text:
Talk:Extradition

Course assignment signature
Glw53 (talk) 23:56, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Reference for FORCE-1
This appears to be a commercial plug? If anyone can confirm, it should be removed or reworded. I think this would belong better under rendition anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nbertram (talk • contribs) 05:15, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Non-extradition countries
Does anyone have a list of non-extradition countries for common english-speaking countries? It would add to the article. I havn't been able to find any decent information. --ChrisRuvolo 19:46, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Added by Soren Harward Mon 15 Nov 2004:

I found a couple of old links thanks to a 2-year-old Google Answers question:

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=27692 http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00003181000-notes.html http://www.uncjin.org/Laws/extradit/extindx.htm

And the US State Department has info about diplomatic relations here:

http://www.state.gov/countries/

This will take some processing because it's a list of countries with whom we have extradition treaties, not a list of countries with which we do not. So I'll mark this on my TODO list. Someone else may want to cover countries other than the US.

Roman Polanski
Did the state of California request the US government to convey a request to France that Roman Polanski should be prosecuted? I know at least one case where a French citizen was (successfully, if I remember well) prosecuted in France for a murder committed in the US. David.Monniaux 18:47, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Terror?
Is Wikipedia really so illiterate as that? ''Note: this is not a rhetorical question. Please answer seriously.''

Under the section for Extradition there are two misuses of "terror". Unfortunately, one of them is a link to an article that also misuses the term, so it cannot be fixed without changing the linked article, too.

Since I am new, I will not risk making such changes.

Waiving extradition
That a suspect 'waives extradition' appears in the news fairly often. I'd think that a mention of this, with what it means/why it's newsworthy, and why one would do so, would be useful.

Soering v. United Kingdom
In the Restrictions section Soering v. United Kingdom is mentioned as a prominent case. Could someone please write about this as I'm sure it would add to the knowledge of the topic! Cheers. Witt y lama 18:47, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Litvinenko/Lugovoi?
Nothing about this story? It's been big news in Britain for a long time now. 81.159.56.123 03:33, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Between sub-federal jurisdictions (e.g., U.S. States)
I'd like to see a section discussing extradition between sub-federal jurisdictions. This is obviously an issue in the U.S., where States extradite suspects between one another. I imagine it is also an issue in other federal nations.

Some numbers?
Does anybody have any numbers on how many people are concerned by extradition? I guess this kind of statistics would be quite difficult to gather, but I think it would be interesting to know, roughly, for example, the number of extraditions from the US or to the US (or to/from some other major countries or regions).80.194.194.190 (talk) 14:22, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

CIA = USA
In the Extradition and abduction section, why is CIA specified? The CIA is an agency of the United States. If the CIA performed an action, the United States performed that action. Kevdav63 (talk) 14:03, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

 * I thought the same thing. All of the other items in the list specify the country, not the specific organization. Since Kevdav63's comment has been here for more than a month, I'll go ahead and make the change. If there's a good reason why it should be CIA and not USA, please tell us here. YardsGreen (talk) 06:09, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Assange
The statement that dual criminality involves an act which is a crime in both countries needs clarifying and perhaps amendment. In particular, does it not imply that the relevent "act" must already have been judged (presumably in a proper court) to have been a crime. How can someone be extradited for questioning about an act which is not a clearly established crime? Can one extradite someone simply because of the possibility that a crime may have been committed? If so, there appears to be no defence against extradition.Paulhummerman (talk) 02:30, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

 * People are extradited to face trial, that's all. I can, at least, state for a fact that no European country permits its citizens to be extradited 'for the purposes of investigation'. Neither does the United States. Thus, the US (say) would request extradition on the basis of a grand jury indictment, a UK request would come from the Crown Prosecution Service. Accordingly, it's readily apparent whether dual criminality applies - the requesting country must have charged the individual with a crime that's recognised by the criminal justice system of the requestee nation. It's topical; the age of sex consent in the UK is 16 years and therefore, (absent certain aggravating features such as proven 'grooming' or abuse of a position of authority), it isn't possible to extradite a British citizen on the bases of 'illegal sexual intercourse with a 17 year old'. Members of certain royal families will take comfort from this. 2A01:4B00:AE0E:6200:DC7D:D977:5E79:92BB (talk) 15:06, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Own nationals
The article says that Germany doesn'e extradite it's own citizens, yet Christine Schürrer was extratited to Sweden. Is the article wrong or is there something else in that story? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.103.209.223 (talk) 17:04, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Abductions
The section on abductions is a mess. The first two check out, but the third looks very dubious. Isang Yun's article mentions nothing about an extrajudicial abduction and the only source it gives is in Korean. If anyone happens to speak the language, it would be nice it they could check the source and confirm it says what this article claims.

I say this also because several of the other names on the list are incorrect. Camilla Broe was extradited legally (though controversially) to the US and the same goes for Aimal Kasi. Abdullah Ocalan's extradition involved Turkey; not the US. Martin Mubanga's capture was an extraordinary rendition; not an extrajudicial abduction. Same goes for Khaled El-Masri. That's five completely false accusations against the US made in that one section (the Israeli ones, surprise surprise, all check out).

Also, why does the list only contain abductions by Israel and the US? I know those aren't the only countries which do/have carried out illegal extraditions (look at North Korea or the USSR), so why the one-sidedness? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.102.43.72 (talk) 10:12, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Between sub-federal jurisdictions (e.g., U.S. States) again
It would be helpful if a section could be added on this, as requested above some time back. For the second time I came looking after a reference to inter-State extradition in an article, for example in the Lead of Whitey Bulger. Davidships (talk) 10:11, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

 * I think you're looking for Extradition law in the United States. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 14:04, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

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Examples of jurisdictions that do not extradite for death sentences
The list of examples currently includes Hong Kong. I believe this is incorrect. Although most of Hong Kong's extradition agreements do allow for the refusal of extradition for the death penalty (usually discretionary, occasionally mandatory), its laws (Fugitive Offenders Ordinance, Cap. 503, Section 5) do not require any restrictions on the death penalty, and two of its current (2019) extradition agreements have no restriction on extradition for the death penalty (Malaysia and Singapore). Thus, Hong Kong is not a jurisdiction that "will not allow extradition if the death penalty may be imposed".

If you think this is incorrect, please correct me with a citation. ("Hong Kong" was originally added in revision 857059053 without a citation...)

Henry stuffedcow (talk) 05:59, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Extradition or transfer?
hi. In the case of Ramil Safarov, can one talk of extradition, or is it just a case of physical transfer for humanitarian reasons (incarceration in one's home country)? In other words: does "extradition" necessarily imply that the country applying for it intends to bring the accused to trial? With Safarov, the declared intention was to have him serve the already decided period of incarceration "at home", with the actual, hidden intention of pardoning him altogether and de facto erasing his conviction (see back payment of salary for the years served in Hungary, official treatment as "national hero"). Once this is clarified, the definition of the article might need to be changed - if the extradition application necessarily needs to claim (rightfully or falsely, it doesn't matter here) that its purpose is to bring the person in case to justice, or have them serve time according to a preexisting legal sentencing. As it is now, this important aspect is not touched upon. If indeed this is the case, please also replace "extradition" (wikilinked) with "transfer" in the Armenia–Hungary relations paragraph. Thank you. Arminden (talk) 01:52, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Put back in material removed in act of vandalism back in 2008, but needs reworking
hi. An anonymous "editor", in a clear case of vandalism, removed a large chunk of the article (over 7000 bytes), adding "JOHN KINCHELO SUCKS AT LIFE". Somebody quickly removed the "joke", but failed to put the material back in, and so it stayed for 12 years. Now I found it and placed it back in. I am of course aware that the article has greatly advanced since, but it may well be that part of the vandalised material is valuable and missing in the current version. Or not (anymore), and then it's up to you to remove it again. I have no legal background whatsoever, here's where I stop with my contribution. Please take a look.

The vandal's "edit" is here (Revision as of 17:02, 13 November 2008).

I am pinging you two, Blue-Haired Lawyer and Enthusiast01, because you seem to be the last two active editors who have contributed in a substantive way to this article (definition in the lead and/or content). Thanks, Arminden (talk) 02:36, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

 * Thanks Arminden, well spotted! — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 12:18, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Crime
Would Indiana come to Oregon on a possion of marijuana possion of syringe possion of paraphernalia 2603:300F:7BC:0:85D3:D9BF:1E06:73A1 (talk) 14:03, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Disputed number of Hong Kong demonstrators
In the first place, while the headline of the cited article states "1 million", the text merely states "hundreds of thousands".

In the second place, this article from the Hong Kong Free Press (which appears to refer to the same demonstration) refers merely to "tens of thousands" of protesters.

New York Times Story (publication date of June 9, 2019) says there were 240,000 protesters "at the peak" of the demonstration, and CNBC reported "over 200,000" protesters. The "million" figure has been attributed to Jimmy Sham, spokesperson for the pro-democracy group that organized the protest. Fabrickator (talk) 02:01, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Extradition


text:
Talk:Madness

Sparta
Removing the link to Sparta is vandalism, please do not make such a modification without discussing it on the talk page.

Kakama5 (talk) 22:18, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

WTF is with this article and Sparta?--jonrev 19:26, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Madness is a term used to describe a large gathering of people with many extreme emotions.

I removed the redirect to Sparta. It is based on a faulty reading of the text. What happens is: Black Persian Ambassador Guy: "With 300 naked guys? Against an army? it's madness!" Topless Spartan Hunk-King: "No! It! Is! Sparta!". (Pushes ambassador into a well.) Clearly the implication is that Madness is not Sparta. Hornplease 07:13, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

So I assume that it is the opposite of Sparta? 68.228.28.226 20:24, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

"This is madness!" - Persian Ambassador "Madness? This is Sparta!" -King Leonidus in the movie 300

Now the people have what they want, I have created a fiction section for this article, leading to Sparta, and a link to the movie 300. --66.97.122.220 08:39, 25 July 2007 (UTC)---
 * Someone reverted his edit with no justification, so I will restore it. If you have a problem please discuss it on the talk page, or else it is a violation of wikipedia policy to make such blatant vandalism to the fiction section. 68.101.12.238 (talk) 01:16, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the Sparta link again. This page disambiguates between various uses and forms of the word madness. An article should be linked here if Madness is in its title, or if it may be reasonably confused with Madness (as with Insanity). Say what you will about Sparta, but there is no way that a region, state, or nationality could be confused with an emotional response. Linking to Madness from Sparta, 300 (film), or wherever, is fine - but not from Madness out. Thanks, UltraExactZZ Claims~ Evidence 15:21, 18 January 2008 (UTC) You are no fun. 217.205.110.52 (talk) 18:32, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Should we semi-protect this page?
It's been a while since I was active on Wikipedia, and I can't recall what the procedure is for applying for semi-protection. But maybe it would be smart, considering we've had about 300 Hellenes drop by this page to make their views known. (Either that or we should give up and let it stand. It is kind of funny.)  ~ Marblespire (talk) 21:54, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Madness Combat?
Why is there no Madness Combat Wikipedia page? I thought that was like one of the most well know flash things ever, like up there with Salad Fingers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by NexCarnifex (talk • contribs) 18:57, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

 * Me too 46.185.222.94 (talk) 15:27, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

 * I tough of that too!

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Madness


text:
Talk:Eclecticism

First paragraph
It seems, in the first sentence, that there is a typo:

Eclecticism is an approach to philosophy and other fields that does not hold rigidly to a single mode of thinking, but instead draws upon multiple theories to gain complementary insights of phenomena, or applies only certain theories in particular cases.

should perhaps be:

Eclecticism is an approach to philosophy and other fields that does not hold rigidly to a single mode of thinking, but instead draws upon multiple theories to gain complementary insights of phenomena, or applies only to certain theories in particular cases.

I don't claim to be a grammatical expert, but the sentence seems to be missing something at that point. Perhaps I'm miss reading the sentence. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.67.6.44 (talk • contribs) 12:50, October 15, 2004 (UTC)
 * I think the "to" can make a difference between what the subject of the sentence is: the eclecticism, or the theories.  I'm thinking one sentence means applying a theory to a certain principle (in which the principle is the idea that is being altered, challenged, whatever), but the other sentence meaning you apply a certain principle to a theory (in which the theory is the idea that is being altered, challenged, whatever).  I could be wrong, of course, but we all have likely experienced situations in the past where one little preposition can change an entire meaning or context of what we wish to express.  Since I don't know the intended original meaning of the article, I'm leaving it alone.  --I am not good at running 00:53, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Copied
Who copied whom?

Science Fair Project Encyclopedia —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Prell (talk • contribs) 11:15, October 28, 2004 (UTC)
 * The indicated website states that it mirrors wikipedia articles, so no problem here. --Blainster 10:02, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Article Improvement Drive
Architecture of Africa is currently nominated on Article Improvement Drive. Come to this page and support it with your vote. Help us improve this article to featured status.--Fenice 08:46, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup needed
I have just added a cleanup tag to this article. If anyone has the chance to give it some attention, such as dividing it into sections and adding more information (there is more to eclecticism than is written here), that would be great. Also, above is a note about possible copyright violation. I haven't had a chance to check out the link yet, but this is potentially another problem. Thanks, rom a rin [talk ] 15:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Image needs descriptive title
The image of the window is titled 'eclecticism in architecture', but does not tell how. My personal view is that it is because of multiple architecture styles used. But I am not sure, and from reading the first paragraph, it may refer to some other vague meaning, because article refers to many meanings of 'eclecticism'. Please add more descriptive title to it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Anupamsr (talk • contribs) 01:28, July 13, 2006 (UTC)
 * That picture, along with its placement and especially the amazing caption, together comprise probably the most hilarious thing I've ever seen on Wikipedia. Please don't change it! :O — flamingspinach | (talk) 13:01, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Lacuna
The entry should have a section on Eclecticism in religion, or Religious Eclecticism. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 61.246.204.115 (talk • contribs) 23:38, September 1, 2006 (UTC)

Better late than never, but I agree. While religious syncretism is featured heavily in the article on syncretism, I was surprised that there was not a section on religious eclecticism here. I guess the first step would be to know exactly what the differences between the two are, assumming there is a difference as per and. Emptymountains (talk) 01:20, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Morning tea
Rather than a label asking for more info, can we just remove what is the admittedly nicely written words of a wum.RayTayMiht (talk) 07:39, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Uniformly Eclectic?
"The Hungarian capital has the biggest and most uniform eclectical city center in the World."

I'm no expert on eclecticism, nor am I a native english speaker, but can there be something that is uniformly eclectical? Rieby (talk) 00:14, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

 * Good point. You have prompted me to check the credentials cited for that photo caption, and it is highly suspect: it is a link to a website that not only offers the (Hungarian) Wikipedia as a link, but actually quotes two paragraphs from it. The "uniform eclectic" notion appears to be a mangled translation from the Hungarian Wikipedia article quoted there, the operative phrase being "városképe a világon egyedülállóan egységes", which I make out to mean "the city is a uniquely unified image of the world", which is not quite the same thing, is it? In any case, Wikipedia is not a reliable source (not even the Hungarian Wikipedia!), and that intersection appears to be perfectly uniform architecturally, and not at all eclectic. I suggest it be removed, together with the offending caption and its unreliable source, since all it can possibly do is confuse the reader. Perhaps its addition was a prank?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 04:17, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Literally
"The term comes from the Greek ἐκλεκτικός (eklektikos), literally "choosing the best",[1][2]"

The Greek word does not literally mean "choosing the best", nor is it stated anywhere in the references ("[1][2]") provided.

The word is an adjective from the verb meaning 'to select, pick out, elect' (or the corresponding noun), so it means 'related to selecting' or 'selecting, picking out, selective, choosing' (all adjectives) = 'that selects, picks out'.

Fun fact: the English word 'elect' comes from Latin electus (e-leg-tus) < eligere < e(x) + legere, this 'ex' (out of) is cognate with the Greek 'ek' and 'legere' (pick, choose, select, read) is cognate with the Greek 'lego'. In Modern Greek 'I e-lec-t' is said 'ek-leg-o'.

ll — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.149.61.218 (talk) 18:22, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Duplicate of Revivalism term
It's the same thing that Revivalism (architecture). I think, that in some (socialist) countries word "Eclectism" is used instead of "Revivalism" or "Historicism" (second clone of Revivalism). Why Wikipedia need clone of term? --Investigatio (talk) 13:23, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

 * I am not an expert in architecture, but it appears to me that Revivalism (architecture) is more of a list, whereas Eclecticism in architecture is more of an expository article. Any discussion about merging these two articles would be better suited to Talk:Revivalism (architecture) or Talk:Eclecticism in architecture; this talk page is about Eclecticism, which is a more general article that is not limited to architecture, as you can see by reviewing the article's headings. Biogeographist (talk) 14:25, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Eclecticism and syncretism are not equivalent
Syncretism is a union (or blend) of two or more things, while eclecticism is a selective intersection (or mix) of specific aspects of two or more things.

A syncretic religion blends two or more religions together typically without any significant exclusion.

An eclectic religion carefully selects complementary aspects from two or more religions that typically fit well together, or are complementary.

Thus the paragraph claiming equivalency needs revising. Thoric (talk) 20:45, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Eclecticism


text:
Beatus of Liébana

Beatus of Liébana (Beato; c. 750) was a monk, theologian, and author of the Commentary on the Apocalypse, an influential compendium of previous authorities' views on the Apocalypse. For him, the observation and reading of such works was a sacred action, akin to communion. Beatus treats the reading of the book as the same as the body, and so by reading the book, the reader is one with Christ. He also led the opposition against a Spanish variant of Adoptionism, the heretical belief that Christ was the son of God by adoption, an idea first propounded in Spain by Elipandus, the bishop of Toledo.

Aside from his work, almost nothing is known about Beatus. He was a monk and probably an abbot at the monastery of Santo Toribio de Liébana in the Kingdom of Asturias, the only region of Spain remaining outside of Muslim control. Beatus appears to have been well known by his contemporaries. He was a correspondent with the notable Christian scholar, Alcuin, and a confidant of queen Adosinda, daughter of Alfonso I of Asturias and wife of Silo of Asturias. A supposed biography, the Life of Beatus, has been identified as a 17th-century fraud with no historical value.

Apocalypse commentary
He is best remembered today as the author of the Commentary on the Apocalypse, written in 776, then revised in 784 and again in 786. The Commentary is a work of erudition but without great originality, made up principally of extracts from the texts of Church authorities including Augustine of Hippo, Tyconius, Ambrose, Irenaeus, and Isidore of Seville. He relied most heavily on the lost Commentary by Tyconius, whose writing provided Beatus with much of the text for his work. In his last revision, Beatus added the commentary by Jerome on the Book of Daniel.

The Commentary was popular during the Middle Ages and survives in at least 32 manuscripts (usually called a beatus) from the 9th through the 13th centuries. No contemporary copies of Beatus's work have survived. Not all of the manuscripts are complete, and some exist only in fragmentary form. Twenty-six of these manuscripts are lavishly decorated and have been recognized as some of the best examples of the Mozarabic style of illumination.

Beatus map
Of special interest to cartographers is a world map included in the second book of the Commentary. Unlike most medieval maps which showed only the three known continents of Europe, Asia, and Africa, the Beatus map also displayed a fourth, unknown continent. The original purpose of the map was evangelical, displaying the apostles preaching in every part of the world, including the fourth continent. The original map has been lost but several copies have survived, all featuring an eastern orientation and paradise with four rivers flowing from it.

Adoptionism controversy
Beatus was a vocal opponent of a Spanish variant of adoptionism, the belief that Christ was the son of God by adoption, an idea first put forward by Elipandus, Bishop of Toledo and Bishop Felix of Urgell on the Iberian Peninsula. Elipandus and Felix declared that Jesus, in respect to his human nature, was the adopted son of God by God's grace, thus emphasizing the distinction between the divinity and the humanity of Christ. Beatus and other opponents of adoptionism, such as Alcuin and Paulinus II of Aquileia, feared that this view would so divide the person of the Savior that the reality of the incarnation would be lost. In addition, many theologians were concerned that this adoptionism was a new version of the Nestorianism advanced by Nestorius.

In 794, Elipandus attacked Beatus in a letter to the bishops of Gaul, calling Beatus a pseudo-prophet and accusing him of having falsely announced the imminent end of the world. In response to the controversy, Charlemagne called together the Council of Frankfurt in 794. The assembled bishops condemned adoptionism as a heresy and in 798, Pope Leo III confirmed the heresy of adoptionism.

title: Beatus of Liébana


text:
The Modern Antiquarian

The Modern Antiquarian: A Pre-Millennial Odyssey Through Megalithic Britain is a guide book written by Julian Cope, published in 1998. It is written as a travelogue of British megalithic sites, including Stonehenge and Avebury. Types of artifacts catalogued include stone circles, hillforts and barrows.

Details
In the introduction Cope explains how a visit to Avebury Stone Circle inspired his enthusiasm for the subject. He was disappointed with the quality of available guidebooks, so decided to write his own. He visited and researched hundreds of sites over eight years, selecting about 300 of the most significant for the book.

The book is divided into two sections, the first being ten essays by Cope about various aspects of British Isles megalithic culture. The second and main part of the book is a geographically arranged gazetteer of the sites. Each entry includes field notes, directions, map references and photographs or drawings.

A documentary film of the same name was made for the BBC in mid-2000. A website based on the book was launched in 2000. It invites users to add their own knowledge, research and photographs of the ancient sites of Britain and Ireland and currently holds information on over 7,400 archaeological sites. As of 2004 the book had sold more than 40,000 copies.

In October 2004 Cope published the follow-up volume The Megalithic European on 300 sites scattered across Europe and Scandinavia.

title: The Modern Antiquarian


text:
Nazaré, Portugal

Nazaré is a Portuguese town and municipality located in the Oeste region, in the historical province of Estremadura, and in the Leiria District. The municipality has a population of 14,889 in an area of 82.43 km2, while the town itself has around 10,000 inhabitants.

It is one of the most popular seaside resorts in the Silver Coast (Costa de Prata).

The town of Nazaré consists of three neighbourhoods: Praia (along the beach), Sítio (an old village, on top of a cliff) and Pederneira (another old village, on a hilltop). Praia and Sítio are linked by the Nazaré Funicular, a funicular railway.

The present mayor is Walter Chicharro, a member of the Socialist Party. The municipal holiday is on 8 September, as part of the Our Lady Of Nazaré Festival, a ten-day religious and secular celebration with processions, bullfights, fireworks, folk dancing and a fair.

Etymology
The name Nazaré is the Portuguese version of Nazareth, the biblical city in the Holy Land.

History and legend

The earliest settlements were in Pederneira and in Sítio, above the beach. They provided the inhabitants with refuge against raids by Viking and, later, French, English and Dutch pirates, that lasted until as late as the beginning of the 19th century. In fact, only in the 19th century, with the gradual end of maritime piracy, was possible for the people to start occupying the Praia which is today considered the town center.

According to the Legend of Nazaré, the town derives its name from a small wooden statue of the Virgin Mary, brought from Nazareth, Holy Land, to a monastery near the city of Mérida, Spain, by a monk in the 4th century. The statue was brought to its current location in 711 by another monk, Romano, accompanied by Roderic, the last Visigoth king of today's Portugal. After their arrival at the seaside they decided to become hermits. Romano lived and died in a small natural grotto, on top of a cliff above the sea. After his death and according to his wishes, the king buried him in the grotto. Roderic left the statue of the Black Madonna in the grotto on an altar.

The first church in Sítio was built over the grotto to commemorate a miraculous intervention in 1182 by the Virgin Mary, which saved the life of the 12th-century Portuguese knight Dom Fuas Roupinho (possibly a templar) while he was hunting deer one morning in a dense fog. The episode is usually referred to as the Legend of Nazaré. In memory of the miracle he had a chapel (Capela da Memória) built over the small grotto, where the miraculous statue had been placed by king Roderic. Beside the chapel, on a rocky outcrop 110 meters above the Atlantic, one can still see the mark made in the rock by one of the hooves of Dom Fuas' horse. This Church of Nazareth, high on the rocky outcrop over Pederneira Bay, was noted as a landmark in sailors' manuals.

In 1377, King Fernando I of Portugal founded a new, more spacious church, which was totally transformed between the 16th and 19th centuries. The Sanctuary of Our Lady of Nazaré is a rich baroque building, with splendid tiles on its interior. Behind and above the main altar, visitors can see and venerate the miraculous statue of Our Lady of Nazaré. The religious figures are crowned by 18th century diadems, presented to the church by King John VI. The sacred image is wrapped with a green cloak decorated with gold, gifted to the Virgin Mary by King John V. The main chapel is separated from the body of the church with an arcade made from pau-santo and a few pillars decorated with mosaics in 19th century Italian marble.

Economy
The Nazarene coastline is among the most dangerous in the world with its high waves, with local fishermen that have braved them for centuries. The town’s reliance on the sea for food production and economic viability is a result of the unique climate that differs from the surrounding Mediterranean eco-zone where land-farming is more common. Fishing in Nazaré is an activity carried out entirely by the village men, leaving the women to run daily life and daily governance in the town. These distinctly gendered roles and adherence to rudimentary fishing practices are widely believed to be the primary reason the town has not yet developed into a modern industrial society.

Geography
The municipality of Nazaré borders the Atlantic to the west and is surrounded entirely by the municipality of Alcobaça to the north, east and south.

Climate
Nazaré has a Mediterranean climate (Köppen: Csb) with warm, dry summers and mild, wet winters. The town's climate is moderated by the Atlantic Ocean and the seasonal upwelling phenomena typical of western Portugal gives it cool to warm, dry and overall sunny summers. As a result of the marine layer, morning and evening fogs are very frequent in the summer and can persist all day on rare occasions. The seasonal downwelling on the other hand is most common in the winter and gives Nazaré a more unstable, Atlantic dominated weather with often overcast, rainy and stormy days, clear days, however, are not uncommon in this season. Temperatures above 30 C or below 3 C are very uncommon. Nazaré also experiences some seasonal lag, with temperatures in September being warmer than those in June.

Human geography
Administratively, the municipality is divided into 3 civil parishes (freguesias):
 * Famalicão
 * Nazaré
 * Valado dos Frades

Tourism
Over the 20th century, Nazaré progressively evolved from a fishing village to a point of interest among Portuguese and international tourists, advertising itself as a picturesque seaside village.

Located on the Atlantic coast, it has long sandy beaches (considered by some to be among the best in Portugal), attracting many tourists in the summer. The town used to be known for the traditional costumes worn by the fishermen. Women traditionally wear a headscarf and flannel skirt, embroidered in seven different colours. The costumes are still worn occasionally.

It is quite visited due to the religious festivals dedicated to Our Lady of Nazaré, in which there are processions and also some profane celebrations.

Many of the tourists and Catholic pilgrims who visit Central Portugal, and especially the internationally famous Sanctuary of Our Lady of Fátima (located nearby in Cova da Iria), go to Nazaré for a visit or to watch the surfing championships.

Museums and cultural centers

 * Doctor Joaquim Manso Folk and Archeological Museum
 * Sacred Art Museum of Reitor Luís Nesi
 * Fisherman House-Museum
 * Nazaré Bullring
 * Nazaré Cultural Centre

Surfing
Nazaré is a popular surfing destination because of the high breaking waves that form due to the presence of the underwater Nazaré Canyon. The canyon increases and converges the incoming ocean swell which, in conjunction with the local water current, dramatically enlarges wave heights.

Due to the height of the waves, numerous surfing records have been set at Nazaré. In November 2011, surfer Garrett McNamara surfed a then-record-breaking giant wave measuring 23.8 m from trough to crest, at Praia do Norte, Nazaré. On 8 November 2017 Brazilian surfer Rodrigo Koxa broke the previous record by surfing a wave of 24.4 m. In October 2020, German surfer Sebastian Steudtner broke this record, riding a wave which was measured at 26.2 m.

There has been a marked increase in visitors to viewing points for surfing competitions, such as the lighthouse at the Fort of São Miguel Arcanjo, which has seen numbers increase from 80,000 visitors in 2015 to 174,000 in 2017.

On 18 January 2018 Brazilian big-wave surfer Maya Gabeira surfed a wave of 24.7 meters (74 feet).

On 5 January 2023 Brazilian professional surfer Márcio Freire died whilst practicing tow-in surfing.

International relations
Nazaré is twinned with:
 * 🇪🇸 Badajoz, Spain (since 1987)
 * 🇫🇷 Nogent-sur-Marne, France (since 1993)
 * 🇯🇵 Zushi, Japan (since 2004)

Notable people

 * Luis Soares (born 1964 in Nazaré), a long-distance runner, competed for France at the 1992 Summer Olympics
 * Brothers Ricardo Esgaio (born 1993) & Tiago Esgaio (born 1995), Portuguese footballers
 * Brothers Mauro Eustáquio (born 1993) & Stephen Eustáquio (born 1996), Canadian footballers

title: Nazaré, Portugal


text:
Fort Coligny

Fort Coligny was a fortress founded by Nicolas Durand de Villegaignon in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil in 1555, in what constituted the so-called France Antarctique historical episode.

For protection against attacks by hostile Indians and the Portuguese, Villegaignon built the fortress with the help of the 500 colonists who travelled with him in two ships armed by the king of France, on a small island called Serigipe by the Indians of the region, near the mouth of the large Guanabara Bay. The island was rocky and almost barren, but served Villegaignon's purpose of being near the shore, at the same time achieving a good defensive position against attacks from sea and land.

The fortress fell and was destroyed on March 17, 1560, under the siege of Portugal's navy and troops under the command of Mem de Sá, third Governor-General of Brazil. Villegaignon had already returned to France, in 1558.

The fortress was named as such in honor of Villegaignon's supporter and friend, the French Admiral and leader of the Huguenots, Gaspard de Coligny. After the foundation of Rio de Janeiro in 1565 by Estácio de Sá and the expulsion of the French in 1567 a new fortress was built there by the Portuguese, in order to defend the mouth of the Guanabara Bay, by crossing fire with two other fortresses, Guajará and Santa Cruz. This fortress was almost totally destroyed by bombardment in a revolt of the Navy, in 1893. Today, the island, which was renamed Island of Villegaignon, is home to the Naval School since 1938, and is now permanently connected to the continent, near the Santos Dumont Airport.

title: Fort Coligny


text:
User:Alientimes

I presume this is a page where I say who I am?

well, I'll get around to some other time!--Alientimes 19:52, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

title: User:Alientimes


text:
Talk:Insanity

"Parental authority"
Removed the first-sentence reference of the refusal of 'parental authority' as an indicator of insanity- having problems with your parents is a symptom of being a teenager, not of being insane. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.138.51.200 (talk) 08:09, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Early discussion
A recent discovery of "Indigo Children" has given another context to the term "insane", redeclaring the long-thought ideology that the ones deemed insane by society are truly gifted by God, and misunderstood among the unbelieving masses.

. . . Huh? What is this supposed to mean? 65.116.19.243 19:53, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Nonsense, I assume. I deleted it. Sietse 19:56, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I've put it back (slighly modified) because someone objected to its deletion. Sietse 15:57, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think people who believe in indigo people should have to take care of these gifted people and be responsible for their actions and well being. If the "insane" or the "gifted" person commits a crime under the believer's care, then the believer is liable to receive the same punishment as the offender. If Abby says your insane then you automatically are insane. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.245.249.133 (talk) 05:16, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Pat Robertson is linked on the page. Although I wouldn't necessarily disagree with the implication, it seems a bit...politically motivated. An abuse of Wikipedia, if you will. 11:04 a.m. Friday, Nov. 3, 2006

insanity
use any bigger words and you'll make me feel even more intellectually inferior. although mental health is a fascinating subject. Hey, insanity is not the disease!, sanity is! (yes, i am serious)

 * ...Makes sense.Maxwell's Daemon 03:56, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

cleanup
Hey folks,

I "object" to the "multiple uses" of "quotes" in this article, and also to the use of the pronoun "you", so I've slapped the article with a cleanup. --  — I. Neschek |  talk 21:31, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Hum. I object to that cleanup tag for something so minor, so I sort of went crazy (har har) and rewrote the entire thing. Notes:
 * I've removed the reference to indigo children. This theory is not based on a rejection of modern ideas about insanity, but on the rejection of what mainstream theory calls Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. A single mental disorder is not the same thing as insanity; even if the theory is broader, the discussion arguably belongs at mental illness.
 * I've removed this: "some such as Aldous Huxley commented that some kinds of "insanity" are possibly alternative modes of awareness which were commonplace and respected in other times and cultures, and have a place in human nature." This should be sourced, because I can't take it on faith, and neither should the reader. Huxley certainly commented on the relativity of sanity and insanity in general (Brave New World being the defining example), but something as specific as this deserves a reference. I'm no Huxley scholar, and I'm not saying it's false, but there's no good reason to believe it's true either, so I'd like one.
 * This better? If not (I may have gone a little overboard), I can only say: . Cleanup tag removed. JRM · Talk 00:31, 2005 Apr 28 (UTC)

Excuse me
maybe I missed it, but does it actually have what insanity is? the definition seemed to be pretty vague (first line) -Vellocet Malchickawick
 * "Insanity" is such an insanely broad and nontechnical term that it's very hard to give a definition that's not "pretty vague". Compare, that starts "a deranged state of the mind usually occurring as a specific disorder (as schizophrenia)". The rest of the article tries to establish what insanity is by describing how it is perceived and reacted to, which I think is pretty much all you can hope for. I'd love to be proven wrong, of course. JRM · Talk 21:00, 2005 Jun 2 (UTC)

Proposed Merge
I must oppose the proposed merge to Criminal insanity. The latter concept is deliberately more restrictive than common speech. Typically, criminal insanity is determined by a subject's ability to distinguish right conduct from wrong conduct. On this basis, for example, Jeffrey Dahmer was found not criminally insane. Notwithstanding this decision, it is common practice to consider Dahmer (as well as anyone else who stores human heads in a freezer for later elective consumption) insane. To eliminate the fundamental distinction which gave rise to the stricter legal definition is inaccurate and misleading. Xoloz 11:06, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I support the merge with Criminal insanity. The reason for my choice is: the term "Insanity" only exists under legal standards, and not under psychological standards. Although many people may consider individuals suffering from schizophrenia to be insane, they are not. (That is, unless they have provided clear and convincing evidence during the course of a criminal trial). ILFoxtrot 19:07 hrs, July 20, 2005.
 * While the definition of common insanity is notorious difficult to ascertain (and changes with time), there can be no doubt that, all throughout history, "insane lunatics" have been subject to social stigma quite apart from any legal meaning. Insanity did not begin in the 1820's (when the first Anglo-American legal definitions were made) and to limit a discussion of insanity to "legal insanity" merely because it is a more precise meaning would be a disservice to history, and to those thousands throughout history who (rightly or wrongly) were deemed "insane" without the benefit of a legal or psychological evaluation. Insanity has an historical meaning which cannot be discounted. Xoloz 02:22, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
 * That is an apt point. Based on it, I am persuaded to change my view on the merge.   If the page in question did contain more of a historical perspective, I would be convinced.  ILFoxtrot  23:04 hrs.  July 20, 2005.

I oppose the merge. Insanity can be a civil or a criminal matter depending the nature of the person's problem. Not everyone who is deemed "insane" has committed a crime and that is why mental health legislation has separate parts to deal with people who have committed a crime, opposed to those who have not. Saying that, criminal insanity is an inappropriate and stigmatising term (as is highlighted in the article). If the article needs to go, perhaps it could be incorporated into the article on forensic psychiatry, instead--Vincej 12:08, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Oppose on the grounds that criminal insanity is a specific legal concept, while "insanity" is a much broader, general concept. I'll readily admit this article is hardly complete on the matter, let alone well researched, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have an article on insanity in general just because the other articles are easier to write. The argument that "the term 'insanity' ... [does not exist] under psychological standards" is a red herring. Who says either criminal law or psychology need to be the final word on it? Insanity as a concept existed long before anything resembling modern psychology or psychiatry, and criminal insanity is specifically restricted to the question of whether a suspect is culpable. There may yet be something somewhere this article should be merged with, but I don't believe criminal insanity should be it. In fact, now that I look at the articles, I doubt whether criminal insanity (or as it currently redirects, criminally insane) should be an article at all, rather than a redirect to insanity defense, which is a lot more... sane, pardon the expression. I do not think this article should be merged with that, either. JRM · Talk 18:41, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I oppose the merger. As stated before, criminal insanity is a different definition than "regular" insanity, and I'd think that this would be better merged into Mental illness vice Criminally insane. Regardless, this article has merit and needs to be Expanded, instead of merged.--Mitsukai 17:12, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

I oppose the merger. Criminal insanity is about the popular stereotype of violent psychosis, which is far from what insanity is about. To merge the articles would be to suggest that all insane people are also violent, something which is very clearly wrong. They talk of two different things, and one of the two might not even exist as it is portrayed. (The criminally insane article) -- Harpalus

Oppose for the reasons stated above. They are different things. i support the merge of insanity and sanity they explain each other and they both need help.

I Oppose, but perhaps the opposite should occur: Sanity should remain the title of the article and insanity should be merged into it. --216.233.171.165 21:47, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I Oppose on the pure and simple basis that Sanity =/= Insanity, and therefore their respective articles should be kept separate. Besides, Insanity/madness are antiquated terms, whereas Sanity may easily be used in a modern context.

I oppose the merger of sanity into this article. LLBBooks 10:01, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Oppose. I think, the final word on this has to be that sometimes the prefixes "in-" or "un-" do not signify a partition into directly opposite meanings. (Has anybody else ever wondered how many people there might be that do not exactly possess an intuition for language logic?). I will now remove the merge tag once and and for all hopefully. -- Kku 08:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Historical Perspectives
One might remark in here that in Shakespeare's day people evidently thought that the correct way to cast out the demons was to torture the insane person until the demons felt like leaving. Thus in As You Like It III.ii., he has Rosalind say:

"Love is merely a madness, and, I tell you, deserves as well a dark house and a whip as madmen do; and the reason why they are not so punished and cured is that the lunacy is so ordinary that the whippers are in love too."

See also the somewhat harsh treatment that Malvolio receives in Twelfth Night because he is suspected of being insane.

See also the article on Psychiatric hospitals.

Any German speakers?
The German article on this topic is a featured article, and appears to be significantly more thorough than this one. Unfortunately my German reading is passable at best, and not up to the task of translating an article of that length and complexity. Can anyone with better German move over some of the good parts of that article that are missing here? We have pretty good articles on the more specific medical and legal topics of mental illness and criminal insanity respectively, but the cultural-historical-sociological aspects of insanity are poorly covered on the English Wikipedia. --Delirium 21:18, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

*
There's an asterisk * with no note- am I missing something? It's after dippy.

Religious Connections?
These days, if someone says that they hear God speaking to them, they are medicated and institutionalized. Before mental disorders were addressed this way, such people were made into prophets and the like, whose teachings some of us still follow today. If we were to meet them in the street, however, we might say that lithium is in order. William Blake and John the Baptist sound a great deal like schizophrenics, Catherine of Siena was bulimic. Perhaps something about the cultural shift involved there might be good to have in this article?MerricMaker 05:35, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
 * If you could find RSs, sure. I think it'd be entirely appropriate to talk about how society's views on the insane have shifted over time, and how religion has interacted with it - some of the insane have been seen as religious luminaries or become religious leaders, while others were regarded as satanic or cursed or cast away from god. Always fun. Titanium Dragon 15:05, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

G@m3r d00d
I've deleted the Gaming section under the impression that it's patent nonsense. I've never heard it used this way and I do a LOT of fragging. The only uses I've heard are within the "foolish" catagory, indicative of performing deeds so nominally unlikely to succeed as to indicate that the doer of said deed must have been somewhat lacking in sanity in order to attempt such a thing, in spite of its success (or not, as is most often the case). C.F. Crazy Good. 207.177.231.9 15:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

"Batsh*t" search
When one queries the word "batsh*t," Wikipedia's search engine redirects to the insanity article. Not sure of the relevance, but I found it humorous. --67.177.170.218 23:52, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Someone's idea of fun but a kid on a school project (about bats &/or bat guano) might find this unhelpful. I'll get the redirect removed. Also, WP is not censored for minors, so there is no need to be coy about language --Rodhullandemu (talk - contribs) 23:58, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, this now redirects to Fertilizer, where it is of most use. --Rodhullandemu (talk - contribs) 00:17, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Batshit is a normal term for insanity and should redirect here, bat shit should redirect to the fertilizer article.--The Dominator (talk) 20:41, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * "Bat shit" already redirects to Fertilizer, changed redirect for "batshit" to point here. I hope nobody's confused but nobody's mentioned it before. -- Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 20:54, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Consider creating a disambiguation page. Of course, it'd consist mostly of guano and this page.  I'd say that guano is the more proper of the two, as bat shit accurately describes guano, while the insanity reference is colloquial and could be restricted in an international context.  WLU (talk) 20:59, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * That seems OK, I've thought about an tag but someone coming to this article some other way would probably find it confusing to see "for other uses, see Organic Fertilizers" at the top. I suppose a DAB page wouldn't strain the server since it's unlikely ever to expand. I'll do it if nobody objects. -- Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 21:05, 22 January 2008 (UTC)-- Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 21:05, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It is not appropriate to have this at the top of the page. I don't think "Bat shit" or "Batshit" is commonly used by anybody that we need to worry about it.  But it's insensitive to include it at the top, and unencyclopedic.  -- David  Shankbone  21:16, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Not an ideal solution, I would agree. Would a DAB page work better after all? Just trying to find an efficient solution. -- Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 21:19, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I think a DAB works best. -- David  Shankbone  21:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Which the redirect page has now become. -- Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 21:47, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Now the real question - should bat shit redirect to the DAB page, or to guano? I leave this a question for the experts, but I'd say it should redirect to the DAB page.  WLU (talk) 21:57, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Odd. There's a page for Bat Shit, but not bat shit.  That shouldn't be a redlink.  WLU (talk) 21:58, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Convention is that apart from proper names, only the first letter of a title is capitalised, so bat shit is out of spec, whereas Bat shit is a proper article name but is still a redlink. People can type all variations in the search box and I'm not sure how that is normally dealt with. Both Bat shit and bat shit redirect as Bat Shit does, so that's OK, there is no need to deal with them. But the Bat Shit page needs to be moved to Bat shit anyway. I'll do that in a little while after all interested parties have commented. -- Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 22:03, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

<-- Now redirected, which has fixed all the former redlinks above. -- Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 00:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

"insane" is being daringly unconventional
Insanity is often used to mean irrational, or not behaving in one's own best interest. Or behaving in random ways. The following quote is not an example or alternative definition of insanity-- Notice Thoreau is suggesting the man IS NOT INSANE, but only SEEMS to be insane (to some). This use of insane is illustrated by the following quote from Henry David Thoreau's A Plea for Captain John Brown, an essay supporting the well-known militant abolitionist:

I have deleted the quote. The links to other Wiki articles here, also, do not elucidate anything about different views of insanity or historical perspectives on insanity but simply link for the sake of being linkable.

Quotations or better yet, citations that elucidate "insanity" as behaving randomly, unpredictablely, would be more appropriate. Cuvtixo (talk) 02:56, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * This sort of edit requires consensus to be established. But since you raised it, I'm sure other editors will voice an opinion. -- Rodhullandemu  (Talk) 03:10, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

 * I have to admit that I do not find that quote helpful at all and agree that if a quote is used, it should more clearly delineate an alternative or past usage of the term, preferably not in outdated English. English is my first language and I can barely understand what that quote is trying to add to the understanding of the term "insanity".  Mattisse  18:53, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Mitigating factor
Insanity is never a mitigating factor so I removed that section. Perhaps this stems from a confusing of "insanity" with "mental disorder". Insanity is a purely legal term when used in courts of law in the United States and has no medical meaning. Insanity can be used as a defense and if successful, the person legally is not guilty. Mental disorders, which are terms medical/psychological conditions, can be used as mitigating factors. Mattisse 18:32, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Semi-protect?
It may be time to semi-protect Insanity. Virtually all the edits in my watchlist on this page are vandalism and rvv's; it is a frequent target for IP vandals desiring to bash someone (e.g., Insanity is John). This isn't the most active page, and with all the vandalism, it doesn't leave us much time to improve the article. Thoughts? -- Mizu onna sango15 / 水 女 珊瑚15  17:57, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Semi-pp'd for a month. We have better things to do here, I think. -- Rodhull andemu  18:04, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks! -- Mizu onna sango15 / 水 女 珊瑚15  18:06, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Whoever wrote this is insane
First sentence: "a danger to HIMSELF and others"? What, women don't go nuts? 220.235.171.197 (talk) 17:40, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, it's not intended to convey a distinction. The encyclopedia is normally written so that references to the male includes the female unless a contrary meaning is intended. To try and write it with constructs such as "himself or herself" or "him/herself" is a barbaric use of language and unhelpful to the reader. And "nuts" is something of an archaism here. -- Rodhull andemu  18:03, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

"Well Known Quotes"
Why is this even in the article? This is only one quote mentioning insanity, not a collection of well known quotes doing so. And even if it were a collection of well known quotes regarding insanity, it still would have no place here. It's completely irrelevant that Albert Eisenstein said this.

I think quotes from famous people enhance the experience of an article. This particular quote defines the topic of the article, and oh, it is by the smartest man who ever lived. Jeffrey Pierce Henderson (talk) 16:05, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, the quote is not by Einstein, it's by John Dryden from his play "The Spanish Friar" in 1681. Einstein might have said it, but he didn't create it. It's been removed a number of times and re-inserted under the guise of "reverting vandalism", but I'm more inclined to side with those removing it, which I'm doing, as there's no point having a random quote of Einstein quoting another author, especially when there are original quotes from Friedrich Nietzsche, T.S. Eliot, Oliver Wendell Holmes that are omitted. --Komrade Kiev (talk) 22:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Agree, quotes are irrelevant to the topic and would be a magnet for trivia. Let's keep them out, please. -- Rodhull andemu  22:38, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

 * Disagree. If anyone has a better citation, maybe we can verify the claim that someone said it before Einstein. But, like it has already been said, the quote defines the topic. Please don't take this personal. If you want the edit removed, maybe an admin should make the call. Jeffrey Pierce Henderson (talk) 21:05, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I am an Admin, but Admins do not adjudicate in content disputes. What you are looking for is dispute resolution, maybe by seeking a third opinion. Meanwhile, it would seem that consensus is currently against inclusion. -- Rodhull andemu  21:08, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Consensus? You mean the people that don't like the addition out number the people who don't have a strong opinion either way? You are wrong. Just because some who think they control this area are outspoken doesn't make a consensus. The addition is relevant, very notable, and verifiable. The edit will stay unless found otherwise in a formal dispute. Jeffrey Pierce Henderson (talk) 17:06, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It doesn't work like that. OK, if you want an independent discussion, you shall have one. I will request a third opinion, bearing in mind that the onus is on an editor seeking inclusion to justify it. I don't rule out other editors reverting you either, but I am not going to do so out of respect for the encyclopedia and its processes. -- Rodhull  andemu  17:15, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, it does work like that. This world is not yours just because you are an admin. Out of respect for the encyclopedia and its processes? Are you for real? How about respect for human beings? Stop reverting my edit! There should be no problem with me being able to edit this page. As an admin shouldn't you be on the outside of the argument and not part of it? Do you like being an admin? Should admins be the ones requesting third opinions? I think you may have over stepped your bounds here. Jeffrey Pierce Henderson (talk) 18:00, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You seem to be confusing my role here as an admin with that as an editor. I doubt that I am. I have not, and cannot, protect this article, nor will I block you, although I do have an opinion on that matter. I reverted your edit per the emerging consensus set out above, and in which you represent a minority point of view. I did that as an ordinary editor, albeit one with some experience of writing good content, and not as an admin. Please address content, not other editors. Any editor as such may request an outside view. To suggest that admins cannot do that is ludicrous. Meanwhile, you are trying my patience. Let the consensus develop, and prevail as is normal throughout this encyclopedia. -- Rodhull  andemu  18:09, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * We don't need a a quote or collection of quotes here, regardless of who said the quote. That's what Wikiquote is for. OhNo itsJamie Talk 18:27, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Seconding the recommendation of Wikiquote. Quotes are useful if integrated into an article.  The inclusion of a section for quotations is a big flag indicating it should be taken to Wikiquote.  TJRC (talk)
 * Agreed. A stand-alone section of quotes is almost never appropriate, and certainly not in this specific instance. And JeffreyPierceHenderson needs to lay off the ad hominem arguments. — Satori Son 19:03, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Ohnoitsjamie has appeared again. Stalking my edits. Please! Can I get some relief from this admin? Will someone investigate this guy and expose what he does to editors? Please? Is there an admin that cares to look into the way this ohnoitsjamie follows me around like a fat ex-girlfriend? His RULING is always the opposite of whatever I say. Isn't this wrong? Jeffrey Pierce Henderson (talk) 19:15, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Last warning for personal attacks; the next time, you'll be blocked without further comment. OhNo itsJamie Talk 19:18, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. All this user does is argue with other editors. And for the record, I agree with the original poster, the quote doesn't belong. -- Quar te t  05:07, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * We are Wikipedia, not Wikiquote; quotes are generally not important here. This is an unnecessarily acrimonious discussion - what does a quote add to the page when it's coming from a non-expert in the field, be they Einstein or Dryden?  JPH - please calm down and stop making this about Ohnoitsjamie or other admins.  This is a routine discussion that has gotten way out of hand for no good reason.  It is now over.  WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/complex 11:58, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Asylum (2008 film)
An apparent version of this article on Insanity (beginning "Insanity, or madness, is a semi-permanent, severe mental disorder typically stemming from a form of mental illness.") appeared in this film at about 55:33. The Hogarth engraving of Bedlam can be seen. There are two typos, "sever" for "severe" and "sympton" for "symptom" though! Шизомби (talk) 20:45, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

i feel the need to say *diddo* — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.184.35.235 (talk) 20:20, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

yeah, i want some art references
that is all, maybe a section with picassos blue period and PKDs VALIS or movies, faucaults book some religious depictions etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.158.136.36 (talk) 18:59, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Page Name Change
Could I suggest changing the name of this article to "madness" and making it about the social, as opposed to medical or narrowly legal (as in insanity defence) definition of madness? Freekra (talk) 04:09, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

I would like to add something,
Senile Insanity : States of mental enfeeblement are always the result of failure of development or of structural changes in the cortical grey matter of the brain. If the enfeeblement is due to failure of development or brain damage occurring in early life, it is spoken of as idiocy or imbecility. Every form of insanity which occurs after a certain period of life is apt to be regarded by some observers as senile, but although the failing mental power may color the character of the symptoms it cannot be regarded as correct to designate, for instance, a recurrent form of mania as senile merely because it necessarily manifest itself in a subject who has lived into the senile period. On the other hand, many persons first suffer from mental derangement at an advanced period of life without at the same time manifesting any marked failure of mental power, while others only manifest their insanity as a result of the decay of their mental faculties."

http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/SCY_SHA/SENILE_INSANITY.html

Szaszian criticism?
What about adding some Szaszian criticism to this article related to madness and/or the insanity defense? EME44 (talk) 06:38, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

 * I'm not opposed to it per se, but I think most of that would better go in more specific articles, such as: Anti-psychiatry, Insanity defense, and Mental illness. --Delirium (talk) 01:56, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I think the article is bias from that start when it states "insanity, has been recognized throughout history in every known society" there is no proof of this. In our past history we had religion, and in religion people were susceptible to sin. Today sin is called mental illness or insanity. Gluttony for example used to be a sin coming from choice/freewill, now it is a medical disease called morbid obesity and can be treated with Gastric_bypass_surgery.

“In our fervor to medicalize morals, we have transformed every sin but one into sickness. Anger, gluttony, lust, pride, sloth are all the symptoms of mental diseases. Only lacking compassion (kindness) is still a sin.” Thomas Szasz.--Mark v1.0 (talk) 18:01, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

V-I-O
Nobody should pushNPOV, right? Gill run H20 (talk) 17:38, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Thinly veiled advertisement
"A notable example has been the use of the phrase 'insanely great' in the launch of the Apple Macintosh, subsequently also used to describe one of its developers." What relation does Apple have with insane people? Besides, its citations prove nothing, merely that the word "insane" was used in that sense in one particular situation. It would be much better to find perhaps a source from a thesaurus or a similar source indicating that "insane" has become a slang word for good. I suggest removing product references until this is done. 93.139.75.10 (talk) 21:24, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Agree, and I'll remove it.  Lova Falk     talk   19:55, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Merger proposal
Makes no sense to have a separate, poor, page on sanity. Neurohz (talk) 21:04, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

Then again the issue is should it all be under 'sanity', since that's the concept of which insanity is an aspect? Neurohz (talk) 21:39, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Makes more sense to me to combine them as Sanity. What does the Mental illness article look like, BTW?PopSci (talk) 02:09, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Mental illness redirects to Mental disorder. That is the article that this would redirect to if people were looking for information on "insanity" itself.  This article seems to be about the concept of insanity, which could be merged with the concept of sanity.  Not sure if I'm making sense.PopSci (talk) 02:12, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 November 2017
The term "barking mad" redirects to this article. A redirect disambiguation hatnote should be added pointing to the article for the television program Barking Mad. 2600:1702:4C0:9B60:3169:6D85:26F3:31F3 (talk) 05:12, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done  — Ammarpad (talk) 05:58, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Just saying. I'm no policy expert. But that has the effect of putting a promotion for the TV show on the top of this page, along with the other hatnote for the opera.PopSci (talk) 02:14, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 April 2018
Insanity is a psychological inconsistency independent of behavior. Jahansen.28.28 (talk) 23:05, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
 * ❌ No specific change requested. Natureium (talk) 23:21, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Madman (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 13:16, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Clarity concern: “lit.”
Context:

“Another Latin phrase related to our current concept of sanity is "compos mentis" (lit. "sound of mind")”

I assume this stands for “literally”. Is this a known term I’m not familiar with? I feel that although it isn’t indecipherable, enough readers wouldn’t “get it” that a change could/should be warranted.

Thoughts? UsersLikeYou (talk) 11:45, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Insanity
Crazy 24.147.46.144 (talk) 05:13, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

"🤪" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%F0%9F%A4%AA&redirect=no 🤪] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Edward-Woodrow :) [ talk ] 12:08, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Insanity


text:
Estelada

The Estelada (pl. Estelades; full name Senyera estelada, lit. 'starred flag' or 'lone star flag', from estel, "star") is a flag flown by Catalan independence supporters to express their support for an independent Catalonia or independent Països Catalans (Catalan Countries, the Catalan-speaking territory, which includes Valencia and the Balearic Islands). The design of the Estelada comprises the red-and-yellow bars of the Senyera, with the addition of a five-pointed star in a triangle at the hoist.

The use of this flag as a protest symbol within Catalan nationalism has become more notable since the 1970s Spanish transition to democracy. The self-proclaimed Catalan Republic of 2017 did not adopt the Estelada as its national flag, instead using the regular Senyera.

Design and meaning
The flag dates from the early 20th century; it was most probably designed in 1918 by Vicenç Albert Ballester i Camps. It came from combining the traditional four red stripes over a yellow field of the Senyera with a blue triangle at the hoist containing a five-pointed white star, inspired by the flags of Cuba, the Philippines and Puerto Rico. Later designs combine the Senyera with a yellow triangle at the hoist containing a five-pointed red star. In both designs the lone star motif means Catalan independence.

History
The 3rd Article of the provisional Constitution of the Catalan Republic, written and approved in 1928 in Cuba by the Assemblea Constituent (Constituent Assembly) of Catalan separatism, specifically provided that the official flag of the Catalan Republic should consist of four red bars on a yellow field, superimposed with a white five-pointed star in a blue triangle.

The star in the flag comes from the early days of nationalism, the lone star symbolising national freedom and independence. Cuba's fight for its independence was watched closely by the Catalanists of the nineteenth century and in 1906, when the Cuban War of Independence ended, the Centre Catalanista de Santiago de Cuba (Catalanist Centre of Santiago de Cuba) was created. An embryonic Catalan estelada flag could already be seen: in the middle of a senyera there was a white star with five points.

The first star with a clear nationalist intent known in Catalonia is from before 1904, associated with the Unió Catalanista (Catalanist Union). It is a stamp commemorating the acquisition of the Pi de les Tres Branques (Three-Branched Pine) by the Catalanist Union.

Later, in 1906, a star appeared in the nameplate of the magazine Fora Grillons! (Breaking Chains!), published in Santiago de Cuba by Catalan exiles - a publication that had already clearly proclaimed the independence of Catalonia. During the late 1910s, once World War I was over, Europe saw a wave of new nation-states being created, with the assistance of President Woodrow Wilson.

The politics of the League of Nations (and later the United Nations) allowed many nations to seize the opportunity of independence, and Czechoslovakia, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and Iceland did so in 1918; other nations like Armenia, Azerbaijan, Ukraine, Belarus and Georgia, were declared independent, but were then immediately annexed by the Soviet Union. From the nations that hoped for independence, pressure groups began to mobilize internationally. In the Catalan case, the Comitè Pro-Catalunya (Pro-Catalonia Committee) was one of the most active. It was in this context that a need was perceived to have a flag as a symbol of Catalan aspiration; and, of course, a star appeared on it. Since then the estelada flag began to be spoken of. It was probably designed by Vicenç Albert Ballester, with the blue triangle signifying the blue sky of humanity, and the white star symbolizing freedom.

The first photograph in which the flag appeared was in a publication dated the bulletin L’intransigent (The Intransigent) in 1918. It shows a group of young Americans and Catalan separatists holding both flags. Also in 1918, there was a comic strip in circulation—a stamp without postal value—dedicated to the future League of Nations, where there was also an estelada.

There are several kinds of estelada. One is in the last number of La Tralla ("The Whip", a radical separatist magazine from the 1920s), before the coup d'état by Miguel Primo de Rivera. The other is in a document published by the Comitè Pro-Catalunya written in Catalan and Arabic, to greet and encourage one of the Moroccan leaders who revolted against Spain.

In Cuba, it appeared for first time in the nameplate of the magazine La Nova Catalunya (1920), (The New Catalonia). The estelada flag went on to appear in other Catalan separatist publications.

An estelada was owned by Francesc Macià during the failed invasion of Prats de Molló in 1926; it appeared between the imprisonment of the Catalan volunteers and their transfer to Paris to be put on trial. There are photographs of the volunteers with the estelada in several other places.

In 1928, with the presidency of Francesc Macià in the Constituent Assembly of the Catalan independence movement, the estelada was again seen, and the Catalan separatists made it their flag. During this period a new practice began, and continues to the present day; whenever a prominent Catalan nationalist dies, as a sign of mourning, his comrades will cover the red bars of the estelada with a black cloth, leaving the star visible to signify that they will continue pursuing the same ideals.

Later, during the period from 1931 to 1936, the estelada still appears numerous times. Some of these flags only have two colours due to the shortage of money, but the traditional estelada with the blue triangle and white star was kept.

After the Francoist dictatorship came to power, the Front Nacional de Catalunya (National Front of Catalonia), or FNC, which used the Catalan flag and the estelada, was formed in response to the new Spanish nationalist regime.

During the sixties, in the university section of the FNC, there was a faction called the Partit Socialista d’Alliberament Nacional dels Països Catalans, (Socialist Party for the National Liberation of the Catalan Countries), or PSAN. Because this party wanted to make its own socialist and Marxist ideas clear, it decided to change the colour of the star to red; in 1969, this new version of the estelada started to appear at PSAN meetings.

In the mid-seventies, the PSAN had, in turn, its own splits. They led to the creation of a new movement, the Moviment d’Unificació Marxista (Movement of Marxist Unification), which started to use the red star inside a white triangle, while the PSAN kept the red star inside a yellow triangle.

The unification of the two versions of the flag could only take place when the Movement of Marxist Unification and the Bloc d’Esquerra d’Alliberament Nacional (Left National Liberation Bloc), or BEAN, both disbanded. At that time the flag with the red star and the yellow triangle were a symbol of both socialist and communist separatists.

Current use
As of 2005 both kinds of Estelada flag (the classic and the red) are used at the same time.

After the Fall of Communism in Europe the red star of the Estelada groga (yellow estelada) has steadily lost some of its original leftist meaning, but not totally. It is sometimes currently flown just as a simpler and less cluttered version of the Estelada in the traditional Catalan colors.

The estelada is ubiquitous as a simplified symbol - four vertical bars topped by a star, sprayed or daubed on walls, lampposts or mailboxes all over Catalonia. These simple graffiti are most often in one basic color, either in black or red. More elaborate large pro-independence graffiti use often the red-star Estelada as a symbol.

In 2016, the Spanish government prohibited football fans from bringing esteladas to the Copa del Rey final match between Barcelona and Sevilla, held in Madrid. The government applied the article 2.1 of the Law on Sports, which prohibits the display of symbols that "incite, foment or help violent or terrorist behavior." A Madrid judge overruled the ban after Barcelona complained, citing freedom of expression.

Valencian nationalist Senyera
The Valencian nationalist Senyera, also known simply as Estrelada, is a flag of Valencian Community that evolved from the regional flag based on the former Catalan Estelada.

The white star version has been used by Valencian nationalist groups since the early 20th century. Some of these groups may be blaverist (Valencian regionalist, as opposed to Catalan nationalist) in their ideology, especially those with more pro-sovereign positions.

The oldest extant document showing this Estrelada - with a red star - is a war poster of the Valencian Left.

Variations
Since its creation, various Estelades, or Estrelades (such as the Andalusian, Aragonese or Galician separatist flags) have been adopted by leftist separatist movements within Spain. Some Estelades have also been used for other purposes than separatism.

title: Estelada


text:
OpenEdge Advanced Business Language

OpenEdge Advanced Business Language, or OpenEdge ABL for short, is a business application development language created and maintained by Progress Software Corporation. Typically classified as a fourth-generation programming language, it utilizes an English-like syntax to simplify software development. The language was called PROGRESS or Progress 4GL up until version 9, but in 2006, PSC changed the name to OpenEdge Advanced Business Language (OpenEdge ABL), in order to overcome a presumed industry perception that 4GLs were less capable than other languages.

OpenEdge ABL helps developers to develop applications optionally using its own integrated relational database and programming tools. These applications are portable across computing systems and allow access to various popular data sources without having to learn the underlying data access methods. This means that the end-user of these products can be unaware of the underlying architecture.

By combining a fourth generation language and relational database, OpenEdge ABL allows the use of the Rapid Application Development (RAD) model for developing software.

History
The original Progress 4GL was designed in 1981 as an architecture independent language and integrated database system that could be used by non-experts to develop business applications by people who were not computer scientists but were knowledgeable in their business domain. At that time, business applications were often written in COBOL (for machines like corporate IBM mainframes) and sometimes in C (for departmental minicomputers running the UNIX operating system). When the IBM PC became popular, it developed a need for business software that could be used on those and other inexpensive computers. The Progress system was created to be used on both IBM PC machines running DOS and on a variety of computers that could run UNIX and minicomputer operating systems such as OpenVMS.

Syntax and semantics
Progress ABL is a strongly typed, late-bound, English-like programming language. Although initially designed as a procedural language, starting with version 10.1 it was enhanced with object-oriented grammar elements, which can be mixed with the original procedural style. A block of code may have a transaction scoped to it, in which case database changes will be committed when it completes. An error raised within such a block will undo these changes. These defaults may be overridden by the programmer.

Simple programs run without a Graphical User Interface, but there is syntax to create one programmatically, or programmers can use the provided tools to build one.

Hello World
The following ABL code creates a window with the text "Hello, World!" and a button labelled "OK".

A message-box can be used to achieve the same effect: The  parameter controls the message icons, and can be replaced with   or   for different looks.

The most basic "Hello, World" program is:

SQL equivalent
The SQL statement: (along with your chosen language connection and display procedures) can be expressed in Progress / ABL as:

SQL equivalent
The SQL statement: (again, along with your chosen language connection and display procedures) can be expressed in Progress / ABL as: .. (Some assumptions have been made about indexing, locking and transaction scoping in order to keep this example simple.)

Data access in the ABL is record based as opposed to result-set based processing in traditional SQL-based languages. In SQL operations work on a set of records, in the ABL, the operation is applied to a record at a time - much like using a cursor in SQL but much more efficient. Record-based processing provides a clean and reliable locking mechanism which allows the developer to EXECUTIVE-LOCK, SHARE-LOCK or NO-LOCK a record when accessed by the application.

Application areas
The language is used in a wide variety of application areas, some examples:

 * Mortgage and Auto Loan Origination at US Banks
 * Rental Car Reservation Systems
 * Manufacturing ERP
 * Wholesale Distribution ERP
 * Warehouse Systems
 * Transportation Systems
 * Commercial Service Force Dispatching
 * Security Card Systems
 * Gaming Systems (think Las Vegas, not video)

OpenEdge can be used for:
 * Microsoft Windows GUI (Graphical User Interface)
 * WWW Programming (UNIX and Windows)
 * CHUI (CHaracter User Interface) (UNIX and Windows)
 * JSON and XML appserver programming (UNIX and Windows)
 * as well background process programming (UNIX and Windows).

title: OpenEdge Advanced Business Language


text:
Talk:Workplace Shell

SOM paradigm
although one could dispute whether the SOM paradigm was close enough Close enough to what? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lousyd (talk • contribs) 2004-10-15T14:55:34 (UTC)

title: Talk:Workplace Shell


text:
User:Johnnyeponymous

Johnny Eponymous is a pen name of Christopher J. Garcia. Chris spends his days working at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View CA as the Assistant Curator with a speciality in the history of video games, artificial intelliganece and pre-1950s computers. He's an avid researcher of the history of science fiction fandom and film history. He also works for the Cinequest Film Festival, writes non-fiction, attends cons and generally watches a lot of stuff happen, then writes about it. He was nominated for two Hugo Awards in 2007. His fanzine, The Drink Tank, runs mostly weekly on eFanzines.com.

He sees the wikipedia as the future storehouse of all knowledge: great and small.

Drop him a line at garcia@computerhistory.org to engage in debates.

title: User:Johnnyeponymous


text:
Talk:Jimmy Buffett

ok to add this 1975 photo?
at https://www.flickr.com/photos/hmk/53159364482/ It has a Attribution 2.0 Generic (CC BY 2.0) license https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/. Is that OK with Wikipedia? Anyone else is welcome to add it too. Ttulinsky (talk) 20:13, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

 * If the copyright owner of the photograph actually licensed it as CC BY, then it could be uploaded to Commons. However, I can find the same image on various other websites (searching for "Jimmy Buffett with Willie Nelson in 1975") and therefore I doubt the Flickr user is the copyright holder, and I would question the license. 98.170.164.88 (talk) 02:31, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Just some suggestions...
First of all, great piece! --Would be fun to see a mention of his run-in with Sheriff Buford Pusser of Walking Tall fame. I've heard Buffett mention this during concerts. --No mention of the Coconut Telegraph newsletter that ran (I THINK it's now defunct) for several years; I used to subscribe. --Would be great to see a brief mention of JB's affinity with the Navy, such as his doing survival training at a Navy facility and his friendship with some naval officers, and his public service award granted by, I believe, either the Superintendent of the Naval Academy or maybe it was the Chief of Naval Operations. Finz2right (talk) 16:34, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Adding Howard Livingtson as musician perpetuating Bufffet's "seaside-and-booze themes"
I would like to add Howard Livingston in the "Musical Legacy" sesction of the Jimmy Buffett page as a musician "that have "latched on to his seaside-and-booze themes" such as Kenny Chesney, Alan Jackson, and Zac Brown."

I carefully followed Wikipedia guidelines for "Notability" for doing so, and I tried to cite credible third-party sources.

However after I posted the addition, at 03:02, 21 September 2023 Binksternet Reverted my addition saying "Let's keep it to well-known artists here."

But my reasons for adding Howard Livingston is because he seemed to fit squarely into the "Notability" guidelines on Wikipedia for adding musicians, especially as referring to Jimmy Buffett, as Howard Livingston actually satisies at least two of the criteria applicable to Musicians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(music)#Criteria_for_musicians_and_ensembles

I documented the addition of Howard Livingston to the list with references to valid news sources - CBS News, Public Radio, newspapers, etc. As the first article I cite says, he is a *major* local musician in Key West, and was the "master of ceremonies" of a celebration about Jimmy Buffett held there earlier this month, where he spoke about Buffett. He also was recently a major presenter along with elected officials - five of the Monroe County Commissioners - celebrating the 200th anniversary of Key West, showing his importance to the Florida Keys as a musician who exemplified the Jimmy Buffet lifestyle and music. Howard Livingston's music is "spot on" in the Jimmy Buffett style, yet all his music is original and he does not do "covers." He has been featured on The Today Show, Good Morning America, The Early Show, The Travel Channel, and The Weather Channel. . His song “Living On An Island” was the theme song for the Discovery Network - a major cable television station - “Buying The Beach” series He has won 10 awards from the national "Trop Rock Association." So how can he not be "well known" as you claim? Specifically, Howard Livinston seems to satisfy two of the dozen Wikiepedia criteria Notability for musicians:

'''7. Has become one of the most prominent representatives of a notable style or the most prominent of the local scene of a city. 12. Has been a featured subject of a substantial broadcast segment across a national radio or television network.'''

I didn't think I needed to cite more than the several news media citations that I already gave in order to show his satisfying these criteria. It seems that would be overkill?

Do I need to create a Wikipedia page focused solely on Howard Livingston before I can add him as a reference to the list of major other artists who perform in the spirit of Jimmy Buffet?

I have many more citations I could give than those I included here to justify the addition of Howard Livingston to the list of musicians that are part of Buffett's musical legacy, but I didn't want to include more than a few citations, but I could give more in a full article.

What I submitted to this Jimmy Buffet page that Binksternet deleted was:

Added musician Howard Livingston and external references showing his influence as part of the Key West "trop rock" phenomenon.). with these references:

Muirpower (talk) 14:53, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

 * To be clear, we are talking about this edit which added Howard Livingston along with Kenny Chesney, Alan Jackson, and Zac Brown who have cited Buffett as an influence. I immediately responded to the fact that the other three artists are famous unlike Livingston. The addition was lopsided.
 * Most of the cited sources don't even mention Buffett. When there are sources that don't mention the article topic then you are looking at some form of synthesis rather than sources stating a connection explicitly.
 * I'm sure that Buffett would be considered important to the story of Livingston's career. But is Livingston important to Buffett? Nobody says so. Does mentioning Livingston help the reader understand Buffett? I don't see it.
 * Wikipedia has some advice about this kind of thing. WP:COATRACK says that we should not tack on some other topic to try and get more eyeballs on that topic. WP:WTAF says "write the article first" before asserting that a topic is notable. Binksternet (talk) 15:26, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

 * So, would you and Wikipedia be open to my starting a separate "new article" on Howard Livingston? Would he qualify as "notable" sufficiently for you if posted separately from Jimmy Buffett? I do have multiple additional published sources from what I believe are independent credible media (news sources, etc.) other than his official website. Muirpower (talk) 17:15, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * You are welcome to start the Howard Livingston article. Once it is written, you should not try to shoehorn Livingston into this article by inserting his name after the Jon Pareles quote "latched on to his seaside-and-booze themes". Only those musicians listed by Pareles should follow that quote. Otherwise you would be falsely implying that Pareles listed Livingston.
 * If the Livingston biography can stand on its own, then we should tell the reader something better tailored to him. We should summarize the sources talking about how Livingston was influenced by Buffett. Binksternet (talk) 03:05, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I'll work on it. The only reason I attempted to what you call "shoe horn" him in this article was because Livingston to me is mostly a musician who fully *exemplifies" Jimmy Buffet's style of music, and a whole article independent *might* by some seem overkill though that may depend on who who talk to. At first I thought he was mostly of regional importance, but as I research him further it seems clear that he meets both prongs of criteria #7 of the Wikipedia "Notability" criteria for Musicians. I'll try to collect as many *valid* references for an entry on him to incorporate before I attempt to post it. Thanks for your guidance on this!  (I will say that as a historian, Wikipedia's specific rejection of Primary sources seems to me to be very strange. In all academic fields I've been involved with, "Primary sources" always have precedence over "secondary sources."  If Wikipedia does not follow traditional academic practices, it looses a lot of my esteem.) Muirpower (talk) 22:33, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
 * The goal of Wikipedia is to summarize published sources. There is a policy called WP:No original research to prevent folks from using Wikipedia as their publishing platform. The publishing must happen elsewhere. WP:SECONDARY sources are the best ones for Wikipedia, although limited usage of primary and tertiary sources is allowed.
 * Every scholar, author and journalist should use primary sources and perform their own research. Wikipedia users are not allowed to do this. Binksternet (talk) 00:00, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Jimmy Buffett


text:
File:Cn0205a.jpg

scanned by me from an 1885 Porter catalog

title: File:Cn0205a.jpg