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Otago Daily Times

The Otago Daily Times (ODT) is a newspaper published by Allied Press Ltd in Dunedin, New Zealand. The ODT is one of the country's four main daily newspapers, serving the southern South Island with a circulation of around 26,000 and a combined print and digital annual audience of 304,000. Founded in 1861 it is New Zealand's oldest surviving daily newspaper – Christchurch's The Press, six months older, was a weekly paper until March 1863.

Its motto is "Optima Durant" or "Quality Endures".

Founding
The ODT was founded by William H. Cutten and Julius (later Sir Julius) Vogel during the boom following the discovery of gold at the Tuapeka, the first of the Otago goldrushes. Co-founder Vogel had learnt the newspaper trade while working as a goldfields correspondent, journalist and editor in Victoria prior to immigrating to New Zealand. Vogel had arrived in Otago in early October 1861 at the age of 26 and soon took up employment at the Otago Colonist, which was owned and edited by William Lambert. Within several weeks he left and joined its rival the weekly Otago Witness newspaper as editor and also became its co-owner when he purchased a half share in the business from Cutten. The business becoming Cullen and Vogel. Vogel convinced Cutten that due to the explosion due to the gold rush in population (from 12,691 in 1860 to over 29,000 by the end of 1861) now was the time to publish a daily newspaper.

Originally styled The Otago Daily Times, the ODT was first published on 15 November 1861, making it New Zealand's oldest surviving daily newspaper. The first issue which had four pages was sold for threepence and was printed by hand on a cylinder printing machine imported from Melbourne. It soon had a circulation of 2,750 compared with the 250 of the Otago Witness. From the start, the ODT held a strong position among South Island newspapers. Vogel was editor, with the day to day commercial management under the control of Benjamin Farjeon, who had come to Dunedin from Victoria in 1861. Farjeon also acted as sub-editor, contributor and frequently compositor. During Farjeon's time at the ODT he wrote the novels. Shadows on the Snow (1965) and Grif: a story of colonial life (1866) and he composed and set them in type in the office of the newspaper. Daniel Campbell, who had been Cutten's manager for some years, became manager of the mechanical departments of the business.

The transformation of Dunedin in a short space of time into a large and prosperous town eager for news combined with the literary control of Vogel and management skills of Farjeon lead to the ODT rapidly gaining readers and advertisers. Vogel's strong political views saw an outlet in the ODT's pages, notably for advocacy of provincial government. The newspaper's original literacy staff consisted of Vogel, chief reporter Edward Thomas Gillon and William Harrison. Another reporter that Vogel later hired, was Ebenezer Fox who went on to have a notable career in politics.

By early March 1862 its number of pages had doubled. Raising demand lead to a steam-powered two-cylinder printing press being imported from the United Kingdom, which was fortunate as it was being used to printed a circulation of 7,000 copies by August 1862. This was despite an increase in the newspapers price to sixpence due to a combination of increasing newsprint and labour costs.

Vogel also acted as editor of the Otago Witness, which for a period was practically only a reprint of the ODT.

The ODT was originally published from premises in Princes Street, but within a fortnight of its first issue a fire on 1 December 1861 swept through the premises. William Lambert the owner of the Otago Colonist offered the use of his printing plant, with the condition that as he was deeply religious, they could use it until after midnight on what was to him the sacrosanct Sunday. The ODT appeared the next day reduced in size and with no advertisements. Following repairs, the business moved back into the premises and stayed there until they moved to a new building at the corner of Dowling and Burlington Streets at the foot of Bell Hill in 1879. It stayed here until 1928 when it moved into larger premises on the other side of Burlington Street facing Queen's Gardens, where they stayed until 1977.

As more and more people were attracted to the goldfields the business had trouble retaining employees, despite paying staff such as compositors double that of those in similar positions in Melbourne. It was soon necessary to offer compositors another 50% increase in an attempt to retain them. As a result, they could earn £12 to 14 a week during the height of the gold rush. Despite this on one occasion all but one compositor had left for the gold fields, which required Farjeon (who had trained as a printer's devil and then as a compositor) to step and assist in the publication.

In 1862 the Evening News was launched as an afternoon rival and by 1863 had achieved a circulation of 1,000, but it closed the next year. It is not to be confused with the Evening Star which launched on 1 May 1863 as a daily afternoon newspaper (selling for a penny) and which was the longest-lived rival to the ODT.

Impact of the telegraph
Vogel identified that the completion of telegraph lines as the country was opened up gave the daily ODT an advantage The completion of a telegraph line from Campbelltown later Bluff) to Dunedin in August 1862 in particular allowed the ODT to gain quicker access to international news as Bluff was the first New Zealand port of call for ships carrying English and Australian newspapers before travelling up the coast to Dunedin. Vogel arranged for summaries of the foreign news to be prepared by an employee of the Argus newspaper in Melbourne, put on a mail ship and then dispatched by telegraph to the ODT when it arrived in Bluff. When the telegraph line reached Hokitika, he also arranged for international news arriving upon a ship to also be dispatched from there. Originally, he reserved the information of the sole use of the ODT. Once a telegraph line was opened across Cook Strait, Vogel made his telegrams available for sale to Wellington and soon after other North Island newspapers. This ability for a daily to more quickly convey the latest news to the public gave the ODT an advantage over a weekly newspaper. As a result, Cutten's and Vogel's own Otago Witness declined in importance and slowly became a digest of reprints from its daily sister and original material oriented towards country readers.

The Otago Colonist which had previously been a weekly responded by becoming a daily in July 1862. Its owners launched in early January 1863 a new daily newspaper called the Daily Telegraph and reverted the Otago Colonist to a weekly with a change of name to the Weekly Colonist. This made Dunedin the first New Zealand city to have two daily newspapers until both the Daily Telegraph and Weekly Colonist closed on 9 April 1864. Twelve weeks later the Otago Daily Mail was launched but it was not competitive and had closed by April 1865.

In January 1863 the ODT halved its price to threepence (3d).

In 1864 the ODT was successfully sued by the New Zealand Banking Corporation for libel after it had claimed that it was not a legally constituted joint stock bank. The bank was awarded £500 in damages which highlighted to Cutten, a man of a contented disposition, that as well as the pressures of producing a daily edition there was also sufficient financial risks. This was enough to induce him to sell his share in the newspaper to Vogel in November 1864. Vogel took on Farjeon as his junior partner in what became J. Vogel & Co.

By early 1865 the business was struggling financially. With Vogel beginning his political career, the partners sold a majority shareholding in the business in March 1865 to a number of prominent Dunedin citizens on the condition that they were kept on as manager and editor respectively. The new owners formed a public company in 1860, the Otago Daily Times and Witness Newspapers Co. Ltd which was funded by issuing £6,000 worth of debentures at 10% offering interest. Vogel, John Bathgate, F.C. Simmons and James Rattray as directors. Farjeon retired as business manager in December 1867, and Campbell was appointed in his place.

Ousting of Vogel
The end of the gold rush lead to Dunedin enduring a major economic downturn from 1868 to 1869. As Vogel became more and more involved in the politics. The other more commercially minded directors who were by now Rattray and W.D. Murison with Bathgate now the company secretary, aware of the need for the newspaper to earn sufficient income pay the interest on the debentures came to believe that Vogel's use of the newspaper to advocate on behalf of his political beliefs, was impacting on the business. Murison and Bathgate also had political interests which may have entered into the decision to dispense with Vogel's services in April 1868. The rest of the entire editorial staff were also soon let go. At an extraordinary general meeting of the company in July of that year Vogel made an unsuccessful attempt at retaining his position by offering to lease the company. His offer was rejected by 96 to nil. Using the offices of the Evening Star Vogel in partnership with others launched the New Zealand Sun on 16 November 1868 as a morning rival to the ODT but it lasted only until 20 March 1869. Following the departure of Vogel, the newspaper became an opponent of his political policies and thus once he became a member of the government it was anti-government from 1869 to 1876. One of the people sacked from the ODT in the purge of editorial staff in 1868 was George Bell who in January 1869 started the evening daily Evening Independent. In June of that same year Bell purchased the Evening Star and merged the Evening Independent into it.

Telegram libel case
Meanwhile, the editorship ODT was given to lawyer George Burnett Barton. Despite circulation falling from its high of 7,000 copies in 1862 and the departure of Vogel the ODT remained the province's dominant newspaper through the 1860s. Poor economic conditions in the early 1870s made things difficult for the ODT. In 1871 it saw off a threat from the short lived daily The Southern League and Daily Advertiser which began publication in early July and which despite a name change to The Daily Advertiser and Southern League it had closed by 10 November 1871. Barton was not however a success, as a number of libel actions were taken against the newspaper, most notably a celebrated case which became known as the "Telegram Libel Case". In October 1870 Barton had published articles in the alleging that the Telegraph Department delayed news telegrams for the ODT until summaries had been given to pro-government newspaper in Wellington. The government took exception to these comments. Vogel was serving in a senior position in the government and there was suspicions that as Vogel's departure from the newspaper had been somewhat acrimonious, he still harboured a significant grudge: "Mr Barton, as our readers may remember, is the ex-editor of the Otago Daily Times, a paper which supports political views inimical to the present Government, a member of which, Mr Vogel, was his predecessor in the editorial chair. Mr Vogel, it appears, alleges that the proprietors of the journal in question did not treat him well, and in order to be revenged on them he has never ceased to pursue his successor with every annoyance that could suggest itself to a little mind and a naturally spiteful nature."

The government managed to locate evidence that identified that Barton was author of the articles and prosecuted him for libel. In the process of gathering evidence the government offered Otago Daily Times staff a 'pardon in advance' so they would not incriminate themselves in giving evidence against Barton. After he was committed for trial in January 1871, the case was dropped. Barton was not inclined to let matters rest and in March 1871, he launched a writ against Charles Lemon the head of the Telegraph Department, accusing him of a breach of the Telegraph Act (1865) over the so-called Stafford Timaru speech affair. In his writ Barton accused him of obtaining a copy of a report that a reporter had sent by telegraph on a speech by William Stafford in April 1870 and allowing it to be used for political purposes. Barton argued that the telegram was effectively the private property of ODT, but his claim was rejected by the court. Following the conclusion of the case in 1871 Barton resigned and was succeeded as editor by William Murison. About two years previously J. G. Fraser had been appointed to the position of manager of the company. Murison held the editorship until 1877 when he was succeeded by George M Reed who only in turn held the position until 1878.

Increasing competition
George Bell, the owner of the afternoon Evening Star made a direct foray into directly completing with the ODT by launching the Morning Star in December 1872, but while the combined circulation of the two newspapers was over 4,000 this was still less than that of the ODT. In 1873 what eventually was to be called the Guardian Printing and Publishing Company was formed to purchase the Morning Star which they intended to rename the Daily News, but by the time it appeared on 23 July 1873 it was called the Otago Guardian a new daily morning rival. It was edited by Robert Creighton, who had formerly been editor of the Auckland's Southern Cross. Evening newspapers always had an advantage over the morning ODT as they had access to the latest news that had come in over the telegraph during the day. The telegraph office closed at midnight, which with the exception of local news, meant that the morning newspaper could only print the previous days national and international news.

In January 1874 the Guardian Printing and Publishing Company began publishing the weekly Southern Mercury which was edited by Vincent Pyke. By the mid-1870s the Otago Guardian was struggling against the ODT. Following the resignation of its manager Captain Baldwin in 1875 George Fenwick took up the position. Soon recognizing after several months in the position that it was impossible to make headway against the ODT and thus stem the losses that the business was incurring Fenwick recommended to the directors of the company that they sell both the Otago Guardian and the Southern Mercury if possible, and, if not, to cease the publication. Taking his advice, a new owner was found in April 1876 the form of George McCullagh Reed who had moved to Dunedin earlier in that same year and, possibly with financial assistance from his former partner in the Auckland Star, Henry Brett, established in partnership with George Jones a new paper, a third iteration of the Evening News, for the purpose of supporting the threatened provincial system. When deciding to purchase the publications Reed believed that he could redeem the newspaper's fortunes by the sheer force and power of bis writing and editing. Against his better judgment, Fenwick was influenced by Reed's conviction, and stayed on in his position and also became a partner. Later that year Fenwick also became a partner in the Evening News which was later closed in 1878.

Takeover by Fenwick and Reed
Despite Reed and Fenwick's best efforts the finances of the Otago Guardian continued to deteriorate and it took little more than a year's experience for Reed by 1877 to come to share Fenwick's view that Dunedin was not able to support two daily morning newspapers, theirs and the Otago Daily Times. Fenwick had a brainstorm and staggered Reed when he proposed that they should endeavour to obtain the ownership, via a reverse takeover of the much larger and more prosperous ODT and the Otago Witness. Thus by amalgamating their publications with their older-established more successful rivals, they could transform the two concerns into a lucrative business. The directors of their rivals were adamantly opposed and it was necessary for Fenwick and Reed by using W. H. Reynolds as secret negotiator and by raising and offer £30,000 before they gained control. As soon as Reed and Fenwick assumed control of the ODT and Otago Witness, the staff of the rival publications were merged and the Otago Guardian and the Southern Mercury ceased publication. Reed took on the editorship of both the ODT and Otago Witness while Silas Spragg from the Otago Guardian became the chief reporter of the ODT.

Staff depart to start a rival newspaper
The amalgamation of the various newspapers necessarily involved some reduction in the number of the employees, and it was the intention of Reed and Fenwick to endeavour to equalise matters by selecting their permanent employees in fair proportions from the respective staffs of the former rivals. However the former ODT employees took up the position that unless they were all retained, they would not accept a job under the new owners. This condition the owners declined to accede to, and the result was that the "ODT employees started an opposition paper, the Morning Herald which was launched in December 1877 aggressively priced at one penny, as against threepence being charged for the ODT. The men had many sympathisers and the former directors of the Times Company and their friends gave the new venture all the help they possibly could. The rival soon had a circulation of compatible with that of the ODT. In 1878 out of a combined population of 32,792 for the city and suburbs the average daily circulation of the ODT (which varied between 2,500 and 4,000) was about the same as the 10.7% of the Daily Morning Herald (approximately 3,000), well short of the 22.3% of afternoon Evening Star, the 17.8% of the Evening Tribune while the weekly Otago Witness was 20% and another weekly, the Penny Post was 6.1%. The Saturday Advertiser is believed to have reached around 20% of the total population.

Sold back into public ownership
The loss of circulation and thus revenue to the Morning Herald, coupled with the collapse in 1878 of the City of Glasgow Bank leading to a withdrawal of British funds which impacted on Otago runholders and weakened a struggling economy had a serious financial impact on the business. Reed and Fenwick had also assumed a considerable debt to buy their rival. In desperation Fenwick urged Reed to take the prudent course and protect themselves to the floating of the business as a public company. A prospectus was issued in April 1878 with William H. Reynolds, H. S. Chapman, Sir John L. C. Richardson, Robert Stout, Robert Campbell, Thomas Hocken, George Fenwick, James Marshall, Walter Guthrie, Bendix Hallenstein, Henry F. Hardy, John Reid, and Richard H. Leary listed as among the provisional directors, of a company to be known as the Otago Daily Times and Witness Newspapers Company, Ltd. The capital was £40,000 in 4,000 shares of £10 each, of which £7.10s was to be called up.

The flotation of the company was successful, and at a meeting of shareholders held on 10 June 1878. William H. Reynolds, Thomas Hocken, Richard H. Leary, Walter Guthrie, James Smith, and George Fenwick were elected directors. Reynolds was appointed chairman and Fenwick was made managing director. Reed remained editor of the ODT but departed in 1878 to become New Zealand's immigration agent in Ireland.

Fenwick believed that the only one course open to the company to gain circulation and stop the progress of their rival was to reduce the price of the ODT to match that of the Morning Herald; but it took several years before his more conservative colleagues on the board would agree to this, the ODT reducing its price to one penny on 1 February 1881. The result completely justified as the reduction as the circulation of the ODT rapidly increased initially to 4,100 and then to 4,000 to 6,000 in 1882 at the expense of its rival which steadily declined until after a hopeless struggle it became an evening paper in May 1884 and changing its name to the Evening Herald’ Despite this and a change of ownership it ceased publication in August 1890 when it merged with the Globe a liberal publication that had been launched in response to a maritime shrike. The Globe creased publication in 1893. The ODT was still however less popular than that of the Evening Star which had a circulation of 5,300 a day in 1876 and over 7,500 in 1881.

The newspapers opposition to the policies of both Vogel and Sir George Grey changed when it became a public company under the chairmanship of W. H. Reynolds as he was an ally of both Vogel and Grey.

The business added a lithographic department in 1879. When Richard Twopeny resigned from the editorship of the Otago Daily Times in 1890 after a disagreement with the directors, Fenwick also took on the editorship duties,. The introduction of linotype machines in 1898 lead to the redundancy of 30 compositors. In 1909 Fenwick handed the editorship of the newspaper to James Hutchison. While William Easton succeeded him as manager in 1919, Fenwick remained managing director of the Otago Daily Times until his death. By the first decade of the twentieth century weekday issues of the ODT had eight pages, which occasionally doubled on Saturdays. By late 1910 the weekday issues had increased to 10 to 12 pages.

Impact of World War I
Prior to the commencement of the First World War the cost of imported newsprint, was £12 a ton (landed). As the war progressed freight cost began to increase and contracts became more onerous which forced the ODT to increase its price to 1½d, the first price increase since 1881. Even after the end of the war the landed cost of newsprint continued to climb, reaching at its peak £60 a ton which forced the newspaper to increase in price on 8 March 1920 to 2d a copy.

Amalgamation
As has been seen most of its Dunedin opposition papers were short lived, with only the Evening Star surviving until it merged with the ODT in 1975 forming a new company, Allied Press, and the ODT moved to the Evening Star Building (now the Allied Press Building) in Stuart Street in June 1977. The Evening Star ceased publication in November 1979 because its readership was declining. As a result, the Allied Press, now publishes the ODT and several smaller papers throughout New Zealand, including the Greymouth Star and the former The Lakes District and Central Otago News.

On 5 January 1998 the ODT published for the first time on a new Goss International printing press; on the same day it introduced a new masthead reading simply "Otago Daily Times", marking Otago's 150th anniversary year of Pākehā settlement.

Into the 21st century
On 16 March 2016, the newspaper launched a metered paywall on its website limiting readers to between 15 and 20 free articles per month before having to pay a NZ$27 monthly subscription. While The Spinoff claimed that this made the Otago Daily Times the first major news publisher in New Zealand to implement a paywall, StopPress stated that the ODT was following the lead of other domestic news publications including the Ashburton Guardian, the Gisborne Herald, and the National Business Review. The ODT did not implement its paywall until September 2022, with new subscribers being charged NZ$15 a month while print subscribers were able to access online content for free.

Milestones

 * 1861 – 15 November: first edition.
 * 1881 – price dropped to one penny.
 * 1898 – first linotype machines installed. They were supplied by the English Linotype Company following a visit by Fenwick in 1897 the United States and Britain to investigate suitable machines.
 * 1900 – first photoengraving plant installed.
 * 1949 – first full-time cartoonist employed.
 * 1952 – November: the ODT became the first New Zealand metropolitan paper to print news rather than classified advertisements on the front page.
 * 1955 – new general printing department inaugurated.
 * 1956 – wire photographic equipment installed.
 * 1961 – new enlarged format.
 * 1966 – first full colour gravure pre-printing.
 * 1978 – 13 and 20 October: no edition due to journalists' strike; first missed days of publication in 117 years.
 * 1979 – November: Evening Star ceased publication; ODT size increased to compensate.
 * 1980 – August: three separate editions published for first time, serving Dunedin city, North Otago, and Central/South Otago.
 * 1981 – July: first computerised publishing.
 * 1987 – December: change to coloured masthead, simplified to "Otago Daily Times" with no "the".
 * 1988 – November: new typeface and formatting.
 * 1998 - 5 January: new Goss International press; new masthead reading simply "Otago Daily Times"
 * 1990 – June: first full-process colour printing.

Policies and personages
While having politically conservative views during Fenwick's long tenure, the ODT was active in many campaigns for social reform, none more important than the exposure of sweat shop following the sermon by Presbyterian minister Rutherford Waddell in October 1888 "On the sin of cheapness", against sweat-shop labour in the clothing industry. The cause was taken up by George Fenwick in a series of articles written by the newspaper's chief reporter Silas Spragg (1852–1935) and published in January 1889 which described working conditions in Dunedin. In response to newspaper's articles which stirred many of the local community into action, a royal commission on sweating was established in 1890. Its conclusions and recommendations formed the basis of many of the country's social reforms of the following decade. In 1894, the newspaper attacked conditions in Dunedin's slaughter-houses, which resulted in a poll in April 1895 which approved the establishment of public abattoirs. During Fenwick's editorship the newspaper also supported funding of the University of Otago, a women's hospital ward, the expansion of the University of Otago Medical School, and the Hocken Library.

Sid Scales was a cartoonist for the ODT for 30 years until his retirement in 1981. Queenstown artist Garrick Tremain was then the principal cartoonist until he stopped working for the paper in the wake of the 2019 measles cartoon controversy (see below).

Controversy
In December 2019, the Otago Daily Times was heavily criticized for publishing a cartoon by the Queenstown–based cartoonist and painter Garrick Tremain which seemed to mock a measles outbreak in Samoa. The measles crisis caused 4,000 confirmed cases and killed 55 people, most of them children under the age of 4. The newspaper later apologized, saying, "The content and timing of the cartoon were insensitive, and we apologise without reservation for publishing it". On 23 December, the New Zealand Media Council ruled that Tremain's cartoon was "gratuitously hurtful and discriminatory" in response to 130 complaints.

University of Otago student, Millie Lovelock, was a student columnist of "A Situation Report" from late 2014 to March 2017. She addressed issues of sexism, cuts to humanities courses and concerns on the future for young women. Her views on misogyny and the "toxic masculinity" evidenced by the nation's rugby culture drew considerable complaint in the ODT's letters to the editor pages. ODT journalist Vaughan Elder reported that she was "so polarising" and that "predominantly older white men" took issue with her opinions. After finishing her Master's degree Lovelock left journalism to continue her career as a musician and won the Taite Music Prize for Best Independent Debut in May 2020 for her album Relief (2019).

Editors

 * 1861–68 Sir Julius Vogel
 * 1868–71 George Burnett Barton
 * 1871–77 William Murison
 * 1877–78 George McCullagh Reed
 * 1878–83 James Ashcroft
 * 1883–90 Richard Twopeny
 * 1890–1909 Sir George Fenwick
 * 1909–46 Sir James Hutchinson
 * 1946–61 John Rowley Moffett
 * 1961–76 Allan Aubin
 * 1976–88 Keith Eunson
 * 1988–97 Geoff Adams
 * 1997–2007 Robin Charteris
 * 2007–2015 Murray Kirkness
 * 2015–2023 Barry Stewart
 * June 2023- Paul McIntyre

Regular supplements
The Otago Daily Times is delivered with the following regular inserted tabloid supplements:
 * World Focus (international news and commentary, Mondays)
 * Sport (sports news, Fridays)
 * The Mix (lifestyle/entertainment, Saturdays)

Community newspapers
The following sister publications of the ODT are weekly free newspapers:
 * The News (also called The Lakes District and Central Otago News), Alexandra
 * The Star (Dunedin)
 * The Courier (Ashburton)
 * The Ensign (Gore)
 * Southern Rural Life and Canterbury Rural Life, region-wide farming papers
 * Southland Express (Invercargill)
 * The Courier (Timaru)
 * The Oamaru Mail (Oamaru)
 * Mountain Scene (Queenstown)
 * Clutha Leader (Clutha District)

title: Otago Daily Times


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Talk:Karafuto Prefecture

October 2004 VfD
For an October 2004 deletion debate over this page see Votes for deletion/Karafuto Prefecture

prefecture
I'm still not comfortable calling it a prefecture, because it implies that it has similar standing with the other 47 prefectures in Japan, which it does not. Mike H 20:30, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)
 * Agreed, but for a different reason. It never had the same name as other prefectures; that's why I'd change it. Also, why stress it as a governmental unit only? The title "Karafuto" alone, without a following indicator of governmental status, would be fine by me. It's the Japanese term for the island of Sakhalin south of 50°, and encompasses present and former government, geography, history, present status etc. I favor moving. Fg2 21:35, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

 * How about "Karafuto Agency"? That's how Hokkaidō-chō is translated in the Hokkaido article Nik42 01:13, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
 * That might be a better title for this article. Also see last year's VfD debate (link is above). Fg2 01:18, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

at contrary at yours,in accord with my research with japanese friends and one ancient russian book,Karafuto are always japanese.i considered why the historically mention how Karafuto prefecture are adequate reme mbering of one injust situation,over russian illegaly possesion of one land why not pertaining at theirs.i understand why San Francisco treated,accord the Karafuto and Chisima occupation for Russians are temporary,no permanently and theirs debt to return these territoires to Japan in posterior times.lamentably Russians no belived this and considered why poseyed all rigths for annexed these lands in ilegall form.for this considered why these remembering are totally correct. wlad k 9:18,Feb 12,2005

 * The problem is that "Karafuto" (alone) is the Japanese name for the whole island of Sakhalin. "Karafuto+(prefecture, or some other term)" refers to the former Japanese administrative district on Sakhalin island ("Sakhalin south of 50°"). The present article
 * should keep the title Karafuto (Prefecture, or whatever), but
 * should also confine itself to that subject.
 * As it stands, it is (increasingly) concerning itself with the whole island of Sakhalin, making much of it an unnecesary duplication of the Sakhalin article. In particular, all those items noted as being "in Russian Sakhalin" should be moved to the Sakhalin article, and it would be much more informative if the map were to be one showing the limits of Karafuto (Prefecture) rather than, as at present, simply an outline of undivided Sakhalin. -- Picapica 10:59, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Redundant?
Reading this, much of the information is either copied wholesale or incredibly similar to the Sakhalin page. I suggest that the information here be reduced and crosslinked to reduce the redundancy. Bo-Lingua 17:31, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Name
The Ainu names (Karaputo, Karaftu, Kraftu) -- I'm assuming those are forms from different dialects... or are they merely different foreign transcriptions? Since I don't know for sure, I'm not changing this, but someone should really tell the readers what the different forms are all about. (I'm curious about the sources, too; as far as I can tell, Ainu does not allow initial kr- and I haven't heard of a dialect that uses /f/, although I suppose that could be from Japanese influence.)

Also, Tarrakai is "ancient French"? I find that unlikely -- one usually hears of Old French, not "ancient", and I don't think the French knew about Sakhalin or Japan when that was spoken. 24.159.255.29 04:25, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I forgot -- we should also mention that the name Karafuto comes originally from Ainu, not Japanese. 24.159.255.29 04:30, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Regarding the etymology given in the  section:

 The Japanese name Karafuto purportedly comes from Ainu kamuy kar put ya mosir (カムィ・カㇻ・プッ・ヤ・モシㇼ) which means "the island a god has created on the estuary (of Amur River)".
 * (I have just added the word "purportedly" to that section.)
 * We have no attestation of this as coming originally from Ainu. All we have are Japanese sources that claim that this is from Ainu phrase kamuy kar put ya mosir (literally "god make river-mouth rock land"), but without providing any real clarity on the source.
 * See also the RFV (request for verification) thread at wikt:Talk:kamuy_kar_put_ya_mosir -- we could not find any attestation of this purported Ainu etymon, and thus deleted the term as unverifiable.
 * I feel like the text in the  section needs further reworking, but I am presently uncertain how best to rewrite.  ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:48, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Merge notice
The Karafuto prefecture article needs to be merged into this one and replaced with a redirect. Bendono 16:04, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. --Cheesemeister3k 03:40, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Prefectural Flag
Did Karafuto have its own prefectural flag, if so could someone please upload it?Duarcain (talk) 20:49, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I finally found the prefectural emblem, which I uploaded. Unlike emblems, however, most Japanese prefectures prepared their flags from 1960s, so it's likely Karafuto never had the local flag. On old pics of Karafuto, they almost always flew the national flag. Kzaral (talk) 04:19, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Removed

 * but did not approve Russian sovereignty over it. From Japan's official position, Sakhalin's attribution is not determined yet, and it is marked as no man's land on Japanese maps. As of 2005, the issue remains a major strain on Japanese-Russian relations.

This is incorrect. Although a final peace treaty has not been signed, Japan does not challenge the Russian sovereignty over Sakhlin. The dispute is over something else.

Roadrunner (talk) 19:46, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Removed again statement about japanese maps This is not supported by the website Roadrunner (talk) 18:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Removed statement about sovereignty not being transferred. The sovereignty of Karafuto was transferred by the Instrument of Surrender of Japan.

Roadrunner (talk) 19:01, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

 * No - the Instrument of Surrender of Japan did not automatically transfer sovereignty of Karafuto to the Soviet Union. In of itself, the Instrument makes no mention of territorial transfer, and neither the Potsdam Declaration nor the Cairo Declaration have specific reference to the future disposition of Karafuto. Under the terms of the San Francisco Peace Treaty of 1951, Japan renounced all right, title and claim to the Kurile Islands and to Karafuto; however, the Soviet Union refused to sign the treaty; therefore the borders between Japan and Russia remain undetermined by treaty agreements. The Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs pamphlet on the Northern Territories issue depicts both the northern Kuriles and southern Sakhalin as no man's land pending a final peace treaty (http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/europe/russia/territory/pamphlet.pdf) indicating that the official Japanese government viewpoint is that while Russia has de facto sovereignty over former Karafuto, de jure soverignty will not devolve to Russia until a final peace treaty is signed. --MChew (talk) 09:01, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It's interesting that Russia does confirm there is a territorial dispute but does not indicate concrete facts or a position on the issue on its website. Here is an exceprt in Russian from the press conference with Sergey Lavrov and Katsuya Okada held on December 28, 2010: . Basically, when asked about the issue of 4 islands, Lavrov does not single out the issue as a priority matter for bilateral relations. It sounds like something put on the back burner. Tuscumbia  ( talk ) 21:30, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Fixed POV
In 1945, with the defeat of Japan in World War II, the Japanese administration in Karafuto ceased to function, and in 1951, at the Treaty of San Francisco, Japan renounced its rights to Sakhalin. Since that time, the southern part of Sakhalin has been occupied by Russia.

Considering that 99% of Sakhalin's population today are ethnic Russians, I doubt they feel very 'occupied' by their own country, sorry.

Changed it to:

In 1945, with the defeat of Japan in World War II, the Japanese administration in Karafuto ceased to function, and in 1951, at the Treaty of San Francisco, Japan renounced its rights to Sakhalin. Since that time, the southern part of Sakhalin has been a part of Russia.

--SergeiXXX (talk) 18:39, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Which brings up a good point and the whole reason I came to this article in the first place: how do the Japanese feel about losing this island? I'm rather curious if there has been any diplomatic effort by Japan to claim sovereignty over this island. Celynn (talk) 12:07, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Karafuto Prefecture


text:
Lapland Ranger Regiment

The Lapland Ranger Regiment (Lapplands jägarregemente), designations I 22, I 22/Fo 66 and I 22/GJ 66, was a Swedish Army light infantry regiment, one of the few new formations raised in the 20th century. The regiment was garrisoned in Lapland. The unit was disbanded as a result of the disarmament policies set forward in the Defence Act of 2000.

History
The regiment traced its origins from the elite "Skidlöparbataljonen" (Skirunners Battalion), of Norrbotten Regiment (I 19), the battalion was raised in 1910 as the first modern ranger unit of the Swedish Army and the first unit specializing in arctic warfare. The battalion was garrisoned in northern Lapland Kiruna in 1940 and was renamed in 1943 as Jägarbataljon K (Ranger Battalion K), K for Kiruna, which became Sweden's first special operation unit. In 1945 the battalion became an independent training unit under the army high command as the Army Ranger School for setting up and training three army corps ranger battalions and long range recon companies and special operation units. The unit received independent regimental status with a regimental standard from the hands of the King in 1975, and was renamed Lapplands jägarregemente I 22, I 22 stood for infantry regiment no 22. The Lapland Ranger Regiment was finally disbanded in 2000. Its tasks and personnel were largely transferred to the heavier equipped Norrland Dragoon Regiment (K 4), a former mounted ranger cavalry unit that had a de facto light infantry role, later in turn reorganized and downsized as the Army Ranger Battalion as part of the Norrbotten Regiment, the original mother regiment of Lapland Rangers.

The rangers of the Lapland Ranger Regiment and the Ranger School wore a green "commando" beret, from 1960 onward, with the unit's insignia a crowned wolf's head. For ranger qualification the soldiers had to pass a demanding 7-day march exercise, with daily distances between 25 and 50 kilometers (15–31 miles) carrying 35 to 50 kilo (77–110 pounds) rucksacks, in rough mountain terrain. Despite this the pass rate was high, due to 2 to 3 months prior extensive tough heavy load marching training for recruits.

Organisation
The regiment raised independent ranger companies, one or two per year, that was specialized in behind enemy lines operations in Arctic environment on small unit bases, ranger troops. The requirement was for a ranger troop to be able to sustain high combat capability for at least 30 days of operations behind enemy lines without supplies.

Colours, standards and guidons
When the regiment was raised on 1 July 1975, the regiment inherited the colour of the Army Ranger School from 1948. A new colour was presented to the Lappland Ranger Regiment (I 22/Fo 66) in Kiruna by His Majesty the King Carl XVI Gustaf on 8 September 1983. 8 September became from 1983 the regiment's anniversary. The colour of Lapland Ranger Regiment was drawn by Ingrid Lamby and embroidered by machine in insertion technique. The manufacturer is unknown. It was used as regimental colour by I 22/Fo 66 until 1 July 2000. Blazon: "On green cloth the badge of the unit; an erazed head of a wolf with an open crown inside a ring made of birch leaves, all yellow. In the first corner the badge of the former Kiruna Defence District (Fo 66); per pale, on white a rampant black bear with red arms and on red three white bugles in pale."

Coat of arms
The coat of the arms of the Lapland Ranger Regiment (I 22/Fo 66) used from 1977 to 1982 and the Lapland Ranger Group (Lapplandsjägargruppen) from 2000 to 2016. Blazon: "Vert, the regimental badge, an erazed crowned head of a wolf argent. The shield surmounted two muskets in saltire or." On 21 June 1982, the colour of the wolf head was changed from silver (argent) to gold (or) through an order from the Chief of the Army.

Medals
In 2000, the Lapplands jägarregementes (I 22/Fo 66) minnesmedalj ("Lapland Ranger Regiment (I 22/Fo 66) Commemorative Medal" in silver (LappljregSMM) of the 8th size was established in 2000. The medal ribbon is of green moiré with narrow yellow edges and a yellow stripe on the middle.

Heritage
In connection with the disbandment of the ''664. gränsregementet ("664th Border Regiment") through the Defence Act of 2000, its traditions from 1 July 2000 was passed on to the Lapland Ranger Group (Lapplandsjägargruppen'') and from 1 July 2013 by the Lapland Ranger Battalion in the Lapland Ranger Group.

Other
The regiment's motto was In omnia paratus ("Ready for all things"), and its march was "Friska tag", which was established on 19 October 1984.

Commanding officers
Commanding officers of the regiment from 1975 to 2000.
 * 1975–1979: Clarence Jonsson
 * 1979–1984: Leif Nilsson
 * 1984–1989: Sören Jansson
 * 1989–1997: Björn Lundquist
 * 1997–2000: Håkan Hedström

title: Lapland Ranger Regiment


text:
Quilpie, Queensland

Quilpie is a rural town and locality in the Shire of Quilpie, Queensland, Australia. In the, the locality of Quilpie had a population of 530 people.

The town is the administrative centre of the Quilpie Shire local government area. The town of Toompine is also within the locality.

The economy of the area is based on the grazing and mining industries. The area has one of the largest deposits of boulder opal in the world, and also has extensive deposits of gas and oil.

Geography
Quilpie is in Channel Country on the banks of the Bulloo River. It is on the Diamantina Developmental Road, 211 km west of Charleville, 829 km west of Toowoomba and 1099 km west of the state capital, Brisbane. Quilpie is the administrative centre of the Quilpie Shire.

The town of Quilpie is in the north of the locality, while the smaller town of Toompine (-27.2225°N, 144.3611°W) is in the south of the locality.

Quilpie has quite a few trees but sometimes drought takes over and the landscape can become dry and desolate.

History
Quilpie is believed to lie on the border of the Bunthamurra and Margany Indigenous Australian tribal areas.

Margany (also known as Marganj, Mardigan, Marukanji, Maranganji) is an Australian Aboriginal language spoken by the Margany people. The Margany language region includes the landscape within the local government boundaries of the Quilpie Shire, taking in Quilpie, Cheepie and Beechal extending towards Eulo and Thargomindah, as well as the properties of Dynevor Downs and Ardoch.

The township of Toompine was surveyed in 1870. The name Toompine is an Indigenous language word meaning leech.

Toompine Provisional School and Duck Creek Provisional School both opened in 1900. In 1901, they became half-time schools (meaning they shared a single teacher between the two schools). Toompine Provisional School closed in July 1902, enabling Duck Creek Provisional School to revert to full-time status. Due to low student numbers, Duck Creek Provisional School closed in 1905.

Quilpie was gazetted as a town in 1917 owing to the Western railway line that was laid down from Brisbane. It takes its name from the Indigenous Australian word for stone curlew, quilpeta. The name was proposed by pastoralist James Hammond of Tenham Station. The Queensland Railways Department mistakenly named the railway station Quillpill. The town and station name were standardised to Quilpie on 16 June 1917 by the Governor in Council. From 1954 to 1994, The Westlander was split at Charleville. the Quilpie Section (3Q02) was known as the "Flying Flea" and it consisted of two passenger carriages, a guards van and power van. both 3Q02 and 3V02 were withdrawn in 1994 and replaced by TrainLink bus services

Quilpie State School opened on 10 September 1918. The school began offering secondary education in 1966. On 5 December 2008, it was renamed Quilpie State College.

The first post office was opened in 1921. Two years later the telephone reached Quilpie.

A fire destroyed a block of the main street in 1926. With no town water the residents watched helplessly.

In 1927, the first court house was established.

Prior to 1930, Quilpie was within the Shire of Adavale, headquartered at Adavale. However, the decision to route the railway line through Quilpie rather than Adavale had led to a population drift away from Adavale making Quilpie the larger town. On 17 July 1930, there was a re-organisation of local government in the district, resulting in the abolition of the Shire of Adavale and the creation of the Shire of Quilpie with Quilpie as its headquarters.

St Finbarr's Catholic Church was officially opened and dedicated on Sunday 14 December 1930 by the Bishop of Toowoomba, James Byrne. It was built from timber. In 1972, it was replaced with a brick church designed by W. Durack.

A bore was sunk into the Great Artesian Basin in 1933. It provided drinking water for the town and between 1952 and 1963 the hot water was used to generate electricity for the town.

On 15 October 1936, St Matthew's Anglican Church was officially opened and dedicated by Bishop Dixon. It was built from timber and could seat 100 people. The church bell was donated by the people of Cunnamulla.

St Finbarr's Catholic School opened in early 1950, shortly after the arrival in January 1950 of three Sisters of St Joseph of the Sacred Heart, Sisters Macrina, Carmel and Magdalen. By the end of 1950, over 60 children were enrolled. A boarding school for boys and girls was opened in 1951. The first lay teacher, Michael West, was appointed in 1983. When the boarding facility closed in 2008, it was the last rural Catholic primary boarding school in Queensland. In 2009, the first lay principal, Aaron Wells, was appointed and the administration of the school passed from the Sisters to the Catholic Education Office of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Toowoomba who operate the school in the Mary MacKillop tradition (MacKillop being the founder of the Sisters of St Joseph).

Goombie State School opened on Goombie Station (north of the town of Quilpie at -26.1126°N, 144.1348°W) on 27 January 1875 and closed on 9 December 1977.

The current Quilpie Public Library building opened in 2005.

Demographics
In the, the town of Quilpie had a population of 645 people. Around 14% of the population of Quilpie identity as Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander and around 2% were born outside Australia.

In the, the town of Quilpie had a population of 560 people.

In the, the locality of Quilpie had a population of 574 people.

In the, the locality of Quilpie had a population of 595 people.

In the, the locality of Quilpie had a population of 451 people with 16.2% identifying as Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander.

Economy
The area is wholly devoted to grazing. Boulder opal, oil and gas mining are major secondary industries for the local economy. The majority of the employees of these industries are local residents, with low rates of both unemployment and itinerant work.

Quilpie has one opal mining field; Toompine Field is located between Quilpie and Yowah.

Flora and fauna
The most common species of trees in the district are: There are a large range of animals (including reptiles and insects) that can be found in the area including:
 * Mulga
 * Gidgee
 * Red river gum
 * Bloodwood
 * Sandalwood
 * Beefwood
 * Bearded dragon
 * Sand goanna (Varanus gouldii) – bungarra in some aboriginal languages
 * Black-headed python
 * Inland taipan (Oxyuranus microlepidotus) – also known as western taipan and fierce snake
 * Mulga snake (Pseudechis australis) – also known as the king brown
 * Brolga (Grus rubicunda)
 * Emu (Dromaius novaehollandiae)
 * Wedge-tailed eagle (Aquila audax)
 * Red kangaroo (Macropus rufus)
 * Eastern grey kangaroo (Macropus giganteus)
 * Common wallaroo (Macropus robustus)
 * Bilby (Macrotis lagotis)
 * Water rat (Hydromys chrysogaster)
 * Dingo

Amenities
Quilpie residents enjoy free access to many amenities including a post office, the town library, swimming pool, golf course, museum, sports grounds, an air-conditioned hall and supper room etc. There are well stocked stores and plenty of attractions for visitors with displays of opals and the works of local artists and as well as an information centre. The Brick Hotel has been restored to house displays of opal and art and provide a community learning space. Quilpie Shire Council operates Quilpie Shire Library at 52 Brolga Street.

The Quilpie branch of the Queensland Country Women's Association has its rooms at 17 Brolga Street.

St Finbarr's Catholic Church is on the south-east corner of Bulnbuln Street and Quarrion Street (-26.6162°N, 144.2692°W). The altar and baptismal font are decorated with local opals.

St Matthew's Anglican Church is on the north-west corner of Bulnbuln Street and Quarrion Street (-26.6156°N, 144.2689°W).

Education
Quilpie State College is a government primary and secondary (Early Childhood-10) school for boys and girls at the corner of Chulungra and Boonkai Streets (-26.6149°N, 144.2714°W). In 2017, the school had an enrolment of 61 students with 12 teachers (11 full-time equivalent) and 12 non-teaching staff (9 full-time equivalent). In 2018, the school had an enrolment of 65 students with 13 teachers (12 full-time equivalent) and 12 non-teaching staff (9 full-time equivalent).

St Finbarr's School is a Catholic primary (Prep-6) school for boys and girls at Jabiru Street (-26.6167°N, 144.2701°W). In 2017, the school had an enrolment of 30 students with 5 teachers (3 full-time equivalent) and 5 non-teaching staff (2 full-time equivalent). In 2018, the school had an enrolment of 26 students with 4 teachers (3 full-time equivalent) and 3 non-teaching staff (2 full-time equivalent).

For students wanting to study Years 11 and 12, the closest secondary school is Charleville State High School in Charleville, 211 kilometres (131 mi) to the east. Alternatively, Year 11 and 12 students can also study using distance education provided by the Charleville School of Distance Education or move away to various boarding schools.

Climate
Quilpie experiences a hot semi-arid climate (Köppen: BSh, Trewartha: BShl); with very hot summers with occasional rains; warm to hot, relatively dry springs and autumns; and mild, dry winters.

Events

 * The Pride of the West festival is held in September every year.
 * The Quilpie Cup Races
 * The Kangaranga Do festival is held in September every year on the Tuesday before the Birdsville Races.

Notable people from Quilpie

 * Vaughan Johnson, Queensland state politician
 * Ewen Jones, Australian federal politician
 * Professor Don Markwell, social scientist and educational leader
 * Sandy McPhie, former Queensland state politician
 * Justine Saunders, Australian actor

title: Quilpie, Queensland


text:
Talk:Metric typographic units

Merge
There is an article Typographic unit, and I'm wondering if this one should be removed from here and copied to that one, into its "Metric units" section. --Shlomital 20:33, 2004 Oct 8 (UTC)

Device resolutions in metric
The conversion formula given is very complicated; it could be simplified to 25400/R. Is there any reason not to? Rwxrwxrwx 22:00, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

DIN Section All Wrong?
I believe the DIN section may be completely confused.

Which measurement is baseline-to-top-of-H?

Is there a measurement that is baseline-to-baseline -- or one that is top-of-H-to-baseline-above?

Which is which?

What is 72% of what?

In the examples shown like SG:4.3/HG:6.0, the SG is 72% of the HG -- seems to contradict all the explanations.

Is the translation to CSS measurements correct? In CSS, I believe the "line-height" measurement is baseline-to-baseline.

Is it specifically capital "H", or any "full-height letter" -- there can be variation between the heights of capital letters in a font, and some lowercase ascenders are often taller than capitals.

Is the translation of "Oberhöhe" as "font height" correct. Or does it mean "over-height" = "height above" = leading above? In other words, a top-of-H-to-baseline-above measurement??

I completely re-wrote the DIN section, "correcting" everything as I thought it should be (and making many improvements for readability) -- but now I'm too confused to commit it.

In the text below I have put links in SINGLE brackets so you can read the referral text, and made the section headlines "SECTION:" so they won't appear as sections in the Talk articles here. If you decide to copy it to the real article, be sure to make all the single brackets double -- and redo the bolding which will be lost when you copy the text.

MY REWORKING:

SECTION: DIN 16507-2==

[DIN], the German standards body, has devised a standard way of specifying font dimensions in metric units using two values: Schriftgröße or SG ("font size"), and Oberhöhe or OH ("font height").

Schriftgröße is defined as the height of the letter "H" in a particular font. Oberhöhe is defined as the height of the "H" plus [leading] above, from [Baseline (typography)|baseline] to baseline.

The standard defines a default "well-proportioned" leading ratio where the Schriftgröße is 72% (rounded to one decimal) of the Oberhöhe.

Font dimensions are specified as two numbers separated by a solidus (forward slash): SG/OH, both in millimetres.

For example, a text in about 12pt size and with default, one-line leading is defined as 4.3/6.0 according to the standard. The same size with extra leading, for one and a half lines of space, is defined as 4.3/9.0. Text in about 14pt size with default leading is 5.0/7.0.

The DIN standard can already be used today in Web design in [Cascading Style Sheets|CSS] rules, for example:

or

SECTION: Other proposals==

The DIN standard uses the [H-height], but some typographers have proposed using the [x-height] instead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.6.247.77 (talk • contribs) 08:51, November 14, 2006

Advisory: DIN Section Inaccurate?
I believe the DIN section may be completely confused.

In typography in general, and in CSS, the "font size" is an imaginary box that encloses the maximum size of any characters in the font -- we can think of it roughly as the descender-to-ascender height.

In general typography, "leading" or "interlinear space" is a measurement from the baseline-to-baseline of two lines. CSS "line-height" uses an approach which is effectively the same (for multiple lines), but is calculated and applied differently. The amount of the "font-size" is subtracted from the amount of the "line-height", and the remaining amount of "line-height" is divided in two, and placed above and below the imaginary box of the "font-size". That is, roughly, half the difference goes below the descenders and half goes above the ascenders.

CSS Example

A "font-size" of 12px means the distance from (roughly) the bottom of a "j" to the top of an "h" is 12 pixels.

A "line-height" of 14px accompanying this font size means: 14px minus 12px equals 2 pixels, divided in half equals 1 pixel -- so 1 pixel of empty space goes above the top of the "h", and 1 pixel of empty space goes below the bottom of the "j".

So in the current article, if the CSS examples are correct then the description of the DIN system is all wrong. The DIN system as described has one of the measurements being the height of the letter "H" -- but CSS does not use this measurement for either "font-size" or "line-height".

Altenately, if the description of the DIN system is correct, then you cannot currently specify fonts in CSS with the DIN system. The DIN specification of "SG/OH" is not the same as the CSS notation "font: 4.3mm/6.0mm" or "font-size: 8.6mm; line-height: 12.0mm".

Also note that the current DIN description seems to be confused even within itself -- it seems to have "font size (Schriftgröße)" and "font height (Oberhöhe)" reversed.

I will see if I can find the actual DIN specification. In the meantime I'm putting a warning note in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.6.229.42 (talk • contribs) 11:36, November 14, 2006

Inaccurate webpage
The content of the article -- and even the article title -- seem to come directly from this Web page which is definitely not accurate in at least some respects:

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/metric-typo/

And the Wikipedia article text seems to mangle the info further, giving "SG/OH" as the specification format, when the source Web page seems to give "SG(as designed)/SG(as desired)".

Additionally, this whole subject is confounding two separate issues: specifying existing digital fonts in millimeters (a trivial thing, which contrary to the article, is possible in most current word processors/page layout apps and in CSS) -- and regularizing the actual size of font characters with their supposed sizes (which is not specifically a metric issue, could be done with point sizing as well).

So as far as simple specification of existing fonts in millimeters, it's really a non-subject -- you can do it if you wish to. And I'm thinking proposals for regularization of actual font character sizes should be a different article, on that subject.

I don't have more time to spend on this -- I'm adding another warning at the top of the page that the whole article (except for the Device resolutions in metric section is not accurate and should be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.7.22.151 (talk • contribs) 15:07, November 14, 2006

Disputed tag
Hiya, I'm not particularly invested in this topic, but just stopping in as a wandering admin. I see that the article has been re-tagged as disputed, though the date is being listed as November 2006, although the tag was added in March 2008. May I ask the reason for this? --Elonka 23:16, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I also wandered in on this (from the disputed articles category), and am failing to see what specifically the dispute is. One editor is claiming that the information provided is not accurate, and that the source is not reliable, however provides no sources to back up his/her claims.  The source that he/she does not like is the University of Cambridge, which to my mind is a Reliable Source.  I am going to be Bold and remove the disputed tag and the warning at the top of the article based on the fact that there are no sources provided that contradict the article. PGWG (talk) 14:38, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with the removal. If someone feels that the information is inaccurate, and they'd like to provide a source that is more accurate, they are welcome to do so.  But just tagging as "inaccurate" and then walking away, isn't helpful. (Correction) I did notice that there were some other anon comments that had been offered on the talkpage, which had been deleted in between revisions.  Since the main concerns appeared to be about the DIN section, I went ahead and deleted that section from the article. --Elonka 16:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Aicher's font sizes
The section on the quart says that "Aicher's font sizes are based on the DIN standard then in development, which uses the H-height, whereas in lead typesetting the larger cap height was used," however the link from "H-height" goes to the Wikipedia page for cap height, which implies that the two terms are synonymous, both meaning the hight from the baseline to the top of the capital H (or any other flat-topped capital letter).

Is it possible that one of these is supposed to be ascender height (baseline to highest ascender) or body height (lowest descender to highest ascender)?

Avram (talk) 20:25, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Metric typographic units


text:
Talk:Child discipline

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 August 2018 and 10 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Smd1053, TGrizzetti, Bhm1004.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 17:24, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

comment with no heading
The article states: Non-violent child discipline has grown in popularity, but continues to be controversial for practical, moral, religious and legal reasons.. I am trying but failing how non-violent child discpline can be controversial for moral, religous and legal reasons. Please explain. Those reasons removed. Przepla 20:36, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Easy enough:

 * practical -- there may be other children that need care; time-intensive discipline for one child results in neglect of the other children
 * moral -- so-called "non-violent" child discipline may only substitute emotional (psychological) abuse
 * religous -- the Bible says you must spank
 * legal -- parents may be held responsible for failure to control a child

AlbertCahalan 04:50, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Good points. MARussellPESE 22:12, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Christain bias
This article appears very skewed towards christianity. It consists almost entirely of bible quotes. I will remove some of them, if any one thinks they can do a better job of clearing it up, feel free to change it back. I am just going to try and clean it up a little bit. Dolive21 18:07, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Agreed, but the Christian perspective is robust and deserves attention. We should try to tighten it up and expand around it. MARussellPESE 22:12, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

 * I didn't notice a bias, although I definitely see room for additional information on Religious Perspective. Believe it or not, I am really glad this article looks like it does. Take it from a nanny, these articles are important. --Spesek 18:07, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

 * My suggestion is just to create a universal section titled 'cultural and religious perspectives' and put all these quotes and info on how different cultures and religions view child discipline. I know there's a big difference between eastern and western pespectives for instance. If someone does put that up could they please fish the info in the judeo-christian section out of the history 'bin' and put it back in? Then people can add to it with cultural or other perspectives.
 * Keep in mind that how parents approach disciplining their children can be heavily influenced by these factors AND that one of the differences between models of discipline in public/private (religious) schools is often the use of physical discipline. Therefore this topic certainly has great practical relevance to the article. --I (talk) 17:09, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

 * I disagree. The article is not skewed; in fact, it does not go nearly far enough. Arguably, American Christianity (primarily fundamentalist, evangelical, pentecostal) is the most vocal proponent of physical discipline of children as a primary component in childhood discipline. It is widely accepted as biblical truth that must be accepted and obeyed, even though most would use physical discipline sparingly. However, that viewpoint has also resulted in extreme teachings and methodologies, such as those of Michael and Debi Pearl(To Train Up a Child) that have been associated with the deaths of two children. Presenting the biblical content is critical to understanding why parts of Christianity view certain passages as divine mandates (commands by God) that must be obeyed, not just wisdom to be considered. New views of those passages are emerging that question whether they should be interpreted as directed to children. If anything, this very brief section on "Biblical Views" is skewed by its own paucity of content, not by any idea of bias because of Bible quotes. I don't know what qualifies one to write for Wikipedia, but I would like to see this section broadened and deepened to reflect more accurate comments on Christianity and childhood discipline. Clayofco (talk) 22:19, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

New sections
Added new sections just now to give some structure. Not attached to their names or organization, but hopefully will facilitate future work. MARussellPESE 22:12, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Proposed merger with Child discipline page
There is clearly much overlap in subject matter between the two pages. It looks to me like a case of content forking or POV forking. I think a single more complete, more balanced article could be made by merging the two, instead of having two pages with different points of view on the same subject matter. Also both pages need a lot of work; it seems more efficient to combine them so the people who have time to devote to this can work together more effectively and build a good-quality page. The Child discipline page is rather incomplete, for example representing only one religion. --Coppertwig 02:37, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Machiavelli's "The Nanny"
I don't think it is fair (or accurate) to claim that "The Prince" is a primer on child-raising. For example, you can't execute one child as a warning to the rest and you can't hire mercenaries.

Also, Isn't there a single non-religious quote advocating corporal punishment of children. It doesn't take a theologian to say "Children can't be reasoned with" or "a parent should be like a benevolent dictator, able to discipline and nurture." Mike Reason

 * Aside from conservative Christian James Dobson, probably not in the English speaking world these days. Ikzing (talk) 06:35, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Merger Proposal
I've suggested that this bring over text from "Non-violent child discipline". Even through it's non-violent it's still discipline! Help POV I think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.190.112.2 (talk) 16:55, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

The above comment was from me, I forgot sign it in a rush. I've also noted a previous merger proposal ... but with it's? ... perhaps the same one from Coppertwig, 11 Nov 2006 Edgepedia (talk) 06:36, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Non-punitive discipline ought to come here as well I think. Edgepedia (talk) 09:27, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Working on it here Edgepedia (talk) 09:51, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Merger done, and pages redirected here Also I manually fixed the double redirects Pages were Non-punitive discipline and Non-violent child discipline Edgepedia (talk) 15:57, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Neutral my heinie
"Modeling is worthy of the efforts of every parent..." -- Worthy based on whose opinion? This is exactly wikipedia's problem. Neutrality is king when people disagree with you, but when people like what you're saying, you can be as biased as you want. --Buddy13 (talk) 21:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I've added a POV template on that section. I haven't time at the moment. Do children copy their parents? do we have any references for that? Edgepedia (talk) 21:42, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

 * I think that the "worthy" clause is the only indication of biased POV in the section. Removing the clause would restore a neutral point of view. I'm going to be bold here. A Pattern O (talk) 21:17, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * All right, that clause has now been removed. Someone else can review the section, determine if NPOV is satisfied, and remove the tag. A Pattern O (talk) 21:19, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Citation tags
The article is littered with citation needed tags. Obviously an editor has concerns with a lack of factual data - or possibly questioning the info because of a certain POV? -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 00:58, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I put them there. Sorry if I overdid it, but it seems to me that only the "corporal punishment" section of this article is balanced, with sources cited in support. All the rest of the article reads like a child-rearing manual, and moreover one written from a particular point of view. Just a whole series of tendentious assertions unsupported by any evidence at all. Alarics (talk) 06:46, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

 * Just a note on one citation. Dare to Discipline, by Dr. James Dobson, was originally published in 1971 by Tyndale House. Clayofco (talk) 22:39, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Possible framework changes
The current layout highlights discipline methods. I think it would be more useful to tackle the article from a historical or cultural perspective. It may be worthwhile to discuss the changes toward the treatment of children over time, in Biblical times ("Spare the rod..."), major philoshophical changes in attitudes, Asian, Middle eastern, Western discipline ideals, etc. Many of the method sections that are on there now could be summarised into a 'Current western methods' section. In addition, I'm sure Developmental psychology has been influential in changing discipline perspectives. Ikzing (talk) 20:30, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Fine. Would you like to do it? Alarics (talk) 20:57, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I've added a little history and restructured the page. Not sure if this is the best way, but I think it works based on its current content. The biggest problem I see now is the Corporal Punishment section which needs more history and purpose and should be less POV. I'm also wondering if it wouldn't be better to have a section for school discipline rather than limiting it to corp punishment in the schools, to be able to get in things like the infamous dunce caps. Ikzing (talk) 18:13, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Now I look at the text again, I'm wondering why we are duplicating so much material here about corporal punishment which is all covered in a series of articles about that specific subject. -- Alarics (talk) 07:27, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Positive parenting
Positive parenting redirects here, but there is no useful text about that topic. Does anybody know what should be said? Rixs (talk) 13:25, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I should guess it was meant to refer to the section headed "Praise and rewards for good behavior". -- Alarics (talk) 16:09, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it's the title of a Parenting style, rather than simply a notion about being up-beat. I don't know what it actually means, but it shouldn't be a redirect page if it's just a simple phrase. Rixs (talk) 17:16, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Positive parenting used to redirect to Non-violent child discipline until I merged that page into this one. It not a parenting style as defined in that article... and a bit more complex than praise and rewards. However there are several books on the subject, but my guess each of these will have a slightly different defination. There are also a number of websites, but these may not be WP:RS Edgepedia (talk) 20:42, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * This looks like a WP:RS Edgepedia (talk) 20:52, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right, positive parenting is a significant topic these days. However 'Positive parenting' is just a phrase with no concrete definition. I reworked the page and added some more information about it. I still think there should be more of a discussion on the plethora of parenting books and advice, including Supernanny which is a bit of a phenomenon. Also I suggest a brief new section for School discipline, and not just corporal punishment: Paddling, Dunce cap, rulering (is that a proper term?), standing in the corner, detention, suspension, expulsion. Sudbury approach should probably be included in there. Ikzing (talk) 06:22, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * There is already a separate article called School punishment. I think the present article has been confined up to now to family/parental discipline, i.e. in the home. It might be better not to widen its scope to include school. In practice these are two quite different subjects in many ways. Better perhaps to improve the School punishment article and avoid unnecessary duplication. -- Alarics (talk) 10:31, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I hadn't seen that page, thanks. Agreed that they are somewhat different topics, and I don't want to duplicate any content. But the title Child discipline is all inclusive so there should at least be some sort of mention here. Schools are already mentioned in the corporal punishment section and the Sudbury section, so might be better to consolidate/summarize those with a Main article link pointing over there. Ikzing (talk) 11:00, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I've made a number of other additions and changes, and have merged the concept of Positive Parenting into Non-punitive discipline. I'm starting to feel better about the usefulness of this page, though it still needs plenty of cleaning up. I was also hoping to move most of the school information to the other page, but it is named School punishment rather than School discipline so can't really include non-punitive discipline there. What disappoints me is that you can find a thorough biography of every Simpsons character on this site, but something as important as parenting is so neglected. -- Ikzing (talk) 04:02, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

The Rod.
--202.156.14.102 (talk) 18:37, 20 December 2009 (UTC)What exactly is ""The Rod"? I have heard from many different sources that it is either: I am confused.
 * A tool shepherds used to guide sheep
 * A cane that people whack people with

 * It can be either of those things, depending on the context. -- Alarics (talk) 19:20, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

 * Our American use of the term "rod" comes straight from the Bible. Of course, many other cultures, religious or not, have employed the rod, but our American use of the term refers primarily to references from the book of Proverbs in the Bible, the collected sayings of King Solomon of Israel, and others, ca. tenth century BC. The most common Hebrew term for rod is the shebet. It can refer to the scepter yielded by a monarch (a sign of authority), or to a branch-like rod used by masters on slaves. A master would beat a slave on the back with a rod to assert dominance, and to force the slave to submit to his authority. In the case of Psalm 23, the shepherd (the Lord) carries both a rod (to protect the sheep from dangers such as lions) and a staff (to guide and direct the sheep). Based on context, the shebet in undoubtedly a large and probably heavy stick that can inflict pain, and even kill people. There is a strong biblical argument, though, that the rod is never associated with young children, but only with young men, adults, and nations. Clayofco (talk) 22:36, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

 * This is not just a biblical question. It is also not just an American question. "Birch rod" was the official phrase used in British legislation when birching was a legal form of judicial corporal punishment (even though the birch was not a single rod but a bundle of twigs). -- Alarics (talk) 06:56, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

 * Regarding biblical usage, it should be pointed out that the scriptures were written for a people familiar with sheep herding, who would have understood that no sober shepherd beats a sheep. Rather, shepherd's tools in the bible are generally instruments of guidance and comfort:  He leadeth me by still waters ...   His rod and His staff, they comfort me.  ...  I've read that a shepherd watching flocks at night might throw a rod at a wolf that threatened his sheep, but clubbing a sheep with a shepherd's rod is an idea that seems at odds with the whole concept of animal husbandry.  The staff, by contrast, is generally portrayed as hooked at the end, the better to gently rescue the prodigal sheep that has strayed from the straight and narrow path and fallen down the steep side of a cliff, and carefully guide it back into the safety of the flock.

 * Biblical authority is not the only source of ideas about child discipline. I'm aware of no research into outcomes that would indicate that beating children with a rod would result in the children growing up kinder or gentler toward others, including their own children.  I am familiar with research that says the child's initial fear from being beaten does not last, but instead that progressively more severe beatings become necessary as the child becomes increasingly hardened.  At any rate, the "rod" quotes are at best historic footnotes from another time and culture, before scientific study of parenting methods and outcomes was available.  A better use of the bulk of our article's is a footnoted discussion of reviews of the available studies regarding what measures help raise compassionate adults who are good citizens firmly grounded in following moral and ethical guidelines.

Internal discipline and popularly-based authority
The new section "Internal discipline and popularly-based authority" by User:94.230.82.161 is good. Can you add some references to individual claims? Would you like to log in as a named user, to identify further changes --- Rixs (talk) 17:26, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Bribes
Sadly the defination of bribe is wrong. Bribe is a money or favor granted for an illegal or unethical action. There fore-unless they are offering money to do somethign unethic- these rewards are not bribes by defination. They may be payment but bribe is the wrong word here and shows a bias in this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.124.231.211 (talk) 17:16, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

POV Non-punative discipline section
I just flagged the Non-punative discipline section as POV. The section seems very biased to me, with no substative opposing views or criticisms, which I know exist. The final two paragraphs seem especially condescending to opponents. I will edit the section to be more neutral once I dig out my old phil. of ed. articles. UnclaimedUsername (talk) 05:32, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I quite agree. It looks very POV to me. -- Alarics (talk) 12:19, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Article needs sections added to end of chronology covering recent developments such as attachment parenting and Positive Discipline
In the large chronology section, after the section titled "The return of the rod" a new section is needed to set out recent insights from attachment parenting as they bear on the baby training and baby beating methods of the 1900s.

Shouldn't recent developments in positive parenting discipline be mentioned? These are neither permissive nor authoritarian, but authoritative. E.g., positive parenting, the positive psychology approaches of Seligman et al. (The Optimistic Child: A Proven Program to Safeguard Children Against Depression and Build Lifelong Resilience) and the Parent Effectiveness Training approach. These and similar modern approaches (e.g. The Nurtured Heart Approach) have long since moved past the false dichotomy of total permissiveness of children to run wild versus harsh punitive punishments and the false exclusion of the fertile middle ground that exists between these unacceptable extremes.

Modern theories generally include respectfully hearing the child's concerns and seeking win-win resolution of conflicts where possible, without abdicating the responsibility to provide the child with responsible roles within the family, positive consequences for positive behavior, and negative consequences for negative behavior. In fact they generally involve child in fashioning specific consequences tailored to an infraction, subject to the parent's ultimate guidance (children often start with a harsher punishment than the parent had in mind). These approaches result in much greater buy-in by the child leading to a firmer formation of the child's moral compass.

This whole article needs rework by an expert with recent expertise in the matter. It is an important article that is here given a decidedly amateur slant.

US map shown should be revised to show Delaware in green because of 2012 change in Delaware child law
US map shown should be revised to show Delaware in green because of 2012 change in Delaware child law.

 * Even as corporal punishment became increasingly controversial in North America, Britain, Australia and much of the rest of the English-speaking world, limited appropriate corporal punishment of children by their parents remained lawful in all 50 states of the United States. It was not until 2012 that Delaware became the first state to adopt the emerging nonviolent European model and pass a statute defining “physical injury” to a child to include "any impairment of physical condition or pain."[15]

 * [15] "DELAWARE STATE SENATE 146th GENERAL ASSEMBLY, SENATE BILL NO. 234, AN ACT TO AMEND TITLE 11 OF THE DELAWARE CODE RELATING TO OFFENSES AGAINST CHILDREN.

 * "Amending Chapter 5, Title 11 of the Delaware Code by redesignating Section 1100 of Chapter 5, Title 11 as Section 1100A of Chapter 5, Title 11 and further by redesignating current Section 1103 of Chapter 5, Title 11 as Section 1100, of Chapter 5, Title 11, and by further amending the current language of that section ...

This act amends Chapter 5 §1100 to provide as follows:

 * Definitions relating to children:

 * When used in this subchapter:

 * (j) “Physical injury” to a child shall mean any impairment of physical condition or pain.

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20071014154404/http://www.nspcc.org.uk/helpandadvice/publications/leaflets/encouraging_pdf_wdf36202.pdf to http://www.nspcc.org.uk/HelpAndAdvice/Publications/Leaflets/encouraging_pdf_wdf36202.pdf

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Wiki Education assignment: Psychology of the Family
— Assignment last updated by Gishubtr (talk) 22:01, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

"Hotsaucing" should not be listed as non-physical punishment
Inflicting physical pain by putting hot sauce on a child's tongue sure is physical, right? This should go under "Corporal punishment", but does not really fit there because there are no other individual methods listed. Maybe the merge of Hotsaucing to here in 2021 was not the best solution? Biologos (talk) 16:23, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Child discipline