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Talk:Washington Metro/Archive 1

Map
The current map is crap, IMHO, it misrepresents the positions of many stations. Is the official Metro one public domain? (The one that shows the routes of the trains in relation to streets, not the one that is stations only) Sycocowz 22:26, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)

I think it is about on par with the metro one (that doesn't show the streets). It is distorted, especially where the different lines angle around each other (eg the farruguts, metro center area). I am not familiar with the map you are talking of, can you post an URL. I doubt it will be in the public domain, the rest of them aren't. Lorax 01:28, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

 * The official map is NOT public domain; I asked. I'll check my email to see if they offered any out, but I don't recall one. What don't you like about it, Sycocowz? How is it bad compared to the official map? --Golbez 01:44, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

 * Some quick problems I see: The eastern part of the red line is south-east of where it should be, since when is Silver Spring in DC? Foggy Bottom and Rosslyn look like they're on the water, when they're somewhat inland. Also, last time I checked, DC was shaped as a rectangle, I don't remember this vertical border in SE :) Too many of the stations look equidistant to me, maybe this map was warped to make equidistant stations work? Do you know what map I'm referring to in the comment above, the one they put on top of where it shows you the fare to various locations? It seems that that would be the best representation, if one could find it and roughly copy it. I'll try and bring my camera next time I go on the metro. Sycocowz 15:00, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

 * 1) Silver Spring is a valid complaint, though shows it to be very close to the border. 2) They look like they're on the coast; best thing to do there would be to narrow the river. Remember, this is not an exact representation, it's a metro map, in the grand tradition of the London Underground map. The real Metro Map is inaccurate; the western branch of the Red Line extends much, much farther north than the eastern branch, yet on the official map, they both terminate at the same latitude. 3) Good point with SE, but to make it accurate would mean making the image even wider. :) 4) I'm searching Outlook for my email from the WMATA... 5) These complains should be addressed primarily to the map's creator, User:Montrealais. --Golbez 00:06, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

 * Regarding the distance between the Silver Spring metro and the DC line, I can only confirm that it is a matter of no more than three blocks along Colesville Road. --Etoile 23:29, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Today's Washington Post has a miniature picture on the front that shows the route of the lines through the district. Can anyone get a photo of this? I know we cant use it, but it's good reference for a future map. Sycocowz 21:48, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)

 * Perhaps an alternative map would be the Washington D.C. Metro Route Map by Michael Calcagno. --Etoile 00:16, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, and copyrighted, though I haven't asked if he'd allow us. --Golbez 02:24, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)

 * Ah, nevermind. Michael Calcagno's NYC subway route map says: Please note: We do not allow reproduction rights of our map. Please don't ask. If you wish to use a subway map in your own project, you should consider licensing the official MTA map.  So I guess that's the same policy for the DC map. --Etoile 19:49, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

BTW, here's the email I got from WMATA:

Good afternoon, Mr. Leonard. Your e-mail regarding the use of the Metrorail System map was given to me for review and reply. You are welcome to create a direct link to our Web-site and the Metro System map to enable your customers to readily access Metro information. The Metrorail System map is a copyrighted piece, and use of the map is closely monitored. You must request permission to use the map. If permission is granted, you will be sent a current version of the map in a high-resolution electronic format (suitable for printing) and also provided with a full list of the guidelines pertaining to its use. One of the guidelines is that the requestor will not alter the map in any fashion, by adding or deleting information. Thank you for your interest in Metro. If you'd like to request permission to use the map, please call me or reply to this e-mail. Please include specifics regarding how you intend to use the map. Sincerely,

Carmen Mack Information Specialist WMATA Office of Marketing

I'm guessing this license would not be compatible with Wikipedia. --Golbez 00:06, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

 * Another problem with this current map is that is the Green line looks completely different from the official map. I'm suggesting we take down the current map and link to the official one. Also, to Golbez, I think you should press into this more. Who knows, you may be able to get them to relicense it for Wikipedia with enough pressure. - Colin Barrett 04:30, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

 * I wonder if a different solution might work better... I designed my own WMATA map for my Transit Center Web site, and it follows the shapes and proportions of the official WMATA map much more closely. Take a look, and let me know what you think:

 * Schumin Web Transit Center WMATA Map

 * And I'll happily license it under GNU if you think it's worth using on Wikipedia. Schuminweb 21:25, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Does anyone have any information on buying naming rights for metro stations? The persistant rumor at American University is that AU paid a million dollars to get Tenleytown renamed Tenleytown-AU. I don't know if that's the truth, and if naming rights are open exclusively to educational institutions or not. It would be interesting material to see in the article.

 * I haven't heard that (but that doesn't mean it isn't true). I wouldn't be suprised if AU at the very least paid the cost of the changes to signs/maps/brochures, that could add up to a significant amount.

Purple Line
I'm surprised there isn't any information on the proposed purple line to service the suburbs and create the wagon wheel to support the spoke structure. Of course, this is supported by hippies, and while it is on hold due to the political ramifications of a republican governor and a prior democratic governor who was not frugal with his budget, it is a matter of hot debate for long term residents. Here's the Sierra Club's take: Purple Line :: DC Metro Sprawl --ojin 05:53, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
 * This isn't actually a well-known proposal, believe it or not. Despite all the complaining they do, DC-area commuters don't necessarily keep themselves informed about current projects to ease congestion.  Those who have heard of the purple line, in my experience, have no idea that it's anything more than a rumor.  ("My experience" consists of water cooler chatter, for the most part.) -Etoile 05:00, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

FAC
I want to bring this article up to Featured article-status. Right now, what I think it needs is 1) An up-to-date map (Montrealais has been contacted, but I may make one on my own) and 2) I think a physical map would be useful, in addition to the abstract system map. But if we're making them ourselves, then maybe this could be combined. Anyone else have any ideas of what's needed? It seems pretty solid. --Golbez July 5, 2005 21:51 (UTC)

 * I don't think that a physical map is absolutely necessary. I think that the system map gets the point across sufficiently, though I think that on the one we have, the shapes look a little weird.  I don't think updating the map would be all too difficult.  All we'd need to do would be to fill in the end of the Blue Line and bold in those names.  Schuminweb 7 July 2005 21:34 (UTC)

 * There is one problem with that map that has been pointed out before - it smushes the east end of the district. Now, true, doing that helps fit the map in that space, but it's still a nasty distortion, especially when the district's dimensions are so specific. --Golbez July 7, 2005 21:44 (UTC)

Two-car trains
From the article: "Trains are usually four or six cars; eight-car trains are used on high-traffic days, while two-car trains are sometimes used for low-ridership days like work holidays."

I have NEVER seen a two-car train in all the riding I've done. The only time that two-car trains ran was June 2004, when it was instituted in late evenings as a cost-saving measure. However, this was discontinued two or three days later due to complaints.

What I've found is that eight-car trains only run on special event days such as the inauguration (eight-car trains ran on the Red Line), for major delays (with the Woodley Park accident, all Red Line trains were eight cars), and Nationals games (where Orange Line trains are often eight cars). Six-car trains are your most common configuration outside of the late evening on most lines. Four-car trains mostly run on weekends, mid-day, and late evenings. Basically all your low-ridership times. Two-car trains are RARE.

Schuminweb 7 July 2005 21:43 (UTC)

 * I am positive I've seen two-car trains before, on holidays like Thanksgiving. I rode the Metro on Thanksgiving Day in 1998, and I remember being surprised that the train only had two cars. And even then, it was mostly empty. Washington is a ghost town on Thanksgiving. --Golbez July 7, 2005 21:46 (UTC)

De-stubification of individual station pages
To explain for a moment why I removed the stub markers for the individual station pages...

I cross-checked the pages marked as stubs with the information on both nycsubway.org as well as what I wrote on my own site, The Schumin Web Transit Center. All the pages that were marked as stubs contained the same or more information than those pages' introductions, indicating to me at least that there's not much more to say about those stations, thus while the article is short, it is for the most part complete, thus by definition, no longer a stub. Schuminweb 10:29, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Separate history page?
As I work on the BART section of the Richard A. White article, I realize that BART and WMATA both have a lot of history that I would be interested in reading about and writing in Wikipedia about. I thought it might be a good idea to start a separate History of the Washington Metro page, similar to the History of the New York City Subway. (It even has daughter articles like Dual Contracts.) The excellent History section in Washington Metro is already getting a bit long. Thoughts? Massysett 20:19, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

 * In the spirit of making good comparisons between them here, I looked at the parent article and child articles that you cited, and then at WMATA's "History" section.

 * My gut feeling is that for New York, there's enough written there for there to be lots of specific articles relating to history, since New York was originally three separate systems that were later unified, etc. etc. etc. not to mention that New York's system first opened in 1904, 72 years earlier than Metro.

 * For the Washington Metro article, I don't think we're there yet (but I can see it coming). If we can get some really good write-ups about the planning of the system, the different architecture methods considered, etc., we could pull it off, since that would be more than enough to fill out a good article on Metro history.  There's an "online exhibit" about Metro's planning here.  Right now, all we have about Metro's early planning and construction in the existing article are three sentences.  So we're basically starting from scratch there.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 10:18, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Rolling stock facts/figures section (the numbers)
I'd like to point out a few issues I'm having with the section on the individual car series' sections. Most of these are minor "tweak" kind of issues, and one is more significant.

 * One disagreement of facts. On the 4000-series cars, it lists the motors as made by Westinghouse.  Previous information I'd received on this from Oren H. (who really knows his technical stuff) stated that it was Gupta-Permold who made the Bredas' original DC motors, not Westinghouse.

 * On kind of that same note, we do need references on the car stats in general.

 * I can see the question now: If the car numbers only go up to 3289, why did I get a car numbered 3290 (or 3291)? There is a set numbered 3290-3291  , and the pair is a "mismatched" set, created from the mates of the two cars that collided in the 1996 accident at Shady Grove.  We need to put a footnote or something in there, but I'm not quite sure how we want to do this.  I can get the original car numbers from the report on the accident later.

 * We need to include information about the Rohrs' and 2000 and 3000 Bredas' information before rehab. The last one (the unrehabbed 3000 Bredas) still has many cars running on the railroad.  My understanding is that the 2000 Series cars had somewhat different equipment than the other two series of Breda cars (something to do with cams, but I'm not the one to ask to elaborate on that), and were incompatible with the Rohrs or other Breda series.

 * New Alstom order: My understanding is that the car bodies are being manufactured in Spain, and then finished off in Hornell.

 * Maximum train length and minimum train length in general: The minimum train length (two cars) is related to the rolling stock (due to married pairs), but the maximum length isn't specifically related to the rail cars. That's due to the station design, since any train longer than eight cars will be unable to put all of its cars on the platform.  In addition, trains longer than eight cars do run, but not in revenue service.  This is done when two trains are coupled together in order to push a disabled train back to the yard, etc.

Thoughts? SchuminWeb (Talk) 12:44, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Last year, I talked to Oren H. and provided information to him about the motor systems used on Metro. I originally stated that Gupta Permold did build the Breda Motors. After doing further research though, I found that they are indeed Westinghouse motors that were used, and Gupta Permold was one of the companies that was contracted to build them. Swiger Coil Systems is a company that did upgrades. Their website is www.guptapermold.com. Because of the new information, I decided not to include Gupta Permold and instead used the Swiger Coil Systems link as part of the article after finding out they were Westinghouse branded propulsion.

As for the original Breda 2000 series cars, they did have a cam control system for the propulsion, which did make them incompatible since 3000-4000 series Breda cars do use a chopper system. Breda's website (www.ansaldobreda.it) does still show the car profile for Metro and lists equipment for all series that they built. Metro switched to the Westinghouse chopper system because it was more efficient and can withstand voltage fluctuations much better thus providing better performance. I don't know of the reasons why they were incompatible though and am not sure of the original propulsion system that was on that specific set of cars. Same with Rohr 1000 cars where I don't know what was originally run but do know it was a different cam control system than the Bredas. Babyox4420 6:47 PM EST January 4, 2006

Rearrangement in order?
It seems that the way the article is currently arranged, it comes off as a touch choppy. Copying the table of contents from the article, we have this:

1 Metrorail network  2 History  3 Safety and Security  3.1 Rules and Regulations  3.2 Accidents  4 Accountability  5 Funding  6 Future expansion  7 Rolling stock  7.1 1000-Series  7.2 2000-Series  7.3 3000-Series  7.4 4000-Series  7.5 5000-Series  7.6 6000-Series (On Order)  8 Signaling and Operation
 9 Intermodal transport
 10 See also
 11 References
 12 External links

Thus we have the intro, talk about the system, its history, safety, go into management issues, then back to the railroad itself, and finally to "Intermodal transport" before the "See also", "References", and "External links". It seems to skip all over the place.

Here's how I'd arrange things:

1 Metrorail network
 2 Rolling stock
 2.1 1000-Series
 2.2 2000-Series
 2.3 3000-Series
 2.4 4000-Series
 2.5 5000-Series
 2.6 6000-Series (On Order)
 3 Signaling and Operation
 4 Safety and Security
 4.1 Rules and Regulations
 4.2 Accidents
 5 Intermodal transport
 6 Funding
 7 Accountability
 8 History
 9 Future expansion
 10 See also
 11 References
 12 External links

Why this order? It tries to put related topics together. We talk about the rail system, including the network itself, its rolling stock, the signaling, and safety and security. Then we talk about intermodal transportation. Metro to other modes of transportation. Then we get to more "management" topics, such as its funding and accountability. Then we get into Metro's history, and its future expansion. And then following that is our "end material".

Whatcha think? SchuminWeb (Talk) 12:59, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Still no thoughts? Wondering what anyone thinks about this rearrangement proposal...  SchuminWeb (Talk) 18:11, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Here are some thoughts...
 * I think the article is way too long, and suggest:
 * Details such as Rolling stock series be split off into a sub-article. That would help the readability of the article.
 * "Inter-modal transport" is an extension of the "Metrorail network"; So these two sections need to be tied together.
 * Going in chronological order, as many articles on Wikipedia do, History should be #1 or #2 (after Metrorail network).
 * Rolling stock is very much related to history, so should be grouped under or after History.
 * The paragraph in the introduction, about the architecture and design should also go under History.
 * Future expansion is dependant on funding, so those two topics ought to be sequential.

 * How about arranging the article as:
 * Metrorail network
 * Intermodal transport
 * History
 * Rolling stock
 * Signaling and Operation
 * Safety and Security
 * Rules and Regulations
 * Accidents
 * Accountability
 * Funding
 * Future expansion
 * See also
 * References
 * External links
 * --Aude 19:10, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

 * I agree with you that the article has grown a bit too large. I like the idea of splitting the "Rolling Stock" section off into its own article.  That part has grown to be a bit of a monster, and is well suited to being a separate article.  Also, your plan for rearrangement is a good one, since it puts it all together quite nicely.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 04:37, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree that rolling stock could be split off and linked to the original. It has grown a lot lately and it would give a chance for us to be more detailed on what we know, show more pictures, sound clips, video clips, etc. It could definitely add to the article. Babyox4420 7:01PM EST, January 4, 2006

Parking lot gates open in mornings?
Regarding the following text from the article:

In December 2005, Metro announced that on weekday mornings, the gates to the parking lot would be open.

I have searched and searched through the December press releases at wmata.com and through the December chats at forums-wmata.com, and I have found nothing to substantiate this statement, and this is why I've marked it with the tag. Can someone provide the source for this statement?

The most recent documentation that I've found regarding parking hours is from a press release dated June 24, 2004 stating that parking hours will be expanded from 9 AM until closing. Additionally, my own experience in using Metro's parking facilities, primarily at Vienna, leads me to believe that nothing has changed on this front. When I arrive at Vienna in the morning around 9:30, the parking gates are already down, and thus a SmarTrip is required to exit at that time.

Again, a source for this statement would be appreciated. SchuminWeb (Talk) 04:31, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Rationale for removing Huntington snippet
Regarding this passage from the article:

Huntington is the only station in the system whose name contains none of the letters in the word 'mackerel' (see entry on London Underground for similar info)

Viewing the articles about the Metro as a whole, including the station pages, trivia about the stations has been included on the pages for those stations. Examples can be found on Brookland-CUA about the curved platform, Glenmont regarding lighting, etc. Thus the bit regarding Huntington being the only station not to contain any letters that are also found in the word "mackerel", if this is actually encyclopedic at all (I doubt it is), would belong on Huntington. SchuminWeb (Talk) 22:53, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

 * The "trivia" isn't encyclopedic at all; thus, doesn't need to go here or in the Huntington article. -Aude (talk | contribs) 00:12, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I say put it in this page; the London Underground is the grandpappy of subways, and if mackerel is an odd thing there, and we have an identical situation (with fewer stations), why not? --Golbez 05:06, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with Golbez, Wikipedia is about collecting knowledge. I ride the Metro all the time, and I never knew that until I read it here. It isn't false, irrelevant nor inappropriate. Just because it is trivia doesn't mean it is trivial to everyone. -- MicahMN | μ 05:37, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

 * What's the significance of 'mackerel' in London? Where does it come from?  If one could click on mackerel (or external link) and find out, I then I wouldn't mind including it.  Otherwise, one bit of trivia sets a precedent for a section that I've seen get excessive on other articles.  This article is already quite long as-is. -Aude (talk | contribs) 05:56, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I believe there is a compelling case for keeping it. It's a "gee, how about that" trivia item that relates to the overall metro system, and it has precedents not only in the London Underground article on Wikipedia but apparently also in other contexts (from The Mackerel Theorem: "There are quite a few of these "mackerel" related groups - the only team in the football league with no letters from the word "mackerel" is Swindon Town. The only US state with no such letters is Ohio. The only such element of the periodic table is tin."). --Elvee 18:16, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Elvee, let me pick your mind for a moment, especially as this has drifted from my original premise (placing it in Huntington (Washington Metro) instead of Washington Metro). My problem is not so much the content, but rather the location of the content.  Since only one station contains this "mackerel" property (Huntington), why not put this on the article specific to that station, vs. on the article about the entire system?  I have no problem with the "mackerel" bit if it's placed properly.  Lemme know what you think.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 23:40, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Because that kind of marginalizes it, and no, the trivia isn't just about Huntington - Huntington is the exception to the Mackerel rule here, but the trivia applies to the whole system. --Golbez 23:44, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

 * The statement is about the set of names of the whole metro system, and not just the single station Huntington, so, if it belongs on any extant page, it belongs here. If someone is going to come to wikipedia to look for the answer they are going to either come here or to mackerel.  This page seems the only place to include it.  Can you explain better why you think it is not a quality of the whole metro system or why it (if included) should go on the mackerel page? (continued next paragraph)

 * To provide some context for adding it to wikipedia, I have run into this question/trivia three times in public. Once it was asked/mentioned on WTOP (perhaps 1.5-2 years ago), once (according to a friend, so technically it is "hearsay") it was mentioned on one of the FM rock stations here in DC, and most recently at a "trivia night" at a bar in town.  I was then perusing the London Underground page and ran into the similar trivia there and the "whoa, I guess this 'mackerel' thing is bigger than just some weird metro trivia - let's add it to wikipedia where people will look for it" neuron fired in my head. Georschm 02:51, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm convinced we should add this trivia. We just need to watch what other trivia gets added, so the list of trivia doesn't get excessive. Though, one other "fact" I think belongs is that the Wheaton station has the longest escalator in the western hemisphere.  -Aude (talk | contribs) 05:02, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm joining this party quite late just to say that I agree that this bit should be removed. I was just about to post here to ask what the import of the statement is, so I'm not surprised to see the question has been raised before.  To me, this is like saying "Jimmy is the only student in his 3rd-grade class to have a name starting with j.  This is backed up by the website a fan of the letter made documenting names that include the letter j."  Unless someone can provide a source saying that this is a very commonly discussed bit of trivia, to the point that it cannot be separated from discussions of the Metro as a whole, it really should go.  At the very least, it shouldn't be listed at the top as the most prominent trivia bit. Beginning 02:33, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree with you on your point, but just to let you know about why it's the first one, the reason is simply because it was the first bit of trivia to be added (the "trivia" section was created in the first place to hold this useless-yet-controversial little fact). SchuminWeb (Talk) 22:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

 * In that case, I'm moving it to the bottom for now until the issue is resolved about whether it should remain. To see that as the most important piece of unimportant information was a bit startling to this reader, even as someone expecting useless trivia.  ;)  Beginning 22:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Routes
Any idea what H and I were to be? Dulles and Columbia Pike branches? --SPUI (talk - don't use sorted stub templates! ) 05:57, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
 * A (Rockville Route) Metro Center - Shady Grove (red)
 * B (Glenmont Route) Metro Center - Glenmont (red)
 * C (Huntington Route) Metro Center - Huntington (blue/orange-blue-blue/yellow-yellow)
 * D (New Carrollton Route) Metro Center - New Carrollton (blue/orange-orange)
 * E (Branch Avenue Route) Gallery Place - Branch Avenue (green/yellow-green)
 * F (Greenbelt Route) Gallery Place - Greenbelt (green/yellow-green)
 * G (Addison Road Route) D junction - Largo Town Center (blue)
 * J (Franconia-Springfield Route) C junction - Franconia-Springfield (blue)
 * K (Vienna Route) C junction - Vienna (orange)
 * L (? Route - Charles R. Fenwick Bridge) F junction - C junction (yellow)

 * Probably the best way to refer to the L Route is as the bridge route, since its main feature is the bridge over the Potomac River. As for what H and I were to be, John Cambron has a description of what those were here.  Seems that Columbia Pike was J originally, and when that got cancelled, the J designation got assigned to the line to Springfield (originally H).  Then I was never used.  The Dulles line is to be the N Route.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 06:40, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Ah - thanks. Do you think it would make sense to have separate articles about the routes? Otherwise we have a problem with duplication - which article, Blue or Orange, talks about the details of the Rosslyn-Stadium section? Obviously, as the Red Line is separate from the others, those route sections can redirect to it. Maybe cover Greenbelt and Branch Avenue on Green, Vienna and New Carrollton on Orange, and Addison Road and Franconia-Springfield on Blue, but the Huntington Route doesn't even have a single color. We also get a problem then in that Stadium-Metro Center is covered on the Orange Line article, as is Rosslyn-Vienna, but details of Metro Center-Rosslyn would be on a different article. --SPUI (talk - don't use sorted stub templates! ) 07:03, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Actually let's have this discussion on the WikiProject talk page. --SPUI (talk - don't use sorted stub templates! ) 07:38, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Metrobus
In a word: Great! I love the new Metrobus section. I see that as a strong area for serious expansion, and ultimately forking off to its own article, since it's got a storied history of its own, and was saved from extinction during Dick White's tenure as general manager.

Thought I'd throw that out there. SchuminWeb (Talk) 02:58, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Agree with quailty of the bus section. Personaly i think we ought to be proactive now, and fork the section off into its own article. The term Washington Metro is more assoicated with the rail system rather then with the bus (Metrobus). Considering that we aslo have a seperate article on the WMATA, i think it would be a good idea. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 07:05, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Forked. Metrobus is now located at Metrobus (Washington, D.C.).  SchuminWeb (Talk) 11:18, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm fine with forking into a separate article. However, I think there should still be a brief paragraph here about Metrobus... maybe as a section between "Metrorail network" and "Intermodal transportation". Metrobus is a super important way that many people get to metro rail stations, moreso than all the other intermodal forms of transportation. -Aude ( talk | contribs ) 12:52, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

 * A seperate Metrobus article is a good idea, but then shouldn't this article be called "Metrorail"? "Washington Metro" is a overarching term for the whole transportation network: bus & subway (& presumably light rail when that happens). It's basically synonymous with Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority which already has its own article. --[[Image:Flag of Washington, D.C..svg|30px]] D.M. (talk) 19:11, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I believe the justification for making Washington Metro about the rail system is that the term "Metro" in Washington usually refers to the rail system exclusively. I also see the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority article as more related to the "back end" organization.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 00:30, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I've lived in D.C. for 20 years. "The Metro" usually refers to the subway, but "Metro" by itself - ie, "I got here with Metro" or "I took Metro to a friend's house" can mean the bus system, the subway system, or any combination thereof. In Montgomery County, it also refers to the Ride On system. --Nugneant 01:30, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Agreed - I believe something under "Intermodal transport" would be a wise idea, with a "Main article" template in there. SchuminWeb (Talk) 00:30, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I added a bit about Metrobus back into the main article from the Metrobus article into Intermodal transport". I also slightly restructured that section.  Comments...  SchuminWeb (Talk) 00:41, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Sounds and looks a good to me, as of now. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 07:25, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Transit Police section reduced to section stub
I've cut the section on Metro Transit Police down to a stub tag because the text was a copyright violation, lifted directly from http://www.wmata.com/about/mtpd.cfm. I do think more discussion in the article on Metro Transit Police would be worthwhile, but we of do of course need to write our own text for it. SchuminWeb (Talk) 01:01, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Just added a Transit Police addition to the article. I will work on wikifying and expanding it.--Brian H 23:40, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

System infobox suggestion
I just created a new infobox Template:Infobox Public transit for the St. Louis Metrolink page that I believe is better suited to describing public transit systems than the currently used Template:Infobox SG rail infobox and I thought that it would be a useful addition here. I would appreciate any comments regarding my new template. --Millbrooky 22:05, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I think it looks nice, if no one has any problems with it, i might just add it to the article over the weekend, need to find a good metro logo though. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 08:20, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Merge
The article on the 1996 Gaithersburg Metrorail Accident should be merged into this one. It meets the suggested guidelines given in Merging and moving pages. The accident is already commented on in the Washington Metro article. If there is a desire to expand the entry on the accident then the accident article should be merged in. If not, then the accident article should be deleted entirely. There is very little room, if any, for expansion on the accident article. --Strothra 23:09, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. Two short paragraphs hardly warrants a full article.  Should be easy enough to merge in.  Now, I could see consolidating this, the Woodley Park crash, and some of the yard incidents into a general Washington Metro accidents article. --StuffOfInterest 00:00, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The base for such an article would be the NTSB report that describes the accident in detail and analyzes possible causation. This is available online at the NTSB's Web site in PDF form, and I have a copy of it.  That was my thought for the article, but I've not had the chance to do it.  Ah, well.  We can always fork it out again later.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 00:48, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * It would be more efficient to simply put a link to the NTSB report into the Washington Metro article as a citation for a brief paragraph on the accident. It is not an event which merits substantial attention.  --Strothra 15:23, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Public Restrooms?
Perhaps we can start a category listing the location and status of public restrooms along the Metro. I know there's one at Metro Center, for example, but I'd like to know if anyone else has found some somewhere else.
 * Every station has restrooms, but they are behind a locked door. Station managers are supposed to let you use them if you ask, but not all will do that.  There are some exceptions to this, as restrooms are not available at Pentagon, Vienna, Addison Road, and I think a couple of others.  Then there's the automatic toilet by Exeloo at Huntington, which is discussed at Huntington (Washington Metro).  Is discussion of Metro's restroom policy worthwhile in the article?  Possibly, as it has been in the news before.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 18:37, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the general answer is "no". There are no public restrooms in stations.  They are employee restrooms, and if you ask they will most likely say no . They may make exceptions to the policy for those with small children, are elderly, or disabled . -Aude ( talk | contribs ) 19:27, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and added mention of this policy to the "Rules and regulations" section. -Aude ( talk | contribs ) 19:49, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually that is wrong-take a visit to the Metro Center Station, go to the red line-level exit without the ticket booth (I forget which side it is, but probably the Shady Grove-bound side), and behind the 'Fire Equipment' door on the left there are two doors, one labled 'Employee Restrooms', which is locked, and one labled 'Customer Restrooms'. It is outside the gates, and you have to ask an employee to let you out, but it is clearly labled for customers and the door isn't locked. -rmeskill ( talk | contribs ) 10:10, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Minor change to Signaling and operation
I change the running voltage from 700 volts to 750 volts. The warning label above the third rail reads: "750 volts." WMATA's website says that 750 volts of power is in the third rail. Also, the article third_rail also mentions a 750 volt power rail. I hope nobody minds the change. I can help clean up the rest of the article when I have time. Keep up the good work everyone! --Starionwolf 22:58, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the change. Didn't realize that it was incorrect on the article.  But 750 is indeed correct.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 21:51, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Parking overnight?
Does anyone know if you can park overnight at a parking lot? If the gates are open in the morning, it seems reasonable to presume that you could stay there all night, but WMATA thinks differently. I called them and they said that you were not allowed, but does anyone know if this is enforced. I'm specifically interested in Vienna or W Falls Church. --Rmeskill 19:28, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

 * As of right now, the gates at Vienna close at 10:30 AM, and reopen at 11:00 PM. Signage in Vienna's North Garage indicates that parking is limited to 24 hours.  You get towed for parking at the wrong time, however, that's your problem.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 05:59, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Ridership Numbers
I think it is noteworthy to point out the relative ranking of certain days in 2006 in comparison to the days mentioned for high ridership in the article. http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2006-04-23-lede-mass-transit-usat_x.htm JVittes 17:40, 03 May 2006 (EDT)

After thinking about it, it may be better to wait until the April numbers are released, that way the article may not have to be rewritten much. JVittes 15:23, 06 May 2006 (EDT)

Both articles: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/09/AR2006050901738.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/10/AR2006051002235_2.html Mention April's average weekday daily ridership was 739,525, which is higher than March at 719,861 riders per weekday. JVittes 17:52, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Could you please cite your sources in the article? I noticed the same number in one of those articles and was trying to see if there was an official press release with the same numbers (I was just looking for general ridership information). The USA Today remark needs citation too. 192.52.57.33 22:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

 * The site http://www.wmata.com/riding/viewReportList_update.cfm gives links to the day data for an entire month, the press release giving the numbers for March gives the weekday numbers too. I rounded each weekday in April to a multiple of 1000 and then took the average and it was close enough to the WP number that I figured not to question it any further. I also looked at the data for the last year to see if I was wrong about the weekday data. I'm have not the slightest idea how one makes a citation, as I don't remember ever reading about it, though I may have, I'll look it up, and list the sites. JVittes 19:28, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I found an official WMATA press release giving the ridership for "a typical weekday" and added that info to the top section of the article. 192.52.57.33 22:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I just noticed that based on the site http://www.wmata.com/riding/viewReportList_update.cfm, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday of this week would make the 6th, 9th, and 8th highest ridership days, repectively, in Metro history. Metro has yet to make a press release about the last two of these days. I wonder what happened to cause this upsurge this last week? No doubt Metro would list Nationals games as part of the reason (although the Rockies swept the Nationals, something I doubt many fans were eager to go to the stadium for). What other reasons are there, though? Any major events this last week?

Recent high ridership days (in the last 3 months): 2nd April 10th with 821,238; 4th March 31st with 808,108; 6th June 13th with 786,843; 7th April 20th with 780,820; 8th June 15th with 777,287; 9th June 14th with 774,802; 10th June 8th with 774,255; 13th April 18th with 765,516; 15th June 7th with 764,511; and 17th April 11th with 763,351. Of the top 10 ridership days for Metro, only 3 (Reagan's funeral procession, the Million Man March, and Clinton's first inauguration) did not occur in during the last 3 months! Mecaterpillar 01:17, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Metro just released a new press release saying as much http://www.wmata.com/about/met_news/story.cfm?ID=729. --JVittes 05:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

 * New press release concerning last week: http://www.wmata.com/about/met_news/PressReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=1265. Friday set the record for 7th highest day therby pushing all subsequent numbers down 1. -- Mecaterpillar 16:23, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Wednesday moved into 10th position at 769,641 riders. On July 8th we should have one year of data so new averages can be posted, since weather and holidays, and vacations affect ridership it is best to pick an entire year to average it out. The good thing is that saying 7 out of the 10 highest ridership days would probably stay true for a long time, since 6 more days above 804k would be needed otherwise, though June has 22 workdays so that might bring in a new record for ridership. --JVittes 21:21, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I didn't notice Friday was not in your list, Wednesday is 11th position. --JVittes 15:08, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

 * No, that would make it the 12th highest day. Notice that 10th up there is June 8th with 774,255 trips.  June 8th is now the 11th highest ridership day. Mecaterpillar 22:26, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

 * You're right, I guess I wasn't paying much attention, regardless one thing that needs to be thought about is that if ridership increases become consistent we may end up having to change the page too often just to keep up, I think as it is now it is not a problem as the numbers would probably only need to be checked monthly, but explicitly saying the rankings of the days or listing the top 20 might be more of an issue. --JVittes 05:39, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I was thinking of just listing X of top 10 or Y of top 15 (only 10 or 15 days appear on WMATA press releases) and which could be easily ascertained from looking at 1 or 2 WMATA press releases or news articles. (i.e. using at most 2 sources limited to press releases and news articles).  I think any more information than there is right now is unnecessary.  I think the general point (record breaking ridership on those 3 recent months) come across just fine as it is.  Mecaterpillar 07:25, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

According to one of the latest releases the ridership for FY 2006 is over 200 million, making the average daily ridership just shy of 550000, 549799.315 to be exact. Though average weekday ridership is much higher, and Sunday and Saturday have much lower ridership, once a better indicator is given (I don't trust that it includes all of FY 2006, I think it is missing Friday) I'll update the infobox and intro. --JVittes 06:58, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Metro's Zero Tolerance eating policy
As ridiculous as Wikipedia edit wars are, it is pretty much "common knowledge" for any Metro rider that Metro received a LOT of bad word-of-mouth over the 12 year old girl's arrest. However, I can't well cite a source when that source is literally a two minute conversation, on the system, along the lines of "can you BELIEVE what Metro did?" "Hah... next thing you know they'll be locking up four year olds for temper tantrums".

Rather than the old edit, which was "supporters argue blahblah (link to some third rate C.J. Studies paper) - detractors conuter-argue with (bla bla bla)", how about leave off the supporters AND detractors comments, and let the facts stand for what they are?

Thanks - --Nugneant 16:35, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I just removed the "supporters argue", as it is a substantiated, verifiable fact (not POV opinion) with proper citation. The point about the detractors can also be included if proper citation is found.  I don't think it should be too hard to find something, given the amount that is written about Metro in the local newspapers. -Aude ( talk | contribs ) 17:07, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I am not sure that one paper means something is "fact". If so then orgone accumulators would be "fact". --Nugneant 01:40, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The issue is already discussed anyway, the addition of pov opinion to end it is unnecessary. Nugneant, if you have such distane for metro, as you stated on my talk page, how about you refrain from editing the article, as you stated you don't want an edit war. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 03:27, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
 * A bloo bloo bloo. Learn to read. --Nugneant 01:40, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I do know, thats why i removed your edits. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 05:49, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Difference between WMATA and Metro
is there a difference? For example, it says that Metrobus is operated by Metro. Isn't it operated by WMATA? -- Awiseman 20:34, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Where does it say that? I see it saying "The Metrorail (subway) system, as well as Metrobus (bus) services, are owned and operated by the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority (WMATA)". --Golbez 21:51, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Here is it, under the Metrobus section: "Metrobus is a bus service operated by Metro, consisting of 182 bus lines serving 12,435 stops, including 2,038 bus shelters and nearly every Metrorail station." --Awiseman 20:25, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Precisely. Basically, "WMATA" and "Metro" are synonymous when "Metro" is used to refer to the organization as a whole.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 03:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Without looking at the article, I can see where the confusion comes, as "Metro" is used to refer to the rail system exclusively, as well as the organization as a whole, e.g. "Take Metro to New Carrollton," and "Metro officials announced a fare hike," are both common uses. SchuminWeb (Talk) 04:10, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

The Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority (WMATA) is a quasi-governmental agency created by the WMATA Compact. It provides a Transit Service known as "Metro." Metro provides two services: "Metrorail" and Metrobus" (one word) Metro also provides a contract service for the disabled known as "MetroAccess." WMATA, Metro, Metrorail and Metrobus are one organization. Metro Access is paid for by Metro, but is contracted to a third party.--Brian H 18:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Newspaper Article Citation Format
I think we should have just one citation format for newspaper articles. I've noticed that the date format varies, as does whether the author, the page number, and the date the webpage was access are included. I personally think the author and the page number should be included if known. I don't think the date accessed should be put since the articles that were published in the paper are unlikely to change at all (although if they are very recent they could be subject to revisions, I suppose). I don't have a preference on the date format. At this time I'm going to pick one format and change all citations of nespaper articles to match it (I'm going with Day 3-letter-month Year format for now). Mecaterpillar 21:00, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Being that this is a US based topic is should probably use the standard US date format (Mmm dd, yyyy). That is how you will usually see the date formatted in the newspaper article. --StuffOfInterest 22:43, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Interestingly, Template:Cite news states the following: "ISO 8601 YYYY-MM-DD format recommended. May be wikilinked to enable date user preferences." I personally just went with the style for dates used in the MLA format.  As I stated, I personally have no preference, so if somebody wishes to go and change them all, they're welcome to do it (though you may want to say here that you'll do it). Mecaterpillar 00:09, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

tagging
See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Washington Metro for discussion. SchuminWeb (Talk) 05:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Featured-article quality
What do you all think would be required to bring this article up to FA quality (not necessarily FA status though)? I know there have been some small things that have needed fixing (e.g. lack of citations, spelling, grammar, etc.) and fixing these still needs to continue, but what about in terms of content? What's lacking here and what should be removed and or condensed? I think this article is close enough to FA quality that it be worth putting the effort to improve it. Mecaterpillar 16:41, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, I for one would shorten the "Metrorail Network" section considerably, cutting it entirely below a certain point, starting with "Smithsonian station lies under the National Mall and is the busiest station for tourists." and going to the bottom of the section ("See also: List of Washington Metro stations." would be kept). My question becomes twofold: Who wants to read all that, and also, why keep it here when we have articles about the individual stations, where we discuss the neighborhoods, and where many have "Notable places nearby" sections.

 * I agree with shortening the Metrorail network section considerably.

 * For example the summaries for the line colors can be reduced considerably if not eliminated and replaced with a format presented for the london underground (a featured article) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_underground#Lines if someone wanted to research more on each line, they can click on its link and go to its respective page. The thing I would change from the london format is instead of showing section and date openings, replace that with the name the end stations.  For example:

 * (Example only, change the format to whatever fits) -Limitedexpresstrain 08:52, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I think that's a good idea. There's also a similar table in the Paris Metro article. Mecaterpillar 18:21, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Here's a suggestion I just came up with based on a mix of the tables found in the Paris Metro article and Barcelona Metro article as well as the limitations of what info can be found here on wikipedia:

 * I think the opening and extention dates should be removed, as its not as important as the line color, length, and end stations (of course the dates are exellent info for the individual line pages). Also it doesn't account for fill in stations such as New York Avenue on the red line, so it makes it appearlike the Red Line hasn't been upgraded since 1998.  I think color/name, length, number of stations and end stations (termini) should be on the list minus the dates.  Just my opinion though.  Limitedexpresstrain 06:33, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Looking at the Paris Metro, RER, Barcelona Metro, London Underground articles, all of which have such tables, the tables all have the opening date on them. In the case of the Washington Metro, 4 of the lines opened at about the same time, so this information may not be as interesting.  There are also fewer lines here than in those articles (except for the RER article.  Personally, I think I'd prefer keeping the years in there simply because it is still informative (even if not as important as the rest), and is taking up space that would otherwise be white space on either side of the table.  As the table only has 5 columns now, I don't think it would look cluttered either.  For comparison, here's the table without the years:

 * I'd say that currently my preference would be for the first table I created but without the word "(Planned)" in the dates for the silver line (it makes those columns narrower). Mecaterpillar 07:11, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * How about keeping the opening dates (with silver planned) and instead of last exended (not really as important though important in its respective line page) and instead include Length of the line?  So line opening date, and length. Limitedexpresstrain 14:27, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I'd actually prefer to have the length on there, but I haven't found that information. If someone could find that information, then I'll certainly make a table like that. Mecaterpillar 19:13, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

 * I also see "Intermodal transport" as one that could be reworked. In that case, we should combine it with Category:Transportation in Washington, D.C., which could use a parent article.  One with the title of Transportation in Washington, D.C. would be just right, serving as a tie-together for all of these topics with plenty of  tags throughout.  I still don't see the relevance of a number of the sections in our "Intermodal transport" section, aside from that they dump passengers at or near Metro stations.

 * All in all, let me know what you think. SchuminWeb (Talk) 00:30, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

 * There does seem to be more information in the "Metrorail Network" section than there ought to be and most of it does appear in the station information. One thing though is that the summary of the colleges and university accessible from Metro does not appear elsewhere.  I don't know if that's something that should be placed somewhere though.

 * The "Intermodal transport" section appears to be just for mentioning where Metro links up to other modes of transportation. I don't know exactly how it should be re-worked.  I could see the point of mentioning that one could access these other modes of transportation via Metro.  I think, though, that it is important to mention Reagan Airport and Union Station as well as the fact that one can transfer to VRE and MARC at a number of stations.  I can also see the point of mentioning the carsharing services.  However, I would imagine that all that could fit in a 5 to 7 sentence paragraph, leaving the rest of the information for another article.

 * I would say that an article with the title Transportation in Washington, D.C. would need to cover transit, streets and highways, airports, and intercity rail and bus, etc. Essentially it should be a longer version of what should appear in "Transportation" section of the Washington, D.C. article (that section actually needs to be rewritten somewhat, BTW).  The streets and highways are currently covered in the Streets and highways of Washington, D.C. article.  So I would say that a Transportation in Washington, D.C. article should summarize what appears in Streets and highways of Washington, D.C. in one section then cover what appears in the "Transportation" of the Washington, D.C. (in more detail and divided into other sections) and this "Intermodal transport" section as well.  There are other things that such an article should cover as well, but I wouldn't go into discussing that until that article exist and I can comment on its talk page. Mecaterpillar 21:16, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

 * You said: "There are other things that such an article should cover as well, but I wouldn't go into discussing that until that article exist and I can comment on its talk page."

 * I say: Out with it! Please share!  I'm currently trying to figure out if such an article would be worthwhile to create, and I'm getting the feeling that it is worth creating, but still need to figure out what it should look like.  We can always reference this discussion later on from another talk page, or move it entirely.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 13:47, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, one thing I was thinking was related to the intermodal transport was how some of the stations are easy access from interstates (Vienna, Shady Grove, Greenbelt, New Carrollton, Pentagon and to some extent Franconia-Springfield (as well as Eisenhower Ave in the future)). More importantly I was thinking there should be mention of the HOV lanes (which exist on I-95/395, I-66, Dulles Toll Road, I-270, and US-50) and slugging.  Possibly with mention of future HOT lanes.  I figure the HOV lanes make up an important part of the commute for many people (at least they do in the I-95 corridor in Virginia).  I don't remember if there was anything else I was thinking of here. Mecaterpillar 19:13, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

My summaryless edit
Accidentally hit enter before I could enter a summary... just so you know, I changed it to "use" because "to go to to" just sounded really weird. SchuminWeb (Talk) 04:24, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I was thinking about that before and somehow changing "to go to to" to "to use to" didn't come to mind. I guess "to go through to" would have worked too.  I simply noticed that "to go to", which was what it was change to before I edited it, didn't work.  Thanks for the rewording.  Mecaterpillar 05:17, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

New WMATA Facts page
I was just looking to see if I could cite this source for some of the Trivia info that is not sourced (I thought it was before, though), and I saw that the PDF is different than before. That means it's time to change some of the information on this page to match (such as the annual ridership). I'll try to update some things and hope not to miss anything. Mecaterpillar 17:51, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

 * It appears that WMATA shortened this PDF in addition to updating the numbers. This appears to have left some of the information on this page without a source.  It also gives a shorter length for the escalator in Wheaton (to 508 feet, I haven't changed the article since I doubt the escalator was shorterned) and reduces the number of elevators in stations.  Could someone please check what the length of that escalor is?  And could someone also look for sources for the rest of this info?  I could not find a link to the old document or determine if it's still up somewhere. Mecaterpillar 18:15, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to archive the talk page
Unless anyone has any strong objections, I'm going to go ahead and archive this talk page and start a fresh one. SchuminWeb (Talk) 06:35, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

title: Talk:Washington Metro/Archive 1


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stalling

Stalling was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was 75% vote for delete, but article now a harmless redirect. Cool Hand Luke  20:13, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Listed on cleanup since 2 Aug. Dic def/substub. --Jiang 22:27, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * "In Wikipedia, being listed on Clean Up." "In the NFL, a linebacker."  Delete: dictdef. Geogre 01:42, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * D "In hacker sub-culture, losing one's sanity in a way similar to RMS." Chris 02:14, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * delete I just moved it to Wiktionary. There may be enough to make this encyclopedic, but someone can recreate the page when they do.  Till then, Wiktionary is the right place. JesseW 04:09, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep, redirect to the aviation sense. Mark Richards 18:13, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like other '/delete' pages is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
William Poole

William Poole (July 24, 1821 – March 8, 1855), also known as Bill the Butcher, was the leader of the Washington Street Gang, which later became known as the Bowery Boys gang. He was a local leader of the Know Nothing political movement in mid-19th-century New York City.

Early life
Poole was born in Sussex County, New Jersey, to parents of English descent. In 1832, his family moved to New York City to open a butcher shop in Washington Market, Manhattan. Poole became skilled in his father's trade and eventually took over the family store. In the 1840s, he worked with the Howard (Red Rover) Volunteer Fire Engine Company #34, on Hudson and Christopher Streets, and started the Washington Street Gang which later became the Bowery Boys. During this period in New York, fires were a problem for the city. Volunteer fire groups, such as the one Poole was in were important for keeping fires under control. These firefighting groups were closely tied with street gangs, and were seen as a public service provided by those groups. Throughout the years there was an ongoing rivalry between gangs over who would be the one to extinguish the fire. There began a common strategy that the Bowery Boys utilized to ensure that other fire engine companies could not put out the fires. Upon hearing the alarm sound indicating that a fire had broken out, a member of the Bowery Boys would find the nearest fire hydrant. He would then proceed to flip over an empty barrel upon the hydrant so it could not be seen or used. The Bowery Boys would sit on the barrel until his own fire engine arrived. Fights over the hydrants would break out, and often the Bowery Boys had no time to actually extinguish the fire.

Personality
William Poole was a large man for the time. He weighed over two hundred pounds and was about six feet tall. He was known for his brutal boxing style: "He was well known as being a notoriously dirty fighter, not averse to biting off noses, gouging out eyeballs, or beating a man to jelly." He fought in many fights that were considered illegal due to the brutality of bare-knuckle boxing. He was also a known skilled knife fighter, as a result of his profession as a butcher. Poole was a known gambler and a heavy drinker. He closed his family's butchery business in the 1850s and opened a drinking saloon, known as the "Bank Exchange".

Street gangs
Street gangs in New York were fluid in their membership and name as they merged and found new leaders. The most well-known of these was the Bowery Boys, which Poole formed from his own Washington Street gang and a collection of many other street gangs. Other key gangs incorporated into the Bowery Boys were the American Guards, Atlantic Guards, True Blue Americans, and the Order of the Star-Spangled Guard. These gangs were composed of nativist White Anglo-Saxon Protestants who were opposed to enfranchisement of the growing number of Irish Catholic refugees from the Great Famine. Street gangs, like the Bowery Boys, "were bound by ethnic ties or nativist belief; the members tended to be deeply patriotic, and a common thread was the belief that the country was pretty well full, so that newcomers were not welcomed." Poole's gang was located near to the Five Points neighborhood, where many recent Irish Catholic immigrants settled. Five Points was located in what is now Chinatown in Lower Manhattan. Waves of Irish- and German-Americans moved into the Five Points as their first stop on the way to the American dream. In response to attacks by Poole and his followers, the Irish created their own street gangs. The Dead Rabbits were an Irish-membership gang and the biggest rival of Poole's Bowery Boys. Much of the hatred between the two gangs was based on racial and religious differences. "For years the Bowery Boys and the Dead Rabbits waged a bitter feud, and a week seldom passed in which they did not come to blows, either along the Bowery, in the Five Points section." Both gangs were primarily brawlers and street fighters, another reason why William Poole was a well-known fighter, and most of their battling was done in open spaces. Poole made many alliances with other street gangs that supported his ideology.

Political views
William Poole detested the Democratic Party's local political machine, Tammany Hall, because they accepted and included immigrants as members. Tammany Hall-affiliated street gangs also protected Irish Catholics from Poole's Bowery Boys, whom he sent to terrorize immigrants and keep them from registering to vote. Poole and the Bowery Boys were a de facto extension of the Know Nothings, a nativist and militantly anti-Catholic political party. According to the New Orleans True Delta, the purpose of the Know Nothings was "twofold – part religious, part political; and the ends aimed at the disenfranchisement of adopted citizens, and their exclusion from office, and perpetual war upon the Catholic religion." Originally, the Know Nothings were known as the Native American Party, but changed their name in 1855. Members of the Know Nothing Party had to "be a native-born citizen, of native-born parents, and not of the Catholic religion". The goal was to organize native White Anglo-Saxon Protestants to defend and preserve their religion and control of American politics from enfranchised Catholics, Jews, immigrants and their descendants.

Poole was nominated by the Whig party in April 1848 as a candidate for alderman, representing the Sixth Ward. Poole fared poorly in the general election, receiving only 199 votes and tying for last place with his ticket-mate against four other candidates.

In February of 1853, Poole was appointed to represent the Sixth Ward on the New York City Board of Education.

Attack at Florence's Hotel
As a well-known gang leader and pugilist, Poole was frequently involved in fights, brawls, and other confrontations. The New York Daily Times reported the following on October 23, 1851: "A Brutal Outrage in Broadway. We learn that at an early hour yesterday morning, two noted pugilists entered Florence's Hotel, corner of Broadway and Howard street, and without any provocation seized the bar-keeper and beat his face to a jelly. It appears that Thomas Hyer, William Poole, and several others entered the above hotel, and while one of the party held Charles Owens (the bar-keeper) by the hair of his head, another of the gang beat him in the face to such an extent that his left eye was completely ruined and the flesh of his cheek mangled in the most shocking manner. After thus accomplishing the heartless act, all of them made an effort to find Mr. John Florence, the proprietor of the hotel, with a view of serving him in the same manner, but not succeeding in their latter design, they found the hat of Mr. Florence and wantonly cut it into strips, and trampled it under their feet.

The desperadoes then left the house, and in the meantime Mr. Owens was placed under medical attendance, and in the course of a short time he proceeded to the Jefferson Market Police, in company with Mr. Florence, where they made their affidavits respecting the inhuman outrage, upon which Justice Blakeley issued his warrants for Hyer, Poole, and such of the others who were concerned in the affair, and the same were placed in the hands of officer Baldwin for service. Since the above was written we have been reliably informed that the affray originated from the fact of the barkeeper having refused them drinks, after they had been furnished with them twice in succession."

Dispute with John Morrissey
Poole's arch rival John Morrissey was an Irish immigrant and worked for the political machine at Tammany Hall. Morrissey was also a popular bare-knuckle boxer and challenged Poole to a match. Though the two men were of differing ethnic backgrounds and political parties, the initial grounds for their dispute may have arisen from an earlier bet by Poole on a boxing match at Boston Corners on October 12, 1853, in which Poole had placed his bet on Morrissey's opponent, "Yankee Sullivan". The results of the boxing match were disputed—Sullivan beat Morrisey but was then distracted into leaving the ring by Morrisey's friends and the referee announced Morrisey winner for being in the ring—and Poole was against Morrissey being paid. In 1854 a fight was arranged between Morrissey and Poole, which Poole won.

Shooting and death
Morrissey plotted revenge and on February 25, 1855, recently-fired NYPD patrolman Lewis Baker and Jim Turner, who were allegedly acting as enforcers for Morrissey, shot Poole in the leg and chest at Stanwix Hall, a bar on Broadway near Prince, at that time a center of the city's nightlife. The New York Daily Times reported on February 26, 1855, the following:

"Terrible Shooting Affray in Broadway – Bill Poole Fatally Wounded – The Morrissey and Poole Feud – Renewal of Hostilities – Several Persons Severely Wounded. Broadway, in the vicinity of Prince and Houston Streets, was the scene of an exciting shooting affair about 1 o'clock yesterday morning, which is but a repetition of a similar occurrence that transpired a few weeks ago under Wallack's Theatre between Tom Hyer, Lewis Baker, Jim Turner and several other noted pugilists... View Full Article at Wikisource"

Several days after the shooting, on March 8, 1855, Poole died in his home on Christopher Street at the age of 33. Poole was survived by his wife and son, Charles Poole. The war between Poole and Morrissey had been very public and The New York Times covered the events of Stanwix Hall almost every day for a month. One local newsman reported Poole's last words were, "Good-bye, boys; I die a true American," although the New York Evening Post, quoting an unnamed man who was at Poole's bedside when he died, reported that his last words named Morrissey as his killer. He was buried on March 11, 1855, in Brooklyn's Green-Wood Cemetery with thousands of spectators.

Lewis Baker fled New York City, with the help of Daniel Kerrigan, a twenty-four year old 1853 Democratic nominee for councilman. Kerrigan was an Irish-American and expressed sympathy for Baker. The Times called Kerrigan "one 'of the principle accessories to the murder of Poole and the flight of Baker." Facing an international manhunt organized by Poole's patrons in the Know Nothing Party, Baker boarded the Jewett and sailed for the Canary Islands. He was intercepted, however, on the high seas on April 17, 1855. Baker was arrested and returned to New York City to be tried for the murder of William Poole. All three trials, however, ended with a hung jury and Baker ultimately walked away a free man. Morrissey went on to open up several Irish pubs and accumulated a fortune of $1.5 million. He later served two terms as a New York state senator and two more terms in the U.S. House of Representatives. Morrissey died in 1878 and lies buried in a Roman Catholic cemetery in his childhood hometown of Troy, New York.

In popular culture
Daniel Day-Lewis played a heavily fictionalized version of Bill the Butcher, renamed William Cutting, in the 2002 Martin Scorsese film Gangs of New York. The chief differences between the historical Poole and the cinematic "Butcher": while Poole died before the Civil War, the fictional character is still alive and leading his street gang in 1862, and he claims his father was killed by the British at the Battle of Lundy's Lane which took place seven years before he was born. Although, he reveals to Leonardo DiCaprio’s character that he is 47 years old, making him born in 1815, unlike the real Butcher, born in 1821. The character is slain in an epic street battle at the end of the film.

Selected coverage in the New York Daily Times

 * New York Daily Times, Volume 1, Number 0031, Thursday, October 23, 1851, page 1 "Boxing"
 * New York Daily Times, Volume 3, Number 0646, Thursday, October 13, 1853, page 1 "hotel"
 * New York Daily Times, Volume 3, Number 0892, July 28, 1854, page 4 "Boxing teaser"
 * New York Daily Times, Volume 3, Number 0892, July 28, 1854, page 8 "Boxing"
 * New York Daily Times, Volume 4, Number 1074, Monday, February 26, 1855, page 1, "Shooting"
 * New York Daily Times, Volume 4, Number 1084, Friday, March 9, 1855, page 1, "Coroner's Inquest"

Selected coverage in the Brooklyn Eagle

 * Brooklyn Eagle, March 20, 1855, page 2, "The Poole murder"
 * Brooklyn Eagle, March 20, 1855, page 3, "The death of bully Poole"
 * Brooklyn Eagle, March 24, 1855, page 3, "Grand jury"

Selected coverage in the New York Times

 * New York Times, March 9, 1855, page 1, "The Pugilist's Encounter"
 * New York Times, March 10, 1855, page 1, "The Death of William Poole"
 * New York Times, March 12, 1855, page 1, "The Stanwix Hall Tragedy"
 * New York Times, March 12, 1855, page 4, "The Funeral of Poole"
 * New York Times, March 13, 1855, page 1, "The Poole Murder"
 * New York Times, March 17, 1855, page 1, "The Poole Murder"
 * New York Times, March 19, 1855, page 1, "The Poole Murder"
 * New York Times, March 24, 1855, page 3, "The Kissane Trial"
 * New York Times, April 16, 1855, page 3, "The Stanwix Hall Tragedy"
 * New York Times, May 16, 1855; page 1, "Baker Arrested!"
 * New York Times, May 17, 1855; page 4, "The Poole Murder—What is to come of it?"
 * New York Times, November 28, 1855, page 7, "The Stanwix Hall Tragedy"
 * New York Times, November 29, 1855, page 3, "The Stanwix Hall Tragedy"
 * New York Times, December 1, 1855, page 2, "The Stanwix Hall Tragedy"
 * New York Times, December 3, 1855, page 2, "The Stanwix Hall Tragedy"
 * New York Times, December 4, 1855, page 7, "The Stanwix Hall Tragedy"
 * New York Times, December 5, 1855, page 3, "The Stanwix Hall Tragedy"
 * New York Times, December 6, 1855, page 2, "The Stanwix Hall Tragedy"
 * New York Times, December 7, 1855, page 3, "The Stanwix Hall Tragedy"
 * New York Times, December 8, 1855, page 3, "The Stanwix Hall Tragedy"
 * New York Times, December 10, 1855, page 2, "The Stanwix Hall Tragedy"
 * New York Times, December 11, 1855, page 2, "The Stanwix Hall Tragedy"
 * New York Times, December 12, 1855, page 3, "The Stanwix Hall Tragedy"
 * New York Times, December 13, 1855, page 7, "The Stanwix Hall Tragedy"
 * New York Times, December 14, 1855, page 1, "The Stanwix Hall Tragedy"

title: William Poole


text:
Talk:Artie Lange

did you know a guy named Jeff Hagmeyer in Port Clinton, Pennsylvania? I'm with him right now

The End?
There is no verification that Artie is dead, that section should probably be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SydneyH (talk • contribs) 00:12, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

y do peeople kept saying artie is dead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.7.248.76 (talk) 16:00, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Artie's arrests
Shouldn't there be a section on all the times Artie's been arrested for crimes?
 * If you can provide sources, sure. Don the Dev 04:48, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Why? Artie Lange is a minor celebrity. If not for his time at the Howard Stern show, his Wiki page would be an appropriate length. It's too long and full of information that isn't particular noteworthy as it is. Cg2112 (talk) 01:28, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Artie's departure
Somehow the person who removed my post, allowed other speculation to remain as to how he might leave the sho. People can leave a job either from dying or going to another job. And Fat comedians are well known to leave gigs through their demise. Any comments about his possible departure are speculation until he leaves arent they? The cast members were the ones speculation about his death, not me. Doug rosenberg 17:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * So remove the other speculation, this is an encyclopedia not an Artie Lange fan page. LilDice 17:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I do think it's a valid topic. My edits are just as valid and have as much sourcing as anything else in the section. If you want to remove the whole section, I'll abide by that but don't single out my edits for no reason other than you don't like them. Doug rosenberg 17:51, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * What sourcing? You didn't cite anything. This same problem occurs on many of the Stern pages, people feel the need to add every little thing that happens on the show. This is the Biography of Artie Lange, the fact that he missed a day of work in March 2007 and there was speculation that he was on heroin is not notable. If you want to make a list of every thing that is said about Artie on the show go do it on your own webpage, no one is stopping you. LilDice 17:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Problem solved removed the section, was nothing but rumor. LilDice 18:02, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I was the one who first put a paragraph detailing Artie's possible departure from the show. Why would you remove the paragraph? The speculation isn't exclusively based on the fact that Artie missed "one day of work in March 2007". Artie's possible departure and him being burnt out with the show is discussed almost daily on the show. It's not detailing "every little thing that happens on the show." Talks about Artie leaving is certainly not a little detail. Tofilmfan 10:20, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It's still just speculation on the show if another news outlet picks it up that's a different story. Read that whole section again though, it was all 'many people think', there has been 'much speculation', 'possibly leaving the show'. Those are all weasel words that don't make for a good encyclopedia article. In the grand scheme of things it's notable on the same scale as major changes in his career. LilDice 12:15, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Encyclopedic content
Just read through the article, and in general find it very informative and encyclopedic. The bit that stands out, though is the part in the "Personal Life" section about the orgy... I guess it seems trivial and doesn't belong in an article like this. What do others think? -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 15:47, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Agree with above criticisms
I think this entire entry needs to be rewritten. If you read other bios of MADtv alumni, they're pretty cut-and-dried. Then you come to the Artie Lange bio, and it reads like a supermarket tabloid. Some of the information about Lange's drug use is relevant to his career (e.g., snorting cocaine in full pig make-up, passing out and defecating in bed). Most other info about his drug use and sex life is irrelevant to an encyclopedia article.

I edited other bios of the first-season cast of MADtv and came to the Lange bio last. I read it, heaved a big sigh, and realized what a daunting project Wikipedia can be. I just wish people would read the wiki manual of style, avoid linking every other goddam word fer chrissakes, and grasp the notion that this is an encyclopedia, not a gossip rag or fan magazine or promotional website.

When you're writing for Wikipedia, keep in mind the catchphrase from Dragnet: "Just the facts, ma'am." Kinkyturnip (talk) 03:37, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Kevin Borque?
I'm pretty sure, but not sure enough to edit, that the reference to Kevin Borque is inaccurate. There is a mention of a Kevin Borque in the Fred Norris Wiki as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.225.141.105 (talk) 15:12, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 14:52, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Artie's weight
Artie's gained a lot of weight since the lead photo was taken. Does anyone have a recent photo that won't violate copyright? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.19.101.108 (talk) 08:05, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Can we add a "weightography," similar to his filmography, a timetable of all the times that Artie has been weighed on the air so we can graph it?Simon (talk) 01:55, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Warning: Lobbyists Berman and Company at work
This article has been edited anonymously by Berman and Company, who are lobbyists for amongst others the American Beverage Institute, the Center for Consumer Freedom, the Center for Union Facts and the Employment Policies Institute.

IP address of 66.208.14.242 traces to Berman and Company, see the Whois report. I Spy With My Big Eye (talk) 10:46, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism
There's a new section called "The End" which is clearly vandalism, but which I can't remove because the article is locked. Y'all might wanna look into that. 70.179.140.34 (talk) 00:06, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

This "article" is a train wreck
I came across this article doing some research for a friend. 99% of the content reads like a gossip rag and many of the citations are dubious at best with several simply looping back to the article itself? The overall format of this piece makes it look like something a high school student wrote. The Filmography section needs the "Notes" section deleted or replaced with links to factual articles about the films or anything else not so blatantly vague and subjective. Please see the spelling correction I just made. I find it very difficult to believe that someone mistakenly used the word "writhe" instead of "rid" and the anonymous IP behind it are further indication all that info should probably just be deleted but I don't know the subject of the article well enough to make that determination. Given the extremely controversial nature of the subject and his audience, I'd like to suggest a total lock on the article followed by a thoughtful and investigative rewrite. Otherwise I think Wikipedia is again begging for a lawsuit from a living person having false and defamatory information posted about them. Why are there no admins paying any attention to this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by LactoseIntolerant (talk • contribs) 15:36, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It needs a tag for editors to find it. Doing that now.  Henrymrx (t·c) 06:21, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Article should be locked, death is unsourced
The article should be locked until there is real confirmation that he is dead, to keep people from adding it in constantly. I think that if his death happened, there would be a real reference besides the homestarrunner.com some tool added. If he died, it would be on many reputable websites so a real reference would be very easy to get. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.192.64.220 (talk) 09:53, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * We've already semi-protected the article--and, though it's not a perfect solution, it does tend to limit the amount of mischief that can be created (by forbidding new users from editing the article). I'll continue to keep an eye on it, as I have nothing better to do.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 20:44, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Inclusion of details of Artie Lange's attempted suicide, before official confirmation, is inappropriate
I don't feel remotely comfortable about this, the addition of details about Lange's alleged suicide attempt. I fear that editors would get their panties in a bunch if I attempted to remove sourced information, so I would really like to get a second opinion.... here are my issues with the source:  the New York Post is a well-known publication, but it's also a salacious tabloid with a track record of printing vast amounts of harmful and mean-spirited gossip. That's not to say that we should never use the Post as a source, but in this case it seems hopelessly shady... if you read the article, it uses only vague, anonymous sources and doesn't allude to any confirmation from hospital or law enforcement authorities, or from Artie's family or representatives. Most importantly, the anonymously sourced article is the only news source claiming Artie has stabbed himself. All other articles covering the suicide attempt refer to the New York Post as their only reference. Until some independent confirmation of Artie's status can be given, it does not seem appropriate to reprint such sensitive and personal details in a BLP.

NOTE: this post has also been copied to the BLP Noticeboard.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 05:14, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * That's fine. I was the one who initially added the information. On further reflection, I'd prefer to wait for more reliable sources. Thanks for raising the issue, Fat Man. -- Andy Walsh  (talk)  05:43, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * ...and I was reverted with the addition of an additional newspaper source. -- Andy Walsh  (talk)  06:07, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

This has been published by the The Star-Ledger, and confirmed by Hoboken police in the Hudson Reporter and The Jersey Journal. dissolve talk  06:10, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Now it appears that lots of other newspapers have picked up on the story and are using "law enforcement sources," so I suppose that resolves my concern. It's also a huge relief that the brand of cutlery (Wolfgang Puck) has been identified..... weird.  Anyway, poor Artie.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 11:46, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Howard Stern and Robin Quivers have confirmed it to be the truth, too, on th radio show. Undervenued (talk) 13:37, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

 * The stabbed-in-the-gut act was his funniest skit ever! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.168.129.220 (talk) 17:17, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Not dead
I think someone is vandalizing. Artie is shown as dead circa today- not so is it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.67.79.198 (talk) 18:28, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Not yet. But if he keeps up like that, he will end up dead in less than a year or two. Watching/listening to him since some time now, and it's sad he's fallen down like that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.59.122.130 (talk) 03:35, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Former staff member?
The Howard Stern template lists him under "Former staff", but there is nothing in this article about him not returning to the show. This should be made explicit (e.g., "As of April 2011") for those who don't listen to the show. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.82.201.0 (talk) 05:53, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Info on leaving Stern show?? (touched on above)
The article makes it very confusing when/how he left the show. There seems to be a gap in the career timeline. It has something about his return to radio, and it has info about his suicide, but nothing about when/how he left the Howard Stern show finally. Was it due to suicide attempt, or was he away before suicide attempt? Dancindazed (talk) 00:56, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Template:About; R.D. Laing
Why does this article contain an Template:About that mentions R.D. Laing? It seems the template was added on 1 August 2009. I get that R.D. Laing and Artie Lange kind of sound alike, but who would search for Artie Lange after hearing about R.D. Laing? Artie is a pretty rare name, I think. Should we also add the template to Laing's article, to help people looking for Lange? Hm. --82.170.113.123 (talk) 01:55, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Native-American heritage?
The notion that Artie Lange is part Native-American is based on a dubious DNA test that several cast members of Howard Stern's show took in 2003. The results of these sort of 'pop DNA' tests are considered dubious even in 2014; in 2003 they were about as reliable as reading tea leaves. The notion that Artie's German surnamed father could have been half Indian and nobody suspected he was anything other than German in his lifetime strain credulity to the breaking point. The same test determined his full sister to be only 10% Native-American, which further casts doubt on the credibility of the results.CannotFindAName (talk) 21:40, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Artie Lange. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20100211021309/http://www.freep.com:80/article/20100109/ENT07/1090336/1036/ent01/Artie-Lange-out-of-the-hospital to http://www.freep.com/article/20100109/ENT07/1090336/1036/ent01/Artie-Lange-out-of-the-hospital

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 09:03, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

heroin
"after he attempted suicide during a heroin addiction." This is bad grammar, poor usage.. Since I don't know about poor Artie, someone else needs to clarify. I might go with   — Preceding unsigned comment added by Memphisdan (talk • contribs) 16:28, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

nose
Are we just going to ignore that he has a re-constructed (?) nose? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:201:8681:5340:38F2:C53A:9635:4CC2 (talk) 08:13, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

 * I head he donated his nose to the Fund for the Freedom of Palestine. 109.175.105.27 (talk) 18:02, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Doesn't make sense.

It does not make sense to say he did something full time ('comedy') while developing the act. In order to get gigs FULL time (or even part time), you have to already have 'developed' an act. 98.123.126.45 (talk) 23:55, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Artie Lange


text:
Dee Jay

Dee Jay (ディージェイ) is a fictional character in the Street Fighter series. He made his first appearance in the 1993's Super Street Fighter II as one of the four new characters introduced in the game. In the series, he is a Jamaican kickboxer and karateka, as well as a recording artist and breakdancer. He was the only character at the time to be designed by an American. Dee Jay was based on real-life kickboxer Billy Blanks and has received mixed critical reception.

Conception design
Dee Jay was conceived for Super Street Fighter II by American designer James Goddard, and his name was chosen as a variant on Goddard's nickname, DJames. He was the first Street Fighter character to be designed by an American, and only one of only three characters in the series to have been conceived by an American, along with Blade and Captain Sawada. While Super Street Fighter II was going to feature Cammy, T. Hawk, and two brothers who had the same design save for a head swap, Goddard felt that it would be redundant to have another pair of characters with the same fighting style. As a result, Capcom added Dee Jay in place of one of the brothers, while the other evolved into Fei Long.

The character concept came from interpreting kickboxer Billy Blanks from his role in The King of the Kickboxers, but with a more cheerful disposition. Goddard suggested Blanks as an inspiration when the Japanese team asked for more design ideas. Goddard commented that "a really kick-ass black character would be awesome, instead of someone who was more negative, which is what you tended to see from the Japanese back in those days." In spite of the fact that Blanks is a bad guy in the film which he saw him in, The King of the Kickboxers, he states "his build and look, I just thought that it would make a great character—high-flying, crazy kicks... I mean, you have to remember, this was Billy Blanks pre-'Tae Bo.' He was so bad-ass."

Goddard began designing Dee Jay by drawing a sketch of him and sending it to the Japanese team. He sent the film The King of the Kickboxers by copying a VHS tape and sending it through FedEx. He designed him as a "positive, fun character," implementing elements such as him being Jamaican, a "fun-loving guy," and a person who is trying to "jump-start his music career while kicking a lot of ass." While the design on his pants originally said "MANTIS," but was changed to say "MAXIMUM." This was because his sprite facing left was a mirror image of his sprite facing right, and the N and S in "MANTIS" would be reversed on the left sprite. According to Goddard, "we decided that Mantis wasn't going to work down the side of his pants, so we opted for Maximum." Soon after, Dee Jay was adapted into the 1994 Street Fighter film, played by Miguel A. Núñez Jr. with his musical background replaced by computer skills. As one of the only characters to be created by an American designer, Street Fighter co-creator Akira Nishitani commented that he only learned the story behind the character's creation decades after.

Appearances
Dee Jay made his debut in Super Street Fighter II (1993) as one of the four new characters introduced in the game in addition to the original twelve character roster from previous Street Fighter II games. He enters the World Warrior tournament, seeking inspiration to develop a new musical sound. Dee Jay reappears as a playable character in the console versions of Street Fighter Alpha 3 (1998) and in the console version of Street Fighter: The Movie. The game is set before the World Warrior tournament and depicts Dee Jay before he began his professional music career. While he was not included in Street Fighter IV, development of his character for its sequel, Super Street Fighter IV, had commenced during the former game's development. Audio files of the announcer from Street Fighter IV announcing Dee Jay were found amongst the game's audio files. He was revealed along with T. Hawk, who also originated from Super Street Fighter II, and Juri, a character created for Street Fighter IV. In Super Street Fighter II, Dee Jay has a manager named Rick, while in Street Fighter Alpha 3 he has an agent named Bob. Dee Jay returns in Street Fighter 6, where he is now successful musician and part-time actor, as well as being a fan of Manon Legrand and befriend with a fellow music loving fighter, Kimberly Jackson who helped him find a new song.

One of the trailers of Street Fighter X Tekken showed parts of Dee Jay that resembles him. However he did not make it to the final roster. Instead, his appearance served as a swap costume for Hwoarang.

In other media
Dee Jay plays a minor role in Street Fighter II: The Animated Movie. Here, he beats up a few punks causing trouble at a nightclub before being warned by Guile and Chun-Li that he is being monitored by Shadaloo, which he does not believe until Chun-Li destroys one of their cyborgs in front of him. He was voiced by Ginzo Matsuo in Japanese and Beau Billingslea (credited as John Hammond) in English.

In the 1994 live-action film version of Street Fighter, Dee Jay was portrayed by Miguel A. Núñez, Jr. as one of the primary antagonists. He is depicted as a greedy hacker and engineer working for General M. Bison. In the film's climax, Dee Jay flees from Bison's base with a trunk of Bison's money instead of staying to fight, only to find it full of useless "Bison Dollars" that Bison had planned to issue as currency once he took over the world. He is also seen telling Zangief that Bison is the true enemy and had been using them both since his rise to crime power (though he had paid Dee Jay well while paying Zangief nothing). This version of Dee Jay appears in the console version of the Street Fighter: The Movie video game, and serves as the second of the four Grand Masters in the Street Battle mode (along with Zangief, Sagat and Bison).

UDON's line of Street Fighter comics gives Dee Jay a minor role as a brainwashed agent of Shadaloo who breaks into MI5's Delta Red headquarters (along with other Doll agents) and frees a captured Doll agent from their custody. He is captured during the raid and his mind is restored with the help of Delta Red.

Reception
Dee Jay has received mixed reception. Rocky Mountain News described Dee Jay as "a flashy rapper-type, and probably the best of the new four" characters introduced in Super Street Fighter II. Professional Street Fighter player Keith Stuart listed him as his second favourite Street Fighter character and praised his Super Street Fighter II Turbo incarnation, while also praising him for being "a really positive, happy character." IGN UK editor Martin Robinson, in discussing the Dee Jay, T. Hawk, and Juri, stated that "all three of which we've played and all three of which we're already in love with." In discussing Super Street Fighter II, Giant Bomb editor Jeff Gerstmann commented that "I did my best to basically pretend he didn't exist," stating that the "real stars" of the game were Fei-Long and Cammy.

IGN editor Jesse Schedeen criticized his inclusion in the 1994 film, stating that he "seemed included merely for comic relief." However, Games World praised the film for casting Miguel A. Núñez Jr., and also the alterations to his character, adding "going from DJ to computer whizz isn't a bad career move at all". Gavin Jasper of Den of Geek also noted a preference for the direction the film took the character, stating in regards to his in-game storyline "Dee Jay is all about rhythm and that’s about it. Despite being a guy based on dancing, he’s still somehow the most boring guy."

Dee Jay has been examined as a representation of black characters in games. Eurogamer notes that Dee Jay was one of the few black video game characters in the early 1990s, saying "the representation of black characters in the '90s seemed to get worse, with odd creative choices by developers and straight up laughable attempts at diversity, including a personal favourite, Dee Jay." Journalist and game critic Evan Narcisse notes Dee Jay as one of the few black characters in games from this period, as part of "a whole parade of hot-tempered brawn-centric bruisers and slangtastic slicksters have appeared in fighting game series ... all clearly meant to convey a 'hip' urban lifestyle in the broadest of strokes." Bitmob editor Brian Shirk mentions Dee Jay among Street Fighter 's "most offensive stereotypes" reserved for poorer nations that had been colonized, commenting that his appearance "brings to mind the word "savage" that was typical of depictions of black people in early film. Paste described him as "one of the most reviled characters in the series' whole canon. He’s among the least sensitive stereotypes in the Street Fighter II cast", and felt it was a sign of where things were going too far with re-releases, however they later added that due to the lack of usage and limited number of black characters in the series, they'd become more fond of him and ended with "I’ll take what I can get."

title: Dee Jay


text: User talk:67.68.1.153

title: User talk:67.68.1.153