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The Warehouse Group

The Warehouse Group (TWG) was established by Stephen Tindall in 1982 and is the largest retail group in operation in New Zealand. It is a corporate conglomerate that consists of The Warehouse, Warehouse Stationery and Noel Leeming.

History
The first Warehouse Group store opened in North Shore, Auckland in 1982. In 1994, Warehouse was added to the New Zealand Exchange under the symbol TWH. In 1996, a distribution center opened on the North Island. In 2000, it was added to the NZSE 10 index. The group acquired Clint's Crazy Bargains and Silly Solly's in Australia that same year.

In 2003, the Warehouse Australia brand was launched. In 2005, a lab store was launched in the Hamilton suburb of Te Rapa. That same year, the Warehouse brand was relaunched with new lower-case logo, announced its plan to enter the liquor market and that it would end operations in Australia by Christmas. In 2005, Warehouse Australia was sold to Catalyst Investment Managers and Castle Harlan Australian Mezzanine Partners for A$92 million (NZ$99m).

In 2006, the Warehouse began selling alcoholic beverages in selected stores and launched a new set of stores branded The Warehouse Extra at Sylvia Park, Auckland, which included full grocery as well as pharmacies, cafés, and bakeries. At the time, the stores were considered an unproven experiment and many viewed them as an emulation of the American Wal-Mart model. However, due to supply chain issues, The Warehouse Extra stores were closed in 2009.

In 2007, the company celebrated its 25th anniversary and marked the occasion by releasing 13,000 balloons, causing concerns from environmentalists. In 2009, the first smaller-concept store, The Warehouse Local, opened in Mosgiel. In 2010, the Warehouse opened a store in Gisborne, New Zealand, the first large format store since the opening of The Warehouse Sylvia Park in 2006. In 2012, The Warehouse ceased its instore pharmacy offer. Later that year, The Warehouse announced it was buying the electronics retailer The Noel Leeming Group for $65 million.

In 2013, The Warehouse Group held a one-day online-only sale across all brands in the group called Click Madness. During that same year, the company purchased Torpedo7, No. 1 Fitness, Shotgun Supplements, Insight Traders, and Shop HQ, the latter of which included the online pet retailer, pet.co.nz, and the online baby product company, baby.co.nz.

In 2014, The Warehouse Group bought R&R Sport and SchoolTex. That same year, the company launched The Warehouse Group Financial Services after the takeover of Diners Club NZ. In 2014, the group purchased the New Zealand-based branches of Australian retail chain The Good Guys, turning their five New Zealand-based stores into their various retail brands. In July 2017, The Warehouse Group announced that it intended to sell the Financial Services division that it had acquired in 2014 to SBS Bank for a reported $18 million by September. In 2018, the group purchased the Appliance Shed brand to create the Noel Leeming Clearance Centre brand. In 2019, the company launched TheMarket, a new online marketplace selling local and international brands.

In June 2020, The Warehouse Group announced that 1,080 jobs would be lost as a result of the economic effects of the COVID-19 pandemic in New Zealand. The company also announced that it would be closing down six stores including The Warehouse stores in Whangaparaoa, Johnsonville, Dunedin, the Warehouse Stationery in Te Awamutu, and the Noel Leeming stores in Henderson and Tokoroa.

On 20 July 2020, the company's COO Pejman Okhovat announced that between 500 and 750 jobs may be lost due to a proposed restructuring of the company. First Union general secretary Dennis Maga criticized the company for using COVID-19 as an excuse to lay off hundreds of workers and to reduce the incomes of thousands of employees.

On 21 December, The Warehouse Group announced that it was in a "confident enough position" to repay its NZ$67.8 million COVID-19 wage subsidy to the Government.

From early 2021, all Warehouse stores across the country stopped selling physical media including DVDs, Blu-Rays, CDs, and Vinyl Records. In May 2021, The Warehouse Group announced that fireworks would no longer be sold at The Warehouse stores. Jewellery counters also began to close in July 2021.

Since 2023 The Warehouse has been trialling selling fresh fruit and vegetables.

In late 2023, Sanitarium stopped supplying The Warehouse with Weet-Bix due to alleged supply issues. The Warehouse asked the Commerce Commission to investigate, and Sanitraium revoked the move the following week. In March 2024 the Commission said that it was "not clear that Sanitarium breach[ed] ... the Commerce Act" and that it would not "prioritize the matter for further investigation". As a result, chief executive Grayston said he was "very disappointed".

In February 2024, The Warehouse Group sold Torpedo7 for $1 to Tahua Partners.

Business
The Warehouse operates discount retail department stores selling a broad range of non-grocery and grocery products. As of January 2015, The Warehouse employed over 12,000 people in New Zealand. The Warehouse's corporate headquarters are located in North Shore, New Zealand.

The company operates from over 240 retail locations, as well as two distribution centers located in Wiri and in Rolleston, New Zealand, and 13 online stores.

In addition to its operations, it owns various brand names that are located within the stores. It has gardening facilities located in Auckland, Hamilton and in Christchurch. Along with its gardening brand Just, it also operates nearly 30 in-company brands.

The Warehouse is publicly traded on the New Zealand Stock Exchange with the security code WHS (previously TWH).

Criticism
In May 2007, the company released 13,000 balloons from Dairy Flat to mark its 25th anniversary. This sparked concerns from the Department of Conservation and other environmentalists as the balloons had been known to endanger wildlife.

In December 2009, it was announced that The Warehouse staff would be taking industrial action due to issues with staff having their hours extended to 50-hour weeks in the lead-up to Christmas and staff having to work late at night.

In December 2018, Noel Leeming was fined $200,000 for misleading consumers about their rights under the Consumer Guarantees Act (CGA) following a Commerce Commission prosecution. Noel Leeming was convicted on eight charges under the Fair Trading Act.

In March 2020, The Warehouse Group drew criticism when its directors prematurely announced that they were an essential service during the COVID-19 pandemic without consulting with the Government. The company faced a fine of NZ$500,000 if it was found to have breached the New Zealand Exchange's disclosure rules or found to have profited from a rise in its share price stemming from the announcement. The company subsequently shut down its brands for the duration of the four-week lockdown with all staff being given full paid leave.

In early June 2020, The Warehouse Group was criticized by First Union coordinator Kate Davis for allegedly not consulting employees about a plan to lay off 1,080 workers and close six stores as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic.

Return policy
The company operates a comprehensive returns policy. A "60-day money-back guarantee" policy with returns accepted for any reason is available on most products, excluding underwear, pre-recorded media, and perishable products.

Australian expansion
In 2000, the company entered the Australian retail market. It acquired the Clint's Crazy Bargains and Silly Solly's retail chains. At the time of purchase, those chains had around 117 stores.

In 2003, the company built a $33 million (AUD) distribution centre in Queensland to service the country. Later that year, the company introduced its Tui and Tolas inventory management systems from New Zealand.

As of 2005, the Australian arm was still under-performing. Sales for 2005 were at $518.8 million (AUD) compared with $567.3  million (AUD) in 2004. The Warehouse Group Limited announced in November 2005 that it had entered into a conditional agreement to sell The Warehouse Australia business to Catalyst Investment Managers and its parent PPM Capital Limited (together, Catalyst) and Castle Harlan Australian Mezzanine Partners, acting on behalf of the CHAMP I and CHAMP II funds (CHAMP) for A$92 million (NZ$99m). The new entity was known as Australian Discount Retail (ADR). As part of the transaction, The Warehouse Australia's Sydney Head Office would be sold to Investec Wentworth Specialised Property Trust. While the effective date for the transaction was due to be 27 November 2005, completion of the sale was expected in early 2006 and was subject to normal regulatory approvals.

At its formation, ADR also purchased the discount store operations of Miller's Retail, including the Go-Lo, Crazy Clark's and Chickenfeed chains. There were 335 such stores at the time of sale.

After the sale of the Australian operation, Warehouse stores were renamed Sam's Warehouse.

The operations soon had massive wall-to-wall administrations and management changes culminating in widespread closures, divestments to rivals like The Reject Shop, and mergers of chains until it was finally placed into liquidation by receivers in 2014.

The Warehouse Extra hypermarkets
In June 2006, The Warehouse Extra opened at Sylvia Park, Auckland. It was the first of a planned chain of hypermarkets, at 135,000 sq ft (12,500 sq m). In a similar fashion to the Wal-Mart Supercenters of the United States, the foodmarket department aisles are placed at a perpendicular angle to the general merchandise. It is the first store to feature an in-store bakery, pharmacy, and café, and instead of the usual tall industrial shelving, a more conventional store shelving system has been used. The store also features a lot less red than in traditional stores, but the familiar concrete floor still exists. The next branches of "The Warehouse Extra" were in Whangarei and Te Rapa in Hamilton. In October 2008 The Warehouse announced that they would be canning "The Warehouse Extra" format with stores reverting to the more traditional style of the store coming months. There were four of The Warehouse Extra in Auckland (Albany, Manukau, Sylvia Park, and Westgate). Today "The Warehouse Extra" brand is used in larger traditional stores nationwide, with many existing large stores have taken on "The Warehouse Extra" branding such as those in Lyall Bay (Wellington), Riccarton (Christchurch), South Dunedin and Palmerston North. Stores carrying "The Warehouse Extra" brand are typically larger, open later and carry a greater range than regular stores.

The Warehouse Local

On Thursday 23 July 2009, The Warehouse Group opened the first of its smaller-concept stores, The Warehouse Local, in Mosgiel. These stores are approximately 2000 square meters in size, compared with the usual 5000 square meters seen in larger locations. These stores also have single checkout counters, doing without dedicated Service, Jewellery, and Entertainment counters which are present in most other stores. Another 3 stores were intended to be launched per year, following this concept.

While the "Local" naming is no longer used, smaller stores in Rolleston and St Lukes have opened using the smaller format.

Entry into e-commerce
In 2009, The Warehouse announced its entry into online shopping. The brand's full range of products was available online by 2012, in time for the brand's 30th birthday.

The brand's offerings were also made available on the New Zealand e-commerce platform The Market in 2019.

Store within a store
In 2017, The Warehouse Group unveiled its first "Store within a Store" (shortened to SWAS), with Warehouse Stationery moving into The Warehouse Auckland Airport after their lease at their previous Auckland Airport Mall premises ended.

The Warehouse SWAS stores have many similar features of typical Warehouse Stationery stores, including a range of computers, printers, office furniture, and stationery, as well as a Print & Copy Centre. The Warehouse departments, such as furniture and entertainment, merge in a SWAS environment.

There are currently 25 SWAS Warehouse Stationery Stores operating across New Zealand.

Active subsidiaries
The Warehouse Group currently owns three primary brand subsidiaries.

The Warehouse
The primary and central store for the Group, founded in 1982 by Sir Stephen Tindall, is known as The Warehouse. It offers a wide range of essential items including sports equipment, gardening equipment, and furniture. Due to their branding and distinctive red-colored buildings, The Warehouse's stores are commonly referred to as "Red Sheds" within the organization and in New Zealand. They primarily compete with Kmart in the discount department store sector, as well as with other specialized retailers such as hardware stores like Mitre 10 and Bunnings Warehouse, automotive parts retailers like Repco and Supercheap Auto, electronics and homeware retailers like Farmers, Harvey Norman, and JB Hi-Fi, and grocery stores like Woolworths New Zealand and Foodstuffs.

Warehouse Stationery
Warehouse Stationery is a large store containing a variety of different products with a blue color, similar to Officeworks in Australia or OfficeMax in America. It offers a wide range of products across multiple categories, including office supplies, school supplies, fashion stationery, technology, furniture, art & craft, and ink & toner. In the books and stationery market, it competes with Paper Plus and Whitcoulls, while in the electronics sector, it faces competition from retailers such as JB Hi-Fi and Harvey Norman. In the business and stationery online space, it competes with OfficeMax.

Warehouse Stationery provides customers with a BizRewards membership, allowing them to shop and collect rewards points at both The Warehouse and Warehouse Stationery stores nationwide, as well as online. Additionally, by choosing a Credit Account membership, customers can collect points in-store at Noel Leeming.

The first Warehouse Stationery branch opened in 1991, and the company has since grown from 8 stores in 1995 to 70 stores spanning from Kerikeri to Invercargill as of 2019.

Noel Leeming
Noel Leeming is a retail electronics chain that specializes in selling a wide range of products, including computers, household appliances, TVs, and audio equipment. With 71 stores, including 20 in Auckland, Noel Leeming offers a larger selection of higher-value electronic goods compared to other chains under The Warehouse Group.

In addition to its retail operations, Noel Leeming operates Tech Solutions, a service that provides support, installation, and learning assistance for technology users. This service caters to both in-store and in-home customers, offering comprehensive electronics and whiteware support.

The Warehouse Group Financial Services Ltd
The Warehouse Group Financial Services Limited was a joint venture that was formed in 2001 following the joint acquisition of Diners Club New Zealand by The Warehouse Group and Westpac Banking Corporation.

The Warehouse Group Financial Services Limited provides consumer credit cards and insurance through The Warehouse brand and distribution channels. In the 2014 Annual Report, it is stated that The Group holds a 49% minority share in this financial arm of TW Group with Westpac holding a 51% majority share.

On 1 October 2015 TW Group announced the acquisition of the remaining 51% of TW Group Financial Services from Westpac. The acquisition cost $7.3 million (NZD). Later in the release TW Group also announce their plans to expand the unit not by acquisition but by internal expansion.

In July 2017, less than two years following the acquisition from Westpac, The Warehouse Group announced the sale of the financial services division. The division had been slow to return a profit and returned a bigger loss then expected. The division was sold to FinanceNow, a division of SBS Bank.

Bond and Bond
Bond & Bond (stylised as Bond+Bond) was a retail electronics store founded by Enoch Bond, in Silverdale, Auckland in 1875. The store opened its first home appliance branch in Auckland in 1894. It was previously a subsidiary of the Noel Leeming Group before the group's acquisition by The Warehouse Group in 2012.

The chain had 31 stores in 2008. It had 24 stores in early 2013, including ten in Auckland.

In 2013, Bond & Bond was merged into Noel Leeming as part of a decision to provide a clear focus on the flagship Noel Leeming brand. Bond & Bond remained as an online clearance website until its closure in 2014.

R&R Sport
R&R Sport was an independent outdoor chain established in Dunedin Central in 1981. By 2014, it had 10 stores, including two in Auckland.

In 2014, The Warehouse Group took over the chain and rebranded its stores as Torpedo 7.

Torpedo7
Torpedo7 is a multi-channel subsidiary that owns and operates several online stores, including Torpedo7 (a retailer of sports and outdoor equipment), 1-day.co.nz (an online daily deals site), and Number One Fitness (which sells exercise equipment).

Founded in 2004 by mountain bike enthusiast Luke Howard-Willis and his father, Guy Howard-Willis, Torpedo7 is based in Hamilton, New Zealand. In 2013, The Warehouse Group purchased a 51% stake in the company for NZ$33 million. It now holds full ownership through Torpedo7's parent company, Boye Developments Limited. Despite being fully owned by The Warehouse Group, Torpedo7 operates as an independent business.

In October 2014, seven R&R Sport stores, which were previously acquired by The Warehouse Group in December 2013, were rebranded as Torpedo7. This expansion included the addition of two new physical stores, marking Torpedo7's entry into the retail of physical stores. R&R Sport was originally established in 1981 in Dunedin as Recycled Recreation, a store specializing in second-hand sports gear.

In February 2024 The Warehouse Group sold Torpedo7 for $1 to Tahua Partners.

TheMarket
TheMarket is an online shopping platform that operates as an online marketplace, offering products from over 250 retailers and brands worldwide. Similar to Amazon, TheMarket provides a wide range of items for purchase. The platform is headquartered in Newmarket, Auckland, and is part of The Warehouse Group's digital transformation strategy, which began in February 2017. The initiative aimed to invest in the digital future of retail.

Under the leadership of Chief Executive Justus Wilde, a global online retail expert, TheMarket team started working on the project in early 2018. With a startup mindset, they successfully launched the mobile-first platform on 1 August 2019 after a beta testing period in July. TheMarket collaborated with various retailers and brands, establishing partnerships to offer a diverse product selection.

TheMarket primarily operates using a drop-shipping business model. This means that third-party business-to-consumer (B2C) retailers list their branded products on the platform, and orders are dispatched directly by the retailers themselves. Although TheMarket holds some inventory, its main focus is on facilitating transactions between customers and retailers.

Since its launch, TheMarket has steadily grown its retailer base. Starting with 100+ retailers in August 2019, it expanded to 200+ retailers by November 2019. The platform aims to reach 400+ retailers by early 2020. In November 2019, TheMarket introduced its subscription program called TheMarket Club, which offers benefits such as free shipping, streaming services, and other features inspired by global giant Amazon.

To enhance convenience for customers, TheMarket utilizes an organized network of "MarketPoint" sites within The Warehouse Group's existing 242 physical locations across New Zealand. These MarketPoint sites can be found in The Warehouse, Warehouse Stationery, Noel Leeming, and Torpedo7 stores. Additionally, Rural MarketPoint sites are operated by FarmSource in partnership with Fonterra. Currently, there are 72 MarketPoint sites available, and plans are in place to expand to 300 nationwide. MarketPoint sites allow customers to collect and return goods purchased from TheMarket, similar to services offered by Amazon Hub or ASOS.com’s Click and Collect.

In March 2024 The Warehouse said that it had intentions to either sell or close TheMarket by the end of the year.

Financial results
The Warehouse went public in 1995. Since then the stock has climbed from $1.29 to $5.54 in 2005 then to $2.605 as of 8 January 2015. During 2005, the stock dropped dramatically due to worse than expected results from the Australian operation.

In the financial year ended September 2015, The Warehouse Group reported a revenue of NZ$2.77 billion (up 4.6% on the previous financial year) and profits of NZ$57.1 million (down nearly 6% on the last financial year). Online sales made up NZ$150 million of their revenue – a rise of nearly 800% from just NZ$18.8 million in 2011, though still barely 0.56% of their total sales. While The Warehouse and Warehouse Stationery recorded strong profit growth, the Noel Leeming electronics store division reported a drop in profit of 43% (partly due to one-off rebranding costs). The Torpedo7 Group (including Torpedo7, R&R Fitness, Shotgun Supplements and No.1 Fitness) recorded a profit just above break-even, hit by change and rebranding costs. Meanwhile, the Warehouse Financial Services division recorded a $1.9 million loss, "in line with expectations".

title: The Warehouse Group


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Talk:WE Charity

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Michalisk22.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 12:34, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Criticism?
Where is the criticism section? Plenty here: http://www.canadalandshow.com/craig-kielburger-founded-we-to-fight-child-labour-now-the-we-brand-promotes-products-made-by-children/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.246.134.118 (talk) 03:00, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

The article should cover alleged silencing of non-white voices: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/we-charity-amanda-maitland-1.5639716/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.13.184.98 (talk) 14:06, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Undisclosed paid editing
This article was affected by undisclosed paid editing. Please see for details. Feel free to remove anything from the article that is excessively promotional or improperly sourced. —  Newslinger  talk   06:26, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

 * This was archived to Conflict of interest/Noticeboard/Archive 157 -- 65.94.170.98 (talk) 04:22, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Criticism
Really glad to see this is finally a more balanced piece, and not just a puff piece. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.246.130.230 (talk) 02:44, 10 July 2020 (UTC) I concur with the comment at the top about adding a criticism section. There are some serious allegations at, http://www.canadalandshow.com/craig-kielburger-founded-we-to-fight-child-labour-now-the-we-brand-promotes-products-made-by-children/ 208.124.145.18 (talk) 22:39, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I've added back the info regarding the CERB and ties to the Trudeau family. It was removed by an IP citing it as opinionated and biased against the Liberal Party of Canada; as well as grammar and citation issues. I've fixed the latter, and the paragraph now references to Trudeau Family instead of the LPC. Any issues with that part? -- Endwealth (talk) 21:06, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I think this content is relevant and should be included in the article. That said, I am not sure a "criticism" section is the right place to do it.  Generally, we are supposed to avoid controversy sections and instead deal with such material in a the prose of a regular section where it can be balanced with other content.  I think we should work this matterial into another part of the article or perhaps a section about this program generally including positive, negative and other.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 21:14, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Makes sense. Maybe a "Grants and funding" section if not a dedicated CERB section --Endwealth (talk) 21:26, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
 * There are a few different criticisms/articles that are currently in there but not related to the government contract, along with stuff about voluntourism in general that should be included but isn't at the moment (eg  ). That said I'm also not a fan of "Criticism" sections as they quickly become a place where people cram in news stories and break the narrative flow of an article.Citing (talk) 19:11, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I am note sure we should be adding more "criticisms". I think maybe we should split these into new sections that can be neutral.  One section should likely be "Planned administration of the Canada Student Service Grant" (or something shorter).  The other items can be fit into related sections, or new ones can be created, but we should probably be moving away from a "criticisms" section.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 20:01, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

New separate article for the ongoing WE scandal?
Hello all, as the ongoing WE scandal grows, can we create a new article for that? Similar to the SNC-Lavalin affair. User:Rushtheeditor (talk) 23:35, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

 * Probably a good idea. It's starting to span five or six related articles. Maybe WE Charity scandal?Citing (talk) 18:04, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree with that Rushtheeditor (talk) 19:44, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree it is probably time to spin this content off into a stand alone article. It seems to be getting similar amount of coverage as the SNC-Lavalin affair, and I think the amount of content about the scandal in this article, should probably be summarized, condensed and otherwise paired back as not to give undue focus on this one scandal.  This article is about the Charity and all the work they do, not just one scandal, even if it is a rather notable one.  Best way to provide proper treatment of both the scandal and the charity is to spin this content off.  Since there are two Ethics investigations underway (and others in Parliamentary committees), I also think it is fair to say the scandal is going to continue to receive media coverage.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 22:18, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I would agree with though that perhaps WE Charity scandal is a better name.  I think the title has to include the name WE Charity as that is how it is being commonly referred to in the media.  The proposed title 2020 Canadian Government contract scandal is far too vague.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 22:56, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Agreed, believe that it is deserving of its own article at this point due to the amount of media and political coverage over the past weeks. idk, is we should refer to it as a scandal or affair though. Epluribusunumyall (talk) 21:48, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Possible options:
 * Maybe WE Charity controversy? I've seen that phrasing used by various non-partisan media. If it gets an "official" name later we can always just move the article.Citing (talk) 22:07, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I have boldly created it as a stub at WE Charity controversy. I tend to think we shouldn't shy away from calling these things scandals when the plain definition fits, but I can live with that title for now.  We should probably pare down the content here now, and include a link to the main article.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 18:43, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Template removed
I removed the "paid editor" template placed in April. There have been a number of edits made since then. I ran a Who Write This check on the page and found that 18 editors have worked on this article. User:MarthaLetter who contributed 23.8 % of the edits, was blocked as a sock puppet and is no longer editing. User:MarthaLetter contributed content to articles about other charities that is positive but not necessarily biased. There is no mention of MarthaLetter being a paid editor. No other user added more than 11% to the existing article and most added less than 2%.Oceanflynn (talk) 01:53, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
 * For reference, the relevant information from WP:COIN is here.Citing (talk) 14:19, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Size of the Government contract and cancellation section
This section was initially quite large before the We Charity controversy was split off into another article. Attempts were made to reduce the length after the new article was created. In my view, this section should be a short summary of the significant details of the scandal, with the detail being covered in the more expansive article. recently added a paragraph both here and in the main article, and then re-added it here after I removed it noting this is a summary. If we keep doing this sort of thing, this article will be a mirror of the article about the scandal. So the question is, is this a summary? Or are we including any and all information about WE Charity and the controversy here too?--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 18:35, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
 * A sentence summarizing the Ontario content would make sense. Otherwise this one will end up being massive and unreadable.Citing (talk) 20:05, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Replaced Globe and Mail link concerning Wikipedia sockpuppetry with an archive link
The current link is impossible to read unless you're a member of the site. TheKing'sMongrelSon (talk) 22:43, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi and thanks for highlighting this. References on Wikipedia are allowed as long as they're published, which includes sources behind paywalls, sources not available online etc. It's unfortunate but out of our control that many good sources of information are behind paywalls and other barriers. However, I've manually run the bot that archives links on this page so that an archive link is there in the reference. I've also expanded the citation a bit to include the title, newspaper name, authors and date – this helps people work out what the reference is if The Globe and Mail change their website layout and URL formats, or if they are trying to search on a database that includes newspaper articles (e.g. one you might have access to as a member of a university). Let me know if you have any questions! — Bilorv ( talk ) 01:03, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:WE Charity


text:
Z4 (computer)

The Z4 was arguably the world's first commercial digital computer, and is the oldest surviving programmable computer. It was designed, and manufactured by early computer scientist Konrad Zuse's company Zuse Apparatebau, for an order placed by Henschel & Son, in 1942; though only partially assembled in Berlin, then completed in Göttingen in the Third Reich in April 1945, but not delivered before the defeat of Nazi Germany, in 1945. The Z4 was Zuse's final target for the Z3 design. Like the earlier Z2, it comprised a combination of mechanical memory and electromechanical logic, so was not a true electronic computer.

Construction
The Z4 was very similar to the Z3 in its design but was significantly enhanced in a number of respects. The memory consisted of 32-bit rather than 22-bit floating point words. The Program Construction Unit (Planfertigungsteil) punched the program tapes, making programming and correcting programs for the machine much easier by the use of symbolic operations and memory cells. Numbers were entered and output as decimal floating-point even though the internal working was in binary. The machine had a large repertoire of instructions including square root, MAX, MIN and sine. Conditional tests included tests for infinity. When delivered to ETH Zurich in 1950 the machine had a conditional branch facility added and could print on a Mercedes typewriter. There were two program tapes where the second could be used to hold a subroutine. (Originally six were planned.)

In 1944, Zuse was working on the Z4 with around two dozen people, including Wilfried de Beauclair. Some engineers who worked at the telecommunications facility of the OKW also worked for Zuse as a secondary occupation. Also in 1944 Zuse transformed his company to the Zuse KG (Kommanditgesellschaft, i.e. a limited partnership) and planned to manufacture 300 computers. This way he could also request additional staff and scientists as a contractor in the Emergency Fighter Program. Zuse's company also cooperated with Alwin Walther's Institute for Applied Mathematics at the Technical University of Darmstadt.

To prevent it from falling into the hands of the Soviets, the Z4 was evacuated from Berlin in February 1945 and transported to Göttingen. The Z4 was completed in Göttingen in a facility of the Aerodynamische Versuchsanstalt (AVA, Aerodynamic Research Institute), which was headed by Albert Betz. But when it was presented to scientists of the AVA the roar of the approaching front could already be heard, so the computer was transported with a truck of the Wehrmacht to Hinterstein in Bad Hindelang in southern Bavaria, where Konrad Zuse met Wernher von Braun.

By 1947 it was possible for constants to be entered by the punched tape.

Use after World War II
In 1949, the Swiss mathematician Eduard Stiefel, after coming back from a stay in the US where he inspected American computers, visited Zuse and the Z4. When he formulated a differential equation as a test, Zuse immediately programmed the Z4 to solve it. Stiefel decided to acquire the computer for his newly founded Institute for Applied Mathematics at the ETH Zurich. It was delivered to ETH Zurich in 1950.

In 1954, Wolfgang Haack tried to obtain the Z4 for the Technical University of Berlin, but it was instead transferred to the Institut Franco-Allemand des Recherches de St. Louis (ISL, Franco-German Institute of Research) in France, where it was in use until 1959, under its technical head Hubert Schardin. Today, the Z4 is on display in the Deutsches Museum in Munich. The Z4 inspired the ETH to build its own computer (mainly by Ambros Speiser and Eduard Stiefel), which was called ERMETH, an acronym for Elektronische Rechenmaschine ETH ("Electronic Computing Machine ETH").

In 1950/1951, the Z4 was the only working digital computer in Central Europe, and the second digital computer in the world to be sold or loaned, beating the Ferranti Mark 1 by five months and the UNIVAC I by ten months, but in turn being beaten by the BINAC (although that never worked at the customer's site ). Other computers, all numbered with a leading Z, were built by Zuse and his company. Notable are the Z11, which was sold to the optics industry and to universities, and the Z22.

In 1955 the Z4 was sold to the French-German Research Institute of Saint-Louis (Institut franco-allemand de recherches de Saint-Louis) in Saint-Louis, close to Basel, and in 1960 transferred to the German Museum in Munich.

The Z4 was used for calculations for work on the Grande Dixence Dam.

Specifications

 * Frequency: (about) 40 Hz
 * Average calculation speed: 400 ms for an addition, 3 seconds for a multiplication. Approximately 1000 floating point arithmetic operations on average an hour.
 * Programming: holes in 35 mm film stock, punched on a programming machine
 * Input: Decimal floating point numbers, punch tape
 * Output: Decimal floating point numbers, punch tape or Mercedes typewriter
 * Word length: 32 bits floating point
 * Elements: (about) 2,500 relays, 21 step-wise relays
 * Memory: Mechanical memory from the Z1 and Z2 (64 words, 32 bit)
 * Power consumption: (about) 4 kW

title: Z4 (computer)


text:
Talk:Malapropism

Cleaning up the examples
Per Wikipedia's Manual of Style, "Articles are intended to consist primarily of prose, though they may contain lists." Articles written in prose style, as this one is, can include a list of examples to help illustrate a point, but such lists should be discriminate, well-defined, and reasonably short.

I am reducing the number of examples on this list to make it useful and illustrative. As with everything on Wikipedia, other editors may disagree with my choices and are free to change the page, for example substituting other examples or even adding more. It is also possible that the long list of examples could be spun out into a stand-alone list in a separate article (subject to Wikipedia's policies on notability, verifiability, etc.). Any editor making such changes is kindly asked to explain her or his choices on this talk page, or at least in edit summaries. Thanks, Cnilep (talk) 00:50, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

 * Australian PM Tony Abbott's "suppository of wisdom" quote is probably a better known example than the New Scientist one. I'm amazed there's no mention of George Dubya Bush, he was a walking one-man suppository of wisdom.Gymnophoria (talk) 16:35, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Cross-linguistic malapropism
Currently the section "Cross-linguistic Malapropisms" describes two loan words. Russian rynda "ship's bell" apparently comes from English ring the bell; Korean hwaiting! comes from English fighting. I don't think that either of these are actually malapropisms, though.

Neither of the sources cited for hwaiting! describes it as a malaprop. The Transparent Language blog (which, by the way, does not appear to be an entirely reliable source) says that the word came to Korean from English via Japanese, and that it is difficult to translate into English since it does not mean fighting. The other source is a bilingual dictionary that gives the word's meaning. There is no mention of malapropism in either.

The sources for rynda are written in Russian and German. Neither mentions malapropism (at least according to Google Books), but that is not surprising as they are not written in English.

So far there is no reliable source saying that cross-linguistic malapropism is a recognized category of speech error or joke. Cnilep (talk) 03:07, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Nuclear vs. Nuculer
The example of "nuclear" vs. "nuculer" isn't a real malapropism; it's just a mispronunciation/alternate pronunciation, depending on which dictionary you're looking at. Either way, "nuculer" isn't a word on its own, so it doesn't fit the definition. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 21:40, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
 * It's actually more of a dialect word (possibly in Southern American English), but yes, still not a malapropism. You need two (different) words for a malapropism.--Auric (talk) 22:43, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The other example added by the same editor is "truthiness": again, I'd disagree as an example of malapropism, since it's just a variation of "truth" rather than a misused word or combination of words. I suppose "wikiality" could count, though, if "groinecologist" does. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 22:46, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Truthiness is a word created by Stephen Colbert. As the article says, "Simply making up a word does not qualify as a malapropism, but a neologism." Arguably, groinecologist does not meet the definition of malapropism on this page, either; it was created by the writers of All in the Family. The cited source, however, refers to this sort of word as "Archie's malapropisms" (e.g. p. 482). Paul Escholz and Alfred Rosa (1972) used the label Bunkerism to describe malapropisms-via-blending by Archie Bunker. This term seems not to have caught on very strongly (and I no longer have my old copy of the article), though a Google Book search for Bunkerism Escholz Rosa does find a dozen or more books citing or referring to the original article, a few of them by Rosa and/or Escholz. Cnilep (talk) 01:34, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Bunkerisms and Malapropisms
A section of this article was recently re-written explaining why the word groinicology is not a malapropism. The explanation, however, does not cite any reliable sources. It refers to this article with a parenthetical (see above), but unfortunately the definition of a malapropism in the article does not cite any independent sources, either.

Furthermore, the article that is cited in this section actually says, "Archie's malapropisms have as their end-term not the endless rebuilding of sameness within change on a paronomastic ground but the complete undifferentiation [sic] that he dreads" (Shapiro & Shapiro 2005, 482; emphasis added). The authors are not talking about the word groinicology, but they do call Bunker's characteristic speech errors malapropisms.

As noted above, Rosa and Escholz (1972) called this sort of blend a Bunkerism in their analysis of All in the Family. As I said before, I no longer have my copy of Rosa and Escholz 1972, but I find for instance this book via Google Books that conflates the two terms: "Alfred Rosa and Paul Escholz list the many malapropisms (Bunkerisms) that Archie Bunker used in that series" (Goldstein 2001, 69).

Let's try to cite some actual sources on this issue, rather than rewriting the article based on our own understandings or unreliable sources. Cnilep (talk) 04:01, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Malapropism and irony
In seeking reliable sources for the assertion that intentional malapropism can be an example of irony, I have found a large number of texts that treat malapropism and irony, almost always along with other figures of speech (metaphor, tautology, Spoonerisms, etc.). Davidson (1986) also mentions irony, metaphor, and malapropisms as having similar relationships to truth. But none of the works I've consulted so far suggest that malapropism is essential to irony, nor irony to malapropism.

It strikes me that saying "malapropism can be an example of irony" is a bit like saying "words for precipitation can be examples of verbs". It's undeniably true – consider to rain, to snow, or to sleet – but is is also a somewhat trivial assertion.

In short, does it really deepen readers' understanding to read that malapropism as a figurative device can be used ironically? Cnilep (talk) 04:05, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Ringo
If Ringo is known to have had his real-world malapropisms turned into song titles wouldn't it fit in real life examples as Ringo is not fictitious character? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.47.70.89 (talk) 00:46, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

How can either of the two examples given be considered malapropisms? If others agree with me, perhaps this section should be removed.

216.36.132.66 (talk) 19:30, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

See this discussion from 2007 on whether or not these are malapropisms: User_talk:Grutness/archive24 Adrian Robson (talk) 20:30, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Has there ever been research into the causes?
Can't help wondering if there are reasons why some people are more prone to Malapropism than others, and if there has ever been research carried out. One can speculate as to possible causes - perhaps just the subtle differences between individuals as to how each person's brain is wired. Or does illness or injury have an effect? Or poor hearing? Is a more hyped-up personality more prone to errors due to trying to do things too quickly? Would be interested to know if anyone has done research on any of this. Could someone with knowledge about this perhaps add a paragraph about it to the article? Tesseract72 (talk) 12:30, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

-

In most cases, it is due to ignorance and/or laziness. Just look at the most recent generation to see this is true, as it is one of the defining characteristics of the latest generation. They either don't know which word is correct to use (ignorance), or, they don't know how to spell the other word (ignorance), or, they are too lazy to type/write a few extra letters and such (like when they type "your" in place of "you're"). A poor education system can be blamed for the ignorance, but not for the laziness. And, sadly, many of those who are ignorant and/or lazy continue to be so with typed/written words their whole lives.

Thibeinn (talk) 22:07, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

-

The Word's Origin
In the introductory section it reads: "The word "malapropism" comes from the French "mal à propos" meaning "inappropriate", and was personified by Richard Brinsley Sheridan in his comedy The Rivals (1775) as "Mrs. Malaprop", a character who habitually misused her words."

In the very next section, "Etymology," it reads: "The word "malapropism" (and its earlier variant, "malaprop") comes from a character named "Mrs. Malaprop" in Richard Brinsley Sheridan's 1775 play The Rivals who frequently misspeaks."

So, which is the chicken and which is the egg? 67.188.155.197 (talk) 08:49, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Removing suppositories
This example was added on 4 May 2014 by an anonymous user at IP 110.20.18.81; formatting was repaired by User:TheNervousOne.
 * The then-Australian Opposition Leader, Tony Abbott, made a similar gaffe addressing a a Melbourne gathering of Liberal Party faithful in 2013, telling the audience that "no one, however smart, however well educated, however experienced, is the suppository of all wisdom".

I removed the same Tony Abbott quote on 28 March 2014 because another paragraph in the article describes a similar substitution of suppository for repository. The older example also includes the malapropism Miss Marple-ism for malapropism.

I'm not sure whether these contributors didn't see the other example, or they were just keen to add a Tony Abbott gaffe. I think it's unnecessary to have two nearly identical examples. Cnilep (talk) 01:49, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes I was keen to add a Tony Abbott gaffe - not simply because it's Tony Abbott but also because a PM making a gaffe somehow gives it more relevance, or at least interest. But yes no probs with your deletion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alpalfour (talk • contribs) 02:44, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

I remember seeing Norm Crosby on the Johnny Carson Show in maybe the mid-60's. Crosby, the "Master of Malaprop", at one point called himself a "vast suppository of knowledge". That's the one thing that stuck with me, and I occasionally use it in a self-deprecating way in conversations when embarrassed about being a walking encyclopedia. 8) Perhaps replace the reference with a bit about Norm Crosby? Mvsmith (talk) 19:11, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Questionable Examples
From the paragraph on Rick Perry:

criticizing fellow presidential nominee Mitt Romney for the "heighth of hypocrisy" instead of "height of..."

This isn't a malapropism; that's just the way in which many people pronounce "height".

Similarly, the section on George Bush says,

"You helped our nation celebrate its bicentennial in 17-... in 1976," accidentally calling the Queen over two hundred years old.

Not only does that final clause seem rather childish and unnecessary, but I don't really see why this particular example is notable. A person started to get a number in the wrong order and corrected himself—this is a pretty common thing, I think. I think this example is about as much of a malapropism as saying, "I home went."

98.213.54.240 (talk) 13:29, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Officer Crabtree
How can this article not make a mention of Crabtree from British sitcom 'Allo 'Allo? A better exponent of the malapropism there has never been! 130.220.181.41 (talk) 00:28, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

I would also respect to see Leo Gorcey (Terrence Aloysius "Slip" Mahoney of "The Bowery Boys") mentioned here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.124.116.101 (talk) 01:04, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Why no etymology?
No etymology? In French malpropre meaning dirty. The right term would be "impropre" to say an "unsuitable" word. But I guess it's where it comes from. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.91.51.235 (talk) 12:13, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

 * The most common reason something doesn't exist on Wikipedia when it seems that it should is that nobody has written it yet. Please feel free to create an Etymology section. Reliable sourcing would be needed. HiLo48 (talk) 03:16, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

 * See the section Malapropism: the word comes from the name of a fictional character, Mrs. Malaprop. It is only indirectly related to French mal- "wrongly" and à propos "fitting; appropriate". Cnilep (talk) 06:39, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia all the way down?
Recently several citations were added, but I suspect some of these sources may actually have taken their information from earlier versions of this article. This seems like circular citation: Wikipedia citing published sources that use information from Wikipedia. As such, these are not really independent or useful to verify content. I will therefore remove the suspect sources. Cnilep (talk) 00:00, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Sounds Good on Paper (Horberry 2010) says, "Using obtuse (wide or dull) instead of acute (narrow or sharp) is not a malapropism;".
 * The 2009 version of this article said, "Using obtuse (wide or dull) instead of acute (narrow or sharp) is not a malapropism;".
 * Literary Devices (2021) cites three "common malapropism examples": "The magazine New Scientist reports one of its employees calling his colleague 'a suppository (i.e. repository) of knowledge.'; "Richard J. Daley, the former mayor of Chicago, is said to have called a ' tandem bicycle' a 'tantrum bicycle,'"; and "Bertie Ahern, the former Irish Taoiseach, is said to have given a warning to his country against 'upsetting the apple tart (i.e., apple cart)" etc.
 * The 2020 version of this article includes all three examples, with strikingly similar (though not identical) prose, and similar use of italics.

Philosohper Donald Davidson paraphrase
"Philosopher Donald Davidson has said that malapropisms show the complex process through which the brain translates thoughts into language."

I dont think this adds much to the article, especially within the intro section Sirsnowy7 (talk) 02:27, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Real Life Examples- Marjorie Taylor Greene
It is unclear if the currently listed examples regarding MTG are actual quotes from her speaking or examples of social media posts such as Tweets. If these are not direct speaking quotes, it is not a true malapropism. It should be considered as autocorrects or voice to text translations that were not proof read. I believe there is a difference between a malapropism and a “covfefe”. This is something for more experienced wiki editors to answer, but I wanted to raise the argument there may be issues with those examples as currently listed. 98.235.68.109 (talk) 03:33, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
 * If you check the references for each of the examples, they are things tyhat she has said, not things that were written. - Aoidh (talk) 03:38, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Was Al Gore really cereal?
(without text) --2A02:908:898:9780:3086:702E:A30:C223 (talk) 03:00, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

"Brexit means breakfast" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brexit_means_breakfast&redirect=no Brexit means breakfast] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. GnocchiFan (talk) 22:50, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Malapropism


text:
Talk:Church of the Holy Sepulchre

possible typo "Christian orthodoxs"
In the article it says Christian orthodoxs. Is that a typo or a way to spell the plural of the word orthodox?

Mount Moriah
This location is not on Mount Moriah, but on Zion and excluded Biblically from being the location. 2600:6C40:7E7F:F9E8:41B8:366E:1464:A94E (talk) 17:30, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Royal Crusader tombs
hi. Please do reverse your latest edit. You are presenting opinions as facts.

Judging by the latest research on what happened to the tombs of the female royals at the Tomb of Mary, where the Greeks did precisely that what Burton says, that is: throw them out and destroy them, it seems at least plausible that the same could have happened at the Holy Sepulchre. As long as there's no proof, your guess is as good as mine, anyway. And as they're digging around that area right now, we might (might) have a positive answer quite soon about the presence of human remains deep below the floor. No clarity about what the Greeks did though. But think of the fact that the only remains of the tombs are in the Greek Patriarchate's museum. And Burton came just a few decades after the events. Would a jury indight and sentence based on this? I don't know. Would I start a new Crimean War because of it? I'll totally leave that to comrade Vladimir Vladimirovich. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 22:12, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

PS: The Greek Orthodox did what they considered to be their historic right, taking back for ortho-doxy what Crusaders and later schismatics had stolen. As they did with the Latin-inscribed silver star at the Grotto of the Nativity and wherever else it was "needed". PC is totally out of place here, those were not woke times. Arminden (talk) 22:19, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

 * I see no reason to rely on Burton's book (she was not an historian, she was extraordinarily biased in other ways, her book is not a reliable source for anything except gossip and hearsay). The citations also must have become confused at some point, because they also (here and in the Baldwin IV article, at least) pointed to a page in one of Denys Pringle's books, which says nothing about the Greeks. The only reliable source that was cited here is the Re'em/Ingrand-Varenne/Berkovich article. They mention the anti-Greek gossip spread by the Latins, but I don't think it's appropriate to say it is undoubtedly true. If the recent archaeological work uncovers anything, we could of course add it here. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:58, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
 * See conclusion based on recovered remains and the work by Jacoby in Re'em, Caine, and Tchekhanovets (2022), pp. 28-29. Hardly any doubt in their mind. So: please do reverse edit, or even much better: re-edit using this sources (Re'em, Jacoby). Sorry, but I cannot do that properly right now. N.b.: 19th c. bias by Westerners doesn't mean the Greeks didn't remove the tombs, just that the tone is emotional and the historic perspectives are skewed. Fact as opposed to style. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 08:59, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Alright, I've made some edits that are more representative of what Re'em et al. say in the cited article. I'm not sure what you mean by "Re'em, Caine, and Tchekhanovets (2022)" - the link you gave is to the article that is already cited (Re'em, Ingrand-Varenne, Berkovich). Adam Bishop (talk) 17:21, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you.
 * I took the authors from the table of content, where the relevant pages, 28-29, would seem to correspond to the 1st article. But you're right. Arminden (talk) 05:50, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Useful Holy Sepulchre pictures
Our colleague Magnolia677 has removed from "External links" a website, NOT introduced by me, with excellent photos due to the fact that the website is of a commercial nature. I have just written to her and intend to revert her edit - once. Here is what I wrote:

I just recently removed a homepage of an actress-turned-real estate vendor because it was pure advertisement with no information value to the actress's Wiki article. So no need to convince me about such cases. But here
 * 1) it's a website with EXCELLENT PICTURES nobody else has, some from the current excavations!, which together are of GREAT BENEFIT TO THE USER.
 * 2) I have no connection to the website.
 * 3) It's in Polish, I understood nothing of the text, DIDN'T EVEN REALISE THE PICS ARE FOR SALE! So zero commercial benefit if user not Polish-speaker.

(B.t.w.: there is no price, no $ or € symbol, no icon of a shopping cart, NOTHING to indicate they're trying to sell anything! So actually quite stupid/useless as a sales platform, if indeed it is one?, on the WWW!)

I have ABSOLUTELY no interest in edit-warring on this. I'm just firmly convinced that the pics are of great benefit for users & editors accessing from home, and I know a lot about the site and I've been editing a lot at this article. So pls, leave it in.

Thank you! Arminden (talk) 12:36, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

1009: wrong refs

 * "Christian Europe reacted with shock: it was a spur to expulsions of Jews and, later on, the Crusades. [Ref1: Bokenkotter, Thomas (2004). A Concise History of the Catholic Church, page 155. Ref2: MacCulloch, Diarmaid (2009). A History of Christianity: The First Three Thousand Years, page 1339.]"

Both refs don't seem useful. Bokenkotter p. 155 mentions neither Hakim & 1009, nor the expulsion of Jews; MacCulloch p. 1339 is hard to find (e-book; the indicated URL, a search result, leads to table of content page referring to smth else), if page number added directly to URL (PA1339, RA1339) it leads to much earlier events, plus: searches for Hakim or 1009 are leading nowhere, access date is missing... The edit isn't trustworthy!

In short: two correct statements, but as of now completely unsourced.

PS: We know about the Crusades. Re. Jews, see for instace Persecutions in France (987–1137), in Limoges etc. Arminden (talk) 21:17, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Good catch. Is the text on the original diff any help? https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Church_of_the_Holy_Sepulchre&diff=prev&oldid=588107143 --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 23:02, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Of course, it's to the point & well sourced. Maybe too narrow (one very localised example), but w/o more research, that's what we have, and Wiki & decency rules oblige. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 00:34, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Move "2018 tax/land affair"
I very much doubt it should be placed under Status Quo: this connection was only claimed in a 2018 statement written by church leaders involved in the dispute and penned in a very rhetorical tone. The issue of land sales to commercial companies A) didn't, and cannot possibly affect in any way any right inscribed in the Status Quo regulations, as it didn't touch on any holy site at all, and B) if we are even to start talking of it here, although it has NO tangency with the Status Quo, property prices fell substantially as lease contracts approached end of their (50? 100-year?) duration and large numbers of house owners & tenants feared huge losses in property value or outright eviction. This concerning commercial ownership by the 2nd largest real estate owner in the country, i.e. the Greek Orthodox Church. In any less "holy" land, this wouldn't have made the int'l press, and if, then only in order to attack the hypocritical wolf-in-sheep's-skin ecclesiastical institution, see Vatical scandals.

The Ateret Kohanim purchase, which was a secret deal between two unpleasant parties, a Jewish-fundamentalist "all is ours" side, and a Greek "screw the Arabs" side, is also framed in rhetorical, propagandistic terms ("Christian access to HSC will be denied"). Access to the HSC is through 2 gates, the western one is nowhere next to the Ateret purchases (there's just a mosque there), while the other gate is just somewhat near, but in no way adjacent to the new Ateret grabs. So the usual PR BS, move along, nothing to see here. This in terms of Status Quo, not of aggressive expansion of ultranationalistic Jewish settler presence, and of interethnic and financing & administrative issues within the Orthodox Church.

Last not least: much of the land property of the Orthodox Church in Palestine is the result of purchases which postdate at least the 1750s firman, if not the 1850s follow-ups. They really aren't covered by any SQ clause, which only deal with holy sites, not with 19th-century real estate developments like the Muristan. The church leaders tried to use their only strong leverage by temporarily closing the HSC, but that's an artificial means of creating an otherwise inexistant connection.

So let's find another context for all this, preferably NOT in this article, and certainly not under Status Quo. Arminden (talk) 01:35, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Here is an interesting article with a video. "Entire neighborhood behind one door in the Old City of Jerusalem:
 * 10 families, 100 kids, 70 students, a yeshiva, and a synagogue - all tucked away in a hidden Jewish neighborhood in the Christian Quarter."
 * Arutz Sheva Staff, May 29, 2017. They call it Naot David (typo, actually Ne'ot David or Neot David), and the building previously housed the Orthodox Saint John's Hospice. "(T)he structure which now houses Naot David is technically owned by the Greek Orthodox Church, but rights for its use were purchased by Ateret Cohanim in the 1990s for some 3.6 million shekels, some $950,000 at the time."
 * The video shows at 1:32 a door with a window towards the Mosque of Omar. The bell tower and dome of the HSC are visible behind & to the right of the minaret. This can help with locating the exact footprint of the building on C. Schick's Muristan plan. PASSIA has started doing it, see their plan on p. 26 (text at pp. 37-38), but that dot, No. 11, is too vague.
 * The 360° photo here is useful. The building which is actually facing the Parvis, or courtyard of the HSP, is rather small and houses an Orthodox chapel, a dependency of the Greek Gethsimane monastery (see door lintel with Greek inscription, "Metochion Gethsimanis"). Left of it is the eastern gate. Outside the gate, inside the same small house, is the HSC's police station. So the Ateret settlers are far from controlling the gates.
 * I don't intend to pay the NYT fee, but there's a 1990 article about Ne'ot David stating that "(t)he settlement is a four-building complex of 72 rooms renamed Neot David", so it must be checked which the other 3 buildings are, to be 100% sure.
 * There's a Wikimedia category on Neot David here. Hebrew Wikipedia has an article which adds very little to these other sources.
 * Who can help with the NYT "4 buildings" article? Arminden (talk) 12:34, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The NYT article has been at the Wayback Machine since May 2015: https://web.archive.org/web/20150525195841/https://www.nytimes.com/1990/04/13/world/jerusalem-melee-with-christian-prelates.html Mcljlm (talk) 20:24, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * thanks! Read it now. Not sure I'm any wiser. The "4 buildings comprising 72 rooms" might well be just one house with 4 wings around a courtyard, or 4 connected houses in a row.
 * I can't find the right map. Schick's gets cut exactly at the wrong place, see here: we need what's behind (S of) Omar's Mosque! It must be behind the "Omar-Moschee: Minaret" (seen on the left in the video) and the "Gethsemane-Kloster" (metochion), probably adjacent & to the S of the latter. I give up. Arminden (talk) 21:36, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Church of the Holy Sepulchre


text:
Talk:Demiurge

Christian Bible
@GreatLeader1945

Since this seems to be a rather extensive discussion, I don't think it should be discussed on edit summaries.

I am replying to "The God in Judaism and Christianity IS the same god, that's basic theology 101. In Christianity he's Triune, where the 'godhead' is 'God the Father', which is the same 'person' (cf. Trinity#One God in three persons) as Yahweh in the OT. It's absolutely untrue that "the Christian version of the Bible was made later, after the gnostic movements disappeared". The article on Gnosticism explicitly says the opposite - Gnosticism flourished AFTER Christianity emerged - in the 1st-4th c. CE "

I am really not an expert on matters of Christianity, only visited some lectures on early Christianity for the sake of History of Religion a few years ago, and read some Docetic literature, such as the Nag Hamadi libary. So, maybe I am prone to some misconceptions. Nontheless, I want to note my confusion about certain assertions here.

1) That the Jewish and the Christian God are the same. This hold true for the idea of Judeo-Christian and Abrahamic religion. Please be aware, I am talking about the concept, not the religions themselves. I don't want to go into ontology, since I don't believe either god truely exists, I just "determine" these deities as concepts by what people ascribed to them at a certain time period (genealogy of ideas). But before adressing this point, I would like to adress the second one, because I think my objection towards 1) relies on 2)

2) I wouldn't say that "Christianity" existed prior to Gnosticism. When we speak about Christianity, we usually refer to a theological framework which relies on the canonical Bible. According to the article, and it is well cited, "The canon of the Catholic Church was affirmed by the Council of Rome (AD 382), the Synod of Hippo (AD 393), the Council of Carthage (AD 397), the Council of Carthage (AD 419), the Council of Florence (AD 1431–1449) and finally, as an article of faith, by the Council of Trent (AD 1545–1563). Those established the Catholic biblical canon consisting of 46 books in the Old Testament and 27 books in the New Testament for a total of 73 books"

There are also disagreements in the first centuries about what the Biblical canon consists of: "Marcion of Sinope was the first Christian leader in recorded history (though later considered heretical) to propose and delineate a uniquely Christian canon (c. 140). This included 10 epistles from Paul, as well as an edited version of the Gospel of Luke, which today is known as the Gospel of Marcion. By doing this, he established a particular way of looking at religious texts that persists in Christian thought today. After Marcion, Christians began to divide texts into those that aligned well with the "canon" (meaning a measuring line, rule, or principle) of accepted theological thought and those that promoted heresy. This played a major role in finalizing the structure of the collection of works called the Bible. It has been proposed that the initial impetus for the proto-orthodox Christian project of canonization flowed from opposition to the list produced by Marcion."

With that in mind, I would like to add, that "Gnosticism" as opposed to "Christianity" is a later phenomena. Thus, not Gnosticism is a later development, but designating heretized/unwanted Christian groups are. Origen called the "Gnostic Sethians/Ophites" Christians back then. "According to all other authorities the Ophites claimed to be Christians. Elsewhere Origen classes the Ophites as heretics of the graver sort with the followers of Marcion, Valentinus, Basilides, and Apelles (Commentary on Matthew 3:852)" (Ophites). Probably, Valentinism, Marcionism, Pauline Christianity, Sethianism, Ebionites, were all competing religious sects claiming to derive from Jesus, resulting in one victor who denounced every other sect as "Gnotic".

As stated by 1), since Christianity was not monolithic in the early years, and where was no "Christian Bible", the Gnostics couldn't refer to the God of the Christian Bible as Demiurge, because such a Christian Bible didn't exist. The Christian Bible only formed later, and with that, the Christian God only formed after Gnostics critizied the deity of the Hebrew Bible.

If this doesn't convince you, I would like to at least merge "Hebrew Bible" and "Christian Bible" into simply "the Bible". Because both that the distinction is unnecessary then, as well as this is playing save, as we don't need to find an agreement on at which time the Christian Bible came into existence. VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 14:18, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

 * This is exactly what the Gnostics disputed. The term Demiurge was created to distinguish the Gnostic Christian God from the Hebrew God: Gnosticism did not agree they were the same. Only later Christian doctrine makes this claim and it is misleading to suggest otherwise. The Gnostics believed that the Hebrew god was evil, and that Christ represented the true god and came to liberate the Jews from their evil god. That later Christians rejected this view is not relevant here and confuses the issue. Skyerise (talk) 17:31, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Demiurge


text:
Stack Rock Fort

Stack Rock Fort is a fort built on a small island in the Milford Haven Waterway, Pembrokeshire, Wales. A 3-gun fort was built between 1850 and 1852, and then upgraded from 1859 to 1871 with a new building that completely encased the original gun tower. It is now a Grade II* listed building and a scheduled monument (registered SAM number PE334).

History
A fortification at Stack Rock was first proposed by Thomas Cromwell in 1539 to protect the waterway, although this would not actually come to fruition at the time. Similar proposals were made in 1748 when Lewis Morris carried out a survey of Milford Haven, reporting on shipwrecks and navigation and recommending that a small fort be built here. Another survey followed in 1817. The Royal Dockyard at Pembroke Dock was felt to be in need of defence from the sea, The result was a tower mounting three guns, similar to the two towers in Pembroke Dock. The tower was oval in section, with a maximum diameter of 55 feet and a maximum height of 30 feet. Construction commenced in 1850, being completed in 1852.

In 1858, the first appearance of the FRENCH IRONCLAD Gloire rendered the tower and its guns obsolete, so it was decided to completely surround it with a new battery. The original design was for two decks each of 19 casemates and 16 open air guns above, 54 guns in total, and built mainly of limestone. However, after the foundations had been started in 1861, the design was amended to have stronger granite piers supporting iron gun shields. The basements and magazines had been completed in 1863, when the design was altered again, for 16 large guns on a single floor of casemates in the front and seven smaller guns on two floors in the gorge, the rear of the fort facing into the Haven. The top floor was built as accommodation intended for 4 officers and 152 men. On the roof of the fort, three gun turrets each with two huge RML 12-inch 25-ton gun were planned, but never installed. This scheme was finally completed in 1871. The usual peacetime garrison was one officer and thirty men. Disarmed in 1929, it was first placed on the market in 1932 and sold for £160. In 2005 it was sold once more for £150,000.

Concerns over the security of a nearby LNG jetty were raised in 2013, following the discovery of potential trespasser activity.

The fort was sold again in 2020 to a private owner for an undisclosed amount. Land Registry records show that it was sold in January 2021 for £191,000 to community interest company (CIC) Anoniiem.

Armament
The original tower housed three 32-pounder guns, as well as a single 12-pounder for protection of the walls of the dock. From 1859 to 1871, the armaments were changed to sixteen 10-inch and seven 9-inch Rifled Muzzle Loaders. These were replaced with four 12-pounder QF (quick firing) guns in 1902. A small number of men manned the fort during World War I and by this time, only two 12-pounder QF guns remained.

title: Stack Rock Fort


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Eglinton River

The Eglinton River is located in the region of Southland in the southwest of New Zealand. It flows through Fiordland National Park for 50 km. Its headwaters are at Lake Gunn, 25 km east of Milford Sound, and it flows generally south before entering Lake Te Anau along the lake's eastern shore opposite the entrance to North Fiord.

For much of its length the Eglinton is accompanied by the only road in the region, State Highway 94 from Te Anau to Milford Sound. The southern end of the Milford Track is located close to the Eglinton River.

The first Europeans to explore the river were David McKellar and George Gunn, in 1861. The river was named after Archibald Montgomerie, 13th Earl of Eglinton by James McKerrow, an Otago surveyor. The road which is now Highway 94 was built in 1935, opening up the valley to visitors.

The river flow is small leaving Lake Gunn but is greatly increased by Cascade Creek, which joins it just south of the lake. There are short gorges between Lake Gunn and Cascade Creek, and below the junction with Walker Creek. While the river has been kayaked from Cascade Creek, there is not usually sufficient water at this point and whitewater kayaking is more common from the junction with the East Branch. Rainbow and brown trout are available in the river up to Cascade Creek. Deer are hunted throughout the area, and wild pigs can be found near the river mouth.

title: Eglinton River


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Big Five (Hawaii)

The Big Five (Nā Hui Nui Elima) was the name given to a group of what started as sugarcane processing corporations that wielded considerable political power in the Territory of Hawaii during the early 20th century, and leaned heavily towards the Hawaii Republican Party. The Big Five were Castle & Cooke, Alexander & Baldwin, C. Brewer & Co., American Factors (now Amfac), and Theo H. Davies & Co. The extent of the power that the Big Five had was considered by some as equivalent to an oligarchy. Attorney General of Hawaii Edmund Pearson Dole, referring to the Big Five, said in 1903: "There is a government in this Territory which is centralized to an extent unknown in the United States, and probably almost as centralized as it was in France under Louis XIV."

History
Though commercial sugar production began in the first years of the 1800s, the industry remained relatively minor until the Reciprocity Treaty of 1875. This treaty provided duty-free trade of sugar between the Kingdom of Hawaii and the United States, and it generated massive disruptions in the sugar industry. Plantation growth and consolidation soon followed, with the number of plantations falling from 79 in 1875 to just 20 in 1883. Prior to this disruption, the agencies played a much more limited role in Hawaiian industry. They served primarily to add liquidity to an agricultural industry with long growing periods (18–24 months) by both providing credit against future sales and providing transportation to foreign markets and equipment procurement. With the growth pressure imposed by the Reciprocity Treaty, however, plantations required capital infusions in order to expand their cultivation into more marginal lands, leading to increased reliance on the agencies for credit. With Hawaii's annexation by the United States, this change was locked in as sugarcane plantations gained a new infusion of investment. By eliminating tariffs imposed on sugarcane producers by the United States, planters had more money to spend on equipment, land and labor. Increased capital resulted in increased production. Five kingdom-era corporations benefited from annexation, becoming multimillion-dollar conglomerations that controlled 90% of the sugar business. The companies colluded to keep the prices on their goods and services high. Their profits skyrocketed even more. Soon, the executives of the Big Five sat on each other's boards of directors. With economic power came political power, and the families usually favored the Republican Party of Hawaii.

During the Democratic Revolution of 1954, the unions inflicted a decisive blow against the giants, and when the sugar industry declined after Hawaii became a state in 1959, so did each of the Big Five companies. The greatest post-statehood challenge came as the U.S. Department of Justice challenged the ownership of Matson Navigation Company by four of the five companies (all except Theo H. Davies). The lawsuit was settled when the four companies agreed not to share officers, executives, and directors. Alexander and Baldwin eventually bought out the other three stakes in Matson in 1964.

In the 1970s, as sugar plantations closed, many of the Big Five companies themselves were bought out. Where the companies are now:

 * Theo H. Davies & Co. was bought in 1973 by Scottish-controlled Hong Kong firm Jardine Matheson. Until December 2004 it owned the Pizza Hut and Taco Bell franchises in Hawaii. The sole remaining unit is its travel agency which was spun off and sold to management.
 * C. Brewer was bought in 1978 by Philadelphia-based IU International Corporation, and was later bought out by its management in 1986. In 2001, the company's shareholders voted to liquidate the company over several years.
 * Castle & Cooke merged with Flexi-Van Corporation, owned by David H. Murdock, in 1985. Murdock became its chairman after the merger, then took full control in 2000. It still owns large portions of Central Oahu and the Iwilei area of Honolulu around the former Dole Food Company pineapple cannery. Until recently, Castle & Cooke owned nearly all of the island of Lānai; in June 2012, Oracle CEO Larry Ellison bought their share for approximately 500 million dollars.
 * Amfac was bought out in 1988 by Chicago-based JMB Realty. In 2002, Amfac declared Chapter 11 bankruptcy and emerged as Kaanapali Land, LLC. It owns 5,000 acres (20 km²) in West Maui. Its department store, Liberty House, was sold to Federated Department Stores and is now part of the Macy's chain.
 * Alexander & Baldwin diversified and remains in business. Today it owns about 91,000 acres (370 km²) of land and is the fifth-largest landowner in the state.

title: Big Five (Hawaii)


text:
Robert Coates (politician)

Robert Carman Coates (March 10, 1928 – January 12, 2016) was a Canadian politician and Cabinet minister.

Early life and education
Coates was born in Amherst, Nova Scotia, the son of a cattle buyer.

In 1951 Coates received a Bachelor of Arts in Political Science from Mount Allison University in nearby Sackville, New Brunswick. In 1954, Coates graduated from Dalhousie Law School in Halifax. Prior to his election, Coates was a lawyer and member of the Nova Scotia Barristers' Society.

Political career
Coates was first elected to the House of Commons of Canada in the 1957 election as the Progressive Conservative Member of Parliament (MP) for Cumberland, Nova Scotia. Coates was a backbencher during the John Diefenbaker and Joe Clark governments. He was appointed to the Cabinet of Brian Mulroney as Defence Minister following the Tory victory in the 1984 election.

Coates's main initiative was the re-introduction of separate uniforms for the naval, land and air branches of the military. Liberal Paul Hellyer had unified the Royal Canadian Navy, Canadian Army and Royal Canadian Air Force into an integrated Canadian Forces with a single uniform in 1967. Hellyer had scrapped the traditional British style uniforms and ranks of the Canadian Army, Royal Canadian Navy and Royal Canadian Air Force. The new uniforms resembled those of the US air force.

Coates resigned from the Cabinet on February 12, 1985, after it emerged that he visited several strip clubs during a trip to West Germany in November 1984. Coates did not run in the 1988 election.

Death
Coates died in Halifax on January 12, 2016, after a short illness, at the age of 87.

Personal life
In 1954, Coates married Mary Blanche Wade of Perth Junction, New Brunswick. The couple had two children, David Wade and Jodi.

Archives
There is Robert C. Coates fonds at Library and Archives Canada.

title: Robert Coates (politician)


text:
They Might Be Giants In... Holidayland

They Might Be Giants In... Holidayland (sometimes referred to simply as Holidayland) is a holiday-themed EP released by American rock band They Might Be Giants in 2001 under Restless Records. The recording consists of: "Santa Claus", a Sonics cover originally released on Emusic.com's TMBG Unlimited service; "Santa's Beard", first released on Lincoln and later Then: The Earlier Years; "Feast of Lights", also from TMBG Unlimited, and appearing on the compilation Festival of Lights 2; "Careless Santa", from Mono Puff's album Unsupervised; and "O Tannenbaum", from 1993's O Tannenbaum EP and, later, TMBG Unlimited.

The EP itself is not a complete collection of holiday songs by the band, leaving out "Christmas Cards" (the original B-side of "O Tannenbaum") and the Dial-A-Song exclusive "We Just Go Nuts At Christmas Time."

Track listing

 * 1) "Santa Claus" (Gerry Roslie) – 2:55
 * 2) "Santa's Beard" – 1:55
 * 3) "Feast of Lights" – 2:35
 * 4) "Careless Santa" (featuring Yuval Gabay) (J. Flansburgh) – 2:19
 * 5) "O Tannenbaum" (trad.) – 2:05

All songs written by They Might Be Giants unless noted.

title: They Might Be Giants In... Holidayland


text:
User:RoyBoy

Working on: Sandbox – SCI/TECH Eyes on: Signpost – Admins – Test templates – Scripts Subpages: WikiHistory – Users – External links

I'm an information addict... so it was inevitable I'd find myself here. I live in Ontario, Canada and my interests include: documentaries, films, science, history, psychology, calisthenics, debating and racket sports when the mood strikes me. I particularly enjoy controversial subjects where free and unconventional thinking are needed; so I'm a big fan of string theory and my favorite non-fiction book is The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes.

I'm a pro-choice agnostic who believes in eternal recurrence and frequents Newspeak Dictionary, BR-Insight, alt.fan.blade-runner and TheBible.net... or I did until they shut it down because of disagreement with their views. *shrug*

I became a weak atheist (from strong) after learning about the bicameral mind. This indicates god is not a deity, but a real subconscious part of ourselves in the non-dominant "creative" hemisphere, buried as a result of the "logical/language" hemisphere becoming dominant as a result of learning complex language(s) and social behaviors modern civilization requires.

This forces our neurology to cope with large amounts of structured information -- suppressing the god side of the brain -- while still being there if summoned by meditation, prayer, drugs or seizures. Stress is correlated to substance abuse, perhaps this goes beyond escapism and is a sub-conscious desire to re-balance the hemispheres. Throwbacks to the god brain can be seen in hypnosis, schizophrenia, speaking in tongues, psychosis and even earworms being a remnant of voice commands a person is compelled to follow. These result in "aberrant" (by modern standards) childlike neural activity where the creative hemisphere becomes temporarily dominant. It fits with approaching God as a "child" Mark 10:13-16, children having imaginary friends and being natural prophets of God, and if too prophetic they could be killed for blasphemy.

Thanks for your interest and I hope my addiction can be put to some use around here.

Wiki introspection
I'd like to thank Severa for zer help and input on the abortion topic. Unfortunately Severa retired in Dec.2007 and is a Gold Standard example of Wikipedia losing experienced contributors.

Favorites
My user page has been vandalized many times, but this one by User:68.161.199.102 is my favorite.

Films: Blade Runner - Munich - Koyaanisqatsi - Memento - Fight Club - Donnie Darko - Ghost in the Shell - The Princess Bride - Leon: The Professional - The Lord of the Rings movie trilogy - Brazil - Falling Down

Documentaries: The Corporation - Frontline - Wide Angle - Commanding Heights - RACE: The Power of an Illusion - Hijacking Catastrophe - Sicko

Books: The Human Animal - Paris 1919 - HHGG - Asimov's Foundation series - A Million Open Doors

TV: BBC World News - MythBusters - Uncommon Knowledge - Law & Order - Nova

Food: Pomegranates - Miss Vicky's: Sea Salt Chips - Carrot Muffins - Things that go with Ketchup - Popcorn

Music: Nirvana - No Doubt - Portishead

Earworms:
 * "So fresh, and so clean clean."
 * "I’ve never seen a man eat so many chicken wings."

Sayings:

"Money obfuscates truth for aggravating periods of time." – RoyBoy

"Clarity outweighs truth ... ... unless you have an attention span." – RoyBoy

Dislikes:

Chocolate with fruit - smoking - beets

Unnecessary letters (ie. labour - labor), shorter = better. My idea is that the U.S. will switch to metric and Canadians will spell like Americans. I think it's a fair trade off. Intentional scientific ignorance also annoys me; especially if its coupled with religious self-righteousness. And if you hold strong opinions without strong evidence in context... well then I'll creatively shoot you down.

Links of interest

 * Web 2.0 ... The Machine is Us/ing Us is a great presentation on the information revolution.
 * Imagining the Tenth Dimension assists in understanding time, space, and string theory.
 * The Straight Dope is a newspaper column answering curiosities succinctly; a benchmark for Wikipedia to strive toward.
 * ProjectCensored is media democracy in action, the news that didn't make the news.
 * Inequality by the numbers.
 * End of Ze World flash fun
 * The Business Of Nanotech will take us beyond our solar system.
 * timebeat is a sweet flash clock and/or screensaver.
 * history of the entire world, i guess

Awards

Favorite Quotations

"As a general rule, if you want to get at the truth – hear both sides and believe neither." – Josh Billings

"What you do is not honest. What you do is partisan hackery. You have a responsibility to the public discourse, and you fail miserably." – Jon Stewart to Tucker Carlson and Paul Begala on Crossfire

"Our citizens may be deceived for a while & have been deceived; but as long as the presses can be protected, we may trust to them for light; still more perhaps to the taxgatherers; for it is not worth the while of our antirepublicans to risk themselves on any change of government, but a very expensive one. Reduce every department to economy, & there will be no temptation to them to betray their constituents." – Thomas Jefferson ~ Letter to Archibald Stuart (14 May 1799)

"The best audience is intelligent, well-educated, and a little drunk." – Alben William Barkley (1877-1956), American statesman, US Vice President

"[When a young person loses faith in his religion because he begins to study science and its methodology] it isn't that [through the obtaining of real knowledge that] he knows it all, but he suddenly realizes that he doesn't know it all." – Richard P. Feynman

"The real problem is not Wikipedia, but reporters who fail to check their facts." – Joseph Wilson

"Because bias impedes our vision and is subject to sound inquiry, we are far from reaching a scientific ‘limit.’ Indeed, after this excursion into the issue of abortion, bias, and breast cancer, it seems our future has as much to do with human behavior as with human biology." – Drs. Weed & Kramer (1996) J National Cancer Inst. 88(23):1698-700

"Some foolish men declare that a Creator made the world. The doctrine that the world was created is ill-advised, and should be rejected. If God created the world, where was He before creation?... How could God have made the world without any raw material? If you say He made this first, and then the world, you are faced with an endless regression... Know that the world is uncreated, as time itself is, without beginning and end. And it is based on the principles..." – The Mahapurana (The Great Lege) Jinasena (India, Ninth Century)

"The way you can tell there's democracy going on is that nothing gets done." – A Million Open Doors by John Barnes

"I would suggest that science is, at least in part, informed worship." – Carl Sagan

"The better criterion on which to measure Wikipedia is whether this very young, pretty good, ever improving, totally free site serves a need - just as the way to measure Britannica is whether the additional surety that comes from its production model is worth the cost." – Daniel H. Pink, Wired.com: The Book Stops Here

"The ideal encyclopedia should be radical. It should stop being safe." – Charles Van Doren from Wired.com: The Book Stops Here

"Climb someone else's mountain and you may not like the view, but reach your own summit and you can see for miles." – Chris Ballard

From alt.fan.blade.runner:

A merry christmas to all - no matter what you do or do not believe in. - Lukas Mariman

I believe in santy claws - POD {Ò¿Ó}

... What about a Sanity Clause? - Lukas Mariman

There's no such thing as a sanity clause. - Patrick MM

"oh well then....if you like wikipedia you can't possibly be a psyco." - Lady Persephone

Articles
Started:

ABC hypothesis - Joel Brind - Hijacking Catastrophe - Quantum darwinism - History of abortion - Uncommon Knowledge - Dark-energy star - Oriental poppy - David Peoples - Hampton Fancher - Michael Deeley - Spinner (Blade Runner) - The Best Science Fiction of Isaac Asimov - Blade Runner (soundtracks) - Kevin Trudeau - Blade Runner (themes) - Geeks (2004 film) - Chemical Galaxy - Peter of Spain - Lindh - Spirytus rektyfikowany - Caroline Moreau - ThermaSAVE - Jessica Rakoczy - Cannabutter - Category:Iranian architecture - Category:1619 books - Template:Nn-test - Buckypaper - Sex Slaves - Steve Levicoff - List of Frontline (PBS) episodes - Hamilton Conservation Authority - Placemat - Obstacle course - SWAT World Challenge - Imperium Galactica III: Genesis - Newton's cannonball - Immortal DNA - Jordan Cronenweth - Fuel Freedom International - Synchrotron X-ray tomographic microscopy - Linton, Victoria - EToys.com - Kid America Club - Earth Made of Glass - The Merchants of Souls - Van Doren (disambiguation) - Black Coffee (film) - The Armies of Memory - Dishcloth - Colon cleansing - N-acylphosphatidylethanolamines

To Do: Who's Counting - Electricity market deregulation

Helped:

Abortion AdBusters Age of the Earth Athens

Betty Davis Bert (Sesame Street) Bicameralism (psychology) Blade Runner Bradbury Building Breast cancer Bushmeat

Cancer Canibus Carsonella rudii Cherry Sisters Cirque du Soleil Chinatown Christopher Marlowe Colegio San Ignacio de Loyola Cosmological constant Counter-Strike Courier Creation-evolution controversy

Dawson College shooting Debunking 9/11 Myths Dichloroacetic acid Diggers (theater) Dundas, Ontario

Electrical Equipment in Hazardous Areas Error Evolution

Films considered the worst ever Foie gras Frontline (US TV series)

Hamilton Boys' High School Hamilton, Ontario Heaven's Gate (film) History of video game consoles (seventh generation)

Intelligent design

Jack Whittaker (lottery winner) Jackass: The Movie Janeane Garofalo Jimmy Wales John Ziegler (talk show host) Jokela school shooting Jon Stewart

Kashan Kennedy assassination theories Krist Novoselic Krumping

Films Hamilton STNG List Loose Change (2007 film) The Lost Tomb of Jesus Louisiana Baptist University

March 2005 in Canada Marilyn Waring Members of Parliament on marriage -

Objections to evolution Oort cloud

Palm Islands People's Mujahedin of Iran PetSmart

Redemption (Star Trek) Rectified spirit

The Searchers (film) September 11, 2001 attacks Shakespearean authorship Social problems in Chinatown Spanish Armada Steve Irwin Steven Fletcher Structural insulated panel Sultana (steamboat) Supermax

Terri Schiavo The Score Themes in Blade Runner Theodor Duesterberg

User:Jimbo Wales User:Tony Sidaway Unintelligent Design

The Venetian Macao Vera Bradley Voice of Peace

Walt Brown (creationist) FAQ WikiLawyering Wikipediholism test WikiScanner Wildest Dreams Wine Clip

X-ray vision

Templates: Template:Nn-test

Disambiguation: Honeycomb - Redemption - Mount Ida

Images: Image tags - File:Hijacking catastrophe (poster).jpg - File:Kitchums keyboard.jpg - File:Jackass poster.jpg - File:Project Grizzly (film).jpg - File:Marvin (HHGG).jpg - File:TheOuterLimits (2005).jpg - File:Oriental poppy.jpg - UFO's = funny - File:Soldier (1998) poster.jpg - File:Dundas Carnegie Gallery.jpg - File:Dundas Downtown (May 2005).JPG - File:ChemicalGalaxy Stewart 2004.jpg - File:ChemicalGalaxy Longman 1951.jpg - File:Jimbo Wales Goatee.jpg - File:Adbusters NY Billboard.jpg - File:Imperium Galactica II.jpg - File:WebsterFalls Below Rainbow.jpg - File:Kevin Trudeau Infomercial Format.jpg - File:Kevin Trudeau Updated Edition.jpg - File:Adaminlaos.JPG (cropped) - File:BreastCancer ChrisKahlenborn.gif - File:Websters Falls 11-2005.jpg - File:Dundas, On at Night.jpg - File:Dundas from Dundas Peak 11-2005.jpg - File:Dundas, Ontario Indus. Park 11-2005.jpg - File:Dundas, Ontario escarpment 11-2005.jpg

 * Blade Runner: Bradbury skylight - Unicorn - Eye - VK machine - Rachael - Billboard - Spinner - Deck & Rach - PC Front Cover - Bradbury Int.

 * Star Trek: Lower Decks - Conundrum - I, Borg (Virus) - Real Life - Distant Origin

title: User:RoyBoy


text:
Brean Down Fort

Brean Down Fort was a Victorian naval fortification designed to protect the Bristol Channel. It was built 60 ft above sea level on the headland at Brean Down, 9 mi south of Weston-super-Mare, Somerset, England.

The site has a long history because of its prominent position. The earliest recorded settlement is from the Early to Middle Bronze Age.

The current buildings were constructed in the 1860s as one of the Palmerston Forts to provide protection to the ports of the Bristol Channel, and was decommissioned in 1901. During World War II it was rearmed and used for experimental weapons testing.

The site has been owned by the National Trust since 2002, following a £431,000 renovation project, as part of its Brean Down property and is open to the public.

The fort was used as a location for filming of the second episode, "Warriors", of the BBC television drama Bonekickers.

The fort was also used for exterior scenes of the Royal Marines attack on the villains base on Cragfest Island in episode six of 1978 HTV series The Doombolt Chase.

Bronze Age to Roman
The earliest record settlement is from the Early to Middle Bronze Age. It is now on an exposed cliff as the land has been eroded by the sea. Bronze Age artefacts from the site include pottery and jewellery. Most of the finds are now in the Museum of Somerset in Taunton. The presence of a probable roundhouse has also been detected.

The site has also produced Roman gold and silver coins of the emperors Augustus, Nero, Drusus and Vespasian and a cornelian ring.

Palmerston Fort
Brean Down Fort forms part of a line of defences, known as Palmerston Forts, built across the channel to protect the approaches to Bristol and Cardiff. It was fortified following a visit by Queen Victoria and Prince Albert to France, where they had been concerned at the strength of the French Navy. The Royal Commission on the Defence of the United Kingdom, under direction of Lord Palmerston, recommended fortification of the coast. Brean Down Fort formed part of a strategic coastal defence system covering the channel between the mainland and the islands of Steep Holm and Flat Holm.

Four acres of land at the end of Brean Down were requisitioned in 1862, with construction beginning in 1864 and completed in 1871.

The fort was originally armed with seven 7 in rifled muzzle-loading guns, which were among the last of this type to be made at the Woolwich Gun Foundry. These sited at three main gun positions, including W battery containing two guns on 'C' pivots (rotating around a reused Georgian cannon set upright in the ground). Each gun weighed 7 tons and had a 30 lb charge of gunpowder able to fire a 112 lb Palliser shot at 1560 ft per second. This could pierce 8 in of armour at 1000 yd. It was proposed to replace the 7 in guns with larger 9 in versions in 1888 but this was never put into action. It had a large, underground, main gunpowder magazine, 15 by and 20 ft high. The fort was staffed by 50 officers and men of the Coast Brigade, Royal Artillery, but no shots were ever fired in action.

In 1897, following wireless transmissions from Lavernock Point in Wales and Flat Holm, Guglielmo Marconi moved his equipment to Brean Down and set a new distance record of 14 km for wireless transmission over open sea. The end of the fort's active service came at 5 a.m. on 6 July 1900 when the No. 3 magazine which held 3 tons (3 tonnes) of gunpowder exploded. An inquiry found that Gunner Haines had fired a ball cartridge down a ventilator shaft causing the explosion, after being put on a charge for returning late to barracks, however this explanation has been challenged. The wall separating the fort from the moat on the south west corner was demolished and wreckage thrown up to 200 yd. No one knew why the gunner had blown up the fort, but it has been speculated that it was an act of suicide. The cannons were hauled away by traction engines.

It was then used as a café, owned by the Hillman family from at least 1907 until sold in 1936 to the 'bird sanctuary people'.

World War II
On the outbreak of World War II the fort was rearmed with two six-inch ex-naval guns and two searchlights as a Coastal artillery battery. The site was also used as a test launch site for rockets and experimental weapons.

Two gun positions were built to mount the ex-naval guns in their turrets. These were later protected with a "plastic" anti-aircraft roof. One position was built over the ruins of the old west battery and the other partly obscures the north west battery. The barrack blocks were converted and the windows partly blocked to reduce the effects of blast. Several other associated structures, including searchlight batteries for illuminating seaborne targets, a command post and the barracks for the garrison were built outside the original Palmeston fort.

The site was manned by 365 and 366 Coast Batteries of 571st Coast Regiment, Royal Artillery, formed from Brean Down Fire Control in December 1941 and disbanded in April 1944.

Several experimental weapons were trialled at Brean, by the Admiralty's Directorate of Miscellaneous Weapons Development, based at HMS Birnbeck. The only evidence being a short length of launching rail, designed to launch a bouncing bomb.

Some of the better known weapons trialled were the seaborne Bouncing bomb designed specifically to bounce to a target such as across water to avoid torpedo nets, anti-submarine missile AMUCK and the expendable acoustic emitter (designed to confuse noise-seeking torpedoes).

title: Brean Down Fort