text:
User talk:Carlb

See also: my discussion page en français

ClockworkTroll 02:15, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Nice pic
"scarberia" - awesome. :) The two pix look pretty good. Krupo 06:44, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)

Welcome, and invitation...
Hi Carlb...I see you're pretty new around here, so welcome, and thanks for contributing some lovely photos! You may also be interested in checking out Canadian wikipedians' notice board, where a group of us are trying to more effectively coordinate Canada-related articles. Bearcat 19:24, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC) fr:user_talk:carlb

I had to delete the material you erroneously inserted in the Watertown, New York article. You made a common error in thinking that the page related to the City of Watertown. In addition much of your inserted material did not belong in ANY Watertown article because it related to other entities in Jefferson County, New York. Please be more careful in the future. Stepp-Wulf 04:08, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Tough call - Fort Drum isn't within Watertown, New York city limits but it's the largest employer in the area, so a description of the region would be incomplete without at least a link to it. --carlb 16:45, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)--66.102.74.221 16:38, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * In any case, Watertown, New York now seems to merely redirect to Watertown (city), New York, with that article's intro containing any disambiguation as to Watertown (town), New York. --carlb 23:37, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

sockpuppet pic
Thanks for the sockpuppet pic! Every time I run into a SOLLOG sockpuppet who has the image on their talk page I giggle, definately makes RC patrol more enjoyable. --fvw *  00:41, 2004 Dec 28 (UTC)

Image:Carlb-penny1967centennial-01.jpg
It's just too blurry to be of any value. Do you have a better pic? --Robojames 17:42, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I have the coin itself here, but if the pic has already been removed from any articles (it was taken for Canadian Centennial) not much point in changing it. --carlb 00:14, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Bringing Wikipedia to Toronto
I've been working on a bid to bring Wikimania 2006 to Toronto. I have contacted KMDI, an institute at the University of Toronto. They are very interested in partnering with us, and can get us a full range of U of T facilities for free. With this offer I think there is a very good chance of bringing Wikimania 2006 to Toronto. The only thing we currently lack are people willing to help out. I'm willing to do much of the work, but for the time being I am in Ottawa and having some people on the ground in Toronto will be necessary. We also need a number of people willing to assist at the actual event, likely the first weekend of August 2006. If you are interested in helping out sign up at Wikimania 2006/Toronto. Preliminary bids from various cities need to be made by Sept. 30, 2005, at which point a committee will choose which city gets to host the event. The number of people willing to help will certainly be an important consideration. - User:zanimum

CKWS
The source for the digital channel info was Industry Canada's broadcasting database. The station isn't broadcasting a digital signal yet to the best of my knowledge, though. Kirjtc2 03:09, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

In case you're interested...
You were listed on the Wikipedians/Ontario page as living in or being associated with Kingston, Ontario. As part of the User categorisation project, these lists are being replaced with user categories. If you would like to add yourself to the category that is replacing the page, please visit Category:Wikipedians in Kingston for instructions.--Rmky87 01:52, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Wiki for Engineering
Engineering Wiki is a wiki entirely dedicated to collecting information about Engineering. The Engineering Wiki is in early development stages at the moment. We invite you to help devlope this wiki.

Wikimedia Canada
Hi there! I'd like to invite you to explore Wikimedia Canada, and create a list of people interested in forming a local chapter for our nation. A local chapter will help promote and improve the organization, within our great nation. We'd also like to encourage everyone to suggest projects for our national chapter to participate in. Hope to see you there!--DarkEvil 17:11, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Did this ever get off the ground? I remember some discussion on this, briefly, then dead silence... --carlb 12:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Why so few Wikipedians are engineers?
I am trying to understand why there are so few Wikipedians who are graduate engineers. Once I get a grasp on that, perhaps I may be able to formulate some ideas on how to attract more experienced engineers to become Wikipedians. It would be very helpful if you would respond to these a few questions:

 * Are you a university graduate engineer?
 * Please indicate in which of these engineering disciplines you obtained your degree:
 * Aeronautical or aerospace engineering
 * Bioengineer or biological engineering
 * Chemical engineering
 * Civil engineering
 * Electrical engineering
 * Environmental engineering
 * Mechanical engineering
 * Petroleum engineering
 * Other
 * In what year did you obtain your degree?
 * What attracted you to participate in Wikipedia?

If you would rather not answer these questions on your Talk page, then you may respond on my User talk:mbeychok page. Or you may respond to me via Wikipedia's email which I have enabled on my User:mbeychok page.

If you would rather not respond at all, that's fine also. Regards, - mbeychok 04:28, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Image Tagging Image:Carlb-hwy401-to-404-407.jpg
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Uncyclopedia image
Hey I found this whilst browsing on Uncyclopedia and thought that would be ideal for the wikipedia article on the bulletin, can you remember the source for it? (xposted to your uncyclopedia page).--Nilfanion (talk) 21:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

 * It had appeared in one of the news reports made during the days or weeks after Katrina. That report had interviewed one of the people at either the National Weather Service or National Hurricane Center (sic) after the fact, with the forecasting agency stating that this warning was 'a good product'. Unfortunately I can't find the original news site in any of the external links on uncyclopedia:Catrina or uncyclopedia:Hurricane Katrina now. If the news media were merely reprinting the federally-issued warning, I presume this can be used as copyright status "a work of the US federal government" - whichever news site posted the .jpg is not the original author in any case. --carlb 00:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

License tagging for Image:Veterans Commemorative Park 416-Kemptville.jpg
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License tagging for Image:Featherston.jpg
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Image:Veterans Commemorative Park 416-Kemptville.jpg and Image:Featherston.jpg
Status on these two images is that I shot both of them myself on August 22, 2006. If anyone wants a copy of them for any purpose outside Wikipedia, please contact me directly. --carlb 18:43, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Sockpuppet image
Just thought you'd want to know; your sockpuppet image is currently on the front page of Slate online magazine at www.slate.com.--Pharos 22:38, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello. I created a baby stub for the article benzethonium chloride.
Free free to jump into the contributions with this benzethonium chloride stub. Good Luck. BenzethoniumChloride 06:44, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Highway 401 plaque
Would you be able to tell me where this plaque is located? The text on the plaque says somewhere between Hwy. 2 and Ivy Lea. I'm most interested. Thanks! - Yoho2001 06:44, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

 * There is a pair of rest stops (providing one set each of Wendy's, Tim Hortons, Standard Oil for traffic in each direction) near Mallorytown. These are part of the 401 highway, located near km 680 - just east of Mallorytown Road (km 675). The plaque is permanently affixed to one of these buildings; IIRC the eastbound Timmy's.

 * The section of road in question (between Interstate 81 and Brockville, Ontario, km 661-687 on the 401) was constructed last because an original - later abandoned - plan intended that the current 1000 Islands Parkway routing be used for the 401 in this section. The Parkway was built on a 401-sized right of way, but the extra two lanes worth of space ended up as a lengthy pedestrian and bicycle trail once the 401 was ultimately routed slightly further inland. --carlb 03:50, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Redirect
Your redirect from failure to George W Bush was funny. So I deleted it. Do not vandalize the Wiki! -- D ef en d er 9 11  10:37, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Um, what exactly makes this "my" redirect? Article history indicates an anon-IP which traces to
 * inetnum:        129.215.0.0 - 129.215.255.255
 * netname:        EU-NET-B215
 * descr:          Edinburgh University local area network
 * country:        GB

 * 1) (cur) (last)  10:35, 18 May 2007 Defender 911 (Talk | contribs) (3,518 bytes)
 * 2) (cur) (last) 05:39, 18 May 2007 129.215.45.78 (Talk) (3,548 bytes) (←Redirected page to George W. Bush)
 * 3) (cur) (last) 05:38, 18 May 2007 129.215.45.78 (Talk) (3,547 bytes) (←Redirected page to George W. Bush)
 * 4) (cur) (last) 02:22, 18 May 2007 Bobo192 (Talk | contribs) m (3,518 bytes) (Reverted edits by 66.60.175.55 (talk) to last version by 24.9.56.47)
 * 5) (cur) (last) 02:21, 18 May 2007 66.60.175.55 (Talk) (23 bytes) (←Redirected page to Wikipedia)
 * 6) (cur) (last) 21:05, 17 May 2007 24.9.56.47 (Talk) (3,518 bytes) (→Criteria for failure)

It's not my place to supervise university students in Edinburgh on the net; I'm halfway between Montréal and Toronto. --carlb 18:43, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Babel
Aren't you User pt-2 or more? Matheus Wahl 16:15, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Sadly, no. I've had to depend very heavily on Babelfish to follow any of what's going on in Desciclopédia. I speak Canadian, but that's the extent of my linguistic "abilities". --carlb 05:03, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Re: Status of H0A postal codes?
No, I don't know when the H0A FSA was retired. But I do know it's not in use now, because I get that information directly from the website of Canada Post. --  Denelson83  23:56, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Image:Pentastar.jpg listed for deletion
An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:Pentastar.jpg, has been listed at Images and media for deletion. Please see the to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you.  JGHowes talk  -  01:42, 18 October 2007 (UTC)   JGHowes  talk  -  01:42, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Replied here. --carlb (talk) 04:28, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Lotsofmoney11082004.jpg
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 * I was not the one who tagged this as a "fair-use image". This is a photo I'd taken myself, therefore pd-user, but someone else changed the tags (for whatever reason) because the image depicted coins as currency.

 * At this point, I shall not be uploading any further images to Wikipedia. --carlb (talk) 04:27, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Unciklopédia
Hi! Hungarian Unciklopédia don't working. Please help! Thanks: OsvátA (talk) 09:27, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It's working. Thanks. OsvátA (talk) 10:32, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

It's a full chaos. 7 days are to be missing. Why? OsvátA Palackposta 18:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Federation of Astronomical and Geophysical Data Analysis Services
This is an automated message from CorenSearchBot. I have performed a web search with the contents of Federation of Astronomical and Geophysical Data Analysis Services, and it appears to include a substantial copy of http://www.icsu-fags.org. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions will be deleted. You may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences.

This message was placed automatically, and it is possible that the bot is confused and found similarity where none actually exists. If that is the case, you can remove the tag from the article and it would be appreciated if you could drop a note on the maintainer's talk page. CorenSearchBot (talk) 05:56, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

 * The page quotes two sentences of text from the site, and attributes the source. As such, instead of bashing FAGS, perhaps it would be best to respect their diversity. --carlb (talk) 06:03, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks...
Thanks for the tip that you had posted on my user tlk page... Time to transfer them to mu Uncyclopedia userpage, just in case... -iaNLOPEZ1115 · TaLKBaCK · Vandalize it 08:20, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Rachel Marsden (4th nomination)
Then if you'd like we can discuss it here, or the articles talk page. An AfD can be closed after 6 or more express a keep or speedy keep rationale. This might be a good one to take to deletion review if you'd like. Although I wouldn't suggest it unless you're a hundred percent positive that the article should be deleted instead of kept. SynergeticMaggot (talk) 06:48, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

top ten wikipedias
Hi there. Since you comented on the discussion before, I would like to hear your opinion on this suggestion. Cheers, --Waldir talk 23:29, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Uncyclopedia
I apologize for my behavior here. I have been under a bit of WikiStress™ right now, and I clearly wasn't thinking straight. Seriously, the only problem I see with the article Uncyclopedia right now is that it needs a bit of copy editing. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells•Otter chirps) 00:19, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

New channel 9 in Gainesville
In the article for WGFL, you have removed the statement that a new local station on channel 9 will be digital, accusing me of being crystal. If you bothered to check the source link following the first sentence of that paragraph, you would find a link to the new station's FCC records, which mentions that the new channel 9 will be a digital signal, and it was also assigned channel 29 for analog. If you followed the links and check the facts first, it would've gave you the answers. -- azumanga (talk) 23:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

 * What are your sources for the speculation that the analogue channel 29 CP will never be built? Has anyone from the station (or its owners) confirmed this, or is this just a guess based on the current state of US DTV transition? --carlb (talk) 23:34, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

 * Changed wording in main article to removed THAT aspect's crystal ball. -- azumanga (talk) 01:33, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

PLEASE...

 * ...DO NOT REMOVE valid templates from your talk page.

 * ...DO NOT REMOVE or CHANGE currently-used templates from television station articles.

 * ...DO NOT ADD TRIVIAL INFORMATION to television station articles.

 * ...ENGAGE IN DISCUSSION with other editors, especially before making significant changes to any article.

 * ...RESPECT CONSENSUS.

If you can not, or do not wish to, adhere to any or all of these requests, I'd kindly ask that you refrain from editing any television-related articles. This has gone on long enough. Rollosmokes (talk) 06:48, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Infobox DTV
Template:Infobox DTV has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — Rollosmokes (talk) 07:00, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:Wcnylogo.gif)
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NowCommons: File:Carlb-gan-casino-401.jpg
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No content in Category:Channel 59 digital TV stations in the United States
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ArbCom elections are now open!
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Nomination for deletion of Template:Digital TV channel categories
Template:Digital TV channel categories has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Frietjes (talk) 17:30, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Hello
If you are the Carlb of Uncyclomedia, this message is for you. PLEASE, i want to move Wikilouco to Uncyclomedia, tem wiki has 22 articles and +23 imagens, the Miraheze system is poor. SuperNeuer (talk) 03:14, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Delete
I would like you to delete these, because OsvátA is no longer editing the Uncyclopedia: Apród (talk) 13:08, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
 * http://unciklopedia.org/wiki/Párizs
 * http://unciklopedia.org/wiki/Pocahontas_(film)
 * http://unciklopedia.org/wiki/Miniszoknya
 * http://unciklopedia.org/wiki/Macskarisztokraták_A_szörnyek_királya
 * http://unciklopedia.org/wiki/Lippai_Klaudia
 * http://unciklopedia.org/wiki/Kötény
 * http://unciklopedia.org/wiki/Ilyen_ma_egy_lány
 * http://unciklopedia.org/wiki/Bimbalattyó
 * http://unciklopedia.org/wiki/Amte_Starčević
 * http://unciklopedia.org/wiki/Apple
 * http://unciklopedia.org/wiki/Köllő_Babett
 * http://unciklopedia.org/wiki/Kateg%C3%B3ria:Azonnali_t%C3%B6rl%C3%A9sre_v%C3%A1r%C3%B3_lapok

Nomination of Variety Television Network for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Variety Television Network is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Variety Television Network until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished. Let'srun (talk) 03:17, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

title: User talk:Carlb


text:
User talk:Dvogel

ClockworkTroll 02:15, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:Dvogel


text:
Teachings of Prem Rawat

The core of Prem Rawat's teaching is that the individual’s need for fulfillment can be satisfied by turning within to contact a constant source of peace and joy. Rather than a body of dogma, he emphasizes a direct experience of transcendence, which he claims is accessible through the four techniques of meditation which he teaches. He calls these techniques "Knowledge" and says that Knowledge will take "all your senses that have been going outside all your life, turn them around and put them inside to feel and to actually experience you."

In his public speeches he quotes from Hindu, Muslim and Christian sources, but he relies on the experience provided by the four meditation techniques for his inspiration and guidance. According to scholar and follower Ron Geaves, this lack of professed concepts allows his followers a freedom of expression which is spontaneous and personal. Rawat places no outer requirements or prohibitions on those taught the techniques, nor does he regard himself as an exemplary leader. Practitioners are asked not to reveal these techniques to anyone else, but to allow others to prepare to receive the experience for themselves. Rawat has been criticized for a lack of intellectual content in his public discourses.

History
Scholars have asserted that Prem Rawat's teachings originate in the traditions of the North Indian Sants, who dismiss all religious ritual and dogma and emphasize the possibility of a direct experience of God, who, they claim, "dwells in the heart". Theologically, their teachings are distinguished by an inward, loving devotion to a divine principle, and socially by an egalitarianism that is opposed to the qualitative distinctions of the Hindu caste system. Sants believe that the Guru or Perfect Master is an embodiment of God and a fitting object of worship. Some of the more notable Sant gurus include Namdev (d.1350), Kabir (d.1518), Nanak (d.1539), Mirabai (d.1545), Surdas (d.1573), Tulsidas (d.1623), and Tukaram (d. 1650). Other scholars refer to affinities with medieval traditions of Nirguna Bhakti (Sanskrit = "formless devotion"), with a similar emphasis on universalism, equality and direct experience, and criticism of blind allegiance to religious ritual and dogma. Hans Ji Maharaj, Rawat's father and guru, was a devotee of Swarupanand, and became a guru in 1936 on Swarupanand's death. He began presenting his message and teaching the techniques of Knowledge in the small town of Najibabad, near Haridwar. His talks were strongly influenced by the reformist philosophy of the Arya Samaj, and he viewed himself primarily as the "Guru of the Poor". His teachings were rich in metaphor and more concerned with practical applications than theory. Unusually for an Indian teacher, he accepted students irrespective of caste, religion or status, and drew his share of criticism from traditional Hindus. In 1936 he published a book Hans Yog Prakash as a first step to broadening the dissemination of his message.

Teachings
Prem Rawat did not inherit a formal set of teachings nor did he develop one, as he sees conceptual thinking as the main enemy of the direct religious experience which he claims can be obtained through the techniques of Knowledge. His central claim is that God resides in every human being and the human quest for fulfillment can be resolved by turning inward to discover a constant source of contentment and joy. He gives equal billing to all religions, quoting from Hindu, Muslim and Christian sources, but rather than rely on scriptures for inspiration and guidance, Rawat relies on the experience provided by the four techniques of Knowledge. This lack of professed concepts allow his followers a freedom of expression which is spontaneous and personal. Neither in the time of the father, Shri Hans, nor in that of the son, did the Divine Light Mission possess a systematically developed set of teachings. Both saw [doctrines] as presenting more problems than advantages ... The young Guru explains that conceptual thinking, translated with the English word “mind” in German translations also, is the main enemy of direct religious experience. It is therefore hardly surprising that little firm information about DLM teachings can be obtained from his followers. On the other hand, the lack of professed concepts allows them a freedom of expression which is spontaneous and personal, and which makes an agreeable contrast with the unexamined reproduction of received teachings [such as are found in other Indian-inspired groups.]

In 1972 Rawat relocated to the U.S. and while his teachings remained essentially Hindu in origin and he continued with many Indian traditions, he managed with the minimum of Hindu terms and concepts, keeping his main emphasis on an individual, subjective experience. His first western discourses were criticized by some religious scholars as evangelical and lacking in substance and for stressing direct experience over intellect or religious conceptual thinking.

A reporter at an appearance in Boston described Rawat as "...a real human being. He spoke humbly, conversationally, and without any apparent notion that he was God. In fact he seemed to consciously undercut the divine stage show and the passionate words said in his honor. Devotees and mahatmas speak of him as the guy who will out-Christ Christ, yet the guru himself claims, not that he is divine, but that his Knowledge is". Sociologist James Downton observed that from his early beginnings Rawat appealed to his followers to give up the concepts and beliefs that might impede them from fully experiencing the "Knowledge" or life force, but this did not prevent them from adopting a fairly rigid set of ideas about his divinity, and to project millennial preconceptions onto him and the movement. Stephen A. Kent, in the preface of his book From Slogans to Mantras, described his disappointment at hearing what he considered to be a poorly delivered and banal message by Rawat in 1974, and was surprised that his companions spoke glowingly about the same message.

Prem Rawat has never asked for payment for teaching Knowledge but it was reported that in the 1970s, some Indian mahatmas asked would-be initiates to empty their pockets and give what they had prior to receiving Knowledge. In 1974, Rawat began using Western initiators to teach the techniques of Knowledge and continued to transform his teachings in order to appeal to a Western context.

By the early 1980s Prem Rawat had dropped the title "Guru" and eliminated the last of the Indian aspects. Rawat does not see himself as bound by conventional beliefs or practices of any institutionalized religion or tradition-honored world view. He is essentially an iconoclast who plots his route by pragmatic decisions to meet the demands and challenges that occur in his public career as a teacher striving to convince people of the value of self-knowledge. Rawat claims that practicing Knowledge will allow the practitioner to experience joy, self-understanding, calmness, peace and contentment. Practitioners describe Knowledge as internal and highly individual, with no associated social structure, liturgy, ethical practices or articles of faith. According to Ron Geaves, Rawat speaks spontaneously, with an emphasis on an individual's subjective experience rather than on a body of theoretical knowledge, and he draws upon real life experiences, including his own, rather than on interpretations of the scriptures. He is uncluttered by tradition in the manner of a contemporary Kabir or Nanak. Rawat advises students that for maximum benefit the techniques should be practised daily for at least one hour. He does not demand obedience, in that no outer requirements or prohibitions are placed on those taught the techniques. The axiom, 'If you like it, practice it; if you don’t, try something else,' is frequently given in his public discourses. Neither does Prem Rawat regard himself as an exemplary leader, a role often ascribed to religious founders.

The experience of Knowledge is described by practitioners as internal and highly individual. The techniques are to be practised privately, and have no related social structure or hierarchy. According to students, there is no liturgy or social obligation involved. They also say that the techniques are universally applicable and their practice has no impact on, or relationship to, a student's gender, race, sexual orientation, economic status, religion, or national origin.

Techniques of Knowledge
According to the Dutch religious scholar and Christian minister Reender Kranenborg and the American religious scholar J. Gordon Melton, the techniques of Knowledge are secret and were originally called "Light", "Sound", "Name" (or "Word") and "Nectar", but Maharaji now refers to them as the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th techniques. Rawat asks practitioners to promise "not to reveal these techniques to anyone", but says to "let other people go through their own journey ... [so] they, too, can have the techniques when they are ready."

Kranenborg and Melton provide differing details of them in their writings but agree on a general description of the practices. "Light" involves careful pressure on the eyes, seeking to open the "third eye" after a long period of training and practice. This is comparable to similar Tantric practices. "Sound" involves positioning the hands over the ears and temples, with the goal of hearing the "heavenly music". This is reported to be related to sabda-brahman meditation. "Name" or "Word" is a meditation concentrating on breath. "Nectar" involves tongue positioning, eventually leading the student to taste the "nectar of life". Michael Drury describes these techniques as helping the practitioner to develop "a deep and spiritual self-knowledge."

Teaching Knowledge / The Keys
In his early days in the West, Prem Rawat or his Mahatmas (renamed to "Initiators" in 1974) conducted "Knowledge Sessions" face-to-face in small groups. From 2001 the techniques were taught via a multimedia presentation made by Rawat. In 2005, Prem Rawat introduced "The Keys", a program of five DVD's which prepare the student for receiving Knowledge. The techniques are taught in Key Six. A request from a practitioner who feels they are ready to view Key Six will result in an invitation to a Knowledge Session. It is available in more than 50 languages (of which he speaks five himself: English, Hindi, Nepali, Spanish and Italian; the other languages are dubbed). In this presentation, Maharaji explains the techniques step-by-step, to ensure that they are understood and practiced correctly. This process takes 2½ hours, of which one hour is dedicated to practicing the techniques, 15 minutes each. Before the presentation starts, people are asked to keep three promises: a) to keep in touch, b) to give Knowledge a fair chance, and c) to not share these techniques with anyone. If attendees agree with these three promises they are invited to stay and receive "the gift of Knowledge."

The Knowledge Sessions are facilitated by volunteers who operate the video equipment and ensure the comfort of the attendees. Knowledge Sessions are available throughout the year in most Western countries. In special cases, such as people who are in hospitals etc., or are otherwise bed-ridden, the volunteers go to them to conduct the Session.

Scholars
George D. Chryssides writes that the Knowledge according to Prem Rawat was based on self-understanding, providing the practitioner with calmness, peace, and contentment, as the inner-self is identical with the divine. Rawat emphasizes that this Knowledge is universal, not Indian, in nature.

Ron Geaves, who specializes in studies in comparative religion at Liverpool Hope University in England and who is one of the Western students of Prem Rawat, writes that Prem Rawat himself has stated that he does not consider himself to be a charismatic figure, preferring to refer to his teachings and the efficacy of the practice of the four techniques on the individual as the basis of his authority. The showing of the four techniques replaces the traditional diksha, and although it marks the sealing of master/disciple relationship, that is not emphasized in the session itself. Rather, the focus is on correct practice and staying in touch through participation or listening. Prem Rawat’s teachings make no reference to any traditional authority, neither person nor text.

Stephen J. Hunt describes Rawat's major focus as being on stillness, peace and contentment within the individual, and his 'Knowledge' consists of the techniques to obtain them. Knowledge, roughly translated, means the happiness of the true self-understanding. Each individual should seek to comprehend his or her true self. In turn, this brings a sense of well-being, joy, and harmony as one comes in contact with one's "own nature." The Knowledge includes four secret meditation procedures and the process of reaching the true self within can only be achieved by the individual, but with the guidance and help of a teacher. Hence, the movement seems to embrace aspects of world-rejection and world-affirmation. The tens of thousands of followers in the West do not see themselves as members of a religion, but the adherents of a system of teachings that extol the goal of enjoying life to the full. They claim that Rawat's authority comes from the nature of his teachings and their benefit to the individual.

In Sacred Journeys sociologist James V. Downton writes "Aside from all the psychological and social explanations one could offer to explain their conversions, the fact is that, during the Knowledge session or afterward in meditation, these young people had a spiritual experience which deeply affected them and changed the course of their lives. It was an experience which moved many to tears and joy, for they had found the answer they had been seeking. It was an experience which gave their lives more positive direction, meaning, and purpose. It was an experience which brought them into a new relationship to life and removed many blocks to growth. It was an experience-which sages have spoken about throughout history-of the oneness of life."

Marc Galanter (MD), professor of Psychiatry and Director of the Division of Alcoholism and Drug Abuse at the New York University Medical Center, writes that "over the long term of membership, meditation also played an important role in supporting a convert's continuing involvement. An analysis of the relationship between the time members spent in meditation and the decline in their level of neurotic distress revealed that greater meditation time was associated with diminished neurotic distress. This association suggests that the emotional response to meditation acts as a reinforcement for its continued practice." That is, the more a member meditated, in general, the better the person was likely to feel. Members apparently used meditation to relieve distress, both at scheduled times and on an ad hoc basis.

Paul Schnabel a sociologist, references Van der Lans, a religious psychologist employed at the Catholic University of Nijmegen. Van der Lans says that among his Western students, Rawat appeared to stimulate an uncritical attitude, giving them an opportunity to project their fantasies of divinity onto his person. According to these authors, the divine nature of the guru is a standard element of Eastern religion, but removed from its cultural context, and confounded with the Western understanding of God as a father, what is lost is the difference between the guru's person and that which the guru symbolizes—resulting in what they refer to as limitless personality worship. Schnabel writes that this kind of understanding of the master-disciple relationship, alien to the original Eastern guru-disciple context, often ends in disillusionment for the disciple, who finds that the teacher in the end fails to live up to his or her expectations.

Former followers
Reports obtained by Ted Patrick and several scholars after deprogramming of several of Rawat's former worshippers refer to the experience of Rawat's "meditation" techniques as self-hypnosis, and as diminishing the ability to think both during the practice and for an extended period of time after cessation.

Others
Rawat has been criticized for a lack of intellectual content in his public discourses  According to David V. Barrett, at the heart of Prem Rawat's teaching is the Knowledge, and the experience is an individual, subjective experience rather than a body of dogma. In its Divine Light days the movement was sometimes criticized for this stressing of emotional experience over intellect. The teaching could perhaps best be described as practical mysticism.

title: Teachings of Prem Rawat


text:
Talk:Teachings of Prem Rawat

''See also:
 * Talk:Techniques of Knowledge
 * Talk:Techniques of Knowledge/Archive 1
 * Talk:Techniques of Knowledge/archive2
 * Talk:Current teachings of Prem Rawat
 * Talk:Current teachings of Prem Rawat/Archive 1
 * Talk:Current teachings of Prem Rawat/Archive 2
 * Talk:Past teachings of Prem Rawat
 * Talk:Past teachings of Prem Rawat/Archive 1
 * Talk:Past teachings of Prem Rawat/Archive 2

Orphaned references in Teachings of Prem Rawat
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Teachings of Prem Rawat's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Hunt": From Techniques of Knowledge: Hunt, Stephen J. Alternative Religions: A Sociological Introduction (2003), pp.116-7, Ashgate Publishing, Ltd. ISBN 0-7546-3410-8". The major focus of Maharaji is on stillness, peace, and contentment within the individual, and his 'Knowledge' consists of the techniques to obtain them. Knowledge, roughly translated, means the happiness of the true self-understanding. Each individual should seek to comprehend his or her true self. In turn, this brings a sense of well-being, joy, and harmony as one comes in contact with one's "own nature." The Knowledge includes four meditation procedures: Light, Music, Nectar and Word. The process of reaching the true self within can only be achieved by the individual, but with the guidance and help of a teacher. Hence, the movement seems to embrace aspects of world-rejection and world-affirmation. The tens of thousands of followers in the West do not see themselves as members of a religion, but the adherents of a system of teachings that extol the goal of enjoying life to the full." From Prem Rawat: Hunt (2003)

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 00:42, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Cleaning up the lead
This sentence (2nd last of lead) is a repeat of the first sentence of the lead and should be removed - "The core of Rawat's teachings is that the human need for fulfillment can be satisfied by turning inward to discover a constant source of joy within. And the last sentence does not accurately reflect the article and should be removed - "Rawat has been criticized for a lack of intellectual content in his public discourses". Momento (talk) 01:50, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The latter sentence is well-sourced and thoroughly discussed. It is required for NPOV and removing it would be a serious violation of policy. This topic is under probation.   Will Beback    talk    02:01, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually the article says- "His first western discourses were criticized by some religious scholars as evangelical and lacking in substance and for stressing direct experience over intellect or religious dogma". And it is surely beyond doubt that the second last sentence of the lead is a copy of the first.Momento (talk) 02:15, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Let's discuss one thing at a time.   Will Beback    talk    02:25, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

In checking the history, I see that, probably due to conflicting edits, the "intellectual content" was accidentally deleted by me from the body of the article. I've corrected that error.  Will Beback   talk    02:31, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I've had a look at the sources you cite, Melton and Schnabel and can't find anything about Rawat's talking. If Kent is the only source it should be removed from the lead and his full quote included in the article.Momento (talk) 06:20, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about?   Will Beback    talk    06:34, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Surely it's clear. You have used Melton and Schnabel as sources for your edit and I can't see anything in their material that refers to Rawat's talking.Momento (talk) 06:39, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * First, I reinstated material that you added, which I accidentally deleted as part of another edit a few minutes later. Second, we've discussed this material a few dozen times. I don't want to be rude, but I really think you need to review the past discussions rather than bringing up everything all over again as if the past never occurred. It's all in the archives.   Will Beback    talk    07:15, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The past is long gone. Please provide sources for this - "Rawat has been criticized for a lack of intellectual content in his public discourses". or I will delete it from the article and the lead..Momento (talk) 11:56, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about, it's cited right in the article, with page numbers of a reference even! If you remove this without a better cause, I will revert immediately. FYI, there's also an additional reference from Downton which no one's bothered to include, probably because it's unnecessary to add more to a common criticism of Rawat. -- Mael e fique (t a lk) 19:24, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Have you checked the sources? Only Melton says "The teachings of the Mission, particularly the public discourses of Maharaj Ji, were condemned as lacking in substance". There's nothing in Schnabel and Kent also says " I listened incredulously as my companions spoke glowingly about the message that they had just received. In fact, they were so moved by the guru's words that they made tentative plans to return the next day to pay homage to him by kissing his feet. I was flabbergasted, stunned." Barret says "The experience is an individual, subjective experience rather than a body of dogma, and in its Divine Light days the movement was sometime criticized for this stressing of emotional experience over intellect. Hunt says "For Elan Vital, the emphasis is on individual, subjective experience, rather than on a body of dogma." So why do we only have the criticism of Rawat's talks in the lead and none of the context? And none of the praise? Momento (talk) 20:56, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

 * As you know because you've quoted it before, Schnabel wrote what can be translated as :
 * The intelligent, ever-changing Bhagwan who gives daily performances is not more a charismatic leader than the pampered materialistic and intellectually quite unremarkable Maharaj Ji.
 * So we have sources that say the teaching is "intellectually quite unremarkable", that they "were condemned as lacking in substance", they were criticized for stressing "emotional experience over intellect", they "emphasized formal structure without substantive content", and that his parables are  "banal". There is a source that says "The real problem, from this humble observer's perspective, was one of content, or should we say, lack of content. They didn't have much to say, and they said it over and over again. [..] He's ... far from eloquent, and ... you hear repetitive, empty aphorisms." So there are plenty of sources to support that simple summary.    Will Beback    talk    23:27, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
 * There are three sources cited for the lead sentence. Schnabel in comparing Rawat to Bhagwan disqualifies him as a source for the sentence, since compared to a midget Rawat is tall but we can't say "Schnabel says Rawat is tall". The fact that Kent describes that his companions "spoke glowingly about the message that they had just received. In fact, they were so moved by the guru's words" means that must also be included in any quote of his. And Melton only talks about "as lacking in substance". Of the two sources quoted in the article Hummel says "1975 in Orlando/Florida, he spoke in a language similar to American evangelical campaigners". And Kranenborg doesn't mention Rawat talking. Not one says "Rawat has been criticized for a lack of intellectual content in his public discourses". And please don't confuse what "they said", the lead sentence clearly says "Rawat has been criticized for a lack of intellectual content in his public discourses". The only source of any value is Melton for "lacking in substance"and one source is not suitable for a place in the lead.Momento (talk) 08:13, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I just quoted material from six different sources. It sounds like you're discounting a scholarly source (Schnabel) simply because you think he should not compare Rawat to Osho. We've been over this material over and over.   Will Beback    talk    08:41, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately not one of your sources say "Rawat has been criticized for a lack of intellectual content in his public discourses". The closest is Melton's "lacking in substance" and if that's all there is, it shouldn't be in the lead. Perhaps you know of some other sources.Momento (talk) 09:22, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Momento, your arguments are specious and circular; and as Will points out, the material has been discussed beyond all reasonble limits. Unless you have new material to bring to the discussion you simply are not going to achieve any concensus for change - the fact that you don't like what is currently in the article is not a basis for further discussion.--Nik Wright2 (talk) 10:51, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

 * If any of our sources had the exact same phrase then we'd be plagiarizing them. It's a fair summary of the half-dozen sources.   Will Beback    talk    11:06, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Back at the Rawat article there are seven sources that describe Rawat with exactly the same word - "charismatic" and you are trying to stop that from being in the lead. Here you can't find one source that links "Rawat" with "intellectual content" and yet you insist that it should be in the lead. "Intellectual" comes from something the DLM was criticised for ( Divine Light... the movement was sometime criticized for this stressing of emotional experience over intellect). As WP:SYN says "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources". Momento (talk) 11:47, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Service, Satsang and Meditation
I finally found a source who talks about these things as central to his teachings. It is Reinhard Hummel. Shall I put it in? Rumiton (talk) 12:44, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

 * I think what would be best is of you put your proposed changes here so that everyone can see what exactly you would like to change/add/alter. -- Mael e fique (t a lk) 17:19, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

 * Yes, that is reasonable. I was just testing the waters before I spend some time translating it. Rumiton (talk) 09:50, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * OK. He writes that the "three principles [are] Meditation, Service and Satsang". Before that he talks about Prem Rawat's charisma as a Heilsmittler (a word which I cannot think of a way to fairly translate) and the attraction many found in his command to serve society and those in need. It gets difficult after that, because he seems to be suggesting that the DLM organisation got in the way of "service to society and the needy" and made "working for the organisation [the] preferred form of service." It's a bit ambiguous, but what is clear is that he promoted Service, Satsang (company of truth) and Meditation as his "principles". Rumiton (talk) 11:24, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * And now where to suggest inserting these principles into the article? The article has developed by concentrating on Knowledge (the meditation techniques) but anyone who was there will agree with Hummel that it was a three-fold path. I think this is important. I'll keep looking for a way without a total rewrite. Rumiton (talk) 11:51, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

How about a new section in the main body:

Service, Satsang and Meditation
According to Reinhard Hummel, the three principles of Prem Rawat's teachings are Selfless Service, Satsang (company of truth) and Meditation (the Knowledge.)

Then a short reference to this in the lead. Rumiton (talk) 11:59, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

 * How about it, guys? Can we do it? Huh? Can we? Rumiton (talk) 13:33, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

 * What is the exact change/addition you'd like to make to the lead? -- Mael e fique (t a lk) 22:35, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

 * I can't know that until we get the Hummel info into the article in a form that is acceptable to everyone. Then we can make a summary of that for the lead. You know, the normal stuff. Rumiton (talk) 13:11, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

 * In the absense of further comment, I shall make the change. Rumiton (talk) 12:29, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * This should be summarised and included in some way - "Performing Service, or good works, for the sect was a requirement, and giving Satsang was one type of Service, as it led others to hear that the knowledge was available. Other Service included helping with arrangement of speaking tours for the mahatmas and drawing new converts into the group. Premies could live in ashrams to devote themselves more full to Service. Premies often worked part or full time outside the ashram and gave a sizable portion-sometimes all-of their income to the movement. They also practiced celibacy, vegetarianism, and frequent meditation. The focus of this ascetic existence was their religious mission rather than personal pleasure or gain. (Cults: Faith, Healing and Coercion (Paperback) by Marc Galanter)Momento (talk) 13:28, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Obvious problems with that edit. It was undiscussed. I asked you above to show what exactly you'd like to add, you said you didn't know. Later, you waited 3 minutes (at what was 4am for me) after calling for further comments before making an edit. You created a section with a header that consisted of 1 sentence. None of that seems like a good idea to me. However, since you seem to have found something you'd like to work with, perhaps *now* you could post it here in talk, where it should have been first, so we can discuss it, and make the necessary changes. thanks. -- Mael e fique (t a lk) 15:03, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree with Maelefique. The Service, Satsang Meditation material should be integrated into the "Teachings" section as per "Techniques of Knowledge".Momento (talk) 22:05, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

 * Geez, Maelefique, and we were getting on so well! I posted it above. The heading and sentence is what I put up for discussion three DAYS, not minutes, before I put it in the main body. And as I said, the summary for the lead should reflect what we end up with for the article. I am perfectly open to suggestions about that. Rumiton (talk) 11:29, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

 * OK, my even-handed and collegial spirit has won out. I can see that my post was misread. Service Satsang and Meditation was the heading of this section, but it was also the heading I wanted to put in the article, with an expandable sentence under it. Please read again in that light. Rumiton (talk) 11:32, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Why don't you combine Hummel and Galanter?Momento (talk) 11:52, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't have Galanter. What does he have to offer? Rumiton (talk) 14:27, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I wrote it a few paras up.Momento (talk) 15:44, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I'm confused, and still not ok with this going into the article undiscussed, but here's the timeline I see...

First, I ask: To which you reply: followed by: then this:
 * What is the exact change/addition you'd like to make to the lead? -- Maelefique (talk) 22:35, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * "I can't know that until we get the Hummel info into the article in a form that is acceptable to everyone... Rumiton (talk) 12:29, 1 July 2010 (UTC)"
 * "In the absense of further comment, I shall make the change. Rumiton (talk) 12:29, 1 July 2010 (UTC)" That's just after midnight on July 1.
 * "Revision history of Teachings of Prem Rawat  04:32, July 1, 2010 Rumiton  (talk | contribs) (37,571 bytes) (→Teachings:  added the 3 principles.) "

I'm not sure where my 3 minutes came from, but that doesn't look like 3 days to me either... just after midnight, and then the change was made 3 hours later (maybe hours instead of minutes? but still, in the middle of the night?!) Both on July 1, and after I had asked you here explicitly to show me what you wanted in the article, and you said you didn't know. Further, the result isn't good enough either, since it leaves you with a 1 sentence section. I'm going to revert again until it's discussed, not because I'm so strongly opposed to the text (although I believe it still needs work), but I'm strongly opposed to not following the process. -- Mael e fique (t a lk) 01:23, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

This is a bit surreal. I suggested including the Hummel material on 28 June (in the middle of the night? Whose night are we talking about?) You say, "perhaps *now* you could post it here in talk." Have a look above, I already posted it on 28 June. See the line: How about a new section in the main body: and what followed. There was no discussion, which I took for agreement. I explained that I didn't think the lead should be changed until the article had become stable with the new information. Will someone perhaps explain to me where I went wrong? Rumiton (talk) 09:39, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Ok, read it all three times... is this what you're saying is the edit you were proposing? "According to Reinhard Hummel, the three principles of Prem Rawat's teachings are Selfless Service, Satsang (company of truth) and Meditation (the Knowledge.) Then a short reference to this in the lead. Rumiton (talk) 11:59, 28 June 2010 (UTC)" It had no context to it whatsoever, I thought this was a topic you wanted to discuss, not a verbatim edit you wanted to perform. Also, I see where I asked what you wanted to specifically put in the article, and I mentioned the word "lead", because I was still dealing with the lead issue over at PR, and because you referred to it as well. I was talking about the same thing you were. I didn't realize from what you said that you were suggesting that actual sentence should be in the article, and it doesn't appear that Momento did either. I don't see where you started out your comment with something like "I would like to add this to the article, in a separate section, "blah blah blah" (I'm paraphrasing) :), and that's why I didn't see where you had proposed it. Having said that, while I have no problem with putting the info into the article, I still think that leaves us with the problem of format. I'm still not feeling happy with the single sentence section idea. -- Mael e fique (t a lk) 00:40, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, no problem, it was probably all my fault. It's a fair assumption, I have found. Anyway, I am still trying to come up with a version that includes both Galanter's and Hummel's observations. I think it can be done, and would add value to the article. Rumiton (talk) 06:54, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

 * Once again I agree with Maelefique. Rumiton you need to be a bit patient and read what people write. You ask me above about Galanter's material which is five paras up from your question about it, so you obviously didn't read my contribution to this discussion. And therefore ignored my input and a valuable source. To summarise, I agree S,S & M should be in the article if RSs are found. There are two RS so far which should be summarised and proposed for inclusion in the article. When there is general agree as to its inclusion and form then you put it in. The next question is "Should it go in the lead" and my feeling is that two sources in the article for two sentences are barely enough for inclusion in the lead but I know there are many other sources that refer to satsang and service individually if not as part of the S,S and M platform.Momento (talk) 01:47, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, I missed that. It's Mealefique's fault, he was really ticking me off and I lost concentration. :-) I'll have a look now. I don't see any urgency to even think about the lead right now, don't know where that came from. Let's try to make the article body more informative first. Rumiton (talk) 09:13, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It would be difficult to combine the two, they would need to be cited separately, I think. Galanter seems to be saying that service was exclusively assisting the organisation in spreading the Knowledge. Hummel, while acknowledging that this happened, describes it as a narrowing of the universal idea of service "to society and the needy," the practise which led to Prem Rawat's father becoming known as "the guru of the poor." He states that Prem Rawat taught the same ideas that his father had taught, and this narrowing of definition stemmed from the Divine Light Mission's coming to regard their master as "Satguru" and the "Perfect Master of the Time" and ascribing to him the role of "Saviour" (not the exact translation). I will think some more of a way to put this which is true to both sources. Rumiton (talk) 10:00, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * On second and third thoughts, perhaps they are complimentary. Galanter is describing the same phenomenon as Hummel...the idea that service was only considered service if performed directly for the guru. But Hummel describes this as a weakening of his and his father's message of service to humanity and the poor. He attributes it to the view of Prem Rawat which was popularised by the Divine Light Mission, that he was Satguru, the Perfect Master and Saviour of the Age. He states (these are my words) that this religious attitude was "calculated" to undermine the central tenets of his message "from the start". It's interesting stuff. I don't think some people are going to like it. Rumiton (talk) 09:06, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) It's getting hard to follow the conversations in this section, but in reference to "ok, no problem" above, I don't think we need to blame anyone, if I get the chronology right and the intent now, I can see it was a misunderstanding of who was saying what and when, and what they meant by it. If we're all on the same page now (no pun intended), I think this information could go into the article as soon as we flesh it out a bit more. -- Mael e fique (t a lk) 18:48, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, no one is blamed. Let's proceed with the fleshing. Rumiton (talk) 05:04, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I need to consult a native German speaker about the translation of certain of Hummel's words and phrases. I'll get back here soon. Rumiton (talk) 11:58, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

 * There's also some material somewhere about DLM settings up medical clinics etc that were cut back because of the Millennium debt.Momento (talk) 22:10, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you remember where that material is? Perhaps it is connected to info on the old World Welfare Association, which was a charity he started in the early 70's. Rumiton (talk) 05:07, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

There are plenty of English-language sources. Based on these sources, it may be more appropriate to characterize it more as a requirement than as a mere teaching. It's not clear if it was only related to the DLM period, or if this continues to be a current "teaching".  Will Beback   talk    04:11, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Only Maharaj Ji has the key to it and only his appointed mahatmas or initiators may give Maharaj Ji's knowledge. This crucial fact that knowledge may only be revealed by Maharaj Ji, legitimates the leader's supremacy to the believers and ensures that seekers achieve these benefi ts from a single source. This immediately creates a bond between tbose who have knowledge and sets them apart from those without. This membership bond is an essential precondi tion for organization. Two other requisites cement the collectivity of premies into a social organization. Not only are all premies enjoined to practise meditation on the knowledge, they are also required to do service and attend satsang. Service is concerned with any kind of endeavour which promotes the work of Maharaj Ji and his mission. All officials and volunteers at functions are doing service; any premie who earns money to donate to the mission or to Maharaj Ji is doing service; even work done with a loving and giving heart is so  regarded. Satsang literally means 'holy discourse' or 'the company of truth'. Satsang takes place whenever a premie speaks to someone else 'from within his heart' about the experience of knowledge, the love of Guru Maharaj Ji or the necessity of meditation. In practice, premies tend to meditate according to private schedules, to do service when called upon by those who do the organizing (a service too) and to hold Satsang together regularly, several times a week. This is what is expected of them by Maharaj Ji and the mission functions partly to bring premies together for Satsang as often as possible.
 * The Divine Light Mission as a social organization. Sociological Review, 27, Page 279-296/1979 By Maeve Price
 * ''Anctil described the mission as "a group of individuals who live autonomously, practice a meditation and do selfless service. The Maharaj Ji is a spiritual inspiration for those people who do meditation."
 * Associated Press
 * Meditation, satsang (which is discourse on the Knowledge), and service are salient spiritual practices in the Mission. These practices, as well as devotion to the guru, are thought to bring the premie into closer contact with the spirit. Thus, premies believe that the most promising way to make a fundamental change in themselves and to break out of the cycle of war, hatred, and violence in the world is to cultivate a deeper relationship to God through spiritual practice and surrender.
 * An Evolutionary Theory of Spiritual Conversion and Commitment: The Case of Divine Light Mission* JAMES V. DOWNTON, JR Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, 1980,19 (4): 381-39
 * The Mission fortifies this inclination by offering the Truth within, the bliss that comes with practicing the meditation techniques, attending satsang, and doing service.
 * Worshiping the Absurd: The Negation Of Social Causality Among The Followers of Guru Maharaj Ji Daniel A. Foss Ralph W. Larkin Sociological Analysis, 1978, 39, 2:157-16
 *  Devotees are told from the beginning that Sat Sang and service are as necessary as the meditation to the realization of the knowledge. At this juncture all three activities begin to overlap, and in this context one is able to observe the activities of this burgeoning religious movement as a social movement with potential implications for the rest of the social order. This, then, is where one begins to look at "manifestations of the knowledge" on the group level. [..] Most hold full-time jobs outside the ashram and put in two hours of service in the evening; all adhere to a rigid schedule of Sat Sang, service, and meditation from 5:30 to 10:30.
 * Guru Maharaj Ji and the The Divine Light Mission JEANNE MESSER
 * Besides, there are very few specific regulations. Meditation, satsang, and service are the three musts for a devotee. But, aside from the somewhat rigid schedule of those who live in an ashram, it is left to the individual to determine the amount of time allotted to these obligations. The three are placed in a personal context for they all have the Guru as their object. Meditation is on that Knowledge given by Guru Maharaj Ji; satsangs frequently dwell on the grace the Guru has bestowed so generously on the devotee; and service is primarily directed towards the Guru or to activities to which the Guru has assigned priority.
 * THE GURU: PERCEPTIONS OF AMERICAN DEVOTEES OF THE DIVINE LIGHT MISSION John A. Saliba HORIZONS 7/1 (1980), 69-81
 * ... the central activities of satsang, service, and meditation, which, for members, provide the whole rationale and basis for the organization.
 * Jim Kemeny, COMMENT On Foss, Daniel A. and Ralph W. Larkin. 1978. "Worshiping the Absurd: The Negation of Social Causality Among the Followers of Guru Maharaj Ji." Sociological Analysis 39, 2:157-164.
 * Thanks for that Will. It seems this article needs quite a lot of work, focused as it is on the meditation techniques. I agree the word "teaching" doesn't do it (he really has never taught anything) but I can't suggest how else to describe SSM. The word used above, "enjoined", comes pretty close, but it isn't in everyday use. "Requirement" isn't quite right. "Recommended" is pretty close -- if you didn't want to do it, you walked. And yes, he hasn't changed his advice. Most current premies do their service through the TPRF, either as direct supporters of his work or in its international charity projects. Rumiton (talk) 09:30, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * "Requirement" seems to be correct, based on the sources. ("required", "necessary", "musts", etc) If one didn't engage in SSM, could one still be a part of the movement or a student of Prem Rawat? FWIW, I believe I saw that the brother also teaches (or whatever) SSM. While it'd be nice to say more about this topic, there don't seem to be many sources that go into much detail. Does anyone have better sources than those I've quoted above? If not, then there's might be enough here for a couple of sentences, which will be partly redundant with what we have in the DLM article.    Will Beback    talk    10:14, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't much mind "requirement". Re your question; yes, quite a lot of people never seemed to do anything at all, but they stayed around and still show up whenever Prem Rawat is in town. They are definitely considered students. The ashrams were different, of course, if you went in there you had to work hard and behave very strictly. Hummel is a good source for this. I have asked a translating colleague for some advice, as Hummel uses some academic terms I am not 100% sure about. Rumiton (talk) 10:41, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Regarding his brother Satpal, I am sure he would be teaching exactly what their father taught them, but I have never read anything in English about his work. Rumiton (talk) 10:44, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * If you use a foreign-language source, could you please provide the excerpt being cited in its native language?   Will Beback    talk    11:07, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course. Rumiton (talk) 12:43, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

In reviewing the sources, it appears that most of them refer to the mission or to the practices of followers, and all of them are from before 1981. Would it be better to expand the existing coverage in the DLM article and just have a short summary and link from this article?  Will Beback   talk    07:50, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I am not sure what you are suggesting. Rumiton (talk) 11:57, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The DLM article has a section titled "Beliefs and practices" which already covers SSM. I'm suggesting using these sources to expand that section. For this article, a sentence or so saying the Rawat and the DLM advocate/require/recommend SSM, and a brief description. Before we do that, are there more recent sources that discuss SSM and Rawat?   Will Beback    talk    20:54, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I have a small problem with that. The DLM is a long-defunct organisation, as Elan Vital soon will be. His teachings (if we have to call them that) were not part of DLM and have not changed, so they require their own article. The only relevance for newer sources might be regarding the formation and progress of TPRF, an organisation formed to help him spread knowledge and to provide service to humanity. Quotes regarding his current day teachings about service, etc. are abundant on their website and show their continuity. Rumiton (talk) 12:57, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Look at the sources - Do any of them discuss Elan Vital, or WOPG? No, they are all from before 1980. Thirty years ago. We don't have any sources that even say this is still a part of the program. "His teaching were not part of the DLM"? That makes no sense to me. SSM is closely connected to the DLM, so if those weren't Rawat's teachings then they certainly don't belong here. If there is a recent self-published website that describes SSM then we can use that here, but I don't see any. The other sources all seem to refer to DLM and the DLM era. Our job is to summarize those with the neutral point of view, not to impart the truth we know.   Will Beback    talk    20:40, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * This is my 4th attempt at replying. I need to go offline for a few days to sort out my computer problems. Rumiton. 114.77.242.145 (talk) 14:26, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, I am back with a working computer. The problem I see is that to attach SSM only to the DLM article is to suggest SSM were a defunct organisation's teachings rather than Prem Rawat's. Sources such as the | Better Business Bureau's Wise Giving Alliance tell us that TPRF was founded by Prem Rawat to "to promote and disseminate to the general public the speeches, writings, music, art and public forums of Prem Rawat; to support, fund, and promote humanitarian initiatives for the relief of physical hunger and thirst through practical and tangible means; and to provide relief to natural disaster victims worldwide." This is Satsang and Service; the Meditation is in the Keys. It seems to me this continuity can and should be reflected in this article. Rumiton (talk) 12:39, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Welcome back to Cyberia. All of the sources talk about the DLM, or date from the DLM period. The BBB source is obviously a second-hand, though still reliable, primary source for TPRF's self description. If we want to cite it for the fact that TPRF is intended to "to promote and disseminate to the general public the speeches, writings, music, art and public forums of Prem Rawat;.." then we can do that. However that is not SSM by name, and we shouldn't decide on our own that it is and call it that in the article. Prem Rawat didn't invent SSM. At a minimum, he inherited it from his father and the DLM. It's also taught by his brother, Satpal, IIRC.   Will Beback    talk    13:09, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Did you miss the 2nd part, about service to humanity? Of course he didn't invent the concept, but he has been teaching it consistently since arriving in the west, at least. If we don't want to call it SSM, we can draw synonyms from the sources. The link still needs to be made. Rumiton (talk) 13:18, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I got that. The general point is that most references refer to the DLM, so that material should go in the DLM article. The BBB/TPRF self-description is usable, but we can't draw any conclusions or make any linkages. At most, we can place it next to a discussion of SSM, and allow readers to draw their own conclusions. But the problem is that since TPRF has no direct connection to Prem Rawat, we'd be discussing what it does rather than what he teaches, so I don't see how we could even frame it for this article.    Will Beback    talk    21:38, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see his connection to TPRF as problematic, they describe him as "the founder of TPRF." But I don't have a problem with saying that he started that charity in the same paragraph as his teaching SSM. I am still working on the translation of Hummel, which gives a bit more light on this subject. Clarifying some ambiguities is proving more difficult that I thought. The thrust of Hummel's research is the suggestion that PR has continued his father's work as "the Guru of the poor," but that the guru-devotee relationship which was fostered by the organisation worked to narrow that focus down to doing service only to him, not to humanity. Rumiton (talk) 10:05, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll be interested in seeing that when it's ready.   Will Beback    talk    10:13, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Satsang, Service, and Meditation were taught by Prem Rawat, but I never, ever, not even once, heard that "Service" was supposed to be "service to humanity," or in anyway anything remotely close to serving anyone other than Guru Maharaj Ji, or Prem Rawat himself. The closest thing to "Service to humanity" was to support Rawat's work and he has never spoken about giving money or selfless work to other people. To try to finesse the wording in this teachings article, to make it appear that the teachings of SS&M, (which are terms that have long been obsolete in this NRM and are no longer used by Rawat) is to rewrite the true and realistic history of this NRM and the teachings of Rawat.  It would be a distortion of Rawat's core teachings to describe "Service" as anything but service to Rawat alone. "Service" was always taught by Rawat as "service to Guru Maharaj Ji," period, the end.  Btw, there probably isn't a reference to it, but the other part of the teachings besides SS&M, was Darshan.  So Rawat didn't just demand that "premies must do Satsang, Service, and Meditation," he also taught they must also go to see him, whenever they could.  Sylviecyn (talk) 12:21, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Remember the World Welfare Association? I recall him talking about relieving the suffering of people when I was an aspirant, but the idea we should try to do something outside of service to him was poo-pooed by my coordinator. Anyway, it is what Hummel says that is relevant, not our recollections. The problem I am having there is that he makes his points over several pages, so I can't just grab quotes out. (I also agree that darshan was an important part of it.) Rumiton (talk) 16:04, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Many of the scholars discuss darshan, but the main source would obviously be Lucy DuPertuis How People Recognize Charisma: The Case of Darshan in Radhasoami and Divine Light Mission  Sociological Analysis 1986, 47, 2.111-124.    Will Beback    talk    20:41, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It's getting further from the idea of a "teaching" though. Not sure how to proceed with that, or with SSM for that matter. None of it was "taught" in the sense people expect when they read the word "teachings." Rumiton (talk) 13:02, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

title: Talk:Teachings of Prem Rawat


text:
Pine Forest High School

Pine Forest High School is a high school in Pensacola, Florida. It was opened in 1975, with the first day of class being 10 November '75.

Pine Forest High is located on Longleaf Drive in a cluster of education buildings.

Athletics
Pine Forest won the USA Today High School Football National Championship in 1988 (and the Class 5A state championship) after compiling a 13-0 record, becoming the first Florida team to win the award The Eagles also won the 5A state championship in 1987 and the 4A state championship in 2000. Three former Eagles now play in the NFL: Mike Johnson of the Atlanta Falcons, George Selvie of the Dallas Cowboys, and Alfred Morris formerly a Redskin and a Cowboy currently.

Pine Forest Women's Track and Field team won back to back Florida 3A State Championships in 2010 and 2011.

The mascot is the eagle, and the colors are red, white, and blue. The fight song is Hoorah for Eagles a rendition of Hooray for Auburn!! The original fight song was a version of Ghost Riders.

Fall sports

 * Cross Country
 * Football
 * Golf
 * Swimming
 * Volleyball
 * Soccer

Winter sports

 * Men's Basketball
 * Women's Basketball
 * Women's Weightlifting
 * Cheerleading

Spring sports

 * Baseball
 * Softball
 * Tennis
 * Men's Track
 * Women's Track
 * Men's Weightlifting

Notable alumni

 * Daniel Alvarez, former professional soccer midfielder
 * Chuck Clanton, former NFL defensive back
 * Martin Emerson, current cornerback for the Cleveland Browns
 * Dan Fike, former NFL offensive lineman
 * Paul Jackson, lead guitar, rhythm guitar, backing vocals Blackberry Smoke (2000–present)
 * Mike Johnson, offensive guard for the Atlanta Falcons
 * Donald (Eugene) Kirkland, lieutenant general in the U.S. Air Force
 * Alfred Morris, running back for the Washington Redskins
 * Loucheiz Purifoy, cornerback for the University of Florida
 * George Selvie, defensive end for the New York Giants
 * Seante Williams, former NFL defensive end
 * Devon Witherspoon, Current cornerback for the Seattle Seahawks
 * Mitchell Robinson, NBA player

title: Pine Forest High School


text:
Corona (band)

Corona is an Italian Eurodance project. Initially as a group formed by Brazilian-born singer and model Olga Maria de Souza and producer Francesco "Checco" Bontempi (a.k.a. Lee Marrow), they found commercial success with the worldwide hits "The Rhythm of the Night" (1993) and "Baby Baby" (1995). After the second album, Bontempi left the group and was replaced by Francesco Conte and Paolo Dughero.

Beginning of the band's career: 1993–1996
Corona's first single, "The Rhythm of the Night", was released in Italy in November 1993 on Roberto Zanetti's DWA record label and became an instant hit. It featured the voice of the Italian singer Giovanna Bersola, better known by her stage name Jenny B. It stayed at number 1 on the Italian music chart for eight consecutive weeks, but was not released elsewhere until the following year. A remixed version of the song became a number 2 hit in the United Kingdom in September 1994. Like several early 1990s Eurodance/Hi-NRG songs that eventually became American hits, "The Rhythm of the Night" did not become popular in the United States until well after its success had peaked in Europe. However, by spring 1995, the song was all over American radio and clubs, eventually reaching #11 on the Billboard Hot 100. It was later released as a track in the 1995 studio album The Rhythm of the Night. Lead vocals for the remaining songs in the album were by the Welsh singer Sandy Chambers who also sang on the group's second album, Walking On Music.

Corona followed up with the 1995 singles "Baby Baby" and "Try Me Out", with similar success. The single "I Don't Wanna Be a Star" was a moderate hit. A fifth single, "Do You Want Me", became a regional hit in discotheques in the Eastern U.S. The Rhythm of the Night album sold modestly, peaking at #2 on the US Top Heatseekers chart and at #154 on the Billboard 200.

1996–2004
In 1996, after the demise of Discomagic Records, DWA Records reorganized its staff due to internal conflicts. As a result, the production of Corona was moved from DWA Records to Bontempi's own label (World Of Music, which was also a sublabel of Discomagic).

The third album, And Me U, was released in 2001 by Brazil's Abril Music, under the name Corona X. This time the vocals were by new vocalists, the sisters Bernadette "Brandy" Jones and Bambi Jones' (who died of cancer in 2010). Again, de Souza was just the face but still not the voice, as many people thought. Although Bontempi co-wrote some of the material in the album, he did not participate in the production and left the band. In 2004, as a tribute to de Souza's native Brazil, Corona sang "A cor dos teus olhos" ("The Colour of Your Eyes") which was distributed by 5000. De Souza described the song like an imprint of her childhood memory. It was an immediate hit. The same year "Garota Brasileira", a song with spicy samba sounds, became a hit in Japan.

2005–2009
Towards the end of 2005, Souza finally sang on the records for the first time and re-emerged onto the European music scene with "Back in Time", peaking at #36 in the Italian charts. It was followed by "I’ll Be Your Lady" (2006), the first song co-authored by de Souza.

2010–2016
Corona's album Y Generation (2010), reached #1 on the Italian iTunes dance album chart. The first single was "Angel"”, followed by "Saturday" and "My Song". Corona's last single, "Super Model" reached #44 on the Italian Singles Chart and was later included in a re-edition of the album called Y Generation Remixed.

2020s
In February 2024, they were selected alongside DJ Jad, Wlady and Ice MC to compete in the final of Una voce per San Marino 2024, the Sammarinese national selection for the Eurovision Song Contest 2024. They finally placed 14th in the contest classification while the Spanish Rock music band Megara took 1st place.

title: Corona (band)


text:
User talk:Ommnomnomgulp

Nomination of Cassie Jaye for deletion
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Nomination of Legacy and influence of Mad Max in popular culture for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Legacy and influence of Mad Max in popular culture is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

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title: User talk:Ommnomnomgulp


text:
User talk:Marklar

comments
Please add your comments.

This is my Page.
Microchrystalline apitite

nanobe nanobacteria nannobacteria

(pre-solar grains)

Mars!

Chromists and Diatoms

exobiology astrobiology

Life vs Mineral

--Marklar 15:50, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

ClockworkTroll 02:18, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:Marklar


text:
John Ordway

Sergeant John Ordway (c. 1775 – c. 1817), the youngest of ten siblings, was an important part of the Lewis and Clark Expedition across the United States. John Ordway was one of the sergeants from the United States Army who stepped forward to volunteer for the Corps of Discovery. Ordway exercised many responsibilities on the trip, such as issuing the provisions, appointing guard duties, and keeping the registers and records. John Ordway also kept a detailed journal about Native American life during the expedition.

Early life
John Ordway was probably born in 1775 in the town of Hebron, New Hampshire, though some sources say Dunbarton.

Lewis and Clark Expedition
Sergeant Ordway was recruited for the journey at Fort Kaskaskia. He was 29 years old and one of the few educated men on the trip. The expedition lasted from May 1804 to September 1806. Before the journey, John Ordway sent a message to his parents telling them of the purpose and determination of the expedition: "We are to ascend the Missouri River with a boat as far as it is navigable and then go by land, to the western ocean, if nothing prevents, &c. This party consists of 25 picked Men of the army & country and I am So happy as to be one of the, pick'd Men...We are to start in ten days up the Missouri River...We expect to be gone 18 months or two years...If we make Great Discoveries as we expect, the united States, has promised to make us Great Rewards more than we are promised, &c.""

In February 1804, during the staging of the journey and still at Camp Dubois (also known as Camp Wood), Illinois, while Lewis and Clark were away and Ordway was in charge, some of the men became drunk while they were on their guard duty. In another incident on March 29, 1804, privates John Shields and John Colter, who were second cousins, threatened Ordway's life. Both were put on trial for mutiny. However, both of them pleaded for, and received, forgiveness. After Colter's return from the Oregon Coast with the Lewis and Clark Expedition Colter became the first known person of European descent to explore Yellowstone National Park and to see the Teton Mountain Range. Colter is widely considered to be the first known mountain man..

On the trip back to St. Louis, Missouri, where they started, John Ordway was asked to lead 10 men back to the head of the Jefferson River, where the Corps left their canoes before crossing the mountains. They were to follow the river and travel to the Missouri River, where they would meet Lewis and Clark. Ordway and his group successfully completed this assignment.

Post-Expedition years
John Ordway returned from the Lewis and Clark Expedition and married Gracey Walker and became a successful landowner in what became New Madrid County, Missouri. He became the owner of two plantations, peach and apple orchards, which became very prosperous.

Death
In 1817, Ordway died of unknown causes at approximately age 42.

title: John Ordway