text:
Talk:Earth-616

Name of article
It's also been called "Earth 123488" and "the Prime Reality" (and of course there's the question as to why it's named after Earth...). Is there anything to say which is the most common/most accurate? User:Timrollpickering

 * Timrollpickering, please sign your comments. I have done so for you above. Anyway, the article is correctly named; Earth 616 is a far, far more common name than Earth 123488. "Prime Reality" doesn't have exactly the same, or as specific, a meaning. --Lowellian 21:58, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)

 * Oops, thought I had. I've not heard the 616 designation much - where has it been used long term? 123488 was in use a bit in the late 1980s, particularly in Avengers, whilst the "Prime Reality" was used a bit c1993-94. And I'm sure many other terms have cropped up - has anything been said that 616 is anything more than just another writer's own designation? Timrollpickering 22:03, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Try reading the article. Or, use Google: 3 hits for "Earth 123488"; 1900 hits for "Earth 616". --Lowellian 22:10, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)

Alan Moore's answer
I see you have undone the edit I made clarifying where Alan Moore got the number 616 from, stating you would like me to cite a source. My source is Alan Moore himself; his daughter Leah Moore and her partner John Reppion are online at http://johnreppion.proboards33.com/ I asked them if they could check with Leah's father to finally lay the debate to rest; they did, and he told them 616 "was just a random number of no significance chosen because people always seemed to be talking about "earth 2" or "earth 4" but never any higher numbers." If you don't want to believe me, feel free to go on their boards and ask them yourself. User:81.6.219.143

 * I assume you are talking about this edit by User:82.133.101.56, who has a different IP address. You might consider logging in at Special:Userlogin; it's fast and easy and will make it easier to communicate on Wikipedia. Anyway, whether I believe you is irrelevant; the point is that such a claim cannot be unsourced (see Cite sources), so could you please provide a direct link to the post? Thanks! —Lowellian (talk) 05:26, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

I don't know why the IP addresses are different, because both are me, on the same computer, using the same internet provider to log online. I find it interesting that I need to provide a source for the "claim", as the various theories espoused about where Alan Moore got the number are not sourced. Up until today, I could not provide a link to a post, as the information was provided in a private e-mail; however someone asked Leah Moore and John Reppion that same question today on their boards. You can read the answer there, confirming what I posted here: http://johnreppion.proboards33.com/index.cgi?board=Comics&action=display&num=1115772466 User:82.133.111.104

 * Okay, I have added the information to the page. The reason it is a good idea to provide a source in this instance is that the claim is that an authoritative source has stated something definitive about the subject. We don't want to put words in the mouth of an authoritative source. Keep contributing to Wikipedia! —Lowellian (talk) 15:34, May 12, 2005 (UTC)

You added the information, but have left the page inaccurate. John Reppion, who confirmed the number was randomly chosen on the aforementioned thread, is the husband of Leah Moore, Alan's daughter. http://uk.geocities.com/moore_reppion@btinternet.com/Lbiog.html

They asked him why he picked the number - he told them it was just a random number. The thread on their boards confirms that. Since Alan Moore himself does not do public appearances, nor does he post online, there is no more accurate and authoritive source available, but given their connection to Mr.Moore, there shouldn't need to be; unless someone wishes to doubt their word, there is no longer any uncertainty as to why Alan chose the number. User:84.12.61.102

 * I did not make clear the relationship between John Reppion and Alan Moore because I was unsure of it myself. Above you stated that Reppion was Leah's "partner", which could be interpreted as anything from casual significant other to spouse. In any case, User:SoM has added the information to the page that Reppion is Moore's son-in-law, so that issue should be settled. —Lowellian (talk) 18:54, May 13, 2005 (UTC)

"the issue should be settled" - well, not entirely, but I've given up hoping to make this entry accurate. The entry still says Alan Moore's reason for picking the number is uncertain, and then puts forward a number of fan speculations as to where he got the number from before mentioning as an afterthought, given less prominence than a bunch of unsubstantiated fan guesses, what Alan Moore himself said to his daughter on the matter (which was then recounted by his son-in-law). This isn't Leah Moore guessing why her father chose the number, or vaguely recalling what she thought was the reason years after the fact; this was her specifically asking him why he picked it only a couple of weeks ago. The fan theories have now been discredited, much as some people seem desperate to hang on to them; to now say Alan Moore's reasons for picking 616 is "uncertain" is to imply that either John Reppion or Alan Moore himself are lying, because they've supplied a fairly unequivocal, very "certain", answer to the question. The truly sad thing is that so many people and other sites rely on Wikipedia to be an accurate resource, which means the misinformation this entry currently maintains will continue to be propagated. User:81.6.240.115

 * The speculation belongs on the page for its historical importance: for twenty-something years, fans have been speculating on the meaning. Is that not historically significant? The geocentric model is rejected by virtually all modern scientists; however, it nevertheless has an article on Wikipedia because it is historically important. The plate tectonics article discusses the idea of continents plowing through ocean crust despite the fact that modern continental drift posits a different mechanism of continental plate movement. The Earth-616 page should state the facts clearly. These facts include first, that theories related to the Number of the Beast and the release of FF #1 were proposed for 20+ years, and secondly, that John Reppion issued a statement on the matter in 2005. Readers of this article can then evaluate the evidence for themselves. We have no reason to doubt Reppion's word, but writers have been known to be reluctant to reveal the reasons behind choices in their writing in the past, either because they consider the true meaning to be deeply personal or because they wish to avoid giving an explanation which would be offensive or uncomfortable to some person or group (in this case, those with Christian sensibilities might find the idea of the Number of the Beast being associated with the Marvel Universe uncomfortable). —Lowellian (talk) 02:01, May 18, 2005 (UTC)

 * Incidentally, I have changed the sentence "The reason Alan Moore chose to name the Marvel Earth '616' is uncertain" to "Since the name was first used, fans have put forth many theories on why Alan Moore chose to name the Marvel Earth '616'"; hope that helps. —Lowellian (talk) 02:07, May 18, 2005 (UTC)

For the record, before I comment further, I just want to say that I can live with the current version of the page, because we no longer have the "Alan Moore's reasons for choosing 616 are uncertain" comment, which gave weight to the fan theories over what Mr.Moore had said himself. Your last modification does indeed help. In answer to the rest of your points: Yes, the fan speculations could be considered historically important, much like the geocentric model but until you amended the page, it was akin to having a page on the Earth which went on at great length about the geocentric model, ratifying it, before mentioning as an afterthought "oh yes, some people think the Earth isn't at the centre of the universe". As to your comment "We have no reason to doubt Reppion's word", which you immediately follow with what you consider as a possible reason to doubt his (or Alan's) word, contradicting yourself, let's just consider why Alan Moore might deny a hidden meaning if it were there: Frankly, he has no reason whatsoever to lie about why he picked the number, and if he was "reluctant to reveal" some hidden meaning, the easiest way for him to do that would have been to simply refuse to comment. User:84.12.84.97
 * 1) He's worried it might offend those with Christian sensibilities? But this is the same guy who had battles at the gates of Heaven in Swamp Thing, and lots of pagan mythology in Promethea, so I seriously doubt he cares one whit about what any religious group thinks of him.
 * 2) He's worried it might upset Marvel by saying their universe is the "Number of the Beast"? I doubt a man who has made clear his intention never to work for Marvel again some two decades ago would care enough to deny it.
 * 3) He's worried it might hurt sales of his books? He's planning on retiring, and has blocked reprintings of older work in the past on points of principle, so again, financial concerns about losing sales would seem to be of little concern to him.

 * Actually, Alan Moore does refuse to comment, correct? As you stated earlier, "Since Alan Moore himself does not do public appearances, nor does he post online..." So we must rely on second-hand accounts of those close to him to learn what he thinks, and as the telephone game demonstrates, often secondhand accounts may feature some distortion, even when the players are trying their best to preserve the message.

 * Anyway, I'm okay with the revision by User:SoM, which divides the section up into a speculation and an answer section. I also changed more instances of "it is possible" to phrasing along the lines of "fans speculated that...". I hope the page is okay now. —Lowellian (talk) 22:01, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

"Actually, Alan Moore does refuse to comment" - well, no, he doesn't refuse to comment, he's just less accessible than many because he dislikes doing public appearances and isn't online; he still does interviews readily enough. It's just that up till now, no one thought to ask him this question; as soon as he was asked, he quite happily answered. As for the information being second-hand, if Comics International or Wizard Magazine had run this information as part of an interview with him, I doubt I'd have had such a hard time convincing anyone to amend this page, yet that is easily as second-hand (and probably more likely to contain errors) as this information from John Reppion and Leah Moore. A second-hand account may feature distortion, but there's unlikely to be much distortion that can creep into "616 is a random number".

However, this debate aside, I too am okay with the current version of the page. User:195.149.28.23

Alternate universes
Official Handbook to the Marvel Universe: Alternate Universes provides a lot of information and numberings. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.213.92.196 (talk • contribs) 05:03, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

1602
Uatu didn't mistakenly refer to it as 616, there was an event that was affecting earth 616 into that state, at the end of the series that new universe was transformed into a new earth of its own.

 * This is indeed true. Have altered page so.  Morwen - Talk 14:40, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Dude, I thought..
I heard somewhere that it was because at the time Marvel had precisely 616 superheroes. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.72.21.221 (talk) 23:28, 21 February 2007 (UTC).

Far-fetched
This seems so far-fetched that I'm fairly certain it'll never be substantiated:

''For many years, the headquarters of DC Comics was located at 666 Fifth Avenue in New York City. Thus, the name could be a subtle joke that the DC Universe was Earth-666 while the Marvel Universe was Earth-616.''

How long does it remain as an uncited statement before it's removed?

(Of course, if someone can cite an article, interview, or text that substantiates the point, I'll withdraw my objection to it.)--Galliaz 11:52, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Alan Davis info
I'm concerned that the entry presently uses remarks made by Alan Davis at Tom Brevoort's blog to establish what David Thorpe's thoughts or intentions were in the 1980s. While Davis could (of course) serve as a source to establish what he himself thought and intended at that time, he can't actually serve as a reliable source for Thorpe's motivations.--Galliaz 22:32, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Of course he can, Alan worked with Dave Thorpe on the comic. It is completely reasonable (and sensible) that they discussed the things they included in the comic, particularly when they continued to be used after Dave left. Dave Thorpe's opinions on superheroes are well known - he has stated many times he doesn't like the modern genre so it's not a revelation for Alan to say that he didn't. However that's not the real point, Alan Davis states that Dave Thorpe recorded his opinion of the Marvel Universe with the designation 616. He doesn't say he might have or could have or thinks that he did. It's not an opinion of Alan's, it's not about thoughts or intentions. Alan Davis simply states as fact that Dave Thorpe chose 616 to reflect his opinion of the genre. As he was there at the time and was intimately involved I don't see how there's any concern with using him as a source.

It's a lot more believable than a comment from Alan Moore's son-in-law that the choice of 616 was a random selection on Moore's part. Ralaven 07:30, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Ralaven, I should've said that I find that Moore info is problematic, too! I know that Davis had a close working (and probably personal) connection to Thorpe.  But my point is that short of independent substantiation of Thorpe's thoughts, ideas, and intentions from the 1980s (established through a contemporary Thorpe interview, letter, memo, or diary), the entry can't independently substantiate Davis's contentions.  They have to be listed as Davis's contentions, rather than things that Thorpe thought, did, or said.  Now, I'm not saying they might not be true — we just have nothing else to cite that might show that  Davis is right.--Galliaz 12:31, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it can only be Alan's contention based on what Dave Thorpe said to him (I've swapped stated and contends round to reflect this) but it's hard to see how such a simple statement could be a misinterpretation (whereas the negative from Alan Moore could simply be that he doesn't remember because it wasn't his choice). Furthermore, unless we're going to mind read everybody we have to have a reasonably achievable standard of evidence. For example even if we had a statement from Dave Thorpe he could still be lying (then or now). How would we know? To me a statement from Alan is very good evidence. He was there and the creation of the strip was a collaborative process. Ralaven

 * I'm afraid I disagree. The negative from Moore wasn't a "I don't remember, it was probably random," it was a "everyone else was choosing low numbers, so I picked a random high one," (paraphrasing); read the above discussion, Moore's son-in-law was asked to ask Moore what the origin of the term was, did so, and reported it back. How is what he reported somehow less "believable" than what Davis has reported? What we have here is two people involved in the creation of the strip reporting two different and incompatable origins for the term, which means one of them has got it wrong. Personally, since Davis is accrediting the creation to someone else (which means, imo, he is more likely to be misremembering) and since Moore's statement makes it clear he believes he created the term, and given that Moore has throughout his career been scrupulous about giving credit to his fellow creators, that Moore had taken it down a radically different path than Thorpe had intended for it AND that the term "Earth-616" didn't turn up until about a year after Thorpe had quit writing the strip, I'm inclined to believe Moore is remembering it correctly. 158.152.61.103 12:44, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

 * My point is: we have a statement from someone other than Moore reporting what Moore said.  We don't have a source (interview, article, letter) in which Moore himself makes a definitive statement.  One doesn't have to cast aspersions on the veracity/reliablitiy of the "reporter" in order to recognize that there's a difference between an "I thought X, Y, and Z" statement and an "A told me he thought X, Y, and Z" statement.  I know this seems like nit-picking, but in establishing a chain of information/evidence, there is a real distinction.--Galliaz 02:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

And my point is, that in both cases we have "A told me he thought X, Y and Z", and in neither case do we have an interview, article or letter. We have second (or in the case of the Davis information, third) hand accounts of what happened. On one side we have Alan Moore's son-in-law quoting what Alan Moore told him about the origins, and on the other we have Tom Brevoort quoting what Alan Davis recalls David Thorpe said about the origins. In the absence of external evidence, why is one source somehow more reliable than the other? Is John Reppion somehow less believable than Tom Brevoort? And the external evidence supports Moore having it right. The article itself is worded fine (or was when I last checked), giving neither side more credence than the other, but the discussion on the topic here thus far hasn't been as balanced. 158.152.61.103 12:44, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I'm assuming that you're not referring to my comments, because I have avoided the issue of credence or "reliability" altogether. Your last comment more or less re-stated the points that I have made in my own previous comments, up until your final clause, where you said: but the discussion on the topic here thus far hasn't been as balanced.  I haven't ever speculated about "who might be more credible," instead limiting my comments to the fact that the entry confronts a similar source issue in both the Moore and Davis contentions. If anything, they are equally reliable/unreliable.--Galliaz 03:04, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

 * I'd like to request that commenters here please sign their comments.--Galliaz 11:05, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

"I'm assuming that you're not referring to my comments -Galliaz" No, for the most part I'm not referring to your comments when I say the discussion here wasn't balanced. I'm referring to statements such as "Alan Davis simply states as fact" vs. "It's a lot more believable than a comment from Alan Moore's son-in-law" in one post, or the subsequent "it's hard to see how such a simple statement could be a misinterpretation (whereas the negative from Alan Moore could simply be that he doesn't remember", which serve to suggest that somehow what Tom Brevoort reports Alan Davis is saying is more reliable than what John Reppion reports Alan Moore is saying. That isn't a balanced arguement. My comments which began with "Personally" are my own opinion (as noted in the use of that first word) as a counterpoint to the poster who seemed inclined to write off Moore/Reppion's conflicting information seemingly based purely on his feeling that they are less believable or credible witnesses than Brevoort/Davis. The only thing I disagreed with that you posted is "We don't have a source (interview, article, letter) in which Moore himself makes a definitive statement." That's certainly true, but we also don't have a source like that for Davis or Thorpe either, so if you raise that concern for one, it should be raised for both. 158.152.61.103 12:44, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

You're doing a lot of misinterpreting here. Firstly in regard to Alan Moore's (AM) statement. The believability of the statement is the comment that 616 has no significance. Alan Moore more than anyone in comics would know the significance of 616, so I find it difficult to believe that if he chose it at randomly he didn't realise its significance. It's not that AM himself is less believable it's just that Alan Davis's email fits Dave Thorpe's known position than AM's statement to John Reppion does his. Captain Britain was a minor part of AM's career; he hadn't read it for many years until Marvel published the TPB. So it's very easy to think AM misremembers. It's nothing to do with witness credibility, I'm sure both John and AM were repeating what they thought to be the truth. To say that Davis states something as fact doesn't mean it's true, it just means that he does not believe that he is interpreting what Dave Thorpe said, rather he believes he is stating something Thorpe told him. He could still be wrong. That phrase was used because the discussion was about whether Alan D was interpreting what Thorpe said. Galliaz, as you seem to have missed, was actually saying that both statements were insufficiently reliable. I was arguing that both met my requirements. However the discussion arose because Alan Davis was questioned as a source for a contrary opinion to current belief. I was thus defending his reliability as a source so the argument is bound to be unbalanced - and since when should Talk be balanced! I also strongly disagree that Davis suggesting that another person invented 616 means he's likely to be less reliable! The logic completely escapes me! Furthermore, discussion about whether Tom Bevoort reported what Alan said is a bit of a nonsense - we can be perfectly happy that Tom put online what Alan wrote to him and that Alan is happy with it. What I know about who invented earth 616 is on the main page and I actually believe that AM is correct and that he created it (randomly) as there's no evidence prior to him coming on board of its use (I know I reread all my comics three times), indeed the only reference to an ID for an earth seems to say Earth DC when Saturnyne scans Jackdaw. Even though I think it's less likely to be true I still find Davis's story more believable! I don't think we'll ever know as it was a throwaway line originally of no significance so there are no interviews at the time about it so all we have are conflicting memories. Ralaven 08:26, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Allusions Outside Marvel Comics
Yes, in Infinite Crisis Alexander Luthor messes with alternate earths. But I fail to see how the numbers have any relation with the main marvel universe. Frankly, the character of Access has more of a connection with the D.C. universe and Marvel universe. After all, several limited series of Access meeting with Marvel (and D.C.) heroes...then Access shows up in a regular issue of Green Lantern. Much more direct then some math. No offense meant. Lots42 (talk) 10:50, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Comics B-Class Assesment required
This article needs the B-Class checklist filled in to remain a B-Class article for the Comics WikiProject. If the checklist is not filled in by 7th August this article will be re-assessed as C-Class. The checklist should be filled out referencing the guidance given at Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment/B-Class criteria. For further details please contact the Comics WikiProject. Comics-awb (talk) 16:25, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Original research?
I added the template for the following reasons;

1. Did someone at DC Comics confirmed that they were refering to Marvel's Civil War storyline, if so a source should be given, otherwise it's just original research.

2. I fail to see the connection between the designation of the main Marvel Earth with "the beast from the book of Revalations", so this part should be removed from the article, unless someone has a good reason to let the text stay. 91.95.6.80 (talk) 00:56, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I decided to delete the Beast ref because no matter how you look at it, it's not an allusion to Marvel's main continuity. Even if Tom DeFalco said 'We're going to name out continuity for the number of the beast', that'd be a ref for a biblical wikipedia article. And I deleted the DC comics one, mainly for safety, because there are HUGE legalistic morasses between the intellectual propertities. I know, I know, but Wikipedia prefers caution in the face of doubt. Lots42 (talk) 04:22, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

C-Class rated for Comics Project
As this B-Class article has yet to receive a review, it has been rated as C-Class. If you disagree and would like to request an assesment, please visit WikiProject_Comics/Assessment and list the article. Hiding T 14:00, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

It is the date that the Marvel Universe was created
1961 June, or '61, sixth month, which was when they finished work on Fantastic Four #1, cover date November 61.

This is pure speculation, but could be the beginning for serious research. I suspect that this is the original rationale for 616 even if the creators themselves forgot about it. Kid Bugs (talk) 18:57, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

 * Except that the Marvel Universe technically began with "Marvel Mystery Comics #1" by Timely Comics published in October 1939, and even if you're going by the first comics printed under the name "Marvel" it wasn't "Fantastic Four #1" but "Amazing Adventures #3" in May (August) 1961. 24.190.34.219 (talk) 03:00, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Proposed merge into Marvel Universe
I propose that Earth-616 be merged into Marvel Universe. I think that the content in the Earth-616 article can easily be explained in the context of the Mavel Universe article, and that the two articles explain the same subject but using different terminology and contexts, which is not necessary and makes it more difficult to find relevant information. Goodsmudge (talk) 09:35, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That would really be a bad idea, since the section in the MU article it would be under is a summary style section. If it needed to be merged, it would really have to be merged into the Main article the summary redirects to: the Multiverse article. However, that too would not be a good idea because the 616 topic is also under a "summary style" section split into its own article because the inclusion made the Multiverse too long. Additionally, merging 616 back in would likely mean that all the other universes/realities/continuities/dimensions would also need to be merged back into the Main article. So I Oppose this proposal. --Gethralkin (talk) 05:31, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Do not merge. The Marvel Universe page would have to be renamed to the the "Marvel Multiverse", and then so would the DC Universe have to become the DC Multiverse, and all other supers publishers too, for consistency, not worth it at all.  Plus this is a distinct subject in Marvel when figuring out the setting of any story, "are they in our timeline, or dimension"?  "Is this story canon"?  "Is this story just a fantasy that does not matter"?Ace Frahm (talk) 22:38, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

David Thorpe
I asked David about this in an e-Mail, and he says:"616 = number of the beast minus five years (Bowie) x 10". This appears to reference the song "Five Years" from David Bowie's Ziggy Stardust album. The lyrics include "News guy wept and told us, earth was really dying". Near the end of the song, the words "five years" are included about 20 times, so perhaps the "x 10" is just a way of guessing "a whole lot of five year periods" without playing back the song & counting? Metrolyrics It is the 1st song on the album, released 1972-06-06, a decade before the 1st mention of Earth-616 in Captian Britan in 1983. Does anybody actually have The Daredevils comic book in question with the 1st known reference to Earth-616? What happens in that story? Are the 50 earths between 616 & 666 (five years x 10) important in the story? The article could be improved with an image of that issue, if anybody has one. Here's a wayback machine link to the Moore 616 blog postAce Frahm (talk) 22:59, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

That should be put into the article, as all of the relevant references (except the Ultimate Spider-Man, which is almost irrelevant) are unreachable!

Assessment comment
Substituted at 13:59, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Use in Spider-Man: Far From Home
In the article currently, there is a statement that in the new movie "the main Marvel Cinematic Universe continuity is stated to exist on "Earth-616"." which is technically true in the trailer (and the movie). However, in the complete film, this statement is suggested to have been a lie, and likely is not representative of the actual canon of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. So this might be worth editing to clarify, rather than its current phrasing which implies something of definite truth. (also Hello! This is my first time poking around editing Wikipedia and I've no clue what I'm doing.) PeregrineDown (talk) 15:52, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

TRN not an official designation
The "TRN" or "temporary reality numbers" used in the Marvel Multiverse box at the bottom of the page are not official and were made up by the Marvel Comics Database wiki for universes that Marvel hasn't designated a number for. Why are they being used here? 2001:569:FB92:CF00:90D8:98F3:D093:895F (talk) 19:04, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

"Number of the beast variation" speculation
Being as the "616" designation was coined around 1983, and the 616 "variation" of the commonly recognized 666 didn't come to public knowledge until the 2005 release of the relevant Papyrus 115 fragment, that particular theory of the Earth-616 name origin seems utterly insupportable and full of gaping holes. I even read some commentary that the coiner "took 666 and subtracted 50." That makes as little sense. Why not subtract 10? Or 60? Or 66? Or 18? Or 36? The "random number" theory makes more sense than all of that. Add to it, if Davis's "number of the beast" insinuation came as a subsequent refutation to the Reppion message-board "arbitrary number" assertion in 2005, that would have been around the time the 616 "alternative" became public with the release of the deciphered Papyrus 115 fragment. Seems there was some spinning going on. Something doesn't add up.MacheathWasABadBadMan (talk) 02:24, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Earth-616


text:
Korea national football team

Korea national football team may refer to:

 * North Korea national football team, the men's association football team representing North Korea
 * North Korea women's national football team, the women's association football team representing North Korea
 * South Korea national football team, the men's association football team representing South Korea
 * South Korea women's national football team, the women's association football team representing South Korea
 * Korea Unified football team, unified association football team of players from both North Korea and South Korea at the 1991 FIFA World Youth Championship
 * South Korea national American football team, the American football team representing South Korea

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Korea national football team


text:
PSIA

PSIA or psia may refer to:

 * Physical Security Interoperability Alliance, industrial standardization initiative promoting interoperability of IP-enabled security devices
 * Pounds per square inch absolute (including atmospheric pressure)
 * Professional Ski Instructors of America, an organization offering training and certification for U.S. Ski Instructors
 * Philippine Software Industry Association
 * Paris School of International Affairs
 * Private Schools Interscholastic Association
 * Palm Springs International Airport
 * Public Security Intelligence Agency, the national intelligence agency of Japan

title: PSIA


text:
Jan Wnęk

Jan Wnęk (1828 – 10 July 1869) was a Polish carver of religious statues who is claimed to have constructed and flown a glider (aircraft) in the 1860s, predating the flights of Otto Lilienthal. There is a speculative "reconstruction" of Wnek's glider in the Ethnographic Museum of Kraków.

Jan Wnek was born in the village of Kaczówka near Dąbrowa Tarnowska. He was the son of a serf and received no formal education., but was trained as a carpenter. Encouraged by a local priest, Father Stanislaw Morgenstern, Wnęk became a prolific sculptor in wood and stone for churches and cemeteries in Kraków and Odporyszów. The angels he sculpted are described as having wings of "exceptional beauty". He also possessed an instinctive talent for mechanics and improved some contemporary agricultural machinery, and acted in village plays.

There is no contemporary written description of the glider and the reconstruction in the Kraków Museum of Ethnography is entirely speculative. The claims for his flights are based on a local oral tradition. Although Professor Tadeusz Seweryn, former director of the Museum of Ethnography, claimed to have discovered some church records with descriptions of Jan Wnęk's flights, these have never been made available for independent scrutiny.

Wnęk had no formal education, and his ideas were based on his observation of bird flight and on his own skills as a craftsman. He noted that some soaring birds made use of rising air currents to gain height and so identified the optimum weather conditions for his flights. He allegedly built several experimental models and although he did not understand the theory of aerodynamic lift, he copied the upper curvature of a bird's wing. He tested his models by launching them by hand. In 1866 he is claimed to have started construction of a full-sized glider which he named Loty (Flyer), which had an ash framework covered with varnished linen. It is claimed that he controlled his glider by twisting the wing's trailing edge using strings attached to stirrups at his feet. Wnęk is said to have made his first short controlled flights in June of the same year from a small hill. After several flights, some adjustments and learning his glider behavior, Wnęk is then said to have felt confident enough to ask for authorization from the Odporyszów church priest, Father Stanisław Morgenstern, to build a special ramp on top of the church tower to launch himself from. The tower stands 45 m high and is built on top of a 50 m hill, making it 95 m high launch above the valley below.

Several public flights are claimed between 1866 and 1869, mainly during religious festivals, carnivals and New Year celebrations., and that during the Pentecost Carnival held on 16 May 1869 at Odporyszów, Austria-Hungary, Wnęk's made a flight that ended in an accident. An assistant, Michał Sowiński, was reported to be implicated in his death.

He died a few weeks later, aged 41, leaving a wife and three children. His flying activities spanned about four years. If these flights took place, they preceded those of Otto Lilienthal by 25 years. Unknown outside the locality, any achievement made by Wnek had no influence on the development of heavier-than-air flight.

title: Jan Wnęk


text:
Irving Harris

Irving Brooks Harris (August 4, 1910 – September 25, 2004) was an American businessman and philanthropist.

Early life and career
Harris was one of three children born and raised in Saint Paul, Minnesota. His father, Bill Harris, was a wealthy woolen merchant. He attended Yale University and graduated Phi Beta Kappa in 1931. He was of Jewish descent.

He went to work for the Toni Home Permanent Company, a hair care company co-founded by his brother Neison Harris (with Ray Lee) in 1944 which introduced the first home permanent. Toni Home was sold to the Gillette Safety Razor Co. in 1948 for nearly $20.0 million. The original Toni manufacturing facility was located in a former schoolhouse near Forest Lake, Minnesota.

In 1948, he moved to Chicago, where he served as chairman of fire and burglar alarm manufacturer Pittway, which was later acquired by Honeywell International, and then as the chairman of the mutual fund, Liberty Acorn. In 1957, he became a partner of R.J. Levy and Company, a New York Stock Exchange firm headquartered in New York. In 1975, he left Levy to focus on managing his family’s assets. In 1986, he renamed the family investment firm, William Harris Investors, Inc., in honor of his father.

Philanthropy and activism
Harris did much of his charitable work in Chicago, Illinois, but he also donated substantially to the arts in Aspen, Colorado. Harris contributed most of his money to programs for children and the arts such as the Joan W. and Irving B. Harris Theater for Music and Dance at Millennium Park. In 1986, Harris gave a donation that established The Irving B. Harris Graduate School of Public Policy Studies at The University of Chicago.

Harris gave the lead gift in 1954 to create public television station WTTW in Chicago - he later served as the station's Chairman of the Board.

His philanthropy created several non-profits in Chicago: Family Focus (with Bernice Weissbourd); the Ounce of Prevention Fund, a public-private partnership dedicated to preventing teenage pregnancy, child abuse and neglect; and the Erikson Institute, a graduate school founded in 1966 involved child development. Harris was also an ardent supporter and donor of Zero to Three, an early childhood organization.

Harris was a benefactor to Jewish causes. He was a member of the American Jewish Committee's National Leadership Council, President's Cabinet and was a Founder of the AJC's Institute on American Jewish-Israeli Relations. He served on the Advisory Council of the AJC Chicago Chapter for 35 years. He was awarded the AJC's Human Rights Medallion for his efforts to combat anti-Semitism.

Harris published a book, Children in Jeopardy, in 1996.

Personal life
Harris married twice. His first wife was Rosetta Wolpert (b 1910 Minneapolis, MN); they had two daughters, Roxanne Harris Meyer Frank and Virginia Harris Polsky, and a son, William Wolpert Harris. His second wife was Joan Harris. Harris is the grandfather of noted New York City restaurateur Danny Meyer, son of Roxanne Harris Meyer Frank.

title: Irving Harris


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Bischofferode

Bischofferode is a village and a former municipality in the Eichsfeld district, in Thuringia, Germany. Since 1 December 2010, it is part of the municipality Am Ohmberg. Bischofferode consists of the subdivisions of Bischofferode, Hauröden and Siedlung "Thomas Müntzer".

Bischofferode and Holungen
The historical border of the area "Eichsfeld" goes straight through the drainage area of the two schools - Bischofferode and Holungen are dominated by the Catholic belief, that shows the traditional membership to the Eichsfeld. Hauröden is dominated by the Protestant belief, what shows, that the village was historically stronger linked to the Protestant area of Nordhausen and Sondershausen. (Hauröden has been a part of the district of Nordhausen until 1952).

It was first mentioned in 1186 as a convent village of the monastery in Gerode.

Little hamlets in the boundary: - Wenigenbischofferode - Husen - Poppenrode

The arms are The unprooting hoe and the crosier show the origin as an unprooting village and the bishop's property.

Economy
The people mainly earned their money in the agricultural production until the beginning of the 20th century. Then in 1909 the salt mine opened. It was the most important branch until 31 December 1993. This date was the end of the salt production in Bischofferode. Today the trade plays a more important role.

Village of Hauröden
The village Hauröden - hauröden has been a part of Bischofferode since 1974. The first mention is: 1206 Howeritte 1370 Houenreden. The village was nearly depopulated as a result of the Thirty Years' War.

Little hamlets in the boundary: Bennrode, Sipterode, Billrode.

Economy
Agricultural production and weaving were the first sources of income followed by the salt-mining. Working in the salt-mine meant better wages for the people. In 1897 a railway line was built, the housing estate "Neubleicherode" was founded and electricity introduced in 1917. A housing estate for the workers was built in Hauröden itself in 1919.

Sights/ tourist attractions
Church (Trinitatiskirche) built in 1617 in rustic baroque style - war memorial (1927) - very old lime tree (under protection) - "Hauröder Klippen" - a lookout in the hills of the Ohm Hills - restaurant "Hauröder Klippen" (in 1997 renovated, with rooms to let)

Church (Marienkirche) with a baroque tower and a modern interior decorating (projected by Prof. Tresst) - museum of the "potash union" - a lot of public footpaths

Population development

 * Reference (from 1994): Thüringer Landesamt für Statistik

title: Bischofferode


text:
Rice Belt

The Rice Belt of the United States includes Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi and Texas, four southern U.S. states that grow a significant portion of the nation's rice crop. The name is in conformity with the Corn Belt of the Midwestern United States, in which much of the nation's corn is grown.

Arkansas is the nation's leading rice producer, followed by California (not part of the Rice Belt), Louisiana, Mississippi, Texas, and Missouri (bordering on, but not part of, the Rice Belt).

title: Rice Belt


text:
Bockelnhagen

Bockelnhagen is a village and a former municipality in the district of Eichsfeld in Thuringia, Germany. Since 1 December 2011, it is part of the municipality Sonnenstein, of which it is an Ortschaft. The community has two constituent parts, Bockelnhagen and Weilrode. Bockelnhagen is one of the few villages in the Eichsfeld district which were not part of the historical Eichsfeld.

History
The first written mention of Bockelnhagen dates to 1143. From 1816 on, after the Congress of Vienna, it belonged to the Erfurt district of the Prussian Province of Saxony.

title: Bockelnhagen


text:
Großbodungen

Großbodungen is a village and a former municipality in the Eichsfeld district, in Thuringia, Germany. Since 1 December 2010, it is part of the municipality Am Ohmberg.

title: Großbodungen


text:
Human (disambiguation)

Humans are a species of highly intelligent apes.

Human(s) may also refer to:

Science

 * Human, any member of the genus Homo (since c. 2.5 million years)
 * Human taxonomy, the classification of the species Homo sapiens
 * Archaic humans, since c. 200,000 years
 * Homo sapiens idaltu (c. 160,000 years ago), the name given to a number of around 160,000-year-old hominid fossils found in 1997 in Herto Bouri, Ethiopia
 * Homo sapiens sapiens, anatomically modern humans
 * Human appearance, the outward phenotype or look of human beings
 * Human variability, the range of possible values for any physical or mental characteristic of human beings
 * Human behavior, the range of behaviors exhibited by humans
 * Human condition, the unique features of being human
 * Human nature, the distinguishing characteristics that humans tend to have independent of the influence of culture
 * Human self-reflection, the capacity of humans to exercise introspection and the willingness to learn more about their fundamental nature

Films

 * Human (1976 film), a Mexican film directed by Gustavo Alatriste
 * Human (2015 film), a documentary by Yann Arthus Bertrand

TV series

 * Human (TV series), an Indian television Series
 * Humans (TV series), an English-language science fiction TV series about artificial intelligence and robotics
 * Humans (2021 TV series), a 2021 Chinese remake

TV episodes

 * "Human" (Stargate Universe)
 * "Humans" (Zoboomafoo)
 * "Humans", a Series H episode of the television series QI (2010)

Characters

 * Human (Babylon 5), the human race in the fictional world of Babylon 5
 * Human (Star Wars), the human race in the fictional world of Star Wars

Other

 * HUMAN, formerly Humanistische Omroep, a Dutch TV channel

Bands

 * Human (band), a death metal/grindcore band from New Zealand
 * Humans (American band), a new wave band from Santa Cruz, California
 * Humans (Canadian band), an indie electronic band from Vancouver, British Columbia

Albums

 * Human (Brandy album) or the title song, 2008
 * Human (Death album), 1991
 * Human (Joell Ortiz and Illmind album) or the title song, 2015
 * Human (Leo Ku album) or the title song, 2006
 * Human (Masaharu Fukuyama album) or the title song, 2014
 * Human (Max Cooper album), 2014
 * Human (OneRepublic album), 2021
 * Human (Projected album), 2012
 * Human (Rag'n'Bone Man album) or the title song (see below), 2017
 * Human (Rod Stewart album) or the title song, 2001
 * Human (Steve Angello album), 2018
 * Human (Three Days Grace album), 2015
 * Human (The Veronicas album) or the title song, 2021
 * Human (Darren Criss EP) or the title song, 2010
 * Human (Dodie EP) or the title song, 2019
 * Human, by Gary Numan and Michael R. Smith, 1995
 * Human, by Katy Steele, 2016
 * Human, by Rachael Lampa, 2010
 * Human, by Waylon, 2019
 * Humans (album), by Bruce Cockburn, 1980
 * Humanz, by Gorillaz, 2017

Songs

 * "Human" (Christina Perri song), 2013
 * "Human" (Cody Johnson song), 2022
 * "Human" (Goldfrapp song), 2001
 * "Human" (The Human League song), 1986
 * "Human" (The Killers song), 2008
 * "Human" (Oscar Zia song), 2016
 * "Human" (Rag'n'Bone Man song), 2016
 * "Human" (Skye Sweetnam song), 2007
 * "Human" (Lenny Kravitz song), 2024
 * "Human", by C-Tec (Cyber-Tec Project) from Cyber-Tec, 1995
 * "Human", by Carpark North from All Things to All People, 2005
 * "Human", by the Cheetah Girls from TCG, 2007
 * "Human", by Cher Lloyd from Sorry I'm Late, 2014
 * "Human", by Civil Twilight from Civil Twilight, 2010
 * "Human", by Daughter from If You Leave, 2013
 * "Human", by DIIV, 2011
 * "Human", by Ellie Goulding from Lights, 2010
 * "Human", by Emeli Sandé from Real Life, 2019
 * "Human", by Gretta Ray, 2021
 * "Human", by Hellyeah from Undeniable, 2016
 * "Human", by Imelda May from Life Love Flesh Blood, 2017
 * "Human", by Jon McLaughlin from Indiana, 2007
 * "Human", by Metallica from S&M, 1999
 * "Human", by the Music from The Music, 2002
 * "Human", by Of Monsters and Men from Beneath the Skin, 2015
 * "Human", by Oh Land from Oh Land, 2011
 * "Human", by Ola from Carelessly Yours, 2014
 * "Human", by OneRepublic from Oh My My, 2016
 * "Human", by the Pretenders covering "Human on the Inside" by the Divinyls, 1999
 * "Human", by Sevdaliza from ISON, 2016
 * "Human", by Shayne Ward from Obsession, 2010
 * "Human", by Stan Walker from All In, 2021
 * "Human (Like the Rest of Us)", by Trapt from DNA, 2016
 * "Humans" (song), by Vikkstar, 2023

Literature

 * Human?, a 1954 science fiction anthology edited by Judith Merril
 * Humans (novel), a 2003 Neanderthal Parallax novel by Robert J. Sawyer
 * Humans: A Brief History of How We F*cked It All Up, a 2018 non-fiction book by Tom Phillips

Other media

 * Human (Dungeons & Dragons), the human race in the fictional world of Dungeons & Dragons
 * Human Entertainment, a former Japanese computer and video game company
 * Human, a playable race in the MMORPG Guild Wars 2

Places

 * Human, Iran, a village in Isfahan Province, Iran
 * Human, Yazd, a village in Yazd Province, Iran
 * Human, Ukraine, a town in Ukraine

Other uses

 * Human (surname), a surname of German and English origin
 * Humān, or Houman, a Turanian hero in Shahnameh, the national epic of Greater Iran
 * Humanistische Omroep, a Dutch public broadcaster known as HUMAN
 * Al-Insan, "Human", 76th chapter (sura) of the Quran

title: Human (disambiguation)


text:
Nasal septum

The nasal septum (septum nasi) separates the left and right airways of the nasal cavity, dividing the two nostrils.

It is depressed by the depressor septi nasi muscle.

Structure
The fleshy external end of the nasal septum is called the columella or columella nasi, and is made up of cartilage and soft tissue. The nasal septum contains bone and hyaline cartilage. It is normally about 2 mm thick.

The nasal septum is composed of four structures:
 * Maxillary bone (the crest)
 * Perpendicular plate of ethmoid bone
 * Septal nasal cartilage (ie, quandrangular cartilage)
 * Vomer bone

The lowest part of the septum is a narrow strip of bone that projects from the maxilla and the palatine bones, and is the length of the septum. This strip of bone is called the maxillary crest; it articulates in front with the septal nasal cartilage, and at the back with the vomer. The maxillary crest is described in the anatomy of the nasal septum as having a maxillary component and a palatine component.

Development
At an early period, the septum of the nose consists of a plate of cartilage, known as the ethmovomerine cartilage.

The posterosuperior part of this cartilage is ossified to form the perpendicular plate of the ethmoid; its anteroinferior portion persists as the septal cartilage, while the vomer is ossified in the membrane covering its posteroinferior part.

Two ossification centers, one on either side of the middle line, appear about the eighth week of fetal development in this part of the membrane, and hence the vomer consists primarily of two lamellae.

About the third month, these unite below, and thus a deep groove is formed in which the cartilage is lodged.

As growth proceeds, the union of the lamellae extends upward and forward, and at the same time, the intervening plate of cartilage undergoes absorption.

By the onset of puberty the lamellae are almost completely united to form a median plate, but evidence of the bilaminar origin of the bone is seen in the everted alae of its upper border and in the groove on its anterior margin.

Clinical significance
The nasal septum can depart from the centre line of the nose in a condition that is known as a deviated septum caused by trauma. However, it is normal to have a slight deviation to one side. The septum generally stays in the midline until about the age of seven, at which point it will frequently deviate to the right. An operation to straighten the nasal septum is known as a septoplasty.

A perforated nasal septum can be caused by an ulcer, trauma due to an inserted object, long-term exposure to welding fumes, or cocaine use. There is a procedure that can be of help to those suffering from the perforated septum. A silicone button can be inserted in the hole to close the open sore.

The nasal septum can be affected by both benign tumors such as fibromas, and hemangiomas, and malignant tumors such as squamous cell carcinoma.

Cosmetic procedures
A nasal septum piercing is usually carried out through the fleshy columella close to the end of the nasal septum.

title: Nasal septum


text:
Talk:The Catch (baseball)

Endy Chavez
I do not think Endy Chavez's catch deserves a place on this page. It's definitely not "the catch," and we can't list every time an outfielder caught a baseball. I think it should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rocket Red (talk • contribs) 13:15, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, maybe there should be a separate article for the chavez catch —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.154.22.149 (talk) 04:57, 15 April 2007 (UTC).
 * The Mets ended up losing that game and thus the NLCS, so that catch really has very little significance. Wahkeenah 12:02, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I've removed the Chavez content (WP:BOLD). I noticed that it was the contribution of one anonymous editor, but hasn't really been expanded by anybody else. --Madchester 18:43, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Merge with 1954 World Series?
Shouldn't this be two seperate entries? User:MrCalifornia 22:26, 29 September 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes User:Gareth Owen 06:14, 30 September 2004 (UTC)

No reason given for merge. User:Jacobolus 04:53, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Oppose "The Catch" is famous in it's own right, like Babe Ruth's Called Shot, and the Shot Heard 'Round the World, and should have its own article. Much have been written about these 3 famous plays, and are more notable than many other articles in wikipedia --rogerd 04:25, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose "The Catch" is more famous than the rest of that world series, and is part of American popular culture. It deserves its own article. Incidentally, if there's no reason given for the merge, could someone please remove the tags.  I did, but they were re-added with no rationale given. --jacobolus (t) 04:51, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep it separate Like the 1932 and 1951 events, it is the defining moment of that season. And regarding no rationale having been given to the contrary, keep in mind that oftimes rationale "don't enter into it". Wahkeenah 12:32, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Second thought the World Series article is not overly large, and some of the informaiton overlaps, so a merger and a redirect from this one shouldn't make the Series article unwieldy.
 * Oppose. The Catch is bigger than the 1954 World Series. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.146.39.130 (talk • contribs) 18:44, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Merge I'm astonished to learn that there's an entire article devoted to one play. Insane.  Regarding "The Shot Heard Round the World"--that was not in a world series game, but the 1951 three-game playoff between the Giants and Dodgers to decide the National League championship.  To my knowledge, there is no entry for that playoff series. I think it's real craziness to maintain separate articles for a playoff series and particular events within that same playoff series. Vidor 19:08, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep as is. The Catch is the greatest fielding play of all time.--Mike Selinker 08:12, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, Willie himself disagrees on that. But it's certainly among the most famous fielding plays, if not the most famous. Wahkeenah 13:06, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I think that The Catch definitely deserves it's own page. It is much more important than the 1954 World Series.  If any of the articles stand it should be this one. --Rocket Red

Otis Nixon
If we're mentioning all legendary baseball catches, then Otis Nixon's catch on July 25, 1992 needs mention. If you mention the moniker "The Catch" to true Braves fans, this catch is the first and only thing they'll think of. Nixon scaled a roughly 9 foot outfield wall to rob Andy Van Slyke of a home run. -- § Hurricane E  RIC § archive 22:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * That was probably not a play that turned a World Series. Wahkeenah 23:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Neither was Endy Chavez's. His was during the NLCS and the Mets lost that game and that series. -- § Hurricane E  RIC § archive 15:21, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

450 feet?
If we see the pic, does it really look like the estimate of "450 feet" is an exaggeration? Is there a citation for the claim that it's an exaggeration? -- Sholom 13:17, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The authors of the original "Encyclopedia of Baseball", ca. 1950, put a tape measure to it and came up with something like 425 feet to the corner of the runway. Aerial photographs and blueprints also confirm this. The photo makes that corner look closer to the 483 mark, which really is an "optical illusion" caused by the "scrunching" effect of the telephoto lens. And if you think about it, the far left and right center corners were posted at about 450, so simple geometry would tell you that the almost-straightaway bleacher corners should be less than 450. Wahkeenah 01:48, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

In lieu of uploading the 1950 diagram for now, I direct interested parties to this site which makes it clear that (1) the two rounded corners were less than 460 from the plate, thus it is not geometrically possible for the straightaway corner to be as much as 460; and (2) it is clear the runway is 50-60 feet deep, which puts the front corner in the 415-430 range, which is also what the 1951 book shows, and which aerial photographs confirm. Also, keep in mind that you had Brickhouse saying "about 460", based on nothing except the same visual perspective distortion that misleads people when they see the photos of this play... namely, that the front corner "seems" closer to the 483 sign than it really is. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 18:59, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Another Famous Quote
Good to see the Don Liddle "I got my man out," quip. There's another good quote that maybe someone can verify. One of the key Dusty Rhodes home runs just made it inside a 251-foot foul pole, which caused Al Lopez to say that his team got beat by the shortest homer and the longest out. WHPratt (talk) 16:50, 3 June 2009 (UTC) Actually, some accounts say that it just caught an overhanging part of the upper deck, and may have gone less than 250 feet, so that it was really a very lucky pop fly. WHPratt (talk) 19:52, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The overhang was in left field. The right field upper deck was plumb with the wall. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:07, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Here's the quote. It's Indians' manager Al Lopez.

"Well, we were beaten by the longest out and the shortest homer of the year."

Lewiston (Maine) Evening Journal, 28 Sep 1954

Found in a Google search. WHPratt (talk) 22:30, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Confusing text
"Doby, the runner on second, might have been able to score the go-ahead run had he tagged at the moment the ball was caught; as it was, he ran when the ball was hit, then had to scramble back to retag and only got as far as third base."

Reading "had to scramble back" and then "only got as far as third base" plants the suggestion that Doby got doubled off at second, which was not the case. I'd suggest wording such as ...

"Doby, the runner on second, might have been able to score the go-ahead run had he tagged at the moment the ball was caught. However, having run when the ball was hit, he had time only to retag and then advance to third."

WHPratt (talk) 17:34, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

 * As someone not from America, I found most of the article incomprehensible because of the technical language used. There is too much presumption of prior knowledge of technical terms and vernacular for this to be understandable to most outside the US. - SchroCat (talk) 06:31, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

 * I like to change suggested by WHPratt, I might further suggest adjusting "had he tagged at the moment the ball was caught" to say "had he waited at second until the ball was caught". In fairness to Doby, he may have been forced/influenced to run by Rosen approaching, looking to score from first on a long base hit; had first base been open, waiting at second in that scenario feels more likely. SchroCat, is the concern US vernacular or baseball vernacular? An example or two of what you found incomprehensible would be helpful. Thanks Dmoore5556 (talk) 02:09, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

 * I don't see any harm in that version, its being less jargon and more colloquial. I apologize for the non-word "retag." It's really unfair to blame the runner(s), as nobody thought anybody was going to make the play. Nobody except Willie, that is!WHPratt (talk) 05:18, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Baseball vernacular. I know that most of the terms will be deeply embedded into the language and culture of the US, which means many people will not have considered just how confusing it is. In terms of examples, and just to give you a flavour, what I don't understand is in bold, and what I don't know, but have made an educated guess at is in italics:

 * "In the top of the 8th inning with the score tied 2–2,[1] Giants starting pitcher Sal Maglie walked Indians lead off hitter Larry Doby. Al Rosen singled, putting runners on first and second.[2] New York manager Leo Durocher summoned left-handed relief pitcher Don Liddle to pitch to Cleveland's Wertz, a left-handed batter.[2]"
 * "Wertz worked the count to two balls and one strike before hitting Liddle's fourth pitch approximately 420 feet to deep center field."

 * I know it's a difficult thing to re-write what is second nature for an audience that has no background knowledge - particularly without dumbing it down for any American readers who would wonder why obvious terms are being explained or missed out for a longer explanation, but it may help reach a wider readership. By way of contrast, I know that cricket can be an alien language to many, but the FAs written on that are done quite well, carrying a lighter load of technical terms, and interspersed with explanations for the some of the technical words that can't be left out. Aside from not understanding some of the technical side, I thought this was a nicely put together article, by the way. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 19:32, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

 * Thanks for your comments. I don't have a good answer for you, as expanding or revising the article to explain terms like those would make it quite long and burdensome. Reading content (WP or elsewhere) about a particular sport does require some degree of understanding on the part of the reader; a cricket article discussing a famous test match should not go out of its way to explain what an over is. There should be other content that can provide info about baseball terms; Glossary of baseball may be helpful. Sorry that this reply probably isn't very helpful, but hopefully it doesn't deter your continued interest in baseball. Dmoore5556 (talk) 04:16, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

 * Writers have to vary the words used a bit, (e.g., "home run," "homer") lest the text induce boredom. We should be striving for clarity, above all, and avoiding sportswriter jive (don't use "circuit clout," "tater," or "Ballantine Blast").
 * I think that the passage under discussion is has a further complication to it: a runner scoring from second base on a sacrifice fly is a rare event. The fact that such is even considered here is testament to how difficult it would be to catch that ball and recover in time to make the throw. I tried rewriting it like this

On a drive hit so deep and forcing the fielder to run away from the infield, Doby might well have been able to tag up at second and score a run on a sacrifice fly. As it developed, Doby had to scramble back to second to tag up and he still had time to advance to third.
 * which isn't much better! WHPratt (talk) 16:59, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

 * Before further consideration of the specific wording, I don't currently see a source for the "might have been able to score from second" analysis/commentary. One should be established.... Dmoore5556 (talk) 23:16, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

 * That idea had been in the article for some time, so I just ran with it. I suppose we need to quote some sportswriter, coach, ballplayer or other witness as to whether there was any chance of that happening. WHPratt (talk) 12:48, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

 * Just getting a chance to read this again, and I don't think that the idea that Doby just might have scored from second after the catch is merely opinion, and somehow too strong a statement. You've got a fly ball driven to the deepest part of the most freakishly deep ballpark ever, with the fielder running away from the play. Also, runners have now and again scored from second on far less extreme fly outs. It would be hard to find a better situation for such an occurrence! WHPratt (talk) 13:07, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

 * I'm OK with the current wording, given the context as you've noted. Support via a citation would still be good to have; something to keep an eye out for. Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 18:15, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

 * I don't know whose opinion we could cite! Not Mays: he was too busy making the catch to watch the runners. Now, maybe if the third base coach had been quoted as to whether or not he'd wave Doby around third on a catch, or Doby himself as to whether he thought it could be a two-base sac-fly. Maybe the Indians' catcher would have had the best view and the best appraisal. WHPratt (talk) 22:57, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

 * I just saw a rerun of the Ken Burns *Baseball* segment, 7th Inning – The Capital of Baseball; Original airdate: Monday, September 26, 1994. When Mays' catch is covered, Monte Irvin is one of the talking heads via film clips, and he states that Doby could have scored from second had he tagged up. That's a pretty good, eyewitness authority, I'd say.  WHPratt (talk) 01:51, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

 * Nice find, and worth adding as a citation in the article. Thanks. Dmoore5556 (talk) 03:52, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

 * Added, unobtrusively I hope, in a footnote: putting the quote in the main text seemed overkill. I couldn't find a style guide for quotes from TV shows, so I improvised. Someone might be able to improve upon it. Incidentally, the quote is approximately 1:24 into the 2:11 episode. WHPratt (talk) 02:48, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

 * That's great. I just updated the citation using the "cite AV media" template, and I was able to find the video on YouTube so added a link to the segment of interest as well. Makes a nice addition to the page, thank you. Dmoore5556 (talk) 04:02, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

 * Looks good! WHPratt (talk) 04:57, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:The Catch (baseball)


text:
Jützenbach

Jützenbach is a village and a former municipality in the district of Eichsfeld in Thuringia, Germany. Since 1 December 2011, it is part of the municipality Sonnenstein, of which it is an Ortschaft.

title: Jützenbach


text:
Holungen

Holungen is a village and a former municipality in the district of Eichsfeld in Thuringia, Germany. Since 1 December 2011, it is part of the municipality Sonnenstein, of which it is an Ortschaft. It lies approximately 35 km from the university town of Göttingen. With a population of around 1,000, it is one of the medium-sized villages in the district.

Coat of arms
On the coat of arms, the right half represents the Sonnenstein, a hill very close to the town. On the upper left quarter, the Wheel of Mainz represents the Archbishopric of Mainz, and the lower left quarter shows two crossed hammers indicative of potash mining and symbolising the environment. Over many decades, mining was of enormous economic importance.

Origin of the name
The research into the origin of the name traces it back to antiquity. Evidence for the origin comes mostly from documents in the Gerode Monastery. The name “Holungen” is said to derive from the German word “Hold” (= a gentle benevolent goddess or woman). However, in speech, this word is indistinguishable from “Holt”, an older German word for wood. In old title deeds the name also appears as “Holdungen”, which suggests the name could also derive from “Haulungen”, meaning “pasture in a clearing on sloping ground”. This interpretation infers that Holungen was designated as a “Waldsiedlung” (settlement in a forest). Villages whose names end in “-ungen” were all founded in an earlier settlement period. Therefore, is it possible that Holungen's founding could date back as far as the initial colonisation of modern Germany by Germanic peoples. It could have existed as far back as 531, the Second Settlement Period (all placenames ending in “-ungen”), when the Franks conquered Thuringia. Later on, the northern part of Eichsfeld, including Holungen, belonged to the Saxons. Saxon characteristics and peculiarities were taken up. This also explains why a language border (isogloss) runs through Holungen. Residents speak Low German, while people of the neighbouring town of Bischofferode speak standard German.

Location
Holungen is located at the foot of the Ohm Hills at the bottom of the Bode valley, about 35 km from the Harz mountains. It is a so-called Haufendorf ("clustered village"; denotes an irregular, unplanned and quite closely packed village, built around a central square). To the south lie the Sonder and the Ohmberg with the “Wilde Kirche” (Wild Church). The Hohenkammer lies to the west, where the Segeltal valley separates it from the Sonder. To the north, the 486-metre-high Sonnenstein rises above the village. In addition, the Graseforst is found there. The course of the Bode runs along the valley floor to the east. There is also a large spoil heap from potash mining, which is nearly as big as the adjacent mountains.

Holungen lies 350 m above sea level. It is well protected from the easterly winds and other external influences by mountains. Its soil is formed from crystalline rocks, made of minerals such as quartz, feldspar and mica. The erosion of rocks forms sandy soil from quartz, and clay and loam from potash/feldspar-based rocks.

Early history
According to documents found in the monastery at Gerode, Holungen was founded between 531 and 800. In the following centuries, there was much armed conflict near the village and in the surrounding area. In 933, Henry I beat the Magyars at the Unstrut river. Twenty-two years later, his son Otto the Great did the same at the Lechfelde, bringing peace to the area. Between 1118 and 1120 the Gerode Monastery was founded.

In 1247, the Thuringian landgrave Heinrich Raspe died, bringing conflict back to the area. From 1236 to 1247, he was Landesherr (territorial lord) of part of the march of Tu-der-stede, modern-day Duderstadt. He was also brother-in-law to Elisabeth of Hungary. In 1246 he was elected counter-king to Conrad IV, son of Frederick II. Although his forces defeated Conrad's at the battle of Nidda, he died shortly afterwards, and after his death fighting broke out over the order of succession for the title Landgrave of Thuringia, during which Holungen was devastated. Many inhabitants fled to Duderstadt. Some evidence for this comes from deeds dating to 1266 and 1299. The documents of 1266 also give us the first mention of Holungen, under the name “Haldrungen”. Between 1350 and 1370, the village was rebuilt again and belonged to the county of Lohra. In 1370, Holungen became a part of the county of Honstein and in 1431, it became by exchange the monastery village of the monastery at Gerode. In 1525, Holungen was destroyed during the course of the German Peasants' War.

The period until the German Empire
The Thirty Years' War arrived and reached Holungen, and in 1626, much devastation was caused by the army of Duke Christian of Brunswick. In 1701, Prussia became a kingdom, but Eichsfeld and Holungen remained subordinate to the Electorate of Mainz. Between 1740–1786 Eichsfeld took up arms in the service of Austria against Frederick the Great and fought against Prussia. Many inhabitants of Holungen were involved in these wars or were enlisted with the “Kurmainzischen Husarencorps” (Hussar Corps of the Electorate of Mainz). Thus even today there are still some Holungen surnames in Vienna. In 1802, Eichsfeld was finally annexed to Prussia. This took place on 3 August, the birthday of the King of Prussia Frederick William III.

Prussian rule lasted only for four years and ten weeks, up to the years 1806 and 1807, when Prussia was nearly completely destroyed. In addition, half of its constituent states, as well as its status as a great power, were taken from it. In 1806, Prussia lost the Battle of Jena-Auerstedt, with the result that, in December that year, Napoleon took possession of the two Eichsfeld districts, including Holungen. Frederick William III fled with his wife and the princes to Memel. The French required masses of supplies, which the Holungers had to furnish. In 1807, Eichsfeld became part of the Kingdom of Westphalia with its capital at Kassel. On 1 January 1808 the Napoleonic Code came into effect. Young men had to serve in the French army. During this period, many troops marched through Eichsfeld and settled in Holungen. After the struggle for liberty, Eichsfeld was returned to Prussia. ‘Ordered’ laws were created, and Worbis received their own city and regional courts. Holungen was assigned to the judicial office (Gerichtsamt) at Gerode. At that time Holungen had 650 inhabitants. In 1841, Holungen received its first Kaplan, literally “Chaplain”, a term used in German to mean a Roman Catholic priest in the first few years after his ordination. Since 28 January 1844, full Mass has been held every Sunday and Saint's Day.

In 1848, the year of many attempted revolutions in large parts of Europe, violence in the district of Worbis was widespread, leading to the formation of Bürgerwehren (vigilante militia groups), under the control of the mayor in each village. The vigilantes were equipped with pikes, sabres and rifles. One year later the setting up of the Grundbuchamt (lit. land register office) in the district court of Worbis was completed. Cholera came to Worbis district in 1850. Most deaths occurred in neighbouring Weißenborn, Holungen was only minimally affected. In September 1855, the king visited many places in the district. During the wars of independence, the Eichsfeld had suffered much, leading to crop failures and widespread illness. Holungen received money from the king for the reconstruction of several burned-down houses. On 2 February 1861, King Frederick William IV died, and his brother William I took his place. In the same year, the shooting club was formed, and the Chaussee (main road) was extended over the Graseforst. The Holungers were dissatisfied with this extension, since they had supported a different route, one which would have been more favourable for the area but had been dropped. In February 1865, this led to a big court case, which the Holungers lost. The Chaussee led from Worbis over the Sonnenstein to Gerode and was half-an-hour further away than the old road, which almost completely cut Holungen off from long-distance traffic.

The period of the German Empire
The years 1870 and 1871 saw the Franco-Prussian War, and on 30 January 1871, Germany became an empire under the Prussian King William I. The soldiers returned home with the Iron Cross, the Kriegsgedenkmünze (War Service Medal) and other service decorations. Many Kriegskameradschaften (veterans’ groups) were formed, and later joined by a Kriegerverein (veterans’ association). In Holungen, support for Kaiser Wilhelm was very high. This was due in large part to the fact that a Holunger (Josef Hildebrandt), was the Kaiser's driver from 1861–1888. At this time, Holungen had approximately 650 inhabitants, two nursery gardens, one Hirtenhaus (lit. shepherd's house), one school, one local pub (Am. inn) and one fire pond. It covered roughly 98 acres / 40 hectares (196 Äcker).

On 1 April 1876, rector Friedrich Polak from Nordhausen was appointed out as the school inspector. Holungen received a second teacher and a new school was built. In March 1871 land plots on all the farmland were remeasured. Due to the differing altitudes it was possible that there were differences in the measurements, but in 232 cases the permissible difference was exceeded. In 100 cases it amounted to even twice the limit. The owners gave the land over to the Separationsverfahren (roughly, the process of crop rotation) and “had it given back afterwards” (uncertain literal translation of “und ließen es sich hinterher zurückgeben” from German original), as a result of which the total area of farmland was reduced. In 1906, it became apparent that roughly 90 acres / 36 hectares (180 Äcker) of Holungen, which were actually registered in the land registry, were missing. In 1925, the land was recorded twice, one for the forest treasury and the other for the municipality of Weißenborn. Holungen objected, but without any success.

In June 1890, a Church-building Society was founded in Holungen, and one year later the building of the church began. The stones were supplied from the nearby quarry at Wehnberg. A teacher from Holungen began rehearsals of stageplays with the young people from the village and put on performances in neighbouring villages to support the construction of the church. On 20 June 1893, Holungen was consecrated by suffragan bishop (Weihbischof) Dr. Augustinus Gockel. One year later, the registry office was moved from Bischofferode to Holungen. In 1895, the road to Bischofferode was built, with Holungen receiving support from the Landesbauinspektion (roughly State Construction Inspectorate) at Mühlhausen. In 1896, Holungen received a new church organ. One year later, the church tower was hit by lightning, and repairs were still under way when the new church bell was installed, the old bell having cracked during ringing. In 1899, the Holunger Gesangsverein, a singing association, was created. 1908 saw opening of Potash Shaft 1 at the Thomas Müntzer potash mine.

Holungen during the two World Wars
Holungen was largely unaffected by direct action of the two World Wars. In the First World War, 160 Holungers were conscripted. 36 men did not return home. A memorial was erected in their memory in the church under the tower.

In the Second World War, men from Holungen fought in Poland, France and the Soviet Union, among other places. In total, 47 men from Holungen died during the Second World War. The village itself only felt the effects of the war just before its end. An aerial mine was dropped nearby, and several aircraft shot down by the Luftwaffe. Holungen remained entirely untouched by enemy air attacks. Several inhabitants had to pay fines for not fully blacking out their windows. In spring 1945, German troops were being pushed back, and on 14 March Holungen found itself billeting many soldiers from both Flak and Infantry units, bringing the parish into the war zone. At around 11 o’clock on the night of 9th to 10 April combat erupted. Flak cannon fired at enemy aircraft during a three-hour period, although there were fairly long pauses during that time. Both the inhabitants and buildings of Holungen remained undamaged.

On 11 April the American advance reached Holungen, the German troops having fled the previous day. When the news of the American approach became known, the mayor and the parish vicar went out to meet the approaching troops. As the first vehicles neared them, the two men went up to the Americans and asked them to spare Holungen. They explained that there were no more German soldiers left in the village, and that Holungen would offer no resistance. The inhabitants had hoisted a white flag with a red cross atop the church tower.

American troop movements continued through the area until 18 April, with the tank columns taking the first three days to pass through. The inhabitants could only use the main street between noon and 1 p.m. each day, and all the streets in the village were torn up by tank tracks. On 4 July 1945, Russian soldiers arrived in Holungen, the village lying only 10 km from the border with the British occupation zone (see this page about the GDR for a map of the zones). On 20 August the majority of the Russian troops withdrew and only a small garrison remained.

East Germany, Reunificiation and the mines
Thanks to the strongly held Catholic faith in the Eichsfeld, particularly in Holungen, the SED found it difficult to get a foothold in the area. Nevertheless, the GDR controlled everything. The situation was made worse by the proximity of Holungen to the Grenzsperrgebiet, the closed military exclusion zone that ran along the East German side of the border with the West. The neighbouring villages of Brehme and Jützenbach were located within this zone. This zone, part of a complex border system which extended several kilometres into the GDR, was intended to catch people trying to escape across the border to the West before they reached the actual border fences. Tourists were not permitted entry. Only those who lived in the zone or were visiting relatives in the zone, and had the necessary permits, could enter, making life additionally difficult for the many Holungers with friends and relatives living in the zone.

In the GDR period, the potash mine, now known as the “Thomas Müntzer” mine, was the largest employer in the region. From 1955 to 1961 the number of employees rose from 25 to nearly 300. Even in 1939, the mine had been the main potash source for the German war effort and was considered to be “Rüstungsindustriestufe SS” (“Armaments Industry – SS level”). It was the only mine delivering 98 to 99% by weight potassium chloride at the highest purity grade. These salts were used to produce explosives and other compounds important for the war effort. In 1977, the potassium salt was granted the “K1 price supplement” due to its consistent quality, receiving the “Q” quality mark two years later. From 1985 onwards the mine was the sole supplier of car seat position adjusters for the Wartburg. The mine also produced skylights and artificial fertiliser. In 1993, the mining company was closed. The closing of mine shafts resulted in nationwide attention for the potash miners, who took part in a lot of industrial action (Hunger strikes and a march to Berlin) under the slogan “Bischofferode ist überall” (“Bischofferode is everywhere”). Mining was of great importance for the neighbouring villages and created over 1,000 jobs. The economy of the region was slow to recover from this shock. Even though the mine was better-known in connection with Bischofferode, a large part of the operation was located in Holungen.

In Holungen after the “Wende” (Reunification), several streets were renovated. Many households got a telephone connection, mains gas, etc. In 1995 the second Eichfeld “Trachtenfest” (festival at which traditional costume is worn) was celebrated in Holungen. This festival resulted in various improvements to the village, for example the square around the pond and the fire station was redesigned.

Population
In 1900, Holungen numbered 671 people in 104 households. Each household had, on average, 5 to 7 people. Up to the start of the First World War, the number of inhabitants rose slowly. After the war, the increase continued as many people sought refuge in Holungen. From 1925 to 1940 the population declined. During the Second World War, many evacuees arrived, and so in 1945 the population exceeded a thousand for the first time, reaching 1,092 residents. In 1947, the population reached 1,332, which still stands as the highest-ever number today. After this time the total population decreased again slowly. In 1964, there were 1,080 people in 315 families. The number of extended families decreased ever more quickly. In 1978, the population was again below a thousand, rising above this again in 1983. In the Reunification year of 1990, it lay at 948, thereafter fluctuating around 1,000. In 2001 the number was 991, and at the start of 2003 only 978.

Population Data
Changes in population (31 December):
 * Source: Thuringia State Office for Statistics

People
Holungen-born:
 * Dr. Hermann Iseke (1856–1907) poet of the “Eichsfelder Sang” and other works.
 * Anton Thraen (1843–1903) gave names to minor planets including 442 Eichsfeldia and 443 Photographia

Associations
The largest associations in Holungen are the Male Singers’ Society Einigkeit (Unity), the Church Choir Sankt Cäcilia (St Cecilia) the Local History Society Dr. Hermann Iseke Holungen, the Thomas-Müntzer-Kaliverein Bischofferode e.V. (Thomas Müntzer Potash Association of Bischofferode [Registered Charity]) and the Sports Association Blau-Weiß Holungen (Holungen Blue-and-White). Several traditions date back to the 19th century.

The Sports Association has had some success at faustball, the women's team having been GDR Champions twice, although faustball is no longer played in Holungen. The men's football team plays in Thüringen 2. Kreisklassen (Kreis Eichsfeld), Staffel 1 (Thuringia 2nd District classification (Eichsfeld district), group 1). Here, too, past youth teams have had some success (District Champions, District Cup Winners, District Indoor Football Champions). Thanks to several year groups being under-represented in the village, Holungen is currently arranging Spielgemeinschaften (joint teams) with other villages (JSG Bodetal: Bode Valley Youth Joint Team).

In 1864 the Holungen Shooting Club was founded, although after the two World Wars a refounding wasn't permitted. In spite of this, Holungen still has its shooting range. A similar situation holds for the amateur dramatics group, which had been known throughout the region – despite putting on a few performances after Reunification, it eventually folded.

title: Holungen


text:
JV

JV may refer to:

People

 * Jonas Valančiūnas, Lithuanian basketball player
 * Jonathan Velasco, Australian basketball player
 * Jack Valenti, former head of the Motion Picture Association of America
 * Jeff Vandergrift, host of radio show The Dog House (talk show)
 * Jonathan Vaughters, American cycling team manager and former racing cyclist
 * Justin Verlander, a pitcher for the Houston Astros of Major League Baseball
 * Jacques Villeneuve, a Formula 1 World Champion of 1997
 * Jaclyn Victor, first Malaysian Idol winner
 * John Virgo, snooker player and commentator
 * Jason Voorhees, a fictional character in the Jason horror films
 * Justin Vernon, a musician and a member of the bands Bon Iver and Volcano Choir
 * Jesse Ventura, a former pro-wrestler and the 38th governor of Minnesota
 * JV Ejercito (born 1969), Filipino politician

Other uses

 * JV, a series of synthesizers released by the Roland Corporation during the early 1990s
 * JV!, a Russian media company owned by Mikhail Prokhorov
 * Jesuit Volunteer Corps
 * Joint venture, a strategic alliance between two or more parties to undertake economic activity together
 * Bearskin Airlines (IATA code JV)
 * Java, an Indonesian island
 * Javanese language (ISO 639 alpha-2 symbol JV)
 * Junior varsity team, the level below varsity in high school sports
 * Judicial vicar, the head of an ecclesiastical tribunal

title: JV


text: User talk:80.144.162.25

title: User talk:80.144.162.25


text:
British Rail Class 85

The British Rail Class 85 (also known by the designation AL5) is an electric locomotive that was designed and produced at British Rail’s (BR) Doncaster Works during the early 1960s. While largely developed by BR, much of its systems can be attributed to the British manufacturing interest Associated Electrical Industries (AEI).

The locomotive was developed as a part of the programme of works to electrify the West Coast Main Line during the late 1950s and early 1960s. BR deliberately opted to procure multiple batches of locomotives from a range of manufacturers, leading to the procurement of five prototype classes (Classes 81-85) and subsequently placed a larger order for a refined model of one of these, eventually leading to the development of the Class 86 locomotive.

The Class 85 proved to be a relatively reliable workhorse of the London Midland region, particularly following a refurbishment during the 1970s that saw the replacement of their rectifiers. Some members of the type were in service for thirty years, their withdrawal having commenced during the mid 1980s and lasting into the early 1990s, having been effectively displaced by the arrival of newer types such as the and later. Following the retirement of the Class 85, a single example was preserved.

Background
During the late 1950s, British Rail (BR) embarked upon the electrification of the West Coast Main Line, a strategy which necessitated the procurement of a large number of electric locomotives to utilise the newly-installed infrastructure. A detailed specification, listing various performance attributes for such a locomotive, was produced by the British Transport Commission.

It was decided that, instead of a bulk order from a single manufacturer, several batches of similar locomotives would be ordered from several companies, the first of these being the AL1 series. Further contracts were awarded, including one to BR's own Doncaster Works, to procure a similar locomotive, thus resulting in the Class 85. Under the earlier BR classification, the type was given the designation AL5 (meaning the fifth design of 25 kV AC locomotive), and locomotives were numbered E3056–E3095.

While BR planned had intended for this procurement strategy to have led to work being spread out to a variety of different manufacturers, many of the systems used across the different prototype classes were similar or in some cases identical, having been supplied by the same firm, the Metropolitan-Vickers division of the British manufacturing group Associated Electrical Industries (AEI). Between 1961 and 1964, a total of forty such locomotives were constructed, all of which were built at Doncaster.

Design
The Class 85 is an AC electric locomotive intended for express services on the West Coast Main Line. Its design bore considerable similarities to the earlier British Rail Class 81, particularly in terms of their shared AEI-supplied equipment. One key area of difference was its adoption of semiconductor-based rectifiers and a rheostatic braking system; the latter was viewed as likely to generate considerable cost savings in comparison to conventional braking by reducing wheel wear. A small proportion of the locomotive's equipment, such as the bogies, were designed by the French industrial group Alstom.

In order to achieve the minimal weight requirement stipulated by BR, while still maintaining sufficient structural strength, the lower halves of the body sides were merged into the locomotive's underframe, while the roof and sides above the base of the windows were built from a relatively light steel frame with an aluminium covering. The underframe is a welded steel assembly divided into seven box-like sections, while the bogie frame is built from rolled steel members that were welded together. On the outer faces of the underframe, the coupler and oleo-pneumatic buffers were fitted. The locomotive was seated upon each bogie via a double-ended rubber cone-shaped pivot, the alignment of which was defined by a transverse spring anchorage. Much of the weight was carried by two sets of four spring-loaded side-bearers, which used rubber brushes wherever practical to eliminate the need for lubrication.

The Class 85 featured a sizeable power compartment, of which particular attention was paid to making it as accessible for maintenance purposes as was realistically possible. The bulk of the equipment was installed within two compartments, one containing the rectifier apparatus and the other accommodated the main transformer and associated equipment, while a walkway spanned the length of the power compartment for access purposes. Above the transformer was its roof-mounted radiator and cooling fans, while the braking resistors and motor contactor panel were positioned close by. In between the transformer unit and the rear bulkhead was the brake compressor, primary air reservoir, and the fault indicator panel. On the opposite side of the power compartment, next to the forward bulkhead, was the auxiliary compressor, battery charging apparatus, and a chemical toilet for the locomotive crew.

Power was delivered to the locomotive via overhead catenary, which was always energised at 25,000 V AC. However, the main transformer, which was normally operated with the four windings in series, could be operated at 6.25 kV AC with the transformer windings in parallel. This voltage was intended to be used where limited clearances gave concern over use of the higher voltage arcing onto lineside structures, especially those made of cast iron. Since the clearances were found to be adequate, the lower voltage connections were locked out of use. A standardised Stone-Faiveley AMBR pantograph was adopted for the type, which was raised using pressurised air, the power for which was provided via the battery-powered auxiliary air compressor.

Driver's cabs are provided at both ends of the locomotive. The cabs are of double-skin construction, with a sheet steel exterior around a steel frame, and an inner lining of plastic-faced plywood along with fibreglass mouldings for the ceiling. Asbestos was also applied for its thermal insulation and soundproofing properties; several electric heater units were also present each of the cabs. The driving controls, which conformed to BR's standard conventions of the era, were mounted on a sloped plastic-covered desk directly beneath the forward window; various instruments, light switches, indicators, and gauges lined the centre console. The master controller was to the right of the driver while the air brake controls were to the left.

Operational history
Upon their entry to service, the AL5 fleet was used to haul express trains on the then newly electrified West Coast Main Line, from Birmingham, to Crewe, Manchester Piccadilly, Liverpool, and later Preston. By 1965, electrification had spread south to London Euston, allowing for services to be extended shortly thereafter.

The first 30 Class 85 locomotives were built with germanium rectifiers in their power systems, after which the final 10 used silicon-based rectifiers instead. Silicon rectifiers were retrofitted across the whole fleet by the end of 1986.

In 1968, the type was reclassified as Class 85 as a result of BR's introduction of the TOPS numbering system. From 1971 onwards, locomotives were progressively renumbered into the 85001–85040 range. Fourteen locomotives were later converted for freight-only use, numbered in the 85/1 subclass. These locomotives were restricted to 80 mph.

Accidents and incidents

 * On 23 April 1983, 85027 caught fire while hauling a southbound intermodal train near Kings Langley. It was not returned to service.
 * On 13 October 1985, 85001 caught fire while hauling the 16:15 Euston to Manchester service.
 * On 27 April 1989, a passenger train hauled by 85012 was derailed near Northampton.

Preservation
One locomotive has been preserved, 85101 (having previously numbered E3061 & 85006) This locomotive is preserved by the AC Locomotive Group, who also have examples of Classes 81-84 and 86. at Barrow Hill Engine Shed. It was named to commemorate the 150th anniversary of Doncaster Works and is painted in Railfreight Distribution livery, a livery it never carried in service. Their intention is to eventually restore this locomotive to operational condition.

title: British Rail Class 85