text:
Fieldston, Bronx

Fieldston is a privately owned affluent neighborhood in the Riverdale section of the northwestern part of the New York City borough of the Bronx. It is bounded by Manhattan College Parkway to the south, Henry Hudson Parkway to the west, 250th Street to the north, and Broadway to the east. It is noted for its rural atmosphere, large houses and abundance of trees. The majority of the neighborhood is included in the Fieldston Historic District, designated by the New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission in 2006.

One of New York City’s most upscale neighborhoods, Fieldston is home to two of the three prestigious "Hill Schools", the Horace Mann School and the Ethical Culture Fieldston School; the third, Riverdale Country School, lies just outside Fieldston to the north. Manhattan College is located on Manhattan College Parkway, the neighborhood's southern boundary.

History
The land that is now Fieldston was part of the estate of Major Joseph Delafield, who purchased 250 acre in 1829, and named it after his family's estate in Ireland. The Delafield family laid out lots in 1909 – the year after the New York City Subway's Broadway–Seventh Avenue line was extended to Van Cortlandt Park, intending to develop the land, which at first was called "Delafield Woods". Rather than use a grid plan, civil engineer Albert E. Wheeler, following the suggestions made by Frederick Law Olmsted and James R. Croes in 1876, designed a street plan which followed the contours of the land and preserved as much of the wooded areas as possible. The first house was begun in 1910 and finished in 1911. In 1923, after the completion of 80 houses, the Fieldston Property Owner's Association was formed.

Buyers were provided with a list of approved architects, and historicist architectural styles – the various "revival" styles – were strongly encouraged. The Tudor revival style was popular in houses built in the 1920s; many of them were designed by local resident Dwight James Baum, who was responsible for 62 houses, while Julius Gregory is credited with forty-two. Many of the houses in the neighborhood were featured in design and architectural magazines, and the neighborhood had a reputation for having houses of quality design. In order to accommodate the project's plan to be a neighborhood of single-family dwellings, the New York City Planning Commission approved a special zoning district in 1938, which would not allow the construction of any multiple-family buildings.

By the beginning of the 21st century, Fieldston was one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in New York City. Fieldston is one of a few neighborhoods in New York City that is completely privately owned. The streets and common areas are owned by the Fieldston Property Owners' Association, Inc. which plows the streets, does sewer repair, cares for the trees – of which there are about 1000 – and runs a security patrol as well as other usually municipal functions, such as street repair. Annual dues are paid by the approximately 250 homeowners who make up the Association to maintain the area. Once a year, the streets are closed to non-residents to legally qualify the streets as privately owned; parking is restricted to residents and their guests.

Historic district

On January 10, 2006, the New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission designated the majority of the Fieldston neighborhood as an historic district. The district contains 252 houses and related structures. Some of the more noted houses, with the year of completion, the architect's name and the architectural style in parentheses:
 * 274 College Road (1926–28, Julius Gregory, Medieval Revival)
 * Gregory designed 42 houses in the neighborhood
 * 4521 Delafield Road (1925, Dwight James Baum, Colonial Revival)
 * received a gold medal from the Architectural League of New York as the best two-story house built between 1926 and 1930 in the U.S.
 * Baum designed 62 houses in the neighborhood
 * 4530 Fieldston Road (1928–29, Gregory, Medieval Revival
 * 4599 Fieldston Road at West 246th Street (1928–29, Baum, Mediterranean Revival
 * 4600 Fieldston Road at West 246th Street (1926–27, Baum, Norman Revival)
 * 4730 Fieldston Road (1929–30, Gregory, Georgian Revival)
 * 5001 Goodridge Avenue (1916, Baum, Colonial Revival)
 * Baum's own residence
 * 5020 Goodridge Avenue (1914–15, Harrie T. Lindeberg, Tudor Revival
 * the residence of Mayor Fiorello La Guardia from 1945 until his death in 1947; later owned and occupied by author Robert Silverberg from 1961 to 1971
 * 4538 Greystone Avenue (c.1924, attributed to R.C. Hunter)
 * features "a turreted tower and a steeply pitched slate-covered roof with a deliberate sag", making it "one of the most charming" in the neighborhood
 * 4550 Livingston Avenue near West 246th Street (1915-1916 Dwight James Baum, Medieval Revival)
 * 4600 Livingston Avenue near West 246th Street (1922–24, Clarence S. Stein, Colonial Revival)
 * 351 West 245th Street (1924–25, W. Stanwood Phillips, Colonial Revival)
 * Phillips designed 14 houses in the neighborhood
 * 355 West 246th Street (1911–12, Mann & MacNeille, Tudor Revival)
 * one of the first houses commissioned by the Delafield estate; Mann & MacNeille designed 8 houses in Fieldston
 * 331 West 250th Street at Fieldston Road (1918–19, Baum, Dutch Colonial Revival)
 * 4401–4403 Waldo Avenue (1913, C. Van Valkenberg; additions: 1919 & 1927, Baum; Tudor Revival)
 * originally the office of the Delafield Estate, then of Albert E. Wheeler, the civil engineer who laid out Fieldston; now a private home
 * 4405 Waldo Avenue (1928, Baum, Medieval Revival)
 * originally the residence of Albert E. Wheeler
 * C. E. Chambers House – 4670 Waldo Avenue between College Road and Livingston Avenue (c.1917, Gregory)
 * reminiscent of an English country house

Outside the historic district

 * Hadley House – 5122 Post Road (center: 18th century; north wing: 2nd quarter, 19th century; south wing and remodeling by Baum, 1915–1916); a New York City landmark
 * the center section is one of the oldest residences in the Bronx
 * Christ Church – 5030 Henry Hudson Parkway East at West 252nd Street (1865–66, Richard M. Upjohn); a New York City landmark
 * "Small, picturesque romantic Victorian Gothic Revival church"
 * Riverdale Presbyterian Church and manse (The Duff House) – 4763 Henry Hudson Parkway at West 249th Street (1863–64, James Renwick Jr., Late Gothic Revival); a New York City landmark and listed on the National Register of Historic Places
 * Conservative Synagogue Adath Israel of Riverdale – 475 West 250th Street at Henry Hudson Parkway (1962, Percival Goodman)
 * "Strong forms in concrete and dark red brick make this ... an unneighborly character"
 * Horace Mann School – 231 West 246th Street at Tibbett Avenue, including:
 * Pforzheimer Hall (1956, Victor Christ-Janer)
 * Prettyman Gymnasium (1968, Charles E. Hughes III)
 * Gratwick Science Hall Addition (1975, Frost Assoc.)
 * Middle School and Arts/Dining Building (1999, Gruzen Samton)
 * Ethical Culture Fieldston School – 3901 Fieldston Drive at Manhattan College Parkway
 * Middle School and Athletic Building (2007, Cooper, Robertson & Partners)
 * Manhattan College – 4513 Manhattan College Parkway, a Roman Catholic liberal arts college

title: Fieldston, Bronx


text:
Talk:Harmonium (Vanessa Carlton album)

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license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Harmonium (Vanessa Carlton album)


text: Category:Presidential aircraft

title: Category:Presidential aircraft


text:
Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/172/Evidence

abusive refactoring?
How is refactoring by moving discussion to a more appropriate place an "aggresive [sic] misuse of [a] talk page"? People do that all the time. Did 172 revert WHEELER's decision to move the discussion back? —No-One Jones (m) 16:52, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * 172 has made many abusive refactorings, but I agree this wasn't a prime example (altho it was entirely innapropriate), so I removed it. Sam [Spade] 17:12, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Tiananmen and democracy
Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 shows a conflict, but a sufficient reason was given in the edit summary, in my opinion, as there were only a few reverts. Additionally, 172's reasons were likely similar to those of Ruy Lopez - it would be different if Ruy Lopez had agreed with Fred, and 172 had continued to revert. So I do not feel this incident contradicts the arbitration decision I proposed. Martin 13:33, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Accepting a case with absolutely no basis in an ongoing dispute, the AC is allowing anyone with an ax to grind to cherry-pick anything out of my entire user history (two years and ~15,000 edits)... Of course anyone is going to be able to twist things around and present something, given how broad the AC has allowed him to make this case-- considering the extend of my contributions and the nature of the articles that I write and edit... The arbitration process is showing itself to be an utter sham. Accepting a case on such broad terms will convict anyone before the process even starts... It's clear that the AC was waiting for any excuse to drive me off this site (I will leave in disgust if the AC allows these stupid tricks and games to be played out) because of personal and political reasons. 172 21:46, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm considering the evidence presented in precisely the context you note: that they are the very worst that Sam Spade could find. As I noted w.r.t. Tiananmen, the very worst turns out to be not that bad. Martin 16:13, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Recent conduct on the article Natural monopoly
I'm not sure if I'm introducing this in the right place -- my apologies if I am not.

I notice that point 7 of the Proposed findings of fact in this case mentions that 172 has signed up to the "harmonious editing club", which includes a pledge to "bind [himself] to the rule of 'you can only revert once'".

Recently, 172 has reverted the article Natural monopoly three times in the space of two hours. This would seem to contravene the "harmonious editing club" pledge. The reverts are as follows; link text is 172's edit comment.

 * RV content-free Randroid POV mumbo jumbo
 * RV content-free POV nonsense
 * See earlier comments by Rd232 in talk and in the edit summaries justifying the removal of this paragraph

This matter came to my attention because I noticed the deletion of what seemed to be reasonably useful text. I reverted 172's deletions twice, requested more comment upon them, and have requested that he not insult his fellow editors. I then came across the Wikipedia Signpost article about the ArbCom, which mentioned that 172 had a case here.

Again, if I'm introducing this in the wrong place, I apologize; I don't know much about arbitration procedures. --FOo 20:26, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it is in the wrong place. But I will still respond to it... I did not make references to any individuals in my edit summaries. There is a key difference between criticizing content and attacking a user. The former is an essential aspect of the peer editing process. It is alluded to in the disclaimer every time that a user logs on to an editing Wikipedia page. The latter is against policy. If reading criticism of one's work makes a user uncomfortable, that person will have a hard time on Wikipedia. The above is a mischaracterization of my actions... Regarding reversions, yes, they are always unfortunate. At the same time, it is even more unfortunate to have an encyclopedia article contaminated by a nonsensical POV paragraph. It was not within my control that the user that wrote it chose to ignore User:Rd232's thorough explanation on talk as to why it did not belong in the article. In life one constantly has to balance conflicting priorities. 172 22:34, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Thank you for your response. The concern that I raised, however, was not so much to do with your attacking of RJII's contribution with insulting language. It was, rather, that the ArbCom's proposed findings included the point that you had pledged to avoid making more than one revert, whereas in the case of the Natural monopoly article you made three reverts. That's all, really. --FOo 01:27, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Every user should pledge to try to limit himself or herself to one revert pending discussion, when discussion is an option. Will you? Will RJII? (I'll reiterate my pledge to do this right now.) It would even be a good idea if users had to make this pledge when first signing on for an account. At any rate, every user should also weigh conflicting priorities, focusing foremost on the quality of articles. At times harmonious editing is not the viable option out of two conflicting set of objections (process versus quality). The problem is that some users will push a POV regardless of discussion. When a POV-pusher keeps ignores the talk page and continues to insist on making inappropriate changes, the talk page is useless unless other editors revert him or her. RJII was ignoring Rd232's thorough response on talk; and earlier, before I made my reverts, Rd232 was also forced to revert him in order to pull RJII into the discussion. Given the concerns Rd232 had brought up on talk, I agree that he was making the right move in reverting him; in turn, I stand by my reverts. 172 02:47, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Thank you again for your response. I hope I understand you correctly: it seems to me that you are saying that you do not intend to keep the "harmonious editing" promise that you made -- because other editors do not make the same promise, and you do not want to be disadvantaged in dealing with them; and because sometimes deleting "POV" contributions is a higher priority to you than keeping a promise. Is this a fair description of your position? --FOo 03:46, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This discussion belongs on the Harmonious Editing talk page. I'm wondering if this was an attempt to embarrass me in order to bully me out of the economics articles, where you are clearly advancing a POV similar to RJII's. If that game is going to be played, I'll be able to hold my own. The ruling states for now that I discussed the reasons for my changes, and even engaged users whom I find trollish. It also says, "172's use of reverts... does not affect diminish 172's legitimacy worth as an editor, or as an administrator... 172 is a valued contributor with expert knowledge of his subjects of interest." This ruling perhaps makes me the only officially designated "expert" on Wikipedia; so, if this is an attempt to discredit me, it is not going to work. Nevertheless, I will respond once again, however inappropriately you chose to direct this dialogue. I did not break any "promise" to anyone. The Harmonious Editing Club, where I have just clarified my position on membership, is entirely voluntary; and it is a pledge that you make with yourself. I have stood by my stated pledge to make this a goal. The talk page, however, was irrelevant at the time given that RJII was already choosing to ignore Rd232... Re: ... sometimes deleting "POV" contributions is a higher priority to you than keeping a promise... While no promises were broken, in principle an article comes before an editor, readers before writers. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia made by a community, not a social club making an encyclopedia. If an editor is weighing his options and then putting the interests of his own image before the interests of making Wikipedia into a viable sourcebook, then he doesn't belong here. 172 06:20, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)


text:
Apostle Islands National Lakeshore

The Apostle Islands National Lakeshore is a U.S. national lakeshore consisting of 21 islands (Apostle Islands) and shoreline encompassing 69,540 acre on the northern tip of Wisconsin on the shore of Lake Superior. It is known for its collection of historic lighthouses, sandstone sea caves, a few old-growth remnant forests, and natural animal habitats. It is featured on the America the Beautiful Quarters series.

The Apostle Islands National Lakeshore is located in Bayfield, Wisconsin, on Lake Superior, the "largest, cleanest, and coldest of the Great Lakes." The lakeshore comprises beaches, cliffs, water, and 21 islands. Of its area, 42,308 acres is land and 27,232 acres is water, extending 1/4 mile from the 155 miles of shoreline. Madeline Island, with commercial establishments of the town of La Pointe, is the only one of the Apostle Islands not included in the national lakeshore, although a portion of the island is protected as Big Bay State Park.

Ecologically, the islands contain some old growth, but primarily secondary Northern hardwood forest. There are elements of the oak, hickory, and hemlock hardwood forests of the eastern United States, but also features of the Boreal forest typical of Ontario. Larger wildlife on the islands and surrounding area include whitetail deer, black bear, red fox, and coyote. Smaller mammals such as squirrels, beaver, otter, snowshoe hare, and voles are also present. Avian species in the wilderness include waterfowl, ruffed grouse, and woodcock.

Islands
Beginning in the west, going north around the outer islands, then west, then east, ending with the southernmost island, the islands are:
 * Eagle Island
 * Sand Island – dock, ranger station, camping and lighthouse
 * York Island – camping
 * Bear Island
 * Devils Island – dock, lighthouse, and camping
 * Rocky Island – dock, ranger station, and camping
 * South Twin Island – dock and camping
 * North Twin Island
 * Outer Island – dock, lighthouse, and camping
 * Cat Island – camping
 * Ironwood Island – camping
 * Otter Island – dock and camping
 * Raspberry Island – dock, ranger station, and lighthouse
 * Oak Island – dock, ranger station, and camping
 * Manitou Island – dock, ranger station, Manitou fish camp, and camping
 * Stockton Island – two docks, ranger station, and camping. Sites include Trout Point Logging Camp and a sandstone quarry
 * Gull Island
 * Michigan Island – dock, lighthouse, and camping
 * Hermit Island – includes a sandstone quarry
 * Basswood Island – dock, camping, and the McCloud-Brigham Farm
 * Long Island – modern lighthouse on the point

Historical evidence suggests that another island formerly existed alongside Eagle Island. It was known as Steamboat Island, although this name was apparently also used for Eagle Island itself, in which case Steamboat Island was called "Little Steamboat Island." Multiple sources dating from August 1901 document the disappearance of the island around that time, due to unknown natural forces.

History
The Apostle Islands are a result of the glaciers that once covered North America. "Geologically they are originally part of the main land at the edge of the great rift or fault which formed the depression to which the waters of Lake Superior collected." When the glaciers melted, waves from the waters of Lake Superior caused erosion that formed the islands. The islands are composed of mostly red sandstone because of the glacial shift.

It is widely assumed that Native Americans were the first to inhabit the island. "There is some evidence that they were seen and possibly visited sometime in the fourteenth century by Indians who were making their way to Isle Royale near the north shore of the land in search of copper." In the 17th century, the islands were visited by Étienne Brûlé, a French explorer who, like many French Canadians, was trying to discover a new way to the East Indies. "Historians believe that the Jesuits named the islands the Apostle Islands according to their practice of giving holy names to new places." It is said that fur traders were the first explorers to settle in the area, building a village from the money they brought in.

Previously used for logging, farming, and mining during the early 20th century, the islands are returning to a primitive state; evidence of human habitation is still present, albeit mostly obscured by the regenerating forests. The islands' coastlines possess varied geology, where precambrian sandstone has eroded into sea caves, and the resulting sand has formed sandspits, cuspate forelands, tombolos, barrier spits, and beaches.

United States Senator Gaylord Nelson sponsored the federal legislation that established the Apostle Islands National Lakeshore. Public Law 91-424 was signed by President Richard M. Nixon on September 26, 1970. It included 20 islands, a 12 mi strip of the mainland, and approximately 1/4 mile of Lake Superior jurisdiction adjacent to each land unit.

Public Law 99-497 in 1986 added Long Island to the National Lakeshore and transferred ownership of all the light stations from the U.S. Coast Guard to the National Park Service.

After the National Park Service completed a wilderness study in 2004 and received overwhelming support from the public, Congress designated 80 percent of the land area (35000 acre) of the national lakeshore as the Gaylord Nelson Wilderness on December 8, 2004. (Public Law 108-447, Division E, Section 140.) Of the twenty-two Apostle Islands, the wilderness area fully or partially covers eighteen and preserves the prohibition of motorized travel on the wilderness islands. It is the largest wilderness area in Wisconsin. It is named for Gaylord Nelson, a U.S. Senator and governor of Wisconsin, who was instrumental in establishing the National Trails System, the Wilderness Act, and Earth Day.

The National Park Travelers Club held its 2012 convention at the Apostle Islands.

Recreation
Many of the islands offer public docking; a small fee is charged for overnight use. The shoreline contains some historical sites, such as the many lighthouses throughout the islands. Fishing on Lake Superior is a popular activity for both boaters and non-boaters. The lake holds several species of trout and some species of salmon. In seasons when the water is warmer visitors can catch fish from the shore in water as shallow as ten feet.

Camping options range from more civilized sites that offer many amenities, such as well water, vault toilets, and food lockers, to sites that are more remote, further from other campers and offer nothing more than a tent pad or fire ring. Camping is offered on 18 of the 21 islands in the national lakeshore. Permits are required from the National Park Service in advance; reservations for group sites begin most years in January and for individual sites 30 days in advance.

Hunting is permitted on some islands for certain periods of the year. Game include white-tail deer, black bear, grouse, and other small game. As white-tailed deer have become abundant in recent years, deer hunting opportunities have been plentiful, although the logistics of hunting on the islands can be difficult. Hunting black bears is limited to two islands, and there are rules and regulations that apply only to specific areas.

To get from island to island many visitors choose to kayak, either bringing their own kayaks and equipment or renting from a local shop. The islands also offer opportunities to scuba divers to view interesting rock formations and shipwrecks. Scuba diving within a quarter-mile of any island shore requires obtaining a free permit from the park's visitor center.

Lighthouses
Apostle Islands National Lakeshore has more lighthouses than any other National Park Service area (eight historic towers on six islands). For most of the century, the six Apostle Islands Lighthouses have guided ships and boats through the rough waters of Lake Superior and through the Apostle Islands.

The Sand Island lighthouse is one of the most popular lighthouses to visit on the islands. This lighthouse is approximately 44 ft tall and was one of the first lighthouses to be automated in 1922. Boats tour this island June through late August every year on trips provided by volunteers of the National Park Service. The lighthouse on Raspberry Island has been completely renovated and is one of the most scenic in the Apostle Islands. Other lighthouses in the Apostle islands include both Old and New Michigan Island Lights, New La Pointe Light and Chequamegon Point Light on Long Island, Devils Island Light, and Outer Island Light. The ruins of Old LaPointe Light can still be seen on Long Island, approximately 0.5 mi away from the wreckage of the schooner Lucerne.

Local communities
Bayfield, Wisconsin, home of the national lakeshore's headquarters and visitor center, becomes more popular during the summer, when visitors travel to and from the islands. Other nearby communities are Red Cliff, three miles north of Bayfield, which offers a campground, marina, and the Legendary Waters Resort and Casino, and Washburn, located 10 mi from Bayfield.

title: Apostle Islands National Lakeshore


text:
Pelham Gardens, Bronx

Pelham Gardens is a neighborhood located in the Northeast section of the Bronx, New York City. Its boundaries, starting from the north and moving clockwise are East Gun Hill Road to the north and east, Pelham Parkway to the south, and the IRT Dyre Avenue Line to the west ending at the esplanade. Eastchester Road is the primary thoroughfare through Pelham Gardens.

Pelham Gardens is located in Bronx Community Board 11, and its ZIP Code is 10469. The area is patrolled by the New York City Police Department's 49th Precinct.

History
The area was originally home to the Siwanoy, a Native American tribe affiliated with the Algonquian peoples. The name Pelham Gardens derives from Thomas Pell, who purchased the land from the Siwanoy on June 27, 1654 at Treaty Oak, located next to Shore Road in what is now Pelham Bay Park. The town of Westchester was established at this time at what is now Westchester Square; the entire area was part of Westchester County, New York until it was transferred to the city of New York City in 1895. The oldest house in the area is what was once a farmhouse, located at the corner of Woodhull Avenue and Fielding Street.

The neighborhood is socioeconomically diverse, with a considerable working class population as well as many upper middle class professionals, particularly in the eastern area of the community. The proximity to major hospitals and a high concentration of private medical facilities has drawn many health care professionals into the areas, as well as police officers, lawyers, and small business owners, particularly in the fields of construction and food services.

Land use and terrain
Pelham Gardens is dominated by single family homes with some small apartment buildings and 2-3 family homes. Many private homes have basement studio apartments but are classified as one family. The total land area is roughly two square miles. The area its largely flat but contains a significant valley between Eastchester Road and Laconia Avenue, with the most significant low point on Seymour Avenue. This dip was likely caused thousands of years ago by a glacier.

Demographics
Based on data from the 2010 United States Census, the population of the combined Allerton-Pelham Gardens neighborhood was 28,903, an increase of 393 (1.4%) from the 28,510 counted in 2000. Covering an area of 726.98 acres, the neighborhood had a population density of 39.8 PD/acre. The racial makeup of the Allerton-Pelham Gardens neighborhood was 25.3% (7,316) White, 32.5% (9,391) African American, 0.2% (55) Native American, 7.9% (2,282) Asian, 0.0% (12) Pacific Islander, 0.9% (252) from other races, and 1.4% (412) from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 31.8% (9,183) of the population.

Demographically, the neighborhood has historically been home to a large Italian-American population as well as a sizable Jewish population, which has dramatically decreased since the 1970s. Smaller numbers of Irish-Americans and German-Americans have also made this largely Catholic community home since significant development began in the 1920s, with a construction boom in the 1950s. Large numbers of Puerto Rican families have moved into the area since the 1980s, with smaller but significant numbers of Filipino-Americans, African-Americans, Dominican-Americans, Albanian-Americans, Korean Americans, and Vietnamese Americans.

The entirety of Community District 11, which comprises Pelham Gardens, Allerton, and Morris Park, had 116,180 inhabitants as of NYC Health's 2018 Community Health Profile, with an average life expectancy of 79.9 years. This is lower than the median life expectancy of 81.2 for all New York City neighborhoods. Most inhabitants are youth and middle-aged adults: 22% are between the ages of between 0–17, 30% between 25–44, and 24% between 45–64. The ratio of college-aged and elderly residents was lower, at 9% and 14% respectively.

As of 2017, the median household income in Community District 11 was $48,018. In 2018, an estimated 21% of Pelham Gardens and Morris Park residents lived in poverty, compared to 25% in all of the Bronx and 20% in all of New York City. One in eight residents (12%) were unemployed, compared to 13% in the Bronx and 9% in New York City. Rent burden, or the percentage of residents who have difficulty paying their rent, is 55% in Pelham Gardens and Morris Park, compared to the boroughwide and citywide rates of 58% and 51% respectively. Based on this calculation,, Pelham Gardens and Morris Park are considered high-income relative to the rest of the city and not gentrifying.

Police and crime
Pelham Gardens and Morris Park are patrolled by the 49th Precinct of the NYPD, located at 2121 Eastchester Road. The 49th Precinct ranked 43rd safest out of 69 patrol areas for per-capita crime in 2010. , with a non-fatal assault rate of 64 per 100,000 people, Pelham Gardens and Morris Park's rate of violent crimes per capita is slightly more than that of the city as a whole. The incarceration rate of 372 per 100,000 people is lower than that of the city as a whole.

The 49th Precinct has a lower crime rate than in the 1990s, with crimes across all categories having decreased by 71.7% between 1990 and 2022. The precinct reported 7 murders, 17 rapes, 273 robberies, 367 felony assaults, 133 burglaries, 611 grand larcenies, and 371 grand larcenies auto in 2022.

Fire safety
Pelham Gardens is served by the New York City Fire Department (FDNY)'s Engine Co. 97 at 1454 Astor Avenue. >

Health
, preterm births and births to teenage mothers are slightly more common in Pelham Gardens and Morris Park than in other places citywide. In Pelham Gardens and Morris Park, there were 90 preterm births per 1,000 live births (compared to 87 per 1,000 citywide), and 19.7 births to teenage mothers per 1,000 live births (compared to 19.3 per 1,000 citywide). Pelham Gardens and Morris Park has a low population of residents who are uninsured. In 2018, this population of uninsured residents was estimated to be 12%, the same as the citywide rate of 12%.

The concentration of fine particulate matter, the deadliest type of air pollutant, in Pelham Gardens and Morris Park is 0.0074 mg/m3, less than the city average. Fifteen percent of Pelham Gardens and Morris Park residents are smokers, which is slightly higher than the city average of 14% of residents being smokers. In Pelham Gardens and Morris Park, 32% of residents are obese, 14% are diabetic, and 31% have high blood pressure—compared to the citywide averages of 24%, 11%, and 28% respectively. In addition, 23% of children are obese, compared to the citywide average of 20%.

Eighty-three percent of residents eat some fruits and vegetables every day, which is lower than the city's average of 87%. In 2018, 80% of residents described their health as "good", "very good", or "excellent", slightly higher than the city's average of 78%. For every supermarket in Pelham Gardens and Morris Park, there are 17 bodegas.

The nearest large hospitals are Calvary Hospital, Montefiore Medical Center's Jack D. Weiler Hospital, and NYC Health + Hospitals/Jacobi in Morris Park. The Albert Einstein College of Medicine campus is also located in Morris Park.

Post office and ZIP Code
Pelham Gardens is located within ZIP Code 10469 east of Bronxwood Avenue. The United States Postal Service operates the Baychester Station at 1525 East Gun Hill Road.

Education
Pelham Gardens and Morris Park generally have a lower rate of college-educated residents than the rest of the city. While 32% of residents age 25 and older have a college education or higher, 24% have less than a high school education and 44% are high school graduates or have some college education. By contrast, 26% of Bronx residents and 43% of city residents have a college education or higher. The percentage of Pelham Gardens and Morris Park students excelling in math rose from 32% in 2000 to 48% in 2011, though reading achievement remained constant at 37% during the same time period.

Pelham Gardens and Morris Park's rate of elementary school student absenteeism is slightly higher than the rest of New York City. In Pelham Gardens and Morris Park, 23% of elementary school students missed twenty or more days per school year, a little more than the citywide average of 20%. Additionally, 74% of high school students in Pelham Gardens and Morris Park graduate on time, about the same as the citywide average of 75%.

Library
The New York Public Library (NYPL) operates the Eastchester branch at 1385 East Gun Hill Road. It has operated since 1950 and moved to its current one-story, 7500 ft2 location in 1985.

Transportation
The following MTA Regional Bus Operations bus routes serve Pelham Gardens:
 * Local and Select Bus Service: to Bay Plaza Shopping Center and Inwood–207th Street (via Fordham Road and Pelham Parkway)
 * to Co-op City and Lehman College (via Bedford Park Blvd and Allerton Av)
 * to Co-op City and Fordham (via East Gun Hill Road)
 * to Woodlawn and Westchester Square station (via Eastchester Road)
 * to East Side, Manhattan

The following New York City Subway stations serve Pelham Gardens:
 * Pelham Parkway
 * Gun Hill Road

Notable residents

 * Lorraine Cortés-Vázquez, Commissioner of the New York City Department of Aging, former New York Secretary of State
 * Philip Foglia (c.1951–2020), prosecutor, lawyer, and Italian American rights activist
 * Jake Lamotta, boxer (lived on Pelham Parkway)
 * Lea Michele, actress, known for Glee (lived on Tiemann Avenue)

title: Pelham Gardens, Bronx


text:
Nice Cup of Tea and a Sit Down

Nice Cup of Tea and a Sit Down is a website which mainly discusses tea and biscuits, with content including news and reviews of biscuit brands. It is owned and maintained by Stuart Payne and his wife Jenny Payne, who live in Cambridge, England, and spawned a spin-off book of the same name.

"Nicey" and "Wifey"
The website's creators, marital partners Stuart and Jenny Payne, are best known under their pseudonyms "Nicey" and "Wifey". As the website increased in popularity, Stuart Payne was interviewed in the mainstream press and became "one of the world's most sought-after biscuit critics", with biscuit manufacturers sending him free samples in the hope of a favourable review. Payne's views were sought by the BBC on the launch of the leading American Oreo cookie into the UK.

Website
The website takes a humorous look at quintessentially British topics. The most common topics are tea, biscuits, cake and "sit downs". The website has been featured on the BBC website and their weekly technology TV programme Click, The Times, The Daily Telegraph and The Guardian newspapers, as well as the Richard & Judy chatshow. In September 2006, the British Library proposed that Nice Cup of Tea and a Sit Down should be archived along with other socially significant websites.

Book
As a spinoff from the website, the couple produced a book on the subject. It has the following sections: Starts with "My worst cup of tea ever" and reviews the different sorts of tea and methods of making them, including discussion of teabags, teapots, kettles and mugs. The main part of the book, includes the technical definitions of all sorts of biscuits from the simple Rich Tea to the complex such as the Penguin, with advice on storage, dunking and enjoyment. These are mostly British, with a final section on foreign ones which have entered the UK market such as Tim Tam or Choco Leibniz. A Venn diagram shows the distinctions and overlaps between the categories biscuit, cake, bread, crackers, chocolate biscuits and chocolate bars. Covers Jaffa Cake, wedding cake, fairy cakes, packet cakes, ginger cake and Battenberg, with discussion of icing and glacé cherries. Sitting down in a comfy chair is advised, but advice is given on other tea situations, including in moving vehicles, and in public places such as cafés. Caution is advised with vending machines, and the Christmas season is discussed.
 * A Nice Cup of Tea
 * Some Biscuits
 * A Little Bit of Cake
 * And a Sit Down

title: Nice Cup of Tea and a Sit Down


text:
Talk:Wanted Dead or Alive (Warren Zevon album)

I thought this album was record in 1969 but not released until after the success of Excitable Boy.

70.88.213.74 (talk) 19:47, 18 August 2008 (UTC)


text:
Talk:Anatoly Lebedko

Russian spelling
Again, I don't understand why one earth we are using Russian spelling on Wikipedia? This is the same issue as with mister Lukashenka/Lukashenko. Here it's even worse. Liabedzka is a Belarusian-speaking person, and his native tongue is Belarusian, so why does English Wikipedia picks up and uses the transliteration from Russian? I don't understand. --rydel 16:59, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Probably this question should be addressed to Anatoly Lebedko himself not Wikipedians. UCPB site (English version) provide Russian transliteration. Same is true for news sources used for article. --EugeneZelenko 01:29, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Yeah, it seems to be his preferred form for some reason, perhaps because it's easier to pronounce in English. All sources I've found use Lebedko as his name.  Lukashenka/Lukashenko is more borderline I'd say, as the Belarusian transliteration is much more widely used in his case. --Delirium 04:14, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)

 * And they are all wrong. News sources all used Associated Press, and I am sure Associated Press does not even have a Belarusan-speaking reporter from Belarus. Here is one more point for you to consider. I am pretty sure it says "Lyabedzka" or "Liabedzka" in his own passport. You wanna bet? We can e-mail him. Or my sister, I think, also has his mobile phone number. Do you want me to call and ask how it's spelled in his passport, gentlemen? I sure we'll do it once Mr. Liabedzka is out of the hospital. --rydel 22:16, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I don't think we were arguing about what it says on his passport. We're arguing over which name is used in English.  For example, the city of München is called Munich in English, so we use that name.  This person appears in English to be called Anatoly Lebedko, including by his own political party, so it would be odd to use an name that nobody else, when speaking English, uses.  Wikipedia follows usage; it doesn't dictate it. --Delirium 23:45, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

 * Basically, what you are saying, DaleeriuM, is that the English translator of their party's website (probably a sophomore or junior from Minsk foreign language institute, most probably some Russian speaking young student) ultimately decided for the rest of the world which form is to be used in English. Amazing. --rydel 11:04, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * No, I'm saying that the collective speakers of English decided which form is to be used in English, which is pretty much the only way these things are done. Mr. Lebedko himself, his party, other members of his party who give interviews, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, the United States Senate, BBC News, the Associated Press, and everyone else I've come across use the name Anatoly Lebedko when speaking in English.  He speaks English you know, and has granted numerous interviews in English, and this is the name he calls himself.  Since absolutely nobody calls him "Lyabedzka" in English—including he himself—there's no reason for us to do so. --Delirium 14:52, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC)

 * OK. You are right. --rydel 19:44, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Please note
PLEASE NOTE, THAT THIS ARTICLE IS HIGLY BIIASED, AS IT DOES NOT COVER MR. LEBEDKO CARIER BEFORE JOINING THE OPPOSITION, WHICH INCLUDED SERVING IN A.LUKASHENKA ADMINISTRATION!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 77.74.42.9 (talk • contribs).

External links modified
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title: Talk:Anatoly Lebedko


text:
Nicaragua national football team

The Nicaragua national football team (Selección de fútbol de Nicaragua) represents Nicaragua in men's international football and is controlled by the Nicaraguan Football Federation. Nicaragua achieved their first qualification into a major international competition in 2009, as they qualified for the 2009 Gold Cup as the last entrant from Central America, after a 2–0 victory against Guatemala in the fifth place match in the 2009 Nations Cup. However, the team has never qualified for the FIFA World Cup.

Due to American influence throughout the country's history, baseball has more of a following as both a pursuit and spectator event in Nicaragua than football.

History
Nicaragua traveled to El Salvador for their first ever international, losing 9–0 to the hosts on 1 May 1929. They did not play another match for over twelve years, until the qualifying group for the 1941 CCCF Championship in Costa Rica. They lost all 4 games: 7–2 to the hosts Costa Rica on 10 May, 8–0 to El Salvador on 13 May, 9–1 to the Netherlands Antilles on 15 May and 5–2 to Panama on 18 May. Therefore, Nicaragua finished bottom of the group and did not make the final group.

Recent times
After qualifying for the 2019 Gold Cup on the back of finishing ninth in Nations League qualifying, they would go on to finish bottom of the group with losses to Costa Rica, Haiti and Bermuda.

Nicaragua qualified directly for the 2023 Gold Cup and was promoted to Nations League A as group winners in Nations League B but was disqualified on 12 June 2023 for fielding an ineligible player. As a result, they were replaced in the Gold Cup and League A by Trinidad and Tobago, who was the best second-place team overall in League B and must stay in Nations League B.

Results and fixtures
The following is a list of match results in the last 12 months, as well as any future matches that have been scheduled.

Coaching history

 * 🇦🇷 José "Chingolo" Rodríguez (Unknown)
 * 🇳🇮 Omar Zambrana (Unknown)
 * 🇳🇮 Octavio Edmundo Salas Urbina (1941–1943)
 * 🇭🇺 Eduardo Kosovic (1943)
 * 🇨🇷 José Antonio Pipa Cordero (1947)
 * 🇨🇷 Santiago Bonilla (1952–1953)
 * 🇭🇺 Ferenc Mészáros (1961)
 * 🇳🇮 Carlos Ruiz (1961–1962)
 * 🇦🇷 Santiago Berrini (1965–1967)
 * 🇳🇮 Livio Bendaña Espinoza (1967–1969)
 * 🇦🇷 Omar Muraco (1969–1970)
 * 🇳🇮 Salvador Dubois Leiva (1977, 1991–1992)
 * 🇦🇷 Orlando Casares (1980–1981)
 * Ján Fülöp (1984–1986)
 * 🇳🇮 Mauricio Cruz Jiron (1993–2001, 2008)
 * 🇳🇮 Florencio Levia (2001–2002)
 * 🇮🇹 Maurizio Battistini (2003–2004)
 * 🇦🇷 Marcelo Javier Zuleta (2005)
 * 🇦🇷 Carlos de Toro (2007–2008)
 * 🇳🇮 Ramón Otoniel Olivas (2008–2009)
 * 🇪🇸 Enrique Llena (2010–2014)
 * 🇨🇴 Javier Londono (2014)
 * 🇨🇷 Henry Duarte (2014–2020)
 * 🇦🇷 Juan Vita (2020–2022)
 * 🇨🇱 Marco Antonio Figueroa (2022–)

Current squad
The following players were called up to the squad for 2026 FIFA World Cup qualification matches against Montserrat and Belize on 5 and 8 June 2024.

Caps and goals correct as of 8 June 2024, after the match against Belize.

Recent call-ups
The following players have been called up for the team in the last twelve months.

INJ Player withdrew from the squad due to an injury. PRE Preliminary squad. RET Player retired from the national team. SUS Player is serving suspension. WD Player withdrew from the squad due to non-injury issue. INE Ineligible player.

Records

 * Players in bold are still active with Nicaragua.

FIFA World Cup
The Nicaragua national football team has never qualified for the World Cup. Their latest attempt was for the 2022 World Cup, when the side failed to advance from the first round.

Head-to-head record
As of 8 June 2024 after the match against 🇧🇿 belize.

title: Nicaragua national football team


text:
User talk:Chotuchotu

Mridul and Gurminder sitting on a tree.... S I N G I N G

title: User talk:Chotuchotu


text: Category:Drink companies

title: Category:Drink companies


text:
File:KP skatebowl 2.jpg

Kennington Park Skatebowl 3

Photo by Stefan Szczelkun 2004

title: File:KP skatebowl 2.jpg


text:
Category:Oxide minerals

Minerals with oxygen as the anion.

title: Category:Oxide minerals


text: Category:Companies of Austria

title: Category:Companies of Austria


text:
User talk:Richard Harvey

Talk Archive 1, 2, 3, 4

Happy New Year, Richard Harvey!

Happy New Year! Richard Harvey, Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia. Regards, Yamaguchi先生 (talk) 22:21, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

 * Spread the WikiLove; use {{subst:Happy New Year 2016}} to send this message

Please claim your upload(s): File:Yorkshire Regiment Tactical Recognition Flash.jpg
Hi, Thank you, for uploading this file.

However, as part of ongoing efforts to ensure all media on English Wikipedia is correctly licensed and attributed it would be appreciated if you were able to confirm some details,

If it's your own work, please include own, amend the information added by a third party, and change the license to an appropriate "self" variant. You can also add  to the media by uploader or presumed_self tag if it is present to indicate that you've acknowledged the image, and license shown (and updated the information where appropriate).

If it's not your own work please provide as much sourcing/authorship information as you are able to.

It would also be appreciated if you could "claim" or update the source and licensing on other media you uploaded, You can find a list of files you have created [ in your upload log].

This will assist those reviewing the many many "free" images on commons that have not yet been transferred to Commons. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 17:55, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Concerned over new Wikipedia editors
Hello, you left a comment on my page a while ago, in regards to the strange edits on Mughal-Sikh battles by some users. I have noticed a recent upsurge in similar such edits, with users with new accounts most notably user:Why do people not understand, who creates new articles that are entirely unsourced, such as Gurkha-Sikh War, Punjab War (the creator of this article was a confirmed sockpuppet), Mughal-Sikh Wars (no source, but I added some and he keeps on reverting it, which was initially created by a user with similar edits named User:Gurbar Akaal), and Anti-Sikh jihad which was deleted after I requested a speedy delete for blatant hoax. Any valuable input would be appreciated. Xtremedood (talk) 07:20, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Your access to AWB may be temporarily removed
Hello Richard Harvey! This message is to inform you that due to editing inactivity, your access to AutoWikiBrowser may be temporarily removed. If you do not resume editing within the next week, your username will be removed from the CheckPage. This is purely for routine maintenance and is not indicative of wrongdoing on your part. You may regain access at any time by simply requesting it at WP:PERM/AWB. Thank you! — MusikBot II  talk  19:44, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Duke of Wellington's Regiment
Hi - Please see my comments on Talk:Duke of Wellington's Regiment I think you have done a great job of improving the article but also believe there is a strong case for splitting it as the regiment arose from the amalgamation of two (separate) regiments in 1881. Thoughts welcome. Dormskirk (talk) 11:31, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Huddersfield Literature Festival Logo.JPG
 Thanks for uploading File:Huddersfield Literature Festival Logo.JPG. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in section F5 of the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. --B-bot (talk) 17:20, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

title: User talk:Richard Harvey


text:
Category:Farmers

This category deals with farmers.

title: Category:Farmers


text:
Dave Clark (musician)

David Clark (born 15 December 1939) is an English musician, songwriter, record producer and entrepreneur. Clark was the leader, drummer and manager of the 1960s beat group the Dave Clark Five, the first British Invasion band to follow the Beatles to the United States in 1964. In 2008, Clark and his band were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

Early life
Clark was born in Tottenham, then lived in Middlesex. He left school without qualifications at the age of 15 and claims to have become a film stuntman, performing in over 40 films (although IMDB only gives him four pre-fame film credits). In the late 1950s he bought a set of drums, taught himself how to play them, and formed a skiffle band to raise funds so that his football team could travel to the Netherlands. The skiffle band grew into the Dave Clark Five, with Clark their leader, co-songwriter, manager and producer.

The Dave Clark Five

The Dave Clark Five grew in popularity in the UK. They unseated the Beatles' "I Want to Hold Your Hand" from its number one spot in the UK singles charts in January 1964 with "Glad All Over". The British press, briefly, called them the Beatles' "most serious threat". The Dave Clark Five were the first British Invasion band to follow the Beatles to the United States in 1964, where they achieved 14 top 20 hits, eight of which were consecutive. They also appeared on The Ed Sullivan Show more times than any other English group. Dave Clark became a popular name for babies in the 1960s.

Andrew Loog Oldham, former manager of the Rolling Stones, said of the band's early success as rivals to the Beatles: "If the Beatles ever looked over their shoulders, it was not the Stones they saw. They saw the Dave Clark 5 or Herman's Hermits."

The band broke up in 1970, and Clark stopped drumming in 1972 after he broke four knuckles in a tobogganing accident.

Later works
He later wrote a science fiction stage musical, Time, which debuted in 1986. It played for two years in London's West End, starring Cliff Richard (replaced later by David Cassidy). The musical also launched a concept album, likewise titled Time, which featured Richard, Freddie Mercury, Leo Sayer, Stevie Wonder and Dionne Warwick. Two million copies were sold and it spun off several hit singles.

Clark is an entrepreneur and a multi-millionaire. He owns a £12 million house in West London. From the outset, Clark owned the rights to all the Dave Clark Five music masters. It is claimed that other songwriters in the band were required to give copyright ownership of their tunes to Clark, even if he did not co-write them. In the late 1960s, in addition to managing his band, Clark began directing and producing for television. In 1968 he made a television production, Hold On, It's the Dave Clark Five. In the 1980s he acquired the rights to the 1960s UK music show Ready Steady Go!.

On the release of a Dave Clark Five British hits album in the mid-1970s, Clark resided in the US for a year, thus avoiding paying UK taxes in Britain on the proceeds of that release. The British government challenged this but lost the case in court.

In 1993, Clark released remastered versions of all the Dave Clark Five singles on a CD, Glad All Over Again.

Companies House lists him as director of several companies.

Personal life
Clark was a close friend of Freddie Mercury, whom he had known since 1976. He was by Mercury's bedside when the Queen singer died on 24 November 1991.

Honours and legacy
In 2008, marking the 50th anniversary of the founding of the band, the Dave Clark Five were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Clark, making a rare public appearance, and the two other surviving band members at the time accepted the award on behalf of the group.

In 2014, Clark wrote, produced, appeared in, and partly presented, the 115-minute documentary The Dave Clark Five and Beyond: Glad All Over.

Discography
Dave Clark Five

(See DC5 discography at The Dave Clark Five discography)

Solo

 * Time (1986)

title: Dave Clark (musician)


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nice cup of tea and a sit down

Nice cup of tea and a sit down was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was KEEP. 10 votes to keep, 6 votes to delete. Postdlf 23:26, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Nice cup of tea and a sit down
Wikipedia is not a web directory, their site has an Alexa ranking of 535,109, though it is a good site. Dunc|☺ 17:12, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Concur with duncharris. --Improv 17:50, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Cult website that has spawned a book, I think it is within the realms of notablility, and Wikipedia is not paper. Darksun 19:32, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Willing to change my vote if the article establishes that this is indeed some notable cult website. Gamaliel 20:05, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Done, see article now — siro  χ  o  00:36, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)
 * Change vote to keep. The article is pretty vague, but it seems the subject is indeed somewhat notable. Gamaliel 17:30, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete: it is kind of famous, but I'm not sure there's much more to say than "it's a website; a fairly famous one; oh, and they wrote a book". Feel free to prove me wrong and come up with some genuine information, but I can't see this ever being more than a sub-stub. - IMSoP 20:26, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete: A famous website just seems to me to be like a really old grasshopper: it may be old for its kind, but it's still short-lived.  There are exceptions, but I'd see them as extremely few, partly because we are a web site ourselves, and people seeking information about Amazon.com can go to Amazon.com more quickly than they can go to us and read an entry explaining Amazon.com.  Our service in these matters would be to discuss such sites in terms of history and impact, and that's only going to be necessary or possible with sites that are more than popular.  Geogre 21:15, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * The article now explains that this site was an internet phenomenon that attracted much media attention. It also places the book as the more notable item, which is currently true.  — siro  χ  o  11:25, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Advertising. And site does not meet the high bar of notability required for websites. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 22:21, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete, fully agree with what Geogre said. - Taxman 22:42, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)

 * Strong keep, note that the book has a sales rank of 258  101 on www.amazon.co.uk Unless that amazon site differs from www.amazon.com in how it ranks sales, that is very strong.  If i've somehow misinterpreted this, tell me and Ill change my vote   — siro  χ  o  23:03, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)

 * Weak Keep, if expanded. Moderatly notable cult sites should have an entry. Did it spawn a catch-prase?
 * Keep. Seems somewhat notable, needs expansion. [[User:Rhymeless|Rhymeless | (Methyl Remiss)]] 05:37, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete, if just to teach people not to create stubs after stubs after stubs. The book is just a mild text on how to drink tea. How one can expand this without making it advertisement I do not know. Mandel 08:52, Oct 22, 2004 (UTC)
 * I explained a bit about the cultural significance as an intertnet phenomenon and the media's attraction to the website. — siro  χ  o  00:36, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)
 * Being a stub is not a reason for deletion. Please consider rereading the deletion policy  — siro  χ  o  00:11, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep. Keep and expand.  Radman1 17:07, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Abstain per Siroxo, Delete the article has essentially no content. If someone wants to add content, go ahead.  But this is not an article; it's a link to a website.  Why keep that? Wolfman 01:56, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I've expanded it. — siro  χ  o  00:36, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep, but instead of being an article about the website, which by the way spawned a book, it should be an article about the book, which by the way developed from a website. Amazon.co.uk sales rank is now up to 118. JamesMLane 04:29, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Notice: I've done some expansion to the article to explain its cultural siginificance a bit. I don't think the VfD vote applies any more to this article, as it is clearly not just about a cult website, but about a much larger phenomenon. — siro χ  o  00:36, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep, obviously - David Gerard 07:25, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep; widely followed generally UK-specific cult website, Alexa ratings inappropriate to measure this. James F. (talk) 14:12, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep: but still needs expansion, I can't really tell what the book is about. Surely someone can give the book as much attention as Star Trek: TNG season 4 episode 8 got. Key45 21:00, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like other '/delete' pages is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
Talk:Gelato

A case of mistaken identity
Another misnomer I have recently encountered, one very relevant to gelato is this: in certain parts of the USA, most notably on the East Coast (particularly in New Jersey), the word 'gelati' is being used to describe a parfait (layered dessert) containing alternating layers Italian water ice and soft-serve, ice cream or custard. Strictly speaking, 'gelati' is the plural of 'gelato' and the aforementioned dessert bears no resemblance to true gelato. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gelatomaster (talk • contribs) 02:07, December 15, 2005

Water Ice? What's That?

Noteworthy, is the fact that "Italian Ice", or "Water Ice", as the East Coast of the US knows, does not exist anywhere in Italy or Europe. Granita, a frozen mix of fruit puree, sugar and water, would be the closest thing to what Americans call "Italian Ice". Maybe someone would consider moving the quoted "misnomer" above to the Gelato article, as a note. It is confusing to many east-coasters who are experiencing Authentic Gelato for the first time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.82.9.84 (talk • contribs) 17:54, February 9, 2006

Very problematic article
This article seems to be intended to describe the artisanal (or artisanal-style) ice cream found in Italian gelaterie and its imitations in North America.

Unfortunately, the term is more or less meaningless. In Italy, gelato just means ice cream, of any kind and of any fat content. In the United States, it has no legal definition. It is sometimes claimed that gelato in the United States contains only milk and not cream, but this is false. The market leader in gelato, Talenti, uses cream as well as milk and their Vanilla Gelato contains about 10% fat total, about the same as Breyer's Vanilla Ice Cream.

Using the name gelato in the US does circumvent the legal requirement that ice cream contain at least 10% fat, but there is no requirement at all that gelato not contain 10% fat. --Macrakis (talk) 17:46, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

 * This article is a typical example of US/UK "linguistic appropriation"; the import of a word or phrase from another language and the subsequent attempts to force the new meaning of the word on the language from where it originally came. As such, the article will always be silly. 46.135.81.126 (talk) 07:08, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
 * "In Italy, gelato just means ice cream", you're wrong. When we go on holiday, or for work, outside Italy we use the term 'gelato' to indicate the ice cream (e.g., the English ice cream), but in Italy with the word 'gelato' we refer to our gelato, since ice cream (e.g., the English one) isn't sold in the Bel Paese; in addition, if we want to buy a, for example, "Magnum", we say gelato confezionato (lit. 'packaged ice cream'. Not Italian gelato confezionato, with the exception of some brands; "Magnum" is Danish, etc.); in this case "gelato" is used to mean 'ice cream'. I know, It's not easy. JacktheBrown (talk) 07:38, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Unobjective article
This article is blatantly factious and Florence-centered. Gelato's origin is still a mystery, there are multiple Italian people accredited to have invented it and many Italian cities claiming its origin, but we only have myths and theories. Moreover, the references about the alleged origin of gelato in Florence are all from Florentine sources, which makes this article far from objective. --Anonymous (talk) 11:11, 8 August 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.147.242.175 (talk)

Language
I would like to know who decides whether an article should be written in American English or British English, are there specific reasons or is it random? Nothing against American English, it has a really good sound and is a pleasure to listen to, but this article would be better if it were written in British English; my opinion. In any case, is there a specific reason why this article should be in American English? JacktheBrown (talk) 22:06, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Gelato


text:
Talk:Shapiro time delay

Removed text
I removed this text: Some have argued that the Shapiro Effect can account for the Hubble redshift without having to posit an expanding universe. It appears this has been thoroughly discredited. P. Riis 17:13, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

True. Kmarinas86 23:22, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

False: This argument has not been discredited, claims alluding to it's refute have been asserted by mainstream Astronomers with an agenda to prevent the immenent loss of their funding.'' The only force stronger than the force of gravity, is the force of greed. Denying clear evidence is a sure sign of religious bias, and a spit in the face of empirical science. unsigned 23:18, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I submit that the above be ignored. The Shapiro delay cannot explain Hubble flow: it is very much too small. This is not a matter of something being discredited, but of it never being considered seriously in the first place. I suspect that 'unsigned' would call me "mainstream Astronomer", but making a statement on this one way or the other is most unlikely to affect anyone's funding, assuming that they support it. Michaelbusch 22:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I submit that no evidence be ignored, open discussion and research is the way to get at the truth, not by censoring opinions that don't agree with one's own. The Shapiro effect is not too small when applied to photons traveling over vast distances, such as through interstellar space. the cumulative effect would account for observed redshift on the Hubble scale. incidentally the Mössbauer effect and Compton effect have also been proposed as alternative causes for redshift. As for funding, no Astrophysicist who has published and built his reputation around such research, having acquired government funding involving "astronomical" sums of money is going to drop his basket of eggs to chase a rainbow, that may or may not hold the key to the true nature of the cosmos. unsigned 23:22, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I did not censor, merely suggesting that your previous comment isn't relevant to the article. I simply gave the reason for Shapiro delay not being relevant on the cosmological scale: there is very much less mass. Mossbauer fails because it works only for solid materials and for gamma rays. Compton fails because it doesn't work at low energies. This is all I will say on the subject, because this is an encyclopedia, not a pseudo-science discussion board. Michaelbusch 00:05, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

How much mass there is, or isn't is a matter of distance, the Hubble scale assumes a given distance to redshift ratio, however there is no guarantee this ratio is correct. With gravitational drag the greater the distance light travels, the greater the redshift. This would explain why light from galaxies beyond 7 x 10^9 lightyears is unable to reach us. There may be an absolute maximum distance light can travel before it's wavelengths are time stretched beyond what earth based telescopes can detect.

To state that a comment on the Shapiro delay accounting for stellar redshift is irrelevant to an article on Shapiro delay is a bit like saying the pope is irrelvant to the vatican. this is not pseudo science. Furthermore, neither you, nor I nor any living human is an authority on the true nature of the cosmos, and any claim on such absolute knowledge is a pretence. All theories are by definition "theoretical" and chances are we're all way off. you may have the last word on this discussion board, but your's is not the last word on the subject. unsigned 23:37, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

At the penalty of contradicting myself, one final statement on this thread: Shapiro delay as described in this article does not change the frequency of light at all, just changing the travel time. There are corrections to frequency which are related to gravitational Doppler shift, but those are very small indeed. Michaelbusch 00:22, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The frequency of light need not change to produce redshift in a time dragged frame, the reciprocal of frequency is wavelength, and it's the wavelength which would be stretched. It's necessary to look at the big picture, rather than nitpick over it's small components. There is also no guarantee that the GR model of gravity is correct, for example in a plasma universe governed solely by electrodynamic laws, the physics on a cosmic scale is not the same.

note: no accusation is made towards any particular Astronomer regarding their motives, undoubtedly there are very many mainstream Astronomers who are absolutely sincere and engaged in honest research, my comment was only directed at those (who know who they are) who do in fact have an agenda. unsigned 23:49, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The interaction of the photon and the electron is not elastic. The transfer of energy in the interaction of infrared light and matter can only happen if the photon-electron interaction is inelastic. As the Einstein quote points out, photons must slow in order for them to follow a curved path. The side of the photon nearer the gravity source must have a slower speed for the path to curve, but both sides of the photon slow. Additionally, in that the interaction of the photon and the electron is inelastic, there is a transfer of energy in the interaction of the photon and the mass in the vicinity, resulting in a redshift of the photon. This explains both the Shapiro effect and cosmic redshift. This argument supports the “tired light” hypothesis and a static universe. My Flatley (talk) 23:54, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Missing data on Shapiro effect
If someone knows the numerical data it would be nice to place them here on the page. How much longer it takes the signal to make the round trip and how much speed of light changes in the gravitational field. My theoretical result (from the principle of conservation of energy) tells that dc/dx=g/(2c), where x is in directon opposite to the source of gravitational field. I wonder what's the observational result in the Shapiro effect. Jim 18:58, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

I would suggest writing Prof. Shapiro directly. here is his email address at the Center for Astrophysics - Harvard Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory: ishapiro@cfa

Some problems with current version
Quick note: one problem is that "isolated mass" should be "nonrotating isolated mass" and should include discussion of the coordinate chart. The Schwarzschild exterior chart is a good choice here, but of course other charts are more useful for other purposes, and reader should not be confused by conflating a chart with the solution it describes, particularly since Schwarzschild charts are often useful for other static spherically symmetric solutions, such as Reissner-Nordstrom or Janis-Newman-Winacour.---CH 04:41, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Also, the last subsection is particularly bad in terms of failing to explain that this stuff (e.g. energy, momentum of photon, or better yet, of laser pulse) is observer dependent. ---CH 04:44, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Page name
Page moved from Shapiro effect to Shapiro delay per a request on WP:RM. Search on Google Scholar shows the latter term is preferred in academic circles (more strongly than on Google, though there too). Rd232 talk 12:31, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks, Rd232! In fact, Shapiro time delay is the most precise short term which is in standard use, so I

had planned to make that change but hadn't gotten to it. But Shapiro delay is probably good enough. ---CH 15:25, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Time delay and collapsing objects
Whoever wrote that was apparently confusing the Shapiro time delay effect with gravitational redshift in an expanding null congruence from a spherically symmetric gravitating object, apparently even confusing freely propagating light with signals from the interior of a collapsing fluid ball. If that person is upset that I removed the section, I ask that he/she at least study D'Inverno's textbook (which should clarify these points) before trying again. TIA!

This article is still badly in need to a thorough rewrite to improve accuracy, emphasis, and readability, (but still not very on my long personal to do list, unfortunately). ---CH 15:25, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

The Formula was wrong
It was obviously wrong as it gave a negative delta t for not too large angles between the source and the mass. I've changed the definition of the unit vectors into what I remember to be correct, but this needs to be checked. Count Iblis 15:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

 * The formula looks entirely fictitious, at least concerning the term with the natural logarithm. According to Einstein in 1916 the total change in angle is $$2 \frac{R_{s}}{R}$$. From this result one would expect, according to Euclidean geometry, $$\Delta x \approx R_s$$. 84.59.51.31 09:37, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
 * No, really $$\Delta x $$ would be much smaller than $$R_s$$.

Nonsense

 * $$\Delta t = -\frac{R_s}{c} \log(1-\mathbf{R}\cdot\mathbf{x})$$

This equations predicts, the delay becomes infinite if the source is in same direction as the center of mass, obvious nonsense.

 * It is not nonsense. What happens is that the mass is treated as a point mass and the formula is not an exact formula that would still give the correct answer in case the light comes to within the order of the Schwartzchild radius of the gravitating mass. The Shapiro formula is obtained by treating the deflections due to gravity as a first order perturbation in the straight line propagation, and that approximation will break down if the source is exactly behind the mass.

 * So, you see that the formula diverges logarithmically for the angle going to zero. You can interpret that as the gravitational time delay diverging in the limit of infinite gravity. What happens in reality when the source is right behind the mass is different, of course. The light then bends around the mass due to graviational lensing and you then do have a finite delay. Count Iblis (talk) 14:06, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

 * Assume a distant star directly behind a second star (radius R) in distance D. The distance to Earth would be D again. Euclid says

 * $$ \Delta x = 2 \left( \sqrt{D^2 + R^2} - D\right) \approx {\frac{R^2}{D}} = D \times \left(\frac{R}{D}\right)^{2}$$

The equation is incorrect or at least incomplete (not specifying validity interval), because at the time of inferior conjunction (at closest approach of planet Venus to Earth), the ray does not pass arround the Sun at all, but the equation predicts large delay due to small angle between planet and Sun as seen from Earth, being completelly independent on distances of both observer and reflector (planet) and the ray-path from Sun, but this was not measured. In the paper there is a peak in time delay only at superior conjunctions, but no peak at inferior conjunctions. Also the equation gives incorrect results, when pointing away from Sun - at more than 90° between R and x, the delay would be negative?

Due to space curvature, the path is longer, but due to time dilation, the time for the ray to travel is actually longer too, so there would be no observed delay due to space-time curvature, if both space and time curvature radius are same? πα 2016-01-02

Graphical Representation
It could be helpful if someone would draw a sketch with the emitter the receiver and the interfering plantet with vectors and such.Agge1000 06:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Potential versus field
Gravitational time dilation is a function of gravitational potential, not of gravitational field strength. Since the delay can be viewed as an effect of time dilation, it too is a function of potential and not field. The article as currently written is confusing on this point, and should be clarified. Howard Landman (talk) 14:56, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Fabricated quotation
This page had a quotation from an article by Shapiro that did not appear in the article cited. That quotation was replaced with the closest matching sentences from the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PaunchyCyclops (talk • contribs) 17:59, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Garbled equation?
I've added a citation-needed tag for the equation for the delay, \Delta t -- I don't think the expression given can be correct (since it indicates that when R and x are orthogonal -- that is, when the source and the mass are at right angles from the point of view of the observer -- the delay is zero, which won't be the case). I'm loth to change this myself, however, because it may just be that the explanation for the symbols has become garbled (what's there seems ... dubious), and it would be best for the original author of this text to fix it. NormanGray (talk) 22:30, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Please justify this assertion
"moderate strength (say, of stars and planets, but not one of a black hole or close binary system of neutron stars)"... the predictions of Relativity are not subject to this limitation. Either this assertion needs to be justified or removed. The stretching of space between two points due to mass is proportional to the difference in potential energy of the two points. That's it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by McGinnis (talk • contribs) 01:38, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

I find nothing in the literature to suggest the Shapiro effect is constrained to low field conditions. In fact, it cannot be unless the basic logic of conservation of energy and causality, on which relativity depends, are wrong. Unless some sort of logical argument or observation can show the Shapiro effect is not universally applicable, this proviso of "moderate strength" should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by McGinnis (talk • contribs) 18:34, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Any justification for this interpretation? I don't think that whoever wrote this article really has any understanding of Relativity. In a gravity well, space is stretched radially. This is why light is delayed. The light does NOT travel more slowly. The light has a longer path to cover because of the space dilation. Orbital distances are different from what Newton would predict for Euclidean space. But, general relativity has shown us that spacetime about gravity wells is non-Euclidean. Michael McGinnis (talk) 23:02, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

 * I think whoever wrote the article did a good job, considering there is confusion even in the advanced literature on these topics. You say, "light does NOT travel more slowly." While it is true that the proper velocity of light, as measured locally along its path, is constant, the coordinate velocity of light is less than c in a gravitational well. For example, dr/dt<c for a photon emitted radially from a star. This coordinate velocity would be the velocity as judged from infinity. Hence the confusion. Indeed, the Shapiro quote at the top of the article says, "Because, according to the general theory, the speed of a light wave depends on the strength of the gravitational potential along its path . . . " so Shapiro himself said the speed of a light wave depends on potential, and hence varies. Shapiro no doubt meant coordinate speed. Please see section below entitled Is the Shapiro delay due to time dilation or path length increase? Very often in GR, there are multiple "correct interpretations", but we must specify with precise accuracy the meaning of every term we use. 71.32.47.71 (talk) 20:00, 26 December 2018 (UTC)Kathleen Rosser

Why not use a Relativistic explanation?
If the Shapiro Delay is to be interpreted in relativistic terms then the delay can only be interpreted as a lengthening of path. In Relativity, path length is ct where t is the time it takes light to traverse the path. If you want to interpret it as light slowing down, you aren't using Relativity. The reason spacetime is curved in a gravitational field is that it is dilated. As Shapiro shows, the path length is increased. Is this page going to receive review or do I need to rewrite it? Michael McGinnis (talk) 02:10, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

 * You say, "If the Shapiro Delay is to be interpreted in relativistic terms then the delay can only be interpreted as a lengthening of path." This is inaccurate. Time dilation and path length increase contribute roughly equally. Please see section below entitled "Is the Shapiro delay due to time dilation or path length increase?" 71.32.47.71 (talk) 13:40, 27 December 2018 (UTC) Kathleen Rosser

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Is the Shapiro delay due to time dilation or path length increase?
The beginning of the article states, "The time delay is caused by spacetime dilation, which increases the path length." The term spacetime dilation, although accurate, may be unclear (I've never seen it before). Also, the increase in path length is only a partial cause of the delay. The statement would more accurately read: "The Shapiro time delay is caused both by gravitational time dilation and by a relativistic increase in path length." The contributions are roughly equal. This can be seen from the coordinate speed of light in the Schwarzschild metric, which is dx/dt = √(-g00/grr). To obtain travel time t, one solves this for dt and integrates over the path x, where the path is approximated as straight. The fact that g00, which represents the time dilation factor, and grr, which represents the path length factor, are both present means they both contribute. This is clearly laid out in the textbook Gravitation and Inertia by Ignazio Ciufolini and John Archibald Wheeler (Princeton Series in Physics, 1995), pp122-125 71.32.47.71 (talk) 20:35, 26 December 2018 (UTC) Kathleen Rosser

The straight path approximation is incorrect in the first order
The time delay can be split into two different parts:

1) The Shapiro time delay, caused by a variation in the speed of a photon if it is submerged in a gravitational potential. 2) The geometric delay, caused by the increased length of the total light path from the source to the target, which is due to gravitational deflection.

This article focuses primarily on Shapiro time delay and tries to downplay the relevance of geometric delay. It states that: "the contribution from the change in path, being of second order in M, is negligible". The straight path approximation is actually incorrect in the first order. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:1C00:F20:8100:45EF:C2D7:33F9:FF75 (talk) 13:07, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

extra distance

 * which is the extra distance the light has to travel
 * There is NO extra distance "around"!!! The orbit is NOT stretched. Ra-raisch (talk) 20:16, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * If this way is supposed to calculate shorthand a stretching of space radially, this should be mentioned as well as the further procedure which is completely unexplained. Ra-raisch (talk) 19:10, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * After all, I guess, that the subtitle "Time delay due to light traveling around a single mass" is wrong, since light is not going "around" the mass. Maybe the correct title should read "Time delay due to light traveling near a single mass", or perhaps "Time delay due to light round-traveling to a single mass". Ra-raisch (talk) 22:46, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The solution is visible in the article by Friedman as follows: Since the tangential speed of light c'=c°σ is reduced by one shapiro factor σ=√(1-rs/r), the time flow τ = σt also is reduced thus the distance covered is reduced by twice the factor s = c'τ = σ²c°t.
 * $$d\varphi/dt = d\dot\varphi/d\dot t = -\sigma^2cb/r^2$$ Ra-raisch (talk) 10:30, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

 * The explanation of Friedman, which is no longer cited in the article, seems absurd, because c' is not referred to τ but to t. Ra-raisch (talk) 19:35, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Ref.4
Elena V. Pitjeva:Tests of General Relativity from observations of planets and spacecraft is no longer available but at Springer https://link.springer.com/article/10.1134/1.1922533 Ra-raisch (talk) 20:22, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Capital O function definition
Interesting article, but in the Shapiro time delay equation, in the last term of the right hand side, the capital O function should be defined or named. I don't think we mean the Little-O or the Big-O functions. Since here the argument to the O function depends on the small constant (G^2/c^6), the + capital O function perhaps means 'plus a small remainder term that depends on': ((G^2/c^6)*M^2) ? Thanks (Eromana (talk) 21:55, 14 October 2020 (UTC))
 * This of course is the Landau symbol of order of error Big_O_notation. Ra-raisch (talk) 09:47, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Section needs to be fixed «Time delay due to light traveling around a single mass
This section has a formula: $$\Delta t = -\frac{2GM}{c^3} \ln(1 - \mathbf{R}\cdot\mathbf{x}),$$ where R is the unit vector pointing from the observer to the source, and x is the unit vector pointing from the observer to the gravitating mass M.

This formula does not describe the entire time dilation when receiving an echo from a certain planet behind the Sun on the Earth, but only one part of this delay. For example, the formula would be suitable in the case when there is a reflector near the Sun, from which the signal is reflected and returned to the Earth. If there is a planet behind the Sun that reflects the signal back to the Earth, then the total time will be obtained by adding a second analogous term, where the unit vectors should be taken not from the observer, but from the planet. Fedosin (talk) 14:25, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

The meaning of this formula is as follows. Consider the scalar product of unit vectors $$ \mathbf{R}\cdot\mathbf{x} $$. By definition, the scalar product of vectors is equal to the product of the absolute values of the vectors and the cosine of the angle between the vectors. There are unit vectors here, so their length is 1. In the scalar product of these vectors, only the cosine of the angle between the vectors remains. It turns out the formula
 * $$\Delta t_1 = -\frac{2GM}{c^3} \ln(1 - cos \alpha ),$$

where the angle $$ \alpha $$ is the angle between the direction from the Earth to the planet behind the Sun and the direction from the Earth to the Sun.

Let's expand the cosine in the first approximation: $$ cos \alpha \approx 1-\frac {\alpha^2}{2}$$. This gives:
 * $$\Delta t_1 = -\frac{2GM}{c^3} \ln(\frac {\alpha^2}{2}) =\frac{2GM}{c^3} \ln(\frac {2}{\alpha^2}).$$

Since the angle $$ \alpha $$ is small, it can be estimated as $$ \alpha \approx \frac {b}{r_E}$$, where $$ b$$ is the shortest distance from Sun to the line connecting the Earth and the planet behind the Sun; $$ r_E $$ is the distance from the Earth to the Sun. Hence it follows that
 * $$ \Delta t_1 =\frac{2GM}{c^3} \ln(\frac {2 r^2_E }{b^2}).$$

For the movement of the signal from the Sun to the planet and back will be:
 * $$ \Delta t_2 =\frac{2GM}{c^3} \ln(\frac {2 r^2_P }{b^2}),$$

where $$ r_P $$ is the distance from the planet to the Sun. The total time dilation in the first approximation will be
 * $$ \Delta t=\Delta t_1+\Delta t_2 =\frac{4GM}{c^3} \ln(\frac {2 r_E r_P }{b^2}).$$

However, according to Ref.: Logunov A.A. The Theory of Gravity. Moskva, Nauka (2001). ISBN 978-5020226999. arXiv:. https://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0210005 ; See Eq. (12.52), the leading term in time dilation is equal to
 * $$ \Delta t \approx \frac{4GM}{c^3} \ln(\frac {4 r_E r_P }{b^2}).$$

It turns out that the formulas differ, Logunov's expression under the sign of the logarithm is 2 times larger. Therefore the formula
 * $$\Delta t = -\frac{2GM}{c^3} \ln(1 - \mathbf{R}\cdot\mathbf{x})$$

is inaccurate. And there is no reference to this formula yet.

I propose to remove this formula and replace it with the Logunov formula in the form
 * $$ \Delta t \approx \frac{4GM}{c^3} \ln(\frac {4 r_E r_P }{b^2}),$$

which describes in the first approximation the delay of the radar echo from the planet behind the Sun. Here we mean that the delay arises from the curvature of space-time by the gravitational field of the Sun. In this case, not only the length of the signal path changes, but also its speed near the Sun. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fedosin (talk • contribs) 14:54, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

In Ref. Asada H. Gravitational time delay of light for various models of modified gravity. Physics Letters B, Vol. 661 Issue 2/3, pp 78-81 (2008). https://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.physletb.2008.02.006 in Eq. 5 we can find more accurate formula for the main term of delay
 * $$ \Delta t \approx \frac{4GM}{c^3} \ln(\frac { (r_E +\sqrt { r^2_E -b^2}) (r_P +\sqrt { r^2_P -b^2})}{b^2}).$$

Usually $$ r_E $$ much more than $$ b $$ and the same $$ r_P >>b $$. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fedosin (talk • contribs) 05:40, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Fedosin (talk • contribs) 14:32, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Shapiro time delay