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Talk:Hominidae

Sync between photo and first para
Should the text in first para be in sync with the order of photos? Right now the genera homo has the first picture but is mentioned last!

Protection of this page?
I have given up vandalizing to try and have this page protected. This could be a page that could be vandalized when people who cant vandalize the Human page follow the link that comes to here. I wont ever vandalize again if this page gets protected for users to edit only. 68.191.178.216 (talk) 20:22, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
 * A rather original argument for protection. No, we only semi-protect when excessive and persistent vandalism actually occurs, which doesn't seem to be the case here. Ucucha 20:30, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree, vandalism is not as persistent on this page as on some of the others on my watchlist that have yet to be protected. I can't see a compelling case here. Anaxial (talk) 20:40, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Bili Ape?
Should the Bili Ape be introduced into this article? Just questioning if this would make sound sense.--Senor Freebie (talk) 06:49, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Why? It is currently an unclassified population of unknown ancestry. If it is ever classified, I'm sure it will be someplace in Hominidae, it seems to be too soon for it to be included in this article. -
 * Just checking. Don't know much about them.--Senor Freebie (talk) 06:48, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Is it still unclassified? Unrecognized? Maybe it is still relatively new. I may make bold inclusions of them .--Jondel (talk) 08:49, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Confused by History section
The History section seems to deal only with the Hominina, mentioning other hominids only in terms of their divergence from human ancestry. This is confusing, as well as being incomplete in scope.

Also, the subsection History|Taxonomic history begins: "The classification of the great apes has been revised several times in the last few decades. Originally, the group was restricted to humans and their extinct relatives..." This too is confusing. I suspect it should read "The classification of the family Hominidae..."

Aside from these specific problems This entire section could probably use editing for clarity and completeness, but I'm not familiar enough with the subject to undertake it.

Tapatio (talk) 17:23, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

 * You are right, the first section under History needs a lot of expansion.
 * The reason the taxonomic section starts out the way it does is given in the second sentence: "Originally, the group was restricted to humans and their extinct relatives, with the other great apes being placed in a separate family, the Pongidae." Also read the very first sentence of the article: "The Hominidae (anglicized hominids, also known as great apes)..." For some clarity, read Hominoidea. - UtherSRG (talk) 17:57, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

"Great apes" or "hominids"?
I noticed that recently "great ape" was changed to "hominid" as the plain-language term used in this article for Hominidae, but that these changes were quickly reverted. I understand that there has been some contention about the use of common vs. scientific classification - and in general I am in favor of the use of common names - but I thought that the change from "great ape" to "hominid" was a good one. I would argue that "great ape" is rather imprecise a synonym for Hominidae because it is often understood to exclude humans, and that "hominid" is both a precise synonym and commonly understood. It may be less commonly used than "great ape" but it is also less subject to misunderstanding, and in any case its meaning is made clear at the beginning of the article. Tapatio (talk) 17:59, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I propose reverting to the revision dated 07:21, 26 March 2010 by Ano-User, to use "hominid" rather than "great ape" throughout as a plain-language term to refer to Hominidae. If anyone has objections (or concurrences) please voice them. Tapatio (talk) 18:03, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

 * There's some lack of precision in the use of "hominid", too, because of the fluctuation of the membership of this family. I prefer the article remain using "great ape". - UtherSRG (talk) 06:54, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

 * I don't really understand that rationale, as the term "great ape" is even less precise and has also changed, and arguably more. "Hominid" has changed in meaning only to reflect the change in the classification of Hominidae. "Great ape" initially referred to what were previously classed as Ponginae - all non-human apes. My point is that the terms were not originally synonymous, and the meaning of "great ape" seems the more ambiguous of the two. I'm not against the term "great ape" evolving in meaning, but in actual practice it is most commonly used to refer to the non-human apes, which is actually linguistically useful, even though it may not relect evolutionary relationship as we now understand them. The only purpose I can think of that recommends the use of "great apes" is to smack the reader in the face with a realization of their biological relationship to the other apes, and I can appreciate that emotionally. I suspect that there are people that might be offended by being included among the apes, and my personal feeling is that they need to get over that. I think, however, that the priority here should be clear factual explanation, and that the terminology we used should be that which is is most likely to be correctly understood.Tapatio (talk) 15:12, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

 * In the beginning of the article itself, it says that "hominid" is the anglicized version of "hominidae," and is apparently a synonym for "great ape" (although I believe that the genus Homo is somewhat different from the apes all together). "Hominid" seems to better correlate with the name of the article than "great ape" does, even though great ape is mentioned as a synonym and in a foot note.  This is precisely the reason why I changed the names from "great ape" to "hominid" in the sub-sections.  Whatever the "fluctuation of membership" within the family Hominidae is, I'm sure naming it another, more precise, synonym (such as "hominid") won't take away that membership, linguistically or genetically.   -Ano-User (talk) 15:37, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

 * See Hominoidea (particularly the history section) and hominid. The term "great ape" has expanded only to included the human branch, while "hominid" used to only be the human branch.... the more common term has changed less, while the more specific term (hominid) has changed more and is used in multiple ways, including the older concepts. - UtherSRG (talk) 17:00, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

 * As I have argued concerning the name change of the article from Great Ape to' 'Hominidae, the term hominid would be of more educational use than "Great Apes" would be since the article itself admits in note 1 that "'great ape' is a common name rather than a taxonomic label and there are differences in usage." This is why I changed the words "great ape" to "hominid" before it was reverted back to "great ape."  The Hominid article is well written, but it fails to cite any recent changes regarding the modern usage of the term.  The Hominoidea article is redirected to the Ape article, but uses the terms "hominid" or "hominoid" frequently, even though hominid'' is used by some to refer to humans and our closest fossil ancestors.  -Ano-User (talk) 04:37, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't know, maybe I'm used to the old terms and am a little bit more old school, but contentions are still coming up about the classification of humans as great apes. I feel that "great ape" should be liberally used within the article, and also within the other related articles. I'm not a supporter of the Great ape personhood movement, although I am in full support of its intention to preserve great apes. Taking the Hominid article's advice, "the meaning of the taxon changed gradually, leading to the modern meaning of 'hominid,' which includes all great apes." -Ano-User (talk) 04:37, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

 * At UtherSRG's suggestion, I took a look at the Hominoidea article (which, incidentally had been moved by UtherSRG to Ape). It also includes humans among the apes - which I really have no problem with - but it does so in a way that is less likely to confuse the reader. In fact, it clearly states that: "Due to its ambiguous nature, the term ape has been deemphasized in favor of Hominoidea as a means of describing taxonomic relationships." The real problem with using "great ape" is that "ape" has been understood since Old English to exclude humans. That is still its common meaning, even among those who understand the current views about the biological relationships involved. I think this is unlikely to change anytime soon, because the "non-human ape" category remains linguistically useful. Most of the ambiguities about "hominid" arise from the recent (and perhaps ongoing) shakeups in the classificatory system, but that is a problem with the term "Hominidae" itself. It may not have been a good idea to suddenly dump all of the great apes into the category that had previously been used for what is now classed as a subtribe within that family (hominina). In spite of those problems "hominid" remains a commonly used Anglicization of the subject of the article, and I think the best term to use here. Tapatio (talk) 12:53, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

 * I would not argue that the Hominoidea article should have remained called Hominoidea, but it is good that the Old English meaning of "ape" is noticed within the articles itself. However, I would argue that the placement of the genus Homo as synonymous with "apes" is controversial.  Until recently, the genome of Humans and chimpanzees was thought to be 98% to 99% identical, per Mary-Claire King (1973), but a 2006 study shows that the commonalities are reduced to only 95% to 94%; "close but not that close" [emphasis added] http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=human-chimp-gene-gap-wide.
 * But that is just one out of several, more obvious, differences that I would like to point out when I get the time. In general, I liken the comparison of chimps and humans to that of the Felidae family of the feliforms in which different genera are able to interbreed, but chimps and humans, who are like wise in different genera (but of hominids), cannot.  Apparently, DNA is "sticky" between similar species and more similar genera within the Felidae, but not in Hominids.  Why is this?  (that is a rhetorical question)  -Ano-User (talk) 03:09, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

 * Actually, we don't really know whether chimps and humans can interbreed. Eric Kvaalen (talk) 16:48, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

 * Humans have one fewer pair of chromosomes in the diploid complement. That makes it a non-starter, despite the overwhelming similarity of our genomes. Humans and neanderthals did interbreed. I'm curious if anyone knows anything more about Paranthropus.88.111.239.43 (talk) 09:11, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

I don't see any controversy. It is undisputed that great apes in common usage doesn't include Homo, and it is also undisputed that Homo is a genus of Hominidae. I don't see a problem. Nobody is placing "the genus Homo as synonymous with 'apes'", I don't know what you're talking about. --dab (𒁳) 12:41, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

 * To clarify, dab, are you weighing in for or against the use of "great apes" as a synonym for "Hominidae"? Tapatio (talk) 17:30, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Oreopithecus Classification
This article states that Oreopithecus is classified in the subfamily Homininae as an extinct human ancestor. However, since the Wikipedia article on that genus says that hypothesis is highly contested, I clarified that point in this article. Since I am not a scientist, someone with the appropriate experience should take care of this problem.-constantthinker —Preceding unsigned comment added by Constantthinker (talk • contribs) 06:18, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Sahelanthropus
I removed the indication "hominid status highly problematic" from Sahelanthropus. First, because the critics to the hypothesis that S. is closely related to humans are, at best, not better supported than the hypothesis itself ("controversial" would be a more appropriate expression); second, because if the critics are right, S. would still be related to the gorilla, thus belonging to Hominidae. 217.162.217.199 (talk) 21:08, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I think "hominid" is also sometimes (and confusingly) used to refer to Hominina (everything that is closer to humans than to chimps), reflective of an earlier definition of Hominidae. Ucucha 21:26, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Use of the term "great ape"
The article continues to violate WP:NPOV in presenting and adopting only one use of the term "great ape", namely the use which includes humans. Any accurate dispassionate survey of the literature will show that the common names "ape" and "great ape" are used both to exclude and to include humans. Different sources use the terms differently, and the same source is usually inconsistent (including Dawkins – see User:Peter_coxhead/Work_page and Benton – see the last paragraph of Primate). The note about different usages is itself biassed: "Subtly, it may seem to exclude human beings" – "Subtly" is an editorial comment, and it does not "seem" to exclude human beings: in one of the two usages it does exclude human beings. Both usages need to be presented clearly in the article. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:04, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

In previous discussions, the relative merits of the common names "Great Apes" vs "Hominid" have been debated and both have been found to have issues due to variable meanings at present, and even more varied meanings historically. I agree that Note 1 could use a slight clean-up to be more cut and dry (which I just made). As for the bulk of the article, I think more discussion is warranted. Karatorian (talk) 17:28, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

 * This article about Great Apes is referring to the classification of Hominidae, not the different uses or meanings of the term "ape." Taxonomically, humans fall under this group because of the similar genetic and anatomical features we share with gorillas, chimps, and orangutans. That is what taxonomy is about, grouping organisms into groups based on genetic and anatomical similarities. Thus, humans are great apes no matter the colloquial usage of the term "ape" or "great ape" Cadiomals (talk) 05:36, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

 * The term "Hominidae" is a taxonomic one. The taxon is clearly circumscribed in current usage (although this has changed so old uses need to be mentioned). So there is no doubt that humans belong to Hominidae, as currently defined. No up-to-date reliable source suggests otherwise. "Great ape" is not a taxonomic term. Some authors now use "great ape" to mean "hominid". Others don't. Most are inconsistent as per User:Peter_coxhead/Work_page. The usage and thus meaning of "great ape" cannot be established by reference to taxonomy; common names are not regulated by any code of nomenclature. So in respect of common names a Wikipedia article must maintain WP:NPOV. It doesn't matter what I think or what you think or what anyone else thinks, only what usage can be sourced. Peter coxhead (talk) 08:08, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Humans and orang-utans
An alternative minority viewpoint is that Homo diverged from a common ancestor with Pongo perhaps as early as 13 million years ago, while Pan is more closely related to Gorilla''. This alternative is supported by characteristics uniquely shared between humans and orangutans, such as dental structure, thick enamel, shoulder blade structure, thick posterior palate, single incisive foramen, high estriol production, and beard and mustache. There are at least 28 such well-corroborated features compared with perhaps as few as one unique feature shared between humans and chimpanzees. It is widely believed that these physical features are misleading, but an alternative possibility is that orangutans have undergone more genetic change than humans and African apes have since their divergence from the common ancestor. If this had happened, then the apparent genetic similarity between humans and chimpanzees would not necessarily be due to a close evolutionary relationship. [...] This hypothesis has been proposed as an explanation as to why early hominids, such as the australopiths, not only look more like orangutans than either African ape, but also share characters unique to orangutans and their close fossil relatives, such as a thickened posteror palate and anterior zygomatic roots. [...]''

The obvious solution to this observation is that the most recent common ancestor of Homo and Pan (and the MRCA of Homo, Pan and Gorilla) resembled Pongo more than Pan morphologically or phenotypically, which would make the pongid characteristics in humans primitive traits, rather than derived traits (which indeed would point to a closer evolutionary relationship between Homo and Pongo). Therefore, not only humans, but also chimpanzees and gorillas are highly derived and have all changed from their more orang-utan-like form only relatively recently, according to this solution. In fact, that modern chimps are highly derived seems to be the current consensus in primatology, anyway. This would also help explain the difficulty of finding early chimpanzees or chimp ancestors in the fossil record.

Interestingly, Chimpanzee, referring to Dawkins' The Ancestor's Tale, and Homininae suggest the possibility that chimps and perhaps even gorillas branched off from the line that led to Homo more recently than commonly thought, specifically that they derived from australopithecines. This would require either than australopithecines were not really fully bipedal, or that chimps and perhaps also gorillas lost obligatory bipedality again in their recent evolutionary history, which would reinforce the idea that they are more derived than is assumed by laypeople at least. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:49, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

 * This is one of many examples which could be quoted where the current scientific consensus is to prioritize molecular evidence over morphology. Rearguard actions are being fought in some quarters, but I haven't seen any evidence of them prevailing. Peter coxhead (talk) 18:15, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

 * But remember that I said if the (most recent) common ancestors of chimps and humans (the group called Hominini) resembled orang-utans more than chimps, the contradiction between molecular evidence and morphology would disappear. It's simply the automatic assumption that the common ancestors of the Hominini looked and were in many ways just (or at least more) like chimps which is worth questioning.
 * This video, which highlights similarities between bonobos and humans, serves as a powerful reminder that chimps are not that "primitive" (as in basal), but also highly derived, i. e., evolved: they didn't stagnate for millions of years, either. And the way that bonobos are capable to learn to use and even produce stone tools like the earliest Oldowan stone tools from 2.5 million years ago reinforces the thought that chimps might in fact have branched off later, since according to conventional thinking, only hominans, i. e., (possibly) australopithecines and, in any case, members of Homo used such tools.
 * Alternatively, the molecular clock results are broadly correct, and superficial morphological or behavioral similarities are either shared retentions (for example, the basic ability to use and produce stone tools could have been present in the ancestors already, but they did not produce stone tools at that point, or none that are preserved or which we recognise, or perhaps they just didn't because they didn't feel the need, or they didn't come up with the idea on their own – one wonders if bonobos have ever fashioned stone tools in the wild) or convergences (for example, bonobos could simply have evolved the intelligence needed to learn to use and produce stone tools in parallel to the human line). But it is sure interesting to notice that bonobos seem to have cognitive capabilities at least equal to australopithecines, and underscores that they should not simply be thought of as an exact representation of what our common ancestors were like. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 20:56, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

potential resource
(Opinion) Fearing a Planet Without Apes by John C. Mitani (professor of anthropology at the University of Michigan) published August 20, 2011 New York Times Also on coverstory of December 12, 2011 issue of The New York Times Upfront "A Planet without Apes? why our closest animal relatives may be on the road to extinction", pages 6 & 7. 97.87.29.188 (talk) 23:21, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Not NPOV Tag dated October 2011
I was wondering if you could be more specific about this tag. What parts do you find not NPOV? Is it possible to localize this tag? The reason I ask is that, of all WP articles I have looked at, this one has come the farthest. When I last saw it a few years ago whether or not man was a great ape was consuming the entire discussion. Any changes made, any tags put on, were being almost immediately reverted. Now I find it has got a whole lot more scientific. We have finally got around to distinguishing scientific from non-scientific terms. It looks to me like previously unhoped for progress has been made. So, I do not think the whole article deserves the tag. Perhaps you could give us some pointers as to which parts you consider non-NPOV? It seems to me based on past resolutions and progresses it might be possible to resolve this question. If it has already been resolved then someone forgot to take off the tag.Dave (talk) 02:57, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

 * I agree with you that real progress has been made recently. When the tag was put there (a) the article had more POV-pushing over the use of the term "great ape" than it does now (b) when sensible changes were made there were immediate reversions. However, it seems to me that there is still a strong attempt to impose the terminology "great apes" = "hominids", rather than reflect the usage of relevant sources. Why does the article begin with the statement "The Hominidae (... anglicized hominids, also known as great apes), as the term is used here"? Why "as the term is used here"? This is a bit of a give-away that the article is not reflecting usage but imposing it. So I think that we aren't there yet. Peter coxhead (talk) 22:09, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Eating cooked food for a million years?
The Physical Description section states “Human teeth and jaws are markedly smaller for their size than those of other apes, which may be an adaptation to eating cooked food for more than a million years,” but the cited evidence (at least that available online) does not support this claim. The article cited is about post-pleistocene changes in human dentition. The Pleistocene ended a little over 10,000 years ago, so the evidence points towards a change in diet 10,000 years old rather than 1,000,000 years old. Maybe someone can find some better evidence for the million-year assertion? Or perhaps the million year figure should be deleted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.70.28.126 (talk) 23:31, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

The post-pleistocene changes in dentition were a result of the radical change in human diet at that time - namely, the introduction of cereal grains as a staple (tooth decay first appears at this time)

Regardless of how long humans have been cooking their food, i do not think an encyclopedia article should be citing this as a wild speculation for why human teeth are smaller than those of other apes... Firejuggler86 (talk) 13:19, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

We've been eating meat since much farther back than the Neolithic
I know you don't know me from Eve, but I'm a bit nonplussed that this article presents human consumption of meat as only having occurred since the Neolithic, when we all here know better than that. I was going to change it, but I don't feel like dredging up sources that Wikipedia would find acceptable and don't feel like getting into a holy war with the vegans. Can someone please take the time and effort, if you're bored and have nothing better to do, and correct this egregious oversight?

By the way, chimpanzees hunt also, which I notice was not mentioned either.

This sort of thing is why Wikipedia is blown off as a credible resource. 69.47.97.116 (talk) 22:22, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Meaning of "chimpanzees"
To be consistent with the Ape article, the genus Pan should be described as "chimpanzees and bonobos". The term "pygmy chimpanzee" instead of "bonobo", which would justify the use of "chimpanzees" to cover both species, isn't favoured nowadays as can be taken to suggest that bonobos are not a separate species but just a subspecies or other variant of the chimpanzee. Peter coxhead (talk) 23:16, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest that, if this is the case, the article chimpanzee really needs to be changed, since that's what we're currently linking to in the page. If the chimpanzee article is changed, I have no problem. But at the moment, this article is explicitly stating that bonobos both are, and are not chimpanzees (by linking to another article that says they are the same, and then, later in the same sentence, saying that they're not). What we need is consistency, and we don't currently have that. I have no particular preference for which consistent version we use, but I really dislike the idea of enforced inconsistency. Anaxial (talk) 18:30, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree that it's not straightforward, which is why I suggested discussing on the talk page. Given that Wikipedia should describe not prescribe, the Chimpanzee article should explain both uses: the older usage in which chimpanzee = the genus Pan, i.e. the common chimpanzee and the pygmy chimpanzee; the modern usage in which chimpanzee = common chimpanzee with bonobo = pygmy chimpanzee. But I don't see that in articles like Ape or Hominidae we need to explain both uses; in these articles I would suggest keeping to what seems to be the preferred modern usage. Alternatively both could be explained. I can't see any justification for just using the older terminology. (This is a good example of the advantages of using scientific names as article titles, as WP:PLANTS prefers.) Peter coxhead (talk) 01:51, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * If that's the case, shouldn't we link to common chimpanzee, instead of to chimpanzee, since that's the sense of the word we're using? The current text is still inconsistent, and I don't think that's a good idea. I'd also suggest starting a Move discussion on chimpanzee, (and possibly also common chimpanzee) if you think the page has the wrong title for its subject matter. Anaxial (talk) 19:13, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, if you want to argue that all the other articles need fixing before using the "and bonobos" form here, I don't agree, but it's a rational argument. I just wanted to be sure that your reversion was discussed. Peter coxhead (talk) 20:19, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

We need to change the classification scheme
Wikipedia currently employs a classification suggested by Mann & Weiss (1991) which has not gained wide currency. Specifically it is very uncommon to include Pan in Hominini. A more widespread taxonomy is that by Wood and Richmond 2000. Wood in Blackwell Companion to Biological Anthropologyrefers to the classification by Bradley as a consensus classification (it excludes Pan from Hominini):
 * Bradley, B. J. (2008) Reconstructing Phylogenies and Phenotypes: A Molecular View of Human Evolution. Journal of Anatomy 212: 337–353.
 * Stanford, Allen and Anton's 3rd edition of "Biological Anthropology" (2012) also uses this classification. It seems clear that Weiss and mann's classification has become obsolete and should not be used as the basis for our articles.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:33, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

New Classification
I propose we use this "consensus classification" based on Bradley 2008, and represented by Wood (2010) in the Blackwell Companion to Bio. Anth. page 66. Superfamily Hominoidea
 * Family Hylobatidae
 * Genus Hylobates
 * Family Hominidae
 * Subfamily Ponginae
 * Genus Pongo
 * Subfamily Gorillinae
 * Genus Gorilla
 * Subfamily Homininae
 * Tribe Panini
 * Genus Pan
 * Tribe Hominini
 * Subtribe Australopithecina
 * Genus Ardipithecus
 * Genus Australopithecus
 * Genus Kenyanthropus
 * Genus Sahelanthropus
 * Genus Orrorin
 * Genus Paranthropus
 * Subtribe Hominina
 * Genus Homo

As more recent peer-reviewed research has surfaced since the early 2000s, I think it is best to write this and related articles according to that research. I support a re-classification be done to this article, as well as to the Homininae article. -Ano-User (talk) 05:17, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * To Hominini as well, come to that, because, while it does mention the scheme above, as written that article implies that it is a non-standard classification, with little support as yet - something that is no longer true. In summary, I support the change, which I understand reflects the current scientific consensus, if not necessarily those of older published sources. Anaxial (talk) 06:21, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, please make this change! We need to use the current consensus classification, not an out of date one. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:49, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Great, I am happy we all agree. It would be excellent if we can all work together on this, because it is a lot of work and affects a large number of articles. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:34, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * We are also going to need a new family tree illustration.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:13, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I've made a start on this page, changing the definitions (although, of course, now the links point to pages that say the opposite...) There may be further editing needed, of course. Doing so reminded me, though, that, in my view, the page still gives too much weight to the Red Ape Hypothesis (that orangutans, not chimps, are humanity's closest relative). I also note that the section on evolution is really only about the Hominini, not the purported full range topic of the article. Anaxial (talk) 20:19, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The Orangutan ancestor hypothesis has been completely discredited by genetic studies. It should have no weight at all, it isn't even mentioned in current textbooks. I've removed that part. It goes all the way back to when it was thought that Ramapithecus was a hominin ancestor, and not just a female sivapithecus. ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:24, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Quite. Didn't want to change it myself, having been previously involved in a debate on the subject. Thanks. Anaxial (talk) 20:32, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Might also need a citation on the claim that a 'hominina' is a member of the Homininae; I've seen 'hominine' used in this sense several times (although also as a synonym for hominin), following standard practice of subfamily members being "-ine", but I've never come across that one, and can't immediately find any use of the term in that way on Google, either. Anaxial (talk) 21:05, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * You're right. I was basically guessing on that one. I'll remove it.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:10, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Gigantopithecus
OK, I have your attention now. I am looking for someone in the scientific community to think about adding a criticism section under the Gigantopithecus article. I looked at all the references and none appeared to be from the scientific community. I looked on the internet and could not find anything from the scientific community. It just doesn't appear to be something recognized in the scientific community. They even have a subclass called Ponginae which includes Pongo (Orangatans) and the rest, including Gigantopithecus, that are extant. Are those true extant genera (word used on that article page)? Thanks. Mylittlezach (talk) 17:24, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure what you mean by the references at Gigantopithecus not appearing to be from the scientific community. One is from Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, and another from the American Journal of Physical Anthropology. A quick web search has also turned up these: Journal of Human Evolution, Chinese Science Bulletin, and Quaternary International, all with papers in the last three years. Having said that, no it isn't an extant genus... but then I can't find anything in either article that says it is. If there's something that gave you that impression (or that I simply failed to see), then I'll be happy to change it. Or you could change it yourself, if you like. Anaxial (talk) 20:04, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Anaxial, for the info. You have provided more current links then I was able to find. In my defense, I was a bit tired. Where I said 'extant' I meant to type 'extinct'. I got to Gigantopithecus by way of an article I read about Bigfoot (which I don't believe in) on the internet and link after link eventuallly led me to Gigantopithecus, so I just wondered if it was rather bogus or not. Mylittlezach (talk) 04:48, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Hominidon
This term is used in Transdimensional Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (page 16) to refer to Hominids. It's really only used once and then they just revert to calling them hominids in the rest of the section.

The understanding seems to be limited though. In spite of being published in 1990, it claims that the hominid classification includes Australopithecus, Robustus and Erectus but that it excludes Homo Sapiens (including Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon Man) as well as being different from the Ape (or Great Ape) classification, because they give separate statistics for the Chimp/Gorilla/Orangutang and don't seem to understand that these are also hominids. Ranze (talk) 15:49, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Ape
Ape extinction should be included as a section in the main ape article. If the section ever got too large then it would make sense to create a subpage like this, but as it stands it's poorly referenced and lacking any depth. Jack (talk) 15:47, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * what exactly is the sourced content to merge? this POV pushing soapbox should have been deleted long ago. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  16:24, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * To be fair the content you removed was correct, yeah it's a bit soapbox-y, but it could be worked into the ape article with a few more sources. Apes are definitely threatened by the bushmeat trade, and human conflict does interfere with conservation efforts. Jack (talk) 17:18, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Inconsistencies
There are a number of internal inconsistencies that should be resolved regarding Great Apes:

 * 1) The introduction paragraph states there are "four extant genera", but goes on to list *five* items (1 chimp, 2 bonobo, 3 gorilla, 4 human, and 5 orangutan). That's confusing.
 * 2) The page on Apes notes that there are Greater and Lesser Apes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape#Greater_and_lesser), with three accepted Great Apes. However, the Great Ape page states there are "four", not three.
 * 3) The pages should explain the relationship between lesser apes (gibbons) and the bonobos, as it is not clear.
 * With regard to the first point, the first line of the article does state that chimps and bonobos belong to the same genus. So there are, indeed, four extant genera: 1 chimps and bonobos, 2 gorillas, 3 orangutans, 4 humans. On the second point, I agree that there is some lack of clarity, since bonobos are not specifically mentioned in the section you refer to. That's due to a difference in terminology (mentioned in note 2 to this article), although I agree it would be better if we were consistent. I'm not sure what you're referring to with the third point, as it looks clear to me - could you elaborate? Anaxial (talk) 21:23, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Ah! I missed the lack of a comma. I've fixed this by using a bullet list (when listing more than three items, a bullet list is often used). Regarding the third point, the great apes are listed on the hominidae page as including gorillas, chimpanzees + bonobos, orangutans, and humans. But Bonobos are nowhere to be found in the hierarchy that shows the family tree for the great apes from the Apes page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apes#Greater_and_lesser). I recognize that chimps+bonobos are both classified under pan, but the hierarchy tree (at a glance) should also list bonobos so as to be internally consistent with not only its own page, but with this page. Thangalin (talk) 22:57, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

 * The issue is the common name for the . It's agreed that the two are now often called "chimpanzee" and "bonobo", but the genus is called "chimpanzees". The HTML comment which has been left in the article says: "These are the common names for the four living genera in Hominidae. Please don't change it to include a mix of species and genera common names (for example, by adding bonobos). See the classification below. Ordering is alphabetical." So precisely what the comment says not to do has just been done (and, what's worse, the comment has been left). Peter coxhead (talk) 13:57, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Incorrect human population?
Sorry I'm in a rush to submit an assignment, but currently the world population clock referenced under the "conservation" section of the article says that the world population as at 23rd of August 2013 was 7.3mil, while the population clock now (25th Jan, 2015) says it's about 7.29mil, surely the population hasn't declined over that period??? Can someone check this along with the other estimates? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.211.230.147 (talk) 10:50, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I wonder if the PRB updated it's estimate sometime in the last 16 months. I've adjusted the article. - UtherSRG (talk) 14:27, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
 * According to the data sheets, the September 2013 population was 7.137 billion, and August 2014 was 7.238 billion. —PC-XT+ 03:57, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

There is an RFC that may affect this page
There is an RFC that may affect this page at WikiProject Tree of Life. The topic is Confusion over taxonomy of subtribe Panina and taxon homininae (are chimps hominins)?

Please feel free to comment there. SPACKlick (talk) 16:39, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 7 May 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was not moved. --BDD (talk) 20:13, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Hominidae → Great ape – To be compatible with the ape article and common usage of the name. There are 2 options to maintain compatibility: either move this article to great ape or move the ape article to Hominoidea. Editor abcdef (talk) 09:22, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

 * Oppose "Common usage" of the name is divided, but in non-specialist sources, "great ape" is mostly used to mean "Hominidae minus humans", so the two titles are not equivalent. Peter coxhead (talk) 16:30, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment: the optimal title seems to be in plural, i.e. "Great apes" (per the subsection below). By far, more books talk about "Great apes", not "Great ape", "Hominoidea", or "Hominidae". Khestwol (talk) 18:54, 7 May 2015 (UTC))
 * Oppose The two terms do not, in most sources, mean the same thing, so I don't think it matters which is more popular. The book search in the section below, for example, seems to show that the majority of books use the term "great apes" to mean "non-human hominids", which is not the subject matter of this article. Anaxial (talk) 20:14, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
 * For those of you who oppose, do you think ape should be moved to Hominoidea? "Ape" has the exact same attitude as you stated (most books state "apes and humans"). Editor abcdef (talk) 21:43, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

 * Oppose There are multiple definitions/circumscriptions for all the terms involved (including "hominid", which is far more common N-Grams than great ape/Hominidae). Hominidae seems to be the least confusing, most precise term for the subject of this article. Another article/term that is in the mix is pongid; should that be moved to "great ape" instead? And ape (which has two circumscriptions, one as a folk taxon, and one scientific) should be moved to Hominoidea which is more precise. Plantdrew (talk) 23:28, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree. This is a classic example of where misguided insistence on an imprecise "common names" destroys WP:PRECISION. Peter coxhead (talk) 09:36, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Hominidae → Great apes – Per WP:COMMONNAME. "Great apes" is by far more common per Google Ngram. Per Google Books search, "Great apes" get about 125,000 results, but "Hominidae" gets only about 58,200 results. "Great apes" appear to be more than twice as common as "Hominidae", which makes it the optimal title for this page. Khestwol (talk) 18:54, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Proposal for "Great apes"

 * SUPPORT move to "Great apes". Per WP:COMMONNAME, per above. Khestwol (talk) 18:54, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose Titles of animals are not in plural, for example human, not humans, despite "humans" being the second word in the article. Editor abcdef (talk) 21:43, 7 May 2015 (UTC
 * Support WP:UCN,WP:JARGON, and this is a plural topic, being a group -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 03:00, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
 * A group? So is ape, simian, and primate (notice that the scientific order name is actually Primates). It is an accepted Wikipedia policy to use singular article titles for animals. Editor abcdef (talk) 06:07, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

 * Oppose The plural would be totally against policy and practice. For animals, in addition to the examples above, see also Animal, Mammal, Bird, Lizard, Dinosaur, etc. For plants, see Plant, Fern, Oak, Moss, etc. Peter coxhead (talk) 09:34, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 6 June 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No move after three weeks and a relisting period. I considered several issues in this closing. For one thing, the same move was proposed a month before, so I took into account the consensus against moving from that discussion. For another, while it was shown that "great ape" is a more common term overall than "Hominidae", several editors brought up that not all sources for the former necessarily include everything covered by "hominidae", or this article (namely, it may exclude humans and their ancestors). I note that helpfully showed that the term "hominid" has changed in meaning over time, but it's less clear that there continues to be variance in reliable sources for "hominidae" to the level that exists with "great ape". Regardless, there was insufficient support for the proposal to justify moving the article. Cúchullain t/ c 14:26, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Hominidae → Great ape – Please take a look at talk:Ape and talk:Ape/Archive 1, if anyone hasn't done so. All the requested moves from ape to Hominoidea or Hominoid has been opposed and rejected. And almost all the people who opposed cited common name. What is the reason that this article should stay at Hominidae and shouldn't be moved to great ape, and the ape article should stay at ape and shouldn't be moved to Hominoidea? --Relisted. Cúchullain t/ c 19:15, 18 June 2015 (UTC) Editor abcdef (talk) 03:59, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Strong Support per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:RECOGNIZABILITY, and easy searchability. "Great ape" also does refer to humans, scientifically speaking. Khestwol (talk) 05:07, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
 *  Comment Support: per WP:UCN & WP:JARGON; per the recent arguments of Calidum, Randy Kryn, etc; per reliable sources; per consistency... Cesiumfrog (talk) 05:18, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose on the grounds that the two terms have different meanings in common usage, as discussed when we had the same debate three weeks ago. Anaxial (talk) 06:27, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Did you even look at the talk page of ape and it's archive? "Ape" and "Hominoid" also has different meanings in common usage. And yet, most people oppose moving the ape article to Hominoidea/Hominoid. Editor abcdef (talk) 07:02, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

 * Support per being a Great Ape, per common usage (I've never heard anyone use the term 'Hominidae' in person, I'm "hanging out" with the wrong crowd), recognizability (as mentioned) and per consistency with the 'Ape' article. If ten thousand great apes typed at ten thousands typewriters (with lots of ribbons) for ten thousands years you'd get.....Wikipedia (or WQikipedia). Randy Kryn 11:10, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Support – Use of the English language is required. This unpronounceable foreignism should be removed, under the banner of common usage. RGloucester  — ☎ 14:13, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Support, common name, English, and unambiguous other than the choice of whether to include humans or not, which point is irrelevant. 209.211.131.181 (talk) 14:58, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Support--- "Great ape(s)" is much more the recognizable term, therefore the most accessible and researchable for Wp readers---(this choice is a very close parallel to the decision for "Ape"). Jbeans (talk) 15:42, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. ONR (talk) 20:42, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME ("the name that is most commonly used"); see this N-Gram search, the most commonly used name is hominid, not great ape. And the term "great ape", as most commonly used, refers to non-human hominids. I haven't checked every incoming link to great ape or Great Ape, but all of the ones I've looked at all are explicitly referring to non-human hominids. Please search the internet for "great ape"; results are about conservation (humans aren't endangered), zoos (humans aren't in zoos), possibility of language (human language is well established), personhood (human personhood is a tautology), etc. Humans are indeed in the same family as the other great apes, but as commonly used, "great ape" doesn't include humans. There are hundreds of incoming links to Hominidae and hominid, and few dozen to great ape. If Wikipedia is to have an article titled "great ape", then pongid should be moved to that title. Plantdrew (talk) 16:37, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Question, are you suggesting move to "Hominid"? Khestwol (talk) 16:52, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Great apes (not great ape) wins by more than an ape's nose in an n-gram search between 1970 and 2008 (n-grams end in 2008). By this measurement the common name is 'Great apes' (reduced in this context to the singular). Randy Kryn 20:15, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment Pongid shouldn't be moved to great ape since it's an outdated paraphyletic term, nowadays that clade only includes orangutans. Editor abcdef (talk) 21:30, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
 * This isn't a dictionary (so we hardly need a page for every obsolete taxonomic term). According to ITIS and MSW3, pongidae is now a synonym of hominidae. Merge it. Cesiumfrog (talk) 14:07, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

 * Oppose per common name and because it is not the same. It would be absurd if Wikipedia didnt have an article on this central scientific concept.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 16:55, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment: As per COMMONNAME, the proposed title is more common than the current title. They are scientifically the same, as per reliable sources. Khestwol (talk) 17:01, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I have seen no evidence that great ape is more common in terms of frequency. Certainly not in the literature. And no, they are not the same since as the foot note points out there are differences in usage. They are also historically different.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 17:14, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The taxonomic databases (ITIS, Mikkos) explicitly record that the common name for hominidae is the great apes. It is the same.
 * Maunus, I'm surprised, you seem to be objecting because one species has been added to this taxon compared to how it was described in literature pre-dating evolutionary cladistics. We already have fauna title guidelines, in addition to those of the Mammal and Primate wikiprojects (which specify sources to prefer for ensuring the taxonomic nomenclature is consistent and up-to-date). It is totally routine for families to have species added or removed by taxonomists over time. This isn't some unusual isolated issue, so we've already established standards and precedents on how to deal with it. Yes, whenever this happens it technically means that some of the old literature was using the same words to describe slightly different groups of organisms (much like the meanings of other words shift over time), you just have to deal with it. Yes, technical names are slightly more precise than common names, yet WP policy still dictates to choose the latter for titles (with the precise technical name in the lead sentence). Cesiumfrog (talk) 14:07, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

 * "If Wikipedia doesn't have an article on the central scientific concept"? The thing is that no one is proposing the scientific concept to be deleted, if this succeeds, nothing will change except for the title and probably the lead sentence. Editor abcdef (talk) 21:31, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

 * Oppose - because the meaning of the current scientific term is precise and because the proposed name has not been shown to be more common in reliable references. Imc (talk) 19:59, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
 * See my n-gram post above, or just click here, at least from 1970 to 2008 Great apes was more common. Randy Kryn 20:19 8 June 2015 (UTC)
 * That is explained by the fact that "great apes" is used primarily in zoological literature about non-human great apes - i.e. in the sense that is different from Hominidae. Great ape as synonymous with hominidae is hardly in the literature on primate evolution.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 20:26, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
 * What literature are you talking about? Does this source not talk about human "great apes"? And so do most of the reliable literature on the subject. Khestwol (talk) 09:30, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
 * According to wikiproject:primates' primary taxonomy ref's sole-author, The recognition that we as a species are not phylogenetically separated from other animals, but are nested within the primate group known as the Great Apeas, is no longer controversial. Goodman (1963) proposed on this basis to include the great apes (orang utan, gorilla and chimpanzee) in the family Hominidae, a view revived by Groves (1986) and increasingly widely adopted since then. Increasingly, too, the vernacular term 'Great Apes' has come to be used as a pure synonym for Hominidae, so that humans are also 'Great Apes'. [uncontroversally.] (sim. ) Cesiumfrog (talk) 14:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

 * Consistency The 'See also' section of this page lists these related Wikipedia titles, whose existence add weight, per consistency, to the proposed name change: Great ape language, Great Ape Project, Great Apes Survival Partnership, and Kinshasa Declaration on Great Apes. I'll add two more to the section, Great ape personhood and Great ape research ban. Another point for consistency is the name of the template Great ape language. Randy Kryn 11:11, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Yet all of those are about non-human hominids, which suggests that "great ape" is not synonymous with "hominid". Srnec (talk) 13:28, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
 * All those pages also say, in their leads, something about "non-human great apes" or words to that effect, indicating that if a page is about the overall subject then the subject is "Great Apes". The articles linked concern issues relevant to how human great apes are treating the other great apes (protections, declarations, language projects, etc.), not that the name 'Great ape' is exclusive to those individuals being protected or worked with. So the concept of Wikipedia consistency still seems to hold. Randy Kryn 13:47, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

 * Comment---The scientific term, Hominidae, is not precise; its scientific meaning has (significantly) migrated since the 1960s---from (then) being an exclusive club for humans only, to now accommodating the membership of all those great apes it once excluded; this migration is discussed---in context of its handle hominids---by Robin Dunbar, as here:
 * "Conventionally, taxonomists now refer to the great ape family (including humans) as hominids, while all members of the lineage leading to modern humans that arose after the split with the LCA are referred to as hominins. The older literature used the terms hominoids and hominids respectively"
 * and by the Australian Museum, as here:
 * "Current use of the term ‘hominid’ can be confusing because the definition of this word has changed over time. [PARA] The term ‘hominid’ used to have the same meaning that ‘hominin’ now has. It was therefore a very useful term to designate the line leading to modern humans and was used when referring to various members of our human evolutionary tree. [PARA] ‘Hominid’ has now been assigned a broader meaning and now refers to all Great Apes and their ancestors. This new terminology is being used in many scientific journals already, and it is only a matter of time (but possibly many years) before everyone catches up to using the new term."
 * and, especially re this decision:
 * "The problem for students and teachers is that a lot of texts still use the old system and many internet sites also haven't caught up, even those of many reputable scientific establishments. So students/teachers will need to be aware that 'hominids' can mean two different things depending on how up-to-date a reference is with regard to incorporating these taxonomy/classification changes."
 * So, the scientific term Hominidae is imprecise for same reason as the common term Great ape(s) is imprecise: they both now represent a concept that has significantly changed its meaning and usage.
 * (I continue to Support of this move (see above) for the reasons specified there.) Jbeans (talk) 16:28, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

 * Oppose. The same editor proposed the same move a month ago and it was closed as "not moved". Why is this being proposed again now? Srnec (talk) 13:28, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I can't speak as to what was in the mind of the editor who opened this requested move, but it seems to me to be because a move request at Ape occurred in the meantime, and that request showed support for the common name. Having one article entitled 'Ape' and a closely related page titled 'Hominidae' (my spell-checker doesn't even recognize the name) may have brought to the fore the question of inter-site consistency. Randy Kryn 13:55, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose, per ·maunus · snunɐɯ·. Best, FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 22:50, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Oppose We've been over this again and again. The English common name "great ape" is widely used to exclude humans (even by Richard Dawkins – see User:Peter_coxhead/Work_page). "Hominidae" is not. Wikipedia's role is to reflect sources not dictate usage. Peter coxhead (talk) 07:18, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Support but with preference for Gorrilas chimps and people are all have similar levels of genetic difference one from another and we all share genetic content suggestive of a recent common ancestor. Great Apes GregKaye 07:23, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment: At least it has been made clear now that the precision argument (that "great ape" is not precise but "Hominidae" is precise) is invalid, thanks to comments above by Jbeans. Khestwol (talk) 16:06, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Note:Move discussions

 * If anyone is interested for input there, other move discussions like above for deciding between rare names vs common English names are open at Haplogroup R1b (Y-DNA)'s talk page, Haplogroup R-M420's talk page, Haplogroup R-M207's talk page, and Haplogroup R-M17's talk page. Although the discussions have been listed on the Talk pages of relevant Project pages, yet only one editor (other than me) !voted in three of the requests, and only two editors (other than me) voted on the last one. Please help us reach a consensus with more input. Thank you in advance. Khestwol (talk) 16:22, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Hominidae is a specialized name but it is not rare or uncommon.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 21:32, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, by comparison Hominidae is less common in usage than "great ape(s)". Also, Hominidae is far less recognizable/familiar in general, as compared to "great ape". Khestwol (talk) 17:15, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Date range conflict
Hominidae says 7–0 Mya, but Homininae (subfamily of Hominidae) says 8–0 Mya; it is clearly impossible for both age ranges to be correct. Either the lower bound for Hominidae must be 8 or more, or that for Homininae must be 7 or less. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  00:45, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Consistency with ape
If this article title should stay as Hominidae, shouldn't the title of the ape article be Hominoidea? The article structure of the two are not much different. Editor abcdef (talk) 02:39, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Why does 'chimpanzees' exclude bonobo?
The article body sometimes appears to use the term chimpanzees to include the common chimpanzee but not the bonobo. Examples:"Gorillas and chimpanzees live in family groups of around five to ten individuals... In both chimpanzees and gorillas, the groups include at least one dominant male..."Bonobos don't live in family groups. And there are no dominant bonobo males. Bonobo groups do, however, include at least one dominant female. Recommendations: Nothing too controversial here. --Dervorguilla (talk) 10:21, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
 * In much of the article body, the term bonobos and chimpanzees or the term common chimpanzees can be substituted for the term chimpanzees.
 * Any passage that shows a counterfactual bias against female superiority can be corrected or deleted.

Then just add "common" before "chimpanzees" in any problematic instances.

Personally, when i see "chimpanzees," my assumption is the opposite of yours -- that it does *not* include the bonobos. e.g. the statement that humans are chimps closest relatives and vice versa, is incorrect to me, for excluding bonobos..the passage you quoted does not, because it makes no mention of bonobos. That doesnt mean i have a "bias against female domination," it simply means that our understandings of what "chimpanzee" means are different Firejuggler86 (talk) 13:43, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

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Picture.
The picture is bad. --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii 02:39, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

This picture needs to have a non-minority group otherwise it just looks racists!

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New Picture
The new picture is good, but it says nothing about the conspicuous stuffed ursid. Octaazacubane (talk) 17:32, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

The picture needs to be changed to not include a minority group because it looks very racist! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.243.46.6 (talk) 16:57, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

 * It is not a minority group. 60% of the Earth population lives in Asia. 193.69.88.226 (talk) 22:50, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Humans are the largest primates
Gorillas at their largest are 6 ft. the average is 5.6, yet humans out size them in length (although this depends on population). Even by mass many humans outweigh gorillas! --Bubblesorg (talk) 03:48, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
 * The average weight of a healthy male gorilla is over 150 kg, which is certainly heavier than a typical healthy male human. And that, I would say, is the appropriate guideline to follow. Anaxial (talk) 07:27, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
 * sure, but still humans like Jon Brower Minnoch out weigh them--Bubblesorg (talk) 15:53, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter. When we talk about size we need some statistically significant basis of comparison. For every huge human I can bring you a (hypothetical but probable) huge gorilla. Lythronaxargestes (talk | contribs) 22:39, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

IPA is broken
The IPA should end in /ai/ not /i:/ (approx.). I tried to fix it but I got an error messsage. Can anyone fix this ? CecilWard (talk) 13:39, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
 * It's actually the correct American pronunciation. Having said which, I see no reason not to include the British English pronunciation as well (which is as you say), but I can't find a suitable citation to support it. Anybody have one? Anaxial (talk) 17:20, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:38, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Pierolapithecus catalaunicus (Pau) a l'Institut Català de Paleontologia Miquel Crusafont.JPG

Distribution of great ape species Map
Are people from Gabon gorillas?

I'm kidding, but the layout/wording is pretty weird. Synotia (moan) 13:06, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

First image
I think the first image that shows the bonobos, chimps, Gorillas, orangutan and humans and so on should change the human to multiple different ethnic groups and not just the SEA mother and son, because of negative connotations others here have mentioned. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EmilePersaud 22:15, 2 July 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by EmilePersaud (talk • contribs)

Links in infobox image caption
This discussion was created per WP:BRD in order to find consensus and prevent an edit war.

In my edit, I wikilinked the four hominid genera listed in the image caption in the infobox. Sumanuil reverted it, saying that it constitutes overlinking. However, I argue that my edit concurs with MOS:DL, which states that "[a link] may be repeated if helpful for readers, such as in infoboxes [...]". –CopperyMarrow15 (talk | contribs) Don't be afraid to ping me! 19:20, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

 * It's been an issue in the past. People would link every instance of the common names, and I've gotten a bit overzealous. As long as that doesn't happen, I'm not going to edit-war.  -  Sumanuil  .  (talk to me) 22:58, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay. Thank you for responding. I am restoring my edit now. –CopperyMarrow15 (talk | contribs) Don't be afraid to ping me! 00:15, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Changed picture
I altered the infobox image to better match the general image. Though File:Happy children.jpg is a charming picture, I felt something more serious was needed. I added two public domain portraits of adult humans of different sexes and races, both with a direct unsmiling gaze. The individuals are Queen Ranavalona III and Charles Darwin. --- Robina Fox (talk) 21:31, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

The caption still reads "one row per genus", however. Which would imply they are different species. Can you pick one maybe? I'll fix the caption for the time being.  -  Sumanuil  '''. ''' (talk to me) 01:42, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I reverted this change. A color picture is much better than black and white. Additionally, the "one row per genus" pattern and one picture for each species was nice; the replacement version, even with the caption changed, implies that the two 'races' and sexes are different species, which is what's done in the other rows. We don't separate the other species by sex or by minor regional differences. I fail to see why the existing picture showing a smile (a normal human behavior) is a problem; it wasn't excessive or forced-appearing.
 * If people want to replace the human picture, fine, but it should be in color, and only one picture for one species. Crossroads -talk- 19:57, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay, fair enough, but I would still maintain the picture should show non-smiling humans in order to enable a more direct comparison of the features of different species. Perhaps plainer clothing too. Robina Fox (talk) 21:57, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Bonobo is the common name
Bonobo is clearly the common name for Pan paniscus & chimpanzee is the common name for Pan troglodytes. Yes, the bonobo was referred to as the pygmy chimpanzee, but that has largely fallen into disuse because the two species do not differ that much in size & their behavior is so clearly different. Peaceray (talk) 22:42, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Peaceray (talk) 22:54, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * See Talk:Hominidae above. "Chimpanzees" is the common name for the genus and there are two species in the genus, the chimpanzee and the bonobo. No one is saying that "bonobo" isn't the common name for one of the species. - UtherSRG (talk) 13:58, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * See Talk:Hominidae above. "Chimpanzees" is the common name for the genus and there are two species in the genus, the chimpanzee and the bonobo. No one is saying that "bonobo" isn't the common name for one of the species. - UtherSRG (talk) 13:58, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Hominidae


text:
Collins John

Collins John (born 17 October 1985) is a former professional footballer who played as a forward. Born in Liberia, he represented the Netherlands national team.

John notably played in the Premier League for Fulham where he notched up 23 goals in 111 appearances, in all competitions, in a five-year stay at Craven Cottage. He also played in the English football league for Leicester City, Watford, and Barnet, in the Eredivisie for FC Twente and NEC Nijmegen, in Belgium for K.S.V. Roeselare, the United States for Chicago Fire, Azerbaijan for Gabala FC and in Iran for Mes Sarcheshmeh F.C.

Club
John started his professional career at Dutch first division side FC Twente as a 17-year-old, going on to score 11 league goals during one-and-a-half seasons combined. He was signed by Fulham on 31 January 2004, cited by manager Chris Coleman as a way to expand attacking options in the future. He signed for a fee thought to be in the region of £600,000 where he was introduced at Loftus Road by John Collins, his reverse namesake. His debut for the club came as a substitute for Mark Pembridge against Chelsea in a 2–1 defeat at Stamford Bridge on 20 March.

Following an auspicious start, John scored 11 league goals in 2005–06, despite only starting 15 of the 37 in which he appeared. With a further two goals in other competitions, he was Fulham's top goalscorer that season. A goal against Middlesbrough on 20 November 2005, a volley from his weaker foot, was later to be named "Goal of the Month" by the BBC, and was in the running for "Goal of the Season".

John started six of the first seven Premiership games of 2006–07, but then lost his place and started only three more times in 2006. Coming on as a second-half substitute, and having had two goals disallowed earlier in the match, he scored his twentieth league goal at Manchester City, in November 2006.

John signed for Leicester City on 23 October 2007 on a three-month loan deal. He made his debut in a 1–0 defeat to Sheffield United a few hours later, and scored his first league goal in a 2–0 win over Barnsley on 27 October.

John scored his last goal against Colchester United six days later, in a 1–1 away draw. He returned to Fulham after making a total of eleven league appearances for Leicester.

On 25 January 2008, John joined Watford on a loan deal until the end of the 2007–08 season, with the option of a permanent move after that. He struggled with his fitness during his time at the club, making only three starts and two substitute appearances. In April 2008 he returned to Fulham after tearing a thigh muscle.

On the 2008 transfer deadline day, John moved to NEC Nijmegen on a one-year loan deal, with the Dutch side also obtaining a transfer option. In Nijmegen John suffered with continual problems. Although he was important as a substitute in two UEFA Cup matches, he failed to make an impression in the Dutch league. In January 2009 he went on trial at Charlton Athletic but wasn't offered a contract. Back in Nijmegen he was suspended to the reserve squad by manager Mario Been. On 3 March John returned to Fulham after both NEC and John didn't see any reason for continuing the loan. In March, John requested to train with Dutch side Heracles Almelo, alongside his brother Paddy, till the end of the 2008–09 season. The request was denied because John had no intention to play for Heracles in the next season.

He chose to sign for Belgian Pro League side Roeselare signing a 2-year contract. On 3 December, John was suspended and demoted to the reserve squad for disciplinary reasons by manager Dennis van Wijk. On 14 December Roeselare terminated John's contract.

John joined Major League Soccer club Chicago Fire during their pre-season training camp on 29 January 2010 with a view to signing before the start of the 2010 MLS season. On 11 March 2010, Chicago Fire hired him on a free transfer. After a disappointing season in MLS, John was released by Chicago on 24 November 2010.

John joined Gabala FC in Azerbaijan on 25 January 2011. After failing to revive his career in Azerbaijan, John handed in a transfer request. John went on trial with Nottingham Forest and flew to Portugal with them for a pre-season break.

He signed a one-year contract with Iran Pro League side Mes Sarcheshmeh on 20 December 2011. In the summer of 2012, John agreed to sign for Gençlik Gücü S.K. in Northern Cyprus, but the transfer fell through. On 22 September 2012, John joined League Two side Barnet. On 12 October 2012 John was joined at the club by fellow former Dutch international Edgar Davids. John made his debut against Plymouth Argyle, but was substituted after just 15 minutes due to a thigh injury. He also played in the FA Cup against Oxford United, but he was to make only two appearances for the club, and after a string of injuries, had his contract terminated by mutual consent in January 2013.

On 25 June 2013 John joined Eredivisie side Go Ahead Eagles on trial. After failing to win a contract with Go Ahead Eagles, John held talks with Polish Ekstraklasa side Piast Gliwice, and later claimed on Twitter that he had signed a two-year deal, but in fact was only training with the club until he had proven his fitness. He eventually made his debut in the Ekstraklasa on 1 September against Śląsk Wrocław as an 82nd-minute substitute.

In March 2014 it was announced the John had signed for the Pittsburgh Riverhounds of the USL Pro, the third division of the United States soccer pyramid. John debuted for the club in their second matchday of the season against the Richmond Kickers on 5 April 2014. After coming on as a 65th-minute substitute for Jason Johnson, John scored his first goal for the club in his debut, the Riverhounds' only goal in the 1–3 defeat. In the Riverhounds' next match, John scored again during his first game at Highmark Stadium against Wilmington Hammerheads FC, for a total of two goals in two matches. Following that match, John was suspended for three matches for "violent conduct". After making thirteen appearances and scoring four goals for the Riverhounds, John and the club mutually terminated the player's contract in July 2014, citing John's desire to return his family to Europe.

John joined Crawley Town on trial in July 2014, scoring in a friendly against Brighton & Hove Albion.

From the 2016–17 season, John coached the under-19 team of SC Buitenboys. He joined their first team as a player in mid-2019, competing in the Derde Klasse.

International
John was part of the Netherlands under-21 squad that won the 2006 European Championship in Portugal.

Previously, he had already made his main team debuts, appearing in a 2–2 friendly match against Sweden, on 18 August 2004. He then made his second appearance for the Netherlands when they played in a friendly match against Liechtenstein.

Personal life
John was born in Zwedru, Liberia, but his family emigrated to the Netherlands after the murder of his father, during the Liberian Civil War.

His two brothers Paddy and Ola are also footballers.

Honours

 * Netherlands U21:
 * UEFA U-21 Championship: 2006

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Collins John


text:
Benedict of Poland

Benedict of Poland (Latin: Benedictus Polonus, Polish Benedykt Polak) (c. 1200 – c. 1280) was a Polish Franciscan friar, traveler, explorer, and interpreter.

Benedict accompanied Giovanni da Pian del Carpine in his journey as delegate of Pope Innocent IV to the Great Khan Güyük of the Mongol Empire in 1245–1247. He was the author of the brief chronicle De itinere Fratrum Minorum ad Tartaros (On the Journey of the Franciscan Friars to the Tatars), not published until 1839 in France, and a year later in Poland, and the source for a longer work, Hystoria Tartarorum (History of the Tatars), discovered later and eventually published in 1965. The report of Benedict includes a copy of the letter of the Great Khan to the Pope. De Itinere Fratrum Minorum ad Tartaros, which is an account of the first expedition of Europeans to the capital of the Mongol Empire, which lasted from April 16, 1245 to November 18, 1247.

Little is known about the life of Benedict beyond the story of the journey. He may have been taken prisoner during the Mongol invasion of Poland in 1241. He was well educated and spoke and wrote Latin, Polish, and Old Rusin. He had become a friar in the Franciscan friary in Wrocław about 1236. This was the first major stop of Friar Giovanni after leaving on the mission from Lyon in April 1245. Benedict was chosen to accompany him as an interpreter because he had also acquired a knowledge of the Old East Slavic language and the first part of their journey was to Kyiv. He may have even acquired some Mongolian as a prisoner.

Benedict made his accounts of the journey during and after their return in 1247. After returning from the voyage he probably settled in the Franciscan monastery in Kraków where he spent the rest of his life. Later he was also a witness at the canonization of Saint Stanislaus of Szczepanów in 1252.

title: Benedict of Poland


text: User talk:64.166.158.47

title: User talk:64.166.158.47


text:
Hot Space

Hot Space is the tenth studio album by the British rock band Queen. It was released on 4 May 1982 by EMI Records in the United Kingdom and by Elektra Records in the United States. Marking a notable shift in direction from their earlier work, they employed many elements of disco, funk, R&B, dance, pop and new wave music on the album. This made the album less popular with fans who preferred the traditional rock style they had come to associate with the band. Queen's decision to record a dance-oriented album germinated with the massive success of their 1980 hit "Another One Bites the Dust" in the US.

"Under Pressure", Queen's collaboration with David Bowie, was released in 1981 and became the band's second number one hit in the UK. Although included on Hot Space, the song was a separate project and was recorded ahead of the album, before the controversy over Queen's new disco-influenced rock sound. The album's second single, "Body Language", peaked at number 11 on the US charts.

Overview
Before 1979, Queen had never used synthesisers on their albums. Beginning with The Game, Queen began using Oberheim OB-X synthesisers on their songs, including "Play the Game" and "Save Me". On Hot Space, the band went even further, introducing the drum machine for the first time. A departure from their trademark seventies sound, most of Hot Space is a mixture of rhythm and blues, funk, dance and disco, while the rock songs continued in a pop rock direction similar to their previous album (an exception is the song "Put Out the Fire").

During an interview in 1984, Roger Taylor affirmed that "it was really John [Deacon]" who turned the band towards a more disco sound. Elaborating, he said: "John’s always been R&B orientated, our bass player who wrote 'Another One Bites The Dust', ... which turned out to be the biggest selling record of the year. And I think that was the song that catapulted us into taking that road. I think we went too far and did too much. ... Everybody in the band feels that way now."

Disliking the new sound, Brian May and Taylor were critical of the influence that Paul Prenter, Freddie Mercury's personal manager between 1977 and 1984, had on the singer. Recalling the recording process in 2011, Taylor openly criticized the direction in which Prenter was taking Mercury (and thus the rest of the band), stating that "[Prenter] wanted our music to sound like you'd just walked in a gay club...and I didn't". May also noted that the making of the album in Munich took much longer than usual and that all of the band got into "deep emotional trouble" in the city, blaming a mixture of drink, drugs and partying as the reason for the relatively lengthy recording sessions. According to Mack, Queen's producer, Prenter loathed rock music and was in Mercury’s ear throughout the Hot Space sessions. Prenter also refused all requests from US radio stations to speak to Mercury. May states, "this guy, in the course of one tour, told every record station to fuck off. But not just "fuck off", but "Freddie says, ‘fuck off’". Queen roadie Peter Hince wrote "None of the band cared for him [Prenter], apart from Freddie", with Hince regarding Mercury's favouring of Prenter as an act of "misguided loyalty".

"Staying Power"
The horn arrangement for Mercury's "Staying Power" was added by Arif Mardin (who also produced Chaka Khan and added horn sections to Bee Gees and Aretha Franklin records). "Staying Power" would be performed on the band's accompanying Hot Space Tour, albeit much faster and heavier, with real drums replacing the drum machine and guitars and keyboards replacing the horns. (This arrangement contained no actual bass guitar, as John Deacon played guitar in addition to May.) It was also played on Queen's The Works Tour, until it was dropped from the setlist halfway through the European leg of the tour. In Japan, the band released "Staying Power" as a single in July 1982. Mardin's contributions were recorded at Record Plant Studios in New York. The original demo of the track featured a guitar instead of horns.

"Dancer"
The bassline of May's "Dancer" was played on an Oberheim OB-Xa synthesiser by him. The song itself – a fusion of rock and disco – is something of a follow-up to "Dragon Attack" from the band's 1980 album The Game in that it fuses heavy elements of music with danceable ones, as Led Zeppelin did. The phone message at the end of "Dancer" ("Guten Morgen, Sie wünschten, geweckt zu werden.") is in German, and was recorded in a hotel room in Munich; it translates as "Good morning, you wanted to be woken up.". The lyrics of "Dancer" are also notable for being the only ones on the album that make reference to the album title itself.

"Back Chat"
"Back Chat", written by John Deacon, is the track most influenced by black music. In addition to normal bass duties, Deacon also plays rhythm guitar and synthesiser on the song. As the album's final single, it stalled at number 40 on the UK charts and failed to chart in the US.

"Body Language"
"Body Language" is atypical among Queen songs, as there is very little guitar on the track, with the song being driven by a rhythmic bassline. Mercury, who composed the song on synth bass, had previously explored the instrument's potential with his contributions to the Flash Gordon soundtrack. The song's lyrics describe the gay cruising culture which Mercury was immersed in at the time. The "Body Language" video, featuring scantily clad models writhing around each other in a bathlike setting, proved somewhat controversial and was banned in a few territories. The song also appeared in the 1984 documentary film Stripper, being performed to by one of the dancers. Whilst the video was restricted to late-night showings on MTV, it nonetheless helped the song become the album's biggest hit in America, reaching number 11 on the Billboard Hot 100 in June 1982.

"Action This Day"
"Action This Day", one of two Taylor songs that appear on the album, was clearly influenced by the new wave movement/style current at the time; the track is driven by a pounding electronic drum machine in 2/4 time and features a saxophone solo, played by Italian session musician Dino Solera. "Action This Day" takes its title from a Winston Churchill catchphrase that the statesman would attach to urgent documents, and recapitulates the theme of social awareness that Taylor espoused in many of his songs. The band performed "Action This Day" at every show on the Hot Space Tour with a more conventional arrangement, replacing the drum machine and bass synth with a rock rhythm section and replacing the saxophone solo with an actual synthesizer. The verses are duets between Taylor and Mercury, while the chorus is sung by both.

"Put Out the Fire"
"Put Out the Fire" is an anti-firearm song written by May, featuring lead vocals and falsetto by Mercury, and backing vocals by Mercury, May and Taylor. May recorded its guitar solo under the influence of alcohol (after many unsuccessful attempts).

Though never released as a single, "Put Out the Fire", the album's most traditional Queen song, later appeared on the Queen Rocks compilation in 1997. A new video was also produced for the accompanying video compilation, featuring a live performance of the song intercut with footage of fire and explosions.

"Life Is Real (Song for Lennon)"
Mercury wrote "Life Is Real" as a tribute to John Lennon, whose murder in 1980 had also previously prompted the band to perform his song "Imagine" on tour. It is also one of the few Mercury songs whose lyrics were written before the music.

"Life Is Real (Song for Lennon)" was not played live on the European leg of the tour. It was only played a couple of times on the North American leg.

"Calling All Girls"
The first Queen song written by Taylor to be released as a single (albeit in selected countries, including the US and Australia, but not the UK), "Calling All Girls" failed to create much of an impact on the charts where it peaked at number 60 in the US and number 33 in Canada, despite its music video based on the George Lucas film THX 1138. Taylor composed "Calling All Girls" on guitar and played the feedback noises during the song's break. Queen never performed the song in Europe, and a live recording from Japan in 1982 is commercially available on the Queen on Fire – Live at the Bowl DVD, where "Calling All Girls" accompanies the photo gallery. The single was released in July 1982.

"Las Palabras de Amor (The Words of Love)"
May's lyrics for "Las Palabras de Amor" were inspired by Queen's close relationship with their Latin-American fans, and have been interpreted as an allegory for the Falklands War. A top 20 hit in the UK, "Las Palabras de Amor" marked the band's sixth single to feature at least one in-studio appearance on Top of the Pops, the others being "Seven Seas of Rhye" (three performances, only partially still existing), "Killer Queen" (two performances, one of which only partially exists), "Now I'm Here" (two performances, with only one of them partially existing) and "Good Old-Fashioned Lover Boy" (one performance). For this mimed performance, May is seen playing a grand piano, although he only played synthesisers on the recording. May also sang lead vocals for the harmonised line "this night and evermore".

"Cool Cat"
"Cool Cat", written by Mercury and Deacon, originally featured David Bowie on backing vocals and a few lines of spoken word to a rhythm during the middle eight. According to Mercury in a 1982 TV interview, Bowie was unhappy with the results and requested that his vocals be removed days before its parent album was slated to be released. With the exception of the electric piano (which was played by Mercury), all the instruments are played by Deacon, including guitars, synths and a drum machine. On the album version, Mercury sings the entire song in falsetto. The alternate take with Bowie's vocals still intact is widely available on various bootleg recordings and surfaces from an early 1982 vinyl Hot Space test pressing from the US. Deacon can be heard using the slap bass technique throughout the track. The song was used in 2023 in an Amazon Prime commercial featuring a young woman who, among other things, has a bobblehead of Mercury and buys a jacket on Prime similar to the one the bobblehead is wearing.

"Under Pressure"
A duet with Bowie, "Under Pressure" was the result of an impromptu jam session in the band's studio in Montreux. When it was released in 1981, "Under Pressure" reached number one in the UK singles chart. Although it was credited to the entire band and Bowie, Mercury was the primary director of this track, with him and Bowie being the main lyricists (each writing the lines they sang). John Deacon came up with the bass riff. Part of the chord progression is based on a rough demo of an unreleased song, "Feel Like". The songwriting is credited to all five participants.

Tour
The 1982 Hot Space Tour was Queen's last tour of North America until the Queen + Paul Rodgers Tour in 2005. The band did not tour North America for The Works tour in 1984, nor The Magic tour in 1986, after which they ceased touring, due to Mercury's ill-health with AIDS.

Release and reception
Due to its dance-pop sound, Hot Space is widely considered by both fans and critics to be one of Queen's most artistically disappointing albums. Stephen Thomas Erlewine of AllMusic said of the album that "the band that once proudly proclaimed not to use synthesizers on their albums has suddenly, dramatically reversed course, devoting the entire first side of the album to robotic, new wave dance-pop, all driven by drum machines and colored by keyboards, with Brian May's guitar coming in as flavor only on occasion." Alex Petridis of The Guardian gave the album two stars and said: "Like Queen, disco was melodramatic, unrepentantly camp, extravagantly arranged and omnivorous in its influences. Or at least it had been. By the time of 1982's Hot Space, disco had mutated into the weird, skeletal, dubby electronic sound pioneered by DJ Larry Levan, which really didn't suit Queen at all." Despite this, "Under Pressure" remains one of the band's staple songs.

Sandy Robertson of Sounds gave the album four stars, describing it as "fairly lickable funkpop" featuring "'Put Out The Fire'... with, plenty screaming Brian May axe histrionics ... a ballad in the old boy's mode called 'Life Is Real' ... a candymix of phasers, acoustics and electrics in 'Calling All Girls' ... sleazy keyboard/vocal pomp sobs in 'Las Palabras De Amor' ... a languid summer streak and slow slide through 'Cool Cat' and the cornerstone 'Under Pressure' itself."

Legacy
Michael Jackson, who was close friends with the band during the time, later cited Hot Space as an influence for his own album Thriller.

In a 2015 interview with Greg Prato of Songfacts, Extreme guitarist Nuno Bettencourt described how Hot Space had been an important album for him as a musician. "I think it's interesting because that album taught me two things. It taught me that even if you're in a band as a guitar player, music doesn't have to be driven by guitar - it's about the song, first. But I think the main thing is that Queen actually did an album like that - it was the fans' least favorite, but it was one of my favorites because it took a risk and branched out. All those synth parts they did and horns, I could always hear them with guitar in my head somehow. But quite oddly enough, or coincidentally enough, the title Hot Space is exactly what it meant: it's all the space between the music. That's what makes it funky and that's what makes it have a pocket."

In the 2011 documentary Queen: Days of our Lives, Queen's former manager Jim Beach described Hot Space as "a disaster really [...] it didn't appeal to the hardcore Queen fans who would turn up to concerts with 'Disco Sucks' banners." After the conclusion of the Hot Space tour in late 1982, the band would rarely include songs from the album in their later live set-lists with only "Under Pressure" remaining as a staple until their final concerts in 1986.

Track listing
All lead vocals by Freddie Mercury unless noted.

Personnel
Track numbering refers to CD and digital releases of the album. Specific instruments sourced from Queenvinyls.

Queen
 * Freddie Mercury – lead vocals (all tracks), backing vocals (all tracks), keyboards (1, 4, 5, 7, 10, 11), drum machine (1, 4), synth bass (1, 4)
 * Brian May – electric guitar (all but 10), backing vocals (2, 6, 9), co-lead vocals (6, 9), acoustic guitar (7-9), drum machine (2), synth bass (2), keyboards (9)
 * Roger Taylor – acoustic and electronic drums (all but 10), backing vocals (2, 5, 6, 9, 11), percussion (2, 6, 8), co-lead vocals (5), synthesizer (5), electric guitar (5), acoustic guitar (8)
 * John Deacon – bass guitar (3, 6-11), electric guitar (1, 3, 10), drum machine (3, 10), synthesizer (3, 10)

Additional personnel
 * David Bowie – lead vocals and synthesizer (11)
 * Arif Mardin – "hot and spacey" horn arrangement and production on "Staying Power"
 * Reinhold Mack – production; synth bass (5)
 * Dino Solera – saxophones (5)
 * David Richards – piano (11)

title: Hot Space


text:
Talk:Detroit Diesel Series 50

Detroit diesel 50 survived vfd. See: Votes for deletion/Detroit diesel 50 -- Wile E. Heresiarch 15:37, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

'''== Detroit Diesel Series 50 pulling power is great! ==

I drive a FL 106 tandem tractor with a Landoll equipment moving trailer tandem. Yes 18 wheels. Up to 80,000 pound loads (some days more

wink). In this truck there is a little 50 series.  4 cylinder. Yes my first work truck to have a 4 cylinder. I move heavy equipment with in

city limits mostly,Edmonton) for a transmission there is a 6 speed Alison auto. The gearing I am not sure but is low. Lower then 4.30 at 110km

hour. 2000 rpm. But anyways this truck for what I do is great, coming up from the river in the big hill pulling big 60 foot booms like

nothing most of the time, some days she works big, some of them hills are strait up and down. 60 to 70,000 pounds be hind a little 50 series.

Its not no 550 cat but it really blows be away when I think how little it is. For fuel i put in about 280 liters every 3 days so 100 bucks a

day in fuel. now that is running a great fuel program. i ran supper B logging truck for 8 years so i am used to not a big get up and go

140,000 pound loads) but i no when i truck pulls and for a little 8.5 liter engine that is a 4 banger it is great,and run all day for 10 hours

pulling heavy equipment up to 80,000 pounds all day. for 100 bucks in fuel. I give it a big thumbs up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.228.131 (talk) 04:59, 4 November 2009 (UTC) '''

title: Talk:Detroit Diesel Series 50


text:
Talk:Neoplan Transliner (North America)

Neoplan An440 survived WP:VFD. See: Votes for deletion/Neoplan An440 -- Wile E. Heresiarch 15:38, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

title: Talk:Neoplan Transliner (North America)


text:
User:Lifesmell

i want to decuss about data recovey

title: User:Lifesmell


text:
Romuald Adam Cebertowicz

Romuald Adam Cebertowicz (February 7, 1897 in Głowno – January 14, 1981 in Łódź, Poland) was a Polish hydrotechnician and a member of the Polish Academy of Sciences (PAN).

Cebertowicz is the creator of electro-injection method of soil solidification.

title: Romuald Adam Cebertowicz


text: Category:Swedish heavy metal musical groups


text:
Tomasz Radzinski

Tomasz Radzinski (born 15 December 1973) is a former professional soccer player who played as a striker and winger. He featured for clubs including North York Rockets in Canada, Germinal Ekeren, Anderlecht (where he won the national championship twice), Lierse and Waasland-Beveren in Belgium, Everton and Fulham in England and Skoda Xanthi in Greece. Born in Poland, he represented Canada at international level having moved there as a teenager, receiving 46 full caps between 1995 and 2009.

Club career
Prior to his moving to Canada, Radziński began his playing career as a youth with Cuiavia Inowrocław in his native Poland, and Germany's VfL Osnabrück. He joined the North York Rockets of the Canadian Soccer League in 1990 and remained with the club through the league's demise in 1992 to the club's last year, played in the National Soccer League (NSL), in 1993. He played in the summer of 1994 with the St. Catharines Wolves (of the same league which however was by then renamed to the Canadian National Soccer League).

Radziński returned to Europe, joining Germinal Ekeren in Belgium in 1994. From there he eventually signed for Belgian giants Anderlecht for whom he scored 57 goals in 90 appearances – including five UEFA Champions League strikes in his last season with the Belgian champions – before moving to Everton for around £4.5 million, the highest transfer fee paid for a Canadian up to that time.

At Everton, Radziński scored 25 times in 91 Premiership outings before requesting a transfer, eventually securing a three-year deal with Fulham F.C. worth £1.75 million. Radzinski wasn't as prolific at Fulham as he was in his previous side, but won over the fans with several crucial goals. Radzinski was released at the end of the 2006–07 season by new manager Lawrie Sanchez, totalling 17 goals in 117 appearances.

On 28 August 2007, he signed for Greek team Skoda Xanthi, on a free transfer.

One year later, on 30 August 2008, he signed a one-year contract for Belgian Second Division club Lierse, although his previous contract was valid until 2010. Lierse first had their eye on Peter Utaka, but when he transferred to Odense, they elected to sign Radzinski. Radzinski had disclosed to the press his belief that members of Skoda Xanthi had been involved in match fixing and was seeking a transfer.

On 29 January 2012, Belgian Second Division side Waasland-Beveren announced they had signed Radzinski on a short-term deal until the end of the 2011–12 season with an option for an additional year.

International career
Radzinski made his debut for the Canada national team in a June 1995 friendly match against Turkey. He earned a total of 46 caps, scoring 10 goals making him tied 9th with Paul Peschisolido in all-time scoring for Canada. In October 1999, Radzinski had been called up to the Canada national team by coach Holger Osieck, he promised to attend, failed to turn up and later refused to be interviewed about it. The Canadian Soccer Association approached FIFA to have Radzinski prevented from playing for Anderlecht as a result. Kevan Pipe, the head of the CSA called Radzinski's actions "an insult to his teammates, his coach and the country". In October 2001, he announced that he'd like to play for Canada again as they had a friendly against European opponents, Malta. He has represented Canada in 19 FIFA World Cup qualification matches. in three FIFA World Cup qualification campaigns (1998, 2006 and 2010)

He also holds a Belgian passport through his marriage.

Post-playing career
Radzinski was the technical director of Belgian soccer club Lierse S.K. from 2013 to 2015.

Career statistics

 * Scores and results list Canada's goal tally first, score column indicates score after each Radzinski goal.

Honours
Germinal Ekeren
 * Belgian Cup: 1996–97

Anderlecht
 * Belgian First Division: 1999–2000, 2000–01
 * Belgian Super Cup: 2000

Lierse
 * Belgian Second Division: 2009–10

Individual
 * Belgian First Division Top Scorers: 2000–01

title: Tomasz Radzinski


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Category:Military organization

This category is the root category for all topics related to military organization, including units, formations, groups, and other organizational bodies; it should contain only general articles and sub-categories. Please see the category guidelines for more information.

This category is distinguished from Category:Military-related organizations, which includes articles about individual organizations whose subject is related to the military. This category is organization of the military.

title: Category:Military organization


text:
Jérôme Bonnissel

Jérôme Bonnissel (born 16 April 1973) is a French former professional footballer who played as a left-back.

Career
Born in Montpellier, Bonnissel started his career with hometown club Montpellier, and proceeded to spend three seasons with La Liga club Deportivo de La Coruña.

He returned to his homeland to join Bordeaux in 1999 and stayed until he joined Rangers during the 2003 January transfer window, on a contract until the end of the season. The highlight of his time at Rangers was a start in the 2003 Scottish League Cup Final win over Celtic at Hampden Park.

In the summer of 2003 he joined Fulham on a free transfer, going on to play in their memorable 3–1 win over Manchester United at Old Trafford. On Boxing Day 2003 he was injured in a league game against Southampton and never played for Fulham again before leaving the club in 2005.

After a short six-month spell at Marseille, Bonnissel retired in 2006.

Honours

 * Rangers F.C.:
 * Scottish League Cup: 2003

title: Jérôme Bonnissel


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Anna Czekanowska-Kuklińska

Anna Czekanowska-Kuklińska (25 June 1929 in Lwów – 18 October 2021 ) was a Polish musicologist and ethnographer, professor at the University of Warsaw, daughter of anthropologist Jan Czekanowski.

She applied statistical-mathematical methods for analysis of folk music.

Works

 * Etnografia muzyczna (1971),
 * Ludowe melodie wąskiego zakresu w krajach słowiańskich (1972),
 * Kultury muzyczne Azji (1981).

title: Anna Czekanowska-Kuklińska