text:
Talk:Kontsert

Clarification
""Back In The U.S.S.R." was released as the single off this album, ending Joel's record-setting streak of 39 Billboard top-40 singles from the start of a career written by the artist who performed it."

I'm sorry, I can't understand the second part of this. Can someone please explain it to me? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.168.34.216 (talk) 07:56, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

 * I was coming here to ask the same thing. 68.46.43.198 (talk) 19:25, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

 * It's wrong, they mean ""Back In The C.C.C.P."". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.65.126.209 (talk) 11:40, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

 * I've rewritten the statement for clarity; hopefully the meaning hasn't gotten lost. It now reads: "Joel's cover of The Beatles' "Back in the U.S.S.R." became the first single released by Joel that was written by someone other than himself. It ended his record-setting streak of 39 Billboard Top 40 singles, from the start of a career, written by the artist who performed it."  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sme3 (talk • contribs) 04:01, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Renaming
I've moved this article from KOHUEPT to its technically-correct Cyrillic title of КОНЦЕРТ. I'm not entirely confident that this was the right thing to do, though; Naming conventions (use English) suggests that the correct approach would be to transliterate the Cyrillic back into the Latin alphabet, but I don't know how to do that correctly (just guessing: "Kontsert"?). Also, since the album title itself is not actually in Russian, but rather is a Cyrillic transliteration of an English word (according to the article), transliterating it back into Latin letters seems a bit peculiar. Suggestions from other editors would be appreciated. --Russ Blau (talk) 20:00, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, According to our policies the titles must be written in Latin alphabet, so I moved it. Yes, Kontsert is the correct transliteration. bogdan 10:20, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Requested move 1

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move to Kohuept. This was discussed at WP:UE (see Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(use_English)/Archive 7) and the current wording "Do not use a systematically transliterated name if there is a common English form of the name". This was to allow for special cases like Снова в СССР. It may be that the sentence "Names not originally in a Latin alphabet, as with Greek, Chinese or Russian, must be transliterated into characters generally intelligible to literate speakers of English." needs altering for cases like this, but until it is then I agree with the closure of Снова в СССР. Also even if the rules were changed I doubt if it would effect this page as a Google Search of [Концерт Billy Joel -wikipedia] [Kohuept Billy Joel -wikipedia] shows that that the latter is 10 times more common than the former and very much more common that [Kontsert  Billy Joel -wikipedia]; and just as important, it is not just blogs that use Kohuept, but reliable sources like the Rolling Stone. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 16:08, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Концерт → Kontsert — Titles should be in the Latin alphabet. —Biruitorul (talk) 23:14, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

 * If that's the correct transliteration then Support, but what about "KOHUEPT" / kohuept ? 03:31, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Support Kohuept, the form used by both Rolling Stone and All Music Guide. WP:ENGLISH says to "use the most commonly used English version of the name of the subject as the title of the article, as you would find it in verifiable reliable sources". Whydontyoucallme dantheman (talk) 19:41, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose move as current name of article is the actual name of the LP/CD by Billy Joel, as shown on the cover. Other versions should redirect to this instead. The article itself states that the proposed target name is a corruption of the album name. B.Wind (talk) 01:20, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Do review WP:UE: "Names not originally in a Latin alphabet, as with Greek, Chinese or Russian, must be transliterated into characters generally intelligible to literate speakers of English". Biruitorul Talk 03:58, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * If you wish to create a new title (which, by the way, must be supported by a citation from a reliable source per WP:V and WP:RS, consider that the proposed target is not a correct transliteration at all. In fact, the album title itself is a transliteration of the English word "concert". If you insist upon invoking WP:UE, your purported solution violates it (and other Wikipedia policies and guidelines) as well. B.Wind (talk) 05:01, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, Kohuept then. Biruitorul Talk 22:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Let me return the favor by asking you to review the remarks of the closing admin in a similar proposed move, Talk:Снова в СССР. They apply equally well here. B.Wind (talk) 05:16, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Until the next policy review, hopefully. Biruitorul Talk 22:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Deacon is simply wrong; WP:UE says: Names not originally in a Latin alphabet, as with Greek, Chinese or Russian, must be transliterated into characters generally intelligible to literate speakers of English. If Kohuept is more common, fine; if not, Kontsert seems recommended. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:56, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Support Kohuept per Dantheman. I saw the admin's remarks at Talk:Снова в СССР, but the same admin was happy to move Это не любовь... so I do not see any "precedent". Zuiver jo (talk) 20:10, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The precedent was that, like Концерт, Снова в СССР was always in English and was never recorded in Russian, whereas Это не любовь... was a Russian release. B.Wind (talk) 04:00, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

 * Support (even as ugly as it seems) per WP:UCN. Billboard album charts also used "KOHUEPT". —   AjaxSmack   03:01, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Support Move to Kohuept or KOHUEPT. Billy Joel's website seems to have given in to the "corrupt" transliteration, as well as Tower Records, in addition to other Reliable Sources, as listed above.  Evidence shows that this is the conventional way to display the title, as painful as that may be for purists.  Erudy (talk) 20:34, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Support "Kontsert" only, as correct transliteration. "Kohuept" is not only ugly and unpronounceable, as it's also got to be one of the worst cyrillic-to-latin transliterations in history. Wikipedia should not be tainted with others' gross and distasteful incompetence. Hús  ö  nd  23:44, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Support "Kohuept". It's the form used on Joel's website, and, from WP:UE - "Do not use a systematically transliterated name if there is a common English form of the name; thus, use Tchaikovsky or Chiang Kai-shek even though those are unsystematic."  Tevildo (talk) 21:43, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The title is not Faux Cyrillic. The proper Latin transliteration is Kontsyert. Georgia guy (talk) 22:55, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * This increases the strength of my opposition to an "accurate" translation, as it's apparent there isn't one single accurate transliteration. 99% of people looking for the album are going to enter "Kohuept" in the search box, and the other 1% are going to enter the Cyrillic.  "Kohuept" is the name (in Latin characters) that "the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize" (per WP:TITLE). Tevildo (talk) 07:04, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * For the people entering "Kohuept" or the cyrillic on the search box we got cheap redirects, that's not a problem. "Kontsyert" is actually more accurate than "Kontsert" as the cyrillic "E" reads "ye". Yet, often simply goes by "E". Not a problem either. Hús  ö  nd  16:48, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment: Just as with Снова в СССР, there's the issue here of a title of an English-language work that was purposely chosen to be in a foreign language and alphabet by an English-language performer. There are several options here, some of which have been described above:
 * Leave it alone. Neither Billy Joel nor Paul McCartney speaks Russian; each chose a Russian-language title for effect, to emphasize the Soviet connection. It therefore differs from a Russian-language work that would normally be translated into English, including its title, such as Dead Souls or The Seagull.
 * Transliterate it. There are several possible authorities for Russian, but the most likely would be Kontsyert or Kontsert.
 * Translate it. Концерт means "concert". Call it Concert (Billy Joel album).
 * Use one of the similar-looking-letters approaches, such as KOHUEPT or Kohuept.
 * Wikipedia doesn't have a naming policy in this instance, and that might be a better place to start. However, I would suggest that while there may be some merit to transliteration or translation, the faux-Cyrillic letters would be a poor choice for a title, not least because the album title is not pronounced "co-hoo-ept" (and "KOHUEPT" has WP:CAPS issues as well). And yes, the article would indeed have laughingstock issues for readers familiar with Russian (though the use of these letter sequences to represent the album title by such scholarly sources as Columbia House should continue to be mentioned in the lead). Pro hib it O ni o ns  (T) 20:22, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose move, leave where it is now (in Cyrillic). ProhibitOnions sums up the issue very well. This is a sui generis case, and normal Wikipedia transliteration practice doesn't straightforwardly apply to it. This is not a normal Russian title from a Russian context, it's a title that was meant to be Cyrillic-script foreign island in an otherwise English environment from the start, so the most natural thing for us to do is to keep it as just that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:43, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Rename to whatever "Rolling Stone" uses. This is not ASCII, not Latin lettered, and not English. WP:MOSTM also says not to use special typography. 70.55.85.143 (talk) 04:51, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: "Rolling Stone" uses "Kohuept" - see link above.  Just to clarify the above anon opinion. Tevildo (talk) 07:30, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Ugh. Judging by the number of articles pointing to redirects, Kontsert might be the most popular choice; nine pages link to it. Kohuept has four, KOHUEPT two, Kontsyert and Concert (Billy Joel album) one each. Again, though, I'd still suggest taking this to WP:NAME. Pro hib it O ni o ns  (T) 10:49, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Support Kohuept per our WP:Article title policy. We should note (in bold) the Cyrillic spelling as an alternative in the first sentence.  For those who argue that the title should be in Cyrillic because that's how it appears on the album itself, and thus in some way "official", please read the second paragraph of the WP:COMMONAME section of our WP:Article titles policy (and the supporting explanatory essay WP:Official names). We do not necessarily use an "official name" as our article title... instead we use whatever our sources use when discussing the topic.  That usage will be the most recognizable and natural choice (achieving two out of five of our basic title criteria). Blueboar (talk) 12:46, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:

Citations in favor of "Kohuept"
 * Borowitz, Hank. Billy Joel. 2006. p237
 * Bogdanov, Vladamir, Chris Woodstra, and Stephen Thomas Erlewine. All Music Guide to Rock. 2002. p594
 * Brackett, Nathan Christian Hoard. The New Rolling Stone Album Guide. 2006. p434.

Ridiculous new title
What a laughingstock. Just because some sources don't know what cyrillic is and won't care with its correct transliteration, we now have this aberration on what is supposed to be an accurate encyclopedia. "Kohuept" is nothing; it is not the subject of the article; it is not an English word; it is not how the subject is supposed to be read; it's not even pronounceable. How the above discussion was closed in favor of this I cannot comprehend. Hús ö  nd  22:50, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

 * Terrible, just terrible. The policy PBS points to refers to "transliteration", which this travesty is not. Pro hib it O ni o ns  (T) 22:16, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

This is an outrage! Not only does "Kohuept" not make any sense, but I see no consensus to move here. Admiral Norton (talk) 15:39, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

 * The travesty/outrage is the usage of "Kohuept" by a majority of English publications (a diagnosis I agree with). But it's not Wikipedia's job to prescribe something different just because our editors know better. —   AjaxSmack   03:19, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

 * Yes it is, check the first pillar. Hús  ö  nd  08:42, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

This should definitely be at Концерт. While the naming conventions state to use English, the spirit of the convention means to use English when there is an acceptable English title. Meaning that names of cities should use whatever we call them in English, titles of books and whatnot are to be in English when we commonly refer to them as an English title. The title of this album is purposely Cyrillic -- it's an English word rendered in the Cyrillic alphabet. Therefore, the title of the album is, in fact, English. If we want to use the Roman alphabet, this should properly be at Concert (Billy Joel album). Kohuept should be a redirect. — Music  Maker  5376  19:37, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I fail to see the above discussion as a clear non-controvesial consensus for move to 'Kohuept'. In my opinion, since the title was purposedly rendered in Russian, it should be treated like any Russian title; should either be 'Kontsert' (transliteration), 'Концерт'/'КОНЦЕРТ' (in Russian, recognizing the original intention to impose a certain artistic effect), or 'Concert (Billy Joel album)' (translation), in this particular order of reference. Constructs like 'COHUEPT' were only acceptable in a world where anything beyond English in ASCII code page was technically impossible to maintain in electronic and print media; I suppose we're well past this point. --Dmitry (talk •contibs ) 11:04, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Requested move, part 2

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was no consensus to move. Aervanath (talk) 16:07, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Kohuept → Kontsert — Pace the above requested move discussion, having this article at "Kohuept" completely misses the point. It is a basic fact that the name of the album is not Kohuept, no matter what a bunch of music databases say. The name of the album is Концерт, the Russian word for "concert", which transliterates to "Kontsert". Dmitry makes a good point that most uses of "Kohuept" probably come from a time when it was much more difficult than today to use Cyrillic characters on the Internet or on magazines.-Sceptre (talk) 18:00, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Another point to make is that I cannot think of an article where Russian words in Cyrillic have been transposed to their Latin look-a-likes. For example, Moskva is a disambiguation page, Mockba is not. Sankt-Peterburg is a redirect, Cahkt-Netepbypr is not. Rossiya is a disambugiation page, Poccnr is not. The only one that exists is a redirect: Choba b cccp to Снова в СССР. Hopefully we can fix this problem soon. Sceptre (talk) 18:00, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

 * Oppose overturning consensus. I understand the discomfort of those who know Russian, but the fact is that Kohuept, however "corrupt" it may be, is verifiably the conventional, most common name for this album in English and should therefore be our title.  Certain editors may know the "true" title, but in this case it is different from the "verifiable" title, and the First Pillar's Verifiablity Policy constrains us to what is verifiable, not true.Erudy (talk) 10:04, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * We should not use the common name of something when it is verifiably incorrect; see Naming conventions (common names). Sceptre (talk) 15:02, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 *  Weakest possible Oppose. When I become the Emperor of Wikipedia (which is only a matter of time), this article will be named Концерт, with all the correct redirects in place to ensure someone typing in "kohuept" will find the article. However, according to current policy, we must use the most common name used in English language sources, which, as has been clearly demonstrated below, is Kohuept. It's totally wrong (even the article itself describes it as a "corruption"), and looks totally ridiculous if you know any Russian, but that's how it's written in our sources. This makes it a strong case for ignoring the naming conventions—as it would clearly improve the encyclopedia to have the correct name of the album as the name of the article, and as it's the naming conventions that are preventing us from making that improvement—but that would require an overwhelming consensus in favor of Концерт. Jafeluv (talk) 12:19, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * See above: we should not use the common name of something when it is verifiably incorrect; see Naming conventions (common names). Sceptre (talk) 15:02, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm changing from "weak oppose" to "oppose", because I feel the proposed title is the worst of the three. It's not the "correct" name of the album (which is Концерт), it's not the most commonly used name in reliable sources (which is Kohuept), and it certainly isn't the name that the readers wanting to find this article are going to type in the search box. According to policy, "[t]he names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists. Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject." Jafeluv (talk) 19:38, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * In case it wasn't clear from my original wording, I would support moving to Концерт. Jafeluv (talk) 22:14, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

 * Oppose Go convince Rolling Stone they are wrong, and English usage will change, and so will we. In the meantime, follow the sources. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:21, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Need I emphasise this again? We do not use the common name of something when said common name is verifiably incorrect. Sceptre (talk) 20:17, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Make that Strongly opposed to single-purpose crusade. Sceptre can stop emphasizing a principle he made up; if this is what the album is called in English, it is no more "incorrect" than Florence. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:05, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * But its English name is not "Kohuept". The album's name on the cover is actual Cyrillic, not faux-Cyrillic. The correct English name for this album is "Kontsert", not "Kohuept", just as the Russian for Moscow is "Moskva", not "Mockba". Sceptre (talk) 23:16, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If it's an English language album by an English language artist released in English-speaking countries as Концерт, how is the correct English name anything other than Концерт? If you insist on a transliteration, that could be either Kontsert or Kontsyert or Koncert (all of which should probably be redirects, by the way). Furthermore, the Russian for Moscow is certainly not "Moskva", but "Москва". Again, "Moskva" is just one possible transliteration for the correct Russian name. Jafeluv (talk) 19:10, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I did transliterate Москва to Moskva, but you're missing my point: while Kontsert may be acceptable, Kohuept is expressly not. Sceptre (talk) 19:38, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "...Its English name is not "Kohuept"...the correct English name for this album is "Kontsert"" How do you know?  That's not what the sources noted below use.  If you were arguing for a move to "Концерт," I might agree, but "Kontsert" seems to be bordering on original research. —   AjaxSmack   15:58, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ц is not U. Р is not P. Sceptre (talk) 13:33, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I'm not sure what has changed since the last request.  I agree that Kohuept is ugly but it's what most reliable sources use (see below).  To better understand, consider how most English speakers not versed in Cyrillic or Bill Joel minutiae might say "КОНЦЕРТ."  —   AjaxSmack   02:40, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I feel like a broken record when I say this: we should not use the common name when it is verifiably inaccurate. Maybe I should put that in big 72-point letters? Sceptre (talk) 09:17, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * How is it more "verifiably inaccurate" than "Kontsert"? Sources use either "Kohuept" or "Концерт," not, for the most part "Kontsert." —   AjaxSmack   15:58, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Because the album cover betrays the apparent name of "Kohuept" by including a tail on the Ц. If it wasn't there, you'd have a case. But it is there, and the album cover is demonstratably not written in Latin. Sceptre (talk) 13:33, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Support "Kohuept" is one of the saddest applications of WP:V, and a clear case where the first pillar that says that we're an encyclopedia should overrun an utterly ridiculous mirroring of the ignorance demonstrated by so-called reliable sources on this case. Displaying "kohuept" is nothing but perpetuating the notion that "КОНЦЕРТ" cannot be read by most English speakers and therefore replacing the Cyrillic by similar Latin letters will do the trick. Honestly I can't conceive what foolishness will people think of next. The name of this subject is not meant to be read anything similar to "kohuep", and we're actually misleading readers by following others' bad example. Again, above all we're an encyclopedia, not some sloppy magazine. "Kontsert" might not be the perfect title, but at least readers will actually have the ability to read it correctly. Hús  ö  nd  18:50, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's ignorance. I think it's technical limitations. Back when the sources were compiling their Internet records, it would have been easier to do a quick Cyrillic-fauxLatin swap than accomodate for people who didn't have the character packs, or for databases who would only accept AZaz09. These days, however, you get Cyrillic, Greek, Arabic, Kanji, et cetera, out of the box. So it's easier to use those characters. Sceptre (talk) 20:31, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * No technical limitation makes a person look at "ц" and change it into a "u", only a mind limitation would. If this title happened to have other Cyrillic characters such as "Ф", "Ж" or "Щ", I wonder what they would've come up with. We're not bound by these limitations, following them just makes us the bottom of jokes. Hús  ö  nd  18:06, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Whether it originated as a technical or "mind" limitation doesn't matter. It's common usage now.  The use of "Y" for "Þ" in "Ye Olde..." began as a technical limitation but Wikipedia doesn't change the title of Ye Olde Curiosity Shop to  "The Old Curiosity Shop" or Ye Olde Cock Tavern to "The Old Cock Tavern" now because they're "incorrect." —   AjaxSmack   15:58, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ye Olde Cock Tavern is an example of deliberate misspelling, like the way faux-Cyrillic is used, to create a "medieval" feel. This album is not. I doubt Billy Joel and his producers sat down and said "We'll make up a word and put it in Cyrillic letters". They more likely said "well, this concert was performed in Russia... why not call it "Concert", but translate the title into Russian?". Occam's razor. Compare, also, Snova v SSSR, which is not at the Latin letters "Choba B CCCP" because it's a Russian phrase, "Back in the USSR", even though the International release is apparently by Raul MsSarthyech. Sceptre (talk) 23:44, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Your arguments support a move to Концерт, not Kontsert. "Snova v SSSR" is a redirect to an article called Снова в СССР — not a Wikipedia-made transliteration article title.  (Also note that, at Wikipedia, Occam's Razor is just O.R.) —   AjaxSmack   12:46, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Our policies do not exist in a vacuum from common sense. And common sense tells us the title is in Russian (see Концерт, which links to Concert (disambiguation)), rather than being a non-existent English word. And really, any title is fine as long as it isn't "Kohuept". Kontsert, Kontsyert, Концерт, Concert, are all acceptable names for this album. Kohuept is not. Sceptre (talk) 13:33, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) Clever pun. I also think that this page should be at Концерт, and it wasn't exactly an absolutely clear consensus in my opinion when the article was moved in the first place. The transliteration rule is for names that were originally meant for Russian speakers (eg. Kitayskij Tank), in cases where there's no widely adopted translation. This album was meant for English speakers to be read as "концерт", and that's how we should write it. Most of our readers are unfamiliar with Cyrillic letters and will probably read the title as "kohuept" or similar (just as Снова в СССР will be read as Choba b CCCP) – that's why we have a transliteration, a translation and a phonetic transcription in the article. Jafeluv (talk) 13:39, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Support, or move to Концерт. (Keep redirects from Kohuept and KOHUEPT.) I see no more reason to perpetuate some old ephemeral music fan magazine's or pop music poster's typist or typesetter makeshifting when faced with a few Cyrillic letters, and the rest imitating. (Compare amateur astronomical typing makeshifts for lowercase Greek letters, such as @ for α, and u overstruck with / for η.) Anthony Appleyard (talk) 04:55, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "Kohuept" is not an amateur typing makeshift. It's used widely by a number of reliable English sources including the performer's website.  See also my point above about "Y" for "Þ" in "Ye Olde..."—   AjaxSmack   15:58, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

 * Strong support for moving to just about anything. When I came to the page today, I was shocked to see the "Faux-Latin" as the page title, then bewildered when I saw that the first line of the text itself calls this spelling corrupted — at least there's a discussion here. A common argument here seems to be what people are likely to type in the search box, but assuming that redirects from all other spellings will be kept, this would be irrelevant — they'd all find the page, no matter what they type, and they'd be redirected to the correct spelling. Now, if "Концерт" is not allowed because of some rules (don't know, I'm not a rules lawyer), and "Konts[y]ert" is not allowed because it's considered OR as was claimed, then at least change the title to "Billy Joel Album with Title in Cyrillic Letters That Wikipedia Cannot Represent" or something (and explain the issue in the body) instead of this abomination, even if it's commonly used. Last time I checked, WP was supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a popularity contest. If there's a lemma "Kohuept" or "KOHUEPT", it should say that it's common misspelling and refer to the real page, cf. nucular. 88.65.118.167 (talk) 19:18, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

 * Strong support for move to Kontsert (or other agreed-upon transliteration), translation (i.e., Concert (Billy Joel album)), or even reversion to the Russian lettering. The current spelling is demonstrably false, for reasons stated above, and worthy only of a redirect. Hardly a "single-purpose crusade." Pro hib it O ni o ns  (T) 20:29, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Evidence
A list of citations in favor of "Kohuept":
 * Billy Joel's website
 * Rolling Stone
 * Rock and Roll Hall of Fame
 * Tower Records
 * Columbia Records
 * Billboard
 * Bogdanov, Vladamir, Chris Woodstra, and Stephen Thomas Erlewine. All Music Guide to Rock. 2002. p594
 * Brackett, Nathan Christian Hoard. The New Rolling Stone Album Guide. 2006. p434.
 * Borowitz, Hank. Billy Joel. 2006. p237
 * Browne, Pat. The Guide to United States Popular Culture. 2001. p443
 * Rhapsody.com

A list of citations in favor of "KOHUEPT"
 * I should point out that no matter how many sources you give, that symbol that looks like a U is still a Tse. Sceptre (talk) 15:02, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * VH1
 * MTV
 * Amazon.com
 * Barnes and Noble
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Ridiculous new title, part 2
What a (sad) joke! I don't speak Russian, but I can tell at first sight that the letter "Ц" is not a "U" -- doesn't actually look too similar if you actually look at it for a moment. But apparently that's asking too much of Wikipedia writers (and we're talking about writers, not readers -- readers would be well served with a redirect). What a shame for a so-called "encyclopedia"! But I guess with these views I'm a commie and I should move to the Tse Tse Tse Pee ... 88.65.123.101 (talk) 21:40, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Ridiculous procedure
So the first move (from correct, or acceptable, to wrong) was made although there was no consensus, and the second move (from wrong to at least somewhat better) was rejected because there was no consensus! Very logical! And although cyrillic characters are technically possible, they're not allowed because of some rules. And a correct transliteration is also said to be forbidden by the rules, in favor of the only actually wrong alternative. If these things are really what the WP rules say (I highly doubt it, but I can't argue with TPTB), then the rules urgently need to be fixed!

For me, it's a sad day for WP. I have defended WP against criticism and even donated to WM, but I won't do this anymore in the face of such stupidity. I'll continue to use WP as an (unreliable) source of information, but every time I'll listen to this album will remind of this joke. So long and thanks for all the f***! 88.65.123.101 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:48, 14 June 2009 (UTC).

Post-closure discussion

 * Copied from User talk:Aervanath:

No consensus? Can you elaborate? Consensus isn't just an up-and-down vote. The "most commonly used name in sources = article name" argument wasn't as strong as it seemed, given that the sources are demonstratably wrong. And hell, there is a six-three split for the Russian title (as in, one oppose !voter explicitly supported the Russian title, shifting the balance in terms of raw numbers). Sceptre (talk) 18:05, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I know that these discussions are not a vote; sorry I didn't expand more at the time, here's an actual rationale:
 * Basically it came down to arguments vs. numbers. As you point out, it was 6 to 3 in favor of using the Cyrillic lettering, but none of the arguments for using the lettering overcame the multiple reliable sources provided by the opposition.  And yes, I can certainly see the point of view that the currently most common lettering is "wrong"; but our concepts of "right" and "wrong" are notoriously subjective, and as an encyclopedia we must strive to be as objective as possible.  So I found the minority arguments much more convincing and policy-based in that respect. However, the majority still had a point, so I didn't feel comfortable closing it entirely against the numbers. Thus, a finding of no consensus. Cheers, --Aervanath (talk) 18:32, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * And there's perfectly good reasons why those sources use Latin letters: it's not that they think the title is actually "Kohuept"; it's that that was the easiest way they could render it. Cyrillic support in any OS before Vista and OS X 10.5 was dodgy, and, for a store, it's easier for them to list the product in Latin look-a-like letters, e.g. compared to . But we are not an online store. We're an encyclopedia capable of redirects and capable of Cyrillic support. We should strive for accuracy, not blindly following the example of those capable of neither. Sceptre (talk) 19:10, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, neither you nor I can actually read the minds of those who made the decision to render it in Latin and not Cyrillic. To do so would amount to original research.   It was clearly demonstrated that reliable English sources use "Kohuept", Yes, some of the sources provided are online stores, but the majority were not.--Aervanath (talk) 06:03, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Also, it wouldn't be quite as ridiculous if there hadn't been first a move in the opposite direction without consensus, and now "no consensus" is cited as a reason to keep it. Well, thanks for pissing me off from WP (see my comments on the article's talk page)! 88.65.123.101 (talk) 21:58, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I am sorry you are choosing to give up on Wikipedia because of one outcome you do not agree with. If I had done that, I would have left long ago.--Aervanath (talk) 06:03, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Not only the outcome, also the arbitrary way that those in power choose to apply the (actual or fictional) rules. Why is "no consensus" a reason for one move, but not for the other? I've still seen no explanation for that. BTW: "Unfortunately, neither you nor I can actually read the minds of those who made the decision to render it in Latin and not Cyrillic." It was rendered in CYRILLIC, NOT in LATIN on the ORIGINAL CD COVER! Have you actually seen it? (There's a picture on the article page, though with bad contrast.) Or since when are magazines and other SECONDARY sources more realiable than the ORIGINAL? Contributions/88.65.126.209 (talk) 10:14, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, we've made a practice of relying on secondary sources over primary sources; see OR for the full policy. Also see WP:Official names, which, while not policy itself, is a very good description of current practice with regard to what we call an article.  English is full of corrupted versions of foreign words: I doubt you would object to my use of the word "Nazi" instead of the full version "Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei", would you?  We don't always call something by its original name, or its official name.  As for your question about no consensus being a reason for one move, but not another, I'm not sure what other move you're referring to.--Aervanath (talk) 19:11, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll ignore the Nazi shit. Apart from that, if the official WP policy is really like that, well then thanks again for warning me! You know, I've actually been so foolish to look at WP in search of correct answers in the past. Now I know that's not the goal, well, I can just do a Google search to find out which is the most popular (as opposed to correct) answer. Good we have that cleared. But you ask what other move??? Well, the first "Requested move" (to Kohuept, which was successful) right there on the same talk page. Did you actually look at the context? Also, I don't really except you can tell me why "Снова в СССР" (which was mentioned in the discussion) is allowed to stand under this name and "CHOBA B CCCP" is only a redirect, even though this would be, like, correct. Contributions/88.65.126.209 (talk) 20:30, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If you're going to impolitely dismiss my points as "shit", then please stay off my talk page. Any more posts here by you will be removed.  Goodbye.--Aervanath (talk) 07:09, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It does, however, make the album an outlier. In fact, apart from untitled/eponymous albums (which normally take the form "Untitled X album" or "X (album)", where X is the artist) or soundtracks (which sometimes take the form of "X (soundtrack)", to which X is the work the soundtrack is used in), the style guidelines for albums actually say that we should always go with the title on the cover, or an acceptable transliteration if it's not in the Latin alphabet. Sceptre (talk) 15:09, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * (outdent) Sorry, I've re-read that section of the WikiProject Albums page twice now and I don't see where it says that. Also, I note that the section ends by referring users to Naming conventions (use English), which starts out with "Use the most commonly used English version of the name of the subject as the title of the article, as you would find it in verifiable reliable sources."  It certainly seems that "Kohuept" is the most commonly used English version, regardless of what the album cover says.--Aervanath (talk) 18:35, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "If the album title uses the Latin alphabet, the article name should be at that title. Translations of titles in languages other than English should not be used as titles unless such a translation is commonly used as a title for the album in the English-speaking world." and "If the album title does not use the Latin alphabet, the article name should be the transliterated form of the title using Latin characters.". "Kohuept" is not a translation; it's a corruption. Sceptre (talk) 19:33, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, but corruptions are extremely common in English, and most of our words come from corruptions of other languages. Practically the entire language is a corruption. Also, I should not that none of the quotes you cite above refer to the title on the album cover, so nothing I've seen so far overrides WP:COMMONNAME.--Aervanath (talk) 17:18, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, but it doesn't change the fact that the album's title is written in Cyrillic. Thus, per the album naming guidelines, which supersede COMMONNAME because COMMONNAME only applies when other naming conventions don't, it should be either left as it is or transliterated. Sceptre (talk) 23:18, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, but it doesn't say specifically that the album's title is definitely what's actually written on the album. The album's title is whatever most people think it is, which in this case is clearly the corruption.--Aervanath (talk) 01:32, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * No, that's just wrong. If I got everyone to believe that the new Jonas Brothers album is called "Tits and Ass", even though it isn't, it still wouldn't be the album's title. Sceptre (talk) 01:54, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I would argue that it would be. I've posted to WP:AN to get some other eyes here.--Aervanath (talk) 01:58, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Good idea. Crossposted onto Talk:Kohuept to centralise discussion. Sceptre (talk) 17:21, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: the above was copied from User talk:Aervanath. Please comment below this line.--Aervanath (talk) 03:59, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

May I add something: While prohibitions against OR prevent us from divining the intent of the producers on our own, if we knew for sure that the Cyrillic was for decoration, I would say that Kontsert would be a sensible choice. The fact that the Cyrillic is decoration would mean that the actual name (pronounced "Kontsert") would in principle have nothing to do with how it is written down.

WRT the discussion of "Nazi" rather than its German name, I think the argument could be attacked on the grounds that "Nazi" is not intended to replace the proper noun for the said party. It is a "corruption" in the sense that it is a contraction or an abbreviation because the word is used in different contexts to the full "Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei". 118.90.89.74 (talk) 04:01, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Requested Move, part 3

 * The following discussion is closed. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Talk:Концерт → Kohuept — The only consensus in this history of the discussions on this talk page was to move to Kohuept, yet it appears to have been changed anyway. Wikipedia is not the authority on names, it merely uses citeable information found elsewhere. In this case, there are numerous citations for the English look-alike "Kohuept". It is typeable on an English keyboard, whereas "Концерт" is not (this is English Wikipedia after all), and is commonly used in English publications. WP:UE states, "Names not originally in a Latin alphabet, such as Greek, Chinese or Russian names, must be transliterated ... However if there is a common English-language form of the name, then use it, even if it is unsystematic". (Not to mention, the final character of Концерт appears as an "m" when italicized, which is even more confusing than anything else).  Me Three  ( talk to me )  20:25, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

 * Oppose: the title with the most consensus, actually, was Концерт, followed by Kohuept, and then Kontsert. Again, I must stress the difference between listing it as Kohuept for technical reasons and listing it as Kohuept for factual reasons; most of the sources and their databases pre-date widespread Cyrillic alphabet support. This is a widespread problem on Wikipedia: just taking a source's words without thinking of the reasons for saying those words. And it isn't confusing when you realise it's in Russian; and most people will refer to it as "the Russian album" or "the Russian concert" than "Kohuept" (which is awkward to pronounce). Also, "not typeable on an English keyboard" doesn't give a reason to move; all it gives is a reason to give a redirect. Also, compare Paul McCartney's Soviet album. Sceptre (talk) 12:43, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Un-italicize title?
Now that album titles are italicized by default, the title of this page looks like "Kohuepm" which is even less recognizable to English-speakers than the Cyrillic title "Концерт". May I suggest that we use "italic title=no" in the infobox to at least give English-speaking users a chance to recognize the title in Russian when they see it? --Metropolitan90 (talk) 16:41, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Back in the U.S.S.R.
I removed the following sentence relating to Joel's single release of "Back in the U.S.S.R.": It ended his record-setting streak of 39 Billboard Top 40 singles, from the start of a career, written by the artist who performed it.

There were three reasons why I removed it:
 * 1) Joel did not have a streak of 39 Billboard Top 40 singles. He had a total of 33 Billboard Top 40 singles in his entire career, five of which were released after "Back in the U.S.S.R."
 * 2) He did not have a streak of having all the singles that he wrote from the start of his career hit the top 40. As can be seen at Billy Joel discography, his previous singles "Worse Comes to Worst", "Travelin' Prayer", "Goodnight Saigon", and "Baby Grand", all of which he wrote, had missed the top 40. (There are other songs listed in his singles discography that have "—" listed as their chart position; I can't be sure that they were all released in the U.S. But during the main part of Joel's career, a song could only hit the Billboard Hot 100 if it was released as a single, so we can be sure that any song from that era with a chart position lower than 40 was released as a single but missed the top 40.)
 * 3) If he had a streak of having all his top 40 singles being songs that he wrote -- which, apparently, he did -- it wasn't ended by "Back in the U.S.S.R.", because that single didn't even hit the Hot 100, much less the top 40.

So whatever the sentence was supposed to mean, it doesn't seem to have been accurate. On the other hand, I kept the following sentence in the article, because, as far as I can tell, it is accurate: Joel's cover of The Beatles' "Back in the U.S.S.R." became the first single released by Joel that was written by someone other than himself. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 01:20, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 4

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move to Kontsert. --  tariq abjotu  06:54, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Концерт → Kohuept – The 2009 closure is in error, as there was no intermediate requested move discussion between #1 (2008) and #2 (2009) and #2 closed as no consensus, that should automatically result in the reinstatement of the closure result of #1, as the bold move wade made against an existing consensus, and the #2 move request did not end up supporting it; WP:BRD. Further, WP:UE/WP:AT, we do not use Cyrillic in article titles, they must be transliterated or translated. The existing references use "Kohuept" and "Konstert", not "Концерт". Relisted. BDD (talk) 18:07, 22 July 2013 (UTC) -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 10:59, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Survey 4

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

 * No comment In ictu oculi (talk) 12:15, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support "Kontsert", oppose "Kohuept"; blind transliteration is antithetical to naming conventions, we should go with proper transliterations per WP:RUS and WP:UE; you'll have a hard time convincing me that anyone refers to it as "Kohuept" by choice enough for that name to become "conventional" (as opposed to referring at such for technical limitations). Kontsert is a good enough transliteration of Cyrillic for MIT's student newspaper to use, after all. Sceptre (talk) 23:08, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Google shows equal results for "Kohuept" (34k) and "Kontsert" (32k), roughly 30k each. While Amazon calls it KOHUEPT, but MOS:CAPS militates against KOHUEPT. BillyJoel.com uses KOHUEPT which is the official Billy Joel website set up by Sony Music, allowing contact with Billy Joel himself, so seems like the official latin-transcribed version is "KOHUEPT" -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 01:57, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * It also charted on the Billboard album chart as "KOHUEPT". —  AjaxSmack  06:19, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

 * I am not an expert on transliteration from Cryllic alphabets into English (understatement) and I don't know which one is the best transliteration, but I do know that we need to transliterate to some Latin-script title. Red Slash 09:42, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

 * Support a return to Kohuept for procedural reasons noted in the nomination. Why should this have to be rehashed every couple of years due to undiscussed moves — let the burden fall on those seeking to change consensus.  Also support a move on the merits.  It's ugly but that's what sources commonly call it in English (see list above).  —  AjaxSmack   06:19, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

 * Oppose. If we're going to transliterate (and we should) we shouldn't do so amateurishly.  Powers T 19:37, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
 * So you want Concert (Billy Joel album) with the title properly translated? -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 02:30, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No, I said transliterated, not translated. Powers T 17:33, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Kontsert. If reliable sources use both this sovietization transliteration and the nonsense "Kohuept," I prefer the more intelligible of the two. --BDD (talk) 17:13, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Support Kontsert, a widely used, sensible, and pronounceable transliteration into the English alphabet. Dicklyon (talk) 03:28, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:

 * Comment: the UE policy directing us that we must use English didn't come into force until October 2009, as far as I can tell. Sceptre (talk) 23:00, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment I'm not using WP:UE as the basis of the rename, it's a supporting element. The basis is the fact that an existing consensus was ignored, and the subsequent no consensus should have returned to the prexisting consensus decision. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 01:47, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Talk:River of Dreams

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title: Talk:River of Dreams


text: Talk:Songs in the Attic

title: Talk:Songs in the Attic


text:
Talk:Storm Front (album)

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Removed "mimicked" accusation, which was modified from "ripped off"
Somehow an accusation that Joel "ripped off" a song from REM was changed to "mimicked" instead of just removed. Can't believe this was in here for almost 6 months.--209.105.142.222 (talk) 15:53, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Disambiguation page required?
There are so many things called by this name - including a political organisation - that I feel there should be a disambiguation page.213.127.210.95 (talk) 12:52, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
 * See Storm Front and Stormfront. -- Star cheers peaks news lost wars Talk to me

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title: Talk:Storm Front (album)


text:
Talk:The Stranger (album)

Breakthrough album
The entry for Piano Man says:

 * Piano Man, Joel's second album and his first with Columbia Records, emerged out of legal difficulties with his former label and became his breakthrough album.

The entry for The Stranger says:

 * While his four previous albums were moderately successful, this was his breakthrough album, peaking at #2 on the U.S. album charts.

I think there should be some agreement on which of these albums was his "breakthrough" album. Dsreyn 14:09, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Based on Joel's lack of success after Piano Man, I would say his breakthrough album was the Stranger, based on the hits and sales. Hurricanehink 20:26, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

 * I would agree with this. The sales statistics pretty much speak for themselves. At least four of the tracks on here still receive fairly decent amounts of radio airplay on adult contemporary stations, while the title track from "Piano Man" is the only one from that album still in rotation. --Crimson Bleeding Souls (talk) 02:40, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

 * The Stranger is now cited as Joel's "true critical and commercial breakthrough"; there seems to be agreement on this point. How do people feel about describing Piano Man's status as follows: "sometimes cited as Joel's breakthrough album"?—or something to that effect (I have not changed that article's wording yet.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by A7592 (talk • contribs) 17:00, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Contradiction
Lede says number 70 on the Rolling Stone list, body says number 67. Neither statement is sourced, can't both be true. 12.233.146.130 (talk) 01:30, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
 * This issue has been resolved. A source has been provided identifying the album's ranking as 70. I've edited this article somewhat extensively, and am now also removing the "repetition/redundant language" template. — Preceding unsigned comment added by A7592 (talk • contribs) 16:32, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Production section
This section of the article badly needs citations. Of particular concern, it contains an unsourced quotation by Joel. If this issue is resolved, I am confident the article will meet the criteria for "B-class". — Preceding unsigned comment added by A7592 (talk • contribs) 17:03, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

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The actual first single from this album
Columbia 10624 - "Movin' Out (Anthony's Song)" / "She's Always a Woman" - released a couple of weeks ahead of the album. Radio liked "Just the Way You Are" much better, so this was pulled. Both sides were later released as separate hit singles. PatConolly (talk) 02:58, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Muse for Only the Good Die Young - Virginia Davis or Virginia Callahan?
This article says " "Only the Good Die Young", which is sung from the point-of-view of a boy trying to appeal to an abstinent Catholic woman, was inspired by a girl named Virginia Davis who Joel had a crush on in high school." but just about every other source says it's a girl named Virginia Callahan - so which is it? Thrashercharged (talk) 02:32, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:The Stranger (album)


text: Category:Online databases

title: Category:Online databases


text:
Jeju United FC

Jeju United Football Club is a South Korean professional football club based in Jeju Province that competes in the K League 1, the top division in South Korea. In the past, the club has been known as the Yukong Elephants and Bucheon SK.

History
The club was founded on 17 December 1982 as Yukong Elephants, and became one of the founding members of the K League. The club was owned and financially supported by the Sunkyoung Group's subsidiary, Yukong (currently SK Group's "SK Energy"), along with Seoul, Incheon, and Gyeonggi as its franchise. Yukong Elephants won the league championship on only one occasion, in 1989.

At the end of 1995, the team moved from the Dongdaemun Stadium in Seoul to the Mokdong Stadium on the western edge of the city, as part of the K League's decentralization policy. The three clubs based in Seoul (Yukong Elephants, LG Cheetahs and Ilhwa Chunma) didn't accept this policy, so the Seoul government gave an eviction order to the three clubs. However, they guaranteed that if clubs built a football-specific stadium in Seoul, they could have a Seoul franchise and return to Seoul. As a result, the three clubs were evicted from Seoul to other cities. The Yukong Elephants moved to the city of Bucheon, a satellite city of Seoul. Mid-way through the 1997 season, the club re-branded itself as Bucheon SK.

Because the city of Bucheon lacked a stadium, they used the Mokdong Stadium in Seoul until 2000. At the start of the 2001 season, the team moved to the 35,545-capacity Bucheon Leports Complex.

In 2006, Bucheon SK announced their move to Jeju without any fore notice, and renamed as Jeju United FC. They adopted the vacant Jeju World Cup Stadium as their new home ground.

Kit suppliers

 * 1983–99: Adidas
 * 2000–01: Fila
 * 2002–03: Puma
 * 2004–08: Diadora
 * 2009–12: Astore
 * 2013–2019: Kika
 * 2020–2022: Puma
 * 2022–present: Fila

Honours

 * K League 1
 * Winners (1): 1989
 * Runners-up (5): 1984, 1994, 2000, 2010, 2017
 * K League 2
 * Winners (1): 2020
 * Korean FA Cup
 * Runners-up (1): 2004
 * Korean League Cup
 * Winners (3): 1994, 1996, 2000s
 * Runners-up (2): 1998, 1998s

Domestic record

 * Key
 * Tms. = Number of teams
 * Pos. = Position in league

AFC Champions League record
All results (home and away) list Jeju United's goal tally first.

title: Jeju United FC


text:
Oracle Grid Engine

Oracle Grid Engine, previously known as Sun Grid Engine (SGE), CODINE (Computing in Distributed Networked Environments) or GRD (Global Resource Director), was a grid computing computer cluster software system (otherwise known as a batch-queuing system), acquired as part of a purchase of Gridware, then improved and supported by Sun Microsystems and later Oracle. There have been open source versions and multiple commercial versions of this technology, initially from Sun, later from Oracle and then from Univa Corporation.

On October 22, 2013 Univa announced it acquired the intellectual property and trademarks for the Grid Engine technology and that Univa will take over support. Univa has since evolved the Grid Engine technology, e.g. improving scalability as demonstrated by a 1 million core cluster in Amazon Web Services (AWS) announced on June 24, 2018.

The original Grid Engine open-source project website closed in 2010, but versions of the technology are still available under its original Sun Industry Standards Source License (SISSL). Those projects were forked from the original project code and are known as Son of Grid Engine, Open Grid Scheduler and Univa Grid Engine.

Grid Engine is typically used on a computer farm or high-performance computing (HPC) cluster and is responsible for accepting, scheduling, dispatching, and managing the remote and distributed execution of large numbers of standalone, parallel or interactive user jobs. It also manages and schedules the allocation of distributed resources such as processors, memory, disk space, and software licenses.

Grid Engine used to be the foundation of the Sun Grid utility computing system, made available over the Internet in the United States in 2006, later becoming available in many other countries and having been an early version of a public cloud computing facility predating AWS, for instance.

History
In 2000, Sun acquired Gridware a privately owned commercial vendor of advanced computing resource management software with offices in San Jose, Calif., and Regensburg, Germany. Later that year, Sun offered a free version of Gridware for Solaris and Linux, and renamed the product Sun Grid Engine.

In 2001, Sun made the source code available, and adopted the open source development model. Ports for Mac OS X and *BSD were contributed by the non-Sun open source developers.

In 2010, after the purchase of Sun by Oracle, the Grid Engine 6.2 update 6 source code was not included with the binaries, and changes were not put back to the project's source repository. In response to this, the Grid Engine community started the Open Grid Scheduler project to continue to develop and maintain a free implementation of Grid Engine.

On January 18, 2011, it was announced that Univa had recruited several principal engineers from the former Sun Grid Engine team and that Univa would be developing their own forked version of Grid Engine. The newly announced Univa Grid Engine did include commercial support and would compete with the official version of Oracle Grid Engine.

On October 22, 2013 Univa has announced that it had acquired the intellectual property and trademarks pertaining to the Grid Engine technology and that Univa will take over support for Oracle Grid Engine customers.

In September 2020, Altair Engineering, a global technology company providing solutions in data analytics, product development, and high-performance computing (HPC) acquired Univa.

Cluster architecture
A typical Grid Engine cluster consists of a master host and one or more execution hosts. Multiple shadow masters can also be configured as hot spares, which take over the role of the master when the original master host crashes.

Support and training
Univa is providing commercial support and training for Univa Grid Engine and Oracle Grid Engine. Below is a description of some of the historic options.

Sun provided support contracts for the commercial version of Grid Engine on most UNIX platforms and Windows. Professional services, consulting, training, and support were provided by Sun Partners. Sun partners with Georgetown University to deliver Grid Engine administration classes. The Bioteam runs short SGE training workshops that are 1 or 2 days long.

Users obtained community support on the Grid Engine mailing lists. Grid Engine Workshops were held in 2002, 2003, 2007, 2009, and 2012 in Regensburg, Germany.

Other Grid Engine based products
The below contains historic information and some of the products and solutions are no longer available:

 * Sun Constellation System
 * Sun Visualization System
 * Sun Compute Cluster
 * ClusterVisionOS Distribution
 * Rocks Cluster Distribution
 * Univa's UniCluster Express
 * Univa Grid Engine
 * Some Grid Engine – active free fork of Sge with "some" further modifications, Michigan Neuroscience Institute, University of Michigan (2021).
 * Son of Grid Engine – inactive free fork of Sge with some enhancements, University of Liverpool, default Uubuntu/CentOS/RHEL gridengine package (2021).
 * BioTeam's iNquiry
 * Nimbus – uses Grid Engine as a virtual machine scheduler in a cloud computing environment

title: Oracle Grid Engine


text:
Category:Personality

Articles relating to personality, defined as the characteristic sets of behaviors, cognitions, and emotional patterns that evolve from biological and environmental factors. While there is no generally agreed upon definition of personality, most theories focus on motivation and psychological interactions with one's environment. Trait-based personality theories, such as those defined by Raymond Cattell, define personality as the traits that predict a person's behavior. On the other hand, more behaviorally-based approaches define personality through learning and habits. Nevertheless, most theories view personality as relatively stable.

title: Category:Personality


text:
Ulsan HD FC

Ulsan HD FC (울산 HD FC), formerly Ulsan Hyundai FC, is a South Korean professional football club based in Ulsan that competes in the K League 1, the top tier of South Korean football. Founded in 1983 as Hyundai Horang-i, they joined the K League in 1984. Their home ground is Ulsan Munsu Football Stadium. The club is owned by HD Hyundai Heavy Industries.

Ulsan HD have won the league title four times, most recently in 2023, and the Korean FA Cup once, in 2017. At international level, they have won the AFC Champions League twice, in 2012 and 2020.

Early years: before Ulsan (1983–1989)
Ulsan Hyundai was established on 6 December 1983 as Hyundai Horang-i, with tiger as its mascot (horangi means tiger in Korean). Their original franchise area was Incheon and Gyeonggi Province. They joined the professional K League from 1984 season. While they finished their debut season as 3rd place, the team's striker Baek Jong-chul became the K League Top Scorer, scoring 16 goals in 28 matches. They won their first professional trophy in 1986, winning the Professional Football Championship, which is the origin of Korean League Cup. From the 1987 season, the club moved their franchise from Incheon and Gyeonggi Province to Gangwon Province. In the 1988 season, they finished the season as the runners-up in the league.

Move to Ulsan and rise to power (1990–1999)
Beginning in the 1990 season, the club moved their franchise to Ulsan, where the headquarters of several branches of owner company Hyundai are located at, from Gangwon Province. Former South Korea's striker Cha Bum-kun took the managerial position in the 1991 season, leading the club to the runners-up position in the league in his debut season. However, he failed to win any trophy and was replaced by Ko Jae-wook after the 1994 season. Under Ko Jae-wook, Ulsan won their second Korean League Cup trophy in 1995, which was his debut season as Ulsan manager. Ulsan won their first ever league title in 1996, beating Suwon Samsung Bluewings 3–2 on aggregate in the championship playoffs. The club then entered a long dry-spell in terms of league trophies, although they won their third Korean League Cup trophy in 1998, beating Bucheon SK 2–1 on aggregate in the finals.

Two Kims era (2000–2013)
Failure to add a major title for years did affect the team negatively. After the exodus of key players like Kim Hyun-seok and a terrible start in the 2000, manager Ko Jae-wook resigned in the middle of the season.

Kim Jung-nam era: Gangsters of Asia (2000–2008)
Ulsan appointed Kim Jung-nam, who had formerly managed South Korea, as their next manager. They finished as runners-up in 2002 and 2003, and started to emerge as a strong force. In 2005, with the return of two key players, Yoo Sang-chul and Lee Chun-soo, they qualified for the championship playoffs. In the play-off semi-final, they beat Seongnam Ilhwa 2–1, and in the final, they beat Incheon United 6–3 on aggregate, with a hat-trick from Lee Chun-Soo in the first leg. They became the league champions for the second time in their history.

The club also went on to win the A3 Champions Cup in 2006, in which they participated as K League champions. Although they lost their first match in the competition against JEF United Ichihara Chiba 3–2, they beat Dalian Shide 4–0 and Gamba Osaka 6–0 to clinch the trophy. Lee Chun-soo became the competition's top scorer, scoring six goals in three matches. They repeated the merciless attacks in the AFC Champions League that season, beating Al-Shabab 6–0 in the first leg of the quarter-finals. These overwhelming attacks they showed in the season gave Ulsan the nickname "Gangsters of Asia".

Ulsan won the 2007 Korean League Cup, beating FC Seoul 2–1 in the final on 27 June 2007. In 2008, the team changed their official name from Ulsan Hyundai Horang-i to Ulsan Hyundai FC.

Kim Ho-kon era: Iron Mace Football (2009–2013)
Manager Kim Jung-nam stepped down after the 2008 season. Kim Ho-kon, who had managed the South Korea under-23 team that reached the quarter-finals in the 2004 Summer Olympics was appointed as Ulsan's next manager.

Kim Ho-kon did not enjoy Ulsan fans' full support for his first few seasons at the club, mainly because of his defensive tactical style and unsatisfying outcomes. The 2011 season was a dramatic changeover; Ulsan won their fifth Korean League Cup, beating Busan IPark 3–2 in the final. Ulsan also finished the season as runners-up in the K League that season. Their unique style of having many players pushing forward in counterattacks earned them the nickname "Iron mace football".

In 2012, the club won the AFC Champions League, defeating Al-Ahli 3–0 in the final on 10 November. In the run up to the final, Ulsan went on an unbeaten run throughout the twelve games of the competition, winning nine consecutive games and scoring 27 goals in the process.

League

 * K League 1
 * Champions (4): 1996, 2005, 2022, 2023
 * Runners-up (10): 1986, 1991, 1998, 2002, 2003, 2011, 2013, 2019, 2020, 2021

Cups

 * Korean FA Cup
 * Winners (1): 2017
 * Runners-up (3): 1998, 2018, 2020
 * Korean League Cup
 * Winners (5): 1986, 1995, 1998, 2007, 2011
 * Runners-up (3): 1993, 2002, 2005
 * Korean Super Cup
 * Winners (1): 2006
 * National Football Championship
 * Runners-up (2): 1989, 1999
 * Korean President's Cup
 * Runners-up (1): 1990

International

 * AFC Champions League
 * Winners (2): 2012, 2020
 * A3 Champions Cup
 * Winners (1): 2006

Domestic record

 * Key
 * Tms. = Number of teams
 * Pos. = Position in league

AFC Champions League record
All results list Ulsan's goal tally first.

title: Ulsan HD FC


text:
Joan Clos

Joan Clos i Matheu, GCIH (born 29 June 1949) is a Spanish politician who was mayor of Barcelona, Spain from September 1997 to September 2006. He took over from Pasqual Maragall in 1997. In 1999 he was elected to a four-year term, and was then re-elected in the municipal elections of 25 May 2003. In September 2006, he left Barcelona Town Hall, after nine years of office, as he was appointed Minister of Industry, Tourism and Trade by Spanish Prime Minister José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero. After a stint as the Spanish Ambassador in Turkey and Azerbaijan, in 2010 he was appointed as executive director of the United Nations Human Settlements Programme, (UN-HABITAT), and Under Secretary General of the United Nations. Joan Clos is also president of the Spanish Chapter of The International Real Estate Federation (FIABCI).

Beginnings
He graduated from the Universidad Autónoma de Barcelona (UAB) with a degree in medicine and pursued his studies in the Sant Pau Hospital of Barcelona. During the political transition he took part in anti-Franco movements for the profession and the modernization of the healthcare services. He worked in the Analysis and Healthcare Programs Centre (CAPS) with a group of doctors who defended the political transformation of the country as a means for recovering professional dignity.

Once he graduated in medicine and after having worked for some time as an anaesthetist, he decided to change his professional career and moved into epidemiology, community medicine and healthcare resources management. He studied his specialty at the University of Barcelona, in the United States and in Edinburgh (Scotland). Between 1981 and 1991 he was the chairman of the Spanish Society of Epidemiology and Healthcare Administration.

Political career
Continuing this process of involvement and dedication to healthcare management, he joined the Barcelona municipal government as director of healthcare services. In 1993 he was elected councillor on the Barcelona Council for the PSC (Catalonia Socialist Party).

Achieving efficient municipal management and “city making” have been two constant features that have marked his municipal career. He thus directed the regeneration project for the neighbourhood of Ciutat Vella, following a comprehensive plan that combined planning intervention, financial and social investment and facilities strengthening in order to open up this district to the city and to improve the quality of life for its residents. In 1999, the Royal Institute of British Architects (RIBA) awarded the City of Barcelona the Royal Gold Medal personified in the men who have driven the transformation of the city: Narcís Serra, Pasqual Maragall and Joan Clos.

As second deputy mayor with direct responsibility for organisation, economy and treasury, he started a thorough reorganisation of the economic and financial structure of the City Hall with the aim of reaching budgetary stability and, at the same time, establishing a consistent investment programme to tackle the period after the Olympic Games with new projects. His mayor’s office was enhanced by the design, preparation and holding of the first Universal Forum of Cultures, held in Barcelona during the summer 2004 and by the consequent development of the area of Besós and Diagonal Mar, a project of urban development ten times as big as the one Barcelona went through for the Olympic Games in 1992. The project 22@, a new technological neighbourhood built on the old Poblenou, together with the reorganisation of La Sagrera, are another two examples of his urbanistic activities as Mayor of Barcelona.

In September 2006, the Spanish President José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero appointed Clos as a Minister of Industry, Tourism and Trade. In July 2008, he became the Spanish Ambassador in Turkey and Azerbaijan. Since 18 October 2010, he is the executive director of the United Nations Human Settlements Programme, UN-HABITAT, and Under Secretary General of the United Nations.

In 2012 the Secretary General of the United Nations, Mr. Ban Ki-moon appointed Clos as a Secretary-General of the Habitat III Conference and to act as a focal point on behalf of the United Nations.

Awards and honours
Dr. Clos received a number of awards, including a gold medal from the Royal Institute of British Architects in 1999 for transforming Barcelona. In 2002, he won the UN-Habitat Scroll of Honour Award for encouraging global cooperation between local authorities and the United Nations.

Honours

 * PRT Order of Prince Henry - Grand Cross BAR.png Grand-Cross of the Order of Prince Henry, Portugal (25 September 2006)

Scandals
On February the 4th 2006, a local police was seriously injured during the eviction of an illegal party held in a squatted theatre owned by the Barcelona city council. The initial version of the events given by Joan Clos to the press described the policeman being hit in the head by a flower pot thrown from one of the windows of the theatre and suffering a vertebra fracture as a result. This version was later changed to fit the official version given by the police, two of whom were later found to have been tortured the detainees and to have fabricated evidence and lied in court in a different case. Five young people were condemned to up to five years in prison solely based on the second version of these events. One of the condemned, poet Patricia Heras committed suicide during prison leave. These events were later described in detail in the award-winning documentary Ciutat morta.

title: Joan Clos


text:
Jonathan Bush

Jonathan James Bush (May 6, 1931 – May 5, 2021) was an American banker. Bush was the fourth child and third son of U. S. Senator Prescott Bush and his wife Dorothy Bush. Through his brother President George H. W. Bush, he was an uncle of President George W. Bush and former Florida governor Jeb Bush. He died in Florida, hours before his 90th birthday.

Early life
Bush was born in Greenwich, Connecticut, to Prescott Sheldon Bush, a politician, and Dorothy Walker Bush. He graduated from The Hotchkiss School and Yale University, where he was a member of Skull and Bones. The fourth child in the family, he was the brother of Prescott Bush, Jr. (1922–2010), the 41st President of the United States George H. W. Bush (1924–2018), Nancy Bush Ellis (1926–2021), and William "Bucky" Bush (1938–2018). He was the uncle of the 43rd President George W. Bush. Like his brother George H. W. Bush, he was a member of Delta Kappa Epsilon fraternity at Yale.

Bush and his wife Josephine are the parents of entertainment reporter Billy Bush and health care executive Jonathan S. Bush.

Career
As of December 31, 2018, Jonathan Bush had retired from Fairfield, Bush & Co., an Investment Advisory Firm in New Haven, Connecticut.

Jonathan Bush founded J. Bush & Co., which provided discreet banking services for the Washington, D.C., embassies of foreign governments for many years. In 1997, Riggs Bank bought J. Bush & Co. and made Bush CEO & President of Riggs Investment, a firm based in New Haven, Connecticut.

In the early 1980s, Jonathan Bush helped organize investors for George W. Bush's first oil venture, Arbusto Energy, later called Bush Explorations.

During the 2000 presidential campaign, Bush was a major contributor and fundraiser to his nephew's election and was named a "Bush Pioneer" for raising more than $100,000 for the campaign.

Bush died on May 5, 2021, the day before his 90th birthday. At the time of his death, he was the last surviving child of Prescott Bush and Dorothy Walker Bush.

Controversy
On May 15, 2004, The Washington Post published an article that said, "A political Web site written by a Democratic operative drew attention yesterday to the fact that President Bush's uncle, Jonathan J. Bush, is a top executive at Riggs Bank, which this week agreed to pay a record $25 million in civil fines for violations of law intended to thwart money laundering."

The bank accounts under investigation may have been Saudi, though the article did not say so. It did, however, go on to say: "a source familiar with the multiple federal investigations of the bank's Saudi accounts and other embassy accounts say Jonathan Bush's investment advice unit has 'no relationship whatsoever' with any of the Riggs's Saudi accounts." Moreover, the newspaper quoted a spokesman for the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency as saying "any suggestion of political influence in the Riggs situation is 'preposterous.'"

In 1991, Bush was fined $30,000 in Massachusetts and several thousand dollars in Connecticut for violating registration laws governing securities sales. He was barred from securities brokerage with the general public in Massachusetts for one year.

title: Jonathan Bush


text:
Turkmenistani manat

The manat (manat; abbreviation: m; code: TMT) is the currency of Turkmenistan. The original manat was introduced on 1 November 1993, replacing the rouble at a rate of 1 manat = Rbls 500. The manat is subdivided into 100 tenge (teňňe).

Due to heavy inflation a new manat was introduced on 1 January 2009 at the rate of 5,000 old manats to 1 new manat.

Etymology
The word "manat" is derived from the Persian word munāt and the Russian word монета ("moneta") meaning "coin," both derived from Latin Monēta. It was used as the name of the Soviet currency in Turkmen (манат) and in Azerbaijani Turkish.

Coins
In 1993, coins were introduced in denominations of 1, 5, 10, 20, and 50 tenge. The 1, 5, and 10 tenge were struck in copper-plated-steel, with the higher denominations in nickel-plated-steel. This first series of coins was short lived as their metal value soon became worth more than their actual face value. After a period of high inflation, new coins of 500 and 1,000 manats were introduced in 1999. All coins of this period had to depict the incumbent president by law.

During the monetary reform of 2009, new coins of 1, 2, 5, 10, 20, and 50 tenge were issued with bimetallic 1 and 2 manats following in 2010. The 1, 2, and 5 tenge are nickel-plated steel while the 10, 20, and 50 tenge are struck in brass. Instead of depicting the current head of state the coins feature a map of Turkmenistan with the Independence Tower superimposed in front of it. All circulating coins of Turkmenistan are struck by the Royal Mint.

First manat (TMM, 1993—2009)
In 1993, manat notes were introduced in denominations of 1, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100, and 500 manats, replacing the Soviet rouble. These were followed by notes for 1,000 manats in 1995 and 5,000 and 10,000 manats in 1996. In 2005, a new series of notes was introduced in denominations of 50, 100, 500, 1,000, 5,000, and 10,000 manats. All notes, with exception of the 1 and 5 manat banknotes bear a portrait of former president Saparmurat Niyazov. All Turkmen banknotes are produced by the De La Rue printing and banknote company.

First manat (second issue)
In 2005, a new series of manat banknotes was introduced. They had originally been intended to replace the first manat at a fixed rate, with 1 equal to 1,000 of the first manat, but the revaluation was postponed and this issue was released to circulate with previous manat issues. The series of notes was introduced in denominations of 50, 100, 500, 1,000, 5,000, and 10,000 manats. Two new coins were also introduced in only two denominations, 500 and 1,000 manats. Both the first and second issue manat banknotes circulated in tandem until the issue of the redenominated issue in 2009.

Second manat
After hyperinflation significantly devalued the currency, a new manat with a fixed exchange rate was introduced, replacing the old manat on a ratio of 5,000 old manats = 1 new manat. Banknotes in this series were printed in denominations of 1, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100, and 500 manats. As part of an effort by the Turkmen government to dismantle Niyazov's extensive cult of personality and help politically disambiguate the current rule, only the highest valued banknote, 500 manats, bears a portrait of the former leader. The 500 manat note has yet to be released into circulation. The other denominations feature images of buildings in Ashgabat or technological achievements (TurkmenSat 1) and portraits of Ahmed Sanjar, Oghuz Khan, Magtymguly Pyragy and other figures in Turkmen history.

Exchange rates

 * Before Apr 2009: US$1 = 1.04 manat
 * Apr 2009 - Jan 2015: US$1 = 2.85 manats
 * Jan 2015 onwards: US$1 = 3.5 manats

A black market for exchange rate exists as cash exchanges are forbidden by law in Turkmenistan. The parallel exchange rate varied between 40–41m per U.S. dollar.

title: Turkmenistani manat


text:
Talk:Oracle Grid Engine

Differences SGE vs N1
The sentence "Sun also sells a commercial product based on SGE, also known as N1 Grid Engine (N1GE)." contains one "also" too many, I think, and I don't really understand the meaning.

The page linked to in the external links section does not contain the word N1.
 * Sun N1 Grid Engine - Official page for the commercial version

So: How does N1 relate to SGE? A little investigation on Sun's web site. I went to http://www.sun.com/software/gridware/ and searched for N1. Up came a link called "Sun N1 Grid Engine 6.1", which led back to the same page. It seems that they have stopped using the name N1, at least for this product. They have something called "Sun N1 Service Provisioning System".

I have Sun Grid Engine 6.1 update 3. When I start the tool qmon, it brings up a splash screen with the name "N1 (tm) Grid Engine". --HelgeStenstrom (talk) 08:25, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Sun N1 Grid Engine is the former name of Sun Grid Engine. "Sun Grid Engine Enterprise Edition 5.3" transitioned to "Sun N1 Grid Engine 6.0" transitioned to "Sun Grid Engine 6.1". The current version (at the time of this post) is Sun Grid Engine 6.2 update 2. Grid Engine is the name of the open source project and follows the same version numbering as Sun Grid Engine, e.g. Grid Engine 6.2u2 is the same source base as Sun Grid Engine 6.2u2. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.18.43.225 (talk) 15:51, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

 * If I understand it correctly, Sun Grid Engine was transitioned to Oracle Grid Engine and it is not open source any more. Grid Engine, however, is an open source fork of Sun Grid Engine. Is that correct? If yes, we could simplify the introductory paragraph quite a bit and remove the ference to N1GE. --Bimberbube (talk) 14:41, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Obsolete links
The links to version 6.0 and 6.1 documentation collections don't work anymore. Anyone got better links? --HelgeStenstrom (talk) 13:34, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Broken links (error 404)

 * Good Tips - several blog entries on getting started with Grid Engine

External links modified
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title: Talk:Oracle Grid Engine


text:
User talk:Dygituljunky

Welcome to my talk page. Here are some tips to help you communicate with me:
 * Please continue any conversation on the page where it was started.
 * Thus, if I have left a message on your talk page please DO NOT post a reply here. I will have your talk page on watch and will note when you have replied.
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 * Create a new heading if the original conversation is archived.
 * To initiate a new conversation on this page [ click on this link].
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Welcomes

 * Hi Dygituljunky - no welcome yet??? Well, welcome! Grutness...  wha?  08:39, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks! --Bill 06:01, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

US-struct-stubs
I've just corrected the count you made of US building and structure stubs. There are actually about 1300 of them - you only looked at the first page of the category (each plage only lists up to a total of 200 articles and subcategories, wh9ch is why the category seemed to contain only things beginning with A, B, or C!) Grutness...  wha?  08:39, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Aha, thanks for the tip. The person that edited this before me said that it was down to 5 building stubs... I thought that was probably wrong... --Bill 05:59, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Articles for deletion nomination of Hezekiah M. Washburn
I have nominated Hezekiah M. Washburn, an article that you created, for deletion. I do not think that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Articles for deletion/Hezekiah M. Washburn. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time.Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:15, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

A Knight in the Congo
Hi Dygituljunky, thanks for the note. I checked on the article, and I am pretty sure the article is much too close to the book to avoid copyright infringement. If the content were restored, all the text would still be there, however I'm afraid it would violate the copyright of the book. --TeaDrinker (talk) 04:24, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid the first version of the article is almost exactly copied from here. Sorry, it does seem to be a copyright violation. --TeaDrinker (talk) 04:09, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for checking back. I have looked into the matter further and indeed you are correct.  I apologize. The book was indeed copied from Wikipedia, not the other way around.  I have undeleted the text and re-listed the deletion which was then in process, notifying the contributors).  You are absolutely welcome to participate in the deletion discussion, and I take no position on the deletion (the issue is one of notability, so you might find it useful to check out Notability_(books)).  Hope this helps, --TeaDrinker (talk) 03:22, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

MfD nomination of User:Dygituljunky/Hezekiah M. Washburn
User:Dygituljunky/Hezekiah M. Washburn, a page which you created or substantially contributed to (or which is in your userspace), has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; you may participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Dygituljunky/Hezekiah M. Washburn and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes ( ~ ). You are free to edit the content of User:Dygituljunky/Hezekiah M. Washburn during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. Niteshift36 (talk) 04:02, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

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text:
Red velvet cake

Red velvet cake is traditionally a red, crimson, or scarlet-colored layer cake, layered with ermine icing. Traditional recipes do not use food coloring, with the red color possibly due to non-Dutched, anthocyanin-rich cocoa, and possibly due to the usage of brown sugar, formerly called red sugar.

Common ingredients include buttermilk, butter, cocoa, vinegar, and flour. Beet juice or red food coloring may be used for the color.

History
In the 20th century, "velvet" cake, a soft and velvety crumb cake, came to be served as a fancy dessert, in contrast to what had been the more common, coarser-crumbed cake. Around the turn of the 20th century, devil's food cake was introduced, which is how some believe that red velvet cake came about. The key difference between the two cakes is that devil's food cake uses chocolate and red velvet cake uses cocoa.

Adams Extract is credited with bringing the red velvet cake to kitchens across America during the Great Depression era, by being one of the first to sell red food coloring and other flavor extracts with the use of point-of-sale posters and tear-off recipe cards. When foods were rationed in the US during World War II, bakers used boiled beet juices to enhance the color of their cakes. Beet was and is used in some recipes as a filler or to retain moisture. The cake and its original recipe are well known in the United States from New York City's famous Waldorf-Astoria Hotel, which has been dubbed the confection Waldorf-Astoria cake. However, it is widely considered a Southern recipe. Traditionally, red velvet cake is iced with a French-style butter ermine icing (also called roux icing though, while containing butter and flour, it is not made from a roux), which is very light and fluffy, but time-consuming to prepare. Cream cheese frosting and buttercream frosting are variations that have increased in popularity.

Red velvet cake may also have roots in black foodways and is sometimes considered to be soul food in the South. The color red is often used in Juneteenth celebrations to symbolize bloodshed in the fight against slavery. It is also used to remember the lives of Black ancestors before emancipation, as it honors those who did not have the opportunity to taste the freedoms of today.

In general, red foods and red drinks typically consumed during Juneteenth have links to kola nuts and hibiscus, two West African foods. In the Yoruba and Kongo heritages of West Africa, things of red colors symbolize divine spiritual powers. The practice of eating red foods during Juneteenth may have originated from enslaved individuals being brought over to America from the Yoruba and Kongo cultures, who infused their culinary traditions into their food practices in America. However, red velvet cake in particular was only introduced in the 1930s when red food dye was developed. Since then, red velvet cake became part of African-American home cooking.

Nicole Taylor, a cookbook author, described red velvet cake as a staple that only came out in Atlanta during special occasions, such as Christmas, Juneteenth, and other big celebrations. The color red also symbolizes joy, which explains its use as a celebration cake today in black communities. Many experts consider the cake to have origins in 1911 when Rufus Estes, a formerly enslaved person and chef, incorporated a recipe for a sweet velvet cake in his cookbook. However, the infusion of the color red into these cakes is a more recent innovation. Therefore, there is debate over whether red velvet cake is truly considered soul food, as historians and culinary experts disagree about whether red cake in particular should be part of black food history.

In Canada, the cake was a well-known dessert in the restaurants and bakeries of the Eaton's department store chain in the 1940s and 1950s. Promoted as an exclusive Eaton's recipe, with employees who knew the recipe sworn to silence, many mistakenly believed the cake was the invention of the department store matriarch, Lady Eaton.

Since the late 20th century, red velvet cake and red velvet cupcakes have become increasingly popular in the US and many European countries, especially around Christmas and more recently (since the 2010s) Valentine's Day. A resurgence in the popularity of this cake is attributed by some to the 1989 film Steel Magnolias, which included a red velvet groom's cake made in the shape of an armadillo.

Ingredients
Ingredients vary based on the era and area of the world. James Beard's reference, American Cookery (1972), describes three red velvet cakes varying in the amounts of shortening, butter, and vegetable oil. All used red food coloring. The reaction of acidic vinegar and buttermilk tends to better reveal the red anthocyanin in cocoa and keeps the cake moist, light, and fluffy. This natural tinting may have been the source for the name "red velvet", as well as "Devil's food" and similar names for chocolate cakes. Today, chocolate often undergoes Dutch processing, which prevents the color change of the anthocyanins. A reconstruction of the original red velvet cake involves reducing or eliminating the vinegar and colorants and using a non-Dutched cocoa to provide the needed acidity and color.

Variations
In addition to the many variations of red velvet cake, there are various red velvet-flavored products, including protein powder, tea, lattes, Pop-Tarts, waffles, and alcoholic beverages. The scent is used for candles and air fresheners as well. For dietary restrictions, such as those due to allergies and ingredient sensitivity, vegan, gluten-free, and dairy-free variations are available.

title: Red velvet cake