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Talk:Causes of sexual orientation/Archive 3

One
I think RK, Dmerrill and I may be able to work together on constructing a balanced article. Some points from old talk:

 * I intend to avoid mentioning Cohen's religious views. I am unaware of his political views. I intend to concentrate exclusively on his psychological views and on genetic research his website and book have brought to my attention.
 * I think some mention of religious views of causation are appropriate, but they should take a lot less space to describe than the genetic research and psychological theories.
 * My religion specifically disclaims eternal torment in Hell. In fact, that's one of the reasons I chose to join it.
 * Ed Poor

Two
Nice move. Causes of sexual orientation is a much better title.

I agree that this is a better title, but the article now needs to reflect this balance, since right now it just focuses on the causes of homosexuality. My point in creating an article on the causes of heterosexuality was to provide balance. This article should address what causes someone to be either heterosexual or homosexual, not just focus on what causes someone to be homosexual. -- Egern

A lot of this talk was really Debate as to what "normal" is. Please show how this is relevant to causation. Then come back to Talk Ed Poor

 * You also snipped the debate about use of the word "abnormal", which is a fighting word, not NPOV. But there's no surprise, since you are a man, and we all know that there are more women then men in the world, so you are therefore abnormal. GregLindahl

 * I won't argue that (my wife says pretty much the same thing :-) Ed Poor

You won't argue that "abnormal" is a fighting word, and not NPOV? Why, Ed, that's unusually perceptive of you. Normally you mostly ignore what I say, and only respond to my jokes. GregLindahl

Three
I don't know much about this field, so I don't want to get involved in improving the article. I just have a comment about this: "Scientists are now in agreement that homosexuality is not a freely made choice or "lifestyle" that someone decided to follow, and many religions are updating their theologies to conform with science." Is it true that all scientists, as this implies, believe that homosexuality is not a freely made choice? No scientists believe that homosexuality is, to any degree, a matter of choice? I find that difficult to believe, but maybe that's because I'm just ignorant about this stuff. --LMS

I'd like to remove 4 or 5 sentences from the middle of the article. They don't say much. Ed Poor

 * Ed, your approach to many of the entries you work on is disturbing. This is a case in point. Don't you realize that some of the sentences below are the main point of this entry?

 * This is largely because heterosexuality was considered the norm and homosexuality an aberration, although this view has been contested and weakened by the results of the research as well as political activism.

 * This is a minor point, and is not really necessary on a page about scientific views of how sexuality is determined, but it is not inappropriate to mention in one sentence.

 * There has also been a realization that any attempt at understanding the causes of sexual attraction to the same sex will be more successful if we understand the mechanisms that underlie sexual attraction per se, and more specifically what causes many people to feel sexual attraction primarily towards members of one particular sex.

 * Um, this is one of the major fields of scientific research! Why delete it?!?!

 * The traditional Judaeo-Christian view that homosexuality was caused by mingling with non-Israelite tribes, man's rebellious or fallen nature, or demonic temptation has given way to scientific explanations which regard homosexuality as normal and natural.

 * Scientists are now in agreement that homosexuality is not a freely made choice or "lifestyle" that someone decided to follow, and many religions are updating their theologies to conform with science.

 * The part about religion should be redirected to the appropriate Wikipedia entry on religion and homosexuality. But deleting it is not the answer.

 * The last 20 years have seen an explosion in the scientific knowledge available on the genetic, biological and psychological causes of homosexuality.

 * This is the entire point of this entry. If you delete it, you might as well delete everything else here. Isn't this obvious? RK

Four
Ed, it seems to me those sentences say quite a bit. What is needed is more information in addition to this, e.g., about the traditional Chinese and Indian views of homosexuality. The way forward is not to delete sentences that you simply disagree with. That way lies madness, and more importantly, less content! What's important is that we try to phrase things in such a way that everyone can agree with; and when that seems impossible, the way forward is to describe the controversy fairly, rather than try to force each other to make the article say something controversial. --LMS

 * This article is stubby. It basically asks a lot of questions and points the way to further article development. Dmerrill made a good start, but it's really far from finished. I'd like to add to it myself, but I fear my anti-homosexualty bias would combine with my lack of research knowledge to produce an even worse article than the stub. So, I merely defined sexual orientation is a separate article. Would someone else please refine the "causes of" article? --Ed Poor

Five
Following moved out from end of article:

'''This entry is only about causal theories. It is not for discussing issues of morality, ethics, human rights, religion, etc. This is not a place to make a point about supposed "sins."'''

Genetic studies

Twin Studies

Biological Studies not strictly dealing with genetics

Interplay of the environment and the biological make-up of the individual. (Nature vs. nurture)

Various psychological views will also be examined.

A fascintating topic, of course.

Surely the point has been made, by researchers, that the fact that gay people are not aware of having chosen to be gay (any more than heterosexuals are aware of having chosen to be heterosexual) surely does by itself not imply that homosexuality is biological? Are those the only two possibilities? Particularly in this day and age, what could be more obvious than that cultural factors can make someone with a predisposition of some sort to homosexuality to become a self-conscious and practicing homosexual? Surely gay activists would agree with that, because they abhor the fact that some people "with a predisposition of some sort to homosexuality" might be shoehorned by a heterosexual-dominated culture into a heterosexual mold? I mean, wouldn't that be why some gay activists have wanted the school curriculums to be changed, so that more people who otherwise wouldn't become homosexual will feel freer to become self-conscious, practicing homosexuals, and less pressure to become heterosexual (or to hide their homosexuality, even from themselves--I guess that's what they say, eh)?

I'm just stating what seems obvious to me; I hope someone with more expertise in this area will help to change the article so that it is a little more sophisticated in this way. On such a sensitive topic as this, I do not want to pretend to be able to work directly on the article reliably! --LMS

 * Yes, but that's only part of the whole story. The primary arguments for school curriculum about homosexuality are 1) it's intellectually dishonest to pretend it doesn't exist, and 2) homophobia is a social problem that needs to be dealt with early and directly. The two main reasons for 2) are a) that it's considered the reason why gay teenagers commit suicide several times more often than their straight counterparts, and, b) as you said, it drives people into the closet. --Dmerrill

 * Those two points are the primarily arguments given -- but there may be a hidden agenda as well: to normalize homosexuality and make it a permanent accepted part of society, a goal I oppose. Ed Poor

Six
Unlike LMS, whose reticence is due to his professed lack of knowleged in this area, I know so much about the subject that I am convinced of the point of view opposite to gay rights; hence, I shall make sure I use the talk pages to avoid making peremptory deletes or edits. I rely on Demerrill to keep me straight (pun intentional), or failing that LMS can tell me to butt out. Hear that, Larry? You have the authority. Ed Poor

 * Oh do you now (know so much about the subject you are convinced of a view opposing gay rights)? Well please, bless us here with your abundent knowledge (yes this is bitchy sarcasim). Lestatdelc 18:16, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)

There is at least one way I can think of that might cause people be predisposed towards homosexuality (or heterosexuality) that has nothing to do with genetics, but which I presume would still be considered "biological", and that is the possibility of something happening in the womb. This article doesn't really address that question, and I don't know what the research is or the body of opinion is on that aspect of the question anyway.

 * A very great deal is known about this subject. You could start with Gay, Straight, and In-Between by John Money. Ann Fausto-Sterling has a couple of good books out, too. P0M 19:51, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I heard that the ancient greeks attitude towards homosexuality wasnt as tolerant as it is often believed to be, more along the lines of beeing accepted in some circumstances but not in general, any further infos of the validness of this anyone?

 * It was very well accepted, but only in limited forms -- see homosexuality for a discussion. --Dmerrill

Seven
I'm not sure how accurate the final part about "conscious choice" is. To the best of my knowledge (and if I knew more I'd rewrite that part of the article), there are very few, even among relligious social conservatives, who claim the orientation as opposed to behavior is a conscious choice. I've heard it compared more often to something like alcoholism, something that may not be a conscious choice and that may have a variety of causes. But whether one chooses to do anything about it (one way or the other) is a choice, or so I believe they'd say.

 * Some people, primarily Christians and most often fundamentalist, believe that a person can change their sexual orientation if they choose to. They operate programs, some of them modelled on 12-step programs, to help people change from homosexuality to heterosexuality.

The above paragraph should be removed or changed radically. I had edited it (perhaps too hastily) this week, but now I realize it's out of place entirely.

No one is seriously saying that a person just up and decides one day, "I think I'll become gay." Perhaps some gay rights activists claim that fundamentalist think so, but I do not recall reading anywhere -- even on the most "homophobic" (i.e., openly hostile and admittedly hostile) anti-gay website -- that any Christian has said that anyone consciously chose to become homosexual.

I have read only -- and this is a crucial distinction, one made in the article itself -- that some persons have chosen to engage in homosexual acts.

If there is anyone who says that having sex with the same or opposite sex causes one's sexual orientation to shift, I'd like to know about it, as in: spokesman A of group B believes C. Otherwise, I vote for deletion of the above paragraph. I'll check back Monday. Thanks in advance for everyone's objectivity and NPOV dedication. Ed Poor, Friday, April 19, 2002

 * Oh?

 * Your assertion that nobody is seriously suggesting homosexuality is a conscious choice seems to not be under the umbrella of your vast knowledge of the subject. "If homosexuality is not inheritable, is not an inborn predetermination, not an evolutionary misfire bent on extinguishing itself, then it must involve choice .  In order to test whether any choice is involved, one needs only to urge a homosexual to pursue corrective therapy and/or religious help toward changing his orientation.   We know the vast majority refuse.  They want to remain homosexual.  Undoubtedly that is their choice .   No one who resists all possible means for changing his condition can coherently claim that his condition is not his choice."" - Richard J. Rolwing (a retired theologian and often quoted "source" of reparative therapy proponents)

 * The "Assemblies of God" denomination of the Pentecostal church for example believes Homosexuality is a conscious choice; a lifestyle; the implication being that an adult can change their sexual orientation. They are most assuredly not alone in many of the more "conservative" denominations of the Christian faith.

 * Furthermore, and more to the point of the actual issue at hand, many of the so-called "reparative therapy" outfits and there affiliated religious groups who promote them often in their literature expressly denote that homosexuality is a conscious choice. For example, here is what Joseph Nicolosi the founder of NARTH has to say about it: "Yet not to be gay is as much a decision and a conscious choice about one's self-identity as deciding to be gay." Lestatdelc 18:16, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)

 * The paragraph you're objecting to doesn't claim that anyone says that 'having sex with the same or opposite sex causes one's sexual orientation to shift', it says that some groups claim that people can change their sexual orientation if they choose to. The paragraph is entirely true as it stands. If you need a reference, Homosexuals Anonymous is one such group . Matthew Woodcraft

Thanks for the HA reference. I will add it to the reparative therapy article.

I think the term sexual orientation was created by gay rights advocates to co-opt the debate about the morality of homosexuality. Their argunment is that homosexuality ought not to be criticized. This argument is supported by the premises (a) homosexuality isn't immoral and/or (b) it's impossible to change anyway. (Indeed, the presumed impossibility of changing is often used as support the first premise, on the view that an unchangeable attribute shouldn't be viewed as immoral.)

 * I think that the term "sexual orientation" developed because all sorts of people find it useufl. I think Gays talk about their own sexuality in terms of their "orientation" because it fits in witht heir experiences.  But your argument makes no sense to me.  You assume that innate orientation removes morality as an issue, and cannot be changed.  Neither of these are correct.

 * First, a person may be born a sociopath or psychopath, or certainly become one at an early age. This does not mean that when they torture animals including humans there is no moral issue, or that it is a good thing.  Similarly, someone may be born with sickle-cell anemia or tay-sachs diseas.  That they are born with it does not make it a good thing.

 * Second, just becuase something is born and innate does not mean it cannot be changed. I have, no doubt for genetic reasons, poor eye-sight, but I can correct for that with glasses.  My mother is short, but can reach tall shelves bbecause of a step-ladder.  Some people are born with one color hair and dye it.  The number of things we are born with and that are genetic and natural, but that can be changed, is countless.

 * Third, Those of us who believe that homosexuality is moral do so not because it is innate (whether it is or not) but because it can be a very important part of a consensual, pleasurable, spiritual, meaningful relationship and life. These (or some of these) may not be moral criteria to you, but they are to others.  Even if people were gay entirely by choice, being gay would still be moral.

 * fourth, even if people could change being gay does not mean that they would want to, would, or should. Of course, given how hard it is to be gay in most parts of the US today, I wouldn't be surprised if someone wanted to change their sexual orientation.  But then again, I am Jewish which has made me the target of anti-semitism and still I refuse to change (even though I can); I bet there are lots of people who have been targets of different forms of discrimination who nevertheless would not change even if they could easily.

 * In short, I think that you have offered an irrelevant non-sequitor. Homosexuality in and of itself should not be criticized for three reasons only, that have nothing to do with the reasons you present: there is nothing intrinsically wrong with it; it can be wonderful; and homosexuals have been targets of so much discrimination in the past it behooves a moral society to be especially sensitive right now.  SR

Groups like Homosexuals Anonymous, NARTH, and Richard Cohen's International Healing Foundation dispute the premise that homosexuality is unchangeable. If society discovers that homosexuality is actually changeable, that takes away the greater ground of the gay rights argument against criticizing homosexuality. If homosexuality is not unchangeable and inherent (like skin color and the shape of facial features), then it is subject to the will. Except for those who reject the concept of morality altogether, desires and acts subject to human will constitute the field of morality, so the focus of the debate would change considerably.

Our challenge in writing 'pedia articles relating to homosexuality is to maintain the NPOV without necessarily buying into spurious anti-morality arguments. Advocacy for or against morality, or any other point of view for that matter, must be labelled as advocacy and (preferably) attributed to a source. As in, "Gay rights advocates generally maintain that..." or "Many Christians, especially fundamentalists, believe that..."

Ed Poor, Monday, April 22, 2002

Eight
Reading through this article, I still think it's highly POV. Primarly, it makes no discussion of the motivations for undertaking this work. Few scientists see any merit or benefit to the world in researching 'causes of sexual orientation' or even if such work is feasible. Many of those who do openly court the publicity. Here are some more of my issues with it:

 * Usually, research on sexual orientation is focused on causes of homosexuality. This is largely because heterosexuality has traditionally been considered "normal" and homosexuality an aberration, although this view has been contested and weakened by the results of the research as well as political activism.

AFAIK, scientists make no prior claim as to whether or not homosexuality is 'normal'. I appreciate the sentiment, but I still don't understand what an article about causes of sexual orientation is doing discussing whether homosexuality is normal or not. Is this a required element of this article?

 * Some popular reports on research, published in a Newsweek cover article entitled "Gay Gene?" had suggested that there was a genetic basis for homosexuality which make people more likely to become homosexual. These reports were later repudiated by the researchers, who said that their work had been misconstrued, and Newsweek printed a retraction on an inside page.

Simply because Newsweek had to publish an apology does not automatically dismiss the concept of a 'gay gene', as this paragraph suggests. My understanding is that, while some of the research does not prove the existence of a gay gene (which is what many claimed), it does actually lend credence to the idea that the causes of sexual orientation has a genetic component. This is discussed more fully in the genetic basis for homosexuality article and should be left there.

Similarly, the 'Psychological and Sociological Factors' attributes 'research' from the International Healing Foundation, without mentioning the IHF is a religious organisation, or that such ideas are widely dismissed by the psychiatric and pschological communities. Similarly, why do fringe views like this get first mention in this part of the article?

--Axon

Nine
-
 * Many other biological factors might be involved. The following topics need to be elucidated in this entry, with references to important scientific and medical journal articles, and books which summarize said articles.

Is this intended to be a "stub"? Does it mean that "the following topics" (which following topics) are going to be expanded sometime? Maybe other people will not find these words puzzling. Patrick0Moran 20:14, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

-

This article states:
 * Richard Cohen of the International Healing Foundation claims to have found a constellation of causal factors, primarily non-genetic.

I think this statement must not convey the writer's meaning -- either that or Cohen excludes all of the more likely biological and experiential but includes the one that has the least evidence and the least acceptance among serious researchers. If Cohen does support this unlikely position, it would be good to adduce some evidence. Patrick0Moran 22:27, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

In his book, Cohen lists 10 possible factors. Genetics is only one of them. Most of the others are emotional and experiential, leading to his conclusions that "No one is born with same-sex attractions" and that "change is possible". If you are interested, you can check out Cohen's http://www.gaytostraight.org website for further info.

 * In that case, shouldn't the Wikipedia article reflect that he excludes all but the straw man? Patrick0Moran 18:10, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Ten
About reproductive disadvantage of homosexuality: Sorry I did not explain the sentence I added but I'm new to this. That homosexuality in any species (not just humans) is not favourable for the reproduction of that species is quite self evident. Unless it can be shown that there are other advantages confered by homosexuality that outweight the disadvantages. If homosexuality is inherited through the genes, that means that the homosexual parent would have to reproduce in order to transfer such genes to the next generation. However, the gene itself will not survive a few generations because of the reproductive disadvantage. Minkwe Sat Apr 10 21:29:25 CEST 2004

[P0M:] I think we need to consider several possibilities: (0) Homosexuality/heterosexuality (despite what ideology says) is not a black-and-white distinction, so it's a question of the threshold levels that have to be met before the homosexual behavior is manifested. (1) whatever the genetic factors involved, they may be recessive. (Hemophilia is definitely disadvantageous, but it persists nonetheless.) (2) the genetic factors that bias one towards homosexuality may be multiple and therefore not necessarily passed down as a group. (One can inherit genetic characteristics from all four grandparents because of a mechanism called "crossover".) (3) there may be advantages to the species that do not necessarily benefit individuals. (A breeding population that includes individuals that themselves have harder lives may survive better than a population that does not include these individuals. A breeding population that produces some number of young males who rove the periphery of the group territory and defend against predators may survive better than a group without these "rogues" or "guards." The roving guards may frequently fail to breed because they are killed by predators, but their siblings may pass the same genes that made them guards. P0M 21:16, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[Minkwe] (0,2) Agreed, the important point here is that what ever the nature, the result is an individual that is less prone to reproduce than the others in the population. Therefore genetic transfer potential of those factors are reduced every generation. They are still destined for elimination eventually. Do we agree that a reproductive disadvantage exists?

 * [P0M:] A "gay gene" or a constellation of "gay-favorable genes", if they actually exist, have not been eliminated after a few thousands or tens of thousands of years. Whether one or many, the "gay gene(s)" would be alleles of genes that occur in everybody. It doesn't seem that they are dominant genes, else there would be a much higher incidence of siblings who are gay. So a carrier of one copy of a "gay gene" could pass it down. If more than one gene is involved, having only one of them might not do anything to reproductive behavior. Unless the genes are located on the Y chromosome, they could be passed down on the female side as well as the male side of any family. Females in many societies have little to say about whether they marry and whether they reproduce. (Hopefully that is changing fairly rapidly.) To be eliminated in any quick and sure way, a gene has to be so deadly that the bearer dies before s/he can reproduce. The gay person who has two copies of recessive genes and so does not reproduce or even dies before reproducing can have siblings who carry only one copy of the gene(s) and so reproduce quite normally. Also, whether one behaves in a "gay" way is a threshold phenomenon. People who may be predominantly gay in their orientation may marry and father several children. Some never leave a heterosexual lifestyle. Some carry on a gay lifestyle on the side. Some divorce, frequently after their children reach maturity. Also, as with sickle-cell anemia, there may be advantages bestowed on the reproductive success of family members -- gene carriers if not gene expressors.

 * [Minkwe:] I think you are over-analysing the situation. Assuming that homosexuality is caused by genetic factors, the question is: Is there are reproductive disadvantage for the transfer of homosexual triats (irrespective of the dominance, or recessiveness of such traits or on which chromosome they are situated)? My point is that there is. The reason is simple. If we agree that a homosexual individual(phenotype) is less likely to reproduce than a heterosexual individual then there is a reproductive disadvantage. If that homosexual individual does not reproduce then you have one less person that carries those genetic factors (irrespective of wether they are single genes or combinations, and irrespective of what chromosome they are on) that will transfer those genetic factors to their offspring. Unless, those genetic factors also confer a reproductive advantage that is of the same magnitude as the disadvantage. Such an advantage may exist. I don't know of any that has been mentioned yet but it doesn't rule out that the disadvantage exists.

[Minkwe] (1) True, you can say the same of any genetically inherited disease (Sickled-cell anemia). However, these have no direct bearing on the reproductive capacity of the species. Indirectly you argue that that victims may die before they can reproduce but the indirect effect is less potent that the direct effect. In the case of Sickled-cell anemia, it has persisted only because it offers other advantages with respect to protection against malaria which is lethal to the species in an acute manner. For hemophilia, it is very well known why it persisted in Europe (In-breeding among royals). In any case, this encroaches on the "normal" vs "abnormal" debate which I also think is relevant.

 * [P0M:] It appears that the gene for sickle-cell anemia actually spreads beyond the community in which it is originally found to other populations that are challenged by malaria. As soon as one traveller brings the gene to a new place that has malaria anybody who ends up with one copy of the gene has improved chances to survive and to reproduce.

 * [P0M:] Hemophilia does not persist in Europe because of inbreeding among royals. If I have one copy of the gene that I got from grandpa and my cousin has one copy of the gene that she got from grandpa and we marry and reproduce, there is a fairly good chance that some of our children get two copies and manifest the disease. If I marry somebody from outside there is relatively little chance that she is a carrier.

 * [Minkwe:] The fact that royals inter-married with each other (a kind of in-breeding) was the main cause of its initial spread. Also, Hemophilia is only a few hundred years old so we can't base its persistence today on purely genetic factors. If hemophilia does have a reproductive disadvantage, then it is being slowly wiped out. This can be verified by cellular automata.

 * [P0M:] What you say above is not true. See, for instance, http://www.wfh.org/ShowDoc.asp?Rubrique=28&Document=335 Sometimes hemophilis appears as the result of a mutation rather than being transmitted from parents, so it most likely was always a problem. P0M 22:25, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * [P0M:] As for "encroaching" on the normal vs. abnormal debate, I think you have the cart before the horse. People learned early on that inbreeding causes bad traits to manifest. So it becomes a rule enforced by law, religion, and social opprobrium that close relatives should not mate. Sometimes these rules get a little crazy. For instance, in traditional Chinese society it is forbidden by custom to marry anybody with the same surname. One might have to trace the family connection back a thousand years or more to find a common ancestor, but it is still forbidden. But it is o.k. to marry a much closer relative who happens to have a different surname.

 * [Minkwe:] I think you missed my point here: People learned early on that inbreeding causes bad traits to manifest. How do you know what trait is bad? It can be a cultural or political or religious reason. Since this is a scientific discussion, bad vs good or normal vs abnormal have to be looked at from a scientific perspective as well. A trait that has a disadvantage to the species is bad and one that has an advantage is good. Same goes for normal. A normal trait is one that does not confer a disadvantage to the species. True, some of the cultural reasons are chosen because of the underlying scientific reasons like the one you mentioned. It is readily accepted that blue-eyes is normal but it is also acknowledged that genetic diseases like hemophilia are abnormal. Even if a genetic cause for homosexuality is identified, it doesn't rule out that it may be abnormal for the same reasons that genetic diseases like hemophilia and sickled cell are abnormal.

 * [P0M:] If your children are born with some debilitating condition, you know that something is wrong. Hemophilia would be an instance of this kind of thing. P0M 22:25, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * [P0M:] What is the advantage of lactose intolerance (the early cessation of production of lactase)? It would seem to have only disadvantages, yet it persists.

 * [Minkwe:] You are assuming that lactose intolerance is a genetic disorder. Besides, what has lactose intolerance got to do with reproduction. Genes are transfered through reproduction not digestion of milk.

[P0M:](3) there may be advantages to the species that do not necessarily benefit individuals. (A breeding population that includes individuals that themselves have harder lives may survive better than a population that does not include these individuals. A breeding population that produces some number of young males who rove the periphery of the group territory and defend against predators may survive better than a group without these "rogues" or "guards." The roving guards may frequently fail to breed because they are killed by predators, but their siblings may pass the same genes that made them guards.

[Minkwe] (3) The reproductive disadvantage mentioned above is both for the species and the individual. Your "guards" analogy is true but it's applicability to homosexuality remains to be seen. Can you think of an advantage conferred on the species by homosexuality? In any case, if you agree that there is a reproductive disadvantage, I think it should be mentioned in the article. You can also mention any reproductive advantages that you can think of. Minkwe Sun Apr 11 09:18:19 CEST 2004

 * [P0M:] About ten years ago I was in Washington, D.C., and attended a talk given by a researcher doing genetics work on whether there is a "gay gene." It was federal research, I think it was for the National Institute for Mental Health (NIMH). I don't know where that research stands today, but the researcher said that the genetic commonalities she was finding among gays were not what you would expect for a "gay gene," and in fact were generally manifestations of a greater than ordinary ability to deal with atypical situations, to be creative, to not be hindered by preconceptions (the "standard operating procedure" being called upon to try to meet a novel and perhaps deadly challenge to the community). The same tendency to think, e.g., "Everybody hates maggots, but maybe that is just the thing to prevent gangrene on the battlefield" may also let the person say, "Everybody says males are attracted by females and vice-versa, and that it is psychologically abnormal to love somebody of the same sex, but I see that some of my same-sex friends feel affection for each other, get aroused, get fearful, and then the whole thing seems to go away. Maybe it doesn't have to be that way." In other words, these people may relate according to where their sexual and affectional thresholds actually are rather than letting themselves be controlled by society. The same kind of person, in China, might say, "So what if we share the same surname. She loves me and I love her. We're getting married and to hell with what the local tongue-waggers say about it." P0M 15:43, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * [Minkwe:] Similarly, an HIV positive individual may say "I feel like having unprotected sex. to hell with anybody else that thinks I shouldn't". A murderer feels like murdering, a pedophile feels like doing what they do.  Not that I equate being homosexual to murdering or being a pedophile. My point being that Feelings/desire is never a justification of anything. For the same reason the phrase sexual orientation by itself is more comparable to things like food preference, favoratie color than blue-eyes or red-hair or negro. If homosexuality is abnormal as I think it is, does that imply prejudice against homosexual individuals? If so, then we should classify every disease as normal in order not to hurt the feelings of the patients. In addition IF homosexuality is a disease (genetic or psychological), would we be doing service to those suffering from it by recognising it as such and seeking for remedies or will be they be better served by political correctness? Before I'm pulled into a political debate,  I don't think this is relevant to the scientific discussion.

Minkwe Sun Apr 11 20:50:56 CEST 2004

Eleven

 * Studies of homosexual identical twins suggest that when one twin is homosexual that there is a 40 to 60 percent chance that the other twin will also be homosexual. In fraternal twins the figure is 15 to 30 percent.

Is there anything definite about whether the researchers studying twins raised apart, or together? I think this could make a difference, so it has a bearing on the matter. --Uncle Ed 15:11, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

 * [P0M:] Whoever put the original sentence in should cite their source of information so that Ed Poor's question can be more easily answered. Meanwhile, consider that if twins seem more likely than other siblings to both be gay, that could be because they were raised under nearly identical conditions in the home. But if the twins are separated at birth, raised in different kinds of families, and still are more likely to both be gay than other siblings, that would point more strongly to a genetic component. P0M 15:54, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * [P0M:] Makes sense. John Money and others regard early socialization and other environmental conditions as forces that can exert a profound influence. In view of that, the studies of fraternal twins should also control this factor since fraternal twins would get the same early environment unless they were split up at birth. Patrick0Moran 18:16, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Anything that makes sense, should go into the article. Twin studies, Cohen's views, whatever -- as long as it's relevant. (I just don't know for sure whether Cohen 100% excludes genetics as a factor, so I won't endorse your characterization of his views. All I know for sure is, he excludes genetics as an overriding factor. --Uncle Ed 18:26, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Cut from article intro:

 * This view has been contested and weakened by the results of the research as well as by political activism.

I only cut this because the article doesn't mention anything about the results of the research contesting or weakening the POV that heterosexuality is normal.

Maybe what we should have instead is a paragraph or two explaining WHY people are inquiring into "causes" of homosexuality. I daresay it's because the behavior is controversial, with opposing camps calling it "immoral" or "none of your business".

If homosexuality is innate or unchangeable, then (advocates argue) it doesn't make sense to call it "immoral". One might as well hold a person accountable for the color of their skin.

If homosexuality is "curable", however, then the above argument loses strength. I might be born greedy, clumsy, ignorant; but I can make myself become generous, skilful, knowledgeable. (This is a HUGE issue, don't think I'm trying to be simplistic: see nature-nurture controversy). --Uncle Ed 18:24, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[P0M:] It sounds to me as though you are opposing your own point of view -- which I take to be that homosexuality is immoral -- to the view of others who would deny that it is immoral. At the top of this talk page you gave another indication of your point of view. Would it not be better to examine carefully the objective information available pertaining to the "causes of sexual orientation"? P0M 02:00, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[P0M:] I had another look at the passage Ed Poor changed. What can be the justification for removing a statement that is informative and true? I've very much tempted to revert except that I am sick of edit wars. For the future, would it not have been better to discuss this change on the talk page before making what was sure to be a controversial change? P0M 02:04, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * I will put the text back verbatim, merely on your say-so, Patrick. I am sick of edit wars, too.

 * But my preference is for intoductory material which is supported or followed-up by text later on in the article.

 * Can we add a little bit about the results of the research? All I've read indicates that the resarch has been utterly inconclusive. I can't see how inconclusive research can get anybody to change their minds. Perhaps we should could say:

 * Despite the inconclusive nature of the resarch results, political activism has weakened the view, etc.

--Uncle Ed 13:20, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Questions of Evidence
[P0M:] The following sentence seems plausible, but can anyone produce evidence to support the claim?
 * This view [regarding the retrainability of homosexuals] is especially held by religious groups or groups connected to them.

P0M 00:08, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The section on homosexuality as a conscious choice mentions that besides research from politically motivated groups, there is no corroborating evidence for conscious choice being a factor. However, I think it is important for NPOV to mention that very little scientific research at all focuses on conscious choice; in fact, given that a large number of scientists dismiss free will entirely, we can't expect there to be much research in this area. In any case, the fact there is no evidence is not in and of itself counter-evidence, much as flawed early studies on genetic factors are not counter-evidence of those factors. I think something needs to be added to the article, although I'm quite sure I am not the one to do it in an NPOV manner. CyborgTosser

§ It may be relevant that many homosexuals have consciously "chosen" to be other than they are yet that has not produced any results for them. (At least there are no autobiographical accounts of successful "decisions for heterosexuality" that I know of.) If we are writing an article on anthrax disease in sheep, would it be relevant to mention that no known studies have actually investigated the hypothesis that playing bagpipe music to them will cure their disease? Ordinarily, one does not investigate a hypothesis that does not show much promise of panning out. The burden of proof in cases of "unlikely" hypotheses like the prion hypothesis has always been on the people who put those hypotheses forth. Nobody feels obligated to spend money and time to check out every hypothesis that somebody or other puts forth. (Even though some of them, like prion, turn out to be right.) If there were a substantial amount of evidence, even anecdotal evidence, that choices made were relevant then there might be more research. But, to the contrary, the fruitless question usually asked by parents and homosexuals who are not happy with that status is generally, "Where did I go wrong?" Nobody that I know has come out with convincing answers to this question. At most, some people have blamed themselves for their first homosexual experiences that "turned them queer", and/or other people have blamed them for those experiments. However, I believe it is well established from studies that have been done that many people experiment with homosexual relations and do not find them rewarding enough to continue with them. P0M 03:29, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The hypothesis that bagpipe playing would cure anthrax is one that no reasonable person would consider a priori. I realize the fact that this analogy doesn't fit doesn't invalidate your argument. But the point I am trying to make is that the fact that there is little to no scientific evidence for or against conscious choice as a factor is more than likely due to the fact that such discussions probably don't belong in the realm of science. You can't have your metaphysical cake and eat it too. If conscious choice is to be dismissed as unscientific, then it doesn't belong here at all. Stating, in the context of scientific evidence regarding other probable causes, that there is no evidence for conscious choice is non-NPOV. The claim is that conscious choice could be considered scientifically, but should now be dismissed for lack of evidence, and I think that is wrong. CyborgTosser


text:
NForce4

The nForce4 is a motherboard chipset released by Nvidia in October 2004. The chipset supports AMD 64-bit processors (Socket 939, Socket AM2 and Socket 754) and Intel Pentium 4 LGA 775 processors.

nForce4/nForce4-4x
nForce4 is the second evolution of the Media Communications Processor (MCP) and incorporates both Northbridge and Southbridge on a single die (the first was nForce3).

The Socket 754 version of the board has the HyperTransport link clocked to 800 MHz (6.4 GB/s transfer rate). Motherboards based on early revisions are mostly referred to as "nForce4-4x" (relating with their ability to handle HT speeds of 4x).

 * Support for up to 20 PCI Express (PCIe) lanes (up to 38-40 lanes for the nForce4 SLI x16). Reference boards are set up with one x16 slot and three x1 slots, leaving 1 lane unused.
 * Support for up to 10 USB 2.0 ports.
 * Support for 4 SATA and 4 PATA drives, which can be linked together in any combination of SATA and PATA to form a RAID 0, 1, or 0+1.
 * Nvidia RAID Morphing, which allows conversion from one RAID type to another on the fly.
 * Nvidia nTune, a tool for easy overclocking and timing configurations.
 * Full 1000 MHz speed on HyperTransport (8 GB/s transfer rate).
 * Eight-channel AC'97 audio.
 * Onboard Gigabit Ethernet.
 * Nvidia ActiveArmor, an onboard firewall solution. (Not available on regular nForce 4)
 * Does not support Windows 98 or Windows Me.

nForce4 Ultra
The Ultra version contains all of the features of the nForce4-4x version with the addition of:
 * Hardware processing for the ActiveArmor to reduce CPU load.
 * Serial ATA 3 Gbit/s interface with 300 MB/s transfer speeds for SATA 3 Gbit/s drives.

Enthusiasts discovered early after the release of nForce4 Ultra that the chipset was identical to nForce4 SLI other than a single resistor on the chip package itself. By modifying this resistor as the SLI is configured, an Ultra can be turned into an SLI.

nForce4 SLI
The SLI version has all the features of the Ultra version, in addition to SLI (Scalable Link Interface). This interface allows two video cards to be connected to produce a single output. This can theoretically double framerates by splitting work between the two GPUs.

On a standard (non x16) nForce4 SLI motherboard, the system can be configured to provide an x16 slot for one graphics board or twin x8 slots for the SLI configuration. A jumper bank must be altered to set these options.

nForce4 SLI Intel Edition
Unlike its AMD Athlon 64 sibling, the Intel Edition is an older chipset as it has both a northbridge and southbridge. As with the older nForce2 chipsets, Nvidia calls the northbridge the "System Platform Processor" (SPP) and the southbridge the "Media and Communications Processor" (MCP). This change in design was necessitated because, unlike the Athlon 64/Opteron, the Pentium 4 does not have an on-board memory controller thus requiring Nvidia to include one in the chipset like in older nForce2. In addition to supporting Pentium 4 processors (with up to a 1066 MHz FSB) the chipset includes support for DDR2 SDRAM. Also like Nvidia's older chipsets, the MCP and SPP communicate through a Hypertransport link, in this case only at (1.6 GB/s. transfer rate) Apart from these differences, the nForce4 SLI Intel Edition shares the same features as the regular nForce4 SLI.

An oddity of the Intel Edition is the fact that while it works with the Pentium D 830 (3.0 GHz) and 840 (3.2 GHz), as well as the Extreme Edition of the 840, it does not work with the Pentium D 820 (2.8 GHz) because the 820 has a much lower current draw than the 830 and 840. Attempting to boot an Intel Edition board with an 820 will cause it to shut down so as to avoid damaging the processor. Nvidia have stated that they do not consider the 820 to be an enthusiast (because it is older) processor, and as such will not be enabling support for it. However, the nForce4 SLI X16 supports it.

nForce4 SLI x16
The nForce4 SLI x16 has similar features to the nForce4 SLI, except it now provides 16 PCI-Express lanes to both graphics cards in an SLI configuration (as opposed to only 8 lanes per graphics card with the original SLI chipset). This is the only version of the nForce4 for AMD processors that has a separate northbridge and southbridge. It comprises the existing nForce4 MCP for the southbridge and a new AMD nForce4 System Platform Processor (SPP). The two chips are connected via the HyperTransport link. This solution provides 38 PCI-Express lanes in total, and can be divided over 7 slots. It is also available for Intel processors, whereby it provides 40 PCI-Express lanes, which can be divided over 9 slots.

nForce400/405/410/430
The nForce400/405/410/430 refer to nForce4 based southbridges which are used together with GeForce 6100/6150 series northbridges to form a chipset with integrated graphics. The combination is a follow-up to the popular nForce2 IGP chipset.

Driver Availability
Nvidia offers nForce4 chipset driver downloads for NT-based Windows versions from 2000 up to and including Vista in the "Legacy" product type category on their download page. However, there is no official support for Windows 7 or newer, but Windows 7 has a built-in driver for the nForce 6 chipset, which is very similar.

Flaws
Nvidia's nForce4 chipset suffers from several unresolved issues.

The ActiveArmor hardware firewall is nearly non-functional, with many unsolved bugs and potentially serious instability issues. Installing ActiveArmor can cause BSODs for users of certain software, especially peer-to-peer file sharing applications. Some programs, such as μTorrent, go so far as to have warning messages about using Nvidia's firewall in combination with their software. ActiveArmor also has a high probability of causing corruption of file downloads. Nvidia has been unable to solve these issues and points to hardware bugs within the chipset itself, problems which they are unable to work around.

There have also been data corruption issues associated with certain SATA 3 Gbit/s hard drives. The issues can often be resolved with a firmware update for the hard drive from the manufacturer.

The nForce4 chipset has also been blamed for issues with PCI cards, relating to Nvidia's implementation of the PCI bus. RME Audio, a maker of professional audio equipment, has stated that the latency of the PCI bus is unreliable and that the chipset's PCI Express interface can "hog" system data transfer resources when intense video card usage is occurring. This has the effect of causing audible pops and clicks with PCI sound cards. Gamers have noticed this effect, especially with Creative's Sound Blaster X-Fi and Sound Blaster Audigy 2 sound cards. Compatibility issues between these sound cards and nForce4 motherboards have been ongoing, including reports of serious and irreversible damage to crucial motherboard components. Driver updates were also found to be unsuccessful. Latency issues are more readily apparent with sound cards than other addon cards because of the direct user feedback the audio problems demonstrate.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: NForce4


text:
User:Xsarpedonx

Is what happens when someone is using my name, Sarpedon.

title: User:Xsarpedonx


text:
User talk:0101TRANc

Hi TRANc. Nice job on the Liang Qichao article, and welcome to Wikipedia. A few links you might find helpful:

 * Peruse Welcome, newcomers and associated pages, such as
 * How to edit a page
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 * You can experiment in the Sandbox.
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 * If you have any questions, see Help, or you can a question at the Help desk.

Some other links you might want to take a look at:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian.

-spencer195 06:51, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

File:KangYouWei.jpg needs authorship information
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File:KangYouWei.jpg missing description details
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title: User talk:0101TRANc


text:
User talk:0101TSANGyk

Hi TSANGyk. Nice job on the Lu Yuegang article, and welcome to Wikipedia. A few links you might find helpful:

 * Peruse Welcome, newcomers and associated pages, such as
 * How to edit a page
 * How to write a great article
 * Naming conventions
 * Manual of Style
 * You can experiment in the Sandbox.
 * Sign talk page entries with ~ ~ ~ ~, which is automatically converted to a name and date.
 * If you have any questions, see Help, or you can a question at the Help desk.

Some other links you might want to take a look at:

 * Manual of Style for China-related articles
 * Naming conventions (Chinese)
 * History standards for China-related articles
 * China-related topics notice board

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian.

-spencer195 06:52, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:0101TSANGyk


text:
Scalable Link Interface

Scalable Link Interface (SLI) is the brand name for a now discontinued multi-GPU technology developed by Nvidia for linking two or more video cards together to produce a single output. SLI is a parallel processing algorithm for computer graphics, meant to increase the available processing power.

The initialism SLI was first used by 3dfx for Scan-Line Interleave, which was introduced to the consumer market in 1998 and used in the Voodoo2 line of video cards. After buying out 3dfx, Nvidia acquired the technology but did not use it. Nvidia later reintroduced the SLI name in 2004 and intended for it to be used in modern computer systems based on the PCI Express (PCIe) bus; however, the technology behind the name SLI has changed dramatically.

Implementation
SLI allows two, three, or four graphics processing units (GPUs) to share the workload when rendering real-time 3D computer graphics. Ideally, identical GPUs are installed on the motherboard that contains enough PCI Express slots, set up in a master–slave configuration. All graphics cards are given an equal workload to render, but the final output of each card is sent to the master card via a connector called the SLI bridge. For example, in a two graphics card setup, the master works on the top half of the scene, the slave the bottom half. Once the slave is done, it sends its render to the master to combine into one image before sending it to the monitor.

The SLI bridge is used to reduce bandwidth constraints and send data between both graphics cards directly. It is possible to run SLI without using the bridge connector on a pair of low-end to mid-range graphics cards (e.g., 7100GS or 6600GT) with Nvidia's Forceware drivers 80.XX or later. Since these graphics cards do not use as much bandwidth, data can be relayed through just the chipsets on the motherboard. However, if there are two high-end graphics cards installed and the SLI bridge is omitted, the performance will suffer severely, as the chipset does not have enough bandwidth.

Configurations currently include:
 * Two-way, three-way, and four-way SLI uses two, three, or four individual graphics cards respectively.
 * Two GPUs on one graphics card. Examples include the GeForce GTX 590, the GeForce GTX 690 and the GeForce GTX Titan Z. This configuration has the advantage of implementing two-way SLI, while only occupying one PCI Express slot and (usually) two expansion I/O slots. This also allows for four-way SLI using only two cards (which is referred to as Quad SLI).

Nvidia has created a set of custom video game profiles in cooperation with video game publishers that will automatically enable SLI in the mode that gives the largest performance boost.

Nvidia has three types of SLI bridges:
 * Standard bridge (400 MHz pixel clock and 1 GB/s bandwidth )
 * LED bridge (540 MHz pixel clock )
 * High-bandwidth bridge (650 MHz pixel clock and 2 GB/s bandwidth )

The standard bridge is traditionally included with motherboards that support SLI and is recommended for monitors up to 1920×1080 and 2560×1440 at 60 Hz. The LED bridge is sold by Nvidia, EVGA, and others and is recommended for monitors up to 2560×1440 at 120 Hz and above and 4K. The LED bridges can only function at the increased pixel clock if the GPU supports that clock. The high-bandwidth bridge is only sold by Nvidia and is recommended for monitors up to 5K and surround.

The following table provides an overview on the maximum theoretical bandwidth for data transfers depending on bridge type specifications as found on the open market:

Split-frame rendering (SFR)
This analyzes the rendered image in order to split the workload equally between the two GPUs. To do this, the frame is split horizontally in varying ratios depending on geometry. For example, in a scene where the top half of the frame is mostly empty sky, the dividing line will lower, balancing geometry workload between the two GPUs.

Alternate-frame rendering (AFR)
Each GPU renders entire frames in sequence. For example, in a two-way setup, one GPU renders the odd frames, the other the even frames, one after the other. Finished outputs are sent to the master for display. Ideally, this would result in the rendering time being cut by the number of GPUs available. In their advertising, Nvidia claims up to 1.9 times the performance of one card with the two-way setup. While AFR may produce higher overall framerates than SFR, it also exhibits the temporal artifact known as micro stuttering, which may affect frame rate perception. It is noteworthy that while the frequency at which frames arrive may be doubled, the time to produce the frame is not reduced – which means that AFR is not a viable method of reducing input lag.

SLI antialiasing
This is a standalone rendering mode that offers up to double the antialiasing performance by splitting the antialiasing workload between the two graphics cards, offering superior image quality. One GPU performs an antialiasing pattern which is slightly offset to the usual pattern (for example, slightly up and to the right), and the second GPU uses a pattern offset by an equal amount in the opposite direction (down and to the left). Compositing both the results gives higher image quality than is normally possible. This mode is not intended for higher frame rates, and can actually lower performance, but is instead intended for games which are not GPU-bound, offering a clearer image in place of better performance. When enabled, SLI antialiasing offers advanced antialiasing options: SLI 8×, SLI 16×, and SLI 32× (for quad SLI systems only).

Hybrid SLI
Hybrid SLI is the generic name for two technologies, GeForce Boost and HybridPower.

GeForce Boost allows the rendering power of an integrated graphics processor (IGP) and a discrete GPU to be combined in order to increase performance.

HybridPower, on the other hand, is another mode that is not for performance enhancement. The setup consists of an IGP as well as a GPU on MXM module. The IGP would assist the GPU to boost performance when the laptop is plugged to a power socket while the MXM module would be shut down when the laptop was unplugged from power socket to lower overall graphics power consumption. Hybrid SLI is also available on desktop Motherboards and PCs with PCI-E discrete video cards. NVIDIA claims that twice the performance can be achieved with a Hybrid SLI capable IGP motherboard and a GeForce 8400 GS video card.

HybridPower was later renamed as Nvidia Optimus.

SLI HB
In May 2016 Nvidia announced that the GeForce 10 series would feature a new SLI HB (High Bandwidth) bridge; this bridge uses 2 SLI fingers on the PCB of each card and essentially doubles the available bandwidth between them. Currently, only GeForce 10 series cards support SLI HB and only 2-way SLI is supported over this bridge for single-GPU cards. SLI HB interface runs at 650 MHz, while legacy SLI interface runs at slower 400 MHz.

Electrically there is little difference between the regular SLI bridge and the SLI HB bridge. It is similar to two regular bridges combined in one PCB. The signal quality of the bridge improved, however, as the SLI HB bridge has an adjusted trace-length to make sure all traces on the bridge have exactly the same length.

A PC gaming magazine did a comparison between SLI bridges and their SLI HB successors with X-rays, and found differences in the PCB tracing allowed clock rates to go up from 400 MHz to 650 MHz and thus the data rates along with that. With the increased bus width a noticeable bandwidth increase should be expected; however tests with a GTX 1080 GPU showed the improvements in gaming performance were marginal. Newer HB bridges are LED illuminated (often back-side-illuminating some logo) and as a result more costly than earlier bridges at a comparable base functionality.

Caveats
Recent motherboards as of October 2017 that support it are Intel's Z and X series chipsets (Z68, Z77, Z87, Z97, Z170, Z270, Z370, X79, X99 and X299) along with AMD's 990FX, X370 and X399 chipsets. Earlier chipsets, such as the Intel X58, could support 2-way SLI over 16 lane PCI-e. In order for motherboards of that generation to support more than two GPUs they were required to implement Nvidia nForce chipsets.
 * Not all motherboards with multiple PCI-Express x16 slots support SLI. On August 10, 2009, Nvidia announced that Intel and other leading motherboard manufacturers including ASUS, EVGA, Gigabyte and MSI have all licensed Nvidia SLI technology for inclusion on their Intel P55 Express Chipset-based motherboards designed for the upcoming Intel Core i7 and i5 processor in the LGA 1156 socket. Older motherboards using the P55's predecessors Intel P35 or Intel P45 do not support SLI.
 * In an SLI configuration, cards can be of mixed manufacturers, card model names, BIOS revisions or clock speeds. However, they must be of the same GPU series (e.g., 8600, 8800) and GPU model name (e.g., GT, GTS, GTX). There are rare exceptions for "mixed SLI" configurations on some cards that only have a matching core codename (e.g., G70, G73, G80, etc.), but this is otherwise not possible, and only happens when two matched cards differ only very slightly, an example being a differing amount of video memory, stream processors, or clockspeed. In this case, the slower/lesser card becomes dominant, and the other card matches. Another exception is the GTS 250, which can be paired with the 9800 GTX+, as the GTS 250 GPU is a rebadged 9800 GTX+ GPU.
 * In cases where two cards are not identical, the faster card – or the card with more memory - will run at the speed of the slower card or disable its additional memory. (Note that while the FAQ still claims different memory size support, the support has been removed since revision 100.xx of Nvidia's Forceware driver suite.)
 * SLI does not always give a performance benefit – in some extreme cases, it can lower the frame rate due to the particulars of an application's coding. This is also true for AMD's CrossFire, as the problem is inherent in multi-GPU systems. This is often witnessed when running an application at low resolutions.
 * Vsync + Triple buffering is not supported in some cases in SLI AFR mode.
 * Users having a Hybrid SLI setup must manually change modes between HybridPower and GeForce Boost, while automatically changing mode will not be available until future updates become available. Hybrid SLI currently supports only single link DVI at 1920×1200 screen resolution.
 * When using SLI with AFR, the subjective framerate can often be lower than the framerate reported by benchmarking applications, and may even be poorer than the framerate of its single-GPU equivalent. This phenomenon is known as micro stuttering and also applies to CrossFire since it is inherent to multi-GPU configurations.
 * With the new RTX 20xx series of graphics cards as launched in 2018 the interconnect is no longer SLI HB. These newer cards are using NVLink as its communication base and require either a three-slot-long or four-slot-long NVLink bridge - reasoned partially by thermal considerations and by socket availability. As of now only two GPU cards can be connected with NVLink; three-way, four-way and quad are not possible using NVLink bridges even if NVLink by principle is a very versatile interface.
 * As of the GeForce RTX 3000-series, SLI has been effectively replaced with NVLink.

title: Scalable Link Interface


text:
The Draughtsman's Contract

The Draughtsman's Contract is a 1982 British period comedy-drama film written and directed by Peter Greenaway – his first conventional feature film (following the feature-length mockumentary The Falls). Originally produced for Channel 4, the film is a form of murder mystery, set in rural Wiltshire, England in 1694 (during the joint reign of William III and Mary II). The period setting is reflected in Michael Nyman's score, which borrows widely from Henry Purcell, and in the extensive and elaborate costume designs (which, for effect, slightly exaggerate those of the period). The action was shot on location in the house and formal gardens of Groombridge Place. The film received the Grand Prix of the Belgian Film Critics Association.

Plot
Mr Neville, a young and conceited artist, is contracted by Mrs Virginia Herbert  to produce a series of twelve landscape drawings of her country house, its outbuildings and gardens, as a gift for her cold and neglectful husband, who is currently away on business.

Part of the contract is that Mrs Herbert agrees to comply with Mr Neville's sexual demands. Several sexual encounters between them follow, each indicating reluctance or distress on the part of Mrs Herbert, and sexual aggression or insensitivity on the part of Mr Neville. During his stay, Mr Neville becomes disliked by several of the estate's inhabitants and visitors, especially by Mrs Herbert's German son-in-law, Mr Talmann.

Eventually Mrs Herbert, wearied by Mr Neville's excessive sexual appetite, tries to terminate the contract before the drawings are completed. But Neville refuses and their encounters continue as before. Then Mrs Herbert's married but childless daughter, Mrs Talmann, frustrated by her husband's lack of interest in sex, blackmails Neville into a second contract, in which he agrees to comply with her sexual demands, rather than she with his. Mrs Talman wishes to become pregnant, and knows this is unlikely to happen with her husband.

Mr Herbert does not return when expected, and his dead body is eventually discovered in the moat. Mr Neville completes his drawings and leaves, but returns to make an unlucky thirteenth drawing. During his visit, he is surprised when Mrs Herbert propositions him for sex, and they make love. Mrs Herbert also indicates that her daughter's plan to conceive a child by Mr Neville has been successful.

In the evening, while Mr Neville is apparently finishing the final sketch, he is approached by a masked man, obviously Mr Talmann in disguise, who is then joined by the estate manager and Mrs Herbert's former fiancé, Mr Noyes, her neighbour Mr Seymour, and the Poulenc twins, eccentric local landowners.

The party accuses Mr Neville of the murder of Mr Herbert, for the drawings can be interpreted to suggest more than one illegal act and to implicate more than one person. They also accuse him of the sexual violation of Mrs Herbert, as evidenced by his sexual congress with her that afternoon.

Neville realises, too late, that he has been entrapped by Mrs Herbert. Despite his protests, the group of men blind him and beat him to death, finally casting his body into the moat at the place where Mr Herbert's corpse was found.

Themes
Although there is a murder mystery, its resolution is not explicit; it is implied that the mother (Mrs Herbert) and daughter (Mrs Talmann) planned the murder of Mr Herbert. Mrs Herbert and Mrs Talmann were aided by Mr Clarke, the gardener, and his assistant.

In order to keep the estate in their hands, they needed an heir. Because Mr Talmann was impotent, they used Mr Neville as a stud. Mr Herbert was murdered at the site where Mr Neville is murdered. (In the original treatment, Mr Herbert is murdered on his return on the 12th day and the site was vetoed as a painting site, because it was instead to be used as a murder site.)

Background
The film was inspired when Greenaway, who trained as an artist before becoming a filmmaker, spent three weeks drawing a house near Hay-on-Wye while holidaying with his family. Much like Mr Neville in the final film, every day he would work on a particular view at a set time, to preserve the lighting effects while sketching from day to day. The hands shown drawing in the film are Greenaway's own, as are the completed drawings.

The original cut of the film was about three hours long. The opening scene was about 30 minutes long and showed each character talking, at least once, with every other character. Possibly to make the film easier to watch, Greenaway edited it to 103 minutes. The opening scene is now about 10 minutes long and no longer shows all the interactions among all of the characters. Some anomalies in the longer version film are deliberate anachronisms: the depiction of the use of a cordless phone in the 17th century and the inclusion on the walls of the house of paintings by Greenaway in emulation of Roy Lichtenstein which are partly visible in the released version of the film.

The released final version provides fewer explanations to the plot's numerous oddities and mysteries. The main murder mystery is never solved, though little doubt remains as to who did it. The reasons for the 'living statue' in the garden and why Mr Neville attached so many conditions to his contract were also more developed in the first version.

Locations
Groombridge Place was the main location in this tale of 17th-century intrigue and murder.

Music
Michael Nyman's score is derived from grounds by Henry Purcell overlaid with new melodies, while one of the recurring tracks, apparently excluded from the film's soundtrack, is at least partly derived from the second movement of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart's Violin Sonata in E Minor, K. 304. The original plan was to use one ground for every two of the twelve drawings but Nyman states in the liner notes that this was unworkable. The ground for one of the most popular pieces, "An Eye for Optical Theory", is considered to be probably composed by William Croft, a contemporary of Purcell. The goal was to create a generalized memory of Purcell, rather than specific memories, so a piece as readily recognizable as "Dido's Lament" was not considered an acceptable source of a ground. Purcell is credited as a "music consultant".

The album was the fourth album release by Michael Nyman and the third to feature the Michael Nyman Band. "It's like harpsichord and a lot of strings, woodwind and a bit of brass," remarked Neil Hannon, frontman of The Divine Comedy. "Somehow they just manage to… rock. With a vengeance."

The following ground sources are taken from the chart in Pwyll ap Siôn's The Music of Michael Nyman: Text, Context and Intertext, reordered to match their sequence on the album.

Track listing

 * 1) "Chasing Sheep Is Best Left to Shepherds"- 2:33 (King Arthur, Act III, Scene 2, Prelude (as Cupid descends))
 * 2) "The Disposition of the Linen"- 4:47 ("She Loves and She Confesses Too" (Secular Song, Z.413))
 * 3) "A Watery Death"- 3:31 ("Pavan in B flat," Z. 750; "Chaconne" from Suite No. 2 in G Minor)
 * 4) "The Garden Is Becoming a Robe Room"- 6:05 ("Here the deities approve" from Welcome to all the Pleasures (Ode); E minor ground in Henry Playford's collection, Musick's Hand-Maid (Second Part))
 * 5) "Queen of the Night"- 6:09 ("So when the glitt'ring Queen of the Night" from The Yorkshire Feast Song)
 * 6) "An Eye for Optical Theory"- 5:09 (Ground in C minor (D221) [attributed to William Croft])
 * 7) "Bravura in the Face of Grief"- 12:16 ("The Plaint" from The Fairy-Queen, Act V)

The first music heard in the film is, in fact, a bit of Purcell's song "Queen of the Night." "The Disposition of the Linen," in its Nyman formulation, is a waltz, a form that postdates Purcell by c. 150 years.

The album was issued on compact disc in 1989 by Virgin Records, marketed in the United States by Caroline Records under their Blue Plate imprint. Initially this was indicated with a sticker; it was later incorporated into the back cover design in a much smaller size.

The entire album has been rerecorded by the current lineup of the Michael Nyman Band. See The Composer's Cut Series Vol. I: The Draughtsman's Contract.

Art references
The visual references for the film are paintings by Caravaggio, de La Tour, Rembrandt, Vermeer and other Baroque artists and this gives the film a "painterly quality". Greenaway also said: "I consider that 90% of my films one way or another refers to paintings. "Contract" quite openly refers to Caravaggio, Georges de La Tour and other French and Italian artists".

Reception
The Draughtsman's Contract has a 97% approval rating on Rotten Tomatoes based on 31 reviews, with a weighted average of 8.3/10. The site's consensus reads: "Smart and utterly original, The Draughtsman's Contract is a period piece that marks the further maturation of a writer-director with a thrillingly unique vision". Roger Ebert, who gave the film a full four stars, wrote, "What we have here is a tantalizing puzzle, wrapped in eroticism and presented with the utmost elegance. [...] All of the characters speak in complete, elegant, literary sentences. All of the camera strategies are formal and mannered. The movie advances with the grace and precision of a well-behaved novel." In Slant, a mildly positive Jeremiah Kipp called it "a first, fledgling attempt at what he later perfected, but that modesty could be seen as a virtue, since there is indeed some form of narrative here instead of the nonlinear, compulsive list-making and categorization that drives some people crazy about his other films. [...] The story marches forward like a death march and is resolved with merciless efficiency." Danny Peary wrote that "Greenaway handles everything with such elegance that we are totally unprepared for the final act of cruelty. Ending is haunting; it makes you reassess all that went before – supposed victims are really heartless predators."

Restoration
The film was originally shot on Super 16mm film then blown up to 35mm for cinema releases. In 2003 the BFI restored the film digitally and this restoration was released on DVD. Umbrella Entertainment released the digitally restored film on DVD in Australia, with special features including an introduction and commentary by Peter Greenaway, an interview with composer Michael Nyman, behind the scenes footage and on set interviews, deleted scenes, trailers and a featurette on the film's digital restoration.

Sites

 * The Draughtsman's Contract at petergreenaway.org.uk
 * The Draughtsman's Contract at BFI
 * DVD Bonus material – Original proposal
 * The Draughtsman's Contract at BFI
 * DVD Bonus material – Original proposal
 * The Draughtsman's Contract at BFI
 * DVD Bonus material – Original proposal

Reviews

 * The Draughtsman's Contract, film reference, Sylvia Paskin – detailed bibliography
 * 922 (63). The Draughtsman’s Contract (1982, Peter Greenaway), Shooting Down Pictures – links and excerpts to many reviews
 * The Draughtsman's Contract, James Mackenzie, January 2001
 * The Draughtsman's Contract, not coming to a theater near you, David Carter, 12 January 2010
 * The Draughtsman's Contract, DVD Beaver – comparison of DVD releases

title: The Draughtsman's Contract


text:
The Gadget Maker

The Gadget Maker is a 1954 novel by Maxwell Griffith. It is notable for its vivid depiction of an otherwise-rarely-described milieu: campus life at MIT in the 1940s. It also presents a striking engineers-eye-view of guided missile development at a West Coast aerospace firm during the early days of the cold war.

On its appearance, The New York Times described The Gadget Maker as "the story of a misguided zealot devoted body and soul to the advancement of knowledge" and called it "an absorbing narrative [and] a clear presentation of technological subject-matter, written with stylistic ease and fluidity by an author who is himself a graduate of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology."

Synopsis
The novel traces the life of Stanley Brack, captivated by model aircraft as a child. He enters MIT, and in a memorable scene, is interviewed by the head of the School of Aeronautical Engineering, a legendary German aerodynamicist. His main concern is unexpected. "From your hair and general coloring," he said slowly, "I thought you might perhaps be Jewish." Brack reassures him that he and both his parents are Baptists and of Scots-Irish descent. "We have to be careful," the professor confides; "The aircraft industry is one of the few they haven't managed to take over yet," and congratulates Stanley on his acceptance into the course. The incident turns out to be one of many in which Brack swallows any thought of protest and goes along to get along.

After graduation, he joins Amcraft, the Amalgamated Aircraft Corporation, in Los Angeles. It is a manufacturer of aircraft components that is just about to unveil its first complete airplane, a transport. The company is run personally by Dave Humbler, "president, founder of the company, chief engineer—big wheel number one. Real nice guy, Dave," a colleague explains. (Resemblances can be seen to the Douglas Aircraft Company.) Brack rises through the ranks and grows with the company.

After the war Amcraft acquires the services of Gunther Rausch, "a spoil of war" and a rocket expert from Peenemünde. His presence gives the company an edge in picking up missile work.

Rausch is brilliant but arrogant and Brack detests him. Nevertheless, as the book draws to a climax, he makes common cause with him in an effort to perfect a guided missile. Brack is the project manager, and the project is in trouble and behind schedule. He pressures a friend and colleague into conducting some dangerous rocket tests with Rausch. Rausch is tense and jittery and gives coworkers an impression that he is concealing personal inexperience in conducting such tests. There is an explosion, and Brack's friend Sim suffers terrible injuries: physical and chemical burns and lung damage that leaves him close to death.

Brack's fiancée, a witness, tells Brack that Rausch was panicky during the test and "never stopped fiddling with the switches... he was like some hot-head whose car won't start but who keeps on turning the ignition switch." She thinks Rausch could have caused the explosion (a concern which ultimately turns out to be unfounded). Brack furiously argues with Rausch, then debates with his superior about the project's future and who should lead it. Brack convinces his superior to let him continue as leader. As the discussion closes, his superior says "Okay, it's all settled." But he adds "One other thing—I'm firing the girl." Brack's protest sticks in his throat; "ashamed, he looked at his feet, and then he nodded."

The book closes with Brack and Rausch standing together literally arm in arm, watching the conclusion of a successful missile test. "Did you see it, Gunther?" Brack says. "Yah," breaths Rausch, "Just like a star. A shooting star." "And we made it," says Brack, proudly, as the tale ends.

The New York Times reviewer says that "the question arises... whether Brack is to be regarded as an all-wool idealist pursuing heroically his destiny despite any and all distractions tossed in his way. Or is he a less desirable type, possessed of the ability to abandon all pretense to ethical conduct in his ambitious pursuit after self-advancement?"

Although the Times calls it an "absorbing narrative," to a modern reader much of the interest lies, not in the broad story outline, but in the dozens of little details and circumstantial touches which bring times, places, and situations—not well documented elsewhere—to life.

Quotations

 * At night, floodlights glare from artfully concealing shrubbery and lave the main building with a white light that emphasizes black-trimmed, three-story windows rising in uninterrupted, eye-leading verticals toward a dominant, austere dome mimicked from some classic pile of ancient Rome. [[Image:mitgreatdome.jpg|right|150px|thumb|MIT's Great Dome]] [[Image:MIT-newton-tower-cropped-sharpened.jpg|left|150px|thumb|Newton tower]] On every slab-sided cornice, like proclamations of faith needing no explanation, are chiseled Darwin, Newton, Aristotle and, in lesser letters, the names of the more numerous Lavoisiers and Eulers and Faradays who have discovered the chemical elements or evolved the equations or stumbled upon the fundamentals of nature. Indeed, not unlovely is the breeding ground of technicians and engineers which, as announced in stone above great, fluted columns, is the MASSACHVSETTS INSTITVTE OF TECHNOLOGY.

 * "What do you expect from me—miracles!" Rausch demanded angrily. "Do you expect me to build an engine—" he snapped his fingers—"like so?  I am a scientist, not a magician!  To develop a new engine you must haf an organization that can supply the test benches with one experimental engine after the other. You must make, break and remake engines until you get one that works."

title: The Gadget Maker


text:
Wentworth County, Ontario

Wentworth County, area 269057 acre, is a historic county in the Canadian province of Ontario.

It was created in 1816 as part of the Gore District (1816-1849) in what was then Upper Canada and later Canada West (1841-1867). It was named in honour of Sir John Wentworth, the last royal governor of colonial New Hampshire, lieutenant-governor of Nova Scotia (1792 to 1808) and an intimate friend of William Jarvis, the first provincial secretary of Upper Canada. The county originally consisted of seven townships that formerly belonged to Haldimand, Lincoln and York Counties.

Between 1850 and 1854, Wentworth County and Halton County were briefly joined for government purposes as the United Counties of Wentworth and Halton although for administrative purposes, they remained distinct.

In 1973, Wentworth County was replaced by the Regional Municipality of Hamilton–Wentworth. In 2001, the Regional Municipality and its six constituent municipalities were amalgamated as the "megacity" of Hamilton.

Constituent townships
Each township that was ever part of the county is listed alphabetically below along with its years of existence, and its previous and subsequent configurations.

 * Ancaster, area 44946 acre, (surveyed 1798), 1816–1973, later became a village then town and part of township to Town of Dundas
 * Barton, area 9958 acre. The township was surveyed 1792 and named after the English town. The township included Hamilton and existed from 1816 to 1973, later became Village and City of Hamilton
 * Beverley, area 69920 acre. Surveyed and opened for settlement in 1798. The five northern concessions were surveyed in 1794 and the southern part in 1797. The Township was named from the town in the East Riding of Yorkshire. Community centres were: Copetown, Lynden, Rockton and Westover. The Township existed from 1851 to 1973, later divided with one part to North Dumfries, Ontario and majority to Town of Flamborough
 * Binbrook (surveyed 1798), existed from 1816 to 1973, later one half of Glanbrook Township
 * Caistor, existed from 1845 to 1851, earlier and later part of Haldimand County, then Lincoln County and, since 1970, the Township of West Lincoln in the Regional Municipality of Niagara
 * Flamborough East, area 33815 acre. Both East and West Flamborough were surveyed and opened for settlement in 1792. The Township existed from 1851 to 1973, later divided with one part to City of Burlington and majority to Town of Flamborough
 * Flamborough West, area 31028 acre Both East and West Flamborough were surveyed and opened for settlement in 1792. The Township existed from 1851 to 1973, later divided with one part to Town of Dundas and majority to Town of Flamborough
 * Glanford, area 23527 acre Was surveyed and opened for settlement in 1798. The township was named from Glanford-Brigg in Lincolnshire. Community centres were Glanford and Fenton. The Township existed from 1816 to 1974. The Township was later the other half of Glanbrook Township
 * Onondaga, existed from 1816 to 1851, home of the Six Nations of the Grand River
 * Saltfleet, area 28321 acre. Was surveyed and opened in 1792. The name was suggested by the existence of several salt water springs. The Township existed from 1816 to 1973, later the town and city of Stoney Creek
 * Seneca, existed from 1816 to 1851, later part of Brant County

Source: Province of Ontario -- A History 1615 to 1927 by Jesse Edgar Middleton & Fred Landon, copyright 1927, Dominion Publishing Company, Toronto]

title: Wentworth County, Ontario


text:
User talk:Spammer132

Please don't blank pages. This is your one and only warning. Ambi 06:57, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:Spammer132


text:
Clive Burr

Clive Ronald Burr (8 March 1957 – 12 March 2013) was an English musician. He was the drummer of the heavy metal band Iron Maiden from 1979 to 1982. Together with fellow Iron Maiden member Dennis Stratton, he joined Praying Mantis for the recording of their 1996 live album Captured Alive in Tokyo City.

Career
Previously a member of Samson, Burr joined Iron Maiden in 1979. Auditioning and joining upon the recommendation of then-Iron Maiden guitarist Dennis Stratton, Burr played on their first three records: Iron Maiden, Killers and their breakthrough release The Number of the Beast, the last of which was the Maiden debut of Bruce Dickinson. Burr was fired from the band in 1982 during The Beast on the Road tour. He was replaced by the band's current drummer, Nicko McBrain. Burr co-wrote one song on The Number of the Beast, "Gangland", and another song, "Total Eclipse", that was cut from the album and showed up as the B-side of the "Run to the Hills" single, and later on the Number of the Beast remastered CD re-release, and again on the 2022 40th Anniversary record, where it replaced Gangland. Burr also appeared on "The Number of the Beast", "Run to the Hills" and "Women in Uniform" (a cover of the Australian band Skyhooks).

In an interview with Classic Rock in February 2011, Burr candidly discussed his split from Maiden. Describing much of what has been written about the split as "hogwash", Burr indicated that he was ousted from the band after taking a break to mourn the recent death of his father, rebutting claims that his departure was due to overindulgence. Bruce Dickinson's 2017 autobiography suggests Burr was ousted due to personality conflicts with Steve Harris which led to the two arguing and acting out during performances.

After "leaving" Iron Maiden, Burr briefly played in the French group Trust, thus switching places with McBrain, and briefly with the American band Alcatrazz. Burr was featured in the short-lived NWOBHM supergroup Gogmagog which also included ex-Iron Maiden vocalist Paul Di'Anno and future Maiden guitarist Janick Gers, ex Whitesnake bassist Neil Murray and ex Def Leppard guitarist Pete Willis. He also had a band known as Clive Burr's Escape (later known as Stratus), featuring former Praying Mantis members and future Uriah Heep vocalist Bernie Shaw, which disbanded after releasing one album. Burr then joined Dee Snider in his post-Twisted Sister outfit Desperado, which was never fully realized due to a falling out with the band's record company. Burr performed with British bands Elixir and Praying Mantis in the 1990s and appears on the Praying Mantis 1996 live album "Captured Alive in Tokyo City", but did not become a full member of either.

Burr's signature white drum kit was donated to the Hard Rock Cafe in London in 2005.

Illness
Burr was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis in the late 1990s, the treatment of which left him deeply in debt. Iron Maiden staged a series of charity concerts and were involved in the founding of the Clive Burr MS Trust Fund. Burr used a wheelchair due to his condition.

He was also the patron of Clive Aid, a charity formed in 2004. Clive Aid has continued to raise awareness and funds for various cancer and multiple sclerosis programs around the world through the staging of rock events. Burr attended many of these events. His partner Mimi was also diagnosed with MS.

Death
Burr died in his sleep on 12 March 2013 in London, four days after his 56th birthday, due to complications related to MS.

In a statement released on the band's website Iron Maiden bass player Steve Harris stated "This is terribly sad news. Clive was a very old friend of all of us. He was a wonderful person and an amazing drummer who made a valuable contribution to Maiden in the early days when we were starting out. This is a sad day for everyone in the band and those around him and our thoughts and condolences are with his partner Mimi and family at this time."

Iron Maiden singer Bruce Dickinson stated "Even during the darkest days of his M.S., Clive never lost his sense of humour or irreverence."

A funeral service was held for Burr on 25 March 2013 in London.

Legacy
Burr's style was influential on many heavy metal drummers. Dave Lombardo, known for his work with bands such as Slayer, Grip Inc., Fantômas, Suicidal Tendencies and Testament stated that "his style was inspiring and the albums he recorded with Iron Maiden are touchstones of my music education". Charlie Benante of Anthrax said: "the drumming on 'Killers' inspired me to kick it up a notch and I did." According to Dave McClain, former drummer for Machine Head, who considers Burr a huge influence, he "brought punk rock drumming into heavy metal".

Other drummers like Paul Bostaph (Slayer, Exodus, Testament), Stefan Schwarzmann (Helloween, Krokus), Chris Reifert (Death, Autopsy), Steve Asheim (Deicide), Jan Axel Blomberg (Mayhem), Jason Bittner (Shadows Fall) and Richard Christy (Iced Earth, Death, Charred Walls of the Damned) also cited Burr as an influence.

Jeff Waters, guitarist and leader of Annihilator, regards his drumming as an inspiration on the drum parts he writes for his band.

Iron Maiden lead singer Bruce Dickinson considered him to be "...the best drummer the band ever had. That's not taking anything away from [present drummer] Nicko. Technically, Nicko's probably a far more competent drummer than Clive. It's just that Clive had this incredible feel, and you can't learn that, and I regret that he wasn't given more time to try and sort himself out." Iron Maiden guitarist Adrian Smith also praised his drumming ability. "Clive was a great drummer, an Ian Paice-type drummer, steady and solid with a nice feel to everything."

In a tribute article posted by Rolling Stone the day after Burr's passing, writer Greg Prato pointed out that "It was Burr's drumming that proved a major ingredient on such early Maiden classics as 1980's self-titled debut, 1981's Killers and 1982's The Number of the Beast, and such headbanging anthems as 'Running Free,' 'Wrathchild' and 'Run to the Hills'."

Discography

 * With Samson
 * "Telephone" (single)
 * "Mr Rock and Roll" (single)

 * With Iron Maiden
 * Iron Maiden (1980)
 * Live!! +one (1980)
 * Killers (1981)
 * Live at the Rainbow (1981)
 * Maiden Japan (1981)
 * The Number of the Beast (1982)
 * Video Pieces (1983)
 * 12 Wasted Years (1987)
 * The First Ten Years (From There to Eternity) (1990)
 * Best of the Beast (1996)
 * Ed Hunter (1999)
 * Classic Albums: Iron Maiden – The Number of the Beast (2001)
 * BBC Archives (2002)
 * Beast over Hammersmith (2002)
 * Best of the 'B' Sides (2002)
 * Edward the Great (2002)
 * The History of Iron Maiden – Part 1: The Early Days (2004)
 * The Essential Iron Maiden (2005)
 * Somewhere Back in Time (2008)

 * With Trust
 * Trust IV (1983)
 * Man's Trap (1984)
 * The Best of (1997)

 * With Stratus
 * Throwing Shapes (1984)

 * With Gogmagog
 * I Will Be There (EP; 1985)

 * With Elixir
 * Lethal potion (1990)
 * Sovereign Remedy (2004)

 * With Desperado
 * Bloodied But Unbowed (1996, recorded in 1988)

 * With Praying Mantis
 * Captured Alive in Tokyo City (1996)
 * Demorabilia (1999) (compilation, contains demos of Clive Burr's Escape)

title: Clive Burr


text:
Talk:Mental property

I've reverted the page. It is unclear as to what exactly "psychobabbble" means, and why what was posted on the page counts as "psychobabbble", and why "psychobabble" should not be on a page about mental properties. Care to clarify?

Weasel wording
I'm going to add the "weasel" banner on this page. Here are a few reasons why. I can provide more reasons - feel free to ask me - but I believe these to be sufficient. I do intend to help improve this article, so please do not see this as a "hit and run." D15724C710N (talk • contribs) 07:55, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It is claimed that mental properties are studied by sciences and parasciences. Then it is claimed that "philosophy of mind", which is neither science nor parascience, also studies mental properties.
 * The article states that the third approach is the "most universal research." I believe this shows a clear bias.
 * Undue emphasis is placed on systemics. Mental properties have been the subject of study by many other disciplines for a lot longer than systemics has been around.
 * I think the wording which will address the concerns above and also the authors original intention is: "The third is the most recent area of research". Then I propose that the weasel-wording dispute tag can be removed.  Good luck to all those intending to improve the article - surely just one REF can be found?! Mediation4u (talk) 08:25, 28 June 2011 (UTC)  editing is fun
 * Improved the article. Several days allowed for reply, so going ahead with proposal above, so Weasel words removed / reworded in article.  and tag removed.
 * Good luck to all those intending to improve the article - surely just one REF can be found on google?! Mediation4u (talk) 07:29, 30 June 2011 (UTC) editing is fun

title: Talk:Mental property


text:
Dart River / Te Awa Whakatipu

The Dart River (officially Dart River / Te Awa Whakatipu from Te Awa Whakatipu) flows through rugged forested country in the southwestern South Island of New Zealand. Partly in Mount Aspiring National Park, it flows south-west and then south for 60 km from its headwaters in the Southern Alps and the Dart Glacier, eventually flowing into the northern end of Lake Wakatipu near Glenorchy.

There are many popular tramping tracks in the region. The Rees-Dart Track is a five-day loop which combines the valley of Te Awa Whakatipu with the nearby Rees River. Jetboats operate on the river.

The Dart River, as many other areas in and around the Glenorchy and Queenstown area, was the location for many scenes filmed for The Lord of the Rings film trilogy. Examples are Isengard, filmed at Dan's Paddock, and Lothlórien in the forests slightly further north. The only road bridge across the river, 16 km north of Glenorchy and en route to the start of the Routeburn Track, was used as the eponymous bridge in the 2020 television drama series One Lane Bridge.

The upper valley was the site of one of New Zealand's worst light aircraft accidents in 1989, when an Aspiring Air Britten-Norman Islander crashed, killing all ten people on board.

Name
The river was first known by its Māori name of Te Awa Whakatipu, with te awa literally translating as 'the river'. The name Whakatipu is shared with several nearby geographic features, including Lake Wakatipu and Whakatipu Kā Tuka (the Hollyford River) though this name is an archaic term and its original meaning is no longer known. During the 1860s, the runholder William Gilbert Rees named the river the Dart, after the river's swift flow.

In 1998, the river became one of nearly 90 geographic features to be given an official dual name as part of the Ngāi Tahu Claims Settlement Act 1998, a Treaty of Waitangi settlement between Ngāi Tahu and the Crown. This dual name combined the name Dart River with the Māori name, in recognition of the significance of both names.

title: Dart River / Te Awa Whakatipu


text:
Navy One

Navy One is the call sign of any United States Navy aircraft carrying the president of the United States.

There has only been one aircraft designated as Navy One: a Lockheed S-3 Viking, BuNo 159387, assigned to the "Blue Wolves" of VS-35, which transported President George W. Bush to the aircraft carrier USS Abraham Lincoln off the coast of San Diego, California, on 1 May 2003. The pilot was Commander John "Skip" Lussier, then VS-35's executive officer; and the flight officer was Lieutenant Ryan "Wilson" Phillips. The S-3 used for the flight was retired from service and placed on display at the National Naval Aviation Museum in Pensacola, Florida on 17 July 2003.

A Navy aircraft carrying the vice president would be designated Navy Two.

title: Navy One