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Talk:Loop quantum gravity/Archive 1

LQG and GLAST
so if GLAST does not observe variance with the speed of light, is LQG falsified?

on the other hand, if GLAST DOES observe such variance, will nobe prizes be handed out?

also what does it mean that LQG does not recover the classical limit? How is it that if you start with General relativity, quantize it, you are unable to recover General relativity?

Nice work
Miguel, nice work today. Thanks. -- Mcarling

Cosmology
The whole paragraph entitled "LQG and quantum cosmology" should be removed. It has nothing to do with LQG, or relativity, or quantum mechanics. These are theories about the physical universe and say nothing about "truth," and terms like "observer" and "measurement" when used in these theories are used in a very specialized and specific way.

People that do not have a full graps of the nature of theories about physics often make such extrapolations about other unrelated philosophical concepts, though the one that I have heard the most is the Uncertainty Principle means that there is no absolute truth; the thing about light cones implying there is no absolute truth is a new one on me. It is even a farther strech, since all light cones mean is that information can propgate through space at a limited speed.

I can assure you that this claim is not made by anyone who has a deep, mathematical understanding of these theories, and it is very misleading to those who do not have a basic understanding of relativity.

I do not want to be mean, but it is annoying to see people make such unjustafiable claims and mislead others.

 * Three Roads to Quantum Gravity is a cute little book, but it should not be the basis for this article. -- Miguel

--DGB
 * I'm the dumb guy that made above four paragraphs. First of all, I did not make any changes to the article; I merely suggested them.  Second of all, I did not know these were claims  were taken from a book made by a theoretical physcist.  Trust me, I know theoretical physcists (being a physics undergraduate, a mere undergraduate, mind you) and I do know about people making unreasonable claims about such things as "absolute truth" based on the uncertainty princple and aspects of relativity (e.g.- Ah, this must mean that all things are "relative!") that have been refuted by my professors.  I do believe there is a place in physics for philosophy.  (For example, the definition of a "measurement" in Quantum Mechanics is still a debated issue, and there are a lot of problems with time that are being consdiered in a phiolosophical manner.)  Really, what I thought the statement was was another statement in the form "There is no truth because of x..."  I misunderstood it.  I sincerely apologize for jumping to conclusions on a matter WAY beyond my knowledge and retracted my comment, especially because it is overly contentious.  (And I especially defer to Miguel and the other moderators on this page who have a very deep understanding of the nature of Physics.)

 * I didn't say you're dumb, and I am not disagreeing with you, but I do think you were undiplomatic. Also, the article is originally based on a single person's reading of Three Roads... and it does contain some misinterpretations whicj should be corrected. Finally, I am not a moderator and you should all be bold in updating pages. -- Miguel

The set of four paragraph above this is one is rich. The third one in particular asserts that Lee Smolin, professor of theoretical physics and a leading researcher in both LQG and String Theory, doesn't have "a deep, mathematical understanding of these theories."

The anonymous author of the above thereby diminishes his or her own credibility. I am therefore tentatively reverting the other changes made by this person until citations in the literature are provided or Miguel confirms them. -- Mcarling

 * Gee, I have just been elevated to the rank of "expert" here. Well, like my fencing instructor says, an expert is someone who knows one more thing than you do. Anyway, here's my take on this (for what it's worth) -- Miguel

 * 1) measurement, observers, and other philosophical issues are not irrelevant to quantum gravity.
 * 2) Lee Smolin knows what he's saying, which doesn't mean that one of us paraphrasing from his popular works will know what we're saying.
 * 3) Hack away at the article, but don't be contentious. And if you choose to remove material from the article, put it in the talk page.

---

The article says LQG predicts variations in the speed of light with frequency, violating Lorentz invarience. Science magazine, 29 Aug 2003 says that this is true of other QG theories (which have now been disconfirmed on that basis), but not of LQG. Thus, the article seems wrong on this point.

--- Ahem. "Some of the players..."? Please put this article in proper form, with the external link at the end marked as such.

And, add some intro for those who don't know anything about string theory. The casual reader is not going to read through explanations of ten theories that s/he doesn't understand, before reading this. They're just going to read this, because this is the latest and greatest theory, right? Thanks.

Also it's nice to know that LQG avoids the philosophy of science problems by offering disprovable hypotheses. But does it rely on new math - ff so it still has the philosophy of mathematics problems of a very narrow base of proof checkers. And, are there two mathematical models that result in the same perceived physics? If so that opens up the same questions as in string theory re: reality of math in a world presumably 'built on' physics.

--

I made the form charges suggested by moving the list of players to the end and putting the links in list form. I disagree that string theory should be explained in the LQG page. String theory is an alternative approach and is referenced here for contrast and because it is likely to be of interest to those who are interested in LQG. I haven't read every paper in the field, but it seems that LQG has made use of math that was previously known in mathematics, but not in physics. I don't know of any math that was developed specifically for LQG.

--

LQG makes use of techniques that have been standard both in mathematics and physics for decades. It is based on a reformulation of classical general relativity (Ashtekar's "new variables" - also decades old in the mathematical literature) which makes the old idea that general relativity is a gauge theory of the Lorentz group work. All the tools of quantum gauge field theory that proved so successful in particle physics could then be used for quantum gravity.

LQG is a very conservative physical and mathematical theory in many respects, but it is also revolutionary in its implications for fundamental physics and the nature of space-time.

Integration theory on spaces of connections is somewhat new, but the tools are standard functional analysis, direct and inverse limits, and the tools of axiomatic/algebraic/constructive quantum field theory, which had been developed over several decades to make sense of the conceptual problems of quantum field theory.

Some of this stuff will make its way to the main page, I promise.

It is appropriate in a talk page to say that the fact that the theory is relatively successful without introducing extreme amounts of mathematical baggage or extraneous physical assumptions (like supersymmetry) makes it very attractive to people who are tired of string theory. -- Miguel

Theory may be the only thing loopy.
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0308214

The paper above presents experimental evidence suggesting that theories of quantum gravity must not violate Lorentz invariance. It purports to refute those theories of quantum gravity which violate Lorentz invariance at high energies (on the order of 20 TeV). Is LQG Lorentz invariant? I know LQG is diffeomorphism invariant, but I'm not sure about Lorentz invariance. Anyone know? -- Mcarling

The paper also mentions constraints on "large extra dimensions", in case anyone thought String Theory is not affected (grin).

LQG has been used to make calculations suggesting Lorentz violation. Here are some references:

http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0205103

http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9909079

LQG is manifestly a gauge theory of the Lorentz group. However, the quantum spacetimes appearing in the theory might not be Lorentz invariant at the planck length. This is an open problem, and not everyone agrees that the two papers I quote are correct. On the other hand, this issue has motivated people to look again at the possibility that Lorentz invariance is not an exact property of out universe. See these papers for an overview of one possibility that people are exploring.

http://arXiv.org/find/gr-qc/1/ti:+AND+relativity+AND+doubly+special/0/1/0/all/0/1

Loop quantum gravity could be formulated by replacing the Lorentz group with a q-deformed "quantum group" (not a group, but a Hopf algebra). This is related to the cosmological constant. Presumably the low energy limit would still be Lorentz invariant, though. -- Miguel

questions
2003.12.23 19:20 EST

Please forgive me if I breach protocols here. I just read the LQG article in SciAm and have some questions.

 * 1) Is there any research into a relationship between MOND (the discrepancy between observation and prediction of Newtonian dynamics at very low accelerations in galactic disc rotation) and LQG?
 * 2) Does LQG's strength essentially come from sidestepping the mathematical intractability issues of string theory by avoiding the assumption of continuity of spacetime?
 * 3) Are gravitons needed in LQG, or is the gravitational field represented by the structure of spacetime itself?
 * 4)    (From before I knew of LQG) Why are gravitons still expected/predicted if gravity is warped spacetime?  And why aren't the other, stronger forces considered to warp spacetime as well?  (Maybe they are warping the other dimentions of the 11 predicted by string theory?)
 * There is a theorem in QFT that states that any operator following certain conditions(such as locality) may be expressed in terms of creation and anilation operators(thus the field may be thought of as the exchange of virtual particles)
 * They do warp the other dimensions(see Kaluza-Klein theory).

 * 1) What does LQG say about Bose-Einstein condensates, the double-slit experiment, and other quantum "weirdness"?
 * probably nothing; those are already explained by quantum mechanics
 * JeffBobFrank 20:59, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

And I'd like to make some comments. Most amazing to me is that one of the most mysterious and curious phenomena, gamma ray bursts, are one of the most promising tools for testing LQG. Like the carbon synthesis resonance was for some, this is, to me, almost too much of a coincidence to permit me to keep my atheism!

danw hooya27 at yahoo dot com

corrections
3/6/04

I removed a number of incorrect statements. LQG is not yet known to have the correct classical limit in 3+1 D. I shortened the section on the Kodama state. There were any number of incorrect statements in the comparison section, so I replaced it with something hopefully a bit less tendentious.

singular vs plural
I disagree with singularizing the links to twistors and ashtekar variables. Although one can indeed speak of a twistor, there is no such thing as a single Ashtekar variable. — Miguel 04:41, 2004 Apr 20 (UTC)

 * I don't know anything about Ashtekar variables, so will yield on that one. But twistor is already existing as a singular article, and it's Wikipedia standards to use singular article titles wherever possible, so I'd prefer to leave that one changed. Bryan 04:43, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * This is not about arguments of authority ;-)
 * Ashtekar variables are "a self-dual spin connection and a triad", which boils down to three real vectors and a complex 2x2 matrix at each spacetime point. The whole collection is referred to as "Ashtekar variables", so the  singular denomination is clearly inappropriate. — Miguel 04:59, 2004 Apr 20 (UTC)

 * The Wikipedia policy is to use the singular form except where the usual noun form is a plural, e.g. scissors, pants and electronics. You have to use your judgement as to whether it should be plural in this case. Google returns 20 times as many results for the plural form. I don't know about ashtekar variables, but I'm quite sure there's nothing wrong with using the singular form of twistor. -- Tim Starling 05:17, Apr 20, 2004 (UTC)

Wilson loops and spin networks section
I don't like the Wilson Loops and Spin Networks section at all. Any suggestions for improvement? — Miguel 20:27, 2004 Apr 24 (UTC)

 * I think this article could really use some nice diagrams of the graphs and "spin foam" that this theory's all about, showing how time and space are quantized. The recent Scientific American article on loop quantum gravity seemed to have some very good diagrams, to my admittedly untrained eye; they gave me a somewhat intuitive grasp of the basics (which I hope is correct :). Bryan 20:54, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * You would hope that Lee Smolin would do a good job of explaining the intuitive interpretation.

 * I think I should go in and write Wilson Loop to begin with. After what I wrote in the history section, I think the current Wilson Loops and Spin Networks looks grossly inadequate. — Miguel 20:55, 2004 Apr 24 (UTC)

 * Wilson Loop is currently orphaned, and needs some knowledgable person to stitch it into the fabric of the wikipedia in the right place. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:28, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * fixed. After some redirect fun, it's linked from Loop quantum gravity now. --

 * We need an administrator to move the page to Wilson loop and make Wilson Loop a redirect to Wilson loop (with the proper capitalization: my mistake). — Miguel 21:35, 2004 Apr 24 (UTC)

 * Will do. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:37, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * Done. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:41, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Structure, diagram
As more sections are added to this article, it's becoming rather ungainly. Can I suggest grouping some of the related subsections into a larger one - I'm particularly suggesting grouping all the "LQG and XXX" into some section called something like "Implications of LQG for other physical theories" or somesuch). And while I realise I'm not going to get a photo, is there any chance of getting a diagram of something (I'm really thinking from a shallow aesthetic perspective). Thanks -- Finlay McWalter |  Talk 23:55, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

How about this image? I'll ask my advisor for permission to upload it to Wikipedia. — Miguel 05:38, 2004 May 1 (UTC)

 * Sure (providing it's actually helpful). The Tuftian in me says "colour is good" but equally "only meaningful pictures are worthwhile.  And I understand absolutely that scientific visualisation, even of stuff far more concrete than LQG, is hard. -- Finlay McWalter |  Talk 19:06, 1 May 2004 (UTC)

 * What do you mean "provided it's actually helpful?". Like it or not, that is what a spin network _is_. — Miguel 14:49, 2004 May 2 (UTC)

 * I meant it to moderate my own request for a picture, to make it clear that I wasn't asking for any old picture that might just look nice. I'm in no position to judge whether a given picture or diagram is infact helpful. -- Finlay McWalter |  Talk 15:36, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

 * The question is, helpful to whom. Given what you know and don't know about physics, geometry, and spin networks, what does the picture need to do to be helpful to you?

 * Check out Greg Egan's website. Do you find that helpful? Could you incorporate its content into the article?

 * — Miguel 22:19, 2004 May 2 (UTC)

Fotini
Anonymous user 64.63.220.180 basically pasted the content of Fotini Markopoulou-Kalamara into the mathematics section of the article. I am removing that. — Miguel 05:07, 2004 May 4 (UTC)

yeah i wanted to have something to say, but i added "more stuff to be added later"

Lubos Motl
hey miguel, if you read lubos motl's article here on wiki

 * He has a presence on the Internet, where he often participates in discussions and flame wars between loop quantum gravity and string theory

FLAME WARS

 * Look, I read s.p.r. sometimes and I used to read it regularly when Motl was around. He got in debates with people because s.p.r. is a haven for those who dislike string theory and he is very uncritucal about just how successful string theory is in terms of actual contact with experiment or even the standard cosmological model or the standard model of particle physics. But I would not characterize the exchanges a flame wars. People did not go around insulting each other, and s.p.r. is moderated. You just can't get involved ina flame war with a newsgroup moderator like the article used to claim. I prefer to just state the fact that vigorous discussion took place and that his dissatisfaction with s.p.r. led him to create s.p.strings. Also, he was genuinely interested in getting the facts straight. When Baez started advertising a connection between the Immirzi parameter (which string theorists were fond of as an embarrassment of LQG) and some observable physical quantity from General Relativity, Motl took it seriously and got a paper out of it.

 * There are too many anonymous users adding controversial statements to this article. — Miguel 21:01, 2004 May 10 (UTC)

actually miguel, "too many anonymous users" it's just one person, *me* mostly who made virtually all the new articles, and virtually all the subsections, but virtually everything i've written i can show there is support for it (i.e scientific american, 3 roads to quantum gravity, etc.). my name is Dan by the way :) i'm not registered though, and QG and Gospel of Thomas are the only topics i'm currently interested in.

by the way "Lumidek" i bet is Lubos Molt, b/c he's the only one who knows it's spelled Motl, and cares enough to re-spell Molt to Motl, and would know about the "heated debates" - that john baez is the moderator, about proving the imizi parameter, etc.

 * Amusingly, you are actually right about this, Google dixit. — Miguel 23:47, 2004 May 10 (UTC)

 * Don't be silly, anyone who reads s.p.r. knows his name is Motl, knows about the heated debates, and any wikipedian would care enough about the misspelling. — Miguel 23:25, 2004 May 10 (UTC)

 * Also, review the edit history: I was the one who mentioned that Baez is a moderator, and the bit about the Immirzi parameter. Just because I think that Motl has a big mouth doesn't mean that I agree with the way the polemic on s.p.r. was described. — Miguel 23:29, 2004 May 10 (UTC)

FLAME WARS VERSUS VIGOROUS DEBATE
"Just because I think that Motl has a big mouth" LOL - that's for sure!

When Lubos Molt aka "Lumidek" wrote HIS OWN BIOGRAPHY here on WIKI, he characterized the "vigorous debates" on sci.physics.research as "FLAME WARS", here on WIKI the "vigorous discussions" between Trovalds and Tannebaum has been characterized as "Flame Wars"

 * Care to denounce Lubos Motl as a vanity page on Votes for deletion? I don't. Be warned that a VfD by an anonymous user would look suspicious of ulterior motives anyway ;-) — Miguel 14:51, 2004 May 25 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_(computers)

"In the early 1990s, monolithic kernels were considered obsolete. The design of Linux as a monolithic kernel rather than a microkernel was the topic of a famous flame war between Linus Torvalds and Andrew Tanenbaum; a summary is available online. There is merit in both sides of the arguments presented in the Tanenbaum/Torvalds debate. "

Miguel, care to edit this page to change "flame wars" to "vigorous debates?" personally when i call something a "flame war" i also mean it as "vigorous debates"

 * A flame war is an acrimonious debate involving insult, provocation, and/or hostility. Certainly vigorous debate and flame war are not synonymous.

 * However, I retract my previous statement that you just can't get into a flame war with a newsgroup moderator. It seems that Lumidek's style as moderator of sci.physics.string includes using his moderator comments to flame people ;-)

 * —Miguel 14:51, 2004 May 25 (UTC)

hi miguel
it's me dan. i don't know how to register. i got a couple of points i suspect they suffer from NPOV. they are exactly the things he's posted on sci.physics.research.
 * 1) lubos molt's bio seems impartial so i wouldn't vote it for deletion, although he did describe his own "debates" with john baez/steve carlip as "flame wars"
 * 2) if you read trovald and tannebaum's debates, i would not describe them as "acrimonious" and "invovling insults and/or hostility", it was quite academic and intellectual between monolithic and microkernels, and computer scientists have studied the merits of both positions, but a lot of geeks fondly and AFFECTIONATELY describe these vigorous debates as "the flame wars of tannebaum and trovalds."
 * 3) i've spoken to john baez, and uh calling lubos molt a big mouth is an understatement LOL. he defends string theory and attacks LQG with a religious passion.
 * 4) there was a false post on sci.physics,sci.physics.research that was falsely attributed to John Baez. I cut and pasted it on lubos baby, sci.physics.strings, because i thought and honestly mistaken that it was by john baez, and he tore it apart. you could say he flamed john baez. when johh baez said the article wasn't his, lubos apologized, but every sentence he tried to pin the blame on me :(
 * 5) if you read how he (lubos) "debunks" lqg, a reasonable person would have to characterize it as "acrimonious" "involving insults and/or hostility". among other things he stated on a post he wish LQG would just wither and die, and that it is an "anything goes" approach to physics.
 * 6) recently lumidek aka lubos molt, edited this page. i've read so many of his posts on sci.physics.research and strings, and i've written many of the articles, that it's easy for me to spot his additions and emendations.

his emendations and additions I've put in quotatation marks.

"and stringy papers outnumber loopy papers by a factor of roughly 50:1."

 * He conveniently forgets to point out that LQG is mostly stablished at the level of rigour of mathematical physics, as opposed to string theory, which is established at the level of rigour of physics. — Miguel 03:35, 2004 May 27 (UTC)

"Mathematically, the theory is modelled after Riemann's metric geometry, but the Lorentz group of spacetime symmetries (an essential ingredient of Einstein's own theory of special relativity) replaces the group of rotational symmetries of space."

 * I think I might have written or substantially expanded on that. — Miguel 03:35, 2004 May 27 (UTC)

"It is not clear whether an approximate Lorentz invariance can be recovered in LQG at long distances and whether LQG can explain the plethora of successful experimental tests of special theory of relativity."

 * Forgets to point out that LQG is manifestly a local gauge theory of the Lorentz group. — Miguel 03:35, 2004 May 27 (UTC)

"Despite the broken Lorentz invariance, LQG is formally background independent. The equations of LQG are not embedded or presuppose space and time (except for its topology that cannot be changed),"

This reflects a philosophical view that gravity is the very geometric fabric of space and time, and that a quantum theory of gravity must be a quantum theory of space and time "while all other particles and forces must be independent; LQG predicts that unification of forces can never occur."

 * LQG does not purport to be a theory of everything, just a theory of quantum gravity. The onus is on String theory, which does make such grandiose claims.
 * Unification has not been observed, and there are some indications that it migt not even be there (the original error bars on the renormalization group beta functions for the different forces have shrunk to the point where unification can no longer be expected from low-energy phenomenology). The quest for unification _is_ a philosophical prejudice. — Miguel 03:35, 2004 May 27 (UTC)

Additionally, the spectrum of radiation of particles emanating from the event horizon of a black hole has been calculated from LQG's theoretical framework and precisely predicted. "Unfortunately, this prediction strongly disagrees with Hawking's semiclassical calculation."

 * Modulo the immirzi parameter, which is the only free parameter of LQG, it matches it on average, and additionally predicts a fine structure to it, which is 1) experimentally testable; 2) potentially an improvement (to use a semiclassical calculation so far unconfirmed by experiment as a benchmark for an exact nonperturbative fully quantum calculation is a stretch, methinks). — Miguel 03:35, 2004 May 27 (UTC)

LQG in its current formulation predicts neither supersymmetry or additional spatial dimensions, "nor anything else about particle physics"

 * LQG does not purport to be a theory of particle physics. It does not require supersymmetry or extra dimensions, but can accommodate them. Lubos seems to fail to grasp that LQG is at its core not an alternative to strings but an alternative to "perturbative quantum field theory on a fixed background". — Miguel 03:35, 2004 May 27 (UTC)

"Unlike particle physics and string theory, a theory that follows the principles of natural science and whose assumptions can be studied critically, LQG insists on various assumptions that cannot be questioned."

-- dan

 * I should add these comments of mine to the article, but I don't have time! I have a dissertation to write and an academic year to end. — Miguel 03:35, 2004 May 27 (UTC)

Hi, dan!

Small world -- you're the dan that posted Sarfatti's stuff to s.p.s, which got Miguel looking here, causing him to point out Lubos Motl to me, and then when I look deeper into controversy surrounding User:Lumidek, here you are again! ^_^

If you want a username, the follow the link "Log in" at the top of the web page. You only need to pick a new user name -- the email stuff is entirely optional. You don't need a user name, but they're very convenient.

I agree with your characterisation of the Linus/Tannenbaum "flame war" -- see my edit to Kernel (computer science) (and my edit summary -- follow the "Page history" link to see this).

Most of Lubos's edits to this page seem OK, but I did change the one that I found to be egregious. You can do that too; edit wars are bad things, but most people go along with it when you edit their contributions. If not, then talk to Lumidek about it here (politely, of course ^_^).

-- Toby Bartels 01:14, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

Hi Toby!

LOL if miguel were to post his response to lubos/lumidek those response line by line LQG article would be much better! :P

if you read Joao Magueijo's, a Spanish physicist like miguel, book faster than light, a book lubos dismisses (flames?) both the content and the author, he said that both "camps" are liken to religious fundamentalists! lubos' attacks on LQG both on sci.physics.research and here and his advocacy of strings reminds me of how christian evangelicals "discredit" other religions and promote their own. of course, i've seen this sort of think in mac versus windows, amd versus intel, ati versus nvidia, CISC versus RISC, etc. but mostly in Christian fundamentalists/evangelicals.

 * Magueijo is Portuguese!!! A fair number of portuguese might want your head on a platter if they found out that you thought a prominent portuguese was from Spain ;-) — Miguel 06:51, 2004 May 27 (UTC)

anyone who critiques or questions string theory uh well here's lubos, ahem "vigorous debates" on amazon.com

Lubos says, "Let me start with science. Joao Magueijo's theory is unimpressive - in fact, let's admit that it is silly. The author has showed that he has no idea what relativity means....It is sad that the people like Joao Magueijo can get a job ("reader") in Europe...Unfortunately his knowledge of physics is poor and he has nothing real to contribute. In my opinion, he should not have earned a PhD in physical sciences. In fact, he is much more interested in his being visible than real science....the competition in the U.S.A. is simply much tighter, and arrogant crackpots similar to Joao Magueijo would have a very small chance to get a job in the States. Although one should also say that Joao Magueijo has made it to the New York Times. Well, the journalists like sensations and they're not always able to distinguish whether there is some real idea behind the sensation or not. Unimpressive"

 * Lubos' ability to embarrass himself by engaging in personal attacks never ceases to amaze me. — Miguel 06:51, 2004 May 27 (UTC)

Lubos, while moderator of strings, spoke of John Baez "criticism" of string theory (which was really by jack sarfarti) among other things as having "limited intelligence" and Sheldon Glashow mild criticism's of string theory as "slightly narrow-minded."

one reviewer of this book said "His theory could knock down two solid pillars of cosmology--inflation and relativity. Not only does his radical notion deserve a trial by fire, it also deserves a champion like Magueijo, who isn't afraid of the flames. --Therese Littleton"

as far as flame wars, language is a very flexible and evolving tool. perhaps the flame war wiki article should be edited as many use "flames" in a much broader sense. the term "never constructive" is too strong.

i recognize it must feel rather disappointing to invest one's life in the wrong theory and both LQG and string theory makes enormous academic demands on its researchers. personally after reading all of lubos, ahem "rigorous debates" i've been hoping that (a) supersymmetric particles are not discovered in 2007 at Europe's LHC, and (b) violations to Lorentz invariance is observed by GLAST also in 2007. of course, any combination of a and b could be falsified or verified. 2007 may be a watershed year for Quantum Gravity.

Focus on LQG
Let's stop discussing Lubos and start discussing LQG, shall we?

By the way, this talk page is now over 31 Kb. Time to archive?

— Miguel 06:57, 2004 May 27 (UTC)

hi miguel

"Magueijo is Portuguese!!! A fair number of portuguese might want your head on a platter if they found out that you thought a prominent portuguese was from Spain ;-) — Miguel 06:51, 2004 May 27 (UTC)"

it's great to see that quantum gravity hasn't removed your sense of humor LOL

"Let's stop discussing Lubos and start discussing LQG, shall we? "

of course.

i added several subsections, such as space atoms, time, kinematics, where to study LQG at the graduate or doctoral level, etc. i cut and pasted the section on wilson loops, which you removed, to the "space atoms" section, expanded the section on experiments to include both GLAST and LHC, added remarks by Brian Greene. i also offered an alternative explanation to the 1:50 ratio papers lubos cites.

personally though i wouldn't commit my post-bachelor graduate studies either to string theory or LQG, until experimental evidence comes in, esp. the evidence from 2007 to 2010, and then commit to whichever is most strongly supported by the experimental evidence.

Moved from article
I think most of the following content belongs more properly in quantum gravity. Also, time for me to work more on the spin network page. Wilson loop looks ok. — Miguel 08:14, 2004 May 28 (UTC)

title: Talk:Loop quantum gravity/Archive 1


text:
Talk:Telephone numbers in Australia

Arbitrary section from 2004
Proposed alternatives (testing layouts - works in progress):

some ideas to contribute: regional (state) should be divided into two sections

e.g. for nsw, 02 6xxxxxxxx - regional 2 02 4xxxxxxxx - regional 1 (telstra defines the exchanges as either metropolitian, regional 1 or regional 2)

-- Chuq 02:12, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

pmj: I found the numbering plan somewhat lacking, not to mention ambiguous. I've updated it based on my experience, and the ACA documentation. The new table is twice the length of the old, but less "heavy" in appearance. pmj 03:43, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Chris: I'm uncertain about the accuracy of the statement that 13/1300 numbers cannot be called outside Australia. I have on a number of occasions been able to call 13 numbers from overseas. They are called in this format: +61 13 45 67. Chris 03:20, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

pmj: Thanks for pointing that out, Chris. There are confirmed reports of 13 numbers working from overseas on Countrywide and Whirlpool. The configurable nature of SmartNumbers allows them to be set up to reject calls from mobile phones; presumably, this extends to international calls as well, with most organisations electing to block such calls.

I have removed the offending statement, as well as your dispute. I encourage anyone with precise knowledge of this matter to submit an accurate explanation. pmj 06:24, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Is There A 06 or 09 Area Code?
I received a call from +61 6 xxxx-xxxx. Can anyone tell me what the 6 means? Perhaps it's a recently-added area code. 2601:1C2:4E02:3C3E:CCE2:FD9B:8F3F:B2C9 (talk) 05:11, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

I also received a call from a +61 9 xxxx-xxxx number. The (09) prefix is not listed anywhere either.

 * I think with the dawn of VoIP services it's possible - I know people who moved interstate and an oversight with their ISP meant their phone number remained the same for a couple of years before it was "localised" *

02 4xxx xxxx
These numbers aren't strictly "coastal NSW". The old 04x prefixes were usually the fringe area codes around Sydney, i.e for places like Camden, Newcastle, Richmond, Wollongong, etc. They extended to about 250 km from Sydney where then the 06x area codes took over. I'm not certain if that was a hard and fast rule, just what I remember. Peter1968 09:39, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
 * The Sydney region started off as the Sydney Metropolitan Unit Fee Area (SMUFA) - i.e. no matter what the originating and terminating ends, the call was charged a unit fee. Later, the Extended Local Service Area (ELSA) was created - a band around the SMUFA to include areas like Palm Beach, Windsor, Richmond, Penrith, all the way round to Helensburgh; I don't think it included Newcastle or Wollongong. It was a unit fee call from one of the ELSA zones to the adjacent tandem exchange (e.g. Penrith to Blacktown and all its dependent exchanges, and Penrith to the adjacent ELSA zones) but a longer distance call (e.g. Penrith to Parramatta, or Penrith to a non-adjacent ELSA zone) was a timed call. 47 was the code for Penrith, 45 for Windsor, 46 for Campbelltown - but I can't recall the codes for the other ELSA zones.

Prisoner of Zenda (talk) 11:11, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

mass call service
The item 'mass call service' seems to be wrong. It seems that on page 181 of the numbering plan the number is 1140 (ex. 11409).

Look on the next page, it includes the rest of the 114 range. Lazybeam 12:11, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

106 first what?
The article says that ‘The 106 number is believed to be first in the world’. Does this refer to being the first tty emergency number in the world? —Felix the Cassowary 10:03, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Maybe this should be made more encyclopedic, and link to a tty emergency page, or something. Clarify: I believe that 106 is the first national-wide TTY emergency number in the world, not necessarily the first TTY emergency available. Lazybeam 12:13, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Sub-areas
Whoever added the zones in Sydney (ie the 02 90**, etc), I reckon that should be moved into a separate section, and other areas included. The original list was meant to be just a general overview. If we are going to start doing that, we might as well start listing exchange ranges, or at least charge zone areas. Lazybeam 12:22, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

 * OK I've separated them out and added Brisbane. When I get a chance I'll change the formatting of the numbers in the Brisbane area (Make them like "07 30" instead of "(07) 30"), change Sydney and Melbourne to the same format, and add in Adelaide and Perth. Source is []. I also don't like the asterices in this section, tossing up between replacing them with xs or nothing. So "02 9***" should become either "02 9xxx xxxx" or simply "02 9" to be more correct. This is because of things like Telstra's "1*" dialling thingy (one-star) might be ambiguous. I prefer the latter. Lazybeam (talk) 13:07, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

using standard formats
May I suggest an emphasis on transcribing telephone numbers acording to the *standard* formats ? I notice a common tendency in A/a to transcribe many numbers according to idiosyncratic formats ( eg omitting the "0" of the area code etc..trascribing the "04" of a mobile as if it were an area code etc..)which IMO makes for confusion, especially in databases etc.As someone with experoience of working in an emergency service environment where correct number recording/transcribing was often time-critical, I find it disturbing that the standard formats are so often ignored with potentially serious consequences. I am not sure what causes this confusion, except perhaps ignornce of the implications..any ideas ? Feroshki 01:02, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Bathurst Island?
Do they use numbers outside the (08) 89xx xxxx for NT? I know NT has since been allocated (08) 79xx xxxx. Lazybeam 15:41, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Wording
Section/Overview says "The area codes do not exactly match political territories." political is not the correct word here. "officially recognised boundaries" would be closer but there is a better phrase - just wish I could think of it right now.

A very useful and helpful article - tells this reader, at least, exactly what is needed and also gives dates for technical changes which is also very helpful in this type of article. 124.169.217.145 (talk) 07:06, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

No access for SIM-less carriage services to emergency call service ???
I went to these pages while trying to understand the Australian numbering plan in order to place a call. Curiosity made me read the paragraph about 000 and 112 emergency numbers.

I understand here that a regulation in Australia specifically prevents some people to call an emergency service, just because they have no SIM when they place the call ? This seems unreasonnable, I would believe that the reasonnable regulation would be to oblige the carriers to allow emergency calls even if the SIM card is missing... Did I understand the right way ? And if yes, what is the reason for that ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Michelgre (talk • contribs) 12:40, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

AFAIK The regulation was brought in to make 000 the same as 112 on mobile phones, so that 000 will work no matter what. Without it 000 would work through the SIM where 112 bypasses it. 112 is always the emergency number on GSM phones. Interestingly my near-new phone only auto-unlocks on 112 and 911. I used to have a phone that also unlocked with 08, 999 and 000. Lazybeam (talk) 10:13, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Cocos (Keeling) / Christmas
I was looking up the phone codes for Cocos (Keeling) and Christmas Islands, and it seems perhaps that the list given here is in reverse? When checking tourism site #s, Christmas numbers are 61 08 9164, and Cocos (Keeling) ones are listed 61 08 9162; however, on the list given here, those are reversed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.239.51.6 (talk • contribs) 19:17, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Telstra Landline Test numbers are incorrect
>Telstra Landline Test numbers >12722123 - Playback the last connected or current landline number >12722199 - Ringback the current landline number

They are incorrectly listed. They should be: 12722123 - Ringback the current landline number 12722199 - Playback the last connected or current landline number

/dave. Bushy555 (talk) 03:52, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

No they are correct. 199 was the callback and 19123 was the playback - changed to 12722xxx in the 1990s renumbering. http://whrl.pl/RH1cQ Lazybeam (talk) 11:31, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Wikivoyage Area Code Complaint
Hi! Over on Wikivoyage we've received a complaint about this page, concerning some factual errors. I've copied it below and hopefully you'll be able to resolve this issue. Thanks! :) --Nicholasjf21 (talk) 18:36, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

 * Hi
 * I was reading about your area codes on the page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_numbers_in_Australia#South-east_region_.2803.29

 * i found it VERy interesting that the eastern region, BAIRNSDALE, now has phone numbers that are 03 41. Wow. I live in Bairnsdale and I can tell you that our phone numbers ALL start with 03 51. the next digit for our area is either 52 or 53 therefore our phone numbers are (03) 5152 xxxx or (03) 5153 xxxx.
 * You need to remove the supposed "41" for our region phone number. Whoever has given you this information obviously knows that (03) 41 does not and wont exist for this area of the state. the codes are not positioned like that. I work for the telco business in this area so I am a professional in the telecommunications business

 * Asked by: 121.214.109.103 17:59, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

 * Not a factual error: a new range: (03) 41 is added to (03) 51, like the (03) 8 was added to (03) 9. See http://www.acma.gov.au/Industry/Telco/Numbering/IPND/numbers-specified-for-use-numbering-i-acma - has nothing to do with subsequent digits. As a professional you should also know that there have been ranges added since 1996, especially non-Telstra prefixes. Telstra isn't yet using anything in (03) 41 that I can see, but it is using parts of 5150 and 5156, so not just 5152 and 5153. Lazybeam (talk) 14:25, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Article contradicts itself regarding mobile numbers
At the end of the "mobile phone" section, the article states "Mobile numbers must always be dialed with all 10 digits, no matter where they are being called from. 04 is a prefix, not an "area code", as such."

However, earlier, it provides an example of how with international dialing the 0 can be omitted for mobile (and other) numbers: "Internationally the first 0 is replaced by the +61 country code (e.g. +61 2 xxxx xxxx for NSW or +61 4xx xxx xxx for a mobile number)."

So, which is it? Is the zero always necessary or not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tekhnofiend (talk • contribs) 00:39, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Calling mobiles from landlines?
If I was to use the international designation to call a mobile phone from a landline in Australia, for example if I dialed +61 455 555 555 instead of 0455 555 555. Would I incur international rates? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sir Langan (talk • contribs) 05:00, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

In my experience there is no difference. In fact they recommend you store it in your phone as +61 455 555 555 so if you are international roaming it will be easier to call home. Lazybeam (talk) 14:26, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Mobile phone numbers table
What on earth does the hideous table under mean? It is garish, compressed, unintelligible and it is unclear how to read it.

—sroc 💬 14:49, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Numbers for mobile services were originally allocated to Carriers as shown in the table - but a problem soon arose: when a customer with Carrier A wanted to move to Carrier B to take advantage of a better deal, the customer had to get a new number in Carrier B's range. The problem disappeared when number portability was mandated by the Fed Govt: a service that was originally with one Carrier may now be 'ported' to a different Carrier - without changing the number. Prisoner of Zenda (talk) 04:24, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Alternate format for country areas
In Victoria before the introduction of nation-wide 8-digit numbers, country areas used to be able to dial within the same area by just dialing the last 6 digits. A number that has been converted to (03) 5198 7654 would have originally been (051) 987 654. Because of this, many (if not most) country residents still specify their numbers in the following format: (03) 51 987 654. Can a reference for this be found and included in the article?

Danielklein (talk) 07:00, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

References (section 10)
The links for references 4 and 10 do not work. The correct links are: 4. http://www.acma.gov.au/theACMA/fictitious-numbers-for-radio-film-and-television-i-acma, and 10. http://www.acma.gov.au/theACMA/calling-the-emergency-call-service-from-a-mobile-phone--faqs. I have yet to work out how to correct them: the edit function shows only ref [2] ... so perhaps someone much smarter than I can fix them? Prisoner of Zenda (talk) 04:13, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

More than 1½ years later, these dead links still show ... can someone please fix them? Prisoner of Zenda (talk) 08:47, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
 * If you're still active, Lazybeam, you may care to have a go at fixing these links that have been wrong for more than 10 years. Prisoner of Zenda (talk) 21:17, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * first one may have changed again https://www.acma.gov.au/use-phone-numbers-fiction 203.6.69.2 (talk) 23:00, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Pre 1960 (Alphanumeric) numbers
Seem to read everywhere that before 1960 numbers were 1 or 2 letters, followed by 4 digits. Further that there were only 9 letters (mapping to digits) - A B F J L M U W X Y. I've noticed, though (on old advertisements, e.g. on trove) that sometimes there's numbers that begin with 'C'/'CA'. An example would be in this page from the Adelaide Advertiser (bottom Right - John Martins C4400, Miller anderson C7900 - in fact it seems all of the Adelaide City centre was C-prefixed). Just wondering whether anyone knows how the C would be dialed (or whether SA had different letter prefixes to the rest of the country? or ....)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.6.69.2 (talk • contribs) 22:21, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

+672
I'm wondering if it's worth mentioning in this article since Norfolk Island uses it. As Norfolk is an Australian possession, it probably should be included. SHB2000 (talk) 04:33, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Telephone numbers in Australia


text: User talk:69.211.128.144

title: User talk:69.211.128.144


text:
Competition number

In many sports, a competition number is used to identify and differentiate the competitors taking part in a competitive endeavour. For example, runners in a race may wear prominent competition numbers so that they may be clearly identified from a distance. Competition numbers are differentiated from uniform numbers in that the former are used for a specific event (for example, competition numbers worn by marathon runners) while the latter persist over time through multiple events, seasons, or sometimes an entire career (for example, uniform numbers worn by Major League Baseball players).

Competition numbers may also be called bib numbers when worn on bibs over, or affixed to, the athletes' tops. With new technology, bibs might contain timing chips for electronic identification. In addition to identifying an athlete, many high profile events also imprint sponsor logos. In such high profile events, bib numbers are mandatory. Failure to wear them could make an athlete subject to disqualification.

Athletics
Since the 2000s, track and field athletes at major competitions wear their names as well as their numbers on their bibs. In relay events, all team members have the IOC country code. Track athletes also wear lane numbers on the shorts called "hip numbers", for identification by the fully automatic timing system which photographs athletes from the side as they cross a finish line. In racewalking events, competitors also must wear numbers on their backs for identification by the judges after a violation has been detected.

In mixed competitions, like marathons, where professional athletes run on the same course as non-elite athletes, the professionals traditionally wear bibs with their names to differentiate their pre-race status.

Motorsport
In some types of motorsport, such as rallys, competition numbers are attached to the vehicles taking part in a specific event. The competition number can also be used in conjunction with some kinds of timing systems, such as targa timing.

Other sports
Other sports that may utilize competition numbers include:
 * Alpine skiing
 * Biathlon
 * BMX racing
 * Gymnastics
 * Snowboarding
 * Triathlon

Notable competition numbers
While the uniform numbers of various sportspeople have become well-known (for example, Wayne Gretzky's 99, Michael Jordan's 23, and Mickey Mantle's 7), this is rare for competition numbers, which generally are used by an athlete only for a single event. Some notable exceptions include:

 * 6 used by Paul Bikle, a gliding competitor. The Bikle T-6, a glider, was named for Bikle's competition number and the T-tailed design of the aircraft.
 * 13 in cycling, which is commonly worn upside-down due to triskaidekaphobia.
 * 51 in the Tour de France, due to a false belief that it has been worn by more winners than any other number.
 * 261 in the Boston Marathon, due to it being worn by Kathrine Switzer in the 1967 edition of the event, when she became the first woman to run the race as a numbered entrant. Switzer later created a non-profit organization named 261 Fearless.

At the 2019 Boston Marathon, organizers gave special bib numbers to several celebrities. Former NFL player Tedy Bruschi was given 5454, his uniform number repeated; NASCAR driver Jimmie Johnson was given 4848, his car number with Hendrick Motorsports repeated; and Joan Benoit Samuelson was given 1979, the year of her first win in the event.

title: Competition number


text:
Cyber Team in Akihabara

Cyber Team in Akihabara (アキハバラ電脳組) is a 1998 Japanese anime television series created by Tsukasa Kotobuki and Satoru Akahori. It aired from April 4, 1998, to September 26, 1998, on TBS and ran for 26 episodes. It was released in the United States by ADV Films and was also broadcast on international networks such as Anime Network (United States), AXN Asia (Singapore, Philippines and Thailand), Locomotion (Mexico, Colombia, Venezuela, Argentina, Spain and Brazil). A 1-hour featured animation film of the series was subsequently released in Japan entitled Cyber Team in Akihabara: Summer Vacation of 2011 (アキハバラ電脳組　２０１１年の夏休み); unlike the series the film was produced by Production I.G and Xebec. The show has an array of characters, many of whom are named after birds, gods, and real-myth villains. The conception design was hand drawn.

Media format initial was Japanese VHS Vol. 1-7 release on 23 Dec 1998, along with LD. Outside JP, NA region had 2004 volume and a complete DVD collection box released on 2006, by ADV Films. In 2016, announcement made by King Records for a limited Blu-Ray box set release, are included all various video benefits, a 48P booklet and Summer Vacation 2011 film which already had VHS and DVD JP physical retail.

Story
Twelve-year-old junior high school student Hibari Hanakoganei lives in Akihabara, a suburb of Tokyo, in the year 2010. The current craze among young girls in Akihabara are electronic pets called "Pata-Pi." Hibari seems to be the only girl in town without one and can only admire the PataPi owned by her best friend, Suzume, whom she has named Francesca.

Late one evening, Hibari sees a hill and recognizes a person standing beside a tree at its peak as "her Prince", who has been appearing to her in her dreams. She runs towards him and he mysteriously vanishes. A glowing sphere descends from the sky and lands on her palms. It materializes into a PataPi. She hugs it and the adventure of Hibari and Densuke the PataPi begins.

Unbeknownst to Hibari, she is under the watchful eye of a shadowy character and is ambushed while walking home from school by strange creatures called Homunculus and a masked woman (Jun). Hibari finds out that they are after Densuke and strives to protect him. When all else fails, Jun calls out a more powerful creature called Cerberus to attack Hibari and take Densuke from her. Out of extreme love for Densuke, Hibari cries out and an intense beam of light descends from the sky onto Densuke. Densuke vanishes and transformed into a woman in a black body suit to which various mecha components materialize and bond to her. Densuke has become the Diva (Aphrodite), who looks remarkably like Hibari. Aphrodite soundly defeats Cerberus while Jun runs away in defeated frustration. Unknown to Hibari, a masked man in black (Takashi a.k.a. Shooting Star) stands at the top of a building, observing every moment of what happened.

Shortly thereafter, Aphrodite vanishes, and Densuke re-appears and falls to the ground as Hibari quickly scoops him up.

The next few episodes focus on unlocking the Diva within the other PataPies. It shows how the three girls get along and form the Cyberteam in Akihabara, aimed at stopping masked women and their Homunculus from terrorising the city of Akihabara.

In subsequent episodes, Kamome and Tsubame are introduced. Washuu is revealed as the founder of a Celtic organization called Rosenkreuz (Rose Cross in German) and he himself is Christian Rosenkreuz, hiding under the name of Washuu Ryuugasaki to carry out his agenda. He once worked for the famous alchemist Paracelsus and collaborated with a French man, Cigogne Raspailles, and a young American man, Crane Bahnsteik to invent a device that can grant immortality (Divas). However, due to their secrecy, none of their inventions is revealed to the world. After Crane discovers that inventions made by the world lead to World Wars and the implications of Divas falling into the hands of warmongers, he ran off to space in his invented space rocket with all the plans on the immortality project.

The owner of the PataPi can fuse with the Diva to form a complete Diva. This is only possible for those who are the chosen Anima Mundi and possess a pure and undefiled heart. Towards the end of the series, only Hibari and Tsubame fuse with their Divas; Hibari beginning in episode 17 and Tsubame during episode 21. In the movie, all five of the girls fuse with their divas just prior to the film's climax in the Primum Mobile space fortress. The fact that Takashi is a clone of Crane, and used by Washu like a puppet to awaken the sleeping Divas in space (kept in Crane's space fortress the Primum Mobile), causes Takashi to rebel and find his identity in the world, with the three women Jun, Miyama and Hatoko joining him.

Towards the end of the series, Kamome's grandfather, Shimabukuro Sengakuji, reveals everything he knows about Rosenkreuz, the concept of Divas, which are artificial forms powered by neutrinos, and the principal Washu, who is the mastermind behind the events. Soon after, Washu discards his pseudo-identity, reverting to the original Christian Rosenkreuz, and changes the school into a large altar to welcome the descent of the Primum Mobile. He finds out that Crane was the one controlling the events that happened and dies soon after of old age due to rapid aging. Then Crane issues an ultimatum to Japan that he seeks the Anima Mundi and will threaten to destroy the country and the world if it is not met. Finally, at the end, the girls rebel and the Divas sacrifice themselves in place of the girls.

At the end of the series, it appears that Takashi survived. He is seen at the end of a speeding train with a small girl who looks exactly like Tsubame. She has a Pata Pi that looks exactly like Petite Ange. He cradles the child in his arms and says, "Come now, my Anima Mundi, we have work to do."

Cast and characters

 * Hibari Hanakoganei (花小金井 ひばり)
 * The protagonist. She is a typical girl who is not good in academics, but has a pure and trusting heart. Her Pata-Pi is Densuke (デンスケ), a simplistic winged one whose only word is "Pee!"; it transforms into the Diva Aphrodite. Hibari was Crane Bahnsteik's princess as Crane calls her as his Anima Mundi when he gives Densuke to her during their first meeting. Hibari's name means skylark and her surname is probably derived from the name of the Hanakoganei station in Tokyo. Her younger brother died during childbirth and his name was supposed to be Densuke, hence her great affection for her PataPi.
 * The protagonist. She is a typical girl who is not good in academics, but has a pure and trusting heart. Her Pata-Pi is Densuke (デンスケ), a simplistic winged one whose only word is "Pee!"; it transforms into the Diva Aphrodite. Hibari was Crane Bahnsteik's princess as Crane calls her as his Anima Mundi when he gives Densuke to her during their first meeting. Hibari's name means skylark and her surname is probably derived from the name of the Hanakoganei station in Tokyo. Her younger brother died during childbirth and his name was supposed to be Densuke, hence her great affection for her PataPi.

 * Suzume Sakurajosui (桜上水 すずめ)
 * Hibari's classmate who is her best friend. She is intelligent, mature, and even comes from a wealthy family. She's quite vain and stuck up and gets jealous of other girls with bigger breasts than hers, like Kamome. Her PataPi is Francesca (フランチェスカ Furanchesuka), one which is an equally intelligent multitasker whom Suzume improves to be "the best"; it transforms into the Diva Hestia. She has three elder sisters Suzumi, Suzuna and Suzuri. Suzume's name literally means sparrow.
 * Hibari's classmate who is her best friend. She is intelligent, mature, and even comes from a wealthy family. She's quite vain and stuck up and gets jealous of other girls with bigger breasts than hers, like Kamome. Her PataPi is Francesca (フランチェスカ Furanchesuka), one which is an equally intelligent multitasker whom Suzume improves to be "the best"; it transforms into the Diva Hestia. She has three elder sisters Suzumi, Suzuna and Suzuri. Suzume's name literally means sparrow.

 * Tsugumi Higashijujo (東十条 つぐみ)
 * A girl who always fights and argues with Suzume a lot. She has an aggressive attitude, as she has a mixed martial arts and professional wrestling background. But she aspires to be a singing star, just like her idol, Hatoko Daikan'yama. Her Pata-Pi is Tetsuro (テツロー Tetsurō) or Tetsu for short, an equally aggressive one who has built-in microphones, whenever she has the urge to sing, and a camera; it transforms into the Diva Athena. Tsugumi's name literally means thrush.
 * A girl who always fights and argues with Suzume a lot. She has an aggressive attitude, as she has a mixed martial arts and professional wrestling background. But she aspires to be a singing star, just like her idol, Hatoko Daikan'yama. Her Pata-Pi is Tetsuro (テツロー Tetsurō) or Tetsu for short, an equally aggressive one who has built-in microphones, whenever she has the urge to sing, and a camera; it transforms into the Diva Athena. Tsugumi's name literally means thrush.

 * Kamome Sengakuji (泉岳寺 かもめ)
 * A girl from Osaka who aspires for money and would do anything for it. She likes to pad her bra to look busty, and wears inflatable bras. Her Pata-Pi is Billiken (ビリケン Biriken), one which is basically a futuristic version of a piggy bank and counting machine; it transforms into the Diva Amphitrite. She lives with her mother and stepfather in Osaka after her biological father died. In the movie, Kamome's role is significantly reduced. Kamome's name literally means sea gull.
 * A girl from Osaka who aspires for money and would do anything for it. She likes to pad her bra to look busty, and wears inflatable bras. Her Pata-Pi is Billiken (ビリケン Biriken), one which is basically a futuristic version of a piggy bank and counting machine; it transforms into the Diva Amphitrite. She lives with her mother and stepfather in Osaka after her biological father died. In the movie, Kamome's role is significantly reduced. Kamome's name literally means sea gull.

 * Tsubame Otori (大鳥居 つばめ)
 * A mostly stoic girl with a very distorted view on friendship and no concept of family. Brought up by Cigogne as a special catalyst for the return of the Primum Mobile, she is isolated from society all this while. Hibari befriends her and will eventually break Tsubame's apparent evilness at the end of episode 20. The closing of episode 20 shows that Tsubame is adopted by Hibari's parents as the credits roll over artwork depicting Hinako (Hibari's Mother) in bed caressing Hibari on one side and Tsubame on the other. Her Pata-Pi is Petit-Ange (プティアンジュ Puti-Anju also French for "Little Angel), one which is basically dumb; it transforms into the Diva Erinyes. Tsubame's name literally means barn swallow.
 * A mostly stoic girl with a very distorted view on friendship and no concept of family. Brought up by Cigogne as a special catalyst for the return of the Primum Mobile, she is isolated from society all this while. Hibari befriends her and will eventually break Tsubame's apparent evilness at the end of episode 20. The closing of episode 20 shows that Tsubame is adopted by Hibari's parents as the credits roll over artwork depicting Hinako (Hibari's Mother) in bed caressing Hibari on one side and Tsubame on the other. Her Pata-Pi is Petit-Ange (プティアンジュ Puti-Anju also French for "Little Angel), one which is basically dumb; it transforms into the Diva Erinyes. Tsubame's name literally means barn swallow.

 * Shimabukuro Sengakuji (泉岳寺 シマ福郎)
 * Kamome's grandfather. Kamome generally learns anything about Pata-Pis from him as he was once a part of Rosenkreuz's secret scientists' society. He is a perverted voyer with a penchant for peeking up girls' skirts and in one episode, attempting to spy on them in the beach changing room. Nonetheless he vigilantly watches out for the girls from afar and genuinely seeks to protect them.
 * Kamome's grandfather. Kamome generally learns anything about Pata-Pis from him as he was once a part of Rosenkreuz's secret scientists' society. He is a perverted voyer with a penchant for peeking up girls' skirts and in one episode, attempting to spy on them in the beach changing room. Nonetheless he vigilantly watches out for the girls from afar and genuinely seeks to protect them.

 * Uzura Kitaurawa (北浦和 うずら)
 * A lesbian who admires fellow girls for various reasons. She is madly in love with Hibari for her "slender body." She later falls for Kamome due to her "bust size"(or lack thereof). She has a Pata-Pi named Enoken (エノケン), a dog-like one which can only grow its ears. Uzura's name literally means quail. In the Movie Uzura is featured more prominently.
 * A lesbian who admires fellow girls for various reasons. She is madly in love with Hibari for her "slender body." She later falls for Kamome due to her "bust size"(or lack thereof). She has a Pata-Pi named Enoken (エノケン), a dog-like one which can only grow its ears. Uzura's name literally means quail. In the Movie Uzura is featured more prominently.

 * Jun Goutokuji (豪徳寺じゅん)
 * An office lady. She passionately longs for the so-called "Black Prince Shooting Star" and goes out to steal the specially designed PataPis to please him. She calls herself Bloody Falcon when in battle. Cerberus is Jun's personal Avatar and her apostolus is Astaroth.
 * An office lady. She passionately longs for the so-called "Black Prince Shooting Star" and goes out to steal the specially designed PataPis to please him. She calls herself Bloody Falcon when in battle. Cerberus is Jun's personal Avatar and her apostolus is Astaroth.

 * Miyama Soshigaya (祖師谷 みやま)
 * A bookish geeky student. She passionately longs for the so-called "Black Prince Shooting Star" and goes out to steal the specially designed PataPis to please him. She calls herself Death Crow when in battle. Skeleton is Miyama's personal Avatar and her apostolus is Asmodeus.
 * A bookish geeky student. She passionately longs for the so-called "Black Prince Shooting Star" and goes out to steal the specially designed PataPis to please him. She calls herself Death Crow when in battle. Skeleton is Miyama's personal Avatar and her apostolus is Asmodeus.

 * Hatoko Daikanyama (代官山 はとこ)
 * A marginally talented singing idol. She passionately longs for the so-called "Black Prince Shooting Star" and goes out to steal the specially designed PataPis to please him. She calls herself Dark Pigeon when in battle. Cockatrice is Hatoko's personal Avatar and her apostolus is Beelzebub. In Episode 23, Hatoko also reveals her real identity to the girls when she sings her famous song much to Tsugumi's horrible shock after knowing that her idol Hatoko and Dark Pigeon are the same person.
 * A marginally talented singing idol. She passionately longs for the so-called "Black Prince Shooting Star" and goes out to steal the specially designed PataPis to please him. She calls herself Dark Pigeon when in battle. Cockatrice is Hatoko's personal Avatar and her apostolus is Beelzebub. In Episode 23, Hatoko also reveals her real identity to the girls when she sings her famous song much to Tsugumi's horrible shock after knowing that her idol Hatoko and Dark Pigeon are the same person.

 * Crane Bahnsteik (クレイン・バーンシュタイク), also known as The White Prince
 * Crane is a mysterious youth who gives Densuke to Hibari whom she calls him as her prince. In reality, he is a scientist who thinks ahead of his own time and even defies age (he was born in 1884). He conceptualized and invented the airplane and the rocket ship as a means of space travel even before they were invented in our reality. He once allied himself with Rosenkreuz's secret society and even created a computer with him called Metatron to contact the Anima Mundi. But he broke away when he found out that Rosenkreuz wanted to use Metatron for his own purposes. He currently resides with Metatron inside Primum Mobile, a satellite that has been orbiting Earth even before Sputnik I, living in suspended animation and sending "messages" to people through their dreams. In some episodes, Crane comforts Hibari when she was taunted by her enemies and giving advice to her. But in Episode 24 until the finale, he was revealed to be responsible of awakening the Divas instead of Christian's which leads the former to die of old age due to rapid aging and later attacking the girls when they finally rebel against him only to be surprised when he discover the three Divas that he commanded have human emotions and all the five Divas sacrifice themselves in place of the girls. In the end, he returns the Pata-Pis back to their owners after he thanked Hibari for letting him made love in humanity once more. In the movie, Crane became the main catalyst due to the disturbance in his deep sleep caused by the computers controlled within the Primum Mobile.
 * Crane is a mysterious youth who gives Densuke to Hibari whom she calls him as her prince. In reality, he is a scientist who thinks ahead of his own time and even defies age (he was born in 1884). He conceptualized and invented the airplane and the rocket ship as a means of space travel even before they were invented in our reality. He once allied himself with Rosenkreuz's secret society and even created a computer with him called Metatron to contact the Anima Mundi. But he broke away when he found out that Rosenkreuz wanted to use Metatron for his own purposes. He currently resides with Metatron inside Primum Mobile, a satellite that has been orbiting Earth even before Sputnik I, living in suspended animation and sending "messages" to people through their dreams. In some episodes, Crane comforts Hibari when she was taunted by her enemies and giving advice to her. But in Episode 24 until the finale, he was revealed to be responsible of awakening the Divas instead of Christian's which leads the former to die of old age due to rapid aging and later attacking the girls when they finally rebel against him only to be surprised when he discover the three Divas that he commanded have human emotions and all the five Divas sacrifice themselves in place of the girls. In the end, he returns the Pata-Pis back to their owners after he thanked Hibari for letting him made love in humanity once more. In the movie, Crane became the main catalyst due to the disturbance in his deep sleep caused by the computers controlled within the Primum Mobile.

 * Washu Ryugasaki (竜ヶ崎 鷲羽)
 * Washu is the shady and mysterious principal who seems to watch over the girls and their Pata-Pis and knows everything about them. Later on, he reveals himself as Christian Rosenkreuz. In Episode 24, Christian dies of old age due to rapid aging while confronting Crane inside Primum Mobile and their confrontation are witnessed by Hibari. Wasshu's name literally means eagle.
 * Washu is the shady and mysterious principal who seems to watch over the girls and their Pata-Pis and knows everything about them. Later on, he reveals himself as Christian Rosenkreuz. In Episode 24, Christian dies of old age due to rapid aging while confronting Crane inside Primum Mobile and their confrontation are witnessed by Hibari. Wasshu's name literally means eagle.

 * Takashi Ryugasaki (竜ヶ崎 鷹士), also known as The Black Prince and Shooting Star
 * Washu's "son" who turns out to be a clone of Crane. He has a resemblance to him and is admired by Jun, Miyama, and Hatoko to the point that he manipulates their emotions. Jun has a crush on him. Cyclops is Takashi's personal Avatar and his Apostolus is Lucifer. In the end of the anime, Takashi is revealed to be survived and he started to manipulate the girl who calls her his Anima Mundi. Takashi's name literally means hawk.
 * Washu's "son" who turns out to be a clone of Crane. He has a resemblance to him and is admired by Jun, Miyama, and Hatoko to the point that he manipulates their emotions. Jun has a crush on him. Cyclops is Takashi's personal Avatar and his Apostolus is Lucifer. In the end of the anime, Takashi is revealed to be survived and he started to manipulate the girl who calls her his Anima Mundi. Takashi's name literally means hawk.

 * Cigogne Raspailles (シゴーニュ・ラスパイユ)
 * Voiced by: Takurou Kitagawa (Japanese); John Kaiser (English)
 * An old acquaintance of Rosenkreuz who also knows anything about the Anima Mundi. He acts as Tsubame's "father" who brings her to Tokyo. He was known as Count Saint Germain back in the 17th century when he was serving in the French Royal Palace. In Episode 24, he was thrown a card by Christian Rosenkreuz to turn him into a grotresque Apostolus only to be defeated by Hibari as Aphrodite. In Episode 25 after the death of his old partner Christian, Cigogne leaves back to France while walking in a cane.

 * Hisho (秘書)
 * Hisho is the secretary to Washu Ryuugasaki. She is fanatically loyal to him and would die for him. She gets the chance to fight the girls by donning a Diva suit made by Washu and commands the Diva army. But in Episode 24, Hisho senses her master was fallen and decides to join him by letting Tsubame as Erinyes slashed her from one of her pink blades as she fell into the edge in explosion as Tsubame witnessed her suicidal actions.
 * Hisho is the secretary to Washu Ryuugasaki. She is fanatically loyal to him and would die for him. She gets the chance to fight the girls by donning a Diva suit made by Washu and commands the Diva army. But in Episode 24, Hisho senses her master was fallen and decides to join him by letting Tsubame as Erinyes slashed her from one of her pink blades as she fell into the edge in explosion as Tsubame witnessed her suicidal actions.

PataPi
Cute cybernetic toys that are a hit in Japan among schoolgirls, PataPies are miniature robots that can be upgraded by purchasing better components and equipping it with special devices, like the Kame Hame Maki that can tell fortunes from horoscopes. Developed and propagated by Washu, the sole purpose of PataPies is to stimulate brain waves in girls so that they can synchronise with the Divas in the Primum Mobile, but the creator of the PataPi is Crane himself. Six PataPies are featured in the series:

 * Densuke
 * A PataPi that is given to Hibari by Crane himself, Densuke (nicknamed Denny) is a very ordinary PataPi whose sole purpose is to learn new things and entertain his companion. Actually, Densuke is more sensitive than the other PataPies, being able to detect Erinyes' descent and other things, making it a special PataPi. Densuke can also fly, but not for long.
 * A PataPi that is given to Hibari by Crane himself, Densuke (nicknamed Denny) is a very ordinary PataPi whose sole purpose is to learn new things and entertain his companion. Actually, Densuke is more sensitive than the other PataPies, being able to detect Erinyes' descent and other things, making it a special PataPi. Densuke can also fly, but not for long.

 * Francesca
 * Full name being Francesca Leopard Classic Renoir Sanhasha the Third Junior (though nicknamed Franny), Francesca is Suzume's favourite PataPi that is equipped with all the latest components available in the market. The remarkable components include a missile turret on the back that can shoot out a flurry of mini-missiles that actually explode on impact! Francesca also has a parachute and a built-in calculator.
 * Full name being Francesca Leopard Classic Renoir Sanhasha the Third Junior (though nicknamed Franny), Francesca is Suzume's favourite PataPi that is equipped with all the latest components available in the market. The remarkable components include a missile turret on the back that can shoot out a flurry of mini-missiles that actually explode on impact! Francesca also has a parachute and a built-in calculator.

 * Tetsuro
 * Tetsuro (nicknamed Tetsu) is Tsugumi's martial arts PataPi. He is a powerful PataPi with considerable strength and agility. Well-versed in punches and kicks (probably picked up during Tsugumi's martial arts lessons in her dojo), Tetsurō is the bodyguard of the PataPi Five. It also has built-in dual microphones and Tsugumi uses them when she starts singing songs of her idol Hatoko.
 * Tetsuro (nicknamed Tetsu) is Tsugumi's martial arts PataPi. He is a powerful PataPi with considerable strength and agility. Well-versed in punches and kicks (probably picked up during Tsugumi's martial arts lessons in her dojo), Tetsurō is the bodyguard of the PataPi Five. It also has built-in dual microphones and Tsugumi uses them when she starts singing songs of her idol Hatoko.

 * Billiken
 * Named after the goddess of fortune in Osaka, Billiken is an electronic piggy bank and calculator, mainly for finance. Kamome raised Billiken up such that she inherited her stingy and calculative personality. Billiken is a good salesperson, being able to sell takoyaki proficiently in the movie.
 * Named after the goddess of fortune in Osaka, Billiken is an electronic piggy bank and calculator, mainly for finance. Kamome raised Billiken up such that she inherited her stingy and calculative personality. Billiken is a good salesperson, being able to sell takoyaki proficiently in the movie.

 * Petit-Ange
 * Meaning Little Angel, Petit-Ange is an exotic PataPi that is dark red in color and has two wings. As Tsubame's playmate and companion, Petit-Ange is fanatically loyal to her and would protect her in times of danger. Petit-Ange can be a very cute PataPi when she starts sucking heads, or a very violent PataPi, like in episode 13 when she performed an uppercut on the PataPi Kero with her wing.
 * Meaning Little Angel, Petit-Ange is an exotic PataPi that is dark red in color and has two wings. As Tsubame's playmate and companion, Petit-Ange is fanatically loyal to her and would protect her in times of danger. Petit-Ange can be a very cute PataPi when she starts sucking heads, or a very violent PataPi, like in episode 13 when she performed an uppercut on the PataPi Kero with her wing.

 * Enoken
 * Enoken is Uzura's PataPi, who looks like a dog with two long flabby ears that can extend to form even longer ears like a rabbit. The scary thing about Enoken is that he appears in weird and unlikely situations and whenever there's Enoken, Uzura may be hiding somewhere nearby. Enoken massages people with his ears. Enoken is named after the famous Japanese comedian Kenichi Enomoto; Enoken was actually his stage name.
 * Enoken is Uzura's PataPi, who looks like a dog with two long flabby ears that can extend to form even longer ears like a rabbit. The scary thing about Enoken is that he appears in weird and unlikely situations and whenever there's Enoken, Uzura may be hiding somewhere nearby. Enoken massages people with his ears. Enoken is named after the famous Japanese comedian Kenichi Enomoto; Enoken was actually his stage name.

Songs

 * Opening
 * Birth
 * Lyricist: Masami Okui / Composer: Masami Okui and Toshirō Yabuki / Arranger: Toshirō Yabuki / Singer: Masami Okui

 * Ending
 * Flower of Sun (太陽の花)
 * Lyricist: Masami Okui / Composer: Masami Okui / Arranger: Toshirō Yabuki / Singer: Masami Okui
 * Episodes: 1-19, 21-25
 * Cynthia - People Who Love (シンシア・愛する人)
 * Lyricist: Ritsuko Okazaki / Composer: Ritsuko Okazaki / Arranger: Shinkichi Mitsumune / Singer: Ritsuko Okazaki
 * Episodes: 20

 * Insert
 * Red (朱)
 * Lyricist: Masami Okui / Composer: Masami Okui / Arranger: Toshirō Yabuki / Singer: Masami Okui
 * Episodes: 12, 21
 * Lets Love, Lets Stick (恋しましょ、 ねばりましょ)
 * Lyricist: Masami Okui / Composer: Masami Okui / Arranger: Toshirō Yabuki / Singer: Yumi Kakazu
 * Cynthia - People Who Love (シンシア・愛する人)
 * Lyricist: Ritsuko Okazaki / Composer: Ritsuko Okazaki / Arranger: Shinkichi Mitsumune / Singer: Ritsuko Okazaki
 * Episodes: 11
 * Baby Maybe Love
 * Lyricist: Yuki Matsura / Composer: Yuki Matsura / Arranger: Yuki Matsura / Singer: Ryōka Shima, Kozue Yoshizumi and Yū Asakawa
 * Episodes: 16
 * We Salute You
 * Lyricist: Mamie D.Lee / Composer: Shinkichi Mitsumune / Arranger: Shinkichi Mitsumune / Singer: Yurie Kokubo
 * Episodes: 18

Reception
THEM anime gave the series three stars out of five. Carlo Santos of Anime News Network gave the first ADV Films DVD volume a D for the original voice acting and art, an F for the English dub voice acting, animation and story and a C− for the music.

title: Cyber Team in Akihabara


text:
User talk:Johntinker

Welcome
Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~ ~ ~. Four tildes (~ ~ ) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!
 * How to edit a page; Editing tutorial; Picture tutorial
 * How to write a great article; Naming conventions; Manual of Style

Whosyourjudas (talk) 02:18, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Replied on my talk page. —No-One Jones (m) 19:16, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

August 2015
Thank you for your contributions. Please mark your edits, such as your recent edits to Eliot Higgins, as "minor" only if they are minor edits. In accordance with Help:Minor edit, a minor edit is one that the editor believes requires no review and could never be the subject of a dispute. Minor edits consist of things such as typographical corrections, formatting changes or rearrangement of text without modification of content. Additionally, the reversion of clear-cut vandalism and test edits may be labeled "minor". Thank you. VQuakr (talk) 21:21, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Johntinker


text:
Talk:Sandro Botticelli

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 September 2018 and 6 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): B am 240.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 08:39, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

pederasty
The section on Pederasty is troubling because it suggests hat pederasty and homosexuality are the same thing. Needs some rewriting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.161.175.210 (talk) 19:46, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

nationality
I was once told that Botticelli rejected the label "Italian", and fought a duel over it. Whether that's true or not, "Nationality: Italian" in the infobox is questionable for the time. —Tamfang (talk) 19:53, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * No that's the way we do it. Strangely it's always Italians people complain about, never Germans. Go figure. Johnbod (talk) 22:13, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps because there was a tenuous entity that included most Germans. —Tamfang (talk) 04:40, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Fully argee with Tamfang. Mootros (talk) 20:10, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with Johnbod...Modernist (talk) 20:18, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see the consensus that Mootros refers to. Isn't the ascription of nationality based on a longstanding acceptance in art historical writings....not to mention every library I've ever been in? JNW (talk) 20:30, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The longstanding acceptance is towards ethic and cultural origins, hence we have a Dutch school. I cannot see that is has been extended to the idea of nationality. Perhaps we are discovering that particularly art historians have been operating rather ahistorical. Mootros (talk) 20:37, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Without seeking to discount the thought you propose, or argue re: the chronology of the founding of a nation, the issue might be whether or not it constitutes original research. If the bulk of published scholarship continues to refer to nationality, then that's what the encyclopedia uses. JNW (talk) 20:50, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, absolutely, but do they really say this, that's what I wonder. "Nationality"... most don't, I guess. I leave this as thought for food for you art historians. However, I cannot see any credible mainstream historian, or any current mainstream historiographer making such assertion. Mootros (talk) 20:58, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

(unindent) Try the Metropolitan Museum of Art: "The name and nationality of the maker(s) of the object are given, if known." In the case of Botticelli it is "Italian, Florentine". We follow reliable sources, not the opinions of editors.  Ty  02:15, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It looks more like an opinion to me, the way you interpret a library/ museums classification term in the info box. If you want to follow the source, the info box should state "library/ museums classification's nationality" Most info boxes use the term nationality in a completely different way. What is to be gained by introducing this historical inaccuracy? Lets move the discussion over here, where this is already discussed: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Visual_arts Thank you. Mootros (talk) 06:37, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Born in Italy?
I don't think there was any Italy when Botticelli was born. Italy was founded at the end of the 19th century. Why such inaccuracy? Mootros (talk) 20:42, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 * See my post after (unindent) in the preceding section.  Ty  02:16, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Where does it say born in Italy. Mootros (talk) 06:39, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The infobox has a separate entry for where he was born, so that is not at issue.  Ty  13:56, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The issue is he was not born in Italy, as this box claims. Mootros (talk) 13:33, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think reverting and counter-reverting within individual articles--Botticelli and Rembrandt-- is the way to resolve this. It ends up being a battle of wills and leads to edit warring, perhaps the least preferable mode. If there is to be a discussion, the place to continue it is at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts, and bring sources rather than original research. Mootros, I comprehend your point, but you are acting unilaterally, and thus far you don't appear to be interested in consensus. JNW (talk) 21:13, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes you are right it should be discussed at WikiProject Visual arts. To be honest, I am in shock and disbelief that a GA article like Rembrandt is passed with such mistakes (stating born in the Netherlands, not even something "what is nowadays called NL") and when one corrects this, it is instantly reverted. I am not interested in editwarring but currently I am rather shocked. Attitudes by other editors as shown on this page with statements "No that's the way we do it" are  not particularly inviting. Mootros (talk) 23:42, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

I have move the discussion over here: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Visual_arts Please do respond over there instead. Thank you. Mootros (talk) 00:04, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Revert of WP:IMGSIZE compliance edit
Re:

First, I'm curious about something. While I happened to return to this article out of random chance and nothing better to do right now, I generally wouldn't in a case like this. How much effort is required to perform a revert like that, with changes in five separate locations within the article, without generating a notification of the editor you're reverting? As compared to the couple of clicks required for an "undo"? Why would one go to that extra effort unless it's in the hopes that the reverted editor will be unaware of the revert, thereby saving you the trouble of having to defend your revert? Is that entirely ethical in your opinion? Is avoidance of discussion the best thing for the encyclopedia?

And could you explain the "very good reason" why the user size preference shouldn't work at this article? ― Mandruss  ☎  23:46, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
 * How much effort? Rather less than an undo, which I think takes at least one extra click, plus a little wait. That's why I hardly ever do them. I'm unaware exactly how the notifications work - I always seem to get notified when I'm reverted, but very rarely see "undo" notifications". As to the good reasons, when upright sizes over 1.5 are used the effects for those with preferences set high are too extreme. Plus, when WP comes to its senses & increases the ludicrously small default size, the images will be really rather too large for even more people. Hope that helps. Johnbod (talk) 21:26, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Ok, so you reject the community consensus. Thanks for clarifying. I strongly disagree with that approach, but I won't press the issue here. ― Mandruss  ☎  22:56, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I see there is a Preferences thing for revert notifications, but not for undos. Perhaps your settings need look at. Johnbod (talk) 22:31, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * The Preferences thing for revert notifications applies to reverts by undo, reverts by rollback, reverts by Twinkle, etc. It has been my understanding that it should apply to all reverts except reverts by editing; it would be impractical to try to make the software intelligent enough to recognize those reverts. It was my impression that your revert was a revert by editing; if not, I'd be very interested to know what kind it was. ― Mandruss  ☎  22:56, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * It was a revert by doing a null edit on the version before yours. Johnbod (talk) 03:05, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I've never heard of an editor using that technique, but whatever. Be aware that it's essentially a revert by editing, so it does not generate a notification. I think an editor deserves to know when they are reverted, and it's not reasonable to ask them to monitor page histories indefinitely. ― Mandruss  ☎  04:30, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm tempted to say - "why not, I do". I can recommend the method, which I find much easier than undoing. Of course one has to pick through partial reverts. I think, by the way, it is very commonly used. Johnbod (talk) 11:52, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm with Johnbod on this one, especially wrt "pointless". Sigh. The version Mandruss is reverted to is, aesthetically *headache*. Ceoil  (talk) 23:36, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Citation help needed please?
At Aesthetic canon, this uncited statement is made: "For his painting The Birth of Venus, the artist Sandro Botticelli stated that the distance between the nipple and navel, between the two legs and between the navel and the groin must all be equal for a figure to (in his opinion) be ideally proportioned."

I am revising Body proportions and would like to use this statement (if true) but not without a citation. Can anyone supply? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 19:56, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Unknown to me, after doing a lot of research for his biography. SB himself has virtually no recorded statements; almost everything he allegedly said was recorded by Vasari several decades later. what does "between the two legs" mean anyway? I'd happily cut; indeed the whole article could well be merged to other places. Johnbod (talk) 00:09, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

"Linear grace"
I found this sentence to be pretty difficult to understand:
 * His paintings have been seen to represent the linear grace of Early Renaissance painting.

Since the body of the article states "Their beauty was characterized by Vasari as exemplifying grace and by John Ruskin as possessing linear rhythm", perhaps it would be more clear to say:
 * His paintings have been seen to represent the graceful linear style of Early Renaissance painting.

--157.157.113.43 (talk) 13:32, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Version of English?
At present the articles uses 'neighborhood" and "color", and also "neighbourhood" and "colour" etc, and it doesn't have a template stating which version if English it uses. The inconsistency was pointed out by someone playing Redactle, as it's today's target article. It looks to me as if British English is more widely used but I'm on phone and can't easily check. Pam  D  20:45, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The topic has no strong MOS:TIES to any national version of English, so we would MOS:RETAIN whatever version the article used originally. Or if there is no disagreement simply choose the one that is most prominent and make it consistent because that would be the least amount of work. --  Green  C  21:09, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

 * Of course the article uses BrEng, but you know what these Americans are like. In fact there were eg 7 colours vs 2 colors & so on. Please say/correct anything else, & add a template if you know how to. Johnbod (talk) 21:22, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I've added the template, thanks for tweaking the spellings. Did you mean to remove a paragraph, while doing so? You didn't explain in your edit summary. Pam  D  07:04, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, sorry. It was a poor recent addition, in the wrong place, and with a remarkably large number of mistakes. The Tornabuoni frescos were already mentioned. Our long, if poor, Madonna of the Pomegranate doesn't mention the family at all.  Johnbod (talk) 17:10, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

"...the manuscript Dante"
In the later years section; it's footnoted, but unclear. Drawings for the manuscript of Dante's Divine Comedy perhaps? I hope someone who knows the source will clarify. Deliusfan (talk) 16:51, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Try reading the "Dante, printing and manuscripts" section above this! Johnbod (talk) 17:06, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Sandro Botticelli


text:
The Distillers (album)

The Distillers is the debut album by the American punk rock band the Distillers, released in 2000.

Critical reception
The Reno Gazette-Journal wrote that "Brody Armstrong delivers profane, out-of-control vocals as if she's scratching the eyes out of a lover in a bar's back alley."

Track listing
All tracks written by Brody Dalle except where noted.
 * 1) "Oh Serena" – 2:32
 * 2) "Idoless" – 2:28
 * 3) "The World Comes Tumblin'" – 3:08
 * 4) "L.A. Girl" – 2:59
 * 5) "Distilla Truant" – 2:24
 * 6) "Ask the Angels" (Ivan Kral, Patti Smith) – 3:10
 * 7) "Oldscratch" – 0:43
 * 8) "Girlfixer" (Dalle, Kim Fuellman) – 1:14
 * 9) "Open Sky" – 3:07
 * 10) "Red Carpet and Rebellion" – 3:08
 * 11) "Colossus U.S.A." – 2:15
 * 12) "Blackheart" – 1:45
 * 13) "Gypsy Rose Lee" – 3:54
 * 14) "The Blackest Years" – 7:28

Notes
 * After the final track, "The Blackest Years", there is a hidden track. It is an early version of "Young Girls" which appears on the next album, Sing Sing Death House. But this version contains different lyrics and is performed by Brody Dalle solo on electric guitar.
 * "The World Comes Tumblin'" has been covered by the Wildhearts on their album of covers, Stop Us If You've Heard This One Before, Vol 1.

Personnel
The Distillers
 * Brody Dalle – vocals, guitar
 * Kim "Chi" Fuellman – bass, vocals
 * Rose Casper – guitar
 * Matt Young – drums

Additional musician
 * Ronnie King – piano on "Ask the Angels"

Production
 * Producer: Thomas "TJ" Johnson – producer, engineer, mixing
 * Donnell Cameron – assistant engineer
 * Jay Gordon – assistant engineer
 * Gene Grimaldi – mastering
 * Mike "Sak" Fasano – drum technician
 * Jesse Fischer – art direction
 * Brody Dalle – art direction
 * B.J. Papas – photography

title: The Distillers (album)


text:
Kottige

Kottige (also known as Megala Kottige) is a small village in the Holalkere town of Chitradurga State in Karnataka, India.

Regional
The total population of Kottige is less than 100. The village is bordered by Kabbala, Kelagina Kottige, Ugane Katte and Vaddara Hatti.

Tourism
The village is famous for nearby Huli Katte (Tigers used to visit this pool regularly, hence the name 'Huli'), for its wildlife and the nearby picturesque hills. Hyenas and Wild Bears and wild boars frequently visit the village and nearby farms, in late evenings and nights. Untouched by the hands of human, the neighbouring hills provide a thrilling vista to the untamed beautiful fauna and flora of the Deccan Karnataka.

Visitors also flock the age old, Maari Gudi (Maari Shrine), which hosts Goddess Maari (of Maari Kanive) and attain the blessings of the Devi. During the village festival (Jaatre) held once in 12 years, Swaamana Kunita (Dance of 'Swama') provide a mindblowing perspective into the traditions and culture of ancient Dravidian Karnataka.

There is no bus route available into the village and the tourists have to get down at Ugane Katte Bus Stop or NG Halli Bus Stop between Hosadurga - Holalkere road and walk 4 miles through a dense irrigated area and coconut farms to reach the village.

title: Kottige


text: Talk:The Distillers (album)

title: Talk:The Distillers (album)


text:
Esthesic and poietic

Esthesic (UK aesthesic) and poietic are terms used in semiotics, the study of signs, to describe perceptive and productive levels, processes, and analyses of symbolic forms. The corresponding terms for the processes are esthesis and poiesis.

Like 'emic' and 'etic', both words appear to be derived from a suffix, -poietic (from ποιητικός "creative") meaning productive or formative and -esthesic (from αἴσθησις "sense") being receptive or perceptive, in relation to the neutral level. The neutral level is the "trace" left behind, the physical or material creation of esthesic and poietic processes.

Thus, "a symbolic form... is not some 'intermediary' in a process of 'communication' that transmits the meaning intended by the author to the audience; it is instead the result of a complex process of creation (the poietic process) that has to do with the form as well as the content of the work; it is also the point of departure for a complex process of reception (the esthesic process) that reconstructs a 'message.'" (Nattiez 1990, p. 17)

Nattiez's diagram, following Jean Molino:
 * (ibid.)

"Esthesic" also refers to the mental perception of any body part. "-poesis"/"-poetics" also refers to production.

title: Esthesic and poietic


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title: Category:Sullivan County, New York


text: User talk:69.177.45.26

title: User talk:69.177.45.26


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User talk:The Archivist

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title: User talk:The Archivist