text:
Talk:Effeminacy/Archive 1

What St. Thomas Aquinas says will also be added. There should be a wealth of Latin evidence for this subject also. WHEELER 15:24, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I object to the edit that made it a section. The word continues through history and has an effect. I point out the the educational influences of the word "Effeminacy" in Victorian England and 19th century America and now the section head destroys the continuity of the article. How come there are many references in English Literature to effeminacybecause maybe Its found in the Bible. What had the greatest effect on Western culture the Bible. Where is this word from The Bible. Where did the Bible pick it up from -The Greeks!!!!!! Who should define the word? This word doesn't exist in any Western culture but by the Greeks. Let the word and its meanings stand in context. There is no division of the word from its content and the heading does that.WHEELER 16:10, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

"Context" refers to more than you seem to think. Slrubenstein

Revisionism in the Church
Guess what word is missing from New Bibles:

NEW BIBLES Nestle-Aland Greek-English New Testament 26th edition l979 (Used as textbook in Roman Catholic Seminaries.)

1 Cor 6:9 “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, not idolaters, not adulterers, not sexual perverts, …will inherit the kingdom of God.”

The New American Bible with Nihil Obstat Stephen J. Hartdegen, O.F.M.,S.S.L.  Christian P. Ceroke, O. Carm., S.T.D. Imprimatur: Patrick Cardinal O’Boyle, D.D.  Archbishop of Washington   l987

1 Cor 6:9 “Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes not 				practicing homosexuals…will inherit the kingdom of heaven.”

The Orthodox Study Bible with Joseph Allen, Th. D.; Jack Norman Sparks, PH. D.; Theodore Stylianopoulos, Th. D.; Archbishop IAKOVOS, Metropolitan THEODOSIUS. 1993

1 Cor 6:9 “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be 			deceived. Neither fornicators, not idolaters, not adulterers, not homosexuals, nor sodomites, will inherit the kingdom of God.

OLD BIBLES The New American Catholic Edition The Holy Bible Imprimatur Francis Cardinal Spellman  l958

1 Cor 6:9 “Or do you not know that the unjust will not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor sodomites,…will possess the kingdom of God.”

The King James Bible

1 Cor 6.9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, not idolaters, not adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves  with mankind…shall inherit the kingdom of God.

This is an importance of an Encyclopaedia. So, information does not get lost. Nestle Aland is an prestigious work. It has an authority. It is used in many seminaries. Yet, where the Greek has five activities, the English only reads four.

Words are important. Lose the Word, one naturally loses the concept. It is important that this word disappears from modern culture. WHEELER 14:15, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * The passages against homosexuality are confuted at http://www.jeramyt.org/gay.html . It also deals with effeminacy. lysdexia 08:11, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Yes, I agree withyou -- it is important. It shows how language and culture change.  It shows how our culture is different from that of the Greeks.  To explain this, though, we need much more than sacattered quotes.   We need to explore the broader social and cultural context in which people used language this way, and how that social and cultural context have changed so the meaning (or usefulness or value) of the word has changed. Slrubenstein

 * Did it change of its own accord or did someone purposely drop it? Furthermore, shouldn't texts of the Bible be translated without fault?  Here is a clear example of political correctness creeping in.WHEELER 14:28, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * See Reformism and all the links to it. like evolutionary socialism.  Yes, the word hasn't changed its been completely dropped like a hot potato.  And NO, I am not into reformism and revisionism like some people are.WHEELER 14:31, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

How and why the term changed is an important question I am surte historians and others have studied. I agree with the spirit of your desire to see texts translated accurately. But perhaps you are unaware of debates over translation. I grant that in the case at hand the issue may be very simple. In many cases, however, it is not -- the correct translation of a term may change, as meanings of words change (for example, translate the Hebrew "atah" as "you" or as "thou?") Also, some words simply have no literal translation into another language. Finally, some grammatical constructions are difficult to trnslate. Most Bibles begin with "In the beginning" which is an absolutely incorrect translation, although what would be the correct translation is a matter of debate. And this has little to do with political correctness. Slrubenstein

The difference between you or thou is nothing significant. It is the difference between style of polite or common. Malakoi is very definite in its meaning and its connotation. This is the reason I placed many quotes. This is read by many people that can not just jump to their study and pull out a book and say ah-ah. This article gives plenty of examples of word context and usage so that people are aware of the historical context and they way people thought and used the word. Many Christians also use this encycopaedia, they would be greatly informed.WHEELER 00:27, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

MS Word
Whoever is the primary author of this article (User:WHEELER, I presume) badly needs to stop pasting from MS Word or whatever it is you're doing. I just cleaned up a bunch of "?" question mark characters in place of what should've been single or double-quote characters. This is really bad practice; please find a way to avoid this. :) - Korpios 16:49, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

POV
Looking at the article right now, it seems quite POV against effeminacy; I'm probably going to take a crack at revising it towards a more NPOV ideal. For one thing, there are many who view effeminacy as attractive. There's also the issue of including the current context with regards to gender issues, identity, roles, and transgenderism. - Korpios 16:49, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Actually... seeing as how effeminate is a redirect to gender role, the bulk of this article would actually make an interesting move/addition to prescriptions regarding gender roles, fleshing it out to more of a full-length article rather than a stub. It can then also redirect to gender role.  - Korpios 16:55, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

This is about the "Classical" meaning and Idea of effeminancy. Korpios This needs to remain because it is in Aritotle's list of vices in the book "Virtues and Vices". This is also a Christian teaching. both the Classical and Christian teaching of this is very different from where you are at. You do not have a classical background. In any other Classical sense, this would be in a Classical reference book. This is not about gender roles or any modern ideas. If you want to make your own article about how effeminacy is attractive place it as a paragraphy in the gender role article. But the content and meaning of this article is about VICE and the Classical meaning which is also has a Christian meaning. This article is not POV --it is nothing but direct quotes. Please read the Oxford Dictionary.WHEELER 18:37, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I work from a Library computer and all they have is MS Word. If you want to add a modern definition at the bottom of the article be my guest.  But the Classical and Christian meanings have to remain because classicists and christians will be using this definition also and they need to know the history of the word.WHEELER 21:56, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * How's a disambiguation page sound as a solution? That way we can make it crystal-clear what sort of sense the article intends, and still direct people to gender role who are looking for that particular sort of information.  We would move this article to Effeminacy (classical vice), with the disambig page linking to it; that way, it's crystal-clear. Korpios 23:59, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Redirect
I fixed the redirect from effeminate. The idea of merging the article is ludacris, it is no stub, but rather very nicely written and well supplied w citations. - Sam Spade 23:54, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Wow, are we even talking about the same prescriptions regarding gender roles stub here, Sam?

 * As for the redirect, that just makes things worse — there are many articles talking about effeminacy in the gender role sense which link to effeminacy and expect information about the gender role. This article, according to WHEELER, isn't intended to talk about gender roles, so this is highly misleading.  A disambiguation page at this point is a must.

 * - Korpios 00:04, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Disambiguation
I'm moving this page to Effeminacy (classical vice) and replacing this with a disambiguation page, so we can avoid all the messiness, redirects and otherwise. - Korpios 00:09, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The concept of effeminacy with regards to modern gender roles should get its own article at some point, so the disambiguation page can point to more than just gender role. I'll probably work up a stub before too long. - Korpios 00:21, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

B.S., its all the same thing! Splitting the article only doubles the problem, and you can't rename your troubles away. I dispute this false dicotomy. Sam [Spade] 00:25, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * WHEELER seems to dispute that it's a false dichotomy, and I'm inclined to agree in the sense he means. If he wants to track it as a classical vice, I'm fine with that, so long as it's not confused with the very straightforward, more modern sense of femininity applied to men.  (Besides, I'm not sure we could get him to go along with any plan that would require extensive reworking of the article.)  - Korpios 00:34, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I know what your saying, but I don't like it. I think we should make a grade-a "Effeminacy" article. That said, I'm not going to write it, and am certainly not going to have a hissy fit about the whole thing. Lets just have a wine cooler and watch "sex in the city", ok? ;) Sam [Spade] 04:16, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Ew, television? :)  If we can get a good article written on it in the non-classical-vice sense, we might then be able to merge it back with the classical-vice article.  But, that's a big "if"; gender role covers it adequately for now, and calling the classical-vice article a neutral article about a "gender role" just doesn't work.  I'm not even sure WHEELER is up for debate on this.  :/ - Korpios 17:55, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Lets not assume anything about each other for one thing, there are plenty of other people doing that already ;). Next, the best thing for the reader is to have a combined article on effeminacy. There is no "classical effeminacy" separate from modern effeminacy. That’s something invented on the spot to keep you and wheeler from having to discuss matters further ;). Effeminacy is effeminacy, then and now. It is poofs and swishers and boys who join the cheerleading squad instead of the football team. We all know what the word means, for gosh sakes! It’s actually a rather interesting subject, because most gay men (who I have met) are effeminate, but there are supposedly (I haven’t met them but pro-gay folks do go on about them) non-effeminate gay men, and there are definitely non-gay effeminant men. The thing is regular jock-type guys assume all effeminate men are gay, and all gays are effeminate, which creates an unfortunate dynamic for a puny heterosexual guy w a lisp ;) I think there needs to be a coherent article which explains how in classical times, bisexuality was standard, w effeminate men and boys generally ending up on the "receiving" team, and agro type-a men ending up... running w the ball ;) Today, bisexuality is much less publicly accepted than it was in ancient Greece, and we have a "gay community", something largely unheard of in classic times. Indeed the closest thing they had to a gay community was in the military, w decidedly non-effeminate men who paired off w a partner for combat as well as romantic purposes. It’s all rather confusing, and deserves a quality article to explain to joe-sixpack why the effeminate guy at work might not be a homosexual, while the football player on his TV might be. I wonder, is there any research on effeminacy, showing the likelyhood of an effeminate man to be homosexual, or a homosexual to be effeminate, or what-have-you? All food for thought. I think I better go watch the ball game where there's obviously no homo-erotic behaviours whatsoever, just alot of men in tight clothing slapping each others bottoms... actually, forget the ball game... ;) Sam [Spade] 18:34, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

In my opinion it would be little trouble to make the "classical vice" page part of a larger effeminacy page. The "classical effimancy" is a concept from antiquity and the modern sense is evolved from that, further, they are nearly identical, with small details of what is considered effeminacy varying between times and places. This is how music articles develop, for instance: Chromatic, or chromaticism, is a Greek concept, the term for which was borrowed by Medieval European theorists to describe another concept, the term for which was then applied to the different concept of modern chromaticism.

Also, the "classical vice" article does not: The link provided to vice does not clear this up, but is further confusing, as effeminacy is listed as one of the "cardinal" vices, corresponding to one of the four cardinal virtues, despite being fifth in a list of six. Hyacinth 20:37, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * 1) Mention the intersection of class and gender that defines appropriate effeminacy
 * 2) Mention sex at all
 * 3) Mention the other "classical vices" of which effeminacy is considered a part
 * I just missed my bus to work and thus edited the vice article.

Now what?
Okay, I made a boo-boo. :( I shouldn't have been so thrown off by WHEELER's reaction (over now at Talk:Effeminacy (classical vice)), and I should've tried to work through it.  Does anyone want to help me fix this?  :) - Korpios 20:55, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Mmmmaybe.. ;) Not enough to do alot of work, but enough to keep an eye and help out where I can. I'll also do my part by being sassy in the talk page, which I'm sure we'll all take great comfort in ;) Sam [Spade] 20:57, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I'm going to do the following to get the original article back in place:

 * Move this article to overwrite the redirect over at effeminate.
 * Move effeminacy (classical vice) back over here.
 * Change effeminate back to a redirect to here.
 * Start modifying the article to take into account all the various senses of the term.

 * All the legwork above is necessary because I can't move-overwrite as a non-admin, so I have to do some shuffling. :)

 * - Korpios 17:44, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Bah, I can't even do that since effeminate has an edit history at all, even if it just consists of redirects. :(  Time to get some admin help.... - Korpios 17:46, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

haha, you don't need an admin. I'll see what I will do ;) Sam [Spade] 18:16, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Time to add info
OK, moved. Feel free to add as much info as you can, just please don't delete any of the good stuff wheeler so kindly cited for us :) Sam [Spade] 18:22, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I find it strange that moderns want to change the meaning of words. The word effeminate has over 2500 years of the same meaning. Korpios have you read the Oxford English dictionary? Who is an expert: you Korpios or the OED? Here, I want to point out the arrogance of the moderns who think they can change a word that has a meaning of 2500 years in numerous texts and change it into something else. St. Thomas Aquannis did not change the word. Who is a greater teacher? St. Thomas does not know what he is talking about when he wrote on effeminacy in his Summa Theologica? The OED has 75 references to 500 years of the use of the word in their own language meaning one thing. It corresponds to the classical meaning. Korpios, what you want to do is not in the OED, medieval texts, or classical texts.

Can someone restore the whole history of this article and the original talk page? It now looks like Korpios originated the article. He didn't transfer the old talk page nor the original history of it either. Please restore the history and original talk pages.WHEELER 14:15, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * First, on the history part — you're right, it shouldn't have been clobbered, and that was never my intention (nor that of Sam Spade, I'm certain). It's still sitting around, in all likelihood, in what's now a redirect here.  We might have to get admins involved to fix this properly.

 * Second, back to your definition point: your fallacious Arguments from Authority aside, I don't have access to the OED — but Webster's seems to be a fairly definitive resource, and it states:

 * having feminine qualities untypical of a man : not manly in appearance or manner
 * marked by an unbecoming delicacy or overrefinement

 * Exactly how am I "changing" these meanings? I'd love to know.  You do realize that "feminine" is a reference to gender roles, right?

 * Regardless, the article needs to encompass all meanings, and all from a NPOV.

 * - Korpios 17:01, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

And the first thing to define is what effeminacy is and you changed it. Follow the OED. It defines it first. Then add later meaning after the original meaning. WHEELER 15:27, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Feminine is not a gender role it is a Character trait. Effeminacy is generally, 95% of the time it is applied only to men and societies and in a bad and evil way. Gender role doesn't answer it being applied to human societies on the whole.WHEELER 15:38, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Restore the original history and talk pages of this article Korpios.WHEELER 15:42, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Kor can't easily do that. Nor can anyone, actually - merging edit histories is virtually impossible. The old edit history should still be around on an article. Probably Effeminacy (classical vice) if I understand correctly. As for your other points... oldness does not make something dominant. Effeminacy is now basically used to refer to "Men who seem like they're probably gay." (At least in common usage.) Since no one much calls societies gay, there's limits to how much that usage is current. The OED lists definitions chronologically. However, older definitions are not always the most important. Snowspinner 21:34, Jul 26, 2004 (UTC)

 * People call France gay all the time ;) Sam [Spade] 23:33, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Definitions
There are now least three definitions given on the current article. Hyacinth 21:50, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * 1) The negative classical view: indicative of other "weaknesses"
 * 2) The negative modern view: indicative of gayness
 * 3) The neutral modern view: indicative of nothing else

 * I don't understand the "neutral modern view" part. The term always means the same thing, clasical or modern, it means "feminine". There is no other meaning. Alot of people think a man being Effeminate is bad, or gay, or whatever. The bad is subjective, and as for Effeminates being more likely to be homosexual, I'd like to see some evidence on that (or on gays being likely to be Effeminate, etc...). Sam [Spade] 23:33, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * You especially would not understand as my comments were directed at Wheeler, who accused "moderns" (Korpios?) of "change[ing] the meaning of words". I see what you are saying: it has the same definition even if that definition is viewed negatively or positively. We can argue about whether a definition, by definition, may include a judgement, in which case I would decline to continue the discussion, or you may choose to interpret my previous post more loosely.

 * However, Wheeler has argued that a negative judgement was inherent in the "Classical" definition, and I agree. Even today the same term implies, for some, other negative characterics.

 * Further, the term effeminate does not mean "femininity", it means "femininity in men", which cleary has a value judgement, in that appropriate or correct male and female characteristics or traits are already defined and segregated.

Hyacinth 02:04, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I agree with all of that, and on second reading I understand what you ment, that there are 3 definitions in the article, rather than 3 separate real world definitions. If you ever change your mind and decide you do want to talk about definitions containing value judgments, come on over to Political Correctness, and I (and/or others) will gladly oblige you :). Sam [Spade] 02:25, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Sam, I like your recent edits to the introduction, they help to unify the POVs into one article. However, you turned many strong statements into weak ones with the use of what some call weasel terms. Specifically : "Traditionally it is considered a vice, perhaps even indicative of other negative character traits." I disagree, effiminacy always indicated other negative character traits. This was apparently true of all vices, and either should be spelled out strongly and truthfully, or omitted as obvious. Thus, I edited appropriately. Hyacinth 03:13, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Editing, see above, pointed out to me that we have seperate paragraphs about "characteristics" and "behaviour", with nearly identical discussion. I suggest we merge the two, and will attempt to do so. Hyacinth 03:13, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Butch
I would argue that the definition of this term is essentially the same within and without the gay community (a masculine woman, nearly always a lesbian). Sam [Spade] 03:56, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I suppose the protective status is the more specific meaning to which you refer? Sam [Spade] 04:51, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Nope:
 * "Inherent to butch-fem relationships was the presumption that the butch is the physically active partner and the leader in lovemaking....Yet unlike the dynamics of many heterosexual relationships, the butch's foremost objective was to give sexual pleasure to a fem....The essense of this emotional/sexual dynamic is captured by the ideal of the "stone butch," or untouchable butch."
 * Davis, Madeline and Lapovsky Kennedy, Elizabeth (1989). "Oral History and the Study of Sexuality in the Lesbian Community", Hidden from History: Reclaiming the Gay & Lesbian Past (1990), Duberman, etc, eds. New York: Meridian, New American Library, Penguin Books. ISBN 0452010675.
 * Yah, I was surprised too. Hyacinth 05:03, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Not me, I know all about lesbian lovemaking, stone-butch and all. Don't ask how (lets just say your not the only one whose read a few unusual books ;) Sam [Spade] 05:08, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

"Butch" does not only refer to women. Men can be butch as well. Exploding Boy 00:52, Jul 28, 2004 (UTC)

 * I didn't add that factoid because:
 * I couldn't find a way to make it pertinent
 * I've only heard gay men call men butch
 * Feel free to add it, for instance, "The opposite of effeminacy is butchness, masculinity, etc." could be added to the end of the first paragraph. Thanks. Hyacinth 20:49, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Recents edits
Very good recent edits Hyacinth, I think your getting to the very heart of these matters, whcih IMO is to be found within greek homosexual practices. The strict hierarchy distinction between those who were penetrated (Effeminant slaves, or young boys) and those who did the penetrating (strong and powerful affluent men, exuding machismo) was very signifigant, and relates to topics we have been discussing elsewhere. Sam [Spade] 05:59, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Well, Hycanth and Sam Spade have made better edits to it. The Greeks and the Christian Fathers always held to the ancient law of "Strict Continuity". Words and ideas were kept to their strict meaning. It comes from the mileiu. They were a hard people so their character passed to their mentality. Today we live in an effeminate society, weak in character, weak in constitution, weak in morals, weak in mind. Words can mean anything and everything today. Tomorrow effeminacy is what football players have and it will mean something glorious and it will mean being hard. Today words have no meaning.

This is an example on the uselessness of an encyclopedia for today. Words have no meaning. The good has become evil and evil good.WHEELER 14:01, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Why do I put the occurences of the word in the article? Why does the OED put occurences in their dictionary? Because they both show the meaning of the word in its context. Yet, the NEW and MODERN definitions don't match at all the classical, biblical, Christian contexts at all. Why is that? Because moderns don't care they make all things in their image. They conform reality to what they want it to be not the way it is. Changing reality to the way they want it to be.

I am reminded of the story of Hegel, upon being told that the facts contradicted his theories, he replied sternly: Um so schlimmer für die Tatsachen—"All the worse for the facts". Theory and ideology trumps facts. Modern man is out to rewrite all conventions and knowledge. Modern Man says, I am God, I will remake reality to my liking. Hegel reigns supreme.WHEELER 14:10, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I find it strange that the word has no sexual connotations yet it is made into having sexual connotations. Reading all the historical facts, I can not find where it pertains to anything sexual.WHEELER 14:19, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * First, aren't you a "modern"?
 * Second, do you have any complaints specifically related to the article? Would you care to enumerate them outside of a rant, with details. For instance, you could quote statements within the article that you disagree with and explain why you disagree with them.
 * Thirdly, I would say that the anciennes would not be able to work on wikipedia, because wikipedia does not use definition by fiat, except that I completely disagree that the meaning of words never changed in some mythically perfect past: the word Malakos, you're unchanging ever-constant "effeminate", meant soft, and only through a change in definition or analogy did it come to mean effeminate. Hyacinth 19:59, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * WHEELER - if you feel that way, perhaps Wikipedia is not the project for you? Snowspinner 21:05, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)

Intro
Hi all. If we are going to mention things like "a high voice or lisp", even parenthetically, then we may as well just start making lists of things considered effeminate by different folks in different places at different times. Either that or drop the specifics. Hyacinth 20:02, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I'm ok w such lists, but agree they arn't necessary. I simply added a mention of one of the most commonly "effiminant" stereotypes. Sam [Spade] 20:23, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

If one reads the classical texts and the biblical texts, it doesn't mean homosexual. Effeminacy does not have sexual connotations. So I disagree with all of sudden this is made out to being somehow all about sex. And it isn't. It is a character trait, a persona, a failure of the soul. not some sex thing.WHEELER 20:48, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Hycianth are you Korpios?

And second, please point out in a classical text where Malakos has sexual connotations? Please I am interested in where this is found? WHEELER 20:50, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * ""A Greek word that approaches one modern meaning of effeminate is kinaidos (or cinaedus), a man "whose most salient feature was a supposedly "feminine" love of being sexually penetrated by other men." (14) However, "cinaedus is not actually anchored in that specific sexual practice....It refers instead to a man who has an identity as gender deviant." (15) Kinaidos is malakos, but malakos is more general effeminacy (16).""

Is this sentence really have to do with effeminacy? Effeminacy is something that is missing of the soul. It is not materialistic. It is a vice. This idea of penetration this and penetration that, You think the Encyclopedia Britannica or the Catholic Encyclopedia would or any classical reference dictionary include any of this in it??? NO. I think this is just a bunch of homosexual propaganda that has nothing to do with the term effeminacy at all.WHEELER 20:56, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Except insofar as anyone actually uses the word "effeminate" anymore... Snowspinner 21:05, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)

 * I don't think you moderns have a clue what is meant by this term. I spent my life reading the ancient Greeks and classicists.  This idea has nothing to do with gender roles or homosexuality.  It has to do with being able to stand in the spear line.  Aristotle remarks that an effeminate man is one who lets his cloak drag on the ground.  It is laziness.  The Greek idea of this is laziness, softness of one not able to do his duty.  Where in Aristotle is this about penetration?  Where in Herodotus is this about penetration?  Come on.  What did St. Thomas Aquinas think of the word?  Do any of you know?  How does penetration make the old Athenian kings malakoi?????  Do you find any of your terms and definitions at all in the OED?WHEELER 23:51, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Yes, actually, I do - the first definition of "effeminate" is "Of persons: That has become like a woman:   a. Womanish, unmanly, enervated, feeble; self-indulgent, voluptuous; unbecomingly delicate or over-refined. Also (Obs.) absol." Snowspinner 00:47, Jul 28, 2004 (UTC)

 * First, I, Hyacinth, am not Korpios, as evidenced by my discussion with Korpios and this very talk page. Second, I doesn't matter what you think of me, but what do you think of the article. Thirdly, if this has nothing to do with gender roles, where are the examples of effeminate women? Hyacinth 03:37, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Wikipedia isn't the OED, and we are allowed to use other sources.
 * As Dale Martin explains regarding malakos:
 * "The JB (1966) chooses "catamite," the NAB (1970) renders arsenokoités and malakos together as "sodomite," others translate malakos as "male prostitute" (NIV 1973, NRSV 1989), and again some combine both terms and offer the modern medicalized categories of sexual, or particularly homosexual, "perversion" (RSV 1946, TEV 1966, NEB 1970, REB 1992)."
 * Roget’s II: The New Thesaurus, Third Edition. 1995, reads:
 * "effeminate - ADJECTIVE: Having qualities more appropriate to women than to men: epicene, feminine, sissified, sissyish, unmanly, womanish. See GENDER."
 * Also, please see: What Wikipedia is not and especially Neutral point of view.
 * Hyacinth 03:57, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

title: Talk:Effeminacy/Archive 1


text:
Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/WHEELER2

Personal attack
Where is the personal attack? Sam [Spade] 05:39, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * No personal attacks reads, "Discuss the facts and how to express them, not the attributes of the other party." This would indicate that "negative personal comments" fall under the umbrella of personal attacks. I'm not sure if "evil" qualifies as a "political affiliation attack."
 * I quote WHEELER, responding to Snowspinner, emphasis mine: "What is not appropriate is propaganda and bowlderization of the word that you want to attempt to do. That is evil. You want to rewrite 2500 years that is not right, that is not the truth either."
 * Hyacinth 06:07, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Hmmm... I think it was a bad comment, as were a few others. I'm dubious if they ad up to an official personal attack or not tho. I'll mention something about it in the article talk. Sam [Spade] 06:22, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Outside view?
Sam, I would hardly consider you an "outside view" since you are active on the relevant article and talk page and have disagreed with WHEELER. Hyacinth 20:17, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * My view is "outside" because I agree w neither you summary, nor WHEELER's (altho I admit I don't understand WHEELER's summary, so maybe I do agree w it, and just don't know it?!? ;) Sam [Spade] 20:27, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * Good point. Thanks. Hyacinth 20:46, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
Inositol

In biochemistry, medicine, and related sciences, inositol generally refers to myo-inositol (formerly meso-inositol), the most important stereoisomer of the chemical compound cyclohexane-1,2,3,4,5,6-hexol. Its formula is C6H12O6; the molecule has a ring of six carbon atoms, each with an hydrogen atom and a hydroxyl group (–OH). In myo-inositol, two of the hydroxyls, neither adjacent not opposite, lie above the respective hydrogens relative to the mean plane of the ring.

The compound is a carbohydrate, specifically a sugar alcohol (as distinct from aldoses like glucose) with half the sweetness of sucrose (table sugar). It is one of the most ancient components of living beings with multiple functions in eukaryotes, including structural lipids and secondary messengers. A human kidney makes about two grams per day from glucose, but other tissues synthesize it too. The highest concentration is in the brain, where it plays an important role in making other neurotransmitters and some steroid hormones bind to their receptors. In other tissues, it mediates cell signal transduction in response to a variety of hormones, neurotransmitters, and growth factors and participates in osmoregulation. In most mammalian cells the concentrations of myo-inositol are 5 to 500 times greater inside cells than outside them.

A 2023 meta-analysis found that inositol is a safe and effective treatment in the management of polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS). However, there is only evidence of very low quality for its efficacy in increasing fertility for IVF in women with PCOS.

The other naturally occurring stereoisomers of cyclohexane-1,2,3,4,5,6-hexol are scyllo-, muco-, D-chiro-, L-chiro-, and neo-inositol, although they occur in minimal quantities compared to myo-inositol. The other possible isomers are allo-, epi-, and cis-inositol.

History
myo-Inositol was originally isolated from muscle extracts by Johanes Joseph Scherer (1814–1869) in 1850. It was formerly called meso-inositol to distinguish it from the chiro- isomer. However, since all other isomers are meso (non-chiral) compounds, the name myo-inositol (referencing its original discovery source) is now preferred.

Inositol was once considered a member of the vitamin B complex, namely vitamin B8 before the discovery that it is made naturally in the human body, and therefore cannot be a vitamin or essential nutrient.

Chemical properties
myo-Inositol is a meso compound, meaning it is optically inactive because it has a plane of symmetry. It is a white crystalline powder, relatively stable in the air. It is highly soluble in water, slightly soluble in glacial acetic acid, ethanol, glycol, and glycerin, but insoluble in chloroform and ether.

In its most stable conformation, the myo-inositol isomer assumes the chair conformation, which moves the maximum number of hydroxyls to the equatorial position, where they are farthest apart from each other. In this conformation, the natural myo isomer has a structure in which five of the six hydroxyls (the first, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth) are equatorial, whereas the second hydroxyl group is axial.

Physiological roles
myo-Inositol plays an important role as the structural basis for a number of secondary messengers in eukaryotic cells, the various inositol phosphates. In addition, inositol serves as an important component of the structural lipids phosphatidylinositol (PI) and its various phosphates, the phosphatidylinositol phosphate (PIP) lipids.

Biosynthesis
In humans, myo-Inositol is synthesized de novo but D-chiro-inositol is not. myo-Inositol is synthesized from glucose 6-phosphate (G6P) in two steps. First, G6P is isomerised by an inositol-3-phosphate synthase enzyme (for example, ISYNA1) to myo-inositol 1-phosphate, which is then dephosphorylated by an inositol monophosphatase enzyme (for example, IMPA1) to give free myo-inositol. In humans, most inositol is synthesized in the kidneys, followed by testicles, typically in amounts of a few grams per day.

At the peripheral level, myo-inositol is converted to D-chiro-inositol by a specific epimerase. Only a minor fraction of myo-inositol is converted into D-chiro-inositol. The activity of this epimerase is insulin dependent, causing a reduction of D-chiro-inositol in muscle, fat, and liver when there is insulin resistance. D-chiro-inositol reduces the conversion of testosterone to estrogen, thereby increases the levels of testosterone and worsening PCOS.

Phytic acid in plants
Inositol hexaphosphate, also called phytic acid or IP6, is a phytochemical and the principal storage form of phosphorus in many plant tissues, especially bran and seed. Phosphorus and inositol in phytate form are not generally bioavailable to non-ruminant animals because these animals lack the digestive enzyme phytase required to remove the phosphate groups. Ruminants are readily able to digest phytate because of the phytase produced by microorganisms in the rumen. Moreover, phytic acid also chelates important minerals such as calcium, magnesium, iron, and zinc, making them unabsorbable, and contributing to mineral deficiencies in people whose diets rely highly on bran and seeds for their mineral intake, such as occurs in developing countries.

Inositol penta- (IP5), tetra- (IP4), and triphosphate (IP3) are also called "phytates".

Inositol or its phosphates and associated lipids are found in many foods, in particular fruit, especially cantaloupe and oranges. In plants, the hexaphosphate of inositol, phytic acid or its salts, the phytates, serve as phosphate stores in seed, for example in nuts and beans. Phytic acid also occurs in cereals with high bran content. Phytate is, however, not directly bioavailable to humans in the diet, since it is not digestible. Some food preparation techniques partly break down phytates to change this. However, inositol in the form of glycerophospholipids, as found in certain plant-derived substances such as lecithins, is well absorbed and relatively bioavailable.

Biological function
Inositol, phosphatidylinositol and some of their mono- and polyphosphates function as secondary messengers in a number of intracellular signal transduction pathways. They are involved in a number of biological processes, including: In one important family of pathways, phosphatidylinositol 4,5-bisphosphate (PIP2) is stored in cellular membranes until it is released by any of a number of signalling proteins and transformed into various secondary messengers, for example diacylglycerol and inositol triphosphate.
 * Insulin signal transduction
 * Cytoskeleton assembly
 * Nerve guidance (epsin)
 * Intracellular calcium (Ca2+) concentration control
 * Cell membrane potential maintenance
 * Breakdown of fats
 * Gene expression

'myo-Inositol has very low toxicity, with a reported LD50 10,000 mg/kg body weight (oral) in rats.

Explosives industry
At the 1936 meeting of the American Chemical Society, professor Edward Bartow of the University of Iowa presented a commercially viable means of extracting large amounts of inositol from the phytic acid naturally present in waste corn. As a possible use for the chemical, he suggested 'inositol nitrate' as a more stable alternative to nitroglycerin. Today, inositol nitrate is used to gelatinize nitrocellulose in many modern explosives and solid rocket propellants.

Road salt
When plants are exposed to increasing concentrations of road salt, the plant cells become dysfunctional and undergo apoptosis, leading to inhibited growth. Inositol pretreatment could reverse these effects.

Depression
Large doses of inositol have been studied for treatment of depression, but further study is needed to determine whether this is an effective treatment.

Panic disorder and obsessive-compulsive disorder
Inositol has been found to have modest to moderate effects in patients with panic disorder or obsessive-compulsive disorder.

Trichotillomania
High doses of inositol are sometimes used to treat trichotillomania (compulsive hair-pulling) and related disorders, but a small (N=38) double-blinded placebo-controlled trial did not find a statistically significant improvement with inositol.

Other illnesses
D-chiro-inositol is an important messenger molecule in insulin signaling. Inositol supplementation has been shown to significantly decrease triglycerides and LDL cholesterol in patients with metabolic diseases.

myo-Inositol is important for thyroid hormone synthesis. Depletion of myo-inositol may predispose to development of hypothyroidism. Patients with hypothyroidism have a higher demand for myo-inositol than healthy subjects.

Inositol should not be routinely implemented for the management of preterm babies who have or are at a risk of infant respiratory distress syndrome (RDS). Myo-inositol helps prevent neural tube defects with particular efficacy in combination with folic acid.

Inositol is considered a safe and effective treatment for polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS). It works by increasing insulin sensitivity, which helps to improve ovarian function and reduce hyperandrogenism. It is also shown to reduce the risk of metabolic disease in women with PCOS. In addition, thanks to its role as FSH second messenger, myo-inositol is effective in restoring FSH/LH ratio and menstrual cycle regularization. myo-Inositol's role as FSH second messenger leads to a correct ovarian follicle maturation and consequently to a higher oocyte quality. Improving the oocyte quality in both women with or without PCOS, myo-inositol can be considered as a possible approach for increasing the chance of success in assisted reproductive technologies. In contrast, D-chiro-inositol can impair oocyte quality in a dose-dependent manner. The high level of DCI seems to be related to elevated insulin levels retrieved in about 70% of PCOS women. In this regard, insulin stimulates the irreversible conversion of myo-inositol to D-chiro-inositol causing a drastic reduction of myo-inositol. myo-Inositol depletion is particularly damaging to ovarian follicles because it is involved in FSH signaling, which is impaired due to myo-inositol depletion. Recent evidence reports a faster improvement of the metabolic and hormonal parameters when these two isomers are administered in their physiological ratio. The plasmatic ratio of myo-inositol and D-chiro-inositol in healthy subjects is 40:1 of myo- and D-chiro-inositol respectively. The use of the 40:1 ratio shows the same efficacy of myo-inositol alone but in a shorter time. In addition, the physiological ratio does not impair oocyte quality.

The use of inositols in PCOS is gaining more importance, and an efficacy higher than 70% with a strong safety profile is reported. On the other hand, about 30% of patients could show as inositol-resistant. New evidence regarding PCOS aetiopathogenesis describes an alteration in the species and the quantity of each strain characterizing the normal gastrointestinal flora. This alteration could lead to chronic, low-level inflammation and malabsorption. A possible solution could be represented by the combination of myo-inositol and α-lactalbumin. This combination shows a synergic effect in increasing myo-inositol absorption. A recent study reported that the myo-inositol and α-lactalbumin combination is able to increase myo-inositol plasmatic content in inositol-resistant patients with a relative improvement of hormonal and metabolic parameters.

Use as a cutting agent
Inositol has been used as an adulterant or cutting agent for many illegal drugs, such as cocaine, methamphetamine, and sometimes heroin, probably because of its solubility, powdery texture, or reduced sweetness (50%) compared to more common sugars.

Inositol is also used as a stand-in film prop for cocaine in filmmaking.

Nutritional sources
myo-Inositol is naturally present in a variety of foods, although tables of food composition do not always distinguish between lecithin, the relatively bioavailable lipid form and the biounavailable phytate/phosphate form. Foods containing the highest concentrations of myo-inositol and its compounds include fruits, beans, grains, and nuts. Fruits in particular, especially oranges and cantaloupe, contain the highest amounts of myo-inositol. It is also present in beans, nuts, and grains, however, these contain large amounts of myo-inositol in the phytate form, which is not bioavailable without transformation by phytase enzymes. Bacillus subtilis, the microorganism which produces the fermented food natto, produces phytase enzymes that may convert phytic acid to a more bioavailable form of inositol polyphosphate in the gut. Additionally, Bacteroides species in the gut secrete vesicles containing an active enzyme which converts the phytate molecule into bioavailable phosphorus and inositol polyphosphate, which is an important signaling molecule in the human body.

myo-Inositol can also be found as an ingredient in energy drinks, either in conjunction with or as a substitute for glucose.

In humans, myo-inositol is naturally made from glucose-6-phosphate through enzymatic dephosphorylation.

title: Inositol


text:
Donna De Lory

Donna De Lory is an American singer, dancer and songwriter. Part of a musical family, De Lory has been performing since a young age. Her voice can be heard on albums by Carly Simon, Ray Parker Jr., Kim Carnes, Santana, Martika, Laura Branigan, Belinda Carlisle, Selena, Bette Midler, Barry Manilow, Mylène Farmer, Alisha and Madonna. De Lory accompanied Madonna as backing vocalist and dancer on every concert from the Who's That Girl Tour in 1987, up to the Confessions Tour in 2006. Her performance with Madonna at the Live Earth 2007 concert in London was their final professional collaboration to date.

Early life
Donna De Lory was born September 10 ,1964 in Calabasas, California to record producer/musician Al De Lory and Mary Helyn Soncini.

De Lory has been surrounded by music ever since she was born. The De Lory family is very musical and is well known in the music industry. Her father played piano, electronic organ, and harpsichord on The Beach Boys' Pet Sounds album. He was a producer at Capitol Records and was responsible, among other things, for producing Glen Campbell's '"golden era". In addition, he co-wrote the 1960 Billboard Hot 100 #1 novelty hit for Larry Verne, Mr. Custer. Her grandfather played upright bass and cello for the Warner Bros. Studios Orchestra, recording the scores of classic movies such as Casablanca and Gone with the Wind. Her mother was a singer and dancer. Donna's older brother Alan, known as A.D. DeLory, is also a singer and songwriter. De Lory's late older sister Jolene sang background vocals on the 1973 Carpenters single "Sing".

De Lory made her professional singing debut at age eight singing a Recipe dog food commercial. She sang on children's albums for Walt Disney and was heard on the tune "It's a Small World", featured on a ride at Disneyland and Disney World. She also sang on commercials for McDonald's, Mattel, and Eastman Kodak. In addition, she contributed vocals to projects by Kim Carnes, Barry Manilow, Santana and the Rocky II soundtrack.

She moved to Nashville with her father and brother at the age of 16 following the death of her mother from breast cancer in 1980. Her father found a professional home in Nashville's Music Row area as a producer for Capitol Records. She started working at a vegetarian restaurant and from there, became a vegetarian. De Lory made friends with a few songwriters and became inspired by seeing how much effort they put into their work. She started spending a lot of her time on writing songs and recording demos before going back to California after finishing Hillsboro High School to study dancing, singing and acting.

Madonna
De Lory first came to the public's attention as Madonna's backup singer. In 1985, Gardner Cole, then De Lory's boyfriend, wrote the song "Open Your Heart" which Madonna would later record. At the time Madonna's management was looking for material for her True Blue album, and Cole submitted three songs, including "Open Your Heart". Madonna's manager heard the song and thought it would be a hit for Madonna, so he asked Cole to re-record the song with a female voice. De Lory recorded the song, and Cole then submitted the recording to Madonna's producer Patrick Leonard. Madonna listened to the recording and decided to record the song. Leonard liked De Lory's voice and hired her to sing backup on future projects he produced. When Madonna was looking for backup singers for her 1987 Who's That Girl Tour, De Lory asked Leonard to take her to the auditions. De Lory got the job and toured with Madonna on all her world tours until 2007. De Lory also sang backup on many of Madonna's songs.

Solo career
In 1990, she recorded the song "Always Thinking of You" for the film Three Men and a Little Lady. Her self-titled debut album was released on MCA Records in late 1992. The first single off the album, "Praying For Love", was released 20 October 1992 and went to #1 on the charts in Japan. The second single, "Just A Dream", was released 9 March 1993 and was a top 10 hit on the Hot Dance Club Play chart. It peaked at #71 in the UK Singles Chart in July 1993. "Just A Dream" was written and produced by Madonna and Patrick Leonard and was originally recorded by Madonna for her 1989 Like a Prayer album. De Lory's version incorporated backing vocals by Madonna. The third and final single off the album, "Think It Over", was released 27 July 1993.

She recorded a second album titled Songs '95 and had plans to release it in 1995, but it remained unreleased until 2002. She left the MCA label in late 1994 because her growing interest in world music was starting to show in her own music, much to the dismay of her label who wanted her to keep making pop music. At around this time she was introduced to the Harmonium, an instrument she has been using ever since. She was given the instrument at a party and she learned to play it by herself. She toured France as a backup singer and dancer for Mylène Farmer in 1996 and appears on the live CD/DVD Live à Bercy.

She formed the band Bliss together with cellist Cameron Stone in 1997, whom she was introduced to at the recommendation of her drummer, and released the album Love Never Dies. However, they decided to rename the album to Bliss and bill it to De Lory's name because there already were too many other bands with Bliss in their name and De Lory already had name recognition from her first album and her work with Madonna. The second version of the album billed to Donna's name included new album artwork and the song "Where I've Never Been" which was not on the first version. The name Bliss came from the saying "follow your bliss" which is from one of Donna's favorite authors, Joseph Campbell. De Lory and Stone built a fully equipped 24-track digital studio in her garage, then packed it up and took it in a U-Haul to a cabin in Taos, New Mexico, where most of the material for the album was created. They spent most of 1997 working on the album and finished it by the end of the year. The album was released in early 1998. Cameron Stone also worked on all of her subsequent albums, such as the 2003 album In The Glow. De Lory's 2004 album, The Lover & The Beloved, was a Sanskrit and English CD released on the Ajna Music label.

De Lory performed Princess Elise's theme, "My Destiny", in the 2006 game Sonic the Hedgehog. Her reinterpretation of Joseph Arthur's, In the Sun was featured at the end of episode 5 of NBC's drama Life. Her version of Madonna's song "Papa Don't Preach" appeared in the 2010 film, The Switch.

In 2010, De Lory contributed the song "Bathe in These Waters" to the Yoga Revolution compilation album, a benefit release supporting yoga and fitness programs for underserved schools.

In 2013, De Lory announced via her Twitter account that she would be releasing a new album titled The Unchanging. It was released worldwide on iTunes on 27 August 2013 and made #2 on the World Music Album chart. De Lory combines her melodic vocals and world music influences, but predominantly sings in English. Her former singing partner Niki Haris also features on the track "Kinder" along with Tina Malia. The album also includes a reinterpretation of her single "Praying for Love" and her take on "Amazing Grace". In 2016, De Lory teamed up with Haris to record a cover version of Madonna's 1993 single "Rain", to which they originally had sung backing vocals.

Discography

 * Donna DeLory (1992)
 * Bliss (2000)
 * Songs 95 (2002)
 * In the Glow (2003)
 * The Lover & the Beloved (2004)
 * Sky Is Open (2006)
 * Sanctuary (2009)
 * The Unchanging (2013)
 * Elixir: Songs of the Radiance Sutras (2015)
 * Here in Heaven (2018)
 * Gone Beyond (2021)

Filmography

 * Madonna: Truth or Dare (1991)
 * Women of the Night (2001)
 * I'm Going to Tell You a Secret (2005)

title: Donna De Lory


text:
Anegada

Anegada is the northernmost of the British Virgin Islands (BVI), a group of islands that form part of the archipelago of the Virgin Islands. It lies approximately 15 mi north of Virgin Gorda. Anegada is the only inhabited British Virgin Island formed from coral and limestone, rather than being of volcanic origin. While the other islands are mountainous, Anegada is flat and low. Its highest point is only about 28 ft above sea level, earning it its name, which is the Spanish term for the flooded land, "tierra anegada".

Additionally, Anegada is the only sliver of land directly south of Bermuda, another British overseas territory. Nonetheless, directly west of Mauritania in Africa and east of all other islands in the British Virgin Islands.

At about 15 square miles (38 square kilometers), Anegada is the second largest of the British Virgin Islands. with a population of 450 as of the 2024 Census. Most of the population on Anegada live in the only village, The Settlement.

Economy
The primary business of Anegada is tourism. On a typical day during the tourist season, the island will have an additional 200-300 visitors. Commercial fishing is also a substantial business on Anegada, with local fishermen providing most of the fresh fish and lobster catch for the rest of the British Virgin Islands. Its miles of south shore flats have a large population of bonefish, making Anegada a popular destination for fly fishing.

From 2008 to 2013 Anegada was home to one of the tallest Christmas trees in the Caribbean and had an official tree lighting ceremony and party each year. The tree donated by Adrian Johnson was intended to help bring visitors to the island and provided a flotilla destination for many sailors.

Access
Access to the island is via the small Auguste George Airport (NGD), thrice-weekly ferries, and private boat. Charter flights run directly to Anegada from Tortola and Virgin Gorda, in the BVI, as well as San Juan, St. Thomas, Antigua and St. Maarten.

Horseshoe Reef
Anegada is known for miles of white sand beaches and the 18 mi-long Horseshoe Reef, one of the largest barrier coral reefs in the Caribbean. The reef makes navigation to Anegada difficult. While charter boats freely sail among most of the other Virgin Islands, charter companies often forbid clients to sail to Anegada to avoid running aground on the reef.

The reef has caused hundreds of shipwrecks, including HMS Astraea in 1808, the Donna Paula (1819), and the MS Rocus (1929) As such, it was once an important scuba diving destination. In an effort to protect the reef, the BVI government has made anchoring on Horseshoe Reef illegal.

Fauna
Anegada is also known for the large salt ponds that cover much of the west end of the island, These ponds, which support unique fauna, were designated a Ramsar Site on 11 May 1999. In the 1830s, thousands of Caribbean flamingos lived in these ponds, but they were hunted for food and feathers throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries and disappeared by 1950. They have been reestablished. As of 2016, the flamingo flock numbers approximately 200 birds. The birds are another tourist draw, but officials are trying to keep the number of visitors to the flamingo areas at a level that allows the birds to flourish. The western salt ponds and south-eastern coastal mangroves have been recognised as an Important Bird Area (IBA) by BirdLife International.

Other rare or endangered animals include the Anegada rock iguana (Cyclura pinguis) and several species of turtles. Conch, Caribbean lobster (Metanephrops binghami), and many species of fishes can be found near Anegada, particularly in the deep waters off the North Drop to the north of the island.

The Ft. Worth Zoo now maintains an Anegada Rock "Headstart" facility in the Settlement. Newly hatched iguanas are caught in the wild, brought to the facility, and raised until they are large enough to be able to defend themselves against the feral cats that are their only predator on Anegada. As of 2016, over 200 iguanas have been released from the headstart program back into the wild. In addition, an annual Iguana Festival is held outside the Iguana Headstart Facility to celebrate the island's native species.

The reef adjacent to the Settlement was once one of the more fertile conch grounds in the Caribbean, but overfishing has wiped out the conch population there. Visitors to the settlement are greeted by the sight of mountains of empty conch shells on the shore when they arrive.

There are also populations of feral cattle, donkeys, goats, cows, and sheep that live in all areas of the island.

Hurricanes
Anegadians traditionally endured hurricanes by tying their dories to the trunks of mangroves with rope and covering with a tarp. Today, given sufficient warning, few leave the island and go to Tortola until after the storm passes.

On 30 August 2010, the eye of Hurricane Earl passed 15 to 20 mi north of Anegada at category 4, with winds in excess of 135 mph. The close passage led to significant damage on the island, with major flooding on the south side from the storm surge and breaking waves. The north side of the island experienced no storm surge, and Horseshoe Reef protected the north side of the island from breaking waves. 24 hours before the storm arrived, the forecast was for the storm to pass well to the north. By the time that it was apparent that the hurricane was going to have a major impact, all transportation service from Anegada (air and ferry) had been suspended. There were no reported serious injuries to anyone on the island.

On 6 September 2017, the eye of Hurricane Irma passed 12 mi south of Anegada at category 5, with winds in excess of 185 mph. The northern eye wall of Irma passed directly over Anegada, causing major damage on the island. Some people evacuated to Tortola before the storm struck, but most people remained on the island. There was some flooding on the south side from the storm surge and breaking waves. The north side of the island experienced no storm surge, and Horseshoe Reef protected the north side of the island from breaking waves. There were no reported serious injuries to anyone on the island.

Education
Approximately 70 students attend school at the Claudia Creque Educational Centre, formerly Anegada Primary and Secondary School. This self-contained school is the only school on Anegada and handles pre-school, primary, and secondary levels. It is funded and operated by the British Virgin Islands government.

title: Anegada


text:
Anthony Benezet

Anthony Benezet (January 31, 1713 – May 3, 1784) was a French-born American abolitionist and teacher who was active in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. A prominent member of the abolitionist movement in North America, Benezet founded one of the world's first anti-slavery societies, the Society for the Relief of Free Negroes Unlawfully Held in Bondage. He also founded the first public school for girls in North America and the Negro School at Philadelphia, which operated into the nineteenth century. Benezet advocated for kind treatment of animals, racial equality and universal love.

Biography
Antoine was born in Saint-Quentin, France, to Jean-Étienne de Bénézet (later known as John Stephen Benezet) and his wife Judith de la Méjanelle, who were Huguenots (French Protestants). The Huguenots had been persecuted and suffered violent attacks in France since the 1685 revocation of the Edict of Nantes, which had provided religious tolerance. For a while his family had received protection owing to their powerful connections. However in 1715 his father's goods were seized, so, like many others, the family left France rather than give up their religion. They moved first to Rotterdam, then briefly to Greenwich before settling in London, where there was a sizeable Huguenot refugee community. In 1727, Benezet joined the Religious Society of Friends (also known as Quakers).

In 1731, the Benezet family migrated to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, founded by Quakers and one of the English colonies of North America. Then 18 years old, Anthony Benezet joined John Woolman as one of the earliest American abolitionists. Like Woolman, Benezet also advocated war tax resistance. Several years later in 1736, he married Joyce Marriott.

In Philadelphia, Benezet worked to persuade his Quaker brethren that slave-owning was not consistent with Christian doctrine. He believed that the ban on slavery in the British Isles should be extended to the North American and Caribbean colonies. (After the Americans gained independence in the Revolutionary War, Benezet continued to urge the United States to ban slavery, and the state of Pennsylvania legislated slavery's gradual abolition in 1780.)

After several years as a failed merchant, in 1739 Benezet began teaching at a Germantown school, then a separate jurisdiction northwest of Philadelphia. In 1742, he moved to the Friends' English School of Philadelphia (now the William Penn Charter School). In 1750 he added night classes for black slaves to his schedule.

In 1755, Benezet left the Friends' English School to set up his own school, the first public girls' school on the American continent. His students included daughters from prominent families, such as Deborah Norris and Sally Wister.

In 1770, he founded the Negro School at Philadelphia for black children. There was a growing free black community in Philadelphia, which increased after the state abolished slavery. Abolitionist sympathizers, such as Abigail Hopper Gibbons, continued to teach at Benezet's Negro School in the years before the American Civil War.

In 1775, he helped found the first anti-slavery society, the Society for the Relief of Free Negroes Unlawfully Held in Bondage. Eight years later in 1783, Benezet wrote a letter to Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz discussing "the cruelty of slavery and his opposition to the slave trade." After Benezet's death, Benjamin Franklin and Dr. Benjamin Rush reconstituted this association as the Pennsylvania Society for Promoting the Abolition of Slavery.

Benezet was known for his kindness to animals such as feeding rats in his garden. He was once offered chicken for dinner which he replied "What, would you have me eat my neighbors?". Benezet and his wife were alleged to be vegetarians but according to Jacob Lindley, a Quaker minister who dined with Benezet and his wife, they ate corn beef, cabbage and potatoes. Benezet was a teetotaller and supported the temperance movement. He authored a pamphlet in 1774, The Mighty Destroyer Displayed which influenced Benjamin Rush, an early temperance advocate.

Legacy
The first anti-slavery newspaper article in the United States was published on March 8, 1775, in the Pennsylvania Journal and Weekly Advertiser, a newspaper based in Philadelphia. The article, titled "The Slavery of Negroes in America," was written by the Quaker writer and abolitionist Anthony Benezet, and it called for the abolition of slavery in all the colonies and the end of the slave trade worldwide. The estimated population of 1775 Philadelphia was 40,000 people, making it the biggest city in all the colonies. In 1817, the abolitionist Roberts Vaux published a biography about Anthony Benezet.

Works

 * Observations on the inslaving [sp], importing and purchasing of Negroes. With some advice thereon, extracted from the Epistle of the yearly-meeting of the people called Quakers held at London in the year 1748., 1760

This brief work, written while Benezet was teaching at the Quaker Girls' School in Philadelphia, was the author's first publication to draw on sources documenting the African trade in slavery.

 * An Epistle of Caution and Advice, Concerning the Buying and Keeping of Slaves, 1754
 * A short account of that part of Africa inhabited by the negroes, 1762
 * A Caution and Warning to Great Britain and her Colonies, in a short representation of the calamitous state of the enslaved negroes in the British Dominions. Collected from various authors, etc., 1767
 * Some Historical Account of Guinea ... With an inquiry into the rise and progress of the slave-trade ... Also a republication of the sentiments of several authors of note on this interesting subject; particularly an extract of a treatise by Granville Sharp, 1771
 * The potent enemies of America laid open : being some account of the baneful effects attending the use of distilled spirituous liquors, and the slavery of the Negroes : to which is added, The happiness attending life, when dedicated to the honour of God, and good of mankind, in the sentiments of some persons of eminence near the close of their lives, viz. the Earl of Essex, Count Oxcistern, H. Grotius, D. Brainard, John Lock, &c., 1774.
 * The mighty destroyer displayed, in some account of the dreadful havock made by the mistaken use as well as abuse of distilled spirituous liquors, 1774.
 * Some observations on the situation, disposition, and character of the Indian natives of this continent, 1784.

title: Anthony Benezet


text: User talk:61.246.160.101

title: User talk:61.246.160.101


text:
Talk:Thyone (moon)

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English pronunciation [thigh-OH-nee] per the Pronouncing Dictionary of Proper Names (Bollard ed.)

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title: Talk:Thyone (moon)


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Talk:Krag–Jørgensen

Early Development
Pretty much all of chapter 5. Details of the experiemtns leading up to the half-capsule magasine, see pages 74 to 77. Details regading the testing of the early prototypes in Denmark, see pages 77 to 78. Details regarding changes brought about due to feedback from the Danes, see pages 85 to 93.

Danish Krag-Jørgensen rifles
See pages 78 to 84. Good info at http://www.public.asu.edu/~roblewis/SMLE/IIID2a10b.htm retrived at 2005-01-26

American Krag-Jørgensen rifles
See pages 89 to 91 - allthought this source is weak on this and most info has been provided by other wikipedians.
 * Found more info about the various subtypes of american Krags at http://home.sprynet.com/~frfrog/kragrifl.htm and added it to the page.WegianWarrior 11:36, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Norwegian Krag-Jørgensen rifles
Selection of caliber, see page 94 to 96. For details on the selection and testing, see pages 95 to 113 (short paragraph on the swedes selection of the Mauser on page 108).

ammunition
Despite what some people claim, the ammunition produced in Sweden and Norway are interchangeable. The norwegian round is insignificantly longer, which means that a spanking new Swedish Mauser may require a certain push on the bolthandle to chamber it completly - thats all there is. The reason the rumour has survived is, I believe, that the swedish weaponhistorian Josef Alm repeted it in a book. Perhaps he did that because he didn't bother to check the reports from "generalfelttygmestaren" and "chefen for artelleriet" - who conclude that the ammunition prodused in both nations are within the spesified parameters and interchangable - or perhaps he did that because he was angry that Norway kicked the swedes out in 1905 and went their own way... I don't know. What I do know is that any rumour to the effect that the ammunition is not interchangable is just that... a rumour. See pages 368 to 370

subtypes

 * M1894, chapters 7 (militarty rifles), 8 (civilian rifles), 9 (naval rifles) and 13 (M1894 w/ telescopic sights)
 * M1895, M1897, M1904 and M1907, chapter 11 (the short K-J carabines)
 * M1906 Boys Carabine, chapter 12
 * M1912, M1912/16 and M1912/18, chapter 14
 * M1923, chapter 15
 * M1925, chapter 16
 * M1930, chapter 17

Production for Nazi Germany during WWII
See chapter 18. Includes a lot of interesting stuff btw.

Post War Production
See chapter 19.

Ammunition
Taken from various chapters in the book, website mentioned under American Krag-Jørgensen variants (retrived on 2005-01-26) and from a an online discussion on homeloading for the Krag-Jørgesen (retrived 2005-01-28)

Comparison of service rifles
Taken from various chapters in the book, the website mentioned under Danish Krag-Jørgensen variants, and the website mentioned under American Krag-Jørgensen variants, both retrived on 2005-01-26.

Things to do

 * Get hold of and upload images (make sure not to violate copyright)
 * Find more info on the danish Krags
 * Ditto the american Krags
 * Perhaps a table comparing data on the various Krags? Gonna take some work to find it all, but I think it's worth it.

Feel free to add to the list people. WegianWarrior 09:27, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * I think we're mostly done with the list. WegianWarrior 07:30, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Moved this section below the reference section WegianWarrior 08:24, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Song
The article should mention the famous U.S. song from the Philippine-American War with the verse

 * Damn, damn, damn the Filipinos!
 * Cut throat khaki ladrones!
 * Underneath the starry flag,
 * Civilize them with a Krag,
 * And return us to our beloved home.

Infrogmation 11:24, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * I've added it to the article. From a quick Google search, the song evidently has some variations, and continues to be sung by some in the military to present times (!). And the phrase "Civilize them with a Krag" is evidently even more famous than the song Google. -- Infrogmation 11:35, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Excelent information. Would you happen to have a good reference for it as well? WegianWarrior 11:57, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Magazine cutoff
"All production rifles up World War 2 also featured a magazine cut-off,"  should this read "All production rifles up to World War 2 also featured a magazine cut-off," ?

Shoka

 * Uhm... might be me not being a native english speaker, but yeah. I seem to have forgotten to put a 'to' in there. WegianWarrior 10:35, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

There is some misunderstanding of the purpose of magazine cutoffs. The theory of the time, late 19th century, was that magazine fed repeating rifles would cause infantry to "waste" ammunition by firing it too fast. The purpose of the cutoff was that infantry would fire in volley, under positive command of their NCO's and officers, a single round at a time manually fed. The magazine would be left full in case of a close charge of the enemy, in which the infantryman would be authorized to flip off the magazine cutoff and fire at will. A silly theory that took a while to leave the minds of ordnance bureaus. 170.186.245.72 (talk) 22:16, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Featured Article
Hooray! This is now a featured article! I wish to thank everyone who contributed so far, as well as everybody giving constructive critizim and helping support it when I posted it on WP:FAC. Thank you all! WegianWarrior 07:50, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * And now this on the front page! This was one of the first articles I gave constructive criticism from peer review... nice to see that such hard work has gone rewarded. - Ta bu shi da yu 02:32, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * And I'm so proud... sort like seeing your kid graduate, except without all that other racket kids cause =)
 * Couldn't have done it without your input Ta bu shi da yu... or the others for that matter. WegianWarrior 10:36, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Category:Weapons of the United States
Can this be added to Category:Weapons of the United States since it was used by the United States? --Kenyon 06:50, May 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * you can be bold and just do things like that yourself y'know ;) But, anyhow, consider it done. WegianWarrior 05:32, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Reliable sourcing?
In doing a review of Geocities references (Yahoo is scheduled to close down the site later this year) I noticed several references on this article were sourced to a Norwegian gun owner's Geocities page, which would fail WP:RS unless the individual is independently recognized as an expert in the field. Similarly with another reference that appeared to be a personal homepage. Posting to talk because it's very unusual to find this in a featured article. Discussion? Durova Charge! 05:03, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Danish/US bias?
It strikes me as strange that a Norwegian weapon used in Norwegian service has the Danish, then the US, versions listed first. Particularly the mention of the US Krag-Jørgensens before the Norwegian ones seem to reflect a US bias. I'd suggest re-ordering such that the Norwegian is first, or at least, moving the Danish section down such that the list is in alphabetical order. 129.241.210.239 (talk) 11:11, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

 * It reads as the chronological adoption of the rifle to me. The bias is not in authoring but reflects how the gun was taken up by different nations. GraemeLeggett (talk) 12:57, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Springfield Model 1892–99
Per Talk:Springfield_Model_1892–99 - seven years is long enough before merging WegianWarrior (talk) 10:09, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

 * I'm against it. The US Krag has a distinct history from the Danish and Norwegian Krags.  Merging the articles would be like lumping all the Mauser variants into the Mauser article. TeamZissou (talk) 14:27, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

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Philippine use
At the Philippine Veterans Museum in Taguig, there is on display a Krag carbine which is said to have been used by Philippine guerrillas during World War II. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.105.76.54 (talk) 09:47, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Krag–Jørgensen


text:
Deoxycholic acid

Deoxycholic acid is a bile acid. Deoxycholic acid is one of the secondary bile acids, which are metabolic byproducts of intestinal bacteria. The two primary bile acids secreted by the liver are cholic acid and chenodeoxycholic acid. Bacteria metabolize chenodeoxycholic acid into the secondary bile acid lithocholic acid, and they metabolize cholic acid into deoxycholic acid. There are additional secondary bile acids, such as ursodeoxycholic acid. Deoxycholic acid is soluble in alcohol and acetic acid. When pure, it exists in a white to off-white crystalline powder form.

Deoxycholic acid is available as a generic medication in the United States as of April 2021, sold under the brand name Kybella among others.

Applications
Deoxycholic acid has been used since its discovery in various fields of human medicine. In the human body deoxycholic acid is used in the emulsification of fats for absorption in the intestine. It has, in some countries (including Switzerland) been licensed as an emulsifier in food industry, but it is no longer common. Outside the body it is used in experimental basis of cholagogues and is also in use to prevent and dissolve gallstones.

In research deoxycholic acid is used as a mild detergent for the isolation of membrane associated proteins. The critical micelle concentration for deoxycholic acid is approximately 2.4–4 mM.

Sodium deoxycholate, the sodium salt of deoxycholic acid, is often used as a biological detergent to lyse cells and solubilise cellular and membrane components. Sodium deoxycholate mixed with phosphatidylcholine, is used in mesotherapy injections to produce lipolysis, and has been used as an alternative to surgical excision in the treatment of lipomas.

Deoxycholates and bile acid derivatives in general are actively being studied as structures for incorporation in nanotechnology. They also have found application in microlithography as photoresistant components.

In the United States, deoxycholic acid, under the brand name Kybella, is approved by the Food and Drug Administration for reducing moderate-to-severe fat below the chin. When injected into submental fat, deoxycholic acid helps destroy (adipocytes) fat cells, which are metabolized by the body over the course of several months. Kybella is produced by Kythera Biopharmaceuticals.

Research in immunology
Its function as a detergent and isolating agent for membrane proteins also suits it for production of outer membrane protein (OMP) vaccines such as MenB, a Norwegian vaccine developed in the early 1990s. The MeNZB vaccine was produced using the same method.

Deoxycholic acid binds and activates the membrane enzyme NAPE-PLD, which catalyzes the release of the endogenous cannabinoid anandamide and other N-acylethanolamines. These bioactive signaling molecules play important roles in several physiological pathways including stress and pain response, appetite, and lifespan.

Some publications point towards the effect of deoxycholic acid as an immunostimulant of the innate immune system, activating its main actors, the macrophages. According to these publications, a sufficient amount of deoxycholic acid in the human body would correspond with a good immune reaction of the non-specific immune system. Clinical studies conducted in the 1970s and 1980s confirm the expectation that deoxycholic acid is involved in the natural healing processes of local inflammations, different types of herpes, and possibly cancer.

Research in cancer
Deoxycholate and other secondary bile acids cause DNA damage. Secondary bile acids increase intracellular production of reactive oxygen and reactive nitrogen species resulting in increased oxidative stress and DNA damage. As shown in the figure below, deoxycholate added to the diet of mice increased the level of 8-oxo-dG, an oxidative DNA damage, in the colonic epithelium of mice. When the level of deoxycholate-induced DNA damage is high, DNA repair enzymes that ordinarily reverse DNA damage may not be able to keep up.

DNA damage has frequently been proposed as a major cause of cancer. DNA damage can give rise to cancer by causing mutations.

When deoxycholate was added to the food of mice so that their feces contained deoxycholate at about the same level present in feces of human on a high fat diet, 45% to 56% of the mice developed colon cancer over the next 10 months, while none of the mice on a diet without deoxycholate developed cancer. Thus, exposure of the colon to deoxycholate may cause cancer in mice. However, this same study reported that, when chlorogenic acid was added to the diet alongside deoxycholate, only 18% of the mice developed colon cancer. Chlorogenic acid is a component of common foods and beverages; coffee contains an average of 53.8 mg chlorogenic acid per 100 ml. Therefore, to consume the level of chlorogenic acid used in the study, a human on a "standard" 2000-calorie daily diet (416 g/d; 250g carbs, 100g protein, 66g fat) would need to consume roughly 55 mL of coffee each day, or just under 2 fluid ounces.

In humans, higher levels of colonic deoxycholate are associated with higher frequencies of colon cancer. As an example, the fecal deoxycholate concentrations in African Americans (who eat a relatively high fat diet) is more than five times higher than fecal deoxycholate of Native Africans in South Africa (who eat a low fat diet). Male African Americans have a high incidence of colon cancer of 72 per 100,000, while Native Africans in South Africa have a low incidence rate of colon cancer of less than 1 per 100,000, a more than 72-fold difference in rates of colon cancer.

A prospective human study investigating the relationship between microbial metabolites and cancer found a strong correlation between circulating deoxycholic acid and colorectal cancer risk in women.

Factors affecting deoxycholate levels
A number of factors, including diet, obesity, and exercise, affect the level of deoxycholate in the human colon. When humans were switched from their usual diet to a meat, egg and cheese based diet for five days, deoxycholate in their feces increased by factors of 2 to 10 fold. Rats fed diets with 30% beef tallow (high fat) had almost 2-fold more deoxycholate in their feces than rats fed 5% beef tallow (low fat). In the same study, adding the further dietary elements of curcumin or caffeic acid to the rats' high fat (30% beef tallow) diet reduced the deoxycholate in their feces to levels comparable to levels seen in the rats on a low fat diet. Curcumin is a component of the spice turmeric, and caffeic acid is a component high in some fruits and spices. Caffeic acid is also a digestive break-down product of chlorogenic acid, high in coffee and some fruits and vegetables. In addition to fats, the type or amount of protein in the diet may also affect bile acid levels. Switching from a diet with protein provided by casein to a diet with protein provided by salmon protein hydrolysate led to as much as a 6-fold increase in levels of bile acids in the blood plasma of rats. In humans, adding high protein to a high fat diet raised the level of deoxycholate in the plasma by almost 50%.

Obesity has been linked to cancer, and this link is in part through deoxycholate. In obese people, the relative proportion of Firmicutes (Gram-positive bacteria) in gut microbiota is increased resulting in greater conversion of the non-genotoxic primary bile acid, cholic acid, to carcinogenic deoxycholate.

Exercise decreases deoxycholate in the colon. Humans whose level of physical activity placed them in the top third had a 17% decrease in fecal bile acid concentration compared to those whose level of physical activity placed them in the lowest third. Rats provided with an exercise wheel had a lower ratio of secondary bile acids to primary bile acids than sedentary rats in their feces. There is a positive association of exercise and physical activity with cancer prevention, tolerance to cancer-directed therapies (radiation and chemotherapy), reduction in recurrence, and improvement in survival.

title: Deoxycholic acid


text:
Talk:Adrastea (moon)

Spoken Word Article
Hi everyone, I added a spoken word version of this article. Please let me know if I made any errors or mispronunciations. Thank you! TheFugeni (talk) 07:59, 21 March 2021 (UTC)TheFugeni

Contradiction for origin of name
In the first paragraph Adrastea is said to be the foster mother of Zeus, but in section 'Discovery and Observations', it says it is the daughter of Zeus and his lover. The disambiguation page for Adrastea does include the two possibilities, but i'd imagine that foster mother (being the closest moon), would make more sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MNegrello (talk • contribs) 06:33, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Pronunciation
Although the pronunciation a-dras'-tee-a is common in astronomical web sites, some agree with the Dictionary of Classical Mythology (JE Zimmerman, Harper & Row, 1964) and the Columbia Encyclopedia in having a'-dras-tee'-a. The difference depends on whether you look to the Latin or to the Greek: most names from the Greek classics have been filtered through Latin, and the accent has often shifted. Astronomical bodies that we've known of longer, such as the Galilean satellites, have a Latinate pronunciation, whereas there's often dispute with more recent names.

Since the Greek penult is heavy, the literary English (Latinate) pronunciation has penultimate stress. The Greek spelling is included for those of you who'd prefer that instead. --kwami 02:13, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Edit on 9th October
If my English serves me correctly, the article states that the spacecraft did not find anything smaller than Adrastea but can find Adrastea itself.

I'm reverting.

--58.152.147.161 18:59, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Names of the discoverers
Isn't it usual to spell out full names of the people who discovered the moon? I'm sure there is more to "G." in "G. Edward Danielson" than meets the eye. Admiral Norton (talk) 18:19, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

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Talk:Themisto (moon)

Infobox
A more compact infobox, based on a this template has been suggested for the irregular satellites (e.g. S/2002 N 2). The reasons are given (and you comments are welcome) on the project page. Eurocommuter 13:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation
English pronunciation [the-MISS-toe] per The Dictionary of Classical Mythology (JE Zimmerman, Harper & Row, 1964)

 * Given the final omega, adj. form may be Themistoan. Another possibility, Themistian, would be homonymous with the adj. form of Themis. kwami 00:57, 2005 Jun 20 (UTC)

Discoverer
jpl only mentions Sheppard, Jewitt, Fernandez, and Magnier as discoverer not Kowal and Roemer. Should we have all named or only Sheppard and Co.? --Marsve 13:10, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I think Kowal and Roemer deserver to be included for finding Themisto first (As S/1975 J1) even if it was lost aftwerwards for 25 years. --Patteroast 15:56, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Agree.
 * Urhixidur 16:26, 2005 Apr 16 (UTC)

 * They missed? Oh.  I thought Sheppard's group is on record somewhere indicating they felt Kowal's group shouldn't share credit.  Too bad they have to carp over all their many discoveries.  However, I think that Kowal et al. deserve credit, similar to the situation with Janus and Epimetheus.  Also, one of Neptune's moons I think that also should be given prior shared credit? --Sturmde 06:33, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I’m fully with you on the fact that they deserve; the problem is to quote the official ref as we’re not in business of deciding who deserves what. The text, of course can be highlighting Kowal's discovery. Eurocommuter 12:50, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Orbital Elemets
When looking at the orbital elements for Themisto, I can see large contradictions.

For example, for the semi-major axis, gives 7.507 Mkm,  gives 7.284 Mkm, and this page gives yet another. Which sources are more accurate? JamesFox 17:49, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The popular Sheppard page is based on the same source (Jacobson) but apparently not updated. Jacobson data (JPL) site are the most used ref in scientific papers for mean elements (integrated for at least 1000 years). Some papers do their own longer integrations to determine statibity or confirm some hypothesis on the origin. The osculating (Keplerian) elements for many satellites change very dramatically in short periods of time. Also, for newly discovered moons, the initial orbit elements are further refined and typically change a lot. Consequently, I believe we should quote Jacobson (JPL) as a matter of routine with a link for the Ephemeris (IAU) for today’s) orbital elements. I suggest to move this discussion to irregular satellites or the project. Please also see project page Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Astronomical_objects. My apologies I missed your post here; I haven’t got to this sat yet and it was not on my watchlist; it is not even cat as irregular satellite (see for example S/2002 N 1) for an updated example. Eurocommuter 12:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, that's cleared up... But can the orbital inclination of Themisto really be only 14 degrees (compared to the equator of jupiter)? JamesFox 20:40, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Why was this removed from the hypothetical astronomical objects category?
It was certainly thought to exist but unconfirmed for a long time. Please do not remove things without discussion. Mrwuggs 22:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not the one who removed it, but I would think that once confirmed, it is no longer hypothetical. JamesFox 10:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

That's true, but most of the article is about how it was discovered, lost before it could be confirmed, and rediscovered, making the primary topic of this page the history of astronomy that surrounds it. Stacey 14:37, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to bring this back up. The page for the hypothetical astronomical objects category gives the following definition: "Hypothetical bodies of the Solar system are astronomical bodies suggested or once believed to exist within the Solar system, but which have either not been proven to exist or been proven not to exist." Given the last clause, and that we have proof Themisto exists, either it doesn't seem to belong in this category or the category description needs to be changed. --Patteroast 09:15, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Image
The image thumbnail here was present in the article, presumably because of the file name. However this is just the Celestia generic asteorid model and therefore provides precious little value to this article. Icalanise (talk) 18:06, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

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Category:Cocktails

A cocktail is a mixed drink containing one or more distilled spirits, such as brandy, cognac, gin, rum, tequila, vodka, or sometimes other spirits. Usually one or more non-alcoholic mixers or a fermented alcohols, such as beer or wine, are mixed with the distilled spirits. The entire mixture is usually served in a glass, often along with a garnish.

title: Category:Cocktails


text:
Talk:Visayan Tarictic Hornbill

Taxonomy
Is this article about the Tarictic Hornbill, P. panini, or the Mindanao Hornbill, P. affinis?. Are the races listed actually races, or should they be shown as other species in the genus Penelopides?

Bird articles should be capitalised (Wikipedia convention), and I've added a taxobox and author.

 * Hi, well it was meant to be Mindanao hornbill (P. affinis). But I posted the wrong image. Your edition was very nice but quite premature though since I got the notice about the error from Callan Bentley just today. I will correct it by re-editing it to p. affinis, moving the image to a separate article about p. panini. I already got a fresh image of p. affinis from Noah Jackson who is currently in the island of Panay, Philippines doing research and preservation work on the birds. I will be uploading the image soon.

Regarding the race and genus, I am not an expert on this. Perhaps Noah can help us clarify this matter. Thanks a lot. Latorilla 07:47, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

title: Talk:Visayan Tarictic Hornbill