text:
Talk:MPEG-2

Patents
When do the patents expire? Great job on the list of patent holders, but does anyone have the list of actual For Part 1 and 2 you can look into the ITU-T Patent Database, since they both parts are common texts. They are known in the ITU-T side as H.222.0 and H.262, respectively. Here is the URL for the database:

http://itu.int/ITU-T/dbase/patent

 * 2020s. US 7,020,204 doesn't expire until at least 2021.  There is now a list of US patents in the article, so feel free to check more closely.  Jrincayc (talk) 15:32, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, using this program: (Program snipped, new version put on my user page at User:Jrincayc/Patent_utils)

piped through sort -n got the following list so the answer is July 2023, unless some of the patents don't count Jrincayc (talk) 03:40, 6 June 2008 (UTC):

 * Back in the early 90's, the rule for patent life was basically the later of 20 years from date of filing or 17 from the date of issue. Some patents, however are continuations or divisions of other patents.  A continuation is where the assignee files another set of claims using the original disclosure at some point during the patent examination, where as a divsional is where an application is split into two sets of claims related to different parts of the invention which each get seperate examinations.  The example above of US7,020,204 is actually a division of US6,563,875 which itself is a continuation of another application which is based on a foreign patent application filed back in 1988 and therefore expires well before 2022.  The expiration of continuations is generally close to the expiration of the original 'parent' applicaton.  The table below does not account for these factors.  Generally, most of the patents should be expired by around the 20th anniversary of the public release in 1996 (~2016).  Many will be well before that.   Dspark76 (talk) 23:48, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Update, I just looked on the MPEG LA List and US 7,020,204 already expired on January 29, 2010. Dspark76 (talk) 00:01, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I have updated the program to try and take account of continuations and divisions. However, all the information is not in machine parseable form.  (On example of missing data is that Patent term adjustment data is not available in the text versions, only in the pdfs.)  Never the less, this should be better. Jrincayc (talk) 03:44, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Now the program grabs the term extension from Google's OCRed data. These should be closer.  However, there are still some times that the data needed is only in the English that is in the case text, so these still can be somewhat inaccurate.  US7,020,204 is now calculated by the program to be January 1, 2010, which is a lot closer to its actual expiration date of January 29, 2010 than before, when it was 2022.  Jrincayc (talk) 12:34, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

As a table using User:Jrincayc/Patent_utils:

How many seconds of bitrate buffer is allowed in the restriction of MPEG-2 DVD?
In compressing Your materials into MPEG2 format (for DVD), for the best results You should go with VARIABLE 2 PASS compression, where the lowest bitrate shouldn't be under 1.5 Mb/s, and the hightest 8 Mb/s...

 * There's nothing wrong with going under 1.5Mb/s. Some scenes CANNOT be coded with a bitrate higher than this. Many others will look just fine below this bitrate. Snacky 17:57, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Although, some aplications will allow You even 12 Mbit/s, and the movie DVD standard bitrate is (not officialy, but "from mouht to mouth") declared maximum 9 Mb/s, You shouldn't go above 8 Mbit/s...

 * The problem is that players aren't required by the spec to play stuff like this, and many of them won't. If your player plays it, more power to you. The spec (officially) allows a maximum video bitrate of about 9.8mbit/s. Feel free to go above 8mbit/s, as any compliant player will support this with no problem. Read the DVD article. Snacky 17:57, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

So, 8 would be the anwer:), I guess!

PS

Higher bitrates can be as harmful as too low bitrates, 'cause high bitrates can be too demanding for the reading equipment (doesn't matter if You try to watch it from hard disk or from real stand-alone DVD player), you can expect some twitching and trambling...

 * "maximum bitrate" is only a meaningful in the context of a buffer size, which is 1835 kbits in the case of DVD. In theory, this means local bitrate may actually exceed the allowed max (9800kbit/s) as long as it does so for a period of less than about 0.187 seconds, and as long as it doesn't fill up the 1835 kbit buffer. Snacky 17:57, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Improvements to this article
Request made by Daniel.Cardenas on the article page but moved to here.

"Please help improve this article with a more novice introduction. A simple diagram that describes compression would be very helpful. For example compression is achieved thru time bases similarities in the frames and spacial, nearby pixels, similarities."

Maybe this information is elsewhere in Wikipedia in the form of a simple summary (rather than spread out descriptions). AlyM 08:50, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * It think this request works better in the main article. Perhaps as a footer or something.  Something like the standard wikipedia text that says this is a stub.  The article in in current state is rated poor by me for the average person.  It needs much more introductory material.  Daniel.Cardenas

 * Sure, using an appropriate stub-type marker or something would be fine (perhaps cleanup, confusing or technical), but not having a section in the article requesting the change. Article content vs. meta-content or something. AlyM 17:37, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Split off "Video coding"
Since almost all modern motion compensated codecs use the same techniques, there should be a separate article about it. And it could start based off of the "Video coding (simplified)" section. That exact section could be copied word-for-word to the much leaner MPEG-1 article, and it'd be equally accurate. Snacky 19:34, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Definately, a simple and generic video coding article would be better than having the content here. AlyM 15:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

High BitRates
The bit rates in the tables seem to high. For example 80 Mbps for ATSC. I thought it was more like 20 Mbps for high-def 1080i. GregorLarson 18:35, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You misunderstood the profile & level charts.

 * 80mbps is the highest bitrate allowed by MP@HL. Therefore, any application that needs LESS than this bitrate could conform to MP@HL.

 * The Applications on the right side column are intended as examples. I edited the column header in hopes of preventing any more confusion. Snacky 18:54, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

The Panasonic MPEG-2-based HD product bitrate is reported at 300Mbit/s. That's too high; a single-layer HD-DVD is 15gB, which would be, which does not match the 1:42:00 minimum for HD-DVD with MPEG-2. I am far more inclined to believe it is 20Mbit/s as reported at Comparison of high definition optical disc formats. -- Adam Katz 19:07, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not wrong. As Snacky said, 300Mbps is maximum bit rate allowed in 422P@HL (ISO/IEC 13818-2 table 8-13). An application which conforms to 422P@HL, such as "The Panasonic MPEG-2-based HD product", may and likely use less bit rate. To clarify it, I've added some explanation in the article. Motonari 20:27, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Intro Block Diagram
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mpeg.svg The diagram may be misleading as it does not show the lower level containerization of the MPEG PES (Program Elementary Stream) as being a level below TS (DVB Transport Stream). Also, DVB-S2 is an 8 point constellation of QPSK that allows for additional bitrate in the satellite transponder by optimizing the error correction scheme and the Nyguist roll-off factor, but the DVB-S2 System does not modulate MPEG-4 directly as shown. The same MPEG containerization scheme and the same 188/204 DVB Transport Stream Schemes are used. Also, MPEG-4 does appear in DVB-C, DVB-S, and DVB-T (particularly in Italy and Spain) but the higher bandwidth requirements of MPEG-4 HD force fewer PES per carrier. This is a problem that is improved bt DVB-S2, and will be improved by DVB-T2 (coming soon), and DVB-C2 (under definition). Never-the-less, DVB-S, C, and T do carry high definition (not implied by the diagram). 123.192.95.51 (talk) 11:27, 21 December 2009 (UTC) Stan Hemphill, Taipei, Taiwan - 21 Dec 2009

Revised Intro and Video Coding Sections
I starting looking at this and related articles when a change in the kernel of the Linux operating system caused a program that I use to record digital TV to stop working. In attempting to find a way to get it working again, I sought information about the nature of the incoming signal, e.g., details about MPEG-2 packets. Unfortunately, I found the existing wikipedia articles hard to understand (and I am a retired electronics engineer.) There was lots of technical jargon but little clarity. After some further research elsewhere on the web, I thought that I would see if I could rewrite parts of the current MPEG-2 article to make it clearer.

I rewrote the first paragraph primarily to emphasize the importance of standard. The value of the industries applying this standard is in the hundreds of billions of dollars. The number of viewers who use the standard today or who will start using it in the near future -- most unknowingly, of course -- is probably in the hundreds of millions.

MPEG-2 is not a group of standards. Rather, it is one standard with several parts.

I moved the sentence about patents in the first paragraph to the patent section. The issue of patents is important but I doubt that it is the primary concern of most readers of this article.

I rewrote the section on video compression, primarily, to introduce the technical ideas in a more logical order starting with the basic idea of a digital TV picture.

I added a reference to the ISO site and to a couple of external links that I found helpful. Also, I corrected a minor error in the "See Also" section.

Some further changes seem desirable:
 * 1)  Move the ISO/IEC 13818 section to immediately after the introductory section and merge it with the introduction paragraphs that discuss the parts of the standard.  Also, there is now an 11th part to the MPEG-2 standard: IPMP (Intellectual Property Management and Protection).
 * 2)  Expand the section on MPEG-2 audio compression to summarize how it works.
 * 3)  Make the separate MPEG-2 Transport Stream article a section of the MPEG-2 article.

For what it's worth, I found copies of the various parts of MPEG-2 standard on the web. But I wonder about copyright issues. ISO will sell you copies of each part of the standard but they are pricey.

I did get my DTV recording program working by changing the name of a variable. The problem had nothing to do with MPEG-2.

Ivar Y 15:37, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

 * The entire video coding discussion should be moved to either Video coding or some other separate article. (hint: 99% of what's said about it in this article would also be true in MPEG-4 Part 2, MPEG-1, H.263...) I suggest you work on that instead. Then, the redundant section should be mostly removed from this article. Merging transport stream and audio is probably a bad idea. Snacky 20:14, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I half agree with you. However, I think that when people come to the MPEG-2 article, they should be given information about MPEG-2.  They should see more than a list of unfamiliar or vague technical terms configured as hyperlinks.  If people are looking for a picture of George Washington, they want a complete picture in one location.  They don't want to be told that they can find a pictures of ears in the article on ears, that a picture of eyes is available in the article on eyes, that noses are discussed at still another location, and so on.

 * On the other hand, I agree that it is undesirable to keep reinventing descriptions of common processes like video compression.

 * One solution, which in practice may be difficult to achieve, is to provide a summary description of important processes (e.g., video compression) in the immediate article (e.g., MPEG-2) and to link to the more specialized articles (e.g., about video compression) for a more detailed discussion.

 * Unfortunately, when I start looking in the wikipedia for articles relating to video compression, I find lots of them:

 * video compression
 * video coding
 * video codec
 * JPEG
 * quantization (image processing)
 * color quantization
 * multimedia compression
 * H.262
 * digital video
 * interlace
 * B pictures

 * Ivar Y 07:20, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Aspect ratio
NTSC MPEG-2 also allows for a 640x480 resolution at 29.97 fps. El Mariachi94 06:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)El Mariachi94

D-frame
The video compression article mentions "D-frame". What is a D-frame ?

When I click on "D-frame" to learn more, I am redirected here to MPEG-2. But this MPEG-2 article never mentions "D-frame". (Is there some other article that would be a more appropriate destination for that redirect?) --68.0.120.35 03:09, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

 * There is no "D-frame" in MPEG-2 video (see ISO/IEC 13818-2 Table 6-12), therefore this redirection sounds wrong. Motonari 16:57, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

There are D-Frames in MPEG-1. They are intra frames that have only DC component, so the image is made of very big (8x8 blocks) blocks. They have been created with intension for fast-play-forward (as they don't need use of full IDCT tranform). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.215.50.234 (talk) 22:13, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Interlacing is not for reducing the amount of data
Interlacing was necessary to avoid flickering because the frequency had to be synchroneous to the power supply frequency; 50 Hz (Europe) or 60 Hz (USA) was not enough.

The amount of data is determined by the number of image per second, 25 i/s (Europe) or 30 i/s (USA).

Interlacing does not reduce the number of image per second, it just avoids flickering.

Of course, with higher frequencies like today, you could increase the image rate, but mind that 18 i/s is enough to have a good fluidity (cinema at the time of silent films). Cinema is at 24 i/s because of optic sound (increasing speed ⇒ increasing bandwidth) and TV is at 25 or 30 i/s to match the power supply frequency (pb of parasites, now solved).

cdang| write me 15:08, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Yes, it is.
 * This is what Interlace article states: storing a full video frame and scanning it twice would require a frame buffer, a method that did not become feasible until the late 1980s. In addition, the limits of vacuum tube technology required that CRTs for TV be scanned at AC line frequency in order to prevent interference. (This was 60 Hz in the US, 50 Hz Europe.) In 1936 when the analog standards were being set in the UK, CRTs could only scan at around 200 lines in 1/50th of a second. By using interlace, a pair of 202.5-line fields could be superimposed to become a sharper 405 line frame. The vertical scan frequency remained 50 Hz, so flicker was not a problem, but visible detail was noticeably improved. After the Second World War, improvements in technology allowed the US and the rest of Europe to adopt systems using progressively more bandwidth to scan higher line counts, and achieve better pictures. However the fundamentals of interlaced scanning were at the heart of all of these systems.

 * If the speed of scan were better, than there would be no interlace - each frame would be scanned in progressive mode and projected twice, so the main reason was limited bandwidth.

 * Yes, interlace does not reduce number of images per second, but it lowers factual resolution of each image thereby reducing amount of data - 25p has twice as much data as 25i at the same resolution.
 * --Alexander Iwaschkin 15:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

MC is performed before DCT and Quantization
In Macroblocks, it reads:

To correct for this, the encoder computes the strings of coefficient values as described above for both macroblocks and, then, subtracts one from the other.

Encoders first subtract a reconstructed block (= pixel value) from a predicted block, and then computes DCT coefficient on the difference. So, I'm afraid the current article has an error here. Motonari 17:35, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

422P@LL? 422P@H14?
In the latest published standard (ISO/IEC 13818-2 2000), there is no 422P@LL nor 422P@H14. As far as I know, there is no plan to add them. Could anyone provide a reference if there is good reason to say "Potential future"? If there is no such references, I suggest to remove them.

Additionally, 422P@HL is not "potential future" but they are well defined and actually used. I will remove "potential" of that. NTT VASA Series —Preceding unsigned comment added by Motonari (talk • contribs) 06:29, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Do the MPEG-2 files keep history if any program changes them?
They say that files of MPEG-2 or latest type keep a record-history of changes being done to them by programs. Is this true? And is it also true that MPEG-1 does not do that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.140.226.32 (talk) 23:18, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

In Mpeg-2 DVD, why 4:3 and 720x480?
This has never made sense to me: Why does the Mpeg-2 standard, in DVD format, allow 4:3, but no resolutions that calculate to 4:3? Have you ever noticed that the aspect ratios allowed can never be achieved using the allowed resolutions? Why is that? There must be a reason. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.169.156.93 (talk) 16:10, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

 * Because the pixels in the 720x480 4:3 format are not "square". Their height is 10% larger than their width (which makes a 704x480 area within the 720x480 exactly 4:3 and leaves the rest for "overscan").  The 720x480 sampling was designed (a long time ago) so that its sampling rate had a nice relationship with the existing analog signals.  It didn't really matter (at that time) that the width and height of each sample on the screen are not the same, because television displays were not built based on that assumption. The newer 16:9 HDTV formats (1280x720 and 1920x1080) were designed differently — using the more digital-centric "square pixel" concept rather than building them for compatibility with old analog television signals. —Cat5nap (talk) 16:31, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I just noticed a reference on the Cyberlink website to "MPEG-2 HD". It would be nice if someone could explain this particular iteration of the MPEG-2 format. Thanks.96.10.22.202 (talk) 17:02, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Different extensions
Hi, It'd be nice to have the different filename extensions of MPEG-2, as there is on the article of MPEG-1. Does someone know them all ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.199.63.221 (talk • contribs) 21:31, 6 December 2008

 * I want to second that! ! !  Someone asked me to try to recover MPEG-2 files which came from a camcorder, I searched the internet but I couldn't find out which extensions I should be looking for. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.158.52 (talk • contribs) 01:40, 15 February 2009

 * Filename extensions are usually .m2v .mpeg .mpg m2a and .vob; though when recovering data; I'd just look at any big file regardless of extensions; because people tend to use different (nonstandard) extensions all the time Nidomedia (talk) 14:42, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Yes, but the big question is about MPEG-2 clips that contain both video and audio. -82.80.57.79 (talk) 06:55, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

HD camera size
How did the hd camera bitrate came to be? any calculation I do results in a different number. Nidomedia (talk) 14:42, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Frame Rate
The frame rate discussion in the video coding section implies that the fields in interlaced video are obtained by taking alternate lines from a (progressive) frame. This is not the case - the fields represent different points in time, and it would be better to say that odd lines are taken from one frame of a 50 (or 59.94) fps video signal and even lines from the next. (A more complicated algorithm incorporating vertical low-pass filtering is actually used in modern video cameras). The only exception to this rule is if a low frame-rate progressive signal (eg 1080p25)is being conveyed using a technology designed for interlaced video at a higher field rate (eg HD-SDI at 1080i50) - a process known as "pre-segmented frame" representation. Elvum (talk) 09:57, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

DVB Picture Sizes
I just thought I'd throw it in that "standard definition" DVB-T in the UK (called Freeview, for which there are currently no high definition channels) is done in 1024x576 interlaced. This is a 16:9 ratio for 576i (PAL). I don't know whether it isn't listed because it's not listed in an MPEG spec somewhere but it's definitely used. 86.16.148.129 (talk) 13:54, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Why did the 422P@Main Level entry go away?
Back in early 2008, someone deleted the 422P entry from the table of profiles. Why? 422P@main level is a perfectly valid MPEG-2 profile. Is there any good reason not to restore it in the table? 74.95.46.250 (talk) 18:02, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I've done a bit of research and apparently the 422P profile was added in 1997, as an amendment to the 1995 first edition MPEG-2 Part 2 spec, and later (probably) included in the 2000 second edition. Unfortunately, the 2000 edition is not freely available, but the 1995 one is, so some editors might mistakenly believe 422P doesn't exist. I don't have access to the 2000 edition, so I can't make the necessary changes, hopefully someone else does. C xong (talk) 04:25, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I've just gotten my hands on the 2000 edition and I've added two new profiles: 4:2:2 and multi-view. HTH C xong (talk) 01:37, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

60i not 30i
The article seems to use a convention different to virtually everywhere else I've seen, halving the number used for interlaced frames. Generally NTSC is considered "60i" (or 59.xxi), and PAL "50i", but for some reason this article uses 30i and 25i respectively.

Before changing it, I'd like to double check: is there some discussion somewhere where Wikipedia settled on this unusual convention? Otherwise I'll change it to the same convention I see in TV specification lists, MPEG encoder descriptions, etc... 66.149.58.8 (talk) 23:00, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Subtitle Patent?
Does the subtitling technology over MPEG-2 count as an essential component? Maybe it should be added to the patent list. Its owned by Philips. See SUBTITLING TRANSMISSION SYSTEM. Patent numbers: Patent Information can be found here: Abstract is Here: "A method of simultaneously transmitting a video signal and encoded data representing graphic images is disclosed. The invention is particularly applicable for transmitting multilingual subtitles with a video program. The graphic images are rectangular regions within the active video area. They are transmitted in the form of bitmaps. The invention not only allows any character font or size to be displayed, but also the definition of e.g. a program provider's logo. The encoded data includes a time stamp to specify the time at which a subtitle is to be displayed. Preferred embodiments of the invention include the transmission of colour-look-up-table (CLUT) data and a compatibility code indicating a required minimum number of entries of said colour-look-up-table. For receivers with a CLUT having more entries than necessary, a map table is transmitted for mapping the pixel data width to the input width of the relevant CLUT. The method is applicable to Direct Video Broadcast systems wherein the video signal is MPEG2 encoded and the graphic images are accommodated in a private data stream of an MPEG2 Transport Stream." Speedplane (talk) 17:56, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * WO9619077
 * US6661467
 * PT745307
 * MX9603393
 * JP2008079325
 * http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&adjacent=true&locale=en_V3&FT=D&date=20000115&CC=AT&NR=188327T&KC=T

Impact of MPEG LA patent portfolio remains unclear in article
It seems that many/most digital still cameras and video camcorders (among them professional models selling for $8000) use only a license for "personal use and non-commercial" purposes (likely mobile phones with cameras as well).

According to this is for instance problematic when showing a clip on a site together with advertisements (as on youtube, vimeo or on a private web site which also uses advertisements).--95.117.227.52 (talk) 14:23, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Seems like a useful addition to the article. Go for it.  Jrincayc (talk) 02:58, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not that much into the topic and there seems to be more than one position about this . Not being familiar with the US legal system (or for that matter the legal system of the country I live in) and not being a native speaker I'm not going to add this to the article. Thanks for the encouragement though:) --95.117.202.214 (talk) 19:19, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

playing DVDs recorded in MPEG-2 on a PC
I have several pieces of software which normally play DVDs on my computer without problems. Recently I bought a DVD that does not play. Windows Media Player says that I have to purchase a plug-in to make the DVD play because it is MPEG-2. Does anyone have more information about this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.89.74.153 (talk) 20:47, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Not a word about Blu-Ray, nor HD-DVD ?
Interesting ;-P KSM-2501ZX, IP address:= 189.120.138.176 (talk) 19:26, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Chronology
I was just reading here that "Silicon Philosophies - formerly Front Porch Video - engineered the world's first MPEG-2 encoder for Toshiba and Warner in 1996". I came to the article, not specifically to check on the accuracy of that, but to get a general idea of the development timeline. No joy. I note the section already has an expansion tag. Some fleshing out would be welcome. Wwwhatsup (talk) 11:57, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Patent pool licenses.
The Patent pool section lists prices of $2-$2.50 and lists the year 2010. According to the official website the prices changed on 1 January 2016.

Quotes:

From January 1, 2016 forward, the royalty rate for MPEG-2 Decoding Products will be $0.50 per unit with right of voluntary termination on 30-days written notice, but Licensees may elect a royalty of $0.35 with right of voluntary termination on or after January 1, 2018 on 30-days written notice.

From January 1, 2016 forward, the royalty rate for MPEG-2 Encoding Products will be $0.50 per unit with right of voluntary termination on 30-days written notice, but Licensees may elect a royalty of $0.35 with right of voluntary termination on or after January 1, 2018 on 30-days written notice.

From January 1, 2016 forward, the royalty rate for Consumer Products will be $0.50 per codec with right of voluntary termination on 30-days written notice, but Licensees may elect a royalty of $0.35 with right of voluntary termination on or after January 1, 2018 on 30-days written notice.

Sjfeenstra (talk) 12:38, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

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Just a reminder about writing for non-experts - acronyms are cryptic
It would be nice if the acronym "MPEG" (Motion Pictures Experts Group) was defined as it is here the first time it appears in any article where it is mentioned. There seems to be only one of the major MPEG-related articles where this currently happens, and then only as a caption above the summary box on the right. Notice that the definition was not used in the second MPEG occurrence or this, the third MPEG occurrence.

This applies to any article using acronyms. They usually flummox the non-expert. Sometimes deliberately by self-flummoxed experts.

Acronyms:

the plural form of acronym; a word that apparently no one on the internet feels is worthy of being defined.

Miguel Bueno:"Brown Thunder, do you use acronyms as a part of speech. "

Brown Thunder: "OMG, Yes! #YOLO"
 * 1) acronym#yolo#lol#rofl#omg#omfg

What is the acronym for BAD?

Bad Ass Divas, Broken As Defined, Bald And Dangerous

Reference sources not formally cited to avoid markup complexity by Wikipedia non-expert:

thefreedictionary..., Urban Dictionary...

title: Talk:MPEG-2


text:
Al-Fatiha

Al-Fatiha (ٱلۡفَاتِحَةِ) is the first chapter of the Quran. It consists of seven verses () which consist of a prayer for guidance and mercy.

Al-Fatiha is recited in Muslim obligatory and voluntary prayers, known as salah. The primary literal meaning of the expression "Al-Fatiha" is "The Opener/The Key".

Summary
Surah Al-Fatiha is narrated in the Hadith to have been divided into two halves between God and his servant (the person reciting), the first three verses being God's half and last three being the servant's. There is disagreement as to whether the Bismillah is the first verse of the surah, or even a verse in the first place.

The chapter begins by praising God with the phrase and stating that it is God who is the lord of the worlds (verse 1/2), that He is the Most Gracious and Most Merciful (verse 2/3), and that He is and will be the true owner of everything and everyone on the Day of Judgement (verse 3/4).

"If you tried to count Allah's blessings, you would never be able to number them. Indeed, humankind is truly unfair, ˹totally˺ ungrateful".

The final three verses, which comprise the servant's half, begin with the servant stating that they worship and seek only God's help (verse 4/5), asking Him to guide them to the Sirat al-Mustaqim (the Straight Path) of those who God has been bountiful to, and not of those who have earned his anger (verses 5-6/6-7).

Most Muslim commentators have interpreted these verses in a more general sense and not referring exclusively to any specific group of people. However, some Muslim commentators believe Jews and Christians are examples of those evoking God's anger and those who went astray, respectively.

Verses and meaning
[bi-smi-llahi-r-raḥmāni-r-raḥīm(i)]

In the name of God, the Most Compassionate, Most Merciful.

[al-ḥamdu li-llāhi rabbi-l-ʿālamīn(a)]

Praise be to God, Lord of the worlds—

[ar-raḥmāni-r-raḥīm(i)]

the Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,

[māliki yawmi-d-dīn(i)]

Owner of the Day of Judgement.

[iyyāka naʿbudu wa-iyyāka nastaʿīn(u)]

You we worship and You we ask for help.

[ihdina-ṣ-ṣirāṭa-l-mustaqīm(a)]

Guide us to the straight path—

[ṣirāṭa-llaḏīna anʿamta ʿalayhim ghayri-l-maḡḍūbi ʿalayhim wa-la-ḍ-ḍāllīn(a)]

the path of those You have favored, not those You are angry with or those who are astray.

Background
The most commonly accepted view about the origins of the surah is the view of [Ibn Abbas], among others, that Al-Fatiha is a Meccan surah, although some believe that it is either a Medinan surah or was revealed in both Mecca and Medina. Most narrators recorded that al-Fātiḥah was the first complete Surah revealed to Muhammad.

The name Al-Fatiha ("the Opener") could refer to the surah being the first in the Mus'hafs, the first to be recited in each rakat of salah, or to the manner of its usage in many Islamic traditions as an opening prayer. The word itself comes from the root, which means "to open, explain, disclose, conquer", etc. Al-Fatiha is also known by several other names, such as Al-Hamd (The Praise), As-Salah (The Prayer), Umm al-Kitab (Mother of the Book), Umm al-Quran (Mother of the Quran), Sab'a min al-Mathani (Seven Repeated Ones, from Quran ), and Ash-Shifa' (The Cure).

Benefits and virtues
Muslims attribute special significance to some surahs for their virtues and benefits (فضائل) described in the hadith. Acceptance of the different hadith varies between Sunni and Shia Muslims, and there is a variety of terms to classify the different levels of confirmed authenticity of a hadith. However, both Sunnis and Shia believe Al-Fatiha to be one of the greatest surahs in the Quran, and a cure for several diseases and poisons, both spiritual and mental.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Al-Fatiha


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Webbers

The Webbers
Another family tree from the same user who brought us The Quartermaines. Indrian 01:11, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * D Possible speedy - blanked by author. Chris 03:35, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Wikipedia is not family tree collection. utcursch 10:23, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete: Exactly as above, the article was blanked and therefore speedy deleted and has now been recreated, minus the VfD tag. Delete for genealogy. Geogre 13:29, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Fictional family from General Hospital. Merge into main article.  RickK 22:21, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Family tree, fancruft. Oy. --Improv 07:28, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Merge into General Hospital — siro  χ  o  08:13, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC)
 * Agree with Siroxo. Radman1 19:53, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I think the article won't really be enriched by having it merged. I mean, I work with these articles all the time, so please, enlighten me as to how they'll help in the vaguest sense. Delete this one and ALL other ones like it. Mike H 22:05, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)
 * Seems to link the characters together in a way readers woudl find informative. — siro  χ  o  14:18, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete: useless pseudoinformation. Wile E. Heresiarch 04:21, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)


text:
Trần Văn Minh (diplomat)

Lieutenant General Sylvain Trần Văn Minh (19 August 1923, in Saigon, French Indochina – 31 May 2009, in Nice, France) was a Vietnamese diplomat and a general of the Army of the Republic of Vietnam.

In 1942, he passed the entry exam for the St Cyr/St Maixent Military Academy organized in Tong, Indochina. From 1943 to 1945, Lieutenant Minh served with the 9th R.I.C. During this period, he participated in operations in Central and North Vietnam, most notably in Cha Pa. After the Japanese coup of 9 March 1945, he accompanied General Alessandri's troops in the retreat to China. In 1946, he was part of the French troops that retook Dien Bien Phu. From there, he eventually made his way to Saigon, travelling on the Mekong River through Luang Prabang and Vientiane. Deployed to the 22nd R.I.C. (1946–47), he was in charge of protecting military convoys between Saigon and Dalat.

Minh was named Directeur des Etudes (Chánh Sở Nghiên Cứu – Director of Intelligence) for the Governor of North Vietnam, Nghiêm Xuân Thiện. 1950 found him in Paris studying at the War Academy (École de Guerre à Paris). Upon his return to Vietnam, he worked at the newly formed State of Vietnam's Ministry of Defense. Two years later, he served on the Chief of Staff. During this time, he worked with General de Lattre de Tassigny in the "Vietnamization" of the Corps Expéditionnaire Français. After participating in Operation Atlante, he was promoted to Commander of the South Sector.

In 1955, Colonel Minh was one of the French delegates at the Geneva Convention. After the accords were signed, he returned home to take command of the first military region in South Vietnam. Late 1955, he was promoted to Général de brigade (Brigadier). A year later, the 33-year-old Minh was promoted to Général de division (Major General). From 1957 to 1959, he served as Commandant of the Dalat military academy. In 1960, President Ngô Đình Diệm named him Inspector General the National Defense, a post he held until 1963.

In 1964–65, he was the Chief of General Staff and in 1965, Minister of Defense. The last position he held was Ambassador of the Republic of Vietnam to Tunis, Tunisia from 1971 until 30 April 1975, when Saigon fell.

title: Trần Văn Minh (diplomat)


text:
Talk:Saint Joseph (disambiguation)

Untitled
Obviously, the first sentence is a lie. In the New Testament, Joseph is not called Saint. Please advice. Rantaro 01:12, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * It's not a lie, it's just phrased in a way that honors the Wikipedia standards (obviously a concept you're not exactly acquainted with) of using "In $field, ..." and similar prefixes. But I've dropped the text, a simple link will do. --Joy [shallot]   09:55, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Saint Joseph of Guadalupe?
According to the page for San Jose, California, the original name of the city was El Pueblo de San José de Guadalupe ("the town of St. Joseph of Guadalupe"). Does anyone know anything about this "San José de Guadalupe"? Is it just another styling for Joseph the husband of Mary, in the way that, e.g., Mary is also known as "the Virgin of Guadalupe" or "Our Lady of Lourdes", etc., etc.)? Or is it another "Saint Joseph" entirely? -- Narsil (talk) 04:32, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Saint Joseph
The name of the article Saint Joseph is under discussion, see talk:Saint Joseph -- 70.51.46.195 (talk) 05:14, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

San Giuseppe
The usage and primary topic for is under discussion, see talk:San Giuseppe (disambiguation) -- 70.51.46.195 (talk) 05:14, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

title: Talk:Saint Joseph (disambiguation)


text: Category:Projectiles

title: Category:Projectiles


text: User talk:24.13.145.196

title: User talk:24.13.145.196


text:
Rudy Ruettiger

Daniel Eugene Ruettiger (born August 23, 1948), is an American motivational speaker and author who played college football for the Notre Dame Fighting Irish. His early life and career at Notre Dame were the inspiration for the 1993 film Rudy.

Early life and family
Daniel Eugene Ruettiger (nicknamed "Rudy") was born on August 23, 1948, in Joliet, Illinois. He was the third of 14 children and grew up with his German American family. Ruettiger did not excel scholastically, at least in part due to dyslexia. He attended Joliet Catholic High School and played for locally famous football coach Gordie Gillespie.

Ruettiger joined the United States Navy after high school, serving as a yeoman on a communications command ship for two years; then he worked in a power plant for two years. Ruettiger applied to Notre Dame and was rejected due to his low high school grades. He enrolled and attended nearby Holy Cross College, and after two years was accepted as a student at Notre Dame on his fourth try, in the fall of 1974. It was during his time studying at Holy Cross that Ruettiger discovered he had dyslexia.

College
Ruettiger harbored a dream to play for the Notre Dame Fighting Irish football team, despite being undersized at 5 ft and 165 lb. Head coach Ara Parseghian encouraged walk-on players from the student body. For example, Notre Dame's 1969 starting center, Mike Oriard, was a walk-on who was eventually nominated for a Rhodes Scholarship and earned an NFL contract with the Kansas City Chiefs.

After tremendous financial help from his father, Ruettiger earned a place on the Notre Dame scout team, a squad that helps the varsity team practice for games. Merv Johnson was the coach who was instrumental in keeping Ruettiger on as a scout-team player.

After the 1974 season, Notre Dame coach Parseghian stepped down and former Green Bay Packers coach Dan Devine was named head coach. In Ruettiger's last opportunity to play for Notre Dame at home, Devine put him into a game as defensive end against Georgia Tech on November 8, 1975. In the movie Rudy, Devine is given a somewhat antagonistic role, not wanting Ruettiger to dress for his last game. In the real life scenario, however, it was Devine who came up with the idea to dress Ruettiger. In the final play of Ruettiger's senior season with the Fighting Irish, he recorded a sack, which is all his Notre Dame stat line has shown. Ruettiger actually played for three plays: a kickoff, an incomplete pass, and on the third play (the game's final play), he sacked Georgia Tech quarterback Rudy Allen. Ruettiger was carried off the field by his teammates following the game, the first player in Notre Dame history to be honored in this way. Only one other player has received this recognition: Marc Edwards in 1995.

Feature film
Ruettiger set up a successful maintenance company and also sold real estate. In 1986, he moved back to South Bend, Indiana, and decided to sell his story to be made into a film. Ruettiger's story was told in the 1993 feature film Rudy, which starred actor Sean Astin in the title role. The film was written by Angelo Pizzo and directed by David Anspaugh, both of whom were involved in Hoosiers. Ruettiger appeared in a cameo as a fan behind his father, played by Ned Beatty, during the final game scenes.

Ruettiger has said that the movie is "92% true." The players did not lay down their jerseys; rather, the team captain and one other player requested that he be allowed to play. Dan Devine is given a somewhat antagonistic role in the film, but Devine was actually one of Ruettiger's biggest motivators to return to the team. The groundskeeper named Fortune is a combination of three different people.

Later life
Ruettiger is a motivational speaker and author.

In 2011, Ruettiger was charged with securities fraud in connection with his role as Chairman of Rudy Beverage, Inc. The government alleged a pump-and-dump scheme. A settlement of the case required Ruettiger to pay $382,866 in fines. In his 2011 book, Rudy: My Story, Ruettiger writes of his dealings with the Securities and Exchange Commission and settlement for alleged securities fraud, stating, "I fell into the same obvious trap the rest of the country had fallen into in all of those boom years" and "I shouldn't have been chasing the money."

In 2017, at the age of 68, Ruettiger was baptized a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Highland, Utah.

Honors, recognition, and awards
On October 14, 2005, Ruettiger appeared at a pep rally before the 2005 USC vs. Notre Dame football game, which Notre Dame ultimately lost in the last few seconds.

The inaugural 2007 College Football Rudy Award was held on January 8, 2008, at the Opryland Hotel in Nashville, Tennessee. The College Football Rudy Award was created by the Rudy Foundation and honors Division I football players who demonstrate what Ruettiger refers to as the "Four Cs": character, courage, contribution, and commitment as a member of their team. A similar award for high school students was created in 2009. Trusted Sports and Ruettiger launched the High School Football "Rudy" Awards, which aim to uncover the "Rudy" on every high school football team in America. Inspired by the College Football Rudy Awards, three finalists were announced on February 3, 2010. The winner, Calob Leindecker of Baton Rouge, Louisiana, received a college scholarship totaling $10,000. Two runners-up, Kyle Weafer of Kansas and Justin Ray Duke of Texas each received $5,000 scholarships.

In July 2009, Ruettiger was initiated into the Kappa Sigma fraternity at the Grand Conclave in San Antonio, Texas.

Ruettiger received honorary doctoral degrees from Holy Cross College, Mercy University, and Long Island University. He has been given key to the city at numerous cities across the nation along with special proclamations for his inspiration, commitment, and human spirit; one such proclamation from the Governor of Nevada announced an Official Rudy Award Day.

Publications

 * Rudy's Insights for Winning in Life ISBN 978-0-9658119-1-0
 * Rudy's Lessons for Young Champions ISBN 978-0-9658119-0-3
 * Rudy & Friends ISBN 978-1-880692-39-4
 * Rudy: My Story ISBN 978-0-718080-06-8

title: Rudy Ruettiger


text:
Talk:Migrant deaths along the Mexico–United States border

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Buffalo15.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 04:06, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Neutrality problems
This article regularly cites clearly biased sources as fact, and it strongly implies that any killing of immigrants along the border by US Agents are unjustified. This article either needs to be completely cleaned up or deleted entirely as I'm not sure what the value of it is in its current state. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8800:A405:7600:A419:C283:87FB:75C5 (talk) 17:06, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Please suggest additions which will make it, in your opinion, more balanced. Please also highlight areas of the article which imply killings of immigrants along the border are unjustified as I do not see this. For now I will remove the notice on neutrality unless better substantiation can be given for its addition. --Waddie96 (talk) 18:45, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅ I updated the article's body text to be more balanced. --Waddie96 (talk) 19:26, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Enhancing the article with more facts
I think this article has serious problems. There is no proof given that there are *any* immigrant killings on the US/Mexico border. I am aware of one case which occured some distance from the border, which I'll look up and include. Otherwise, it seems like a hypothetical discussion. Border crossing deaths due to heat exhaustion and other natural causes are a much bigger, and well documented, problem. I'd suggest renaming the article to "Immigrant deaths along the United States Border" so as to broaden the topic. (only one article links here: Illegal immigrants). Finally, I don't see how the Mountain Meadows Massacre is relevant. While it is a fascinating incident, it has virtually nothing to do with immigration or the border. Will McW 01:15, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC) "Antonio The Taino Warrior Martin"
 * Mountain Meadows Massacre victims were considered to be immigrants by those that killed them. It's just an introductory item to what's happening now along the border, specially in Arizona.
 * I'll grant you that the massacre victims were called immigrants or emigrants, and that at least the incident is well documented. My other concerns still stand. Let's find some documented cases of immigrant deaths and enhance this article with more facts.

Flag Vigilante killings as POV
I am going to flag the section Vigilante killings as POV. Much of the material is taken from the leftist UK newspaper The Independent, whose correspondent, writing from Mexico City produces strongly POV "news reports" that trumpet some unlikely events. Direct quotes:
 * ...the shootings of migrants by vigilante "posses" - believed to include members of the Ku Klux Klan - in the Wild West country along its border...
 * Some ranchers have declared publicly that they are "hunting" the Mexicans "for sport".
 * Irate local ranchers, led by the Barnett Boys of Sierra Vista, insist on searching suspicious vans and pickups on the public highway, despite having no authority to do so.
 * Overzealous gringos with itchy trigger fingers are a new hazard in the sagebrush.
 * Flyers circulating in Cochise County, blatantly advertise for tourists to join in the hunt.
 * ...where vigilante "justice" claims more lives each week.

This is yellow journalism written for the self-satisfaction of the sneering anti-American left in the UK and has little connection to reality.

If there is no better sourcing for this section, I will delete it altogether in a few months. Kevinp2 20:40, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

 * I have updated the section and deleted the POV tag accordingly.Terjen 08:09, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Much better, thanks! Kevinp2 17:55, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

This article doesn't deserve to be on Wikipedia
Awful, paranoid, leftist drivel that presents maybe one or two facts.

Tars the ranchers of Arizona while giving no impression of the assault under which people all along the border are being subjected to.

POV. Should be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.19.59.105 (talk • contribs) 13:27, 18 November 2005

 * So why not add something on the conflict with ranchers to balance it? --BrownHairedGirl 12:46, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Recent Killings
This section is terrible. It obviously insinuates that the killings along the border are committed by Americans. If there are any killings being committed by Americans, some evidence and documentation should be provided. Hell, nothing here is documented. The only killings I can find evidence for are all on the Mexican side of the border, and are undoubtedly committed by Mexican criminal interests.

I should point out this article doesn't even mention the American citizens whose deaths were [b]caused[/b] by illegal immigrants and smugglers along the border. I can't find the news articles, a few Americans were killed in collisions such as discribed |here and |here. I believe that would be a valid inclusion, but may require this article change it's name to "Deaths along the U.S.-Mexican Border."

I'll also take issue with the snide Minuteman jab at the end, labelling some farmers as self-proclaimed vigilantes. There are many groups along the border that patrol and are armed, however they have never committed any violence, and their weaponry is to protect them from drug smugglers, coyotes, and the |Mexican Military. If there is any evidence to the contrary, provide it, or else this whole section should be rewritten or deleted.

Could you please include some statistics on how much people were killed by the "Minutemen"? It was a very good article. Thanks for defending Mexico. Congratulations!!! Viva Mexico!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No one has been killed by the Minutemen. Thanks for protecting America. USA 1!!!!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.47.125.243 (talk) 20:48, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

This article should be deleted, really
This article is biased, manipulative and completely useless as an encyclopedia article. Its creators obviously wrote as a primitive political statement. Based on facts or not, you can't write an objective article with such agenda. It doesn't deserve a second chance. Unworthy.

 * So then why don't you sign your comments and recommend the article for deletion? --MPD01605 03:35, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Before people get up in arms, deleting stuff, shouting POV, or "leftist dribble", this is a very USEFUL article, and factually correct. It has no 'agenda' (other than to inform one of what is verifiable) and unless you can prove otherwise, it needs to stay. Dark jedi requiem 16:37, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Article cleanup
I wikified a lot, removed irrelevent things (examples: farmers told not to shot immigrants (as farmers were never said to have shot immigrants) and a massacre that happened 150 years ago in utah that bares no relation to the mexico/american border deaths.) I also added references.Dark jedi requiem 18:48, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Clean up and neutrality
After I cleaned up the article, is there anything that seems slanted, biased or anyway unobjective? If not, I see no reason for the clean up and pov signs to remain. Dark jedi requiem 00:29, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

This is a clean article
Let me add my voice to Dark Jedi's: this is a passably neutral article, and the signs should come down. There's no reason to give any particular credence to assertions that the article is biased, useless, or politically motivated. It would be a disgrace for it to be deleted. Besides, if out-of-state volunteer Minutemen are going to go running around in the Arizona border country, the article may save their lives.

It's a matter of simple fact that immigrants die crossing the border. This is nothing new. It wasn't new in my grandparents' day, either. The U.S.-Mexico border runs through some very rough desert and semi-desert country, and for half the year or more, the daytime temperatures can reach life-threatening highs. Anybody plonking around on foot in the Sonoran desert or the Baboquivaris is taking risks.

When immigrant deaths are the result of human action, most often the humans responsible are coyotes: people who make a business of smuggling immigrants across the border. Sometimes it's the result of outright violence -- coyotes are a nasty lot -- but more often it's manslaughter via gross negligence, as when they abandon illegals in impassable and waterless terrain, or leave them locked in the unventilated cargo compartment of a truck throughout the heat of the day.

Obviously, there's a considerable amount of controversy attached to this and related issues. The one thing you can't say is that immigrant deaths don't happen.

Needs balanced contributions.
Readers should contibute any information that is applicable to the debate, as long as it has a valid source and can be cited. This is a hot issue at present and deserves attention. Do not delete entire article.

This article is improving.
Not long ago, I tried fixing it up a bit, but I have little Wiki experience and didn't get very far.

It's definitely looking much better now than it did before.

Good job!!

Citing sources
as per Citing sources "Say where you got it

It is improper to copy a citation from an intermediate source without making clear that you saw only that intermediate source. For example, you might find some information on a web page which says it comes from a certain book. Unless you look at the book yourself to check that the information is there, your reference is really the web page, which is what you must cite. The credibility of your article rests on the credibility of the web page, as well as the book, and your article must make that clear." In other words, the fact that you got content from a website sponsored by a group identified as a hate group (Nation of Atzlan) needs to be identified. -Psychohistorian 20:15, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I changed the link to point to the original article from La Prensa, San Diego. --Ramsey2006 21:35, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Citing sources is covered by identifying Rodolfo Acuña as the intermediate source rather than bypassing him and source the claim about the fourteen deaths directly to Mexico's Ministry of Foreign Affair. I don't think the quoted policy is intended as an excuse to introduce a particular POV bias. Terjen 23:20, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

 * At this point, for that particular case, the issue is resolved as Ramsey2006 found another source for the article. However, Terjen, the policy is quite clear. It says "Say where you got it". If Ramsey had not been able to find another source, we would have had to say where we got the source - from a hate group website. The spirit of the policy is to identify the source so that the reliability of the source can be identified. If I give you a letter which I say comes from source A and source A says it comes from source B, you might argue that source B was the original source, but you really have no idea if the letter was altered by source A or myself (intentionally or not). Likewise, you might argue that source A was an intermediary source, but you have no idea if I altered the letter. You might say that I was the intermediary source, but you have no idea if source A altered the letter. Consequently, every person who had a chance to alter the letter's contents (again, intentionally or not) needs to be identified - its called 'traceability' and is an extremely well known principle of research.

Now, having said that, you, Ramsey, Will Breback and others who enjoy distorting and obscuring facts in order to prop up your politics will be happy to know that I am leaving Wikipedia. Will, you can go ahead and obscure the fact that the SPLC may not be a reliable source with regards to who is and who is not a 'hate group' - you don't care about objectivity, so my absence will make it easier for you.-Psychohistorian 12:38, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Please do no make personal attacks on other editors. -Will Beback · † ·

Recent numbers
Does any one have a more recent number for the total death for 2007? Rdrgz25 (talk) 04:54, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Migrant doesn't equal immigrant
A lot of the content in this article isn't relevant. Perhaps this article should be renamed. It also makes heavy reference to deaths on the border without sources that the people who died are immigrants and not drug runners, migrants, or something else. This article should be renamed "Deaths on the U.S - Mexican border"-198.97.67.59 (talk) 19:40, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

 * Surely if a significant number of the thousands who die are drug runners, that would appear in the articles and the graphs? I would not assume the worst of those people that choose the most dangerous routes, with insufficient food and transportation equipment.

 * As for "migrant" vs. "immigrant", I will propose a move to "Migrant deaths along the United States–Mexico border" to hear arguments and gather consensus. MantisEars (talk) 20:12, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

 * Before I start, allow me to clarify that, while there are others who use these IPs, in this case, I am the IP anon who removed the irrelevant content.

I trust you recognize and will acknowledge that you are making an assumption when you say "Surely.."? I mean, the point I'm making here is that we don't know who were drug runners and who weren't. Its not about assuming the worse of anyone. It is about recognizing what we do and do not know and heeding the Wikipedia policy on verifiability. Please acknowledge as well that many of the sources I removed in this article gave no indication that the people being discussed had insufficient food or that their transportation choices were the result of being unable to afford better (or even whether Mexican drug mules can afford better).-75.179.153.110 (talk) 02:44, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Requested move
No Consensus has been reached. Furthermore, the article itself includes a combination of terms. Might I recommend discussing a bit further? And/or coming up with a term that is inclusive without being overly so? -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 18:27, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Immigrant deaths along the U.S.-Mexico border → Migrant deaths along the United States–Mexico border—"Migrant" is not the same as "immigrant"; some of the deaths mentioned in the article may have been from migrants.—MantisEars (talk) 20:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

 * Support. Seems logical. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:54, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose on the grounds that the problem is much bigger than that. Not all sources in this article discuss migrants, but rather simply deaths on the border - often unidentified deaths on the border. If we remove all sources which do not explicitly reference migrants, then I'll support the renaming. If not, then all you're doing is a paint job on a big pile of stink.-75.179.153.110 (talk) 02:44, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The rationale for this move is illogical on its face. "Some of the deaths may have been from migrants". Exactly, some may have been and others may not, so title is inclusive, and target title would exclude any deaths of non-migrants.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 04:14, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Support. Covers individuals dying while migrating across the border without us making assumptions on whether they intended to settle in the country. The qualifier is needed as Deaths along the U.S.-Mexico border is too inclusive. See also the note in the discussion section below about the frequent use of migrant in the Government Accounting Office report about border crossing deaths . Terjen (talk) 18:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Support for reasons enumerated by Terjen. This is the term that I have seen most often in discussions of this issue, and would avoid quibbling over the definition of "immigrants", as well as including deaths that may occure on either side of the border. --Ramsey2006 (talk) 18:16, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment. I think we may have a terminology issue here and the opposes and supports as not so much in disagreement but talking past each other. Migrant means to me specifically, and at least where I come from, that is the dominant meaning. I see on various dictionaries this listed as a primary definition but on others, a generic definition is listing as primary: "moving from one region, place, or country to another". My oppose comes out of interpreting the title through the lens provided by the former definition, which results in the title being quite exclusive, while the generic meaning makes it more inclusive. Not sure where that leaves us.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 04:39, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That may be a localism. In British English, migrant is always accepted as having the more inclusive meaning. Regards, Asterion talk 09:18, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:

 * The 2006 Government Accounting Office report on Border-Crossing Deaths uses the term migrant more than 100 times, as in migrant border-crossing deaths, migrants attempt to cross the border, and number of migrants attempting to cross the border. Terjen (talk) 11:01, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Renaming
We achieved No Consensus in the recent survey to rename the article to Migrant deaths along the United States–Mexico border. SatyrTN suggest that we should be coming up with a term that is inclusive without being overly so. Yet I note that those opposing seem to favor the much more inclusive Deaths along the United States–Mexico border. Nobody argued in favor of not changing the title. I thus suggest that we change the title to use the more inclusive term migrant instead of immigrant, and then discuss whether we need to change the title to make it even more inclusive. Terjen (talk) 03:24, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * As I highlighted in the survey, migrant has a meaning is some places of an itinerant farm laborer who harvests crops seasonally, which definition is listed in many dictionaries (see, e.g., Merriam-Webster definition). While most give the generic definition as the primary, when interpreted in the former manner, migrant is more exclusive than immigrant. I think "deaths along the..." works better than either. --Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 12:14, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Were any of the deceased not illegal immigrations? Why not call it "Illegal immigration deaths along the U.S.-Mexico border"? Schrandit (talk) 17:00, 12 August 2008
 * The reason for the proposed change to use the more inclusive migrant instead of immigrant in the title was spurred by that the anonymous multiple ip editor sometimes known as 75.179.153.110 and 198.97.67.59 purged the article for content that referred to migrants rather than immigrants as in the title. Illegal immigrant is even more excluding, being a subset of immigrants. The alternative is to not use any qualifier, but I would argue that an article on deaths along the United States–Mexico border is way too inclusive. Terjen (talk) 18:32, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Clearly, not all those crossing are "migrants," as usually defined, because many if not most wind up working in single locations. A review of the article reveals no cases of deaths of those crossing legally, so the most accurate description of the article is "Illegal immigration deaths along the U.S.-Mexico border," and so that's what it should be called. Plazak (talk) 19:12, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * In the scope of description including the term 'Illegal immigrant' defiantly is more excluding, but the fundamental question should be "is it true?". Have any of the dead not been Illegal Immigrants? Schrandit (talk) 19:39, 12 August 2008
 * The anonymous multiple ip editor sometimes known as 75.179.153.110 and 198.97.67.59 spurring the change states in an earlier section that the article makes heavy reference to deaths on the border without sources that the people who died are immigrants. The press seems to often prefer to use other labels, perhaps because it is not strictly correct to label them immigrants.Terjen (talk) 21:09, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * How about "Illegal border crossing deaths along the U.S.-Mexico border"? Clearly, those crossing legally are not in danger. Plazak (talk) 21:20, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

 * We have substantial reliable sources using the term migrant as label for those dying along the border. See: United States Government Accounting Office, GAO-06-770, August 2006; Eschbach, K., J. Hagan and N. Rodriguez (2001): Causes and Trends in Migrant Deaths Along the U.S.-Mexico Border 1985-1998. Center for Immigration Research, University of Houston. Terjen (talk) 00:26, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

 * The meanings of Migrant may include itinerant farm laborer who harvests crops seasonally, but that doesn't exclude other meanings of the term, such as the one used by the sources referenced in our entry. Migrant is not more exclusive than immigrant. All immigrants have been migrants; some migrants might be immigrants. Terjen (talk) 19:11, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not more exclusive, just less accurate for this article. Plazak (talk) 19:32, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Migrant refers to anyone moving from point A to point B. Drug mules are migrants. Itinerant workers are migrants. Immigrants are migrants. Drug mules are not the same as immigrants which are not the same as itinerant workers. I challenge any of you to provide verifiable evidence (as per Wikipedia policy) that the sources in this article which refer to migrants mean, in every case, immigrant and not drug mule. Becuase you can't provide such evidence, these sources shouldn't be used in an article about immigrant deaths.-198.97.67.59 (talk) 19:54, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Most of our cited sources indeed refer to migrants rather than immigrant when covering those dying while migrating between the U.S. and Mexico. As not all migrants are immigrants, using these sources conflicts with the current title of the entry, Immigrant deaths along the U.S.-Mexico border. Rather than purging the article for content that uses the term migrant rather than immigrant, I suggest we change the title to better reflect the terminology of these sources. Terjen (talk) 20:47, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

From the discussions in this section and the ones preceding, there seems to be high degree of consensus about at least one thing: we agree on changing the title of the article to something else than Immigrant deaths along the U.S.-Mexico border. I recognize that there has been several suggestions. Migrant deaths along the U.S.-Mexico border seems to have the most support, and although it may not be the preferred term for everybody, maybe we can all agree that it is an improvement over the current title. It also resolves the issue of most of our cited sources uses migrant rather than immigrant to refer to those migrating between the U.S. and Mexico. As an evolutionary step in the right direction, I suggest that we for now change the title to Migrant deaths along the U.S.-Mexico border. Terjen (talk) 20:55, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Why settle for a semblance of truth when we can have truth? Immigrant and Migrant are both inaccurate - why not use Illegal Immigrant? It is factually correct when the other terms are not. - Schrandit (talk) 21:26, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * No, we cannot know that when our cited sources refers to migrants they are really talking about illegal immigrants. A few comments back the anonymous IP editor challenges those in doubt "to provide verifiable evidence (as per Wikipedia policy) that the sources in this article which refer to migrants mean, in every case, immigrant". If you still disagree, I suggest you take the challenge. Terjen (talk) 21:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Can we agree that they are all attempted "border crossers"? That would resolve the migrant/immigrant issue. Plazak (talk) 22:06, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * U.S.-Mexico border crossing deaths? Deaths of U.S.-Mexico border crossers? Border crosser death along the the U.S.-Mexico border? Deaths resulting from crossing the U.S.-Mexico border? Deaths resulting from U.S.-Mexico border crossing?--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:12, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Do any of these sources refer to legal migrants? I think Deaths of illegal migrants along the U.S. -Mexico border would narrow down the article's topic nicely.-66.213.90.2 (talk) 23:21, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The legal status of the migrant is not always explicitly clear from our sources. We also cover migrants dying on the mexican side of the border. Terjen (talk) 23:38, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Consensus about moving
No matter your favorite alternative name, do we have consensus that it would be an improvement to move Immigrant deaths along the U.S.-Mexico border → Migrant deaths along the United States–Mexico border? As most of our cited sources refer to migrants rather than immigrants, it will allow us to keep the content rather than have it purged. Terjen (talk) 00:52, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  ''. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.''
 * Neutral - both names seem to be equally accurate/inaccurate, do what you will. - Schrandit (talk) 02:27, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Support Our job is to verifiably summarize reliable sources using the neutral point of view. If sources refer to "migrants" then that is what we should refer to. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:57, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Support. Most sources that I have seen on this topic have used the term "Migrant". Furthermore, the current use of the term "Immigrant" is currently being used by Anonymous IP Editors as an excuse to vandalize the article by blanking out large amounts of sourced material.--Ramsey2006 (talk) 23:24, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Support Migrants as I said in the above thread now blow. Thanks, SqueakBox 21:14, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Support Per arguments in the two sections above. Terjen (talk) 23:07, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Done. Terjen (talk) 21:52, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Comment

 * Why not Migrant deaths along the Mexico - United States border> More NPOV as the migrants are crossing from Mexico to the US. Thanks, SqueakBox 23:49, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Let's focus on whether the specific proposal is an improvement, and consider other alternatives afterwards. Terjen (talk) 00:03, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I am quite happy with Migrants rather than immigrants and indeed support that, but I would rather just see the name changed once. Thanks, SqueakBox 17:26, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That change, which alphabetizes the two countries, has been proposed before and I think it's overdue. Since it's a minor change I don't think it requires discussion and could be made anytime. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:33, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I would support either version, with a preference for the alphebetized version. I agree that the switch to the alphebetized version could be done either now or at a later time, since it is unlikely to be controversial.--Ramsey2006 (talk) 17:48, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:38, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

fack wiki soll auf GER geben — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.141.206.196 (talk) 07:30, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Proposal
I propose that the article be moved to "Illegal migrant deaths along the Mexico - United States border" in order to be more specific in regards to the legal status of such people.

If there is no response(s) by 20 April, I will proceed.Zukabovich (talk) 06:09, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
 * My objection would be grammatical, I think something like "Deaths of illegal immigrants along the Mexico - United States border" would sound better. - Schrandit (talk) 13:43, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Has the proponent reviewd the discussion above? The article was specifically moved from "immigrant" because most sources refer to the people as "migrants". The same goes for "illegal" - we should go with what most of the sources use.   Will Beback    talk    18:34, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It's pretty much implied that those who died are ILLEGAL migrants. Legal migrants don't cross borders illegally when they already have the proper documentation. I like Schrandit's proposal if it's more appropriate. Zukabovich (talk) 19:16, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Lot's of things in this world are implied. But we should stick with what's explicit. See WP:V.   Will Beback    talk    19:24, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree that we should stick to what's explicit and one thing that's explicit is that these are deaths along the border. We don't know if they are migrants, immigrants, drug runners or something else.

This article should be re titled "Deaths along the Mexican - United States border" so as to make clear that it includes more than just migrants. -69.143.48.114 (talk) 00:59, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree with the sentiment of the anon IP ending in .114. Some deaths here appear to be neither migrants nor immigrants, as no intent to relocate or cross the border is ever stated.-- Oni Ookami Alfador Talk 17:59, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Proposal
I propose that this article be merged into the article Mexico–United States barrier. A full 3 paragraphs of the "Mexico–United States barrier" article discusses migrant deaths, and includes information not found in this article. Thanks, Richard Apple (talk) 22:19, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Laughably out-of-date lead paragraph
The second sentence of the article reads:
 * "The number of deaths has steadily increased since the mid-1990s with exposure (including heat stroke, dehydration, and hyperthermia) being the leading cause."

This is very impressive, until you view the cited source, see that it covers only the years 1985-1998, and you realize that this statistic is 15 years out-of-date. Certainly, there must be some contemporary statistic, real or imagined, that is more up-to-date than this one! Plazak (talk) 02:57, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

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hypothermia &/or suffocation
The section on hypothermia is very short and lacks specifics. It also does not give indication of the deaths of people in trucks or other vehicles, such as in the recent deaths of over fifty! people in a refrigerator truck with non-working refrigeration (https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/29/us/san-antonio-migrant-truck-deaths/index.html). How-ever, many of these kinds of deaths take place (or are reported from) locations a distance from the border (in the recent case, it was some 150 north of it). So maybe a separate article, linked to from this one, is needed. Kdammers (talk) 18:14, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: LIBR 1 Working with Sources
— Assignment last updated by Kdavis25 (talk) 22:50, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Adding Immigrants Quantitative Sources for Latino Immigration History
— Assignment last updated by Katherine.Holt (talk) 15:04, 3 March 2023 (UTC)


text:
False Creek

False Creek (Faux ruisseau) is a short narrow inlet in the heart of Vancouver, separating the Downtown and West End neighbourhoods from the rest of the city. It is one of the four main bodies of water bordering Vancouver, along with English Bay (of which it is an inland extension), Burrard Inlet, and the Fraser River. Granville Island is located within the inlet.

George Henry Richards named False Creek during his hydrographic survey of 1856-1863. While travelling along the south side of the Burrard Inlet, Richards thought he was traversing a creek; upon discovering his error, he gave the inlet its current name.

The inlet opens into the English Bay to its northwest, and is surrounded by the Downtown and West End neighbourhoods in the north, Strathcona in the east, and Mount Pleasant, Fairview and Kitsilano in the south. Science World is located at its easternmost end, along with BC Place Stadium and the Georgia Viaduct. Proceeding east to west, it is crossed by the Cambie, Granville, and Burrard bridges. The Canada Line rapid transit tunnel crosses underneath False Creek just west of the Cambie Bridge. In 1986, it was the location of the Expo 86 World's Fair.

False Creek South is a neighbourhood that runs along south shore roughly between the Granville and Cambie bridges. Further east, Southeast False Creek (Olympic Village) runs roughly from Cambie Street to Main Street.

Pre-colonial
Human settlement in the Lower Fraser region began between 8000 and 10 000 years ago, following the retreat of the Sumas Glacier at the end of the last ice age. The settlement by peoples now known as the Coast Salish predates the arrival of salmon in the river 4500–5000 years ago, an occurrence that took place symbiotically with the emergence of Douglas fir, western hemlock, and western red cedar ecosystems between 4000 and 5000 years before the present day. According to Squamish-Sto:lo author and historian Lee Maracle, Vancouver was inhabited by "Downriver Halkomelem" speaking peoples, the Tsleil-Waututh.

First contact between Europeans and the indigenous peoples of present-day Vancouver occurred in June 1792. By 1812, Halkomelem peoples had survived three large epidemics from foreign illnesses such as smallpox, introduced through trading routes, including a 1782 outbreak that killed two-thirds of the population. It has been estimated that shortly before the time of first contact and these epidemics, the indigenous population of the Lower Fraser was over 100,000.

Early colonial period
An 1830 Hudson's Bay Company census documented 8954 indigenous inhabitants in the region, although the census probably omitted some settlements. As a result of epidemics, the population of the Tsleil-Waututh was reduced to 41 individuals by 1812, who invited the neighbouring Squamish to reside in Burrard Inlet.

Shortly after that, a group of Tsleil-Waututh led by Khatsalahnough, a leader from Lil'wat (near present-day Pemberton), occupied present-day False Creek. At this time, there were large sandbars at its entrance. False Creek, which lies in Musqueam territory, was a shared waterway; in addition to the Tsleil-Waututh, the Squamish inhabited False Creek as well, occupying it year-round.

Before European settlement, False Creek extended as far east as what is now Clark Drive. With land reclamation extending into Burrard Inlet and False Creek for port and industrial uses, the landscape began to change dramatically. Once a vital source for Tsleil-Waututh, Musqueam, and Squamish food supplies such as sea asparagus, berries, camas, oysters, clams, wild cabbage, and mushrooms,  False Creek became polluted with sewage and toxic effluent from sawmills and other industries. As a result, one nickname for False Creek was "Shit Creek".

From 1894 to 1905 Alfred Wallace built ships on the north shore of False Creek next to Granville Street Bridge.

In 1913, the Squamish residents of the Kitsilano Reserve, on the False Creek sandbar, were forced to relocate. According to Maracle, the settlement was burned down following the forced evacuation. In 1916, the sandbar on which this settlement was located was built into Granville Island to create new industrial land. In 1917, the eastern basin of False Creek was infilled to create land for the Canadian Northern Railway's Pacific Central Station. Talk of draining and filling the inlet to Granville Street continued into the 1950s, but that never occurred.

Industrial period
The False Creek area was the industrial heartland of Vancouver through to the 1950s, and was home to many sawmills and small port operations. As industry shifted to other areas, the vicinity around False Creek started to deteriorate. In 1960, BC Forest Products plant and lumber storage facility on the south side of False Creek caught fire in Vancouver's first-ever five-alarm blaze. Every piece of firefighting equipment and all of Vancouver's firefighters fought the blaze for hours, but the facility was totally destroyed.

Walter Hardwick, a geography professor at UBC, first elected to City Council in 1968, led the City's redevelopment team and helped secure the participation of the Federal Government, which owned Granville Island. A major public involvement and co-design process followed which established public priorities for an accessible waterfront seawall; mixed-tenure housing including market condominiums, co-op and low-income housing and live-aboard marinas; and a vibrant waterfront market. These plans were formalized in a 1972 Official Development Plan. The form and mix of development were revolutionary for Vancouver at the time. A third of the site was set aside for 40 units/acre housing with the balance converted to park, waterfront and community uses.

Expo 86 and after
The North Shore of False Creek (NFC) was further transformed in the 1980s, as it took centre stage during Expo 86. Following Expo, the Province sold the NFC site to Hong Kong tycoon Li Ka-shing whose company Concord Pacific successfully marketed Vancouver in Asia, as a place for investment and migration. With the province enabling strata titles, a high-rise condominium boom soon followed, with Downtown Vancouver's population soaring from around 6,000 throughout the 1970s and 1980s to over 43,000 in 2006.

The 1991 Official Development Plan enabled significant new density commensurate with the provision of significant public amenities including street front shops and services, parks, school sites, community centres, daycares, co-op and low-income housing. Since then, most of the north shore has become a new neighbourhood of dense housing (about 100 units/acre), adding some 50 000 new residents to Vancouver's downtown peninsula.

On December 1, 1998, Vancouver City Council adopted a set of Blue ways policies and guidelines stating the vision of a waterfront city where land and water combine to meet the environmental, cultural and economic needs of the City and its people in a sustainable, equitable, high quality manner.

Southeast False Creek (SEFC) is the neighbourhood designated by Cambie, Main, West 2nd Avenue, and False Creek. The 2010 Olympic Village, for athlete housing and logistics of the Winter Olympics, is found in Southeast False Creek. As of 2021, the population exceeded 3,000.

Sports and recreation
False Creek is a very popular boating area for many different activities including rowing, dragon boating, canoeing, kayaking, public ferries, charter ships, and visiting pleasure boats. It has 10 marinas with berths for 1500 watercraft and several paddling clubs or boat rental facilities. Since 1986, the creek has been the venue for the Canadian International Dragon Boat Festival and other paddling events.

Transportation
Aquabus and False Creek Ferries are two ferry companies that operate scheduled services daily to and from multiple points along False Creek. In addition to three bridges and multiple bus routes, False Creek can also be crossed via the Canada Line in a tunnel between Olympic Village station on the South shore and Yaletown-Roundhouse station to the North.

Environmental issues
There are regular reports of pollution problems in False Creek, and there are occasional warnings that the water is not safe for swimming, particular at the eastern end which is least affected by tidal inflow and outflow.

Because of connections between Vancouver's storm-sewer and sanitary-sewer systems, heavy rains may cause raw sewage to discharge directly into False Creek.

Impact on wildlife
Several decades following the suspension of industrial activity in the area, a number of shore and seabirds such as cormorants, ducks, herons, kingfishers, owls, geese, crows, and gulls have returned, as well as harbour seals. In an unusual sighting, in May 2010 a grey whale entered False Creek and traversed its length before returning to the open waters of the Strait of Georgia.

Factors working against the further return of wildlife include residual industrial contaminants, spillage from the sewer overflow system into the creek, and the seawall that constrains much of the shoreline with little habitat value. The city has attempted to recreate the natural shoreline in some areas and is working to phase out the antiquated sewer overflow system.

False Creek South
The south shore of False Creek has had quite a diverse history of land uses since its founding. South False Creek went from being an industrial park, in the late 1800s and mid-1900s, to being the populous residential area that it is today. The development of this area, beginning anew in the 1970s, occurred at a critical time in Vancouver's history when citizens were organising support for a new picture of the city, one that broke away from the standardized utilitarian cities that were so popular in North America and, instead, pushed for a more liveable and diverse built environment.

The result is a medium-density area with a variety of architectural designs, ownership opportunities, recreational activities, and modes of transportation, which allows for easier mobility within the community and a more picturesque landscape.

False Creek south is home to False Creek Elementary School.

False Creek consists of 70% social housing and 30% leasehold apartments and condos.

 * 30% low income below market (subsidised) rent. Including Metro Vancouver Housing, Portland Hotel Society, other organisation and societies.
 * 30% co-op housing rent geared to income but still quite subsidised (below market)
 * 10% housing for people with special needs (below market rents)
 * 30% standard market rent apartments and leasehold condos.l

All of False Creek South is on Leasehold land which is owned by the City of Vancouver.

Southeast False Creek (Olympic Village) consists mostly of market-rate apartments and modern condos with a few co-ops and social housing.

North False Creek
The north shore of False Creek, on the downtown peninsula, has undergone multiple stages of development since its purchase by the province from the Canadian Pacific Railway in the early 1980s. Before the BC Cabinet bought the land of North False Creek to begin development for Expo '86, the land was used for industrial purposes. Provincial leaders developed a plan to build a sports stadium (BC Place), commercial outlets, and high-density residences on the newly cleared land.

False Creek North is home to Crosstown Elementary School as well as Elsie Roy Elementary School.

Parks

 * Charleson Park
 * Hinge Park

title: False Creek


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title: User talk:66.194.214.194


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User:Hydriotaphia

I believe it was Walter Pater who remarked that all Wikipedians constantly aspire towards the condition of invisibility.

title: User:Hydriotaphia