text:
Talk:Saxby Chambliss

Conservative Censorship
Seems that some people just can't bear to have the truth written plainly. That is a kind of cowardice. How ironic given the topic! 7 Jan. 05

Anti-Chambliss bias
This article is cleary anti- its subject, it repeats numerous charges from the Atlanta Journal-Constitution editorial pages. Ellsworth 22:22, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hit piece, hit piece, hit piece, hit piece, hit piece, hit piece, HIT PIECE!!! Typlical biased article on a Republican politician on Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.155.134.217 (talk) 23:27, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You could point out specific parts of the article that you feel are in some way biased against the subject rather than vaguely claiming a vast conspiracy against Republican politicians. Qqqqqq (talk) 23:36, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

The section, "Early life, education, and family," which begins the body of this article, devotes one of it four paragraphs to detailing the deferments that Chambliss received during the Vietnam War. This is not biography; this is a mugging. Later, the same matter is emphasized in the discussion of his controversial 2002 Senate campaign.

One substantial section is adequate for the discussion of Chambliss' non-participation in the Vietnam War. It does not belong in the early life biography section. Nor does it need to be discussed twice in a relatively short article. This is so obvious that I feel no need to invite differing opinions and am deleting the offending paragraph in section 1. Anybody who wants it in can put it back and explain their justification for trying to use the article as a piece of political propaganda.

Ed-Claude (talk) 23:44, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

The final paragraph in the Early life/education/family section that discusses his lobbyist son is also objectionable. If that is a substantial controversy, it needs to be treated toward the bottom of the article in a section concerning controversies or criticisms. As I found the article, two of the four paragraphs in the early life/education/family section looked like they were written by a prosecutor. A complete disgrace, objectivity-wise. I've left this paragraph for now as there is so much wrong with this article. But it needs attention.

Ed-Claude (talk) 00:06, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Bo Chambliss
This does not appear to be encyclopedic in nature. Its sole purpose appears to be to suggest a conflict of interest, when the article states that a policy exists to prevent conflicts of interest. OKSooners (talk) 02:02, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that the wording could be tweaked, particularly the part about "falls directly under...", and in general this section could be phrased in a more neutral manner, but I don't think I agree that these facts should be completely removed from the article. Qqqqqq (talk) 02:16, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Recreational Runner
I am sorry, but this is comment is the most blatant biased comment I have EVER seen on this great site... isn't it just so convenient to put that "recreational runner" comment right after a comment about having bad knees.

Any source that backs that up is probably not impartial. Maybe Mr. Chambliss had knee surgery sometime between now and the Vietnam era? There are a whole lot of maybes that could have happened. Chances are the person who put that in the article has sour grapes over Mr. Chambliss's 2002 election vs. Max Cleland.

Also, the comment about Mr. Chambliss lauding free markets while taking government money is probably not credible also...

 * He is a recreational runner. He did receive a draft deferment for his bad knees.  These are FACTS, not points of view.69.180.49.229 00:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)Faveuncle

At least he still has knees. Unlike Max Cleland. AuntFlo (talk) 16:08, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Anti-Chambliss Links
I would also argue that the bottom two links posted on the Chambliss site are by non-credible sources who don't have an unbiased opinion on Mr. Chambliss...

 * Opensecrets.org just uses Federal Election Commission documents as its source-it's unbiased. As for the article, there's no problem with such links, as long as they're accurately labeled, as this one currently is. [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 01:28, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up, sir.

Zepp007

I don't think the content of links has to be NPOV. I'd be cool if someone posted to a lauditory article from somewhere like National Review. Gamaliel 05:13, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

NPOV Tag
I felt it was neccesary to put the NPOV tag on this article because of the blatent bias of the author (or subsequent editors) against Sen. Chambliss. While people have the right to disagree with Sen. Chambliss, insulting him and violating the Neutral Point of View Policy of Wikipedia will not make people join their cause. --nkrosse 20:56, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)

 * Please identify specific problems within the article so we can address them. Gamaliel 22:49, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

My removal, possibly related to the tag above
I've removed

 * However, today he is a recreational runner.

 * While lauding free markets rhetorically, Chambliss depends on campaign contributions from industries whose profitability requires government spending and regulation to limit market competition: agri-business, defense and insurance.

 * Chambliss' recent message to constituents about the first second term state of the union message from George W. Bush pointedly avoided reference to the War in Iraq.

This stuff is extremely POV, to say the least. Perhaps the tag could be removed now? If this material goes back in, it should be heavily reworked for neutrality. Meelar (talk) 23:07, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)

 * Thank you for removing the biased portions of the article, Meelar. I have removed the NPOV tag.--nkrosse 23:36, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)

Npov? and quotes
"During a November 19, 2001 meeting with emergency responders in Valdosta, Georgia, Chambliss remarked that they should "turn the sheriff loose and arrest every Muslim that crosses the state line". Chambliss was criticized for the remarks after they were reported by the Valdosta Daily Times. Chambliss denied reports that he and the sheriff attempted to coerce the paper's reporter to prevent reporting of the remarks. Chambliss apologized and claimed his remarks were taken "out of context"." I have two problems with this section it seems to violate the npov since it is just stuck in the artical with out other sections about his other positions and statements that were not controversial. The other thing is should quotes not be placed in wikiquote?

 * Quotes don't necessarily belong in Wikiquote, if they're used in an encyclopedic context, as this one was. However, google doesn't seem to indicate it made a major splash--certainly not enough to get a whole paragraph equivalent in length to his election to the Senate. I've removed the Valdosta paragraph--if some kind of larger context or significance for the material were given, I might reconsider. Best wishes, Meelar (talk) 22:54, September 1, 2005

(UTC)

Thanks that was quick --Soliscjw 23:09, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

It's stuck in the middle because I placed it where it fit chronologically. This was a reported news item, it is sourced (Valdosta daily times), I don't see the problem here. Gamaliel 00:11, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

 * It just didn't seem that notable in the context of Chambliss' career. Small number of google hits, only 4 hits for +Chambliss +Valdosta in Google News. Why spend so much time on it in the article, it seems to me--it doesn't appear to be an especially significant incident. I've left the paragraph in, but I am adding an NPOV dispute header until we can reach some sort of consensus. Cheers, Meelar (talk) 00:37, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

The incident happened in 2001, which predates Google News itself, nevermind that GN only searches the last 30 days of news. Gamaliel 01:16, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Forgive me, it was quite late. I'll do a Lexis search. Bear in mind that the low general google count still stands. Compare 'Chambliss Cleland' (~26,000) to 'Chambliss Valdosta' (~870). Yet right now they receive the same prominence in the article. Best, Meelar (talk) 07:08, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * UPDATE:A Lexis-Nexis search of Georgia news sources gets me 6 articles containing "Chambliss AND (Valdosta OR Muslim)" from November 2001 to January 2002. This still isn't looking prominent to me. Meelar (talk) 07:11, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

 * Seeing no objections, I'll remove the phrasing from the article. Feel free to note here if you disagree--I'm still watching the page. Best wishes, Meelar (talk) 00:02, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

Given the concerns about the size of the section, I've whittled it down as much as I thought I could. Gamaliel 02:52, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Yeah, but cutting out his response to the allegations makes it even less neutral. I just don't think they belong in the article. Meelar (talk) 16:03, September 8, 2005 (UTC)

 * That wasn't my intent. The apology + "out of context" claim is pretty much a standard response when this sort of thing happens, I didn't see any harm in cutting it. Gamaliel 17:37, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

 * OK. I'm still not quite satisfied; I'll do some reading and try to think of a better way to incorporate this, but until then, it can stay as-is. Good luck with editing. Sorry for the light posting lately, school just started in earnest, as well as my job; weekends are my friend. Anyway, best wishes, Meelar (talk) 06:55, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

POV pushing in this article
This article is an absolute disgrace. While I agree that some of the negative aspects of Mr. Chambliss's campaign and career may indeed belong, the entire article is in need of serious revision and an objective viewpoint. Can we work out a consensus on how this is to be done? I edited "questioned his patriotism" (not true, I have seen the add MANY times and have spoken with two of the people who created it). It is much more accurate to say "questioned his commitment to homeland security." Giles22

For example, the following paragraph has been added:

 * On October 26, 2005, he defended the defeat of a proposal to the fiscal year 2006 Labor, HHS and Education spending bill (HR 3010) that would have transferred $60 million into the AIDS Drug Assistance Program (ADAP). ADAPs are federal- and state-funded programs that provide HIV/AIDS-related medications to low-income, uninsured and underinsured HIV-positive individuals. Instead, the money will be put towards a Japanese garden and a stream on the CDC's agency's Atlanta campus. He stated "I guess what we've got out there is a gazebo of some sort that must have a Japanese tinge to it... It looked like a nice place where employees could go out in the open air and have lunch" (CQ Today, 10/26/2005).

 * This section clearly needs to be rewritten if it is to be included. It is simply not accurate and misleads the reader into thinking the money was transferred from an AIDS drug assistance program into a Japanese Garden at the CDC.  This is not factually accurate.  The funds were originally tagged for renovations and building construction at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), the Japanese Garden was an incidental and very small part of this construction.  Tom Coburn, a Republican Senator from Oklahoma, put forth a bill in the Senate that the funds be transferred to the AIDS drug assistance program.  This bill was defeated in a bipartisan effort of Congress 84-14.  Chambliss's comments are peripheral and irrelevant to this bill's passage.  Giles22 November 2005

We are talking about Saxby Chambliss - it's hard to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Seriously - what does this guy have going for him? I am asking this question on the discussion page - there are any number of mediocrities on wikipedia any more, and their place in history often ends up obscured by sophistry and sycophants. Here in the case of Saxby we have quite an underwhelming political figure - what does he stand for? I think at least on these discussions pages we should begin to look at what will be remembered about these folks say 3 or 4 decades from now....168.8.249.93 20:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)Faveuncle

Anti-Cleland ads
If Chambliss is remembered for anything in 100 years, it will be for his campaign against Senator Cleland. It is important that it be included in the article, in lieu of the pablum. Is anyone questioning the FACT that Chambliss's advertising against Cleland questioned Cleland's commitment to national security; the FACT that Cleland lost 3 limbs while serving in Vietnam, the FACT that Chambliss did not serve in the military? This is a discussion page, a person's place in history and the historical issues around his/her life need to be discussed here. Is there anything else that Chambliss has done that he will be remembered for, other than be elected US Senator?69.180.49.229 00:55, 3 December 2006 (UTC)Faveuncle

 * Those three FACTs are already in the article, yes? John Broughton  |  Talk 02:43, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

 * The way the facts is mentioned matters. This guy is really a unknow without those terrible ads. Those ads are the only reason most people know about this guy. So those ads should have lot more prominence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.236.153.81 (talk) 22:57, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

If Ann Coulter is to be believed, in her article Teaching Democrats New Tricks, the left's claim that Sen. Saxby Chambliss ran an ad challenging Max Cleland's patriotism in the 2002 Senate campaign is 'Another Stalinesque classic … the ad … does not challenge Cleland's patriotism. [It] begins by noting that America is facing "terrorists and extremist dictators" -- briefly showing pictures of them -- and goes on to say that although Cleland said he "supports Bush at every opportunity," in fact he had voted against "the president's vital Homeland security efforts 11 times." …as I noted in "How to Talk to a Liberal (If You Must)," Cleland voted against the establishment of a Homeland Security Department ... because it didn't allow for unionization of the work force: OH MY GOD! THERE'S A PLANE HEADED FOR THE WHITE HOUSE! Sorry, I'm on my break. Please call back in two hours. It was a completely legitimate campaign ad -- urgent in fact -- having nothing to do with Cleland's patriotism, but rather addressing his voting record (and, I would add, his sanity).' Asteriks (talk) 20:04, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

 * How typical that Republicans think that bashing one's opponent is a "legitimate campaign ad". What bashing really conveys is that the campaign manager can't think of any positive reason why anybody would vote for his client, as in this case. CharlesTheBold (talk) 18:52, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Pro-Chambliss bias
These two passages appear to have a pro-Chambliss bias: note the use of the words LEADERSHIP, EXPERIENCE, PRESTIGIOUS, STEADFASTLY...as well as LEADING...EXPERT.

"Chambliss’ leadership and experience on the issues of terrorism, homeland security, and intelligence matters while serving in the House earned him an appointment to the prestigious Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, where he steadfastly advocates that our U.S. intelligence community must dramatically improve its information sharing and human intelligence gathering abilities.

Chambliss’ role as the chairman of the House Intelligence Subcommittee on Terrorism and Homeland Security made him one of the leading congressional experts on these issues."

No references are quoted to support the implication that Chambliss has the implied personal virtues. The vagueness of the passage supports the impression of pro-Chambliss bias; for example, what are "intelligence matters"? Would shouting "bin Ladin is a bad person" in public count as "leadership" on "intelligence matters"? Why should the reader believe that the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence is "prestigious"? WHAT "experience" did Chambliss have as a committee chair, in the House, on these "matters"? Being chair of a committee doesn't necessarily make one an "expert". For example, the Democrat Silvestre Reyes, incoming chair of of the House Intelligence Committee, was much less than an expert on el qaida, and hizbullah: http://public.cq.com/public/20061211_homeland.html

Absent supporting clarification, I propose the following revision and condensation:

"Chambliss’ service on committees relevant to homeland security and intelligence while serving in the House led naturally to an appointment to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, where he has repeatedly advocated that our U.S. intelligence community must dramatically improve its information sharing and human intelligence gathering abilities."

--Ewcarson 09:06, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Sounds good to me, though I suggest deleting "naturally". -- John Broughton  (♫♫) 13:07, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Why 'environmental record' heading?
Why is there a full section dedicated to pro-environmental groups' ratings of his voting record? Why is this specific issue discussed in depth and no other area? Why is not appropriate to simply list those organization's ratings in the previous section?

There is nothing extraordinary about his environmental record and this heading is not a standard practice on other senators' pages.

I'll give it a few days in this talk section before I erase it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nhertel (talk • contribs) 20:52, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, I'm deleting it for the abovementioned reasons Nhertel (talk) 00:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Reworked the Political Positions section
I reworked the entire section into two subsections, one for voting and one for issues group ratings. There were no citations for the ratings that were there, and according to what research I could find they were out of date anyway. So I updated them with info for 2007. I tried to pick all the "major" issues, at least where I could find them for 2007 (which I couldn't find for all issues, so if they aren't in the section anymore, that's why). Raven1977 (talk) 22:24, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Imperial sugar story
I'm not sure this is a notable enough issue to be included in the main article. While it's certainly well sourced, I tend to think it would fit better in the article United States Senate election in Georgia, 2008 instead. Thoughts? Raven1977 (talk) 19:54, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Seeing as it was already basically covered in the article mentioned above about the election, and since nobody has replied here, I made a bold move and removed the section from this article. I believe it's really only an issue of state-wide significance, and since it's already in the article about the election, it didn't need to be covered here as well. Feel free to put it back if you disagree or discuss it here further, I'm open to other opinions on the matter. Raven1977 (talk) 21:30, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

High Fructose Corn Syrup
Wasn't it Chambliss who kept upholding the sugar import tariffs in accordance with the wishes of corn and HFCS agrobusiness lobbyists? 86.56.43.113 (talk) 02:52, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

He Won!
Saxby Chambliss defeated Democrat Jim Martin in his re-election bid. Jonathan321 (talk) 02:13, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Saxby Chambliss should be hung drawn and quatered — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.166.60 (talk) 16:28, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Prosecutorial POV in article and partial correction
The first section of this article (Early Life, Education, and Family) contained four paragraphs, two of them highly critical. Whatever the final merits of the substance of the criticisms, I presume that the early life of this gentleman, who was elected to the United States Senate, was not simply a record of shame. But someone who clearly dislikes him has attempted to use Wiki for character assassination. The facts may be true but the selection and emphasis of those facts as presented was not encyclopedic; it was prosecutorial.

Reading the article a few days ago, I removed one of the offending paragraphs concerning his Vietnam deferments. I explained near the top of this talk page in the section entitled "Anti-Chambliss Bias" my specific rationale, including the fact that the paragraph is redundant; there is a whole section discussing this matter later in the article. If someone wants to edit that latter section to assure that no detail is dropped, that is fine with me. But it is completely unacceptable to treat this matter twice in this short article.

An editor named "Hekerui" reverted my change, noting on the history page that my change had been without explanation. The explanation was here at the top of Talk and is still there. I find no Talk entry from "Hekerui."

I have again removed the Vietnam deferments paragraph from the first section. Although chronologically the matter could be discussed there, it is redundant since it is discussed later. IMO, it is also appropriate to look from a high level at how fair the presentation is aside from how true particular facts might be. That is to say, the early life facts should not be cherry picked to paint a harsh portrait of the man. Early Life, etc., is essentially about what a person ~did~, not what he ~didn't do~. His deferments were perfectly legal. The fact that someone is angry that he did not serve in Vietnam does not make that thing that did not happen a huge fact from his early life. His critics obviously feel that he is a hypocrite; the facts are amply laid out later for readers to make that judgment.

As several editors have noted, this article is filled with bias against its subject. Let's just start the cleanup by removing redundant criticism.

Ed-Claude (talk) 02:45, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

 * Let's dial back the broad claims of "character assassination", eh? If you want to work with other editors, it's best not to tar those same editors with a broad brush.

 * I don't see any redundant criticism. I see a plain biographical fact in the early life section, which is appropriately placed.  Merely mentioning this fact is not a criticism. As you noted, it was perfectly legal so a mere mention of this should not bring opprobrium upon the senator.  It would be inappropriate to mention the criticism of this factual, legal act in that section, however, as the criticism was in the context of the Cleland advertisements and did not occur until many years after this point in his biography. Gamaliel (talk) 09:11, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

 * Your "plain biographical fact" is clearly a fact cherry-picked from the man's history for the obvious purpose of supporting the later criticism of his lack of service that became an issue in his 2002 campaign. When someone serves in a war, that becomes a huge fact in his life.  When someone receives legal deferments, then that event(s) is a minor event about a path not taken in life.  In this case, when the Vietnam service issue comes up later in the article, then that is a sufficient point at which to say whatever needs to be said about his deferments.  Chronology notwithstanding, to focus twice in this short article on his lack of Vietnam service is redundant and prosecutorial.  The truth of the fact is no justification for browbeating the man with.  Once is enough.

 * There are four graphs covering all of this man's early life up until he was elected to congress. Two of them contain highly prejudicial information, the deferments graph and the mention of his son's lobbying.  Is that the only thing that his son did? Why is his other child not mentioned?  Well, obviously because there was nothing derogatory to reflect on the senator.  We have a very few facts presented from his early life, and they were obviously selected to present him in an unfavorable light.  Surely there was something positive in his life that suggested to someone that he was a suitable candidate for congress.  But all of that is just to establish the big picture, that this is a very unbalanced article which is not saved from prejudice merely by factual accuracy.

 * Again removing the redundant and prejudicial paragraph concerning his draft deferments. If anyone thinks that important details are lost, I invite them to add those particulars to the other discussion of his lack of Vietnam service.  But just one place is enough.Ed-Claude (talk) 00:55, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

 * It is not cherrypicked, it is merely following the model of most biographical articles regarding people who came of age during that era. The articles on Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, John Bolton, and Dick Cheney all discuss their particular alternatives to military service in Vietnam. And those are just the ones I thought of off the top of my head.

 * If you feel there are other flaws in the early life section, we can work on those. If you feel it doesn't discuss enough of the matters you want discussed, you can work on that.  But the answer isn't deleting perfectly valid information and accusing people of being part of some anti-Chambliss conspiracy. Gamaliel (talk) 04:41, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Religion
The religion in the infobox was changed to "Scientology" by an IP with a history of adding nonsense. It may well be Episcopalian, but this needs a RS.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 11:06, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Anti-gay slur
International news is unfolding about a homophobic slur that was posted by someone at Chabmliss's Atlanta office yesterday: somebody left the message "All faggots must die" on the blog Joe.My.God. Joe Jervis has been interviewed by the New York Times for probable publication September 23. Just a heads up. 75.154.191.176 (talk) 02:55, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

External links modified
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title: Talk:Saxby Chambliss


text:
Baade (crater)

Baade is a lunar impact crater that is located near the southwest limb of the Moon on the near side, to the southwest of the enormous Mare Orientale impact basin. The area to the east of this crater forms the junction between the 280-km-long Vallis Bouvard to the north and the narrower, 160-km-long Vallis Baade to the south-southeast. Both valleys radiate away from the impact basin to the north.

The outer wall of Baade remains sharp-edged, with little appearance of erosion due to subsequent impacts. The rim is generally circular, with some terracing of the inner wall. The crater interior is rough and irregular, with a generally bowl-shaped appearance that lacks a sharply defined floor. There is no central peak at the midpoint of the interior, and no craterlets of note mark the surface.

This crater lies within the Mendel-Rydberg Basin, a 630 km wide impact basin of Nectarian age.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Baade (crater)


text:
Template talk:Christianity sidebar

Rollback proposed
Am I the only one that thinks there's a whole lot of nonsense being added or moved around here lately? I see very little in the last five dozen edits that's an improvement, and none of it was discussed here on the Talk page, or justified in the edit summaries, of which there are none. I'm proposing a rollback to rev. 1042414672 (diff) of 21:53, 4 September by. The current version doesn't have consensus, so one could just as well revert without discussion based on WP:BRD, but I thought I'd poll the regulars to get some feedback first. Mathglot (talk) 08:46, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

 * Agree—probably this is the last good state for the sidebar, but I have only quickly flicked through the changes. If after the rollback wants to discuss here on the Talk Page the purpose of the recent edits would be better understood. I suspect there are very few regulars though. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 10:02, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Agree as well, way too much too quick. Maybe Softwarestatistik can pick three or four of the edits that they think essential and present those as suggestions here. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:09, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Agree strongly Although I am not a "regular", I have noticed these and, personally, I have wanted to make some changes, but have not yet because I have failed to formulate justifications to post here, noting the "Warning: Before changing, adding or removing any links..."; thus, seeing these changes without discussion has bothered me. Now that I look at them, I entirely agree that "very little in the last five dozen edits that's an improvement". Vincent J. Lipsio (talk) 16:03, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment – I've left a talkback-style message at their Talk page; also, if they have notifications turned on in preferences, the two reverts at the template should have alerted them, so let's give them a bit of time to respond. I don't doubt their good faith in making these additions, and their edits raise an important question: going forward, we might want to have a discussion concerning approximately how many links would be appropriate in the sidebar, and how to select them. I've started a discussion about this, at the  section below.  Mathglot (talk) 17:30, 19 October 2021 (UTC)  udpated; by Mathglot (talk) 17:56, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Rolled back to revision 1042414672 as proposed after no further response. User:Softwarestatistik, please hold off making changes until there's a discussion about what kinds of things we wish to include in the template. That could take place in the following section regarding Inclusion criteria, or you could start a new section. Mathglot (talk) 17:00, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Vincent J. Lipsio (talk) 17:36, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Rolled back again. —I am sure there are a number of editors willing to discuss this here, but you need to engage. I make no comment on the edits, this is a matter of manners and process Norfolkbigfish (talk) 19:16, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Now raised this at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Christianity_Side-boxes. Will hold off rolling back again until that case has been action. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:24, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
 * And yet again. (I didn't notice your raising the ANI thread, and just missed an ec here.) Mathglot (talk) 07:27, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Update: Softwarestatistik has been blocked for 24 hours by an admin. Hopefully, this will get their attention, and they'll respond here in the future. Mathglot (talk) 08:50, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Eucharist
, I see you're back, with the addition of Eucharist. It's a sacrament; if it meets with consensus to add it to the sidebar, then for starters, why this one, and not the other six, or just a link to the generic article? As far as whether to add it at all, I'm not sure. Sidebars are by nature usually much briefer than footer nav bars, and cover just the top-level, most important concepts. Eucharist would probably be necessary for a Catholicism sidebar (there doesn't seem to be one). The Catholic Church footer includes "Eucharist" (along with the others) in subgroup "Sacraments", but there are dozens of other links under "Theology" there, and clearly we don't want to import all of that here to the sidebar. Conversely, the Eucharist is not celebrated in every denomination. Let's see what others say (and this time, please respond; you were already blocked once for not doing so). The section above could benefit from your thoughts as well. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 18:29, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

 * This is a navigation so that those who see this article can find the article more easily — Preceding unsigned comment added by Softwarestatistik (talk • contribs) 12:07, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: technical TPO: adjusted indent of comment above, and joined it to the comment in the section above this one to which it is clearly a reply. Mathglot (talk) 18:56, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
 * , first of all, congratulations on your first reply to a Talk discussion. You didn't really address the topic of discussion, though. The reason you gave, "so that those who see this article can find the article more easily" applies to every link on every nav template and sidebar everywhere; it doesn't say why *this* link should be included in *this* one. As mentioned before, there are 70,000 articles about Christianity, and the sidebar can only hold a tiny, tiny fraction of those. So the question for you is, why Eucharist, and not one of the other 70k articles? What makes this link important enough to be linked from here?
 * Secondarily, if there is consensus to include it, this seems like the wrong section of the sidebar.
 * Finally, I can't help noticing that English may not be your native language. If so, no matter; everyone is welcome to contribute here. If you feel like you'd like to leave a longer and more complete reply here on the Talk page but you are uncertain how to say it in English, either use an automatic translator like DeepL or Google translate, or just leave your response here in your language, and someone will convert it for you. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 20:37, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Softwarestatistik (talk • contribs) 00:15, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

International
Hello. The division of Christian denominations between East and West is not international, does not include all continents ( Systemic bias) and gives the impression that denominations from such and such a region (East and West) are present only in such region (East and West). Which is wrong. The most common, inclusive international academic approach of all continents is: Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity and Protestantism. What do you think? --Nathan B2 (talk) 22:31, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

 * Not really my focus @Nathan B2 but you seem to have a point. Seems the history has become confused with the geography, the East West Schism was in the 11th century, before Protestantism and colonialism. I think it is fair to say things have changed since then. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 17:59, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Crusading movement
After much debate Crusades has evolved into a MILHIST article that covers the passagium generale whose objective was the recovery and defence of Jerusalem in the Middle Ages, their legacy and aftermath. Crusading movement describes the development of instituitions of Crusading, described as a movement on the Oxford Illustrated History of the Crusade as well as elsewhere. The wider definition of the latter makes it a better fit for this template, either in addition to the link to the former or as a replacement. This was done under WP:BRD, reverted and now this opens the discussion. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:21, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

 * It's one or the other, not both. Crusades is the primary article, whether mainly "MILHIST" or not. Srnec (talk) 00:35, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Not really sure this is a rationale. Crusades has largely settled its scope on the passagium generale to the Holy Land. Not really sure that the concept of a primary article exists in WP for such a diverse subject—but it is unlikely to fit an article that is a sub-set of an enormous subject—but would stand to be corrected by someone who understood the principles better than me. The two articles are different, and I would argue that an article on the instituition of crusading was a more appropriate fit for this sidebar, although I can see an argument for including both. Maybe it is time for a wider discussion, rather than two editors disagreeing. What do you think? Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:47, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

 * You have been reverted in this exact same edit by (October 2020),  (twice in September 2021) and by,  and  earlier this year. And once by me in 2021. There are two earlier talk page sections that dealt with this. It is wider than two people. Srnec (talk) 17:46, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, @Srnec, although it doesn't seem quite as black and white as you suggest. suggested the format of the edit that you have reverted himself.  has repeatedly reverted to the format of this edit which suggests he didn't object to it but his later edit suggests he has changed his mind. Not one to get overly vexed with now. Good to talk. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:51, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Adding Calvinism under Western Denominations
I propose adding Calvinism under Denominations > Western > Protestant. GuardianH (talk) 08:46, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

 * It could be considered more of a theological tendency than a distinct group... AnonMoos (talk) 09:36, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
 * A theological tendency may mean that Calvinism could transcend certain religious boundaries, but I think that Calvinism is generally distinct from other Protestant branches (such as Lutheranism), and as such would probably best be placed as a separate branch. GuardianH (talk) 09:18, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

New links
Most of the new links added by helper are those concerning homosexuality. For example Christianity and homosexuality and the history of Christianity and homosexuality or LGBT clergy and gay bishop and Homosexual clergy in the Catholic Church and List of Christian denominational positions on homosexuality and The Bible and homosexuality and Queer theology and Christianity and transgender people. This is an overview template and so we don't need two related links for each topic. Otherwise the template will be bloated for no reason. I have tried to trim these links but was reverted. I have given my reason for reverting back here.

Also, terrorism is not a major topic associated with Christianity. I see no reason for its conclusion and will remove it as well. Durziil89 (talk) 15:04, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

 * I agree with User:Durziil89 that the template should be basic in the sense that it should include major topics related to Christianity, (such as the Trinity, Prayer and Creeds). It should not focus on one topic alone, in keeping with the templates of other religious traditions, much like that of Judaism or Islam. That being said, I have restored the de facto denominational list that is a result of teamwork with User:Helper201 and me (with the addition of the Old Catholic Church). I hope this helps. With regards, AnupamTalk 15:41, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, we just need one link to Christian politics and readers can click on that link to find out more. The template doesn't need to list every single Christian political ideology that exists. Durziil89 (talk) 15:44, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

title: Template talk:Christianity sidebar


text: Category:Nigerian politicians

title: Category:Nigerian politicians


text:
São Paulo Railway Company

The São Paulo Railway Company (SPR, nickname Ingleza, transl.: The English ) was a privately owned British railway company in Brazil, which operated the gauge railway from the seaport at Santos via São Paulo to Jundiaí. The company was nationalised in 1946 and became the Estrada de Ferro Santos-Jundiaí.

The São Paulo Railway consists of three parts:
 * The 20 km long adhesion railway at the coast from Santos to Piaçaguera near Cubatão
 * The 8 km long steep grade from Piaçaguera to Paranapiacaba
 * The adhesion railway on the plateau from Paranapiacaba via São Paulo to Jundiaí

Three different systems were used to climb the steep grade between Piaçaguera and Paranapiacaba:
 * A four section cable railway with stationary steam engines, in use from 1867 till 1970, called Serra Velha, transl.: Old Mountain
 * A five section cable railway with stationary steam engines, in use from 1901 till 1982, called Serra Nova, transl.: New Mountain
 * An electrified rack-and-adhesion railway built on the right of way of the abandoned Serra Velha opened in 1974, called Sistema Cremalheira-Aderência, transl.: System Rack-and-adhesion

Planning
In 1859, a group of people led by the Barão de Mauá convinced the Brazilian government that it was important to construct a railroad connecting São Paulo to the seaport at Santos. The main purpose of the project was the transport of the coffee grown on the inland plateau to the Atlantic coast for export. The biggest difficulty was the task to overcome the steep east slope of the 800-meter high Serra do Mar, which was considered to be nearly impracticable. Therefore, Barão de Mauá asked Britain to clarify the feasibility of a railway line for locomotive hauled trains within a budget limit of 200,000 £. The greatest technician for this subject was consulted: Scottish railroad engineer James Brunlees.

Brunlees visited Brazil and considered that the project was feasible. He recommended engineer Daniel Makinson Fox to Barão de Mauá for the execution of the project. Fox was at that time only 26 years old but had already experience in the construction of railways through the mountains of northern Wales and the hillsides of the Pyrenees. He realised that the railway could only climb the slope in the Serra do Mar if a 5 mi long incline system was built. An adhesion railway would have used 26 mi to overcome the slope and would have also overrun the 200,000 £ budget.

Construction

Daniel Fox's proposal for the railway line from Santos to Jundiaí including the incline system was approved by Brunlees and the São Paulo Railway Company (SPR) was established to build the railway system and operate it for 90 years. Since the capital of the company was mainly British also the official company name was in English, not Portuguese. The railway company contracted with Robert Sharpe & Sons to acquire the land, execute the works and supply all rolling stock and plant.

Construction on the 20 km long adhesion railway Santos – Piaçaguera began on 15 March 1860 and on the incline system in the year 1861.

The road was constructed without explosives since it was felt that the slopes were very unstable. The rock was excavated only with plug and feathers. Embankments of 3 to 20 m in height were constructed to protect the tracks from the frequent torrential rains in the area, which used about 230000 m3 rocks. The line did not have any tunnels.

In spite of all the difficulties, the construction finished 10 months ahead of the date specified in the contract, which was eight years. The São Paulo Railway was opened on 1867-02-16.

Serra Velha – the first incline system

The part of the route climbing the Serra do Mar consisted of four 10.3% grade cable railway sections with the following length:
 * section 1: 1781 m
 * section 2: 1947 m
 * section 3: 2096 m
 * section 4: 3139 m

At each section the wagons were attached to a steel wire rope with the help of a specially fitted brake van called Serrabreque (transl.: Hill Brake). The steel cable was driven by a stationary steam winding engine at the top end of the section, where a 75 m extension with a 1.3% grade was also fitted, so that the wagons could be led to the next section.

The incline system was later called Serra Velha (transl.: Old Mountain) to distinguish it from the later built second incline system called Serra Nova.

Serra Nova – the second incline system
The large volume of coffee shipments and the growth of the cities in the São Paulo region required more transport capacity. Therefore, the construction of a second incline system started in 1895. The new line ran parallel to the already existing one in about 2 mi distance. It had five sections using continuous steel wire ropes which were moved by stationary 1000 hp steam engines. Each section was about 2000 m long and had a grade of 8%. Two to three wagons were coupled to the rope with the help of small locomotives fitted with grip engaging with the cable. These locomotives were also able to handle the wagons in the terminal station and between the sections so that the operation of the incline system was facilitated. The locomotives have been called Locobreque (transl.: Brake locomotives). In case the weight of the wagons to be lifted was too heavy compared to the wagons lowered at the same time, tank cars filled with water were used to counterbalance the system. The incline system was used in revenue service till 1982.

Protests
In 1889, the first protests were made against the British monopoly over the route to Porto de Santos, which culminated in the construction of Mairinque–Santos in 1937, by the Estrada de Ferro Sorocabana.

Nationalisation
On 1946-09-13, the railroad was nationalised by the Brazilian government, and renamed the Estrada de Ferro Santos-Jundiaí, and on 1948-09-27, it was merged with most of the other Brazilian railways into the Rede Ferroviária Federal SA (RFFSA).

Sistema Cremalheira-Aderência – the Rack-and-adhesion railway
In the 1970s (well after it had been renamed), the haulage system was replaced by an Abt rack system with a maximum gradient of 10.4 %, which was installed by Japanese firm Marubeni. The locomotives for this changeover were constructed by Hitachi with the help of SLM. They work with 3 kV DC supplied by overhead lines.

Starting from 2012, the original Hitachi locomotives were replaced by seven new-built machines supplied by Stadler.

title: São Paulo Railway Company


text: Category:Nigerian people by occupation

title: Category:Nigerian people by occupation


text:
User:Ilya (usurped)/Grothendieck/RS

it's not conversed from my HTML to Wiki-fromat

=En guise d'Avant-propos…=

30 janvier 1986

Il ne manquait plus que l'avant-propos а йcrire, pour confier Rйcoltes et Semailles а l'imprimeur. Et je jure que j'йtais de la meilleure volontй du monde pour йcrire quelque chose qui fasse l'affaire. Quelque chose de raisonnable , cette fois. Trois quatre pages pas plus, mais bien senties, pour prйsenter cet йnorme pavй de plus de mille pages. Quelque chose qui accroche le lecteur blasй, qui lui fasse entrevoir que dans ces peu rassurantes plus de mille pages, il pourrait y avoir des choses qui l'intйressent (voir mкme, qui le concernent, qui sait?). C'est pas tellement mon style, l'accroche, зa non. Mais lа j'allais faire l'exception, pour une fois! Il fallait bien que l'йditeur assez fou pour courir l'aventure (de publier ce monstre, visiblement impubliable) rentre dans ses frais tant bien que mal.

Et puis non, c'est pas venu. J'ai fait de mon mieux pourtant. Et pas qu'un aprиs-midi, comme je comptais le faire, vite fait. Demain зa fera trois semaines pile que je suis dessus, que les feuilles s'entassent. Ce qui est venu, c'est sыr, n'est pas ce qu'on pourrait dйcemment appeler un avant-propos. C'est encore loupй, dйcidйment! On se refait plus а mon вge — et je suis pas fait pour, pour vendre ou faire vendre. Mкme quand il s'agit de faire plaisir (а soi-mкme, et aux amis…).

Ce qui est venu, c'est une sorte de longue promenade commentйe, а travers mon њuvre de mathйmaticien. Une promenade а l'intention surtout du profane — de celui qui n'a jamais rien compris aux maths. Et а mon intention aussi, qui n'avais jamais pris le loisir d'une telle promenade. De fil en aiguille, je me suis vu amenй а dйgager et а dire des choses qui jusque lа йtaient toujours restйes dans le non-dit. Comme par hasard, ce sont celles aussi que je sens les plus essentielles, dans mon travail et dans non њuvre. C'est des choses qui n'ont rien de technique. A toi de voir si j'ai rйussi dans ma naпve entreprise de les faire passer — une entreprise un peu folle sыrement, elle aussi. Ma satisfaction et mon plaisir, ce serait d'avoir su te les faire sentir. Des choses que beaucoup parmi mes savants collиgues ne savent plus sentir. Peut-кtre sont-ils devenus trop savants et trop prestigieux. Ca fait perdre contact, souvent, avec les choses simples et essentielles.

Au cours de cette  Promenade а travers une oeuvre , je parle un peu de ma vie aussi. Et un petit peu, ici et lа, de quoi il est question dans Rйcoltes et Semailles. J'en reparle encore et de faзon plus dйtaillйe, dans la  Lettre  (datйe de mai l'an dernier) qui suit la Promenade. Cette Lettre йtait destinйe а mes ex-йlиves et а mes amis d'antan dans le monde mathйmatique. Mais elle non plus n'a rien de technique. Elle peut кtre lue sans problиme par tout lecteur qui serait intйressй а apprendre, par un rйcit sur le vif, les tenants et aboutissants qui m’ont finalement amenй а йcrire Rйcoltes et Semailles. Plus encore que la Promenade, зa te donnera aussi un avant-goыt d'une certaine ambiance, dans le grand monde mathйmatique. Et aussi (tout comme la Promenade), de mon style d'expression, un peu spйcial paraоt-il. Et de l'esprit aussi qui s'exprime par ce style — un esprit qui lui non plus n'est pas apprйciй par tout le monde.

Dans la Promenade et un peu partout dans Rйcoltes et Semailles, je parle du travail mathйmatique. C'est un travail que je connais bien et de premiиre main. La plupart des choses que j'en dis sont vraies, sыrement, pour tout travail crйateur, tout travail de dйcouverte. C'est vrai tout au moins pour le travail dit intellectuel, celui qui se fait surtout par la tкte, et en йcrivant. Un tel travail est marquй par l'йclosion et par l'йpanouissement d'une comprйhension des choses que nous sommes en train de sonder. Mais, pour prendre un exemple au bout opposй, la passion d'amour est, elle aussi, pulsion de dйcouverte. Elle nous ouvre а une connaissance dite charnelle, qui elle aussi se renouvelle, s'йpanouit, s'approfondit. Ces deux pulsions — celle qui anime le mathйmaticien au travail, disons, et celle en l'amante ou en l'amant — sont bien plus proches qu'on ne le soupзonne gйnйralement, ou qu'on n'est disposй а se l'admettre. Je souhaite que les pages de Rйcoltes et Semailles puissent contribuer а te le faire sentir, dans ton travail et dans ta vie de tous les jours.

Au cours de la Promenade, il sera surtout question du travail mathйmatique lui-mкme. J'y reste quasiment muet par contre sur le contexte oщ ce travail se place, et sur les motivations qui jouent en dehors du temps de travail proprement dit. Cela risque de donner de ma personne, ou du mathйmaticien ou du scientifique en gйnйral, une image flatteuse certes, mais dйformйe. Genre grande et noble passion, sans correctif d'aucune sorte. Dans la ligne, en somme, du grand Mythe de la Science (avec S majuscule s'il vous plait!). Le mythe hйroпque, promйthйen, dans lequel йcrivains et savants sont tombйs (et continuent а tomber) а qui mieux mieux. Il n'y a guиre que les historiens, peut-кtre, qui y rйsistent parfois, а ce mythe si sйduisant. La vйritй, c'est que dans les motivations du scientifique, qui parfois le poussent а investir sans compter dans son travail, l'ambition et la vanitй jouent un rфle aussi important et quasiment universel, que dans toute autre profession. Зa prend des formes plus ou moins grossiиres, plus ou moins subtiles, suivant l'intйressй. Je ne prйtends nullement y faire exception. La lecture de mon tйmoignage ne laissera, J'espиre, aucun doute а ce sujet.

Il est vrai aussi que l'ambition la plus dйvorante est impuissante а dйcouvrir le moindre йnoncй mathйmatique, ou а le dйmontrer — tout comme elle est impuissante (par exemple) а faire bander (au sens propre du terme). Qu'on soit femme ou homme, ce qui fait bander n'est nullement l'ambition, le dйsir de briller, d'exhiber une puissance, sexuelle en l'occurrence — bien au contraire! Mais c'est la perception aiguл de quelque chose de fort, de trиs rйel et de trиs dйlicat а la fois. On peut l'appeler la beautй, et c'est lа un des mille visages de cette chose-lа. D'кtre ambitieux n'empкche pas forcйment de sentir parfois la beautй d'un кtre, ou d'une chose, d'accord. Mais ce qui est sыr, c'est que ce n'est pas l'ambition qui nous la fait sentir…

L'homme qui, le premier, a dйcouvert et maоtrisй le feu, йtait quelqu'un exactement comme toi et moi. Pas du tout ce qu'on se figure sous le nom de hйros, de demi-dieu et J'en passe. Sыrement, comme toi et comme moi, il a connu la morsure de l'angoisse, et la pommade vaniteuse йprouvйe, qui fait oublier la morsure. Mais au moment oщ il a connu le feu, il n'y avait ni peur, ni vanitй. Telle est la vйritй dans le mythe hйroпque. Le mythe devient insipide, il devient pommade, quand il nous sert а nous cacher un autre aspect des choses, tout aussi rйel et tout aussi essentiel.

Mon propos dans Rйcoltes et Semailles a йtй de parler de l'un et de l'autre aspect — de la pulsion de connaissance, et de la peur et de ses antidotes vaniteux. Je crois comprendre, ou du moins connaоtre la pulsion et sa nature. (Peut-кtre un jour dйcouvrirai-je, йmerveillй, а quel point je me faisais illusion…) Mais pour ce qui est de la peur et de la vanitй, et les insidieux blocages de la crйativitй qui en dйrivent, je sais bien que je n'ai pas йtй au fond de cette grande йnigme. Et j'ignore si je verrai jamais le fond de ce mystиre, pendant les annйes qui ne restent а vivre…

En cours d'йcriture de Rйcoltes et Semailles deux images ont йmergй, pour reprйsenter l'un et l'autre de ces deux aspects de l'aventure humaine. Ce sont l’ enfant (alias l’ ouvrier ), et le Patron. Dans la Promenade qu'on va faire tantфt, c'est de l'enfant qu'il sera question presque exclusivement. C'est lui aussi qui figure dans le sous-titre L‘enfant et la Mиre. Ce nom va s'йclairer, j'espиre, au cours de la promenade.

Dans tout le reste de la rйflexion, c'est le Patron par contre qui prend surtout le devant de la scиne. Il n'est pas patron pour rien! Il serait d'ailleurs plus exact de dire qu'il s'agit non pas d‘un Patron, mais des Patrons d'entreprises concurrentes. Mais il est vrai aussi que tous les Patrons se ressemblent sur l'essentiel. Et quand on commence а parier des Patrons, зa signifie aussi qu'il va y avoir des vilains. Dans la partie I de la rйflexion ( Fatuitй et Renouvellement , qui fait suite а la prйsente partie introductive, ou le  Prйlude en Quatre Mouvements ), c'est surtout moi le vilain. Dans les trois parties suivantes, c'est surtout les autres. Chacun son tour!

C'est dire qu'il y aura, en plus de profondes rйflexions philosophiques et de confessions (nullement contrites), des portraits au vitriol (pour reprendre l'expression d'un de mes collиgues et amis, qui s'est trouvй un peu malmenй…). Sans compter des opйrations de grande envergure et pas piquйes de vers. Robert Jaulin Robert Jaulin est un ami de vieille date. J'ai crы comprendre que vis‑а‑vis de l'establishment du milieu ethnologique, il se trouve dans une situation (de loup blanc ) un peu analogue а la mienne vis‑а‑vis du beau monde mathйmatique. m'a assurй (en blaguant а demi) que dans Rйcoltes et Semailles je faisais l'ethnologie du milieu mathйmatique (ou peut-кtre la sociologie, je ne saurais plus trop dire). On est flattй bien sыr, quand on apprend que (sans mкme le savoir) on fait des choses savantes! C'est un fait qu'au cours de la partie enquкte de la rйflexion (et а mon corps dйfendant…), j'ai vu dйfiler, dans les pages que j'йtais en train d'йcrire, une bonne partie de l'establishment mathйmatique, sans compter nombre de collиgues et d'amis au statut plus modeste. Et ces derniers mois, depuis que j'ai fait les envois du tirage provisoire de Rйcoltes et Semailles, au mois d'octobre dernier, зa a remis зa encore. Dйcidйment, mon tйmoignage est venu comme un pavй dans la mare. Il y a eu des йchos un peu sur tous les tons vraiment (sauf celui de l'ennui…). Presque а chaque coup, c'йtait pas du tout ce а quoi je me serais attendu. Et il y a eu aussi beaucoup de silence, qui en dit long. Visiblement, J'en avais (et il me reste) а en apprendre encore, et de toutes les couleurs, sur ce qui se passe dans la caboche des uns et des autres, parmi mes ex‑йlиves et autres collиgues plus ou moins bien situйs — pardon, sur la sociologie du milieu mathйmatique je voulais dire! A tous ceux venus d'ores et dйjа apporter leur contribution а la grande oeuvre sociologique de mes vieux jours, je tiens а exprimer ici — mкme mes sentiments reconnaissants.

Bien sыr, J'ai йtй particuliиrement sensible aux йchos dans les tonalitйs chaleureuses. Il y a eu aussi quelques rares collиgues qui m'ont fait part d'une йmotion, ou d'un sentiment (restй inexprimй jusqu'alors) de crise, ou de dйgradation а l'intйrieur de ce milieu mathйmatique dont ils se sentent faire partie.

En dehors de ce milieu, parmi les tout premiers а faire un accueil chaleureux, voire йmu, а mon tйmoignage, je voudrais nommer ici Sylvie et Catherine Chevalley, Sylvie et Catherine Chevalley sont la veuve et la fille de Claude Chevalley, le collиgue et ami а qui est dйdiй la partie centrale de Rйcoltes et Semailles ( La Clef du Yin et du Yang ). En plusieurs endroits de la rйflexion, je parle de lui, et du rфle qui fыt le sien dans mon itinйaire. Robert Jaulin, Stйphane Deligeorge, Christian Bourgois. Si Rйcoltes et Semailles va connaоtre une diffusion plus йtendue que celle du tirage provisoire initial (а l'intention d'un cercle des plus restreints), c'est surtout grвce а eux. Grвce, surtout а leur conviction communicative: que ce que je me suis efforcй de saisir et de dire, devait кtre dit. Et que cela pouvait кtre entendu dans un cercle plus large que celui de mes collиgues (souvent maussades, voire hargneux, et nullement disposйs а se remettre en cause…). C'est ainsi que Christian Bourgois n'a pas hйsitй а courir le risque de publier l'impubliable, et Stйphane Deligeorge, de me faire l'honneur d'accueillir mon indigeste tйmoignage dans la collection Epistйmй, aux cфtйs (pour le moment) de Newton, de Cuvier et d'Arago. (Je ne pouvais rкver meilleure compagnie!) A chacune et а chacun, pour leurs marques rйpйtйes de sympathie et de confiance, survenant а un moment particuliиrement sensible, je suis heureux de dire ici toute ma reconnaissance.

Et nous voilа sur le dйpart d’une Promenade а travers une њuvre, comme entrйe en matiиre pour un voyage а travers une vie. Un long voyage, oui, de mille pages et plus, et bien tassйe chacune. J’ai mis une vie а le faire, ce voyage, sans l’avoir йpuisй, et plus d’une annйe а la redйcouvrir, page aprиs page. Les mots parfois ont йtй hйsitants а venir, pour exprimer tout le jus d’une expйrience se dйrobant encore а une comprйhension hйsitante — comme du raisin mыr et dru entassй dans le pressoir semble, par moments, vouloir se dйrober а la force qui l’йtreint… Mais mкme en les moments oщ les mots semblent se bousculer et couler а flots, ce n’est pas au bonheur-la-chance pourtant qu’ils se bousculent et qu’ils coulent. Chacun d’eux a йtй trouvй trop lйger, ou trop lourd. Aussi cette rйflexion-tйmoignage-voyage n’est pas faite pour кtre lue vite fait, en un jour ou en un mois, par un lecteur qui aurait hвte d’en venir au mot de la fin. Il n’y a pas de mot de la fin, pas de conclusions dans Rйcoltes et Semailles, pas plus qu’il n’y en a dans ma vie, ou dans la tienne. Il y a un vin, vieilli pendant une vie dans les fыts et mon кtre. Le dernier verre que tu boiras ne sera pas meilleur que le premier ou que le centiиme. Ils sont tous le mкme, et ils sont tous diffйrents. Et si le premier verre est gвtй, tout le tonneau l’est: autant alors boire de la bonne eau (s’il s’en trouve), plutфt que du mauvais vin.

Mais un bon vin ne se boit pas а la va-vite, ni au pied levй.

title: User:Ilya (usurped)/Grothendieck/RS


text:
Talk:Pon farr

Untitled
The following was contributed at Ponn Farr, and is in some ways the better article--there's probably more that could be merged... In the fictional Star Trek universe, a Vulcan condition that induces the desire to mate in an adult Vulcan. Symptoms generally include a chemical imbalance and loss of logic and emotional control.

Typically, a Vulcan will undergo the Ponn farr every 7 years of their adult life. During this time, one would generate the urge to return to their homeworld to find a mate. However, there are other means of treating the Ponn farr. Besides taking a mate one may challenge to a fight for death.

First appeared in Star Trek "Amok Time" written by Theodore Sturgeon.

QUESTION

If Vulcans mate often -- does that push off the onset of ponn farr (or lessen its impact)?

It is hard to imagine a planet where every day a significant number of persons are aroused to the point of violence. If the entire adult population is subject to it -- that could be millions or tens of millions every year. Almost every day on Vulcan would see thousands of ponn farr cases. That does not seem likely.

But if regular mating pushes off the ponn farr, it makes it more mystical, more cultural, more rare. Only those who are truly committed to logic -- and celibacy -- would face it. Or persons in careers (like Starfleet) where opportunities might be more rare. The stories around cases of ponn farr all seem to involve Vulcans who are isolated (i.e., Spock on the Enterprise, Tuvok on Voyager, etc.) with few opportunities for regular mating to avoid ponn farr. And its rare nature...would make it more frightening for those who face it. Chesspride216.144.161.51 (talk) 23:45, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Capitalization is inconsistent
The capitalization of the term needs to be made consistent throughout the article. -- J44xm 03:38, July 16, 2005 (UTC)

For that matter, several spelling variations of the term have been seen over the decades, including not only Pon Farr and Ponn Farr, but also "Ponu Faru." -- Logical Vulcan Linguist Girl —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.226.132.7 (talk) 09:38, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

The "Ponu Faru" spelling is from an old module-like publication printed sometime in the late 70s, I think. I have a copy around here somewhere, but I'm not sure exactly where, or else I could provide the reference; I believe it was the first mass publication of any attempt to produce a lexicon of the Vulcan language. iirc, the author said that this spelling was meant to reflect the fact that the Vulcan culture was modelled on Japanese culture, and Japanese "u" is often unpronounced. I also don't remember him (or her) indicating that any other orthographic convention existed for the word. I'll have to dig out my James Blish novelizations of the original series and see if he gives any other spelling. -- Logical Vulcan Linguist Girl (yup, the same one, just from a different IP now) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.195.200.178 (talk) 19:26, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Incorrect tense
Fixed incorrect tense in

"allowing the Vulcan to becoming bonded and to satisfy his urges."

Spock
"There is no canonical indication that Spock ever again experienced pon farr."

Well.. if you want to get technical, Spock experienced pon farr again in Star Trek III: The Search for Spock as a result of the genesis wave resurrecting him. BirdbrainedPhoenix 15:52, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Why the quotes around aided? I assume the implication here is that she mated with Spock. Unless you can cite this fact, remove the quotes. 72.85.148.226 (talk) 17:54, 28 May 2010 (UTC) Timothy

 * I agree, and while I'm several years late for this discussion, I've removed the quotes. BirdbrainedPhoenix (talk) 02:29, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

T'Pol
I know this is original research, but in Enterprise episode 2x25 Bounty, once T'Pol is healed, Dr. Phlox notes that T'Pol's "premature mating cycle has ended" implying that she knows when it's supposed to occur, meaning she has experienced it before. What do you think? Sxeraverx 19:27, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Deletion nomination
Article nominated for deletion - article has a lot of information in it - but the article is in-universe and needs to be primarily real-world. That said, if the article was to shed the in-universe information it would not have enough real-world information to stand alone on its own. Maybe merge into the Vulcan page to save the article? But remember, that page as well needs to be real-world primarily. Articles like this are better suited for memory alpha and not Wikipedia. Ejfetters 23:11, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Result was no consensus, but you can discuss possible merging since several respondents voted to merge.-- JForget 00:33, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

 * I'd just like to drop a note that I'd be strongly in favour of merging with the general Vulcan article 81.111.115.63 (talk) 12:16, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Pon farr.jpg
Image:Pon farr.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 10:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Tuvok
No one mentioned Lieutenant Tuvok from Voyager. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.99.13.47 (talk) 02:21, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Why the fan fiction emphasis?
Is homoerotic fan fiction really a significant enough part of the Star Trek universe that the majority of this entry has to refer to it? And not a single mention of Star Trek III? 99.232.87.203 (talk) 02:31, 21 May 2008 (UTC) Helo

I agree. The article should include a summary of what we know of Pon farr from the various Star Trek series' (it's seriously lacking there), and simply include mention of the homoerotic aspects of fan fiction. Dave 02:35, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed! It legitimizes fan faction to a degree atypical of Wikipedia entries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.226.65.85 (talk) 20:02, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

All references and citings of fan fiction should be removed. Fan fiction is prevelent in modern society but it has never been accepted as A. cannon B. legitimate source for reference and citing. I once read a rediculous online fan fiction about how Frodo and Gandalf were gay lovers... One would never cite this as an example of homosexuality in Middle Earth. It would be proposterous as is including fan fiction citings here.72.85.148.226 (talk) 17:41, 28 May 2010 (UTC) Timothy

Fan Fiction references should be removed. As stated above, they are not cannon. Additionally, they are not sanctioned, approved, edited, or linked to the series holder. This is as ridiculous as including the possibility that Gimli and Legolas have "something else" going on during the journey. Please remove it. Please please please remove it. It sucks the academia right out of Wikipedia. 74.248.208.84 (talk) 18:33, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah seriously, who wrote this page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.179.20.184 (talk) 11:18, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

 * I agree. Fanfic should only be a footnote, if mentioned at all. Delete. --Navstar (talk) 18:52, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Saavik
Saavik went through Pon Farr if any of you read Star Trek DC Comics 7 and 8 in 1984. Xon explained she was going through Pon Farr and had a fever.

Cultural Refrences?
Should a section be started about references in popular culture? like the episode of futurama where Zoidberg goes into a similar mating cycle? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.71.60.101 (talk) 02:02, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

This is irrelevent to the subject of Pon Farr nor is there direct evidence that that the two have any correlation. 72.85.148.226 (talk) 17:54, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

As there has been no consensus or reference to support this, I have removed this reference from the article. --RedHillian | Talk 00:43, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Dilbert pon farr arc in January 2011
Today is the second strip of a story arc on Dilbert that has a pon farr as its subject. I expect a couple more to come. If people keep removing and re-adding that information every day, this would turn into a little edit war of sorts. Can we please agree here on whether or not this reference should be on the page? I think it should or at least I don't see a reason why it shouldn't especially now that it seems to be mentioned in more than one or two strips. --Vertigo-1 (talk) 15:08, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The 'arc' seems to have fizzled out now, after three strips - I'd like to suggest we wait a week or so to see if there's a re-emergence of the theme, but if not we quietly remove it - 3 strips is less than 1% of the Dilbert output in a single year and hardly notable of itself. It's probably worth keeping the diffs for the edit noted here in case it becomes notable again though. --RedHillian | Talk 03:10, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Several weeks later, and the cycle did indeed go no further. Unless there's any objections I'll be taking the mention of Dilbert out in the next couple of days. --RedHillian | Talk 02:23, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. --RedHillian | Talk 00:43, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Wtf?
This entire Wikipedia has solidified the life long fact that star trek truly had some of the most illogical, poorly planned, and irrational story writing. If pon farr is so secret how does anyone even know about it period at all? The detachment the writing has from actual events required to actually make half the story work never works. How does a Vulcan orphan learn about pon farr? How does puberty play into it? How does varying lengths of pregnancy affect it? Even if vulcans only had sex in pon farr there would still be enough variation with pregnancy, onset of puberty, and general population that pointing out pon farr or casual sex as different really doesn't matter. The end result would be death if ignored, even though argument could be made casual sex would obviously control the biological urges every 7 years anyways. It's as if a man was writing everything and decided it'd be real sad if the world wasn't aware vulcans need to sling dick or die (man's worst nightmare obviously) and came to the conclusion fans would never understand the horribly conceived idea unless given a disturbing amount of story telling behind it, with multiple episodes dedicated to it. It's an easy to gloss over concept if simply presented as a hormonal change something like in the animal kingdom, or regular people, but the extra absurd details of every 7 years the universe just magically makes them wanna fuck, the fact fucking casually doesn't help control it, the fact it seems to be necessary to be part Vulcan, even though Spock's got a human parent, unless I'm wrong and fucking a human still does the trick since apparently a holographic is good enough even though the holograph was the Vulcan wife, which just raises more questions how fucking a ghost basically controls pon farr better than casual sex or possibly better than basic han sex. The literature in the wiki doesn't do a good job of describing any of it in any way that would make me think it's interesting, it makes me wish they stopped wasting time early on trying to make vulcans porn freaks every 7 years, and explained it as a basic 7 year hormone thing or something. Then spent more time writing episodes without this concept, and just wrote a better, more logically written and appropriately relevant show and episodes. Not some weirdly secretive thing almost nobody is supposed to know about, which by canon should cover the 4th wall of our perception of it. Defeats the purpose and any shot this idea had at being interesting or cool the second they claim it's universally taboo to the point of medical malpractice to keep it secret, yet they ruin that by telling you every single thing about it. Cause the best part of a magic show is the whole thing being spoiled ya know, the best part of a movie is someone spoiling every minute of it during it ya know, makes total sense to build up a possibly interesting concept like Vulcan sex being harder than owning a fucking gremlin and then immediately ruining it with a copout like holographic sex instead. Why introduce it at all if you're not only gonna not let it be secret like it's supposed to be, but you're also gonna give the most excuses and phallic reasons why the concept shouldn't and doesn't even need to exist when they can fuck a ghost and avoid the entire experience? Chime in if I sound crazy, but it just comes across as a plot point built as solid as a card house that wasn't thought through, and the further explanations and plot holes against it are even less thought through. 174.53.175.204 (talk) 15:01, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

 * Talk pages are not really for discussion -- but let's consider your points.

1. If ponn farr is secret -- how does anyone know about it. VULCANS know about it, just like Humans know about Human menstruation. But non-Vulcans may not know about it...as Vulcans do not talk about it very openly. 2. Casual sex apparently does not work -- ponn farr is a mental condition, it requires an emotional bond with the partner, not simply a physical release. Otherwise, they would simply masturbate. 3. It actually makes the Vulcan culture more mystifying -- i.e. are they really so shy and stuck-up that simple biology causes them these problems? Or -- is there a dirty underside to Vulcan culture the shows have not explored? Logical Vulcans are stoic -- they deny the emotions and the physical. So one can imagine that a certain large segment of the Vulcan population tries very hard to live up to those stoic values...leading to the extreme emotional need every 7 years. 4. See my earlier question as to whether periodic sex with a committed partner pushes off the onset of ponn farr. I find that to be the preferred solution, rather than the notion that 1/7th the population of Vulcan is in ponn farr every year. Chesspride216.144.161.51 (talk) 00:06, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Pon farr


text:
Babakin (lunar crater)

Babakin is a small lunar impact crater that is located in the southern part of the walled basin Fermi on the far side of the Moon. The crater rim is symmetrical, circular and sharp-edged, with only some minor erosion and a slight depression along the northern edge. The interior walls slope downward gently toward the center.

title: Babakin (lunar crater)


text:
Huddersfield New College

Huddersfield New College is a former grammar school and current sixth form college located in Salendine Nook on the outskirts of Huddersfield, in the county of West Yorkshire, England. The current principal is Doctor Alban. On 17 May 2016 the college was assessed as 'Outstanding' in all 6 inspection domains following an OFSTED review. They are the first Sixth Form College to receive such an accolade under the new (September 2016) inspection framework.

Huddersfield New College is situated to the west of the town, on  New Hey Road (A640) less than a mile from junction 23 of the M62. It should not be confused with Huddersfield Technical College, which became Kirklees College in 2008.

In 2019 the college was recognised as the TES 6th Form College of the Year.

Huddersfield College
Huddersfield College was founded in 1839. Henry Ernest Atkins, the chess master, was principal from 1909 to 1936.

Huddersfield New College as a boys grammar school
Huddersfield New College was founded in 1958 when the existing Huddersfield College was merged with Hillhouse Technical School to form a new boys' grammar school at a new campus at Salendine Nook with 950 boys. In 1959, the girls-only Longley Technical High School moved to the campus, with a new school called Huddersfield High School also on New Hey Road with 700 girls run by Huddersfield Education Committee. Princess Margaret opened the girls' school on the campus on 14 November 1958. The whole site, including Salendine Nook High School, had cost £1 million. Sir Edward Boyle opened Huddersfield New College on 26 March 1958.

The last admission of 11-year-olds was in 1972, and the college then began a gradual transition from a boys only grammar school to a co-educational sixth form college. During the dissolution of the grammar schools under Harold Wilson's watch (an old boy of the nearby Royds Hall Grammar School), he infamously said that grammar schools would be dismantled over his dead body. However the sixth form college has retained much of the academic-minded ethos of his former school.

Huddersfield New College as a co-educational sixth form college
It became a sixth form college when the two grammar schools, Huddersfield New College and Huddersfield High School, gradually merged from 1973. In 1974 it was administered by Kirklees Metropolitan Council until 1993 when funded by the FEFC. In 2001 it was administered by West Yorkshire LSC, whose executive director was Margaret Coleman, a former principal of the college.

Buildings
More recently, the eastern half of the original 1958 built building has been demolished, and replaced with a modern construction grafted onto the remaining half of the original building.

In January 2007 building works commenced to expand the current school to increase capacity. New buildings will house additional classrooms for Geography, Art, Psychology, Textiles, Modern Languages, IT, Media Studies and a new student dining area (known as the IT Café by students). Additional expansion to 'The Boiler House' – the current performing arts area is also commencing, yielding increased classrooms a recording studio and a new theatre. There has also been expansion to the sports centre, which now houses: Sports Studies, Travel and Tourism, Sociology, Health and Social Care, Children's Learning, Care and Development. Also a large gym with state-of-the-art equipment, and a large sports hall.

In September 2012 the college completed the construction of a £100,000 3G AstroTurf pitch which is also used by the neighbouring Salendine Nook High School.

Academic performance
In October 2011 the college was formally inspected by Ofsted, who praised the college and rated it as "a good college with outstanding features". Ofsted said that the college was showing a lot of improvement year-on-year and that the quality of teaching across all areas was good. All courses have high success rates, and students enjoy their time at the college.

On 17 May 2016 the college was assessed as 'Outstanding' in all 6 inspection domains following an OFSTED review. They are the first Sixth Form College to receive such an accolade under the new (September 2016) inspection framework.

Huddersfield New College

 * Roger Berry, Labour MP from 1992 to 2010 for Kingswood
 * Professor Bob Cryan, vice-chancellor of the University of Huddersfield
 * James Duddridge, Conservative MP since 2005 for Rochford and Southend East
 * Ian Jagger, clergyman and Archdeacon of Durham
 * Zöe Lucker, actress
 * Michael Moore, Fellow of the Royal Society and professor of theoretical physics at the University of Manchester
 * George Sheldrick, Professor of Structural Chemistry since 1978 at the University of Göttingen

Huddersfield College

 * Peter Armitage CBE, statistician and President of the Royal Statistical Society from 1982 to 1984, and Professor of Applied Statistics from 1976 to 1990 at the University of Oxford
 * Sir William Broadbent, President from 1895 to 1896 of the Neurological Society and from 1887 to 1888 of the Clinical Society, and father of Walter Broadbent
 * Joseph Coates, Australian schoolmaster and cricketer.
 * Roger Fletcher, Professor of Mathematics from 1993 to 2005 at the University of Dundee
 * Geoffrey Fryer FRS, freshwater biologist
 * Sir Amos Brook Hirst OBE, chairman from 1941 to 1955 of The Football Association, and president of Huddersfield Town F.C.
 * David Liddiment, Director of Programmes at ITV from 1997 to 2002, and member of the BBC Trust
 * Frederick Mallalieu, Liberal MP for Colne Valley from 1916 to 1922
 * Ali Mazrui, Kenyan historian and political scientist
 * Sir William Middlebrook, Liberal MP from 1908 to 1922 for Leeds South
 * Walter Parratt, organist
 * Sir Thomas Palmer Whittaker, Liberal MP from 1882 to 1919 for Spen Valley
 * William Willis, Liberal MP from 1880 to 1885 for Colchester
 * Sir German Sims Woodhead, President of the Royal Medical Society in 1878 and the Royal Microscopical Society from 1890 to 1899

Hillhouse Technical School

 * Rt Rev David Bonser, Bishop of Bolton from 1991 to 1999

title: Huddersfield New College


text:
User:Ilya (usurped)/Grothendieck/general stuff

=First things first=

Who is Grothendieck?
A very important mathematician actively working in 1950s-1991 years, who has many interesting scientific works unpublished. You may read more about his biography in this Wikipedia article.

What's this all about?
We are going to understand the ideas contained in Grothendieck works. It seems the good point to start is by reading these works but here we are confronted with some difficulties.

What's the problem? The texts are already on the net
Oh. You mean these PDFs of La longue marche a travers la theorie de Galois? Do you know how many parts are already typeset? Only part 1b. 110 pages. (And 130 coming soon). Do you know how much there should be? 400 TeX pages. And 1000 more of additional comments, that are unavailable even in the scanned form. They are handwritten!

Then, Pursuing stacks. It's a letter. How long are your letters? Perhaps 10 pages. Perhaps 50 pages if you are very talky. This letter is 500 pages long. And it's not about one's relatives health. It's about mathematics. Still if you're going to read it you have no choice but downloading the PDF with scans of typewritten text (what's the current year?)

Then, Récoltes et Semailles is already OCRed! Great! 0 and 1 part (of 5), so you may read them here. You don't read French and want some translation? Or you think some editorial work should be done after OCRing? This is exactly what we are doing with this document. Look at French original, or to English translation (originally copied from user:Roy Lisker homepage and continued by volunteers).

But even if you've read all these texts you may still wander what a topos has to do with space, what is derivateur and how topology needs to be tamed. And this is the place for you to get the answer. You already know? Please write it for a dummie which doesn't understand it yet - I mean, me!

So what are you doing?
Right now we are typesetting major texts by Grothendieck. We are also trying to expand his work by commenting on what's going on with these ideas right now (for example, motivic homotopy theory is widely believed to be inspired by Grothendieck - I'm not specialist in this stuff, sorry). We're trying to clarify the meaning of difficult words, like anabelian geometry, topos, stack (You've certainly heard these words - but there are many more)

Doesn't it sound like Grothendieck personal cult?
Guys, I'm not going to put Sasha's portrets on streets. But he really made good mathematics. And an honest statement that his ideas are great and worth understanding may be right or wrong but anyway is far from being a cult.

= Wiki =

How is the work organized?
This site is a wiki, which means that anyone, including you, can edit most pages right now. This was inspired by Wikipedia. We've copied MediaWiki, the system that runs WIkipedia, so the Wiki-syntax is exactly as there. See Wikipedia:Help for more details on how to create articles and enter text.

What different namespaces do you have?
As usual, fr:, en:, es:, etc mean different languages. Prefix W: links to Wikipedia articles. Talk: is Talk: and User: is User:. We don't have many general pages yet, so we hardly need Meta:.

How do I work on a single book?
To distinguish the sections of one book, use slash: RS/Promenade means the first chapter of RS, which equals to Récoltes et Semailles, english of french depending on your current language (I find it preferable to keep original titles in translations). One day the links to next/previous chapter and index will be made automatical, so don't bother with them at this moment. The naming conventions are yet to be developed, so invent them by yourself.

How do I do math?
Use it in the usual TeX way enclosed into math tag: $$e^x= 1+x+\frac{x^2}{2!}+\dots$$.

=What can I do?=

Typesetting the text
The whole process may be:
 * 1) find the source
 * 2) scan it
 * 3) make it available from the internet
 * 4) OCR it or type by yourself
 * 5) don't forget math
 * 6) format text
 * 7) proofread it
 * 8) translate it to another language
 * 9) make all inter-text and interlanguage links
 * 10) comment on what's going on
 * 11) try to understand the text
 * 12) summarize some ideas from there
 * 13) write an original article on the topic

Sounds too big? Never mind. Just do what you can. Others will correct you if you're mistaken. For example, if the source is generally unavailable, scanning it would be a great step forward. For the textes which already have the source scanned you may want to type it or correct others doing it. If nobody started doing the book, just create an entry for the book. Some will proceed with the contents page, others will follow with the text itself. Somebody else will translate. And so forth.

Are we going to work as typers?
Of course, there is a lot of more intellectual work than correcting text recognition software mistakes. At any time you may start a general article about, say yoga of motives. In this case I encourage you to start in Wikipedia and to link there from here and here from there. However, if we find out that Wikipedia's style is inappropriate, we will create such articles here.

=Legal issues=

What's about copyright on source texts?
I'm not a laywer, but it seems that if a book is unpublished, its copyright is held by an author. And at least some texts were distributed by Grothendieck himself. Other texts were found in the papers given to his friend, so we'd ask him before typesetting these papers. There are also many published texts, like SGA or various articles, for which we'll examine the situation in details. See Grothendieck Copyrights. In any case,

Shall Grothendieck, or someone in his name, indicate that the copyright owner doesn't want these things to be done in this way, they will be stopped

As for initial sources for translations into English (by User:Roy Lisker) and Russian (by user:Yu Friedman and M Finkelberg), the authors explicitely allowed a distribution of their work.

What's about the copyright on the produced texts?
While I'm not certain about the copyright on the text that is simply copied from a typewritten book into the computer, there will be much more valuable work -- translations and commentaries. Our License is being developed. Its main postulates will be:

 * You give everybody the right to distribute freely the texts, provided Grothendieck's authorship and our coding/translating efforts are acknowledged
 * You will be mentioned somewhere in this project with as much information as you want to write about yourself on your user page
 * Whether we should prohibit or encourage commercial use of the texts is still unclear for me. See below for my personal views on publishing.

What about publishing the books?
I like it the way it is - electronically. If you are really fond of old-fashioned paper books you may want to publish some of the texts. Perhaps RS could be a big sale (it's been already printed in Russia, and it's all sold). I think we should explicitly permit non-commercial publishing (for me, it's when a book costs the price of print and not more). As for me, we can permit even commercial publishing if each book contains a notice that the text can be obtained at no cost at different place.

Why don't sell the books by ourselves?
While our license will explicitly permit distributing the text in many ways, we may want to reserve the right for commercial printing. In this case I don't know who legally will hold the copyright. None of individual contributors can have the copyright for the whole work and nobody's inividual copyright should be transferred to another entity (what for?), be it me, university which hosts the project or somebody else. One may suggest that we form some 'foundation', print the books and give the profit to something like sponsoring Grothendieck-related meetups. While in principle I'm not against this I find it really hard to organize such a thing. However, your ideas are welcome.

= Further questions = While comments on each individual page should be directed to its Talk: page, the best place to ask general questions is the village pump.

Now start browsing with main page. Don't forget that everything is editable (not ediable, such a pity!).