text:
Talk:Blini

I don't get it! Are these blintzes or not?
"Blintz" redirects here, but the article then says "Should not be confused with blintzes ("blinchik" in Russian) also known as crepes or palatschinke."

Either they're the same or they're not, and there should be a different page.

107.3.140.21 (talk) 17:11, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

 * Blin - the flat thingy itself.
 * Blinchik - a blin was used to wrap some filling. Simple as. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 14:19, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Why "Blintz"? Article title should be changed...
Agree, was thoroughly confused for a while, aren't they almost exclusively known as blinis in English? I think this might be one of those cases, as with so many words that are different in American/British English where whatever word the article was created with, stays, but then there are so many inconsistencies further on in this text where blini is used - those would have to be changed to blintz. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.157.48.246 (talk) 13:55, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

blintz is the yiddish word for blini/mlyntsi, while the food is a slavic, not jewish, food. The name of the article is confusing and therefore needs to be changed. come to think of it, saying blini in a yiddish accent makes it sound like 'blintze', so its barely even a diffrent word.

agree with the proposition. could not find how to do it from the "edit" menu —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.209.237.79 (talk) 13:13, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

I also agree. Blini:Blintz :: Pancake:Burrito. Dissimilar. Skaizun (talk) 10:55, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Blintz??? It's some joke, right? It's 220K for "Blintz" vs. 1,5M for "Blini" in Google. Like, 7 times difference, and we choose "Blintz"? FeelSunny (talk) 06:53, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Blini and blinchiki
I'm, not sure about the distinction between blini and blinchiki. When I was in Russia, 'blini' were flat crepes (with a bit of baking soda in the batter; my host mother made them with sour milk, and I'm still puzzled as to why they didn't rise). A thicker version of the same batter was used for smaller, poofier, more pancake-like things which I can't recall the name of, but it didn't start with a 'b'.

 * I second that. As a Russian who ate blinis all my life (though rarely, because you can't say it's a staple food, more of the traditional one) - I am utterly confused at the classification in this article. Moreover, the only source for it is the similarly confusing and misinformed couple of encyclopedia articles that seem to reflect Jewish (or just a foreigner) take on Russian food. Moreover, the editor seems to read them very unattentively: "blintzes" refers exclusively to folded bliny with a filling, for example. In the "blini" article, the buckwheat-only claim is strange - for many decades the staple flour for blini is wheat. As for oladyi being common at the "modern cocktail parties"... well, maybe I wasn't invited to this kind of parties. (though on the second though, they do serve small pieces of blini with caviar or some such inside them, held with a skewer, at posh parties, but I don't think oladyi would be appropriate for this).
 * I can only state several points that are completely obvious to me as a consumer (don't know what the Western scientists say =):
 * 1) blini and blinchiki is one and the same. Blinchiki is diminutive form of blini. That said, prepared stuffed blini (little envelopes with meat, potatoes, cheese, vegetables etc. inside) are invariably called blinchiki. Or if you make small bliny (whether pouring less dough on a pan or in a crepe-maker), they would be too called blinchiki on account of their size.
 * 2) The vast majority of Russian people perceive thin crepe-like blini (20-30 cm wide, about a millimeter thick) as a default form. You can cook them thicker, of course, or use more "puffy" dough, if you want. Though it would seem to make them another dish, a Russian won't hesitate to call them bliny. Also, all blini are either non-sweet, or mildly sweet (compatible with main courses).
 * 3) The thick burger-like thingies are called oladyi or oladushki (same here, a diminutive form of the word). More yeast, thicker dough, more puffy in texture, and if made sweet - they are more so than bliny. You can add raisins to them.
 * 4) The most telling difference between bliny and oladyi is their size: bliny almost always take the whole surface of the pan (because of a thin dough), cook very fast (tens of seconds) and are flipped off the pan forming a stack, like crepes. Oladyi are generally cooked several at a time, take longer to cook and don't stack.
 * Please, anybody with the culinary knowledge (especially in making dough) edit the article! Thanks. 176.195.247.112 (talk) 22:25, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

bliny are also used to commemorate the recently deceased (at wake parties).

I've read that bliny were served at wakes, поминки, pominki, once but I don't think they are any more and for quite some time.
 * They are served at wakes, it is very very common. This practice is connected to Orthodox traditions (like these bands on the forehead of the deceased, don't know what they are called), but is followed by non-religious people too. For example, my family served bliny and kutya at our wakes, even though we are Buddhists. This is expected of the host of the wake. These dishes, served with Kisel (sweet starch drink), open the wake dinner.176.195.247.112 (talk) 22:34, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

''Buckwheat bliny ... forgotten during the times of the Soviet Union, because buckwheat requires a good deal of care to grow and process, and it became a rare commodity.''

Buckwheat bliny (гречишники) were indeed not to be seen during the (late) times of the SU, but not because buckwheat was a rare commodity. Quite the opposite -- buckwheat was one of the staple foods, widely used both in home cooking and in canteens (столовых). As a side dish (гарнир) it was as popular as potatoes or rice.

So I think the words because buckwheat requires a good deal of care to grow and process, and it became a rare commodity should be deleted. Whatever reasons there must have been for disappearance of buckwheat bliny scarcity of buckwheat was not one of them.
 * Note that buckwheat is still one of the most popular foods in Russia - it is swept off the shelves first if there are rumours of recession, Russia leads in its produciton, and the price rise for buckwheat after the 2010 summer fires was a national issue.176.195.247.112 (talk) 22:34, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Bliny are still served at wakes along with rise with raisins. But what I want to say, is that the first foto on the page is not of the bliny, but of olad'i, that is a different thing, they are thicker, as thick as 1 cm usually, while blin is like 2 mm.Cthulhoid 00:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

 * On the first photo there are оладьи, and on the 2nd and 3rd — блинчики. So a photo of блины in their pure form is still out :))
 * As for the funerals, in the course of my life I've been to quite a number of these sad events, and blini haven't been served once. Though not impossible it is nowhere near as common as кутья imo. —Sascha. 18:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
 * That depends on area and people, I think; I've eaten blini at a few wakes.--Mzabaluev 12:10, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Just curious, how are blintz stuffed? do you kind of wrap the cheese in them half cooked in a roll, and then fry them with the cheese at the ends exposed, or what? Thanks --Dagibit 03:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You make blini, then wrap the filling in them (minced meat, for example), then fry the envelopes to form a brown crust, cooking (or warming, in case of ham&cheese) the filling.176.195.247.112 (talk) 22:39, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

even more Blini confusion
My grandad is Lithuanian and sometimes when I went stayed round for dinner he'd cook me what he referred to as "steak and Blini". The blini he cooked were thin fritters of grated potato and onion with spices added... having read this article and the Lithuanian one I know Lithuanians have their own version of Blini- could anyone else confirm if they've eaten something similar? If not- does anyone know what I've been eating all this time?! Weenerbunny 14:50, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * What you describe sounds very much like Rösti to me --Sascha. 19:43, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds like you're describing Latkas --Dagibit 14:24, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * In Lithuania sometimes they're called Užuolaidos, and no it's not potato pancake.Lokyz 14:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Toppings
I'm Scottish and don't understand why on earth you'd put anything but smoked salmon and a bit of cream cheese on them :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.157.48.246 (talk) 13:57, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I always eat blini with sour cream, caviar, and chopped onion. The onion is the most important thing. Merely thinking about its taste makes me hungry for blini. J I P | Talk 13:36, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I prefer to eat them with honey or preserves. I dont understand how anyone an eat them with onions. Yuck! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.250.139.137 (talk) 18:50, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Yuck? Hardly. To compare the two would be like comparing jelly on toast with a grilled cheese sandwich--two completely different animals. In all cases the blini (or the toast) is used to transport the topping to the waiting mouth. I don't know if blini are eaten plain. If so, a person enjoying them might "yuck" at the idea of putting anything on them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wizdar (talk • contribs) 22:43, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Now that's how you do it, in a Russian way:. Red caviar is about 10 dollars for 100 gr. can, so quite affordable, though not an everyday treat - too heavy and time-consuming to prepare. FeelSunny (talk) 07:00, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Flat vs folded
While the culinary part deserves much more attention, the gross problem must be addressed by expert blinophiles ASAP: The article does not draw clear distinction between flat and folded blini. `'mikka 20:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The first picture is mislabeled
The first picture does not show blini, but rather olad'i. This is a common mistake made by English speakers. I suggest removing the picture or altering the caption.

First blin is always destroyed
"By Russian tradition the first blin is always destroyed while frying." To me, this seems very wrong - it's not tradition to destroy it, but rather there is a SAYING which says "The first blin is always scrunched up (ie. stuffed up)" which I always interpreted as a metaphor for not being able to do things right the first time, and needing practice. Can someone confirm this? 124.170.114.88 (talk) 00:52, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Exactly, it's a saying -- the first pancake is always a flop (первый блин комом). There is no custom or rite to destroy the first pancakes, not to my knowledge at least. Maybe once there was one, at pagan times, like to sacrifice the first pancake or dish to some spirit of the forest? But there is definitely non of it now. --Sascha. (talk) 11:29, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
 * This proverb means "you must spoil before you spin" in English. Also we have opinion that phrase means "First pancake to bears", because kom means bear in Old Church Slavonic. At June 23th slavic neopaganists cook pancakes and first pancake they took to forest and left it for bear (it's their tradition). Sorry for my English, because I'm Russian.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Кыс (talk • contribs) 21:45, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * (edited, because it was unclear) Dubious. Need sources for the old church word "bear". Also for what exactly Slavic neopaganists are, and why the hell would they use a Church Slavonic language instead on their own Slavic language! BTW, here's the page from the Church Slavonic dictionary, there's no "kom" in there. http://www.slavdict.ru/_0260.htm Maybe it's too small, anyway, need references. I'm also Russian.176.195.247.112 (talk) 22:42, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
 * "First blin is always lumpy" says Google Translate, though Профессор кислых щей (talk) 10:56, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

thick blini and flat blini
As discussed earlyer about the difference in blini and blini i'd like to point out that i came to this page to find out the difference between the flat and the thick blinis. Because as i live in Finland i have been raised believing a blini is the thick version, and here it is usually served with sour cream, salmon caviar, pickled cucumber and beetroots, chopped onions and molten butter. They are also made with buckwheat.

We are also generally told that it is "a russian dish".

But when I visited russia for the first time what i got as a blini was the flat version, and the stuffings were quite different as well. I've had the same kind of experiences in some ex-soviet countries as well.

Now i guess this has something to do with that the "russian cuisine" we have in finland is from the time of the Czars... but does this type of blini still exist somewhere else and what name is it served under? And for the the record i've recieved similar blinis in France as the ones comonly served in finland but served to Taramosalata.

Gillis (talk) 18:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

 * Okay, so that is apparently the olad'i! (didn't notice to read the caption to the picture on the right... goodgood mystery solved. Gillis (talk) 18:46, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Blintz or Blynai
User:Pirmasis removed names used by Germans, Jewish from the lead and then moved to Blynai, Lithuanian name. But my quick goodle research does not convince me that blynai is the most widely used English name. The move was also undiscussed before, so I moved the title back to blintz. Any idea on this? --Caspian blue (talk) 19:23, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

 * All my WP:AGF assumed, see the reverts issued on the mentioned user. I do not think he was right moving the article.--Lokyz (talk) 22:18, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

yeast?
"It is somewhat similar to a crêpe with main difference being the fact that yeast is always used in blini, but not used in crêpes." Is there a refrence for this? I can't find any recipies with yeast in them. My very limited experince with Blintzes (once in a Jewish restraunt, and sevral times I have found them in the frozen isle) it seems like the wrapper is more similar to the wrapper on a spring roll and doesn't seem to puff up like yeast would do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.137.144.48 (talk) 00:31, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Article
This article is awful and I have no idea how it can be fixed --71.131.27.5 (talk) 18:44, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

I think the answer is thought and organisation - or, maybe more simply: think first, and then write. There's a lot of useful information here, it's just poorly organised and arranged. Maelli (talk) 11:57, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Blintz/Blini
I have lived in England for over 40 years; I've been a chef for 30 years and I've never come across anyone in England or Russia using the word blintz for these blini. These pancakes are universally known as Blini here. As for the claim that these are a traditional jewish food, no they're not - they're traditionally Russian not particularly jewish, it just happens that some jews live(d) in Russia. Russians of other religions have always eaten these as well.

They are traditionally made with buckwheat flour, and not wheat as one writer claimed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EddGee (talk • contribs) 20:55, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with this writer and also the opening comment in the discussion. I was very surprised to find my search on blini (the term universal in British English) redirected to blintz.  If an article on blintz as a jewish food is needed then maybe there should be two articles, one entitled blini for those of us who are looking what to eat with our caviar.  Gordoncph (talk) 16:46, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with the agreement. I came here hoping to refresh my memory as to which is the plural: blin or blini, which I'm fairly certain isn't blinis. Now I'm more confused than ever, except that there is NEVER yeast involved.
 * Concerning buckwheat flour - I suppose they could be traditionally (meaning in the olden times) made from buckwheat flour, but in the Soviet and post-Soviet cuisine they are always wheat-based, if not stated otherwise. I would be happy to be proved wrong in some form, but that's my lifelong experience of cooking and going to fast-food joints, cafes and restaurants in Russia.176.195.247.112 (talk) 22:47, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

 * Also confusing is that there was a distinction made between blintz and crêpes, although clearly the stuffed blintz are more crêpe-like than that which we top with caviar. Wizdar (talk) 22:26, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm a British Jew (and over 40 years old fwiw) and around our way they were (and are) always called blintzes. Same goes for milchig caffs and caterers in most UK surburban shtetlach.

The only time I've heard/seen them called blinis in the UK is at posh cafes and hotels etc doing pricey brunch and in cookery books. There appears, therefore, to be a difference in common usage in the UK: Jews call them blintz and and Gentiles blini. But it does go to show why WP needs to have info based upon sources rather than personal experiences. Plutonium27 (talk) 05:20, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Unhelpful
This article is unhelpful. I am a user of Wikipedia who looked up this article to find out about the best blini (or blinis) to eat with my caviar. As I wrote in an earlier comment, to have the article hijacked by someone who want to refer to "blintz" is misleading to speakers of Englsh. It needs a new title and re-balancing - but I do not have enough expertise to do it well. As it is it reads as propaganda for Jewish cookery. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gordoncph (talk • contribs) 20:02, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

 * Wikipedia is not a consumers guide to your dinner blinis. And having admitted that you're functionally incapable of contributing to the article but still expect some "expertise" from someone to allay your "Jewish cookery propaganda" fears, I think you'll find WP:NOT entirely sums up this place and you. Mind the door etc etc. Plutonium27 (talk) 05:45, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Who the devil - to express it mildly - says "Wikipedia is not a consumers guide to your dinner blinis." Firstly: Do try to write in English (it should be "consumer's"). And secondly, OF COURSE Wikipedia IS a consumer's guide to the particular subject. Who are you to hold forth on the purpose of Wikipedia; what else is Wikipedia if not a source of information of all kinds, including - sorry to mention this! - useful practical information. And OF COURSE I'm entitled to use WP to find out which blinies might taste best with whatever. What an attitude - I think you should think maybe a dozen times before writing anything else here (and probably before going out on the street!). Your reference to "What Wikipedia is not" is an obvious misunderstanding, and potentially an abuse, of that section Maelli (talk) 11:18, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

 * Well, thank you Plutonium27 for your comment which certainly breaches WP:NICE and quite possibly also breaches WP:PA. Let us deal with your points in order.  First, it is perfectly reasonable to use an encyclopaedia to look up information about a food.  Second, one of the uses of the discussion pages is to point out issues that need clarification, and to suggest that experts write such clarifications - or do you only read articles where you are an expert?  Third, I have no "Jewish cookery fears".  Fourth, my original point stands.  I am British but travel widely in Slavic countries, where they are blinis.  They are also blinis in my local Polish shop and, indeed, in Marks and Spencer and in Waitrose - hardly the "posh cafes and hotels etc doing pricey brunch and in cookery books" you refer to in another post.  Wikipedia has a good article on pilaf: it the title were to be changed to "plov" I would argue that the article might then be thought to be propaganda for Azerbaijan cookery.  Most posts on this discussion page talk about blinis and not blintz.  I don't think I am alone. Gordoncph (talk) 17:14, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

 * Seriously guys, It is a pancake, and you are fighting over a tz->i HAND Gillis (talk) 22:38, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

 * Sorry, no. it is more important than the difference between two spellings. A period of study in the Oxford Companion to Food makes me determined to recast this article.  Blintz is a minority spelling, and a minority form, of the article in question.  The Oxford Companion to Food - an undoubtedly authoritative source - does not even refer to blinis/blintz in its article on Jewish food, and the article on blinis makes the etymology of the term "blintz" and the evolution of the food quite clear.  So - I rewrite when I have time.Gordoncph (talk) 20:11, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, but it should be easier to keep a friendly or at least good-mannered tone when the subject is as mundane as the spelling of a pancake than is showed in this thread by previous posters. Shame on you guys. Anyway, much of my travels in europe and especially here in Finland I have encountered that buckwheat blinis are referred to as "Russian cuisine". However, never when I have visited Russia have I gotten similar buckwheat blinis when ordering blinis. They are in russia in fact much flatter non-buckwheat ones and most Russians have no idea of the thick buckwheat Blini the word blini just means pancake in general in Russian. I think the reasons are already explained in the article. Blinis are however still quite common in Finland, presumably because such blinis have become popular here in Finland during the czar era, and as we have been independent before the soviet era we have still been able to keep the tradition up (by being allowed to grow buckwheat that is). And yes, we also spell it blini as have i seen the french do (although their taste a bit different and they eat them with different garnitures). Also remember one is given a degree of freedom in the spelling when the original name is from a language that must be transliterated into western alphabet. Perhaps this helps some in the writing. Gillis (talk) 20:07, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Gillis, all good points and I will be careful to bear them in mind when recasting the article. I agree about the need for the good-mannered tone too, and the need to avoid breaches of WP:NICE and WP:PA. Gordoncph (talk) 08:53, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Gillis, a nice post. I should point out though that the implication that Finns were allowed to grow buckwheat and Soviets didn't is quite funny - not only because of "why on Earth Soviets would do that", but also because Russia was always challenged only by China as the top producer of buckwheat, and leads now. We just like to eat it boiled and with some butter and meat =)176.195.247.112 (talk) 22:53, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

I like to read this talk page every time I have blinis - just to amuse myself. I really think blintz should stay as the title despite the fact that the vast majority of English speakers call them blinis and despite the fact that I personally think blini is the better term. There are vastly more native English speakers who call trousers "pants" (lol) - yet the wikipedia article is named trousers - presumably because somebody from the UK made it first (perhaps because his American counterpart had a more confusing time dressing himself that morning). In the case of blintzes, it's obvious that this article was made first by a native English speaking Jewish person - another minority - so us English speaking Christians can no more expect this to be changed than American English speakers can expect trousers to become pants. Isn't this Wikipedia's policy? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.167.198.60 (talk) 18:28, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Differences?
What are the differences between a blin, a crepe, and a crepe? I think these should be addressed in this article. Komitsuki (talk) 10:31, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Move to Blin
I intend to move the page to Blin (considering the majority on this talk page believe that is the more proper and comman name) and add hatnote: If there are any objections, please let me know. Otherwise I'll move the page in a few days. Thanks, 14nights (talk) 19:50, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

 * I think, a more appropriate solution would be to split the article into two separate articles, as it describes in fact two different varieties of pancakes. As far as I understand (correct me if I'm wrong!), the variety called blini in the english-speaking world (and probably in many other places) usually refers to ru:Русские блины ("Russian blini"), which are yeast-raised pancakes. Historically they were often made of buckwheat but the buckwheat variety became rare in Russia today. And in general, this traditional pancake variety is not as widespread today in Russia, as it was in former times. The other variety, referred to as blintzes, is what is called блинчики ("blinchiki", diminutive of blini, "thin blini") or Налистники ("nalistniki") in Russia and Ukraine. The latter name is more common in Ukraine and is cognate with similar Polish "naleśniki". Today, the names blini and blinchiki are often used interchangeably in Russia, but this word simply means "pancakes" in Russian and may refer to any type of pancake. --Off-shell (talk) 20:45, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

 * In Russia, there are blinchiki. What about... doing it this way: blintzes are supposed to be K, kosher; while blinchiki aren't. Besides, some blinchiki even have cheese-ham filling (double T). However, "blinchiki" vs "blini" has nothing to do with thickness of the blin itself; no - blinchiki, in my experience, is a word for a pack of blintz-like products, rectangular-shaped, factory-made, with various fillings (that, well, include pork). Профессор кислых щей (talk) 11:01, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

These barely resemble the 'Blini' I ate today
It seems some UK vendor interpret a 'blini' as being a tiny crumpet. Is a small yeast raised crumpet essentially a 'blini' or not? Stub Mandrel (talk) 11:41, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
 * See commons:Category:Blintzes for blini, as common today in Russia. Smaller and thicker versions, labelled blini in the West, may be named oladyi in Russia. See commons:category:Oladyi. --Off-shell (talk) 19:06, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Nah, it should NOT be crumpet.81.89.66.133 (talk) 14:31, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 11 October 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. History swap performed to preserve attribution, though I'm not sure it was strictly necessary. Jenks24 (talk) 17:01, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Blintz → Blini – As many users have previously mentioned on this talk page, current title is misleading. Far more Google search results for "blini" as opposed to "blintz." "Blintz" is hardly even mentioned in the article itself anymore. Oneforfortytwo (talk) 04:48, 11 October 2015 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 09:12, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

@DanielLerish
So you add Ukraine here but remove Russian paska tradition @ Paska (bread) article. just wow about such behaviour --85.212.147.186 (talk) 06:17, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

A few years back, I went on a trip across USSR, visiting many observatories. Back in Moscow, on our last night, we were promised a special local specialty dish for dinner. They were called "bliniz". We were all eager to find out what it was... and to my utmost surprise, what I saw were "des PLOYES"!!! I was born and raised on a farm in North-west New Brunswick, Canada... and "Ployes" (or Bliniz) were an everyday accompanyment to our meals; we ate instead of bread. Same recipe: buckwheat flour, white flour, Baking powder, salt, soda... and bake like a pancake but we eat as accompanyement to main dish. Cook; spread some on a hot plate, (like you would a pancake), lots of butter, roll it up and Yum! Yum! — Preceding unsigned comment added by LaPloye (talk • contribs) 18:52, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Blin / Blini / Bliny ? Blinis #!?
Blini / Bliny (блины) is the plural of blin (блин), not "also called". Blinchik (блинчик) / blinchiki  pl. (блинчики) is just a diminutive affectionate form.

I understand why this happened, speaking of cooking, no one cooks just one blin, only many, like cookies. But an attempt to translate the russian plural form is perplexing for english speakers, as a result of this construction, mutants such as Blinis.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Yarogri (talk • contribs) 12:20, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Country attribution
I'm not sure why the text names them as specifically Russian. Especially since the article references pre-christian period, which is few hundreds years before the creation of the Principality of Moscow. Parnas (talk) 20:29, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Blini


text:
Hokitika

Hokitika is a town in the West Coast region of New Zealand's South Island, 40 km south of Greymouth, and close to the mouth of the Hokitika River. It is the seat and largest town in the Westland District. The town's estimated population is as of.

On a clear day Aoraki / Mount Cook can clearly be seen from Hokitika's main street.

Toponymy
The name Hokitika translates from Māori as "to return directly" (from hoki, 'to return', and tika, 'direct'). According to the Ministry for Culture and Heritage, the name comes from when a band of Ngāi Tahu warriors in search of greenstone were about to attack Ngāti Wairangi pā. The chief of the invaders drowned while trying to cross the Hokitika River, and the leaderless taua (army) then returned directly to their own home.

History
The land where Hokitika stands was purchased in 1860 from Māori when Poutini Ngāi Tahu chiefs signed the Arahura Deed. This was the sale of the whole of the West Coast region, apart from small areas reserved for Māori. It was almost 3 million hectares and sold to the Crown for £300.

Founded on gold mining in 1864, it was a centre of the West Coast Gold Rush and grew very quickly. Members of the Jewish community ran stores and businesses and built a synagogue in Tancred St. One of them, John Lazar, was appointed Town Clerk in 1866 and was a prominent Freemason.

By late 1866, it was one of New Zealand's most populous centres. On 16 September 1867, there were 41 vessels alongside the wharf at Hokitika, in some places three and four deep. In 1867, the port of Hokitika ranked first in New Zealand in both the number of vessels entered inwards and in the total value of exports; principally gold.

On 8 March 1868 a mock funeral was held in protest about the conviction and hanging of three Irish Fenians in Manchester – the Manchester Martyrs. The funeral was led by Roman Catholic Father William Larkin and a Celtic Cross was erected in the Hokitika Cemetery. Larkin was later arrested, charged, and convicted of riot and seditious libel.

In 1873 Hokitika became the capital of the short-lived Westland Province which lasted from 1873 until the abolition of provinces in 1876.

In the early 20th century Hokitika had two hospitals, the Westland Hospital and the Seaview Asylum.

In October 1941, three Hokitika police officers (and a policeman stationed in the neighbouring locality of Kaniere), along with a field instructor for the Canterbury education board, were killed when a local farmer, Stanley Graham, went on a shooting rampage and killed seven people, including two armed Home guard personnel.

In the ensuing manhunt, the biggest in New Zealand history, overseen by the Commissioner of Police, Denis Cummings, more than 100 New Zealand Police and several hundred New Zealand Army & Home Guard searched the area for the gunman for 12 days, with orders to shoot him on sight if found still armed. On 20 October, after being spotted by two police constables and a local civilian carrying his rifle and ammunition belts, Graham was fatally wounded by a police constable and died the next day.

The population has declined greatly since that time but the population of the Westland District is now on the rise thanks to "lifestyle inhabitants". Almost 30% of the district's rate-payers live outside of Hokitika.

Climate
Hokitika has an oceanic climate, with mild summers, cool winters, and rainfall evenly distributed across the year. It is one of the wettest places in New Zealand, with over 2800 mm of rainfall per year.

Hokitika Gorge
Nearby Hokitika Gorge is a popular short tourist walk, with vibrant blue water and a "swing" (metal rope suspension) bridge.

Demographics
The Hokitika urban area, as defined by Statistics New Zealand, covers 11.78 km2 and is coterminous with the Hokitika statistical area. The urban area has an estimated population of as of  with a population density of  people per km2.

Before the 2023 census, the town had a smaller boundary, covering 3.91 km2. Using that boundary, Hokitika had a population of 2,892 at the 2018 New Zealand census, a decrease of 75 people (−2.5%) since the 2013 census, and a decrease of 186 people (−6.0%) since the 2006 census. There were 1,305 households, comprising 1,374 males and 1,521 females, giving a sex ratio of 0.9 males per female. The median age was 47.5 years (compared with 37.4 years nationally), with 459 people (15.9%) aged under 15 years, 474 (16.4%) aged 15 to 29, 1,278 (44.2%) aged 30 to 64, and 687 (23.8%) aged 65 or older.

Ethnicities were 86.4% European/Pākehā, 20.1% Māori, 1.7% Pasifika, 4.9% Asian, and 1.3% other ethnicities. People may identify with more than one ethnicity.

The percentage of people born overseas was 11.6, compared with 27.1% nationally.

Although some people chose not to answer the census's question about religious affiliation, 47.7% had no religion, 41.3% were Christian, 0.4% had Māori religious beliefs, 0.8% were Hindu, 0.4% were Muslim, 0.3% were Buddhist and 1.3% had other religions.

Of those at least 15 years old, 330 (13.6%) people had a bachelor's or higher degree, and 654 (26.9%) people had no formal qualifications. The median income was $27,300, compared with $31,800 nationally. 318 people (13.1%) earned over $70,000 compared to 17.2% nationally. The employment status of those at least 15 was that 1,146 (47.1%) people were employed full-time, 408 (16.8%) were part-time, and 57 (2.3%) were unemployed.

Economy and culture
The major industries of greenstone (pounamu), gold, coal, and forestry have all dwindled over the last century, but a growing ecotourism industry has grown up and the town is starting to show signs of recovery. It has become a major tourist stop on the West Coast's main highway route, with carving of greenstone an important local industry. It is also gaining a reputation for its annual wild food festival which has been running since 1990.

Seaview Asylum was once the town's biggest employer.

Another important industry is dairying, with Westland Milk Products having its headquarters and main processing plant in the town. Westland Milk Products was established as a dairy co-operative in 1937, and was sold to the Yili Group in 2019. It is the country's third-equal largest dairy processor as of 2018.

Hokitika has a 3D digital cinema, the Regent Theatre, due to volunteer hours and grants from the Lions foundation, Lottery's commission, Development West Coast through the Major District Initiative and pub charity. The Art Deco theatre is a heritage building and narrowly avoided being demolished, thanks to a last-minute coup in the management committee. Community performances are also held there. Hokitika has a drama group which produce plays. It is also on the circuit for Arts on Tour and well known artists from many countries as well as New Zealand perform at the Old Lodge Theatre.

Every January, Hokitika beach hosts the Driftwood and Sand Festival. The festival involves members of the public and a sponsored artist constructing sculptures out of beach debris. Driftwood and Sand originated in beach festival run by Hokitika artist Donald Buglass in November 2002, and it has been run as an annual festival since 2003.

The Hokitika Museum is housed in the town's Carnegie library building. The Hokitika Sock Machine Museum in Revell Street has on display a collection of antique sock-knitting machines. Visitors are invited to knit their own socks. Hokitika also has a modern library, thriving community groups, and many excellent artists.

Marae
Arahura Marae is located near Hokitika. It is a marae (tribal meeting ground) of Ngāi Tahu and its Te Rūnanga o Ngāti Waewae branch, and includes the Tūhuru wharenui (meeting house).

In October 2020, the Government committed $161,131 from the Provincial Growth Fund to upgrade the marae, and create four jobs.

Road
passes through the town.

Rail
The first rail transport was the Hokitika & Kanieri Tramway laid with wooden rails was established in 1868, with cars drawn by horses. A road followed in 1873.

A branch line railway known as the Hokitika Branch was established to the town from Greymouth in 1893, and an extension to Ross was open from 1909 to 1980.

Passengers to Hokitika were initially served by mixed trains that carried both goods and passengers. In 1936, these services were augmented by a Leyland diesel railbus service that ran from Hokitika to Greymouth, Christchurch, and briefly Reefton. In the early 1940s, the Vulcan railcars were introduced and they provided a twice-daily service between Ross and Christchurch via Hokitika. The mixed trains continued to operate until 1967, and all passenger services to Hokitika ceased when the Vulcan railcars stopped running past Greymouth in 1972.

Since then, the line to Hokitika has been freight only with traffic primarily coming from Westland Milk Products.

Shipping
In 1865, after the discovery of gold in the area, the town became the official port of entry of the West Coast. A boom period ensued when Hokitika was second only to Auckland, with reports of over 40 ships in the harbour at one time, with more waiting offshore. It was a dangerous port, with 108 strandings and 32 ships lost from 1865 to 1867. The lack of nearby coal meant that the port declined rapidly along with the gold, though Hokitika remained an official entry port until the 1950s.

Air

Air New Zealand provides two flights a day to Christchurch. The Hokitika Airport is adjacent to the town, immediately to the north-east in the suburb of Seaview.

Hokitika's Southside airfield was the base of Air Travel, New Zealand's first airline. Air Travel carried passengers, mail and freight south from Hokitika to the glaciers and remote landing strips beyond Haast and north up to Westport. Its first scheduled flight was in December 1934. Directors were Hokitika residents: Bert Mercer, Paul Renton and Harry Newman.

After the second world war, Air Travel was nationalised and became part of NAC.

Education
A school was described as "recently opened" in Hokitika in 1875, and had nearly 350 students. The Hokitika District High School provided both primary and secondary education for the area for many years. Its name was changed in 1963 to Westland High School, which caters for years 7 to 13 and has a roll of.

Hokitika School is a contributing primary (years 1–6) school with a roll of.

St Mary's School is a full primary (years 1–8) school with a roll of. It is a state integrated Catholic school and is connected with St Mary's Catholic Church.

All these schools are coeducational. Rolls are as of

Notable people

 * Agnes Addison (c.1842–1903), Scottish draper who was one of Hokitika's early businesswomen.
 * Margaret Andrews Alcorn (1868–1967) and her sister Mary Alcorn (1866–1928) were interior designers and business owners
 * Charles Button (1838–1920), mayor of Hokitika, solicitor, judge, and MP
 * John Urquhart Cropp (1927–2016), Olympic yachtsman
 * Edward St John Daniel (1837–1868), Victoria Cross recipient, died and is buried in Hokitika
 * Charlie Douglas (1840–1916), explorer and surveyor
 * Alice Eyton (1874–1929), journalist, screenwriter, playwright, and novelist in Hollywood
 * Stanley Graham (1900–1941), a farmer who killed seven people and was the target of New Zealand's biggest manhunt
 * Bess Hudson (1875–1961), early nurse, for Dr Teichelmann
 * Al Hunter (born 1950), musician, singer-songwriter
 * John Lazar (1840–1916), actor, town clerk, mason
 * Sharlotte Lucas (born 1991), road cyclist
 * Fayne Robinson (born 1964), Māori carver
 * Holly Robinson (born 1994), athlete born in Hokitika
 * John Rutherford Ryley (1837–1884), who introduced antiseptic technique to New Zealand, was surgeon at Hokitika Hospital at the time
 * Richard Seddon (1845–1906), New Zealand politician and Premier
 * Ebenezer Teichelmann (1859–1938), surgeon, mountaineer, photographer and conservationist

Notable buildings

 * Hokitika Customhouse, built 1897, a Category I historic place
 * The Hokitika Clock Tower, built 1902/3, the most prominent landmark in Hokitika
 * Hokitika Museum, housed in the former Carnegie Library, built 1908
 * Seaview Asylum, founded 1872 and once the town's biggest employer
 * All Saints' Church, a prominent landmark and early unfaced concrete church
 * St Andrew's United Church, built in 1935, a good example of a small Gothic parish church
 * Renton Hardware building (also known as the Okitiki building), completed in 1908, a Category 2 historic place
 * Government Buildings (also known as Seddon House), completed in 1913, a Category 1 historic place
 * St Mary's Catholic Church, a Category 1 historic place
 * Hokitika Savings Bank building, a Category 2 historic place

Sister cities
Hokitika has one sister city.
 * Deloraine, Australia

In popular culture
The events of The Luminaries, by Eleanor Catton, take place within Hokitika. The book won the Man Booker Prize in 2013.

The novel Hokitika Town, by Charlotte Randall, is set in Hokitika.

The 2004 historical novel The Colour by Rose Tremain is partially set in 1860s Hokitika.

The 1999 movie Magik and Rose was set in Hokitika.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Hokitika


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Merlion

 * Delete. Text dump. Why is this being voted on? Wetman 09:12, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

title: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Merlion


text:
Stanley Greenspan

Stanley Greenspan (June 1, 1941 – April 27, 2010) was an American child psychiatrist and clinical professor of Psychiatry, Behavioral Science, and Pediatrics at George Washington University Medical School. He was best known for developing the floortime approach for attempting to treat children with autistic spectrum disorders and developmental disabilities.

He was Chairman of the Interdisciplinary Council on Developmental and Learning Disorders and also a Supervising Child Psychoanalyst at the Washington Psychoanalytic Institute. A graduate of Harvard College and Yale Medical School, Greenspan was the founding president of Zero to Three: National Center for Infants, Toddlers, and Families and former director of the National Institute of Mental Health's Clinical Infant Developmental Program and Mental Health Study Center.

Career
The developmental model Greenspan formulated guides the care and treatment of children and infants with developmental and mental health disorders, and his work has led to the formation of regional councils and networks in most major American cities.

He has been recognized internationally as a foremost authority on mental health and disorders in infants and young children, having received awards from both the American Psychiatric Association and the American Orthopsychiatric Association. In 1981, he received the Ittleson Prize, the American Psychiatric Association's award for child psychiatry research. He also received the Blanche F. Ittleson award from the American Orthopsychiatric Association for outstanding contributions to American mental health. In 2003, he received the Mary S. Sigourney Award for distinguished contributions to psychoanalysis. He has testified before Congress numerous times on policies affecting children and families.

Since 1975, he has written four monographs and 40 books including The Course of Life: Psychoanalytic Contributions to Understanding Personality Development with G. H. Pollock in 1980, with an update in 1989–90. He has also created two videos including First Feelings, which is an introduction to his orientation into social-emotional development. Both in the popular press and in peer-reviewed articles, he has written about a wide variety of subjects that affect human development.

He wrote a book The Four Thirds Solution: Solving the Childcare Crisis in America Today, which addresses how Shared Earning/Shared Parenting Marriage supports child development.

Greenspan recently orchestrated and edited the writing of the Psychodynamic Diagnostic Manual (PDM), a new manual intended to supplement the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) currently used to diagnose psychological disorders.

Greenspan's years of studying child development at NIMH and subsequent work successfully treating children with social-emotional delays using the DIR model is described in detail in the memoir "The Boy Who Loved Windows; Opening the Heart and Mind of a Child Threatened with Autism" written by Patricia Stacey, the mother of one of his patients. ISBN 978-0738209661. The book was based on an article Stacey wrote featuring Greenspan called "Floor Time" published in The Atlantic Monthly in February 2003.

Greenspan lived in Bethesda, Maryland, with his wife and co-author Nancy Thorndike Greenspan. He died on April 27, 2010, of complications of a stroke.

Publications

 * 1985. First Feelings: Milestones in the Emotional Development of Your Infant and Child from Birth to Age 4 with Nancy Thorndike Greenspan. Viking Press.
 * 1989. The Development of the Ego: Implications for Personality Theory, Psychopathology, and the Psychotherapeutic Process. International Universities Press.
 * 1989. The Essential Partnership: How Parents and Children Can Meet the Emotional Challenges of Infancy and Childhood with Nancy Thorndike Greenspan. Viking Penguin.
 * 1992. Infancy and Early Childhood: The Practice of Clinical Assessment and Intervention with Emotional and Developmental Challenges. Madison, CT: International Universities Press.
 * 1993. Playground Politics: The Emotional Development of your School-Aged Child with Jacqui Salmon. Perseus Books.
 * 1995. The Challenging Child: Understanding, Raising, and Enjoying the Five "Difficult" Types of Children with Jacqui Salmon. Perseus Books. ISBN 978-0-201-44193-2 Perseus Books.
 * 1997. The Child with Special Needs: Encouraging Intellectual and Emotional Growth with Serena Wieder. ISBN 978-0-201-40726-6 Perseus Books.
 * 1997. The Growth of the Mind and the Endangered Origins of Intelligence with Beryl Benderly. Perseus Books.
 * 1997. Developmentally Based Psychotherapy. International Universities Press.
 * 1999. Building Healthy Minds: The Six Experiences that Create Intelligence and Emotional Growth in Babies and Young Children with Nancy Breslau Lewis. ISBN 978-0-7382-0063-7
 * 2000. The Irreducible Needs of Children: What Every Child Must have to Grow, Learn, and Flourish. with T.B. Brazelton. Perseus Books.
 * 2001. The Four Thirds Solution: Solving the Childcare Crisis in America Today. with Jacqueline Salmon. ISBN 0-7382-0200-2 Perseus Books.
 * 2002.The Secure Child: Helping Our Children Feel Safe and Confident in a Changing World. Perseus Books.
 * 2003. Engaging Autism: The Floortime Approach to Helping Children Relate, Communicate and Think with Serena Wieder. Perseus Books.
 * 2003. The Clinical Interview of the Child. 3rd edition, with Nancy Thorndike Greenspan. ISBN 978-1-58562-137-8 American Psychiatric Publishing, Inc.
 * 2004. The Greenspan Social Emotional Growth Chart: A Screening Questionnaire for Infants and Young Children. Harcourt Assessment, PsychCorp.
 * 2004. The First Idea: How Symbols, Language, and Intelligence Evolved from Early Primates to Modern Humans with Stuart Shanker. ISBN 978-0-306-81449-5 Da Capo Press.
 * 2006. Infant and Early Childhood Mental Health with Serena Wieder. ISBN 978-1-58562-164-4 American Psychiatric Publishing, Inc.
 * 2010. The Learning Tree: Overcoming Learning Disabilities From the Ground Up with Nancy Thorndike Greenspan. ISBN 0-7382-1233-4 DaCapa Press.
 * 2011. "Respecting Autism: The Rebecca School DIR Casebook for Parents and Professionals" with Gil Tippy. ISBN 0-5331-6454-0

title: Stanley Greenspan


text:
Talk:Sand Creek massacre

Hungate massacre
I think this article should consider removing the reference to the hungate massacre in the header paragraph, and reserve it for the later paragraphs. The "massacre" of 4 people, while horrible, was not the reason the Sand Creek Massacre occurred, by placing it where it is, it implies some kind of direct connection. Granted, Chivington tried to make that excuse later, but it's an EXCUSE. The Sand Creek Massacre happened because people hated Indians. We should be direct about that part. I'm not saying it's not important to put the time line in context, and understand the rise of hate caused by the Hungate massacre, but it should not be a top paragraph line. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.164.147.196 (talk) 20:29, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Ghost Dance
--- "line 29 The Cheyenne and Arapahoes danced the ghost dance which invoked the attack. "

I don't think Cheyenne and Arapahoes ever danced the ghost dance. Can we get source? --- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dm2ortiz (talk • contribs) 21:08, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I deleted the Ghost Dance reference since the dates simply don't work.rewinn 21:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Chivington
The distinction between the U.S. Army (of which the "U.S. Cavalry" was a branch) and the militias of the various states, Colorado in this case, was a real one--especially during the Indian Wars. U.S. Army troops and, more important, their officers, were drawn from the country as a whole, and their attitudes toward the Indians reflected a broad mix of feelings; militia troops and officers, on the other hand, were drawn from within the various states in which they normally served, and thus reflected more closely the prevailing local attitudes.

In the months preceding the tragedy at Sand Creek, Indians had killed settlers, including women and children; their bodies were displayed in Denver as proof that the Indians were indeed savages who could be dealt with only by force. Sand Creek was the almost inevitable outcome of the use of militia troops under Chivington, a member of the militia himself.

How the local militia came to be at Sand Creek on that fateful day is complicated and not part of this discussion. What happened after they got there, however, can be partially explained--in no case justified--by their local backgrounds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.140.167.152 (talk) 09:56, 10 October 2004 (UTC)

 * For the above to be helpful in improving the article, it may be worth going into Chivington's troops & motivations; also those of Evan. According to Dee Brown, they seem to have based their political campaigns on fighting an Indian menace. rewinn 06:07, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

 * The deliberate killing and mutilation of non-combatant women and children was rightly condemned as an atrocity. However it must be borne in mind that these pratices, and worse, were routine amongst the hostile Indians (and not just against Whites) who apparently saw nothing atrocious or immoral about them, except when practised by Whites upon them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.125.117.90 (talk) 18:45, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

 * And your evidence for this extremely broad and unsourced statement would be ... what?
 * There is no showing that Indians lacked as broad a range of feelings and practices as Europeans, whose history is full of both atrocities and the rejection of atrocities. In any event, it is difficult to see how the above comments would assist in improving the article. rewinn 19:23, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

 * You ask for sources; See below. I don't know if you agree, but I find it useful to read the alternative viewpoint rather than accept what "everyone knows".  Even if one's opinion remains unchanged, it is at least a more considered opinion.  As the Romans used to say: "Audi alteram partem" Hear the other side.  Best wishes.
 * Battle At Sand Creek: The Military Perspective by Gregory F. Michno (Author) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.202.159.169 (talk) 19:41, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Hello and welcome to wikipedia. Let me urge you
 * Get a logon. It's free & helps discussion by making it easier for people to recall who they're discussing with
 * Sign your Talk page contribs. Just put four tildas (~) at the end & wikimagic does the rest
 * I don't know how to respond substantively to your comment. There's no showing that I or any other editor accepts what everyone knows. What wikipedia needs is sources for comment. This particular discussion conflates two issues: whether Indians ever committed atrocities, and whether they "saw nothing atrocious or immoral about them, except when practised by Whites upon them". The former is an unremarkable proposition; it would be remarkable if Indians were one of the few people never to commit atrocities. As to the latter, I very much doubt that there is any factual support; history and biology tells us that all humans very much resent being the object of atrocities. Although it seems likely that Indian-on-Indian atrocitites may not have been complained of to a White court system that would exercise little jurisdiction. rewinn 04:12, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Thank you for your advice, rwinn. You seem to misunderstand my comments.  My point is about cultural values, not about individuals.

 * Chivington's actions were considered, by whites, to be an atrocity because they went beyond what was deemed civilised behaviour, even in the conduct of war. On the other hand, from an Indian point of view, the killing, rape, mutilation and torture of men women and children was a cultural norm, and not viewed as aberrant behaviour, it was simply the way war was waged.  No doubt other Indian victims resented being attacked, but this does not mean they viewed these actions as atrocities.
 * In fact, I know of no violence inflicted upon an enemy by Indians which would be considered by other Indians an atrocity. (I would be very interested if someone were to show me otherwise).
 * [User:Joescallan|Joescallan]] 18:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

 * What evidence do you offer for the proposition that from an Indian point of view, killing, rape, mutilation and torture of men women and children was a cultural norm ... at least, any more that it is a norm among civilized societies as well? Please, cite a reliable source. The evidence that tribal societies are any more nasty, brutal and Hobbesian than more civilized societies is simply absent. To the contrary: read Henry V's speech before Harfleur and consider that Shakespeare's audience considered him a hero; ponder the conduct of civilized Japanese troops in China, civilized Amercan troops in Vietnam, civilized Russian troops in Chenchnya, et cetera; and consider that no savage society (unless perhaps the Mongols) conducted slaughter on so grand scale as the civilized societies with our invention of the strategic bomber, poisonous gas, and the death camp. It is to the glory and credit of the civilized world that we have the Geneva Conventions et cetera but they would not be necessary were our cultural norms as you suggest.  rewinn 03:40, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Why is it assumed here that groups like the Native Americans and Mongols are "savage"? What keeps them from being called a civilization, or part of one? Undeniably, they were parts of societies, so this to me seems at best inaccurate and at worst offensive. I mean no ill will: all I ask for is a reasonable explanation, for there doesn't seem to be one. Sorry if I haven't really contributed; I was drawn in by the conversation.... 99.56.196.101 (talk) 04:07, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I accept your comment in the spirit in which it is offered. Terminology matters and it can be hard to find the correct word. It was another editor who sought to distinguish "civilised behaviour" from that of Indians; my point was that even if one accepts such a distinction, non-Indians have committed absurdly large atrocities. In addition, I could have pointed to the Mystic massacre as a completely on-point example of a butchery that shocked our Native population. None-the-less, both tribal Mongols and tribal American Indians had or have civilizations by any reasonable definition. rewinn (talk) 21:32, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Many years ago I ran across an American (or should I say, "used in the United States?") elementary school history and geography textbook that began with the statement, "Before the Europeans arrived, North America was populated by people called Indians. Indians had no culture." That is not an exact quote, but it is very close, and the last part is exact. The book was published about a century ago. Even at that time folks should have known better. So why would a text book say such a thing? Because (opinion) that is what "they" (who ever "they might be) wanted the youth of America to believe. However I am wondering if the Indians here -in this article - are ever referred to as "savages" other than in a Anglo quote from the period.  I will check again, but I really doubt it.  rewinn, I want to congratulate you for continuing a discussinn over a four year period, a record until I see otherwise.  Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 23:50, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Depiction in fiction
Another song about this is "Banner Year" by Five Iron Frenzy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.74.218 (talk) 04:22, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Partial Sentence
I removed the partial sentence at the end of the piece: "The actual location of the massacre was not definatively nailed until"... Mwanner 01:45, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism
I removed some obscenities and other juvenile comments just now. tstockma 01:24, September 12, 2005

Anon editor said..
""the massacre in Little Big Man is also based on it." is a mistake as that movie featured an accurate recreation of the second attack on Black Kettle's Cheyennes on the banks of the Washita, 27 November 1868, where Black Kettle actually died at the hands of Custer's 7th."

There are 2 massacres in Little Big Man, the first one where Jack Crabb meets his indian wife giving birth. Custer is not present. At least the wikipedia article on Little Big Man says this was the Sand Creek massacre. I added this reference back.

So I removed the text ", and the massacre in Little Big Man is also based on it" If it is really correct please replace it. Rich  Farmbrough 01:46, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

"...encamped on the eastern plains." Looking at the map it sure looks as if Sand Creek is in the western plains!!!! Oh sure, there is the demarcation between what is known as the long grass and short grass prarie but the term "eastern" doesn't seem to fit the actual location of the massacre in any manner.68.13.191.153 12:25, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

 * In Colorado we are used to referring to anything east of Denver as the "eastern plains." Perhaps it would be better worded: "on the plains of eastern Colorado."  Plazak 18:05, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Dog Soldiers
I'm removing the link the the Dog Soldier (movie), it has nothing to do with Cheyenne Dog Soldiers... Ralph 9 Jan 2006
 * agreed. There really should be a wikipedia article about the historical Dog Soldiers but I lack sources. Anybody care to take it up? rewinn 19:26, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I've removed another link to the Dog Soldiers movie for the same reason. - Shrivenzale; 15:57, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I've cleaned up the whole mess of Dog Soldiers references. The one we want has been at Dog soldier; I moved to rename it to Dog Soldiers (has to go through admins to keep the edit history with the article), on top of renaming the film to Dog Soldiers (film), and creating a Dog Soldiers (disambiguation) article. I felt it was appropriate to have the article on the Cheyenne military society as the one called simply Dog Soldiers, as the other items of that name (a novel & the movie) are both ultimately references to this original.  I've got at least some material on the Cheyenne Dog Soldiers which I will be adding to that article shortly. Meantime, we can now link to Dog Soldiers without ending up on a 2002 British werwolf flick. --Yksin 11:17, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

No, the Dog Soldiers were not part of the Sand Creek encampment; if they had, Chivington would have been routed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.145.163.39 (talk) 04:12, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Tom Cruise
In the book The Last Samurai it states The Battle of Washita River. I'll look up the page number for eveyone so we can put this to rest.--Dm2ortiz 20:09, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I took out the following lines, since it seems there is some disagreement on them:

''In the film The Last Samurai, Tom Cruise's character Captain Nathan Algren had nightmares from his participation at the massacre. stop adding this, that was the "The Battle of Washita River" not Sand Creek!''

Does anyone have a reference they can cite one way or the other for this? If it is sand creek, it should go back in the article, but remain out if otherwise. Adagio 16:54, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * After thinking about it, I don't see how Algren could be having nightmares about Sand Creek. According to the The Last Samurai, it says he was a veteran of the Battle of Gettysburg.  Gettysburg was July 1863.  It seems unlikely that a soldier could or would be allowed to leave the Army of the Potomac to go to Colorado and join the 1st and 3rd Colorado Cavalry a year later during the civil war.  Since the movie "takes place" in 1877, there is plenty of time for him to take part in some other massacre.  Without evidence, I think it is best to keep it out.  I think I will take it out of the The Last Samurai article too, and redirect any objections from there to here so we can sort it out. --ChristopherM 20:30, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

 * I just watched the movie last night, pursuant to research for Battle of Washita River. It's Washita that the movie refers to, if not by name. Evidence: (1) Cruise's character Algren was a former captain in the 7th Cavalry, which was not present at Sand Creek, but certainly was at the Washita. (2) In one of the nightmare/flashback scenes, he was heard to protest to the Col. Blagley character (whose presence there as a colonel as though he had commanded the 7th in that attack instead of Lt. Col. Custer was rather confusing to me) just before they charged in for the attack something to the effect of, "But they weren't responsible for the raids!" -- an undoubted reference to the raids along the Solomon/Saline rivers that was one of the proximate justifications for Sheridan's winter campaign against the Cheyenne & Arapaho which led to the Washita attack. Not a very accurate depiction of Washita, of course, but that's to be expected I guess. --Yksin 11:25, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Fort Wise Treaty
I added the name of the treaty signed by Black Kettle and others (Fort Wise Treaty of 1861) and changed it to say that only SOME of the chiefs signed it. My reference: Black Kettle: The Cheyenne Chief Who Sought Peace and Found War, by Thom Hatch (2004). This is my first time editing a wikipedia entry and I think I botched my signature; it seems to appear in the middle of the entry. --Dansato 22:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I found the names of all six of the signatories in one of Hoig's books, and added the ref. Hoig cites the standard reference on Indian treaties, Charles J. Kappler's Indian Affairs: Law and Treaties (4 vols.) Also completely rewrote the Treaty of Fort Wise article (which previously had been a unreferenced POV rant with tags complaining of such) based on rewrites I did of the Background section of this article. --Yksin 11:30, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

American casualties and cause
I added the information from Dee Brown's book. I just returned it to the library, so I have to get the page numbers.Pejorative.majeure 00:27, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Background section
The background section has been expanded and sourced, based mainly on Stan Hoig's book The Peace Chiefs of the Cheyennes, Jerome Greene's 2004 book on the Washita, and George Hyde's Life of George Bent Written from His Letters. This section was previously completely unsourced. I'm hoping that my edits clarify the account -- I focused particularly on the differences between the Treaty of Fort Laramie (1851) & the Treaty of Fort Wise, the anger of the Dog Soldiers and some other Cheyennes about the latter, & how the Dog Soldiers' refusal to feel obligated to abide by the Fort Wise treaty's stipulations helped lead to the escalating conflicts during 1864 that culminated in the Colorado War in general & the Sand Creek massacre in particular. About the only part of the background I didn't get to expanding/sourcing in this section was the stuff about how Black Kettle & company ended up at Sand Creek. Refs article-wide also cleaned up. --Yksin 11:42, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Atrocities
Most articles about the massacre omit the grisly details. What is the source of the passage: "Many of the dead were mutilated, ... They also publicly displayed these battle trophies in the Apollo Theater and saloons in Denver"? ALu06 17:55, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

 * This is mentioned in Dee Brown's book. Trophies were draped on weapons, clothing and were on public display in Denver. Pejorative.majeure 00:38, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Starting on page 57 in the "Condition of the Indian Tribes, Report of the joint Special Committee, Appendix" (1867), you will find alot of documented first hand testimony from Chivington's soldiers as to the grisly mutilations committed:

 * http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;rgn=full%20text;idno=ABB3022.0001.001;didno=ABB3022.0001.001;view=image;seq=0069 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.138.14.2 (talk) 02:03, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

 * It's original research (OR) for editors to use such primary source material. It would be useful for someone to check to see if one of the recent academic histories of the massacre repeat this material or qualify it in any way.--Parkwells (talk) 16:49, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * No. Such a report is not primary source material, but a study and compilation of materials of evidence, just as usable as any academic's study. If it is otherwise untrustworthy or there are authorities to the contrary, that can be dealt with just as any other conflicting authority. Second, references to primary source material are proper and useful if identified as such, e.g. "the Report of the Joint Special Committee cited first hand testimony ...". That the Committee came to thus-and-such a conclusion is noteworthy and if there are conflicting conclusions of comparable noteworthiness, the thing to do is to pair them off. It would be absurd to be unable to cite to a Committee merely because it consists of experts. rewinn (talk) 09:19, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Casualties
The article contradicts itself on the casualties on both sides. The infobox says that the militia forces suffered 9 dead and 38 wounded, while the Attack section says that 15 died and more than 50 were wounded. The lead and infobox both cite 400 native American deaths given by an oral history project apparently generations removed from the event. The text in the Attack section cites the 400 oral history figure, and also mentions 150-200 deaths from a historian, 500-600 deaths from Chivington's testimony, and 163 deaths by eyewitness George Bent. While all these estimates deserve mention in the text of the article, the most credible figure seems to me to be the 163 from George Bent, who was there, knew the victims, and certainly had no reason to underestimate the number of deaths. I believe that it is Bent's figure that should be cited in the lead and the infobox. Any thoughts? Plazak (talk) 16:49, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

 * I agree about the casualty numbers contradicting themselves. Someone needs to collate the casualties and present them as a range of possibilities.
 * Casualty numbers should also be presented in just one place - currently they are spread over about three sections of the article.
 * About the casualty count in the infobox: I agree with your logic re: Bent, but without a close reading of the sources I'm not sure that logic is enough. Maybe the infobox should present the range of possible casualties? --RhoOphuichi (talk) 22:31, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Casualties
Number of victims

As far as i know from reading several sources, it isn`t exactly known how many cheyenne and Arapahoe were killed in the Sand Creek Massacre. There are estimations from 150 up to 500. It is the first time that i heard about 133 victims like in this article.

Steffen 21/12/2009

A biased article, on a difficult subject.
I was a bit dismayed to read this article; the author's grasp of Colorado history is entirely inaccurate. These were not soldiers who out of cruelty attacked "friendly Indians" - that assumption is due to modern revisionist history. Because of its emotional slant toward one group, and its factual inaccuracy, I have to say that the article is biased.

While it is true that the year 1858 saw the first real rush into the high mountains to search for gold and silver, there had been white settlers in the state for many years already. The areas around Denver and Boulder were well-settled. The gold and silver rush only contributed to white populations in the high mountains in the center of the state. The Sand Creek Fight took place well east of the mountains, out on the open prairie land of southeastern Colorado - well away from any mining enterprise. The settlers there had come because there was homesteading land open for farming. I am a direct descendant of several of these families, a native of Colorado, and a descendant of three of the soldiers at the Sand Creek fight.

The author has failed to paint a complete picture of the socio-political realities of the time. In the minds of the settlers, the land on which they settled was "owned" by no one before they received permission from the government to homestead it and develop it. It was difficult land, not terribly fertile; breaking it for planting for certainly a hellish job. There were no real Indian settlements there at the time besides those that traveled through the area seasonally in hunting cycles. There had been no permanent agriculture. There had been some friendly relations between the Indians and the settlers, and there had also been some problems. Several farms had been robbed and settlers attacked and killed in the years leading up to the Sand Creek attack; in the months before, violence from Indians in the area  had steadily escalated and local settlers were more and more on edge. Indians routinely helped themselves to livestock and horses, and frequently walked into cabins unannounced (they had no concept of property or privacy, so they didn't knock) and helped themselves to food and possessions they wanted. The terrified settlers gave them what they wanted to get them out and on their way. Occasionally, the Indians did more than that and left families dead.

It is also important to understand that in late 1862, the Sioux in Minnesota had staged an aggressive uprising against settlers in that state, attacking farmsteads and brutally killing hundreds of settlers - estimates run between 400 and 800. This situation had terrorized settlers across the country, and stories of that butchery and also the local attacks were at the forefront of peoples' consciousness.

With the population of southeastern Colorado becoming more terrorized, officials of the state of Colorado had become increasingly frustrated with appeals to the federal government for help and protection, which went largely ignored. This was partly because the nation was up to its neck in the Civil War at the time, and partly because people living in the eastern U.S. had no direct experience of Indian attacks - this issue had played itself out in that region generations before. There was an enormous disconnect between the way the people in the federal government and the eastern public viewed the Wild West, and the reality faced by settlers.

Finally, the state of Colorado was authorized to raise an armed force to strike back - the idea being to put fear in the hearts of the Indians who had been sniping at the settlers, and hopefully end the terror. The result was that many settlers - many of whom had direct knowledge of the conflicts and threats, and had been afraid for the safety of their families and livelihoods - joined the army in the days before the fight. Many were teenagers, others seasoned veterans of other conflicts. Many had no military training at all, and had never seen a battle in their lives. But they had been trying to protect their own homes for months or years, and they certainly saw the opportunity to do something about the threat they felt.

It is also important to understand that Chivington was an extremely controversial figure in his own time. He had made many political enemies long before the Sand Creek fight. First hand accounts of the day vary from those that paint him as an Indian-hating demon, to those that portray him as confused and betrayed. We have little way of knowing what the truth is. After the battle, there was propoganda on both sides. To this day, historians disagree on the man's true character and part in the battle, and some modern historians consider his court martial a farce.

What we do know is that the Indian camp was attacked when the majority of the males were away hunting - the U.S. army had no way of knowing this, entering the camp as they did at dawn. The author includes that the army was drinking heavily - this is merely conjecture, and came from propoganda after the fact to paint the army as drunken brutes. Other statements jumped out at me - including that the soldiers returned to the battle scene to take horses. I don't know why they would not - why would you leave the horses there to starve? I believe that taking the horses with you after a battle was likely standard practice and considered humane. Also, many horses and other livestock had been stolen from the settlers.

After the battle, those who were political enemies of Chivington started circulating stories that resulted in his court martial. At the same time, stories started circulating in towns further east of the atrocities committed by soldiers at the battle. Some modern historians, bowing to political correctness, don't like to consider that these were at least in part the gross exaggerations of a few boasting soldiers, or of those opposed to the settlers - persons who had no real direct knowledge of the battle or the situation leading to it.

As for myself, I have no doubt that some of the soldiers were brutal, and that some of the worst of the stories - which I heard with horror as a child - were at least partly true. I have read the documentation and first hand accounts, and see no evidence that these actions were taken by the majority, but rather by a few soldiers alone. I also have no doubt that most of those involved were not racist brutes, but men trying to protect their families and farms and towns, and did their duty as they had to - no more and no less. As a descendant of two of the local teenagers present (my mother's side) and one older seasoned soldier from the Boulder area (father's side), I also know that the battle left plenty of scars to go around as did the months and years of violence leading up to it. Boys who grew up in that area grew up with the constant threat of violence from Indians, and many had memories of finding settlers dead. To pretend that only one side was the aggressor, and that there was only suffering on the other side, is an insult to all those who lived through those difficult times, and it shows a lack of education about the realities of the society and times in which these people lived.

A rare book has been reprinted, on the history of Colorado. It gives the perspective of those who lived at the time and fought at Sand Creek - True History of Some of the Pioneers of Colorado, by Luella Shaw. It is available in many Colorado libraries and online bookstores. Various books discuss Chivington, the controversy surrounding his reputation at the time, and his political situation.

S. A. Allen, Colorado Springs —Preceding unsigned comment added by Momspack4 (talk • contribs) 17 August 2010 (UTC)

"To pretend that only one side was the aggressor, and that there was only suffering on the other side......" - and if a foreign civilization appeared on the shores of the present-day U.S. and began to colonize could the current inhabitants be considered aggressors if they attempted to resist? I'm sorry if the historical record casts your ancestors in a bad light but the fact is the white settlers were invaders who, albeit slowly, brutally supplanted the indigenous peoples of the land. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.54.55.109 (talk) 04:51, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

This is a moot point, the issue is not the general aggression of Indians at that time, that is the same mistake Chivington made, the tribes were not a universal force under a single leader with a single motive. Black Kettle had recently signed a truce with the US and his tipi had an American flag draped on demonstrating such, it was surrounded by women waving white flags. There was no mistake, this was a friendly tribe. 198.151.13.8 (talk) 23:54, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

A few comments on Mr. Allen's contribution:

„While it is true that the year 1858 saw the first real rush into the high mountains to search for gold and silver, there had been white settlers in the state for many years already. The areas around Denver and Boulder were well-settled.”

This is simply wrong. Boulder settlement was formed in 1858 by gold mining squatters. Likewise, Denver and Aurora were founded in the Colorado Gold Rush – in direct violation of the 1851 Horse Creek Treaty which gave whites no more than a right of way. Before the Gold Rush there had been no mining in the Rockies and only a handful of trading posts for trade with the Indian tribes, basically the enterprises of Bent and Saint Vrain. If you have any information on any further settlements of Whites in Colorado I would be interested in learning about it. I very much doubt there is anything more than what I mentioned.

“The author has failed to paint a complete picture of the socio-political realities of the time. In the minds of the settlers, the land on which they settled was "owned" by no one before they received permission from the government to homestead it and develop it.“

Yes, and their self-serving POV simply ignored the law. The US was bound by the 1851 treaty to expel these squatters from Cheyenne-Arapaho lands. You paint the local tribes as interlopers on white settlements who would “help themselves” on white property and even raid settlements. What you wantonly fail to acknowledge is that it was the squatters who were the interlopers who destroyed the Indian means of subsistence.

“Finally, the state of Colorado was authorized to raise an armed force to strike back - the idea being to put fear in the hearts of the Indians who had been sniping at the settlers, and hopefully end the terror.”

That’s self-serving propaganda, aimed at portraying land-grabbers and ethnic cleansers as victims and the victims of ethnic cleansing as the villains. The Colorado 1st Volunteer Cavalry was formed already in November 1862 and saw action against Confederate forces at Glorietta Pass. In late March 1864 they received orders to redeploy east to fight Confederates outside the territory. Within less than a fortnight they staged several attacks on Cheyennes and thus instigated the Colorado War that would keep them from having to redeploy east.

“What we do know is that the Indian camp was attacked when the majority of the males were away hunting - the U.S. army had no way of knowing this, entering the camp as they did at dawn.“

In fact we know that this was not the case. What we do know is that none less than Chivington himself (Camp Weld meeting) but also Major Antony and Major Wynkoop had all ordered the peacefully inclined Indians to camp near Fort Lyon. Antony kept them there until Chivington’s raiding force arrived at Sand Creek to launch a raid at the unsuspecting Indians.

“…atrocities committed by soldiers at the battle. Some modern historians, bowing to political correctness, don't like to consider that these were at least in part the gross exaggerations of a few boasting soldiers, or of those opposed to the settlers - persons who had no real direct knowledge of the battle or the situation leading to it.“

Wrong again. The overwhelming majority of the witness accounts presented at the inquiries was eyewitness accounts of men who had been present at the battle.

“I also have no doubt that most of those involved were not racist brutes, but men trying to protect their families and farms and towns, and did their duty as they had to - no more and no less.“

Which meant, as per Chivington, “kill them all, big and small, nits make lice”. The overwhelming majority of the Indians killed at Sand Creek were women and children.

“…and many had memories of finding settlers dead. To pretend that only one side was the aggressor, and that there was only suffering on the other side, is an insult to all those who lived through those difficult times, and it shows a lack of education about the realities of the society and times in which these people lived.“

Sure the Indians did strike back. Would you show the sincerity to identify which killings of settlers might have occurred prior to the volunteer unit raids on Cheyennes in April and May 1864 which started the war? Probably none. Obfusciating cause and effect is indeed an insult to the suffering of the people who lived through this period, especially the people who called this their home and were not recently arrived squatters.

Lookoo (talk) 12:06, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Battle Box
When it comes to massacres like the Malmedy Massacre the box used in this page is fine. However, when it comes to incidents involving combat that are named battles, such as this, a battle box should be used. Though women and children died, the US Army suffered about 75 casualties including over twenty dead, that doesn't sound like a massacre in defintion, which is an attack on a completely unarmed or a lightly defended group of people. In this case the natives were not lightly armed, the engagement is called a battle just as much as a massacre so a battle box should be used for this article.--$1LENCE D00600D (talk) 02:42, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

A massacre is a massacre is a massacre. Treating this like a battle is morally repugnant. 129.105.250.137 (talk) 22:17, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Source of testimony of Mr. John S. Smith
The article quotes the testimony of Mr. John S. Smith and gives the reference a PBS web page: This source –  – quotes from the same testimony and gives as the original: The reference in the article should be changed to refer to the original source, naturally maintaining the link to the PBS on-line copy. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 06:37, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * U.S. Cong., Senate, 39 Cong., 2nd Sess., "The Chivington Massacre," Reports of the Committees..

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. — ΛΧΣ  21  07:20, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Sand Creek massacre → Sand Creek Massacre – The Sand Creek Massacre is a proper name and should be capitalized. Buaidh 14:05, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose a quick google search shows both styles being used, in which case the Manual of Style says that the current edition is correct.Coffeepusher (talk) 14:16, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - as per Coffeepusher's reasonang, and because it is arguable that it is a proper name. Pretty much any event, from a birthday party onward can be found named in capitals, generally ungrammatically. It could perhaps be said that major historic events (unlike the subject of this one) have proper names, but this massacre is not such. Even for major events you will find uncapitalised usage such as 'the first world war'. Imc (talk) 19:05, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, if you can find uncapitalised usage of "the first world war" yet we still use "First World War" in our article, does that not suggest that individual instances of uncapitalised usage should not preclude as from using capitals if that is handled by most RS?
 * I don't have a strong opinion on this, but reading the text of the first few pages of google book results, they all seem to treat it as a proper name. Dlv999 (talk) 20:32, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Well if there is widespread and common use of the capitalised version in RS, then I agree that it could be reasonable to capitalise it here. That was not the argument made by the proposer, it was just an assertion that it is a proper name. Also it would be useful to have some consistency - compare other massacres, some distinctly better known, Srebrenica massacre, Katyn massacre, Deir Yassin massacre, Bloody Gulch massacre and many more. I've not tried to look up references to them. Imc (talk) 06:31, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Sand Creek High School
To the best of my knowledge, Sand Creek High School is named after this Sand Creek and not Big Sandy Creek or the massacre that took place there. 75.163.216.64 (talk) 02:17, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Spoke with a teacher at this school this morning and he indicated this is his belief as well. I removed the reference until I can determine factually one way or another. TurboManiacal (talk) 15:14, 9 December 2019 (UTC)TurboManiacal
 * Nice work, ! If there's anything you can add to the school's article, too, that would be great. It looks a little empty (and without WP:RS) at the moment :) - ChrisWar666 (talk) 11:54, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

“Indians”
Why does this article not use the term “Native American” or “Native” in place of the antiquated and incorrect term “Indian”? 2601:281:D080:5850:CD83:E4FC:E07C:233 (talk) 04:26, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

There is no consensus on Wikipedia nor among the original inhabitants that these terms are antiquated or incorrect. Fettlemap (talk) 19:03, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

"Creek Massacre" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Creek_Massacre&redirect=no Creek Massacre] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Mdewman6 (talk) 02:56, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Sand Creek massacre


text:
Wikipedia:WikiProject Australia/To-do/Literature

 * See WP Australian Literature/To do for a more comprehensive list

This is an unsorted list of figures in Australian literature.

 * Jack Beasley (critic)
 * Tom Inglis Moore
 * Bill Wannan
 * Eric Willmot


text:
Ben Macdhui (Eastern Cape)

Ben Macdhui (also spelled Ben Macdui) is a 3001 m mountain in the Eastern Cape province of South Africa. It was named after Ben Macdui in Scotland. It is the highest peak in the Eastern Cape that is entirely within South Africa, and the highest pass in South Africa.

title: Ben Macdhui (Eastern Cape)


text:
Wikipedia:WikiProject Australia/To-do/Arts

This is an unsorted list of figures in Australian arts. Some will need disambiguating, some existing articles may need work, and many need to be created.

 * Tim Chappel
 * Joanne Desmond
 * Kane Guglielmi
 * Agnes Goodsir
 * Barry Oakley
 * Justin Hill
 * Ben Milbourne
 * Bruce Roberts
 * John and Sunday Reed
 * Katie Robertson
 * Albert Tucker


text:
Wikipedia:WikiProject Australia/To-do/Sportspeople

This is an unsorted list of figures in Australian sport. Some will need disambiguating, some existing articles may need work, and many need to be created.

Gary Ablett - Phil Anderson - Darrell Baldock - Ron Barassi - Layne Beachley (who? - seven time female world surfing champion...) - Allan Border - Raylene Boyle - Jack Brabham - Donald Bradman - Dermott Brereton - Peter Brock - Norman Brooks - Charles Brownlow - Haydnn Bunton - Wayne Carey - Pat Cash - Roy Cazaly - Percy Cerutty - Greg Chappell - Ian Chappell - Ric Charlesworth - Belinda Clark - Baden Cooke - Ashley Cooper - Margaret Court - Gordon Coventry - Robert de Castella - Jack Crawford - Betty Cuthbert - Michael Doohan - Roy Emerson - Johnny Famechon - Fred Fanning - Polly Farmer - Debbie Flintoff-King - Lisa Forrest - Dawn Fraser - Neale Fraser - Cathy Freeman - Andrew Gaze - Evonne Cawley - Shane Gould - Tom Hafey - Lleyton Hewitt - James Hird - Lew Hoad - Peter Hudson - Alex Jesaulenko - Patrick Johnson - Michael Klim - Jon Konrads - Rod Laver - Dennis Lillee - Tony Lockett - Michael Long - Robbie McEwan - Rod Marsh - Barry Michael - Keith Miller - Anthony Mundine - John Newcombe - Gerald Patterson - Adrian Quist - Patrick Rafter - Roger Rasheed - Tony Roche - Lionel Rose - Ken Rosewall - Bill Roycroft - Anne Sargeant - Frank Sedgman - Kevin Sheedy - Bob Simpson - Bobby Skilton - Norm Smith - Ian Stewart (Australian footballer) - Fred Stolle - Mark Taylor (cricketer) - Ian Thorpe - Shane Warne - Ivor Warne-Smith - Steve Waugh - Mark Waugh - Ted Whitten - Tom Wills (inventor of Aussie Rules) -


text:
Ben Macdui

Ben Macdui (Beinn MacDuibh, meaning "MacDuff's mountain") is the second-highest mountain in Scotland and all of the British Isles, after Ben Nevis, and the highest of the Cairngorm Mountains. The summit is 1309 m above sea level and it is classed as a Munro. Ben Macdui sits on the southwestern edge of the Cairngorm plateau, overlooking the Lairig Ghru pass to the west, and Loch Etchachan to the east. It lies on the boundary between the historic counties of Aberdeenshire and Banffshire.

Before the production of accurate maps of Scotland in the 19th century, it was not known for certain that Ben Nevis was the highest point in Britain, and it was often thought that Ben Macdui might be higher. Following surveys of both peaks in 1846–47, Ben Nevis was confirmed as the higher. The summit of the mountain has a direction indicator erected in 1925 by the Cairngorm Club of Aberdeen in memory of former president Alexander Copland. The indicator shows the directions of the most noteworthy mountains that can be seen from the summit in clear weather.

Snow patches have been known to persist at various locations on Ben Macdui, most notably Garbh Uisge Beag. The mountain is said to be haunted by the legendary Am Fear Liath Mòr (Big Grey Man).

History
After the defeat of Domnall mac Uilliam in 1187, Donnchad II, Earl of Fife, acquired Stratha'an, a territory stretching from Ballindalloch to Ben Macdui. Because the mountain marked the western boundary of Donnchad's territory, Gaelic scholar historian F.C. Diack and place-name scholar Professor G.W.S. Barrow have suggested that the mountain took its name from Donnchad's family, the Mac Duibh. Another suggestion is that the name comes from the Gaelic for "black pig", muc dhubh, referring to its shape. A 19th-Century Ordnance Survey name book suggests the name signifies "The Black Son mountain".

In 1810 a Rev Dr Keith surveyed the heights of several Cairngorm summits using a barometer, estimating the height of Ben Macdui to be 4300 ft. This sparked interest in whether it, or Ben Nevis, was the highest summit in Scotland. The Ordnance Survey built a trig point on the summit in 1847 in order to accurately survey the height, confirming that Ben Nevis was indeed the higher. The surveyors also built a small shelter that became known as the "Sappers' Bothy", the remains of which can still be seen. Following these surveys, there were plans to build a cairn on top of Ben Macdui to make its height greater than Ben Nevis, but these plans did not come to fruition.

Queen Victoria hiked to the summit on 7 October 1859, aged forty. About her experience, she wrote: "It had a sublime and solemn effect, so wild, so solitary – no one but ourselves and our little party there ... I had a little whisky and water, as the people declared pure water would be too chilling."

During the Second World War commando troops training in the Cairngorms visited the summit of Ben Macdui, building small shelters to the northeast of the summit. In early 1940 a plane crashed at the top of the Allt a' Choire Mhòir, to the northwest of the summit.

Climbing
Probably the easiest route of ascent is from the Coire Cas car park at the foot of Cairngorm Ski Centre by a path that leads up over slowly rising moorland. This route is about 7 km (4 mi) long; a somewhat longer route allows one also to climb Cairn Gorm. One possible alternative route follows the path coming up from Loch Etchachan. This loch may be reached from Loch Avon to the north or by coming up from Glen Derry to the south. Other routes include coming over Derry Cairngorm, or via the Lairig Ghru pass, which lies to the west of Ben Macdui.

Nearly all these routes are long days by Scottish standards. When coming from the south it is common to use a bicycle to cover the 5 km (3½ mi) from the road end at Linn of Dee to Derry Lodge at the southern end of the massif.

Am Fear Liath Mòr
The area of Ben Macdui is said to be haunted by the legendary Am Fear Liath Mòr ('the Big Grey Man') or 'Greyman'. There have been several accounts of an unnatural presence, with mountaineer Norman Collie claiming to have heard footsteps before fleeing from the summit in terror.

title: Ben Macdui