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Liang Qichao

Liang Qichao (Chinese: 梁啓超 ; Wade-Giles: Liang2 Chʻi3-chʻao1; Yale: Lèuhng Kái-chīu) (February 23, 1873 – January 19, 1929) was a Chinese politician, social and political activist, journalist, and intellectual. His thought had a significant influence on the political reformation of modern China. He inspired Chinese scholars and activists with his writings and reform movements. His translations of Western and Japanese books into Chinese further introduced new theories and ideas and inspired young activists.

In his youth, Liang Qichao joined his teacher Kang Youwei in the reform movement of 1898. When the movement was defeated, he fled to Japan and promoted a constitutional monarchy and organized political opposition to the dynasty. After the revolution of 1911, he joined the Beiyang government, serving as the chief justice and the first president of the currency system bureau. He became dissatisfied with Yuan Shikai and launched a movement to oppose his ambition to be emperor. After Yuan's death, he served as the finance chief of the Duan Qirui cabinet and as supervisor of the Salt Administration. He advocated the New Culture Movement and supported cultural change but not political revolution.

Family
Liang Qichao was born in a small village in Xinhui, Guangdong Province on February 23, 1873. Liang's father, Liang Baoying (梁寶瑛, Cantonese: Lèuhng Bóu-yīng; courtesy name Lianjian 蓮澗; Cantonese: Lìhn-gaan), was a farmer and local scholar, but had a classical background that emphasized on tradition and education for ethnic rejuvenescence allowed him to be introduced to various literary works at six years old. By the age of nine, Liang started writing thousand-word essays and became a district-school student soon after. Liang had two wives: Li Huixian (李惠仙; Cantonese: Léih Waih-sīn) and Wang Guiquan (王桂荃; Cantonese: Wòhng Gwai-chyùhn). They gave birth to nine children, all of whom became successful individuals through Liang's strict and effective education. Three of them were scientific personnel at the Chinese Academy of Sciences, including Liang Sicheng, the prominent historian of Chinese architecture.

Early life
Liang passed the Xiucai degree provincial examination at the age of 11. In 1884, he undertook the arduous task of studying for the traditional governmental exams. At the age of 16, he passed the Juren second level provincial exams and was the youngest successful candidate at that time.

In 1890, Liang failed in his Jinshi degree national examinations in Beijing and never earned a higher degree. He took the exams along with Kang Youwei, a famous Chinese scholar and reformist. According to one popular narrative of Liang's failure to pass the Jinshi, the examiner was determined to flunk Kang for his heterodox challenge to existing institutions, but since the exams were all anonymous, he could only presume that the exam with the most unorthodox views was Kang's. Instead, Kang disguised himself by writing an examination eight-legged essay espousing traditionalist ideas and passed the exam while Liang's paper was assumed to be Kang's and picked out to be failed.

Inspired by the book Illustrated Treatise on the Maritime Kingdoms by the reform Confucian scholar Wei Yuan, Liang became extremely interested in western political thought. After returning home, Liang went on to study with Kang Youwei, who was teaching at Wanmu Caotang in Guangzhou. Kang's teachings about foreign affairs fueled Liang's interest in reforming China.

In 1895, Liang went to the capital Beijing again with Kang for the national examination. During the examination, he was active in the Gongche Shangshu movement. After failing to pass the examination for a second time, he stayed in Beijing to help Kang publish Domestic and Foreign Information. He also helped to organize the Society for National Strengthening, where Liang served as secretary. For time, he was also enlisted by the governor of Hunan, Chen Baozhen to edit reform-friendly publications, such as the Hunan Daily (Xiangbao 湘報) and the Hunan Journal (Xiang xuebao 湘學報).

Reform movements
As an advocate of constitutional monarchy, Liang was unhappy with the governance of the Qing Government and wanted to change the status quo in China. He organized reforms with Kang Youwei by putting their ideas on paper and sending them to the Guangxu Emperor (reigned 1875–1908) of the Qing dynasty. This movement is known as the Wuxu Reform or the Hundred Days' Reform. Their proposal asserted that China was in need of more than self-strengthening, and called for many institutional and ideological changes such as getting rid of corruption and remodeling the state examination system. Liang thus was a major influence in the debates on democracy in China.

This proposal soon ignited a frenzy of disagreement, and Liang became a wanted man by order of Empress Dowager Cixi, the leader of the political conservative faction who later took over the government as regent. Cixi strongly opposed reforms at that time and along with her supporters, condemned the "Hundred Days' Reform" as being too radical.

In 1898, the Conservative Coup ended all reforms, and Liang fled to Japan, where he stayed for the next 14 years. While in Tokyo he befriended the influential politician and future Japanese Prime Minister Inukai Tsuyoshi. In Japan, he continued to actively advocate the democratic cause by using his writings to raise support for the reformers’ cause among overseas Chinese and foreign governments. He continued to emphasize the importance of individualism, and to support the concept of a constitutional monarchy as opposed to the radical republicanism supported by the Tokyo-based Tongmenghui (the forerunner of the Kuomintang). During his time in Japan, Liang also served as a benefactor and colleague to Phan Boi Chau, one of Vietnam's most important anticolonial revolutionaries.

In 1899, Liang went to Canada, where he met Dr. Sun Yat-Sen among others, then to Honolulu in Hawaii. During the Boxer Rebellion, Liang was back in Canada, where he formed the "Chinese Empire Reform Association". This organization later became the Constitutionalist Party which advocated constitutional monarchy. While Sun promoted revolution, Liang preached incremental reform.

In 1900–1901, Liang visited Australia on a six-month tour that aimed at raising support for a campaign to reform the Chinese empire and thus modernize China through adopting the best of Western technology, industry and government systems. He also gave public lectures to both Chinese and Western audiences around the country. This visit coincided with the Federation of the six British colonies into the new nation of Australia in 1901. He felt this model of integration might be an excellent model for the diverse regions of China. He was feted by politicians, and met the first Prime Minister of Australia, Edmund Barton. He returned to Japan later that year.

In 1903, Liang embarked on an eight-month lecture tour throughout the United States, which included a meeting with President Theodore Roosevelt in Washington, DC, before returning to Japan via Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada.

While living in Japan in 1905, Liang supported the Constitutionalist movement within the Qing administration.

The descendant of Confucius Duke Yansheng was proposed as a replacement for the Qing dynasty as Emperor by Liang Qichao.

Politician
For the construction of the modernization, Liang focused on two relative questions in politics. The first one was the ways that transformed people became citizen for modernization, and Liang thought Chinese needed to improve civic ethos to build the nation-state in the Qing dynasty, and the second one was the question of the citizenship, and Liang thought both of them were important to support the reformation in the Qing dynasty. In Liang's view, Chineseness was a cultural concept rather than an ethnic concept. Liang viewed China as weak not because of ethnic Manchu rule, but because of its cultural customs formed over millennia. From his perspective, an "imperial strategy" to combine all Chinese ethnicities into one nation was the best path to a strong China.

With the overthrow of the Qing dynasty, constitutional monarchy became an increasingly irrelevant topic. Liang merged his renamed Democratic Party with the Republicans to form the new Progressive Party. He was very critical of Sun Yatsen's attempts to undermine President Yuan Shikai. Though usually supportive of the government, he opposed the expulsion of the Nationalists from parliament.

Liang Qichao's thought was influenced by the West, and he learned about the new political thought and regimes of the Western countries, and he learned these from the Japanese translation books, and he learned the Western thought through Meiji Japan to analyze the knowledge of the West.

In 1915, he opposed Yuan's attempt to make himself emperor. He convinced his disciple Cai E, the military governor of Yunnan, to rebel. Progressive party branches agitated for the overthrow of Yuan and more provinces declared their independence. The revolutionary activity that he had frowned upon was utilized successfully. Besides Duan Qirui, Liang was the biggest advocate of entering World War I on the Allied side. He felt it would boost China's status and also ameliorate foreign debts. He condemned his mentor, Kang Youwei, for assisting in the failed attempt to restore the Qing in July 1917. After failing to turn Duan Qirui and Feng Guozhang into responsible statesmen, he gave up and left politics.

Despite the failures of his reforms, Liang Qichao's idea of Chinese nationalism based on the civic idea of Five Races Under One Union inspired Sun Yat-sen and the Kuomintang's nationalism, as well as the nationalist rhetoric of the CCP.

As a journalist
Lin Yutang once called Liang "the greatest personality in the history of Chinese journalism," while Joseph Levenson, author of Liang Ch'i-ch'ao and the Mind of Modern China, described Liang as "a brilliant scholar, journalist, and political figure."

Liang Qichao was the "most influential turn-of-the-century scholar-journalist," according to Levenson. Liang showed that newspapers and magazines could serve as an effective medium for communicating political ideas.

Liang, as a historian and a journalist, believed that both careers must have the same purpose and "moral commitment," as he proclaimed, "by examining the past and revealing the future, I will show the path of progress to the people of the nation." Thus, he founded his first newspaper, called the Qing Yi Bao (淸議報), named after a student movement of the Han dynasty.

Liang's exile to Japan allowed him to speak freely and exercise his intellectual autonomy. During his career in journalism, he edited two premier newspapers, Zhongwai Gongbao (中外公報) and Shiwu Bao (時務報). He also published his moral and political ideals in Qing Yi Bao (淸議報) and New Citizen (新民叢報).

In addition, he used his literary works to further spread his views on republicanism both in China and across the world. Accordingly, he had become an influential journalist in terms of political and cultural aspects by writing new forms of periodical journals. He published his articles in the magazine New Youth to expand the thought of science and democracy in the 1910s. Furthermore, journalism paved the way for him to express his patriotism.

New Citizen Journal
Liang produced a widely read biweekly journal called New Citizen (Xinmin Congbao 新民叢報), first published in Yokohama, Japan on February 8, 1902.

The journal covered many different topics, including politics, religion, law, economics, business, geography and current and international affairs. In the journal, Liang coined many Chinese equivalents for never-before-heard theories or expressions and used the journal to help communicate public opinion in China to faraway readers. Through news analyses and essays, Liang hoped that the New Citizen would be able to start a "new stage in Chinese newspaper history."

A year later, Liang and his co-workers saw a change in the newspaper industry and remarked, "Since the inauguration of our journal last year, there have come into being almost ten separate journals with the same style and design."

Liang spread his notions about democracy as chief editor of the New Citizen Journal. The journal was published without hindrance for five years but eventually ceased in 1907 after 96 issues. Its readership was estimated to be 200,000.

Role of the newspaper
As one of the pioneers of Chinese journalism of his time, Liang believed in the "power" of newspaper, especially its influence over government policies. In 1896, he wrote an editorial for the first issue of Shiwu bao (Contemporary affairs) titled, ''On the Benefits of the Press to State Affairs. '' In the editorial, Liang compared the circulation of information in a country to the blood and pulse of a body. Liang wrote that China was weak due to blockages of communication between the rulers, ministers, the people, and between China and the outside world. He criticized the Qing dynasty for its control on information, which to Liang implied a failure of political rationality.

Liang both praised Western freedom of the press and criticized Western media narratives of China for legitimizing colonization and conquest.

Using newspapers and magazines to communicate political ideas: Liang realised the importance of journalism's social role and supported the idea of a strong relationship between politics and journalism before the May Fourth Movement, (also known as the New Culture Movement). He believed that newspapers and magazines should serve as an essential and effective tool in communicating political ideas. The magazine New Youth became an important way to show his thought in the New Culture Movement, and his articles spread the ideas to the youth in that period. He believed that newspapers did not only act as a historical record, but was also a means to "shape the course of history."

Press as a weapon in revolution: Liang also thought that the press was an "effective weapon in the service of a nationalist uprising". In Liang's words, the newspaper is a “revolution of ink, not a revolution of blood.” He wrote, "so a newspaper regards the government the way a father or elder brother regards a son or younger brother — teaching him when he does not understand, and reprimanding him when he gets something wrong." Undoubtedly, his attempt to unify and dominate a fast-growing and highly competitive press market has set the tone for the first generation of newspaper historians of the May Fourth Movement.

Newspaper as an educational program: Liang was well aware that the newspaper could serve as an "educational program", and said, "the newspaper gathers virtually all the thoughts and expressions of the nation and systematically introduces them to the citizenry, it being irrelevant whether they are important or not, concise or not, radical or not. The press, therefore, can contain, reject, produce, as well as destroy, everything."

For example, Liang wrote a well known essay during his most radical period titled "The Young China" and published it in his newspaper Qing Yi Bao (淸議報) on February 2, 1900. The essay established the concept of the nation-state and argued that the young revolutionaries were the holders of the future of China. This essay was influential on the Chinese political culture during the May Fourth Movement in the 1920s.

Weak press: However, Liang thought that the press in China at that time was quite weak, not only due to lack of financial resources and to conventional social prejudices, but also because "the social atmosphere was not free enough to encourage more readers and there was a lack of roads and highways that made it hard to distribute newspapers". Liang felt that the prevalent newspapers of the time were "no more than a mass commodity". He criticized that those newspapers "failed to have the slightest influence upon the nation as a society".

Literary career
Liang Qichao was both a traditional Confucian scholar and a reformist. Liang Qichao contributed to the reform in late Qing by writing various articles interpreting non-Chinese ideas of history and government, with the intent of stimulating Chinese citizens' minds to build a new China. In his writings, he argued that China should protect the ancient teachings of Confucianism, but also learn from the successes of Western political life and not just Western technology.

Liang shaped the ideas of democracy in China, using his writings as a medium to combine Western scientific methods with traditional Chinese historical studies. Liang's works were strongly influenced by the Japanese political scholar Katō Hiroyuki, who used methods of social Darwinism to promote the statist ideology in Japanese society. Liang drew from much of his work and subsequently influenced Korean nationalists in the 1900s.

Historiographical thought
Liang Qichao's historiographical thought represents the beginning of modern Chinese historiography and reveals some important directions of Chinese historiography in the twentieth century.

For Liang, the major flaw of "old historians" (舊史家) was their failure to foster the national awareness necessary for a strong and modern nation. Liang's call for new history not only pointed to a new orientation for historical writing in China, but also indicated the rise of modern historical consciousness among Chinese intellectuals. He advocated the Great Man theory in his 1899 piece, "Heroes and the Times" (英雄與時勢, Yīngxióng yǔ Shíshì), and he also wrote biographies of European state-builders such as Otto von Bismarck, Horatio Nelson, Oliver Cromwell, Lajos Kossuth, Giuseppe Mazzini, and Camillo Benso, Count of Cavour; as well as Chinese men including Zheng He, Tan Sitong, and Wang Anshi.

During this period of Japan's challenge in the First Sino-Japanese War (1894–95), Liang was involved in protests in Beijing pushing for an increased participation in the governance by the Chinese people. It was the first protest of its kind in modern Chinese history. This changing outlook on tradition was shown in the historiographical revolution (史學革命) launched by Liang Qichao in the early twentieth century. Frustrated by his failure at political reform, Liang embarked upon cultural reform. In 1902, while in exile in Japan, Liang wrote "The New Historiography" (新史學), which called on Chinese to study world history to understand China rather than just Chinese history. The article also attacked old historiographical methods, which he lamented focused on dynasty over state; the individual over the group; the past but not the present; and facts, rather than ideals.

Translator
Liang was head of the Translation Bureau and oversaw the training of students who were learning to translate Western works into Chinese. He believed that this task was "the most essential of all essential undertakings to accomplish" because he believed Westerners were successful - politically, technologically and economically.

Philosophical Works: After escaping Beijing and the government crackdown on anti-Qing protesters, Liang studied the works of Western philosophers of the Enlightenment period, namely Hobbes, Rousseau, Locke, Hume and Bentham, translating them and introducing his own interpretation of their works. His essays were published in a number of journals, drawing interest among Chinese intellectuals who had been taken aback by the dismemberment of China's formidable empire at the hands of foreign powers.

Western Social and Political Theories: In the early 20th century, Liang Qichao played a significant role in introducing Western social and political theories into Korea such as Social Darwinism and international law. Liang wrote in his well-known manifesto, New People (新民說):

 * “Freedom means Freedom for the Group, not Freedom for the Individual. (…) Men must not be slaves to other men, but they must be slaves to their group. For, if they are not slaves to their own group, they will assuredly become slaves to some other.”

Poet and novelist
Liang advocated reform in both the genres of poem and novel. The Collected Works from the Ice-Drinker's Studio (飲冰室合集) is his representative works in literature compiled into 148 volumes.

Liang gained his idea of calling his work as Collected Works of Yinbingshi from a passage of Zhuangzi. It states that "Every morning, I receive the mandate [for action], every evening I drink the ice [of disillusion], but I remain ardent in my inner mind" (吾朝受命而夕飲冰，我其內熱與). As a result, Liang called his workplace as "The Ice-drinker's studio" (Yinbingshi), and addressed himself as Yinbingshi Zhuren (飲冰室主人), literally Host of the Ice-drinker's studio, in order to present his idea that he was worrying about all the political matters, so he would still try his best to reform the society by the effort of writings.

Liang also wrote fiction and scholarly essays on fiction, which included Fleeing to Japan after failure of Hundred Days' Reform (1898) and the essay On the Relationship Between Fiction and the Government of the People (論小說與群治之關係, 1902). These novels emphasized modernization in the West and the call for reform.

Educator
In the early 1920s, Liang retired from politics and taught at the Tung-nan University in Shanghai and Tsinghua University Research Institute in Peking. He founded the Jiangxue she (Chinese Lecture Association) and brought important intellectual figures to China, including Driesch and Rabindranath Tagore. Academically he was a renowned scholar of his time, introducing Western learning and ideology, and making extensive studies of ancient Chinese culture. He was impacted by a social-Darwinian perspective to researched approaches to combine the western thought and Chinese learning.

As an educator, Liang Qichao thought children were the future of the development of China, and he thought the education was significant for children's growth, and the traditional education approaches needed to be changed, and the educational reformation was important in Modern China. He thought children needed to cultivate creative thinking and improve the ability of understanding, and the new school became important to instruct children in the new approaches in the education.

During this last decade of his life, published studies of Chinese cultural history, Chinese literary history and historiography. Liang reexamined the works of Mozi, and authored, amongst other works, The Political Thought of the Pre-Qing Period, and Intellectual Trends in the Qing Period. He also had a strong interest in Buddhism and wrote historical and political articles on its influence in China. Liang influenced many of his students in producing their own literary works. They included Xu Zhimo, renowned modern poet, and Wang Li, an accomplished poet and founder of Chinese linguistics as a modern discipline.

Publications

 * Introduction to the Learning of the Qing Dynasty (1920)
 * The Learning of Mohism (1921)
 * Chinese Academic History of the Recent 300 Years (1924)
 * History of Chinese Culture (1927)
 * The Construction of New China
 * The Philosophy of Lao Tzu
 * The History of Buddhism in China
 * Collected Works of Yinbingshi, Zhonghua Book Co, Shanghai 1936, republished in Beijing, 2003, ISBN 7-101-00475-X /K.210

Family

 * Paternal grandfather
 * Liang Weiqing (梁維淸) (1815 - 1892), pseudonym Jingquan (鏡泉)
 * Paternal grandmother
 * Lady Li (黎氏) (1817 - 1873), daughter of Guangxi admiral Li Diguang (黎第光)
 * Father
 * Liang Baoying (梁寶瑛) (1849 - 1916), courtesy name Lianjian (蓮澗)
 * Mother
 * Lady Zhao (趙氏) (1852 - 1887)
 * First wife
 * Li Huixian (李蕙仙), married Liang Qichao in 1891, died of illness on 13 September 1924
 * Second wife
 * Wang Guiquan (王桂荃), initially Li Huixian's handmaiden before becoming Liang Qichao's concubine in 1903

Issue and descendants

 * Eldest daughter: Liang Sishun (梁思順) (14 April 1893 – 1966), became an accomplished poet, married Zhou Xizhe (周希哲) in 1925
 * Zhou Nianci (周念慈)
 * Zhou Tongshi (周同軾)
 * Zhou Youfei (周有斐)
 * Zhou Jiaping (周嘉平)
 * Eldest son: Liang Sicheng (梁思成) (20 April 1901 - 9 January 1972), became a famous architect and teacher, married Lin Huiyin (10 June 1904 - 1 April 1955) in 1928
 * Son: Liang Congjie (梁從誡) (4 August 1932 - 28 October 2010), prominent environmental activist, married firstly Zhou Rumei (周如枚), married secondly Fang Jing (方晶)
 * Son: Liang Jian (梁鑑), son of Zhou Rumei
 * Daughter: Liang Fan (梁帆), daughter of Fang Jing
 * Daughter: Liang Zaibing (梁再冰)
 * 2nd son: Liang Siyong (梁思永) (24 July 1904 - 2 April 1954), married Li Fuman (李福曼)
 * Daughter: Liang Baiyou (梁柏有)
 * 3rd son: Liang Sizhong (梁思忠) (6 August 1907 – 1932)
 * 2nd daughter: Liang Sizhuang (梁思莊) (1908 - 20 May 1986), married Wu Luqiang (-hant吳魯強) in 1933
 * Daughter: Wu Liming (吳荔明)
 * Son: Yang Nianqun (楊念羣) (20 January 1964-), male-line great-grandson late-Ch'ing era personage Yang Du
 * 4th son: Liang Sida (梁思達) (16 December 1912 – 2001), married Yu Xuezhen (俞雪臻)
 * Daughter: Liang Yibing (梁憶冰)
 * 1st son: Liang Renyou (梁任又)
 * 2nd son: Liang Renkan (梁任堪)
 * 3rd daughter: Liang Siyi (梁思懿) (13 December 1914 – 1988), married Zhang Weixun (張偉遜)
 * 1st daughter: Zhang Yuwen (張郁文)
 * 2nd son: Zhang Anwen (張安文)
 * 4th daughter: Liang Sining (梁思寧) (30 October 1916 – 2006), married Zhang Ke (章柯)
 * Zhang Antai (章安泰)
 * Zhang Anqiu (章安秋)
 * Zhang Anjian (章安建)
 * Zhang Hui (章惠)
 * Zhang Anning (章安寧)
 * 5th son: Liang Sili (梁思禮) (24 August 1924 – 14 April 2016), married Mai Xiuqiong (麥秀瓊)
 * Liang Zuojun (梁左軍)
 * Liang Hong (梁紅)
 * Liang Xuan (梁旋)

Liang Sishun, Liang Sicheng, and Liang Sizhuang were borne by Li Huixian. Liang Siyong, Liang Sizhong, Liang Sida, Liang Siyi, Liang Sining, and Liang Sili were borne by Wang Guiquan.

Legacy
Liang's pedigree book was once lost with only one page left. The family members recreated the naming method by giving sixteen characters in a sequence, each generation following one. Liang didn't follow it by using ‘思’ to his children.

title: Liang Qichao


text: User talk:81.193.92.114

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:81.193.92.114


text:
Talk:GNU Free Documentation License/Archive 1

Tables
Yo.

Dig the table idea, don't particularly care for this rendition of it. I went ahead and made an alternate, it lives here:

http://oconnor.cx/tmp/wikipedia/alternate-table.shtml

Basically, I didn't care for the not-XHTMLness of the table. Would it be possible to have alternate versions, for people who are pedantic about this sort of thing?

-- EdwardOConnor

I really don't like this idea of a table-requirement. Sure, I believe in acknowledgement, but I really think the means of acknowledgement should be up to the person using the information, so long as they are reasonable.

If I want to create a mirror of Wikipedia, this would require that table to be at the bottom of every page, which isn't required for the copy on wikipedia.com. I think that's being discriminatory and distracts from the free nature of Wikipedia. It reminds me of a lot of supposedly "Open Source" licenses put out by companies such as Sun or Netscape, which give everyone the right to use the product, but give some users more rights than others. I don't want Wikipedia to be like that.

Finally, who imposed this requirement? The content of Wikipedia is the property of those who submitted it. The submission notice says the authors agree for it to be released under the GNU FDL, it says nothing about this table requirement. I don't think anyone has the right to impose such a requirement without consulting those everyone who authored it. -- SJK

SJK, I'm pretty sure the GNU FDL allows for this. This is one of the interesting differences between it and the GPL. A motivating factor in the creation of the FDL in fact. -- EdwardOConnor

Hey Ted, your table is very cool...let's say people can use either one!

Simon, Jimbo imposed this requirement, and I implemented it. Your concerns are understandable. We should have made this requirement explicit from the start, but frankly, at the start of Wikipedia's life, we didn't know that it would end up being this popular or this good, so we just didn't care. Let me say, however, that it was certainly our (Jimbo's and my) understanding from the very beginning that, if Wikipedia did get popular or good, we would have some such a requirement. Cf. Nupedia's requirement which is linked to from Nupedia article pages, e.g., here. It certainly would have been much better if we had said this sooner.

Also, to discuss the property issues you are raising, please do me a favor and join Wikipedia-L, and please see the recent discussion (just this month ). Others have already started discussing what you are taking a strong stand on here. --LMS

Edward: I just read the license, and it says no such thing. It says you can require the document to be distributed with unmodifiable appendices or front-matter sections. I don't think placing a logo on EVERY page can be considered an appendix or a front-matter section. It also seems to imply that the originally released copy of the document would include these sections, but I don't seek none of these tables on www.wikipedia.com. It also requires a specific notice naming those invariant sections, which is nowhere found on Wikipedia. Finally, the point remains is that when I at least submitted content to Wikipedia, there was no mention of these optional provisions of the license being used, even though they might be allowed to be by the terms of the license. So I can't see how they can legally be imposed in relation to content authored by me without my consent. The same goes for anyone else who disagrees with the table requirement. -- SJK

My version of the requirements: This has to be rephrased! --Magnus Manske
 * On printed versions, either "http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/TheTitle" or "Based on Wikipedia (http://www.wikipedia.com)".
 * On web pages, tables (if compatible/in tune with the surrounding HTML document), link to the original article or Wikipedia homepage otherwise.
 * If many articles (e.g., 5 or more) are used, table on the main page, links to the individual articles on the individual pages.
 * Additionally, mention on cover for books and mass-produced CDs ;)

GFDL on quotations
I have a question about the GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL). If a document (quotation) is incorporated into the Wikipedia with the informed permission of the original author, it then becomes subject to the GFDL, right? Wikipedians are entitled to re-edit it?

On the other hand, we can mark some sections (such as quotes from other authors) as "secondary sections"/"invariant sections", right? - Thereby specifying "This material may not be re-edited"?

I strongly suggest that Wikipedia produce and make known to Wikipedians a text for "author's permission agreement" making these rules plain to any authors that Wikipedians may want to ask for permission. I think there's a serious danger of later misunderstandings here.

If they explicitly give permission, depends on what conditions they give permission under. I think an author's permission agreement would be a good idea, not just for outside authors but also for Wikipedians, just so there can be no misunderstanding. I've suggested such a thing at the end of Wikipedia commentary/SJKs Wikipedia-Specific License proposal, although I call it "terms and conditions".

I am very wary of puting anything in Wikipedia that is an "invariant section". The whole idea behind Wikipedia is anyone can edit anything. -- SJK

 * So in other words, as things now stand the situation is a huge mess?

Yes, personally that is how I would describe the current state of copyright and licensing issues on Wikipedia. We really haven't thought the whole thing through, IMHO. -- SJK

 * Well, about time to get on the stick. "Wikipedia .... started in January 2001 and already [has] over 15,000 articles. We want to make over 100,000". A lot of room for "misunderstandings" there.

TheCunctator's subpages
Goddammit. I'm sorry; I started trying to make sense of the License by wikifying it, but I just remembered it's copyrighted. Please delete all the subpages I created. --TheCunctator

Change of the license
I do not like that the current change of the license. It somehow breaks the contract with the contributors so far and it makes feel uneasy about what will come next in this direction. Will it be the inclusion of an topic specific advertisment link? It seems that the copyright owner is willing to change the license. As the owner he is entitled to do so from the strictly legal view. But as this project only grows because of volunteers it breaks the moral agreement with them. At least some of them will perceive it like that. The best thing would be to transfer the license to an agency which would make sure that the license is not changed. (e.g. the Free Software Foundation and not a privately owned company) -- HannesHirzel

Hannes, there has been no change in the license. The content is now as always under the GNU FDL. I don't know why you might think otherwise. And, by the way, the inclusion of a topic specific advertising link is certainly well within the realm of possibility in the future.

Please write to me at jwales@bomis.com if you have concerns about my morality!

--Jimbo Wales

Thank you for your clarifying answer.

Generally I like the wikipedia idea very much. I understand that the content is free but so to say the "wrapping paper" of each individual entry (with the color and imprints) may be choosen and changed by you Jimbo at any time. And you acutally force somebody who wants to mirror / copy / distribute the content to use it. So he is forced to include content he actually may not want. This considerably weakens the idea of "free content" - one could even say it violates its general spirit. So much about morality.

This mean you disallow people for example to copy and distribute whole articles without this notice. Contributors should then be clearly informed on the front page about this. This is a new thing which appears ten months after the start of this project. It is actually a test case how reliable the people behind wikipedia are. I think it's up to the public to decide how well they are performing.

What would be OK in my point of view is just a reference to www.wikipedia.com and the GNU public documentation license *and* a confirmation that there will be no amendments in the future. It may well be that this is already a violation of the license. Somebody with more legal background than I should comment on this.

HannesHirzel

Hannes: It's in some sense a non-issue whether the table is a violation of the license, because Wikipedia is still not properly released under the GFDL. Until there's the copyright/license notice (see /Workshop), Wikipedia is only informally under the GFDL. Without that notice (and some other necessary clarifications), compliance with the GFDL for people using material from Wikipedia is, by the very terms of the GFDL, impossible.

--TheCunctator

Hannes, we will be resolving all these issues next week, together, and amicably. Please join Wikipedia-L if you're interested. Wikipedia has indeed been publicly released under the GFDL for a long time, legal quibbling notwithstanding. Frankly, when we started the Wikipedia project, we had no particular reason to think it was going to be this successful, and therefore didn't take particular care with license matters. We thought that we had more than enough public understanding and goodwill not to have to bother about it until it mattered. Now that it does matter very much, we ask you please to indulge us with that understanding and goodwill. Again, please see Wikipedia-L, where we have been going over various points of view on the issue and where it should soon, I hope, be resolved. --LMS

LMS, thank you for confirming that Wikipedia content has been publicly released under the GFDL. But you might agree that there is a considerable misunderstanding what this really implies. I will join the mailing list.

HannesHirzel

I just want to say, that even though it may not be obvious because of what I've said or not said elsewhere, that I have full faith in LMS and Jimbo that they will fully resolve all of these issues to everyone's satisfaction.

I'm only disappointed that they're leaving up the link to the table while these issues are being resolved. I'd be much happier if they simply stated in

"Note about Wikipedia's use of the GNU Free Documentation License":

 * All Wikipedia content is covered by the GNU Free Documentation License. The details necessary for proper licensing under the GFDL are being discussed right now on Wikipedia-L (see also /Workshop).

--TheCunctator

First: LMS, thanks for updating the page. It makes me feel much better, and I think it will really help people understand what's happening and perhaps increase participation on the mailing list.

Second: I feel that singling me out on the /Workshop page is a little unnecessary; after all, that note isn't included on all the articles that have been largely the work of one person. Instead of singling me out, you could have de-biased any content you consider partisan. But I don't feel personally attacked by you doing so.

 * I'm glad you don't feel personally attacked, and I totally understand that you feel the edit was a little unnecessary. To clarify, I thought that note was necessary because the page is written in an authoritative tone, as if you're simply stating the facts, in the context of a project in which very many pages are collaborative entries.  This could easily lead to people concluding that the entry was some sort of community consensus, when it isn't.  In fact, however, as you'll surely admit, you are almost the exclusive author of the material and you are a strong partisan who might or might not be stating the facts fairly.  That's very important for new people to realize, I think.  It's also extremely important for them to realize that most of the debate is going on elsewhere. --LMS

 * At the moment I'm the almost the exclusive author, but that's totally arbitrary. It's part of Wikipedia--it's meant to be edited by everyone. I'm hoping that it would be. Of course, if you actively discourage people from doing so, then they won't. And you state that I "might or might not be stating the facts fairly". Why not just encourage people to edit it? I'm not trying to compete with the mailing list, to which I've contributed (but the discussion on the mailing list seems to have stopped); the page is for the type of thing that Wikipedia is better at than a mailing list, for trying to establish a neutral brief of the issues; in this case, of what is necessary for Wikipedia to comply with the language of the GFDL; it's really not about which invariant sections we should have, etc. The page should allow people to be informed debaters on the mailing list. And "The fact that it is written mainly by a partisan does not, of course, mean that it is necessarily a biased presentation of the issues." is a pretty subtle jab, since "partisan" is a synonym for "biased person". You might understand how that feels if someone said (and this is only for example) "The fact that Larry Sanger is in charge of Wikipedia does not, of course, mean that he will necessarily mess it up." There's a pretty strong implication in that sentence structure.

 * And you repeatedly call me a partisan; by the same token, you're a partisan, but noone's calling you that.

 * In short, I really wish that instead of singling me out, you'd consider rewriting what you wrote to some less personal disclaimer like your summary on the main page: "It is not an official workshop, and discussion of the issues raised on the page have been and will be conducted on Wikipedia-L." I could be incorrect, but that seems (IMHO) to cover anything very important for new people to realize.

--TheCunctator

Third: On the main page you wrote: "Jimbo Wales confirms that Stallman agreed that the license permits this". Was this a formal agreement, or just a conversation? Did Stallman say that the license permitted the exact license instructions page or did he just say that the license permits something of the sort?

 * I am reporting only what Jimbo has said on Wikipedia-L (and separately to me quite a while ago). You'll have to ask him for the details. --LMS

As it now stands it's not clear. --TheCunctator

It was a casual conversation. I asked if we could use the Invariant Section to implement a linkback requirement, and he indicated that we could. Basically the rule for invariant sections is that they are secondary sections, i.e. not ABOUT the content of the article, for example the invariant section of a math article can't talk about math. It can be almost anything else, especially dealing with the relationship between the content, ownership, commercial aspects, etc.

I second the request that we try to hold meta-discussions on the mailing list.

Cunctator, I have a public request of you. Would you please stop writing about the license issue on the wiki, so that we can focus the debate in one place, namely the mailing list? Your views will receive more than a fair hearing there. --LMS

 * Some of us aren't on the mailing list and don't intend to be. Is it archived somewhere so that we can stay abreast of developments? Thanks.

 * You can find a link to the mailing list archives on Wikipedia-L. --Stephen Gilbert

 * Thanks again. Appreciated.

I'd like to emphasize that I'm not at all against the inclusion of a reference when the wikipedia content is used on another website. However I think that the inclusion of the 'RecentChanges' and the 'FAQ' link is not necessary and instead a link to the GNU FDL is necessary. As it is the case with nupedia.

And besides that the colors and the form of the table should not be fixed. HannesHirzel

Question for Larry and Jimbo
A simple question: Larry and Jimbo, would you two be open to using another open documentation license other than GNU for Wikipedia?

Regarding LDP
I am collection editor at the Linux Documentation Project. I have a question about a licensing issue and comment about the linkback proposal.

First, we don't have any plans to mirror or republish Wikipedia content directly, but I am thinking about how the two projects might complement each other. We are the canonical source for Linux documentation, but it is hard work keeping such a huge amount (400+ documents, a dozen book-length) of documentation maintained by an all volunteer staff with almost no hierarchical organization.

We have a good many documents under the GFDL, and we serve six million pages a month, not counting the local document installs on every major distribution. We certainly both have the same goals, except that we're specialized.

I posted two HOWTOs under Linux Documentation Project. They are both on relatively specialized fields (Beowulf and SMP). They're both GFDL. Does this present any legal problems for you?

I'm also working on ScrollServer, which is basically a small web service that runs on your local machine, serving html over http. It serves documents from the ScrollKeeper database, which the new Gnome and KDE help browsers serve from also. I want flexibility in how the linkback is presented. For instance, I don't want a table requirement. I will make a good effort to drive traffic to Wikipedia, because that is where the documentation will be improved. I just want control over the presentation -- including the ability to view it in a console browser, which was the motivation for doing ScrollServer in the first place.

Please just require the statement and linkback. --Dmerrill

Just remember - not all formats (eg: plain text, dead tree) allow linkback. It shouldn't be a legal requirement to have the exact format: just a proper citation including URL. Dave McKee

New GNU Licensed Project - Need opinion
Hey, there is a new collaboratively written blook that has GNU license. It explores public issues and current US foreign policy obstacles. Do you guys think it is good enough to add to the list? its www.ourblook.com. Please advise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.201.13.150 (talk) 04:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Disambiguition
Maybe it would be a good idea to create a disambiguition page for GFDL which redirects to this page. GFDL also can stand for Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Laboratory for which an article already exists. Gulliveig 08:55, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Que significa desambiguacion. Llevo meses tratando de comprender. Perdón, hello fr Kymberly 62 (talk) 08:35, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

debian-legal conclusion
Has debian-legal finally concluded that FDL with IS is non-free? The last that I heard, it was still a matter of some debate; although things certainly seemed to be headed to that conclusion, I'm surprised that it's already been reached. In particular, is the FSF's documentation for emacs being moved to ? -- Toby Bartels 21:17, 7 Sep 2003 (UTC)

 * They had a survey, which showed (AFAICT) that the majority concluded that GFDL was incompatible with the DSFG *even without Invariant Sections*. In particular, they seem to regard the "anti-DMCA" provisions (cannot use technical measures to prevent further copying and viewing of copies you make or distribute) to be non-free. Martin 23:41, 7 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Damienthorne524@gmail.com www.onouownbaltimore.org nathaniel.mcfadden@senate.state www.loc.gov Talking books topics www.cbsbaltilmore.com /www.wjz.com info@prattlibrary.org mail@stattormey.org tonywz21214@aol.com Talmadge.Branch@house.state.md.us www.cbsbaltilmore.com Damienthorne524 (talk) 00:12, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Using GFDL materials with the GFDL as an invariant section?
I was thinking about including some material from some GNU manuals in several Wikipedia articles. While these materials are released under the GNU Free Documentation License, they use the GFDL itself as an invariant section. Two things: Thank you, -- Mattworld 22:04, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
 * 1) Isn't the GFDL essentially an invariant section already? You need to include it with any copy of the text. Why is it necessary to include it as an invariant section?
 * 2) Can I post the material at all, and if so, do I need to include a note such as: This material requires the GNU Free Documentation License as an invariant section, or is that already implied?

 * I've read the discussion below, but I'm not able to see any answer to the question in general (i.e. how to include GFDL texts with invariant sections, front matter etc). The copyright page seems to me to contradict itself: on the one hand, you may not submit works with invariant sections, on the other, you must retain any invariant sections (etc).  The only conclusion I can reach is that you cannot in general reuse GFDL works for the Wikipedia(?) -- Ketil

 * Legally a puzzler, but the first question should be: which parts of GNU manuals are encyclopedic? All the bits I can think of are inappropriate for Wikipedia; we should be summarizing the manuals if anything, not dumping them in here verbatim. Stan 22:23, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
 * There was a history section in one of the manuals that would have fit perfectly in Wikipedia; however, I now plan to summarize it, so this isn't that big of an issue. I'm still slightly curious as to the answer, though. -- Mattworld 22:34, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)

 * Invariant sections aren't welcome in Wikipedia (though you're welcome to separately distribute a derivitive of a Wikipedia article that does include invariant sections). I'm mighty curious now about the docs... which are they? --Brion 23:37, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)

 * In this case though, I think it might not be a problem. You already have to distribute an invariant copy of the GFDL along with any GFDL-licensed material, so including the GFDL itself as an invariant section isn't actually adding any new restrictions--it's just being redundant and restating the same restriction in a different way. --Delirium 01:44, Oct 15, 2003 (UTC)

 * A GFDL text can be redistributed under a later version of the GFDL. If you put a copy of the license in an invariant section, that that older version will need to be distributed with the text even if you're putting it out under a later version. Can somebody please point out the actual texts under discussion so more than speculation can take place here? --Brion 00:50, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)

 * At the GNU site When should a section be invariant? it states that the GFDL is an invariant section [see § 4(H)]. If it is an earlier version of the GFDL that says it can also be released under a later version of the GFDL (i.e. originally ver. 1.1 released under ver. 1.2) then can not the older version be replaced by the newer version as the newer version is already an invariant section in a GFDL work? If it is only released only under ver. 1.1 of the GFDL (does not specifically state that it may be released under a later version) then would that make it incompatible with the GFDL here which is of a "later version" variety? Most of the changes in the later version seems to be just clarifications of the earlier version; is there any reference some one can point to that states how the two versions are incompatible and not just clarifications that have the same legal import? The only two I can find are (1) the five principal author listing (all the authors must be listed in 1.1; this is clearly not problem with Wikipedia as the history pages list all the authors of a particular GFDL work) and (2) 1.2. has the optional warranty disclaimers added so 1.1 is just 1.2 without any disclaimers in that regard; so maybe there is backward compatibility if no warranty disclaimers are used. In the license it is stated that if a use of the license invokes the language "any later version" that a user can decide which version to re-release the material under; as the GFDL is already an invariant section; this indicates that you can release 1.1 under 1.2 even if 1.1 is listed separately as an invariant section because you cannot take away any of the rights granted in the GFDL under § 9 (i.e. the right to use a later version cannot be revoked). BTW if no version number is listed the GFDL (§ 10) states any version can be used; so there is an argument that by making the GFDL an invariant section it then invokes any version of the GFDL even if the version used to release the document does not state that any version can be used. Thus, as a rule, a general statement that the "GNU Free Documentation License" is an invariant section (without reference to the version number) would appear to imply that one can use any version of the license — in such a case it does not appear necessary to provide a copy of the predecessor license as a separate invariant section. — Alex756 05:59, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
 * Some seemingly minor thing - if a material is released under v.1.1, one can name history section as "page history" or "document history," but v.1.2 seems to prohibit that (see at the definition section.) So, some people might prefer ver. 1.1, indeed. Also, isn't there a problem if English wikipedia's article is translated into other wikipedia that uses a previous version of the GFDL? Tomos 22:41, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)

some questions about compliance

 * The ver 1.2 of GFDL seems to indicate that Page history section should really named "History." (See the "APPLICABILITY AND DEFINITIONS" part)
 * I am not sure if it is GFDL compliant when a page is modified and the names of the authors are not listed at the title page. Of course, the title "page" does not exist for Wikipedia. But GFDL specifically mention to such a case, and says that we should use some space between the title and the main text. So it seems that the strict compliance would be to display names of authors after the articles' title. Currently, we have authors' names in page history section.
 * I am not sure if it is GFDL compliant when a person A uploads an image to a wikipedia, and a person B uses that image in an article. Is the article "modified version" of the image in GFDL's sense? I am really not sure...

Tomos 22:41, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Translations
How do translated works fall under this? --207.103.218.175, 21:37, 12 Feb 2004
 * See Modifications, i.e. a translation is a modification of the work. 71.193.2.115 (talk) 20:31, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

History of the GFDL
When was the GFDL "born"? Guaka 22:14, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * The article could do with some history. As it currently stands it does not even mention the earlier version 1.1. I have tried to track down some history about the license, but there doesn't seem to be much on line. -- Popsracer 13:22, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Ean Schuessler's invariant section
I've removed Ean Schuessler's contributions, as he was only offering them on the condition that we include an undesirable invariant section. Matthew Woodcraft 20:20, 29 May 2004 (UTC)

Matthew Woodcraft's variation of my invariant section
I still contend that my invariant section was removed illegally. To legally remove my intellectual property you would have to roll the state of the document back to a previous version that was free of the invariant section attached to my input. We are still talking about my invariant section and it is still referenced in the history, therefore you have not "removed" my IP and associated invariant section but have rather masked it behind a confusing web interface that makes access more difficult. This entire site is a composite document and unless it deletes "undesirable" IP with "undesirable" invariant sections Wikipedia is still in violation.

Please take note that my original invariant section was intended entirely to demonstrate the folly of the GNU "Free" Documentation License and not add any useful value in and of itself. Ean Schuessler 19:50, 21 October 2004 (Dallas Texas Time!)

 * Ean, if you think the intermediate versions should be removed from Wikipedia's database, you should ask the administrators to do that and see what they say. They're unlikely to be reading this talk page. Matthew Woodcraft

 * Matthew, after further analysis I see that the copyright of Wikipedia disallowed invariant sections at the time of my prank. I apologize for my inability to read the instructions. One might make the argument, however, that you should be required to "click-through" the wikipedia usage agreement before adding content. A side note at best. I'm just making excuses.

Using the information
At the least I'd like to see a link in the article to something that covers this assuming there is such a place but....

The FDL seems like it was designed for software manuals. In that case it makes sense. There is most likely very little data in the manual that is useful outside of the software the manual is for.

But, for an encyclopedia ????? What consistituts reproducing the document? If my 8 year old son is doing a report on Nebraska and he gets info from the Wikipedia is his report now FDLed? If not, why? If he includes a quote from the Wikipedia or just adds the Wikipedia to his bibilography is his report now FDLed?
 * For the quote, no because it falls under US fair use guidelines. For the bibliography, no because copyright protects expression, not content. Superm401 22:24, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I may sounds silly but I could read nothing in the FDL the specifically gives permission to re-use the info in the document outside of the document without making that info also FDLed.

 * That permission is unnecessary as no copyright protects against others using information from your work. It only protects the exact way the information is expressed.  Of course, it is preferable to cite your sources even when you copy no text from them.  However, this is an ethical, not a legal issue.  Superm401 22:24, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Like I mentioned, this makes sense for a software manual, even an example that might be useful for another piece of software being lifted out the some FDLed manual I can see why the FDL would frown on that without the other manual becoming FDLed as well but an Encylopedia is a different thing. It would seem to me under the current wording of the FDL that I should never read anything on the Wikiepedia with out full knowledge that any info gained from reading it cannot be reproduced else where without making that new thing FDLed.

I couldn't go researching this history of the middle east on the Wikipedia for an article in the New York Times without making either that article or that entire edition of the New York Times be FDLed. I'm sure some of you will see that as a good thing but an Encyclopedia with those kinds of restrictions is not really useful outside.

As for precident on not sharing info there are plently of private reports with specific licenses that require you not to share the info. The TRST reports from NPDworld.com for example. So the idea that the info on the Wikipedia might not be useable in general because of it's license is definiately a possibility.

I think this needs to be spelled out somewhere. Is the info useable without restriction or not? If I research something here and post the results of my research on my website is my website now FDLed? If not, where is the specific exclusion for that kind of reproduction?

 * There is a huge difference between copying the text and copying the information. If you copy FDLed text into another text, that other text can only be published under the terms of the FDL. But using the information is no problem, just as with any other encyclopedia or text (unless it contains patented algorithms or stuff like that). Also, if you would copy text from Wikipedia into an article for the NYT or a book, or anything else, I think that only implies that the article that contains the line should be FDLed. Not the entire work. Just like including the Wikipedia no a CD doesn't mean that the entire CD should be FDLed. G-u-a-k-@ 20:18, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

mirrors and attribution
Hi - I've asked this question a couple of times in discussions of a specific WP mirror site, wikiverse.org (see Mirrors and forks) but maybe this is a more appropriate place. Question: for a site using WP text to comply with GFDL, if they have each article on a separate page as we do, do they have to credit Wikipedia on each page? Or is a single mention of Wikipedia on the site's main page adequate? Based on the wording of Copyrights - "a direct link back to the article satisfies our author credit requirement" - it seems to me that each article is supposed to have some sort of acknowledgement. Yes? —Hob←Talk 03:23, 2004 Aug 15 (UTC)

Invariant Sections Question
I was reading about the GFDL and some of the arguments against using it. The section about Invariant Sections seemed particularly interesting. My understanding of it is that if a portion of a document licensed under the GFDL is labelled an Invariant Section it cannot be modified or removed from any subsequent versions of the document, i.e. it will be included, unaltered, with the document in question forever. Am I right in this interpretation or am I completely misunderstanding the license (quite possible as I am nowhere near an expert on legal issues)? Basically, I'm wondering if a vandal could post an Invariant Section to Wikipedia and therefore make it be part of the encyclopedia forever? I'm sure that can't be how it works, but thats what it sounds like to me. Where am I going wrong? Some of the discussion above seemed to be about similar questions but I didn't see any consensus... Any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks - biggins 19:36, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * Wikipedia does not allow invariant sections. Adding an invariant section would be in violation of our copyright policy so should be removed in the same way as any other violating text. Angela. 00:31, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)

 * In any case, rolling back from the version with the invariant section (B) to an earlier version without it (A) ought to allow you to continue to derive from that earlier version without including the invariant section. The really tricky question is whether you could use material that had been added to document B to create its derivative (C) before rollback.  I think if you did use that later material you would be bound by the terms added by the invariant section and would be reimporting them into your new document (D) even after rollback.  Does that make sense? (No user name; 20 Oct 2004)

Invariant Sections, etc
note: To keep things simple, we don't use Invariant Sections, Front-Cover Texts, or Back-Cover Texts

er, what are invariant sections, front-cover texts and back cover texts? Dunc_Harris|☺ 18:57, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * Stuff the GFDL talks about. -- orthogonal 18:59, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * They come from book/journal publishing. Sections of a journal that are the same in every issue (editorial board, instructions to authors, that sort of thing) and the text on inside and outside of the front and back cover. Filiocht 07:58, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * No, that's incorrect. They're defined in the license.--Bcrowell 04:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Fair use and GFDL
From the article: However in some specific cases, commercial re-uses may be fair use and in that case such materials do not need to be licensed to fall within the GFDL if such fair use is covered by all potential subsequent uses.

It is not possible for all potential subsequent uses to be fair use. I am not sure if this is what the above sentence says but English is not my mother tongue. I believe fair use claim for distribution is valid (if it is valid at all) regardless of subsequent uses. Could someone clarify this section, I would do it myself but a native speaker would do it better. at 0 22:08, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

So quoted material should not be used on wikipedia? How about documentation of material learned at one point from textbooks? I'd really like to help, but I'm not sure what exactly I'm allowed to do.

BIG QUESTION: Moral Rights, Wikipedia and the FDL?
I haven't gone through the FDL properly yet but I wonder: how does it deal with moral rights? Has the situation of a Wikipedia contributor deciding to be difficult and exerting their moral rights to attribution or (God forbid) integrity been anticipated and dealt with? Is this a potential SCO code situation that could cause Wikipedia real difficulties? The Wikipedia enty on moral rights says they can be waived in "some jurisdictions". Are there any where they can't be waived? Is there an explicit waiver clause? Is one needed? (No user name; 20 October 2004)

 * In the U.S., there is no statutory basis for "moral rights" for text and I am unaware of any case law supporting such a concept. Even in Europe, where there is a statutory guarantee of moral rights, I think it most unlikely that a case could be made, because contributors know exactly how their contribution will be utilized and attributed before they contribute.  I think that the most defensible construction is that the Wikipedia text is in its entirety a collaborative work with shared authorship, and that the joint authors have agreed to GFDL licensing.

 * IANAL and my view is not widely shared in the Wikipedia community. There have been no serious tests of the GFDL in the courts and so many things could change.  Because Wikipedia is a worldwide project and because there isn't any case law on copyleft or on massive collaboration, anything is possible.  I would expect the courts to rule in such a way as to preserve the project, because Wikipedia is now big enough, important enough, and well enough liked that there would be hell to pay if the courts shut it down over a technicality.

 * Images are another matter because in most cases the creative effort can be clearly attributed to one person.

 * uc 13:28, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * :o)IAAL (albeit trainee) and an IP one at that. I'm also the same anonymous user that posted the original question.  I don't know the answer to it but it's something that should be thought about very carefully.  The size and usefulness of Wikipedia may not be enough to outweigh these rights if they do exist and someone tries to exert them.  Although it can be difficult for authors to exert moral rights and it might seem an unlikely situation, I expect it's something Wikipedia would want certainty on rather than taking a 'hope and pray' approach.  The 'mercilessly edited and redistributed at will' notice on the edit page may be there for that reason?  It doesn't seem to mention the right to attribution though.

 * The size and "importance" and the amount by which it is "well liked" may not be enough to save Wikipedia, especially if what I have heard about the lawsuits (especially by the European Union against Microsoft is correct. Brianjd

A couple things to keep in mind. i) The GFDL was adopted by the project early on and in recognition that it is not perfect, but in consideration that it would have been difficult at best to do any better at that time and with the limited resources then available. ii) There is probably nothing more that can be done now than what is already done. iii) All this pales by comparison to the fact that the project faces legal exposure regarding DMCA violations (of infringing materal posted from elsewhere that hasn't been caught and of supposed "fair use" material where an affirmative defense would have to be mounted) and libel. iv)  In light of that, "hope and pray" is probably not the worst approach.

You might consider sharing your thoughts with User:Alex756 who is an attorney and has been involved with the project at times, including some pro bono work. I believe there is also a mailing list for Wikipedia legal issues.

uc 16:22, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * The wikilegal-l mailing list is defunct and has been replaced by foundation-l for matters relating generally to the Wikimedia Foundation. Legal issues can be discussed there, but the list is not dedicated specifically to that subject. --Michael Snow 18:12, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I don't think Wikipedia as a project has a particular problem with moral rights (that is, the right of an author to be credited with creating a work, even if he has sold the copyright to someone else). The GFDL requires that the names of authors are preserved, and we keep a full record of exactly who wrote what in the history of each article.

The problem with crediting authors is more an issue for people reusing our content under the GFDL - the problem being that reproducing the history section could take up more space than the actual article in many cases - a real problem for paper copies. The practical solution used by people who reuse our content is to link back to the Wikipedia article, so that readers can look there to see who wrote it. It's an imperfect solution, but one that I think fulfils the spirit of the requirements of the GFDL and (european) copyright law in crediting authors. Neither copyright law nor the GFDL ever anticipated that there could be so many authors to a work that giving credit to all the authors could become a real burden.

Enchanter 17:25, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)

Moral rights are generally taken far more seriously with respect to works that are highly creative in nature (e.g. art, music, literature). For these works, moral rights reflect a strong social sense that the creativity is associated with the mind of the creator, who is therefore entitled to a say in how the work is presented. Due to the nature of an encyclopedia (do you ever look to see who actually wrote the article in other encyclopedias?), particularly one with policies like NPOV and a highly collaborative model, the amount of creativity associated with any individual author is far smaller. In this context, the claim of moral rights appears less strong. While not guaranteed, I consider it eminently possible that a court dealing with someone trying to assert moral rights against Wikipedia might respond that those rights entitle the person to nothing more than what we already give them (attribution in page history plus the ability to edit the page again). --Michael Snow 18:12, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

A messieurs les Anglais !
GNU FDL GNU FDL GNU FDL GNU FDL

POURRIEZ VOUS MESSIEURS LES ANGLAIS TRADUIRE LES PREMIERS DE FACONS OFFICIEL CE TEXTE EN FRANCAIS ? SVP! MERCI!

 * There's a French translation of the GFDL at . Angela. 15:13, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)

I removed this bit:
 * The Debian project no longer uses the GNU FDL for this, and possibly other, reasons.

I don't think Debian rejects the GFDL because it permits adding invariant sections: BSD licenses also allow this, and Debian is happy with those. Matthew Woodcraft
 * "Happy" is an overstatement. Many Debian developers and users are in fact uncomfortable with the "mandatory advertising" clause of the old 4-clause BSD license.  Some because it's GNU GPL-incompatible, others because they're uncomfortable with mandatory text of any sort apart from copyright notices, warranty disclaimers, and license texts.  There have been moderately successful efforts over the years by the Debian Project to persuade contributors and upstream licensors to switch away from the 4-clause BSD license (as the Regents of the University of California did for BSD itself many years ago).

Overly broad DRM clause
I know that license debates can be heated and I stayed clear of them for now. Nevertheless, the main page had some pecularities under the heading 'Overly broad DRM clause'.

To say or suggest that the FSF has `a hidden agenda to discourage the use of proprietary software' is absurd. This smells like the average conspiracy theory. The FSF is not known for hidden agendas. Instead, they state it very clearly: the FSF discourages the use of proprietary software. So, yes, the FSF has an agenda but certainly not hidden.

Aside from this error, I did not understand the criticism of the quote that is given under this heading. I've dug a bit in the history of this page and I see that the arguments given in the main article are rephrased from the external links. However, the external links were perfectly clear to me, whereas the orginal article left me with confusion.

It seems that three separate points were being made.

 * The first criticism seems directed at the restrictions on local copies of GDFL licensed documents. People are worried that you cannot save a local copy in a proprietary format even if the original stays available in an open format.

 * A problem with a broad interpretation of `technical measures' Reading the reference "why you shouldn't use the GNU FDL", I also see mention of technical measures, where this mention is used as a clarification of the former argument. Therefore, it seems bogus as an additional criticism.

 * The last concern is about using proprietary software or file formats with build-in DRM features to distribute the content. Indeed, this is a restriction of the GFDL.

I've tried to clarify the text on the first and third point, while dropping the second. Furthermore, I've given the external links a more prominent place, since they are worth a read.

Jan van Male 18:37, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Public domain
What's the difference between GFDL and PD images? There seems to be a strong similarity between the 2. --SuperDude 00:45, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Try the Reference Desk. Tyrenius 04:56, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * PD or public Domain documents can be used for derivitive works, they do not need a liscense. GFDL are specfically NOT PD, or public Domain documents, as their liscense must be accompanied with the work, and you cannot deny others the right to copy, distrubute and/or modify them. PD documents can become non PD documents through derivitive works. GFDL documents cannot. Read the Richard Stallman article for context. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.193.2.115 (talk) 20:52, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Using GNU FDL images
When I'm using a GNU FDL image in a commercially published article I wrote on my own, do I have to GNU-FDL my article, as a GNU FDL image has been used? --Abdull 09:20, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

GFDL & public domain
Is there a difference between liscensing something under the GFDL, and releasing it into the public domain? If so, what? Which one is less restrictive to future users of the work? Where should I use one or the other if I want to release something? Can anyone help? Trevdna 15:25, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

GNU Free Documentation Licence is obviously more restricted than public domain : public domain means no licence and no copyright, so something with a licence is into the movement of restriction and control, and in fact as nothing to do with freedom (even if the term free is part of the name GFDL). I think we should put into question the free nature of Wikipedia. Is Wikipedia really a free encyclopedia ? And what is GFDL ? What is copyleft ? It seems obvious that copyleft is copyright. Copyleft is from the same nature of copyright, born from the frustation that others do not comply with your demands. Demanding freedom is precisely manifesting lack of freedom, you don't need to demand freedom when freedom is. And what happens when this demands are not fullfilled ? Frustation. And action born from frustration is action born from the irrationnal, from the conflict, and gives raise also itself to the complexity of conflict. To understand what means giving up control, we must understand the nature of control, which expresses itself into the copyleft as well as the copyright. As long as the contents is published with a licence, whatever it is, these contents are not free. Because licensing is the very negation of freedom. Licenses try to regulate, to control, and implies complexity, lawyers, courts and so one. Freedom means the complete end of ownership and control, both inner and outer control. As far as I'm concerned, I publish contents into my own website into public domain, and then copy this content inside this "free" encyclopedia, to avoid GFDL constraints. Public domain is the world of anonymousness, and authentic collaboration : here lies freedom. Licensing is not freedom, it is only a new kind of rules and laws men are building in their attempt to grasp freedom. Freedom can not be jailed into a text, explaining what freedom is. So ask yourself if Wikipedia is a free encyclopedia or not : understanding the nature of freedom will give you a clear and lucid view of facts, independently of what someone says on these facts. And understanding can be here, when freedom of exploring such a question is here. Is there freedom to explore this question : is Wikipedia a free encyclopedia ? Or do you stating that Wikipedia is free, killing the question ? -- 28 December 2005

Copyleft like in the GPL, another GNU license, ensures that code is always free. Otherwise that same code can be taken, embraced/extended, and then extinguished so that it's worthless and the proprietary code wins and profits from it's destruction-- making it NON-FREE. I'm sure something similar goes for books.

Using GFDL soures in WP?
Can someone wikilink the appropriate WP policy on GFDL sources in WP, and add this to the article?

We have a copyvio dispute at discrete Hankel transform, because the article contains source taken from the GSL manual, which is GFDL'ed. However, the GSL GFDL has "invariant front and back cover texts" which were not preserved, leading to the copyvio problem. linas 17:18, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Nomination: Article Improvement Drive (AID)
This article has been nominated for an "AID", which could end it in becoming a featured article, but the person who nominated it didn't announce the nomination very much, so 5 vote-getting days have been lost. AID nominees need to get a certain number of votes each week, otherwise they get put in the rejected pile.

To vote for this article to receive an AID, go to Article Improvement Drive, and add your name. Gronky 18:24, 30 January 2006 (UTC) (updated 3 February 2006)

Comprehensibility
Could someone provide a summary of the pertinent subject matter of the Article reformulated in the English language, said summary being intended for the benefit of such readers as who happen not to be intellectual property lawyers? Lambiam Talk 00:06, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

--I concur with this, I have read this a few times, and there are a lot of terms that are special vocabulary, and I have difficulty understanding any of it at all.Kei Yuki (talk) 06:48, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

What is strictly meant by 'text'
This is the material at the end of a page I just looked at -

"All text is available under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License."

Just what is 'text' - the document, which is a paragraph and an image, or just the alphabetic text? --Dumarest 15:15, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I am not expert, but I would say an image could only be considered text if it is an image of text. See text.
 * I agree, but if the image were of text, then presumably the image itself is not available, but the text in the image is (i.e. it can be typed out and then reproduced). This is of course a legal nicety.Tyrenius 04:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Pictures under the GFDL
Hi! I was just wondering on the restrictions of this license in terms of commercial use. Are photos released under the GFDL allowed to be used for commercial purposes without notifying the photographer? Thanks, --Fir0002 08:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes, provided that you comply with the licence's terms. The licence is not too difficult to read. Gronky 10:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

You have to release it under the same license but you can make a profit from it. HighInBC 19:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I also want to use some pictures from here, but the terms of the GFDL seem ridicuously onerous. A full copy of that huge document just to use a picture in a leaflet? Am I reading it wrong, or is GFDL completely inappropriate for pictures? Ibiggun 22:57, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm glad the license is not too difficult to read, but I am having trouble understanding it. I came here to try to find out how this license applies to images, and the article seems to clearly state that it is a document license, not an image license.  "The license was designed for manuals, textbooks, other reference and instructional materials, and documentation which often accompanies GPL software. However, it can be used for any text-based work, regardless of subject matter."

 * If you use an image licensed under GFDL, "A GNU FDL work can quickly be encumbered because a new, different, title must be given and a list of previous titles must be kept. This could lead to the situation where there are a whole series of title pages, and dedications, in each and every copy of the book if it has a long lineage. These pages cannot ever be removed, at least not until the work enters the public domain after copyright expires." it appears you have to maintain all this information with every copy.  So, if you use an image on a pamphlet, for example, all of this information must be included.  If you download and frame an image, legally you cannot do so without also including this license, it seems.  I finally simply asked the photographer if I could use his image, and he freely gave me permission to do so, but I still don't understand how this applies to images.  If it's "not too difficult to read" why doesn't it include any information in the article about images?  It's all about documents.  Ibiggun seems right to me, it's "completely inappropriate for pictures."  KP Botany 20:19, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Serious?
The largest project using the license is Wikipedia, a general-purpose encyclopedia, but the license is not particularly popular among more serious projects.

Why is Wikipedia not a serious project? I don't have an alternative wording, but I don't think this one fits. -- 132.68.249.100 21:17, 7 Sep 2006 (UTC)
 * Is the above statement a POV? I feel that explicit reasons on why this license is not particularly popular among more serious projects and citations are needed here to verify the statement. -- S iva1979 Talk to me  17:49, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Are you guys clueless??
I was trying to upload a picture to a Wikipedia article, with the permission of the owner of the original page, and, frankly, I've purely given up. Are you guys clueless? What the hell is with this huge, elaborate rigamarole of permissions and pages and pages of liscence agreement and garbage?

This is just way way too complicated. I mean, I don't mind reforming permissions and copyrights, but you want to make it SIMPLER, not adding layers and layers of complexity.

The language you WANT to have for Wikipedia can be done in about six words. "This image is used with permission."

Period. That's it. Kill the four screens full of legal mumbo jumbo and crap, I don't want to wade through it.

Geoffrey.landis 21:12, 16 September 2006 (UTC)Geoff

 * No, we are not clueless. The reason for all of the "legal mumbo jumbo" is that we (as long-time Wikipedia contributors) have been burned enough times and enough clueless individuals are uploading stuff to Wikipedia without permission that we are trying to scare the c**@!#$ out of anybody who wants to violate copyright laws or even tries to upload a borderline image.  This is not to discourage legitimate contributions but rather to make sure that what is uploaded can be used and used widely.

 * This has been a gradual process of becoming increasingly blunt on disclaimers, and pushing harder to be more "legit" on some of the borderline content. I will admit that I've made a few mistakes in the past and uploaded content that perhaps didn't have explicit permission.  And that content was deleted.  That is essentially all we are trying to say is that if you upload something without documentable proof that permission has been granted explicitly with terms compatable with GFDL content, it will deleted.  Likely to be sooner than later as well.

 * For myself, I wish it were so simple as to have only the six words you use above. Unfortunately we live in an incredibly litigious society and Wikipedia has become a nice target for lawsuits already.  There is a full-time legal team even now (well, many part-time and pro-bono lawyers helping out to give the equivalent) that is defending against nearly constant legal assults against Wikipedia and other Wikimedia projects.  What you are reading is the unfortunate result of many years of trying to develop this project and bruises from people who don't care.  --Robert Horning 09:21, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I too am trying to upload a third party image. It's been rather perplexing, so I agree with the author, the process could be simpler or friendlier, have a nicer interface, flow more to the benefit of the user -
 * Hello, I'm the new friendly wiki upload guide! I help you upload things.  So, what would you like to upload?  Please choose a category from the following easy to understand list -

 * A - some porn
 * I'm sorry you can't do that although please send all files to $%^$^%$the_pronmeister$%^$^%$ and he will study them closely just in case. Click button A below to begin this process.

 * B - some photos you've just seen on the web
 * well, it's very possible, please get permission from the author of these images and come back. Then we'll talk all about licences and ask you some more questions.  Please click Button B below.

 * C - a scan of something that you thought was interesting, like a rare manuscript you bought at a market stall recently at surprisingly little cost or the last Dear John letter you received.
 * Note, scans of your bottom belong in category A, but are generally not considered appropriate. Therefore please do not submit them.  For all other scans please click Button C.

 * D - your very own piccie perhaps of your cute cat or similar
 * great! Now we'll talk about
 * i: possible relevance of your cat to wikipedia, and
 * ii:licencing, tho not in the same way as for answer B or C so please click Button D.

Something like that. Hakluyt bean 23:08, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

help: minimum verbiage required for gfdl on image (name firstborn child!)
Hi,

I want to ask a non-US semi-governmental website to release an image under GFDL. I'm not sure how good their English may be; I need brevity and clarity when I ask....

SO:What is the minimum yet still legal verbiage they would need to put on the page to make it kosher?? [Or is verbiage on the page itself even enough?]

I want to state these things very clearly in the request letter... I deeply appreciate your help. Give me the correct answer, and I will name my firstborn child after you...--Ling.Nut 17:29, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

See the Copyrights section of the site for more information on getting permission for images to be licensed under the GFDL. --69.54.29.23 22:13, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Does this mean I have to name my kid 69.54.29.23? He'll get beat up every day in the playground! :-) Thanks.. --Ling.Nut 22:16, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

factually inaccurate external link
This: says the following:
 * Why You Shouldn't Use the GNU FDL
 * However, I have since been made aware of another issue. The GFDL says the following:
 * "You may not use technical measures to obstruct or control the reading or further copying of the copies you make or distribute."
 * This was intended to attack DRM systems, but it is far too broad. It applies to private copies made and not distributed. "Technical measures" is not defined. The natural interpretation includes activities like encrypting a copy, storing it on an encrypted filesystem, or even storing it on a file-sharing system with non-world-readable permissions. This is evidently not free.

That is such a wild misinterpretation of the FDL that it's absurd to keep this link in the article. We should not mislead our readers. "Private copies made and not distributed" is something the FDL doesn't care about. Since this is so glaringly inaccurate, I'm taking it out. Some other, factually sound criticism of the FDL would be welcome in its place. — coe l acan t a lk  — 20:34, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Then you should be getting rid of too, the "The "DRM" restriction"  is the first thing it talks about. --Benn Newman 02:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Huh? That doesn't say anything like "It applies to private copies made and not distributed.... The natural interpretation includes activities like encrypting a copy, storing it on an encrypted filesystem, or even storing it on a file-sharing system with non-world-readable permissions" or anything of the sort. That is what I have a problem with. The debian link seems to be talking about the DRM stuff with factual accuracy. — coe l acan t a lk  — 02:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I don't understand why you say it doesn't. The first numbered point from that section says, "it is not limited to the act of distribution (i.e., it applies to private copies as well)," and point three says in part, "as written, it would outlaw actions like changing the permission of a copy of the document on your machine, storing it on an encrypted file system, distributing a copy over an encrypted link" --Benn Newman 14:05, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

 * You're right. I'm sorry, I guess I completely failed in my comprehension. I'll go revert my deletion now. Thanks for clearing my head =) — coe l acan t a lk  — 22:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

GFDL 2.0
I have read the draft for the new GFDL 2.0. It mentions a GNU Wiki license. Does anyone know anything about this? Could it possibly be a way to make compatible with the CC-BY-SA license????? Does anyone know anything about any current effort to make these two similar licenses more compatible?--Bjw e bb (talk) 20:47, 29 December 2006 (UTC)


text:
Talk:SS Elingamite

Currency
Historical currency conversion based on applet at http://futureboy.homeip.net/fsp/dollar.fsp?quantity=17320+&currency=pounds&fromYear=1901 -- 222.152.82.150 14:41, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Wrong day of week
"Elingamite left Sydney early on Sunday morning, 5 November 1902" - that cannot be correct, that date wasn't a Sunday (but a Wednesday). I cannot fix this, as the linked sources claim yet another date... --Dnaber (talk) 10:37, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

title: Talk:SS Elingamite


text:
Wikipedia talk:Dealing with disruptive or antisocial editors/poll2

Dealing with trolls
Dealing with disruptive or antisocial editors/poll2 received 75% votes in favor, however it is unclear how to deal with the dissent. Where do we go from here? anthony (see warning) 16:08, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * I suspect that, if there were a clear method of desysopping, we'd get ortho's vote to change, maybe even one more. The problem is, until we have a clear policy for dealing with disruptive editors, there's a lot of guesswork for sysops concerning how they're supposed to behave, which makes most of them resist a clear desysopping policy, IMO.  So we may be at an impasse.  Can we somehow roll them both together and try and pass a double barreled policy? Jwrosenzweig 20:48, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * My objection was mainly based on the fact that we were been asked to give people powers to deal with a problem without any real idea of how big the problem is. Answer that question and then a sensible debate on what needs to be done can begin. Meanwhile, how can anyone judge what the best course of action might be? Filiocht 07:49, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * If you want 'real' facts, look no further than user:Raul654/Plautus to see the timeline of the most disruptive user ever. →Raul654 07:52, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes, this is one kind of fact, but what I really mean is how many users like this are there as a % of the total community. I suspect it is a tiny number, but have no way of knowing just now. If we legislate on the basis of hard cases, we'll make bad laws. Filiocht 08:11, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * If I had to guess, at any given time, there are probably no more than 4-6 users who are so disruptive that they are ban-worthy. The problem is, new ones appear as fast as we get rid of the older ones. →Raul654 08:15, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)
 * There are many more who are disruptive in a small way, often restricting their activities to particular small parts of Wikipedia which they hold on to viciously. I've encountered users who have wasted days of my time. Their only interest in Wikipedia may be to sustain a particular point of view in one or two articles. Eventually, I walked away. They won. There's so many other articles in Wikipedia that need work that one might as well let them have their say when their are worse articles around. Current dispute resolution process seems almost purposely clumsy, designed only for those who like nagivating legal procedures and are good at it. Meanwhile, the supposed Wikipedia policies are lies. They aren't enforced, and if you look closely at may of them, they seem to disappear. No personal attacks? They happen all the time. No POV supposedly. Supposedly a rule of only three reverts in 24 hours, but that's now vanished, maybe, sort of. Try to to cite supposed Wikipedia policy to stop someone who is stubborn and where it is in a minor article of little interest to most, but of great interest to two users to whose only regard for Wikipedia is as a platform for a particular, unnotable, fringe theory in one article. Filiocht's concern with numbers seems to me moot. If only a few people are being raped, then rape doesn't matter? What harm does anyone but a troll find in this proposed quick-alarm system that at least gives some substance to supposed policies that increasingly don't guide Wikipedia. No. I can't measure this. But either can Filiocht. With a two month trial we could perhaps measure it. What other way? Jallan 18:39, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think comparing this to rape is a little hysterical. You seem to be making the case that anyone who holds an opinion that is different to yours and whom you are unable to persuade is automatically 'disruptive'. Perhaps the cases that you are thinking of are, but you can perhaps see why some people are worried about where this kind of logic leads. However, I do totally agree that we need to strengthen sanctions against personal attacks, they are perhaps the single most damaging type of anti-social behavior we have, along with witch-hunting. Mark Richards 02:05, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * Comparison to rape hysterical? No. I am pointing out that numbers should not be an issue. We supposedly have a policy of personal attacks being totally forbidden. It is not enforced. You know this. Currently, the de facto practice is that personal attacks are quite acceptable here, as long as someone doesn't make too many personal attacks, and doen't make them against the wrong people, or both. The case I "seem to be making" is your strawman argument not mine. I am talking about obvious breaking of supposed rules. Yes, in some cases, I or someone else might be in error, the person in the wrong, or there may be no wrong. Fine. Under the proposed policy I would be quickly disabused. Case closed! I can't see why "some people are worried about where this kind of logic leads".  Jallan 14:28, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The comparison to rape is frankly insulting to rape victims. I still say that hard cases make bad laws and Jallan's intervention has reinforced my opinion. And yes, Mark Richards, there is probably more witch-hunting here than most would allow. Filiocht 11:12, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * The comparison was intended to be overstrong to indicate how bogus it is to be concerned only with numbers. Can you quantify your contention that "there is probably more witch-hunting here than most would allow"? The policy as proposed would seem to me to be equally effective against fuggheadedness of a witch-hunter type where that exists. Do you not want witch-hunting to be cut down if you believe it is a problem? Jallan 14:28, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * Yes, which is why I voted against the proposal. Let's just imagine its Chriatmas and very few people are working here. Just me and three admins, in fact. They're all working on an article together and I stumble in. I find their version horribly POV and try to edit it, they label me disruptive and ultimately ban me before the holiday is over. Overstated, too, I admit, but if you can overstate, so can I. This is part of why this person is "worried about where this kind of logic leads". My concern with numbers is because they bring some objectivity and reduce the likelyhood of a bad knee-jerk reaction or the pushing through of something that serves the interests of a minority only. We have quite a good article on Internet trolls. It contains this sentence, which I think is worth pondering: However, since trollhunters (like trolls) are often conflict-seekers themselves, the loss usually is not on the part of the trollhunter; rather, the losers are the other forum-users who would have preferred that the conflict not emerge at all. My view is simple; don't feed them. Maybe there is no quick-hit solution. Filiocht 14:43, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * You provided no numbers for your somewhat weasel-worded claim that "there is probably more witch-hunting here than most would allow". A concern with objectivity isn't apparent.
 * As to the horrid case you postulate, it is impossible. Even three rogue sysops at a time when no-one else is around would not be able to ban you. Please read the proposal that you have voted against. The most rogue admins could do would be a short term block of 24-hours, no worse than many users suffer now though no wrong-doing when a range-block is in effect or through the occasional wrongful blocking that occurs now for claimed vandalism which is later determined to be unjustified. But the reasons for this block would appear openly on the appropriate page, providing documentation for you or anyone to use to show that the sysops were acting against policy. You don't have such full protection now if a single sysop now blocks you for sneaky vandalism.
 * Not feeding trolls has some success on open web forums, but the usenet is a now a shadow of what it once was. On managed forums trolls are more often simply banned. If not feeding trolls is good, starving trolls is better. But if ignoring disruptors and pushers of crank POV is an option in web forum, it is not an option in Wikipedia where we are trying to build an encyclopedia and trying to maintain and improve the information here. Ignoring the content placed in articles by people intent only on pushing their own POV is not a valid long-term option. Ignoring those interested in sneaky vandalism for the fun of it is not an option. Making it easier to oppose such activities should better Wikipedia.
 * Jallan 18:33, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Here is a classic case of the ground shifting under you in a discussion like this. We go from the ill defined 'troll', to 'pushers of crank POVs', to people 'intent on pushing their own POV' to 'sneaky vandals', as if these were the same thing. Not feeding the trolls does not mean not reverting vandalism. To try to characterise it in this way is just muddying the waters and making discussion more difficult. Mark Richards 23:15, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * Read the policy suggestions. Wrong-doing is not ill-defined there. And I don't particularly care whether someone is acting against supposed Wikipedia policy because they enjoy being disruptive (a troll) or because they strongly believe in a particular POV and don't care what policy they have to break to get into Wikipedia. You muddy the waters by caring about motivation, something often difficult to determine. The policy has nothing to do with open vandalism, which is already covered. You muddy the waters a second time. Perhaps you have not read the policy you oppose, just as you wished to be able to autovote on VfD without actually looking at what you were voting for. Jallan 20:51, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * Once again rhetoric wins out over facts. As I think you know, it was my objection to deletion of pages (not to removal of content) in almost all cases that I wanted to be registered. The few cases that I believe deletion is really appropriate for could be handled in other forums. Mark Richards 23:51, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

''Let's just imagine its Chriatmas and very few people are working here. Just me and three admins, in fact. They're all working on an article together and I stumble in. I find their version horribly POV and try to edit it, they label me disruptive and ultimately ban me before the holiday is over.'' You don't seem to have read the policy. Under this policy you'd get formally warned first. When you get the formal warning, then you simply leave those pages in their "horribly POV" state for a day or two while you get support for your position. Under current policy those 3 admins could get together and protect the pages on their horribly POV version anyway, and that'd likely last more than just a day or two. anthony (see warning) 20:48, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)