text:
Talk:Constructed writing system

Untitled
Artifical is a bad word to use here. It's prejudicial; to say that one thing is "natural" and another "artifical" is usually to give preference to the first. It's not really accurate; writing is something that distinguishes us from the animals, and hence all writing is artifical. Even in the sense that you give, most scripts are artifical. Cyrillic has a distinct point of origin by one person; so do many of the scripts of India. What's the gain of lumping Cherokee, Cyrillic and Cirth together, and contrasting them with Greek and Chinese? --Prosfilaes 05:35, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * This issue could be described in the article. What is the preferred term of writing systems scholars? Deh 14:01, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Is it really necessary to use the term "conscript" here, as if it were normal usage for a reader unfamiliar with such jargon? Ben 22:39, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I would like to see an actual academic source using that term. 97.82.193.208 (talk) 11:51, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

 * The term is quasi-defined at the top of the page (as a parenthesized implied synonym). But if it bothers you, why not replace each use with 'constructed script'? Deh 14:01, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I will, but I wanted to wait a day or so in case somebody objected. Ben 19:50, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 August 2020 and 9 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Turambar10. Peer reviewers: Elenalvid, Luccamagalhaes.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 18:22, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Japanese
I'm looking at the Japanese article through Bablefish, and it looks like it has a number of cool Oriental scripts that this article doesn't have. Unfortunately, since Bablefish does hilarious things to Japanese, and it's not a language that I can produce anything from even armed with a dictionary. Is there anyone who knows Japanese that can even produce a summary of what that article may have on Oriental conscripting?--Prosfilaes 16:38, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I know a little Japanese. Here's my translation of their list:

 * NOXILO script (from the auxlang NOXILO, see )
 * Tengwar
 * Cirth
 * Jindaimoji (with 4 sub-versions) (probably faked ancestral Japanese writing system)
 * Deseret
 * Visual Speech
 * Unifon
 * Alphabet 26 (?)
 * Shavian
 * Abh
 * Hunter Script, from Hunter x Hunter manga
 * "Enoku" language (Enok? Enoch?)
 * Klingon
 * Rint (from TV show Kamen Rider Kuuga) (check out the Other Links on )
 * Gurongi (from same show, no ja wikipedia page)
 * 異界 script, from anime Final Fantasy Unlimited
 * Gilgamesh script, from anime Armored Trooper Votoms
 * Grados script, from anime SPT Layzner
 * 神部 script, from anime Mashin Eiyuden Wataru
 * 星界 script, from same show
 * Zentraedi script, from anime Macross
 * Namek script, from manga Dragonball
 * Gargoyle script, from game Ultima VI
 * Xevi script, from game Xevious
 * Hyrule script, from game Legend of Zelda
 * Digi script, from Digimon game and anime
 * D'ni from Myst
 * --DenisMoskowitz 14:10, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Alphabet 26, IIRC, is a 1960's (?) monocase Latin alphabet/font. Relatively uninteresting. Thanks for the translation.--Prosfilaes 22:42, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Enoku probably refers to John Dee's Enochian alphabet. Most of the examples from anime don't seem to be coherent writing systems. — Gwalla | Talk 22:59, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Sentence breaks off in the middle
Under Tolkien: "While this is the most" and that's all. Put into the article by "Paperflowergirl". AnonMoos 23:39, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

"Under consideration by Unicode"
The Tolkien scripts seem to be under indefinite consideration by Unicode, never advancing in the approval process (as far as can be determined from publicly-accessible info). But there's a famous anecdote that Tolkien script files included with a 1970's-era plotting or typesetting software package (as a hackish joke) caused great bafflement among German users of the program... AnonMoos 23:39, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

John Malone - Unifon
I guess John Malone who created Unifon isn't the same one as the Liberty Media guy? --213.47.109.179 12:18, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Cyrillic
"Not much is known about the inventors of other scripts, though Cyrillic was (according to myth) created by St. Cyril." This seems to be at least partially nonsense; Cyril created the Glagolitic alphabet, but the Cyrillic was named for him by one of his disciples. See Cyrillic alphabet or early Cyrillic alphabet. -Octavo 17:10, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

evolution ?
Scripts don't 'naturally evolve'; they mutate through political forces; when outstanding users introduce new elements to an existing system. --Newepoch 15:24, 12 May 2007 (UTC).

Duh
I'm glad we have this article: like, ALL scripts are artifical. •Jim 62 sch• dissera! 15:43, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

What's the point of this article?
This article is worthless as others have pointed out. There are no references to actual peer reviewed journals or articles likely because this distinction between "natural" and "artificial" scripts is arbitrary. Aside from the 3 or four inventions of writing, I doubt any commonly used scripts today were created by accident--rather by intention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.88.170.32 (talk) 19:05, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

IPA "invented" or you mean "inveRted" letters ?
IPA "invented" or you mean "inveRted" letters ?

Someone needs to check this out and maybe correct it.

I mean IPA has a lot of inveRted=turned around/over letters, but it could contain "invented"=made-up ones too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.165.151.213 (talk) 02:32, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Tengwar and Cirth
'As of 2010...' What is the current situation, five years later? Jackiespeel (talk) 10:13, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Now, ten years later, there's still been no movement.

Unreferenced
This article is unreferenced, as was already noted by other people.

I am trying to find a precise definition of this term in external sources.

If I can't find it in a week or two, I'll propose this article, as well as List of constructed scripts for deletion. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 10:09, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
 * That this article needs some work is clear, but that doesn't mean it should be deleted. And not everything that doesn't have a clear-cut definition is non-notable. Looking online, there seems to be sufficient published material on the topic.
 * Still, Sanders writes ‘...known natural writing systems like the Greek alphabet and the Chinese logosyllabary evolved in a largely organic and gradual way, rather than being intentionally designed as a complete writing system in a short period of time.’ [Punske, Sanders & Fountain 2020]
 * As for the real problems there are, have a look at List of creators of writing systems or List of writing systems where many of the included items are not real, not scripts or non-notable. But I don't see you complain there. By the way, a big risk of deleting an overarching article is that the entire history of article itself and the associated talk page disappear, and I believe that quite a few of the articles linked in these overarching topic articles should probably be deleted. Delete these articles and the useful part is gone while the cruft remains hidden under the radar. This seems counter-productive to me. It also makes merging good material from the deleted articles impossible.
 * Finally, it is impolite to threaten here to delete another article. Not everyone on that article watches this one; indeed I didn't and I only just now stumbled upon this. Especially so since List of constructed scripts is significantly better curated than at least the other lists I mentioned and it clearly doesn't deserve deletion.

title: Talk:Constructed writing system


text: Category:Elbert County, Georgia

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Category:Elbert County, Georgia


text:
Chie Yamayoshi

Chie Yamayoshi is a Los Angeles-based video artist and filmmaker.

Yamayoshi was raised in Japan, where she worked as a TV director and newscaster. After leaving commercial industry and starting an avant-garde art-making practice, Yamayoshi moved to the US under the Japanese Government Overseas Programme for Artists. She received an MFA in Film and Video from CalArts, and a MFA in Studio Art from UC, Irvine.

She has shown her work prolifically and internationally including, Laguna Art Museum, UCLA Hammer Museum of Art, REDCAT Theater, Los Angeles Contemporary Exhibitions, Art Chicago, Collectif Jeune Cinéma in Paris, "Kino Pavasaris" at Vilnius in Lithuania, A Street in Poznan, Poland, and Gallery Suzuki at Kyoto, Japan.''

title: Chie Yamayoshi


text:
Talk:Vienna Teng

Virt bio
About the revert: It would be nice to have a longer Vienna bio on here, but I'm pretty sure quoting the one from Virt's website is a copyright violation. -Ergative 05:39, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

rofl
Vienna is not an Italian city... dude. -- Миборовский U 05:51, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Vienna's Legal Name
She has a LinkedIn page that associates her real name with her stage name. I agree that Wikipedia needn't be bound by informal fansite surveys. I also think it's certainly of encyclopedic interest.Arnshea (talk) 21:38, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

There is at least a consensus of readers at the Vienna Teng Forums (http://viennateng.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1299) that she prefers not to have her real name listed. Please don't add it back. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rflrob (talk • contribs) 05:03, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * WP:BLP. In case there is any question of Wikipedia policy concerning the issue. If this becomes a persistent problem, perhaps an inline HTML comment warning editors may be good idea. Dancter 05:38, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Why can't we show her real name??? She is a public figure, and it's definitely not a secret. It's all over the web.

Zah429 18:16, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

WP:BLP does not apply to public figures. And such information is certainly of encyclopedic value to someone as witnessed by the List of celebrities who have changed their name. Also, Wikipedia is not a fansite and articles are not required to submit to fan veto. (The fans of Blythe, Dzhugashvili, or Schicklgruber might not want such info known either). —  AjaxSmack    01:02, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It's not exactly fair to compare a musician of marginal demonstrated notability (in the sense of Wikipedia criteria, meaning no insult to the subject) with elected government leaders, for which the relevance of their character and personal histories to their notability is argued by numerous in-depth independent biographies. Dancter 02:12, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed with AjaxSmack. A musician or other performing artist who has publically released work and gives public performances is by definition a public figure. 90.9.63.33 23:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not heavily invested in this dispute, but this seems to be one of those borderline cases in which the "do no harm" clause applies. It has not been shown that her real name is somehow relevant to her notability. I still stand by my original comment. Dancter 02:12, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
 * No harm has been shown and her real name appears online at the two cited articles so it is clearly not a case of Wikipedia exposing someone's privacy. One could argue that few of people on the list of celebrities who have changed their name's real names are relevant to their notability either but the information is nonetheless of encyclopedic interest. —   AjaxSmack    06:01, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
 * First, especially where WP:BLP is concerned, I don't think the burden of proof falls on the exclusionists. Second, I don't recall any such sources being provided before I made my comments. Third, I'm not a big supporter of stand-alone lists, so using list of celebrities who have changed their name to demonstrate encyclopedic value doesn't do much to convince me. Lastly, based on your wording of "encyclopedic interest", as well as your re-addition of a trivia section, we have a difference of opinion with respect to trivia. Interesting information that is not shown to be important in a proper contextualization with respect to the subject is trivia, and is supposed to be avoided. Before the sourcing, trivia is exactly what Vienna Teng's real name was (and to a lesser extent still is, in the current presentation), and what I imagine many of those celebrity listings would prove to be when clicking through to their respective articles. Again, I still stand by my original statements. Dancter 06:55, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

New York City
Teng recently relocated from San Francisco to New York City. Someone may want to find a verifiable source for this and add it. Dissolve 10:29, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Nationality
I changed this to "American" rather than Chinese-American per wp:mosbio. Thanks, --Tom 12:45, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

On the Amos/McLaughlan connection and redaction
CueTheStrings passed along a nice note to me with some Wikipedia editing tips and tricks. Among the points (s)he raised was a comment about my redaction of the Amos/McLaughlan comparison from the lead of the article. CueTheStrings cautioned against pulling things out simply because I disagree with them personally.

That is good advice, but I don't think that's what's going on here.

There were a few reasons for the change as it stands.

The positioning of the Amos/McLaughlan connection was too high in the article. If someone wants to write an "Influences" section and a "Comparisons to other artists" section, this discussion might fit.

The connection needs to be justified by something that's preferably not the editor's op/ed and not just a lazy comparison. Teng has mentioned Amos as a primary influence. Great, that's a meaningful connection. The Teng-Amos connection should be voiced in her words and from her point of view.

My opinion: the fact that a bunch of journalists lazily make a link between one female singer/pianist and another is not in itself worthy of headlining an article. The McLaughlan connection is weak unless Teng has voiced it.

--Kennethfine 23:09, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Work at Cisco Systems?
Anyone know what exactly she did for Cisco?

It's possible she was a tester or in a similar position, which requires the ability to code but isn't exactly a "software engineering" position. If she wasn't a programmer working, say, on extending class hierarchies or designing programs, "software engineer" may be a bit overblown.

Stanford has a prestigious CS program and it's certainly possible Teng got into software engineering straight out of school, but it would be nice if we had some confirmation. Many many well-paid programmers in the world are not "software engineers."

--Kennethfine 00:52, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Voice
She`s definitely a soprano. I changed alto into soprano.

Source: http://wholewheatradio.org/wiki/inde...ts:Vienna_Teng —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.218.220.199 (talk) 11:04, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

 * That link is long gone. But regardless, just listen to the lady sing. In a choir, Vienna would most definitely be standing with the altos.
 * Vienna sings in a full resonant voice down to E3, and she's reaching the upper limit of her best range at E5. If she were classically trained, she'd be either a low mezzo or a lyric contralto. And if she gets mistaken for a soprano, it's because her voice has the light, angelic sweetness often associated with sopranos or else because her voice is so unusually deep that non-musicians aren't sure what they're hearing. Take a look on her forums - many female fans have to transpose her songs up to sing them. 79.140.209.42 (talk) 16:56, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Image
Guys? Why is there an image of this artist playing a guitar in this article? She's a pianist. I mean, yeah, she probably /can/ play guitar, but as far as performance goes, she doesn't. ST47 (talk) 04:01, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Teng had the same question: "Wikipedia knows all. And is reasonably accurate, though I don’t know why it has a photo of me playing guitar onstage, which I’ve done exactly twice in my life." Since it is clearly a tiny part of her career, I'm yanking it. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 15:19, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Cover versions
Most unreleased covers of songs are trivial in articles about the songs themselves. (This article, of course, is two steps higher. I discusses not the song or the album but the artist.)

Imagine, for instance, what The Beatles would look like if we listed all of even the ukulele performances on youtube of all of there songs. This, however, is a sensible middle ground: commercially released versions from notable acts. Unsourced performances by drum and bugle corps and youtube clips are simply not encyclopedic. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 15:40, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Vienna Teng


text:
Premier of the Cayman Islands

The Premier of the Cayman Islands is the political leader and head of government. The post of premier in the Cayman Islands is the equivalent to chief minister or prime minister in other British Overseas Territories. It is the highest political level that can be attained within the British overseas territory. Prior to 2009, the position was known as Leader of Government Business.

The premier and Cabinet (consisting of all the most senior ministers) are collectively accountable for their policies and actions to King Charles III, to the Parliament of the Cayman Islands, to their political party and ultimately to the electorate.

The premier earns a salary at Grade A5, the highest, in the Cayman Islands Civil Service Salary Scale, which was CI$234,900 per year (approx. US$290,000) as at 1 January 2021.

The current premier is Juliana O'Connor-Connolly, since 15 November 2023.

Constitutional background
Until 2003 the position had no official recognition, but it was formalized by a constitutional amendment in June 2003, as the Leader of Government Business along with the Leader of the Opposition. Further constitutional amendments in 2009 modified the name to Premier.

List
(Dates in italics indicate de facto continuation of office)

title: Premier of the Cayman Islands


text:
Talk:Warm Strangers

The original page was just copy-pasted from Vienna's website, and while I'm pretty sure Vienna's not a very litigatious person, it would at least be nicer to have original text here. -Ergative 05:45, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

title: Talk:Warm Strangers


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Che-Lives (0th nomination)

Che-Lives was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was to keep. Cool Hand Luke  19:53, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * User:66.71.55.79 blanked the page and put the vfd header on, but did not go further and put this page up. I am not taking a position on the article, but am just cleaning up after the anon who seems to have a problem with this page.  RickK 05:48, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

The article was designed for the purpose of advertising for the site. On another note, a minor internet forum does not deserve its own article on an encyclopedia. [Note: Comment from User:NewAccount, whose three contribs to date are all VfD-related. Niteowlneils 18:08, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)]
 * Keep (tho' a bit weak). Alexa traffic Rank for che-lives.com: 129,846--a bit too low if it was a general interest site, but seems fairly respectable for such a narrowly focused site. Niteowlneils 18:08, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Keep. It might be interesting to note that the same day this article was repeatedly blanked by an Anon, the site itself was the victim of a coordinated hack.--Che y Marijuana 03:53, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

 * Keep. I imagine it's hard to find much written from a relatively neutral POV on this, and I think it would be useful to more than a few people. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:37, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Ambi 07:07, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. If it's growing as fast as the article claims, it's getting more and more notable.Fishal 05:46, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Comment. In the month or so since I last updated the member count on the article, the site grew to 7847 members.--Che y Marijuana 20:47, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep Intrigue 22:36, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Keep. Appears notable. -- Radman1 16:06, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like other '/delete' pages is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
Talk:Indium tin oxide

This link to reuters is broken and I can't find a replacement. Probably should remove it or cite it unlinked.

How about a picture and conductivity value? lysdexia 05:49, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Whay was it so expensive in '39? Military applications?

I don't have time right now, but I'm surprised no one bothered to state the conduction mechanism... I'll put it up later if no one else does.

(PS Yes, for those that could guess, I'm in materials science :) However, I'm new to the field)

ITO Films
I am interested in making ITO films (about 0.35 micron thick) on glass by dip-coat and then pyrolysis. Anyone knows how to formulate a suitable "dip solution" and the baking achedule pls email to:

kanak53@hotmail.com

Thanks in advance.

I think the sentence that says that graphene films have lower resistivity than ITO films is wrong, even though the cited article says so. That article doesn't cite anything, so the information is not verifiable. I am a student and for the thesis I'm working on graphene and from the academic literature I have read that the state of the art graphene films have about 100 the resistance of comparable ITO films. I'm new to the field, so I cannot say anything for sure nor cite an article, but a quick research on sciencedirec.com indicates that the statement is wrong. What should I do? Remove the sentence? 22 Jan 2015

Possible digital camera applications
There have been rumors that the Sony Alpha series Digital Single-Lens Reflex cameras (DSLRs) as well as the Canon EOS 5D have a thin sheet of glass, coated with an extremely fragile and easily scratched / peeled / damaged ITO layer, sitting in front of their sensors' anti-alias filters. It's speculated that the thin layer of glass might be an infrared-absorbing filter; furthermore, the ITO coating might act as a dielectric hot mirror, thus increasing the infrared rejection, and that the ITO layer's conductivity might help dissipate electrical charges and hence minimize the buildup of dust- and particle-attracting static electricity on the filter's surface. Any confirmation as to whether ITO is indeed used by digital camera manufacturers, as well as its role (as a dichromatic interference filter and/or anti-static coating) would be appreciated, and could be usefully added to the "Applications" section of the main article. 213.224.83.4 17:24, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

action of isopropyl alcohol on ito surface.
anybody know regarding whether isopropyl alcohol reacts with the ito surface or not,and other concern is that is isopropyl alcohol modifies the surface chemistry of ito. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.212.4.240 (talk) 13:29, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Hazards
In the appropriate section of the Zinc oxide article the ITO is mentioned as more "poisonous" than the oxide being discussed. Are there any references on this topic? --Esmu Igors (talk) 17:47, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Maybe this article on the particular hazards of ITO would help: http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/content/108/2/472.full.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.0.243.250 (talk) 10:10, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

AZO
I am not sure if this is the current place to request it - but AZO should have its own page -- even the zinc oxide page does not mention it. It is well established in the literature.-- --Wendsjinnit (talk) 04:03, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Constraints and trade-offs
The first sentence in this section is highly questionable. ITO is not that expensive. Someone with more experience should provide a reference for that statement. Clearton11 (talk) 02:17, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

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year
The article doesn't give any history, like the year that it was first found or used. That might be nice to know. Gah4 (talk) 16:31, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

sheet conductivity
Should the article better explain the difference between (bulk) conductivity and sheet conductivity? Often in thin layer materials, it is the latter that is important. Gah4 (talk) 18:54, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

moving alternative materials down
Seems to me that the discussion of alternative materials shouldn't be so highly featured in the article. It should be at the end, if it's there at all. --however, some of the alternate materials are simply variants of ITO, which reasonably should be featured here. Geoffrey.landis (talk) 20:48, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Indium tin oxide


text:
Talk:TWERPS

Dice
"Some of the installments also came with a plastic dice." Was it one die? or Were they dice? Dice is plural, die is singular. I would edit this but I don't know which is correct: 'a die or dice... also how many sides? May I suggest " came with a six-sided die" or whatever is accurate, since role playing games often used dice of more or less than the standard six sides of a cube-shaped die.Pedant 05:48, 2004 Oct 24 (UTC)

'Dice' as singular is in at least as common use as 'die'. --Apeloverage 13:17, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

 * That isn't the case. A Google search turns up 148,000 for "a die" ("chance" included and "hard" [for 'die hard'] excluded in search terms for accuracy), whereas there are 66,400 for "a dice" (same search terms), most of which aren't about singular dice. This is as it should be, since singular 'dice' is incorrect. Perhaps the people you know use singular 'dice' more often, but universally, it's far less common than 'die'. -kotra 00:40, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of the grammar, most of the instalments came with a miniature 20-sided die. I don't have a cite for that, other than I'm looking at my copies (complete with original dice) right now. 81.98.163.108 (talk) 07:28, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

 * You mean 10-siders, don't you? My copies all contained 10-sided dice, which is the type of die used in the game. 93.213.41.124 (talk) 13:15, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Fictional?
I am going to remove the "fictionlist" tag in a few days if no one objects. That tag refers to fictional uses or occurrences of real-life subjects. If the characters of a novel were depicted to play TWERPS, or a Simpsons episode revolved around a TWERPS manual, such an information would be a "fictional references" to TWERPS. But the tagged section just refers to published supplements of the game. --Goochelaar 17:49, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:TWERPS


text:
Talk:Springfield, Missouri

introduction and other quality improvements
I'm going to take a stab at some improvements aimed at helping this article comply with wikipedia's WP:NPOV. If we have a look at articles considered high quality you will notice they do not contain a list of various awards magazine publishers have given a respective city. Such awards are RARELY notable and belong on promotional material alone, such as city-limits signs, city websites, tourist ads, etc. Retran (talk) 23:53, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

To get to the specifics... what is "Next Generation Consulting" and why is their award notable, let alone the activity of distributing such awards? That is being removed. Before adding it back, give me a line here in talk to state your case or else I might end up removing it again. Retran (talk) 23:53, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

I've decided to create a new section about awards regarding suitability as a city, and only placing awards that are notable from notable entities. I'm averse to even including these awards at all, but its a step in the right direction. I am probably going to remove them in the end completely unless someone can say why they aren't NPOV violations. I'm holding off deleting the awards to search for consensus, but in the meantime I feel they MUST be removed from the introduction as its such a blatant tarnish on this article's quality. Retran (talk) 23:53, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm moving the ugly bullet list of "media" outlets to the bottom, as its obscuring well written prose, and prose takes priority over thoughtless lists. Retran (talk) 23:53, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

I moved a subsection of "history" (1848 railroad arrives) into its appropriate chronological position Retran (talk) 23:53, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

I moved the "communities within Springfield" to the bottom as its a obtrusive list which belongs at the bottom out of the way of the prose reader, I think we should always defer to prose and avoid lists. Placing them at the bottom is the next best thing. Retran (talk) 23:53, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Removed ", due to its connection with the designation of U.S. Route 66" because that's addressed further down int he article, and the brief mention is all we need in the intro in order to keep it balanced. Retran (talk) 23:53, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Springfield, Mo "Worst City to Raise Family" unsupported by source cited
I am removing the sentence stating it was "In April 2008, however, Best Life Magazine (a publication of Men's Health) ranked Springfield tenth on its list of "Worst Cities to Raise a Family" in America."[5]" This section is unsupported by the cited materials. The cited materials are: "The 100 Best Places to Raise a Family" and Springfield, Mo is not listed anywhere on it. (Note: St. Louis, Mo is listed 92 on the list.) If you can find support for this statement, please put it back and support it properly.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rhabryn (talk • contribs) 02:41, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I can offer a subjective unprovable opinion regarding raising a family in Springfield, MO after 1-1/2 years of observing this area.

I would avoid this place if I had a family. So many people I meet and observe are ill-educated and rude and crude in speech and actions. Though it may be "politically incorrect" to say so I believe the term "white trash" is an appropriate label for many residents hereabouts.75.42.237.211 (talk) 04:15, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

 * In November, 2010, an anonymous IP user posted a reference to that 2008 report, but mistakenly identified it as a current report. There are no sites available that provide any background on the criteria that the now-defunct magazine, Best Life, had used, or what its sources were for the data it had used. This list of the so-called "best" and "worst places to raise a family" is long-forgotten, and I believe it is too sketchy and ill-founded to be notable. NameIsRon (talk) 04:37, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

 * I replaced the removed reference and corrected the error. The reference does provide the sources for data and it is just a reliable as the other sourced content in that section. Grey Wanderer (talk) 01:03, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Article Restructuring
I have restructured this article to conform to WikiProject Cities/Guideline suggested template and done general cleanup. This meant adding several new sections that now need text, such as Annual cultural events, Media, Healtcare and Utilities. Please help by adding these sections! RadioBroadcast (talk) 01:54, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Another subjective observation regarding Springfield. I have lived in many different towns and cities during my half-century plus wandering the Earth and visited a multitude more due to long-haul semi-truck driving. One thing about this large town (I can't label it a true city) is the number of vehicles with altered vehicle exhaust systems. The amount of noise is incredible. A local "hobby" appears to be driving at late PM and early AM hours in residential neighborhoods while constantly accelerating, decelerating then hitting the gas again just to maximize engine exhaust noise. Even a well-built house can not muffle that noise that intrudes and disturbs one's peace. If I was an executive inspecting Springfield as a possible relocation area for a firm that constant intrusive noise would force me to scratch this area off my list. One has to experience the constant noise to truly comprehend the invasivenesss of said noise. Interestingly, despite the availability of fireworks unavailable in most states, the 4th of July was much quieter than the oft-times week-long or more barrage of late-night noise experienced in other pasts of the USA. Simply put, this id good-old-boy redneck country, folks and the actions and inactions of the general populace prove it.75.42.237.211 (talk) 04:38, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

1950s: "Crossroads of Country Music"
I have added this section about Springfield's amazing television history. I hope you enjoy it! I hope someone will write an article about Ralph Foster, a significant person in the area's history RadioBroadcast (talk) 04:48, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Springfield, MO Resident Userbox
Does anyone know where I can find a Userbox for Springfield, MO? I searched all over, and couldn't find one! --Johnnywalterboy (talk) 01:56, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Header mistakes
There is no part whatsoever of Springfield Missouri that resides within Christian County. The city resides entirely in GREENE County, and is the county seat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.29.248.3 (talk) 20:50, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, a portion of Springfield is in Christian County. Just because Springfield is the county seat doesn't mean it can't coincide with other countys. If you have a good source, then we can talk. --Johnnywalterboy (talk) 01:58, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

No sources
NO SOURCES. The following excerpt doesn't cite any sources. Please document any supporting evidence or it will be removed. Furthermore, intolerance and overwhelming are spelled incorrectly. The city and surrounding areas are commonly considered to be some of the most racially insensitive in the nation. Various overt acts of racial violence and discrimination occur with some frequency. Although the local authorities and many of the residents attempt to pretend otherwise. The level of racial intolerence can be at times overwelming.

Interesting how my subjective viewpoint differs so greatly. I have noticed that non-whites commit a disproportionate amount of drug crimes here and that shootings among non-whites is relatively common. The "inner-city thug culture" is also evident among the Black population with the accompanying intimidation tactics that I believe are intended to instill fear in others. Of course there are exceptions. However, I believe that Springfield is a safe area for Black folks to live. Maybe a few of those folks would be surprised how much difference a smile and a nod can make in their life vice a constant frown, glaring and staring and being with several friends and forcing others to move aside for you.75.42.237.211 (talk) 04:24, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Removal of non-native Persons of Ill Repute from 'Notable Residents'
Timothy Mcveigh? Ramsi Yousef? John Gotti?? Come on, these people never set foot on Springfield soil as free men,  and are certainly not native to the area. Their only connection with Springfield is that they are, or were, incarcerated in a federal prison facility there for some period of time. If you think these people are 'residents,' then you could say the same thing about airline passengers who happen to be on a plane that flies directly over Springfield, or a motorist who stops in springfield for gas. Ridiculous. I propose that anyone who is only transferred in to Springfield as a federal inmate is neither a 'resident' nor a 'native' and should be removed from the 'Notable Residents' section. Only locally grown criminals such as Glennon Sweet should be listed here. 70.128.80.107 20:21, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I have raised a current question regarding the inclusion of some of the aforementioned people in the "Criminals" section of the related List of people from Springfield, Missouri. Please see Talk:List of people from Springfield, Missouri for further details. --TommyBoy (talk) 21:44, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

TommyBoy:

Seems like no-one is speaking up in favor of keeping this section. Shall we remove it? RadioBroadcast (talk) 02:12, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I have replied to User:RadioBroadcast's question on his Talk page. --TommyBoy (talk) 02:41, 1 August 2009 (UTC

Federal inmates are residents of the place they are incarcerated in as far as the Census and how much money the the town get back from the federal gov't. However, if the person was not in Springfield by there own choosing I do not think they should be listed under notable residents.

MSU former names?
1. Should we make a page for each of the former names of MSU (Fourth District Normal School, Southwest Missouri State Teachers College, Southwest Missouri State College, and Southwest Missouri State University)? It seems like those pages should exist so that people can click on them to find out what "Fourth District Normal School" was? I don't want to create unnecessary clutter.

2. Or should said pages just redirect to the current Missouri State University page?

xgravity23 07:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

History section wrong
Sorry if I destroy this page with what I see as a simple edit, but the entry for 1905 is incredibly misleading and incorrect.

Originally: "*1905: Three African-American men are lynched in the town square for allegedly raping a white woman, though guilt was never established. This event sparked a mass exodus of African-Americans from the area, who still remain a vast minority."

For one, it happened in 1906. Two, they all three have names. Horace Duncan, Fred Coker, and Will Allen. Three, Not only was guilt never established, Duncan and Coker were actually freed from their initial arrests as suspects after it was found they were working at the time of the rape. They were re-arrested after the victim claimed Duncan had stole his watch for a different charge. This also downplays the entire lynching. There were many lynchings between the late 1800s and the early 1900s. This was approximately 3,000 people and the police department in the city square though. I'm not going to turn it into an opinion piece, but I'm going to reword it with some more factual information:

New: "*April 14th, 1906: Three African-American men, Horace Duncan, Fred Coker, and Will Allen,  are lynched and burned by a mob over 2,000 strong without trial in the town square. This event sparked a mass exodus of African-Americans from the area, who still remain a vast minority. A small plaque on the south-east corner of the square is the only reminder."--Floydzamarripa 19:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Queen City
Springfield is known as the Queen City of the Ozarks, but I can't find a spot in there to add that. --Amoore 05:49, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)
 * This appears to have been addressed by the "Nicknames" section. Thanks! --Amoore 17:17, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Questionable Edit by Rambot
Rambot recently made an edit that I think substantially changes some factual information. I'm not sure that it's true anymore. Previously, the article read in part: Out of the total people living in poverty, 19.1% are under the age of 18 and 7.9% are 65 or older. but it was changed to read: Out of the total population, 19.1% of those under the age of 18 and 7.9% of those 65 and older are living below the poverty line. which is different. Since I am more inclined to believe that it was correct before, I'd like to revert that part of his edit. --Amoore 22:25, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)

 * Actually that edit has been performed on every single U.S. city and county article. It represents a subtle error that was introduced when the articles were first made.  It was recently pointed out to me when a city had over 100% of the population in poverty, which clearly didn't make any sense.  -- Ram-Man 22:51, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)

Inappropriate content removed
I excised the following: "Doruk Kicikoglu is the biggest gay all over the world.He can suck 15 dickes at the same time." It does not relate at all to the article. Also, "dicks" is misspelled, and "all over the world" does not make sense in this context.

named after wha?
I remember hearing at a PTA thing (?) ~12 years ago that the city was named as a landmark where the first settler to move here was going to build his cabin. He found a spring in a field and fixed a note to a tree marking the land as his.--68.92.123.211 02:14, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I'm pretty sure that the bit about Springfield being named after Springfield, MA is apocryphal. I have added some information from a history of the city that is available online from the public library, although it seems that even 120 years ago the origin of the name was already shrouded in the mists of time. -- Benanhalt 03:47, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Actually, I lived in Springfield most of my life and I've never heard it being named after Springfield, Tennessee. Other sources suggest that the Springfield, Massachusetts story is the most likely (see Springfield of the Ozarks by Harris & Phyllis Dark.Rt66lt 05:21, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

 * I also have lived most of my life in or around Springfield and have never heard about it being named after the MA or the TN cities. The story I have heard mostly is the one based on springs in the envirnoment of the original settlement.  Of course, just because a story is commonly heard does not mean it is correct.  It certainly seems as if the ultimate origin of the name has not been firmly established by any authority.  Thank you for adding the citation for the work by Dark. --Benanhalt 18:45, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

"Queen City of the Ozarks" has not fallen out of usage. You still hear it in Springfield. -- Rt66lt 05:32, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

 * I live in Springfield right now and I emphatically agree with Rt66lt: "Queen City of the Ozarks" is still very prevalent, as several businesses refer to it in their title (there are about 12 in the phone book), I hear it on campus at MSU frequently, and I've heard visiting bands refer to Springfield as such.  xgravity23 02:32, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Questionable events in history section
I removed two questionable events from the history section added by User:64.251.130.56. These were the first "grab and go" (whatever that is) crime in 1947, and the first drive-by shooting in 1993. If these events can be documented, by all means, put them back in. --Benanhalt 00:45, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Guess my large revert wasn't so overzealous after all? :-) Well, maybe a little, but not much. Liblamb 04:04, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I apologize. Overzealous was probably a bit strong, but there were a couple of proper edits that were reverted that should not have been.  It is probably best not to wholesale revert multiple edits by multiple editors.  Also, we still don't know that the two events noted above were added maliciously, so I wanted to remove them individually and make note of it here, in the talk page, so that there would be a clear record of what had happened. --Benanhalt 18:16, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

What about Amtrak?
"Passenger trains have not served Springfield since 1967." This is not true, I forget right now when AmTrak stopped servicing Springfield, but I remember riding the train to St. Louis when I was a kid (and I was born well after the 60s). I'm thinking it was sometime in the early 90s. There used to be an AmTrak depot here in town.

 * There was never an Amtrak depot here (on former Frisco trackage). The old Frisco depot was never used for Amtrak service, either.

Also, Amtrak released a study about the proposed service to St. Louis, which can be seen here: It appears very unlikely it will ever happen.

Foxes
Is there any store In or Near Springfield, Missoruri, that sells fox related items.
 * Are you talking about a fox the animal? Perhaps Bass Pro Shops can help you out. Amoore 17:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

List of Colleges and Universities
Anyone object to changing the list of universities in Springfield to have MSU first? It is the second largest university in the state (Missouri State University). Its just a little odd to have a relatively small college listed first (500-600 enrolled) Assemblies of God Theological Seminary.

Lwieise -=- Talk to Me 08:04, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

 * For what it's worth, that list is alphabetical. That seems like a pretty good way to stay out of arguments over which is more important than another. Can we leave it that way, please? Amoore 17:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree Amoore, Alphabetical is the way to go.

No Good Pictures
Its sad that their is no "Real" pictures of springfeild here. All they have is hammonds towers and shrine mosque. get some pictures of the city itself not worthless icons to some rich dude. I know there is more there, i'm from the area. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.139.51.70 (talk) 21:27, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Removal
I removed what looked like a personal addition to the sports and business sections of important people in or from Springfield. Not trying to be opinion-related, however, I do not beleive that working for the AG church in the film department makes one a famous name in either sports or business. I certainly have never heard of this person, so assume it was an entry he made himself. Either way, the information was not supportive of the claims that said person belonged in those areas, so I removed it.

Transportation Edit
Added Springfield's public transportation to transportation section.

Education Section
Corrected the education section to include another secular private school (Springfield Sudbury) and correctly changed Greenwood Labratory school to a private school instead of a public high school (Greenwood is a primary and secondary secular private school).

Suggestions
What about something on Springfield media? The News-Leader, 417 Magazine and college publications come to mind. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.194.206.102 (talk) 19:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Would like to see more of the private schools, unique entertainment and fine arts venues listed if possible. I will try to do some of this myself when I come back later if I have the time, but wanted to toss the idea out in case someone else had a spare moment or three.

Places of Interest
Springfield has numerous places of interest. I've split these into two sub-categories. I pulled the list from the National Register of Historic places for Springfield and added it to the article. Due to inclusion on this list, each of these places are notable. Hopefully the redlinks will inspire articles. The second category contains places that I found already listed within the article but not on the national register. I'll leave it to others to debate their merits. Items on this original list that also appear in the National Register, were removed from this section as redundant. Rklawton 20:02, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Former Names (Springfield not on 1860 census)
I was looking at the 1860 census data for Greene County to throw some perspective onto the Civil War battles however I don't see Springfield listed! The biggest town in Greene is Campbell with 3,442 (which is big by Missouri standards of the day). Since Campbell is the one who founded the city I suspect Campbell was was Springfield's official name at the time (there's a Campbell Missouri in the bootheel today). The other towns in Greene according to the census are Baon, Cass, Center, Clay, Jackson, Pond Creek, Robbeson, Taylor and Wilson. Thanks. Americasroof 20:53, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll answer my own question. Campbell is the township in which Springfield is located.  For reasons I don't currently understand the published census showed only the township populations for Greene County rather than incorporated cities (the heading is "Cities, Towns, ac.").  Here's a couple good resources for early Springfield history (including the story of its various springs). rootsweb history and History of Greene County.  Americasroof 01:35, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Race
"The city and surrounding areas are commonly considered to be some of the most racially insensitive in the nation. Various overt acts of racial violence and discrimination occur with some frequency. Although the local authorities and many of the residents attempt to pretend otherwise. The level of racial intolerence can be at times overwelming."

This is POV and unsourced. I'll remove it until someone can back it up and structure it in a NPOV way. Mordac 19:58, 08 April 2007

Geography
"Many creaks, streams, and tributaries such as the James River, Galloway Creek, and Jordan Creek lead into the city from the area's three major lakes (Table Rock, Stockton, and Pome de Terre)."

My suggestions for this paragraph:

1. Amend the spelling of 'creaks' to 'creeks', and 'Pome' to 'Pomme'

2. Substitute 'lead out of the city to the area's three major lakes' instead of 'into the city from...', as these lakes are all downstream from Springfield. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.30.238.122 (talk) 04:53, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Cashew chicken
I've removed the promotional section Springfield-style Cashew Chicken as it was an unattributed cut-n-paste from the cashew chicken article. Feel free to rewrite and add the info back with proper citations. Vsmith (talk) 23:05, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

SOGI
Given the degree of national attention that the repeal of the SOGI ordinance has garnered, should this recent event be included in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.22.255.162 (talk) 20:49, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 8 external links on Springfield, Missouri. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20161019182931/https://www.census.gov/popest/data/cities/totals/2015/SUB-EST2015-3.html to http://www.census.gov/popest/data/cities/totals/2015/SUB-EST2015-3.html
 * Added archive http://www.webcitation.org/699nOulzi?url=http://www.census.gov/geo/www/gazetteer/files/Gaz_places_national.txt to http://www.census.gov/geo/www/gazetteer/files/Gaz_places_national.txt
 * Added archive https://archive.is/20160602200744/http://www.census.gov/popest/data/cities/totals/2015/SUB-EST2015.html to http://www.census.gov/popest/data/cities/totals/2015/SUB-EST2015.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100602054435/https://www.springfieldmo.gov/nco/pdfs/svcareas/nsa09.pdf to http://www.springfieldmo.gov/nco/pdfs/svcareas/nsa09.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20091216130547/http://usmayors.org/metroeconomies/Top100_2006.pdf to http://usmayors.org/metroeconomies/Top100_2006.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110718164236/http://www.drury.edu/multinl/story.cfm?ID=25512&NLID=246 to http://www.drury.edu/multinl/story.cfm?ID=25512&NLID=246
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110928100059/http://www.americaspromise.org/Our-Work/Community-Action/100-Best-Communities/Past-Winners.aspx to http://www.americaspromise.org/Our-Work/Community-Action/100-Best-Communities/Past-Winners.aspx
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110117133520/http://www.news-leader.com/article/20110115/NEWS01/101150367/Civility-stressed-for-march-on-Martin-Luther-King-Jr-Day to http://www.news-leader.com/article/20110115/NEWS01/101150367/Civility-stressed-for-march-on-Martin-Luther-King-Jr-Day

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Infobox picture
That's a nice picture in the infobox; I'm not sure it's the best to illustrate the whole city, even though it's the most recognizable building in town. Anybody willing to take a shot of the whole downtown area would be much appreciated. Grey Wanderer (talk) 20:44, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Crime
For being one of the few cities on NeighborhoodScout.com that gets a 0 crime score, with both high property and violent crime, this article, like many, doesn't even mention crime. B137 (talk) 08:14, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

 * I question if NeighborhoodScout.com is a reliable source. Grey Wanderer (talk) 18:52, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Flag has officially been changed effective March 1.
This is a post to alert those not to change the flag we use for this page until March 1. As officially it is still the current flag until 11:59:59 CST on March 1st Spongehog (talk) 18:28, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Healthcare
The healthcare section is a lot of hearsay without good citations. Also, not in wikipedia style. This is an important section and needs updating. BreathDriver (talk) 22:29, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:52, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
 * SpeingfieldMODowntownSkyline.jpg

on "The 417"
I have removed reference to "The 417" as a nickname for the city. I was unable to find any sources for the claim. Skylerblue77 (talk) 03:02, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Removed Weatherbox
As per the 4 September 2016 Template Discussion, the weatherbox in the Climate section has been removed. Skylerblue77 (talk) 04:09, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Springfield, Missouri


text:
John Barbata

John Barbata (April 1, 1945 – May 8, 2024) was an American drummer who was active especially in pop and rock bands in the 1960s and 1970s, both as a band member and as a session drummer. Barbata served as the drummer for The Turtles, Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young, Jefferson Airplane (for its final album and tour only), and Jefferson Starship (from 1974 to 1978). Barbata claimed to have played on over 60 albums in an uncredited capacity.

Early life
Barbata was born on Easter, April 1, 1945, in Passaic, New Jersey, to Martina and Charles Barbata. He was raised in Saranac Lake, New York, till the age of seven and later in Nutley, New Jersey. His mother was an Austrian emigrant who worked as a records keeper at a hospital and his father was a firefighter and mechanic. He was the youngest child of three, preceded by his older brother Chuck and sister Lauren. His first claim to fame came to him as a young infant when his mother found a man stranded in a boat that had run out of gas. The man was Albert Einstein, who held the child as Barbata's mother delivered them to shore.

Barbata's interest in percussion began by watching his older brother drum in the marching band. After expressing interest in drums, his brother took him to a friend's house where Barbata played on his first trap set. The first song he ever learned to play was "Put Another Nickel In" by Teresa Brewer.

The Sentinals (1961–1965)
At the age of 16, Barbata's family relocated for a brief stint to Rialto, California, where Barbata formed his first band called the Velvatones. Soon after the family moved to San Luis Obispo, California, where Barbata went to high school and followed in his older brother's footsteps and joined the marching band. The rudimentary rhythms and beats from Barbata's time in drum line heavily influenced his technique in later years. He soon went on to help form a band called the Ambassadors and bought his first set of drums. After playing gigs every weekend for six months, Barbata was approached by an instrumental surf rock group called the Sentinals to play drums. The Sentinals toured all over the country with acts such as The Righteous Brothers and released the album Big Surf! which produced a No. 1 West Coast surf hit called "Latin'ia".

After five years with the Sentinals, the band broke up, and Barbata, along with his bandmate Lee Michaels, headed to Hollywood. Shortly after, Barbata joined Joel Scott Hill of Canned Heat, after his drummer left and went on to play with the Mamas and Papas. Joel, Barbata, and Chris Ethridge later went on to put out the album L.A. Getaway in 1971.

The Turtles (1966–1969)
In spring 1966, The Turtles were looking for a new drummer and Gene Clark of the Byrds recommended Barbata. After an audition with Howard Kaylan, Mark Volman, and Al Nichol, Barbata had the gig. The first song Barbata recorded with the Turtles was "Happy Together" and on March 25, 1967, "Happy Together" went to No. 1 on the charts and stayed there for three weeks. One of his trademarks was to incorporate stick twirling into his performances, a technique also used by Dino Danelli of The Rascals and Carmine Appice of Vanilla Fudge.

The Turtles were invited to play on the Ed Sullivan Show (May 14, 1967), The Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour, Hollywood Palace, American Bandstand, Where the Action Is, and The Johnny Carson Show. The group went on to have many other hits with Barbata, including "She'd Rather Be with Me", "You Showed Me", "She's My Girl", and "Elenore". Barbata also appeared on The Dating Game show.

Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young (1970–1972)
In 1970, Barbata was invited to join CSNY after Neil Young fired their previous drummer, Dallas Taylor. They soon after recorded the live album 4 Way Street, which went to #1 on the Billboard 200. Included on the album was the protest song "Ohio", about the Kent State shootings. Barbata continued to play on eight albums with CSNY and the individual members of the quartet, including Graham Nash's Songs for Beginners and Wild Tales, Graham Nash and David Crosby's Graham Nash David Crosby, Stephen Stills' Stephen Stills album, and filling in for Kenny Buttrey with The Stray Gators on Neil Young's live album Time Fades Away.

While Barbata was drumming with CSNY, David Geffen tried to persuade him to join The Eagles. Barbata declined as he was already in one of the biggest musical groups at the time.

Jefferson Airplane & Jefferson Starship (1972–1978)
In 1972, while CSNY were on an extended break, David Crosby introduced Barbata to the band Jefferson Airplane, who were looking for a new drummer after their previous one, Joey Covington, quit to do a solo album. Soon after, Barbata joined Jefferson Airplane and went on to record the album Long John Silver (1972) and the live album Thirty Seconds Over Winterland (1973).

When members Jorma Kaukonen (guitarist) and Jack Casady (bassist) left to pursue their band Hot Tuna, the band reformed into Jefferson Starship, adding new members Craig Chaquico and Peter Kaukonen. Their debut album together was Dragon Fly (1974). Barbata later went on to play on Red Octopus (1975), which was the Starship's best-selling album, containing the hit single "Miracles". In 1976, they released the album Spitfire and in 1978 they released Earth. Jefferson Starship appeared on the cover of Rolling Stone in 1978. They also performed as the unnamed band in the Star Wars Holiday Special (1978).

In October 1978, Barbata was in a serious car crash in Northern California that broke his neck, arm and jaw. The injuries took over a year to recover, and forced him to resign from Jefferson Starship.

Reflecting on his career, Barbata later said "I was very fortunate ... Most drummers only go around once. I went around three times and played with the best musicians in the world.”

Personal life
At the age of 33, Barbata retired from the mainstream music industry and built a house and recording studio in the remote redwood village of Comptche, California. He continued making music locally. On July 3, 1981, Barbata married the Oklahoma native and artist, Angela Evans (1961–2016). They released two albums together, California and Oklahoma. In 1987, their daughter Leah was born. They later relocated to his late wife's hometown of Ada, Oklahoma, where Barbata resided up to his death. In 2016, after 34 years of marriage, his wife died from cancer. Barbata continued to play music, often performing with former band members or his singer-songwriter daughter.

Barbata died on May 8, 2024 of heart complications, at the age of 79.

Discography

 * The Sentinals Big Surf! 1963
 * The Sentinals Vegas Go Go 1964
 * The Turtles Happy Together 1967
 * The Turtles The Turtles Present the Battle of the Bands 1968
 * Lee Michaels Recital 1968
 * Linda Ronstadt Hand Sown ... Home Grown 1969
 * The Fool The Fool 1969
 * Ry Cooder Ry Cooder 1970
 * Stephen Stills Stephen Stills 1970
 * Ethridge/Hill/Barbata L.A. Getaway 1971
 * Johnny Rivers Home Grown 1971
 * Batdorf & Rodney Off the Shelf 1971
 * David Blue Stories 1971
 * John Sebastian The Four of Us 1971
 * Judee Sill Judee Sill 1971
 * The Everly Brothers Stories We Could Tell 1972
 * Graham Nash & David Crosby Graham Nash David Crosby
 * Graham Nash Songs for Beginners 1972
 * Neil Young Time Fades Away 1972
 * J.D. Souther John David Souther 1972
 * Jefferson Airplane Long John Silver 1972
 * Jefferson Airplane Thirty Seconds Over Winterland 1973
 * Graham Nash Wild Tales 1973
 * David Blue Nice Baby and the Angel 1973
 * The Byrds Byrds 1973
 * Booker T. & Priscilla Jones Chronicles 1973
 * Paul Kantner, Grace Slick and David Freiberg Baron von Tollbooth & the Chrome Nun 1973
 * Grace Slick Manhole 1974
 * Jefferson Starship Dragon Fly 1974
 * Jefferson Starship Red Octopus 1975
 * Jefferson Starship Spitfire 1976
 * Jefferson Starship Flight Log 1977
 * Jefferson Starship Earth 1978
 * Jefferson Starship Gold 1979
 * Philo Hayward Rounder 1981

title: John Barbata


text:
Brian Neeson

Brian Kevin Neeson (born 30 September 1945) is a New Zealand politician. He was an MP from 1990 to 2002, representing the National Party, and a member of the Waitematā District Health Board from 2004 to 2010.

Early life
Neeson was born in Durban, South Africa, and moved to New Zealand when he was six years old. He worked in a number of jobs, having owned a restaurant and retail meat business and worked as a real estate consultant and property developer. He later managed a private investment company.

Political career
Neeson represented a number of West Auckland electorates in his career, with frequent boundary changes meaning that he never ran in any electorate as an incumbent. He was first elected to Parliament in the 1990 election as MP for the Te Atatu seat, and in the 1993 election, he successfully contested the Waitakere seat. In the 1996 election, he successfully contested the Waipareira seat, and in the 1999 election, he contested the Waitakere seat once again. From age 38, he had lived in a house in West Harbour and he always stood in the electorate that his house was located in.

In the 2002 election, he sought the National Party nomination for the new seat of Helensville, which had absorbed most of the Waitakere electorate. However, he was controversially defeated for selection by John Key, a new candidate. Neeson considered his non-selection to be a betrayal, believing that National Party president Michelle Boag had deliberately engineered his defeat in order to further her "rejuvenation" of the party. Neeson quit the National Party and stood as an independent, but placed third.

After parliament
In December 2009 Neeson was appointed to the Human Rights Review Tribunal. The appointment was criticised by the gay community and by Labour MP Grant Robertson due to Neeson's record of voting against gay rights while an MP.

In 2010 Neeson was elected to the Upper Harbour Local Board of the new Auckland Council, as well as the Waitakere Licensing Trust. He also ran for the Auckland Council, placing 10th in the Albany ward with 4,911 votes.

At the 2016 Auckland elections, Neeson was elected to the Upper Harbour Local Board and the Waitematā District Health Board.

title: Brian Neeson


text:
User talk:AllTom

Oh wow.

title: User talk:AllTom


text:
Talk:Spirit (band)

Woodstock
Spirit was one of my favorites in the late 60s. All that I've read seems to indicate that Ode Records felt that Woodstock would not be significant enough exposure and that a promotional tour for the "Clear" album would. Of course, only somewhat later did it sink in just how significant Woodstock was. I was 16 at the time and only remember just hearing about it. It did not seem a big thing to me, either. Only when the word started spreading afterwards and the movie was released in 1970 did people start to say, "Wow". --Phyllis1753 (talk) 16:55, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

"Record company managers felt that the festival would not be significant, which it did not seem so at that time." Could someone rephrase that in English? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.68.134.1 (talk) 20:14, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Stairway To Heaven
I have been told that the song "Stairway to Heaven" as performed and made famous by Led Zeppelin was in actual fact strongly plagiarised from one of the songs as written and performed by Spirit (please note the music and not the lyrics). Can anybody shed some light on this? Anybody with intimate knowledge on Spirit care to comment?

The song to which they're referring is entitled "Taurus". It was featured on Spirit's first, full-length album Spirit. As this album's publication preceded Led Zeppelin IV by a couple of years, there is no dispute over which ensemble first copyrighted a song on which the guitar riff common to both was featured. The two works are sufficiently dissimilar, however, to not warrant further controversy. The riffs in question, however, are nearly identical; and the contexts into which they fit are almost verbatim matches (both introducing the songs and running as themes throughout). Earthliberator 22:19, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Plus the fact that Led Zeppelin backed up Spirit for some time... I'm not sure, but I don't think Spirit has received any credit for that song, which has sold more than a million copies and which Spirit actually wrote the music for! I'll think I'll add something about this on the Stairway to Heaven article. –The Phoenix 16:17, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I played in SPIRIT for 3 tours and asked Randy about "Taurus". He said that "he and Jimmy Page spoke about it, Jimmy half-way apologized, and they shook hands",,,and "it was over", to quote Randy. Personally, I think they could at least give a co-writer credit to Randy. - [Dave Waterbury] ..

what else, i just feel so sad.....just another great musician left us. words are useless....remains the music. Thank you Mister Locke. signed: a Spirit admirator since ......pfff−

Tour Of '73
I met Spirit in 1973 when they toured in the UK and I'm sure the bassist was Larry Knight. Can anyone clarify his dates with the band?

BTW: At this time the band were carrying round an acetate of Potatoland which was supposedly for Epic release.

Delverie 11:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

 * You could try asking the Spirit group on Yahoo (http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/randycaliforniaandspirit/), I believe they have an accurate list. Fnorp 12:24, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Offensive and slanderous information.
Come on, dude. That's just stupid. It's gone. Jack Meihoffer 22:22, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

"1984"
Though this record was self-produced, first pressings of Ode single #ZS7 128 (of which I have both a promo and stock copy in my collection) credited Lou Adler as producer. I am inquiring as to where this factoid would fit in to the story of this number. –Wbwn 11:06, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Recent edit
I have added and  tags to the article, after having spent some time sub-editing. Despite the information contained therein, and the time that has obviously gone into putting it all together, I am at a loss to know how this article has a Wikipedia 'B' rating. Frankly, a lot of it is meandering POV, fancruft, bollocks.

Derek R Bullamore 00:12, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Major editing suggested
This page has plenty of information, but could use serious help. That would involve a lot of editing. jj137 18:01, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

 * I'm personally hoping to start working on revamping the album stubs for Spirit and Randy California in the near future (I did some work on the album stub for RC's "Kapt. Kopter" album yesterday). The major issue, however, will be finding verifiable sources for Spirit. Even though people have written about them, I don't know of a large amount of published materials on the group. Simply put, work on the related Spirit articles will take a lot of work in order to fully conform to NPOV. Kevinloy (talk) 15:16, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

There is no way Stairway to Heaven is plagiarism
I understand that the chord progression in Taurus sounds quite similar to that in Stairway to Heaven, but let's look at this with some reason and also from a musical standpoint. Anyone with musical education will tell you that the introductory chord progression in Stairway to Heaven is a chromatic bass progression. The bass of each chord moves down a half-step each time. Additionally, the style of the guitar is arpeggiated finger-picking. This progression and style are very commonly used in folk and classical music. Considering these points, why would it even matter that the two songs are similar? Frankly, out of the sheer fact, not opinion--you can argue with me on that all day--that Stairway to Heaven is a better song (for several reasons) I would say for sure that even if it was entirely stolen from Spirit, it doesn't matter. It really does not matter at all. Plus, if it was plagiarized, doesn't anybody think that maybe, just maybe, any of the four members of Led Zeppelin at the time would have the dignity to admit that it was taken? There wasn't even a legal dispute: ever. So why would it be so hard to admit? I know why. It was not plagiarized.

 * Yeah, because Led Zeppelin has such a great track record when it comes to acknowledging that they ripped off other artists...or maybe you've forgotten about Willie Dixon's multiple lawsuits (amongst other writers) against them.

 * THAT aside, as somebody who DOES have a musical education, the rhythmic and tonal similarities are more than coincidental. In all fairness, Jimmy Page's writing would (if acknowledged) constitute a theme variation as opposed to flat-out thievery, as he does add a few melodic flourishes to his version and slightly alters the ending phrase of the riff in question. Acknowledgement is the issue, however.

 * And the question is not, nor should it ever be, whether one piece of music is 'better' than the other. That's perhaps the most asinine defense that I've ever encountered (sort of like when I talked to somebody who claimed that, while Led Zeppelin might have ripped off a bunch of obscure blues artists, they were still taking the blues and "making it better").

 * It should be considered, of course, that there are only so many musical possibilities that can naturally occur within the formalized framework of western tonal principles, especially when dealing with straight 4/4 rhythmic patterns. There's likely to be more than one piece of music that resembles 'Taurus' in some manner or another, and for all we know, there could be a piece of music that predates 'Taurus' which also resembles it. But when considering the historical circumstances -- Led Zeppelin toured with Spirit in the late 60s, and Jimmy Page's acknowledgement that he had the idea of utilizing a theremin after seeing Randy California use one -- makes it clear that, even if Jimmy Page didn't literally intend to 'steal', he was very much aware of Spirit's work.

 * All of this having been stated, however...you are correct in stating that it doesn't matter. Why? Because people don't care about facts and accuracy.

 * And in the future, please sign your posts. Kevinloy (talk) 15:17, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Revamp
It's clear this page needs work. It's a shame that some comments are unattributed, so I can't contact for information. This is strange since Sinebot usually adds signatures, even for anon IP addresses. However, to make a musical judgement about the Taurus/Stairway controversy, I need to hear Taurus, and since the only Spirit album I actually possess is "Twelve Dreams", and I cannot see Taurus on iMesh or LimeWire, I'd be glad if someone could point me to a source. If you can rip & post to alt.binaries.sounds.mp3.1960s, FAO Ivan, or upload to Rapidshare.com and give URL here, that would help. My own POV is that Spirit are an important enough band to be treated with respect, and that is why I'm prepared to take some time to get things right & sort this article out. Thanks --Rodhullandemu 01:10, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Spiritfirstalbum.jpg
Image:Spiritfirstalbum.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

Mitch Mitchell on Kaptain Kopter
I have corrected the sentence that says that Mitch played on Kaptain Kopter. It wasn't him, it was Leslie Sampson from Noels band Road. I have gotten this info from two people, one person who knew Randy California and one person who used to play with Leslie Sampson.--83.227.153.180 (talk) 05:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

BetacommandBot (talk) 05:35, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Good article
I would just like to say I find the article well put together, comprehensive, and entertaining. Good job, all. Wwwhatsup (talk) 05:43, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Ed Cassidy
Over at the Ed Cassidy article, I've reverted this edit, apparently made in good faith, but completely unsourced. Does anyone has any firm evidence either that he has died, or that he is still alive? Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:57, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

The "Potatoland" album and Ed Cassidy
Although not exactly popular in the U.K. there used to be quite a lot of coverage of the band in the British Rock press at the time (the early 1970's) in the form of "The New Musical Express" (NME), "Sounds" and "Melody Maker". There was always a lot of mention about Ed Cassidy being the ALLEGED father or step-father of Randy California, but despite constant rumours, any familial relationship between the two was always denied by Messers California and Cassidy. I also have different recollections of the "Potatoland" album. As I remember it, the album was called "(A) Journey through Potatoland", aand it was recorded sometime in 1973. However, it was never released, and the Rock press asked why, as THEY had heard that it was full of innovative material. It turned out that the master fader in the studio was set to almost zero. Apparently, the band (or record label) held onto this master until the technology required to extract the music and play it at an acceptable level had been invented! When it was eventually released, interest had completely waned!

Taff Hewitt (talk) 22:27, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Do we need a disambiguation tag?
Since "Spirit" could obviously mean several other things, does this article need a disambiguation tag? ACEOREVIVED (talk) 09:18, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Could someone fix this "sentence"
Currently in the second paragraph of the 1960s section is this tortured sentence: "They also went on tour that year with support band Led Zeppelin, who were heavily influenced by Spirit—Led Zeppelin played an extended medley during their early 1969 shows that featured "Fresh Garbage" among other songs; Jimmy Page's use of a theremin has been attributed to his seeing Randy California use one that he had mounted to his amplifier; and Guitar World Magazine stated "(Randy) California's most enduring legacy may well be the fingerpicked acoustic theme of the song 'Taurus', which Jimmy Page lifted virtually note for note for the introduction to 'Stairway to Heaven'."" I assume there is supposed to be a period between "Spirit-Led Zeppelin" but the rest of it is anybody's guess. __209.179.6.200 (talk) 03:49, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I've replaced the dash with a period (full stop). The remainder makes sense as it is.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:31, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Need verification before using April 1997 Guitar World reference
Copied from my user page: "Hi, I'm new to Wikipedia, so I don't know how or where to report this but saw your name on the article Talk page. There is a bogus note in the "Stairway to Heaven" article, which has also been recycled in other articles. In the reference section, Note 21, there is a statement attributed to Guitar World which claims:

Guitar World Magazine, April 1997: "California's most enduring legacy may well be the fingerpicked acoustic theme of the song "Taurus," which Jimmy Page lifted virtually note for note for the introduction to "Stairway to Heaven."

The note makes no reference to page number or author of the source. A few weeks ago I purchased the April 1997 edition of Guitar World (with Aerosmith on the cover), and cannot find that statement anywhere in that issue. I suspect it is a bogus claim. I recently contacted Guitar World magazine and they haven't been able to locate the quote. TipOffTim (talk) 08:26, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

 * Thanks for thinking of me when you were wondering about this stuff. I treat a whiff of a hoax like a new chew toy!
 * I looked through the editing history of the Wikipedia articles about Stairway to Heaven, Taurus (instrumental), Spirit (Spirit album), Spirit (band) and Randy California. What I found was that, across all the related articles, the first editor to bring in the Guitar World reference was who first started editing Wikipedia in 2006 but has only made two edits in 2015. He mostly writes about video engineering topics; hardly anything about rock bands or music. Regarding "Stairway to Heaven", in January 2007 Mark Rizo added the words "almost exactly the same, note for note", based on the Guitar World magazine reference he introduced. He provided a quote from the magazine: "California's most enduring legacy may well be the fingerpicked acoustic theme of the song 'Taurus,' which Jimmy Page lifted virtually note for note for the introduction to 'Stairway to Heaven.'"
 * I can believe your story about buying a back issue of Guitar World from April 1997 and not finding the quote. The cover of the magazine doesn't say anything about Spirit or Led Zeppelin or Randy California or Jimmy Page. A website with back issues for sale mentions some of the contents and again there's nothing. However, in an online discussion group named Smirkenchicken, a guy named shoepolish appears to have quoted the magazine in a May 2005 post. I have taken bits and pieces of shoepolish's quote such as "Spirit were unreconstructed eclectics" and searched the web for any supporting echoes, but there's nothing like that quote anywhere else online.
 * So it appears that Mark Rizo found the quote somewhere online in 2007, maybe from shoepolish's post, and added it to Wikipedia. I hope to hear from Mark Rizo to see what he says about the quote. At this point, though, enough doubt is cast on the reference to remove it from all of Wikipedia. Binksternet (talk) 14:43, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you Bink. TipOffTim (talk) 12:52, 16 July 2015 (UTC)"

So because of this conversation, there needs to be strong verification of the text which was said to be found in the April 1997 issue of Guitar World, or else we should not re-insert the disputed reference. Binksternet (talk) 15:29, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

 * This is not a 'conversation'. This is a claim by a user with no previous edits to have purchased the magazine and not found the article is hardly convincing. Futhermore, there are other methods of questioning sources that don't involve outright deleteion.  Now, you've found another source, which is fine, but inexplicably you've decided to subjectively paraphrase the source instead of accurately reproducing the material.  I suggest editing the text to more accurately reproduce it's contents.  I'd do it myself, but there's that whole 'edit warring' thing.  AnnRule (talk) 15:35, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

 * Check your magazine again. It's on page 19, right hand column, second paragraph. You can't miss it. Piriczki (talk) 15:39, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

 * So now two editors claimed to have seen the magazine, one confirming the contents and one who can't find it. One is a new user, or more accurately a self proclaimed new user, who hasn't posted since, and  and another one is a long time contributor with thousands of edits.  Guess which one I believe? Of course, it is possible that either editor is mistaken, or that the editor who can't find it simply overlooked it. Perhaps he or she would like another view.

 * With this new verification, it would now seem that the removed material can be reinserted. However, I will wait a reasonable time for the other editors who question the citationto offer their opinions, or maybe even examine the article itself.   After all, I wouldn't like to be accused of edit-warring.  ;-)

 * The alert reader may have noticed that I described TipOffTim as a 'self proclaimed' new user. That phrase was selected deliberately.  AnnRule (talk) 17:22, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * If you get much deeper into saying TipOffTim has a conflict of interest then it will serve to reveal yours. There are millions of dollars at stake here, with regard to the lawsuit outcome, and I don't assume any new editor is lily white if they are interested only in this issue, as is the case with you. Binksternet (talk) 00:41, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * "Conflict of interest"? A rather simplistic interpretation of my comment, although that's hardly surprising.
 * Now, do you want to discuss the validity of the source? Another user has confirmed the text, and given an specific description of where it can be found. You'll notice that in Tim's comment to you, he erroneously claims there is "no reference to a page number".  Review the citation, it includes "19" which is the page on which the text can be found.  AnnRule (talk) 02:19, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

 * Personally, I'm happy to assume good faith in relation to 's comment that he/she has located the original quote. An additional source is in this book, page 86: "The acoustic arpeggio chord pattern played throughout "Taurus" is almost exactly what Page played on "Stairway to Heaven.""  Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:18, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd also take the word of a confirmed user giving a specific page number and column as opposed to just some guy saying he couldn't find it. There should be more burden now to prove a negative, which is significantly harder to do.  Until further notice, like another known entity with that magazine in hand saying, in effect that the confirmed user is a liar, we should accept their statement.  By the way, we are accepting this expert opinion to back up what most reasonable, though possibly non-expert, persons would get from their WP:OR. Trackinfo (talk) 09:21, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Quote added to "1984" and the Sardonicus era
The quote by Robert Christgau added on 2019-03-13 seems like esoteric BS mumbo jumbo to me, just someone's pretentious opinion. It doesn't really add anything factual or useful to the article and I suggest removing it. —hulmem (talk) 02:34, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Spirit (band)


text: Category:1579 deaths

title: Category:1579 deaths


text:
Japanning

Japanning is a type of finish that originated as a European imitation of East Asian lacquerwork. It was first used on furniture, but was later much used on small items in metal. The word originated in the 17th century. American work, with the exception of the carriage and early automobile industries, is more often called toleware.

It is distinct from true East Asian lacquer, which is made by coating objects with a preparation based on the dried sap of the Toxicodendron vernicifluum tree, which was not available in Europe.

Japanning is most often a heavy black "lacquer", almost like enamel paint. Black is common and japanning is often assumed to be synonymous with black japanning. The European technique uses varnishes that have a resin base, similar to shellac, applied in heat-dried layers which are then polished, to give a smooth glossy finish. It can also come in reds, greens and blues.

Originating in India, China and Japan as a decorative coating for pottery, authentic East Asian lacquered ware made its way into Europe by the 17th century. In the late 17th century, high European demand (along with rumors that East Asian manufacturers reserved their higher-quality work for their domestic markets) led to the production of imitation pieces starting in Italy. Its traditional form used gold designs and pictorials to contrast with the black base colour.

Development in Europe
As the demand for all things japanned grew, the Italian technique for imitating Asian lacquerwork also spread. The art of japanning developed in seventeenth-century Britain, France, Italy, and the Low Countries. The technique was described in design and pattern manuals such as Stalker and Parker's Treatise of Japanning and Varnishing, published in Oxford in 1688. Colonial Boston was a major center of the japanning trade in America, where at least a dozen cabinetmakers included it among their specialties. In England, decoupage, the art of applying paper cutouts to other items, became very popular, especially the botanically inspired works of Mary Delany.

A large amount of early amateur japanning can be attributed to the rise of the artform as a suitable pastime for young ladies between the late 17th and 18th century. Molly Verney is noted as one of these early adopters of the craft which was subsequently taught in London, but a number of pattern books such as ''Art's Master-piece. OR, A Companion for the Ingenious of either Sex (1697), The Art of Japanning: Varnishing, Pollishing, and Gilding ... Published at the Request of Several Ladies of Distinction by Mrs. Artlove (1730), The Lady's Delight, or Accomplished Female Instructor (1741), Study and Practise the Noble and Commendable Art of Drawing, Colouring and Japanning ... with Plain and Easy Rules for the Ladies Japanning (1751), The Ladies Amusement or, Whole Art of Japanning Made Easy (1758, 1762 & 1771), & The Young Ladies School of Arts'' by Hannah Robertson (1766) were all aimed at a female audience, and some of which were also written by female authors. Certainly by 1710, "japanning" was regarded by many including Alexander Pope as a feminine pastime. These mock lacquerware techniques were often suggested to be applied to textiles, and by the 18th century are found on cabinets, tea-trays, powderboxes, drawers, and large flat English household furniture in the manors and houses of the landed gentry.

Drawing on the grotesque forms derived from travellers accounts and artwork from the Indies these conflated forms went so far from the source material, they can said to be an early form of Japonaiserie in the UK. Popular motifs included landscapes containing 'woods, cottages, rivers, trees, hills, sun, moon [&] stars'. Other popular adopters included the wife of Robert Walpole, Lady Catherine Walpole in 1732. One of her 'japanned cabinets' was bought and displayed in the Blue bedroom by Horace Walpole in his Strawberry Hill House. The popularity of japanning continued to be seen as a womanly pursuit until 1760, by which point it began to become a commercial trade in the UK. Today, japanning exists primarily as a conservation craft – it so extremely rare to make it for new items so it is taught from a conservation/restoration approach for example as part of the City & Guilds three-year Conservation course and Painter Stainers Decorative Surface Fellowship.

Wolverhampton and Bilston
Wolverhampton and Bilston were important centres for the manufacture of japanned ware. Trade directories for 1818 list 20 firms of japanners in Wolverhampton and 15 in Bilston. According to Samuel Timmins' book Birmingham and the Midland Hardware District, published in 1866, there were 2000 people employed in the japanning and tin-plate industries in Wolverhampton and Bilston at the time. Japanning firms ranged in size from small family workshops, which often adjoined the proprietor's home, to a few large factories employing over 250 people. In the larger workshops, the production of tin plate and papier-mâché articles and the japanning process all took place under one roof, while small workshops tended to carry out only one or two of the trades, usually tin-plate working and japanning.

At the height of its popularity, richly decorated japanned ware was to be seen in every middle-class home, but from the mid-19th century, this began to change. By the 1880s, the japanning and tin-plate industries were in decline. This was due partly to changes in fashion and taste and partly due to the development of electroplating. In response, makers of japanned ware began to focus on more utilitarian items, including japanned cash boxes. Many turned to other trades, including enamelling, electroplating and the manufacture of copper and brass coal scuttles, fire screens and kettles. By the 1920s, the West Midlands' decorative japanned ware industry had largely died out. Many firms began to supply japanned metal to the newly established bicycle and motor vehicle industries, and some even made their own bicycles. The most successful of these was John Marston, whose japanning factory began making bicycles in 1887. The bicycle manufacturing part of the business quickly became more successful than the production of decorative japanned ware. Marston's wife thought the gilt on the black japanned bicycles looked like sunbeams and the bicycles were branded Sunbeam and their factory was named Sunbeamland.

Japanned metal
Ironware was japanned black, for decorative reasons. It was also used to render it rustproof, suitable for carrying water. A significant industry developed at Pontypool and Usk in South Wales, UK, shortly before tinplate began to be made in the area. Japanned ware was being also made at Bilston in Wolverhampton, England by 1719 and later elsewhere in the area.

Applications
The technique was also developed to protect metal objects such as sewing machines, hand planes, builders' hardware, and in North America, electricity meters made before the mid-1930s. Later, it was used as an insulating film on transformer laminations. It was also used as the substrate for the tintype photographic process.

title: Japanning


text:
User:Thüringer

de:Benutzer:Thüringer fr:Utilisateur:Thüringer ru:Участник:Thüringer ja:利用者:Thüringer

title: User:Thüringer


text:
Saint Irene

Saint Irene may refer to:
 * Irene of Thessalonica, one of three virgin sisters killed in 304, feast day April 3
 * Irene of Rome (died c. 288), wife of martyr Saint Castulus, feast day January 22
 * Irene of Tomar (died c. 653), of Portugal, feast day October 20
 * (died in 2nd century or 315), considered great-martyr with feast day May 5 (Eastern Orthodox liturgics) in Eastern Orthodox churches
 * Irene of Cappadocia, abbess, feast day July 28 (Eastern Orthodox liturgics) in Eastern Orthodox churches
 * Irene of Hungary, empress (died 1134), feast day August 13 in Eastern Orthodox churches
 * Hagia Irene church in Istanbul is often called "St Irene", although it is actually named after the "Holy (Divine) Peace"

title: Saint Irene


text:
User talk:NewAccount

Don't edit other users' comments. RickK 05:58, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:NewAccount


text:
Talk:Waking Hour (album)

The original page was just copy-pasted from Vienna's website, and while I'm pretty sure Vienna's not a very litigatious person, it would at least be nicer to have original text here. -Ergative 05:58, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

title: Talk:Waking Hour (album)


text: User talk:202.84.222.180

title: User talk:202.84.222.180


text:
Lake Poteriteri

Lake Poteriteri is the southernmost of the large lakes in Fiordland National Park in New Zealand's South Island. Only Lakes Hakapoua and Innes lie further south on the southern of New Zealand's two main islands. It is located 40 km to the west of the town of Tuatapere.

Lying in a steep-sided mountain valley, Poteriteri runs roughly north–south for a distance of 28 km with an average width of under 2 km. It covers an area of 43 sqkm. The outflow of Poteriteri is the Waitutu River, a short 8 km river which flows into the western end of Foveaux Strait.

The naming of the lake is unclear. The Māori word may mean 'to drift forwards and backwards', with another theory that the spelling of the lake should be Poutiritiri, which would translate as a 'post on which offerings are hung'. A third theory is that the spelling should be Poeteretere, in which case it would mean 'dripping wet'.

Access to the lake is via helicopter, a rough deer trail from Slaughter Burn or Harry's Track, a marked route from the outlet of Lake Hauroko.

title: Lake Poteriteri


text: User talk:67.161.104.27

title: User talk:67.161.104.27


text:
Pierre Even (composer)

Pierre Even (born 4 December 1946 in Wiesbaden) is a Luxembourgish composer.

He is a descendant of the Even family from Beaufort, Luxembourg and Metz (France). He studied piano and composition in Wiesbaden with Karl-Wilhelm Brühl from 1959 to 1965, and religious music in Mainz with Diethard Hellmann from 1969 to 1973.

Since 1966 performances of orchestra music, chamber music and religious music, among others: Tango para los oídos (2005), Dithyrambus for Strings (1966), Concertino for viola and string orchestra, Op.11 (1970, 2004), Trio for Flute, Clarinet and Bassoon (2001), Neuf caractères pour violon et piano (2004), Sonata for Cello and Piano (2004), different works for organ (since 1966) and for choir (since 1971), two cantatas (1971/1972), Pastorale for four Trombones (2002).

title: Pierre Even (composer)