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Talk:Ichiro Suzuki

Lowest hit total of career
Ichiro has had less than 206 hits in a season, so "lowest total of his career" was changed to "lowest total of his career to date". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.14.17.129 (talk) 15:39, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Criticism of "rookie" status
Some sportswriters criticized his official "rookie" status, saying that his years of experience in the Japanese "major leagues" gave him an unfair advantage over other rookie players who had little or no prior major league experience.

I don't know if I actually object to this (the statement is true, I suppose), or if I just hate seeing it. Other winners include: Jackie Robinson (1947; the first RotY award, also known as the Jackie Robinson Award), Don Newcombe (1949), Sam Jethroe (1950), Willie Mays (1951), Joe Black (1952), and Jim Gilliam (1953) all had years of Negro League experience, and Hideo Nomo (1995) and Kazuhiro Sasaki (2000) were both veterans of the Japanese league. In Major League Baseball, "rookie" refers *only* to MLB experience, and someone with experience in other leagues winning the MLB RotY award isn't a new precedent.

Delete? Counter? Cite? Demong 02:42, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Is this true?
Continuing the custom he began in Japan, he uses his given name on the back of his uniform, becoming the first and so far only player in Major League Baseball to do so.

Is that true? I'm sure I've seen it before. I have no idea why I would remember this, but I'm almost certain Vida Blue had his first name on his jersey. Adam Bishop 17:38, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * My understanding of this was that he is a pitchman for Nissan in Japan, and since Suzuki is a competitor of Nissan, he decided to play under his given name only. John

 * No, it was because of the number of Suzukis on his NPB team. Suzuki is as common a surname in Japan as Brown or Jones is here.

 * I know he's the only player whom MLB has approved using his first name. It's possible Vida wore his first name (as a Charlie Finley stunt), but I don't think it was for very long. I know Finley tried to get Blue to change his first name to True.

Wnalyd 05:40, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I totally agree with Wnalyd.Hrkoew 10:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

This article lists a number of players, including Blue, who have had their first name, nickname, hometown, etc. on their back. (The corpulent John Kruk used to say he had his picture on his back; he was number 8.)

Can we document the MLB approval for "Ichiro"? Rdikeman 13:09, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

Vida Blue had his firt name on is back when playing for the Giants

Deleted some redundant words for clarity

Ichiro
I don't know a lot about baseball, but is it really a good idea to make "Ichiro" redirect here? A simple search for the word would reveal that it is not a particularly rare Japanese male given name (Ichirō Hatoyama, for example)...elvenscout742 13:49, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

 * I've turned the redirect into a disambiguation page. —Lowellian (reply) 04:40, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

The childhood section seems ridiculous. Is there any significance to it?

 * I can see how; it explains his rigorous practice schedule and how he got to be the ballplayer he is. 69.4.200.122 00:18, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Poor grammar and not completely unbiased
"Because of the incorrect interpretation ("I want to beat South Korea so badly, that the South Koreans won't want to play Japan for another 30 years." [1]), the Korean media criticized Ichiro for reportedly saying before the tournament."

This sentance(s) really needs some grammar and syntax work. Also the citation (and other sources) offer no support for the claim that the statement was interpreted incorrectly. I have rephrased the statement to give it a more neutral POV and to reflect the citation better.

Kyobonitsuki 09:40, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

It was an incorrect interpretation. ESPN did a terrible job with translations. If you've seen the video he's joking about things with his tongue in cheek.

「戦った相手が『向こう３０年は日本に手は出せないな』という感じで勝ちたいと思う」

Roughly it translates to...

"I would like to win in ways to make our opponents think, 'we got 30 years before we catch up to Japan'."

And he said that while laughing.

Ichiro's alleged hitting problems in 2006
I removed the whole section: ==2006 Hitting Problems== After starting the season 1-5 (.200), Ichiro rebounded and was batting .353 after the first 4 games of the season. However, Ichiro struggled and was batting .177 by April 18th. He finished April with a .287 average. His average dipped to .260 on May 5th, but two 4 hit games in May and 1 in April brought his average up to .327 by May 28th. It has turned out (by May 28th) to be an up and down season for Ichiro.

The problem with this is that having a section gives the idea that there is something particularly bad about this season; however, if you look at his stats (which typically go up and down as a season progresses anyway), he is actually doing pretty well, and well en-route to finishing with stats just as good as his rookie year and certainly 2005. Currently his .335 BA is 5th in the AL, and his OBP is also good.

The section also contains and encourages speculation. After the season is over and we reflect on his year, it may turn out that his performance was his worst so far, in which case we can make a note of it, but certainly not an entire section unless he turns out to really stink the rest of the year. --C S (Talk) 12:48, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree with this. No need to guess at history before it unfolds. Saw another Ichiro record on ESPN.com today (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6615) where it reads "Player News from ROTOWIRE --

Jul. 26 -- News: Suzuki recorded his 1,275th career hit Tuesday, the most hits in any six-year period of anyone in major league history." This is not one of his most notable records, maybe it deserves inclusion?

 * I saw an article in the Seattle PI on that and Ichiro commented that breaking Wade Boggs record (prior record holder for most hits in six consecutive years in MLB) "is a very big deal". Now, of course, baseball is infamous for many meaningless records, but this one made the news and Ichiro, who is not in the habit of exaggerating his accomplishments, considers it important.  So I think it should be ok to include.  --C S (Talk) 21:13, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Right field or center field?
Which is it? The opening paragraph says center field but the box at the right says right field. I didn't realize he switched from right to center late in the season. Is that a permanent move?

 * He switched so Snelling could play right field. It appears that Ichiro is ok with playing center next year and Hargrove wants it too .  But who knows?  It will depend on what the team will look like.  I would say it's safe to say center for now, but I wouldn't say it's really official until next year.  --C S (Talk) 18:29, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I've switch the info in the infobox and categories from "right fielder" to "center fielder" as for a while now, all the articles I read about Mariners has him mentioned as playing center for the coming season. Also, the roster moves and acquisitions pretty much cement this. --C S (Talk) 22:53, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Another person has changed it back to right fielder twice. This is ridiculous. Anybody that actually follows the Mariners would know he is the center fielder. Any sports article nowadays that mentions Ichiro's position describes him as center fielder, for example,. Jose Guillen is the right fielder now. --C S (Talk) 16:30, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll stop with one more ref. This one has several paragraphs talking about Ibanez and Guillen having to adjust to Ichiro in center field. --C S (Talk) 09:42, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, I guess I can't stop as an anonymous editor insists on changing the position again to RF. This time s/he cites Ichiro's ESPN profile as evidence. Obviously, to anybody that has read anything I wrote above, the clear conclusion is that the profile is outdated. Nonetheless, in the hope that the anon actually is reading the talk page, let me point out that the Seattle Mariners official MLB site has Ichiro listed as CF in his profile. The evidence is clear; one outdated ESPN profile cannot change that. Additionally, given the lack of discussion, I am going to revert all such changes, as continuing to change valid information without discussion can only be regarded as an effort to compromise Wikipedia, i.e. vandalism. --C S (Talk) 18:58, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Ichiro's personal scandals
The Whiting book also documents the scandal reported widely in the Japanese press (but almost completely ignored in the U.S.) of Ichiro being secretly recorded "cavorting" with a woman-other-than-his-wife in a hotel room in San Francisco several years ago. It was a major story in Japan and was reportedly a major factor in why Ichiro's relationship with the media, especially the Japanese media, isn't so harmonious. Shouldn't mention of this be in the article? Cla68 02:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Probably. But there isn't much about his personal life, so it's possible that this one incident could be given undue weight.  I would suggest writing more about him first, before mentioning any such scandals.  --C S (Talk) 19:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The incident was very widely reported on in Japan, and has significantly affected Ichiro's relationship with the media, which, in turn, affects his public image, which is significant because he's a celebrity. If I get ahold of the Whiting book that talks about it, I may add a mention of it to the article while keeping in mind the undue weight rule. Cla68 03:25, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Fangraphs
This is part of a larger discussion, which I do not mean to start here, but just as an fyi (since I have been asked to explain) and not as a request for action the reason that I have sought to have Fangraphs included here is that it has unique categories of information. Specifically, Fangraphs, uniquely, has hitters' 1B, BB%, K%, BB/K, ISO, BABIP, RC, RC/27, GB/FB, GB%, FB%, IFFB%, HR/FB, IFH%, BUH%, GB, FB, LD, IFFB, Balls, Strikes, Pitches, IFH, BU, BUH, WPA, -WPA, +WPA, BRAA, REW, pLI, phLI, PH, WPA.LI, and Clutch. Fangraphs also provides some spring training stats, and Bill James, CHONE, Marcel, and ZIPS projections. It has a game log, play log, compare players feature, news articles, and unique graphical presentations. --Epeefleche 07:45, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Statistics in Japan
The Statistics in Japan section was deleted and then reverted; before there are any more I just wanted to comment: I agree with the revert and think it should stand. An encyclopedia article about a baseball player who first played professionally in Japan, not to mention played there for nine seasons (over half his career so far), should include statistics from that part of his career. Removing them is very US-chauvinist. — Demong talk 07:41, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

 * This has nothing to do with being "chauvinistic" (which doesn't apply here). Statistics are mentioned specifically in WP:EL.  I created the template for Japanbaseball, so i can confirm that the site does indeed have that information. //Tecmobowl 11:11, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Chauvinism means "zealous or excessive patriotism"; it is not synonymous with male-chauvinism. What I meant is that this is an article about Ichiro, not about Ichiro in America.

 * However, I see your point now. His US statistics are not listed either.  If Neier feels that the Japanese awards should be in the article, he should integrate them into the Career in Japan section. — Demong talk 21:20, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

 * I reverted it, and did so again, because the external linked site does not have the information which was deleted. Namely, there is nothing about his gold gloves, best-nine, or other awards. Neier 13:34, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Just to clarify, I did understand the comment regarding chauvinism and it had nothing to do with my edits. Quite simply, statistics for athletes, when used in this manner, do not belong in wiki.  His japanese awards and career are VERY important and deserve proper attention in the content portions of the article. //Tecmobowl 15:05, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Tecmo Banned Indefinitely. FYI--Tecmo has been banned indefinitely for repeated violations of Wiki policy.--Epeefleche 01:30, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

 * I've reverted your striking through of his remarks. This is not accepted practice.  The reasons for banning are not related to this article or this discussion.  In any case, Tecmobowl was making some good points here and the whole matter was resolved amicably, so there was no need to bring this up here.  --C S (Talk) 09:19, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Pagemove Ichiro Suzuki -> Ichiro (baseball player)
I don't agree with this change at all. His name is Ichiro Suzuki. It's a common name, but there are no articles on anyone else named Ichiro Suzuki, and if there were it would make more sense for the article to be named Ichiro Suzuki (baseball player). The edit summary says "Because he is normally referred to as Ichiro", which I don't think is a good reason. Should the Louis Armstrong article be renamed Satchmo? Anyone have a compelling reason why I shouldn't change it back? — Demong talk 21:04, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

 * I don't agree with it either. The only rationale for keeping this page at Ichiro (baseball player) is that this is the common name for him.  While that is true, perhaps a comparison is helpful here.  "A-Rod" is also the common name for Alex Rodriguez, but A-Rod redirects to Alex Rodriguez.  A good reason for not having these players nicknames used as the article name and location is that they are just as commonly known by their legal names.  Most media like newspapers, magazines, and online media (e.g. ESPN.com) will in fact often refer to Ichiro as "Ichiro Suzuki" or "Suzuki" (e.g.  ) and A-Rod as "Alex Rodriguez" or "Rodriguez" (e.g. []).  There are some exceptional cases that have their articles at their nicknames, e.g. Jackie Robinson and Babe Ruth.  But the reason these are exceptions is that they are always referred to this way.  Many people don't even know Babe Ruth's real name (it's not too hard to guess Jackie Robinson's name).

 * One thing to keep in mind is that we are an encyclopedia. Sure, fans like to use nicknames, and sportswriters  will often follow suit.  But there should be a very compelling reason to name an article like a fan would, rather than using the official name.  Such a compelling reason would be, as in the case of Babe Ruth, to avoid confusion to the reader and save editors trouble with linking to the article.  Such a reason does not exist here.  Nobody will be confused, and having worked on baseball articles here and observed what goes on, I don't think anybody finds it hard to keep in mind that links should go to Alex Rodriguez or Ichiro Suzuki.  --C S (Talk) 03:29, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure whether the change was good or bad, but it should have at least been discussed first. I mean, I'm all for being bold. However, a consensus on this first would have been a good idea. I was sorely tempted to undo the move, on general principles, but figured that would be like the original move, so let it be. For what that's worth -Ebyabe 15:53, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

 * I was a bit bolder than Ebyabe and tried to move it back; except, since the original move was to "Ichiro (Baseball Player)", the subsequent redirect that corrected the case made it impossible to revert back without an admin, and probably requires WP:RM. The current page name is against the policy in Naming conventions (people), so, the (re)correction may be speediable; but, I doubt it. Neier 16:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Irrelevant and misleading episode
The episode in which Ichiro mentioned "Korea smells like garlic" is cited in the story about the World Baseball Classic (WBC), and is used to explain the anger of Korean players against Ichiro. However, this episode is being misunderstood, relevant to neither the WBC nor Ichiro's career, and therefore should not be placed here whether or not Korean players actually became angry about it.

Firstly, the Ichiro's remark does not refer to Koreans and it is hard to believe that Ichiro had any intention to disrespect Koreans. Rather, it is natural to take the comment as it plainly and objectively explained the smell of public spaces in Korea - possibly at an airport where he arrived. As Westerners who visit Japan notice the smell of miso especially in confined public spaces, it is also true that Korea has its unique smell originating from kimchi and garlic.

Secondly, it lacks any evidence that Ichiro said it. The only source is the Korean article ([9]), which itself refers to what Korean mass medium/media believed Ichiro had said. Without a citation, there is little reason that the comment, which must have been mentioned in Japanese if Ichiro actually had said it, still conveys the original meaning and his intentions. In fact, there is not a single Japanese primary source that tells this story.

Thirdly, from both aforementioned reasons, the response by Korean players cannot justify itself. It can be safely said that Korean players, or before that, the Korean public including mass media, invented or interpreted the comment without having reasons to do so in such a manner. Additionally, the comment was said to have been made in 1997, according to Source [9]. It is nine years before the WBC took place. The Wikipedia article explains this in a misleading manner saying that "Ichiro also commented prior to the first game." All in all, the Korean reaction is off-the-context, not justifiable, and not more than resentment based on the rumor spreading prior to the WBC.

I propose that the whole description relating to the remark "Korea smells like garlic" be deleted from the Ichiro Suzuki page unless an evidence about the remark is found and Ichiro's intention becomes clear. Otherwise, the possibility that the remark, claimed to have been stated by Ichiro, has been distorted and misunderstood should be fairly explained. Hrkoew 09:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I removed the line. It was uncited. Cla68 20:50, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

 * That stuff was pretty pointless. Good riddance.  --C S (Talk) 16:06, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Ichiro.jpg
How about a less effeminate picture there? Maybe you think that's stupid, and that it's just a natural early part of a throwing motion, but come on, he's a pro baseball player, he deserves a more manly pose.

If you are mentioning about the second picture, isn't he doing calisthenic stretching? Hrkoew 23:44, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

 * As an Ms fan who has watched Ichiro play since he started playing on this continent: that's a perfectly good picture of Ichiro. — Demong talk 03:14, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Ichiro --> Suzuki?
Per the recent discussion on moving this page to another name, I believe discussion should take place before being bold and systematically changing "Ichiro" to "Suzuki" in the article. This will undoubtedly be somewhat contentious. --C S (Talk) 15:04, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It should stay "Ichiro", not "Suzuki". The name of the article is Ichiro Suzuki, because the name of the subject is Ichiro Suzuki; but within the article, use the name by which he is most commonly referred to.67.40.31.115 00:02, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

 * The odd away-team sportscaster calls him Suzuki, but 99% of the time he's Ichiro (when normally a surname only might be used). — Demong talk 05:09, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Better picture
Could we find a better picture of Ichiro? This one doesn't look very good and the color is off. --Aquagreen (talk) 21:48, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

name on jersey
Why does Ichiro wear Ichiro on his jersey instead of Suzuki? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.164.215.130 (talk) 08:47, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

 * Taken straight from the article, "It was during the 1994 season that he began to use his given name, "Ichiro" instead of his family name, "Suzuki" on the back of his uniform. Suzuki is the second most common family name in Japan, and his manager introduced the idea as a publicity stunt to help create a new image for what had been a relatively weak team, as well as a way to distinguish their rising star. Initially, Ichiro disliked the practice and was embarrassed by it; "Ichiro" was a household name by the end of the season and he was flooded with endorsement offers." Jackal4 (talk) 19:07, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

3000 hit "record"
It says in the 2008 season that Ichiro became the youngest player to reach 3000 hits combined. However, the record that he allegedly broke was 34 years, 8 months, 1 day (as stated on the page), yet Ichiro was 34 years, 9 months, 7 days old when he reached 3000 hits, so he didn't break the record at all. Why is this listed as a record when the same information on this page clearly contradicts that claim? 129.78.64.102 (talk) 22:51, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

He will get his 4,000 combined hit sometime in the 2012 season. He has 1278 hits in japan baseball and 2,606 in MLB. His total going into the season is 3,884. He only needs 116 hits for number 4,000 a feat that will happen in June or July 2013. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.253.155.86 (talk) 03:20, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Career Stats
There is one column missing...the totals don't add up. For exemple, it says career batting average is .378, but it's .333. The .378 is the On-base average. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.82.41.50 (talk) 10:48, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Ejected
He was just ejected against the Jays, this has to be a first. It was also the first Mariners ejection of the season. Worth inserting into article?

Wait why is his number 51?
The article used to say that he wanted the same number that he had in Japan, and that he wrote a letter to Randy Johnson to ask if he could have it. Now the article says he had no preference and that the M's just randomly issued him 51, which I seriously doubt. I think the original seems more likely, does any one actually know which it is? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hasleberry (talk • contribs) 04:05, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

His orginal number was 51 from his tenture in Japan. When he arrived in the US, the Mariners offered him 51, but Ichiro was pressured to wear because he knew 51 belonged to another Mariners great, Randy Johnson. Ichiro eventually worn the uniform, but offered to call Johnson saying he won't "disowned" or bring shame to his number.Karatemanchan37 (talk • contribs) 22:02, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

He will be wearing 15 for the Yankees. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.60.168.132 (talk) 22:33, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * # 15 is retired by the Yankees, so this is inaccurate. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:52, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Lede needs ref for trade
However, with so many edits going on, someone should wait to add that methinks. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 23:41, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The lead does not need a reference to the trade. Leads are supposed to be reference-free as a matter of course, as the lead summarizes the body, and the body should contain the reference. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:51, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree. Leads should summarize the teams (and corresponding years if desired) a player played with a team. They do not need to provide specifics about a trade, intricacies of a draft, etc. unless it was something vital to understanding the subject article. The details of any trades should be provided in the body. And yes, there are lots of edits going on -- but only info. from good sources should be used, and used at the appropriate time. Zepppep (talk) 00:05, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Ichiro as a Nintendo Item Programmer
Something needs to be said about Ichiro's career in Nintendo's Mario Kart Item Programming. He's there in a lot of Mario Karts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.208.51.247 (talk) 19:40, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Ichiro's birthplace and hometown
In Japan, Ichiro is nationwdely well known as a native of Town of Toyoyama, Aichi, a relatively small town outside City of Nagoya where he lived since birth until he joined Aikodai Meiden High school (he left parents and moved to Meiden's dormitory in Nagoya). Ichiro went elementary and junior high school in Toyoyama, played as a member of boys team of Toyoyama and went to national tournament when he was at 6th grade. There are hundreds of references which tells Ichiro is from Toyoyama and his activities there in Japanese Language, just like from Mayor of Toyoyama, Japanese WP of Ichiro, Toyoyama, and junior high school of Toyoyama, and some information in English like from Aichi Prefecture Government Office, NY Times and Seattle Times. Ichiro is the honored chairman of Ichiro Cup tournament held in Toyoyama supported by private Ichiro fun club by his hometown people in Toyoyama. I was so surprised when I find this Ichiro's English WP says his birthplace is City of Kasugai, a neighboring municipality of Toyoyama, and also official player profile of Yankees on mlb.com, and other media like ESPN or CNNSI, and many books published in US and so on. I believe all those references in English are derivatives of official information on Mariners and mlb.com, but there are no way to confirm it. On the other hand, it is too strange that I found there are ZERO reference written in Japanese language which says he was born in Kasugai. All of those Japanese references say Ichiro is from Toyoyama, many of them says he was born in Toyoyama. All references of "Ichiro is born in Kasugai" come from US, even it's a local matter in that area of Japan. My first guess was that he might be born somewhere outside Town of Toyoyama, which has only 14000 population and doesn't have good hospital for delivery, and Kasugai has ones as it's enough big city where more than 300,000 people lives. My second guess was that Ichiro (and his parents) cannot tell Japanese media and Japanese people publicly that he was born outside of Toyoyama, for the honor of the hometown, as Toyoyama is so famous (almost only) by Ichiro and old Nagoya Airfield. He might asked "Where did you born?" by Mariners when he joined the ballclub and might replied the location of the hospital where he was born. I don't have any way to confirm it. Anyhow, Town of Toyoyama is Ichiro's hometown, no question for that, then I had added some description on his WP in Early and Personal Life section. Kasugai might be his birthplace but definitely not his hometown, so his profile page on CBSsports.com has wrong information. But as far as now, I cannot find any referenceable information which tells exactly about the birthplace hospital and it's name/location in any language. The book I have for Ichiro's childhood story, written by his father Nobuyuki, does not tell about it (it only talks about baseball story when Ichiro was a kid). If anybody knows any good reference for it, please let me know. Thank you in advance.--Earthhpr (talk) 01:57, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I would recommend using the city a majority of sources list as his birthplace—if there is one—and footnoting the minority viewpoint. If it is inconclusive whether his birthplace is Kasugai or Toyoyama, we could just say is he from Aichi Prefecture (similar to a province/state) and footnote that sources conflict regarding the actual city. As for English sources, most list Kasugai as being his birthplace over Toyoyama.  Can someone identify the specific Japanese sources that list his birthplace as Toyoyama and not that it was his hometown or he grew up there?—Bagumba (talk) 02:26, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it should not be decided by majority of numbers of third-party sources, because there should be one and only simple fact for Ichiro's birthplace (hospital) location, as he is a living person and it's the matter of just 38 years ago, it is very easy to identify if there's *RIGHT* sources. There should be background reasons why this kind of clear separation of origination of information sources between Japan(Toyoyama)-US(Kasugai). There's also a concern per WP:BLP, Ichiro's birthplace (hospital) information might be part of his privacy which is not disclosed by himself. Even though we have sources including MLB.com and Aichi Prefecture, they are all all third-party information, not sourced by himself. I can list some reliable Japanese sources for "Toyoyama the birthplace", but in that view point I should bring up one of most reliable one - a book "Catch Ball - Ichiro Meet you" co-authored by Ichiro himself with Shigesato Itoi (ISBN 978-4-83-560933-1 ), and it clearly writes "Ichiro is born in Town of Toyoyama in 1973" as *author's biography". There are so many books in Japan and US about Ichiro but no book written all by himself. But this is precious one that writes up the full transcript of the conversation between Ichiro, Itoi and 212 fans on the TV show in 2004, and Ichiro is listed as one of the authors because it's precise transcript of what he actually said in front of 212 fans on TV. As the situation now stands, I like your safe idea of just saying Ichiro's birthplace is Aichi Prefecture, which is 100% sure, and footnote the conflict of sources.--Earthhpr (talk) 07:36, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed that a more reliable source (i.e. a direct quote, an autobiography, etc) would have greater weight if one was identified.—Bagumba (talk) 18:26, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Here is some list of player profile pages from major Japanese newspapers/portal sites, sorted by birthplace/hometown. Those are Japanese equivalent of ESPN, CNNSI, USA Today etc in US. Birthplace - Toyoyama: Sanspo.com Hometown - Toyoyama: Yahoo! Japan Sports (note: Yahoo! Japan is contractor of mlb.com and if you click 日本語 on left upper corner of mlb.com you will be redirected to Yahoo! Japan MLB page powered by Gyao) Hometown - Aichi Prefecture: Nikkan Sports, Sponichi, Yomiuri Note that no one says Kaasugai is his birthplace/hometown. There is also a website for Ichiro quotes and there is the description writes "Ichiro is born on October 22th, 1973 in Town of Toyoyama. He was 4,280 gram on delivery and relatively big baby." I will ask the author of this website which reference he used for this description.--Earthhpr (talk) 09:01, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I will also post the link to "Ichiro timeline" article on Seattle Times, published on July 23, 2012 (on the day Ichiro was traded from Mariners to Yankees), which clearly says "Oct. 22, 1973 — Ichiro born in Toyoyama, Aichi prefecture". Thanks to Bagumba.--Earthhpr (talk) 09:59, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Note: Notice of this discussion has also been placed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan.—Bagumba (talk) 02:36, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Batted? Threw?
Why are those past-tense in the info box? He is still an active player. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.160.130.14 (talk) 00:40, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I fixed that. Giving a "last played in" date for the NPB made the template think he's retired, hence the past tense. – Muboshgu (talk) 12:44, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Position in infobox
I'm opening a discussion over what position should be listed in the infobox. According to Baseball-Reference, Ichiro has started or appeared in 1,824 MLB games in right field, 291 in center, and 53 in left. I think that the dominant position should be the one to appear in the infobox, and the secondary ones can appear in the lead or elsewhere. Looking for input. Trut-h-urts man (T • C) 17:45, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I tend to believe that if they have played more than one outfield position they should simply be listed as outfielder... as the positions are not as defined as say infield spots...  what position did he play in Japan? B-ref just lists him as OF for his Japanese playing days. Spanneraol (talk) 18:09, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Couldn't find anything about his fielding in Japan - the external link for his NPB stats (http://japanesebaseball.com/players/player.jsp?PlayerID=28) is unavailable. Regarding the position, what is the point at which we should generalize to outfielder? The vast majority of his games have been in right. For example, Ted Williams' infobox says left fielder. His BR page has 1,982 games in left, and 169 games in right. Hank Aaron has right fielder in his infobox (2,174 in right, 315 in left, 308 in center). By comparison, Babe Ruth's infobox has him at outfielder (and pitcher). His splits are 1,132 in right, 1,050 in left, and 74 in center. I think that, where the split is as extreme as it is for Ichiro, Williams, and Aaron, the infobox should list the position they play or played most often. Where the difference is much closer (Ruth's), outfielder would be the most correct. Trut-h-urts man  (T • C) 18:55, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * At a more generic level, when should we include any position—outfield or not—which a player has spent some time at? Is this based on % in a season, career, other?—Bagumba (talk) 20:53, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * This is just my opinion, but I think it should be the % of games played at a position in a player's career. Should probably be high (75-80%+) to avoid conflicts like the one going on now. 84.1% of Ichiro's outfield career is in right, which I would say is enough to warrant using right fielder over outfielder. Trut-h-urts man  (T • C) 22:10, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Not sure if we'll ever have a perfect formula. Hanley Ramirez would have to play in the OF for the next 5-6 seasons to even reach 50% for his career. Lacking a general rule, we might have to rely on common sense in some cases.—Bagumba (talk) 23:10, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Once he starts playing there on a regular basis it should be able to be added.. but once the career is over its best to choose the most played positions. Spanneraol (talk) 23:19, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * What if we were to include an infield and outfield position in cases like that? The Red Sox intend to use him in left field, but listing him as an LF right now is incorrect IMO, and should be changed back to shortstop with a bit in the lead somewhere to show that Boston wants him in LF. After opening day, LF would be the outfield position that he has the most experience with, so his infobox would list Shortstop/Left fielder. Trut-h-urts man  (T • C) 23:21, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Ichiro should just be outfielder for now. I think it has to be addressed on a case by case basis. - Bossanoven (talk) 23:29, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Can I ask why you think he should be listed as outfielder rather than right fielder? Trut-h-urts man  (T • C) 23:31, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Whoops, I misread and thought it had stated somewhere that they plan to use him in left. If he's still playing predominantly right, then it should state right fielder.  After all, he predominantly is. - Bossanoven (talk) 23:37, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, given the importance of the right field position at the major league level, I would tend to favor the use of right fielder. In the little leagues, the right field position is usually occupied by the worst player. In the major leagues, it's just the opposite, with a strong throwing arm being paramount to keep baserunners from advancing to third base.Orsoni (talk) 00:33, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * If a player is playing more then one postition on the field, then either go by the position he plays the most or list every position. VegasCasinoKid (talk) 09:52, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Does Wikipedia really want to claim that Ichiro passed Ty Cobb in hits ?
This is so incorrect. He ranks 38th with 2,916 hits not second. Secondly, if Suzuki did actually pass Ty Cobb, he would have done it two hits earlier, not with 4,192. Cobb is credited with 4,189. Look it up. When Rose passed him in 1985, Cobb was credited with two too many hits. The record books were all corrected years later and every source lists Cobb with 4,189 hits. SCSRdotorg (talk) 00:19, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia isn't claiming it: reliable sources are. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:30, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

One sportswriter for the Miami Herald is a "reliable source" for an encyclopedic fact? Ummm....seriously? I believe that there are firmly established and indisputably recognized major league baseball record keepers. One is Baseball-Reference.com. Others that might qualify are Elias Sports Bureau and baseball-almanac.com. But a Miami sportswriter? I'll leave it to those more qualified to evaluate this comment and reconsider the earlier commenter's contention. (or its snarky rebuttal)76.185.10.9 (talk) 16:01, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070705000744/http://fannation.com:80/truth_and_rumors/view/10091 to http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/10091
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090108010408/http://news.www.infoseek.co.jp:80/topics/sports/n_ichiro2__20080730_36/story/30kyodo2008073001000137 to http://news.www.infoseek.co.jp/topics/sports/n_ichiro2__20080730_36/story/30kyodo2008073001000137

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Officially a mariner
Made an official announcement and everything, please update. Liebgod (talk) 20:50, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Miscellaneous cleanup
Inserted "MLB" to Frank Robinson passage in the 2016 section.

Inserted his age on June 25, 2017 in the 2017 section. Softened [my] perceived overapplication of the word "albeit" in the sentence that follows; grammatical gurus might choose to revert that one.

Very strong suggestion for improvement: remove the final paragraph from 2013 section, regarding total professional career hits. I gather that total professional career hits includes minor league statistics. If so, total professional career hits would be an obscure (some might even argue contrived) statistic; I would strongly argue that that's just too "trivial" for encyclopedic consideration. The article as it stands is already reaching when it speaks of total "top-tier professional leagues" hits (i.e. including Japanese major league play), though I believe that that satisfies an "above the bar" ruling for inclusion here, alongside MLB records; but including minor leagues should be "below the bar" for inclusion.

I leave the last suggestion up to others to decide if it merits action.76.185.10.9 (talk) 15:38, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * As far as I know Ichiro has always played in "Top tier professional baseball leagues " such as MLB and NPB, never any minor league affiliates. Though combining statistics from both careers isn't officially recognized.  It's still seen as unofficially legitimate by some, even by sportswriters. It probably should still be mentioned as long as it mentions their combined totals are unofficial. Persistent Corvid (talk) 01:01, 7 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Also, it's generally understood that minor league stats aren't counted at the MLB level.Persistent Corvid (talk) 01:06, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Then how about saying "total major league career hits" because minor league players are paid professionals. Obviously minor league statistics are generally not combined with MLB numbers - that is, for totals; a baseball card or reference would show each line item. However the quite odd terminology "total professional career hits" implies inclusion.76.185.10.9 (talk) 18:12, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I do understand your point, but the usage of "professional" is probably the better choice in order to combine hits from both the Japan league and MLB, considering that when someone sees "major league" they automatically think exclusively "MLB." Also, while the minor league players are indeed professionals, in the sense that they are paid, the minors are seen more as developmental leagues for the professional level. The rookie league, A and AA leagues are hardly professional level competition, most players on those teams will never make it to the majors, and the MLB players are usually sent there only for temporary rehab assignments. Persistent Corvid (talk) 03:41, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

World hit king at 4367 hits
As Ichiro is not the hit king of NPB at 1278 or MLB at 3089 but combined at the top levels of baseball of two country's (Japan and the USA) with 4367 hits. He should be considered world hit king. This would take nothing away from Isao Harimoto who has NPB record for hits with 3,085 or Pete Rose with 4,256 hits in MLB.

 * Pete Rose made a reasonable claim that his own minor league hits ought to be counted in this particular context of top-level "professional" hits. This would put Rose at 4,683 hits. WHPratt (talk) 15:28, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:53, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Ichiro-suzuki 2019.jpg

Outdated Source
The section "Playing Style" states that Ichiro's total times reaching base in 2004 is the 58th most in a season and cites

Hoffman, Benjamin (10 July 2011). "With Suzuki, There's Less Than Meets the Eye". The New York Times. p. SP5. Archived from the original on 30 March 2018. Retrieved 16 February 2017

This article was published in 2011 and since then Joey Votto has reached base more than Ichiro's 315 total three times (2013, 2015, 2017) which makes Ichiro's 2004 total tied in 61st instead of 58th place. You can verify this fact here: https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/TOB_season.shtml — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baseballfanatic33 (talk • contribs) 19:39, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:05, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Ichiro Scoreboard Presentation.jpg

"Ichiro" vs. "Suzuki"
It seems odd to me that this article uses "Suzuki" rather than "Ichiro", as he is often known by his first name in English-language sources. I want to change each instance of "Suzuki" (other than "Ichiro Suzuki") to "Ichiro", but I want to determine if there is support for this before I do it. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:42, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

 * I would have been more compelled if The New York Times, which has strict standards, used "Ichiro", but this 2015 article uses "Suzuki". Brittanica also uses "Suzuki". To be consistent, I'd think an RM should agree to change the page title to plain Ichiro first before deciding on the page content. —Bagumba (talk) 00:43, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Ichiro Suzuki


text:
David A. Bednar

David Allan Bednar (born June 15, 1952) is a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). A former educator, Bednar was president of Brigham Young University–Idaho (BYU–Idaho) from 1997 to 2004.

Bednar was sustained as a member of the Quorum of the Twelve on October 2, 2004. At 52 years old, he is the youngest man named to that body since Dallin H. Oaks in 1984. He was ordained an apostle on October 7, 2004, by church president Gordon B. Hinckley. Bednar and Dieter F. Uchtdorf were called to fill the vacancies created by the July 2004 deaths of quorum members David B. Haight and Neal A. Maxwell. As a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, Bednar is recognized by the church as a prophet, seer, and revelator. He is currently the sixth most senior apostle in the church.

Life and career
Bednar was born in Oakland, California to Lavina Whitney Bednar and Anthony George Bednar. His mother came from a long line of Latter-day Saints, but his father did not join the church until Bednar was in his late twenties. He served as a full-time missionary in Southern Germany and then attended Brigham Young University, where he received a Bachelor of Arts degree in communication in 1976 and a Master of Arts degree in organizational communication in 1977. He received a doctorate degree in organizational behavior from Purdue University in 1980.

From 1980 to 1984, Bednar was an assistant professor of management at the University of Arkansas College of Business Administration (now Sam M. Walton College of Business). He was an assistant professor of management at Texas Tech University from 1984 to 1986. He returned to the University of Arkansas in 1987, serving as the Associate Dean for Graduate Studies in the Sam M. Walton College of Business until 1992, and was then the director of the Management Decision-Making Lab from 1992 to 1997. In 1994, he was recognized as the outstanding teacher at the University of Arkansas and received the Burlington Northern Foundation Award for Excellence in Teaching. He was twice the recipient of the Outstanding Teacher Award in the College of Business Administration.

Bednar served as the president of Ricks College/BYU–Idaho in Rexburg, Idaho, from July 1, 1997, to December 1, 2004. There, he oversaw and managed the transition of the school from, what was at the time, the largest private junior college in the United States, Ricks College, to a four-year university, BYU–Idaho.

LDS Church service
Bednar has served in the LDS Church as a bishop (Fayetteville Ward, 1987), twice as stake president (Fort Smith Arkansas Stake, 1987–1991 and Rogers Arkansas Stake, 1991–1995), regional representative (1994–95), and area seventy (1997–2004).

In 2016, Bednar dedicated the Star Valley Wyoming Temple, the LDS Church's 154th temple. Bednar attended the 2019 dedication of the Rome Italy Temple with all 15 of the LDS Church apostles. This is believed to be the first time the entire First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles were in the same location outside the United States.

Bednar addressed the National Press Club in Washington, D.C., on May 26, 2022.

Controversy
In 2016, Bednar attracted media attention when he claimed the church doesn't discriminate against gay and lesbian people because "there are no homosexual members of the church." He stated that being gay or lesbian is not the primary identity of individuals, but rather that each individual is first a child of God.

Personal life
Bednar married Susan Kae Robinson in the Salt Lake Temple on March 20, 1975. The Bednars have three sons.

Works

 * Books
 * Academic articles
 * Academic articles
 * Academic articles
 * Academic articles
 * Academic articles
 * Academic articles
 * Academic articles

Awards

 * Burlington Northern Foundation Award for Excellence in Teaching (1994)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: David A. Bednar


text:
Jed Johnson (Oklahoma politician)

Jed Joseph Johnson, Sr. (July 31, 1888 – May 8, 1963) was an American attorney, politician, and jurist who served as a United States representative from Oklahoma and a judge of the United States Customs Court.

Early life and education
Born on July 31, 1888, on a farm near Waxahachie, Ellis County, Texas, Johnson attended the public schools in Texas and Oklahoma and then received a Bachelor of Laws in 1915 from the University of Oklahoma College of Law and participated in postgraduate work at the University of Clermont in Clermont-Ferrand, France.

Career
He was admitted to the bar in 1918 and entered private practice in Walters, Oklahoma. He served in the United States Army as a private from 1918 to 1919 in World War I in Company L of the 36th Division. He returned to private practice in Chickasha, Oklahoma from 1919 to 1927. He was a newspaper editor in Cotton County, Oklahoma from 1920 to 1922.

He was a member of the Oklahoma Senate from 1920 to 1927. He served as a delegate to the annual peace conference of the Interparliamentary Union at Paris, France, in 1927 and 1937, and at Geneva, Switzerland, in 1929, and was Chairman of the Speakers' Bureau for the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee.

Johnson was elected as a Democrat to the 70th United States Congress and to the nine succeeding Congresses, serving from March 4, 1927, to January 3, 1947. He was an unsuccessful candidate for renomination in 1946.

Federal judicial service
Johnson was nominated to the United States Customs Court by President Franklin D. Roosevelt on March 29, 1945. He was confirmed by the United States Senate on April 3, 1945. However, he declined the appointment.

Johnson was nominated by President Harry S. Truman on April 7, 1947, to a seat on the United States Customs Court vacated by Judge William John Keefe. He was confirmed by the United States Senate on June 23, 1947, and received his commission on June 25, 1947. Johnson was initially appointed as a Judge under Article I, but the court was raised to Article III status by operation of law on July 14, 1956, and Johnson thereafter served as an Article III Judge. His service terminated on May 8, 1963, due to his death.

Personal life
Johnson died in a New York City, New York hospital on May 8, 1963. Johnson was buried at Rose Hill Cemetery in Chickasha, Oklahoma. Jed Johnson Lake in the Wichita Mountains National Wildlife Refuge is named in honor of Johnson. His son, Jed Johnson Jr., served one term in Congress.

title: Jed Johnson (Oklahoma politician)


text:
Talk:2004 Summer Paralympics medal table

Untitled
Hi. As you can see in the article, I've redirected the link to Brazil in order to reflect an specific article on the country's performance at the Paralympic Games. It's an effort similar to the already existing articles for each country at the 2004 Olympic Games. Since I don't know if anyone else would take an interest to create similar articles for other countries, I only changed the link to the article that I will be creating. I hope that others will follow suit though, it's an interesting piece of information to have. Regards, Redux 17:42, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Medal count incorrect
The medal count is not (anymore) equal to the official medal count. See http://www.paralympic.org/release/Main_Sections_Menu/Sports/Results/paralympics_reports.html?type=medalstandings&games=2004PG. The total numbers are different, but also differences for Great Brittain, Germany and Japan in the top 10. Miho (talk) 14:51, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Correction needed
The medal table is now (20:59, 9 September 2012 (UTC)) different with the IPC list. For instance gold medal and position of Iraq. Miho (talk) 20:59, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * It's corrected now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.56.48.211 (talk) 19:35, 20 September 2012 (UTC)


text:
The Matrix: Music from the Motion Picture

The Matrix: Music from the Motion Picture is one of the two 1999 soundtrack albums from the blockbuster film, The Matrix (the other being The Matrix: Original Motion Picture Score).

The soundtrack included most of the tracks the film popularized such as Rob D's "Clubbed to Death", Rob Zombie's "Dragula (Hot Rod Herman Remix)" and "Spybreak!", played by the British big beat duo Propellerheads. It also included a number of songs that were not present in the film.

Track listing

 * 1) "Rock Is Dead" by Marilyn Manson – 3:11
 * 2) "Spybreak! (Short One)" by Propellerheads – 4:00
 * 3) "Bad Blood" by Ministry – 5:00
 * 4) "Clubbed to Death (Kurayamino Mix)" by Rob D – 7:26
 * 5) "Prime Audio Soup" by Meat Beat Manifesto – 6:17
 * 6) "Leave You Far Behind" by Lunatic Calm – 3:13
 * 7) "Mindfields" by The Prodigy – 5:40
 * 8) "Dragula (Hot Rod Herman Remix)" by Rob Zombie – 4:37
 * 9) "My Own Summer (Shove It)" by Deftones – 3:34
 * 10) "Ultrasonic Sound" by Hive – 4:54
 * 11) "Look to Your Orb for the Warning (Radio Edit)" by Monster Magnet – 4:42
 * 12) "Du hast" by Rammstein – 3:54
 * 13) "Wake Up" by Rage Against the Machine – 6:08

Track order by movie appearance

 * "Dragula", when Neo meets Trinity at the night club - in background as Trinity says "Hello Neo..." [00:09:42].
 * "Mindfields", in the same scene - in background, faded into from "Dragula" just as Trinity says "My name is Trinity." [00:10:19].
 * "Leave You Far Behind (Lunatics Roller Coaster Mix)", during the fight training scene between Neo and Morpheus [00:50:22].
 * "Clubbed to Death", when Neo and Morpheus are in the "Woman in the red dress" program [00:56:35].
 * "Prime Audio Soup", when the crew of Nebuchadnezzar are seen plugging into the Matrix for the first time with Neo in preparation for their visit with The Oracle [01:07:07].
 * "Spybreak!", during the lobby shootout scene [01:42:13].
 * "Wake Up", when Neo hangs up the phone at the end of the movie and flies away, continues into credits [02:08:45].
 * "Rock Is Dead", credits [02:11:24].

Music from the film that does not appear on the soundtrack

 * The music playing on Neo's headphones ("Dissolved Girl" by Massive Attack) when he is contacted by Trinity.
 * "Plasticity" by Plastikman aka Richie Hawtin, when Neo meets Trinity at the night club.
 * The background music when Neo fights Morpheus in the sparring program (Don Davis' "Bow Whisk Orchestra" [an anagram of "Wachowski Brothers"], combining semi-improvisational drumming, Lunatic Calm's mix of "Leave You Far Behind", and Davis' "Switch or Break Show" [also an anagram of "Wachowski Brothers"]. The version of "Leave You Far Behind" found in the soundtrack is the original album one, not the movie mix.).
 * The music from Night of the Lepus that can be heard from the television set in the Oracle's living room is "Begin the Run" written by Jimmie Haskell.
 * The faint music that can be heard when Neo meets the Oracle is of 1930s jazz origin - "Minor Swing" by guitarist Django Reinhardt is followed by composer Duke Ellington's "I'm Beginning to See the Light".
 * A track from "The Eyes of Truth", by the musical project Enigma, was used for the movie's worldwide trailer.
 * A track similar to "The Eyes of Truth" titled "The Conquest of Truth" composed and recorded by Paul Hanson for Music Junkies was used for the DVD main menu.
 * A track titled "(Can't You) Trip Like I Do", a collaboration between the groups Filter and The Crystal Method, was used for the theatrical trailer of the movie. This track can be found on the Spawn soundtrack album.
 * None of the orchestral score in the movie was used in the original soundtrack (OST); parts of it received a separate release as The Matrix: Original Motion Picture Score.


text:
Charles de La Fosse

Charles de La Fosse (or Lafosse; 15 June 1636 – 13 December 1716) was a French painter born in Paris.

Life
He was one of the most noted and least servile pupils of Le Brun, under whose direction he shared in the chief of the great decorative works undertaken in the reign of Louis XIV. Leaving France in 1662, he spent two years in Rome and three in Venice. The influence of his prolonged studies of Veronese is evident in his Finding of Moses (Louvre), and in his Rape of Proserpine (Louvre), which he presented to the Royal Academy as his diploma picture in 1673. He was at once named assistant professor, and in 1674 the full responsibilities of the office devolved on him, but his engagements did not prevent his accepting in 1689 the invitation of Lord Montagu to decorate Montagu House, situated in Bloomsbury. He visited London twice, remaining on the second occasion—together with Jacques Rousseau and Jean-Baptiste Monnoyer more than two years. William III vainly strove to detain him in England by the proposal that he should decorate Hampton Court, for Le Brun was dead, and Jules Mansart pressed La Fosse to return to Paris to take in hand the cupola of Les Invalides. The decorations of Montagu House are destroyed, those of Versailles are restored (though his The Finding of Moses for it survives in the Louvre), and the dome of the Invalides (engraved by Picart and Cochin) is now the only work existing which gives a full measure of his talent. During his latter years La Fosse executed many other important decorations in public buildings and private houses, notably in that of Pierre Crozat, under whose roof he died on 13 December 1716. La Fosse was later Director of the Académie royale de peinture et de sculpture from 1699 to 1702.

The artist's works and conception played a key role in the French art history from shifting the classicism of the French style from the court of Louis XIV towards the lighter and more playful Rococo period's style. La Fosse's style prior to his emergence from the shadow of Le Brun remains a mystery, with very few sheets by him dating earlier than 1680.

title: Charles de La Fosse


text:
WFL

WFL may refer to:

Football

 * Western Football League, an English football league
 * Wilmington Football League, an American football league that played from 1929 to 1955
 * Wimmera Football League, an Australian football league
 * Women's Football League, an American women's football league that played from 2002 to 2007
 * World Football League, an American football league that played in 1974 and 1975

Other

 * WFL Drum Company, founded by William F. Ludwig, Sr., and precursor to Ludwig Drums
 * Wiedemann–Franz law relating electrical to thermal conductivity of metals
 * Win for Life, a type of American lottery
 * Women's Freedom League, a British organisation that campaigned for women's suffrage and sexual equality
 * Work Flow Language, the process control language for the Burroughs large systems
 * WWE Fastlane, a series of professional wrestling pay-per-view events
 * "WFL" or "Wrote for Luck", a song by Happy Mondays on the 1988 album Bummed

title: WFL


text:
Pierre Crozat

Pierre Crozat (1665–1740) was a French financier, art patron and collector at the center of a broad circle of cognoscenti; he was the brother of Antoine Crozat.

Biography
The brothers Crozat were born in Toulouse, France, the sons of a wealthy banking family. They moved to Paris around 1700 and rose from obscurity to become two of the wealthiest financiers of France. Pierre was known as Crozat le pauvre, to distinguish him from his even-wealthier brother.

Pierre Crozat was one of the most prominent French financiers and collectors, becoming the treasurer to the king in Paris in 1704, when he built the Hôtel de Crozat on the rue de Richelieu and his magnificent country retreat, the Château de Montmorency.

From 1714 until the purchase was finally concluded in 1721, he worked as agent and negotiator for the Regent, Philippe II, Duke of Orléans, on the purchase in Rome of the art collection of Queen Christina of Sweden for the Orleans Collection. His friend, the sculptor Pierre Le Gros the Younger who was living in Rome, acted as a go-between in the negotiations until his death in 1719.

Patron of the arts
Charles de La Fosse, who lived in Crozat's Parisian hôtel as his guest and died there in 1716, painted the vaulted ceiling there with La Naissance de Minerve (The Birth of Minerva) and delivered several paintings for Montmorency. As Crozat's house guest in 1715–16, Le Gros decorated a cabinet in the hôtel as well as the chapel in Montmorency. Antoine Watteau, of whom Crozat was the principal patron, painted a cycle of the Four Seasons for his Parisian dining room.

Collector
Crozat began gradually to acquire a notable collection of paintings, old master drawings, and objets d'art, sometimes referred to as the "Cabinet Crozat". His collection of old master drawings was already one of the most important in France at the beginning of the 18th century. Among his paintings was Annibale Carracci's Self-Portrait on an Easel.

Between 1729 and 1742, a finely-illustrated, two-volume work was published, known as the "Recueil Crozat", including reproductive prints of some of the finest paintings and drawings in French collections. Many of his old master drawings, catalogued by Pierre-Jean Mariette, one of the four acknowledged expert connoisseurs in Paris, were dispersed at auction in Paris in 1741. That occasion was termed by Michael Jaffé as "the greatest public sale of drawings held in the dix-huitième."

Most of Crozat's treasures were inherited by his nephews, Louis François (d. 1750), Joseph Antoine (d. 1750), and Louis Antoine (d. 1770), who added to the collection. The works of art were dispersed after the nephews' deaths. Louis Antoine Crozat's collection was bought in 1772, through Denis Diderot and Vasiliy Rudanovsky, by Catherine II of Russia and went to the Hermitage Museum in Saint Petersburg.

title: Pierre Crozat


text:
Yesaul

Yesaul, osaul or osavul (есау́л, осаву́л) (from Turkic yasaul - chief), is a post and a rank in the Russian and Ukrainian Cossack units.

The first records of the rank imply that it was introduced by Stefan Batory, King of Poland in 1576.

Cossacks in Russia
There were different yesaul posts and ranks in Cossack Hosts in Imperial Russia:
 * Генеральный есаул (generalny yesaul) - General Yesaul
 * Походный есаул (pokhodny yesaul) - Campaign Yesaul
 * Войсковой есаул (voiskovoy yesaul) - Army Yesaul
 * Полковой есаул (polkovoy yesaul) - Regimental Yesaul
 * Артиллерийский есаул (artilleriysky yesaul) - Artillery Yesaul
 * Сотенный есаул (sotenny yesaul) - Company Yesaul (commander of a sotnia)
 * Станичный есаул (stanichny yesaul) - Yesaul of a stanitsa

Cossack Hetmanate and Sloboda Ukraine
In Ukraine of the 17th and 18th centuries, an osaul was a military and administrative official performing the duties of aide-de-camp. The head of state, hetman, would appoint up to two osauls known as a General Osaul. There also was a Regimental Osaul as well as Company Osaul, with each regular cossack regiment and company except artillery having two of each. Beside them there were osauls under special assignments, one of them serving for General Obozny (quartermaster) who performed duties of a chief executive and was the second in importance after the Hetman.

General Osaul
A senior officer of a Hetmanate cossack army who was a member of the general officer staff.
 * Duties
 * supervising army's condition
 * leading large detachments (wartime)
 * managing muster rolls
 * directing the army engineers
 * commanding mercenary troops
 * sometimes serving as an acting hetman

Other duties consisted of being a hetman's envoy, supervised matters of internal security, conducted annual regimental musters and inspections. Among the notorious osauls were Petro Doroshenko, Demian Mnohohrishny, Ivan Mazepa, and Ivan Skoropadsky.

From 1798 to 1800 after the liquidation of the Zaporizhian Host, the rank of osaul was equated with the ranks of rittmeister in cavalry and captain in infantry.

Regimental Osavul
Regimental Osavul (Полковий осавул) is an assistant Colonel in Military Affairs.

Sotenny Osavul
Sotenny Osavul (Сотенний осавул) is an assistant sotnik in Military Affairs.

In popular culture
In the ukrainian folk song "Zadumaly Bazylevtsi" (Задумали Базилевці) about the anti-serfdom uprising in Turbaii (1789—1793), the wife of the Bazylevskyj family sends Yesauls to take care of the serfs, but they are met with unexpected resistance. The serfs end up invading the Bazylevskyj residence and murdering the land owners.

title: Yesaul


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Tridecane

Tridecane or n-tridecane is an alkane with the chemical formula CH3(CH2)11CH3. Tridecane is a combustible colourless liquid. In industry, they have no specific value aside from being components of various fuels and solvents. In the research laboratory, tridecane is also used as a distillation chaser.

Natural occurrence
Nymphs of the southern green shield bug produce tridecane as a dispersion/aggregation pheromone, which possibly serves as a defense against predators. It is also the main component of the defensive fluid produced by the stink bug Cosmopepla bimaculata.

title: Tridecane


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Talk:Chi-Chi

Isn't her name spelled "Chichi" in the manga? WhisperToMe 17:56, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Should I say this is the most disorganized article in Wikipedia? --218.191.131.92 12:10, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Frequent nonsense and vandalism
Someone please semi-protect this oft-vandalized article... Ranma9617 01:57, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Other uses
I didn't want to redlink these but was aware of the derogatory use of the word for mixed race which I thought exclusively European-Indian. Chi-chi is slang for excessively cute, pretentious or twee. Chi-chi is British army slang for a mixed-race (half-caste) girl. Chi-chi is British army slang for excessive bureaucracy. See (archived from link). Student7 (talk) 21:18, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

 * Wiktionary is the place for those; see WP:NOTDICT. Feel free to add them at wikt:chichi. The "cute" meaning is there already. - Fayenatic (talk) 08:18, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

title: Talk:Chi-Chi


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E. L. Wisty

E. L. Wisty was a fictional character created and played by the comedian Peter Cook on and off throughout his career. A bland, monotonal know-it-all, Wisty usually appeared in monologues, or in two-handed sketches in which he bores the other person. According to British comedy scholar Roger Wilmut, "The striking thing about E. L. Wisty was that he never smiled—Cook managed to keep a straight face throughout, despite the audience laughter."

History
The character was originally known as Mr Boylett, after the table butler at Radley College, the school Cook attended. Cook started by doing impressions of the real Mr Boylett, telling bizarre tales including that of the Holy Bee of Ephesus, which flew three times round the crucified Jesus, and stories of how Mr Boylett bought various inanimate objects after he thought he saw them move. Cook was encouraged to transfer these tales to stage monologues when he was a student at the University of Cambridge. It was then that he changed the name of the character, first to Mr Arthur Grole, then to E. L. Wisty. (Cook lived for a short while in Uplyme in Devon. At the time, a few miles away in Lyme Regis, there was an electrical retail shop called "E. L. Wiscombe". This could have been the root of the name, though there is no documentary evidence for this.)

Wisty appears in a sketch in Beyond the Fringe involving his aspirations to become a judge, though his lack of Latin has caused him to fail "the rigorous judging exams". This has led to his becoming a coal miner instead, since on the miners' exam "They only ask you one question. They ask, 'Who are you?' and I got 75 per cent on that."

In later sketches Wisty became known for bothering members of the public on park benches with his monologues on topics including tadpoles, royalty, newts, peace through nudism, inalienable rights and his (equally fictional) friend Spotty Muldoon. His foils were such comic actors as John Cleese and John Bird.

In 1964 Wisty and Spotty formed the World Domination League, with aspirations to dominate the world by 1958 [sic]. Cook enlisted a secretary at Private Eye to send out postcards announcing: "We shall move about in people's rooms and say, 'Excuse me, we are the World Domination League. May we dominate you?' Then, if they say 'Get out,' of course we give up." The postcard also listed the league's demands:
 * 1) Total domination of the world by 1958.
 * 2) Domination of the astral spheres quite soon too.
 * 3) The finding of lovely ladies for Spotty Muldoon within the foreseeable future.
 * 4) Getting a nuclear arm to deter with.
 * 5) The bodily removal from this planet of C. P. Snow and Alan Freeman and their replacement with fine trees.
 * 6) Stopping the government from crawling up our pipes and listening to all we say.
 * 7) Training bees for uses against foreign powers, and so on.
 * 8) Elimination of spindly insects and encouragement of lovely little newts who dance about and are happy.
 * 9) E. L. Wisty for God.

title: E. L. Wisty


text: Template:Ontario Hockey League

title: Template:Ontario Hockey League


text:
Talk:Prehistoric warfare

[Untitled]
I removed the link to the article on captives in the American Indian wars; Native Americans were not then prehistoric, and it is pretty obviously problematic to use them as 'examples' of 'prehistoric people'. This kind of 'evolutionary anthropology' is an outdated and heavily biased approach, and it's extremely prevalent in this article. There's nothing to suggest that hunter-gatherer societies and the present day have anything to tell us about the behavior of prehistoric humans and to argue otherwise generally involves an extremely bigoted definition of the word 'primitive'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.212.84.142 (talk) 01:28, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Other groups, such as the famous Bushmen of the Kalahari live extremely peaceful lives with conflict and murder all but unheard of.

Ah, the noble savage...man, what century is this? Is there a source for this claim? From what I remember about them they have just as many conflicts as any other group of people. Adam Bishop 17:58, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I'm actually more astonished by the preceding statement. I would like to know which hunter gatherer groups wage war.  Can someone answer this?
 * I'm interested of that too, if there is no reference, the sentence should be removed. For me, that sentence sound like referring to some swidden agriculturalists in Amazon area. If that's the case, then it should be no problem to "Which of these states was more common among early humans is still unknown, and is a matter of deep debate." That line also need some kind of reference.

Also i think that this part: "What is common among those groups that remain and fight frequently is that warfare is highly ritualized, with a number of taboos and practices in place that limit the number of casualties and the duration of a conflict, a situation known as endemic warfare. Among tribal societies engaging in endemic warfare, conflict may escalate to actual warfare every generation or so, for various reasons such as population pressure or conflict over resources, but also for no readily understandable reason.", refers mostly to agriculturalists in New Guinea and gardener/pastoralist warfare by large?

 * Hunter Gatherer groups generally do not recogonize themselves as having territory, at least not until recently. And the Ju/wasi or whatever you want to call em' mentioned above do indeed get themselves murdered sometimes, Nisa is a good book to read if you want a personal picture of Botswana ju/wasi society.  They do not war though because they do not have property (beyond what can be carried), however in Namibia the army does recruit memebrs from hunter groups to help them hunt people.  Either way, hunter gatherers are not p74rehistoric peoples so i guess it doesnt matter.  I think this whole paragraph should be removed.   ~FreddieResearch

 * That is a good, good point. What is common among those groups that still remain and fight frequently is that warfare is highly ritualized...
 * "Those groups that still remain?" What does that mean? --RL

My question is the same: You say "What is common among those groups that still remain and fight frequently..." What do you mean by "those groups that still remain"? Do you mean current groups living lives similar to what we think Paleolithic and/or Neolithic people might have lived? I think it would be good to clarify this. Athana 00:44, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

You say "Agriculture created large enough surpluses to enable farmers to spend some of the year as warriors, or to support a dedicated class of fighters." This statement should be qualified if not outright stricken from the article. There must be scores of theories about why warfare increased through time. This may be one, but it's only one. And it should also be referenced; otherwise it lowers one's confidence in the article. Athana 00:53, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't disagree with this line, but would like a reference: "While there are no cave paintings of battles between men armed with clubs, the development of the bow is concurrent with the first known depictions of organized warfare consisting of clear illustrations of two or more groups of men attacking each other." Especially it should be added that where these paintings are found geographically.

Bible Times
I know many of you might not think the Bible is all-out true, but it is still a historical document. The very first "battle" or "war" recorded in It is Genesis 14. I posted this same thing in "Ancient Warfare" as the story, I think, fits better over there. Colonel Marksman 17:54, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Is it the first war recorded though?  Ungovernable Force  Got something to say? 05:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * the Hebrew Bible is a historical document to be sure, documenting Canaanite history from ca. the 7th to 4th century BC. That's more than a millennium after our first reliable sources concerning warfare of the Assyrian Empire. dab (ᛏ) 07:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

bronze age warfare
there is a problem with the one of the dates regarding egyptian warfare. accoriding to David O'connor and many other scholars of Nubian history. Nubia or more properly the kingdom of kerma during this period of time wasn't subdued until 1500bc 1450bc at the latest the date given here coinsides the middle to classic phase of the kerma state during which Nubia is not only independant but rivals Egypt in millitary strength retaking lower nubia

Ignorance
"One half of the people found in a Nubian cemetery dating to as early as 12,000 years ago had died of violence. The Yellowknives tribe in Canada was effectively obliterated by massacres committed by Dogrib Indians, and disappeared from history shortly thereafter. Similar massacres occurred among the Eskimos, the Crow Indians, and countless others."

ONE: The indians didn't even know north america existed back then. TWO: Eskimo is an old, offensive term (much like calling a native american an indian) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.207.58.166 (talk) 23:59, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

ONE: It's still a term in general use. There's a host of problems with pretty much every term for the tribes, and they're all offensive to somebody. TWO: You mean calling them Eskimos is offensive to the Inuit tribes who, after all, aren't Esquimo and are a very different group altogether. The Esquimo don't seem to mind the term. It's kinda like saying African-American is offensive because it doesn't apply to Jamaicans; the failure is not in accuracy of the term, but rather accuracy of its use. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.122.106.210 (talk) 08:26, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Endemic Warfare Citation
Specific to your comments:
 * txt refers to a sub-set of citation info
 * Saying 'hunter gatherer' would be inaccurate because the citation does not refer to hunter gatherers at all. This would be being more specific than citations allow. You can not refer to a sub-set of citation info if there is no basis for it in the citation.

 * citation supports text not vice-versa
 * I have no idea of the text supporting the citation. If you change the content from the citation to the text, then citation no longer supports the text.

Also, substituting hunter gatherer for 90% of tribal societies would make it seem as though all the societies taken into account were hunter gatherers. As far as we know from this, it could have been that none of them were hunter gatherers. Another possible occurence is that the hunter gatherers surveyed were only part of the 10%. Looking at the societies he describes [ http://www.amren.com /ar/1998/01/ here], examples given are 'the Chippewa Indians, Fiji islanders, the Dinka of West Africa, and certain New Guinean tribes', 'Tahitians, Zulus, and some New Guinean tribes' and 'The Iroquois', all of which are farming societies.

Being 'not total strangers to violent conflict' is no major thing anyway. Even if there was only on average one fight once every 20 years, that would still mean everyone except wee kids would be 'not total strangers to violent conflict'.

Munci (talk) 15:40, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Here is something saying that another guy, Kelly, says that hunter gatherers weren't warlike:

He accepts almost all of what Keeley points out about tribal peoples since the Neolithic. He also accepts that tribal peoples everywhere have been violent, not peaceful and gentle. Yet, sifting the evidence finely, he still believes that warfare originated very late in human evolution and that he can pinpoint what led to its emergence and proliferation. He observes that “excepting a single Upper Palaeolithic site, archaeological evidence points to a commencement of warfare that postdates the development of agriculture. This strongly implies that earlier hunter-gatherer societies were warless and that the Palaeolithic was a time of universal peace.” Munci (talk) 16:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Neolithic warfare
Here are some articles claiming extensive warfare in the Neolithic or earlier. Bvanevery (talk) 06:33, 2 June 2008 (UTC) http://www.historicaltextarchive.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=167 http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba52/ba52feat.html http://www.austhink.org/monk/War2.doc

Azar Gat
If someone wants references, http://books.google.com/books?id=Qxr5v9r0vYcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=steven+leblanc+conflict&source=bl&ots=CCGwL_FsVc&sig=sQMwfa9JNw2qIel0UY3ayownKyo&hl=en&ei=csnkS-LKKpf4tAPCvcXRCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Also see Azar Gat Keith Henson (talk) 02:20, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Cemetery 117
Changed the date of "at least 7000 years old" to "determined to be around 13,140 to 14,340 years old." which has the virtue of being factual. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.244.44 (talk) 02:29, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

content blanking
I have difficulty what to make of this edit. The summary sounds as if this happened in good faith, Revert logical, but unsourced material, but seeing that the blanked content was a coherent and careful summary of the source quoted, I must assume there is some other rationale for the edit. Please explain. In the meantime, I have restored the blanked content.

Next time you go ahead and remove referenced content, do us the minimal courtesy of consulting the source cited and present some sort of judgement of how the content deviates from that found in the source. The reference in this case is Kelly 2005 (citing Kelly 2000), and I have even gone as far as putting Kelly's term of "Paleolithic warlessness" in quotes to indicate the term is taken from the source, not an interpretation of the source.

The only unreferenced claim in the section is the one to the effect that the interpretation of Cemetery 117 is "disputed". I left this in as I found it out of courtesy, even though Kelly is unambiguous on the evidence being certain, not "disputed". Since nobody seems very eager to provide evidence that this is, after all, disputed, I suppose we can remove this point. --dab (𒁳) 13:09, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Some points to stir up old arguments
I'm coming late to this discussion, but I want to make a few points that are in agreement with user Muncie, who wrote his comments over two years ago. Sorry, not trying to stir up old arguments, but I feel there are a few points that should be made.

First, I agree with Muncie and others that the section on warfare prior to the Neolithic makes the past seem much more pacifistic than the most recent evidence supports. The sections cite Keeley, but totally ignore his points or take things out of context.

However (point two), I think a great deal of this stems from the definition of "warfare," a point made in the introduction but then not touched upon. A section right after the introduction on what exactly is meant by "warfare," and perhaps on how the definition of warfare versus low-scale inter-group violence differs according to some, could help this. There is extensive evidence of violence in the archaeological record prior to the Neolithic, but some argue that this is not really "warfare" so much as just the occasional inter-group killing. Fair enough, but this is basically ignored in this article.

Third, there are several recorded incidences, including a very recent one that was recorded, of chimpanzee warfare (or, if you prefer, "warfare"). A possible section discussing how some primatologists and anthropologists view these incidences as a possible reflection of our own violent past would be useful.

Finally, a point is made that Paleolithic people lived in low enough densities that they could simply move away instead of engage in acts of violence makes this sound like it's a proven fact. However, evidence, such as cannibalized Neanderthal bones and skeletons bearing marks of violence, doesn't support this interpretation. This evidence doesn't support the idea of constant low-level warfare entirely, but a discussion of the arguments on both side would be useful here.

Raulpascal (talk) 13:46, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I am not sure what point you are agreeing with me on. Is it the quotation of Kelly at the end of my last comment on this talk page? Personally, I believe Keeley is overcited on this and related articles. He is surely not the only recent author to have written about this topic. Most importantly, we should look for sources, and a variety of them, and make sure to soruce them correctly. Munci (talk) 16:53, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Cemetery 117
Paleolithic ''The first conclusive archaeological record of a prehistoric battle is about 12,000–14,000 years old, and is located on the Nile in Sudan, in an area known as Cemetery 117. A large number of bodies, many with arrowheads embedded in their skeletons, indicates that they may have been the casualties of a battle. Warfare originated independently in other parts of the world as late as 4,000 years ago'' Neolithic ''The first archaeological record of what could be a prehistoric battle is on the Nile near the Egypt-Sudan border. Known as Cemetery 117 it was determined to be around 13,140 to 14,340 years old. It contains a large number of bodies, many with arrowheads embedded in their skeletons, which indicates that they may have been the casualties of a battle.''

I would edit one of these out in order to fix the repetition of information in this article. However, as I am new, I currently prefer to use the talk page before any I make any major edits of an article. Werefaw (talk) 08:42, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

 * I'm not sure what other would say but, considering Cemetery 117 is in the category 'mesolithic' and Mesolithic is in between Palaeolithic and Neolithic, I think a new section should be made entitled Mesolithic and it can have info about Cemetery 117. Munci (talk) 17:43, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Jebel Sahaba (Site 117) is undoubtedly Palaeolithic rather than Mesolithic, as the Mesolithic in Sudan does not begin until c. 8000 BC, so I'm afraid the Palaeolithic section needs rewriting.≈≈≈≈ — Preceding unsigned comment added by European Prehistorian (talk • contribs) 14:33, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

 * Site 117 belongs to the Upper Egyptian Qadan culture, which was Mesolithic.1Halpo1 (talk) 17:23, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

 * Thanks for that, 1Halpo1. However, the most recent work on the site of which I'm aware, by Antoine, Zazza and Friedman on the radiocarbon dates for the site, describe it as Palaeolithic and belonging to the Epipalaeolithic Qadan Culture, so there doesn't seem to be a consensus that Mesolithic is the right term to use.  In the context of the article, it is potentially confusing to have evidence from 10,000 BC in the Palaeolithic section, then earlier evidence in the Mesolithic, without an explanation of how this can be the case. European Prehistorian (talk) 17:57, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Doesn't "epipalaeolithic" refer to the early Mesolithic? Or to a period of increasing sedentism and population density that merges developmentally with the Mesolithic? According to the Wikipedia article of the Qadan culture, "Systematic efforts were made by the Qadan people to water, care for, and harvest local plant life, but grains were not planted in ordered rows" -- sounds like incipient cultivation to me.1Halpo1 (talk) 16:03, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Endemic Warfare (Remove?)
Article is here for prehistoric warfare knowledge, not modern day warfare. If someone has relevant info for the article referring to prehistoric endemic warfare, it should be documented here. Werefaw (talk) 06:02, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

The point is that our best shot at studying prehistoric warfare is by looking at societies which are themselves still in the prehistoric era. This applies to (historical, 19th to 20th century) descriptions of the stone age societies of Southeast Asia, Oceania, tropical Africa and South America. This is prehistoric warfare in the sense that the societies engaging in it did not develop written history. This is of course to be set in relation to the warfare of the actual prehistoric era as evident from archaeology, and needless to say, all of it is to be pulled from secondary references. It's just a matter of delving into the literature as with any other topic on Wikipedia, there is nothing wrong with the topic itself. --dab (𒁳) 19:59, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

 * I disagree that this is our "best shot" and so does Douglas Fry, who writes extensively about this very issue, starting with the new heading on page 171 of his 2013 book: http://books.google.com/books?id=YtwSz2A12e8C&q=170 Fry argues that warfare in modern tribal societies originates from the state societies around them (influencing them), rather than from any Paleolithic origins. The only unambiguous type of endemic warfare we refer to in this article is endemic warfare in modern societies--whether tribal or non-tribal. Wolfdog (talk) 01:08, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Paleolithic section
The paleolithic section in the article begins with "This part of the article is simply a matter of opinion. It cannot be proven in any way, shape, or form." I thought opinions had no place on wikipedia, this is supposed to be factual information. Should this section be either removed, or edited to make it more scientifically factual. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dk2852 (talk • contribs) 03:32, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Religious bias
There is an unabashed bais towards the religion of evolution in the article. If Wikipedia is unbiased, then all evolutionary indications need to be removed. Evolution is not fact- you silly evolutionists still haven't proven your theory! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.228.186.13 (talk) 15:23, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Evolution is not a religion. Removing references to mainstream scientific understanding would be the opposite of "unbiased".  Evolution is a fact.  Personal attacks are nto allowed here.  The theory ("explanation of how it occurs") of evolution is "proven" as well as any scientific theory can be.  Please sign your posts.  I think you may feel more at home at Conservapedia. Wardog (talk) 16:20, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Paleolithic
The section about the Paleolithic could be much more detailed. Alas, I've been too lazy to make any major additions to it ever since I first encountered this article, though I believe that I'm well-read enough to make a fair contribution. It looks as though Paulscrawl wants to expand the section now, so it might be worthwhile to discuss it here.

Paulscrawl, in an edit summary you said that you intended to add Lawrence Keeley's (by the way, it's "KEEley," not "Kelley") "influential rebuttal" of notions of a peaceful Pleistocene. I assume that you're referring to War Before Civilization; if so, please don't use it. The book is fine proof that the state is not a prerequisite of war, but has no bearing on the section because it simply has nothing to do with war in the Paleolithic (e.g. Keeley doesn't provide any examples of war between nomadic hunter-gatherers). 1Halpo1 (talk) 07:26, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

 * Thanks for reading edit summaries! I have no particular axe to grind, other than restoring some needed sense of controversy in a field involving human nature and so necessarily concerning many scholarly disciplines, peopled with incompatible philosophical predispositions and competing theories, and riddled with distinct geographic areas, not necessarily falling into lockstep periodization across the board.

 * The general public for whom we write should not be force fed one pacific theory of human nature as established fact. I planned on using Keeley as previously cited World Archaeology article did, as a foil, carefully discounted for methodological reasons but credited with bringing question to forefront, to introduce the fact that the origins of war is as controversial as ever. I agree, that book not strictly relevant to the Paleolithic section, better perhaps in lead with a similarly broad rejoinder book, such as recent anthology Peace, War, and Human Nature. Then chronology, with more details. But in each section, at least pro/con to some degree.

 * All I want to do is set up the article with a bit more of a dialogue in each chronological section. Hobbes and Rousseau are pegs on which to hange the two Ks, or alternative figureheads. It gets a bit more Hobbesian as we get closer to the historical moment. From a chronological dialog, first step as I see it, one might then expand into regional considerations at play in each period. We need more representation on Australia, the Americas, for instance. Obviously, ethnography needs to supplement archaeology; might even go into primatology. In any case, teach the conflict, not your/my conclusion. That what I had in mind - interesting article, good sources, not too specialized.

 * What would you suggest for making this article better balanced? -- Paulscrawl (talk) 08:03, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

 * My bad! I thought that you meant that you wanted to use Keeley to counter Kelly. War Before Civilization might be okay in the intro, but if so it doesn't need a "rejoinder book" to balance it: Keeley makes no claims about warfare in the Paleolithic, and I doubt that any anthropological book denies that many tribal societies were warlike.

 * I'm not sure if the purported "inherent inconclusiveness" of Paleolithic archaeology applies to Haas and Piscitelli's skeletal survey. Does the survey contain a significant number of well-preserved skeletons? If so, how many definitely didn't belong to victims of homocide? Unfortunately, Haas and Piscitelli don't answer those questions, although one might be able to find out by examining their sources. Anyway, assuming that victims of homocide are as likely to be preserved as non-victims, the following conditions would refute the possibility of warfare having been normal in the Pleistocene: 1) There are a significant number of unambiguous, well-preserved Paleolithic skeletons from around the world; 2) a very high proportion of the specimens clearly did not die of lethal violence.

 * Ethnography of nomadic hunter-gatherers is relevant. Traits shared by all or most nomadic foraging societies are probably characteristic of the type of society and therefore of Paleolithic society. Some authors point out social and economic factors that logically should have made war unlikely.

 * Citing statistics compiled by Sam Bowles, Steven Pinker in The Better Angels of Our Nature claims that hunter-gatherers, along with all other types of stateless societies, are characterized by a high rate of warfare-related death. (This is especially significant due to the popularity of Pinker's book). On pages 16 - 18 of War, Peace, and Human Nature Douglas Fry critiques the claim: The original sample size of 8 cultures is already too small, yet Fry ultimately demonstrates that 4 of them are invalid. Furthermore, "war" isn't defined, and the context of each killing isn't given -- did they raid to obtain goods, to threaten a rival group, or to avenge homicide by targeting individuals who were in another group? Furtherfurthermore, Fry has a study of 21 nomadic foraging societies that obviously casts doubt upon Pinker's generalization.

 * Bowles and Richard Wrangham have published evolutionary explanations of war or "coalitionary killing": http://www.life.umd.edu/faculty/wilkinson/BIOL608W/BowlesScience2009.pdf http://www.unl.edu/rhames/courses/war/Wrangham-coalitionaryx.pdf . Those might be worth discussing. 1Halpo1 (talk) 23:24, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

 * I've been planning to write this for a couple of weeks, but I'm so damn lazy.

 * My reasoning about the skeletons isn't entirely correct, because it's possible to be killed without receiving skeletal damage. However, the low percentage of perimortem (i.e. unhealed and therefore near death) injuries is still significant, by logic of comparing it to later samples where skeletal evidence of war is plentiful.

 * I've taken the liberty of deleting the paragraph about Azar Gat. I agree that we should compare the archaeology to relevant ethnography, but I find the paragraph to be somewhat problematic: You wrote, "[according to Azar Gat] the paucity of evidence is expected due to . . . absence of preservative burial practices, and the resulting poor condition of remaining artifact-damaged skeletons," but in the cited source Gat writes that in the Upper Paleolithic "preservation is better not only for natural reasons but because people have begun to bury their dead." According to the paper by Haas and Piscetelli, which is cited in the article, there have been many successfully preservative Paleolithic burials.
 * The absence of evidence doesn't disprove the existence of war, but I argue that it suggests rarity at most. If so, "inherently inconclusive" is misleading. (By the way, the 29 smashed skulls at Sandalja II, which Gat mentioned in the cited passage, don't exist. I searched it up and didn't find any reliable corroboration.) 1Halpo1 (talk) 23:27, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

 * Incidentally, I think that when I finally get around to working on the article, I'll reorganize it into two major sections: 1) theories of the origins of war and 2) examples categorized by region. 1Halpo1 (talk) 03:00, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Citation 32 is a dead link, heres a NYT link
https://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/world/middleeast/archaeologists-unearth-a-war-zone-5500-years-old.html Sorry for not doing it myself, still a Wikipedia noob Evan2030 (talk) 02:19, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Prehistoric warfare


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