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Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/October 2004 I

Chimes at Midnight
Is there a song with this title?

Once I saw a documentary in Discovery Channel about war strategies in medieval times, and they had this song playing all the time, with choirs and timpanis... At the end credits, I saw credits to "Chimes at Midnights" close the "music" credits. So, I suppose is the name of the such song. Searching for this I could indeed find references to a song, but nothing too substantial.

Err... What could it be? — Kieff | Talk 05:46, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)

 * There is, of course, the Orson Welles 1965 film Chimes at Midnight. Possibly the credit referred to music from the film, which was composed by Angelo Francesco Lavagnino. Gandalf61 11:41, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)

I believe there is a Jethro Tull song by this name. And I believe it was one of their pseudo-medieval things, so it might be the one. -- Jmabel 22:42, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)

Since the phrase is from a moderately famous Shakespeare quote, there could well be multiple songs by that name. --Matt McIrvin 23:01, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

article and picture on the king crab?
I'm not sure if this is the right place to request an article, but I'm wondering if we can get an article on the king crab? I heard it was supposed to have up to a 12ft armspan...
 * According to our article the largest crab is the Japanese spider crab with a legspan of 13 feet and weight of 44 lbs. Rmhermen 15:42, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)
 * King crab is another name for Horseshoe crab. It is more closely related to spiders than crabs. It has nothing like a 12 foot legspan - can you describe the thing you are talking about? It certainly sounds like a Japanese Spider Crab. The Recycling Troll 15:55, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * The last time a question about large crabs came up here, it prompted a community effort to flesh out the article on Coconut crab - it doesn't have the reach of the Japanese spider crab but it wins on bulk. -- Solipsist 17:39, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * The article says the coconut crab only gets to 4 kg (less than 9 lbs.) - a long way from 44 lbs for the Japanese spider crab. It is the largest land crab, though. Also something else is called King Crab as can be seen at . It apparently has several species. Rmhermen 21:35, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)
 * ITIS gives five valid species called king crabs:

Rmhermen 21:40, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)
 * Blue king crab, Paralithodes platypus (Brandt, 1850)
 * California king crab, Paralithodes californiensis (Benedict, 1894)
 * Red king crab, Paralithodes camtschaticus (Tilesius, 1815)
 * Scarlet king crab, Lithodes couesi (Benedict, 1894)
 * Golden king crab, Lithodes aequispina (Benedict, 1894)

 * It seems like we have some work to do on crabs... ;) The Recycling Troll 23:25, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Just for ducks, I changed King crab from a redirect to Horseshoe crab to include the above list. WormRunner | Talk 05:07, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Kings Crabs are members of the infraorder Paguroidea of Hermit Crabs. Gdr 13:04, 2004 Oct 11 (UTC)

Weena Mercator a.k.a. The Hopping Woman
Who is Weena Mercator: The Hopping Woman? I've seen reference to her in the show Freakazoid. I believe her name also appears in the credits to the game Star Wars Shadows of the Empire for the Nintedo 64 gaming console. I can't seem to find the origins of Weena Mercator. Who is Weena Mercator and where did she come from? ~ Joshua Renaud.
 * aka "la femme de houblonnage" I think it's just an in joke from Freakazoid, that has spread a little. She is listed in many places as playing 'a hopping woman'. The Recycling Troll 23:33, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Weena Mercator first appeared in the credits of the original Star Wars in 1977 and the following two movies in the trilogy The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. As there was no real explanation or origin of Ms. Mercator before this, we can assume that Star Wars was her first "appearance." Ms. Mercator and her famous role as The Hopping Woman became an in-joke for those few fans who actually noticed the credit in the original trilogy of Star Wars films (hence her presence in Freakazoid, a show known for it's sci-fi geek indulgences). As for who thought her up, we will never know... VTMarik 04:01, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Deciphering Chinese
I've received sth in Chinese and, not knowing the language at all, have no idea what it says. This is especially confusing because it's the name of whoever sent it, and sent from an invalid address.

 * 儂融國際股份有限公司

What is a rough translation of this? -- 00:00, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * If you don't get a reply, you might want to try the Chinese Wikipedia. The Recycling Troll 00:14, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Here's what I can tell you from a rough knowledge of Chinese: the first two characters are just a name; the second two mean "international"; the next two mean "investment" (I think); and the last four mean "limited company". So it's the So-and-so International Investment Company. Mjklin 11:19, 2004 Oct 2 (UTC)

 * It's Taiwanese Spam, I believe.--Fangz 20:51, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

kidney cancer
Kidney cancer? Mark Richards 17:22, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

can anyone help
social and cultural factors that impact on contemporary health status of inuits.(Canadian)

 * Didn't we just deal with this one? Mark Richards 17:20, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Referencing
What is the convention for referencing quotes and paraphrases of articles in Wikipedia?

 * Have a look at Citing_Wikipedia. --[[User:Bodnotbod| bodnotbod »  .....TALK Q uietly  )  ]] 16:44, Oct 2, 2004 (UTC)

Fountain dedidcated to Africans in Paris?
Can someone tell me the name of the two tiered monument(fountain) located in a around about (rotory) that is surrounded by black statutes. It is very ornately decorated with gold and the statutes are all facing outward. It looks maybe to be dedicated to Africans but I'm not sure. I was in Paris and took a picture of it while driving but never could find reference to it. I can send you the picture if it would help.

Thanks In advance.

 * Post the picture, if we don't have one already, it can go into whatever article comes from this... This site might help. Intrigue 23:04, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Pre-Gregorian date confusion.
Before the adoption of the Gregorian Calendar the new year began in March (at least in England and a a number of other European countries). I was just looking at 1066. ''January 6 - Harold II is crowned King of England the day after Edward the Confessor dies. '' - Presumably this was actually 1065 and has been retrospectively "corrected" to follow the convention of the new year beginning in January. Can we be sure that this has been followed consistently? I mean can we be sure that there arn't articles and timelines where the chronology is skewed because of confusion over this issue? Should we make a note of this possible confusion in our articles on years and dates?Mintguy (T) 10:38, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Hoo boy, talk about a can of worms. See, for the man on the street, the year always began on January 1, since 45 BC or so. (Before that it started in the spring -- hence "September", "October", etc. as seventh and eigth month.) The Church, however, didn't like the festivities which accompanied this, and so at the second Council of Tours in 567 (according to one source; another says it was the third) they decided that having the year start on 1 January was an ancient mistake that should be corrected. Chaos and confusion ensued until everyone caught up with each other and the Gregorian calendar was adopted ... well, actually, that wasn't global until 1924 or so, and even then only mostly ... so, in other words, it's a mess, so we can't assume one way or another about Edward the Confessor's dates, without synching it with other dates (like, "in the fourth year of the reign of blah blah, Edward the Confessor died.") Me, I prefer to use Julian days, which does puzzle people because they confuse it with the unrelated Julian calendar, but which lack the whole concept of "year". --jpgordon 05:54, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * What you have to watch though is that some historians will use the ecclesiastic calendar starting on 25th March (Lady Day) while others will stick to 1st January. It all depends on what angle they're looking at history from, at the end of the day.  In family history, a standard that is used is to use the date 6th February 1645/6, i.e. 6th Feb in 1645 in the ecclesiastic calendar, or 6th Feb 1646 to every bugger else! -- Graham  ☺ | Talk 12:59, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Then should we not also follow this convention for biographical articles? Mintguy (T) 18:05, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * The maintainers of the Samuel Pepys' Diary blog use that convention with the slash when dating entries from the early months of each year. --Matt McIrvin 13:14, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I'd go with it. Something to watch is that different countries in Europe made the change beteen Julian and Gregorian calendars at different times: in England it was in 1752 but was one of the last countries to do it.  Where do we propose this as policy? -- Graham  ☺ | Talk 19:51, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * The policy for calendars is at Manual of Style (dates and numbers). Currently there's nothing about what convention to use for the start of the year. My preference is to translate dates after 1582 into the Gregorian Calendar and to use the January 1 start for the year. This allows comparison of dates in different countries at the cost of not matching primary sources. But remember that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia for the general reader, so clarity and comprehensibility to our intended readership is more important than consistency of dates with primary sources. Gdr 12:54, 2004 Oct 11 (UTC)

 * I added a paragraph to Manual of Style (dates and numbers) explaining what to do for dates in calendars which didn't start the year on 1 January. Gdr 16:06, 2004 Oct 13 (UTC)

Why do we roll our eyes?
Does anyone know why we roll our eyes at certain things? It seems to go across many cultures and I'd think it has some sort of brain/cognition reason. Any have any clues? Thanks. JoeSmack (talk) 22:50, Oct 3, 2004 (UTC)

 * Yes, it really seems like some natural behaviour. Perhaps by rolling our eyes we're avoiding to see the thing we're not interested in... I dunno, probably a stupid guess... hehe, oh well...   — Kieff | Talk 23:04, Oct 3, 2004 (UTC)

 * This is interesting. There is a tendency for people to physically react when they think soneone is lying to them, or is simply incorrect about something. Various reaction behaviors include crossing one's arms, scratching one's ears or nose, rubbing one's eye, etc. You may want to read our articles at gesture, nonverbal communication, body language, and facial expression, however, none of these articles seem to cover eye rolling. func(talk) 01:49, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Bike wheel problems
I have an old cruiser, and I just got a new single speed rear wheel for it. I put it on, and tightened the bolts, but the wheel moves in the frame. I tightened them as far as I dare without threading them, but no joy, it still moves - any tips? Thanks, Jordan.

 * You need to tighten the cones before you tighten the outer nuts. The cones are the cone-shaped nuts that go between the wheel bearing and the frame.  On an assembled wheel, the sloping parts of the cones point inwards, so you can only see the outer ends of the cones, which look like cylindrical nuts with two flattened faces.  Tighten these gently until they are just finger-tight, then tighten the outer nuts.  Check that the wheel still turns freely - if it doesn't, loosen everything and try again. --Heron 08:22, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Copyleft Logo Designer - who was
Seeking information on who actually came up with the idea and execution for the reversed © symbol. If you also know the origins of the copyright, trademark, patent and registered symbols, it would be helpful. thanks in advance.

marcus@locarecords.com

 * I don't know, but it was in use informally in the protest / anarchist movement for a long time. I would not be surprised if there is no one person who claims to have done this first. The others should be easier to track down, have you looked on the articles about those things here? Mark Richards 21:47, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * i've searched wikipedia and the web in general for information regarding these designs but can find nothing - Marcus

 * Some guy on talk:copyleft was claiming it was a logo he made or something similar, you might want to look at the history or archive for that page.

 * Definately an interesting idea - thanks for pointing me to that (how do i contact "Iseeaboar" as there was no edit facility on the article? Also, I've contacted many of the governing bodies too - the copyright office etc but none appear to have any specific information either.

SPECTRE COMPUTER
Hi,

I'm a CS student. I wanna know more about the SPECTRE and its functioning priciples. I searched online, but there's few.I'm asking where we can find more about this SPECTRE computer system.

Many many thanks!! Danny Calden

 * I don't think there is enough information here for people to help you - can you be more specific? Mark Richards 19:40, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Apparently SPECTRE was a hypothetical (never constructed) computer described for teaching purposes, probably at University of Waterloo, Ontario. If you really want to know, you could buy a copy of the manual from 1969, e.g. via BookFinder.com. -R. S. Shaw 22:56, 2004 Oct 11 (UTC)

Gregorian Calendar
Did the Gregorian Calendar originate in Rome or Vatican City?
 * The Gregorian Calendar was proposed by a physician from Calabria, Aloysius Lilius. --jpgordon 17:02, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Also, at that point in time, I believe the use of the term "Vatican City" would be anachronistic. Prior to the founding of the nation state of Italy, that whole region would have been part of the Papal States. I believe that the Vatican City was set aside at the time of Italian unification precisely so that the Pope would retain sovereignty over this complex of buildings. -- Jmabel 17:57, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)
 * Later than that. The Vatican City was established as an independent state in 1929 by the Lateran treaties. --jpgordon 19:27, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Italy got unified during about 1860 - 1870 (unification was completed in 1870 when the kingdom's military forces captured Rome with little resistance). The pope refused to recognize the new state and forbade Catholics to vote in Italian elections.  The popes relaxed that prohibition, allowing voting in local elections, but peace was not made until the treaty of 1929, in which the king recognized Vatican City as an independent state.  Since the Gregorian calendar originated in the 16th century, it could not have originated in Vatican City. Michael Hardy 02:13, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Supermarket headquarters in Spain
Hi. My family and i have just relocated to spain where i am looking to set up a business retailing seafood to majour supermarket chains. If anyone knows of anywhere that i can find a list of adresses for any supermarkets headquarters in spain please contact me at buffyfan4ever@hotmail.com (sorry, this is my da<ughters address as i have yet to have my home computer connected to the internet) thanx

''By anonymous; moved from the Village Pump. [[User:Poccil|Peter O. (Talk)]] 16:16, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)''

 * You might have better luck on the Spanish-language wikipedia. Or by contacting the Spanish equivalent of a Chamber of Commerce. -- Jmabel 18:00, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)

Musical term "to go gold"
Related to reaching a certain number of sales but i) how many and ii) does it apply to only albums or do singles count too? --Cfailde 16:37, 2004 Oct 4 (UTC)

 * See RIAA certification. It appears that albums and singles are counted separately.  [[User:Poccil|Peter O. (Talk)]] 16:44, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the link. --Cfailde 16:59, 2004 Oct 4 (UTC)

how do i
how would i cite the article coming from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca-Cola_Company

 * See Citing Wikipedia. -- Wapcaplet 19:45, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Dorothy Parker quotation (again)
About a month ago I asked about which book Dorothy Parker was referring when she wrote this is not a book to be discarded lightly, it should be thrown with great force and the answer came back as The House at Pooh Corner by A. A. Milne.

I have since managed to get hold of a copy of that review, and that sentence is not mentioned anywhere. Does anyone have any other ideas? -- Graham ☺ | Talk 21:40, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * 'Fraid not. The quote is not, unless I missed it, in any of the reviews reprinted in The Portable Dorothy Parker (though it doesn't cover all of her Constant Reader columns). The net is no help. Books of quotations track it down only as far as being quoted in R.E. Drennan's The Algonquin Wits, which has it succinctly as "Book Review: This is not a novel to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force." -- DrBob 01:27, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

alternate names for "lifejacket"
I want to expand the article lifejacket (actually, I want to move it to Personal flotation device, THEN expand it). I cannot believe that this stub is all that exists on this topic in Wikipedia. I've checked under PFD, Personal flotation device, life jacket (a redirect to lifejacket), and life vest for duplicate articles. Are there any more names that I just haven't thought of? Joyous 02:48, Oct 5, 2004 (UTC)

 * To me, "personal flotation device" appears PC-synonymous with "lifejacket". [[User:Poccil|Peter O. (Talk)]] 03:14, Oct 5, 2004 (UTC)
 * Nothing at Mae Wests either. Rmhermen 03:20, Oct 5, 2004 (UTC)
 * There is a brief mention at Mae West however. -- Solipsist 12:33, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I don't see what's (negatively) PC about it; "lifejacket", "lifevest", "Mae West" etc are handy nicknames but PFD is specific and, perhaps most useful, the term that's actually printed on the product, so I would agree that it's the right name for an encylcopedia article. Having said that, I can't say I know it's called that outside the U.S. and Canada, but that's what the web is for. So I'd say go for it. Sharkford 13:41, 2004 Oct 5 (UTC)

 * There is a policy (not one which I'm happy with, but there you go) which says that articles should use the most common name: thus lifejacket would be more appropriate than "personal floatation device". --Tagishsimon

I don't think that PC has anything to do with it (unless someone can come up with something offensive regarding the word life or vest). In general, though, I think that the term "personal flotation device" covers a category of objects including life vests, life preservers, and other buoyant objects for individuals. A life vest, though, specifically defines a type of personal flotation device that you wear around your shoulders and body. Cvaneg 18:09, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * A ray of light strikes us. Lifejacket (or Life jacket, which actually gets more Google hits) is a subcategory of PFD. The latter should definitely have an article. Whether there's enough to say about LJ by itself, I dunno. Sharkford 19:14, 2004 Oct 5 (UTC)

Blasphemy?
The contents of the Koran in this library says that Jesus has no share in Divinity and that He never went to the cross. It also says that Allah has no sons whereas the Christian faith states that '...Jesus is the only (begotten) Son of God.' The Christian Scriptures also state that there is no other name than Jesus by which men and women can be saved from eternal damnation and benefit from the love of God in Heaven. What do you think of the above? Regards, FJL

 * I think that you shouldn't create duplicate entries on here. Also it is profoundly irrelevant for followers of one religion to criticise another, and remember that Christianity is a heresy to the Jews so the saying about motes and beams comes to mind... -- Arwel 12:51, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I think it shows that different religions don't agree on points of doctrine, but then, that's kind of what it means to be different religions... Mark Richards 19:27, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * There is very little that can be said about this "blasphemy" from an NPOV. Therefore, this is probably not an appropriate question for the Wikipedia reference desk. ike9898 21:44, Oct 5, 2004 (UTC)

 * FJL :- (I would first point out that the Reference Desk is designed for factual queries, not as a forum for extended discussion or debate.) You might want to read Isa and Christian views of Jesus. The sacred writings of Islam and Christianity contain very different viewpoints on Jesus; no doubt both consider the doctrine of the other to be heresy blasphemy. Muslims consider Jesus to be one of the Prophets of Islam. As you point out, traditional Christian doctrine is that Jesus was divine and that he died on the cross (see, e.g., Nicene Creed). You also allude to Acts 4:12, which, in reference to Jesus Christ, states that "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." (NIV). — Matt 23:03, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Don't be so sure that each considers the doctrine of the other to be heresy. Islam arose too late to achieve the status of "heresy" by being condemned by an Eccesiastical Council. Considerable Christian ink has been shed over whether it's a pagan religion or a heresy: Hilaire Belloc notably held it was the latter; I think (but cannot swear) that the Catholic Church tended to believe that a Christian who embraced Islam was an apostate, not a heretic. - Nunh-huh 01:53, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Interesting! (Although, annoyingly, I actually meant to write "blasphemy" above, not "heresy"). — Matt 09:17, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Setting up a private wiki
Can someone give me some idea of how hard it would be to set up a personal wiki system? I am interested because I think it would a very useful way to organize some on-going personal research. At this point it would be fine with me if it 'lived' in my personal computer, rather than on a web server. To help you gauge your answer, it am a technically-minded person, but not a computer/database/web-site specialist. If this would be very challenging, can you suggest another simple set up lots of related pages of text with links between them? ike9898 21:39, Oct 5, 2004 (UTC)
 * Is it just for you, or do you want it available to others? There is a Wikibook on how to set up a wiki I think. Mark Richards 23:42, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * The Wikibook that Mark refers to is at Wiki Science (note, this is an external link to our sister project, Wikibooks). Gentgeen 23:59, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

help
what are california pods/chile pasilla? i know it is a food but i don't know what
 * This page seems to have a good explanation for you.  Pasilla is a name given to a number of peppers. The chilaca pepper when dried is a pasilla.  In some places the ancho pepper is called the pasilla roja.  In Oaxaca there is a pepper that, when smoked and dried is called a pasilla de Oaxaca. Liblamb 18:30, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Quillaia
What is Quillaia? It's apparently in my root beer, but beyond that.. [[User:Rhymeless|Rhymeless | (Methyl Remiss)]] 06:02, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Our List of food additives says that E number 999 quillaia extract is a humectant. Which leads to the question -why do you need a humectant in a drink? Rmhermen 13:20, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)
 * I found out more - it is a foaming agent. Also called China bark extract, Murillo bark extract, panama bark extract, quillai extract, Quillaia extract, quillay bark extract, Soapbark extract. So it is a bark, not a root. The World Health Organization says "milled inner bark or of the wood of pruned stems and branches of Quillaja saponaria Molina (family Rosaceae). The term ‘quillaia’ refers to the dried inner bark of the tree, which is a large evergreen with shiny, leathery leaves and a thick bark, native to China and several South American countries, principally Bolivia, Chile, and Peru." It contains a high quantity of saponins and has some use in vaccine preparation. Rmhermen 13:28, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)

Silent Film Stars
Are there any silent film stars that are still living today besides Anita Page?

 * This might be stretching the description of "star" somewhat but the Australian actor Bill Kerr (born 1922) is still around and kicking (IMDB gives his latest film role as "Fairy Guide" in the 2003 version of Peter Pan). While IMDB lists his first role as the 1933 Australian film "Harmony Row", I read a while back that he started his film career as a child actor in short films in the silent period.  The article also pointed out that he held the record for the longest active film career (70+ years).  --Roisterer 01:33, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * It's funny, I was just yesterday thinking about the very topic of who is the oldest actor still around since Ronald Reagan and Fay Wray died this year. Luise Rainer is still alive--she's got to be 85 at least.  Eddie Albert is 95.  Gloria Stuart must be about 90.  Sir John Mills is about 90.  The oldest I know is Charles Lane, who acted from the 1920s to the 1990s.  He will be 100 next January 26.  I'd love to know if anyone knows any other nonagenarians or centarians from the movies.  Ave!  PedanticallySpeaking 18:43, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

 * Al Lewis is 94... [[User:Rhymeless|Rhymeless | (Methyl Remiss)]] 06:23, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Just remembered another one: Dickie Moore is 80, and made his debut in 1927.  Moore was in the Our Gang comedies of the early 30s and is most famous for being the first person to kiss Shirley Temple on screen.  --Roisterer 07:04, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I ran through the list of "entertainers of the present" in the World Almanac last night, and the oldest one entered still living was Hildegard, the singer, born February 1, 1906. Those born in 1910 or before I spotted were:
 * 1) Charles Lane (not in Almanac), born January 26, 1905 first credit on IMDB in 1931, last in 1995)
 * 2) Sir John Mills, February 22, 1908
 * 3) Eddie Albert, April 22, 1908
 * 4) Luise Rainer, January 12, 1910 (oldest living acting Oscar winner)
 * 5) Al Lewis, April 30, 1910
 * 6) Constance Cummings, May 15, 1910
 * 7) Katherine Dunham, June 22, 1910 (IMDB says June 24, 1909)
 * 8) Gloria Stuart, July 4, 1910
 * 9) Kitty Carlisle Hart (tv personality), September 3, 1910
 * 10) Dame Alicia Markova (dancer), December 1, 1910

Other older living Oscar winners are Karl Malden (March 22, 1912, Jane Wyman (January 4, 1914), Olivia de Havilland (July 1, 1916, her sister Joan Fontaine (October 22, 1917), and Jennifer Jones (July 1, 1916). The oldest entertainer the Almanac listed besides the above was bandleader and composer Mitch Miller, born July 4, 1911. PedanticallySpeaking 16:12, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

Remembering
Can a person remember something when they were 1 year old of age or younger?
 * We ought to be able to point you at a Wikipedia article called Infantile Amnesia, but there doesn't seem to be one. The Amnesia article has a very brief mention of "Childhood amnesia", but IA is the common term used for what mainstream psychology considers the normal inabililty to form or retain memories from early childhood. Putting that phrase into your favourite search engine should bring you to lots of info. At a glance, there seems to be a lot of sites taking issue with the mainstream approach. How about making sense of it all and writing the article for us?! Sharkford 16:36, 2004 Oct 6 (UTC)

Reserved Words
User func here. In programming languages, I understand that a variable cannot have the same name as a language key word, or reserved word, such as "if" or "while". There would not be enough context for the compiler/interpreter to disambiguate the difference between "if" as syntax-glue and "if" as variable. What I don't fully understand is why an object-oriented language also doesn't allow the methods and properties of objects to use the reserved words. For instance, I have often wanted to create object methods in JavaScript called things like "char" or "int", but the language doesn't allow for it, ("char" and "int" are reserved for future use): var o = new Object; o.char = function( ... ) { whatever } // throws a reserved identifier error Consider, the dot-syntax (or whatever object-syntax is used in the language) should make it clear and unambiguous to the compiler/interpreter that "char" is being used in an "identifying" way and not in a syntactic way. if ( test ) { whatever } // no ambiguity, myValue = myObject.if;  //        right? As compiler design is way above my head, I was just wondering if there was any reason why methods and instance variables are constrained in this way? func(talk) 17:16, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)== Reserved Words ==

Computer languages don't have to have reserved words. For example FORTRAN — or at least FORTRAN as it stood back when it was widely used, I have no idea about newer FORTRAN standards — does not. For example, the following is perfectly good FORTRAN. IF = 7 FORMAT = 3.17 So, infamously, is        DO 10 I = 1.10 Because FORTRAN ignores spaces in variable names, instead of being the top of a loop (as it would be if that period were a comma) this assigns the value 1.10 to the variable DO10I. Charming.

Probably things like this are why most later languages followed Algol in having reserved words instead of FORTRAN's approach.

By the way, the way FORTRAN compilers cope with this is that they first try to parse every statement as an assignment and only try parsing it other ways after that fails. -- Jmabel 17:34, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)

 * Note that, in C++ at least, you can refer to members of a class without the "class_name." in some circumstances (inside member functions). Also, constructions like char(x) are valid for casting variable types. So there is potential ambiguity between char as a cast, and char as a member function. I don't know about Javascript, but possibly it has something similar. -- DrBob 17:53, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

In a nutshell: reserving keywords results in fewer headaches for syntacticians, compiler/interpreter software engineers, maintenance programmers, and others. Reserved keywords make life simpler for all involved.

The long explanation: to generalize on the language-specific examples given Jmabel and DrBob, one important reason why keywords are reserved is to allow the language syntax to be extended without breaking old code. For any given language, it is often possible to write a non-standard compiler or interpreter that allows the use of reserved keywords as variable, method, or attribute names. But when and if the language syntax is extended, it may very well break your code. Reserved keywords are basically the language spec authors' telling you: "These keywords are part of the syntax, which may eventually be extended to use the keywords in new ways. We could say 'use these keywords as variable names at your own risk.' Instead, to make everyone's job easier, we're saying 'thou shalt not use these words as variable names at all.'"

A slight tangent: sometimes new reserved keywords are added to the language. This often does break old code, although the newly reserved keywords will help maintenance programmers quickly find and fix the problem. A real world example: in Python, the keywords as and None are currently part of the syntax according to the latest language spec. They are not yet reserved keywords, though they will be, eventually, by which point maintenance programmers will have to make sure that they aren't using any variables named as or None. • Benc • 00:07, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Tesla Coil as a school project
My school begun with this creativity fair thing... I suggested my group that we made a Tesla Coil, since hey, Tesla DOES deserve any kind of recognition, and it'd be nice to show people how important he was.

The problem is, we need a transformer and I'm not sure what exactly I'm needing here. What should be the power and the output voltage and current? The input must be 220V, and we're not planning to do anything big here. As long as the coil works, and as long as we can make experiments showing the energy transmission through distance (using fluorescent lights, for example), we'd have enough. Though, it'd be nice if the coil was safe enough to put our hand close to it.

Also, i'd like to know if we can put some glass bowl above it to give a plasma lamp effect. I've heard somewhere that these plasma lamps are nothing but a tesla coil with a bowl around, and if this is true, we could make it even more pleasent to the look.

But anyway, about the transformer, my physics teacher hasn't helped much about this aspect since he's having to ask other people, and this takes some time we don't have.

The transformers I could find already (I've asked for 5000V transformers, though this might be either too much or too few, so that's why I'm asking) are being extremely expensive (about 800 bucks), and I was thinking there could be a better option... Is it safe to make our own tranformer? If so, how should we proceed?

Well, that's pretty much what's worrying me right now, since we don't want it to be too expensive, but we do want something interesting.

Any help is appreciate. Thanks in advance. — Kieff | Talk 05:06, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

 * There's a good article on the subject here, that suggests you can use a flyback transformer from a CRT. I would give it a safety rating of 0/10.  If you touch it, it will knock you across the room and possibly kill you. --Heron 08:44, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Yes, I was afraid I'd have to end up using a flyback, which is too dangerous. Any other option besides that?   — Kieff | Talk 09:00, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

 * You can also use a pair of MOSFETs to drive the primary, as in this article. I tried this once, but it didn't work for me - I think I wound the secondary wrongly. --Heron 12:40, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Sterile Uterus
Is the inside of the uterus sterile? If so, how does it stay sterile if it is open at the cervix? Kusskeeper

No part of the human body is sterile. Mark Richards 23:59, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * That's true, and the reason it doesn't get full of nasty bugs is that even though it's technically "outside" the body, elements of the immune system such as antibodies and white blood cells are present and functioning there - just as they do in other regions "outside" of the body such as the gut and lungs.

 * So when a window is open, do you feel the entire house is "outside"? -- Jmabel 19:18, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)

The cavum uteri (inside of the uterus) is practically sterile due to various protective mechanisms. The commensal lactobacilli of the vagina produce lactic acid, and the cervix likewise is hostile to pathogens. Infection of the uterus occurs in endometritis (a rare complication of childbirth), and chlamydia infects the uterus before it can affect the Fallopian tubes to causes salpingitis and pelvic inflammatory disease. JFW | T@lk  16:12, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

A Doctor without licenses
In Reference desk on ja.wikipedia, A question was posted and no one knows the answer. please help us. The question is below;

 * Please tell me a name of a swindler in U.S., who had IQ 200 or 300. He joined the army as a doctor. Although he did not have any medical licenses in fact, he succeeded operations with referencing books. Later he was taken into a court because of arrogation, but he was adjudged not guilty with many supports who had been saved by his operations.

If you know him, answer on this page, I'll translate it into ja. Sketch 15:51, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It took awhile, but I think I've found him: The US television program The Pretender was based on a 1961 Tony Curtis film The Great Impostor, which in turn was based on "one of the world's greatest impersonators and hoaxters of the 1950's", a guy by the name of "Ferdinand Waldo Demara," (sometimes spelled "Demarra"). Here is an external link. func(talk) 16:56, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Frank Abagnale also pretended to be a doctor - but not in the military. He was the subject of the recent Catch Me If You Can. Rmhermen 21:06, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for your researches. I'll show these answers to the first questioner in ja.wp. - Sketch 06:44, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Cordell Hull and the Japanese
And the question is?

authors of the Samuel Taylor Coleridge article
Check out the history of that article. Mark Richards 23:59, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * If your question has to do with citing the article for a paper, see Citing Wikipedia. If it's purely for interest or other purposes, go to the Samuel Taylor Coleridge article as Mark suggests, and click on the link labeled "history" (it is probably in a tab at the top of the screen, depending on the layout you're viewing us in).  Jwrosenzweig 14:10, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Late 19th-Century England Etiquette
Good day,

I've been trying to find the etiquette of late 19-century hand-holding in England. More specifically, I'm looking to find out how a man was to take a women's hand or a woman to take the hand/arm of a man. I have searched books and the internet exhaustively and can find nothing specific in answer to my question.

If you have any answer at all, I would be much appreciative!

Sincerely, Searching

 * It would be nice to have some articles about prevailing etiquete in different times / places - our current one is kind of weak. Intrigue 17:36, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

differentiation between window xp and linux
You could check out the Windows XP and Linux articles as a start. More specificity would help to avoid a long and complex flamewar! Intrigue 17:36, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * You might also check Operating system advocacy. As a group, while Wikipedians probably skew towards open source OS's (partly because many of the early Wikipedians came out of the open source community), most of them are long past operating system flamewars (I hope...) --Robert Merkel 03:08, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

vodka etc - alcohol from potatoes or other complex carbohydrates
Okay, I know that the yeast we use for alcoholic fermentation transforms simple sugars into alcohol. I also know that it cannot do this with complex carbohydrates like starch. That is why when you make beer, you have to malt the barley (to make a long story short, it helps transform the starch in the barley into sugars the yeast can use). So, my question is, some vodka is made from potatoes - how is the potatoe starch made available to the yeast?? ike9898 14:02, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure, but maybe the complex carbohydrates are first treated by an enzyme that breaks it down into less complex units before the yeast is added?

 * According to they add either malted grain or enzymes from a packet to break down the potato starch. --Heron 16:28, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Another vodka question
I've seen vodkas made from potatoes, grain, and at least one that was made from grapes. So, what defines vodka? Is there something distinct about the process used to make it? There is a partial answer in the vodka article, but I'm not sure how this is different from clear rum. Why isn't clear rum considered sugarcane vodka? ike9898 14:15, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)
 * Vodka explains, A common property of all vodkas, compared to other spirits, is that before any flavouring is added, it is neutralized as far as possible. This is often done by filtering it through charcoal. --jpgordon {gab} 15:41, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Kerberos

 * Moved from Kerberos (protocol) — Matt 14:36, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Can anyone give me some more material about Kerberos Protocal? thanks! ligh@mails.gscas.ac.cn

 * Take a look at RFC 1411 1510 1964 2623 2712 2942 3129 3244. RFC could be found on http://www.ietf.org/rfc http://www.rfc-editor.org/ AnyFile 15:27, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Numbers Design
The numbers we use in the U.S.A. what place were they design at and when? And the naming of the numbers we use in the U.S.A. where were they named at and when?
 * Some places to start:
 * Arabic numerals
 * Decimal
 * English-language numerals
 * Names of numbers in English -[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 19:33, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for giving me that information but I still don't know where or when the numbers we use in the U.S.A. were design. Plus I don't know where or when the naming of the numbers we use in the U.S.A. happened. --anon

The set of numbers used throughout the Western world and much of the rest of the world as well (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9) are ultimately derived from Hindi numerals which came to us by way of Arabic numerals. You can find very detailed information for each of the digits: 0 (number), 1 (number), 2 (number), 3 (number), 4 (number), 5 (number), 6 (number), 7 (number), 8 (number), and 9 (number). func(talk) 19:13, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Generating a sine wave in a circuit
On a circuit, how do I generate a sine wave output signal using basic electronic components? — Kieff | Talk 06:28, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)

 * How basic do you want the components to be? -- Cyrius|✎ 16:29, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I dunno, nothing too expensive. It'll probably involve an IC, so I'd like to know where can I get it as well.   — Kieff | Talk 17:31, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)

 * Here's one based on a crystal and two transistors; this one uses a 555 timer IC and a filter IC, but is more versatile and conceptually simpler. You could order the components from somewhere like Digikey. -- DrBob 19:48, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * A 555 timer (without some rather messy filtering) will produce a square wave, not a sine wave. --ssd 01:20, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * The reason I want this is to produce a sine sound wave output. Here's a thought: the AC mains are sine waves. Is it possible to make use of this fact to produce a sine sound wave? How should I proceed then? Is it possible to make a circuit to decrease\increase the output frequency using this method?   — Kieff | Talk 20:05, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)

 * You could use mains, but it'll be pretty boring (a 50Hz or 60Hz hum), and could be quite dangerous. Shifting the frequency would not be easy at all. You could use your computer's soundcard to output sine waves with a simple program like this one. -- DrBob 19:18, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * There is no a straightforward to change from the mains frequence (50 Hz in Europe, 60 Hz in USA). You need a complex circuit. Actually I do not know how to make it. What I could thing is that is easier to obtain a multiple or a fraction of the starting frequence (harmonics. If you starts from 50 Hz 12.5 Hz 25 Hz 100 Hz 200 Hz. If you are starting from 60 Hz 15 Hz 30 Hz 120 Hz 240 Hz). AnyFile 15:12, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Looking for an completed banner image
Hey, im looking a complete image that i've seen on a Wikipedia page: Triple J, by Chuq. It's a banner that has a the front part cut off it, and i was hoping that someone may know or have the full banner. It's for a project im doing on Double J. Thanks!

Nia-maria

 * Unfortunately that is the full image as I got it - I believe a link is on Talk:Triple J somewhere, or maybe the articles info page. -- Chuq 05:57, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Pumice
Would it be possible to construct a boat or other seaworthy craft, using pumice or some similar rock? [[User:Rhymeless|Rhymeless | (Methyl Remiss)]] 23:00, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Well, I suppose so. Remember that the density of the building material is largely irrelevant (ships are, after all, made of steel).  Numerous caissons, and the mulberry harbours are/were built from concrete, and all floated very nicely thankyou.  But stone/concrete are rather inflexible, so a large vessel made from them is liable to snap in heavy sea conditions.  John Fader
 * More bizarrely, various civil engineering organisations sponsor annual concrete canoe competitions in which various university teams design, build a race concrete canoes. See for example -- Solipsist 06:50, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Well, I was thinking of how practical it might be, to make some sort of floating raft or platform, made from a latticework of (something. bamboo?) that would use pumice or some other buoyant stone for the joints.... In other words, pumice, like any other rock, wouldn't be especially convenient for such use, right? [[User:Rhymeless|Rhymeless | (Methyl Remiss)]] 04:23, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Then again, the more I think about that, the more it occurs to me that one might as well ditch the pumice altogether and make a bamboo raft. Of course, some enterprising wikipedian ought to make that concrete canoe article. [[User:Rhymeless|Rhymeless | (Methyl Remiss)]] 07:32, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

difference betweeen indian american and britain english.
hello, i am intrested in knowing about the quality of english as an language,my concerns are which is the standard english language spoken, is it britain english or american english?,because i heard about u.k english is considered as the standard english used in world, and american english is the slangest english,i just want to know that is that true.It would be great if you tell me where do indian english lie in all the three. hemant. you can mail me on khardehemant@rediffmail.com

 * Are you trying to start a flame war? ;-) Both UK and US English enjoy wide currency throughout the world. In many nations like India, UK English tends to be the "flavor" (or "flavour") of English taught. I'm not going to respond to your question regarding "quality", as it is obviously a very subjective matter of opinion. I will say this, however: I love listening to Indians speaking English, they give the language a beautiful lilt. Here is something interesting. func(talk) 14:16, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * See American and British English differences. [[User:Poccil|Peter O. (Talk)]] 16:36, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

 * See also Indian English. The dialect article has some discussion that is probably relevant. As far as I can tell, you can't really state scientifically that one dialect is actually of higher quality than another. If you meant "quality" in terms of properties of the language and not in terms of which is "better", I would recommend reading the articles for American English and British English (and also just English language).
 * From strictly personal experience, I can tell you that American English definitely seems (at least officially) to be more open to accepting slang terms than, say, French, but I don't know if anyone has ever done a detailed analysis of British and American slang. [[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 17:16, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * And no English is significantly more slangy than some of what is spoken in the East End of London. -- Jmabel 06:23, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)

Homeopathy
What is homeopathy ? Jeanettesundby

 * See homeopathy. HTH, [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 16:06, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

 * Meelar, you're too quick :-) JFW | T@lk  16:08, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Also see Emperor's New Clothes. True homeopathically diluted preparations are so demonstrably only water used as placebo that public acceptance can only be maintained by attacking those who dare to state the obvious. Alteripse 16:27, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Mathematical congresses
What happened on the 5th international maths congress in Cambridge? I'm interested in B. Russel-related informations particularly. Gubbubu 16:26, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Gubbubu 16:26, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

lists the 5th International Congresses of Mathematicians held at Cambridge, England in (1912), but I found only tidbits on Bertrand Russell being there, maybe an email to one of the contacts at might help? -Wikibob | Talk 12:01, 2004 Oct 11 (UTC)

norway
You might start at Norway, though it would really help if you asked us a specific question! -[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 17:58, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Windows error / MS-DOS multiple hard disks
Okay, I have a bit of a problem. The problem is this: My 3 year old Dell Dimension 4800 (256mb RAM, 2 hard drives totaling 100 gb, Nvidia GeForce 2, Windows XP service pack 1 (upgrade from WinMe)) has died on me. Whenever I boot Windows and try to log on, it loads my saved prefs and then logs off before it's even done logging on. I am now running it off of a DOS boot disk made on a Windows 95 Compaq Presario 2200 from 1997. Unfortunately, DOS refuses to recognize the second hard drive on the Dell, or its CD-ROM/RW/DVD-ROM drive (E and D drives, respectively.) So, I have two questions:

1. Is my WinXP error a known bug, and if so, how can I fix it?

2. How does one add drives to DOS when running off a boot disk?

Thanks --216.195.195.211 18:53, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * 1. who knows. Something is corrupt, a reinstall of XP will fix it.
 * 2. here's the scenario - when compaq made your winME machine, they put a FAT32 volume as the boot drive. Then you updated ME to XP, and the drive remained fat32.  Then you added the second drive, and formatted it, and XP made it NTFS.  Now you've emergency-booted back to win95.  win95 understands fat32, but not NTFS, so you can see the boot disk, but not the other one.  The only solution to that is to boot into winNT, win2000, or winXP.  The reason you can't see the CD drive is that win95 doesn't automatically mount them - you need to find the (device specific) driver file (usually a .SYS file) and install it (in config.sys) and then run mscdex with the appropriate options.  All rather complicated.  Better, you need a winXP boot disk, or (best) a bootable winXP install disk.
 * - John Fader

 * There are actually TWO computers involved here. I am now emergency booting DOS 7.1, which can read NTFS and should solve my problem.  My intent here was mostly to discover if anyone had seen this problem before. 208.193.132.253 17:18, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC) (I am the original poster, school comps)

What do you actually want to do? I assume: 1. You want to recover the data on the second drive. 2. You want to repair WinXP. Reinstalling XP will solve both problems. If for some reason you can't do this, using a CD based version of Linux (like Knoppox) would allow you to read the NTFS drive (but not write to it) so you could recover the data to the first drive (assuming you have space) and then format the drive to FAT32 or whatever. You could use the opportunity to install Linux if the problem is that you don't have and don't want to buy winXP. Mark Richards 17:01, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Linux is a good idea, but I'd rather not screw with multibooting right now. I think at this point I'm just gonna either hire a repairman or take out the NTFS drive and reinstall XP, then reinstall the NTFS drive. Thanks all! 208.193.132.253 17:18, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I think Mark means use Knoppix to boot the PC - it will automatically detect all your drives, and allow you to read them. If you have a copy of winXP, then the best thing is to reinstall. Intrigue 17:51, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Yep, that's what I'm gonna do if I can just find my XP cd... 208.193.132.253 16:32, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Title of a cockroach adventure game
I remember some years ago of playing a demo game where you were a cockroach. I think the story resembled something like Kafka's The Metamorphosis, but being specific about turning into a cockroach, but I'm not sure about this.

All I remember is that the game was point-and-click based (you had to guide the cockroach around), and the backgorunds were realistic. I remember there were nasty places, like a dead rat full of maggots or a rotten pizza.

Anyone know the title of such game? Thanks   — Kieff | Talk 20:04, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)
 * I remember reading about such a game and grumbling because my computer didn't meet the minimum requirements. I think it was called "Bad Mojo". [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|(talk)]] 20:10, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes!! That's the game! Thank you very much :D   — Kieff | Talk 20:29, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

I wrote a brief article at Bad Mojo. Intrigue 23:28, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Rather coincidentally, this game is being re-released for some reason Cvaneg 18:48, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Caloric value of an apple
I was wondering today how many calories are contained in an apple of average weight. I looked at Nutritional information about the apple, but it didn't really help. Anyone have a rough figure? 147.9.159.224 04:11, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * It says it right there - 59 k-calories/100 grams. (in nutrion, a "calorie" is a what is called a "kilocalorie" in every other area of science). Therefore, a mediuam sized (138 g) apple has 81 calories (kilocalories). →Raul654 04:20, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * Per Calorie, a nutritional Calorie - capital C - is a kilocalorie. Capital-C Calories are normally used in North America, where "kilocalorie" is not used outside science classrooms. Sharkford 20:35, 2004 Oct 11 (UTC)

First Monterey International Pop Festival
I found the following in the article namespace (First Monterey International Pop Festival), but it probably belongs here. If anyone answers it should probably cc'ed by email, as I doubt he would find it here otherwise. andy 07:31, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I'm not here by mistake. I'm trying to hunt down any information I can find about Scott McKenzie, who was at the Festival and who gave the world "San Francisco", the Festival's antum. I spelled anthum wrong but am unable to backspace to fix it. Anyway, I am totally consumed by the Festival and the stars who made it great. I'm also trying to link up with information on the new Mamas & Papas who briefly prformed in the 90s with Scott McKenzie. I'm hoping there is an album I can buy with him in the group. I hope that one day this space will be completely filled in with all kinds of news and photos of the Festival. I can't wait. I can be reached at my email address, . Thanks for letting me sit here typing in lieu of reading fascinating anecdotes on the Festival. --24.26.204.142 05:12, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * That article is under Monterey Pop Festival. Adam Bishop 21:50, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Old Zurich War

from VfD:

Does Pumpie actually know what he's trying to translate? I doubt it. Delete or clean up. --Voyager ch 19:43, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Why encourage? I do like "In 1436, the count Friedrich VII of Toggenburg starved." --jpgordon {gab} 19:51, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Content is worth keeping. The article does need work to turn the transation into something properly understandable. It needs attention rather than deleting. Have looked at User_talk:Pumpie and he has promised to stop just using Babelfish and to avoid grammatical errors in any future translations. MarkS 20:27, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Horrifically difficult to understand but currently the best that Wikipedia can do on the subject, which clearly deserves an article.--Tomheaton 22:05, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep if someone translates the translation; I doubt it will happen. Delete if no one does.  Send to Clean Up with a note about what's needed and an indication to VfD it again if still in Babelfishian in a month. Geogre 22:17, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Currently the article is unintelligible. MarkS is right that Pumpie has promised to avoid grammatical errors in future translations, but I don't believe he can stick to that promise. Reading his own user page comments, it is clear that he has a limited grasp of English grammar. jguk 23:21, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * It's not just grammatical inaccuracies, it's factual accuracy as well. Translating from other languages means understanding that just because a word looks somewhat like an English word doesn't mean that it has the same meaning. "Starb" means "died", not "starved". And a knowledge of both languages' idioms is also necessary; "lösen" certainly means "solve" in some contexts, but not this one. (Babelfish is quite biased toward technological terminology, obviously.) I'd think that to translate any language into English, one should know at least enough English to recognize that what was posted was gibberish. --jpgordon {gab} 00:32, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Agree with Jpgordon: Delete. It needed translation before, and it still needs translation.  A machine cannot translate an article.  It can translate a menu or a taxi guide, but that's about it. Geogre 04:56, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I cleaned it up a bit.. Will try to see if I can fix it to acceptability before deletion.....[[User:Rhymeless|Rhymeless | (Methyl Remiss)]] 06:01, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Keep. Notable topic, Encyclopedic. Fix, don't delete. If you voted delete here, please review the vfd guidelines.Kim Bruning 14:52, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Keep, but. Keep an article at this location, but translate from scratch. Kim Bruning 22:20, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Kim, I would have voted for delete in its original translation. In fact, I would have supported a speedy.  The original translation IS patent nonsense, they are intelligible words that together do not give any recognizable meaning.  This is what happens when people translate using Bablefish, and should be intensely discouraged.  As Geogre said, a machine can not translate an article.  It is much easier, and faster, to list it on the Pages needing translation into English and let the good folks there take care of it.  Having done translations for a while now (in Real Life and on Wiki) it is MHO that a bad translation is worse than no translation.  -Vina 20:51, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Vina: if I understand correctly, Pages needing translation into English is for en.wikipedia articles containing non-English text, whereas Category:Translation requests is for requests for translation from another Wikipedia. Pages needing translation into English would be appropriate if User:Pumpie were just pasting in the German article text -- but I think that even that would be easier to deal with than the current situation. Pnot 21:03, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Okay, I can agree with that. Kim Bruning 22:20, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Delete [Edit: vote changed after User:Gdr's rewrite] Was wavering, but now convinced by jpgordons's argument: if it's just a decent article in an abysmally ugly translation, then maybe it counts as better than nothing, but the danger of factual errors in machine-translated articles seems too great. If it's just ugly English, then an English-speaker could perhaps clean it up. If a bilingual German/English speaker has to go through fact-checking it against the original article, then what the heck is the point? As has been pointed out several times, it would be easier to translate the original article from scratch. So wouldn't it be easier all round for Pumpie to create a substub and put it on Category:Translation requests? Pnot 20:59, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep Just because it was a bad translation does not alter the fact that this was a significant event that we had no article on.  Names, dates and locations (who, when, where) are all accurate.  It would not be easier for me to create an article from scratch, and even if it were, deleting would still be the wrong thing to do.  Far better to create a sparse stub than delete it.   The Steve  02:47, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)
 * OK, I'm finished blowing off steam. I really hate bad translations -- it's a particular bug up my particular ass. The article is improving significantly. We've got two different issues here. User:Pumpie should knock off just dumping Babelfish translations into Wikipedia. They cause more harm than good. But some of the articles he's put in this way are pretty interesting (Swiss history is fascinating), including this one. I do believe he's been shown the error of his ways, at any rate. Perhaps automatic translations like this should be handled like non-English articles: properly translate within two weeks or *whoosh*. Change to Keep.--jpgordon {gab} 03:30, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure that it is improving. Certainly the grammar is improving, but it's really a demonstration of why machine translation + human cleanup without looking at original is not sufficient for a reasonable translation. For example, look at this revision by User:Rhymeless. He's changed "the inhabitants of Zurich continued to persist with their free alliance right" to "... continued to persist with their aims of freedom". Reads much better, and no disrespect intended to Rhymeless, but it's wrong. The German article reads "freien Bündnisrecht", which is their "right to free alliance", that is, to ally with whomever they choose -- significantly different from an "aim of freedom". My worry is that, while it's easy for people to clean up the English, checking all the facts against the original article is very labour-intensive. User:Thesteve, I didn't say it would be easier to create the article from scratch, I said it would be easier to translate it from scratch, and I stand by this -- multiplying the time it took me to fact-check "aims of freedom" by the size of the article gives a much longer time than a from-scratch translation would take, even with my level of German.
 * I admit I'm torn by the whole Pumpie saga. Maybe it is better to have a somewhat incorrect, thoroughly ungrammatical article than none at all. But the thought of the effort required to clean these things up boggles the mind: even after admirable efforts by Rhymeless and others, the article is still patent nonsense in places. I would far, far rather translate an article from German at Pumpie's request than deal with these monstrosities on a frequent basis. Perhaps a few of us could approach Pumpie with an offer to translate German articles for him if he'll consent to put them on Category:Translation requests rather than Babelfishing them? It takes time for me to translate accurately from German, but not nearly as much time as it takes to debate machine-translated articles on VfD.
 * I consider it rude for Pumpie to continue this behaviour when he's stated on his talk page that he'll stop, but I assure you that I'm voting on the merits of the article itself rather than on an attempt to curb his behaviour. If the patent nonsense goes, I'll change my vote, but I'm starting to think we need a policy for dealing with this kind of thing. Not sure about jpgordon's idea: certainly an improvement on the current situation, but I still think that human translation from source is the simplest and best way to go.
 * (Apologies for the long rant.) Pnot 06:43, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Edit: after a look through Pumpie's recent edits, it seems to me that I was being unfair and he has cleaned up his act since User:Voyager ch's request on 11 October: he seems to be copying across (mainly) the numerical parts of geographical articles from other Wikipedias, which aren't so subject to a translation error. Far more productive than the previous babe fest, and I hope he continues in this vein -- he's certainly industrious :-). Pnot 08:07, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Apologies for my mistake there. My German is fair, not great. I mostly tried to stay away from concepts I might not be able to translate properly (thus why I don't translate articles from other Wikipedias). I didn't just try to clean it up from the English version blindly, however, and would appreciate your input on any other improper changes I may have made, if only for a sense of where I might have been lacking. [[User:Rhymeless|Rhymeless | (Methyl Remiss)]] 08:47, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Sorry if I caused any offence: I was just illustrating how hard it is to clean up a machine translation while retaining accuracy, and I don't think I could have done better without spending a great deal of time on it. Anyway, it seems it's all moot now :-). Pnot 21:19, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I rewrote the article, using material from Old Swiss Confederacy, History of Switzerland, Zürich and the web. Not all of the original detail has been replaced, but it's much better now. I also renamed the article to match our article on the city, which is at Zürich. I hope the rename doesn't cause too much trouble. I don't think there can be any remaining question about whether or not to keep it: should I just remove the VFD header from the article? Gdr 16:49, 2004 Oct 14 (UTC)

 * Good Work. Keep obviously--Tomheaton 18:57, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Keep. And please, Voyager ch, do not list such articles on VfD, put them on Cleanup instead! Lupo 19:30, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Wonderful! The Gordian knot is cut. Thank you, Gdr, the new article looks great. The vote changed to Keep, of course. Pnot 21:19, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Keep. However, I would like to point out to all concerned that:
 * People can request translation at Translation into English, and the response is generally pretty good.
 * Anyone who wants a Babelfish translation of an article in the German-language Wikipedia can get it by (duh) going to the German-language Wikipedia and using Babelfish, so the creation of these does not use service.
 * Insofar as this ends up effectively fast-tracking certain translations that are probably no more deserving of the effort than others, it is more annoying than helpful.
 * Jmabel|Talk 23:01, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)

 * Provided that this is genuinely real history  keep. This is an interesting little bit of European history that I'd never heard of before.  And I had no idea that any of the now central cantons had ever left, let alone been expelled from Switzerland. --Quintucket 23:51, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

end moved discussion

WP:MilHist Assessment
This article has some details, and I'm happy to see that it exists and isn't a stub. But it definitely still needs work. An infobox would be wonderful, and some organization and different sections would begin to push this towards B-class range. Separate out Background, Aftermath, and the War itself, if there is enough content to do so. And, if possible, expand in general. Finally, I know it's somewhat nitpicky, and I apologize for that, but the conclusion sentence/paragraph sounds like something from a high school history paper, not a proper encyclopedia/academic text. The sentiment is valuable and interesting, but the way it is said needs to be reworked. LordAmeth 17:39, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

contradictory numbers reported
This article doesn't declare the same number of soldiers as the Battle of St. Jakob an der Birs. I'm tempted to say that the most modest estimate is the right one, but I'm no historian so I won't edit this article. Ruijoel 14:55, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
 * the German article has 40,000 and 1,500. That probably reflects the range of reasonable estimates, and the precise numbers will depend on the immediate source we are using. As long as we say "about" or "roughly" (20,000-40,000 / 1,500-1,600), this isn't a big problem. Of course it would be nice to have a more detailed discussion of these estimates anyway. dab (𒁳) 16:32, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Old Zurich War