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Wikipedia talk:UK Wikipedians' notice board/Archive 1

Hi, feel free to leave your comments here while I costruct this community page. -- Graham ☺ | Talk 19:03, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Subdivisions
This may not be the case, but to get the whole cultural community thing going, you could always try separate Scotland, Wales and England boards. Northern Ireland too of course, although the Irish board is not specifically Republic of Ireland only.

Just a thought! You could always have them as well as this board! zoney ♣ talk 20:31, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * That may be something to do in the future, but at the moment I'm struggling to get enough articles to fill the relevant space just for the UK. Let's start here and see how it goes. -- Graham  ☺ | Talk 20:42, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

List of UK Wikipedians
Would it be worthwhile grouping us geographically, so we can see who is closest? --Phil | Talk 06:56, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)
 * The difficulty with that is that not everyone wants others to know what part of the country they are in, and we ought really to allow them that privacy. I think alphabetical order of user names is the best order, to be honest.

Privatisation of British Rail article
Oh my God! I've just taken a look at that article from the link on here, and just have to say that this article is so wrong in so many respects I'll have to have a go at rewriting the whole thing. I'll have to have a think for a few days what I'm going to say -- having lived through the whole thing as a BR employee (and now officially "retired" rail staff in my mid 40s!) I have trouble remembering exactly in how many ways the whole thing was screwed up. NPOV is going to be difficult on this one....! -- Arwel 23:14, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * The really hard part will be verifiability and references. Quote others' opinions on what a colossal cockup it was ;-) - David Gerard 23:58, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Articles
As the current lot of articles gets cleaned up/created I am conscious that more will be needed to fill their spaces. Feel free to scan cleanup/pages needing attention/requested articles for more than can be listed. -- Graham ☺ | Talk 23:29, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Parliamentary constituencies
I was thinkinging of putting Parliamentary constituencies of the UK parliament (or similar) on the to-do list. An adjunct to this would be articles on the constituencies themselves, past and present. If we worked hard, we might have the lot listed by the time of the next election. No reason not to do the NI, Welsh, Scottish and European constituencies too. Mintguy (T)

 * Are individual articles needed? I mean, constituencies tend to be either fairly arbitary divisions of cities, or based upon the districts of counties? If its a district then it'll probably already have a page... and how much is there to say about divisions of cities? [Example: Portsmouth south is the electoral constituancy covering the southern portion of the city of Portsmouth; while the North tends to vote Monster Raving Looney, the South has a tendency to vote Green]... these could be added as sections within the description of the city. --NeilTarrant 17:30, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * There are a handful already - see Category:UK Parliamentary constituencies . Virtually every constituency has a history of past members and voting patterns that is worth detailing. I don't think it's workable to sticking this info on the relevant city page as many seats cross local government boundaries, others take in several local areas and the result is quite confusing. Better to have individual pages so the info can be easily accessed. Timrollpickering 17:38, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Just to note, "constituencies" before the nineteenth century were just the counties or boroughs. So, in effect, this task would cover all constituencies that have existed since the Reform Act. -- Emsworth 17:50, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * No, before the Reform Act there were the county constituencies, some boroughs and the universities (Oxford and Cambridge and Trinity College Dublin from 1801), these all have a rich history and should be covered as contituencies and not lumped into the county or town articles. We have plenty of articles that say soandso represented suchandsuch in parliament and these should link to the constituency article and not the town/county. Many modern day constituencies have been formed from the merger and division of those older county/borough contituencies. My home constituency which was formely a borough has sent representatives to the House of Commons since the Model Parliament of 1295, that's over 700 years of representation, more than enough information for an article I'm sure you'll agree. Mintguy (T) 23:19, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Well, your idea involves a bit of work, but I have no problem with it. I admit that articles on constituencies such as Dunwich and Old Sarum will be quite interesting. -- Emsworth 00:01, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I forgot the cinque port constituencies. Mintguy (T) 00:35, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * When I get some time I'll go to my local library and see if I can get a list of all the representatives for my home constituency and the elections results for as long as they have records for, this could then be used as a template for other constituencies. Mintguy (T) 00:38, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Good, I'll hang on till you've done that then see if I can get the same for Aylesbury and the rest of Bucks. Incidentally, I noticed a message on Morwen's talk page about some controversy surrounding Chiltern Hundreds - is anyone able to clear this one up in Morwen's absence? -- Graham  ☺ | Talk 00:42, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Constituencies keep changing names and precise boundaries. How do you define what constitutes a different constituency? And anyway, I'd imagine not all of them are worth an article in their own right, just some of them. Jongarrettuk 20:59, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * In the current pages the "same constituency" is taken to be the use of the name, with the various boundary changes noted - for example Mid Ulster (constituency) currently contains about 30% of the original seat of that name (and West Tyrone (constituency) contains more) but a single page is used to cover the seat since it was created in 1950. When the name is changed a new page is used - for instance Armagh (constituency) is treated as distinct from the subsequent Newry & Armagh (constituency).

 * I'd guess this is workable, although if the boundary changes were massive, or alternatively the name got reallocated, we may want to split the pages. Fortunately Wikipedia is not paper... Timrollpickering 21:12, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Since the Reform Act there have been enfranchisement, disenfranchisement, redrawn boundaries, constituencies united, constituencies divided, constituencies merged, redivided and abolished. Mostly these changes have happened as a result of Representation of the People Acts of 1918, 1928, 1948 and 1969 and now the continual reviews by the Boundary Commision. I think that it is possible to list a continuity for most constituencies. where there is a minimal change such as a small boundary changes or simply a renaming I think that can contain everything one one page. Those constituencies that only existed for one or two elections still have the potential to contain details of the results of elections and the wards etc.. Where else on the web can you get all of this information in one place? Mintguy (T) 21:32, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I've been to the library and have got the elected members for Lewes from 1298-1820 with a gap for 1473-1547 where the results have apparently been lost. Mintguy (T) 11:23, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Reworking of British toponymy
Comments and suggestions would be very much welcomed at Talk:British toponymy regarding the (currently very poor) arrangement of the British toponymy articles. Toponymy itself isn't the greatest-looking of lists either. violet/riga (t) 09:03, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I've left my thoughts at Talk:British toponymy. -- Graham ☺ | Talk 00:03, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Complete todo list
Do we have a "complete todo list"? I can't see a link... fabiform | talk 13:35, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Not yet but if you want to start one here's the link.

 * UK Wikipedians' notice board/Complete to do list

 * I was going to go through several lists and transcribe all the red links into one list later this weekend. -- Graham ☺ | Talk 13:41, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Fair use
Does anyone know if there is a UK equivalent to the image fair use policy? -- Graham ☺ | Talk 14:30, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * The equivalent concept in UK copyright law is "fair dealing", which is apparently less flexible than fair use under US law. --rbrwr±

Wikimedia Meetup 2005
Hi - glad to see that a UK noticeboard has been set up. I see that our friends across the Irish Sea are mounting a campaign to run the Wikimedia Meetup 2005 in Ireland. Meanwhile, the UK's entry on the list of possible venues - see the entry for London - is pretty pathetic. Rather than improve the entry for London, I think it's worth considering Oxford. There are lots of potential advantages: possible availability of accommodation for visitors at colleges, good transport links, less crowded than London and, of course, the presence of the Bodleian Library. As the  'meetup' page points out, the main evaluation criterion when selecting a venue will be the availability of local wikipedians who are willing to help organise the event. I live 30 mins from Oxford, in Newbury, Berkshire and would be willing to consider helping. Is anyone else interested in getting involved? I think we should at least include a possible venue in the UK, whether or not it's Oxford. Jerry 16:10, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I'm willing to help out if you want to add Oxford to the list of possible venues. However I feel that as the Wikimedia Meetup 2004 took place in London the likelihood of it coming to the UK again for a couple of years is slim.  However on this score I am interested in organising a UK WikiMeet 2005 prior to the Wikimedia Meetup (if it's not to take place in the UK) so that more UK users' views can be represented in the broader forum. -- Graham  ☺ | Talk 16:53, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Oops - I didn't realise that the 2004 event was in the UK: should have investigated further. Jerry 18:03, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I think that we should support Dublin for the meet in any case. It's not that far and it's a very pleasant city for a weekend trip. -- Derek Ross | Talk
 * Very -- it's nearly two years since I last visited the Porter House on Parliament Street.... not to mention that I can get there and back for £4 and 75 eurocents! :) -- Arwel 19:51, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I missed the 2004 meet-up (I have to say I wasn't aware of it until after the event). I agree I think we should put our lot in with the Irish and support Dublin. Mintguy (T) 08:15, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The 2004 meet-up was a wikimeet rather than the wikimeet - Jimbo also attended wikimeets in France, Germany and elsewhere around the same time. So that shouldn't stop us trying for the big one. I understand the candidates are going to be reduced somewhat in a few days time (on the 10th I think) with availability of local helpers being a high priority. So if we want to push for Dublin or any other local venue we'd better get going! Oxford sounds good to me, although I'm not sure what the internaional travel options are. Birmingham or London may be better from that point of view. -- sannse (talk) 17:13, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * sannse is right. The meetup this year was completely different from what is being planned for 2005. The event next year is an international convention with invited speakers and a four day programme. Having said that, places which have previously held a smaller meetup are at an advantage as they have a better idea of planning events than places that have never met up. For this reason, it might be good to hold a smaller event in Ireland prior to the 2005 meetup if it is going to be there. Dublin has made it to the final selection anyway, so it stands a good chance now, whereas there seemed to be a comparative lack of interest from UK Wikipedians in holding it here. Angela. 20:08, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

 * International travel options from Oxford: Direct coaches to Heathrow every 20-30 minutes (£18 return), Gatwick every hour (£26 return), Stansted every 2 hours (£20 return) , direct trains to Birmingham International every hour (~£23 return).  Coaches to London virtually every 10 minutes (~£13 return) ,  (from Eurostar (Waterloo) catch Oxford coach at Victoria via 211 bus, or at Baker Street via bakerloo line).  -- ,,, Trainspotter ,,,  19:16, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Bristol is doing transatlantic flights now, and it has loads of wikipedians! Since aproximately 85% of photos on wikipedia were taken in Bristol, it might be nice for wikipedians to see the sights first hand :) --Steinsky 17:33, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

If we're going to do anything about this we'll need to pull out our virtual fingers. Perhaps it's a bit too late in the day to a. agree between us on a possible location (Bristol/Oxford/London/Birmingham - all in England, I notice) b. ensure we have enough wikipedians in the chosen venue signed up to help c. make the case - advantages and disadvantages - for whichever venue we chose. I'd be happy to be proved wrong, but perhaps supporting the Dublin bid might be the best option for UK-wikipedians particularly as it's cheaper to fly there, from many places in the UK, than it is to travel around the UK by train. (I frequently fly Bristol/Dublin, Steinsky, which is particulalry civilised compared with Heathrow and Gatwick.). The other benefit of Dublin is that we don't have to do any of the work - hurrah! Jerry 07:20, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Come to Dublin! I'm not at all biased! Besides, it'll be nice for some of us Irish wikipedians to go abroad to Dublin :-) zoney ♣ talk 10:09, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * OK - Dublin sounds good to me, I agree with Jerry - let's put our collective weight behind the Dublin bid -- sannse (talk) 12:30, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Agreed, let's see what difference we can make before Sunday. -- Graham ☺ | Talk 12:57, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I hope our friends across the water appreciate this massive gesture of goodwill! They still seem a little embarrassed that English is the first language of most of the population (see the list of Dublin's benefits). Perhaps it's the fact that it's called 'English'?  Maybe someone should also point out that most Nigerians speak English, which isn't surprising as it's the country's official language.  Jerry 16:02, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Jerry, actually we have two official languages in Ireland, Irish and English, with English officially second to Irish. In reality of course, quite different, but that's another kettle of fish! zoney ♣ talk 16:09, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Erosion of British English usage and spellings
There is a tendency in Wikipedia for articles to be modified over time to have predominantly American spellings and usage; and then someone will come along and says "It's time to standardize (sic) to AE spellings". They then cut out all BE spellings. I think we need some kind of firewatch over the erosion of BE usage. The latest is User:Deglr6328 who has been going round systematically changing sulphur to sulfur because the IUPAC recommend "sulfur". AFAIK the IUPAC have no jurisdiction over the English language Mintguy (T) 08:43, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I believe that goes against WP policy, which is to keep the original article's spelling (whether British or US English) unless it refers specifically to one of the two areas. "Sulphur" is definitely BE rather than "incorrect", and so I'd feel perfectly justified in reverting all his edits. Proteus (Talk) 08:57, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * In pages like Encyclopaedia, where contributors so far spell at will, with or without the 'ae'. I have no doubt that somebody soon will go through the lot changing them all to the 'e' spelling Apwoolrich 10:14, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Sulphur is a special case. Where the term is used chemicaly it should follow the IUPAC rules. Of course this applies to all elements including Aluminium where the US spelling (aluminum) is non standard.Geni 11:04, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Bah. They probably standardised on "sulfur" just to placate the US spelling people who didn't get to use "aluminum"!!! zoney ♣ talk 11:16, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Sulphur/sulfur is a bit of a special case, I don't really have a problem with it, except that trying to apply a similar rule to aluminium/aluminum would get shouted down. See also talk:caesium. Metre/meter is another one to watch for. -- DrBob 15:50, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Yoghurt! But it's been hard work keeping it that way. -- Derek Ross | Talk 16:39, 2004 Oct 6 (UTC)

 * Someone threatened you with an RfC for keeping the non-US spelling of yoghurt? Sheesh. -- DrBob 17:57, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Adding my support here as a Hiberno-English speaker. Whilst we do not want to run the risk of antagonising people and causing edit wars, we should do all we can to uphold non-US spellings where practicable under WP policy. I generally use "non-US" rather than British, because they apply to most places in the world other than the USA. I would like a push for all articles not specific to the US to be written without US spellings – i.e. the default would be "British English". But I guess that's asking a bit much! In the meantime, cleaning up stray US spellings where not appropriate should be fine. Also, look out for new articles that do not have one nor the other spelling yet, if any "British" spelling is added to these, keep watch and ensure no US spellings are added. Obviously I am speaking of non-US topics! This issue affects more than those who participate on this UK board, so I suggest a new project (Gratuitous US spellings? Perhaps too inflammatory :-), where Irish, Australians, etc. can also list topics being infringed upon by US spelling. zoney ♣ talk 10:47, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Your "push" would make sense logically - not only do the vast majority of non-US English-speaking countries use "International English", but also most people learning English as a second language. The US doesn't even have a numerical advantage, with the vast number of English-speakers in India (and now China as well). To have such a vast majority of articles written in a dialect effectively limited to two countries must cast some doubt on Wikipedia's attempt to be the international encyclopaedia. To go around actively changing words to minority spellings is just crazy. (As an aside, it would seem to be common sense that, for instance, any page specific to France should use International English, as that is the form of English used by most French people who speak English.) Proteus (Talk) 11:21, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Indeed Proteus, I insist on non-US spellings for European articles, such as European Union. That is in accordance with Wikipedia policy, as such topics are not appropriate for US spellings. It's not the same situation as "Livestock" for example (a truly "neutral" topic). zoney ♣ talk 13:26, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I'd normally call it "International English" rather than "British English" - but then being a Scot my English is British, but not "British English" ;) - TB 11:24, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)

 * The silly thing is that it isn't really "something English" - it's just "English". We don't force the French to call their language "French French" or "European French" or "International French" to distinguish it from "Canadian French", because French is the standard language spoken by native French people and everyone learning it as a foreign language, just as "International" English is. Proteus (Talk) 11:29, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Proteus wrote: The US doesn't even have a numerical advantage, with the vast number of English-speakers in India (and now China as well).
 * The number of speakers is not really to the point; the number of readers and writers is. Before we launch the Queen's English Spelling Crusade, does anyone have credible figures for US vs. UK vs. Other english written dialect numbers?  Charles Stewart 14:43, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I don't imagine the difference between speakers and readers would be significant with English - most native speakers come from very literate countries and anyone learning it as a foreign language will be almost certainly be literate (because illiterate people don't generally learn foreign languages) and so both types of speaker are highly likely to be able to read and write English as well. As a start, though, English language gives figures of 400m first language speakers and 350-1000m second language speakers. The population of the United States is 293m, of whom (according to Languages in the United States) 82% (or 240m) have English as their first language. Just over 17.5m people in Canada have English as their first language (and Canadian English is closer to BE in spelling, anyway, although closer to AE in pronunciation). I'm sure someone can find better statistics, though. Proteus (Talk) 15:27, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I'd guess that most illiterate English speakers come from Commonwealth countries, precisely the countries we are counting towards British English (eg. from India: India's literacy rate is 64.8%, with 53.7% of females being literate; South Africa will be worse). Also, you can't say countries lean US or UK monolithically: here in Germany, British English is taught at school, but a high proportion of adult Germans follow American English because that is what dominates the commercial English-language schools.  I agree, though, the statistics should be out there...  Charles Stewart 15:43, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * How should we treat words which only exist in American English, regardless of how they are spelt? I’m thinking of words like ‘normalcy’ as in ‘A sense of normalcy has returned to New York.’ Presumably we should use 'normality' instead, in this case, but it sort of loses something (although I'm not sure what) in translation  Incidentally, I heard a US Army General use an interesting variation on this earlier today on the BBC when he talked about the need to help the grieving relatives of soldiers killed in Iraq return to ‘normalicy’ (I kid you not).  Jerry 18:23, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I'm pretty sure when "normalcy" was first used, it wasn't meant to be used again. I may be wrong, but the first usage of that word was tied into Warren G. Harding's 1920 presidential campaign. It would be a word that just won't die. Mike H 18:26, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)

(William M. Connolley 18:29, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)) In regard to sulphur/sulfur, I've corrected Hell (lakes of fiery S etc had been changed) and the 1955 Nobel Prize in Chemistry entry, which was a quotation and therefore should have stayed as the original.

In terms of words and constructions that are clearly American (eg 'normalcy'), sometimes the US/British/International split cannot be avoided. If there's a common word or construction that is suitable under all forms of English - use that (here, use 'normality'). Certainly avoid, where possible, uniquely US constructions. For instance, on 'September 11, 2001 attacks' someone has started a campaign to try to call it the distinctly odd 'September 11, 2001, attacks'! They've even started a poll to try to change it.

The other point I want to make is that US English can appear terribly archaic to non-American readers. They like old spellings, old grammar (like using the subjunctive much more frequently than we do here), and old punctuation (whereas British English has gotten rid of many commas, hyphens, etc.). It must be reasonable for US wikipedians to, at the very least, accept that some of their archaisms should be replaced with modern International English. Jongarrettuk 19:26, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm a US citizen who is also an incredably bad speller. The difference between words like "defence" and "defense" hardly matters to me, as I'm just as likely to type one as the other. ;-) Most of the US spelling "drift" is probably not intentional. It's only since joining Wikipedia that I've come to realize how many spelling differences there are. There are exceptions, however: a few US wikipedians actually appear to be "spelling warriors," a very strange form of POV to be pushing IMHO, but they do seem to exist. Perhaps we can get User:Xed to post another message about "systematic bias," ie: the problem may simply be that many of the US editors are not aware of the problem? func(talk) 19:51, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

In articles on chemistry (or, in fact, on any other scientific topic), IUPAC spellings should, I believe, be used. Thus, aluminium and sulfur, rather than aluminum and sulphur. (And so on for sulfuric acid, sulfate, etc.) Similarly, in scientific articles, SI spellings are preferred: thus, litre and metre, rather than liter and meter. -- Emsworth 20:19, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Since we're all dedicated educators (we write encyclopedia articles for fun!) I suggest that we do pepper the 'pedia with our language, and make sure that it is still included... but rather than get angry when we face people who think that yoghurt is a made-up spelling, we should educate them (gently). :) And to lighten the mood still further, have you all seen this wonderful bit of humour by TimStarling? - Guerilla UK spelling campaign . fabiform | talk 20:54, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * There is, of course, also the Gorilla US spelling campaign. :) -- Arwel 23:06, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I've tried to add a translation to this, but was unsure of a few things - perhaps someone bilingual in US/British English could help out:) Jongarrettuk 23:17, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Very funny but They colonized our shores -- surely some mistake? They colonised their own shores.  We stayed at home (until recently at any rate). -- Derek Ross |  Talk 23:58, 2004 Oct 6 (UTC)
 * Excellent, but it leaves me wondering what we do about pronunciation in cases where the spelling is identical in both Amerilish and English.   I've never understood (although that probably means I wasn't paying attention when I read 'Mother Tongue') why Americans spell 'herb' but say 'erb' particularly as they pronounce 'herbicide' as 'herbicide'.  (Let's not get into 'mayor'.) Jerry 03:09, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * You're telling me. That is so strange. A herd of goats but an 'erbal shampoo. Why ? -- Derek Ross |  Talk 03:59, 2004 Oct 7 (UTC)

 * Bizarrely I've had MS Word suggest a change from "a" to "an" in front of some words beginning with "h" - obviously using UK/Irish spellcheck. Problem is, I certainly don't use silent "h"s! zoney ♣ talk 10:05, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I know, it's almost as strange as pronouncing "Lieutenant" as "left tenant". ;-) func(talk) 04:18, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Good point func, there's more than you ever wanted to know about this subject - except an explanation of the diffent pronunciations - here . As you'll see, Australians pronounce it both ways, so think yourself lucky.... Jerry 06:55, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * A loo tenant is someone who lives in a toilet.

OK, here's a challenge for us. Let's see if we can make a difference. On ( Categories for deletion now at Categories for deletion Noisy | Talk 13:35, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)), User:Beland is intending to move 49 countries from one categorization naming scheme to another, because the 50th country (USA) has a different usage. This doesn't seem correct to me: what do you think? Noisy | Talk 23:23, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I wonder if it would be possible to come up with a technological fix to the International English/American English problem. Perhaps something like a 'skin' could be developed which would parse words into whichever version the user preferred. This wouldn't help much with categorisation anomalies like that mentioned by Noisy above, but hopefully lots of cross referencing and use of disambiguation pages would. Jerry 19:59, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Wikimedia Chapter
Just found this link on Angela's user page: British Wikimedia chapter. Noisy | Talk 18:06, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I'll add it to the see also section of this page -- Graham ☺ | Talk 19:33, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

An interesting question
Given the above discussion on the use of American English versus British English, do we call ourselves Wikipedians on this board, or Wikipaedians? -- Graham ☺ | Talk 23:35, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Or subjects of HRH King Jimbo, perhaps? fabiform | talk 23:48, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Wikipædians, I should hope. :-) Proteus (Talk) 23:52, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I never could understand why Americans got so wound up about foot fetishists until I came across the 'e' and not 'æ' spelling for encyclopædia. Noisy | Talk 00:15, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * How very pædestrian of you.... ;-) func(talk) 00:45, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

List of UK Wikipedians (2)
We're duplicating ourselves - see Wikipedians/United_Kingdom. I propose using category:UK Wikipedian instead, and those who wish can mark their user pages appropriately... Martin 16:20, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes, a category might be a good idea, although I think maybe new users would find it easier to add themselves to a list than include themselves in a category, and people have comments about where they live etc. which might be of interest.
 * For the time being anyway, I've merged the two lists.
 * Enchanter 17:22, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)

Um... there were a number of non-UK users, such as User:Lord_Emsworth, who wished to list themselves on this page because of their interest in UK-related articles. Removing the list suggests that UK-related articles should only be of interest to people who actually live in the UK, which seems inappropriate to me. func(talk) 17:32, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I half agree - there are indeed lots of people who don't live in the UK who nevertheless do take an interest in UK topics, and want to be listed as such. In fact, I'm one of them, as I live in Switzerland myself. However, for the majority of people listed, the pages were just duplicates, as there was no cross referencing between them.  For people who live outside the UK and want to be listed as being interested in UK topics, I see nothing wrong with them being listed at the Wikipedians/United_Kingdom page, with an approprate comment if they want it. Enchanter 17:59, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)

 * I also preferred the old way, for the same reason as stated above. Can we either change it back, or have thi list as a subpage of this page?  I do not believe it is duplicating any effort at all, and it is good to see how many people are hanging around looking at this page. -- Graham  ☺ | Talk 21:53, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)


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John Wetton

John Kenneth Wetton (12 June 1949 – 31 January 2017) was an English musician, singer, and songwriter. Although he was left handed, he was known as a dexterous right handed bass player and had a booming baritone voice. He joined the band Family in 1971 for a short time before joining King Crimson in 1972. After the breakup of King Crimson at the end of 1974, Wetton was in progressive rock and hard rock bands including Roxy Music (1974–1975), Uriah Heep (1975–1976), U.K. (1977–1980), and Wishbone Ash (1980–1981).

In 1981 he co-founded Asia as lead vocalist and principal songwriter, which was considered to be a super group. Their debut album "Asia" which was released in 1982 sold 10 million copies worldwide and was Billboard magazine's number one album of 1982. He later formed the duo "Icon" with his Asia bandmate and songwriting partner Geoff Downes and had a successful solo career.

Career
Wetton was born in Willington, Derbyshire and grew up in Bournemouth, Dorset, where he attended Bournemouth School. His elder brother Robert was a classical organist and choirmaster. While practising organ Robert would have John play the bass parts on a piano, since their home organ did not have a pedalboard. John recalled that during the practices, "I got to like bass lines, because Bach bass lines are incredibly interesting. So I thought, this is good, I like bass lines, that's me." Though an enthusiast of classical music since childhood, he opted to go into rock and roll instead in order to avoid being compared with his brother. He played bass and sang in a number of early bands with Richard Palmer-James, including The Corvettes, The Palmer-James Group, Tetrad, and Ginger Man. A key early band he was in was the jazzy Mogul Thrash; after live work with Renaissance, he joined Family and also was in various recording sessions.

Wetton's big break came when his fellow Dorset native Robert Fripp invited him to join King Crimson in late 1972. The incarnation of the band also included violinist David Cross, former Yes drummer Bill Bruford, and percussionist Jamie Muir. Being in the band solidified his ability as a lead singer and writer. Wetton's friend Richard Palmer-James also worked with the band as their primary lyricist. Wetton remained with the band until Fripp unexpectedly disbanded it in 1974. King Crimson maintained their interest in improvisation throughout this period, but moved away from the classical, jazz and English folk leanings of their earlier work. The period of 1972–1974 featured a more aggressive fusion/avant-rock sound, led by Wetton's thunderous, melodic bass lines–whose "roaring and crunching" sound (enhanced with effects pedals and a rotating Leslie speaker cabinet, the latter of which was traditionally used with a Hammond organ) often verged on heavy metal. Fripp once compared playing onstage with Wetton and drummer Bill Bruford to working with "a flying brick wall".

After the dissolution of King Crimson, Wetton continued to work on various projects, including a tour with Roxy Music and two albums with Uriah Heep. While still with King Crimson, Wetton had been asked by Roxy Music to "sit in" on their auditions for a replacement bass player and give his recommendations; dissatisfied with all the applicants, he offered to do the 1975 tour with the group himself so as to give them time to find a good bassist. In 1977, after failed attempts to reunite King Crimson and to create a new band with Rick Wakeman, Wetton formed U.K. with his King Crimson rhythm section partner Bill Bruford. Wetton recruited Roxy Music keyboardist/violinist Eddie Jobson; Bruford brought in innovative guitarist Allan Holdsworth from his solo group. U.K. adopted a more composition-driven approach than King Crimson, per Wetton's preference.

After the break-up of U.K., Wetton released his first solo album, Caught in the Crossfire (1980). Later in the year he had a brief stint in Wishbone Ash, appearing on their album Number the Brave (1981). In late 1981 he had a meeting with Geffen Records' president John Kalodner who took him to task for playing bass in Bryan Ferry's backing band, feeling he should be fronting a group himself. At Kalodner's insistence Wetton started writing with former Yes guitarist Steve Howe, with a view to forming their own band. Joined by keyboardist Geoff Downes, and drummer Carl Palmer (of Emerson, Lake & Palmer), the band became Asia and they produced one of the bestselling albums of the 1980s. Their self-titled debut album Asia sold over 10 million copies worldwide, making the band a household name across the globe. Wetton worked with Asia until 1983, when he was fired (at the insistence of Geffen Records) for then-unknown reasons, but at least in part due to lower-than-expected sales of the Alpha (1983) album. He returned to Asia in 1985 (with Mandy Meyer replacing Steve Howe on guitar) completing Astra (1985).

In the late 1980s, a collaboration between Wetton and Roxy Music guitarist Phil Manzanera was released as Wetton/Manzanera (1986). Around that time, Wetton began working with Downes and Palmer to restart Asia. Some of the material they recorded was featured on 1990's Then & Now CD, including a radio hit in "Days Like These".

In the 1990s Wetton focused on his solo career. In 1999, an aborted attempt to reform Asia resulted in Wetton and Carl Palmer forming a short-lived progressive group dubbed Qango with John Young and Dave Kilminster. Qango performed several shows in the UK, and recorded a live album, Live in the Hood, before disbanding. In the early 2000s, Wetton reunited with Geoff Downes for Icon. In 2006, a reunion of the original Asia line-up (Wetton, Downes, Howe, Palmer) finally occurred. A studio album titled Phoenix (2008), the original band's first since 1983's Alpha, was released in April 2008 and peaked at No. 73 on the Billboard 200 albums chart in the United States. The original line-up released two more studio albums, Omega (2010) and XXX (2012) before Howe departed in January 2013 to focus on Yes. With new guitarist Sam Coulson, Asia released Gravitas in March of 2014.

In 2013, Wetton guested on the album Grandine il vento with Renaissance, with whom he had played live 42 years before. In the same year, he toured with American Idol finalist Leslie Hunt's District 97 which was based in Chicago, to commemorate the 40th anniversary of the King Crimson album Larks' Tongues In Aspic.

Wetton worked extensively as a session musician with musicians including Brian Eno, Bryan Ferry, and Ayreon.

Death
Wetton died in his sleep from complications of colorectal cancer at the Macmillan Unit at Christchurch Hospital in Christchurch, Dorset, on 31 January 2017, at the age of 67. He was survived by his wife Lisa, son Dylan, brother Robert, and mother Margaret (Peggy).

Geoff Downes: "It is with great sadness and a heavy heart, that I have to report we have lost my dearest friend, brother, bandmate and long term musical collaborator [...] He will be remembered as one of the world’s finest musical talents, and I for one of many was wholly blessed by his influence [...] Life will not be the same without him. And words are not really enough to describe the loss I feel right now."

Billy Sherwood, who was Wetton's producer, co-songwriter, and co-performer on his 2011 solo album Raised in Captivity, replaced him in Asia. On 17 June 2017, Asia performed a special concert in Wetton's memory, titled An Extraordinary Life (full title: An Extraordinary Life - An Interactive Celebration of the Life & Music of John Wetton), in reference to the eponymous song from the Asia album Phoenix; fan-submitted performances were shown on a large video screen above the stage. Some King Crimson songs were also performed at the event.

Asteroid 72802 Wetton, discovered by Marc Buie at Kitt Peak National Observatory in Arizona in 2001, was named in his memory. The official was published by the Minor Planet Center on 18 May 2019 (M.P.C. 114955).

Influence
Artists who have cited Wetton as an influence or have expressed their admiration for him include Billy Sheehan, Juan Alderete of The Mars Volta and Racer X, Michael Sweet of Stryper, Ron Anderson, and Joseph D. Rowland of Pallbearer. After Wetton's death, Eric Clapton published a short instrumental tribute entitled, "For John W."

Band timeline

 * Mogul Thrash (1971)
 * Gordon Haskell (1971)
 * Family (1971–1972)
 * Larry Norman (1972)
 * King Crimson (1972–1974)
 * Roxy Music (1974–1975)
 * Uriah Heep (1975–1976)
 * U.K. (1977–1980, 2011–2015)
 * Jack-Knife (1979)
 * Wishbone Ash (1980)
 * Solo (1980–2017, his death)
 * Asia (1981–1983, 1984–1986, 1989–1991, 2006–2017, his death)
 * Qango (1999–2000)
 * Icon (Wetton/Downes) (2002, 2005–2009)

Live albums

 * Compilations

 * King's Road, 1972–1980 (1987) E'G/Virgin Records
 * Anthology (2001) NMC
 * ...Caught in the Crossfire... (2002) Digimode Entertainment UK. Not to be confused with Wetton's 1980 first solo album. 17 tracks from various Wetton projects including Wetton/Manzanera (1987) and Battle Lines (1994).
 * The Studio Recordings Anthology (2015)

Session Work

 * With Gordon Haskell
 * It Is and It Isn't (1971) Wetton plays organ, bass, keyboards, vocals, gut string guitar & vocal harmony.
 * With Larry Norman
 * Only Visiting This Planet (1972)
 * With Malcolm and Alwyn
 * Fool's Wisdom (1973)
 * With Peter Banks
 * Two Sides of Peter Banks (1973): plays bass on track 5 ("Knights") with album covers crediting John Whetton
 * With Brian Eno
 * Here Come the Warm Jets (September 1973): Wetton plays bass on track 3 ("Baby's on Fire") and track 5 ("Driving Me Backwards")
 * With Pete Sinfield
 * Still (1973) Also with Greg Lake, Gordon Haskell, Mel Collins, etc.
 * With Bryan Ferry
 * Another Time, Another Place (July 1974); UK No. 4
 * Let's Stick Together (September 1976); UK No. 19, US No. 160
 * In Your Mind (February 1977); UK No. 5, US No. 126, Aust No. 1
 * The Bride Stripped Bare (September 1978)
 * Live At The Royal Albert Hall 1974 (2020)
 * With Phil Manzanera
 * Diamond Head (1975)
 * K-Scope (1978)
 * Round in Circles/ Talk to Me (Singles) (Limited Edition vinyl) (2020)
 * With Duncan Mackay
 * Score (1977)
 * With Atoll
 * Rock Puzzle (1979)
 * With Roger Chapman
 * Mail Order Magic (1980)
 * Hyenas Only Laugh for Fun (1981)
 * With Phenomena
 * Did It All For Love (Single) (1987)
 * With David Cross
 * Exiles (1997)
 * With Steve Hackett
 * Genesis Revisited (1997): Wetton sings on tracks 1 and 5 and also plays bass on track 5.
 * The Tokyo Tapes (1998)
 * Genesis Revisited II (2012): Wetton sings and plays guitar and bass on track "Afterglow".
 * Genesis Revisited: Live at Hammersmith (2013): Wetton sings on track "Afterglow".
 * Genesis Revisited: Live at the Royal Albert Hall (2014): Wetton sings on track "Firth of Fifth".
 * With Martin Orford
 * Classical Music And Popular Songs (2000): lead vocals on track 2.
 * The Old Road (2008): lead vocals on tracks 4 and 8, bass guitar on tracks 4 and 6.
 * With Galahad
 * Year Zero (2002): Joint lead vocals on "Belt Up" and "Take a Deep Breath and Hold on Tight".
 * With Daniele Liverani
 * Genius A Rock Opera – Episode 1 (2002)
 * With Billy Sherwood
 * Back Against the Wall (2005): lead vocals on "Mother" and "Hey You".
 * Return to the Dark Side of the Moon (2006): lead vocals on "Us and Them".
 * With Martin Turner's Wishbone Ash
 * Argus Through The Looking Glass (2008) Mystic Records
 * With Alan Simon
 * Excalibur II: The Celtic Ring
 * Excalibur III
 * With Eddie Jobson
 * Ultimate Zero – The Best of the U-Z Project Live (2010)
 * Four Decades (2015)
 * With Ayreon
 * The Theory of Everything (2013) InsideOut Music - Rick Wakeman, Keith Emerson and Steve Hackett also play on this album.
 * With Renaissance
 * Grandine il vento (2013)

Writing

 * With David Cassidy
 * David Cassidy (1990)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: John Wetton


text:
Dorothy Height

Dorothy Irene Height (March 24, 1912 – April 20, 2010) was an African-American civil rights and women's rights activist. She focused on the issues of African-American women, including unemployment, illiteracy, and voter awareness. Height is credited as the first leader in the civil rights movement to recognize inequality for women and African Americans as problems that should be considered as a whole. She was the president of the National Council of Negro Women for 40 years. Height's role in the "Big Six" civil rights movement was frequently ignored by the press due to sexism. In 1974, she was named to the National Commission for the Protection of Human Subjects of Biomedical and Behavioral Research, which published the Belmont Report, a bioethics report in response to the infamous "Tuskegee Syphilis Study.

Early life and education
Dorothy Height was born in Richmond, Virginia, on March 24, 1912. When she was five years old, she moved with her family to Mckees Rocks Rankin, Pennsylvania, a steel town in the suburbs of Pittsburgh, where she attended racially integrated schools. Height's mother was active in the Pennsylvania Federation of Colored Women's Clubs and regularly took Dorothy along to meetings where she established her "place in the sisterhood".

Height's long association with the YWCA began in a Girl Reserve Club in Rankin organized under the auspices of the Pittsburgh YWCA. An enthusiastic participant, who was soon elected president of the club, Height was appalled to learn that her race barred her from swimming in the pool at the central YWCA branch. Though her arguments could not bring about a change in policy in 1920's Pittsburgh, Height later dedicated much of her professional energy to bringing profound change to the YWCA.

While in high school, Height became socially and politically active in anti-lynching movement. A talented orator, she won first place and a $1,000 scholarship at a national oratory contest held by the Elks. Height graduated from Rankin High School in 1929.

She was accepted to Barnard College of Columbia University in 1929, but was denied entrance because the school had an unwritten policy of admitting only two black students per year. She enrolled instead at New York University, earning an undergraduate degree in 1932 and a master's degree in educational psychology the following year. She pursued further postgraduate work at Columbia University and the New York School of Social Work (the predecessor of the Columbia University School of Social Work).

Her impact
From 1934 to 1937, Height worked in the New York City Department of Welfare, an experience she credited with teaching her the skills to deal with conflict without intensifying it. From there she moved to a job as a counselor at the YWCA of New York City, Harlem Branch, in the fall of 1937. Soon after joining the staff there, Height met Mary McLeod Bethune and Eleanor Roosevelt at a meeting of the National Council of Negro Women (NCNW) held at the YWCA. In her 2003 memoir, Height described the meeting: "On that fall day the redoubtable Mary McLeod Bethune put her hand on me. She drew me into her dazzling orbit of people in power and people in poverty…. 'The freedom gates are half ajar,' she said. 'We must pry them fully open.' I have been committed to the calling ever since." The following year, Height served as acting director of the YWCA of New York City's Emma Ransom House residence. In addition to her YWCA and NCNW work, Height was also very active in the United Christian Youth Movement, a group intensely interested in relating faith to real-world problems.

In 1939, Height went to Washington, D.C., to be executive of the Phyllis Wheatley Branch of the DC YWCA. In the fall of 1944, she returned to New York City to join the YWCA national staff, joining the program staff with "special responsibility" in the field of Interracial Relations. This work included training activities, writing, and working with the Public Affairs committee on race issues where her "insight into the attitude and feeling of both white and negro people [was] heavily counted on". It was during this period that the YWCA adopted its Interracial Charter (1946), which not only pledged to work towards an interracial experience within the YWCA, but also to fight against injustice on the basis of race, "whether in the community, the nation or the world". Convinced that segregation causes prejudice through estrangement, Height facilitated meetings, ran workshops, and wrote articles and pamphlets aimed at helping white YWCA members transcend their fears and bring their daily activities in line with the association's principles.

Height was an active member of Delta Sigma Theta sorority, throughout her life, developing leadership training programs and ecumenical education programs. She was initiated at the Rho Chapter at Columbia University, and served as national president of the sorority from 1947 to 1956. In 1950, Height moved to the Training Services department where she focused primarily on professional training for YWCA staff. She spent the fall of 1952 in India as a visiting professor at the Delhi School of Social Work, then returned to her training work in New York City. Height participated in the Liberia Watch Program and worked within the ranks of leadership in 1955.

In 1963, the increasing momentum of the civil rights movement prompted the YWCA's National Board to allocate funds to launch a country-wide "Action Program for Integration and Desegregation of Community YWCAs". Height took leave from her position as associate director for Training to head this two-year Action Program. At the end of that period, the National Board adopted a proposal to accelerate the work "in going beyond token integration and making a bold assault on all aspects of racial segregation". It established an Office of racial integration (renamed Office of Racial Justice in 1969) as part of the Executive Office. In her role as its first director, Height helped to monitor the association's progress toward full integration, kept abreast of the civil rights movement, facilitated "honest dialogue," aided the Association in making best use of its African-American leadership (both volunteer and staff), and helped in their recruitment and retention. Shortly before she retired from the YWCA in 1977, Height was elected as an honorary national board member, a lifetime appointment.

In 1958, Height became President of the National Council of Negro Women (NCNW) and remained in that position until 1990. While working with both the YWCA and NCNW, Height participated in the Civil Rights Movement and she was considered a member of the "Big Six" (a group with up to nine members, including Martin Luther King, Jr., James Farmer, John Lewis, A. Philip Randolph, Roy Wilkins, and Whitney Young). In his autobiography, civil rights leader James Farmer noted that Height's role in the "Big Six" was frequently ignored by the press due to sexism. During the Civil Rights Movement, she organized Wednesdays in Mississippi with Polly Spiegel Cowan, which brought together black and white women from the North and South to work against segregation. Height's background as a prize-winning orator allowed her to serve as an effective middleman through creating a dialogue of understanding between unfamiliar parties. Though Height was not called upon to speak at the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom, she served as one of the chief organizers for the gathering, becoming a key part in the demonstration's success. Height also acted as an ambassador for the lone women's organization during the event. Additionally, Height developed many international volunteer programs with the NCNW in Asia, Africa, Europe, and South America.

In the mid-1960s, she wrote a column called "A Woman's Word" for the weekly African-American newspaper the New York Amsterdam News.

In 1974, she was named to the National Commission for the Protection of Human Subjects of Biomedical and Behavioral Research, which published the Belmont Report a response to the infamous "Tuskegee Syphilis Study" and an international ethical touchstone for researchers to this day. Height was the driving force in the campaign to erect a statue in honor of Mary McLeod Bethune in Lincoln Park, Washington, D.C. The monument was the first statue dedicated to either a woman or an African-American person to be erected on federal land. At the July 1974 unveiling of the Mary McLeod Bethune Memorial, which had an attendance of more than eighteen thousand people, Height stated that the statue represented the awakening appreciation for the contributions of racial minorities and women within the United States, which was best represented by a Black woman.

Later life
In 1990, Height, along with 15 other African Americans, formed the African-American Women for Reproductive Freedom. Height received the Presidential Medal of Freedom from President Bill Clinton in 1994. Height's 90th-birthday celebration in 2002 raised five million dollars towards funding the NCNW's mortgage on their Washington, D.C., headquarters, the Dorothy I. Height Building. Two notable donors were Don King and Oprah Winfrey. Height was recognized by Barnard for her achievements as an honorary alumna during the college's commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the Brown v. Board of Education decision in 2004.

She was also well known for her hats and hat collection, many of them made by a Black Washington, D.C., milliner, Vanilla Beane. One of which was featured Height's USPS stamp. Portions of her hat collection have been shown in museums.

The musical stage play If This Hat Could Talk, based on her memoirs Open Wide The Freedom Gates, debuted in 2005. The work showcases her unique perspective on the civil rights movement and details many of the behind-the-scenes figures and mentors who shaped her life, including Mary McLeod Bethune and Eleanor Roosevelt. President Barack Obama called Height "the godmother of the civil rights movement and a hero to so many Americans". She attended the National Black Family Reunion on the National Mall in Washington, D.C., every year until her death in 2010. Height was the chairperson of the executive committee of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights, an umbrella group of American civil rights interest groups, until her death in 2010. She was an honored guest at the inauguration of President Barack Obama on January 20, 2009, and was seated on the stage.

Death
On March 25, 2010, Height was admitted to Howard University Hospital in Washington, D.C., for unspecified reasons and under protest, because she had pending speaking arrangements. She died less than four weeks later, on April 20, 2010, at the age of 98. President Barack Obama delivered the eulogy for her funeral service at the Washington National Cathedral on April 29, 2010, which was attended by many other dignitaries and notable people. She was later buried at Fort Lincoln Cemetery in Colmar Manor, Maryland.

Shortly after Height's death, congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton and Mayor Vincent Gray encouraged the U.S. Postal Service to name D.C.'s former main post office the Dorothy I. Height Post Office. This honor made Height the only African-American woman to have a federal facility in Washington, D.C., named after her.

Awards, honors, and medals
"I want to be remembered as someone who used herself and anything she could touch to work for justice and freedom. I want to be remembered as one who tried." – Dorothy Height
 * William L. Dawson Award, Congressional Black Caucus (1974)
 * George Collins Award, Congressional Black Caucus (1986)
 * Candace Award for Distinguished Service, National Coalition of 100 Black Women (1986)
 * Presidential Citizens Medal (1989)
 * Spingarn Medal from the NAACP (1993)
 * Franklin Delano Roosevelt Freedom From Want Award (1993)
 * inducted into the National Women's Hall of Fame (1993)
 * Presidential Medal of Freedom (1994)
 * 7th Annual Heinz Award Chairman's Medal (2001)
 * National Jefferson Award for Greatest Public Service Benefiting the Disadvantaged (2001)
 * Listed on Molefi Kete Asante's list of 100 Greatest African Americans (2002)
 * Congressional Gold Medal by President George W. Bush on behalf of the United States Congress (Approved 2003, awarded 2004)
 * One of the 34 honors on The Extra Mile Memorial in Washington, D.C. (2005)
 * 2009 Foremothers Lifetime Achievement Award from the National Center for Health Research
 * The Benning / Dorothy I. Height Neighborhood Library, which opened in April 2010, is named in her honor.
 * Upon her death, President Barack Obama ordered flags to be flown at half-mast on April 29, 2010, in her honor.
 * On May 21, 2010, a callbox was dedicated to Height. It is located on 7th Street, SW, in front of the last building in which she lived.
 * On March 24, 2014, in celebration of the 102nd anniversary of her birthday, Google featured a doodle with a portrait of Ms. Height above protestors marching with signs.
 * November 2016, honored with a 2017 United States Postage Stamp, the 40th stamp in the Black Heritage Forever series. The painting of Height is based on a 2009 photograph shot by Lateef Mangum.

title: Dorothy Height


text:
Administrative divisions of Russia in 1714–1717

This is a summary of the administrative divisions of Russia from 1714-1717.

Major events

 * January 26 (January 15 in the Julian calendar), 1714 — Nizhny Novgorod Governorate was formed on the lands in the north-west of Kazan Governorate.

Subdivisions (as of 1716)

 * Archangelgorod Governorate (Архангелогородская губерния)
 * Subdivided into 18.5 lots (доли).
 * Azov Governorate (Азовская губерния)
 * Subdivided into 7.5 lots.
 * Kazan Governorate (Казанская губерния)
 * Subdivided into lots.
 * Kiev Governorate (Киевская губерния)
 * Subdivided into 5 lots.
 * Moscow Governorate (Московская губерния)
 * Subdivided into lots.
 * Nizhny Novgorod Governorate (Нижегородская губерния)
 * Subdivided into lots.
 * Riga Governorate (Рижская губерния)
 * Subdivided into lots.
 * St. Petersburg Governorate (Санкт-Петербургская губерния)
 * Subdivided into 32.2 lots.
 * Siberian Governorate (Сибирская губерния)
 * Subdivided into 9 lots.


text:
Astrakhan Cossacks

Astrakhan Cossack Host (Russian: Астраханское казачье войско) was a Cossack host of Imperial Russia drawn from the Cossacks of the Lower Volga region, who had been patrolling the banks of the Volga River from the time of Russia's annexation of Astrakhan Khanate in 1556.

History
In 1737, the Russian government relocated a number of the Volga Cossacks to Astrakhan and formed a Cossack unit of 3 sotnyas, or 300 men, for escorting couriers and correspondence and for guard duty, which would be re-organized into the Astrakhan regiment (5 sotnyas, or 500 men) on March 28, 1750. It was settled along the right bank of the Volga River from Astrakhan to Cherniy Yar (a town in the Astrakhan Oblast). In the early 19th century, the regiment was reinforced with the Cossacks from Tsaritsyn, Kamyshin, Saratov, and also with the remnants of the Volga Cossacks, some Kalmyks and Tatars. In 1817, the Astrakhan regiment (16 sotnyas, by that time) was reorganized into a 3-regiment Astrakhan Cossack Host. In 1833, it was transferred from under the authority of the Caucasus corps to the governor (ataman) of Astrakhan. In 1872, the Astrakhan Cossack Host was divided into 2 departments and re-grouped into 1 cavalry regiment. The Astrakhan Cossack Host possessed 4 stanitsas next to Tsaritsyn, Saratov, Cherniy Yar and Krasniy Yar, 16 yurt stanitsas, 57 khutors (farms), and 808,000 desyatinas of land. One desyatina equals 2,7 acres (11,000 m2).

The Astrakhan Cossack Host took part in the Patriotic War of 1812 and Russo-Turkish Wars of the 19th century. Major General Pyotr Mikhailovich Skarzhinsky was a notable commander(1790-1792). Skarzhinsky would also serve as governor of Astrakhan. At least two mounted regiments of Astrakhan Cossacks saw active service as part of the Tsarist armies in World War I.

During the Russian Civil War, Prince Tundutov formed a small army of Astrakhan Cossacks. A significant number of participated in the Astrakhan offensive. In October–November 1919, the Whites were defeated at Astrakhan, causing the disbandment of the Astrakhan Cossack Host in 1920.

Organisation in final years
In 1916, the total number of Astrakhan Cossacks was approximately 40,000 people. In times of peace, the Astrakhan Cossack Host supplied 1 cavalry regiment (4 sotnyas) and 1 platoon of guards (local police); in times of war - 3 cavalry regiments, 1 platoon of guards, 1 battalion of infantry, 1 special and 1 reserve sotnyas (to a Host total of 2,600 men). In addition, one platoon of the Composite Cossack Regiment of the Imperial Guard was provided by the Astrakhan Host.

The Astrakhan Cossacks were unusual in that there was no single Host area. They had instead evolved into a number of separate districts, communities and farms located in clusters along the right bank of the Volga River between Astrakhan and Chenyi Yar. Although long-established, their relatively small numbers and scattered locations made the Astrakhan Cossacks one of the less significant of the Hosts, overshadowed by the neighboring Don Cossacks.

Uniform distinctions
The distinguishing colour of the Astrakhan Cossack Host was yellow; worn on the cap bands, epaulettes and wide trouser stripes of a dark blue uniform of the loose-fitting cut common to the Steppe Cossacks. Individual regiments were distinguished by numbers on the epaulettes. Lambs-wool hats (papakha) were worn on occasion with yellow cloth tops.

No spurs were worn by the Astrakhan and other cossack hosts. After 1907 a khaki-grey jacket was adopted for field uniform, worn with blue-grey breeches. The astrakhan hats and yellow trouser stripes of the peacetime uniform were however retained during World War I.

title: Astrakhan Cossacks


text:
The Nigger Bible

The Nigger Bible is a book by Robert H. deCoy, originally self-published by deCoy and then reissued by Holloway House in 1967, and again in 1972 (ISBN 0-87067-619-9). Described as a "key statement" in the Black Power movement, it is a social and linguistic analysis of the word "nigger" and of the origins and contemporary circumstances of the black peoples of America.

Analysis
The form is varied and might be described as a series of reflections. In the preface, Dick Gregory (whose autobiography was entitled Nigger) writes: "In abolishing and rejecting the Caucasian-Christian philosophical and literary forms while recording his 'Black Experiences,' this writer has removed himself from their double-standard, hypocritical frames of reference".

It attempts to tease apart the cultural, philosophical, and scriptural origins of what the author calls an "Alabaster Man", one that experienced the conclusions and prejudices at the root of their oppression. It examines, among other texts, the Christian Bible and its terminology. The book explores the power of words, and reinterprets and critiques core western religious and philosophical constructs, including those that are central to much of the modern African-American religious experience. In one of the chapters, he discusses "the genealogy of Jody Grind"; Eugene B. Redmond remarks that deCoy is one of many African-American writers who "continues a tradition by seeking out folk epics and ballads as sources of poetry".

DeCoy re-examines the word "nigger", demystifies it, and attempts to embed critical thinking skills about black personality types and categories. The author deconstructs the Christianity of "Niggers" (including, in his view, Black Muslims) as well as the values of the New Left. The book contains an analysis of the cultural and racial significance of Mardi Gras.

DeCoy also published Cold Black Preach (1971, ISBN 0-87067-627-X). The Black Scholar summarized: "Noted author of the explosive best seller The Nigger Bible takes on the black preaching establishment".

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Chapters

 * Preface by Dick Gregory
 * Foreword: The First Nigger Testament
 * Introduction of his Testament, or Bible, to "the sons and daughters of my Nigger children", pointing at a genesis: "What you are. Who you are. And my vision of how you came into Being".

 * 1) The Word Was Not for a Nigger
 * The first two chapters start in an epistolary manner; they are addressed to "My Nigger Son" and "My Dear Nigger Son". Subsequent chapters are addressed sometimes as if to one son, sometimes more broadly to children and brothers. This first chapter introduces the "Alabaster Man", whose "fault and sins" are only partly to blame for the current situation; the more general problem is that Judeo-Christian scripture excluded Africans, in that Genesis opens with the word from which they are excluded; rather, DeCoy explains, a "Scripture of Truth" starts with experience. DeCoy adds that the word "Negro" "was manufactured to describe those Niggers who would waste their existence in the hopeless void of eventually dying as Christian Caucasians" (25-26; Coward 29), and Kyle Antar Coward saw a parallel with similar comments by H. Rap Brown in his 1969 memoir Die Nigger Die! (Coward 30).
 * 1) (1) Words in Testament to My Nigger Son, (2) The First Dictionary of Nigrite Words
 * In this chapter DeCoy examines the word "nigger" (and deCoy lists over forty derivatives of the word )
 * 1) Separation is "The Nigger Salvation"
 * DeCoy rails against those who support integration and introduces the idea of a segregated "Nigger Community" within the United States in which black communities are self-governed.
 * 1) What A Nigger Needs Most is a master
 * "Black captives" need to realize that they are automatically excluded from Judeo-Christian concepts of God.
 * 1) (1) Prelude to a Nigger Genesis, (2) deCoy's Song of Genesis
 * DeCoy prepares the "Children of the Niggeristic" (53) for a scripture that accounts for the "Original Act of Copulation" (54). The subsequent Song of Genesis explains how God had sex with the virginal Earth, her buttocks in the Gulf of Mexico and her knees and thighs resting on the Appalachians and the Rocky Mountains, the "throbbing head" of his "lumbering black penis" creating the Mississippi river (56-59). Their offspring, in shades between black and white, issue forth and occupy various parts of the earth. The "original sin" is their tribalism and the ensuing conflicts between "families, tribes, clans, races, ... [and] nations"(66).
 * 1) A Sermon to My Nigger Soul: (1) The Prayer, (2) The Text
 * 2) What is this Power of Positive Thinking?
 * 3) History Does Not Happen, It is Made
 * 4) The Departure or "The Northward Flight of the Niggers"
 * 5) Proverbs and Notes to My Nigger Son
 * 6) Letters to the Nigger Children: (1) Discard the "Act of Christening," (2) Justice is a "White Woman," (3) Epistles to My Nigger Beings, (4) Niggers, God, Church and Ministry
 * A set of letters denouncing the Christian naming, which is a kind of enslavement in a religion and language that excludes blacks; relating a vision in which Lady Justice explains to the author (after he "took her") that she passes as white (163); explaining in a series of short epistles that, for instance, Black Muslims are no different from Black Christians (166-67), and that being a "Negro" is merely being in a constantly conflicting "State of Mind" whereas being a "Nigger" is an original and stable "State of Being" (169-70); urging blacks to do away with a religious "middle man" (priests, Christ, organized religion) that splits the believer from God (174-75)
 * 1) A Drama in Nigger Neurosis
 * 2) A Journey Back to the Mother City
 * 3) The Mardi Gras! (1) National Observance of the Nigger Dream, (2) Oh Come to a Mardi Gras Morning
 * 4) The Black Blueprint
 * 5) Two Parables: (1) Dream of the Alabaster Daughter, (2) Super Spade at the Pearly Gates
 * Dream: A first-person story told by a white woman to a colored nurse at a mental facility, in which she relates how she had a sexual relationship with a black servant, and then shot him when they were discovered together.
 * Pearly Gates: "Super Spade" Jackson, at the gates of Heaven following a nuclear holocaust on Earth, discusses black history with St Peter, explaining the difference between "Niggers" and "Negroes", and that God should pay no mind to a "Black Cabinet" which consists of the kind of "Negroes" (including members of the NAACP) denounced by DeCoy.
 * Biography of Robert H. DeCoy

-->

title: The Nigger Bible


text:
Saudi Arabia national football team

The Saudi Arabia national football team (SAFF) (المنتخب السُّعُودِيّ لِكُرَّةُ الْقَدَم) represents Saudi Arabia in men's international football. They are known as Al-Suqour Al-Abiyyah (Arabian Falcons) and sometimes Al-Suqour Al-Khodhur (The Green Falcons), a reference to their traditional colours of green and white, and represent both FIFA and the Asian Football Confederation (AFC).

Considered one of Asia's most successful national teams, Saudi Arabia have won the AFC Asian Cup three times (1984, 1988 and 1996), reached a joint record six Asian Cup finals and have qualified for the FIFA World Cup on seven occasions since debuting at the 1994 tournament. Saudi Arabia are the first Asian team to reach the final of a senior FIFA competition at the 1992 King Fahd Cup, which would eventually become the FIFA Confederations Cup. Only Australia and Japan managed to repeat this feat in 1997 and 2001 respectively, though Australia achieved it when they were a member of the OFC.

At the 1994 World Cup, under the leadership of Jorge Solari, Saudi Arabia beat both Belgium and Morocco in the group stage before falling to Sweden in the round of 16. Thus, they became the second Arab team in history to reach the knockout stage of a World Cup after Morocco in 1986 and 2022, and one of the few Asian national football teams (the others being Australia, Japan, South Korea and North Korea) to accomplish such a feat to date. During the 2022 World Cup, Saudi Arabia caused a large upset when they beat eventual champions Argentina 2–1, the first time Argentina lost to an Asian representative in a FIFA World Cup. However, Saudi Arabia then lost the following matches against Poland and Mexico to finish last.

In 2027, Saudi Arabia will host the AFC Asian Cup, the first time that the nation has ever hosted the Asian Cup. They will also host the 2034 FIFA World Cup.

Early history (1951–1955)
The idea of a Saudi national team first came about in 1951, when a Saudi XI team consisting of players from Al-Wehda and Al-Ahli took part in a friendly game against the Egyptian Ministry of Health on 27 June at the Al-Saban Stadium in Jeddah. The following day, the Egyptians took on a Saudi team made up of players from Al-Ittihad and Al-Hilal in Al-Bahri in the same city. On 2 August, His Royal Highness Prince Abdullah Al-Faisal organized a third friendly with the Egyptian team against Saudi Arabia with players from Al-Wehda, and Al-Ahli. By then, the idea of a national select team to represent the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia was already in full flow, and in 1953 the first-ever Saudi team traveled to play friendly matches abroad. The same year, a Saudi team traveled to Damascus to play friendly matches as part of then-Crown Prince Saud bin Abdulaziz's visit to the country in April.

In 1957, the Saudi national team took part in their first international tournament at the 2nd Pan-Arab Games in Beirut, where King Saud was invited to attend the opening ceremony and the inauguration of the Camille Chamoun Sports City Stadium with Lebanese President Camille Chamoun on 18 October. Abdulmajeed Kayal scored for the Saudis while Levon Altonian netted for the home side.

Debuting successes and subsequent declines (1956–2016)
Though their football federation was established in 1956, the Saudi Arabia national team did not participate in a tournament until they qualified for the AFC Asian Cup in 1984, becoming Asian champions for the first time. Since then, they reached the next four consecutive Asian Cup finals, winning two of them (1988 and 1996). They have qualified for every AFC Asian Cup since, reaching the final in the 2007 edition. Saudi Arabia qualified for their first FIFA World Cup in 1994 under the leadership of Argentine manager Jorge Solari and talents like Saeed Al-Owairan and Sami Al-Jaber, reinforced by national veteran Majed Abdullah as team captain. Wins against Belgium and Morocco in the group stage led to a match-up against Sweden in the round of 16, a 3–1 loss. Saudi Arabia qualified for the next three World Cups, but failed to win a match in any of them; in 1998, the team suffered an agonizing group stage elimination for the first time after only a draw was achieved, which occurred against South Africa. The team placed last in 2002 without scoring a goal, while conceding 12, including eight against Germany, the most humiliating World Cup performance ever by an Asian team since 1954, and the team did no better in 2006 after winning only a single point against Arab rival Tunisia, and also squandered a 2–1 lead in the last minutes before losing to Ukraine.

After the 2007 AFC Asian Cup, Saudi Arabia suffered even further setbacks. The Saudis failed to qualify for the 2010 FIFA World Cup in agonizing playoffs that saw them again squandered their 2–1 lead to a 2–2 draw to neighbor Bahrain. In the 2011 AFC Asian Cup, the Saudis went on to have their worst-ever Asian Cup performance in history, losing all three games in a shocking style to Syria, Jordan and Japan. Later on, Saudi Arabia failed to qualify for the 2014 FIFA World Cup, failing in the third round to Australia and Oman. This embarrassing record kept following the Saudis into the 2015 AFC Asian Cup, as the Saudis suffered another group stage exit, this time losing to China and Uzbekistan. They only won against North Korea.

Revival (2017–present)
Saudi Arabia secured qualification for the 2018 World Cup, their first in 12 years, ahead of Australia. In the opening match, Saudi Arabia were crushed by hosts Russia 5–0, making this the second largest victory of any host. Saudi Arabia then lost 1–0 to a Luis Suárez goal that put Uruguay as the eventual group winners. Although they were already eliminated, Saudi Arabia managed to salvage some pride by winning their final group stage match against Red Sea neighbours Egypt.

After the 2018 World Cup, Saudi Arabia participated in the 2019 Asian Cup, held in the United Arab Emirates; the team finished second in the group stage, after falling to Qatar in the final game, leading to a showdown against Japan in the round of 16. The Saudis dominated the whole game, but ultimately lost 1–0 due to poor finishing.

On 15 October 2019, Saudi Arabia played its first-ever game with Palestine in the West Bank; the game marked a change in policy for Saudi Arabia, which has previously played matches against the Palestinian team in third-party countries. The visit was condemned by some Palestinian activists, who considered the game as a start of normalizing the relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel, but it was viewed by the Palestinian National Authority as a support for their sovereignty over the West Bank. The game ended in a scoreless draw.

Saudi Arabia qualified for the 2022 World Cup in Qatar, the first to be held in the Middle East, by topping their qualifying group and were drawn against Argentina, Poland and Mexico. In their opening game, they defeated Argentina 2–1 within the first five minutes of second half with goals from Saleh Al-Shehri and Salem Al-Dawsari, ending an Argentine unbeaten streak of 36 games dating back to 2019. The Saudi King declared a holiday after the win and Saudi fans celebrated with mocking words against Lionel Messi and the Argentine team. They then lost their next match against Poland, 2–0. Piotr Zieliński broke Saudi hearts with a goal in the 39th minute and Robert Lewandowski scored his first World Cup goal; between these two goals also included a devastatingly missed opportunity on the penalty by the hero against Argentina, Salem Al-Dawsari as the Saudis could not capitalise from their domination. This required a win against Mexico to advance to the Round of 16 regardless of the Argentina–Poland result. Fielding three strikers in front, Saudi Arabia however were unable to exert any domination over the energetic Mexican side, conceding two devastating early second half goals by Henry Martín and Luis Chávez, the second being a thunderous midfield free kick; late consolation by Salem Al-Dawsari only salvaged some little pride left as the Saudis fell 2–1 and were eliminated at the bottom of the table to end their most impressive yet bitter World Cup performance since 1994.

Saudi Arabia, under new manager Roberto Mancini, entered the 2023 AFC Asian Cup with a sense of bitter pride from their 2022 FIFA World Cup performance, finding itself in Group F with Oman, Kyrgyzstan and Thailand. The Saudis started their campaign with a 2–1 comeback win over their rivalling neighbour Oman, where Abdulrahman Ghareeb scored from a solo before a late Ali Al-Bulaihi's header sealed the dramatic win. The Saudis completed their group with a 2–0 win over Kyrgyzstan, where the Saudis were dominant from the beginning to the end and had two men advantage but only scored by goalkeeping mistakes. The Saudis rested most of their best players as they held Thailand in a goalless draw to advance on top of the table, putting the Saudis against fellow Asian titan South Korea in the last sixteen. Against South Korea, Abdullah Radif opened the scoring at the first minute of the second half, but failed to hold the score because of a late Cho Gue-sung's header; subsequently, the game reached the penalty shootout, where the Saudis could not hold the nerve and lost 4–2 on penalties and were eliminated.

Kits and crests
Traditionally, Saudi Arabia's home kit is white with a green trim, and the away kit is green with a white trim (the Saudi flag colors). From 2023, the team had a color kit reversal where green is the home kit, and white is their away kit.

Rivalries
Saudi Arabia's main rivals are mostly from the Persian Gulf, notably Iran, Iraq, Qatar, Kuwait, and the United Arab Emirates.

Due to historical reasons, matches against Iran have been frequently followed and seen by Saudis as the most important rival. This stems from the strong hatred between Saudi Arabia and Iran, in particular in recent years due to historical enmities. Saudi Arabia has won 4 matches, drew 6 times, and lost 5 against Iran. It is one of the ten most heated rivalries with political influence.

Saudi Arabia's rivalry against Iraq began in the 1970s. Due to the Gulf War, in which Iraq invaded Saudi Arabia's ally Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Iraq eventually became bitter rivals fighting to salvage Arab pride. The two countries since then have been up-and-down in relations, often ranging from lack of cooperation to political confrontation. Iraq almost pulled out of the 21st Arabian Gulf Cup after the country was disallowed to host the competition in a move believed to be motivated by Saudi Arabia.

Venues
Historically, Saudi Arabia played most of their home matches in King Fahd Sports City, located in the capital Riyadh. The stadium was also where some of Saudi Arabia's most important fixtures were played when the country hosted the first three King Fahd Cups (the predecessor of the Confederations Cup). The stadium was also home to some of Saudi Arabia's matches in the World Cup qualifiers.

Saudi Arabia started to diversify the use of venues from outside Riyadh in the 2000s, with the 2002 World Cup qualifying first round being played in Prince Mohamed bin Fahd Stadium in Dammam and the second round being played entirely in Prince Faisal bin Fahd Stadium. In the 2006 World Cup qualifying second round against Sri Lanka and the first fixture against Uzbekistan in the third round, Saudi Arabia also played in Prince Mohamed bin Fahd Stadium.

Results and fixtures
The following is a list of match results in the last 12 months, as well as any future matches that have been scheduled.

Coaching history

 * Notes

Current squad
The following 31 players were called up for the 2026 FIFA World Cup qualification games against 🇵🇰 pakistan and 🇯🇴 jordan on 6 and 11 June 2024.

Caps and goals are correct as of 11 June 2024, after the match against 🇯🇴 jordan, as recognized by SAFF.

Recent call-ups
The following players have also been called up to the Saudi Arabia squad within the last 12 months.

 * COV Player withdrew from the squad due to contracting COVID-19.
 * INJ Player withdrew from the squad due to an injury.
 * PRE Preliminary squad.
 * RET Retired from the national team.
 * SUS Player is serving a suspension.
 * WD Player withdrew from the squad due to non-injury issue.

Player records

 * Statistics include official FIFA-recognised matches only
 * Players in bold are still active with Saudi Arabia.

Competitive record

 * *Denotes draws includes knockout matches decided on penalty shootouts. Red border indicates that the tournament was hosted on home soil. Gold, silver, bronze backgrounds indicate 1st, 2nd and 3rd finishes respectively. Bold text indicates best finish in tournament.

Champion  Runners-up   Third place

Arab Games

 * *Denotes draws and includes knockout matches decided via penalty shoot-out.

All-time results
The following table shows Saudi Arabia's all-time international record, correct as of 6 June 2024.

 * Worldfootball.net
 * FIFA.com

International

 * FIFA Confederations Cup:
 * [[File:Med 2.png]] Runner-up: (1) 1992
 * Fourth Place: (1) 1999
 * Afro-Asian Cup of Nations:
 * [[File:Med 2.png]] Runner-up: (2) 1985, 1997

Continental

 * AFC Asian Cup:
 * Coppa Asia.svg Winner (3) : 1984, 1988, 1996
 * [[File:Med 2.png]] Runner-up: (3) 1992, 2000, 2007
 * Asian Games
 * [[File:Med 2.png]] Silver Medalists: 1986
 * [[File:Med 3.png]] Bronze Medalists: 1982

Regional

 * Arabian Gulf Cup:
 * [[File:Med 1.png]] Winner: (3) 1994, 2002, 2003–04
 * [[File:Med 2.png]] Runner-up: (7) 1972, 1974, 1998, 2009, 2010, 2014, 2019
 * [[File:Med 3.png]] Third Place (8) : 1970, 1979, 1984, 1986, 1988, 1992, 1996, 2007

 * Arab Cup:
 * [[File:Med 1.png]] Winner: (2) 1998, 2002
 * [[File:Med 2.png]] Runner-up: (1) 1992
 * [[File:Med 3.png]] Third Place (1) : 1985
 * Fourth Place (1) : 2012

 * Arab Games

 * [[File:Med 2.png]] Silver Medalists: 1976
 * [[File:Med 3.png]] Bronze Medalists: 2007

Other

 * Islamic Solidarity Games
 * [[File:Med 1.png]] Gold Medalists: 2005

title: Saudi Arabia national football team


text:
Arenshausen

Arenshausen is a village in the Eichsfeld district of Thuringia, Germany.

title: Arenshausen