text:
Talk:Palace of the Parliament

Depth 92 m
92 m under ground? This seems to be a joke. (anon)

I don't think so. I've been there. It would not be out of proportion. Here it is on a tourist site about Bucharest, which looks reliable on all counts I can verify, even if its English isn't so great. -- Jmabel 02:03, Aug 11, 2004 (UTC)

It's really deep, as the soil in the area isn't terribly good for building anything massive. Elevator buttons go to P-8 and that, given the 5 meters height of a floor as much as 40 meters (some floors are 10 meters high). The building has nuclear shelters, and air raid shelters. It's not so much if you ask me, given what's outside. --Xanthar 7 July 2005 20:27 (UTC)

Flag, POV
Among the material recently added to the article by a new user was a paragraph that seems to me partly useful, but too POV. I made some minor copy edits to it, but I think it has some bigger problems, so I thought I'd make my comments here to allow response before I make changes. Comments interspersed with the text:

A recent addition to the building property was a rooftop national flag. It is believed, in the absence of true government-released figures, that the flag cost in the tens of thousands of dollars, in a country fraught with social and economic difficulties, coupled with efforts to recover from the consequences of the devastating Communist regime. ''The flag, widely regarded as a costly useless purchase, was part of government spending.  In addition to the flag, a glass annex was built at the cost of millions of taxpayers for no publicised reason.  An exterior elevator was added which, by all accounts, improves access to most of the west wing, still in the works of completion.'' -- Jmabel | Talk 04:47, Dec 19, 2004 (UTC)
 * Recent as of when?
 * Believed by whom? It would be a lot better if we can cite a source on this, although no disaster if we can't.
 * Why "true" government-released figures? Has the government released false figures? If not, "true" should go.
 * The rest of this really gets into editorializing. I'd certainly accept "in a country fraught with economic difficulties," although I'd rather see a citation of a newspaper editorial or some such to this effect. "Social" difficulties seem irrelevant, this is just a matter of money. The random swipe at the former Communist regime seems out of place, they already take enough flak in this article.
 * "...widely regarded..." but again no citation. And the sentence seems redundant to what was just said, anyway. I'd drop this.
 * Well, everything done by a national government is a cost to "millions of taxpayers", but we don't normally say so. So I'd just say "In addition to the flag, a glass annex was built for no publicised reason."
 * No further issues.

The flag is now out of the question. The investment was not approved, and the flag will no longer be installed. The glass annex is part of two museums thate are housed by the building :the Museum of Contemporary Art and the Museum and Park of Totalitarianism and Socialist Realism. The huge tent near the building is there for unknown reason --Xanthar 7 July 2005 20:27 (UTC)

Myths and Misconceptions
Sorry to say this, but while I like this sort of information, that section is poorly written and just screams POV. To call something preposterous in an encyclopedia article is definitely not objective writing, and to call upon some 592 million US$ to prove a point is silly. First of all any airport terminal costs about 10 times as much as that number nowadays. I'd have like to read about the actual most expensive building instead. I think a myths and misconceptions section should do much better to prove its point. Furthermore the english version of the article is lacking a lot of info that other languages deliver without trouble. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.178.78.50 (talk) 15:41, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Contribution revised
Thanks for the feedback. Indeed, there were many oversights. That's what happens when writing at midnight after a hectic day. I have just done some research and can now complete my affirmations. I have overlooked the discussion page before going down to writing the segment, and I can now tell you, as a native Bucharestian and a "neighbor" of the building in question, the House has never been refered to as the Madman's House (Casa Nebunului). Many tourists have come my way and never have I heard such a reference. It is without a doubt a plausible nickname, but, in my books, not a real one.

Second, there is one amendment in connection to one of your passages.

Since 1994, the building has housed Romania's parliament.

That is partly accurate. The Romanian parliament is bicameral, with the Senate and the Chamber of Deputies. It is true the building has come to perform this function since 1994, but it only housed the Chamber of Deputies until early 2004. During this time, the Senate had its own building, which the pre-1989 administration dubbed "The Center Comittee", the Headquarters of the Romanian Communist Party. After the overthrow, the building was renamed "The Senate Building". It was only after 2004 that the Senate was relocated.

P.S. You've done some pretty amazing work here at Wikipedia. --Chandler 17:55, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)

 * Good work. I followed with a few further copy edits. Yes, we should probably drop Casa Nebunului, even though I have heard it independently from two Bucharasters, it is obviously not really widespread, and I lack good written citations. And, yes, we should mention that the former Central Committee building functioned as the Senate building for many years, and probably also mention the controversy about the cost of moving the Senate to the Palace of Parliament.

 * Question: where did the parliament sit 1990-1994? -- Jmabel | Talk 19:21, Dec 19, 2004 (UTC)

 * I'll start with the last enquiry. The parliament was reinstated in 1991, not 1990, as the first democratic constitution following the Revolution was adopted on November 21, 1991. You should note the Parliament hasn't had a common home building for the two chambers until this year. Before settling in the present building, it sat in a small palace by the Romanian Patriarchate on the Patriarchate Hill a couple of miles away. I am not sure as to when the Chamber moved to the present Palace of Parliament: 1994 or 1996.
 * That would be a very good idea indeed to draw on the Senate controversy. Maybe make reference to the tennis courts inside the Palace perimeter. And also some interior photos. --Chandler 17:55, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)

 * What was the palace by Dealul Patriarhiei? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:34, Dec 20, 2004 (UTC)
 * I have no idea right now. Things are rather tricky here right now, with all the political oblivion. I'll see into it shortly. --Chandler 17:55, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)

OK, for now I'll take what we've got. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:25, Dec 20, 2004 (UTC) In case you're wondering, I took the last photo from my own apartment. Isn't it lovely? --Chandler 17:55, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)
 * Cool! How's the plumbing (or shouldn't I ask?) -- Jmabel | Talk 01:17, Dec 23, 2004 (UTC)
 * Great actually!! :)
 * Cool! -- Jmabel | Talk 07:17, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)
 * Why don't we change the article title? It is misleading (by reason of specificity) and one would find it difficult to work their way to this page by searching. Alternatively I suggest we name it "(the) Romanian Palace of (the) Parliament " OR "People's Palace of Romania" (as it is popularly referred to in many touristic and city guides). All for now. Merry Christmas (albeit overdue) and a Happy New Year. --Chandler 00:23, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)
 * I had earlier used a more specific title and someone moved it here. I personally would have no problem with a more specific title, although it would mean small edits to the articles that link here. I would point out, though, that you (or anyone) can create any number of redirects from names you think someone might reasonably type in. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:17, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)

I didn't know that. And how do I do that? There's a number of people who have complained for not being able to get to the article. --Chandler 12:09, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)
 * Nevermind. I found out and started working on a few. --Chandler 17:55, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)

Anon remarks
heya people.

nice comments but I wonder how much of this is true, have you ever been there have you aver saw what was in his mind all that I hear is ruthless comments. Think one men has built it the others are going to keep it. About the size of this palace... it's huge that I can tell you think about it that is a city inside another one a state in a state - since that was the original purpose.

Personally I have a mix feeling about that building the size doesn't represent us but the craftsmanship is superb that is why were are famous about. Also let's face it the building was made in record time in only 5 years -60%. Nowadays if you want to build a house or a street that normally shouldn't take more that I don't know maximum 5 month take like for ever.

In some countries this palace is called the white elephant has no use is just to admire and wonder for what, but in the same time your eyes are attracted to the luxury, power, and riches that are in that palace. A warning although megalomania hmm you are not born with it you get sick of it. It's like a disease once it got you lose your mind- take a look through the history the great rulers they had power, luxury but with that cost ???.

Anyway about this Palace or the House Of People- for which have died so many and suffered a palace with an official surface of 365.000 sqm. a palace that is the beginning had it all, offices, receptions halls, assembly halls, restaurants, printing shop, swimming pool, drug store, concert halls, and so much more, but now seats like an sleeping giant ignored and hated by everyone. It is true that to build this Ceausescu ( our beloved ruler lol :) in his mind maybe) had to destroy 7 sqm from the old civic center of Bucharest and relocate 40.000 people from the area but what is done is done. Anyway I'm looking on the streets of Bucharest they aren't able to maintain what is left from the old city the houses are falling apart, so why all this comments. When Bucharest will become a nicer, clean city then they can talk and accuse until then let's face it the only thing that is going ok write now in Romania is just the corruption.

The was a saying don't hate the man for what he was but love his work in this I will let you state the comments. (25 June 2005)

 * Yes, I, for one, have been there, and judging by previous discussions, so have several others who have contributed to the article. I have toured the Palace; I've also been in a good number of other palaces of Europe, and the U.S. White House, so I think I have a fair basis for comparison. In the details, some of the craftsmanship is excellent, but in the aggregate, the building is an abomination. It is mediocrity writ large.

 * Imagine what even a fraction of this expenditure could have done to repair the existing buildings of what was once the Paris of the East, instead of building a monument to megalomania. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:01, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)

 * Yup, the cost was huge. Imagine that they no longer measured construction supplies by the ton, but by the truck, and they used to count in dozens of trucks/day of work. I agree, the craftsmanship is overall at best mediocre, at worst an abomination. Pictures make it seem acceptable in size, but when it takes an hour to walk around it, you see how big it really is. And it's decorated with small kitschy flowers and flower like ornaments. In 1990 they considered tearing it down, but they found out that the quantity of explosives needed was way to much to even ponder such a fact.

Photos
I've got some photos of the inside of the building that I took last year, but the article already has a lot of pictures. Anyone think I should add them somewhere? CTOAGN 09:56, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * You can put them to Wikimedia Commons, there is a category named Palaces in Romania. Or perhaps you should create a separate category for the Palace of the Parliament. — Monedula 11:39, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * And you can add a Gallery at the bottom of this article. -- Jmabel | Talk

 * I was impressed with the Vatican rooms in Amen. and later found it was shot in this palace. Could you add something usable to illustrate the film article? --Error 00:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

 * They did shoot the film inside that Palace of Parliament, they actually glued some wallpaper on the walls to make it look like genuine artwork that one would find inside the Vatican itself. They didn't take down the wallpapers, the tour guide said they look nice. So the photos are correctly placed in that article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.122.95.117 (talk) 00:24, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Recent anon edits: are these accurate?

 * "...was intended to serve as a palace for Nicolae Ceauşescu" became "...was intended to serve as headquarters for all the major state institutions." Is the latter true? Is the former false? I can easily imagine it may have been intended to serve as both: the eastward-facing balcony onto what is now B-dul Unirii sure looks to me like it was precisely intended as a place for the dictator to look outward from an imposing position. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:25, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * "Officially renamed first as the House of the People (Casa Poporului) and then the Palace of the People (Palatul Poporului, a name which many Bucharesteans still use to refer to it)..." "Officially renamed as the House of the People (Casa Poporului)..." Was it never officially Palatul Poporului? I've certainly heard it called that. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:25, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Effective cost of the building
I cut the following recent addition:

"Considering the extraordinary finish and quality of the buildings interiour (tons of marble, crystal, handicrafts etc.) the building is often considered to be the most expensive one in the world (that is, if someone would like to build a replica)."

That might be true, but it needs a citation. And I'm not at all sure it is true: even with the large scale of the Palace, it is hard to imagine that it really would be more expensive to replicate than, say, Versailles, which has an even higher standard of craftsmanship. Or, for that matter, certain cathedrals, which required large amounts of difficult and very technical stonecutting. Again: I'm not sure whether this is true or false, but we shouldn't just assert it, we should cite an authority as saying so. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:01, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I found an estimation of the materials used at http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/cat/2861/display/3175968. Generaly when you make a toured visit they tell you some of these numbers, but I couldn't remember them exactly. --Orioane 14:25, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

"deposit"
"Currently used as a deposit" makes no sense. Possibly "warehouse" (Romanian: depozit)? -- Jmabel | Talk 00:00, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, of course. I was tired. Mabye we could write something more about that Stadium. It was the main stadium of Buc, with a beautiful Art Deco architecture and I've read some yers ago that the initial plan was for it to be destroyed, but it was covered in a rush, without removing the benches from some sections. You can see it when you go up the Izvor Street towards the Mariott hotel. --Orioane 00:33, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
 * So should it be "warehouse", "storage area", or "dump": I belive Romanian depozit is broad enough to cover any of these. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:23, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Warehouse because it was used by the Romanian National Library and other institutions to deposit different kinds of stuff. Also there was also a parking, but it was in bad shape. -Orioane 07:45, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

size of palace within city
I have cut a sentence saying that the palace plus surroundings were sais to have been of about one fifth of the city. Maybe the figure refers to the total demolition in bucharest (which is a different issue); otherwise it is absurd.

 * It was poorly worded. I have restored what was presumably meant: "Constructing the Palace and the Centru Civic required demolishing about one-fifth of the historic districts of Bucharest." - Jmabel | Talk 05:36, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

The claim: "the second largest building in the world after The Pentagon in the United States," is wrong. Topkapi Palace in Istanbul is nearly twice the size of this building, at 7.5 million square feet. Lorzu (talk) 13:30, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Dead link
User:Marudubshinki reported the link http://daily-news.ro/article_detail.php?idarticle=10221 to be dead 04:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC). User:H005 then removed it (and removed Marudubshinki's notice from this talk page). Since this link was listed as a reference, it should not simply be removed without a trace (see Citing sources). The captino on it was "Source for the cafeteria news". That is poorly constructed citation (no author, title), so it may be very hard to find an equivalent link. Still, the page may eventually surface on the Internet Archive. The (English-language) Bucharest Daily News still exists, so if no one has another citation for this, it is possible that someone could either track down a paper copy or contact them for an electronic one. - Jmabel | Talk 21:35, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Bucharest Daily News seems to have totally trashed their archive search function; no idea if this is longterm or temporary. - Jmabel | Talk 21:40, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Architectural style
The structure combines elements and motifs from multiple recognized architectural styles, making its classification impossible for architectural critics. "Impossible"? I seriously doubt this. Could we please have some source for this? Also, it looks quite Stalinist (given the recent construction date Neo-Stalinist) to me, but I may be wrong. Here's a website describing it as Stalinist (it isn't really a reliable source, but at least it's something). Todor→Bozhinov 10:35, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I can't resist mentioning that in my own 2001 guide to Bucharest, slightly updated since, I called it "Bourbon Stalinist", but I'm probably not citable. - Jmabel | Talk 02:57, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

This paragraph struck me too - accordingly, I asked for sources for this quite opaque formulation.

"Bourbon Stalinist" is fine ! You probably meant a sort of stalinist rococo. A friend of mine, architect, forcasted in the mid '70s the onset of this "style", but couldn't dream of such an "achievement" as the House of the People. Ironically, the centru civic shapes the taste of many young Romanians, as one can see from some edits around here. --Vintila Barbu 18:04, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

 * And from some buildings in northern Bucharest. - Jmabel | Talk 01:23, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

It's actually Neoclassic-Revival. Neoclassic architecture was also the basis for Stalinism, Stalinism is a derogatory term applied to the design of buildings constructed during his rule.

-Anonymous Contributor, 2007

Cotidinianul
Today's issue of Cotidianul has some details on the Palace: http://cotidianul.ro/index.php?id=8633&art=22486&cHash=5917fa5eeo

bogdan 21:22, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Source of materials?
Under description section, the 4th paragraph states "The building is constructed entirely of materials of Romanian origin". However, the second paragraph states the bldg includes 900,000 cubic meters of wood (over 95% domestic). Clearly, there's a contradiction between 95% and entirely. Which is accurate? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.2.147.18 (talk) 02:53, 13 March 2007 (UTC).

The 5% reffers to the mahogany wood recived as a present by Ceausescu from his friend, Mobutu Sese Seko, president of Zair, from which some of the monumental doors are made. It is the only non-romanian item used in the construction.

Guinness Book
The first paragraph of the article says that the building "currently holds three records homologated by the Guinness Book of World Records". However, the link provided as reference is to the "World Records Academy". Can someone provide a valid link to the Guinness Book or a citation from the hard copy book? apancu | Talk 09:55, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

 * The Guinness Book of World Records certainly does not have the records mentioned in the article (as of January 2012). I'm removing that comment, and replacing it with the reference to "World Records Academy", though the latter site seems somewhat sketchy. Legendre17 (talk) 14:36, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Two opinions
The appearance of this Palace loudly brings one word to mind: Stalinist.

The scale of the Palace, and the damage its erection did to a large part of Bucharest's city centre, remind me of the plans Albert Speer drew up for a post-victory Berlin, to be renamed Germania. The information in this entry confirms my long-standing suspicion that Ceacescu was a fascist megalomaniac in Marxist clothing. When I gaze on photographs of this Palace, my mind hears goose-stepping.132.181.160.42 (talk) 02:22, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Wrong info
The 2nd paragraph says: "According to the Guinness Book of World Records...", which is NOT true; the World Records Academy listed these records: Largest administrative building-world record set by The Palace of the Romanian Parliament (WorldRecordsAcademy (talk) 11:17, 15 January 2010 (UTC))

Introductory superlatives
The intro paragraph says "second largest administrative building in the world", but the cited reference limits this context to "for civilian use," which is an arbitrary and essentially irrelevant point in this context. There are at least two "administrative buildings" that are dramatically larger, as mentioned by others here: Topkapi Palace and the Pentagon. Another sentence compares the volume of this structure with that of the Temple of the Feathered Serpent, but that structure is a pyramid that is largely solid, like any other pyramid. It has some rooms inside, but not many, and given that fact, it's inevitable that the Temple of the Feathered Serpent must weigh dramatically more than the Palace of the Parliament. The List of largest buildings in the world article shows SEVEN builldings with more internal volume than the Palace. So basically I think all of these superlatives (and those under the Technical Details heading) need to be removed. The specific facts in the Materials section will stand to illustrate the magnitude of the achievement here. I'll wait for feedback here before making any changes, but if anyone wants to be bold, I think that's fine too. 71.197.166.72 (talk) 21:09, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

It made second place in a ArchDaily list for "most expensive, unsuccessful and shameful architectural projects ever made"
A "revert conflict" that was started by the above "statement".--81.101.159.55 (talk) 22:45, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi IP, please don't revert the changes again until it is discussed here and consensus is gained. I think we need to confirm if ArchDaily is a reliable source as it appears to be a weblog covering architectural news. Just because it is popular site visited and on Facebook doesn't automatically mean it is reliable. NZFC  (talk) 22:56, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your reply sir, who and how will confirm, or not, that ArchDaily is reliable.--81.101.159.55 (talk) 06:41, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Even the (unduly promotional) Wikipedia article about ArchDaily describes it as a weblog. Maproom (talk) 07:07, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi sir, i don't think a average of 30 views/day is "promotion" for a site who has 8 million unique visitors/month, it is most visited "architecture website".

My interest is not about ArchDaily, but about the fact that that Casa Poporului a.k.a Palace of Parliament is expensive (to build&"operate"), unsuccessful (even for the purpose that it was "designed" by dictator Ceausescu) and a shameful architectural project (build at time when Romanians could buy food only with "state coupons" after queuing for long hours and number of calories that people could eat was calculated by communist party "scientists".) Have a nice day.--81.101.159.55 (talk) 09:35, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Well unless you have a reliable source that states that, it can't be added to this article as ArchDaily isn't reliable. NZFC  (talk) 10:31, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I think that ArchDaily is actually a reliable source. Per its own website, it has its own editorial team and it has procedures to correct errors. In addition, it is used as a source by the Washington Post and the Chicago Tribune . Thinker78 (talk) 05:44, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks and I see you've taken it too reliable sources noticeboard so will see what others think.  NZFC  (talk) 09:42, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

Although I think ArchDaily is a reliable source, I wonder if the writer of the original article intended to rank in order those constructions or if the numbering is just a random bullet list. Thinker78 (talk) 18:18, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Good point. IMHO, why put numbers if the author didn't want to "rank" them buildings? I have seen many "lists" of x,y,z were there were no numbers, just alphabetical order.--81.101.159.55 (talk) 19:00, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Because bullet points can be numbers instead of points or squares without the number meaning a rank, the numbers can be used just to keep count of the items in the bullet list, without any ranking order. Thinker78 (talk) 07:10, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Major Sections
Perhaps this article could benefit from more major section headings? Especially concerning the architecture of the building beyond just the materials used. Thanks for your time! Mdcarroll99 (talk) 06:24, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Not the heaviest building in the world
OK so Guinness says this building is the heaviest in the world at about 4 million tonnes. The Great Pyramid of Giza aka the Pyramid of Cheops weighs about 6 million tonnes. Surely it is a building too, it has rooms and halls and everything. The Three Gorges Dam is about twice as heavy still, and would no doubt have even more rooms, hallways, toilet facilities, walkways, windows etc, everything you would see in a typical building. 1dragon (talk) 10:06, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
 * "Rooms and halls" are not what makes a building. Current definition of a building in Wikipedia is that it has walls and a roof; similar definitions can be found in most dictionaries. Neither the pyramid nor the dam meet this definition. Those are structures, but not buildings. -- H005 (talk) 10:41, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Palace of the Parliament


text:
Kinnim

Kinnim (Hebrew: קינים) is a tractate in the order of Kodshim in the Mishna. The name, meaning "nests", refers to the tractate's subject matter of errors in bird-offerings. It is the last tractate in the order, because of its shortness (3 chapters) and because it deals with a very rare and unusual area of Jewish law.

The premise of the tractate is the obligatory bird-offering that has to be brought by certain people (for instance Nazirites at the completion of their vow and women after childbirth). The offering consists of a pair of birds, one for a sin-offering and the other for a peace-offering. A common practice was to purchase a cage with two birds, without designating which one was for which type of sacrifice. The Kohen would then allocate a sacrifice to a bird. However, the complication is that a cage (consisting of a pair of birds) cannot have both birds offered as one type of sacrifice. The result is that if birds become mixed up (whether completely or a number of birds flies from one group to another), certain birds are disqualified from being offered. It is the laws of these complications that form the subject of tractate Kinnim.

The tractate consists of three chapters:
 * Chapter 1 deals largely with cases where birds flew into a designated group or where different groups of birds became totally mixed up.
 * Chapter 2 considers the group from which a bird flew away, as well as multiple mixups
 * Chapter 3 considers which sacrifices are counted if the Kohen did offer certain birds, without consulting the laws of chapters 1 and 2.

There is no Gemara on Kinnim in either the Talmud Bavli or the Talmud Yerushalmi. However, the Mishnayot of the tractate are included in the Daf Yomi cycle, and are printed in the standard editions of the Talmud. A traditional explanation for this has been that the addition of the tractate enabled all the tractates of Kodshim to be studied in the Daf Yomi cycle. In the standard edition, Kinnim is located in a volume which contains Meilah, Kinnim, Tamid and Midot. It occupies folios 22a-25a.

Kinnim is considered to be one of the most difficult tractates in the whole Talmud, largely because the mishnayot involve rather elaborate counting methods and practices. These resemble certain forms of counting found in discrete mathematics and, appropriately, make use of the pigeonhole principle. Furthermore, the form of expression in Kinnim is particularly terse, even for the Mishna. This has resulted in a number of commentaries, many of them having very different explanations of the whole tractate. However, it is only the last few mishnayot of the last chapter that have caused the most difficulties.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Kinnim


text: User talk:68.190.152.106

title: User talk:68.190.152.106


text:
Henry Carey, 1st Baron Hunsdon

Henry Carey, 1st Baron Hunsdon, (4 March 1526 – 23 July 1596), was an English nobleman and courtier. He was the patron of the Lord Chamberlain's Men, William Shakespeare's playing company. The son of Mary Boleyn, he was a cousin of Elizabeth I.

Early life
Henry Carey was the second child of William Carey and Mary Boleyn, who was the sister of Anne Boleyn, the second wife and Queen of Henry VIII. Carey and his elder sister Catherine came under the wardship of their maternal aunt Anne Boleyn, who was engaged to Henry VIII at the time. The children still had active contact with their mother, who remained on good terms with her sister, until Mary's secret elopement with a soldier, William Stafford (later Lord of Chebsey) in 1535.

Anne Boleyn acted as her nephew's patron and provided him with an excellent education in a prestigious Cistercian monastery. He was also tutored at some point by the French poet Nicholas Bourbon, whose life had been saved from the French Inquisition after Queen Anne Boleyn’s intervention.

Henry's royal aunt was beheaded in May 1536, when he was ten years old. His mother died seven years later in 1543 on her estate in Essex. On 21 May 1545 he married Anne Morgan, daughter of Sir Thomas Morgan, of Arkestone, Herefordshire, and Anne Elizabeth Whitney.

Royal appointments
Carey served twice as Member of Parliament, representing Buckingham during 1547–1550—entering when he was 21—and 1554–1555. He was knighted in November 1558 and created Baron by his first cousin Elizabeth I of England on 13 January 1559. His sister, Catherine, was one of Elizabeth's favourite ladies-in-waiting and the Queen was very generous to her Boleyn relatives. His Baronial estate consisted of the manors of Hunsdon and Eastwick, Hertfordshire and possessions in Kent. Hunsdon had previously belonged to Elizabeth's predecessor Mary I. He was also granted an annual pension of £400. On 31 October 1560 he was appointed master of the queen's hawks with a salary of £40 a year. On 20 April 1561, Henry also became a Knight of the Garter.

Elizabeth appointed Carey Captain of the Gentlemen Pensioners in 1564, a position making him effectively her personal bodyguard for four years. He accompanied her to Cambridge University in 1564, for which he was awarded an MA. On 25 August 1568, Henry was appointed Governor of Berwick-upon-Tweed, Northumberland.

Northern Rebellion
The year 1569 was the beginning of the Rising of the North (November 1569 - February 1570), a major uprising instigated by Thomas Howard, 4th Duke of Norfolk, Charles Neville, 6th Earl of Westmorland and Thomas Percy, 7th Earl of Northumberland. The rebellion was expecting the support of the Roman Catholic Pope Pius V.

Henry was appointed Lieutenant General of the forces loyal to the Queen. His February victory over Sir Leonard Dacre was instrumental in crushing the rebellion. Nearly three thousand rebels ambushed Henry Carey's party of half that size, but Carey was nonetheless victorious in fending off the assault. A number of the rebels crossed the border to Scotland but were there targeted by the forces of the Scottish Regent. Henry could still appreciate the courage of Dacre's soldiers. In his letter to the Queen detailing the victory, he made mention of the rebel charge "the bravest charge that ever I saw!". He was rewarded with a personal note of thanks from Queen Elizabeth I that read in part. .

""I doubt much, my Harry, whether that the victory were given me, more joyed me, or that you were by God appointed the instrument of my glory; and I assure you that for my country's good, the first must suffice, but for my heart's contention the second pleased me. . you have done much for honour. . Your loving kinswoman, Elizabeth R.""

The victorious Henry was appointed Warden of the Eastern March and represented the Queen in signing a treaty with the Regent on 23 October 1571. On 31 July 1574 Henry became Keeper of Somerset House, the property of the Queen before ascending the throne. He was then named a Privy Counsellor in 1577. On 16 January 1581, Henry was appointed Captain-General of the forces responsible for the safety of English borders. He was appointed Lord Chamberlain of the Household in July 1585 and would hold this position until his death. This did not prevent Elizabeth from appointing him Lord Chamberlain Lieutenant, Principal Captain and Governor of the army "for the defence and surety of our own Royal Person". The appointment occurred on 20 July 1588 in Tilbury.

Henry also served as Chief Justice in Eyre, south of the River Trent between 1589 and his death. He was Joined Commissioner of the Office Earl Marshal and High Steward of Ipswich and Doncaster. He served as Chief Justice of the Royal Forces between 20 December 1591 and his death. On 2 March 1592 Henry was appointed High Steward of Oxford for life.

Affair with Emilia Lanier
Beginning in 1587, Carey began an affair with Emilia Lanier (1569-1645), who was the daughter of a Venetian-born court musician, and she may have been covertly Jewish. Carey, 45 years older than Lanier, was Elizabeth's Lord Chamberlain at the time of their affair and a patron of the arts and theatre (he was the patron of Shakespeare's theatre company, known as the Lord Chamberlain's Men, but not until two years after their affair was over).

Records indicate that Carey gave her a pension of £40 a year. Lanier apparently enjoyed her time as Carey's mistress. An entry from Forman's diary reads "[Lanier] hath bin married 4 years/ The old Lord Chamberlain kept her longue She was maintained in great pomp... she hath 40£ a yere & was welthy to him that married her in monie & Jewells". In 1592, when she was 23, Lanier became pregnant with Carey's child. Carey paid her off with a sum of money and then married her off to her first cousin once removed, Alfonso Lanier, a Queen's musician. Church records show the two were married in St. Botolph's church, Aldgate, on 18 October 1592. Lanier gave birth to Carey's son, Henry, in 1593 (presumably named after his father).

Death
Henry Carey died at Somerset House, Strand on 23 July 1596 and was buried on 12 August 1596 at Westminster Abbey. On his deathbed his cousin Elizabeth I offered to create him Earl of Wiltshire; however, he refused, saying: Madam, as you did not count me worthy of this honour in life, then I shall account myself not worthy of it in death.

Two of his sons, George, and John, successively followed him as Baron Hunsdon.

Relation to Henry VIII
Henry Carey's mother, Mary Boleyn, was mistress to King Henry VIII from 1520. The exact dates when the affair started and ended are unknown, although it is believed to have ended by the time Henry Carey was born on 4 March 1526.

Contemporary rumours stated that Henry was an illegitimate child of Henry VIII. Some 10 years after the child was born, John Hales, vicar of Isleworth, remarked that he had met a "young Master Carey," whom some monks believed to be the king's son. However, as Eric Ives has pointed out, the vicar was hostile towards the Boleyn family and may just have been causing trouble. The idea that Carey was Henry VIII's secret son has inspired modern historical fiction, such as the novel The Other Boleyn Girl. Alison Weir in her biography of Mary Boleyn concluded that the preponderance of evidence points to Henry Carey's sister, Catherine Carey, as being the only offspring of Mary's relations with Henry VIII.

Issue
Henry Carey and Anne Morgan's marriage resulted in the birth of thirteen children.
 * Sir George Carey, 2nd Baron Hunsdon (1547 – 8 September 1603). He was married on 29 December 1574 to Elizabeth Spencer, daughter of Sir John Spencer, Member of Parliament representing Northamptonshire, and Katherine Kitson.
 * Michael Carey (1550 - 1581)
 * Catherine Carey (c. 1550 – 25 February 1603). She was wife to Charles Howard, 1st Earl of Nottingham.
 * Sir John Carey, 3rd Baron Hunsdon (c. 1551 - April 1617). He was married on 20 December 1576 to Mary Hyde, daughter of Leonard Hyde of Throcking, Hertfordshire. They were parents of Henry Carey, 1st Earl of Dover.
 * William Carey (1552 - 1552)
 * William Carey (1 July 1553 - 1593)
 * Thomas Carey. (1555-1556) Died in infancy.
 * Thomas Carey. (11 October 1556) Presumably named after deceased brother. Still active in 1587.
 * Sir Edmund Carey (c. 1558 – 1637). He was married three times. First to Mary Crocker, second to Elizabeth Neville and third to Judith Humphrey. He was father to a younger Sir Robert Carey but it is not certain which wife gave birth to him.
 * Robert Carey, 1st Earl of Monmouth (1560 – 12 April 1639). He was married on 20 August 1593 to Elizabeth Trevannion, daughter of Sir Hugh Trevannion and Sybilla Morgan. They were parents to Henry Carey, 2nd Earl of Monmouth.
 * Henry Carey (? - 1599). MP for Berwick and Buckingham.
 * Philadelphia Carey (December 1563 - 1629), who married to Thomas Scrope, 10th Baron Scrope and was mother to Emanuel Scrope, 1st Earl of Sunderland.
 * Margaret Carey (30 November 1564 - 30 November 1605). She was married to Sir Edward Hoby, son of Thomas Hoby and Elizabeth Cooke

In addition, Henry had several illegitimate children, including Valentine Carey, who became a clergyman, ultimately Bishop of Exeter.

title: Henry Carey, 1st Baron Hunsdon


text:
Steinbock (disambiguation)

Steinbock or Alpine ibex is a species of wild goat living in the Alps.

Steinbock also may also refer to:
 * Operation Steinbock, a 1944 Luftwaffe bombing raid against southern England
 * Steinbock (icebreaker), a river icebreaker of the Wasser und Schifffahrtsamt

People with the surname

 * Anthony Steinbock, American philosopher
 * Bonnie Steinbock, American philosopher
 * Eberhard Steinböck (fl. 1882–1912), Austrian Olympic sport shooter
 * John Thomas Steinbock (1937-2010), American Roman Catholic Bishop of Fresno
 * Otto Steinböck (1893–1969), Austrian zoologist

Fictional

 * Wenceslas Steinbock, a character in Cousin Bette

title: Steinbock (disambiguation)


text:
User talk:Knigel

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title: User talk:Knigel


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Franz Stangl

Franz Paul Stangl (26 March 1908 – 28 June 1971) was an Austrian police officer and commandant of the Nazi extermination camps Sobibor and Treblinka in World War II.

Stangl, an employee of the T-4 Euthanasia Program and an SS commander in Nazi Germany, became commandant of the camps during the Operation Reinhard phase of the Holocaust. After the war he fled to Brazil for 16 years. In those 16 years he worked for Volkswagen do Brasil before he was arrested in 1967, extradited to West Germany, and tried there for the mass murder of one million people. In 1970, he was found guilty and sentenced to the maximum penalty, life imprisonment. He died of heart failure six months later.

Early life and Nazi affiliations
Stangl was born in 1908 in Altmünster, located in the Salzkammergut region of Austria. He was the son of a night watchman and had such an emotionally distressing relationship with his father that he was deeply frightened by and hated the sight of the elder Stangl's Habsburg Dragoons uniform. Stangl claimed his father had died of malnutrition in 1916. To help support his family, Franz learned to play the zither and earned money giving zither lessons. Stangl completed his public schooling in 1923.

In his teens, he secured an apprenticeship as a weaver, qualifying as a master weaver in 1927. Concerned that this trade offered few opportunities for advancement – and having observed the poor health of his co-workers – Stangl sought a new career. He moved to Innsbruck in 1930 and applied for an appointment in the Austrian federal police. Stangl later suggested that he liked the security and cleanliness that the police uniforms represented to him. He was accepted in early 1931 and trained for two years at the federal police academy in Linz.

Stangl became a member of the Austrian Nazi Party in 1931 when it was an illegal association for an Austrian police officer at that time. After the war he denied having been a Nazi since 1931 and claimed that he had enrolled as member of the party only to avoid arrest following the Anschluss of Austria into Nazi Germany in May 1938. Records suggest that Stangl contributed to a Nazi aid fund but he disavowed knowing about the intended party purpose of the fund. Stangl had Nazi Party number 6,370,447 and SS number 296,569.

In 1935, Stangl was accepted into the Kriminalpolizei as a detective in the Austrian town of Wels. After Austria's Anschluss, Stangl was assigned to the Schutzpolizei (which was taken over by the Gestapo) in Linz, where he was posted to the Jewish Bureau (Judenreferat). Stangl joined the SS in May 1938. He ultimately reached the rank of SS-Hauptsturmführer (Captain).

T-4 Euthanasia program, 1940 – March 1943
After the onset of World War II, in early 1940, Stangl was instructed to report for work at the Public Service Foundation for Institutional Care (Gemeinnützige Stiftung für Anstaltspflege), a front organization of the T-4 Euthanasia Program. Stangl purposely solicited for a job in the newly created T-4 program in order to escape difficulties with his boss in the Linz Gestapo. He travelled to the RSHA in Berlin, where he was received by Paul Werner, who offered Stangl a job as supervisor in charge of security at a T-4 facility, and in the language commonly used during recruitment, described Action T4 as a "humanitarian" effort that was "essential, legal, and secret". Next Stangl met with Viktor Brack, who offered him a choice of work between Hartheim and Sonnenstein killing centres; Stangl picked Hartheim, which was near Linz.

Through a direct order from Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler issued in November 1940, Stangl became the deputy office manager (Police Superintendent) of the T-4 Euthanasia Program at Hartheim Euthanasia Centre, and in late summer 1941 at Bernburg Euthanasia Centre, where people with mental and physical disabilities, as well as political prisoners, were sent to be killed.

At Hartheim, Stangl served under Christian Wirth as an assistant supervisor in charge of security. When Wirth was succeeded by Franz Reichleitner, Stangl stayed on as Reichleitner's deputy. During his brief posting to Bernburg Euthanasia Centre Stangl reorganized the office at that T-4 facility. In March 1942, Stangl was given a choice to either return to the Linz Gestapo or be transferred to Lublin for work in Operation Reinhard. Stangl accepted the posting to Lublin in the General Government, where he would manage Operation Reinhard under Odilo Globočnik.

Sobibor, April – August 1942
Stangl was appointed by Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler to be the first commandant of Sobibor extermination camp. Stangl was Sobibor's commandant from 28 April until the end of August 1942, at the rank of SS-Obersturmführer. He claimed that Odilo Globočnik had initially suggested that Sobibor was merely a supply camp for the army and that the true nature of the camp became known to him only when he himself discovered a gas chamber hidden in the woods. Globočnik told him that if the Jews "were not working hard enough" he was fully permitted to kill them and that Globočnik would send "new ones".

Stangl studied the camp operations and management of Bełżec, which had commenced extermination activity. He then accelerated the completion of Sobibor. Around that time Stangl also had further dealings with Wirth, who was running extermination camps at Bełżec and Chelmno. Between 16 and 18 May 1942, Sobibor became fully operational. However, Stangl quickly realized that the extermination process was being encumbered by constant turnover among its prisoner labor force. He ended arbitrary culling of "work Jews" and established semi-permanent work teams, each overseen by a kapo. In the three months before Stangl was transferred to Treblinka, Yitzak Arad estimates that approximately 90,000 Jews were killed at Sobibor.

Stangl avoided interacting with his victims, and he was rarely seen except when he greeted arriving prisoner transports. On these occasions he stood out because of the all-white linen riding coat he would wear, an affectation which earned him the nickname "White Death". Prisoners who did interact with him regarded him as one of the "moderates" among the camp staff. He was only ever accused of a single act of hands-on violence, and on one occasion, he convened a meeting to address what he regarded as Kurt Bolender's "bullying" of the Sonderkommando prisoners working in the extermination area. Stangl took an interest in one prisoner, Shlomo Szmajzner, who was forced to make gold jewelry for the SS officers. After the war, Szmajzner recalled Stangl as an arrogant man who stood out for "his obvious pleasure in his work and his situation. None of the others – although they were, in different ways, so much worse than he – showed this to such an extent. He had this perpetual smile on his face."

Around 100,000 Jews are believed to have been killed there while Stangl was the administrator until the furnaces broke down in October, by which time Stangl had left. Stangl was succeeded as Sobibor commandant by his Hartheim Euthanasia Center colleague, Franz Reichleitner.

Erich Bauer later remarked: "I estimate that the number of Jews gassed at Sobibor was about 350,000. In the canteen at Sobibor I once overheard a conversation between Karl Frenzel, Franz Stangl and Gustav Wagner. They were discussing the number of victims in the extermination camps of Belzec, Treblinka and Sobibor and expressed their regret that Sobibor 'came last' in the competition."

Also according to Bauer, Stangl participated in gang rapes of female prisoners prior to killing them: "I was blamed for being responsible for the death of the Jewish girls Ruth and Gisela, who lived in the so-called forester house. As it is known, these two girls lived in the forester house, and they were visited frequently by the SS men. Orgies were conducted there.  They were attended by [Kurt] Bolender, [Hubert] Gomerski, Karl Ludwig, Franz Stangl, Gustav Wagner, and Steubel.  I lived in the room above them and due to these celebrations could not fall asleep after coming back from a journey...."

Treblinka, September 1942 – August 1943
On 28 August 1942, Odilo Globočnik ordered Stangl to become Kommandant at the newly opened but disorganized death camp, Treblinka, then under the incompetent command of Irmfried Eberl. Globočnik trusted that Stangl could restore order at Treblinka, since Stangl had a reputation as a highly competent administrator and people manager with an excellent grasp of detail.

Stangl assumed command of Treblinka on 1 September 1942. Stangl wanted his camp to look attractive, so he ordered the paths paved and flowers planted along the sides of Seidel Street, near camp headquarters and SS living quarters. Despite being directly responsible for the camp's operations, Stangl said he limited his contact with Jewish prisoners as much as possible. Stangl rarely intervened with unusually cruel acts (other than gassing) perpetrated by his subordinate officers at the camp. He usually wore a white uniform and carried a whip, which caused prisoners to nickname him the "White Death".

He claimed while in prison that his dedication had nothing to do with ideology or hatred of Jews. He said he matter-of-factly viewed the prisoners as material objects rather than people, including their extermination: "That was my profession. I enjoyed it. It fulfilled me. And yes, I was ambitious about that, I won't deny it." Stangl accepted and grew accustomed to the killings, perceiving prisoners not as humans but merely as "cargo" that must be destroyed. Stangl accepted the extermination of the Jews as a fact. At about this time, Stangl began drinking heavily. He is quoted as saying:

"To tell the truth, one did become used to it ... they were cargo. I think it started the day I first saw the Totenlager [extermination area] in Treblinka. I remember Wirth standing there, next to the pits full of black-blue corpses. It had nothing to do with humanity – it could not have. It was a mass — a mass of rotting flesh. Wirth said "What shall we do with this garbage?" I think unconsciously that started me thinking of them as cargo ... I rarely saw them as individuals. It was always a huge mass. I sometimes stood on the wall and saw them in the "tube" – they were naked, packed together, running, being driven with whips..."

In September 1942, Stangl supervised the building of new, larger gas chambers to augment the existing gas chambers. The new gas chambers became operational in early autumn 1942. It is believed that these death chambers were capable of killing 3,000 people in two hours, and 12,000 to 15,000 victims easily every day, with a maximum capacity of 22,000 deaths in 24 hours. According to Jankiel Wiernik: "When the new gas chambers were completed, the Hauptsturmführer [Stangl] came and remarked to the SS men who were with him: 'Finally the Jewish city is ready' (Endlich ist die Judenstadt fertig)".

Trieste, August 1943–1945
In August 1943, along with Globočnik, Stangl was transferred to Trieste, where he helped organize the campaign against Yugoslav partisans and local Jews. Due to illness, he returned to Vienna in early 1945.

Post-war escape, 1945–1961
At the end of the war, Stangl fled without concealing his name. He was detained by the United States Army in 1945 and was briefly imprisoned in Linz, Austria, in 1947, pending investigation. He was suspected of complicity in the T-4 euthanasia programme.

On 30 May 1948, he escaped to Italy with his colleague from Sobibor, SS sergeant Gustav Wagner. Austrian Roman Catholic Bishop Alois Hudal, a Nazi sympathizer, forced to resign by the Vatican in 1952, helped Stangl to escape through a "ratline", and he reached Syria using a Red Cross passport.

Stangl was joined by his wife and family, and lived in Syria for three years. In 1951, they moved to Brazil. After years in other jobs, he found work with the help of friends, at the Volkswagen do Brasil plant in São Bernardo do Campo, still using his own name.

Arrest, trial and death
Although Stangl's role in the mass murder of men, women and children was known to the Austrian authorities, a warrant for his arrest was not issued until 1961. Despite being registered under his real name at the Austrian consulate in São Paulo, it took another six years before he was tracked by Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal and arrested by Brazilian federal police on 28 February 1967. He never used an assumed name during his escape, and it is not clear why it took so long to apprehend him. After his extradition to West Germany by Brazilian authorities, he was tried for the deaths of around 1,000,000 people. He admitted to these killings but argued: "My conscience is clear. I was simply doing my duty..."

Stangl's attempt to justify his actions as non-criminal in the face of German law was quoted by Arad:

"What I had to do while I continued my efforts to get out was to limit my own actions to what I – in my own conscience – could answer for. At police training school they taught us that the definition of a crime must meet four requirements: there has to be a subject, an object, an action and intent. If any of these four elements is missing, then we are not dealing with a punishable offence ... I could apply this to my own situation – if the subject was the government, the "object" the Jews, and the action the gassing, I could tell myself that for me, the fourth element, "intent", (I called it free will) was missing."

Philosopher John Kekes discussed Stangl and the degree of his responsibility for war crimes in chapter 4 of his book The Roots of Evil. The Schwurgericht Düsseldorf court found Stangl guilty on 22 December 1970 and sentenced him to the maximum penalty, life imprisonment. While in prison, Stangl was interviewed extensively by Gitta Sereny for a study of him, published under the title Into That Darkness.

She wrote, quoting him:

""My conscience is clear about what I did, myself", he said, in the same stiffly spoken words he had used countless times at his trial, and in the past weeks, when we had always come back to this subject, over and over again. But this time I said nothing. He paused and waited, but the room remained silent. "I have never intentionally hurt anyone, myself," he said, with a different, less incisive emphasis, and waited again – for a long time. For the first time, in all these many days, I had given him no help. There was no more time. He gripped the table with both hands as if he was holding on to it. "But I was there", he said then, in a curiously dry and tired tone of resignation. These few sentences had taken almost half an hour to pronounce. "So yes," he said finally, very quietly, "in reality I share the guilt ... Because my guilt ... my guilt ... only now in these talks ... now that I have talked about it all for the first time..." He stopped."

In his prison interview with Sereny, she later wrote:

"Stangl had pronounced the words 'my guilt': but more than the words, the finality of it was in the sagging of his body, and on his face. After more than a minute he started again, a half-hearted attempt, in a dull voice. 'My guilt,' he said, 'is that I am still here. That is my guilt.'"

He died of heart failure 19 hours after the conclusion of that interview in a Düsseldorf prison on 28 June 1971.

title: Franz Stangl


text:
Colin Bibby

Colin Joseph Bibby (20 November 1948 – 7 August 2004) was a British ornithologist and conservationist.

Bibby was born in the Wirral, Cheshire, the son of a North Wales farmer. He was educated at Oundle School, Northamptonshire, and at St John's College, Cambridge, graduating in natural sciences. He gained his PhD for a classic study on the ecology and conservation of Dartford warblers.

Bibby was a research staff member for the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds from 1971 to 1986, and the head of Conservation Science from 1986 to 1991. In 1991, he moved to BirdLife International, where he led their research team and a major research program, with projects in over 70 countries. In 2001 he became a self-employed environmental consultant. He was also a member of the Rare Breeding Birds Panel, and the founding editor of the British Trust for Ornithology journal Ringing and Migration.

His major contributions were in the development of quantitative approaches to the study of birds for research leading to conservation. He was also a frequent contributor to British Birds magazine.

In 1994, he was awarded the Dr A.H. Heineken Prize for Environmental Sciences for his work with BirdLife International, and in June 2004, he received the RSPB Medal in recognition of his contribution to ornithology.

He learned that he had an incurable cancer in March 2004 and, on 7 August 2004 at the age of 55, died in his sleep. He was survived by his wife, Ruth, and three sons.

Memorials
A special supplement published with Bird Conservation International (Vol 18 No 3, September 2008) was dedicated to Bibby. In it, Mike Rands, BirdLife's Chief Executive, wrote:

"Colin Bibby was a truly remarkable man. He had a life-long interest in almost all things biological, and applied scientific thinking and rigour to a vast array of situations, be they the study of a particular conservation problem, or matters concerning the management of an organisation. [He] leaves a great legacy of knowledge and ideas, and this publication pays tribute to his innovative approach to the application of ornithology to conservation."

In 2017 a stained-glass painting of a Dartford Warbler, in the style of Bibby's favourite artist, Eric Ennion, was added to a window at St Michael and All Angels Church, Caldecote, Cambridgeshire in Bibby's honour. Bibby had spent the months after his fatal diagnosis fundraising for the church windows' restoration. A service of dedication for the memorial painting, on 16 July 2017, led by the Archdeacon of Cambridge, Alex Hughes, was attended by over 100 people.

Selected publications

 * (pbk reprint of 1992 1st edition);
 * (pbk reprint of 1992 1st edition);

title: Colin Bibby


text:
Nap Rucker

George Napoleon "Nap" Rucker (September 30, 1884 – December 19, 1970) was an American professional baseball pitcher and politician from Georgia. Rucker was a left-handed pitcher in Major League Baseball for the Brooklyn Superbas/Dodgers/Robins. Over his 10 seasons, Rucker lead the league in shutouts, complete games, and innings pitched throughout his career. On September 5, 1908, Rucker became the first left-handed pitcher to throw a no-hitter in Dodger history.

Early years
Rucker was born in Crabapple, Georgia, to parents Sarah Hembree and John Rucker, a Confederate veteran. He dropped out of school and became an apprentice printer. Inspired by a headline he worked on entitled "$10,000 For Pitching a Baseball", Rucker pursued a minor league career.

Minor league
In 1904. Rucker played with the Atlanta Crackers in the Southern Association. He then spent the following two years playing for the Augusta Tourists in the South Atlantic League and compiled a 40–20 win–loss record during that span. Rucker also roomed with Ty Cobb during his time with the Tourists.

Major league (1907–1916)
Rucker played for the Brooklyn Superbas for his entire major league career. Rucker threw a no-hitter against the Boston Doves on September 5, 1908. He led the National League in complete games (27), innings pitched (320.1), and shutouts (6) in 1910. His best year was 1911, when he won 22 games for the Dodgers. He holds the Brooklyn Dodgers record for the most shutouts in the National League (38); most strikeouts (16) in a regulation nine-inning game, and the most 1-0 shutouts (3) in a 154-game season. He became strictly a knuckleball pitcher when his speed declined.

MLB Hall of Fame
In 1936, Rucker became eligible for the MLB Hall of Fame. As a player who received more than 5.0% of votes cast, Rucker remained eligible for induction by the Baseball Writers' Association of America until 1946, when his time on the ballot expired after 10 unsuccessful appearances. His highest percentage of votes earned came in his final year on the ballot, receiving 6.4% of the vote in 1946.

Following his unsuccessful nominations, Yankees Hall of Fame manager, Casey Stengel, said about Rucker, "If it hadn't been for Nap, I reckon I wouldn't be manager of the Yankees now. I wouldn't have even stayed in baseball."

Later life: Mayor of Roswell
Rucker was born in Crabapple, Georgia. After his baseball career, Rucker went on to a successful business career including investing in a local bank and ownership of a plantation, several cotton farms, a wheat mill. He also served as mayor of Roswell from 1935 to 1936. After serving as mayor. Rucker was responsible for creating Roswell's first supply of running water and served as the city's water commissioner for many years. Rucker was inducted into the Georgia Sports Hall of Fame in 1967. Rucker died in Alpharetta, Georgia, in 1970 and was interred in the Roswell Presbyterian Church Cemetery in Roswell, Georgia.

Personal life
His nephew Johnny Rucker played baseball for the New York Giants.

title: Nap Rucker


text:
User talk:BlueNight

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia! Hope you like it here, and stick around.

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Hi, welcome again. I'm not sure if there's a meetup being planned; I think the best place to ask something like that would be Village pump. Hope to see you around, [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 00:26, 2004 Aug 11 (UTC)

P.S. Please sign your posts!

Linking room
Actually the theme is fairly frequent both in the literature of Fantasy and the literature of Science fiction. In addition to the examples I wrote down, I remember dozens of short stories and novels around the theme, and even more which have such rooms in the "background". Harry Harrison published an anthology filled with SF stories around this (it is in one of the moving boxes which I have not yet opened) and Lloyd Biggle JR also had several SF stories (in his Jan Darzek series mostly) with rooms full of matter transmitter portals. AlainV 08:06, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Transformation plot devices
I just added some notes to Talk:Transformation Stories Archive - let me know what you think. --Jim Henry 21:05, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hello, I see that you are interested in transformation. If you want, could you help the article Transformation fiction? Bye for now, --ShaunMacPherson 13:09, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Furry lifestyler
Thanks for the species dysmorphia paragraph; it's frankly a relief to see someone adding some sensible content for a change... I've toned your comments down just a little bit, since (for example) "Species Dysmorphic Disorder" has no Google hits at all (and I've never personally seen that precise term used), but nevertheless it was a useful contribution. =:) Loganberry | Talk 02:08, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Logic
hey! You answered a question I had under the Logic talk page and we both were told to take the conversation elsewhere... I figured this would do: I think we both agree that Logic can't be proven or disproven with itself. Any other system used to justify it would be illogical by definition (hehe), but also, any other system would suffer from the same epistemic circularity that logic does. So (assuming that circularity diffuses any statement), no statements of logic, or any other induction/justifaction system, can be used credibly. i.e. we can't know anything. I'm sorry to pester you, but I haven't found any discussion of this issue anywhere else...

I've got a cousin attending University of New Mexico down by you! How do you like it? --Heyitspeter 22:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

 * UNM is a nice place. I enjoy the neighborhood.
 * As to logic: Yeah, that wasn't quite the place to discuss it.
 * I firmly believe that logic is one of three fundamentals of the universe, the other two being causality and existence, and everything that we know is a mixture of these. See my blog on the topic, Triessentialism.  Logic is irreducible; the word "prove" described a concept peculiar to logic (and fields which rely upon it, such as math and law).  It is as ludicrous to talk about proving something without logic as it is to talk about color in the dark.
 * However, you made an interesting statement: "assuming that circularity diffuses any statement"
 * Circularity doesn't diffuse anything, it just doesn't imply anything. For example, if I said "1+1=2, therefore 2=1+1", I haven't proven anything, ie, I haven't derived another statement that is substantively different from the first.  However, "1+1=2, therefore 1+1+1=1+2" is not circular, it is derivative.
 * Here's another twist of circularity. You said that because using logic to prove logic is circular, we cannot know anything.  Did you use logic to come up with that?
 * One more for the road: "We cannot know anything."  To assume that this sentence is true implies that you know this sentence, and therefore you know something, and therefore this statement is false.  However, you can say what Descartes said:  "I doubt, therefore I think.  I think, therefore I am."

--BlueNight 04:50, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

 * The circularity of 'proving' and 'disproving' (i.e. justifying, falsifying, etc.) logic using logic is what makes logic useless. I just meant that logic can't be proven or disproven within itself (and, it seems to me, without itself), and this makes it an untestable hypothesis. So every logic statement has the assumption of it's own functionality, and that functionality premise will always be an assumption, because logic statements cannot be made without it.

 * I admit it's rediculous to say "we can't know anything", and I don't mean to give that statement a special standing, but to give logical statements a special priority seems just as crazy, you know?

 * Let me know if you'd rather not talk about this, or if you'd rather not talk on this page, okay? Maybe on your blog?

 * p.s. How do I indent so it looks like I'm responding to you?--Heyitspeter 22:08, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Use a colon before each paragraph, like I have done here. I took the liberty of adding two colons (double-indent) to your response so it's clear you were responding to my response.  Also, I'm okay with discussing this here.  I enjoy discussions like this.

 * You're a perceptive person, and you've caught on to one of the central paradoxes of philosophy: namely, is philosophy itself valid?

 * What is logic useless for? (Any time you say useful or useless, a 'for something' is implied, unless you refer to the negative emotional identity "useless" as in broken, hopeless, or failed.)  (Feel free to comment on my blog posts.)

 * If you mean useless in general, useless for anything, that is patently false. The very existence of logic circuits, computer programming, and the Internet shows that logic can be used for some things.  Unless you are willing to doubt the recognition of your ability to observe (which is something few philosophers are willing to do as a way of life), the functionality is obvious.

 * If you mean that logic is useless for self-verification, then I agree. It is untestable from the outside.  It is only testable from within.  However, since it is functional in conjunction with the physical world, it is as real as the physical world.

 * In physics, people run into a similar situation. We can only observe things that in some way affect other things physically.  Light particles (photons) physically hit our optic receptors, causing a chemical / nervous reaction in our brain, causing us to see.  The nerves in our skin respond to the pressure of electromagnetic fields of the atoms that make up objects, giving us a sense of touch.  We cannot directly perceive (without physical senses) the everyday world of material objects, of matter and energy, because we are made of the same stuff.  Our tools are made of the same stuff.  Our measuring sticks are made of the same stuff.

 * We can't "get outside" of matter and energy to perceive directly, any more than we can "get outside" of logic to verify directly. Thus, it is as much a fallacy to say "thus we cannot know anything" as it is to say "thus nothing is real."  If a positive "we can know" is impossible, so is a negative "we cannot know."  We can only say that we know nothing outside of what we know, and cannot observe what cannot be observed.

 * As for giving logic and rationality a special priority: since there is no substitute for true and false, when people want the truth, logic (no matter how disguised by layers of emotions, manners of speech, or poor phrasing) is the only way to get it. Even if it is crazy, its the only thing we have.

 * What it comes down to for me is that logic is the structure and interaction of items within a context. Without a context within which to work, logic can't do anything, and is indeed useless.  The two words context and consistency are the keys to logic.

 * There is an analogous situation with emotions, and value judgements, but I won't get into it here. --BlueNight 05:23, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I meant useless in the "broken, hopeless, failed sense", and the "self-verification" sense (it seems to me that if you can't verify something then you can't rely on it). As for the latter, logic is definitely untestable from the outside, but from within it seems to be untestable as well, since any verification or dismissal of logic within itself is circular, and so doesn't imply anything. Of course that doesn't mean the conclusions of those arguments are true or false, but any conclusion wouldn't be supported logically. As for the useless in the "for something" sense, that wasn't what I was thinking at the time; but it does seems that if logic can't be deemed worthwhile/beneficial/effective within or without itself, then at the very least we don't know if it can be used "for something". True, it's worked for computers. Could that just be luck? This is stuff I have to think a about.

 * The "within context" thing is troublesome because that makes logic by definition subjective. That definitely doesn't make it worthless, but it makes the 'truth' thing harder to buy. If some set is true subjectively then it's essentially just a bunch of premises that you can either accept or reject, but your reasons for doing so are probably arbitrary, or at least can't be conveyed effectively to another subjective consciousness. I'm not really getting at everything in what you've said and I still have troublesome questions and such, but for now I'm really really really tired and I need to sleep. I'm having a lot of trouble holding together coherent thoughts. I hope I've been clear at all so far... :/--Heyitspeter 11:00, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Hey so I've slept and now I'm going to try again a little! I thought about the logic-computers thing. That's all fine, and it helps computers do tasks and such. But would it help a computer gain some transcendant knowledge? I would argue no. When you say logic works "within context", I think what you mean is, "when a set of premises are treated as givens" (i.e. when the basis of the logic system is assumptions). If there are two different logic systems, and both are operating entirely off of assumptions, then neither one has priority over the other, and neither one's conclusions can be expected to be 'true' in any sense.

 * The most credit I can give logic might be that it helps make a system of beliefs more noncontradictory, and maybe helps carry out your assumptions to their logical conclusions. But as for "shedding light" or "reaching truth", I don't see how that could happen...

 * Thoughts?--Heyitspeter 01:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

 * There really is nothing else to say. Logic is all about rationality and truth, but logic itself carries no meaning.  Meaning is an emotion-thing, not a logic-thing.  Significance cannot be found inherently in logic, just as it cannot be found in physical objects.  The three, emotional, logical, and physical, are separate items, though they co-exist in the same objects.  Structure (logic) and significance (emotion) are as different as water and quadratic equations.  I hope you find a better answer regarding significance. --BlueNight (talk) 07:32, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

HPV vaccine
BlueNight, I'd be interested in your comments/answer to [this question. Thanks! [[User:NCdave|NCdave]] 14:24, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Linking room
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Nomination of Gib (video gaming) for deletion
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title: User talk:BlueNight


text:
User:Mr.ちゅらさん

This is the same as Nobue Matsubara, Ryoko Hirosue The Great Sasuke, President Mandela at the birthday on July 18.Japanese Osaka City residence.

 * taste : BCL, the Internet, the appreciation (Main of sport, variety) of the television program specially succeeded in collecting the verification cards of the Japanese domestic medium wave commercial broadcasting station with BCL.
 * Favorite professional baseball team : Hanshin Tigers
 * Favorite Japan Professional Football League team : Cerezo Osaka

&

title: User:Mr.ちゅらさん


text:
Mike Smith (actor)

Michael "Mike" Smith (born August 27, 1972) is a Canadian actor, screenwriter, comedian and musician. He is best known for his portrayal of Bubbles and co-writer of the cult classic television program, films and stage production Trailer Park Boys. He was also the guitarist for the Canadian rock band Sandbox. Smith earned a degree in English from St. Francis Xavier University in Antigonish, Nova Scotia.

Musical interest
Smith showed early signs of musical talent, after learning to play the guitar at age six. Before becoming involved in Trailer Park Boys, he was a guitarist in the rock band Sandbox, and signed a record deal with EMI in Canada, and Nettwerk in the United States. Sandbox released two albums with EMI and Nettwerk, entitled Bionic and A Murder in the Glee Club. Sandbox was nominated for a Juno Award, East Coast Music Awards, and a CASBY Award.

Smith has worked on such films as The Weight of Water as a sound mixer, and Serendipity as a cableman.

Later, Smith performed as part of Bubbles & the Shit Rockers, a band that also featured founding Rush guitarist Alex Lifeson and Tom Wilson for the original song "Liquor & Whores" featured on Trailer Park Boys: The Movie Soundtrack. A Trailer Park Boys episode also features Smith's character Bubbles playing the 1977 Rush track "Closer to the Heart" with Alex Lifeson.

Smith has performed "Liquor & Whores" with Guns N' Roses on multiple occasions on their Chinese Democracy Tour, in 2006, 2010 and 2011.

Smith has also recorded with Emm Gryner in "Get Brave" released in 2010.

Acting career
Smith had been a long-time friend of Trailer Park Boys director Mike Clattenburg, and starred in "Cart Boy" with Robb Wells (who plays Ricky) and John Paul Tremblay (who plays Julian) in 1995.

Smith was "messing" around on the set one day and slipped into his Cart Boy character from the short "The Cart Boy". Clattenburg apparently realized the depth this character held, and the Cart Boy, now known as Bubbles, was written into the show. Bubbles was never intended to be a main character, but the more outrageously he behaved, the more audiences loved him, developing him to become a breakout character. Bubbles then became one of the three main protagonists, having established that he knew Julian and Ricky from school back in the late 1970s to high school in the late '80s.

Smith made an appearance as Bubbles in Snow's 2002 music video Legal, but his swearing remained censored. He was also featured in Country Star George Canyon's video for "Drinkin Thinkin", which showed Bubbles going after his girlfriend. Mike and the rest of the Trailer park boys appeared in The Tragically Hip video, "The Darkest One". He has appeared in character as Bubbles at several Guns N' Roses 2006 Canadian tour dates and dates in Australia and Japan in 2007. Bubbles, along with Ricky and Julian, hosted the 2006 and the 2007 East Coast Music Awards, in Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island and Halifax, Nova Scotia respectively. In March 2008, Smith, along with three others, opened a sports bar in Halifax called "Bubba Ray's".

Smith also was involved in another bar, "Bubbles' Mansion", located in Downtown Halifax. The bar, partly owned by Smith, closed in March 2010 after four years of operation, a decision the management attributed to government hikes in the minimum wage and minimum drink prices.

In 2010, Smith reunited with many of his former Trailer Park Boys castmates in the new series The Drunk and On Drugs Happy Fun Time Hour. The 6-episode series centers on the idea that a powerful narcotic derived from local berries transforms the cast, leading them to believe they are the characters they're playing, including pirates, superheroes, a mafia family and drug dealers. Tremblay, Wells and Smith, who created and scripted the show, performed in many scenes opposite themselves. It was directed by sitcom veteran Ron Murphy.

He also performed a live version of "Closer to the Heart" with progressive rock band Rush.

On October 22, 2012, it was confirmed that Smith was to return to his role as Bubbles for a third feature length Trailer Park Boys film entitled "Don't Legalize It" which concluded filming in late April 2013. The film was released on April 18, 2014.

In the spring of 2013, Smith along with his Trailer Park Boys cohorts Wells and Tremblay started Swearnet, an internet-based television network that is entirely uncensored. The trio have also produced a film that is a fictional take on their website.

Personal life
In 2016, Smith was arrested in Los Angeles on suspicion of misdemeanor domestic battery. The alleged victim (who was not the person who called the police) released a statement in support of Smith, and the charges were dropped.

title: Mike Smith (actor)


text:
User:Auximines/ELO

 * albums - done stubs and covers for studio albums, need details
 * Electric Light Orchestra_(album)
 * more like a Move album?
 * first album, only one with RW
 * No Answer in USA
 * Electric Light Orchestra II
 * On The Third Day
 * Eldorado
 * the sound ELO was aiming at
 * ghastly cover
 * Face The Music
 * A New World Record
 * start of pop
 * Out of the Blue (album)
 * Bev sings!
 * peak of ELO pop
 * Discovery (Electric Light Orchestra album)
 * disco, Disco Very
 * Time (album)
 * Secret Messages
 * light fading
 * Balance of Power (Electric Light Orchestra album)
 * Zoom (album)
 * more JL solo
 * add further reviews
 * add live albums and compilations
 * improve Roy Wood page - currently only a stub
 * improve main article
 * own page for Bev Bevan

title: User:Auximines/ELO


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European water vole

The European water vole (Arvicola amphibius) or northern water vole, is a semi-aquatic rodent. It is often informally called the water rat, though it only superficially resembles a true rat. Water voles have rounder noses than rats, deep brown fur, chubby faces and short fuzzy ears; unlike rats their tails, paws and ears are covered with hair.

In the wild, on average, water voles only live about five months. Maximum longevity in captivity is two and a half years.

Appearance
Water voles reach 14 - 22 cm in length, plus a tail which is about half the length of the body. Weights reported for adults are variable. It is possible for large, optimal adults to weigh as much as 225 to 386 g However, these are peak weights. Elsewhere, the mean body mass has been reported as 60 to 140 g, although this figure includes immature water voles. The minimum weight to successfully breed as well as to survive winter is reportedly 112 g in females and 115 g in males. As a species the mean body mass is claimed as 140 g.

Overall, European water voles are a uniform dark brown colour, with slightly paler coloration on the underside. Their pelage is quite thick and they are furred over their entire body, including their tail, unlike rats. Their dark colour allows them to blend in well in the densely vegetated areas they inhabit.

Taxonomy
The binomial applied to the European water vole is Arvicola amphibius; it was formerly known by the junior synonym A. terrestris. The confusion stems from the fact that Linnaeus described two species of water vole on the same page of the same work. Those two forms are now universally considered the same species. It has been recognized as A. amphibius (Linnaeus, 1758) because the first source to unite the two forms, which Linnaeus had treated separately, into a single species chose A. amphibius as the valid name. The species is widely known by the synonym A. terrestris, which for many decades was treated as the valid name.

Some authorities consider the southwestern water vole (Arvicola sapidus) to be the same species, but it is now generally considered distinct.

Range
The European water vole (Arvicola amphibius) is found in most of Europe, Russia, West Asia and Kazakhstan.

Habitat
In Britain, water voles live in burrows excavated within the banks of rivers, ditches, ponds, and streams. Burrows are normally located adjacent to slow moving, calm water which they seem to prefer. They also live in reed beds where they will weave ball-shaped nests above ground if no suitable banks exist in which to burrow.

Water voles prefer lush riparian vegetation which provides important cover to conceal animals when they are above ground adjacent to the water body. Areas of heavily grazed and trampled riparian habitats are generally avoided. Water voles may be displaced by the introduction of riparian woodland and scrub as they prefer more open wetland habitats away from tree cover.

As well as frequenting typical lowland wetland habitats dominated by rank marginal aquatic vegetation, water voles are also just as at home in areas upland 'peatland' vegetation where they utilize suitable small ditches, rivers, and lochs surrounded by moorland up to 1,000 m asl (e.g., northern Scotland).

In Europe and Russia, they may venture into woods, fields, and gardens. They live under the snow during the winter.

Water voles are currently being reintroduced as a threatened species in Yorkshire, England. In the Massif Central area of France, however, farmers are campaigning for action to be taken against water voles, where plagues of these rodents are causing major damage to crops.

Diet
Water voles mainly eat grass and other vegetation near the water, but will also consume fruits, bulbs, twigs, buds, and roots when given the opportunity. In Europe, rich harvest periods can cause water vole "plagues" to take place, during which the voles eat ravenously, destroying entire fields of grass and leaving the fields full of burrows. Water voles in some parts of England have been shown to occasionally prey on frogs and tadpoles; it has been speculated that this is to make up for a protein deficiency in the voles' diet.

Food remains alone are not a reliable indicator of the presence of this species, as other smaller voles can also leave remains of large grasses and rushes.

Breeding
The mating period lasts from March into late autumn. The female vole's pregnancy lasts for approximately 21 days. Up to 8 baby voles can be born, each weighing around 10 g. The young voles open their eyes three days after their birth. They are half the size of a full grown water vole by the time they are weaned.

Behaviour
Water voles are expert swimmers and divers. They do not usually live in large groups. Adult water voles each have their own territory, which they mark with fecal latrines located either near the nest or burrow, or at favoured water's edge platforms where voles leave or enter the water. Latrines are known to be a good survey indicator of this species, and can be used to gauge abundance of animals. They also scent-mark by using a secretion from their bodies (a flank gland), although this is not normally detectable during a field survey. They may attack if their territory is invaded by another water vole.

Predation
As a large and common microtine rodent, the range of predators faced by the European water vole is extensive. However, many species of predator prefer other rodents, such as Microtus voles and wood mice, due to their greater numerical abundance. Wildcats, red foxes, most species of hawk (especially common buzzards), owl (especially the barn owl, genus Strix, and Eurasian eagle-owl) and falcon (in large numbers by the common kestrel) in their range are among their reported predators. A very large number are also taken by mustelids. Reportedly small Mustela weasels as well as European and introduced American mink may take the largest number of water voles of any predator due in part to aligning habitat preferences. The rarely checked invasive population of American mink has reportedly caused a decline of water voles in Britain.

United Kingdom
On 26 February 2008, the U.K. Government announced full legal protection for water voles would be introduced from 6 April 2008.

Water voles have recently returned to Lindow Common nature reserve in Cheshire, after many years of absence.

In 2015, People's Trust for Endangered Species launched a new project to try to coordinate conservation efforts for the water-vole in the U.K. The National Water-Vole Monitoring Programme (NWVMP) is the first ongoing monitoring scheme for this species in the U.K. and aims to bring together data from several hundred sites to allow the status of this animal to be assessed year-on-year. In September 2019, the Box Moor Trust re-introduced 177 water voles in to the River Bulbourne in Hemel Hempstead as part of a three-year plan.

Literary appearances
A water vole named "Ratty" is a leading character in the 1908 children's book The Wind in the Willows by Kenneth Grahame: the locality used in the book is believed to be Moor Copse in Berkshire, England and the character's name "Ratty" has become widely associated with the species and their riverbank habitat, as well as the misconception that they are a species of rat.

In the comic novel and film Cold Comfort Farm by Stella Gibbons, one of the characters, Urk, refers to the subject of his unrequited love, Elfine Starkadder, as his little water-vole. Throughout the story, Urk spends a lot of time talking to the water-voles on the farm.

C. S. Calverley a 19th-century writer of (among other things) light verse, in his poem "Shelter", beginning:

By the wide lake's margin I mark'd her lie— The wide, weird lake where the alders sigh—

Tells of an apparently shy, easily frightened young female by a lakeside, who in the last line of the poem, it is revealed that:

"For she was a water-rat."

The Rolling Stones song "Live With Me" includes the line "My best friend he shoots water rats and feeds them to his geese", referring to Keith Richards's habit of shooting water voles in the moat of his Redlands, West Wittering home.

title: European water vole


text:
User talk:Dubious Punk

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