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Talk:List of irregularly spelled English names

Newquay
The pronunciation of "Newquay" is not really counter-intuitive, given that it is pronounced identically to "new quay". Granted, the pronunciation of the common noun "quay" is counter-intuitive, so maybe that's why "Newquay" gets on this list. — 217.46.147.13 (talk) 14:54, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Quay == Key is standard English (en_gb). I have tried to think of a counter example but can't. Another example: Torquay -> Taw Key. I know of a Canadian Norquay -> Nor Kway.

I would say that quay == key is standard en_gb. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gerdesj (talk • contribs) 01:20, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Some possibilities
Beaconsfield, Buckinghamshire, UK - pronounced Bekkonsfield. Jdudmesh (talk) 20:37, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

La Jolla, California and Van Nuys, California  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.112.31.130 (talk) 19:01, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't write in phoenetic!

Somerset - English county - minor detail but it's Summer Set in pronunciation Hatch Beauchamp - a village in South Somerset, England : Hatch Beech-um Worchestershire - English county: Woosta-Sher (the woo as in wood) Worchester - city in Worcestershire (NB - Worcester, Worcestershire - no "ch" in either case) Captain Pedant (talk) 08:04, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Gerdesj (talk) 01:48, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Milngavie in Glasgow? (Mill-guy)85.158.139.100 (talk) 14:23, 25 February 2010 (UTC) Lance Tyrell

The US list is missing "Skaneateles, New York", which is pronounced "skinny atlas." 209.117.47.253 (talk) 11:08, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Garboldisham, Norfolk is pronounced "GARbulshum" by the locals Captain Pedant (talk) 08:04, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

What about Lake Orion, MI? You'd think it'd be pronounced correctly like the constellation (or-AYE-un), but locals pronounce it OR-ee-on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.179.233.246 (talk) 09:14, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

How about Wimbledon, which is not pronounced Wim - blə - don but Wim - bul - don? Vburmester (talk) 10:12, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
 * But like thimble, rumble, spindle, fondle, handle, etc... --  Dr Greg   talk  20:12, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but it is still counterintuitive because it does not adhere to the rules of pronunciation Vburmester (talk) 21:56, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Alas, no-one has bothered to answer that. The rule is not well taught, but there, it is that if you have in this order: n/m, a consonant, le then it is generally  in the same was as double t.  Also bear in mind these rules are after the event not prescribed by someone, the language evolved itself to sound nice/fierce or whatever else. Adam37 (talk) 11:23, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Gaelic and Irish
No offense, but don't most place names derived from Gaelic (Irish or Scottish) defy the normal "rules" of English pronunciation? That potentially makes for a very long list. Wouldn't it make more sense to mention a few and beyond that exclude Gaelic/Irish derived names? Akerbeltz (talk) 23:18, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It depends on how anglicized the spellings are, I think. I'd say "Donegal" and "Lewis" and "Mayo" and "Glasgow" have intuitive enough pronunciations, but "Dún Laoghaire" and "Beinn Bhreagh" probably don't. On the other hand, this is a "List of names in English with counterintuitive pronunciations", and people might not consider Dún Laoghaire and Beinn Bhreagh to be names in English. +Angr 10:38, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
 * English is a mongrel language with global scope. Even if the list were confined to placenames in England, we'd still be dealing with names that have their roots in other languages like Danish, Cornish &c.  Choosing between these is a matter of personal opinion and so violates our core principles of WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. Colonel Warden (talk) 07:11, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Redirect
This page has been linked to from Reference desk/Language. If the move to Wiktionary goes ahead, please redirect this page to the new page in Wiktionary. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:40, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

"Copy to wiktionary" tag
The transwiki option was rejected in the most recent AfD, but the warning tag remains at the top of the page. Is it still valid? --Old Moonraker (talk) 13:49, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Dialect vs local pronunciation
I'm aware that the wikipedia policy is to use very broad transcription that might be read in any dialect, however I do not think that policy is appropriate here for place names. It seems to me that the base logic of this article is to show local pronunciations. Therefore, a transcription which is somewhat closer to its actual pronunciation by locals (including dialectical variation) would make much more sense. 60.240.207.146 (talk) 23:03, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

 * Well, mostly what people are interested in is how they should pronounce a name, which means the broad transcription. The point is not to indicate that the local pronunciation is counterintuitive, say because they speak a bizarre dialect, but that the pronunciation is counterintuitive period, whoever says it. It might also be hard to document a lot of these. But sure, a second transcription with local pronunciation might be nice; though given how unstable this article tends to be, that effort might be better expended on the individual articles, which an interested reader can always consult. — kwami (talk) 23:17, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

 * My point is that a broad transcription might not be rendered as counter-intuitive where the counter-intuitiveness of the pronunciation is primarily (or in large part) affected by local factors. Eg, the pronunciation of Melbourne in Australian English is regular according to the rules of Australian English, but rather irregular by the rules of American English. So here, a broad transcription does not render the relevant differences that give rise to 'counter-intuitive'. Although, I acknowledge that Melbourne is not in the same class as Worcestershire. 60.240.207.146 (talk)

Places in Maine
I know there has to be a lot of places from Maine belonging on this page, I'm just not sure how to go about writing the pronunciation. for example,one of the biggest cities- Bangor is bang-gore, not bang-er. There are countless Native American names which could go on this page. the difference between writing and pronunciation here has resulted in many nightmares for tourists looking for directions. just informing whoever has the resources that there are many towns and rivers etc in Maine that can be added to this list.

I'll be the first to say I didn't do well in english, so i'm not sure if the following are mispronunciations due to how it's written or tourists just not reading it right, but i've heard the following mispronounced quite a bit, followed by proper pronunciation: sebago is seh-bay-go, saco is Sock-o, Piscataquis is piss-cat-eh-kwah, yarmouth is yar-myth, to name a few

Chillicothe and Windsor
Chillicothe could be added. IPA is not my speciality. Varlaam (talk) 08:19, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

 * Windsor also belongs.
 * I heard a newsreader on the radio recently say "Wind-sore".

 * And Dalhousie is pronounced differently in Nova Scotia and Ontario.
 * Varlaam (talk) 17:12, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Ranulph

 * Ranulph, traditionally pronounced "ralf" as in Ranulph Fiennes.

151.170.240.10 (talk) 10:05, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Oxford Dictionary of Pronunciation for Current English shows that "Ranulph" has the obvious pronunciation of (or possibly ), whereas Ralph Fiennes says —rafe. Is there a reference anywhere?--Old Moonraker (talk) 11:37, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Note that Ranulph Fiennes is a different person from the English actor. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:24, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I should have linked the frostbitten explorer as well for clarity—thanks. Removing bold. --Old Moonraker (talk) 05:09, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

more
places to add:

Thame

Theydon Bois --94.14.106.8 (talk) 14:24, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Allesley, Coventry (awsly), Bedworth (bedurth) Lavateraguy (talk) 12:24, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I think bedurth has proven too local and older-folk a pronunciation. Whether that sort of narrow area where it is used qualifies please discuss at the bottom of the page. Adam37 (talk) 11:02, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Oxford Colleges
If we're going to include the colleges of Oxford University why not all of the strange pronunciations? Hertford is Hartford, Brasenose is Braise-Nose. Keble is Keeble. Linacre rhymes with Spinnaker. Pembroke is Pembrook with first syllable stress. Wadham is Wad-um. Somerville is Summerville. I'd add it myself but I don't know IPA. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CptBuck (talk • contribs) 17:23, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

 * Indented line

Because Brasenose is pronounced exactly as its spelt, and Somerville, Wadham and Keble are hardly "counterintuitive" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.233.22.147 (talk) 20:10, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

 * While this convo is long-dead mostly for good reason, a little note on the prefix: Wad/Wall would not go awry at the start. They we can get rid of Wallasey but understanding it like Wallington.  Also on a note arguably on the suffix Broke (eg Bolingbroke, Pembroke and I think there are a few more). Adam37 (talk) 10:59, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

'English words with uncommon properties' deleted
The page English words with uncommon properties was deleted per Articles for deletion/English words with uncommon properties. Deletion review is currently under way at Deletion review, but pending that discussion the article has no content. I have therefore removed the hatnote from this article redirecting users to that one. Cnilep (talk) 01:09, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

non-English surnames
As it is now, it seems that the list includes names that only happen to be attached to people who live in English-speaking countries. I would suggest that it would be more logical for the list to only include names that are of some longstanding provenance within the Anglophone domain. This would make for a much shorter list, but a more navigable and, I venture, more interesting one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.69.64.60 (talk) 03:35, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

And to clarify, I'm referring to names such as Favre, Schiavo, etc. These names' pronunciation may be counterintuitive but this isn't of much relevance to English language or history as such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.69.64.60 (talk) 03:41, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Support-I'm going to start weeding--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 17:14, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Disastrous use of bot
Hi Deflective. I am about to reverse your recent edit to this page. Have you not checked through the article to see what chaos your bot has created? Your revisions to the English section may or may not be fine (I'm not sufficiently conversant with IPA to be able to judge) but the American section has been reduced to gibberish. SiGarb | (Talk) 20:36, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

 * I don't see anything wrong. Can you give an example? — kwami (talk) 20:43, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see it. It changes each time I look at it. Yes, the template is not supported on this page. Too many transclusions. — kwami (talk) 20:46, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Yep. It's always worth checking over a page after you edit it! SiGarb | (Talk) 21:02, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
 * (PS Interestingly, I noticed that it looked perfect in the revert edit two-window view!) SiGarb | (Talk) 21:04, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Opening a can of worms!
I've removed the following "explanation" from the intro, because it is far more complicated than this suggests and this is probably not the place to start opening this can of worms, or at least not without citing plenty of reliable references etc.

" Sometimes it is because the name has been Anglicized from a foreign language and a non speaker of that language does not recognise the origins ( eg Thibodeau) . Or because the original place name is Roman in origin and the current pronunciation may possibly represent the original Latin pronunciation ( eg Bicester) "

Many of the "English" examples given here are of Scottish place names/personal names that are, quite reasonably, pronounced as they are in Scottish Gaelic, Scots or even Scottish English. Likewise those in Northern Ireland and Ireland which are derived from (and pronounced as in) Irish Gaelic. They should, logically, be removed from this list, because if these are included, why not include every non-Anglicised Welsh placename? Then there's the issue of England's many local accents and dialects; should place names be transcribed as local speakers would pronounce them, not as, say, a 1950s BBC news-reader might have done? Is "Dudley" for instance, "Dood-luuy" or "Dadly"? Is "Newcastle" (upon Tyne) pronounced "Ny'cassel" or "Newcaarsle"?

And of course the situation in the USA is even more complex! SiGarb | (Talk) 21:35, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Non-rhotic "-shire" pronunication.
As most of the "shires" on the list are English, and as EngE is almost entirely non-rhotic, the following from the article seems at best incomplete, if not entirely misleading: "-shire – /-ʃər, -ʃɪər/; (-shər, -shēr)". My best guesses would be "/-ʃə/", "/-ʃɪə/", "/-ʃaɪə/", depending on whom you're talking to... and about where. 84.203.32.213 (talk) 14:04, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
 * See IPA for English, where it says "In many dialects, occurs only before a vowel; if you speak such a dialect, simply ignore  in the pronunciation guides where you would not pronounce it, as in cart .". Or Help:IPA conventions for English where it says "Wikipedia's WP:IPA for English key, on the other hand, is intended to cover RP, General American, Australian, and other national standards. As such, Wikipedia transcribes /r/ where it is found in rhotic dialects, but also the vowel distinctions found in non-rhotic dialects, without distinct UK and US transcriptions. Specific dialects may also be transcribed—local pronunciations of place names are often useful, for example—but they are normally written in addition to a more universal pronunciation.". --   Dr Greg   talk  19:02, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
 * That's a tad on the implicit side for my liking, since the entire point of the article is (hyper)localised pronunciations, but I suppose it does technically cover the matter, especially as there's a link to the IPA metadoc in the lede. So, should "/-ʃaɪər/" appear as a third (i.e., fifth and sixth...) possibility, to cover what a non-rhot would be likely to say for the instances where the local pronunciation is rhotic and non-reduced?  84.203.32.213 (talk) 00:36, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Since that isn't the counter-intuitive part of the name, I'd say no. — kwami (talk) 02:07, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
 * That seems to be begging the question of "whose intuition"! What about adding in a "baseline" or "expected" pronunciation explicitly in those terms, for contrast, then?  (Ideally for all the items in that section, for symmetry.)  84.203.35.37 (talk) 17:21, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
 * My own view on this, which may not be the official Wikipedia line, is that although the "Queen's English" (RP) is non-rhotic, there are a number of rhotic regional accents in the UK, so in fact, , and  are all heard within the UK (the first two more likely than the last two), so none of them sound wrong to a British ear. Whereas, in my opinion,  and  are hardly ever heard coming from a British mouth (at the end of a county name) and sound wrong to a British ear (except, perversely, in the standalone word "shire" which is always pronounced as ). --   Dr Greg   talk  18:26, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I assume you're thinking largely of English English accents here, as for example Scottish English, as well as being rhotic, reduces this suffix much less. And of course, there are a number of Scottish "-shire"s.  Listening to some examples over at forvo.com, there seems to be some variation in the range /-ʃɪər/ to /-ʃaɪər/.  (Though I'm not sure I'd 100% trust either my ear or my IPA.)  84.203.36.1 (talk) 16:24, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

New Orleans
I know most Americans are used to pronouncing the "s" in Orleans, but the proper french pronunciation is "or-lay-on". If your have Versailles in this list, shouldn't you also have New Orleans (and other places like Orleans, Indiana?  --rogerd (talk) 18:26, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Evesham
Can someone add Evesham/GB please? I do not know how to pronounce it. --93.211.169.78 (talk) 13:35, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Since it includes a phoneme with two common pronunciations that, alas, does not make it counterintuitive. It is perhaps, probable given Faversham and other shams you see on a map (but not of course Masham!), eev-sh'm. Adam37 (talk) 09:40, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Two Cambridges (UK)
Although it's widely thought (citation?) that Cambridge (Gloucestershire) is pronounced /ˈkæmbrɪdʒ/, the locals pronounce it /ˈkeɪmbrɪdʒ/ (like the one in Cambridgeshire) --- my brother moved there over a year ago and says he's asked around and that no-one there can remember it ever being called /ˈkæmbrɪdʒ/. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.33.159.2 (talk) 14:04, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

does this count?
Near where I grew up there is a village called Hartingfordbury. The pronunciation of this is urt-brie, which is urt as in hurt and brie as in the cheese. This seems counter-intuitive to me, but I'm not sure if it counts for inclusion in the list and I don't know anything about IPA; except the beer. Cheers  Cottonshirt  τ   05:00, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Definitely nothing odd, in my opinion. While conflicting with the local UK exception of saying Hert like Hart (Hertsmere and Hertford), this is of course standard pronunciation in its own right, though not being far from Hertford may cause some local mistakes...  Nonetheless brie is exactly what is standard for bury (see top of the article).  Anyone with often a family link to a manor (or simply taught to say their words more as they are spelt) may still say hertingf'udb'uh'ree in a spelt-out way, as is optional, which is also more common among women.Adam37 (talk) 09:35, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Ashtead
As can be seen in the article and its main history sources, Ashstead was the historic spelling. This lends most local people to say it that way still but I cannot find a citation. Is this accepted, or are we reduced to thinking everyone says it like an Ash-related Ted (whoever Ted is?)... Adam37 (talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * You're probably right, but I just couldn't find any mention of an unusual pronunciation online. Afasmit (talk) 12:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Bicester
''While /stər/ for -cester is "regular", the /ɪ/ sound still comes as a surprise to most.
 * This is pure debate, and unreferenced but we won't rely on that fact as fluidity applies, and local knowledge, please discuss. Slight surprise is irrelevant if follows other rules, see Schenectady.''

 * Out of courtesy to other editors, being a user who trusts reasonable editors, which given the other edits of the article, so far everyone has been totally, thanks, I've left this one in. Certain other editors on here would have removed it.

 * My qualm is that based on rules of common exceptions, many of which you can see in the poem The Chaos for example, and in obviously country-consistent places such as Schenectady, which may look German but is not so is 'ske...', I don't think really this counts.

 * If however you can show other words starting with bi- (not scientific words) and sounding like "by" then this might be ok, particularly plae names. I cannot think of another bici or bice place so cannot support the current inclusion (as if we are really to assume people would jump to the Greek or Latin pronunciation of British place names (even with roman origins) then that would be wrong...Adam37 (talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

 * P.S. I may have just undermined my argument on that one what do you think? Adam37 (talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * A good benchmark for adding words to this list has been that a name (online) is frequently followed by "pronounced xxx! Can you believe it?". Perhaps there could be other standards, but it describes "counterintuitive" pretty well. At any rate, Bicester is generally followed by "huh?". I bet most people see "Bicester" and think of "vices", "nicest", "biceps" or even "bice" if they know that word. "Bister" may not come to mind after having even considered "chicest" (/ʃiːkəst/) ;-) Afasmit (talk) 12:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps but given cester is standard (istn't it!!) I am sure if the word was Biceminster or Bicing you would take a different view and call that intuitive, perhaps warped in logic on that one.Adam37 (talk) 11:12, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Edenham
In Lincolnshire. I agree with the later comment in the article. The common rule for any word beginning Eden, in my experienced view is that is going to be pronounced "Eeden", particularly with places.Adam37 (talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm with you here. I wouldn't guess /ˈɛdnəm/}, even knowing about -ham. Hope it wasn't my comment. Afasmit (talk) 12:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Kingston Bagpuize
Really is this that obvious or consistent with exceptions? If it were Bagpuze then definitely. My contention is it should follow the pattern of Huish Episcopi or Ruishton - please comment.Adam37 (talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I commented "Not sure how this is counterintuitive: "ui" usually is pronounced /uː/ (juice, nuisance, suit) and the /j/ is standard after /p/ (e.g. in the otherwise hilariously pronounced puisne)." If /pjuːz/ is not one's first guess (it happened to be mine) than it probably would be the second. We're looking for fourth guesses here. The spelling may be weird, but we're not listing weird spellings. Afasmit (talk) 12:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Oswaldtwistle
This has been a bone of contention for three years. During that time it has largely stayed put. Normally the ending is naturally like whistle, granted. In my understanding I've only ever heard it as properly pronounced by Lancastrians without the wəl sound in the middle.Adam37 (talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I've never heard anyone pronounce it, but when you work for the BBC you apparently have to pronounce it ozzul-twizzle, which they somehow call "incomparable" . Afasmit (talk) 12:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

South Elmsall
This has been removed. However it seems someone failed to notice its reason for inclusion in the first place. It is due to the second syllable, Elm being pronounced "Em" - can we agree this is counterintuitive? Adam37 (talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps people thought of the often silent l in words containing -alm, but I don't think it happens after an /ɛ/. Odd enough to include, I'd say. Afasmit (talk) 12:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Tottenham
This is probably my favorite polemic. I'm tempted to sit tight and clam up. Whilst one can just about find and cite a recorded source of a person from the London or Home Counties saying straight, without pretense of grandeur, Tot-te-nam, it is exactly like Puttenham, Hertfordshire, Puttenham, Surrey and at least 6 others so I don't think it should be included, even as a <>. Adam37 (talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed. The advantage of keeping a <> is that the next editor who wants to add Tottenham sees that it has a reason not to be there. Afasmit (talk) 12:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

The Whitacres
This is my addition. Afasmit has hidden it, relegated it to <>. In my view it ought to be pronounced in the same way as Longacre. Perhaps there are other examples?Adam37 (talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Not to be a wiseacre, which apparently intuits, I mentioned "massacre" and the surnames "Whitacre" and "Whitaker" as showing the same pattern. We've not included the surnames either. There are probably too many names where the stress is not where you at first expect it to list here. Afasmit (talk) 12:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * It is not a matter of stress, but one of a different IPA sound completely.Adam37 (talk) 13:07, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree that /ˈwaɪtˌeɪkər/ comes to mind before /ˈwɪtɵkər/, but schwa-ification is commonplace and there are so many parallels to the /aɪ/ -> /ɪ/ change in common English three-syllable words (e.g. misery despite miser; vicarage despite vicar; etc.) that the second guess seems relatively intuitive. Afasmit (talk) 20:29, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Yeavering
Given the rare verb heavering and perhaps cleavering I am a bit surprised this one has dubious annotated in <>. Really it is a place that would logically be spelled Yevering given the verbs we know of rather than the nouns but some officious middle English scribe seems to have added an a. I don't see why given the enormous common mistakes the -ing as a tribal place name ending causes they could not have used something a little more logical in spelling.Adam37 (talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * This one isn't hidden, and given words like heaven and leaven the "borderline" note seems accurate. Again, the oddness of the spelling doesn't matter; after /jiːvərɪŋ/, you try /jeɪvərɪŋ/ or /jɛvərɪŋ/, each standard pronunciations of "ea". And those are rare verbs indeed: onelook.com doesn't even list them. Afasmit (talk) 12:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Someone added a note with Reading saying "Like Yeavering below.", but Reading is here entirely for the extreme familiarity of the word reading. Afasmit (talk) 20:29, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Kelowna, British Columbia
Far be it from me to say anything, other than someone hates noting the historic pronunciation assuming that was added in good faith.Adam37 (talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Not my fight. Either way seems hardly counterintuitive to me. If you guess /oʊ/ like blown than /aʊ/ like clown would be your second guess, so it shouldn't even be here. Now Osoyoos to the south, that belongs;-) Afasmit (talk) 12:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Exotic anthroponyms e.g. Chynna
Look at the category below, give me statistics on how common a name like Chynna Phillips is and then decide whether we will add all 1000 or so names with less than 0.1% of the English and US populations having them, or whether this is to be excluded? Adam37 (talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

This is no place to start describing exotic celebrities like notoriously difficult to pronounce from spelling Israeli/Chinese ones just as people struggle with their names.Adam37 (talk) 10:18, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know. She's married into the Baldwins; instant publicity right there. Many of the surnames listed are rare and not carried by celebrities at all; but why would that be a requirement? We're limited to English-born (or English-mangled) names here. Chinese doesn't come in the picture, even if her name sounds like China. Afasmit (talk) 12:26, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

 * Exactly I meant not a placed to list an exotically-named anybody. If someone's name is imported from a foreign language then great but this category will become totally unwieldy.Adam37 (talk) 13:13, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I think names like Antawn, Chynna, MaliVai, Matraca, Michellie, Picabo and Wynonna makes the list of given names interesting. In the past common names like John have been added and deleted (both by other editors than me), the latter probably because of too high familiarity to be counterintuitive to anyone anymore. Right now "Freda" (like alameda, credal, Fredonia, predate) and the "Th" names Anthony, Theresa, Thomas from Ancient Greek (where θ was /tʰ/ rather than /θ/, which approximate pronunciation is adopted in all languages but perhaps modern Greek;-) seem a bit underwhelming in the line-up. Afasmit (talk) 20:29, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I like your points, I really do. I wonder on this one though if you would accept that is as we were brought up with them.  We probably even studied greek or latin, or at the very least know a lot of those sort of names.  This however no longer holds true for much of the English speaking world.  Many names are pure imports, if they are common hybrids, or major departures from their original setting purely as they have gained popularity in an English speaking country then we can have imports too.  It is nice that people have such a variety of names.Adam37 (talk) 11:09, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I would merely add it is appropriate that in such a list we draw the line at the most common, such as approaching 0.1% of any English main language country population and another one having the name, we will then have exciting sections on more obscure mostly English speaking areas, such as much of the Caribbean, and perhaps the most common oddities from Nigeria, Ghana, Kenya where it can be shown these are also "common" on that measure in another set of countries.  Regional names should have their own setting and rules, that is obvious for anyone who studies languages.Adam37 (talk) 11:16, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

So...
What's exactly happened here? Not making sense of the diffs and the summaries are useless. — Lfdder (talk) 11:49, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi Lfdder, the reason, in looking through the history section, you may be confused was it was for much of that suffering from Category:Pages where template include size is exceeded. The purpose of using the standard IPAc-en template has been neatening this article which resulted in its content (which I pre-prepared ready for upload with the single, combined and requested neatened IPA format) going briefly wrong.  This is now fully up and running, with US and UK and Ireland pages split off to enable the page to work property.

 * This is used instead of two conflicting phonetic alphabets, one of which is in certain instances deprecated by all other phonetic alphabets, i.e. Longman's dictionary.

 * If this page grows longer much more then we may have to consider splitting off the less densely inhabited countries with fewer counterintuitive place names, or indeed simply carry on using Template:IPA-en with a final pipe (|) towards the bottom of the article to avoid the same technical problem. -Adam37 (talk) 13:56, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for explaining. — Lfdder (talk) 22:32, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Schenectady
I fail to see how, as is stated in the lead, the pronunciation of Schenectady is not counterintuitive. I've never been able to look at that word without my brain reading it as. — TORTOISE WRATH  22:27, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

 * Well whoever wrote it was definitely American and probably that side of the country, or they wouldn't be willing to pick such a regional example. My understanding of Americans is that they overwhelmingly say "Skej/dyu(h)l" for Schedule (which is by the way pretty much the norm in the rest of the English speaking word now: it sounds more robust in high-end business circles).  However British England debates/reality aside: as Afasmit writes above, perhaps heavy-handedly at times, but quite rightly, where it is a matter of unforeseen stress, unless this strongly conflicts with known comparators (eg Berlin U.S.-style vs German) then it should not appear in one of these lists.  Now of course the debate on this one perhaps then centres around whether Schenectady looks German or American Indian/US English - in my view as someone consider such very upstate places in context, or indeed, looking even more US-English examples that sound similar like Schema/Scheme most people would realise the latter, despite words like Schaffer/Schneider being well-known. Adam37 (talk) 08:29, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

 * Also, when you hear the correct pronunciation, you can see how it the spelling fits, even if you wouldn't have guessed it correctly. A counter-intuitive pronunciation is one that doesn't fit the spelling, like Tucson.  — kwami (talk) 17:25, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Not really counterintuitive
I was going to remove a couple of the Canadian examples, since they seem to be conflicting with the introduction. But there were to many to just be bold uninvitedly, so I'll put 'em up here.

With the following I think the pronunciation is understandable if you get it, even if not obvious:

 * Agassiz – /ˈæɡəsi/ - a silent last "s" or "z" appears quite often
 * Job's Cove, Newfoundland and Labrador – /ˈdʒoʊbz/ (after biblical Job) - unless the place is pronounced without "cove", I fail to see anything here
 * Kelowna, British Columbia – /kəˈloʊnə/
 * Keremeos, British Columbia – /ˌkɛrɨˈmiː.əs/
 * L'Ardoise, Nova Scotia – /ˈlɔərdweɪz/ - somewhat mutated French but still understandable
 * Osoyoos, British Columbia – /ɒˈsuːjuːs/ or /ɒˈsuːjəs/ and (originally) /ˈsuːjuːs/ - again, every letter is easily accounted for
 * Pouce Coupe, British Columbia - /ˈpuːskuːpiː/ - not really sure about this one, the ending pronounciation in "i" is somewhat counterintuitive, but again easily recognizable franglais.
 * Quebec – /kəˈbɛk/ or /kwɨˈbɛk/ - both pronunciations are easily derivable from the spelling. Maybe as with the next example, somebody wanted to point out the differences in pronouncing "Qu", but since there are multiple ways to do it, and both are regularily used, we cannot rule them all out.
 * Quesnel, British Columbia – /kwɨˈnɛl/
 * Quidi Vidi, Newfoundland – /ˈkɪdi.vɪdi/
 * Saanich Peninsula and related place names in British Columbia – /ˈsænɨtʃ/ - So what would be the "non-counterintuitive" pronunciation?
 * Sechelt, British Columbia – /ˈsiːʃɛlt/
 * Summerland, British Columbia – /ˈsʌmərlænd/ (not /ˈsʌmərlənd/) - really marginal difference, you can see how it comes. May stay according to the "better known differently pronounced namesake", if it exists, but cannot stand on its own IMO

Even if stated as absolutes, of course these are only my takes, but I think such a list should go for the more extreme ones, lest it be filled with basically any place name. --Ulkomaalainen (talk) 13:21, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for checking in first. We have had lots of cleanups, but, as hundreds of editors have contributed and had their own idea of counterintuitiveness, these pages have been hard to maintain and I don’t think anyone is trying to keep them consistent anymore. By now, most of the United States and Australian names do not appear counterintuitive to me at all. We suggested to have “you’d not guess this at your second try” as a rule, but there will always be people who guess right the second time;-) Mangled or incomplete Anglicisations are unpredictable and therefore counterintuitive in above sense in my eyes, and Canada has a fair share of those. Here are my votes:
 * Agassiz. Probable keep. Silent S is common, silent Z not. The shift of the stress from the third to the first syllable makes it pretty far from the original, while most people unfamiliar with the geologist wouldn’t guess a Swiss-French origin down in British Colombia.
 * Job’s Cove. Probably agreed. The pronunciation of the guy Job himself is odd, but in this case people who’ve heard of him would guess the right pronunciation at worst the second time.
 * Kelowna and Keremeos: Agreed.
 * L’Ardoise. Keep for irregular mutilation. How hard is it to approximate the French with /lɑrdwɑz/? A monolingual person may guess /lɑrdoiz/, but /ˈlɔrdweɪz/?
 * Osoyoos. Keep. Even ignoring the sometimes silent first or schwaed third syllables, I challenge you to find someone to pronounce this right the first and second time around. The second syllable will be/soː/ and then /sɔj/, after which they will start laboring on the other syllables;-)
 * Pouce Coupe. Keep, even if just for levity's sake. The Anglicisation from Pouce Coupé (/pus kuˈpe/) actually makes some sense, but with the accent lost, people will always go for /ˈpuːs kuːp/
 * Quebec. Agreed.
 * Quesnel. Probable keep, as this one is only halfway Anglicized. Either do /kəˈnɛl/ or /ˈkwɛsnəl/. Perhaps a century from now.
 * Quidi Vidi. Probably keep “kiddy viddy”. The /ɪ/ versus /iː/ most counters my intuit. Some websites even suggest “Kitty vitty”, which would be delicious if only true. It also has a Latin feel to it (veni, vidi, vici), suggesting /kw/, but it apparently comes from the Portuguese “porto qui dividi”, where "qui" is indeed /ki/.
 * Saanich Peninsula. Agreed.
 * Sechelt. Weak keep. Wouldn’t be my first or second guess (/ˈsɛtʃəlt/ and then /səˈʃɛl/ assuming French). Apparently it is named after the /ˈʃiːʃɛlt/ people, and if they had kept that pronunciation it would have been a shoe-in. Why did they spell it this way?
 * Summerland. Agreed. Good example of a bad entry. Afasmit (talk) 20:25, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Niamh, Irene
I added Niamh to the general given name list. It might belong in the Common Irish/Welsh list, so if someone wants to move it, that's cool (it belongs with Siobhan anyway, right?)

I'd like to see Irene (i.e. Irenë) added as well, but I don't have a "definitive" IPA for that one, and the name's entry isn't all that helpful. Perhaps "Irenë" (there's certainly precedent) is good enough? Eastcheap (talk) 04:52, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Berenstain vs Berenstein
Is it really the "Berenstain Bears", and not "Berenstein Bears", like a lot of people believe? Seems like this is a pretty common mistake.

There is a (probably tongue in cheek) Blog post here that attributes this to a time warp -- most people would swear it is the latter spelling, even in the face of proof.

http://woodbetweenworlds.blogspot.ca/2012/08/the-berenstein-bears-we-are-living-in.html

The above Blog post has some interesting comments by the son of Jan and Stan Berenstain (author of the "Berenstain Bears" collection.) You can find a surprising number of other references on the web to this odd phenomenon. A lot of people SWEAR it is Berenstein (with an "ein" rather than "ain"). While investigating this phenomenon, I ended up here on this amazing page, and I think it might be interesting to include this. 24.129.47.121 (talk) 13:44, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

English? Or not?
Is this article supposed to be about English or longtime Anglicized names with counterintuitive pronunciations, or any name borne by an English-speaking person in a largely English-speaking country whose name happens to have an unexpected pronunciation for another English-speaking person?

Since the latter opens up a huge can of worms -- the US is a nation of immigrants, a great many of whom have names which strictly speaking have counterintuitive pronunciations by the normal rules of English orthography, only many are so familiar they don't seem that way -- and because other examples of the umlaut are not included (such as Boehner), I'm being bold and cutting Groening from the surname section. It's a German surname whose pronunciation is perfectly intuitive to a German-speaker. 192.35.35.34 (talk) 22:21, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
 * There are indeed many names that are not Anglo-Saxon. Especially names of ultimately French, Gaelic, Spanish or Native American languages show up a lot. The list will become small when you'd exclude all those. A decent rule would be to exclude those that are regularly Anglicized versions or are approaches of the original pronunciation. The German long vowel oe or ö (/ø/) doesn't exist in English and is prone to imaginative pronunciating, but I would be surprised if Germans find /eɪ/ intuitive, in the same way French people would find it odd to hear /dəpardjeɪ/ for Depardieu. The regular Anglicized pronunciation is /oː/, as in Boeing, Koenig, Poehler, Roeper and Schrödinger, or, for a pronunciation estimate, /ɜ/ as in Goethe. I think Boehner was in the list for a long time as well, and I would keep it. Boehner and Groening's families probably decided to avoid "boner" and "groaning", but I don't think that makes the chosen pronunciation intuitive. Afasmit (talk) 22:51, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

"Celeb" given name
Is "Celeb" a misprint of "Caleb", or is it really a common given name? It's invisible under the results for celebrity in attempting a web search for usages.

Willhsmit (talk) 04:07, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Surname Jervis
According to the list of surnames in this article, this name is pronounced /ˈdʒɑːvɪs/. However, I know a number of people in the UK who have the name, several of them members of my family, and all of them pronounce it /ˈdʒɜːvɪs/ (rhyming with "service"). All the people I know with the name have a connection with the town of Stafford. Is there anyone out there who has this surname, spelt with an e, who pronounces it with the a sound? I have never met one. LynwoodF (talk) 22:41, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

 * Nobody has come back to me on this, and so I shall remove the entry, because what it says just isn't true. LynwoodF (talk) 21:19, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Maori place names in New Zealand
Many of the place names in New Zealand are not in English, but Maori. Given that their pronunciations are not counterintuitive in Maori, and that this page is for English names only, I have removed these entries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimworm (talk • contribs) 10:59, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I would argue that the ones which share spelling with well known English words and/or place names, such as Omaha, New Zealand, should probably stay. So should Kumara, New Zealand , which is pronounced in a different way to the far more commonly heard name of the vegetable kumara (, also Maori). A lot of New Zealanders get these particular place names wrong for exactly those reasons. Also, since fully 1/3 of the Australian place names are of Aboriginal origin (Wagga Wagga, Goondiwindi, Tallangatta, Mudgeeraba, Wangi Wangi, Woonona...) and one of them is Maori (Manuka), a considerable number of the Canadian and American ones (the latter on a separate page) are of First Nation origin (Osoyoos, Tsawwassen, Etobicoke, Chewelah, Acequia, Connecticut, Skagit, Pawtucket, Neodesha...), and others on the list are the normal pronunciation in their originating languages (e.g., Quebec is pronounced no differently in English to Occitan, and Pago Pago is not counterintuitive in Samoan), why should Maori be singled out in this way? Unless I hear a logical reason why this rule should apply to one and not the others, I'll add these placenames back. Grutness...wha?

 * Many Maori place names begin with or contain the combination "wh," which in some cases is pronounced as in English which, when, where, etc., but in others pronounced like English "f." They should be included—at least those names where the "f" sound occurs. 69.42.17.116 (talk) 01:27, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Finding a pronunciation counterintuitive is not the same as being ignorant of pronunciation rules. Many entries should be culled.
I suggest that the scope of this page be narrowed considerably to names that are genuinely counterintuitive rather than those for which some speakers are merely unaware of the standard pronunciation rules. For example, Featherstonhaugh/Fanshaw, Tagliaferro/Tulliver, Marjoribanks/Marshbanks are worth including, but Hermione or Penelope are not. A pronunciation that has drifted a little due to changes in spelling or vowel/consonant shifts in the language over time is not counterintuitive to an educated native speaker; neither is a loan word which has been anglicised (Beauchamp/Beecham), or a word which has been mildly abbreviated but has not elided entire syllables (Bicester/Bister)

A word should only be included here as counterintuitive if it passes this test: it cannot be pronounced correctly, even by an educated native speaker, unless they have previously been told the correct pronunciation. Literally, it cannot be intuited.

I admit a few entries are borderline under this definition; Menzies & Dalziel (Meengis and Dayell) are not counterintuitive to an educated Scot, but would be to any Sassenach who was not aware that the 'z' was originally a different letter now missing in English orthography which was pronounced roughly like the sound represented by 'ng'; Worcester/Wooster may be too much of an elision to skate by on the elision exception (Pron. "Woorster" becomes "Wooster"); Mainwaring suffers a vowel shift and de-emphasises the 'w' to become Manaring; but there are far fewer of these problematic borderline calls than there are of names which are included here solely because the person who added them is ignorant of English pronunciation rules or those of the languages from where many of the names came - there is no excuse for including any of Anthony, Caleb, Chloe, Chloë, Geoffrey, Freda, Hermione, Hugh, Isaac, Isla, Liza, Malachi, Michael, Naomi, Näomi, Penelope, Phoebe, Sonny, Thomas, Vaughan, Vaughn, Wynonna, Zachary, or Zoe, all of which would be pronounced correctly by most native speakers of English on first sight. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.116.98.136 (talk) 02:34, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

Table/ IPA-Less Pronunciation Key/ Rename
Why don't we make a table for the names and add a section for how the names would be spelled if the followed pronunciation conventions of the respective country? Also can we have a more catchy and recognizable name for this thing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zontas (talk • contribs) 02:57, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Help with IPA
I want to add the Canberra, Australia suburb "Fairbairn", that is pronounced "Fair-burn". This site pronounces it more like "Fair-bear-n", but locals say it like "Fair-burn". How do I support/reference the local pronunciation? And can someone help me with the IPA pronunciation? Thanks. peterl (talk) 16:48, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

 * Hello, . The YouTube pronunciation is not at all counterintuitive, but judging by the way Australians I know say Melbourne, I guess that in Canberra they say, or possibly , as you suggest. I cannot find any reference online, but there are plenty of unreferenced entries on this page. By the way, hover over the elements of the IPA spellings, to see which sounds are represented. I hope this helps. LynwoodF (talk) 23:05, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

 * That's great! Thanks LynwoodF. peterl (talk) 10:03, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

 * Glad to be of help, . LynwoodF (talk) 13:02, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

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Dubious names

 * Betjeman - doesn't seem that counterintuitive. The only English pronunciation that makes sense for "tj" is /tʃ/, as /tdʒ/ would pick up a vowel (/tədʒ/), and /tʒ/ has a voicing conflict. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jerdle (talk • contribs) 17:14, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Renaming proposal
I wonder if "counterintuitive" is a POV statement and is wholly dependent on what is familiar to the reader or to a certain group of readers, which is not WP:GLOBAL. It may be counterintuitive for a native English speaker, but might not be counterintuitive for, say, a Brit vs. an American, or for a Scot or a Native American, or a latinophone or francophone, or anyone familiar with the linguistic origin of the name.

I suggest "List of names in English-speaking countries that are frequently mispronounced." The word "frequently" isn't perfect, but it's less contentious than "counterintuitive" which is much more subjective.

Honestly the page structure of this meta-list is problematic. Place names and surnames are lumped together, as are place names of different countries who speak English differently. IMO better to separate place names geographically and first/last names ethnically/by heritage.

- Keith D. Tyler ¶ 23:03, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

 * Maybe to English irregular name pronunciations? I'm all for the change, given the article title is too lengthy and unintuitive to look up. Starbeam2 (talk) 18:29, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I should be something to the effect of "names with irregular spellings". The pronunciations are the words per se. The spellings are an auxiliary tool that we use to record them for longer. Nardog (talk) 18:37, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * That's a good point. How is 'English names spelled irregularly'? Starbeam2 (talk) 21:31, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Or maybe more defensively, "English names spelled unconventionally"? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 10:32, 12 May 2020 (UTC) No, on second thoughts, 'irregular' is better. My concern is that 'regular' presupposes a rule, but there isn't one. In England, one [HMQ??] might say 'in a manner inconsistent with received pronunciation' but what about AU, CA, IRE, NZ, US? 'Irregular is the least worst option, certainly vastly better than the present blatantly opinionated title, so let's go with that one. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 15:18, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Welp, going to do it tomorrow, any last objections? Starbeam2 (talk) 12:34, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I've done the renamings. Starbeam2 (talk) 17:10, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Delete names that are transliterations of names in other languages
A number of the entries in this article are not really English (language), they are transliterations of names in other languages (First Nations, Hindi, Irish, Welsh etc). It seems to me that they really should not be listed because it is entirely unreasonable to expect them to be pronounced according to the conventions of English. Does anyone have a convincing argument for their retention? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 17:37, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Chatham, Ontario
I know there's a place with that name already in the UK, so it might be covered there, but there's also a similarly spelt city in Ontario pronounced "Chat-Ham", which is counterintuitive to the "th" sound. And I've heard someone refer to it as "Chay-tham", which is incorrect. Infinity Project (talk) 06:44, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Colin Powell was not a “politician.” He never ran for any office. 2601:183:4880:EFC0:180A:1C5A:2980:C71A (talk) 17:23, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Respellings
I fixed all respellings to make sure they are all correct, including adding another s to not make a ‘z’ sound and h after g before e, i, and y. Güiseppi669 (talk) 09:07, 28 April 2024 (UTC)


text:
Billie Ray Martin

Birgit Dieckmann, known professionally as Billie Ray Martin, is a German singer and songwriter, known for her single "Your Loving Arms", which reached the top 10 of both the UK Singles Chart (#6) and the Irish Singles Chart (#8) in 1995, and reached number one on the US Dance Club Chart. She was also one of the vocalists on the S'Express UK top 10 hit single "Hey Music Lover" (1989), and had UK top 40 hits as lead vocalist of Electribe 101 with "Tell Me When the Fever Ended" (1989) and "Talking with Myself" (1990), and as a solo singer with "Running Around Town" (1995) and "Imitation of Life" (1996).

Early life
Born in Hamburg, West Germany, she grew up near Reeperbahn, St. Pauli, in the city's red-light district. She lived with her working-class grandparents, who exposed her to Elvis Presley and German schlager music.

Career beginnings
In the early 1980s, Billie Ray Martin moved to Berlin. It was the time of electronic bands like Cabaret Voltaire, Throbbing Gristle and the early Human League, shaping Martin's conceptions of music. Simultaneously, she encountered the soul music of Martha Reeves and the Vandellas, Aretha Franklin and the Motown revival. In Berlin, she formed an eleven piece soul and sixties inspired band called Billie and the Deep. Their live shows became very popular in Berlin in 1985–86.

After these experiences, Billie Ray Martin moved to London, where she placed an ad in Melody Maker reading "soul rebel seeks musical genius". The ad led to a meeting with four men from Birmingham who had been looking for a voice to add to their music, resulting in the formation of Electribe 101. The band returned to Birmingham, where they recorded their first song, entitled "Talking with Myself", releasing it as a 12" single on their own Hipnotic label. It was noticed by manager Tom Watkins (who managed Pet Shop Boys, Bros and East 17). Electribe 101 signed with Watkins, and his label Phonogram Records.

Meanwhile, Billie Ray Martin had met DJ Mark Moore who invited her to the studio to work with his band S'Express. Martin contributed to three songs on their debut album Original Soundtrack: "Pimps, Pushers and Prostitutes", "L'Age du Gateau" and "Hey Music Lover" (retitled 'Music Lover' in the US). The latter became the third S'Express single, and a top 10 UK hit (reaching #6), giving Martin her first Top of the Pops appearance. She traveled across Europe with the group for a number of TV appearances in support of the single.

Electribe 101's first single with Phonogram was "Tell Me When the Fever Ended" released in November 1989, reaching No. 32 on the UK charts, and No. 23 on the Billboard Dance charts. "Talking with Myself" was re-released in February 1990 with a Frankie Knuckles mix and became a hit reaching No. 23 in the UK and No. 8 on the Billboard Dance charts. DJ and producer Marshall Jefferson refused to remix it as he felt it was "already perfect". "Talking with Myself" remains a club classic and has appeared on countless Ibiza and chill-out compilations over the past 22 years. "Talking with Myself" was re-mixed in 1998 and reached No. 39 in the UK charts.

Billie Ray Martin appeared on the cover of i-D Magazine, as well as weekly music/pop periodicals such as: NME, Melody Maker, Smash Hits, Record Mirror and Number One. NME described her style as looking like 'Cilla Black on Acid' when she made her first Top of the Pops appearance. A connection with Steve Nieve led to her being a guest vocalist with house band Steve Nieve and The Playboys, singing "Stay With Me" and "Chain of Fools", on the Channel X UK television series The Last Resort with Jonathan Ross.

Electribe 101's third single was entitled "You’re Walking" and reached No. 50 on the UK charts, prior to the release of their debut album Electribal Memories. A live concert at London's The Town & Country Club (now The London Forum) was televised on ITV to coincide with the album's release. They also played at the Milton Keynes Bowl in support to Erasure. Electribe 101 were then selected as the supporting act for the European leg of Depeche Mode’s 'World Violation' tour, including several nights at both the Birmingham NEC and Wembley Arena. A fourth single was released – a cover of the Jesse Rae song "Inside Out", the video of which was filmed in Paris.

The band then set to work on their second album, with a provisional title of Electronic Soul. However, conflict with Watkins and Phonogram led to the album not being released. While seeking another label, the band broke up.

Solo: 1993–2002
BRM's debut solo release was at the end of 1993 in collaboration with the British dance duo Spooky on a cover of the Throbbing Gristle song 'Persuasion'. Her second release was the 'Four Ambient Tales' EP with Dave Ball and Richard Norris of The Grid. She made an appearance on The Jonathan Ross Show, performing a cover of Ann Peebles’ "I’m Gonna Tear Your Playhouse Down" with Slash from Guns N’Roses on guitar.

With a new set of songs, she signed with East West Records, a subsidiary of Warner Music. In the US, Martin was signed to Seymour Stein’s Sire Records. The first release with her new label was "Your Loving Arms" again with Dave Ball and Richard Norris of The Grid on production. The track reached No. 38 in November 1994. On a subsequent re-release the song peaked at No. 6 in the UK Singles Chart in May 1995, Martin once again appearing on Top of the Pops as well as various UK and European TV shows in support of the song. Further mixes by Todd Terry and Brothers in Rhythm helped the song reach No. 1. It also topped the Hot Dance Music/Club Play chart and eventually reached the top 50 of the Billboard Hot 100 and the top 20 of Radio & Records magazine's CHR/Pop airplay chart (ranking #76 on the 1996 year-end chart).

In February 1995, the Junior Vasquez mix of "True Moments Of My World" was being played in clubs, but was not released as her next single. Instead, "Running Around Town" was chosen and reached No. 29 in the UK, as well as hitting No. 1 on the club charts. Her solo album entitled Deadline For My Memories was planned for an Autumn release, but was delayed until 1996. It included several songs originally destined for Electribe 101's second album. The album was preceded by extensive press coverage including a number of magazine cover stories. Martin also guested on BBC Two's ...Later with Jools Holland performing two songs from the album: "Hands Up And Amen" and "I Don't Believe". The album was preceded by a third single, "Imitation Of Life", which reached No. 29. A video for the single was filmed in the docks and bars of Hamburg and featured members of Billie's family and friends. Deadline for My Memories was released at the end of January. Two further singles were released from the album: "Space Oasis", and the ballad, "You And I (Keep Holding On)". TV appearances continued, including a live MTV performance from Turkey.

Meanwhile, Martin continued to write songs for a projected second album, but left the Warner label and moved to New York, where she wrote with dance music producer, Fred Jorio. She signed with React Music Limited in the UK, and released the single, "Honey". The song hit No. 1 in the club charts but poor performance on the UK singles chart caused the cancellation of a planned second release. "Honey" debuted stateside courtesy of Nervous Records four years later. The song peaked at No. 1 on the Hot Dance Music/Club Play charts. During this time, she also recorded an album of soul and blues songs with the Jon Tiven Group in New York, but this album remains unreleased. A single and an EP of her drum and bass recordings were released by NY label Finetune recordings. The single was "Pacemaker" while the EP was entitled "Crime & Punishment".

In 2000, Martin travelled to Memphis, Tennessee to record her next album at the House of Blues studio. Her band was led by Marvell Thomas, son of Rufus Thomas, and featured members of Aretha Franklin’s own band. Ann Peebles and Carla Thomas provided backing vocals, while Peebles did a duet with Martin on the album's title track "Eighteen Carat Garbage". The album 18 Carat Garbage was released on Martin's own Sonnenstahl Records label. Four 12" singles on vinyl were initially released from the album: "Systems Of Silence" was released on 2 January 2001 followed by "18 Carat Garbage" on 16 January 2001 and then "I've Never Been To Memphis" in March 2001 and the Motown inspired "Where Fools Rush In" in September 2001. In 2002, Sonnenstahl Records released the 12-track CD Recycled Garbage, a compilation of remixes of selected tracks from 18 Carat Garbage.

Solo: 2003–current
In 2003, Martin released a series of singles on her new Disco Activisto label, including the electronic music club hits "No Brakes on My Rollerskates" and "Dead Again". In 2005–06 she released collaborations with DJ Hell and Slam. The song "Je Regrette Everything" (written by Billie and Mikael Delta) appeared on DJ Hell's album NY Muscle (Universal Music). DJ Hell said of Martin "she's one of the living legends in modern music history and one of the best voices on planet earth". "Bright Lights Fading" appeared on Slam's Year Zero album. Both this and "Je Regrette Everything" were subsequently released as singles. The Moroder-influenced solo single "Undisco Me" was released on Rebirth Records in April 2007, and reached No. 6 in the UK Dance Chart. Martin also began a second career as a disc jockey launching her own clubnight Komputerliebe in London and then Frankfurt.

In 2008, Martin formed a new band, The Opiates, with Robert Solheim producing. The Opiates made their live debut at Rough Trade, Brick Lane, London, in March, to coincide with the group's first release, the Anatomy of a Plastic Girl EP. In 2010, she released The Crackdown Project featuring her takes on the Cabaret Voltaire classic album, The Crackdown. 2011 began with the solo single "Sweet Suburban Disco". She corroborated with Hard Ton on the Sold Life EP, featuring a new song "Sold Life" and a cover of the Pierre's Pfantasy Club classic, "Fantasy Girl".

A second EP from The Opiates, titled Rainy Days and Remixes, was released in September 2011 as a prelude to their album Hollywood Under The Knife. A short UK tour including a performance at HMV on Oxford Street, London launched the album, which was packaged in imagery by Turner Prize winner Wolfgang Tillmans. The album got a four star review in Metro. In February 2012, a remix collection entitled Hollywood Cuts was released.

2012 saw the release of a series of collaborations including "Make Me Feel" on Terranova's Hotel Amour album, and "Hyper Lust" on the new album from Motor. In September, Martin released a limited edition DVD entitled Five Takes (A Song About Andy), featuring five movies inspired by Andy Warhol‘s Screen Tests. The song "On Borrowed Time" is presented in five unique takes, with music by electronic producer and soul singer, Waterson.

On February 3, 2023, it was announced via Mary Wilson's Facebook page that Soul Defender, written by Martin, would be released on March 3, 2023, which would have been Wilson's 79th birthday.

Discography

 * Deadline for My Memories (1996)
 * Recycled Garbage (2002)
 * BRM New Demos (2003)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Billie Ray Martin


text:
Talk:Lists of mathematics topics

Untitled
Archives: Talk:Lists of mathematics topics/Archive 2004-2005

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

no consensus to move; the other pages listed below by the Transhumanist will be returned to article space. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:18, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

 * It seems, after reading the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Contents, that the broad consensus is that this should not be in article space. Therefore, I will change my mind and close this as a move as request. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:53, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Lists of mathematics topics → Portal:Mathematics/Lists — There are some previous discussions on where to move this page in the talk page archive, but that was apparently before considering a move to portal namespace (I'm not even sure that namespace existed at the time). Then there was a move without apparent discussion in 2006:. Compare ongoing discussion at Wikipedia talk:Lists. I think Portal namespace suits very well here, per the description at namespace: "The portal namespace (prefix Portal:) is for reader-oriented portals that help readers find and browse through articles related to a specific subject. It also may contain links to encourage readers to contribute to relevant WikiProjects". Note also that the current page name (in plural) is not consistent with WP:NC —Francis Schonken 00:31, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

 * Move (nominator) --Francis Schonken 00:32, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Question What would be the affect on the fact that this is a Featured List? Michael Hardy 01:55, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep -- Lists of lists are articles. See Lists and Lists (stand-alone lists).  The decision to make them into portal subpages shouldn't be attempted one list at a time.  This is an issue that concerns the whole class of pages known as "lists of lists", and it should be discussed at a wider forum.  Many issues need to be discussed concerning these lists (there are more than 80 lists of lists), such as:
 * No searches - Wikipedia's default search box settings do not include portal space. Lists of lists would no longer show up in the search results of most users' searches.  Lists of lists, which are essential navigation aids, would be partially buried.  They'd still support navigation via browsing, but not navigation via search.
 * Cross-namespace link conflicts - many editors are unclear on the guidelines concerning cross-namespace links, and such links are subject to being deleted because of this. Moving lists of lists would require that the links to these pages be checked periodically to make sure they haven't been removed.
 * No longer part of the main encyclopedia - many mirrors and forks don't include portal pages - so these lists wouldn't be part of the main encyclopedia anymore, as they would no longer be considered articles.
 * As portal subpages, would they still be eligible for featured status? - they'd be part of the portals they are subpages of, which are covered by featured portals. This could lead to confusion and conflict.  Could portal subpages attain featured status independently of the portals they belonged to?  My guess would be "no".
 * Moving lists of lists out of the namespace they support is a bad idea. This is a policy or guideline concern, and belongs at the village pump.  The Transhumanist 19:36, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Comment - this appears to be an extension of the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Contents concerning the 4 pages "Portal:Lists of basic topics", "Portal:Lists of topics", "Portal:List of overviews", and "Portal:List of glossaries" (all of which are lists of lists). Note that Francis Schonken boldly moved those lists to portal space without prior discussion, citing that they defied WP:ASR, but he misinterpretted that guideline.  For them to be moved back to the main namespace would require an admin.  The Transhumanist 20:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus at all was reached on this move. This is bogus.
There was no consensus at all for this move. The cited page on which the consensus was reached did not reach a consensus. And I didn't recognize even one name among those who commented there. HUNDREDS of daily Wikipedia editors have each edited HUNDREDS or (in my case and that of many others) THOUSANDS of mathematics articles, and they didn't participate in the discussion. We should broadly canvas to solicit opinions of those hundreds of mathematicians who edit here. Michael Hardy (talk) 04:15, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Just so this won't be misleading: that other page on which it is claimed that a "broad consensus" was reached mentioned this issue only twice, tangentially. I'm not sure it ever mentioned this page specifically.  WikiProject Mathematics was notified of the discussion on this page, but not of the other one.  Participants in WikiProject Mathematics did not participate here when it seemed unnecessary. Michael Hardy (talk) 06:43, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

 * As Francis notes, he made an effort to solicit opinions, and the requested move has been open for some time. There has been a discussion ongoing at Wikipedia talk:Contents to work out where this sort of list belongs. If you feel so strongly about this issue, you should obviously request that the other lists mentioned by the Transhumanist get moved back to article space. This was, and is, the right venue to get moves you dislike overturned. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:54, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

This is a situation I'd have preferred not to have: the closing admin / uninvolved party interpreting and taking a decision, and then have that decision overturned by an involved party.

Note that yesterday I still invited mathematics people to join:
 * Portal_talk:Mathematics
 * Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Mathematics

Michael, you had all opportunity to express your opinion on the move, instead, above you asked a question (BTW in the "" section, while questions are more appropriate in the section). If you had expressed your opinion on the move, the page probably wouldn't have been moved as it was a close call according to the closing admin. Then after the move has been performed it appears you suddenly come forward with an opinion on the move, and you enforce it by overturning the decision of the closing admin. Leaving us with a closed poll and a closing rationale (given by the closing admin) that doesn't match the position of the page.

The proper thing for you to do would have been initiating a new WP:RM in the other direction if you thought more people could have joined.

I'll mention the contentious move at WP:RM. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:59, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

 * There was no consensus for a move on this page, and the discussion was properly closed with a "no consensus" notice. I did not overturn the decision of the closing admin; what I did leaves intact the "no consensus" outcome.  The proper thing for the closing admin to have done if he wanted to change his mind later would be to start a WP:RM. Michael Hardy (talk) 14:45, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I would add that there's nothing resembling a "broad consensus" at that other page either. Michael Hardy (talk) 15:15, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

This article doesn't pass WP:VER
This article doesn't have sources for obvious reasons. The listed items are Wikipedia constructs, and while that is allowed under the guideline WP:SRTA, it causes a collision with Wikipedia's mandatory sourcing requirements in the policy WP:VER.

Should an exception to WP:VER be made here?

Does WP:IAR apply here?

The Transhumanist 22:19, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

 * I don't think it's a self-reference as such. A self-reference might be "Wikipedia's table of contents", which would not make sense if the content were forked.  This article is essentially, "This section's table of contents" which is on par in my mind with Wikipedia categories.
 * I have no problem with invoking WP:IAR, but I don't even think it's needed here. CRGreathouse (t | c) 23:35, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

 * What would you like to verify? — Carl (CBM · talk) 23:48, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Every listed item. See Lists.  Or alternatively, establish an exception for this kind of list.  The Transhumanist (talk) 12:08, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Would you support such an exception? Phil Sandifer (talk) 15:26, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Michael Hardy seems to be onto a solution at WP:FLRC. The Transhumanist (talk) 12:08, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

 * Do you also see a verifiability problem with the article List of '2007 in' articles? --Lambiam 01:02, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * No, that's essentially a disambiguation page. The Transhumanist (talk) 11:52, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

 * This list is obviously a useful navigational tool. I don't care whether it is a featured list or not (what difference does that make to anything ?) unless this is a first step towards an AFD nomination. Is it ? Gandalf61 (talk) 12:48, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

The ability to verify this "page" is of dubious utility as it is not an article. Not many readers are likely to want to check that that a list they are interested in has been perfectly described in the section title and the short section intro. Is that logic a case of WP:IAR?; good heavens no -- its simply that this is a list of lists - its a meta-meta page - I havent seen guidelines for those yet. for example, Lists of people doesnt have cites either. Feel free to write a guideline, as there are a lot of "Lists of " pages, and I have never seen a ref on any of them, and I would vehemently oppose them having a ref. John Vandenberg (talk) 14:49, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Another move proposal
A proposal currently on WP:RM would move this list back to the portal namespace, see Wikipedia talk:Move navigational lists to portal namespace. Andrewa (talk) 03:45, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Proposed changes to this List
At the moment, this article divides Fields of mathematics into 3 subdivisions: Basic, Advanced and Applied. This makes no sense. It would make more sense to divide the advanced section into Pure and Applied, however I favour removing the applied tag altogether. To quote from the article on applied mathematics:

"There is no consensus of what the various branches of applied mathematics are. Such categorizations are made difficult by the way mathematics and science change over time, and also by the way universities organize departments, courses, and degrees."

If there is to be an applied section then differential equations should definitely go in it, and so should discrete mathematics. However I don't think there should be such a section. The List of topics could be arranged so that it starts with the more pure-ish topics and then moves down the list to more applied-ish topics, but there shouldn't be any hard dividing line. Delaszk (talk) 10:49, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Although this subdivision has been stable since it was introduced on June 9, 2005, I agree that contrasting Advanced with Applied does not make eminent sense. I don't think, though, that the best solution is to abolish the category Applied. The main point of having these categories is the ease of navigation. Lumping 6 + 7 = 13 fields together makes navigation harder. I favour instead changing Advanced to Pure. While there may be no consensus for all fields where they belong, I think most mathematicians, if asked to classify these 13 fields as either pure or applied, would reproduce the exact same subdivision. I don't agree that Discrete mathematics should go under Applied. The categorization of partial differential equations is indeed problematic; it is a bit curious that List of nonlinear partial differential equations is put under "Calculus and analysis", but List of partial differential equation topics under "Dynamical systems". --Lambiam 23:15, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

 * OK agreed, pure and applied headings are a useful navigational aid.

Here's a quote from Dynamical systems

"The differential equations determining the evolution function Φ t are often ordinary differential equations: in this case the phase space M is a finite dimensional manifold. Many of the concepts in dynamical systems can be extended to infinite-dimensional manifolds—those that are locally Banach spaces—in which case the differential equations are partial differential equations. In the late 20th century the dynamical system perspective to partial differential equations started gaining popularity."

It would thus seem reasonable to move List of nonlinear partial differential equations to the dynamical systems section even though Differential dynamical systems may be an extension of calculus.

I said above that I thought "Discrete mathematics" is applied rather than pure, however "Discrete mathematics" does not seem to be a coherent field. It seems to be just the parts of various fields which are studied in computer science. Most of the fields: Number theory; game theory; logic; information theory; probability; and dynamical systems contain both discrete and continuous parts, and all of them already have their own sections on this Lists page, except for combinatorics. So I think a combinatorics section should be there rather than a discrete section. Delaszk (talk) 15:15, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Discrete mathematics is negatively defined as mathematics not requiring the notion of continuity (but see e.g. Scott continuity, which IMO belongs to the realm of discrete mathematics), and does not form an organic whole – but is still a useful category for navigational purposes. I would also put Set theory and Order theory under Discrete mathematics; I think they are misclassified under Logic. --Lambiam 23:35, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Set theory is not really logic, in the general sense of that word, but it *is* "mathematical logic"; this is established terminology, even if it is not really (wait for it) logical. On the other hand, set theory (except, possibly, for very elementary set theory, such as Venn diagrams and so on) is not standardly characterized as discrete math. I do agree that order theory doesn't belong under logic, but I'm not so sure it goes under discrete math either. --Trovatore (talk) 00:02, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Discrete mathematics isn't so much a topic as a way of looking at mathematics. Since it is everything that isn't analysis, it includes parts of just about every area of mathematics.

I've just realized that Discrete mathematics is listed under areas of basic mathematics. I think it's fine there.

Looking to the Areas of mathematics article for inspiration, perhaps the Logic section should be renamed Foundations and then logic and set theory would be fine there and proof theory and model theory could be added. Order theory could be put under algebra or given its own section. Delaszk (talk) 16:46, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

list of math history and math philosphy journals
It may be helpful to develop one. Tkuvho (talk) 12:20, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Discussion on organization
There is a thread here about whether Lists of mathematics articles should redirect here. Let's consolidate the discussion on that other page. — Carl (CBM · talk) 17:49, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

We can help by making inconsistent?
Wonder what was meant here, don't want to change unless original editor lets us know what he/she was trying to say.Pdecalculus (talk) 18:44, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I think it's meant as a tongue-in-cheek reference to Gödel's first incompleteness theorem. DilumA (talk) 04:24, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
 * It's a good joke, but I'm not sure it should be presented to readers. I've commented it out, for the moment.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 20:12, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
 * And I've removed it. - dcljr (talk) 21:25, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Lists of mathematics topics


text:
Neopets Trading Card Game

The 'Neopets TCG' is an out-of-print collectible card game and a spin-off of the popular virtual pet browser game, Neopets. The game was launched in 2003 and produced by Wizards of the Coast, a large trading card company that produces a variety of other trading card games. Neopets is aimed at a slightly younger audience than other Wizards of the Coast offerings such as Magic: The Gathering. As with many other trading card games, the cards serve two purposes, collecting and playing a game.

The card game was discontinued in 2006.

Gameplay overview
Neopets TCG is a two-player game, where each player has a play deck of at least 40 cards and a separate deck of at least 10 Basic Neopets. Most deck-building articles suggest a limit of 2-3 species for the Basic Neopets, along with a minimum of 20 Item and/or Equipment cards (essentially half of the deck). Each card may have only 3 copies included. Players start with a single Neopet on the first turn, moving up to three by the third turn. These Neopets compete against opposing Neopets in four different arenas: Strength, Agility, Intelligence, and Magic. Winning a competition during a player's own turn allows the player to bank or draw a card; banking enough cards of sufficient value eventually leads to victory.

Types of cards
The various Neopets cards are divided into categories that affect gameplay in different ways. The different card types are as follows:

 * Basic Neopet
 * Experienced Neopet
 * Item
 * Equipment
 * Hero
 * Villain
 * Something Has Happened!
 * Location
 * Fate (Curse and Quest)
 * Constellation

Basic Neopet (Yellow)
The Basic Neopet cards are the foundation of the game, and are based on the creatures from the Neopets website. The cards list four abilities or attributes, which are: strength, agility, intelligence, and magic. Each of these is given a value, with a higher number denoting a greater power or skill in a given category. Basic Neopets never have a printed score higher than 10, or lower than 1.

Experienced Neopet (Grey)
The Experienced Neopet is much like an evolved Pokémon in the Pokémon Trading Card Game. An Experienced Neopet has higher attributes, and often has helpful special abilities that influence various part of the game. The Experienced Neopet cards consist of both a Neopet species and an occupation, e.g. Jubjub Engineer. Only Neopets of the matching base species can transform into the Experienced Neopet role, so, for example, only a Jubjub could turn into a Jubjub Engineer, while a Mynci could not.

Hero & Villain (White, and Black)
Villain cards and Hero cards both have extremely high ability numbers, and are designed to oppose one another. If a villain is played, the arena in which the villain is located is effectively sealed off until the villain is confronted and beaten, until which point the players cannot start contests against their opponent in that arena, only the villain. A Hero card can be used to fight a difficult battle (often against a villain), but can be used only once before being discarded.

Item & Equipment (Red, and Blue)
Item and Equipment cards increase a Neopet's abilities, by adding points onto the printed base number in one or more categories, and frequently have special abilities that affect gameplay. Whereas Items can only be used once before being discarded, Equipment is attached to the Neopet and remains there until it is removed by another card. The advantage to Items is that they can be sprung upon an opponent unexpectedly.

Item and Equipment cards are also the only cards worth points, ranging from 0 to 8. A player must "bank" 21 points worth of Items and Equipment cards in order to win the game.

Something Has Happened! (Purple)
Something Has Happened! cards cause a one-time, instantaneous event or effect to occur. These cards often are used to influence the outcome of a battle, and are then discarded. Because one can discover that "Something has Happened!" at virtually any time, such cards can introduce a heavy element of surprise.

Location (Green)
Location cards can be played in one area to affect all future battles taking place there (until they get replaced by another Location). The Location can give an advantage to a certain kind of Neopet, or can cause some side effect to any battles occurring there. Location cards are typically based upon the fantasy locations of the Neopets website.

Fate (Orange)
Fate cards are divided into two sub-categories: Curse and Quest. Curses are usually placed on a Neopet belonging to the opponent, and have a negative or detrimental effect on that Neopet. Because Curse cards typically remain in play, they can cripple a given Neopet's ability to perform effectively. Quest cards affect all parts of the game, and are (usually) neutral.

Constellation (Dark Blue)
Constellation cards represent constellations in the sky which impact play in some way. For example, a given Constellation might confer an additional power to the Neopets in play, or otherwise might change the game in some fashion. Wizards of the Coast has not given any official rules regarding how constellation cards are to be played in the game, but popular rule sets online (most notably in player-created "guilds" on the Neopets website) considered them similar to Magic's enchantments and thus keep them in play when they are played.

Expansions
The Neopets Trading Card Game has seen a series of expansions, with each release including new cards and in many cases, new categories of cards. Only three Neopets species did not make it into the TCG, as produced by Wizards of the Coast: Gnorbu, Ogrin, and Xweetok. Checklists can be accessed if players have a Neopets user account.

Base set
The first Neopets card set was simply an introductory 234-card set, with no prevailing theme whatsoever. This set introduced the card types Basic Neopet, Experienced Neopet, Hero, Villain, Item, Equipment, and "Something Has Happened!". The Basic Neopet types that were introduced were Aishas, Korbats, Myncis, Scorchios, Shoyrus, Kacheeks, Acaras, Lupes, Wockies, Poogles, Eyries, and Grarrls.

Battle For Meridell
This expansion's release was coordinated with an online plot/war, which was set in the virtual feudal-themed land of Meridell. Thus, the 140 cards in this set were designed with a Middle Ages-like style. This expansion introduced ten new species of Neopets, (Basic Type: Blumaroo, Draik, Gelert, Ixi, Meerca, Quiggle, Skeith, Uni, Usul, and Zafara) in addition to the Location card type.

The Return of Dr. Sloth
Intending to be tied into an online plot, this set was released in 2004 & the online tie-in was delayed until early 2008 due to workload. This set totaled 100 cards. This expansion's theme was space, providing players with futuristic and robotic items and equipment. Six new Neopet species made their debut in this expansion (Basic Type: Cybunny, Grundo, Jetsam, Jubjub, and Kougra).

Mystery Island
Based upon a tropical island locale, this 100-card expansion provided no new card types, but did introduce four new Neopet species, including the Pteri and Techo (other Basic Type: Krawk and Peophin). The related plot was the Secret of the Volcano mystery plot in Fall 2003, but the plot and the expansion were not released together.

Hannah and the Ice Caves
Revolving around a central popular game character known as Hannah the Usul, a substantial plot was released on the Neopets website along with this 150-card set; it was also the first set to have "secret" cards (5 Jelly cards 151/150-Jelly Poogle, 152/150-Jelly Shoyru, 153/150-Jelly World, 154/150-Jelly Puppyblew, and 155/150-Orange Jelly). The locale for this expansion, released in October 2004, was a wintry, icy environment. A game is also based upon the plot of this expansion of the same name, and is currently online at the Neopets website. This expansion introduced the Basic Neopets known as the Bori, and the Bruce (other Basic Type: Elephante, Flotsam, Kyrii, and Moehog). One new card type was released: Fates.

Curse of Maraqua
This 120-card expansion revolved around the underwater city of Maraqua, which was rebuilt during the plot of the same name on the Neopets website. Four new Neopet species were released with this set, including the Yurble (other Basic Type: Chomby, Lenny, and Tuskaninny).

Lost Desert
This 100-card expansion took players to the shifting sands of the Lost Desert. Basic Neopets released in this expansion are the Ruki, the Kau, and the Tonu. Site-wise, there was a plot and war revolving around this expansion.

The Darkest Faerie
This 150-card expansion (with 5 secret cards) featured several cards relating to the PlayStation 2 game, including several familiar characters from previous sets. The most notable of these were the Darkest Faerie, the Dark Faerie Sisters, and the Werelupe King. This expansion also introduced another new type of card, the Constellation (Basic Type: Buzz, Koi, and Nimmo). Oddly, this expansion was absent of any Fates.

Secret cards: 151- Amulet of Thilg, 152- Bewitched Ring, 153- Fyora, Tower Guardian, 154- The Hidden Tower, 155- Wand of Ultanova.

Travels in Neopia
This Neopets card expansion is actually a re-packaging of 200 cards from previous card sets. This includes favorite cards, as well as Neopets from each and every known Neopet species; 3 exceptions from the list of 54- Gnorbu, Ogrin, and Xweetok (introduced Basic Type: Hissi, Kiko, and Lutari). Only one color for each Basic species was included. The general theme of this set is about encouraging fans to re-live past plots, or, for those new to Neopets, catch up to them with some of the more well-known aspects of the series. There was barely any publicity at all related to this expansion.

The Haunted Woods
The newest expansion, featuring 100 cards with a spooky theme. Cards are related to ghosts, werewolves, and zombies, among others. This deck is associated with the plot, Tale of Woe; where a village has fallen under a curse, and only the Neopets can determine what happened to the townsfolk. There are no new Basic Type cards, although they did fill out the basic 4 colors for the Lenny and Tonu. Special color versions are included for Acara, Aisha, Cybunny, and Korbat. As with previous recent releases, this release appears to be been done with a minimum amount of publicity. This is the last expansion produced by Wizards of the Coast.

Hubrid's Hero Heist
A game was created to tie in with the TCG, and it was named Hubrid's Hero Heist. It features several Neopian heroes being captured by Hubrid Nox and the player, as the Poogle Apprentice, is tasked to save these heroes. The heroes which the player saves are, in order of saving, Magnus the Torch, Jeran, Master Vex, Illusen, Jerdana, and finally, Fyora the Faerie Queen.

title: Neopets Trading Card Game


text:
Alkaline Trio (album)

Alkaline Trio is a compilation album by American punk rock band of the same name, released April 18, 2000 through Asian Man Records. It includes all of the tracks from their EPs For Your Lungs Only (1998) and I Lied My Face Off (1999), as well as both tracks from the "Sundials" single (1997) and several tracks from other compilations.

Reception
By August 2008, the album sold 85,000 copies. Ari Wiznitzer of Allmusic praised the compilation, comparing the songs' lyrics to those of Blake Schwarzenbach and saying that "What separates this record from most compilations of its kind is both consistency and excellent sequencing. This is the band's best batch of songs since Goddamnit, and although taken from disparate sources, the record has the feel of a long-player."

Personnel

 * Matt Skiba – guitar, lead vocals (except tracks 2 and 4), backing vocals
 * Dan Andriano – bass, backing vocals (tracks 1–10), lead vocals (tracks 2 and 4)
 * Rob Doran – bass (tracks 11–13)
 * Glenn Porter – drums

title: Alkaline Trio (album)