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Talk:Grattan massacre

Actual location
I've been to the location of the Blue Water Creek battle, it is on private land and not marked, found it with GPS co-ordinates. It is near Ash Hollow, but not at Ash Hollow, maybe 30 miles away. Unless I'm confused about what is considered "Ash Hollow". If any one local or more knowledgeable can clarify that part of the article. Also of significance the Oregon Trail runs by there. Stbalbach 13:16, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Copyright violation?
http://www.mormontrail.net/mormonnews_detail.php?ID=46 Stbalbach 14:20, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I re-wrote the entire article to fix copyright problems. Stbalbach 16:20, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Article in serious historical error
This article reads as if Harney's attack on Little Thunder's band at Blue Water Creek, a.k.a. the "Battle" of Ash Hollow, is properly referred to as the Grattan Massacre, but it's not. The Grattan Massacre is the 8/19/1854 incident in which Brevet 2nd Lieut. John Grattan was killed along with his entire detachment. The press used the incident to whip up anti-Indian sentiment nationwide. Harney's assault occured over a year later, on 9/3/1855, and is referred to as the Battle of Ash Hollow, a separate incident entirely, which deserves a separate article.

 * Thanks for the clarification. Keeping as one article, the events are so closely linked there is not reason to have seperate articles, created a number of redirects so it all goes to the same place. Still some confusion on proper name, Battle of Ash Hollow or Battle of Bluewater Creek. My National Geographic map shows it as "Bluewater Creek battlefield". --Stbalbach 19:17, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Moved Section
The Battle of Ash Hollow section which was formerly part of this article has been moved to a separate article Battle of Ash Hollow. The Category links on this article are still labeled as Battle of Bluewater Creek. Eventually those will need to be changed also

 * This article seems seriously biased. Since there were no white survivors, we have only the Indian version of events.  This is presented as fact.  It seems to me unlikely that a detachment of twenty seven armed soldiers, bent on violence, (which is implied in the article), should have been wiped out by Indians who had only peaceful intentions.

 * I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Remember, there were 1200 sioux warriors at this camp, vs. 30 soldiers... how do you imagine they would have not been killed to the last man?  The claim that the Army was the aggressor party is supported by the evidence.  Conquering Bear's attempts to compensate the cow's owner prior to LT Grattan's platoon being sent to capture High Forehead shows that they attempted to resolve the issue peacefully. LT Grattan's state of mind and predisposition towards violence was attested to by a US army office stationed at Laramie, whom the article quotes.  In addition, you are incorrect that no Whites survived to give their version of events.  There were two eyewitness: the trader Bordeau (who, despite his friendship with the indians, seems reliable as he left the camp to summon armed Whites from the trading post to help) and the soldier who survived but later died of his wounds (since he was not buried with the others it's a safe assumption that he made it back to Laramie and was able to give his account)

"otherwise known as the Battle of Fort Laramie"
I deleted this assertion in the introduction. I've read fairly widely about the Indian Wars and never heard it called that. A google search on the phrase only turns up this Wiki article. Absolutely nothing on Google Books Search. 71.129.81.136 15:07, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Massacre or Fight?
The source: calls it the "Grattan Fight"; "Massacre" obviously has some negative connotations.

I'd like to see the sources for "Massacre" or switch the article name to "Grattan Fight"

 * Punch "Grattan Massacre" into a Google Book or Scholar search and you'll see hundreds of references. It's always been known as that and it maintains the weight of frequency.  Beck himself calls it a massacre in-text, as indeed it was: every man Grattan had was wiped out. The circumstances of the incident, including Grattan's social ineptitude which contributed to his demise, are properly explained in the article.71.136.180.190 (talk) 19:48, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

 * Grattan Fight on Google gets 245,000 hits; Grattan Massacre gets 78,000 - besides the irrelevance of google hits as a determinant for wk, 'Massacre' carries the the old and passé US 19th cent POV - the title of article should be changed to Grattan Fight.Tttom1 (talk) 02:27, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "Grattan Fight" (you're supposed to use quote marks) gets 8930 results; "Grattan Massacre" gets 16600. And there's a wider disparity on Google Books and Google Scholar, which are a weightier reflection of reliable sources.  108.249.90.70 (talk) 10:23, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree that this was in no way a "massacre" by that time's standards. The soldiers started shooting first and were attacked and killed afterwards, clearly making it a fight. While I do think the term "Grattan Massacre" should still be present in the article, since that's the historical name for it, it should also be mentioned that that wording was chosen by the press for propaganda purposes. When we speak about massacres the US army has commited, it's always about incidents where large amounts of women and children or men who had not posed a threat were murdered, not about soldiers killing warriors who had just attacked them. Billy7 (talk) 05:02, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

When is POV not POV?
When any article discusses American relations with the Indians, of course! Basically a group of armed, high-handed soldiers arrive in a camp and behave like stereotypical 19th-century whites, by being wholly unreasonable on racial grounds: I want my money, "no take a horse" says the chief, "no I want money" says the white man. Predictable, racist and provocative. Viz a viz, the Indians were trying to amenable? But this is not good enough for the soldiers (why not?), hence when the leader of the Indians is gunned down in the back and the all the whites get killed it's wrote up as a massacre. Seems pretty conclusive where the high-handed blame lies. Nevertheless 150 years of racism and bigotry can't be brushed aside. So the title remains a "massacre"; implying an unfair fight. But this is just one many of one-sided "incidents" that have plagued the America's history until the closing of the West in 1890. However when the Indians get butchered it's a battle but when it happens to Europeans it is renamed a massacre. How is that not POV in this article?

 * There are many incidents where soldiers killed indians and it's named as a massacre, such as wounded knee. In this case the incident has historically been known as "the Grattan massacre" so that's the actual name of the topic, POV or not.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.15.0.104 (talk) 11:11, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Are you seriously comparing an actual massacre, where US soldiers murdered mostly women and children, to a fight where Indians killed enemy soldiers who just shot one of them? This was clearly a battle, not a "massacre". It may have been called that historically, but it should be obvious that this term was used only for propaganda purposes. Billy7 (talk) 04:50, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Spelling of Bordeau/Bordeaux
Beck has the trader's name spelled as "Bordeau"; the Hunton Diary as "Bordeaux".Parkwells (talk) 02:30, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

title: Talk:Grattan massacre


text:
World Conker Championships

The World Conker Championships (WCC) is a conkers tournament held annually on the second Sunday in October in the county of Northamptonshire, England. Two players use conkers threaded onto a string and take turns to strike the other's nut until it shatters. Players from around the world enter the tournament, competing in a knock-out format in both team and individual formats, with titles for men's, women's and youth categories. Up to 5,000 spectators watch around 400 players participating. from many countries, including Australia, Austria, Canada, France, Japan, Mexico, New Zealand, Poland, Russia, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Ukraine, the United States and the United Kingdom.

The 2023 event was held on Sunday 8th October 2023.

WCC History
The World Conker Championships began in 1965 when a group of anglers in Ashton held a conker contest at the Chequered Skipper public house because the weather was too bad to go fishing. At the event, a small collection was made for charity, by a person with a blind relative. Since then the event has raised over £420,000 for charities supporting the visually impaired and at least £2,500 is donated yearly. The event was held in Ashton for 45 years before moving to a larger venue at the Shuckburgh Arms in Southwick, Northamptonshire in 2009.

The tournament has been threatened with conker shortages over the years, in 1976 conkers used in the tournament had to be flown in from Jersey, in 1980 freak spring weather was one of the factors that threatened the World Conker Championships causing a conker shortage, and in 1982 a late frost killed off the horse chestnut blossom resulting in a failed conker harvest. On 6 October 2011, organisers were forced to cancel the event over safety fears with high winds being forecasted. In 2012, the championships were cancelled again when a suitable venue couldn't be found in time.

Concerns for the future of the event were voiced over the horse-chestnut leaf miner moth, Cameraria ohridella, which has appeared in the region and could have a detrimental effect on the UK's horse chestnut population affecting conker yields.

On 9 October 2017, Chelsea pensioner John Riley won the men's tournament at the age of 85, quite possibly making him the oldest world champion on the planet.

In 2022, Fee Aylmore won the women's event after 30 years of trying.

WCC Rules
Players' Rules of Engagement for the Noble Game of Conkers as follows:
 * 1) Prior to the game, over 2,000 conkers (horse chestnuts) of the required 1.25-inch (30 mm) width are collected, drilled and strung ready by tournament officials. All conkers and laces are supplied by the World Conker Championships.
 * 2) Conkers are drawn ‘blind’ from a bag, and players may reject up to three selected conkers.
 * 3) Each game will commence with a toss of a coin, the winner of the toss may elect to strike or receive.
 * 4) A distance of no less than 8" or 20 cm of lace must be between knuckle and nut.
 * 5) Each player then takes three alternate strikes at the opponent's conker.
 * 6) Each attempted strike must be clearly aimed at the nut, no deliberate miss hits.
 * 7) The game will be decided once one of the conkers is smashed.
 * 8) A small piece of nut or skin remaining (less than a third) shall be judged out, it must be enough to mount an attack.
 * 9) If both nuts smash at the same time then the match shall be replayed.
 * 10) Any nut being knocked from the lace but not smashing may be re threaded and the game continued.
 * 11) A player causing a knotting of the laces (a snag) will be noted, three snags will lead to disqualification.
 * 12) If a game lasts for more than five minutes then play will halt and the "5-minute rule" will come into effect. Each player will be allowed up to nine further strikes at their opponent's nut, again alternating three strikes each. If neither conker has been smashed at the end of the nine strikes then the player who strikes the nut the most times during this period will be judged the winner. If this is equal, then play continues, one strike each in turn, until one player hits and the other misses.

WCC Results History
All players are British except where indicated with a national flag icon.

WCC Roll of Honour
Shown in alphabetical order by surname in the event of a tie.

WCC Video History from 1974 to 2021

 * 2021 World Conker Championship courtesy of Britclip
 * 2017 World Conker Championship by thevideoclipplace on Youtube
 * 2016 World Conker Championship by BBC Northampton on Youtube
 * 2015 World Conker Championship by Trans World Sport on Youtube
 * 2014 World Conker Championship courtesy of Youtube
 * 2010 World Conker Championship by Ben Moseby
 * 1974 World Conker Championship by ITV on Youtube

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: World Conker Championships


text: Category:French squash players

title: Category:French squash players


text: Category:Squash players by nationality

title: Category:Squash players by nationality


text:
Korea Football Association

The Korea Football Association is the governing body of football and futsal within South Korea. It sanctions professional, semi-professional and amateur football in South Korea. Founded in 1933, the governing body became affiliated with FIFA twenty years later in 1948, and the Asian Football Confederation in 1954.

History
In 1921, the first All Joseon Football Tournament was held, and in 1933, the Korea Football Association was organized (following the foundation of Joseon Referees' Association in 1928), which created a foundation to disseminate and develop the sport. Park Seung-bin was the first president of the KFA, charged with the task of promoting and spreading organised football in Korea.

The Korea Football Association was reinstated in 1948, following the establishment of the Republic of Korea. The KFA became a member of FIFA, the international football governing body that same year. It later joined the AFC (Asian Football Confederation) in 1954.

The KFA tried to give pardons to 100 people formerly employed in football including 48 match-fixing participants on 28 March 2023, but cancelled the pardons after facing objections of fans and journalists for three days.

Members

 * President: Chung Mong-gyu
 * Vice-presidents: Kim Jeong-bae, Han Joon-hee, Chang Woe-ryong, Won Young-shin, Ha Seok-ju, Choi Young-il, Lee Seok-jae
 * Heads of departments: Jung Hae-seong (competition), Michael Müller (development), Lee Lim-saeng (technical), So Jin (fairness), Seo Dong-won (medical), Lee Yoon-nam (ethics), Kim Tae-young (social), Lee Jung-min (referee)
 * Treasurers: Lee Tae-ho
 * Administrative inspector: Son Ho-young

Presidents
Shin Ki-jun was the president of the Joseon Referees' Association, but he is not officially recognised as the first president.

National teams
Source:

Men's teams

 * South Korea national football team
 * South Korea national under-23 football team
 * South Korea national under-20 football team
 * South Korea national under-17 football team
 * South Korea national under-14 football team
 * South Korea national football B team (student)
 * South Korea national futsal team

Women's teams

 * South Korea women's national football team
 * South Korea women's national under-20 football team
 * South Korea women's national under-17 football team
 * South Korea women's national under-14 football team
 * South Korea women's national student football team

Defunct team

 * South Korea national beach soccer team

Defunct competitions

 * All Joseon Football Tournament: National cup held from 1938 to 1940. (1921–1937 editions were held by Joseon Sports Council.)
 * Korean National Football Championship: National cup held from 1946 to 2000.
 * Korean President's Cup: Cup competition contested between semi-professional and amateur clubs from 1952 to 2009.
 * Korea Cup: International competition annually held from 1971 to 1999.
 * K League: Professional league held from 1983 to 1994. (Subsequent seasons were held by K League Federation.)

Current awards

 * Player of the Year
 * Young Player of the Year
 * Coach of the Year
 * Goal of the Year
 * Referee of the Year
 * Club of the Year

Defunct awards

 * Best XI
 * Hall of Fame

title: Korea Football Association


text: User talk:84.122.194.246

title: User talk:84.122.194.246


text:
Introspection Rundown

The Introspection Rundown is a controversial Church of Scientology auditing process that is intended to handle a psychotic episode or complete mental breakdown. Introspection is defined for the purpose of this rundown as a condition where the person is "looking into one's own mind, feelings, reactions, etc." The result is "the person extroverted, no longer looking inward worriedly continuously without end."

The Introspection Rundown came under public scrutiny after the death of Lisa McPherson in 1995. The rundown was created by L. Ron Hubbard, founder of Scientology, and released 24 January 1974.

Overview
In Scientology, a rundown is a procedure set out as a series of steps to produce a particular result, or phenomenon. Hubbard outlined the Introspection Rundown in three technical bulletins.

The first step of the Introspection Rundown is "isolate the person wholly with all attendants completely muzzled (no speech)." Auditing sessions are given frequently, otherwise the person is not spoken to.

To determine the end of isolation the supervisor in charge case of the person being isolated tests the person's condition by writing a note, such as "Dear Joe. What can you guarantee me if you are let out of isolation?" If Joe's answer shows continued irresponsibility, the supervisor must write back something along the lines of, "Dear Joe. I'm sorry but it is no go on coming out of isolation yet," including the reasons of why not. When it is obvious the person is out of his psychosis and up to the responsibility of living with others his isolation is ended.

To administer this rundown a Scientologist requires an education in Scientology beliefs and practices (which are dubbed "technologies" by the Church). This education includes all of the technical bulletins (17 large volumes), all of the many Scientology books, and hundreds of hours of recorded lectures, all of which must have proficiency in them demonstrated step by step.

The technical bulletin goes on: “This Rundown is very simple but cannot be flubbed, as that will compound the errors and cause further introspection in the pc". It "is very precise and even touchy business. There must be no mistakes and you cannot be heavy-handed on them."

Hubbard declared about the Introspection Rundown: "This means the last reason to have psychiatry around is gone", because "I have made a technical breakthrough which possibly ranks with the major discoveries of the Twentieth Century."

Lisa McPherson controversy
Scientology adherent Lisa McPherson had a car accident in Clearwater, Florida on 18 November 1995, while studying at Scientology headquarters. She disrobed by the side of the road, in front of the paramedics who were there for a routine traffic accident report. She was taken to a hospital for a psychiatric evaluation, but some Scientologists arrived and stated that McPherson did not believe in psychiatry, and she checked out after a short evaluation and left with the Scientologists.

McPherson was put on the Introspection Rundown after her accident on 18 November. It was her second time on the rundown, her first time having been in June. Her appearance after death was that of someone who had been denied water and food for quite some time, being both underweight and severely dehydrated. Additionally, her skin was covered with over a hundred insect bites, presumably from cockroaches. She was locked in a room for 17 days. The Church has repeatedly denied any wrongdoing, and now makes members sign a waiver before Introspection Rundown specifically stating that they (or anyone on their behalf) will not bring any legal action against the organization over injury or death.

title: Introspection Rundown


text:
Talk:Cocteau Twins

Old peer review
I kept most things from the old article intact, only removed the 'year in music' links.. I thought they really cluttered the text up, while every 'year' article has links to 'year in music' in it. - Jashiin — Preceding undated comment added 13:31, 10 October 2004 (UTC)

My Bloody Valentine influenced by CT?
Do My Bloody Valentine say they were influenced by the Cocteau Twins or is that just the opinion of the editor? I find it hard to credit because for all that the Cocteau Twins are a great band, MBV so are not influenced by them that it hurts. I'm not even going to start on whether they are "shoegazers".Dr Zen 05:29, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * I agree that this statement should be removed until a specific quotation by Shields can be found. Still, the Twins can be seen as prototypical of shoegazing, and Guthrie went on to produce two recordings by Lush.

 * Thanks for your comment. Prototypical? Hmmm. Precursors, maybe. The family connection is there. But I'm not sure about MBV as shoegazers. Lush, only their early stuff. They became much more pop as they chased fame. Dr Zen 06:13, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure why you're so reluctant to admit CT influence on MBV - because, well, while Loveless certainly doesn't sound anything like CT and relies on different things, MBV's Isn't Anything and their earlier recordings have shoegazing/CT influence everywhere around. CT had a number of 'rough' songs/EPs (the 1985 Aikea-Guinea EP, for instance) that, when compared to MBV's songs like Cupid Come or Sundaysundaesmile, show lots of similarities.. well, only in my eyes maybe? Anyway, while I haven't found any direct evidence in Shields'/MBV interviews, Shields still talks about CT and admits he likes them (lists CT as one of his favorite bands 1 while commenting about song lyrics), and that his approach is the same:

 * Interviewer: Geez, wouldn't it have been quicker just to hook up a CryBaby? If you're Kevin Shields, probably not. There's more than a touch of the Cocteau Twins' Robin Guthrie in Kevin's studio obsessiveness. "In attitude toward sound, yes," Kev allows. "But not in approach."  (...) I think Robin Guthrie is quite good, by the way 2

 * So.. I think the notice should stay there, given the general similarities of style (which are inpenetrable guitar riffs, use of effects as instruments, experimentation with traditional structure and indecipherable vocals), and that CT were actual precursors to the whole shoegazing movement. -- Jashiin 09:06, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You've just given a quote yourself that says exactly that "in attitude to sound" Shields shared characteristics with Guthrie, but not "in approach"! IOW, they liked to fiddle in the studio but made different music. "I think he's quite good" does not mean "I was influenced by him"!Dr Zen 22:53, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Uh.. "there's more than a touch of Robin Guthrie - in attitude towards sound, yes (there is more than Robin Guthrie here), .. but not in approach (ie here its not more than him, its the same)." At least thats the way I read it. Maybe my English isn't good enough, okay, but what about all the other things I wrote? I still maintain it that if you compare early MBV songs and CT of early 80s, you get lots of similarities. -- Jashiin 08:39, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

If you listen to the Cocteau Twins EP Aikea-Guinea, dated from 1985, you will find in "Rocococ," the instrumental track which closes the EP, the entire blueprint for the sound of Loveless, which wouldn't come out until 1991.

 * Sampled live drums, sequenced parts, the combination of delay and pitch bending, complex vocal melodies and unintelligible lyrics are just some of the similarities between the Cocteau's Treasure and MBV's Loveless. Of course Kevin Shields would never admit to such an influence...
 * 62.77.181.13 (talk) 12:54, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Victorialand stub
FYI: Created and heavily stubbed the Victorialand page, you may want to check/add. ←#6 talk 19:33, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The current photo
I heavily doubt that this promotional picture can be offered under the GFDL. Can someone vouch that the photographer has released it to Wikipedia? Crculver 02:56, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Drum Machines, Tapes and Rhythms
This page desperately needs to mention that the Cocteau twins were pioneering in their usage of drum machines and backing tapes. They actually used a four track system on the road to create 'that' sound. Also Guthrie was one of the first people to use the Ebow and made popular the use of the Fender Jaguar and Fender Jazzmaster guitars. If I can find sources I'll add this info.

You might also want go back and listen to some Bill Nelson and Be-Bop Deluxe. "One of the first people" - jeez....you kids....

"The"
The band is "Cocteau Twins," not "The Cocteau Twins" (cf. the official site). However, the members of the band collectively seem to be referred to as "The Coctau Twins." Please keep this in mind when editing. Intelligence3 15:44, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Weren't they "members of Cocteau Twins" instead? --tranquileye (talk) 20:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

ELIZABETH FRASER'S NEW ALBUM SPRING 2007
When I heard that Elizabeth Fraser was FINALLY producing something new, I honestly couldn't contain my exitement. That exitement was short-lived. Disappointing is not a good enough word to describe my feelings for this lame mid-90's-sounding-background-rave-club-can only enjoy if you are tripping on X-waste of time. The new track "Underwater" not only sucks so bad I want to cry, but it droans on tauntingly for over 9 minutes. I never write on these forums but I just couldn't contain myself. Do any other devout Cocteau Twins/Elizabeth Fraser fans feel similar? I just have to know. I just can't believe that I have waited ten years to hear this crap!!! Elizabeth, please, if you can't produce something tolerable, preserve your memory and hang it up (and I was willing to forget about the bizarre, in a bad way, rendition of "Frosty the Snowman").76.18.51.254 12:24, 24 February 2007 (UTC) K —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.18.51.254 (talk) 12:21, 24 February 2007 (UTC).

This is not a fan forum. --tranquileye (talk) 20:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Podcast not from band?
Is there any indication that the podcast mentioned at the end of the article is actually from the band? It seems to be a fan-generated project. --tranquileye (talk) 20:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Dreampop?
I never heard that term before. From 1982 til 1983, the Cocteau Twins played Goth/Post-punk in the veins of Joy Division and Siouxsie & The Banshees. „Garlands“, „Lullabies“ und „Peppermint Pig“ are Goth works par excellence. From 1983 til 1985 the band created a more 'ethereal' sound that was a strong influence on the later Ethereal movement, a part of the Darkwave culture, with bands such as This Ascension, Lycia, Love Spirals Downwards and other groups. In 1986, Victorialand was released. With Victorialand, the band started a new style... pop-oriented and catchy (Dreampop?). They never returned to their dark, goth-like Ethereal style. And all the sinister guitar sounds and The-Cure-like bass guitar lines disappeared. --Ada Kataki (talk) 01:08, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Cocteau Twins were certainly known as a dreampop band in the later eighties, and also as shoegazers. "Dreampop" doesn't mean pop orientated, it means music that is more abstract and dream-like than mainstream pop - I'd cite Tiny Dynamine or Blue Bell Knoll as examples. I disagree that they became more "straight" pop orientated with Victorialand - that happened later from "Heaven or Las Vegas" onwards.Burtonales (talk) 13:25, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

 * Dreampop wasn't even used in the later 80s, except for A.R. Kane. I removed shoegaze from the infobox. Nobody called the Cocteau Twins "shoegazing" back in the '80s or early '90s. They're possibly a forerunner of the genre, but not a part of it. This revisionist shit has to stop.

Release Dates
I've added release dates, however I have a couple of conflicts. I haven't amended the details on the main page, but I have "Garlands" listed as released May 1982, not September; "Head over Heels" as September 1983, not October; and "Heaven or Las Vegas" as 17 September 1990, not August 28 (I have that as the release of the single "Iceblink Luck" which I'm sure was a few weeks before. Any verification would be welcome! Burtonales (talk) 13:14, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Complex?
"known for complex instrumentation"

Really? Where is this referenced from? Quite frankly, their instrumentation can be quite rudimentary, with simply a drum machine and a guitar. "Complex instrumentation" would imply multiple musicians and more than several instruments, such as a classical music group.

Deepcloud (talk) 07:18, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. Down with the complex!

-Daniel

Genre wars
We need to simplify and reference the genre field in the infobox. Any takers? --John (talk) 19:39, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Yup, me too. The genre field is not meant to list out years and stuff. I'm reverting it.—indopug (talk) 17:45, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I would have preferred to discuss this for a bit before getting right back to reverting. Anyhow, was the genre information incorrect? It's obviously more conventional to only have a list, but assuming that that sub-sectioning by years was verifiable, I'd found it preferable. The infobox is empty enough to so that it doesn't, in my opinion, clutter it. Amalthea  18:32, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The genre field has now been expanded a bit, I'd very much appreciate if we could discuss this here and people would hold off reverting for a while. Amalthea  14:58, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I've protected the article now for a week. Let's come to some kind of agreement until then. Amalthea  18:53, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

If the band were so obviously "Gothic rock", then why is the only place that is mentioned in the infobox? Ditto on "Ethereal wave," whatever that is. Instead of just mentioning these genres in the infobox and then edit-waring over them there, shouldn't there be some content about these genres added to the body of the article, before they get added to the infobox? -- Foetusized (talk) 16:45, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * As you say, that might be a shortcoming of the article. Also, ethereal wave was already in it, the additional ones are gothic rock and ambient music. Albums Garlands, Head over Heels, Treasure, Lullabies, Peppermint Pig, Sunburst and Snowblind name gothic rock among their genres, while album Victorialand names ambient. Amalthea  17:03, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The ethereal wave article seems pretty light, and includes an undiscussed proposal that it merge with dream pop. The fact that it was already in this article doesn't mean it needs to stick around.  Including The Cocteau Twins in a marginal article like ethereal wave seems more important to the folks trying to make the case for the "genre" than mentioning it in this article helps define the music of The Cocteau Twins.  I think that when I first started editing this article it just had dream pop in the infobox.
 * The article lede states "the Cocteau Twins tended to defy concise categorisation, and their music was a key influence on dream pop." I guess this whole disagreement stems from this defiance.  Personally, I'd say that only their first album, with the clattering drum machine sound, would somehow fit under "goff"; by Treasure their music had changed to something different.  I do think that trying to set date ranges to when they were producing music of different genres is problematic.
 * I'd be fine with just the general post punk and the specific dream pop in the infobox. -- Foetusized (talk) 20:53, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I want to state that my last revert on the article was an error and that I was about to self-revert when the IP beat me to it. Having said that, I tend to agree with Foetusized's points above. Genres are a very tricky field; I think we should definitely have a well-referenced mention in article text before it goes in the infobox. --John (talk) 01:58, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

 * The Ethereal article has been manipulated by Wesley Dodds (it's not the first time). The size of the article has nothing to do with reliability. Ethereal is only a small genre, a kind of Dark Wave music that blends the darkness of early Gothic Rock with ethereal vocals and space guitars (reverb, echo, delay) in connection with deep & dark bass guitar lines (typical for Goth). Try this. The guitar sound is too dark for Dreampop. Dreampop is light pop + space guitars. Compare it with Cocteau Twins' „Victorialand“ era. Their early tracks, such „Five Ten Fiftyfold“ or „The Spangle Maker“ (listen to their bass guitar!!!), are much darker than their later tracks. Use headphones!

 * Cocteau Twins' Goth era:
 * Perhaps Some Other Aeon (Goth guitar + Goth bass)
 * Grail Overfloweth (Goth guitar + Goth bass)
 * But I'm Not (Goth guitar + Goth bass)

 * Cocteau Twins' Ethereal era:
 * Five Ten Fiftyfold (Ethereal guitar + Goth bass)
 * Pink Orange Red (Goth bass lines in the veins of Cure & Siouxsie)
 * Great Spangled Fritillary (Ethereal guitar, Goth guitar and Goth bass (@ 02:55), later used by groups such as Lycia)

 * Cocteau Twins' Ethereal/Dreampop era (started in 1984/85):
 * Ribbed and Veined (a really interesting track: the first guitar ist typical for Dreampop and Ethereal, the second guitar @ 00:43 is typical for Ethereal and Goth, and the bass guitar line is typical for Goth)

 * Cocteau Twins' Dreampop era:
 * Heaven or Las Vegas (it's light and dreamy, and more alternative pop music)
 * Evangeline (here the same, it's like summer day surf music)
 * Bluebeard (typical Pop... Dreampop with a twangy surf guitar sound)

 * Dreampop and Ethereal Dark Wave are definitely different genres. Ethereal has been strongly influenced by Goth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.28.99 (talk) 17:31, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

 * That's all way too complicated and specific. Per the template instructions at Template:Infobox_musical_artist we are supposed to "Aim for generality (e.g. Hip hop rather than East Coast hip hop)."
 * I stand by my contention that post-punk and dream pop are probably enough, without delving into all this detail -- Foetusized (talk) 02:40, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

 * East Coast Hip Hop is Hip Hop. But Ethereal or Goth is not Dreampop. WTF is the problem with 4 genre terms in the infobox? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.26.123 (talk) 11:05, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

 * Ethereal Wave and Goth are both part of post-punk. My problem with them in the infobox is that they still are not mentioned in the band's article.  Add some content to the article about CT's relationship with these sub-genres (something cited, and not like the original research posted above), and I'd have much less of a problem with them.  As the rest of the article now stands, they really ought to be removed -- Foetusized (talk) 03:35, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

 * Ethereal is not a part of Post-Punk. It's an Goth outgrowth. It's "Post-Post-Punk". Furthermore the band article contains their influences: Joy Division, The Birthday Party and Siouxsie & The Banshees. All three groups were originators of the Gothrock movement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.4.174 (talk) 17:30, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

 * There's a difference in their music being influenced by Goth and being Goth. Why are you so resistant to the suggestion that perhaps some content about Goth be added to the article? -- Foetusized (talk) 01:05, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

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All non-free listening examples must have a description of what is being heard, per WP:NFCCP rule number 8. Right now, the article has a sample of "Spangle Maker" but it does not satisfy the rule with just a name of the song. It needs "contextual significance", usually satisfied by telling the reader what to listen for in the way of musical style or instrumentation or production. Binksternet (talk) 13:26, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

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2020-2022 Updates
Robin Guthrie has released an album and three EPs in the past year -- I added those along with Another Flower by Robin and Harold Budd, and updated languages to reflect the new pieces. Cheers. Johnathanzen (talk) 02:14, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Adding Bass to Robin Guthrie's Roles
Would this edit be fine? Robin himself has stated that he's played bass when necessary, with Head over Heels and Sunburst & Snowblind being examples of such. WikiUser426 (talk) 21:16, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Equitable Futures - Internet Cultures and Open Access
— Assignment last updated by WikiEdit7205 (talk) 19:09, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Cocteau Twins


text:
Chris Bangle

Christopher Edward Bangle (born October 14, 1956) is an American automobile designer. Bangle is known best for his work as Chief of Design for BMW Group, where he was responsible for the BMW, MINI and Rolls-Royce motor cars.

Early life
Bangle was born in Ravenna, Ohio, and raised in Wausau, Wisconsin. After considering becoming a Methodist minister, Bangle attended the Art Center College of Design in Pasadena, California, earning a Bachelor of Science degree.

Opel
Bangle started his career at Opel in Germany, where he worked from 1981 until 1985. The first work that he designed is the interior of the Opel Junior concept car.

Fiat
He moved to Fiat in Italy in 1985, to work on the second generation Fiat Panda (released 2003). From 1990 he worked as a chief designer of the Fiat Coupé (released 1993). Still in Centro Stile Fiat he designed Alfa Romeo 145.

BMW
He became the first American chief of design of BMW on October 1, 1992, where he designed the Z9 Gran Turismo concept car.

Bangle's designs are incorporated in the entire BMW lineup, including the BMW Z4, 1, 3, 5, 6 and 7 series as well as the X3, X5, and X6 the newest design SUVs, and the concept car Gina. These span the automotive platforms E81 / E82 / E87 / E88, E90 / E91 / E92 / E93, E60 / E61, E63 / E64, E65 / E66 and E53. During the Bangle era, BMW overtook Mercedes as the global leader in premium car sales, despite Bangle's controversial design language.

He introduced a new BMW concept car, called GINA on June 10, 2008.

On February 3, 2009, Bangle announced that he was to quit both his position at BMW and the auto industry altogether, to focus on his own design-related endeavours. He was replaced by Adrian van Hooydonk.

Post-BMW
Bangle now works for his own firm called Bangle and Associates based in Clavesana, Italy.

In 2012, Bangle was hired by Samsung.

Design philosophy
His styling themes have generated intense controversy among automotive designers, and have had a polarizing effect with respect to their visual cues. Bangle acknowledges that his designs do not look good in photographs, suggesting to critics that they should see the cars in real life before judging them on their looks. Bangle himself did not (as is commonly believed) coin the phrase "flame surfacing" to describe his work; this can be attributed to a motoring journalist, and is probably the first time Deconstructivism has been adapted to automotive design. The reason for this design was to use BMW's new technology of 3D panel pressing allowing a single press for compound curves, which had previously needed multiple pressings unless the panel was shaped by hand. This is further evidenced by the fact that Bangle has often pointed out architect Frank Gehry's work as a major influence.

Arguably the most controversial of Bangle and van Hooydonk's work was the E65 7 Series, a sharp contrast to the preceding E38 generation which was conservatively styled. In fact, van Hooydonk's original 1998 sketch for the E65 was a much more radical sleek fastback, but ending up the final design was toned down considerably to a more conventional three-box sedan. Time magazine named the E65 as one of the 50 Worst Cars of All Time for its rear end styling and iDrive functionality, while there were several online petitions pressing BMW to sack Bangle. While the sales for the 2002 and 2003 models years were off 60% from the 2001, the E65 7 series became the best-selling 7 Series of all time.

Bangle aggressively defended his designs against criticism. He was supported by the BMW board of directors, who wanted to move BMW's image into the future. He said it was necessary for product lines to follow a cycle of a revolutionary generation followed by an evolutionary generation followed by another revolutionary generation and so on. Indeed, he oversaw the conservative evolution of BMW designs with the redesign of the BMW 3 Series and the introduction of the BMW X5. For Bangle this marked the end of the evolution of BMW design and the revolution was witnessed with the 2002 introduction of the BMW E65.

Peer comments

 * J Mays, Ford's chief creative officer, dislikes Bangle's designs, but admits Bangle has been significant in reshaping modern cars.
 * Marc Newson, an industrial designer and car enthusiast, described Bangle's BMW Z4 (E85) as having been designed with a machete.
 * Patrick le Quément, chief designer at Renault, said: "[Bangle is] certainly the most talked about designer. His designs have a great deal of presence, and they're well proportioned. He's been highly influential. My only concern is his use of concave surfaces: they're hollow shapes and lack that tightly muscled look I feel helps design."
 * Martin Smith, head of design for Ford of Europe, describes Bangle as an instigator of the trend toward "surface entertainment" in cars; the Ford Iosis bears some resemblance to Bangle-styled BMWs but it was not criticized as much as Bangle's designs.
 * Klaus Draeger, BMW AG's Board Member for Development, said: "Christopher Bangle has had a lasting impact on the identity of BMW Group's brands. His contribution to the company's success has been decisive, and together with his teams he has mapped out a clear and aesthetic route into the future,"
 * Robert Cumberford, former GM designer and Design Editor for Automobile, wrote in 2004 that Bangle is "a man with the courage of his convictions and of solid character, and he is worthy of our admiration for that alone."

title: Chris Bangle


text:
Talk:Kigo

Early questions re translation
Even for something so short, I have pretty of questions and disagreements about this stub, so I will probably be doing some editing of the page in the near future. My problems with the page include:

1) Senryu did NOT derive from seasonless (muki) or miscellaneous (zō) haiku. The very short answer is that haiku and senryu both derive from haikai-no-renga, not senryu from haiku.

2) A collection of kigo (season words) is a kiyose. A collection of kigo along with commentary on the kigo and example haiku is a saijiki.

3) Kigo translates as "season word", but it can be either a word (e.g. 'snowmelt' is a Spring kigo), or a phrase (e.g. 'cranberry raking' is an Autumn kigo).

4) In my opinion, "a proper haiku must use a kigo" is not a neutral POV (my problem is the "must"). I will concede that it is the majority opinion in Japan and maybe even among English-language haiku poets. I'd probably rephrase that as either "a traditional Japanese haiku should include a kigo" or "a classic Japanese haiku should include a kigo". Although English haiku are more likely to use seasonless topics (e.g. pigeon) or even be kigo-less, even modern japanese haiku can be use seasonless topics or be kigo-less (see Makoto Ueda's Modern Japanese Haiku: An Anthology, University of Toronto Press, ISBN 0-8020-2147-6 hardback ISBN 0-8020-6245-8 paperback) and especially many of the free-verse haiku of Taneda Santōka. Refering to the work of Japanese scholars, William Higgonson in his The Haiku Seasons ( Kodansha International © 1996 ISBN 4-7700-1629-8) said that Shiki wrote a few hundred haiku that are classified as zō (miscellaneous), and even Bashō wrote around ten as zō.

5) The link to a missing Wikipedia "List of kigo" webpage should probably be removed because I will be adding links to a number of good lists of kigo that already exist on the internet. There should, however, be a small list of example kigo included with this article.

gK 13:35, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC) revised 11:10, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * First of all, I translated this article from Japanese Wikipedia and its shortcomings is, not entirely my fault.

 * 1)This is from Japanese Wikipedia and I do believe senryu is preceded by haiku. Haiku was originally from the Hokku of Renga and both had a kigo.  Senryu, however was used a bit later by when a man named Karai Senryu from whom the word senryu was taken became famous for releasing a poem collection in 1811.  Before that, it was called Kyoku, lit. crazy verse and the first use of the word kyoku is in 1349 as the word for a poem written without a rule.

 * 2)This is a straight translation and I can neither confirm nor deny it.

 * 3)I believe you are referring to Momijigari lit. red leaves gathering, and it happens to be a single word in Japanese language, so the problem is a translational one. However, I do believe 'a phrase or a word' is more reasonable as it does not alienate both examples.

 * 4)The difference between a haiku and a senryu is the inclusion of a kigo and a senryu started by not including a kigo in the first place. It is true that the word haiku is used as a collective term for a poem with 5-7-5, but the original definition of haiku is that it has a kigo and those without kigo are a varient of this rule.  It's like this.
 * Haiku
 * Zou, Muki Haiku (see also Senryu)
 * Their is also a difference between a English haiku and a Japanese haiku. Even without a kigo, haiku are distinct from senryu in a sense that its topics are often seasonal and does not overlap with senryu's topics which tend to be about social issues.  However, most English haiku merely burrowed the format but did not follow haiku's rule of a use of a kigo.  The definition of haiku is simply different.  Free verse haiku were born after rules of haiku solidified and using an exception to define the rule is not a wise thing to do.

 * 5)Again, this is a straight translation and I intended to do a research on my own and left it as a blank link. The Japanese wiki article does have a list, but it is quite limited and I did not think that it merited a translation.Revth 13:21, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Greetings. There is much debate as to what is haiku, most of which is due to the divergent Western style from the Japanese style and the confusion of which style is being defined. Except for a few exceptions (muki), JAPANESE haiku have kigo. The Japanese culture has a much greater affinity and emphasis on the seasons than the West does. When the West adopted haiku, their interpretation of Japanese translated haiku was that they were about nature in general instead of about seasons in specific. Being that many Japanese kigo are too subtle by Western standards, Western readings of JAPANESE haiku usually missed the seasonal association. So WESTERN haiku are free form in that they don't require kigo and although the WESTERN haiku were once required to be about nature instead (which often had kigo incidentally) they don't anymore and now the focus is placed on the topics being chaste. However, if you intend to use a definition that WESTERN haiku require a kigo then may I suggest labeling the haiku a style of haiku such as neo-classical haiku. I wouldn't recommend the terms classical or traditional which might also suggest the 5-7-5 form. Although Western haiku originally had a syllabic form of 5-7-5 most are now written in free verse.

The article speaks that kigo are culture/region specific and uses pumpkins for an example but than goes to describe Japanese seasons in detail. I don't sense a clear distinction between Japanese and other region's kigo.

In the West the 'harvest' moon or 'autumn' moon is an autumn kigo but not the moon in general, while depending on adjectives and phrasing it is actually a kigo used in all four seasons by the Japanese.

Although the article is very informative and clear for the most part, I would like to see it clarify when it is speaking of Japanese haiku/kigo or some other region's.

Michael Baribeau May 6, 2005 .

Responses

 * Revth: I appreciate your efforts in translating the Japanese article. It gives me a good start to work with.

 * From the resources that I have, both haiku and senryu came from haikai no renga, or the more humerous, playful version of renga. The precedents for haiku are the hokku or opening verse of the renga, and the precendents for the senryu were the often more human interior verses of the renga. What became senryu actually started during Basho's lifetime as a parlor game involving maekutsuke or capping verses. It wasn't until the 1800's when this game became more popular and Karai Senryu was the most popular editor/selector (marker or tenja) of the winning verses, that they were called senryu.

 * I don't have kyoku in any of my references, but there I do have 'kyōka', which were the humerous counterpart to waka, and have been around since the time of the Manyoshu. 'Hyakushu Kyōka' (Comic Verses on a Hundred Kinds of Liquor) was complied in the fourteenth century.

 * There have been haiku with seasonless topic words since Basho (although very, very few), and kigo can easily be found in senryu (Ueda's Light 'Verse From the Floating World' has an entire chapter of seasonal senryu). What used to be a more reliable marker is that haiku were composed almost exclusively by aristocrats and monks, and senryu were composed by tradesmen and merchants. The best divider today between the two is probably overall tone and subject matter. If it humorous or mostly about humans and especially human nature, it is probably a senryu. If it is mostly about the seasons or has a subdued tone, then it is probably a haiku.

 * Just being about humans or social issues doesn't preclude a poem from being haiku. I have been told that roughly 40% of the topics in one of the major Japanese saijiki involved humans, including all of the different holidays, like the Bon Festival, to topics like sun-bathing, New Year's resolutions, mushroom gathering, beach-coming, etc. gK 15:21, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I like haiku but I don`t know much about the history. However, I would think the Tanabata and Bon  festival paragraph belongs in summer rather than autumn? Andycjp 14/4/2005

To Do List Answers

 * 1) . A saijiki is a reference book. Some of them are small enough that you could take them with you on a ginko (haiku walk). Others are the size of a large dictionary.
 * 2) .For examples, the comments under "Common kigo" are sort of an abbreviated version of what might be found in a saijiki, with the only thing missing being the example haiku.
 * 3) .Images of particular haiku poets, such Matsuo Basho would be appropriate for their own articles, but irrelavant for the Kigo article. It would be nice to find a picture of full tree in bloom, like the "D.C. Tidal Basin showing cherry trees in flower" photo in the Cherry article (which desperately needs to have the photo spacing fixed so that it doesn't have overlapping photos when looked at at 800x600 screen resolution). A nice photo of Autumn leaves might be a welcome addition, as well as a photo of the full moon. I'm not sure about the Nashi Pear photo with the bite out of one of them.

Thanks:

 * 1) Saijiki section covers all this. I removed from todo list.
 * 2) Some example haiku or renga is what I had in mind.
 * 3) Yoy're right about the poet images. I have replaced the Nashi photo, which I have replaced with the cicada. Would it be ok to use the D.C. tidal basin cherry tree and just change the caption? Filiocht 12:03, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)

Nashi Pear -> Fruit Edit
Filiocht: The Japanese have a number of defaults, such as Blossoms=Cherry Blossoms, and Moon=Autumn Moon. "Fruit" however, does not have a default, but has to be specified as to the type of fruit, which could be a summer fruit (such as cherries, raspberries, watermelon, etc.) or it could be an autumn fruit like the nashi pear or the other fruits that I mentioned after the nashi pear. Basically what I'm saying is that your fruit edit doesn't work under the category of "Common kigo" because "fruit" by itself can't be a kigo.

 * Sorry. Is my revision better? Filiocht 12:37, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)

 * To be honest, although the various winter fruit are used as kigo, they are not really that common. Originally I had just the Nashi Pear listed because I wanted to point to an already existing Wikipedia article that included some of the sorts of information that a saijiki might have on Nashi Pears. I later added the other fruit to fill out that entry, but I was mostly hoping that readers would follow the link to Nashi pears. In other words, your current revision is much better than the previous fruit one, but I prefer the original. On the other hand, because they aren't that common as kigo, I had been debating about removing that entry completely.

Examples
The one thing that I think the Kigo article is currently missing are a short "Kigo and haiku" and short "Kigo and renga" section. The haiku section could mention the famous "frog" haiku of Matsuo Basho which is already translated in the haiku article, and point out that frogs are a spring kigo. A whole renga, even a short 36 stanza kasen renga would be way too long for the kigo article or even the renga article, but maybe a single stanza would be appropriate in the renga section. 12:19, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Sounds good. Filiocht 12:37, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)

 * I had a different idea for the "kigo and haiku" section, but I probably wouldn't get to it until sometime this weekend. Besides, that is one of the uncredited translations in the Wikipedia that has been bugging me. Unfortunately, the only public domain translation I've found (by Lafcadio Hearn) has "frogs jump in" -- ACK! gK 13:15, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

................................

Your LINKS

You could link your kigo examples to the ones in the Kigo Database, there is more kigo-related information than in the links you provide just now. Most of them are already here. Nashi is not a very common Japanese kigo. Reduce the samples to two or three of each season would be enough, I suggest for this introductory essay.

Check the seasonwords with explanations here http://worldkigodatabase.blogspot.com/

I also wrote an intro to the kigo database now here with some examples http://www.worldhaikureview.org/4-1/whcjapan-p2.htm

Gabi

Must have a kigo or not
It is an interesting topic, and necessary but the first paragraph seems to be confused for me a bit.

 * For classic pre-Meiji era haiku (before 1868), almost all haiku had a kigo. For example, Japanese experts have classified only about 10 of Matsuo Bashō's (1644-1694) haiku in the miscellaneous (zō) category (out of about one thousand haiku). Note, however, that most of the pre-Meiji poets such as Bashō were primarily haikai no renga poets (that is, they composed linked verse with other poets), so they wrote plenty of miscellaneous and love stanzas for the interior lines of a renga. Usually about half the stanzas in a renga do not reference a season. A little later Kobayashi Issa (1763-1828) (who wrote mostly haiku and not renga) wrote 109 haiku without season words (out of a total of roughly 20,000 haiku).

There might be a confusion; as far as I know
 * Haiku today is a developed form of hokku, the first line (or stanza) of a series of "haikai no renga".
 * And it must be seasonal - though Basho claimed sometimes it could be non-seasonal.
 * It is true, not all stanzas of haikai no renga should have a kigo, but it is a different topic if hokku, the first line should have a kigo.

And I think the quotation the above make a confusion on those points. -- Aphaea *  02:18, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

re:Must be seasonal: Unless you are going to say that, for example, much of what Taneda Santoka wrote was only zappai and not haiku (which is the way that many people feel), then this is not absolutely true. Blank Verse  ∅  02:42, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Sorry you seem to miss my point. Modern Haiku is not my topic. I meant the first stanza of Renku (Hokku) from which haiku would develop and other 7-5-7 stanzas were functioning differently, so usually we don't think the latter under the name of haiku and never hokku. And the argument in the middle Edo period and the modern dispute of Mukigo haiku (haiku without kigo) are irrelevant to each other, as far as I know. Even Basho made some hokku without kigo and he stated they were legitimate hokkus but those works are different from parts of renga which hasn't been estimated as an individual work. -- Aphaea *  22:05, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

........................................................

From Gabi

Kigo are the rule of Japanese haiku, not the exception. This should be made clear in a basic essay about kigo, I suggest.

WCH World Kigo Database

http://worldkigodatabase.blogspot.com/

WHC World Kigo Discussion Forum

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WHCworldkigo/

Well I meant I thought the sentence the below was a digression: those internal stanzas have no direct relation to haiku. It should be written in (or moved to) renga.

"Note, however, that most of the pre-Meiji poets such as Bashō were primarily haikai no renga poets (that is, they composed linked verse with other poets), so they wrote plenty of miscellaneous and love stanzas for the interior lines of a renga.

But I think we have to refer attempt haiku without kigo in Taisho era, too.

-- Aphaea *  10:53, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

Saijiki
Saijiki is a term with such Japanese-cultral/haiku-specific overtones that it seems a little odd to see examples such as "Dominion Day" and "siesta" listed. Seeing how a saijiki is essentially a collection of kigo anyway, it seems a little redundant to have a collection of kigo under Saijiki, especially when more follow immediately in the next section. It seems like the examples should be merged and categorized in a way similar to the article called 季語一覧 in the Japanese wikipedia. That said, it might be interesting to see what new "season words" have arisen in other cultures and languages with the spread of haiku. CES 14:21, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

 * I felt it strange "Dominion Day" is including this section. So I would like to clarify if this section treats saijiki in Japanese or saijiki in (English or other language) world. For the former I will be able to help a bit.
 * Siesta seems perhaps changed my addition "nap" and a brief sleeping in daytime, hirune is a legitimate kigo in Japanese tradition.
 * As for "List of Kigo" I doubt its feasibility. But I don't oppose if someone will care for it.
 * As for "new season words" we can refer "Nanpo-kigo" (Kigo in southern countries, that is, Osceania or Southeast Asia) or "Tairiku-kigo" (Continental Kigo, specially, Korea, China or Manchuria). Those attempts were made during the colonization period of Japan (until 1945), but I guess people would make similar atetmpt for localisation when they make haiku in a different country (and thus different nature and seasons) from Japan, still now. -- Aphaea  *  22:12, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Although Saijiki is a very haiku-specific term, there is now one very good introductory saijiki in Higginson's "Haiku World: An International Poetry Almanac". The book's title calls it a poetry almanac, but the introduction is "Introduction to the International Haikai Saijiki". Although probably not as comprehensive as many Japanese saijiki that he used as his model, it is 407 pages, covering 680 seasonal and nonseasonal topics. It's not the thousands of topics that might be in a comprehensive Japanese saijiki, but it is a very good introduction.

 * There is also a new book that I haven't seen yet that is specific to England: English Seasonal Images: An Almanac of Haiku Season Words Pertinent to England by David Cobb (see ). There is even a recent internet development, the WHC World Kigo Database (see ).

 * My personal opinion is that there has been a problem with English-language haiku in that the haiku poets haven't paid as much attention to kigo as they probably should have been. Without an English-language saijiki, however, they had an excuse. Since Higginson's book was published in 1996, the more conscientious English-language haiku poet should be much more aware of the importance of kigo in haiku. One of my hopes in working on this article in the Wikipedia is that the casual haiku poet who might more familiar with spam haiku than Issa's haiku, I can influence them to also be more mindful about using kigo in their haiku.

 * As for the multiple lists of kigo: For the list under the Saijiki section, I could have just listed the different sections that each season is divided into, but I had thought that it would be more informative to give some examples of the sort of kigo fit in to each section (using examples of both Japanese and International kigo). The next section is for typical Japanese kigo. I could have used the section divisions as well as season divisions there, but I wouldn't have been able to show all the different sections. If you can think of a better way to get these points across, I would like to hear them. I haven't been that happy with the way that I ended up organizing some of the information in this article, but I also couldn't think of any other way to get the information across without making the article much larger than it is.

 * As for a List of Kigo, the Japanese Wikipedia has one. I have thought about creating a separate article titled "List of Kigo" following something like the formatting that I did for the Japanse kigo, but I want to try to turn this article into a Featured Article first. Blank Verse   ∅   07:04, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

(A parenthetical note: this page has been improved a lot recently- nice work!- but the bolding looks a bit maniacal. Like reading William Blake. ;) Mark1 08:13, 5 May 2005 (UTC))

...........

Saijiki on various topics, for example

Saijiki for Buddhist Events

http://worldkigo2005.blogspot.com/2005/01/saijiki-of-buddhist-events.html ...

Chapter SAIJIKI here lists a lot more topical ones

http://worldkigodatabase.blogspot.com/2006/12/seasons-and-categories.html

Gabi.

Kigo - go or no go
I was a student of the late Fujita Akegarasu (1934 - 2004). Akegarasu sensei believed kigo is essential to the art of haiku. Kigo to the Japanese writer of haiku is part of the foundation of the poem. From my (non-Japanese studying Japanese haiku) view, what this means is a melding of feeling using the kigo as an anchor. I am not sure if "anchor" is the right word, perhaps, "catalyst" is better, in that, kigo, does not itself change, but, rather acts to help the reader feel the depth of the verse.

That is, the "heart" of the haiku. As has been mentioned earlier in previous discussions on haiku being from the beginning of a "renga" sequence, then, more stand-alone as Shiki sensei believed, it became haiku from the hokku. The hokku gives a strong hint as to what haiku should be. Hokku was the "greeting" to get the linked verse started. In this, hokku set the framework, season and setting for the group to continue. These aspects were retained in what became haiku. In fact, if you take the hokku by itself, you essentially have haiku.

This is still very valid in haiku of Japan today. If you want to confirm that assessment, just look at any collection of haiku from the proliferation of haiku circles (haiku writer groups) in Japan today. I would like to see the rest of the world adhere as closely as possible to this Japanese spirit when writing poems that represent the haiku art.

Retain both kigo and kireji in spirit and practice as essential components of any haiku. The techniques I currently feel sound are: developing a world saijiki; and using equivalent punctuation for the Japanese kireji. Also, there are many more reusable components such as kakekotoba (word play) that may cross the translation bridge between English and Japanese.

As with any literary congress between two diverse cultures... something will inevitably be lost in translation, but, the essential spirit of the haiku art supported by "ARTifacts" such as kigo and kireji (to mention just two) will limit that loss to a minimum, I do so hope.

~chibi (haigou for Dennis M. Holmes)

Calendar
We should link to Japanese calendar somewhere — maybe instead of Chinese calendar?
 * Strongly recommended. Without it, it is hard to understand saijiki section. And some of Japanese calendar content, like 24sekki should be expanded or just giving a clear link to Chinese calendar. -- Aphaea *  00:03, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Uguisu
someone removed uguisu from Spring kigo section. I strongly oppose it. Uguisu, sorry I don't know how it is called in Eglish, this little bird is the most important bird kigo in the spring in my opinion. It appears alread in Kokinwakashu or Manyoshu. -- Aphaea *  07:17, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I'll plead guity to removing the uguisu entry. Without a translation and some sort of explanation of why the kigo is important, it wasn't very useful (see hototogisu as an example). Unfortunately, I couldn't find the word in any of my haiku references. Only today did I find some info in a couple of my waka references. I found two different translations--song thrush and warbler. Here is a proposed entry from what I was able to gather:
 * uguisu (鶯, Japanese Bush-Warbler [sometimes translated as Japanese nightingale ], Cettia diphone) - early spring - used as an example of sweet sounds. Mentioned in the preface to the Kokinshū. It is often associated with spring blossoms and new growth in early Japanese waka and regarded as a harbinger of spring.
 * For anyone interested, here's two pictures that I found male, female. The drawings are from Siebold's "Commentary on Fauna Japonica" published in 1833. I also found spring and summer entries for uguisu at the Univ. of Virginia Japanese Haiku: A Topical Dictionary website. Blank Verse   ∅   09:19, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Great! If you let me modify it slightly, 1) Uguisu strongly associated "ume" (plum, but I am not sure), 2) It is called also "Spring herald bird" harutsugedori - but it's a trivial anyway 3) The first occasion to hear uguisu' voice is called "First sound" (hatsune) and it is another kigo.
 * As for illustration, I think we are better to put male, because the mail bird sings to express his love to a female bird. And not vice versa. -- Aphaea *  05:04, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Festival as Autumn kigo?
In Higginson's Haiku Handbook he says that "festival" (matsuri) is an all summer kigo since almost every city and town has a festival, usually associated with a local Shinto shrine. Blank Verse  ∅  08:34, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Sorry! It is totally my flaw memory; I should have consulted books, you are right, there are some additional information like that:
 * Matsuri (festival) meant Kamo matsuri (today called Aoi matsuri), the Kamo shrine festival in May [or June] in the literature tradition specially in the Heian period.
 * Matsuri as a summer kigo is strongly associated to Shonto ritual at the End of June, minatsuki-barae, ritual for purification.
 * Autumn fest and spring fest are kigo for those seasons.-- Aphaea *  11:47, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

  Autumn Festival is a kigo http://worldkigodatabase.blogspot.com/2005/01/autumn-festival-aki-matsuri.html  Festivals of Japan - Matsuri  http://worldkigo2005.blogspot.com/2005/06/festivals-of-japan.html

Google
I just checked at Google. Like many Wikipedia articles, this article is the first listing at Google when you search for "Kigo" (see . Blank Verse   ∅  03:36, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Peer Review Requested
I have put in a request at Peer Review as the next step before nominating this article as a Featured article candidates. Blank Verse  ∅  14:23, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
 * To see what people have been writting at Peer review, you can visit the Kigo subpage at Peer review/Kigo/archive1. Blank Verse   ∅   10:33, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Suggestions to consider
Feel free to ignore any of these suggestions!

Fg2 11:35, May 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * History of kigo
 * Delete "(zō)" --- the Japanese seems to add nothing. It also appears later more than once.
 * Delete "and it should include a compliment to the host of the renga writing party" unless it has a connection to kigo
 * Delete "Originally called haikai, they were renamed haiku by Shiki very late in the 19th century." because it pertains to a topic that's only a click away, and which readers are more likely to know about than kigo. Or, summarize it, e.g. "(later named "haiku")"
 * Japanese seasons
 * Delete "(which is derived from the Chinese calendar)" --- it's a topic for the article on the Japanese calendar
 * Omit Japanese terms "muki" and "zō" unless there's a special need
 * Boldface the kigo rather than the categories in the list, as in the "Common kigo" section below
 * Common kigo
 * Organize sequentially within each season

 * Generally agreed. As for "Zo" it is basically not kigo but more appropriate to renga in my opinion. Or you could be there are some topics which are never organized into none of four seasons like pine (matsu), sparrow (suzume, but "child of sparrow" is a spring kigo) and so on. And Zo and Muki could be merged when you want to keep it still in this article. --Larus.r 13:36, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

These are all very good points, and either you or I can go ahead and do some editing on the Kigo article (this is a Wiki!). As for repeating the info on zō and muki. There is a problem in the non-Japanese haiku community in that the word "kigo" has been in common usage for about 50 years, but many of the underlying and related Japanese concepts are not well known. I may have gone a little overboard in emphasizing this info. There is another problem that I am not sure that I have been able to provide a good cure for. For many haiku poets, both Japanese and non-Japanese, haiku absolutely must have a kigo. I have tried to respect that position, but still show that for some people haiku do not absolutely have to have a kigo. Showing that there are haiku with zō and muki is an attempt to show a half-way point between the two positions. Blank Verse  ∅  15:16, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Thank you for your reply. I am concluding we must keep a brief info of muki and zō for NPOV. We should say like the below:
 * For majority of haikai (hokku) & haiku poet, kigo is one essential part of their poetry.
 * There are however some exceptions calling muki and zō. They are same at the point they have no kigo, but their literature theorical backgrounds are different (Basho and Santoka are different; Santoka avoid intentionally kigo from his haiku, Basho replaced kigo with other significant poetic word and it was a sort of poetic licence. zō part in renga is different from hokku in zō because of requirement under renga rule.
 * In the modern haiku there are some "muki" haiku attempts and they are admit poets but still today there is a dispute if we can include those muki haiku into haiku (if I recall correctly, a haiku poet Fujita Shōshi opposed strongly).
 * --Larus.r 06:22, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

 * After thinking about it for awhile, I am thinking that there may need to be one more section added that would cover the zō (miscellaneous) stanzas of renga and the muki (seasonless) words of haiku, and the paragraph on "keywords" would be moved into this new section. I think that there should also be a muki section added to the section titled "Common kigo in Japanese haiku" that would cover things like the evergreen pine (matsu) and House Sparrows (suzume). Blank Verse   ∅   14:45, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

 * It sounds neat. I will be happy to see your new section. --Larus.r 15:28, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

 * I had thought that with the last section that I had added that I was finally done adding things and was going to be doing mostly reorganization and copy-editing after that. ;-) Blank Verse   ∅   15:55, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Organizing common kigo? Should it just be alphabetically, or should each season also be divided into the same categories as shown in the Saijiki section (Season, Sky and Heaven, Earth, etc.)? Blank Verse  ∅  15:55, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Now I have no idea. I would like to introduce some ways of organisation of Japanese Saijiki.
 * By season and
 * at the next, by themes: Sky and Heaven, Earth, Humanities ...
 * under each season, listed kigo from the beginning of season to the end.
 * Besides the above, there is an index following kana-order (so for us, alphabetically) at the tail.
 * Hoping it inspires you, --Larus.r 21:15, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Photos
Here are a couple more photos to consider.

Commons has a page on lotus. My photo (right) is now a Featured Picture on Commons (a tighter vertical crop is also available) and several other excellent pictures by other photographers are available.

Also, crape myrtle in front of the ancient pagoda at Toji, a temple in Kyoto.

Fg2 12:01, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

A couple of shots of Kinkaku in the snow at Kyoto. Fg2 21:58, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

And how about sounds like Image:Japanese nightingale note05.ogg (songs of male Japanese bush warbler - "uguisu" in spring)

 * I oppose to include "New Year fireworks" photo on "Saijiki" section, because fireworks itself is a kigo of autumn (early autumn) and Japanese has generally no habits of New Year fireworks. If we have this photo, it should appear on the "International Kigo" section, not strongly-Japan oriented Saijiki section. It has probably mislead our readers. --Larus.r 06:50, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Some more candidates:
 * Spring
 * ja:Image:Hina001.jpg - Hina dolls for March 3
 * Summer
 * ja:Image:Koinobori.jpg ornament for tango no sekku
 * Autumn
 * ja:Image:Sanma01.jpg - typical autumn dish
 * ja:Image:Ine karita.jpg - cropped rice (and rice field
 * New year
 * ja:Image:Simenawa kazari01.jpg new year ornament on the entrance

Thank you for commenting out the New Years fireworks. Even though I try to be cognisant of cultural differences, I am just sooooo used to the association of fireworks with the New Year that I didn't even think about Japan being different until AFTER I had added the picture. I was going to edit it out myself, but got wrapped up in doing other editing and then forgot. Is there a Japanese holiday that is usually associated with fireworks?

For the Koinobori, there is also a nice picture in the English Wiki Koinobori and Kodomo no hi articles, which would go with my desire to add both kigo and pictures related to human activities.

For the Hina Dolls, there is a different picture at Hinamatsuri, but I think I like the Japanese Wiki one better.

For your typical autumn dish, I got the translation 秋刀魚 【さんま(gikun)】 (n) pike (fish); saury. Pike (fish) is Esox, which is not the right fish. It should be Pacific saury, or Cololabis saira. The EN Wikipedia calls that a Mackerel pike, so I guess that I should add the JA photo to the EN stub article (or copy the JA photo to WikiCommons, and then link).

I liked your photo of the rice harvest, and there are more pictures at & and &. There are a couple of photos at Paddy field, but again they aren't as nice, so it looks like there are a couple of more JA Wiki photos to copy over.

For the last picture, I assume that it is a kadomatsu, 門松 【かどまつ】 (n) New Year's pine decoration. Is this another one? Shimekazari kumano01.jpg Blank Verse   ∅  16:00, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

At right: not a poet, but a poem with a kigo.

Thank you for nice photos. As experiment, I put two photos you suggested. Later you would like to modify them in more appropriate way or replace with other photos - as for the new year ornament, it is not kadomatsu (pine at gate) but "shimenawa" - dvine rope (made by straw). Both are for welcoming the New Year, but different ones (perhaps on Commons we can find photos of Kadomatsu, too...). --Larus.r 18:23, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

"Humanities"
The section of examples of significant kigo is great. But it is limited to the nature too much, there are already fests but ordinary things in life are seldom referred. For example, there is no reference to rice cultivation! (Taue, inekari and so on). And it lacks still traditional favorite in Japansee poetry (like "crying deer" [Autumn] or "yamabuki" [Spring] ... (sorry I don't know how English people call yamabuki, but if I recall corerctly I saw a pic in Commons ...) --Larus.r 13:31, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
 * from Jim Breen's WWWJDIC Japanese-English Dictionary Server
 * 山吹 【やまぶき】 (n) (1) variety of yellow rose; Japanese globeflower; (2) gold coin [G][GI][S]
 * 山吹色 【やまぶきいろ】 (n) bright golden yellow [Ex][G][GI][S]
 * I assume that it is the yellow rose or globeflower that you are refering to. The big question is how many examples of kigo are enough to get the concept accross without turning the article into a "List of kigo". My thinking right now was that the list was getting to the point where it was becoming too large a proportion of the article, and I was probably going to trim some of the example kigo. Perhaps what should happen is like in the Japanese wikipedia, there should eventually be a separate article that is a much longer "List of kigo". Blank Verse   ∅   14:51, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

 * After some thought, I agree that there probably should be some more kigo that fit into the Humanity and Observances categories (which are roughly 1/4 to 1/3 of all entries in most saijiki). At the same time, however, I think that some of the other example kigo should probably be excised because I think the list of example kigo is starting to overwhelm the rest of the article. Blank Verse   ∅   08:08, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
 * A bit late, yamabuki is not a rose. Please see photo. --Larus.r 13:30, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Apparently it's in the Rosaceae family, but not a member of any of the major subfamilies. Blank Verse   ∅   16:21, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Certainly. Belonging to Rosaceae, but not Rosana. By the way, the upper one is so-called "hitoe", the lower one is so-called "yae", featured in the epithod of Ota Dokan. --Larus.r 11:10, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

............................

Yamabuki is a plant > see here  http://worldkigo2005.blogspot.com/2006/12/yellow-rose-yamabuki.html

.............................

Something new
The "Japanese haiku: a topical dictionary" is part of the Japanese Text Initiative of the University of Virginia Library. They have a moderately-sized kiyose (list of kigo), with a smaller number of saijiki-like entries with example haiku, photographs, and even an occasional sound sample. For the New Years subsection of the Common Kigo section, I've added asterisks (*) after the Japanese name for the kigo that is an external link to the topical dictionary entry. I would like to have some feedback on this addition to the article. Is it worth continueing and adding to all the kigo for which the topical dictionary has larger entries? Blank Verse  ∅  08:08, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Perhaps no, but it is good to provide a sketchy overview. It is neat for lazy readers like me to get a rough grasp from one webpage. But now we can concenrate and prune many of redundancy from the section of "Saijiki". --Larus.r 21:10, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

List of kigo
In preparation for trimming down some of the kigo that are in the Common Japanese Kigo section of the Kigo article, I've created a new article, List of kigo. For the new article, I have divided each month into the usual categories (The Year, The Heavens, etc.). I also integrated into the List of Kigo all of the kigo that were in the Saijiki and Non-Japanese Kigo sections of the Kigo article. For many, but not all categories, I have also alphabetized the kigo within the category, and will try to finish that within the next day or two. Some of the photos will also need to be moved around to make things look a little less cluttered (at least when I view the page at 800x600).

Also, I have reworked the To-do list on this Talk page, so if you click the Purge link, you will see the ambitious new To-do list. Blank Verse  ∅  10:05, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

Trimming
Though I was the one who began to add every month to the list of kigo, I propose to trim most of month name from the current list. It seems to me enough So we can trim three of four similar redundant entries.. -- Aphaea *  19:58, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * mention "every season and month name can serve as kigo" at the "spring" section.
 * provide examples there
 * leave the significant kigo including "ikuharu" & "sangatsujin" (Passing Spring & End of March) and "ikuaki" & "kugatsujin" (Passing Autumn & End of September).

Is the Kigo article a "Good Article"?
The Kigo article has been submitted for review as a Good Article at Good article candidates/ Although the article is currently just under the 32KB requirement [at 31.6 kB (4816 words)], I still listed it as a long article. Blank Verse 10:41, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I passed it. mrholybrain 22:47, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

momoko katsu chiru ?
I, as a native japanese, wonder what the word means. Perhaps, this is misunderstanding or mis-spelling. On what reference this word can be find? --124.25.23.226 14:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I got it. It is "momiji katsu chiru", means some leaves turning color, some falling. --Isorhiza 14:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Hokku and haiku (and haikai)
I've removed the following from the "History of kigo" section: Following scholarly precision, the term haikai is used here for the pre-Shiki form and haiku for the post-Shiki form, though popular usage often anachronistically applies haiku to both pre- and post-Shiki verse. Much of what is said here of kigo use in haiku applied to haikai (and the hokku of renga) as well. Firstly, it is untrue in the sense that the convention which it specifies is not followed in the article; secondly, the convention which it specifies is in any case incorrect: 'haikai' was (and continues to be) used to describe (narrowly) the linked verse form also known as haikai no renga (or renku), and (broadly) the literary genre which includes renku, haiku, haiga, haibun and senryu.

There is a great deal of undesirable inconsistency in the article between the use of 'hokku' and 'haiku'. The usage question is not complex:

Hokku is the term for the opening verse of a renga; it was also used, pre-Shiki, to describe such a verse even when presented independently;

Haiku is the term used by Shiki for standalone hokku; it has come to be used retrospectively by the overwhelming majority, to describe all standalone hokku, including those penned before Shiki's time, even though such verses were known as hokku at the time of writing. While some vociferous argument can be found regarding nomenclature (see e.g. David Coomler's blog) it is largely irrelevant to this article.

I'll come back to this shortly and make a consistency edit, but if anyone wants to make a case for a particular position please do so. --Yumegusa (talk) 11:32, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Done that, though the bit in "Must haiku include a kigo?" on Basho is problematic in this respect, as it is unclear whether (standalone) haiku or hokku (from within renku) are being referred to. Probably both combined. But it leaves a fairly glaring inconsistency. Ideas anyone?--Yumegusa (talk) 01:55, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

 * Since I wrote the "Must haiku include kigo" section: First of all, it does say "out of about 1,000 hokku", so there should be no question about what it is referring to--the opening line of a renku. Basho wrote very few standalone poems, except for those in his travel diaries.

 * The information was from some private correspondence with a well-known translator of Japanese haiku who knew the info from one of his Japanese reference books. Unfortunately, I never followed up on getting a proper citation for the info, but apparently it was from a well respected reference book on Basho so someone from Japan should be able to track down the info.

 * As for the confusion about hakai/hokku, that's David Coomler's idiosyncratic theory and it has no support anywhere else in the English-language haiku community. Feel free to always remove it whenever he or one of his followers tries to add it here or in the haiku article. 66.81.248.237 (talk) 15:53, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

References/ External Links
A large number of the external links listed under 'References' appear to be in direct conflict with WP:EL which frowns on links to Yahoo! groups and blogs. Yet the information to be found in Gabi Greve's WKD (to which most of those links refer) is both reliable and useful. Leave them in in defiance of stated WP policy?--Yumegusa (talk) 01:31, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Due to lack of response, I'll leave status quo--Yumegusa (talk) 14:41, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Kigo and seasons in the United States of America
In the Kigo and seasons section there appears the sentence: "A little later in the year pumpkins are also associated with the pumpkin pies that are often part of the US Thanksgiving Day dinner along with turkey and cranberries": I wonder why, in an account of something specifically Japanese. One could pepper the article with analogues in other cultures across the world, but it is not clear to me how this would help clarify understanding of the use of kigo in Japanese poetry. Certainly I cannot see any justification for singling out one non-Japanese culture for comparison. Is there any objection to removing this sentence? JamesBWatson (talk) 13:15, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. There's a whole lot more editing needs done here too though.--Yumegusa (talk) 14:46, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Claims of the moon's influence on agriculture
I undid the following addition: "However, to an island nation with a massive population, farming is a vital industry and even the smallest increase in production is heavily researched. As any grower or agriculturer can attest, the phases and characteristics of the moon are of increased importance during both the harvest and seeding seasons. It is widely known, yet still falls under the realm of pseudoscience, that seed germination is sped up by a notable margin if sowing is done in cooperation with phases of the moon. Depending upon the type of crop the influence of the moon can strengthen the root system, influence yield, or effect flowering and all this diverse alteration of crop growth is contingent on mere hours."

There are several reasons:

 * The only citation given is not sufficient to support the claims. Some random blog post by a layperson is not sufficient evidence to claim the moon somehow mysteriously affects agriculture through some undescribed mechanism that isn't understood by anyone.
 * Claims about what "any grower or agriculturer can attest" are too strongly worded. At best, a claim can be made about "Most farmers surveyed believe ..." if such a survey had been done, and that result was found, and a citation given for that survey.
 * The claim that "It is widely known, yet still falls under the realm of pseudoscience" is self-contradictory. If it is pseudoscience, then it is not *known*. At the very most, it's possible that it's widely *believed*, but even that claim would need evidence to support it before it should be added to Wikipedia.

--Daniel (talk) 18:33, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

major lack of citations
This page is almost entirely uncited, and most of it is a list of kigo. It seems like listing words belongs on List of kigo. Can we just remove the lists from this page to help it be more focused on what a kigo is? Also, hi, I work at the Brigham Young University library as their Wikipedian-in-Residence and I've been looking at haiku-related pages this week. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 22:32, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Southern California kigo
I found a citation for the list of Southern California season words! It is the blog of the Southern California study group. I think it is a great example of how kigo change based on location. However, I'm not sure if we consider it a reliable source. Thoughts? Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 19:47, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I found another saijiki for the bay area. I think I saw a link to an Alaskan saijiki in the references section too. I will reduce the list of Southern California words to avoid WP:UNDUE. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 22:14, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Kigo


text:
William Griffin

William, Willie, Will, Billy or Bill Griffin may refer to:

Arts and entertainment

 * William Griffin (painter) (1811–1870), New Zealand painter
 * Billy Griffin (born 1950), American singer-songwriter
 * Rakim (William Michael Griffin Jr., born 1968), American rapper
 * Bill Griffin (musician), American mandolinist and luthier

Religion

 * William Richard Griffin (1882–1944), American Roman Catholic bishop
 * William A. Griffin (Roman Catholic bishop) (1885–1950), American Roman Catholic Bishop of Trenton
 * William A. Griffin (Christian churches and churches of Christ) (fl. 1980s–2000s), Christian preacher and President of Mid-Atlantic Christian University

Sports

 * Willie Griffin (1922–1983), Irish hurler
 * Billy Griffin (footballer) (born 1940), English footballer, see List of Sheffield Wednesday F.C. players
 * William Griffin (rugby) (fl. 1950s), Welsh rugby union and rugby league footballer

Others

 * William Henry Griffin (1812–1900), Canadian civil servant
 * William D. Griffin (1936–2011), American historian, author, and educator
 * William Griffin (geologist), recipient of the Clarke Medal for 2013 in the field of geology

title: William Griffin


text:
Preston School of Industry

The Preston School of Industry, also known as Preston Castle, was a reform school located in Ione, California, in Amador County. It was proposed by, and ultimately named after, state senator Edward Myers Preston. The cornerstone was laid in December 1890, and the institution was opened in June 1894 when seven wards (minors under the guardianship of the state, but not necessarily juvenile offenders) were transferred there from San Quentin State Prison. It is considered one of the oldest and best-known reform schools in the United States.

The original building, known colloquially as "Preston Castle" (or simply "The Castle"), is the most significant example of Romanesque Revival architecture in the Mother Lode. This building was vacated in 1960, shortly after new buildings had been constructed to replace it, and has since been named a California Historical Landmark (#867), and listed on the National Register of Historic Places (NPS-75000422).

In 1999, the institution's official name, applied to the newer 1960 buildings, was changed to the "Preston Youth Correctional Facility".

In 2010, the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation announced that the facility was to close, and a closing ceremony was held on June 2, 2011.

In popular culture
The school was used as a shooting location (as the "Bleeding Heart Orphanage") for the 1984 comedy film Bad Manners.

The 2014 film A Haunting at Preston Castle is set at the castle and surrounding area, as is the 2019 movie Apparition.

The first episode of season 2 of the TV series Ghost Adventures is about Preston Castle.

Ghost Hunters investigated the castle's paranormal reports in season 6, episode 6.

The facility is the subject of The Lowe Files Season 1, Episode 1: "Haunted Boy's Reformatory".

Preston School of Industry was an American indie rock band formed by Scott Kannberg (a.k.a. Spiral Stairs) in 1999, following the dissolution of his previous band, Pavement.

Former wards
Former Preston wards include: • Ernest Booth

• Edward Bunker

• Rory Calhoun (Timothy McCown)

• Neal Cassady

• Caryl Chessman

• Eldridge Cleaver

• Joseph Paul Cretzer

• Gerald Armond Gallego

• Ricardo "Pancho" Gonzales

• Merle Haggard

• Brandt "B-Legit" Jones

• Don Jordan

• Eddie Machen

title: Preston School of Industry