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User talk:Ahoerstemeier/Archive 6

Thailand Map
Hello Ahoerstemeier! I'm severely updating the copyvio page on Ko Samui at the moment - take a look at Ko Samui/temp to see how it looks now. I was wondering if you'd be so good as to either lend me a copy of your great Image:Thailand_Mueang_Surat.png so I can place the appropriate dot, or if you would like to do it yourself and add it to the article that would be just great too. Thanks! -- OwlofDoom 06:25, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * Sure, I already saw your rewrite of that article, much better than the first version. I can make a map similar with the one for Mueang Surat Thani easily - however as Ko Samui is also an Amphoe a map showing it within the Surat Thani province would be fitting, but I don't have that one ready yet. So as you asked I guess I will upload the simple one first. And how about a photo of grandmother and grandfather stone? The one I already uploaded to wikitravel:Koh Samui. Maybe tonight... andy

 * Great. Whatever and whenever you like. It is, after all, not my article. *Gets into community sharing spirit* -- OwlofDoom 18:04, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thai fonts
I think what matters most is readability over nice appearance. If the interspace between 2 lines is a bit larger, that's ok. We are not making art. We are informing people. What's the point of writing the names in Thai if it is completely unreadable? Until 2 weeks ago, texts in Thai (and also Chinese by the way) were perfectly readable, but now they have changed the format of pages on Wikipedia (I don't even know why!), and the fonts are smaller (including the Latin fonts). It's ok for Latin fonts, we can still read, but for Thai or Chinese fonts it is ridiculous, we can read nothing. I have the latest version of Internet Explorer, like most people, so the problem doesn't come from my browser. I can assure you that even for Thai people it would be hard to read. Hardouin 23:04, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * If it changed to the worse in the last two weeks then it is probably related with the new skin, so it should be reported in MediaWiki 1.3 comments and bug reports. However as I said I don't see it bad currently, so I will make screenshots later and add them here to illustrate it. If it really displays different on your system then we better let developers hunt for the problem in the css, not change all articles which display the problem - especially if the problem isn't there in all cases. It might be that your browser selects a different font than mine for whatever reason. andy 11:49, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * I now can see the problem as well, on the laptop of my wife which have no additional fonts installed. There it really shrunk to a non-legible size, however also before the switch to the new skin it already was significantly smaller than the normal text - you can see it at http://www.wikinfo.org which hasn't switched to 1.3 yet. The laptop and my workstation use different Windows versions, but I guess the main difference is that on my workstation I have an Arial Unicode font which contains almost all characters defined in Unicode. I will document it all with some screenshots, then hopefully someone can suggest a way to tweak the css to make it look good without that special font as well. Yet I still think we should try to fix the problem with the css, not by tweaking HTML into the wikicode. Strangely the thai wikipedia shows with a good font here... andy 20:38, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

For Thai font there is a tiny difference of size between the old and new version of Wikipedia. For Chinese characters though, the difference is abysmal. Chinese characters before were perfectly fine, but now they are utterly unreadable. And I am a fluent Chinese reader! I have all the Chinese fonts possible on my computer. I don't think I have Arial Unicode though, but I don't believe most people have it. So it is better to make the writings readable for the majority of people without Arial Unicode, in all the languages. Honnestly, even the Latin font is smaller now, which must cause problems to people who have difficulty reading small fonts (not my case, but I am sure it's the case for many people). With the new Wikipedia version, it looks to me appearance and style were favored over comfort, which I totally disaprove of. Anyway, if you know the right person to contact about the unreadable Chinese fonts, please do so. Thanks.Hardouin 23:40, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Redirection to Mukacheve/Munkács
At present there are several articles (Mukacheve, Mukachevo, Mukachiv, Munkacs) redirecting to article Munkács.

My suggestion is to place the main article in Mukacheve and redirect the others to it. After all, the town is located in Ukraine and Mukacheve (Мукачеве) is its official name, while Mukachiv (Мукачів) is the name in Ruthenian, and Munkács (Hungarian) and Mukačevo (Slovak and Czech; Russian Мукачево) are historical, albeit well-known, versions of the name.

Best regards, Thomas, thomasgraz 07:30, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * I wonder why you tell me, as I haven't worked on any of those articles yet. If you want the article to be moved to anyother location, but that one is blocked with a redirect, then you should ask at Redirects for deletion to get it deleted, as that is the official way to go. However for city names there is always the tricky question of what variant is the english name, i.e. the name most often found in english-language sources. So maybe you should put your above rationale to the talk page of that article and wait for some time if anyone contradicts the proposed move, and then go to RfD and have an admin do the actual move. andy 08:21, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * Thanks! I contacted you because you redirected (or altered redirection) from Mukacheve. I am new to this and so don't have experience with the technical details yet. I have placed my suggestion on the Munkács talk page. Let's see what others think. Regards, thomasgraz 10:30, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * Oh really, you're right, I edited it once. But that was just to fix that redirect already created by someone else, something I often do when on Recent Changes patrol, so it's no wonder I cannot remember that edit. andy 11:43, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Amazonas, Venezuela
Hi there. I just moved that article back to Amazonas State -- that title fits in much better the pattern used to name all the Venezuelan states, plus it more closely reflects the local use of almost invariably referring to it as "Estado Amazonas". I can understand your wanting to disambig with the Brazilian state, but perhaps a disambig note at the top of the article would take care of that? I'll put one on now, see what you think. –Hajor 23:58, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * No, I don't think that's the correct way, because both the Brazilian as well as the Venzuelan state are a "state" in english. And a disambiguation note at top of an article should only be used if the topic of the article is the most common meaning - but I don't think any of the two states is more "famous" than the other one. As an opposite example Plateau is the name of three provinces in Africa, but there the main meaning is the most common use of the word. How about Amazonas State (Venezuela)? andy 14:25, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, OK. Cool. Although, as long as the redir from Amazonas State is still active, I'll be tempted to use that if I do any work on the Venezuelan articles. (Afterthought: we could relocate all the Venezuelan states to the very ingrained local use of "Estado Amazonas", "Estado Miranda", etc -- or would that be too radical for the "no Spanish please, this is the English wikipedia" crowd?) Cheers, –Hajor 15:32, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * Shouldn't the redirect point to the Amazonas disambiguation as well? andy 16:18, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Probably should, yes. –Hajor 16:50, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Ayutthaya
Hi Andy. As you know, I'm a great fan of your work on the Thailand articles, but there is one of your edits that I disagree with. When I go to the Ayutthaya page, I expect to find an article on the city, not a disambiguation page. There is nothing ambiguous about the word "Ayutthaya". I fear this will set an annoying precedent, where for example London will become a disambig for "City of London"/"Greater London"/"London forces"/"Jack London"/"London (Canada)" etc. Imagine your favourite city receiving the same treatment.

Would you object if I moved Ayutthaya (city) back to Ayutthaya, and added a line at the top in italics saying ''This article is about the city. For related articles, see Ayutthaya kingdom, Ayutthaya province, Ayutthaya historical park.''? -- Yours in search of encyclopedic perfection, Heron 08:38, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * In general I agree with you, and I don't much object if you would do that move. However as for the provinces the capital (Mueang) has the same name there is always some confusion whether one is talking about the province or the city. For those provinces where the capital is a rather small city Thai usually refer to the province when they don't add "changwat" or "mueang", for those where the capital is big it's more the other way round. For some I did with that disambiguation header you suggest (see e.g. Kalasin), however as for Ayutthaya, Sukhothai and also Phuket there are more than those two meanings interfere it gets more complicated, so for the first two I did with a disambiguation page at top level. andy 08:53, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * To interfere in this discussion. I personally feel Ayutthaya should be a disam... page. As there are so many different meanings. If i talk about Ayutthaya with somebody it could be about either one of them. Not just the city. Same goes for Sukhothai. The Ayutthaya and Sukhothai periods are rather important in the history of Thailand. To just assume one would be talking about the city is a mistake. Waerth 07:14, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)

OK. Perhaps I was oversimplifying the problem. Now that I have made my point, I shall leave the article as it is. Thanks for your opinions, Andy and Waerth. -- Heron 14:31, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Paul Allen
Since the copyvio is still in the Paul Allen page history, do we need to delete and recreate the article? And if so, how can we do that while still crediting all the other contributors? Best, [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 19:48, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * No, I don't think that is really necessary. And if I read it correctly, the new Terms of use is trying to address that problem as well, by claiming only the current version as being fully GFDL, while the history being an archive under US law. There is talking about a feature to delete selected revisions of the editing history to be added to MediaWiki (it is possible by manual database magic by developers already) - especially the German wikipedia thinks they need it, as probably that archive law doesn't apply to Germany. However deleting the complete article and recreate only the latest version would also be a violation of the GFDL, as the previous contributors are then no longer credited. In short - no need to worry :-) But of course: IANAL. andy 20:06, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Excel sheet about Thailand
Recently I downloades your excell sheet and put it on a usb drive to take it home. I noticed that recently you have also been starting to put the Tambon numbers on the province pages. Does this mean that you filled the tambon page on the excell sheet?? Waerth 08:44, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * No, those numbers are from the province page of the sheet - those numbers I extracted from the preliminary census report PDF files from, e.g. . However I have updated the excel sheet already, now it also contains the romanization of the tambon list... andy 09:19, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * I love you ..... And that's got nothing to do with Holland going to the last 8 ;) Waerth 17:42, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * Haha, that's a secret tactic - we try to lure the others in safety, and then surprise all other teams by winning the next world championship :-) andy 18:26, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * ermm I just checked the uploaded xls file on your site, but it is still the old version ..... Waerth 18:02, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, that one should have had those numbers already (columns D,E,F on page 1), as well as the romanized tambon names (column E on page "DOPA"). But anyway, I just uploaded a new one, but I think I just changed one number in the meantime. andy 18:26, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * As usual it was your "friendly Dutchman" whom should have looked better (slamming my head against the wall as punishment). I looked under the "tambon" tab. I didn't immediately realize that the DOPA tab was the one containing all the info ...... Waerth 15:59, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Advertising copy
I'm sorry; I must have put the at the same time that you were deleting the page. >_< -- Grunt 21:16, 2004 Jun 23 (UTC)
 * No, must have been seconds before, because I already saw that notice when I pressed delete. I wonder was happened tonight, there are sooo many junk articles or sub-stubs from anonymous IPs. So keep on the good work of marking them... andy 21:19, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Krishnamurti edit
Hi, I noticed you reverted an anonymous posting (I was not the one who posted it) of an external website link on the Krishnamurti page. I was just curious whether that link was removed for being duplicative or non-informative. (I went to the link and gave a very quick glance; it seemed innocuous enough, so I was curious.) --Gary D 18:15, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * It was a mass-adding of links to the same site, and those I checked just showed a short article about the topic (maybe from Columbia Encyclopedia). However the links didn't add anything to the articles in question, and were probably only added to get a higher google ranking. But if you think that link is helpful, feel free to add it again. andy 18:19, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * No, thank you for your offer, but you obviously looked at the linked site in far more detail than I did. I asked merely because I am still new to this process and, given all the fuss with edit wars, was curious about what sort of considerations go into a revert transaction like this. Thanks for the insight. --Gary D 18:34, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yoshi
Look, I'm sorry that that edit summary had to come up, but there was a glitch with my computer and it was a big mistake I did not intend to make. Sorry for this misunderstanding. Marcus2 11:41, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * Maybe I was too fast to revert as well, I only saw that your last addition was a "TEST", and that doesn't belong into a article... However after I pressed the button I saw you edited more, but then I could not check what else you did, as the editing history didn't show your edits (yet?). But if you re-added the correct part now everything is fine, and keep on editing. andy 11:44, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

once again fuck this go get sum pussy and get money peace out

Article without contents, just interwiki links
I am writing a stub for Kazimierz Badowski. --212.198.100.25 14:06, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)  User talk:212.198.100.25

Adding the amphoes
Hello Andreas, on my computer at my home I have made a start with the first amphoe: amphoe muang Samut Prakan. This amphoe is divided into a number of tambons, now how do I find out which of these tambons form the actual city?? Is there a list of which tambons are combined to fall under the city administration??? I will upload a Dutch and English version tomorrow or the day after. How should I name the English version? amphoe muang Samut Prakan or Samut Prakan district? Also if you like the setup can you than please create a German version of the template, so I can copy the figures in there as well. Waerth 12:22, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Good question. So far I haven't made much difference between the Amphoe Mueang (note the "e" in the romanization according to the royal institute)
 * As far as I know there is no standardized spelling, this one is new for me. I wish they would implement it on roadsigns and in the papers and other publications Waerth 09:06, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * At you can find an online romanization tool which uses that "official" transcription system. IMHO that'd be the best for naming the articles, yet we'd probably need many redirect for the alternative spellings. andy 11:12, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * and the actual city - see e.g. Surat Thani. I am not yet sure about the local administration system (and its reforms) - as far as I read it the Tambon are relatively autonomous - is there any "city administration" beyond that at all?
 * You mentioned the city administration act somewhere, I believe on Pattaya. Waerth 09:06, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * However that one only applies to Pattaya - only Bangkok and Pattaya have a special administrative system (and maybe Pattani will get one in the future), all other have AFAIK only the Amphoe and Tambon administrations. andy 11:12, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Translating it to German is no big deal - however on the German wp there are already articles about all provincial capitals. Those are actually a bit of a mixture of city and province article, yet making a nearly duplicate article for the Amphoe Mueang wouldn't be that good.
 * Great, well I had to start somewhere. So I started with the first amphoe on the excell sheet ..... Waerth 09:06, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * I tried to create a template for a amphoe infobox at User:Ahoerstemeier/Amphoe - however the templates still have some problems (| in parameter impossible, images not working, some links stay red), so all I did with that template yet was to try it in my sandbox. And I haven't yet done any maps yet either. But we can use that infobox as the basis. Anyway, I am curious on what you did write up so far. andy 20:59, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Well, just have a look and comment ...... Waerth 09:06, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * I put it up under: Amphoe Mueang Samut Prakan. It is a bit ugly but we'll get it right. Waerth 09:55, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * OK, I'll work a bit on it as well. Maybe we should put the discussion about that example article in the talk page of that article? andy 11:12, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Ok, but can you move the whole "charade" into a correct namespace. I have abrubtly done a wrong move which I also need to change back on the Dutch wiki. Luckily I am an administrator there, so it is easy....... Waerth 12:59, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I see that you have found my additions already, hell did the Japanese beat us to it ?!? ....... Waerth 15:35, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Also in Nonthaburi the following 2 tambonnames are missing: 12010500 en 12060500. So I only get 50 tambons and not 52 tambons for that province. Waerth 15:40, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * As I don't speak any Japanese I can only guess, but it seems like he added short articles on those Amphoe which have anything special about them - like Phra Samut Chedi which has this temple. But otherwise he is still not finished with the provinces, the North-East isn't done in japanese yet :-) BTW: I added a little comment on Talk:Amphoe Mueang Samut Prakan as well... andy 15:40, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Vandalism
Thanks for the revert. Hyacinth 19:13, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * You're welcome, it's just the normal thing every other Wikipedian would have done. I just hope you don't take that idiot too much personal. andy 19:17, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Typo fixes
Ah, I'm glad you picked up on those 'municipality' typos. The fingers start to think for themselves after typing the same word so many times :) -- Chuq 23:35, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * That one is my favourite typo anyway - I made that one many times until I discovered the right spelling - so I occasionally check if someone else made it as well. And now the search function is reenabled hunting typos has become possible again. andy 11:58, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Wiki Tables
I noticed that you cleaned up the Mumbai 'Quick Look' converting it to Wiki table syntax. Would you be kind enough to do the same for India's page? PS. Is there a significant decrease in page size? Nichalp 20:18, Jul 6, 2004 (UTC)

 * Normally I only do it when I fix anything inside the table, or the table has some problems. It's a bit of work to convert it manually, and usually there should be no difference in the result of the wiki table and the HTML table. The wiki syntax is maybe a bet clearer and easier, but the decrease in page size is insignifcant, except for pages which only consist of table (especially if they are created with MS Word HTML export). Tge country articles will be converted to use a template which contains the table, however the templates still have some infancy problems. Thus it'd be a bit of work-for-nothing to convert the table to wiki syntax first and then to the template later. andy 20:55, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Tong bai krai kriat
The name of the show is Tong bai krai kriat (it would actually deserve a lemma) on channel 3 at 12.00 in the afternoon. It is one of the most popular comedy shows on thai tv! They were shooting a new opening for the show, which will be the start of the program for a year. They invited all the groups/characters that play regularly on the show. So I hope that our group will be invited more often. We are becoming better known every month. We have had major newspapercoverage, been in tv shows and perform regularly. I was lucky that one person dropped out and they had a spot for me .... . The name of our group is Nana chart and it comprises four foreigners and one Thai which makes for a nice situation to make jokes about. Waerth 16:10, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Kings Name
Well, I recomend you to Change the Chakri Kings' names to "Rama I - IX" because Romanization is not stable, also even in Thailand. For example, Buddha Yodfa Chulaloke is used in en:Wiki, but according to the Romanization used in provinces of Thailand Phuttha Yotfa Chulalok seems more correct spelling. Any way, i saw a Thai who write as Bhuttha Yod fa Julaloke. so I strongly recomend you to change the mane. --Ramendra 16:18, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC) or &
 * I know, the romanization of Thai names is a pain, yet there is a recommended romanization scheme - only very few actually use it. But AFAIK the Rama-Names would be wrong as well - as I try to summerize in Chakri dynasty that one was introduced by King Vajiravudh, and abolished again by his successor. Thus we should use the most common english version of the name - which is rather easy for Mongkut, Chulalongkorn and Bhumipol Adulyadej as they are referenced rather often. And of course we have the redirects like Rama IX... andy 16:28, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * I see. I am still not satisfied but seems fair in English wiki. BTW, I heard that Bangkok is not a province but a capital city, therefore never titled Changwat... etc. I am not sure it is ture or not.--Ramendra 15:51, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Katyn Forest Redirect
Thanks for the fix. I is a idiot. -- orthogonal 16:39, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Thanks...
...for reverting vandalism on my user page.--Ëzhiki

Not A Childish Prank
Please not that Wikipedia is not a political saopbox. Redirecting Moron to GW Bush is thus not acceptable, please stop thus childish jokes. andy 21:05, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Hi andy, whilst a perjorative and mischeivious choice of edit, I was not vandalising the page permanently, but making a demonstration to another present of the communities efficiency. I had no idea it would be checked in as little as two minutes though. How is this done? you cannot surely check every edit made, or did you just check this by conicidence Dainamo

 * I was checking the Special:Recentchanges, where I sometimes check the edits made by IPs or apparently new users. Depending on how many users are active on that patrol all or most of the edits gets checked at least once - just like your test. But still vandalism slips through, and I worry it gets more the more popular Wikipedia becomes. andy 21:40, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I'll be in NL
Hey Andy, I'll be in NL from November 24th till December 1st. When did tou plan on coming to BKK? Waerth 13:30, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * We haven't yet finalized our plans, but we will be in Surat on Loy Krathong. So it may be possible that we will be in Thailand when you are in NL - that'd be a bad coincidence. But as we probably will be there for 3 weeks it should be possible to find a possible date, as we will spend some in BKK for sure. andy 14:52, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Loy Krathong is usually around the 14th of november, so we should be able to arrange something before or after that, see if can get markalexander100 to come to BKK?? Waerth 16:15, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * No, it's on 26th this year - haven't you read Loi Kratong? :-) It's always on full moon, thus it's date can move around in all of November. But it'd be good to have a wikimeeting, and don't forget de:Benutzer:Media lib - he already invited me to visit him at Phitsanulok. andy 16:38, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I know it moves around in November, it is just a mindset. Why did you name the article Loi Kratong btw? It should be Loy Krathong (although there are probably 20 other variations of it... ) Ok, we also have Ramendra, the Japanese guy, he seems to live in Thailand also. Waerth 05:49, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * That article isn't by me - I planned to write about it in case I can make a great photo next time. I just discovered it, cleaned it up a bit, and linked it a bit more. I don't know where our japanese friend stays, but if you want to organize a meeting of all Wikipedians affiliated with Thailand you shouldn't forget the users at the thai wikipedia. andy 07:56, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * You give the dates that are possible and we will place a meeting notice in the respective wiki's and with the users. Waerth 19:11, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Follow you, guys.--Media lib 17:46, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Baby k
I restored this article which you listed on Copyright Violations. The original author is the contributor. Do you have further concerns? Rmhermen 15:21, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)
 * The copyright issue was handy, as the article also isn't really encyclopedic in its current state. It needs a major rewrite, deletion of irrelevant section and so on. andy 15:34, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Thai stuff
Sawadee-kap Andy, having just come back from Thailand and being a new enthusiast for all things Thai, I would like to write more articles and will do so as I get time. Do we have articles on Wat Arun, Wat Pho, Wat Doi Suthep, Wat Cheddi Luang or Wat Chiang Man? If not I can do them as I have photos and guide books from all of them. Also the Democracy Monument and the Victory Monument in Bangkok. On Vajiralongkorn, is Maha Vajiralongkorn his full and correct name? I can't find any other versions. Also, is the stuff about his marriage correct. I know Thai sources are very reluctant to comment on such matters, but I'm sure there is more to be said about it. Adam 02:06, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * It is very "dangerous" to write "negative" things about members of the royal family. I live in Thailand and know that making negative marks about the royal family can get somebody into big problems. No matter if it is the truth or not. Theoratically it can result in a block of wikipedia, they are blocking over 10.000 websites in Thailand already, part of them because they are negative about the government etc. For the list search at 2bangkok.com. Contact me through private email if you want and we will discuss it there.

About the other articles great if you can write them, I have read many of your contributions and I think they are great!! Waerth 14:08, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Request to an administrator
Since you are one of the administrators of Wikipedia, I would like to ask you to move the file Liberal Party of Quebec to Quebec Liberal Party, since that is the official translation of the party name. Gangulf 13:56, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Thai royalty
Do you know whether Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn is divorced from his first wife and legally married to his second wife? In that case, are the children of his second marriage legitimate under Thai law? Are they in line to inherit the throne? Who is Vajiralongkorn's legal heir? Adam 00:39, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * To be honest - I have no idea. My knowledge on Thailand's most recent past and current issues is still rather sketchy, I am more familiar with the older past. I guess User:Waerth has more knowledge on the royalty. andy 12:03, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * There is no "law" on Royalties in Thailand besides constitutional matters. You have to take into account that the Kingship is a focal point of the nation. The next heir(ess) will be accepted whoever it will be. --Media lib 17:55, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't make a solid bet on the last part that you wrote. According to my Thai friends people might not be to happy if the current crownprince is the next king. Waerth 17:14, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

hi
thanks for fixing that link on my page. you'r the first person to ever fix something on my page. how did you come across my page? Kzzl

 * Simply because I found that strange article on my New Pages patrol, and after moving the contents to the correct category, deleting the wrong article I also fixed the links to that article (which was just the one on your user page). andy 07:43, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Copyright violations
Hello, currently at the Dutch wikipedia we are discussing copy vio's of pictures. A user (he has been on nl wiki for a long time) claims that edited maps of originals, no matter how significantly edited are still copy-vio's! I threw back to him that that means that all province maps of all countries that we have copied so far from EN wiki are than copy-vio's and should be removed, as all of them are drawn from copyrighted originals. Untill we finish this debate I want to ask you not to upload any of the amphoe maps, if you were planning on that. There are a lot of voices to ditch most of the pictures because they "might" be copy vio's. Even though the pictures have been accepted on other wiki's .... Waerth 15:55, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * Great, same as the German wikipedia enjoys a copyright paranoia on images, as well as an endless discussion on the possibility to include coat of arms there. IMHO (and especially IANAL) for maps there are two points: Of course maps are copyrighted, same as a statistics yearbook. However the base data can't be copyrighted, thus it is possible to extract facts from both sources and built upon that. Thus same as we can use the data from a yearbook, we can also use facts from maps. Cartographers sometimes insert small bugs (a small non-existant island for example) to trace abuse, thus a crosscheck would avoid such problems - yet I think the plain location maps are trivial enough to avoid any copyright problems. While I am not happy with the many "fair use" images here (which in most cases are simply stolen images labeled "fair use"), the opposite paranoia is also bad as it only scares away uploaders. So - just upload those maps to the dutch wikipedia when you feel confident they will be accepted. I get enough edits there by fixing interwiki links. andy 11:48, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Yep, paranoia, my counterproposal has been, "tolerate" all images before day X. And be strict with new pictures. Waerth 17:36, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Are you sure that you are not violating copyrights? It can be a problem even if you do not think so. I want you to be sure because I frequently upload your changwats' graphics.
 * Of course I am not sure (IANAL) - but as a wrote above, the location of borders cannot be copyrighted, only a map which shows them in a specific style. And my maps are far from a a 1:1 copy. andy 16:42, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Suggested Interwiki links
Howdy. You expressed an interest some time ago in a report suggesting new interwiki links between the English and German wikipedia. I've now solved most of the problems involved in generating this sort of thing, and have generated a (reasonably good I believe) sample report, available at User:Topbanana/Reports/An interwiki link is suggested. All feedback welcome. - TB 12:40, Aug 3, 2004 (UTC)

Doping
Hi. I see you're disambiguating "doping". Please note that I've moved both relevant pages to versions with a lowercase letter (i.e. Doping (sport) and Doping (semiconductors). This seems to be general wikipedia policy (although I'd be hard pressed for a source). JFW | T@lk  20:32, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * No problem, the important part was to have the links (and the interwikis which were also partly misguiding) point to the right article. Now changing them to the lowercase version can be done by a robot. andy 07:09, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

reply
ok, thanks for the recommendation. I didn't realize that was the procedure, thanks for correcting me. - Mattingly23 22:29, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the move
Yeah I was wondering how to get stuff there. I figured I'd throw that in and try playing with it in the talk page (didn't know how to move it around), and tried naming it Template:, but it did a s/:/ / on me o.O

Anyway, I'll have to look into how to propose that; I can see users hitting pgdown and yanking a "Warning: SPOILERS AHEAD" to the top of the screen, all those spoilers being read atomically at first glance. ;)

--John Moser 19:16, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Deletions
As per point four of the Wikipedia policy at Deletion_guidelines_for_administrators, please do not include in your deletion summary. It is obviously unnecessary and clutters the deletion log. Thanks. blankfaze | (беседа!)  20:47, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Thailand
If the article is too long it can be split in the middle, that is chronologically, as are History of Australia and History of Greece, for example. I don't think it should be split thematically. People go to encyclopaedias to read narrative history. The Sukothai and Ayutthaya pages should just be redirects to the main article. Adam 01:37, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Finally
Just a quick message to let you know that I finally have internet access in my home. I will be busy the coming two days to configure everything and after that ........ Waerth 06:36, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Arg So sorry
Im very sorry Ahoerster :'( I accidently reverted your photo, I won't bother with the orange hackweed. Sorry againWoofles 17:10, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)

Weimar Timeline
I am sorry about having to revert but this 80.133.56.237 is causing major problems on many sites. And I work from a Library computer and I don't have much time and I had to restore the missing elements without having to retype it all back in. I am sorry and thanks for your re-contribution.WHEELER 16:23, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * I just fixed the broken non-ASCII characters which were accidentally broken by the vandal - the actual fix I wanted to do to that article was the spelling fix of Hilter, but that apparently was in the deleted part. But now you reverted it I simply did it now. andy 16:25, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Somalia map
I saw your map with dotted border for Somaliland, it would be very nice if you could fix up the map to include the border of Puntland/Southwestern Somalia too? --Dittaeva 10:01, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Vandalism on Thai wiki
There was a very bad bout of vandalism on the TH wikipedia Waerth 17:57, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Must have been the same one who blanked several pages two days earlier (nearly same IP). I reverted most of them then, and luckily an admin was around as well who blocked the culprit. andy 18:33, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * I cannot read how long the user was blocked, but it was exactly the same IP address that did it a day earlier. On the Dutch wiki when something like that happens (so many blankings and bad language like F.. Y.. etc.) I usually immediately block them for a month ... I know it is harsh, but I am not a kindergarten teacher. Waerth 18:41, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * The problem is that an IP rarely belongs to exactly one human being. For dialup IPs or a shared IP of an university a longer blocking can block innocents. But maybe as that one returned already despite being blocked a range block with a bit longer timeout (in english the default is 24 hours, that's enough to get rid of the standard vandals) may be valid. andy 18:47, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * I know that, I was blocked from the English wiki a long time ago for a few days because somebody in the internetcafe I used had done some vandalism here. Luckily Andre Engels solved the problem. So I know how it feels. At least you get a decent page with contact possibilities. So if someone wants to edit they can send a mail, but what happened a few nights ago was out of proportion! And in my opinion that warrants a longer block, untill somebody complains in the moderatormail. Waerth 20:51, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Featured article candidate
Hi, I've nominated Isan as a featured article candidate; any comments would be appreciated there or on the article talk page. Thanks, Markalexander100 09:45, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

wikify to a real stubs William H. Tunner and Lucius D. Clay
Thanks for expanding William H. Tunner  and Lucius D. Clay  I had already put in a piece on Daniel Isom Sultan  and Albert Coady Wedemeyer  and had run out of time. My interest over the last couple of days had been the forgotten war of South East Asia Command . I had not realised how much flying the Hump  had benefited the Allies when deciding if the Berlin Airlift  was feasable. But a look at the players who advised Truman shows that it was very important. Philip Baird Shearer 23:39, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Categories for Salamander family
You may have noticed that I got to Amphibians adding categories to the tree of life. I wasn't sure actually which genera and indeed families are newts so please feel free to change things if I what I have done doesn't match common practice - or just let me know what to change and I will be happy to do it. THanks! Pcb21| Pete 17:23, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Maybe I will rename them to the common english names of the families - newt and salamander are both general terms used for mostly aquatic or mostly terrestrial respectively, thus the Salamandrinae are commonly called "True salamanders and newts". But later... andy 17:30, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Etalage
"your" article nl:Changwat has been nominated for the nl:wikipedia:Etalage (brilliant prose on Dutch wikipedia). So far only positive votes. Although I wrote the translation it is still 95% your researchwork, so I think that you are the first user whose article will be brilliant prose on 2 wikis. Waerth 20:30, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Actually the original nomination here was made for the whole project of the province articles, I extended the main article well after it was already on brilliant prose (it was listed on November 28 2003, but I started the history part in March 2004). But anyway, it's great news, and I really appreciate it when my contributions are received so well. andy 20:51, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * I actually did nominate the complete work ... all provinces plus the Changwat page! Waerth 00:22, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

AndyL
I have just about had it with this character. Is he the same as Andy. He has erased a major section of the Weimar Timeline then took the erased stuff and created a new article with my material which could have all stayed in the Weimar timeline. I am furious. The Weimar Timeline can put it all in perspective. The man did no work no research no time except to steal the work. I resent this. And his supposedly "authority" to erase stuff in the Weimar timeline for what reason? There is no reason for this Early Nazi Timeline. He just copied all my work when it can all been included in the Weimar timeline and this new timeline is connected to nothing! What's this man afraid of? WHEELER 00:10, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

 * Actually, I neglected to check the history and just wrote a little in "Much Ado About Nothing" because nothing was there. I hoped someone who knew the play better would fill it in. Stepp-Wulf 03:43, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:Ahoerstemeier/Archive 6


text:
User talk:N1ck

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia!

Here are some tips to help you get started:

 * Try the Tutorial, and feel free to experiment in the test area.
 * If you need help, post a question at the Help Desk
 * Eventually, you might want to read the Manual of Style and Policies and Guidelines.
 * Remember Neutral point of view
 * Explore, be bold in editing pages, and, most importantly, have fun!

Good luck!

[[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]]

P.S. One last helpful hint. To sign your posts like I did above (on talk pages, for example) use the '~' symbol. To insert just your name, type ~~~ (3 tildes), or, to insert your name and timestamp, use ~~~~ (4 tildes).

Images
Please list sources and copyright status on the image pages of images you upload. Thanks! -- Infrogmation 16:04, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Autofellatio
We require verification that Image:Autofellatio.jpg was indeed a user self-created image. The only way to verify the copyright is to ask the original uploader, you, to upload a picture of himself (or the model in the picture), dressed, with a handwritten sign that says something like, "Hi Wikipedia! I hereby release the Autofellatio image under the GFDL." We'd appreciate your cooperation in this matter. -- AllyUnion (talk) 08:24, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * At present, this image is listed as a possibly unfree image, due to the similarity between it and copywritten pornography. Snowspinner 21:01, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:N1ck


text:
Talk:Anand

Wikipedia is not a dictionary. However, dicdefs are not candidates for speedy deletion. Any user can transwiki a dicdef to Wiktionary. If it's not worth moving to Wiktionary, any user can nominate it to Votes for deletion. The allowable cases for speedy deletion are deliberately and carefully limited. Rossami 20:17, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

title: Talk:Anand


text:
Fluoride toxicity

Fluoride toxicity is a condition in which there are elevated levels of the fluoride ion in the body. Although fluoride is safe for dental health at low concentrations, sustained consumption of large amounts of soluble fluoride salts is dangerous. Referring to a common salt of fluoride, sodium fluoride (NaF), the lethal dose for most adult humans is estimated at 5 to 10 g (which is equivalent to 32 to 64 mg elemental fluoride/kg body weight). Ingestion of fluoride can produce gastrointestinal discomfort at doses at least 15 to 20 times lower (0.2–0.3 mg/kg or 10 to 15 mg for a 50 kg person) than lethal doses. Although it is helpful topically for dental health in low dosage, chronic ingestion of fluoride in large amounts interferes with bone formation. In this way, the most widespread examples of fluoride poisoning arise from consumption of ground water that is abnormally fluoride-rich.

Recommended levels
For optimal dental health, the World Health Organization recommends a level of fluoride from 0.5 to 1.0 mg/L (milligrams per liter), depending on climate. Fluorosis becomes possible above this recommended dosage. As of 2015, the United States Health and Human Services Department recommends a maximum of 0.7 milligrams of fluoride per liter of water – updating and replacing the previous recommended range of 0.7 to 1.2 milligrams issued in 1962. The new recommended level is intended to reduce the occurrence of dental fluorosis while maintaining water fluoridation.

Chronic

In India an estimated 60 million people have been poisoned by well water contaminated by excessive fluoride, which is dissolved from the granite rocks. The effects are particularly evident in the bone deformities of children. Similar or larger problems are anticipated in other countries including China, Uzbekistan, and Ethiopia.

Acute
Historically, most cases of acute fluoride toxicity have followed accidental ingestion of sodium fluoride based insecticides or rodenticides. Currently, in advanced countries, most cases of fluoride exposure are due to the ingestion of dental fluoride products. Other sources include glass-etching or chrome-cleaning agents like ammonium bifluoride or hydrofluoric acid, industrial exposure to fluxes used to promote the flow of a molten metal on a solid surface, volcanic ejecta (for example, in cattle grazing after an 1845–1846 eruption of Hekla and the 1783–1784 flood basalt eruption of Laki), and metal cleaners. Malfunction of water fluoridation equipment has happened several times, including a notable incident in Alaska.

Organofluorine compounds
Twenty percent of modern pharmaceuticals contain fluorine. These organofluorine compounds are not sources of fluoride poisoning, as the carbon–fluorine bond is too strong to release fluoride.

Fluoride in toothpaste
Children may experience gastrointestinal distress upon ingesting excessive amounts of flavored toothpaste. Between 1990 and 1994, over 628 people, mostly children were treated after ingesting too much fluoride-containing toothpaste. "While the outcomes were generally not serious," gastrointestinal symptoms appear to be the most common problem reported. However given the low concentration of fluoride in dental products, this is potentially due to the consumption of other major components.

Fluoride in drinking water
Around one-third of the world's population drinks water from groundwater resources. Of this, about 10 percent, approximately 300 million people, obtains water from groundwater resources that are heavily contaminated with arsenic or fluoride. These trace elements derive mainly from leaching of minerals. Maps are available for locations of potential problematic wells via the Groundwater Assessment Platform (GAP).

Effects
Excess fluoride consumption has been studied as a factor in the following:

Brain
Some research has suggested that high levels of fluoride exposure may adversely affect neurodevelopment in children, but the evidence is of insufficient quality to allow any firm conclusions to be drawn.

Bones
Whilst fluoridated water is associated with decreased levels of fractures in a population, toxic levels of fluoride have been associated with a weakening of bones and an increase in hip and wrist fractures. The U.S. National Research Council concludes that fractures with fluoride levels 1–4 mg/L, suggesting a dose-response relationship, but states that there is "suggestive but inadequate for drawing firm conclusions about the risk or safety of exposures at [2 mg/L]".

Consumption of fluoride at levels beyond those used in fluoridated water for a long period of time causes skeletal fluorosis. In some areas, particularly the Asian subcontinent, skeletal fluorosis is endemic. It is known to cause irritable-bowel symptoms and joint pain. Early stages are not clinically obvious, and may be misdiagnosed as (seronegative) rheumatoid arthritis or ankylosing spondylitis.

Kidney
Fluoride induced nephrotoxicity is kidney injury due to toxic levels of serum fluoride, commonly due to release of fluoride from fluorine-containing drugs, such as methoxyflurane.

Within the recommended dose, no effects are expected, but chronic ingestion in excess of 12 mg/day are expected to cause adverse effects, and an intake that high is possible when fluoride levels are around 4 mg/L. Those with impaired kidney function are more susceptible to adverse effects.

The kidney injury is characterised by failure to concentrate urine, leading to polyuria, and subsequent dehydration with hypernatremia and hyperosmolarity. Inorganic fluoride inhibits adenylate cyclase activity required for antidiuretic hormone effect on the distal convoluted tubule of the kidney. Fluoride also stimulates intrarenal vasodilation, leading to increased medullary blood flow, which interferes with the counter current mechanism in the kidney required for concentration of urine.

Fluoride induced nephrotoxicity is dose dependent, typically requiring serum fluoride levels exceeding 50 micromoles per liter (about 1 ppm) to cause clinically significant renal dysfunction, which is likely when the dose of methoxyflurane exceeds 2.5 MAC hours. (Note: "MAC hour" is the multiple of the minimum alveolar concentration (MAC) of the anesthetic used times the number of hours the drug is administered, a measure of the dosage of inhaled anesthetics.)

Elimination of fluoride depends on glomerular filtration rate. Thus, patients with chronic kidney disease will maintain serum fluoride for longer period of time, leading to increased risk of fluoride induced nephrotoxicity.

Teeth
The only generally accepted adverse effect of fluoride at levels used for water fluoridation is dental fluorosis, which can alter the appearance of children's teeth during tooth development; this is mostly mild and usually only an aesthetic concern. Compared to unfluoridated water, fluoridation to 1 mg/L is estimated to cause fluorosis in one of every 6 people (range 4–21), and to cause fluorosis of aesthetic concern in one of every 22 people (range 13.6–∞).

Thyroid
Fluoride's suppressive effect on the thyroid is more severe when iodine is deficient, and fluoride is associated with lower levels of iodine. Thyroid effects in humans were associated with fluoride levels 0.05–0.13 mg/kg/day when iodine intake was adequate and 0.01–0.03 mg/kg/day when iodine intake was inadequate. Its mechanisms and effects on the endocrine system remain unclear.

Testing on mice shows that the medication gamma-Aminobutyric acid (GABA) can be used to treat fluoride toxicity of the thyroid and return normal function.

Effects on aquatic organisms
Fluoride accumulates in the bone tissues of fish and in the exoskeleton of aquatic invertebrates. The mechanism of fluoride toxicity in aquatic organisms is believed to involve the action of fluoride ions as enzymatic poisons. In soft waters with low ionic content, invertebrates and fishes may develop adverse effects from fluoride concentration as low as 0.5 mg/L. Negative effects are less in hard waters and seawaters, as the bioavailability of fluoride ions is reduced with increasing water hardness Seawater contains fluoride at a concentration of 1.3 mg/L.

Mechanism
Like most soluble materials, fluoride compounds are readily absorbed by the stomach and intestines, and excreted through the urine. Urine tests have been used to ascertain rates of excretion in order to set upper limits in exposure to fluoride compounds and associated detrimental health effects. Ingested fluoride initially acts locally on the intestinal mucosa, where it forms hydrofluoric acid in the stomach.

title: Fluoride toxicity


text:
OCP

OCP may refer to:

Computer-related

 * Open/closed principle
 * Open Compute Project, open-source hardware design for scale-out data centers
 * Open Container Project, application containers for ease of portability
 * Open Core Protocol
 * OpenShift Container Platform, an on-premises version of OpenShift from Red Hat
 * Oracle Certified Professional, a designation of the Oracle Certification Program
 * Order code processor, the central processing unit in ICL 2900 and other computers
 * Overcurrent Protection
 * Oxford Concordance Program

Fiction

 * Omni Consumer Products, fictional megacorporation in the RoboCop media franchise
 * Outside Context Problem, a concept in Iain M. Banks's The Culture novels

Organizations

 * Office Chérifien des Phosphates, national Moroccan phosphates company
 * Omni Consumer Products (company), manufacturer of products based on fictional movie items
 * Onchocerciasis Control Programme, a global effort to control the disease Onchocerciasis
 * Opera Company of Philadelphia
 * Oregon Catholic Press, the largest English-language publisher of contemporary Catholic liturgical music
 * Portuguese Chamber Orchestra

Politics and policy

 * Official Community Plan, in Canada, a comprehensive municipal plan
 * One-child policy, in the People's Republic of China

Science and technology

 * Obligatory Contour Principle, a principle of phonological theory
 * Octacalcium phosphate, a biomineral precursor
 * Ocular cicatricial pemphigoid or mucous membrane pemphigoid
 * Open circuit potential, in electrochemistry, an electric potential measured at zero net current
 * Optimal Control Problem
 * Oral contraceptive pill, in birth control
 * Orange Carotenoid Protein, involved in photoprotection against light stress in diverse cyanobacteria
 * Overall coagulation potential, a parameter of the overall hemostasis potential test
 * Overcurrent protection in power supply

Other

 * OCP (film), a performance video project by Mitch Stratten
 * Ocean Park station, an MTR station in Hong Kong
 * Ochre Coloured Pottery culture, a Bronze Age culture in the Yamuna-Ganga region of India
 * Operational Camouflage Pattern, a camouflage pattern used by the U.S. military

title: OCP


text:
James Gambier, 1st Baron Gambier

Admiral of the Fleet James Gambier, 1st Baron Gambier, (13 October 1756 – 19 April 1833) was a Royal Navy officer. After seeing action at the capture of Charleston during the American Revolutionary War, he saw action again, as captain of the third-rate HMS Defence (1763), at the battle of the Glorious First of June in 1794, during the French Revolutionary Wars, gaining the distinction of commanding the first ship to break through the enemy line.

Gambier went on to be a Lord Commissioner of the Admiralty and First Naval Lord and then served as Governor of Newfoundland. Together with General Lord Cathcart, he oversaw the bombardment of Copenhagen during the Napoleonic Wars. He later survived an accusation of cowardice for his inaction at the Battle of the Basque Roads.

Early career
Born the second son of John Gambier, the Lieutenant Governor of the Bahamas and Bermudian Deborah Stiles, Gambier was brought up in England by his aunt, Margaret Gambier, and her husband, Admiral Charles Middleton, 1st Baron Barham. He was a nephew of Vice-Admiral James Gambier and of Admiral Lord Barham and became an uncle of the novelist and travel writer Georgiana Chatterton.

Gambier entered the Navy in 1767 as a midshipman on board the third-rate HMS Yarmouth (1745), commanded by his uncle, which was serving as a guardship in the Medway, and followed him to serve on board the 60-gun fourth-rate HMS Salisbury (1769) in 1769 where he served on the North American Station. He transferred to the 50-gun fourth-rate HMS Chatham (1758) under Rear Admiral Parry, in 1772, in the Leeward Islands. Gambier was placed on the sloop HMS Spy and was then posted to England to serve on the 74-gun third-rate HMS Royal Oak (1769), a guardship at Spithead. He was commissioned as a lieutenant on 12 February 1777, in which rank he served successively in the sloop HMS Shark (1776), the 24-gun frigate HMS Hind (1749), the third-rate HMS Sultan (1775) under Vice-Admiral Lord Shuldham, and then in HMS Ardent (1764) under his uncle's flag. Lord Howe promoted Gambier to commander on 9 March 1778 and gave him command of the bomb ship HMS Thunder (1771), which was promptly dismasted and surrendered to the French. He was taken prisoner for a short period and, after having been exchanged, he was made a post captain on 9 October 1778 and appointed to the 32-gun fifth-rate HMS Raleigh and saw action at the capture of Charleston in May 1780 during the American Revolutionary War. He was appointed commander of fifth-rate HMS Endymion (1779), cruising in British waters, later in the year. In 1783, at the end of the War, he was placed on half-pay.

In February 1793 following the start of the French Revolutionary Wars, Gambier was appointed to command the 74-gun third-rate HMS Defence (1763) under Lord Howe. By faith an evangelical, he was regarded as an intensely religious man, nicknamed Dismal Jimmy, by the men under his command. As captain of the Defence Gambier saw action at the battle of the Glorious First of June in 1794, gaining the distinction of commanding the first ship to break through the enemy line and subsequently receiving the Naval Gold Medal.

Senior command
Gambier was appointed to the Board of Admiralty led by Earl Spencer in March 1795. Promoted to rear-admiral on 1 June 1795, he became First Naval Lord in November 1795. Promoted to vice-admiral on 14 February 1799, Gambier left the Admiralty after the fall of the first Pitt ministry in February 1801 and became third-in-command of the Channel Fleet under Admiral William Cornwallis, with his flag in the 98-gun second-rate HMS Neptune (1797). He went on to be governor and commander-in-chief of Newfoundland Station in March 1802. In that capacity he gave property rights over arable land to local people allowing them to graze sheep and cattle there and also ensured that vacant properties along the shore could be leased to local people. It was around that time that he also bought Iver Grove in Buckinghamshire.

Gambier then returned to the Admiralty as a Lord Commissioner of the Admiralty and First Naval Lord on the Admiralty Board led by Viscount Melville when the second Pitt ministry was formed in May 1804. Promoted to full admiral on 9 November 1805, Gambier left the Admiralty in February 1806. He returned briefly for a third tour as First Naval Lord on the Admiralty Board led by Lord Mulgrave when the Second Portland Ministry was formed in April 1807.

In May 1807 Gambier volunteered to command the naval forces, with his flag in the second-rate HMS Prince of Wales, sent as part of the campaign against Copenhagen during the Napoleonic Wars. Together with General Lord Cathcart, he oversaw the bombardment of Copenhagen from 2 September until the Danes capitulated after three days (an incident that brought Gambier some notoriety in that the assault included a bombardment of the civilian quarter). Prizes included eighteen ships of the line, twenty-one frigates and brigs and twenty-five gunboats together with a large quantity of naval stores for which he received official thanks from Parliament, and on 3 November 1807 a peerage, becoming Baron Gambier, of Iver in the County of Buckingham.

Battle of the Basque Roads

In 1808 Gambier was appointed to command the Channel Fleet. In April 1809 he chased a squadron of French ships that had escaped from Brest into the Basque Roads. He called a council of war in which Lord Cochrane was given command of the inshore squadron, and who subsequently led the attack. Gambier refused to commit the Channel Fleet after Cochrane's attack, using explosion vessels that encouraged the French squadron to warp further into the shallows of the estuary. This action resulted in the majority of the French fleet running aground at Rochefort.

Gambier was content with the blockading role played by the offshore squadron. Admiral Sir Eliab Harvey, who had commanded "Fighting Temeraire" at the Battle of Trafalgar, believed they had missed an opportunity to inflict further damage upon the French fleet. He told Gambier "I never saw a man so unfit for the command of a fleet as Your Lordship." Cochrane threatened to use his parliamentary vote against Gambier in retaliation for not committing the fleet to action. Gambier called for a court martial to examine his conduct. The court martial, on 26 July 1809 on Gladiator in Portsmouth, exonerated Gambier. Consequently, neither Harvey nor Cochrane were appointed by the Admiralty to command for the remainder of the war. The episode had political and personal overtones. Gambier was connected by family and politics to the Tory prime minister William Pitt. In Parliament, Cochrane represented the constituency of Westminster, which tended to vote Radical. In the aftermath of Basque Roads, Cochrane and Gambier quarreled and Gambier excluded Cochrane from the battle dispatches. Cochrane took the unusual move of standing in opposition to parliament's pro forma vote of thanks to Gambier.

Later career
In 1814 Gambier was part of the team negotiating the Treaty of Ghent, ending the War of 1812 between Britain and the United States. He was appointed a Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath on 7 June 1815. Promoted to Admiral of the Fleet on 22 July 1830, he died at his home, Iver Grove in Buckinghamshire, on 19 April 1833 and was buried at St. Peter's churchyard in Iver.

Legacy
Gambier was a founding benefactor of Kenyon College in the United States, and the town that was founded with it, Gambier, Ohio, is named after him, as is Mount Gambier, the city and dormant volcano in South Australia, and Gambier Island in British Columbia, as well as the Gambier Islands in French Polynesia. Gambier appears as a minor character near the end of Flying Colours, a 1938 Horatio Hornblower novel by C. S. Forester.

Personal life
In July 1788 Gambier married Louisa Mathew, daughter of Daniel Mathew, 1718–1777, of Felix Hall, Kelvedon, Essex and St Kitts, West Indies, and Mary Elizabeth Byam, 1729–1814; they had no children.

title: James Gambier, 1st Baron Gambier


text:
User:Thequackdaddy

A really cool guy.

title: User:Thequackdaddy


text:
Talk:X11 color names

Duplicated colors
Some of these are the same color but the names are not. Whose problem is this?? 66.245.78.149 20:23, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * I've just checked the  file on my PC (running XOrg 6.7.0) and it's that way in the original file. (The original file is in numerical order of colour triplets, so it's really obvious.) I'll add a note to the article - David Gerard 12:21, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Visibility?
Some of the colour names are also links to wiki nodes. Names for some of the darker colours are difficult to read, because wiki links are coloured blue. Blue on darkness == bad visibility.

Any idea what could be done to remedy this? What if we duplicate the name, first as plain text and second as a wiki link?

 * Tricky one ... they may be blue but aren't necessarily - David Gerard 16:41, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * To me, the obvious solution is to separate the text from the displayed colors, like this:

 * That way it doesn't matter which colors get linked. - dcljr 06:55, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Indigo? and Other Added Colors
The copies of rgb.txt I have access to (XFree86 4.3.0, Xorg 6.8.1, the X server shipped with Solaris) don't contain an entry for indigo. What is the source of the indigo entry?

 * Same for copies of rgb.txt I have access to: Xorg 6.8.2, XFree86 4.2.1, XFree86 4.1.0, and also Emacs 21.4 and 21.2 (for Cygwin). http://vancouver-webpages.com/DIY/color.html mentions that Netscape and WebTV, but not rgb.txt, have indigo; but that's all the info I could find online about it (other than pages including it in a list of X11 color names). --Mairi 06:29, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Comparing this list to my actual rgb.txt ($Xorg: rgb.txt,v 1.3 2000/08/17 19:54:00 cpqbld Exp $), these eight colors are in the wikipedia article but not in the file: aqua, crimson, fuchsia, indigo, lime, olive, silver, and teal. Furthermore, some colors listed in rgb.txt aren't listed in the article, not including the numbered colors (ie "gray99"). Also, the list doesn't stay consistent with its naming of the grays, while rgb.txt lists both the American English spelling (gray) and the British English spelling (grey) every time that name is used. Clearly, the list presented in the article isn't from an actual copy of rgb.txt. --Jaybeeunix 02:17, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

 * This authorative page lists 140, the WP article has seven more, all of which are gray/grey variants. I am therefore removing the disputed tag, which in any case should have been inserted in the article only after failure to reach a concensus here. Viajero | Talk 17:49, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

 * is not an authoritative page for this article. As the article states, that is “a list of the X11 colors [X11COLORS] supported by popular browsers” (my emphasis added). Thus, that page only purports to be a subset of the X11 colors. The subset nature is more obvious if one follows the link to which the w3c page refers to as the authority of that list. --Jaybeeunix 17:07, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Gamma Correction
Are these gamma corrected? Do they assume they will be displayed on a standard 2.5 gamma CRT or LCD? Otherwise, the values need to go through gamma correction to see the real result (see http://xona.com/colorlist for an example of how FAR off the mark colors can be without proper gamma correction). Also, you can't assume the browser programmers to have thought of this. The standard 6x6x6 = 216 colors 'web safe colors' are an example of where they just don't 'get' gamma correction: Web_colors.137.186.22.189 20:44, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Since this article is about X11 I think it should be noted that the individual X servers (basically the display) have an option to specify one’s gamma correction for his/her hardware. For example, see the -gamma, -rgamma, -ggamma, and -bgamma options in XFree86-like servers. --Jaybeeunix 18:44, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * If the orginal list was given in sRGB and the user has calibrated his monitor properly, then using the original RGB values should yield the result we want. Shinobu 03:12, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I belive list is just list of RGB triples, thus it assumes sRGB. However, before performing real manipulations (like combining multiple colors, doing gradients, introducing alpha channel, or making color darker/brighter) one should convert to linear space for correct math operations. I do not know what CSS spec says about this. --91.213.255.7 (talk) 20:16, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

 * The original X11 colors were based on whatever gamma correction and primary colors were provided on the particular workstation. These varied dramatically from one machine to another. CSS colors are now specified to be sRGB. -jacobolus (t) 22:51, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Table simplification
I've made the following changes to the table: I hope there aren't any major objections; this article has just bugged me for a long time, so I decided to finally do something about it. - dcljr (talk) 00:19, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Removed background color from all text cells so everyone can read the text, regardless of gamma/monitor settings, etc.; only Sample column now shows the colors.
 * 2) Used hex to specify color in "style" attribute (figured this would be the most widely supported, although any browser that knows "style" should be able to handle all three ways of specifying color — another reason I removed color from the other 2 columns). If you know that some browsers/OSs will show different colors depending on how they are specified (name/hex/rgb), please discuss here.
 * 3) Removed a lot of the formatting (font size, text alignment); made color-name cells regular cells rather than header cells; changed "monospace" style to <tt> tags (better browser support, I assume).
 * 4) Linked "Hex" and "RGB" in header (oh, and removed "#" from hex values in that column).

 * I changed the table format to match List of colors. I think the table looks much nicer with RGB values in seperate columns.  However, I also reintroduced bold names, #-prefixes, and some right-aligned text.  I did this mostly for consistency, rather than personal preference.  If you strongly disagree with these changes, the #-prefixes and bold names are easily removed with find-and-replace.  But please consider keeping the RGB values right-aligned.  They're prettier that way.  —Ryanrs 13:03, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Not sure why that would be, but whatever. That's fine. Still looks a lot better than before my last edit. - dcljr (talk) 06:39, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Wonderful work all the way around, but the list was more useful to me when the groupings were by color; e.g., I want to look through the reds, or the greens, or whatever. The Turkish translation still has this arrangement, and I hope it gets kept.  For the English language, I think it's fine to leave what's here as-is, and add another table that's grouped by appearance.  Marc W. Abel 22:25, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I completely agree - wonderful work on the simplified table format - thanks dclrj! Marc - maybe the table grouping by color could be made into it's own page. I would also find that useful. Then you could link that article to this page. --Unixguy 11:37, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Marc - for the table grouped by color, see the Web Colors article. --Unixguy

I would recommend moving hex into a single column: the only reason to have hex there is for copy/paste into contexts where a hex designation is needed; otherwise it’s completely redundant with the decimal representation. Hex should either be scrapped as redundant, or else it should be put into one column where it can be usefully copy/pasted. –jacobolus (t) 23:11, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Khaki
According to Khaki_(color), web kaki is #C3B091 and X11 khaki is #F0E68C. Quote> "This is the color called khaki in X11. This is one of the cases where the X11 color names differs from the HTML/CSS names."

--burga (talk) 21:13, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * That article was wrong, I corrected it. — Christoph Päper 17:27, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

HTML Gray and others are mistaken
Shouldn't the hex (and by extension the numeric value) of gray be listed as 0x808080 for the HTML comparison? Same goes for green, etc. 7F should be 80, right?--61.194.119.130 (talk) 05:30, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

table gone out of control
Hi Crissov. I’m pretty unconvinced that the color names table here needs 21 columns, the first 9 of which are basically 3 numbers redundantly repeated 3 times each. Almost no readers of this article are going to care about most of the subsequent columns, either. I would suggest instead using columns:

 * "8-bit hex" (here meaning 8-bit per component). This is the 6-hex-digit code which will produce the color in HTML or similar. This column need not be broken into 3 parts or sortable, since the ordering is redundantly stored in the next columns.

 * R, G, and B components, as 3-digit decimals, on the range [0, 1]. These are much more intuitively obvious than integers in the range [0, 255], and more precise than integer percentages in the range [0, 100]. The decimal point makes it immediately clear what the number represents, so readers need not scroll up to the top of the table to see the "(%)" in the column header. Another possibility would be to use percentages with one digit of precision after the decimal. In that case I would recommend putting the % explicitly after each number: it doesn’t take that much space.

 * H, S, and L components, the first in degrees [0, 360) with one place after the decimal point, and the latter two as 3-digit decimals in range [0, 1] (or possibly percentages, as w/ RGB). The reason to include H, S, L is that SVG and HTML now support the use of these directly. There's no reason to include HSV, luma, component average, etc., since users need not input these directly, and they are not especially relevant to human vision anyway. They’re included in the example color table in the HSL/HSV article because in that context they are the quantities under discussion, but here they’re just noise.

 * Possibly L*, a*, b* (or even just L*), since these are quantities which *are* (somewhat) relevant to human vision, and would potentially be useful to sort by. L* in particular is a pretty decent proxy for perceived lightness. The CIELAB components here could be computed either relative to D65, as in sRGB, or relative to D50, to match the CIELAB mode used by Photoshop and ICC profiles.

In other words, I would recommend using either 7 columns, or 8, or 10, but 21 is way out of hand.

Also, if columns need to be broken into sections, using narrow empty columns is a bad way to do it, since that breaks up the horizontal lines which allow tracking across rows, and in general looks very busy. If this is really necessary, it should perhaps be done using slight background color differences. I’m not convinced it matters though if the number of columns is kept in check.

Finally, the seemingly randomly bolded entries in the table seem like a bad idea to me.

Cheers, jacobolus (t) 19:04, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

 * I’m fine with combining the hexadecimal RGB representation into one column.
 * How are numbers in [0, 1] inherently more precise than numbers in [0, 100]? Percentages are established here, e.g. in CSS. Sadly, the decimal 8bit values are a standard way to enter, display or store colors, too, so we should probably keep them, but I agree that of all the RGB representations they are the ones to scrap (if any) – they could be moved to the title attribute. Percentages are used pretty much everywhere, except for hue. I don’t know whether you’ve seen it, but until yesterday I had the ‘%’ (and ‘°’) signs inside each cell. I don’t see the point in adding a decimal point and a digit to the percentages.
 * CSS’s inclusion of HSL was my reason to edit the table in the first place. I also added HSV/HSB (where hue is the same), because elsewhere it seems more popular, e.g. in infobox color. HSI (with its differing chroma) is mostly here for completeness (and I don’t remember why I put ℙs in there), also because it differs from HSL stronger than HSV. Y′601 can safely go. As far as I know, HVC and HLC are sometimes used, but the HSI chroma may go.
 * I actually only accidentally saved the bold highlights for multiples of 30° and 25%.
 * Empty cells spanning the whole column are the easiest and most reliable way to simulate  in Mediawiki. They may break sorting, though, but   does too. But I probably don’t notice drawbacks as much, because my user stylesheets include CSS row highlighting.
 * L*a*b* (lightness) might be useful, but I didn’t have a simple formula at hand the other day.
 * I wish columns were collapsible, but no admin implemented that. — Christoph Päper 11:53, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * {| class="wikitable sortable" style="margin-left:3em"

! Color name !class="unsortable"| Sample ! RGB16 !title="red"| R10 !!title="green"|G10 !!title="blue"|B10 !title="red"| R (%) !!title="green"|G (%) !!title="blue"| B (%) !title="chroma"| C (%) !title="hue"| H (°) !!title="saturation"| S (%) !!title="lightness"| L (%) !title="hue"| H (°) !!title="saturation"| S (%) !!title="brightness or value"| B, V (%) !title="chroma"| C (%) !title="hue"| H (°) !!title="saturation"| S (%) !!title="intensity"| I (%) ! Alice Blue
 * rowspan="2" class="unsortable"|
 * rowspan="2" class="unsortable"|
 * rowspan="2" class="unsortable"|
 * rowspan="2" class="unsortable"|
 * rowspan="2" class="unsortable"|
 * rowspan="2" class="unsortable"|
 * bgcolor="#F0F8FF"|
 * #F0F8FF
 * 240 || 248 || 255
 * 94 || 97 || 100
 * 6
 * 208|| 3 || 97
 * 208|| 6 || 100
 * 5
 * 208|| 3 || 97
 * }
 * {| class="wikitable sortable" style="margin-left:3em"

! Color name !class="unsortable"| Sample ! RGB16 !title="red"| R (%) !!title="green"|G (%) !!title="blue"| B (%) !title="chroma, hover for differing chroma for HSI"| C (%) !title="hue, hover for differing hue in HSI"| H (°) !!title="saturation"| SL (%) !! SB (%) !! SI (%) !!title="lightness, hover for differing intensity in HSI"| L, I (%) !!title="brightness or value"| B, V (%) ! Alice Blue
 * bgcolor="#F0F8FF"|
 * #F0F8FF
 * title="240"| 94 ||title="248"| 97 ||title="255"| 100
 * title="5"| 6
 * title="="| 208|| 3 || 6 || 3 ||title="="| 97 || 100
 * }
 * {| class="wikitable sortable" style="margin-left:3em"

! Color name !class="unsortable"| Sample ! RGB16 !title="red"| R !!title="green"| G !!title="blue"| B !title="hue"| H !!title="saturation"| S !!title="lightness"| L / B !title="chroma"| C !title="hue"| H !!title="saturation"| S !!title="intensity"| I !title="chroma"| C ! Alice Blue
 * rowspan="2" class="unsortable"|
 * rowspan="2" class="unsortable"|
 * rowspan="2" class="unsortable"|
 * bgcolor="#F0F8FF"|
 * #F0F8FF
 * 240 94% || 248 97% || 255 100%
 * 208°|| 3% 6% || 97% 100%
 * 6%
 * 208°|| 3% || 97%
 * 5%
 * }
 * {| class="wikitable sortable" style="margin-left:3em"

! Color name !class="unsortable"| Sample ! RGB16 !title="red"| R !!title="green"| G !!title="blue"| B !title="hue"| H !!title="saturation"| S !!title="lightness"| L !title="chroma"| C ! Alice Blue
 * bgcolor="#F0F8FF"|
 * #F0F8FF
 * title="240"| 94% ||title="248"| 97% ||title="255"| 100%
 * title="HSI: 208°"| 208°||title="HSV: 6%, HSI: 3%"| 3% ||title="B/V: 100%, I: 97%"| 97%
 * title="HSI: 5%"| 6%
 * }

 * Okay, I really dislike your idea of showing multiple different quantities in a single column, just hidden away in a title attribute. However, showing alternate forms of the same quantity in a title view seems reasonable enough. Notice how your first few suggested tables here are really long and complicated but without any extra information likely to be useful to readers. We should chop those bits out. My suggestion would be something like the following:
 * {| class="wikitable sortable"

! class="unsortable" style="width:4em"| ! Name ! class="unsortable" | 8-bit hex !title="sRGB red"|R !!title="sRGB green"| G !!title="sRGB blue"| B !title="HSL hue"| H !! title="HSL saturation"| S !! title="HSL lightness"| L
 * bgcolor="#F0F8FF"|
 * Alice Blue
 * #F0F8FF
 * title="240/255"| .941 ||title="248/255"| .973 ||title="255/255"| 1.000
 * 208.0° || 100.0% || 97.1%
 * }
 * Or perhaps (with some space to reduce the claustrophobic clutter):
 * {| class="wikitable sortable" style="text-align:right;"
 * {| class="wikitable sortable" style="text-align:right;"

! class="unsortable" style="width:4em; text-align:center;" title="color sample"| ! style="text-align:center" | Name ! class="unsortable" style="width:5em; text-align:center" | 8-bit hex !title="sRGB red" style="width:3em; text-align:center"|R !title="sRGB green" style="width:3em; text-align:center"| G !title="sRGB blue" style="width:3em; text-align:center"| B !title="HSL hue" style="width:3.5em; text-align:center"| H ! title="HSL saturation" style="width:3.5em; text-align:center"| S ! title="HSL lightness" style="width:3.5em; text-align:center"| L
 * bgcolor="#F0F8FF"|
 * style="text-align:left"| Alice Blue
 * style="text-align:center" | #F0F8FF
 * title="240/255"| .941 ||title="248/255"| .973 ||title="255/255"| 1.000
 * 208.0° || 100.0% || 97.1%
 * bgcolor="#FAEBD7"|
 * style="text-align:left"| Antique White
 * style="text-align:center" | #FAEBD7
 * title="250/255"| .980 ||title="235/255"| .922 ||title="215/255"| .843
 * 34.3° || 77.8% || 91.2%
 * bgcolor="#6495ED"|
 * style="text-align:left"| Cornflower
 * style="text-align:center" | #6495ED
 * title="100/255"| .392 ||title="149/255"| .584 ||title="237/255"| .929
 * 218.5° || 79.2% || 66.1%
 * }
 * title="100/255"| .392 ||title="149/255"| .584 ||title="237/255"| .929
 * 218.5° || 79.2% || 66.1%
 * }

 * It’s just as well they don’t have collapsible columns. Sounds like a usability nightmare.
 * The goal here should be to (1) cut out as much redundant information as possible, while keeping those bits which are likely to be useful to many users (“completeness” as an abstract concept is decidedly not the goal, or we could include 100 extra columns for each of these), (2) present the whole thing in as clean and uncluttered a fashion as possible.
 * –jacobolus (t) 14:29, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

 * Like I said, there’s no reason to use floats for RGB (or anything else). They’re even wider than the percentages, at least once you add the missing leading zero.
 * Three significant digits suggest more precision than there is and will probably reveal (more) rounding oddities that are not helpful.
 * is probably better than just.
 * I don’t care about “Color name”/“Name” or “Sample”/“Color” (nor their order), but the caption for hex triplets should say that it is RGB. It indeed doesn’t have to be sortable.
 * Never use  but  . Specifying column width would be the last thing to take care of.
 * “sRGB” in the title attributes is unnecessary, and so is “HSL” (if there’s only RGB and HSL).
 * I’m leaning towards preferring my second table layout above, with the first two colums of your first layout and explanatory text. How about leaving out ‘%’ completely and only adding ‘°’ to hues?
 * Anyhow, I just found the bug in my script that resulted in wrong saturation values for HSL, often equal or similar to those of HSI (like 3% for Alice Blue instead of 100%). — Christoph Päper 17:17, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * {| class="wikitable sortable collapsible"

!class="unsortable nocollapse"| !class="nocollapse"| Color ! RGB16 !title="red"| R !!title="green"|G !!title="blue"| B !title="chroma for HLC and HVC/HBC, hovering reveals chroma for HIC if different" class="collapsible"| C !title="hue, hovering reveals hue for HSI if different"| H !title="saturation for HSL"| SL !title="saturation for HSV/HSB" class="collapsible"| SV !title="saturation for HSI" class="collapsible"| SI !title="lightness for HSL and intensity (I) for HSI, hovering reveals intensity if different"| L !title="brightness (B) or value for HSB/HSV" class="collapsible"| V ! Alice Blue
 * bgcolor="#F0F8FF"|
 * bgcolor="#F0F8FF"|
 * #F0F8FF
 * title="240/255"| 94 ||title="248/255"| 97 ||title="255/255"| 100
 * title="5"| 6
 * title=""| 208° || 100 || 6 || 3 ||title="I=L"| 97 || 100
 * }
 * Okay. There are no floats anywhere here. This is all decimals at some definite precision. I just prefer 3 digits of precision to 2, and prefer using a '.' at the front to a '%' at the end. Since most elementary school students are extensively trained in the decimal system, Wikipedia’s readership should be perfectly capable of reading decimal numbers in a table. A list of further comments:
 * The symbols SL, SV, and C are not typical, and using them without further explanation (no, a link isn’t good enough) is a bad idea. The quantity C is used in the HSL and HSV article because it explains the derivation and helps relate the various quantities to each-other, but the use of words “chroma” and “saturation” is so variable among sources that it’s a bad idea to adopt that article’s naming conventions in places where they aren’t explicitly described (e.g. here). SI is such a rarely seen quantity (and usually in conjunction with a different definition of hue than the one used in HSL/HSV) that it’s a bad idea to list it here: it just leads to confusion.
 * There’s no need to include HSV in the table. Both HSL and HSV are terrible models which should be avoided to the extent possible (I say this having mostly written HSL and HSV), but HSL might as well be included since it is used by the web browsers themselves. But one of the two is more than enough. If we want other color descriptions we should use Munsell, CIELAB, CIECAM02, or similar.
 * There’s no reason to make the hex value column sortable. The sorting of that column is redundant to sorting on R, G, B columns, and trying to sort by it will in practice only sort by R, which is confusing for users.
 * Using both a link in the heading and a title attribute on the cell is self-defeating, because the wiki-link’s mouseover text will clobber the cell’s.
 * I don’t care whether the color names are in TH elements or TD elements, but there’s no good reason to make the text bold (it's just a distraction), and it should be left-aligned.
 * Any values which are percentages should have the percent sign explicitly written in the cells. To leave it out or put it at the top adds mental overhead for little gain.
 * There are a couple reasons for using an 3 digits of precision. (1) There are about 2½ digits worth of precision in the original data range log10(256) = 2.4, so only using 2 digits of precision is leaving off data. But anyway, these colors are defined to be these precise values, and so even in higher-precision output systems (>8 bits/channel) they are exactly reproducible. (2) There are on average about 2 and a half 8-bit numbers per integral percentage. To make these sort properly, 2 digits of precision are insufficient. In the case of HSL “lightness” (or other similarly motivated quantities) this is especially important in my opinion, since all of the components’ values contribute to this, making it effectively more finely tuned than individual RGB components. (3) It really isn’t any harder to read the table with an extra digit on these, since users should understand the decimal system pretty well, and can read from left to right (which means they should easily understand that ".358" is "about 36%").
 * I don’t think it’s helpful to include a “hide” link to collapse the table. That’s just a distraction.
 * RGB16 is not a meaningful label. "Hex triplet" would be an okay label, but I personally think 8-bit hex is clearer. As for the “RGB” part. All of these quantities (R, G, B, hex, H, S, L) are just as dependent on “RGB” – or in this case specifically sRGB. Users will either recognize the #FFFFFF form, or click the link and figure out what a hex triplet is, or else ignore that column.
 * All the numeric columns should be right-aligned.
 * –jacobolus (t) 20:06, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I’ve changed the table to use Colort like List of colors does. — Christoph Päper 00:15, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I like some of your improvements to the Colort template quite a bit. I wonder whether changing that template will tick off editors on other pages where it appears though. I’d edit the Colort template some myself, but changing templates which are used multiple places is always a bit of a touchy subject. –jacobolus (t) 01:34, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

┏━━━━━━━━━━━━┛ Since we’re apparently using fixed column widths here, we can probably actually get around the restriction on using colspan within a sortable table, by just stacking another table on top with a row of labels for multiple-column combined headings. Then we can put RGB (or perhaps sRGB), HSL, HSV column-spanning headings, and then simplify the column labels themselves to R, G, B, H, etc., and put the sorter widgets in-line next to those (and also get rid of the redundant links on every one of them). –jacobolus (t) 01:48, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * No nested tables please. — Christoph Päper 13:57, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Also, it’s IMO a bad idea to get rid of the border around the color sample itself (by making it the border), because (1) the color seen by the human eye is dramatically affected by nearby and especially adjoining colors, and providing the little gray gap between each color reduces this effect a fair bit, and (2) not having the horizontal lines go all the way across reduces the visual coherence of the table. –jacobolus (t) 01:55, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * It’s a drawback, yes, but a minor one in my opinion. If you sort the table you get different adjoining colors. — Christoph Päper 13:57, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you explain the benefit of making the color the border color instead of putting it in its own cell? I think the latter would be substantially better. –jacobolus (t) 17:54, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Also, I’d get rid of the bold on the color names, though they could certainly remain TH elements. –jacobolus (t) 01:58, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Let row headers be handled by sitewide or user stylesheets. — Christoph Päper 13:57, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
 * That's nonsense. 99.9% of users will get a worse design that way, and anyway most people probably want bold THs in most cases (i.e. for column headings) so the site-wide settings will be forced to be wrong for these color names. Basically, reasonable alternatives for this table are (1) use TD elements for the color names, or (2) use TH elements but make sure the text is left aligned and regular weight. I'm starting to favor (1) but I think (2) would be acceptable. Leaving the cells bold and horizontally centered is not acceptable. –jacobolus (t) 17:56, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

We should be able to calculate R, G, and B from the provided hex, and cut down on the things users need to enter for a color. For example, if we have the color #74DAF4, then its hex is 74DAF4, and we can do: And in fact, those would probably work best if we just made a templates for them, hexcolor2red, hexcolor2blue, hexcolor2green, etc. –jacobolus (t) 02:40, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * red =  00  → 00 ,
 * green =   → ,
 * blue =   → ,
 * etc.
 * Okay, I’ve added these, hexcolor2red, hexcolor2green, hexcolor2blue, and so you do <tt><nowikI> </tt> and you get, etc. –jacobolus (t) 19:15, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Using the intransparent “hex triplet” as base seems awful. I’d prefer percentages or floats, but even 8bit decimal integers are better than hex triplet. — Christoph Päper 13:57, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Seems awful why? The point is to simplify writing: the colors are generally defined in terms of the hex triplet, and it's not like people are going to be reading the raw source to find out what the R, G, and B components are. –jacobolus (t) 17:59, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

I just noticed, there’s actually quite a problem with using the result of using the RGB2HSL templates, and then rounding the results from those. Because those are numbers rounded to 3 digits, rounding a second time leads to incorrect rounding in some cases (e.g., 0.0045… rounds to 0.005 which rounds to 0.01, instead of the proper 0.00) We should either use the 3-digit rounding provided by the template, or else make a new template that rounds to 2 digits of precision. –jacobolus (t) 02:50, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I wouldn’t call that “quite a problem”. The templates could be improved, though. (New ones are not needed.) — Christoph Päper 13:57, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
 * How would the templates be improved then? By adding a "precision" input or so? –jacobolus (t) 18:01, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Why is here the CSS3 color table? The X11 table in wiki code can be found here (since 2004).--Perhelion (talk) 20:38, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Coloring of color values
The numeric values for colors mentioned in the text of the article are currently displayed in the color they describe. Should they be? This doesn't strike me as something that should occur in the main text of an encyclopedia article, and it certainly doesn't help readability. —71.196.83.53 (talk) 08:24, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The article now uses color sample instead of color in prose. — Christoph Päper 12:09, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

LaserLemon vs LightGoldenrodYellow
Disregard my original comment. I see that "LightGoldenrodYellow" has been shortened to be "LightGoldenrod" in the table, and "LaserLemon" has been added to the table. Why? LaserLemon is not listed in the CSS level 3 spec. Sprokofiev (talk) 01:41, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Removed the WhiteSmoke redirect
I removed the the following, as WhiteSmoke (Virus) is now a redlink. Tony Mach (talk) 21:36, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
 * You left it in a comment. I removed that, too. — Christoph Päper 11:54, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, OK! Tony Mach (talk) 12:54, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Full Circle
The circle is almost complete X11 -> SVG + HTML colors -> CSS -> X11. Though the server no longer uses the rgb.txt file, but uses a builtin hardcoded database instead which hasn't yet been updated. Sounds like this will happen after 1.16. PaleAqua (talk) 03:39, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

abridged and rationalized
So who is abridging and rationalising? And hence isn't that self publishing and a POV? The article is X11 not W3C, so shouldn't the list BE THE LIST, THE X11 list. W3C references should be in w3C articles. If someone want a list of X11 colours supported by browsers, put that list in an article re browser colour support. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mimarx (talk • contribs) 06:18, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * ✅ — Christoph Päper 10:40, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Numbered variants

 * }

I wanted to include a sample table for the numbered variants (and did), when I discovered that with colort/color you can clearly see that they are the result of value or brightness variation in HSV/HSB notation in a constant manner. Hues are sometimes slightly off, though. I didn’t want to include another colort table, though, because these templates are expensive and the page is already loading slowly.

Has this been documented somewhere so we could reference that and rewrite the section? — Christoph Päper 10:17, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

 * See my links in the full circle section above which has links to the source definition files. The current version of X11 has them in rgb.txt at, though these days they are built into the server as seen at . PaleAqua (talk) 02:27, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I was asking for a reference (i.e. reliable source) for the brightness values of color variants. The source code is quiet on that. — Christoph Päper 10:11, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The variants got added by Paul Raveling . See also the README which talks about the 4 variants and raveling.txt which got merged into RGB text. PaleAqua (talk) 21:29, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see, thanks. It seems, though, that not all of raveling.txt made it into rgb.txt. — Christoph Päper 15:22, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, and the variants got removed ( for performance reasons ) and later readded at the end. Also, some of the base colors got changed ( often somewhere between thomas.txt and raveling.txt ) wthout the variants being updated. I believe variants follow a highest RGB coordinate being 255, 238, 205, and then 139 from 1 to 4 and the rest of the RGB coordinates scaled relatively to the highest. PaleAqua (talk) 19:53, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

 * }

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 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20070928030522/http://cvsweb.xfree86.org/cvsweb/xc/programs/rgb/rgb.txt.diff?r1=1.2&r2=1.1 to http://cvsweb.xfree86.org/cvsweb/xc/programs/rgb/rgb.txt.diff?r1=1.2&r2=1.1

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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 13:33, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

"Gainsboro"? "BurlyWood"? What are these things?
Where do these names originate? Equinox ◑ 18:29, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

 * The two you list were referenced from Sinclair Paints swatches by Paul Raveling, as were several others.
 * The rest of the names were mostly either referenced from Crayola crayons by John Thomas, or present in Jim Gettys' original version of the file (not known what he was referencing).
 * I refer you to Alex Sexton's seminar on the origin of X11 and web colour names for further information.
 * (For reference: original version, with Raveling edits, with Thomas edits, current version.)
 * -- HarJIT (talk) 20:28, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
 * (For reference: original version, with Raveling edits, with Thomas edits, current version.)
 * -- HarJIT (talk) 20:28, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
 * -- HarJIT (talk) 20:28, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
 * -- HarJIT (talk) 20:28, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

And «hazelnut colour»?
Why isn't the hazelnut colour in this article?

https://color.adobe.com/hazelnut-latte-color-theme-688428/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Krotzpyn (talk • contribs) 19:13, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

 * Because it's not in rgb.txt and hence not an X11 colour name. This article is about the X11 colour names, not colour names per se. -- HarJIT (talk) 08:25, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

"Dark Grey" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Dark Grey and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 March 14 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Q28 (talk) 05:30, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Link to Gitgub is dead
The link to modern rgb.txt is not valid. Freedesktop project has moved to Gitlab 2A01:112F:430C:E00:7035:808E:3F3E:24FB (talk) 13:28, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Mistake: Orange and Orange Red RGB Values
Orange     #FFA500 Orange Red #FF4500

show the same RGB value so one must be wrong. Perhaps someone could check all of the displayed RGB values against an installed rgb.txt file. Thanks for your efforts :o). GeneThomas2 (talk) 21:34, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Whilst the R and B components are the same, the G components are different - A5 and 45 respectively. In which section do you see the same values for the two? -- Red rose64 🌹 (talk) 14:25, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
 * My mistake. GeneThomas2 (talk) 00:56, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:X11 color names


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