river, since that article did not mention this principle or anything related to borderlines in rivers. Conscientiouspirate (talk) 05:41, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

greater Iran
arvand rud is the real name of this river.this is an old name. shat al-arab is a false name and all know this. please change the subject of this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.132.209.113 (talk) 16:12, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Jokes aren't acceptable
Shat all Arabs — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:410A:D400:F1C7:FBA2:7C6F:1F05 (talk) 19:46, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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Formation?
When and how did this form? Sarsath3 (talk) 00:27, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Shatt al-Arab


text: File:Telecom Éireann.png

title: File:Telecom Éireann.png