text:
User talk:StanZegel

Title Emperor in Western Europe
Just as a suggestion, why not move the stuff you've added to "Holy Roman Emperor" to Emperor? It seems to me it would fit better there - it's not really about the Holy Roman Emperor. - Nunh-huh 07:09, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Good idea. I'll do it.

Dashes
Ha! I can't type. Thanks for catching that. I also put it on the main page in DYK--great article! :) jengod 18:10, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)

Guy
This discussion has been moved to Talk:Guy Fawkes

On my talk page, you asked about the etymology of "guy". It is definitively sourced to Guy Fawkes in my copy of Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, 1985, p 544. Not that the dictionary is never wrong, but I do consider it a generally credible source. Rossami (talk) 23:08, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Habsburg Spain
Are you aware someone has placed your article Habsburg Spain on Featured article candidates ? It seems it needs one or two minor amendments to bring it to the level required. Regards Giano 19:21, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the alert, but it is not really my article; I have done only minor edits on it. But as one who loves Habsburg history, I'm glad to see that article get more circulation. StanZegel 01:47, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Martin Luther Article
Stan, thanks for wading in here. I'd like to make a few changes in the Indulgence Controversy section as you adjusted it, and I thought I should explain why. First thing: we need to move it more to a neutral point of view. We can say that Luther was upset with the abuses of indulgences, but he spoke out against their abuse rather than condemning them, even as late as 1519. In his visit to Rome, Luther really was not so much upset with the Papacy but at the clergy and residence of Rome. He'd expected more piety from them. We also need to switch the language about abuses so that we indicate that was the way Luther and his friends saw things.

I also want to add why Luther had problems with indulgences in the 1510s. Later he would reject them all as works-righteousness, but at this time, Luther was works-righteous. He saw indulgences as dangerous because people then would not feel the weight of their sins, which they must be truly sorry for, do works of penance to overcome if they were ever to recieve God's forgiveness. It was under the fire of controversy that Luther sought answers from Scriptures and came to reject indulgences and Works-righteousness entirely.

Also, there is some debate over whether or not the theses were actually posted. We take that up in the 95 Theses article. Here we should use more general language, such as "posted" or "published" to avoid coming down on one side of the issue or another.

I'm also a little unsure about how much detail of the finances of the Archbishop's See we want to get into here.

So, what do you think? Bob --CTSWyneken 11:22, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Bob, I agree with you. I would have made more changes than I did, but I too was trying to respect the work of others and tried to fit my additions into theirs instead of doing more revision. For example, folks being "upset", the personal initiative of Charles V, etc. I think you should make the amendments you propose.

 * Stan, I'm glad you are on the same page with me on this. Having a personal investment in the subject, (see CTSWyneken and you'll see why), I've been revising the page from almost worthless a year or so ago to at least tolerable now. Once in awhile, I come back at it with substantial additions. I'm also working the Wikiquote page and a half dozen others. Typically, if there's an out-in-out factual error in a page or NPOV problems, I'll edit without checking with others. In cases like yours, where it is just a matter of what I think does or does not fit or sound right, I go to the user privately.

 * I would like to keep --although I wouldn't fight strongly about it-- the part about the reason why indulgences were being hawked at that time. I think bits of color like those help the reader understand why, not just what, happened. (Henry VIII's serial marriages are seen in a new light once one knows that his first wife had entered menopause: Henry had no legitimate male heir, and didn't want to plunge England into a revival of the War of the Roses that preceeded him for several generations). Along those lines, I have added Albert's family name, Hohenzollern, to the first reference to him, so that an astute reader can realize the early extent of that family's influence. If Albert had not desired to become a Kurfürst, would Luther have ever been provoked into his course of thought?

 * Without the pressure to shut up, likely Luther would have founded his own order... 8-) I have no probs leaving it. It flows, is in logical order and does not do tangents...

 * While you are in there, consider also adding the color about Luther's Tower Experience. The foundations of the tower were recently discovered in Wittenberg.

 * Yes, they have discovered the toliet that was present when Luther lived in the Black Cloister. However, the story about Luther coming to theological insights there has no basis in fact. The word "cloaca" referred to the whole tower in which the toilet was located. Luther's study was in that tower. No one, other that psychologist Erickson actually gives this rumor any creedance.

 * I think of Erickson as just fantasy and imagination, but I believe Bainton refers several times to Luther's chronic constipation. The story seems plausible to me, and it humanizes the intellectual giant that was Luther.
 * When I visited Wittenberg in 1984, I did note with interest the toilet in the base of the tower, off the room with the coin collection. Was I standing at the site of Soli Fidei? I know it is said that Luther's office was in a tower, but towers were often the stairwells, so I was surprised to read that office bit a few years ago when the foundations were discovered. Perhaps the Clo story is anti-Luther propaganda designed to minimize his theology by discrediting its surroundings. I'm disappointed it is in dispute, because I think color adds to much history, but in a work of reference such as this, the knowledge of scholars like you must take precedence, to maintain the credibility of the work.--StanZegel 23:29, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * A point that needs research: the article says Tetzel was selling plenary indulgences; yet the illustration at indulgence shows one, but it is a partial indulgence. Your scholarly resources will enable you to confirm or correct the plenary phrase.

 * It was indeed a plenary indulgence. Perhaps a little note in the photo caption would do to correct the mistaken impression. Tetzel's jingle is also popular: "when a coin in the coffer clings, a soul from purgatory springs.

 * I'm not sure what such a note could say when the document's urtext says "... erlasse Dir alle Strafen auf zehn Tage." Perhaps Tetzel had a variety of Ablasse for sale, at different prices? Some partials, and the upgrades to plenaries?--StanZegel 23:29, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * I would like to also direct your attention to Lutheranism, where I have made a few minor additions. I think the LCMS should be shown to have as Districts what ELCA calls Synods. I didn't make that change because I didn't know what WELS has. Other parts of the article are gibberish, and I cannot make out what the original sense was intended to be.

 * sigh* yet another to fix....

 * As to the actual posting of the theses, I have made some revisions. See what you think.--StanZegel 16:08, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * They look good! Glad to work with you! -- Bob. --CTSWyneken 22:45, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I've looked at your user page and am very impressed that you are taking time to work on Wiki. It is wonderful that someone with your qualifications is willing to do so. Also, after reading the Talk archives on the Luther page, I need to keep in check my own tendency to push "edit this page" without first reading the Talk to see if my intended "correction" hasn't already been hashed out, back-and-forth, by others in the past. In my five dozen trips around the sun, I like to think I've learned the hard way Golden Rule Number Two: "Do Not Overreact" and thus avoid impulsive behavior. I have not yet reached my Hundred Days on Wikipedia, and need to keep that other lesson in mind. Regards, --StanZegel 23:29, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Thanks, Stan. Reply to you on my talk page. --CTSWyneken 12:17, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Law and Gospel on LCMS Page
See the LCMS talk. Thanks! -- Bob --CTSWyneken 02:35, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Bob, I didn't make any edits to Law and Gospel; my work was in Church Structure. I hope you feel that what I did there results in a fair statement of the de facto situation. --StanZegel 04:33, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * I didn't think you did, but I just wanted to warn you what was up. I haven't looked at your structure changes yet, but I'm sure it's a big improvement. -- Bob

john brown
hey, if you have some extra times in the next few days, i'd appreciate it if you could copyedit John Brown (abolitionist) for me. if you can't do it, that's no problem, of course. be well, Kingturtle 06:13, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Sure, I'll do it.--StanZegel 06:22, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Imperial Crypt trees
Very nice work on those trees. Wondering if you could include some info on how you produced them --what software, (free software?) etc. See also Timeline and EasyTimeline for other systems. Sinreg -SV|t 03:41, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Habsburg/Hapsburg
On what basis do you consider Habsburg more correct than Hapsburg? I've seen both about equally, to the best of my recollection (although I've dealt with variants in so many languages that a specifically English-language standard of naming might have escaped my notice). -- Jmabel | Talk 07:03, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
 * Habsburg is the only spelling used by the family itself --the ultimate authority on the matter. It is the only spelling used in official documents. It is what serious scholars use. Only the popular press seems to perpetuate this invented spelling based upon the similarity of the "B" and "P" sounds. --StanZegel 13:24, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
 * However in the case of The Saint the spelling "Hapsburg" is correct. Please go to this site for graphic proof of this. The proper spelling of the book title -- whether correct or not -- is The Saint and the Hapsburg Necklace. If and when anyone bothers to write an article on this particular book, please feel free to add a section on the spelling discrepency. 23skidoo 12:45, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
 * You are right. Thanks for making the correction. --StanZegel 12:53, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
 * No worries. And I wasn't being facetous about the possibility of there being an article as I've noticed a couple of Saint books and films have been written about already. I'm not familiar with this particular volume so I won't be writing one myself, but if I see an article emerge I'll bear this information in mind. Cheers! 23skidoo 13:06, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I just read the talk:Simon Templar and noticed your "revert again" phrase. I'm sorry, I wasn't intending to start an edit war, I was working from a search list and thought I hadn't saved my edit the first time. I should have read looked for a comment on talk first. Regards... --StanZegel 13:13, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Again, no worries! I added a follow-up comment to make it clear (hopefully) that I wasn't intending to say you were wrong re: the spelling, only that the Saint book and presumably the ghost writer were erroneous, but their spelling is on the record for that volume. Cheers! 23skidoo 14:11, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

I happened to come across a link to this old discussion while checking out a "What Links Here" with regards to Simon Templar. You might be interested to know that there is now an article for The Saint and the Hapsburg Necklace, in which I acknowledge that the spelling is not necessarily the correct one. Cheers! 23skidoo 00:39, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

styles
Thanks for the reaction. That is exactly why I think the templates are perfect for this. They can include all different styles such as those you mentioned. I am quietly confident that these will work. Thanks again, User:Jtdirl 20:37, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Imperial Crypt
Hi Stan, thanks for your message. I discovered your family trees just yesterday, they are really awesome! Martg76 12:30, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Teutonic Order
Oh, it can be that it is Grand Master coat of arms. You see, I have made at the begining CoA of dr Bruno Platter (current Grand Master) it was based on this black-white version. I have asked my German friend to ask at order office what colours should I use, so he will check it (now I have a break from Wikipedia till october). This CoA is based on German post mark made on 800 years of Teutonic Order. On that mark there was that CoA and seal and sentence like: "800 Jahre von Deutscher Orden", that post mark had colours, so I had known what colours should I use. That's why I have written that it is order CoA. On their home site is simple logo with black cross on a white field. Oh, it isn't only cardinals hat (cardinal have red hat), here are catholic heraldical templates. -PioM EN DE PL 14:03, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you for that information. It is very interesting. I had not been aware that the hat was used by ranks other than Cardinal. I look forward to seeing more of your excellent work on here!--StanZegel 15:16, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
 * You are welcome. -PioM EN DE PL 20:06, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

going live
Hiya,

The discussion seems to have gone all quiet on the proposed styles solution, though I have tried to get it going again. There is from what was said a clear consensus on using this solution. I'm going to start putting in the papal box to see if it will work. Is that OK with you?

User:Jtdirl 21:58, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm glad you are doing it. Starting with the Popes is a good idea, because it is probably least controversial there, but I hope it quickly spreads to the royal pages where it is sorely needed too. Regards. --StanZegel 22:07, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Friedrich von Sachsen
I did the grammar fixup you asked me to do on the German version of the article, no problem. It was perfectly understandable. Martg76 22:58, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks for cleaning up my accident at that page. I really have no idea how that happened. Martg76 19:41, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Royal Pages
Just noticed your correction of a date in the succession box for Victoria. But should the day and month be included in the box? Our friend Silver horse is adding them. --ClemMcGann 13:55, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't think that the days within the year are needed in the box, but I thought that if they are there they might as well be correct. Silverhorse seems to be charging about wildly, and attempts are being made to rein him in with a RfC, which I support. I think he is at risk of being gelded on Wiki if he does not start to look before he leaps. --StanZegel 14:03, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Then let us remove them. the box is meant to be a summary.
 * Did you see Silverhorse's (or rather an ip sockpuppet) reply to said RfC?--ClemMcGann 15:44, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

(A discussion about use of Surnames in the lead of the article on Victoria of the United Kingdom has been moved to Talk:Victoria of the United Kingdom/Surname.)

History of the Low Countries
Thank you for your encouragement. The idea comes in fact from the French corresponding template. I simply translated it and updated it a bit. If you want to thank me please help me making out of Belgium a featured article. It really needs a native speaker for checking the English and making it more concise. --Vb 10:30, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Lutherans and Protestants
Lutheran theology is quite a bit different than that of most denominations that consider themselves Protestant. For instance, Lutherans have a theology of the Means of Grace, by which we mean that God has chosen to work through His Word and through the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper. We believe that God the Holy Spirit uses God's Word to create faith in the hearts of unbelievers, that He actually saves people through baptism, even babies and that He gives His real body and real blood in, with and under the elements of the Lord's supper. We do not believe in "accepting Jesus as Savior," that salvation is conditional on good behavior, etc. We also believe that it is good to retain the ancient worship orders of the church, and any traditions that support the gospel. That's just for starters. So we don't we too well with Protestants. A similar list can be made for the Catholic, Orthodox, holiness and other Christian traditions. Since we take Luther seriously, it is at best annoying to have our tradition left out of an article on Luther. 8-) Does that help? --CTSWyneken 00:43, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

The Winter Queen
Please take a look at Talk:Elisabeth of Bohemia. Arrigo 15:11, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

WP:LAME
Hi Stan, I noticed you moved the meta-lameness to the beginning of the page. Of course it is right to think that it is the flower of all edit warring. BUT, please think about new readers: they do not yet know the basics of this page. I feel that it is wrong to offer them firstly an example, understanding and appreciating which requires knowledge what are usual lame edit wars and what sort of basic wars are included in the page. THEN, after reading some more usual cases, a new reader can better relate to the meta level. That has been the reason why I placed Maeta in the end. At the start, it spils, and it may be a tad incomprehensible. I wrote at the time "I feel that meta-lameness should be only after there are other, usual examples - I think mostly readers when making this edit". So, could you kindly revert your edit. 217.140.193.123 16:37, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for the welcome
Thank you, Stan, for your welcome. I do not mean to offend. I have a few articles that I have created, and I know that there is a sense of proprietorship. Am I compelled to have a "red" colored signature? I would rather have a different color if I would be permitted. I guess that different colors set one out as an editor or a higher up. I understand that. I love to edit things for "understandibility." Thank you for your cordial welcome. Cordially, David Boisclair drboisclair 05:21, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Save our Infoboxes
Hello, fellow Editor/Scholar Stan, a matter has come up which I believe requires your timely attention: the proposal to remove the biographical infoboxes. You can see in the Martin Luther article that the infobox on the top right is a candidate for deletion. I would ask that you might respond in the debate. I believe that they should be retained; however, you might want them deleted for the reasons that are given there. I think that it is inadvisable to delete them in a wholesale manner. Cordially, drboisclair 21:36, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the notice, David. I have posted my zwei gröschenswert. --StanZegel 05:41, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Politeness
When you are losing an argument, you can always tell the other party "You are in denial, so it's useless to continue the discussion." Or instead of such abuse, you could politely say you're no longer interested.

Would it be accurate to say that as evidence that the "6 June 1942" date format was used in English as early as A.D. 1215, you cited a translation into 20th-century English, of a document written in 1215 in Latin, and that that translation used the "6th day of June 1941" date format rather than the "6 June 1942" date format? Michael Hardy 01:49, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Recent Luther Article Changes
I like what David has added here. I think we have a valuable new ally. Nicht Wahr? Bob --CTSWyneken 12:00, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Ja, es stimmt! Did u receive the e-mail I sent you Sunday? I have something non-Wiki related I'd like to communicate with u about, and I didn't know if that e-mail was working or the appropriate address. --StanZegel  (talk) 05:24, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

paragraph on Luther's marriage and family
Hello, Stan, thought you might want to weigh in on the paragraph I wrote and posted in Talk:Martin Luther. Hope all is well. Our eternal vigilance will prevail over vandals to keep our Rome from being sacked! drboisclair 23:02, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

 * ''David, I think you have distilled the history very well. What do you think about adding just a dash of color, viz:

'' Forstalling any objections from friends against Katharina, Luther acted quickly: on the evening of Tuesday, June 13, 1525, standing outside the church door (as was the custom), Luther was legally married to Katharina, whom he would affectionately call "Katy." ...

The Luthers had three boys and three girls: --StanZegel  (talk) 03:53, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Hans, born June 7, 1526, studied law, became a court advisor, and died in 1575.
 * Elizabeth, born December 10, 1527, prematurely died in August 1528.
 * Magdalena, born May 5, 1529, died in her father's arms September 20, 1542.
 * Martin, Jr., born November 9, 1531, studied theology but never had a regular pastoral call before his death in 1565.
 * Paul, born January 28, 1533, became a physician. He fathered six children before his death in  1593 and the male line of the Luther family continued through him to John Ernest, ending in 1759.
 * Margaretha, born December 17, 1534, married George von Kunheim of that noble, wealthy Prussian family, but died in 1570 at the age of 36. Her descendants have continued to the present time.
 * This is a good idea. I think that we are on the same page as far as militating against sola verba: add some spice in terms of tables, illustrations, graphs, et cetera. I wanted to add information on the family tree, and this emendation does it. drboisclair 10:23, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Where the Luther marriage took place
This topic has been oved to the Martin Luther talk page so that others can participate. --StanZegel  (talk) 00:51, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Watch lists
Stan, I haven't figured out how this works. Any tips? Bob --CTSWyneken 00:45, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Winfield, IL
Dear Stan,

I respect the role you play in regulating Wiki for Chicagoland, and after my perusal of places such as Winfield, Wheaton, West Chicago, Barrington, and others, I can say you do a fine job. However, I have to disagree with your assessment of recent changes made to Winfield as 'blatant commercialism'. While the bit about the schools may have been to change, John's Buffet is by far the oldest and most relevant business in Winfield, trumping the gargantuan Central DuPage Hospital by some 40 years. It is an historical part of the town, and if you have never been, you ought to peek your head in some time. The founder, John Karwoski, basically created Winfield. He built and founded the fire department, was its first chief, built City Hall as his own house, before selling it to the Village when the present building of John's Buffet was constructed in 1947, and basically helped run the town, passing away at 94 years old in the early 80s. If you mention CDH, which is really more relevant for DuPage County than for Winfield, you must mention something that at least Winfield can be proud of, rather than overwhelmed by. If you took a poll of Winfield residents, I claim that would be John's Buffet.

Yours from Sweden,

Jason Francis jjfranci@hotmail.com

Luther and Anti-Semitism
Hi, Stan, I added a little more to the final paragraph in Martin Luther, and I don't know what Bob is going to think when he comes up for air. I must say that I agree with Roland Bainton, but I also agree with the former Lutheran Richard John Neuhaus: that Luther was anti-Judaic rather than anti-Semitic. Perhaps what should be done is get rid of Against the Jews and their Lies while leaving the historical notice that it was mean and ill-tempered. No one knows the vicious blasphemy that prompted Luther's book. I guess Luther over reacted because He was a deeply religious man. The Jews must learn to forgive. There was an interesting play in the 60s called something like The Man in the Glass Booth about the trial of a Holocaust perpetrator. The man was not a Nazi or a Holocaust perpetrator at all: he had one of those concentration camp numbers tatooed on his arm. He was a Jew, who was consumed with his hatred.

I believe that we should keep the title page of Against the Jews and their Lies out of the article. Humus sapiens (humus is decaying animal and vegetable waste is it not?) wants expert views, so I have appended Roland Bainton, a noted Luther scholar. Yours as a frustrated scholar and editor, Dave drboisclair 10:09, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Dave, Wikiquote contains this quote which, if we can put a date on it for context, would illustrate the racial vs religious distinction:
 * "When we are inclined to boast of our position [as Christians] we should remember that we are but Gentiles, while the Jews are of the lineage of Christ. We are aliens and in-laws; they are blood relatives, cousins, and brothers of our Lord. Therefore, if one is to boast of flesh and blood the Jews are actually nearer to Christ than we are." Martin Luther, That Jesus Christ Was Born a Jew, Luther's Works, American Edition (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1962), Volume 45, Page 201.
 * I think, too, that citing its Weimar Ausgabe or other Urtext, not just the English translation collection, would be better, but Bob is the authority on that sort of thing. This page may also be a useful link. I agree that the Jews should learn Christian charity: forgiveness and not consuming hatred. Yes, insults may have been given, injustices may been done, but that happens to everybody. Get over it! Get on with life! Competitive Victimhood is so unbecoming. --StanZegel  (talk) 10:59, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Stan, I guess you are up and about early as I am. Your additions to the Martin Luther are much appreciated and a tribute to your genius. Thank you! drboisclair 11:26, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Dave, as I look more into this, and read the summary of the 1543 pamphlet, I cannot help but see the parallels in those recommended actions in context with those done against the Palastinians since 1948. I guess it matters whose ox is being gored. --StanZegel  (talk) 11:35, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
 * You are so right about this. It had even been discussed in Israel about deporting all of the Palestinians out of the region. I remember my professor Dr. Erich Kiehl, who spent many years in the Holy Land, who said that the Israelis should not have been simply given the land of others, namely the Palestinians. Both must seek to coexist. Thank you for your even temperedness and editorial genius. drboisclair 11:45, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

 * A Biblical Archeologist told me that in today's Holy Land, Christians do not count at all. I think we are only 3% of the population. This was brought home to me in the aftermath of a massacre by a militant Zionist at the Tomb of the Patriarchs: Jews and Muslims were henceforth to use separate doors, reserved exclusively for them. No door for Christians who might want to visit. (I think that for our $3 billion sent there annually, we might be allowed in the door?) --StanZegel  (talk) 11:55, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Can we dispute the position of an administrator?
Stan, I hope that I have not fallen afoul of an administrator Mr./Mrs. Jayjg, with whom I have gone back and forth on the "Luther and the Jews": I have taken the liberty of reverting the paragraph to the way it was a week ago, and added some of his stuff. Please look at the bottom of the talk page. I hope that Bob will not be upset with this mishevah. Reverting has excised your helpful comments. I wish we could just wave a magic wand and erase "On the Jews and their Lies" Where men are great, great are their failings. Broodingly yours, drboisclair 20:54, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

You missed a good one
Stan, I have backed down from reverting the "Luther and Judaism" paragraph. Jayjg, Humus Sapiens, and Slrubenstein have made changes to the article. One does not realize the fire one is playing with when one takes on issues like "Anti-Semitism." IMHO, Luther was so wrong to write On the Jews and Their Lies, and I have concluded to leave it at that. I resonate with your good points on this whole issue. Cordially, drboisclair 23:13, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Stan, perhaps the Talk:Martin Luther page should be archived again. Of course, my faux pas should rightly stand out to accuse me. You may want to add Bob's quote from Luther's last sermon. The conversation in User_talk:Drboisclair and User_talk:Slrubenstein might interest you. Perhaps, we will have to let this die down. Bob may not be pleased. drboisclair 23:32, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Apologies
Stan, please undo the damage I have done if you please. I just did not want anyone to do violence to what you and Bob have so well done. drboisclair 17:34, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
 * OK, now you can go back in and fix up the title page link, etc. --StanZegel  (talk) 17:44, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Stan, Blessings. And done! May the vandals stay away!drboisclair 17:46, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Albert of Saxony-Teschen
Hi. I tried to fix Albert of Saxony-Teschen... but it still redirects to a non-existant page. Perhaps it should go to Albert, Duke of Saxony? Indium 03:57, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
 * No, it should go to Albert of Saxe-Teschen, which I am creating. --StanZegel  (talk) 04:00, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Yep, just noticed. Sorry.  Though maybe it should be linked from the page I mentioned, and the Rulers of Saxony page if it's appropriate. I'm not familiar with the subject, so I can't say.  Indium 04:03, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
 * He was never a ruler of Saxony, merely a younger son of one. He is more involved in Austrian history through his marriage to Marie Christine of Austria the favorite daughter of the great empress Maria Theresa. I'm glad you are policing red links! --StanZegel  (talk) 04:07, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Luther and bouts with the devil
Stan, please see the remark I made about some contributors trying to emphasize the scatological with Luther. In the end they trivialize themselves with this garbage. drboisclair 07:20, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Dave I think your response on Toilet Theology was very well written. Good for you!
 * On one of my trips to Wittenberg, I happened to be in the basement of the Lutherhaus and noticed that there, under the spiral stairs that are the reason for the round towers, was the loo. I remembered Luther talking about his sudden realization when he was "in the tower" and references (in Bainton?) to his lifelong constipation and contemplation. "Eureka," I thought "I am at the site of Sola Fide!" Later I read news accounts of the excavation of another tower base with the speculation that this might be the tower in which Luther had his office. Thus a revelation while "in the tower" may not have been in the context often thought. --StanZegel  (talk) 19:22, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

C. F. W. Walther Alert
I have someone constantly trying to put Walther's view on slavery into a very short, sketchy article on him. Want to join the fun? --CTSWyneken 02:42, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Sure! By the way, if you click your "preferences" tab and then (1) enter your e-mail address and (2) check the "Enable email from other users" box, it allows someone like me to send you e-mail for things not worthy of permanent preservation in the talk pages, without revealing your e-mail addres to the whole world at large. --StanZegel  (talk) 02:49, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

For the Missouri fathers, the slavery question was irrelevant. None of them were slaveholders and neither side used the scripture correctly. From their perspective, they were outsiders looking in. So, the position was not particularly important to them. BTW, I did enable email, but do not have a clue how to use it.

--Bob 20:25, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

template:biohead
See if biohead now works properly. And on its Talk page add Usage instructions. (SEWilco 04:51, 10 November 2005 (UTC))

Stephansdom bells
Hi Stan, even as a native speaker I can't make out the meaning of the bell's names. I suspect that they were named for people who made some donations when they were molded. BTW, I'd suggest a more extensive explanation of the beer curfew bell, which didn't make any sense to me before reading the Stephansdom website. Best, Martg76 18:08, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

The struggle begins anew on Luther
I am glad that you are standing your ground. You are trying to let Luther speak for himself. I thought that we were through with this wrangling. O well. Dave drboisclair 19:28, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Dear colleagues, perhaps a little explanation is in order. This is not "wrangling", for me the issue is very serious. I am sorry you feel this way and it was enough a single anonymous vandal to destroy our compromise and understanding. Please correct me if I am wrong: throughout his entire life, ML held that the Jews do not deserve to live in the midst of Chrisitians and tried to convert them by any means, from "love" to violence. He never accepted that another faith has the right to exist. We all know what followed, another instance of that must be prevented at any cost. Your initial reaction is a good evidence (and I must say, a huge surprise for me) that a lot still needs to be done for education and reconciliation. Humus sapiens 02:32, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Dear Colleague Humus: I don't know that you are right about Luther's "lifelong feelings that Jews do not deserve to live amidst Christians." Tired to seeing only others' characterizations of the 1543 pamphlet, I now reading it cover to cover to see what he really says, and not what others say he said. When I get done with the 66,000 words of it, I'll be in a better position to say. But from what I have read so far, I have not yet gotten that impression. Perhaps it will develop in later pages. --StanZegel  (talk) 02:49, 15 November 2005 (UTC) In the meanwhile, perhaps pages 24 et seq from here might help answer your question. --StanZegel   (talk) 05:49, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Stan, I have taken the liberty to remove the sentences about "controversy" from the two Luther articles. I think that those who argue for removal have sufficiently proved their point. The question may have generated much posting back and forth here, but not in the world out there. I have been mentioning your proposal. drboisclair 17:15, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

AfD
I've opened up an AFD for Articles for deletion/Naming conventions (Western nobility). That article was created in effect as an alternative to Naming conventions (names and titles) and then rewritten by the author, in a cut and paste. I strongly disapprove of someone doing a cut and paste of one article, moving it to a new (badly named) page and editing it without a consensus (or even it would seem an awareness among people that this new page existed). Feel free to cast a vote on the issue. [[user_talk:Jtdirl]] 23:56, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Vindobona
Hi Stan! Thanks for your message. I don't know the actual etymology, but some sites I found with google maintain it is celtic. The German wikipedia site claims that Vindobona originally was a Celtic settlement. BTW, you are doing a great job on Stephansdom. You must be putting an incredible amount of time into this!. Martg76 18:09, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Kapuzinergruft
Your comment on this addressed to Noel has turned up on discussion for badger - persons - traders.

Steffl
If you really need to translate this, I'd definitely prefer the adult version (although it is a diminutive form). Note that Steffl is also a department store near Stephansdom. Martg76 09:39, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Your question in german wikipedia
Hallo Mister Zegel!

Look at "Benutzer-Diskussion:TuL-Mitglied".

Regards,

TuL-Mitglied

Rogue message
Stan Sorry see drover Neil

Steffl again
Hi Stan! I was not offended at all by your humerous message. I just didn't respond because I was very busy in real life last week. Actually, I was thinking about submitting Stephansdom to Peer review because you have been bringing it very close to featured article status. Martg76 10:37, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Just passing by
You sir have one of the funniest (in a good way) user pages on Wikipedia. Chapeau bas and keep up the good work. Dunemaire 15:53, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Evan Greer
What is the criteria for a DIY artist to have an article? From your comment, it would appear that you have a personal vendetta against anarchists, or are simply not familiar with anarchism. I hope this isn't the case, as I would expect better from a Wikipedian as dedicated as yourself. Daykart 19:10, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Map and more
Stan, please see the talk page re: the map you are inserting. In short, it is misleading and unencyclopedic to lump the public land (that belonged to the Ottoman Empire and then the British Mandate) together with private Palestinian land vs. Jewish-owned land.

Of course you or anyone else is entitled to hold any opinion but it is wrong to promote extreme POV in a serious encyclopedia. I hoped to avoid this, but it is disturbing to observe that in Martin Luther, Martin Luther and the Jews and now in British Mandate of Palestine you are a little too quick to lay blame on the Jews and absolve/support those who target them. I can support this observation with links. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 22:40, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I guess you too are a night owl
Stan, I am sorry if I reverted something you were going to revert. Please go into the battle article On the Jews and Their Lies and make the revisions you wanted to. drboisclair 12:54, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Stephansdom
Hi Stan! Thanks for your message. I like the way you implemented the pictures, at least I can't think of a better way of linking the section headings to the diagrams. Great work on the article! Guten Rutsch, Martg76 09:52, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

self promotion? (M.WItzel page)
As you may see by looking at the history page, I came very late to this game, having been informed of all sorts of ad hominem blogs etc. on this page (that was not even known to me until my intervention).

As you wil see, I have only changed some misinformation, added some links to my work as to counterbalance the constant stream of attacks. Again, pleae READ the history page, I added even a pro AND contra page which gives equal time to my  ' opponents'

So where do you see self-promoton?

As far as I am concerned you may as well delete the whole page,... I do not need it.

Michael Witzel

 * You will note that Witzel's first edit was to remove all links critical of his work. . He has consistently been removing criticism from the page - with no discussion on the talk page - despite repeatedly asking for explanation and dialogue there. The flamewar links were added in the Rigveda page originally by Dab to attack rival Talageri but are not reputable enough to add to Witzel's page. Most of the critical links in the page are ones that Witzel has personally responded to off of wikipedia. It may not be self promotion but is definetely not NPOV because of his attempts to stifle citicism. And is any criticism 'witch hunting' ? if sources are cited and changes discussed (please see talk)? He is criticized by Hindu groups for his bias. Also, I looked for his pro and contra page that he mentions he in history but could not find it. --Pranathi 04:36, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I see the pro and contra page now. But, again, it points to a Witzel page, representing his POV. --Pranathi 06:36, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Maître Suzanne Blum in Duchess of Windsor (Wallis Simpson) article
You deleted <> on the grounds that it is an honorific, not a name. So it is, but it is also the professional designation in metropolitan French to indicate a lawyer and is invariably used with Blum's name. However, accepting for argument's sake that it is inappropriate in a Wikipedia article, would you kindly look at the article John Hewson (former Australian federal Opposition Leader): the first words of the article are, "Dr John Hewson...." I had a little bit of a tussle myself over my attempt to delete this honorific but didn't feel I had standing to press the issue. Do you have any comments? Masalai 01:34, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Styles or titles are usually used in the lead of an article about that person, so I think there is no problem with Hewson, but Suzanne Blum is but a player in the article about the Duchess of Windsor. We have similar confusion problems with German bios where the uninitiated may not realize that say, Georg Ritter von Schönerer does not have a middle name of "Ritter" because that is a title (and an explanatory template has been added to help the reader avoid such mistakes. Perhaps if italics were used to show that the honorific is different from her proper name, the problem might be eliminated: Maître Suzanne Blum  What do you think? --StanZegel   (talk) 03:12, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Sure, why not.Masalai 03:37, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Please consider this
Stan, I think that Mr. Rubenstein would like your opinion on this as I would David drboisclair 00:06, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

M Witzel
-- why are you calling it a "self-promotion page"? I created the article, and I can assure you that I am not Mr. Witzel, who appears to be editing as, and far from edit-warring is quite restrained in only removing the worst "online witchhunting" links that are added to the article. In any case, the proper template to add if you feel an article is "self-promotional" would be importance or advert. I am sorry I don't know Mr Witzel's birthday. If you feel it is lacking, you may try inquiring with User:Witzel or write to Harvard. regards, dab (ᛏ) 07:38, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Wallis, Duchess of Windsor
Actually, Stan, your change of Wallis, the Duchess of Windsor to Wallis, Duchess of Windsor was incorrect. WP changed policy on the matter about 6-8 weeks ago. The reason was simple: the format, is actually the format used for divorced wives of peers, eg Diana, Princess of Wales, Sarah, Duchess of York, etc. After a vote it was decided that wives and widows would not be put in that form because it was causing confusion over who was divorced and who was not. Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall strictly speaking would be Camilla's title if she and Charles divorced, not her title now. So all current spouses or widows were moved to include the which is less inaccurate. So we have the divorced Diana, Princess of Wales but the married Camilla, The Duchess of Cornwall. Technically Wallis, following standard maiden name rules should be at Wallis Simpson but for some reason people want to leave her and Diana at their live titles. (And we call this an encyclopædia!!!) The consensus on including the was so overwhelming it was practically unanimous. (It wasn't thought necessary to change Charles, Prince of Wales etc because people are hardly likely to think that in that form it refers to someone called Charles who is the ex-wife of the Prince of Wales!) FearÉIREANN \(caint)  21:15, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the update, Jim. I appreciate it. --StanZegel  (talk) 23:44, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry
Hi Stan. Sorry for not responding to your request. I haven't been logged in much recently, since I'm currently very busy. Best, Martg76 22:08, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Category:Antisemitism (People)
Up for deletion again - Cordially SirIsaacBrock

Martin Luther
Hello Stan,

Nice to meet you!

I like your User Page picture with the 2000 books :) When I started reading I thought you were a history teacher in retirement.  People like you are the backbone of Wikipedia !!

Martin Luther and the Jews do you disagree with this article ?? SirIsaacBrock 00:32, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I think that, as it is today, it is one-sided and repetitive, pushing a distorted POV about a very minor part of the entire work of Luther out of proportion. --StanZegel  (talk) 04:40, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Kaisergruft
Image:HabsburgStammtafelGruftMTheresia56.png seems to imply that Marie Antoinette is buried in the Kaisergruft, or am I wrong? Marie-Antoinette, to my best knowledge, is buried in Saint Denis Basilica. David.Monniaux 21:30, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Her number is preceded by an "x" which the boxed "subscript numbers" explanation on the article's page explains "When necessary to establish continuity, a person buried elsewhere is assigned a number preceded by an x and then listed in the Selected Other Habsburgs section." but obviously that is not sufficient. I'll add that caution to the graphics pages too. Thanks for pointing out the situation. --StanZegel   (talk) 14:17, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Mmmh. I'm actually not 100% sure she's in Saint-Denis. Louis XVI and Marie-Antoinette do have a tomb in Saint-Denis, but I don't know whether their remains are there. I'd better ask around. David.Monniaux 18:23, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Jesus Article Vote
Come by and vote. Don't talk though. --CTSWyneken 11:30, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Sacramental Union article
Your kind look at this fledgling article is kindly invited! drboisclair 20:23, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Jesus Talk Runoff Vote
Hopefully, this will be the last vote on this paragraph. --CTSWyneken 11:46, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Lutheran Church -- Missouri Synod
Stan:

Would you take a look at the page? I do not have the time to check it and a lot of edits by an anonymous user have been done today. --CTSWyneken 23:42, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Question
hi StanZegel, first of all I have to congratulate you on your extensive work on the Kaisergruft in Vienna, just amazing work. Quick questions: what exactly was the name of this archduke here Archduke Leopold Alfons of Austria, because I am getting conflicting informations. Was he Leopold Maria Alphons, or Leopold Alphons or Leopold Alfons, I think there are some names missing either in the article's name and even in the article itself. I just can't find more info on him, that's why I thought maybe you would know.
 * Hi Gryffindor. I have admired the work you have been doing in Central European history. I'm flattered to be asked something by you! I believe his name as Leopold Maria Alfons... as I have it in the article, which I based in part upon his entry in the online Gotha, and the rest from his obituary. I see someone changed the lead of the article to omit the Alphons. --StanZegel  (talk) 04:13, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Another question: the offsprings of the electors (Kurfürsten) of Saxony and Bavaria for example, what title did they have? were they Kurfürsten and Kurfürstinnen as well, or only their parents were that? They couldn't be Prince or Princess yet I believe, since that only started after they became kingdoms later on. I tried to check this Online Gotha here but maybe you know some more things about this? Looking forward, thanks alot. Gryffindor 10:49, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I have never seen the offspring referred to as Kurfürsten. For example Albert of Saxe-Teschen was the son of a Kurfürst, but did not carry that title. And the Kaiser was also a Kurfürst because he was King of Bohemia, but his offspring were always Erzherzogen, not Kurfürsten. I believe only the actual Kurfürst himself used the title. --StanZegel  (talk) 04:13, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Hello Stan, thank you for your help and your comments. So the children of the Kurfürsten were.... ? Dukes? Duchess? For example on the article Marie-Josèphe of Saxony, do you know what she was? you can answer on my talk page, otherwise I wouldn't even notice your response, dankeschön! Gryffindor  19:28, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your information, I just received a flood of information from Lethiere as well. Ok, so in this case it is assumed that she was "Prinzessin v. Sachsen", whereas Albert of Saxe-Teschen was "Herzog", ja? Gryffindor  07:37, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Imperial Crypt
Since you seem to have done a lot of work on this page, do you have any objections to me changing the title of this page to Imperial crypt in Vienna? The current name isn't descriptive enough. The one thing I'm not sure about is if crypt should be capitalized. The standard is to not capitalize unless it's a proper name. Thanks for your time. --JeffW 16:02, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I think "Imperial Crypt (Vienna)" would be more in line with standard usage of distinguishing variations.
 * (I used to work with MCP back in the 1970s. IBM friends couldn't understand why I didn't need 50 cards of JCL, and could have only a RUN THISPROGRAM without specifying where on disk the files were, what to do with abends, etc., they couldn't believe a computer could be smart!)
 * --StanZegel  (talk) 20:45, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yep. If only the sales people knew how to sell the things.
 * Is Imperial Crypt its proper name then? Not the imperial crypt?  --JeffW 23:08, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * "The ..." is not normally used for titles of articles in Wikipedia. --StanZegel  (talk) 04:49, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
 * What I was getting at is should the C in Crypt be capitalized. It doesn't matter now, as I've moved it as you suggested.  --JeffW 13:09, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I saw your request for the obituary of Leopold Lorraine on the newspaper request page. Do you have his basic information? If so, I apologize for the repetition, but if not, here it is: Name:	Leopold Lorraine [1] ————————————————————————————————————————————— Birth:	30 January 1897	Zagreb Death:	14 March 1958	Willimantic, Connecticut Father:	Leopold Salvator of Austria (1863-1931) Mother:	Blanca of Spain (1868-1949) Misc. Notes took surname Lorraine on accepting American citizenship in 1953. Spouses ————————————————————————————————————————————— 1:	Freiin Dagmar Nicolcis-Podrinje [1] Birth:	5 July 1898	Agram Death:	15 November 1967	Lausanne Father:	Freiherr Wladimir Nicolcis-Podrinje Mother:	Baronessa Ella Scotti Misc. Notes created Freifrau von Wolfenau 12 Feb 1922 by the head of the Grand Ducal House of Tuscany. Marriage:	12 April 1919	Vienna, Austria Divorce:	1931 Children:	Maria Gabrielle (1922-) ————————————————————————————————————————————— 2:	Alice Coburn Birth:	20 January 1894	New York Death:	25 August 1960	New York Father:	Alexander Coburn Mother:	Ann Gibson Marriage:	1932

Sources 1. Willis, Daniel (also known as Daniel A. Brewer-Ward), The Descendants of Louis XIII, Clearfield Co., Inc., Baltimore, Maryland, 1999, ISBN 0-8063-4942-5, p. 626.

Also, if you don't have the obit already, let me know and I'll send it to you. - Nunh-huh 20:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Reverting
Stan, you seem to have stopped editing Wikipedia other than to be summoned by your friends for reverts. Either that, or you are editing with a different account otherwise. Either way, it's disruptive and I'm requesting that you stop. Please either return as a regular editor with one account, or stop arriving on the scene only to revert. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:13, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Image Hunting
Hey, Stan, would you look through the image gallery for a pic of a book or a library which is in the public domain. I've only had time to do a quick search, since this is a busy day for today. I need it for my RfA thank you notes. Bob--CTSWyneken 19:49, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Luther's Second Tier Colleagues
Dear Stan: If you look at the Luther page, the German Bible section, you'll note I'm starting articles on the smaller figures without them. Aurogallus is a bit thin. There's also no article on the Castle Church. If you'd like to do something quieter, I'd love help with them. --CTSWyneken 02:09, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Johannes Cuspinian
Dear Stan: I've just seeded this article from the Catholic Encyclopedia. Since you have a soft heart for these Holy Roman Empire types, I thought you'd like to know its out there and could use some work. --CTSWyneken 13:17, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Re: Your comment
When I put my statement up, stating an age was not required. That is why it is not there; it is not because I deliberately omitted it. Linuxbeak (AAAA!) 15:33, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Merging german title templates
Since you created a number of them, I'd like to bring to your attention, the suggestion I made on Template talk:German title Freiherr that the German title templates might be merged into one. --Swift 06:59, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Paternoster
As they say in the movies, "oh be-have". Seriously, though, we are trying to write an encyclopedia here, so don't make joke edits, as you did to paternoster. Some readers looking for a serious article might not find them amusing. Remember, millions of people read Wikipedia, so we have to take what we do a bit seriously here. If you'd like to experiment with editing, try the sandbox, where you can write whatever you want (as long as it's not offensive).  J Rawle  (Talk) 11:30, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

 * The explanation of the name that I heard some years ago was the similarity to a string of prayer beads. (I didn't add it to this article.) So when I saw your edit – made without a giving a reference, and without explaining it on the talk page – removing what I thought was the correct explanation and substituting one that seems more humourous, I naturally thought it was a joke edit. Perhaps instead of that template you would have preferred a vandalism warning? But either way it wasn't meant as a provocation – I regularly warn people for vandalism or inappropriate edits, simply as a way of contributing to the Wikipedia community. (It was intentionally the least severe warning I could find.)

 * I think there is room in the article for both explanations of the name, seeing as we don't actually have a source for either of them at the moment.  J Rawle  (Talk) 14:26, 23 August

2006 (UTC)

 * Citing both sounds good to me. That is a problem with folk etymology: the authoritative sources are few. I think the "oh my God what is this infernal contraption???" explanation is the more plausible of the origin, with the rosary explanation being a deriviative to explain the title after it had reached popular use. Otherwise, why was the lift not called a "rosary" right off the bat? But as you say, formal documentation of the popular name is lacking. (We have a similar situation with "Guy" as term for a person. It seems to have originated in the streets of New York, where the Yiddish term "goy" had that usage. But someone of a different cultural background and perhaps more highly educated, speculated it came from the name of Guy Falkes, a minor character out of British history unknown west of Cornwall, and that has been published. Speculation, all. --StanZegel  (talk) 15:03, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

 * You're probably referring to Guy Fawkes, who is not that unknown. And I did do some research concerning the reason why this type of lift was called paternoster, and I didn't come across that rather humorous-sounding explanation you have provided. Not once. All the best, <KF> 13:02, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I would also go for cite both as the way forward, at least until an authoritative source can be found. 82.45.248.177 21:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

 * The German Wikipedia entry for 'Paternosteraufzug' [] lists the rosary as the source of the name, with some more details. While not an external reference, this sounds much more believable that the anecdotal prayer.. Sejtam 05:05, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Austria
Are you interested in joining WikiProject Austria? You can join here. Kingjeff 00:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

pedigrees
You may wish to check the several genealogical trees mentioned at Articles for deletion/Greek pedigree of Empress Sisi. Maed 02:20, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Lutheranism Project
--CTS Wyneken (talk) 11:06, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Joan of Spain
Hi, I have problem with Joan of Spain and her date of birth. Richard Reifenscheid in Die Habsburger in Lebensbildern, von Rudolf I. bis Karl I. (Verlag Hugendubel, Kreuzlingen 2000) says that she was born June 26, 1537. All Wikipedias and B. Hamann ''Die Habsburger. Ein biographisches Lexikon'' (München 1993) say that she was born June 24, 1535. Could you comment it? What do you think about it? What is reliable source of information? Greetings :-), Wiktoryn 17:52, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You might want to consult Lexikon des Mittelalter. I don't know what it would show. My usual reference is Heraldry of the Royal Familes of Europe (Louda & Maclagan) and it shows 1537. Paul Theroff's Online Gotha doesn't start until 1700 Spain, so it did not show anything. I'm sorry I cannot find any more on this for you. --StanZegel  (talk) 22:33, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:WinfieldRegister Index727 20070703 Page 01.jpg)
Thanks for uploading Image:WinfieldRegister Index727 20070703 Page 01.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that all non-free media not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BetacommandBot 15:14, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Kaisersgruft
I would like to call your attention to a new article about Palatinal Crypt, the burial place of the Hungarian Habsburgs. Your genealogical tables in the Kaisersgruft article are really cool, and I hope that some day you will have time and energy to create a similar table for this new (and yet imperfect) sister article. Best wishes Zello 01:23, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

St Stephen's Cathedral (Vienna)
Hi Stan, The St Stephen's Cathedral wikipage is now beeing thoroughly copyedited by the League of Copyeditors. As major contributor, you may want to have a look at requests from the copy editor here:Talk:St._Stephen%27s_Cathedral%2C_Vienna.

Back in 2005, you uploaded several Floor plans in PNG format. Some of them were exported from a vectorial drawing program (e.g. ). If you still have the original files, what do think about converting them to vectorial formats? I will be glad to help you with this conversion to SVG format.

Thanks for your time, Alberto Fernandez Fernandez (talk) 18:14, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Good job man! Love the site!
Hi,

My name is Gert-Jan Zegel. I live in Haarlem in Holland. Originally from IJmuiden (velsen). Great to see that my relatives oversea (wich i never knew about) are so involved in "the family". Just now i discoverd that ZEGEL DAY excisted. Unfortunatly it was 2 days ago. Although i never knew that this day excisted, i would like to thank you for indirectly letting me know. if you would like to contact me, my e-mail is: gert@thesheer.com

86.86.183.146 (talk) 00:09, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

gaurenteed student loans
guaranteed students loans offered thru dept of education equal indentured servitude? walks like a duck, quacks like a duck just a different word for a duck! cordial regards John k at ahandsomehomeless@gmail.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.214.50.110 (talk) 04:00, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Gifting
Just so you know, "to gift" is a perfectly respectable English word that goes back to the 17th century - it's the verb from which "gifted" as in "gifted children" etc comes. And it has a slightly different meaning to donate, just as you'd use "gift" and "donation" in slightly different contexts. So I've reverted your edit to Braemar, as gift was more appropriate in the context. Cheers. Le Deluge (talk) 08:19, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "To gift" is not archaic, it's a modern English word. It's maybe got a slightly legalistic flavour, but that's completely appropriate in this context. I appreciate that we should not use complicated words for the sake of it, but nor are we on simple.wikipedia.org here either - and gifted is the word commonly used in (modern) history books to describe such transactions. Le Deluge (talk) 12:22, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Old Court-New Court controversy
Thanks for your recent edits to Old Court-New Court controversy. I just have a concern with the cites you added. Specifically, I'm not familiar enough with the abbreviations you've used to locate the references you are citing. Could you please clarify the meanings of "1 J.J.Marsh. (Ky.) 206" and "81 S.W.2d 571 (1935)" so that full bibliographic information can be added for these sources? Thanks. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 18:58, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification. Are these legal cites common enough for most people to understand them? Do the comply with WP:CITE? I'm mainly concerned about the article retaining its GA status. I don't want someone to bring it to WP:GAR and me not be able to explain those cites. Is there an un-abbreviated way to list these reports in the References section in addition to the in-line cites? Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 19:37, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Imperial Crypt Vaults Image
I have edited the image as per your suggestions. I would appreciate it if you could check it over. Thanks for the help.

Sotakeit (talk) 17:14, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

You are now a Reviewer
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Hi Stan, my Name is Markus Bingel. I work for the publishing house Reise Know-How Verlag (Germany, www.reise-know-how.de). We are currently producing a tour guide on Vienna, called CityTrip PLUS Wien and by accident found your map of the "Stephansdom". As it is very detailed and well drawn, we would like to ask, whether it would be possible to use it in our book for free. Unfortunatelly the drawing contains several English marks. We would would need an open file like SVG to alter the English notions. Would it be possible to send us such a file? We would be very grateful and of course You would be among the first people to receive a free copy of the book.

Kindest regards

Markus Bingel — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.91.116.33 (talk) 09:24, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
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Hello, Stan, I trust that you are doing well. I wonder if you could look in on these two files that some feel should be deleted Files for discussion/2016 May 10. They are the first two entries. Your yea or nay on either or both may be helpful. Will contact you via email with changed contact info. All the best, David--Drboisclair (talk) 08:43, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

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text:
Selective estrogen receptor modulator

Selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs), also known as estrogen receptor agonist/antagonists (ERAAs), are a class of drugs that act on estrogen receptors (ER). A characteristic that distinguishes these substances from pure ER agonists-antagonists (that is, full agonists and silent antagonists) is that their action is different in various tissues, allowing them to selectively inhibit or stimulate estrogen-like action in various tissues.

Medical uses
SERMs are used for various estrogen-related diseases, including treatment of ovulatory dysfunction in the management of infertility, treatment and prevention of postmenopausal osteoporosis, treatment and reduction in risk of breast cancer and treatment of dyspareunia due to menopause. SERM is also used in combination with conjugated estrogens indicated for the treatment of estrogen deficiency symptoms, and vasomotor symptoms associated with menopause.

Examples
Tamoxifen is a first-line hormonal treatment for ER-positive metastatic breast cancer. It is used for breast cancer risk reduction in women at high risk, and as adjuvant treatment for axillary node-negative and node-positive, ductal carcinoma in situ. Tamoxifen treatment is also useful in the treatment of bone density and blood lipids in postmenopausal women. Adverse effects include hot flushes and two to three times higher relative risk of developing endometrial cancer compared to women of an age-matched population.

Toremifene, a chlorinated tamoxifen derivative, causes fewer DNA adducts in the liver than seen with tamoxifen in preclinical studies and was developed to avoid hepatic carcinomas. It is used as endocrine therapy for women with ER/PR-positive stage 4 or recurrent metastatic breast cancer and has demonstrated similar efficacy compared to tamoxifen as adjuvant treatment of breast cancer and in the treatment of metastatic breast cancer.

Raloxifene is used for the prevention and treatment of postmenopausal osteoporosis and breast cancer prevention in high-risk postmenopausal women with osteoporosis. Preclinical and clinical reports suggest that it is considerably less potent than estrogen for the treatment of osteoporosis. It is associated with an acceptable endometrial profile and has not demonstrated tamoxifen-like effects on the uterus but has been associated with adverse effects such as venous thromboembolism and vasomotor symptoms, including hot flushes.

Ospemifene is an analogous metabolite of toremifene. Unlike tamoxifen, toremifene is not a rat hepatocarcinogen and therefore ospemifene would also be a safer SERM than tamoxifen. It is used for the treatment of moderate to severe dyspareunia, a symptom of vulvar and vaginal atrophy associated with menopause. Clinical data on breast cancer are not available, but both in vitro and in vivo data suggest that ospemifene may have chemopreventive activity in breast tissue.

Bazedoxifene is used for treatment of osteoporosis in postmenopausal women at increased risk of fracture. It has been shown to be relatively safe and well tolerated. It shows no breast or endometrial stimulation and in the first two years, the small increase is better in venous thromboembolism, and similar in the long term to other SERMs. The advantage of bazedoxifene over raloxifene is that it increases endothelial nitric oxide synthase activity and does not antagonize the effect of 17β-estradiol on vasomotor symptoms.

The first tissue selective estrogen complex (TSEC) combines conjugated estrogens and the SERM bazedoxifene to blend their activities. The combination therapy is used in the treatment of moderate to severe vasomotor symptoms associated with menopause, prevention of postmenopausal osteoporosis as well as treatment of estrogen deficiency symptoms in non-hysterectomized postmenopausal women. The combination allows for the benefits of estrogen with regard to relief of vasomotor symptoms without estrogenic stimulation of the endometrium.

SERMs have also been used as a hormonal treatment option by some transgender people.

Pharmacodynamics
SERMs are competitive partial agonists of the ER. Different tissues have different degrees of sensitivity to the activity of endogenous estrogens, so SERMs produce estrogenic or antiestrogenic effects depending on the specific tissue in question as well as the percentage of intrinsic activity (IA) of the SERM. An example of a SERM with high IA and thus mostly estrogenic effects is chlorotrianisene, while an example of a SERM with low IA and thus mostly antiestrogenic effects is ethamoxytriphetol. SERMs like clomifene and tamoxifen are comparatively more in the middle in their IA and their balance of estrogenic and antiestrogenic activity. Raloxifene is a SERM that is more antiestrogenic than tamoxifen; both are estrogenic in bone, but raloxifene is antiestrogenic in the uterus while tamoxifen is estrogenic in this part of the body.

Binding site

SERM act on the estrogen receptor (ER), which is an intracellular, ligand-dependent transcriptional activator and belongs to the nuclear receptor family. Two different subtypes of ER have been identified, ERα and ERβ. ERα is considered the main medium where estrogen signals are transduced at the transcriptional level and is the predominant ER in the female reproductive tract and mammary glands while ERβ is primarily in vascular endothelial cells, bone, and male prostate tissue. ERα and ERβ concentration are known to be different in tissues during development, aging or disease state. Many characteristics are similar between these two types such as size (~600 and 530 amino acids) and structure. ERα and ERβ share approximately 97% of the amino-acid sequence identity in the DNA-binding domain and about 56% in the ligand-binding domain. The main difference of the ligand-binding domains is determined by Leu-384 and Met-421 in ERα, which are replaced by Met-336 and Ile-373, respectively, in ERβ. The variation is greater on the N-terminus between ERα and ERβ.

DNA-binding domain consists of two subdomains. One with a proximal box that is involved in DNA recognition while the other contains a distal box responsible for DNA-dependent, DNA-binding domain dimerization. The proximal box sequence is identical between ERα and ERβ, which indicates similar specificity and affinity between the two subgroups. DNA-binding domain's globular proteins contain eight cysteines and allow for a tetrahedral coordination of two zinc ions. This coordination makes the binding of ER to estrogen response elements possible. Ligand-binding domain is a globular, three-layered structure made of 11 helixes and contains a pocket for the natural or synthetic ligand. Influencing factors for binding affinity are mainly the presence of a phenol moiety, molecular size and shape, double bonds and hydrophobicity.

The differential positioning of the activating function 2 (AF-2) helix 12 in the ligand-binding domain by the bound ligand determines whether the ligand has an agonistic and antagonistic effect. In agonist-bound receptors, helix 12 is positioned adjacent to helices 3 and 5. Helices 3, 5, and 12 together form a binding surface for an NR box motif contained in coactivators with the canonical sequence LXXLL (where L represents leucine or isoleucine and X is any amino acid). Unliganded (apo) receptors or receptors bound to antagonist ligands turn helix 12 away from the LXXLL-binding surface that leads to preferential binding of a longer leucine-rich motif, LXXXIXXX(I/L), present on the corepressors NCoR1 or SMRT. In addition, some cofactors bind to ER through the terminals, the DNA-binding site or other binding sites. Thus, one compound can be an ER agonist in a tissue rich in coactivators but an ER antagonist in tissues rich in corepressors.

Mechanism of action

Estrogenic compounds span a spectrum of activity ranging from:

 * Full agonists (agonistic in all tissues) such as the natural endogenous hormone estradiol
 * Mixed agonists/antagonistics (agonistic in some tissues while antagonistic in others) such as tamoxifen (a SERM).
 * Pure antagonists (antagonistic in all tissues) such as fulvestrant.

SERMs are known to stimulate estrogenic actions in tissues such as the liver, bone and cardiovascular system but known to block estrogen action where stimulation is not desirable, such as in the breast and the uterus. This agonistic or antagonistic activity causes varied structural changes of the receptors, which results in activation or repression of the estrogen target genes. SERMs interact with receptors by diffusing into cells and their binding to ERα or ERβ subunits, which results in dimerization and structural changes of the receptors. This makes it easier for the SERMs to interact with estrogen response elements which leads to the activation of estrogen-inducible genes and mediating the estrogen effects.

SERMs unique feature is their tissue- and cell-selective activity. There is growing evidence to support that SERM activity is mainly determined by selective recruitment of corepressors and coactivators to ER target genes in specific types of tissues and cells. SERMs can impact coactivator protein stability and can also regulate coactivator activity through post-translational modifications such as phosphorylation. Multiple growth signaling pathways, such as HER2, PKC, PI3K and more, are downregulated in response to anti-estrogen treatment. Steroid receptor coactivator 3 (SRC-3) is phosphorylated by activated kinases that also enhance its coactivator activity, affect cell growth and ultimately contribute to drug resistance.

The ratio of ERα and ERβ at a target site may be another way SERM activity is determined. High levels of cellular proliferation correlate well with a high ERα:ERβ ratio, but repression of cellular proliferation correlates to ERβ being dominant over ERα. The ratio of ERs in neoplastic and normal breast tissue could be important when considering chemoprevention with SERMs.

When looking at the differences between ERα and ERβ, Activating Function 1 (AF-1) and AF-2 are important. Together they play an important part in the interaction with other co-regulatory proteins that control gene transcription. AF-1 is located in the amino terminus of the ER and is only 20% homologous in ERα and ERβ. On the other hand, AF-2 is very similar in ERα and ERβ, and only one amino acid is different. Studies have shown that by switching AF-1 regions in ERα and ERβ, that there are specific differences in transcription activity. Generally, SERMs can partially activate engineered genes through ERα by an estrogen receptor element, but not through ERβ. Although, raloxifene and the active form of tamoxifen can stimulate AF-1-regulated reporter genes in both ERα and ERβ.

Because of the discovery that there are two ER subtypes, it has brought about the synthesis of a range of receptor specific ligands that can switch on or off a particular receptor. However, the external shape of the resulting complex is what becomes the catalyst for changing the response at a tissue target to a SERM.

X-ray crystallography of estrogens or antiestrogens has shown how ligands program the receptor complex to interact with other proteins. The ligand-binding domain of the ER demonstrates how ligands promote and prevent coactivator binding based on the shape of the estrogen or antiestrogen complex. The broad range of ligands that bind to the ER can create a spectrum of ER complexes that are fully estrogenic or antiestrogenic at a specific target site. The main result of a ligand-binding to ER is a structural rearrangement of the ligand-binding pocket, primarily in the AF-2 of the C-terminal region. The binding of ligands to ER leads to the formation of a hydrophobic pocket that regulates cofactors and receptor pharmacology. The correct folding of ligand-binding domain is required for activation of transcription and for ER to interact with a number of coactivators.

Coactivators are not just protein partners that connect sites together in a complex. Coactivators play an active role in modifying the activity of a complex. Post-translation modification of coactivators can result in a dynamic model of steroid hormone action by way of multiple kinase pathways initiated by cell surface growth factor receptors. Under the guidance of a multitude of protein remodelers to form a multiprotein coactivator complex that can interact with the phosphorylated ER at a specific gene promoter site, the core coactivator first has to recruit a specific set of cocoactivators. The proteins that the core coactivator assembles as the core coactivated complex have individual enzymatic activities to methylate or acetylate adjacent proteins. The ER substrates or coenzyme A can be polyubiquitinated by multiple cycles of the reaction or, depending on linkage proteins, they can either be activated further or degraded by the 26S proteasome.

Consequently, to have an effective gene transcription that is programmed and targeted by the structure and phosphorylation status of the ER and coactivators, it is required to have a dynamic and cyclic process of remodeling capacity for transcriptional assembly, after which the transcription complex is then instantly routinely destroyed by the proteasome.

Structure–activity relationships
The core structure of SERMs simulates the 17β-estradiol template. They have two aromatic rings separated by 1-3 atoms (often a stilbene-type of arrangement). Between the two phenyls of the core, SERMs typically have a 4-substituted phenyl group that, when bound to ER, projects from a position of an estratriene nucleus so that helix 12 moves from the receptor opening and blocks the space where coactivator proteins would normally bind and cause ER agonist activity. There has been a lot of variations in the core portion of SERMs while there has been less flexibility with what is tolerated in the side chain. SERMs can be classified by their core structure.

First-generation triphenylethylenes
The first main structural class of SERM-type molecules reported are the triphenylethylenes. The stilbene core (similar to the nonsteroidal estrogen, diethylstilbestrol) essentially mimics steroidal estrogens such as 17β-estradiol, while the side chain overlays with the 11th position of the steroid nucleus. Triphenylethylene derivatives have an additional phenyl group attached to the ethylene bridge group. The 3-position H-bonding ability of phenols is a significant requirement for ER binding.

The first drug, clomifene, has a chloro-substituent on the ethylene side chain which produces similar binding affinities as the later discovered drug tamoxifen. Clomifene is a mixture of estrogenic (cis-form) and antiestrogenic isomers (trans-form). Cis and trans are defined in terms of the geometric relationships of the two unsubstituted phenyl rings. The two isomers of clomifene have different profiles, where the trans-form has activity more similar to tamoxifen while the cis-form behaves more like 17β-estradiol. Cis is approximately ten times more potent than trans. However, trans isomer is the most potent stimulator of epithelial cell hypertrophy since clomifene is antagonistic at low doses and agonistic at high doses. The antagonist isomers may cause inhibitory estrogenic effects in the uterus and mammary cancers, but the estrogenic isomer could combine with novel receptors to produce estrogen-like effects in bone.

Tamoxifen has become the treatment of choice for women diagnosed with all stages of hormone-responsive breast cancer, that is, breast cancer that is both ER and/or progesterone positive. In the US, it is also administered for prophylactic chemoprevention in women identified as high risk for breast cancer. Tamoxifen is a pure antiestrogenic trans-isomer and has differential actions at estrogen target tissues throughout the body. Tamoxifen is selectively antiestrogenic in the breast but estrogen-like in bones and endometrial cancer. Tamoxifen undergo phase I metabolism in the liver by microsomal cytochrome P450 (CYP) enzymes. The major metabolites of tamoxifen are N-desmethyltamoxifen and 4-hydroxytamoxifen.

The crystallographic structure of 4-hydroxytamoxifen interacts with the amino acids of the ER within the ligand-binding domain. The contact between the phenolic group, water molecule, and glutamate and arginine in the receptor (ERα; Glu 353/Arg 394) resolves in high affinity binding so that 4-hydroxy tamoxifen, with a phenolic ring that resembles the A ring of 17β-estradiol, has more than 100 times higher relative binding affinity than tamoxifen, which has no phenol. If its OH group is eliminated or its position is changed the binding affinity is reduced.

The triphenylethylene moiety and the side chain are required for tamoxifen binding to the ER, whereas for 4-hydroxytamoxifen, the side chain, and the phenyl-propene do not appear as crucial structural elements for binding to the ER. The basicity and length of the side chain do not seem to play a crucial role for tamoxifen binding affinity to the ER nor the β-ring of tamoxifen, but the stilbene moiety of tamoxifen is necessary for binding to the ER. The hydroxyl group is of particular importance for ER binding of 4-hydroxytamoxifen, and the ethyl side chain of tamoxifen protrudes out of the ligand-binding domain of the ER.

Few tamoxifen users have had increased rates of uterine cancer, hot flushes, and thromboembolisms. The drug can also cause hepatocarcinomas in rats. This is likely due to the ethyl group of the tamoxifen stilbene core that is subject to allylic oxidative activation causing DNA alkylation and strand scission. This problem is later corrected in toremifene. Tamoxifen is more promiscuous than raloxifene in target sites because of the relationship between ER's amino acid in Asp-351 and the antiestrogenic side chain of the SERM. The side chain for tamoxifen cannot neutralize Asp-351, so the site allosterically influences AF-1 at the proximal end of the ER. This issue is mended with the second-generation drug raloxifene.

Toremifene is a chlorinated derivative of the nonsteroidal triphenylethylene antiestrogen tamoxifen with a chloro substituent at the ethylene side chain producing similar binding affinities to that of tamoxifen. The structure and activity relationship of toremifene is similar to that of tamoxifen, but it has a substantial improvement from the older drug in regards to DNA alkylation. The presence of the added chlorine atom reduces the stability of cations formed from activated allylic metabolites and thus decreases alkylation potential, and indeed toremifene does not display DNA adduct formation in rodent hepatocytes. Toremifene protects against bone loss in ovariectomized rat models and affects bone resorption markers clinically in a similar fashion to tamoxifen. Toremifene undergoes phase I metabolism by microsomal cytochrome P450 enzymes, like tamoxifen, but primarily by the CYP3A4 isoform. Toremifene forms its two major metabolites N-desmethyltoremifene and deaminohydroxy-toremifene (ospemifene) by undergoing N-demethylation and deamination-hydroxylation. N-desmethyltoremifene has similar efficacy as toremifene while 4-hydroxytoremifene has a higher binding affinity to the ER than toremifene. 4-hydroxytoremifene has a role similar to that of 4-hydroxytamoxifen.

Second-generation benzothiophenes

Raloxifene belongs to the second-generation benzothiophene SERM drugs. It has a high affinity for the ER with potent antiestrogenic activity and tissue-specific effects distinct from estradiol. Raloxifene is an ER agonist in bone and the cardiovascular system, but in breast tissue and the endometrium it acts as an ER antagonist. It is extensively metabolized by glucuronide conjugation in the gut and because of that has a low bioavailability of only 2% while that of tamoxifen and toremifene is approximately 100%.

The advantage of raloxifene over the triphenylethylene tamoxifen is reduced effect on the uterus. The flexible hinge group, as well as the antiestrogenic phenyl 4-piperidinoethoxy side chain, are important for minimizing uterine effects. Because of its flexibility the side chain can obtain an orthogonal disposition relative to the core so that the amine of raloxifens side chain is 1 Å closer than tamoxifens to amino acid Asp-351 in ERα's ligand-binding domain.

The critical role of the intimate relationship between the hydrophobic side chain of raloxifene and the hydrophobic residue of the receptor to change both the shape and charge of the external surface of a SERM-ER complex has been confirmed with raloxifene derivatives. When the interactive distance between raloxifene and Asp-351 is increased from 2.7 Å to 3.5-5 Å it causes increased estrogen-like action of the raloxifene-ERα complex. When the piperidine ring of raloxifene is replaced by cyclohexane, the ligand loses antiestrogenic properties and becomes a full agonist. The interaction between SERM's antiestrogenic side chain and amino acid Asp-351 is the important first step in silencing AF-2. It relocates helix 12 away from the ligand-binding pocket thereby preventing coactivators from binding to the SERM-ER complex.

Third-generation
Third-generation compounds display either no uterine stimulation, improved potency, no significant increases in hot flushes or even a combination of these positive attributes.

The first dihydronapthalene SERM, nafoxidine, was a clinical candidate for the treatment of breast cancer but had side effects including severe phototoxicity. Nafoxidine has all three phenyls constrained in a coplanar arrangement like tamoxifen. But with hydrogenation, the double bond of nafoxidene were reduced, and both phenyls are cis-oriented. The amine-bearing side chain can then adopt an axial conformation and locate this group orthogonally to the plane of the core, like ralofoxifene and other less uterotropic SERMs.

Modifications of nafoxidine resulted in lasofoxifene. Lasofoxifene is among the most potent SERMs reported in protection against bone loss and cholesterol reduction. The excellent oral potency of lasofoxifene has been attributed to reduced intestinal glucuronidation of the phenol. Unlike raloxifene, lasofoxifene satisfies the requirement of a pharmacophore model that predicts resistance to gut wall glucuronidation. The structural requirement is a non-planar topology with the steric bulk close to the plane of a fused bicyclic aromatic system. The interactions between the ER and lasofoxifene are consistent with the general features of SERM-ER recognition. Lasofoxifene's large flexible side chain terminates in a pyrrolidine head group and threads its way out toward the surface of the protein, where it interferes directly with the positioning of the AF-2 helix. A salt bridge forms between lasofoxifene and Asp-351. The charge neutralization in this region ER may explain some antiestrogenic effects exerted by lasofoxifene.

The indole system has served as a core unit in SERMs, and when an amine is attached to the indole with a benzyloxyethyl, the resultant compounds were shown to have no preclinical uterine activity while sparing rat bone with full efficacy at low doses. Bazedoxifene is one of those compounds. The core binding domain consists of a 2-phenyl-3-methyl indole and a hexamethylenamine ring at the side chain affecter region. It is metabolized by glucuronidation, with the absolute bioavailability of 6.2%, 3-fold higher than that of raloxifene. It has agonistic effects on bone and lipid metabolism but not on breast and uterine endometrium. It is well tolerated and displays no increase in hot flush incidences, uterine hypertrophy or breast tenderness.

Ospemifene is a triphenylethylene and a known metabolite of toremifene. It's structurally very similar to tamoxifen and toremifene. Ospemifene does not have 2-(dimethylamino)ethoxy group as tamoxifen. Structure–activity relationship studies showed that by removing that group of tamoxifen agonistic activity in the uterus was significantly reduced, but not in bone and cardiovascular system. Preclinical and clinical data show that ospemifene is well tolerated with no major side effects. Benefits that ospemifene may have over other SERMs is its neutral effect on hot flushes and ER-agonist effect on the vagina, improving the symptoms of vaginal dryness.

Binding modes

The SERMs are known to feature four distinctive modes of binding to ER. One of those features are strong hydrogen bonds between the ligand and ERα's Arg-394 and Glu-353 that line the "A-ring pocket" and help the ligand to stay in ER's binding pocket. This is unlike 17β-estradiol which is hydrogen bonded to His-524 in the "D-ring pocket". Other distinctive bindings to the ligand-binding pocket are with a nearly planar "core" structure typically composed of a biaryl heterocycle, equivalent to the A-ring and B-ring of 17β-estradiol, to the corresponding binding site; a bulky side chain from the biaryl structure, analogous to the B-ring of 17β-estradiol and finally a second side group that is the C- and D-ring equivalent and usually aromatic, fills the remainder volume of the ligand-binding pocket.

The small differences between the two subtypes of ER have been used to develop subtype-selective ER modulators, but the high similarity between the two receptors make the development very challenging. Amino acids in the ligand-binding domains differ at two positions, Leu-384 and Met-421 in ERα and Met-336 and Ile-373 in ERβ, but they have similar hydrophobicity and occupying volumes. However, the shapes and the rotational barrier of the amino acid residues are not the same, leading to distinguish α- and β-face of the binding cavity between ERα and ERβ. This causes ERα-preferential-binding of ligand substituents that are aligned downwards facing Met-336 while ligand substituents aligned upwards facing Met-336 are more likely to bind to ERβ. Another difference is in Val-392 in ERα, which is replaced by Met-344 in ERβ. ERβ's binding pocket volume is slightly smaller and the shape a bit different from ERα's. Many ERβ-selective ligands have a largely planar arrangement as the binding cavity of ERβ is slightly narrower than that of ERα, however, this by itself leads to modest selectivity. To attain strong selectivity, the ligand must place substituents very close to one or more of the amino acid differences between ERα and ERβ in order to create a strong repulsive force towards the other subtype receptor. In addition, the structure of the ligand must be rigid. Repulsive interactions may otherwise lead to conformational change of the ligand and, therefore, creating alternative binding modes.

First-generation triphenylethylenes
Tamoxifen is converted by the liver cytochrome P450 into the 4-hydroxytamoxifen and is a more selective antagonist of the ERα subtype than ERβ. 4-hydroxytamoxifen binds to ERs within the same binding pocket that recognizes 17β-estradiol. The receptor recognition of 4-hydroxytamoxifen appears to be controlled by two structural features of 4-hydroxytamoxifen, the phenolic A ring, and the bulky side chain. The phenolic A ring forms hydrogen bonds to the side groups of ER's Arg-394, Glu-354 and to structurally conserved water. The bulky side chain, protruding from the binding cavity, displaces helix 12 from ligand-binding pocket to cover part of the coactivator binding pocket. The ER-4-hydroxytamoxifen complex formation recruits corepressors proteins. This leads to decreased DNA synthesis and inhibition of estrogen activity. Clomifene and torimefene produce binding affinities similar to that of tamoxifen. Thus, these two drugs are more selective antagonists of the ERα subtype than ERβ.

Second-generation benzothiophenes

Raloxifene, like 4-hydroxytamoxifen, binds to ERα with the hydroxyl group of its phenolic "A ring" through hydrogen bonds with Arg-394 and Glu-353. In addition to these bonds, raloxifene forms a second hydrogen bond to ER through the side group of His-524 because of the presence of a second hydroxyl group in the "D ring". This hydrogen bond is also unlike that between 17β-estradiol and His-524, as the imidazole ring of His-524 is rotated to counteract the difference of the oxygen position in raloxifene and in 17β-estradiol. Just like in 4-hydroxytamoxifen, the bulky side chain of raloxifene displaces helix 12.

Third-generation
Lasofoxifene interaction with ERα is typical of those between SERM-ERα such as a nearly planar topology (the tetrahydronapthalene carbocycle), hydrogen bonding with Arg-394 and Glu-353 and the phenyl side chains of lasofoxifene filling the C-ring and D-ring volume of the ligand-binding pocket. Lasofoxifene diverts helix 12 and prevents the binding of coactivator proteins with LXXLL motives. This is achieved by lasofoxifene occupying the space normally filled by Leu-540's side group and modulating the conformation of residues of helix 11 (His-524, Leu-525). Furthermore, lasofoxifene also directly interferes with helix 12 positioning by the drug's ethyl pyrrolidine group. In vitro studies indicate that bazedoxifene competitively blocks 17β-estradiol by high and similar binding to both ERα and ERβ. Bazedoxifenes main binding domain consists of the 2-phenyl-3-methylindole and a hexamethylenamine ring at the side chain affected region.

Ospemifene is an oxidative deaminated metabolite of toremifene as has a similar binding to ER as toremifene and tamoxifen. The competitive binding to ERα and ERβ of the three metabolites 4-hydroxy Ospemifene, 4'-hydroxy Ospemifene and the 4-hydroxy-, side chain carboxylic acid Ospemifene is at least as high as the parent compound.

History
The discovery of SERMs resulted from attempts to develop new contraceptives. Clomifene and tamoxifen prevented conception in rats but did the opposite in humans. Clomifene successfully induced ovulation in subfertile women and on February 1, 1967, it was approved in the US for the treatment of ovulation dysfunction in women who were trying to conceive. Toxicological issues prevented long term use of clomifene and further drug development for other potential applications such as breast cancer treatment and prevention.

It was another ten years before tamoxifen was approved in December 1977, not as a contraceptive but as a hormonal treatment to treat and prevent breast cancer. The discovery in 1987 that the SERMs tamoxifen and raloxifene, then thought to be antiestrogens because of antagonist effects in breast tissue, showed estrogenic effects in preventing bone loss in ovariectomized rats had a great effect on our understanding of the function of estrogen receptors and nuclear receptors in general. The term SERM was introduced to describe these compounds that have a combination of estrogen agonist, partial agonist, or antagonist activities depending on the tissue. Toremifene has been shown to be compatible with tamoxifen, and in 1996 it was approved for use in the treatment of breast cancer in postmenopausal women.

Raloxifene originally failed as a breast cancer drug due to its poor performance in comparison to tamoxifen in the laboratory but the estrogenic effects of raloxifene on bone led to its rediscovery and approval in 1997. It was approved for prevention and treatment of osteoporosis and was the first clinically available SERM to prevent both osteoporosis and breast cancer. Ospemifene was approved on February 26, 2013, for the treatment of moderate to severe dyspareunia, which is a symptom, due to menopause, of vulvar and vaginal atrophy. Combined therapy with conjugated estrogens and the SERM bazedoxifene, was approved on October 3, 2013, for the treatment of vasomotor symptoms linked with menopause. Bazedoxifene is also used in the prevention of postmenopausal osteoporosis. The search for a potent SERM with bone efficacy and better bioavailability than raloxifene led to the discovery of lasofoxifene. Although lasofoxifene was approved in 2009, it was not marketed for three years following the approval, so the marketing authorization for it has expired. In Europe, bazedoxifene is indicated for the treatment of osteoporosis in postmenopausal women at increased risk of fracture while in India ormeloxifene has been used for dysfunctional uterine bleeding and birth control.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Selective estrogen receptor modulator