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Bertram de Criol

Sir Bertram de Criol (Criel, Crioill, Cyroyl, or Kerrial, etc.) (died 1256) was a senior and trusted Steward and diplomat to King Henry III. He served as Constable and Keeper of Dover Castle, Keeper of the Coast and of the Cinque Ports, Keeper of the receipts, expenses and wardships of the archbishopric of Canterbury, Constable of the Tower of London and Sheriff of Kent.

Background and origins
The historian Nicholas Vincent agrees with the Duchess of Cleveland in deriving the de Criol family from Criel-sur-Mer, Seine-Maritime, though Planché favoured Creil, Oise, and Dunlop offered Creully, Calvados. In Battle Abbey Roll lists the Duchesne recension has the name as "Escriols", the Anglicized "Kyriel" appearing in the earlier Auchinleck manuscript. Criel-sur-Mer is likely, because Robert, younger son of Robert, Count of Eu (d. c 1092), obtained it from his father, whose possession of Criel is shown from a charter to the Abbey of St-Michel du Tréport; in the Domesday Survey, Robert de Cruell held Esseborne (Ashburnham), Sussex, from his kinsman the Count of Eu, governor of the Rape of Hastings, and from these the de Criols and the ancient Ashburnham family are both supposed to descend. "Bartholomew" de Criol witnessed the confirmation charter of Henry, Count of Eu to Battle Abbey before 1140.

Bertram, or Bertrand, de Criol was the eldest son of John de Criol and his wife Margery. John is known principally for a grant of the advowson of Sarre, in Thanet (to Leeds Priory, Kent) in 1194, title to which he had (perhaps by marriage) inherited from Elias de Crevecoeur, (son of that priory's founder), who had previously made a similar grant in 1138, confirmed by his Crevecoeur descendants. He may be the same John de Crioile alias Crihuil who granted to Henry de Cornhill his land and tenement at Wyvermerse (Essex ) in c. 1179–82 in the presence of Prince John, Ranulf de Glanville, Hubert Walter, Roger fitzReinfrid and others, a residual claim to which was released to Hugh de Neville after 1216.

Whether the identification of Cecilia, wife of Simon d'Avranches (Lord of Folkestone, died c. 1203) as a de Criol is correct, or whether she was the daughter of Simon son of Simon de Brixworth and Beatrice de Fraxineto, is undecided. Bertram de Crioll appears in the scutage for Poitiers in 1214. He has half a knight's fee in Sarre, from the Archbishop, in 1210–1212. Bertram's connection with '"his manor of Sarre" is indicated by a market granted by the king in 1219 and regranted in 1226, for which Bertram de Crioil was to pay a palfrey. "The Salt Water swellith yet up at a Creeke a Myle and more towards a Place called Sarre," says John Leland, "which was the comune Fery when Thanet was full iled."

Castle politics
In 1221 Bertram de Criol, together with Thomas de Blundeville, Osbert Giffard and others, witnessed a charter of Hubert de Burgh, Chief Justiciar of England granting the church of Portslade, West Sussex, to St. Radegund's Abbey at Bradsole near Dover. In that year Hubert married Margaret of Scotland, and (at King Henry's coming of age) in April 1228 he was granted the castles of Dover, Canterbury, Rochester and Montgomery for life.

De Criol, a member of Hubert's household, became acting constable for him at Dover, where he carried out works in 1229, he and Robert de Auberville, castellan of Hastings and Warden of the ports from Portsmouth to Sandwich, being favoured by a writ de intendendo addressed to the barons of the Cinque Ports. In 1228 the king appointed him, with Alan Puignant, keepers of the vacant archbishopric of Canterbury, to manage revenues, payments and estates. With Stephen de Segrave and Ralph and William Briton, and many of the bishops, he witnessed the grant and confirmation of Hubert's gift of Tunstall, Kent, to the archbishop in 1229.

Shortly before the king's departure on a military expedition to Poitou in the spring of 1230, in which de Burgh accompanied him, an order was issued that Margaret was to be admitted to any of his castles without hindrance, and to have freedom of residence, and access to the wine cellars, at her pleasure. However, in October de Criol, who had been ordered not to let anyone in, stoutly refused to admit her to Dover Castle. As a result, he was dismissed, and in November he was deprived of his wardships by the king's orders, including an estate at Kettleburgh in Suffolk, held in bail for Guy de la Val, and the manor of Moulsford, Berkshire, held during an heir's minority, which was disputed with John Marshall.

De Criol and the king were reconciled in February 1231, and he was rehabilitated under the stricture that he could not plead his cause against de Burgh before the king's court. In ordering the return of Moulsford, the king owned that the disseisin had been "at the king's will", a seeming trespass upon those rights in Magna Carta upon which de Burgh himself had insisted. De Criol was appointed Sheriff of Kent in June 1232: Hubert's fall from grace followed weeks later.

In September de Criol had custody of Dover Castle under new auspices. He was at once entrusted with wardship of the lands and heirs of Simon de Chelefeld, a Kentish justiciar, pending their settlement upon Eleanor, Countess of Pembroke in December. Similarly he held Tonbridge Castle for the king until the wardship of Richard de Clare in his minority was settled upon Richard de la Lade in June 1234. His presence is recorded among the principals at Canterbury on 2 April 1234 at the consecration of Edmund Rich as Archbishop.

De Criol was appointed to the custody of the Cinque Ports in May 1236, the year of the King's marriage. Ordered to deliver Rochester Castle to John de Cobham he had to yield the November issues to Cobham for accounting, and, being appointed Sheriff of Kent, he was to find county funds for repair works there. During 1237 his London agent Robert Hurlizun mediated delivery of 20,000 quarrels to him at Dover, and later that year he had two of the king's galleys refitted and housed at Winchelsea. Works continued at Dover in 1238. During the summer his men had custody of a Saracen at Canterbury Castle.

Constable of the Tower, 1240-1242
At Midsummer 1239 de Criol became Sheriff of Essex, answering jointly with Richard de Grey for the second half of the year. On the morrow of St Edmund (21 November) 1239 the king met with his council at Winchester, Stephen de Segrave, brother Geoffrey his Almoner, Bertram de Criol his Seneschal, Master Simon de Steyland, Geoffrey le Despencer and other loyal men, and decreed a reform to moneylending arrangements between the Jews and the Christians of London. In December the king instructed his Treasurer Hugh de Pateshull, Phillip de Assellis and his fellow Justices of the Jews, Peter Grimbald and the Mayor, to send away the present Keepers of the "Archae" (chests, or "arks", in which details of transactions were kept) and their clerks. Instead they, together with the Constable of the Tower of London and two good men chosen by them, should elect two Christian men and two Jews of London to whom the keeping of the Archae should be committed, each to have his own key, and two sworn clerks. Detailed instructions were given for the management and custody of their chirographs, and other matters affecting Jewish residency and practise.

By the beginning of 1240 de Criol was Constable of the Tower of London, and he held the position until the middle of 1242, latterly with the assistance of Walter de Gray. Humphrey de Bohun succeeded him as Sheriff in Kent. In the vacancy following the departure of Edmund Rich, his keeping of the archbishopric was assisted by John Maunsell. The constabulary of the Tower had "rights thereto pertaining to the Jews". Records of the tallage of 20,000 marks upon the Jews of 1241 include de Criol's letter to Jeremiah de Caxton and William Hardel, as Justices of the Jews, concerning remittances to Mosses the son of Josce Crespin the chirographer.

As one of four keepers of the King's Treasure he brought the jewels of Leo de Melcstret to the Wardrobe and delivered large sums to the Treasurer William de Haverhull. In London he was among the dignitaries invited to witness the conveyance by Odo, melter in the king's Exchequer, of his rights to Edward son of Odo the goldsmith, as the grantor prepared to leave for the Holy Land. Late in 1241 he joined distinguished company to witness the king's grant to the Count of Aumale, and in January 1241/42 (at Westminster) witnessed the King's renewal of franchise to the city of Cork. De Criol was granted a fee in Everlond (Overland, in Elham, Kent, close to a royal park) which was forfeited by Master Simon de Steyland the king's clerk: and this de Criol's heir still retained in 1253.

War with France, 1242
In March 1242, in view of the king's French expedition, de Criol was re-appointed Sheriff of Kent and Constable of the castles of Dover and Rochester, and in April was ordered to hold Dover and to surrender it to no-one but the king himself, or (if the king should die) then to Eleanor the queen, or to one of her Savoy uncles not in the fealty of the King of France. The extent of de Criol's tenures of knight's fees in Kent at this date, and their fee-lords, can be read in the Testa de Nevill. In April de Criol was to test all the crossbows or ballistas at Dover and in the Tower for reliability. The Cinque Port barons were made intendant to de Criol as Constable at Dover. Custody of the archbishopric was granted to him jointly with Jeremiah de Caxton, de Criol himself freely taking responsibility before king and council for rendering accounts. He and Chancellor Ralph Neville surveyed the coast and arranged with the barons (including New Romney) for the defence of their ports.

He was to build four swift barges for the king, and to receive two galleys at Winchelsea sent from Bristol. The Lord Mayor of London was to send him 120 crossbowmen, and liveries were sent. Ships, crews and all the crossbowmen they had were summoned to him at Dover, five each from the bailiffs of Dunwich and Great Yarmouth, and four from Ipswich, Orford and Blakeney. Richard fitzReginald and Fulco fitzWarin were to follow his orders on land and sea, and to be ready at Winchester on 22 August. De Criol was not to impede the merchants of Brabant or of the Count of Flanders, but to take whatever provisions he could from the assets of the French king and of Henry Puchepap of Rye. Ten Winchelsea ships and a galley were to be sent to the king at Portsmouth, and then twenty from the Cinque Ports for the soldiers. In August he took securities from the Viscount de Beaumont, going into Scotland, against the possibility of betrayal. He delivered £100 to the barons of Winchelsea for their maintenance in the war.

De Criol and his clerk Henry de Wengham took in the king's share of booty brought from France to the Cinque Ports, Nicholas de Hadlo assisting, with authority over the port barons. He had to rectify many claims from Flanders and elsewhere for the return of wool and wine wrongly seized. He was to hear the complaints against men of Winchelsea at Shipwey, "the place that was of auncient time honested with the Plees and assemblies of the Five Portes." He brought Henry Puchepap to trial for receiving goods plundered from Flemish merchants. Security in his ports, and transport to and from France, emissary or mercantile, was strictly under his view by royal warrant. In the following February the barons of Winchelsea and the Cinque Ports were, with de Criol's counsel, "to furnish all the galleys they can to grieve the king's enemies by sea and land so long as the war lasts with France."

Croxton Kerrial, 1242
In May 1242 the King granted to de Criol and to his heirs the manor of Croxton (Croxton Kerrial, Leicestershire, named from this family) in part exchange for Kettleburgh (near Framlingham Castle), the formerly sequestrated manor. To this were added lands in the manor of Lechton, Sussex (probably Laughton), held by the king in bail from the Queen's uncle Peter II, Count of Savoy, to be held in interim by Bertram for the service of a pair of white gloves. Croxton manor had formerly been a possession of Hubert de Burgh's: the nearby Premonstratensian abbey of Croxton received repeated gifts from Henry, because the heart of his father King John was buried in the church of St John the Evangelist there. By 1246 Croxton manor had passed to Bertram's kinsman Nicholas de Crioll, who was granted a market and fair. But the heirs of Hamo de Valoignes, whom de Criol had in charge, he delivered to William de Cantilupe, to whom their marriages were granted.

Works and duties
An adjustment to scutage for Bertram and his sons was extended to John and Simon de Criol and to Nicholas de Hadlou. He received orders in April 1243 to prevent the embarcation of the Master of the Knights Templar in England to answer the summons of the Grand Master to Jerusalem. Four silver bowls were sent for him to place before the shrine of St Thomas at Canterbury.

Preparations for the marriage of Richard, Earl of Cornwall to the queen's sister Sanchia in November 1243 involved de Criol and Caxton in many duties. The hire of ships, boats and galleys, the wages of mariners and serjeants, etc., for the transport of Beatrice Countess of Provence, Sanchia, and their household, and the conveyance of wine from Sandwich to Dover and Canterbury were met from the Canterbury issues. A great sum was expended on candles for the Canterbury churches for the arrival of the Countess, and the keepers had the cost of her journey home. In December 1243 de Criol witnessed the covenant made between the King and Earl Richard. Payments were made for the carriage of many fowl and swans to the king's kitchen at Westminster, and for the king's huntsmen, over the next months.

Responsibility for Kentish works fell to the Sheriff during 1244, especially for a building to contain the king's engines at Dover, for the repair or rebuilding of houses for the king's galleys at Rye, and for the installation at Dover of the catapult, trebuchet and ram, but all under the supervision of de Criol as Constable. De Criol and Caxton saw to the repair of the gate buildings at Canterbury Castle. He was occupied with the king's interdictions: during the spring of 1244 armed Scotsmen were to be sought out and arrested, and merchant ships in the ports were not permitted to sail. A year later, religious persons of any kind arriving were to be held and searched for letters, and not permitted to proceed without the king's approval. In May 1246 he was to appoint custodians in every port to prevent English coin being taken out, and no ship, or anything from which a ship could be made, was to be sold to anyone in fealty to the King of France. He completed repairs to the walls at Rye and Winchelsea, and received contributions for his court at Shipway.

Meanwhile, the king sent gifts of bucks from the park at Elham, and Nicholas de Croill, royal groom ("vadlettus"), was sent hunting for them. Bertram received a goshawk from Hubert de Rewley, the king's fine for a market at Cattawade, by Orwell Haven. Liveried chaplains were appointed for divine service at Dover Castle in 1246, and in 1247 three silver chalices, a censer, and quantities of orphrey, samite and other precious cloths for making chasubles and dalmatics for the Castle chapels, including the pre-conquest church of St Mary in Castro, were supplied to de Criol. The King was then engaged in his new works at Westminster Abbey, and was soon to proclaim the Relic of the Holy Blood. Dover Castle's best hospitality, at the King's expense, was required for Baldwin II, Emperor of Constantinople, on his journey home in April 1247, but the Constable was to pay his whole passage. In August he was to prepare a good ship at Sandwich equipped for horses and men to be the king's messengers on a secret errand.

De Criol delivered the castles of Rochester and Canterbury to Nicholas de Ores, Sheriff of Kent, in November 1248. At Easter 1249 he, with two other knights, was sent to the Duchy of Gascony for four months on the king's service, being required to deliver £1000 by weight to Simon de Montfort, its viceroy. Nicholas de Crioll was in Gascony with him for the same period. He made arrangements for the transport of Earl Richard "and others of the king's faithful men on his errand over seas", and for two voyages of John de Newburgh (the king's chaplain) as king's messenger, in the following year.

In February 1251 a delegate for the bailiwick of the Cinque Ports was required of him to join the sheriffs in their commission into money counterfeiting and false exchange. Great were the arrangements of August and September 1252, when the port barons were to make ready 60 ships to cross from Portsmouth in the first week of October. As the crisis in Gascony came to a head, de Criol witnessed the King's mandate requiring support for a truce among that people, instructing them not to obey Simon de Montfort if he oppose it. After witnessing special privileges granted to William of Kilkenny, soon to be the king's Chancellor, in the summer of 1253 he was to prevent any count, baron or magnate leaving for France without royal licence. On 2 October Queen Eleanor and Earl Richard sent orders requiring him to oversee in person the preparation at Winchelsea and Rye of two ships and crews, armed with crossbowmen, to carry the king and his treasure ("thesaurus") to Gascony from Portsmouth 11 days later.

Services and rewards
Meanwhile, he was granted further wardship of the Bendenges estates, and rights to a market and annual fair at his manors of Monigeham and Shoueldon, Kent, and at his manor of Poppeshall (Buckland, Kent), with free warren there and in Cherry Hinton, Cambridgeshire (which he had acquired by exchange with Peter of Savoy) in September 1252. In June 1252 he witnessed the King's Letters Patent of Incorporation to Faversham, and in August his confirmation charter to Bristol. He was made King's Justice to receive William Pundelarche, an outlaw, into the king's peace, and with his son Simon and kinsman Nicholas he witnessed the resultant grant to William de Valencia. He was not, however, to permit the Earl of Pembroke to make any embarcation. He was granted wardship and marriage of Helen and Isabel, daughters of Maud de Avranches, one of whom married his grandson.

Seizures of ships, imprisonments of men, manslaughter, and other claims of damages and injuries arose between the barons of Winchelsea and the men of Yarmouth, and he was called upon to summon the barons and bailiffs in February 1253. Meanwhile, the king deferred settlement of the long arrearages owed to Dover Castle by Robert de Nevill, but always looked to de Criol to ensure the regular delivery of his Gascon wines from Sandwich to Westminster. In June 1253, with the king's councillors, he witnessed Henry's charters of confirmation and free warren to Battle Abbey, and his inspeximus charter to the Weavers' Guild of London, and in July to the burgesses of Reading. As from Portsmouth, he issued a grant to the sons of Jocelin de Oye (sometime King's Serjeant, and one of the keepers of the King's Works) to be conferred by the Queen and Earl Richard.

De Criol himself received a grant of 640 marks a year for the keeping of Dover Castle, so long as he be its keeper, over and above the castle guard rents, the issues and tolls of the town of Dover already granted. He was therewith notified that, in case of the King's death, the castle should not be given into the charge of Prince Edward during his minority without Queen Eleanor's assent. In February 1255 there remained £406 8s 11d owing to him of his annual payment of £426. 13s 4d, for the keeping of Dover Castle for the Easter and Michaelmas terms of the previous year. In settlement he received 227 quarters of wheat, 425 quarters of barley, 75 quarters of oats, 125 tuns of wine and 500 lbs. of wax out of the castle's munition stock, as appraised by the barons of the Exchequer. In March he was called to supervise the clearing and felling of old oaks and chestnuts for timber in Kent and the Weald, for sale on the king's behalf.

Upon the arrival of Eleanor of Castile at Dover in 1255, Henry sent orders that she should at once celebrate the feast of St Edward (13 October) at Canterbury, which de Criol and three others were to provide and superintend. At this time his sons John and Simon de Criol were also in duty to Dover Castle. The king did not forget his gifts, and in July 1253, granting six bucks for de Criol and four hinds for his wife, he thoughtfully instructed the park keeper to give him advice and help in catching them. The family origin of Emma de Criol, Bertram's wife, is undecided.

A diplomatic mission, and death
In January 1256, he was granted "'Power to John Mansell, Provost of Beverley, and Bertram de Crioyl to make, extend and confirm a truce between the king of France and his brothers and their adherents, and the king, Edward the king's son, the king's brothers and their adherents, from the feast of St. Rémy (13 January), when the truce made between the king of France and the king by Simon de Monte Forti, earl of Leicester and Peter de Sabaudia, for three years more after this date ends; with power to them to swear on the king's soul that he will observe it.'"

Within six months, by June 1256, he had died. A Pardon was granted to his heirs and executors, "in consideration of their having remitted to the king all his debts to the said Bertram, of all the said Bertram's debts to the king; and also of all accounts and reckonings for all receipts and expenses and wardships of the archbishopric of Canterbury, the castle of Dover, and the county of Kent for the whole time that he had the keeping thereof, by the order of the king; and of all other wardships and bailiwicks which he held of the king from the time that he was in the king's service until the time of his death: so that his executors may have free administration of his goods." And since John Maunsell, king's clerk, was for some time attendant to the keeping of the archbishopric with the said Bertram, without whom he could not make due reckoning of the debts and issues for that period of time, the king released John of all reckonings and demands that might be made in that regard. A similar remission was made to Stephen de Bokland, de Criol's clerk.

De Criol was a most important figure in King Henry's rule, and appears to have held loyally to him throughout. The records of payments of his salary are numerous in the Rolls, often expressing that they must be paid immediately. His son or near kinsman Nicholas de Crioll was for a time Constable of Dover Castle during the early 1260s. The burial place may have been in Battle Abbey, or possibly in the Premonstratensian abbey of St Radegund at Bradsole, near Dover, an Order of which the de Aubervilles and de Criols were patrons. John Leland remarked, "Certen of the Crealles were honorably biried at S. Radegund. Creaulles were greate benefactors to Houses of Religion in Est Kent, as appereth by their Armes in many Glase-Windois." De Criols bore "Or two chevrons and a canton gules", rendered in a 13th-century source as "Bertram de Criol, d'or ove deux chevrons et ung quartier de goules".

Matthew Paris provides an epitaph:"'Et circa dies illos obiit dominus Bertrammus de Criol, domini regis dapifer et Doveriae opidanus et custos fidelissimus.' (And in those days died lord Bertram de Criol, steward of the lord king and most faithful citizen and keeper of Dover.)"

Family
Bertram de Criol had two identified sons:

 * Sir John de Criol, "son and heir". John married in or before 1233 to Matilde de Eastwelle (died 1267), whose mother Margeria was living at the time of her death. In 1258 John received royal letters of protection for his intended journey to Santiago (in Galicia). Richard de Clare is said to have died at John's manor of Ashenfield (Hesmeresfeld) at Waltham in 1262. Sir John died in 1264. They were the parents of
 * Sir Bertram de Criol, who did homage for his father's lands in 1264, and was heir to his mother in 1267. He married Alianora, one of the four daughters and co-heirs of Hamo de Crevecoeur and Matilda (Maud) de Avranches. Sir Bertram died in 1295. Their children included
 * John de Criol (born c.1261), who was aged 34 in 1295: died without issue before 1302.
 * Bertram de Criol: died without issue in 1306.
 * Joan de Crioll, who married Sir Richard de Rokesley. They sold the manor of Aldbury in 1309.
 * Sir Simon de Criol. Simon married Matilda, daughter and heir of William de Esseteford (of Ashford, Esturt and Packmanstone in Newchurch). In 1252 he was granted immunity from coroner, assize or jury service for life, but in 1258 he was one of four knights selected for Kent for the bringing of inquisitions into trespasses and damages. Matilda was living at her husband's death in 1267.
 * Simon and Matilda had eight sons, who in 1267 were aged 30, 24, 23, 20, 16, 14, 12 and 11. These sons had an inheritance partible by gavelkind.

In 1245/6 Sir John and Sir Simon were together jurors in the inquisition post mortem upon Thomas de Normanville, lord of Kennington, Kent, which constituted part of the barony of the constabularie of Dover.

 * The relationship of Nicholas de Crioll (fl. 1240–1272) to Bertram is not specified. He is not mentioned in the 1243 scutage payment, where he would be expected. By 1246 Nicholas held the manor of Croxton Kerrial in Leicestershire granted to Bertram and his heirs by King Henry in 1242. Nicholas also became Constable of Dover Castle and Keeper of the Coast. He married Joan de Auberville, daughter of William de Auberville the younger, whose grandfather William the elder was married to Matilda (Maud), one of the three daughters of Ranulf de Glanville. Nicholas witnessed the De Clare and Puntdelarche charters in company with Simon de Criol, and obtained from the king a remission of £12 owing on the estate of John de Criol when John's son Bertram inherited it in 1264. He remarried to Margery, believed to have been daughter of Simon de Cray, who survived until 1319 and remarried into the Clifford family. His son by Joan,
 * Nicholas de Crioll, married Margaret, daughter of Galfred Pecche.

title: Bertram de Criol


text:
Talk:Terminal High Altitude Area Defense

VfD dicussion
from VfD:

There is nothing in this article to indicate what it is. RickK 20:29, Oct 2, 2004 (UTC) waste of money?
 * Delete. Uninformative substub.   — Gwalla | Talk 21:38, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Now the article actually says what it is. Needs NPOVification though.   — Gwalla | Talk 23:55, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * It's THAAD, Dad! I mean, Delete. Indistinguishable and uninformative. Ian Pugh 22:41, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep - I concur. Ian Pugh 03:11, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * KEEP, should be called a substub. It's THAAD, a high priced US miltiary antimissile defense project aimed at draining millions of dollars from public coffers while not offering an effective defence. THAAD should have high hit rate everywhere (16k on Google). It's related to SDI, the BMDO, ERINT (aka Patriot PAC-3), Corps SAM, the ABL, and other such stuff. In military terms, Theatre is a region where a war campaign takes place, hence the Pacific theatre of WWII. In US military projects, THAAD provides missile defence over the theatre from IRBMs. The next layer up is stuff like NMD, next layer down is the battlefield missile defence systems, like ERINT and AEGIS, then on down to unit defence like Corps SAM and then squad defence MANPADs... 132.205.15.4
 * So how hard is it to say all that in the article? RickK`
 * I'm biased on the issue (see the waste of money bit?) 132.205.15.4 03:01, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * a high priced US miltiary antimissile defense project aimed at draining millions of dollars from public coffers while not offering an effective defence.
 * The italics is a misguided POV statement. Budget numbers are in the article.  For comparison sake, US Public Education has a total financial drain on the order of $300 Billion per year($90+ Billion Federal funding and $200+ Billion in state fundings).  In other words, Public Education is three times the peak financial burn rate of the Iraq War; and the advocates argue that Public Education is funded oh so inadequately.  Whereas many US public schools currently have teachers who teach children that intercepting an incoming missile is impossible, 20 years of MDA funding has given us a far more accurate, trustworthy and useful science education for a running total of less than just four months (assuming 12 equal months of spending with no summer breaks)of US Public Education spending.  Never mind that teachers unions regularly pay millions of dollars into pro-homosexual lobbies and other items of educationally debatable value; and then complain that they are not paid enough.  THAAD is relatively lower impact and higher yield for funding.192.91.147.34 20:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The above is a rant. It is an outrageous comparison - would the author like to do away with the entire government-funded education system of the US, so all the money can go into a system that after billions of dollars, has only delivered a 24% kill ration? If I were to go along with this comparison, and judge public education by its success in producing students that are able to read, write and do some basic arithmetic, I think we would be looking at a "kill ratio" of more than 95%.By the way, I had to google the "budget numbers," because this article, so it could qualify as a stub, doesn't have them. ;-) Lavidia (talk) 00:51, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep. Good start.  ElBenevolente 23:19, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep acceptable stub. -- Jmabel 00:54, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)
 * I've rewritten the "acceptable" stub to actually be acceptable to myself. Surprised me that this one didn't exist. -- Cyrius|✎ 02:28, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep the revised page (under Terminal High Altitude Area Defense and THAAD redir). Looking good now. -R. S. Shaw 06:59, 2004 Oct 6 (UTC)
 * What Shaw said. Ropers 22:48, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. I added more information 22:48, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The statement, "The THAAD missile does not carry an explosive warhead and destroys incoming missiles by colliding with them, utilizing hit-to-kill-technology, unlike the one used by the MIM-104 Patriot PAC-3," is incorrect. MIM-104 Patriot uses an explosive warhead and is built by Raytheon. Patriot Advanced Capability (PAC-3) is built by Lockheed Martin, employs Hit-to-Kill technology and does not use an explosive warhead.

 * The original statement about PAC-3 having an explosive warhead is correct. Changed article to reflect this. The confusion is likely from PAC-3 mainly using a kinetic warhead, but also having an explosive warhead, often termed a "lethality enhancer." Prior Patriot versions used exclusively explosive warheads. Joema 23:00, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

end moved discussion

THAAD and PAC-3
The Patriot PAC-3 as a missile has a designation as MIM-104. This article, THAAD describes a whole system, including missile, launcher, radar, control systems. The Missile alone should have its own designation - What is the designation of this missile? The radar alone does have its designation shown. Wfoj2 (talk) 23:21, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

 * mim 401? https://www.dau.edu/cop/ammo/resources/terminal-high-altitude-area-defense-missile-thaad YEEETER0 (talk) 02:02, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

One major problem......
I have removed the last paragraph because it was uncited and not clear how it was relevant. So what if ballistic missiles can change their trajectory or THAAD will not deter a launch? Surely the whole point of the system is that it can track and intercept missiles regardless of how they move and that they do intercept missiles - it's not for show. In any case, how do we know THAAD will not deter anyone from launching attacks?

Unless someone can produce more in-depth, relevant and cited material to substantiate why that is a problem for this system it is irrelevant. John Smith's (talk) 11:41, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you would like to check out the "Demonstration-Validation phase" section of the article you are discussing, where you will find out that, of 9 missiles fired at targets, only 2 hit them. And none of the targets changed their course as future versions of the Topol Russian ICBM are supposed to do. It doesn't help that one of the missiles that successfully hit its target did so in a "simplified test scenario." So surely there is ground to question the effectiveness of this system? Lavidia (talk) 00:51, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Formatting
I've updated a the first list of dates and test results to be a table. I'll do the same with the second in a little while. I suspect the two sections can be combined with early development under one heading called "Development" and just make them their own subsections. Darthveda (talk) 01:35, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

 * I've finished a massive round of reformatting the page. I'm a little unhappy with the THAAD diagram where it is.  Darthveda (talk) 04:13, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Mass without fuel
Can anyone cite THAAD missile mass without fuel (or its terminal mass)? Such information should be open, and it would greatly improve the article. ellol (talk) 16:21, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

 * That information is classified.

That information may be deduced from road and bridge upgrades in Europe to bigger loads. European NATO countries are obliged to adapt their road system and bridges to the loads of new heavy weaponry. Slovakia took 18 years but now they are ready to host bases with heavy stuff. Nearly forgot why I came here, the last sentence is not dated.
 * ''In response, a retired Chinese general Wang Hongguang warned that if Taiwan were to start deploying THAAD systems then the People's Liberation Army would start the process to conquer Taiwan.[160]

'' Can't read the Chinese characters, but when this was said seems relevant to me. 2001:8003:A070:7F00:ED21:4F13:66A6:6702 (talk) 03:08, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Hawaian deployment
dont know what thay deployed to hawaii, since A-4 is still sitting on its but in el paso.Brian in denver (talk) 22:54, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

A-4 is just standing up, their either don't have all of their equipment or they don't have all the soldiers. Hawaii has the live missiles. so no deployment for A-4 according to my friends in El paso. Lyta79 (talk) 01:46, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Blacklisted Links Found on the Main Page
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Counterfeit Microchips
According to IEEE Spectrum these devices suffered from Counterfeit Microchips. Should we begin a section to address this? Aedazan (talk) 01:30, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Compared to Patriot
How does THADD fit into the mix with Patriot? i.e. what is the advantage of one over the other?Feldercarb (talk) 22:39, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

 * The design ranges of the two are quite different - THAAD has a range of ">200km"; Patriot (PAC-3 MSE) an ABM range of "35 km". So the idea is that a small number of Patriot batteries can defend a city, and a small number of THAAD batteries can defend a country or a large US state. The practical merits of either (the extent to which they will work as advertised) remains to be seen. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 15:35, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
 * The radar systems also differ, with the resolving power of a Patriot radar being less (it would be 'blurrier') than the resolving power of a THAAD radar (it would be 'sharper'). Thus tracking and intercepting a threat is an easier task for THAAD.  --Ancheta Wis    (talk  | contribs) 12:33, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

ER
Extended range? Kortoso (talk) 22:33, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

North Korea threat
This section seems rather long; perhaps it should be stripped back to stuff that's directly relevant. Do we need all the history? William M. Connolley (talk) 08:58, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

The THAAD Radar and a variant developed as a forward sensor for ICBM missile defense, the Forward-Based X-Band – Transportable (FBX-T) radar were assigned a common designator,

this sentence is wrong.

was (x)

were (o)

source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_High_Altitude_Area_Defense

this sentence is correct.

Please correct it. Qwer0909 (talk) 09:05, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Not Done. The article is written in American English, not UK English. --Ancheta Wis   (talk  | contribs) 10:37, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

The AN/TPY-2 radar has two modes
Modes are common radar terminology; it's not just THAAD that uses the word.

According to the vendor, the AN/TPY-2 radar has two modes, 1) for operating in the THAAD role -- terminal mode, for defense against descending missiles, and 2) for forward-based mode, which is the detection of ascending missiles. In other words, it's one radar. Currently the THAAD radar in Korea can be used in its role to guide anti-ballistic interceptors, in one mode. --Ancheta Wis   (talk  | contribs) 00:07, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Palau radar
After the North Korean tensions, on 18 July 2017, the US broached a proposal to Palau, that the defense of Palau be enhanced. On 21 August 2017, Palau announced an agreement with the US for the deployment of radar towers to be located on the archipelago.

Wideband digital beamforming radar -- AN/SPY-6(V)
On 15 March 2017 the DoD's Program Executive Office for Integrated Warfare Systems announced a test result of AN/SPY-6(V)'s Air and Missile Defense Radar (AMDR). Data from multiple elements of a wideband beamforming array was used to successfully track and destroy a short-range ballistic missile.

Radar Modular Assemblies (RMAs)
An AMDR can be constructed with 2-foot wide modules, each a functioning radar, which can form an electronically positionable antenna, a phased array.

--Ancheta Wis   (talk  | contribs) 06:31, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Aegis ashore deployment
An Aegis ashore radar, AN/SPY-1, is shown in a photo of an AAMDS deployment to Deveselu air base, Romania. AAMDS appears to have a smaller phased array than the one shown in a photo of the AMDR (AN/SPY-6(V)). A smaller array signifies lesser resolving power. An AMDR is configurable. Japan's interest in an Aegis ashore radar has been heightened by a North Korean IRBM Hwasong-12 overflight of Hokkaido on 29 August 2017. An AMDR was used during a successful intercept April 2017.

Definition of ICBM
It should be possible to explain the difference between an ICBM and its rival missiles for the encyclopedia, using high school algebra, and the distance data from the latest Reuters citation which was just added to the article. Galileo's law of falling bodies is the key. If we follow Newton and approximate the trajectory of an ICBM with a parabola, we have the relationship between distance and velocity (cited as Mach 8) we need. I keep reading that a THAAD interceptor can achieve Mach 8 velocities. Especially if an ICBM is falling downward, my thought is that a THAAD should be able to intercept it. I haven't worked through the numbers yet. Feel free to beat me to it --Ancheta Wis   (talk  | contribs) 07:15, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

See: Trajectory of a projectile, Range of a projectile

Proposal to put this in article under 'Defense of the US'
I believe there is enough information to place in the article under 'Defense of Guam, USA'. There are citations for the defense of the US, and the attendant kill chain for anyone attempting an attack. THAAD is a piece of the chain, and 'overmatch' is a strategy that needs further explication in order to be understood by the reader or any nascent attacker, for that matter. --Ancheta Wis   (talk  | contribs) 22:45, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
 * this proposal is meant to set context for THAAD. Since it's a complicated subject, it is actually easier to explain in this article than it would be in the general case. Thus SBIRS is topical and timely here.  The pieces that are currently deleted from the article can be fit into context in the proposed section.--Ancheta Wis    (talk  | contribs) 18:48, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Yep Wingwraith (talk) 23:11, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Overmatch is one strategy for presenting multiple dilemmas to the enemy. —David G. Perkins
 * Overmatch signals that whatever the opponent may attempt, the alternatives will only make things worse for the opponent.
 * Early warning system
 * On 26 September 1983, Lt. Col. Stanislav Petrov helped avert nuclear war between the US and USSR based on a mismatch between computer assessments of "missile strike" and the non-corroboration by the ground-based radars (Duga, or perhaps Dnestr radar) of their Early Warning System, which reported 5 missiles rising. "When people start a war, they don't start it with only 5 missiles —Stanislav Petrov"
 * The false alarm was apparently triggered by sunglint off clouds in the sky.

Defense of Guam, United States
 * Target detection, signature, and identification
 * Satellite networks: SBIRS surveillance satellites, MILSTAR
 * Target tracking and trajectory
 * NORAD, Phased Array Warning System
 * Dispatch to combatant commander
 * delegation of authority
 * Handoff to THAAD
 * The BBC has analyzed 3 current options for North Korea, one of them a salvo of IRBMs in the direction of Guam, as of 22 September 2017.
 * THAAD intercepts the target(s)
 * as below
 * Debris tracking
 * Satellite networks verify destruction of physics package

Salvo of four aimed at the waters off Guam, mid-August 2017
The Korean Central News Agency (KCNA) has published what amounts to a test plan of the North Korean artillery: In mid-August, the proposal is to launch 4 Hwasong-12 IRBMs, aimed at the waters twenty miles east of Guam, in an 18-minute trajectory, passing over Hiroshima on the way. On 14 August 2017 the North Korean plan to launch 4 Hwasong-12 IRBMs is said to be undergoing active discussion, while the DoD's Secretary of Defense stated that "within moments" of a launch from the North, the trajectory of the missile(s) would be known to the DoD (Department of Defense), and its impact point(s) would be known, and whether or not the missiles were headed toward US territory. At that moment, DoD's options to "take out the missiles" would include Aegis SM-3s, or THAAD interceptors.
 * Sovereignty issues aside, this could serve as a practical drill for the THAAD battery currently stationed on Guam, for shooting down a salvo of four missiles.
 * There is going to be a test salvo of at least two target missiles according to the MDA, so the planned timing of that THAAD test would be accelerated forward from 2018 to next week.
 * THAAD has the capabilty to handle salvos.
 * Patriot missiles have a re-load procedure, but is there a procedure for re-loading a THAAD launcher in ten minutes? (I doubt it) Re-loading a launcher takes 30 minutes. 12:11, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
 * What if a missile gets through the barrage? Can a THAAD fire control system handle this kind of data load? (Yes) Would a Patriot be needed? I read that human error was the cause of the SM-3 failure 21 June 2017 (Hawaiian time). (An operator hit the abort button in error. ) A lot would be going on for ten minutes.
 * Basic information on Guam
 * Hwasong-12's get test-launched from Sinpo
 * A map of the air route from Sinpo to Guam. This map is named "Strategic Forces Firing Strike Plan" in the North Korean publicity photo, which names the generals in the photo.
 * The parabolic trajectory of Hwasong-12 from North Korea to Guam
 * UDMH is under scrutiny as a strategic material. UDMH is a rocket fuel used by North Korea in its missiles. --08:23, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
 * The risks of this possible test are documented.

On 15 August 2017 the North Korean plan to launch 4 Hwasong-12 IRBMs was put on hold. On 21 August 2017, the eve of the semiannual exercise of the allies of the UN, US, and South Korea (ROK), after a series of meetings on the Korean Peninsula, the existence of a series of plans (the so-called Kill chain) in the event of the end of the Korean Armistice (1953) was put on the table for discussion. As of 14:54, 21 August 2017 (UTC), the agreement between the presidents of the US and ROK not to end the Armistice remained in force; the signs of a war footing are not yet visible to the populace of the respective nations.

On 3 September 2017 a summary (note especially the video clip's 3 Sep 2017 comments from Face the Nation) of the factors listed above, and in the THAAD article as well, lists the North's arguments for extorting money and power by building WMDs in a deliverable package for sale to other states. Gordon Chang implicates $3 billion in annual funding from Iran to the North for WMDs in a missile-deliverable package. Iran has observed all previous nuclear tests. --03:57, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

In the opinion of Harry Kazianis, the North is only just now beginning to solve the problems of debugging the deliverable WMD. --23:03, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Kazianis expects another ICBM test by North Korea in the next several months, aimed in the direction of the US, but falling into the mid-Pacific. --10:02, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Defense of the United States 00:50, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Angela Merkel points out that there is already a proven template for solving the crisis. This process trades nuclear testing in exchange for talks and negotiating. She will schedule her time for this if she is asked to participate. 12:38, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

I think it is premature to put this in the article right now. --Ancheta Wis   (talk  | contribs) 11:32, 10 August 2017 (UTC) updated  14:08, 15 August 2017 (UTC), 15:13, 21 August 2017 (UTC), 23:01, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Defense of S. Korea
 * Protection of Seoul —Overmatch of an artillery barrage:

 * Firefinding radars determine the coordinates of an artillery piece within moments of fire AN/TPS-80 Ground/Air Task Oriented Radar (G/ATOR 2016) or AN/TPQ-53 2013
 * UAVs verify artillery sites visually during their 42-hour missions.
 * Minefields deter overland infantry invasion
 * The North has 750000 troops on the DMZ, out of 1.1 million in the military

U.S. approves possible $15 billion sale of THAAD missiles to Saudi Arabia.
U.S. approves possible $15 billion sale of THAAD missiles to Saudi Arabia http://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/saudi-arabia-terminal-high-altitude-area-defense-and-related-support-equipment-and--Qrmoo3 (talk) 20:50, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Latest contribution citing "In Russia 13:31, January 15, 2018 ..."
The latest contribution, as translated by Google translate, beginning "In Russia 13:31, January 15, 2018 ..." shows that the Russian Foreign Ministry's reaction lacks technical advice. The section describing the Standard Missile-3 modification IIA betrays the Foreign Ministry's misunderstanding of the antimissile defense system, in that, were Japan to purchase Aegis SM-3 Block IIA, the Japanese defenders would indeed be able to launch their own antimissile interceptors. The ballistic missile detection process is described very well in today's news about the Hawaiian false alarm scare. A missile enroute to a target in Japan would be intercepted by Japanese SM-3 interceptors with no US intervention (see J-Alert).

Note: this last citation is a US capability. Multiple detections of a targetted ICBM to be shot down, make its interception by antimissile interceptors more likely. --Ancheta Wis   (talk  | contribs) 00:44, 16 January 2018 (UTC), 01:55, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)
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 * Added tag to http://frontierindia.net/thaad-weapon-system-conducts-successful-exo-atmospheric-interceptor-test/
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Subsonic cruise missile
If no citation is provided for the contribution asserting that a subsonic cruise missile is somehow equivalent in ABM defense capability to a Mach 8 interceptor within seven days of the date of that contribution, I intend to remove it. --Ancheta Wis   (talk  | contribs) 09:21, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Controversy section
Hi all, please assist to expand the controversy section. Currently listed controversy is merely health concerns (chronic headaches, nausea), concerns around financial costs, and the selection of locations of deployment. Needs work.126.161.176.79 (talk) 14:44, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

 * Actually, controversy sections are not recommended per WP:NPOV. The contents need to be merged into the relevant sections of the article. - BilCat (talk) 00:56, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * When merging the points into the relevant parts of the article, the citations to a URL can be formatted with author, title, date. For example, the ref might contain (Bruce Gagnon, Will Griffin, and Ken Jones Veterans for Peace (2017) Statement Opposing U.S. THAAD ‘Missile Defense’ System Deployment in South Korea) --Ancheta Wis    (talk  | contribs) 02:00, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

D-2 (THAAD) battery nomenclature
Here is the most recent citation for "D-2 (THAAD) Battery", now permanently stationed in Korea: https://www.army.mil/article/215518/ "D-2 conducts first THAAD missile redistribution exercise on Korean Peninsula" By 1LT Taylor John-Morton (December 27, 2018)

-- 03:03, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

and here is the precedent for "B-62 THAAD activated" so it's battery B (THAAD) in 62nd Regiment --Ancheta Wis   (talk  | contribs) 08:38, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

THAAD in the News
This might be useful for editors...
 * A rare look inside the heavily guarded compound where Lockheed Martin builds the THAAD missile - CNBC - • Sbmeirow  •  Talk  • 02:23, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Talon missile name?
At a CSIS talk, Lt. Gen. Heath Collins, Director of the Missile Defense Agency, named the missile 'Talon': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDe55DKViwc&t=3167s (timestamp 52:47) Phongn (talk) 16:40, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't see any reliable sources supporting that; this seems like a misinterpretation; as Task Force Talon is the name of the forward-deployed THAAD battalion. In any event, a single off-hand reference made in a live setting isn't sufficient here. ⇒   SWAT Jester   Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 20:32, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

MIM-401 designation
I've removed the inclusion of the MIM-401 designation as it's not confirmed. See. e.g. here, which claims: "Designation Note: No confirmed formal alphanumeric designation for the THAAD missile is known. While there are a few isolated references in Army logistics and training files to a "Guided Missile, Intercept-Aerial, THAAD MIM-401" and "Guided missile sub-system, intercept-aerial MIM-401B" (and -401C), it is far from certain, that the MDS designator MIM-401 has really been officially allocated to THAAD. The number 401 would be way out of sequence, and DOD MDS records up until mid-2018 don't include any MIM-401 designation. Also, the number is suspiciously close to XM400, the official Army nomenclature for the Patriot PAC-3 MSE missile. It cannot be ruled out, that the THAAD missile was to be designated (X)M401, and that this was somehow semi-officially converted to MIM-401, to look like a regular guided missile MDS." Given this lack of clarity, it's premature for us to cite MIM-401 as the designation in wikivoice. I'd potentially not be opposed to including it with some sort of qualifier statement, but at that point we should probably not be including it all -- there's simply not enough reliable sources stating with certainty that MIM-401 is the designation and none that I can see that formally announce it. — ⇒   SWAT Jester   Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 20:29, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
John Scott of Amwell

John Scott (9 January 1731 – 12 December 1783), known as Scott of Amwell, was an English landscape gardener and writer on social matters. He was also the first notable Quaker poet, although in modern times he is remembered for only one anti-militarist poem.

Life
John Scott was the son of a successful London draper who later retired to Amwell House in the Hertfordshire village of Great Amwell and worked from there as a maltster. The family were Quakers and John's elder brother Samuel (1719–88) eventually settled in Hertford as a Quaker minister. Scott stayed at home and undertook the improvement of the grounds from 1760, modelling them on those of William Shenstone at the Leasowes, which he visited. Its principal feature was a grotto consisting of six subterranean rooms whose surfaces were covered in flints, shells and minerals,

 * Where glossy pebbles pave the varied floors,
 * And rough flint-walls are deck'd with shells and ores,
 * And silvery pearls, spread o'er the roofs on high,
 * Glimmer like faint stars in a twilight sky.

His poem "The Garden" goes on to reject the formal style of garden for Shenstone’s ideal of a managed wilderness. On visiting it, the celebrated Samuel Johnson declared that "none but a poet could have made such a garden." The grotto continued as a tourist attraction into Victorian times but, having then fallen out of use, was restored in 1991 as "the most complete of the grotto-builder’s art". Scott lacked a full or satisfactory education and had only come to a knowledge of poetry through friendship with a bricklayer autodidact, whose daughter Sarah Frogley he eventually married in 1767. She died in childbirth the following year and in 1770 he married Maria De Horne, by whom he had a daughter, also named Maria. In 1773 he published his social Observations on the present state of the parochial and vagrant poor, a criticism of the Poor Law which was approved, although its recommendations did not gain parliamentary support. He was also celebrated as an expert on the turnpike roads, on which he wrote in 1773 and expanded in 1778 under the title A Digest of the Highway and General Turnpike Laws. He was an active member of three Hertfordshire turnpike trusts and his book was later praised as by "the ablest Turnpike Trustee of his time" Another political pamphlet, "The Constitution Defended", was a reply to Samuel Johnson’s "False Alarm" (1770).

Scott had been making occasional visits to London since 1760 and there made the acquaintance of John Hoole, who introduced him to Dr Johnson. Though they disagreed politically, Johnson remarked that "he loved Mr Scott" and meant to write his life, although death intervened before he could do so. Scott himself died of a fever caught during a visit to London in 1783. After his death his Critical essays on several English poets was published in 1785, together with a life of him written by John Hoole. These had originated from Scott's dissatisfaction with some of the essays in Johnson’s recent Lives of the Most Eminent English Poets and was meant to supply a corrective view.

Poetry
Scott’s preferred method of composing poetry was described by Hoole as taking place after the rest of the family were in bed, when "it was frequently his custom to sit in a dark room, and when he had composed a number of lines, he would go into another room where a candle was burning, in order to commit them to paper.”

His earliest published works outside of magazines were the “Four Elegies descriptive and moral” (1760). In the fashion of Gray's Elegy, these record the passing of the seasons rather than an individual and were written in cross-rhymed quatrains. Such writing was not to the taste of Dr Johnson who, when Boswell urged that Scott was “a very middle-rate poet, who pleased many readers”, argued that only excellence was admirable. Afterwards it was not until 1776 that Scott published “Amwell, a descriptive poem” in blank verse that takes the almost Wordsworthian stance that the countryside with which he became acquainted “in early youth… gave rapture to my soul; and often still on life’s calm moments sheds serener joy.” It was after this poem that he became known as Scott of Amwell in the 18th century. Later he published his “Moral Eclogues” (1778), followed soon after by his collected Poetical Works (1782), which was to be reprinted in 1786 and 1795 and later included in omnibus volumes in 1808 and 1822. The portrait prefixed to his works is not a correct likeness and caused Scott dissatisfaction. Among several other illustrations in the body of the book were two vignettes and two oval plates by the young William Blake. ''

Particular itemisation is one facet of Scott's style, avoiding the generalised Augustan diction of earlier poets:
 * There spread the wild rose, there the woodbine twin'd;
 * There stood green fern, there o'er the grassy ground
 * Sweet camomile and ale-hoof spread around;
 * And centaury red, and yellow cinquefoil grew,
 * And scarlet campion and cyanus blue;
 * And tufted thyme, and marjoram's purple bloom,
 * And ruddy strawberries yielding rich perfume.

There is a wide range of literary and geographical reference as well. Two poems respond to the work of Mark Akenside and there is a sonnet on Shenstone’s elegies. The “Mexican Prophecy” is set at the time of the Spanish conquest of the Aztec Empire and in his “Oriental Eclogues” Scott follows the example of William Collins by writing three set in Arabia, India and China. The last of these deals with the historical poet Li Po.

He protested in his Letter to the Critical Reviewers that not all his poems were included in the Poetical Works. Twelve unpublished poems are among his papers at the Friends' Library or in other letters to friends. They include four long odes and four sonnets, numbered V-VIII, which he may have planned to include in a cooperative volume with Joseph Cockfield.

The poem by which Scott is most remembered now is “The Drum” (Ode 13), an anti-war poem beginning “I hate that drum’s discordant sound” which was widely reprinted after its publication. In England it was set as a vocal piece by Benjamin Frankel as part of his “8 Songs” (Op. 32, 1959), and later by Christopher Dowie. In the 21st century it has been set to music by the Quaker composer Ned Rorem as the opening piece in his song cycle "Aftermath" (2001), an immediate pacifist reaction to the vengeful spirit that followed the attacks of 9/11. There was also a later US setting for choir and snare drum by William F. Funk in 2004, and in Canada it was set by Robert Rival as the sixth in his cycle "Red Moon and other songs of war" (2007).

title: John Scott of Amwell


text: Talk:Terror bombing

title: Talk:Terror bombing


text:
Talk:List of mascots

Wikipedia's cute mascots needs a reference mascot
The references in wikipedia are a vital foundation to the knowledge therein. Therefore I submit a Reference-San as an idea. A more strict and brutally efficient adjucator that demands sources and tries to keep the others grounded in the realm of cited material...definitely a Tsundere type to the current Moe line-up 24.244.29.161 (talk) 16:28, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Please restore list of television and movie mascots
Please restore list of television and movie mascots 76.184.70.125 (talk) 22:18, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:List of mascots


text:
Ugly

Ugly may refer to:
 * Ugliness, a property of a person or thing that is unpleasant to look at, listen to or contemplate

Albums

 * Ugly (Life of Agony album), 1995
 * Ugly (Screaming Females album), 2012
 * Ugly (Slowthai album), 2023
 * "Ugly", the album's title track

Songs

 * "Ugly" (Bubba Sparxxx song), 2001
 * "Ugly" (Fantasia song), 2016
 * Ugly (The Gazette song), 2015
 * "Ugly" (Jaira Burns song), 2017
 * "Ugly" (Jon Bon Jovi song), 1998
 * "Ugly" (Russ song), 2021
 * "Ugly" (Sevendust song), 2005
 * "Ugly" (Sugababes song), 2005
 * "U.G.L.Y.", by Daphne & Celeste, 2000
 * "Ugly", by 2NE1 on their EP 2NE1
 * "Ugly", by Ella Henderson from her second album Everything I Didn't Say (2022)
 * "Ugly", by Juliana Hatfield on her album Hey Babe
 * "Ugly", by Pooh Shiesty on his album Shiesty Season
 * "Ugly", by The Exies from their album Head for the Door, 2004
 * "Ugly", by The Smashing Pumpkins on their single "1979"

Other

 * Ugly (film), a 2013 film
 * "Ugly" (House), a television series episode
 * "Ugly", an autobiography by Constance Briscoe
 * Ugly Creek (disambiguation)
 * Ugly Models, a modelling and actors' agency in London, UK
 * Ugly Mountain, a mountain in the U.S. state of West Virginia

title: Ugly


text:
Allerton High School

Allerton High School is a coeducational secondary school and sixth form located in Alwoodley, Leeds, West Yorkshire, England. It is situated around 500 metres north of the A6120 Leeds Outer Ring Road, north of the Moor Allerton shopping centre and east of St Stephen's church. The head teacher is Elaine Silson.

Grammar school
The school was opened in 1939 as a girls' grammar school by the City of Leeds Education Committee. The school had previously been located on Harrogate Road, near Stainbeck Lane, since 1901, and moved to Moor Allerton in 1939.

In the 1960s it had around 700 girls.

Comprehensive
In 1972, boys were included in the student body and the school became a 13–18 comprehensive. It later became an 11–18 comprehensive, and in 1992 underwent a physical expansion.

Current buildings
The school moved into new buildings on 1 September 2008, and there was a formal opening by Prime Minister Gordon Brown on 28 November 2008. Planning permission was granted on 30 July 2021 for the construction of four modular teaching blocks (eight classrooms vertically stacked in two pairs including associated stair pods) for temporary use over two years.

Other information
The school has a standard uniform, comprising a dark green V-necked top printed with the school logo, a white shirt, a green and white school tie, a dark green skirt (girls only) or black trousers (either sex), and black shoes (heels to be no higher than 5 cm) with black socks. A dark green or black headscarf may be worn. The school is involved in the Excellence in Cities initiative. Its motto was formerly "In Minimis Fidelis" (Be faithful in little things) but is now "Enabling Young People To Achieve Success". The new building includes a substantial multi-faith centre.

The school was used in 2010 for the filming of Married Single Other, making it one of a small number in Leeds to be used on television including Allerton Grange School and Foxwood School.

Notable former pupils

 * Soul singer Corinne Bailey Rae attended in the 1990s and became head girl.
 * Celebrity chef Marco Pierre White attended the school but left without any qualifications.
 * Actor Charlie Heaton attended the school from 2006 to 2010 and finished his education before moving to London. He is most known for playing Jonathon Byers in Stranger Things

Girls' grammar school

 * Dame Fanny Waterman CBE, piano educator and concert pianist who founded the Leeds International Pianoforte Competition (educated at Chapel Allerton High School, the predecessor), and also later taught at the school on King Lane from 1943.
 * Helen Williams CB, Director of School Curriculum and Pupil Well-being at the Department for Education since 2006. married to David Forrester, Director from 1995 to 2001 of Further Education and Youth Training at the DfEE.

title: Allerton High School


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Crimson Crush

Crimson Crush
Not notable. A high school band.
 * Delete this and the vanity pages for all of the band's members. RickK 20:57, Oct 2, 2004 (UTC)
 * Seconded. Delete and delete - David Gerard 21:02, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Garage band vanity.   — Gwalla | Talk 21:39, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. I play guitar, too, but don't deserve a page for it. --Kbh3rd 01:28, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete along with all this band's member pages. Not notable. --Improv 16:53, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Do you care to explain why this isn't notable? anthony (see warning) 02:57, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete along with member pages. Band vanity. -- Cyrius|✎ 02:30, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete along with Band member pages. Please take my vote as read on member pages! --Cje 09:13, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. They only won third place at the Talentime Permata. Now if they'd won first, they might be worth talking about... Gamaliel 09:17, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Christian Rock Band. anthony (see warning) 21:41, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Are you suggesting that all high school bands are notable? Or are you suggesting that Christian bands of any sort are notable? --Improv 19:33, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Both. anthony (see warning) 02:56, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * To me, that's ridiculous. High school bands are a dime a dozen -- it's practically a cultural tradition to be part of a band in high school. Probably almost 10% of schoolkids do it at least once. The fact that it's Christian means squat to me. --Improv 03:01, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * 100% of schoolkids lived in a town at least once. Should we delete all the town pages too?  Yes, there are a lot of high school bands.  But Wikipedia has a lot of hard drive space.  So why not keep them all? anthony (see warning) 03:40, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete this and the band members' individual pages: vanity. —No-One Jones (m) 21:42, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete: Marching band vanity. Delete all the members of the band, too, and their pages. Geogre 02:19, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete band page & band members pages. Nonnotable, vanity. Wile E. Heresiarch 04:56, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Iron law of oligarchy

Aren't you going to mention Plato and his cycle of civilizations?death metal maniac (talk) 18:21, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

 * You should feel free to. 118.208.189.219 (talk) 10:36, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

what creats the iron law of oligasrchy according to R. Michels?
Good question. Bureaucratization and specialization mainly, which creates a specialized group of administrators in a hierarchical structure. This leads to The routinization of authority and decision making...basically the sorts of the things Max Weber delt with. And to a lesser and more cynical extent, the Peter principle. Hey...there's something we can add to the article! Thank you, unknown stranger:>--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 06:22, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

National Socialist example in 1915 book?
Am I missing something, or is there something funny when the article says that an "example that Michels used in his book was Germany's National Socialist Party."? The only book mentioned is his 1915 "Political Parties", which would predate the Nazi party (assuming this is what is meant; the link is to a disambiguation page). Is the reference really meant to be to the Social Democratic Party of Germany, which Michel's entry indicates he was a member of until 1907? It looks like this was introduced in this diff. - David Oberst 04:11, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * My mistake, you are right.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 04:19, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Copyvio problems?
Also, there may be some copyright issues - chunks of the text are directly taken from this website. It is listed in the References section, but given the substantial usage should there not be more explicit notice? Also, the author asserts copyright, and I don't know if his release would be compatible with Wikipedia's GFDL? - David Oberst 04:11, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * There are inline citations in text, and it has been somewhat reworded. But perhaps we can put some remaining sentences in quotation marks?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 04:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Has there been any actual sociology tests on this theory
Does anyone know of any sociology test on this theory? Nevermind, :) I have learned asking questions on wikipedia talk pages is usually futile. Travb (talk) 04:34, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Many, google scholar or print for Iron Law of Oligarchy. Lipset ITU study is likely the most famous.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:02, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

shit floats to the top??
This has got nothing to do with the Iron law of oligarchy. There is no claim being made that the "oligarchs" are bad people. It is pointing to a divergence of interests, IMO that whole section should be cut.Dejvid 11:42, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Which section?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:01, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Prety much all of "Fiction and popular culture"as it stands.Dejvid 23:07, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh. It's unreferenced, I support moving it to talk.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 07:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I've cut the section ==Fiction and popular culture== because it is unsourced and because it tottally misunderstands the Iron Law of oligarchy. The reason put forward by the theory as to why it is an iron law is that the people who get to fill higher positions have a level of competance that is not easily replaced. The problem is that undermines democracy in those organizations not that the people in high positions are crooks.Dejvid 08:40, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

The vulgar proverb "shit floats to the top" has sometimes been considered a rephrasing of the Iron Law of Oligarchy, especially in the very common situations where the oligarchy is also a kleptocracy and/or a kakistocracy.

This idea has been mentioned in several books by Terry Pratchett, including the phrase "other things float to the top except cream", "cream of society" being a phrase sometimes used to describe the upper classes.

I'd like to point out that this move was possibly a good example of the benefits of oligarchy. :-) Cernansky (talk) 17:40, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia and Iron Law
I am moving anon's paragraph here; while interesting, it is both POVed and ORish.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 11:36, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Another example is Wikipedia. While beginning as a fairly democratic and open forum, the iron law inevitably set in. Users who had the time and available effort slowly rose to the top of an editorial bureaucracy. As promotion, advancements, and levels were determined by success among the group, a uniform mindset inevitably became manifest. This oligarchy enforced its power through user expulsion and article deletion, dismissing views offensive to the group mindset as "non-notable." Eventually, this led to a stagnation of the content of the nascent encyclopedia, leading to its decline. It was later surpassed in content and users by rival, more open and democratic systems.

 * I agree. It's polemical and out of place here. Notabene, a reliably sourced and neutral paragraph would fit in here, but not this. It has been reinserted since your revert. I won't enter an editwar as a matter of principle, but unless the anonymous user offers a better alternative, that paragraph can't stay. ( Note: I edited that paragraph previously without having read it entirely. This should not be mistaken: I think that paragraph should go, and have told the anonymous user so on his talk page. )   Kosebamse (talk) 10:18, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I've reverted it on the basis of WP:NOR. -- Neil N   talk  ♦  contribs  14:58, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * There is No Cabal. Supermagle (talk) 21:49, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

From My Talkpage
Your edits to Iron Law of Oligarchy were reverted. Please don't add unreferenced information to Wikipedia. Thank you, --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 14:31, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

 * It's not...some just can't handle the Wikitruth...--70.185.113.212 (talk) 15:26, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't see any references. Ergo, it is unreferenced WP:OR. Please observe our policies (WP:V). Wikitruth is certainly not reliable, but I am sure they would welcome such unreferenced criticism.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:08, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia's policies are flawed. You, yourself, have just violated the spirit, if not the letter, of the dread 3RR. You are also violating the sprit of WP:OWN since you do not own that article..nor does anyone here. As far as reliability goes,the TRuth has a much better record of getting it right on the subjects it knows about than WP. A few great editors such as yourself not withstanding, WP is 95% regurgiated, cut and pasted, pastuerized crap. And a clear example of the Iron Law in action.--70.185.113.212 (talk) 17:17, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Please don't re-revert without discussion. As you presumably know, continued reversion is not tolerated and will eventually result in administrative measures. Your addition to that article is not in line with Wikipedia's content guidelines. You may wish to take your complaints elsewhere. Kosebamse (talk) 10:30, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I am attempting to discuss, but you are not discussing. All you are doing is dictating policies, or rather your interpretaions of them, to me and then threatening to use your sysop tools against me if I do not comply. Which amouts to using your tools as weapons in an edit war to support your own opinions...not facts...I'm sure there is a policy against this somewhere, but I doubt you will be called out for it in this case...afterall you are an admin and I'm just an IPeon; a 3rd class citizen at best. All this only further serves to show just how apt an example of the Iron Law Wikipedia has become.--70.185.113.212 (talk) 12:40, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Your polemics aside, you are free to suggest a better version. Unless you convince other editors of the merits of your views, you will have to accept that said views will not be represented. If you want strong opinions placed in an article, the burden of proof is upon you. Edit warring will not be interpreted in your favor, by the way. Kosebamse (talk) 18:45, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

 * The anonymous user is right. His paragraph should not be entirely deleted, although Eventually, this led to a stagnation of the content of the nascent encyclopedia, leading to its decline. It was later surpassed in content and users by rival, more open and democratic systems. should be deleted if the paragraph comes back. Stagnation? Decline? The user is right about the flawed policies and the enforcement of those flawed policies. If he does come with references, they would most likely be dismissed as unreliable. Mallerd (talk) 18:56, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

 * But adding Wikipedia in an example might cause severe biases, after all everyone here is reading Wikipedia and will inevitably change their opinion (from something that was only supposed to be an example, not a claim against the relationship between the Iron Law and Wikipedia) of the Iron Law from the example about Wikipedia. Another factor to creating a bias is that applying the law to Wikipedia will inevitably imply to readers that it is extemely important that Wikipedia should not be an oligarchy, dispite that websites, businesses, and other capitalism structures are usually supposed to be oligarchys however bad the word oligarchy sounds.  That further makes there appear to be a terrible problem between the Iron Law and Wikipedia even though there isn't. Also, "Wikipedia's policies are flawed" is not derectly related to the Iron Law because it states every organization, even if not flawed, will evolve to an oligarchy. 154.20.194.233 (talk) 23:41, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia is obviously subject to the Iron Rule for reasons quite apart from internal division between frequent and infrequent users. Editors will inevitably be those who are educated, wealthy enough to own or access a computer, and have sufficient time to compose or edit articles. Stating that Wikipedia "avoids the Iron Law" indicates a fundamental lack of comprehension of the doctrine in question. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jhunyadi (talk • contribs) 04:01, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

See also Pournelle's law?
The writer Jerry Pournelle has proposed an "Iron Law of Bureaucracy", which builds on the Iron Law of Oligarchy in a somewhat depressing manner. Should we mention it in the "See also" section of this article? Perhaps as (BTW, I've just edited the Jerry Pournelle article to mention this article.) Cheers, CWC 09:52, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy
 * See also would be fine. Please add references in footnotes, note the usage of external links in main body is discouraged (WP:EL). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:11, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, I've added it as an item in the "See also" section. I think that's the appropriate level of coverage in this article. I'm not sure I used the best format; further edits welcome. Cheers, CWC 07:53, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Mohism
I have heard that Mohism takes a similar negative standpoint on oligrachy/monarchy. It could be similar to the Iron law of oligarchy. I don't know if this is worthy enough to get a mention on a Mohism perspective in this article. Komitsuki (talk) 14:38, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Iron cage
I don't know. Does the concept of Iron cage have in common with the Iron law of oligarchy? Tried to include Iron cage in this article but decided not to. Komitsuki (talk) 07:46, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Dubious claims about Wikipedia's immunity
Since the previous discussion of the matter is no longer applicable to the current version, I'm starting a new one. The claim that Wikipedia is somehow not subject to the law is extremely dubious, and the only reference given is by Piotr Konieczny, who has actively participated in the article's editing. That makes it unreliable, and almost certainly running afoul the WP:ORIGINAL policies. You cannot be an active editor, write the article, and use your own publications. Unless and until independent third party references are provided, I will oppose this claim. And I doubt any will ever be found, because Wikipedia is not immune. If anything, it's a perfect example of how the Iron Law holds, even in the face of new and unusual initial structures. mathrick (talk) 14:20, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Piotr is an excellent editor, but if we are going to engage in self-reference, the source should not be one of ourselves. And there are scholarly papers (I come here from listening to one) which present Wikipedia as a type-case of the Iron Law. Either a section - or preferably not at all. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:10, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

The section on Hayes should be removed
The section on Hayes and his "iron law of meritocracy" is irrelevant and is a blatant plug. If you want this to be here without introducing a pov you would have to include myriad supposed political laws - for instance mine: "the iron law of inefficiencies" which holds that the only effective restraint on oligarchy is that its construction inevitably introduces inefficiencies in a nonlinear relation to its amassed political power and thus leads inevitably to its own demise. The section should be removed. 24.4.8.75 (talk) 06:13, 11 June 2013 (UTC)Robert Wood

title: Talk:Iron law of oligarchy