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Talk:Wilhelmus

Inaccuracy in the Performance section
When receiving a foreign head of state or emissary, the Dutch anthem is not allowed to be played if there is no member of the Dutch Royal House present, this is virtually unique in the world as most countries play their own anthem and then play the anthem of the foreign relation.[8]

Firstly the reference link is broken so this statement goes unproven. Secondly the reason that the link is broken is simply because the article was outdated and removed by the site. In 2004 the queen wanted to claim the anthem which was later officially denied. I think the best is to just remove this phrase, but I am not a frequent Wikipedia contributor and don't want to take that decision. See http://geschiedenis.vpro.nl/artikelen/34627128/ and judge for yourself. Erniecom (talk) 17:05, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

't Sal hier haest zijn gedaen
I know that the above sentence is often translated as 'It will be soon done (=over) here'. This is probably fine if the sentence is on its own. However, it is preceded by 'Als vrome christen leven', which means 'Living as a pious christian'. The two have to be connected, since 'als vrome christen leven' is not a complete sentence in itself. You cannot translate it as 'Live as a pious christian'. So, taken the two sentence together, I arrive at the translation "Living as a pious christian, it will be soon done here", where "here" is the Netherlands. In other words: soon you will be free to serve God in the way you want. I think this translation also fits the meaning of the complete stanza much better: it is meant as a consolation of William's oppressed people. The somewhat pessimistic "it will soon be all over" doesn't seem to be a very fitting conclusion to this stanza.

Could the author who proposed the translation "It will be soon done here" reply to this?

German descend - where is the problem?
I don't know where you all see problems with the term "of German descend" ("van Duitsen bloedt"). At the time the song was written the Netherlands regarded themselves as a part of Germany: die niederen deutschen Lande (the lower German lands). The word "Dutch" comes from Deutsch, f. e. the Pennsylvania Dutch who are all of German descend. Nowadays German and Dutch are two different things, but at the time "Wilhelmus" was written both words had the same meaning: deutsch.
 * Yeah right. I'm not even going in on this rubbish.Rex 14:47, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
 * German descend??? If you don't know shit about the glorious 16th and 17th century history of the victorious Seven United Provinces, don't write about it. You look like a fool, who heard the bell, but doesn't know were the bell is hanging. I'am a Dutch historian. In the 16th century in the 17 Netherlands and in Germany the same language was spoken: "Duytsch". But it wasn't the same people. The German people didn't help the Dutch people in the uprising against the Spanish king Filip II of the house of Habsburg. That language "Duytsch" became later in the Netherlands "Diets" or "Dutch" and in Germany "Deutsch" or "German". That had nothing to do with the birthplace of William of Orange. He was only born in Germany in Nassau in Slot Dillenburg. He lived, fought and died like a Dutchman. According to his son Maurits/Maurice, his last words were "Dutch", "Duytsch" or "Diets". His 3th and 4th wife Charlotte de Bourbon and Louise de Coligny were called "Dutch" wives, and not "French" wives because they were born in France. After the bloody 30Years-War, poor and helpless Germany was seen as the backlands of the victorious and succesfull Seven United Provinces in their Golden Age. And not the other way round. And "Dutch" came no way of "Deutsch", but from the English translation of "Duytsch" meaning "Diets". Go learn some Dutch or Diets historybooks, stop quessing something like a fool and stop writing rubbish on the serious Dutch or English Wikipedia. What is the problem??? You are!!! The word "Duytsch" has allways been wrongly translated into "Duitsen". Only fools like you believe that. Have a nice day studying historybooks. GoldenAgeHolland (talk) 03:20, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

 * Whoever is right here, but you have two mistakes: 1.) You write -"Duytsch" became later in the Netherlands "Diets" or "Dutch"-, then you write - his last words were "Dutch", "Duytsch" or "Diets": If I understand your first sentence correctly, he only could have said "Duytsch" as the words "Diets" or "Dutch" weren't used back then. 2.) I doubt back then they were aware of today's situation - back then it was just used "Duytsch" to describe nowadays German and Netherlands area - if I understand both of you correctly. So because of this I'd say the solution is quite easy: You just can't really translate it, because back then it hadn't the meaning of either nowadays "German" or nowadays "Dutch" - and because of that it's impossible to say back then they meaned one of the two nowadays used words. (And before you start attacking me in the totally senseless way you did to the other people writing here I just inform you that a) I don't like such long and pathetic anthems anyway, and in continuation of (a) b) one should really be able to sing what suits him or her best instead of following what others think is the best.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.113.106.167 (talk) 07:32, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
 * P.S. If one wants to translate it as good as possible word by word the only right translation could be "German" though. But word by word translations are only required for language excercises from my point of view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.113.106.167 (talk) 07:36, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

 * One more argument for Duits as generalisation of "Nederduits" is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nederduits_Gereformeerde_Kerk. LanX --217.224.61.35 00:58, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes, nederduits (niederdeutsch, lower German). You must make a difference between the year 2007 and the 16th century. In the 16th century, the Netherlands WERE German, lower German. They have called themselves "nederduits" (lower German) until the end of the 19th century. At the time the song was written, there was no difference between the Germans and the Dutch people. The Dutch people WERE Germans.
 * And William of Nassau is not a German because he lived somewhere what now belongs to present-day Germany. Or is Immanuel Kant a Russian because he was born in present-day Russia? William of Nassau is a German because he was a German at the time he was born. He was born in a land that was already called Germany, he belonged to a people that was already known as the German people at the time of his birth. And because of that he's German. Not because of present-day borders. I don't see any problems. William of Nassau was German, and the Netherlands were too.
 * Stop quessing something. The Dutch or Duytsch people in the 16th century weren't Germans but Burgundians of the 17 Burgundian Netherlands. The Batavians in the first century BC entered Holland from the side of Germany. The Batavians were the ancient Dutch, and came under the rules of Romans, Francks and Burgundians. The 16th century Dutch spoke the Duyts language, also did the 16th century Germans. That doesn't mean the Dutch were Germans, and that doesn't mean the Germans were Dutch, they spoke only the same Duyts language. Only the Batavian ancestors of the Dutch had German blood. In England in the 5th century AD the German tribes of the Saksians and Angelians entered the land. That doesn't mean that the English are Germans. King William III of Orange lived most years of his life in Holland, but he is called a English king. Please stop quessing rubbish. The 16th century Dutch weren't Germans. GoldenAgeHolland (talk) 02:23, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The Song is about Wilhelm, not about the dutch people. When you look at his ancestors you will see that all of them came from Hessen(Germany). So he is truely of German blood. As far as I know the "idea" of a "Deutschland" started with Napoleon(more than 100 years later). Before that nobody had an intrest in forming a state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.59.26.160 (talk) 20:51, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

This resentment of Germans has been present in the Low Countries since the 16th century, but today’s resentment of Germans mostly comes from the Dutch experiences in the Second World War. What is this all about? I think this might give the idea that Dutch people really hate germans, which is not the case. There might of course be the occasionall "german joke" but this is out of perspective imo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.141.132.155 (talk) 10:15, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

There is some really poor argument over here. Really bad. First of all if you want to get technical. There is no such thing has a "German" people. Modern day Germans are made up of different tribes of Germanics. The Dutch are one of those tribes and the English are a combination of two Germanic tribes from Germany and contributions from Scandinavia. William is a German but then again so are the Dutch. So why argue? It's the 21 Century. This kind of silly nationalism is part of the past. We ALL NEED Germany. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Furious Stormrage (talk • contribs) 16:14, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

 * GoldenAgeHolland, this is your own opinion and definition. According to my research, the Dutch and the Germans actually felt like one people with a common heritage until the late 19th century. In my opinion, the current article deals perfectly with this issue, especially regarding the references. -- Orthographicus (talk) 10:03, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

 * Let us not forget Wilhelm's ORIGINAL lyrics in Old German: "Wilhelmus von Nassawe bin ich von teutschem blut, dem vaterland getrawe bleib ich bis in den todt; ein printze von Uranien bin ich frey unerfehrt, den könig von Hispanien hab ich allzeit geehrt." Therfore of German blood--PERIOD! 91.66.8.26 (talk) 20:21, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

 * Here is a map, dated 1512, of the Holy Roman Empire. It might help discussion. Martinvl (talk) 18:14, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, what happened to this discussion and why was no final decision reached? it seems like valid points were made on both sides and merely using "Dutch" seems a little bit easy or rather bordering on oversimplification/misleading. I think this point at the very least deserves a caption or remark in the lyrics. At any rate, I'd be glad if this could either be finally decided or more likely - if both points are valid - at the very least appear in the article too. Looking forward to any constructive input. Cheers.

Avichai~dewiki (talk) 20:51, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

An omission about everyday use
When singing the anthem, us dutch only sing the first and sixth stanza. While they are color-coded to reflect this (presumably), it's not mentioned explicitly anywhere in the text.Mr.WaeseL 12:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Little game with first letters of the verses
If you take the first letter of each verse, they will make the word: Willem van Nazzov This is the old-dutch name for Willem van Nassau(we)

I do not dare to write into the main article, but maybe someone else can do that? --22:36, 2006 Jun 16 (UTC)

Vroom isn't Pious
The phrase Dat ik doch vroom mag blijven is not properly translated with so that I shall remain pious

"Vroom" is indeed "pious" in modern Dutch, and it will certainly be interpreted this way by all contemporary speakers who aren't also historically inclined, but originally "vroom" meant "strong", "steadfast". See the Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal -- if you can. :-) --JRM 23:06, 2004 Oct 16 (UTC)

 * True, the normal meaning then was simply "brave".--MWAK 10:07, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes I knew that but you should note that I didn't use a translation but the English version of the lyrics ;-) Rex 13:57, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I had assumed as much ;o)--MWAK 14:42, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

1st verse 2nd line
Ben ik van duitsen bloed

Duitsen means German, anyway you put it. Everyone in the netherlands has this to criticize and motions have been filed to change this part.

John of Salisbury, etc.
The reference to John of Salisbury, supposedly for the purposes of "clarifying" the article, is an absurd irrelevance. If John of Salisbury has got anything whatsoever to do with the Wilhelmus, please enlighten us! If it's just a randomly chosen instance of a name taking the form "A of B", it is merely confusing, and such names are so common that illustrating their use by reference to another completely random one is unnecessary and almost the exact opposite of "clarification".

The precise details of orthographic variation are also beside the point, at least in the lead; but it is perhaps useful to mention (even if it is extremely obvious in the context) that "Nassov" is an orthographic variation of "Nassau", so I have done so. Vilĉjo 14:37, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

The reference to John 'of Salisbury is meant to clarify the use of Dutch 'van' to avoid confusion with anglicised forms of Dutch names such as Martin van buren or Dick van Dyke.

Maybe the orthografic question is very simple for you, but not for many others I will revert your edits untill you have provided more convincing argumtents. Sander 15:23, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

 * If we are talking about convincing arguments, your justification for the reference to John of Salisbury is feeble in the extreme. (1) For the third time of asking, why John of Salisbury? He has absolutely nothing to do with it. Including the reference at all merely invites confusion, and as such is very poor encyclopaedic style. (My first reaction to seeing the reference was to follow the link and waste a minute or two trying to figure out what connection he could possibly have with the Wilhelmus.) (2) The meaning of van is made perfectly clear in the very first paragraph (The song is about Wilhelmus van Nassouwe ("William of Nassau").) Information should not be needlessly duplicated.

 * As to the orthography, I conceded above that a mention of the orthographic equivalence between "Nassau" and "Nassov" was perhaps justifiable. But this is not an article on Dutch orthography - there's a perfectly good one already, for those who want the intimate details. (To make it easier, I will change the link to point to Dutch orthography rather than just Orthography.) The inclusion of technical material outside the subject matter of the article is (again) confusing rather than clarificatory. Vilĉjo 16:02, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Edit summary from Sander: Now you listen to me. I am not the one that is supposed to convince you.you are the one supposed to convince me your version is better.Refrain from rv-ting untill then, and mind the 3RR. I place this edit summary here in order that any interested third parties may judge for themselves the general tenor of Sander's approach to the editing process, and his attitude to other users.
 * Sander's edit, of which this was the so-called "summary", was his fourth exact revert in less than 7 hours. I might have been inclined to overlook it, had he made any attempt to engage with my points on the talk page, or even been more or less polite, but as it is ... (Well, as far as I am concerned he can have the run of this article for the next few days, as I'm not going to be online anyway.) Vilĉjo 17:34, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Rewrite
I'm going to rewrite the article in the course of this week. Just announcing. I'm thinking of a complete translation and a format close to this in terms of formatting and style and perhaps an expanded section on the German, Germanic, Dutch "problem". Rex 20:13, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought that 'Duitsen(Dietsen) bloed' means 'from the folk'. Is that correct?

 * "Duits" means "belonging to the people", but it is highly doubtful this etymology was known in the 16th century :o). Bloed is of course simply "blood". --MWAK 10:04, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

 * But it's meant in the sense of 'lineage' here Mr.WaeseL 12:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

 * We are talking about 16th century!!! It was no contradiction for a Dutchman to call himself Duits (=> Dutch). The formal independance of the Holy Empire was 1648, and their was no official great German nation state to be distinguished from with before 1871. The Holy Empire was more kind of a Commonwealth where the germanic citizens called themselves "Deutsch, Duits, Diets, Teutsch, Taytsch, ... etc." depending on the local dialect.
 * Nobody would argue about Canadians calling themselves Americans before the US were founded, Pensylvania Dutch (who speak a German dialect) call their American neighbours "Engländer", the Welsh name for England and the Finnish one for Germany are both originally meaning "Saxony".
 * The meaning of Duits or German have simply changed meanwhile. LanX --217.224.65.248 20:33, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

There are mixed theories about what exactly the author meant with "Duytschen", but it's all very complicated. Currently someone translated it as "German", I will change this soon as "Dutch" is in many respects (etymologically) closer to the original meaning.

 * Dutch is indeed etymological closer since IMHO Germany should better be called "Dutchland" in English! :)

"Duytschen" or "Duytsch/Duits" means "German in Modern Dutch", but the root (diut) means "of the (common) people". 'Given that, the meaning could be that William says that he's "one of the Dutch" (which would be in canon the lines in which he explains how he spend his noble blood for the Dutch) but the problem here is that "Duytsch" in that sense, is never really used in other documents of the time with that meaning (as that would have been Dietsch, Dutch).

 * I'm not a linguist but IMHO this root diut (or theodiscus in Latin) had this meaning in the Frankish monastries in distinction to the Latin of the clerics (8th century!!!). I doubt the meaning of "common people" was still known in 16th century. It was in the meaning of "Germanic people of the Frankish Empire, not Romance nor Slavic". Look, the protestant church has also it's origins in this period and was called Nederduits_Gereformeerde_Kerk. Why Nederduits? Where do you suppose the Upperduits to live, in the Ural mountains? The original meaning of Yankee in the 17th century is most likely a nickname for [Dutch settler in America], so better don't get confused with the meaning of "diut" in the 8th century.

Another explanation is that it means German and refers to his German heritage (as he was born in Dillenburg, now in Germany) but this is somewhat odd as Germans, being much poorer, were looked down upon by the Dutch at the time, so saying he was of German blood would not really raise his status.

 * Don't you think in war a (poor) German cousin is better than a Spanish king? (Like Prince Bernhardt and Prince Claus... ok Maxima speaks Spanish ... :) Furthermore, was Holland allready so much richer? The economic rise with the colonial trading only started! Why did they call their church "Nederduits" if they had nothing in common with Duits? Why do they have a Keysersgracht in Amsterdam, if the Kaiser lives in Vienna and speaks mainly German?

Then, there's the hypothesis that says that it means Dutch, and that he says he himself is of Dutch blood. Note that Duits, Diets and Duuts were pretty much regional variants at the time ... Well see the Dietsch article for more information.10:39, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I know this Dietsland discussion ... so what ...did you know that the full name of Yiddish is Yiddish Taytsh and Ashkenasim means German in Hebrew? We are talking about 16th century, most people of nowaday "Germany" also called themselves only occasionally "Germans", they normally were "Bavarians" or "Brandenburgians" or "Hessians" or any of the other 300 States or Statelets. They only needed "Deutsch" as distinction from Welsche (Romanic population speeking any kind of French or Italian - compare etymology of Wallonia) or Wenden (Slavic population). Or "Spaniards" like in this case. Furthermore the orthography of Standard German including how to write "Teutsh" was only fixed in the 19th century!

 * Look the crusaders were (and are still) called "Franks" by the Arabs. This doesn't mean they are all French! It depends on the context if a Canadian is American or not. Or wether a Brit considers himself European or not. Or wether Northern Ireland is British or not.

 * Please have a look at Dialect_continuum and Netherlands_%28terminology%29

 * All dialect (or regional language to be pc) speakers I know also refer to their own language as "Deutsch" and distinguish "Schriftdeutsch" ( compare Schwyzerdütsch, Plattdütsch). It's hard to believe that in the 16th century - long before the idea of nation states was born - it was handled differently in the Low Countries.

 * LanX --217.224.61.35 03:01, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Humorous adaptations
Could the original author of this paragraph explain why this should be in here? If this 'adaptation' would have been a translation of the text into modern Dutch, I could see what it adds. Since the new lyrics have nothing to do whatsoever with the original Wilhelmus, it is completely useless.

Please remove this section unless there are good reasons for keeping it. And at least, move it downward. As it is now, it comes before the real lyrics, which is very disturbing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.247.100.39 (talk • contribs)

 * If the humerous adaption section header doesn't indicate that those aren't the real lyrics sure the text will. I can't imagine people getting confused by this. The value it adds is concerning the perceived obsoleteness by some.Rex 23:29, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, let's say I was confused somewhat. I agree with the perceived obsoleteness of the original text, but I think that mentioning that fact is good enough. I don't think citing some random new words on the same tune has any added value. After all, there are more 'adaptations' of the Wilhelmus, and this 'version' doesn't have any official status. Therefore I do not see why this should be mentioned. It just unneccessary ballast. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.247.100.39 (talk • contribs)

 * I agree. The section is not really interresting because this is only one of the adaptions, which is not really relevant. Pauluzz (talk) 17:28, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't completely at random, but I understand where you're coming from. I added the "humerous adaption" and the reference to the Utrechts nieuwsblad to "prove" the statement that some consider it a bit obsolete is not just POV of mine, but actually the case. I see it as a kind of illustrating the point being made there.Rex 10:58, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I still think the section is rather useless because there is only a small amount of dutch people that think the words are too hard to understand/too old. Also, the example given isn't all that great and has a nationalistic tone. Pauluzz (talk) 17:28, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

 * I doubt how many dutch people would really like to see some song about tulips etc to be our national anthem. It's a really satirical song, which in my opinion is funny because it has all the possible stereotypes in it with which Dutch people don't really identify. There might be some resistance to the Wilhelmus, but mentioning this strange song has absolutely nothing to do with The Wilhelmus. I don't think anyone has even ever heard of it. Hence, please remove. Alvast bedankt. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.141.132.155 (talk) 10:04, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

 * Done. 129.27.142.213 (talk) 07:28, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Moved to The William
As User:Rex Germanus is very busy moving articles (mainly those covering German matters, coincidentally) to new titles he calls "English", I decided to support him with this move of this anthem to The William. This is uncontroversial, as the person in question is also called William the Silent in English Wikipedia, not Wilhelmus. Compare to the much more famous Emperor William II of Germany, who is not called Kaiser Wilhelm zwo here either. Besides, William the Silent was born in present day (and then, of course) Germany, and the lyrics also are a matter of interpretation, too.

Rex,, surely would not support Dutch nationalism.-- Matthead discuß!     O       01:59, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Naturally I reverted this edit, bordering on vandalism. Matthead, "Het Wilhelmus" is the name of the anthem, not "the william", which is a translation. I know you tried to irritate me because I interfered with your "edits" on persons of the teutonic order, (where you moved names already in English, as custom with nobility) reverting or modifying your  edits. Refrain from this kind of  actions. This time its a warning, next time I will report you to the admins.Rex 17:22, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I just want to add that I considered Rex`s antipathy against Germans respectively Germany always with a certain sence of humor but that he now starts converting German proper nouns (Eigennamen) into English is not acceptable at all. However, if he thinks that this is necessary on English Wikipedia I will from now on support him by changing eg Dutch names into English starting with Johannes Hendrik van den Broeck whose English name is - for sure - John Henry from the Broeck. I hope that no Dutch nationalist will try to revert it back to the Dutch name! Please refer also to my "Scale on Dutch Nationalism". Kind regards, (194.9.5.10 10:36, 28 February 2007 (UTC))
 * It was to be expected one of would show up soon. Dear "anonymous" IP, nobility (afap) is always translated. JH van den Broeck wasn't a noble hence his name shouldn't be translated.Rex 14:45, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
 * PS, as an "anonymous" IP, you can't change article names.Rex 14:46, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Rex, you are really a funny guy but please refrain from peronal attacks and removing RPA, thx! (194.9.5.12 14:33, 1 March 2007 (UTC))

Nederlands o Nederlands
Should this article say anything about the song Nederlands o Nederlands, sung in part to the tune of Auld Lang Syne, which I have seen several times sung at sporting events as though it were a national anthem? Does this song have any official status? Is it prefered by people who dislike the overtly Christian nature of Het Wilhelmus? Question arising: how do Dutch Muslims feel about singing Het Wilhelmus? Do they do so? Are there any suggestions of changing the words to something less aggressively Christian? Intelligent Mr Toad 10:33, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Ugh... Nederland, o, Nederland is really just a popular soccer tune, and I certainly hope (and trust) it will never make it to national hymn status. (It merely informs us that our national team is champion and that we love them.) As to the Wilhelmus being "agressively Christian" ("pious" would be a better term to describe its content), I believe this comes up every once in a while, but as far as I know there are no serious plans to replace or adapt it. Iblardi 11:50, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I understand that the lyrics are sanctified by history, strange though they seem to foreigners. I suspect there are more people in the modern Netherlands, as in most European countruies, who place their faith in their football team than in God. Perhaps someone could write Het Cruijffus. Intelligent Mr Toad 06:28, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

A one poem poet-like person?
Is that the technical term? 84.53.74.196 18:14, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

 * Uhm, I don't think so. Not surprisingly, the number of Google hits for that 'term' is zero, too. Iblardi 19:42, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Luxembourg's De Wilhelmus?
How is Het Wilhelmus different from Luxembourg's De Wilhelmus? Ahassan05 (talk) 20:23, 8 September 2008 (UTC)ahassan05

Wrong translation
In this item of the Wilhelmus, the first national anthem, the 16th century word "Duytsch" is wrongly translated. The word "Duytsche" was the language spoken both in Germany and in the 17 Netherlands (Northen and Southern Netherlands and Northern France). The Netherlands word "Duytsch" was correctly translated in the English word "Dutch". "The "Duytsch" language formed later in the Netherlands the "Diets" language, and in Germany "Duytsch" formed later the German language of "Deutsch" or "German". Therfore the word "Duytsch" is wrongly translated in 'Duitsen". "Am I of Dutch blood", must be "Ben ik van Dietsen bloed". It had nothing to do with the fact that William of Orange came from Nassau in Germany. They only spoke the same language. GoldenAgeHolland (talk) 02:40, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry but can You give a source for that! Because the lyrics speaks about Duitse Bloed (Blood), so its a question of descend, the lyrics don't speak of tongue or language. So Wilhelmus wanted to state his origin and in that time there was no national difference between the Netherlands and Germany because both didn't exist. There was only the Holy Roman Empire (with several territories), but the Duytsch/Dutch/German language with its varieties unified the people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.158.199.246 (talk) 23:09, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

 * You're right: in the 16th century there was still a common language. But precisely for this reason it is better to translate it with the same word "Duits". That might be confusing because the same word is used for the present High German standard, but there simply is no other word for that language. Diets would refer to the Dutch branch only and thus not to the old common language. Apart from that, it is not a normal term in (or for) the Dutch language anyway, but an invention by nationalistic 19th century historians!--MWAK (talk) 06:01, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

 * Aww. If I had seen your even smoother explanation before, I wouldn'T have written him the same in the first section on this discussion site. Furthermore according to the article itself the "official" version uses "Duits" instead of "Diets". So I wonder why the translation here in the article shows the unofficial wording in the translation. (At the date that I write these lines.) 82.113.106.167 (talk) 07:52, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

 * Some history lesson: Dutch, German and English (or Ango-Saxon) started to become separate languages from common West Germanic since the 5th century. Although Dutch and German are related languages, in the 16th century almost 10 centuries had past since they started to separate from a common language. Regardless of what is meant in the lyrics of the Wilhelmus, (High)duitsch/Dutch/(Neder)duytsch in terms of language names were almost as differentiated in meaning as Germanic vs German is today: related phonology of the two terms, applied to related languages, but non the less different languages. Because German is the language of the people of Germany, and Germanic is a term for  all the languages descendent from Proto-Germanic, of which German is just one of these languages and not even the oldest of them all. Even though today German-ic literarily means German-like, this literal meaning does not apply to the actual situation. Something similar applies to the naming of the Dutch and German language in the 16th century. By the way, the first language in history recorded by the name  'Dutch' (or 'þiudiskaz' or its Latinised form Theodiscus) was not Dutch or German, but English! Simply because the term means '[language) of the common people' --Watisfictie (talk) 00:21, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

 * RSes seem to give it as "Germanic":  . – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 16:04, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

"Netherlands"
What I was trying to say in the less-than-perfect summaries of my last two edits: Let's try either to keep speculation about the possible ethno-linguistic content of terms used in the Wilhelmus out of the article, or source them properly. Iblardi (talk) 22:28, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Original lyrics
The original lyrics were in Old German, later they were translated into Dutch. Wilhelm writes of "German blood", not line, and certainly not of "Dutch blood":

'"Wilhelmus von Nassawe bin ich von teutschem blut, dem vaterland getrawe bleib ich bis in den todt; ein printze von Uranien bin ich frey unerfehrt, den könig von Hispanien hab ich allzeit geehrt.

In Gottes forcht zu leben hab ich allzeit betracht, darum bin ich vertrieben, umb land, und leut gebracht; aber Gott soll mich regieren als ein gut instrument das ich mag widerkehren wol in mein regiment.

Leid euch, mein untersassen, die auffrecht sein von art, Gott wird euch nicht verlassen, all seit jhr nun beschwert; wer from begert zu leben der bitt Gott nacht und tag, das er mir krafft wöll geben, das ich euch helffen mag.

Leib und gut als zusammen habe ich nit gespart, mein brüder hoch mit name n haben euch auch verwart; Graff Adolff ist geblieben in Friesland in der schlacht, sein seel im ewigen leben erwardt den jüngsten tag.

Edel und hochgeboren, von keyserlichem stamm, ein fürst des reichs erkoren, als ein from christenman, für gottes wort geprisen hab ich frey unverzagt, als ein held sonder forchten, mein edel blut gewagt.

Mein schild und mein vertrawen bistu, o Gott mein herr, auff dich so will ich bawen, verlas mich nimmer mehr; das ich doch from mag bleiben, dir dienen zu aller stund, die tyranney vertreiben die mir mein hertz durchwund.

Von allen, die mich beschweren, und mein verfolger sein, mein Gott, wölst doch bewaren den trewen diener dein; das sie mich nit verraschen in ihrem bösen mut, jr hende nit thun waschen in mein unschüldigen blut.

Als David muste fliehen vor Saulo dem tyrann, so hab ich müssen weichen mit manchem edelman; aber Gott thet jhn erheben, erlösen aus aller not, ein königreich gegeben in Israel, sehr gros.

Noch sawr werd ich empfangen von Gott meim herren das süsz, darnach so thut verlangen mein fürstelich gemüt; das ich doch möge sterben mit ehren in dem feld, ein ewigs reich erwerben als ein getrewer heldt.

Nichts thut mich mehr erbarmen in meinem widersput, denn das man sicht verarme n' des königs landen gut; das euch die Spanier krencke n, o edel Niderland gut, wenn ich daran gedencken, mein edel hertz das blut.

Als ein printz auffgesessen mit meiner heereskrafft, wol von dem feind vermessen hab ich die schlacht verwacht; der, bey Mastrich lag vergraben, beförchtet mein gewalt, mein reuter sach man traben sehr mutig durch das feld.

So es der wil des herren auf die zeit wer gewest, het ich gern wöllen kehren von euch dis schwere tempest; aber der herr dort oben, der alle ding regiert, den man allzeit mus loben, der hat es nit begert.

Sehr christlich war getrieben mein fürstelich gemüt; standhafftig ist geblieben mein hertz in widerspüt; den herrn hab ich gebeten, aus meines hertzen grundt, das er mein sach wöll richten, mein unschuld machen kundt.

Urlaub, mein armen schaffen, die sein in grosser not, ewer hirt der sol nit schlaffen; und, seid jr nun verstrewt, zu Gott wölt euch begeben, sein heilsam wort nempt an, als fromme christen leben, sol hie bald sein gethan.

Vor Gott wil ich bekennen und seiner grossen macht, das ich zu keinen zeiten den könig hab veracht, den das ich Gott den herren, der höchsten majestet, hab müssen obedieren in der gerechtigkeit."'

By the way, Dutch is a term and a language, not a race or ancestery. The Dutch are of German (Germanic) blood, and Wilhelm, born in the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation proudly concends this fact. 91.66.8.26 (talk) 20:05, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Do you have any source for these supposed German lyrics? They sound like Dutch that is made to sound like German, not like actual German. Ucucha (talk) 21:06, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The lyrics look authentic. Remember that the vocabulary and orthography of 16th-century texts do not necessarily correspond to those of the modern standard language. In fact, the oldest datable text of the Wilhelmus seems to be a German version (not sure if this is the one) from 1573 (see Knut Kache, Wilhelm von Oranien und der Aufstand der Niederlande: Die Wahrnehmung des Freiheitskampfes gegen Spanien in der deutschen Publizistik (2009), p. 57). Iblardi (talk) 12:50, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't you expect the first letters to spell WILHELM VON... in stead of WILLEM VAN... if the text were originally written in German?? Joost 99 (talk) 16:43, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Not to speak of NASSVV. It seems obvious that this early German version is a translation. Iblardi (talk) 17:31, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I wonder why this is being discussed here... as the Dutch Wikipedia isn't even thinking about this "problem". Besides, this so called German blood is Duytschen bloet, Duytsch was the language back then, Nederduyts (and later Dutch) and German are both descended of that language. Take some history lessons and forget this discussion. Dqfn13 (talk) 18:18, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I give you some history lesson: Dutch, German and English (or Ango-Saxon) started to become separate languages from common West Germanic since the 5th century. Although Dutch and German are related languages, in the 16th century they where almost 10 centuries separated from some sort of a common language. Regardless of what is meant in the lyrics of the Wilhelmus, (High)duitsch/Dutch/(Neder)duytsch in terms of language names were almost as differentiated in meaning as Germanic vs German is today: the latter is the language of the people of Germany, the former are all the languages descendent from Proto-Germanic, of which German is just one of these languages and not even the oldest of them all. Even though today German-ic literarily means German-like, this literal meaning does not apply to the actual situation. Something similar applies to the naming of the Dutch and German languages. The first language in history recorded by the name 'Dutch' (or 'þiudiskaz' or its Latinised form Theodiscus) was not Dutch or German, but English --Watisfictie (talk) 00:06, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Favonian (talk) 11:22, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Het Wilhelmus → Wilhelmus – The Dutch definite article het is not part of the proper name that is the short title of the Dutch national anthem. Dutch "het Wilhelmus" should be translated in English as "the Wilhelmus", as is done here on the official website of the Dutch Royal House. And per WP:THE, the word "the" should then not be included in the page title. Relisted. Favonian (talk) 08:14, 12 July 2011 (UTC) --Lambiam 14:08, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Support. The article is not part of the name in Dutch, and should not be retained in English. Google Books shows that English-language sources rarely use the Dutch article. Ucucha 17:58, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Support. I agree with motivations given. -- SchreyP (messages) 20:51, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose the title of the song is Wilhelmus van Nassouwe, but it is commonly known as Het Wilhelmus and "het" is an integral part of that nickname. Google searches for "het Wilhelmus" and "the Wilhelmus" show that "the Wilhelmus" is rarely used in English. Attempting to remove foreign articles that are an integral part of a name seems both pointless and doomed to failure. Do we really want Hague, Geria, Dorado and the like? I think not. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 14:28, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
 * If the word Het is indeed an integral part of the short Dutch title, as you claim, then it should be written with a capital letter H in Dutch also when it is not the first word of a sentence. But as this search shows, that is rarely the case; Dutch texts almost always use het Wilhelmus with a lower case h. This is similar to cases like de Afsluitdijk, which, according to the logic of your argument, ought to be renamed to De Afsluitdijk. Note that Dutch nl:Den Haag, Arabic ar:الجزائر and Spanish es:Eldorado have the definite article as part of the page title also in the original language, while Dutch nl:Wilhelmus en nl:Afsluitdijk do not, and so it does not do to treat these cases as if they are the same. --Lambiam 23:50, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

 * Note: a link to this discussion has been posted on WT:WikiProject Netherlands. — Favonian (talk) 08:14, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

 * Yes and No. The argument raised by a previous editor that "het" would have an upper-case letter is false - a counter example is "Joop den Uyl", the former Dutch prime minister. If people feel that the word "het" should be removed from the title of the article, then I suggest that the title should be Wilhelmus van Nassouwe, otherwise the word "het" should be kept. Anglicisation of the title is unneccessary. Martinvl (talk) 08:41, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The comparison with this kind of prefixed Dutch surname doesn't make much sense. If someone was to compose a new version of the Wilhelmus, which somehow managed to gain official status as the Dutch anthem, then the old version would be referred to as "het oude Wilhelmus", and not as "het oude Het Wilhelmus". This shows that the grammatical role of het is that of a definite article: you cannot use a second definite article for a noun phrase that already has one. In contrast, if you want to refer to an old version of Joop den Uyl, you use "de oude Den Uyl". This shows that the grammatical role of Den in the name Den Uyl is not that of a definite article. --Lambiam 14:38, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Additionally, it is hard to see why the long title Wilhelmus van Nassouwe should be treated differently in this respect from the short title Wilhelmus. The long title is likewise commonly accompanied by the definite article and given as "het Wilhelmus van Nassouwe" in Dutch sources, even book titles. --Lambiam 18:42, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

 * Support De Dutch Wikipeida page is just called Wilhelmus, and looking further on Dutch sites, the "het" is not written with a capital, and Wilhelmus is also used without 'het' (see for instance here). Arguments by Lambiam make sense. Joost 99 (talk) 15:22, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

"Verlaat" in the sixth stanza
Is there any reason "Verlaat mij nimmermeer" is written with a capital V? I'd correct that myself, but I'm not sure if it's a mistake or written that way intentionally. - Lucidfox (talk) 08:49, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

"Religious prosecutions" in third paragraph of article
Shouldn't this be "religious persecutions"? I'm not familiar with Dutch history, so I wouldn't want to make the edit myself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.251.51.201 (talk) 10:32, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Rationale for rebellion
I'd like to ask for the word "merely" to be struck from the fourth paragraph of the preamble: Hoornes and Egmont felt sufficiently strongly about the need to resist Alba's abuses, which rivalled those of WWII, to be willing to die for their cause. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.221.18.202 (talk) 19:16, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

"Wilhelmus"
Why is a song devoted to William called "Wilhelmus"? Should it not be called "Williamus"?2601:806:4301:C100:68A6:89F9:6AA:FC80 (talk) 17:48, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Because of Anglicisation of names and Latinisation of names.--Watisfictie (talk) 11:33, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Date discrepancy
Article says "Adriaen Valerius recorded the current melody of the "Wilhelmus" in his Nederlantsche Gedenck-clanck in 1626," but the biography says he died in 1625. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 16:23, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * That is correct, it was published by his heirs posthumously, see Adrianus Valerius. - Lindert (talk) 17:51, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I see, thanks. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 19:47, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:22, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Wilhelmus in Malay.jpg

title: Talk:Wilhelmus


text:
Talk:List of spaceflight records

Lunar south pole region
The lunar south pole region is from 80S to 90S latitude. There is an entry that claims that India made the first soft landing in the region. However the latitude of the landing location is 69S. So is this claim valid? If anything, IM-1's Odysseus landed a little bit south of 80S, it would be the first to have soft landed in lunar south pole region. 69.181.229.133 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 22:15, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Earliest born female suborbital in the Age section redundant
The entry for Wally Funk's flight on NS-16 seems to be redundant (or if not that, then meaningless), since Valentina Tereshkova flew an orbital flight (Vostok 6) about six decades earlier, and was born almost two years before Wally. A suborbital flight record is only meaningful as a stepping stone, when an orbital flight of the same nature has not already been achieved. 74.83.1.69 (talk) 04:34, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Crew Transfer
Would it be justifiable to have two Crew Transfer records? The first would be between two occupied crewed spacecraft via spacewalk (Soyuz 4 and 5). The second would be using a docking tunnel between two docked crew-capable spacecraft (Apollo 9).

Apollo 9 was also the first time astronauts spent time in a crewed spacecraft not designed to enter Earth's atmosphere while not being docked to a vehicle designed to do so. AmigaClone (talk) 05:10, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Incorrect attribution of Walter Villadei to ESA
For the section "Total human spaceflight time by country" it appears that Walter Villadei's time is counted for ESA, even though he is not actually representing ESA. 213.89.117.57 (talk) 16:54, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:List of spaceflight records


text:
User talk:XXXvelvetXXX

Please don't post such things as you just did at Talk:Leicester - this is no place for such pettiness. violet/riga (t) 23:07, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hi velvet. Thanks for getting into Wikipedia. I noticed that you uploaded a photograph of John Lewis in Nottingham that you'd taken from the John Lewis website. Unless you had permission to do this, it is a copyright infringement and we can't use it. I assume you got your other photos e,.g. the Cape Town one in a similar way? Let me know so I can sort things out to avoid legal risk to wikipedia. THanks. Pcb21| Pete 16:17, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

All other photos i have uploaded on to the site i have had permission off the person i got it from. Sorry for any hassel i have caused.

Image:Cape town.jpg
Burgundavia (✈ take a flight?) 09:53, May 27, 2005 (UTC)

Image:Nottingham04.jpg
-- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:34, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:XXXvelvetXXX


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Blow Them Up With Dynamite

Blow Them Up With Dynamite
A lyric written by a kid. No relevance. User is also vandalising other pages--nixie 23:08, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Nonsense.  Could have been speedy deleted.  RickK 23:22, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)
 * Neutral. I've seen this ditty elsewhere (try googling the title). Relevance? To what?  For sure it's too insignificant for any commercial encyclopedia, but there is a lot of goofy but accepted stuff on Wiki.Sfahey 20:31, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Weak delete, seems to be a very minor topic with no potential to become encyclopedic, but I may be wrong so tell me if i am — siro  χ  o  06:09, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)


text:
Southeast Financial Center

Southeast Financial Center is a two-acre development in Miami, Florida, United States. It consists of a 765 ft tall office skyscraper and its 15-story parking garage. It was previously known as the Southeast Financial Center (1984–1992), the First Union Financial Center (1992–2003) and the Wachovia Financial Center (2003–2011). In 2011, it retook its old name of Southeast Financial Center as Wachovia merged with Wells Fargo and moved to the nearby Wells Fargo Center.

When topped-off in August 1983, it was the tallest building south of New York City and east of the Mississippi River, taking away the same title from the Westin Peachtree Plaza Hotel, in Atlanta, Georgia. It remained the tallest building in the southeastern U.S. until 1987, when it was surpassed by One Atlantic Center in Atlanta and the tallest in Florida until October 1, 2003, when it was surpassed by the Four Seasons Hotel and Tower, also in Miami. It remains the tallest office tower in Florida and the fourth tallest building in Miami.

Structure
Southeast Financial Center was constructed in three years with more than 500 construction workers. Approximately 6,650 tons of structural steel, 80,000 cubic yards of concrete and 7000 cubic tons of reinforcing steel bars went into its construction. The complex sits on a series of reinforced concrete grade beams tied to 150 concrete caissons as much as ten feet in diameter and to a depth of 80 feet. A steel space-frame canopy with glass skylights covers the outdoor plaza between the tower and low-rise building.

The tower has a composite structure. The exterior columns and beams are concrete encased steel wide flanges surrounded by reinforcing bars. The composite exterior frame was formed using hydraulic steel forms, or "flying forms," jacked into place with a "kangaroo" crane, that was located in the core and manually clamped into place. Wide flange beams topped by a metal deck and concrete form the interior floor framing. The core is A braced steel frame, designed to laterally resist wind loads. The construction of one typical floor was completed every five days.

The low-rise banking hall and parking building is a concrete-framed structure. Each floor consists of nearly an acre of continuously poured concrete. When the concrete had sufficiently hardened, compressed air was used to blow the forms fiberglass forms from under the completed floor. It was then rolled out to the exterior where it was raised by crane into position for the next floor.

The building was recognized as Miami's first and only office building to be certified for the LEED Gold award in January 2010.

History
The center was developed by a partnership consisting of Gerald D. Hines Interests, Southeast Bank and Corporate Property Investors for $180 million. It was originally built as the headquarters for Southeast Bank, which originally occupied 50 percent of the complex's space. It remained Southeast Bank's headquarters there until it was liquidated in 1991.

The Southeast Financial Center comprises two buildings: the 55-story office tower and the 15-story parking annex. The tower has 53 stories of office space. The first floor is dedicated for retail, the second floor is the lobby and the 55th floor was home to the luxurious Miami City Club. The parking annex has 12 floors of parking space for 1,150 cars. The first floor is dedicated for retail, the second floor is a banking hall and the 15th floor has the Downtown Athletic Club. A landscaped plaza lies between the office tower and the parking annex. An enclosed walkway connects the second story of the tower with the second story of the annex. The courtyard is partially protected from the elements by a steel and glass space frame canopy spanning the plaza and attached to the tower and annex. The glass space frame canopy was removed between 2020 and 2021. Southeast Bank's executive offices were located on the 38th floor. Ground was broken on the complex on December 12, 1981 and the official dedication and opening for the complex was held on October 23, 1984.

The Southeast Financial Center was designed by Edward Charles Bassett of Skidmore, Owings and Merrill. The Associate Architect was Spillis Candela & Partners. It has 1,145,311 ft2 (106,000 m2) of office space. A typical floor has about 22,000 ft2 (2,043.87 m2) of office space. Each floor has 9 ft x 9 ft (2.7 m x 2.7 m) floor to ceiling windows. (All of the building's windows are tinted except for the top floor, resulting in strikingly bright and clear views from there.) The total complex has over 2.2 million ft2 (204,000 m2). The distinctive setbacks begin at the 43rd floor. Each typical floor plate has 9 corner offices and the top twelve floors have as many as 16. There are 43 elevators in the office tower. An emergency control station provides computerized monitoring for the entire complex, and four generators for backup power.

The Southeast Financial Center can be seen as far away as Ft. Lauderdale and halfway toward Bimini. Night space shuttle launches from Cape Canaveral 200 miles to the north were plainly visible from the higher floors. The roof of the building was featured in the Wesley Snipes motion picture Drop Zone, where an eccentric base jumper named Swoop parachutes down to the street from a suspended window cleaning trolley. The building also appeared in several episodes of the 1980s TV show Miami Vice and at the end of each episode's opening credits.

Zara founder Amancio Ortega purchased the building from J.P. Morgan Asset Management in December 2016. The purchase price was reportedly over $500 million, making it one of the largest real estate transactions in South Florida history.

Tenants

 * Arnstein & Lehr
 * Bryan Cave
 * Citadel LLC
 * Citadel Securities
 * Cushman & Wakefield
 * DLA Piper
 * Goldman Sachs
 * K&L Gates
 * Merrill Lynch
 * Morgan, Lewis & Bockius
 * Shutts & Bowen
 * Squire Patton Boggs
 * Stroock & Stroock & Lavan
 * Wells Fargo
 * White & Case

title: Southeast Financial Center


text:
User talk:Xtaz~enwiki

Welcome to the Wikipedia
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Feel free to contact me personally with any questions you might have. The Village pump is also a good place to go for quick answers to general questions. You can sign your name by typing 4 tildes, like this: ~.

Be Bold!

Sam [Spade] 23:12, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Xtaz. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Xtaz~enwiki that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name. If you think you might own all of the accounts with this name and this message is in error, please visit Special:MergeAccount to check and attach all of your accounts to prevent them from being renamed.

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Renamed
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title: User talk:Xtaz~enwiki


text:
List of former Catholics

Former Catholics or ex-Catholics are people who used to be Catholic for some time, but no longer identify as such. This includes both individuals who were at least nominally raised in the Roman Catholic faith, and individuals who converted to it in later life, both of whom later rejected and left it, or converted to other faiths (including the related non-Roman Catholic faiths). This page lists well-known individuals in history who are former Catholics.

One 2008 Pew Research Center study estimates that 10.1% of people in the United States describe themselves as former Catholics in some sense. In total the study reports that 44% of Americans profess a different religious affiliation than the one they were raised in. A majority joined another Christian denomination while a substantial minority are counted as currently unaffiliated. A significant number of former Catholics join mainline Protestant denominations with a similar worship pattern, such as Lutheranism or Anglicanism, while others have become Evangelical Christians.

Note: The list includes those who leave the Catholic Church including any Eastern Catholic Church which is in communion with it. People such as Eddie Doherty, who were allowed to transfer from the Latin Catholic Church to an Eastern Catholic church, or vice versa are not considered as "former Roman Catholics", while Eastern Catholics who convert to a non-Catholic church or another religion are considered as such, even though Eastern Catholics do not typically refer to themselves as "Roman".

Eastern Orthodoxy

 * Rod Dreher, writer who converted to Catholicism and then to Eastern Orthodoxy
 * H. Tristram Engelhardt Jr., philosopher and bioethicist
 * Tom Hanks, actor, was involved with Catholicism, Mormonism and the Nazarens as a child, and was a "Bible-toting evangelical teenager", and converted to the Greek Orthodox Church after marrying his second wife.
 * Karl Matzek, artist who joined the Eastern Orthodox Church
 * John Anthony McGuckin, scholar, poet, and priest of the Romanian Orthodox Church
 * Alexis Toth, Ruthenian Catholic Church priest who converted to Orthodoxy and became a saint in the Orthodox Church in America
 * Nathaniel (Popp), archbishop of the Orthodox Church in America's Romanian Episcopate and former interim Metropolitan of the Orthodox Church in America who converted from the Romanian Greek-Catholic Church on 15 February 1968
 * Helen of Anjou, queen consort of the Serbian Kingdom
 * Ita Rina, Yugoslav film actress and beauty queen

Lutheranism

 * Marie Cavallier (now Princess Marie of Denmark), converted upon marriage to Prince Joachim of Denmark
 * Friedrich Heiler, religious scholar in High Church Lutheranism. (Dispute about whether he truly left Catholicism)
 * Henrik, Prince Consort of Denmark, converted upon marriage to Heiress Presumptive Margrethe (now Queen Margrethe II of Denmark)
 * Karel Lavrič, Slovenian liberal nationalist politician and orator
 * Katharina Luther, former nun who married Martin Luther
 * Martin Luther, Protestant reformer and theologian, excommunicated by papal bull Decet Romanum Pontificem
 * Philip Melanchthon, Lutheran theologian and Protestant reformer
 * Thorsten Schäfer-Gümbel, German politician of the SPD
 * Primož Trubar, Slovenian Protestant preacher and writer
 * Tim Walz, Governor of Minnesota and former U.S. Representative from Minnesota's 1st congressional district.

Anglicanism

 * King Henry VIII, king of England who separated the Church of England from the Roman Catholic Church.
 * Madeleine Albright, former US Secretary of State.
 * Pete Buttigieg, former mayor of South Bend, Indiana, a presidential candidate in the 2020 election, and current United States Secretary of Transportation.
 * The Very Revd Miriam Byrne, Irish Catholic nun who became a cathedral provost in the Scottish Episcopal Church.
 * James Francis Byrnes, politician and statesman, United States Senator, US Secretary of State, and former Associate Justice of the US Supreme Court, raised a Catholic in largely Protestant South Carolina, converted to Episcopalianism as an adult.
 * Michael Coren, British-Canadian writer, clergyman, columnist, and host of The Michael Coren Show
 * Thomas Cranmer, Archbishop of Canterbury and Reformer who helped reform the Church of England during the English Reformation.
 * Alberto Cutié, priest who was received in the Episcopal Church after a leave of absence granted by his former bishop and decided to continue priestly ministry as a married man.
 * Matthew Fox, scholar and priest who became an Episcopalian after being silenced by the Vatican for heresy and expelled by the Dominicans for disobedience.
 * Bernard Kenny, New Jersey politician, former majority leader of the New Jersey Senate raised Catholic, became an Episcopalian in protest over Catholic position on abortion.
 * Jim McGreevey, former Governor of New Jersey, who became an Episcopalian.
 * Thomas Nast, political cartoonist, baptized a Catholic in Germany, emigrated to the United States and became an Episcopalian as an adult.
 * Autumn Phillips, received into the Church of England before marrying Peter Phillips to retain his place in the line of succession
 * Kevin Rudd, former prime minister of Australia.
 * The Most Revd Katharine Jefferts Schori, first woman primate in the Anglican Communion
 * Josette Sheeran, director of the United Nations World Food Programme and former editor with the Washington Times, left the Catholic Church to join the Unification Church and later joined the Episcopal Church.
 * John B. Switzer, theologian at Spring Hill College (the Jesuit College of the South); Switzer was a seminarian for the Catholic Diocese of Biloxi studying at the Pontifical North American College in Rome and left seminary training six months before ordination to marry. He is now a priest of the Episcopal Diocese of Mississippi and continues to teach at Spring Hill.

Reformed

 * John Calvin, French religious reformer
 * John Barrasso, United States Senator from Wyoming, raised Catholic, converted to Presbyterianism
 * François Bruys, French historian and essayist
 * Charles Chiniquy, American anti-Catholic writer
 * Clive Derby-Lewis, South African Far-Right politician and convicted murderer
 * Diana DeGette, U.S. Representative for Colorado's 1st congressional district, converted to Presbyterianism
 * Mark Driscoll, founding pastor of Mars Hill Church in Seattle
 * Melissa Joan Hart, actress, converted to Presbyterianism.
 * Dorothy Lucey, news reporter on Good Day LA, converted to the Presbyterian Church (USA)
 * Tom Tancredo, former U.S. Representative for Colorado's 6th congressional district, U.S. Presidential candidate in 2008, Constitution Party candidate for Governor of Colorado in 2010, now Evangelical Presbyterian

Pentecostalism

 * Marcelo Crivella, mayor of Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
 * J. Regina Hyland, pioneer in the field of animals and religion
 * Edir Macedo, founded the Universal Church of the Kingdom of God
 * Efraín Ríos Montt, former de facto President of Guatemala
 * Mariano Rivera, Panamanian-American Hall of Fame baseball pitcher for the New York Yankees
 * Marina Silva, Brazilian politician and environmentalist.

Seventh-day Adventism

 * Mark Finley, pastor and speaker emeritus of It Is Written (Adventist TV program)
 * Marianne Thieme, Dutch politician, Party for the Animals co-founder, converted to Adventism in 2006
 * Walter Veith, scientist, author and speaker known for his work in nutrition, creationism and other Christian topics

Other Protestant

 * Stephen Baldwin, actor converted to non-denominational Protestantism.
 * James Comey, attorney and former Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, converted to the United Methodist Church
 * Matthew Dowd, political consultant, chief strategist for the 2004 Bush-Cheney presidential campaign, raised a Catholic, converted to non-denominational Protestantism.
 * Bob Enyart, Christian talk-show host, pastor of a non-denominational Protestant church.
 * Scott Greer, Daily Caller alumnus, podcaster and author, converted to Protestantism
 * Johannes Gossner, priest, became Protestant, probably Lutheran
 * Marjorie Taylor Greene, politician, converted to non-denominational evangelical Protestantism.
 * Sean Hannity, Irish American radio host, political commentator and media personality, raised Catholic, left the Catholic Church in 2019 and became an evangelical Protestant.
 * Vanessa Hudgens, actress and singer, converted to non-denominational Protestantism.
 * Jan Hus, theologian who founded the Hussites, influenced the Protestant Reformation
 * Jerome of Prague, friend of Jan Hus and Short-Lived leader of the Hussites
 * John Kasich, Governor of Ohio, converted after parents' death to non-denominational Protestantism.
 * Mathieu Kérékou, former President of Benin serving for 45 years from 1971 to 2006
 * Mallory McMorrow, Michigan State Senator, now identifies only as Christian.
 * Manny Pacquiao, Filipino boxer and politician, Raised Catholic, converted to Evangelical Protestantism later in life.
 * Sarah Palin, former Governor of Alaska, converted with family as a child to non-denominational Protestantism.
 * Domineco da Pascia and Silvestro Maruffi, former Italian monks and friends of Girolamo Savonarola
 * Tim Pawlenty, Governor of Minnesota 2003–2011, converted and attending Protestant church with spouse Mary Pawlenty
 * Mike Pence, Vice President of the United States, raised Catholic, converted to Evangelical Protestantism while in college.
 * Gina Rodriguez, actress, now attends a non-denominational Protestant church.
 * Maria Elvira Salazar, Cuban-American journalist and politician, raised Catholic, converted to Evangelical Protestantism as a young adult.
 * Lana Del Rey, singer, now attends a non-denominational Protestant church.

Old Catholic and Independent Catholic churches

 * Joris Vercammen, Archbishop of Utrecht, spiritual leader of the Utrecht Union of Old Catholic Churches
 * Manuel Alonso Corral, Palmarian Catholic Church (anti)pope
 * Clemente Domínguez y Gómez, Palmarian Catholic Church (anti)pope
 * Gregorio Aglipay, Filipino priest who joined the Philippine Independent Church.

Christian Science

 * Joan Crawford, American actress
 * Doris Day, American actress
 * Philip Kerr, 11th Marquess of Lothian, British Ambassador

Mormonism

 * Isabelle Collin Dufresne, later known as Ultra Violet, one of the Warhol superstars
 * Glenn Beck
 * Mia Love

God-Believers
The 'God-believers' (Gottgläubig) movement was an unofficial and unorganised religion in Nazi Germany. Most of the top Nazi leaders had already disaffiliated before the Nazi seizure of power, but even some of the lower ranking Nazi bureaucrats and representatives began disaffilating from the Catholic and Lutheran Churches over the course of the 1930s as a direct result the gradual worsening of relations with the churches, whom they accused of meddling in Germany's political affairs. These people stressed they still believed in a creative power who guided the German nation and rejected atheism. However, the movement disappeared shortly after World War II, and was last referenced in Allied occupation documents in 1946.
 * Adolf Hitler, leader of Germany from 1933 to 1945
 * Heinrich Himmler, SS-Reichsfuhrer
 * Reinhard Heydrich, SS-Obergruppenfuhrer
 * Carl Röver, District Leader of Weser-Ems
 * Joseph Goebbels, Reich Minister of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda

Other former Catholics

 * Anne Rice, American writer, converted from Roman Catholicism and made this official through several messages on her website on 29 July 2010. She no longer wished to be referred to as a 'Christian', though retained her belief in Christ, disagreeing with various positions of the Roman Catholic Church.
 * Magdi Allam, Egyptian–Italian journalist who publicly converted from Sunni Islam to Catholicism in 2008, baptised by Pope Benedict XVI himself. He left the Catholic Church dissatisfied after the election of Pope Francis in 2013, primarily because he thought the Church failed to take a tough stance against Islam; he remained a Christian, however.

Buddhism

 * Roberto Baggio, Italian footballer
 * Lokanatha (Salvatore Cioffi), Italian Theravadin Buddhist missionary monk
 * Pema Chödrön (Deirdre Blomfield-Brown), Tibetan Buddhist nun, mother and grandmother
 * Tsai Chih Chung, Taiwanese cartoonist
 * Patrick Duffy, actor
 * Fabian Fucan, Japanese writer and religious brother in Society of Jesus, eventually converted to Zen Buddhism.
 * Sabina Guzzanti, Italian satirist, actress, writer and producer
 * John Daido Loori, Zen Buddhist rōshi and the abbot of Zen Mountain Monastery
 * Nyanatiloka Mahathera (Anton Walther Florus Gueth), founder of Island Hermitage and one of the earliest western Buddhist monk in modern time.
 * Leung Man-tao, Hong Kong writer, critic and host
 * Michael O'Keefe, Irish-American actor, raised Catholic, became a practicing Zen Buddhist in 1981.
 * Christine Rankin, New Zealand politician and former head of Ministry of Social Development.
 * Hwang Woo-Suk, South Korean scientist
 * Allan Bennett, an English Buddhist and former member of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, an early friend and influential teacher of occultist Aleister Crowley.

Islam

 * Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, American Hall of Fame basketball player, author, born Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor, Jr., raised Catholic in New York City where he attended Catholic schools, converted to Islam in 1971 at age 24.
 * Keith Ellison, first Muslim to serve in the United States Congress
 * Everlast, Irish-American rapper and guitar player
 * René Guénon, French philosopher
 * Diana Haddad, singer raised in the Maronite Church
 * Murad Wilfred Hofmann, diplomat
 * John Walker Lindh, American captured as an enemy combatant during the United States' invasion of Afghanistan in November 2001; baptized Catholic, he converted to Sunni Islam at age 16.
 * Ingrid Mattson, president of the Islamic Society of North America. (She abandoned Catholicism years before her conversion to Islam)
 * Matthew Saad Muhammad, boxer
 * Peter Murphy, lead singer of Bauhaus
 * Sinéad O'Connor, ordained as a priest in the Irish Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church by Michael Cox in 1999; accepted Islam in 2018, becoming Shuhada' Davitt
 * Vinnie Paz, also known as Ikon the Verbal Hologram; American rapper for the underground hip hop group Jedi Mind Tricks
 * Franck Ribéry, French footballer, converted in 2006 to marry his Muslim girlfriend
 * Abel Xavier, Portuguese footballer, grew up in a strict Catholic background in Portuguese Mozambique

Judaism

 * Abraham ben Abraham, Polish Talmudic scholar (conflicting stories though)
 * B'nai Moshe, Peruvian community of Inca descent which embraced Judaism
 * Bishop Bodo, deacon
 * Campbell Brown, American television news reporter, previously an anchor and political pundit for CNN and a former co-anchor of NBC's Weekend Today
 * Yisrael Campbell, comedian
 * Stephen Dubner, American author
 * Abe Foxman, lawyer, activist and former head of the Anti-Defamation League. Born into a Jewish family, he was left with a Polish woman during World War II, who baptized him and raised him Catholic; he was returned to his parents in 1944, whereupon he reverted to Judaism.
 * Paula Fredriksen, American scholar and historian of religion
 * Aaron Freeman, American journalist and comedian
 * Thomas Jones, English publisher
 * John King, American journalist and the host of CNN's State of the Union
 * Anne Meara (1929–2015), American comedian and actress, partner and wife of Jerry Stiller
 * Mary Doria Russell, American author
 * Jews of San Nicandro, Roman Catholic proselyte community to Judaism in Italy
 * Joseph Abraham Steblicki, teacher and treasurer
 * Karen Tintori, American author of fiction and nonfiction
 * Géza Vermes, biblical scholar, Hebraist and historian of religion, best known for being an eminent historical Jesus scholar and translator of the Dead Sea Scrolls; a former Catholic priest of Jewish descent, he rediscovered his Jewish roots, abandoned Christianity and converted to Liberal Judaism.
 * John David Scalamonti, former Catholic priest, converted to Orthodox Judaism.
 * Kenneth Cox, former Catholic priest; changed his name to Abraham Carmel and converted to Orthodox Judaism.

Kabbalah

 * Ariana Grande, American actress and singer
 * Madonna, American singer-songwriter, actress, and businesswoman

Raëlism

 * Brigitte Boisselier, mostly known for her association with Clonaid and the Raëlian Church, raised as a Catholic in Champagne-Ardenne, holds a doctorate in physical chemistry from the University of Dijon in France and another one in analytical chemistry from the University of Houston

Scientology

 * Tom Cruise, American actor, originally desired to become a priest. His girlfriend Katie Holmes married him and also switched from Catholicism to Scientology, but upon her divorce from Cruise in 2012, she returned to the Roman Catholic Church.
 * Jenna Elfman, American actress
 * David Miscavige, leading figure in Scientology
 * John Travolta, American actor, in 1975
 * Nancy Cartwright, American actress
 * Catherine Bell, American actress

Debatable
This section lists some who, while adopting ideas that some others would consider incompatible with the Catholic faith, may have defected from the Church neither by a formal act nor even informally by an act of heresy, schism or apostasy. Mere attendance at services of another religion or adoption of certain meditation techniques need not signify abandonment of one's own religion. According to a 2009 survey of the Pew Research Center Forum on Religion and Public Life, one in five American Catholics report that they at times attend places of worship other than the local Catholic parish (which does not have to mean non-Catholic places). The same survey noted that some Catholics incorporate "yoga as a spiritual practice", emphasize psychics, and draw on and involve themselves in other religious movements.

 * Fidel Castro, excommunicated
 * Jack Clayton, British director who identified himself as an "ex-Catholic"
 * Irene Dailey, American actress who became a Unitarian
 * Christopher Durang, American playwright
 * Edward Gibbon, converted to Catholicism at Oxford University, a year later, under threat of being disinherited, returned to Anglicanism
 * Heather Graham, American actress (Transcendental Meditation)
 * Michael Harrington, American political activist, grew up Catholic, lapsed whilst adopting more radical politics.
 * Ammon Hennacy, American pacifist, Christian anarchist, vegetarian and social activist
 * Anne Jackson, American actress of Irish and Croatian extraction; married to Eli Wallach
 * Bill Keller, New York Times editor who said he was a "collapsed Catholic"
 * Richard Lugner, excommunicated, he is a successful Austrian entrepreneur in the construction industry, and a Viennese society figure
 * Emmanuel Milingo, excommunicated, former Zambian Roman Catholic archbishop
 * Conor Oberst, singer-songwriter

Atheism, agnosticism, or non-religious
This section contains people who rejected Catholicism in favor of a non-religious philosophy, including atheism, agnosticism and secular humanism.

 * Alex Agnew, Belgian comedian and musician
 * Steve Allen, American actor, TV show host, comedian, writer, musician (secular humanist and scientific skeptic)
 * Javier Bardem, Spanish actor
 * Floris van den Berg, Dutch philosopher and writer
 * Paul Bettany, British actor
 * Mike Birbiglia, American comedian, writer, actor, and director
 * Christopher Buckley, political satirist
 * Ed Byrne, Irish stand-up comedian
 * George Carlin, American stand-up comedian
 * Antonio Carluccio, Italian chef, restaurateur and food expert
 * Jimmy Carr, British comedian
 * Jim Carroll, American poet, diarist and musician
 * George Clooney, American actor (agnostic)
 * Pat Condell, British comedian
 * Billy Connolly, Scottish stand-up comedian
 * Marie Curie, Nobel laureate in chemistry and physics
 * Guillermo del Toro, Mexican film director
 * Amanda Donohoe, British actress
 * Klaas Dijkhoff, Dutch politician
 * Theodore Dreiser, American writer (Socialism and possibly Christian Science)
 * Roger Ebert, American journalist, film critic and screenwriter
 * Brian Eno, British musician and record producer
 * Siobhan Fahey, British musician, member of Bananarama, now interested in spiritualism
 * Nick Frost, British actor, comedian and screenwriter
 * Janeane Garofalo, American comedian (Freethought advocate).
 * William Jay Gaynor, politician and judge who became the 94th mayor of New York City. raised Catholic and briefly attended Christian Brothers seminary. Lost belief in organized religion and became an agnostic.
 * Johannes Grenzfurthner, artist and filmmaker; says he has been an atheist since he was 11, and talks about it in interviews and his documentary Traceroute
 * Éamon Gilmore, Tánaiste (Deputy Prime Minister) of Ireland (2011–2017)
 * Kathy Griffin, American comedian and actress
 * James Gunn, American film director and screenwriter for Guardians of the Galaxy who abandoned his Catholicism at the age of 11.
 * Greg Gutfeld, American television personality
 * Amber Heard, American actress
 * Joe Higgins, Socialist Party Member of the European Parliament for Dublin, Ireland
 * François Hollande, 24th President of France
 * Anton van Hooff, Dutch classical historian and columnist
 * Anthony Jeselnik, American stand-up comedian and television writer
 * , Belgian musical band consisting of "Jos Smos", "Zjuul Krapuul" and "Stef Bef" (pseudonyms) who had been singing songs critical of religion for over 30 years before deciding to "debaptise" themselves from the Catholic Church in 2010, and writing an "Ontdopingslieke" ("Debaptism Song") to urge others to do the same. They did this after a series Catholic Church sexual abuse cases of children around the world came to light.
 * Denis Leary, American actor
 * John Lydon, British musician, singer for The Sex Pistols and Public Image Ltd.
 * Seth MacFarlane, writer, creator, producer for Family Guy, American Dad, etc.
 * James McAvoy, Scottish actor
 * Barry McGowan, American author and Atheist leader
 * Pauline McLynn, Irish character actress and author
 * Bill Maher, American comedian and television personality
 * Zoran Milanović, Prime Minister of Croatia (2011-2016) and 5th President of Croatia (2020-)
 * Roh Moo-hyun, 16th President of South Korea
 * Giorgio Napolitano, 11th President of Italy
 * Dara Ó Briain, Irish stand-up comedian and television presenter
 * Joyce Carol Oates, author, critic (atheist)
 * Conor Oberst, American singer-songwriter
 * Bob Odenkirk, American actor and comedian; stated on his Twitter
 * Ronald Plasterk, Dutch professor of microbiology and Minister of Education and Domestic Affairs
 * Park Chan-wook, South Korean film director
 * Ivica Puljak, Croatian sciencist and politician
 * Joe Rogan, American sports commentator and stand-up comedian (agnostic)
 * Chris Rush, American comedian who considers himself spiritual rather than religious
 * Dan Savage, author
 * Andy Serkis, British actor
 * Omar Sharif, actor and bridge player; an Egyptian Melkite Catholic who converted to Islam, later became an atheist
 * Aziz Shavershian, Australian bodybuilder and internet celebrity.
 * Julia Sweeney, atheist comedian on the advisory board of the Secular Coalition for America
 * Janez Stanovnik, Slovenian resistance fighter and politician
 * Laurie Taylor (sociologist)
 * Josip Broz Tito, Yugoslav political leader
 * Rob Trip, Dutch television and radio presenter, calls himself a "cultural Catholic, (...) but I'm not religious at all. Not Catholic and not believing."
 * Jerome Tuccille, author of Heretic: Confessions of an Ex-Catholic Rebel
 * , Dutch television presenter and producer
 * Dana White, first and current president of UFC
 * Robert Anton Wilson, American author, philosopher, novelist, essayist and polymath (agnostic)
 * Terry Wogan, Irish and British radio personality
 * Željko Komšić, Croat member of the Bosnian presidency

title: List of former Catholics


text:
Robert Serber

Robert Serber (March 14, 1909 – June 1, 1997) was an American physicist who participated in the Manhattan Project. Serber's lectures explaining the basic principles and goals of the project were printed and supplied to all incoming scientific staff, and became known as The Los Alamos Primer. The New York Times called him "the intellectual midwife at the birth of the atomic bomb."

Early life and education
He was born in Philadelphia, the eldest son of Rose (Frankel) and David Serber. His family was Jewish. His mother died in 1922 and his father married her cousin Frances Leof in 1928. Robert Serber earned his BS in engineering physics from Lehigh University in 1930 and earned his PhD in physics from the University of Wisconsin–Madison with John Van Vleck in 1934. He married Charlotte Leof (26 Jul 1911 – 1967), the daughter of his stepmother's uncle, in 1933.

Shortly before receiving his doctorate, Serber was selected for a National Research Council postdoctoral fellowship and planned on conducting research at Princeton University with Eugene Wigner. However, after spontaneously enrolling at the University of Michigan's physics summer school, he changed his plans and went to work with J. Robert Oppenheimer at the University of California, Berkeley. For the next four years, he shuttled with Oppenheimer between Berkeley and the California Institute of Technology, where Oppenheimer held a secondary faculty appointment. In 1938, he took one of the era's few tenure-track professorships in physics at the University of Illinois Urbana–Champaign, where he stayed until he was recruited for the Manhattan Project.

Manhattan Project
He was recruited for the Manhattan Project in 1941, and was in Project Alberta on the dropping of the bomb. When the Los Alamos National Laboratory was first organized, Oppenheimer decided not to compartmentalize the technical information among different departments. This boosted the technical workers' effectiveness in problem-solving and underscored the project's urgency, as they now understood its significance. Consequently, Serber was tasked with delivering a series of lectures to explain the basic principles and objectives of the project. These lectures were printed and supplied to all incoming scientific staff, and became known as The Los Alamos Primer, LA-1. It was declassified in 1965. Serber developed the first good theory of bomb assembly hydrodynamics.

Serber's wife Charlotte Serber was appointed by Oppenheimer to head the technical library at Los Alamos, where she was the only wartime female section leader.

Serber created the code-names for all three design projects, the "Little Boy" (uranium gun), "Thin Man" (plutonium gun), and "Fat Man" (plutonium implosion), according to his reminiscences (1998). The names were based on their design shapes; the "Thin Man" would be a very long device, and the name came from the Dashiell Hammett detective novel and series of movies of the same name; the "Fat Man" bomb would be round and fat and was named after Sydney Greenstreet's character in The Maltese Falcon (from Hammett's novel). "Little Boy" would come last and be named only to contrast to the "Thin Man" bomb. This differs from the unsupported, abandoned theory that "Fat Man" was named after Churchill and "Thin Man" after Roosevelt.

After receiving an identification card noting that his civilian noncombatant duties were commensurate in profile to the Army of the United States rank of colonel (an administrative designation only ostensibly valid if he were captured as a prisoner of war under the 1929 Geneva Convention, although he was frequently afforded salutations and other perquisites of the rank in practice by military personnel while traveling), Serber was to go on Big Stink, the camera plane for the Nagasaki mission, as a technical advisor; however, it left without him when group operations officer Major James I. Hopkins ordered him off the plane because he had forgotten his parachute, reportedly after the B-29 had already taxied onto the runway. Since Serber was the only crew member who knew how to operate the high-speed camera, Hopkins had to be instructed by radio from Tinian on its use. Serber was with the first American team to enter Hiroshima and Nagasaki to assess the results of the atomic bombing of the two cities.

Post-war work and personal life
Although Oppenheimer sought an appointment for Serber in the Berkeley physics department following the end of the war, this was soon forestalled, possibly because of the anti-Semitism of department chair Raymond Thayer Birge. Birge had previously refused to offer a tenure-track appointment to Serber after he received his University of Illinois offer, opining that "one Jew in the department is enough." Oppenheimer prevailed in placing him as head of the theoretical division of the Berkeley Radiation Laboratory under Ernest Lawrence; however, as his mentor segued into policy consultancies and the presidency of the Institute for Advanced Study in 1947, Serber frequently took over his courses, ultimately resulting in his appointment to the Berkeley faculty.

In 1948, Serber had to defend himself against anonymous accusations of disloyalty, mostly because his wife Charlotte's family were Jewish intellectuals with socialist leanings, and also because he tried to remove politics from discussions of the feasibility of the fusion bomb, leading to arguments with Edward Teller. There was some speculation that Serber was a member of the Communist Party. Oppenheimer said it was possible he was member, but did not know, whereas the FBI concluded that "no definite evidence is known" for his membership. Although he had been cleared of any potential wrongdoing at a subsequent hearing that year, he was denied a prerequisite security clearance for a Japanese physics conference in 1952, precipitating his refusal to join a Teller-chaired Department of Defense advisory group.

While he reluctantly signed the loyalty oath stipulated by the Levering Act for Berkeley personnel in 1950, growing antagonism between Oppenheimer and the more conservative Lawrence eventually spurred his departure. In 1951, he became a professor of physics at Columbia University at the behest of Manhattan Project colleague I. I. Rabi. He served as chair of the department from 1975 until his retirement as professor emeritus in 1978.

At Columbia, Serber served as doctoral advisor to future Nobelist Leon Cooper. He also collaborated with Abraham Pais on meson studies and developed the Serber-Dancoff method, a refined technique for analyzing strong coupling. He also consulted numerous labs, businesses, and commissions, including Brookhaven National Laboratory (where he worked one day a week during the academic year and occasional summers for twenty years) and Fermilab, as a specialist in the proton–proton chain reaction and the focusing properties of particle accelerators. Although largely bereft of any ideology, he refused to join the Defense Department-affiliated JASON consulting group because of his previous clearance issues and opposition to the Vietnam War.

After being diagnosed with Parkinson's disease, Charlotte Serber suffered from depression and took her own life with an overdose of sleeping pills on May 22, 1967. Serber then entered a relationship with Kitty Oppenheimer, who had been widowed in February 1967. She talked him into buying a 52 ft yawl, which they sailed from New York to Grenada. In 1972, they purchased a 52 ft ketch, with the intention of sailing through the Panama Canal and to Japan via the Galapagos Islands and Tahiti during Serber's sabbatical. They set out, but Kitty became ill, and was taken to Gorgas Hospital, where she died of an embolism on October 27, 1972. Serber and Toni Oppenheimer scattered her cremains near the Oppenheimers' longtime vacation home in Saint John, U.S. Virgin Islands, which he continued to use.

Following his retirement, he married Fiona St. Clair, a fabric designer from Saint Thomas, U.S. Virgin Islands, in 1979. He adopted her son Zachariah, and they had another son, William, in November 1980.

He served as president of the American Physical Society in 1971. A year later, Serber was awarded the J. Robert Oppenheimer Memorial Prize.

Serber appears in the Oscar-nominated documentary The Day After Trinity (1980).

Serber died June 1, 1997, at his home in Manhattan from complications of surgery for brain cancer.

In popular culture
He was portrayed by Michael Angarano in Christopher Nolan's 2023 film Oppenheimer.

title: Robert Serber


text: Template:AWNB Politics HR

title: Template:AWNB Politics HR


text:
Best Supporting Actress

Best Supporting Actress may refer to one of many awards, including:

 * Academy Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * AACTA International Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * Black Reel Award: Best Supporting Actress
 * Blue Dragon Film Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * Boston Society of Film Critics Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * Broadcast Film Critics Association Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * César Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * Citra Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * Chicago Film Critics Association Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * Dallas-Fort Worth Film Critics Association Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * David di Donatello for Best Supporting Actress
 * Empire Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * Filmfare Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * Florida Film Critics Circle Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * Golden Calf Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * Golden Globe Award for Best Supporting Actress – Motion Picture
 * Golden Horse Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * Best Supporting Actress (Golden Rooster Awards)
 * Goya Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * Hong Kong Film Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * Hundred Flowers Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * Los Angeles Film Critics Association Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * National Board of Review Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * National Film Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * National Society of Film Critics Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * New York Film Critics Circle Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * Online Film Critics Society Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * Polish Academy Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * San Diego Film Critics Society Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * San Francisco Film Critics Circle Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * Satellite Award for Best Supporting Actress – Motion Picture
 * Saturn Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * St. Louis Gateway Film Critics Association Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * Toronto Film Critics Association Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * Vancouver Film Critics Circle Award for Best Supporting Actress
 * Washington D.C. Area Film Critics Association Award for Best Supporting Actress

title: Best Supporting Actress


text: User talk:158.64.72.230

title: User talk:158.64.72.230


text:
Talk:Paul Andreu

Dubai terminal
Hi, thanks for adding the sentence about the collapse of the Dubai terminal - interesting news.

Maybe it's worthwhile to note here that Aeroports de Paris International (Andreu's company) seems to blames the incident on the construction workers: from [http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,10905177%255E401,00.html this] Associated Press story:
 * A senior official from Aeroports de Paris International, the French company appointed as the initial design consultant for the Terminal 3 expansion, said the accident occurred when a crane carrying a metal girder smashed into steel reinforcements supporting a concrete wall.

 * The girders fell as far as 60ft onto workers below, said Marc Noyelle, chairman of the company's engineering arm. ...

 * "It was a building site accident, not a design fault," Noyelle said.

 * The French company worked on the overall plan for the Dubai terminal, but said it had no responsibility for the design or construction of the Concourse 2 boarding area, where the deaths occurred.

However, it's difficult to judge from a few minutes' worth of googling whether it can really be ruled out that this was due to a mistake by Andreu or his company. For two days after the accident, 7000 workers at the airport were on strike. Maybe their pov was different. Regards, High on a tree 23:19, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Following the above as well as this comment from 2008 I removed the following sentence "On September 28, 2004, a reinforcement cage section erected to form a retaining wall on another Andreu-designed terminal, Terminal 3 at Dubai International Airport, collapsed while under construction, killing five construction workers." as it appears to imply Paul Andreu's responsibility, yet is unreferenced and contested. -- ELEKHHT 02:26, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Paris's Charles de Gaulle airport terminal 2E
It seems like it was his mistake from this report. That is however just my perception. They use very neutral language, so i think its very possible i got it all wrong. By the way, is there any article about the accident? I went round and round and could see anything that particularly highlight the history of terminal 2E from conception to the collapse. If there is, its not grouped under category, since i clicked on French Airports and nothing showed up. I also find it hard to believe we missed it since it was a recent event, so it may likely be under a title that don't have terminal 2E

 * yes, the article should be updated according to that new report.
 * afaik there is no separate wikipedia entry about the accident. it is mentioned in the article Charles de Gaulle International Airport, which is an apt place for it after all. regards, High on a tree 05:37, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 02:24, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Paul Andreu


text: User talk:83.99.49.194

title: User talk:83.99.49.194


text: User talk:210.55.39.254

title: User talk:210.55.39.254