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User talk:198

Stop vandalising wikipedia. Take your concerns to the talk page or I will be forced to block you from editing. Theresa Knott (The torn steak) 23:34, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Removing objectionable material is not vandalism. Placing objectionable material should be considered vandalism, romiving it should (first off) have been the action of an admin, and when the admins failed in their responsibility, it fell to the rest of us with a sense of appropriateness. KeyStroke 21:52, 2004 Oct 10 (UTC)

 * This is your last warning about removing that picture. →Raul654 23:34, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)

 * I've protected the article so that you cannot remove it. This has the advantage of allowing you to voice your opinions without being tempted to vandalise the article. However protection is very unwiki and so we don't protect pages for long. |Learn to respect the community views, and abide by them. Do not try the vandalise the article or I will block you from editing this site. Theresa Knott (The torn steak) 23:50, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Hello "198", I am KeyStroke. I support you and your efforts to bring trustworthiness back to Wikipedia.  I am glad that there is at least one person with a sense of appropriateness who is willing to take the risk you have and stand up to the amoral "group-think" mentality that has crept into Wikipedia, in general, and (appearantly) into the admins in particular.

 * Update. Reason has prevailed in at least one minor way.  I was able to argue that it was inappropriate for Theresa Knott to both be the admin that put the page under protection, as well as arguing for one side of the dispute.  This has resulted in her removing the protection.  Now we can remove the offensive photograph.  However, I am at work at the moment and do not want to risk bringing up a pornographic image on my computer (I could be fired for doing so).  There is no way I know of to remove the image without first having it show up on my computer.  So I cannot remove the image at this time.  KeyStroke

Please learn the rules of the road
I see you are still having revert wars due to pictures you find offensive.

Sorry you find them offensive, but like any community, this one has rules and policies (indeed, these policies didn't show up overnight, and are the result of a lot of evolution) and as a member you have to respect them, or you will be asked to leave.

Please read over Policies and guidelines, as well as Three revert rule and Wikiquette.

You have an opinion, and we respect it. Really. But we are a collaborative community, one in which every opinion counts, and the group consensus disagrees with you. Please, discuss your issues on the talk page, but don't continue an attempt to force your views, as it won't be well received, and, as you've seen, your edits end up getting reverted anyways. Kaszeta 00:17, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * Kaszeta, the reason that the "group consensus" disagrees with the removal of the picture is because a lot of the individuals who edit Wikipedia, and more to the point the individuals who would seek out such a page as clitoris are males who are younger than the age of 30. This skews the profile and opinion.  The admins need to be mroe responsible than the "group consensus" and safegaurd the trustworthiness of the whole site by making sure no suggestive or provocitive photos or text find their way onto the site.  KeyStroke 21:52, 2004 Oct 10 (UTC)

 * Interesting point. If, indeed, the people accessing clitoris are males under 30, shouldn't we respect that (up to a point)? After all, perhaps they want to educate themselves about the (oft-elusive to the inexperienced male under 30) body part; not everyone is just looking up clitoris in a dictionary because they like pornography. Since it's talked about all the time in magazines, television, and popular culture in general, there is a real need for factual information, lest one form one's ideas about naughty parts from Sex and the City or Cosmopolitan magazine. To that end, I think a photograph is inherently much more informative than a drawing, whether or not it offends some sensibilities. Some of the diagrams suggested on the clitoris talk page are altogether scary, and don't convey the visual information that the article warrants.

 * About child filters: does the entire wikipedia become blocked when the clitoris photo is up, or just the clitoris article? If only the article is blocked, I don't see why that's a problem. If parents don't want their children to see vaginas, I don't see why they wouldn't object to articles about vaginas. I simply don't see the difference. If the entire wikipedia is blocked, that's a problem. However, I don't see why we should be forced to conform to flawed filtering software.

 * Nonetheless: would a link to the photo from the article be acceptable, KeyStroke, or 198, or to any of the others that come across this post? Timbo 19:25, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I'll take your above post from the bottom up. In my opinion, yes a link to a photograph would be acceptable, as long as the photograph doesn't reside under a Wikipedia domain.  That why parents, teachers, clergy, librarians and others who want to protect children can do so without banning all of Wikipedia.

 * Regarding nanny-ware, it is my understanding that (at a minimum) the whole domain gets banned, meaning that you can't just ban a few articles, either all of Wikipedia gets banned, or none of it does. It may even be bigger than that, however.  If the software operates off of IP addresses, it may not only ban all of Wikipedia, but all other websites that use the same first few numbers in the IP address.

 * We need to distinguish between those who are more likely to contribute to Wikipedia, and those who will derive the most value from reading the articles. Those who are contributing will (most likely) be over 20, those who will derive the most value from reading what is written are those under 18.  My (wild haired) guess is that the age at which someone gets the most value out of Wikipedia would be about 15 or 16.  So all the voting is skewed.  No one who reads the articles, but does not contribute, gets any vote.  More importantly, those parents who are not contributing (but who would see Wikipedia is highly valuable for their children to read) get any vote at all.  If only the readers were voting, and not the writers (and for any reader under 18, if it was their parents that voted for them) then I am very confident you would see the voting skewed in the other direction.  So we need to take a position of being trustworthy towards those who are not getting to vote.  We need to be responsible for them.

 * There is no way for filtering software to know the content of an image. Filtering software relies on "reports" from users, and others, to know what web sites to filter.  It is assumed that if Wikipedia will allow a pornographic image on one of its subordinate web pages, then a pornographic image could appear on any of its subordinate web pages.  And that is an entirely accurate assumption.  Therefore it is not the filtering software that is flawed.  What is flawed is #1 the voting mechanism on Wikipedia and #2 the absence of a "moral code of ethics" from the owner.  KeyStroke 21:08, 2004 Oct 19 (UTC)

 * Filters will block wiki I did a test with net-nanny recently and wikipedia is blocked.--198 00:46, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

9/11
Good job taking on Gzornenplatz on this article, who has been going after all the 9/11-related material in hopes of minimizing the event. There was a big to-do about this involving a lot of users a long time ago, and we wound up with the compromise of having "terrorist" in the article but not the title of the article (where it used to be). Very Verily 00:38, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I don't really go for the weasely approach. The claim they were not terrorist is analogous to the claim that a plane never hit the Pentagon. Very Verily  01:04, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The French Wikipedia's political articles are packed with fiction. I just try to ignore it. Very Verily 01:19, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Replied on my talk page. —No-One Jones (m) 18:24, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"terrorist"
That's a very good question. Thanks for contacting me. I, too, believe that the 9/11 attacks were terrorist attacks. Prince Bandar, George Bush, and most of humanity agree. However some do not. You know the saying: "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." "Terrorist" is a label, like "freedom fighter". In the interest of NPOV, it's important to be careful not to state opinions as facts, even if the opinions seem obviously true to you. For instance, the Nazi page doesn't say "Nazis are evil", since that's a (well-founded) opinion.

In the case of the term "terrorist", it's much more subtle. It isn't the same as calling someone "evil", but it's definitely a loaded term. The word has a strong subjective meaning (a bad person), but it doesn't have a widely accepted objective meaning. (Was Nixon a terrorist? He bombed civilians in Laos. Is Yassir Arafat a terrorist?) No one has come up with a definition for "terrorist" that even half of commentators accept as legitimate. That's why a NPOV encyclopedia should try to avoid using the loaded term. The article on Terrorism is very informative on this.

Anyway, I hope I haven't offended you. I'm not some wild-eyed Islamist who thinks the 9/11 attacks were somehow justified. I just want to wiki Wikipedia NPOV. – Quadell (talk) (help)  01:17, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)

 * The problem with this reasoning is that you can't infer that just because there are disputed accusations of terrorism, that terrorism itself is a disputed category. For instance, just because some believe that "taxation is theft" does not mean "theft" is therefore a POV category, or merely an opinion.  This is the same illegitimate reasoning used by Wik in his successful revert war to eliminate terrorist from the titles.  9/11 was a terrorist attack; it does not possess any of the ambiguities which other cases do. Very Verily  01:30, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I agree with your theft example, but I disagree that the 9/11 attacks were unambiguously terrorist attacks. Here's why.

One definition of "terrorist attack" might be "an attack designed to instill fear in a population, to acheive a political objective." That's a perfectly reasonable definition. But there's no evidence of what al-Qaida's motivations were. Perhaps they didn't want to instill fear; perhaps it was an intentionally provocative attack. Maybe bin Laden wanted to goad the U.S. into counter-attacking, so that a jihad would result. If so, then the objective wasn't to instill fear, but to instill anger. So by the definition above, it wouldn't be terrorism.

Or someone else might say that terrorism requires that the targets be innocent civilians who are not taking part in the conflict. But the Pentagon attack wasn't against a non-military target. And some would say that the people in the WTC were passively taking part in the conflict (between the U.S. and the Muslim world) by passively contributing to the "American system". I think that's a cop-out, personally, but we can't state as a fact that the attacks were "terrorist" attacks if it can't be shown to be a fact. And since the word "terrorist" does not have a definition that most people agree on, it isn't factual, it's an opinion.

We can disagree on this, and that's fine. But the best way to deal with it is to take a straw poll and work towards consensus (instead of an edit war). – Quadell (talk) (help)  03:53, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)

P.S. Reuters, one of the two most trusted news agencies in the world, doesn't use the word "terrorism" to describe the 9/11 attacks either. They explain:
 * We lost six members of the Reuters family and offices that housed 550 others who thankfully survived. From the first moments after the attacks, Reuters staff around the world worked tirelessly to account for their colleagues, restore our information services to customers, and report the news. However, these efforts have been overshadowed by the controversy over the policy of our Editorial group to avoid using emotional terms such as "terrorist" in their news stories. This policy has served Reuters and, more importantly, our readers well by ensuring access to news as it occurs, wherever it occurs. As a global news organization reporting from 160 countries, Reuters mission is to provide accurate and impartial accounts of events so that individuals, organizations and governments can make their own decisions based on the facts. . . Our policy is to avoid the use of emotional terms and not make value judgments concerning the facts we attempt to report accurately and fairly.

I couldn't have said it better myself. – Quadell (talk) (help)  05:11, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)

(Discussion moved to Talk:September 11, 2001 attacks)

Karl Marx
Why do you insist on calling it high school? Not all English-speaking countries refer to it as high school, so it's essentially POV to compare it only to to that. Secondary school is the international term for the equivalent of what is high school in the United States, and therefore is much more neutral. Sarge Baldy 03:10, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * And most non-Americans won't. And Americans that don't can't click the convenient link to see what secondary education is. Sarge Baldy 03:14, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

Replied on my talk page. —No-One Jones (m) 05:10, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

User Irate
Irate has called me far worse than "idiot", and on more than just a few comments. Your options are a) get used to abuse, or b) mediation or arbitration. Good luck. Jayjg 05:22, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

And what were those things, or is this just another example of you blowing things up to hise your racism?--Jirate 11:59, 2004 Oct 25 (UTC)

 * Well, yes, "racist" for a start. And "ignorant", "arrogant",  "snide little gob shite", "manipulative", "without any value", "spoilt brat",  "dishonest",  "dishonest and manipulative",  "unpleasant toerag",  "self-righteous prig",, etc.  Or are those terms of endearment in Liverpool? Jayjg 17:40, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * It can only be considered abuse if it's not true. You original message on this page, validates several of my complaints and you last message validates some more.--Jirate 18:16, 2004 Oct 25 (UTC)
 * Actually it is considered abuse true or not. We don't allow personal attacks here on Wikipedia. Theresa Knott (Not the skater) 22:51, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I thought Jayjg and I had called it quits several weeks ago,but obviously Jayjg hadn't..--Jirate 23:08, 2004 Oct 25 (UTC)
 * "Called it quits"? I've never called you a name, then or now. Jayjg 23:12, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Amongst other things you accused me over ignoring votes, which is far worse than calling names. Went round and marked articles I'd created for deletion, questioned my motivation etc etc. There are plenty of way of being unpleasant without using unpleasant words.--Jirate 23:23, 2004 Oct 25 (UTC)
 * Evidence for these claims would be mildly interesting, though I doubt forthcoming. And the two articles you created that I marked for deletion were, in fact, either deleted or turned into re-directs, indicating that marking them that way was wise. Jayjg 00:33, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * 'I suspect that this user will interpret any votes that don't explicitly say "delete" as votes to keep the page. Jayjg 20:53, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)'--Jirate 00:57, 2004 Oct 26 (UTC)
 * I didn't accuse you of "ignoring" votes, I said I suspected you would interpret any vote which didn't explicitly say "delete" as a vote to keep the page. There's a difference. Jayjg 04:15, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * You shouldn't be saying such comments Irate.--198 22:46, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I thought Jayjg and I had called it quits several weeks ago,but obviously Jayjg hadn't..--Jirate 23:08, 2004 Oct 25 (UTC)

 * Well I truly hope you do call it quits because unpleasentness is seriously bad for wikipedia. A good tip, which i try my best to follow, is to think of a newbie reading a talk page for the first time. If a comment is rude and likely to make them run a mile we shouldn't be saying it. Theresa Knott (Not the skater) 23:13, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I agree with Theresa.--198 23:15, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * A tip I intend to follow is to avaoid talk pages.

--Jirate 23:23, 2004 Oct 25 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't recommend making controversial edits if you aren't willing to defend them in Talk: pages. Jayjg 00:33, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Micronation dispute tag
I notice you restored the dispute tag at micronation. My issue with this is that Gzornenplatz, having made a massive song-and-dance routine about 2 alleged points of dispute, has failed to produce even a single piece of supporting evidence in nearly 2 months to demonstrate how his points of contention can be considered to have a reasonable foundation in anything other than his POV. One can only logically assume from this that there is no such evidence (I knew that 7 weeks ago of course, but I permitted him plenty of time to come up with something anyway, as I stated in my talk page post of 19 September). Simply restating that there is a disagreement, as he did yesterday, is insufficient justification to retain a dispute tag. If it was any nutter could simply say they disagree with something in any article they dislike in order to manufacture and artifcially propagate a dispute without ever being committed to seeking a resolution. It is obviously Gzornenplatz's modus operandi to cause any articles he disagrees with to be forced into protection, or failing that, have them listed as being under dispute; this is clearly an example of that pattern of behaviour.--Gene_poole 04:52, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Clitoris
Please refrain from adding a disclaimer to Clitoris all the time. There was a vote on the talk page of the article with a clear outcome; I'd like to respectfully request that you respect the community's decision, even if it does not match your own personal opinion. -- Schnee 21:59, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I notice you wrote you will continuously remove the picture from Clitoris. Did you really mean this? I'm considering removing the lock from the page and keep an eye on the page for continuous reverts. I'm telling you this to give you fair warning, if I unlock the page and I find you remove the image more than three times, I will put you on a 72 hour block. - Ta bu shi da yu 12:06, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Jimbo Wales Was Here!
Do you remember that time we chatted on IRC and you complained that Jimbo was too good to come discuss things with the common editors? And then I edited your page as a joke? Well, that vile Snowspinner is attempting to get me banned for harrassing you -- please set him straight at: evidence sub-page. Lirath Q. Pynnor

For the last time, you are not welcome on my user talk page
This is the first — and last — time I will be speaking to you directly. You have appeared on my user talk page for the last time, you know that you are unwelcome there, and I have absolutely no interest in appearing on yours or engaging with any sort of discourse with you directly beyond the following warning: cease trolling my user talk page immediately or I will consider other channels. And most definitely do –not– answer this comment on my talk page. — Lest we forget! ;) Kitty 00:00, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

El_C 08:34, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * You can be very rude El_C, but I won't listen to you either!--198 00:45, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

clitoris
Hi 198. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "if informal, than it doesn't count." I'm not going to re-revert because I'm tired of it and I don't want to look too much like Johnny Revertmonger, but somebody else will probably take out the tag pretty quick. Are you unsatisfied with the notice at the top of the talk page? T IMBO  ( T A L K )  05:46, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

September 11, 2001 attacks
Kindly do not leave such an aggressive note on my talk page again. There is a consensus on the article's talk page that the paragraph about children is weak. If it were better written and better cited, I'd have no problem with it, but as it stands, it looks a bit silly. It was, I believe, originally inserted by an editor who never responds to any messages either on his talk page or on the article's talk page, and yet who keeps reinserting it when others remove it. Please go to that talk page and argue to keep it; or better still, if you want it to be there, rewrite it with better references. Either way, there is absolutely no need for threats. Aggression will only achieve the opposite of what you're seeking to achieve, unless of course you're actively seeking hostility, in which case you've been singularly successful. SlimVirgin 04:06, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)

Autofellatio
Come on 198, can you in all honesty call a drawing a porn picture? T IMBO  ( T A L K )  03:22, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Did you ever stop to think about this? Autofellatio is not a novel concept, and a child could draw the act himself if he were so inclined. T IMBO  ( T A L K )  19:57, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

September 11, 2001 attacks
Hi Mark, regarding the section on the effects of children, there appears to be a consensus on the talk page to remove it. If you have further objections to this, could you make them at Talk:September 11, 2001 attacks, please? Many thanks, SlimVirgin 20:15, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks, Mark, I appreciate it. SlimVirgin 06:03, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

Offensive images
As it happens, I don't think you were entirely misguided over the clitoris picture, and you were somewhat bullied. Your views might not be in accord with the majority here (who tend towards a liberal view on expression), that doesn't mean that they should not be respected. Okay, it did all get a bit heated, but it's easy to feel that the only course open to a dissenter is to revert and battle over edits, when the dialogue has broken down.

I hope that a compromise over that page (and others that contain potentially offensive images too) is not impossible. Would you be willing to explore a compromise with those on the "other side" who are willing to talk about it? Yes, it's going to be impossible to have a Wikipedia that doesn't feature pictures that you find objectionable, but perhaps we could work for something that is at least somewhat acceptable for all who are willing not to be extreme about it? Then, once that compromise is found, those that insist on not accepting it are revealed for what they are.

Let me know what you think.Dr Zen 00:53, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your message. You were one of the hardest core opponents of the clitoris picture, but what I'd like to know is, would you be interested in making a compromise? What if the image could be linked? Or if the page could be forked, so that those who wanted to see the picture could, but those who didn't could be spared it? Would you accept that sort of idea?

I'm not concerned about the arbitration process. It's entirely fraudulent. But what would be fantastic would be to get a group of editors from each side to discuss with mutual respect a compromise (or at least to explore whether one is possible) without the interjection from extremists who shout "we had a vote, you lost, we get to put what we like on the page", which has no place in a wiki. Find a compromise that people are happy with and then the hardliners are left on the outside. Do it for clitoris and we can do it for autofellatio, which I agree with you is the same battle, and for penis.

But it depends on the editors, of course, including you. Can you compromise? Or is it no picture or nothing for you? Dr Zen 05:39, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Howdy this is KeyStroke - I rarely visit Wikipedia anymore as I consider it a 'moral wasteland' that has been made so by the overwhelming liberal viewpoint individuals who edit here. It appears, to me, that Wikipedia appeals to academia or to Linux-lovers (who would also be Microsoft-haters, and by inference, capitalism-haters).   So I have gone back to using Encarta for most lookups and abandoned my plans for extensive editing here.

 * As such this is the case, I am really not interested in striving for a compromise with those who want to make an encyclopedia (which would have the most value for children) into a platform for amoral advocacy.

 * In other words, Wikipedia had their chance to convince me that they are reasonable and prudent when it came to articles with questionable moral content. They failed.

 * I now consider Wikipedia to be the playground of satanic forces. I rarely, if ever, edit anymore, and have even gotten out of the habit of looking here for articles. KeyStroke 23:13, 2005 Mar 11 (UTC)

Children section
Hi Mark, just to let you know that I removed the children section from September 11, 2001 attacks. Thank you for agreeing to that. I have a question: you seemed to have strong feelings about the issue to begin with, and I was wondering if you could say a bit more about why you felt strongly that the section should remain. Don't elaborate if you don't want to, but I'm genuinely interested in seeing your point of view. Best, SlimVirgin 00:24, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)

Offensive photos
Hello, I don't think the photos like Oral sex should be removed altogether, but I do question the way they're currently presented. Did you notice the other two photos uploaded by the same (presumed sockpuppet) user at the same time? See Woman on top sex position and Group sex.

Also, do be mindful of the three revert rule (although I'm sure you're well aware of it). Really, significant content changes should be discussed on the talk page. Cool Hand Luke  10:58, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"porn" pictures and kids
Hi.

Though there is some controversy on the matter of what might be offensive or not offensive to kids depending on cultures, there is generally a consensus that Wikipedia 1) is first of all for adult and 2) that editors should not censor themselves the content, upon the reason it might offend someone. I know this is very tough, but ultimately, if *we* allow editors to censor the content, some might censor porn, others will censor violence, other will censor women speech, then others religious articles, or political articles. There is no limit to what our weakness could make us censor. I use the word weakness, not to offend you, but to make you realise that *any* of us is shocked one day or another by what is in the encyclopedia. For you, it might be a clitoris picture, for others it will be a severed head, for me it was extrem pov on political matters, for others it will be something else. We have all something that makes us react strongly one day. But even though it happens, we must try to resist it, because we try to work for information to be available.

If you want to work in a more constructive way, ie, in a way to make Wikipedia, a resource available to every one, I urge you to take another direction. Some suggestions :
 * some of us work to make some wikireaders for kids 8-12. You might join, why not to make a kid wikireader on sexual education that might fit the average american approach of it ?
 * some of us think of making a wikikids, an encyclopedia edited by and for kids 8-18.
 * some of us try to think of a categorizing system which might allow parents to choose to display or not display sex/violence etc... Ie, give all information, and make it possible that people make their own informed decision on what they want their kids to know but do not impose on the whole word wikipedia position on the matter.

What do you think ?

Anthere (Proud mom of 2 kids, 7 and 8, and expecting another one).

Reverting Autofellatio
As I mentioned on Talk:Autofellatio, I understand that you're disgusted with the drawing but you're clearly in the minority here. Please stop reverting it, as you may be blocked for a violation of the three revert rule. I hate to fall back on policy, but I don't think many people will go along with your suggestion of linking the drawing. I think it's an excessive amount of restraint - it's just a drawing. Rhobite 05:11, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)

 * I think you're mistaken. Jimbo removed the photograph but I don't think he did anything to the drawing. I understand your concerns about children, but Wikipedia cannot restrict itself in order to appease certain parents. We have pictures of torture, dead people, and yes, sexuality. Kids learn about sex at some point. Personally I'd rather if my kids had their questions answered by a neutrally-written encyclopedia than if their questions went unanswered. Rhobite 05:19, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)

 * I would ask you to reconsider leaving. You may be in a minority, and may be forced to compromise, but as soon as majorities are driving minorities away in frustration, Wikipedia has failed. regards, dab (ᛏ) 07:49, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * I also ask you not to leave over this matter. I suggest you take a wikivacation, and when you come back, remove this article and others that cause you stress from your watchlist. There are areas of Wikipedia that I've never got involved with because I know they'd cause me stress.-gadfium 08:16, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Words of wisdom. T IMBO  ( T A L K )  08:53, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * Hi 198.

Hello Anthere, I saw your message on my talk page. Now I'll be the 1st to confess I was overreacting on the Clitoris article (as a matter of fact I used to LOVE looking at playboy when I was in 'Nam, and still do once and while to this day) However, I personally think as a strong Christian that there's certain age when you should be exposed to those sort of things.
 * I also agree 198. But the fact kids should only be exposed to such pictures at a certain age does not mean every one should not have the option to see them. I also think it is a matter of education to provide to the kids, and of tools to develop to avoid them seeing the pictures. This is why I am favorable to us developing a tool which might help parents put filters on such articles. Then, it will people choice to make these available or not available. If we remove the pictures ourselves, we impose our pov to readers. And if we just put them with a link, we do not avoid kids seeing it. They know better than not clicking on a juicy link.

As a matter of fact I discovered wikipedia because of my younger daughter Jen shown this site to me (she's under 18, and I don't want her to see picture like the one on Autofellatio). Now I understand you're French (I seen you're Bio page), you have very different cultural values than we Americans, however, in this country it's Illegal to show pornographic pictures to minors. Now I'm not making a legal threat (I’m no lawyer either but I was reading about it). However, if a parent sees that Autofellatio picture (or even the drawing possibly), your website my have some problems with the US Department of Justice.
 * Nod. But I might dare saying that our project is NOT american, but a world wide construction. So, it must fit with all cultures. I agree with you that the database servers are hosted in the USA though, but this is essentially for two reasons : first the foundator is american, so he hosted the initial server where it appeared logical. Second, the USA are claimed to be amongst the more liberal and respectful countries on Earth. Now, if the US government ever has the strange idea to make our site illegal due to a few offending pictures, I promise I will suggest JImbo that the db servers are moved to France :-) I fear he will choke to death, as he considers my country one plagued by censorship (this point is a major point of contention between the two of us :-)). But, well, in short, I am confident the US Department of Justice would not shut down a site like ours on such motives. If so, we might host censored topics in another country :-)

I'd love the idea of children's wikipedia, so long as it doesn't touch controversial topics such as Autofellatio. (Now I might be blocked for breaking the three-revert rule, for attempting the link the drawing). Thank you Anthere (or Florence which ever you prefer)--198 05:11, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * I think if we were doing a kid wikipedia, there would be no chance such a picture is on it.
 * I understand you are very upset to be in minority here 198, and I agree minorities should be listened to. I also think some of the strongest defendants of the images are doing so for the principle, rather than for the quality of the image, or the information on it. I also think that some of what you fight for (such as linking of drawings) as very little chance to occur, while fights for removal of some images have more chance. I think that you would have more chance to be listened to if you focused on the most important fights to you, and let aside the least offensive points. Also, there is more chance you gather followers in avoiding to fight for lost issues. At least as a first step....I am also not sure refusing rules to fight for your view point is the best choice. I already saw a user:number very similar to you lost such a fight (168...) over principles. There is little chance to reach a consensus this way. If I dare say as well, accept the fact youngers who did not go to Vietnam, or younger crazy french women with different cultures think differently, which do not mean either that you are wrong or that they are wrong. Just different :-)

 * Well, Wikipedia is a very tough world sometimes. It is potentially very exhausting. But we *need* all povs. And we certainly do not want minorities to give up. Please, have a break, and consider coming back for those who asked you to do this, just above. Do not forget to look at flowers growing. Cheers. user:Anthere.

Anthere is right. We really need your POV. Point of fact, I think editors with your views are already under-represented on Wikipedia. At any rate, would you be willing to accept a compromise to link the image on Oral sex? I'd really appreciate it if you speak up on the talk page. Cool Hand Luke  23:33, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

9/11
Thanks for your note, Mark. I'm sorry to hear about your friend, and I can certainly understand now why you have strong feelings about it. Best, SlimVirgin 03:42, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)

autofellatio drawing
It seems a little silly to me to quibble over the drawing. Go ahead and move it down if you feel so strongly, I guess. T IMBO  ( T A L K )  04:54, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * This edit summary is not really good faith. Why not try to get others to agree with you via the talk page? T IMBO  ( T A L K )  07:59, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

welcome
glad to hear it. WP needs your input, I think. Just remember to take a break whenever you feel stressed: it's only the internet. dab (ᛏ) 14:01, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Alpha order
Hi 198! I've replied at Talk:Jerusalem. In short, I think the alpha order is unencyclopedic because to be consistent, almost all the disputed places will have to be changed into Arabic first (except where Amharic is first), without regards to history. Regards. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 06:10, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * I appreciate your understanding. Unfortunately I just realized I'm out of my 3 reverts. Earlier I had a rule not to engage in edit wars, but that didn't work. Sigh... Thanks, colleague!  ←Humus sapiens←Talk 06:48, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, I'm sure a reasonable compromise can be reached on talk. There isn't that much in dispute, after all, just a simple matter of wording. Everyking 06:32, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Masturbation
Would you care to register an opinon on the Masturbation Talk page as to whether a full color photograph of male masturbation is suitable for that page? Thank you. Force10 21:55, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, Mark!
For supporting my RfA. It was great seeing you voting for me, considering our past dispute (not to mention the rudeness of my cat towards you in your attempt to gain membership for OiHA!). Also, I want to reiterate that I found your apology a few months before to have been greatly to your credit. Really, a while ago I would have thought it virtually impossible to be speaking to you, let alone praising you. Yet, here we are. And it gives me great pleasure to do so. Many thanks, and all the best to you, El_C 00:48, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Vyacheslav Molotov
If you want to discuss this, do so on Talk:Vyacheslav Molotov. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 08:38, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) Reverting edits with nothing more than "rv lol you've GOT to be kidding me :)" or "rv mel's edits" is not acceptable, especially when your reversion turns NPoV into PoV language.
 * 2) Reverting when someone else has edited in between, thus deleting all their changes (in this case, extensive changes to the inter-Wiki information) is even more unacceptable, not to mention very bad manners.

 * I greatly appreciate you being reasonable, colleague.  ←Humus sapiens←Talk 05:45, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

"I don't compromise with Communists"

Perhaps you don't, but let's take a look at your country:
 * 1) Compromised with Al Qaeda by pulling out of Saudi Arabia? Check
 * 2) Reagan flees Lebanon after the attack on the Marine barracks? Check
 * 3) How about Vietnam? Hmm, Image:Vietnamescape.jpg - Check

"A capitalist would sell you the rope to hang him with" -- Lenin

Or as Cde. Khrushchev once said - "we will bury you" - Ruy Lopez 04:44, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Hi
Hi. Ḉɱ̍ 2nd anniv.   20:28, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

title: User talk:198


text:
Valery Bryusov

Valery Yakovlevich Bryusov (Вале́рий Я́ковлевич Брю́сов; 13 December 1873 – 9 October 1924) was a Russian poet, prose writer, dramatist, translator, critic and historian. He was one of the principal members of the Russian Symbolist movement.

Background
Valery Bryusov was born on 13 December 1873 (1 December 1873 according to the old Julian calendar) into a merchant's family in Moscow. His parents were educated for their class and had some literary associations, but had little to do with his upbringing, leaving the boy largely to himself. He spent a great deal of time reading "everything that fell into [his] hands", including the works of Charles Darwin and Jules Verne, as well as various materialistic and scientific essays. The future poet received an excellent education, studying in two private Moscow gymnasia between 1885 and 1893.

Career
Bryusov began his literary career in the early 1890s while still a student at Moscow State University with his translations of the poetry of the French Symbolists (Paul Verlaine, Maurice Maeterlinck, and Stéphane Mallarmé) as well at that of Edgar Allan Poe. Bryusov also began to publish his own poems, which were very much influenced by the Decadent and Symbolist movements of his contemporary Europe. During this time Bryusov came under the influence of the philosopher Nikolai Fyodorovich Fyodorov and the scientist Konstantin Tsiolkovsky.

At the time, Russian Symbolism was still mainly a set of theories and had few notable practitioners. Therefore, in order to represent Symbolism as a movement of formidable following, Bryusov adopted numerous pen names and published three volumes of his own verse, entitled ''Russian Symbolists. An Anthology'' (1894–95). Bryusov's mystification proved successful – several young poets were attracted to Symbolism as the latest fashion in Russian letters.

With the appearance of Tertia Vigilia in 1900, he came to be revered by other Symbolists as an authority in matters of art. In 1904 he became the editor of the influential literary magazine Vesy (The Balance), which consolidated his position in the Russian literary world. Bryusov's mature works were notable for their celebration of sensual pleasures as well as their mastery of a wide range of poetic forms, from the acrostic to the carmina figurata.

By the 1910s, Bryusov's poetry had begun to seem cold and strained to many of his contemporaries. As a result, his reputation gradually declined and, with it, his power in the Russian literary world. He was adamantly opposed to the efforts of Georgy Chulkov and Vyacheslav Ivanov to move Symbolism in the direction of Mystical Anarchism.

Though many of his fellow Symbolists fled Russia after the Russian Revolution of 1917, Bryusov remained until his death in 1924. He supported the Bolshevik government and received a position in the cultural ministry of the new Soviet state. Shortly before his death he was involved with Otto Schmidt in drawing up the proposal for the Great Soviet Encyclopedia.

In 1924, shortly before his death, Bryusov posed for the young sculptor Nina Niss-Goldman (1893–1990). Now the portrait is in the Russian Museum of St. Petersburg in a collection of the work of Russian avant-garde artists.

Literature
Alongside Adelina Adalis (1900–1969) and Nikolay Gumilev (1886–1921), he was influenced by the Malaysian literature from the XIX and XX century.

Prose
Bryusov's most famous prose works are the historical novels The Altar of Victory (depicting life in Ancient Rome) and The Fiery Angel (depicting the psychological climate of 16th century Germany). The latter tells the story of a knight's attempts to win the love of a young woman whose spiritual integrity is seriously undermined by her participation in occult practices and her dealings with unclean forces. It served as the basis for Sergei Prokofiev's opera The Fiery Angel.

Bryusov also wrote some science fiction stories, under the influence of Poe, H. G. Wells and Camille Flammarion. Several of these, including the title story, were assembled in his collection The Republic of the Southern Cross.

Translation
As a translator, Bryusov was the first to render the works of the Belgian poet Emile Verhaeren and the lyrics of Armenian ashugh Sayat-Nova accessible to Russian readers. He was one of the major translators of Paul Verlaine's poetry.

His most famous translations are of Edgar Allan Poe, Romain Rolland, Maurice Maeterlinck, Victor Hugo, Jean Racine, Ausonius, Molière, Byron, and Oscar Wilde. Bryusov also translated Johann Goethe's Faust and Virgil's Aeneid.

List of major works

 * Juvenilia, 1894
 * Chefs d’oeuvre, 1895
 * Me eum esse, 1897
 * Tertia Vigilia, 1900
 * In the Mirror, 1902
 * Urbi et Orbi, 1903
 * Stephanos, 1905
 * The Fiery Angel, 1908
 * All Melodies, 1909
 * The Altar of Victory, 1913
 * Rea Silvia, 1916

Works in English translation

 * The Republic of the Southern Cross and Other Stories, Constable, London, 1918. from Archive.org Contains several science fiction stories.
 * The Fiery Angel: A Sixteenth Century Romance, Hyperion Press, 1978.
 * Diary of Valery Bryusov, University of California Press, 1980.
 * The Fiery Angel: Dedalus European Classics, Dedalus Limited, 2005.

Legacy
For his Russian translation of the Armenian folk epic “David of Sasun,” Bryusov was designated People's Poet of Armenia in 1923. Yerevan Brusov State University of Languages and Social Sciences, a public university in the capital of Armenia, has been named after Valery Bryusov since 1962.

Ukrainian composer Inna Abramovna Zhvanetskaya used Bryusov's text for at least one of the songs in her vocal collection Romances.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Valery Bryusov


text:
Category:Seinfeld

Category for situation comedy Seinfeld (1989–1998)

title: Category:Seinfeld


text: Category:Seinfeld characters

title: Category:Seinfeld characters


text:
Faceless Killers

Faceless Killers (Swedish: Mördare utan ansikte) is a 1991 crime novel by the Swedish writer Henning Mankell, and the first in his acclaimed Wallander series. The English translation by Steven T. Murray was published in 1997.

In 1992, Faceless Killers won the first ever Glass Key award, given to crime writers from the Nordic countries.

Synopsis
Inside an almost isolated Skåne farmhouse in Lunnarp, an old man, Johannes Lövgren, is tortured to death and his wife Maria savagely beaten and left for dead with a noose around her neck. Inspector Kurt Wallander, a forty-two-year-old Ystad police detective, is put on the case with his team: Rydberg, an aging detective with rheumatism; Martinsson, a 29-year-old rookie; Naslund, a thirty-year veteran; Svedberg, a balding, forty-something-year-old detective; Hansson and Peters. Maria Lovgren is taken to hospital, but dies anyway. Her last word: "foreign".

Rydberg has been examining the noose around Mrs Lovgren's neck and "has never seen one like it before". He thinks that Mrs Lovgren's last word is accurate, and that the murderers are foreign. But his conclusion leads to several racially-motivated attacks after the information is leaked to the press.

Overview
The novel focuses on Sweden's liberal attitude regarding immigration, and explores themes of racism and national identity in the wake of the refugee controversy in Sjöbo and numerous controversial hate crimes, including the growth of skinhead and Neo-Nazi movements, and the rise of the populist New Democracy party. It only describes the situation in the country without any challenge or criticism.

Adaptations
The novel was adapted into a four-episode television miniseries, Wallander, by the Swedish public broadcaster Sveriges Television in 1994. Wallander is played by Rolf Lassgård.

Faceless Killers has also been adapted into a 90-minute television episode for the BBC's Wallander series starring Kenneth Branagh as Wallander. It was first broadcast on 3 January 2010. Fredrik Gunnarsson, who played Svartman in the Swedish TV series, had a cameo in this episode. Notably, in the episode, the ethnicity of the killers was changed from Yugoslav to Arab, possibly due to the decreased actuality of the Yugoslav wars and in recognition of later refugee currents from the Iraq War, which was notable in Swedish political debate already in the 2000s.

The novel has also been broadcast on BBC Radio 7, read by the English actor David Warner, who plays Wallander's father in the British television adaptation of Wallander.

title: Faceless Killers


text:
Category:Wayne County, Utah

Wayne County is in central Utah in the USA

title: Category:Wayne County, Utah


text:
Mollweide projection

The Mollweide projection is an equal-area, pseudocylindrical map projection generally used for maps of the world or celestial sphere. It is also known as the Babinet projection, homalographic projection, homolographic projection, and elliptical projection. The projection trades accuracy of angle and shape for accuracy of proportions in area, and as such is used where that property is needed, such as maps depicting global distributions.

The projection was first published by mathematician and astronomer Karl (or Carl) Brandan Mollweide (1774–1825) of Leipzig in 1805. It was reinvented and popularized in 1857 by Jacques Babinet, who gave it the name homalographic projection. The variation homolographic arose from frequent nineteenth-century usage in star atlases.

Properties
The Mollweide is a pseudocylindrical projection in which the equator is represented as a straight horizontal line perpendicular to a central meridian that is one-half the equator's length. The other parallels compress near the poles, while the other meridians are equally spaced at the equator. The meridians at 90 degrees east and west form a perfect circle, and the whole earth is depicted in a proportional 2:1 ellipse. The proportion of the area of the ellipse between any given parallel and the equator is the same as the proportion of the area on the globe between that parallel and the equator, but at the expense of shape distortion, which is significant at the perimeter of the ellipse, although not as severe as in the sinusoidal projection.

Shape distortion may be diminished by using an interrupted version. A sinusoidal interrupted Mollweide projection discards the central meridian in favor of alternating half-meridians which terminate at right angles to the equator. This has the effect of dividing the globe into lobes. In contrast, a parallel interrupted Mollweide projection uses multiple disjoint central meridians, giving the effect of multiple ellipses joined at the equator. More rarely, the projection can be drawn obliquely to shift the areas of distortion to the oceans, allowing the continents to remain truer to form.

The Mollweide, or its properties, has inspired the creation of several other projections, including the Goode's homolosine, van der Grinten and the Boggs eumorphic.

Mathematical formulation
The projection transforms from latitude and longitude to map coordinates x and y via the following equations:

 * $$\begin{align} x &= R \frac{2 \sqrt 2}{\pi} \left( \lambda - \lambda_{0} \right) \cos \theta, \\[5px] y &= R \sqrt 2 \sin \theta ,\end{align}$$

where θ is an auxiliary angle defined by

 * $$2\theta + \sin 2\theta = \pi \sin \varphi \qquad (1)$$

and λ is the longitude, λ$0$ is the central meridian, φ is the latitude, and R is the radius of the globe to be projected. The map has area 4$\pi$R$2$, conforming to the surface area of the generating globe. The x-coordinate has a range of [−2R√2, 2R√2], and the y-coordinate has a range of [−R√2, R√2].

Equation (1) may be solved with rapid convergence (but slow near the poles) using Newton–Raphson iteration:

 * $$\begin{align} \theta_0 &= \varphi, \\ \theta_{n+1} &= \theta_n - \frac{2 \theta_n + \sin 2\theta_n - \pi \sin \varphi}{2 + 2 \cos 2\theta_n}.\end{align}$$

If φ = ±$\pi⁄2$, then also θ = ±$\pi⁄2$. In that case the iteration should be bypassed; otherwise, division by zero may result.

There exists a closed-form inverse transformation:

 * $$\begin{align} \varphi &= \arcsin \frac{2 \theta + \sin 2\theta}{\pi}, \\[5px] \lambda &= \lambda_{0} + \frac{\pi x}{2 R \sqrt{2} \cos \theta}, \end{align}$$

where θ can be found by the relation

 * $$\theta = \arcsin \frac{y}{R \sqrt{2}}. \,$$

The inverse transformations allow one to find the latitude and longitude corresponding to the map coordinates x and y.

title: Mollweide projection


text:
Talk:Hans-Gunnar Liljenwall

Untitled
Does anyone know if the Hans-Gunnar Liljenvall listed on this page (as a university lecturer in electrical engineering) is the same person, or merely someone with the same name? Billy Beer 23:50, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

title: Talk:Hans-Gunnar Liljenwall


text:
Théo Sarapo

Theophanis Lamboukas (Greek: Θεοφάνης Λαμπουκάς, 26 January 1936 – 28 August 1970), professionally known as Théo Sarapo, was a French singer and actor, the second husband of Édith Piaf. Formerly a hairdresser, he was 26 years old when he married the 46-year-old Piaf. He was introduced to her by Claude Figus, Piaf's secretary.

Biography
Sarapo was born in Paris to Greek parents. He scored a hit with Piaf in 1962 with the song "À quoi ça sert l'amour?" (What Good Is Love?) and solo hits with "La maison qui ne chante plus" (The House Which No Longer Sings), and "Ce jour viendra" (That Day Will Come); its English-language version, "Our Day Will Come", was covered by Ruby & the Romantics and others.

When he began singing with Piaf, Sarapo's voice was rather nasal, but over the next few years his tone mellowed. His other hits included "La Ronde" (The Round) and "Nous n'étions pas pareils" (We Weren't Alike).

As an actor, Sarapo's best- known film was Judex, directed by Georges Franju, which was being filmed at the time of Piaf's death.

Upon Piaf's death, French law transferred her seven million francs' worth of debts directly to Sarapo. This led to his eviction on Christmas Day 1963 from the apartment they shared on Boulevard Lannes.

Sarapo, who was 34 at the time, died in a hospital in Limoges, France, after an automobile accident on 28 August 1970 in the nearby town of Panazol on road RN 141. He is buried with Piaf and her daughter Marcelle (the child Piaf had with Louis Dupont, her onetime lover), in Père Lachaise Cemetery in Paris. The inscription on their tomb translates as "Love Conquers All". Édith's father, Louis Alphonse Gassion, is also buried there. His name is engraved on the right side of the tombstone along with Édith's and Théo's. Daughter Marcelle's name appears on the opposite side. Etched at the foot of the tomb are the words "Famille (Family) Gassion-Piaf."

Édith Piaf
Sarapo was the last in a long line of Piaf discoveries (including Yves Montand, Les Compagnons de la chanson, Georges Moustaki, Charles Aznavour, etc.). Sarapo often recorded and performed in concert with Piaf during their marriage.

Stage name
His stage name "Sarapo", as pronounced in French, is Greek for "I love you" (Σ'αγαπώ, s'agapo) and was chosen by Piaf herself.

title: Théo Sarapo


text:
A5147 road

The A5147 is a road in northern England that runs from Maghull in Merseyside to Scarisbrick in Lancashire.

Merseyside
It begins off the A59 road in Maghull, where it is called Liverpool Road North. After leaving the town, it crosses over the Leeds and Liverpool Canal in Lydiate. It passes the Scotch Piper Inn before entering Lancashire at Downholland Cross.

Lancashire
It crosses over the canal twice more, then proceeds onto Haskayne and Halsall, passing through open countryside, before terminating at its junction with the A570 road in Scarisbrick. In total the road is about 7.5 mi long, and is built entirely to single carriageway standard.

title: A5147 road


text:
Brown Peak

Brown Peak (or Brown Peaks) may refer to:

 * Brown Peak (Sturge Island), the highest point of the Balleny Islands in Antarctica
 * Brown Peaks, a series of low peaks surmounting the Amundsen Glacier in Antarctica
 * Rudmose Brown Peak, a peak southwest of Mount Hurley in Antarctica

title: Brown Peak


text:
User:Tronno

>:[

title: User:Tronno


text:
Talk:Mollweide projection

More details
In addition to the obvious need for images, this article ought to be fleshed out with the mathematical formulae for creation of the project, q.v. http://mathworld.wolfram.com/MollweideProjection.html.

"but at the expense of shape distortion, which is significant at the corners"

What is meant by 'corners' here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.217.99 (talk) 13:26, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

 * . I agree that "corners" is confusing here, because an ellipse has no corners.
 * I replaced that phrase with
 * ..."but at the expense of shape distortion, with is significant at the perimeter of the ellipse"....
 * even though that is a little bit over-simplified.
 * I hope that the Tissot's Indicatrix is adequate to show the details of exactly where and how much distortion there is, rather than try to describe it in words. --68.0.124.33 (talk) 06:13, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Interrupted Mollweide?
Is there a wiki page on interrupted Mollweide projection maps? See, for example, this page at Clarkson University, or this one at Colorado State. There are also some royalty-free maps available here (though I doubt they'd let those go under CopyLeft).

NASA has some software available here. They have an interrupted Mollweide map of the oceans. I s'pose the code could be adapted to produce maps of land masses instead. Note that these are produced by NASA (and so are PD).

Anyone wanna add a section to this article? And add some images? Maybe I'll get bored later this week and add it myself. Sigh.

cheers, 66.25.169.151 (talk) 07:58, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

HomAlographic
The second line in second paragraph reads "It was popularized by Jacques Babinet in 1857, giving it the name homalographic projection.[1]" <-- Should it be homolographic with an "O" vs. "A". Wasn't sure if this is an old spelling or not. Please confirm.

Cheers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.228.98.160 (talk) 19:15, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

 * Both spellings are in use. “Homalographic” was the name Babinet applied, but the projection was used in many 19th century star atlases, for example, where the variations in spelling cropped up. Strebe (talk) 21:21, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Scaling factor and inverse formula
The sqrt(2) linear scaling factor can be removed from expressions for both x and y to simplify them.

This mapping has also very simple inverse formula, not needing any iteration - first solve theta from y, then solve latitude from theta equation and longitude from equation for x.

62.24.73.63 (talk) 20:45, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

 * The scale factor is to promote a reasonable nominal scale for the map, which is normal practice in the cartographic literature. The inverse is simple; feel free to add it. Strebe (talk) 21:30, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

 * Strebe, I do not understand. The way it is written right now, the x-coordinates run from -2√2 to +2√2, and the y-coordinates run from -√2 to +√2. Wouldn’t it make sense to get rid of the extraneous √2 and have x run from -2 to 2, and y from -1 to 1? I am going to make this change AND make a note in the text of the article indicating the range of x and y, because right now there is no such information. Qaanol (talk) 19:33, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

 * Your edit contradicts the footnote source, which you should not do. Please discuss these things further if you don’t understand rather than encoding your misunderstanding in the article. The √2 factor is not “extraneous”. Its presence yields a mapped space having the same area as the surface area of the generating globe, which is, after all, one of the goals of an equal-area map. Strebe (talk) 20:47, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

 * Ah, that makes sense: the map is made to have the same area as the globe it is projected from. Thank you. I’ve added a few words to note the range of x and y. Qaanol (talk) 22:46, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Replace low-contrast images
I will be replacing images on the various map projection pages. Presently many are on a satellite composite image from NASA that, while realistic, poorly demonstrates the projections because of dark color and low contrast. I have created a stylization of the same data with much brighter water areas and a light graticule to contrast. See the thumbnail of the example from another article. Some images on some pages are acceptable but differ stylistically from most articles; I will replace these also.

The images will be high resolution and antialiased, with 15° graticules for world projections, red, translucent equator, red tropics, and blue polar circles.

Please discuss agreement or objections over here (not this page). I intend to start these replacements on 13 August. Thank you. Strebe (talk) 22:45, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

File:Mollweide projection SW.jpg to appear as POTD soon
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Mollweide projection SW.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on January 2, 2017. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2017-01-02. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 08:49, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

 * Perfect, Chris Woodrich! Strebe (talk) 23:15, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

Newton-Raphson with fast convergence everywhere
I don't have a citation so I didn't modify the article, but the issue of slow convergence near the poles can be solved easily. I'm putting this here for future reference or if it is useful to someone.

Modifying the Newton-Raphson scheme to use a different $$\theta_0$$ allows fast convergence for every $$\varphi\in[-\pi/2,\pi/2]$$:
 * $$\begin{align} \theta_0 &= \left(\frac{\pi}{2} - \sqrt[3]{\frac{3\pi}{8} \left(\frac{\pi}{2} - |\varphi|\right)^2}\right) \sgn \varphi, \\ \theta_{n+1} &= \theta_n - \frac{2 \theta_n + \sin 2\theta_n - \pi \sin \varphi}{2 + 2 \cos 2\theta_n}.\end{align}$$

For infinite-precision arithmetic, the absolute error is just under $$2\cdot10^{-12}$$ after 3 iterations and $$2\cdot10^{-24}$$ after 4 iterations.

For double-precision arithmetic, Newton-Raphson iterations will decrease precision when $$|\varphi| > 1.570762$$, so you should use $$\theta_0$$ in that case, and $$\theta_3$$ otherwise. The resulting error is under $$2\cdot10^{-10}$$. --Mydartvilla (talk) 16:52, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Accurate inverse transform
The inverse transform in double-precision arithmetic should also use the formula

$$\varphi = \begin{cases}\arcsin \frac{2 \theta + \sin 2\theta}{\pi} & \text{when }|\theta| < \pi/2 - 10^{-3} \\ \left(\frac{\pi}{2} - \sqrt{\frac{8}{3\pi} \left(\frac{\pi}{2} - |\theta|\right)^3}\right) \sgn \theta & \text{otherwise} \end{cases}$$

Combined with the Newton-Raphson modification, the error when converting back and forth is under $$3\cdot10^{-10}$$ in double precision, instead of more than $$6\cdot10^{-6}$$ when only Newton-Raphson is modified. --Mydartvilla (talk) 17:53, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Mollweide projection


text:
Ohagamiut, Alaska

Ohagamiut is an abandoned village along the Kuskokwim River in the Bethel Census Area of the southwestern part of the U.S. state of Alaska, located between Crow Village and Kalskag. It was abandoned in the 1940s as residents relocated to Kalskag, Aniak, Bethel and other towns. The village site is located just 3 miles east of Upper Kalskag.

Ohagamiut is sometimes confused with another Yup'ik village on the Yukon River called Ohogamiut, which is presently an Alaska Native Village Statistical Area (ANVSA).

History
Ohagamiut has also been called Okhogamute. The first reference to the village comes from Russian explorers who traveled down the Kuskokwim River in 1818. The first Roman Catholic mission in western Alaska was established at Ohagamiut in 1892. The first census of Alaska completed in 1884 by Ivan Petrof showed Okhogamute having a population of 130.

Demographics
Ohagamiut first reported on the 1880 U.S. Census as the unincorporated Yup'ik village of "Okhogamute", with 130 residents (127 Inuit and 3 Creole (Mixed Russian and Native)). It returned in 1890 as "Oh-hagamiut", with 36 residents (all Native). It last appeared on the 1920 census as "Ohagamute", with 92 residents. Although it never appeared on the census again, it would later appear on maps as "Oknagamut."

title: Ohagamiut, Alaska


text:
Talk:Birmingham City F.C.

Highest Transfer fee paid
Is the highest transfer fee paid not Christian Benitez as he moved for a INITIAL £6m? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.104.51.181 (talk) 08:39, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

 * will be, if he ever actually gets a visa to enter the country, gets a work permit, takes a medical, and signs a contract. Which he hasn't yet, but I'm sure when he does, the club will tell us. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 08:44, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * and as we speak, he has a visa. Getting there... cheers, Struway2 (talk) 10:19, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

captain
damien johnson is the captain however he is unavailable for two months meaning carsley is the stand in. therefore carsley is the club captain. jeez! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.104.51.181 (talk) 20:30, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * As Alex McLeish says on the club site here,  "Damien Johnson is our club captain but because of his injury Carso will wear the armband when the new campaign gets underway".  Carsley is the captain on the field, but Johnson remains the club captain, which is a different thing.  If you look at the article Captain (football), it explains the difference between club and team captains. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 20:40, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

A joke!
Since the 'Football Drive' added their information the article has looked absoloutely terrible since. There is a lot of tedious uninteresting information that has been included namley in the section titled 'Blues' in Europe'. Also It has no kind of persepctive from a Birmingham City fans point of view which I think is rather dissapointing.

 * The blues in Europe bit has been there for ages. The page hardly changed since before the football drive.

-- '''This page keeps on being vandalised by Birmingham city fans, trying to make the team sound more impressive. Can someone lock it please? I have just deleted "BCFC BEST IN THE WORLD" from the opening paragraph''' A lot of this page is waffle. It goes on and on about their performance in the top division, and adds tiny details, such as the apparent Atari ST cup. Could someone who specialises in Football pages please sort this page out. Thom32

--

On the right it lists their position this season, wheras on other teams pages it says their position at the end of last season. I'm going to change it

--

Is there any agreement on what constitutes a football 'honour'? I always thought that you had to win for it to be an honour, but this entry lists being a finalist as an honour.

--Smallbone10 23:57, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

-- Could this page be split up more, because it has a lot of information that crams the page up, while Arsenal F.C. and Manchester United have it on separate pages, like the "History" section and the "Past Players" section?--GingerM 18:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC) -- Listing the club as relegated from the Premiership in mid-April seemed a bit cheeky - reverted to previous edit --85.210.185.108 23:26, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

--

Surely the demise of the 'Blue Nose' mascot to be replaced by some non-descript, generic model deserves a mention! Nicander 18:27, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

-- Someone should remove the Derby reference near the endPliny 21:14, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

--

Sorry what demise of the 'Bluenose' mascot? The Blue's mascot has always been a dog there has never been such a demise that you mention. - Aff

For at least one season a few years ago Birmingham featured a mascot which was dubbed the 'Bluenose' and was designed to resemble a giant blue nose. One of the most memorable mascots certainly. Nicander 20:00, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm a Birmingham City fan, and I've never seen this mascot. The Mayor 19:32, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Precisley I imagine this guy is a WUM. 83.104.51.181 12:00, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

There was a blue nose, he just resembled (from what I can remember) a giant furry blue ball. Fragmaroom

HELP ME
Having just seen Blues vs. Norwich (2006), I have witnessed the worst Blues performance of my life. I went to the 0-7 vs. Liverpool, but this was worst, at least then one team played well! I thought we got rid of the pre-madonna's in the team, but after this performance, I am wondering where the passion has gone! As a typcal Blues fan, I don't ask for much, just players putting in a bit of effort. I need consolation, as I am beginning to lose what Blues are supposed to be doing in this division. Please give me the other side of the coin, because I seem to have lost it. Millm0w 07:55, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

'Prima donna'. Nicander 14:48, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

PRIMA DONNA? you cheeky b*****d. Millm0w 14:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, he was correcting your 'pre-madonna'... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.231.52 (talk) 01:00, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

YouTube links
This article is one of thousands on Wikipedia that have a link to YouTube in it. Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed. I'm putting this message here, on this talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy. In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material that violates someones copyright. If you are not sure if the link on this article should be removed or you would like to help spread this message contact us on this page. Thanks, ---J.S (t|c) 05:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Season-by-season positions
Sorry to remove these after a user tabled them, which must have taken some time. But they're fairly trivial and have no real place in the article. HornetMike 19:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

 * Someone has put them back up. I'm going to take them down.

Crest and Blues in Europe sections
I've just reinstated these. Crest was vandalised but not restored when the vandalism was removed. Blues in Europe looks like it went by accident. Struway 14:28, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Most capped player?
in Honours section. Someone changed it to Forssell, with 40 caps - him it can't be, because he won a good half of them before joining Blues. Presumably it's supposed to show the number of caps won by the player while he's at the club - I was going to just change it back to what it said before, i.e Malcolm Page with 28, but it isn't any more.

For instance, this page shows Damien Johnson had 14 caps when he came to Blues, and this one says he has 46 now, so that's 32 won while at Blues. But there may be others - does anyone know how many Lazaridis won while at Blues? or any other suggestions (ideally with sources)? Struway (talk) 23:22, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * According to this site, which has team lists for all recent Australia internationals, and distinguishes between 'A' and 'B' games, Lazaridis won 33 caps while at Blues, so I'm going to add that. Any verifiable advance on 33 gratefully received! Struway (talk) 15:52, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Aston Villa -- Unique???
I know that Aston Villa can make many claims about being 'special' but playing in two cities is not one of them. Aston has never been a city.

Also why ois there a reference towards the bottom of this. I cvan't see the relevance of Aston Manor or anything to do with Aston. I'm deleting it!

Fair use rationale for Image:Bcfclogo.png
Image:Bcfclogo.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 02:38, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

St Andrews capacity
Well spotted the person who noticed the mistake! Whoever wrote this section in the first place (and the St Andrews (stadium) article) took their info pretty well straight from the 2000 official Encyclopedia of Birmingham City, which does say 43,204. Presumably(?) a typo for 53,204, as the official attendance for the Cup QF in 1972 was 52,470. I'll change the St Andrews article as well, which says the same. Struway2 | Talk 10:38, 2 August 2007 (UTC) I wasat that game and the claimed capacity then was 53,000 (I was alsthere when they played Cardiff City with 49,056 in the ground that year.--217.38.121.254 12:42, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

1905 surely there is an innaccuracy here as Aston Villa wer alreadyin the football league as founder members so Small Heath were not the only league team in Birmingham --217.38.121.254 12:42, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi, if you click on the note by that sentence (note number 3, at the moment) it explains that. Obviously Aston Villa are an older club, but the point is that they were based in the borough of Aston Manor, which wasn't part of the City of Birmingham at the time. Hope that helps, cheers, Struway2 | Talk 13:48, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Some suggestions which will no doubt turn up at PR
For the benefit of, I've reviewed the article to pick up some points that will inevitably crop up at a peer review which precedes a FAC. Here they are:
 * History section titles need work, see other club FA's.
 * removed

 * "Inspired by..." - POV.
 * reworded (Womack captaincy one), though I've left in (and referenced) the "inspirational Christophe Dugarry"

 * Not sure semifinal is a single word, thought it ought to be hyphenated (as it is in the reference).
 * Chambers would disagree with you

 * "...FA Cup semifinal and win promotion..." - no real need to italicise.
 * reworded

 * Citations look best in numerical order (so [42][1] would be preferable as [1][42]).
 * done all I've spotted

 * Shower curtain kit sounds interesting, any chance of creating it instead of, say, the current third choice kit?
 * don't know how to. I'd photograph one but you don't see many about (can't imagine why).

 * Penultimate para of Colours etc has no citation.
 * done

 * Stadium section ought to be Stadiums, starts awkwardly with bullet list of grounds, and has only a single subsection, that of St Andrews. Needs expansion.
 * rewritten

 * Also, the section on St Andrews needs work. No citations to speak of and sentences like "St Andrews was built on an old gypsy camp. The gypsies are reputed to have put a curse on the ground when they were evicted. Fans still blame this when the club has a string of bad results." really need citation, quotation, reliable sources etc.
 * rewritten

 * I know the Notable Managers section is an overview but it could do with some citation.
 * will have soon has now

 * I would be tempted to incorporate some discussion over the new stadium in the Stadium(s) section rather than as a See also bullet...
 * done

 * Use en-dash for page ranges in references.
 * done all I've spotted

Hope that helps. The Rambling Man 17:16, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

GA review comments
Well, here they are, in no particular order of significance...!
 * Some citations should be moved so they meet WP:CITE, so immediately after punctuation if at all possible (e.g. [61], [73], [76] and a later use of [11])
 * WP:CITE says Some words, phrases or facts must be referenced mid-sentence, while others are referenced at the end. Frequently, a reference tag will coincide with punctuation... Presumably that means sometimes a reference tag won't coincide with punctuation, if the word/phrase/fact being referenced hasn't got any?
 * I've moved/shuffled/reworded the [61]s, the [76] (now 77), the [78] (now 79) and the [11].
 * As to [73] (now 74), the sentence goes funded the purchase of players Brian Roberts in 1984[74] and Paul Peschisolido in 1992.[27]. I wouldn't have a problem to moving [74] to the end, but as it's clearly desirable for them to stay in logical order (to reflect the order in which the items referenced occur within the sentence, Roberts' [74] before Pesch's [27]) they'd be out of numerical order, which seems to bother some people; what would you advise?

 * Aha, perhaps I need to revise my knowledge of WP:CITE! No, you're right, if that's the current wording then your article is absolutely fine.  The Rambling Man (talk) 17:31, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Petty perhaps but I don't like the short opening paragraph of the history section and the placement of the image.
 * rearranged

 * "...make up for the lack of goals, Bradford excepted, the other end.[11] " - at the other end?
 * don't know where the at went, it was there in the draft version

 * "Harry Storer was appointed manager in 1945. In his first ..." flow together and where the semi-colon appears, make it a full-stop... would improve the flow in my opinion.
 * reworded

 * 16 paragraphs in the History section, I'd prefer to see half as many with better flow between them.
 * rearranged to some extent. Before this goes for FA (if it ever does) I intend to have another go at structuring/cutting down the History section, but can't face it at the moment.

 * "...he made them play..." I know what you mean, but some may not.
 * reworded

 * "...saw Birmingham make their highest ..." achieve rather than make?
 * done

 * "game best remembered for City's goalkeeper Bert Trautmann playing the last 20 minutes with a broken bone in his neck." citation required, especially for "best remembered" - that's WP:OR, perhaps "notable for"?
 * reworded, added citation at end of paragraph which covers whole paragraph

 * "...raised their game ..." not sure about this. Again, could be perceived as WP:OR.
 * added to the quote from the source book in the footnote. It's a problem with book sources, where you can't reasonably go into huge amounts of detail in the body of the article, but if you don't it can look like OR or POV

 * "...luring Stan Cullis out of retirement to manage the club." needs citation.
 * covered by citation at end of next sentence, need it be repeated?

 * "Saunders' team could not score goals ..." I bet they could, they just weren't particularly accomplished at doing so? Slight rephrase for those who don't know what you mean!
 * reworded, though could not isn't much of an exaggeration :-(

 * "The club was in turmoil on and off the field." too journalistic for my taste.
 * changed to lacked stability

 * "Then the ..." when exactly?
 * done

 * "...and allowed Cooper money for signings." citation required.
 * covered by citation at end of next sentence, need it be repeated?

 * "...unconvincing mid-table finish." WP:OR again.
 * removed unconvincing for want of decent citation. I find it very difficult to discuss the period from around Christmas 2004 to October 2006 without lapsing into OR/POV.

 * "a teenage boy died, crushed when a wall collapsed; this was on the same day as the Bradford fire, and the events at St Andrew's were included in the remit of Mr Justice Popplewell's report into the safety of sports grounds.[25]" not sure but that reads almost identically to the same part in the history section.
 * so it did

 * "with fans taking home a significant proportion as souvenirs" needs citation.
 * rearranged

 * Honours should have a citation.
 * done. A list of Birmingham Senior Cup winners which used to be on the Birmingham County FA website seems to have disappeared, so I've had to resort to the fansite (though the late much-lamented bcfc-archive from which they source their information was reliable). Did you know, the only featured English football club articles which cite their honours section are Aston Villa, Leek Town, Margate and Norwich City?

 * Ipswich does too, just not as obviously! (I should do better!) The Rambling Man (talk) 17:34, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't need a Current staff secion really.
 * possibly not, but is it a problem? Featured articles Aston Villa F.C., Gillingham F.C. and Manchester City F.C. do have such a section.
 * P.S. Just to clarify that all I'm implying when mentioning what other featured articles have/have not done, is that I looked at other featured articles when deciding what sections to include and where/how much citation was needed. I'm aware of WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS, and don't have a problem with changing stuff where it needs changing. Struway2 (talk) 16:44, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Other than that it's very very good and is a great base for heading to FA with some more work. I'll put the GA on hold for the moment so you can attend to the comments - let me know when you're after a re-review. Cheers! The Rambling Man (talk) 10:46, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Cool. Promoting now.  Well done, good work, and please, please consider FA as soon as you feel like it!  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:14, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Featured Articles
Just seen that the Villa's page is a featured article. Any chance someone could help get the Blues page featured article status. I have never gone through the process so it would be better for someone else to do this for me. --Gking92 (talk) 21:19, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Club, squad or team captain?
I see Carsley is listed as Blues' captain. As Carsley is now essentially a squad player, shouldn't Stephen Carr be listed as our captain? Carr is definitely the 'team' captain and Carsley, arguably, is the 'club' captain but instead of making things complicated why don't we list Carr as the captain? It's unlikely he'll be replaced even if Carsley becomes a regular starter. King of Mercia (talk) 20:16, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

 * I'd agree it's a bit misleading now that Carsley plays so rarely. But last time they both started, away at Arsenal, bcfc.com listed Carsley as captain and referred to "captain Lee Carsley" in the prose, so if that's what they say, we can't really decide something different. Damien Johnson's still club captain, and presumably will remain so until he leaves the club. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 21:35, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Owner
The owner is Birmingham International Holdings, as Carson Yeung did not had a controlling interests (>50%) to the holding company. Mr. Liu Xingcheng own 14% share, Ms. Zhou Xin owned 9.88% and Carson Yeung only owned 18.54%. As we don't know Zhou and Liu's relation, Yeung nominally the largest shareholder but there is rumour that there is a de facto major share holder behind. Matthew_hk  t  c  05:09, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed, and thanks for updating. The ownership details had never been changed since the club was bought by Grandtop when it was under Yeung's control. Another time, though, when you make changes, please remember to add a reference for them. As to the rumoured "major shareholder", in the current circumstances I wish that she or he would a) pass the fit and proper person test and b) show us the money..... cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:03, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Squad table format
A discussion is being held here on the possibility of rolling out a new squad template. The new template, named football squad player2, differs from the standard squad layout in several ways:
 * It features a sort function
 * Comes in a single column format that can be understood by screen readers.
 * Single column format ensures that low resolution browsers, including mobile devices, do not get part or all of the second column cut off.
 * Single column format ensures less clutter, particularly at lower resolutions, for wide sections such as the Arsenal loan section.
 * It gives nationality its own column; at present flags are featured in a blank, untitled column
 * It complies with Wikipedia's guidance on flag usage.
 * It leaves enough space to add images of current players, an example of which can be seen at Watford F.C.

It is proposed that the new template be added to some of Wikipedia's most high-profile club articles, which might include. To give your thoughts, please read and contribute to the discussion at WikiProject Football.

Regards, Edinburgh   Wanderer  19:37, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

 * I know Birmingham is 10 years behind the rest of the world but please use the standard squad table template that practically every other football team article uses. 194.217.118.50 (talk) 11:00, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Jeff Lynne is a supporter, wrote song 'Birmingham Blues'
Jeff Lynne, the musical artist and founder of ELO, is a Blues supporter. He wrote the song 'Birmingham Blues' on the album 'Out of the Blue.' Jrgilb (talk) 06:28, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

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Nickname
The club's nickname in the infobox and the lead section has been "Blues" for many years. It was the sort of thing that in those days nobody bothered sourcing because it was a well-known fact. In the last few days, it's been changed several times to "The Blues". I added a couple of sources, both of which list nicknames as part of the basic information in each club's entry – Sky Sports Football Yearbook, and the UEFA presskit for one of the Europa League matches, data for which is supplied by the club's press officer – but the changes continued. So here are some more sources for plain Blues, and I'll invite the other editor to discuss the matter here.

Additional sources:

 * Books: Tony Matthews' Birmingham City: A Complete Record and Encyclopedia of Birmingham City Football Club 1875–2000 consistently use Blues. So does Hyder Jawad's Keep Right On: The Official Centenary of St Andrew's.

 * The BCFC website: e.g. https://www.bcfc.com/news/articles/2018/st-andrew-s-and-wast-hills-naming-rights/ has multiple uses of Blues and not "the Blues": in the sentence "Blues are owned by Birmingham City PLC, which is in turn owned by Birmingham Sports Holdings Ltd", if "the Blues" were correct, it would certainly be used. And https://www.bcfc.com/club-and-fans/club/history/carling-cup-winners-2011/ uses just Blues, not "the Blues".

 * The match programme was called "Blues" News as long ago as the 1920s: http://www.evertoncollection.org.uk/object?id=796%20EFC%2f7%2f39%2f1&p=1#title

 * Google search of bbc.co.uk https://www.google.com/search?q=site:bbc.co.uk+"birmingham+city"+blues returns far more use of plain Blues than "the Blues", many of which are adjectival uses e.g. "the Blues board". Ignoring headlines, where the plain Blues usage might be a sub-editorial abbreviation, Blues is the normal usage within sentences, e.g. "Former Birmingham City captain Paul Robinson is eyeing a coaching role with Blues following his retirement as a player, at the age of 39. Robinson was without a club and even contemplating quitting the game then when he first joined Blues on a one-month trial deal in September 2012.", "Monk will take charge of Blues for the first time", etc etc

 * Local paper: e.g. https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/xuandong-ren-birmingham-city-transfer-14971273 multiple and consistent use of Blues. If you have access to newspaper archives online, you'll get similar results for the Birmingham papers certainly as far back as the 1950s.

I'm not claiming "the Blues" is never used: that'd be daft. It is used, even on the club site on occasion, but that doesn't make it the "correct" nickname. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 13:53, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

 * The Club's nickname is "The Blues". The biggest proof of this is written in massive letters on the Tilton Road Stand, spelling out "THE BLUES".
 * Check this out, the Tilton Road Stand: https://www.google.com/search?q=tilton+road+stand&client=firefox-b-ab&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwifoK657cvcAhViIcAKHTeMBZAQ_AUICygC&biw=1626&bih=983 People get it wrong and the wrong nickname is misused by several places. The 100% correct nickname is "The Blues"
 * the nickname is interchangeable. You'd never hear somone say "He is the worst The Blues player, ever", but you would hear "Are you going down The Blues"
 * Thanks for replying. I saw your message on your talk page and was about to reply there, but best keep it together here. I could say the same as you did on your talk: I was born and raised in the city, and sit in the Tilton every home match. And despite what the lifelong Cardiff/West Ham fans who then owned the club had written in coloured seats, I know that they're Blues and not The Blues. Which is why we have to go with what the reliable sources say rather than what "we" know to be true...
 * Where the names could be interchangeable grammatically, like in the sentences about Robinson's "coaching role with Blues" and "first joined Blues", people nearly always use Blues, not the Blues. I'm aware that the Blues is used, and you're right about people saying "going down the Blues". So I wouldn't object to that being listed as an alternative, but not instead of plain Blues, which is backed up by very many reliable sources, including what the club told UEFA its nickname was, to go on the Europa League press kits: http://www.uefa.com/printoutfiles/competitions/uefacup/2012/e/e_2007315_pk.pdf and scroll down to page 5. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 13:23, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

OK, let's have 2 nicknames listed, The Blues and Blues. (Not sure if you're aware but on the Chelsea page, they also have listed "Blues" and "The Blues"

Is it "Come on Blues", or "Come on The Blues"??!
 * Let's not have two nicknames, unless you want to go through and add a secondary nickname to each club that has a one word moniker. Let's just go with adding a "The" and being done with it? - J man708 (talk) 17:09, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Why would we "just go with" the version without reliable published sources to support it?
 * I still reckon the Blues is restricted to (a) occasions when it works better in spoken English, particularly in colloquial use, or in the rhythm of a song: you have to say "Up the Blues!" or "go down the Blues", but "Come on Blues" works so that's what people shout; or (b) use by people/writers/websites who assume that all nicknames have to be preceded by the: that would include the seats in the Tilton stand which were installed by new owners with no knowledge of the club.
 * Today's offerings on the BCFC website and well-known Brummie and Blues fan Tom Ross on the Birmingham Mail website both use Blues, not the Blues.
 * Personally, I think it'd work better for the article if we left it as just Blues in the infobox/lead, and then add a couple of sentences about nicknames in the supporters section, where it should be covered already but isn't even mentioned. But until this discussion reaches a conclusion, people shouldn't keep changing the page. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 08:30, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Chill! I only suggested going with one or the other because showing two names for the exact same thing because of syntax is stupidly redundant. Couldn't care less which is chosen, as long as it's one or the other. - J man708 (talk) 17:01, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 September 2020
Add "Sport Scientist Intern: Louis Titchener" to the club staff section BirminghamCityFan123 (talk) 16:27, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Not done. First because you didn't supply a source for your addition; second because such sections are supposed to include senior or notable staff, not all staff. This article currently draws the line at those mentioned on the first-team page HERE, which still seems quite a lot... cheers, Struway2 (talk) 16:37, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 April 2024
Change ‘St Andrews’ to ‘St Andrews @ Knighthead Park’ 92.236.226.224 (talk) 22:43, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Not done, if you meant change the infobox: conventionally, we don't use sponsored stadium names unless the stadium has never had an unsponsored name. But I have added it to a suitable place in the lead section. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 10:35, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Birmingham City F.C.


text: Template:PD-USGov-FBI

title: Template:PD-USGov-FBI


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Short View of the Immorality and Profaneness of the English Stage

In March 1698, Jeremy Collier published his anti-theatre pamphlet, A Short View of the Immorality and Profaneness of the English Stage; in the pamphlet, Collier attacks a number of playwrights: William Wycherley, John Dryden, William Congreve, John Vanbrugh, and Thomas D'Urfey. Collier attacks rather recent, rather popular comedies from the London stage; he accuses the playwrights of profanity, blasphemy, indecency, and undermining public morality through the sympathetic depiction of vice.

Description
Collier begins his pamphlet with this conclusion: "[N]othing has gone farther in Debauching the Age than the Stage Poets, and Play-House" (Collier A2). He goes on, in great detail—despite the title—to give his evidence. For Collier, the immorality of the title stems from Restoration comedy's lack of poetic justice. With his exhaustively thorough readings—in a sense, pre-close reading close readings—he condemns the characters of Restoration comedies as impious and wicked and he condemned their creators (the playwrights) for failing to punish the playwrights' wicked "favorites". As the title suggests, Collier also charges the playwrights with profaneness, supporting his allegations with a number quotations from the plays (i.e. The Provoked Wife, The Relapse, et cetera). However, most of these charges are rather mild (at least according to the standards of most modern readers). Collier is, of course, unable to give examples of blatant blasphemy, for at the time, they were neither allowed on stage nor in print. However, Collier's strategy was innovative for his time (not to mention effective). Before A Short View of the Immorality and Profaneness of the English Stage, most anti-theatre pamphlets were merely nondescript diatribes (e.g. William Prynne's Histriomastix (1633)), but with his innovative techniques, Collier comprehensively indicted the entire Restoration stage (see also Antitheatricality).

Reaction
Due to its publication, a pamphlet war ensued (for and against Collier's case), lasting sporadically until about 1726. In 1698, John Dennis wrote a pamphlet entitled: The Usefulness of the Stage. John Vanbrugh wrote a jestful retort, A Short Vindication of The Relapse and The Provok'd Wife From Immorality and Prophaneness (1698). In his pamphlet, Vanbrugh accuses Collier of being more upset by the unflattering depictions of clergymen than actual blasphemy. William Congreve, on the other hand, took the attacks on his plays quite seriously and refuted Collier's allegations in his Amendments of Mr. Collier's False and Imperfect Citations (1698). Other playwrights (like Thomas D'Urfey) preferred to give their reply on the stage. D'Urfey's play Campaigners (1698) comments on Collier's strictures. Collier would later fire back with his Defence of the Short View in 1699 and Edward Filmer would go on to defend Restoration theatre in 1707 with A Defence of Plays.

Analysis
By the end of the 17th century, the Restoration comic style had already collapsed: the satiric presentation of English life gave way to the sentimental portrait (beginning in 1696 with Colley Cibber's Love's Last Shift) (Bernbaum 72). A Short View of the Immorality and Profaneness of the English Stage only signaled the swelling of public opposition to the real or imposed indecency of the plays staged over the last three decades. Collier writes in the introduction: "The business of plays is to recommend Vertue, and discountenance Vice" (Collier 1). However, the Restoration playwright rarely saw their function within Collier's strictures; in Congreve's dedication to The Double-Dealer (1693), he writes, "It is the business of a comic poet to paint the vices and follies of humankind" (Congreve 174). Congreve implies that the purpose of the comic playwright was to portray the vices and follies of society in order to correct them. Collier, instead, preferred his restrictions imposed on comedy (e.g. his rigid Neoclassical notions of dramatic decorum) and in doing so he followed the a logic similar to what is found in the work of other critics who had imposed the law of poetic justice on tragedy (e.g. Thomas Rymer and his A Short View of Tragedy (1693)).

Legacy
A Short View of the Immorality and Profaneness of the English Stage is often credited with turning the tide against the sexually explicit nature of Restoration comedy, but the tide had already begun turning; Collier's pamphlet was only "swimming" with the "tide" of public opinion. The truth was that Restoration comedy was over; it had been worn down by external factors, such as the Glorious Revolution and William III of England and Mary II of England's bête-noire for theatre. Maybe the most obvious sign of Restoration theatre's death came with the nolle prosequi (immunity from prosecution for earlier offenses) granted to Collier by William III (for A Short View of the Immorality and Profaneness of the English Stage).


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