text:
Remnants (novel series)

Remnants is a series of science fiction books co-authored by Katherine Applegate and her husband Michael Grant, writing together under the name K. A. Applegate, and published between July 2001 and September 2003.

Plot summary
In book one, a 76 mi-long asteroid is on a collision course with Earth, which will kill the vast majority of all living things. Eighty people – mostly top scientists and their families – have been chosen to make a desperate escape in the Mayflower, a converted space ship which will use solar sails and experimental suspended animation. A chunk of the asteroid breaks off and destroys San Francisco. Some people who were not chosen to leave Earth kill some of the chosen crew so they can take their places on board the Mayflower. Others are stowaways. Most people on board are put into suspended animation, and the ship barely leaves in time, before the asteroid strikes.

In book two, most of the passengers on the Mayflower wake up and find the ship is somehow within a building. Something went wrong with the suspended animation, causing about twenty people, mostly adults, to die. The survivors, many of them now orphaned teenagers, call themselves Remnants. They discover alien races / species in the building, along with deadly parasitic worms. They must fight to learn what is going on and to survive. Eventually, Jobs realizes they are inside a colossal space craft.

In book three, the Remnants learn the space craft has an artificial intelligence called Mother, that Mother is confused, and the confusion is causing problems with the indoor environment. The Remnants must learn to communicate with and hopefully get along with the various alien races / species, in order to fix Mother.

Main characters

 * Jobs: He and his parents and brother are on the Mayflower: only Jobs and his brother survive. Jobs' poetic sense and technical knowledge combined are often useful in understanding Mother, a sentient machine. It is Jobs who discovers the remains of Earth. He chose to use the name Jobs because unlike Bill Gates or Michael Dell, Steven Jobs created a miniature revolution "...in his garage." Jobs' birth name is Sebastian Andreeson. He was the son of a prominent scientist, Jennifer Andreeson, head of astrophysics at Stanford, and Tony Andreeson, a software technician with the "kind of job where nobody expects you to show up on time, or at all," and was recruited to go on the Mayflower Project. He was joined by his long-time best friend Mo'Steel. He was briefly romantically involved with a girl named Cordelia before he went aboard the Mayflower project, and the first book of Remnants deals with his longing for her to accompany him on the ship. Cordelia instead comes to an infamous death when her video link reveals to the world a chunk of The Rock obliterating San Francisco and its inhabitants, with the resulting shockwave shattering the building from which Cordelia witnesses the destruction.
 * Mo'Steel: Jobs' best friend, Mo'Steel is named for either "Man of Steel" or "More Steel" (Mo cannot remember which), since he has broken 5 of his bones. 4 of them so were broken so badly, they had been replaced with titanium composites. Mo'Steel has a love for adventure and is proud of all his broken bones and scars. Mo marries Noyze in the series' epilogue, and has 1 son Boyd, and Noyze is pregnant with another. Mo'Steel's birth name is Romeo Gonzalez. Mo'Steel is possibly an idiot-savant; however, evidence can only be found in the second book when he converts an insane number of minutes into years.
 * 2Face: Named after the comic book villain, Two-Face. She is one of 2 players battling for total control of the Remnants. 2Face seems to show feelings for Billy, but upon being stranded on Earth, she becomes paranoid to the point that she is sure Billy orchestrated the entire event. She attempts to kill Billy to stop the re-greening ritual, and Billy is forced to kill her to protect himself, but not before he gives her a vision of her dead mother so that she may die peacefully. It is hinted several times through the series that 2Face herself caused the fire that scarred her, but this is not confirmed.
 * Yago: The son of the first African-American, and first female President of the United States (Janice Castleman), Yago is 2Face's competition for control. He is highly arrogant and is assured he will eventually rise to power, caring for his own safety above all else. About halfway through the series, Yago is connected to Mother and is "killed" (actually, a projection of his mind is killed). The ordeal leaves Yago believing himself to be "The One": A being of purity, destined to lead the Chosen (the non-mutant Remnants) and to destroy the Freaks (2Face and the mutated Remnants). Yago's twisted religion turns many Blue Meanies with his newly discovered mutation "The Touch", a sort of laying-on-hands that several Meanies crave (although it is not known exactly what The Touch really does - only that it does not work on humans). Near the end of his life Yago becomes much more likeable and not arrogant. Yago dies when his mind, inside of Tate, fades away. Yago's birth name is Robert Castleman.
 * Violet Blake: Violet is a "Jane" (named for Jane Austen), who for the first half of the series, prefers to be called Miss Blake. As a Jane, Violet has a distaste for technology, and a love for all forms of art and literature. Violet suffers an attack of "worms" in the second book, and eventually they become her mutation, enabling her to become a mass of worms that can revive the dead (to an extent). Violet and Jobs have a semi-romantic relationship, but her disgust over her mutation, and Jobs' obsession with Earth, drive them apart. She marries the Marauder Sanchez in the end of the book. Violet's birth name is Dallas, the place of her birth.
 * Billy Weir: Billy is a true enigma. Originally a Chechen orphan, Billy was adopted by a Texan family. He was born Russian, but his father, Billy Weir Senior, aka, Big Bill, changed his name to Billy. At times it seems that Billy has infinite power, and has a strong connection with Mother. Early in the series he was carried around the computer generated world by Jobs thereby fusing friendship with Jobs that is persistent throughout the series. Long before the Mayflower, Billy dreamt of events that would unfold over five centuries later. While in hibernation, Billy did not sleep, and was awake for the five-hundred-year journey. The ordeal twisted his mind, giving him telekinesis, the power to levitate, and many other strange abilities. In the fourth book, he moves Wylson Lefkowitz-Blake's dead body like an oversized marionette, freaking Mo'Steel out big-time. These abilities make Billy a match for Mother, to the point where they assimilate to become one. Billy dies in the re-greening ritual: it is possible he may have survived, but 2Face's attack and the subsequent energy Billy spends to drain her life force may have contributed to his death. He is dubbed "Billy Weird" by many of his enemies (which amounts to anyone seeking control of the ship).
 * Tate: Tate is one of the teenage survivors of the Mayflower. She is a relatively unimportant character until the seventh book, and most of the thirteenth book is about her. Tate developed a mutation called "the mouth", which causes her head to grow to a monstrous size when she feels threatened, and accidentally eats Yago, Charlie, and Amelia, who continue to live inside Tate until she dies or they die a natural death. In the earlier books Tate shows feelings for Mo'Steel and tells him that he's holding the Remnants together.
 * Tamara Hoyle: A Marine who was not intended to board the Mayflower shuttle, she was trapped on board when the ship launched, and she was given the berth of a passenger who had been killed before boarding the ship. Tamara was pregnant when she was placed in her berth, and is rejuvenated with the Baby Te at her side. For the first part of the series she is mind-controlled by Te. After Te is defeated, Tamara takes a keen interest in the defense of the Remnants. She is killed by Blue Meanies on the trip back to Earth.
 * The Troika: Amelia, Duncan Choate, and Charlie Langlow, are a trio of humans living in what is called "The Basement", a dark area that is very much what it sounds: an area below Mother's main deck. All of them "ascend" to become slime-like shapeshifters. Amelia and Charlie are assimilated into Tate, and Duncan is killed.
 * D-Caf: D-Caf wasn't supposed to be on the Mayflower. But he and his brother, Mark, stowed away on board the ship. Mark attacked Tamara and was killed by her. Jobs, who wasn't in his hibernation booth yet, heard the commotion and subdued D-Caf, but not before D-Caf shot one of the two pilots. Ultimately, D-Caf was given the spot. When the surviving Remnants woke up, D-Caf ended up hanging out with Yago because no one else liked him. He spends the majority of the series following Yago and Anamull. When the Blue Meanies attacked, D-Caf was killed and given Violet's worm mutation. Along with the remaining Remnants, except Tate, he was abandoned by Yago. Although he's not mentioned in the epilogue, D-Caf survived and lived to see the new Earth.
 * Kubrick: The fifteen-year-old son of one of the Mayflower's engineers, Kubrick was skinned by Mother to look more like her creators. He is introduced in the fifth book, where he and his father find Billy and Mo'Steel in the "basement". In the series, he shows definite feelings for 2Face. He is killed in the ninth book by Charlie saving 2Face's life.
 * Echo: An Alpha colony inhabitant, Echo is not genetically pure, and this shows in her blind baby. She is forced to flee the Alpha colony and seek refuge with the Marauders. Her child, Lumina, becomes one of 3 elements in the re-greening of Earth.
 * Sanchez: Sanchez is the Marauder who was granted visions by the Source, which is later revealed to be Mother. After the Remnants and Marauders win against the Savagers, Sanchez receives a call from Mother telling the humans to come to the source. Through Billy, Sanchez saw what elements were needed to perform the ritual that would restore Earth.
 * Noyze: Born Jessica Polk, Noyze, the daughter of a novelist and an orthopedic surgeon, was mostly deaf until age 12, then received surgery that restored her hearing to its full capacity. Noyze and Dr Cohen were abandoned on the ship by the other Remnants and kidnapped by Blue Meanies. Noyze is the only Remnant who can communicate with the Blue Meanies.
 * Newton: Hawk's brother, the former leader of the Marauders after he's killed by Mo'Steel. Right from the start, Newton plotted to kill Mo'Steel and become leader himself. He tried to have D-Caf poisoned by Balder and Olga to be killed by Rattler, both of which fail. Then his attempt to kill Mo'Steel was foiled by Edward. After Newton failed to steal Lumina, Newton fled; his ultimate fate is never revealed.
 * Te: Initially called "The Baby", Te appears first as the young child of Tamara Hoyle, who was born on the 500-year journey. After some time, however, it becomes clear that the Baby is not human, and is furthermore controlling Tamara's mind. After absorbing the energy of several Blue Meanies, Te transforms into a Shipwright and attempts to seize control of Mother. However, Billy defeats him by joining with Mother. Te is notably the only Shipwright to appear.
 * Mother: Both a computer and a ship, Mother is so highly advanced that she is self-aware, or at least is able to give the impression that she is, and experiences loneliness after her creators, the Shipwrights, abandoned her and left her alone for a six hundred years. The long years alone in space have damaged her system: she must have maintenance every 200 cycles, and has been alone for 600 (although it is not specified exactly how long a cycle is). The long years of no new input drove Mother mad, and when the Mayflower is found, she eagerly awakes the Remnants to absorb new information. Mother eventually merges with Billy. When Billy and she are disconnected, she suffers a computer virus from the Troika, and is degraded into Daughter, a simplified form of herself. Mother the Ship crashes on Earth, and becomes known as the Source to the Marauders.

Other characters

 * Mark Melman: Mark was D-Caf's older brother and foster father. The two of them weren't supposed to be on the Mayflower, but they stowed away in some space suits. Mark attacked and wounded Tamara but was killed by her before she lost consciousness.
 * Jasper Willett: Colonel Jasper Willett was the Mayflower commander. When one of the Mayflower's solar sail's is damaged, Willett talks Jobs and Mo'Steel how to fix it. But shortly afterward, he used the gun D-Caf had used earlier to kill himself, presumably because he couldn't live without his family. When Jobs, Mo'Steel and 2Face woke up on Mother, they found Willett's skeleton.
 * Connie Huerta: Doctor Connie Huerta was one of the Mayflower passengers who survived hibernation. Before departing, Connie offered to let Tamara take her place on the Mayflower to give her baby a chance at life; Tamara was pregnant at the time. Shortly after waking up, Jobs found Tamara with her baby, and the umbilical cord still attached. Connie died when the baby attacked her in her attempt to cut the cord.
 * Errol Smith: Errol was one of the Mayflower passengers who survived hibernation. He was one of the rocket scientists who put the Mayflower together. He was one of the first of the Remnants to suggest that they'd somehow been captured as there were no signs of reentry damage. But shortly afterward, the Remnants were attacked by the Riders, who challenged Errol to a duel and killed him.
 * William "Big Bill" Weir: Big Bill was Billy's adopted father. He woke up from his berth with T.R.; Big Bill being infested with worms at the time. When Jobs, Violet and Mo'Steel tried to save him, one of the worms escaped and got into Violet's finger, prompting Jobs and Mo'Steel to cut off her finger. Ultimately Billy killed Big Bill to save him from a slow death. Big Bill reappears as projection to the Remnants as a projection by Billy while he spoke with Mother.
 * Shy Hwang: Shy Hwang was 2Face's father. Before the Rock hit, Shy was an ABC producer in Miami who blackmailed the Mayflower Project to get his family places on board and a chance at life. After Shy found his wife dead, he remained depressed for the rest of his time on board Mother. Shy was finally killed by a Blue Meanie aboard the Constitution.
 * Wylson Lefkowitz-Blake: Wylson was the CEO of Microsoft who survived hibernation aboard the Mayflower. Yago appointed her leader of the Remnants; he intended to usurp her later. When Tamara demanded a sacrifice for the baby, 2Face arranged with Yago for Wylson to be fed. Wylson was saved when the node was destroyed and their current environment replaced to its default setting. During the battle on the Constitution, a massive wave threw her overboard. Mo'Steel had jumped into the water to save her and Billy, who had been thrown into the water by Tamara. Mo'Steel managed to reach Billy but was too late to help Wylson.
 * Alberto Disalvo: Alberto was one of the scientists who designed the Mayflower's solar sails. He and his son, Kubrick, woke up earlier and fell back asleep. Alberto would wake up to find his son mutated by Mother. The two met up with Mo'Steel and Billy and found one of the chairs that interfaced with Mother. Alberto sat in the chair and got his brain scrambled. Shortly afterward, Mother would kill Alberto in the Blue Meanies base.
 * T.R.: Tathagata "T.R." Rajagopalchari was one of the survivors aboard the Mayflower. He woke along with a worm-infested Big Bill. T.R. was silent for the majority of his part with the Remnants. When Billy enforced the Big Compromise, T.R. had him make a helicopter for him. T.R. was killed by Blue meanies who were searching for Yago. Their fired missed Edward and hit him. T.R. was the first of the Remnants to be honored with a proper burial.
 * Angelique Cohen: Doctor Cohen was one of survivors on board the Mayflower. She was kidnapped by the Blue Meanies along with Noyze. Throughout her part in the series, Doctor Cohen was obsessed with finding her husband, Alan Carrington. When Noyze set off to negotiate with the Blue Meanies, they attacked them and placed a device on Doctor Cohen that looked into her memories and drove her insane. Doctor Cohen was later killed by the Blue Meanies in the attack that followed.
 * Daniel Burroway: Burroway was one of the survivors on board the Mayflower who lost his entire family. He constantly fought among the other Remnants and respected no one except Wylson. Burroway was the Remnants' first casualty when they landed on Earth. He was killed by a pillar of flame.
 * Anamull: Anamull was one of the younger survivors on board the Mayflower. Yago recruited Anamull as his bodyguard; Anamull spent most of the series following Yago though he secretly thought he was nuts. Yago would abandon Anamull along with the other remaining Remnants on Earth with the Riders and Blue Meanies. Anamull provoked a fight and killed two of the Meanies. He then isolated himself from the others and was able to make a fire. But he was ultimately accidentally devoured by D-Caf, who was just trying to scare him, in his worm form.
 * Rodger Dodger: Rodger Dodger was one of the younger survivors aboard the Mayflower. He wasn't very important until he accompanied Tate and D-Caf on several Rider boards. He grew very bored of living quietly with Tate and Tamara when Billy enforced the Big Compromise. He snuck into the Violet's house and killed himself while playing with a Rider Boomerang. Violet brought him back to life in using her concealed mutation.
 * Olga: Mo'Steel's mother, who tries to keep Mo'Steel from danger without much success, though she's used to his dangerous antics. Olga made it her business to take care of the Remnants whenever one of them was injured. She befriended the Marauder, Aga, and the two lived together in the new Earth for a time before Aga died.
 * Edward: Jobs's six-year-old brother who gains the power to blend into his surrounding environment until he's practically invisible. When Wylson abandons Violet, Jobs asks 2Face to look after Edward. Edward's power proves very useful when he stops Newton from killing Mo'Steel. Edward was one of the few to survive to see the new Earth.

List of humans
During the escape from earth, eighty humans were on board the Mayflower. However, some diverged into other species. Of the Eighty that set out, only eight survived. 22 died on board the Mayflower, one was killed before the Mayflower set off, the two "pilots" were killed before the hibernation happened, and 27 died of other causes. List of Marauders

List of alphas
There are 40 alphas; this list is incomplete.

List of books
The following books are in the series:
 * 1) The Mayflower Project (July 2001)
 * 2) Destination Unknown (September 2001)
 * 3) Them (November 2001)
 * 4) Nowhere Land (January 2002)
 * 5) Mutation (March 2002)
 * 6) Breakdown (May 2002)
 * 7) Isolation (July 2002)
 * 8) Mother, May I? (September 2002)
 * 9) No Place Like Home (November 2002)
 * 10) Lost and Found (January 2003)
 * 11) Dream Storm (March 2003)
 * 12) Aftermath (May 2003)
 * 13) Survival (July 2003)
 * 14) Begin Again (September 2003)

Plots

 * The Mayflower Project: At the start of the first book, Jobs learns of a seventy-six mile long asteroid on a collision course with Earth. His parents then tell him of a project of eighty people being shipped off into a shuttle with solar sails and hibernation booths. Jobs, along with his best friend Mo'Steel, attempt to give a place to Jobs's crush Cordelia, but learn from her father that she's away in San Francisco. Cordelia later dies when a small piece of the asteroid breaks off and destroys San Francisco. Jobs, Mo'Steel and their parents all get shipped off to the Mayflower along with the rest of the eighty, who are being pursued by a mob who wants to destroy the Mayflower, as well a pair of brothers named Mark and Harlin "D-Caf" Melman, the former of which intends to kill the Mayflower's crew to give him and his brother places on the Mayflower. Shortly before boarding the Mayflower, a gunman kills one of the eighty and the Mayflower takes off with Mark and D-Caf, who have stowed away in spaces suits, and unbeknownst to anyone, a pregnant marine sergeant, Tamara Hoyle. Mark attacks Tamara, but is ultimately killed by her. Jobs hears the commotion and subdues D-Caf, but not before D-Caf accidentally shoots one of the pilots. The Mayflower commander, Colonel Willett realizes that a solar sail has been damaged. While he places Tamara and D-Caf into hibernation booths, Jobs revives Mo'Steel, and the pair of them repair the sail moments before the asteroid hits Earth. The book ends with Jobs and Mo'Steel returning to their berths, but Colonel Willett takes Mark's gun and shoots himself, and everyone falls asleep, all except for an orphan boy named Billy Weir.
 * Destination Unknown: Jobs wakes up from hibernation, along with Mo'Steel and a girl named 2Face, and the three of them discover that not everyone has survived, including both Jobs's parents, Mo'Steel's dad and 2Face's mom. Slowly but surely other members of the eighty wake up, including Billy, a girl named Violet Blake and her mother Wylson, the president's son Yago, Mo'Steel's mother, 2Face's dad Shy Hwang, Jobs's brother Edward and others. They soon realize that there's no sign of reentry damage, their environment looks like two famous paintings and two of the "wakers" are killed; Connie Huerta by Tamara's baby and Errol Smith at the hands of a hover-board-riding alien later named Riders. Other members of the eighty emerge, including, D-Caf, a boy named Rodger Dodger, a boy named Anamull, a girl named Tate a man named Burroway. Two others include T.R. and Big Bill Weir, Billy's adopted father. The Remnants learn that Big Bill is infested with worms. When Violet attempts to save him, one worm gets in her finger, prompting Jobs to cut off her finger and Wylson to abandon her; Big Bill is also killed by Billy, who then blacks out. Jobs, Mo'Steel and his mother, Olga stay with Violet and witness another group of aliens entering the environment, which Jobs now realizes is a colossal ship.
 * Them: While Jobs's group stays with Violet, the main group of Remnants have found a replica of the Tower of Babel and are attacked by a group of Riders. Tamara battles one of the Riders and strangely manages to kill it. When Wylson remarks on it, Tamara replies, "Everything dies, human." Meanwhile, Jobs and the others get frequently attacked by strange demons that Violet identifies as Bosch's Final Judgement. Along the way, they encounter one of the aliens they saw entering the ship; Mo'Steel had called them Blue Meanies. They attempt to communicate with the Meanie with difficulty, but with help from Billy, they manage to get out of him that his name is Four Sacred Streams and that Mother is confused, which Jobs assumes is the Ship, and that a node must be destroyed, which is creating the environments. Back with the others, 2Face attempts to leave with Edward, having been discriminated by Yago as a freak. She returns to the others and gets attacked by the other Remnants, who decided to feed 2Face to Tamara's baby in order for Tamara to protect them from the Riders, so 2Face bribes Yago so that Wylson will be sacrificed. But the baby doesn't get to eat anyone when Four Sacred Streams destroys the node at the cost of his own life, saving the lives of Jobs's group, but trapping the other Remnants in Mother's default setting, the Riders' home territory.
 * Nowhere Land: Jobs and his group reunite with their fellow Remnants, who have barely escaped an attack from the Riders. They find a large creature, that they call a Blimp, swimming through the new environment, a copper colored sea with small islands dotted around it. Using a Rider boomerang provided by D-Caf, Mo'Steel manages to get a hold on the Blimp and help the other Remnants onto the Blimp. Wylson then berates Yago in his attempt to sacrifice her to Tamara's baby and attempts to replace him with Jobs as her new representative for the younger Remnants. 2Face intervenes, claiming that survival is more important. The following day, they're attacked by the Riders again. Billy tries to keep the Blimp moving and several of the Remnants are lucky enough to kill some of the Riders, but they just keep coming. The Remnants hide inside the Blimp itself and escape the Riders but shortly after they leave, the Blimp dies. They swim to one of the islands and spot another one of Mother's replicas, the U.S.S. Constitution, which they commandeer. Later on, they spot a statue infested with Blue Meanies, who are battling squid-like creatures. Having heard of Four Sacred Streams from Jobs, the Remnants attempt to make the Meanies their allies by firing the Constitution's cannons at the statue. Instead, the Blue Meanies angrily return fire on the Remnants, killing Shy Hwang. In the confusion as the Remnants go below decks, Billy is thrown overboard by Tamara and Wylson is also thrown off by a massive wave. Mo'Steel notices the commotion and attempts to save them. Billy manages to take them to safety, but Wylson has drowned. The other Remnants meanwhile are now surrounded by Blue Meanies, completely defenseless.
 * Mutation: Mo'Steel and Billy encounter two of the Remnants that they accidentally left behind when they encountered the worms, Alberto Disalvo and his son Kurbick, who has had his skin and nerves surgically removed by Mother. They group together and find a chair linked to Mother, which Alberto sits in, resulting with his mind being scrambled. Meanwhile, the Blue Meanies, who had surrounded the Remnants in the previous book, retreat when Mother creates three ships to attack them and end up attacking the U.S.S. Constitution. The Remnants are saved when Mo'Steel is made a giant by Billy and destroys the ships. Billy then decides to sit the chair and the Remnants find themselves in a new environment, Billy's thoughts. Mo'Steel, Alberto and Kubrick meet up with the rest of the Remnants in a McDonald's, where they are attacked by an army of female warriors, presumably from a comic book Billy read as a kid. They barely manage to escape when they're attacked by Riders and Squids in a replica of Billy's old school. They escape again when the environment changes to Edward Hopper's "Nighthawks". Here they meet an image of Big Bill, created by Billy to communicate with the other Remnants while he interfaces with Mother, who is experiencing sadness from being abandoned by her creators, the Shipwrights; Mother had mutated Kubrick to look more like the Shipwrights.
 * Breakdown: Two other Remnants, Noyze and Doctor Cohen have been captured from the Blue Meanies, who are deciding what to do about the humans. Unbeknownst to them, Noyze, who had been deaf for part of her life, understands the sign language of the Meanies. Meanwhile, Mother offers the other Remnants to help her destroy the Blue Meanies, to which Yago willingly volunteers for. He then ends up in one of the chairs and the environment changes to an alternate version of the White House, where Mother provides Yago with a computer generated army from the Civil War. While Jobs, Violet and 2Face follow Yago to the Blue Meanie base, Mo'Steel and Kubrick meet up with Billy and find Yago in one of the chairs linked to Mother. Meanwhile, Yago's strike force is decimated by the Blue Meanies and Jobs notices Tamara's baby absorb one of the Blue Meanies. Kubrick is then able to remove Yago from the chair and place his father into it, but Mother kills him and Billy sends himself, Mo'Steel and Kubrick to the battlefield. With the battle over, 2Face accuses Tamara's baby of being a Shipwright and divides the Remnants into factions to either follow her or the baby. Jobs, Mo'Steel, Violet, Kubrick, Noyze, Olga and Doctor Cohen join 2Face while the rest join the baby. The two groups depart, each with the same destination in mind, the bridge of Mother.
 * Isolation: 2Face's group is heading for the bridge of Mother, but Tamara is taking a different course. Tamara meets with the Riders and participates in the Rule of Nine, where she must duel nine Riders to the death at once. Tamara kills the first eight and kills the last one with some slight intervention by Tate. Tamara gains control of the Riders to destroy the Blue Meanies in the baby's name and gain control of Mother. Tate returns to the others and reports her findings to the other Remnants; Tate had come with Yago's group only to protect Tamara, realizing that the baby was controlling her. She then decides to alert Jobs and 2Face of the danger. Along with Rodger Dodger and D-Caf, who decided he wanted a break from Yago, they steal some Rider hover-boards and alert the other Remnants, who have just avoided an attack from Squids, which Billy had indicated were automatons. Tamara arrives with the Riders and attack the Blue Meanies, who have gathered at the bridge. During the battle, the baby absorbs several dead Blue Meanies and takes on the true form of a Shipwright and ascends to the bridge with Tamara, closely followed by Billy, Jobs, Mo'Steel, and Tate. Billy duels the Shipwright while at the same time uses his mind to have Mo'Steel duel Tamara. Ultimately, Billy destroys the Shipwright when Mother intervenes in his favor, freeing Tamara in the process. He then leaves the bridge with Jobs and Mo'Steel (Tate decided to stay with Tamara) and forcefully ends the battle, angering Yago, who vows to destroy Billy.
 * Mother, May I?: Billy has enforced the Big Compromise, the aliens are to not attack the Remnants and in exchange the Remnants won't alter Mother's course. Three months later, while exploring Mother's lab, Jobs finds what he believes may be what's left of Earth. Knowing it will break the Big Compromise, he consults Billy, who says he can make Mother return to Earth if the Remnants so choose, and asks Jobs to search Mother's "basement", because Billy can't sense anything in there. While Jobs takes Mo'Steel, Kubrick, Tate, Anamull, Yago, and Tamara to the basement with him, some Blue Meanies attack Violet in her Greek villa and interrogate her about Yago's whereabouts, claiming that he'd been given a custom Blue Meanie weapon and deviating their fellows into turning against them, which attracts 2Face, Edward, and T.R. A small fight commences in which one of the Blue Meanies kills T.R. in an attempt to kill Edward. Violet, infuriated by this senseless act, changes her mind on her opposition of returning to Earth. Meanwhile, Jobs's and his group are attacked by other Blue Meanies searching for Yago. Some are killed by Yago's new weapon but the last one is absorbed by Amelia, one of the missing eighty that vanished from their berths on the Mayflower. She instructs Jobs to tell Billy not to alter Mother's course. However, Billy alters Mother's course before he and the others can deliver the message.
 * No Place Like Home: The Remnants are preparing for an inevitable battle with the Blue Meanies, and possibly the Riders. To protect them, Billy constructs a massive wall that only the Remnants can open from the inside. Noyze proposes attempting to negotiate with the aliens but 2Face argues against it. Yago meanwhile, is recruiting Blue Meanies who tell him that their brethren are preparing for a raid to test the Remnants' defenses. But late one night, Noyze and Doctor Cohen sneak out to attempt to negotiate with the aliens. They encounter a Blue Meanie that knocks them out and places a device onto Doctor Cohen that allows it to see into her memories and gather all the information it needs for its fellows to attack the Remnants; the device also badly damages Doctor Cohen's mind. Meanwhile, a man named Charlie is spotted and brought into the Remnants' territory. Olga and Violet restore him to health and Noyze returns with Doctor Cohen. The next day, the Remnants hold their own against a Rider attack but their defenses are decimated by the Blue Meanies. In the battle, it's revealed that Charlie is one of Amelia's two partners sent to kill Billy. He ends up attacking 2Face instead, causing an infuriated Kubrick to attack him. D-Caf is also killed in battle but Violet uses her newly revealed mutation to bring him back to life; she had the power to turn into a swarm of worms ever since waking up and had used it earlier to bring Rodger Dodger back to life after he accidentally killed himself playing with a Rider boomerang. When asked if she's still human, she replies, "Are any of us?"
 * Lost and Found: Kubrick and Doctor Cohen are listed as dead at the start of this book and Charlie has returned to Amelia and his other partner, Duncan. Grieved by Kubrick's death, 2Face decides she wants Violet's mutation so she can help her fellow Remnants. When Violet refuses, 2Face deliberately kills herself so Violet will give her the mutation; Violet refused because she had failed to save Tamara after she'd been killed by the Blue Meanies. Tate discovers she has a mutation as well when she spots Yago breaking curfew and her mouth grows big and bites him; Yago is saved only by intervention from Jobs. They arrive on Earth and find that it's nothing but a wasteland with no water and pillars of flames, one of which kills Burroway. Yago meets with the Troika (the name Billy gave Amelia's group) and makes a deal with them to abandon Billy on Earth and leave on Mother with him. He then sends his last Blue Meanie to spy on Jobs. The next morning, Jobs finds his newly planted tomato seed sprouting. As all the Remnants and Billy all gather around it, Yago takes off on Mother with the Troika, and unintentionally, Tate. The Remnants are left on the barren Earth along with four Blue Meanies and a pair of Riders. And unbeknownst to anyone, a girl named Echo has observed everything from an unnoticed view deck.
 * Dream Storm: Having been abandoned on Earth by Yago and the Troika, Anamull starts a fight with the Blue Meanies and Riders, killing two of the Meanies and prompting the other aliens to retreat. Billy, now disconnected from Mother, falls into a coma. Echo is now formally introduced as being an Alpha, part of a human colony who survived the Rock, who strongly believe in genetic perfection and decided to allow the Remnants to die. Another group, known as the Marauders, live out in the wild and their leader, Hawk, kills the Alpha leader, Woody, and forcefully takes more than the Marauders' fair share of food. Meanwhile, Jobs and Mo'Steel take the suits from the dead Blue Meanies to explore the area. While they're away, D-Caf accidentally eats Anamull when he loses control of the worms in his body. Jobs and Mo'Steel also get caught in a violent storm that makes them see things that can't possibly be real; Jobs sees San Francisco and Mo'Steel sees his grandmother making bread. They return to the others and Edward reports that he'd seen some people nearby, who are some of the Marauders. Edward leads the Remnants to where he spotted them, and they stumble into the Alphas' home where Hawk and some of the Marauders attack them. Mo'Steel kills Hawk with a Rider boomerang he and the other Remnants are taken to separate rooms. Mo'Steel wakes up and a Marauder woman named Aga says he is the new leader of the Marauders. When Mo'Steel asks to see the others, he finds that Billy is missing from the group.
 * Aftermath: Mo'Steel must now prove himself worthy of being leader of the Marauders by killing a Beast. He, along with the Remnants and Marauders, depart from the Alpha colony. Hawk's brother, Newton, is angry that Mo'Steel become leader as he had intended to become leader himself; he then plots the best ways to usurp Mo'Steel. During the journey, Mo'Steel learns that some of the Marauders are mutated humans rejected by the Alphas. Some of them, like Badger and Cocker, are decent people, and Olga befriends Aga. The Marauders also have a shaman among them named Sanchez, to whom Violet is attracted to. If any person created by the Alphas had any sort of disability, they were rejected and sent to live with the Marauders. They soon arrive in the "Twilight Zone" of Earth and the Marauders warn the Remnants of the Slizzers, which turn out to be mutated cockroaches, one of which steals and devours the child Tackie. Newton makes several attempts to take revenge on Mo'Steel. First he has Rattler attack Olga, but is killed by Mo'Steel. 2Face also sees the Marauders passing around a bag full of pellets and warns the others not to eat them. But when Mo'Steel refuses to marry Grost, Newton has Balder attempt to poison D-Caf, but Aga helps him recover. They now arrive at the lair of the Beasts, where Mo'Steel learns are mutated rats. Mo'Steel kills the leader as instructed and Newton attempts to kill him but is foiled by Edward. No sooner does Mo'Steel berate Newton, then they're all attacked by Savagers, a group of Marauders who turned against their fellows, and have allied themselves with the two Riders.
 * Survival: While the rest of the Remnants are trapped on Earth, Tate is trapped on Mother with Yago and the Troika. After gathering all the Blue Meanies and Riders for the Troika to devour, Yago attempts to feed Tate to the Troika. But Tate's new mutation, the Mouth, overcomes her and she eats Yago, whose consciousness is still alive in Tate's mind. Tate then falls asleep and sees a vision of the earth green again and even saw someone she knew to be Jobs's daughter. She then wakes up and finds one of the chairs interfaced with Mother and sits in it. She learns that Mother is feeling terrible pain because Billy is no longer with her and displays feelings to Tate by taking memories out of Tate's own mind. The Troika now emerge from cocoons and Amelia deliberately gets eaten by Tate while Duncan plants a virus into Mother, reducing her to a simple computer called Daughter. Tate also eats Charlie and has dreams of Billy merging with Mother on Earth people living on a green Earth. She along with Yago, Amelia and Charlie take control of Daughter and use her to launch Duncan into the vacuum of space. Charlie later takes over Tate's body but is killed when Tate, Yago and Amelia drive him insane and causes him to fade away. Tate, Yago and Amelia spend sixty years of peace traveling the stars trying to find new forms of life. When Yago requests to Tate that they return to Earth, Tate refuses, unwilling to return to what's left of Earth. Tate wakes up the next day and learns from Amelia that Yago has died of old age. Feeling responsible for Yago, Tate and Amelia come up with a plan to undo the damage of the Rock. Traveling through time and space Tate orders a rehabilitated Mother to crash into Asia where the Remnants originally landed, killing her and Amelia on impact.
 * Begin Again: The Remnants and Marauders emerge victorious against the Savagers, killing the two Riders and sustaining no casualties of their own. After the battle, Sanchez informs them that he can hear the Source calling to them. Mo'Steel sends Cocker to the Alpha colony but they refuse to come. Echo, who had volunteered some of DNA to make a new human is found out to be blind, and so the Alphas imprison Echo and her baby intending to leave them to die. Lyric, Mattock and Echo's mentor, Westie help Echo and her baby escape but Westie chooses to stay in the colony and instructs the others to leave her. They meet Cocker who takes them to the source with the others. The source is none other than Mother. Jobs, Mo'Steel, Violet, 2Face, Mattock, Newton and Sanchez enter Mother and find Tate's skeleton and a recording she took before crashing on Earth telling the Remnants that all they need is love and to listen to Billy, who has merged with Mother. Sanchez then has a vision of a green Earth. They return from Mother and inform the others. Newton doesn't believe that this green world is possible and intends to keep it from coming to pass. Sanchez stays inside Mother and learns from Billy that three elements are needed for a ritual to make Earth green, Mother, the Five, who were the other missing five besides the Troika, and Echo's child, who Jobs had named Lumina. Newton attempts to steal Lumina, but is foiled by the Remnants, prompting him to flee. 2Face, convinced that Billy is setting them up to fail attempts to kill Billy, resulting with Billy killing her but giving her a vision of her mother to die peacefully. Echo then willingly agrees to risk her baby's life and gives her to Billy. In the epilogue, the ritual has succeeded but 2Face's attack made Billy unable to survive the regreening. Jobs has married Echo and have named their next daughter after Tate, Mo'steel has married Noyze, who have one child and another on the way, Mattock and Lyric have married and Violet marries Sanchez. They have searched for the Alphas with no luck and there's no sign of Newton. At last, the survivors have peace.

title: Remnants (novel series)


text:
The Beaver Trilogy

The Beaver Trilogy (2001) is a documentary film directed by Trent Harris, featuring Richard LaVon Griffiths (also known as "The Beaver Kid" and "Groovin' Gary"), Sean Penn, Crispin Glover and co-starring Courtney Gains and Elizabeth Daily.

Description
The Beaver Trilogy combines three separate vignettes that were filmed at different times, in 1979, 1981, and 1984. The first, titled The Beaver Kid, is a short documentary about the exploits of "Groovin' Gary", a performer that filmmaker Harris happened upon while filming for a Salt Lake City, Utah news station. Harris was in the parking lot of his workplace, testing out a color video video camera that the station had just acquired, when he stumbled upon Gary taking photographs of their news helicopter. Gary immediately launched into a number of celebrity impressions, including John Wayne and Sylvester Stallone.

Several weeks after they first met, Harris traveled to the small town of Beaver, Utah and filmed Gary, an Olivia Newton-John obsessive, as he staged a talent show that featured Gary dressed in full drag singing the Newton-John song "Please Don't Keep Me Waiting". Gary refers to his onstage alter-ego as "Olivia Newton-Dawn".

The second installment, titled The Beaver Kid 2 features Sean Penn as "Groovin' Larry" Huff in a dramatic interpretation of the original documentary. It incorporated some scenes from the original documentary. The Beaver Kid 2 was shot on a budget of $100.

The trilogy is completed with The Orkly Kid, in which Crispin Glover reprises Penn's role, this time referring to his onstage persona as "Olivia Neutron Bomb". The Orkly Kid was shot in color film, is considerably longer in length and more professional-looking than the first two acts, and also features a number of new supporting characters and plot twists.

Availability
The filmmaker, Trent Harris, sells The Beaver Trilogy on DVD from his web store. As of 2007, the Salt Lake Film Society has a copy for rent which is available at the Tower Theatre. In August 2016 a documentary about it, titled Beaver Trilogy Part IV, was made available to stream on Netflix.

Critical reception
In an interview with Robert K. Elder for his book The Best Film You've Never Seen, director Phil Lord highlights the merits of the trilogy: "To me, it felt like it was a film school education in 83 minutes. It’s a great treatise in story-telling and the different ways you can tell a story just with subtle changes."

Radio
The film was also featured in the episode "Reruns" of the public radio show This American Life, which first aired December 6, 2002.

Sequel
In 2015 a documentary about the film, called Beaver Trilogy Part IV, was released. It examined the relationship between the original film's star Richard Griffiths and its director Trent Harris. It is narrated by Bill Hader.

Richard LaVon Griffiths, the original Groovin' Gary, died of a heart attack in Salt Lake City on February 2, 2009, at age 50.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: The Beaver Trilogy


text:
Wire (disambiguation)

A wire is a strand of drawn metal used especially in electrical conductors and fencing.

Wire or wires may also refer to:

Abbreviations

 * Wire, a covert listening device worn as a wire under a person's clothes
 * Wire, an informal term for a telegraph, or the act of using a telegraph
 * Wire service, a journalism-jargon term for news agency (a newswire or wire service)
 * Wire tap, police jargon for covert telephone-listening device
 * Wire transfer, a method of sending money directly between banks

Types of wire

 * Barbed wire, steel fencing wire
 * Chicken wire, a mesh of wire
 * Concertina wire, a type of barbed wire or razor wire
 * Copper-clad aluminium wire, inner aluminium core and outer copper cladding
 * Electrical wiring, electrical installation of cabling and associated devices
 * Electroluminescent wire, thin copper wire coated in a phosphor
 * Glass-coated wire, fine glass-coated metal filaments
 * Magnet wire, copper or aluminium wire coated with a very thin layer of insulation
 * Nanowire, 1-D structures used in nanoelectronics and nanowire battery anodes
 * Razor wire
 * Wire rope, twisted strands of metal wire
 * Wire recording, audio storage on a thin steel wire

People

 * Wíres (footballer) (born 1982), Brazilian football player
 * Coy Wire (born 1978), American footballer, television anchor, and correspondent
 * Edith Wire (1899-1973), American composer, pianist, and writer; Lester's sister
 * Lester Wire (1887–1958), inventor, Edith's brother
 * Nicky Wire (born 1969), musician with the Welsh rock band Manic Street Preachers
 * Kurt Wires (1919–1992), sprint canoer

Magazine

 * The Wire (magazine), cover title Wire, a British music magazine, founded in 1982

Groups

 * Wire (band), British punk/post-punk group (1976–present)

Albums

 * Wire (Third Day album), a 2004 album by Third Day
 * Wire (Wire album), a 2015 album by Wire
 * Wires (album), a 2001 album by Art of Fighting

Songs

 * "Wires" (song), by Athlete, 2004
 * "The Wire" (David Dallas song), featuring Ruby Frost, 2013
 * "The Wire" (Haim song), 2013
 * "Wire", a song by U2 from their 1984 album The Unforgettable Fire
 * "Wire", by Third Day from the album Wire, 2004
 * "Wires", by Red Fang from the album Murder the Mountains, 2011
 * "Wires", by The Neighbourhood, 2012

News sites

 * The Wire (India), an Indian news website
 * The Wire, a defunct website published by The Atlantic

Radio

 * WIRE (FM), a radio station at 91.1 FM licensed to Lebanon, Indiana
 * The Wire (radio program), an Australian current-affairs program
 * The Wire, Gaylord College of Journalism and Mass Communication's student radio station
 * WXNT, an Indianapolis, Indiana (1430 AM) radio station, which held the WIRE call sign from 1935 to 1989

Channels

 * Wire TV, a 1992–1995 UK cable television channel
 * WIRE-CD, a television station (channel 33, virtual 33) licensed to serve Atlanta, Georgia, United States

Series

 * The Wire, a 2002–2008 HBO police drama TV series

Episodes

 * "The Wire" (Curb Your Enthusiasm), the sixth episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm
 * "The Wire" (The Wire episode), the sixth episode of The Wire TV series
 * "The Wire" (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine), an episode of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Other uses in media

 * The Wire (JTF-GTMO), official weekly newspaper of Joint Task Force Guantanamo

Computing and telecommunications

 * Wire (software), an instant messaging application that supports voice and video calling
 * Wide-coverage Internet Repeater Enhancement System (WIRES), a digital transmission mode used in Yaesu amateur radio equipment
 * Wire data, data on the wire in a communications system or protocol
 * Wire protocol, a method of transmitting data
 * Wire Swiss, a software company headquartered in Switzerland that is best known for its messaging application of the same name

Organizations

 * NSW Wildlife Information Rescue and Education Service (WIRES), an animal welfare organisation in New South Wales, Australia
 * The WIRE project, a charitable organisation in England

Other uses

 * Warrington Wolves, a British rugby league team nicknamed The Wire
 * Wide Field Infrared Explorer (WIRE), a spacecraft intended to produce an infrared survey of the entire sky
 * Winged Reusable Sounding rocket (WIRES), by Japan
 * Wire Building, listed on the National Register of Historic Places in Washington, D.C.
 * Wire of Death or "the Wire", a lethal electric fence on the Dutch-Belgian border during World War I
 * "The wire", an elaborate obsolete con used in the film The Sting

title: Wire (disambiguation)


text:
Mami Kingetsu

Mami Kingetsu (金月 真美) is a Japanese voice actress and singer from Akashi, Hyōgo. She is currently affiliated with Aoni Production. She is best known for her role as Shiori Fujisaki in the Tokimeki Memorial series. Other notable roles include Izumi Himuro in Princess Nine, Nagisa Shiozaki in If I See You In My Dreams, Miss Merry Christmas & Stussy in One Piece, Rei Kazama in eX-Driver, Maki Kawasaki in Burn Up Excess, Li Xiangfei in Fatal Fury / The King of Fighters; and Da Ji in Warriors Orochi.

Discography

 * Albums
 * Tokimeki (ときめき) (Konami, 1996)
 * Catchy (Konami, 1996)
 * Summer Break (サマーブレイク) (Konami, 1997)
 * K-Brand (Konami, 1998)
 * Touch and Go (Konami, 1998)
 * From the Bests (Konami, 1999)
 * Hibiscus (ハイビスカス) (King, 2000)
 * Vintage (King, 2001)
 * Love Clue (King, 2001)
 * Watashi no Tsubasa (Toei, 2002)
 * Rainbow (Most, 2015)

 * Compilation albums
 * Treasure (たからもの) (Konami, 2004)

title: Mami Kingetsu


text:
Talk:Evolution of cetaceans

Untitled
"the structure of their ears, which contain an adaptation to underwater hearing that is possessed only by whales." Isn't this the crux of the whole thing? We readers need more information on this particular point. Wetman 06:25, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Proposal to remove references section
Both papers are now online at University of Michigan and Nature.com in pdf format, so I took the liberty of merging the references into external links, and hyperlinking to the documents. Certainly they will make useful resources on the page.
 * EXTREME ERROR. References are mandatory for articles. If they are linkable, by all means link them, but certainly do not move a reference to an external link section.--ZayZayEM 04:20, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Rodhocetus Correction
This page states, "The protocetids, which include Rodhocetus and Artiocetus, are another recent discovery. They lived around 45 million years ago. Their principal adaptation was flukes (horizontal bars) on their tails."

This, that Rodhocetus had a fluke, cannot be known at the present time.

Dr. Thewissen stated this in an email: " Rodhocetus tail is not known, it has been suggested that it has a fluke, it has been reconstructed that it was short (as you show it)."

pictures
this site

http://darla.neoucom.edu/DEPTS/ANAT/BasilAndDor.htm

linked to in another article has pictures that are "public access" and would be good to include in articles - Omegatron 15:42, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)

Pakicetus
This site says that Pakicetus did not hear well underwater: http://www.talkorigins.org/features/whales/

I've heard some people say that it could hear well underwater and others say that it couldn't. I think that Pakicetus may have had unusual ears, which later evolved into something that was good for hearing underwater.

Also, I just wanted to say that you are all doing a great job, I looked at this page several months ago, and the improvements you've all made since then are amazing. Thanks!

sizes
Dorudontids were dolphin-sized, about 5m long. That's what the article said. Dolphins are not that big. Maybe Killer-whale-sized. Dolphins are much smaller, maybe 5 ft. Can the author change this. --ChadThomson 04:40, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I've made an edit to this to clarify the size statement. However, we are all collectively, including you, the authors. Please be bold and edit as you see fit. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:01, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Sidenote: you are probably underestimating the size of dolphins a bit. I reckon the archetypal dolphin length is 3m/10ft. Only porpoises are 5ft. Killer Whales 25ft or more. But yeah, the wording wasn't that great. Pcb21 Pete 14:25, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Creationist website and pakicetid evidence questioning
An anonymous user has considerably altered the pakicetid section to suggest that the evidence for pakicetus as a proto-whale has been overstated. The user cites this creationist website which uses an article in Nature to point up the holes in the case. Lacking a scientific background I don't feel comfortable with adjusting this section, but I don't feel the changes deserve reverting either, since regardless of the creationist slant it's plainly true that the Nature article's words contradict the earlier version of the section. Could someone take a look and sort it out? The Singing Badger 00:13, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm sorry to say I was irritated enough simply to excise the objectionable material. Even in a world where the creationist position was epistemologically valid, the excised material would still have been objectionable because it was argument in a vacuum.  It did not even set out the orthodox view it was arguing against.  23 Jan 06.

I updated the entry under Pakicetus to include information from the Pakicetus entry. I also removed/reworded the last part of the entry to remove the creationist POV content at the end, which plainly contradicted the information at the beginning of the section.EvilOverlordX 21:56, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I reworded some of your changes; please double check my edits for accuracy and provide a citation if possible. The Singing Badger 22:39, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Sounds better than my original text. I added cites from Pakicetus pages, and an additional bit of evidence from Thewisson's web site on the teeth linking Pakicetus to fossil whales. EvilOverlordX 16:53, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Again overstatement of evidence
First of all they show complete skeletons. Nothing like that was discoverd. Just a few skull bones, jaw bones and spine. The rest was interpreted. The pics of the animals are very cute. However imaginary. They should show which bones were actually found and make sure people know the pics are figments of an artists imagination. let's be honest isnt there a controvery about that the whales came from a hippo like animal and not hoofed-mammals doesnt molecular biology show that the origin of whales is not certain. lets be honest

raspor 12:42, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Um, I hate to break it to you, but, hippos ARE HOOFED ANIMALS. Hippos are a kind of non-ruminating artiodactyl.  Molecular evidence shows that whales and hippos share a common ancestor, fossil evidence pointing towards the mesonychids, which were a group of carnivorous artiodactyls.--Mr Fink 16:17, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

i meant wolf-like mammals

you seem to know about this. was there not recently a controversy about the origins of whales?

raspor 16:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

 * It may be noted that raspor shows considerable enthusiasm for asking questions, but a consistent refusal to accept any answers. .. dave souza, talk 16:29, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

dave.

apok has given me a good answer. unfortunatley you seldom have.

do you believe that astrology can be falsified?

raspor 16:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I'm sorry to intrude, but, how does astrology, which is a form of fortunetelling that involves the movements of the stars and planets to give people advice on what to do the next day, figure into whale evolution?--Mr Fink 17:05, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

it all has to do with defining science. astrology is more than fortune telling. i dont believe in it at all but it is a great example.

we were talking about wether astroloyg is a scientific theory. i say yes. invalid but scientific

anyhow please tell me if you believe also there is a 'plethora' of whale transitional fossils

raspor 17:11, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Astrology is not scientific, at all. Since ancient times, the Gods have governed over it, and astrologers never used astrology to enhance the collective understanding of the Universe, like determining the size, temperature or distance of stars, unlike astronomy, they used it solely for the sake of their customers' love lives and planting seasons.--Mr Fink 17:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Mesonychids WERE wolf-like animals. In life, they would have resembled wolves with pig's feet.  The only recent controversy concerning whale origins involves whether or not whales share a more recent common ancestor with hippos, or mesonychids.--Mr Fink 16:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

thanks apok,

now you seem level headed. one editor said there is 'plethora' of mesonychids to whale tranistional fossils. in my research i found that to be incorrect. can you tell me your opinion on this.

raspor 16:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

thanks

 * He must be refering to the way the Early to Mid Eocene whale fossils, like Ambulocetus, Rodhocetus, Pakicetus, and Himalayacetus, not only had fully functional legs, but also bore striking similarities to the mesonychids. Information on the mesonychids tends to be somewhat obscure and or scarce on Google, though.  Have you tried Scholar Google ?--Mr Fink 17:05, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

mr fink,

do you also believe there is a 'plethora' of whale transitional fossils?

raspor 17:11, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Didn't I just answer your question with those four genera of legged whales already? These four, coupled with other legged whale genera, especially such as Ambulocetus from the Eocene show a very detailed transition from primitive artiodactyls to whales.  What makes you think that these haven't provided any information?--Mr Fink 17:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

do you also believe there is a 'plethora' of whale transitional fossils? you really didnt understand this question?

raspor 18:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * "Plethora" is a vague word when used as a query- and Mr. Fink's (or any other editor's opinion) on what constitutes a "plethora" is irrelevent to the improvement of the page. He has provided you with specific information instead of personal opinion, and as such he has illustrated more than was asked. --HassourZain 19:07, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

A superabundance; an excess. That is the on-line defintion. Does not seem vague to me. And it was other editors choice of words. The point is that it seems that many here are very uniformed or lack analyticals skills and are writing these articles which require both.

The are saying something is not 'scientific' without know what the term means. They refer to 6 fossil bones as a 'plethora'. They cannot logically walk through a concept. It is all rote learning and a sad commentary on the US education system

raspor 19:34, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The terms "superabundance" and "excess" are value-laden words that do not necessary have a strict meaning, either. They express an opinion, not a falsifiable (as you've been bringing up) assertion. Six fossils, at least in my opinion, constitute strong evidence in favor- and as far as whether six constitutes an excess, in a specific area with such a dearth of preserved information, more than one is significant.
 * I know it's hard to avoid, but please try not to use talk pages to extol a personal viewpoint unless it constructively adds to the discussion. Raising small points that do not add any substance to the discussion or article itself is generally not a useful way to spend time editing. --HassourZain 19:44, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Plethora was not my choice of a word. Interesting that you told me that raising small points does not add substance but that is exactly what you did. No to me it is not reasonable to base the theory that whales came from land animals on a couple of very partial skeletons. What people should know is how much evoltuion is based on guessing. There are few experiments. Mostly interpretation. How do we know that those were not just defomities. To make a theory and then scramble for any evidence is not the way to go. It is unobjective. Darwinism cannot be falsified and is not a scientific theory. Popper agreed with that.

Are you going to waste time bringing up another small point?

raspor 19:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Incorrect! I was refuting your small point. Additionally, your assertion of making a theory before observing evidence means absolutely nothing without evidence. :) --HassourZain 19:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

 * the point is there is little evidence of whale evolution and what evidence there is has been interpreted unobjectively.

 * at least be honest raspor 20:11, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't disrupt the flow of conversation by neglecting to indent, please. To address your point, you are incorrect. There is plenty of evidence that points to the evolutionary path of whales, and I see no evidence that it has been interpreted in anything other than an objective fashion. Would you like to provide some to the contrary? --HassourZain 20:14, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * No, Raspor, you're the one wasting our time with small points. I know what "plethora" means, what we want to know is what you mean by "plethora of transitional whale fossils"?  You fail to, if not refuse to realize that an enormous amount of information can still be gleaned from a few bones.  On the other hand, do realize that we have found COMPLETE whale skeletons from the Eocene, which gives us a good idea of what whales were like early in the group's evolutionary history.  Perhaps if you actually took the time to read about whale evolution and paleontology, you would understand this.--Mr Fink 20:04, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

yes but i believe in accuracy. it gives a wrong impression. there is NOT a plethora of whale fossil bones and to say to is to give a false impression.

i believe in accuracy sorry.

raspor 20:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * There's not a plethora of whale fossil bones, but there is a plethora of evidence within the bones that are available. Speaking with accuracy to what Mr Fink was saying, that is. --HassourZain 20:10, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

wow so a few bones is a super-abundance? that seems fakey to me.

anyhow you will agree that there are few if any complete skeletons, and maybe 20 or so bones that darwinists use to say that the evidence is overwhelming?

raspor 20:17, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You are deliberately confusing the terms. There are a few bones, from which lots of evidence can be drawn. --HassourZain 20:19, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * To use an analogy, in a court of law, it takes only a tiny amount of DNA residue to provide immense amounts of positive assertions of information and evidence regarding a given person's actions, presence, or what have you in a certain place, with a specific item, etc. The material's physical size can be minuscule but provide strong evidence. More material evidence only makes the case stronger. --HassourZain 20:22, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

so you agree that there are very few transiitional fossils. thanks

DNA has lot of info in it. thousands of times of what few bones has

thanks for proving my point.

please do not respond

raspor 20:26, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * He was making an analogy, not agreeing with you. Your opinions and wordgames can not wish away the fact that there are transitional fossils of whales, with many recent whole skeletons found, and that libraries' worth of information has been extracted from those fossils.--Mr Fink 20:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Mr. Fink, and I am free to respond to whatever I please on talk pages. Your assertion that DNA has lots of information while bones have little is disingenuous. You have failed to understand my meaning. --HassourZain 20:41, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * "many recent whole skeletons found"
 * where? when?
 * libraries worth of interpretations
 * raspor 20:42, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * and
 * Try looking there--Mr Fink 20:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) Raspor, please stop disrupting the talk page with unindented text. Standard formatting states that you should indend using a colon once for each indent above you, plus one. Additionally, place comments after the last comment on the indent line that you are responding to (instead of bumping mine out of the way as you did). --HassourZain 20:49, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Mr. Raspor is obviously just a Creationist or ID believer (well same thing really), trying to push that POV because he's angry that Evolutionary facts a presented on Wikipedia. He has demonstrated that there is absolutely no point in trying to debate with him (just like all the others like him), they will simply never get it. --Hibernian 05:03, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I was told that not indenting was disruptive. So I guess you are dispruptive. anyhow I really feel it should be mention that there is not a 'plethora' of intermed whale fossils. When people look into it an find out its a lie it makes them disbelieve the whole shabang. Anyhow so you are saying that Creationists or ID believer should not have a say here. I think that is what is going on here raspor 13:14, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * They should have a say on here, but they should be proportionally represented in the article. In order to preserve neutral point of view (one of the most important parts of Wikipedia is the neutral point of view policy, which insists that proportional representation be given to ideas. The fact is that the research community does not think that there is a lack of evidence regarding cetecean evolution, and as such it would not be possible to say in a neutral fashion "There is not a plethora etc." in the article. --HassourZain 14:54, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

 * but can it be mention the actually number of bones that are used to make the cute pictues and cute skeletons. and here is why. untill very recently i thought that there were thousands of fossils that showed us all this transitions. now a realize in many case there is not even 20% of a skeleton. i thought that evolution was gradual. but now i found out that most creatures appeared suddenly. i beleieved that ontogeny repcaps phologeny. that was a lie. and darwinism is not as validated as gravity. that is a lie. see since no one is allowed to criticize darwinism all these error are propounded sometimes for decades. i think morphogenic fields is where this will lead. research in that will be stifled as long as darwinism is a sacred cow.   well i better stop. i have found out that here doubting darwinism = disruption. and the comments will be removed or moved.    if anyone want to work with me to make this article more objective visit me in my private quarters  raspor 15:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that one important thing to remember is the way the scientific method works. It draws a conclusion given the evidence it has access to- the explanation of natural selection as a mechanism of evolution has some very strong evidence given the limited field from which it pulls in this case. Other editors are not after you for doubting Darwin's theory of natural selection, they are after you for wanting to give undue weight for a position that does not have as strong a standing in the world of research. I certainly think that any scientific proposition that has not been explicitly proven but which is drawn from inductive/deductive logic should always be open to question. For the most part, though, many people who DO want to question it have an agenda that wishes to advance superstitious or nonscientific thinking- that is to say, thinking that does not have its roots in drawing conclusions from evidence, or other fallacious reasoning. --HassourZain 15:41, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * So to recap, poor raspor has now found that a few fossil bones can be used by palaeontologists to reconstruct an estimate of the whole skeleton, and so provide the basis for an artist's impression. And so has lost all belief in "darwinism". Of course the "plethora" term came from a response on a talk page, and isn't in the article: one person's plethora is another's paucity. Next week, raspor may find that rainbows are caused by the physics of light so that each one is not miraculously created by God to celebrate the flood. Or alternatively s/he may find that physicists don't personally examine every water droplet, and so lose all belief in physics. .. dave souza, talk 15:28, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

 * since doubting any aspect of darwinims is considered disruption here. if anyone wants to see my response go to my talk pageraspor 15:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Why is it impossible for this person to comprehend that a) there have been several complete skeletons of primitive Eocene whales found, b) that it is possible for scientists to gather information from incomplete skeletons, and c) that there is an enormous difference between "doubting," "dissidence," and "scientific examination"?--Mr Fink 15:41, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You keep beating me to the gun, Apokryltaros. :) I just wanted to comment here as well that all cases for evolution are drawn from inductive and deductive conclusions about biological progression and evidence- it certainly can be questioned, and MUST if evidence is presented which is contradictory to the conclusions so far. The matter is, though, that there has not been any positive evidence presented against it, only gaps in the map which can be filled, as all inductive reasoning results in. --HassourZain 15:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

POV issues
This article is a great start, but it needs to be unbiased, adapting for both evolutionists and creationists. Yuser31415 (Editor review two!) 00:40, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Uh, I hate to break it to you, but, you do must realize that a) Wikipedia articles are allowed to be biased towards a particular view that the most evidence supports, b) Biologists and paleontologists assume that whales evolved from primitive artiodactyls most closely related to either the mesonychids or the hippotami, or both, c) Creationists believe that God poofed whales into existence as they look now, on the 4th or 5th day of Creation 6000 years ago, and d) the Fossil record, particularly that of the Eocene period, supports b), and not c), therefore e) the evidence provided by the Fossil Record is the reason why this article is biased towards biologists and paleontologists.
 * In other words, even though there is a small minority of people who think that the Earth's Moon is made out of cheese, Wikipedia is under no obligation to provide a voice for this particular view.--Mr Fink 01:42, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

 * While Fink isn't precisely correct about policy, it is close to how he describes it. Essentially, the undue weight clause of WP:NPOV states that sufficiently minority views should not be mentioned because to do so by nature gives them undue weight. JoshuaZ 01:58, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Even, if that's a correct interpretation of policy, that still shouldn't prevent adding text that is validly critical of whale evolution. And it shouldn't really matter who makes those arguments. --41.135.17.23 (talk) 14:46, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, all of the so-called "criticisms" that the vast majority of editors who bring this topic up are always myriad rewordings of either "evolution of anything never occurred because I don't feel like learning about it," and or "evolution of anything never occurred because it contradicts and gravely offends my religious beliefs." And yes, it does matter who makes such arguments, as Creationists and other science-deniers do not reject evolution for scientific or even logical reasons, what with this page having a scientific topic, and all.  Furthermore, if Wikipedia does pander to a fringe minority, it would compromise the quality of the article.--Mr Fink (talk) 15:11, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Intelligent Design is not Science
Does Wikipedia provide some sort of label for exterior link, such as "Opposing Views" to established scientific findings? I have a real problem with the new link added. The page hints at lack of smooth transitions between earliest whales and modern, of course, this should be, considering an estimated 10% of fossils is all which have been presently recovered and the gap may be larger than this, some fossils may never be found. The link provided is certainly not science if it is an "ID" perspective on whale evolution (due that no empirical evidence for intelligent design exists), but readers may not know the difference. Further, I do not know what peculiar views on God designing or lack thereof have to do with whale evolution in the first place! I really do not feel the link belongs on the page at all. It has nothing to do with "cetacean evolution", however it does have something to do with Intelligent Design. I would prefer some to review this link, and see if it actually provides credible information on "evolution of cetaceans".
 * What you write is a bit confusing, but how is Neodarwinian macroevolution more scientific then postulations of intelligent design? 41.135.17.23 (talk) 15:19, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Evolutionary Biology is a science because A) there is evidence for evolution occurring, and B) it provides explanations on how and why evolution occurs. Intelligent Design is not scientific at all because Intelligent Design makes no attempt to explain anything, merely using "DESIGNERDIDIT" as a handwave to stop scientific inquiry and avoid doing hard work.  If Intelligent Design was scientific to begin with, then Intelligent Design proponents would be easily able to explain how it is science.  But proponents have never ever bothered to do so.
 * Having said that, please stop soapboxing to imply that Evolution is not scientific simply because you have no interest in learning about it.--Mr Fink (talk) 15:26, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

It should be in an opposing views section to itself if this link is even allowable by conservative or liberal standards, clearly implied that this is not science, neither related to actual evidence for cetacean evolution. *yawn* If every opposing view are added to the external links, there won't be any room for legitimate scientific links on cetacean evolution.

The contributor apparently has contributed very limited information to Wikipedia, thus giving no indication of their comprehension of the complexity of this issue, and seems interested in Evangelism. This page was not intended to evangelize, but to provide up to date information on the Evolution of Cetaceans, and an "ID Perspective," is merely this, an Intelligent Design perspective, and belongs categorized under Intelligent Design...

 * [Whale Evolution - Dr Marc Surtees brings an ID perspective] Removed URL to spam link from talk page.

Readers are forced to ask themself, " What even is an ID perspective"? It is an intelligent design question, it should be on Wiki's intelligent design entry, which is by all means, unrelated to the issue cetacean evolution. Personally I do not feel such links belong on this page, unless there is empirical evidence to support the information.

It is reasonable, if a section were added to this page which provided disclaimer of sorts, a clear explanation of the Opposing Views and yet, why they are *not* based on scientific evidence. Provide a couple links to outside sources to humor the opponents to evolution. I feel this would be more than reasonable, yet, by acknowledging, it would still be giving their view too much attention and credibility. That is to say, are links to the Flat Earth Society found on Earth Geology or Geography pages, or links to outdated science? Such views are religion, not science. Beyond this, Intelligent Design simply does not belong on this page at all. Cetacean evolution is not even in dispute, it is a matter of documented fact today. Such links certainly do not belong among legitimate sources/references, only to confuse readers which are fact and which, religious views.

Update: the contributor of the Intelligent Design link was apparently a vandal and "rebuttal" link removed from whale by Mnemeson.

—The preceding (-Sharon Mooney) unsigned comment was added by Edwardtbabinski (talk • contribs) 13:10, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

Category
It has been that we make subcategories for the Category Evolutionary biology. Now I wish to place this along with human evolution, horse evolution into their own category. The only problem is what can it be called and should there be one? Enlil Ninlil 05:17, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Indohyus?
If anybody has a link to put Indohyus as a reference as to a possible ancestor of cetaceans I strongly recommend it. I recommend a stable news article of long standing duration. Lighthead þ 02:10, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
 * See the Indohyus article here. Lighthead þ 02:15, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Protungulatum and Chriacus?
If, according to the family tree showing the evolution of Cetaceans (amongst others), Protungulatum and Chriacus are in fact ancestors, shouldn't they be mentioned in the article? --Maurice45 (talk) 18:07, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Certainly, Protungulatum deserves at least a brief mention as being the earliest ungulate ever. I don't know about Chriacus, though, as arctocyonids (which it is) aren't terribly relevant to cetacean evolution.--Mr Fink (talk) 18:16, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Small brain equals solitary existence?
The article states that "[t]hey had small brains; this suggests they were solitary and did not have the complex social structure of some modern cetaceans." I changed the last part, which originally just said "modern whales." I didn't know baleen whales had "complex social structures"? To my original point, how does one equate small brain size to a solitary existence? Unlike what the sentence originally stated, many relativley large-brained baleen whale species lead (for the most part) a solitary existence. Anyone suggest a way to correct the sentence in question? Jonas Poole (talk) 16:27, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

 * Indeed; birds are social, and they have.. well.. "bird brains". For that matter, some INSECTS are social. If brain size really has something to do with sociality, there should really be a refference. 76.64.156.168 (talk) 12:55, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

 * The article refers to the "complex social structure of some modern cetaceans", which seems rather different in kind from the much simpler social behavior of insects and birds. However, I agree that it definitely needs a reference. Otherwise, for all we know, it is only the opinion of the original editor... 80.235.57.239 (talk) 08:16, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

This article is very confusing.
Do the different creatures go in order of how cetacean supposedly evolved to become dolphins and whales today, or is each section a new theory of how they originated? Thank you. 209.151.52.192 (talk) 05:43, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Other than the first part of the Earliest ancestors section which discusses the Mesonychids, it seems to be a pretty straight forward explanation of modern theory on whale evolution to me. I'm not an expert on the subject though. Can you be more specific about your complaint? -- Dougie WII (talk) 07:27, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

 * I can see what the OP is saying here in that perhaps the structure of the article could be improved to clearly illustrate the theorised evolutionary course. I was thinking actually each section may benefit simply by having the approximate time period included (e.g. Ambulocetids and remingtonocetids (50-49 MYA)). This would show that the sections are chronological or otherwise? Unfortunately, in many cases the article referenced (e.g. Protocetids) does not exist so I can't give a complete set of dates at this time. Does anyone have any further thoughts? -- Nick Ottery (talk) 10:57, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Terrestrial Origins
The DNA and embryological evidence of the terrestrial origins of cetaceans needs to be added to the list. While accurate, the current three bullets seem incomplete and flimsy. -Glyph250

Why not place the pictures of the actual bones found...?
... of the alleged intermediate fossils within the evolution form land mammals to cetaceans? --41.135.17.23 (talk) 14:41, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * A) Yes, as soon as we get more public domain photographs of them into Wikimedia and figure out how to insert them into the article without making it look cluttered, and B) Your use of the word "alleged" makes it sound like you're too reluctant to bother looking in search engines like Google, I mean, yes there are bones and skeletons of land-dwelling whales and their immediate ancestors. Then again, if whales aren't descended from land-dwelling ancestors as you're implying, then why is there no evidence of them being magically poofed into existence as according to the Bible?--Mr Fink (talk) 15:20, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that images of actual skeletons are more "citable" than restorations, and we do actual have such photos of most of those animals. FunkMonk (talk) 15:28, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Images
Is there a better way we could place the images so it does not look so scattered and messy. The necessary image clutter makes the page hard to read. Suggestions?  A. Z. Colvin  •  Talk  02:50, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Major Editing
Hi all, I'm intending to add contents into this page, and at the same time reorganise the description for each family. For each family, I'm trying to group their characteristics into General, Skull morphology and Postcranial morphology for the time being, starting from Pakicetus. Since I'm new here, if I made some mistakes with anything at all, please do let me know. (especially with the syntax.) Thanks and cheers. G1noah (talk) 19:00, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

 * To previous authors, I have integrated most of the previous contents into the present one, without deleting them directly. G1noah (talk) 16:25, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

 * Done with adding more information to families within order Archaeoceti. Will continue working on this article. For more information please visit my talk page. G1noah (talk) 11:16, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

graphical timeline
The article is missing an easy to grasp timeline of cetacean evolution. For each proposed ancestor of whales one has to read the whole paragraph to find out when and where they lived. Also, how to include the new finding in http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44867222/ns/technology_and_science-science/ about a pretty old (49 mya) fully aquatic archaeocete (btw, this species is missing altogether in the article).Northfox (talk) 01:51, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Discussion on title of taxon evolution pages
Hi, There is a thread here you may be interested in, about a consistent naming for articles dealing with evolution of taxa. Thanks! -- Cycl o pia talk  17:06, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

A Few Ideas
I believe this page could use a few additions in some areas Cascioli.4 (talk) 00:03, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I believe the page should go into a little more detail about the loss of hind limbs and the causes or benefits that came from it.
 * Try to find information about what ecological reasons led to the change from teeth to filter-feeding.
 * Add a section about skull morphology on baleen whales as it is different from ancestral versions.

Here are some general suggestions that I thought would be helpful to the end of the article.

1. Since there is a section about early baleen whales and early dolphins, it may be a good idea to add a section about early porpoises since they're also a part of the Cetaceans. In general, too, porpoises are barely discussed in the article.

2. In the "Early Echolocation" section, it may be useful for readers to have more background information about echolocation and why it has been so helpful for Cetaceans. Currently, the section discusses where echolocation probably originated, but information about why echolocation stuck around to modern Cetaceans and how it developed/evolved over time is important to include as well.

3. In the "Skeletal Evolution" section, more information and research should be included. The current information seems disconnected, short, and lacking in research evidence. Skeletal evolution is one of the biggest evolutionary topics for Cetaceans, so expanding and organizing this section would probably be useful for readers.

Doan.77 (talk) 13:02, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

 * I agree with the thought on adding more detail on the loss of hind limbs, considering it is one important transitions from land to water. Another idea, I have added a few points to the pelvic bone section of the skeletal evolution. I think this section could go way more in depth. One last idea is maybe a section on why some think the transition from land to water occurred

Iwais.1 (talk) 21:17, 1 October 2014

Minor Contradiction
The intro section ends with the sentence: 'Social bonds between different species can sometimes cause interbreeding, which always results in infertile hybrids when it occurs.' There is no added citation to support this claim. However, another Wiki article on the 'Wholphin' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wholphin mentions the female offspring of a bottlenose dolphin and false killer whale that proved to be fertile on several occasions. The statements attesting to this are well cited. RobotBoy66 (talk) 13:08, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Good catch, ; as the section on social structure-driven ongoing evolution demonstrates, hybridization wiht fertile offspring is by no means unknown in cetaceans. I don't know what that claim was doing there. Removed. -- Elmidae (talk · contribs) 13:47, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

"fully aquatic"
Are they fully aquatic because they don't have to go to land to calf? Does the fact that they have to surface to breathe air not count? --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 18:34, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
 * First question yes, obviously, and second question, no, considering as how no obligately aquatic amniote tetrapod has ever been able to dispense with air-breathing.--Mr Fink (talk) 20:10, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:54, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Protocetus BW.jpg

title: Talk:Evolution of cetaceans


text:
Talk:Norteña

Should this not be merged with Norteño (music)?

 * It should be merged because "Norteña" is another name for "Norteño," which is the most commonly used term. Besides, the content seems to be only a summary of the Norteño article. I'm now merging this article. - Stevey7788 23:55, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Norteña


text:
Barnes, New South Wales

Barnes is a small town in the far central south part of the Riverina and situated about 11 km north of Moama and 13 km north of Echuca.

Because of geography, it is in the sphere of influence of the adjoining state of Victoria, which explains why its railway connection goes to Victoria.

Barnes Post Office opened on 1 January 1928 and closed in 1972.

title: Barnes, New South Wales


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stackronym

Stackronym was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE

Interesting, but neologism; Google gives 23 hits, mostly saying "i made up a new word!" --Golbez 06:38, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)

 * Kind of cute, BJAODN. I hope it catches on and we can put it back into the main article space someday. - RedWordSmith 07:27, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I happen to think it's a perfectly cromulent word.
 * The above was added by an anon IP whose only contribution was this vote. I hope he feels embiggened by it. --Golbez 08:07, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)

 * Delete as a neologism. — siro  χ  o  08:14, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. This is somewhat the same thing as a recursive acronym.Garrett Albright 08:51, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. This should belong either in wiktionary or the acronym page. Can never be encyclopedic on its own. [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|(talk)]] 12:09, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Amusing, but a neologism. Nadavspi 21:48, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete: A neologism, and not really a good one (portmanteau word already exists, plus agglutination). Geogre 00:42, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. The article needs expansion, but it's a term I've heard people use before.  It's not the same as a recursive acronym.  A stackronym is an acronym where at least one of the letters stands for another acronym, which may also be a stackronym.  There are stackronyms that are not recursive acronyms, and there are recursive acronyms that I wouldn't count as stackronyms.  Perhaps the phrasing should be made clearer so people don't get confused and think it's deletion-worthy? Factitious 02:48, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * 'Delete'. Wikipedia is not the place to make up new words, if it has had greater use outside of Wikipedia then it would be a good article to reinstate. - 63.197.31.110
 * Keep/Merge Although the word itself isn't in very common usage, the concept is more common than you would think. This disussion shows a good number of examples of the concept, and does include the term stacronym in it, although I'll admit it is reffered to as a neologism even in that discussion.  Even if the term stackronym is not yet in common usage, at least the concept itself deserves a mention in the acronym writeup. --Nynexman4464 06:39, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * here is another, earlier, reference to the concept of a 'second order acronym'

 * Delete - I like it and hope it catches on, too, but until it does it doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. ClockworkTroll 06:48, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete - yet, I'm overwhelmed by an odd sensation of guilt and confusion. Barneyboo 00:55, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep--PlasmaDragon 21:22, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like other '/delete' pages is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.