text:
Talk:Ladislas Starevich

Untitled
In russian-language literature, I have only come across the name Khanzhonkov (transliteration here following Gosstandart Rossii ST SEV 1362 of 1978, not ISO R9 of 1995). Where the name Khazhonkov could come from is unclear to me, but it might be a transliteration error.

timo 15:38, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I have double-checked at the Russian State Archive for Literature today, and in fact, the name is Khanzhonkov.

timo 12:45, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Polish?
I don't see how one can say that he was Polish. His parents were, true, but he lived in either Russia or France his whole life and as far as I can tell he never even visited Poland. So should he really be in the Polish categories? Esn 16:04, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * He is Polish if you apply a commonly used set of standards of nationality (which aren't often used in the united states) whereby the nationality of one's parents is key. It's the same sort of thing which makes some people called "half-Jewish" even if they're not Jewish or "Japanese-American" if they aren't actually from Japan. It's kinda complicated and I don't claim to get it at all, so there you are. (Plus, his name is Polish, not Russian.) --Lenoxus
 * They're not often used in Canada either... I think the trouble here is that for some countries there are no separate words for "Polish" as in "from the country Poland" or "Polish" as in "of Polish ancestry". For example, one can say that one is "Kazakh" (which means that you are of Kazakh ancestry) or one can say that one is "Kazakhstani" (which means that you are from Kazakhstan).  That there are no such distinctions in many European countries causes a lot of unnecessary confusion and (I believe) can be the source of much ethnic tension (since it becomes impossible to, for example, be "French" if you are not of French ancestry - there is no word for such a thing).  Anyway, I guess I'll leave this alone for now... but I really do think that this is a shortcoming in language that must be fixed. :p Esn 11:06, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Why he haven't visited Poland? Before 1918 whole territory of Poland was annexed by enemies. Lands like Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine, by many (especialy Poles) were considered like polish "lost territories" (Ziemie Zabrane). So every Pole who lived in vast terrytory of former Poland (or Polish-Lituanian Commonwealth before 1791) was considered as living in Poland in the same mesure like he would be livnig in Warsaw, Cracow, Wilno(Villnius), or Kijów (Kiev). Additionaly a Lithuania was in this time dominated by Poles (also by polish culture and language), they were in many regions dominating population. 100% of nobility of Lithuania was Polish in culture and language (but they could have lLithuanian ancestry) Majan (talk) 18:28, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Let's just stick to the rules. According to WP:MOSBIO, the opening paragraph should have:

subject's notability. --Garik 11 (talk) 07:02, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Name(s) and title(s), if any (see, for instance, also Naming conventions (royalty and nobility));
 * 2) Dates of birth and death, if known (see Manual of Style (dates and numbers));
 * 3) Context (location, nationality, or ethnicity);
 * 4) In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable.
 * 5) Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities and/or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the
 * As far as I know, the general policy of Wikipedia is to follow the sources, and he as described as "Polish animator", "Polish puppeteer" or simply "Polish" by numerous sources. He is also described as "the father of Polish puppet animation" (which is certainly relevant to his notability), for example: International Leipzig Festival for Documentary and Animated films will be honoring the father of Polish animation Władysław Starewicz. Adam Mickiewicz (a Polish national poet) and Fryderyk Chopin (known as a Polish composer) never were Polish citizens too. Citizenship doesn't equal nationality in all cases.
 * Any source confirming that he was a French citizen? According to this book (p. 11), he wrote about himself after the WW2 - "Polish by nationality, never naturalized as French citizen". Hedviberit (talk) 23:01, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That's fine, his ethnicity was Polish. (Or was it Polish-Jewish?) Whichever the case is, we do mention this sourced information in the article body, but not in the opening sentence. --Garik 11 (talk) 23:57, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * WP:SOURCES According to the sources, his nationality and ethnicity was Polish, and he was a Polish animator/puppeteer. He made notable contribution to Polish art. If you know sources stating that he was a Polish Jew, please add them. The information that he possessed French and Russian citizenship is unsourced.
 * I think it's fair to delete "Russian" and "French" from the lede (and also "Russian" and "French" categories). For the record, I'm not against him being French and Russian animator (because he contributed also to French and Russian animation), but not at the cost of mentioning that he was also a Polish animator. Please don't reinsert the deleted material until we reach consensus. My proposition was and is: "Polish-Russian-French" stop-motion animator in the lede, Polish categories should also be added.Hedviberit (talk) 01:43, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Please re-read what is quoted above, especially in bold type, from WP:MOSBIO. Context should be in the opening paragraph, you cannot just remove it completely. Poland was never the context in his case. I am not against him being Polish either, if this was his ethnicity, but "Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability". That is he became notable not for being Polish or Jewish, straight or gay. What do yo mean by "Polish" anyway? You may emphasize his ethnicity or cultural affiliation or whatever falls in the "Polish" category elsewhere in the article, not in the opening sentence. --Garik 11 (talk) 07:01, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Picture
Some picture needs to be added to the article of Starevich. The best picture I've seen of him is this one - it's simply perfect. I'd like to add it to the article, but does anybody know where I can find a bigger version of it?

There are some other good ones too:

Most are too small, though, and I'm not sure that the painting is a good idea if a good photograph is available. The one from Russiancinema.ru is a pretty good one, with a bonus being that he looks pretty young in it so there's a fair chance that it would be PD. I can't find the copyright info for it, though. Esn 01:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The one good reason to use the painting would be that the guys in the background are characters from one of Starevich's films (entitled Winter Wonderland, I think), which really helps both add information and make the solid connection with him and his art... plus it's simply a cool picture, and who says we can only have paintings of people born before the invention of photography? --Lenoxus 01:27, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Incorrectly formatted film titles
I see no reason for the list of films to be in all caps, but I'mnot up to tackling it. The original titles ought to be italicized too, as well as their translations. Jessicapierce 23:18, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Ladislas Starevich


text: User talk:12.177.42.2

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:12.177.42.2


text:
Aériane Swift

The Aériane Swift is a lightweight (48 kg) foot-launched tailless sailplane whose rigid wings have a span of 40 feet. The Swift has been succeeded by the "Swift'Lite".

Although designed in California, Swift aircraft are now manufactured by Aériane, a European firm based in Gembloux, Belgium. Aériane first manufactured the Swift under licence, but the firm is now the sole manufacturer.

Design & development
The Swift (an acronym for 'Swept Wing with Inboard Flap for Trim') was originally conceived as a rigid hang glider with sailplane-like performance. Bright Star Gliders had developed the 1989 U.S. National Hang Gliding Championship winning Odyssey prototype. Meanwhile Professor Ilan Kroo and a group of graduate students at Stanford University had developed the Stanford SWIFT design project. When Brian Porter of Bright Star met Stanford student Steve Morris, the projects merged. Bright Star constructed the revised SWIFT and its first flight took place in December 1989.

The swept wing has control surfaces along the entire trailing edge: flaps occupy the inner 42%, and elevons take up 58% of the outer span. Large winglets act as vertical stabilizers and the models with an enclosed cockpit also have conventional fuselage stabilising surfaces that contribute to yaw stability. The winglets on the 1989 prototype were fixed surfaces, so the pilot effected turns using the elevons.

The original Swift is now out of production, having been replaced by a refined version called the Swift'Lite. This new model has winglets that, like those on the Rutan Long-EZ, are rudders when used singly, and air-brakes when used together. In addition, compared to its predecessor, the Swift'Lite is claimed to be: 20% lighter, with lighter and more responsive controls, a lower stall speed, an improved glide ratio of 27:1, better pilot visibility and comfort, and simplified assembly procedure.

Model range
A variety of different "fuselage pods" have been fitted beneath the wings to create a range of aircraft, as follows: The various fuselage frames are interchangeable and any can be added to the same basic wing. Swift gliders with engines originally had Arplast EcoProp folding propellers, which feather for soaring when then engine is turned off. Powered Swift gliders are not foot-launched, having instead two main wheels in tandem layout, and small wing-tip castors.
 * the core product is the foot-launched glider (the Swift'Lite)
 * a self-launching glider (the Swift-PAS) with 12 hp two-stroke engine, later with an 18 hp Bailey 175 four stroke engine
 * a motor-glider (the P-Swift) with 25 hp 2-stroke engine
 * an electric-powered variant (Swift-Light E) has 20 minutes of powered flight per charge. Power comes from an Eck-Geiger HPD-10, 10-kilowatt motor, controller and battery system, part of a setup designed and sold by Austrian hang-gliding champion Manfred Ruhmer.
 * a two-seat glider used for training (the Tandem Swift)

Current types
As of October 2020, Aériane are producing only 2 versions of the Swift'Lite:
 * The Swift’Light, foot-launchable, and
 * The E-Swift’Light, with an electric motor.

Specifications (Swift'Lite)
data from flight manual

Technical data and speeds

 * Empty weight without fairing: 48kg
 * Maximum take off weight: 158 kg (version without motor)
 * Span: 12,8 m
 * Surface area: 12,5 m²
 * Aspect ratio: 12,9
 * Sweep (at 25% of the chord): 20°

 * Recommended pilot weight: 55 - 100 kg

 * Vne (Never Exceed Speed): 120 km/h
 * Vra (Maximum Rough Air Speed): 100 km/h
 * Vfe (Maximum speed with flaps set to 20° or more): 80 km/h

 * Va (Manœuvre Speed): 85 km/h

 * Vs (Stall Speed):
 * flap sets to 0° at maximum take-off weight:  37 km/h
 * flap sets to 20° at maximum take-off weight: 32 km/h

 * Best Glide:     27: 1 @  70 km/h
 * Minimum Sink:   0,6 m/s @ 43 km/h

 * Load Factor: + 5,3 g/- 2,65 g (with 1.5 safety coefficient).

title: Aériane Swift


text:
Hale (lunar crater)

Hale is a relatively young lunar impact crater that is located on the southern limb of the Moon. Over half the crater lies on the far side of the Moon, and from the Earth this formation is viewed from the side. Thus the crater must be viewed from orbit in order to discern much detail. The nearest crater of note is Wexler to the north. To the east on the far side is the huge walled plain Schrödinger, and to the southwest is the crater Demonax.

The rim of Hale is well-defined, with little wear from later impacts, but has a somewhat irregular, notched perimeter. The inner surface is multiply terraced with some indications of slumping. The inner floor is flat with only a few tiny craterlets to mark the surface. Near the midpoint of the interior is a complex central peak formation, with an additional low rise just to the north.

Satellite craters
By convention these features are identified on lunar maps by placing the letter on the side of the crater midpoint that is closest to Hale.

title: Hale (lunar crater)


text: Category:Hang gliding

title: Category:Hang gliding


text:
Talk:List of subcamps of Sachsenhausen

Untitled
Why is it: one, eleven, twelve, thirteen ... ?

-- Serpens 14:43, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

title: Talk:List of subcamps of Sachsenhausen


text: Talk:Viðfinnr

title: Talk:Viðfinnr


text:
Category:Vision

Articles relating to visual perception.

title: Category:Vision


text:
Talk:Shall We Tell the President?

The FBI are...
What would Americans say instead of "The FBI are.."??
 * The FBI is the Federal Bureau of Investigation. It's singular. The FBI agents are called, well, agents, or, in slang, "The Feds", "G Men"... GRuban 16:58, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The British sometimes refer to collective entities in plural form when Americans would use a singular form ("The government are . . ."/"The government is . . ." 162.27.9.20 17:06, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Two Versions
The two versions are so different as to nearly be separate works. The earlier, Ted Kennedy version was totally rewritten to make it part of the hot-selling Kane and Abel franchise. If these books were movies, the latter would be referred to as a "remake". 75.200.43.27 (talk) 03:41, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Should Jackie be mentioned?
Just recently, Reelz had a documentary about Jacqueline Kennedy called "Jackie: Behind Closed Doors" which briefly mentioned that the original plot of this book was the reason that she quit her job as an editor for the company which I believe from information here was Jonathan Cape. This fact also notably appeared in Bill O'Reilly's book Killing Kennedy, so should this be noted upon on this page?--Riadse96 (talk) 06:23, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

title: Talk:Shall We Tell the President?


text:
Alys Faiz

Alys Faiz (Urdu:; September 1915 – 12 March 2003) was a Pakistani poet, writer, journalist, human rights activist, social worker and a teacher. Alys was born in London, but she later became a naturalized citizen of Pakistan. She was the wife of Faiz Ahmad Faiz and the mother of Salima Hashmi and Muneeza Hashmi.

Early life
Alys George was the daughter of a London bookseller, and she joined the Communist Party as a teenager. She and her sister, Christobel, were active in leftist circles in the 1930s and were close to Indian intellectuals based in London. Alys served as an unofficial secretary to Krishna Menon, the secretary of the Free Indian League. Christobel married Dr. M. D. Taseer and joined him in India where he was the principal of a college. Alys traveled to India in 1938 to visit her sister, and, when World War II broke out, she decided to make the subcontinent her home.

Marriage and life in Pakistan
The nikaah (marriage deed) between Alys George and Faiz was solemnized by Sheikh Abdullah in Srinagar in 1941 at Pari Mahal, the summer palace of Maharaja Hari Singh and where M D Taseer, then the principal of S.P. College was living.Upon marriage, Alys converted to Islam and Faiz gave her the Muslim name "Kulsoom". Alys Faiz joined Pakistan Times newspaper's editorial staff in 1950 where Faiz Ahmad Faiz was already serving as the newspaper editor. She looked after the women's and children's section of the newspaper.

Family
She was the aunt of Salmaan Taseer, the son of her sister Christobel.

Alys had two daughters with Faiz: Salima Hashmi and Muneeza Hashmi. The artist Adeel Hashmi is her grandson.

Her legacy
After her death, Habib R. Sulemani wrote in The Dawn newspaper, "During my decade-long stay in Lahore, as a silent observer of the literary-scene, I was fascinated by her life-story which made me believe that women are stronger than men and have an immense power and talent for reconciliation and bridging the gaps between two families or nations. Alys gave courage to many western women who were married to Pakistanis and now live here as citizens. Alys gave many sacrifices. Faiz Ahmad Faiz's life and poetry have influenced hundreds of thousands of people in one way or the other, but Alys has shaped his life and poetry. A study of Faiz, as a person and a poet, cannot be complete without a study of Alys. Rather I should say she needs a special treat on her own right as a writer and a poet.

A recent dramatic Production 'Chand Roz Aur Meri Jaan' focussed for the first time on the inimitable chemistry between Faiz and Alys. 'Chand Roz Aur Meri Jaan' presents the hitherto unknown aspects of their life together with the help of letters exchanged between them, particularly during 'Rawalpindi Saazish' days. In one such production at Amritsar, renowned theatre actress Suchitra Gupta portrayed the role of Alys with Danish Iqbal. So, apart from a few newspaper articles and interviews in books, this production is the first ever attempt to pay tribute to the silent role played by Alys in shaping the life of Faiz."

Death
Alys Faiz died on 12 March 2003 in Lahore, Pakistan, at a hospital at the age of 87. She had been unwell for some time and was confined to her house after suffering a fracture of the hipbone in a fall. She was taken to the emergency department of a local hospital for treatment and did not survive. She was buried in the Model Town, Lahore, graveyard by the side of her husband Faiz Ahmad Faiz who had died earlier on 20 November 1984.

title: Alys Faiz


text:
Schrödinger (crater)

Schrödinger is a large lunar impact crater of the form traditionally called a walled plain and is named after Erwin Schrödinger. It is located near the south lunar pole on the far side of the Moon, and can only be viewed from orbit.

The smaller crater Ganswindt is attached to the southwestern rim of Schrödinger, and intrudes slightly into the inner wall. Adjacent to the south is the crater Nefed'ev. Farther to the southwest is the crater Amundsen.

Schrödinger is perhaps the moon's best example of a peak-ring basin. It possesses a wide outer rim that has been slightly rounded due to subsequent impacts. But the rim remains well-defined, and traces of terraces can be seen along the inner surface. The ejecta on the exterior forms an irregular outer rampart that extends for up to 100 kilometers. Within the interior is a second ring approximately half the diameter of the outer rim. This forms a circular range of rugged mountains that surrounds the center, with the exception of a wide gap in the south. The remainder of the floor has been resurfaced by subsequent lava flows, producing a relatively flat surface particularly within the inner ring. The exception is an area of rough ground in the southeast part of the interior.

A complex of rilles has formed across the floor, forming multiple clefts particularly in the south. The floor has also been marked by subsequent impacts, leaving tiny craterlets scattered across the surface. There is no central peak at the midpoint of the interior. There is a long, narrow valley leading directly away from Schrödinger to the northwest, designated Vallis Schrödinger. This formation begins some distance from the outer rim of the crater, at the edge of the ejecta that surrounds the perimeter. It extends to the rim of the crater Moulton. Another similar valley designated Vallis Planck radiates to the north, beginning near the crater Grotrian at the periphery of the Schrödinger ejecta, and extending past Fechner.

The Schrödinger impact basin is one of a few locations on the Moon that show evidence of geologically recent volcanic activity. A geological study of the basin shows evidence of lava flows and eruptions from vents. There is also older volcanic material and material scattered because of impacts. The volcanic vent is called Schrödinger G, and is thought to be Imbrian in age.

Satellite craters
By convention these features are identified on lunar maps by placing the letter on the side of the crater midpoint that is closest to Schrödinger.

Popular culture
Schrödinger crater is the location of the Moon Nazi base, Schwarze Sonne, in the Finnish film Iron Sky.

title: Schrödinger (crater)


text: User talk:156.3.171.250

title: User talk:156.3.171.250


text: Category:Hearing

title: Category:Hearing


text:
Thomas J. Goreau

Thomas J. Goreau (Tom Goreau, * 1950 in Jamaica) is a biogeochemist and marine biologist. He is the son of two other renowned marine biologists, Thomas F. Goreau and Nora I. Goreau.

Education
After studying in Jamaican primary and secondary schools, he received an undergraduate degree in planetary physics from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (BS, 1970). He went on to earn a Master of Science in planetary astronomy from the California Institute of Technology (1972) and a Ph.D. in biogeochemistry from Harvard University (1981).

Career
With his parents, he researched the coral reefs of Jamaica and continues to conduct research on the impacts of global climate change, pollution, and new diseases in reefs across the Caribbean, Indian Ocean, and Pacific. His current work focuses on coral reef restoration, fisheries restoration, shoreline protection, renewable energy, community-based coral reef management, mariculture, soil metabolism, soil carbon, and stabilization of global carbon dioxide. He was formerly Senior Scientific Affairs Officer at the United Nations Centre for Science and Technology for Development. He is currently President of the Global Coral Reef Alliance and Director of Remineralize The Earth.

title: Thomas J. Goreau


text:
Fruit Chan

Fruit Chan Gor (born 15 April 1959) is a Hong Kong filmmaker who is best known for his style of film reflecting the everyday life of Hong Kong people. He is well known for using amateur actors (such as Sam Lee in Made in Hong Kong, Wong Yau-Nam in Hollywood Hong Kong) in his films. He became a household name after the success of the 1997 film Made in Hong Kong, which earned many local and international awards.

Early life
Chan was born in Guangdong, China. Growing up, he watched a lot of films from Communist countries.

He and his family moved to Hong Kong in July 1971. His family was poor and Chan worked in an electronics factory while finishing Forms 1 to 3 at night school. He later got a job as a projectionist in Jordan, Hong Kong, where he developed an interest in international cinema.

He later enrolled in a one-year film studies course at the Film Culture Society, garnering admission by lying about his secondary education experience and working odd jobs to pay for tuition.

Career
He continued his interest in film later on at the Hong Kong Film Culture Centre, a small film club, where he studied script writing and directing. In 1982, after only one year of working at the Hong Kong Film Culture Centre he started his career in the film industry. He began his career as an assistant director to David Lai Dai-Wai in the film Mid-Night Girls. He later worked as an assistant director to mainstream directors Jackie Chan, Kirk Wong, Ronny Yu, and Shu Kei.

His break came in 1991 when a film he was working with stopped its production. Chan took this as an opportunity; he used the same studio to direct Finale in Blood starring Hong Kong film star Andy Lau. However, the outcome of the first of his own films was highly praised by the critics rather than the public. In 1994 he collected a total of 500,000 HKD and film-materials left over by other productions to begin directing his award-winning Made in Hong Kong. After Made in Hong Kong came out he was thought of as the hope for Hong Kong cinema by fellow Hong Kong filmmakers for challenging the stable model of Hong Kong filmmaking. He had become the first filmmaker to, independently of the big studios, challenge the genre of Hong Kong films and make realistic films about the political and social situations going on in Hong Kong at the time. The film was the first part to a trilogy that included The Longest Summer and Little Cheung.

In 2002, Chan was a member of the jury at the 24th Moscow International Film Festival.

Chan was selected to head the jury for the 2015 Taipei Film Festival.

Style and influences
Chan lists Japanese directors, particularly from the 1960s such as Nagisa Ōshima, as his primary influences. Ōshima specifically was the influence for Chan's film Made in Hong Kong (1997).

Chan's films often focus on the "raw, often bleak, view of life of Hong Kong's working class."

As director

 * Finale in Blood (大鬧廣昌隆) (1993)
 * The 1997 Trilogy (九七三部曲) (referring to the year of Hong Kong's handover to the People's Republic of China)
 * Made in Hong Kong (香港製造) (1997)
 * The Longest Summer (去年煙花特別多) (1998)
 * Little Cheung (細路祥) (1999)
 * The Prostitute Trilogy (妓女三部曲)
 * Durian Durian (榴槤飄飄) (2000)
 * Hollywood Hong Kong (香港有個荷里活) (2001)
 * Three Husbands (三夫) (2018)
 * Public Toilet (人民公廁) (2002)
 * Three... Extremes (三更2) (2004) – segment "Dumplings"
 * Dumplings (餃子) (2004)
 * Chengdu, I Love You (2009) – segment "1976"
 * Don't Look Up (2009), a remake of the 1996 Japanese horror film Don't Look Up
 * Tales from the Dark 1 (2013) – segment Jing Zhe
 * The Midnight After (2014)
 * Kill Time (2016)
 * The Abortionist (墮胎師) (2019)
 * Coffin Homes (2021)

As scriptwriter

 * Bugis Street (1995)
 * The 1997 Trilogy 九七三部曲
 * Little Cheung 細路祥 (1999)
 * The Longest Summer 去年煙花特別多 (1998)
 * Made in Hong Kong 香港製造 (1997)
 * The Prostitute Trilogy 妓女三部曲
 * Hollywood Hong Kong 香港有個荷里活 (2001)
 * Durian Durian 榴槤飄飄 (2000)
 * Public Toilet 人民公廁 (2002)

As producer

 * Public Toilet 人民公廁 (2002)
 * Colour Blossoms 桃色 (2004)
 * A-1 Headline (2004)
 * Bliss (2006)
 * Still Human 淪落人 (2019)

As actor

 * Mrs K (2016)

title: Fruit Chan


text:
Talk:Group algebra of a locally compact group

Section heading for L1(G).
I suggest we remove the heading, and leave the content of that section so that it becomes part of the preceding section. CSTAR 14:51, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Need simple definition for finite groups
ToDo: The very first part of this article should describe the group algebra for finite groups. linas 04:58, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Never mind, I just added the beast. I needed something simple so that I could explain young symmetrizer. linas 06:39, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Group C*-algebras
Now the group C*-algebras (maximal and reduced) are both defined twice.... --CSTAR 14:31, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes ... I needed to think some more about that merge. Possibly there was little actually new in what I added. Charles Matthews 15:57, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Group ring and group C*-algebra
Some of the material in this article (group algebra) should be relocated to group ring. A while back, the material on group C*-algebra was transferred from the group ring article to here. However, I think there should be a separate article on Group C*-algebra of a locally compact group. --CSTAR 00:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Hopf and Frobenius structures
Any group algebra has the structure of a Hopf algebra and any group algebra for a finite group has the structure of a Frobenius algebra. Maybe someone should put that in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.111.90.68 (talk) 02:07, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Group algebra over topological groups
I tried to check the inclusion of the support of the convolution product. I get a condition on existence of elements of G that map
 * $$ (Supp(g))^{-1} $$ to  $$ Supp(f) $$

oh, it actually works, but one has to understand that we really have a product on the support!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.169.87.137 (talk • contribs) 15:00, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Preamble
It doesn't seem good to me, if you don't mind, I would change it. I see two main shortcomings: group algebras are not necessarily Banach algebras, and the phrase about representations sounds too vague: "such that representations of the algebra are related to representations of the group" I would write something like "In functional analysis, group algebras are constructions that generalize the concept of group ring to some classes of topological groups with the aim to reduce the theory of representations of topological groups to the theory of representations of topological algebras. There are several main (non-equivalent) definitions of group algebra..." Eozhik (talk) 07:56, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

 * I did this. If nobody objects, I would make several other corrections to unify the presentation. Eozhik (talk) 13:30, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

 * (sorry for late response). You are correct that group algebras in generality are not necessarily Banach algebras. It’s just that the article limits itself to those cases. Should there be a more general treatment of group algebra? Perhaps, but we need a reference for that. —- Taku (talk) 00:35, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

 * , this sounds strange:"You are correct that group algebras in generality are not necessarily Banach algebras. It’s just that the article limits itself to those cases." It is not written in the title of the article, even after your edits, that it is limited to Banach algebras. Where does this idea come from? And this:"Should there be a more general treatment of group algebra? Perhaps, but we need a reference for that." The references for Banach group algebras don't disappear if we describe the algebraic case or give other definitions. What is the problem? Eozhik (talk) 04:44, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

 * The idea of Bananch algebra comes from the references the article use; it’s more common to use Banach algebras than more general topological algebras. In mathematics, almost always you can generalize the existing constructions. Mathematical possible does not mean editors are allowed to it; such a generalization needs to be well-established in literature before it can be discussed in Wikipedia. —— Taku (talk) 12:26, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Removal of the section on group algebras of finite groups and other last edits
Dear, I don't agree with your words: "move idea section to stereotypical group algebra; as far as I can tell, this section is unrelated" What is meant here? Finite groups are special cases of locally compact groups. Their group algebras are special cases (and key examples) of group algebras. On the other hand, stereotype group algebra is one of the definitions of group algebra for locally compact groups. Why all this must be moved to another article? Eozhik (talk) 22:35, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

 * For example, that section emphasizes the aspect like a Hopf algebra structure or a category-theoretic universal property. Those aspects are important but, as I said, are somehow not relevant or not usually stressed in the discussion of group algebras in functional analysis (in the standard textbooks). —- Taku (talk) 00:33, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

 * group algebras are standard examples of Hopf algebras, and this is widely discussed in different sources, including textbooks. I do not see the necessity to limit the view of the reader to the cases when the proposed construction does not allow to prove this property. And this division into several articles, in which the property of being a Hopf algebra is only mentioned in the most exotic one, which in addition, has some prospect of being removed from Wikipedia, I find very strange. Eozhik (talk) 05:03, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

 * Of course, group algebras (of finite groups) are important examples of Hopf algebras. But this aspect is covered elsewhere in Wikipedia. But in functional analysis textbooks, you usually don’t see the discussion of Hopf algebras; they are more common in textbooks on algebraic groups or in algebraic topology. You said “I do not see the necessity to limit the view of the reader to the cases when the proposed construction does not allow to prove this property.” Mathematically, perhaps. But in Wikipedia the goal is not to pursue the mathematical elegant treatment of the topic but to pursue the best reflection of standard treatment of the topic. In other words, a Wikipedia article should look too different from a discussion in textbooks. This is why I moved “stereotype” type stuff to a separate article as that note does not appear in standard textbooks. This is why the article need to limit itself to Banach spaces (since that’s standard). —- Taku (talk) 11:35, 8 April 2020 (UTC)≐

 * , I suppose, here "a Wikipedia article should look too different from a discussion in textbooks" — you meant "a Wikipedia article should not look too different from a discussion in textbooks". Correct? Eozhik (talk) 11:46, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

 * Yes, sorry. "should" should have been "shouldn't". -- Taku (talk) 11:48, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

 * , so your point is that a Wikipedia article must describe only what is written in textbooks, right? Eozhik (talk) 12:04, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes. Textbooks or some major monographs. nlab, on the other hand, is a place where it is ok to present mathematic ideals that are still not well established. -- Taku (talk) 12:11, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

 * , can you specify a rule in Wikipedia that you mean here? Eozhik (talk) 12:15, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

 * That would be Reliable sources, Notability and OR. These policies are general policies but the common interpretation here to math articles is that you cannot present the theory or construction that is significantly beyond what is in textbooks, regardless of the mathematical soundness of such an extension . —- Taku (talk) 13:19, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

 * , I don't see this "you cannot present the theory or construction that is significantly beyond what is in textbooks, regardless of the mathematical soundness of such an extension" or anything equivalent to this, in these references. And this is a big news for me. If, as you say, this is a common attitude here, why isn't this stated directly in the rules? And how can I verify what you say, if this is not written? Eozhik (talk) 14:30, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
 * They are general policies and so you can’t find a rule like that explicitly; but the gist of those policy is that a Wikipedia is a place to present facts well established in literature. This is why papers authored by you cannot be enough; they may be reliable from the mathematical point of view but they are not reliable in the Wikipedia sense (as they are primary sources). Textbooks are not primary and so if the construction like stereotype group algebra can be found in textbooks, they can appear in Wikipedia; since that’s not the case, I removed it from here. I have also asked for opinions from other editors at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Mathematics so that we can be sure my interpretation of the policies is correct and common. -- Taku (talk) 14:49, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

, this is a very strong statement: , so your point is that a Wikipedia article must describe only what is written in textbooks, right? Eozhik (talk) 12:04, 8 April 2020 (UTC) Yes. Textbooks or some major monographs. ... -- Taku (talk) 12:11, 8 April 2020 (UTC) It requires proof. Eozhik (talk) 15:00, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

 * The proof would be a common practice; in Wikipedia we routinely remove original research, i,e,, something not in textbooks. The removal is justified in the ground that Wikipedia is a place to present well-established facts.—— Taku (talk) 12:30, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

 * This is not original research:"The proof would be a common practice; in Wikipedia we routinely remove original research, i,e,, something not in textbooks." This is a material of peer-reviewed scientific journals. And whether the facts are well-established, or not "The removal is justified in the ground that Wikipedia is a place to present well-established facts."— is decided by editorial boards of these journals. If Wikipedia has its own understanding of this issue, this must be reflected in the local rules. Eozhik (talk) 15:00, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

 * It is indeed the common understanding in Wikipedia that a math article should be written mainly based on textbook references, instead of papers in a journal. It is of course fine and important to mention some ongoing research but the math articles themselves need not go too much beyond what can be found in widely-used textbooks. For math (and other scientific fields), textbooks differentiates what is considered most standard from what isn't. For example, it is possible to develop calculus based on the notion of infinitesimal but that's not the standard approach in standard textbooks on calculus, even if you can back up the infinitesimal theory based on (non-standard) calculus textbooks. The reason we need to limit ourselves to textbooks not what is mathematically possible is because, again, Wikipedia is a place to present well-established facts in the manner that is widely considered standard. Anyone, if competent, can do math research and can publish their results; that does not automatically mean they are part of mainstream mathematics. Usually textbooks are the best way to what is considered most standard. -- Taku (talk) 11:18, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

 * I don't see here evidence that this is a common understanding. I see only your understanding, . And this understanding contradicts to what I see here in Wikipedia, and to the usual encyclopedic traditions all over the world. There are lots of things reflected in encyclopedias without references to textbooks. And this is also solipsism. Eozhik (talk) 12:36, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

 * The evidence would be the style of other math articles; in Wikipedia, math articles are typically written based on materials from textbooks, *not* research papers. "what I see here in Wikipedia"; which math article is primary written based on research papers? To give just one example, group ring is clearly written based on textbooks. So are Banach algebra, Haar measures, etc. etc. Also, no encyclopedia including https://www.encyclopediaofmath.org/index.php/Main_Page has an entry on stereotype space. -- Taku (talk) 22:25, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

, your problem is that you don't check your statements. Here are some articles from the Soviet Mathematical Encyclopedia of 1977-1985 (later translated in Springer under the name “Encyclopedia of Mathematics”):

Condensing operator

Fano surface

Fréchet surface

Fubini theorem

Fourier indices of an almost-periodic function

Heegaard decomposition

Homeomorphism group

Hypercomplex functions

Suzuki 2-group

Superharmonic function

Tertiary ideal

There are no references to textbooks in these articles. And among Wikipedia's articles on these topics only two, as I can see, namely Fubini's theorem and Tertiary ideal have such references. The articles Fano surface, Fréchet surface, Homeomorphism group, for example, don't. Good possibilities for you to destroy other people's work. Eozhik (talk) 13:05, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

There are also articles in “Encyclopedia of Mathematics” which initially (in the Russian edition) didn't have references to textbooks, but later, after translation these references were added (in "Comments"):

Hodge conjecture

Partial geometry

Ceva theorem

Erdös problem

Ward theorem

Suzuki group

Urysohn-Brouwer lemma

Torelli theorems Wallman compactification

This is normal for futher editions and doesn't cancel the work of the authors of Mathematical Encyclopedia. Eozhik (talk) 13:18, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

 * But they are not Wikipedia articles. To quote myself, "in Wikipedia, math articles are typically written based on materials from textbooks, *not* research papers." Also, the Encyclopedia of Mathematics often omit textbook references. Also, topics likes Fubini theorem are very well covered in textbooks. -- Taku (talk) 18:32, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

 * , you are not a mathematician. You do not understand the logical arguments, you do not follow the accuracy of the spoken and you do not hesitate to say absurd things:"But they are not Wikipedia articles." Let us try to bet again? I claim that in my two posts, prior to your reply, there are references to Wikipedia articles. And this "Also, the Encyclopedia of Mathematics often omit textbook references." — apparently must be understood as if initially those articles contained references to textbooks, but after translation those references were omited. That is not true, : there were no such references initially. And my point is that this is normal. There is no rule in human tradition to supply each encyclopedic article (on mathematics or not, this doesn't matter) with references to textbooks. You should read this attentively before replying next time. Eozhik (talk) 04:08, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia has its own rules; if you find those rules not normal then you need to find a consensus to change those rules. I said "But they are not Wikipedia articles." because I was referring to a common practice in Wikipedia; examples from the other encyclopedia do not make a strong refutation to my claim. —- Taku (talk) 19:17, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

 * Comment: In general, Taku is right that we shouldn’t stray too far from “standard” (in the sense of most reliable secondary/tertiary sources use) treatment. I don’t think that we should be over-reliant on textbooks and we should take care to adhere to WP:NOTTEXTBOOK, but at the same time the use of published secondary sources shouldn’t be based on anything that could be considered WP:FRINGE or not widely accepted.I haven’t looked at the disputed content in this particular case, but it’s reasonable to impose some kind of mainstream view for an established topic like this. I have left you a note on your talk page about the personal attack above on . Please don’t make such ad hominem arguments nor personal statements about editors. — MarkH21talk 02:00, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * , I replied. Eozhik (talk) 07:25, 15 April 2020 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Government Center station (Miami)

Article title
This article should be moved to another title to make place for a disambiguation page containing this article and I just can't figure out a proper name to move to. --SirJective 14:53, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Government Center Station (Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority)

Future All Aboard Florida Station
I've editing this article in preperation for the planned All Aboard Florida station at this location. If it is built, this article will likely have to be renamed, with the MDT station being a part of the Intercity Rail Station like with Pennsylvania Station (New York City) and London Paddington station. If the project falls apart, then this is logical place to have a footnote about it instead of a stub article floating around.-  Aalox  (Say Hello • My Work) 11:25, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Adrienne Arsht Center (Metromover station) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 17:00, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

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Clarification
The station layout and the diagram don't seem clear to me. How can it be that there is a Metromover station at ground level? Are there any pictures of this set-up? Since the Metromover is above the grade of the street, does that mean it starts on the ground and then quickly rises to another level or is the description and diagram incorrect? In pictures, I only see three rail levels: the Metromover rails on the first level above the street, a mezzanine level, and then he Metrorail rails at the top level. --Criticalthinker (talk) 08:31, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay, I was able to find that the Metromover lines are all on the same level, so the diagram was incorrect and I fixed it. If anyone feels the labeling of the different levels is incorrect, feel free to fix the numbers.  I guess you could add "1F" to "G" a sort of "1F/G" if you feel strongly about it. --Criticalthinker (talk) 10:04, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Government Center station (Miami)


text: User talk:68.160.238.65

title: User talk:68.160.238.65


text:
...And Then There Were Three...

...And Then There Were Three... (stylised in all lowercase) is the ninth studio album by the English rock band Genesis. It was released on 31 March 1978 by Charisma Records and is their first recorded as a trio of singer/drummer Phil Collins, keyboardist Tony Banks, and bassist/guitarist Mike Rutherford, following the departure of guitarist Steve Hackett. The album marked a shift in the band's sound, mixing elements of their progressive rock roots with more accessible material, and Collins contributing to more of the group's songwriting.

The album received mixed reviews from critics, but reached  on the UK Albums Chart and   on the US Billboard 200. The lead single "Follow You Follow Me" became their highest charting at that point, reaching  in the UK and   in the US. The album was certified platinum by the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) in 1988 for selling one million copies in the US. To further promote it, Genesis toured worldwide with live guitarist Daryl Stuermer and drummer Chester Thompson, both of whom would become mainstays of the band's touring lineup for the next three decades. The album was remixed in 2007 as part of the Genesis 1976–1982 box set in 5.1 surround sound and a new stereo mix by Nick Davis.

Background
In July 1977, the Genesis line-up of drummer and vocalist Phil Collins, keyboardist Tony Banks, bassist Mike Rutherford, guitarist Steve Hackett, and touring drummer Chester Thompson completed their tour in support of their eighth studio album, Wind & Wuthering. The band proceeded to edit and mix their second live album, Seconds Out, in August 1977, during which time Hackett left the band to pursue a solo career. In 1975, he had released a successful solo album, Voyage of the Acolyte, featuring several members of Genesis. Increasingly frustrated by the band's lack of interest in his ideas, he decided to leave the group. Since Genesis had recently performed at Madison Square Garden, Hackett felt the group had reached its pinnacle and thus he had no reason to continue performing with them. His departure was not made public until 8 October, when Collins, Banks, and Rutherford were promoting Seconds Out (and had finished working on their ninth album as Genesis, titled ...And Then There Were Three...). The trio were confident they could carry on, as they had formed the backbone of several Genesis classics, including the "Apocalypse in 9/8" section of "Supper's Ready", the instrumental part of "The Cinema Show" and the basics of A Trick of the Tail (written while Hackett was working on his first solo album). They also agreed not to hire a replacement for Hackett, choosing instead to perform all instrumental work on their albums themselves going forward.

Writing and recording
Rehearsals began at Shepperton Studios for around six weeks. In September 1977, the remaining three members returned to Relight Studios in Hilvarenbeek, Netherlands to write and record their new album, the same venue as used for the Wind & Wuthering album. The group wished to record in a new location, but they could not find a studio that fit their needs and did not wish to travel too far from England. Rutherford wished to remain in London, but noted recording abroad was their "one tax concession". Joining the group was audio engineer and co-producer David Hentschel who had worked on the band's past two albums. Genesis also shared production duties and are credited on the album's sleeve. According to Rutherford, the material was recorded in two weeks. The band considered auditioning new guitarists or utilising a studio guitarist for the album, but Rutherford felt confident enough in his skills to take on the lead guitar parts himself, feeling he would enjoy the challenge of doing so. Banks noticed recording as a three-member band was an easier and more pleasurable experience than before as each member had a clearly defined role, which reduced the risk of personnel clashes along the way. Rutherford became aware that with three members, the basic tracks came across as sparse and not so easy to understand until the overdubs were recorded on top of them. Following the recording, the group mixed the album at Trident Studios in London.

Banks and Rutherford remained the more dominant songwriters with four and three songs written by them respectively, one from Banks and Collins, and three tracks written by all three members. Collins had settled down with his wife and two children in South Ealing, meaning he did not find much time to bring new songs to the sessions. Rutherford later said he was impressed the group wrote "Follow You Follow Me", as they had had difficulty writing songs that worked within a 3–4 minute framework. The majority of the album was formed of pre-written songs, not ones developed from jams and improvisations. Collins later thought the album lacked "rich, jazzy pieces" like "Los Endos" from A Trick of the Tail with its merge of rhythm and melody, but could not contribute such ideas as it was difficult to play the drums in his flat in Ealing with his wife and two children. The group were still growing in popularity in the United States and did not have a hit single, which Banks later admitted was a struggling point for them. The original album track order swapped "Undertow" with "Many Too Many" and "Scenes from a Night's Dream", before it was changed as the band felt it flowed better.

Sleeve design
As with their past three studio albums, the album cover and packaging was designed by Storm Thorgerson and Aubrey Powell of Hipgnosis. Thorgerson later said the cover was "trying to tell a story by the traces left by the light trails". The photograph was shot using time-lapse to represent the "comings and goings" in the album's lyrics, and over the change in personnel.

Writing
The album marked a change in the band's sound, moving from their progressive rock roots towards shorter, more concise songs. The motivation for this was to enable more musical ideas to be put on a single album, and to act as a response to the newly emerging punk rock and new wave scenes, where short and concise songs were standard. Collins recognised how this decision gave the impression that Genesis was aiming to become "a singles band" that prioritised commercial success over artistic credibility, but maintained that the new material remained "fundamentally the same". Rutherford in particular wanted to forge his own style and not copy Hackett's distinctive guitar tones, so the album was more dominated by Banks' keyboards, with sparser and simpler guitar parts.

Side one
"Down and Out", one of the three tracks written collectively, was created during the band's rehearsals. Thompson found its more complex time signature difficult to reproduce on stage at first as Collins could not explain the riff and rhythm which Rutherford noted merely "added to the confusion". Collins wrote the lyrics, which concern American record labels who drop artists when they are no longer in fashion; the chorus is spoken from the artists's view and the verses from the label.

The band had originally planned to develop and arrange Banks's song "Undertow" further, but its basic track of guitar, drums and piano, coupled with its simple chorus, was strong enough to keep as it was. Banks plays a Yamaha electric grand piano on the track which also incorporates voice loops made by the band that were kept "low-key and subtle" in the final mix. Banks had written a two-minute introduction to the song, but recalled disagreement from the other members as there were enough keyboard parts on the album. The section was reworked and used as a part of "From the Undertow", a track on Banks's first solo album A Curious Feeling (1979).

The lyrics to "Ballad of Big" were written by Collins. The introduction contains a wobbly guitar effect created by Rutherford whereby he rubbed his guitar strings with pieces of metal, giving it a "slightly Eastern strain". The end of the track has Banks and himself duelling between the Yamaha electric piano and his Roland guitar synthesiser.

For "Snowbound", Collins originally recorded his drum part at a considerably faster pace before the group decided to slow them down in order to fit the style of the song. Collins and Rutherford described it as a romantic song, with its lyrics about a man who wears a snowman outfit to hide from people but while inside, becomes paranoid and finds he cannot get out.

While Banks was writing "Burning Rope", he decided to shorten the track rather than stretch its arrangements into an extended piece as he wished to avoid repeating himself and drawing comparisons to his ten-minute "One for the Vine" from Wind & Wuthering. It features a lead guitar solo from Rutherford that he found was a challenge to produce in the wake of Hackett's departure, but was pleased with the final result and called it his best on the album.

Side two
The original title to "Deep in the Motherlode" was "Heavy". Rutherford uses a bottleneck slide guitar which he was inexperienced with at first to the point of placing it "on the wrong hand".

"Many Too Many" features more lead guitar work from Rutherford, who felt less confident about his playing compared to the months after the album's release and had practised further. Once the basic tracks had been put down, the group were still unsure on how to finish the song and sought more arrangements to complete it, including a string sound Banks played on a Polymoog. At one point, they considered using orchestral instruments for the track but they never tried it. Banks, who penned the song's lyrics, recalled an issue Collins had with singing the word "mama" in the chorus; Banks had to reassure him that he could sing it. Banks also said in an interview that he actually played the string part on the Mellotron (its last appearance on a Genesis album) and a Roland string synth, as he felt "the basic string sound on the Polymoog isn't that great a string imitation".

"Scenes from a Night's Dream" is based on a childhood dream, itself inspired by the cartoon strip character Little Nemo which Collins had bought a book on for his brother. The song developed from a musical idea from Banks who wrote the first draft of its lyrics, but he gave up halfway through as he felt they were unsuitable. The band instead settled on a set of lyrics that Collins offered during down time while mixing at Trident Studios that brought in a different melody and more harmonies.

"Say It's Alright Joe", written by Rutherford and the penultimate track recorded for the album, is a torch song about an alcoholic who goes into a drunken stupor. The guitarist intended the track to be a "piss-take on the Dean Martin 'set 'em up Joe' alcoholic style'", but thought it was not going to work until Banks added his keyboard overdubs and the band started mixing the track, at which point it "came to life".

The introduction to "The Lady Lies" was meant to have a "strippers feel to it. Hence the title".

Genesis deliberately planned to close the album on a "lighter note" as a contrast to a heavier track, so they placed "Follow You Follow Me" at the end. This was the only track on the album that had been written during the rehearsal stage, and went through numerous guises before the group settled on a three-minute song. Hentschel was dismissive of the song, but prepared an initial mix and presented it to the staff at Atlantic Records, who recognised it as a potential hit single for the band. The song was remixed and included on the album. The lyrics were written by Rutherford and were inspired by his wife. He later said it was the easiest set of lyrics he had written, spending "about ten minutes" on it.

Release
...And Then There Were Three... was released in the UK on 31 March 1978 and in the US on 28 March on Atlantic Records. It reached  on the UK Albums Chart during a 32-week stay on the chart and   on the US Billboard 200. The album continued to sell, and was certified gold by the Recording Industry Association of America on 31 May 1978 for 500,000 copies sold in the US. It reached platinum status on 11 February 1988 for selling one million copies. The album was considered a commercial breakthrough for Genesis, as it brought in sufficiently large audiences to be able to make a profit from touring, which before then had always run at a loss.

Genesis released two singles from ...And Then There Were Three.... The lead single, "Follow You Follow Me", became their most successful since their formation, peaking at  in the UK. A digitally remastered version was released on CD in 1994 on Virgin in Europe and Atlantic in the US and Canada. A SACD / DVD double disc set (including new 5.1 and Stereo mixes) was released on 2 April 2007. It was released in the US and Canada as part of the Genesis 1976–1982 box set. This includes the album in remixed stereo and surround sound, and related video tracks. The only exception is the track "Say It's Alright Joe", which was not remixed because the band was unable to locate the multitrack recordings.

Critical reception
In an April 1978 review for Melody Maker, reporter Chris Welch praised the album as "strong, confident" that is "as good as any they have made in the band's post-Gabriel years". Welch noted the songs have "a sense of purpose" and come with "a remarkably powerful sound", and picked "Ballad of Big" as his favourite track. A review in The Town Talk praised the group for filling the gap Hackett left "confidently" and picks "Down and Out" as claim of their survival. The rest of the album is "a tapestry of imaginary landscapes filled with the struggling mythic heroes that Genesis has learned to depict so well". Gary Mullinax for The Morning News thought the album sounded little different to Wind & Wuthering and noted the dominance of Banks's keyboards over Rutherford's guitars, with "the same dreamy wall-of-sound music with the same high-pitched vocals" from Collins. He concluded that Genesis succeed at points on the album but thought many songs on it fail to go anywhere, "blending into one another like some sort of hip musak". Charley Walters, writing in Circus, said that despite the exits of Gabriel and Hackett, Genesis have sacrificed "neither direction nor quality". The album, he thought, has "hard, almost ominous" tracks like "Down and Out" and "softer, more melodic" ones like "Say It's Alright Joe", all of which create "a magical, mystical sound that sets them apart from the numerous similar but usually inferior European art-rock ensembles". He names Banks as the one of the trio most responsible for their sound with his "rich" arrangements complemented by Rutherford's restrained guitar work which is "more felt than heard" which worked well to his praise on "Burning Rope". Walters, however, thought Collins's vocals has shortcomings that lacks expansion or breathtaking moments, though is a drummer who can still be melodic. The Globe and Mail opined that "the songs still sound like Tennyson set to music, but it's all done with precision and there isn't a sound which is not beautiful, fat, ornate and quite lush".

Other reviewers were more critical of the album, including Jon Pareles and Village Voice critic Robert Christgau, who said that "without lead guitarist Steve Hackett, the band loses its last remaining focal point; the rest is double-tracking. Hence a sound as mushy as the dread Moody Blues, with fewer excuses." In Crawdaddy, Michael Bloom found Banks's arrangements and keyboard sounds poor, saying the melodies tend to "practically vanish" and "slip through your fingers". He also declared Rutherford's lead guitar playing "unbearably clumsy" compared to Hackett but acknowledged that Rutherford remains a "rare bassist" and his 12-string guitar playing reminded the reviewer of Trespass (1970) and the surrounding period in the band's history. Bloom picked out "The Lady Lies" as Banks's strongest contribution both musically and lyrically, comparing the composition and lyrical message to "One for the Vine" on Wind & Wuthering, and also highlighted "Deep in the Motherlode" as a strong track, but found Collins's singing "uniformly insipid" and concluded that the album is "less of a disappointment than an interminable frustration". In his review for Rolling Stone, he panned Hackett's then-current album Please Don't Touch!, but also said that his ex-band fared even worse, concluding that "this contemptible opus is but the palest shadow of the group's earlier accomplishments."

Retrospective appraisals have also been mixed. In The Rolling Stone Album Guide, J. D. Considine deemed it "a genuine pop breakthrough" that "does hone the playing so that there's less empty flash and wasted energy", while MusicHound Rock (1996) said it "put Genesis on the radio with 'Follow You, Follow Me' but lacked the meaty songcraft and ambitious arrangements of its predecessors".

Tour
Genesis embarked on the ...And Then There Were Three... Tour between March and December 1978, including nearly 100 shows covering Europe, the US and Japan, with only a single UK show at Knebworth Park on 24 June. The US dates were important as they would allow the band to recoup touring costs, which were running at around $25,000 a day.

The group needed an additional touring member to cover all the material, but Rutherford only wanted to play lead guitar on the new songs from ...And Then There Were Three... and return to bass and twelve-string for everything else. The successful applicant would have to play bass on the new material and cover Hackett's old lead parts. They first approached Weather Report's Alphonso Johnson, but he was primarily a bassist and his style did not fit in with the rest of the band. Johnson suggested instead that they consider jazz-fusion guitarist Daryl Stuermer, who was already a Genesis fan. He tried out an audition in New York, playing bass on "Down and Out" and lead guitar on "Squonk" from 1976's A Trick of the Tail and was immediately hired. "The Fountain of Salmacis", the closing track from 1971's Nursery Cryme was reintroduced into the live set, so Stuermer could take a song with a distinctive Hackett solo and put his own stamp on it. "Say It's Alright Joe" was performed with Collins in character wearing a raincoat and using Banks' keyboards as a makeshift bar.

The tour had several breaks so the band could have time with their family at home. Collins later said the tour was "an end of an era" and thought the group did not need to play live as much in the future. The tour was a major factor in Collins' divorce from his first wife, as she felt he was away from home too often and needed support at home. A row with his wife cancelled plans for her and their children to join Collins on the Japanese leg, and Collins recalled: "I went to Japan, and spent ten days drunk. I hated every minute of it. I couldn't sing and everyone was concerned about my welfare although there was nothing anyone could do about it."

Track listing
All songs arranged and performed by Genesis.

Additional tracks
Additional songs recorded during the …And Then There Were Three… sessions

Personnel
Credits are adapted from the album's 1978 and 2007 liner notes.

Genesis
 * Tony Banks – keyboards
 * Phil Collins – drums, vocals
 * Mike Rutherford – basses, guitars

Production
 * Genesis – production
 * David Hentschel – production, engineer
 * Pierre Geofroy Chateau – production assistant
 * Steve Short – mixing assistant
 * Geoff Banks – equipment
 * Andy Mackrill – equipment
 * Dale Newman – equipment
 * Hipgnosis – sleeve design, photographs

title: ...And Then There Were Three...


text:
Montague

Montague may refer to:

Australia

 * Montague Road, Adelaide
 * Montague, a neighbourhood in South Melbourne, Victoria
 * Montague Street Bridge, South Melbourne
 * Montague Street light rail station, South Melbourne

Canada

 * Montague, Ontario
 * Smiths Falls-Montague Airport
 * Montague, Prince Edward Island
 * Lower Montague, Prince Edward Island
 * Montague-Kilmuir, an electoral district
 * Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia
 * Montague Harbour
 * Montague Harbour Marine Provincial Park
 * Montague Road, Prince Edward Island

United Kingdom

 * Montague Road, London
 * Montague Street, London
 * Shepton Montague Somerset, England
 * Montagu House, Bloomsbury, the first home of the British Museum, also known as Montague House
 * Montagu House, Portman Square, built for Elizabeth Montagu on Portman Square
 * Montagu House, Whitehall, another London mansion

United States

 * Montague Island (Alaska)
 * Montague, California
 * Montague Airport (California)
 * County Route G4 (California), the Montague Expressway, in the Silicon Valley
 * Montague station in San Jose, California
 * Montague, Massachusetts
 * Montague Road, Mass south of Montague Center
 * Montague Center Historic District
 * Gill–Montague Bridge
 * Montague City Road Bridge
 * Montague Township, Michigan
 * Montague, Michigan
 * Henry Montague House in Kalamazoo, Michigan, which was listed on the National Register of Historic Places in 1983
 * Montague, Missouri
 * Montague Township, New Jersey
 * Milford–Montague Toll Bridge
 * Montague, New York
 * Brooklyn, New York
 * Montague Street Tunnel
 * Montague-Court Building
 * Montague, North Carolina
 * Montague County, Texas
 * Montague, Texas
 * Montague Independent School District

Elsewhere

 * 535 Montague, a minor planet orbiting the Sun
 * Montague Island (disambiguation)

People with the name

 * Montague (given name)
 * Montague (surname)

Fictional characters

 * Montague family, one of the main families in the play Romeo and Juliet by William Shakespeare
 * Monty Bodkin, a fictional character in three novels of English comic writer P. G. Wodehouse
 * Montague (Johnny Test) the mouse, a cartoon character
 * Montague Egg, a fictional amateur detective
 * Dr. John Montague, one of the main characters in Gothic horror novel The Haunting of Hill House
 * Montague "Monty" D'Ysquith Navarro, a main character in the musical comedy A Gentleman's Guide to Love and Murder
 * The real name of Duck the Great Western Engine, a character from Thomas the Tank Engine & Friends

Other uses in arts, entertainment, and media

 * Montague (album), a 2020 album by Hov1
 * "Montague Road", a song by Laura Veirs on her album The Triumphs and Travails of Orphan Mae
 * I Capuleti e i Montecchi (The Capulets and the Montagues), an opera by Bellini
 * Montagues and Capulets, also known as Dance of the Knights, from Prokofiev's ballet Romeo and Juliet

Schools

 * Montague Regional High School, Canada
 * Montague Road School, England, which was replaced by The National Academy

Ships

 * HMS Montague (1654)
 * Montague (brigantine), patrol and settlement vessel, Nova Scotia, 1758-1760
 * USS Montague (AKA-98), Andromeda-class attack cargo ship

Other uses

 * Montague Bicycles
 * Montague grammar, an approach to natural language semantics
 * Montague Hospital, South Yorkshire, England
 * Montague's harrier, a migratory bird of prey
 * Montague (horse)

title: Montague


text:
Talk:...And Then There Were Three...

Dead link
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

 * http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/musicreviews/2285/genesis-in-surround.html
 * In Duke (album) on 2011-03-17 17:12:46, 404 Not Found
 * In Genesis 1976–1982 on 2011-03-19 20:19:59, 404 Not Found
 * In ...And Then There Were Three... on 2011-05-20 21:27:14, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 22:20, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Dead link 2
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

 * http://www.genesis-news.com/genesis/reviews/sacds/1976-1982.htm
 * In Duke (album) on 2011-03-17 17:12:46, 404 Not Found
 * In Genesis 1970–1975 on 2011-03-19 20:19:59, 404 Not Found
 * In ...And Then There Were Three... on 2011-05-20 21:27:27, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 22:21, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Dead link 3
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

 * http://www.genesis-news.com/genesis/reviews/sacds/interview-with-nick-davis.htm
 * In Duke (album) on 2011-03-17 17:12:46, 404 Not Found
 * In Genesis 1970–1975 on 2011-03-19 20:19:59, 404 Not Found
 * In ...And Then There Were Three... on 2011-05-20 21:27:56, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 22:21, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Dead link 4
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

 * http://www.blender.com/guide/back-catalogue/54728/133-then-there-were-three-133.html
 * In ...And Then There Were Three... on 2011-05-20 21:28:00, 404 Not Found
 * In ...And Then There Were Three... on 2011-05-31 04:32:04, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 04:32, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Dead link 5
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

 * http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/genesis/albums/album/104990/review/5944592/and_then_there_were_three
 * In ...And Then There Were Three... on 2011-05-20 21:27:13, 404 Not Found
 * In ...And Then There Were Three... on 2011-05-31 04:32:12, 404 Not Found

--JeffGBot (talk) 04:32, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 21:29, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

Album's Status as a Progressive Rock album
Alright, Since someone doesn't feel that this album is a progressive rock album, and deletes all edits to show that it is, citing them as "unsourced and undiscussed" even though I've not seen any discussion or sources he's used to support his edits that say it isn't one, lets discuss it now. I want to know what qualities this album lacks that prevent it from being a Progressive Rock album, or what qualities it does have that disqualify it from such a genre classification.

Is it it's lack of longer songs? that can't be it, because then why is Yes's Tormato album considered Prog when it only has songs ranging from 2 to 7 minutes, or Kansas albums such as Point of Know Return, or Monolith, or even Audio-Visions which none of those albums have songs that pass 7 minutes and 20 seconds. or Gentle Giant's Octopus album, without one of the shortest prog albums, clocking in at just under 35 minutes long with songs that range between 3 and 6 minutes.

so what else could it be? Could it be the albums fair share of pop songs (and I use that term loosely, I consider them more rock than pop) and to be fair it does have a couple, "Follow You Follow Me", "Many too Many" come to mind. and I would never argue that its a purely progressive rock album. Its definitely not. But you give me "Follow You Follow Me" as a reason why ATTWT is a pop album, and I'll point to songs like "Down And Out" which, while the song does have some more commercial pop tendencies, it also has an odd time signature that is very much qualifies it as a prog song in my eyes anyway, and if you disagree, I recommend you | hear the song again. On top of that, I'll also point to the song | Ballad of Big, while its not my favorite song on the album, Its still definitely rooted in the Prog genre, the differences between the verse melody and the chorus, its absolutely a prog song. And there's plenty of other examples of prog on this album, "| Burning Rope", "| Deep in The Motherlode", "| The Lady Lies", and even "| Say Its Alright, Joe". They're all very much prog songs, albeit more on the poppy side of Progressive rock, but still very much on the more progressive side.

And if the reason that the album isn't classified as a progressive album is because of its more pop leanings, then why is Duke, an album that is arguably even more of a pop rock album than this one still classified as Progressive rock? (which I agree with, Duke is definitely still a progressive rock album, but that's not the point) Also, I can point out bands like Asia who are very much Pop rock/hard rock in style, but still considered progressive rock, and their music is a lot more pop driven than this album. Also Styx albums like Paradise Theater, and Kilroy Was Here. While I once again agree with them being considered Progressive rock, Much of their music is rooted in more of a pop rock sound, again, even more so than this album.

I could go on and on, but I'm going to stop there for now, and ask the question that I posed in the beginning of this post again. What about this album disqualifies it from being considered Progressive Rock?

Sovphil13 (talk) 01:34, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

 * Let's be clear here: You made changes to genres without discussing the issue or citing reliable sources. Do not change genres without discussing the issue or citing reliable sources. You've been given consensus warnings on that repeatedly. The warnings reflect Wikipedia's policy on this issue, as does WP:GWAR. No, I do not need to demonstrate/prove that your opinion is wrong. No, I did not say that your opinion is wrong. I said -- as others have -- that you must either discuss such changes to establish a consensus before making the change or cite reliable sources for the change.

 * If you have reliable sources calling the album progressive rock, cite them and you're done.

 * If you don't have such sources (can't find any, don't want to look, whatever) discuss why you think it is progressive rock. ("What else could it be?" is not a meaningful argument, BTW.)

 * The fulcrum of the question is that you are discussing a turning point for the band. Few would dispute (and sources fully support) that the Gabriel years are the definition of progressive rock. Few would label the mid-80s Collins years as progressive rock. This album -- post-Gabriel, post-Hackett -- needed to generate bank for the band, and it did. It kept the group together. Is there some progressive rock in some of the songs? IMO, sure, but that doesn't make it a progressive rock album any more than "Follow You Follow Me" makes it No Jacket Required. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 13:28, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

 * First, I want to make it clear that I did not say "What else could it be" in a way that you seem to imply. I was not saying "If Its not Progressive Rock, what else could it be", which is what it seems like you think thats what I tried to use as an argument. Its not. I was using that as a segue into/introduce a new point for my argument, moving from the point about the song lengths to talking about the songs themselves.

 * Second, I don't see whats the importance of mentioning about the Peter Gabriel era Genesis being quintessential Prog vs 80's Phil Collins Genesis being pop rock, which honestly neither statement really has bearing on the status of this album. in fact, you specifically said Mid-80's Phil Collins-era. This album is not Mid-80's Phil Collins era Genesis. this is from 1978, I fully understand where you're coming from that after Steve Hackett left the band started to push for a more radio friendly sound, Its true, but at the same time, they didn't right away abandon Progressive rock. and if, for the sake of argument, they did, and this album shouldn't be considered Prog, then what about Duke, their 1980 album? That album is still largely considered a Progressive Rock album, their last Progressive rock album. (an assessment that again, I do agree with)

 * I also want to address the part where you say "Is there some progressive rock in some of the songs? IMO, sure, but that doesn't make it a progressive rock album any more than "Follow You Follow Me" makes it No Jacket Required" Okay. I originally wasn't going to bring this up, but I will for the sake of argument. Let's talk about the 80's era Genesis. While it largely became a pop act in the 80's, it would still not be fair to say that they 100% abandoned prog in the 80's either. notice I said 100% abandoned, because they largely did. but there's still 1 or 2 songs of each respective album like "Home by the Sea/Second Home by the Sea" off of their 1983 self-titled album, or the 10 minute "Domino" off of Invisible touch. Where I'm going with this is, while those 80's albums may have 1 or 2 songs that could be considered Progressive Rock, with And Then There Were Three, that's half the album (really more than half since 6 songs out of 11). So that should absolutely be taken into account when genre classifying an album.

 * lastly, I want to know what the significance was of comparing "Follow You Follow Me", to No Jacket Required, A Phil Collins solo album. because that made absolutely no sense to me.

 * Update: Checking the page history, I realize that it wasn't you who took off the Progressive rock genre label initially, and I apologize for assuming that maybe it was you. But before March, "Progressive rock" was one of the album's genre classifications on here.

 * Sovphil13 (talk) 19:16, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

 * If you think Genesis ditched prog straight after Hackett left, listen to "Duke's Travels / Duke's End" to change your mind. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  16:41, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

 * We are not discussing whether or not one song is a particular genre. We are discussing the album. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 03:19, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

 * As much as I love Duke's Travels and the entire Duke album (Its my favorite Genesis album), and you are right,, that it is very much prog, is also right, its not relevant to the conversation about whether or not this album is prog. now if you want to comment about this album, you'd be very much welcome to discuss it with us.
 * Sovphil13 (talk) 04:05, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

 * I haven't seen much discussion here. I've been waiting for someone to try and counter what I'm saying. please. anyone can chime in at any time. Sovphil13 (talk) 19:53, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

 * If there's a good source saying it's progressive, add it. Simple as! LowSelfEstidle (talk) 18:26, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

 * I've been trying for a while, since this whole thing started, the thing is, what would be a suitable source? Like, a professional review wouldn't outright state that this is a prog album, and I don't expect them too. instead I see a lot of them say something like, and I'm paraphrasing here, the album "Blends their signature prog sound with a more commercial pop sound". hell, it even says that in the wikipedia article, either in the what I call the "summary" at the top, or in the Background section. I can't remember which. so if that's enough for me to cite to change the genre, I'll do it. But if not, what else can I use? would the website Allmusic work? in the in the album page for [| ...And Then There Were Three...], it has "Prog Rock" listed as one of the styles for the album, And on the Discogs website, it also lists "Prog Rock" as one of the styles for the album. If one of those works, then great. tell me and I'll cite it and change the page accordingly. -Sovphil13 (talk) 04:25, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

 * It's entirely possible that there isn't a reliable source available.

 * Genres listed on Allmusic (i.e., the sidebar) are not considered reliable as they come from amazon and effectively have no editorial oversight behind them. The text at Allmusic generally is considered reliable. Please see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Music/Music_genres_task_force.

 * Discogs is a user-edited site, so it fails under WP:SPS.

 * For older (pre-2000) albums and songs, the best I've ever found are career retrospectives in reliable sources (Rolling Stone is quite good for this) and periodic "best of genre" lists is similarly top notch sources.

 * Career retrospectives likely popped up with their Hall of Fame induction a few years ago.

 * If "Jimmy's Rock Blog" lists it in his "Best Prog Rock Albums of All Time" it's meaningless. If RS lists it as one of the "Top 50 Progressive Rock Albums of the 70s", I'm sold.

 * While looking for your prog rock source, please do add cites for any other genres you find. I'd bet my eye teeth there are just as many reliable sources for pop and art rock as there are for progressive. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 12:34, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

 * I tried Rolling Stone before, but I didn't see any kind of review for it. I'm starting to think maybe they don't have anything on the album. even if they did, its probably them, bashing it, because why would late-70's Rolling Stone speak positive about an album from a prog band, or anything even remotely creative and outside the . I read the career retrospective, they named the album once, and mentioned that "Follow you Follow Me" was their first hit single or "pop hit" as they called it, but didn't even mention its stylistic shift from the previous albums. it could barely be considered a glance at the album.

 * As for the top 50 prog albums list, I don't see anybody anywhere putting this, or any Phil Collins-era Genesis album on their top 50 prog albums, aside from probably Trick of the Tail. Which is kinda sad, because the era Phil Collins-era from 1975-1980 is home to 4 really good prog albums, Including ...And Then There Were Three... though admittedly that's the weakest album of the 4, Still great though. but when people think Genesis and Prog, they think of the Peter Gabriel era first and foremost. and I totally see why.

 * and last, well I don't know if this is enough, but the Allmusic review, which by the way, most of these reviews are really short and barely cover anything. Its like one paragraph long. but it does state, basically the same thing I said it would before, That the album ventures towards the more straightforward pop sound that the band is known for in the 80s, without abandoning their prog elements. Not in so many words, but that's essentially what it said. If that's enough, let me know.

 * Sovphil13 (talk) 17:23, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

 * It's entirely possible that there isn't a reliable source available. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 17:34, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

 * So, I guess this brings us back to discussion. If there's no sources, then lets continue to talk about it and come to some kind of consensus. unless one of us manages to find something to support either case. -Sovphil13 (talk) 19:52, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

 * Also, I added an additional space between everyone's messages in this section to make it look more organized. I hope that's okay. feel free to revert it if it isn't. Sovphil13 (talk) 19:54, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

 * At the moment, there is no consensus that I can see.

 * Additionally, I don't see any source of new information that here to change my mind. IMO, this album straddles the line. It has some progressive rock and some pop songs. I don't feel the album is progressive rock. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 03:45, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

 * As I said before, its definitely not a purely progressive rock album, and I'm not trying to argue it is. but that's why Wikipedia's genre section allows for more than one genre, as poppy as it is, Its still 50-60%% prog, I think that should count for something. the album does walk the line between pop rock and Prog, so does their album, Duke. so why not, as with Duke's article, classify it as both? Progressive Rock, Art rock, Pop rock. it doesn't even matter the order. Sovphil13 (talk) 06:48, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

 * I think I found a good compromise. If you're hesitant to call it Prog rock, What about if I label it Progressive Pop instead. like albums such as Supertramp's Breakfast in America, or ELO's Out of the Blue have been labelled by wikipedia.Sovphil13 (talk) 19:15, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

 * I don't think that a genre different that the one you wanted and I disputed is a "compromise". (If you think we should go to Albuquerque and I don't, that doesn't make Montreal a "compromise".)

 * I don't think it's a "progressive pop" album. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 01:58, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Prog rock genre warring
This article has seen a long string of editors trying to classify the album as progressive rock, but without sources. In the last four months, the genre warring has this history:
 * December 2019 – IP from Gravesend, Kent, UK removing references to pop rock and replacing with " Art rock, progressive rock, psychedelic rock"
 * December 2019 – User Misiek7PL adding prog rock
 * February 2020 – IP from St Petersburg, Russia adding prog rock
 * March 2020 – IP from Varekil, Sweden adding prog rock
 * April 2020 – IP from Tel Aviv, Israel adding prog rock
 * April 2020 – IPs from Curitaba, Brazil repeatedly adding prog rock

None of these editors cited a source for prog rock, which means the existing citations are not contradicted – the ones that say the album showed Genesis moving away from prog rock and toward pop rock. Binksternet (talk) 17:13, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Calling into question the validity of the Pop Rock citation
Upon reviewing the given citation and reading page 150 (and surrounding pages) of Bowler & Dray's biography of Genesis, there is no mention of the term "pop rock," or even a reference to the album as such. There are two references to "pop," both of which I will clarify. The first is a reference to "Follow You Follow Me" as a "lovely little pop song." However, as SummerPhD has previously clarified, we are not discussing the genre of a single song, we are discussing the genre of an album, and so such a citation would be insufficient for our purposes. The second reference is a quote from Tony Banks, which describes "most of the Genesis catalog" as "Pop music done with more subtlety," which is not specific to the album in question.

Unless a reliable source can be found for the "Pop rock" tag, the genre should be removed for failing to meet our standards. Denimspoon (talk) 15:44, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:...And Then There Were Three...


text:
Talk:The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street

Untitled
ana:D

Monsters are due on Maple Street

Mapleophobia
There's a Maple Street just a few blocks from my house in my neighborhood of Trucksville, Pennsylvania, a town in the vacinity of 25-30 miles southeast of Scranton and 10 miles east of Wilkes-Barre. That's scarry

Hello, McCarthyism, hello?
The theme section needs some work. The whole paranoia angle is clearly influenced by the McCarthy red-bating stuff. This episode aired in 1959 for god's sake.

 * I removed that Original Research WP:OR and instead added info that actually pertained to the episode rather than the Original Research that was inserted by an editor afflicted with some form of paranoia. Jtpaladin 21:32, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I added the claim back in tentatively- I found numerous film and media review sites that mention the red scare being a theme of the series in general and this episode specifically- I don't think that it's an unfair claim to make. However, I did trim down some of the unnecessary specifics, such as the trials which I think didn't bear mentioning. --Kuzaar-T-C- 12:57, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

A Wonderful Study of Man and Mind
This episode is certainly one of the most fascinating ones I've seen so far. There are very deep and fundamental messages in this episode and should definitely be viewed by all and discussed. There are many learning resources on the Internet, which anyone can find by typing the title in Google. Also, there is a very enlightening essay available at http://www.americanviewsabroad.org/monsters.html

More info
Agreed that the themes section needs work. Also, The teleplay appears standard in many jr. high english text books. Does anyone know more about that?

--76.91.247.43 (talk) 01:43, 18 October 2013 (UTC)--76.91.247.43 (talk) 01:43, 18 October 2013 (UTC)== New "Twilight Zone" episode homage == In the new series of "The Twilight Zone," there was episode that was a direct hompage to this, only instead of McCarthyism, it's subject was terrorism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.208.218.100 (talk • contribs)
 * Yup. That's what the "Remake" section is about. Travisl 03:31, 17 July 2007 (UTC the ones on Maple street were the aliens and the residents the residents were the monsters

with the twilight zone as a state of mind you can assume how scary this was''' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.238.35.72 (talk) 21:47, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Remake
I would really love to know some more about the remake perhaps a link to a sight detailing it? thanks, it sounds very intruiging ΤΕΡΡΑΣΙΔΙΩΣ (Ταλκ ) 06:23, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Take Out the Tag: Plot section does not "read ... like a story", it reports a story
In my humble opinion, the person who tagged the Plot section "This article reads more like a story than an encyclopedia entry", however many such sections s/he may have edited before, either has not read enough such Wikipedia sections, or is attempting to enforce narrowly "imdb Plot Summary"-like expectations which vast numbers of user-editors may not wish to have imposed on Wikipedia. There is nothing especially unencylopedic about it (that is to say, un-Wikipedia-like, as opposed to un-Britannica-like or un-imdb-like, etc.), nor for that matter do I see anything terribly POV about it. (Btw: How many stories begin, "When the story begins, ..."? — Or for that matter, as I see now that this section earlier began: "The episode begins in late summer. ..."?)

Note please that prior to this posting, I've had, so far as I know, absolutely no connection to this article before; nor, for that matter, do I recall ever having even edited a Plot section in any other Wikipedia article (exception I just found: one time I fixed the misuse of an accent mark — within a Plot section, as it happens). I simply came here to see whether this article would aptly and adequately describe the episode, such that I could refer a friend to it by way of illustrating the aspect of human nature to which it speaks — a common and reasonable enough use of Wikipedia in regard to literature, film, etc., I think — and hence am disturbed to find that someone apparently wants to pare down this type of plot description (eliminating "spoilers" and so forth?), to where people will no longer find Wikipedia useful for this purpose.

Note also, I most certainly assume good faith on the part of the editor who added the tag. I too have some very strong sensibilities as to what qualifies as encyclopedic (or good Wikipedia) content or style, and in similar fashion have made misc. edits in the past which represented my own good-faith attempts to bring in particular the style of some bits of writing on Wikipedia into conformity with encyclopedic style guidelines as I understand them. In this instance, however, I think the use of the tag — normally applied to entire articles; and most especially, not as I understand it intended for a section whose purpose is, in fact, to recap a story... — and, as I read it here, the intention its insertion appears to express, namely of whittling down this or any Plot section on Wikipedia to the kind of incomplete thumbnail sketch that one might find, for example, on imdb, inappropriate and worrisome. Please, let's take this tag down. IfYouDoIfYouDon't (talk) 05:41, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Casting Link Error - Mary Gregory
The Cast link for Mary Gregory is incorrect. The page currently links to an artist named Mary Gregory who died in 1908! The actress Mary Gregory (who is my wife's (singer Kama Ruby) Aunt by the way) has numerous film and television credits, including two other Twilight Zone episodes, The Lateness of the Hour and The Shelter. She was also in Harper, Sleeper, and numerous other films. Her IMDB bio is here: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0339889/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by MACCIFJ (talk • contribs) 07:16, 1 January 2021 (UTC)