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Talk:Regression testing

Older discussions
Does anyone know how to document regression testing or any other kind of testion for that matter?Stanko 19:10, 27 September 2006 (UTC)Stanko

I removed this line, as it clearly belongs in talk and not in the article itself: ''Remaining questions - who invented the term? Who was the first to use it systematically?''

And I'm not sure about this quote (I left it in, but added quotations marks to make clear that it's a quote.)

"As a consequence of the introduction of new bugs, program maintenance requires far more system testing per statement written than any other programming. Theoretically, after each fix one must run the entire batch of test cases previously run against the system, to ensure that it has not been damaged in an obscure way. In practice, such regression testing must indeed approximate this theoretical idea, and it is very costly." -- Fred Brooks, Mythical Man Month (p 122)

-starwed

Relation with extreme programming
The last paragraph states that "regression testing is an integral part of the extreme programming software development methodology". This is IMO abusive since it is part of many, if not all, of those methodologies. Furthermore, the article about extreme programming does not mention regression testing, which tends to prove my point. Regression testing is merely a software engineering trick that many of us use (whereas all should). - 81.56.146.158 15:58, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I concur. Extreme or Agile programming has a different view with regards to testing in that it preaches to write tests before implementing features, something which is less common and seldom explicitly preached in other development methods. In other methodologies it's not necessarily discouraged or not practiced; it's just not explict as one of the most import principles. Wouter Lievens 08:06, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I think that eXtreme Programming preaches to write tests before implementing features for a few reasons. One of those reasons is so that you have a full suite of unit tests to run as a regression test at any time. And I think that the reason for that is because in extreme situations, there can be no tolerance for slippage, or regression. Every update to the code must be a step forward.

 * Like 81.56.146.158 mentioned, regression testing is a trick that many of us use and most of us should. But I think that eXtreme Programming demands it. Maybe it has more to do with Test Driven Development. And maybe someone should update the eXtreme Programming article to mention regression testing. DRogers 12:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Why does this apply only to software?
I hoped to see a definition of regression testing that applied to systems in general, not just software. Is there some reason this definition shouldn't be applied to entire systems, subsystems, and integrated hardware/software units? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.45.72.26 (talk • contribs).

 * Well 192.45.72.26, the best answer I can give is that software people started this article and software people maintain it. Regression testing as applied to software is all I know. If you think that it applies to something else, I encourage you to start an article. DRogers 12:19, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Regression testing is one of the key elements when designing integrated circuits, ASICs and FPGA based designs. In this field there are quite a lot of specialiced tools on the marked to help designers with it. On this top 10 asic design and verfication list, regression testing is on the second place. the problem is a bit, that this article belongs to the software testing portal (which is ok) and that there is no article about asic design methods and verification where it would also belong to. --84.20.36.138 (talk) 07:13, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

 * It belongs to Wikipedia. If you want to add a section on other areas, feel free to. You could also create a different article. It just sounds like there are different methods involved though and the concept remains the same. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 13:52, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Important questions
The article does not answer 2 important questions:

 * 1) What does the word "regression" in this context mean?
 * 2) And why are the tests called "regression tests"?

I recommend you to read the much better article "Regression Testing" at http://www.wrox.com/WileyCDA/Section/id-291252.html by Adam Kolawa

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.72.132.1 (talk • contribs) 09:58, 28 March 2007 (UTC1)

 * regression as opposed to progression - a step back not forward.
 * From Latin 'gressus' - Perfect active participle of gradior (“‘step, go, walk’”).
 * --87.194.174.252 (talk) 11:00, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

(NJgeezer (talk) 15:51, 16 November 2010 (UTC)) The Wiley article has this definition: "Regression testing identifies when code modifications cause previously-working functionality to regress, or fail..." The important point here is that the existing def in this wiki article does not explain the added nuance of "regression", just "testing". The function of regression testing is not to test the change itself (commonly known as unit testing), but to ensure through broader testing that the change has not caused a different bug. This will almost always involve programs or modules outside the scope of the actual code changes. e.g. a change to a DB extract may have resolved a missing country's records, but those "new" records may contain data that causes a completely separate, downstream system to crash since their code does not allow for that new country's currency code. So we are testing not that the change works, but that it has not caused any application regression (loss of functionality) i.e. a failure of previously working, unchanged code.

Types of regression
61.95.203.186, I removed your edits. First, I don't think that those are types of regression. Maybe they would belong under the risk mitigation section. And in that case, I think "Complete test suite repetition" and "Partial test repetition based on traceability and analysis of technical and business risks" cover your points. Does anyone disagree? DRogers 12:48, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Added citations and a testing resource
Since this topic is lacking cited content, I added some from Albert Savoia and Kent Beck. Kent Beck is the father of XP and JUnit (although I deliberately avoided making the new content Java-specific and stuck with what would transcend multiple languages). Alberto Savoia has written extensively on unit testing, regression testing, and developer testing.

In order to avoid tying content to any language, I dropped "JUnit Factory" down to the bottom as an external link instead of making it a reference.

Cheers. MickeyWiki (talk) 16:25, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

first paragraph a bit mistakable?
I dont know what regression testing is - but as i understand the explanation here, it is a test applied just after changes to software have been made. These changes may be "normal" changes or bugfixes. If this definition is correct, i find the the second sentence "The intend of regression testing is to assure that a bug fix has been successfully corrected.." mistakable; this sounds to me like "it is a test, that is applied after trying to fix a bugfix". So there was a mistake _fixing a bug_? I think this is too special..

In the case that my interpretation is correct, i suggest following two sentences for the beginning:

Regression testing is any type of software testing that seeks to uncover software errors after changes to the program (e.g. bugfixes) have been made, by partially retesting the program. The intent of regression testing is to assure that a bugfix itself is correct, or more general, that a change did not introduce new bugs.

and maybe the next sentence should be shorted as to not become repetitive.

len48 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.119.140.35 (talk) 19:07, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

 * I second the motion but don't feel comfortable making the change myself. If you need more evidence: "Regression testing is performed after making a functional improvement or repair to the program." [The Art of Software Testing, by G. Myers]
 * 75.87.186.225 (talk) 22:15, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

 * I updated it taking into account what has been noted here. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 23:10, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Is this claim too bold?
''In the corporate world, regression testing has traditionally been performed by a software quality assurance team after the development team has completed work. However, defects found at this stage are the most costly to fix.''

This latter statement in the background section seems to be a bit odd and does not have any citation or reference. I would have thought defects found after QA would be even more expensive, but does agree that QA tests are more costly then dev team tests. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.45.199.134 (talk) 10:20, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

 * Both are correct. There have been several studies that show increasing cost for bug fixes at each stage of development. It is 100 time more expensive to fix the bug if found by the client than if found at the time of creating requirements. However, the phrase above just needs a little tweak: "defects found at this stage are the more costly to fix than if found earlier." --Walter Görlitz (talk) 13:50, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Regression Testing vs Non-regression testing
Should this article be merged with Non-regression testing? What is the difference between these two terms (I do not see any). Is one of the terms more correct than the other (I was always saying Regression Testing, but recently met people that always say Non-regression Testing)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Loomchild (talk • contribs) 14:19, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * No. The concepts are different, and "NRT" is unsupported in the literature. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:32, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for explanation and for raising this topic on NRT Talk page. --Loomchild (talk) 14:27, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

I propose to remove the link and comparison to the non-regression testing page. I think the non-regression testing article is quite problematical with its lack of relevant citations and references (I couldn't find one that was relevant in the article.) I didn't find any published references and literature on non-regression testing that described it in any other way than testing, so I think the article needs a lot of work to be useful.Yorkyabroad (talk) 14:46, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Please remove it. Should we request that the article be deleted? Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:33, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think article deletion is appropriate - it is potentially confusing and misleading. I guess the policy/guideline it breaches would be WP:OR as it seems to lack reliable published support. Yorkyabroad (talk) 10:27, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
 * We have a few choices.
 * We can request a WP:PROD. If no one contests it, the article will be deleted without a trace. Anyone can request it be undeleted, and an admin can do that.
 * We can request an WP:AFD. We discuss it and if there is a good, policy-based reason for deletion, it will be deleted. Again, it can be undeleted upon request, but that's more difficult. On the other hand, if a policy-based argument is made for keeping it (or redirecting its content after merging it), it could be closed as no consensus.
 * We (and by we I mean someone other than me) can salvage what's salvageable, and we redirect the topic here.
 * My preference is 3., and if we do that, it would be appropriate to have one sentence explaining that the term has been used, but it's not supported in the literature, or something to that effect. In short, non-regression testing is all testing that isn't regression testing. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:41, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm Ok with #3 - I guess that means stripping out piece-by-piece from the article - to avoid some sort of bulk-edit-undo ping-pong. I can make a start. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yorkyabroad (talk • contribs) 12:15, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I think we have a winner now. It came to after I saw your recent edits to the article. All that was left was the referenced testing of engine control units, and it hit me: this is an article about a term used in that field. Please check what I have done to see if that makes sense. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:46, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, it now looks much better. I was trying to find the content of the remaining first reference to see if NRT was used there, but didn't get to the source. I'm happy to leave it as it is now. Thanks! Yorkyabroad (talk) 16:43, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I replaced that page with a redirect to this article after finding nine books using "non-regression testing" in this meaning (6 with preview available and 3 with a sufficient snippet shown) and no book with the purported meaning. I also know customers (e.g. Siemens) requiring "non-regression testing" in this meaning. Is that sufficiently frequent to mention the term on this page as a synonyme, e.g. "Regression testing (rarely non-regression testing) ..."? --Rainald62 (talk) 07:15, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The redirect now removes the referenced description for "non-regression testing" in engine management systems. If literature references have been found for "non-regression testing" in a software testing context it would seem that there are a couple of possible actions:
 * Insert a section on the regression testing page with a description on its equivalence to "non-regression testing" in referenced literature, with references of course,
 * Insert a section on the non-regression testing page with a description (and references) of the software testing context Yorkyabroad (talk) 14:12, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 * , - any comments on the reversion of the redirect pending inclusion of a literature-referenced comment as per #1 or #2? Yorkyabroad (talk) 14:38, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 * It looks good to me. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:11, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 * is what I suggested above. Done. Not because the term is frequently used, but to counter the harm to the outside world caused by the hoax (purported other meaning of "non-regression testing").
 * would be a no-go (more than one article for synonyms). It's not even another context since regression testing is very common for embedded software. I added to this intro hardware changes as triggers for (non-)regression testing, with a reference from avionics (which happens to be close to my professional field). In the main text, that point could be detailed using the case of "non-regression testing in engine management systems" as example (I estimate that just one sentence remains after removal of what is already here or covered by a link to HIL testing). --Rainald62 (talk) 17:35, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

edits by anon Woodbridge, Connecticut
These edits are not correct. You want to find errors, not defects. The errors are created by developers and they are not defects until someone actually triggers them. Also, defect is a euphemism for a software bug which is described as "A software bug is the common term used to describe an error, flaw, mistake, failure, or fault in a computer program or system that produces an incorrect or unexpected result, or causes it to behave in unintended ways." This is why we should not be using defect. As for "or other software properties", what sort of weasel words are those? Functionality is all that is important in regression testing. There are no other relevant "software properties" (whatever that means). --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:59, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

I have no hope of convincing Walter but here are some definitions that should illuminate the two issues. Emphasis added.

error – “a human ACTION that produces an incorrect result, such as software containing a fault" (ISO 24765:2010, Systems & Software Engineering Vocabulary)

defect – “a problem which, IF NOT CORRECTED, could CAUSE an application to either fail or to produce incorrect results” (Id.)

regression testing – “testing required to determine that a change to a system component has not adversely affected functionality, RELIABILITY OR PERFORMANCE, and has not introduced additional defects” (Id.  Also: ISO 90003:2004, Software Engineering Guidelines for the Application of ISO 9001:2000 to Computer Software)

The other option is to argue with international standards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.183.41.121 (talk) 02:44, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

 * It's not about convincing me, it's about not being vague and not using terms in incorrect ways. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:09, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I gave my sources of authority. What are yours? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.183.41.121 (talk) 03:30, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

 * A library of a dozen books, fifteen years of Better Software Magazine and twenty years in the industry. Many of the testing articles on Wikipedia were either started or heavily edited early on by me.
 * The fact that you have sources don't mean that your additions are any more clear than what was there. Your addition of "or other software properties" is vague and your sources (which are not listed in the article per WP:V and WP:RS) don't help make it less vague. The fact that your ISO terminology differs from some of the rest of the industry doesn't mean that it's right, its one opinion. Check the software bug article to compare with consensus. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:35, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

ISO standards come into existence through world-wide consensus among experts in the subject domain. May I ask one more time for the precise sources for your def’ns of error, defect and regression testing, with quotation of these definitions, so everybody can compare authority and actual words. 69.183.41.121 (talk) 04:02, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

 * Check the software bug article. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:16, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

That's what I did and that's why I made the changes - just in the first sentence, for a start, the article needs it. If the present version is representative, nobody should be surprised by the sorry outcomes of much of the software engineering industry. Cheers, 69.183.41.121 (talk) 04:47, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

 * The only sorry thing is your addition of ambiguous statements. Please expand the "or other software properties" phrase or remove it. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:56, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Expanded phrase, done. Thanks. 69.183.41.121 (talk) 05:05, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Now that I have time to read the whole I understand. You're confusing functionality and functional testing, which is why you're comparing it to non-functional requirements. Functionality is not the same. Fixing. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:13, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

No, you don't understand the whole - but that's ok. Your edit sounds as if it comes from a German or Dutch speaker. No verbs at the end of a sentence. Try again. 69.183.41.121 (talk) 07:45, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

 * Fixed the incorrect change to the relative clause. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:15, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Good to see “error” removed and “non-functional” introduced. The non-functional aspects are the “number one risk” in software engineering. (CrossTalk, April2007, p.12) Being such a risk the non-functionals need full attention by regression testing. 69.183.41.121 (talk) 15:55, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
 * But regression testing doesn't usually include non-functional testing despite it being the number one risk. We're not creating policy but should be reflecting actual use. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:57, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

You have to start moving to different circles. 69.183.41.121 (talk) 16:12, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Vague definition
A few comments on the heading of this article, if I may:

 * "Regression testing is a type of software testing that seeks to uncover new software bugs, or regressions, in existing functional and non-functional areas of a system after changes such as enhancements, patches or configuration changes, have been made to them."

Here, "regressions" are equated with "new software bugs". 'Regressing', or 'taking a step back', clearly points to the past, whereas 'new' does not. Regression testing seeks to verify that a system has not regressed to a prior, less functional or less operational state after the introduction of changes.

 * "The purpose of regression testing is to ensure that changes such as those mentioned above have not introduced new faults."

Regression tests are pre-existing tests (made during earlier development) that either test functionality or bug fixes, and as such can only test for known conditions, not new ones. The kinds of tests suggested here regarding enhancements etc. might be called progression tests.

To illustrate: in the latter case (testing bug fixes), when a bug is found during use of a system, a test case is written that reproduces the occurrence of the bug, testing for the expected outcome. When the bug is fixed, the test will pass. These fixes and tests are committed to the system's source repository to ensure the bug does not re-appear unnoticed. While fixing such a bug, the test is usually classified as a unit test or functional test, depending on the scope. In future software revisions, re-running those earlier tests is what constitutes regression testing.

 * "One of the main reasons for regression testing is to determine whether a change in one part of the software affects other parts of the software."

This is, IMHO, besides the point; such determinations are the purpose of Integration testing.

 * "Common methods of regression testing include rerunning previously completed tests and checking whether program behavior has changed and whether previously fixed faults have re-emerged."

This is more to the point; however, regression testing only consists of rerunning previous tests. Any new tests added will not be regression tests until they are re-run in the future; while they are new, they are unit/functional/integration/what-have-you tests. Also, "checking whether program behavior has changed" is too vague of a purpose; perhaps "verifying program behaviour has not changed" is more precise.

 * "Regression testing can be performed to test a system efficiently by systematically selecting the appropriate minimum set of tests needed to adequately cover a particular change."

I would expect the heading to present a clear, concise definition and not go into details about the possibility of optimizing for efficiency. Further, it suggests that one of the purposes of regression testing is to be able to only select those tests that test the impact of a change, which it is not. Typically, regression tests are "blind": they test system functionality to ensure a change does not have unintended side-effects, which goes counter to being able to adequately determine all the effects of any change.

 * "Contrast with non-regression testing (usually validation-test for a new issue), which aims to verify whether, after introducing or updating a given software application, the change has had the intended effect."

Now this is good; and it is easily seen that when future changes are made, re-running such a test is considered a regression test as it will assert that the previously added functionality is still in effect.

Kenneyw (talk) 13:17, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Regression means to revert to a former or less developed state. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/regress. Regression testing is when you ensure that the bug you fixed yesterday isn't reintroduced today. Any new bugs might be discovered in functional testing, integration testing, or even in unit testing. The idea that old and new bugs are found in regression testing would imply that the only testing there is, or needs to be, is regression testing since all bugs, old and new, are found there. If you go through the functional testing and it breaks - you have a bug. But the expectation is that you shouldn't have yesterday's bugs and since you (should) have already created a test for yesterday's bug when you fixed it, you run your regression test, or suite of tests related to bugs you fixed, to ensure that no regression exists before moving on. You may run your regression tests and your functional tests in the same click of the mouse or you may separate them, but the purposes are distinct. New bugs are not regression. They cannot be, by the definition of regression. - Dale — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.32.32.166 (talk) 16:11, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Regression Testing
Hey, I had edited the content of regression testing in Wikipedia page and was left with your comment

"Revert as WP:OR the content is focused on web testing and was almost entirely unreferenced. The writing style was inappropriate with a lot of bullet lists. Refs do not go into headings"

1) I had the same feeling that there were a lot of bullet points and am working on correcting them.

2) I had posted a few references from published journal papers. Are journal papers not a good source for content?

3) And about the web testing, some of the tools were mentioned and not all. NarenThanikesh (talk) 15:43, 14 September 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by NarenThanikesh (talk • contribs) 15:30, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the removal of bullet lists
 * I did not see reference. Yes journals are fine, but books would be better. See WP:RS
 * Regression testing does not require tools at all, and the tools you listed, Selenium, WATIR, etc. are web tools. What about xunit or other automated functional GUI testing tools? There are also drawbacks to using tools, most famously addressed in James Bach's "Test Automation Snake Oil". Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:58, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

 * Thank you for pointing out the changes to be made.
 * Will look into the tools section, What about the drawbacks section? Was the content at fault, because again i read about those drawbacks in journals and referenced them as well. NarenThanikesh (talk) 16:41, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Use of Blockchain in Regression Testing
The use of regression testing in blockchain technology and cryptocurrencies is important to mention in this article due to following reason:

 * 1) Regression test (Regtest) mode provide developer to run in local private network, without knowing the use of regression test mode, developer will affect public blockchain information which is undesirable and have big risk from loss.
 * 2) Blockchain technology, unlike traditional technology which can delete testing data, data in blockchain are immutable and cannot be delete.

Therefore, regression test mode in blockchain can be more important than traditional software technology. Joeccho (talk) 02:59, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

 * There is absolutely nothing distinctive about this usage as compared to regression testing of any other type of software. The only source provided is a primary source. Per WP:UNDUE it does not merit a mention. MrOllie (talk) 03:08, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Traditional software technology, including mission critical software, have a strict control on deployment, it is not possible for developer to deploy the update without going strict testing.
 * Blockchain, however, ofter adopt loose control, developer may not know about regtest and will suffer loss if they directly launch to live without regtest.
 * So I think it is worth to mention. Joeccho (talk) 03:14, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 * That's not true, in either case. Non-blockchain (I guess that is what you mean by traditional) has many incidents of untested code being accidentally deployed to production or polluting production databases. And if it were possible for one developer to accidentally damage the main blockchain, it would have happened long ago. Prevention of things like that is the reason that the entire infrastructure of miners/validator nodes exists. MrOllie (talk) 03:23, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I think the risk are different. The risk of non-blockchain software is often bear by the company and the public.  However, the risk of blockchain is often the developer himeself.  The developer risk to loss his money if he do not have sufficient test.
 * For the source, the use of secondary source are more reliable than primary source are often true in medical and natural science discipline, but not in software technology discipline. Say a meta analysis and review on medicine are often more reliable than the primary research of the medical producer.  However, you cannot say the secondary source about Windows is often more reliable than Microsoft itself about Windows (except the criticism of Windows). Joeccho (talk) 03:33, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 * There is no exception for software topics in Wikipedia's sourcing policies and guidelines. Secondary sources are always preferred. The reason we require them is to avoid original research. That's what you are doing here - I think the risk are different. We cannot have a section in this article based on your personal opinion that there is some sort of difference between testing blockchain software vs anything else - there is no such difference, which is why there are no secondary sources to support your claims. MrOllie (talk) 03:48, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 * There are no one-size-fits-all guideline for reliability. For example, If you talk about software end-of-life policy or software support policy of a software, primary source (official website) must be only reliable source and other secondary source (university, academic paper, newspaper, etc) are consider less reliable.  However, if you talk about benefit of a medicine, secondary source meta-analysis are usually reliable than primary.  If you talk about a user procedure or user guideline or user manual of a product, primary source are often the most reliable sources, but if you talk about the benefit and the criticism of the product, then secondary sources are generally more reliable due to potential conflict of interest for primary source. In my case it is a user manual so it is more reliable than secondary source.  There are many secondary source to support, mainly from blockchain and cryptocurrencies communities, and some books, for example, .  However, official website consider most reliable. It seems this is the limitation of the guideline and need to found a way to improve it. Joeccho (talk) 04:19, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 * What you're saying here is plainly contradicted by Wikipedia's policies at WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:RS. You might hold such beliefs personally, but you're not going to be able to put that into practice on Wikipedia. And once again, you have not shown that regression testing on the blockchain is any different from anywhere else, and per WP:UNDUE your section doesn't belong in the article. MrOllie (talk) 12:45, 17 April 2023 (UTC)
 * For the reliable source, there are another guideline on primary source, see WP:PRIMARYNOTBAD. Joeccho (talk) 11:10, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Regression testing


text:
Quarter acre

In Australian and New Zealand English, a quarter acre is a term for a suburban plot of land. Traditionally, Australians and New Zealanders aspired to own a 3- or 4-bedroom house or bungalow on a section of around a quarter of an acre (about 1,000 square metres), also known locally as the Australian Dream or the New Zealand dream. The land was frequently put to use with vegetable gardens, fruit trees, or lawns for family recreation.

Demand for quarter-acre blocks were driven by easy access to motor vehicles, allowing for more low-density urban sprawl for blocks of these size. Demand in Australia was also driven by waves of European migrants, who were eager to own homes, and may not have had the opportunity to do so in Europe.

The quarter-acre aspiration has changed in recent decades, with sub-divisions, infill housing, apartments, and townhouses becoming more common in large cities, and nearby lifestyle farming blocks becoming popular. Most "quarter-acre" sections are not exactly a quarter of an acre. With urban growth, properties tend to be smaller with new sub-divisions averaging a half or less of the classic quarter-acre.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Quarter acre


text:
Talk:Himni i Flamurit

Official version
The official version may have changed yet again (in 2002) to be closer to the original poem according to this site:. I have not been able to verify this yet. Dori | Talk 23:52, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)
 * I just gave a look at the page about the anthem, on the official site of the Albanian president (the link is to the Albanian version. There should be an English version of this particular page too, but looks like it's not working at the moment). Apparently the lyrics written on the page are more similar to the original poem as you state above (for ex. "Të gjithë Atij duke u betuar"), but the wma file of the anthem, that you can download from the same site, still uses the most known lyrics (the one's posted on this site), (ex. "Të gjithë atje duke u betuar"). Sounds a bit confusing... since the changes apparently should have been made four years ago. jonosphere 00:30, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

In regards to the lyrics of the original poem, I found an interesting article from Vasil Tole (unfortunately this article doesn't appear in the English version of the site), who is a composer and has written a booklet on the history of the Albanian national anthem and the controversies associated with it. jonosphere 00:31, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if this will be seen by anyone relevant. But 217.224.207.5 keeps posting the Albanian language version over in the Maltese wikipedia. Does anyone have any idea why that might be happening? Srl 08:44, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC) Talk

Translation
It is translated too literally in the English version. The word order is incorrect. It must be changed.

 * It was worse before. I'll try to render it more properly. Vlug 23:17, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Neither the anthems of other countries featured in wiki don't have a proper poetic translation. I think the translation should be as much faithful as possible to the original. Or someone more able should put a third column with a poetic version, if needed. Dimror 09:59, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Literal translation:

Around the flag, united, With one desire and with one purpose, All there taking the oath, To tie the besa for salvation.

From the war only he leaves Who is born a traitor. Who is a man does not get intimidated But dies, but dies as a martyr.

In our hands we shall keep the weapons [In order] to protect the fatherland in every corner. Our rights we do not share [compromise]; Here the enemies have no place.

For God himself said it with his own mouth That nations extinguish [perish] upon [the face of] the earth, But Albania shall live [Because] for it, for it we will fight. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.183.240.185 (talk) 19:42, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

moves to establish a new anthem?
I am curious if some Albanians feel that the current anthem is a product of the more violent times of when it was written and would prefer a new anthem? This is another translation I found into English: Albanian Pledge to the Flag:

United around the flag With one desire and one goal Let us pledge our word of honor To fight for our salvation Only he who is a born traitor Averts from the struggle He who is brave is not daunted But falls - a martyr to the cause With arms in hand we shall remain To guard our fatherland round about Our rights we will not bequeath Enemies have no place here For the Lord Himself has said That nations vanish from the earth But Albania shall live on Because for her, it is for her that we fight

Here in America, many people prefer the song "America" over the National Anthem, due to its violent nature (a reflection of the Revolutionary War.) I can't read Albanian so not sure what some websites say about this, and if there could be found any Reliable Source material for a revision of the anthem to use in the article. HammerFilmFan (talk) 16:29, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I have never heard that anyone in Albania wants to revise the anthem. The current one is not more violent than many other national anthems (e.g. Algeria, Denmark [Royal Anthem], France, Mexico). You should see this in a historical context.

 * DIBA --176.94.44.42 (talk) 11:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Fourth stanza (not usually sung)
The heading above the fourth stanza is incorrect. On official occasions, either the first two stanzas or (rarely) the first four stanzas are sung, never the first three stanzas without the fourth. However, musical renditions of the complete poem do exist.

DIBA --176.94.44.42 (talk) 11:43, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

What does this mean?
"The words were written by the Albanian poet Asdreni but are merely different from the original Romanian lyrics which Andrei Barseanu wrote for Porumbescu's piece. [Emphasis mine]"

What is this supposed to mean? This seems like a non-native speaker using the wrong English phrase, because this doesn't mean anything in English. john k (talk) 14:39, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

This means that the lyrics written by the Albanian poet are a translation of the Romanian lyrics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.211.143 (talk) 05:50, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Himni i Flamurit. Please take a moment to review my edit. You may add after the link to keep me from modifying it, if I keep adding bad data, but formatting bugs should be reported instead. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether, but should be used as a last resort. I made the following changes:
 * Attempted to fix sourcing for http://geocities.com/vaso_tole/Albanian/NationAnthem-AL.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 11:02, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Questions about the IPA transcription

 * 1) The transcription as it currently stands appears to be systematically transforming any comma  in the punctuation of the source script into [ |] and any period (.) into [ ||]. Since [|] and [||] do not mean anything in IPA (as far as I am aware), can I take it that these transformations are accidental/unintentional and can therefore safely be removed?
 * 2) The first word of the anthem, Rreth, is transcribed as [rɛθ̟]. Again, this looks like an accident as I know of no IPA character [θ̟] (sic) or of the existence of more than one kind of [θ] (th) in Albanian.
 * 3) Something similar appears to have occurred with dh: see lidhim transcribed as [li.ð̟im]. Any comments? -- Picapica (talk) 18:58, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Alphabets
Were the additional transliterations current sometime between the publication of the poem and nowadays or were they in disuse before the publication (whence they are original research). --Error (talk) 15:34, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

 * I just removed the Greek and Cyrillic alphabet renditions. They're irrelevant, completely original, and very likely to cause offense. It's actually much more reasonable to provide the U.S. anthem in Tengwar or Shavian scripts. Getoar TX (talk) 20:00, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Arvanitic
The version in the Greek alphabet seems a mere transliteration (its IETF language tag would be sq-Grek). If it is in the Arvanitic dialect, its tag should be aat-Grek. --Error (talk) 15:34, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Himni i Flamurit


text:
William Muir

Sir William Muir (27 April 1819 – 11 July 1905) was a Scottish Orientalist, and colonial administrator, Principal of the University of Edinburgh and Lieutenant Governor of the North-West Provinces of British India.

Life
He was born at Glasgow the son of William Muir (1783–1820), a merchant, and Helen Macfie (1784–1866). His older brother was John Muir, the Indologist and Sanskrit scholar. He was educated at Kilmarnock Academy, the universities of Glasgow and Edinburgh, and Haileybury College. In 1837 he entered the Bengal civil service. Muir served as secretary to the governor of the North-West Provinces, and as a member of the Agra revenue board, and during the Mutiny he was in charge of the intelligence department there. In 1865 he was made foreign secretary to the Indian Government. In 1867 Muir was knighted (K.C.S.I.), and in 1868 he became lieutenant-governor of the North Western Provinces.

Having been criticised for the poor relief effort during the Orissa famine of 1866, the British began to discuss famine policy, and in 1868 Muir issued an order stating that: "... every District officer would be held personally responsible that no deaths occurred from starvation which could have been avoided by any exertion or arrangement on his part or that of his subordinates." In 1874 Muir was appointed financial member of the Viceroy's Council, and retired in 1876, when he became a member of the Council of India in London. James Thomason served as Muir's mentor with respect to Imperial administration; Muir later wrote an influential biography of Thomason.

Muir had always taken an interest in educational matters, and it was chiefly through his exertions that the central college at Allahabad, known as Muir Central College, was built and endowed. Muir College later became a part of the University of Allahabad. In 1884 Muir was elected president of the Royal Asiatic Society. In 1885 he was elected principal of the University of Edinburgh in succession to Sir Alexander Grant, and held the post till 1903, when he retired.

On 7 February 1840, he married Elizabeth Huntly (1822–1897), daughter of James Wemyss, collector of Cawnpore, and together they had 15 children. He died in Edinburgh, and is buried in Dean Cemetery. The grave lies in the concealed lower southern terrace.

Works, reception, and legacy
Muir was a scholar of Islam. His chief area of expertise was the history of the time of Muhammad and the early caliphate. His chief books are A Life of Mahomet and History of Islam to the Era of the Hegira; Annals of the Early Caliphate; The Caliphate: Its rise, decline and fall, an abridgment and continuation of the Annals, which brings the record down to the fall of the caliphate on the onset of the Mongols; The Koran: its Composition and Teaching; and The Mohammedan Controversy, a reprint of five essays published at intervals between 1885 and 1887. In 1888 he delivered the Rede lecture at Cambridge on The Early Caliphate and Rise of Islam.

Life of Mahomet
His original book A Life of Mahomet and History of Islam to the Era of the Hegira was initially published 1861 in four volumes. The book received attention in both literary and missionary circles, and provoked responses ranging from appreciation to criticism. It would eventually evoke a rebuttal from Sayyid Ahmad Khan.

Contemporary reviewers of Muir's Life of Mahomet uniformly praised him for his knowledge of Arabic. The only competing work in Britain at the time was a book by Harrow schoolmaster Reginald Bosworth Smith, who had no Arabic language skills. The work was also praised by Christian missionaries who welcomed it as an aid to convert Muslims.

Contemporary historian E. A. Freeman praised the book as a "great work", yet questioned its conjectural methodology, particularly Muir's suggestion that Muhammad was inspired by Satan. Contemporary Aloys Sprenger also criticized Muir for ascribing Islam's origins to "the Devil". The British Quarterly Review of 1872 criticized his approach as "he is treading ground whither the historian of events and creeds must refuse to follow him".

A significant rebuttal to Muir's book was written Syed Ahmed Khan in 1870 called A Series of Essays on the Life of Mohammed, and Subjects Subsidiary Thereto. Khan praised Muir's writing talent and familiarity with Oriental literature, but criticized Muir's reliance on weak sources like al-Waqidi. He accused Muir of misrepresenting the facts and writing with animus. Written objections to this aspect of Life could be found in the writings of Muslims living inside British India only after the Indian Rebellion of 1857, an unsuccessful uprising against the East India Company.

Later reviews of the work have also been mixed, with many scholars describing Muir's work as polemical. W. M. Watt (1961) described Muir's Life as following "in detail the standard Muslim accounts, though not uncritically". Mohammed Hussein Heikal regarded Muir's work as an argumentum ad hominem fallacy. Albert Hourani (1980) said Muir's writing, while "still not quite superseded", regarded Muhammad as "the Devil's instrument" and Muslim society as "barren and bound to remain so". Aaron W. Hughes (2012) writes that Muir's work was part of a European Orientalist tradition that sought to show that Islam was "a corruption, a garbled version of existing monotheisms". Bennett (1998) praises it as "a detailed life of Muhammad more complete than almost any other previous book, at least in English," noting however that besides "placing the facts of Muhammad's life before both Muslim and Christian readers, Muir wanted to convince Muslims that Muhammad was not worth their allegiance. He thus combined scholarly and evangelical or missionary purposes." Commenting on Muir's conjecture that Muhammad may have been affected by a Satanic influence, Clinton Bennett says that Muir "chose to resurrect another old Christian theory", and quotes the following passage from Muir's 1858 Life, vol. 2:

"It is incumbent upon us to consider this question from a Christian point of view, and to ask whether the supernatural influence, which ... acted upon the soul of the Arabian prophet may not have proceeded from the Evil One ... Our belief in the power of the Evil One must lead us to consider this as at least one of the possible causes of the fall of Mahomet... into the meshes of deception ... May we conceive that a diabolical influence and inspiration was permitted to enslave the heart of him who had deliberately yielded to the compromise with evil."

In the final chapters of Life, Muir concluded that the main legacy of Islam was a negative one, and he subdivided it in "three radical evils": "First: Polygamy, Divorce, and Slavery strike at the root of public morals, poison domestic life, and disorganise society; while the Veil removes the female sex from its just position and influence in the world. Second: freedom of thought and private judgment are crushed and annihilated. Toleration is unknown, and the possibility of free and liberal institutions foreclosed. Third: a barrier has been interposed against the reception of Christianity."

According to Edward Said, although Muir's Life of Mahomet and The Caliphate "are still considered reliable monuments of scholarship", his work was characterized by an "impressive antipathy to the Orient, Islam and the Arabs", and "his attitude towards his subject matter was fairly put by him when he said that 'the sword of Muhammed, and the Kor'an, are the most stubborn enemies of Civilisation, Liberty, and the Truth which the world has yet known'". Daniel Martin Varisco rejects Said's assessment that Muir's Life was considered reliable by the 1970s. He writes "Serious historians had long since relegated Muir's work to the rare-books sections of their libraries."

Other works
Muir's later Annals was received with fewer reservations by the Times reviewer and other newspapers of the day. It was the Annals that established Muir's reputation as a leading scholar on Islam in Britain. Nevertheless, his earlier hypercritical Life of Mahomet was used as a poster child by contemporary Muslim commentators—especially by Indian ones connected to the movement of Syed Ahmed Khan—to dismiss all criticism of their society emanating from Western scholars. Syed Ameer Ali went as far as to declare Muir "Islam's avowed enemy".

An illustrative aspect in the evolution of Muir's positions is his stance on the Crusades. In his writings of the 1840s, he goaded Christian scholars to verbal warfare against Muslims using aggressive crusader imagery. Fifty year later, Muir redirected the invective hitherto reserved for the Muslims to the crusading leaders and armies, and while still finding some faults with the former, he praised Saladin for knightly values. (Muir's anti-Catholic animus may have played a role in this too.) Despite his later writings, Muir's reputation as an unfair critic of Islam remained strong in Muslim circles. Powell finds that William Muir deserves much of the criticism laid by Edward Said and his followers against 19th century Western scholarship on Islam.

Muir was a committed Evangelical Christian and was invited to preface many missionary biographies and memoirs, speak at conferences and to publicise Zenana missions. He wrote "If Christianity is anything, it must be everything. It cannot brook a rival, nor cease to wage war against all other faiths, without losing its strength and virtue." In his official capacity as principal of Edinburgh University, Muir chaired many meetings of Evangelists at the university, organised to support overseas missionary efforts, and addressed by speakers such as Henry Drummond. In India, William Muir founded the Indian Christian village Muirabad, near Allahabad. Muir was impressed with the discovery of the Apology of al-Kindy; he lectured on it at the Royal Asiatic Society, presenting it as an important link in what he saw as a chain of notable conversions to Christianity, and later he published the translated sources. A proselytising text, Bakoorah shahiya (Sweet First Fruits) was published under his name as well, but this work had actually been written by a convert to Protestantism from Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

In The Mohammedan Controversy, he wrote: "Britain must not faint until her millions in the East abandon both the false prophet and the idol shrines and rally around that eternal truth which has been brought to light in the Gospel."

Daniel Pipes investigated the origin of the phrase "Satanic Verses", and concluded that despite Salman Rushdie's claim that he had borrowed the phrase from Tabari, the earliest traceable occurrence is in Muir's Life of Mohamet (1858) in a passage discussing "two Satanic verses". The phrase does not appear in the revised edition of 1912 though.

Statuary
A marble statue by George Blackall Simmonds was erected in his honour and unveiled by the then Viceroy of India at the opening of Muir College on 8 April 1886, and was still there in 2012. Another was proposed for the Muslim college, but due to opposition the scheme was dropped.

Family
He was the brother of the indologist John Muir. He married Elizabeth Huntly Wemyss in 1840 (died 1897), and had five sons and six daughters; four of his sons served in India, and one of them, Colonel A. M. Muir (died 1899), was Political Officer for South Baluchistan, and was acting British Resident in Nepal when he died. One daughter, Jane, married Colonel Andrew Wauchope and lived at Edinburgh Castle. One of his son-in-laws was the civil servant William Henry Lowe.

Publications

 * The Life of Mahomet [Muhammad] and History of Islam to the Era of the Hegira
 * Vols. 1–2 (published in 1858) by Smith, Elder, & Co.
 * Vols. 3–4 (published in 1861) by Smith, Elder, & Co. together with a reprinting of the first two volumes; title shortened to The Life of Muhammad.
 * The Life of Mahomet [Mohammad] from original sources
 * 2nd abridged one-volume ed. of the above (published in 1878), xi+errata slip, xxviii, 624 pp. London: Smith, Elder, & Co.
 * 3rd abridged ed. (published in 1894) by Smith, Elder, & Co., ciii, 536 p.
 * posthumously revised ed. by Thomas Hunter Weir published in (1912) as The life of Mohammad from original sources, cxix, 556 pp.
 * The Opium Revenue (1875)
 * The Coran: Its Composition and Teaching (1878)
 * The Apology of al-Kindy (1882)
 * Annals of the Early Caliphate (1883)
 * The Rise and Decline of Islam (1883)
 * Mahomet [Muhammad] and Islam: A Sketch of the Prophet's Life (1887)
 * The Caliphate: Its Rise, Decline and Fall (1891; revised ed. 1915)
 * Sweet First-Fruits. A tale of the Nineteenth Century, on the truth and virtue of the Christian Religion (trans. 1893)
 * The Beacon of Truth; or, Testimony of the Coran to the Truth of the Christian Religion (1894)
 * The Mameluke or Slave Dynasty of Egypt, 1260–1517 AD, end of the Caliphate (1896)
 * Agra in the Mutiny: And the Family Life of W. & E. H. Muir in the Fort, 1857 : a Sketch for Their Children (1896). 59 pp. Privately published.
 * James Thomason, lieutenant-governor N.-W. P., India (1897)
 * The Mohammedan Controversy (1897)
 * The Sources of Islam, A Persian Treatise, by the Rev. W. St. Clair-Tisdall, translated and abridged by W. M. (1901). Edinburgh, T & T Clark.
 * Two Old Faiths: Essays on the Religions of the Hindus and the Mohammedans. J. Murray Mitchell and Sir William Muir. (1901). New York: Chautauqua Press.
 * Records of the Intelligence Department of the Government of the North-West Provinces of India during the Mutiny of 1857 including correspondence with the supreme government, Delhi, Cawnpore, and other places. (1902). 2 vols, Edinburgh, T & T Clark.
 * The Lord's Supper: an abiding witness to the death of Christ (nd)

title: William Muir


text:
User:Bong

I'm just a minor contributor

Contributions here

title: User:Bong


text:
User talk:ScottM

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia! Hope you like it here, and stick around.

Here are some tips to help you get started:

 * Try the Tutorial, and feel free to experiment in the test area.
 * If you need help, post a question at the Help Desk
 * Eventually, you might want to read the Manual of Style and Policies and Guidelines.
 * Remember Neutral point of view
 * Explore, be bold in editing pages, and, most importantly, have fun!

Good luck!

[[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]]

P.S. One last helpful hint. To sign your posts like I did above (on talk pages, for example) use the '~' symbol. To insert just your name, type ~~~ (3 tildes), or, to insert your name and timestamp, use ~~~~ (4 tildes).

Soviet Military History
Hey Scott,

I meant to let you know this earlier, but it slipped my mind: Military history of the Soviet Union is the Collaboration of the week, at least for several more hours. You might be interested in having a look at it. Ciao. - RedWordSmith 20:22, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)

The Living Corpse
Hey Scott, I was wondering if you had noticed the Tolstoy play, The Living Corpse, on the main page in the DYK section. It's kind of further down on the page, so I couldn't be sure. - RedWordSmith 16:06, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

IMAO Entry
In time past you suported keeping an IMAO article. A new and more apporpriate one has been written. would you weigh in? Imao_blog FlyingSpaceMonkey 22:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Timeline of fictional future events
You commented in the last Article for deletion discussion. This article is up for deletion again.

You are welcome to comment about the discussion for deletion. Ikip 19:03, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

title: User talk:ScottM


text:
Talk:Reissner-Nordström black hole

How can Q be compared to M when they have different units? lysdexia 23:53, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

they can be compared to each other in terms of gravitational radiation effect

 * In "natural units" Phys 18:00, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Gunnar Nordstöm was a Finnish Swede (well, I assume he was ethnically Swedish, based on the name) so his name is spelt with ö not ø. See, e.g. Gunnar Nordström symposium. –Joke137 17:36, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????8-bit theater

New article
Shouldn't there be separate articles for the Reissner-Nordstrom metric and the RN black hole ? MP  (talk) 10:30, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Proposed changes:
I believe that the vector potential should be

 * $$A_a = \left(\frac{Q}{r}, 0, 0, 0\right)$$.

No subscript or superscript was written, and A was introduced as $$A^a$$. However, I don't get a sensible Faraday tensor unless I assume that expression is $$A_a$$.

I belive that it should be explictly mentioned that the Coulomb force constant has been assumed to be equal to 1 in the units section. It was mentioned that G = c = 1, which is good, but because this is a charged black hole, the reader needs to know how to convert the electromagnetic units as well.

A link should probably be made to geometric units here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometrized_unit_system

I'm a bit concerned about the clarity of the geometric units pages for MKS charge units (but this is the wrong place to talk about that).

I'm going to leave this up for comments before I attempt to make any edits.

Pervect 23:06, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

No Sources
I would like to see where some of this is coming from. A comment was posted on Black hole electron quoting this page as reason to deny the existence of a black hole electron. I'd like to review the original sources.... because... This page mentions stuff like Q < M all the time, but the units don't match, you can't compare mass and charge, unless maybe they're using planck units, but then that should be stated, and the conversion rate given. McKay 01:39, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * These are geometrized units. --216.13.72.131 23:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I mentioned that it could be Planck units, that's a type of geometrized unit system. But one could also define the distance from the earth to the sun as the length unit, the mass of Pentium 3 as the default mass unit, and the time of the vibration of a cesium atom as the default time unit. If you're geometrizing, you need to say which system you're using.
 * Also, you still need sources. McKay 04:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Reissner-Nordström black hole


text:
Foe Hammer

Foe Hammer can refer to:

 * The sword Glamdring (in Sindarin: 'glam'=foe, 'dring'=hammer) in the works of J. R. R. Tolkien
 * King Roland of Delain's mighty Arrow in Stephen King's novel The Eyes of the Dragon
 * The primary weapons of the MCRN Donnager in The Expanse (novel series)

title: Foe Hammer


text: Category:Web hosting

title: Category:Web hosting


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zahran

Zahran
This vanity page consists of a long list of complaints and bragging. Apparently, somebody didn't let Zahran copy their homework. No evidence given of notability. [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 23:56, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete, no doubt. Speedy? Nadavspi 01:29, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

title: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zahran


text:
Agoh–Giuga conjecture

In number theory the Agoh–Giuga conjecture on the Bernoulli numbers Bk postulates that p is a prime number if and only if

 * $$pB_{p-1} \equiv -1 \pmod p.$$

It is named after Takashi Agoh and Giuseppe Giuga.

Equivalent formulation
The conjecture as stated above is due to Takashi Agoh (1990); an equivalent formulation is due to Giuseppe Giuga, from 1950, to the effect that p is prime if and only if

 * $$1^{p-1}+2^{p-1}+ \cdots +(p-1)^{p-1} \equiv -1 \pmod p$$

which may also be written as

 * $$\sum_{i=1}^{p-1} i^{p-1} \equiv -1 \pmod p.$$

It is trivial to show that p being prime is sufficient for the second equivalence to hold, since if p is prime, Fermat's little theorem states that

 * $$a^{p-1} \equiv 1 \pmod p$$

for $$a = 1,2,\dots,p-1$$, and the equivalence follows, since $$p-1 \equiv -1 \pmod p.$$

Status
The statement is still a conjecture since it has not yet been proven that if a number n is not prime (that is, n is composite), then the formula does not hold. It has been shown that a composite number n satisfies the formula if and only if it is both a Carmichael number and a Giuga number, and that if such a number exists, it has at least 13,800 digits (Borwein, Borwein, Borwein, Girgensohn 1996). Laerte Sorini, finally, in a work of 2001 showed that a possible counterexample should be a number n greater than 1036067 which represents the limit suggested by Bedocchi for the demonstration technique specified by Giuga to his own conjecture.

Relation to Wilson's theorem
The Agoh–Giuga conjecture bears a similarity to Wilson's theorem, which has been proven to be true. Wilson's theorem states that a number p is prime if and only if

 * $$(p-1)! \equiv -1 \pmod p,$$

which may also be written as

 * $$\prod_{i=1}^{p-1} i \equiv -1 \pmod p.$$

For an odd prime p we have

 * $$\prod_{i=1}^{p-1} i^{p-1} \equiv (-1)^{p-1} \equiv 1 \pmod p,$$

and for p=2 we have

 * $$\prod_{i=1}^{p-1} i^{p-1} \equiv (-1)^{p-1} \equiv 1 \pmod p.$$

So, the truth of the Agoh–Giuga conjecture combined with Wilson's theorem would give: a number p is prime if and only if
 * $$\sum_{i=1}^{p-1} i^{p-1} \equiv -1 \pmod p$$

and

 * $$\prod_{i=1}^{p-1} i^{p-1} \equiv 1 \pmod p.$$

title: Agoh–Giuga conjecture


text:
User talk:Valette

Valette has a blog

Valette is an amateur photographer and has a photolog

Valette grew up in Homer, Alaska but currently resides in Fairbanks, Alaska

Speedy deletion nomination of Alaska Marine Highway System

A tag has been placed on Alaska Marine Highway System requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about an organization or company, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please read more about what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator. Compassionate727 (talk) 00:07, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Valette


text:
User:Rholton/Nautilus (railcar)

Nautilus II at the Monticello Railway Museum

1933 World's Fair info]

From the Shedd Aquarium website]

link to a good photo of Nautilus II

title: User:Rholton/Nautilus (railcar)


text: Category:Washington County, Oklahoma

title: Category:Washington County, Oklahoma


text:
Earl of Menteith

The Mormaer or Earl of Menteith was the ruler of the province of Menteith in the Middle Ages. The first mormaer is usually regarded as Gille Críst (or Gilchrist), simply because he is the earliest on record. The title was held in a continuous line from Gille Críst until Muireadhach IV (a.k.a. Murdoch Stewart, Duke of Albany), although the male line was broken on two occasions. A truncated version of the earldom was given two years later to Malise Graham, 1st Earl of Menteith, in compensation for loss of the Earldom of Strathearn, which was a likely result of the execution of the Duke of Albany.

First line of mormaers/earls

 * Gille Críst, Earl of Menteith (Gilcrist) (d. 1189)
 * Muireadhach I, Earl of Menteith (d. 1213)
 * Muireadhach II, Earl of Menteith (d. 1234)
 * Isabella, Countess of Menteith
 * m. Walter Comyn, Lord of Badenoch assumed the peerage in her right.
 * Mary I, Countess of Menteith
 * m. Walter "Bailloch" Stewart

Second line, Stewarts of Menteith

 * Alexander, Earl of Menteith
 * Alan, Earl of Menteith
 * Alan II, Earl of Menteith
 * Muireadhach III, Earl of Menteith (d. 1332)
 * Mary Menteith, Countess of Menteith
 * m. Sir John Graham assumed the peerage in her right.
 * Margaret, Countess of Menteith
 * m. Robert Stewart, Duke of Albany
 * Muireadhach IV Stewart, Earl of Menteith, executed in 1425 and the peerages forfeited.

Third line, Grahams of Menteith

 * Malise Graham, 1st Earl of Menteith (1406–1490)
 * Alexander Graham, 2nd Earl of Menteith (c. 1475–c. 1537)
 * William Graham, 3rd Earl of Menteith (c. 1500–c. 1543)
 * John Graham, 4th Earl of Menteith (c. 1529–c. 1565)
 * William Graham, 5th Earl of Menteith (c. 1555–c. 1578)
 * John Graham, 6th Earl of Menteith (c. 1571–c. 1598)
 * William Graham, 7th Earl of Menteith (c. 1591–1661), also created Earl of Airth in 1633
 * William Graham, 8th Earl of Menteith (c. 1634–1694), extinct or dormant after his death on 12 September 1694

title: Earl of Menteith


text:
User talk:Duck61801

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia! Hope you like it here, and stick around.

Here are some tips to help you get started:

 * Try the Tutorial, and feel free to experiment in the test area.
 * If you need help, post a question at the Help Desk
 * Eventually, you might want to read the Manual of Style and Policies and Guidelines.
 * Remember Neutral point of view
 * Explore, be bold in editing pages, and, most importantly, have fun!

Good luck!

[[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]]

P.S. One last helpful hint. To sign your posts like I did above (on talk pages, for example) use the '~' symbol. To insert just your name, type ~~~ (3 tildes), or, to insert your name and timestamp, use ~~~~ (4 tildes).

title: User talk:Duck61801


text:
User talk:Rdsmith4/Archive 1

Archived talk from User talk:Rdsmith4, 5/25/2004 to 11/10/2004.

USGP reports
Hi,

I believe you added the "Report" links to the individual events listed on the USGP page. Do you plan to create these pages? This is my reason for asking: I have reports of each of these races that I wrote and once hosted on my own site. They have been on another site (Formula One Results and Information Explorer) for 3-4 years, but that site now requires a subscription to view. I would be happy to use my reports as the basis for new articles here, but I don't want to step on your toes if that is something you are working on. Thanks. Rdikeman 18:59, May 24, 2004 (UTC)
 * No, not at all! Feel free to add all you want - I had intended to do them all eventually but this would save me a ton of work. Thanks a lot! Rdsmith4 16:27, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

Ive edited the image placement on Enclave as the image was spilling over into the wiki Standard Skin Toolbar when viewed with Internet Explorer. PMA 10:16, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Jenson Button photos
Are those your images on the Jenson Button page? Are they truly public domain? (It doesn't say.)

If you think it would be preferable to have our own images of him, in and out of the car, I have some to offer.

Thanks. Rdikeman 11:10, Jul 2, 2004 (UTC)

Admin status
Hey, I just wanted to let you know that I think it's great you're so interested in helping Wikipedia and fighting vandalism. That said, I think it would probably be a good idea for you to remove your request for adminship from WP:RFA. For most people, the minimum requirements for administrator status are 3 months at Wikipedia and 1000 edits. Furthermore, the fact that you placed your nomination on Recently created admins suggests you may not be quite up enough on Wikipedia policy yet to be an administrator. That said, when you've been around a bit longer, feel free to drop me a note and I'll happily renominate you. And if you have any questions or anything about Wikipedia, again, please drop me a note.

Oh, and there's no policy at all against a non-admin reverting vandalism. In fact, everybody is encouraged to revert vandalism, and the fact that you do it is a big plus.

Best, Snowspinner 04:53, Jul 30, 2004 (UTC)

 * Okay then. Thanks for your suggestion. Putting my nomination on the wrong page was just a dumb mistake as I had just been reading WP:RFA a moment before, but far be it from me to nominate myself before the requisite time. (I rather wish they could be clear about what they expect in the Requirements section.) Rdsmith4 05:11, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Image:Schumacher A1Ring.jpg
What's the copyright status of Image:Schumacher A1Ring.jpg? Is it yours? Is it used by permission? Or is it being used under a Fair use claim? Please let us know by adding the appropriate copyright tag. —Morven 14:44, Aug 9, 2004 (UTC)
 * Fair use, as best as I can tell. Sorry to take so long; I've been out of town. Rdsmith4 | Talk 03:19, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Photoshop rotation
Hi Dan! I think it was you who asked how to know the correct rotation of a sloping pic in Photoshop. It's easy, so here's how (for the version I've got, which is 6.0) :

Right Click the EYEDROPPER icon (but it might be called Colour Sampler or Measure Tool) immediately above the Magnifying Glass, and choose the MEASURE TOOL icon (a little ruler). Choose a line on your pic that you want to make horizontal or vertical. Hold down the Left Mouse Button and pull a line out along that piece (how far you pull the line doesn't matter). Then from the top menus choose IMAGE, ROTATE CANVAS, ARBITRARY and you'll see the exact correction angle in a box. Just click on OK and the pic will be rotated automatically for you.

Clip away the black edges by choosing the CROP TOOL (its icon is a square with the edges extended a bit, and a thin diagonal line through it), pull a rectangle around the pic to exclude the black bits, and double click inside your pulled-out rectangle to finish. I then save to a new file name. Any problems just ask. PS - try to choose a vertical to be corrected, horizontals might quite correctly be sloping due to perspective, but verticals should always be vertical - Adrian Pingstone 08:22, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

thanks
Thanks for the welcome...yeh someone needs to do reports for the races - it is tough remembering, but the FIA Website has a good archive of lap-by-lap notes that can be turned into a proper report.
 * Albinomonkey - 28 Sep 2004

You're a sysop!
I'm pleased to let you know that, consensus being reached, you are now an administrator. Congratulations!. You should read the relevant policies and other pages linked to from the administrators' reading list before carrying out tasks like deletion, protection, banning users, and editing protected pages such as the Main Page. Most of what you do is easily reversible by other sysops, apart from page history merges and image deletion, so please be especially careful with those. You might find the new administrators' how-to guide helpful. Cheers! -- Cecropia | Talk 17:59, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Congratulations! [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (talk)]] 04:55, Oct 3, 2004 (UTC)
 * You're welcome, and congrats!  – Andre ( talk )  15:03, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Congrats! --  ℛ yan! |  Talk  19:28, Oct 3, 2004 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. Congratulations! ffirehorse 19:33, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * ..and another congratulation! (a few days late, I know) —Stormie 01:47, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

CSS
I know what problem you're talking about, and it's part of the reason why I'm not using it currently (other part is that I want some change). It got broken by some edit to MediaWiki:Monobook.css, which one I can't remember. I made an attempt to fix it then, but for some reason it wouldn't work. I'm sure it can be solved though... I might give it a try in the near future (unless you want to go for it). Fredrik | talk 19:33, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Your fix is only partial though... the borders are there but not the background color.

I don't know what to do about the icons.

Tell me if you make any more edits to it. Thanks! Fredrik | talk 14:04, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ferrari Pictures
Complete. Added two other pictures, put my "credit" on all three, released all to the public domain. When you get a chance, read this:

http://www.gadgetopia.com/2004/10/02/WikipediaImages.html

Deane 19:59, Oct 2, 2004 (UTC)

FOX
I find your revert rather purposefully naive. No, the site did not spell it out, but they clearly did not think it was an editorial mistake. Do you? I mean, follow the Communists for Kerry link in the FOX article. Click "About Us". That's not an editorial mistake. So, I'll go find some link that explicitly accuses FOX of bias in this case. Or would you revert that too? Wolfman 23:47, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Thank you for your reply. I think your point perhaps has some merit, though I disagree with point about the blog being minor -- that is linked right now by most of the liberal blogosphere.  The verifiable issue is one of journalistic standards; the suspicion is that these lax standards would never happen in an article about Bush.  I think a new section on 'criticism of journalistic standards' is in order.  The 'communists for kerry' clearly belongs there, as does this  story and many others. The BGH story  would fit better there as well.

Perhaps a 'journalist standards' section with a criticism subsection would be more NPOV if FOX has any Pulitzers or the like to report. Wolfman 00:29, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I have taken the liberty of posting our conversation & my new proposal to the Fox Talk page, I hope you don't mind. Wolfman 00:59, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

List of Everyone Who Has Ever Lived
Thanks for your addition of David Horowitz to the List of Everyone Who Has Ever Lived. Should you make any additions in the future, however, please follow the existing examples for guidance as to placement and titling of wikilinks. Thanks! (btw, I'm not the one who added the subhuman socialist scumbag Chomsky. Someone else did that :D) Kurt Weber 13:30, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Opera pic
Thanks for uploading Image:Opera-Bastille-2.jpg. I notice it currently doesn't have an image copyright tag. Could you add one to let us know its copyright status? (You can use if you release it under the GFDL, or  if you claim fair use, etc.) Thanks so much,    – Quadell (talk) (help)   17:14, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)

Vandalism report
I just received a private message to my ip, in which you claimed I carried out vandalism in some wikipedia page (??) and my editing rights are to be revoked (???). I would like this accusation to be sustained. Krasniy_Volk

Pit stop image
Good work on getting Image:BAR pitstop.jpg for the pit stop article. It illustrates what a pit stop is better than words ever could. Thanks, SamH 16:09, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for repairing my link to Youssou N’dour! I was about to give up on it. It was only after I saw that you repaired it that I realized what was wrong, apostrophes don't translate properly from my word processor to Wikipedia. Nod. Justin Foote 00:58, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

My nomination for adminship
Thank you for supporting my nomination for adminship. I will do my best to serve Wikipedia. --Slowking Man 00:03, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

Signature
Why did you sign as Dannyboy instead of Rdsmith4?? 66.245.69.118 22:54, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * No reason in particular. A lot of peoples' signatures are different from their usernames. If you get a username and log in, you can modify your signature to say whatever you like in your preferences. (Copied from User talk:66.245.69.118) Ðåñηÿßôý | Talk 22:59, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Vandalism
i'll do what i want!!! mmmHmmmm! (24.208.221.222 / talk)

 * how could i stay mad at a queen fan... c'mere!!! (24.208.221.222 / talk)

Wow, thank you!
Thanks for the message you put on my user-page. I will be very enthusiastic in starting the Formula One Drivers template. I'm very much looking forward to seeing the template you've proposed!

To be honest, I always thought it needed a template myself, but I wasn't sure what it should look like (I'm not the most design-orientated/organized person in the world..!)

Rest assured I'll be up and editing in no time!

Schumacher revert
Hello. What is the reason for your recent revert on the Michael Schumacher article? It seems to me that you removed interesting info. SamH 13:03, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I agree that the last sentence was slightly POV. Your version is much better. SamH 15:54, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

SubGenius
SubGenius is a trademark of SubGenius Networks in addition to the title of a religion. SubGenius is not a registered trademark of anyone. Wikipedia's redirect from SubGenius/Subgenius to 'the chutch of the subgenius' is in error. (24.254.56.98 | talk)

 * We're not defining 'SubGenius Networks' nor 'The Church of the SubGenius'. SUBGENIUS ALONE is the subject of this post and SUBGENIUS has a meaning apart from 'The Church of the SubGenius'. SUBGENIUS is a public domain word in use as part of 'SubGenius Networks' own trademark.

 * SUBGENIUS ALONE, as it is defined.. has two meanings.

1. A denizen of the underground "subculture", attuned to the obscure. 2. Basis of the Church of the Subgenius.

 * SUBGENIUS is a trademark of SubGenius Networks ( subgenius.net) in addition to the title of a religion ( subgenius.com). SubGenius is not a registered trademark of anyone. Wikipedia's redirect from SubGenius/Subgenius to 'the church of the subgenius' is in error. (24.254.56.98 | talk)

Fourth empire
It was not nonsense and you should have left it for a vote! If you do not like me deleting your stuff do not delete others without a vote! You are not an administrator! (62.253.64.13 | talk)

Fox News
Why did you (1) revert without discussing and (2) mark a revert as minor? That's dishonest. I'm reinstating my edits and hope you will discuss before reverting next time.

I admit my change was perhaps a little cheeky, but I gave a reason on the Talk page, and you gave none for the revert, either on the page or in your edit summary. I'm willing to be talked into the revert, but not bullied into it. Bds yahoo 23:56, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Hi, where is your reply on the Talk page? Can't locate it. Bds yahoo 00:17, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

If I may ask, what was wrong with 216.27.183.122's edits to FOX News? Are they factually inaccurate? They seem like legitimate edits to me. Anyhow, the sysop revert button is generally reserved for instances for vandalism or bad-faith edits. In cases otherwise, I'd reccomend doing a old-style revert with a detailed edit summary. Thanks. BLANKFAZE | (что??) 22:14, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I have replied at User talk:Blankfaze. Rdsmith4— Dan | Talk 23:21, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

ADW Vote
The vote for General Secretary of the Association of Deletionist Wikipedians has opened. Please visit the page and vote for who you think would make the best choice. --Slowking Man 03:37, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)

International Buttsecks Day
International Buttsecks Day should not be recreated. We should be monitoring who's creating the entries and listing on the vandalisation page. - Ta bu shi da yu 06:32, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Previous Problems With Nirvana Article
This regards the article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/With_the_Lights_Out

I came across that article from a link from a Nirvana message baord. I at the time had never been to Wikipedia and did not know what this site was. My dillema is this: This might sound really strange and believe me I've learned my lesson: The tracklisting for the upcoming Nirvana boxset is under lock and key. It has not been released yet at all. Not even one song is known on the listing. I had edited the page just screwing around with test data, because I had never used this site before. I had made a FAKE list of songs to test editing the page. After I had made my edit and figured out how to do it, I had deleted what I had typed. Everything was safe and sound until I came back much later on. People had looked at the history of that page edit and took the FAKE list I made up and reposted it. Vandals had messed with the page, and for some reason an editor of this site had protected the page, and reverted back to my first version with the fake tracklisting. So for awhile the page was protected with the fake tracklisting. I then became frantic. What if someone from the press got ahold of that list and thought it was true while the page was uneditable? I emailed some of he ediors on the page about it. What I ask and beg is that you and others keep an eye on that article for anyone posting that old tracklisting I made. IT IS NOT REAL. I simply used it as test data to practice editing a page. I don't know why anyone reverted back to it without any research, and after I deleted it. The tracklisting as of yet does not exist and won't for a month. Right now the tracklisting is blank is that page, after I talked to some people about it. And I ask of you that it stays like that until an official word is out. Could you even protect the page so that vandals cannot further do it again, at least until nov 23 when the real trackisting will be revealed? Thank you, and again I don't know why this got so out of hand. (128.119.146.183 | Talk)

i would like an apology for your misunderstanding
the facts in my paris hilton edit were correct and rendered in a neutral way, you had no right to alter them. I realize that words like "nigger" are commonly used in vandalous ways but you could simple could have googled "paris hilton" nigger and had your answer in all of two seconds. There is no excuse for academic laziness like that. You call yourself an administrator.

A non black person who uses the word nigger outside of very narrowly defined and still controversial contexts is a racial slurrer. That is the definition. The racial slur was heard in her latest sex tape. Maybe you should preoccupy yourself less with esp truth deducing (which might explain your passionate, factually stingy, defense of zionism. Here's a hint, assume is not the only step before writing something down.  You're in for alot of nasty surprises (especially from the female sex) if you keep assuming. (69.197.194.92 | Talk)

Fox to the right revert
Fox is absolutely to the Right by interpretation of their own definition of other players, as they describe (in nasty language) all other media as being to the Left, Far Left, Radical Left, Leftist Media, etc. So what's NNPOV about describing them as to the Right of most media? Leonard G. 17:50, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

(Message echoed here):
 * {FOX contends that it is neutral, and to say without qualification that it lies to the right of other news sources is easily open to misinterpretation. There was already a discussion on the subject, during which time a statement very similar to the one I reverted was added to the opening paragraph of the article (see Talk:FOX News/Archive three). It was decided that it would best belong in the first paragraph of "Allegations of bias," where a slightly modified version still remains:

 * FOX News asserts that it is more objective and factual than other American networks, and its promotional statements include "fair and balanced" and "we report, you decide." The network thus intends to provide an alternative to such news sources as CNN, MSNBC, NBC, ABC, or CBS, for those who believe that the other networks are dominated by a liberal bias. There is a widespread perception that FOX lies to the political right of most other prominent news sources; there is much dispute, however, as to whether the channel is actually a neutral source, or carries a bias in favor of right-wing, conservative, or Republican interests.

 * I think that passage expresses the same idea in a more neutral fashion. (I have cross-posted my reply to Talk:FOX News.) Rdsmith4— Dan | Talk 18:01, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Please see my reply to your latest message at Talk:FOX News. Rdsmith4— Dan | Talk 18:11, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I got your message, just after putting my oar into the article. Revert if you wish, I don't care about Fox that much, but I think that my statement holds up - that Fox is implicitly self describing itself as right wing. What they publicly claim is that they are in the middle, which is a mater of perception management, especially considering what would be to their right, I think that we all realize that the political spectrum is not a straight line, but more like a color wheel, where really extreme left (Communist dictatorship) meets extreme right (Fascist dictatorship. So placing Fox on this wheel is really a matter of finding where the middle is. Another way of classifying is to use a two or three dimensional descriptive space, with the "middle" in the center of the space, and axis describing qualities. Most people are not single dimensional (although they may be subject to single-issue political methods). Best wishes, Leonard G. 18:19, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

F1
Just a personal preference that a table should have a <caption>. I see you copied the large flag over from the previous style, but I think that 100px is too large for a flag, which is just repeating the title. To be honest I'm not 100% happy with the layout as it is, so keep moving stuff around until it looks good. ed g2s •  talk  01:56, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Bush picture -> Kerry campaign logo
Does the pix of the Bush family morfs into the Kerry sign on your computer? if it dose not than I understand why you put back in but, if the pix is still morfing than it needs to be corrected before it gets put back in (152.163.100.14 | Talk)

Yo
Come on, now. Just because the details haven't come out yet doesn't mean Rice's contract with Satan doesn't exist.

Love, A Man Who Grants That Yeah, Okay, Maybe That Was Unnecessary (148.85.198.40 | Talk)

Wiki Junior Project
We are currently in the process of deciding what the first topics will be. We have already decided that the first humanities topic will be Countries of the World:South America. We need to decide what our first science topic will be. We already have plenty of pictures available for Big Cats, The Solar System and Human Flight. We're having a little vote to decide which one we should work on first. Please come to Wikijunior project first topics. Cheers! Theresa Knott (Not the skater) 08:00, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The List of Danish monarchs is the main page...
Nice to say I'm impolite, when it's not me going around and hunting IP addresses as somehow suspicious of vandalism by default. Learn to think before you accuse! 24.255.40.174 15:46, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Reuters
Done,on the Talk page.--ThomasK 17:45, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)

Wesleyan University
Hi Rdsmith4 - I'm confused about what just happened on the Wesleyan University and Wesleyan University (Connecticut) pages. I had been under the impression that the site had just been hit by a sock-puppet of User:Ranamim (through IP Address look up), who was adding the other "Wesleyan University" and making the original "Wesleyan University" into a disambig page in order to carry on a dirty war he had been waging against Wesleyan and Wesleyan University. If the change had been made by a good-faith user, I would have suggested that, since the Connecticut Wesleyan is far more better known, the other Wsleyan should be disambig'd within WU's own page (least surprise principle).

However, then you came and started finalizing the change. What I'm unsure about is whether this represents an endorsment of the change, or whether you were employing janitorial skills and kindly cleaning up new page additions.

If you were endorsing the change, could you let me know whether it would be better to leave it as it is, or have the other "Wesleyan" dismbig'd within Wesleyan University's own page? If you were being a good soul and cleaning up other people's messes (thanks!), I'm going to try to revert the changes made by User:Ranamim's sock-puppet. Thanks! --Asbestos 01:26, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Hi Rdsmith4 - thanks for getting abck to me so soon. I'm afraid I am going to need help on this, if it is at all possible, as I'm not sure how to change page titles without losing the talk pages. The sock-puppets have continued to wreck havoc on the Wesleyan pages even after your efforts, which have caused the talk pages to be lost, including adding some bizzare page named WesUniversity.
 * If it isn't asking too much, I'd like to try and get the pages Wesleyan and Wesleyan University back to where they were at abut 00:30 UTC, before any changes by 128.253.117.21 or User:John69 were made. Even if this user were acting in good faith, he would need to discuss his proposed changes in the talk pages before carrying out these edits. As he is clearly User:Ranamim though, with whom we have been engaged in numerous edit wars, these edits are not in good-faith.
 * Thank you very much for your time, and I'm sorry to have brought you into this. --Asbestos 01:41, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for your help. --Asbestos 01:50, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Woops, sorry to bug you again. Talk:Wesleyan University disappeard during these edits, and I'm not sure how to get it back. Is there any chance you could get it back to what it was earlier (or tell me what to do)? The page history is blank. Thanks again, --Asbestos 02:01, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * What can I do to get the Wesleyan University page protected to the version you changed it to? This vandalism has not stopped, and the page is back to where it was before you reverted it. Also, might I ask for recommendations as to what further steps I should take? I don't think that mediation with User:Ranamim will work, as we have had long, fruit-less discussions, and as his recent vandalisms have shown, but don't know if I can request arbitration without that step. Or is there something else altogether that I should do? Thanks again for your time, --Asbestos 02:10, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Could you please please intervene?? Could you please ask the other user to respect the policy of protected pages until a dispute is resolved? Thanks. -John69 (talk)
 * Are you taking Asbestos side or does it just seem that your comments on his page are too friendly? Anyway, could I ask you how to call for intervention from an UNBIASED party? Thanks. John69

 * Rdsmith4 - "Disambiguation pages serve a single purpose: To let the reader choose between different pages that might reside under the same title." This is directly from the link that you posted. How can you read it? There is clearly need for disambiguation pages on Wesleyan University! John69

 * "Primary topic" disambiguation: if one meaning is clearly predominant, it remains at "Mercury", the general title. The top of the article provides a link to the other meanings, or if there are a large number, to a page named "Mercury (disambiguation)". For example: the page Rome has a link at the top to a page named "Rome (disambiguation)" which lists other cities named Rome. The page Cream has a link to the page Cream (band) at the top.
 * Creating a "Primary topic" disambiguation can prove controversial due to differing ideas on which is the primary topic. When the discussion on the matter descends into edit wars and wasted time and effort, some editors feel it is better to resort to an "equal" disambiguation page. This opinion is not shared by all.
 * Rdsmith4, I would like to point your attention to the second paragraph again:
 * "Creating a "Primary topic" disambiguation can prove controversial due to differing ideas on which is the primary topic. When the discussion on the matter descends into edit wars and wasted time and effort, some editors feel it is better to resort to an "equal" disambiguation page. This opinion is not shared by all."
 * Also, in mediation cases, at least try to sound impartial. While Connecticut Wesleyan is certainly the better known, that's not true everywhere in the World. The technology advantage of US schools may bias your opinion simply because Wesleyan in the Phillipines is just as known but doesn't have the technology advantage to have as many links and webpages as the one in Connecticut. John69

Hi Rdsmith4 - Much thanks for your help. In answer to your question, my reasons for stating that User:John69 and User:Ranamim are one and the same are not rock solid, but I think highly likely:

Ranamim had been engaged in an argument with us (mainly with me, but also with User:Jmabel) that spanned over several articles, including Wesleyan, Wesleyan University and Methodism. Ranamim is currently a at Cornell University. The first time, a post was signed by "John", it was by user 128.253.117.21, stating that WU should be changed into a disambig page. After this, a user named John69 was created, who signed his posts "John" an turned WU into a Disambig page (pretty effectively for a new user). The IP address 128.253.117.21 can be shown to originate from Cornell University by looking it up on the site ARIN. I would suggest that either "John69" is a friend of User:Ranamim, or they are the same person. --Asbestos 02:59, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Nice catch
Thanks for noticing that on George W. Bush. I only got the last edit--I appreciate your keeping my edit. Best, [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 22:37, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)

Wesleyan disambiguation page
It is still an issue. I just don't have the time that other people do to respond. Thanks.

John69

Bang Pa-In
Thanks for that nice article. If you are planning to do more on Thailand maybe you should put Thailand-related topics notice board on you watchlist. And if you have more photos don't forget to upload them to commons - I put some of mine there already sorted by province, but there are still lots of place I haven't visited yet. And your version of the outlook tower looks better than mine :-( andy 08:57, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The Orthodox Free Reformed Church
This is a real Church. Leave the article alone please.(Dr D. Hughes, Secretary OFRC, Westhoughton, Lancs, UK). (195.92.168.178 | talk; OFRC Article | talk)

 * Google Search is no use because the OFRC has no need of a webpage as such. If you do not want the truth in this organ then be up-front about it. (My house has no webpage, but it is real!).

title: User talk:Rdsmith4/Archive 1


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