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Talk:Kimi Räikkönen

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Talk page archived
Yeap, that's it.--CaptainNtheGameMaster (talk) 06:57, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

Records and achievements
Is there a reason why this section is bulleted and other former World Champions have a table. I have also noticed some trivia in that section like most fastest laps at a particular circuit, winning on his Ferrari debut and getting a landmark Ferrari manufacturer podium. Mobile mundo (talk) 13:57, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not aware of any reason why this section is bulleted rather than being a table. I would have no objection to you converting it to a table and/or removing some of the trivia. DH85868993 (talk) 12:32, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Former racing driver?
your edit summary says: "This is more or less a BLP violation, without any source saying he has retired from racing as a whole,". I have the exact opposite opinion. Removing the word former means he is a current racing driver, which is an unsourced claim. As far am I am concerned, if someone is not actively racing, then they are a former racing driver. Because Raikkonen doesn't have to officially announce a retirement from racing, this stance of yours effectiely leads to a situation where we imply that Raikkonen is still active in his 70s. SSSB (talk) 13:03, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I think we can apply common sense here, Kimi is not in his 70's and he retired from Formula One just a few months ago. I don't see why we need to rush in calling him ″former″ implying he has completely retired from motorsport when we have no indiciation that is the case. Say we write former and he participates in a race event, rally in Finland just as an example, should we just alternate between removing and adding former until he like you said, is in his 70's and clearly retired? Just wait until it's clear, there's isn't any rush. --TylerBurden (talk) 13:11, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Former doesn't mean he has retired. It just means he was racing and isn't any more. Which is true. That being said, I see your point, and agree that maybe we should wait a couple of years before declaring him as a former driver. SSSB (talk) 13:20, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I think that is sensible, it would of course be a different situation if he had gone years without any racing. But as of now his exit from Formula One is still fresh and I think it's fair to take some time given he has a family and such as well after an intense racing schedule for years. I think it's best to leave out until either it comes out he has no plans to continue racing at all or more time passes. --TylerBurden (talk) 13:34, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

"Paula Räikkönen" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Paula Räikkönen and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. signed,Rosguill talk 02:40, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Overlinking of Sebastian Vettel
Why is Sebastian Vettel linked so much in this article? I've counted up to thrice in a single paragraph and I don't think any of them are useful at helping the reader's understanding of certain parts of the text as it normally is quite obvious who he is, even to someone that doesn't watch the sport after not long reading. If anyone can tell me whether these are actually needed or not, I would appreciate it. I just don't understand why it's linked so much. Thanks. TVKR (talk) 19:55, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

 * @TVKR Probably just editorial oversight, quite a few editors seem to not check if there are other links before adding new ones, or they are just not aware of the manual of style. Though MOS:LINKING was recently altered to be more lenient with the amount of links on articles, the amount of Vettel links are probably overkill here. I will remove some. TylerBurden (talk) 14:17, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
 * @TylerBurden thanks, appreciated TVKR (talk) 13:47, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Length
Please do not edit-war to remove tags without addressing the issues they identify. As noted, this article is too long and would benefit from being condensed or split. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:17, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

 * Why is it too long? How come you are the only one who seems to think so? Should we split each Formula One season into seperate articles? The article is detailed, since clearly people have put in a lot of work into it, but it still appears well structured enough to be easily navigable. Something that isn't improved by adding a drive-by tag to the top of it. TylerBurden (talk) 02:21, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

 * It is too long because it is over 15 thousand words of readable prose and is extremely detailed; see WP:AS and WP:SS. Removing the tag simply makes that problem harder to address - it obscures it without solving it. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:28, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 * So it is your personal opinion that it is too long, and you think drive-by tagging it will solve it? Sorry but I disagree, both with the length and your solution. If you can't identify any specific issues other than a vague "it is too long because this generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply guideline says so" then I don't think cluttering the article with a tag is productive. TylerBurden (talk) 03:21, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

 * It is your personal opinion it is not too long. The difference is that the applicable guidelines support the assessment that it is too long, and additionally as a GA it is expected to adhere to the GA criteria which include those guidelines. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:28, 1 August 2023 (UTC) Although given the amount of unsourced content present its GA status probably merits reassessment either way. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:29, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 * And you still haven't identified any specific issues, or offered any solutions on how to solve them other than add a tag that makes it even more "difficult to navigate" for readers. A 20+ year career in notable high level motorsports means the article needs to be a certain length in order to cover the subject. This isn't the only article you have tagged either, you have tagged numerous countries and even History of Europe (the latter in which you actually did work to solve the alleged problem at least). Isn't it pretty common sense that the bigger the topic, the more article length is needed? Perhaps sometimes blindly following style guidelines isn't the best solution for every article. As for GA, I couldn't really care less about it, reassess all you want. That would probably end up in some actual improvement rather than a drive-by tag. TylerBurden (talk) 03:38, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

 * the bigger the topic, the more article length is needed might be a convincing argument for something like History of Europe - not an article like this. The length here results not from need but from exceedingly detailed descriptions of individual races. Converting those to a high-level summary would be a great place to start, and would also help to cut down on the massive amount of unsourced material here. But if you're unwilling or unable to help with that, then leave the tag so someone who is can find it, rather than simply seeking to paper over the problem. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:51, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 * So it seems clear you have some minimalist approach to Wikipedia content, that's how you feel and I have a right to disagree with you. I see no reason to "leave a tag" that ironically clutters the article more while complaining about the article being hard to read, that no one is going to actually deal with, probably because they don't agree. One editor's strong feelings on cutting content on articles shouldn't mean readers across numerous articles are greeted by an obstructive tag, which does exactly what it is complaining about. It is not an urgent issue, if it is an issue at all, unlike for example bigger issues that might warrant such tags. This whole thing is petty and unnecessary. TylerBurden (talk) 05:05, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree with here. Overly long, excessively detailed articles which do not suit our broad audience are a common problem among WP:WikiProject Motorsport. This is an issue which has also come up at Talk:McLaren recently. I believe it is time to take this discussion beyond article-level, possibly at WP:Village pump. ―  "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  05:35, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Could be, anyway I appreciate @Nikkimaria recognizing a specific issue and doing some work to reduce the overly detailed and sometimes unsourced race details, rather than simply leaving the tag. TylerBurden (talk) 07:02, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Kimi Räikkönen


text:
Talk:Roland Ratzenberger

Untitled
I would prefer a less graphic/sickening description of the accident —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ncrosty (talk • contribs) 10:06, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Bit late but wikipedia is not censored and shouldn't be censored. see WP:NOTCENSORED Tamoraboys (talk) 01:43, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Karts
Regarding the sentence "He began in karts at 7 winning the FIA CIK at only 13 years of age" - what exactly did Roland win at 13 years of age? The "FIA CIK" is (as I understand it) a governing body, not something a driver can win. If it means he won the World Karting Championship, then this article would suggest he didn't. DH85868993 03:24, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm, this was only just added and it was badly written, so I'm going to remove it until we get a reference. Cordless Larry 19:36, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:SimtekS9411994.jpg
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Senna.
As it stands I think Senna's Death the day after Ratzenberger's has been written into the article too much in a way which is slightly disrespectful. The opening of the article makes it seem like his most notable feat was dying the day before Senna so I'm taking it out of the header.(Morcus (talk) 03:08, 18 February 2011 (UTC))
 * I disagree. There's nothing in the wording that suggests it was Ratzenberger's most notable feat, although sadly it is what he is most famous for. It's important to the lead paragraph to provide context for his accident, in my opinion. I'll leave a link to this discussion at the WP so others can have thir say. I've reverted your arbitrary removal of a succession box, a removal on the apparent grounds that you didn't like it. Removing one of a string of succession boxes is unhelpful. Bretonbanquet (talk) 12:13, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The thing that trivialises the opening sentence is the lack of a comma between the words "driver" and "who". Without the comma is makes it sound as though his only notability is his death; with a comma it implies that his death was a notable event in the life of a man who was notable for being a racing driver. Once you add that in, the following clause referring to Senna establishes why his death was particularly notable.  Pyrop e  16:34, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

When I removed the box it didn't have a predeccessor or sucessor on my computor, which is why I removed it. I still think it's disgusting to list it as if it were an acheviement and don't see that the order in which these sportsmen died is note worthy enough. Just to confirm why I removed it though, it was only because it appeared on my computor with just Roland Ratzenberger in the middle and noone else listed, why that happened is beyond me but I think that given those circumstances there didn't seem need for discusion.(Morcus (talk) 07:02, 19 February 2011 (UTC))
 * Point taken about why you thought the box was broken, but there's no suggestion that death is an achievement - it's simply a method of putting these events in chronological order for ease of navigation. This is an encyclopedia, and it isn't part of its function to tiptoe around tragic events. Regarding the lead paragraph, I suggest a re-insertion of the Senna clause, along the lines of what Pyrope said. Senna's death is notable in the context of Ratzenberger's and vice versa, and to pretend otherwise is ridiculous. Bretonbanquet (talk) 12:48, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid I have to agree with Morcus, the co-incidence of Ratzenberger's death and Senna's death is given undue prominence. Items of a co-incidental nature, even when famed, are still essentially trivia. Senna's death had no bearing on Ratzenberger's death, except in how it was perceived in aftermath, a false effect this lede is encouraging. If anything the co-incidence works in the other direction because Ratzenberger's death and Barrichello's accident were, according to anecdote, weighing upon Senna. The accidents themselves were not connected, 24 hours apart and at different points of the track.
 * I have no problem with Senna being mentioned in the article lower down, just not in the lead. Senna's death did not define Ratzenberger's life. --Falcadore (talk) 00:19, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I think that's reading too much into the whole thing. I think it's very notable that Ratzenberger's death occurred at a meeting at which another driver died. If it were trivia, then it would be left out of the article altogether, which would be verging on manipulating the facts. There's nothing in the lead that suggests Senna's death defined Ratzenberger's life - that's a gross exaggeration and a synthesis of the text. Without wishing to speak ill of Ratzenberger, it's hard to argue against the fact that his death was more notable than his career, which with the best will in the world, was not a particularly notable one before it was sadly cut short. It's a notable fact that his death was part of the most tragic weekend in F1 history, and it's unencyclopedic to ignore that and distance his death from that weekend. Bretonbanquet (talk) 01:00, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I also don't have a problem with Senna being mentioned in the introduction (in fact, I think he should definitely be). Perhaps the problem is that the lead is currently very short, which gives the appearance that the Senna mention is undue. If the lead were to be expanded to properly summarise the article, then it would seem more proportionate. Cordless Larry (talk) 01:44, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

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Crash image.
Ratzenberger's crash is an extremely important event with a large section of the page dedicated to it. There are multiple iamges of the crash available through wikipedia commons and I beleive one should be included. An image of the crash was orginally present, it was removed then reinstated with a justification that it has encyclopedic value (which i agree with) however the image was later removed by an IP address edit with zero justification present. I know that many people find the image objectional however wikipedia is uncensored (see WP:NOTCENSORED). If anyone has good reasons that it should be included other than it is ojectional (which is not a good reason on this platform) then they should post them here and see if consensus can be reached otherwise if there are no other reasons i think I will re-instate the image after giving people some time to debate. Tamoraboys (talk) 01:49, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Roland Ratzenberger


text:
User:CrazyCar

Hey I'm Car. I'm new to Wikipedia.

Please check out my site to learn more about me. CarPerson's World! And please sign the guestbook!

Thanks, --CrazyCar 22:45, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)Car

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PALASM

PALASM is an early hardware description language, used to translate Boolean functions and state transition tables into a fuse map for use with Programmable Array Logic (PAL) devices introduced by Monolithic Memories, Inc. (MMI). The language was developed by John Birkner in the early 1980s. It is not case-sensitive.

The PALASM compiler was written by MMI in FORTRAN IV on an IBM 370/168. MMI made the source code available to users at no cost. By 1983, MMI customers ran versions on the DEC PDP-11, Data General NOVA, Hewlett-Packard HP 2100, MDS800 and others. A widely used MS-DOS port was produced by MMI. There was a Windows front-end written sometime later.

title: PALASM


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Talk:Lance Reventlow

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title: Talk:Lance Reventlow


text:
Talk:Peter Revson

Error in Info Box: The 1974 South Africa Grand Prix was NOT Peter Revson's last race
The Info Box for Peter Revson states that his last race was the 1974 Grand Prix in Johannesburg. This statement is incorrect, because Revson was killed in a PRACTICE RUN for the Grand Prix. The Grand Prix was held after his death.

I don't know the date and location of Peter Revson's last race, but it wasn't in Johannesburg in 1974.

Anthony22 (talk) 01:02, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I have made the necessary corrections to the infobox and results table (and other associated articles). Thanks. DH85868993 (talk) 01:53, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The infobox now uses "last entry" and not "last race". Given that he entered the 1974 South African Grand Prix and was killed in practice shouldn't it be changed back? And the race results matrix changed to PO (practice only) SSSB (talk) 15:29, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * As I understand it, Revson was killed on 22 March 1974, at a test session a week ahead of the Grand Prix (which was held on 30 March 1974), i.e. not during a practice session which was actually part of the race meeting. 1974 South African Grand Prix says "the Shadow team withdrew from the race", so I think it's correct for the race to not be included in the infobox stats, and for the corresponding cell in his race results table to be left blank. But I'm happy to be corrected if my understanding is incorrect. DH85868993 (talk) 22:03, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * In that case he should be removed from the results table at 1974 South African Grand Prix for consistency. Becuase that article implies that he was entered the race but this one implies the opposite. If he was entered into that race then the last entry should reflect that - even if he was killed before the event (although PO wouldn't apply in his results table, something else would be put in) Does anyone have access to info to suggest he was/wasn't entered? SSSB (talk) 10:26, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Finished second vs. Success
stop edit warring over this minor technicality and discuss it on the talk page rather that behaving like hot headed toddlers. SSSB (talk) 07:48, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Background Section Regarding Illegitimate Son
The source page does not mention any of the claims in the section I removed. The citation is a bio of a cartoonist who draws cartoon automobiles and uses the alias Adam Revson. Based on the subject matter of the cartoons, it appears the cartoonist is attempting to capitalize on the Revson name by using it as his alias. The source page does not state Peter Revson is this person’s father, it does not mention a paternity suit, nor does it mention he is the last heir to the Revlon empire. I could find no other citations suggesting any of this is true. There is much information online regarding the Revlon family heirs. The statement that this cartoonist is an accomplished artist is opinion. Furthermore, a paternity suit would not be settled 3 years after Revson’s death. WhitefishMT (talk) 02:15, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Revson was a known playboy and fathering multiple children, let alone one which became the subject of a paternity suit is certainly plausible, especially given several, albeit unsubstantiated, internet links discuss an Adam, in some cases, an Adam Revson. Following that tack, it is possible given the nature of these posts Abe the wherewithal of the Revson family, that its entirely possible a settlement, as opposed to actual litigation and adjudication took place, whet taking three years or otherwise, after his death, especially if the claim was made against the estate. Moreover, while Adam Revson is a published illustrator, it appears only one such publication, CARtoons Magazine, is auto related, and a publication per his bio that he first began working for in his elementary school youth. A child would hardly have the opportunistic verve to simply pick the name of a relatively obscure racer to capitalize on what was then, apparently, more of a gopher-type position, rather than artist. Furthermore, while a brief search reveals that an Adam Revson had a documented amateur auto racing career, he has also been involved in numerous independent business pursuits where such a surname would be irrelevant, if not impossible to utilize if not his actual given, or legally changed name, especially where professional licensure instances are concerned. It also appears Adam Revson lived and worked in close geographical proximity to the remaining Revson family in Dutchess County New York and Palm Beach and Martin Counties in Florida. Finally, such illegitimate trysts, children produced therein, requisite monetary settlements, especially when concerning at least one party of immense wealth, often have no distinctly verifiable legal or other paper trails, or otherwise publicly available, verifiable, factual information online or otherwise, usually because of non disclosure agreements, or, simply, to avoid the seemly nature of the facts disrupting an otherwise stolid family history. Thus, in light of the aforementioned, the blanket culling of what information is available to the odd researcher based solely on personal conjecture—incorrect at that—is baseless, without merit, and goes against the very spirit of Wikipedia. Lorelei Wallace, White Plains, New York; March 2022. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1016:B109:D3FE:185F:245:9F41:214 (talk) 21:33, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Flag July 2020
and Please read the actual resolution at [] which states: "There is consensus to use the national flag icon of an athlete in an international competition as a graphic symbol for that athlete for competitions where national flags are commonly used as representations of sporting nationality in the particular sport. There is consensus that F1 is such an international competition and that use of flag icons to represent a driver's chosen nationality is acceptable to represent their participation in an event where they represented that country. There is also consensus that the flags should not be used to represent the driver for other events where they do not represent a specific country or for general use." So no, there should not be a flag in the Infobox showing Revson's nationality. Mztourist (talk) 07:44, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * the flag is under a heading clearly marked as "Formula One World Championship career". This flag is not for "general use" but rather to "represent a driver's chosen nationality...to represent their participation in an event where they represented that country." So I think that this flag should be present. SSSB (talk) 07:50, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I disagree as the resolution states "that use of flag icons to represent a driver's chosen nationality is acceptable to represent their participation in an event where they represented that country", but the flag is just used in the Infobox for Revson's career in F1 generally and not a specific event.Mztourist (talk) 07:58, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * SSSB is correct; the flag is not for general use in any sense. Flags are not used in any racing driver's "person infobox", only the F1 infobox. As is stated in the MOS, use of flag icons to represent a driver's chosen nationality is acceptable to represent their participation in an event where they represented that country. Drivers represent their countries in every Formula One race, i.e. multiple "specific events". The F1 infobox does not cover any event where drivers' countries are not represented, i.e. promotional events or other types of racing where nationalities are not represented. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:21, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I disagree, the flag should only be used to represent the driver in a table of race placings for each F1 event (e.g. 2019 Monaco Grand Prix), but should not be used in a driver's infobox as that is general use, the wikilinked nationality conveys the necessary information and a flag is merely decorative.Mztourist (talk) 03:49, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, you're wrong. It's not decorative. It's used to convey the nationality the driver represented in the sport. This is very clear in cases like Nico Rosberg, who is a dual nationality an literally chose to represent on of them (Germany) in formula one, or Bertrand Gachot, who changed the nationality he represented during the course of his career.Tvx1 18:41, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * No, its decorative here and in the other examples you mention. The guidance is to have flags for races, not the entire sport.Mztourist (talk) 03:05, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Peter Revson


text:
Talk:Jochen Rindt

Nationality
His german wiki states that he is of german nationality but had an austrian drivers license.
 * This is true, due to the jus sanguinis principle he remained a German citizen, while representing Austria in motorsports. And, during his professional career, called Switzerland his home. -91.32.228.27 14:10, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * His mother was austrian. And he moved to Austria when he was a baby. So, I'm not sure he just had an austrian motorsport licence. I think he also had austrian citizenship Woodcote 21:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The article on Austrian nationality law suggests that Austrian nationality didn't exist when Rindt was born, as the country had been annexed to Germany. He appears to have been living in Austria at the end of the war, so he may have 'converted' to Austrian nationality when Austria was re-established. More likely his grandparents would have made the decision, I don't know how much time was allowed to choose German or Austrian nationality. If that did happen, the Austrian nationality law article says he would have lost his German nationality. Also note that if the rules on nationality in F1 were the same then as they are now, which is not necessarily the case, he would have to have held an Austrian passport to represent Austria. 4u1e (talk) 16:37, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Further edits have been made on this subject, which I have reverted. In order to have raced under the Austrian flag, Rindt must have had, at least in some part, Austrian nationality. We will need some real verification shown before any changes are made. Bretonbanquet (talk) 00:36, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Jochen Rindt
The following section is as posted on my talk page Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:13, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

The article FIA Super Licence section Nationality of drivers that the F1 driver infobox links to clearly states that "The nationality that appears on the racing licence is the same one that appears on the driver's passport. This is not necessarily the same as the country issuing the racing licence. A Frenchman living in Germany can race with a German licence, but the nationality displayed would still be French. In order to race as German, the driver would need to have German nationality as well. For drivers with multiple citizenships, the driver chooses one of them to drive for."

Jochen Rindt was a German citizen and is therefore German by nationality. If you want Austria in his infobox you will have to alter the infobox to display racing licence instead of nationality (or perhaps both). It is absolutely correct that Jochen Rindt represented Austria and only Austria during his racing career, but it is absolutely false that he'd ever have been an Austrian national. Therefore to state that his nationality would be Austrian is false. Please alter the in some cases perhaps misleading infobox itself instead of inserting good willing but false informations in the article. Thank you. -134.93.52.128 (talk) 22:34, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * As far as I can see, you have provided no proof whatsoever that Rindt was a German citizen, or that the nationality on his racing licence was not Austrian. The German language article you provided is not sufficient. I can provide a very large number of reliable sources to show that his nationality was Austrian. As you highlight, the superlicence section states that "in order to race as a German, the driver would need to have German nationality as well". Therefore, it's clear that Rindt had at least partial Austrian nationality, otherwise he would not have been allowed to race as an Austrian. The nationality link in the infobox already links to "racing licence", and I believe this is clear. Changes to the infobox require a consensus at the F1 Wikiproject, which is where you'll have to take this if you want the infobox changed. Perhaps you can suggest a reason why, if Rindt was in no way Austrian, why he would have have held an Austrian licence. Furthermore, perhaps you could do it on the article talk page, where this discussion belongs. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:52, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

 * The Aeiou Encyclopedia article exists in several languages, please choose English if you lack sufficient skills in German. The encyclopedia is financed by the government of Austria and counts as a top source about Austrian personalities and other Austria related topics.

 * Your claim about nationality as a condition for racing licence does not exist in the text of the article, it only states that the nationality of the racing licence is the same as the driver's passport, not that the racing licence would be of that country (and often enough it isn't, the Austrian citizen Andreas Zuber representing UAE for example). Zuber has Austrian as his nationality in his UAE racing licence, to change that to UAE he would have to become a UAE citizen.

 * Rindt grew up in Austria and certainly is in some ways Austrian, that's out of the question. However he was not an Austrian citizen and therefore his nationality is not Austrian. This is an encyclopedia, and if the statement is about the nationality of the driver, then it's about the factual nationality of the driver and not what he's considered to have been by the large audience. -134.93.52.128 (talk) 23:22, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

 * Firstly, in case you haven't noticed, this is the English Wikipedia, and no-one here is required to have any kind of skills in German. If available, sources should be in English. That encyclopedia provides no explanation of why Rindt might not have been Austrian, nor does it explain what nationality was displayed on his racing licence, which is what the infobox is concerned with. The text you're talking about also states, as I pointed out, that in order to race as an Austrian, Rindt would have to have held at least partial Austrian nationality. You seem to be ignoring that. Incidentally, Zuber has not raced in F1 - the requirements for an F1 superlicence are different to other types of licences. He would not be able to represent the UAE in F1, as he is not a citizen of that country.
 * You will need to verify in some way that Rindt was not Austrian, or that the nationality on his racing licence was not Austrian. The sporting infobox is concerned with his sporting nationality, which was Austrian. This is incontrovertible. Furthermore, it is best to resolve the matter here rather than continuing to edit the article according to your point of view. Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:38, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

 * A literary source clearly stating that Rindt never had an Austrian citizenship added as requested. -134.93.52.128 (talk) 23:43, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for finally providing a source for your edit. The other source you added is still in German, after you have stated that an English one is available. However, since the F1 infobox is concerned with a driver's sporting nationality, I have corrected it, with a source from the Official Formula One website. Rindt raced as an Austrian, and the F1 infobox will show sporting nationality. The article explains Rindt's background, and you have established that Rindt did not hold Austrian citizenship. This is of no concern to the F1 infobox, for in F1 he was Austrian. Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:53, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It seems fairly clear that Rindt was allowed to race as an Austrian because his mother was Austrian. Had he wished to hold an Austrian passport he could have done so, and presumably this was enough for the motorsport authorities. It seems odd that he had a German passport (if this is true) but refused to race for Germany. Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:59, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

 * There is no guideline banning sources in other languages. The Aeiou encyclopedia page lets the user choose between English and German, the URL is the same so where the link will lead is up to the browser settings of the visitor.

 * No one has ever claimed that Rindt wouldn't have raced as an Austrian, that is what I clearly stated in the edit I made. The point - the only point - made is that Rindt wasn't an Austrian citizen, his nationality wasn't Austrian. As for the nationality it's entirely irrelevant if he represented Germany, Austria, Jamaica or Qatar. There is no such thing as F1 nationality. There is a racing licence and a nationality. Two entirely separate issues even if in most cases the racing licence is from the same country as the passport. Rindt is an exception, not a part of a general rule - it is useless to try to apply the general rule to an exception.

 * Rindt was allowed to race for Austria because he had an Austrian licence. A specific citizenship is not necessary for a racing licence. Rindt could have easily got an Austrian passport if he wanted to, that's absolutely true. He however never chose to do so, could have been Austrian citizen if he wanted to does not equal was Austrian citizen. -134.93.52.128 (talk) 00:11, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

 * I have never said that Rindt was not German, or that he was wholly Austrian. My point is that you cannot represent a country in F1 if you are not partially of that nationality. They are absolutely not separate issues, you are simply wrong about that. There is absolutely such a thing as a sporting nationality. For those drivers with dual nationality, they represent once country, not two, such as Nico Rosberg. He chose Germany, and his infobox shows it. Nelson Piquet Jr. races for Brazil, despite being born in Germany and having a Dutch mother. His infobox shows Brazil. In Rindt's case, yes he had an Austrian licence. He would not have been allowed to use that in F1 if did not have Austrian heritage. That came from his mother. One cannot randomly choose which country one drives for in F1, like one can in other sports such as athletics. You either have to become a citizen of the chosen country, or have some claim of nationality, like how it works in football. I have never claimed that Rindt was an Austrian citizen, and the infobox is not about that. I have claimed, because it is a fact - that his sporting nationality was Austrian. I can see you insist on edit-warring on this page, so I will leave it for someone else to deal with. Having two nationalities in the infobox is not acceptable because Rindt never raced for Germany, and the infobox is not concerned with what his passport said, only his nationality as a racing driver. The fact that you cannot understand that is irrelevant. Bretonbanquet (talk) 00:28, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I see you've also removed a perfectly valid source that you just didn't agree with, and replaced it again with a non-English source (see NONENG) to suit your POV. I would suggest you revert that. Bretonbanquet (talk) 00:33, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * And why are you only interested in editing the English article, adding sources in German, but you leave the German version to show that Rindt was Austrian? Bretonbanquet (talk) 00:37, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

 * The mentioned book does not exist in English, according to the guideline non-English sources are perfectly acceptable - English ones only are preferred when they exist. This applies to one specific source, it does not mean that any English source is more reliable and preferred over any non-English source. A random webpage simply isn't more reliable than a literary title by a serious publisher or another encyclopedia by the Austrian government.

 * I have no POV, and I'm sorry that you even choose to go for personal insults, I consider that to be a very low level of argumentation. It's not a biased argument to state that Rindt wasn't of Austrian nationality if he never was an Austrian citizen.

 * As for the German Wikipedia article, I see absolutely no factual errors in it. It does not claim at any point that his nationality would have been Austrian. It states that it was the wish of Rindt's grandfather that he retained his German citizenship but drove with an Austrian racing licence, which is true. Rindt represented Austria and only Austria. For his racing career it is entirely irrelevant if he had a German citizenship or not. It is relevant only then, when someone does claims about his nationality - no matter how great champion for Austria he was, and he was truely a great one, his nationality never was Austrian. In true life out there this does not matter, we celebrate him as an Austrian hero, but encyclopedias are only about facts and facts only. -134.93.52.128 (talk) 01:22, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Firstly, I was not referring to the book source, but the encyclopedia source, which still shows as German. I am well aware of the validity of book sources. You have not addressed the fact that you removed the source I added, without any explanation.

Secondly, I'd like you to retract your accusation that I personally insulted you and engaged in a low level of argument. I never once accused you of bias. Wikipedia requires you to WP:Assume good faith. What do you mean, you have no point of view?? So why are you here?

Thirdly, the German article says Rindt was an Austrian racing driver of German-Austrian descent, does it not? So why do you not allow that on the English version? Here the previous version didn't even claim he was Austrian. You changed it from "German-Austrian" to "German". You appear to be contradicting yourself. Furthermore, the German version clearly shows an Austrian flag under Rindt's photo. Do you not consider that this strongly implies he was Austrian? You clearly understand that citizenship is not connected to the country someone represents, so all you need to do now is understand that the infobox is solely concerned with his F1 career. It is not a biographical infobox, it is an F1 infobox, and the only flag / country required is Austria, the country for which he raced in F1. The link explains what "nationality" means in this case, that is why the link is there. This has come up before with other drivers and this was how it was resolved. I don't know how else to explain it to you. Bretonbanquet (talk) 01:43, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

 * 1. The encyclopedia is in English. Please click the button over the article where it says English.

 * 2. I am only interested in facts, not to promote this or that. I don't have a point of view - I'm interested in questions that are strictly yes or no. The citizenship of a person is one such question. I find it unsuitable for an encyclopedia to offer points of view, there are other much better forums for that. Encyclopedias are about facts, facts, facts.

 * 3. I have no problems with Rindt being an Austrian race driver, I didn't even include the category for German F1 drivers, only his nationality wasn't Austrian. Personally my years abroad have made me a bit this and that, but it does not mean that I would have several nationalities. In the German Wikipedia article it clearly states that Rindt was an Austrian race driver (Österreichischer Rennfahrer) and that he had a German nationality (Deutscher Staatsbürger), this is correct. There is also a pretty Austrian flag but important: without any claim that it would stand for nationality. The only problem here is the claim that his nationality would have been Austrian. That's the wrong claim. It is severed by what is stated in the article where the link leads to: according to that article (correctly) the racing licence and nationality are two separate issues. -134.93.52.128 (talk) 02:38, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

 * P.S. There are no partial nationalities. You don't have a partial passport, either you have it or you don't have it. During the time Rindt was still alive obtaining a dual citizenship wasn't even legal in Germany or Austria. To obtain a racing licence from, say, Austria you do not need to be an Austrian citizen. The article 110.2 of the International Sporting Code of FIA states that the national federations are allowed to grant licences to the citizens of other countries if the applicant resides permanently in the country of the national federation receiving the application. This was the case with Rindt when he received his Austrian licence. -134.93.52.128 (talk) 02:38, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * 1. Why not just post the link in English?
 * 2. The infobox does not mention citizenship, nor does it offer a "point of view". You still seem to misunderstand the purpose of the infobox. Of course you have a point of view, otherwise you would not be here. Having a point of view is not the same as having bias. You do not seem to have retracted your accusation that I insulted you.
 * 3. So if we have two statements - a) Rindt was Austrian, and b) Rindt's nationality was Austrian - you consider these two statements to be entirely different? Really? So why doesn't this article say he was an Austrian racing driver? You changed it to German, even though you've just said here that you're happy for it to say he was Austrian. Your view that the flag does not represent nationality is hard to understand. What do you think it represents then? What is it doing there? I say again, that the "nationality" link in the infobox refers only to his sporting activity, as explained. But you don't understand that.
 * 4. That is utterly wrong. Millions of people have split nationalities. If you have two parents from different countries, you have a split nationality. If your mother is French and your father Spanish, you are quite reasonably French-Spanish. In most cases you can have two passports. If you only choose to have a French passport, this does not mean you disown your Spanish heritage or nationality. Not everyone who can claim more than one passport does so. Just because Rindt was not permitted to hold two passports, this does not mean he was consequently 100% German. Citizenship and nationality are not interchangeable terms.
 * With regard to the racing licence point, we know this already. The section of the ISC you quoted is exactly the basis of the text that the nationality link in the infobox points to. If we're going to progress to the ISC, then I'll direct you to Section 112, which states: "All drivers, irrespective of the nationality of their licence, participating in any FIA World Championship event, shall retain the nationality of their passport in all official documents, meetings, information bulletins and prize-giving ceremonies." This would include all the official results bulletins as consistently shown throughout history, and on the official F1 website (a link to which you deleted), in which he is shown as Austrian. It also includes podium ceremonies, during which the Austrian flag was raised for Rindt and the Austrian anthem played. This would strongly indicate that in fact his nationality, as well as his licence, was Austrian after all. Bretonbanquet (talk) 03:38, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

134.93: The nationality in the F1 infobox is exclusively for the nationality a driver competes for in F1. In Rindt's case this is Austrian only and I have removed the section on German nationality from the infobox. The only time two nationalities should appear there is if a driver has competed for two countries (a rare occurence). As it happens, I agree that because the field is called 'Nationality', it may be confusing when a driver's 'real' nationality differs from the one he races under. I'm not sure we can rely entirely on the current ISC, which may not have included the clause about passports in the 1960s. However, I suggest rather than taking an approach for this one article that is different than that taken for all the hundreds of others on Wikipedia, we propose a change to the F1 infobox to call the field something else ('sporting nationality' or 'competed for'). I will start a discussion at WP:F1. 4u1e (talk) 04:54, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Discussion on infoboxes started here. 4u1e (talk) 05:03, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

First Motor Racing's vs. first F1 World Champion
The article makes a statement that Rindt was first motor racing's posthumous world champion. Is there an evidence that in no other category of motor racing there never was a driver before Rindt who achieved the title posthumously? If not (or if there's any doubt) I would suggest changing the article in this respect.cherkash (talk) 00:04, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * There is no doubt. World Championships in motor racing have all been very well documented. Most world championships did not exist in 1970 so the potential for doubt is much smaller compared to todays proliferation of the use of the term 'World Champion'. --Falcadore (talk) 00:26, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Could you list ALL pre-1970 world championships in motor racing?cherkash (talk) 05:09, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Farina, Fangio, Ascari, Hawthorn, Brabham, Phil Hill, Graham Hill, Clark, Surtees, Hulme, Stewart is the entire list from motor racing, which generally only includes cars, but if we include motorcycles the list expands to: Leslie Graham, Freddie Frith, Bruno Ruffo, Nello Pagani, Umberto Masetti, Bob Foster, Dario Ambrosini, Geoff Duke, Carlo Ubbiali, Enrico Lorenzetti, Cecil Sandford, Fergus Anderson, Werner Haas, Rupert Hollaus, Bill Lomas, Hermann Paul Müller, Libero Liberati, Keith Campbell, Tarquinio Provini, Gary Hocking, Mike Hailwood, Tom Phillis, Jim Redman, Luigi Taveri, Ernst Degner, Hugh Anderson, Phil Read, Ralph Bryans, Giacomo Agostini, Hans-Georg Anscheidt, Bill Ivy, Kel Carruthers, Dave Simmonds, Ángel Nieto and - depending at what point the 1970 seasons ended - Rodney Gould and Dieter Braun.
 * That is the entire list. --Falcadore (talk) 06:14, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It is worth remembering that the predecessor of World Rally Championship was still three years in the future in 1970 and the drivers title would not be awarded until Björn Waldegård was recognised in 1979. The now defunct World Sportscar Championship was purely a Manufacturers Championship until Bob Garretson was awarded the first driver's title in 1981. The first World Touring Car Championship was held in 1987, and the World GT1 Championship is brand new, only a season old.
 * While I'm not completely sure about the myriad of Karting titles, the now (temporarily?) defunct World Superkart Championship was awarded to Martin Hines in only 1983. Karting is additionally treated outside from car racing, a different discipline in the same way as motorcycles. Even were we to include Air Racing, the Red Bull Air Race was a creation of the 2000s.
 * It perhaps needs to be mentioned that Rindt's sad statistic is not only incredibly rare, I can not categorically say off the top of my head that it is not unique. --Falcadore (talk) 06:43, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The way I understand your post, is that you are making a claim that no other championship (or series of competitions) in motor racing, and at no time between end of 19th century and 1970, was called a world championship, except for Formula 1 in car racing and world championship in motorcycles (whose champions you explicitly listed). By extension I assume you are making a claim that no other winner of any other motor racing series pre-1970 was ever called a world champion except in F1. I find it not so easy to believe, since there were many semi-local series around the world, and in some regions (notably in North America) there's a tendency to give world series or world championship titles to local series.
 * So did I understand you correctly? And if so, what's the support for your claim? You seem to mention some championships that were not in existence till after 1970, but no mention of any exhaustive list of what was in existence to support your claim. It'd be great if we could provide more precise references to support this claim in the article.
 * cherkash (talk) 06:50, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * That is the basis of your claim? You want to include every made up title run at tiny bull rings with no sanctioning authority whatsoever?
 * Apart from the fact the World Series not only is not World champion, in it's myriad of forms is not treated with the same force as the term world champion - (remembering that Baseball, the most famous usage of the term World Series actually derives from a sponsorship - a publication called 'The World'). Similarly World Cup, used on occasion for Rallying and Touring Cars, has never been treated with the same respect as World Champion.
 * Theoretically I could give two mice motorised matchboxes and run them the length of my desk and call it a world championship and you might claim it as a dispute. It is not Wikipedia's remit to recognise events that the rest of motorsport does not. Credibility is every bit as important as word perfect accuracy. Wikipedia does not elevate the mundane any more than the rest of the world does, it is not the job of Wikipedia to make new establishments, that runs afoul of WP:OR.
 * That having been said - other championships have simply used other terminolgies. Pre-World War II, Formula One was known European Championship, when international series existed. The individual races noted down by history across the Americas and Europe used terminology like International or Intercontinental and were, like NASCAR, more domestically focused with domestic names, or particularly in North America, sponsorship and prizemoney dictated the naming of many prestigious motor racing events. The term Grand Prix, occasinally forcibly translated into English as Grand Prize, rose as the title of choice for the most prestigious races in a nation when international series simply did not exist. Even today the United States is famously domestically focussed in motor racing. NASCAR still does not hold a single event outside its borders despite the ease of travelling short distances into Canada or Mexico with facilities more than able to hold Sprint Cup events.
 * The gathering of many events under a single banner was a relatively rare occurance prior to World War II. The world was a different and much more parochial place prior to the two World Wars. Nations were much more independant of each other and such competitions not exactly commonplace. The Olympic Games is the perfect example of sports not using 'World Championship' terminology.
 * Put most simply, the term World Championship was not a common place term in most sports until relatively recent times. --Falcadore (talk) 07:27, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I do not disagree with your argument or your conclusions. I think it would be useful to summarize what you said here as a brief note to the claim in the article itself, so that the link between Rindt being the first posthumous world champion in F1 and him being first posthumous champion in all motor racing in general became not a stretch of one's imagination (which should depend on reader's pre-existing knowledge), but a fact established by proper references. Would you be willing to make a properly-referenced change in the article?cherkash (talk) 08:00, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

How about if we change it to say that Rindt was "the first posthumous Formula One World Champion" or "the first posthumous World Drivers' Champion" - would either of those be acceptable? DH85868993 (talk) 07:50, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I think this would be a trivial and obvious claim — and the one I tried to avoid making by starting the discussion here, since I think being the first posthumous motor racing champion is a more interesting and wide claim. Hence, I would ask again: would any one of you be willing to change the article to support this claim, rather than making a trivial and banal change of Rindt just being first such F1 champion?cherkash (talk) 08:00, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Ivan Rendall's The Chequered Flag refers to Rindt as "the only driver to be named World Champion after his death", with no specific mention of Formula One. The book refers to itself as "the complete history of motor racing" and covers the period from 1894 to 2007 (in my edition, there are more recent ones, I think). Good enough for a reference? If not, David Tremayne's new book might have something. 4u1e (talk) 20:08, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I think either one of those could be a good missing reference. Could you add it to the article?cherkash (talk) 03:33, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Plagiarism?
Large parts of the current text of this article are identical to parts of the cited reference http://www.uniquecarsandparts.com.au/race_drivers_jochen_rindt.htm I'm not sure what to do about this, but wanted to draw it to the attention of other editors. Ian Page (talk) 20:10, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Le Mans 1965
I've read a story somewhere that the Rindt/Gregory Ferrari underwent a lengthy pit stop early in the race, which should have put it out of contention. When the car was fixed, Gregory found Rindt dressed in civvies and about to leave the circuit; he agreed to continue in tne race only if the pair drove flat-out to the finish. Which they duly did and, thanks to the attrition among their rivals, won. Then the gearbox broke when the mechanics were taking the car back to the pits following the victory celebrations. I can't remember where I read it, though. Any ideas? Mr Larrington (talk) 18:56, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
 * This Motor Sport article mentions the pact and this one mentions Rindt changing into civvies. DH85868993 (talk) 21:04, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I'll amend the article accordingly later today, when I am back from work. Thanks for pointing this out! Zwerg Nase (talk) 08:17, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
 * ✅ Zwerg Nase (talk) 16:38, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Mr Larrington (talk) 22:07, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

title: Talk:Jochen Rindt


text:
Sandra Pupatello

Sandra Pupatello (née Pizzolitto; born October 6, 1962) is a politician in Ontario, Canada. She served in the Legislative Assembly of Ontario from 1995 to 2011 as a member of the Ontario Liberal Party, serving as a cabinet minister in the government of Dalton McGuinty. She did not run in the 2011 provincial election and took a position as director of business and global markets at PricewaterhouseCoopers. On November 8, 2012, Pupatello announced her candidacy for the leadership of the Liberal Party of Ontario. On January 26, 2013, she lost to Kathleen Wynne on the third and final ballot. Afterwards, she returned to PricewaterhouseCoopers. Pupatello served as chair of Hydro One from 2014 to 2015.

Pupatello made an unsuccessful attempt at returning to elected office in 2019 when she stood as the federal Liberal candidate in Windsor West. She placed second behind New Democratic Party incumbent Brian Masse by a margin of 1,922 votes. In the subsequent 2021 Canadian federal election, Pupatello again stood as the Liberal candidate in Windsor West. She again lost to Masse by an expanded margin of 8,032 votes.

Pupatello is married to Jim Bennett, a former leader of the Newfoundland and Labrador Liberal Party.

Early life and career
Pupatello was born Sandra Pizzolitto in Windsor, Ontario. She became politically active by campaigning for Liberal Member of Parliament (MP) Herb Gray in the 1970s. She holds a Bachelor of Arts degree from the University of Windsor (1986). She remained in the city after her graduation, serving as general manager of the city's Rotary Club and executive director of the Essex County Kidney Foundation of Canada. She was also a board member of the Windsor Regional Hospital and Windsor Regional Children's Centre and was president of the Fogolar Furlan Club. Pupatello was named "Italian of the Year" for Windsor-Essex County in 1996, received the Charlie Clark Award for Outstanding Service from the University of Windsor in 2001, and was named "Windsor Woman of the Year" in 2003.

Provincial politics
Pupatello was first elected to the Ontario legislature in the 1995 provincial election, defeating New Democratic Party candidate Arlene Rousseau by 5,526 votes in Windsor—Sandwich. The seat had previously been held by New Democrat George Dadamo, who did not seek re-election. The Progressive Conservative Party won a majority government in the election, and Pupatello entered the legislature as an opposition Member of Provincial Parliament (MPP). During her first term, she served as Official Opposition Critic for Community and Social Services, Children's Issues, Youth Issues, and the Management Board of Cabinet.

Pupatello was co-manager of Dwight Duncan's 1996 campaign to lead the Ontario Liberal Party. Like Duncan, she supported Gerard Kennedy on the final ballot.

Pupatello was re-elected by a landslide in the 1999 provincial election for the redistributed constituency of Windsor West, while the Progressive Conservatives were re-elected to a second consecutive majority government. Pupatello remained a member of the opposition frontbench, serving over the next four years as Deputy Leader of the Opposition and Official Opposition Critic for Health and Long-Term Care.

She was a vocal critic of the Mike Harris and Ernie Eves governments, frequently criticizing cutbacks to child care and other programs. In 1997, she introduced a Private Member's Resolution intended to stop cutbacks to hospital funding. She later criticized the Progressive Conservative government's plans to introduce a private MRI clinic, arguing that it posed a long-term threat to public health care.

In government
The Liberal Party won a majority government in the 2003 provincial election, and Pupatello was again re-elected in Windsor West with a significant majority. On October 23, 2003, she was appointed to cabinet as Minister of Community and Social Services with responsibility for Women's Issues. There was some speculation that she would be appointed Deputy Premier as well, but this position was instead left vacant until George Smitherman's appointment in 2006. Pupatello was spoken of as a possible candidate for the leadership of the Ontario Liberal Party when Dalton McGuinty was to retire in 2006.

Minister of Community and Social Services
Pupatello's most important responsibility in the Community and Social Services portfolio was overseeing Ontario's welfare and disability assistance system. Shortly after taking office, she announced that her government would remove a lifetime ban on welfare recipients who are caught cheating on their applications. Pupatello described the rule as counterproductive, in that many welfare officials were reluctant to bring forward charges out of concern for the extreme punitive consequences. She also announced that her government would take greater steps to find parents who are delinquent with child support payments.

In March 2004, Pupatello announced $2 million to assist low-income Ontarians with increased hydro bills. In June, she announced $10 million to help Ontarians with physical disabilities modify their houses and cars.

Pupatello introduced a 3% social assistance rate increase in 2004, the first such increase after twelve years of freezes. Mechanical difficulties with computers purchased by the Mike Harris government subsequently delayed its implementation, and the province implemented lump-sum payments instead. Later in 2004, Pupatello announced that her government would eliminate a rule requiring welfare recipients to liquidate their education savings plans. Speaking to the media, Pupatello described the requirement as "a dumb rule that works at cross-purposes to what welfare is supposed to be doing for people and their families". In 2005, she announced the creation of the JobsNow program to help welfare recipients enter the workforce.

In January 2005, Pupatello was appointed to chair an ad hoc cabinet committee on the modernization of government.

Pupatello spearheaded passage of the Adoption Information Disclosure Act in 2005, allowing birth records to be released to adoptees. Ontario Privacy Commissioner Ann Cavoukian was a critic of the bill, arguing that it was not sufficiently respectful of the promises of anonymity made to birth parents at the time of adoption. Pupatello argued that the bill was necessary to provide adoptees with information about their personal history, and has noted that it provides safeguards for instances where safety issues are a concern.

In November 2005, the Ministry of Community and Social Services, under Pupatello's leadership, rolled out a series of amendments to the special diet allowance, a program which provides additional funding of up to $250 per month for social assistance recipients to cover the increased costs of certain medically related diets. Groups such as the Ontario Coalition Against Poverty had previously encouraged recipients to apply for the benefit and there had been a significant increase in the number of requests. Pupatello argued that there was a loophole in the program, it was being exploited by activist groups and that the resulting drain on the system needed to be corrected. Several anti-poverty groups criticized the decision. In February 2008, the Ontario Human Rights Commission referred a group of complaints to the Human Rights Tribunal of Ontario, asserting that the 2005 amendments violated the Ontario Human Rights Code. The Tribunal hearings are scheduled to take place in 2009.

Pupatello announced in January 2006 that her department would close Ontario's three remaining government-operated institutions for mentally disabled adults, and assist the occupants with moving into more integrated community facilities. She noted that a "sea change in attitude" had occurred over institutionalization practices since the buildings were first established and that greater integration was now the preferred approach. Previous ministers, including John Baird, had also called for the buildings to close. Critics argued that the plan could put the patients at risk.

In March 2006, the McGuinty government was criticized for a backlog in approving provincial disability allowances. Pupatello described the backlog as "totally unacceptable", and announced that her ministry would work to correct it.

Social assistance rates were raised again by 2% in 2006. Pupatello also introduced policy to allow further money to be 'flowed through' from the federal government's National Child Benefit Supplement in each year since 2003. She was unable to implement a planned removal of the federal tax credit clawback and argued that the deficit inherited from the previous government made this change unviable before 2007.

Minister of Education
Pupatello was promoted to Minister of Education on April 5, 2006, after Gerard Kennedy resigned to run for the federal Liberal leadership. The following month, she announced that her government would give $3 million to the Kids Help Phone service to set up a 24-hour anti-bullying hotline. She also pledged more than $1 million to provide young students with swimming and water survival lessons, in the aftermath of a series of drowning deaths in the Guelph area the previous year.

In late May 2006, Pupatello introduced a strategic high school transition plan intended to reduce Ontario's high-school dropout rate. The following month, she introduced a $50 million plan for teacher training and reduced wait times for special needs programs. She also worked toward solving the vexing issue of the teacher funding formula, a problem that the Liberals inherited from the previous government.

Pupatello also announced a comprehensive plan for changes at TV Ontario, including a greater focus on educational programming and more money for equipment upgrades. The popular Studio 2 program was cancelled, and replaced by a nightly current affairs show called The Agenda. Some opposition politicians charged political interference in the latter decision, but this was denied by both Pupatello and Studio 2 host Steve Paikin.

During the summer of 2006, Pupatello criticized a number of Ontario school boards for failing to balance their books. She appointed a financial adviser to the Dufferin-Peel Catholic District School Board, which was experiencing difficulties balancing its budget. Pupatello also targeted administrative costs in the Toronto District School Board, arguing that the board had the means to balance its books without program cuts. In late August, she appointed two provincial representatives to review the TDSB books.

During a September 2006 by-election Parkdale—High Park, Pupatello engaged in a controversial negative campaign on behalf of Liberal candidate Sylvia Watson. She accused New Democratic Party candidate Rev. Cheri DiNovo of comparing Canada's media coverage of serial killer Karla Homolka to the persecution of Jesus Christ, and suggested that DiNovo was unfit to run for parliament. Many argued that Pupatello took DiNovo's words completely out of context, and opposition politicians accused the Liberals of conducting a smear campaign. The effort backfired, and DiNovo was elected by a significant margin. Pupatello has defended her role in the campaign, saying "If I was presented once again with apparently what is factual and has yet to be refuted and that is sermons that were posted on the world wide web ... I would have exactly the same opinion as I do today".

Minister of Economic Development and Trade
Pupatello was reassigned as Minister of Economic Development and Trade on September 18, 2006, following the resignation of Joe Cordiano. This was generally interpreted as a demotion, although at least one columnist has suggested that holding an economic portfolio could help Pupatello's long-term political ambitions.

Pupatello led provincial trade delegations to Alberta in late 2006 and early 2007, promoting Ontario's business sector to the western province's booming economy. She also took part in a trade mission to India and Pakistan in January 2007, and went on a four-day trade mission to Japan in April of the same year. Her department has also set up a growing number of marketing centres around the world.

Minister Responsible for Women's Issues
In late 2005, Pupatello introduced a program to assist provincial emergency workers in identifying cases of domestic abuse. She has also introduced several initiatives to assist women from low-income backgrounds in entering the job market. She introduced "EqualityRules.ca" in November 2006, to encourage equal relationships between young boys and girls. In the same month, she announced $2.1 million for interpreter services for victims of domestic violence.

Minister of International Trade and Investment
In September 2008, she was appointed the province's Minister of International Trade and Development, which was created with the mandate of attracting new investment in Ontario.

Minister of Economic Development and Trade
In June 2009, she was appointed the Minister of Economic Development and Trade, a new ministry that combined three previous ministries: Small Business, International Trade and Investment and Economic Development.

In June 2011, she announced that she would not seek re-election in the October 2011 general election.

2013 Ontario Liberal leadership bid
On November 8, 2012, Pupatello announced that she was leaving her Bay Street job to seek the leadership of the Ontario Liberal Party. She lost to Kathleen Wynne who subsequently asked her to become Minister of Finance in her first cabinet; Pupatello declined in favour of returning to the private sector.

Hydro One
The provincial government appointed Pupatello to the board of Hydro One, the province's largest electricity company, in November 2013 and subsequently appointed her chair effective April 2014. She was succeeded as chair by David F. Denison on April 16, 2015, but remained on the Hydro One board of directors.

Windsor-Essex Economic Development Corporation
In May 2013, Pupatello was named CEO of the municipally owned Windsor-Essex Economic Development Corporation and occupied that position in addition to her old position at PricewaterhouseCoopers. She resigned in July 2015, despite having two years left in her contract, after months of criticism from some Windsor city councillors who grilled Pupatello over the WEEDC's failure to create jobs in the region.

Federal politics
Pupatello supported Paul Martin's bid to succeed Jean Chrétien as leader of the Liberal Party of Canada. She also supported Michael Ignatieff's bid for the party leadership in 2006.

In 2015, there was speculation that she may run for the federal Liberals in Windsor West in the October 2015 federal election and attempt to unseat NDP incumbent Brian Masse but that didn't eventuate.

Pupatello announced in August 2019 that she was seeking the federal Liberal nomination in Windsor West in the 2019 Canadian federal election. She won the nomination and attempted to unseat incumbent New Democratic Party MP Brian Masse, coming second to him. In July 2021, Pupatello announced her intention to stand for the second time as the Liberal candidate for Windsor West in the 2021 Canadian federal election. She again placed second behind Masse who expanded his margin of victory.

Provincial
All electoral information is taken from Elections Ontario. The expenditure figures cited on this page for all elections after 1995 are the Total Candidate's Campaign Expenses Subject to Limitation, and include transfers from constituency associations.

title: Sandra Pupatello


text: Talk:Takuma Sato

title: Talk:Takuma Sato


text:
Talk:Jody Scheckter

Flag
why the old south african flag? --Severino 10:26, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Can we get the old South African flag replaced please? I don't think it's necessary to use the old one. --nongolos 12:25, 02 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I would have to agree here. I work directly for Jody and he is appalled that the old South African flag is used on his wiki page.
 * He does not want to be associated with the old one. Anyone know who I need to speak to on Jody's behalf to make this change permanent?
 * It is harmful to his reputation to be associated with the old flag and the political ties to it.
 * Why does there need to be a flag at all? 84.21.145.2 (talk) 10:36, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

changed. --Severino 11:00, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Changed back - sorry I didn't see the discussion here first. The reason it was the old one is that the F1 wikiproject decided that the only consistent way to approach flags is to use the flag a driver actually raced under (for example that makes it absolutely clear that Mario Andretti should have the American flag, although he was born in Italy, because he became an American citizen and raced under that flag). That means that for Jody, and for all other SA drivers to date, the correct flag is the old one. It would be slightly odd, to my eyes at least, to show Jody the racing driver under a flag he never raced under. Obviously Jody's still alive, and lives 'under the new flag' now, but the article is almost entirely about his racing career (correctly) and the infobox needs to be consistent with the season racing results, which also use the old flag. 4u1e 07:47, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

hm, it seemed to me that the flag is shown to the "visualisation" of the nationality. in this respect it wouldnt have made sense to use the old one --Severino 13:30, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * But it would be inconsistent with, for example, 1979 Formula One season. Using the new flag there would be anachronistic. Whichever way we go, there will be an inconsistency. The only thing I can suggest is that you could bring the topic up in a general way at WikiProject Formula One. Using the flag a driver raced under is the currently agreed approach, for good reasons. However, if others there agree with your point, we could change the way this is done across the project. Cheers. 4u1e 22:53, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

if have no objection against using the old one after you explained it. however, it could be misunderstood by others the way i did. (scheckter is a living person and his nationality is still south african and RZA now has a different flag. but dont mind, there are bigger problems ;-) --Severino 23:03, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I agree that it will look odd to some, as I say, there isn't an ideal solution. If it becomes a regular issue we'll see whether we want to change this across the project. 4u1e 07:46, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The policy on Wikipedia is actually very consistent (for a change) on issues like this. All sports figures are shown as competing under the flags they were under at the time they competed. Even athletes for Nazi Germany are shown with a swastika flag. Hence Jody Scheckter is listed under the old South African flag, but his son Tomas, currently active in the IRL, gets the new one. Jsc1973 (talk) 08:13, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

 * The comparison to Mario Andretti does not hld water because USA and Italy are different countries and we are not talking about country of birth. I do however accept that Jody raced under the old SA flag. However you note that German Athletes are often shown as with the Nazi Flag. If this is the case the the one with Max Schmeling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Schmeling) is incorrect as it shows the current German flag. Hitler used Schmeling as Nazi propaganda so the Nazi flag would be more appropriate?)

--196.30.245.149 (talk) 18:17, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The use of the flag in Schemeling's article refers to his amateur career, and the medals he won as an amateur (when he actually represented a nation, boxers usually don't). His amateur career ended in 1924, 9 years before the adoption of the Nazi flag. I don't see a single legitimate arguement on this page for not using the historically accurate flag. SSSB (talk) 10:46, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Nationality
Scheckter has been a USA resident for a very long time now (20 years or more, I believe) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Socrates2008 (talk • contribs) 13:12, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * USA resident isn't the same thing as citizen though, is it? If you are right and he does hold US nationality, it would go in the article main text towards the bottom somewhere, rather than in the F1 infobox which is intended to represent the drivers' career. The start of the lead would also be modified along the lines of the Derek Daly article. Don't suppose you could rustle up a reference from somewhere could you? If you can I'll happily add the text to the article. Incidentally, if this is true, it would make the suggestion of using the current RSA flag for Scheckter doubly inappropriate! Cheers. 4u1e 13:17, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Lived in Atlanta for ages - not sure if this is still the case though, as the third article implies potential UK citizenship too!    Socrates2008 13:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree - lived in Atlanta for a long time and looks to be resident in the UK now. But that doesn't make him either a UK or US national. Just ask Mohamed Al-Fayed. 4u1e 18:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * As an aside to this, the article for Jody's brother Ian states that South African nationals were refused entry to Japan in the 70s. Jody's participation in the 1977 Japanese Grand Prix thus implies that he holds (or held) another nationality.--MartinUK (talk) 02:16, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Interesting. Do we have a reliable reference that Ian Scheckter was refused entry into Japan owing to his South African nationality? Whilst this webpage confirms that Japan "stopped issuing entry visas to South African nationals wishing to engage in educations, cultural or sporting activities with Japan" on 13 Jun 1974 (unfortunately it doesn't say if/when this restriction was rescinded), the two references I could find relating to Ian Scheckter's non-participation in the 1977 Japanese Grand Prix (Mike Lang's Grand Prix! Vol 3 and grandprix.com) both just say that Ian Scheckter "had visa problems"; they don't specifically state that he was refused entry due to his nationality (although it's entirely possible, maybe even likely). I don't think we can draw any conclusions about Jody having dual nationality until we know the full details behind Ian's non-entry into Japan. DH85868993 (talk) 01:59, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The ban on South African nationals was in force, and Ian fell foul of it. Jody only got in because he was driving for Walter Wolf, who knew someone at the Canadian embassy who put pressure on the Japanese to let his driver into the country. Nothing to do with dual citizenship as far as I know. Bretonbanquet (talk) 02:12, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Mike Lawrence's "Story of March" says "Scheckter landed at Tokyo airport and was detained because his passport only had a tourist visa. [He] was put on a plane out of the country 24 hours later". Alan Henry's "March" just says 'visa problems'. I've added Lawrence as a ref to Ian Scheckter. 4u1e (talk) 06:58, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Remove old South Afrcian flag

 * Specific text to be added or removed: South African Flag to be removed from his Nationality section

Either to be replaced by the new flag or to have no flag at all. I have read the previous comments about it being the flag in his racing era- but it not an appropriate reflection on him and suggests racism. The flag is placed next to his Nationality- not in a section regarding his racing career.
 * Reason for the change: I work on behalf of Jody and he has requested not to be associated with the old South African flag and wants it removed from his page.

https://www.npr.org/2019/08/21/753074028/court-limits-display-of-south-africas-old-apartheid-flag-citing-hateful-legacy 84.21.145.2 (talk) 10:50, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
 * References supporting change: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-safrica-politics-flag-idUSKCN1VB1AF
 * I don't believe this is something Scheckter has control over - it was the flag he raced under in his F1 career and it is only shown as his racing nationality. The flag is placed next to his Nationality- not in a section regarding his racing career. this is incorrect. The flag is displayed in the infobox in the "Formula One World Championship career" section and the Nationality title links to FIA Super Licence. I disagree it implies any connection to racism or that it reflects poorly on him. WP:NOTCENSORED would be the relevant policy. I can't see how indicating the flag he raced under would be contrary to anything in WP:BLP, indeed, WP:OWN would suggest that this request can't override project consensus. However, I do not have a definitive answer and will consider other users' opinion before I consider declining this request. 5225C (talk • contributions) 12:45, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
 * What "Jody" has "requested" is irrelevant. The notion that the presence of this national flag in this (a historical) context implies someone is racist is ludicrous and untrue. The facts are simple - this was the flag of South Africa during the time he competed as a South African. Any attempt to remove the flag, or change constitutes WP:CENSORSHIP and will not be tolerated. Finally, even if Wikipedia was subject to the rulings you cited (which it doesn't) none of these rulings would be relevant - they target gratuitous displays, it doesn't cover displaying the flag in historically accurate contexts. SSSB (talk) 13:14, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Jody Scheckter