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User:Halibutt/Archive2

Pommerania
Congratulations to a good work on the Nazi Polish Campaign. Nice to see something else than revertions on my watchlist! --Ruhrjung 19:33, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Rokossovsky
Do you have a photo of him in Polish uniform, or during his time as Defence Minister? Adam 04:25, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Weichsel and other names
I hope you won't mind that, following your logic, I'll add Slavic names to all geographical locations in what is now Eastern part of Germany and Danube area. After all these areas belonged to the Slavs for several hundred years in the past... [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 07:45, Sep 2, 2004 (UTC)

 * Vistula is still often mentioned as Weichsel in some sources, I?ve added the name only to avoid confusion. Prussia was an European superpower and Weichsel had special psychological and geo-strategical importance for it and later Germany. I hope your nationalism does not blind you. GeneralPatton 13:02, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * I fully agree with you (although you'd still have to show me the English-speaking sources to call the Vistula with the German name). That's why I believe you will understand that the Danube (as the southern border of the Western Slavs, one of the most populous tribes in Europe) needs to be called with a Slavic name. Similarily the Berlin article should mention the former Slavic name Berolina since it was founded by Slavs. Also, Elbe and Spree articles should mention their Slavic names. The Slavs were an European superpower and Sprewa had its psychological and geo-political importance as the borders of the Slavic expansion and important trade routes. I hope your nationalism does not blind you and you will not change my entries. It's all about consistency, otherwise it's just German nationalism which should be avoided at wikipedia. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 13:44, Sep 2, 2004 (UTC)
 * I'll quote john k "If you can't see the difference between a city that was called Londinium 2000 years ago, and a city that was called Stettin 60 years ago, go right ahead. john k 05:00, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)". What we?re talking about was just 60 years ago, not 1500 or 2000. I really don?t see why you get so upset over the fact that parts of Poland used to be in Germany. They?re not anymore, and with the current ethnic structure, they will never be again, nobody is claiming them as German lands. But it?s not ancient history, it?s recent, quite recent history. And one question, how can I be a "German nationalist" when I'm not German myself? GeneralPatton 16:21, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Considering your previous behavior on the issue, I?d not be suppressed if some users go ahead and demand arbitration if you continue like this. They?d have a pretty good case. GeneralPatton 16:23, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * And the name of the article is Vistula the now accepted English name (although it ought to be Vistula River) ,nobody has renamed it Weichsel. And the Danube article does list the various names "The Danube (Bulgarian Dunav, German Donau, Greek Ister, Hungarian Duna, Latin Danuvius or Danubius, Romanian Dunăre, Serbian and Croatian Dunav, Slovak Dunaj, Ukrainian Dunay)". GeneralPatton 16:28, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * And about Berlin and other archaic names, well Berolina should be mentioned but in the History section, especially since no living language uses that name anymore. Weichsel is still widely used and as i've said, it was the principal name not that long ago. And in all fairness, the Polish name does come first in the article. I really don?t see the problem except maybe a desire by some to completely erase the connection with some fairly recent history. GeneralPatton 16:35, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I just showed you, that your point about French and Swahili is ridiculous and is hardly an analogy in the issue. The Slavic names for German cities and rivers will not bother ma at all, it will greatly enrich the article, but this is another ill conceived analogy. Although the areas you talk about were originally populated by Slavic tribes, highly culturally developed and so on, there was never a well established country there. Comparing those tribes to strictly defined country of Prussia is stretching it a bit. Also there is a lot of different Slavic names for the same places, the tribes spoke different languages, you know. How will you handle that? Changing the subject: you still didn't show me the second head (other than in his pants) on the prusiian eagle. You should go to Gdansk, remove the Prussian Eagle from the Neptune statue, because it doesn't belong there any more than French or Swahili Eagle. Rübezahl 16:34, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It's really not "Weichsel vs. Vistula", nobody wants to change the name of the article or something, we?re just mentioning the German name that has some historical significance. GeneralPatton 23:42, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Weichsel gives me 49,200 hits on Google. Quite enough to keep it in the article, some RfD?s have failed because of just 300 Google hits. GeneralPatton 23:04, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Trial of the Sixteen
To me, it seemed written from a strong POV (sympathetic to the defendants and antagonistic towards the Soviets). I don't know enough about the trial to make significant revisions of the content, though. Everyking 19:44, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

result of very bad mood
How to deal with Poles - after recent experiences with Jerzy(t) and CVA, and earlier with Adam Carr and numerous others... Szopen 09:59, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * Halibutt, I don't think it belong elsewhere than to meta. As I said, it was result of very bad mood. I am a bit tired - in fact this is not the attitude which is to be found in wikipedia alone, you can find it on other forums where i participate too; the more person think he knows about history, the more probably is that he will follow the "rules".
 * I need some time for rest. I guess i will try to avoid any "historical" articles for some time, i hope that when i will write about failure detectors and similar nobody will say that I am wrong because I am wrong.
 * Good luck in your exam, BTW

Szopen 10:48, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

List of Poles
You wrote that you still don't know what to do with it. What's your problem then? [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 22:41, Sep 8, 2004 (UTC)

 * I accidentally pressed "Enter" during typing in the description... ;) sorry...

What I meant is that I changed some of the section names so they are consistent with others, but there still left a few like: Controversial persons, Legendary persons, People who resisted Holocaust... We might change them to "Controversy", "Legends", "Holocaust" ... but this would not be exactly the same as with "Music" or "Literature" ... Controversy or Legends and especially the Holocaust are not the special fields of activity of those Poles... IYKWIM... Regards, Blueshade 08:04, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * I'd leave those categories as they are. We could either list people on such lists for what they did for most of their lives (and so the Holocaust category should be deleted since noone could resist Holocaust for more time than it actually lasted), or for what they are famous for. Otherwise we'd have to delete countless poets and writers who, apart from their literary activities - in many cases unnoticed until well after their death, should be listed as lawyers, factory workers, minor businessmen and so on. I have an exam in 5 hours so what I write might not be very consistent, but I hope you got the idea. :| [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 08:12, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)

 * Actually, with all respect, I don't exactly get the idea... More importantly though, I suspect my idea was misunderstood a bit... Thus, I shall try to express it once more. What I meant with the changes of the section names was that I wanted them to be uniform in their grammatical form. I did not want to change anything in actual content of the article. I changed "Musicians" to "Music" for example... I hope you get my point now... - Blueshade 09:23, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

love that new section link; Mazowiecki
Typos taken care of, AFAICT. Will be away for a while - in case more help is needed, check back with me in October. Krupo 02:58, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

Image:Eugeniusz Bodo.png
Did you replace the .jpg version with a .png at speedy delete tag the former. If so why? Theresa Knott (taketh no rest) 20:24, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Chauvinism
It's just my standard comment for minor edits and typo corrections, brother. I never said I had an average sense of humor. Chill, homeboy, no need to panic! Space Cadet 02:18, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Belarusans at Monte Cassino
1) http://www.svaboda.org/articlesprograms/diaspora/2004/5/0F3B6FB4-16EB-4FB0-976C-8F298B800A11.html - big interview with several Belarusan survivors of the Battle of Monte Cassino. One of them has become a history professor in the US, who has a dozen published works (Zaprudnik). According to his estimates, 10%-20% of battle participants were Belarusans and Ukrainians. The other guy giving the interview (Kastus Akula) emmigrated to the US, and he is a known Belarusian poet. (Here is a bit more extended version of this interview - http://www.svaboda.org/programs/zamiezza/2004/05/20040525124009.asp )

2) http://www.svaboda.org/news/articles/2004/05/20040518182853.asp - another inteview with a Belarusian survivor of the Battle. He claims that according to his reasearch there were more than 2000 people from the Belarusan parts of the then "Western Belarus" (under Polish control), and of them more than 1000 people identified themselves as Belarusans (the others apparently being ethnic Polish from Belarus). And this guy who's been to Monte Cassino afterwards said he counted more than 200 graves there with ethnic Belarusans.

3) http://www.svaboda.org/news/articles/2004/05/20040520122717.asp - interview with a movie director Uladzimir Bokun who made a documentary about Belarusians in Monte Cassino called "Forgotten Heroes". This movie director: I made a thourough research, and I've found 259 graves of Belarusans there. And I made up my mind to make a documentary about them.

4) http://www.svaboda.org/news/articles/2004/05/20040512120729.asp - memoirs of a journalist from Belarus service of Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty who was a participant of the Battle.

5) http://www.svaboda.org/news/articles/2004/05/20040511170910.asp - the president of the Belarusan government-in-exile, Mikola Abramczyk, greets several hundred Belarusan participants during his lecture in London, UK, in 1947.

and finally

6) http://txt.knihi.com/memuary/salaui.html - a well-known novel-memoir written by a Belarusan officer who fought in Monte Cassino. Its full title: "Death and nightingales. The memoirs of the Belarusan officier from Monte Cassino".

Regards rydel 12:01, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Category
I put a number of articles into diffrent theaters. You obviously do not think that Poland is spiritualy if not geographicaly to the East of Germany as you altered my edits to Warsaw Uprising and the Polish September Campaign Please see my comments in the talk page of Polish September Campaign. And also my comments o n Category talk:World War II campaigns and theatres.

Why change the Eastern Front (WWII) back to the general category World War II campaigns and theatres when it is theatre specific? Please reply to this via the Category talk:World War II campaigns and theatresPhilip Baird Shearer 13:38, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Frantisek
According to most sources, Josef Frantisek was awarded DFM with Bar (Bar was posthumous), not DFC. He was "only" sergeant. Pibwl 18:36, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Image:Jozef Haller.jpg
I just got to ask: why do you think that is applicable, and for what cases is  ? You might want to check the other image uploads of User:Emax: I slapped a on some of them, too. Lupo 21:40, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

sick nationalism at Wikipedia ;(
I just read you comment there "There was no Belarus (sad but true)". What can I say? I usually like Poles a lot (in fact, I liked every single Pole that I've met in my life so far), but you are the first person who makes me feel sick with your stupid sense of nationalistic chauvinism. And there, right on the Jewish page it's just ludicrous! What did Poles did to the Jews? Lots of bad things! And even nowadays Poles are still quite anti-semitic. And yet for the sake of nationalistic pride you now protect the content of the page as if you own it, as if you actually own those Jews. Ridiculous. -- rydel 13:24, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Lithuania, 1917
About the December 11 declaration, 1917. See the answer in my talk page, please. Linas 11:12, 2004 Sep 27 (UTC)

krystyna skarbek
i have recently completed writing the manuscript for what I hope will be the definitive biography of Krystyna. She was definitely not a double-agent. Her accuser was a Polish officer of the Szosty Oddzial (Sixth Bureau) who could not stand to have someone as charismatic as Krystyna on his patch (Cairo). None of the rumours he spread about her were ever confirmed and she was eventually re-instated as an SOE operative.

By the way, Krystyna was NOT born in 1915, but earlier, and not in Mlodzieszyn. Her birth and baptismal certificates have been located in Poland. When I find a publisher for my manuscript I will correct what has been written about her in Wikipedia (which I fully support). Ron Nowicki

 * Thanks for the info and hope to hear from you soon. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 06:46, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)

Poznan
Hi, you asked: "Why did you join the revert war in Poznan article?"

I don't really care if the name Posen is mentioned in the first paragraph, as I'm not very familiar with the subject. However, I do know that Gdansk is often named Danzig (referring to historical periods, mostly), so I do often revert the Gdansk article if that name is removed. I think this is according to the consensus on that page.

The edit I reverted on Poznan ( http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Poznan&action=history ) was done by someone who also removed the name Danzig from Gdansk. That's why I came to Poznan. I think that Poznan edit was a bad one, because: That last reason wighs especially heavy, as it turns the edit into straightforward vandalism.
 * 1) it wasn't done by someone with a neutral point of view (see the Gdansk edit)
 * 2) I whink it's against the consensus: it seems that the contributors to Poznan agree that the German name should be in the first sentence (judging from the history of the article). The edit war seems to be about how it should be mentiones (bolded or not; "German name", "former name" etc.)
 * 3) the edit summary "(added industrial parks info as well as borough population.)" is misleading

As it was a bad edit and vandalism, I did not hesitate to revert. I'm not going to participate in the edit war about the precise wording; I just reverted to the previous version. I will revert again if "Posen" is removed again (unless there is consensus to do so, e.g. on the talk page), but I will not revert any changes in the wording.

I hope this satisfies you? Eugene van der Pijll 15:50, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

buffer states
The concept of buffer states between Germany and Russia may seem to have survived until 1939/40 when they all were either peacefully sectioned (Czechoslovakia), invaded or made otherways dependent on either of the former empire. It may even seem that most countries (the United Baltic Duchy is an obvious exception) that were created in the buffer survived until the late 1930s. It would be hard to believe that you have a different perception, why one must ponder if you contest the connection between the German policy and the creation of countries that later, after Germany's defeat, could gain full independence.

Feel welcome to enlighten my curious soul. Cheers!

--Johan Magnus 18:34, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The problem is that there was little or no connection between the buffer states created by Germany at the end of WWI and those states that regained their independence shortly afterwards. In most of those countries that did manage to regain their independence even the anniversaries and national feasts indicate the date of post-war liberation rather than creation of buffer states during WWI. Look at it like this:

 * Ukrainian Peoples Republic - first overthrown and then annexed by the neighbours
 * Kingdom of Poland - overthrown by what could be interpreted as an all-national uprising, no link whatsoever between it and the latter Republic of Poland
 * Belarus National Republic - annexed by the Soviets
 * Lithuania - little continuation between the state of February 1918 and the state of November 1918.
 * and so on.

Speaking of Mitteleuropa countries in terms of 1940s is a slight anachronism. Technically those states were buffer states (just as Germany is a buffer state between Poland and France and the latter is a buffer state for Germany and Spain). But in the political sense neither of the two powers had much influence on internal politics of those countries and their independence was gained thanks to Central Powers' fall, not due to their policies in late 1917 or early 1918. Does it explain a bit? [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 01:52, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)

I tried to be precise in the wording proposed, and wrote "put an end to the independence of those buffer states between Russia and Germany, that were established as an outcome of the treaty of Brest-Litovsk and Germany's defeat in World War I."

In my view, there were two (or three) factors that were decissive for their early inter-war history:
 * 1) the Mittel-Europa policy of (Imperial) Germany (together with the support of Russian revolutionaries) that primarily aimed at a weakening of Imperial Russia, but also led to the establishment of the buffer states
 * 2) Germany's defeat, that made their independence possible
 * 3) The Russian Civil War, that made them important as proxies for the anti-Bolshevist viktors of the World War.

It's true that there many times weren't much of continuity with regard to regimes and constitutions, but on the other hand there was with regard to population and borders, and I don't really see why this should give reason to not mentioning one of the important factors in their establishment. On the other hand, maybe the place to mention that (i.e. the introductory paragraph) wasn't an optimal choise. But to return to my chief question, maybe you hold the opinion that they would have been created and gained independence in any case, regardless of the German attempts? That's an interesting question, and as far as I understand not easy to answer in the cases of Finland and Balticum, that I know somewhat better than Poland. Maybe you can direct me to facts and arguments supporting that opinion?

Finally, I do disagree with you on one particular point. I do not agree that the Mittel-Europa policies attempted at the creation of buffer states, but rather of satellite states. They became buffer states after independence (that in most cases couldn't be total before the German defeat). I do also not agree that Germany ever was a buffer state between Poland and France, since Poland and France for most of their history have had affinity not aversion to eachother.

--Johan Magnus 22:17, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Attitudes toward Germans
Dear Halibutt, In response to my comment in Wroclaw discussion (29 Sept.), you left this comment on my user page:

"I fully agree that there is a trend among many people in the east to deny or downgrade the cruelties that happened to the Germans on the Eastern Front. However, it is to be noted that for some 30 years already there is also a trend to depict Germans as innocent victims of the Soviets (or Poles, Czechs and so on, for that matter), just as if all that happened in 1945 was totally unprovoked. In my honest opinion this has little to do with communist propaganda (or any propaganda at all). Just go to Western Germany and ask any of the elderly people what they did during WWII. You'll be surprised that in 1938 the whole nation was composed of forest workers, medicians and railway workers. Even the wehrmacht soldiers seem very scarce, not to mention other formations."

Well, we seem to have widely divergent perceptions of attitudes west and east of the Oder-Neisse line. I've known many Germans, beginning with a foreign exchange student who lived with us 20 years ago. I've been to Germany quite a few times, and I have a good working knowledge of German. However, I also lived in Poland for a time, in 1996-97, and I've spent a good deal of time in Lithuania, where my wife is from. So I think my perspective is not one-sided.

In all my travels and encounters, I've never encountered any overt anti-Polish attitude among Germans. The Germans I've known tend express sadness over their country's loss of the territories given to Poland by Stalin (let's be frank), but are quick to acknowlege that this came about because of Germany's crimes during the war ? or as Marion Grafin Donhoff put it, "durch deutsche Schuld." I've never encountered any rational, educated German who entertains the slightest thought of "reclaiming" those territories. All the Germans I have know simply regret what happened in the past and hope to achieve friendly relations with their former enemies ? as they have done so well with the French.

Among Poles, I often encounted a one-sided and attitude that lays great ? and justifiable ? stress on how greatly Poland suffered at the hands of the Germans, but fails to admit that Poles and especially Russians took a terrible revenge on the Germans at the end of the war and thereafter. One aspect of this attitude is the Polish attempt to portray the history of the Oder-Neisse territories in a fanciful way that denies the fact that formerly, and for many centuries, they were German in population and character.

Yes, the Germans were the agressors, and Germans committed the most horrible crimes during the Nazi era. The world knows this, and the Germans have acknowledged it repeatedly and continue to do so to the present day. What the Western world remains largely ignorant of is the sadistic treatment of Germans, mainly civilians, in the territories in question after the war and their brutal expulsion from them. Research I have done indicates that 1.5 million to 2 million German civilians ? most of them women, children and old people ? lost their lives in this process. These people were for the most part not those who perpetrated the Nazi genocide against Jews, Poles and others. Accordingly, they, too, were victims.

I like Poland and enjoyed getting to know some Poles when I lived in Warsaw, but I feel that Polish attitudes toward their western neighbors are urgently in need of updating. The two countries live next to each other and have shared much in the past besides the atrocities of the 20th century. They will live next to each other in the future, too, and I believe it's time for Poland to first take a realistic view of its own postwar past, and second to work for reconciliation with Germany, for the good of both peoples and the future of Europe.

Those Poles who persist in suggesting, for example, that the Polish city of Gdansk always has been Polish and always has been called Gdansk, never Danzig, in the long run are doing their country a disservice by perpetuating a myth that ultimately will promote resentments on both sides. At the same time, as I've said elsewhere on Wikipedia, it's also time for the Germans (and the German media) to stop calling this city Danzig. The city of Danzig ceased to exist in 1945. And of course, this city is just one example of a larger reality. When Wroclaw was known as Breslau, it was a different city with different people and different institutions, including a very well known German university. That's past. Please acknowledge the past, accept the present, and look to the future.

User:sca 30 Sept 04

Hello again Halibutt, Thank you very much for your long and thoughtful response on my talk page. It's refreshing to be able to actually discuss these matters in a reasonable way. And, again, it's interesting that we have such divergent perceptions of prevailing attitudes, at least with respect to present-day Germans.

First I have to disagree on one historical point. West Germany recognized the Oder-Neisse line as Poland's permanent western border in 1970. In conjunction with this act, the chancellor at the time, Willy Brandt (who had himself fled Nazism), made the dramatic and widely appluaded symbolic gesture of falling to his knees in front of the memorial to the Warsaw uprising (which I often walked past during my time in Warsaw).

In the German media at the time there was a lot of discussion about the "Heimatsrecht" of the Polish people now living in the former German areas. The argument was that while the transfers of 1945 violated the "Heimatsrecht" of the then-German inhabitants, those rights now were superseded by the "Heimatsrecht" of the new Polish inhabitants. In other words, two wrongs would not make a right, as we say in English.

This recognition was only reaffirmed in the Two Plus Four treaty on German reunification in 1990.

As an anecdote, let me relate that when, in the early '80s I asked our German foreign-exchange student, who was from Marburg, how he felt about West Germany's renunciation of claims to the Oder-Neisse territories, he said: "The people there are yearning not to be German, but to be free."

Secondly, I have a little problem with your terminology. Wroclaw, for example, did not merely "belong to Germany" -- it was German. The people who lived there spoke German. I have to observe that Poles, even those who take a more balanced view, have a tendancy to portray these cities and territories as having only been "occupied" by Germany, not essentially German in character. The fact is, German Breslau was transformed into Polish Wroclaw -- as I understand it mainly by moving in settlers from the Lwow region.

Two anecdotes: I knew a Polish woman in Warsaw who was from Wroclaw. Her father indeed was from Lwow. She told me the joke about two Poles meeting on a train, one saying "Where are you from," the other saying, "I'm from Wroclaw," and the first one saying. "Oh, great, I'm from Lwow, too!"

I also have a German friend whose mother was from Breslau. Her mother was only 6 when the family escaped from "Festung Breslau" in 1945, but she retains a strong emotional attachment to old Breslau. This friend, a young woman who is an elementary school teacher, has been to Wroclaw a number of times with student groups, has nothing against Poles and has Polish friends. But she is irritated by the simultaneous unwillingness of Poles to say anything about the fact that the city used to be German, and their eagerness to sell visiting Germans old artifacts of German days left behind when the Germans were expelled.

And by the way, I don't agree with your statement that " the crimes against Poles are largely forgotten in the West." While it's true that most Americans associate "Nazi crimes" first with "Jews" and "the Holocaust," everyone also knows generally that the German occupation of Poland was very harsh; and while they may not know the numbers, like everyone knows "6 million Jews," they know that the German occupation of Poland was itself a crime against humanity. My own view is that it will take Germany centuries to overcome the infamy of those 12 years of Nazism. Even today the first association many people in the West have with "Germany" is "Nazi." This of course is unfair to the present generation of Germans.

I do think the recent attempt of the Prussian expellee organization to seek return of properties that once belonged to expellees is a mistake -- not because they don't have a grievance, but because their loss is hugely overshadowed by all the other losses of the war in which their country was the aggressor. The territorial changes are history and aren't going to be revised. It would be like Mexico seeking to regain Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, California, etc. from the U.S. it isn't going to happen.

The past is past. Time to move on. But as a journalist, and a liberal humanist who believes strongly that human rights are for all people, including Poles and Germans, I think both sides of the past need to be told truthfully on both sides of the Oder-Neisse border. As an amateur historian, my perception is that the German side of the 1945-49 story has not been told in the West. I don't read European media much so I don't know, but I'm surprised at your statement that it's the Polish side that hasn't been adequately told.

Some years ago I wrote an academic paper on the topic of the 1945 territorial changes. I have it in digital form if you would like to read it. My sources were limited at the time, before the Internet, to the resources of a small college library and books I had read, and I certainly would not pretend it is an exhaustive presentation of the topic. But it is a story that hasn't been told in the U.S.

Currently I'm reading a lot about the Teutonic Knights, including a new book by an American historian, William Urban. One of the interesting aspects of this story is the extent to which nationalities in those days were less important than religion and dynastic relations. In the Europe of the future I believe nationalities will be less important than economics and culture. But I have to say that in my experience the Poles tend to be the most nationalistic people in Europe today, and I believe this attitude to be out of touch with the times. Again, this is not to say I don't like Poles -- to the contrary. I have only the best hopes for Poland and its integration into the EU and the Western world.

I hope you find something of interest or value in this discussion.

Czesc! User:sca 1 Oct 04

Again, thanks for your thoughtful response on my page. Perhaps "nationalistic" is the wrong word for the Poles -- but something to describe their ethnic sensitivity, assertiveness and occasional defensiveness would be appropriate.

Regarding German reluctance to recognize the territorial losses, I think it was for two reasons: the domestic political clout of the expellees, and an understandable human sense of shock and denial over the loss of one-fourth of their prewar (and pre-Nazi) territory. Most peoples would be loathe to accept such a thing, no matter how much they themselves were to blame for it. It seems to me that the Germans, two generations later, have done far better at accepting losses and moving on than some peoples in the Balkans and the Middle East, who seem determined to be revanchists forever.

I'd be happy to email my paper to you -- just send me your email address, please. Mine is saks2800@aol.com.

Dziekuje.

User:sca 2 Oct 04

Regarding your many interesting entries:

Many years ago, when I was a young man -- in 1971, to be exact -- I vistited Mauthausen during my first trip to Europe. It was a chilling and indeed sickening experience.

When I lived in Warsaw, my apartment was in Mokotow. It was far from luxurious -- very cold in winter! At the time I was working for the Warsaw Business Journal.

I have photos of the tomb of the unknown solidier, which I could have digitized and could email to you if I had your email address.

I've been to Druskininkai -- Do you like Ciurlionis? -- but for me the most interesting place in Lithuania, outside of Vilnius itself, is Palanga. Vilnius is fascinating. Have you been through the Jewish Museum and the KGB Museum there?

You might be interested to know that my wife, Katerina (Polish: Katrzyna--haha!), or Jekaterina, is an ethnic Russian who was born and grew up in Vilnius. At age 5, when she went to school, she was suddenly expected to speak Lithuanian, which wasn't spoken at home. At that age it doesn't take one long to learn, I guess. She is fluent in Russian, Lithuanian and English, and can get by in Polish.

My own language skills are limited to a good working knowledge of German, plus a smattered of French, Dutch, Polish, Lithuanian and Russian.

Do you read German? If so, I recommend "Zeugnis vom Untergang Konigsbergs," by Michael Wieck (Heidelberger Verlaganstalt, 1993). Wieck by the way is Jewish.

I appreciate the opportunity to correspond with you.

User:sca 3 Oct 04

WikiProject Battles progress section
I came to feel the main project page should be fairly static and that "progress" should be monitored on sub-pages (such as the "New articles (Battles)" page) but I'm too lazy and/or cowardly to do anything about it myself. I did tinker with building a maintenance table of all battle articles in which their stub/battlebox/category/etc. status could be marked. Anyway, you're not alone in working on battles. Geoff/Gsl 02:33, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

WikiProject Battles
Hey Halibutt, I think you may be the only one active at the moment...I try to add battleboxes whenever I can, but I just don't have time to write any new battle articles at the moment (although I have several I plan to write eventually). Adam Bishop 05:10, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Germany vs. chancellor Hitler
Ruhrjung as a part of his recent (great, BTW) modifications changed the mention that "Germany supported Franco" to "the governments of Germany supported Franco" (or something along these lines). While I would be the last one to accuse Ruhrjung of any hidden agenda, I don't really get what is wrong in saying that Germany supported Franco. Both the government and a large part of German society supported Franco and I really see no reason to blur the sentence by adding some softening agents. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 20:40, Oct 3, 2004 (UTC)

 * I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth - but I guess from my recent experience as a brother-in-arms with Ruhrjung (yes, that's intended as a partly ironical drift - the reader is intended to smile!) that the idea here is
 * either that in the case of Germany there was in the mid-1930s not the same degree of double-way influence between population/educated elite and government as in most other European countries at this time and as in most other times in Germany. At least, this is my opinion. While I have only an average knowledge on inter-war Germany, this average knowledge makes me belief that there is a victors' bias against Germany and Germans at large, that often paints the Germans during the twelve years of the Third Reich as more responsible for disliked policies of the German government than what we usually attribute to other peoples under dictatorship.
 * or, that there is a tendency on Wikipedia to identify the Third Reich with the Federal Republic, that I know of personal experience from young Germans I know, that many perceive as having increased in recent years, maybe particularly in english-language contexts, as signs of an anti-German campaign more-or-less. If you look at Ruhrjung's many small edits in this run, there is a strong tendency to change "Germany" for "German", which I personally may find exaggerated, but on the other hand, it's not quite without reason, and not more exaggerated than much other things here around. /Tuomas 13:46, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Email -- sca
Dzien dobry, Halibutt,

I still don't have an email address for you! Please send it to me at saks2800@aol.com. When I first left this address on the "attitudes toward Germans" page, I left out the "2800" part (later corrected), so perhaps that's where you emailed. In any event, I haven't yet received any email from you.

Regarding your latest post on my page, it's unfortunate that German isn't among your impressive language skills, as there's nothing like reading things from the other side to understand what the other side is thinking. I wish I could read Polish, but I only spent half a year in Warsaw, and I was working in an English-language office. (Do you ever read the Warsaw Business Journal?) And I'm afraid that, of all the European languages with which I've had contact, Polish is by far the most difficult for an English-speaker. Even Czech would be easier, I think.

Lithuania today is in many ways charming, but it's not the Lithuania that Mickiewicz or even Milosz wrote about. I didn't notice much evidence at all of Polish habitation there, outside of architecture and Catholic religious buildings and shrines. There were only a couple Polish restaurants in Vilnius when I lived there.

You really should visit Vilnius -- it has a beautiful baroque old city that wasn't affected much by the war, and there is a lot going on there, with many fun restaurants and clubs, etc. Also, Palanga, north of Klaipeda (Memel), has one of the most beautiful beaches I've ever seen, and I've been to the California and Oregon coasts. On the Kurskaya Kosa (Kurische Nehrung) is the charming old fishing village of Nida (Nidden), with Thomas Mann's vacation house as a museum and an old German church and graveyard.

I've been to Kaliningrad, too, and it's kind of depressing but historically fascinating, with empty, fallow fields and moldering German ruins. One observation: The Russians are perfectly candid about its German history -- unlike, it must be said, the Poles in relation to all the places they took over in 1945. Perhaps that's because it was the Russians who conquered it all. They remain very proud of having defeated Germany, but at the same time seem to have no problem with German tourists coming to Kaliningrad on "nostalgia" visits. You will even see in restaurants and bars maps and photos of old East Prussia and Konigsberg. A nice seaside place in Kaliningrad is Svetlogorsk (Rauschen).

Do widzenia.

User:sca 4 Oct 04

Romanian Jews and the annexation of Bessarabia
Please, consider if you can understand the following sentence from the article on the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, and if so maybe rewrite it so also people with less of a forehand knowledge may get it?
 * The annexed Romanian territories had a large concentration of Jewish population. While the Soviet Union tend to consider them Ukrainians, Ribbentrop asimilated them with Germans, showing the German interest regarding their future.

I'm also in the process of writing a comment on the German Mittel-Europea policy on my talk page, but am not yet finished. Until then: Thank you for your answer! --Johan Magnus 16:51, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps the author wanted to include four pieces of information in those sentences: If that's not the case - I have absolutely no idea what would this text mean. However, if this is the case then perhaps it could be rewritten as ''The annexed Romanian territories were inhabitated mostly by Romanians, with a significant Jewish minority also present. However, the inhabitants of Bessarabia were treated by the Soviet Union as romanised Ukrainians while the German authorities treated a large part of them as ethnic Germans'', or something along these lines. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 17:15, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)
 * There was Bessarabia that was populated by Romanians
 * Stalin treated the Romanians living in Bessarabia as romanised Ukrainians
 * Hitler treated the Romanians living there as Germans (Volksdeutsch, I guess)
 * There were also some Jews living there.

 * Do you mind if I (without reference to you) take your rewrite above to Vasile and ask him if that would be an appropriate clarification of the sentence he introduced? --Johan Magnus 17:21, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I'm not much wiser from Vasile's last contributions. I guess I lack some of the relevant background information. --Johan Magnus 17:53, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

WikiProject Geography of Poland

 * I started WikiProject Geography of Poland some time ago to settle the naming conventions for Polish Voivodships, powiats/counties and gmina/communes, as well as to create a set of infoboxes for use on these pages. I thought you might be interested. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 12:51, Oct 5, 2004 (UTC)
 * Howdy. My only edit on the listed article was a minor edit fixing a malformed link.  Kindly update your algorithm for selecting possible interested parties from edit history.  Ta kindly.  - TB 13:01, Oct 5, 2004 (UTC)

Poland
I'll leave you a message in the Polish Wikipedia

Allied policy towards Central Europe
Can we finally move the User talk:Halibutt/Allied policy towards Central Europe to to public Wiki and make Poland's betrayal by the Western Allies and its redirects an redirect to it? Yes, I know it is not finished but it is so much better then the current version... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 12:22, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I don't know if I breach some etiquette rule now, but I second that. It's important also, in my opinion, to consider from which articles there OUGHT to be a reference to this important but, in the West, lesser understood theme, and write a sentence, or a half, in each of them with a link to the article. --Johan Magnus 17:51, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

title: User:Halibutt/Archive2


text: Talk:Eva by Heart

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Eva by Heart


text:
Edmeston

Edmeston can refer to:

People

 * William Edmeston (18th century), British officer in French and Indian War, brother of Robert
 * Robert Edmeston (18th century), British officer in French and Indian War, brother of William
 * James Edmeston (1791–1867), English architect, surveyor, and hymn writer
 * Newton Edmeston (20th century), Mayor of Fort William, Ontario 1922–1925

Places

 * Edmeston, New York, town in Otsego County, New York, USA
 * Edmeston (CDP), New York, community in the town of Edmeston
 * West Edmeston, New York, community in the town of Edmeston
 * South Edmeston, New York, community in the town of Edmeston

Companies

 * Edmeston AB, Swedish engineering company belonging to the Sandvik Group

title: Edmeston


text:
File:Eva Cassidy - Live at Blues Alley.jpg

Cover for the album Live at Blues Alley by Eva Cassidy


text:
Arthur Laing

Arthur Laing, (9 September 1904 – 13 February 1975), a Canadian politician, was actively involved with the BC Liberals, but his primary achievements were federally as a Liberal member of parliament. He served in the cabinets of prime ministers Lester B. Pearson and Pierre Trudeau.

Early life
Arthur Laing was born in Eburne, BC on 9 September 1904 to Thomas (1864–1951) and Marion (1870–1949) Laing. His father, a farmer on Sea Island (namely south Eburne), belonged to the group that initiated the BC Federation of Agriculture.

Arthur graduated from the University of British Columbia (UBC) with a Bachelor of Science in Agriculture (BSA) in 1926. He joined the Vancouver Milling and Grain Company that year. He became manager of the Agriculture Chemicals Division of Buckerfields Ltd. in 1933.

Political career
Laing was a member of the Richmond School Board 1930–43, including chair for 8 years. He unsuccessfully ran as the BC Liberals candidate for Delta in 1937 and 1941. Laing was president of the BC Liberals prior to representing Vancouver South 1949–53 in the House of Commons.

He resigned his seat to become leader of the BC Liberals, immediately before the 1953 provincial election. Only three other Liberal candidates were elected to the BC legislature that year. He represented Vancouver-Point Grey 1953–56. He lost in 1956, and in the 1957 Burnaby by-election. After six years in the post, Laing stepped down as the party leader.

Returning as the member for Vancouver South 1962–72, he was Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources (1963), Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development (1966), Minister of Public Works (1968), and Minister of Veterans’ Affairs (1972). He sat in the Senate 1972–75.

Many dignitaries were present among the 700 mourners who attended his funeral.

Marriage and children
In 1937, he married Geraldine Hyland (possibly Highland) (1909–1978). Linda Laurine, an only child, married David Billingsley.

Honours
He was initiated an honorary member of the Blood Band of the Blackfoot Indian Confederacy in 1967. A new government building in Yellowknife was named after him in 1969. He was awarded the Freedom of the City of Vancouver in 1974. Two geographical features, posthumously named in 1975, were the Arthur Laing Peninsula on Ellesmere Island in Canada's northernmost national park (Quttinirpaaq), and the Arthur Laing Peak on the Alaska/Yukon border. Although the name was announced in September 1974, the Arthur Laing Bridge, in Metro Vancouver, did not open to traffic until August 27, 1975 and was officially dedicated on May 15, 1976. He had been a strong advocate for this link. Accepted by daughter Linda on his behalf, he received one of the nine LFS Centenary Awards, issued in 2008, for outstanding achievements of UBC alumni.

Archives
There is an Arthur Laing fonds at Library and Archives Canada.

title: Arthur Laing


text:
Shangshui County

Shangshui County is a county in the east of Henan province, China. It is under the administration of Zhoukou city.

Administrative divisions
As 2012, this county is divided to 3 subdistricts, 9 towns and 11 townships. Subdistricts:
 * Subdistricts
 * Towns
 * Townships

title: Shangshui County


text:
Thuvia, Maid of Mars

Thuvia, Maid of Mars is a science fantasy novel by American writer Edgar Rice Burroughs, the fourth of the Barsoom series. The principal characters are Carthoris (the son of John Carter of Mars) and Thuvia of Ptarth, each of whom appeared in the previous two novels.

Plot introduction
In this novel the focus shifts from John Carter, Warlord of Mars, and Dejah Thoris of Helium, protagonists of the first three books in the series, to their son, Carthoris, prince of Helium, and Thuvia, princess of Ptarth. Helium and Ptarth are both prominent Barsoomian city state/empires, and both Carthoris and Thuvia were secondary characters in the previous two novels.

Its plot devices are similar to the previous Martian novels, involving the kidnapping of a Martian princess. This time John Carter's son Carthoris is implicated. It does however have some inventive and original ideas, including an autopilot and collision detection device for Martian fliers, and the creation of the Lotharians, a race of ancient Martians who have become adept at telepathic projection, able to create imaginary warriors that can kill, and sustain themselves through thought alone.

Plot summary
Carthoris is madly in love with Thuvia. This love was foreshadowed at the end of the previous novel. Unfortunately Thuvia is promised to Kulan Tith, Jeddak of Kaol. On Barsoom nothing can break an engagement between a man and woman except death, although the new suitor may not cause that death. Thus it is that Thuvia will have none of him. This situation leaves Carthoris in a predicament.

As Thuvia suffers the common Burroughsian heroine's fate of being kidnapped and in need of rescue, Carthoris' goal is abetted by circumstances. Thus he sets out to find the love of his life. His craft is sabotaged and he finds himself deep in the undiscovered south of Barsoom, in the ruins of ancient Aanthor. Thuvia's kidnappers, the Dusar, have taken her there as well, and Carthoris is just in time to spot Thuvia and her kidnappers under assault by a green man of the hordes of Torquas. Carthoris leaps to her rescue in the style of his father.

The rescue takes Carthoris and his love to ancient Lothar, home of an ancient fair-skinned human race gifted with the ability to create lifelike phantasms from pure thought. They habitually use large numbers of phantom bowmen paired with real and phantom banths (Barsoomian lions) to defend themselves from the hordes of Torquas.

The kidnapping of Thuvia is done in such a way that Carthoris is blamed. This ignites a war between the red nations of Barsoom. Carthoris must try to be back in time with Thuvia to stop the war from breaking loose. Carthoris wonders if his love will ever be requited by the promised Thuvia.

Background
Burroughs began writing Thuvia, Maid of Mars, in April 1914, at the time describing it as a 'Carthoris' story. After a break in California, he had begun a furious writing schedule, including other works as well as what was to become Thuvia, Maid of Mars. A new editor, Robert H. Davis, had replaced Newell Metcalf, the previous editor of All-Story Magazine (which had published Burrough's previous Barsoom novels), at the now amalgamated All-story Cavalier Weekly. Davis wrote to Burroughs on June 12, 1914 after reading previous fiction (including Tarzan), suggesting ideas and suggesting a meeting. Burroughs finished the story on June 20, 1914. Burroughs reached New York on June 23, and several days later mailed the finished typescript of what was still entitled "Carthoris", describing it as "another Martian story" he wished "to sell for use in All-Story Cavalier Weekly".

Publication
The finished story was first published in All-Story Weekly as a serial in three parts on April 8, 15, and 22, 1916. It was later published as a complete novel by A. C. McClurg in October, 1920.

Genre
The novel can be classed as a planetary romance. This genre is a subset of science fiction, similar to sword and sorcery, but including scientific elements. Most of the action in a planetary romance is on the surface of an alien world, usually includes sword fighting, monsters, supernatural elements as telepathy rather than magic, and involves civilizations echoing those on Earth in pre-technological eras, particularly composed of kingdoms or theocratic nations. Spacecraft may appear, but are usually not central to the story.

Major characters

 * Carthoris: Son of John Carter and Dejah Thoris who inherits his father's superior strength and ability with a sword. A minor character in The Gods of Mars. A principal character in Thuvia, Maid of Mars and love interest of Thuvia.
 * Thuvia of Ptarth: A Princess of Ptarth. She first appears in The Gods of Mars, among a group of Red Martians rescued by John Carter from the nefarious Therns who maintain the illusion of the Martian 'Heaven' in the Valley of Dor. She is later imprisoned with John Carter's wife Dejah Thoris, in a temple prison which can only be opened once per year and remains by her side for much of the novel and the sequel The Warlord of Mars. Like many of Burroughs Martian heroines, she is tough, courageous, proud and strongly identifies with her aristocratic position in Martian society. Also typically, she is abducted by evildoers (her rescue providing primary motivation for the plot of Thuvia, Maid of Mars) who wish to use her for political gain — in this case by Astok, Prince of Dusar, who blames the kidnapping on Cathoris.
 * Kar Komak: A Lotharian bowman, with a noble and chivalrous personality (unlike the majority of the remaining Lotharians). While initially one of the phantoms projected by the Lotharians to fight off the Green Martian attacks on Lothar, he assumes a corporeal form after Carthoris and Thuvia leave Lothar, and turns out to have been a real Lotharian from the distant past. He joins the pair, fighting in the battles that follow. He is also able to create his own phantom bowmen to assist in combat.

Scientific basis
Burroughs' vision of Mars was loosely inspired by astronomical speculation of the time, especially that of Percival Lowell, who saw the planet as a formerly Earthlike world now becoming less hospitable to life due to its advanced age, whose inhabitants had built canals to bring water from the polar caps to irrigate the remaining arable land. Lowell was influenced by Italian astronomer, Giovanni Virginio Schiaparelli, who in 1878, had observed features on Mars he called canali (Italian for "channels"). Mistranslation of this into English as "canals" fuelled belief the planet was inhabited. The theory of an inhabited planet with flowing water was disproved by data provided by Russian and American probes such as the two Viking missions which found a dead, frozen world where water could not exist in a fluid state.

World of Barsoom
A million years before the narrative commences, Mars was a lush world with oceans. As the oceans receded, and the atmosphere grew thin, the planet has devolved into a landscape of partial barbarism; living on an aging planet, with dwindling resources, the inhabitants of Barsoom have become hardened and warlike, fighting one another to survive. Barsoomians distribute scarce water supplies via a worldwide system of canals, controlled by quarreling city-states. The thinning Martian atmosphere is artificially replenished from an "atmosphere plant."

It is a world with clear territorial divisions between White-, Yellow-, Black-, Red-, and Green-skinned races. Each has particular traits and qualities, which seem to define the characters of almost every individual within them. Burroughs's concept of race in Barsoom is more similar to species, rather than ethnicity.

Technology
The Red Martians of Barsoom have fliers operating with a form of anti-gravity. Thuvia, Maid of Mars is notable in that John Carter's son, Carthoris, invents an apparent precursor of the autopilot (decades before an actual device was perfected). The mechanism allowed the pilot to reach any destination on Barsoom, although it required the pilot to keep the craft pointed in the right direction. Upon arrival, the mechanism also lowered the flier to the ground. Carthoris' flier was also equipped with an anti-collision device, which detected obstacles and automatically steered around them.

Themes
While Burroughs is generally seen as a writer who produced work of limited philosophical value, Burroughs wrote two Barsoom novels that appear to explore, or parody, the limits of excessive intellectual development at the expense of bodily or physical existence. Thuvia, Maid of Mars, with its depiction of the Lotharians is the first. The Lotharians have mostly died out. They had been fleeing from the attacks of Green Martians, during which most of them were killed (including all women and children), when they found a defensible location and came to a dramatic realization that the mind is everything, and hence developed advanced telepathic powers including the ability to create phantom bowmen to combat their Green Martian adversaries. Such is the detail of their power of imagination that the bowmen even appear to die in combat, and the Green Martians are killed by their arrows. A Lotharian, Jav, explains to the protagonist, Carthoris, that the illusion is only maintained by the belief of the Green Martians. If they knew the truth it would not be effective.

The Lotharians also maintain the illusion of a functioning, normal Barsoomian society through powerful telepathic projections. They have formed two factions, which appear to portray the excesses of pointless intellectual debate - one faction, the realists, believes in imagining meals to provide sustenance, another, the etherealists, believes in surviving without eating.

The Chessmen of Mars is the second example of this trend. The Kaldanes have sacrificed their bodies to become pure brain, but although they can interface with Rykor bodies, their ability to function compared to a normal people, with an integrated mind and body, is ineffectual and clumsy.

Copyright
The copyright for this story has expired in the United States and, thus, now resides in the public domain there. The text is available via Project Gutenberg.

title: Thuvia, Maid of Mars


text: Talk:Postage stamp block

title: Talk:Postage stamp block


text:
Deep-submergence vehicle

A deep-submergence vehicle (DSV) is a deep-diving crewed submersible that is self-propelled. Several navies operate vehicles that can be accurately described as DSVs. DSVs are commonly divided into two types: research DSVs, which are used for exploration and surveying, and DSRVs (deep-submergence rescue vehicles), which are intended to be used for rescuing the crew of a sunken navy submarine, clandestine (espionage) missions (primarily installing wiretaps on undersea communications cables), or both. DSRVs are equipped with docking chambers to allow personnel ingress and egress via a manhole.

Strictly speaking, bathyscaphes are not submarines because they have minimal mobility and are built like a balloon, using a habitable spherical pressure vessel hung under a liquid hydrocarbon filled float drum. In a DSV/DSRV, the passenger compartment and the ballast tank functionality is incorporated into a single structure to afford more habitable space (up to 24 people in the case of a DSRV).

Most DSV/DSRV vehicles are powered by traditional electric battery propulsion and have very limited endurance, while a few (like NR-1 or AS-12/31) are/were nuclear-powered, and could sustain much longer missions. Plans have been made to equip DSVs with LOX Stirling engines, but none have been realized so far due to cost and maintenance considerations. All DSVs to date (2023) are dependent on a surface support ship or a mother submarine that can piggyback or tow them (in case of the NR-1) to the scene of operations. Some DSRV vessels are air transportable in very large military cargo planes to speed up deployment in case of emergency rescue missions.

Trieste-class bathyscaphes

 * FNRS-2 : The first bathyscaphe, developed by Swiss engineer Auguste Piccard and named after the Belgian Fonds National de la Recherche Scientifique (FNRS), the funding organization for the venture. FNRS also funded the FNRS-1, a balloon that set a world altitude record, also built by Piccard. This bathyscaphe consisted of a gasoline filled float, 22 feet long and 10 feet wide, and oval shaped. Gasoline being less dense than water, would provide buoyancy for when the bathyscaphe needed to rise to the surface. The ovular float was divided into six tanks for holding gasoline, having a combined total of 6,600 gallons.

 * FNRS-3 : After damage to the FNRS-2 during its sea trials in 1948, the FNRS ran out of funding and the submersible was sold to the French Navy in 1950. It was subsequently substantially rebuilt and improved at Toulon naval base, and renamed FNRS-3. It was relaunched in 1953 under the command of Georges Houot, a French naval officer.

 * DSV-0 Trieste : The X-1 Trieste bathyscaphe has reached Challenger Deep, the world's deepest seabed. It was retired in 1966.

 * DSV-1 X-2 Trieste II : An updated bathyscaphe design, it participated in clandestine missions. Trieste II was retired in 1984.

Alvin-class submersibles
Originally designed for 6000 ft operation, and initially built to a similar design, Alvin and her sister submersibles have been subsequently, independently upgraded. Utilizing syntactic foam, these submersibles were more compact and maneuverable than earlier bathyscaphes like Trieste, although not as deep diving.

 * DSV-2 Alvin : Launched in June 1964 with an initial depth capability of 6000 ft; rebuilt in 1973 to 4500 m. Owned by the United States Navy and operated under secondment by the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution (WHOI) where it conducts science-oriented missions funded by the National Science Foundation (NSF), National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) and the Office of Naval Research (ONR). Alvin operates from R/V Atlantis, an AGOR-23 class vessel owned by the ONR and operated by WHOI under a charter party agreement. In 2004, the National Science Foundation funded a 6500 m capable replacement for Alvin, however the key components, such as a new titanium personnel hull, and funding were used to substantially rebuild Alvin in 2011 and 2020 instead. In 2022, Alvin was certified for 6,500 m operations.
 * DSV-3 Turtle : Alvin's identical sibling, launched in December 1968 and retired 1998. Owned and operated by the United States Navy.
 * DSV-4 Sea Cliff : Another Alvin-class DSV sub, launched in December 1968, retired in 1998, and returned to active service in September 2002. Since 1981, Sea Cliff has a depth capability of 6000 m, and is owned and operated by the United States Navy.
 * DSV-5 Nemo : Another Alvin-class DSV sub, launched in June 1970 and retired in 1998. Owned and operated by the United States Navy.

Star-class DSV

 * Star II
 * Star III

Both Star II and Star III were built by General Dynamics Electric Boat Division in Groton, Connecticut. Both were launched on May 3, 1966, and were used for civilian research.

NR-1–class DSVN

 * NR-1 : a decommissioned US Navy nuclear powered research and clandestine DSV submarine, which could roll on the seabed using large balloon wheels.

Aluminaut

 * Aluminaut : a DSV made completely of aluminum by the Reynolds Metals Aluminum Company, for the US Navy, once held the submarine deep diving record. It is no longer operational.

Deepsea Challenger

 * Deepsea Challenger : a DSV made by the Acheron Project Pty Ltd, has reached Challenger Deep, the world's deepest seabed.

Limiting Factor

A submersible commissioned by Caladan Oceanic and designed and built by Triton Submarines of Sebastian, Florida. On December 19, 2018, it was the first crewed submersible to reach the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean, or 8,376 meters in the Brownson Deep, thus making it the deepest diving, currently operational submersible. In August 2019, the submersible and its pilot, Victor Vescovo, completed the "Five Deeps Expedition" with its support ship, the DSSV Pressure Drop, becoming the first submersible to visit the bottom of all five of the world's oceans. Earlier that same month, a team of explorers and scientists used Limiting Factor to visit the wreck of the RMS Titanic in the North Atlantic Ocean. On March 31, 2021, Caladan Oceanic announced having re-located, surveyed, and filmed the wreck of the World War II destroyer USS Johnston (DD-557), sunk on October 25, 1944, in the Battle off Samar (in the Philippine Sea off Samar Island). Johnston lies at depth of 21,180 ft, making Limiting Factor's expedition the deepest wreck dive in history.

Priz-class DSRV

 * Priz : a DSRV class of five ships built by the USSR and Russia. The titanium-hulled Priz class are capable of diving to 1000 m. These mini-submarines can ferry up to 20 people for very brief periods of time (in case of a rescue mission) or operate submerged for two to three days with a regular crew of three to four specialists. In early 2005, the Russian AS-28 Priz vessel was trapped undersea and subsequently freed by a British ROV in a successful international rescue effort.

Mir

 * Mir : a strictly civilian (research) class of two DSVs which were manufactured in Finland for the USSR. These bathyscaphe-derived vessels can carry three people down to depths of 6000 m. After visiting and filming the RMS Titanic's wreck, the two Mir submersibles and their support ship were loaned to a US Pacific trench surveying mission in the late 1990s and made important discoveries concerning sulphuric based life in "black smokers".

Kalitka-class DSVN

 * AS-12 : a Russian counterpart to the American NR-1 clandestine nuclear DSV, is a relatively large, deep-diving nuclear submarine of 2,000 tons submerged displacement that is intended for oceanographic research and clandestine missions. It has a titanium pressure hull consisting of several conjoined spheres and able to withstand tremendous pressure — during the 2012 research mission it routinely dove to 2500 to 3000 m, with maximum depth being said to be approximately 6000 m. Despite the three-month mission time allowed by its nuclear reactor and ample food stores it usually operates in conjunction with a specialized tender, a refurbished Delta III-class submarine BS-136 Orenburg, which has its missile shafts removed and fitted with a special docking cradle on its bottom.

Konsul-class DSV

 * Konsul : a class of Russian military DSVs currently deployed onboard the Russian oceanographic research ship Yantar. It is reported that the submersible and its sister sub Rus are used to conduct seafloor surveillance of marine communications cables and western underwater surveillance devices. They are somewhat smaller than the Mir's, accommodating a crew of two instead of three, but are purely domestically produced vessels and have a higher maximum depth due to their titanium pressure hulls: during the tests the original Konsul dove to 6270 m.

Nautile

 * Nautile : a DSV owned by Ifremer, the French Research Institute for Exploitation of the Sea. The titanium-hulled Nautile is capable of diving to 6000 m.

Shinkai

 * DSV Shinkai : JAMSTEC (Japan Agency for Marine-Earth Science and Technology) operated a DSV series called Shinkai ("Deep Sea"). The latest DSV is Shinkai 6500 which could submerge to 6500 m with three crew members. JAMSTEC was operating a ROV called Kaikō, which was able to submerge to 11000 m, but was lost at sea in May 2003.

Pisces-class DSV

 * Pisces-class DSV : three-person research submersibles built by International Hydrodynamics of Vancouver in British Columbia with a maximum operating depth of 2000 m capable of dive durations of 7 to 10 hours. A total of 10 were built and are representative of late 1960s deep-ocean submersible design. Two (Pisces IV and Pisces V) are currently operated by National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and the first production vehicle is on display in Vancouver. Pisces VI is undergoing retrofit.

Sea Pole-class bathyscaphe
Bathyscaphe series designed by the People's Republic of China, and there are three derivatives known to exist by 2010:
 * Sea Pole-class bathyscaphe : 1 built, 2nd unit developed into Jiaolong (Described below)
 * Jiaolong-class bathyscaphe : Subclass of Sea Pole class, 1 built.
 * Harmony-class bathyscaphe: Subclass of Jiaolong class, 1 built.

Fendouzhe DSV

 * Fendouzhe, or Striver-class: a Chinese DSV that dove to an estimated depth of 10,909 meters in the Mariana Trench on November 10, 2020, the deepest ever for a Chinese submersible. It was supported by its mother ship, the Tansuo-1 (Exploration-1) and its development began in 2016. The chief designer of the sub, Liu Yeyao, and two other Chinese oceanauts made the descent in what was the first three-person, welded titanium capsule to venture to full ocean depth.

Deep Sea Warrior bathyscaphe

 * Deep sea warrior or "Shen-Hai Yong-Shi": developed by China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation in 2017 and capable of diving up to a depth of 4,500 meters.

Ictineu 3

 * Ictineu 3 : a three-person crewed DSV. The hull is made of inox steel and it has a large 1200 mm semi-spheric acrylic glass viewport. It is designed to reach depths of 1200 m, thus being the ninth-deepest submersible, and it is capable of diving during 10 hours using li-ion batteries.

Matsya 6000

 * Matsya 6000 DSV : an Indian under-development crewed deep-submergence vehicle intended to be utilised for deep sea exploration of rare minerals in the Indian Ocean. It is capable of diving down to a depth of 6,000 m. First uncrewed trial was conducted on 27 October 2021 where the 'personnel sphere' was lowered to a depth of 600 m, off the coast of Chennai.

Titan
Titan, previously called Cyclops 2, was an experimental submersible that imploded while transporting tourists to visit the wreckage of the Titanic in 2023. The submersible was created and operated by OceanGate. It was the first privately-owned submersible with a claimed maximum depth of 4,000 m (13,000 ft), and the first completed crewed submersible with a hull constructed of titanium and carbon fiber composite materials.
 * Titan

After testing with dives to its maximum intended depth in 2018 and 2019, the original composite hull of Titan developed fatigue damage and was replaced by 2021. In that year, OceanGate began transporting paying customers to the wreck of the Titanic, completing several dives to the wreck site in 2021 and 2022.

On June 18, 2023, Titan imploded during a dive to the Titanic. All five occupants of the submersible were killed. OceanGate had lost contact with Titan and contacted authorities later that day after the submersible was overdue for return. A massive international search and rescue operation ensued and ended on June 22, when debris from Titan was discovered about 1,600 feet (500 metres) from the bow of the Titanic.

Other DSV bathyscaphes

 * Bathyscaphe Archimède : French-made bathyscaphe, operated around the time of the Trieste.
 * FNRS-4

Deepest explorers

 * 1) 🇺🇸 DSV Limiting Factor – 11,000 m
 * 2) 🇨🇭 BATHYSCAPHE Trieste – 11,000 m
 * 3) 🇦🇺 Deepsea Challenger – 11,000 m
 * 4) 🇨🇳 Fendouzhe – 11,000 m
 * 5) 🇫🇷 Archimède – 9,500 m
 * 6) 🇨🇳 Jiaolong – 7,000 m
 * 7) 🇯🇵 DSV Shinkai 6500 – 6,500 m
 * 8) 🇷🇺 Konsul – 6,500 m
 * 9) 🇺🇸 DSV Alvin – 6,500 m
 * 10) 🇺🇸 DSV Sea Cliff – 6,000m
 * 11) 🇷🇺  MIR – 6,000 m
 * 12) 🇫🇷 Nautile – 6,000 m

 * Figures rounded to nearest 500 metres

title: Deep-submergence vehicle


text: Category:Snack food manufacturers of the United States


text: Category:12 Stones albums

title: Category:12 Stones albums


text:
Talk:Special Air Service Regiment

War crimes & introduction
Belevalo, Thewolfchild and Nick-D, there's probably enough to and fro in recent edit summaries to start a section here on the topic of whether war crimes investigations should be mentioned in the introduction of the article. For my part, I think a brief mention is justifiable as WP:MOSLEAD says the intro should "summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies". I'd say the controversy is prominent enough given the extent of coverage in reliable sources during recent years. Others may want to argue any such mention in the intro would give the matter undue weight but I'm yet to be convinced. Having said that, I'm also wary of recentism given the ongoing news stories about the matter. (I found a similar debate at the talk page for the Parachute Regiment from 2012 but it's not particularly illuminating. Let's see if we can keep it more civil than they did.) Meticulo (talk) 16:16, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I've just restored this material, as no reasons have been given for deleting it. Per WP:MOSLEAD the lead should summarise the key issues noted in the article, of which this is clearly one: it is the subject of a dedicated sub-section, as well as the Brereton Report article. The war crimes investigations are hugely important in the history of the SASR, as they led to a damning report which has attracted huge media coverage, the establishment of a dedicated government office to prepare a prosecution case and serious consideration by the ADF about disbanding the entire unit. The lead, and the rest of the article, should provide a rounded view of the topic, so deleting the war crimes material from the lead while retaining material on relatively obscure topics such as the deployment of a small number of personnel to Somalia is to descend to the level of fanboy type coverage. Part of the problem here might be that the lead is too short - only a para isn't much for a good quality article of this length - so the solution might be to expand the lead to better reflect the topics covered in the body of the article. Nick-D (talk) 09:40, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I oppose the addition. Can't find another military unit that has controversies mentioned in the lead. Shouldn't be a surprise, since the work that these organizations do, the usual violence or killings would be 90% of the lead. Worse, it's an ongoing controversy. The issue isn't even resolved conclusively. Belevalo (talk) 10:21, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * It's a scandal that almost lead to the disbandment of the regiment, similar to that which brought the end of the Canadian Airborne Regiment. - wolf  13:04, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The CAR was disbanded because of the controversy that's why it warrants a mention in lead. SARS wasn't and just like DEVGRU, SEALs, Alpha, 101st airborne etc, doesn't mention wartime controversies, otherwise, given the divisive nature of war, all military units would have an incentive to be rewritten by opposing factions as part of a propaganda campaign as part of the information war. Belevalo (talk) 15:18, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Were any of the units you mention involved in a scandal that had tptb considering disbandment? - wolf  17:38, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * 1st Foreign Parachute Regiment also mentions the unit was disbanded in the lead. However, unlike the French and Canadian units, the SASR hasn't actually been disbanded. Perhaps a better guide might be the German-language article on the Kommando Spezialkräfte where the final paragraph of the lead translates as "Especially towards the end of the 2010s, the KSK repeatedly made headlines due to incidents of extremism, so that it was reformed in 2020" (according to Google Translate, at least). I'd also point to WP:PRIOR which lists, as an argument to avoid in edit wars, "There is a longstanding consensus about how to treat this issue". And although not policy, the essay Other stuff exists might point a way forward in saying, "...arguing in favor of consistency among Wikipedia articles is not inherently wrong – it is to be preferred. Only when the precedent is itself in conflict with policy, guidelines or common sense is it wrong to argue that the precedent should be followed elsewhere..." Meticulo (talk) 14:33, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * ...and I've now posted requests for comment at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian politics and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history. Meticulo (talk) 12:53, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * ...and also at Australian Wikipedians' notice board. Meticulo (talk) 12:04, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * This has been a huge multi-year scandal involving a massive inquiry and at this point I think it does warrant mention in the lead. I don't think the significance is going anywhere any time soon. The Drover's Wife (talk) 13:49, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * My opinion is no need for that in the introduction of the article. Undue weight pretty much. Only if the whole regiment is disbanded but only if it is clearly connected with that event which led to that, but otherwise no. Some members/employees of many (if not all) organizations, political parties, city councils, hospitals, charities, schools, banks etc did some stuff but not all goes in the introduction of the articles. 109.93.121.227 (talk) 03:40, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * You wouldn't happen to be Belevalo logged out would you? It's a bit odd for an IP to find a discussion like this. Nick-D (talk) 09:14, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * No, but recovering from Covid19 can easily make a person to visit military history wikipedia project and some other wiki projects to see if some article is cool to read or what people talk about. And btw no connection with Australia or anything similar. I'm one medical worker from Europe so I'm kind of totally neutral to this without any bias. I don't have any problem to show my identity to some administrator at this place, of course via e-mail or something. I hope it was not wrong to write my opinion here in this discussion. 109.93.121.227 (talk) 10:02, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * OK, sorry for jumping to conclusions, and best wishes for your recovery. Nick-D (talk) 10:04, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you, I will be ok, but already that recovering took a lot of time, it was heavy. But what to do. Was doing what I had and it's my job and proud about it and I got it, but everything will be ok. 109.93.121.227 (talk) 10:24, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * To add also about this topic, after some thinking I stay with my opinion even stronger, every organization, any working place, could and probably have someone, some members or people who are employed who do or did bad stuff. For example, if this unit is by the official court described as a criminal organization (all or majority of members did bad stuff), or disbanded with some scandal, of course no problem, but like this no, I am against that. 109.93.121.227 (talk) 10:28, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * 109.93.121.227, have you read WP:MOSLEAD? It says in part, "The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies", and, "All but the shortest articles should start with introductory text (the "lead"), which establishes significance, includes mention of significant criticism or controversies" (both emphases mine). Meticulo (talk) 03:20, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * This is an encyclopedia. If this unit is by the official court or inquiry described as a criminal organization (all or majority of members did bad stuff), or disbanded with scandal, of course no problem, that would be prominent or significant, otherwise no. 109.93.121.227 (talk) 11:08, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I disagree that an organisation needs to be outlawed or shut down before any controversies about it can be called prominent or significant. Facebook, for example. Meticulo (talk) 11:52, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * This is a different type of organization, I was pretty clear, undue weight, recent and this is encyclopedia. To be included in the lead requires prominent and significant controversy which lead to big changes that affected the whole unit as renaming or dissolving or to be clear that wrongdoing was policy of the whole unit from top to bottom. 109.93.121.227 (talk) 12:33, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

(break)
It seems the disputed sentence is "An inquiry that was completed in 2020 found that some members of the regiment had committed war crimes in Afghanistan." This is not really helpful; the matter is complicated and needs explanations. There's a section "Alleged war crimes", easily accessible from the ToC, so interested readers can jump there. Adding that sentence to the lead now is WP:RECENTISM. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:41, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree totally "the matter is complicated and needs explanations" and there is content the the body of this article about. Also, recentism (for now without huge impact on this unit as whole for the lead) and undue weight (we don't put in the lead for example about some members who are recipients of the Victoria Cross or about performance in some successful operations). This is about the whole unit and who knows, if this inquiry or maybe some other, one day lead to this unit is dissolved or for example renamed, then that would be one good helpful inclusion in the lead but otherwise nop. 109.93.121.227 (talk) 12:53, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I think MOS:LEAD is very clear. There is a current controversy and it should be mentioned in the lede briefly. If the consensus is that there are allegations rather than proof/convictions at this point (and I haven't followed it carefully enough to have a strong view on this), then the lede should not overstate the situation and stick to the language along the lines of "Following allegations in YYYY that some members of the regiment committed war crimes in Afghanistan, investigations are currently being undertaken which may lead to prosecutions of individuals" and let the details be in the body of the article. I don't believe WP:UNDUE is applicable here. Mentioning the allegations is not a case of giving too much importance to "minority opinions" but are matters that have been the subject of a 4-year inquiry by a NSW Judge and the Inspector General of the Australian Defence Force and which the Prime Minister has said should be dealt with under the Australian justice system. I think it will not only look like a whitewash but actually be one, if we don't follow our own policies. And given this conversation is public as are the article history and edit summaries, I really don't think we want the next headline to be "Australian Wikipedia editors connive to cover up SAS war crimes". Kerry (talk) 04:55, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * fear of tabloid slander isn't part of the wiki MO, especially regarding and ongoing and divisive issue. Either way it's "not covered up", the trial is mentioned in the page and shows up in the jump link list. Belevalo (talk) 16:42, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I and others have named and discussed the issue from a number of policy standpoints. So far you have not provided a single policy-based reason to support your preference. If you have one, please state it. Regarding recentism, WP:RECENT is about articles constructed quickly from or largely dominated by breaking news. This regiment is hardly breaking news. Even the allegations of war crimes are not breaking news. If people want to see an example of WP:RECENT, look at the Lindt Cafe siege during its first 1000 edits which occurred within the first 24 hours based on media reports from reporters who basically didn't know what was happening in the cafe any more than anyone else did. Wikipedians were arguing if it was terrorism or not, if the gunman was Islamic or not, etc. It just went crazy. Subsequently the article has been reworked to take a long-term perspective on it following the inquiries etc, but it's a good example of what WP:RECENT is warning us against. Kerry (talk) 08:06, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * this is not a terrorist attack page. this is a military unit. military units have decades if not centuries of history, therefore even big events rarely get mentioned in the lead, unless it was a last stand or destruction type of situation. Given the type of page, this even would not only give undue weight, due to the units role in society. also it's not common practice on wiki. DEVGRU, 101st airborne, special forces, spetsnaz, etc all have had controversial or heroic events in their history. furthermore, if we mention this tragedy in the lead, should we mention all the stories of 48 people killed during operations in the lead, or the 20 other who died under different circumstances. and this is not a cover up. IT'S IN THE PAGE! unless you have the attention span of a bird, you'll find the information in the page. it appears that you want a bashfull headline type of lead. Belevalo (talk) 10:43, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Kerry asked for a policy or guideline that would support your position. You still have not provided one. You have, however, violated a few; see WP:FALLACY, WP:OSE, WP:NPA & WP:EDITSNOTEDITORS. (fyi) - wolf  11:26, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * It gives MASSIVE undue weight. especially considering it's been used as propaganda by hostile regimes against australia. Belevalo (talk) 12:17, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * "...if we mention this tragedy in the lead, should we mention..." etc. I'd say yes, the hazardous nature of the unit's training could also be mentioned in the intro, referencing the Black Hawk accident. Both this and the war crimes investigations are arguably as significant in the unit's history as a deployment to Somalia, which does rate a mention in the lead. Meticulo (talk) 14:12, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * it already alludes to it with the "It has taken part in operations in ...", which broadly includes everything discussed above (as it shood) and are then expanded in the main article. including the alleged war crimes. Remember lead is a very broad summary, not a duplicate that makes main section redundant. Belevalo (talk) 20:36, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The Black Hawk crash took place during an exercise (Exercise Day Rotor 96). An exercise is not an operation. Meticulo (talk) 00:25, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

GA...?
Is this article still considered a good article? There have been substantial changes made (679 edits, 100+ users) since GA status was added back in June 2014. Thoughts? -  wolf  18:14, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Adding SAS Australia: Who Dares Wins to hatnote
The SAS Australia disambiguation page still only has two articles linked in it, even though it was created over two years ago as a result of this discussion. As this is the case, should WP:ONEOTHER be invoked, with the SAS Australia: Who Dares Wins article being added to the about template in the article, replacing the SAS Australia disambiguation page link. Happily888 (talk) 11:54, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Special Air Service Regiment


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Keian Uprising

The Keian Uprising (慶安事件) was a failed coup d'état attempt carried out against the Tokugawa shogunate of Japan in 1651, by a number of rōnin. Though it failed, the event is historically significant as an indication of a wider problem of disgruntled rōnin throughout the country at the time. Masterminded by Yui Shōsetsu and Marubashi Chūya, the uprising is named after the Keian era in which it took place.

According to strategist Yui's plan, Marubashi would take Edo Castle, the headquarters of the shogunate, using barrels of gunpowder to begin a fire which would rage through Edo, the capital. In the confusion, with the authorities distracted by firefighting efforts, the rōnin would storm the castle and kill key high officials.

At the same time, Yui would lead a second group and seize the Tokugawa stronghold in Sunpu (modern-day city of Shizuoka). Further action was planned for Osaka Castle and Kyoto. They timed their rebellion to take advantage of the death of shōgun Tokugawa Iemitsu, as his successor, Ietsuna, was still a child. The conspirators aimed to force the shogunate to relax its policies of seizing hans and dispossessing daimyōs, which under Iemitsu had deprived tens of thousands of samurai of position and income, adding them to the ranks of rōnin.

Ultimately, however, the uprising failed when the conspirators' plan was discovered. Marubashi Chūya fell ill, and, talking through his fever dreams, revealed secrets which made their way to the authorities by the time the rebels were ready to move. Marubashi was arrested and executed in Edo; Yui Shōsetsu escaped that fate by committing seppuku, in Sunpu, upon finding himself surrounded by police. Several of the rebels committed suicide alongside him. The families of the conspirators as well were then tortured and killed by the authorities, as was usual at the time; several were crucified.

In the aftermath of the suppression of the uprising, the shogunal Elders (Rōjū) met to discuss the origins of the uprising, and how to prevent similar events from occurring in the future. Originally, most of the Elders sought to take severe measures, including expelling all rōnin from the city, but they were eventually convinced by Abe Tadaaki to take a more rational tack. He suggested reducing the number of rōnin opposed to the shogunate, not through expulsion, but by introducing more favorable policies. In particular, he convinced the council that the shogunate ought to do away with the law of escheatment, and to work to help rōnin settle into proper jobs. Forcefully expelling a great number of people from the city, he argued, would only serve to create more opposition to the government.

Far from being an isolated incident, the Keian Uprising was followed by an event the following year involving several hundred rōnin, and another soon afterwards in Sado. These were not directly related, that is, none of the persons involved were the same, nor did they follow a single leader or organized ideology. Despite this, or perhaps because of it, it is significant to note how widespread the distaste for the shogunate was at this time, and the degree of the "problem" of the rōnin throughout the country.

The tale was then retold in a novel, Keian Taiheiki (慶安太平記), and in a number of Kabuki plays, the most famous of which, also called Keian Taiheiki, was written by renowned playwright Kawatake Mokuami.

title: Keian Uprising


text: User talk:66.254.244.121

title: User talk:66.254.244.121


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Dave Rowntree

David Alexander De Horne Rowntree (born 8 May 1964) is an English musician, politician, solicitor, composer and animator. He is best known as the drummer for the rock band Blur.

In his political career, Rowntree served on the Norfolk County Council from 2017 to 2021 representing the Labour Party, and unsuccessfully stood for Parliament as a Labour candidate in the 2010 and 2024 general elections.

Early life
David Alexander De Horne Rowntree was born in Colchester, Essex, at Colchester Maternity Hospital on 8 May 1964, to musical parents – Susan, a viola player, and John, a sound engineer at the BBC. He has an older sister named Sara. He attended the Gilberd School in Colchester during the week, and the Landermere Music School, Thorpe-le-Soken, at weekends, where he studied percussion. He played percussion with his father in the Colchester Silver Band, a brass band. After leaving school he studied for a Higher National Diploma (HND) in Computer Science at Thames Polytechnic, and started his career as a computer programmer for Colchester Borough Council.

Blur
Rowntree played in bands with Graham Coxon while they were growing up in Colchester. He also knew Coxon's father, who taught jazz classes at Landermere. In 1989, Coxon introduced Rowntree to Damon Albarn, who was forming a band around Goldsmiths, University of London. Rowntree was asked to join and left his job to move to London. With the addition of Alex James, and after two name changes, the band settled on Blur and were signed to Food Records, which was distributed through EMI. EMI later acquired Food Records and Blur were absorbed into EMI.

Beagle 2 Mars mission
In 1998 Rowntree's life-long fascination with space led him to get involved in the Beagle 2 Mars mission. The previous year the European Space Agency (ESA) had announced its first planetary mission, an orbiter named the Mars Express. The Open University's Prof Colin Pillinger proposed it should carry a lander dedicated to looking for life and conducting scientific analyses.

Rowntree and fellow band member Alex James became involved after taking a behind the scenes tour at Houston's NASA space centre. They were struck by how many of the people they met there were British and wondered why they had to go to America to do space research and work in the industry. When they got back to the UK, they came across Beagle 2 while looking for UK space projects and pledged to support it. At that time, the cost of the lander project was estimated at £25 million and did not have wide support.

Rowntree and James joined the Beagle 2 team in 1998 to help with PR. They used their platform to help promote the project. Their support attracted high-profile support from the artist Damien Hirst and industry and financial backers. And after years of lobbying, the UK Government and ESA agreed to help finance the project. The Mars Express mission, carrying Beagle 2, was launched in June 2003. It carried a signature tune written by Blur to be beamed back from Mars to announce the lander's arrival and one of Hirst's trademark spot paintings to be used for the calibration of Beagle 2's cameras. The Beagle 2 lost contact with earth but was spotted on Mars' surface ten years later by the UK Space Agency in images taken by a NASA orbiter.

Rowntree says: "In the same way that Damien Hirst got the first artwork on Mars, we got the first music on Mars."

XFM radio
In 2014 Rowntree started as a presenter for Global Radio's alternative rock radio station XFM (now Radio X) with a regular show on Sunday nights.

On his first show he played songs by John Lennon, Elbow and The Polyphonic Spree, interspersed with discussions with his studio friend, "researcher George", on "nerdy" topics like Mars.

Video
On 31 July 2018, Rowntree appeared in the video for Slaves' released single, "Chokehold", as a drummer auditioning for a part in the band.

Podcast
Rowntree hosts The Dave Rowntree Podcast Show on Spotify with "researcher George". The first series was six episodes long, starting with an episode of Rowntree's "go to" music for challenging times released in November 2020.

Solo career
In November 2021, Rowntree signed a deal with Cooking Vinyl for his first solo record. In a statement, Rowntree said, "As a kid I used to spend hours spinning the dial on my radio, dreaming of escape to all the places whose exotic stations I heard. I've tried to make an album like that – tuning through the spectrum, stopping at each song telling a story about a turning point in my life, then spinning the dial and moving on."

His first solo single, "London Bridge", was released on 5 July 2022.

Rowntree's first solo album, Radio Songs, was released on 20 January 2023.

Animation
Rowntree is a computer animator and owned an animation company called Nanomation for eleven years. Clients included advertising agencies and The 11 O'Clock Show. He also directed two series of the South Park-esque animated show Empire Square, which made its TV debut on Channel 4 on 18 February 2005.

Non-photorealistic rendering
Rowntree has an interest in computer graphics and has contributed to three research papers on topics related to non-photorealistic rendering. The papers look at translating video to animation using novel techniques to track and visualise movement.

Film and television
Rowntree also works in film and TV soundtrack composition. He and Ian Arber composed the music and score for the 2018 Bros documentary Bros: After the Screaming Stops. He also worked on the BBC series The Capture, which premiered in 2019 and Netflix's science fiction series The One (March 2021).

Law
Rowntree trained to become a solicitor when Blur took a hiatus in 2006. He worked in the criminal department of London law firm Kingsley Napley, a firm of solicitors based in Moorgate, London.

In July 2017, he was awarded an honorary doctorate in law by Greenwich University, becoming an Honorary Doctor of Laws (HonLLD).

Labour candidate and councillor
Rowntree has been a keen activist and supporter of the Labour Party since becoming a member in 2002, and has been chair of London's West End branch. In April 2007, he unsuccessfully contested the safe Conservative seat of Marylebone High Street on Westminster City Council. In July 2008, he fought the Labour-held seat of Church Street, but was unsuccessful again.

In February 2008, he was selected by the Cities of London and Westminster Constituency Labour Party to stand against the incumbent Conservative MP Mark Field at the 2010 general election; Rowntree was defeated at that election. In 2011, he sought selection as the Labour candidate for Norwich South, but lost to Clive Lewis, a journalist and former soldier, who went on to be elected as the constituency's MP.

In the Norfolk County Council election on 4 May 2017, Rowntree was elected as county councillor for the University ward in Norwich. He stood down before the 2021 election, due to the COVID-19 pandemic: in a statement on his website, he said "It has been a joy and a privilege to represent the residents in University Ward, and I've made friendships here that will last a lifetime. I hope that when this is all over, I can get back involved somehow."

In March 2024, Rowntree was selected as Labour's prospective parliamentary candidate for the constituency of Mid Sussex in the 2024 general election. The seat is presently held by the Conservative Mims Davies. Rowntree's campaign focused on housing and town centre regeneration.

Political views
Rowntree is a committed opponent of the death penalty and patron of Amicus, an organisation that provides legal representation to people on death row in the United States.

In August 2014, Rowntree was one of 200 public figures who were signatories to a letter to The Guardian opposing Scottish independence in the run-up to September's referendum on that issue.

Campaigns
Rowntree has campaigned against prosecution of internet music filesharers. He is a member of the Advisory Council of the Open Rights Group, a United Kingdom-based digital rights NGO. When asked on Blur's website how he felt about their single "Out of Time" being leaked on the internet before its release, he replied "I'd rather it gushed".

Rowntree is a founding director of the Featured Artists Coalition.

In May 2016, he organised a celebrity "Star Boot Sale" to raise funds for mobile health clinics to help Syrian refugees and host Jordanians in need. Stars manning the stalls included Hot Chip, Melanie C, KT Tunstall and Badly Drawn Boy, with Phil Daniels as auctioneer for special lots, like Kylie Minogue's handbag.

Other interests
Rowntree obtained a full pilot's licence in 1995. He has held a foundation licence for amateur radio in the UK since 2012, upgrading to a full licence in 2016. His callsign is M0IEG.

Personal life
In 1994, Rowntree married Paola Marra, a Canadian woman. They divorced in the early 2000s. In 2007, he was dating Michelle de Vries.

In the early 1990s, Rowntree was a heavy drinker. He stopped drinking alcohol in 1993 after a particularly heavy drinking session with members of the band Siouxsie and the Banshees. However, several years later, he began a cocaine habit. This led to a public incident in 2003 when, during a TV interview of Blur for MuchMusic by Canadian journalist Nardwuar the Human Serviette, Rowntree was seen mocking and physically intimidating Nardwuar throughout the interview. Rowntree has apologised several times since for his behaviour, saying that "the day after a cocaine binge I'd sometimes fly into a murderous rage, and that this was the case on that day". Nardwuar accepted Rowntree's apology on Twitter. By 2007, Rowntree stated that he had stopped using drugs and was "active in the recovery community". He keeps a clip of the interview on his phone, to watch if he ever considers relapsing into drug use. Nardwuar later said of Rowntree's apology "It’s so nice of him. I love the fact that someone is using my interview for motivational purposes."

Rowntree is a trustee on the board of Release, a charity that campaigns for evidence-based drug policies founded on principles of public health.

title: Dave Rowntree