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Peter Svidler

Pyotr Veniaminovich Svidler (Пётр Вениами́нович Сви́длер; born 17 June 1976), commonly known as Peter Svidler, is a Russian chess grandmaster and commentator who is an eight-time Russian Chess Champion.

Svidler has competed in three World Championship tournaments: in the period with split title the FIDE World Chess Championship 2002 and 2005, and after reunification the World Chess Championship 2007. He also played in three Candidates Tournaments, in 2013, 2014 and 2016. His best results at this level have been third in 2005 and 2013.

Eight-time Russian Champion (1994, 1995, 1997, 2003, 2008, 2011, 2013, 2017), he has represented Russia at the Chess Olympiad ten times (1994–2010; 2014) winning five team gold medals, two team silvers and an individual bronze. Svidler won the Chess World Cup 2011, was runner-up in the World Blitz Championship in 2006 and won at Fontys Tilburg, Biel and Gibraltar. Svidler also tied for first at Dortmund, Aeroflot Open and Karpov Poikovsky. He also assisted Vladimir Kramnik at the Classical World Championship matches in 2000 and 2004.

Early years
Svidler learned to play chess when he was six years old. His first trainer was Viacheslav Stjazhkin. He made his tournament debut in 1989, scoring 5 points from 11 games at the USSR Junior Championship in Pinsk. He scored 7/11 for tied eighth place in the USSR Juniors in 1990 and 5/9 in Oakland. He became an International Master in 1991 and the following year tied for first place with Ragim Gasimov and Vadim Zvjaginsev in the last USSR Junior Championship in Yurmala, scoring 8/11.

Svidler twice attended the Botvinnik–Kasparov School. One of those sessions was during the Baleares Open in Mallorca in December 1989. He transferred to the Dvoretsky–Yusupov School upon the former's closure. Mark Dvoretsky said that Svidler had to get written consent from Kasparov's mother in order to avoid accusations of taking students from that school.

In 1993, he started work with coach and International Master Andrei Lukin. In a 2011 question & answer session, Svidler said of Lukin, "The real breakthrough, however, coincided very closely with the moment I started to work with Andrey Mikhailovich Lukin – without him I really might have come to nothing."

1994 was his breakout year, winning the Russian Championship held in Elista with 8/11, winning the under-18 section of the World Youth Championship in Szeged, debuting for Russia at the Chess Olympiad in Moscow, scoring 5.5/8 on second reserve board, and gaining his three Grandmaster norms. Svidler also won the Linares Anibal Open, running alongside the invitational event and tied for first with four other players at the St Petersberg Chigorin Memorial. The short-lived Professional Chess Association in October 1994 ranked him world number 165, rated 2542.

In January 1995, Svidler broke into the top 100 players rated by Fédération Internationale des Échecs (FIDE) at number 86 with a rating of 2585. He started with 0/3 at the Vidra Memorial in Haifa but recovered to 6/11 for tied fourth, shared second with 7/9 in April's New York Open, then won the St Petersburg Championship in April. At the Novgorod Open in May–June he scored 6/9 for eighth place on tiebreak. He tied for first place with three players at Novosibirsk. A last round victory against Alexander Morozevich secured his second consecutive Russian Championship on tiebreak from five players with 7.5/11. Svidler rounded off his year placing fourth with 6.5/11 at the strong Groningen Invitational. His success pushed him to 33rd in the world rankings and third strongest junior and 2635 rating.

In 1996, Svidler scored 2.5/5 for fourth place at the Kloosters event in Ter Apel, failed to qualify for the quarter finals of the PCA Rapidplay in April, came fourth with 6.5/11 at Yerevan in May and fifth on tiebreaks with 3.5/7 at Vidra Memorial. At the Tal Blitz Memorial just before the Olympiad, he was mid-table with 9.5/18. His 8.5/11 contribution, including wins in his first four games for Russia, helped win team gold as well as individual bronze on board four at the 32nd Chess Olympiad, but at Fontys Tilburg a couple of losses saw him drop to tenth place on tiebreak with 4.5/11. At Groningen in November, he scored 5.5/11 for seventh place.

Svidler won the Torshavn Open in February 1997, half a point ahead of Ivan Sokolov with 7.5/9, and in March was sixth on tiebreak, with Vladimir Epishin and Valery Loginov scoring 5.5/9 in the St Petersburg Championship, before slipping to eighth place with 5/11 at a closed event in the same city. He came back with team silver and board-three bronze medals at the European Team Championships, England, victorious on tiebreaks. His form continued into the Russian Championship (held as a knockout format) where he won his third title after a long match against Evgeny Bareev, decided after a third pair of tiebreak games. Along the way he defeated Vladimir Malakhov, Ruslan Sherbakov, Semen Dvoirys and Alexey Dreev in the semi-finals. In July–August he tied for second place with 5.5/9 in Bad Homburg.

Svidler was a signatory of a letter published in September which protested the decision of FIDE President Kirsan Ilyumzhinov to change the format of the World Championship. Under the proposals, Anatoly Karpov and Garry Kasparov would be seeded directly to the semi-finals of the FIDE World Chess Championship 1998, Kasparov's refusal to participate meant that Karpov was seeded to the final. The letter also complained about the proposed schedule.

At Fontys Tilburg in October 1997, Svidler's last round win against Alexander Onischuk enabled him to tie for first with Vladimir Kramnik and Kasparov, scoring 8/11. He also defeated an overly ambitious Kasparov—who had started with 5.5/6—in their individual game. This results propelled him to 9th in the PCA rankings. In October at the World Team Championship in Lucerne, Svidler claimed board two gold with 4.5/7 for the gold medallists Russia. At the World Championship in December, Svidler defeated both Utut Adianto and Epishin 1.5–0.5, before taking Michael Adams to rapid tiebreaks in the third round, where he would lose the last three games to crash out of the event. His successes over the past year saw him given fourth place in the Chess Oscars voting, ahead of Karpov but behind winner Anand, Kasparov and Kramnik.

Entering FIDE top 10
Svidler entered the FIDE top 10 for the first time in January 1998, at ninth with a rating of 2690. At Linares, supported by Nigel Short, he showed he could compete at that level of competition with a solid 5.5/12, then came second in Madrid with 5.5/9 in May, a point behind Viswanathan Anand. He lost an exhibition internet blitz match against Kasparov 2–0 immediately after. It was revealed that Kasparov had accidentally played him two days before in a training match online, Kasparov winning 3–1.

He won his last two games to share victory at Dortmund with 6/9. During the tournament it was confirmed that Svidler's rating had risen above 2700 for the first time to 2710. In June he finished a point behind Viktor Korchnoi at Bad Homburg with 6/9 and finished second on tiebreak at the Russian Championship behind Morozevich with 7.5/11. Svidler led Russia to gold at the 33rd Chess Olympiad, winning the event in the last round with a 3.5–0.5 defeat of the Netherlands, pushing the United States into silver. Soon after he finished eighth at Tilburg with 5/11, then came third at the Wydra Memorial Rapid, well behind Anand and Judit Polgar.

In January 1999 Svidler tied for sixth with 6.5/13 in the blitz and 6.5/13 for ninth place in the Group A main event at Hoogovens. In a dip in form he lost five games in Linares to finish a disappointing seventh with 5.5/13, then scored 3.5/9 for ninth on tiebreak at Dos Hermanas in April. In early June, Nigel Short introduced Svidler to cricket, a sport for which Svidler is an avid fan, supporting England.

At Frankfurt in June–July, Svidler came fourth in the West Masters with 7.5/14 and fifteenth on tiebreak in the Ordix Open (both rapid events). Seeded to round two, he defeated Alexej Alexandrov 1.5–0.5 but lost to Kiril Georgiev by the same score. In November, he drew an internet rapid match with Morozevich 1–1. Svidler rounded off his year with third place at the St. Petersburg Blitz Championship.

Svidler placed tenth on tiebreak at the World Blitz Cup with 16.5/22 in January 2000, came third on tiebreak at the Wydra Rapidplay with 9/14, before being beaten by Jeroen Piket 1.5–0.5 in the semi-final of the Kasparovchess Grand Prix. he came third at the Ordix Open with 11.5/15, scored 15/16 in a simul in Mainz and shared first scoring 6.5/9 with Mikhail Gurevich at July's North Sea Open, Svidler dominated at Biel Chess Festival, finishing two points ahead of joint runners-up Loek van Wely and Ruslan Ponomariov, followed by Boris Gelfand, before his form collapsed with 3.5/9 at Polanica Zdroj, Rubinstein Memorial in August (Gelfand won). After tying for second place in the C group of the preliminary stage of the 1st FIDE World Cup, held in Shenyang, Svidler was eliminated after losing a sudden death tiebreak game against Movsesian. He won the Abihome rapid with 9.5/10 in October, before joining Kramnik's team facing Kasparov at the Classical World Championship match in London. He scored 4.5/8 on board three for the gold-medallist Olympiad team in Istanbul, then competed at the FIDE World Championship, eliminated in rapid tiebreaks by Michael Adams in the third round. He finished second with 4.5/7 at December's Keres Memorial Rapid, a point behind Jan Timman.

At the Rapid World Cup in March 2001 Svidler was eliminated at the group stage, finishing fourth in Group A, qualified from the group stage of the Viktor Korchnoi 70th Anniversary Tournament but was knocked out in the quarter finals by Piket. He came 11th with 8.5/11 in the Ordix Open, second at Biel, half a point behind Korchnoi, second at Moscow's Lightning event, competed in the China-Russia Summit and won team silver and board one bronze at the World Team Championship. Svidler reached the semifinals of the World Championship 2002, after defeating along the way Alejandro Hoffman, Sarunas Sulkis, Vadim Milov, Michael Adams and Boris Gelfand. He was eliminated by eventual winner Ruslan Ponomariov after losing the third game.

After Svidler played in the World Cup (a rapid knockout event) and Eurotel Knockout, an open letter was published with Svidler's signature decrying the proposed "Prague Agreement" in which it argued "most of the top chess professionals will have no opportunity to take part in the World Championship until 2005" and called for the establishment of a Grandmasters' Committee as previously agreed. He then competed at the Moscow (rapid) Grand Prix, tied for second at the Ordix Open, won the Chess960 section and won a two-game handicap match against Junior 7 and Eckhard Freise, and tied for third at the Moscow Blitz Championship. In the "Match of the New Century" between Russia and Rest of the World he scored 5/9, losing to Anand and Teimour Radjabov, He took in a tied Moscow–Saint Petersburg match before competing in the Chess Olympiad scoring 6/9 for team gold. He tied for second, half a point behind Igor Khenkin, at Santo Domingo in December with 7/9.

In January 2003, Svidler finished second behind Giovanni Vescovi with 7.5/11 at the Bermuda A Group before tying for first at Aeroflot, the invitation to Dortmund going to tiebreak winner Victor Bologan. He won the 4th Karpov tournament in Poikovsky on tiebreak with Joel Lautier with 6/9. He defeated Konstantin Chernyshov 2.5-1.5 in a standard match and 3–1 in a rapid match in Voronezh. Svidler's surge in form saw him climb to 8th place in the FIDE rankings. At the Mainz Chess Classic in August, he won an eight-game Chess960 match against Peter Leko 4.5–3.5. Svidler claimed his fourth Russian Championship in September on tiebreak over Morozevich, scoring 7/9 and scored 5/8 for Russia winning the European Team Championship, ahead of Israel. At Cap d'Agde rapid in October, he won the qualifying Group A with 5/7. After beating Topalov, he lost a blitz playoff against Anand in the semi-finals.

Svidler started 2004 fourth in the FIDE rankings and subsequently voted second in the Chess Oscar behind Anand, but slipped to ninth after tiebreak at Corus Group A scoring 6/13, then came seventh and fourth respectively in the Amber Blindfold and Rapid sections. He lost to Alexei Shirov in the final of the Leon knockout 3.5-0.5, scored 4/6 for the Rest of World against Armenia and came third at Dortmund after coming second in group A, losing to Kramnik after a long tiebreak semi-final but defeating Leko. He defended his Mainz Chess960 title in August against Aronian 4.5-3.5. He seconded Kramnik during his successful World Championship defence against Leko in September then played at the Olympiad in Calvia, winning team silver and scoring 6.5/9 on board two. He took sixth place on tiebreak at the Russian Championship in November. He ended the year with second on tiebreak at the Konstantin Aseev Memorial rapid and playing for third placed Russia in the Petrosian Internet Memorial.

At Corus in January 2005, after a difficult start Svidler recovered to 11th with 6/13 before placing a solid fifth with 5/9 at Poikovsky. At Amber, he came seventh in both Rapid and Blindfold sections. In July, Svidler finished fifth on tiebreak at Dortmund after tying with Topalov, Bacrot and van Wely on 5/9. Russia disappointed at the European Team Championships in August, drifting to 14th. Svidler scored 5.5/8 for board one silver medal before successfully defending his Mainz Chess960 title against Zoltán Almási 5–3.

World Championship 2005
At the FIDE World Chess Championship 2005 held in San Luis, Argentina between September and October, Svidler placed shared second with Anand (third on number of wins tiebreak) scoring 8½/14 games, 1½ points behind the winner, Veselin Topalov. Alexander Motylev acted as his second. Shortly after the tournament Svidler said: "I only prepared seriously for San Luis, and I think it has paid off. But in general I spend most of my spare time with my wife and kids, so my relative success in 2005 was a pleasant surprise." Crushing China in the last round secured Svidler-led Russia gold at the World Team Championship. He came sixth on tiebreak at the Russian Superfinal. His success in 2005 earned him fourth place in the Chess Oscar voting.

Svidler followed third place in the Moscow Superblitz in January 2006 before slipping in the final rounds to sixth place on tiebreak with 6.5/14 at Morelia-Linares. His form collapsed at Amber in March finishing last in the Rapid and sixth on tiebreak in the Blindfold, and put in solid performances in Mtel Masters and Olympiad held in May. After a short rest, Svidler returned to strength with second on tiebreak at Dortmund with 4.5/7, Kramnik catching him in the last round. He was defeated 5–3 by Aronian in the Mainz Chess 960 match after losing the last two games but beat Magnus Carlsen 1.5–0.5 in Spitsbergen. Svidler lost an armageddon play-off game against Alexander Grischuk at the World Blitz Championship in September, after tying on 10.5/15.

In October 2006 Svidler visited Kramnik during the World Championship match in Elista and released a joint open letter with Evgeny Bareev protesting against the handling of the controversy and calling for the dismissal of FIDE Vice-presidents Georgios Makropoulos and Zurab Azmaiparashvili, who sat on the Appeals Committee at the event. He scored 4.5/9 for seventh place on tiebreak at the Tal Memorial and fourth in the Blitz event in November. He finished fourth at the Russian Superfinal in December with 6.5/11. His poor results since September dropped him from fourth to 12th in the world.

In January 2007, Svidler lost his last two games to finish sixth at Corus with 7/13. Losing against Morozevich in the last round cost Svidler a share of second place at Morelia-Linares, instead placing fifth on tiebreak with 7/14, then took overall fourth on tiebreak at Amber in March (seventh in Rapid, fifth on tiebreak in Blindfold). At Aerosvit in June he finished fourth on tiebreak with a solid 6/11

Svidler's third place in San Luis two years before earned him a place in the next World Championship, held in Mexico City in September 2007. Struggling with losses in rounds three and five, he came back to win in the last round, scoring 6.5/14 for fifth place. He said in an interview that although he prepared deeply for the event he was "hugely disappointed". Svidler's 6/7 on first board regained the European Team Championship for Russia as well as individual gold. At the Chess World Cup he defeated both Eduardo Iturrizaga and Dusko Pavasovic 2–0, Rublevsky 2.5–1.5 before losing to Gata Kamsky by the same score. He finished ninth at the Russian Superfinal in December after losing to Evgeny Tomashevsky and Morozevich, on 5/11.

In 2008 Svidler lost to Grischuk in the quarter finals of the ACP World Rapid Cup. He won at Bunratty in February with 5.5/6, half a point ahead of Alexander Baburin. Svidler finished seventh in the inaugural FIDE Grand Prix event in Baku (invited as presidential nominee) between April–May with 6.5/13 and ninth on tiebreak with 5/11 at Aerosvit. He rebounded after a poor start in the second Grand Prix event held in Sochi in August, winning his last three games, to finish fifth on tiebreak with 7/13. He came fourth on tiebreak at the Tal Memorial Blitz, before playing in the China–Russia Summit and Russian Superfinal. He won his fifth Russian Championship after a play-off with Jakovenko and Evgeny Alekseev, having scored 7/9 in the main event. He tied with Grischuk for third at the World Blitz Championship in November, played in the Dresden Chess Olympiad and ended the year with fourth place, scoring 4.5/10, at Nanjing's Pearl Spring event.

Entering 2009, Svidler defeated Carlsen in the Aker Chess Challenge final before winning the Gibraltar Masters after a play-off match against Milov, having tied on 8/10. His participation in Gibraltar instead of Tata Steel was secured after organisers offered him a session at the local cricket nets. He successfully defended his Bunratty title scoring 5.5/6, but fell well out of contention at the Aeroflot Blitz, placing 47th. He finished tenth on tiebreak in the Nalchik Grand Prix scoring 6/13. Svidler defeated Karpov, Movsesian and Grischuk on the way to the ACP Rapid Cup final in May, losing to Gelfand 3–1, though he had decisive chances in two games. In July he came third in Donostia Chess Festival with 5.5/9, behind Hikaru Nakamura and Ponomariov. Svidler scored 6/10 for the "Experience" team as they defeated the "Rising Stars" in a Scheveningen match held in Amsterdam in August. Svidler scored 5/7 to win team silver at the European Team Championships in Novi Sad in October, stumbled to 3.5/9 and eighth place at the Tal Memorial, though he finished sixth at the World Blitz Championship in November. Soon after, he knocked Jean Hebert, Tomi Nyback, Arkadij Naiditsch and Shirov before being eliminated by Vladimir Malakhov in the quarter finals of the Chess World Cup 2009. He finished second behind Grischuk at the year-ending Russian Superfinal, scoring 6/9. 2010 was a much quieter year for Svidler with eighth place at Amber (5.5/11 Blindfold, 6/11 Rapid). At the Astrakhan Grand Prix held in May, Svidler came 11th with 6/13. He won matches against Peter Heine Nielsen, 4.5–1.5 at rapid, 7–3 blitz (1.b3 the starting position), then drew 5–5 at regular blitz as part of the Politiken Cup in August. He scored 5.5/10 for the losing "Experienced" team at NH Chess Tournament, then led Russia to team silver at the Chess Olympiad. In November, Svidler finished ninth in the World Blitz Championship with 19.5/38. Svidler ended the year with fourth place on tiebreak in the Russian Superfinal.

Svidler came eighth on tiebreak at the European Individual Championship in March 2011 with 8/11, half a point behind winner Vladimir Potkin. At the World Team Championships in July Russia slipped to fourth place after losing to India in the last round, Svidler losing to Surya Shekhar Ganguly on board three. In a shortened Russian Championship in August Svidler won his sixth title with 5/7, though he lost his last game against Morozevich.

World Cup 2011 winner
At the Chess World Cup held in September in Khanty-Mansiysk, Svidler beat Darcy Lima 1.5–0.5, Ngoc Truong Son Nguyen 4–2 after blitz tiebreaks, Fabiano Caruana 4–2 after rapid tiebreaks, Kamsky 2–0, and then Judit Polgar 1.5–0.5 to reach the semi-finals. After avenging his 2001 World Championship loss against Ponomariov 1.5–0.5, he defeated Grischuk in the final 2.5–1.5 to claim the World Cup title. Svidler struggled at the European Team Championships in November, scoring 3.5/8 as Russia finished fifth. He came seventh in the Tal Memorial with 4,5/9.

Svidler finished 12th at the Gibraltar Masters in January–February 2012, part of a 17-player group on 7/10, then defeated David Navara 3–1 in a Cez Trophy match held in Prague in June. In July's World Rapid and Blitz Championships held in Astana, Svidler finished eighth in both sections scoring 7.5/15 and 15/30 respectively. At the Russian Superfinal in August, Svidler shared first place with five other players on 5/9 after defeating Grischuk in the final round, leading to a play-off round-robin (25m+10s games). He placed third, behind winner Dmitry Andreikin and Karjakin. In October he was pipped to first place at the St Petersburg Rapid Cup by Lenier Dominguez Perez on tiebreak, both having tied on 7.5/11. He ended the year with solid 5.5/11 for eighth place at the FIDE Grand Prix in Tashkent.

In February 2013, Svidler came second in the Aeroflot Blitz and fifth in the Rapid. Svidler played in the 2013 Candidates Tournament in London from 15 March to 1 April, having qualified as winner of the World Cup in 2011. He finished third with 8/14, winning against Radjabov, Aronian, Ivanchuk and in a dramatic last round, Carlsen, which led to his rating rising to a record 2769. Although he finished in last place with 3/9 at the Alekhine Memorial, he recovered with 5/9 for fourth place at Norway Chess—a late replacement for Kramnik—scoring 5.5/9 for fifth place in the Blitz event. At June's FIDE Grand Prix in Thessaloniki, Svidler came ninth on tiebreak with 4.5/11. In August he competed in the 2013 World Cup. He defeated Anna Ushenina 3–1 after rapid tiebreaks, Bologan 2.5–1.5 after rapid tiebreaks and Radjabov 1.5–0.5, before being knocked out by eventual finalist Andreikin 2.5–1.5 after rapid tiebreaks. He reached the semi-finals of the ACP Rapid Cup in September, losing to Grischuk, then won his seventh Russian Championship in October after winning a rapid tiebreak match against Ian Nepomniachtchi 1.5–0.5, having scored 6.5/8 in the main event. He won team bronze at the European Team Championships in November. At the 5th London Chess Classic in December, held in a qualifying group then knockout format, Svidler qualified top of Group B but was knocked out in the first round by Adams 3–1.

Svidler finished seventh at the 2014 Candidates Tournament in March. He scored 6.5/14 and won games against Kramnik, Andreikin and Topalov. He took part in Norway Chess in June, coming fifth in the Blitz with 5/9 and seventh with 4/9 in the main event. At the World Rapid and Blitz Championships the same month, Svidler came tenth with 10/15 in the Rapid and eleventh with 13/21 in the Blitz. In July, he defeated Gelfand in a rapid match 5–3 as part of the Gideon Japhet Memorial held in Jerusalem. In October he finished seventh on tiebreak with 6/11 at the FIDE Grand Prix held in Baku. Svidler finished sixth with 12/22 at the Tal Memorial Blitz in November, before coming fifth on tiebreak, scoring 4.5/9, at the Russian Superfinal.

World Cup 2015 finalist
Although he was one of the strongest players at the Gibraltar Masters in 2015, Svidler slipped to twelfth place scoring 7/10 and slumped to eleventh place at the FIDE Grand Prix in Tbilisi, scoring 4.5/11. In May he scored 5.5/11 at the FIDE Grand Prix held in Khanty-Mansiysk for sixth place on tiebreak. He scored 3/5 at the China-Russia Summit in July and came ninth with 5/11 in the Russian Superfinal. He played at the St Petersburg Summer Rapid, finishing in tenth place.

Svidler reached the final of Chess World Cup 2015 in Baku having defeated Emre Can 1.5–0.5, Liviu-Dieter Nisipeanu 3.5–2.5 after tiebreaks, Radjabov 2.5–1.5 after tiebreaks, top-seeded Veselin Topalov 1.5–0.5, Chinese prodigy Wei Yi, 3.5–2.5 after tiebreaks, and Anish Giri 1.5–0.5 in the semi-finals. He won the first two games against compatriot Sergey Karjakin but dramatically lost the remaining two games, forcing a tiebreak match, formed of mini-matches of shortening time control. Advantage switched between the players but eventually at the blitz time control (5 minutes + 2 seconds per move) Karjakin won both games to take the title. However, having reached the final, Svidler qualified for the 2016 Candidates Tournament.

At the World Rapid and Blitz Championships in Berlin in October 2015 he finished 34th in the Rapid and seventh on tiebreak in the Blitz. He ended his year with team victory at the European Team Championship held in Reykjavik in November.

Svidler came seventh on tiebreak at the 2016 Paul Keres Memorial scoring 8/11, before competing at the Candidates Tournament in March. Svidler failed to convert several promising positions and finished fourth out of eight players with 7/14. He lost with Black against Anand in round 6 but defeated Aronian with the same colour in round 11.

In June, Svidler came sixth at the Eurasian Blitz Cup in Almaty. Svidler lost a mixed time control match in Biel against Maxime Vachier-Lagrave 1.5–2.5 in rapid and 1–3 in classical games. During the match Svidler was announced as replacement for Kramnik at the Sinquefield Cup. After overcoming visa difficulties, he struggled to ninth place with 3.5/9.

Svidler served as second to Kirill Alekseenko during the Candidates Tournament 2020 and as second to Praggnanandhaa in the Candidates Tournament 2024.

Other International Team Championships
Svidler competed in World and European Team Championships (ETCC) with results as follows:

Club results
Svidler played in the European Chess Club Cup 20 times between 1995–2003 and 2006–2016, winning with Ladya in 1997, Paris NAO in 2003 and Saint Petersburg in 2011. Second-placed with Chigorin St Petersburg in 2000, Baden-Baden in 2008, Saint Petersburg in 2012 and Mednyi Vsadnik (from Saint Petersburg) in 2016, he won individual silver for board two in 2003 and board one in 2009, and bronze for board two in 2000.

A frequent Russian club player, he competed 16 times, on all but two occasions for Saint Petersburg winning four times, placing second twice, and placing third seven times. He won individual gold for first board in 2000, 2001 and 2005, silver for board two in 1996 and 2011 and bronze for board one in 2009 and 2015.

In Germany's Bundesliga, Svidler lost with Baden-Baden in the play-off in May 2004, but he won every season from 2005/06 up to and including 2014/15. He also won the German Team Cup in 2003 and 2005.

He won the French Team Championship with Paris NAO in 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006. Svidler won the league in 2009 with Évry Grand Roque and came second in 2010.

Svidler played in the 2001 Four Nations Chess League final, losing to Morozevich, but his team took the title. He also played in the 2002–03 Belgian Team Championships.

Personal life
Svidler is married and has two sons. Outside of chess, he is a fan of cricket and is a supporter of the England cricket team.

Together with 43 other Russian elite chess players, Svidler signed an open letter to Russian president Vladimir Putin, protesting against the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine and expressing solidarity with the Ukrainian people.

Svidler is a frequent commentator on important chess tournaments and matches on the chess website Chess24. He received praise for his real-time online analysis and solo post-game summaries of the 2018 World Chess Championship final.

title: Peter Svidler


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User:Alight

My gallery

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Heather Erxleben

Heather Erxleben (born 1966) is a former Canadian Forces soldier who was the first female to graduate from a Regular Force infantry trades training course. She graduated from the PPCLI Battle School in CFB Wainwright, Alberta on January 19, 1989. Other women had attempted to pass the 16-week training course, but she was the first to succeed.

Her first assignment after training was to 3rd Battalion Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, at that time stationed in BC. She was in the military for three years, and left the services after her initial commitment was completed.

Before her time in the Canadian Forces, Erxleben drove a truck for a lumber company. As of 2006, Heather Erxleben is a nurse in British Columbia.

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Franco-American (brand)

Franco-American is a brand name of the Campbell Soup Company. Founded by Alphonse Biardot as Franco-American Food Company, it sells gravy and condensed soups.

History
The company was founded as Franco-American Food Company by Alphonse Biardot, who immigrated to the United States from France in 1880. In 1886, he and his two sons opened a commercial kitchen in Jersey City, New Jersey, featuring the foods of his native country. The company proved a success, particularly with its line of canned soup and pasta, and it was acquired by Campbell's in 1915. The Franco-American name was phased out over the next two decades for soup products and in the late 1990s for pasta products. However their product line was still sufficient to continue advertising well into the 1970s, with Barry Manilow performing their jingle "Who Can? Franco Ameri-Can". On November 18, 2004, Campbell's announced it was discontinuing the name for pasta products in favor of its own "to boost sales of what had been Franco-American's canned SpaghettiOs, RavioliOs, Macaroni and Cheese, and regular spaghetti, along with beef, chicken and turkey gravy varieties sold in cans and jars".

As of 2023, the Campbell Soup Company continues to sell gravy under the Franco-American name, along with a small line of condensed soups that are similar to soups sold under the Campbell's brand.

Their logo can still be found on the back of SpaghettiOs cans, next to the copyright.

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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thorpesexual

Thorpesexual
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Delete

 * 1) in fact, speedy delete. i left message for user on reasons why both of his articles are going to be deleted. Cavebear42 22:45, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)


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Talk:8128

 * 8,128 is the 127th triangular number, the 64th hexagonal number, the eighth 292-gonal number, and the fourth 1356-gonal number.

I just noticed a pattern to this. 8128 is the xth 3-, 6-, 292-, and 1356-gonal number, with x taking the values 4, 8, 64, 127. I have a feeling the above ought to say 8128 is the 128th triangular number. The sequence 4, 8, 64, 127 yields no results from Sloane's, but 4, 8, 64, 128 does. PrimeFan 22:42, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Pascal's triangle

 * One property that 8128 doesn't share with all the other perfect numbers is that it is the sum of every fourth entry of a row in Pascal's triangle.

Removed, because I can't make head or tail of it. I've tried summing every fourth number in each row of Pascal's triangle, and none come to 8128. Does this mean something else? sjorford →•← 09:40, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * An OEIS search for ",8128, AND pascal" gives five results, including A038504 Sum of every 4th entry of row n in Pascal's triangle, starting at "n choose 1" and A038505 Sum of every 4th entry of row n in Pascal's triangle, starting at "n choose 2". It seems to me though that this requires further investigation and clarification before restoration. Anton Mravcek 19:15, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Right, I've worked it out from the OEIS entry - take the second diagonal of PT (the top right-bottom left diagonal that goes 1,2,3,4,5,6,7...), and on each row of the triangle sum every fourth number beginning with that diagonal. This gives 8128 on row 16:

1 15 105 455 1365 3003 5005 6435 6435 5005 3003 1365 455 105 15 1

...15 + 3003 + 5005 + 105 = 8128.

Whether this is interesting enough to be in this article, I'm not sure - we can't include every time 8128 appears in OEIS! Perhaps it's saying it's the only perfect number with this property, but I'm not certain. sjorford →•← 20:43, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:8128


text:
Edward Montagu-Stuart-Wortley

Major General Edward James Montagu-Stuart-Wortley, (31 July 1857 – 19 March 1934) was a senior British Army officer. He saw extensive active service in many parts of world, including Afghanistan, South Africa, Egypt, the Ottoman Empire, Malta, Sudan, France and Ireland. He was the source of the "interview" with Kaiser Wilhelm II that was the basis of the Daily Telegraph Affair that weakened the Kaiser's political power in Germany. During the First World War he was controversially dismissed after the Battle of the Somme due to the failure of his division's diversionary attack.

Early life
Wortley was born on 31 July 1857, the second son of Francis Dudley Montagu-Stuart-Wortley, grandson of John Stuart-Wortley-Mackenzie, 2nd Baron Wharncliffe, and nephew of Edward Montagu-Stuart-Wortley-Mackenzie, 1st Earl of Wharncliffe. He attended Eton College from 1866 and gained a commission in the King's Royal Rifle Corps (60th Foot) on 13 October 1877.

Imperial wars
Montagu-Stuart-Wortley served as Superintendent of Army Signalling for the Kurram Valley Field Force during the Second Anglo–Afghan War (1878–80). After the First Boer War broke out in December 1880, with the Boer Commandos in the Transvaal besieging British garrisons there, the Governor of Natal Sir George Pomeroy Colley raised the Natal Field Force; Montagu-Stuart-Wortley served with the Natal Field Force in the actions at Laing's Nek, Schuinshoogte and Majuba Hill.

In 1881 he acted as a Military Secretary to General Valentine Baker who at that time was in command of the Egyptian police and then, during the Anglo-Egyptian War, was aide-de-camp to Major General Sir Evelyn Wood. In 1884–85 he took part in the Nile Expedition to relieve General Gordon who was besieged in Khartoum and took part in the Abu Klea on 17 January 1885. In 1885 he accompanied Conservative politician Sir Henry Drummond Wolff to Constantinople as a military attaché. Later that year he was appointed as Deputy Assistant Adjutant General to Sir Francis Grenfell as he led his division at the Battle of Ginnis.

After attending Staff College, Camberley in 1889 he became a brigade major serving in Malta from 1893 to 1896. He was promoted to the substantive rank of major 4 April 1894, and was appointed a Companion of the Order of St Michael and St George in 1896. Lord Kitchener led a second Nile Campaign from 1896 where Stuart-Wortley was second in command of a gunboat flotilla and later led a band of Arab irregulars who secured the east bank of the Nile in the battle of Omdurman. For his services in this campaign he was awarded the Distinguished Service Order in November 1898.

During the Second Boer War, Stuart-Wortley commanded a composite battalion of the King's Royal Rifles Corps and Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort's Own) at the Battle of the Tugela Heights, assisting in the Relief of Ladysmith. In July 1901, he received the promotion to lieutenant-colonel, and was appointed a military attaché to Paris, a post he would hold for three years.

In the summer of 1907 Kaiser Wilhelm rented Stuart-Wortley's home Highcliffe Castle whilst he recovered from an acute throat trouble. In return for his hospitality Edward was given two stained glass windows for the castle and invited to visit the German Army's manoeuvres at Alsace the next year. Stuart-Wortley had several conversations with the Kaiser, during which Wilhelm II explained that he desired and had always worked towards, positive relations with Britain. Stuart-Wortley, believing the Kaiser, decided that publicizing these views would counteract the anti-German sentiment in Britain that was rising during the Anglo-German naval arms race. He thus wrote up his notes from his meetings and handed them over to a journalist from The Daily Telegraph in September 1908. Although the transcript had first been submitted to the Kaiser's staff for approval, the text was not properly checked by German officials, and the publication of the notes as an "interview" with the Kaiser resulted in the Daily Telegraph Affair that infuriated the British public and weakened the political power of the Kaiser within Germany.

Between 1908 and 1912 Stuart-Wortley commanded the 10th Infantry Brigade at Shorncliffe Army Camp.

First World War
On 1 June 1914, during the First World War, Major General Montagu-Stuart-Wortley became GOC of the 46th (North Midland) Division, a Territorial Force division. In October 1915, the Division saw action in France during the Battle of Loos when it made a costly attack against the Hohenzollern Redoubt and Fosse 8. Wortley proposed a bombing attack, but was overruled and ordered to go ahead with a frontal attack by General Richard Haking (his Corps commander). In the event, the attack was a disastrous failure and the Division lost 180 officers and 3,583 men killed, wounded or missing. The action was described in the Official History as a "tragic waste of infantry".

Despite his reputation as an excellent trainer of troops, the perceived poor performance and high casualty rates of the 46th Division at the Hohenzollern Redoubt and again at Gommecourt, would result in Stuart-Wortley being made a scapegoat for failure. Woods argues that, as there is no evidence to suggest Stuart-Wortley lacked competence or failed in his duties at the Hohenzollern attack and that these charges are largely unfair.

Stuart-Wortley had argued for a limited and methodical attack: using the 'bite and hold' tactic which had emerged at Neuve Chapelle. This was especially important because of the limited resources available to him: the number of artillery pieces, artillery planning, counter-battery spotting, the quantity, type and efficiency of shells, the quantity and use of gas and smoke and a uniform issue of effective, standard bombs. To his credit, the twenty-two critical and useful tactical points Stuart-Wortley formed from his analysis of the Battle of Loos suggests he was an open-minded commander keen to learn and develop from past experiences.

Accusations against planners and commanders followed the attack. Lieutenant Colonel Josiah Wedgwood, MP for Staffordshire, wrote directly to Prime Minister H. H. Asquith with a report summarising his discussions with survivors and wounded of 137th Brigade. He argued that a change in general would restore morale and asked why over-confident objectives had been set. Asquith immediately sent the letter to Haig, who rejected most of Wedgwood's findings laying the blame on the ineffectual fighting quality and lack of courage of the Territorial troops and on Stuart-Wortley, their commander. Haig's evidence came from a gas officer who alleged that when the gas was released "for nearly an hour ... there was no hostile fire in the ground ... Yet the Territorials in question only advanced to our old trench line and held!", and that "the attack was made by officers and NCOs, but few rank and file followed them." Lord Cavan, commanding the Guards Division informed Haig: "that the companies of the 46th Division who had been ordered to attack towards the line of the Dump-Quarries did not go forward 40 yards".

Haig concluded that there was a "want of discipline in the 46th Division and general ignorance of war conditions".

Woods argues that Haig's criticism of 46th Division is unfair and based on doubtful evidence. "The comments from the unnamed gas officer can easily be explained by the hour between the gas being released (1pm) and the commencement of the infantry attack (2pm). The artillery plan directed the intense two-hour barrage toward more rear-ward targets from 1pm, to allow the gas to be directed toward the first line of enemy trenches".

Woods' analysis of the battalion, brigade and divisional War Diaries clearly shows that the assault formations left their own trenches and advanced at their allotted time. It wasn't the "want of discipline" that restricted 137th Brigade's advance but the dreadful casualties suffered in their limited advance against unbroken German defences. Woods suggests that both morale and discipline were high in 46th Division. Indeed, the War Diaries suggest that many soldiers were forced to retire from positions beyond Cavan's 40 yards.

Despite both Haig and Haking approving Divisional plans, Haig reserved particular criticism for Stuart-Wortley. Haig wrote: "I do not think much of Major-General Stuart-Wortley as a Divisional Commander and have already spoken to the GOC XI Corps on the subject". Stuart-Wortley appears to have follow the plans to the best of his limited options. Woods suggests that it may have been that Stuart-Wortley's original idea – of a series of limited, step-by-step attacks – was seen as unambitious, over-cautious and indicative of a man lacking in 'offensive spirit'.

Though Gary Sheffield, in his biography of Haig, is largely supportive of his performance in the First World War, he describes Haig as "ungenerous" and "unfair" in his blame of Stuart-Wortley for the failure at the Hohenzollern Redoubt.

Woods concludes that Stuart-Wortley was likely unaware that he was a pawn in a bigger game of personal politics being played out in the most senior ranks of the British Army, twelve days before Haig succeeded French.

Wortley incurred Haig's displeasure by writing regularly to King George V about the activities of the 46th Division (despite having the permission of Sir John French to do so). This, and the disagreement with Haking about the Hohenzollern Redoubt attack, left Wortley as a "marked man" against whom Haig conspired". At the time of the opening of the Somme, he was a few weeks short of his 59th birthday, but in ill-health, suffering from sciatica. Despite his experience, he was "past his fighting best" and his fitness for operational command was questionable. One officer later described him in 1916 as: "a worn-out man, who never visited his front line and was incapable of inspiring any enthusiasm."

Gommecourt
As part of Lieutenant-General Sir Edmund Allenby's British Third Army, the 46th Division was involved in the diversionary Attack on the Gommecourt Salient on the first day of the Battle of the Somme, on 1 July 1916. The initial attack by the Division launched from trenches located at the village of Foncquevillers at 7.30 A.M. failed within a half an hour of its commencement with heavy casualties from enemy fire, most of the Division's troops seeking cover and becoming entrapped in its own assembly trenches. Montagu-Stuart-Wortley was ordered to renew the attack at midday as the neighbouring 56th (1/1st London) Division – a fellow Territorial Force Division – on its right had made good progress but was in need of support as it came under increasing counter-attack from numerically-superior rallying German forces besetting it on three sides simultaneously, another British attack to the immediate south at Serre also having failed. The 46th Divisional infantry force by this time however had become incapable of doing this due a chaotic situation in its own trenches, and was unable to seriously re-engage for the rest of the day. After continual failed attempts to organize a renewed attack by his troops throughout the morning and early afternoon, it was clear to Montagu Stuart-Wortley that there was no prospect of success, but at 3.30 P.M. under pressure from senior command's exhortations he ordered a token effort to be made by two rifle companies of men, only one platoon of 20 men actually going over-the-top on the receipt of the order, with only 2 men of it surviving the attempt unscathed.

In the evening the 56th Division was forced back out of the enemy trenches after 13 hours of continuous heavy fighting within the German position on its own, having sustained very heavy losses, sealing the defeat of the overall operation at Gommecourt. Thus the 46th Division's attack failed completely, and it further had the distinction of suffering the lowest casualties in 2 455 killed, wounded and missing of 13 British divisions engaged that day. It was subsequently judged responsible for the failure of the Gommecourt action in having left its fellow Territorials from London to fight alone in an impossible tactical situation, and was thereafter dogged by a reputation for being a poor quality military formation, a reputation that it would not come out from under the shadow of until its spectacular victory in the crossing of the St. Quentin Canal in 1918.

Reporting on the attack after its failure VII Corps commander, Lieutenant-General Thomas D'Oyly Snow, stated in official correspondence: "the 46th Division ... showed a lack of offensive spirit. I can only attribute this to the fact that its commander, Major-General the Hon. E.J. Montagu Stuart-Wortley, is not of an age, neither has he the constitution, to allow him to be as much among his men in the front lines as is necessary to imbue all ranks with confidence and spirit."

Snow ordered a Court of Inquiry on 4 July 1916 into the actions of the 46th Division during the attack, but before it delivered its findings General Haig as Commander-in-Chief ordered Montagu-Stuart-Wortley to leave the field and return to England.

Given that Montagu Stuart-Wortley's orders prior to the attack had been "to occupy the ground that is won by the artillery" his dismissal remains a subject of controversy. According to Alan MacDonald, "the Division and its General were made scapegoats for the failure of a fatally flawed concept dreamt up by higher authority – the diversionary attack at Gommecourt".

Later life
Upon his return home he was appointed to the backwater command of the 65th (2nd Lowland) Division in Ireland until March 1919. He retired from the British Army on 31 July 1919. Post-war, Wortley made several protests to the Government about the perceived injustice that he had suffered at its hands, particularly with regard to not having received the customary honours issued to commanders of Divisional rank in the war, but to no avail. He died 19 March 1934 at age 76.

Personal life
Edward married Violet Hunter Guthrie on 5 February 1891; she was the daughter of James Alexander Guthrie, 4th Baron of Craigie and her sister Rose Ellinor Guthrie was married to General the Hon Sir Cecil Edward Bingham. They had three children Major Nicholas Rothesay Stuart-Wortley (1892–1926), Louise Violet Beatrice Montagu-Stuart-Wortley (1893–1970) and Elizabeth Valetta Montagu-Stuart-Wortley (1896–1978).

Edward's older brother, the Hon Sir Francis Montagu-Stuart-Wortley-Mackenzie, succeeded to the Earldom of Wharncliffe and his younger brother, the Hon Sir Alan Richard Montagu-Stuart-Wortley, became a lieutenant general in the British Army serving throughout the First World War.

title: Edward Montagu-Stuart-Wortley


text: File:Ttsbox.jpg

title: File:Ttsbox.jpg


text: User:Alight/gallery

title: User:Alight/gallery


text:
Talk:Tláloc

Untitled
Also, the screen name of a liberal posting on political forums.

Matlolcueitl

 * The reference to Matlolcueitl was removed because 1) "She of the Jade Skirt" is the Chalchiuhtlicue and 2) I could find no reference to Matlolcueitl which wasn't itself a reference to this page. Corrections welcome. -- Dystopos 19:03, 28 November 2004 (UTC)
 * her name is Matlalcueitl with an a instead of the o.·Maunus· tlahtōlli  19:33, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

The picture

 * The picture is REALLY FREAKY!
 * I think the original artwork depiction of Tlaloc is rather good, but that a PD Pre-Columbian depiction would be more appropriate. Other thoughts? -- Infrogmation 21:11, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that a Pre-Columbian depiction would be more appropriate. I looked myself -- not extensively but I looked -- when this drawing was posted.  I couldn't find anything that was not copyrighted (understandably) and I couldn't even pull up a good "fair use" image.  Also, note that a JPG was pulled earlier this year for copyright problem.  Someone did add a link at the bottom, which helps somewhat.  In the end, my thoughts were that this drawing was better than no drawing.  -- Madman 00:40, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Teotihuacan

 * How can you possibly know if sacrifices were done to the rain god by the Teotihuacanos? Wasn't Teotihuacan occupied during classic period? -- Tlalocatecútli 14:41, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
 * You are right, we know nothing of the content of teotihuacano ritual practice - it is also incorrect to say that depictions of tlaloc are found in teotihuacan since that implies that thy spoke nahuatl something that is not at all certain. They may have had a completely different name for their raingod.·Maunus· tlahtōlli  19:32, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Derivation

 * I have read that Tláloc is short for Tlalocatecútli - agglutination in Náhuatl of the stem words tlál(li) - earth, ócan - paradise and tecútli - lord. This literally means that Tláloc is the lord of Tlalócan, the wattery paradise beneath the earth. Is this correct? -- Tlalocatecútli 14:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Where did you read this? The derivation seems quite likely, though the assumption that its literal meaning is also a religious meaning is suspect. If you can provide a citation, we can add the etymology and its reference to the article. --Dystopos 22:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 * it is the reverse: Tlalocatectli is a longer version of tlalolc. Tlalocatecutli means "lord of tlalocan" - tlalocan means "place of tlaloc" - the meaning of the word tlaloc is not well understood but is often interpreted as "that which lies on the ground" ie. rain.·Maunus· tlahtōlli  19:30, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

"also known as Nuhualpilli"

 * According to who? I can't find this in any of my many books about the Mexicans. -- Tlalocatecútli 17:33, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The name Nuhualpilli is used in reference to Tlaloc in the Song of Tlaloc from the Florentine Codex. Although referenced as the name of the god of stone workers, it is, indeed, on of Tlaloc's names. 02:18, -- 71.56.236.98 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * if so it is a typo: nahuatl has no u vowel. Indeed a google search for "nuhualpilli" returns only hits on wikipedia and mirrors. I remain unconvinced of tlaloc having such an epithet.·Maunus· tlahtōlli  19:27, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * If Náhuatl has no u vowel then what's the u doing in the word Náhuatl? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.67.161.139 (talk) 03:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC).
 * It is representing the consonant sound of a w. It is pronounced NA-watl not na-HOO-atl·Maunus· tlahtōlli  07:59, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * please cease inserting the supposed epithet nuhualpilli: classical nahuatl can simply not form such a word. The sourcing presented is from a non specialist website that includes unsourced statements it cannot functio as a reliable source. Unless new documentation is provided I will keep reverting the insertion of "nuhualpilli" it is simply an unsourced statement.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 11:54, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Isn't the Florentine Codex a primary source? If we citited that wouldn't it make it "correct".

Xuchilbara 15:22, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * If you quoted the Florentine Codex that would make it a case of false quotation. According to the Florentine Codex his epithet was Nahualpilli with an a as the second letter.·Maunus· · ƛ · 17:03, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Ah then must be a typo or mispelling. Xuchilbara 21:39, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Lets see here...

From _A Scattering of Jades_, which is a collection of works translated by Thelma Sullivan, stanza 3 of the Song of Tlaloc on page 170 says, "Ahuiya! My master, Nahualpilli, the Sorcerer Prince truly you have brought forth your own sustenance".

As for the Florentine, the same can be found in Book 2, part III p.224 of the 1981 J. O. Anderson limited edition published by the School of American Research and the University of Utah. Except there it's spelled "Naualpilli".

I posted this correction months ago on this discussion list, but I don't know what happened to it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.56.236.98 (talk) 02:36, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

"Tlaloc in El Savador?"
Since he was the MEXICAN rain god how could he have been worshiped in El Salvador? Do they speak Náhuatl down there? I don't think so but maybe some similar Uto-Aztecan language like Náhuat. All Meso-American cultures have a similar rain god like like Cocijo (Miztec), Tajin (Totonac) or Chac (Mayan). Is this really correct? -- Tlalocatecútli 21:56, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes, Nahuatl-related languages were (and are still) spoken in areas of mid-Central America, and a number of peoples with cultures and traditions closely linked to those common to the central mexican plateaux were living in the Salvadoran region by at least Postclassic times; see for eg Pipil, whose language Nawat is indeed Uto-Aztecan. Classical Nahuatl was also quite a lingua franca of the region and traders, and considerable traffic and migration along the Pacific Guatemalan coast into the Salvadoran region from the Mexican uplands ensured a dynamic cultural exchange between these two separated areas.--cjllw | TALK  00:13, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

God of Lightning?
According to The Aztecs - People of the Sun by Alphonso Caso, Tlaloc is also the god of lightning so the text that said so should have remained.216.67.161.230 16:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)Tlalocatecútli

 * Yes indeed, Tlaloc also had association with lightning and thunder, and quite a few other phenomena associated with water- storms, flood, etc. Can easily be readded (was it removed?)

 * Article also needs some rework to emphasise Tlaloc's significance to central mexican precolumbian cultures generally, and not just the Aztec/Mexica who were only relatively recent newcomers on the scene.--cjllw | TALK  23:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

About the name Nahualpilli...
For those of you who can't seem to find the reference to "Nahualpilli" being one of Tlaloc's names, please see Book II "The Ceremonies" of Sahagun's Florentine Codex, specifically "Tlalloc. icujc" (The Song of Tlaloc). Also, see Sullivan's _Scattering of Jades_. Likewise, Oliver's _Mockeries and Metamorphoses_, while primarly about Tezcatlipoca, also discusses this name in relation to Tlaloc. In fact, I've yet to see a Mesoamerican scholar discount Nahualpilli as one of Tlaloc's titles. Honestly, this is very basic scholarship, and this issue should've been resolved a long time ago. If such a word can never exist in classic Nahuatl, then why did Thelma Sullivan ever bother? She was only one of the greatest Nahuatl linguists that ever lived. If the Florentine is suddenly considered "specialized" sourcing, then I'm afraid that most of the Mesoamerican articles on Wikipedia need to be highly edited. I'd also like to know why a primary source can't be referenced in the article, since Taube's book, full of all the mistakes that it is (and it is, indeed, full of mistakes and pet theories on his part), is freely used as a source.

I'd furthermore like to ask why this article mentions nothing in depth of Tlaloc's cave/mountain associations, lightning associations, appearances in mythology (with citation), astronomical associations (as per the Borgia, etc), his pre-Aztec history or his ties with warfare. And how about a real iconography discussion? Really, this article is of exceptionally low quality at the moment, and requires much improvement. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.237.103.215 (talk) 01:07, 2 April 2007 (UTC).
 * I am discounting the name nuhualpill hat someone keeps reinserting, with a reference to an obscure website. Nahualpilli is a different story and if you quote a page number of the florentine codex that will do fine as a reference, Thelma Sullivan will do even better - but no one has presented such sources up untill now. And yes the article is of low quality - please go ahead and do something about it.·Maunus· · ƛ · 07:21, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

"Disputed Spanish" accents
In Náhuatl accute accents are used to show which syllable is emphasized. For this reason the "disputed Spanish" accents you removed from Tláloc were legitimate and even desirable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.193.87.154 (talk • contribs)
 * I made the edits with reference to this conversation. If you have references that would help settle the dispute, they would be welcomed. --Dystopos 15:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * In Nahuatl stress is always predictable on the penultimate syllable and so there is no need to show stress in the orthogrsaphy. For nahuatl words that has entered into spanish the accent is often included if the penultimate stress doesn't conform to the normal stress patterns of spanish. in short: tláloc is a spanish spelling tlaloc is the english spelling and is the actual phonetic rendering of the nahuatl word which is best written tlāloc or tlaloc in nahuatl.

Not all readers know this or that the emphasis is on the last syllabe in Mayan languages. Not all of us can read the phonetic rendering or know where to look it up so in my view the diacritical marks are useful.

 * No but english which is the language of this wikipedia does not use accents on letters to denote stress. This means that the accents are only useful for people who speak spanish and expect spanish orthography to be employed. I don't think many people visit the english wikipedia expecting spanish orthography of languages other than spanish. English works on aztec mythoilogy do not normalloy use the spanish accented spellings and foe example looking for tláloc with an accent in in Taube and Millers The Gods and Symbols of Ancient Mexico and the Maya or World Mythology by Duncan Baird Publishers would leave you dissapointed - the word is spelled with no accent in English. ·Maunus· · ƛ · 18:18, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Don't know if there's any good place for this tidbit
Found this fascinating item while doing research on Cantinflas in a periodicals database: Tlaloc received one write-in vote in the Mexican presidential election of July 5, 1964, coming in behind Cantinflas, who received two.(Associated Press. "Write-In votes" (news brief), The Dallas Morning News, July 24, 1964, section 1, page 5. Wording is mine.)

Incidentally, the AP news brief cited refers to him as "Tlaloc, the centuries-old Aztec stone god recently moved to Mexico City ... ." I mention that because that suggests there might be relevant articles in newspaper databases AND because the moving of the statue suggests one reason why he'd have been sufficiently at the forefront of voters' minds to get any votes at all. Lawikitejana 06:25, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

dubious horror story
This tearing off of the fingernails of children so as to make them cry - what is the source? I suggest this horror story be removed if no source is brought forward.77.162.130.139 (talk) 21:15, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
 * This aspect of aztec ritual is mentioned in "Conquest..." by Hugh Thomas, and he refers to the Florentine Codex. A reliable source. But probably an unimportant detail. Karstein (talk) 22:46, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

 * The source of this "horror story" is the very same linked source that the entire section is copy pasted from: https://www.mexicolore.co.uk/acrobats/319_1.pdf
 * The child torture was the whole point of the sacrificial ritual, it's not an unimportant detail. 47.234.225.14 (talk) 21:48, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

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The Illuminatus Trilogy
There are at least 10 mentions of Tlaloc in The Illuminatus Trilogy. This notation was apparently undone by user:Doug Weller as "unsourced" and "not significant". Leaving aside its significance for the moment, what would constituted proper sourcing for this type of notation? I have a PDF of the book and a search for the word generates 10 hits (I could quote one or more passages and refer to page numbers in a printed edition). Would that be sufficient sourcing? Hazratio (talk) 19:10, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
 * that's explicitly forbidden, see WP:NOR. Also see "In popular culture" content. Doug Weller  talk 19:52, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Simply because something is mentioned in a book or franchise does not necessarily demonstrate its significance in popular culture, especially when you don't explain how the subject's importance to the book/franchise is, especially if it's not regarded as being relevant enough to mention in depth at the parent page, or how the subject's role in the book/franchise affects popular culture's view of the subject.--Mr Fink (talk) 20:05, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Or, shorter: "If the topic isn't mentioned or discussed in the parent page, it's not notable to be mentioned in its own page."--Mr Fink (talk) 20:59, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

language
I think this article needs an overview of proper objective voice and sources 67.0.210.224 (talk) 08:39, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Tláloc


text:
Talk:Hylian

This page violates the general rule that a page name should be a noun. Perhaps redirect to Hyrule, with a bit added to Hyrule's intro? Derrick Coetzee 22:48, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I agree, but the example you give wouldn't quite fit, as that's a place and this is a race, it wouldn't really fit very well. But, similarly, what about Moblin and Korok and so forth. Aren't those also nouns? Master Thief Garrett 00:05, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Frankly, I think the idea of having a separate page for each of these concepts a bit ridiculous. We should create summary pages for Legend of Zelda enemies, races, and other concepts like that. These can then become redirects. I'm just not sure how to track them all down for merging or exactly how to title the new summary articles, since these do span across multiple games. Deco 00:51, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree, and I'll do any I find. I've already moved Makar off the Makar (poet) page. Multi-game characters should appear on the LOZ Chars page, single-game ones on the appropriate Chars page if one exists. Master Thief Garrett 02:07, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I've made a good start on this! There are now Characters and Enemies lists for each game I could find enough for, and I will also make a global Races list at some point. Master Thief Garrett 04:49, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Hylian


text:
Talk:Pan-American Highway

Merge proposal
Should Pan-American Highway (North America) and Pan-American Highway (South America) both be merged to this article? Reasons would include avoiding needless duplication of content, or possible conflicts in content, when different pages have been edited or updated at different times by different editors. This would instead create a single, comprehensive article. This would also have the benefit of a single talk page, instead of having discussions spread across two or three different pages, or having different editors discussing the same content on different pages, (either at the same to different times), leading to competing outcomes for the same content issues. Thoughts? - w o lf  09:37, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

 * Hey @TheWolfChild, this makes sense - we are talking about the exact same road but just in different continents so go ahead with it in my opinion. The International E-road network in Europe does not have a different page for every-single country, so don't know how this situation differs. Roads4117 (talk) 19:45, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * It's separate roads though. They do not connect because of the Darien Gap. For that reason, I wouldn't merge them.  Imzadi 1979  →   03:11, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The Trans-Canada Highway is found on both Vancouver Island and Newfoundland, each separated by bodies of water. Anyone wishing to travel those segaments from the mainland need to take a ferry, but we don't have separate articles because of that. I'm sure there's other examples, but surely you get the point. Furthermore, this page is called the "Pan-American Highway"... singular. The articles for the north and south legs require disambiguation. The content on both is essentially duplicated from the main article, (and vice-versa) or it should be. What's the benefit of having three pages for the same content, when it can all be easily and conveniently covered, and better kept up-to-date, by the single article? What's the downside here? - w o lf  06:24, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with this proposal, additonally both current articles should be kept as redirects. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 17:34, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
 * When travelers discuss the Pan American Highway, and when they actually traverse it, it's not considered two separate entities. To reflect user experience and user search intent, merging the two articles makes sense. OurOffbeatLife (talk) 00:18, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Pan-American Highway


text:
Trial of the Pyx

The Trial of the Pyx is a judicial ceremony in the United Kingdom to ensure that newly minted coins from the Royal Mint conform to their required dimensional and fineness specifications. Although coin quality is now tested throughout the year under laboratory conditions, the event has become an annual historic tradition. Each year, thousands of coins are put on trial, consisting of both those struck for circulation and non-circulating commemorative coins.

First held in the 12th century, the event takes place in the hall of the Worshipful Company of Goldsmiths in London, where the Deputy Master of the Mint (CE of the Royal Mint) is in effect put on trial before a High Court judge as metallurgical assayers and selected leaders from the financial world sample coins from the mint's output. The boxes in which coins are stored form the ceremony's namesake: the word pyx derives from the Greek πυξίς meaning 'wooden box'.

History
According to records from the Dialogus de Scaccario, in 1179 the weight and fineness of coinage received by England's Exchequer was examined for regulatory purposes under the supervision of the Baron of the Exchequer. At this time the Master of the Mint was ordered to put aside one coin for every ten pounds of silver minted so that they might be tested every three months. Found in the Red Book of the Exchequer, a section thought to be written in May 1279 titled "forma nova monete" ("A new form of currency") set forth procedures for a regular series of trials whereby the Master of the Mint became liable for failings in the currency standards. Coins were to be put into a box with two keys, each held by the master and warden and its contents tested four times a year.

In 1282, in the reign of Edward I, a writ was issued ordering barons to carry out pyx trials throughout the realm. The current statutory basis for the Trial of the Pyx is the Coinage Act 1971, the latest in a long series of similarly named Acts of Parliament. Specific procedures are established by Order in Council, the most recent being the Trial of the Pyx Order 1998, which was amended in 2005, 2012 and 2016. It is not required for a new Order to be issued for each Trial: this is required only to implement regulatory revision.

Prior to the Coinage Act 1870 trials took place at the Palace of Westminster and coins were stored in Westminster Abbey's Pyx Chapel. The Act moved the venue for the trial to Goldsmiths' Hall, the headquarters of the Worshipful Company of Goldsmiths who carry out the testing.

Procedure
Every year around February, the event begins with a meeting held in Goldsmiths' Hall. Attending the gathering are the Prime Warden of the Goldsmiths' Company, three of their supporting Wardens, the Head of the Assay Office, Liverymen, The Deputy Master of the Mint and the King's Remembrancer. The presiding judge is the King's Remembrancer (or Queen's Remembrancer when the sitting monarch is female), the Senior Master of the King's Bench. It is his or her responsibility to ensure that the trial be held in accordance with the law and to deliver the jury's final verdict to His Majesty's Treasury. Where and when a trial is to take place is at the Treasury's discretion, though there must be a trial in any year during which the Royal Mint issues coins.

Coins to be tested are drawn from the regular production of the Royal Mint. The Deputy Master of the Mint must, throughout the year, randomly select several thousand sample coins and place them aside for the Trial. These must be in a certain fixed proportion to the number of coins produced. For example, for every 5,000 bimetallic coins issued, one must be set aside, whereas for silver Maundy money the proportion is one in 150.

The jury is composed of at least six assayers from the Company of Goldsmiths. They have two months to test the provided coins, and decide whether they have been properly minted. Criteria are given for diameter, chemical composition and weight for each class of coinage. Depending on the number of coins being assayed there are a varying number of jurors needed. Sitting along a table, the jurors are handed packets of up to 50 coins, by a Royal Mint official, which they must count. Each juror selects one coin from the pile, places it in a copper bowl and it is then sent to be assayed. The remaining coins are either sent to be weighed or weighed at the table. Smaller denomination coins that are more numerous are counted by machine.

At the company's assay office, the coins which were placed in the copper bowls are melted down and formed into plates where their fineness and weight can be compared against a corresponding trial plate which acts as a benchmark. After three months of testing, a ceremony presided over by the King's Remembrancer is held, when the final verdict is given. Attending the event and receiving the verdict under the capacity as Master of the Mint is the Chancellor of the Exchequer or his Deputy Master, the Chief Executive of the Royal Mint.

If the coinage is found to be substandard, the trial carries a punishment for the Master of the Mint of a fine, removal from office, or imprisonment. The last master of the mint to be punished was Isaac Newton in 1696, though he later showed that the mistake originated in a faulty reference.

List of trials
Prior to the Coinage Act 1971 which ordered a trial to be held at least once a year, trials were carried out in no particular order and often covered the coinage of multiple years.

Trials during the reign of Elizabeth II
Trials were held in every calendar year of the reign of Elizabeth II, starting in 1952.

title: Trial of the Pyx


text:
Östergötlands storregemente

Östergötlands storregemente or Landsregementet i Östergötland (Östergötland Grand Regiment, Regiment of the Land in Östergötland) was one of the nine grand regiments organized by Gustavus Adolphus in the late 1610s and split into smaller regiments in the 1620s.

History
Raised in Götaland from smaller units of 500 men called fänikor, more specifically from the province of Östergötland and in the county of Jönköping, in 1618 and counting 3,000 men (at the time, it counted 2,176 men). The grand regiment was in turn organized into three field regiments (fältregementen) and a cavalry regiment, thus actually being more like a brigade in spite of the name.

The regiment did not take part in any campaign during its short lifetime. The grand regiments of Sweden where reorganized during the early 1620s to consist of three field regiments, each of eight companies of 150 men, thus making the total number 3,600 soldiers per grand regiment. It is unsure whether or not the cavalry regiment was included in the total number.

In 1623, the regiment was split into three smaller regiments, Östergötland Infantry Regiment, Jönköping Regiment and Östergötland Cavalry Regiment.

Campaigns

 * None.

Organization
Before being split, the regiment was organized as follows:

 * 1:a fältregementet (1st Field Regiment)
 * 6 companies from Östergötland
 * 2 companies from Jönköping County
 * 2:a fältregementet (2nd Field Regiment)
 * 8 companies from Jönköping County
 * 3:e fältregementet (3rd Field Regiment)
 * 3 companies from Östergötland
 * 1 company from Jönköping County
 * 1 company from Västergötland
 * 3 companies "Vacant"
 * Kavalleriregementet (Cavalry Regiment)
 * 8 companies from Östergötland

authors: Ἀλέξανδρος Ζεύς

title: Östergötlands storregemente


text:
Master key

Master key may refer to:

 * Master keying, a special type of key designed to open multiple locks
 * Master Key, a pricing game on The Price Is Right
 * Knight's Armament Company Masterkey, a door breaching shotgun
 * One of the encryption keys used in a Master/Session encryption scheme
 * Master Key (TV series), a South Korean variety show
 * Master Key (Video Game) an independent video game by developer Achromi

title: Master key


text:
Talk:Linguistic description

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Synchronic linguistics
Synchronic linguistics redirects here, but the term is never mentioned in the article. Is it just a synomym (in which case it should be mentioned in the lead) or is there a difference in meaning (in which case we should define it). -- Jmabel 23:03, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)

 * Descriptive linguistics has its own article, but prescriptive linguistics gets redirected to prescription and description. Was ist los!!!!!!!!!!!!!1112edv,, -Branddobbe 09:03, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

 * It's because descriptive linguistics is not merely the antonym of prescriptive linguistics, but rather refers to a much broader aspect of linguistics of which "descriptive linguistics in English" is only a tiny part, if even related. - Mustafaa

Synchronic linguistics no longer redirects here. Users following a link to "synchronic" need an explanation of what synchronic means in a linguistic context. --Doric Loon (talk) 14:47, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Orthography
Orthography is not an essential part of descriptive linguistics; in fact, it's not even part of descriptive linguistics also except as a time-saving tool so that the descriptor need not exclusively use IPA. It should not be included as one of the criteria for a "good" (good? should this be "useful"?  "Rigorous"? something less subjective?) linguistic description-- there are plenty of languages lacking orthography which can be described in a "good" fashion.

Barring any sort of objection or explanation, I'm going to go ahead and remove the orthography reference. variable 19:35, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This article should not exist
"Descriptive linguistics" is an oxymoron. Linguistics is descriptive. There is no such thing as "prescriptive linguistics."

 * Open up a high school grammar book. That is prescriptive linguistics.siafu 19:46, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * And you meant to say "Descriptive linguistics" is redundant, not that it is an oxymoron. (Unless the use of 'oxymoron' to mean 'redundant expression' is for some strange reason prevalent in use among those who don't know better, in which case I'll quickly flee from the descriptivists here!)
 * Please sign your posts on talk pages per Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks! Hyacinth 20:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Merge
Should this be merged into prescription and description? - SimonP 19:42, July 29, 2005 (UTC)
 * No, why do you say that? This shouldn't be merged with linguistic descriptivism either, though I can see merging the latter with prescription and description. Descriptive linguistics is not an antonym to "prescriptive linguistics", they are orthogonal at best. Descriptive linguistics is about describing languages (as they actually are), just as a subset of biology is about describing animals, what they look like, where they live, what they eat etc... Prescriptivism (in English) is something that happened because some pedants read too much latin in the 19th century and wanted to improve English. In other languages it is also a symptom of nationalism and the then just starting attempts at educating the unwashed masses. Quite different beasts! Kaleissin 14:05, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

List of Descriptive Linguists
I removed Bill Croft, who has not described any language afaik. Jasyjatere 12:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * His article mentions he tried to “compare and contrast the grammatical features of different natural languages”. That wouldn't be possible if he didn't describe them at the same time. --Kjoonlee 12:31, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Excuse me, but you seem to be mistaken here. It is perfectly possible to compare languages without describing them. To do that, you take a number of grammar books from the library, look up the description of a particular phenomenon and compare them. None of the books has to be written by you. Actually, this is a subdiscipline of linguistic which is called Linguistic typology. I agree that many typologists have also done some descriptive work at a certain point in time of their carreer, but this is not always so. AFAIK, Joseph Greenberg or Matthew Dryer, which are two very important typologists, have not written descriptive stuff. Same goes for Bill Croft.
 * The other authors in the list at the bottom of the article are known for the grammars they have written. I ask you to point out a grammar that has been written by Bill Croft. Jasyjatere 07:05, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Opposition? Controversy?
Am I the only one who finds this section pointless and not reflective of any actual controversy among linguists? Bjart 07:19, 22 February 2007 (UTC) I concur. Maybe. Yeah, but that is why DL aims at being theory neutral, to allow precisely this. And there is Basic Linguistic Theory as well. pure POV. Who says that? 62.131.79.6 14:35, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * "The purpose of linguistic theory, so far as a practical linguist is concerned, is to make descriptions of morphology and syntax comprehensible."
 * "It is easy to see that the same data can often be described in different ways."
 * "For a while there was an active desire to find some measure which would allow some one description to be called the best. Today that goal seems to have been given up as chimerical."

Descriptive grammar
Why does "Descriptive grammar" redirect here? Linguistics is naturally descriptive; grammar used to be prescriptive, that was the point. Ampwright (talk) 23:23, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

The see also section
Aren't those links a bit... arbitrary? LOL. Kayau (talk · contribs) 15:48, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Why are there random Cyrillic letters scattered in this article?
I'm inclined to remove them; I don't think they are serving any purpose. Ullpianissimo (talk) 10:26, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Language documentation and description
Should this page discuss about language documentation and language description (in Himmelmann's sense: Himmelmann, Nikolaus P. 2002. Documentary and descriptive linguistics (full version). In Osamu Sakiyama & Fubito Endo (eds.), Lectures on endangered languages: 5, 37–83. Kyoto: Endangered Languages of the Pacific Rim.)? --SynConlanger (talk) 09:37, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 19 April 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move - this has been here for two listing periods, and I don't see a firm consensus to move one or both of the articles. Carry on discussing and then list one of them again if you think you might make progress. — Amakuru (talk) 15:29, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

– WP:COMMONNAME. Google brings up more results in university domains for "Descriptive linguistics", even though most instances of the current title are likely just descriptions that happen to be linguistic. Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 12:51, 19 April 2016 (UTC) --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 05:13, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Linguistic description → Descriptive linguistics
 * Linguistic prescription → Prescriptive linguistics
 * Comment—you might want to look at the third comment at Talk:Linguistic prescription, and at User:Torgo—but also at what NGRAM has to say. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 05:21, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

 * Support "Descriptive linguistics" but Oppose "Prescriptive linguistics". The first is indeed a branch of linguistics contrasting with theoretical linguistics. However there is no such thing as prescriptive linguistics - there is only linguistic prescription which is almost exclusively practiced outside of the discipline of linguistics. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 08:41, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

 * Oppose Prescription and description are not branches of linguistics. They are activities that linguists (and others) may be involved in. In particular, I think most linguists would be horrified at the idea of a "prescriptive linguistics". If you really don't like the current titles, "language description" and "language prescription" would be the next best thing. But I wouldn't change these myself. --Doric Loon (talk) 09:49, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * "Descriptive linguistics" actually is a "branch" or "field" of linguistics. Linguistic prescription is not.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 18:58, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Shit. I think you might be right. I hadn't even thought of that point. Somehow when I posted this, in my memory I had gotten "prescriptive grammar" and "prescriptive linguistics" (sic?) mixed up, and didn't notice that problem until I said it out loud. That said, even when pointing out that linguistics is by definition descriptive and not prescriptive, linguists do appear to contrast "prescriptive [linguistics] and descriptive linguistics". In fact, the phrase "prescriptive linguistics" appears to be somewhat more common than "linguistic prescription". My studies in this area don't go beyond undergraduate classes, so I'm not sure if scholars who title their books Language Standardization: Studies in Prescriptive Linguistics represent a fringe view equivalent the views that "the New Testament has never been altered and its constituent books essentially free of intertextual contradictions" and "there were not many Christianities", or if they are just using particular (common) terminology to describe a phenomenon that is itself theoretically opposed to modern linguistics. Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 13:20, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't put too much weight on Google hit-counts. --Doric Loon (talk) 16:29, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Possible inaccuracies
I take issue specifically with the line "All academic research in linguistics is descriptive; like all other scientific disciplines, it seeks to describe reality, without the bias of preconceived ideas about how it ought to be." I'm not sure that "all" academic research in linguistics can be described as descriptive. I'm thinking specifically of some of the more obscure branches of syntax, which are more theoretical in nature. In fact, I'm not sure that linguists such as Chomsky would even concede that language (as it exists in the brain) can be described. I'll agree that most academic research in linguistics is probably descriptive, but not all. Ultrerurale (talk) 00:59, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Linguistic description


text:
Super Black Market Clash

Super Black Market Clash is a 1993 compilation album released by the English punk rock band The Clash. It contains B-sides and rare tracks not available on the group's regular studio albums. The album is an expanded repackaging of the 1980 release Black Market Clash, a 10-inch EP containing nine songs. The man in the foreground of the front cover art on both releases is Don Letts, who worked with The Clash on several projects and later was a founding member of Big Audio Dynamite.

Black Market Clash
Black Market Clash was released in October 1980, only in the US and Canada, in between London Calling and Sandinista!. It compiled recordings which were then unavailable in the US except as imports. The disc was one in the series of "Nu-Disk" 10-inch records from Epic. Other artists in the series included New Musik and Cheap Trick.

"The Prisoner," the cover of "Pressure Drop" by Toots and the Maytals, "City of the Dead," and "Armagideon Time" had all been UK b-sides from the period 1977–79, respectively of "White Man in Hammersmith Palais," "English Civil War," "Complete Control," and "London Calling." "Pressure Drop" is presented here in a remix by Bill Price.

At the time of release, this was the only record that featured the cover of the "Time Is Tight" instrumental by Booker T & the MGs. "Capital Radio" was extremely rare in the UK. Rather than re-issue the original the group recorded a new version for The Cost of Living as "Capital Radio Two." "Cheat" is from their UK debut album but had been left off the US version.

"Bankrobber" had been a UK A-side. "Robber Dub" was originally intended for the b-side of an unreleased "Bankrobber" 12" dance club single. The two tracks appear here in a combined edit that is unique to Black Market Clash. "Justice Tonight/Kick It Over", the dub version of "Armagideon Time", is the last track. This was previously available as the B-side to the 12-inch "London Calling" club single. The full length version of "Justice Tonight/Kick It Over" is 8:54 and the 7:00 edited version is also unique to Black Market Clash.

Black Market Clash was reissued in the 1980s on 12-inch vinyl and cassette, with the same track listing as the 10-inch. It was re-released on compact disc in 1991, but discontinued when Super Black Market Clash replaced it. It was available again for a short period of time in 2006 in a few countries. It was reissued on 10-inch vinyl again in 2011.

Black Market Clash was issued in Japan in 1992, with liner notes in Japanese.

Track listing
All songs written by Joe Strummer and Mick Jones, except where noted.

Side one
 * 1) "Capital Radio One" – 2:09
 * 2) "The Prisoner" – 3:00
 * 3) "Pressure Drop" (Toots Hibbert) – 3:30
 * 4) "Cheat" – 2:06
 * 5) "The City of the Dead" – 2:26
 * 6) "Time Is Tight" (Booker T. Jones, Steve Cropper, Donald "Duck" Dunn, Al Jackson) – 4:05

Side two
 * 1) "Bankrobber/Robber Dub" (Strummer, Jones, Mikey Dread) – 6:16
 * 2) "Armagideon Time" (Willie Williams, Jackie Mittoo) – 3:50
 * 3) "Justice Tonight/Kick It Over" (edit) (Williams, Mittoo) – 7:00

Personnel

 * Joe Strummer – lead vocals, guitars, piano, organ
 * Mick Jones – guitars, vocals, piano, harmonica, sound effects
 * Paul Simonon – bass guitar, vocals
 * Terry Chimes – drums on "Capital Radio" and "Cheat"
 * Topper Headon – drums and percussion on "The Prisoner", "Pressure Drop", "The City of the Dead", "Time Is Tight", "Bankrobber"/"Robber Dub," "Armagideon Time", and "Justice Tonight"/"Kick It Over"

Additional musicians
 * Mick Gallagher - ARP synthesizer and piano on "Bankrobber", organ on "Armagideon Time"
 * Gary Barnacle – saxophone on "Time Is Tight" and "The City of the Dead"

Super Black Market Clash
Super Black Market Clash is a compilation album released by The Clash in 1993, containing B-sides and rare tracks not available on their studio albums. It is an expanded repackaging of the 1980 Black Market Clash EP, a single 10" record with nine songs. The cover art follows the design of the original but is rendered in different colors.

Super Black Market Clash was released on CD and in a 3x10" vinyl edition, but does not contain the tracks "Capital Radio One", "Cheat", "Bankrobber/Robber Dub" or "Armagideon Time" found on the original EP. At the time of re-release, "Capital Radio One", "Bankrobber" and "Armagideon Time" had recently been included on the compilations The Story of the Clash, Volume 1 and Clash on Broadway, so omitting the tracks did not affect their availability. The extended release also replaces the version of "Pressure Drop" that appeared on Black Market Clash with the B-side mix, and "Justice Tonight/Kick It Over" is a longer version than the track on Black Market Clash.

With 21 tracks, Super Black Market Clash does not fully compile the Clash's B-sides and rarities. It does however contain important songs, such as three from The Cost of Living EP and several B-sides previously unavailable on CD including "The Cool Out" (a remix of "The Call Up") and "Long Time Jerk" (although in a shorter version than appeared as the B-side to "Rock the Casbah").

The artwork for the remaster corrects an error in the track listing on the original ("Pressure Drop" was listed as track 5 and "The Prisoner" as track 6 when they actually play in the opposite sequence). The original version of the revised artwork also introduced a new error by listing "Radio Clash" as "This Is Radio Clash" (the former song, which appears on the album, is the B-side to the latter song which does not), corrected on later pressings.

The Clash's entire catalog, including this album, was remastered and re-released in January 2000.

Personnel

 * Joe Strummer – lead vocals, rhythm guitar, piano
 * Mick Jones – lead guitar, vocals, piano
 * Paul Simonon – bass, vocals
 * Terry Chimes – drums on "1977" and "Listen"
 * Topper Headon – drums, percussion on all other tracks

Additional musicians
 * Gary Barnacle – saxophone on "1–2 Crush on You" and "Time Is Tight"

title: Super Black Market Clash