text:
Huang Yuanyong

Huang Yuanyong  (黃遠庸), (Pen name: Huang Yuansheng 黃遠生, Wade-Giles: "Huang Yüan-yung") (15 January 1885 – 25 December 1915) was a renowned Chinese author and journalist during the late Qing dynasty (清朝) and early Republic of China (民國初年). Huang made significant contributions to journalism and literacy in China, particularly as an innovator in both journalistic methodology and writing style. His unsolved assassination while visiting San Francisco, California, United States, was suspected of having been a KMT operation.

Early life
Huang Yuanyong (Given name: Huang Weiji 黃為基) was born to an educated family in Jiujiang (九江), Jiangxi Province (江西省) in China. His father was a scholar and an officer in charge of foreign affairs in Ningbo (寧波), and a number of his family members were government officials. Influenced by his family, Huang immersed himself in Chinese classics when he grew up. To improve his English, his family hired a foreign tutor to teach him the language.

Huang completed secondary schooling in the Zhejiang (淅江) province. During his studies at Zhejiang Huxing Nanxun Government School (浙江吳興南潯公學), he was involved in educational reform campaigns and became a member of the Progressive Party (進步黨). In 1903, Huang came in seventh place in the regional examination in Jiangxi (江西). Nevertheless, the 19-year-old Huang did not follow the custom of becoming a government official, instead continuing his legal study at Chuo University in Tokyo, Japan. Six years later, he returned to China and started working at the Civil Postal Department (郵傳部). Later on, he became a journalist and worked for several different papers and news agencies. Huang was particularly famous for his discussions of politics and social issues.

Background
Following the collapse of the Qing emperor, Huang ceased his work as an officer in the new government of the Republic of China. Li Shengduo (李盛鐸), one of the Beiyang five ministers (北洋五大臣), played an influential role for Huang. He advised Huang to enter journalism, saying that "In western countries, the majority of journalists are familiar with history and international affairs. If you choose to work in this field, there is no doubt you will become a famous reporter." After receiving Li's advice, Huang began his career as a journalist.

Huang soon won recognition for his abilities as a journalist. In 1912, the founding year of the Republic of China, Huang, Lan Gongwu (藍公武) and Zhang Junmai (張君勱), who were known as "The trio of youth for modern China" (新中國三少年), first published Shao Nian Zhong Guo Weekly 《少年中國周刊》 to criticise politics. Later on, Huang and two other young journalists, Liu Shaoshao (劉少少) and Ding Foyan (丁佛言), were entitled '"The outstanding trio of journalism" (新聞界三傑).

Huang was also regarded as "The first genuine reporter in the modern context in China" (中國第一個真正現代意義上的記者) and his Yuansheng Tongxun (遠生通訊), a special column of news dispatch, became the most popular and famous brand in Chinese journalism.

Contribution to newspapers and Magazines
Huang's first job was to write articles for the Ya Shi Ya' Daily News (亞細亞日報) in Shanghai. The positions at newspapers and magazines that he later served include:

 * Shen Bao (申報) - newspaper reporter
 * Shi Bao (時報) - newspaper reporter
 * Dong Fang Daily News (東方日報) - newspaper reporter
 * Shao Nian Zhong Guo Weekly (少年中國周刊) - founder and magazine editor
 * Yong Yan (庸言) - magazine editor
 * Dong Fang Magazine (東方雜誌) - writer
 * Lun Heng (論衡) - writer
 * Guo Min Gong Bao (國民公報) - writer

With his academic background and working experiences, Huang took up a number of roles in the field. He worked as a chief editor (主編), an appointed regional reporter in Beijing (駐京記者) and Shanghai, and a freelance article writer (自由撰稿人). He was well known for being diversified and productive. In 1915, Huang's clash with Yuan Shikai (袁世凱) eventually cost him his job. The news of Huang being shot to death in the United States shortly after his arrival shocked the press and literary circles of China.

Publications
Among Huang's publications,Yuansheng yi zhu 《遠生遺著》 is a collection which consists of 239 pieces of his posthumous articles. It was published by Huang's friend, Lin Zhijun (林志鈞), after Huang's death in 1919. From 1920 to 1927, four editions of this book were published by the Commercial Press of Shanghai (商務印書館，上海). It was the first collection of news articles in Chinese publishing history. Huang's articles included news reporting, political analysis, and the like. The majority of Huang's articles were reports of major events and influential people in the turbulent politics of China at the time.

His publications on political issues include:
 * A Warning to the Trio Superpower 《對於三大勢力之警告》
 * An Overview of Current Politics 《最近之大勢》
 * Astray Official 《官迷論》
 * Conflict between Traditional and Contemporary Thoughts 《新舊思想之衝突》
 * New Year in Beijing 《北京之新年》
 * Three Days' Astronomy 《三日觀天記》
 * The Chef of the Ambassador 《外交部之厨子》

His other publications include:
 * My Confession 《懺悔錄》
 * Introspection 《反省》
 * Passive Optimism 《消極之樂觀》

As a journalist, he interviewed many important figures of the time, including:
 * Sun Yat-sen  (孫中山)
 * Huang Xing  (黃興)
 * Song Jiaoren  (宋教仁)
 * Chang Taiyen  (章太炎)
 * Cai Yuanpei (蔡元培)
 * Yuan Shikai (袁世凱)
 * Li Yuanhong (黎元洪)
 * Tang Shaoyi (唐紹儀)
 * Lu Zhengxiang  (陸征祥)
 * Zhao Bingkwun  (趙秉鈞)
 * Xiong Xiling  (熊希齡)
 * Duan Qirui  (段祺瑞)

Huang reported on many important events in China. For example:
 * The assassination of Song Jiaoren (宋教仁被剌殺)
 * The resignation of Yuan Shikai (袁內閣兩次倒台)
 * The signing of The Twenty-One Demands (喪權辱國的二十一條)
 * The resignation of Tang Shaoyi (唐紹儀請辭)

Clash with Yuan Shikai
Huang initially supported the creation of the Republic of China under Yuan Shikai's leadership. However, the new government became a great disappointment to Huang. He felt that despite the Progressive Party's rhetoric it was still a corrupt organization.

In the articles entitled Big Loan Incident (大借款事件) and The Twenty-One Demands (喪權辱國的二十一條), Huang described Yuan's alleged secret deals with foreign powers and betrayal of the nation's interest for his own sake. Huang once described the status of the government as "idealess, dead-ended and hopeless" (無理想, 無解決, 無希望的政府). However, what most upset Huang was the threat to the freedom of the press that he felt Yuan represented. Under Yuan, journalists were prohibited to attend political meetings (政治會議) and the censorship of newspapers also became the custody of the Police Authority (警察官署).

Between 1912 and 1916 Yuan and his party extended their control over the news media, banning 71 newspapers and arresting more than 60 journalists. These events left Huang with a much more pessimistic view of the importance of journalism.

The incident which triggered the final clash of Huang and Yuan occurred in 1915. At that time, news media sympathetic to Yuan had been promoting his plan to revive the monarchic system in China. At first, he offered Liang Qichao (梁啟超) two hundred thousand dollars to write an article in favor of him, but Liang refused. Then he approached Huang due to Huang's reputation. Yuan offered him ten thousand dollars to become a minister and the chief editor of Ya Shi Ya Daily News (亞細亞日報), which was under his control. Still, Huang was unwilling to violate his principles as a journalist. Huang posted his announcement entitled My declaration of opposing the monarchic system and resignation from all positions of Yuan's group of publishers 《黃遠生反對帝制並辭去袁系報紙聘約啟事》 in most major newspapers in Shanghai, including Shen Bao (申報). Huang published further similar announcements in several papers, including Shen Bao (申報) and Shi Shi Xin Bao (時事新報) to clarify his political break from Yuan.

Yuan maintained pressure on Huang by naming him chief editor of Ya Shi Ya Daily News against his will, a position which Huang rejected. Eventually, though, Huang tried to escape this political battle, devoting himself to further academic studies.

Journalism
Huang's writings were an important element in transforming traditional China into its modern form. Huang and other famous journalists such as Kang Youwei (康有為) and Liang Qichao (梁啟超) formed the Group of Journalists (報人集團), which played an important role in late Qing dynasty. As the educated ones, the group's opinions towards the society would be released to the public so that the dark side of the nation could be disclosed, enhancing the public's awareness of social issues. The group was undeniably a major breakthrough in China's journalistic history.

Huang was most active before and after the Xinhai Revolution (辛亥革命). That period was a dark age for cultural development in China, with the interference from the past and the present, China and the West. Huang showed his concern and worries in that period through his writings. Strictly speaking, there was nobody who would write so many articles as Huang did at that time.

Huang emphasized that a journalist should be equipped with four important abilities:

 * The ability to think critically (腦筋能想)
 * The ability to run (腿腳能奔走) - to develop and broaden interpersonal network to enrich news sources
 * The ability to listen (耳能聽即) - to analyze and co-ordinate trivial pieces into consequence
 * The ability to write (手能寫即) directly, without distortion

Literature
Many intellectuals such as Chen Duxiu (陳獨秀) were influenced by Huang's ideas. They organized and published "New Youths" 《新青年》 and "New current of ideas" 《新潮》, which were largely promoted in Shanghai. More than thirty articles of the two publications mentioned Huang's name and his innovative ideas. One famous intellectual, Hu Shih (胡適), even considered Huang as the "First Voice" of promoting a new type of literature in his book Wu shi nian lai zhi wen xue (Literature within fifty years) 《五十年來之文學》.

Huang has been regarded as the pioneer of the May Fourth Movement (五四運動). He termed the movement a "Chinese Renaissance" in 1915, before it had actually started. He advocated the Literary Enlightenment Movement (文藝啟蒙運動) by promoting modern Chinese literature and introducing Western ideas to China. In his article, My Confession 《懺悔錄》, he argued that a prerequisite for the betterment of the society is to improve the personality and quality of citizens. ("今日無論何等方面，自以改革為第一要義", 要改革國家).

Education

Although Huang achieved a good result in the Imperial Examination himself, he was highly critical of the system. Instead he stated that after the collapse of Qing dynasty, the examination system should also eventually be removed. Although new examination systems and schools were immediately introduced to China following the collapse, there were still a large number of people who gained nothing in the old system and could not fit into the new one. Huang argued that these people would become a threat to the society.

Writing
Before becoming a journalist Huang immersed himself in writing literature, as classical Chinese literature was still popular in the late Qing dynasty. He was known for writing fluently, with major use of rhetoric and allusion.

However, Huang realized that news articles should be comprehensible enough to be read by many people and that the use of classical Chinese language might obstruct the flow of expression. He therefore decided to change his style of writing. By writing in simple and colloquial language, Huang's articles magnified his critical and satirical attitude.

Mystery of his death
Huang was assassinated while visiting San Francisco, United States on Christmas Day, 25 December 1915, at the age of 30.

The circumstances of Huang's death remain a mystery, not only because there was political instability in China, but also because he was assassinated in San Francisco, far from his home. As a result, there are several possible explanations for the incident.

There were two versions of the story of the murder of Huang. One possibility is that Huang was shot by a killer sent by Yuan Shikai as payback for Huang's opposition to Yuan's monarchic system. Another version was that he was mistakenly assassinated by Liu Beihai (劉北海), a member of the Zhonghua Revolutionary Party (中華革命黨), which was later known as the Nationalist Party (國民黨). The Party suspected that Huang was indeed working for Yuan, and his purpose for visiting the U.S. was to promote the monarchic system. However, there is still not enough evidence to prove that Huang's death was related to Yuan, even today.

The date of Huang's assassination has also been called into some doubt. In the introduction of Yuansheng yi zhu 《遠生遺著》, a posthumous collection of Huang's articles, Lin Zhijun (林志鈞) recalled that he had heard the news on the night of 27 December 1915, and gives this date as the day of Huang's death. However, some scholars, including Li Shengduo (李盛鐸), believed that Huang was indeed killed on 25 December, as the date the news came did not necessarily have to be the day of the assassination. Therefore, generally, it has been accepted that the date of Huang's death was 25 December 1915.

title: Huang Yuanyong


text:
Raimo Tuomela

Raimo Heikki Tuomela (9 October 1940 – 22 November 2020) ) was a Finnish philosopher.

Career
Tuomela received his first degree of doctor of philosophy in 1968 from the University of Helsinki and the second one in 1969 from Stanford University. Tuomela was full professor of philosophy (especially methodology and philosophy of the social sciences) at the Department of Philosophy, University of Helsinki in 1971–2008.

Having earlier worked and published in many fields of philosophy, especially philosophy of science and philosophy of action, the theory of social action has been his main research interest.

Tuomela received several grants and awards, including the Alexander von Humboldt Foundation Research Award (Forschungspreis), awarded in recognition of achievements in research, and the honour prize of Finnish Academy of Science and Letters.

During the five-year period 1995–2000, Tuomela was Academy Professor at the Academy of Finland. This research professorship also included a research group working within the general field of the philosophy of social action.

Books in English

 * Theoretical Concepts. Library of Exact Philosophy 10, Springer-Verlag, Wien and New York, 1973, 254 pp.
 * Theoretical Concepts and Hypothetico-Inductive Inference (together with Ilkka Niiniluoto). Synthese Library, D. Reidel Publishing Company, Dordrecht and Boston, 1973, 262 pp.
 * Human Action and Its Explanation: A Study on the Philosophical Foundations of Psychology. Synthese Library, D. Reidel Publishing Co., Dordrecht and Boston, 1977, 426 pp.
 * A Theory of Social Action. D. Reidel Publishing Company, Dordrecht, Boston, and Lancaster, 1984, 534 pp.
 * Science, Action, and Reality. D. Reidel Publishing Company, Dordrecht, Boston, and Lancaster, 1985, 274 pp.
 * The Importance of Us: A Philosophical Study of Basic Social Notions. Stanford Series in Philosophy, Stanford University Press, Stanford, Calif., 1995, 470 pp.
 * Cooperation: A Philosophical Study, Philosophical Studies Series, Kluwer Academic Publishers, 2000, 431 pp.
 * The Philosophy of Social Practices: A Collective Acceptance View, Cambridge University Press, 2002, 274 pp.
 * The Philosophy of Sociality, Oxford University Press, 2007, 318 pp.
 * Social Ontology: Collective Intentionality and Group Agents, 2013, New York: Oxford University Press.

Books in Finnish

 * Tiede, toiminta ja todellisuus. Tieteellisen maailmankäsityksen filosofiset perusteet, Gaudeamus, Jyväskylä, 1983.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Raimo Tuomela


text:
Talk:Skoptsy

What information is there about the Skoptsy in the Soviet Union? Also, were deaths common from bleeding and other complications? Did the adherents perform the surgery on themselves, or were more experienced personnel available? Shorne 10:14, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * The article is from Encyclopedia Britannica, 1911, and it was not edited much. It seems no one really cares about the topic today. Mikkalai 16:04, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Gee, who wouldn't be intensely interested in a Russian sect of eunuchs?

Well I heard that there are reference in Soviet periodicals from time to time and that in Romanian descendants of some members still live. 63.231.129.229 20:32, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
 * How could they have had descendants? 173.165.239.237 (talk) 21:11, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Some of them waited until after they had produced kids to castrate themselves. Apparently they did not want to run out of cult members. Pascalulu88 (talk) 22:16, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Removed

 * They had a kind of eucharist, at which pieces of bread consecrated by being placed, for a while on the monument erected at Schlusselberg to Selivanov are given the communicants.
 * (1) which Schlusselberg? (2) Any of shlusselbergs are IMO not known for being visited by Selivanov, so there is to particular reason for his monument (if any) be sacred. Clarification required. Mikkalai 00:15, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Actually, it is the burial monument to Selivanov's disciple, Alexander Shilov. It is in Schlisselburg, Russia, not far from St. Petersburg, where Shilov has died in prison. They say the monument is still there.

Oadby
I have removed the reference to a similar present-day phenomenon in Oadby, it was completely unsourced (and probably defamatory of identifiable people). --Todowd 16:49, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Engelstein book
Someone with a copy of Laura Engelstein's book (and the time) could bring the entry up to standard - particularly as regards post-1911 developments. --Todowd 16:49, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Mention in sci-fi book
In the science fiction book The Stars My Destination, there's a reincarnation of the Skoptsy sect.

Cleanup
The diff between January 2006 and now seems to indicate that the page has been cleaned up quite a bit. Anyone object to removal of the Cleanup tag? — Jonathan Kovaciny (talk|contribs) 13:23, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. Removing the tag. Hooray! --Reuben (talk) 03:54, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I also added a couple of sources, including the New York Times article entitled "Skoptsy members on trial." Heh, heh.  I wonder if the staff writers in 1910 intended that to be as funny as I find it now.  --Reuben (talk) 05:17, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Move
A more usual transliteration would be Skoptsy, but the current title is Skoptzy. I suspect this is just a vestige of the heritage of this article from the 1911 Britannica. I'm being bold and moving. If anybody disagrees, just revert me. --Reuben (talk) 04:45, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

White Doves
Belye Golubi or White Doves, also Montanisty or Montany (Montans), were a particular sub-sect within the Skoptzy (which would be the more accurate transliteration), not the name applied to Skoptzy as a whole - neither by its adherents or anyone else. The White Doves shared the extreme beliefs and praxis of the Skoptzy from which they originated but the name was ideonymic, i.e., derived from doctrinal precepts, or dogma embraced by the body’s adherents. It referred to the Holy Spirit, with which the faithful believed they regularly communicated. They were vegetarians and abstained from the use of stimulants, including nicotine and alcohol (those were common items of self-denial among Old Believers and various sects that derived from them but strict observance in that respect varied in degree from group to group). Some writers categorize White Doves with Gnostic Sects, rather than the Eretiki (Heretics), as they also espoused some theosophical and mystical tenets. The alternative name ascribed to the sect, Montanisty, related to certain similarities between the beliefs and praxis of the Golubi and those of an early Christian heretical sect led by the priest, Montan.Irish Melkite (talk) 07:35, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

"believed to have nearly died out"?
"Nearly died out" implies there are still some. Is this true? Where? --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 01:38, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

I think that everyone should consider that the Skopskys might have been a social reaction against sexual diseases. Perhaps if one had such a disease, castration might have helped. Even if not, it would still allow them to participate socially amongst themselves (and not spreading disease). Also, this was a middle-class cult or religion or idea. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.196.213 (talk) 02:22, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

bubble bursting from a native speaker. 2 anyone willing to do a rewrite.
1.there is no need to list every possible way to transliterate the cyrillic "ц" and the cyrillic "ы" in the first paragraph. Just link the article on the transliteration of cyrillic. There also no need to speak of "alternative" spellings below.

2."скопец" just means "castrate" or a "eunuch" in Russian. It's kinda weird to list each mention of someone looking like a eunuch in Russian literature.

3.French or Spanish ways to spell the word are not mis-spellings either. "-etz" is the nominalization suffix ("-er") and "skop-" means "to carve out" (or "to emasclate") across many different languages in europe (same root in Greek; present in English as "to scab"). "Skopers" is as valid a translations as "emasculators" or, say, "castrationists". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.16.84.235 (talk) 02:17, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Skoptsy


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Rossington

Rossington is a civil parish and former mining village in the Metropolitan Borough of Doncaster in South Yorkshire, England and is surrounded by countryside and the market towns of Bawtry and Tickhill.

Geography
Historically part of the West Riding of Yorkshire, it has a population of 13,255, increasing to 13,557 at the 2011 Census. Robin Hood Airport Doncaster Sheffield is around two miles to the east. The village is demarcated to the north and west by a line of 400 kV pylons, as seen from the M18, to the north. The Finningley and Rossington Relief Road Scheme – from Junction 3 of the M18 to Parrot's Corner (junction of the A638 and the B6463 roads) – is proposed to allow access to the airport. Construction was due to start in late summer 2012 though initial site clearance work only commenced in early 2013.

To the north-west, the village borders Loversall, with the boundary following the River Torne, passing directly next to the western edge of the former Rossington Main Colliery. It briefly crosses the M18 at the point where the motorway crosses the East Coast Main Line. At this point it meets the Borough of Doncaster and follows Mother Drain, then the River Torne, north of Torne Valley Farm. It passes by a Roman fort and crosses the A638 at Rossington Bridge, north of Rossington Bridge Farm. At Wheatcroft Farm it meets Finningley. Nearby at the junction of the A638 and B6463, there is a park and ride car park. The boundary passes along the west of Hurst Plantation, and meets the A638, a former Roman road, at Warren House Farm. Following the A638 at Mount Pleasant Hotel, it meets Austerfield. In the south-east of the parish is the Northern Racing College (for horse racing), next to Rossington Hall School. At Bawtry Forest, it meets Bawtry. Crossing the B6463 at New England Cottages, it meets Tickhill. At Stancil Bridge, it meets the River Torne and Wadworth.

Places of worship
The village has a number of churches of different denominations: St. Michael's Church (Rossington Parish Church); St. Lukes's Church (New Rossington Parish Church); Rossington Methodist Church; Christ the King Roman Catholic Church; New Life Christian Centre; and Rossington Community Baptist Church at Holmescarr Community Centre

Education
The village has several schools, including: St. Michael's CE Primary School; St. Joseph's RC Primary School; Tornedale Infant School;  Pheasant Bank Junior School; Grange Lane Infant School; and Rossington All Saints Academy. Rossington Hall, which became a boarding school for "educationally subnormal" children in 1953, closed in 2008. Former councillor and Labour Party politician Caroline Flint owned 77 acres on the 3,000 acre Rossington Hall site in 2008.

History
There are remains of both a Roman fort and Roman pottery kilns in the area. The name Rossington translates from the old Anglo-Saxon name of 'Farm on the Moor'. In later times, Rossington housed a small village and both Rossington Hall and Shooters Hill Hall. Until the reign of Henry VII, the Rossington area was in Nottinghamshire as the River Torne was part of the boundary between Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire.

New Rossington, (Old) Rossington, Littleworth, Hesley, Rossington Bridge and Shooters Hill
The area known as "Rossington" is made up of a number of villages and hamlets, namely "Hesley", "Littleworth", "Rossington", "New Rossington", Rossington Bridge and Shooters Hill. The village of Littleworth was mentioned in the Doomsday book and was enlarged to a great degree in the 1970s, when Littleworth Park Estate was built. Doncaster city council removed the "Littleworth" sign at the junction of Littleworth Lane and Station Road in the late 1990s for renovation. The new village began to be built around the time of the sinking of the colliery. Rossington Bridge, although now only consisting of a few buildings is the oldest of the six settlements; situated on the crossing of the Roman road from Lincoln (Lindvm) to York (Ebvrscvm) via Doncaster (Danum) it was once the site of a major Roman fort (the largest between Lincoln and York). Rossington Bridge was also an important staging post on the Great North Road.

After the colliery closed, Rossington saw the building of large levels of new, private housing, particularly around the "Old Village", raising the village's affluence. Locally, the village is known as "Old Village" and "New Village" but local estate agents use the term "Old Rossington" when actually referring to The Original village of Rossington.

Colliery

It was, however, in the mid-20th century that saw the largest expansion of the area. The pit was sunk between 1912 and 1915. The need for workers in and around the Rossington Main Colliery led to the building of large numbers of houses near to the pit in what was called New Rossington. After the end of British Coal in the early 1990s, the mine was able to keep operating and became one of the last in the area to keep producing coal albeit at a greatly reduced scale. However, with the decline of the mine, the village suffered high levels of unemployment and poverty throughout the 1990s and early 2000s. The colliery closed briefly between 1993 and 1994 before finally closing in 2007. In 2012 a coal reclamation project started on the Rossington Colliery spoil tip, this was expected to take up to 5 years to complete.

In September 2012 planning permission was given by the borough council to build a £100 million, 1,200 home, housing development including a primary school and hotel on the colliery site. Construction of houses on the site began in May 2015.

Rail transport
The 'Old Village' and 'New Village' are separated by the East Coast Main Line. There are only two crossing points over the railway between the old and new villages: the road bridge on Stripe Road and the level crossing where West End Lane becomes Station Road. Rossington railway station was closed for regular services in 1958 but a few special trains stopped there until the late 1960s. The station buildings and platforms remained in place until the early 1980s, when the platforms, to the south of the level crossing, were dug up, and the old signal box that stood on the north east side of the crossing was demolished. A few years earlier, the signalling had been automated, and control of the crossing had moved to Doncaster PSB. When the old signal box was in operation, the crossing was controlled by a large set of wooden gates, which were operated by the signalman who had to leave the signal box and open and close the gates by hand. By the mid-1950s, these gates were opened and closed by a large wheel in the signal box. These gates were replaced by automated barriers controlled from Doncaster PSB at the same time as the signal box was closed; however, some older residents of Rossington still refer to the crossing gates. The only surviving building is the old station cottages, which stand on the north west side of the crossing and are now private dwellings.

Rail Port

In the first decade of the 21st century a plan was proposed for an 'eco town' of over ten thousand homes, to the southwest of Rossington, the plan was opposed by the majority of Rossington residents, and was reduced in scope by the end of the decade; a related industrial development proposed as part of the plan was a large scale intermodal rail terminal which received wider support and was given planning consent in 2011 with construction expected to take place over two years starting 2012, with continued development over eight years. The rail terminal is to be built west of the Rossington Colliery site.

Sport
Rossington Main Football Club was formed in 1919 as Rossington Colliery, originally playing behind the colliery offices in New Rossington, before moving to their current home at the end of Oxford Street in 1921. In 1998 the club merged with the latterly formed Rossington F.C. (formerly Station F.C.), and the new Rossington Main F.C. currently play in the Northern Counties East League.

Rossington is the home to the 'RASCALS' swimming team based at Rossington Sports Centre. Rossington Swimming Club was founded in June 1966.

Rossington has a long history of local junior and senior cricket. Rossington Main Cricket Club has three senior teams which mix youth and experience; these teams play on a Saturday and Sunday. The cricket club also has junior teams from the under 11s, under 13s, under 15s and under 17s.

Twinned Towns
Rossington is twinned with McCleary in Washington State, United States.

Notable people

 * Don Concannon, Labour MP from 1966 to 1987 for Mansfield (another area with coal mining heritage)
 * Sir Patrick Duffy, former Labour MP for Colne Valley and Sheffield Attercliffe, grew up in Rossington
 * Ernest Jones CBE, President from 1954 to 1960 of the NUM, worked at Rossington Main Colliery from 1918 to 1921
 * Jack Teasdale, footballer for Doncaster Rovers from 1949 to 1956.

title: Rossington


text:
Talk:Marree, South Australia

Comment
Marree is surely spelled Maree. Syd1435 10:17, 2004 Oct 2 (UTC)
 * No, it is Marree --ScottDavis 01:48, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Marree, South Australia


text:
The Religion War

The Religion War (ISBN 0-7407-4788-6) is a 2004 novel by Dilbert creator Scott Adams, and the sequel to his novella God's Debris. This book takes place right before the last chapter of that book. Adams has asserted that it is his two religion-themed novels, and not Dilbert, which “will be his ultimate legacy.”

Plot summary
The delivery boy from the first book, who is now the Avatar, must stop an epic clash of civilizations between the Western world, led by Christian extremist General Horatio Cruz, and the Middle East, led by Muslim extremist Al-Zee. To accomplish this task, the Avatar decides to find the "Prime Influencer", a person who, he feels, can indirectly influence all the decisions people make by virtue of responsibility, from fashion to the election of the President. He attempts to do so by enlisting a talented and arrogant programmer at Global Information Corporation (G.I.C.) (an all-encompassing, world-wide future sort of T.I.A. created out of fear of terrorism) to analyze G.I.C.'s massive databases. Also, people's phones are, in the name of preventing terrorist communications, restricted to only calling certain contacts a person has that have been approved by the Department of Communications; this fact ultimately comes back in the book's climax.

The Avatar applies his unparalleled ability to identify developing patterns and accurately determine the most probable results of a situation to accurately predict the war plans of both Cruz and Al-Zee. He subsequently uses his ability to recognize even the vaguest patterns (which makes him seem to know more than he actually does) to bypass guards, escape interrogations, and ultimately win an audience with the warring leaders.

Ultimately, the Avatar fails to stop the coming of the war. However, at the conclusion of the book, the Prime Influencer, who turns out to be an opinionated café owner whom the Avatar had met previously by chance, launches a simple, yet catchy, phrase (If God is so smart, why do you fart?) that spreads throughout the world like a virus thanks to an advanced computer worm, named Giver-of-Data (G.o.D.), launched by the G.I.C. programmer shortly before his death, which unlocked everyone's phones, linked them to automatic translation systems, and disabled call-billing. According to the story, "Once you heard it, you could never forget it." It was this phrase that finally captured the collective imaginations of ordinary people, causing them to reevaluate the basis of their notions of a god. This ultimately led to the elimination of fundamentalist religious practices throughout the world, which, in turn, resulted in the end of the Religion War.

Reception
One review observes:

"The second novella, a follow-up titled The Religion War, describes a civilizational conflict in 2040 between a violent caliphate in the Middle East and a Christian alliance in the West. The hard-nosed hero builds a wall around the jihadists and “essentially kills everybody there,” Adams told me. “I have to be careful, because I’m talking about something pretty close to genocide, so I’m not saying I prefer it, I’m saying I predict it.”"

Another notes: “In this frenetically paced sequel to Adams’ best-selling “thought experiment,” God’s Debris, the smartest man in the world is on a mission to stop a cataclysmic war between Christian and Muslim forces and save civilization.”

title: The Religion War


text:
On the Beach (Neil Young album)

On the Beach is the fifth studio album by Canadian-American musician Neil Young, released by Reprise Records in July 1974. The album is the second of the so-called "Ditch Trilogy" of albums that Young recorded following the major success of 1972's Harvest, whereupon the scope of his success and acclaim became apparent; On the Beach was inspired by his feelings of retreat, alienation, and melancholy in response to this success.

Background
Looking back on the album for the liner notes to the Decade box set, Young wrote of the song Heart of Gold, "This song put me in the middle of the road. Traveling there soon became a bore, so I headed for the ditch. A rougher ride but I saw more interesting people there." Recorded after (but released before) Tonight's the Night, On the Beach shares some of that album's bleakness and crude production—which came as a shock to fans and critics alike, as this was the long-awaited studio follow-up to the commercially and critically successful Harvest—but also included hints pointing towards a more subtle outlook, particularly on the opening track, "Walk On".

While the original Rolling Stone review described it as "one of the most despairing albums of the decade", later critics such as Allmusic's William Ruhlmann used the benefit of hindsight to conclude that Young "[w]as saying goodbye to despair, not being overwhelmed by it". The despair of Tonight's the Night, communicated through intentional underproduction and lyrical pessimism, gives way to a more polished album that is still pessimistic but to a lesser degree.

Much like Tonight's the Night, On the Beach was not a commercial success at the time of its release, but over time has attained a high regard from fans and critics alike. The album was recorded in a haphazard manner, with Young utilizing a variety of session musicians, and often changing their instruments while offering only barebones arrangements for them to follow (in a similar style to Tonight's the Night). He also would opt for rough, monitor mixes of songs rather than a more polished sound, alienating his sound engineers in the process.

Throughout the recording of the album, Young and his colleagues consumed a homemade concoction dubbed "Honey Slides", a goop of sauteed marijuana and honey that "felt like heroin", at the behest of session musician and de facto producer Rusty Kershaw. This may account for the mellow mood of the album, particularly the second half of the LP. Young has said of it "Good album. One side of it particularly—the side with 'Ambulance Blues', 'Motion Pictures' and 'On the Beach'—it's out there. It's a great take."

Writing
On the Beach is a folk rock album exploring themes of anger, alienation, and cautious optimism.

"Walk On", the album's opener, has Young combining his melancholy outlook with a wish to move on and keep living. In the liner notes to Decade, Young describes the song as "My over defensive reaction to criticisms of Tonight's The Night and the seemingly endless flow of money coming from you people out there."

The social commentary "See the Sky About to Rain" dates from Harvest. It had been covered by The Byrds a year earlier on their eponymous reunion album.

"Revolution Blues" was inspired by Charles Manson, whom Young had met in his Topanga Canyon days about six months before the Tate–LaBianca murders. David Crosby and Young's other bandmates objected to playing the song live. "Man, they didn't know if they wanted to stand on the same stage as me when I was doin' it. I was goin', 'It's just a fuckin' song. What's the big deal? It's about culture. It's about what's really happening. In a 1985 interview, Young remembers meeting Manson and being spooked by him: "'I met him through Dennis Wilson. He wanted to make records. He wanted me to introduce him to Mo Ostin at Reprise. He had this kind of music that no one was doing. He would sit down with the guitar and start playing and make up stuff, different every time, it just kept comin' out, comin' out, comin' out. Then he would stop and you would never hear that one again. Musically I thought he was very unique. I thought he really had something crazy, something great. He was like a living poet. It was always coming out. He had a lot of girls around at the time and I thought, 'Well, this guy has a lot of girlfriends.' He was very intense. I met him two or three times. I don't know why he did what he did. But I think he was very frustrated in not being able to get it, and he blamed somebody. It had to do with Terry Melcher, who was a producer of records at that time. He wanted very much to make a record. And he really was unique. But I don't know what happened. I don't know what they got into. I remember there was a lot of energy whenever he was around. And he was different. You can tell he's different. All you have to do is look at him. Once you've seen him you can never forget him. I'll tell you that. Something about him that's...I can't forget it. I don't know what you would call it, but I wouldn't want to call it anything in an interview. I would just like to forget about it.'"

"For the Turnstiles" is a country-folk hybrid featuring Young's banjo guitar and a harmony vocal from Ben Keith, who also plays dobro on the track. Its lyrics are a critique of the music side of the entertainment industry. In the Decade liner notes, Young states "If statues could speak and Casey was still at bat, some promoter somewhere would be making deals with ticketron right now."

The side closes with "Vampire Blues", a cynical attack on the oil industry.

Side two opens with "On the Beach", a slow, bluesy meditation on the downsides of fame.

"Motion Pictures" is an elegy for Young's relationship with actress Carrie Snodgress. Young remembers in Waging Heavy Peace: "'I was growing further and further from Carrie. I did the recording with Ben Keith and Rusty Kershaw and we were all high on “honey slides,” a little concoction that Rusty's wife, Julie, cooked up. Honey slides were made with grass and honey cooked together and stirred in a frying pan until a black gooey substance was left in the pan. A couple of spoonfuls of that and you would be laid-back into the middle of next week. The record was slow and dreamy, kind of underwater without bubbles.'" The song was written in a Los Angeles hotel room while watching TV. Kershaw remembers the atmosphere while writing the song in Shakey: "'We didn't work every day, we only worked when we felt really inspired. Me and Ben and Neil were sittin' in Ben's room. Neil started hummin' somethin', and I started playin' along with the melody on the steel. Ben started playin' bass, it sounded so goddamn pretty. Neil picked up a pen and just wrote the words right then and put that motherfucker down while it was still smeared all over us."

"Ambulance Blues" closes the album. In a 1992 interview for the French Guitare & Claviers magazine, Young discussed Bert Jansch's influence on the song: "'As for acoustic guitar, Bert Jansch is on the same level as Jimi [Hendrix]. That first record of his is epic. It came from England, and I was especially taken by 'Needle of Death', such a beautiful and angry song. That guy was so good. And years later, on On the Beach, I wrote the melody of 'Ambulance Blues' by styling the guitar part completely on 'Needle of Death'. I wasn't even aware of it, and someone else drew my attention to it.'" The song explores Young's feelings about his critics, Richard Nixon, and the state of CSNY. The line "You're all just pissing in the wind" was a direct quote from Young's manager Elliot Roberts regarding the inactivity of the quartet. The song also references the Riverboat, a small coffeehouse in Toronto's Yorkville neighbourhood which was an early venue for folk-inspired artists like Gordon Lightfoot, Bruce Cockburn, Joni Mitchell, Simon & Garfunkel, and Arlo Guthrie. The line "Oh, Isabella, proud Isabella, they tore you down and plowed you under" references 88 Isabella Street, an old rooming house in Toronto where Neil and Rick James stayed for a period. It was demolished in the early 1970s and an apartment now stands on its location. Young confirms in a 2023 post to the "Letters to the Editor" section of his website that the verse about the man who tells so many lies was indeed written for Richard Nixon.

Recording
Most of the album was recorded at Sunset Sound in Hollywood in late March and early April 1974. Two tracks, "Walk On" and "For the Turnstiles" were recorded months prior at Young's ranch. David Briggs fell ill and missed most of the sessions. Sideman Ben Keith took the lead in recruiting Rusty Kershaw and members of The Band to play on the album. Members of both Crazy Horse and CSNY also contributed to the sessions.

Young recorded several new songs at his ranch in November and December 1973. These included "Winterlong" from Decade, "Borrowed Tune" from Tonight's the Night, demos of "Traces" and "Ambulance Blues" as well as new attempts at "Bad Fog of Loneliness", "Human Highway", and "Mellow My Mind". The sessions also produced the album tracks "Walk On" and "For the Turnstiles". Ben Keith humorously remembers recording the latter song on dobro and banjo with Young and pushing his vocal abilities to the limit: "I'd sing these off, weird harmonies, and Neil'd go, 'Oh, that's cool—do that.' I didn't know I could sing that high—I still can't. I must've been sittin' on a crack and got my balls in there."

The remaining sessions were held at Sunset Sound, where Young had previously recorded with Buffalo Springfield and Crazy Horse. The mood of the sessions was heavily influenced by the honey slides, creating a very melancholy, depressed atmosphere. Additionally, Young was at the time realizing that his relationship with Carrie Snodgress was disintegrating. Rusty Kershaw insisted on taking a relaxed approach to recording, rejecting the need to rehearse the material beforehand. He explains in Shakey: "'I said, 'Neil, when it'll move me the most is the first time you play it. You're gonna do it your very best then, and I can play it with you the first time. We only have to sit real close together. Neil said to me later, 'How in the hell do you know how to play this thing the first time I play it? You don't know what I'm gonna do.' I said, Neil, you carry a heavy vibe, and if I'm sittin' close to you, I can feel what you feel before you play. I know where you’re gonna go.''"

Dissatisfied with their complacent performances, Kershaw managed to motivate the other musicians to inject extra energy and unease into the recording of "Revolution Blues" through wild behavior and crazy antics in the studio: "I said, 'Look, man, you don’t sound like you're tryin' to start a fuckin' revolution. Here's how you start that.' And I just started breakin' a bunch of shit and Ben jumped right in there. I said, 'That's a revolution, muth' fucker.' Goddamn, that sparked Neil right off. He got it on the next take."

Album cover
The album cover was designed by art director Gary Burden with photography by Bob Seidemann. It features Young facing the ocean at Santa Monica Beach with an umbrella and a 1959 Cadillac sticking up out of the sand. Young explains in his 2015 memoir, Waging Heavy Peace: "'One of my favorite album covers is On the Beach. Of course that was the name of a movie and I stole it for my record, but that doesn't matter. The idea for that cover came like a bolt from the blue. Gary and I traveled around getting all the pieces to put it together. We went to a junkyard in Santa Ana to get the tail fin and fender from a 1959 Cadillac, complete with taillights, and watched them cut it off a Cadillac for us; then we went to a patio supply place to get the umbrella and table. We picked up the bad polyester yellow jacket and white pants at a sleazy men's shop, where we watched a shoplifter getting caught red-handed and busted. Gary and I were stoned on some dynamite weed and stood dumbfounded, watching the bust unfold. This girl was screaming and kicking! Finally we grabbed a local LA paper to use as a prop. It had this amazing headline: SEN. BUCKLEY CALLS FOR NIXON TO RESIGN. Next we took the palm tree I had taken around the world on the Tonight's the Night tour. We then placed all of these pieces carefully in the sand at Santa Monica Beach. Then we shot it. Bob Seidemann was the photographer, the same one who took the famous Blind Faith cover shot of the naked young girl holding an airplane. We used the crazy pattern from the umbrella insides for the inside of the sleeve that held the vinyl recording. That was the creative process at work. We lived for that, Gary and I, and we still do.'"

Release
In addition to its release on vinyl, On the Beach was also released on cassette and 8-track cartridge, though the track listing for the latter formats was the reverse of that on the vinyl album. It remained unavailable on CD until 2003, when a remastered version was finally released. It has since been re-released as Disc 2 of the 4-CD box set Neil Young Original Release Series Discs 5-8. The album is also available in high-resolution audio on the Neil Young Archives website, where four additional album outtakes were added in February 2021.

Originally Young had intended for the A and B sides of the LP to be in reverse order but was convinced by David Briggs to swap them at the last moment. Young has said that he later came to regret caving in, although both the cassette and 8-track versions were released with the sides swapped.

For about two decades, rarity made a cult out of On the Beach. The title was deleted from vinyl in the early 1980s and was only briefly available on cassette and 8-track cartridge tape, or European imports or bootlegs. Along with three other mid-period Young albums, it was withheld from re-release until 2003. The reasons for this remain murky, but there is some evidence that Young himself did not want the album out on CD, variously citing "fidelity problems" and legal issues. Beginning in 2000, over 5,000 fans signed an online petition calling for the release of the album on CD. It was finally released on CD on Reprise Records in August 2003.

Promotion
Young did not tour behind the album, instead joining CSNY for their Summer 1974 large stadium tour, chronicled in the 2014 live album CSNY 1974, where the group played "Walk On", "Revolution Blues" and "On the Beach" and Young would perform "Ambulance Blues" solo acoustic. Prior to the tour, Young would also play a widely bootlegged solo acoustic set at The Bottom Line in New York, where he would debut the album's songs and famously share his recipe for honey slides.

Reception
Reviewing in Christgau's Record Guide: Rock Albums of the Seventies (1981), Robert Christgau wrote: "Something in [Young's] obsessive self-examination is easy to dislike and something in his whiny thinness hard to enjoy. But even 'Ambulance Blues,' an eight-minute throwaway, is studded with great lines, one of which is 'It's hard to know the meaning of this song.' And I can hum it for you if you'd like."

Pitchfork listed it #65 on their list of the Top 100 Albums of the 1970s. On the Beach was certified gold in the United States, selling 500,000 copies. In 2007, On the Beach was placed at #40 in Bob Mersereau's book The Top 100 Canadian Albums. It was voted number 195 in Colin Larkin's All Time Top 1000 Albums in 2000. In 2020, Rolling Stone included the album at number 311 on their list of The 500 Greatest Albums of All Time, writing: "Reeling from the losses that sparked Tonight's the Night the previous year, Neil Young shelved that album for a while and made this one instead: a wild fireball of anger (“Revolution Blues”), nihilism (“For the Turnstiles”), and tentative optimism (“Walk On”). The album peaks on Side Two, a stoned symphony of grieving whose three songs (“On the Beach,” “Motion Pictures,” “Ambulance Blues”) are among the most emotionally real in Young's catalogue."

Track listing
All tracks are written by Neil Young. All track timings are from the original vinyl release, R 2180.

Side one

 * 1) "Walk On" (2:40)
 * 2) * Neil Young – guitar, vocal; Ben Keith – slide guitar, vocal; Billy Talbot – bass; Ralph Molina – drums, vocal
 * 3) * Recorded at Studio, Broken Arrow Ranch, 11/30/1973. Produced by David Briggs & Neil Young.
 * 4) "See the Sky About to Rain" (5:03)
 * 5) * Neil Young – Wurlitzer electric piano, vocal; Ben Keith – steel guitar; Tim Drummond – bass; Levon Helm – drums; Joe Yankee – harmonica
 * 6) * Recorded at Sunset Sound, Hollywood, CA, 3/29/1974. Produced by Neil Young & Mark Harman.
 * 7) "Revolution Blues" (4:02)
 * 8) * Neil Young – guitar, vocal; Ben Keith – Wurlitzer electric piano; David Crosby – guitar; Rick Danko – bass; Levon Helm – drums
 * 9) * Recorded at Sunset Sound, Hollywood, CA, 4/6/1974. Produced by Neil Young & Mark Harman.
 * 10) "For the Turnstiles" (3:13)
 * 11) * Neil Young – banjo guitar, vocal; Ben Keith – dobro, vocal
 * 12) * Recorded at Studio, Broken Arrow Ranch, 12/14/1973. Produced by Neil Young.
 * 13) "Vampire Blues" (4:11)
 * 14) * Neil Young – guitar, vocal; Ben Keith – organ, vocal, hair drum; George Whitsell – guitar; Tim Drummond – bass, percussion; Ralph Molina – drums
 * 15) * Recorded at Sunset Sound, Hollywood, CA, 4/7/1974. Produced by Neil Young & Mark Harman.

Side two

 * 1) "On the Beach" (7:04)
 * 2) * Neil Young – guitar, vocal; Ben Keith – hand drums; Graham Nash – Wurlitzer electric piano; Tim Drummond – bass; Ralph Molina – drums
 * 3) * Recorded at Sunset Sound, Hollywood, CA, 3/28/1974. Produced by Neil Young & Al Schmitt.
 * 4) "Motion Pictures" (4:20)
 * 5) * Neil Young – guitar, vocal, harmonica; Ben Keith – bass; Rusty Kershaw – slide guitar; Ralph Molina – hand drums
 * 6) * Recorded at Sunset Sound, Hollywood, 3/26/1974. Produced by Neil Young & Al Schmitt.
 * 7) "Ambulance Blues" (8:57)
 * 8) * Neil Young – guitar, vocal, harmonica, electric tambourine; Ben Keith – bass; Rusty Kershaw – fiddle; Ralph Molina – hand drums
 * 9) * Recorded at Sunset Sound, Hollywood, 3/25/1974. Produced by Neil Young & Al Schmitt.

Personnel

 * Neil Young – vocals; guitar on "Walk On", "Revolution Blues", "Vampire Blues", "On the Beach", "Motion Pictures" and "Ambulance Blues"; harmonica on "See the Sky About to Rain", "Motion Pictures" and "Ambulance Blues"; Wurlitzer electric piano on "See the Sky About to Rain"; banjo guitar on "For the Turnstiles"; electric tambourine on "Ambulance Blues"
 * Ben Keith – slide guitar, vocal on "Walk On"; steel guitar on "See the Sky About to Rain"; Wurlitzer electric piano on "Revolution Blues"; Dobro, vocal on "For the Turnstiles"; organ, vocal, and hair drum on "Vampire Blues"; hand drums on "On the Beach"; bass on "Motion Pictures" and "Ambulance Blues"
 * Rusty Kershaw – slide guitar on "Motion Pictures"; fiddle on "Ambulance Blues"
 * David Crosby – rhythm guitar on "Revolution Blues"
 * George Whitsell – guitar on "Vampire Blues"
 * Graham Nash – Wurlitzer electric piano on "On the Beach"
 * Tim Drummond – bass on "See the Sky About to Rain", "Vampire Blues" and "On the Beach"; percussion on "Vampire Blues"
 * Billy Talbot – bass on "Walk On"
 * Rick Danko – bass on "Revolution Blues"
 * Ralph Molina – drums and vocal on "Walk On"; drums on "Vampire Blues" and "On the Beach"; hand drums on "Motion Pictures" and "Ambulance Blues"
 * Levon Helm – drums on "See the Sky About to Rain" and "Revolution Blues"

 * Technical
 * Gary Burden – art direction, design
 * Bob Seidemann – cover photography

Note
 * Neil Young credited as Joe Yankee for "electric tambourine" on "Ambulance Blues"
 * All songs recorded at Sunset Sound, Los Angeles, except "Walk On" and "For The Turnstiles", recorded at Broken Arrow Studios, San Francisco (Woodside, nr. Redwood City, nr. San Francisco)

Singles
Year End Album Charts

title: On the Beach (Neil Young album)


text:
Quorn, South Australia

Quorn is a small town and railhead in the Flinders Ranges in the north of South Australia, 39 km northeast of Port Augusta.

Quorn is the home of the Flinders Ranges Council local government area. It is in the state Electoral district of Stuart and the federal Division of Grey.

With its picturesque setting and heritage-listed buildings, the town is known for tourism and as a filming location, as well as being the terminus of the Pichi Richi Railway.

History

The town was surveyed by Godfrey Walshin 1878 as part of the preparations for building the railway line from Port Augusta northwards. It was named by Mr J.H.B. Warner whose family lived in Quorn, Leicestershire, England. At the time, he was employed as private secretary to the Governor of South Australia.

The railway line from Port Augusta to Quorn opened in 1879 and was subsequently extended north to Government Gums (Farina) in 1882, Marree in 1884, Oodnadatta in 1890 and Alice Springs in 1929. This railway line later became known as the Great Northern Railway and later the Central Australia Railway.

In 1917, Quorn became the crossroads of any north–south (on the Central Australian Railway to Oodnadatta) or east–west travel in Australia, when the Trans-Australian Railway was completed between Port Augusta and Kalgoorlie. This made Quorn an important town, given that any person travelling east–west or north–south in Australia would need to pass through Quorn. As a result, many fine buildings were built as the town expanded.

Quorn's role as a crossroads was lost when a standard gauge railway connection was opened between Port Pirie Junction and Port Augusta in 1937, meaning east–west trains bypassed Quorn. However, during World War II, Quorn was a vital service point for trains heading north to Alice Springs and carried over 1,000,000 troops heading to Darwin and on to Papua New Guinea. Trains services through Quorn peaked at over 50 per day during and immediately after the period of World War II. Services during this time also included coal mined at Leigh Creek being moved to the newly opened Playford A Power Station in Port Augusta.

During the 1950s a new standard gauge line was built that passed on the western side of The Dutchmans Stern, Mount Arden and Mount Eyre, from Stirling North to Brachina and then roughly following the original narrow gauge route through Leigh Creek and to Marree, thus bypassing Quorn. This bypass took away the last railway traffic through the Pichi Richi Pass, and the last major freight traffic through Quorn. The only services left operating through Quorn were freight between Peterborough and Hawker. As a result, Quorn's importance diminished and eventually in 1980s the railway was completely closed as the last freight was moved to road transport. One unusual aspect of the railway working from Peterborough to Quorn and then on to Hawker was the need for the engine to be turned and attached to the opposite end of the train when arriving at Quorn, as it was not a "through" station for the trip from Peterborough to Hawker.

In 1973, a group of railway enthusiasts assembled with the desire to preserve the unique bridges and stone work built in the previous century that formed the railway through the Pichi Richi Pass between Quorn and Stirling North. Thus the Pichi Richi Railway Preservation Society was formed. Although the intention was to just preserve the railway through the Pichi Richi Pass, they later acquired operable railway rollingstock and locomotives and today provide a tourist railway service through the Pichi Richi Pass from Quorn to Port Augusta. There is at least one book by preservationists showing the line in its heyday.

Tourism

A main attraction in Quorn is the Pichi Richi Railway. There are also self-guided walking tours in the town, including several based around the town's historic old buildings, the railway yards and other historic locations. There are a number of hotels, takeaways and cafés in town.

In mid 2020 The Flinders Ranges Council installed signage outside the historic buildings for historic and tourist information. The Flinders Ranges Visitor Information Centre / Pichi Richi Railway in the Quorn railway station has a museum, and provides visitor information including workshop tours, bookings for travel on the railway, accommodation information, heritage self-guided walking maps and souvenirs.

The Heysen Trail and the Mawson Trail, a pair of long-distance trails dedicated respectively to walking and cycling, pass through town and there are many bushwalks and four-wheel drive tracks.

Quorn is a stopover for many travellers coming from Adelaide to explore the Flinders Ranges. The tourist office is in the Quorn Railway Station provides free information, maps and trails to safely see the best sites in the Flinders, including Warren Gorge, Kanyaka Station, Proby's Grave and Itali Itali.

The grain silos in the Quorn railway yards are viewing area for a nightly film showing the local history or Quorn and surrounds and on display every evening after dark. This is an open-air and free event.

Quorn has also been the location for several popular films, including The Shiralee, Sunday Too Far Away, Gallipoli, Wolf Creek, The Sundowners, The Lighthorsemen and The Last Ride starring Hugo Weaving. In 2014 Russell Crowe directed The Water Diviner, using the Pichi Richi Railway for the railway scenes.

People

 * Quorn is home to country music artist Jedd Hughes
 * Quorn was the birthplace of politician Brian Harradine, actress Anne Haddy and champion SANFL footballer Fos Williams. The nurse, farmer and uranium mine discoverer Gwendolyne Stevens was also born here.
 * Former Australian of the Year, Lowitja O'Donoghue AC CBE, spent much of her childhood at the Colebrook Children's Home, an institution housing Aboriginal children run by the United Aborigines Mission.

Heritage listings
Quorn has a number of heritage-listed sites, including:
 * Arden Vale Road: Mt Arden Station
 * 37 First Street: Savings Bank of South Australia, Quorn
 * 45-47 First Street: Foster's Store
 * Quorn-Port Augusta Road: Woolshed Flat Railway Bridge
 * Railway Terrace: Catholic Church of the Immaculate Conception, Quorn
 * Railway Terrace: Quorn railway station
 * 20 (Rear) Railway Terrace: Quorn Institute
 * 2 Railway Terrace: Dunn's Flour Mill
 * 6 Railway Terrace: Bank of Adelaide, Quorn
 * 11 Railway Terrace: National Bank, Quorn
 * 14-15 Railway Terrace: Transcontinental Hotel, Quorn
 * 16 Railway Terrace Austral Hotel, Quorn
 * 17 Railway Terrace: Bruse's Hall
 * 18 Railway Terrace: Criterion Hotel, Quorn
 * 19 Railway Terrace: Quorn Courthouse
 * 20 Railway Terrace: Quorn Town Hall
 * 25 Railway Terrace: Grand Junction Hotel
 * 15 Seventh Street: St Matthew's Anglican Church, Quorn

title: Quorn, South Australia


text:
Talk:Coober Pedy

Coober
Check spelling, someone.

Syd1435 10:27, 2004 Oct 2 (UTC)

 * Coober. Mike H 10:29, Oct 2, 2004 (UTC)
 * Yep. Randwicked 10:38, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

everyone thought it used to be cooper. Now with evidence of about six atlas. The conclusion is it is CooBer Pedy.

Underground housing
Does anyone have a picture of one of these cave houses they could post? Sounds really intriguing! Infilms 22:45, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I have added a photo. cheers Nachoman-au 08:42, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Thank you! I have always liked the idea of living underground and it's great to see what doing so might actually look like Infilms 10:19, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Underground homes/ cave name fix
These homes are actually called Dugouts they are not just for homes, the church is a dug out and there are several stores in the dug out set up. yes by definition they are caves but they are called dug outs to the the town and to all those who know of them.

And they are quite comfortable I have lived in two. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wolviechickie (talk • contribs) 02:23, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

KUPA PITI
c'mon someones gotta say something about what the name really means!

ask any aboriginal! and they'll laugh —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.51.161.162 (talk) 16:35, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

 * Lol, it means 'white man in a hole'! User PrJ 27   talk  02:55, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

 * it does mean "white man in a hole". not 'boy in a hole'. abororg's thought that the white men living in the holes looked like rabbits back at the turn of the 20th century. hence the name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.55.122.77 (talk) 19:33, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Pop culture
Seems a couple of editors are edit warring over the pop culture section with no discussion here. I've chopped the unsourced material. If editors want particular items listed, then they should get at it and supply WP:reliable sources showing the significance of them. Vsmith (talk) 02:29, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

A Link to a photo of spaceship is here- would be good in this section.. http://images.search.conduit.com/ImagePreview/?q=spaceship%20coober%20peddy&ctid=CT2405280&searchsource=15&SSPV=EB_SSPV&CUI=SB_CUI&start=0&pos=13 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nspacemonkey (talk • contribs) 05:16, 18 September 2012

Oil "reserves"
203.45.250.23 (talk) 08:58, 1 August 2013 (UTC)This section needs work. Reserves are a defined term in the Petroleum Industry (http://www.spe.org/industry/docs/Petroleum_Resources_Management_System_2007.pdf Petroleum_Resources_Management_System 2007). The Company announcement does not use the words reserve, nor does it use the words oil discovery. http://www.lincenergy.com/data/asxpdf/ASX-LNC-458.pdf The consultant's report]. The announcement concerns a "prospective resource", a defined term for a (hypothetical) volume of yet undiscovered petroleum. The report describes a rock (not oil) that may contain oil under certain as yet untested conditions. The volume reported is an extrapolation from the volume of the rock under the ground.

To use an analogy: seeing a river is not catching a fish. The prospective resource is all the fish you hope might be in a river. A reserve is the fish you've demonstrated you can catch.

The wiki para captures the media reporting faithfully but in doing so it carries over the misuse of the terms reserve and discovery.

 * Exactly! Who ever wrote that section should make a very clear distinction between what is thought to be there (the resource, aka. oil in place) and what is thought to stand a reasonable chance at being recovered (URR or Ultimately Recoverable Reserves). In the case of tight oil, the latter is usually just a small fraction of the former. --Antred (talk) 17:55, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

 * Oh, and before I forget it, whether this enables Australia to become a net exporter of oil has very little to do with the size of the URR. It depends solely on the rate of the extraction. --Antred (talk) 17:57, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

House Hunters Off the Grid
A new series on HGTV called House Hunters Off the Grid (further to a variety of other iterations of the House Hunters) premiered earlier this week (in the U.S.A.) on Monday, April 21, 2014. The next day, Tuesday, April 22, 2014, featured a couple moving from Copenhagen (Denmark) to Coober Pedy and buying a home there. The three houses featured as choices for them included two "dugouts" and one house built above ground. Title of the episode was "Cave Me, Maybe in Coober Pedy, Australia". Wikipedia's article on the various iterations of "House Hunters" on HGTV does not yet include an information about this latest series, at least not as of today (Friday, April 25, 2014), no doubt because it is so new.Toddabearsf (talk) 15:25, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

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Surely some mistake?
The article says "In the 2016 Census, there were 1,762 people in Coober Pedy (State Suburbs). Of these 962 were male and 801 were female." The Australian Bureau of Statistics gives the same figures. What do we do when a presumably reliable source is so evidently mistaken? RolandR (talk) 23:02, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

 * We have to accept the published figures, since there isn't anything better. In the ABS's Community Profiles page there's this statement:
 * Note: Small random adjustments have been made to all cell values to protect the confidentiality of data. These adjustments may cause the sum of rows or columns to differ by small amounts from table totals. For further information, go to the Census of Population and Housing - QuickStats, Community Profiles and DataPack User Guide, Australia (cat no. 2916.0)
 * In the second linked document there's this statement: This technique, known as perturbation, is applied to all counts, including totals, to prevent any identifiable data about individuals being released. Cheers, Bahudhara (talk) 02:48, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Driest town?
Is Coober Pedy the driest town? [https://quizzclub.com/trivia/what-is-the-driest-town-in-australia-in-terms-of-rainfall/answer/337895/#:~:text=The%20driest%20town%20is%20Coober,(6.26%20inches)%20per%20annum.&text=In%20the%202016%20Census%2C%20there,adapted%20ingeniously%20to%20their%20conditions. This] source says so. AussieCoinCollector (talk) wish the entire world's COVID-19 status was like WA, 275+ days of no local cases :) 00:21, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Just becase some unreliable site says so, doesn't make it fact. Different if the sourse was from the Bureau of Meteorology or Geoscience Australia, which are reliable. Bidgee (talk) 02:49, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Hard to find a reliable source stating driest town. Bonzle says driest town is Coober Pedy; a couple of sites say that the driest place is Mulka Bore, which is in the Lake Eyre region, which Geoscience Australia says is the driest area. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 03:59, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Unsolved murders
Probably should mention the 4 unsolved murders in this town, seems like quite a lot for a town of such a small population, and it is thought that at least 2 of them are linked. 84.211.51.170 (talk) 02:37, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Name Pronunciation
IPA after the name suggests /ku:bər pi:di:/. (probably actually ɚ) This is not accurate to Australian pronunciation, nor to the purported etymology (which has no r). Pronouncing it with an r is essentially spelling-pronunciation afaik. Akku anka (talk) 11:51, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

 * I think you're right, but not overly familiar with the IPA symbols. I'll try to correct it. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 03:29, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Nope, can't do it. Feel free to update, . Laterthanyouthink (talk) 03:32, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
 * It was correct before per the guidelines in this area; see my edit summary there. Graham 87 16:09, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Coober Pedy


text:
Talk:Gabès

Jews as collaborators
The following statement may seem uncalled-for or undocumented or insufficiently neutered: " Modern Tunisians accuse the Jews of being collaborators with the French." I entered it as a replacement for the original Arab assertion "With the help of its Jewish community (The Jews were promised trade and commerce advantages over Muslims from the French if they help in occupying the town)" which is apparently the official Tunisian assessment. Please do not remove this telling statement from the entry. Wetman 10:28, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Qabis.png
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Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 03:53, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Gabès


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Talk:Dynamic range

Editorialisation
Who put in the editorialisation on language? e.g.:

 * For example, when referring to the range of sound intensity that can be reproduced by an audio system, dynamic range says no more than range used by itself. What actually "ranges" from inaudible to loud is sound intensity, not a quality called dynamic. Thus sound intensity range would be a more useful and accurate term in this case.

The word "dynamic" indicates the quantity can be expected to vary widely.

Unless you can show that this is in fact a matter of notable concern, with references, the section goes - David Gerard 10:28, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Who put it in, you ask? Doesn't the article history show that? Why would you ask that? That language seems designed to demean the contributor.

 * Second, why does my contribution warrant being called a rant, or editorialization? Comes rather close to a personal attack. If you disagree with the inclusion of a view or material, can you not refer to it in neutral, inoffensive terms?

 * Third, you say that "'dynamic' indicates the quantity can be expected to vary widely." That's simply not the case. Not all ranges vary "widely," as you suggest. Some indeed speak of a particular device as having a "limited dynamic range," turning a simple redundancy into an oxymoron as well, as you would use dynamic. (If you doubt this, Google "limited dynamic range" for 6700 web hits.)

 * Saying "dynamic range" to denote that something can vary (widely or not) is like saying "free" in "free gift" indicates that something is free. Sure, but the word "gift" already indicates that something is free. In fact, the word "range" already and sufficiently indicates that something can vary. "Dynamic" is superfluous. Can you see it now?

 * Why would the incontrovertable fact that dynamic range is a widely-used idiomatic, redundant term not be worth noting? Your disposal of the factual distinctions between the terms range, dynamics, and dynamic range was rather heavy-handed, in my view. I would appreciate having language issues restored to the Dynamic range article. Wikipedia is a good place for such knowledge. If you disagree, please offer a constructive alternative--something besides an axe. --NathanHawking 21:38, 2004 Oct 2 (UTC)

 * It's editorialisation as per No original research. That is, an article in Wikipedia is to be a secondary, or tertiary, source of information on a subject.

 * If your debate over the terminology dynamic range is to go in, provide references that show that this is sufficiently a matter of concern amongst experts in the matter that someone looking for an article to explain what "dynamic range" is really needs to know it. Particularly right up front in the lead section - are your (or the hypothetical reference's) concerns of such importance to the matter that they need to be the first thing the reader sees? I really think not. But show me references to the great debate over the terminology dynamic range and prove me wrong on this - David Gerard 21:59, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I see we are no longer discussing the factuality but now its originality. Fair enough.

 * I thought I was stating the obvious. But clearly the fact that you and others have difficulty seeing, at first glance, the pleonastic nature of the term accounts for its widespread use. So, am I the first to recognize this? Perhaps, though doubtful.

 * I don't think all things Wikipedic need to be the subject of a "great debate," but can agree that the language issue does not merit first mention. Does it, however, as a simple fact, deserve to be ignored?

 * In the redundancy article, for example, I inserted a section on language redundancies, and a short list of commonly used expressions. Am I obligated to find an already-published authority to justify my inclusion of terms like "past history," or is the fact that it's an obvious common redundancy sufficient?

 * As you have more experience on this project, your guidance is appreciated. I suggest you temper your use of offensive words like "rant," however, and stick to facts. As a newcomer, it will take me some time to gain perspective, and becoming adversarial and insulting will not assist that.

 * Do you have any suggestions on how we might appropriately include the simple fact that dynamic range is pleonastic and imprecise? --NathanHawking 23:05, 2004 Oct 2 (UTC)

 * I would say you haven't even shown it's a matter of concern for anyone other than yourself. That would surely be a first step before considering it of sufficient importance for the article.

 * Remember what it says on original research - merely being right isn't enough. - David Gerard 23:24, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * The use of language is of concern to many, and the use of redundancies in particular. See pleonasm. Here is one authority's view. Does a particularly common techno-redundancy have to meet with your approval to merit listing? Or must Professor Brians obligingly place it on his list and in his next edition to qualify? --NathanHawking 00:30, 2004 Oct 3 (UTC)

 * As an outsider (I just contributed the little bit about Dynamic Range in music) I can see that the problem here is that NathanHawking things this is an article, whilst to David Gerard it's a simple disambiguation page. I think the question is whether there is enough information about 'Dynamic Range' to warrant an indivual entry.  If Nathan's edits (as I suspect) are designed to point out the ambiguity in the term, but would not have merited mentioning if there was not an article with this name, then this info is not relevant here (and there should be only a passing-reference to it in the individual articles, if relevant).  If this is not the case then Dynamic Range should contain the information that needs to be put forward, and Dynamic range (disambig) should be created to link to the specific meanings.  --HappyDog 01:55, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * No, I think it's an article ... but having been around the term "dynamic range" for many years myself (in the field of sound), I've never encountered a debate about the usefulness of the term. If the term's validity isn't a matter for debate anywhere else, then it shouldn't be one in Wikipedia either, full stop. Wikipedia is not a platform for advocacy - David Gerard 12:15, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I am around this term all the time, and have never heard anyone dispute the usefulness of the term. Perhaps there is some confusion about the meaning of the word "dynamic"?  I believe it comes from the musical definition of dynamics:

 * "Of or relating to variation of intensity, as in musical sound."

 * and not from the "varying" definition:

 * "Characterized by continuous change, activity, or progress: a dynamic market."

 * Perhaps this is why someone thinks the term is redundant? So, no, it's not a "range of the quantity dynamic", but it is a "range of dynamics".  - Omegatron 13:55, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)

 * It's a "range of dynamics?" Does that really say any more than range or dynamics alone? Why not use the expressions "lifetime length" or "altitude height" or "time period"? (That last one shows up rather frequently, in fact.)

 * Certainly. Just like "fish" ≠ "tuna fish", "lifetime length" ≠ "length.  "Dynamic range" and "range" are certainly not the same thing.  Range is just a general term, and needs a qualifier to tell what it is a range of.  In this case it is a range of dynamics, or loudness, or intensities, or volume.  (I believe using it in reference to signal level or whatever stemmed from the original use referring to sound level.  That is just an assumption, though, not a researched fact.) - Omegatron

 * Your formulations are true, but misleading you into drawing the wrong conclusion. More appropriate representations are:
 * "tuna fish" = (tuna(a fish)fish) and
 * "lifetime length" = (lifetime(entailing a length)length) and
 * "dynamic range" = (dynamic(entailing a range)range)
 * Read your own definition again: Dynamics is "variation in force or intensity"--dynamics carries its own connotation of range, which is why it is often used alone in music. Something cannot be dynamic without having a range--range is INHERENT in dynamics. If, in music, dynamics specifically denotes loudness, as we've agreed, it does not denote SOLELY loudness. A FIXED loudness would not be dynamics, unless the measure is zero dynamics. See BELOW.--NathanHawking 03:33, 2004 Oct 5 (UTC)

 * I've had a lifetime of exposure to the term as well. I don't dispute the usefulness of the term as idiom, any more than I dispute the usefulness of "tuna fish" and "future plans." Those terms are "useful," but they are also pleonasms.

 * I've also had a lifetime of identifying redundancies, blatant and subtle, and have discovered that familiarity with a term often blinds us to its linguistic nature. (Just yesterday I noticed that "tuna fish" got by a Boy's Life editor. They flow trippingly off the tongue with nary a second thought.)

 * Yes, "dynamic" does indeed denote the potential for or presence of variation. No argument there. But so does range.

 * But this use of dynamic is the definition that pertains to loudness of a sound, not to variation itself. Perhaps this is what you actually have a problem with?  That dynamics should not have two different definitions? - Omegatron

BELOW
 * That's the flaw in your reasoning: Dynamics does NOT "pertain to loudness of a sound," per se. If I say a sound loudness is 50 dB, I have said absolutely NOTHING about the dynamics. Once again, M-W defines dynamics as: "variation and contrast in force or intensity (as in music)." Get it?

 * If I say that the range of loudness is from 0 dB to 110 dB, then I have spoken of music dynamics or loudness range. In the context of music, when I speak of dynamics I've already invoked the concept range implicitly. In music, dynamic range is a redundancy. See?

 * It's probably worth noting that your argument along this line has uncovered one interesting distinction. In using dynamic range in photography and other fields, the word dynamic is probably the useless word. In music, though, since dynamics is the term which relates to sound intensity and connotes range, range is the useless word. Interesting. --NathanHawking 03:33, 2004 Oct 5 (UTC)

 * Range is "6 a : the space or extent included, covered, or used : SCOPE b : the extent of pitch covered by a melody or lying within the capacity of a voice or instrument." (M-W Online.) Note that even M-W is defining them--range and the musical dynamics to which you refer--as synonymous.

 * The range of an instrument refers to its frequency range, not intensity range. A perfect example of why dynamic range and range are not the same thing. :-) - Omegatron

 * In my haste, I misspoke. You're right--and wrong. You're right about dynamics and range referring to different things in music. In the context of music, dynamics refers to loudness range and range refers to frequency range. But you're wrong in trying to have it both ways.

 * Look what you're doing jamming dynamics and range together in the context of music. Standing alone, you say, range refers to tonal range, but in the phrase dynamic range you are implying that range has the generic, nonspecific meaning. And you're exactly right. Which is what makes you exactly wrong about dynamic range. Dynamics, in music, refers to the range of loudness (not just loudness). Dynamic(s) range means "the range of loudness range." Think about it.--NathanHawking 08:51, 2004 Oct 5 (UTC)

 * In other words, what does dynamic range say that range alone, or dynamics alone, does not? In the vast majority of cases, nothing. (See my talk page for a description of a rare instance where dynamic range might be a accurate term, though, if you're interested.)

 * (I'm adding this later as an afterthought: dynamic range would also be nonredundant if used in contrast with the terms narrow range or limited range. "In contrast," we might say, "this instrument has a dynamic range." Here we use dynamic as an adjective, and not a noun, where dynamic range is really a redundant noun phrase.--NathanHawking 22:43, 2004 Oct 4 (UTC)

 * Having said that, I agree with David that this may be an obscure, perhaps even original, observation. So I won't press for a lengthy Wikipedia entry on the view.--NathanHawking 19:54, 2004 Oct 4 (UTC)

 * From the dictionary:
 * range: An amount or extent of variation
 * dynamics: Variation in force or intensity, especially in musical sound.

 * Concatenating them together gives a good definition of dynamic range:

 * dynamic range: An amount or extent of variation in force or intensity, especially in musical sound. - Omegatron 22:49, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)

 * Not really. You're really just repeating yourself, hard as it is to see. Don't concatenate--factor!

 * The definition of a redundancy is when one term is implied or subsumed in the other. Read your own definition again and answer two questions:
 * 1. Can you have dynamics without variation?
 * 2. Can you have a range without variation?
 * The answer to both is no: variation is the concept common to both; one is implicit in the other; neither enlarges upon the other without redundancy. When used as a noun phrase, range tells you no more about a dynamic, and dynamic tells you no more about a range. Dynamics is not a type of variation range--it IS a variation range.

 * Many in music are content to use the term dynamics alone, since the loudness and range are both implicit, without the use of range. Similarly, a vocalist, in the context of her highest and lowest notes, might speak of having a range of three octaves, without resorting to tonal dynamic range or somesuch. The literature of music is filled with such useage. That demonstrates that either word alone is sufficient, that combining them conveys no more conceptual content--the very definition of a redundancy.

 * If it's not clear by now, I suggest reading this again in a month. It's surprising to me how difficult this is for some to grasp--but if I'm correct, then that difficulty might explain why the term has lain unnoticed by other commentators on language... it's a bit more subtle than I'd realized. --NathanHawking 01:24, 2004 Oct 5 (UTC)

 * This discussion is getting kind of ridiculous. :-)  Are you sure you know what these terms mean?  Dynamics means a variation in intensity.  Range means a limit to a variation.  Dynamic range is the limit of variation of intensity.  It defines where the variation in intensity stops.  It defines an upper and lower bound for the variation, usually in a precise, numerical way.  For music, sound pressure level range is certainly a valid synonym.  Range by itself is not.  Dynamics by itself is not.  (Be careful in your quest to eliminate redundancies that you aren't removing the subtle meaning of the words.  Remember 1984?  :-) ) - Omegatron 13:41, Oct 5, 2004 (UTC)

 * As you suggest, the discussion has become repetitive. Now you are suggesting that without the term range, dynamics would suggest a variation without limits. Sorry, I don't buy that. Merriam-Webster sees fit to define dynamics without the use of range. Why can't you?

 * I admit to zeal in spotting redundancies, but I'd offer similar advice: be careful that in your zeal to preserve a familiar term you don't ignore the actual meaning of the words. I think, beyond my response(s) to HappyDog, I'll let it go at that.--NathanHawking 22:29, 2004 Oct 5 (UTC)

 * As a musician, dynamics, range and dynamic range have three distinct meanings in use (regardless of whether this is technically correct in linguistic/dictionary terms). This is what they mean to musicians the world over:
 * Dynamics: The markings on the page, e.g. f, mp, pianissimo.
 * Range: The range of notes an instrument can play. Similar to frequency range, but only frequencies that occur in the standard western 12-tone scale are valid, and it is expressed in terms of notes: e.g. 3 octave range, 18 semi-tone range.
 * Dynamic range: The difference in the maximum and minimum dynamic in a piece of music, or the range of dynamics an instrument can express (e.g. a harpsichord has a fixed dynamic range, a harp has a small dynamic range and a piano has a large dynamic range.
 * I hope that helps --HappyDog 15:04, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Can you cite a source which claims that dynamics refers only to the markings on a page? I doubt it. Near as I can tell, you made up your own definitions, no offense.

 * Wikkipedia Dynamics (music) says: In music, the word dynamics refers to the volume of the sound. (NOT just to the markings on a page.)

 * The first music dictionary I checked says: Dynamics - Varying degrees of loud and soft.

 * The Virginia Tech dictionary says: The loudness or softness of a composition. It actually draws a distinction between dynamics and the markings. It also uses dynamic contrast but not dynamic range.

 * Musicnet Dictionary says: dynamics: The degrees of softness or loudness in music indicated by signs or words on the score. (Indicated by, not the marks themselves.)

 * The Austin Symphony glossary hardly limits it to the symbols: Dynamics: The degrees of loudness or softness in a musical work, and the symbols that represent them.

 * That's just the first five places I looked. And not one of them used the term dynamic range. Even if you could find some musical reference works which use the term dynamic range to describe loudness range, that would only prove that it's used, not that it is not pleonasitic idiom.--NathanHawking 22:29, 2004 Oct 5 (UTC)

 * As I clearly stated these are definitions in use, not dictionary definitions. They are based on the empirical evidence of having studied and performed music for most of my life.  I know that most people who have studied music, but not necessarily linguistics, would agree with these definitions, and would recognise the distinction to be made between them.  I would note that you are correct in that "dynamics" in this sense is a shorthand for "dynamic markings", but nevertheless it is a shorthand adopted by most musicians, probably without considering what it is shorthand for.  It is also worth noting that this is the sense in which it is used in the term "dynamic range", which should be considered "the range of the dynamic markings".  Remember that the difference between pp and ff is a relative one, determined by the performer or conductor and their interpretation of the markings, not by the markings themselves.  The term "dynamic range" is also required to distinguish it from "pitch range", which for a musician is the usual meaning of "range" on its own --HappyDog 04:33, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Once again, I meant no offense. But dictionaries and glossaries are ultimately based upon usage, not dictated by "linguists." And for Wikipedia purposes, we must go with what references say about meanings, as Wikipedia is not a primary source. If your definitions reflect general usage but are at odds with musical dictionaries and glossaries, we'd have to go with the published references until they catch up with actual usage.
 * Beyond that, I think the dynamic range as language subject has been well covered by everything else on this talk page.--NathanHawking 22:03, 2004 Oct 6 (UTC)

 * Interestingly, my 1942 edition of the Oxford Companion to Music doesn't even mention the term Dynamics :) --HappyDog 22:51, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Webster's 1913 edition says of dynamics: "3. (Mus.) That department of musical science which relates to, or treats of, the power of tones." When dynamics were first annotated in music is well-known. But I can find only speculation as when the term dynamics (or some non-English equivalent) was first used to describe that quality and notation.
 * Omegatron's speculation that dynamic range (as a deliberately conjoined term and not an accidental juxtaposition) was first used in music is of interest, but I'm beginning to wonder if it might not have actually originated with audio/electronics and since cross-fertilized music, to the degree musicians actually use it. But I've seen no evidence to support either hypothesis. --NathanHawking 23:57, 2004 Oct 6 (UTC)

 * And I believe the other applications of the term descended from the musical term, first in audio reproduction equipment, then other electronic equipment, etc. Does anyone have an idea of how we can find this out for certain? - Omegatron 15:34, Oct 5, 2004 (UTC)

 * The first ten musical references I checked did not use the term dynamic range, only dynamics and dynamic contrast. I eventually stopped looking from boredom. Can you actually find a musical reference which uses dynamic range? Your thesis that the term descended from musical use, which I've heard elsewhere, would seem dependent upon it actually being used by the musical community.
 * Dynamic range is in wide use, whatever its origin. 650,000 Google web hits. I should emphasize that I actually have no more objection to the expression than I do any other idiomatic term. I only wish to note that it IS idiomatic and pleonastic--apparently in a way that's hard to understand.--NathanHawking 22:29, 2004 Oct 5 (UTC)

The article is wrong
Under "Audio" the voltage values are subtracted where the ratio should be used. dB subtraction would also be correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.166.82.213 (talk) 15:12, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

 * I assume we're talking about $$20 \times \log_{10} \left(\frac{\rm 5\,V}{10 \, \mu \mathrm{V}}\right) = 20 \times \log_{10}(500000) = 20 \times 5.7 = 114 \,\mathrm{dB}$$
 * It looks right now. ~Kvng (talk) 21:14, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Definition
(this is my first time contributing, so be easy on me, but feel free to correct me)

I was wondering, since the defintion says "ratio between the smallest and largest possible values of a changeable quantity", doesn't that mean dyn. range is almost always infinite? For analogue quantities noise can be seen as a lower boundary, but theroetically many variables aren't limited upwards.

So my suggestion is that it should say "smallest and largest occurring values...". Xanadooo (talk) 23:08, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Analog systems have upper bounds. Analog electronics can't produce an output larger than their power supply. The needle pops out of a phonograph groove with too much excursion. Particles in a magnetic tape saturate. Etc. ~Kvng (talk) 21:14, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Dynamic range of Kodak Vision3
While the original source for Vision3 having 13 stops of dynamic range may be invariably lost (indeed, the link isn't even available on Wayback), there's now this statement by Kodak on their website, according to which, 10-bit scanners (per channel, thus making it 30-bit overall) are not capable of capturing the full dynamic range of Vision3, and that it requires rather 16-bit scanners (per channel, i. e. 48-bit overall) instead. Now, while our article on color depth states that such represents a range of c. 282 trillion colors (and that even the best sensors of digital cameras don't go higher than 12-bits per channel), it doesn't give us a formula to convert number of colors into stops of dynamic range. Would anybody here know that formula? --2003:EF:170A:9213:2599:F25D:5864:DC67 (talk) 20:38, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

 * Each stop is a doubling (or halving) of light so stops are directly relatable to bits. The way you're counting bits for dynamic range is incorrect; you just count one of the color channels: A 10-bit scanner is 10 stops. A 16-bit scanner is 16 stops. The original claim of 13 stops dynamic range is consistent with the scanner information. This source indicates film negative is 12-15 stops but once you've done something useful with it, you're down to 6-8 stops. Conventional video and digital images are 8 bits. HDR10 uses 10 bits. ~Kvng (talk) 15:47, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Can someone add this reference?
I don't know how to so if someone knows how to add references, this is the reference for the "stops" of a cellphone camera in the table near the bottom of the page:

https://luminous-landscape.com/of-phones-pixels-and-photons-why-a-100-mp-cell-phone-is-not-a-gfx-100/ 2600:1700:8830:8DF0:E9DB:3EF5:E0EF:E7F8 (talk) 07:48, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Dynamic range