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Talk:Wonderful Radio London

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I am creating this page while updating and expanding the entry for "Pirate Radio". In 1984 I interviewed Don Pierson for a radio broadcast and some of this material has now been published with my cooperation by Sibiu University Press under the authorship of Dr. Eric Gilder. I will be drawing upon this material and my lasting friendship with Don Pierson who turned over to me all of his official records concerning the creation of Wonderful Radio London and his other offshore radio stations: "Swinging Radio England" and "Britain Radio". I will also be creating page entries for these stations as time permits and linking them all through the "Pirate Radio" entry. MPLX/MH 21:30, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Why I removed the following item to this page
The Wonderful Radio London Story (Jumbo Records, UK, 1997) is a 3-CD audio documentary comprising narration, interviews and clips from programmes. It is now out of print but may be available secondhand.
 * This is a contested copyright issue. Please see the external link: http://radlon.bravehost.com/index.html

However, the contributor is in the legal position of being able to contribute this information from its original source, not the source cited above, due to the fact that some of the contested material - especially the exclusive interview with Don Pierson and a lot of documented material about the origin of the station, comes from Don Pierson archives in the legal possession of the contributor to this article and this is one reason why this information is now being made available for everyone by these contributions to "Wonderful Wiki"! By the way, I am also in the process of creating a Don Pierson biography on Wikipedia. I have not had time to complete it as of this date. MPLX/MH 00:32, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Reference is made to the publication of a 3-cd set in the nineties (?). May I just point out there was a 2-LP set issued by Ray Anderson/EAP in the early 1970's, to complement other double LP releses related to priate radio, including Caroline and RNI. I know of, but not the detail of, some questionable copyright problems, which is not my concern --Keith 16:44, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Photo
If you have a photo of RL's vessel, please upload it. --kingboyk 06:45, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Done! - Ian Dunster 13:48, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I have added a picture of Don Pierson and other details which I intend to expand. Fragilethreads 04:48, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

John Yorke ambiguous?
The reference to John Yorke appears ambiguous. The Wikipedia article for John Yorke makes no mention of any involvement with pirate radio. Although it appears he is a BBC TV producer, so I am not sure if it is the same person or not. Does anybody know? Charles 20:05, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

John Yorke (or Yorke) was indeed a BBC Producer and he did make a short-lived appearance as a Radio London DJ.

Mary Payne, Radio London webmaster —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.208.123.8 (talk) 15:09, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Are we sure it is one and the same person. The person needed to be aged 18 at least in 1967, and therefore, would now be aged app 60??. I query only on basis there is no reference on his personal page, and nothing dated before "late 1980's following university". Sorry, doesnt ring right --Keith 17:45, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

My apologies. I'm getting my Johns mixed up! It was Jon Sedd who spent a short spell on Radio London and went on to become a radio and TV newsreader (Yorkshire TV) and producer under his real name of John Crosse. He retired ( I think to America) some years ago and we have not heard from him for quite a while.

John Yorke, who came from Brooklyn, was 24 years old when he spent a couple of weeks on the station in 1967. (According to Brian Long's book 'The London Sound') His real name is believed to be John Young and he is one of the few offshore DJs who have never been traced.

Mary Payne, Radio London webmaster —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.208.123.8 (talk) 17:29, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Radio London Ship - MV Galaxy.jpg
Image:Radio London Ship - MV Galaxy.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 03:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:John Peel.jpg
The image Image:John Peel.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
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The following images also have this problem:

 * Image:Kenny Everett.jpg

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --01:31, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

incorrect use of file name
Who named this Wonderful Radio London???. The "Wonderful" part was only ever used in promotional material. The namne used within text in news stories, and on air was simply "Radio London" --Keith 23:00, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Spot on! But almost two years have passed and, well ... IXIA (talk) 22:13, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Jingles / connection with BBC Radio One
It's well-known that the start-up of Radio One in August 1967 was to satisfy the demand for pop-music broadcasting which the BBC had previously ignored, only for the pirate stations to move in and fill the gap.

However, reading this article, it seems to me that at least two early Radio One jingles can be traced back to Radio London; the "Radio One is wonderful" jingle (which is also a pun; later parodied by a comedy show as "Radio Prune is prunederful") and the "Tower of Power" jingle which referenced Radio London boasting (in both senses) the most powerful antenna mast in pirate radio.

If references can be found for these links, so they can be included in the article, it would be great. — 188.29.36.18 (talk) 17:10, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

4FWS
4FWS redirects to this article, but I don't see it mentioned in the article. Or perhaps I missed it? -- Gyrofrog (talk) 20:16, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

title: Talk:Wonderful Radio London


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User talk:Hartzer~enwiki

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!
 * The five pillars of Wikipedia
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Whosyourjudas (talk) 21:32, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

P.S. I noticed you created a page Hartzer. You actually get your own user page at User:Hartzer. You can edit this page to your heart's content; it's all yours!

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Hartzer. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Hartzer~enwiki that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name. If you think you might own all of the accounts with this name and this message is in error, please visit Special:MergeAccount to check and attach all of your accounts to prevent them from being renamed.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 00:15, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 13:38, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:Hartzer~enwiki


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ROCS Kee Lung

ROCS Kee Lung (基隆; DDG-1801) is the lead ship of her class of guided-missile destroyers currently in active service of Republic of China Navy.

History
While Kee Lung is the lead ship of her class, she was actually not the first ship in her class built. Kee Lung was formerly the American Kidd-class destroyer USS Scott (DDG-995), which was decommissioned by the United States Navy in 1998. Scott was sold to the Republic of China Navy along with the other three Kidd-class destroyers in 2001. Scott was then renamed to Kee Long was the first of the four ships to be commissioned in the Republic of China Navy which made her the lead ship in the Republic of China Navy. Ironically, the USS Kidd (DDG-993), which was the original lead ship of the class, was also sold to the Republic of China Navy in 2006 and was renamed ROCS Tso Ying (DDG-1803). For a period of time Kee Lung was tentatively named Chi Teh (紀德), a transliteration of Kidd into Chinese. But it was later decided to name her after the port of Keelung, a major naval port in northern Taiwan.

Kee Lung, along with her three sister ships, is the largest destroyer and second largest ship in displacement ever in Republic of China Navy service, only smaller than ROCS Hsu Hai (LSD-193), a dock landing ship. Kee Lung was re-fitted for service in the ROCN at Detyen's Shipyard in North Charleston, South Carolina. She was formally commissioned on 17 December 2005 along with sister ship ROCS Su Ao.

Specifications
Kee Lung is the only one of her sister ships to be equipped with LAMPS III system and flight deck strengthened. This enables Kee Lung to carry up to two of the more capable Sikorsky S-70(M)-1/2 Seahawk helicopters for anti-submarine warfare, compared to her sister ships.

title: ROCS Kee Lung


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Themiste

In Greek mythology, Themiste (Θεμίστη) or Themis was a Trojan princess and daughter of King Ilus II of Troad and possibly, Eurydice or Leucippe. She was the (half) sister of Laomedon, Tithonius and Telecleia. Themiste was married off by Ilus to her cousin King Capys, son of Assaracus and Hieromneme, and became the queen of Dardania. With him she became the mother of Anchises and possibly, Acoetes. The former son would later become the father of the famous Aeneas while the later one, became the father of the priest Laocoon.

title: Themiste


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Lévy process

In probability theory, a Lévy process, named after the French mathematician Paul Lévy, is a stochastic process with independent, stationary increments: it represents the motion of a point whose successive displacements are random, in which displacements in pairwise disjoint time intervals are independent, and displacements in different time intervals of the same length have identical probability distributions. A Lévy process may thus be viewed as the continuous-time analog of a random walk.

The most well known examples of Lévy processes are the Wiener process, often called the Brownian motion process, and the Poisson process. Further important examples include the Gamma process, the Pascal process, and the Meixner process. Aside from Brownian motion with drift, all other proper (that is, not deterministic) Lévy processes have discontinuous paths. All Lévy processes are additive processes.

Mathematical definition
A Lévy process is a stochastic process $$X=\{X_t:t \geq 0\}$$ that satisfies the following properties:
 * 1) $$X_0=0 \,$$ almost surely;
 * 2) Independence of increments: For any $$0 \leq t_1 < t_2<\cdots 0$$ and $$t\ge 0$$ it holds that $$\lim_{h\rightarrow 0} P(|X_{t+h}-X_t|>\varepsilon)=0.$$

If $$X$$ is a Lévy process then one may construct a version of $$X$$ such that $$t \mapsto X_t$$ is almost surely right-continuous with left limits.

Independent increments
A continuous-time stochastic process assigns a random variable Xt to each point t ≥ 0 in time. In effect it is a random function of t. The increments of such a process are the differences Xs − Xt between its values at different times t < s. To call the increments of a process independent means that increments Xs − Xt and Xu − Xv are independent random variables whenever the two time intervals do not overlap and, more generally, any finite number of increments assigned to pairwise non-overlapping time intervals are mutually (not just pairwise) independent.

Stationary increments
To call the increments stationary means that the probability distribution of any increment Xt − Xs depends only on the length t − s of the time interval; increments on equally long time intervals are identically distributed.

If $$X$$ is a Wiener process, the probability distribution of Xt − Xs is normal with expected value 0 and variance t − s.

If $$X$$ is a Poisson process, the probability distribution of Xt − Xs is a Poisson distribution with expected value λ(t − s), where λ > 0 is the "intensity" or "rate" of the process.

If $$X$$ is a Cauchy process, the probability distribution of Xt − Xs is a Cauchy distribution with density $$f(x; t) = { 1 \over \pi } \left[ { t \over x^2 + t^2 } \right] $$.

Infinite divisibility
The distribution of a Lévy process has the property of infinite divisibility: given any integer n, the law of a Lévy process at time t can be represented as the law of the sum of n independent random variables, which are precisely the increments of the Lévy process over time intervals of length t/n, which are independent and identically distributed by assumptions 2 and 3. Conversely, for each infinitely divisible probability distribution $$F$$, there is a Lévy process $$X$$ such that the law of $$X_1$$ is given by $$F$$.

Moments
In any Lévy process with finite moments, the nth moment $$\mu_n(t) = E(X_t^n)$$, is a polynomial function of t; these functions satisfy a binomial identity:

 * $$\mu_n(t+s)=\sum_{k=0}^n {n \choose k} \mu_k(t) \mu_{n-k}(s).$$

Lévy–Khintchine representation
The distribution of a Lévy process is characterized by its characteristic function, which is given by the Lévy–Khintchine formula (general for all infinitely divisible distributions): If $$ X = (X_t)_{t\geq 0} $$ is a Lévy process, then its characteristic function $$ \varphi_X(\theta) $$ is given by
 * $$\varphi_X(\theta)(t) := \mathbb{E}\left[e^{i\theta X(t)}\right] = \exp{\left(t\left(ai\theta - \frac{1}{2}\sigma^2\theta^2 + \int_{\R\setminus\{0\}}{\left(e^{i\theta x}-1 -i\theta x\mathbf{1}_{|x|<1}\right)\,\Pi(dx)}\right)\right)}

$$ where $$a \in \mathbb{R}$$, $$\sigma\ge 0$$, and $$\Pi$$ is a $σ$-finite measure called the Lévy measure of $$X$$, satisfying the property
 * $$\int_{\R\setminus\{0\}}{\min(1,x^2)\,\Pi(dx)} < \infty. $$

In the above, $$\mathbf{1}$$ is the indicator function. Because characteristic functions uniquely determine their underlying probability distributions, each Lévy process is uniquely determined by the "Lévy–Khintchine triplet" $$(a,\sigma^2, \Pi)$$. The terms of this triplet suggest that a Lévy process can be seen as having three independent components: a linear drift, a Brownian motion, and a Lévy jump process, as described below. This immediately gives that the only (nondeterministic) continuous Lévy process is a Brownian motion with drift; similarly, every Lévy process is a semimartingale.

Lévy–Itô decomposition
Because the characteristic functions of independent random variables multiply, the Lévy–Khintchine theorem suggests that every Lévy process is the sum of Brownian motion with drift and another independent random variable, a Lévy jump process. The Lévy–Itô decomposition describes the latter as a (stochastic) sum of independent Poisson random variables.

Let $$\nu=\frac{\Pi|_{\R\setminus(-1,1)}}{\Pi(\R\setminus(-1,1))}$$— that is, the restriction of $$\Pi$$ to $$\R\setminus(-1,1)$$, renormalized to be a probability measure; similarly, let $$\mu=\Pi|_{(-1,1)\setminus\{0\}}$$ (but do not rescale). Then
 * $$\int_{\R\setminus\{0\}}{\left(e^{i\theta x}-1 -i\theta x\mathbf{1}_{|x|<1}\right)\,\Pi(dx)}=\Pi(\R\setminus(-1,1))\int_{\R}{(e^{i\theta x}-1)\,\nu(dx)}+\int_{\R}{(e^{i\theta x}-1-i\theta x)\,\mu(dx)}.$$

The former is the characteristic function of a compound Poisson process with intensity $$\Pi(\R\setminus(-1,1))$$ and child distribution $$\nu$$. The latter is that of a compensated generalized Poisson process (CGPP): a process with countably many jump discontinuities on every interval a.s., but such that those discontinuities are of magnitude less than $$1$$. If $$\int_{\R}{|x|\,\mu(dx)}<\infty$$, then the CGPP is a pure jump process. Therefore in terms of processes one may decompose $$X$$ in the following way
 * $$X_t=\sigma B_t + at+Y_t+Z_t, t\geq 0,$$

where $$Y$$ is the compound Poisson process with jumps larger than $$1$$ in absolute value and $$Z_t$$ is the aforementioned compensated generalized Poisson process which is also a zero-mean martingale.

Generalization
A Lévy random field is a multi-dimensional generalization of Lévy process. Still more general are decomposable processes.

title: Lévy process


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USS Chandler (DDG-996)

USS Chandler (DDG-996) was the final ship in the Kidd class of guided-missile destroyers operated by the U.S. Navy. Derived from the Spruance class, these vessels were designed for air defense in hot weather. She was named after Rear Admiral Theodore E. Chandler.

Originally named Andushirvan, the ship was originally ordered by the Shah of Iran, but was undelivered when the 1979 Iranian Revolution occurred. Subsequent to this, the U.S. Navy elected to commission her for service in the Persian Gulf and Mediterranean Sea, as she was equipped with heavy-duty air conditioning and was also well suited to filtering sand and the results from NBC warfare. She was commissioned in 1982.

Chandler was decommissioned in 1999. She was transferred to the Republic of China, renamed Wu Teh (DDG-1805) in 2004, and finally recommissioned as ROCS Ma Kong (DDG-1805) in 2006.

Accident
In June 1985, Chandler was involved in an accident on the Columbia River. The ship itself was sued under Admiralty law in the United States by a barge owner who claimed that Chandler's negligent action on the Columbia River caused a dangerous swell called a soliton.

The District Court of Oregon heard the case and held that the officers on Chandler breached their duty to exercise reasonable care in avoiding creation of the dangerous swell and the plaintiff was able to recover for the damages.

Awards

 * Navy Meritorious Unit Commendation – (Nov 1987 - March 1988)
 * Battle "E" – (1985–86, 1988–89, 1991–92, 1994, 1997)
 * Humanitarian Service Medal – (12 December 1987) Rescue of oil tanker crew from Iran attack
 * Southwest Asia Service Medal - (1991–92)

title: USS Chandler (DDG-996)


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USS Scott (DDG-995)

USS Scott (DDG-995) was a Kidd-class destroyer of the United States Navy. She was named for Rear Admiral Norman Scott, who was killed during a surface action at the First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal (sometimes referred to as the Battle of Friday the 13th) aboard USS Atlanta, receiving a posthumous Medal of Honor for his actions.

Originally named Nader, Scott was ordered by the Shah of Iran, but was undelivered at the time of the Iranian Revolution and the U.S. Navy elected to commission her and her sister ships for service in the Persian Gulf. The destroyers were equipped with heavy-duty air conditioning and were also well suited to filtering sand and the results from NBC warfare. She was commissioned in 1981.

Scott completed a major re-fit in Philadelphia in 1988 that focused on upgrading its radar and fire control tracking system.

Scott was decommissioned from the U.S. Navy on 10 December 1998.

Current status
Scott was sold to the Republic of China in 2004, originally to be named Chi Te. However, due to her better storage condition than her sister ships, she became the first Kidd-class vessel to be commissioned by the Republic of China Navy (ROCN) and thus became ROCS Kee Lung (DDG-1801), the lead vessel of the new ROCN Kee Lung-class destroyers.

After almost two years of refit and training in the U.S., the Kee Lung was commissioned on 17 December 2005 at Keelung naval port in northern Taiwan. The ROCN paid just over $690 million for the four Kidd-class destroyers, giving it extensive anti-aircraft warfare (AAW) capabilities.

title: USS Scott (DDG-995)


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ROCS Su Ao

ROCS Su Ao (蘇澳; DDG-1802) is a Kee Lung-class destroyer guided-missile destroyer currently in active service of the Republic of China Navy. Su Ao was formerly American Kidd-class destroyer USS Callaghan (DDG-994), which was decommissioned from the United States Navy in 1998. For some time after the ship's 30 May 2003 purchase, Su Ao was tentatively named Ming Teh (明德), following the example of Chi Teh (紀德), but it was later decided to be named Su Ao, after the Su-Ao naval base in eastern Taiwan.

title: ROCS Su Ao


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Talk:The Apprentice 2 Candidates/to do

 * Add biography information from NBC website and other resources.
 * Add information on each candidate's performance on the show.
 * Add links to each candidate's official website, if he or she has one.

title: Talk:The Apprentice 2 Candidates/to do


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Talk:The Apprentice 2 candidates

Untitled
Thanks, MattTm! I guess if I weren't so lazy (and belligerent) I would have gotten around to some of this.--[[User:Nricardo|Nelson Ricardo >>Talk<<]] 22:21, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)
 * No problem. This article is coming along nicely.  I predict we'll pack it full of information, and then have people trying to split it up into separate articles.  Won't that be interesting? - MattTM 23:59, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)

Merging & redirecting of candidates
16 articles on The Apprentice 2 candidates were listed on Votes for deletion. Although the majority of votes were to delete, there was a definite body of "merge into one article and redirect" votes. Since that merging has been done here, I am exercising my discretion and doing so. If anyone has a problem with that, they can list this article on VFD. —Stormie 01:18, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)
 * I have recreated Raj Bhakta and Stacy Rotner, which were the first two VfD-deleted candidate articles, and redirected them here, for consistency. I hope this is not a problem. - MattTM 05:41, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)
 * Ah, right, they were listed on VfD and deleted before this page was created, weren't they? Thanks for that, I should have counted the number of redirects I made and noted that it was two short. —Stormie 12:14, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)
 * Yeah, they were deleted before this article was created. - MattTM 22:16, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)

List of deletion debates

 * Votes for deletion/John Willenborg
 * Votes for deletion/Chris Russo
 * Votes for deletion/Kelly Perdew
 * Votes for deletion/Wes Moss
 * Votes for deletion/Jennifer Massey
 * Votes for deletion/Ivana Ma
 * Votes for deletion/Andy Litinsky
 * Votes for deletion/Stacie Jones Upchurch
 * Votes for deletion/Elizabeth Jarosz
 * Votes for deletion/Rob Flanagan
 * Votes for deletion/Sandy Ferreira
 * Votes for deletion/Pamela Day
 * Votes for deletion/Jennifer Crisafulli
 * Votes for deletion/Bradford Cohen
 * Votes for deletion/Maria Boren
 * Votes for deletion/Kevin Allen (reality TV)

Note to Editors: Candidate Names
In order to maintain the encyclopedic tone of the article, please do not refer to candidates using their first name. Please use either their last name or he or she. I want to give haters as little reason as possible to list this on VfD. Thanks.Nelson Ricardo 15:47, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)

title: Talk:The Apprentice 2 candidates


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Same-sex marriage in Saskatchewan

Same-sex marriage became legal in Saskatchewan on November 5, 2004 as a result of a decision of the Family Law Division of the Saskatchewan Court of Queen's Bench. This decision followed similar cases in six other provinces and territories, and pre-dated by eight months the federal Civil Marriage Act of 2005, which made same-sex marriage available throughout Canada. Later court decisions have dealt with the issue of marriage commissioners who object to performing same-sex marriages on the basis of their religious beliefs.

Saskatchewan was the seventh jurisdiction in Canada, and the tenth worldwide after the Netherlands, Belgium, Ontario, British Columbia, Quebec, Massachusetts, Yukon, Manitoba and Nova Scotia, to legalise same-sex marriage.

N.W. v. Canada (Attorney General)
In the fall of 2004, five same-sex couples brought an application in the Family Law Division of the Saskatchewan Court of Queen's Bench, seeking a judgment requiring marriage licence issuers appointed by the provincial government to issue marriage licences to same-sex couples. The application was based on the argument that the traditional common-law definition of marriage discriminated against same-sex couples on the basis of sexual orientation, contrary to the equality clause of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. At the time of the application, courts in six other Canadian provinces and territories had upheld the constitutionality of same-sex marriage in Canada. The application named as parties both the Attorney General of Canada, Irwin Cotler, and the Attorney General for Saskatchewan, Frank Quennell. Both the federal and provincial governments were parties; the former because the substantive law governing the definition of marriage is a matter of federal jurisdiction under the Constitution of Canada, and the latter because marriage licence issuers are provincial officials appointed under Saskatchewan's marriage legislation. Quennell had already stated in September 2004 that he would not oppose such a court bid. The Green Party of Saskatchewan supported the couples, and had issued a statement supporting same-sex marriage rights in April 2004, "Giving same sex couples the same range of choices as opposite sex couples is a simple question of fairness and human dignity. Either this government supports equality or it does not."

On 3 November 2004, the five couples appeared before Justice Donna Wilson on the application. Neither the federal nor the provincial governments challenged the suit. Greg Walen, lawyer for one of the couples, had filed a statement of claim seeking a declaratory judgment that the common-law definition of marriage be changed to include the wording "two people to the exclusion of others", rather than "two people of the opposite sex". On 5 November, Justice Wilson ruled that the common-law opposite-sex definition of marriage violated the equality rights of same-sex couples under the Charter, and that "the common-law definition of marriage for civil purposes is declared to be 'the lawful union of two persons to the exclusion of all others.'" Justice Wilson also ordered the federal and provincial attorneys general to pay court costs to the applicants, on a solicitor-client basis, fixed at a total of $10,000, divided evenly between the two governments.

Walen of the Saskatoon law firm Scharfstein, Gibbings, Walen, & Fisher issued a statement following the court ruling that "[t]he judge found that it is unconstitutional to exclude same-sex couples from civil marriage and changed the law to include them. The judge agreed with the Ontario Court of Appeal that 'the dignity of persons in same-sex relationships is violated by the exclusion of same-sex couples from the institution of marriage'....The judge agreed with the Yukon court that the province had a choice whether or not to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples, and it chose not to. As a result, costs were awarded on an increased scale against both the province and the federal government." Spokespeople for Canadians for Equal Marriage, Egale Canada and the Saskatchewan Federation of Labour welcomed the court decision. James Hein-Blackmore, a plaintiff in the case, said, "What this means to me is peace of mind. The day we were married was a great day of happiness as we professed our love to one another. But not having our marriage recognized here in Saskatchewan was a great burden. Now I know that no matter what happens in our lives or our health, I can rest assured that my husband will have all the legal rights to handle things the way we want them." Attorney General Quennell said he would not appeal the decision.

M.J. v. Nichols
In 2005, Orville Nichols, a 30-year marriage commissioner and devout Baptist, refused to marry a same-sex couple, M.J. and B.R., because it conflicted with his religious beliefs. M.J. filed a complaint under the Saskatchewan Human Rights Code that "Mr. Nichols refused to perform a marriage between M.J. and B.R. on the basis of the prohibited ground of M.J.'s sexual orientation." The Saskatchewan Human Rights Tribunal ordered Nichols to pay $2,500 in compensation to the couple for infringing their right to access public services without discrimination. In 2009, the Saskatchewan Court of Queen's Bench dismissed Nichols' appeal.

The Saskatchewan Government followed by proposing legislation which would have allowed marriage commissioners to refuse for this reason. In January 2011, on a reference question, the Saskatchewan Court of Appeal ruled that such a law would be unconstitutional. It was estimated at the time that about 1% of the existing marriage commissioners would resign or be fired because they were unwilling to issue licences to same-sex couples. Provincial law permits religious bodies and officials—but not marriage commissioners—to refuse to perform a marriage in their place of worship for religious reasons.

Provincial legislation
In 2001, the Legislative Assembly of Saskatchewan passed two statutes, the Miscellaneous Statutes (Domestic Relations) Amendment Act, 2001, and the Miscellaneous Statutes (Domestic Relations) Amendment Act, 2001 (No. 2), which together changed the definition of "spouse" in 24 provincial laws to treat same-sex couples equally to opposite-sex couples. The changes included the areas of adoption, spousal support, inheritance rights, pensions, and property rights. This meant that same-sex couples were given the right adopt children jointly. The two acts received royal assent by Lieutenant Governor Lynda Haverstock on 6 July 2001.

Historically, the provincial Marriage Act, 1995 required marriage commissioners to pronounce a newlywed couple as "husband and wife". In 2021, the Legislative Assembly of Saskatchewan repealed the Act and enacted in its stead the Marriage Act, 2021, which received royal assent by Lieutenant Governor Russell Mirasty on 13 May 2021. The new law uses gender-neutral language with regard to married spouses. Section 5-9(2) of the Act states that each of the parties shall, in the presence of the marriage commissioner and the witnesses, declare:

"I call on these persons here present to witness that I, A.B., do take you, C.D., to be my lawful wedded spouse. [SS 2021, c 16, s.5-9(2)(b)]"

Marriage statistics
The 2016 Canadian census showed that there were 1,070 same-sex couples living in Saskatchewan.

The first same-sex marriage in La Loche in the Clearwater River Dene Nation was performed in summer 2018 for a Dene two-spirit couple.

Religious performance
In July 2019, the synod of the Anglican Church of Canada passed a resolution known as "A Word to the Church", allowing its dioceses to choose whether to perform same-sex marriages. Following the vote, the Diocese of Saskatoon announced that its clergy would be permitted to solemnise same-sex marriages. Same-sex marriages are not performed in the Diocese of Qu'Appelle, which encompasses the southern third of Saskatchewan. The marriage canon of the Anglican Church of Canada serves as the canon on marriage in the diocese. The Diocese of Saskatchewan likewise does not perform same-sex marriages.

A same-sex couple was married on December 31, 2014 in a Mennonite congregation in Saskatoon, the first same-sex marriage in the Mennonite Church Canada.

title: Same-sex marriage in Saskatchewan


text:
Type-in program

A type-in program or type-in listing was computer source code printed in a home computer magazine or book. It was meant to be entered via the keyboard by the reader and then saved to cassette tape or floppy disk. The result was a usable game, utility, or application program.

Type-in programs were common in the home computer era from the late 1970s through the early 1990s, when the RAM of 8-bit systems was measured in kilobytes and most computer owners did not have access to networks such as bulletin board systems.

Magazines such as Softalk, Compute!, ANALOG Computing, and Ahoy! dedicated much of each issue to type-in programs. The magazines could contain multiple games or other programs for a fraction of the cost of purchasing commercial software on removable media, but the user had to spend up to several hours typing each one in. Most listings were either in a system-specific BASIC dialect or machine code. Machine code programs were long lists of decimal or hexadecimal numbers, often in the form of  statements in BASIC. Most magazines had error checking software to make sure a program was typed correctly.

Type-in programs did not carry over to 16-bit computers such as the Amiga and Atari ST in a significant way, as both programs and data (such as graphics) became much larger. It became common to include a covermount 3 $1/2$-inch floppy disk or CD-ROM with each issue of a magazine.

Description
A reader would take a printed copy of the program listing, such as from a magazine or book, sit down at a computer, and manually enter the lines of code. Computers of this era automatically booted into a programming environment – even the commands to load and run a prepackaged program were really programming commands executed in direct mode. After typing the program in, the user would be able to run it and also to save it to disk or a cassette for future use. Users were often cautioned to save the program before running it, as errors could result in a crash requiring a reboot, which would render the program irretrievable unless it had been saved. While some type-in programs were short, simple utility or demonstration programs, many type-ins were fully functional games or application software, sometimes rivaling commercial packages.

Type-ins were usually written in BASIC or a combination of a BASIC loader and machine code. In the latter case, the opcodes and operands of the machine code part were often simply given as DATA statements within the BASIC program, and were loaded using a POKE loop, since few users had access to an assembler. In some cases, a special program for entering machine code numerically was provided. Programs with a machine code component sometimes included assembly language listings for users who had assemblers and who were interested in the internal workings of the program.

The downside of type-ins was labor. The work required to enter a medium-sized type-in was on the order of hours. If the resulting program turned out not to be to the user's taste, it was quite possible that the user spent more time keying in the program than using it. Additionally, type-ins were error-prone, both for users and for the magazines. This was especially true of the machine code parts of BASIC programs, which were nothing but line after line of data, e.g. DATA statements in the BASIC language. In some cases where the version of ASCII used on the type of computer the program was published for included printable characters for each value from 0–255, the code could have been printed using strings that contained the glyphs that the values mapped to, or a mnemonic such as [SHIFT-R] instructing the user which keys to press. While a BASIC program would often stop with an error at an incorrect statement, the machine code parts of a program could fail in untraceable ways. This made the correct entry of programs difficult.

Other solutions existed for the tedium of typing in seemingly-endless lines of code. Freelance authors wrote most magazine type-in programs and, in the accompanying article, often provided readers a mailing address to send a small sum (US$3 was typical) to buy the program on disk or tape. By the mid-1980s, recognising this demand from readers, many US-published magazines offered all of each issue's type-ins on an optional disk, often with a bonus program or two. Some of these disks became electronic publications in their own right, outlasting their parent magazine as happened with Loadstar. Some UK magazines occasionally offered a free flexi disc that played on a turntable connected to the microcomputer's cassette input. Other input methods, such as the Cauzin Softstrip, were tried, without much success.

Not all type-ins were long. Run magazine's "Magic" column specialized in one-liner programs for the Commodore 64. These programs were often graphic demos or meant to illustrate a technical quirk of the computer's architecture; the text accompanying the graphics demo programs would avoid explicitly describing the resultant image, enticing the reader to type it in.

History
Type-in programs preceded the home computer era. As David H. Ahl wrote in 1983:

"In 1971, while education product line manager at Digital Equipment Corp., I put out a call for games to educational institutions throughout North America. I was overwhelmed with the response. I selected the best games and put them together in a book, 101 Basic Computer Games. After putting the book together on my own time, I convinced reluctant managers at DEC to publish it. They were convinced it wouldn't sell. It, plus its sequel, More Basic Computer Games have sold over half a million copies proving that people are intrigued by computer games."

Upon Ahl's departure from DEC in July 1974, he initiated a bimonthly magazine titled Creative Computing while serving as an educational marketing manager at AT&T. The inaugural issue was released in October of that year, and by the fourth year, a team of eight individuals were working on it. The magazine featured computer games and its debut coincided with the introduction of the Altair 8800 - the first widely accessible computer kit - which was announced in January 1975, according to Ahl.

Most early computer magazines published type-in programs. The professional and business-oriented journals such as Byte and Popular Computing printed them less frequently, often as a test program to illustrate a technical topic covered in the magazine rather than an application for general use. Consumer-oriented publications such as Compute! and Family Computing ran several each issue. The programs were sometimes specific to a given home computer and sometimes compatible with several computers. Platform-specific magazines such as Compute!'s Gazette (VIC-20 and Commodore 64) and Antic (Atari 8-bit computers), since they only had to print one version of each program, were able to print more, longer listings.

Although type in programs were usually copyrighted, like the many games in BASIC Computer Games, authors often encouraged users to modify them, adding capabilities or otherwise changing them to suit their needs. Many authors used the article accompanying the type-ins to suggest modifications for the reader and programmer to perform. Users would sometimes send their changes back into the magazine for later publication. This could be considered a predecessor to open source software, but today most open source licenses specify that code be available in a machine-readable format.

Antic stated in 1985 that its staff "spends a good portion of our time diligently combing the incoming submissions for practical application programs. We receive a lot of disk directory programs, recipe file storers, mini word processors, and other rehashed versions of old ideas". While most type-ins were simple games or utilities and likely only to hold a user's interest for a short time, some were very ambitious, rivaling commercial software. Perhaps the most famous example is the type-in word processor SpeedScript, published by Compute!'s Gazette and Compute! for several 8-bit computers starting in 1984. Compute! also published SpeedScript, along with some accessory programs, in book form. It retained a following into the next decade as users refined and added capabilities to it.

Compute! discontinued type-in programs in May 1988, stating "As computers and software have grown more powerful, we've realized it's not possible to offer top quality type-in programs for all machines. And we also realize that you're less inclined to type in those programs". As the cost of cassette tapes and floppy disks declined, and as the sophistication of commercial programs and the technical capabilities of the computers they ran on steadily increased, the importance of the type-in declined. In Europe, magazine covermount disks became common, and type-ins became virtually non-existent.

Validation software
To prevent errors when typing in listings, most publications provided short programs to verify that code was entered correctly. These were specific to a magazine or family of magazines, and different validation programs were usually used for BASIC source and binary data.

Compute! and Compute!'s Gazette printed a short listing in each issue for The Automatic Proofreader to check BASIC programs, while ANALOG Computing used D:CHECK (for disk) and C:CHECK (for cassette tape). For binary listings, Compute! offered MLX, which was an interactive program for entering data. ANALOG Computing presented machine code programs as BASIC  statements, then prepended a short program to compute checksums. Running the program output a list of values to be checked against those printed in the magazine. Upon successful validation, the program was saved as a binary file and the BASIC code no longer needed. The MIKBUG machine code monitor for the Motorola 6800 of the late 1970s incorporated a checksum into its hexadecimal program listings.

title: Type-in program


text:
Talk:Adaptations of Puss in Boots

Images from Shrek 2
Has permission really been given to include an illustration from Shrek 2 in this article? --193.11.221.16 21:50, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * Replaced with a public domain image, and put imagevio tag on the copyrighted image. -Wikibob | Talk 00:31, 2004 Sep 29 (UTC)

Adaptation
There used to be a brand of cat food named puss n boots. Pendragon39 00:55, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Making Puss in Boots a disambiguation page
I'll be rearranging some articles & redirects to create a new disambiguation page. There are too many articles with the names Puss in Boots or Puss 'n' Boots. These include an opera, video games, movies (merging that page with the new one), several characters, this fairy tale, a television episode, and a music album. With an alphabetical list this article will be third in the list 18, so hopefully that will be good enough for the editors of this article.

That means I'll also be renaming this article to Puss in Boots (fairy tale). Give me several minutes to make the changes as there are many unorganized links pointing all over right now. If you need to talk to me, feel free to leave a message on my talk page. Thanks! Chupper 16:13, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't the original fairy tale be a Puss in Boots though?--86.88.18.236 03:22, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Cagliuso
Is not Gagliuso, is Cagliuso
 * I got a reference that says otherwise. Goldfritha 19:56, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * .My reference is a original italian edition of the book.--Britzingen 17:37, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Analysis
"but if there is a lesson to be learned from "Puss in Boots" it seems to be that trickery and deceit pays off more rapidly (and handsomely) than do hard work and talent."

Isnt this a bit weak? I mean, to me its pretty obvious that lesson to be learned is that it pays off to be nice to those who are talented, even if their talent appears useless at the moment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.235.136.245 (talk) 17:43, August 26, 2007 (UTC)

Dubious
This article says that William Shatner dubbed The True History of Puss 'N Boots. But the Big Cartoon Database lists no English-language performers that I noticed, and IMDb says Richard Dumont voiced the cat in the English version of La Véritable histoire du Chat botté. I don't see Shatner listed there. Cnilep (talk) 04:37, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Shatner is listed on IMDb and on the Wikipedia article The True History of Puss 'N Boots Kidburla (talk) 12:31, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

External links modified
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title: Talk:Adaptations of Puss in Boots


text:
Talk:Flogging a dead horse/Archive 1

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No decision.

Vote for delete
from VfD: This entry explains a single English idiom. At length. With examples. As Wikipedia is not a dictionary, there does not seem to be much to do with this article but delete it. -- Antaeus Feldspar 21:51, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. This VfD is a vindictive listing by a disgruntled editor who has been in a revert war with me and is stalking my edits. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 [[Image:Happyjoe.jpg]] ]] 22:17, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. More abuse of VFD. Mark Richards 22:28, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete Redirect to list of idioms, which I didn't know about when I originally voted. These really seem more appropriate for another project. Articles about catchphrases/idioms aren't necessarily inappropriate, but they need a lot of meat to not be simply dictionary entries. For an example, see All your base are belong to us. [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 22:35, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep keep. yet perhaps a bit to much in-depth --84.129.24.87 22:36, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Dictdef.   — Gwalla | Talk 22:42, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Definition. Gamaliel [[Image:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 23:11, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Redirect to to List of idioms in the English language. Gamaliel [[Image:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 23:24, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Comment: Added this to List of idioms in the English language. Not at all sure how we should approach idioms, although you don't usually find them in the AHD, IIRC. - RedWordSmith 23:19, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Ambi 00:18, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. The delete votes couldn't possibly be because of the article's author, could they? Rhobite 00:27, Sep 29, 2004 (UTC)
 * Actually, no, and I'd thank you for not impugning my motives. [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 01:13, Sep 29, 2004 (UTC)
 * That's the wrong question to ask. The question to ask is "Is this an encyclopedic entry (keep) or is it not (delete, redirect, or some other option)?"  It is more likely that the keep votes are because of the article's author, since so many of them mention him while failing to address why the article is or should be an exception to Wikipedia is not a slang or idiom guide.  -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:43, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * I don't believe VFD voters are required to explain themselves, but my comment was an aside. I believe this should be kept because it is encyclopedic. This isn't a dicdef, and I believe notable idioms deserve articles. Rhobite 03:06, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)
 * The rationale behind keeping out slang/idioms is to avoid making up individual pages for passing fad slang language such as Bart Simpson's catch phrase of "don't have a cow man". On the other hand, some phrases have such broad based usage over time that they have long since become part of the American dialect. An example of that would be the Straw that broke the camel's back. Now not only is that too listed on the idioms page (see link above), but it also has it's own article page as well. And some idioms such as Beating a dead horse do have roots in cultural phenomenom, in this case, a reference to the handling of horses. People are indeed interested in American cultural ephemera, especially those things which have taken root over time. This page should be kept. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 [[Image:Happyjoe.jpg]] ]] 06:06, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep (first preference) or redirect to List of idioms in the English language (second preference). —No-One Jones (m) 00:29, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Redirect to List of idioms in the English language. It's a definition.  -- WOT 05:05, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Redirect. Possibly this phrase is notable to be kept, but it's too hard to find a line, so just redirect it to the list to prevent to many articles being created. I've always said flogging a dead horse, though. 212.219.56.194 09:56, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * IP vote was me, Darksun
 * Keep We have lots of articles on similar topics, like death of a thousand cuts and not invented here. I don't want my readers to have to go elsewhere just to understand a term they may not have heard of before. After all, this is an english term, not all of our readers are english.
 * Comment I am unaware of any consensus on whether to keep or delete this kind of article, and have no strong feeling myself. Does anyone know of any further discussion on the topic? --Improv 12:29, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete or redirect. It is obviously a dictdef. If you want to try putting it in Wiktionary, fine. If you have an article which uses the phrase, you can even interwiki link to it. But an article here is in clear violation of the sensible policy, "Wikipedia is not a dictionary". Oh, and "death of a thousand cuts" and "not invented here" do not exist, and I just nominated "straw that broke the camel's back" for deletion also. Securiger 14:11, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * "Death by a thousand cuts" (rather than "Death of a thousand cuts") is an article, but it's about the actual historical execution method. Its idiomatic usage is mentioned but it's not the meat of the article.  -- Antaeus Feldspar
 * Transwiki to Wiktionary. This is a dicdef (a discussion of the meaning and usage of a word or phrase).  I see no possibility of expansion. Rossami 16:45, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Redirect to List of idioms in the English language and add it there (and the British English variant/orginal "flogging a dead horse"). Neither deserve their own page. --G Rutter 19:59, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete, not a handbook of idioms. Fuzheado | Talk 20:41, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Redirect to List of idioms in the English language and transwiki to Wiktionary. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (talk)]] 23:18, Sep 29, 2004 (UTC)
 * Merge and redirect. The List of idioms in the English language could easily contain more information about the various expressions. [[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 23:52, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Mikkalai 04:54, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Ntk 21:47, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. The Recycling Troll 15:24, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Redirect to List of idioms in the English language. It's a long definition with examples, but what we have in List of idioms is very adequate.  If Rex thinks something more should be added, I'd say add it to the List of idioms article at the Beating a dead horse entry.  Fair enough?  --avnative 18:41, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Don't use VFD as a blunt object for hitting people. --Tmh 21:39, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Hi, Tmh! I'm introducing myself because I don't think we've ever met.  Not that this has stopped you from insulting my character, by ignoring the reasons I put out above for why this entry would deserve deletion -- none of which have anything to do with the identity of its creator, who would not be its owner in any case -- and making snide reference instead to VfD being used as a "blunt object for hitting people".  You know something?  If you don't want VfD being used as a "blunt object for hitting people", then why don't you stop using it that way.  Why don't you back up that "Keep" vote with, oh, gee, I dunno, maybe some reasons that actually address the article itself?  If you think you can come up with a cogent argument why the entry isn't a dictdef, or why the policy should be stretched to let this one dictdef in, then I will be the first one to welcome it here.  But these baseless attacks on my character, and on the characters of those who simply applying the same Wikipedia policies that are supposed to apply to all entries and all Wikipedians are unconscionable and unforgivable.  -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:00, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

I know i might be beating a dead horse here but keep The Heakes (talk) 05:03, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

stables and barns
I agree with that technically "stable" is the right word and "barn" is not, but "closing the barn door" is still widely used. Idiom isn't always sensible. -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:06, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Quite so, but I tried about eight permutations of wording on Google (shutting/closing, barn/stable, gets out/bolted) and went with the version with the most hits. Securiger 16:56, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Excellent research. In this region I've always heard "barn door", never "stable door", but it looks like it's just this region. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:06, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Link
I think the 'jokes at the expence of the Pentagon' link seems rather POV; it also provides little or no information on the topic. • →  Iñgólemo  ←•  01:49, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)

well, since the whole article is a dictdef anyways, a link to a series of jokes about horses being beaten seems about as close as we're going to get to any sort of encyclopedic value in the article. I'm not too worried about the POV, though; the specificity of the joke (and the use of jargon like "Tiger Team", "IPT", "BRAC") convinces me that these are jokes from insiders. Surely we don't need to dismiss people's jokes about themselves as too POV? -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:15, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Fair enough.  •  →  Iñgólemo  ←•  21:31, 2004 Nov 12 (UTC)

 * Hmmmmm, maybe the description "at the expense of" makes it seem more POV than it is? -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:27, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Rename
This article should be renamed "flogging a dead horse", and "beating a dead horse" should be redirected to it. The origin of the idiom is English (British) and is actually "flogging a dead horse". To say that in Australian and British "it is usually rendered", gives the impression that it is an American idiom, adopted and adapted by the British, whereas the reverse is actually the case.

To quote an external reference to the origins:

"flog (or beat) a dead horse. Though he supported the measure, British politician and orator John Bright thought the Reform Bill of 1867, which called for more democratic representation, would never be passed by Parliament. Trying to rouse Parliament from its apathy on the issue, he said in a speech, would be like trying to 'flog a dead horse' to make it pull a load. This is the first recorded use of the expression, which is still common for 'trying to revive interest in an apparently hopeless issue.' Bright's silver tongue is also responsible for 'England is the mother of Parliament,' and 'Force is not a remedy,' among other memorable quotations. He was wrong about the Reform Bill of 1867, however. Parliament 'carried' it, as the British say." From the "Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins" by Robert Hendrickson (Facts on File, New York, 1997.)

Richard BF 22:45, 11 Nov 2006 (UTC)

Origins
I added the origins of the phrase (17th C worker's slang for work already paid for). I was a little sceptical of this etymology when I saw it in wiktionary, but it's in the OED so there you go.

I'd like to see it moved to "Flogging", too. I might post it on RM. FiggyBee 19:23, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Check Google - "beating a dead horse" wins by a landslide. --DLand TALK 19:49, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
 * True, but 'flogging' was apparently the original usage. -- Ishel99 (talk) 02:09, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Amusing picture
Title says all. Danski14 00:54, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The picture was featured in the article for a short time, but it was (appropriately) removed. I think the talk page is a good place for it :)--DLand TALK 01:30, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Ouch! This image also suggests that "flogging a dead horse" is the more accurate phrase. -- llywrch 21:24, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Really? I'd say the opposite, if anything, because the picture is an example of "beating" being used.  But the key phrase there is "if anything."  Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting this is what you had in mind, Llywrch, but I think people on Wikipedia get too uptight about the differences between British and American English. -Unknownwarrior33 00:43, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

The picture is amusing but it has nothing to do with the saying. A man sitting on a dead horse is hardly flogging it. It looks more like he's resting on it. The user who reverted my removal of the image gave the argument "it's been there for a while" (which isn't a valid rational for keeping it) but as per the discussion above, it's obviously not the first time it's been removed, and I'm not the first one to find it inappropriate. ≈≈≈≈ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Avecmonami (talk • contribs) 07:07, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

 * Perhaps he's resting after beating/flogging the dead horse? Perhaps the parrot horse is resting too?

 * Anyway, I continue to believe the photo is relevant enough to include, but perhaps that's a minority opinion. Cheers, Pete Tillman (talk) 03:54, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

 * I find that the image dresses up the article. --evrik (talk) 20:32, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Rename
Surely this article should be 'Flogging a dead horse' with a redirect from 'Beating a dead horse'? The origins of the term are British, and its original form was (and still is, in large parts of the world), flogging a dead horse. The article lead suggests the later American idiom came first/takes precedence. Surely the history of the phrase in the naming of this article should take precedence over its Google count (which I thought wasn't an allowable factor in arguments due to systemic bias anyway?). It seems a nonsense to have the later version of the phrase as the article's name. Stronach (talk) 08:44, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree entirely. Bazonka (talk) 08:16, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Made this move per several uncontested advocacies of it here, since 'flog' was the original usage. -- Ishel99 (talk) 02:07, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Who Is Smythe?
The article mentions "Smythe" without any explanation of who he/she is/was. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.232.28.15 (talk) 14:57, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Usage
I'm an American and the way I hear this expression most often used is if someone continues to present arguements after the discussion has already been decided. Kitfoxxe (talk) 18:14, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

NOT ENOUGH ROOM TO SWING A CAT
book by Martin Robson - on this idiom he mentions the idiom may come from the Spanish (pg59-60) and in fact they had a horse figure that was hoisted and then knocked down. The entry is not written very clearly in the book. But its seems like a kind of piñata. Dates and better refs I don't have. But if so it woudl make a better reason for keeping the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.231.182.113 (talk) 12:17, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

The nautical origins
The horse winds article should be checked out, the roaring forties will take you there, it has a good explanation of a parallel? origin. It needs inclusion and linking. Penyulap  talk 13:23, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

disagree with 'dead horse' equals 'useless thing'
''This use of 'dead horse' to refer to pay that was issued before the work was done was an allusion to using one's money to buy a useless thing (metaphorically, "a dead horse"). Most men paid in advance apparently either wasted the money on drink or other such vices, or used it to pay outstanding debts.''

I believe the "dead horse" analogy isn't just for a generic useless thing, but rather for an extremely valuable possession (as horses were at that time - i'd imagine the sports cars equivalent) that has run out it's natural lifetime value (i.e. died of old age after extensive use). Sailors would tell the village priest they had "wasted the money on vices" as a matter of course, but any kind of man that planned for his retirement would probably start by choosing any career other than petty sailor. Going to the whorehouse to make some more memories to come back to would probably be a much sounder investment than donating for the new church or buying a cottage for the cheating wife and the mailman's kids. 'Working for the dead horse' would be working to pay for something you already had, before you can get around to working for something you'll have. Like paying the loan on that sports car that got you laid. ''-- 22:18, 17 May 2014? 79.168.110.81''

A better definition
Original definition:

''Flogging a dead horse (...) is an idiom that means to continue a particular endeavour is a waste of time as the outcome is already decided. ''

But:
 * 1) Continuation is no criterion. Think about something, that you can do only once.
 * 2) The word "decided" suggest somebody who decides. But the outcome does not have to be decided. Sometimes the laws of physics are enough.
 * 3) The current definition also refers to the positive outcome, which should be excluded.

The new definition:

Flogging a dead horse (...) is an idiom meaning that trying to do something impossible is a waste of time. Vikom (talk) 00:17, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

I think the definition that was on the page worked best. --evrik (talk) 16:24, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 8 February 2019

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. I understand that concerns were raised about data presented over the course of the discussion, but consensus is clearly against a move at this time. Dekimasu よ! 02:00, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Flogging a dead horse → Beating a dead horse – Recently, I discovered this article is titled as it is. I read the policies and guidance presented in WP:TITLEVAR, MOS:ENGVAR, and WP:RM. However in regards to former policy and guidelines, I feel this article does not meet MOS:TIES since it is an idiom used all over the English-speaking world. Furthermore, the proposed article name better meets WP:CRITERIA. Specifically, it better meets WP:NATURALNESS — Naturalness – The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles. Such a title usually conveys what the subject is actually called in English. Evidence:

 * 143 internal links to "Flogging a dead horse" compared the 170 internal links to "Beating a dead horse"
 * There are more internal links to the redirect than the main page (bearing in mind that these results skew heavily towards the main page).
 *
 * The terms "beat a dead horse" and "beating a dead horse" almost always outperformed "flogging a dead horse" (only once was "beating a dead horse" outperformed).
 * Please see the following table:
 * Conclusion: In countries that use the beat-variant utilize it to a much greater extent than countries that use the flog-variant (where in those countries it is more accepted or simply better known).

Thank you for your consideration. ― Matthew J. Long -Talk-☖  16:47, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

 * Support per WP:AXLROSE.  Lugnuts  Fire Walk with Me 17:16, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

 * Comment It depends how prolific it is in the US. It's a household phrase over here in Europe in Britain and Ireland that anyone might use, but if it is over there too, move. If it's like some intellectuals or politicians phrase over there leave it. Anyone might say that over here. ~ R.T.G 17:44, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
 * , it is very common here in the States. ― Matthew J. Long -Talk-☖  21:31, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Well that settles me to Support, but I was inclined to give merit to Paintspot (User:188.143.76.152 below Paintspot, apologies) about the consistency, though that might mean to expand it as much as to keep it the same. o/ ~ R.T.G 21:53, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
 * It would be good to expand it to include the other term. 188.143.76.152 (talk) 23:27, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I must defer to the "invalid data" below. I'll stand to my rationale if the US is much above 60 or 70%, but I thought it was an exam of actual use rather than search terms. I get 214k flogging and 547k beating on search. It doesn't seem to want to show me usage in literature the way it does for individual words, so I don't know. ~ R.T.G 17:55, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

 * Support per nom. (It's quite common in the United States as well, to answer the above.) Also, since "beating" is used in all the countries listed in the table, but "flogging" isn't used at all in some of them, that's pretty helpful evidence to support. Paintspot Infez (talk) 19:58, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Clarification., my apologies for not explaining this. That table is a list of Google results for the terms. All it tells us is that people in the UK, et al. are searching for those terms at about those rates. ― Matthew J. Long -Talk-☖  21:33, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The whole of the lead section, including three references, is about the expression "flog[ging] a dead horse". The article doesn't discuss the expression "beat[ing] a dead horse" at all. There are actually nine links to this from articles, but only two via . This is the WP:PRECISE title for this article. 188.143.76.152 (talk) 20:41, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose - I think it's fine the way ti is and see no real need to chnage it. --evrik (talk) 22:11, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose, as it looks to be a kind of a long-term stable name (although the page was created as 'beating a dead horse'), and the only other reason to change it would be to change the descriptor from European and rest of the world usage to North American usage. Since tie-goes-to-the-runner, and "Flogging" is already hunkered down in the title, the only way this looks like it can end is "no consensus", so I'm going to go with that. [edit: and per a few '000s discussions on the page above which provide pretty clear historic proof that the present name is correct.] Randy Kryn (talk) 23:23, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose. It's a British phrase in origin, where it is still overwhelmingly "flogging" (I can't actually recall ever having heard someone same "beating a dead horse" - it sort of jars as it's so unlike the original). As the original phrase is more widespread round the globe than just North America, there really is no need to change just because the Americans do it slightly differently. - SchroCat (talk) 09:53, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Support. It was originally at "beating" and that's where it should have stayed. Rreagan007 (talk) 05:20, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose – flogging came first, and has always been more common in BE, although it has been steadily losing ground since WWII to the point where it is now only about twice as common as beating. In AE, flogging was also more common until around 1970, but has lost ground and now beating is over twice as common. Due to the cultural influence, almost hegemony, of U.S. film and media, BE speakers have always understood AE expressions better than vice versa, which may account for the trends in the two English varieties.
 * If it can be attributed to a quotation which then became generalized later into other forms, then one could argue that the original version should take precedence. In an 1859 debate in Parliament regarding John Bright, Liberal MP from Birmingham, and Whig politician Francis Charteris, 10th Earl of Wemyss (known as "Lord Elcho"), the flogging expression is recorded and attributed, apparently to Elcho, in the context of a debate about whether people would rally around the Consitution, if challenged by Physical Force Chartists and Universal Suffragists. It appears in double quotes and is mentioned in such a way as to suggest the expression was unknown at the time. American versions are not recorded until decades later. Mathglot (talk) 08:53, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

 * Comment: the OP's evidence of 143–170 for internal links is not an argument in favor of the move, per WP:WINARS. We are, after all, the encyclopedia anyone can edit. Mathglot (talk) 10:06, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Support per nom – the stats are illuminating. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:32, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, they are, and as I said above, tie goes to the runner (the n-gram also proves initial term usage). Randy Kryn (talk) 21:58, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

 * Comment: Votes in this poll may be tainted by invalid tabular data in the original request. This Move request should be procedurally closed and restarted from scratch. Admin closure requested. See . Mathglot (talk) 23:24, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

 * Oppose. What the hell is beating a dead horse? In the UK we always say flogging. Per WP:ENGVAR that's what it should remain. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:34, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

 * Oppose per WP:RETAIN. This has been stable at this title since 2009, and absent a good reason to change it from one variety of English to another, we should avoid doing so here. — Amakuru (talk) 17:02, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

 * Oppose per WP:RETAIN and the fact that the text of the article is almost entirely about "flogging". The encyclopedic (vs. dictionary) notability of the idiom accrues from the original form.  —  AjaxSmack  23:36, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Discussion: invalid data
The poll results above in this move request may be tainted by invalid data being presented, although clearly in good faith, by the OP. In the meantime, in my opinion, this request should be procedurally closed, and a new one opened.

All of the statistics presented in the initial table above are invalid for the purpose of determining common name, and cannot be used for estimating the proportion of sources on each variety of the flogging vs. beating phrase. There are no links given in the table itself, but we can see that the external link given below it (with the bracketed "[1]") is the source of the data; this links to Google Trends data, not Google web search. The comment posted at 21:33, 8 Feb says: That table is a list of Google results for the terms; however, that is misleading; these numbers are not the results of a Google web search, as one might expect from that statement, rather, they are the results of a Google Trends data analysis, which are not helpful here.

Google Trends data show the results of the terms people use in their online searches, and have no connection to the proportion of reliable sources on a subject. User searches are not reliable sources, and don't provide useful information on how to decide an issue like this. To see why this is so, consider the results of these two Google Trends data analyses, to try and determine whether Elvis is alive or dead, and whether the moon landing was real or faked. It is of course, absurd; but that is the point: what people are searching for, has no relation to what sources say. When thousands of people search for "Elvis is alive", that doesn't mean it's true (or false), it doesn't mean there are many (or any) reliable sources that make that claim, and it doesn't even mean that the person searching believes that Elvis is alive. It only means that they are searching for that expression and nothing more. When Canadians all search for "beat a dead horse", what does that mean? Do they search for terms they already know? I usually look up expressions I'm not familiar with and want an explanation. Maybe it means, they all use "flog a dead horse", and they just wanted to see if anybody really says it the other way. The point is, we really just don't know why they searched for that term.

Given that the tabular data is invalid, one must assume that all !votes to this point are tainted. (Including my own.) I could provide the results of actual web, or books search, so that we could try to carry on voting in the poll based on accurate statistics, but I don't think it's worth it, because the closer would then have to somehow compare tainted votes with untainted ones. I think that's an impossible task, and the request should be closed now. But if not, when the time comes to evaluate the results of the poll above, the closer should consider the tainted data, and for that reason, I'm asking that the closer be an experienced admin. Mathglot (talk) 23:24, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
 * So many people searching for the Moon landings being fake? They're flogging a dead horse there. Thanks for digging deeper, nice research and analysis. Randy Kryn (talk) 00:19, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

title: Talk:Flogging a dead horse/Archive 1


text:
Ontario Highway 404

King's Highway 404 (pronounced "four-oh-four"), also known as Highway 404 and colloquially as the 404, is a 400-series highway in the Canadian province of Ontario. A continuation of the municipal Don Valley Parkway (DVP) north of Highway 401, it connects Toronto with East Gwillimbury. The 50.1 km controlled-access freeway also connects with Highway 407 in Markham, which formed the northeastern ring road of the Greater Toronto Area until the opening of Highway 412 in 2016. Highway 404 provides access to the eastern edge of Richmond Hill, Aurora and Newmarket and the western edge of Whitchurch-Stouffville, in addition to the southern edge of Keswick.

Metro Toronto (Metro) completed the Don Valley Parkway (DVP) to Sheppard Avenue in 1966. Metro initially planned extension of the DVP to Steeles Avenue, northward the province would continue the route which was inaugurated as Highway 404. However, the province ending up decided that their new highway would also run south of Steeles, incorporating the existing segment of the Metro-built DVP between Sheppard and Highway 401. The first section south of Steeles opened in 1977, over what was formerly Woodbine Avenue. Over the next twelve years, the Ministry of Transportation of Ontario (MTO) undertook a continuous construction program to extend the highway to Davis Drive in Newmarket. This was completed on October 24, 1989. The route has undergone a periodic series of smaller extensions and widening in the years since, now travelling a further 15.5 km north to Woodbine Avenue near Ravenshoe Road in the town of East Gwillimbury. Future proposals may one day result in an extension to southeast of Beaverton.

Highway 404 is one of several freeways in the Greater Toronto Area (GTA) with High-Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) lanes; the southbound lane was one of the initial projects in the province and opened on December 13, 2005. The northbound lane opened on July 23, 2007.

Route description
Running parallel to Highway 400 approximately 15 km to the east, Highway 404 extends 50.1 km on a north–south orientation between Highway 401 and Woodbine Avenue. There are 16 interchanges along its length, mostly of the Partial cloverleaf A4 configuration. Exit numbers on the freeway start at 17, suggesting that the length of the Don Valley Parkway was considered in distance calculations; until 2017, there were no exit numbers posted on the DVP.

A continuation of the municipal-controlled DVP, the Ministry of Transportation of Ontario (MTO) jurisdiction over the freeway begins as the opposing directions of travel diverge south of the Highway 401 interchange. Northbound, two lanes from the DVP are joined by a third from the eastbound collectors of Highway 401. These narrow to two lanes before merging with a single lane from westbound Highway 401 immediately south of Sheppard Avenue. An additional two lanes from eastbound Highway 401 converge and form a separate carriageway with no access to Sheppard. Southbound, the freeway is divided into two carriageways, both of which provide access to the DVP. The outer carriageway also provides access from Sheppard and to both directions of Highway 401, including the westbound express lanes, while the inner carriageway is intended for DVP-bound traffic. The HOV lane eventually merges with DVP-bound traffic, and also has an off-ramp via a tunnel to the Highway 401 westbound collector lanes. To the east of Highway 404 is the Consumers Road office park. To the west and north of Sheppard Avenue is Fairview Mall, which has its own connection with the southbound lanes attached to the Sheppard interchange.

The highway continues directly north along the old Woodbine Avenue right-of-way to just south of Steeles Avenue. This section of the freeway is five lanes per direction (four general purpose lanes, one HOV lane near the central median), plus an auxiliary lane that emerges from an on-ramp of one interchange and then diverges at an off-ramp of the next interchange. Southbound, the HOV lane continues to the interchange at Highway 401. From just north of the Van Horne Avenue overpass, the leftmost northbound lane becomes an HOV lane. Alongside Highway 404 to the east is an industrial warehouse and commercial office area, while on the west is a suburban subdivision of North York.

At the interchange with Steeles Avenue which also includes a dedicated on-ramp from Woodbine Avenue (York Regional Road 8), the freeway enters the Regional Municipality of York where it diverges to the west before continuing north, running parallel to Woodbine Avenue. To the east are industrial units, while on the west are residential suburbs. This land-use persists north to the Highway 407 ETR junction, a multi-level combination interchange with two flyovers. At this point the freeway narrows and the central concrete barrier ends; a grass median taking its place between the opposing lanes. Immediately north of Highway 407, the freeway interchanges with Highway 7, and due to the close spacing of these two interchanges, the northbound off-ramp to Highway 7 is braided with the on-ramp from Highway 407 (and vice versa with the southbound ramps) to avoid weaving. As the freeway crosses Highway 7, the HOV lanes transition to standard through lanes, although as of 2020 construction is underway to extend the HOV lanes using the grass median. The freeway passes west of Buttonville Municipal Airport (decommissioned as of November 2023) and then interchanges with 16th Avenue, and the close proximity to the airport's runways necessitates that this freeway segment is illuminated by low poles instead of the high mast lighting on the rest of the freeway.

The land-use density continues to drop, with the appearance of some open spaces and farms interspersed with industrial and commercial buildings. By 19th Avenue, just north of the Honda Canada headquarters in Markham, the land-use is agricultural on both sides of Highway 404. Highway 404 continues north, forming the eastern boundary of the municipalities of Richmond Hill, Aurora and Newmarket and the western boundary of Whitchurch-Stouffville. North of Wellington Street, the highway reduces in width to four lanes, which is its configuration north through East Gwillimbury. The route continues, passing east of the community of Queensville, where just a bit north Highway 404 will meet the future Bradford Bypass, as it eventually curves northeast and terminates at an at-grade intersection with Woodbine Avenue immediately south of Ravenshoe Road (York Regional Road 32).

The speed limit is 100 kph on most of its length, with the exception of the 16 km stretch between Newmarket and the north end of the highway, where the speed limit is 110 kph since it was raised on April 22, 2022.

Initial construction
A freeway east of Highway 11 was planned as early as 1954, when the province extended Highway 48 south from Port Bolster. A large cloverleaf interchange was constructed with the Toronto Bypass, and plans formulated for a dual highway around the east side of Lake Simcoe, connecting with Highway11 near Orillia or Gravenhurst. This route was dropped when Metropolitan Toronto began planning for the northern extension of the DVP in 1957, as subdivisions encroached upon Woodbine Avenue north of Highway401. The six-lane expressway was to follow the alignment of Woodbine from its southern terminus at Lawrence Avenue to north of Steeles Avenue, where the Department of Highways (DHO) would continue the road as a "new King's Highway".

In 1959, the DHO announced that they would construct and maintain the new route once the DVP was completed to Highway401 and designate it Highway404. The proposed route of the freeway was presented at a special delegation on December13, 1960 by Harold Barry, a representative of the department. During this time Metro opened another section of the DVP from Lawrence Avenue to Highway 401 on November 17, 1966, followed by the section north of Highway 401 to Sheppard Avenue on March 1, 1967. As completed at that time, after passing Sheppard Avenue the parkway narrowed to the two-lane Woodbine Avenue.

Design work on Highway404 started in 1973, and construction began following the awarding of a C$6.9million contract in March 1976. This contract included construction of the Finch Avenue interchange, overpasses at McNicoll and Van Horne Avenues and 4.5 km of six-lane freeway between Sheppard and Steeles Avenues. Shortly thereafter, on April20, Ernest Avenue and Van Horne Avenue were closed to traffic at Woodbine. The existing Metro-built segment of the DVP between Sheppard and Highway401 was designated as part of the new provincial freeway.

The first section of Highway404 between Highway401 and Steeles Avenue opened in late 1977, including the flyover ramp from southbound Woodbine Avenue. The freeway was separated by a grass median with a steel box beam acting as a barrier between the lanes. Construction north of Toronto proceeded quickly, with the contract for the section from Steeles to Highway7 being awarded in 1976 and the section opening on November10, 1978. The next extension, to Stouffville Road (then known as the Gormley Side Road), was opened ceremoniously on December9, 1980 by minister James Snow; the segment north of Highway7 was four lanes wide.

The section of Highway404 north of Stouffville Road was the subject of considerable controversy when work began to clear the route on May15, 1981 before the completion of an environmental impact assessment. The Ministry of Transportation and Communications was charged with violating the newly enacted Environmental Assessment Act, which it contested came into effect after construction of the extension had begun. Minister James Snow was charged with violating the act, and called upon to resign. The Minister did not resign, but paid a C$3,500 fine. Despite the issues surrounding it, the extension between Stouffville Road and Bloomington Road was opened ceremoniously on the morning of August10, 1982.

As originally built by Metro, the Sheppard Avenue interchange with the parkway was originally a Parclo AB2, plus Fairview Mall Drive at the time ran only east-west directly north of the shopping centre and also had its own on/off-ramps from the southbound lanes of Highway 404. In the 1980s the province removed the separate sets of Fairview Mall Drive and Sheppard Avenue ramps in favour of an on/off-ramp that fed directly to the shopping centre and an extension of Fairview Mall Drive whose eastbound lanes run south to meet with Sheppard Avenue.

Construction on the segment north of Bloomington to Aurora Sideroad was already in progress by this point. It was opened to traffic in late September 1985. 16th Avenue, which had been widened from two to four lanes during the mid-1980s, received ramps connecting to the freeway south of that existing underpass. Construction on the 6.5 km section from Wellington Street to Davis Drive began in early 1986, and the section opened to traffic on October24, 1989 at 8:30am. This final segment cost $22.1million, ending the continuous construction program undertaken since 1973 at a cost of $83.3million.

1997-2007 expansion
Studies and environmental assessments into various extensions began almost immediately after the completion of the route to Newmarket in 1989; it would take over a decade for any northward progression to take place. The completion of the route to Davis Drive was met with scorn as traffic in Newmarket rapidly increased as the bedroom community grew with the new highway access. Municipal officials warned prior to the opening of the route that major traffic delays would be faced along Davis Drive. Then-mayor Ray Twinney began an immediate push to widen Green Lane – at that time an unpaved rural route – into a bypass of the town. Traffic delays were also compounded at the southern end of Toronto, where drivers whom had previously made use of Yonge Street, Bayview Avenue or Leslie Street would shift to make use of the new freeway.

By 1992, York Region was moving forward with plans to expand Green Lane into a four lane road, while the province was urged to consider extending Highway 404 north to it, and eventually around the east side of Lake Simcoe. The province studied this and other options over the following years, before a formal announcement was made by Minister of Transportation Tony Clement on June 22, 1998, along with York Region chairman Bill Fisch. The plan called for an extension of Highway 404 north to Green Lane, and widening of Highway 9, the western extension of Davis Drive (now part of it after being downloaded and redesignated as York Regional Road 31 east of Highway 400) outside town, to five lanes between Highway 400 and Bathurst Street. At the time over 20,000 vehicles used Davis Drive on an average day.

In the interim period, work went into expanding the six lane freeway through Toronto and Markham. A combination interchange was built with the new Highway 407 ETR which opened in June 1997, which as a prerequisite required the realignment of some ramps from the nearby Highway 7 interchange. In early 1998, the MTO announced plans for two contracts to widen Highway 404 south of Highway 7. The first contract converted the grass median into an additional lane in each direction with a central concrete barrier between them, with the inner lanes to eventually be converted into HOV lanes. High-mast lighting was installed in the median barrier, replacing the unique luminaires that were mounted outside of the right shoulder of each carriageway. With the shift in road illumination completed as a prerequisite, the second contract would result in an additional lane in each direction on the outside the existing freeway south of Highway 407, making it ten lanes wide, with expansion of the southbound and northbound lanes completed in 2005 and 2007, respectively.

In conjunction with the widening to add HOV lanes, improvements were made to the bottlenecked interchange with Highway 401. This involved the construction of a two-lane on-ramp receiving traffic from the eastbound Highway 401 express and collectors that would converge with Highway 404 northbound without access to Sheppard Avenue, while the existing single lane on-ramp for that same movement was retained for Highway 401 collector traffic to exit at Sheppard Avenue. In early 2004, construction began on a new ramp from the Highway 404 southbound HOV lane to the Highway 401 westbound collectors, with the ramp consisting of a curved tunnel beneath the Highway 404's southbound general traffic lanes. To accommodate the HOV ramp, the ramp for general traffic from Highway 404 southbound to the Highway 401 westbound collectors was shifted further west with its entry just under the Don Mills Road overpass while also realigned to permit a higher speed. On December 13, 2005, the southbound HOV lane was opened to traffic. This was one of the three original HOV lanes in Ontario; the other two HOV lanes were on Highway 403 in Mississauga. Work on the northbound HOV lane began shortly thereafter, opening at 8:30 am on Monday, July 23, 2007.

In 1999, Highway 404 was widened to six lanes between Highway 7 and Major Mackenzie Drive, using the right-of-way afforded by the grass median. Ramps were added to connect Regional Road 73 (16th Avenue) with the segment of Highway 404 north of that junction, making it a full interchange. On June 19, 2003, Transportation Minister and Oak Ridges MPP Frank Klees opened the new ramps, with Thornhill MPP Tina Molinari also in attendance, with traffic permitted onto the ramp following the ceremony. The MTO formally announced plans to alleviate traffic in Newmarket on August 28, 2000: a three contract project to widen and extend Highway 404. The first contract added an additional lane in each direction in the grass median from Major Mackenzie Drive to Bloomington Road. A second contract then extended those two lanes north to Aurora Sideroad. These two projects both began in the summer of 2001 and were completed in December. The third contract (see below) was an extension from Davis Drive to Green Lane.

Extensions to Keswick
The MTO formally announced plans to alleviate traffic in Newmarket on August 28, 2000: a three contract project to widen and extend Highway 404. The first contract added an additional lane in each direction in the grass median from Major Mackenzie Drive to Bloomington Road. A second contract then extended those two lanes north to Aurora Sideroad. These two projects both began in the summer of 2001 and were completed in December. The third contract called for a four lane extension from Davis Drive to Green Lane and the reconstruction of Green Lane into a four-laned arterial road between Leslie Street and Woodbine Avenue. This contract began shortly after the announcement in September 2000. The extension was opened to traffic on February 8, 2002, at a ceremony attended by York North MPP Julia Munro and York Region chairman Bill Fisch.

On May 16, 2006, the MTO announced plans to extend Highway 404 by 15 km from Green Lane to Ravenshoe Road at the south end of Keswick. The first contracts were awarded later that year for the construction of the northbound bridge over Green Lane, followed by two structures over Mount Albert Road, west of Woodbine Avenue, begun in late 2008 and completed in 2009. By April 2011, the extension had been cleared and graded. Completion was originally scheduled for December 15, 2012, with landscaping work to continue the following spring. However, due to soil conditions and utility relocation issues, the project was delayed by nearly two years. The C$99 million extension opened on September 17, 2014.

2016-2024 expansion
On December 9, 2016, the MTO announced that the segment between Highway 407 and Stouffville Road would be widened from six to eight lanes with the additional inner lanes to be used as HOV lanes. Much of the work involved paving over the remainder of the grass median and erecting a concrete barrier. A complex part of this project involved the staged replacement of the existing 16th Avenue and Rouge River bridges that have been in service when the freeway opened; the old 16th Avenue underpasses had been widened twice (in 1988 for new ramps, and in 2002 for the freeway expansion) but still only permitted four lanes of an increasingly congested 16th to pass through, while the old Rouge River bridges were originally designed with two freeway lanes each and for the 2002 expansion they were restriped for three lanes by removing the shoulders. A carpool lot was added at Major Mackenzie Drive at the start of the project. Construction north of Major Mackenzie Drive started in 2017 and was completed in 2021, while construction south of Major Mackenzie started in 2019 and is scheduled to be completed in June 2024.

Future
Long term proposals by the province call for Highway 404 to be extended to Highway 12, between Sunderland and Beaverton. This extension would follow a new alignment to Port Bolster, east of which the freeway would incorporate the existing two lanes of Highway 48. It has drawn criticism from various environmental groups who claim it will only serve to accelerate urban sprawl north of Toronto.

title: Ontario Highway 404


text:
Denver Dalley

Denver Collin Dalley is an American singer-songwriter based in Omaha, Nebraska. He is best known for his collaboration with Bright Eyes frontman Conor Oberst in Desaparecidos, and has been involved in various other musical projects, including Statistics, Intramural, and PRESSERS. Denver got married in 2019 and is an expert juggler.

Desaparecidos
Dalley collaborated with childhood friend Conor Oberst as main songwriter of the politically charged indie rock band Desaparecidos. The band released Read Music/Speak Spanish on Omaha-based Saddle Creek Records before going on hiatus in 2003. They reunited in 2010, performing at the Concert for Equality in Omaha on July 31, and again on July 31, 2012 at Omaha's Maha Music Festival.

Statistics
In 2003, following the temporary caesura of Desaparecidos, Dalley formed Statistics, an electronic-tinged solo project, and signed onto the Jade Tree Records label. After releasing a self-titled extended play in 2003 and two studio albums titled Leave Your Name and Often Lie in 2004 and 2005, respectively, Dalley chose to focus on other projects, effectively putting Statistics on hiatus. However, in 2013, eight years after Often Lie, Dalley released a new studio album titled Peninsula on Afternoon Records, featuring a collaboration with Minnesota-based singer-songwriter Sean Tillman (a.k.a. Har Mar Superstar). Dalley hopes to create visuals in the form of music videos for songs in Peninsula, something that he has never done in his prior musical ventures.

Other work
Dalley formed Intramural and released This is a Landslide on October 23, 2008, via Slowdance Records. He has also recorded music with Leta Lucy from The Twilight Singers as part of a project called Two of Cups, which is currently unsigned.

Dalley performs and collaborates frequently with Sean Tillman (a.k.a. Har Mar Superstar) and has appeared on Late Night with Jimmy Fallon and Lopez Tonight, playing both guitar and bass guitar in Tillman's multiple projects. Dalley also toured as an instrumentalist with The Pink Spiders in the fall of 2008 and The Watson Twins in early 2009.

Dalley has licensed his music to such shows as Ugly Betty and ER, written music for several national and international commercials, and scored a feature-length documentary called America's Marine Aviators.

Studio albums

 * Read Music/Speak Spanish (2002 · Saddle Creek Records)
 * Payola (2015 – Epitaph Records)

Singles

 * What's New For Fall (2001 · Wichita Recordings)
 * The Happiest Place on Earth (2001 · Saddle Creek Records)

As statistics

 * Statistics EP (2003 · Jade Tree Records)
 * Leave Your Name (2004 · Jade Tree Records)
 * Often Lie (2005 · Jade Tree Records)
 * Peninsula (2013 · Afternoon Records)

As Intramural

 * This Is a Landslide (2007 · Slowdance Records)

title: Denver Dalley