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Talk:Ladder logic

Trends in Use
There is no information here about who uses ladder logic in the sense of engineer demographics, a geographic sense, or controls company. I would like to see some discussion on that topic here. I would argue that ladder is all but dead outside of the US and within the US its use perpetuated almost exclusively by controls engineers over the age of 40 that grew up with Allen Bradly. I base that claim on my work in the industry in Germany, Austria, US, China, and various Latin and South American countries with several controls platforms. I have only seen ladder logic come out of US OEMs (not just on AB hardware), with everywhere else using IEC Structured Text, ANSI C, or automatic code generation from SimuLink. Within the US, ladder seems to only be used if the customer or OEM is or was dealing heavily with AB products. In addition, young engineers (nearly all of them proficient in text based programming regardless of their degree) seem to universally dislike ladder, even years after becoming proficient with it. In the US, I've seen integrators (whose engineers tend to be younger) quote 20% more to write a project in ladder vs a text based language and OEMs pay it. In Europe I have seen customers walk away from US OEMs that won't program in IEC ST or ANSI C.

I think the days of programming like you're using relays and coils are just about over; the new blood hates it, it takes longer, and the old blood is retiring. Companies still generating ladder code are setting themselves up for support issues down the road when they have to train new engineers in a language no one uses anymore for machines that aren't really that old. 173.67.240.90 (talk) 16:12, 25 April 2011 (UTC)Felix
 * You know what to do. Cite it and write it. --Wtshymanski (talk) 17:36, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

The analogy between logical propositions and relay contact status is due to Shannon I would say Mr. Bool (Boolean algebra) plus Mr. de Morgan (de Morgan's laws) would be here more appropriate.

...I put in a few extra details and had a bit of a hack around- let me know if you want me to expand it some more - Scampiandchips

Language or Tool?
Seems to me this is more of a programming tool than a language. It's about as much a programming language as a television remote.

if you want...
...I could take some screen shots of your logic as implemented in Rockwell programming software and post 'em here...

nand?
is this

---[\]---[\]---       X     Y

really X NAND Y ?

isn't it (NOT X) AND (NOT Y) which actually means X NOR Y?

''Yes, you're right. Fixed.''

standard contact symbols?
The article currently has a mix of contact symbols: --[ ]--    X

--| |--    Y

--][--   Z

They all mean the same thing, right?

Should we standardize on one type ? The  seems least likely to interfere with Wikipedia formatting (so we don't need   tags).

(Note that the  "coil symbol" at the right of the rung is *supposed* to look different -- it does mean something different).

--DavidCary 18:06, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Agreed - I'll admit I was a bit confused by all the different symbols to begin with.--Rehnn83 14:10, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Normally Open COIL?
What the heck does this mean? A coil is just an electomagnet. It can have contacts that are NO or NC but it can't be either. right? TomCerul 18:11, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
 * This is probably better called a "not" coil - if a not coil is energized by a rung, its normally-open contacts are open and its normally-closed contacts are closed (a regular coil will have NO closing and NC opening). I ran across this on a Reliance Automate 35, where it was extensively used to save memory - though it made the resulting programs very hard to read (especially so as there was no documentation or variable names displayed by the programming panel that could have alerted you to the weirdness). I had to write my own documentation software for that machine as we only had the one and the manufacturer didn't support anything better. I'll see if I can fix the text in the article. --Wtshymanski 17:41, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree, it's a NOT coil. The proper use of NOT coils arises from the concept of "failsafe". One example is in machine tools. There is a circuit called an E-STOP string. All of the safety elements on the machine will have a set of NC contacts and be wired in series. The hydraulic pressure is NOT too low. The safety gates are NOT open. The drawbar that holds the cutter is NOT loose. If NO contacts were used, the control wouldn't be able to tell if a wire in the string were broken. In the old days, the string would control a relay. The output of that relay would go immediatly to another relay to be negated. Seán 03:51, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Odd. We did failsafe design but we'd just use the other set of contacts on the relay. We ended up saying "Normally Open, Held Closed" a lot. TomCerul 21:36, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with TomCerul - a "normally open coil" is a misnomer. Coils are neither open or closed. It's the contacts that are normally open or normally closed.

I don't think the terminology in the present version of the "Example of Sample Ladder Logic Program" section is right. "Regular contact" to me is a "normally open contact" and the "not contact" is what I would call a "normally closed contact." I've never seen a not coil although that doesn't mean some LL version doesn't have it. I don't think RSLogic or Modsoft had one. There maybe places where such terminology is used by I haven't seen them. PhanuelB (talk) 16:06, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Latch Example
Someone added something to the last example on latches, and it sounds contradictory. It should be fixed for consistency. I'm pretty sure the first start/stop button figure is accurate. - ninjayeti

I believe the -- (stop) button should be reversed: -(/)- otherwise it doesn't seem to make sense. 209.217.120.155 (talk) 20:11, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't change it. Read the description. The physical button is wired on an NC contact. The PLC input is energized until someone pushes the button. When a thoughtful reader understands this, he/she will have gone a long way toward understanding what PLC programming is like. --Wtshymanski (talk) 21:21, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

 * The whole concept of ladder logic and the use of relay contact symbols in the logic ladder to "test" the state of the input the contact is representing is not the physical way the device is wired (as in the case of a normally closed STOP button) but how you want to test it. The test for a normally closed STOP button is an ON test and thus it passes the logic power when not pushed and breaks the logic when pushed OFF. I use the NO-ON method for which ladder contact to use, ie when testing for an ON or closed state of the field device it is an NO contact, -| |--, for ON or NOON for short. This works very well to remember the right contact to use - Ian Hamilton-Walker, Process/PLC Trainer, Saudi Arabia. 23 March 2010.

 * The "run" rung is incorrect for ladder logic, according to the description (it would be correct for relay logic, however). When the stop button is in the normal state, meaning the circuit is closed, the input of the PLC is on (under the assumption that the circuit is directly wired to the PLC's input).  This means that the stop contact should be shown as a normally open contact in the logic so that the stop button circuit must be opened, which turns off the PLC's input, in order to break the latch.  I'm drawing from years of experience as a PLC programmer...  Sept. 9, 2011

EDIT: I fixed this -- it's showing correctly now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.52.215.172 (talk) 22:21, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Fixed again. Four years on, and we still find the odd person not reading the hidden comments. Perhaps these changes come from poeple who've never been called at 1 AM to come troubleshoot a problem with a PLC...it's a brutal but effective form of training. (One soon learns it's hardly ever the program that broke.) --Wtshymanski (talk) 14:22, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

I just came to this page and since I am learning ladder logic for the first time, I was also initially confused by the NC stop switch.
 * I've found a specific section in the reference "Chapter 6: ladder logic" by Tony R. Kuphaldt that clarified my understanding. About 80% through the page (search for "reversal of logic") he describes the change to the external wiring and ladder logic when the design is changed from a NO stop switch to a NC stop switch.  The point is that ladder logic operates on the inputs to the PLC, not on the pressed or released state of the device.
 * I believe most of the confusion stems from naming the input "stop" whether it is connected to a NO switch or a NC switch. Naming the input "stop" or "stop pressed" makes sense when a NO switch is connected to the "stop" input, and the NC contact controlled by the "stop" input is in series with the run coil.  The name "not stop" or "stop released" is clearer for when a NC switch is connected to the "not stop" input and the NO contact controlled by the "not stop" input is connected in series with the run coil.
 * I think there is a learning opportunity here for future readers. I would like to attempt to add a short explanation to the motor start-stop example to explain why the ladder logic is correct as presented.  This might improve understanding of this concept and end the incorrect revisions.
 * I will monitor this talk page for further comments before I proceed. This will be my first significant contribution to Wikipedia.  I am open for suggestions.

Asimovfan (talk) 01:32, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
 * This is a great example precisely because so many people seem to think it's wrong. Consider green normally open start button on bit 1 of the PLC, red normally closed stop button on bit 2. With nobody pressing any buttons, you'd see only bit 2's light on. Looking at the PLC program you'd see the NO symbols for bit 1 turned off, and the NO symbols for bit 2 turned ON.  If you press the green button on bit 1, the NO symbol in the PLC program is true, and the rung goes true. It stays true after the green button is released, until you press the red button.  Then the PLC bit 2 input goes low, and the normally-open PLC symbol is off, interrupting rung continuity (and stopping whatever was driven by the rung).  You don't really understand PLC symbols till you can understand this example. --Wtshymanski (talk) 23:26, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Graphics
Just made a few minor changes and additions. I can make graphical examples of the ladder logic shown in the article. However, this would increase the load on the servers, and the present ASCI graphics seem to be sufficent. Also, I am considering re-writing the article to be more streamined and organized. Thoughts?Dudecon 18:26, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Decent SVG graphics (or at least PNG) would be appreciated. I wouldn't worry about the server load. If you feel like fixing the article, do it. You might want to see the PNGs on the Spanish and Italian versions of the ladder logic page. —Pengo 09:31, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Orientation of ladder diagrams
''The name is based on the observation that programs in this language resemble ladders, with two vertical "rails" and a series of horizontal "rungs" between them. Ladder logic is popular in North America while in Europe it is more common to draw horizontal rails along the top and bottom of the page and vertical rungs sequentially from left to right.''

Really? PLC programming software is not different (text localization aside) for American and European markets, and all the systems I've used (in Europe) draw and print out programs in the same way, with vertical rails. Horizontal rails are perhaps more common for electrical schematics in Europe, but no-one cares that ladder is drawn in the other orientation. --DavidHopwood 23:44, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

merge "relay logic" into "ladder logic"
What do you think about merging "relay logic" into "ladder logic"?

The "relay logic diagram" on the relay logic page looks almost exactly like one of the "ladder logic diagrams" on the ladder logic page.

As far as I can tell, the subtle difference between the 2 heavily overlapping terms is:
 * "relay logic" implies that something really is built with physical relays (almost always designed using "ladder logic" diagrams).
 * "ladder logic" is a style of schematic diagram, standardizing the layout of "relay switches" and "relay coils". Any particular ladder logic diagram could be implemented with physical relays, but nowadays is more often emulated with a microprocessor interpreting the diagram and simulating the relays.

In this case, the thing, the diagram describing the thing, and something else that simulates that thing, seem closely related enough to cover all in one article.

--68.0.124.33 (talk) 16:47, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I do not think it is a good idea to merge relay logic with ladder logic, since they are two distinct applications of control theory. Ladder logic is used primarily for PLC applications and represents one of four main programming methods for PLC. Ladder logic is restricted to very basic symbology for device representation (i.e. coils and contacts for outputs and inputs). Relay logic is used to graphically represent a control circuit schematic diagram and utilizes a much wider array of symbolic references (i.e. motors, solenoid valves, etc.) Carl142 (talk) 17:12, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Relay_logic"

If one is a restricted form of the other, then I think we should merge them -- in the same way that "hicube boxcar" is one kind of boxcar, and both are described in the same encyclopedia article. --68.0.124.33 (talk) 23:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Relay logic is not a restricted form of ladder logic. They are completely different entities. One is a hardwired, traditional method of control interface, while the other is a software programming language requiring a microprocessor-based control system. There have been countless books written on this subject by authors such as Simpson, Stenerson, Petruzella, and every one of them concurs that relay logic and ladder logic are completely separate examples of control system technology. Merging them would not only create confusion, but it would be highly inaccurate.38chad (talk) 13:04, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

No merge. A computer language and logic family are different things. Ray Van De Walker (talk) 19:30, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

No merge. Agreed. Ladder logic != relay logic. I can write a program for an L63 processor, but I can't wire an enclosure. That's the difference in my eyes. You folk who actually know what you're doing can handle the relays and switches, us juniors can do the programming. Tarkaan (talk) 10:17, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely agree with all of you guys above - don't merge. Just because they LOOK the same, doesn't follow that they MEAN the same!!! However, what _can_ be appropiate would be to add a note somewhere in relay logic saying that the syntax of the ladder language has been highly inspired by relay logic, or something like that, as that is really the case. Or just mention ladder under "See also" in that article. 130.237.57.80 (talk) 14:55, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

The "not" symbol
So far, in the examples on this page, you've been using --[\]-- as a NOT, when all the ladder packaged I have used (DirectSoft, AllenBradley..) use a forward slash, as in --[/]--. Even the example picture uses forward slashes for NOT. Should this be fixed? --Mainstreetmark (talk) 18:48, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I have taken courses on the subject and ladder logic and relay logic are 2 different things it would be like comparing the programming language C+ to a circuit board —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.53.64.16 (talk) 17:38, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Example of a Simple Ladder Logic Program
I added a a couple of words to the descriptions of the normally open and normally closed contact instruction descriptions. Contact instructions are controlled not only by coil instructions whose addresses they bear, but by input signals as well. A minor addition, of course. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jharris693 (talk • contribs) 16:09, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Ladder logic symbols
Our resident edit warrior Wtshymanski keeps altering the diagram for the Industrial start/stop logic to the following (my red emphasis)

--+[ ]--+--- -[ ]- ---   |   start |   stop    run |        |                     +[ ]--+                          run ---[ ]--        run             motor

It is not clear why he keeps altering the the stop button symbol to that for a normally open contact. The edit summaries suggest that Wtshymanski believes that the "-[\]-" symbol is not the ladder logic symbol for a NC contact (he actually said so). There is also his alteration of the embedded comment where he reworded it to say, "If you change the NO stop to NC, the arrangement won't work. The stop button is physically wired as a closed contact". What does Wtshymanski believe that a 'normally closed' contact is if it is not wired as a 'closed contact'?

It would seem rather pointless to use the same symbol for both a NO and NC contact as that would mean that the diagram would be essentially useless, as no one would be able to figure out which contact was which. Although obvious in this example, it would not be so obvious on a very complex logic system using a large number of buttons. Ladder logic diagrams were developed in response to the increasing complexity of programmable logic devices, but the logic depicted could be implemented in relay logic if one felt the urge. Indeed the start/stop switch example is still often implemented using two push buttons and a relay (or contactor) using exactly the correct logic depicted below.

--+[ ]--+[\]   |   start |   stop    run |        |                     +[ ]--+                          run ---[ ]--        run             motor

Here: the stop button is correctly depicted as a normally closed contact, which is exactly what it has to be for the logic to work. Using Wtshymanski's normally open contact requires the operator to press both buttons to start the machine, but it will stop again the moment he releases the stop button.

Despite several editors restoring the correct version of the diagram, Wtshymanski went on to delete the statement in the text about the stop button being a normally closed contact with some cryptic edit summary about fixing the button to work with the program (?). The button was fine as it was. I B Wright (talk) 13:35, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

 * The good news is that instead of trying to re-insert his fringe pseudoscience with edit warring, he at least tried something else. It doesn't solve the basic problem, which is that Wtshymanski so often holds views that other editors -- sometimes a couple, sometimes dozens -- say is wrong and (this is important) he cannot find a source to support, but at least it isn't an immediately-blockable behavior like edit warring is.

 * Eventually this ongoing situation is going to result in some sort of administrator intervention, but until that happens the best thing you and I can do is to remain completely within Wikipedia guidelines and policies ourselves, I advise that anyone who deals with Wtshymanski carefully study Fringe theories and Requests for arbitration/Fringe science. Make sure that your own behavior is beyond reproach and encourage other participants to do the same. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:09, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

 * I do not see how producing a diagram using exactly the same symbols for operationally different devices can form any sort of 'fringe theory' (or have I missed something?). It is the equivalent of drawing a schematic for (say) a six transistor superhet receiver with just an empty rectangular box for every component in the set.  In this case, as far as I can see, Wtshymanski is just plain wrong.  It is not as though that has not happened before on more occasions than either of us care to count.  I B Wright (talk) 18:35, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

 * You might want to read Why Wikipedia cannot claim the earth is not flat for more insight on this. Just as we cannot say that the earth isn't flat, we cannot say that Wtshymanski's theories about the use of a normally open vs. normally closed pushbutton in that circuit are wrong. Instead we must treat them like we treat everything from Quantum Mechanics to Astrology; we evaluate how many reliable sources say that the circuit works as Wtshymanski claims it does (none found so far) and then we evaluate how widely-held the fringe theory is (apparently, nobody but Wtshymanski thinks that the circuit will work with a normally open stop button), apply Neutral point of view, and conclude that the theory has no place in Wikipedia. The burden is then upon Wtshymanski to either provide a citation to a reliable source that supports his theory, or a citation to a reliable source that shows that his theory is widely-held. This may seem strange, but that's how Wikipedia works, and with good reason; administrators who have no knowledge of ladder logic don't have to figure out who is right, just who has the consensus and who has the citations backing them up. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:46, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

 * I think the problem here is not so much anything to do with 'fringe theory' or anything like that, but more that Wtshymanski has not quite grasped what information the ladder logic diagram is really trying to convey. I think I can see what his thinking is.  Let my try to explain.

 * If we stick with the industrial start/stop example (as it is the one that is giving the problems), the START button interface with our programmable logic device (PLD) is easily created as follows (if my ASCII art works)

+V |  |            -   |            |   +---| |--+---| START |  |            -   |           | |  |     PLD R | | | | | |            -            |            |            -

 * Quite straight forward and using the normally open button switch shown in the original diagram. The STOP button is a NOT function and can be achieved either of two ways.

+V                                 +V |                                  |     |            -                  |            -   |            | ____                 |            |    +---|/|--+---| STOP                 +---| |--+--o| STOP |  |              or               |   | -  |                               -   |           | |  |     PLD                      | |  |     PLD R | | |                              | |  | | | |                              | |  |            -                                   -               |                                   |            |                                   |            -                                   -       (a)                                 (b)

 * In diagram (a) a normally closed button switch is used so that the (NOT STOP) input is held high until the button is pressed when the pull down resistor R pulls it low. That is: a logic true input to the (NOT STOP) is saying that we do not want the motor stopped.  An alternative configuration is shown at (b) where the STOP input to the PLD is made active low.  In this case, the pull down resistor R pulls the input low, until the button is pressed forcing it high.  In this case, the active low input means that when the input is low, we do not want the motor stopped (or taking it high stops the motor).   The NOT part of the function is thus obtained either from the choice of push button switch or the within the PLD itself by inverting the logic of the input.

 * Reading through much of the above, it seems that Wtshymanski may be treating the PLD as having an active low input which would therefore require a normally open push button switch (and is ammending the diagram to suit). It would also appear that Wtshymanski is not alone in this viewpoint as at least one other user (Asimovfan) has expressed a similar view.

 * The mistake here is to assume that the ladder logic diagram applies only to what is within the PLD itself and to ignore the outside world. This, of course, is not the case.  The ladder logic diagram (or indeed any logic diagram) serves to illustrate the complete logic system.  In this example the STOP function is a NOT STOP function and the diagram must reflect this if the guy implementing the design is to stand any chance of getting it right.  It is up to him to decide whether to implement it as in (a) or (b) above if there are no over-riding reasons why it should be one particular way.

 * To take the argument to a pedantic logical conclusion, the START function could be implemented like this.

+V |  |            -   |            | _____   +---|/|--+--o| START |  |            -   |           | |  |     PLD R | | | | | |            -            |            |            -
 * Here, the START input is now active low and thus a normally closed push button switch is required for the logic to work correctly. There is a NOT function in both the switch and the PLD.  They cancel each other and the system works correctly.  Using this argument, I could use the Wtshymanski logic and draw the full ladder diagram thus

---+---[/]---+---[ ]   |   start |   stop   run |        |                     +[ ]--+                          run ---[ ]--        run             motor

 * But this is just plain absurd and completely unclear as to what is going on. Although this simple diagram is easy to straighten out, a much more complex arrangement would be next to impossible.  DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 12:11, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

 * My only problem with your analysis is that one of the edit summaries made by Wtshymanski was, "wrong contact sense; the stop button is wired on a normally closed contact, so the PLC input is energized until you press the STOP button.". He was clearly thinking of your option (a) for the wiring of the stop button and therefore not the internal logic of the PLC.  It thus remains unclear why he kept substituting a normally open contact in the diagram when even his edit summary made it clear that he believed the contact was normally closed.  His embedded comment in the article of, "If you change the NO stop to NC, the arrangement won't work. The stop button is physically wired as a closed contact" does make it unclear what his thought process actually is.  I B Wright (talk) 12:38, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

 * In an ideal world, we would be able to discuss the above with Wtshymanski right here on the article talk page, figure out what he was thinking, and find a diagram/wording that everyone can agree on. Alas, as we have seen again and again, that isn't going to happen. Of course Wtshymanski could prove me wrong and start doing what WP:CONSENSUS tells us all to do, but I am not holding my breath. Because of this, when there is a clear consensus that Wtshymanski is wrong, our only option is to treat those particular edits the way the editors of our articles on astronomy treat contributions by an astrologer who refuses to discuss his edits. WP:FRINGE tells us what to in such a case. We must also take great care in case we are the ones who are wrong. Those cases are fairly easy to identify; when Wtshymanski is right, he provides citations to reliable sources backing up his theories. When he isn't, he fails to provide citations to reliable sources. There are a lot of sources that explain ladder logic. They all agree on how to diagram two momentary-contact pushbutton switches in series, they all agree on what the symbols are for normally-open and normally-closed, and the all agree on what happens when you wire two momentary-contact normally-open pushbutton switches in series and push one of them. Nothing happens. Thinking that something will happen is the phrenology of the ladder-logic universe. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:16, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

The door is always open for Wtshymanski to contribute to the discussion and present his supporting evidence. This will never change. However, to be fair to Wtshymanski, he has not been editing as regularly as he has in the past. It is therefore quite likely that he has not yet seen this thread and this could be why he has not responded. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 14:43, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

A table
A rung of ladder logic. Let's simplify it. Remember, the button wired to start has a normally open contact, and the button wired to stop is using the normally closed contact.

--Wtshymanski (talk) 18:10, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

 * [I could not see why this all turned red, but I have managed to fix it.]

 * The problem here is that your table is incomplete, too complex but mostly wrong. As has been pointed out, both your altered logic and the above table gives the situation where it is necessary to press both buttons to start the motor, and it is necessary to hold the STOP button to keep it running.  The logic in your diagram above the table is mostly correct but with the RUN hold input missing.  But your table is not the truth table that goes with that diagram.  It is also completely unnecessary to document the inverse of the button presses.  It is also very necessary to consider the extra RUN input to see the complete operation. The correct diagram to consider is.

START   STOP  COIL --+--] [--+--]/[---  |       |   +--] [--+      RUN

 * And the correct table (with the switching sequence in chronological order) is.

 * You must remember that the STOP button contact being closed is the FALSE condition and its symbol is therefore "--]/[--" to indicate that NOT function from a closed contact being TRUE. I B Wright (talk) 10:45, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

 * No it's much simpler than that. I can see what Wtshymanski has done.  In his example above, he has inverted the logic of the STOP button twice.  Once where a normally closed contact has been used in the push button switch (this makes the STOP (as an input) TRUE when the button is released and FALSE when pressed).  But he has inverted it again in the truth table where he has considered the "Examine OFF --]/[--input 2" status as the inverse of the "Examine ON --] [-- input 2" and made the input FALSE when the button is not pressed and TRUE when pressed (the equivalent of using an active low STOP input so that a low input is NOT STOP).  The two inversions cancel each other out so his logic is

(START OR RUN) AND NOT (NOT STOP)     or     (START OR RUN) AND STOP

 * which is exactly what his truth table says but not what is required for the system to actually work. The '-]/[-' symbol means that the STOP function is inverted (or NOT STOP).  This can either be by use of a NC push button switch or by implementing an active low input (but not both).  Even if an active low input is used with a normally open push button switch, the symbol in the ladder rung is still '-]/[-' to indicate that the input has to be inverted somewhere.  The diagram is the logic of the functionality not necessarily the physical construction of the push button switches.

 * It should be noted that in this example, the use of "NOT STOP" does not necessarily mean that we want the system not stopped, but that, from the logic standpoint, the STOP input is FALSE when we do want it stopped. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 12:02, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

 * Light bulb lights. That is a very good observation.  I looked at Wtshymanski's example above and immediately thought that something was obviously wrong with it, but totally failed to put my finger on it.  This was especially unforgiveable when I had actually provided the clue in my own post above when I provided a pedantic double inversion way of implementing the START function (redrawn for Wtshymanski's STOP here).

+V |  |            -   |            | ____   +---|/|--+--o| STOP |  |            -   |           | |  |     PLD R | | | | | |            -            |            |            - This will not work.

 * I believe that what confused me (and probably Wtshymanski as well) is the choice of STOP as the system variable for the stop function. It is immediately assumed that STOP=FALSE when the motor continues to run and STOP=TRUE when you want to stop it.  This might be the intuitive situation but not necessarily the situation in raw logic.  By having the STOP switch as a normally closed contact, the non intuitive STOP=FALSE when you want to stop the motor rules.  It might have been better to chose two arbitrary variable names such as (say) S1 and S2 where S1=START and S2=NOT STOP.  I B Wright (talk) 18:40, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Consider the following (incorrect - it will not work) diagram:

START    STOP  COIL ---+---] [---+---] [------    |         | (Incorrect) +---] [---+        RUN

Assume that the three switches are physically normally open switches and that they are physically wired as shown.

Things to keep in mind:
 * ladder logic predates PLCs, and can be used to describe a system implemented with series connections, parallel connections, and relays.

 * An OR condition can be implemented with two switches going to two PLC inputs with the OR in the program, or the OR condition can be implemented with two normally-open switches in series going to one PLC input. The ladder logic describes the logic, not the implementation.

Looking at the (incorrect) diagram above, a key point is that the PLC has no way of knowing that a single button was pushed. You can make the PLC input low true or high true, and it will not change the basic fact that the input to the PLC stays the same when you push one button.

Now in the case where you use two PLC inputs and the OR is in software, you can make the system work properly by changing the software, but in that case you have an diagram that does not reflect what the system does unless you change it too. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:06, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

 * I think you might find that an OR function is implemented by two (or more) normally open switches in parallel. The same switches in series is an AND function.  Your fundamental point is entirely sound though.  I B Wright (talk) 18:40, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

 * (Homer Simpson voice) D'oh! You are right, of course. I think there is a rule that any time you write something and then carefully proofread it, it will contain a silly mistake that makes you look like an idiot. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:15, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Now that we've wikified broadened the scope of the article to talk about wiring electromechanical relays as well as PLC programming, the description around the addition of the "emergency stop" button needs to be fixed to clarify what parts are software in the PLC and what parts are hardware. (If you are really concerned about a PLC stalling in mid-process, you would put your e-stop button as a hardware item between the contactor coil and its supply, not as just another bit in the PLC. If you have many contactors/outputs to de-energize in a hurry, you might have a hardware master control relay that controls power to the PLC outputs. This is far afield from the topic of this article, though.) We loosely speak of "contacts" as the examine on/examine off instructions in a PLC program, but if we're explaining hardware and software here, we need to be unambiguous between bits of metal clapping together and op-codes of a virtual machine.

We need a reference that the wiring for relay panels was called "ladder logic" before PLCs came along. I haven't read everything, but I don't recall reading this anywhere.

I also notice with delight that sacred consensus has finally agreed on the solution to XIC/XIO stop button PLC inputs that I suggested months ago; viz, get rid of the physical NC contact on the stop button. The system works! --Wtshymanski (talk) 16:42, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

 * The method of drawing the diagrams existed long before the term 'ladder logic' was coined to describe them. The symbols have evolved over the decades, but early diagrams using the method are recogniseably 'ladder logic' diagrams.  Because of this history, the diagrams are equally applicable to push button switches; relays and solid state logic devices.  DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 12:39, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Text turning red on you?
See Help desk for an explanation. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:36, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

 * That explained thing - sort of. The text was black right up to where Wtshymanski added his section "A table".  There was nothing that I could see between the black text above his post and the red text in his post that would have made it red.  The only thing that sprung to mind was DieSwartzPunkt's sig being a red link but deleting it did not solve the problem.  Interestingly, deleting the " " from my ASCII art above turns all the subsequent text red (as expected) but only up to Wtshymanski's post which reverts to black (not expected).  Weird!  However using the suggested " " works.

 * I assume that Wtshymanski noticed it but also could not figure out how to correct it, otherwise he probably would have done so. I B Wright (talk) 18:54, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I found another unclosed . Since is obsolete, I replaced it with font. I suspect the issue was caused by HTML Tidy attempting to fix the unclosed tags. --   Gadget850talk 19:15, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Problems in section Industrial START/STOP
1. In this section, the narrative appears to refer to the parens as "inputs", where they are actually outputs, and are described as outputs in the earlier section defining the symbols. Example: 'When the "run" input becomes true the seal-in "run" NO contact in parallel with the "start" NO contact will'

2. The second diagram, at the end of the section, doesn't make sense. It's supposed to show a latching scenario, but to do so the contacts/input labelled "Run" would have to be controlled by the rung's output. However, unlike the first example in this section, the output is not labelled Run, it's labelled "Motor", so from a diagram point-of-view, has nothing to do with the Run contacts/input.

Gwideman (talk) 12:15, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Additional Functionality Section - Statement in need of Clarification
Hi, I'm new here but I have a concern about one of the paragraphs under the "Additional Functionality" section. I think it may require further clarification.

The article states: "In this example, the system will count the number of times that the interior and remote unlock buttons are pressed. This information will be stored in memory locations A and B."

It then goes on to say: "Memory location C will hold the total number of times that the door has been unlocked electronically."

I believe that in this instance, it seems C will hold the total sum of the number of times that the remote unlock witch was closed, plus the total number of times that the interior unlock switch was closed.

If both switches must be simultaneously closed in order to open the door (not shown in example logic), then a counter to determine the number of times the door was opened would require different logic than just counting the sum of A and B...

To correct this, I would recommend including a disclaimer such as: "If both switches must be closed to electronically unlock the door, it should be assumed that the interior and remote locks are never switched closed independently from one another". Another solution would be to change the logic such that the counters are dependent on both switches being closed simultaneously, in which case, wouldn't it make more sense to just set a counter associated with the door unlock coil?

But then again, I could be very incorrect. I am just starting to learn about this (I currently have only read this wikipedia page for 5 minutes and skimmed over a description for a PLC Beginners E-Book)...

title: Talk:Ladder logic


text:
Michael Spilotro

Michael Peter "Micky" Spilotro (September 12, 1944 – June 14, 1986) was the younger brother of Anthony "Tony the Ant" Spilotro and was an associate of the Chicago organized crime organization referred to as "The Outfit".

Family background
Michael was born in Chicago, Illinois, on September 12, 1944. He was the son of Pasquale Spilotro, Sr. (1899–1954), a restaurant owner, and his wife, Antoinette. Michael had five brothers, Vincent, Victor, Pasquale "Pat" Jr., Tony and John.

He attended Burbank Elementary School in Austin, Chicago, and entered Charles P. Steinmetz Academic Centre in 1953 with his brothers Victor, Vincent, Anthony and Pasquale. Michael attended (what is now) Providence St. Mel School in East Garfield Park, Chicago from 1958 to 1962.

His parents, Pasquale Spilotro, Sr. (who emigrated from Triggiano, Italy and arrived at Ellis Island in 1914) and Antoinette Spilotro (who was a domineering mother), owned Patsy's Restaurant. Unlike most Italian immigrants, who settled in "The Patch," (located around Grand and Western Avenues), the Spilotros lived at 2152 North Melvina Avenue in Belmont Cragin, Chicago.

Mobsters such as Salvatore "Sam" Giancana, Jackie "The Lackey" Cerone, Gus Alex and Frank Nitti ("Frank the Enforcer") regularly dined at Patsy's, which was on the west side at Grand and Ogden Avenues, using its parking lot for mob meetings. Patsy's was a small place famous for its homemade meatballs that attracted people from all over town including Anthony Accardo, Paul Ricca, Sam Giancana, Gus Alex and Jackie Cerone.

In 1954, Pasquale, Sr. suffered a fatal aneurysm and died at the age of fifty-five.

His brother Anthony would later transfer to a trade school with Frank Cullotta. Michael graduated high school and shortly began to follow in his older brother Tony's footsteps.

Michael's brother, Pasquale, became an oral surgeon and dentist in the Chicago area, and Vincent lived a law-abiding life.

Tony, John and Victor became criminals like Michael. As a child he and his brothers grew up in a two-story wooden bungalow just a few blocks from Frank Rosenthal's childhood home.

Michael spoke in a dapper Chicago accent and pronounced his vowels flat.

He was married to Anne Spilotro and father to Michelle Spilotro Capozzoli, Paula Spilotro, and Michael Spilotro Jr. (born May 21, 1977).

He had once been arrested for aggravated assault with Rocco Lombardo, the younger brother of future mob boss Joseph Lombardo and Peter Schivarelli, a former University of Notre Dame football player, but the trio had been acquitted.

Spilotro's wife and daughter would later testify in 2007 for the prosecution regarding the Spilotro Brothers' involvement with James Marcello.

In 2007, Anne Spilotro testified at the Family Secrets trial about how she reached out to mob boss James Marcello for help and allegedly was swindled after selling her husband's Chicago restaurant to state Democratic Senator James DeLeo and attorney James Banks, the nephew of Chicago's 36th Ward Alderman William Banks. Upon hearing the allegations, DeLeo expressed amazement at her complaint to reporters. DeLeo said he and James Banks converted the restaurant into a pizza parlor that later failed.

Bit-part Hollywood career
Michael was friends with actor Robert Conrad and, through Conrad, also became close friends with Robert's fellow Hollywood actor Larry Manetti (one of the supporting stars of Magnum P.I.) and his wife Nancy DeCarl. In a 2008 interview, Conrad described Michael Spilotro as his "best friend".

Michael first met Robert Conrad in May 1954, when Robert was only 19 years old. At the time, Conrad had eloped with a lawyer's daughter and lied about his age to gain employment as a longshoreman on the Chicago waterfront. He was later fired in December of that year for handing out a petition to have his union steward fired. The two remained close and Michael later appeared as a stick-up man in Conrad's TV series The Duke in 1979. On the Internet Movie Database (IMDb) website, Michael is labeled as a dramatic actor. Through Conrad, he became close with actors Patrick Wayne, Dennis Hopper and Nick Adams. He later was featured in Will: The Autobiography of G. Gordon Liddy, released in 1982, and with Tom Selleck in the first season of the TV series Magnum, P.I., in the episode 12 entitled "Thicker Than Blood", as an armed federal marshal.

After temporarily moving to Las Vegas shortly before his death, in order to tend to his indictment in the months-long Hole in the Wall Gang trial, Michael allegedly helped run a local jewelry store called The Goldrush Ltd, with Anthony and his other brother John, who worked as a bookmaker. Michael soon became involved in bookmaking, drug dealing, prostitution, robbery, and extortion. Through his relationship with Larry Manetti he had connections in the Plaza Hotel & Casino, when it was under the ownership of the Barrick Gaming Corporation. Lifelong friend and fellow actor Larry Manetti told reporters from the Chicago Tribune during the Family Trial, "I didn't know Michael was a gangster. I knew him as a guy I grew up with in the neighborhood. Michael wanted to be on TV, that's all. Who wouldn't?... He wasn't trying to be a movie star or an actor, he was having fun." Manetti commented to reporters about Michael's acting ability stating, "He was OK as an actor, he wasn't so stiff." Robert Conrad attended funerals of the Spilotro family, and made no effort to hide his appearances from the press there. There was no attempt on the part of either Robert Conrad or Larry Manetti to attend the funerals of Anthony or Michael.. He didn't appear publicly with either brother, even when they were alive. Conrad attempted to keep his association sub rosa also. When he encountered a bus load of tourists when Anthony Spilotro's Monte Carlo automobile collided with it, he quickly left before attention could be drawn.

The Hole In The Wall Gang
Spilotro, in 1978, formed a burglary ring with his brother Anthony and Herbert Blitzstein, utilizing about eight associates as burglars. The crew became known as the Hole in the Wall Gang because of its penchant for gaining entry by drilling through the exterior walls and ceilings of the buildings they burglarized. The Hole in the Wall Gang operated out of The Gold Rush, Ltd.

Other gang members included his younger brother John Paul Spilotro, Polish-American brothers Peanuts Pancsko, Butch Pancsko and Pops Pancsko, Frank DeLegge, French-Canadian Michael LaJoy, Joseph D'Argento, Swedish-American Gerald Tomasczek, Peter Basile of Wilmette, Illinois, Carl Urbanotti of Chicago, Illinois, Ernest Lehnigg of Addison, Illinois, Samuel Cusumano, Joseph Cusumano, Ernesto "Ernie" Davino, 34, Las Vegas, "Crazy Larry" Neumann, Wayne Matecki, Salvatore "Sonny" Romano, Leonardo "Leo" Guardino, 47, Las Vegas, Frank Cullotta, 43, Las Vegas, and former Las Vegas Sheriff's Department Detective, Joseph Blasko, 45, Las Vegas, who acted as a lookout and who later worked as a bartender at the Crazy Horse Too, a gentleman's club, and died of a heart attack in 2002.

Following the botched burglary at Bertha's Household Products on July 4, 1981, Cullotta, Blasko, Guardino, Davino, Neumann, and Matecki were arrested and each charged with burglary, conspiracy to commit burglary, attempted grand larceny and possession of burglary tools. They were locked into the Las Vegas police department's holding cell in downtown Las Vegas. The only members of Spilotro's gang not arrested for the July 4 burglary were Blitzstein, Michael Spilotro, Romano and Cusumano. Meanwhile, Cullotta had turned state's witness, testifying against Anthony and to a lesser extent Michael Spilotro. But the testimony was insufficient, and Michael was acquitted and Tony Spilotro had a mistrial.

Death
Spilotro and his brother Anthony disappeared on June 14, 1986, after they drove away together from Michael's Oak Park home. Michael's wife, Anne, reported both brothers missing on June 16. Michael's car, a 1986 Lincoln, was recovered several days later in a motel parking lot near O'Hare International Airport. On June 22, their bodies were found, one on top of the other and stripped down to their undershorts, buried in a cornfield in the Willow Slough preserve near Enos, Indiana. The freshly turned earth had been noticed by a farmer who thought that the remains of a deer killed out of season had been buried there by a poacher, and notified authorities. An autopsy completed on June 24, identified their cause of death by blunt force trauma, and had been dead since June 14. They were identified by dental charts supplied by their dentist brother, Patrick Spilotro. The two were buried in a family plot at Queen of Heaven Cemetery in Hillside, Illinois on June 27.

In January 1986, in the wake of the imprisonment of Joseph Aiuppa and John Cerone for skimming Las Vegas casino profits, a meeting was held at the Czech Lodge in North Riverside, Illinois. Most of the "upper echelon" were there, including Outfit boss Tony "Joe Batters" Accardo. Accardo had decided to appoint Samuel Carlisi as the "Street Boss" in charge of Outfit operations to replace Aiuppa. Carlisi told the group that Accardo would stay on as consigliere and would have final say, as well as Gus Alex staying head of the connection guys. He then went on to the first problem: Spilotro, and how things had gone down since he took over Vegas. Mobster and mob enforcer Rocco Infelice said, "Hit him." Everyone else at the meeting agreed. Spilotro was replaced in Las Vegas by Donald "The Wizard of Odds" Angelini.

Although the original reports stated the Spilotros were beaten and buried in the Enos, Indiana, cornfield, mobster Nicholas Calabrese testified at the "Operation Family Secrets" in 2007 that the brothers were killed in a Bensenville, Illinois, basement where the Spilotros believed Michael would be inducted into The Outfit, then transported to the cornfield. According to court testimony, when Tony entered the basement and realized what was about to occur, he asked if he could "say a prayer".

No arrests were made until April 25, 2005, when 14 members of the Chicago Outfit (including reputed boss James Marcello) were indicted for 18 murders, including the Spilotros. The suspected murderers included capo Albert Tocco from Chicago Heights, Illinois, who was sentenced to 200 years in prison in 1990, after his wife testified against him. She testified that in 1986 she drove her husband from an Indiana cornfield where he told her he had just buried Spilotro. Another suspect in the murders was Frank "The German" Schweihs, a convicted extortionist and alleged Chicago assassin who was suspected of involvement in several murders including the Spilotros, Allen Dorfman (of the Teamster's Pension Fund), and a former girlfriend. Schweihs was arrested by the FBI on December 22, 2005. At the time, he was a fugitive living in a Berea, Kentucky apartment complex. Schweihs had slipped away before prosecutors were able to arrest him and 13 others, including Marcello.

On May 18, 2007, the star witness in the government's case against 14 Chicago mob figures, Nicholas Calabrese, pleaded guilty to taking part in a conspiracy that included 18 murders, including the hits on Anthony and Michael Spilotro. Under heavy security, Calabrese admitted that he took part in planning or carrying out 14 of the murders, including the Spilotro killings. He became the key witness against his brother, Frank Calabrese, Sr., and other major mob figures charged in the government's Family Secrets Trial. Calabrese agreed to testify after the FBI showed him DNA evidence linking him to the murder of fellow hit-man John Fecarotta, who was also allegedly involved in the Spilotro slayings.

In September 2007, Frank Calabrese, Sr. and four other men − Marcello, Joseph Lombardo, Paul "The Indian" Schiro, and former Chicago police officer Anthony "Twan" Doyle − were convicted of mob-related crimes. On September 27, 2007, Marcello was found guilty by a federal jury in the murders of both Spilotro brothers. On February 5, 2009, Marcello was sentenced to Life imprisonment for the Spilotro murders, and United States District Judge James Zagel, agreeing with the presentation made by federal prosecutor Markus Funk, also found Marcello responsible for the D'Andrea murder as well, even though the jury had deadlocked on that count. On March 26, 2009, Nicholas Calabrese was sentenced to 12 years and four months imprisonment.

In popular culture
The character Dominick "Dom" Santoro in the 1995 film Casino is based on Michael Spilotro, and played by Philip Suriano. Dominick is shown assisting his older brother Nicky and his crew in beating up a man outside a bar, spitting in a police officer's sandwich, and later shooting up a cop's home in revenge for the death of a crew member. In the infamous cornfield scene at the film's climax, Dominick is the first of the brothers to be brutally beaten by Frank Marino and the rest of their crew while Nicky is forced to watch. When Nicky pleads for Dominick's life, Marino spitefully lands two particularly vicious blows to Dominick's head, leaving Dominick only barely conscious as he is thrown into the hole to be buried alive with Nicky moments later.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Michael Spilotro


text:
Pete McCarthy

Peter Charles McCarthy Robinson (9 November 1951 – 6 October 2004) was an Anglo-Irish comedian, radio and television presenter and travel writer. He was noted for his best-selling travel books McCarthy's Bar (2000) and The Road to McCarthy (2002), in which he explored western Ireland and the Irish diaspora around the world.

Summary
Born in Warrington, Lancashire to an English father of Irish descent and an Irish mother, McCarthy spent much of his early life in Ireland and developed a love for the country. He decided to become a writer and studied English at Leicester University. After a brief stint as a teacher he moved to Brighton, where he became involved in local art community projects. He discovered a talent for comedy and co-founded a successful comedy troupe, in which he wrote and performed for ten years.

He became a solo stand-up comic and comedy writer, and after success with The Hangover Show in 1990 he presented television and radio shows. In 2000 he published McCarthy's Bar, an account of his travels around Western Ireland. He followed McCarthy's Bar in 2002 with The Road to McCarthy. A third book remained unfinished when he died of cancer in 2004.

Early life : 1951–1974
McCarthy was born on 9 November 1951 in Warrington, Lancashire. His Irish mother had moved to England during the Second World War to work as a nurse and met her future husband at a dance. They had four children, of whom Peter was the first. McCarthy was educated at West Park Grammar School in St Helens, a Roman Catholic institution run by the Christian Brothers. He later described this experience as "a mixture of hellfire and brimstone, corporal punishment and awakening sexuality". The Christian Brothers' authoritarian education methods, which included "a fair bit of random brutality", he described as "carrot and stick without the carrot".

As a child, he spent his school holidays in Drimoleague in West Cork, Ireland, and stayed with relatives on the farm called "Butlersgift" where his mother had grown up, a place that he later described as "straight from a story book". This time spent in Ireland inspired a fascination with the country that was evident later in his travel writing. In his teenage years he considered becoming a member of the Roman Catholic clergy, but was dissuaded by his local priest. After reading James Joyce's Portrait of the Artist at the age of 14, he decided instead to be a writer.

McCarthy attended Leicester University and earned a first-class degree in English literature. He studied at a teacher training college and taught English and Drama at a comprehensive school on the coast of Suffolk.

Comedy and television: 1975–1997
In 1975, McCarthy moved to Brighton, East Sussex, and worked in a community arts project in nearby Shoreham-by-Sea, which led to his first television appearance, on Tommy Tractor's Triffic Toyshop Show (1977), a show for primary school children. He moved into comedy, co-founded Cliff Hanger Theatre with friends Robin Driscoll, Steve McNicholas, Tony Haase and Rebecca Stevens, and discovered a talent for verbal repartee. He was described as "a brilliantly funny writer and performer".

The company toured the country performing in pubs, and their first show, The Featherstone Flyer (1978), was premiered in the Hope and Anchor in Islington, North London. The Featherstone Flyer was followed by Dig for Victory (1980–81), Captive Audience (1981–82), They Came From Somewhere Else! (1982–83), Gymslip Vicar (1984-85), which was nominated for a Laurence Olivier Award, and James Bond (1988). The success of the stage shows led to the creation of two television series, They Came From Somewhere Else (1984) for Channel 4 and Mornin' Sarge (1989) on BBC Two.

In 1987, McCarthy began performing solo stand-up comedy, adopting his mother's surname as his stage name after learning of another actor using the name Peter Robinson. For the 1987 Brighton Festival he created Boredom and Black Magic in Hove, a three-hour coach tour and pub crawl. McCarthy acted as guide, inventing surreal explanations for the sights of Hove. Audiences "had to jump across the border from Brighton to Hove, where they were handed a glass of sweet sherry. Pete then took them on a tour around Hove, making up the sights as he went along." The show won the best cabaret act in the 1987 Zap Club Awards.

McCarthy took his next show, Live in Your Living Room, from 1987–8 to the Edinburgh, Melbourne and Brighton festivals. He performed in people's homes in bedrooms, bathrooms and living rooms to audiences of 10-20. The subject of the show was the metaphysical effects of a hangover. The Brighton Argus reviewer wrote, "The hour-long tour-de-force begins with an apparently hungover Peter in bed, surrounded by empty bottles, and transfers to the living room, where he sports a revolting 1970s stretch burgundy outfit, threatens a striptease and then fortunately changes his mind....In between he delivers a quick-fire monologue which develops from the perils of drinking to tragicomic stuff touching on loneliness, death and unrequited love."

In 1990 McCarthy explored this theme further in The Hangover Show, directed by John Dowie. He was awarded the Critic's Award for Best Comedy and a Perrier Award at the Edinburgh Festival Fringe. The show was developed into a one-off television special for BBC Scotland which was broadcast on New Year's Day 1991. He regularly compered at The Comedy Store in Central London. As a stand-up comedian, McCarthy often drew on his Irish Catholic background as a source of material. The Guardian described him as "someone who took infinite pleasure in the comic strangeness of other human beings." He wrote and performed in a two-man comedy show with the Liverpudlian poet Roger McGough which toured in Britain and Australia. In the 1980s he began writing television scripts and gags for the comedians Mel Smith and Griff Rhys Jones.

As a result of The Hangover Show, McCarthy was given his own unconventional 'alternative' travel show, Travelog, by Channel 4. McCarthy recalled: "We travelled to Zanzibar and China, Fiji and Corsica, Costa Rica and Laos, stood on the edge of volcanoes, had lunch with heroes of the Crete resistance, and got caught up in a military coup in Vanuatu". He starred in a string of other television and radio shows throughout the 1990's, including BBC 2's Country Tracks (1998); Meridian Television's The Pier; and Channel 4's Desperately Seeking Something (1995–1998), an exploration of alternative religious movements around the world. For BBC Radio 4, he presented Breakaway, First Impressions, X Marks the Spot, American Beauty, and Cajun Country, as well as appearing as a regular guest on Loose Ends, Just a Minute and The News Quiz.

Travel writing: 1998–2004
In March 1998 Hodder and Stoughton published McCarthy's first travel book, McCarthy's Bar: A Journey Of Discovery In Ireland, in which he described his travels and adventures in the west of the country, from Cork to Donegal, and the people he encountered during a quest to find pubs and bars called McCarthy's. The Daily Telegraph described the book as an "affectionate, revealing and well-lubricated look at the changing face of a country".

McCarthy won "Newcomer of the Year" at the British Book Awards in 2002, and McCarthy's Bar was a great success, selling over a million copies. McCarthy admitted to a childlike pleasure in seeing his book take its place on the shelves among writers he had admired for years, and joked "If the literary life gets a little dull, there's always the thrill of going into W H Smith and moving McCarthy's Bar in front of Bill Bryson."

His follow-up travel book, The Road to McCarthy, an account of further Irish-themed travels in Gibraltar, Morocco, New York City, Montana, Tasmania, Montserrat and Alaska in search of a McCarthy clan chieftain, was published in 2002.

Peter McCarthy wrote his books with pen and paper. Asked if he was a technophobe, he said: "Yes big time. I've got a kettle and a fridge, but I don't own a computer, a word processor or even a typewriter."

He said in McCarthy's Bar that his grandfather's surname had been spelled 'MacCarthy'. "It's a translation from the Irish, the 'a' is optional." An uncle in County Cork told him that names of his ancestors in the 1700s had been recorded as "MacCartai".

Later life and death
McCarthy moved with his family from Brighton to a village in the South Downs in East Sussex, and enjoyed taking solitary walks across the Downs. He described the landscape as "a kind of neolithic M25". After the success of his previous books, he was planning to write a third travel work exploring the six counties of Northern Ireland.

McCarthy was diagnosed with cancer in February 2004 and died at the Royal Sussex Hospital in Brighton on 6 October 2004 at the age of 52. He was survived by his wife Irene and three daughters, Alice, Isabella and Coral.

Bus operator Brighton & Hove named one of its fleet – bus 913 – after him in September 2006.

Radio credits
Radio shows McCarthy presented:
 * Breakaway
 * First Impressions
 * X Marks the Spot
 * American Beauty
 * Cajun Country

Radio shows he regularly appeared in:
 * Loose Ends
 * Just a Minute
 * The News Quiz

Television credits
McCarthy presented: He appeared in:
 * Travelog
 * Country Tracks
 * The Pier
 * Desperately Seeking Something
 * They Came from Somewhere Else

Awards

 * Critics' Award for Best Comedy, Edinburgh Festival Fringe 1990 for Hangover Show
 * Newcomer of the Year, British Book Awards 2002

title: Pete McCarthy


text:
Julian Asquith, 2nd Earl of Oxford and Asquith

Julian Edward George Asquith, 2nd Earl of Oxford and Asquith, (22 April 1916 – 16 January 2011) was a British colonial administrator and hereditary peer.

Background and education
Asquith was the only son of Katharine (née Horner) and Raymond Asquith, a barrister. He was the grandson of H.H. Asquith, 1st Earl of Oxford and Asquith, British Prime Minister from 1908 until 1916. Lord Oxford's two older sisters both predeceased him; the younger of these was Lady Perdita Rose Mary Asquith, later Lady Hylton (1910–1996), who was married to William Jolliffe, 4th Baron Hylton and became the grandmother of the actress Anna Chancellor.

He inherited the earldom in 1928 on the death of his grandfather, since his father had been killed in the First World War. He was raised as a Roman Catholic after his mother's conversion to Catholicism in 1923. He and was educated at St Ronan's School and Ampleforth College, going on to study at Balliol College, Oxford, where he graduated with Bachelor of Arts and Master of Arts degrees. In 1936, he attended the opening of the new building of Campion Hall, a Catholic institution within the University, with the Duke of Alba, Spanish ambassador to London, and Alban Goodier S.J., the former Archbishop of Bombay.

In 1940, Asquith was commissioned in the Royal Engineers and served with 3 Field Squadron in Egypt. From 1942 to 1948 he was an Assistant District Commissioner in Palestine.

Career
After the war, Lord Oxford pursued a career in the Colonial Service. He was Deputy chairman Secretary of the British Administration Tripolitania from 1949 to 1950, Director of Interior Tripolitania in 1951 and Advisor to the Prime Minister of Libya in 1952. In 1955 he was Administrative Secretary of Zanzibar and from 1958 to 1962 was the Administrator of Saint Lucia. He was appointed Companion of the Order of St Michael and St George in 1961. Oxford was the Governor and Commander-in-Chief of the Seychelles from 1962 to 1967, and the Commissioner of the British Indian Ocean Territory from 1965 to 1967. In 1964, he was advanced as Knight Commander of the Order of St Michael and St George. He also held the posts of Constitutional Commander of the Cayman Islands in 1971, and Turks and Caicos Islands from 1973 to 1974.

Marriage and children
On 28 August 1947, Lord Oxford married Anne Mary Celestine Palairet, daughter of Mary de Vere Studd and Sir Michael Palairet (1882–1956) at the Brompton Oratory. Anne Oxford was also a Roman Catholic via her parents' conversions.

Lord and Lady Oxford had five children: three daughters (the second of which is married to a diplomat) and two sons, both diplomats:

 * Lady (Mary) Annunziata Asquith (born 28 July 1948), partner of Patrick Anson, 5th Earl of Lichfield
 * Lady Katharine Rose Celestine Asquith (born 1 October 1949), in 1970 married Adam Ridley, divorced 1976; married secondly 1985 Nathaniel Page, son of Sir John Page.
 * Raymond Benedict Bartholomew Asquith, 3rd Earl of Oxford and Asquith (born 24 August 1952)
 * Lady Clare Perpetua Frances Asquith (born 28 March 1955)
 * Sir Dominic Antony Gerard Asquith (born 7 February 1957), a former British Ambassador to Iraq, Egypt and Libya.

Lord Oxford inherited the estate of Mells Manor from his mother Katharine Asquith, the younger daughter of Frances Jane (née Graham) and Sir John Francis Fortescue Horner.

The Countess of Oxford and Asquith died in 1998. The Earl died, aged 94, on 16 January 2011. He was succeeded in his peerage titles, which he had held for over 80 years, by his elder son, Raymond (b. 1952), a former British diplomat and elected hereditary member of the House of Lords.


text: Category:Italian composers

title: Category:Italian composers


text:
Talk:Call centre

Centre?
Why is the MoS following the British spelling of Call centre? Center is more internationally recognized, even if call centers did originate in Britian. 2601:644:8D80:AB10:40D4:BFF:FEA8:CCC9 (talk) 22:02, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

 * Hi IP, Wikipedia doesn't have a preference over national varieties of English. Generally, articles with strong national ties should use the English of that nation (e.g. article about an American airline should use American English).
 * Most likely someone from the UK created this article as the first version uses the spelling "centre". In such a case where an article uses one variety consistently, this should be retained and not changed to one's preference. See more about that at WP:ENGVAR. – NJD-DE (talk) 22:11, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Got it. Thanks for the reply, and explanation. 2601:644:8D80:AB10:40D4:BFF:FEA8:CCC9 (talk) 16:38, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
 * shankar shah 49.126.210.100 (talk) 05:54, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

"Contact Center as a Service" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Contact_Center_as_a_Service&redirect=no Contact Center as a Service] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Utopes (talk / cont) 20:52, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Call centre


text:
Broad Hinton and Winterbourne Bassett

Broad Hinton and Winterbourne Bassett is a parish council area comprising the adjacent civil parishes of Broad Hinton and Winterbourne Bassett, in the English county of Wiltshire.

The two civil parishes elect a single grouped parish council. They fall within the area of the Wiltshire Council unitary authority, which is responsible for almost all significant local government functions.

In the census of 2011, the combined population of the parishes was 809.

title: Broad Hinton and Winterbourne Bassett


text:
Talk:Brooks Locomotive Works

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title: Talk:Brooks Locomotive Works


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Talk:Jezreel Valley

Confusing
This entry is still pretty confusing, but I am by no means an expert in Christianity so I'm not sure I'm qualified to do a rewrite. If anyone is, please step up to the plate. --adr 15:37, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Wasn't this valley a malaria ridden swamp, drained and make available to farming by the Zionist pioneers? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.80.32.20 (talk • contribs) 23:43, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
 * No, that would be the Hulah Valley. Daniel tzvi 18:11, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes, I think it was, or at least we have a POV problem here. The Britannica Concise Encyclopedia (redirected to Esdraelon) says, "...it was swampy and sparsely inhabited for many centuries, but since 1920 the land has been reclaimed." The Columbia Encyclopedia says,"Once a swampy malarial lowland, Esdraelon has been drained and turned into one of Israel's most fertile and densely populated regions." (That also corresponds to what old people who live in the region have told me.) If you Google the phrase "huge green lake of waving wheat" you will be directed exclusively to pro-Palestinian websites, plus websites that reference Wikipedia. Narft (talk) 20:37, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Jenin, or: where is the Jezreel Valley?
(continuing discussion) The reason that I think it's worthwhile to include a mention of Jenin in this article, is because it's a good link to a modern location, and the Jenin page also has a map which clearly states where it is. For myself, when I first read the Jezreel Valley article, my reaction was, "Nice article, but where the heck is this place?" The term "West Bank" pulls up a general location in my mind, but it was still very vague. If we can find an actual map to put on this article though with an "X marks the spot," then I won't care as much about whether or not we specifically mention Jenin. So, could we perhaps leave that info there, until we do find a map? :) --Elonka 02:59, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

 * i thought it over and decided it would not be so harmful to include jenin until someone cares enough to add a map. sorry for forcing you to revert and discuss, i've been around combative editors a bit too much :)  Jaakobou Chalk Talk  03:29, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for being open-minded! It's very refreshing to see a conflict that can get resolved with civil discussion.  :)  BTW, how good is your Arabic?  I'm needing someone who can read a medieval source document.  Also, any chance that Armenian might be one of your languages?  I'm needing a translator there too. --Elonka 05:41, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

 * my arabic is ridiculous.. i usually go to the google translator. my knowledge of armanian is an absolute zero. i hope the link helps some.  Jaakobou Chalk Talk  14:52, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Elevation
What is height above sea level? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.41.222.1 (talk) 03:38, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

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Outline: where does the Jezreel Valley start/end?
The description of the boundaries in the opening are pretty bad. Afula and Tiberias - espeically the latter - have no reason being mentioned as border areas of the valley. Afula is practically in the middle of the valley. Generally, the valley stretches southeast-to-northwest, and this description does not even hint at that, really. Mount Gilboa can be said to be the starting/ending point of the valley in the southeast, though honestly, I'd say that valley stretches northwest from the Jordan Valley. The northwest limits are also a bit ambiguous dependent upon whether one considers the small passage the Kishon River flows through a continuation of the valley. But, it is clearly geographically delineated at this point in either case. Here are two good maps:

http://www.bibleplaces.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/1.4-Jezreel-Valley.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b4/d8/54/b4d85497e729063bb23df80f7bf4ac77.jpg

Someone more knowledgeable of the land can created a better description of the geography of this valley from this topographical maps. Thanks. --Criticalthinker (talk) 22:25, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:Jezreel Valley


text:
Exodus (video game)

Exodus is a video game released for the Nintendo Entertainment System by Color Dreams through its Wisdom Tree label in 1991. Like all Wisdom Tree games, Exodus was not officially licensed by Nintendo. It was ported to the Game Boy. Exodus is based on Crystal Mines, an earlier game from the company when it was known as Color Dreams.

According to the instruction manual, the player controls the biblical figure Moses as he leads the Israelites to the Promised Land, meaning he goes through a labyrinth. Moses has the ability to shoot glowing "W"s, which signify the word of God, to defeat enemies and remove obstacles. To finish each level, Moses must acquire five question marks as well as a certain amount of manna while avoiding enemies such as magicians and soldiers. After a level is completed, the player must answer five multiple choice Bible-related questions before advancing to the next level. After answering enough questions correctly, the player is rewarded with an extra life. The final 50 levels are a mirror of the first 50 with tougher enemies. At the intro screen, players can skip ahead in intervals of five levels until level 81.

The background music of the Exodus levels is to the theme of "Father Abraham" (a popular Christian children's song named after an iconic figure of the Old Testament).

Legacy
Wisdom Tree later released a sequel to Exodus, titled Joshua, with slightly improved graphics and gameplay.

Joshua is based on the Biblical figure Joshua, who was Moses's apprentice in the Old Testament. He later became the leader of the Israelite tribes after the death of Moses. Joshua's most popular biblical story is about the taking back of the "promised land", where Joshua sent his men to march around the walls of the city of Jericho for seven days. After God saw his people's loyalty, he destroyed the city walls.

Similar to Moses shooting W's (to symbolize the word of God) in Exodus, Joshua shoots music notes which symbolize the music for the priest's trumpets.

Unlike its predecessor, Joshua has no level background music.

title: Exodus (video game)


text:
User talk:Ryano

 ''Welcome to my talk page. Please sign and date your entries by inserting  --~  at the end. If you leave a comment, I will usually reply to it on this page rather than on your own talk page. [ Start a new talk topic]''

Welcome
Hi! Welcome to Wikipedia. I'm not actually part of the Wikipedia unofficial welcoming committee, I just noticed you made some contributions to Irish topics. There's actually a group of Irish Wikipedians working on improving the Irish topic articles. If you feel like it you should visit Wikipedia_talk:Irish wikipedians' notice board and introduce yourself. No doubt some member of the welcoming committee will drop you a note soon with all sorts of useful links. In the mean time if you need help with anything, or just want to say hello, you can contact me on my talk page. —Rory ☺ 15:40, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

Belated welcome
From the date above, I see you've been here for a while! Still, just to say welcome to another editor working on Irish-related articles. Since you didn't get a welcome with a list of links, I'll provide it - though I'm sure you've fairly much settled in now!

If you made any edits before you got an account, you might be interested in assigning those to your username.

You might find these links helpful in creating new pages or contributing: How to edit a page, How to write a great article, Naming conventions, Manual of Style. You should read our policies at some point too. If you ever think a page or image should be deleted, please list it at the votes for deletion page. There is also a votes for undeletion page if you want to retrieve something that you think should not have been deleted.

If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump, or ask me on my talk page. I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian!

zoney ♣ talk 16:38, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Terenure
That would be right from the IRELAND 2002 Census. ℬ astique▼ talk 15:05, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * These are the figures I added together (from 2002 census):
 * from Dublin Suburbs:
 * Terenure-Cherryfield 2,228
 * Terenure-Greentrees 2,980
 * Terenure-St. James 3,108
 * from Dublin City South:
 * Terenure A 3,494
 * Terenure B 3,445
 * Terenure C 1,773
 * Terenure D 872
 * ℬ astique▼ talk 17:24, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Irish railways map
Yes, I created the current map myself. I'm far from happy with it, and have a better map to work with now (see the section shown in Western Rail Corridor). Unfortunately the new map isn't complete - essentially I've only added the WRC to it at present. I hope to complete it in the form of a map of all railways that existed in Ireland (colour-coded by the railway co. that built/took them over, e.g. GSWR, MGWR, D&SE, GNR, etc.) - after that I can redo the current lines map.

Your best bet is to perhaps redraw the grey lines on the existing map in some different colour/shade. As is, I've just noticed that the Antrim line is the wrong colour at the moment - I had fixed it but re-introduced the error when I fixed Farranfore's location. See the image history.

zoney ♣ talk 18:46, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Michael Collins
There was a claim that the driver of the armoured car was in the pay of the Brit secret service and he shot Collins. However I approve of your deletion, unless there is a reference which can be used. --ClemMcGann 14:00, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Republican Sinn Féin vandal
Thanks for the support. To be honest, I'm quite happy for the CIRA supporters to waste their time vandalizing online encyclopedias, rather than blowing people up! Demiurge 09:58, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Wikimedia UK/Wikimania 2006
Hi, this is a circular to Wikipedians in Ireland to draw your attention to Wikimedia UK, where the establishment of a local Wikimedia chapter for the United Kingdom (and possibly for the Republic of Ireland) is being discussed. See the talk page, as well as the mailing list; a meetup will take place to discuss matters in London in September, for anyone who can get there. On another topic, plans are being drawn up for a UK bid for Wikimania 2006, which would be conveniently close to Ireland. On the other hand, Dublin's bid was one of the final three last year - might we bid again? --Kwekubo 19:32, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

A user is trying to have the Template:Irish Republic infobox deleted. Your comments would be welcome. FearÉIREANN \(caint) 22:22, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Authority of British judicial system
Ryano, when the British courts found Roger Casement guilty of high treason, they officially and formally declared him to be a traitor. That is not the mere POV of a Wikipedia contributor.64.12.117.11 13:38, 10 November 2005 (UTC)PerryMason
 * I've responded to this on Talk:Irish people. In summary, I don't think it's necessarily POV to term him a "British traitor", but I do think it's POV to use it in the context of a short label on such an article. --Ryano 14:06, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

The Catholic Church Says So
Ryano. Please keep this article NPOV. The Doctorite of Ian Paisley is disputed. That is clear. However, both sides should be put. The Catholic Church agrees with what I have said. This is stated aim of Wikipedia. No matter how many people from Dublin like yourself disagree, NPOV must be kept at all times. This whole article is highly POV, due to meddling on yours and others parts. However, I for one would like to make it NPOV. Wallie 16:28, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Ryano. I cannot understand why you and others are trying to blank out everything I say. I am trying my best to accommodate you. As mentioned, I am only trying to get some NPOV into this article. Wallie 18:27, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Hi Wallie, I'm not trying to blank out everything you say. I too want to see the article conform to NPOV, and will support any reasonable effort to do so.  At present I'm only really interested in the issue of Paisley's titles, as I think it essential that the article qualify Paisley's use of the title "Doctor".  It is not usual for somebody with an honorary doctorate to be so widely known as "Doctor", and it would be misleading if the article didn't address this.  I hope you will accept my good faith on these, even though I do live in Dublin :)  To address the specific edits of yours I reverted:

 * 1) The formulation "At the time of the award of this degree some argued that Bob Jones University was a segregationist, unaccredited Christian college which banned African-American students from its campus." is not appropriate for the context, as it creates a dispute which probably never happened, in order to imply some doubt over the claims about BJU. Either the claims about BJU are true, in which case they should stand, or they are false, in which case they should be removed altogether.  I'm not an expert on BJU, but as far as I'm aware it is not disputed that these were its policies at the time.  The WikiPedia policy WP:WEASEL is relevant to this point.

 * On this point, I will concede that I am doubtful of the relevance of the "segregationist" part of the sentence. This is not directly relevant to the nature of Paisley's degree, although it is factual.  If you had removed that part of the sentence in your edit I wouldn't have reverted it, although I suspect others may have.

 * 2) The fact that the Catholic Church have used "Dr Ian Paisley" in one or more documents does not have any bearing on the status of his degree. The Catholic Church, or anyone else for that matter, cannot change the fact that it is an honorary degree awarded by an unaccredited college and not an MD or Ph.D.  It is acknowledged elsewhere in the article that the title is widely used, this is the very reason why the section qualifying the nature of his degree is needed.

 * If you have other NPOV concerns about the article please let me know and I will take a look at them. --Ryano 22:02, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Thank you for your reply. It is the heavy implications placed in this text that I don't like. It implies that Ian Paisley is incompetent and a racist, and his degree is worth zilch. I do not think that you personally are trying to delete everything I say. But one person in particular is, and will likely continue to do so.. I just get the feeling that I am outnumbered. I am trying to bring some NPOV into the article. I think that the majority have made up their mind already and taken a clear position. Paisley's main protagonist, Gerry Adams has a much more favorable article. Shouldn't the articles have a similar tone? Wallie 13:48, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

 * They probably should. I haven't looked at the Adams article in any detail, but I will take a look when I get a chance.  --Ryano 14:33, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Irish numismatic articles in the British Commonwealth numismatic project.
Ryano,you may not be aware that I have written some articles about Coins of Ireland & Banknotes of Ireland. Could you please take a look & see if my use of the Erse language is correct, including the placement of the fada accent mark? If you know the Erse names for the decimal coins (including the Euro coins), you are more than welcome to add these in. - (Aidan Work 01:18, 17 November 2005 (UTC))
 * Hi Aidan, I'll take a look at those when time allows. The first thing I notice is the use of "Erse" rather than "Irish" - Erse is really an archaism, and is sometimes used to refer to versions of Gaelic before Modern Irish.  As the phrases in question are all in Modern Irish I don't think "Erse" is appropriate. --Ryano 12:19, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Ryano, I am sorry if my use of the term 'Erse' in reference to the Irish language is considered a bit insensitive. I wanted to emphasise the difference between it & the Scots-Gaelic language. - (Aidan Work 00:32, 18 November 2005 (UTC))

 * I don't know if it's insensitive, but it is certainly archaistic. Also, it may not be terribly useful for distinguishing between Irish and Scots Gaelic, as apparently it used to refer to both these languages.  In any case, "Irish", with a link to Irish Language is the common usage here on Wikipedia. --Ryano 13:43, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Heros
I didn't delete Emmeline Pankhurst, Belo, Gusmao etc. I reverted back to an earlier version, as all sorts of earlier names were deleted. It was definitely not my intention to remove them. The trouble is that some people delete a number of names and then add more. It is too complex to see what is going on. It is easier for them to put their names back. One thing I have found though, is that the strongest player of this game usually wins, right or wrong. I am not that strong so usually lose. I believe this page is not for heroes, but for victors, primarily British and American, as afterall they are the victors. Wallie 12:44, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree that it's a dodgy list, it appears to be an invitation to edit wars. I'm considering putting it up for deletion. --Ryano 12:56, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Irish-Scots (Again)
I don't know if I saw your name as one of those taking part in this debate in the past, but it's come up again - there's a call to delete the Category:Irish-Scots, and the page Irish-Scots.

I'm against deleting these - the arguments for deleting (so far) are that
 * it's not a clearly defined community - though I would argue, how else do we categorise the (tens of thousands of) Irish people who settled in Scotland, and their descendants? "Irish-Catholics" will not do (can't imagine James Connolly describing himself as an Irish-Catholic)
 * how far do you go back? - which to me is crap, as (eg) Ronald Reagan gets to be an Irish-American and a Scottish-American, though he'd have to go back centuries...
 * it's the same population as Ulster Scots - which it's patently not.

I created the original stub for "Irish-Scots", and my first draft was basically crap, but I've improved it since.

Anyway, please add your tuppence worth...and please vote "NO"!

Camillus talk 23:12, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Hi Camillus, thanks for the note, but I don't think I contributed to this discussion previously. I'm ambivalent about categories for ethnic or cultural groups, e.g. List of Irish-Americans, but I think the Irish-Scots article is probably worth keeping. --Ryano 10:37, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Village
Really! I'm off to but a copy, can't see it online. Thanks. CGorman 13:36, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Just saw it! Thanks for letting me know. CGorman 13:59, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Irish Catholic Rebels
I invite you to have a look at this article and then vote for a Speedy Delete on the article's section of the "Articles for Deletion". Camillus  talk | contribs 00:24, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I had already done so! --Ryano 10:35, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Irish people
Ryano - I'm fixing links to a disambig page. It is not inaccurate linking, as the disambig page for BC points users to the Anno Domini article, which has info on BC and what it means. Hope you understand, and thanks in advance. Search 4 Lancer 23:03, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Sorry, my mistake, I wasn't aware this was the preferred disambiguation of BC. --Ryano 00:36, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

There is a WP:TFD vote to delete Template:Irish Republicanism. In my view the template is fatally flawed in a host of areas, littered with inaccuracies and would be a guaranteed source of endless POV battles between SFs, RSFs, 32 County nutcases, etc etc. We only need to look at the POV nightmares at the various IRA pages to see the nightmares that could be caused by a template that tries to describe who is in and who is outside Irish republicanism, who is a key figure and who isn't. Redking made an interesting suggestion in the debate where he suggested that in effect the template is part if a campaign of normalisation of the Provos to make them legitimate. FearÉIREANN \(caint) 19:09, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Rathmines
It's just that it lacks clarity. Who owns it now? Who owned it after the Restoration? I presume "established church" refers to the Church of Ireland, but why was it taken off them, if it was?

Lapsed Pacifist 19:21, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Daniel O'Connell
I've had go at cleaning up the Daniel O'Connell article. Do you think its ready for the clean up tag to be removed? Jdorney 00:56, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Nice work! Yes, I will remove the cleanup tag, your edits are very much along the lines of what I thought needed to be done. --Ryano 09:35, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

politics.ie
I know you contribute to http://www.politics.ie/wiki, and I wanted to ask you a couple of questions. I recently lifted a couple of articles from there to here, assuming the same fair use guidelines apply. Stumason has since pointed out to me that they were lifted in turn (almost word for word) from http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/ and http://sinnfein.ie. Do you think whoever copied them into politics.ie obtained permission, or was it something that was overlooked?

Lapsed Pacifist 17:18, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I haven't contributed to the politics.ie wiki for a while, but from what I can remember the user "Padraig" added a lot of profiles of Sinn Féin representatives which may have been cut-and-paste from the Sinn Féin web site.  I believe Padraig is Padraig3uk on Wikipedia, so you could ask him if he obtained permission.  I don't think copyright issues have received much attention on the politics.ie wiki, so it's quite possible that it was just overlooked. --Ryano 18:31, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

PIRA
You wrote: Please don't mis-use "vandalism"

On this edit [1] on Provisional Irish Republican Army, you used the edit summary "Revert vandalism". The edit you reverted appears to have been made in good faith, and it is unfair to accuse the user of vandalism. Please don't misuse "vandalism" in edit summaries. Thanks. --Ryano 10:40, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

My reply: The edit I called vandalism restored two changes I had repeatedly made, and asked to discuss on the talk page. These were the use of 'descending' rather my preferred 'demonstrating' to describe the protest in Dublin after the Warrinton bomb, and the characterisation of the two innocent victims of the Canary Wharf bombing as 'Pakistanis'. The reverts, by user 68.35.182.234, were indeed vandalism and I would have no hesitation in using the term again if something similar occurred. HTH Guinnog 19:26, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, you can call that vandalism if you wish, not knowing much about the recent edit history I can't comment. However in reverting back to a version before your anonymous adversary's last edit, you also reverted several edits made in good faith by other users, which is why I don't think the edit summary was appropriate. --Ryano 22:13, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I do take your point. Next time I would try to merge the good edits into my edit rather than just reverting. Thanks Guinnog 22:24, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Request for Arbitration opened on Rms125a
Since you contributed to the RfC, you might be interested to hear I've opened a RfAr on Rms, which can be found at Requests for arbitration. Feel free to contribute. Thanks! Demiurge 16:02, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

RE: Imperial Crown of Russia
My addition to this article was based on a paragraph found on another wikipedia page (possibly Crown Jewels of Ireland or Michael collins?). A quick google search did turn up a number of mentions, hidden amongst wikipedia and derivitive links, but no solid confirmation. GreatGodOm 14:37, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Anglicanism and the Anglican Communion
Hello! I noticed that you have been a contributor to articles on Anglicanism and the Anglican Communion. You may be interested in checking out a new WikiProject - WikiProject Anglicanism. Please consider signing up and participating in this collaborative effort to improve and expand Anglican-related articles! Cheers! Fishhead64 23:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

NEW BLOG ON THE BLOCK
see IRISH MY ERSE

provoked by Kevin Myers, D'Olier Street's Worstwhile Direst.

IRISH MY ERSE
See new blog IRISH MY ERSE

Ruairi Quinn
Hi Ryano. That's sound then. El Gringo 12:42, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

William Martin Murphy
Delete it. I cant find anything. All I know that he was staunchly opposed to Home Rule and Irish Republicanism. Thanks for looking at the article.

Northern Ireland mediation
A request for mediation has been filed with the Mediation Committee. It doesn't list you as a party, but you may wish to add yourself. Please review the request at Requests for mediation/Northern Ireland and, if you wish, add you name and indicate that you agree to mediate. If you are unfamiliar with mediation, please refer to Mediation. There are only seven days for everyone to agree, so please check as soon as possible. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 18:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
Hi, You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:14, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Ryano