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Talk:HDV

Untitled
Does anyone know how to do tables in Wikipedia so that you can also put in wiki hyperlinks?

The specification section of the HDV article needs hyperlinks but due to using the html 'pre' tag (in order to acheive two culumns) the hyperlinks are ignored.

Ericross

Hey Mikus, JVC isn't "THE ONLY" manufacturer of 720p cameras
Just thought you should know that. MC Dupree (talk) 15:04, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * JVC is the only manufacturer of 720p HDV cameras. This article is about HDV, rememeber? Mikus (talk) 18:55, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

HDV Compression
This section needs a little more data: exactly what is the bitrate of the compressed audio, and is there any sourcing data for the claim that (in the original version) the audio compression fools even people who claim to hear artifacts in 320kbps MP3 or (in my edited version) that the resulting audio is almost identical to the uncompressed audio? Are there any disputes about that? cluth 08:32, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I edited the video-compression description because it lacked some important context. Constant bitrate video isn't bad per se ... the problem is that the bitrate is below MPEG-2's sweet-spot for the chosen uncoded pixelrate (1280x720p30, 1440x1080p30.) I'm not sure why the article goes so far to mention "interframe coding" -- that is a feature/characteristic of MPEG-video in general, and seems redundant. I suppose it's significant when doing a side-by-side comparison of HDV with its non-interframe predecessor, DV? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.190.167.164 (talk) 02:42, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

 * Interframe coding is not required when using MPEG-2. Itraframe coding with MPEG-2 is perfectly legal. Actual uses: Sony IMX, Ikegami 100 Mbit/s MPEG-2, certain formats offered by Focus Enhancements. Same with AVC: you can have interframe AVCHD as well as AVC-Intra. Mikus (talk) 05:29, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Horizontal vrs Vertical resolution
"the spatial resolution of the human eye is less sensitive to differences in horizontal resolution than vertical resolution.

Do we have a reference for this? Efbasham 07:34, 12 October 2007 (UTC)In the field of high pressure house painting, users are told to always finish coat using vertical strokes with the spraygun. The reason given is that the eye becomes accustomed to reading along horizontal lines, and thus searches for them. The inevitable overlap in house painting results in small bands, which when kept vertical normally go un-noticed, while horizontal bands of the same size are quickly picked up by the human eye although no physiological reason exists for this.] I've heard it once before somewhere, but I am skeptical. I thought the reason for dropping horizontal resolution was that the vertical resolution was not truly 1080 due to the effect of interlace, and pixels are used most efficiently if horizontal and vertical resolutions match. (In other words, you won't notice the loss because the picture is already blurred vertically, and 1440 pixels blurs it horizontally to the same extent.) Algr 08:02, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I have observed that horizontal resolution is more important than vertical, because most images contain a lot of prominent vertical edges such as grass, trees, fences, etc. The argument for vertical blurring by line structure is no longer valid, now that most (plasma and lcd) displays present a sampled image in both directions. In the old days of the CRT, the picture was presented as samples vertically, but as a continuous function horizontally. This remained true even on digital broadcasts, since the video waveform was reconstructed to a continuous analog waveform by simple filtering before it reached the CRT. Now, resolution is lost in both directions because the image is presented as samples without the reconstruction filtering that is theoretically needed. We will not see the true resolution of HD until displays are available with at least twice the resolution of the signal in both directions (3840 x 2160 pixels) with digital reconstruction filtering, a fact that is not widely recognised. It is for this reason that SD video looks better on modern plasma displays than it ever could on CRT's - the image is finally being digitally reconstruction filtered prior to display, rather than just presented as samples (the samples are not the image, they are, strictly, a mathematical encoding of the image according to Nyquist theory). In practice, many other things (lenses, CCD's, processing circuits) reduce sharpness by causing a roll-off in spatial frequency response (also known as modulation transfer function), such that the full resolution of any video format is rarely realised. This is why movies look better than most video - they are shot to a higher resolution than the video, using the best lenses, and then re-sampled, giving a result with less roll-off in spatial frequency response as well as less aliasing. --Lindosland 12:26, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

My understanding is that the designers of HDV decided to reduce the horizontal resolution a little in order to stay within the 25Mbits/sec of the DV recording standard. This is acceptable since HDV camcorders do not represent the high-end of HD and so will not have the lenses needed for full 1080 line quality. Reducing both vertical and horizontal resolution to achieve the same end would have effectively created a new standard rather than just requiring simple interpolation in one direction. --Lindosland 12:38, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Inclusion of Panasonic HVX200 camera
I refer to the recent reversion, and my attempts to scale down (not entirely exclude) mention of the Panasonic HVX200 camera in the History section.

This camera is NOT an HDV camera. Why then must an entire paragraph be devoted to it in the "history of HDV"? I do believe it is relevant, but only insofar as it shows that a major player in the "prosumer" camera market decided NOT to go for the HDV standard, but try a different approach altogether.

It is relevant, but I think it is confusing to include it as it currently stands, because the average reader may assume that this camera is a slightly different kind of HDV camera.Anselan

The HVX200, if mentioned at all, should be described as an alternative to HDV for entry-level HD production - and hence should not be listed in the section labeled "HDV history." (Kevin Shaw, Aug. 7, 2007)

I also think it's really odd that a P2 card is compared to a MiniDV tape. I am tempted to change or remove the comparison... Burbble (talk) 15:27, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

HDV vs. brodcast HDTV
The comparison to (ATSC) broadcast HDTV were, in my opinion, off the mark. The bitrate of ATSC is limited to ~19 Mbps, whereas HDV/1080i is 25Mbps. But that is ONE factor out of many more, equally important factors. The HDTV-broadcast chain includes some pre-processing (deinterlacing, spatial filtering, de-noising, etc.), and the broadcast MPEG-encoder operates under a different set of rules (closed GOP, GOP-size, etc.) The conclusion is that while HDV/1080i's bitrate exceeds ATSC, it does not necessarily mean a superior picture.
 * My intention was to make clear the fact that any motion artefacts on HDV are absolutely negligible compared to the very obvious MPEG artefacts that viewers in the UK are familiar with on SD (Freeview) broadcasts where the bitrate is only 2 to 4Mbits/s. This is partly because any defects on HD will be on a finer scale, but also because the bitrate allocated to these broadcasts tends to be too low. --Lindosland 12:05, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

A comparison of HDV to HDTV broadcast signals is relevant in the sense that it reveals some similarities between the two, suggesting that HDV is a decent solution for independent video production. If MPEG2 encoding at 19 Mbps is good enough for broadcast HDTV delivery then it ought to be acceptable for recording purposes too - and the fact that HDV cameras are being used for several popular TV shows proves that point. (Kevin Shaw, Aug. 7 2007)

The comments about Apple Intermediate Codec being very lossy and giving no real time performance is simply untrue.

Choosing your ideal HDV Camcorder
Hi I've got an article about choosing an HDV camera for certain purposes: http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/public/articles.php?article=10 Fuutott 09:25, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Your article referenced above mixes HDV cameras with the HVX200 and XDCAM HD, neither of which are HDV-based. Also, the HVX200 isn't entirely "better on paper" than HDV alternatives, because its sensor has significantly fewer pixels (960x540) than competing alternatives (960x1080 for Sony, 1280x720 for JVC and 1440x1080 for Canon). This results in measurably less real-world resolution for the HVX200 in detailed tests, although that arguably evens out somewhat when motion artifacts for HDV are taken into account. Also note that Discovery HD (and possibly other networks) has decided to classify the HVX200 with HDV cameras in terms of acceptability of content for HD projects. The HVX200 isn't particularly any better as a *camera* than HDV alternatives, it just uses a more robust recording format. The Sony XDCAM EX due out at the end of 2007 should be technically better than other HD cameras under $10K due to its larger sensor size, but it remains to be seen what the quality of footage it produces will be like. (Kevin Shaw, Aug. 7, 2007)

Deinterlacing and web section
The deinterlacing and web section is rather poorly written to be frank. For example, it claims that PC's don't support interlaced content properly which AFAIK isn't true since a number of options are available for realtime deinterlacing including hardware accelerated. And of course, PC users do have the option of doing non-real time deinterlacing. I don't know how these compare to plasma but they are there. Another problem section:

 * It is not impossible to achieve good results though, if the correct methods are used to deinterlace the footage. See the examples on this page. The showcase material is of course all from film, and therefore 24p to begin with, avoiding the deinterlace problem.

This appears to be saying it's possible to achieve good results (which isn't a surprise), look at the examples. But wait, the examples weren't actually deinterlaced... Say what?

I actually question whether this section is needed and if it is, in such depth. This appears to be related to HD video and interlacing and the web in general. Not HDV specifically. As such, I would suggest it's best covered in another article Nil Einne 10:54, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

--

I agree that the deinterlacing section is poorly written. For example, the statement that WMP does a poor job deinterlacing is completely misguided because WMP doesn't actually ever perform deinterlacing on its own - that is the job of the decoder or renderer, not the player. Also, the statement that quality deinterlacing takes a "whole night" is obviously subjective and based on one person's experience on their own computer.

I would suggest that a topic be included which deals with whether all cameras which claim 1080p  are equal ? e.g Panasonic AG-HVX200 which claims 720p vs. Panasonic AJ-HDC27H which also claims 1,280 x 720. Is the result the same? If not, why ? These are questions which could be addresed as a separate topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.43.236.118 (talk) 10:31, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Inaccuracies and Redundancies
I have a few suggestions as to how we may make this article even better.

 * 1) As somebody mentioned above, if a camera is not true HDV, then it should be omitted from the article.  e.g. the Panasonic DVCPRO HD cameras.
 * 2) The discussion on MPEG 2 should only go so far as to say that HDV uses Long GOP MPEG-2 at 25mbps, and any other technical details related to recording MPEG 2 to tape (i.e. tape dropout, etc).  Any discussion of MPEG-2 should use the standard MPEG-2 nomenclature, i.e. I frames, B frames, P Frames, where relevant.  The term "key frame" should not be used in this article at all, seeing as "Key Frame" has a different meaning depending on the context, and in the context of Video it can refer to animation key frames as well as I frames.  The structures and other in-depth technical details of MPEG 2 should be referenced to the article on MPEG 2.
 * 3) The "Overview" section is probably a little too broad for an overview section.  There are several redundancies between that section and the "HDV Compression" section.
 * 4) Perhaps the "Notes regarding specific camcorder models" section should be expanded to include Canon's 24F and 30F (instead of 24P and 30P) formats on their pro camcorders (XH-A1, XH-G1, XL-H1).  Once I get my XH-A1 and have worked with it a while, I will add to this section.
 * 5) Perhaps we should add a section about HDV in relation to other HD formats such as HDCAM and AVCHD.
 * 6) I agree that the "Deinterlacing and Web" section should probably be removed, seeing as it has very little to do with actual HDV and more to do with HD Video and Non-linear editing.

These are just some suggestions. Opinions? If there is no feedback on these, I will begin implementing some of them soon.

Dormous 16:15, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Dormous' changes. Perhaps we should consder creating a sort of HD Format disambiguation page. There seems to be alot of splill over from one page to the other and it makes some of the pages pretty confusing. The DV page for example talks about DV, HDV and DVCPROHD all at once even though the later two have thier own pages.

HDV and WMV confusion
The article currently says "HDV has the potential to look extremely good on the Web, using 6 to 8 Mbits/s as demonstrated on the Microsoft WMV HD showcase site". This doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, since HDV uses older MPEG-2 coding technology while WMV HD is a much more modern codec design. It should therefore be clear that the fact that some level of quality can be achieved with some number of bits per second using WMV HD does not indicate that the same quality can be achieved with HDV (i.e., MPEG-2) at those bit rates. In fact it should probably be taken as evidence that such quality cannot be achieved at those bit rates with HDV. Perhaps the statement is meant to say something else, but I don't know what it was attempting to say. -Pangolin 05:54, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Sounds to me like an attempt to point out that HDV source can yield very nice HD web content using more compressed delivery codecs. Given that MPEG4 encoding is considered ~2-3 times as efficient as MPEG2, it makes sense to talk about compressing HDV for web delivery to around 1/3 the bit rate. What's not clear about this is whether any of the content on the Microsoft HD demo site came from HDV cameras. (Kevin Shaw, 8/7/07)

Canon
I have cleaned up the ever-(r)evolving Canon HV-line section: reformatted the text, official product links have been moved to the external links, links have been added to Wiki product pages, added HV40 and removed Vimeo from HV30's 30P references due to the fact that Vimeo's enco0der is locked at 24 fps.Szlevi (talk) 14:56, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Product section
I restored the Product section, deleted by KelleyCook without leaving any comment here. He claimed WP:NOTCATALOG but the policy specifically mentions listing things that hasd great influence on the subject or are notable some other way.Szlevi (talk) 05:22, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Use in Broadcast Television
Removed references to HDV being a "non-HD" format as described in some broadcast specification documents. While it is true that these documents make such statements, they're poorly worded in that HDV *is* an HD recording format by any sensible definition. It's one thing to say that HDV isn't accepted for some particular purpose and quite another to call it "non-HD" - hence quoting this is a mistake regardless of the source.

Reverted good faith edits

 * "DV cassette tape" is the official term, see the reflink.
 * "Direct to disc recording" is a marketing term, while the generic name for storage media is "hard disk drive".
 * I believe that "on-camera" is more up to the point in this particular case.
 * No need to empasize "video" tape, it is obvious, we are talking about tape-based video format.
 * "onto file-based tapeless camcorders" makes no sense at all. The point is recording on tape and onto file-based media on the SAME camcorder, not using several camcorders. Mikus (talk) 05:25, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Edits by CDMIKELIS
These comments were added to the article by CDMIKELIS:

--

(*) Most of editing software can't cut exactly as GOP structure is, so recompressing of clip is done even when using only plain cuts. Real life editing requires at least some titles. So recompression is unavoidable in any real life situation and compressing footage again in HDV (22,5:1) degrade quality. Probably hard to see for untrained eyes when footage is made in ideal light, but again most real life siatuation (indoor, etc) with a lot of noise involved, suffers with every compression. Keeping original footage (on HDV tapes, or m2t files on HDD) and edited "project" or EDL, is recommended for later use. It can be always compressed to than needed format, from original; making only ONE(**) generation.

(**) A generation or recompressing is made at every rendering; if multiple filters or titles (or picture in picture) is used, that means so much "generations" of footage. Here is where good intermediate codec is better option: one generation to much less compressed intermediate codec is better than making 5-6 re-compression in MPEG-2 during editing process and final re-compression to even more compressed HDV.

--

 * First, this is not a forum or an email thread, you cannot throw in your comments like this, you must integrate them in the article and provide sufficient proof.
 * I integrated your comment about long-GOP nature of HDV. Indeed, even with straight cuts non-destructive editing can be done only by cutting between GOPs. I use Vegas, I don't know whether it is able to do that. On another hand, VirtualDub allows doing just that: it allows skipping over GOPs and cutting out unneeded fragments, then saving back to a stream with no recompression. VirtualDub may not even know much about the encoder, it just cuts out full GOPs from a container file, so all it really has to know is how the container works. Such an editing is lightning fast. tsMuxer has similar functionality too, though I am not sure whether it works on a container level, or on encoder level, it does not explicitly offer "cut on GOP" option, but in my experience trying to cut up to a millisecond does not work, tsMuxer always pads a bit. So I suppose that it works on GOP margins as well. Cannot prove it though.
 * Your comment on creating a separate generation for each filter if native video is used has no merit. Why MPEG-2 would be re-rendered between the effects, while say Cineform does not? After all, both of these are encoding methods, and any half-decent NLE should work universally with either. From what I know, most decent NLEs decode source video into uncompressed format internally as they go on, then apply ALL filters to this uncompressed video and then either display the result (in preview mode) or send it to a renderer (in render mode). So there is no real benefit for using intermediate codecs besides maybe some speed advantages, and also for sending your half-finished renders to other guys, so whenever multiple re-rendering is actually needed, it would hold better than MPEG-2. Please do not add this controversial (at best, though I think it is simply incorrect) "information" back to the article. If you want to argue, please post your finding here first. Maybe they do hold true for SOME NLEs. Mikus (talk) 21:43, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 7 external links on HDV. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090216151329/http://www.hdv-info.org/page2.htm to http://www.hdv-info.org/page2.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090417054513/http://www.hdv-info.org/trademk.htm to http://www.hdv-info.org/trademk.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110516114103/http://dhd.discovery.com/guidelines/gallery/guidelines.pdf to http://dhd.discovery.com/guidelines/gallery/guidelines.pdf
 * Added tag to http://books.jvcservice.com/Download/903683488/LWT0278-001B-H.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100809075542/http://www.cnet.com.au/hd-tv-resolution-explained-339271051.htm to http://www.cnet.com.au/hd-tv-resolution-explained-339271051.htm
 * Added archive https://archive.is/20120803113147/http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/sony-hvr-v1-hdr-fx7/82350-explained-24-verses-24a.html to http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/sony-hvr-v1-hdr-fx7/82350-explained-24-verses-24a.html
 * Added tag to http://www.papahui.com/download.pdf
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20040923122525/http://www.hdv-info.org/ to http://www.hdv-info.org/

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title: Talk:HDV


text:
Lufthansa Flight 540

Lufthansa Flight 540 was a scheduled commercial flight for Lufthansa, serving the Frankfurt–Nairobi–Johannesburg route.

On 20 November 1974, the Boeing 747-130 that was operating as Flight 540 was carrying 157 people (140 passengers and 17 crew members) crashed and caught fire shortly after taking off from Jomo Kenyatta International Airport in Nairobi for the last leg of the flight, resulting in the deaths of 55 passengers and 4 crew members. This was the first fatal accident involving a Boeing 747.

Aircraft

The aircraft involved was a Boeing 747-130 registered as D-ABYB and was named Hessen. It was the second 747 to be delivered to Lufthansa. It made its first flight on 30 March 1970 and was delivered to Lufthansa on 13 April the same year. The aircraft was powered by four Pratt and Whitney JT9D-7 turbofan engines. The aircraft had 16,781 flying hours at the time of the accident.

Crew
The flight crew consisted of 53-year-old Captain Christian Krack (who had more than 10,000 flight hours, with 1,619 hours on the Boeing 747), 35-year-old First Officer Hans-Joachim Schacke (3,418 flight hours, with more than 2,000 hours on the Boeing 747) and 51-year-old Flight Engineer Rudolf "Rudi" Hahn (13,000 hours of flying experience).

Accident
As the aircraft was making its takeoff from runway 24 at the Jomo Kenyatta International Airport in Nairobi, the pilots felt a buffeting vibration. The captain continued the climb and retracted the landing gear. However, as this was being done, the aircraft started to descend and the stall warning system light came on. The aircraft continued to descend and approximately 3700 ft from the end of the runway, the 747 airplane crashed in the grass. It then struck an elevated access road and broke up. The left wing exploded and fire spread to the fuselage. 55 of the 140 passengers and 4 of the 17 crew members died.

Cause
The cause of the crash was determined to be a stall caused by the leading edge slats (strictly speaking, outboard variable camber leading-edge slats and inboard Krueger flaps) having been left in the retracted position. Even though the trailing edge flaps were deployed, without the slats being extended the aircraft's stall speed was higher and the maximum angle of attack was lower. As a result, the aircraft was unable to climb out of ground effect. The flight engineer was found to have failed to open the slat system bleed air valves as required on the pre-flight checklist. This prevented bleed air from flowing to the 747's pneumatic slat system and, since the leading edge slats on the 747 are pneumatically driven, kept it from deploying the leading edge slats for takeoff. The takeoff warning system, which would have sounded an alarm if the flaps had not been set for takeoff, did not have a separate warning that the slats' pneumatic valve had not been opened by the flight engineer.

The faulty state of the slats should by design have been indicated by yellow warning lights: one for the pilot, and eight for the flight engineer. However, both crew members stated in court that these lights had been green. Three possible explanations have since been offered for this inconsistency: that the morning sun was blinding the cockpit crew and thus hampered color perception, that a construction error could have caused green lights despite the retracted slats, and that the crew lied. None of these possibilities could be conclusively proven. The flight crew was blamed for not performing a satisfactory pre-takeoff checklist, but the accident report also faulted the lack of adequate warning systems that could have alerted the crew to the problem. Two previous occurrences of this error had been reported, but in those cases the pilots had been able to recover the aircraft in time. After this third, deadly incident, Boeing added systems to warn pilots if the slat valve had not been opened prior to takeoff.

Captain Krack and flight engineer Hahn were dismissed from Lufthansa shortly after, but their dismissals were overturned by a labor court, as no investigation report was available to rule out the possibility of a technical defect.

Flight engineer Hahn was charged with criminal negligence, but was acquitted in 1981. The accident was the first fatal crash involving a Boeing 747.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Lufthansa Flight 540


text:
File:Fletcher munson elc.png

Made myself in Inkscape by tracing over original Fletcher-Munson scan. Not exact, but is roughly accurate.

title: File:Fletcher munson elc.png


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Fort Smith, Northwest Territories

Fort Smith (Thebacha "beside the rapids") is a town in the South Slave Region of the Northwest Territories (NWT), Canada. It is located in the southeastern portion of the Northwest Territories, on the Slave River and adjacent to the Alberta border along the 60th parallel north.

History
Fort Smith was founded around the Slave River. It served a vital link for water transportation between southern Canada and the western Arctic. Early fur traders found a portage route, long established by indigenous peoples, from what is now Fort Fitzgerald on the western bank of the Slave River to Fort Smith. This route allowed its users to bypass the four sets of impassable rapids (Cassette Rapids, Pelican Rapids, Mountain Rapids, and Rapids of the Drowned). The portage trail had been traditionally used for centuries by generations of local Indigenous peoples.

The make up of the Indigenous population of the region shifted as the fortunes of the tribes changed. By 1870, the Slavey had moved north and the Cree had occupied the Slave River Valley. The Chipewyan had also begun moving into the area.

Peter Pond of the North West Company was the first white trader recorded to have traveled on the Slave River and made contact with Indigenous peoples in this region. In the 1780s he established a post on Lake Athabasca called Fort Chipewyan, at the head of the Slave River. Dominated by the activities of the Hudson's Bay Company, the fur trade penetrated more deeply into the Mackenzie River district in the 19th century. York boats were used to run the Slave River rapids and, where needed, small portages were established to bypass the most dangerous areas. Nonetheless, serious mishaps were bound to happen. This section of the Slave River became known as 'The Rapids of the Drowned'.

In 1872, the Hudson's Bay Company built an outpost called Smith's Landing (Fort Fitzgerald) at the most southern set of the Slave River rapids. In 1874, another outpost was constructed at the most northern set of rapids. It was called Fort Smith. Both posts were named in honour of Donald Alexander Smith, who in August 1897, was elevated to the Peerage of the United Kingdom as The 1st Baron Strathcona and Mount Royal.

In 1876, the Roman Catholic Mission was moved from Salt River to Fort Smith while the community was prospering.

In 1886, the Hudson's Bay Company launched the steam-propelled vessel SS Wrigley to run from Fort Smith to the Mackenzie River. The steamer SS Grahame ran the Slave River from Fort McMurray to the head of the rapids at Smith's Landing beginning in 1882. In 1898, the Yukon Gold Rush brought many gold seekers over the portages and through Fort Smith. In 1908, a new HBC steamer paddlewheeler, SS Mackenzie River, was launched to operate on the Slave and Mackenzie rivers below Fort Smith (see boats of the Mackenzie River watershed).

In 1911, government was established in Fort Smith when Ottawa sent an Indian agent and a regional medical doctor, and the Royal Northwest Mounted Police opened a detachment. With these developments, Fort Smith became not only the transportation centre for the western Arctic but the administrative centre as well.

The mission sawmill produced lumber for the first hospital, St. Anne's, built in 1914 for the Grey Nuns. The sawmill also supplied the lumber for the first school, built in 1915. The Roman Catholic Mission also operated St. Bruno's Farm, which supplied produce, meat, and dairy products. Until it was closed in the 1920s, the farm supplied all the church's missions in the western Arctic. Its workers maintained a herd of more than 140 cattle.

Horse-drawn freight services were complemented by tractors in 1919, when the Alberta & Arctic Transportation Company, a subsidiary of Lamson & Hubbard Trading Company, commissioned two 75 hp tractors on the Slave River portage to haul commercial freight from one side of the rapids to the other.

With the discovery of oil at Norman Wells in 1920, a federal government administration building was constructed to house the new Northwest Territories branch and the first court of justice in the Mackenzie District. The Union Bank of Canada, making use of a tent, opened the first bank in the Northwest Territories in Fort Smith in June 1921. In 1920 the Lamson & Hubbard Trading Company launched Distributor to service its trading posts along the Mackenzie River. This group was taken over by the HBC in 1924. By the 1930s, a significant part of the Fort Smith economy was centred around ship and barge building. The HBC and Northern Transportation Company Limited (NTCL) established shipyards below Fort Smith.

Wood Buffalo National Park was established in 1922; its operations and administration headquarters were in Fort Smith.

In 1924, Fort Smith received the first of the Northwest Territories and Yukon Radio System installed by the Royal Canadian Corps of Signals. In 1928, Fort Smith Airport was built.

The discovery of gold in Yellowknife in 1938 was a catalyst for an economic boost to Fort Smith, as many prospectors came passing through and bought supplies at the post. In the same year, an Anglican Mission house was built; a church was built in 1939.

In 1942–1943, Fort Smith played a small part in the war effort when huge armies raged across the globe in the Second World War. With a population of 250, Fort Smith hosted 2,000 United States Army soldiers who were en route to the Canol Oil Pipeline Project at Norman Wells and the Canol Road. They brought hundreds of barge loads of supplies; and in order to move these, they built a tractor road from Fort Smith to Hay River and even farther north.

The continued gold fever that fuelled Yellowknife's growth also stimulated the five-fold growth of Fort Smith's population in the decade following 1945. Government administrative facilities were increased to keep up with population needs and the village developed as a transportation hub for the Mackenzie District.

Fort Smith was incorporated as a village in 1964; two years later, with a population of 2,130, the village became a town on October 1, 1966. The all-weather road to Hay River was officially completed in 1966, permanently linking Fort Smith to the south.

The completion of a southern rail link to Hay River in 1964 meant that Fort Smith's role as the transportation hub was largely negated. Shipping operations on the Slave River ceased in 1968.

When Yellowknife was designated as the territorial capital in 1967, Fort Smith was kept as the administrative centre of the government of the Northwest Territories' vast region. See history of Northwest Territories capital cities.

On Friday August 9, 1968, disaster struck Fort Smith when a landslide some 3300 by broke away from the riverbank; it caused property damage and killed one person. The riverbank area has since been sloped to stabilize it. Reshaped as a gentle hillside, it is known as Riverbank Park, and features groomed trails, picnic areas, and a viewing platform to oversee the Rapids of the Drowned.

In 1970, the Adult Vocational Training Centre was opened. Its operations were later expanded and in 1981 it became Thebacha College. A few years later, Arctic College was created by the government of the Northwest Territories. The Thebacha Campus was home to government headquarters offices. In 1995, the college changed its name to Aurora College in order to allow Nunavut the use of the Arctic College name for their tribal college.

Today, Fort Smith's economy is based on the federal, territorial, and aboriginal governments, along with education and tourism. In 2008, interest began to develop to re-establish a portage route to supply the Fort McMurray oilsands operations by river.

Geography
The town is approximately 300 km southeast of Yellowknife, the territorial capital. The park headquarters for Wood Buffalo National Park is located in Fort Smith. The headquarters and Thebacha Campus of Aurora College is located in Fort Smith; it is the largest of the three campus locations in the Northwest Territories. Fort Smith is located in the South Slave Region (administrative) and Region 5, Northwest Territories (census division). The town was previously in the Fort Smith Region census division.

Fort Smith is accessible all year long via the Fort Smith Highway. A winter road operates for several months to connect Fort Smith to Fort Chipewyan and from there to Fort McMurray. An all-weather road named Pine Lake Road links Fitzgerald.

Climate
Fort Smith has a dry continental subarctic climate (Koppen: Dfc) with very long winters combined with warm but relatively short summers.

The highest temperature ever recorded in Fort Smith was 39.9 C on June 30, 2021. The coldest temperature ever recorded was -57.2 C on December 26, 1917. These are both the hottest and coldest temperatures ever recorded in the Northwest Territories.

Demographics
In the 2021 Census of Population conducted by Statistics Canada, Fort Smith had a population of $2,248$ living in $881$ of its $1,009$ total private dwellings, a change of NaN% from its 2016 population of $2,542$. With a land area of 91.21 km2, it had a population density of in 2021.

Ethnicity
According to the 2016 census, the majority of people in Fort Smith (1,645) were Indigenous of which 920 were First Nations, 585 were Métis and 135 Inuit.

Language
The main languages are English, Chipewyan (Dene), Cree, Dogrib (Tłı̨chǫ), Slavey-Hare, Inuinnaqtun (Inuvialuktun) and Inuktitut.

Government
Local government consists of the Town of Fort Smith Council with 9 members (7 councillors, deputy mayor and mayor). The mayor works part-time and council is elected every three years. As of 2021 the current mayor of Fort Smith is Fred Daniels.

Fort Smith is represented by the Salt River First Nation #195 and are part of the Akaitcho Territory Government. As of June 2012, the Salt River First Nation had given the Akaitcho Territory Government the mandatory six months notice that they would be separating from the organization.

The Fort Smith Métis Council is the local representation for members of the Northwest Territory Métis Nation. In 1996, a framework agreement was signed with the government of the Northwest Territories and the government of Canada to commence negotiations on land, resources and self-government.

Attractions
Fort Smith is the home of the Northern Life Museum and the museum ship Radium King. Wood Buffalo National Park can also be accessed from Fort Smith.

Every year the South Slave Friendship Festival, a music and arts festival, occurs in Fort Smith, usually in August. Musicians and artists from across the Northwest Territories and many other faraway places come to interact with other artists and show off their talents to the public.

Many tourists come to see the world-class Slave River and many kayakers try its rapids.

Fort Smith Mission Park is a popular tourist attraction featuring historic buildings and a grotto from the Oblate Catholic Mission.

In the summer months, pelicans can be seen nesting on the various rapids near Fort Smith. Whooping cranes, an endangered species, also nest in the area during the summer and can be viewed via air charters as ground access is prohibited.

Education
There are a number of educational facilities in Fort Smith including Joseph Burr Tyrrell Elementary School, Paul William Kaeser High School and the Thebacha Campus of Aurora College. Additionally, the main office of the South Slave Divisional Education Council is located in the town.

Notable residents
Fort Smith is the birthplace of Mark Carney, former governor of both the Bank of England and the Bank of Canada.

title: Fort Smith, Northwest Territories


text:
Beedles Station, Ohio

Beedles Station was the first settlement in what was to become Warren County, Ohio, United States. A blockhouse was established there in 1795 in what is now Section 28, Town 4, Range 3 of the Between the Miami Rivers Survey in western Turtlecreek Township. This is on the west side of State Route 741 about a mile south of Otterbein. The settlement was named for William Beedle, an early settler. A historical plaque marks the site.

title: Beedles Station, Ohio


text:
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Archive 2

Structures
What about creating a template like the COTW template, but that specifically tags an article as being under active development by this wikiproject? -- Solitude 07:06, Oct 5, 2004 (UTC)

 * I think that is a great idea as it also would serve to bring contributors to the project. In fact something similiar got created in response to this this village pump discussion. Currently Template:Importantstub is up for deletion. So I think we ought to save it from deletion and amend so it refers to this wikiproject. Its not quite what you are talking about, but perhaps we need a stub template and work in progress template :ChrisG 07:28, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Template:Importantstub is still up for discussion and not deleted; I've just added my KEEP vote. I agree with Chris on the above; and maybe any rewording could replace the word "important" so as to give less offence to some of the current "delete" voters? Some circumlocution such as "improving the representativeness and comprehensiveness of Wikipedia". Preferably a little shorter than that. (:-) Robin Patterson 02:12, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I wonder whether Categories (rather than subpages) could be used to keep this project more manageable? Easier navigation up and down the tree, maybe? Robin Patterson 02:12, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Recruitment
I still say that the real key to this is recruitment. I have a lot of ideas of how we could work on recruiting more African-Americans into Wikipedia in general and this project in particular, but frankly not a clue about outreach to people from sub-Saharan Africa. But let me say: if we can't get a clear consensus that African-American topics are part of what's at issue, I'm not going to try to convince an African-American Studies undergrad that he or she has to learn all about Tanzania to be useful to this project when his/her own community is less covered than that of science fiction fandom.

Xed, I have no problem with you wanting to focus on the developing world. But unless and until we can get clear consensus that there is also an underrepresentation both in Wikipedia's participant pool and it's topic coverage for women and ethnic minorities in the developed world, I think many of those women and ethnic minorities will — entirely appropriately — view Wikipedia and this project as hostile territory. -- Jmabel 01:19, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)
 * Well I'm an ethnic minority, and I don't feel that I should write or think only about topics which are somehow connected to my genetic makeup. If fact, I cringe when people imply I should. Nor do I feel I am limited in subject matter by the shape of my genitals. People are surprisingly flexible. I don't feel I have to be protected from other subjects lest they frighten me. Also, the phrase 'ethnic minority' is not synonymous with just people of African descent who live in the US or UK. Now I've got that off my chest.... I agree that there is under-representation of women and ethnic minorities (though some minorities are probably over-represented), it's just a question of priorities. Recruiting more African-Americans into Wikipedia would be a good move. I hope the design below shows how amenable I am to your ideas.---Xed 02:02, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

General subjects that suffer from a U.S. or developed country perspective
One thing not really mentioned on the project page, and probably also harder to address, is the number of Wikipedia articles that only talks about the situation in the U.S., sometimes without even mentioning this. Public relations talks almost exclusively on U.S. examples and figures. Media_bias makes an attempt to discuss bias in general, then mainly concerns itself with the U.S. liberal vs. conservative bias discussion. Perspectives from the developing world could be very valuable here, not to mention a discussion on the situation in Russia. Much the same could be said about Freedom of speech.

Other articles manage to draw their examples from several countries, but still limit themselves more or less exclusively to the developed world. For good examples of this, see Lawyer and Breakfast (although the latter actually mentions a Muslim practice in the very last sentence).

Perhaps even more serious a shortcoming, Rape suffers from an extremely Western perspective. It starts by discussing the legal definitions of the U.S. and the UK only. Apart from brief mentions of the social consequences of rape in "societies with strong sexual customs and taboos", and rape as a means of torturing detainees in some countries, the rest of the article deals with the U.S. situation. There is not even a single mention of the practice of rape as a war crime!

Also, Adoption is strikingly Western in its perspective, not even mentioning the effect that widespread adoption from developing countries has had on the economy and social structure of these countries.

I'm not sure what to call this more subtle effect of systemic bias or how to bring it up on the project page. Should it go into a separate list, and if so, what should the title be? Does it need a discussion of its own? Alarm 01:41, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I think this is a major issue, and should be a major part of CSB. Most general subjects suffer from this effect. The US liberal vs conservative schism seems to permeate too many political articles, despite having very little meaning elsewhere. A list could be called "Internally biased articles" or something like that. If we end up going with the template design above then articles like Lawyer etc should really have a mark next to them, like ¡, to show that the bias is internal, with an explanation at the bottom of the table. Xed 03:17, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"Foreign" literature and Non-white figures in the U.S., UK, et
I have some problems with the terms used for two of the subject areas listed. In my opinion, "Foreign" literature does itself manifest a bias simply by the perspective implied in the term. I'd suggest "Non-English literature" or something similar, but that might exclude Indian and South African authors that is not adequately covered. Of course "Literature from the developing world" could be used, if we think that literature from Portugal is adequately covered as it is.

I'd like to change "non-white" into something that also include other minorities, and I see no good reason to limit the area to the U.S. and the UK. How about "Minority figures in developed countries" or perhaps just "Minority figures?" Alarm 01:57, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I would like to participate in this project, adding articles about African literature (a topic of particular interest to me). I recently added Bediako Asare and his novel Rebel and am eager to do some more. I hope some other people join me. List of African writers is a good place to start. Many important books are published by Heinemann's African Writers series and are easily available. Danny 02:16, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Great! On the literature front, I believe the term was mine, and I mainly meant "foreign-language" literature, although I doubt that English-language literature outside the U.S. and UK is at all well covered either. Developing world is an issue, but the problem goes way beyond that, unless your definition of "developing world" is awfully broad. For example, I would guess that I've single-handedly written more than half of what we've got on Argentine literature and at least a third of what we've got on Romanian literature, and I can promise that in both cases its barely the tip of the iceberg. While we are rather weak on even English-language literature from the developing world, we're already catching that in one category and don't really gain anything by catching it in two. Anyway, the phrase was mine, but I'm not attached to it, edit at will.

 * How about "Non-English language literature"? Alarm 03:09, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Sure, whatever. -- Jmabel 03:42, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

"Minority" without a qualification of "ethnic minority" is almost vacuous. We are all a minority of some sort (political, sexual, taste in beers, take your pick). No deep problem with what you're saying, as long as it's "ethnic minority" rather than just "minority". Maybe "Ethnic minorities in developed countries"?

Still, I'm not at all convinced that white minorities (which, as an ethnic Jew, I certainly am) are at all under-covered. I don't see Wikipedia as particularly weak on Jewish topics. Or those of most Central European ethnicities, or that of any number of other groups that happen to be well-represented in our participant pool. So call it what you will, but the pattern seems to me that most of the gaping holes vis a vis ethnicity in our coverage of the U.S. and UK correspond to the color line. -- Jmabel 02:37, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

 * How about hispanics? Do you agree with Xed's observation above? Anyway, I think "ethnic minority" at least sounds better than "non-white" (though I agree with you on the necessity of "ethnic"). Alarm 03:09, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Globally, whites are an ethnic minority, as are other groups. The term 'ethnic minority', as it is meant in these discussion, only seems to make sense from a North American and Euro outlook. Under-representation of individual groups within the systemic zone countries would have to be analysed---Xed 03:23, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * "Ethnic minority" is always in a context. Whites are not and ethnic minority, because "whites" collectively are not an ethnic group: arguably they are a race, but certainly not an ethnicity. Whiteness is a very tricky concept, and I think it is emphatically a social construct. 100 years ago, Jews in America were generally not considered "white". 150 years ago, the Irish in America were generally not considered "white". As for Hispanics: interesting case. The U.S. census doesn't consider them white, although many consider themselves white. As the number of Hispanics increases, the concept of "white" crosses interestingly with the concept of "Anglo". Consider the following sentence, which I heard quoted from a teacher in New Mexico: "There were only two Anglos in the class and both of them were black." I can honestly say that 40 years ago, almost no one in the U.S. would have included a Black person in the category of "Anglos". Yes, Hispanic-U.S. topics are almost certainly under-covered, probably more so than African-American topics. And Hispanic-American topics are certainly relevant here. (Parenthetically: "Hispanic Americans" is another tricky social construct: what does a typical immigrant from Buenos Aires really have in common with one from Mayaguez, other than a native language?) -- Jmabel 03:42, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

 * Interesting discussion, and probably the best place to bring up this. Am I the only one who grimaces everytime I see the use of the words "ethnic minority" on these pages? It always carries with it associations of negativity and supression to me. I also find it condescending, its a phrase that seems to isolate certain people and labels them as a minority --cgfoz 12:44, Oct 9, 2004 (GMT)

Issues to be resolved?

 * Voting mechanism. How are items for the voted items chosen - are there limitations for how many from each section (or could ten items be chosen from labor issues?) How is CSB cotw chosen? How are the two items at the end of each country (in carousel) chosen?
 * Page has too much manifesto and stuff describing the project. May be intimidating for new users. Some stuff is replicated in the template. Could be pruned to half the text. More functional, less textual.
 * Template box could be more terse too.
 * The items in the Open Task list could be in a list like this one.
 * How many key topics should we have?
 * Topics to add
 * Topics to remove. We need to prune the topics as we go along not just keep adding.

Voting mechanism
I think COTW should be voted on. But I think the rest of the articles on the todo list should just be cycled through from the list created in open tasks. Its more important to work out how often they should be cycled (weekly?) and who is responsible for the update. Maybe we should vote on who does that; and they should do that until they get voted out if people don't like the way they choose the articles. :ChrisG 16:03, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I'd strongly prefer voting on the items to someone single-handedly picking them. But my understanding was actually that all of these items were Collaborations of the Week - I'm not sure we should vote on a single COTW as well. On the other hand, I think 10 new items each week, which is what is currently stated, runs the risk of being a bit too much. At least until we know what improvement rate to expect from listed items. On the other hand participation might benefit from a wide choice. My suggestion would be to choose 5 new articles each week and to let them stay on for two weeks. I'd also say maximum one new item from each section per week (i.e. maximum two at the same time), to ensure a wide enough choice to encourage participation. Alarm 16:20, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

If we are going to vote on everything then I think the todo list should have one representative from each topic we identify, e.g. one developing world, one western centric, one feminism. I also think it should one person one vote. A person should not be able to vote for more than one topic, this will make selection far easier.:ChrisG 17:06, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think we should vote on a single COTW, with no one page ever coming up more than once every 8 weeks. For the rest, we can cycle among anything, try to distribute it across the various areas, and favor articles that already have more than one vote to be the COTW. -- Jmabel 20:17, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)
 * Ok, now I've actually read what is said on the project page about this ;-) . I understand that it would be rather silly to vote on both COTW and todo list topics. I'd agree with some kind of model that puts the topics with the most COTW votes on the todo list. Regarding the topics connected to carousel countries, I'm actually quite happy if someone with some knowledge of the specific country picks two suitable choices. If two or more people turn out to have conflicting opinions on what is suitable, we could always arrange a vote when that happens. Alarm 22:43, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * There surely are some problems with this method, but for now I'm happy to go with it. Have added explanation in voting section. --- Xed 22:57, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I can see some problems with this approach, but that is probably true of any other model as well. I just want to clarify that, by my last comment, I did not really envision a strict, formal rule that the 10 topics with the very highest number of COTW votes should be put on the todo list. I'm happy with the "soft" wording on the project page as it is. I guess we'll have to see what happens and adjust the model as we go along. Alarm 09:16, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Content on project page
I think its fine in terms of length; its a complicated project to run and needs some detailed explanation. Obviously it could be polished and improved. However, I think the todo list should be above the toc, re: discussion above, because it gives a quick overview of the project. :ChrisG 16:03, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Agreed. People will probably misunderstand what we're doing if we don't explain it well enough. The "manifesto" seems relevant as an analysis of what's wrong and a background for understanding what to look for. If there is a majority for pruning, I'd suggest moving the full text to a subpage where there is room for a deeper analysis. Alarm 16:20, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Disagree, but won't veto. Normally, introductions in Wikipedia are short. I'm unaware of any other WikiProject that puts its to-do list above the ToC: can someone show even one precedent for this? -- Jmabel 20:17, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

Template box should be terser
Since the to-do list is an advertisment as it were, it needs to be as interesting and attractive as possible. It doesn't need to be terser, unless it is forcing people to scroll the page. :ChrisG 16:03, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I'd say it has reached "unenbarrassing" as it is and that editing the template box could be done after we've "gone live". Alarm 16:20, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Once the project is even a month under way, some of the "kickstart" info may go away; the rest will probably then be best put after the articles list.

Open task list should be list rather than table
This is a difficult one; because it is a pain to add articles to tables; and may put some people off. However, I would be happy to continue and see how it goes :ChrisG 16:03, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I'm all for swapping the tables for numbered lists, although I think there should be separate lists for each area. Taking away the necessity of editing tables just to add an item to one of the lists would probably encourage new users to add their suggestions. Saves space, too. Alarm 16:20, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I can go either way between tables and lists. Not numbered, because the numbers will change and that's confusing. Definitely separate lists for each area. -- Jmabel 20:17, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

 * It looks like Xed (who said he wouldn't be around today) has preempted this discussion and is turning it all into lists. And he's using numbers, the one thing I said I'd object to. Xed, are you doing this just to piss me off? -- Jmabel 20:56, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)
 * Calm down, I didn't see your comment. Whats wrong with numbers? Makes it easy to count the number of articles. It doesn't matter if they change. --- Xed 21:30, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Number of key topics
I think we should restrict the number of key topics to about ten. This will force us to think hard about what the key issues are. Otherwise we will end up with a list of about 30 sections in a few weeks. The sections that don't make the cut should be listed as a section of its own. :ChrisG 17:06, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Generally concur. Hopefully, if this project reaches a certain size, some of the areas we are now covering become projects of their own. -- Jmabel 20:17, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

Topics to add
I don't think this is an issue. I think they should just be added for the moment. I think we should have a section on Western or American centred articles. We should list those articles that assume that when they are talking about the US or Western issues they are talking about the world. These articles should be flagged with some sort of template. :ChrisG 16:03, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I think we need to explain what we mean by 'Internally-biased articles'. If noone beats me to it, I'll get back to this later today. Agree with ChrisG on the template idea. Alarm 16:20, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Reflected on this and changed my mind, and suggest restrict the number of key topics. However I do feel we should add Western centric articles that are supposed to be generic in content and an Older person section. What we remove, thats more difficult.: ChrisG 17:06, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Do you prefer the terminology "Western centric articles that are supposed to be generic in content" to "Internally-biased articles"? I suppose both terms refer to the area described above under the headline "General subjects that suffer from a U.S. or developed country perspective". We need a good term here, preferrably self-explanatory. Alarm 17:49, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I think the issue is the same even if (as I've occasionally seen) an article is Germany-centric. How about calling the category and having a template, say, Template:Geographic Scope:
 * This article needs expansion: currently it deals only with matters in the following countries: { Template:Covered } . This topic has wider scope.
 * Then  would display as
 * This article needs expansion: currently it deals only with matters in the following countries: U.S., UK. This topic has wider scope.
 * Jmabel 20:17, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)
 * Does it really need to be this specific? There will be practical problems. Sometimes articles are written from a more general Western perspective (such as Adoption). Sometimes examples are taken from quite a few countries, but exclusively, or almost exclusively, developed countries (such as Breakfast). And in cases like Rape, the odd line mentioning non-Western cultures or countries pops up, so although the article is still heavily unbalanced, you can't really say it deals only with matters in the U.S. and the UK. I'd suggest using only one or two more general templates, such as This article needs expansion: currently it deals only with matters in a limited number of countries and perhaps This article needs a more balanced perspective: currently it deals with its topic from a developed world perspective only. Alarm 22:23, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Agreed --- Xed 22:32, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Fine by me -- Jmabel 23:08, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)
 * Could someone with experience in handling templates help with creating those two? This isn't really my specialist field... Alarm 09:26, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Topics to remove
I suggest we should merge Asia with Developing world as a topic. If we have Asia, then we will need the other continents as well which will spread us too thin. Its the type of country not their location which caused the systemic bias. I also feel we should remove humanities as I think it is covered reasonably well.:ChrisG 17:06, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I'd say we remove Humanities and move the single entry there, Modernist women writers, into Women and feminism. People have suggested that humanities in general on the Wikipedia seems to be improving rapidly, so Humanities-related subjects that fit under other categories should probably be a priority for us. Alarm 17:55, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I agree with both. -- Jmabel 20:17, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

I suggest we remove "Subjects which would normally be longer in other encyclopaedias". There is the following page List_of_encyclopedia_topics and clearly work is ongoing. We don't want to duplicate work. Also I don't think its systemic bias, those gaps will clearly be filled by the goal to be more comprehensive than Britannica and Encarta :ChrisG 20:00, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I've done a lot of work on List_of_encyclopedia_topics and the entries there are just as western centric as Wikipedia as a whole, perhaps even more so. - SimonP 21:09, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)
 * Articles within that list my have a western bias. But we have a systemic bias towards covering the content of other encyclopedias. :ChrisG 12:54, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Should the list in the background section (under the headline Systemic bias) be changed to reflect the merges made in the Open Tasks section? I think that would be logical. Alarm 09:32, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes, done. Xed 09:59, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Benin Civil War
Can I ask to which event in Benin's history this term is referring? Is it Benin's part in Nigeria's Civil War? Because as far as I can make out (from NI's World Guide 2004 and from googling) there is no single event called the "Benin Civil War"? -- Graham ☺ | Talk 20:31, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * My mistake I think. Maybe I was thinking of Guinea-Bissau--Xed 22:07, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Is Xed in charge of this project or not?
I've struck myself from the list of participants until the Xed stops acting like he owns this WikiProject.

What are people's views about whether this is collaborative, of if we are really still just helping with User:Xed's CROSSBOW?

BCorr | Брайен 21:47, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I've just spent one and a half hours implementing mine and others suggestions. Is that what you mean?--Xed 22:02, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * If you want my view: I get the impression that this project is collaborative, judging from the important contributions of, among others, Xed, ChrisG, Jmabel and Alarm (in no particular order). After reading something more on CROSSBOW and the history of WP:Bias, I get the impression that Jmabel and ChrisG (and maybe I am forgetting someone - forgive me, I am a new Wikipedian and I shouldn't get into issues like this) could also designate themselves as responsible for 'design, direction', like Xed does on the participant listing. In my humble opinion however, such designations are of little use for the project, since the project would benefit the most from being truly collaborative in all respects.
 * But let me stress once again that I just want to participate and don't want to get involved in thorny issues like this. - Strangeloop (talk)  23:17, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Obviously, I share BCorr's concern. I feel that Xed has been repeatedly preempting consensus. I am thinking of pulling out of trying to do any process-oriented work on this and just maybe suggest articles and keep it on my watchlist to see what other articles people suggest. BCorr, I hope you also will continue to do at least that. -- Jmabel 23:21, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

 * Nope, amending that, I'm not just thinking of it. Xed has now preempted the timetable I set up to make sure we had consensus before going live. Having made all of the edits that he wanted to make, he apparently sees no need to wait for others and see if anyone might have a reaction to any of this, or if anyone else might have an issue within the timeframe I proposed, which no one (including Xed) had explicitly objected to. This is not my idea of collaboration. I still think this project is, in principle, a great idea, but I work on Wikipedia because I enjoy it. It is obvious that there is no way I will enjoy collaborating closely with Xed. I don't doubt his good intentions, just his ability to work cooperatively. -- Jmabel 23:26, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)
 * The edits I made were not just ones I wanted to make, but ones suggested by others - including yourself. Additionally, you said wanted to go live above, and also that you thought the project was ready. Since you thought I was holding you back from going live, I thought that I might as well do it. --Xed 23:36, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * As I said, Xed, I'm not questioning your good intentions, I just find you impossible to work with. -- Jmabel 23:44, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)
 * You don't have to. The project is nearly done. If it has been designed correctly then it will run smoothly, and we won't have to even talk to each other --Xed 23:50, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Oh dear, oh dear. I don't know if there is something I can do here, but I do want to try. I strongly urge everyone to try to keep working together on this. I really value Jmabel's input on this process and were it not for his contributions I would probably not be here myself. There will be new process issues along the way and I do hope to see Jmabel and BCorr contributing to the discussion.

 * Yes, I raised the exact same questions as BCorr when Xed came back to put "project instigator. design, direction" next to his name in the list of participants and bluntly declared that "The direction taken is fundamentally wrong" to participants working hard on what we all thought was a collaborative effort. But I must say that since then we've actually been able to resolve most of the original disagreements and my impression was, until some 12 hours ago, that this had successfully turned into a team effort. I feel that this had much to do with Xed actually changing his tone and taking to a more diplomatic approach, and I actually think he deserves some credit for this change for the better.

 * That said, I absolutely understand the irritation arising from him "jumping the gun" and substantially changing the project page without waiting for broader agreement on the talk page. However, it does seem to me that from his point of wiew he was just implementing suggested improvements that noone had objected to (not having noted Jmabel's opposition to numbered lists). I think that he just felt a certain urgency, arising from the suggestion to "go live" with something he didn't think was polished enough. It would certainly have been much better if he had first said something like "Is it OK if I implement these suggested changes now? With them, I think we're ready to go live." and waited for people to respond. Xed, even though you might be a person who wants things to happen fast, for the sake of this great project, could you please try to communicate what you intend to do and wait for broader consensus before making substantial changes to the project page? And Bcorr and Jmabel, could you please clarify if there is any specific change of Xed's that you object to?

 * I consider this a great project that, given time, could have substantial impact on the Wikipedia. But in order for that to happen, I think we need to have more dedicated people aboard, not less. And in order for us to get this running smoothly, we need to communicate more, not less. Alarm 10:39, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I'm wholly with Strangeloop, Alarm and oddly enough Xed on this one. Its about the work, not the workers, no-one owns this project, it is a cooperative endeavour. I really appreciate the work Jmabel has made for the project; but I have come to appreciate Xed's endeavours as well. To be honest it amused me that Xed put project instigator etc. on the participant list; because he didn't realize that actually lessened the respect he would have automatically earnt from the major contributions he had made; I see from the project page he seems to have learnt his lesson and shown he does have a sense of humour! (re: calling himself a scold who sits on the sidelines) I can see how Jmabel feels Xed actions were designed to annoy him given their past history; but I have to say that Xed hasn't done anything out of order, since coming up with the issue lists as far as I can see. Generally I'm in favour of people being bold with their editing, when its seems there is an emerging consensus and he has been; but perhaps that approach should not be adopted when you have had an ongoing issues with another person. I realize Xed feels he has apologised on Jmabels talk page; but Jmabel clearly hasn't accepted them has heartfelt yet. As a final thought look at the work we have accomplished so far; differences of opinion and conflict are inevitable part of the process of working on Wikipedia, but we share much the same goals.  : ChrisG 12:46, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * When I mentioned the idea of this project on the Village Pump, several people told me to shut up and just get on with it. Now I'm being too productive.. This productivity is partly because Jmabel, and others, wanted the project to go live, so I felt I just had to get on with implementing everyones ideas right away. Despite this, Jmabel says "Having made all of the edits that he wanted to make..". He hasn't specified what edits he disapproves of. He also believes that my putting in a numbered list was done to upset him. Jmabel has made some great contributions to the project, and I would be happy if he were to return. I would rather work on the project than argue about minutiae --Xed 14:59, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Two notes
In my brainstorming a couple ideas at Meta on the potential United States Wikimedia Chapter, I proposed an outreach program to encourage contribution from minority languages. I made an example with some thoughts at this page, devoted to Cherokee. The same idea could be useful for this project, if someone wants to.

Also, I know a bit about African music and am wondering how the articles in the "country carousel" were chosen, because music of Burkina Faso is likely a bad choice. In contrast to most African countries, Burkina Faso has never had much of a recording industry; popular music is almost all imported. The article should be focusing on the folk music of the numerous ethnic groups in the country, and substantially expanding it will require using ethnomusicological journals that only a specialist is likely to be able to access and understand... A well-meaning contributor really couldn't help out there without a solid, specific knowledge base and access to obscure resources. Music of Benin would be a much better choice if you want a "music of" article in the carousel, since I'm sure it would be easier to research. Tuf-Kat 01:32, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)
 * The Burkino Faso music choice was just put there as an example, since the project has just started. You can nominate and vote on Music of Benin, or anything alse, at the bottom of the page--Xed 08:51, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Expanding the to-do list here
It seems that most of the articles that have been put forward, with a few exceptions, are done with some form of COTW in mind. It'd be nice to have a longer list of many articles that need doing in sparse areas (as several of the national notice boards have done) to then choose from. That way, we might end up getting a lot more done. Ambi 10:15, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * How do these national notice board cope with page size? My fear is that the page becomes too heavy if all sections keep long lists. Maybe subpages for each section, with only some 10 top-priority tasks advertised on the main page, could be a working solution? Alarm 11:29, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Simply have a "complete to-do list" subpage, supplementing the main one, which actually sits on the main page. The page size issues would also be helped by moving the COTW discussions to a seperate page, per everywhere else that does this. Ambi 11:33, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * It looks to me that the talk page is going to fill up very fast as well. Should we adopt the village pump method of making it a virtual page. We could split the talk page up into project policy, topics and articles, COTW, Templates etc. :ChrisG 12:56, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I just think it needn't have to do so. Move the stuff that shouldn't be here, like to-do lists and COTW-related stuff to subpages. That's half the problem - having all that stuff here is just creating unnecessary page lag, not to mention being confusing. Then archive lots. And suggest that people get on with working on these articles rather than arguing over who's in charge. Ambi 13:53, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I agree with some of Alarm and Ambis suggestions, and would advocate 10 items for each section -with the breadth of the the items chosen covering the whole spectrum (for instance, the ethnic minority section doesn't have much on Hispanic, Chinese, South Asian etc issues) . And a link to 1 subpage which has a large list of subjects from all the sections. Xed 14:40, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I didn't mean just on the main to-do list. What I'm suggesting is have a complete list on a subpage, with even subpages of that if necessary. That's what we've done for the Aussie notice board, and it ensures there's always something to work on. When there's potentially hundreds of articles to choose from, it also results in a lot more action. Ambi 11:32, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Page size reduction vote
Please vote yay or nay below on this proposal. ---Xed 18:50, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

''Each section in Open Tasks (apart from the country carousel) should contain 10 items representing a broad cross section of the sections potential articles. Furthermore, there should be a separate page (with links to it in the Open task section) that contains all of the CSB articles which have been identified''

nay - moving it completely to a linked page would make sense, but dual maintenance will be a headache and will be particularly confusing for any marginally involved people who want to make suggestions. -- Jmabel 21:11, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)
 * That's not what I meant. The 10 items would simply illustrate the idea behind the section. Only the the items on the separate page would change.--Xed 21:50, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Limited geographic scope items on to-do list template
I thought these subjects need a note next to them, otherwise people would just think the article needs expanding. I've changed the template accordingly. A better solution is probably possible.--Xed 14:28, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)


text:
Scott Gibbs

Ian Scott Gibbs (born 23 January 1971) is a Welsh former rugby footballer who has represented Wales and the Lions in rugby union and Wales and Great Britain in rugby league. Noted feats included his performance in the 1997 British Lions tour to South Africa (in which he was named "Player of the Series") and the individual try he scored in the dying minutes of the last Five Nations match in 1999 against England.

Background
Gibbs was born in Bridgend, Glamorgan, Wales.

Rugby union
Gibbs began his rugby career at Pencoed RFC, progressing through the mini and youth levels. His first class career started at Bridgend RFC during the 1990/91 season, followed by a short spell at Neath RFC, before making his Wales debut in 1991 against England. However he transferred to Swansea RFC in January 1992, scoring a try on his debut in a Cup game against Oakdale. Gibbs also scored further tries that season in the cup against Neath RFC and Newport RFC to help Swansea reach the final where they lost to Llanelli RFC at Cardiff Arms Park.

Despite being only 22, he was selected for the 1993 British Lions tour to New Zealand, where he impressed so much that he was selected for the second and third tests instead of then-England captain Will Carling.

Rugby league
In 1994 Gibbs left union to join rugby league team St. Helens. While playing league, Gibbs was selected to play for Wales in the 1995 World Cup. He also won the Challenge Cup, and the inaugural Super League title with St. Helens in 1996. He played at centre in the 1996 Challenge Cup final victory over Bradford Bulls.

Scott Gibbs played at in St. Helens' 16–25 defeat by Wigan in the 1995–96 Regal Trophy Final during the 1995–96 at Alfred McAlpine Stadium, Huddersfield on Saturday 13 January 1996.

Return to union
On his return to union in 1996 it was sometimes joked that he was the fastest prop in world rugby, though in fact he was an inside centre. He became known as the world's hardest tackler (summed up by his nickname "Car Crash") and this was exemplified by his performance in his second Lions tour.

In 1997 Gibbs was a key member of the victorious British Lions tour of South Africa. The Springboks were at the time the world champions following the 1995 World Cup, and were expected to win the series. However, the Lions produced some noted defensive performances with Gibbs at the centre of the action pulling off some devastating tackles. In one game, Gibbs crashed through the Springboks' key player, 19-stone Os du Randt on one of his trademark bullocking runs. The Lions went on to win the series 2–1 and Gibbs was voted "Player of the Series".

In later years Gibbs was sometimes criticised for being too one-dimensional, but he did show agility to claim the winning try in the last-ever Five Nations match in 1999. Wales were playing England at Wembley with England trying to complete the Grand Slam. England led by 6 points with 3 minutes left to play and appeared to have won the game. However, during injury time (which was added to the 80 minutes in the era prior to the practice of stopping the game clock) Wales had a final attacking line-out from which Gibbs received a Scott Quinnell pass 20m from the try line. Gibbs memorably broke through England's defensive line, ran around one defender, side-stepped another and crossed for one of the most celebrated tries in Welsh rugby history.

In a 2013 article for The Guardian, Gibbs said that the play was inspired by a move that his old St Helens teammate Bobbie Goulding had regularly used to great success in the 13-man code, namely packing the midfield with forwards before allowing a back to cut through on a diagonal dummy run. Following Neil Jenkins' conversion, Wales won the match 32–31 in what is agreed to be one of the best matches played in the competition, and caused England not only to miss out on the Grand Slam, but handed the last Five Nations Championship to Scotland.

In 2001 Gibbs was called up as a replacement to the 2001 British & Irish Lions tour to Australia, though he did not play in any of the Tests.

Post-retirement
Gibbs retired from rugby in 2004 at age 33 and went on to contribute to the BBC's rugby union coverage. He also coaches the Pirates in Muscat, Oman.

Gibbs resides in Cape Town, South Africa, with his fiancée.

title: Scott Gibbs


text:
Prior-appropriation water rights

In the American legal system, prior appropriation water rights is the doctrine that the first person to take a quantity of water from a water source for "beneficial use" (agricultural, industrial or household) has the right to continue to use that quantity of water for that purpose. Subsequent users can take the remaining water for their own use if they do not impinge on the rights of previous users. The doctrine is sometimes summarized, "first in time, first in right".

Prior appropriation rights do not constitute a full ownership right in the water, merely the right to withdraw it, and can be abrogated if not used for an extended period of time.

Origin
Water is very scarce in the West and so must be allocated sparingly, based on the productivity of its use. The prior appropriation doctrine developed in the Western United States from Spanish (and later Mexican) civil law and differs from the riparian water rights that apply in the rest of the United States. The appropriation doctrine originated in Gold-Rush–era California, when miners sought to acquire water for mining operations. In the 1855 case of Irwin v. Phillips, Matthew Irwin diverted a stream for his mining operation. Shortly afterward, Robert Phillips started a mining operation downstream and eventually tried to divert the water back to its original streambed. The case was taken to the California Supreme Court, which ruled for Irwin.

Nature of the right
The legal details of prior appropriation vary from state to state. Under the prior appropriation system, the right is initially allotted to those who are "first in time of use"; these rights of withdrawal can then trade on the open market, like other property. For water sources with many users, a government or quasi-government agency is usually charged with overseeing allocations. Allocations involving water sources that cross state borders or international borders can be quite contentious, and are generally governed by federal court rulings, interstate agreements and international treaties.

A claim of prior appropriation must prove four sub-claims: diversion (that the water had been withdrawn), priority (that the withdrawer had diverted water prior to the other claimant), intent (that the water had been withdrawn by design), and beneficial use (that the water was put to a publicly-acceptable end). If proved, the initial person to use a quantity of water from a water source for a beneficial use has the right to continue to use the same quantity of water for the same purpose. Subsequent users can use the remaining water for their own beneficial purposes provided that they do not impinge on the rights of previous users; this is the priority element of the doctrine. But neither can a senior user change the manner (i.e., location) in which they appropriate water to the detriment of a junior user. These Preservation of Conditions were granted to the second user after Farmers Highline Canal & Reservoir Co. v. City of Golden, 272 P.2d 629 (Colo. 1954). A senior water user could, for example, only have been using the water during a particular season. Then the purchaser of the water right could only use the water in the same season as when the right was established. In addition, the state may put additional conditions on the use of the water right to prevent polluting or inefficient uses of water.

Beneficial use is commonly defined as agricultural, industrial or household use. The doctrine has historically excluded ecological purposes, such as maintaining a natural body of water and the wildlife that depends on it, but some jurisdictions now accept such claims. The extent to which private parties may own such rights varies among the states.

Each water right has a yearly quantity and an appropriation date. Each year, the user with the earliest appropriation date (known as the "senior appropriator") may use up to their full allocation (provided the water source can supply it). Then the user with the next earliest appropriation date may use their full allocation and so on. In cases of water shortages, prior-appropriation does not require a senior user to utilize less water than usual. Therefore, during times of drought, users with junior appropriation dates might not receive their full allocation or even any water at all.

When a water right is sold, it retains its original appropriation date. Only the amount of water historically consumed can be transferred if a water right is sold. For example, if alfalfa is grown using flood irrigation, the amount of the return flow may not be transferred, only the amount that would be necessary to irrigate the amount of alfalfa historically grown.

Prior appropriation rights are subject to certain adverse possession-type rules to reduce speculation. Withdrawal rights can be lost or shrunk over time if unused for a certain number of years, or if a litigant can demonstrate that the water's use is not beneficial. Abandonment of a water right is rare, but occurred in Colorado in a case involving the South Fork of San Isabel Creek in Saguache County.

Interaction with other allocation methods
In some states, junior upstream water users may take water from downstream users, as long as they return the water in comparable quantity and quality.

California and Texas grant waterfront property owners water allocations prior to any other users, in a hybrid system with riparian water rights. In Oregon, landowners have rights to water on their own land at a certain time at which it is then incorporated into the appropriation system.

Adoption
Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Idaho, Kansas, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Dakota, Texas, Utah, Washington, Wyoming all use the prior appropriation doctrine, with permitting and reporting as their regulatory system. Of these, California, Texas, and Oregon recognize a dual doctrine system that employs both riparian and prior appropriation rights (see ). Eight states (Arizona, Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Utah, and Wyoming) engage in prior appropriation without recognizing the riparian doctrine.

However, prior appropriation does not always determine water allocation in these states because various federal regulations also have priority over senior users. For example, the Endangered Species Act of 1973 seeks to protect animals at risk of extinction, so a senior user's rights may be restricted in favor of federal regulation protecting the habitats of endangered animals. These federal rules manifest as a prior allotment by the Secretary of the Interior.

Arizona
Arizona adopted the prior appropriation doctrine such that a person could acquire this water right simply by applying it to beneficial use and posting an appropriation notice at the point of diversion. On June 12, 1919, they enacted the Public Water Code in which the person must apply for and obtain a permit for water use.

Colorado
The appropriation doctrine was adopted in Colorado in 1872 when the territorial court ruled in Yunker v. Nichols, 1 Colo. 552 (1872), that a non-riparian user who had previously applied part of the water from a stream to beneficial use had superior rights to the water with respect to a riparian owner who claimed a right to use of all the water at a later time. The question was not squarely presented again to the Colorado Court until 1882 when in the landmark case, Coffin v. Left Hand Ditch Co., 6 Colo. 443 (1882), the court explicitly adopted the appropriation doctrine and rejected the riparian doctrine, citing Colorado irrigation and mining practices and the nature of the climate. The decision in Coffin ruled that prior to adoption of the appropriation doctrine in the Colorado Constitution of 1876 that the riparian doctrine had never been the law in Colorado. Within 20 years the appropriation doctrine, the so-called Colorado Doctrine, had been adopted, in whole or part, by most of the states in the Western United States that had an arid climate.

New Mexico
New Mexico enacted its appropriate Surface-Water Code in 1907. Later, in 1931, New Mexico enacted the Underground Water Law that adapted the state's surface law to ground water.

Montana
The prior-appropriation doctrine was adopted in 1973 in Montana under the 1973 Water Use Act. Later, they then passed the Montana Ground Water Assessment Act in 1991.

Texas
In 1967, Texas passed the Water Rights Adjudication Act in regards to surface waters such that the allocation of these waters was under a unified permit system.

Criticism
"Each drop of rain falling through the sky has already been allocated to a user. Leave the hose running between rinses while you wash your car and you won't run afoul of the law; but if you gather a pailful of rainwater and pour on your tomato plant, look over your shoulder for a water cop. You will be preventing those raindrops from entering the watershed, depriving people downstream from the surrounding creeks and rivers of their rights to use their apportioned amounts of streamflow.  The doctrine of prior appropriation comes crashing up against the imperative to conserve scarce water.  Colorado made it legal for some homeowners to harvest rain and snow from their roofs.  Tucson is encouraging its citizens to gather rainwater.  Santa Fe made catchment devices mandatory for new dwellings.  But, in Utah and Washington (with the exception of Seattle), harvesting raindrops is still a crime."

Even though water markets increasingly gain ground, many criticize the prior appropriation system for failing to adequately adjust to society's evolving values and needs. Environmentalists and recreational river-users demand more water be left in rivers and streams, but courts have been slow to accept these requests as beneficial uses. Conversely, the tool of beneficial use is too tied to custom to encourage users to conserve. An appropriator who uses water inefficiently retains the right to the full allotment, but an appropriator who uses only a portion risks losing the right to the rest, and water right markets remain too illiquid to purchase any excess. As a result, the vast majority of water in the West still is allocated to agricultural uses despite cries for additional water from growing cities.

High demand can cause an over-appropriation of the waters, in which there are more water rights for a particular stream than water actually available. This leads to an apparent inefficiency: if a water source is over-appropriated, the latest users will almost never see water from their claims. But without those claims, excess water from an unusually wet year will go to waste.

In other goods
Water is not the only public good that has been subject to prior appropriation. The same first in time, first in right theory has been used in the United States to encourage and give a legal framework for other commercial activities.

The early prospectors and miners in the California Gold Rush of 1849, and later gold and silver rushes in the western United States, applied appropriation theory to mineral deposits. The first one to discover and begin mining a deposit was acknowledged to have a legal right to mine. Because appropriation theory in mineral lands and water rights developed in the same time and place, it is likely that they influenced one another. As with water rights, mining rights could be forfeited by nonuse. The miners codes were later legalized by the federal government in 1866, and then in the Mining Law of 1872.

The Homestead Act of 1862 granted legal title to the first farmer to put public land into agricultural production. This first in time right to agricultural land may have been influenced by appropriation theory applied to mineral lands.

In recent years, there has been some discussion of limiting air pollution by granting rights to existing pollution sources. Then it has been argued, a free cap and trade market could develop in pollution rights. This would be prior appropriation theory applied to air pollution. Recent concern over carbon dioxide and global warming has led to an economic market in CO2 emissions, in which some companies wish to balance emissions increases by offsetting decreases in existing emissions sources. This is essentially acknowledging a prior appropriation right to existing CO2 emitters.

title: Prior-appropriation water rights