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Seven and the Ragged Tiger

Seven and the Ragged Tiger is the third studio album by the English rock band Duran Duran, released on 21 November 1983 through EMI and Capitol Records. Co-produced by Alex Sadkin, Ian Little and the band, recording sessions took place in France, the Caribbean and Australia between April and October 1983 following Duran Duran's decision to record outside the UK as tax exiles. Unlike their previous two studio albums, the sessions were marred by a lack of productivity and tensions rose between the band members over its direction.

Wanting a change in direction from their previous album Rio, Seven and the Ragged Tiger is a synth-pop and dance-driven record, with emphasis on synthesiser-based textures. The lyrics are ambiguous and cover a variety of topics; lead vocalist Simon Le Bon described the album as "an adventure story about a little commando team". The title refers to the five band members and their two managers; the "ragged tiger" means success. The cover artwork was shot at the State Library of New South Wales and designed by Malcolm Garrett.

The album received poor critical reviews but was a commercial success, becoming the band's first and only UK number one album. It also charted at number eight in the US, eventually going double platinum. It yielded three singles: "Union of the Snake", "New Moon on Monday" and a remix of "The Reflex" by Nile Rodgers, a UK and US number one. Duran Duran supported the album with a worldwide concert tour that yielded several concert films and a live album. It was the last studio album with the original lineup until 2004's Astronaut. In later decades, Seven and the Ragged Tiger has received mixed reactions, with critics finding weaker songwriting compared to their first two records. It was reissued by EMI in 2010.

Background
By 1983, Duran Duran had established themselves as one of the most successful bands in the world. They were negatively received by the press and their musical peers but enjoyed commercial success following the release of Rio (1982): the non-album single "Is There Something I Should Know?" spent three weeks at number one in the United Kingdom in March 1983. Capitol Records also reissued the band's 1981 self-titled debut album in the United States with an updated sleeve photo and replacing "To the Shore" with the new single to capitalise on its success. Duran Duran underwent an exhaustive press tour and live performances for Rio from March to April before recording commenced on their third studio album.

French sessions
At the decision of their managers, Paul and Michael Berrow, Duran Duran opted to spend a year away from the UK as tax exiles to avoid paying the high tax rates successful British musicians were required to pay. To record their third studio album, the band moved into a three-story château in Valbonne, France on the Côte d'Azur in April 1983, utilising the 24-track RAK Mobile recording truck rented from RAK Studios in North London. According to author Stephen Davis, the idea was for work to ensue amidst the lavender-scented hills above the city. This attracted tabloid criticism. In an interview with The Times in 1995, bassist John Taylor stated:

"We were recording in the south of France and pretending we were the Rolling Stones when we were only making our third record. We'd just barely moved out of our parents' homes. We didn't know anything about tax years but our managers did and that's why we were there. And that really began a negative roll of publicity."

Duran Duran escaped some of the large media hype surrounding them, which their photographer Denis O'Regan attributed to the château's relaxed atmosphere. The band had ended their partnership with Colin Thurston, the producer of their first two albums, so Ian Little, the co-producer of "Is There Something I Should Know?", was brought in to produce the sessions. At the château, the instruments were set up in a large empty room upstairs and wired to the recording equipment outside, forcing the musicians to travel back and forth in between takes to verify it was taping properly. The group worked on demos and ideas for three months. Like their previous albums, the rhythm tracks were recorded first, with lyrics written and taped at a later date.

The sessions commenced slowly due to a lack of new material; John said that all their material had been used up for the first two albums. The musicians were burned out, so creativity was low. Little later verified that "nothing had been written in advance, so the biggest starting point they'd ever have would be another song". Workdays did not start until 4 p.m. due to the antics of the band members, particularly John, and only lasted a couple of hours. The musicians briefly went to Cannes to visit the music video set of Elton John's "I'm Still Standing", directed by Duran Duran's own video director Russell Mulcahy. On several occasions, the band members individually flew back to the UK for other commitments. Reflecting in his 2008 memoir, guitarist Andy Taylor stated that "it was the start of the megadamage" due to the acceleration of his and John's cocaine addictions.

Throughout the recording days, Duran Duran primarily wrote through jam sessions, receiving feedback from Little on which parts were worth developing further. The producer gave the band a songwriting method he had learned working with Roxy Music's Bryan Ferry and Phil Manzanera, wherein he would create a groove using a programmed drum with effects on top. Little explained: "Bryan would then vamp on the keyboard and produce what he called a 'moody synth' sound, which was like a pad sound with plenty of movement and character. That would enable him to get a lot of feeling out of a couple of chords, and Duran Duran did the same thing." Using the method, the group yielded what author Steve Malins called several "embryonic ideas", a demo of "Union of the Snake" and an unreleased track titled "Seven and the Ragged Tiger", parts of which evolved into "The Seventh Stranger". According to John, sketches of the tracks "Of Crime and Passion", "(I'm Looking For) Cracks in the Pavement", "I Take the Dice" and "Spidermouse", which became "New Moon on Monday", were devised during their time in France.

Caribbean sessions
As a means to increase concentration amid tabloid scrutiny and paparazzi bombardment, Duran Duran relocated to George Martin's AIR Studios on the Caribbean island of Montserrat to resume recording. In his memoir, John says the group viewed a BBC documentary chronicling the recording of the Police's Synchronicity (1983) at AIR and felt it would be a good fit for Duran Duran. EMI believed Little's inexperience as a producer was slowing down progress and brought in Alex Sadkin to replace Little. Sadkin, the mixer of "Is There Something I Should Know?", felt Little was important to the band's writing process and insisted he stay. Little later said he contributed several ideas despite not receiving any writing credits on the finished album.

Duran Duran spent five to six weeks recording in Montserrat, engineered by Peter Wade-Schwier. Tracks produced at AIR included "The Reflex" and "Union of the Snake" by mid-June 1983, as well as the chorus of "New Moon on Monday". Chic backing vocalists Michelle Cobbs and B. J. Nelson were flown in from New York City to provide backing vocals for "The Reflex". The group encountered both personal and technical problems at AIR, such as tape machines that failed to run at the correct speeds; the production crew were passed off as "whiny and unprofessional" when they complained to the local studio engineers. The band's massive success led to rising tensions between the members. Additionally, keyboardist Nick Rhodes collapsed one day and had to be airlifted to a hospital in Miami, Florida after suffering from paroxysmal tachycardia, or an abnormally fast heartbeat. With a deadline of a Christmas release, Andy remembered the band members being worried that the album would not be delivered on time.

On 20 July 1983, Duran Duran briefly halted the sessions to play at the Prince's Trust concert with Dire Straits at the Dominion Theatre in London, with Prince Charles and Princess Diana in attendance. Having not performed live in several months, Duran Duran were under-rehearsed, leading to a poor performance amidst technical problems, but spoke briefly with the royal couple afterwards. A photograph taken of Diana with singer Simon Le Bon, John and Andy made headlines the following day. Three days later, the band played a charity concert at Aston Villa's football stadium, Villa Park, in Birmingham before returning to Montserrat.

Upon their return to Montserrat, Steve Sutherland of Melody Maker visited the sessions to check on progress. According to Malins, the band played him eight new songs "in various states of disarray". Sutherland predicted "Union of the Snake" would be the first single, while opining that "['The Reflex'] is sharper and more brutal than anything they've recorded before". The writer was informed by Sadkin that the album was far from completion amidst the studio's technical problems. Sadkin had a hard time producing the record overall and later said he was surprised at how little material the band had.

Australian sessions
With tensions rising in Montserrat, Duran Duran changed recording locations again, settling in Sydney, Australia at the end of August 1983 as they felt their relationship with the country was special following their previous tours and commercial success there. Throughout September, the band recorded and mixed the rest of the album, now called Seven and the Ragged Tiger, at Studios 301. The studio was reportedly inferior to AIR, but superior to the mobile studio in France; the producers found technical problems could be resolved more easily. Phil Thornalley, Sadkin's personal engineer, assumed the role for these sessions.

With the majority of the rhythm tracks cut, the band used 301 to record lyrics, synthesiser and guitar overdubs, and Andy Hamilton's saxophone parts. Le Bon, suffering from writer's block, composed melody lines after listening back to the rhythm parts and wrote lyrics based on those later. Little felt that he was the "least involved" and the "least active" of the five members. Rhodes used a new Fairlight CMI digital sampling synthesiser to help change the band's sound, as he wanted Seven to be a more "sophisticated pop album full of minutiae and multiple textures".

Other members also experimented during the sessions: John utilised a different technique for his bass playing, playing fewer notes as a way to "get more feel" out of the instrument; drummer Roger Taylor worked with Sadkin to create a more natural sound compared to the "machine-like, rigid beats" of the first two albums; and Andy used a more melodic style of playing compared to his, in Malins' words, "usual cut-and-thrust". Rafael de Jesus and Mark Kennedy contributed percussion, which Malins felt created a "more exciting, dynamic foundation for the songs". The tracks went through different versions regularly. At this point, the members grew tired of the album's long recording process and tensions rose over its direction. Andy later described its recording as a "laborious plod", while Rhodes said:

"I thought the thing was never going to get finished. Everybody was pulling and tugging in different directions. To me, that album, more than any of them, on the surface of it, there's a lot of pretty songs on there, but then underneath there's this sort of not quite controllable hysteria."

Sadkin and Rhodes discarded several of the rhythm tracks during mixing and received pushback from John and Andy over rerecording their parts. Reflecting in his memoir, John acknowledged the period as the beginning of a split in the band that only grew worse over the next year. Alongside growing tensions in the studio, the players were forced to relocate from their hotels due to bombardment from fans. Rhodes and Sadkin ultimately worked 15-hour days with Little to mix Seven and the Ragged Tiger, extending into October 1983. By the time the first single, "Union of the Snake", was being mixed, Rhodes and Sadkin only had 24 hours to write and record its B-side, "Secret Oktober", which Malins describes as a "moody electronic-carousel".

Music and lyrics
Commentators have recognised Seven and the Ragged Tiger as a departure from Duran Duran's previous albums. Richard Buskin of Sound on Sound observed more of a "synth-dance sound", while author Annie Zaleski wrote that Seven is "indebted less to guitar-driven post-punk and more the sleeker synth-pop sounds popular at the time". Writing for AllMusic, Mike DeGagne found that the album's content has the band "moving ever so slightly into a danceclub arena", with "their ability to produce a sexier sound" favouring electronics and instrumentation over "a firm lyrical and musical partnership". Malins agrees, referring to Seven as a "very detailed, technology-based record".

AllMusic's Stewart Mason described the opening track, "The Reflex", as sounding like "an underwritten exercise in art-funk", drawing comparisons to Rio "Hold Back the Rain". "New Moon on Monday" and "Union of the Snake" showcase the band's influences: the former echoes Roxy Music, while the latter was based on the bass drum pattern for David Bowie's "Let's Dance" (1983). Malins finds the up-tempo tracks "Of Crime and Passion" and "Shadows on Your Side" evoke feelings of insomnia and hysteria. Davis describes "(I'm Looking For) Cracks in the Pavement" as sounding like an homage to the Police with a "carnival vibe". Seven also features an atmospheric, electronic-based instrumental called "Tiger Tiger", dubbed by Davis a "pastoral drone, evoking a jungle painted by Rousseau with hidden tribes playing rattles and sticks". The final track, "The Seventh Stranger", Malins and Davis deem a "moody finale" and a "tepid ballad", respectively.

Le Bon described Seven as "an adventure story about a little commando team". The album's lyrics are ambiguous and cover a variety of topics, including the dark side of fame the band were experiencing ("Shadows on Your Side"), living based on instinct ("The Reflex"), being pulled by an undertow ("Of Crime and Passion") and changing identities as a means of escape ("The Seventh Stranger"). According to Malins, most of the tracks, particularly "Union of the Snake", "I Take the Dice", "Shadows on Your Side" and "(I'm Looking For) Cracks in the Pavement", portray a character in a "manic, slightly deranged state". In "Union of the Snake", the words visualise a dreamlike revolution led by music, and "New Moon on Monday" presents a character's attempt to flatter a shy potential lover. Davis says the lyrics took influence from Le Bon's relationship uncertainties and "romantic ambivalences" with his then-girlfriend.

Title and packaging
The album's title was devised by Le Bon and taken from the unreleased track of the same name. The "seven" refers to the five band members and their two managers, while the "ragged tiger" is success: "Seven people running after success. It's ambition. That's what it's about." Rhodes disliked the title, stating in 1983: "It seems to me like the name of a kids' book, not so much the Famous Five, more sort of piratey." According to Malins, the keyboardist still refers to the LP simply as "the third album".

The album cover was shot at the State Library of New South Wales during a photoshoot with photographer Rebecca Blake. Sleeve designer Malcolm Garrett was flown in from the UK, as well as a live Bengal tiger from Melbourne to be pictured on both the album cover and upcoming tour programme. Surrounded by crew members, local journalists, TV cameramen and fans, Duran Duran were dressed in all-black attire: Rhodes donned a "black lizard suit", John and Roger in "evening dress", while Le Bon and Andy wore suede and leather; John later quipped in his memoir that "we all looked like successful young men". The shoot reportedly cost upwards of £65,000.

According to Paul Berrow, the plan was to shoot a promo in Kashmir involving the tiger but Andy and Rhodes vetoed the idea. Another idea involving the use of smoke bombs was scrapped when the tiger was spooked by them. Garrett's final sleeve design solely features the tiger's eye and a small portion of its fur. Against the caramel-coloured artwork are various logos, including the band's new DD logo, a crescent moon, a triple-X glyph and a Chinese-style antique map depicting snowy mountains and rivers; Davis says this represents the trips Duran Duran ventured on during their upcoming tour. Malins finds the map suggests secrets that are waiting to be unfolded, offering a visual representation of Le Bon's "soul-searching on the album through [the] admittedly ambiguous lyrics".

Release and singles
The music video for "Union of the Snake", featuring the band members in a cave with serpent-like dancers and Le Bon as leather-wearing road warrior, was sent to MTV by Capitol a full week before the single was set to release to radio, drawing pushback from radio stations who found the move unfair. According to John, the band expressed distaste for the video. Upon its release as a single on 17 October 1983, "Union of the Snake" peaked at number three in both the UK and the US. Following the number one debut of "Is There Something I Should Know?", the group's failure to hit number one led some critics to conclude Duran Duran had hit their peak.

Seven and the Ragged Tiger was released a month later on 21 November 1983, shortly after the band commenced a worldwide tour. It entered the UK Albums Chart at number one, becoming the band's first album to top the chart, although sales fell off more quickly than EMI had expected. When it debuted on the US Billboard Top LPs & Tape chart, both Rio and the reissued Duran Duran were still high on the chart. It reached number eight and within months achieved platinum status with sales of one million units, eventually going double platinum. Elsewhere, Seven and the Ragged Tiger topped the chart in the Netherlands and reached number two in Australia, three in Finland, seven in Canada, 11 in Austria and New Zealand, 12 in Italy, 14 in Norway, 16 in Switzerland, 17 in Germany and 19 in Sweden.

"New Moon on Monday" was issued as the second single on 23 January 1984, backed by a remix of "Tiger Tiger". Its ambitious video, directed by Mulcahy's colleague Brian Grant, contained images of a medieval French town and was shot during a two-day shoot in Paris before the tour resumed in Japan. Hated by the band members, the video received heavy airplay on MTV. The single itself stalled at number nine in the UK and number ten in the US. With both singles performing below the label's expectations, EMI executives grew concerned that Sadkin lacked the skill to produce a successful single for Duran Duran.

While in Australia on tour, John heard a prerelease copy of the INXS single "Original Sin", produced by Chic member Nile Rodgers and engineered by Jason Corsaro, and felt a remix of "The Reflex" would perform well as a single. For the remix, Rodgers made the song more dance-oriented, adding looping vocals, additional percussion, increased the tempo and cut the runtime. John said it initially received pushback from EMI and Capitol; according to Andy, they felt it was "too black" for Duran Duran. Executives were eventually convinced and upon release as the third single on 16 April 1984, the remixed song became the band's first US and second UK number one single. Its success boosted sales for Seven and the Ragged Tiger five months after its release. The single's accompanying video was shot by Mulcahy over two days at the Maple Leaf Gardens in Toronto; John wanted the video to be taken from a live show as a way to showcase their strength as a live band and to dismiss interviewers who referred to Duran Duran solely as a "video band".

Critical reception
Reviews for Seven and the Ragged Tiger were predominantly negative upon its release. Critics cited poor lyrics and found the group utilised their musical influences in unoriginal ways. Record Mirror Jim Reid felt the record marked the first chapter in the band's decline, deeming the music "no more than a sub-art school mix of plagiarism" and the lyrics "chickenfeed mysteries that neither say or mean anything". Reid found the LP "bad as in pathetic, useless, no good" and a "painful [listening] experience" that showcases the group's "mediocre talent". Ira Robbins was also negative in Trouser Press, describing Seven as "a harmless, useless mishmash of old riffs and weak songs" that represents a step backward from Rio. He argued the band were "too talented to be satisfied with such a dismal showing". Sounds dubbed the record "Seven and the Rancid Ravings", arguing that it is "so assuredly awful it breaks new ground in badness", and concluding: "Seven is more redolent of illness – a nervous disorder of people near to cracking up – than it is of just being an amusingly dreadful recording." In NME, Paolo Hewitt argued that pop stars are only interested in themselves, with Duran Duran being "perhaps the most striking example", criticising the lyrics as "attempting to add drama and shade" to the material's "already weak structures".

Among positive reviews, Melody Maker Michael Oldfield found the album a bold move at this stage of the band's career, in which they solidify the 1980s dancefloor sound and simultaneously put an end to their "wimpish image". He also said that Seven "restores danger and menace to a band that was veering dangerously close to the insipid". Billboard acknowledged a refinement in the style exhibited on prior works that equated to a "well-crafted set" that "yields fresh bursts of their now familiar choral sound, more playful eroticism and plenty of dance-oriented rhythmic momentum for their club fans", giving particular recognition to the production. Peter Martin of Smash Hits wrote: "The arrangements are watertight, the melodies are razor-sharp and every number is drenched with the mystique of a James Bond theme. A classy concoction, it should ensure they'll be around for quite a while yet." In a more mixed review, Robert Christgau of The Village Voice stated that "as public figures and maybe as people, these imperialist wimps are the most deplorable pop stars of the post-punk if not post-Presley era," calling the lyrics "obtuse at best," and said "if you'd sooner listen to a machine sing than Simon Le Bon, what are you going to do with both?" However, he praised the album's singles as being "twice as pleasurable as anything Thomas Dolby is synthesizing these days".

Tour
To support Seven and the Ragged Tiger, Duran Duran embarked on a world tour that covered shows in Australia, Japan, England, the US and Canada. Dubbed the Sing Blue Silver Tour after a lyric in Rio "The Chauffeur", the tour was documented by a film crew, directed by Mulcahy. It commenced in Canberra, Australia in mid-November 1983 before returning to the UK for concerts in London in early December. A short seven-date leg of Japan occurred throughout mid-to-late January 1984. In Japan, Duran Duran played at larger venues than they were used to; audiences screamed so loud they could not hear themselves play. Throughout the tour, the ensemble displayed a harder and heavier sound compared to the supporting album. Roger stated: "The guitar is more upfront. We go for more power and everyone projects a lot. It's basically a rock show. We're not a synthesiser band."

The North American leg commenced at the end of January; according to Malins, the band members were on an "adrenaline-charged 'voyage of discovery. While on the road in February, the band won two Grammy Awards in the new Best Long Form and Best Short Form music video categories, and appeared on the cover of Rolling Stone magazine, who dubbed them the "Fab Five" in comparison to the Beatles.

The tour was massively successful, including through the selling of merchandise, but the non-stop touring schedule took a toll on the band members by the end of February. The cold weather and constant use of drugs and alcohol led to increased tensions and fights amongst the players. According to Malins, inflated egos led to rampant behavior, particularly from Andy. In March, Duran Duran continued playing in the northeastern US and Canada before playing two sold-out shows at Madison Square Garden, achieving a goal they had made when they signed to EMI in 1981.

The Sing Blue Silver Tour continued around the US, concluding in San Diego in mid-April. By the final dates, John was doing drugs on stage. Footage from the shows in Oakland, California were compiled for the concert film Arena (1985). A planned European leg was cancelled due to the band's exhaustion. It was the final tour of the 1980s with the original lineup. At its end, the band filmed more material for Arena using studio sets; the film was released in late 1984 along with a documentary about the tour, titled Sing Blue Silver; an edited one-hour cut of Arena, titled As the Lights Go Down, was broadcast on several US channels. Live recordings from across the tour and a new studio song, the Rodgers-produced "The Wild Boys", were compiled and released in late 1984 on a live album, also titled Arena.

Legacy
Seven and the Ragged Tiger was Duran Duran's final studio album with the original five-piece line-up until 2004's Astronaut. After recording "The Wild Boys", the band members mostly collaborated on different projects from 1984 to 1985: Andy and John formed the supergroup the Power Station with singer Robert Palmer and former Chic drummer Tony Thompson, while Le Bon, Rhodes and Roger recorded a studio album, So Red the Rose (1985), as Arcadia. Duran Duran briefly regrouped to record the title song of the James Bond film A View to a Kill (1985) before Andy and Roger departed the band shortly before the recording of their Rodgers-produced fourth studio album Notorious (1986).

In later decades, Seven and the Ragged Tiger continues to receive mixed reactions. In a retrospective review, DeGagne found Seven fails to match the "unrestrained pop/rock ebullience" of Rio with weaker songwriting, as well as favouring synthesisers over Andy's guitar stylings, but still displays strong singles and enough musicality to equal a "bright, energetic and effectual" record. Writing for The Daily Telegraph, Thomas H. Green described Seven as "opulently produced", with "their new romantic origins blooming into lush decadent pop". Chris Gerard found the album more uneven in Metro Weekly but argued Seven predicted the musical direction of both So Red the Rose and Notorious. Writing in 2009, Pitchfork Tom Ewing referred to Seven as a disappointment compared to Rio.

In his biography of the band, Malins contends that the album's primary flaw is a "lack of punch and power", and its "frenzied, chaotic bluster" lacks the effectiveness of Rio. In his book Please Please Tell Me Now, Davis opines that good lyrics were "hard-earned" as Le Bon's "beatnik muse" had vanished. In his memoir, John stated the whole band were not satisfied with the album musically. The bassist felt Seven was anticlimactic after Rio, writing: "Seven and the Ragged Tiger is a beautifully textured record, but it didn't hit you viscerally in the way the earlier albums had."

EMI re-released Seven and the Ragged Tiger in 2010 in two configurations: a two-disc digipak and a three-disc box set, featuring two CDs and one DVD, which included the first official release of the As the Lights Go Down video. Like the reissue of their debut released the same year, the remastering had a negative reaction from fans as a victim of the loudness war. Andy, who had left the band by that point, criticised the remaster, saying that it "sounds like it was done down the pub" and condemned EMI for promoting the demos as bonus tracks: "They should be gifting them to fans after 30 years of support...shame on all involved". EMI refused to recall the reissue because complaints about its sound quality were, according to the label, "by far in the minority".

Personnel
Credits adapted from AllMusic:

Duran Duran
 * Simon Le Bon – lead vocals
 * Andy Taylor – guitar
 * John Taylor – bass
 * Roger Taylor – drums
 * Nick Rhodes – keyboards

Additional musicians
 * Andy Hamilton – soprano and tenor saxophone
 * Rafael de Jesus – percussion
 * Mark Kennedy – percussion
 * Michelle Cobbs – backing vocals on "Union of the Snake" and "The Reflex"
 * B. J. Nelson – backing vocals on "Union of the Snake" and "The Reflex"

Production
 * Alex Sadkin – producer
 * Ian Little – associate producer
 * Duran Duran – associate producers
 * Phil Thornalley – recording and mixing engineer
 * Peter Wade-Schwier – recording engineer
 * Jim Taig – tape operator
 * Malcolm Garrett – graphic design
 * Keith Breeden – illustration

title: Seven and the Ragged Tiger


text:
User:Agoago

James W. Lee

lwy0417@gmail.com

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User:Agoago


text: Category:Premiers of Tasmania

title: Category:Premiers of Tasmania


text: File:Seven And The Ragged Tiger.jpg

title: File:Seven And The Ragged Tiger.jpg


text:
User:Carr

Out of the mouths of Demons!
A friend of mine who works in the field of deliverance passed along some great quotes from your friendly everyday sick, twisted and demented demon who wants to destroy all of mankind.

'''Demon George (hate) August 2006 lamenting the fact that he's a demon. George was obtained by the victim after having used what he thought was a game, a Ouija Board from childhood into his twenties.

Here are some of the best of quotes. Mind you, he was under Angelic pressure when he made these revealing comments.'''
 * "He said if we revolted we could never come back to Heaven. I didn't listen. I didn't listen."

 * "We can't go to Heaven. Never, we're in hell for eternity, for all time."

 * "Heaven... Heaven is nice. Hell is terrible. It's not fair. God forgives humans. He won't forgive us. It's not right. I hate you."

 * "Hope is good. I have no hope. I'm in hell."

 * "I was an angel of Heaven once. I made a mistake and followed satan, he lost. Things were more fun before Jesus came. We are afraid of Him. He will send us away."

 * "Jesus Christ is God and man. He beat satan when he died on the Cross. He conquered satan. It's true."

 * "Satan can't win. God is the Creator of all things."
 * "Scientology is the work of satan. Satan uses people to do his work."

 * ''"His father was a Freemason. They mock Christ. Freemasonry was started by satan."

 * "Herman's granfather Harris was also a Freemason. They mock Christ, they worship satan. Lucifer is satan. Lucifer is his name also."

 * "Demons can't see the future, but they can guess well. We have been around for a very long time and we can see patterns as to what will happen."

Some comments made reluctantly as well by George when he was used as a messenger for the injured party, by God.

 * "I hate you... God... He will provide... Trust in God. He loves you... God knows what will happen before it does, we don't (demons). God is all powerful. Jesus... He won... He won... He beat satan. Satan lost... Don't make me... Satan lost. He's in hell. He hates... I hate you. We'll kill you... We can't... I lied. I can't kill you. I want to... God loves you."

 * "Christ is Lord and Savior. He is God and man. The Catholic Church is the true Church. It was started by Jesus. Pray for communion... Pray that the churches will become one in the Catholic Church. I don't want to tell you this. God wants all his children to follow Christ. I hate you."

 * "Pray for peace and love among God's children."

 * "He loves you. Don't worry trust in the Lord God. Turn to Jesus for all things. The Holy Mother is very important. The Protestants are misguided about her and the Saints. I don't want to help you anymore... F**k you! S**t! F**k head! Pig!"

title: User:Carr


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/J. Fred Muggs

J. Fred Muggs
Not encyclopedic, not notable. We shouldn't open the door to every public-relations gimmick thought up to brand a corporate entity or propaganda concept into our minds. Some few very successful ones conceivably (Smokey the Bear, the Budweiser Clydesdales), but this one is no winner. — Bill 23:12, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Disagree. Keep. Pity there isn't enough information on there about the various chimps who have played him or how it came to start but it is a worthy subject for a short article. Dbiv 23:18, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. J. Fred Muggs is poorly described in this article, but was not just some public-relations gimmick; he was an extremely successful public relations gimmick on an epochal TV show. Fred was news wherever he went. Izvestia described him as "A symbol of the American way of life." Fred was more responsible for the success of the "Today Show" than Dave Garroway was. --jpgordon {gab} 23:25, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. I think this is just a question of the age of the reader. J. Fred Muggs was originally a live chimpanzee who appeared regularly on the Today Show in the days when it was hosted by (let's see whether this turns out to be a red link or not) Dave Garroway. A notable animal (or animals—Dbiv, you disillusion me) as such things go. I would bet that most who can remember Mickey Mouse Club can probably remember J. Fred Muggs. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 23:26, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Well, as a United Kingdom subject no more than being born in 1972 I have little experience of watching said chimp, but then I knew who it was straight away which tells me something about his fame. No information about other chimps which played him but many UK TV animals were replaced with lookalikes; he was certainly played by another chimp in the film 'Quiz Show'. Dbiv 23:35, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * You beat me to it. An interesting example of generational bias. About as notable as any other pop culture reference, just less recent than most. Keep. -- Jmabel|Talk 23:32, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
 * A single, inaccurate sentence does not an article make. I've made it into a redirect to "Today Show" which should do well until a real article comes along.  I've also left the deletion notice intact.  BTW, I read that ol' Fred was a nasty little critter.  I think I may have that same reference at home. - Lucky 6.9 23:39, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. I've rewritten it to tell the truth -- he was a chimp, not a cartoon, and he is no longer with us.  I'll add more later (probably tomorrow or this weekend) when I get more time to do some research.  RickK 00:00, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

 * Send to Clean Up, even with RickK's work. The figure is notable.  At one time, the chimp was the most popular figure on television, but I also think it's better to delete litter than to keep it around only to give users a mistaken impression of what we do here.  In this case, it's being repaired, and we ought to let Clean Up add more, if it can. Geogre 00:38, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Not the most respectable figure in an encyclopedic gallery, but certainly one well known to (yeek) yuppies. Denni ☯ 02:51, 2004 Oct 15 (UTC)
 * Yuppies my simian tush! J. Fred was targeted directly at the Baby Boomers. jpgordon {gab} 06:01, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * What he said. My goodness, what a simpler day it was when a live chimpanzee on TV was a big deal... Of course, it was live TV and perhaps that makes a difference. It is Garroway, not Muggs, who is my idol, though because I visited Rockefeller Center once when I was a kid, and we walked by the glassed-in set of the Today show, and I waved at Dave Garroway and he waved back at me. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 10:45, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Keep. J. Fred is worth an article. Perhaps not as many people can answer "J. Fred who?" as "J. Danforth who?", but I wouldn't lay big money on it. --NathanHawking 03:02, 2004 Oct 15 (UTC)

Couldn't have been wronger, could I? Withdraw delete. Though older than most, was not living in the States at the time! Keep. — Bill 12:02, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I believe this is supposed to be the reason why we have VfD. A good example of an article that definitely was appropriate for listing on VfD. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 19:05, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Keep, but I have to wonder if the guy was serious about Garroway drugging the orange juice. I suspect he might have been goofing on the reporter, and maybe we should delete that quotation. JamesMLane 21:40, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Good point. Continue discussion at Talk:J._Fred_Muggs [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 16:03, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * What, I should spend my time editing an article about a chimpanzee? You must be joking.  :)  JamesMLane 16:25, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * "A chimpanzee?" A chimpanzee? This is J. Fred Muggs we're talking about. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 17:45, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. I think the case for notability has been made by the previous comments here and I submit that this should be removed from vfd now. Gamaliel 06:02, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Such shabby treatment of an American TV legend! —tregoweth 05:40, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)
 * Comment Something that's gotten lost in this discussion... the original article said that Muggs is "a cartoon mascot for NBC's Today show." Not having watched Today in a long time and not being likely to... anyone know, is this correct or not? It's perfectly possible that there could be a cartoon version of J. Fred Muggs. Is there? [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 19:05, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC) Not in obvious evidence on the badly-designed-for-searching Today Show website. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 19:10, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep notable icon of 50s America, referenced in any book about US pop culture at the time as well as any book on the history of US TV.AndyL 23:32, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * KEEP - Don't you even dare consider deleting this. That would be like deleting the Howdy Doody or Andy Griffith entry.  Heck, it was a roll down Nostalgia Lane just to find out that J. Fred Muggs was still kicking it (and not far from my folks in Florida). ExplorerCDT 01:11, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Relax. Look at the version that was initially listed and you will see that the initial listing was perfectly understandable. Bill, who listed initially is already on record above with a keep vote himself. I believe Muggs' place in Wikipedia, as well as history, is fairly secure. Thanks for adding the photos BTW.[[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 14:43, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep DCEdwards1966 17:48, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep Radman1 14:48, 18 Oct 2004 (PST)


text: Category:Digital dictation

title: Category:Digital dictation


text:
Talk:Gerbillidae

For an October 2004 deletion debate over this page see Votes for deletion/Gerbillidae ---

Should this be Gerbillidae, or Gerbillinae, as the Muridae page seems to suggest?
 * Subfamily Gerbillinae in the family Muridae. Some older taxonomies consider it a cricetid, but molecular studies have shown that it's more closely related to true mice than to hamsters.  Gerbillidae as a family is occasionally seen in the paleontological literature. --Aranae 08:10, Dec 16, 2004 (UTC)

title: Talk:Gerbillidae


text:
Sign bit

In computer science, the sign bit is a bit in a signed number representation that indicates the sign of a number. Although only signed numeric data types have a sign bit, it is invariably located in the most significant bit position, so the term may be used interchangeably with "most significant bit" in some contexts.

Almost always, if the sign bit is 0, the number is non-negative (positive or zero). If the sign bit is 1 then the number is negative. Formats other than two's complement integers allow a signed zero: distinct "positive zero" and "negative zero" representations, the latter of which does not correspond to the mathematical concept of a negative number.

When using a complement representation, to convert a signed number to a wider format the additional bits must be filled with copies of the sign bit in order to preserve its numerical value, a process called sign extension or sign propagation.

Sign bit weight in Two's Complement
Two's Complement is by far the most common format for signed integers. In Two's Complement, the sign bit has the weight $-2^{w-1}$ where w is equal to the bits position in the number. With an 8-bit integer, the sign bit would have the value of $-2^{8-1}$, or -128. Due to this value being larger than all the other bits combined, having this bit set would ultimately make the number negative, thus changing the sign.

Sign bit weight in Ones' Complement
Ones' complement is similar to Two's Complement, but the sign bit has the weight $-(2^{w-1} +1)$ where w is equal to the bits position in the number. With an 8-bit integer, the sign bit would have a value of $-(2^{8-1} +1)$, or -127. This allows for two types of zero: positive and negative, which is not possible with Two's complement.

Sign bit in Sign Magnitude Integers
Using Sign Magnitude, the sign bit directly determines the sign. If the sign bit is 0, the number is positive; if the sign bit is 1, the number is negative. Similarly with Ones' Complement, this allows for both a positive and a negative zero.

Sign bit in Floating Point Numbers
Floating-point numbers, such as IEEE format, IBM format, VAX format, and even the format used by the Zuse Z1 and Z3 use a Sign and magnitude representation.

title: Sign bit


text:
Double Wide (album)

Double Wide is the debut studio album by American recording artist Uncle Kracker. It was released on May 30, 2000, via Lava/Atlantic Records. The recording sessions took place on the back of a tour bus parked in various motels and arena parking lots across the country. The production was mostly handled by Kid Rock with Michael Bradford. The music of the album is noted for its eclectic style, categorized by AllMusic as country, rock rap and rockabilly. Additionally, the album also incorporates elements of hip hop, rock and roll, blues rock and pop.

The album reached top 10 in Germany, Austria and the United States. It was certified platinum by Music Canada on August 13, 2001, and 2× Platinum by the Recording Industry Association of America on November 28, 2001. Regarding the album's success, Kracker stated in 2001 "It gives you that kind of 'I told you so' feeling, because I always knew the record was good."

Track listing
All songs co-written by Robert J. Ritchie and Matthew Shafer, unless noted.

 * 1) "Intro" – 1:19
 * 2) "Better Days" (Kenny Olson, James Trombly, Robert J. Ritchie, Matthew Shafer) – 4:50
 * 3) "What 'Chu Lookin' At?" – 5:12
 * 4) "Follow Me" (Michael Bradford, Shafer) – 3:35
 * 5) "Heaven" (featuring Paradime and Kid Rock) (Freddie Beauregard, William Maddox, David Moore, Ritchie, Shafer) – 4:19
 * 6) "Steaks 'n Shrimp" – 4:13
 * 7) "Who's Your Uncle?" (Beauregard, Ritchie, Shafer) – 3:56
 * 8) "Whiskey and Water" (Bradford, Ritchie, Shafer) – 4:43
 * 9) "Yeah, Yeah, Yeah" (Ritchie, Shafer, Trombly) – 4:59
 * 10) "Aces & 8's" (Martin Gross, Bradford, Shafer) – 3:53
 * 11) "You Can't Take Me" (Bradford, Shafer, Trombly) – 3:16

Personnel

 * Uncle Kracker – lead vocals, DJ
 * Kid Rock – guitar, scratching, drums, programming, background vocals, lead vocals on "Heaven"
 * Paradime – lead vocals on "Heaven"
 * James Montgomery – blues harmonica
 * Michael Bradford – bass guitar, guitar, programming, background vocals
 * James Bones – keyboards, background vocals
 * Stefanie Eulinberg – drums
 * Jason Krause – guitar
 * Kenny Olson – guitar
 * Lynn Owsley – pedal steel guitar

title: Double Wide (album)


text:
Category talk:Chinese martial arts

Untitled
Please use this page to discuss opinions regarding the categorization of Chinese martial arts.

Category:Chinese martial art styles didn't quite work out the way I thought it would so Category:Chinese martial arts is now used as listing of styles instead, and Category:Chinese martial art styles has been left to oblivion for the time being. I have instead made an experiment of creating a Category:Chinese martial arts terms as an evolvement of Category:Martial arts terms. Will be interesting to see how it works out.

- Wintran 11:08, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

As Chinese martial arts have many unique styles and weapons I really like the idea of having a separate Category:Chinese martial arts. So far I came up with two subcategories that I consider useful, namely Category:Chinese martial art styles and Category:Chinese weapons. The reason I made those two subcategories are because I know they will eventuelly cover a lot of articles, so we don't need to mess up Category:Chinese martial arts with complete lists of styles and weapons. A great thing about categories is that we can move all "List of" articles into categories, such as moving all styles from List of Chinese martial arts into Category:Chinese martial art styles. Future additions could be additional subcategories in Category:Chinese martial art styles that divide the styles into "internal" and "external". I have been a bit lazy and not added many articles to the categories yet, I'll do that later when I have more time. If you don't like this categorization idea please tell your opinions in this matter. If you like the idea, feel free to start adding articles to these categories, or you can add additional subcategories that you feel are necessary.

- Wintran 23:17, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Categorization options
What would everyone like to see for categorization:
 * 1) All wushu styles placed directly under Category:Chinese martial arts, as well as under the appropriate subcategories.
 * Pro: Easy to find articles, non-controversial
 * Con: More redundancy, category may become crowded.
 * 2) All wushu styles placed only under subcategories of Category:Chinese martial arts such as Category:Traditional wushu and Category:Contemporary wushu.
 * Pro: Less redundancy.
 * Con: More difficult to find articles, potential categorization problems.
 * 3) Others (please specify)

Shawnc 03:50, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I would prefer the first option, but the second option would also be OK by me if others prefer it. My reasoning is that we don't have a big rush of people (unfortunately) writing articles on Chinese styles, so crowding isn't a problem, at least yet. --Fire Star 20:59, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I currently prefer the first option as well. Category:Traditional wushu seems unnecessary to me. Shawnc 11:59, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
 * There seem to be some people who exhibit authoritarian tendencies when it comes to categorization. At least when I tried to do something with spiders I got a lot of flack from a czar. I like the idea of a list of nested categories at the bottom of an article. For instance, there are several variations of Xingyi, so Xingyi could be a subcategory of Neijia. Neijia could be a subcategory of Empty-handed techniques, Empty-handed techniques could be a subcategory of Chinese Martial Arts, and the top category could be Martial Arts. With such a strip of nested categories available, the reader could easily jump to the appropriate level.  Some might want to zoom way out and go from Xingyi to Martial Arts, and some might only want to zoom to Neijia quan. P0M 19:36, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

BLP!!!
I just finished going over the bio for Kwong Wing Lam. It was a mess! The guy's a notable sifu but with no refs and all kinds of unsubstantiated historical claims... It should be AfD'd in accordance with WP:BLP. It needs attention. I'm afraid similar sifu bios may prove equally problematic. I'd suggest people read WP:BLP before listing their sifus. Simonm223 (talk) 19:29, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

title: Category talk:Chinese martial arts


text: Category:Television by country

title: Category:Television by country


text:
No. 12 Squadron RAF

Number 12 Squadron, also known as No. 12 (Bomber) Squadron and occasionally as No. XII Squadron, is a flying squadron of the Royal Air Force (RAF). The squadron reformed in July 2018 as a joint RAF/Qatar Emiri Air Force squadron. It is currently based at RAF Coningsby, Lincolnshire, and operates the Eurofighter Typhoon FGR4, while temporarily integrating Qatari air and ground crews in order to provide training and support as part of the Qatari purchase of 24 Typhoons from the UK.

The World Wars
No. 12 Squadron Royal Flying Corps (RFC) was formed in February 1915 from a flight of No. 1 Squadron RFC based at Netheravon Airfield in Wiltshire. The squadron moved to France in September 1915 and operated a variety of aircraft on operations over the Western Front during the First World War. In March 1918, the squadron was re-equipped with the Bristol F.2b Fighter just before becoming part of the newly formed Royal Air Force. The squadron, by then based at Bickendorf in Germany, was disbanded in 1922.

The squadron re-formed at RAF Northolt in West London on 1 April 1923, operating the de Havilland DH.9A. In 1924, it moved to RAF Andover in Hampshire and converted to the Fairey Fawn, a single-engined biplane bomber. The Fawns were replaced in 1926 with the Fairey Fox, which influenced the adoption of the fox's head as part of the squadron badge and the squadron's motto. The squadron was the only RAF user of the Fairey Fox and its performance was superior to other types, resulting in the motto of 'Leads the Field'. In 1931, the squadron re-equipped with the Sydney Camm designed Hawker Hart. In October 1935 the squadron moved to Aden, but returned to Andover in August 1936. The Harts were replaced by the Hawker Hind in 1936 and in 1938 the squadron was equipped with Fairey Battles.

On the first day of the Second World War the squadron moved to France to begin operations. On 12 May 1940, over the Albert Canal, Belgium, one bridge in particular was being used by the invading German Army, with protection from fighter aircraft, anti-aircraft and machine-guns. The RAF was ordered to demolish this vital bridge, and five Fairey Battles from the squadron were dispatched.

At Amifontaine, 12 Squadron was briefed for an attack on the bridges near Maastricht with six Battles. After the fate of Belgian Battles attacking the day before, the commander asked for volunteers and every pilot stepped forward; the six crews on standby were chosen. Two Blenheim squadrons were supposed to attack Maastricht at the same time as a diversion and twelve Hurricane squadrons were flying in support but half of these were operating to the north-west and the others were only flying in the vicinity, except for 1 Squadron, which was to sweep ahead to clear away German fighters.

Three Battles of B Flight were to attack the bridge at Veldwezelt and three from A Flight the bridge at Vroenhoven. Two Battles of A Flight took off at 8:00 a.m. and the Battles climbed to 7000 ft; 15 mi short of Maastricht, the aircraft received anti-aircraft fire, surprising the crews with the extent of the German advance. The Hurricane pilots saw about 120 German fighters above them and attacked; three Bf 109s and six Hurricanes were shot down. During the diversion, A Flight dived over the Maastricht−Tongeren road towards the Vroenhoven bridge covered by three Hurricanes; a Bf 109 closed on the leading aircraft, then veered off towards the second Battle, which hid in a cloud. The Battles dived from 6000 ft and bombed at 2000 ft, both being hit in the engine, one Battle came down in a field, the crew being captured. The second Battle crew, having shaken off the Bf 109, saw bombs from the first Battle explode on the bridge and hit the water and the side of the canal. The pilot turned away through a web of tracer from ground fire and was hit by a Bf 109, then the rear gunner damaged the German fighter. The port fuel tank caught fire, the pilot ordered the crew to parachute and then noticed that the fire had gone out. The pilot nursed the bomber home but ran out of fuel a few miles short and landed in a field; the observer got back to Amifontaine but the gunner was taken prisoner.

Five minutes later, B Flight attacked the bridge at Veldwezelt, having flown over Belgium in line astern at 50 ft. One Battle was hit and caught fire before the target, bombed and crashed near the canal; the pilot, despite severe burns, saving the crew who were taken prisoner. A second Battle was hit, zoomed while on fire, dived into the ground and exploded, killing the crew. The third Battle made a steep turn near the bridge then dived into it, destroying the west end. German engineers began immediately to build a pontoon bridge.

The attack met intense anti-aircraft fire, but the mission was accomplished, much of the success being due to the coolness and resource of the pilot Flying Officer Garland of the leading aircraft and the navigation of Sergeant Gray. Notwithstanding the success of the mission, the leading aircraft and three others did not return. Flying Officer Garland and Sergeant Gray were both posthumously awarded the Victoria Cross.

No. 12 Squadron returned to England in June. It was stationed initially at RAF Finningley in South Yorkshire, before moving to RAF Binbrook in Lincolnshire during July 1940, when it was refurnished with Battles. Amongst other missions, the squadron carried out anti-invasion strikes against shipping in Boulogne Harbour in northern France, most notably on 17 and 19 August. The squadron was one of the last No.1 Group units to conduct operations with Fairey Battles. These took place on 15/16 October 1940, when No. 301 (Polish) Squadron bombed Boulogne and Nos. 12 and 142 Squadrons bombed Calais. By November 1940, the squadron had been re-equipped with the Vickers Wellington medium bomber, remaining for the time being at RAF Binbrook. The squadron moved again in 1942, to RAF Wickenby also in Lincolnshire, and soon after converted to operate the Avro Lancaster a heavy bomber.

Cold War
In 1946, No. 12 Squadron re-equipped with the Avro Lincoln, another heavy bomber. In 1952, the squadron joined the jet-age and re-equipped with the English Electric Canberra jet bomber. After 44 years continuous service the squadron was again disbanded on 1 July 1961. On 1 July 1962, the squadron was re-formed to operate eight Avro Vulcan V bombers equipped with Yellow Sun one megaton free-fall strategic nuclear bombs for medium to high altitude release. The squadron initially operated Vulcans from RAF Coningsby in Lincolnshire and then later from RAF Cottesmore in Rutland. The advent of effective Soviet surface-to-air-missiles made high-flying bombers vulnerable, and in late 1966 the squadron took delivery of eight WE.177B strategic nuclear laydown bombs for low-level penetration missions. It was assigned to Supreme Allied Commander Europe (SACEUR) as part of the UK strategic nuclear forces deployed with that 450 kt weapon, that was intended as a temporary stop-gap until the UK Polaris force began to take over the strategic nuclear delivery role. The squadron stood down from this role on 31 December 1967. It was then intended to re-form the squadron with the BAC TSR-2 and then the General Dynamics F-111K but both acquisitions were cancelled by the British Government.

No. 12 Squadron was eventually re-formed at RAF Honington in Suffolk on 1 October 1969 with twelve Blackburn Buccaneer aircraft assigned to Supreme Allied Commander Atlantic (SACLANT) in the anti-shipping role, equipped with twelve WE.177 nuclear bombs and free-falling conventional high explosive bombs, and from 1974 with Martel missiles for non-nuclear strike.

During the late 1970s the squadron featured in the RAF documentary film 12 Squadron Buccaneers, produced by the Central Office of Information. The film features the squadron's deployment from Honington to RAF Gibraltar in the Mediterranean for NATO exercise Open Gate, where they carry out a low-level anti-shipping mission.

The squadron moved to RAF Lossiemouth in Morayshire during 1980, still in the same anti-shipping role.

During the 1991 Gulf War, personnel from all three Buccaneer squadrons at Lossiemouth, including No. 12 Squadron, took part in Operation Granby, the aircraft's first combat operation. Following a short-notice decision to deploy to the Middle East, the first batch of six aircraft were brought to readiness in under 72 hours, including the adoption of desert-pink camouflage and additional war-time equipment. The first six aircraft departed from Lossiemouth for Muharraq in Bahrain at 04:00 on 26 January 1991. Twelve Buccaneers operated as target designators and it became common for each attack formation to comprise four Tornados and two Buccaneers; each Buccaneer carrying a Pave Spike laser designator pod, one as a spare in case of equipment failure. The Buccaneer force became known as the Sky Pirates in reference to the maritime history of the Buccaneer. Each aircraft had a Jolly Roger flag painted on its port side, alongside nose art featuring female characters. In recognition of their Scottish roots, the Buccaneers were also named after Speyside whisky such as Glenfiddich, Glen Elgin and The Macallan. Hostilities ended in late February 1991, the Buccaneers having flown 218 sorties without loss, designating targets for other aircraft and later dropping 48 Paveway II laser-guided bombs.

In October 1993, the squadron retired its Buccaneers.

Panavia Tornado GR (1993–2018)
In September 1993, No. 27 Squadron, then based at RAF Marham in Norfolk, disbanded and immediately re-formed as No. 12 (B) Squadron operating twelve Panavia Tornado GR1B aircraft and relocated to RAF Lossiemouth. The squadron was equipped with eighteen WE.177 nuclear weapons.

During December 1998, the squadron took part in Operation Desert Fox, the four-day air campaign against Iraq. Deployments to the Persian Gulf continued, flying the upgraded Tornado GR4 from 2001, and included major contributions in 2003 as part of Operation Telic as well as supporting the first free elections in Iraq for 50 years in January 2005. In 2006 and again in 2008, No. 12 (B) Squadron provided armed overwatch for UK and US ground operations in Iraq. Shortly afterwards, as British troops withdrew from the country, the Tornado fleet based in the region also returned to the UK, marking the end of a long era of the aircraft in theatre. Between 6 and 16 October 2008, the squadron deployed to RAF Fairford, Gloucestershire, to participate in Exercise Crown Condor alongside Saab JAS 39 Gripens from the Blekinge Wing of the Swedish Air Force.

In June 2009, the squadron deployed ten jets to RAF Akrotiri, Cyprus, eight of which continued to Kandahar in Afghanistan. This marked the start of Tornado GR4 operations in Afghanistan, with the type replacing the Harrier GR9 in theatre. For over four months, No. 12 (B) Squadron successfully provided support to the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF), including close air support for, amongst others, British, American, Canadian and Afghan troops in all parts of the country. On 16 October 2009, No. 12 (B) Squadron returned to Lossiemouth after having handed over to a Marham-based GR4 squadron.

Between subsequent Operation Herrick deployments during 2011, No. 12 (B) Squadron was deployed in support of Operation Ellamy, the UK's participation in the military intervention in Libya under United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973. This saw ten aircrew deploy to Gioia del Colle in southern Italy to bolster the Tornado component during the peak of operations. The remainder of the squadron was held at readiness to move to RAF Marham to launch Storm Shadow raids on hardened Libyan targets. These missions required three air-to-air refuelling brackets on the outward journey and one further on return to Gioia Del Colle. No. 12 (B) Squadron carried out their last tour of Afghanistan from July to October 2013, being replaced by No. 617 Squadron. The squadron disbanded on 31 March 2014 under the command of Wing Commander Simon Strasdin.

All Tornado aircraft were due to be withdrawn from RAF operations by the end of 2015. Consequently, No. II (AC) Squadron was expected to stand down on 31 March 2015 as a Tornado squadron at RAF Marham, and reactivate the following day as a Eurofighter Typhoon squadron at RAF Lossiemouth. However, in October 2014, Prime Minister David Cameron announced that No. II (AC) Squadron's disbanding and reformation would be put on hold to allow Tornados to continue to support operations against ISIL. As a consequence, the new No. II (AC) Squadron formed at Lossiemouth on 12 January 2015, and No. 12 (B) Squadron re-formed the same day at RAF Marham, taking over the former Tornado aircraft and assets of No. II (AC) Squadron. The re-formed squadron was commanded by Wing Commander Nikki Thomas, the first female RAF officer to command a fast jet squadron.

In August 2015, Jane's reported that the squadron will stay active for a longer period and it was subsequently deployed to Syria for reconnaissance of ISIS troop movements. The squadron's last mission operating the Tornado took place on 14 December 2017 in the skies over Iraq and Syria. As part of the draw-down of the RAF's Tornado fleet, the squadron disbanded on 14 February 2018, 103 years after it first formed. Squadron personnel were re-assigned to Marham's other Tornado squadrons, No. IX (B) Squadron and No. 31 Squadron and the squadron standard was returned to RAF College Cranwell.

Eurofighter Typhoon (2018–)
On 14 December 2017, it was announced by the Ministry of Defence that No. 12 Squadron would operate the Eurofighter Typhoon and temporarily integrate Qatari air and ground crews in order to provide training and support as part of the Qatari purchase of 24 Typhoons. The squadron reformed on 24 July 2018 as a joint RAF/Qatar Emiri Air Force (QEAF) unit at Horse Guards in London. No. 12 (B) Squadron received its first Typhoon FGR4 (ZK436) in July 2019 at RAF Coningsby in Lincolnshire. In November 2019, No. 12 Squadron deployed to Qatar and participated in Exercise Epic Skies III alongside the QEAF for three weeks.

Aircraft operated

 * Avro 504 (1915)
 * Martinsyde S.1 (1915)
 * Morane-Saulnier H (1915)
 * Voisin LA (1915)
 * Royal Aircraft Factory BE.2b (1915)
 * Royal Aircraft Factory BE.2c (1915–1917)
 * Royal Aircraft Factory RE.7 (1915–1916)
 * Royal Aircraft Factory RE.5 (1915–1916)
 * Bristol Scout (1915–1916)
 * Morane-Saulnier LA (1915–1916)
 * Royal Aircraft Factory FE.2b (1916)
 * Morane-Saulnier BB (1916)
 * Royal Aircraft Factory BE.2d (1916–1917)
 * Royal Aircraft Factory BE.2e (1916–1917)
 * Royal Aircraft Factory RE.8 (1917–1919)
 * Bristol F.2B Fighter (1918–1922)
 * Airco DH.9A (1923–1924)
 * Fairey Fawn (1924–1926)
 * Fairey Fox (1926–1931)
 * Hawker Hart (1931–1936)
 * Hawker Hind (1936–1938)
 * Fairey Battle (1938–1940)
 * Vickers Wellington II (1940–1942)
 * Vickers Wellington III (1942)
 * Avro Lancaster I & III (1942–1946)
 * Avro Lincoln B.2 (1946–1952)
 * English Electric Canberra B.2 (1952–1955)
 * English Electric Canberra B.6 (1955–1961)
 * English Electric Canberra B.2 (1957–1959)
 * Avro Vulcan B.2 (1962–1967)
 * Hawker Siddeley Buccaneer S.2B (1969–1993)
 * Panavia Tornado GR1B (1993–2001)
 * Panavia Tornado GR4 (2001–2018)
 * Eurofighter Typhoon FGR4 (2019–present)

Video clips

 * , accessed 20 October 2009.

title: No. 12 Squadron RAF


text:
Kangal Shepherd Dog

The Kangal Shepherd Dog (Kangal Çoban Köpeği) is a traditional Turkish breed of large livestock guardian dog. The breed name derives from that of the town and district of Kangal in Sivas Province, the easternmost province of the Central Anatolia Region in central Turkey. The coat colour varies from pale fawn to wolf grey, always with a black mask.

It is a traditional flock guardian dog, kept with flocks of sheep to fend off wolves and other predators. Some have been exported to African countries such as Namibia, Kenya and Tanzania, where they successfully protect local flocks from cheetahs, thus contributing to the conservation of endangered cheetah populations.

History

The Kangal is a traditional working breed of Central Anatolia. The name derives from that of the town and district of Kangal in Sivas Province, the easternmost province of the Central Anatolia Region. The Kangal has been used by shepherds for protection against wolves and other predators for centuries. A DNA study found that the dogs of Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Afghanistan are genetically closest to Kangal dogs, and the researchers propose that the breed may have been brought from Central Asia by the nomadic Turks.

The Kangal was definitively accepted by the Fédération Cynologique Internationale in 1989; the most recent breed standard was published in 2018.

The Kennel Club of the United Kingdom recognised the Turkish Kangal Dog with effect from April 2013, and a provisional breed standard was published early in that year; owners of dogs registered as Anatolian Shepherd Dogs could apply for them to be re-registered under the new name.

Around 300 of the dogs have been given to farmers in Namibia since 1994 by the Cheetah Conservation Fund to help protect livestock from cheetah attacks, and the programme has been extended to Kenya. Since then, the number of cheetahs killed by farmers is calculated to have fallen from 19 per farmer annually to 2.4. Livestock losses have been cut significantly at more than 80% of the farms where the dogs have been adopted. The great majority of cheetahs that are still killed by farmers are killed after specific attacks on livestock. Previously, the cats were tracked and killed whenever they neared a farm.

Anatolian Shepherd
Anatolian Shepherd Dog is the name used in the United States to describe dogs descended from regional Turkish livestock guardian dogs, particularly the Kangal but also the Akbash, from the late 1960s. In 1967 a US Navy Lieutenant who was stationed in Turkey, Robert Ballard, acquired two working livestock guardians Zorba and Peki, from breeders in the Ankara region, Zorba was a long-coated pinto-colored dog and Peki a short-coated buff-colored bitch. In the late 1960s Ballard returned to the United States and took his dogs with him and in 1970 the pair bred their first litter, becoming the foundation stock of the breed in the United States. A breed club was quickly formed and further examples were imported from Turkey. In developing the breed, the American enthusiasts acted without understanding of regional Turkish varieties of shepherd's dogs, with the result that the American dogs could be bred with various coat lengths, colors and color patterns whilst in Turkey the different breeds breed more true to a set coat type. This was further exacerbated by most of these dogs being sourced in the intermediate zone between the main breeding centers of the Akbash and the Kangal, where examples of both types can be found. In subsequent years animosity developed between American breeders, who insisted their dogs were the true Turkish shepherd's dog, and Turkish breeders who believed, and stated, they were an amalgam of various Turkish breeds. Insults and counter-insults were exchanged with American breeders accusing the Turks of marketing dogs of dubious ancestry as independent breeds and the Turks stating the Americans were breeding crossbred dogs. The name Anatolian Shepherd Dog is unknown in Turkey and the breed is sometimes described as having the Turkish name of Çoban Köpeği which means 'shepherd's dog', or livestock guardian dog. Since the 1980s Americans have almost exclusively imported Kangals and the Anatolian has increasingly conformed to that breed type. Despite this, pups of mixed appearance are still whelped and Turkish authorities still refuse to recognise Anatolians as a purebred Turkish breed.

Characteristics
Dogs usually stand between 72 and 78 cm at the withers, bitches between 65 and 73 cm, with a 2 cm tolerance either way for both sexes.

The Kangal Shepherd Dog is not as heavy as some other mastiff breeds, allowing it greater speed and agility than larger dogs. The dogs can reach speeds of up to 56 km/h. The under-layer provides insulation against both severe Anatolian winters and the fierce summer sun, while the outer-layer repels water and snow. This combination of coat allows it to regulate its core temperature more efficiently, while the coat is dense enough to repel rupture from wolf bites.

Use
The Kangal is a traditional flock guardian dog, kept with flocks of sheep to fend off wolves and other predators. Some have been exported to African countries such as Namibia, Kenya and Tanzania, where they successfully protect local flocks from cheetahs, thus contributing to the conservation of endangered cheetah populations.

title: Kangal Shepherd Dog


text:
Talk:Protest Warrior/Archive 2

Problems with current version
The protected version is much better than the version used by 24.103 and other editors. However it has these serious POV problems:
 * Defining liberalism as collectivism, nazism, theocracy, etc.
 * Implying that liberals are morally bankrupt (this needs to be attributed to PW better, the current statement is ambiguous)
 * Rephrase "The website introduction pretty much says it all"
 * In "whether they be Communist, Nazi, theocrat, neo-Conservative, or Libertarian," this list is unnecessary and the Nazi mention especially serves no good.
 * The external links to criticism must stay in the article. External links do not have to present the subject in a positive light.

Rhobite 01:31, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)

 * The external links should be allowed, so long as they are at the bottom of the page, and separated into "pro" and "con". The liberalism thing is refering to the american usage of the word liberal, which is innaccurate. In reality the word "liberal" means "libertarian" essentially. The mention of Nazi is a good one I think, because it makes clear just how bad these guys think lefties are. It is very common concept that left-wingers are ignorantly pushing towards dictatorship and totalitarianism, fascism, communism, etc... Anyways, I'd like the article unprotected, so I'd be happy to discuss whatever needs discussing so that we can begin editing w a concensus. Sam [Spade] 16:12, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Also:
 * Subjective and suspicious comparisons between PW's forums and "many other left-wing political forums" -- PW is not the authority on how other forums operate and it certainly isn't verified encyclopedic information that PW even runs its forums in the way it claims.

-- Antaeus Feldspar 16:25, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I can agree with that, the article does seem to have a slight "PW's have a really super website" slant, which could do w some toning down. That said the fact that they encourage people of various politics, and apparently don't ban people based on ideology seems noteworthy. Sam [Spade] 16:42, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Not really. I'm sure there are forums that actually do ban posters based on ideology, but it is certainly not the rule for left-wing forums, and that is exactly what the write-up as it stands would have us believe is the case.  They may also preach that they "encourage people of various politics", but we do not have any evidence whatever that they practice what they preach; there are very few groups where we could take their word for a claim like that, and this group is certainly not one of them.  I mean, just look at the sentence that ends that paragraph:  "Protest Warriors believe they are right and therefore hold to the view that engaging in open and honest debate is far more effective than simply silencing the opposition."  If you took this as an authentic statement of their beliefs, and took it on faith that they practice what they preach, you would never guess that in fact the group's primary tactic -- practically the reason for their existence -- is to falsely attribute discrediting straw man statements to their opposition; that's certainly not part of "open and honest debate".  -- Antaeus Feldspar 18:09, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Straw man?
It should be noted that Protest Warrior's main form of activism is the wide-scale practice of the straw man technique, claiming that by displaying easily-refuted slogans such as "Communism has only killed 100 million people... let's give it another chance" they have thereby "exposed" the bankruptcy of leftism.

With that being their modus operandi and the easily-refuted lies of a persistent, anonymous vandal being what forced the page to be protected in a form that reads like a Protest Warrior press release, it's no wonder the suspicion is that the vandal is only another PWer, serving the PW's ends. -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:10, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * That strikes me as an extremely POV, unhelpful viewpoint. Is there something specific you'd like to discuss about the article, rather than other editors and their theoretical politics, or insults towards the organization in question? There is absolutely no way that calling the protest warriors claims "straw man" arguments is going to be allowed in the article. Unless you have a quote from an expert source stating such, it would be an outlandish violation of the NPOV policy to state that. Sam [Spade] 16:23, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Well, please re-read my statement. And then re-read the article.  Do you feel that these two slogans:

 * "Saddam only killed his own people.. it was none of our business"

 * and

 * "Communism has only killed 100 million people... let's give it another chance"

 * are actually accurate statements of what the left-wing believes? If not, then what Protest Warrior is doing by holding those signs up in the middle of protests, pretending that those beliefs are indeed what the left espouses, is holding them up as straw men.  It's inherent in the definition of straw man; the only way it can be denied is if you truly assert that the modern American left in general does indeed still support Communism.  I marvel at this idea of yours that it would be a violation of NPOV to point out that what the Protest Warriors do on a regular basis, their primary tactic, is in fact the straw man rhetorical technique.  -- Antaeus Feldspar 18:20, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You appear to be unable or unwilling to understand the humorous nature of these signs, as well as their obvious intent, which is to shock, amuse, embaress and make distinct the nature of their oppositions position. And yes, the extreme left (and who else goes to these protests?) does advocate communism, have you talked to any of them lately? There are plenty here on the wiki itself, most of the "anarcho-communist" persuasion, and if thats not enough, try reading up on the anti-globalism movement. Think about how democrats feel about cuba, for example. Frankly, I find it outlandish that you would ignore how many people say (usually as an exageration, but sometimes sincerely) that the Democratic party is communist. Noam Chomsky, anyone? I think you might do well to read a bit of him, and compare it w say.. Ann Coulter ;) Sam [Spade] 21:28, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Plenty of people go to protests for plenty of different reasons Sam, so please don't assume that you know what they believe. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with Chomsky and Coulter. Rhobite 22:28, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)

 * I wasn't suggesting that all war protestors are communists. I was making it clear that some are. I think the fact that essentially all of them are far left-wing goes without saying. If you don't understand what I was saying about Noam and Ann, try following my advice and reading up a bit on the two of them, and where they differ ;) Sam [Spade] 22:58, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * It does not go without saying that essentially all war protestors are far left-wing. That characterization is false. I'm familiar with Chomsky and Coulter's views, but I still don't know what your point was re: their mention. What profound revelation am I supposed to have after comparing their views? What does it have to do with Protest Warrior? Rhobite 00:10, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

 * We don't agree re: war protestor demographics, so lets either cite it or drop it. Prob just drop it, since I don't intend to say that within the article, but I suppose if we had a cite it would be an interesting factoid. Similar w Coulter and Chomsky, its not terribly important to the article, and we should prob just drop it, but my point was to make it clear how different POV's re: politics can be, theoretically helping those unable to comprehend the POV of their opposition to become more aware of the diversity of thought. Also Chomsky is a commie, and coulter an anti-commie, anti-democrat, who thinks democrats are traitors, etc... She is a bit of a protest warrior herself, as Chomsky is clearly an anti-war protester (altho I doubt either of them walks around w placards very often ;) Sorry for having been esoteric or whatnot, Sam [Spade] 00:21, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * So, basically, you're saying that they are not offering straw man distortions of their opponents' positions because it's an accurate representation of their positions? That's crap.  One doesn't have to be a member of the "extreme left" to support Kerry; one doesn't have to be a member of the "extreme left" even to go to a pro-Kerry rally.  Therefore there is no justification for Protest Warrior to send out a Che Guevara-lookalike to talk about why all good Communists support Kerry.  By your logic, since Protest Warrior is on the right, and among those on the right are "white power" advocates, then our persistent vandal would actually be completely justified in inserting "white power" language into PW's manifesto in order to "shock, amuse, embaress and make distinct the nature of their oppositions position."  -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:06, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * If this was a debate forum, and not an encyclopedia, than the vandal wouldn't be a vandal, and he would be at least vaguely justified in expressing his opinion. On the other hand, referring to my position as "crap" would not be acceptable in any debate forum that I have been a part of. It seems very clear to me that you have a strong POV on this subject, and are not interested in seeing the article present this organization in a NPOV manner. My first thought is that perhaps this is not the best article for you to be editing. My second thought is that if you insist on saying bad things about Protest Warriors, I recommend you start looking for some citable sources, because you aren?t going to be allowed to simply pour your POV into the article, but you can cite expert sources, assuming its verifiable, and relevant. As far as if white power advocates are on the Right, I don't agree that they are, since I see Fascism, Nazism, Totalitarianism, etc.. to be left-wing ideologies. See . Clearly we don't agree about very many things, but I hope we do agree with the Foundation issues, and thus will seek to make this article as neutral as possible. Cheers, Sam [Spade] 23:24, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Funny, I could very well say the same of you. (In response to the accusation "It seems very clear to me that you have a strong POV on this subject, and are not interested in seeing the article present this organization in a NPOV manner."):  As applied to myself, the first part of that statement is true, but the second is an unwarranted personal attack upon me.  Which cannot be defended against, BTW, with the tu quoque defense "Well you called my position crap and that's a personal attack", because it isn't; I criticized your position, and did so sharply, but I did not attack you personally, even though it would have been easy for me to say "Wait, now he's actually claiming that Protest Warrior's slogans are accurate representations of the left's stance?  Because he must know what atrocious and indefensible nonsense that is, it follows that he is a dishonest editor."  I did not; I simply pointed out that claiming that Protest Warrior is correct in attributing to the average protestor on the left an indifference to the murder of 100,000,000 people is crap.

 * Of course, now that you are claiming that I must not be interested in NPOV because my phrasing was "crap" rather than "atrocious and indefensible nonsense", it's getting harder for me to assume good faith. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:38, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * How many sources does one need to cite in order to state that water is wet? Protest Warrior makes no secret of its methods, and anyone who realizes the vast yawning gap between the actual beliefs of the left and PW's grotesque misrepresentation of those beliefs can see that PW is in the business of straw men.  If you want to argue in the article that the average Kerry rally attendee can safely be assumed to be ideologically synonymous with Noam Chomsky, you are the one who's going to have to cite the sources.  -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:38, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Please don't chop up my text; it makes communicating intelligibly more difficult. I am not personally attacking you; I am noticing that you think it is an obvious fact that Protest Warriors are a fallacious organization, and that the article should describe their tactics as "Straw man". That is POV. I didn't say that the average Kerry rally attendee is ideologically synonymous w Noam Chomsky, and of course I don't want the article to say that, nor any of the POV statements I did make. That is a straw man BTW, attempting to portray me as having said something I didn't, something very different from the sarcasm and obviously provocative humor which Protest warriors utilize. They aren’t attempting to confuse the debate by summing up their opponents position falsely, rather they are humorously exaggerating and presenting their own version of what they think of the lefts position. Of course no Lefty would put things that way, and nobody is suggesting they would. Rather it is a highly effective method of antagonizing protestors... protestors who incidentally are trying to antagonize others w their chants; disturbing, exaggerated signs, and other obnoxious antics. Isn't that the whole idea of protesting, to make a big annoying fuss? Sam [Spade] 11:50, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * As noted previously, claiming that I must be unwilling or unable to work towards NPOV because I don't consider the current state of the article (which contains no criticism whatsoever of this controversial group) to already be NPOV, is indeed a personal attack upon me. As for the rest of your reply, once again you are juggling with facts, hoping that if they stay in the air long enough, they will be pointing to a different conclusion when they come down.  But here is where the facts lie:  Either the Protest Warriors are accurately capturing the essence of their targets' positions, and putting their own sardonic spin on them (oh, yes, I recognize the humorous intent, I just don't view it as an open pass to disrupt others' free speech) or they are presenting their own spin on some other position that they are falsely presenting as that of their targets.  That's it.

 * No, I think that definitely, if there is one of us who is worthy of your charge of "doesn't want to see NPOV applied to this article", it is you. Your misunderstanding is almost willful: claiming in one breath that the Protest Warriors are correct and justified because Democrats are Communists and just look at Noam Chomsky to see that it's true; then feigning hurt and pretending it was someone else who tried to lump John Kerry and Noam Chomsky and Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini into one big bin labelled "The Left".

 * "Protestors [...] are trying to antagonize others w their chants; disturbing, exaggerated signs, and other obnoxious antics. Isn't that the whole idea of protesting, to make a big annoying fuss?" As Rhobite already pointed out to you (and as you ignored, in a most unbecoming manner) plenty of people go to protests for plenty of different reasons.  Hmmmm, let's see, since you demand citations for any fact which goes against your prejudices, how about this?  "Protesters may organize a protest as a way of publicly and forcefully making their opinions heard in an attempt to influence public opinion or government policy [.] "  Do you need any more citations before you can accept that some protesters protest to get a message across?  And when protesters are trying to get a message across, what is the accurate description of a second party who comes up and tries to attribute a different message to them, tries to say "No, no, no, don't listen to them to find out what they believe, listen to our 'humorous' description of what we claim they believe"?  -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:25, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Proposed text for this point
I suggest that the following sentence would restore some balance to the article:

While Protest Warrior describes itself as 'exposing' the dangers of leftism, critics charge that by defining "leftism" with uncommon broadness and attributing extremist beliefs to the left in general, Protest Warrior is really engaging in straw man smearing of its opposition.

It should be noted that this language has already been opposed by Sam, who feels that that this text would be original research until it can be made in the form of some appeal to authority. I, myself, fail to see why the moderate leftist position cannot be represented at all (violating the NPOV principle of representing all sides of a dispute fairly) until some "authority" among moderate leftists can be quoted to say "Why, no, in fact, these extremist positions are not what we believe." Until this imbalance is addressed, we have the peculiar situation where Protest Warrior can smear their targets through this article just as they do through their "Operations" but their targets are disallowed from replying, and Sam thinks that's fair. -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:42, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

propaganda outlet, no encyclopaedic content
It's a worldwide organization: No it's not. A website that has some members from outside of the US is not a worldwide organization

leftism, that is statist collectivism (Communism, Nazism, theocracy): Nonsense. Leftism is not statist collectivism. And neither Nazism nor a theocracy are leftism.

to provide an alternative ideological viewpoint: And that is simply rightwing extremism (Read the forums!), no alternative viewpoint at all.

has gained fame and notoriety by "crashing" left-wing events: Showing up with funny signs is not crashing anything. Ten Protest Warriors in a protest march of 50.000 is nothing like a an incident, barely noticed by anyone.

protests of their own, often against what it considers to be pro-terrorist organizations: Again implying that is is leftism.

One of the more notable segments of Protest Warrior footage can be seen in their Crashing the Protests video which shows a leftist: A leftist? A home video showing one single individual for sure is reason enough to refer to it on Wikipedia. The opinion of that individual is that of all leftists (Nazis, pro-terroists, theocrats). Complete nonsense.

The website is often zealous and confrontational and, much like the Protest Warrior signs, often uses humor and sarcasm: No sarcasm and no humor to be found on that site. This is a cheap attempt to hide the Protest Warriors main message: Muslims are a threat to the world and to the US in particular. Flatten, nuke and kill them (To be read thousands of times on Protest Warrior!)

The active forums of Protest Warrior have a large selection of political discussion and are split up into nine different sections: Incorrect. There exist 2 forum with political discussions (liberty, enemy) all others are not related to politics. The 2 forums mostly contain "postwhoring", "Are libbies gay"-polls, "Death to Muslims"-topics and similar. The entire forum section as well as the Protest Warrior main page is banned by most Internet Watch Organizations for obvious reasons: Hate speech, racism, intolerance and criminal activities.

welcomes people of all political backgrounds to their forums: Absolutely not. People other than rightwing extremists get harassed, banned; their posts, signatures and aavatars get faked; their personal messages get published in the open, their IP addresses and personal data are posted on the forums by the admins and more. Additionally the Protest Warriors as well as the admins are openly calling for and approving the hacking and defacing of other ('leftist') websites.

Protest Warrior claims that no poster has ever been banned for stating any opinion.: the absolute untruth. Read last paragraph.

Protest Warriors believe they are right: A worthy contribution to Wikipedia!

hold to the view that engaging in open and honest debate: Read above.

External links: Three links to pages on Protest Warrior is nothing but advertising.

Summary: The entire article is a propaganda outlet, missing any relevant informations about the group, containing lots of Protest Warrior claims this and that, misguiding informations about the goups goals and activities as well as that the article does not come down to the roots of Protest Warrior: Deeply rooted hate for Muslims and the wish to exterminate them. User:Bijoux (Sig added after by Sam [Spade] 11:37, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC))

 * Great, more POV! Just what the article doesn't need. Is anybody else interested in editing this article from a NPOV? Sam [Spade] 11:39, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * POV?? Instead of posting personal opinions and defending the deceiptive content of the article (eg You appear to be unable or unwilling to understand the humorous nature of these signs, as well as their obvious intent, which is to shock, amuse, embaress and make distinct the nature of their oppositions position.), what is a completely wrong as these signs are not intended to be humorous but rather than that the program of Protest Warrior, I did post simple facts about the recent article and the flaws in it. If you intend to criticize my critics then read on Protest Warrior itself before doing so instead of relying on the edits and discussion entries of Protest Warrior members (who called for support on their website in order to get a completely whitewashed entry in the Wikipedia). Then we can talk again.
 * When you think that Protest Warrior claims belong into a Wikipedia entry then put ALL these claims into it: Muslims must die. Or Allah, a pedophile child-molester and The Muslim world must be turned into glass. Shocked? Embarassed? Amused? I suppose you are, as you said this about Protest Warrior. And this is not POV but only quoted from the thousands of articles with similar content on Protest Warrior.
 * This is an encyclopedia here, right? Then put encyclopaedic facts into that article and not propaganda material of that group. Bijoux 13:33, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Bijoux, if that's true then it should be added to the article. But don't place too much importance on what people say in the forums. Free Republic, although it's not a perfect article, should be our model here. People have said some awful stuff on Freep, but it's not presented as the site's official stance. There's a difference between posting racist stuff and having ProtestWarrior signs saying racist stuff. PW has never made a sign saying "muslims must die" or similar rhetoric. It's true that people say some pretty terrible stuff on all forums, but don't blow it out of proportion. And certainly don't use that as a reason to remove other, unrelated parts of this article. I've seen a lot of people around here lately who think "Group X does this thing I disagree with, therefore I should delete unrelated parts of their article to punish them." Rhobite 14:20, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

''No it's not. A website that has some members from outside of the US is not a worldwide organization'' - Yes it is. When membership is open to everyone in the world, it is a worldwide organization. And I've seen links to counter-protests outside of the USA. That's going to stay.

''howing up with funny signs is not crashing anything. Ten Protest Warriors in a protest march of 50.000 is nothing like a an incident, barely noticed by anyone.'' The Associated Press covered the Protest Warrior organization during the RNC convention, and there was more coverage during the convention.

Again implying that is is leftism. - Nope, I'm betting this refers to pro-Palestinian intifada organizations.

''A leftist? A home video showing one single individual for sure is reason enough to refer to it on Wikipedia. The opinion of that individual is that of all leftists (Nazis, pro-terroists, theocrats). Complete nonsense.'' This could be removed and replaced with just the video page, and the videos can be described.

Flatten, nuke and kill them (To be read thousands of times on Protest Warrior!) Can you please provide proof of "thousands of time"? I did a "Search for all terms" search on the forum using the words "nuke" and "flatten". I only found 1 relevant result, and in that topic, someone was quoting the phrase itself and not using it.

''Incorrect. There exist 2 forum with political discussions (liberty, enemy) all others are not related to politics. The 2 forums mostly contain "postwhoring", "Are libbies gay"-polls, "Death to Muslims"-topics and similar. The entire forum section as well as the Protest Warrior main page is banned by most Internet Watch Organizations for obvious reasons: Hate speech, racism, intolerance and criminal activities.'' Fair enough on your first point. On your second point, once again, you're just POV ranting without any information.

''Absolutely not. People other than rightwing extremists get harassed, banned; their posts, signatures and aavatars get faked; their personal messages get published in the open, their IP addresses and personal data are posted on the forums by the admins and more. Additionally the Protest Warriors as well as the admins are openly calling for and approving the hacking and defacing of other ('leftist') websites.'' You're going to have to provide proof, once again.

as well as that the article does not come down to the roots of Protest Warrior: Deeply rooted hate for Muslims and the wish to exterminate them - This is just simply unsubstantiated POV again.

I agree with Rhobite on this one, lets try to use Free Republic as a model, since the two organizations are somewhat similar, --65.161.65.104 16:30, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Wow, glad to have you, anon! Good comments. Would you like to form a user account? Sam [Spade] 16:39, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Why do I get the feeling that two Protest Warrior members are working together here in order to get a nice, clean and deceiptive PW entry into Wikipedia? Bijoux 11:43, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Unprotection
I want to make it very clear, we are aprox. 1 lightyear away from the concensus needed for unprotection. Sam [Spade] 15:23, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Ignoring the "Straw man" discussion, which veered away from article content, are you sure about this? Granted some anons will probably take potshots at the article, but now that it's on a few more watchlists it should be OK. I'd like to implement the changes I listed, taking your suggestions into account. Rhobite 15:27, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

 * I am perfectly happy to build a concensus with you about what changes might be needed, but some others seem to be stating that they intend to remove goodly amounts of the article, replacing it w inflamatory or POV statements. How about this: You and I maintain dialogue, and edit Talk:Protest Warrior/temp for awhile. If that goes modestly well, and nobody is insisting that they will immediately overhaul the main article into an anti-protest warrior propoganda peice, I will personally request/favor/agree to unprotection. Sam [Spade] 15:32, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Agreed, but I may not have much time available. Rhobite 15:42, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

Revised the first paragraph. "Liberalism" is less pejorative than "leftism," a term that is rarely used outside right-wing critical circles. Removed the POV definitions of leftism. Added a bit from the mission statement, why not get it straight from the horse's mouth? Rhobite 15:54, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

 * as far as liberalism, your right, but the way the term "liberal" is used in the USA is innaccurate and misleading. Maybe if we can word it in such a way to make clear we are not talking about clasical liberalism, which is essentially libertarianism, the very same ideology possesed by many protest warriors themselves! As far as the external link & quotes, feel free to put them back if you feel they are needed, I took them out because I thought they were generally frowned upon on the wiki, but its not a big deal to me. How do you like my change of format? Sam [Spade] 16:37, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I believe "liberalism" is the correct word in context. The word "leftism" is very, very loaded. "left-wing activism" is better than "leftism," but I think "liberalism" is the best choice. I also don't know where this definition came from - it certainly isn't on their site. I couldn't find any "official" position of PW defining liberalism as collectivism, communism or Nazism. It's far better to refer to their mission statement than to make stuff up and attribute it to them. We shouldn't say they have an official definition of collectivism, unless they actually do have one. Quoting their mission statement is acceptable. It should be either a reference or an embedded footnote link. Rhobite 16:54, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

 * Actually I think you might do well to review their site. They use "leftism", and avoid liberalism as much as possible, apparently aware of its correct usage. Please have a look at and . Sam [Spade] 17:12, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * As I said, "leftism" is a pejorative term used almost exclusively by conservatives. While they may use it, it certainly doesn't mean we have to use it objectively. We can mention that PW uses the term. Rhobite 17:43, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

 * Perjorative? I don't agree at all. I also don't understand your usage of "objective" here. We must be objective in writing the article. Usage of "left" to describe the Protest warriors opposition is entirely accurate. Yes, they think Left = amazing stupid and completely unable to make good descisions, but that doesn't mean they are wron g about who they are calling left, just perhaps wrong in their summary of what "left" is. Sam [Spade] 18:39, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I must say I disagree against using the word "liberalism" because it is way too ambiguous and does not it any way provide a clear definition for this context. Both leftist and liberal are wrong terms to use here. I can hardly see how anyone would call a nazi, a liberal, and I belive that both nazis and liberals would be offended by this. Maybe the best solution is to remove leftist and let Statist collectivism remain, or maybe just statist, as the political ideologies they refer to generally is pro big, powerful government. I can't really think of any other term at the moment, but politcal definitions such as this are ambiguous and it isn't easy to find an accurate NPOV definition. Passw0rd

title: Talk:Protest Warrior/Archive 2