text:
Talk:AAR wheel arrangement

Article intent
The intent of this page is to eliminate the duplication of text about locomotive wheel arrangements. Instead of adding 90 words to every new locomotive page to describe a particular wheel arrangement, merely insert an internal link to the already existing section in “AAR wheel arrangement”. For example, if a locomotive has a B-B wheel arrangement, put " B-B " in the Editing box. For more examples, click on “What links here” in the toolbox for “AAR wheel arrangement”. Rmeier 03:18, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Identical?
"three identical trucks" need they be identical? Rich Farmbrough, 11:06, 30 November 2009 (UTC).

"Trucks, or wheel assemblies"?
Just about every paragraph includes the phrase "...trucks, or wheel assemblies...". Is it necessary to repeat it each time? I think it would be more readable to use "trucks (or wheel assemblies)" in the first occurence, then simply "trucks" afterwards. Thoughts? (As an aside, I think the comma should be removed, or the phrase changed to "...trucks, or wheel assemblies,..." (with TWO commas), but better to drop the repetition altogether). MurfleMan (talk) 03:53, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

+ in UIC system - how to display it in AAR system?
The UIC system uses the + sign for linked locomotives, e.g. 1'D+D+D1' for the Swedisch SJ Dm3. As the + sign is used otherwise in the AAR notation - can such cases be handled? Or is there no necessity, as the situation never arose in America?! --KnightMove (talk) 18:29, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's generally easy to represent anything in AAR. The trouble is that AAR is less expressive than UIC. You can represent two different locos with two different UIC arrangements, but they both come out to be the same in AAR. From the AAR you can't tell them apart.
 * Simple cases are B'B' / Bo'Bo' in UIC which both come out as B-B in AAR: you can't distinguish a diesel-hydraulic from a diesel-electric (with separate axle motors). The British use Bo-Bo, but that's not AAR.
 * Another one would be the 2-8-8-8-4 triplex Mallet for the Virginian Railway which is (1'D)D+D2' in UIC because the leading truck (and its pilot) is articulated beneath the frame but the trailing truck is a permanently coupled tender. In AAR this is 1-D+D+D-2 and you can't tell if that's articulation, three bogies or a Mallet with only one front articulated bogie and the second set of driving wheels fixed to the frame.
 * Similarly your 1'D+D+D1' case becomes 1-D+D+D-1 in AAR (if I've got it right!). Which is three coupled locos, two with pony trucks. But it could just as well be three bogies under one frame.
 * As I understand it, AAR has two meanings for both "+" and "-". "+" broadly means "articulation" and "-" means "from one truck to the next". In the simple case of a two bogie diesel, then "B-B" is used, as there are two sibling bogies beneath. A 1C-C1 (BR Class 40) is a pair of four-axled bogies with one pilot axle, 1+C-C+1 (BR Class 44) is the same, but the pilot axles are pivoted as trucks, rather than fixed in the bogie frame. Simple. The problem is that "+" gets re-used. Some early electrics like the PRR FF1 or the Swiss Crocodiles had single frame-mounted motors and so used articulation in two sections rather than bogies underneath, as a UIC of (1'C)(C1') or AAR of 1-C+C-1 (they also had a pilot truck). The notation has swapped around from the Class 44 form: as they're articulated rather than bogies, the largest joiner is now a "+" rather than a "-", and the poor old pilot axle (which is still attached much the same on both) has to swap from a "+" to a "-" so as to not be confused with it. What a mess! Andy Dingley (talk) 02:34, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

The Wheel and Axle
Explain 196.190.61.194 (talk) 18:29, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:AAR wheel arrangement


text:
Caulobacteraceae

Caulobacteraceae is a family of Pseudomonadota within the alpha subgroup. Like all Pseudomonadota, the Caulobacteraceae are gram-negative. Caulobacteraceae includes the genera Asticcacaulis, Brevundimonas, Phenylobacterium and Caulobacter.

The type species Caulobacter gives its name also to the recently proposed subclass, the Caulobacteridae, which includes the orders Caulobacterales, Parvularculales, Hyphomicrobiales, Rhodobacterales, Rhodospirillales, Sneathiellales, Sphingomonadales, Kiloniellales, Kordiimonadales and controversially the Holosporales.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Caulobacteraceae


text:
Personal foul (basketball)

In basketball, a personal foul is a breach of the rules that concerns illegal personal contact with an opponent. It is the most common type of foul in basketball. A player fouls out on reaching a limit on personal fouls for the game and is disqualified from participation in the remainder of the game.

Players routinely initiate illegal contact to purposely affect the play, hoping it is seen as too minor to be ruled a foul. The threshold is subjective and varies among officials and from game to game. Most contact fouls are not regarded as unsportsmanlike. However, excessive or unjustified contact is penalized more severely. The NBA refers to these as flagrant fouls; other rulebooks call them unsportsmanlike or disqualifying fouls.

History
Basketball has always had the concept of fouls. In 1891, James Naismith's original 13 rules defined a foul as: Only the fourth definition remains. Running with the ball and striking it with the fist are now violations. Holding the ball with the arms or body is now rare but legal.
 * running with the ball,
 * holding the ball with the arms or body,
 * striking the ball with the fist,
 * shouldering, holding, pushing, striking or tripping in any way of an opponent.

Originally, on a player's second foul, the player would be removed without substitution until the next successful goal (similar to a penalty in ice hockey). Before long, free throws were introduced, originally worth three points each, then one. Originally, any team member was allowed to shoot free throws. In 1924, the rules were changed so that the fouled player shot the free throws.

The victim of a contact foul used to be given three attempts at a free throw, and the offense retained possession of the basketball. Now, a player fouled in the act of shooting gets from one to three shots and the other team tends to get possession afterwards (see Penalties below).

Principles
Personal contact does not necessarily constitute a personal foul, unless it gives a player an advantage or puts the opponent at a disadvantage.

Cylinder
In FIBA, the cylinder principle gives each player exclusive rights within an imaginary cylinder defined: The cylinder extends from the floor to the ceiling, allowing the player to jump upward.
 * in the front by the palms of the hands, when the arms are bent at the elbows so that the forearms and hands are raised, but no farther in front than the feet,
 * in the rear by the buttocks,
 * at the sides by the outside edge of the arms and legs.

A player can occupy any cylinder not already occupied by the opponent. No one else is allowed to step or reach into this cylinder. A player must not extend his limbs or bend his body in a way that is not normal. If there is a breach of this principle that places the opponent at a disadvantage, the official may penalise it.

The NBA does not use the cylinder principle to judge contact; it only says that a player may not bend or reach in a position that is not normal (nor push, hold, and so on).

Elements of time and distance
The elements of time and distance concern the reaction time and distance of another person. They apply only to players without the ball, not to the ball carrier. For example, a player cannot suddenly step in front of a sprinting player, even without invading the cylinder. Another example is when a player sets a screen directly behind a player: the player would not physically be able to react to the screen in enough time to avoid it.

Charging and blocking
When significant illegal contact between the ball-carrier and a defender occurs, it usually means that either —
 * The defender committed a blocking foul, or
 * The ball-carrier committed the offensive foul of charging.

Deciding between the two is complex, partly subjective, and often controversial.

Generally, the ball-carrier committed a charge if all of the following are true:
 * The defender was still, or moving sideways or backward but not forward, when contact occurred.
 * The defender took a legal guarding position before the contact, that is, one with both feet on the floor.
 * The defender was hit on the torso (as opposed to the arm or leg).

In the NBA, in contact during a move to the basket, officials do not consider the position of the defender's feet, but decide whether the defensive player's torso was set in position before the offensive player began his upward motion. An exception is that a charging foul is usually not called if the ball-handler is within a 4-foot (1.22 m) radius around the center of the basket (known in the rules as the "restricted area" and sometimes colloquially as the "smiley face" ). That is, if the ball-carrier is under the basket, the defense usually cannot restrict his or her movement by drawing a charge. However, a charge can be called if the offensive player receives the ball within an area close to the basket known as the "lower defensive box."

A related call is the player control foul.

Apart from using hands in neutral space to shield or deflect a pass or a shot, the defender uses his or her body to impede the ball-carrier's advance toward the basket. The defender's only absolute way to achieve this is to stand directly in the ball-carrier's path and "draw a charge." Short of this, the defender's use of the body may make the ball-carrier hesitate or change tactics. Both opponents are restrained by their desire not to commit a foul.
 * Strategy

It is not a foul to grab for the ball, or to touch a hand of the ball-carrier that is on the ball, but the ball-carrier, especially in the act of shooting, can easily cause greater contact that is a blocking foul against the defender.

Once contact is made, the defender may fall to the ground to exaggerate the force of the collision and induce a foul to be called. (The ball-carrier rarely does so, as it would disrupt the effort to score a goal.) Overt deception is disparagingly called a "flop" and is penalized at every level of basketball.

A screen is an attempt by an offensive player to stop a defender from guarding the ball-carrier. For example, John Stockton and Karl Malone were well known for their pick and roll (or screen and roll) play. The ball-carrier's teammate is the screener; he stands in the path of the defender as the ball-carrier dribbles past the screener. This at least costs the defender time, and may induce a collision. Either leaves the ball-carrier unguarded. However, if the screener moves towards the ball-carrier when contact occurs, or does not respect the elements of time and distance, or initiates contact, he is charged with illegal screening or setting a moving pick. These are offensive fouls.
 * Screening

Other fouls on the ball-carrier
In the NBA, the ball-carrier cannot attempt to dribble past a defender where there is not enough space, such as dribbling between a defender and either a boundary or another defensive player. If the ball-carrier has space to put head and shoulders past the defender, then the defender is responsible.

In FIBA, this rule is not codified, but contact caused by the dribbler is still penalized.

Fouls away from the ball
The rules are symmetrical for contact between offensive and defensive players not involving the ball-carrier. Any player has the right to a position on the court legally acquired. A player acquiring a position that will impede an opponent must respect the elements of time and distance; that is, not take a position so close, or so quickly, that the opponent cannot avoid contact. This includes gradually slowing down after running with the opponent, and situations where the opponent is shielded from seeing the player's movement.

Other personal fouls

 * Pushing — Contact that displaces an opponent (for example, pushing a player away from the basket, or using body weight to affect a player's movement).
 * Holding — Contact that interferes with a player's freedom of movement (for example, physically grabbing a player driving to the basket).
 * Illegal use of hands — Extending the hands outside the cylinder and causing illegal contact (for example, going for a steal but hitting the player's hand or arm, or hitting the arm of a shooter).
 * Hand-checking — Contact by the defense on a ball handler that impedes a player's speed, quickness, rhythm, and/or balance.
 * Illegal use of elbow — Moving one's elbow outside the cylinder to disadvantage an opponent. This mostly occurs during a post-up play situation, where either offense or defense attempt to gain a better position.
 * Illegal use of legs or knees (on the dunk): Jumping up with one knee forward as to intentionally hit the defender.

Non-foul
Referees who called every case of illegal player contact would dominate the game to the exclusion of the athletes, but reluctance to make calls would make the game excessively violent. The rules direct referees to seek a balance between these extremes, though they do not define it.

When players are competing for a ball that goes out of bounds, and one player commits illegal but minor contact, referees often do not feel a foul is justified but resolve the situation by simply awarding possession of the ball to the other team.

The "reach-in foul" is a misnomer. Reaching toward a player is not a foul, though physical contact may be a foul.

Penalties
The official scorer records the foul in two counts of fouls on the scoresheet:
 * As a player foul against the offending player during the game. A player who accumulates too many fouls will foul out (see below).
 * As a team foul against the offending player's team during the current quarter or half. A team that accumulates too many fouls in that period enters the penalty situation and puts the other team into the "bonus." In men's college basketball (but not women's), another, higher number of team fouls gives the other team a "double bonus" regarding the number of free throws. (See the article on free throws.)

On a foul committed by the defense (and on a loose-ball foul when neither team is in possession of the ball), if the team committing the foul is in the penalty situation or the fouled player was in the act of shooting, the fouled player is awarded free throws. Otherwise, and on offensive fouls, the fouled player's team is awarded possession of the ball to pass inbounds from the out-of-bounds point nearest to the foul. In the NBA, if the fouling player is in the player foul penalty situation, it is treated as a technical foul and any player may take the one free throw, with the shooting team retaining control of the ball. The shot clock is reset.

In some rulebooks, such as that of FIBA, a technical foul is included in the count of player fouls.

If the game goes to overtime, foul counts are not reset, but continue as though overtime were a continuation of the final regulation period. The NBA and WNBA are exceptions, in that each overtime period has its own count of team fouls.

The NBA awards the fouled player free throws followed by possession of the ball in the following cases:
 * Free throws plus possession
 * A flagrant foul.
 * A defense foul when the ball carrier is in the frontcourt with a "clear path" to the basket (no defender between the ball carrier and the basket).
 * A foul "away from the ball" in the last two minutes of the game.
 * A "take foul", which occurs when a defender intentionally fouls to disrupt a fast break transition.

In full-court play, FIBA awards the fouled player one free throw plus possession of the ball for a "throw-in foul", defined as a foul in the last 2 minutes of a period (either a quarter or overtime) against an offensive player while the ball is out of bounds and either in the hands of the referee or at the disposal of the player taking the throw-in.

Since 2020, The Basketball Tournament has awarded one free throw plus possession for any defensive foul during the Elam Ending that would result in bonus free throws at any other point during the game. This was introduced to eliminate an incentive to foul when the offensive team needed a three-pointer to win while the defensive team needed at most 2 points.

Strategy
Fans and commentators often speak of a "good foul" when the fouled player would otherwise have made a sure basket. By fouling the player and preventing an easy two points, the defender forces the offensive player to "earn" the two points from the free throw line. However, if the foul does not prevent the player from scoring, the basket is counted and the fouled player gets an additional free throw.

After the fouled player shoots free throws, the team that was on defense is likely to gain possession of the ball. This is by award, if the final free throw was made. Even if it is missed, defensive players can occupy better positions at the side of the lane to get the rebound.

Near the end of the game, a team that is losing may purposefully foul offensive players to stop the clock and regain possession of the ball, with the hope that the player will miss his free throws. Coaches study free-throw percentages, so that the defense will foul a ball carrier who is poor at free-throw shooting. The "Hack-a-Shaq" strategy was famously practiced against Shaquille O'Neal in view of his poor percentage. The defense is not free to foul its choice of the five offensive players, as a foul "away from the ball" results in free throws plus possession. The use of intentional fouls to prolong a game is unique to basketball; most other sports consider such maneuvers a form of unsportsmanlike conduct and impose stiffer penalties to teams that attempt them (see the professional foul and unfair act in football codes).

Near the end of a period, a team may have committed so few fouls that it can commit one or more fouls without putting the opponent in the bonus. It is said that the team has one or more fouls to give. A player who is not close to fouling out can foul an opponent with impunity to prevent a likely score.
 * Foul to give

To keep games from being bogged down with cheap fouls, the NBA rules provide that the second foul in the final two minutes of a period puts the fouled team in the bonus (enabling free throws) regardless of the number of team fouls.

Fouling out
A player who commits five personal fouls over the course of a 40-minute game, or six in a 48-minute game, fouls out and is disqualified for the remainder of the game. A player within one or two fouls of fouling out is in "foul trouble." Players who foul out are not ejected and may remain in the bench area for the remainder of the game. Fouling out of a game is not a disciplinary action.

In the NCAA and FIBA, if a team is reduced below five players by fouling out, injury, or ejection, play continues. A team is declared the loser if reduced to a single player.

This rule was invoked in an NCAA game between the Minnesota Golden Gophers and the Alabama Crimson Tide on November 25, 2017. With 13:39 remaining in the second half, a scuffle broke out involving Minnesota players in the game and Alabama players on the bench. Alabama's entire bench was ejected, leaving the Crimson Tide with only five active players. Alabama's Dazon Ingram fouled out at the 11:37 mark, and John Petty left the game with a sprained ankle, forcing the Tide to play the final 10:41 with three players.

In the NBA and WNBA, teams cannot be reduced below five players. A player foul penalty situation exists when only five eligible players remain. If there are only five players, a player who fouls out stays in the game. If another of the five players is ejected or injured, the last player to foul out rejoins the game. Under the player foul penalty rule, each situation results in a technical foul, with the non-offending team shooting one technical foul free throw. If that player commits another foul, the opponent will be awarded one additional free throw under the same situation in addition to any free throws awarded, including offensive fouls, which normally are not assessed free throws. Each such situation will be scored as a non-unsportsmanlike conduct technical foul. These technical fouls are not for unsportsmanlike conduct, so they do not result in ejections from the game.

This rule let Don Otten set the NBA record for personal fouls in a regular-season game. He had eight fouls while playing for the Tri-Cities Blackhawks (now the Atlanta Hawks) against the Sheboygan Red Skins on November 24, 1949. The rule was also invoked in a game between the Los Angeles Lakers and Cleveland Cavaliers on February 5, 2014. With the Lakers down to five players due to injuries, when Robert Sacre fouled out, he remained in the game.

In FIBA-authorized 3x3 half-court competition, players cannot foul out because personal foul counts are kept only on a team basis and not individually. However, unsportsmanlike and disqualifying fouls (equivalent to the flagrant fouls of most North American rule sets) are assessed to individuals, and a player who commits two unsportsmanlike fouls or one disqualifying foul is removed from the game.

In the NBA, disqualifying fouls are two technicals or one flagrant 2 (unnecessary and excessive contact). Bench players and staff are subject to accumulating team technical fouls. The coaching staff is also subject to ejection from the game. Ejected personnel may incur fines as well.

title: Personal foul (basketball)


text:
Talk:Invisible Touch

A start
I've had a go. Article needs much citing, so I put the tag at the top rather than splatter the article. I don't have time to do the verification, unfortunately. Other than that, I merged in the one useful line from The Brazilian article, and tried to generally clean the text up. I removed some opinion as well. Antgel 02:18, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Domino
I wouldn't mention Domino being the longest song of the 80s for them; it does have two parts, but then again, so does Home By The Sea, and that would make it longer if put together. Also, Duke's Travels/Duke's End also put together is just as long as Domino. I changed it to ONE of the longest 80s songs. 67.173.173.99 04:27, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Changes
Ive added where it appears on offical live recordings, and when it was played. Hopefully meaning the page dosn't have to be merged, because it contains information specific to this song. Silver007 21:57, 08 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Unreferenced song interpretations are a violation of WP:NOR. Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 02:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The "meaning" portion of the song I wrote was rightfully removed by because it was original research. My fault for not reading the policies. The first part of the song "In the glow of the night" has to my knowledge never been discussed in a reliable source, except maybe in one of the published Genesis biography books I have not read. However the second part of the song, "The Last Domino" definitely has to do with the Domino Effect. Since Phil Collins humorously tries to explain it before the live performance of the song on their DVD's. "Something might happen to the people over there, which in turn might affect the people over there... "

 * However I'm not sure if the speech (which is in at least 2 out of the 3 DVD concerts i know of) is a reliable enough source to say that for sure "the last domino" is about the Domino effect (or principle has he calls it)

 * I’d also like to point out that on the Invisible Touch page, it says this song is about "a nightmarish nuclear war scenario" but does not cite a source. Silver007 (talk) 08:40, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Lyric Composers
To my annoyance, an editor has seen fit to remove the info on the lyric writer for each song. So I'm going to slowly start putting them back on each of the albums. This is partly because Genesis rarely shared lyric writing and generally there was one member of the band who wrote words for each song so this is worthwile info.

Invisible Touch on vinyl...
What hasn't been mentioned in this article is that there are 2 different versions of this album on vinyl (other then vinyl re-issues, I don't think it's been re-issued), regular and Direct Metal Mastering (which I own), sounds awesome. Anyhow, just to update the article (and how many actually read the talk section of Wikipedia?!?) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.68.46.23 (talk) 02:15, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Parody
I added a comment about my parody song, "Legitimate Touch." The lyrics will show up on http://www.whatfreaks.com/ once they are approved. The Sykus (talk) 19:20, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Too much nonsense
There seems to be too much nonsense in this page, some examples: Aisteco (talk) 20:02, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Banks and Collins felt that neither the album's overall sound (changed 2015-01-06T20:54:59 LowSelfEstidle)
 * more of the old-style Genesis i that it covers a lot of ground

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Confusing trivia
"Genesis became the first band and foreign act to have five top five singles on the US Billboard Hot 100, with "Invisible Touch" being their first and only song to reach No. 1 on the charts. "

At the same time? Ever? I'm pretty sure The Beatles are a foreign act and had more than 5 number 1 hits on billboard 100, and around 27 top 5 hits. Citation and clarification needed. Crazytonyi (talk) 01:01, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

"Anything She Does" song length
Though I am unable to locate a source beyond liner notes on Discogs.com, I noticed that some song lengths on this album differ between some streaming platforms and CD reissues, this one specifically. I feel like a note about this should be added, at the very least. What'sTheMatterWithYourHair (talk) 20:20, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Invisible Touch


text:
Bowed kite

Bowed kites such as the Japanese rokkaku, and traditional versions of the more familiar "diamond" shaped kites such as the Malay or Eddy, are tensioned into a bow in order to improve their stability to the point where a tail often becomes unnecessary.

The classic long-tail diamond kite, with a simple two-point bridle, has its lateral roll or flutter (oscillation) greatly reduced or eliminated by a bow in its horizontal spar. Some modern designs use a fixed plastic joiner with a dihedral shape instead of a bowed spar to achieve the same stability effect.

title: Bowed kite


text:
Branch president

A branch president is a leader of a "branch" congregation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church).

The calling of branch president is very similar to the calling of bishop, except that instead of presiding over a ward, the branch president presides over a branch. The branch president is directly responsible for the operation of his branch and the well-being of its patrons. The branch president usually has two counselors to assist him in his duties; these three men comprise the branch presidency. Like almost all callings in the LDS Church, the branch president is not paid for his work in the church.

A branch president must hold the priesthood and at a minimum must hold the office of priest. Unlike a bishop, a branch president is not required to be a high priest, or be married, but conforming with these stipulations may depend on whether the branch is part of a district or a stake. In branches within stakes that contain several priesthood holders a branch president will usually be married and may be ordained to the office of high priest. In branches where no resident member is a worthy priesthood holder, a full-time missionary may be called to be branch president.

Branch presidents are given the honorific title "President".

title: Branch president


text:
National Team Unity

National Team Unity (NTU) was a political party in Trinidad and Tobago led by Human Rights lawyer and former Attorney General Ramesh Lawrence Maharaj. Founded as Team Unity, to contest party elections in the United National Congress in 2001, the slate of candidates was led by Maharaj. Team Unity won 21 of 24 contested executive posts including the Deputy Leadership (won by Maharaj). Later that year a rift with UNC leader Basdeo Panday led Maharaj, together with Oropouche Member of Parliament Trevor Sudama and Naparima MP Ralph Maraj, to leave the party. This caused the UNC to lose its parliamentary majority, forcing national elections. Renaming itself National Team Unity, the party contested the 2001 general elections, winning 2.5% of the vote but no seats. It did not contest the 2002 general elections, and remains more of a pressure group than a true national political party. In 2004 Ralph Maraj returned to the PNM (which he had left in 1995) as a speechwriter for Prime Minister Patrick Manning.

As of 2006 the NTU appears to be a moribund organization. Its leader Maharaj has rejoined the United National Congress.

title: National Team Unity


text:
Leopold I, Margrave of Austria

Leopold I (also Luitpold; c. 940 – 10 July 994), known as the Illustrious (der Erlauchte) was a member of the House of Babenberg who ruled as Margrave of Austria from 976 until his death. He was the first margrave of the Babenberg dynasty which ruled the March and Duchy of Austria until its extinction in 1246.

Biography
The origins of Leopold the Illustrious are not known. According to some sources, his father Berthold was count in the Nordgau, the region north of Ratisbon (Regensburg) in the Duchy of Bavaria. A more recent theory identifies Leopold as a younger son of Duke Arnulf of Bavaria and brother (or nephew) of Count Berthold of Schweinfurt. While his ancestry remains disputed, some affiliation with the ducal Luitpoldings dynasty is probable. Leopold is first mentioned in a document issued by Emperor Otto I on 13 February 962 as Liupo, count of the Bavarian Donaugau region near Ratisbon, count of the Traungau region, and a faithful follower of the emperor. After Otto I had defeated the Magyars in the 955 Battle of Lechfeld, he re-established the Bavarian Marcha orientalis (Eastern March) in the conquered territories, placing them under the command of Margrave Burkhard, a brother-in-law of Duchess Judith, consort of Duke Henry II of Bavaria. When Burkhard joined the uprising of Duke Henry II ("the Wrangler") against Emperor Otto II, he was deposed at the Imperial Diet of Ratisbon in 976. According to a charter dated 21 July 976, loyal Leopold was appointed margrave of the Marcha orientalis, the core territory of the later Archduchy of Austria.

The resettlement of the east was a slow process that centered from the fortress of Pöchlarn down the Danube river. Leopold's margraviate originally coincided with the present-day Wachau valley, and whose eastern boundary was the Traisen river near Sankt Pölten east of Krems. With the Magyar threat largely reduced following their defeat in 955, Leopold focused on securing his holdings from internal threats and dissensions. In 984, he engaged in the reduction of the fortress at Melk, which was still controlled by supporters of the late margrave. Once Melk was secured, Leopold most likely used it as his residence, founding a monastery there for twelve secular priests. By 987, Leopold extended the boundary of his margraviate to the east as far as the Wienerwald mountain range and by 991, jointly with reinstated Duke Henry II of Bavaria, further down to the Fischa river.

In 994, Leopold travelled to Würzburg to mediate a dispute between his cousin Margrave Henry of Schweinfurt and the Würzburg bishop Bernward von Rothenburg, one of whose knights Henry had seized and blinded. At a tournament held on 8 July, Leopold was hit in the eye by an arrow directed at his cousin. Two days later, on 10 July 994, he died from his injuries. He was buried in Würzburg. In 1015, his son Duke Ernest I of Swabia, was buried next to his father. In the thirteenth century, their remains were returned to Melk Abbey.

Historiography
Leopold ruled over the re-established Marcha orientalis for eighteen years. He organized and expanded it with great ability, and left behind a margravate that had assumed the character of "an ordered and civilized land". The chronicler Thietmar wrote that no man was wiser that he in all his actions, or of a worthier nature. Perhaps the highest testimony to Leopold's life and reputation came from the actions of Emperor Otto III, who immediately invested his son Henry I with his father's margravate.

Although Leopold is not mentioned in the Babenberger Chronicle written by his descendant Otto of Freising—which only starts with Leopold's grandson Adalbert—he is known today as the progenitor of the Babenberg dynasty. Otto of Freising's claim of ancestry to the Franconian Babenbergs, who are remembered for the Babenberger insurgency of the early tenth century, has not been proven, but cannot be completely ruled out.

In 1976, the millennial anniversary of Leopold's appointment as margrave was celebrated as a "Thousand Years of Austria". Celebrations under the same title were held twenty years later at the anniversary of the famous 996 Ostarrîchi document first mentioning the Old German name of Austria.

Marriage
Leopold married Richardis, the daughter of Count Ernest IV of Sualafeldgau (according to other sources of the Ezzonid count Erenfried II) and probably the aunt of Duke Adalbero of Carinthia. Their marriage produced eight children:
 * 1) Henry I (died 1018), second Margrave of Austria
 * 2) Judith
 * 3) Ernest I (died 1015), Duke of Swabia
 * 4) Adalbert (985–1055), third Margrave of Austria
 * 5) Poppo (986–1047), Archbishop of Trier
 * 6) Kunigunda
 * 7) Hemma, married Count Rapoto of Dießen
 * 8) Christina, a nun at Trier

title: Leopold I, Margrave of Austria


text:
User:AmbassadorShras

Hi. I'm AmbassadorShras. I've been editing and writing on Wikipedia (very sporadically) for about 20 years now.

I've started a few articles, among them those for the Austrian performer Reggie Nalder, legendary dancer Jack Wiggins, the Hoofers Club in Harlem, the Satellite Program Network, Korean poet Moh Yoon-sook, defunct telecoms firm Broadpoint, and Loch Fannich in Scotland.

Before taking the username AmbassadorShras in 2004, I created nascent articles on Macclesfield band the Other Two, and on its members, Gillian Gilbert and Stephen Morris. I also started the English-language article on the University of Rostock in Germany.

I'm proudest of the piece I wrote about nineteenth-century New York designer and furniture maker Charles Baudouine.

I've also made significant edits to the articles on Nipsey Russell, Vladimir Posner, "African time," and on the evolving ownership of The Saturday Evening Post.

Thanks for visiting.

title: User:AmbassadorShras


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bemani pseudonyms

Bemani pseudonyms
This hardly seems encyclopedic. Indrian 03:27, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

If renamed into List of Bemani musicians, this article would need some rewriting, but then it could mention all the artists, and we could abandon the Category: Bemani artists.--Kamek 19:45, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * Either merge and redirect to Bemani, or move to a better title such as List of Bemani musicians.   — Gwalla | Talk 05:21, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. I agree that this should be moved to a better, more descriptive title. Radman1 16:19, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Agreed about moving. Merging wouldn't be a good idea, since this is a quite long list, good enough to have its own article in Wikipedia's eyes. See Article size --Kamek 19:21, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * Oops, just checked and this isn't really what I was looking for. It focuses on page size; my point here rather is that this article is a list with numerous entries, and would take away the focus of the Bemani article, which is much smaller at the moment.

 * Merge and Redirect to Bemani sounds about right. It's an interesting read for Bemani fans, but the information presented doesn't lend itself to its own article. Mo0 06:35, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Merge and redirect to Bemani. Geogre 13:36, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Move, but do not merge. GRider 22:30, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. I don't really see why _anything_ needs to be done to this, frankly (what harm's it doing right now?) and especially I think that if this was moved into Bemani it would completely dwarf the main article. Perhaps renaming it into a list of artists might work, but again that's just semantics and I don't see the difference - but do if you feel you positively must. To anyone who's doubting this page's usefulness, it's a lot better (and faster) than trying to find out the information through the other sources available. I really don't want to see anything drastic happen to this after I spent quite literally many hours compiling like half of it - especially not deletion. (Isn't 'non-encyclopedic' not enough of a reason by itself anyway?) --Xythar
 * Move to List of Bemani musicians and keep. anthony 警告 14:35, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Agree with Anthony DiPierro. -- Radman1 16:11, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Move and keep. Posiduck 17:28, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Merge and redirect, unless somebody expands it dramatically. Sam [Spade] 19:08, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Move and revise SYSS Mouse 04:48, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Merge and redirect as above. Johnleemk | Talk 11:48, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * It's a list. Identify it as such. --Slowking Man 07:04, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep in current form — siro  χ  o  14:20, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)


text:
Stuart Parker (politician)

Stuart Parker (born 1972) is a Canadian politician who was the acting leader of the BC Ecosocialists party in 2020 and was the leader of the Green Party in British Columbia, Canada, from 1993 to 2000. In 2009, during the Ontario by-election to replace MPP Michael Bryant, he unsuccessfully sought the Ontario New Democratic Party nomination for the St. Paul's provincial riding.

Green Party activism
Prior to winning the party's leadership at the age of 21, he had been the founder and spokesperson of the party's youth wing, the Young Greens from 1988 to 1992 and was best known for coordinating the group's successful national campaign against McDonald's Restaurants' use of ozone-destroying foam packaging. Parker and the Young Greens received substantial credit from Canada's national media in 1990 when the restaurant giant abandoned the use of chlorofluorocarbon-based foam. The group's continued campaign against the use of CFCs in foam packaging led to CKF Incorporated, Canada's largest manufacturer of CFC-based foam, abandoning the use of CFCs in manufacturing in 1993.

Parker managed to take the party from a tiny group of 59 in 1992 to a party that was only four candidates short of a full slate in the 1996 provincial election. He built links to poverty activists and labour groups. During his leadership, the party's standing in public opinion polls rose from 1% to 11%. During his time as the party leader, Parker was arrested in anti-clearcutting blockades in Clayoquot Sound in 1993 and the Slocan Valley in 1997.

Reversing his earlier position, he negotiated agreements with the municipal affiliates of the then-incumbent British Columbia New Democratic Party (NDP) provincial government and the labour councils of Vancouver and Victoria in 1998 and 1999, resulting in the first and the only Red-Green coalitions in Canadian history in BC's 1999 municipal elections. As part of these coalitions, the Greens won their first-ever municipal seats in Canadian cities.

Ultimately, his focus on building a broadly left-wing green party in BC brought criticism from some members of the environmental movement in the province. Those people played a significant role in the efforts that eventually led to Parker's defeat at the party's March 2000 convention - after previous unsuccessful attempts to unseat him in 1998 and 1999.

At the time of Parker's defeat, his supporters in the party were in negotiations with the NDP over a potential provincial electoral alliance. His successor, Adriane Carr, cancelled these negotiations.

On June 2, 2020, Parker rejoined the party and endorsed Dimitri Lascaris in the leadership election.

Parker is a founder of the BC Ecosocialist and was its acting leader, as well as a prospective candidate in the 2020 British Columbia general election. He resigned as both after allegations he made transphobic comments.

BC Ecosocialists
BC Ecosocialists was a provincial political party in British Columbia, Canada. Its stated aims included steering the province to a greener society and fighting discrimination against the First Nations and immigrants. Formed in 2019, the 2020 British Columbia general election was expected to be its first.

Shortly after the 2020 provincial election was called, Parker resigned following allegations of transphobia. Parker dismissed the allegations as "a blizzard of cancel culture silliness", but resigned as party leader on September 22, 2020, leaving the position vacant. The party did not field any candidates in the election.

Policy
The party described itself as "Further left than the NDP, greener than the greens". It listed figures Greta Thunberg, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, and Autumn Peltier as their inspirations, among others. It supported the water protector activists at Standing Rock Indian Reservation, particularly praising these people prioritizing the Earth and its inhabitants over wealth.

The party's main priority was to provide a better quality of living for all people, including housing for all, food for all, and creating a sustainable environment. It proposed the adoption of a Green New Deal to create jobs by developing green energy sources in British Columbia (BC). The party planned to increase taxes for top earning individuals and corporations in order to fund such projects, as well as make improvements to the transportation infrastructure. It also wanted to freeze fossil fuel development in the province.

The Ecosocialists promised to break up large cooperative institutions into small, community based cooperatives. Their main targets were Vancity and the Mountain Equipment Co-op. They also planned to raise the minimum wage to $16 per hour, criticizing John Horgan's plan to keep the minimum wage below Alberta's until 2021.

The party also aimed to improve human rights of minority groups in BC, particularly the First Nations in British Columbia, the LGBT+ community, and persons with disabilities, and put an end to gender inequality. The party had a decolonization policy, described as "returning power, land and resources to Indigenous people, not just tearful apologies and photo-ops".

The party planned to provide further resources to fight white collar crime, with emphasis on those who break workers' safety and wage laws, as well as pollution. It aimed to decriminalize drug usage, and instead focus on rehabilitation for addicts. It would also file suit against the oil and coal industries for their roles in climate change.

The party wanted to shift to a proportional representation system of voting based on the Norwegian system. Furthermore, the party wanted to increase aboriginal representation in the legislature by adopting the New Zealand model, which includes Māori electorates, and make election day a statutory holiday to improve voter turnout.

NDP and electoral reform activism
Parker's departure from the party came as the Greens were perceived to be moving to the political right. He subsequently worked with the NDP in the 2001 provincial election and with the federal New Democratic Party in the 2004 federal election.

Upon leaving the Green Party, Parker initially worked as a lobbyist for Mike Geoghegan. Despite leaving the Greens and joining the NDP, he remained a strong advocate for electoral reform, specifically proportional representation. A co-founder of the BC Electoral Change Coalition in 1997, he served on the board of Fair Voting BC (2000–2002, 2006–2009) and on the board of Fair Vote Canada (2005–2007). He served as a spokesperson for the "YES" campaign in the 2005 and 2009 BC referendums on voting reform.

Living in Ontario in 2009, he sought the NDP nomination for the provincial by-election in the St. Paul's electoral district, but was defeated by lawyer Julian Heller.

Following the defeat, Parker was encouraged by the NDP's national office and the board of the St. Paul's federal riding association to seek the party's federal nomination. However, in March 2010, after initially being approved by the party's vetting process the previous November, he was informed by head office staff that he was not only disqualified from running in St. Paul's, but barred from running for a federal NDP nomination anywhere in Canada. Party officials objected to four posts he had made to his personal Facebook page in the intervening months, particularly one in which he urged Toronto NDP supporters to back the NDP candidate for mayor in the wake of a sex scandal.

In March 2018, Stuart Parker resigned from the NDP over the provincial government's subsidies to transnational fossil fuel producers.

Surrey municipal politics
Parker organizes reading groups through the Los Altos Institute, which describes itself as a "left-wing think tank", and Los Altos began a reading group in Surrey, BC in 2016. From that Surrey group, in April 2018, Parker announced the creation of a civic party in the city of Surrey called Proudly Surrey. The party ran candidates for City Council, including Parker, a candidate for mayor, Dr. Pauline Greaves, and candidates for Surrey School Board in the October 20, 2018, municipal election.

Personal
The son of Valerie Jerome and nephew of Harry Jerome, Parker was the first leader of a registered political party in BC of African descent and gave the keynote speech to the opening ceremony of the province's Black History Month in 1994.

He is currently based in the Vancouver area after doing a travel-intensive postdoctoral fellowship from the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada on the religions of indigenous peoples of the Americas and Polynesia. He works as a university lecturer at both Simon Fraser University and the British Columbia Institute of Technology.

Election results
1. Vancouver Parks Board and Surrey City Council are chosen in a citywide (at-large) election in which seven candidates are elected. Although Parker received 3.2% of the total votes, approximately 23% of electors voted for him and in Surrey, he received the support of just shy of 9% of voters.

title: Stuart Parker (politician)


text:
Talk:SkyOS/previous discussion

Fanboyism
I've tried to counteract some of the insane fanboyism here. This isn't a portal to boast about an OS's supposed capabilities - if you're going to do that, you MUST list the downsides as well. And SkyOS sure as hell has its downsides too.

Kiand 00:41, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Criticism
User:216.109.205.62 removed the "criticism" section with a comment "Removed criticism, extremely opinionated, no factual basis." The section sounds pretty NPOV to me. --Diberri | Talk 06:16, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)

 * I'm going to give this article a complete rewrite. The user Heyxdes who is editing it is a team member/employee/whatever, I'm not sure, of SkyOS. This article was rewritten by SkyOS Forums users in an attempt to get free advertising,

 * It'll be a bit to the opposite direction when I rewrite it - last time I used SkyOS it failed completely on all my hardware, and in the interim I've been bugged by the "team" to join them because I'm a BeOS developer...

 * Kiand 07:29, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Oh, and if anyone feels like doing the reweite, please do. I'm a bit busy now, but I'll be able to complete it around 4:00 UTC.

Kiand 07:33, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I'm attempting to make whats already here a bit more neutral, but you'd be better to do the rewrite, I only have a passing familiarity with SkyOS from reading OSNews occasionally. As it stands, I feel I've atleast given the article some sembilance of neutrality, but it certainly suffers from the sin of omision. Shane King 07:39, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)

Please stop lying
What is this nonsense you keep presenting about us trying to "advertise" SkyOS? This is a Wikipedia article. It was started a long time ago, and had very outdated information. I took it upon myself to try and update it as best as possible, and now a few people from our community have helped us out by adding information as well (we are very consumed with working on SkyOS). I'm not sure who wrote that SkyOS violates the GPL, but that is nothing but a lie, pure and simple. SkyOS, the operating system, uses zero lines of GPL code. Everything has been written from scratch over the course of 8 years. SkyOS does indeed make available some APPLICATIONS that are licensed under the GPL, but that in no way obligates us to make our operating system source code available. We simply are required to make the source code to the applications that we have changed available, which we have done and are happy to continue doing to anyone that is interested in the source. The source will also be included with SkyOS 5.0 Final, directly on the CD. Another problem, in the criticisms section, it lists that SkyOS has no applications. As seen in the paragraph above, it does, which caused confusion among a few people about GPL. We ported Abiword, Gaim, GIMP, Blender3D, Quake I and II and OpenTTD to SkyOS. We are currently working on a web browser. We wrote a media player to play audio/video. There are also a number of smaller 3rd party applications available. So to say no applications are available is flat-out wrong, and to say we have no web browser just shows that you do not follow our project. If you did, you would know we have been working hard on porting/writing a web browser over the last 2 weeks. I know that SkyOS being closed-source makes you upset, and that is fine. You're welcome to disagree with our choice. However, it is OUR CHOICE to make. Please do not spread lies about SkyOS and attempt to disparage our reputation with misinformation on Wikipedia.

 * I'm not upset its closed source. I use a closed source, commercial OS myself.
 * I am however upset that you're using a wikipedia article to promote a one-sided, rose tinted view of your OS. You develop it, hence you are going to try to make it sound wonderful. Its not wonderful when you view it from beyond the edge - e.g. from using another OS. Currently, I don't give a damn about the future, currently you've got no decent web browser and very few apps. There are suspicions over GPL'ed code, namely because from personal experience I can say its damned hard to get diffs out of yiz. I've also never seen the VLC/AbiWord/etc ports get put back in the main tree.

Kiand 07:59, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

SkyOS does not use ANY GPL'd code. I don't know how I can make this point more clear to you. Obviously since our source is closed you're not going to see it. However, if we just dropped in code from other projects that used GPL code, it would not take very long to notice the similarities. As far as I know, we are not required to put the source code of applications we port back into the main tree of those respective projects. We simply are required to make the code available to people that request it, which we try our best to do (you have to remember, there is one full-time coder, and one part-time coder working on SkyOS and we are EXTREMELY busy, but still do our best to help everyone out and do the right thing). I don't see SkyOS through rose-tinted glasses, quite the opposite, it is one of my jobs to see SkyOS in the worst light possible, so that we can make changes. I'm not the one with the problem, you are. You simply post "SkyOS has bad hardware support." and make no mention of the fact that this is an on-going project, and we actively add more and more support as time goes on. THAT IS A RELEVANT FACT AND YOU LEFT IT OUT TO MAKE A FALSE POINT. You did the same thing with the web browser, stating that we have a bad browser, while not also mentioning the fact that it is something we are actively engaged in fixing. The original material was neither good nor bad (since it didn't exist). You entered the bad part of it. I balanced it with what we are doing to fix the situation. Now you are saying that that isn't relevant, only your bad information is relevant. I think you need to grab a dictionary and look up the definition for "bias". I don't care at all that you reported we have less than complete hardware support, only a small set of applications, or a sub-par browser, but if you were interested in reporting the truth, and not just your bias, you would also report what is currently being done about the situation, if anything (which MANY things are being done).

 * You don't seem to get what the problem is here at all. I, for one, don't care if you don't have a browser, if you used GPLd code, or if your hardware support is getting better. I care that this article is biased.

 * "Exactly what form this browser will take will be revealed in the near future"
 * "development team is also doing their best"
 * "they will be given the final product as well"

 * Promises about soon to be features do not belong here. From the number of people that are complaining about this, it should be clear that there is a problem. I personally agree that SkyOS is deseving of a page reflecting facts about the OS, but that sould focus on what is not what's coming with the next release. In doing some research on SkyOS, I've concluded that you guys have done a Great Thing, and there's no reason for the article not to reflect that, but denying that it's biased will not fix it. jericho4.0 20:22, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * The is no point in saying "A good browser is coming" "good hardware support is coming" etc. They aren't there now and the Wikipedia is not a place for speculation
 * Also, the article pages are no place for personal mud-slinging, and the articles NPOV is disputed, hence the header.
 * Kiand 08:31, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

In that case I please wish to know how this SkyOS article is any different from the Linux or BeOS one. The moment you, Kiand, can explain the difference, you might have a point.

--Thom Holwerda

 * I am not Kiand, but the difference I see is that the Linux article talks about the state of Linux today, not some speculation about what applications might be developed for it in the future. It is also takes a "just the facts, ma'am" to things like the SCO lawsuit, rather than a "people criticise SkyOS for this, but they're completely wrong" attitude this article had before some of my edits.

 * I have no problem with you pointing out what the good things about SkyOS are from your perspective (so long as they're stated in an objective tone, eg "The developers of SkyOS claim"), infact I encourage it. WHat I can't stand for is any attempt to remove or downplay criticism of SkyOS. The criticisms may not even be true, but the fact that people are making them is reason enough for wikipedia to report them (hopefully in a manner that makes it clear wikipedia does not endorse the criticisms, merely notes that people make them).

 * I know SkyOS is a product in development. The article already states that. However, you can't use that as an excuse to hide behind when people criticse the product. I'm sympathetic to your view that it will be fixed by the time it's ready for release, but this doesn't excuse the current failings, which wikipedia is oblidged to report. When the final product is released with those shortcomings fixed, then those points can be removed, but to do so before then is just speculation on the future, a practice that an encyclopedia has no right to engage in. Shane King 08:58, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)

Let's face it-- if this SkyOS article is an "advertisement", then so is the Linux one, the BeOS one, and the Windows one. Seeing the small size of SkyOS, and it's extremely small userbase, it is very difficult to say what it's weaknesses are. Of course SkyOS weaknesses must also be named in this article-- but what other than lack of HW support/applications can the article state? Just as an hypothetical article of Longhorn cannot say anything about Longhorn's potential weaknesses. It all depends on how you look at it. In the BeOS one for example, no mention is made of the biggest weakness of the Be: networking. Yet I do not see anyone altering that. --Thom Holwerda

 * People edit articles as their time and interest allows. I don't know enough about BeOS, nor do I care enough about it to bother learning enough, to add information to its article. If its article is poor, it's probably because it's a dead OS that most people no longer care so much about. However, if you feel that the article is poor, and you feel you can improve it, by all means, go ahead and do so. However, to point to it and say "it's bad, so this article can be bad too" is just silly: two wrongs don't make a right. Shane King 09:57, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)

You're simply refusing to even listen to what we're saying. You've entered this with the attitude that you are right, and you don't want to even listen to the other side. You posted two shortcomings of SkyOS: lack of hardware support, and lack of applications. That is fine, no one is saying you can't post that. However, to get the full picture, you have to get the other side of the story, which is that both of these points are currently and ongoingly being worked on. As it stood, what you added was an incomplete idea. So we are saying that there is nothing wrong with you printing what you did, but that to get the full picture, you must also print the other side of the story. Now, as far as the GPL statements goes, that was nothing but a pure fabrication. SkyOS DOES NOT contain any GPL code in the operating system. Printing that in this article is libel. That idea does not have any factual basis, and is no different than including something such as "SkyOS has been accused of eating babies." Its nothing more than an untrue pot-shot by someone who simply does not agree with closed-source software, and wishes to harm our reputation with accusations of GPL violations. The real loser is the OSS community, because one day someone really WILL steal OSS code and use it outside of the GPL specifications, and no one will believe the OSS community, because you have "cried wolf" so many times.

 * Let me reiterate this again - I DO NOT GIVE A DAMN that the system is closed source. I just know FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCE that getting diffs out of yiz is like drawing blood from a stone. I use a closed source OS myself as my main, nay, sole OS. I couldn't care less if SkyOS was commercial, GPL, BSD, or under some licence that meant I had to eat a full paper copy of the source code to be allowed boot it up.

Kiand 15:12, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"I'm not sure who wrote that SkyOS violates the GPL, but that is nothing but a lie, pure and simple. SkyOS, the operating system, uses zero lines of GPL code. Everything has been written from scratch over the course of 8 years. SkyOS does indeed make available some APPLICATIONS that are licensed under the GPL, but that in no way obligates us to make our operating system source code available. We simply are required to make the source code to the applications that we have changed available, which we have done and are happy to continue doing to anyone that is interested in the source. "

Not necessarily: the GPL provides a special excemption to operating system components: " However, as a special exception, the source code distributed need not include anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the operating system on which the executable runs, unless that component itself accompanies the executable.". This only applies, however, if the applications are not distributed together with the operating system. The GPL is very unambiguous about this: distribution of GPL applications with a closed OS is breaking the GPL. This does not obligate you to GPL your OS, but what it does do is void your license to distribute and modify the GPL applications. Continuing to do so is in breach of copyright law, and as much a crime as if you were distributing 'pirate' copies of a closed-source work.

GPLed applications, even if they depend on a closed OS to run, are perfectly legal as long as:

They include full source (and comply with all other GPL requirements) They are not distributed with the closed OS

I neither know nor care if skyos is distributed with GPL applications or not, but if it is, it is breaking copyright law to distribute it.

lj 16:31, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

-- This is taken from the GNU GPL FAQ: ''However, in many cases you can distribute the GPL-covered software alongside your proprietary system. To do this validly, you must make sure that the free and non-free programs communicate at arms length, that they are not combined in a way that would make them effectively a single program.  The difference between this and "incorporating" the GPL-covered software is partly a matter of substance and partly form. The substantive part is this: if the two programs are combined so that they become effectively two parts of one program, then you can't treat them as two separate programs. So the GPL has to cover the whole thing.  If the two programs remain well separated, like the compiler and the kernel, or like an editor and a shell, then you can treat them as two separate programs--but you have to do it properly. The issue is simply one of form: how you describe what you are doing.'' This caption from the FAQ CLEARLY states that GNU GPL applications can be included alongside proprietary systems, so long as they remain two seperate programs. Gimp, Gaim, Abiword and the other GNU GPL applications available when SkyOS is installed are clearly NOT the same program as SkyOS. The only way that SkyOS could be in violation of the GPL would be if SkyOS included GPL code within the actual OS code, which it does not, in any way, shape, or form.

There is no way you can credibly argue that something ported to an OS is communicating with it at arm's length - apps linked against an operating system communicate via shared memory, system calls, and callbacks. If this were permitted by the GPL, I can't see any form of linking that would be forbidden. Clearly any interpretation of the GPL that permits linking with a GPL-incompatible OS is erroneous.

If SkyOS and its applications were separate and 'communicating at arm's length', you could take a skyos app, and run it on some other operating system. This is clearly impossible, thus the operating system and the application are part of the same work. If distributed on the same media, either the OS must be licensed in a GPL-compatible manner, or the application is being distributed illegally. What this paragraph in the GPL FAQ addresses is the distribution of applications as part of a system (for instance a toolchain), such that the GPL-ed apps act on data produced by non-GPLed apps, but do not depend on anything GPL-incompatible to run. An example of such permitted behaviour would be to bundle GCC with a closed-source IDE. The IDE and the compiler 'communicate at arm's length': the IDE invokes the compiler from the command-line to compile files, but does not access its memory, pass objects back and forth, etc. Similarly, the compiler does not access the innards of the IDE. The compiler may even be used separately from the IDE. For this example, it does not matter whether the OS is GPL-compatible or not - if so, there is no licensing problem anyway, but if not, because the operating system is not distributed with the apps, distribution falls under the 'major components special exception'.

If you put a GPL app ported to an OS on the same CD as the OS itself, you don't get this special exception. If you put GPLed apps on the same distribution medium as SkyOS, without licencing SkyOS in a GPL-compatible manner, you are distributing these apps illegally.

lj 23:50, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * You do not understand the GPL. You have not read the GPL.  You have likely not been involved in any GPL projects.  Please go back to trolling on Slashdot and do not waste our time with nonsense. AlistairMcMillan 22:55, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Please explain to me in what way my understanding is incorrect. I'll try to build up my argument from first principles so you can tell me where I'm going wrong.

1 : works that contain GPLed code (works, not necessarily programs, but also compilations of programs) must be "licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this License." (GPL 2b)

2 : A program that links to another program, even at runtime, is considered by the GPL to be part of a larger derivative work, which must be licensed as per 2b (RMS, http://list-archive.xemacs.org/xemacs-beta/199806/msg00523.html )

3 : A GPLed application written for SkyOS links against SkyOSes standard libraries

4 : A GPLed application written for SkyOS is part of a larger derived work which contains the application, and the standard libraries (point 2 and point 3)

5 : A GPLed application must be accompanied by full source, or an offer of such (GPL 3)

6 : The GPLed Skyos application must be accompanied by full source of SkyOS's standard libraries (or, at the very least, the source for every possible system call that it could make)

7: 6 does not apply to standard OS components, unless said components are distributed with the app (GPL3, footnote 1)

8 : GPLed app is distributed with SkyOS, so point 6 does not apply (points 6,7)

9 : GPLed app must therefore be accompanied by full source of standard libraries when distributed with SkyOS (points 8, 5, 4)

10 : SkyOS does not ship source (http://www.skyos.org/faqs.php)

11 : if you cannot fulfil the terms of the GPL, you may not distribute the app (GPL 7)

12 : A CD with both SkyOS and a GPLed application does not fulfil the terms of the GPL by not shipping source for SkyOS's standard libraries, and thus may not legally distribute the GPLed application.

I'm offended by your allegation that I would argue such a point without even reading the GPL; maybe you can show me the error in my understanding of it?

lj 02:50, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

--

Completely rewritten
Only think left from the fanboyism rewrite is the External Links and the other languages list.

Kiand 15:09, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC) This is getting rather silly, ain't it? Who are you tp decide that this article is "wrong"? The fact that you state that the SkyOS Team was "spamming" the BeOS dev. mailinglists says it all. That's not just a lie, that's an intentional attack upon SkyOS. Why you attack SkyOS is a complete mystery to me. Jealousy? OSS Zealotry? A combination?

I'll probably learn why in my study at university. Psychology.

--Thom Holwerda

Thom - do you want me to find the mails I got from Kelly asking me to "switch teams" so to speak? It was just BeBits developers with drivers listed, as far as I can could tell. Hence its entirely true and not an attack on SkyOS.

Kiand 17:01, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Since when does asking for help mean "predatory tactics in attempting to obtain developers from BeOS, including spamming all driver developers listed on BeBits."? That line is a direct attack on the SkyOS team. Secondly: the difficulties in obtaining diffs of programmes which have been ported." Got any source of that? Anything at all to back that claim up?

--Thom Holwerda

Yes, I have. OpenTTD. Took me (a team member) somewhere in the region of three weeks to obtain the diffs. Which weren't diffs but a zip of the full directory, although thats not a major problem

Also, "asking for help" by sending unsolicited email from a commercial project = spamming in the EU.

BTW, you've now reached your three-revert limit, and getting someone else to do it for you is sockpuppetry.

Kiand 17:18, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Mmmmm, so, instead of asking for an explanation to the guys if SkyOS, you just start being a donkey here on a free encyclopedia? That's rather childish, now, ain't it? Ah, so it took one person three weeks to get the diffs... Mmm, firstly, three weeks is not long. The GPL says nothing about how long it may take, and three weeks is not long if you take into account that Robert has a full-time job, and outside of that fulltime job codes SkyOS. Secondly, how fair is a test where n=1?

And oh, I wasn't using the revert option, as you may have discovered by now.

--Thom Holwerda

Not using the revert doesn't mean its not a revert. I was using the revert option because its quicker. You're now on the Recent Vandalism page, not that that ever does anything, really...

Also, diffing up: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=SkyOS&diff=0&oldid=6752123

Exactly the same before my rewrite and your last revert. Hence its a revert.

Kiand 17:39, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

So what if I e-mailed developers from BeBits asking if they would be interested in helping to work on a few things for SkyOS? I wasn't asking anyone to "switch teams". That would constitute that I wanted them to not work on BeOS ever again, and solely develop for SkyOS. I couldn't care less if they develop for BeOS, Mac, Windows, or Linux. I was simply asking if they would be interested in helping in a very relevant thing we were working on. Feel free to post my message exactly as I sent it. I already did this on our forums for everyone to see, which is why Thom (rightfully) is saying your accusations in this matter are baseless, he already read the letter in question.

And it took three weeks to get the OpenTTD changes to you? THREE WHOLE ENTIRE LONG WEEKS?! Give me a break. Robert works the equivalent of a 90-hour work week between work and SkyOS. He receives tons and tons and tons of e-mail. And still it only took three weeks to get you what you needed? I'm surprised it didn't take longer.

It's obvious you have problems with SkyOS now, which accounts for your biased editing of the page. As long as you continue to be less than truthful in your reporting about SkyOS on Wikipedia, we will be glad to continue reverting back to a balanced entry.

 * Balanced entry? You mean one that you've not contributed to obviously.
 * What does it matter that Robert works a 90 hour week? Clearly the OS is a hobby, but that doesn't give him the right to use that as an excuse to avoid complying with the GPL.
 * Also, you can only revert three times before its vandalism. Hence I've not reverted from the marketing speil version thats there now to my rewrite as I've done it three times already. Thom has already reverted four times so he's been reported as a vandal.
 * Also, the two of you might like to notw that you don't need HTML formatting here. Paragraphs are automatic and bolding/italics should be done with Wiki formatting code. Then again, as neither of you are real contributors here (all you've done is revert here and remove relevent info from John Kerry, for instance), you wouldn't have noticed that <-- this is the type of biased, irrelevant nonsense that you posted on the SkyOS Wiki entry. What does what you just posted here have to do with this discussion? I thought we were discussing SkyOS. Now, you are trying to ridicule us. Are your arguments so baseless that you have to resort to attacks like this?

Kiand 18:20, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Just to correct myself. You (Hexydes) did make a few non-SkyOS fanboyism related edits a few months ago. Nothing since May though.Kiand 18:27, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm going to go ahead and post the e-mail I sent to BeBits developers. I sent two such e-mails, both of which were similar in wording (I'm not sure which one Kiand received, possibly both). This particular one was for a printing subsystem developer. When reading this letter, please try to determine if, at any time, it appears I am asking BeBits developers to "switch teams", or if I am simply trying to find out if anyone with relevant experience at a well-established development site (which I used to frequent quite a lot in my BeOS days) is interested in helping us out with something: Hello, If you are receiving this message, it is because you were listed at BeBits as having written something relevant to printing services or applications. If you do not reply to this message, you will not receive any further e-mails from us. SkyOS (http://www.skyos.org) is looking for someone with a great deal of experience writing printer-specific code to help develop a printing subsystem for our operating system. Specifically, the ideal candidate will have: - a very strong understanding and knowledge of the C language - a very detailed knowledge of what PCL is -  the ability to write printer drivers - the ability to manage big projects (The entire printer system) - knowledge of how to design the required communication interfaces between SkyGI (graphics system) --> Printer system - knowledge of how to design the required communication interfaces between Printer system --> drivers If you think you fit this skill set, and are interested in developing a printing subsystem for a cutting edge operating system, please respond back, stating your interest. Thank you for your time. Again, if you do not reply to this message, you will not receive any further e-mails from us. Regards, Kelly Rush  That is the letter in it's entirety (minus my removed, non-functioning e-mail address). Feel free to make your own judgements about what our intentions were.

 * No, I'm just letting you know you're wasting a few seconds with each line/paragraph

 * Now, what exactly is wrong with my rewrite? Is it not fanactical enough for you? It states the facts, and thats about it. Reduces the screenshots to one. This question goes to Kelly and to Thom

 * Kiand 18:40, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

1) The GPL says nothing about a timespan between source-code request and source code delivery. Therefore, what justifies your zealotry claim that Robert did not comply to the GPL by giving you the source code three weekas after your request? Please, enlighten me. Besides, a test of n=1 is not statistically significant.

2) John Kerry? I haven't edited his article, and I don't even care about US "politics", since I'm from Europe.

3) It is now more than obvious that you belong to that small militant FSF-inspired group that has nothing better to do than what you are currently doing. I hope you enjoy it.

--Thom Holwerda

 * Kelly edited John Kerry, not you Again, what relevancy does this have with what we are discussing? Are you making an attempt to "characterize" me? Again, are your arguments so weak that you must attempt to defame me in order to make your cause more successful?
 * and once again - I am not some OSS nut. I hate the sodding GPL, its too damn restrictive, and I'd never start a new project under it. I do however contribute to existing GPL projects, and it was one of them I obtained the diffs for. I don't see myself as inspired by anyone, but certainly not the FSF.
 * Kiand 18:45, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Keep in mind you can be an "OSS nut" without liking the GPL. There are other OSS licenses around. Open source license -- aphistic 06:15, 24 Oct 2004

Responding to: "What does it matter that Robert works a 90 hour week? Clearly the OS is a hobby, but that doesn't give him the right to use that as an excuse to avoid complying with the GPL." How was Robert avoiding compliance with the GPL? The GPL makes no attempt to place a timeframe on when you should receive the changed source. Robert's extremely busy schedule isn't an excuse, it is an explanation at why it took three weeks.

Kiand, you refuse to answer my question: "Therefore, what justifies your zealotry claim that Robert did not comply to the GPL by giving you the source code three weekas after your request? Please, enlighten me. "

--Thom Holwerda

 * Bah! Would you please stop using HTML markup to post here! Paragraphs are AUTOMATIC. Italics are done with '' at the start and end
 * You were using his schedule as an excuse for the time delay. Explanation/excuse, its the same thing.
 * Oh, and the Kerry comment was because what you removed basically amounted to vandalism there as well.
 * He took three weeks, at least. It may have been more but three is a good guess as a start. And it took a lot of chasing. Seemed to me and other team members like there was specific evasion going on

- In other words, you cannot back your statement that Robert violated the GPL. Good that that's now cleared up.

--Thom Holwerda

 * I never said he did. I said there have been accusations he did. Look at any OSNews talkback on SkyOS to find lots of people, people who are not me, accusing it. I just gave my own story, and stated it in my rewrite (that getting diffs from him takes its time)

Kiand 19:10, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

- Kiand wrote: "What does it matter that Robert works a 90 hour week? Clearly the OS is a hobby, but that doesn't give him the right to use that as an excuse to avoid complying with the GPL."

Here you say that Robert violated the GPL. But anyway, we just cleared up that you could not back that up, so it is now irrelevant. And because it is irrelevant, it deserves no place in the article. Your second lie was the spamming of the BeOS Dev. list. Kelly posted his email, clearly exposing your lie.

Now, who's the vandalist here? Us, who are trying to put up a balanced article on Wikipedia, or you, who keeps on telling lies about SkyOS?

--Thom Holwerda - So it doesn't matter to you that SkyOS does NOT violate the GPL? You simply write what you hear from other people? What if someone said SkyOS was the third man on the grassy knoll? Would you also include that in your Wikipedia writeup? These people that are claiming SkyOS violates the GPL do not follow SkyOS, are not beta testers, have never even USED SkyOS before, and basically wait for an OSNews article about SkyOS to pop up to claim that it violates the GPL, with absolutely no factual evidence to back it up, simply because they do not care for our project and are attempting to character assassinate us (which, thankfully, 99/100 people see right through). These are the people whose word you are basing your writeup on. So now you don't even know if the three weeks was how long it took. Maybe it took more? Maybe less? Once again, you aren't basing what you're saying on the actual facts. Now, you claim that three weeks is a long time. I'm pretty sure, considering Robert's circumstances that no one aside from you would consider that a long time, but irregardless of that, please tell us, what do you constitute as an appropriate length of time for the code to be delivered to you? One week? One day? One hour? Instantly? Pre-cognition so that Robert can send the code before you even ask for it? Robert sent the code. If it had taken months, that would be one thing, but honestly, is three weeks really that long? I know you do not want to make any attempt to understand how busy Robert is, but that is a factor. It's not like Robert sits around waiting, hoping for someone to contact him about SkyOS. We get literally hundreds of e-mails per week asking various questions about SkyOS, and all of this is divided between two people, Robert and myself. Sometimes, it takes a little bit of time for us to get to everything. Even new beta tester signups take a week for us to clear and activate. You stated: "Seemed to me and other team members like there was specific evasion going on". Please, tell me, why would we avoid you? Do you think the OpenTTD code is the secret to what makes SkyOS tick, and if we gave you the code back, our plot would be foiled? Seriously, I want you to entertain me with what purpose you believe we would have of keeping the code from you. -Kelly -

 * So it doesn't matter to you that SkyOS does NOT violate the GPL?

 * This might seem odd to you, but: no, it doesn't. This is an encyclopedia article. It is not the purpose of Wikipedia to investigate the claims and responses and make a judgement call as to whether SkyOS violates the GPL or not. The purpose of Wikipedia is to report that these people made that claim, and that those SkyOS developers made that response. Preferably with clear links/cites/references as to when and where the claims and responses were made. The facts are, as far as I can see, that complaints have been made that the SkyOS developers do not satisfactorily provide source code for GPL'ed apps that they are distributing, and that the SkyOS developers have responded that all necessary source code is being provided as quickly as humanly possible.

 * Do you deny that that claim and that response have been made?

 * Please read the article Neutral point of view, hopefully it will help you understand that false accusations are just as worthy of being documented on Wikipedia as true ones. —Stormie 01:25, Oct 22, 2004 (UTC)

Stop This
As someone who simply wanted to make use of this article today, can I please ask you to stop this. If you want a battle, go away and do it elsewhere. This is not the place for it. As someone who is completely unbiased (I am not a SkyOS user/developer/hater - I tried it for the first time today) I'd like to make the following observations:

1. In my opinion, the article IS biased and contains more information than I consider "encyclopedic". The replacement wasn't much better.

2. Any debates about GPL compliance have no place here. May I suggest interested parties ask the FSF for clarification as to the issues involved.

3. An "edit war" is not helpful and is causing unnecessary disruption.

Would people be willing to leave the page alone, and let me make it genuinely more balanced? If we can't sort this out, the only option left is to get this page protected. -- David Johnson

Rule Violation
I notice that Thom has now gone to five reverts, two over the suggested limits (three). What I've done has not violated any Wikipedia policies, however promotion and constant reverting do. Stop whinging about an article not being a perfect promo for you when you're violating rules.

Kiand 22:42, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps a vote is called for?
I don't support the edit war going on or the constant reverting, I think it's getting out of hand and perhaps some form of vote as to what version should be used should be taken.

Frankly, I think the rewrite is just as biased in the other direction (although it can be at least somewhat fixed by removing some of the loaded language). Since they both seem to be about as bad as each other in their own way, I'm personally in favour of keeping the first version, since it's longer and has more content. Shane King 23:26, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)

 * A good idea, to an extent, until you realise that the forum collaborators who wrote this will probably attempt to get other members of their forum to come and vote for the promotional version.

 * Kiand 23:37, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * My understanding is that there are already rules in place about sock puppets (ie non anon user votes, no votes by people with a small number of edits, etc). Shane King 00:19, Oct 22, 2004 (UTC)

SkyOS Forums Sockpuppetry.
It's great to see that this page now has the wrath of the SkyOS forums (Hexydres, Thom, GregV) coming in here to do nothing but revert. Sockpuppetry in the highest.

Kiand 14:27, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

---

Kiand, why are you allowed to revert, and call up other people to do so, and we aren't? Can you please explain that to me? You are unable to back ANY of your claims, and yet YOUR version remains up.

Wikipedia, where OSS zealotry is more important than factual information.

Go ahead, block me again, but remember that the SkyOS community is large.

--Thom Holwerda

 * At no stage have I asked anyone else to revert - check talk pages, etc if you want. However, what goes on in the private forums on SkyOS's site, I don't know. Oh, and large me arse. FreeDOS probably has more users Kiand 16:50, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Since when did I do it because HEXYDES (tricky spelling.. isn't it...) I did it because I want the truth to be told... no where is SkyOS in violation of the GPL and you blatently lieing (to make yourself look good, to be a jerk, who really knows...) in unexceptable... GregV

SkyOS did NOT violate GPL
SkyOS did not violate the GPL!

There is no time limit between source request, and receiving GTK, GAIM, AbiWord, etc's sources are avalable on request (see point 1) There is no *nix device drivers/moduals/addons embedded inside the SkyOS kernel Similiar tools are available on SkyOS that are available in *nix: they do not violoate the GPL

Please stop abusing a public resource.
Is it at all possible for you guys to stop being dicks?

I came here once; there was a poorly written article that attacks SkyOS; I hit refresh because I'm about to make that article suck a little less (because that's how Wikipedia works, bai-bee!) and the page has been replaced with a full blown advertisement for SkyOS.

This is a informational public resource, not your goddamn playground where people think they can cleverly slap an advertisement on the Wikipedia and consider it "cute and informational" or where it can be used as a focal point for a smear campaign against someone else.

Seriously, grow up - if none of you people can handle your twitchy fingers and your whole "ooh, i'll make them pay now!!!' attitude, then drop the node entirely and let someone else who is not insane fill in the relevant information.

title: Talk:SkyOS/previous discussion


text:
Talk:Agrippa (crater)

Untitled
Concerning the crater's namesake:

''According to the Gazetteer of Planetary Nomenclature, Agrippa was named for a Greek astronomer (died AD 92). However, when considered in its proximity to the crater Julius Caesar, it is as likely that this crater was named for Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa (63-12 BC), a Roman general and statesman. It was Agrippa who commanded Octavian's fleet in the victory at Actium (31 BC) over the combined forces of the Roman general Mark Antony and Queen Cleopatra of Egypt-effectively ending their plot to overthrow Octavian. Earlier, in 36 BC, Agrippa had defeated Sextus Pompeius in two naval battles (Mylae and Naulochus), thus helping Octavian (the heir to Julius Caesar) become sole ruler of the Roman Empire.'' (see: )

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title: Talk:Agrippa (crater)


text: Category:Mannerism

title: Category:Mannerism


text: Category:1185 deaths

title: Category:1185 deaths