text:
Talk:Natural philosophy

history of science
I removed this:

According to historians of science, basic science really did not become a true form of science until the second half of the 19th century.

I spent I few years in grad school studying the philosophy of science, and I don't believe this. It needs a citation from at least one historian of science who actually says it. user: Gene Ward Smith

 * Reponse to Gene Ward Smith:

 * The following phrase:

 * "basic science really did not become a true form of science" does not seem to be in any way explanatory, because 'basic science" and "true form of science" do not seem to be established as distinctive terms, such that they can be contrasted in the way implied.

 * However, if the sentiment intended to be expressed in that phrasing was that science reached some kind of special milestone of culturally accepted legitimacy in the second half of the 19th century, I think we would need to ask a science historian specialising in cultural and linguistic issues dating back from the sixteenth to the nineteenth century whether any such phenomenon manifested itself, and whether, if it did, it had any bearing on the transition of proto-science to science, or any bearing upon the respective usages of the terms 'natural philosophy' or 'science'. User:Ericross 21 Dec 2005

 * There are some historians of science who might make that milestone argument, but it would definitely be controversial enough that we shouldn't really be including it here. Science was gradually becoming more culturally significant, but I feel confident in saying that this was not strongly related to usage of the terms "natural philosophy" or "science."  I've done a fair bit of reading on 19th century (and some earlier) natural philosophy, and I can say that what fell under the rubric of "natural philosophy" is widely considered to be science by historians of science.  It should be noted that natural philosophy is not strictly the analog of science, but rather physics.  While cause-based biological investigations occasionally were called natural philosophy (as opposed to natural history), by the 18th century at least, natural philosophy meant what we call physics.  The change in naming happened in the mid-to-late 19th century, and the terms were interchangeable for a while.  And when the name change happened, that didn't mark any sudden change in the actual practice of the science; if Maxwell or Kelvin did science, then at least some natural philosophy was science (but what counted as natural philosophy changed considerably over the centuries).  I think you've made some positive changes to the article, Ericross.  Great job!  It could definitely go further, however, and it's a little too colloquial in places.--ragesoss 08:53, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Anyone interested in the 'transitional period' between proto-science and science needs to read Principe's 'The Aspiring Adept'.

 * The transition is not really 'proto-science to science' as all the glib popularisations would have us believe.

 * And 'Natural Philosophy' was neither a 'half-way house' on the journey, nor was it 'just a synonym for science'.

 * The whole transition is essentially an 'evolution not revolution'.

 * This comes as a shock to me, because I was taught that the stuff that preceded science was just a collection of superstition, charlatanry, speculation and unfounded nonsense which was suddenly abandoned in favour of a body of rigorous, disciplined and evidence based knowledge which at the time was called Natural Philosophy and is now called science.

 * The notion that this might have instead been a gradual process is perhaps a little difficult but by no means impossible to grasp.

 * The fact that there was a concerted effort by historians until very recently (especially by successions of biographers of the great 17th century figures of science) to paint the transition as sudden and total is a sin which has been disguised by subsequent historians labelling the 'transitional period' as being the period during which the subject of science was referred to as being 'Natural Philosophy', thus rescuing science from a much more painful admission, which is that those great figures who supposedly unequivocally abandoned such things as alchemy in favour of science, in fact never even considered abandoning alchemy.

 * Principe shows that what Boyle, as the first great writer to tackle Natural Philosophy and Alchemy together, far from recommending the abandonment of Alchemy and replacing it with Natural Philosophy, Boyle seeks to REFORM Alchemy not to abandon it.

 * So much for the scientific 'revolution'.

 * Biographers seeking to glorify their biographical subject were clearly embarrassed by the prospect of revealing any lingering connections with the 'old mumbo jumbo' and thus sought to excise such facts from the record. User:Ericross 27 Sept 2005

I agree the general point of the above comments. This entire article needs to be redone. "Natural Philosophy" has meant a lot of different things. Throughout most of the 19th century, the people we recognize as physicists called themselves natural philosophers (James Clerk Maxwell, for instance, and just about anyone before the mid-19th century). Natural Philosophy was a school subject, alongside chemistry and physiology. But many natural philosophers were doing experimental science. -User:Ragesoss 17 Dec 2005

 * The article was rewritten in response to the above. User:Ericross 21 Dec 2005

revival?
I'm unhappy at the section entitled revival describing the use of the natural philosophy term to cover creationism. The action appears to me rather to be crafty misappropiation! I did my science degree at a university where the original use is still carefully kept alive - and it wouldn't extend to covering the supernatural except as a critical footnote in history. Linuxlad 12:10, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Natural philosophy encompassed a lot of what we consider non-scientific today, including natural theology. And that section seems to make clear the problematic nature of said "revival" vis-a-vis modern science.  But it's relevance is also rather marginal, and I wouldn't object to the removal of that section.--ragesoss 20:15, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Since the term is being craftily misappropriated, something creationism is noted for. it should be explained here. Perhaps the title Revival is inappropriate: any ideas for improvements? A modern usage section could cover both uses, or something like "Use to redefine modern science" might be appropriate, subject to consideration of NPOV issues. Either way, when such usage is linked here the situation should be made clear to avoid giving unwarranted credibility to neo-creationist pseudoscience. ...dave souza, talk 20:35, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

More material has been added to the 'Revival' section which is apparently intended to further a creationist argument. Whatever its merits (or otherwise) it is out of context here - I suggest it be moved to a new article within the next week, after which the material in the revival section should be pruned to a first paragraph and a link out. Linuxlad 19:50, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The new addition clearly has POV problems, and verifiability may be an issue. Also, Philip Kitcher and Bertrand Russell have been added at some point with no explanation as to their relevance. The danger with moving this lot to a new article could be the creation of a POV fork, something to consider. ..dave souza, talk 20:57, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

compare to Philosophy of Nature article
Recently the Nature article was split and a major part of it was put onto an article called Philosophy of Nature. I tend to think the article should be re-named Nature (Philosophy), in this way we keep the material closer to it's intended use, and perhaps distinct from the present article? Or perhaps it should be merged to this article? --Andrew Lancaster 15:23, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Philosophy of nature should definitely not be merged here (and the see also at the top should probably be moved down to the regular see also; this article is only slightly more relevant than the rest of the see alsos). Given the content of the new fork, your renaming proposal seems logical.--ragesoss 17:31, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

This article needs much more emphasis on Aristotle! Aristotle was "the philosopher" in the Middle Ages and almost all science (i.e. natural philosophy) of the Middle Ages was in some way related to his legacy.

The Contemporary Scene?
How about a section on more recent revivals of natural philosophy? Two figures that deserve to be included (that I can think of off the top of my head) are Hans Jonas and Brian David Ellis. JKeck (talk) 23:49, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Also, please add something about what is meant by having a degree in Natural Philosophy? I have heard that Sir Muir Russel is a physicist but according to his Wikipedia page, he took first in Natural Philosophy at University of Glasgow. What is that degree if natural philosophy is a precursor to science but is no longer the term used to describe science?

Is it something like a BS Physics? Or more like a degree in Philosophy? 210.1.93.23 (talk) 04:29, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Problematic Distinction Between "Natural Philosophy" and "Science"
The most misleading part of this article is the suggestion that never and at no time in history was the term "natural philosophy" synonymous with our modern conception of "science."

This is simply not true. Sure, natural philosophy wasn't always the same thing as modern science, but a lot of fully mature science was done under the name of "natural philosophy."

I think omitting this explanation is just going to result in a heck of a lot of confused readers when, for example, they read Michael Faraday's famous Candle Lectures and see the sentence, "...there is no more open door by which you can enter natural philosophy than by considering the physical phenomenon of a candle." (Lecture 1, first paragraph). And so what will the reader think, that Faraday is making reference to "proto-science" rather than the fully mature science in which he made seminal breakthroughs?

I will consider making this alteration myself, but I can only do so to a limited extent since my history of the formative centuries of modern science is scant.--Scyldscefing (talk) 04:21, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

My two cents on the Problematic Distinction Between "Natural Philosophy" and "Science".
I see the distinction between natural philosophy and science as: anything you read in a science book preceded by "The Theory of" is natural philosophy, anything proceeded by "The Law of" is science. It was necessary long ago to tie the absolute of science to the highly likely of theory to get very logical natural philosophy such as Darwin's theory into the classroom past theist who believe everything came into existence in six days. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.151.248.4 (talk) 02:06, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

--That is absoloutely wrong. Theories in science are not simply guesses. Scientist hypothesize based on an initial consideration of known data and known science. Then they test those hypotheses. Hypotheses either become laws or theories depending on the nature of the hypothesis. Laws of science are simple mathematical statements which have been verified by many many experiments. For example F=Ma and E=Mc^2 are laws of science. In theories, on the other hand, the hypothesis is usually called a postulate. The consequences of the postulates of a theory are worked out mathematically into a number of hypothetical predictions. Each of those number of hypotheses must test true for a a hypothesized set of postulates to become a bonnified theory. So if anything Laws are science and theories are even more science! :) --2601:D:2A80:DFF:A9AE:5D5C:D27F:F06D (talk) 11:06, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Still in use until recently
The term “Natural Philosophy” was used as a synonym for “Physics” on an everyday basis at the University of Glasgow until at least the early 1980s. The main building that now houses the combined Department of Physics and Astronomy was referred to then as the “Nat Phil” building. And in Scottish high schools, a common text book for Ordinary Grade (O-Grade) Physics teaching was titled “Nat Phil ‘0’”. Physics graduates from Glasgow had the opportunity to have their degree registered as either Physics or Natural Philosophy. I’d add this to the article, but I have no sources other than my own direct experience. 70.112.38.105 (talk) 03:49, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes. The Department of Natural Philosophy and the Department of Astronomy at Glasgow University (where Kelvin was based) merged in the late 80s into the Department (now School) of Physics and Astronomy, and I think the name of the degree was changed at the same time from Nat. Phil. to Physics, with the change of name of both the department and the degree motivated in part by the difficulty of explaining to, eg, employers, just what 'Nat. Phil.' meant. There is still a chair of 'Natural Philosophy' (see eg Sheila Rowan and Professor of Natural Philosophy (Glasgow)). I don't have an online link for any of this, but I suspect that The University of Glasgow : 1451-2001 (A.L. Brown and Michael Moss, 2001, ISBN 9780748608713) will have details. NormanGray (talk) 19:04, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

The addition of Taoism.
I have included links to Taoist traditions, as we know their history with natuural science and medicine. Shenqijing (talk) 10:15, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

An Evaluation of the Article
This article has plenty of good and accurate information, I think there are parts in this article that could be expanded upon like the Section on Scope: There could be a section describing some of the thoughts that natural philosophers had about the world such as inventions to help the make measurements of the planet, cosmos, and even materials that make up these things. Orcandiver (talk) 16:46, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

"physics (Aristotle)" link in introduction
Not only does it read strange – if it is supposed to mean "physics in the Aristotelian sense," it should be written as "physics (in an Aristotelian sense)" or similar rather than just "physics (Aristotle)" – but it also links to the page for the work "Physics" by Aristotle, making it seem as if natural philosophy is the study of said work, which it most certainly is not.

Therefore, I suggest these two changes: 1. Editing the first sentence of the introduction so that it says: "Natural philosophy or philosophy of nature (from Latin philosophia naturalis) is the philosophical study of physics (in the Aristotelian sense), that is, nature and the physical universe." 2. Making "physics (in the Aristotelian sense)" link onto https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics_(Aristotle)#The_meaning_of_physics_in_Aristotle

Please let me know what you think about these suggestions. I will think it over and may edit it if none object.

Thank you, Hven Petrowicz Hven Petrowicz (talk) 10:54, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Alternatively, it could link onto: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotelian_physics

Let me know your thoughts.

Thank you, Hven Petrowicz Hven Petrowicz (talk) 12:46, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Alternatively, it could read as "physics (in an Aristotelian sense)

Let me know your opinions.

Thank you, Hven Petrowicz Hven Petrowicz (talk) 16:44, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Natural philosophy


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User talk:Blackboxes

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Coombe, Gloucestershire

Coombe is a settlement in the English county of Gloucestershire. It is adjacent to the town of Wotton-under-Edge. The town name can also be found spelled C-o-m-b-e

title: Coombe, Gloucestershire


text:
User talk:Duffman~enwiki

Rv vandals
When you see some vandalism, you can easily revert it by going to the given article history tab, seeing what was damaged, and copying/pastying it into the damaged section, thus restoring it. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 21:22, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Indoor Field Hockey vs Innebandy
I removed your link from Indoor field hockey to no:Innebandy, because it is not the same game. What is described as "Indoor field hockey" is a sport (as mentionned) similar to "Field hockey". It is played with smaller sticks, made of wood, bigger goal-cages, only one side of the stick is allowed to touch the ball, ... The english name for "Innebandy" seems to be "Floorball". Lvr 09:52, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Great, I noticed that someone corrected it on the Norwegian wikipedia, but I forgot to correct it here. Thanks! --Duffman 09:54, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Need your vote
Would you mind voting on this issue? Votes for deletion/German military occupation of Norway during World War II--Leifern 19:12, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission
A tag has been placed on Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person or group of people, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is notable: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not indicate the subject's importance or significance may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable, as well as our subject-specific notability guideline for biographies.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding  to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the article does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that a copy be emailed to you. — Yavoh 19:04, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Lunar_Roving_Vehicle Delist and replace
Hey Duffman, A featured picutre which you upload has been nominated for delisting and replacement. I did a little clean on and I have nominated the original for delisting and to be replacing with a corrected version at FPC here. Id be grateful if you could take a look and see if there is an improvement. Seddσn talk 11:00, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Your account will be renamed
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Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Duffman. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Duffman~enwiki that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name. If you think you might own all of the accounts with this name and this message is in error, please visit Special:MergeAccount to check and attach all of your accounts to prevent them from being renamed.

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Renamed
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ArbCom elections are now open!
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title: User talk:Duffman~enwiki


text: User talk:68.37.146.140

title: User talk:68.37.146.140


text:
Cluster & Eno

Cluster & Eno is a collaborative album by German electronic music group Cluster and English ambient musician Brian Eno. The style of this album is a collection of gentle melodies: a mixture of Eno's ambient sensibilities and Cluster's avant-garde style.

In June 1977, the duo of Hans-Joachim Roedelius and Dieter Moebius joined with Brian Eno for recording sessions at Conny Plank's studio. The first release from those sessions on Sky Records was Cluster & Eno. Guest musicians on the album included Can bassist Holger Czukay and Asmus Tietchens on synthesizer. The association with Eno, already well known for involvement with pop acts like Roxy Music, brought Cluster a much wider audience than previous albums and international attention.

Sky Records issued the album on CD in 1989, shuffling the running order. The American Gyroscope label reissued Cluster & Eno on CD in 1996. The album was also reissued in the United States by the San Francisco–based Water label in 2005.

Reception
Bryan Reesman, in his editorial review for Amazon, writes, in part: "Meshing Cluster's affinity for loops and repetition and Eno's penchant for processing sounds, the trio proves that ambient music does not merely consist of drawn-out drones and insipid keyboard tapestries. Certainly many of these nine tracks play off of sustained sounds and atmospheres, but their shorter running times make them more digestible, as does their variety of moods and textures. Highlights include the angelic atmosphere of 'Für Luise,' the classically inspired piano interlude 'Mit Samaen,' and the Indian-influenced 'One,' a trippy progenitor of ethnoambient music, ripe with sitar drones, guitar noises, and exotic percussion that features contributions from Okko Becker and Asmus Tietchens."

Track listing
All songs composed by Brian Eno, Dieter Moebius and Hans-Joachim Roedelius.
 * 1) "Ho Renomo" – 5:07
 * 2) "Schöne Hände" – 3:03
 * 3) "Steinsame" – 4:06
 * 4) "Wehrmut" – 5:01
 * 5) "Mit Simaen" – 1:30
 * 6) "Selange" – 3:30
 * 7) "Die Bunge" – 3:45
 * 8) "One" – 6:06
 * 9) "Für Luise" – 3:20

Some editions have the track names "Wehrmut" and "Für Luise" swapped.

Personnel

 * Hans-Joachim Roedelius
 * Dieter Moebius
 * Brian Eno

Additional musicians
 * Holger Czukay – bass on "Ho Renomo"
 * Okko Bekker – guitar on "One"
 * Asmus Tietchens – synthesizer on "One"

Technical personnel
 * Conny Plank – engineer
 * J. Krämer – assistant engineer
 * Cluster – cover

title: Cluster & Eno


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User:VeryVerily/Proposed policy changes

This page lists various ideas I have for changes in handling and policy of Wikipedia based on my long experience as a contributor here.

Be bold in updating pages
This advice should be gotten rid of or greatly abridged. It may have been true when Wikipedia was a small community and hurting for articles and material that new user shyness would only inhibit growth, but that is no longer the case.

In fact, I've seen many new users invest a lot of time into editing and updating pages, only to have their edits immediately erased because of problems they couldn't foresee: the article was good enough before, the points in question had been discussed in the past, and so on. Such new users may decide that work here is a waste of time and quit.

Much more productive would be encouraging them to contribute new material. That will provide a better experience than updating articles, which often is like wandering blind into a minefield.

Stable versions
Occasionally the matter comes up of wanting to find and keep stable versions of pages. There are various reasons for this:

 * A CD or paper copy of Wikipedia. Which versions of articles will we use?  A few vandalized ones will invariably slip through, and many will be in some shellshocked or half-done state.

 * Effort wasted. Users often put a lot of time into streamlining text, crafting flow, organizing facts, and so on.  The next editor, however well-intentioned, can muck all this up.

 * POV editing. Articles which are POV magnets often stand unguarded.  While the community looks away an article may be invisibly ruined.  High profile examples such as George W. Bush aren't the problem; minor ones such as Kazakhstan or Porsche might inspire passions in a tiny minority of editors.

 * Controversial issues. Often an issue is the subject of endless conflict and edit wars.  Only after considerable intervention and effort is some delicate, careful compromise reached which makes all sides if not happy then content.  But the next editor will show up, toss in their POV, and it all has to happen again.

The solutions I have seen proposed for this all fall short.

 * Restricting who can edit; ban IPs, require certification for users, and so on. But this risks scaring off curious newbies, stunting our growth, and losing all those minor fixes.  Also, interwiki links might be much harder to maintain.

 * Declaring articles done. It must be the rare article which will never need updating, never be susceptible to improvement.  Current events and discoveries too often deserve note.  Like the last proposal, this is too un-Wiki.

 * Clipped versions, i.e., have some version be "paperclipped" as the last stable version, which can then be linked to prominently. But who decides?  And, also, minor fixes are often made which are uncontroversial and improve the article, yet which wouldn't be clipped without another "certification" process.

Here's my proposal:

An article (or part of an article, like a section) will have a "state" associated with it. That state will describe what stage of development the article is in, and then anyone that tries to edit it will be given a suitable message for that state. Major edits to an article in an advanced state without good prior justification would be subject to quick reverting, but the editor would be warned of this. To illustrate, here are some possible states:

 * Outline. The article is fairly new, only broadly outlined, and very incomplete.  Substantial new additions and reorganizations are very welcome.

 * Mature. The article is well put together and has most important information.  But it could no doubt use further improvement, restructuring, NPOVing, etc.

 * Stable. The article is basically done.  It's been written up, gone over by several editors, streamlined, formatted, and copyedited.  There may be bits of information missing and inaccurate, but one should tread carefully when disturbing existing text, and justify any serious changes in Talk and probably solicit responses before making them.

 * Superstable. The article (or hopefully just part of it) was the site of much contention.  Its present state represents the endpoint of a long process of negotiation among strong POVs.  Disturbing it is quite risky, and anything that might break the balance could be justifiably immediately reverted.

Okay, the questions now. Who determines the article's state? We could require an outside impartial observer, but also we could do it the wiki way: someone could declare something stable (or whatever), and if they're clearly wrong, another would change it back. This shouldn't be too troublesome as it should generally be clear what its state is (and "state wars" if they existed would likely only be proxies for edit wars which would happen anyway).

How to implement? There could be a software solution, where articles or sections carry a tag, and the edit screen carries the warning. Or it could just be a Wiki directive in the text: state:Superstable. Or it could even be implemented in a low-tech fashion, say with embedded , perhaps created with , that would cause the relevant warning message to appear in the edit box.

This by itself does not address the one issue of vandalism in the paper copy, nor does it give how stable articles would be watched. For that, perhaps a warning system that flagged edits to stable or superstable articles could exist alongside Recentchanges and be patrolled. The paper copy would take these articles which are verified undamaged.

Comments?
Please direct comments to the talk page.

title: User:VeryVerily/Proposed policy changes


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aaron Walters

Aaron Walters
Non notable. Needless to say, Google doesn't turn up anything relevant that relates to the text of the entry. Zachlipton 00:12, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete, suggest speedy. Ian Pugh 00:26, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * So long, Aaron. Delete. Wyllium 00:55, 2004 Oct 20 (UTC)
 * Delete. These things should be speedy deleted.. Nadavspi 01:27, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Speedy Delete. utcursch 10:48, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete: By rule, these can't be speedy deleted. We can either change the rules to meet the practice or the practice to meet the rules.  I made my effort.  People thought I wanted Sysops to get more power.  Good luck to all other reformers.Geogre 15:16, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * That's fine, just so long as it's gone soon. I just wasn't sure if this constituted as patent nonsense. I suppose since there's at least one coherent sentence, it doesn't apply. Oh well. Ian Pugh 23:25, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Newbie test pages can also be speedy deleted, can't they? - Mike Rosoft 21:00, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Newbie test page. Not encycplopedic. Delete. - Mike Rosoft 21:00, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Agreed: Speedy deleted by me for being a test page and for having had more than 72 hr on VfD with a unanimous delete vote. Geogre 21:42, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)


text:
Coombe, Hampshire

Coombe is a village in Hampshire, England.

Location
Coombe is located at

title: Coombe, Hampshire


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J. I. Packer

James Innell Packer (22 July 1926 –17 July 2020) was an English-born Canadian evangelical theologian, cleric and writer in the low-church Anglican and Calvinist traditions. Having been considered as one of the most influential evangelicals in North America, Packer is known for his 1973 best-selling book Knowing God, along with his work as the general editor of the English Standard Version Bible. He was one of the high-profile signers on the 1978 Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy, a member on the advisory board of the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, and also was involved in the ecumenical book Evangelicals and Catholics Together in 1994. His last teaching position was as the board of governors' Professor of Theology at Regent College in Vancouver, British Columbia, in which he served from 1996 until his retirement in 2016 due to failing eyesight.

Life and career
Packer was born on 22 July 1926 in Twyning, Gloucestershire, England to James and Dorothy Packer. His sister, Margaret, was born in 1929. His father was a clerk for the Great Western Railway and his lower-middle-class family was only nominally Anglican, attending the local St. Catherine's Church. When he was seven, Packer suffered a severe head injury in a collision with a bread van, which precluded him from playing sports, so he became interested in reading and writing. At 11 years of age, Packer was gifted with an old Oliver typewriter. He went on to cherish typewriters for the rest of his life. In 1937, Packer went to The Crypt School, where he specialized in the classics. At age 14 he was confirmed at St. Catherine's church.

He won a scholarship to the University of Oxford, where he was educated at Corpus Christi College, obtaining his Bachelor of Arts degree in 1948. In a 1944 meeting of the Oxford Inter-Collegiate Christian Union (OICCU), Packer committed his life to Christian service. It was during this time that Packer became exposed to the Puritans through OICCU's library, which were an influence he carried for the rest of his life. He also first heard lectures from C. S. Lewis at Oxford, whose teachings would (though he never knew Lewis personally) become a major influence in his life.

After college, he spent a brief time teaching Greek and Latin at Oak Hill College in London. During this 1949–1950 school year, he sat under the teaching of Martyn Lloyd-Jones at Westminster Chapel, who also would have a great influence on his thinking, and who he would know and interact with later. In 1949, Packer went back to Wycliffe Hall, Oxford, in 1949 to study theology. He obtained his Master of philosophy degree in 1954, and Doctor of Philosophy in 1954. He wrote his dissertation under Geoffrey Nuttall on the soteriology of the Puritan theologian Richard Baxter. He was ordained a deacon in 1952 and priest in 1953 in the Church of England, within which he was associated with the evangelical movement. He served as assistant curate of Harborne Heath in Birmingham from 1952 to 1954. In 1954, Packer married Kit Mullet, and they had three children, Ruth, Naomi, and Martin.

In 1955, his family moved to Bristol and Packer taught at Tyndale Hall, Bristol, from 1955 to 1961. He wrote an article denouncing Keswick theology as Pelagian in the Evangelical Quarterly. According to biographer Alister McGrath, it is widely agreed that his critique "marked the end of the dominance of the Keswick approach among younger evangelicals". It was also during this time that he published his first book, Fundamentalism and the Word of God (1958), a defense of the authority of the Bible, which sold 20,000 copies in that year and has been in print since. Packer moved back to Oxford in 1961, where he served as librarian of Latimer House in Oxford from 1961 to 1962 and warden from 1962 to 1969, an evangelical research centre he founded with John Stott. In 1970, he became principal of Tyndale Hall, Bristol, and from 1971 until 1979 he was associate principal of the newly formed Trinity College, Bristol, which had been formed from the amalgamation of Tyndale Hall with Clifton College and Dalton House-St Michael's. He became editor of the Evangelical Quarterly in the 1960s, and eventually published a series of articles he wrote in the journal into a book, Knowing God. The book, published by Hodder & Stoughton in Britain and InterVarsity Press in the United States in 1973, became a bestseller of international fame and sold over 1.5 million copies. In 1977, he signed the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy.

In 1979, one of Packer's Oxford friends persuaded him to teach at Regent College in Vancouver, eventually being named the first Sangwoo Youtong Chee Professor of Theology, a title he held until he was named a Regent College Board of Governors' Professor of Theology in 1996. At Regent he taught many classes, including systematic theology and the Puritans.

He was a prolific writer and frequent lecturer, and a frequent contributor to and an executive editor of Christianity Today. Packer served as general editor of the English Standard Version (ESV), an evangelical translation based upon the Revised Standard Version of the Bible, and theological editor of the ESV Study Bible.

Packer was associated with St. John's Shaughnessy Anglican Church, which in February 2008 voted to schism from the Anglican Church of Canada over the issue of same-sex blessings. The departing church, St. John's Vancouver, joined the Anglican Network in Canada (ANiC). Packer, on 23 April, handed in his licence from the Bishop of New Westminster. (ANiC eventually co-founded and joined the Anglican Church in North America in 2009.) In December 2008, Packer was appointed an honorary clerical canon of St Andrew's Cathedral in Sydney in recognition of his long and distinguished ministry as a faithful teacher of biblical theology.

Packer had been the theologian emeritus of the Anglican Church in North America (ACNA) since its creation in 2009, being one of the nine members of the task force who wrote on a trial basis Texts for Common Prayer, released in 2013, and general editor of the task force who wrote for trial use To Be a Christian: An Anglican Catechism, approved on 8 January 2014 by the College of Bishops of the church. He was awarded the St. Cuthbert's Cross at the Provincial Assembly of ACNA on 27 June 2014 by retiring Archbishop Robert Duncan for his "unparalleled contribution to Anglican and global Christianity".

In 2016, Packer's eyesight deteriorated due to macular degeneration to a point where he could no longer read or write, consequently concluding his public ministry.

Packer died on 17 July 2020, five days before his 94th birthday.

Inerrancy
He signed the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy, affirming the conservative evangelical position on biblical inerrancy.

Gender roles
Packer was a complementarian and served on the advisory board of the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. He thus subscribed to a view of gender roles such that a husband should lovingly lead, protect and provide for his wife and that a wife should joyfully affirm and submit to her husband's leadership. Complementarians also believe the Bible teaches that men are to bear primary responsibility to lead in the church and that as such only men should be elders. In 1991 Packer set forth his reasons for this in an influential yet controversial article called "Let's Stop Making Women Presbyters".

Calvinism
Packer held to the soteriological position known as Calvinism.

Evolution
Packer endorsed and supported books that have advocated for theistic evolution, but also expressed caution towards the validity of evolution.

Ecumenism
In recent years, he had supported the ecumenical movement, which drew criticism from other evangelicals. Specifically, Packer's involvement in the book Evangelicals and Catholics Together: Toward a Common Mission (ECT) was sharply criticised, but he defended ECT by arguing that believers should set aside denominational differences for the sake of winning converts to Christianity.

Packer took the side of evangelical ecumenism in opposition to Martyn Lloyd-Jones in 1966, then co-authored a work with two Anglo-Catholics in 1970 (Growing into Union) that many evangelicals felt conceded too much biblical ground on critical doctrinal issues. The publication of that work led to the formal break between Lloyd-Jones and Packer, bringing an end to the Puritan Conferences.

Works

 * Fundamentalism and the Word of God (1958; reprinted 1984) ISBN 0-8028-1147-7
 * Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God (1961 by Inter-Varsity Fellowship) (reprinted 1991) ISBN 0-8308-1339-X
 * Our Lord's Understanding of the Law of God (1962)
 * The Church of England and the Methodist Church: Ten Essays (1963)
 * God Speaks To Man: Revelation and the Bible (1965)
 * Tomorrow's Worship (1966) ISBN 978-0851900360
 * Guidelines: Anglican Evangelicals Face the Future (1967) ISBN 978-0854918027
 * Knowing God (1973, reprinted 1993) ISBN 0-8308-1650-X
 * What did the Cross Achieve? The Logic of Penal Substitution (1974)
 * I Want To Be A Christian (1977) ISBN 978-0-8423-1842-6
 * The Ten Commandments (1977) ISBN 978-0-8423-7004-2
 * The Evangelical Anglican Identity Problem: An Analysis (1978) ISBN 978-0-946307-00-5
 * The New Man (1978) ISBN 978-0-8028-1768-6
 * For Man's Sake! (1978) ISBN 978-0-85364-217-6
 * Knowing Man (1979) ISBN 978-0891071754
 * God Has Spoken (1979) ISBN 978-0-87784-656-7
 * Beyond the Battle for the Bible (1980) ISBN 978-0-89107-195-2
 * Freedom and Authority (1981: International Council on Biblical Inerrancy) ISBN 978-1573830355
 * A Kind of Noah's Ark? : The Anglican Commitment to Comprehensiveness (1981) ISBN 978-0-946307-09-8
 * God's Words: Studies of Key Bible Themes (1981) ISBN 978-0-87784-367-2
 * Freedom, Authority and Scripture (1982) ISBN 978-0-85110-445-4
 * Keep In Step With The Spirit: Finding Fullness In Our Walk With God (1984, reprinted 2005) ISBN 0-8010-6558-5
 * The Thirty-Nine Articles: Their Place and Use Today (1984) ISBN 978-0946307562
 * Through the Year with J. I. Packer (1986) ISBN 978-0-340-40141-5
 * Hot Tub Religion (1987) ISBN 978-0-8423-1854-9
 * Laid-back Religion?: A penetrating look at Christianity today (1989) ISBN 978-0-8511-0799-8
 * Among God's Giants: Aspects of Puritan Christianity (1991) ISBN 978-0-86065-452-0
 * A Passion for Holiness (1992) ISBN 1-85684-043-3
 * Rediscovering Holiness (1992) ISBN 0-89283-734-9
 * Concise Theology: A Guide to Historic Christian Beliefs (1993) ISBN 0-8423-3960-4
 * A Quest for Godliness: The Puritan Vision of the Christian Life (1994) ISBN 0-89107-819-3
 * Knowing Christianity (1995) ISBN 978-0-87788-058-5
 * A Passion for Faithfulness: Wisdom from the Book of Nehemiah (1995) ISBN 978-0-89107-733-6
 * Decisions – Finding God's Will: 6 Studies for Individuals or Groups (1996) ISBN 978-0-85111-376-0
 * Truth & Power: The Place of Scripture in the Christian Life (1996) ISBN 978-0-87788-815-4
 * Life in the Spirit (1996) ISBN 978-0-340-64174-3
 * Meeting God (2001) ISBN 978-1-85999-480-1
 * God's Plans for You (2001) ISBN 978-1-58134-290-1
 * Divine Sovereignty and Human Responsibility (2002)
 * Faithfulness and Holiness: The Witness of J. C. Ryle (2002) ISBN 978-1-58134-358-8
 * The Redemption and Restoration of Man in the Thought of Richard Baxter (2003, based on his 1954 Oxford dissertation) ISBN 1-57383-174-3
 * Knowing God Through The Year (2004) ISBN 978-0-8308-3292-7
 * 18 Words: The Most Important Words You Will Ever Know (2007) ISBN 978-1845503277
 * Praying the Lord's Prayer (2007) ISBN 978-1-58134-963-4
 * Affirming the Apostles' Creed (2008) ISBN 978-1-4335-0210-1
 * Weakness Is the Way: Life with Christ Our Strength (2013) ISBN 978-1433563836
 * Finishing Our Course With Joy  (2014) ISBN 978-1-4335-4106-3

In the Anglican Agenda series

 * Taking Faith Seriously (2006) ISBN 978-0-9781653-0-7
 * Taking Doctrine Seriously (2007) ISBN 978-1-897538-00-5
 * Taking Repentance Seriously (2007) ISBN 978-0-9781653-4-5
 * Taking Christian Unity Seriously (2007) ISBN 978-0-9781653-6-9

Collections

 * The J. I. Packer Collection, edited by Alister McGrath (1999) ISBN 978-0-8308-2287-4
 * Collected Shorter Writings of J. I. Packer
 * Volume 1: Celebrating the Saving Work of God (1998) ISBN 978-0-85364-896-3
 *  Volume 2: Serving the People of God (1998) ISBN 978-0-85364-904-5
 * Volume 3: Honouring the Written Word of God (1999) ISBN 978-0-85364-882-6
 * Volume 4: Honouring the People of God (1999) ISBN 978-0-85364-905-2

Co-authored

 * The Spirit Within You: The Church's Neglected Possession with Alan Stibbs (1979) ISBN 978-0-8010-8142-2
 * The Bible Almanac with Merrill C. Tenney and William White (1980) ISBN 978-0-8407-5162-1
 * Christianity: The True Humanism with Thomas Howard (1985) ISBN 1-57383-058-5
 * New Dictionary of Theology with Sinclair B Ferguson and David F Wright (1988) ISBN 978-0-8308-1400-8
 * Knowing and Doing the Will of God with LaVonne Neff (1995) ISBN 978-0-89283-927-8
 * Great Power with Beth Feia (1997) ISBN 978-0-85476-836-3
 * Great Grace with Beth Feia (1997) ISBN 978-0-85476-837-0
 * Great Joy with Beth Feia (1999) ISBN 978-0-85476-838-7
 * Never Beyond Hope: How God Touches and Uses Imperfect People with Carolyn Nystrom (2000) ISBN 978-0-8308-2232-4
 * Knowing God Journal with Carolyn Nystrom (2000) ISBN 978-0-8308-1185-4
 * J. I. Packer Answers Questions for Today with Wendy Murray Zoba (2001) ISBN 978-0-8423-3615-4
 * Hope, Never Beyond Hope: Six Studies for Individuals or Groups with Leader's Notes with Carolyn Nystrom (2003) ISBN 978-0-85111-355-5
 * One Faith: The Evangelical Consensus with Thomas Oden (2004) ISBN 0-8308-3239-4
 * Battle for the Soul of Canada: Raising up the Emerging Generation of Leaders (2006) ISBN 978-0-9782022-0-0
 * Praying: Finding Our Way Through Duty To Delight with Carolyn Nystrom (2006) ISBN 978-0-8308-3345-0
 * Guard Us, Guide Us: Divine Leading in Life's Decisions with Carolyn Nystrom (2008) ISBN 978-0-8010-1303-4
 * In My Place Condemned He Stood: Celebrating the Glory of the Atonement with Mark Dever (2008) ISBN 978-1-4335-0200-2

title: J. I. Packer


text:
User talk:Smegpt86

Welcome to the Wikipedia
Here are some links I thought useful:

 * Tutorial
 * Help desk
 * Policy Library
 * Utilities
 * Cite your sources
 * Verifiability
 * Wikiquette
 * Civility
 * Conflict resolution
 * Brilliant prose
 * Neutral point of view
 * Pages needing attention
 * Peer review
 * Bad jokes and other deleted nonsense
 * Village pump
 * Boilerplate text
 * IRC channel
 * Mailing lists
 * Current polls

Feel free to ask me anything the links and talk pages don't answer. You can sign your name by typing 4 tildes, like this: ~.

Be Bold!

Sam [Spade] 00:13, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:Smegpt86


text:
Coombe, Kent

Coombe is a settlement in the English county of Kent. It lies between Ash-next-Sandwich and Woodnesborough.

According to Edward Hasted in 1800, it was a hamlet in the western section of the parish of Woodnesborough.

Coombe Lane passes through the small settlement between Ash towards New Street (heading to Woodnesborough). Coombe Lane Cottage is a Grade II Listed cottage on the lane.

Etymology
The village's name derives from Ancient Celtic cumbā "valley" which was taken into Old English. The name was recorded as æt cumban in 1005, the first word æt representing 'at'.

title: Coombe, Kent


text: Talk:Pat's King of Steaks

title: Talk:Pat's King of Steaks


text:
Talk:Pretty on the Inside

"Grunge" genre
Even on Hole's main page, the term "grunge" is constantly being listed as a genre and as one of the band's stand-out styles. The same goes for Pretty on the Inside and Live Through This, as well as some singles and EPs and the term — which is an incorrect term to use anyway — is being thrown around and used loosely.

As much as some critics consider Hole to be a "grunge" band or at the very least, part of the grunge movement itself, the fact is the band were not either. Considering "grunge" as a genre, there's a number of arguements to evidently show that this record, and the band itself, were not a "grunge" band:

 * Not once did the band as a whole — or an individual member — refer to the band as being "grunge."
 * The band were not inspired by grunge aesthetics/dynamics, even though they shared mutual influence on a number of bands.
 * This record — as described by members of the band in interviews — was not intended to produce a "grunge" sound or become part of the grunge scene.
 * Hole's sound is based on simple alternative rock, which is the solid structure of all four studio albums, however, "grunge" music — though it was an influence on Live Through This — did not play a significant role in this album or any of their studio albums. No wave/contemporary punk rock influenced Pretty on the Inside, not "grunge" music and "grunge" certainly wasn't the final product.

Hence, "grunge" is an incorrect term for either Hole's style or genre and more specifically, Pretty on the Inside's style/genre, and a lazy way of generalizing any album related to someone related to someone else related to someone else who was considered part of the grunge movement or as having a "grunge" band. I would then suggest that "grunge" stop being listed as a genre and a more accurate description of its main genre (alternative rock) and subgenre (punk rock) be listed, in order to give the reader a more broad and correct description of the album's sound. Idiotchalk (talk) 10:40, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Just because a band didn't say they were grunge doesn't mean they aren't. My Chemical Romance, as awful as the band is, are labeled emo, even though they deny it.-- F-22 Raptör Aces High ♠ 21:08, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

That responds to one of my points, not all of them and certainly isn't enough to list an album's genre as something it's not. Not to mention that the Allmusic page you used as a reference for "grunge" also classifies the album as "pop rock" and that the Sputnikmusic page is a fan-written review. The fact of the matter is that it's not my POV that the album is not grunge, it's fact. And not to be the Devil's Advocate or play you at your own, but isn't classifying the album as "grunge" very POV of you? I don't mean to sound snotty, but I'd appreciate it if you could disprove my other listed points. Idiotchalk (talk) 22:30, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

 * Grunge is desribed, according to Wikipedia, which I feel the description is accurate enough "Inspired by hardcore punk, heavy metal and indie rock, grunge is generally characterized by heavily distorted electric guitars, contrasting song dynamics, and apathetic or angst-filled lyrics." Hole are punk-influenced, yes, but their sound are not a full punk aesthetic. Go on their last.fm page, grunge is their dominant genre, and this is tens of thousands of people labeling these bands, you're practically the first person NOT calling them grunge, and don't tell me it's a fact, all genre arguments turn out to be subjective and a matter of opinion. My sources along with my agreement on their grunge status dominate your unsourced POVish theory on the band.-- F-22 Raptör Aces High ♠ 00:56, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Plus obvious grunge band Alice in Chains openly said they disliked being called grunge. Are they still grunge? Yes. Since when do bands get to decide themselves what genre they're called? --Mrmoustache14 (talk) 03:22, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Just wanted to say, really well written article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.135.52.251 (talk) 22:24, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Song name
The name is originally misspelled "Garbadge Man". That's the way it's featured in the back cover and registered in BMI. Check it out and see.

I will probably be removing the "Garbadge Man" information from the Trivia section in order to clean it up and follow Wikipedia guidelines about Trivia sections, since there is a full article on "Garbadge Man" now. --74.34.68.224 (talk) 01:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I edited out the "Garbadge Man" info because it's in the article for the song. --74.34.68.224 (talk) 02:57, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Unreliable sources
I've added the unreliable source template. A lot of these sources seem to be taken from blogs and fan pages that would fail WP:RS. Andrzejbanas (talk) 01:01, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I have removed two sources from blogs/fansites, but I can't spot any others. Is that all? Scottdoesntknow (talk) 06:25, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi, yes there are still a few:
 * appears to be a fansite,
 * I'm not sure about that rockonthenet site as I can't find any information about how that websites information is sourced or who it was written by.
 * The last part of the second paragraph in composition (about the sonic youth influence) isn't cited.
 * Otherwise I think it's okay. :) Andrzejbanas (talk) 15:19, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I removed the RockOnTheNet source, since it already had another to back it up, and I cited the Sonic Youth influence. I left the Monochrom site as a citation, because it is a webzine publication; however, I backed it up with two other sources from books, so that it is supported by more "official" sources. Thank you for the help! Scottdoesntknow (talk) 21:32, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

GA Review
Any chance anyone is willing to review this for GA status? I've worked a ton on it, and I think it's just about near perfection. I'm looking to get it to FA status. Scottdoesntknow (talk) 03:00, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Nominating for FA status
I have contributed a lot to this article and believe that it is comprehensive and well-written enough to make featured article status. I nominated it as a candidate and hope that editors will consider and look it over. Scottdoesntknow (talk) 21:31, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Anyone wanna nominate this for Featured Article status?
I tried in the past but it didn't get promoted, but I think the quality of this article is on-par with FA status. I'd like to see someone else give it a shot. Scottdoesntknow (talk) 08:05, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Reference review
Idiotchalk said he was looking to submit this as a Featured Article Candidate, so to start of I took a look at the references. Firstly, they need to be standardized and cleaned up--I see very different date formats, titles lacking italics, and uncapitalized words in titles.

The following references are questionable. Idiotchalk, please establish why these citations are reliable sources, per WP:RS:

 * "Pretty on the Inside by Hole". iTunes. Retrieved August 9, 2011
 * Pelliccia, Nicole (8 October 2008). "Hole". Teen Scene Magazine. Retrieved 29 December 2011. (The link is dead as well)
 * "Artists: Hole". Rock On The Net. Retrieved 13 September 2011.
 * Mejia, Victoria. "Inger Lorre". The Plague. Retrieved 19 April 2011.
 * "VICKI BERNDT «". Rocket Surgey Webzine. April 16, 2012. Retrieved April 19, 2012.
 * "Smashing Pumpkins / Hole - 1991". Flickr. 19 December 1991. Retrieved 13 September 2011.
 * "Upcoming Releases". Insound. Retrieved 5 June 2011.
 * "HOLE - PRETTY ON THE INSIDE (180g LP)". Music Direct. Retrieved 6 June 2011.
 * Granger, Kevin (24 May 2011). "Courtney Love Photo Gallery Text: Biography". The Fix. Retrieved 11 August 2011.
 * "Hole at Terminal 5 NYC April 27, 2010". Media Decay. 27 April 2010. Retrieved 27 March 2011.

Also, remove any YouTube links that aren't the property of the uploader and anything that sources IMDB, Discogs, or any similar user-based site. Also, reconsider ''Who Killed Kurt Cobain? The Mysterious Death of an Icon'', which is a ... questionable source, to say the least. WesleyDodds (talk) 11:38, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

title: Talk:Pretty on the Inside


text:
Coombe, Kingston upon Thames

Coombe is a historic neighbourhood in the Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames in south west London, England. It sits on high ground, east of Norbiton. Most of the area was part of the former Municipal Borough of Malden and Coombe before local government re-organisation in 1965. It now shares borders with the boroughs of Merton and Sutton with, to the north, the small, inter-related neighbourhoods of Kingston Hill and Kingston Vale, beyond which is Richmond Park in Richmond; and Roehampton/Putney Vale in Wandsworth. To the east are public playing fields and Wimbledon Common.

History
Coombe centres on what was originally Coombe House, a large residence built in the 1750s. The house, now demolished, was located at the southwest corner of the junction of Coombe Lane (A238) and Traps Lane. Its red brick boundary walls can still be seen on the west side of Traps Lane.

The area has a long history. Roman coins and other ancient remains have been found in the area around Warren Road. Coombe appears in the Domesday Book of 1086 as Cumbe. It was held partly by Hunfrid (Humfrey) the Chamberlain and partly by Ansgot the Interpreter. Its domesday assets were: 1½ hides; 4 ploughs, 12 acre of meadow, herbage worth 4 hogs. It rendered £8.

The Neville name has long been associated with the area. In 1215 King John gave Coombe to Hugh de Nevill, and the area was known as Coombe Nevill by 1260. At the beginning of the 14th century the manor was held by William de Nevill. The 1911 Ordnance Survey map identified an estate known as Coombe Nevile at the junction of George and Warren Roads. The present-day cul-de-sac known as Coombe Neville is at the same location. Neville Avenue is a short distance away, south of Coombe Lane.

16th-century records speak of a gallows in Coombe, most likely near what is now Kingsnympton Park estate, reputedly the scene of public executions.

In the early 1700s a public house known as the Fox and Coney was established at the junction of George Road and Kingston Hill (A308). It was rebuilt in 1728 and soon thereafter was renamed the George and Dragon, operating as such until 1985, when it became the Kingston Lodge Hotel.

By 1761 Coombe was owned by John Spencer, 1st Earl Spencer.

Coombe Warren was a wild woodland on the ridge known as Coombe Hill. It was used for hunting and public fairs. 'The Coombe Wood Highwayman', Jerry Abershaw, frequented the area in the late 1700s. Being based at the "Bald Face Stag" pub, he sheltered in the woods. An 1835 map placed Coombe Warren in an area now bisected by Warren Road between Kingston Hill (A308) and Coombe Lane (A238). Portions of the Warren are now covered by the Coombe Hill estate and Coombe Wood Golf Course.

In 1822 the Admiralty opened a semaphore station in the Warren, which was part of the semaphore line from London to Portsmouth. The station has disappeared, but survived in the name of "Telegraph Cottage."

At the time of the 1865 Ordnance Survey, the area west of Warren Road remained largely open country. By 1911 two golf courses were in place, as were a number of large houses located along George Road, including Coombe Croft briefly home to John Galsworthy's family, (now Rokeby School for Boys), Coombe Ridge (now Holy Cross Preparatory School), Coombe Court, Coombe End, Ballard Coombe and Fairview.

Numerous German bombs struck Coombe during World War II.

Today
Coombe is a prestigious residential location, with a premium on house prices. Much of the area is occupied by two golf courses, Coombe Wood and Coombe Hill; and three private estates partly on private roads, though in practice access is mostly open, apart from Coombe Park. These are called Coombe Hill, Coombe Warren and Coombe Park. Once the site of now-demolished Coombe Warren, a 19th-century property built by architect George Devey, Coombe Hill estate today consists of Coombe Hill Road and cul-de-sacs such as Greenwood Park and Devey Close; and along Warren Road, George Road and Golf Club Drive.

Notable buildings
Grade II-listed buildings and ancient monuments in Coombe include:
 * Three Tudor-era structures built as a system for supplying water to Hampton Court Palace from springs in Coombe: Coombe Conduit on Coombe Lane West, Ivy Conduit on the grounds of Holy Cross Preparatory School on George Road, Gallows Conduit on the grounds of Hampton Spring house on George Road;
 * Warren House on Warren Road, constructed in the 1860s for banker Hugh Hammersley and extended in 1884–1886 by the architect George Devey; and
 * Cedar Court on Coombe Hill Road, built on its present site in 1911–12 incorporating timbers from a late medieval timber-framed building from Colchester (probably the Perseverance Inn, demolished in 1910)

Notable residents and visitors

 * Actor Joss Ackland lived at Ravenswood Court.
 * Edward Charles Baring commissioned George Devey to create several buildings, including Coombe Hill Stables (1863) and Coombe Warren Lodge.
 * The scientist and spiritual leader John G. Bennett lived and taught at Coombe Springs until 1966 when he passed it to Idries Shah, who sold the estate for housing development.
 * Kenelm Lee Guinness, member of the Guinness brewing family, racing driver, former holder of the world land speed record and inventor of KLG sparking plugs lived at The White House, Coombe Warren, Kingston Hill.
 * Malcolm Campbell, racing driver and former holder of the world land speed record lived at the junction of Kingston Hill and Warboys Approach.
 * Donald Campbell, son of Malcolm Campbell and former holder of the world water speed record lived in the same house as his father on Kingston Hill.
 * Former tennis player Annabel Croft lives in Coombe Park.
 * Dwight D. Eisenhower, when Supreme Allied Commander during World War II, based in Bushy Park, lived at "Telegraph Cottage" in Coombe, which was adjacent to the golf course which he used at weekends.
 * Elizabeth I of England visited in 1602.
 * John Galsworthy, author of The Forsyte Saga and winner of the 1932 Nobel Prize in Literature, was born in a house on Kingston Hill called Parkfield, which was later named after him. Today, it is a care home for the elderly. The Galsworthy family also lived in Coombe Warren which they renamed Coombe Leigh and which later under new ownership became Coombe Ridge and Coombe Croft. (See Lown and Panizzo book referred to below.)
 * William Ewart Gladstone, British Prime Minister and Chancellor of the Exchequer, spent extended periods as a house-guest of friends in Coombe.
 * British politician George Glyn (1824–1877) lived in Warren House.
 * Douglas Haig, 1st Earl Haig (1861–1928), World War I general, lived at Ravenswood Court.
 * Sir Leonard "Len" Hutton, English cricketer, lived on Coombe Neville in the late 1960s.
 * Coombe House was owned by Robert Jenkinson, Lord Liverpool (Prime Minister, 1812–27), and later by Prince Adolphus, Duke of Cambridge, a son of George III.
 * Dame Nellie Melba, operatic singer, lived in a house here for many years.
 * Elisabeth Murdoch, media executive, lived in Coombe for several years.
 * Sir Wilfrid Sheldon, a consulting paediatrician and physician paediatrician to the Household of Queen Elizabeth II, lived on Edgecombe Close after his retirement in 1967.
 * Jimmy Tarbuck, English comedian and entertainer and his wife live in Coombe.
 * Rolling Stones guitarist Ronnie Wood used to live in a Victorian-era home known as Holmwood on Kingston Hill, opposite the entrance of Coombe Park and near Galsworthy House.

title: Coombe, Kingston upon Thames


text:
Kevin Kennedy (baseball)

Kevin Curtis Kennedy (born May 26, 1954) is an American former manager in Major League Baseball and a former television host for Fox Sports' baseball coverage. He was given the nickname "the Skipper" by Fox Sports due to his prior managerial career. Kennedy joined the Tampa Bay Rays broadcast team for the 2009 baseball season as a replacement for Joe Magrane.

Early life and career
Born in Los Angeles, Kevin Kennedy graduated from Taft High School in Woodland Hills, California in 1972, where he was a classmate of Robin Yount.

He attended San Diego State University and was drafted by the Baltimore Orioles in the 8th round of the 1976 Major League Baseball Draft.

Kennedy was a career minor league catcher who played in the Orioles, St. Louis Cardinals and Los Angeles Dodgers farm systems. In 510 career games, he hit .238 with 12 homers and 178 RBI. While with the Pawtucket Red Sox in 1981, he was the only player from either team to not play in the longest professional baseball game of all time versus the Rochester Red Wings.

He retired from playing after the 1983 season and became a manager in the Dodgers farm system for the Great Falls Dodgers (1984–1986), Bakersfield Dodgers (1987), San Antonio Missions (1988) and Albuquerque Dukes (1989–1991).

He was subsequently the bench coach for the Montreal Expos during the 1992 season.

Texas Rangers
He then was hired to manage the Texas Rangers for the 1993 season after the firing of Bobby Valentine and Toby Harrah. Kennedy was let go following the strike-shortened 1994 season after posting only a 52–62 record (even though, at the time of the strike, it was good enough for first place in the division) and was replaced by Johnny Oates.

Boston Red Sox
For the 1995 season, Kennedy became the manager for the Boston Red Sox. He led them to their first postseason appearance since 1990, but they were swept by the Cleveland Indians in the playoffs. Kennedy was fired following the 1996 season after going from a .597 to a .525 winning percentage.

Broadcasting career
In 1997 Kennedy joined ESPN as a color analyst on the network's Wednesday Night Baseball telecasts, performing the same role on ESPN Radio's Sunday Night Baseball in 1998 and on Fox Sports Net's Thursday Night Baseball in 1999 and 2000. From 2001 to 2008, he was a studio analyst for baseball on Fox, teaming with host Jeanne Zelasko. He also contributed to Fox Sports Net's Best Damn Sports Show Period and hosted a radio program on FOX Sports Radio, and was a regular co-host of Dodgers Live on Prime Ticket at this time.

In 2009 Kennedy took a job as a part-time television analyst for the Tampa Bay Rays, sharing the duty with former Rays pitcher Brian Anderson. Kennedy and Anderson both replaced Joe Magrane, who is now a part of the MLB Network. Kennedy returned to the Dodgers' postgame show for the 2009 postseason.

In October 2010 it was announced that Kennedy would not be returning to the Rays' broadcast crew in the 2011 season.

Kevin co-hosted Power Alley with Jim Duquette on Sirius XM's MLB Network Radio on Sirius 209/XM 89 from 10 am – 2 pm EST in 2011.

From 2014 through 2018, Kennedy teamed with Rick Monday to call select games on the Dodgers Radio Network and occasionally co-hosted the team's Dodger Talk radio post-game show.

Other media
In October 2019, Kennedy started doing podcasts of The Kevin Kennedy Show with Rich Grisham of Out of the Park Baseball and launched an official website where he teaches baseball instruction videos, has a blog, and hosts Q&A with fans.

title: Kevin Kennedy (baseball)


text: User talk:69.158.71.44

title: User talk:69.158.71.44


text:
User:Andreas Herzog

You can pick more information about me on my user pages in portuguese, french and german.

ca:Usuari:Brian Boru de:Benutzer:Brian Boru es:Usuario:Brian Boru fr:Utilisateur:Brian Boru gl:Usuario:Brian Boru it:Utente:Brian Boru la:Usor:Brian Boru nl:Gebruiker:Brian Boru pt:Usuário:Andreas Herzog tr:Kullanıcı:Brian Boru

title: User:Andreas Herzog


text:
User talk:Mrbrak

Welcome
Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~ ~ ~. Four tildes (~ ~ ) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!
 * How to edit a page; Editing tutorial; Picture tutorial
 * How to write a great article; Naming conventions; Manual of Style

Whosyourjudas (talk) 00:19, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

User:Mrbrak2
I assume you are not User:Mrbrak2? See

-- Curps 01:50, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Image:Kandinsky 1925 Yellow-Red-Blue.png listed for deletion
An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:Kandinsky 1925 Yellow-Red-Blue.png, has been listed at. Please look there to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in its not being deleted. Thank you. —MetsBot 18:55, 9 December 2006 (UTC) Thuresson 13:24, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Julie Simone
You state that there is a copyright problem with the astronomy images you previously uploaded. The problem is, you are also stealthily vandalizing the Julie Simone article, and this has nothing to do with any kind of copyright issues. This kind of vandalism is unfortunately familiar, I remember an orchestrated campaign some time ago by an entire army of sockpuppets. I see that as far back as 2004 the "Mrbrak" account blanked that article more than once, and now it seems you have restarted the stealth deletions that were previously done under other account names. I don't know who controls the "Mrbrak" account, but it seems that it is the same person who was behind that campaign. For that reason, I am blocking the "Mrbrak" account.

Unfortunately, since it seems you are intentionally deleting content with some unknown agenda (or perhaps this edit was you?), I can't really take your word for it regarding the astronomy images, since you might likewise have some motivation for doing this unrelated to copyrights. What I would suggest is that you should contact the Wikimedia Foundation directly as per the instructions given at Copyright, and they will certainly look into it.

As discussed many months ago with the anonymous IP claiming to be you at Talk:Julie Simone, all edits to Wikipedia are released under the GFDL license, which means the original author does not have an unrestricted right to arbitrarily remove his or her previous contributions merely because he or she, perhaps, has become disenchanted with Wikipedia or because a different person has taken over the account, or similar reasons. So it would be helpful to clarify the copyright issues, and the best way to do that would be to contact the Wikimedia Foundation about copyright as discussed above.

-- Curps 04:03, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I will contact Wikmedia foundation immedately about the images. The Julie Simone article I've been trying make changes to for quite some some since realizing that that it is full of factual errors. I originally took all of the biographical information from her web site. It wasn't until after that that I begin to find out that much of it was not true. For example, other web sites, plus Wickipedia's own related sites, showed that information to be false. She had in fact won only one signy award, not 4 as originally reported. She claims to have started glamour modeling in 1996, and yet there are pictue her of on her website modeling nude during her college days. There is also a website that uses her picture and her name as one of their escorts.

All I would like to do is remove the incorrect information that I was responsible for, and then I have no interest in the article.

Mr Brak 09:49, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

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CCI Notice
Hello, Mrbrak. This message is being sent to inform you that a request for a contributor copyright investigation has been filed at Contributor copyright investigations concerning your contributions to Wikipedia in relation to Wikipedia's copyrights policy. The listing can be found here. For some suggestions on responding, please see Responding to a CCI case. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 09:13, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

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title: User talk:Mrbrak


text:
Apophthegmatum opus

Apophthegmatum opus is a translation of Plutarch's Apophthegmata by Erasmus of Rotterdam, a collection of apophthegms from classical antiquity. Many classical apophthegms repeated ideas of Socrates, Plato, and Alexander the Great. According to Speroni, Apophthegmatum opus is one of "the most monumental collections of classical apophthegms… ever assembled…" Here are a few samples of Erasmus' apophthegms:

"While on the march with his army one winter, Alexander the Great was sitting by a campfire, watching the army as it marched by. He noticed an old warrior shivering from the cold, trying to find a place near the fire. Alexander bade the man sit in his own chair, saying, 'If you had been born a Persian, it would cost you your head to sit in the king's chair, but you are a Macedonian, not a Persian. Sit.'"

"Metellus once accused Cicero of having caused more people to die through his personal testimony than he had saved through his representing them in court. Cicero responded, 'Indeed, for my integrity exceeds my eloquence.'"

"A certain young gentleman who had come to Rome from the provinces was found to bear an astonishing resemblance to Augustus Caesar. Hearing this, Augustus had the man brought before him. Perceiving the close resemblance, Augustus asked him, 'Tell me, did your mother ever spend any time in Rome?' The quick-witted provincial shot back, 'My mother, never; my father, often.'"

"One of Socrates' lessons was that men should abstain from foods that might provoke a man to eat when he has no hunger, and drinks that might provoke him to drink when he has no thirst. He went on to say that the best sauce in the world is to be hungry."

title: Apophthegmatum opus


text:
Adagia

Adagia (singular adagium) is the title of an annotated collection of Greek and Latin proverbs, compiled during the Renaissance by Dutch humanist Desiderius Erasmus Roterodamus. Erasmus' repository of proverbs is "one of the most monumental ... ever assembled" (Speroni, 1964, p. 1).

The first edition, titled Collectanea Adagiorum, was published in Paris in 1500, in a slim quarto of around eight hundred entries. By 1508, after his stay in Italy, Erasmus had expanded the collection (now called Adagiorum chiliades tres or "Three thousands of proverbs") to over 3,000 items, many accompanied by richly annotated commentaries, some of which were brief essays on political and moral topics. The work continued to expand right up to the author's death in 1536 (to a final total of 4,151 entries), confirming the fruit of Erasmus' vast reading in ancient literature.

Commonplace examples from Adagia
Some of the adages have become commonplace in many European languages. Equivalents in English include:

• As though in a mirror

• Between a stone and a shrine (Between a rock and a hard place)

• The blind leading the blind

• The bowels of the earth

• The cart before the horse

• Complete the circle

• Crocodile tears

• Dog in the manger

• The dog is worthy of his dinner

• A dung beetle hunting an eagle

• Even a child can see it

• God helps those who help themselves

• Golden handcuffs

• The grass is greener over the fence

• Hanging by a thread

• Happy in one's own skin

• Hatched from the same egg

• He blows his own trumpet

• His heart was in his boots

• I gave as bad as I got (I gave as good as I got)

• In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king

• Kill two birds with one stone

• Let the cobbler stick to his last (Stick to your knitting)

• Like father, like son

• Like teaching an old man a new language (Can't teach an old dog new tricks)

• A living corpse

• Many hands make light work

• Many parasangs ahead (Miles ahead)

• More haste, less speed

• A necessary evil

• Necessity is the mother of invention

• Neither fish nor flesh

• Neither with bad things nor without them (Women: can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em)

• No sooner said than done

• Not worth a snap of the fingers

• Nowhere near the mark

• One man's meat is another man's poison

• One step at a time

• One swallow doesn't make a summer

• One to one

• Out of tune

• A point in time

• Prevention is better than cure

• A rare bird

• A rolling stone gathers no moss

• Rome wasn't built in a day

• Ship-shape

• A snail's pace

• There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip

• Think before you start

• Time reveals all things

• Time tempers grief (Time heals all wounds)

• To be in the same boat

• To break the ice

• To call a spade a spade

• To cut to the quick

• To dangle the bait

• To die of laughing

• To grind one's teeth

• To have an iron in the fire

• To have one foot in Charon's boat (To have one foot in the grave)

• To lead one by the nose

• To leave no stone unturned

• To lift a finger

• To look a gift horse in the mouth

• To show one's heels

• To sleep on it

• To squeeze water out of a stone

• To swallow the hook

• To throw cold water on

• To walk the tightrope

• To walk on tiptoe

• To weigh anchor

• Up to both ears (Up to his eyeballs)

• We cannot all do everything

• What's done cannot be undone

• Where there's life, there's hope

• With a fair wind

• You have touched the issue with a needle-point (To have nailed it)

Seventy of the Adages were from Aesop's fables.

Context

The work reflects a typical Renaissance attitude toward classical texts: to wit, that they were fit for appropriation and amplification, as expressions of a timeless wisdom first uncovered by the classical authors. It is also an expression of the contemporary humanism; the Adagia could only have happened via the developing intellectual environment in which careful attention to a broader range of classical texts produced a much fuller picture of the literature of antiquity than had been possible, or desired, in medieval Europe. In a period in which sententiæ were often marked by special fonts and footnotes in printed texts, and in which the ability to use classical wisdom to bolster modern arguments was a critical part of scholarly and even political discourse, it is not surprising that Erasmus' Adagia was among the most popular volumes of the century.

Erasmus originally intended to include Biblical adages, parables and imagery, however this was too ambitious; he later addressed these with his New Testament Annotations and Paraphrases.

Source: Erasmus, Desiderius. Adages in Collected Works of Erasmus. Trans. R.A.B Mynors et al. Volumes 31–36. Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1982–2006. (A complete annotated translation into English. There is a one-volume selection: Erasmus, Desiderius. Adages. Ed. William Barker. Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 2001. )

Between friends all is common
The place of honour as first entry of the Adagia is (amicorum communia omnia.) Erasmus' commentary goes beyond friendsip to discussion the attitude towards property and communal ownership by cassical Greek philosophers and Christ. Not surprising for someone under a religious vow of poverty and common ownership, Erasmus comes down on the side of friendly sharing of life and property.

Sileni Alcibiadis (The Sileni of Alcibiadis)
An unprepossessing exterior may hide a beautiful interior (and vice versa.) The incarnation of Christ is the highest example.

Bidden or unbidden, God is always there
Erasmus traces this back through the Romans (Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit) to a Spartan saying. Carl Jung reputedly had this enscribed on his study door.

title: Adagia


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kingdom of Vicia

Kingdom of Vicia and Elizabeth I of Vicia
An entire (sub-)kingdom under the protection of the United Kingdom with over 750 years of history and yet not a single Google hit. Delete this drivel! [[User:Livajo|力伟|☺]] 00:21, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Also note that this is an anonymous user's only contribution. [[User:Livajo|力伟|☺]] 00:25, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Okay, it seems the same user has wasted even more time writing even more drivel. I have listed the page accordingly. [[User:Livajo|力伟|☺]] 00:40, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Just speedy-delete the stupid thing. I would, if it wasn't here. - DavidWBrooks 00:48, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I would have done so if there was a speedy case that applied to this article. While it is an obvious attempt to cloak fictional information as truth, that doesn't really qualify as patent nonsense and I felt obliged to put it here instead. [[User:Livajo|力伟|☺]] 04:42, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Bet the UK can't protect it from being deleted.Wyllium 01:35, 2004 Oct 20 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete both as patent nonsense. Jeez, why couldn't the person responsible for these put the same amount of work and effort into real articles?  Go figure. - Lucky 6.9 00:59, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete -- I do like the Kingdom of Broad Beans, though. --jpgordon {gab} 01:02, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Good effort for a falsehood, though.  Postdlf 01:10, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete both. "Patent nonsense" in the {delete} context is strictly defined as either "Total nonsense, i.e., text that has no assignable meaning at all. This tends to be created after the consumption of too much alcohol." or "Stuff that, while apparently meaningful after a fashion, is so completely and irremediably confused that no intelligent person can be expected to try to make head or tail of it.". I think both articles are FAR too coherent to qualify. fiction!=patent nonsense Niteowlneils 01:45, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Then perhaps we need a speedy delete rule for "utter bullshit"? --jpgordon {gab} 01:57, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Quite possibly (User:Niteowlneils/csdornot/Grunderlings). Also "genealogic research" (User:Niteowlneils/csdornot/Fluge Flugel Flugelman, III)(possibly only after posting the question at the Reference Desk), "personal information" (such as giving out someone's Social Security number or the equivalent), "ASCII art" (User:Niteowlneils/csdornot/Cows), and "fan mail" (User:Niteowlneils/csdornot/NameofWhatever Star), none of which I know of a speedy case they clearly fall under. Niteowlneils 02:38, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)


text:
The Rocklopedia Fakebandica

The Rocklopedia Fakebandica, by T. Mike Childs, is an illustrated encyclopedia of fictional musical groups and musicians, as seen in movies and television. It was officially released November 6, 2004. The book catalogs such better-known fake bands as Spinal Tap, The Blues Brothers, The Rutles, and The Chipmunks, along with dozens of less well known ones. The book takes a light-hearted, humorous approach, often pointing out the discrepancies between the experiences of real bands and musicians and the unlikely adventures fictional ones have.

The book grew out of a website started by the author in 2000. The website includes fictional bands from other sources, such as books and TV commercials, as well as many bands not found in the book.

On April 1, 2024, The Rocklopedia Fakebandica podcast debuted on both Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Hosted by T. Mike Childs, Charles Rempel and Alan Benson, the podcast explores the definition of fake bands in some depth, and continues to discuss significant entries from the book and website.

title: The Rocklopedia Fakebandica


text:
File:Cluster & Eno.jpg

Summary
Cover of the album Cluster & Eno, 1977.

title: File:Cluster & Eno.jpg


text:
Molendinar Burn

The Molendinar Burn is a burn in Glasgow, Scotland. It was the site of the settlement, Mellingdenor, that grew to become the kernel of Glasgow, and where St Mungo founded his church in the 6th century. It was later used to power the growing town's mills and the name became adapted because the word "molendinar" means "relating to a mill or millers", possibly because that is what the Welsh name Mellingdenor originally meant.

Historic Course (late 1700s)
Richard Thomas' 1795 "Map of the town of Glasgow & country seven miles around" clearly shows the course of the burn. The source at that time was a small loch at "Huggenfield" to the north east of the city (the present day Hogganfield Loch). The course then headed generally south west, passing through the virtually undeveloped areas of Craighead, Blackhill and Blochairn, where it passed under the Monkland Canal. Approaching the city, the course turned south past "Kirk" and down the route of the present day Wishart Street, passing under what are now Duke Street and Gallowgate to pass in front of St Andrew's Church. Saltmarket south of Bridgegate did not exist at that time, the burn ran through fields there to enter the Clyde at the present day Clyde Street at Mart Street. Peter Fleming's 1807 "Map of the City of Glasgow and suburbs" shows the city centre area of the burn in greater detail. It can be seen from both of these maps that the burn ran almost entirely above ground at that time.

Present Course (2020)
The present source of the burn is Frankfield Loch in Cardowan. This loch did not exist (or was not mapped) when Thomas published his 1795 map. A short man-made cut connects Frankfield Loch to the 0.9 km distant Hogganfield Loch. The route from Hogganfield Loch to the River Clyde is fairly similar to that of 1795. However the majority of the length of the burn has been culverted in stages since the 1870s. Short stretches of the burn can be seen above ground in Molendinar Park (in the Blackhill / Provanmill area) and beside the former Great Eastern Hotel on Duke Street.

The final 250 m stretch from Greendyke to the Clyde was rerouted at some time in the past. The burn now enters the Clyde 125 m upstream of the 1795 confluence point, near the Tidal Weir.

title: Molendinar Burn


text:
James O. Fraser

James Outram Fraser (Chinese: 富能仁; 1886–1938) was an English Protestant Christian missionary to China with the China Inland Mission. He pioneered work among the Lisu people, of Southwestern China, in the early part of the 20th century. He is credited with developing the Fraser script for their language.

Early life
Born in London in 1886. Fraser had four brothers and sisters. His parents divorced when Fraser was a teen, his mother moving to Letchworth, buying property with her own funds.

By 1906, he was at Imperial College London studying engineering. Fraser was accomplished in piano and held a recital in his twenties before he left for China.

First years in Yunnan
He became a graduate engineer. However, in 1908 he dedicated his life to missionary work and joined the China Inland Mission. He arrived in China at 22 and travelled from Shanghai to Hong Kong and then to the mountainous region of China's far southwest.

He was forced by the chaos accompanying the Chinese Revolution of 1911 to divide his time between Yunnan Province and Burma. He learned the Lisu language and commenced his work among the Lisu, a Tibeto-Burmese minority people who lived in the high mountains along the borders of the two countries.

Fraser had arrived in Yunnan in 1910 and spent nearly thirty years working among the Lisu. Fraser is best known for the alphabet he created for the Lisu, often referred to as the Fraser alphabet. It was designed for purpose of translating the New Testament into the Lisu language. Fraser also designed a written musical notation for transcribing the Lisu's oral history songs.

Going to China with CIM (China Inland Mission), he was stationed in the then remote province of Yunnan to work with the local Chinese, but Fraser was a keen climber and revelled in climbing through the mountains meeting and preaching to the Lisu people, particularly in the upper Salween River valley. Readily accepted by them and able to live in their mud floor huts, he was able to communicate a little through Chinese and then to learn their language, which is in the Tibeto-Burman group. Initial success was followed by years of doubt and difficulty until 1916, when he and fellow missionaries started to see scores of families convert to Christianity and enthusiastically pursue a new life without the fear of the spirits that had previously characterised them.

By 1918, sparked by family evangelism carried on by the people themselves, 600 believers had been baptised. Fraser was known for his ability to organise the people into strong indigenous churches that became models for church-planting ventures not only for other minority peoples in China's southwest but also for other

Aware that they would soon need material in their language, he began work immediately on Mark's gospel and a hymnbook since they showed great interest in writing and were already great singers and natural musicians.

Furlough and marriage
Fraser went back to England on furlough in 1924 and when he returned to "Lisuland" in 1929, he was married, to Roxie Dymond, the daughter of a Methodist missionary stationed in Kunming.

Revival and the Fraser alphabet
Fraser developed a script for the Lisu language and used it to prepare a catechism, portions of Scripture and eventually, with much help from his colleagues, a complete New Testament. Working initially on Mark and John and then on a handbook of Lisu history and language, Fraser handed on the translation task to Allyn Cooke and his wife, Leila. He came back to help the team with revision and checking in the mid-1930s. The complete New Testament was finished in 1936.

Fraser maintained a consistent policy of training the Lisu converts (usually whole households and whole villages at a time) to be self-supporting and to pay for their own books and church buildings. They raised their own funds for the support of pastors, of wives and children of their travelling evangelists and of festivals and other occasions. Unlike other missionaries of his generation, Fraser would not pay local preachers to go out or for building local church structures. That was something that put the Lisu in good stead for the years of Japanese occupation and the Communist persecution, particularly during the Cultural Revolution.

Nevertheless, tens of thousands of them fled during this era to neighbouring Burma and Thailand. Fraser also left church government in the hands of Lisu elders; very little imprint was made on them that had a home church character, other than the tremendous prayer support the Fraser organised back in England for the Lisu and his work.

Throughout the 1930s, other missionaries came to assist in the work, but the bulk of the conversions happened as a result of Lisu evangelists covering the ground and reaching not only the Lisu but also the Kachin and Yi people (Nosu). Revivals also broke out at this time. It is acknowledged by the Chinese government that by the 1990s, over 90% of the Lisu in China were Christian.

Final years and legacy
Fraser wrote many articles in English for "The Chinese Recorder" and "China's Millions". After seeing great fruit for his labours, James Outram Fraser died in Baoshan, in Western Yunnan in 1938 of cerebral malaria, leaving his pregnant wife and two children. He was 52.

His main biographer was Mrs. Howard Taylor, who published "Behind The Ranges" in 1944, containing numerous extracts from his letters and diaries. His daughter, Eileen Crossman, gives his biography, "Mountain Rain", in 1982, much of her material being drawn from Taylor (1944). Fraser's grave is now at the Qing Hua church.

""On September 25, 1938, while in Baoshan, Yunnan, China, James Fraser died at the age of 52. Due to land erosion, West Yunnan's Christian church decided to move the grave from the mountain slopes of Baoshan to this location, renewing the headstone on behalf of the Lisu church as a way of expressing their cherished memory of J.O. Fraser. Fraser's life has reaped a large harvest although many tears had first to be sown through his labours."

""The Lisu church at Baoshan plans to commemorate J.O. Fraser every seven years at a special Easter service in the new Bible training center they have started there. Another memorial to J.O. Fraser has been erected by Lisu believers in Weixi County in far northwestern Yunnan. Inscribed in Lisu, Chinese and English the English reads: “IN LOVING MEMORY. JAMES O. FRASER 1886–1938. How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news. WITH DEEPEST LOVE REMEMBER YOU ALWAYS—THE LISU CHURCH.” The Chinese states additionally: “Erected by the Christian Church in the Lisu Autonomous County of Weixi on 15 March 2004.”"

""The Lisu church has seen spectacular numerical growth in recent decades. In 1950 the Nujiang Lisu Autonomous Prefecture had 14,800 believers. By 1995 that number had risen to over 100,000—most of them Lisu. In the early 1980s the Yunnan Christian Council printed several thousand copies of the Lisu Bible. Then in 1995 a further 45,000 Lisu Bibles were published, as well as 65,000 Lisu hymnbooks. Both printings were in the special script devised by J.O. Fraser. However, the church is still hampered by endemic poverty, illiteracy and lack of trained pastors and evangelists. The rapid development of Yunnan as a tourist region and the tidal wave of emigration of young tribal people from the remote mountain valleys to the cities in search of work are bringing many changes to the Lisu church, not all of them positive."

In 1992, the Chinese government officially recognised the Fraser alphabet as the official script of the Lisu language. Today, Fraser is remembered as one of Christianity's most successful missionaries to East Asia in modern times.

Christianity is thriving in the Salween River valley, where the Lisu live nearly 70 years after the death of Fraser. Of the 18,000 Lisu who lived in Fugong in 1950, 3,400 professed faith in Christ. As of 2007, there are estimated to be 80–90 percent of the 70,000 making the same profession. In Yunnan it is estimated that there are 100,000–200,000 total Lisu Christians in the Lisu Church. More than 75,000 Lisu Bibles have been legally printed in China following the explosive growth.

title: James O. Fraser


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