text:
User talk:AxSkov/Archive1

Welcome!
Hello Axel, welcome to Wikipedia. You might like to start by reading the tutorial and introducing yourself at the new users page. You can sign your name using four tildes ( ~ ) and you can preview your changes before you save using the show preview button. You can regularly find new tips on the Community Portal. If you have any questions, you can ask at the help desk or on my talk page. I look forward to reading your great articles and I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian. :) Angela. 07:44, Aug 4, 2004 (UTC)

Spelling
We don't make a preference of one spelling system over another. Please don't Move articles, especially, just because you think the spelling should be different. I will be reverting List of Defence Ministers of France. RickK 06:48, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

Do not edit a page simply to "correct" the spelling in either direction.. If you do, I will revert it again. DO NOT DO ANY major changes like this without dsicussing them first. RickK 07:00, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

I apologise for RickK's rudeness. He lacks tact. Basically on Wikipedia, to avoid reactions like this, we leave spellings the way the original author wrote them. Only in country (or culture) specific articles do we favour one spelling over another. So we use Australian English on Australia, but US English on New York, for example. By the way, welcome (belatedly) to Wikipedia, from a fellow Aussie :) - Mark 07:06, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * It's not really technically 'wrong' as such. Some Americans just get irritated when they have to face the harsh reality that their cultural influence does not affect every aspect of life around the entire world. - Mark 07:42, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * If I were you I would just leave the spelling. It's an ambiguous case. But no, RickK does not have the authority to just ban you based upon a spelling dispute. There are other mechanisms in place to help resolve such disputes. - Mark 04:20, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * The "reverted edits by..." edit summary is automatically inserted when a sysop/administrator uses the rollback feature, which rolls back to the old version of the page, which is most useful in cases of vandalism (it's a lot quicker than reverting manually). Regular users can't do this, they must apply for adminship on RfA, which is now usually only granted after more than 5 months of editing and over 1500 or 2000 edits. - Mark 01:06, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Ignore RickK and be bold! Nelson Ricardo 00:27, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)

Review request
Hi :) If you have a few minutes it be great if you could have a look at West Papua and the re-name proposal at the bottom of its discussion page. Any input, edits, or opinions be great. I've always tried to ensure there was an abundance of supporting evidence before adding content, and avoid emotive wording; I welcome different opinions, just wish they would explain what it is they disagree with. All Best :)Daeron 06:02, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Palatal nasal
I am reorganizing the sections on language examples in each of the consonant articles (trying to make them all fit the same format), and I noticed the English language example, canyon, you added on palatal nasal. Is that an Australian pronunciation? I'm not sure I've ever heard it pronounced that way (by the way, I'm from the US). I just wanted to make sure before I move things around. Thanks. CyborgTosser (Only half the battle) 10:18, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * That surprises me, because I watch American programs on TV (there are alot on our TV channels) and to me that's how Americans pronounce canyon, just as we do here in Australia. This is definitely a correct pronunciation (if not for North Americans) from both Australian & British dictionaries that I have. If your confused about the two different pronunciations, one is the broad transcription (between the slashes) and the other is the narrow transcription (between the square brackets). Could you give me an example of how Americans pronounce canyon from a dictionary using IPA? -- Kind regards, AxSkov 14:29, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm used to hearing either [kænjən] or [kænjn̩]. My dictionary gives kan'yən, which could be either of the those (American dictionaries are weird about ə, they think everything is a ə).  I don't think Americans generally pronounce Spanish ñ correctly, even when speaking Spanish, much less for loanwords.  Even in Spanish class in high school, I was taught to pronounce Spanish ñ as [nj], not [ɲ]. CyborgTosser (Only half the battle) 19:51, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm having a hard time finding an American dictionary that uses IPA. Neither Websters New World or American Heritage use IPA.  Both, by the way, give only one pronunciation, but I guess that doesn't really mean anything, considering it's a wide transcription.  Since I have to rely on my own observations, I decided to write the word down and ask several of my friends to speak it.  I got a sampling of dialects from the midwest (myself), the southwest, the northwest, Hawaii, and a non-native speaker (Vietnamese).  Everyone said [nj], except the guy from the southwest, who occasionally said something closer to [ɲ].  So I can say now that I've heard it pronounced as you indicated, although it would appear that at least among American dialects, that is a fairly rare pronunciation.  I'm going to go ahead and reformat that article leaving your example, but adding a note that it varies between dialects, and if you can think of anything to add beyond that, it would be appreciated.  Thanks. CyborgTosser (Only half the battle) 23:26, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Maybe then something like your dictionary's full explanation would be good. One of the points of the language examples is, besides giving a survey of usage, helping readers who are not familiar with the phonetic terms recognize what it is they are reading about.  Perhaps even something at the top, right after the IPA and XSAMPA symbols, explaining to English speakers that if they speak the word canyon with the emphasis on...they will likely be pronouncing this consonant or a good approximation.  And with this kind of expansion, I don't see any problems with the change you suggested.  Good luck. CyborgTosser (Only half the battle) 06:15, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

IPA transcriptions, rhoticity, and /r/
Just a note to say, first, that I appreciate your taking the time to convert some of the many SAMPA phonetic transcriptions to IPA.

I would ask, however, that you avoid non-rhotic transcriptions. Non-rhotic dialects are phonologically innovative, and more complex, than rhotic English. Learners of English as a foreign language, the chief audience for phonetic transcriptions, should not be taught to imitate them. More importantly, they are rule-bound, and the non-rhotic pronunciation can be derived simply from a rhotic transcription by the application of simple derivational rules; so those whose speech is non-rhotic can figure out their local pronunciation from a full transcription. Thanks. -- Smerdis of Tlön 14:57, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Oh for heaven's sake. Just as both British and American spellings are acceptable, so are both rhotic and nonrhotic pronunciations. I'd suggest only using RP for nonrhotic transcriptions, though, not other nonrhotic accents like Australian. I'd also suggest following the same guidelines for pronunciation as for spelling: rhotic pronunciations on American topics, nonrhotic pronunciations on British/European/Commonwealth topics, and both for region-neutral topics. --Angr 12:37, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * I'll just add that I disagree with Smerdis of Tlön. Are ESL students really the cheif audience for phonetic/phonemic transcriptions?  I doubt it but even if they are, they're not the only audience.  Should they not be taught non-rhotic English?  Why not?  On the contrary, a non-rhotic ESL teacher should be teaching non-rhotic English (& a rhotic one, rhotic English).  Neither one is better than the other.  Jimp 19Jun05

Swedes steaming up
At RfC I listed: I guess this is a field where you can weight in as a moderating force.
 * Talk:Rikssvenska, Talk:Swedish language, Talk:Swedish phonology, Talk:Voiceless dorso-palatal velar fricative, and most probably soon in more related articles, souring relations between contributors with conflicting attitudes and personalities (likely related, among other things, to the status of Finland-Swedish and the Mandatory Swedish education in Finland)

Regards! --Johan Magnus 09:59, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Australia-gov-stub
Hi - just noticed your creation of Australia-gov-stub. Looks like this will be a useful one, but in future please propose new stub categories on WikiProject Stub sorting/Criteria, so that they can be debated before creation! Grutness|hello? 09:46, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC) PS - there seems to be something up with the edit function on your talk page... The wrong section opens up when you go to edit a section...
 * No problems as far as the stub is concerned - it's largely a courtesy to discuss things first, since it's the stub sorters who use the templates more than anyone else. This one will be useful - it's mainly when people start creating stub categories which will only ever have four or five articles in them, or ones which don't fit in with existing categories (by design or chance yours fits in well with things like canada-gov-stub). A to the edit problem, I'm not sure what's causing it - I just know that clicking on a section edit brings up the previous section. Try ashing at Village pump (technical) - someone there is bound to know what' going on. Grutness|hello? [[Image:Grutness.jpg|25px|]] 01:55, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yog(h)urt
Sorry for the delay in responding. But there's a bit more in my latest edit to Talk: Yoghurt. rossb 21:07, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Edit count
Even more apologies for a delay in responding, but I've been away dealing with a family crisis. I use Kate's tool for monitoring my edit count when I am getting near to a landmark. You can work it out for past milestones by going through your 'My contributions' link; setting the number of articles to 500; and then repeatedly hitting the 'next 500' link. When you get to the end, then you keep reducing the number of articles displayed and paging through until you're showing the last 20. Setting the article count back to 500 will show the last 500 articles, and so the first article displayed is your 500th edit. You can then select 'previous 500' to find the later milestones. Apparently this puts a heavy load on the servers, so it's not really something to be recommended. Hope that helps. Noisy | Talk 13:46, May 24, 2005 (UTC)

Pronouncing your name
On my talk page, you've asked how Danes would pronounce your name. I'm a Dane, but I'm not good at phonetics. Anyway, here's a suggestion:

"Axel" or "Aksel" is old norse, probably meaning "gods helmet". It is pronounced much as in English. The A is perhaps more open like in British "bath", and the E is almost silent ("ahksl").

"Skovdam" means "forest ´pond", I guess. "Sko" is pronounced as in the word "Scotch"; "ov" is like a diphtong "ou" (and also like the Danish word "og", meaning "and"). In "dam", the A is like that in "Axel", but shorter and with auxilliary stress only. So it is quite short and open compared to the A in English "dam" or "damn".

Hope this helps.--Niels Ø 17:39, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

Riḍván
Regarding your recent edits at Riḍván, I don't think you realize the problem. You got rid of the "d with a dot below it" in the "the correct title is..." message and replaced it with (what I assume is) the same character the message warns users about. I can't even confirm this as my perspective looks like the following: (deleted) lol the colors got a little messed up in the gif conversion.

(however, using ḍ (ḍ) renders properly in the article but not as a title.)

 * —  F REAK OF N URxTURE  ( TALK )  09:02, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

More on Riḍván and Firefox
Ok well it still does not look much different, (I still have empty squares in place of the ḍ's) so I will have to take your word for it as I'm not really at liberty to download Firefox on the computer I'm using at the moment. (I do most of my wikipedia use/contribution at work—night shift at a hotel gets boring.) I have heard positive comments about Firefox and do plan to get it on my home computer soon. I don't, however, think my bosses (less computer-literate than me, even) would even notice if I added extra font sets/unicode (or whatever) to the hotel computer. And then perhaps I would be able to view it properly in MSIE. Can you give me at a URL from which I can download the stuff I'd need to view it in IE? Also, I'm sure I'm not the only one having this problem, so is there an existing template message that says something to the effect of "If your system does not properly display some of the characters on this page, you might consider installing extra font-sets from _____."? I think that would be helpful to a large portion of wikipedia users. Lastly, regarding firefox, I did have one person tell me it's kinda futile to install a 2nd web browser on a windows system because internet explorer is built into the system (I know explorer is used for displaying contents of local folders, etc.) Is firefox capable of completely replacing explorer for all tasks? I realize this last question has little to do with wikipedia but I've been wondering this for a while, whether IE can be completely gotten rid of at that point or whether it will maintain a permanant and largely redundant (hard drive- and RAM-consuming) presence even after firefox is installed. A lot of questions, I know. Thanks in advance for advice on this.
 * —  F REAK OF N URxTURE  ( TALK )  09:57, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

A slight change
The squares representing the "unknown" character are now much narrower. I figured I would have to download something on my end for it to work. —  F REAK OF N URxTURE  ( TALK )  10:53, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

North (Germanic)
Would you please stop doing these pointless reverts? We are here to state the obvious and this idea about shortening phylums to just a point on the compass that are somewhat oblique unless you're very familiar with the whole classification thing.

Peter Isotalo 03:52, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

User categorization
Hello there, saw your edit to the Category:Australian Wikipedians cat, with reference to the page that it is supposed to be replacing. It would be much more helpful to start making the subcategories for the Australian Wikipedians category (such as Australian Administrators, Wikipedians in Australia Capital Territory, etc.) and help make the transition rather than provide a link back to the system that is being overwritten. The English Wikipedia is one of the only ones sill using large lists to categorize users instead of categories, which have shown to work a lot better despite lack of annotation (which should be reserved for the respective users' page anyhow). Thoughts on this? If you want to help, please do! The project goal is to replace the subpage lists of the Wikipedians article with categories: Category:Wikipedians, Category:Wikipedians by location. I haven't gotten to Australia yet but if you fall into the category it would be more prudent for you to make these changes anyway. --thereverendeg 17:42, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot for your numerous contributions to the user categorisation project! I have created a preliminary project page here: User categorisation please make any changes you see neccessary. Thanks again! --thereverendeg 00:43, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

User categorizing (one more)
Hey. When adding categories to users' pages, it would be helpful if the edit summary included a link back to the project page, so that the user would both see what's going on and possibly even help. The one suggested by the project page (which I admit I wrote there) is User categorisation. Other projects tend to do this a lot to gain attention. If it's annoying to copy between two things (both the category tag and the edit summary), then autocomplete in the edit summary textbox can be helpful (though personally I just copy between two Firefox tabs). PeepP 19:48, July 31, 2005 (UTC)

|family=Indo-European &nbsp;Balto-Slavic

is, for some reason, rendered with  between Indo-European and Balto-Slavic. This results in uneven line spacing in the resulting table. That's why I prefer to use

|family=Indo-European &nbsp;Balto-Slavic

Naive cynic 00:51, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Belated Reply: Yeah OK I agree, that spacing is quite ugly. – AxSkov ( ☏ ) 06:37, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Australian English SAMPA
Hi Axel. I was looking at the SAMPA chart for English and found myself disagreeing with many of the Australian English sounds you added on May 2, 2005. The suggestions that we use a schwa in the first syllable of words such as father and arm are particularly hard to understand. Would you care to clarify what regional pronunciation you used as your reference and how you made these decisions?

Thanks

Mbwardle 23:47, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Replied to this question on SAMPA chart for English talk page. – AxSkov ( ☏ ) 07:35, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Location
Hi Axel,

Just thought I'd say hi since you live in the Macedon Ranges, and so do I (Gisborne). Drop me a line sometime!

Neolux 06:15, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Category sorting
Thanks for sorting the categories on my user page, It is much appreciated. — Wackymacs 20:24, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Same thanks here! N (t/c) 12:39, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

User name
I did think of this when I added the categores, but my user name isn't real (it's not a given name and a family name), and I think of it as beginning with "M". --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 08:00, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Ah, sorry to be so slow; I'll do it now. --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 08:25, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Removal of post
In a few posts, I left this message about edits from an anon IP-user that matched your editing habits very closely and was making some fairly sneaky and unmotivated edits. You removed this post without a comment. Hardly a constructive response to a polite inquiry. Would you care to explain why?

You are also still rather forcefully and unilaterally trying to decide the appearance of the language infoboxes. Your motivation so far (SIL likes that layout format) isn't really a very convincing argument and I would wish you would have a more compromising approach to this. Editors at Norwegian language don't seem to be agreeing with you here either. Otherwise you seem to be doing a good job. Keep it up.

Peter Isotalo 14:41, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

 * This is, what, the fifth time now? If you don't show any sign of cooperation, I'm going to open an RfC on you.
 * Peter Isotalo 03:11, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
 * This conversation has been continued at Peter's talk page. – AxSkov ( ☏ ) 04:25, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Australia
Just a minor point - you removed the spacing on the IPA transcriptions. Isn't spacing a customary device to indicate syllabification? They are harder to read otherwise. What are your views? Slac speak up!

 * Actually, a dot is the standard device for separating syllables. If you like, I can insert dots to separate the syllables. – AxSkov ( ☏ ) 03:11, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Duff Cooper
Hello there. I noticed your vote on Talk:Duff Cooper, 1st Viscount Norwich, and I was hoping you could further explain it. The policy on naming conventions specifically allows for the exception I and others are proposing: "EXCEPTIONS: When individuals received hereditary peerages after retiring from the post of Prime Minister (unless they are better known for their later career under an additional/alternative title), or for any other reason are known exclusively by their personal names, do not include the peerage dignity. Examples: Anthony Eden (not 'Anthony Eden, 1st Earl of Avon'), Bertrand Russell (not 'Bertrand Russell, 3rd Earl Russell') (but Henry Addington, 1st Viscount Sidmouth not 'Henry Addington')." Given that Duff Cooper is exclusively referred to without his peerage, it seems to me and others that this exception applies. Best, Mackensen (talk) 20:42, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Cut it out
You're making edits that are neither helpful nor enlighetening. You're focusing more on getting your personal whims reflected than caring about article quality. It's very, very frustrating and I would appreciate if you just stopped it altogether. These errors are obvious enough that you should understand, so I'm not eager to have another long, pointless discussion with you about it.

Peter Isotalo 07:35, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

 * I feel the contributions I have made actually do add to article quality, it seems to me that you don't give a s*** about article quality. Some of the contributions you have made are atrocious, and regarding my personal whims what about yours! Bloody hypocrite. – AxSkov ( ☏ )

My Name
I don't know why you would consider my edit "vandalism", since I was trying to clarify. If you want people who don't know phonology to get the pronunciation right, you should consider at least using phonetic transcription. Most people are just going to be confused by those /g/s. Peter Isotalo 13:01, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm an English speaker and I don't get confused with the g's. I called it "vandalism" because I did not agree with the changes you made to my user page, which you should have brought up on my talk page first! Using the g's is Danish phonetic phonemic transcription, which is what I want. (This information coming from Danish-English dictionaries and How to learn Danish books.)
 * You seem to take everything personal here, don't it's not worth it so lighten up. Life's too short to worry about such trivial things. That's one reason why I stopped long ago arguing with you, regarding various articles from Norwegian to Harpsichord, even though I felt the changes I made were better. No matter what I say you would disagree and revert my changes. I also don't like you linking me with various Anon individuals who insist on editing article content that's different from your own opinion. Please grow up. – AxSkov ( ☏ ) 07:19, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

 * You're an English speaker who happens to have read up on phonetics, but that's not particularly common among English speakers. The transcription, however, is not phonetic, it's phonemic and /g/ represents a devoiced [g] and sounds more or less identical to the unaspirated [k] in English. I don't know why you'd want people to pronounce your name in Danish, though, since you're an English speaker living in an English-speaking country and by deductive logic, you obviously don't pronounce it that way yourself. However, if you want to do it properly, you should first of all put it in brackets and make it narrow. The transcription might then be something like this: . I think you should use the transcription of how you pronounce it, though.
 * Peter Isotalo 09:12, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

 * And that is what I've done! The  sounds very much like a voiceless /g/ rather than a /k/. I've used the transcription of how I want my name pronounced, OK.  That's what I meant, "phonemic", thanks for the correction. – AxSkov ( ☏ ) 06:20, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

The Winter Queen
I guess you wish to influence how to apply naming conventions. Please take a look at Talk:Elisabeth of Bohemia. Arrigo 15:03, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Done. Voted on this one. – AxSkov ( ☏ )

and another: Kindly take a look at Talk:John, Duke of Burgundy, where a poll is ongoing. Arrigo 10:57, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Done. Voted on this one too. – AxSkov ( ☏ ) 06:35, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Merging
With regard to AfD/VfD, please read Wikipedia:Guide to Votes for deletion#Incompatible votes Guide to deletion.

To comply with the GFDL, we need to retain the edit history of edits we merge and redirect it to the article we merge it to. You cannot vote to delete the edit history while voting for merge of information. - Mgm|(talk) 11:16, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

 * OK, thankyou for the clarification. – AxSkov ( ☏ ) 08:35, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/JDizzle Comics
Hello, you voted on this VfD which I had accidentlally pasted Gillian Slovo instead of JDizzle Comics. I cleared all votes in order to remove any bias because of my stupidity so please vote again knowing that it is about JDizzle Comics. Sorry and thanks. gren グレン 21:31, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Done. Recast my vote. – AxSkov ( ☏ ) 08:16, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Customising keyboard (notification of reply)
(Copied from User_talk:Cassowary)

 * I use GNU/Linux, on which it works for every GUI app that supports Unicode (which is almost everything I use, and certainly everything I’d want to put IPA in). It’s also heavily geared towards Dvorak keyboard layout, so while it might be useful, it won’t have the same mnemonic power. If you’re looking to convert to a Free operating system, I could give you the files I use; otherwise, I probably can’t help you. —Felix the Cassowary (User talk:Cassowary) 13:46, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I use Windows XP so any information concerning Linux will not be helpful. Thanks for the reply though. – AxSkov ( ☏ ) 05:43, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

My RFA
Hi, thanks for voting for me in my RFA. I was really touched at how many people voted for me! --Angr/undefined 22:49, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
 * No problem, I'm sure you'll do a good job. – AxSkov ( ☏ ) 05:44, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Ordinals for East Francian Carolingians
Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles) 217.140.193.123 04:15, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Strauss reversion
Hi Axel. Please note that you just reverted an edit of mine that I tagged with the following comment
 * Debate is ongoing on several pages like WP:MOS and Wikipedia:Proper names, please contribute to those talk pages instead of editing.

I would have been happier if you heeded my invitation to discuss this (possibly contentious) issue instead of just reverting it. As I pointed out, I had a paragraph about exactly this issue (i.e., value of ß in disambiguating the Strauss page) on WP:MOS's talk page. Your opinions on this are appreciated. Arbor 07:47, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

 * I've been discussing this issue on Naming conventions (use English). From what I've read on Proper names my changes adhere to those rules mentioned in that article. I also made those changes due to the fact that many of the Strauss article names listed use 'ss' rather than 'ß' in their titles. (Note: I have also made some other minor changes to the Strauss article.) – AxSkov ( ☏ ) 08:12, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Australian highway edits
Axel, I notice you've worked through tidying up most of the Australian Highways today. Is there a reason you've tagged a lot of the short ones with road-stub instead of Australia-road-stub? Just wondering if you had a reason rather than me following up and retagging them all if you had a reason. Cheers. --Scott Davis Talk 07:43, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

 * I really didn't think the Australia-road-stub was that necessary, when a road-stub is sufficient enough for me. Although, if you feel it's really necessary to have a separate roads stub for roads in Australia, then I won't object to you retagging those articles with  . – AxSkov ( ☏ ) 04:09, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

I guess my view is that since there's a more specific stub category, I'd use it, the same as putting articles in the most specific available category. Maybe one day someone will make a point of working through all our roads and expanding them to full articles. I just wanted to make sure you weren't in the process of deliberately emptying the category or something. I might sort all Aus roads back into the Australian stub category, or even expand some, sometime this week then. Cheers. --Scott Davis Talk 04:24, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Coipel
In light of the total rewrite of Oliver Coipel, can I convince you to change your vote? DS 19:48, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Done. Recast my vote. – AxSkov ( ☏ ) 03:43, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Fir e Fo  x  RFA
 AxSkov

Thanks for your support on my request for adminship.

The final outcome was (96/2/0), so I am now an administrator. If you ever have any queries about my actions, please do not hesitate to contact me. Again, thanks! Fir e  Fo  x  18:21, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi! New Category
Hi! I'm trying to make a new category: Wikipedians from Garneau or from . I got run off today, but perhaps you can help out. --CyclePat 16:36, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Page move
Completely without announcement, an article was moved from its common English name Nidhogg to the old Norse version Níðhöggr, even though a proposal to move mythology articles to non-English spellings failed to gain consensus. You have expressed interest in simular page moves in the past. Please take a minute to look at this one. CDThieme 18:59, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Unicode font
It seems you are very knowledgeable regarding Unicode fonts; I'm looking for the most complete font available, as in the font that covers the largest part of the current Unicode standard characters. Thanks in advance! — Nightstallion (?) 14:13, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Football World Cup move
As a contributor to football articles you may wish to vote at talk:Football World Cup Jooler 13:43, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

2003 invasion of Iraq
Hi there, when trying to go over the discussion at 2003 invasion of Iraq I saw it has become a big mess. If I see it correctly there was a conflict between an anon and others and now the page has been blocked. I think the anon had a point that an encyclopedia article about any military conflict should not be written exclusively by three members of one the conflicting parties, in this case Pookster11, Swatjester, and Dawgknot who according to this comment all belong to the US military. I therefore suggest to get more people into the boat, that should take the wind out of the sails of bias allegations. As I saw you also edited on that page, would you be willing to help out? Get-back-world-respect 22:24, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

title: User talk:AxSkov/Archive1


text:
User:Brooke Vibber/Morp

Bug test: 2004-05-29

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User:Brooke Vibber/Morp


text:
Wikipedia:WikiProject C/C++

WikiProject C/C++ is a Wikipedian community that aims to improve and better organize information in articles related to C, C++, and their components. This page and its subpages contain their suggestions; it is hoped that this project will help to focus the efforts of other Wikipedians. If you would like to help, please inquire on the talk page and see the to-do list there.

{| style="width:250px;"

Alerts and statistics

 * }

Scope
WikiProject C/C++ is currently a child project of WikiProject Computing and WikiProject Computer science. Its scope is focused on C/C++ related topics including, but not limited to:
 * History
 * Official standards/specifications
 * Semantics
 * Operators
 * Data types
 * Libraries
 * Common practices
 * Software written in C/C++
 * Influential people

Goals

 * 1) Assess all unassesed articles.
 * 2) Identify all untagged C/C++ related articles and tag their talk pages with the WikiProject banner.
 * 3) Finish integrating material left from WikiProject C
 * 4) *Make sure all C/C++ related articles listed in /Organization are properly categorized.
 * 5) Bring all existing C and C++ related artcles up to at least B-CLASS.
 * 6) Provide a comprehensive coverage of C and C++ on Wikipedia.

Templates

 * Place this banner tag at or near the top of talk pages for articles related to C/C++. It is designed to help organize the articles and to direct people here. See the template's description for more detailed instructions on usage.

User WP C/C++
 * WikiProject members may place this Userbox on their user pages to advertise their participation.

 * Place this at the bottom of User talk pages invite possible participants.

Relevant categories
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title: Wikipedia:WikiProject C/C++


text:
Talk:Poincaré map

??
Don't we mean 'perihelion', not 'parhelion'? mat_x 07:47, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

changed "hyperplane" to "hypersurface" because it needn't be a plane, and very seldom is in practice. Added transversal, because this is normally assumed, if not, then in some parts the hypersurface is invariant under the flow and your poincare map is identity in these parts - very useful.

Definition seems wrong: "P(p)=p"?

"...semi-orbit of x..."? why not y

Poincare Space
I don't think that Poincare space should redirect to Poincare map. A Poincare space is any topological space that is subject to Poincare duality (eg, a compact manifold, a strong retract of a compact manifold, etc). A Poincare map seems to be in the realm of dynamical systems. 137.82.36.10 (talk) 02:27, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Question
Should it be specified where U is open? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.36.87.189 (talk) 20:56, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

first return map
Hi. I'm looking for definition of " first return map". Is it related with Poincare map ? --Adam majewski (talk) 18:38, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Ambiguity and rewording proposal
The current article text contains:

”the locus of the Moon when it passes through the plane perpendicular to the Earth's orbit and passing through the Sun and the Earth at perihelion is a Poincaré map.”

On first reading, I interpreted it as contending that the Moon passes through the Sun and the Moon, which seems impossible. Only on second reading, I presumed that “passing” may also grammatically refer to “the plane”.

If that is the intended meaning, I propose to remove ambiguity by rewording like this:

”the locus of the Moon when it passes through the plane that is perpendicular to the Earth's orbit and passes through the Sun and the Earth at perihelion is a Poincaré map.”

Any well-motivated objections?Redav (talk) 15:32, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Poincaré map


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Sha-Mail

Sha-Mail (写メール) was a 2G mailing and picture messaging service launched by J-Phone (now Softbank) in 2000 that allowed users to take a photo with their mobile phone and send it to another user on the service as an email attachment. A related service introduced in 2002, Video Sha-Mail, let users record and send videos as well. Sha-Mail was widely successful upon its launch, became a household name in Japan, and sparked a boom in camera phone services worldwide. The term derives from sha, the first part of the Japanese word 'picture' (写真), and mail (from email).

History
Sha-Mail development was led by Keiji Takao, who previously worked for Mazda. Takao came up with the idea on a sight-seeing trip to Hakone with his parents, where he saw a woman on a cable car using her mobile phone, apparently struggling to operate the device and unable to send a photo of the view. He recalled: "Here she was, a lady furiously typing into her handset and trying to relay her feelings and excitement to her children or husband. I said to myself, 'Gee, wouldn't it be easier if there was some sort of an image to send with?'" Takao also reportedly took inspiration from a survey he had read about adolescent girls keeping disposable cameras alongside their phones in their purse. J-Phone, meanwhile, was under pressure from competitors KDDI, which had a faster network, and NTT Docomo, which was preparing to move to 3G, and the company believed it could differentiate itself by focusing on email.

J-Phone launched the Sha-Mail service in November 2000 with the help of electronics company Sharp Corporation, who developed the J-SH04 phone with a built-in, back-facing CCD camera. The J-SH04 was among the first phones in the world with a fully-integrated camera, and at the time, Sha-Mail was Japan's only service of its kind.

The service was quite successful on the market, particularly with young people. J-Phone had sold around 3 million handsets with Sha-Mail enabled by January 2022. Almost three years later, 10 million users were on the service, with around 5 million users using Movie Sha-Mail. In 2002 Vodafone, which had by that point acquired J-Phone, launched Vodafone live! as a global service. By December 2002, the European launch of Vodafone live! brought in more than 380,000 users.

This rapid growth helped J-Phone move from #3 to #2 in total wireless data subscribers. J-Phone's competitors followed suit. Market leader NTT Docomo introduced a similar service with Sharp called i-shot and another named Foma, KDDI's au introduced "Photo Mail" and "Movie Mail" services, and KDDI subsidiary TU-KA introduced "Picture Mail." In the US, AT&T (a NTT Docomo affiliate) launched the mMode Pix feature on Sony Ericsson T68i devices. Sha-Mail's popularity also spawned tie-ins such as a magazine called "J-Phone Sha-mail Hearts" and the TV Aichi series Syamekke, which encouraged users to send in photos and text messages relating to weekly topics, later to be broadcast on the program.

In November 2002, Japan's fair trade commission raided Vodafone's headquarters upon an accusation that the company had prevented retailers from lowering the cost of Sha-Mail enabled handsets upon launch.

Though Vodafone planned to make Sha-Mail a centerpiece of its 3G service, the company lagged well behind its competitors in moving to 3G and capturing users; as of 2004 fewer than 20% of Vodafone subscribers were subscribed to 3G. Thus the now-obsolete Sha-Mail never upgraded to 3G, effectively ending Sha-Mail once support for 2G networks ceased.

The word Japanese word shamēru, often abbreviated to shame (写メ), now commonly refers to any text message with an image attached.

title: Sha-Mail


text:
Boris Pilnyak

Boris Andreyevich Pilnyak (né Vogau Бори́с Андре́евич Пильня́к; October 11 1894 – April 21, 1938) was a Russian and Soviet writer who was executed by the Soviet Union on false claims of plotting to kill Joseph Stalin and Nikolay Yezhov.

Biography
He was born Boris Andreyevich Vogau (Бори́с Андре́евич Вога́у) in Mozhaysk. His father was a doctor, descended from German farmers who settled on the banks of the Volga during the reign of Catherine the Great. His mother came from an old merchant family from Saratov. Boris first became interested in writing at the age of nine. Among his early influences were Andrei Bely, Aleksey Remizov, and Yevgeny Zamyatin.

Pilnyak achieved fame very quickly at the age of 25 through his novel The Naked Year (Голый год, 1922; translated into English 1928), one of the first fictional accounts of the Russian civil war. He was a major supporter of anti-urbanism and a critic of mechanized society, views which brought him into disfavor with Communist critics. The poet Demyan Bedny denounced him in Pravda on 16 October 1923 as a 'stinking' member of the 'horde of clueless fellow travellers'. The Old Bolshevik, Aleksandr Voronsky, founding editor of the journal Krasnaya nov (Red Virgin Soil), was offended by the remark, made by a character, that the Russian revolution "smells of sexual organs", but acknowledged Pilnyak's talent, and published his next work Materials for a Novel.

Pilnyak followed this with a strange short story The Tale of the Unextinguished Moon, published in the literary journal Novy Mir ('New World') in May 1926. In the story. a Red Army commander is ordered by 'the three who lead' to undergo a medical operation, which he does reluctantly. He dies on the operating table, the implication being that the 'three who lead' had wanted him dead. In October 1925, Mikhail Frunze, who had replaced Trotsky at the head of the Red Army, died after being advised by the Politburo, then dominated by the triumvirate of Joseph Stalin, Grigory Zinoviev and Lev Kamenev, to undergo an operation. There is no evidence that Stalin wanted Frunze dead, and Pilnyak tried to cover himself against the charge of slandering the leadership by adding a note at the end of his story, dated 28 January 1926, saying that he hardly knew Frunze and that the reader should not look for 'genuine facts and living persons' in the story. Nonetheless, the story created a scandal. Voronsky was shocked and embarrassed that the story was dedicated to him and declared that "I reject this dedication with disgust." The offending edition of Novy Mir was banned and the OGPU visited all known subscribers to confiscate their copies. They were later sent a substitute edition with a different story in place of Pilnyak's The magazine issued a public apology. He was in China, on a tour of the Far East when the storm broke, and could have defected, but instead hurried back to defend himself. Despite showing no enthusiasm for the Bolshevik revolution, he knew several high ranking communists, and turned for protection to the chief editor of Izvestya, Ivan Skvortsov-Stepanov who introduced him to the Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars (or prime minister) Alexei Rykov. At Rykov's urging, he wrote a letter expressing remorse, which was published in Novy Mir in January 1927. By now Pilnyak was second only to Maxim Gorky as the most read living Russian writer, in the Soviet Union and abroad. To protect his copyright had an arrangement under which all his works were published simultaneously in Moscow and Berlin. His best known novel, Mahogany (Кра́сное де́рево, 1927, translated 1965), was banned in Russia, but—like his other work—was published in Berlin. This gave Pilnyak's enemy, Leopold Averbakh, head of the Russian Association of Proletarian Writers the pretext to launch an attack that was carried through four successive weekly editions of the 'Literary Gazette', which Averbakh controlled, and which headlines such as 'A Hostile Network of Agents in the Ranks of Soviet Writers' and 'Boris Pilnyak, Special Correspondent for the White Guard'. The poet Vladimir Mayakovsky joined in, claiming that "at the present time of darkening storm clouds this is the same as treachery at the front" and Maxim Gorky wrote to one of the secretaries of the Communist Party, Andrey Andreyev complaining about how "Pilnyak has been forgiven for his story about the death of Comrade Frunze".

Unlike Yevgeny Zamyatin, who was subjected to a similar attack at the same time and refused to apologise or back down, Pilnyak capitulated and agreed to comply with the regime's requirements. He found a new protector in Nikolai Yezhov, the future murderous head of the NKVD, who acted as his personal censor during the composition of his next novel, The Volga Flows into the Caspian Sea (Волга впадает в Каспийское море, 1930; translated 1931), which described the forced industrialisation drive in glowing language. Victor Serge visited Pilnyak while this work was in progress. "Pilnyak would twist his great mouth. 'He has given me a list of 50 passages to change outright! Ah!' he would exclaim, 'if only I could write freely!' At other times I found him in the throes of depression. 'They'll end up by throwing me in jail, don't you think?' I gave him heart by explaining that his fame in Europe and America safeguarded him." In Artists in Uniform, published in 1934 Max Eastman wrote a chapter entitled "The Humiliation of Boris Pilnyak."

After he had debased himself, he was allowed to resume his place in the elite, and to travel to Paris, New York and Tokyo. Another of his well-known works is ''Okay! An American Novel'', (О’кей! Американский роман, 1931; translated 1932), an unflattering travelogue of his 1931 visit to the United States. He used the visit to Japan to write A story about how stories come to be written. He was also allocated a private dacha on an estate reserved for privileged writers, where his neighbour was Boris Pasternak, one of the few who had defended him in 1929. In 1936, they were visited by the French novelist André Gide, who was seeking an honest opinion about life in the Soviet Union. A police informer told the NKVD that Pilnyak and Pasternak had several secret meetings with André Gide, and supplied him with information about the situation in the USSR. There is no doubt that Gide used this information in this book attacking the USSR."

Despite his public debasement, Pilnyak acted courageously in secret. When he heard that Karl Radek, a prominent member of the left wing opposition, was living in hardship after being exiled to Tomsk, Pilnyak sent him money. He also corresponded with the Spanish communist, Andres Nin, who broke with Stalin in 1927 and founded the POUM (the party George Orwell supported during the Spanish civil war). When Victor Serge was arrested in Moscow, Pilnyak urged Nin to generate international pressure to secure his release. This correspondence was discovered when the NKVD kidnapped Nin in Barcelona. On 28 October 1937, Pasternak dropped by to congratulate Pilnyak and his Georgian wife, Kira Andronikashvili, on their son's third birthday. That evening, Pilnyak was arrested. He was accused of plotting to kill Stalin and Yezhov, and of being a Japanese spy. He was tried on 21 April 1938, pleaded guilty, and was shot the same day. A small yellow slip of paper attached to his file read: "Sentence carried out." He was executed with a bullet to the back of the head at the Kommunarka shooting ground.

Pilnyak began to be rehabilitated and appreciated again in the USSR in the late 1960s and 1970s.

Influence
Pilnyak is generally considered the greatest Russian novelist of 1920s and was the second most read writer of that time, only behind Maxim Gorky. His modernist style of writing influenced a whole generation, not only Russian but also many Yugoslav writers, the most famous of them being Danilo Kiš, Dubravka Ugrešić and Miodrag Bulatovic among others. Kiš often cited Pilnyak as one of his main influences and one of his favourite Russian authors along with Yury Olesha and Isaac Babel.

title: Boris Pilnyak


text:
Talk:Ford DEW platform

As I understand it DEWlite platform was scrapped because it would have been too expensive. The Mustang going into production next year shares almost nothing with the DEW cars, and is instead based largely on Mazda parts and processes. This new platform is known as DC2 (not to be confused with - but probably based largely on - the CD2 Mazda FWD/AWD midsize platform). -- stewacide

title: Talk:Ford DEW platform


text:
Talk:Traceroute

traceroute.org
traceroute.org isn't updated for a lot of years, half of links are dead and his maintainer takes care of it ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.163.173.59 (talk) 23:23, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The information on this page is a bit mixed up. It might take some work to sort out all the small discrepancies here. Kim Bruning 07:55, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * As to images,anyone up for an xtraceroute screenshot? For some reason my xtraceroute database sucks. I wonder if anyone has a nicer one to make a decent image with ;-) Kim Bruning 12:41, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Matt's Trace Route
There is an article on mtr, "Matt's Trace Route," which should be merged into the traceroute article as a new section unless there's some compelling reason to keep the information in two unsynchronized places. (Or unless, of course, "Matt's Trace Route" turns out to be unencyclopedic; but apparently a bunch of Linux sysadmins use it, so I reserve judgment on that point.) --Quuxplusone 05:10, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
 * --Dissagree-- No don't do that, tracrt and mtr are completly different tools (they share some similarities in functionality) just reference each of them on both pages
 * --Disagree-- I concur with the above editor.Shouta 09:54, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
 * --Disagree-- Functionality is different, btw as one of those Linux sysadmins I recomend this tool as a replacement to tregular traceroute. Htaccess 13:50, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
 * --Agree-- The functionality is the same, MTR just adds another element (ping) after the initial traceroute. Note MTR often results in poor data, since it probes based on data going "to" the router (slow path / control-plane data which is usually heavily rate limited and cpu processed), not data going "through" the router. Take any such data with a grain of salt, or be prepared to be confused. Humble226 08:18, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * --Disagree-- traceroute is a traditional Unix command, there are dozens of "improved" versions out there, let's not mention them all in the article. Jaho 04:43, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

correct title
Why should the first letter not be capitalized if the name of the program is not traceroute? Mace 11:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Because Unix-like operating systems distinguish between upper and lower case in filenames. Typing "Traceroute" in stead of "traceroute" results in a "command not found" error. Jaho 04:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Security concerns
For these reasons, while traceroute was widely used during the early days of Internet, by the 1990s many Internet sites have blocked traceroute requests

This is somewhat deceptive, as there's no way to directly block traceroute requests, since traceroute just uses one of the standard network protocols (usually UDP, ICMP, or TCP). UDP-based traceroutes merely rely on the the hops and destination hosts sending ICMP_TIME_EXCEEDED and ICMP_PORT_UNREACHABLE, respectively. Standard UNIX traceroute also implements ICMP-based traceroute which uses ICMP ECHO instead of UDP. As mentioned in the article, some traceroutes use TCP.

The quoted text above oversimplifies what would be required to "block" traceroute requests (if it's even really feasible) and is thus deceptive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ramorum (talk • contribs) 23:41, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I've now flagged "many Internet sites have blocked traceroute requests" as dubious. As stated above, there is no direct way to block traceroute requests. Perhaps the article writer means that many sites/isp's block ICMP/UDP. But even then, if a site does not respond to the ICMP or UDP packets involved, it is still possible to trace the route up to the node that blocks those packets. Also the article talks about round trip time here, but it is hop count that traceroute relies on, not round trip time, wich suggests to me that the article writer confuses traceroute and ping. The security concerns section needs at least clarification. Or perhaps it is better removed, since internet security is a general concern, and not specifically related to traceroute. Jaho (talk) 14:43, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * In 2003 a worm did quite a lot of damage and it caused infected computers to send zillions of ICMP packets. Many ISPs configured routers to block all ICMP packets that had the length used by the worm. MS Windows systems use ICMP packets for tracert which happened to be the same length, and for a couple of months it was not possible to tracert. Perhaps whoever wrote the section in question had that experience, or something like it, in mind. I'm not sure how it's done, but it is true that many private networks block incoming traceroute in practice (yes, I know that there is no such thing as a "traceroute" packet, so they are blocking more than traceroute). Johnuniq (talk) 23:04, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Image necessary?
While graphical illustrations are great, I think the screenshot of a terminal emulator running traceroute is superflous, as it's output is ASCII text, which is better conveyed as preformatted text. —SvartMan (talk) 17:50, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

UDP vs ICMP
Since the original implementation by Van Jacobson used UDP and virtually all implementations, except for Windows, use UDP by default, should we not put emphasis on UDP rather than ICMP operation. Possibly starting off with stating that UDP is the more common mode measured by numbers of implementation while ICMP, having backing by the most widely deployed OS (Windows), would probably be more commonly seen? If noone objects, I would like to rewrite the article accordingly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kll (talk • contribs) 10:08, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Tracepath
Tracepath redirects here but is not mentioned in the article. ~Kvng (talk) 15:42, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

 * , :) please check it out. — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 06:18, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

 * Thanks for this and other cleanup. ~Kvng (talk) 16:25, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

 * Thank you for bringing it up in the first place. :) — Dsimic (talk | contribs) 19:41, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Add a implementations section
There are many traceroute implementations out there, some better than others. Can we add a implementations section? I am thinking of a table, with the implementation name, kind of probes supported, release date, license etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 179.126.2.222 (talk) 12:54, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

 * I support saying that there are multiple implementations of varying quality. But, it seems foolhardy to try to track all the implementations and their limitations in WP. Stevebroshar (talk) 19:52, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Clarifying "or high port UDP in Unix ping, to a site"
I think "...or high port UDP in Unix ping, to a site" means that, at least for versions of traceroute with a -p flag, you can check how far a UDP packet to a given port will go on the way to a given host. Is that what you're wondering about? Guy Harris (talk) 01:32, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , If I understand your description correctly, that seems like an obscure use of the tool. I'm inclined to remove it and change "firewalls that may be blocking ICMP traffic" so that we're discussing all types of blockage including by UDP port number. ~Kvng (talk) 01:47, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I guess the idea is that traceroute can be used to test whether packets of the type it's sending make it through firewalls, by sending them (with the usual increasing TTL) to the destination until you either get a response indicating that the TTL expired, get a response indicating that it made it, get a response that indicates that it's been blocked, or get a timeout (in which case you don't know what the problem is). That can be done with ICMP packets or UDP packets to a given port.  Are you saying that both of those are obscure uses of traceroute? Guy Harris (talk) 02:18, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , there are several methods available for testing a connection (see List Of Available Methods at ). There are a lot of options for exploring the allowable parameters for a connection and we can mention this but I don't think we should try to get at it all. The primary purpose of traceroute is to tell you the path you're using for communication. It can also tell you where in the path a failed connection is going bad. Determining which UDP ports are open through a firewall is possible but obscure. Better to use a port scanner for that. ~Kvng (talk) 13:47, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Traceroute


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ghoughphtheightteeau

Ghoughphtheightteeau was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was KEEP as a redirect.

Very bad attempt at a joke - while the similar Ghoti was marginally funny and is kind of a classic, this is a rather contrived attempt at humor. Maybe it can find a new lease on life on BJAODN -- Ferkelparade 07:58, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC) This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like other '/delete' pages is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.
 * Delete - pointless, bad joke. TPK 08:27, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete - god dammit Jim, I'm an encyclopedia, not a joke book :o) Darksun 08:37, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Merge - Put under ghoti as an alternative. It takes a lot of work to find such terrible examples of english spelling! Kim Bruning 08:56, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete - not worthy of BJAODN - TB 11:04, Aug 4, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Patent nonsense. --Starx 11:31, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Merge: I'm with the man called Kim, here:  This ought to be put as a "further example" in the Ghoti article.  This stuff does take brain cells.  Then kill the original article, of course. Geogre 12:45, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Merge and delete, and I've just done the merge. This joke is apparently currently making the rounds and "ghoughphtheightteeau" currently gets 269 Google hits. Someone more energetic than I might perhaps attempt to determine its origin. "ghoughphtheightteeau neighbor" and "ghoughphtheightteeau neighbour" get roughly equal numbers of hits BTW. I suspect the Brits though, as "hiccough" isn't a common U.S. spelling. [[User:dpbsmith|dpbsmith (talk)]] 15:44, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * I agree that it should be deleted, or simply merged into Ghoti, but I just wanted to clarify that this isn't a new joke -- I read it in a language book twenty years ago. I'm sure it even predates that, because I'm pretty sure the book I read (whose title I can't remember) wasn't the originator. Bearcat 18:41, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Redirect to ghoti, merge has already been done. Encyclopedic information, the only issue is how to index it. Agree it is not new, I can't remember when I first heard it but long ago. Andrewa 01:48, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)


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Talk:Raditz

SSJ Raditz
If Raditz turned Super Saiyajin, would he look SSJ3? - Zythe

--hmm...

More than likely, but he would still have eyebrows - Anonymous

Then why is he not mentioned at all after his death? He was a son of Bardock as well, and the older brother of the figurehead character of Dragon Ball Z!-Rufiel

Brotherly Love
Maybe he did love Goku deep down, but was so angered at the fact the Goku preferred the planet he was meant to destroy instead of his big brother that he went crazy and kidnapped Gohan and tried to force him into it. I don't know...........

I'm not sure saiyans are known for loving their siblings and children. Goku and Vegeta are the only pure-blood saiyans ever to show any feelings toward their kin (I.E. Vegeta when Trunks is kiled by Cell). Look at Bardock when he found out Goku's power level, Bardock was disappointed and went off to battle not giving Goku a second look. But, yeah maybe Raditz did love Goku deep down, but most likely not.

Actually, Bardock loved Goku, as he says something along the lines of "To give my son a better life" or something like that when he challenges Frieza Black Omnimon 23:44, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

SSJ3 Raditz
If Raditz ever became a SSJ3, his hair would get shorter because is hair is about 4 and a half feet, while a SSJ3's hair is almost 3 feet.- Dexter111344 18:47, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

 * You mean Goku and Gotenks' SSJ3 hair became 3 feet long because of the length of their original hairstyles. If Raditz became Super Saiyan 3, his hair would grow incredibly long, as if it were a king's robe. Remember how Gohan's hair was when he became a Super Saiyan for the very first time? Jienum

GT Appearance
I just watched the Super Juunanagou episodes again, and the only appearance I witnessed of Raditz was way back in the background with a bunch of other villains. At what point did Oob even fight him, let alone kill him? The S 17:29, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Uub did not fight him, that I recall, and saying he might have killed him is just speculation and doesn't belong in the article.

 * Daishokaioshin 22:50, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Thanks. I thought I was going nuts. The S 03:03, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

power level
ok what is radit accturle power level I know on your artical page and on many other sites raditz power level is stated at 1200 but I have also seen on other site variations of raditz power level one saying his power level is 1220 and an other saying 1500 could you please expand thanks User:Kami-Sama

also could you make a guess on raditz's power level during gt User:Kami-Sama

 * 1200 or "over 1200" is the powerlevel given in the anime and manga. The Daizenshuu say it is 1,500, which contradicts both of the original canon sources, and thus can be discarded as a mistake. And no, we can not guess at Raditz's powerlevel during GT because it would be speculation. There's no reason to think that Raditz got any stronger between DBZ and DBGT, but if he did, there is absolutely no way of knowing by how much. There's no need for speculation.

 * Daishokaioshin 23:33, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Akira Toriyama himself said that Raditz's power level is 1,500 (a Saibamen's power level is 1,200; Toriyama mentions that in his DB dictionary). So no, 1,500 does not contradict anything (and Daizenshuu didn't make any mistake), people just assuming that he is as strong as a Saibamen does and only because Vegeta mentions it in the Saiyan Saga, probably just dissing Raditz once more even though he's already dead by then. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:AA15:337F:7700:1104:B079:1175:2214 (talk) 13:59, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Brother or Half-Brother
I've been thinking, is Raditz actually a son of Bardock? I mean, he looks nothing like Bardock and Goku. Could it be that Raditz and Goku only had the same mother? Bardock doesn't mention Raditz at all during the Bardock Special, so who's to say that Raditz is actually his son? Jienum 12:26, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

 * The Bardock special is non-canon. We take the actual manga and anime over the movies/specials in terms of information. Raditz is Goku's brother, as stated by him. Also, he doesn't have to look like Bardock to be his son. He could take after his mother. There ARE certain features of his that resemble his father's, but they just aren't prominent.

 * Daishokaioshin 01:55, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Oh, right. And by the way, I haven't heard from you in a while, Dai. Were you blocked recently? Jienum 10:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

 * No, I just don't do much on here anymore. I come in occasionally to fix things, but that's about it.

 * Daishokaioshin 02:55, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

So Dai You going to say that a TV special that explains the actual story that is only a small part of the manga not canon? Just because Raditz is not mentioned. Man you fans and your concept on what is canon and non canon. Did you write or draw it? Did you hear Toriyama say it or read that? If it explains what happened to the last moment when Goku was found then i say that it canon. If that is not canon then Trunks's Story of the future is not either and that was in the manga too. I believe Raditz is Goku's brother but i also believe the anime version of Bardock's story. Do not say something is canon or not without PROOF or FACT. Do you have any to suggest it is not and don't use that its not part of the anime but rather the movie thing because it is not. Heat P, 03 November 2006. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.13.248.180 (talk • contribs)

 * Uhh... We don't discuss canonicity anymore on wikipedia. That post you were responding to was from way back in August, before it was decided that we "aren't allowed" to decide what is and isn't canon within articles. In response to what you said, however: I don't really care what you think is canon. If you want to think the movies are canon, you go right ahead and do that. But these talk pages are for discussing the articles they are attached to, NOT the subject of the article. If there is something about the article you wish to discuss, feel free to use this talk page. Otherwise, please keep your fan-ranting off of it.

 * Daishokaioshin 12:33, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Budokai: Tenkaichi 2 has a storyline called "Fateful Brothers" which is a What if story. In it Raditz does refer to Bardock as his father. —the preceding comment is by 70.17.196.181 (talk • contribs) 70.17.196.181 : Please sign your posts!.

Should this page be merged with the list?
Raditz was only around for a few episodes, and really didn't do that much in them. He was just a small character to move the plot along, so he really doesn't need one. Thoughts? Nemu 18:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, nevermind merging it. It should just be redirected. The info on that page is good enough. Nemu 18:11, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I oppose this merger. What I'd like to know is, what the hell happened to the images on the article? PL(DB) 23:07, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Oppose: While Raditz did not appear in the manga nor the anime for a long time his actions led to the rest of the latter part of Dragonball. This gives him an important position in the saga as well as being the brother to the main protagonist. My only advice is to keep the article short with only maybe one or two more pictures.Maphisto86 16:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment: What I'd like to know is: who deleted the pictures?! (Me | The Article) 00:23, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Strongly oppose. The S 19:32, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

No, Raditz is notable enought to have a page, besides the page is quite complete --Dark Dragon Flame 04:04, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Not really. No references, man. No references...-- SU IT  42 05:42, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Sigh, forgot about those, but still he should have his own article --Dark Dragon Flame 05:46, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Oppose:Raditz is extremely important to the series, and he's the real reason Dragon Ball Z exists. Leave the article. Shall I call in a mod to settle it? Hucz 03:48, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Strongly oppose. JamesMcCloud129 18:12, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment it seems a moderator would be needed here in case of any malicious merging. Power level (Dragon Ball) 21:00, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

What on the page is actually useful? There’s just the quick intro paragraph perfect for the list, a giant unneeded summary of five episodes, some random junk thrown under GT, and some basic attacks that really aren’t unique at all.

If a small role in the plot warrants a page, there are plenty of characters that could have articles the size of this one, while being totally minor. Nam, the filler aliens from the fake Namek mini-saga, and some other minor characters could easily have bloated pages.

Raditz is a minor character no more important than Cui (whose page is redirected). He was around to start the plot and show the strength of the saiyans. That’s all. He would do just fine on the list with other minor characters. Nemu 18:46, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

 * He kicks off the Saiyan Saga, is the protagonist's only living blood relative at the beginning of the series, his actions lead to Nappa and Vegeta coming to earth, and he was one of the last surviving Saiyans. I think the fact that he's Goku's blood brother makes him a character a bit more important than Cui. Hell, I couldn't even remember who Cui was, I had to look him up again... I see absolutely no reason to merge or redirect Raditz' page, and it appears nobody else does, either. Leave it. JamesMcCloud129 00:15, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Nemu, just be quiet and listen to what others are telling you, damn it! You won't get your way by making uncivil complaints like "but he's a minor character, blah blah blah!" And like JamesMcCloud said, he kicks off in the beginning of Dragon Ball Z and if it weren't for his notable appearance, the Z Fighters wouldn't have gotten as strong as they are now. Raditz was the one who called for Nappa and Vegeta to come to Earth, as well as involve Freeza to hunt for the Dragon Balls and such. Just face the fact that you're outnumbered and there's nothing you can do about it. Power level (Dragon Ball) 07:00, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

 * You realize that was like three weeks ago, right? You felt the need to bring it back up, so you could a have little moment of triumph? Currently, I'm out numbered by mostly people that don't get that everything doesn't need an article. Seeing as you wanted to bring this up to boost your ego, I may as well respond.

 * Your complaints hold just as little water, "He started off the series, blah blah blah." You must realize, that just because a character was used to do something, it really doesn't make him important. It means the actions were. Pretty much any character could have started off the series. The fact that he is Goku's brother really is trivial and unimportant because he dies five episodes later.

 * Now with the quality of the article, where is it? The bulk of it is a plot summary of five episodes. That's really it. The rest is just junk. This is exactly like Cui. His article was short, and he was unimportant. He was just used to sort of start off Namek and show how powerful people were, Raditz was around to start off the Saiyan Saga and show how powerful Nappa and Vegeta were. That's it. You really over signify his role in the series. Nemu 11:24, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

 * See, I'm one of those people that actually look at the glass as half full. You, on the other hand, seem to want every single character to be merged or redirected to a list of characters page. I say, as long as there is sufficient information to write about a character, no matter how big or small he/she is in the series, the character deserves to have their own article. That's it. So quit your "Quality of the article blah blah blah" and just give in. Power level (Dragon Ball) 21:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

 * I want all characters that deserve pages to have pages. Raditz is not one of them. If an article can never stand to become at least a good article, I believe it should merged. Your opinion is really not that well backed. As I've said countless times, plenty of characters could easily have pages larger than this. Do we write articles about them? No. Why? Because they're unimportant. That sort of kills your argument.

 * Quality is a very big part of this site. Writing every single detail you can instead of giving an encyclopedic summary is pointless. The character does not need every detail written. That's why it's much better suited to a list. Various policies and guidelines back this line of thought, not yours. Nemu 22:06, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

 * The concensus is No the page will be kept, end of disscusion. -Dark Dragon Flame 22:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Consensus can change. That's what I'm curently aiming for. Also, as avid fans of the show, most of the people voting could possibly be biased due to that. There's also that some people may be major "keepists" like Power Level. I'm guessing an AfD would possibly show different results. Nemu 23:14, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Not in my case; but he being a major character (regardless of being around for a short time time) makes him worthy of owning his own page, It's not like we are voting to give Saibamen their own page. -Dark Dragon Flame 23:22, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * You are an annoying one Nemu, I'll tell ya that much. For some reason, you like to go against a majority of people with "your own opinion" and say that they're the ones who are wrong. Unless you can find a specific policy or guideline that can back you up, then I see no reason why I should go against you. Hey Dark Dragon Flame, my friend, do you agree? Power level (Dragon Ball) 04:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Yeah, Nemu until you find more people to back you up the page will stay; if you find them then we can discuss this matter again, until then as of consensus no changes will be done to the status of the page. -Dark Dragon Flame 05:17, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

omg i can not stress this enough i got in touch wit a writer and raditz is not related by goku when he said brother he ment fellow sayin like us those idiot kkk people they or like us blacs we kno we aint related we just say brother "+dj+" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.247.247.55 (talk) 20:42, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Possible deletion
Okay, Nemu is getting really ridulous. He marked the article up for deletion just because everyone opposed him. I contested it so that it may stay. Now what? Will there be a discussion about this? Power level (Dragon Ball) 18:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Observation skills at work. ~SnapperTo 19:09, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Looks like this page is gonna be gone soon. We tried. Oh well. JamesMcCloud129 06:46, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Raditz


text:
Myeongjong of Goryeo

Myeongjong of Goryeo (8 November 1131 – 3 December 1202), personal name Wang Ho, was the 19th king of Korea's Goryeo dynasty. He was the third son of King Injong. His reign marked the beginning of the century-long military rule of Korea known as the Goryeo military regime.

Although it was intended that King Injong's second son should succeed his father, he was assassinated because Chŏng Chung-bu feared that he might become a threat to him in the future. Myeongjong was a weak puppet king, and was merely on the throne to show the general populace they still had a king, as the true rulers were the military leaders who had lanuched a coup against Myeongjong's father and had established a military government. Despite this, Myeongjong did attempt to play off the military leaders against each other to both secure his own survival but also in an attempt to regain royal authority. His reign saw constant bloodshed as well as the deaths of the military rulers Chŏng Chung-bu, Yi Ŭi-bang, Kyŏng Tae-sŭng, and Yi Ŭi-min.

After twenty-seven years on the throne, he was sent into exile by the military ruler of the time, Ch'oe Ch'ung-hŏn. King Injong's fifth son, King Sinjong, was placed on the throne.

Family

 * Father: Injong of Goryeo
 * Grandfather: Yejong of Goryeo
 * Grandmother: Queen Sundeok
 * Mother: Queen Gongye
 * Grandfather: Im Wŏn-hu (임원후)
 * Grandmother: Grand Lady of Jinhan State of the Bupyeong Yi clan (진한국대부인 부평 이씨)
 * Consort and their Respective issue(s):
 * 1) Queen Uijeong of the Kim clan half second cousin once removed.
 * 2) Crown Prince Wang Yŏng
 * 3) Princess Yeonhui
 * 4) Princess Suan
 * 5) Concubine Myeongchun (명춘; d. 1180)
 * 6) Concubine Sunju (순주; d. 1179)
 * 7) Unknown
 * 8) Little Prince Wang Sŏn-sa (소군 왕선사)
 * 9) Little Prince Wang Hong-gi (소군 왕홍기)
 * 10) Little Prince Wang Hong-ch'u (소군 왕홍추)
 * 11) Little Prince Wang Hong-gyu (소군 왕홍규)
 * 12) Little Prince Wang Hong-gyun (소군 왕홍균)
 * 13) Little Prince Wang Hong-gak (소군 왕홍각)
 * 14) Little Prince Wang Hong-i (소군 왕홍이)
 * 15) Royal Lady Wang (왕녀 왕씨) – married Yi Hwa-ryong (이화룡)

Popular culture

 * Portrayed by Kim Byung-se in the 2003-2004 KBS TV series Age of Warriors.

title: Myeongjong of Goryeo


text:
Talk:Same-sex marriage in the Netherlands

Germany
same-sex marriage (or civil union) is performed in Germany nationwide. Please somebody (established user) add this to the little link box.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by T maia2000 (talk • contribs) 21:52, 6 June 2008 (UTC) This page needs more info on HOW exactly the gay marriages became legal. Was it a decision of parliament? If so, how did the vote go? Or was it a court decision? user:J.J.

It was done by Parliament after the Government proposed the bill. It got large majorities in both houses of Parliament - I added these things in the article under the 'Marriage' section. -Thorin

Also some information about other churches in the Netherlands has to be found, I assume the Catholics will not bless same-sex marriage, but perhaps the 'Oud-Katholieken' do? Furthermore I assume some Protestant churches that do not belong to the Protestant Church of the Netherlands also won't bless a same-sex marriage. So, we need information about these groups too if possible.

Same-sex marriage illegal for Dutch Royals?
If I remeber correct, there is a third restriction, namely members of the Dutch royal family/The Crown Prince(ss) cannot have a same-sex marriage, unless he/she abadones his/her right to the throne.

 * Where does it say that? Are there any gay Dutch royals? Spinboy 18:41, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * There no (openly)Gay Dutch royals, but I thought they added such a ristriction to prevent possible future marriages.
 * I read something like that as well, but neither the Civil Code or Constitution mention that homosexual members of the Royal House cannot marry someone of the same sex. However, the Constitution prescribes that every royal who is eligible for the throne and wants to marry someone, must get permission from Parliament to marry that person. If not, the prince(ss) automatically loses the right to ascend the throne. So hypothetically speaking, Parliament could give permission to a gay crown prince to marry his lover, and indirectly to have a gay king and a gay prince-consort... Thorin 23:54, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Legality in the rest of the EU?
Are gay marriages performed in the Netherlands (as well as Belgium) legally recognized throughout the rest of the European Union?--Wasabe3543 16:21, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Probably not, but that's probably up for the courts to decide. --Spinboy 16:34, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * The dominant legal doctrine in all other nations considers these marriages to be absolutely void, in that they have no direct legal consequence whatsoever, though of course the factuality of a marriage would be taken into account whenever a law allows the court to decide an issue using its own discretion. However a court would often be obliged by its own legal system to apply Dutch or Belgian law when Dutch or Belgian citizens are involved in matters of family law. In those countries which have themselves a system of "partnership", the obvious course for a court would be to rule that a Belgian or Dutch gay marriage is covalent to such a partnership.

--MWAK 16:11, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Restrictions section removal
The adoption restriction appears to have been removed at the same time marriage was allowed according to this NYT article: Same-Sex Dutch Couples Gain Marriage and Adoption Rights —EqualRights (talk) 12:28, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Aruba and Antilles
I summarized this section, as it was almost identical of the main ones. Also linked to those.Thorin (talk) 18:04, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

On the necessity of mentioning that The Netherlands considers "same-sex" and "heterosexual" marraige the same...
The necessity lies in the terminology. Most countries around the world insist on thinking of "same-sex marriage" as being something different (and usually less worthy) than "regular marriage". Particularly the United States (within the nations that don't want to kill gays outright) gets its knickers into a twist about not placing gay relationships on the same level with straight ones. For that reason it is important to point out that the term "same-sex marriage" is incorrect in that The Netherlands doesn't have a specific "same-sex marriage", but one single, civil marriage open to all couples. -- BenTels (talk) 01:42, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It unnecessary. In all countries and states where same-sex couples can legally marry, marriage is defined as a union between two people. It obvious is one marriage law. In all these countries same-sex couples was allowed to marry by change existing definition of marriage. There is no need to explain that. This sentence: the main article in the Act changed article 1:30 in the marriage law to read as follows: Een huwelijk kan worden aangegaan door twee personen van verschillend of van gelijk geslacht. (A marriage can be contracted by two people of different or the same sex) is absolutely enough. It explains everything. Ron 1987 02:06, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

What after the dissolution of the Netherlands Antilles????
The Netherlands Antilles was officially dissolved on 10 Oct. 2010, and Saba, Sint Eustatius and Bonaire became part of the Netherlands proper. Is same-sex marriage legal in these 3 special Dutch municipalities? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.69.2.171 (talk) 22:33, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * still the same situation as before the dissolution; as |this part of the civil code was copy-pased from |the Netherlands antilles version: Het huwelijk kan slechts bestaan tussen een man en een vrouw. (Marriage only exists between a man and a woman). I will make some changes and provide refs... L.tak (talk) 09:12, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Merger proposal not including this page: merger of same sex marriage articles in the kingdom of the Netherlands in the caribbean.
I have put forward a Merge proposal, which does not include this page, but which might be of interest. Proposal is to merge Same-sex marriage in Curaçao, Same-sex marriage in the Netherlands Antilles Same-sex marriage in Aruba and Same-sex marriage in Sint Maarten to the new page Same-sex marriage in Aruba, Curaçao, Sint Maarten and the Caribbean Netherlands. Discussion is taking place here. L.tak (talk) 08:05, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

refs consistency
I can think of more important things, but in view of consistency I'd like to discuss the ref setting. It is presently quite a mix between [url title], [bare url], NL-con [bare url], NL-icon,. My personal preference is the latter, but I believe NL-icon is the easiest form which has a significant history on this page... L.tak (talk) 14:32, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

the term homohuwelijk....
The term homohuwelijk is used routinely in the Netherlands for same-sex marriage, while the term "huwelijk van personen van gelijk geslacht" only is used in formal occasions. Therefore I think it is very useful here. It was however added and removed twice by Ron (as "dispensable"), so I am starting the discussion here... L.tak (talk) 15:21, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not a place for a colloquial terms. This article is titled Same-sex marriage in the Netherlands, not Gay marriage in the Netherlands. Useful? Very doubtful. Ron 1987 (talk) 15:41, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is a place to learn for all of us and relevant terms (even if they can be considered strictly not fully correct). Homohuwelijk is the term normally used for this type of marriage (although I'll be the first to agree it does not exist by law, where only the "marriage between people of the same or different sex" exists), which is clear from virtually all Dutch refs in the article and it therefore is useful to have it in... The title of this article uses the most neutral form, but that does not mean other forms used in synonymy should not be used... L.tak (talk) 15:57, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * This idea is very doubtful and I am a strong opponent. Dutch colloquial terms are not needed and are dispensable. This article is in English, not Dutch. Ron 1987 (talk) 16:05, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with L.tak. I mean, take a look around on Wikipedia, and you'll see the word colloquial used a lot. That being what it is, and moving on: all of the Dutch names given to Same-sex marriage are basically the same, though slightly different. The formal way is 'huwelijk van personen van gelijk geslacht', but this is never used as such colloquially. It is called 'homohuwelijk' by the media. And, third, many homosexuals themselves find it degrating to refer to it as 'homohuwelijk', for they don't see themselves as 'special', so they refer to it simply as 'huwelijk' (marriage), which, basically, is correct, as the law itself is literally speaking of 'openstelling van het huwelijk' (opening of the marriage). This does make a diferrence, for the Dutch SSM is nót a special law, it is the already existing law concerning marriage, only re-edited. Robster1983 (talk) 16:10, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The neutrality and correctness of the term Gay marriage is doubtful. The term gay often refers only to homosexual men. What about lesbians? Not only two men, but also two women are allowed to marry in the Netherlands. Only most neutral and correct term should be used in the article. Ron 1987 (talk) 16:16, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

In English language, being gay can refer to both homosexual- and lesbian people (the fact is, that 'gay' wasn't a word directed towards homosexual- and lesbian people to begin with, for it used to mean 'happy' or 'joyful'). In Dutch, the word 'homo' in 'homohuwelijk' refers to both. However, I think I can put it in this article, without being part of the lead-in. Of course, I have all the sources to back it up. Robster1983 (talk) 17:51, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Can refer to both homosexual and lesbian people or not. It's a question of interpretation. The correctness of the term is doubtful. It should not be used in the article. Ron 1987 (talk) 18:09, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * In the Netherlands it is often used to both. With homohuwelijk it clearly refers to both; a specific female version is never used indeed. With it being the predominant use for the topic I think it really should be in the lead. Maybe we should change the term "colloquially" to "normally" or specify that it is for both sexes? L.tak (talk) 18:24, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but I (and, apparently L.tak) really feel that this should get some mentioning in the article (not in the lead-in, I agree with that one). I really want to put this in the article, for I have all the sources needed to back it up. However, I'm not looking to get into a giant edit-war, so maybe there is a way, if needed via some mediator, to settle this. Robster1983 (talk) 18:27, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, the discussion is still young. Let's wait a few days and see if we can establish consensus. Shall I post a note on WikiProject LGBT studies so that members there can react as well?L.tak (talk) 18:35, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Often it's a relative concept. The term gay have 2 meanings. The correctness of the term Gay marriage is doubtful. Ron 1987 (talk) 18:40, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Then let's not use "gay marriage", but use "homohuwelijk" untranslated as it seems to be the translation which is off... As for relative terms: google gives 115 hits on it; and 10x less onthe other term (the first term coming up by the way is nl:homohuwelijk). How does using the untranslated version sound? L.tak (talk) 18:47, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Satisfied? Ron 1987 (talk) 19:03, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * As far as the intro is concerned: Yes, that looks like ok and neutral to me... (could you also reply on the naming suggestion below by robster?)! L.tak (talk) 19:07, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

I also would like to add that it seems that everything added is qualified as 'dispensable', and although I admire your (referred to Ron 1987) attitude so that this article stays of good quality (I really do), just removing edits made by others, though never starting a discussion (or at least give an explanation as about why), might just create a status-quo, a standstill. If every Wki-article follows that path, then there's nothing to be done around here. Just to let everyone see what I had in mind, concerning this article, you can find it here. I'm not sure about the title, though, and I'm sure other things might be ready to be improved also. But at least now people know what it's all about. :) Robster1983 (talk) 18:42, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I am ok with that section; it's well referenced and to the point. This discussion makes clear that some extra explanation seems indeed to be useful. You could also add the introductory law (law changing the marriage law) "Wijziging van Boek 1 van het Burgerlijk Wetboek in verband met de openstelling van het huwelijk voor personen van hetzelfde geslacht" to clarify more that it is really a single marriage definition. I would make the heading: "Naming", or "Name".. L.tak (talk) 19:05, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I added homohuwelijk to the intro. I think it's enough. The section about name is not necessary.Ron 1987 (talk) 19:09, 6 March 2011 (UTC).
 * Well, if everyone can find themselves in both the intro and the article as it is right now, then I'm not gonna push it any further, and will agree with Ron 1987. And although I won't push it any further, I do think that there's no harm in putting the translations with it (as even Google translates 'homohuwelijk' as 'gay marriage', see |en|homohuwelijk, and the article about same-sex marriage itself is also including 'gay marriage' in its lead-in/intro). But again: if this satisfactory for everyone, then I'm gonna join that satisfaction. :) Robster1983 (talk) 20:19, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110817080131/http://globalgayz.com/country/Europe/view/EU/gay-european-union-news-and-re-2 to http://globalgayz.com/country/Europe/view/EU/gay-european-union-news-and-re-2#article10

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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 01:37, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Weddinginholland.jpg


text:
Sinjong of Goryeo

Sinjong of Goryeo (11 August 1144 – 15 February 1204, r. 1197–1204), personal name Wang T'ak, was the twentieth monarch of the Goryeo dynasty of Korea. The fifth son of King Injong, King Sinjong took the throne after his brother King Myeongjong was sent into exile by Ch'oe Ch'ung-hŏn.

He was wise, but like his brother before him had no true power, which was in the hands of Ch'oe Ch'ung-hŏn (this marked the beginning of the Choe family's military rule). Sinjong's reign was marked by waves of civil uprisings, such as rebellions and uprisings in Myeongju, Jinju, Geumju, Hapcheon, Gyeongju, and Gwangju. Sinjong also witnessed the kin strife of the Choe family and soon after became ill, abdicating in favor of his son King Huijong due to Choe's demands.

Family

 * Father: Injong of Goryeo (29 October 1109 – 10 April 1146)
 * Grandfather: Yejong of Goryeo (11 February 1079 – 15 May 1122)
 * Grandmother: Queen Sundeok of the Inju Yi clan (15 April 1094– 21 September 1118)
 * Mother: Queen Gongye of the Jangheung Im clan
 * Grandfather: Im Won-hu
 * Grandmother: Lady Yi, of the Bupyeong Yi clan
 * Consorts and their Respective issue(s)
 * 1) Queen Seonjeong of the Kim clan (d. 17 August 1222), second half-cousin once removed
 * 2) Huijong of Goryeo (21 June 1181 – 31 August 1237), first son
 * 3) Wang Sŏ, Duke Yangyang, second son
 * 4) Princess Hyohoe (1183–1199), first daughter
 * 5) Princess Gyeongnyeong, second daughter

Popular culture

 * Portrayed by Lee Woo-seok in the 2003–2004 KBS TV series Age of Warriors.

title: Sinjong of Goryeo


text: User talk:202.163.236.226

title: User talk:202.163.236.226


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Good Morning

Good Morning was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was KEEP as a redirect.

Useless dictdef, I don't see any potential for this article. -- Ferkelparade 08:23, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC) This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like other '/delete' pages is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.
 * Delete - Greeting (verbal) redirects here, but that ought to be a general list of greetings, in multiple languages, which doesn't appear to already exist. Individual greetings don't need articles, (except maybe redirects to the list). TPK 08:49, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * There's surely room on Wikipedia for information on verbal greeting customs. I've replaced Greeting (verbal) with a suitable stub and, with the agreement of the VfD lister, will redirect Good Morning to it. - TB 11:19, Aug 4, 2004 (UTC)
 * Redirect to greeting (verbal). Agreed w/ TB. Wile E. Heresiarch 13:35, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Concur- having a page for each and every greeting-phrase, all of which have effectively the same semantic content, is silly; one page can index them all, with context, and be very helpful. Redirect.-FZ 16:37, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Austral Líneas Aéreas

Sorting out Astral, Aerolíneas Argentinas and Cielos del Sur
I am having difficulty understanding the intertwined relationships and history of Austral, Cielos del Sur and Aerolíneas Argentinas.

If I understand the history correctly, Austral was absorbed by Aerolineas, but then sold to Cielos del Sur -- but still functioning as if it were part of Aerolíneas Argentinas? Austral and Aerolíneas Argentinas have the same website, but different IATA codes?

Is the proper name for the airline Austral-Cielos del Sur, or just Austral? Is (or was) Cielos del Sur a stand-alone airline at one point? IATA seems to be listing Cielos del Sur as having the designator code AU, which would suggest it was Austral's code originally... help! I'm really confused. Kevyn 08:23, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

As I understand it, Cielos del Sur SA was once the owner of Austral (sort of Cielos del Sur was the company name and Austral was the brand). There was always a relationship between Austral and Aerolineas Argentinas, but that relationship is not very clear to me, specially in the pre-privatization era. I think that, while Aerolíneas Argentinas was a state company, Cielos del Sur SA was a state-owned incorporated company (which is not legally the same thing).

However, Areolíneas Argentinas and Austral worked like two isolated companies for a lot of years, and they still do in many ways.

When Iberia bought Aerolíneas Argentinas, it bought Austral too. But they were kept as two sepatarate companies. Then they started to unify some areas, mainly human resources and marketing.

Then Marsans bought both Aerolíneas Argentinas and Austral, which is the current state. The inegration continued, mainly in the commercial areas and now with some corporative departments like quality assurance. The main technical and operative areas such as flight operations, mintainnance, quality control and enginnering remain independent.

I know some things from inside sources. There are cultural issues because Aerolínas Argentinas has a very long history as a state company that would not give profits and would take money from the state's budget, while Austral is much more young and was born as an incorporated (while state owned) who had to live from its own budget. Austral as a much more flat structure and more lean approach. There are fewer people in Austral (comparatively with the size of the operations) but they typically earn more than the comparable possition in Aerolíneas. Now things have changed, but Austral was used to be less strict in favor of flexibility, what can be reflected in the safety record: Aerolíneas, with more years of history and a larger operation and covering both the domestic and the international markets, has only one fatal and early accident in the jet era (I think it was a Comet or a Caravel) (an excelent record considering that it was the first Southamerican airline to operate jets). Austral, which was born well within the jet era and has a much smaller opperation, had at least four that I can remember now. As I said, things have changed now (no serious airline plays with safety as a variable anymore) and Austral hasn't had a fatal accident in more than 10 years now.

Hope it helped somehow. Still a lot of research to do if someone wants to fix the article. 168.226.230.70 03:02, 1 May 2007 (UTC) Gabriel

 * I think it was a Comet or a Caravel => I couldn't find info on that accident, but it should have been a Comet IV. AFAIK, Aerolineas Argentinas did never operate the Caravelle, however six Comet IV were purchased in 1958 and incorporated from March 1959 on. (source:, retrieved on 27-06-2008). Regards, DPdH (talk) 02:05, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

The fleet is wrong
The fleet shown in this article as per today is the combined domestic fleet of Arolíneas Argentinas AND Austral. Check the Austral or the Aerolíneas Argeninas web page (which is the same except for the URL!) 168.226.230.70 03:07, 1 May 2007 (UTC) Gabriel

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 15:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Austral Líneas Aéreas