text:
Talk:Carolina Panthers

John Fox
Need to disambiguate John Fox. There's an article about a British statistician called John Fox!

 * I added the link to Coach John Fox Opuspup722 18:47, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

 * I love you! 24.162.236.171 05:41, 28 July 2006 (UTC)Malik1

Mathematical (score in game) impossibility...
Concerning Panthers Super Bowl: It's impossible for both teams to score 38 points in the last five minutes of half and to also end the half 14-10.
 * Fixed the problem. Anthony 16:01, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

Improvement drive
National Football League is currently a candidate on WP:IDRIVE. Vote for it if you are interested in contributing.--Fenice 20:04, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

PSL sales
Not all PSLs sold on day one, just the club seats and luxury suites.

06 Draft
Should the recent 2006 draft picks be added to this page in some way? Opuspup722 05:26, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Logo
I do recall that the logo is supposed to be shaped (tilted counterclockwise a little bit) like the outline of North/South Carolina together. Here's at least one reference other than Wiki that says this:. I'll go look through one of Fowler's books on the Panthers to see if there's a reference there. SpikeJones 14:53, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

That link must have changed its content over the last six years, or I'm missing the reference to the logo. So far, this is the best reference I've seen for "explaining" what's up. Seriously, that needs a real ref if it's got any truth to it. Rufwork (talk) 01:23, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm, being from NC, I have always heard that the logo is the outline of the Carolina's, but I never even bothered to see if it was true! From the images on google, it looks like theres a loose correlation between the two, but anything from the Panther franchise? — Preceding unsigned comment added by NCPride321 (talk • contribs) 05:38, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

 * Im also curious. does anybody have any references on the matter?8panther2pride8 (talk) 16:14, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

 * Quick Question, how great of a source does it have to be. I see numerous sites stating its the outline, but none look too official. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 8panther2pride8 (talk • contribs) 00:34, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Founding date
I channged the year when the Panthers were founded to 1993; although the team did not begin play until 1995, the franchise was awarded on October 26, 1993 so the team was technically founded in 1993. I also moved the page to the "1993 establishments" category.

commentary on years in headings
I added the years into the headings as I felt it helped categorize each of those sections easier for a non-fan or casual WK reader to understand. The sections are already broken out into a year-by-year recap, but the casual observer wouldn't recognize that unless they bothered to read the associated section and noticed that it was talking about a specific year. Further, by having a title of "Cardiac Cats are Super Bowl Bound" implies that they are currently SB bound (present tense) OR were SB bound in every season, when in fact that section deals with just one specific previous season. Same thing with "Injury bug" -- is this a bug that the Panthers have had throughout their existence, or was it an issue that existed for just one season? Adding the years helps clarify. SpikeJones 13:49, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Fair point, but the paragraphs underneath each heading make it clear they only discuss one season (with the exception of the "Dark Times" header, which states the seasons it refers to). There aren't enough seasons in the Panthers history that it requires each year to be placed in the heading, and as I said, it's clear from the paragraph which season is under discussion.  Besides, the NFL WikiProject is supposedly going around to all the team pages and working on them so they fit a standard format, so we'll see how that pans out.  There's a lot of work to be done on this page, so the headings likely won't stay this way forever, but at least for now, it's overboard to post every single year.  Don't mean to piss on your efforts, so don't take this as someone just hating on you.  Anthony Hit me up... 18:22, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

'06 Season Section
This section was written by a Panthers' fan (not myself) and is GROSSLY opinionated. It should be re-written, pronto. I'd do it myself, if I had some assistance from a "football expert". Thanks! Keekee 05:50, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Certainly lacks NPOV and is not encylopedic. I suggest gonging the whole section as unnecessary.SpikeJones 22:16, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Sorry about the 2006 section of the page. It was my first article I wrote, so that might be the reason. And, yes I am a Panthers' fan, but I did go through my article and take out a few opinions that I put. Sorry again. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by NCBoi24 (talk • contribs) 22:18, 21 December 2006 (UTC).

 * I still say the entire "2006 season" section that was added is unencyclopedic; is there a need for a slightly biased play-by-play account of each game in this specific article? SpikeJones 15:48, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Steriods Scandal
2006 Season some information was revealed that around 2002 or 2003 (i cant recall exactly) members of the panthers were using banned substances or something of that nature. it was one of the bigger confirmed instances of such use. if anyone knows any exact info this is probably relevant even though as a fan i hate to see it on there almost as much as i hate remembering that 1-15 season. jieagles

Eras
I changed the titles of the historic periods from tacky POV to coaching eras. None of the content was changed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.77.222.38 (talk) 19:34, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

Uniforms
I noticed that although the wiki desecribes the uniforms, their are no pictures or photos of the actual jersheys. Perhaps someone should find a picture for it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.67.142.193 (talk) 15:43, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:CarolinaPanthersAlt 2.gif
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BetacommandBot 19:50, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:CarolinaPanthersAlt helmet.png
Image:CarolinaPanthersAlt helmet.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 19:52, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:CarolinaPanthersAlt.png
Image:CarolinaPanthersAlt.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 19:56, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Addition of CarolinaPanthersBlog.com in external links.
CarolinaPanthersBlog.org ranks #2 for carolina panthers blog in Google, and it's focus is to provide the latest news on the Carolina Panthers with it's readers. We also do analysis of games and position breakdowns. We realize there is no SEO benefit in this, yet we feel that our website deserves to be on the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Themanbeast9 (talk • contribs) 22:43, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * WP:SPAM. Wikipedia is not a link repository, and is not intended for advertising or promotion, especially for websites of which you are personally affiliated.  Pats 1  T / C  00:14, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Rivalries
I think the article overplays the Dallas/Carolina rivalry (albeit, there is a history of high-profile postseason games between the two), and downplays the Tampa Bay/Carolina rivalry. Carolina and Tampa Bay have had some extremely physical, close games through the years and games which are notable in their own right, such as Carolina blocking three kick attempts including what would have been a game-winning PAT by Martin Grammatica). Rpine75 (talk) 04:02, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

1995 NFL Draft
Does anyone know why the Jags got the first pick in the 1995 NFL Expansion Draft as well as getting to pick ahead of the Carolina Panthers in the 1995 NFL Draft? Doesn't seem very fair.--2008Olympian chitchatseemywork 04:26, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

 * I realize now that they didn't, the panthers traded their overall number one to the Bengals.--2008Olympian chitchatseemywork 08:29, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

 * The Panthers were "created" first and Jerry Richardson was given the choice of the first pick in the NFL draft or expansion draft he took the first pick in the draft- when the Jags were created they were given the first pick in the expansion draft. I cannot recall WHAT book I read it had the story in but If I find it I'll let you know. I think it was Bill Rosinski's book "Tales from the Carolina Panthers" (http://www.powells.com/biblio?isbn=9781596701786)

-But I'm not 100% sure. --David.snipes (talk) 16:12, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

07 Season Section
Whoever wrote that knows nothing about last year. It says that Jake failed to win the game against Atlanta early in the year, when in fact, the panthers won the game. Also, "Unfortunately for the Panthers, Carr suffered the first major injury of his career," is not right. Anyone one who has watched any game with Carr starting for Carolina would know that fans were glad when he was out of the game. Plus, the whole section is written in such a way that it is nearly impossible to follow. Needs to be re-written.66.194.118.10 (talk) 11:59, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Hall of Honor
It's called the Hall of Honor on the Carolina web page, not the ring of honor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.177.224.61 (talk) 20:11, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

2010 season
Someone tampered with the 2010 season section, claiming the Panthers had left the NFL to play in NCAA Division I football. I've removed this, but the section could use expanding by someone who has kept up with the team's results this season. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.25.207.19 (talk) 12:35, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Fox fired
State of NC has two legal statuses...laid off and fired...and he wasn't laid off. Ref has been provided. He performed lousy and was "cut" i.e. "fired". ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 00:57, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll repeat what I just posted on your talk page: "Contract not renewed" and "fired" are not the same thing. "Contract not renewed" is technically accurate, but I'm not interested in an edit war. JTRH (talk) 01:02, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Me neither, that's why we open discussion here. Leaving the ref for the time being allows others to see it before commenting. "Contract not renewed" is a euphemism or nice way of saying your fired. Let's face it, he was fired for the poor performance. I understand what you're trying to say but respectfully disagree (with source). No need for edit warring because others can join in the discussion. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—►  ((⊕)) 01:09, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Legally, it's different. If he got "fired" as Capers and Seifert did, in the middle of his contract, the team would owe him money. Not re-hiring him (which is the effect of not renewing the contract upon its expiration) doesn't obligate them to pay him anything. But, yeah, the effect is the same: he's no longer the coach, because the team had a horrible year. JTRH (talk) 01:14, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * PS: I apologize for wiping out the reference in my last revert. JTRH (talk) 01:20, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * No problem. :) You bring up a good point (perspective). I was thinking along the legal lines of Termination by mutual agreement. Had he been doing well, they would likely have kept him. Conversely, because he wasn't doing well (poor job performance) the Panthers refused to renew. It was one-sided and wasn't up to Fox. That said, I'm open-minded about it. If you're willing, let's see if others would like to chime in on it over a day or two for more input. No rush. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—►  ((⊕)) 02:02, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't feel that strongly about it, but I'm interested in others' perspectives. And thanks for your understanding and cooperation. :) JTRH (talk) 14:04, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—►  ((⊕)) 14:10, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I would say he wasn't fired for performance at all; he was 'fired' because he didn't want to or try to fit in with the youth movement. And saying he was 'fired' is sketchy, since his contract was simply not renewed.  Toa   Nidhiki  05  02:42, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Yeah I have to agree Fox was not fired. There is a difference regardless if it doesn't change anything —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.213.252.75 (talk) 07:30, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

He was definitely not fired by definition. He did not receive an offer to have his contract extended. That decision was probably made prior to the 2010 season. Evidence supporting that includes, that Fox was allowed to interview with the Buffalo Bills before the 2010 season (if he signed with another team, the Panthers would be off the hook for his 2010 salary) and Richardson said he didn't want to pay two coaching staffs in his press conference when asked about it. Not that all that needs to go into the article. But, Richardson made a big deal about Fox not having back to back winning seasons, perhaps that, and not a "disappointing record of 2-14" should be highlighted as the reason for Fox not being retained. It's semantics, but he was definitely not fired and the way it is written now should be cleaned up. Samwised (talk) 04:39, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * At the time you wrote this, it didn't say that Fox was fired as it had already been changed. I've just cleaned it up a bit as a contract not renewed situation per the consensus here. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—►  ((⊕)) 17:18, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Works for me. Thanks for your efforts on this. JTRH (talk) 17:52, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I was responding to the discussion, it reads better now. Samwised (talk) 17:30, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Changing 'American football' to 'football'
As a note, I have changed 'American football' to 'football'. Upon examining many featured articles on English soccer clubs (Manchester United F.C., Arsenal F.C., Chelsea F.C., Ipwitch Town F.C., Leek Town F.C., Liverpool F.C.), I discovered most, if not all of them, use the term 'football', because 'football' in England unequivocally means Association football, which we Americans call 'soccer'. Due to this, I think it is acceptable for this article to use the term 'football', because 'football' in the US unequivocally means 'American football'.  Toa   Nidhiki05  15:57, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * As I said in the GA review I'm opposed to this. Just because other articles (even FA's) use ambiguous terms doesn't make it a good idea. I think using the term American football in the first sentence of the lead makes the article more accessible - not everyone is going to immediately know that football means American football. Obviously any ambiguity would have been removed from then on, so I'm only arguing for the use of the full name in the opening sentence. -- Shudde  talk 23:53, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll remove for now, but if this is such an issue how have other FAs passed with similar wording? Not everyone is going to know 'football' is 'soccer'.  Toa   Nidhiki05  00:10, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I think that all articles should disambiguate the code of football in the first instance, but we're just focusing on this one for now! Some of the silliest edit wars on Wikipedia have been regarding the use of the term "football". It's crazy. I think the main consideration has got to be weighing up the options - nothing is lost by saying American football in the first use, but something is gained (for those readers, even though probably a minority, that weren't completely clear wwithout having to read further, or click a link, what code you were referring to). On the other hand, saying just football adds nothing, other than implying "that's what we call it here". The 'that's what we call it here' argument is actually quite common - but the readers probably couldn't care less. - Shudde  talk 02:55, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

 * This issue was previously debated three years ago, see Talk:Football/Archive 16. There was no consensus across the spectrum of all the articles on the various football codes, so the different styles remained where English soccer clubs used "football", the NFL articles used "American football" in the lead section, and so on. 2010 was also when the Chicago Bears page was still a featured article, and there was no problem with having the full "American football" in the first sentence. Zzyzx11 (talk) 03:53, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

 * We are an international encyclopedia so we tell the nationality of sports teams. All your English examples say they are an English football club in the opening sentence. Even if there wasn't a naming issue with the sport, it's good to say it's an American football team. When it further helps to clarify the sport in a World where football means association football almost everywhere else, it makes good sense to say it's an American football team in the opening sentence. And if we are going to say American anyway, it would be dumb to hide the sport in a piped link by saying "American football team" instead of "American football team". PrimeHunter (talk) 11:21, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

What, if any, post-FA promotion fixes are needed?
This article was recently promoted to FA status. I have no objections to promotion myself, nor do I believe that Maralia does. However, it seems that Maralia has identified some minor issues that should be addressed at some point. Unfortunately, I can't figure out what they are from reading the FAC review page. Having spent a considerable amount of time reviewing the FAC myself, I would like to make the article the best that I possibly can. Any suggestions as to what could be improved further would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! AmericanLemming (talk) 23:42, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, wiki formatting with strikeout and collapsed sections really doesn't lend itself to those types of discussions! There's just one minor point remaining: the placement of the hide/show link in the collapsible tables is super weird to me—hide/show is always on the right. Additionally, it's probably an accessibility issue to have the collapse link in a column rather than the table heading. I told Toa that I'd look into it, but haven't gotten around to it yet; I'll do it sooner or later if one of you doesn't beat me to it. Thanks. Maralia (talk) 23:55, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Updating all-time record in real time?
Should we update the all-time record every week, or should we wait until the end of the season? AmericanLemming (talk) 01:32, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer to update it after the season when records are officially updated. Doing otherwise is basically OR - we are adding up ourselves.  Toa   Nidhiki05  02:44, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Win-loss tables
An IP address editor recently removed the win-loss tables from the article. As the editor who both requested that such tables be added to the article and who spent many hours creating those tables in my sandbox, I guess I would like to see them come back. However, I do have to admit that, as the IP editor's edit summary stated, the tables do clutter the article somewhat.

As such, I have two questions:

1. Should those tables be in the article at all?
 * My original argument for the tables to be included was that the average reader who is not particularly informed about the Carolina Panthers (that is, someone like me) would be confused by History section, with all of its many seasons. A win-loss table would hopefully enable readers like me to keep all of the seasons straight.

2. If so, where should they go? Even if they belong in the article, putting them back where they were before isn't necessarily the best place for them.

Rather than reverting the IP editor's edit, I thought it would be more constructive to seek the opinion of other editors on the talk page (which will hopefully include a response from the IP editor as well). AmericanLemming (talk) 22:05, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I think the two tables can belong in the article. Yes it adds a bit of clutter, but it also adds some texture to a very long, imageless section. If they aren't re-added, there needs to be images added to the section to make it more interesting. In my opinion they should be put back, but win-loss totals should not be updated until after the season is over.  Toa   Nidhiki05  22:28, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with not updating the win-loss totals until the end of the season. I think we should either wait a day or two before adding the tables back in (thus giving the IP editor a chance to respond here) or add it back immediately and leave an invitation for them to discuss the matter on the talk page in the edit summary. AmericanLemming (talk) 22:48, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Sounds fine either way... I'd prefer to wait a day or two just to see if anyone else besides the IP and us has input as well.  Toa   Nidhiki05  23:00, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Carolina Pansies
The page summary on the right says "Carolina Pansies" and not Panthers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.151.71.23 (talk) 19:30, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Discussion at Files for discussion/2016 November 7
You are invited to join the discussion at. Marchjuly (talk) 00:48, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added tag to http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2008/10/25/279610/fifteen-years-of-the-panthers.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130118124944/http://www.panthers.com/fanzone/drumline/index.html to http://www.panthers.com/fanzone/drumline/index.html
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130915113104/http://www.panthers.com:80/community/panthers-charities.html to http://www.panthers.com/community/panthers-charities.html
 * Added tag to http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2008/09/28/218960/sorensen-falcons-vs-panthers-is.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140111061416/http://www.wwltv.com/sports/black-and-gold/Saints-Panthers-rivalry-deepening-after-New-Orleans-30-27-win-131475403.html to http://www.wwltv.com/sports/black-and-gold/Saints-Panthers-rivalry-deepening-after-New-Orleans-30-27-win-131475403.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130316060930/http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/01/05/900166/owner-looks-back-ahead.html to http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/01/05/900166/owner-looks-back-ahead.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130512224808/http://blogs.suntimes.com/bears/2009/10/change_in_nfl_ownership_rules.html to http://blogs.suntimes.com/bears/2009/10/change_in_nfl_ownership_rules.html

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Semi-protected edit request on 18 November 2016
I think that the Panthers were founded in 1995. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.229.78.220 (talk) 00:43, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

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Roaring Riot Section
All of the information has been kept up to date and checked frequently, but one possible thing missing that could maybe be added would be a section about the panthers grassroots tailgate section, the "Roaring Riot". (Jonesdh123 (talk) 22:01, 5 February 2018 (UTC))

Semi-protected edit request on 14 September 2018
Change Personnel>President>Vacant to Personnel>President>Tom Glick

Tom Glick has been named as the Team President as of August 24, 2018.

https://www.panthers.com/news/tom-glick-named-panthers-team-president 69.132.51.158 (talk) 14:44, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

 * Done, thank you. --Bongwarrior (talk) 17:52, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 November 2018
{Under Seahawks-Panthers Rivalry} "On Sunday, November 25, 2018, the Panthers were defeated by the Seahawks at home by a score of 30-27." 66.108.136.189 (talk) 14:53, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

 * ✅ - Plus some general updating to that section to account for the result. A2soup (talk) 09:15, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Infobox color question
I'm hoping someone can answer my question because I really have no answer to it. Is there a reason why the infobox colors of the team and it's players and coaches was changed from a black background with a blue outline to a blue background with a silver outline? It looks nearly identical to the Detroit Lions infobox colors and doesn't reflect what the predominant colors of the team are, which is black and blue. It seems like it is an unnecessary change and reverting it to what it was would make more sense. I'm not knowledgeable enough to do that, so in addition to asking why it was changed, I'm also asking if someone who is more knowledgeable could change it back (only if it is deemed appropriate to change, if someone explains why it should remain otherwise, then this part of the question is irrelevant.) Thanks in advance. Mannytool (talk) 02:38, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Compromise to the lede
As I have done in my more recent edits, I am willing to make a compromise with the lede to include both the franchise history and the records held by the franchise. Currently, the lede is heavily focused on the former.

My issue with the former is it's going to keep getting longer to the point where the lede gets slapped with a "too long" tag, like the New Orleans Saints article. This isn't an article centered around a human with a normal lifespan. Sports teams can last for centuries. Eventually, the team's history will not be able to be summarized constructively in the lede, overwhelming the reader before they even get into the main article. As the Panthers are a young franchise, I do not object to retaining this for now, but unless they fold in the next few decades, this will become an issue.

If there is reason not to retain the latter in the lede, I would like to understand why. It is notable that the Panthers hold NFL records related to their young age, as well as being the only non-Super Bowl winning franchise with a winning playoff; this is what makes them distinctive and stand out among other NFL franchises. The most distinctive information about a sports team belongs in the lede. Bluerules (talk) 17:55, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * You’re inserting random trivia into a featured article. This lead is not abnormally long (WP:LEDE) but definitely does not have room for additional random trivia. This information might be useful somewhere else (maybe List of Carolina Panthers seasons), but not in the lead. Toa Nidhiki05 18:45, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
 * It is not "random trivia" to identify a franchise as accomplishing feats younger than other franchises. Explain to me how the Panthers' "all-time best [record] for an NFL expansion team's first season" and "the team's five NFC South titles since the division's establishment in 2002 rank second only to the New Orleans Saints" are not random trivia, yet the Panthers being the youngest to clinch their division, reach a conference championship, appear in the Super Bowl, and have multiple Super Bowl appearances are deemed as such. This is information that's already in the lede, but not specifically identified to readers.
 * The Panthers are a franchise that's experienced early successes in their young history, but have not claimed a championship. That's the general summary of the franchise right now and that's what the new information conveys in a direct and concise manner. The very purpose of the lede is to contain summarized information, which is why this is precise lede material; readers learn from the onset what the Panthers have accomplished and what they haven't.
 * The lede is not long now because the Panthers are a young franchise whose entire history can be summarized in a paragraph or two. Eventually, barring an improbable folding of the team, trying to summarize the franchise history in the lede will make it too long. The Saints' lede became too long because the lede was trying to summarize the entire history of a 50+ year old franchise. At some point, the lede will need to be overhauled to prevent a length issue. Bluerules (talk) 04:07, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The lead currently presents an overview of the history section - the major seasons the team has had, and can (and will) be trimmed gradually over future decades as new seasons of higher importance emerge. Trivia about playoff win percentage (a stat very few people know about) doesn't need to be here. Toa Nidhiki05 14:11, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Just because people don't know certain information doesn't mean they don't want to know it. A team's history boils down to their wins and losses because their ultimate purpose (at least to the general public) is to win games. Readers want to know the team's overall performance from the onset. While I don't agree with always putting the win-loss record/winning percentage in the lede, it needs to be in the lede when there's a record associated with it. In the case of the Panthers, they are the only NFL franchise with a winning postseason record to not have a Super Bowl title. That's not anymore random trivia than saying the Panthers were 7–9 in their first season or they're second behind the Saints in division titles. It is a record and records belong in the lede.
 * Furthermore, this does not explain why the Panthers being the youngest NFL franchise to win their division, reach the conference championship game, appear in the Super Bowl, and have multiple Super Bowl appearances. Like I said, this is already in the lede, but not specifically identified to readers. Just like the reference to the 7–9 record being the best for an NFL expansion franchise, this can be mentioned alongside the team history. For example, the second paragraph could say this in its first two sentences instead:
 * "After going 7–9 in their first season, the best inaugural finish for an NFL expansion franchise, the Panthers' second season saw them become the youngest NFL franchise to win their division and reach the conference championship game. Seven years later, they became the youngest NFL franchise to appear in the Super Bowl."
 * This would also remove information that is random trivia. It is not necessary to mention they lost to the Packers (or even that the Packers were the eventual Super Bowl champions), they lost to the Patriots, the score of their first Super Bowl, and they lost to the Broncos. Who they lost two isn't relevant in the summary of the subject - what matters is they lost. The ledes of the featured Miami Heat and Toronto Raptors don't mention who they beat or lost two in championships.
 * While both the Heat and Raptors articles also use this approach of a history overview for the lede, these too are young franchises that can summarize the entire history in a few paragraphs. The featured Calgary Flames article does not because they are 50 years old. Eventually, the lede here will need to follow a similar approach of highlighting the most important seasons and accomplishments. It's best to be proactive on preparing the lede as the Panthers continue to have a lengthier history. Bluerules (talk) 22:04, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Other articles do not matter here. This is a featured article and the lede is established consensus. I am not sure why you are so invested in these other, inferior articles and how they do things - that doesn't matter here. Toa Nidhiki05 23:01, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why you consider other featured articles to be "inferior". This isn't about information that's included/excluded, which is what WP:OTHERSTUFF focuses on, but about good writing practices for articles. The Flames article obtained featured status without recapping the entire team history because there wasn't room for it and eventually, there will not be enough room to recap the entire Panthers' history. When this article received featured status, the lede established by consensus was different. It's since become jumbled, repetitive, and stuffed with unnecessary information. Featured status isn't a permanent status and in order to maintain featured status, the article has to undergo improvements when necessary. Even the top of talk page asks for improvements and this is a case where improvements are warranted. Bluerules (talk) 05:14, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Carolina Panthers


text:
List of New York Central Railroad precursors

The New York Central Railroad (NYCRR) was formed on December 22, 1914, as a consolidation of the companies listed below. It later merged with the Pennsylvania Railroad to form Penn Central.

The NYCRR owned stock in the New York, Chicago and St. Louis Railroad and the Lake Erie and Western Railroad, but sold it in July 1917 and April 1922, respectively.

Adirondack and St. Lawrence Railroad
Also known as the Mohawk and Malone Railway, the Adirondack and St. Lawrence Railroad was built by Dr. William Seward Webb. The line crossed the northern Adirondacks at Tupper Lake Junction, just north of Tupper Lake. Webb began by purchasing the narrow gauge Herkimer, Newport and Poland Railroad, which ran 16 miles from Herkimer to Poland. He then had track built from Tupper Lake to Moira and thence to Montreal. This was variously called the Adirondack and St. Lawrence Railroad and the Mohawk and Malone Railway. It opened in 1892 from Malone Junction to Childwold Station with a branch from Lake Clear Junction to Saranac Lake. After 1893, it was controlled by the New York Central and Hudson River Railroad, and in 1913, it merged with the Central as the "Adirondack Division".

Beech Creek Extension Railroad

 * Canoe Creek Railroad
 * Clearfield Southern Railroad

Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago and St. Louis Railway

 * Cairo, Vincennes and Chicago Railway
 * Cairo and Vincennes Railroad
 * Central Railroad of Indianapolis
 * Central Union Depot and Railway Company of Cincinnati
 * Chicago, Indianapolis and St. Louis Short Line Railway
 * Cincinnati and Michigan Railroad
 * Cincinnati and Southern Ohio River Railway
 * Cincinnati and Springfield Railway
 * Cincinnati Northern Railroad
 * Cincinnati, Jackson and Mackinaw Railway
 * Cincinnati, Van Wert and Michigan Railroad
 * Celina, Van Wert and State Line
 * Columbus and Northwestern Railway
 * Michigan and Ohio Railroad
 * Allegan and Southeastern Railroad
 * Cincinnati, Hamilton, Middletown and Toledo
 * Cincinnati, Indianapolis, St. Louis and Chicago Railway
 * Cincinnati, Sandusky and Cleveland Railroad
 * Cincinnati, Dayton and Eastern Railroad
 * Cincinnati, Wabash and Michigan Railway
 * Cincinnati, Wabash and Michigan Railroad
 * Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati and Indianapolis Railway
 * Bellefontaine Railway
 * Bellefontaine and Indiana Railroad
 * Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati Railroad
 * Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati Railway
 * Cleveland, Indianapolis, St. Louis and Chicago Railway
 * Columbus, Hope and Greensburg Railroad
 * Columbus, Indianapolis and Western
 * Columbus, Springfield and Cincinnati Railroad
 * Mount Gilead Short Line Railway
 * Mount Gilead Short Line Railroad
 * Peoria and Eastern Railway
 * Indianapolis Union Railway
 * Indianapolis Belt Railroad and Stock Yards
 * Indianapolis Belt Railroad
 * Union Railroad Transfer and Stock Yards
 * Indianapolis Belt Railway

Detroit, Monroe and Toledo Railroad (original)
Chartered in 1855, the Detroit, Monroe and Toledo Railroad (DM&T) ran from Detroit, Michigan, south-southwest along the shore of Lake Erie to Monroe, Michigan. It crossed the state line into Ohio, where it ran into Toledo, Ohio. The line was completed on December 25, 1856. The DM&T leased itself in perpetuity to the Michigan Southern and Northern Indiana Railroad (MS&NI) on July 1, 1856. The MS&NI merged with the Lake Shore Railway in 1869 to form the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern Railway (LS&MS). The New York Central and Hudson River Railroad achieved a controlling interest in the LS&MS in 1877, and the two companies merged in 1914 to form the New York Central Railroad. The DM&T's assets were merged into the NYC on January 1, 1915.

Dunkirk, Allegheny Valley and Pittsburgh Railroad (original)

 * Conewango Valley Railroad
 * Dunkirk, Warren and Pittsburgh Railway
 * Dunkirk, Warren and Pittsburgh Railroad

Lake Shore and Michigan Southern Railway (original)

 * Amboy, Lansing and Traverse Bay Railroad
 * Buffalo and Erie Railroad
 * Buffalo and State Line Railroad
 * Buffalo and Mississippi Railroad
 * Battle Creek and Sturgis Railway
 * Cleveland and Toledo Railroad
 * Cleveland Short Line Railway
 * Jamestown, Franklin and Clearfield Railroad
 * Central Trunk Railway
 * Jamestown and Franklin Railroad
 * Junction Railroad
 * Connection Railroad
 * Lake Shore Railway
 * Cleveland, Painesville and Ashtabula Railroad
 * Cleveland and Erie Railroad

Michigan Central Railroad

 * Bay City and Battle Creek Railway
 * Bay City and Battle Creek Railroad
 * Battle Creek and Bay City Railway
 * Buchanan and St. Joseph River Railroad
 * Canada Junction
 * Canada Southern Railway
 * Central Railroad of Michigan
 * Chicago, Kalamazoo and Saginaw Railway
 * Detroit River Tunnel Company
 * Canada and Michigan Bridge and Tunnel Company
 * Canada and Michigan Tunnel Company
 * Michigan and Canada Bridge and Tunnel Company
 * Jackson, Lansing and Saginaw Railroad
 * Amboy, Lansing and Traverse Bay Railroad
 * Kalamazoo and South Haven Railroad

Beech Creek Railroad

 * Beech Creek, Clearfield and Southwestern Railroad
 * Susquehanna and Southwestern Railroad
 * Cambria County Railroad

Boston and Albany Railroad

 * Albany and West Stockbridge Railroad
 * Castleton and West Stockbridge Railroad
 * Boston and Worcester Railroad
 * Chester and Becket Railroad
 * Grand Junction Railroad and Depot Company
 * Chelsea Branch Railroad
 * Hudson and Boston Railroad
 * Hudson and Berkshire Railroad
 * North Brookfield Railroad
 * Pittsfield and North Adams Railroad
 * Providence, Webster and Springfield Railroad
 * Spencer Railroad
 * Springfield and North-eastern Railroad
 * Springfield, Athol and North-eastern Railroad
 * Athol and Enfield Railroad
 * Ware River Railroad
 * Western Railroad

Buffalo and Lockport Railway

 * Buffalo, Kenmore and Tonawanda Electric Railroad

Buffalo and Niagara Falls Railroad

 * Buffalo and Black Rock Railroad

Buffalo and Rochester Railroad

 * Attica and Buffalo Railroad
 * Tonawanda Railroad

Cape Vincent Railway
Construction was completed to Cape Vincent in April 1852. The railroad from limerick to Cape Vincent was abandoned 84 years later, and all rails were removed in the summer of 1967.

Carthage and Adirondack Railway

 * Black River and St. Lawrence Railway

Hudson River Railroad

 * Troy and Greenbush Railroad
 * Troy Union Railroad

Mohawk and Malone Railway

 * Adirondack and St. Lawrence Railway
 * Herkimer, Newport and Poland Railway
 * Mohawk Valley and Northern Railway
 * Herkimer, Newport and Poland Railway
 * Herkimer, Newport and Poland Extension Railway
 * Mohawk and Adirondack Railroad
 * Herkimer, Newport and Poland Narrow Gauge Railway

New Jersey Junction Railroad (leased 7–1–1886)

 * Jersey City and Bayonne Railroad (stock)
 * New Jersey Shore Line Railroad (stock, absorbed 10–24–1914)
 * New York and Fort Lee Railroad (leased, absorbed into NYC&HR 1886)
 * Hoboken and Hudson River Turnpike
 * New York and Bull's Ferry Railroad
 * State Line and Stony Point Railroad (stock)

New York and Harlem Railroad (leased 4–1–1873)

 * Fourth Avenue Street Railway (bought 1–31–1920)
 * New York and Mahopac Railroad
 * Port Morris Branch (c. 1842)

New York and Putnam Railroad

 * New York and Northern Railway
 * New York City and Northern Railroad
 * West Side and Yonkers Railway
 * Yonkers Rapid Transit Railway

New York Central Railroad

 * Albany and Schenectady Railroad
 * Mohawk and Hudson Railroad
 * Cairo and Lake Huron
 * Canandaigua and Niagara Falls Railroad
 * Catskill Railroad
 * Columbus Northwestern Railway
 * Saratoga and Hudson River Railroad
 * Ulster and Delaware Railroad
 * Utica and Schenectady Railroad

Niagara Bridge and Canandaigua Railroad

 * Canandaigua and Niagara Falls Railroad

Spuyten Duyvil and Port Morris Railroad

 * Spuyten Duyvil and Port Morris Railroad

West Shore Railroad (leased 12-5-1885)

 * Athens Branch
 * Buffalo Lehigh
 * New York, West Shore and Buffalo Railway (changed name 12–5–1885)
 * North River Railroad
 * Jersey City and Albany Railway
 * Jersey City and Albany Railroad
 * North River Railway
 * Syracuse, Ontario and New York Railway (absorbed 6–30–1891)
 * West Shore and Ontario Terminal Company (absorbed 7–9–1901)

Toledo and Ohio Central Railway

 * Atlantic and Lake Erie Railroad
 * Atlantic and Northwestern Railroad
 * Ohio Central Railroad
 * Columbus and Sunday Creek Valley Railroad
 * Ohio Central Railway
 * Zanesville and Western Railroad

Ulster and Delaware Railroad (merged 1932)

 * Rondout and Oswego Railroad
 * New York, Kingston and Syracuse Railroad
 * Hobart Branch Railroad (absorbed 1884)
 * Delaware and Otsego Railroad (absorbed 1887)
 * Stony Clove and Catskill Mountain Railroad (absorbed 1892)
 * Kaaterskill Railroad (absorbed 1892)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
Talk:Joseph Beyrle

Untitled
This needs to be added...

Fair use rationale for File:1003656-173400.jpg
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There is an article about Joseph Beryle a paratrooper that jumped D-day, the article states that he is belived to be the only soldier to fight with the Russians during WWII. What do I need to do to have this changed to include my DAD, whom was also a POW in the same Stalag IIIC as Mr Beryl. He also escaped and fought with the Russians and liberated the camp. (Zellready (talk) 19:26, 22 April 2009 (UTC))

Recent edit
Preserving here by providing this link. My rationale was: "excessive listing of awards in the infobox -- leave the higher ones; unneed iconography in infobox; c/e lead for notability". --K.e.coffman (talk) 22:51, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Some inconsistencies
There is something with the pictures that I would like to point out, since it appears odd to me: The POW-photograph:
 * The picture has been taken with two lightsources. This is kind of odd for circumstances in WW2 Germany. Electrical lights were considered a luxury. Rooms used to have one lightsource if at all. Two electrical lightsources in a prison camp in a room for registering POWs is remarkable.
 * His name neatly imprinted in his shirt. Germans didn't do that for their prisoners. Is that part of US-clothing?
 * The writings on his sign: The figure 1 is written in a typical angloamerican / anglosaxian way, like a capital I. The german type looks more like a 7.

The POW-registration card:
 * It is all written in english. The writing appear to be the same as on the sign in the POW-picture. It might be written by himself maybe because the german officer was too lazy to write the form by himself. In addition the profession butcher has been translated to german with a different writing. Still, it's a bit odd.

The russian medic report:
 * I'm not that fluent with kyrillic handwriting. At least his given name "Joseph" is written correctly. What stands out is the year of birth, which says 1925.

I am NOT going to diminish the story of that brave seargant. But the pictures do not fit well. Maybe someone with the given knowledge can explain these inconsistencies? 94.219.226.81 (talk) 21:26, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

 * This is all what we call WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH and there is no actionable edit to take to this page. There could be two sources of light, that could be his own shirt that already had the text, he could have written the placard himself, etc. It's all irrelevant and Wikipedia is not Snopes. A better place for this discussion is on the talk page of the image file itself, you may find some answers there. JesseRafe (talk) 17:36, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

In the military we learn to write our last names on our underwear, so it doesn't get mixed up with anyone else's. Today it's done in black marker, but it's very likely Beyrle, and perhaps a few of his friends, had it done this way. I'm surprised about the "two light sources" comment. Where does this come from? Lord Milner (talk) 20:38, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Addition of new source.
I was reading about Joseph Beyrle in an article called “Local WWII hero Joe Beyrle's possessions part of international exhibit” by mlive that was released in 2010, and I noticed a picture of Beyrle’s medals included a few that aren’t mentioned on this page. Could we use this article as a new source on Beyrle’s military awards? I haven’t been a Wiki editor for all that long, so I wanted to make sure this was alright. Christian292004 (talk) 00:34, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Joseph Beyrle


text:
Antoine Court de Gébelin

Antoine Court, who named himself Antoine Court de Gébelin (Nîmes, 25 January 1725 – Paris, 10 May 1784), was a Protestant pastor, born in Nîmes, who initiated the interpretation of the Tarot as an arcane repository of timeless esoteric wisdom in 1781.

The New International Encyclopedia of 1914 reports that Court de Gébelin, who adopted the surname of his grandmother, was a literary man of recognized rank, and rendered excellent service, first as his father's amanuensis and assistant and afterward as a scholar at the capital. He is remembered in connection with the case of Jean Calas, by his work Les Toulousaines, ou lettres historiques et apologétiques en faveur de la religion réformée (Lausanne, 1763).

Early life
His father was Antoine Court, a famous religious leader of the Huguenots. Court de Gébelin had been ordained a pastor in 1754 before departing Switzerland and remained openly Protestant, a rational advocate for freedom of conscience in Enlightenment France. In Paris, he was initiated into Freemasonry at the lodge Les Amis Réunis, in 1771, and moved on to the lodge Les Neuf Sœurs where he welcomed Benjamin Franklin as a lodge-brother.

Career
He was a supporter of American Independence who contributed to the massive Affaires de l'Angleterre et de l'Amérique, of the new theories of economics, and of the "animal magnetism" of Mesmer.

In a letter from the Reverend James Madison to James Madison dated 15 June 1782 he is spoken of with the words, "Mr. Gibelin of Paris, who is said tho’ to have a very great Reputation."

He was elected a Foreign Honorary Member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences in 1781. In 1783, he was elected a member of the American Philosophical Society in Philadelphia.

His great project had for its goal to set out to reconstruct the high primeval civilization. Reinterpreting Classical and Renaissance evocation of the Golden Age in mankind's early history, Court de Gébelin asserted that the primitive worldwide civilization had been advanced and enlightened. He is the intellectual grandfather of much of modern occultism. His centers of focus are the familiar ones of universal origins of languages in deep time and the hermeneutics of symbolism. While his views on hermeneutics and religious matters were largely conservative, his original ideas and research on the origin of language earn him a place among pioneers of linguistics. Court de Gébelin presented dictionaries of etymology, what he called a universal grammar, and discourses on the origins of language. His volumes were so popular he republished them separately, as Histoire naturelle de la parole, ou Précis de l'Origine du Langage & de la Grammaire Universelle ("Natural History of Speech, or a Treatise on the Origins of Language and of Universal Grammar"), in Paris, 1776.

With regard to mythology and symbology, he discussed the origins of allegory in antiquity and recreated a history of the calendar from civil, religious, and mythological perspectives.

The tarot
De Gébelin wrote an essay included in his Le Monde primitif, analysé et comparé avec le monde moderne ("The Primeval World, Analyzed and Compared to the Modern World"), volume viii, 1781. The chapter on Tarot with which his name is indelibly associated is a single section in his vast compendium that he published in series from 1773, to a distinguished list of subscribers, headed by Louis XVI of France.

It was his immediate perception, the first time he saw the Tarot deck, that it held the secrets of the Egyptians. Writing without the benefit of Champollion's deciphering of the Egyptian language, Court de Gébelin developed a reconstruction of Tarot history, without producing any historical evidence, which was that Egyptian priests had distilled the ancient Book of Thoth into these images. These they brought to Rome, where they were secretly known to the popes, who brought them to Avignon in the 14th century, whence they were introduced into France. An essay by the Comte de Mellet included in Court de Gebelin's Monde primitif is responsible for the mystical connection of the Tarot's 21 trumps and the fool with the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet. An essay appended to this gave suggestions for cartomancy; within two years the fortune-teller known as "Etteilla" published a technique for reading the tarot, and the practice of tarot reading was born.

title: Antoine Court de Gébelin


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/NewsGator

NewsGator
NewsGator was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete.

Blatant advertising. Even if the article is cleaned up, we're left with a substub about a newsreader that's not particularly noteworthy -- Ferkelparade π 11:21, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Blatant advertising. [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|(talk)]] 12:12, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)
 * Of course I wanted to vote delete as well. [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|(talk)]] 12:13, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

 * Delete: Advertising of one of the scariest bits of spyware out there.  Geogre 15:11, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * If it's "one of the scariest bits of spyware out there," mightn't it be notable? Could somebody who knows more than I about spyware merge anything npov into spyware, perhaps, and redirect? Samaritan 16:19, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I don't think a redirect would be helpful...in the interest of fairness, it should be noted that NewsGator is not in any way related to Gator and is to the best of my knowledge not a spyware program (kind of makes one wonder why they chose that company name...that's a bit like someone trying to enter the performance car market and calling their company SportsYugo. That would not exactly inspire confidence) -- Ferkelparade π 16:36, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * NewsGator isn't related to Gator? That's good to know.  I would sure as heck not name my product after the most infamous spybot in history, though.  Are you sure it's not related?  I may have been wrong in characterizing the product, if it doesn't do what Gator did (build a huge prefs file on your HDD and send it back to the mother ship...all to allow you to get "tailor made" news, which is really allowing the mothership to build a huge marketing db that it plans to sell access to).  Geogre 19:33, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete - advertising. Spangineer 15:52, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete on grounds of blatant spammery. [[User:GRider|GRider\talk]] 19:11, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete, corrosive ad Wyss 22:41, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Mmm... spam.... deleat before I get indigestion. Alphax (talk) 05:06, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Even if it isn't Gator, this is still an ad. P Ingerson 12:16, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Comment: While this article is dreck, NewsGator is a pretty popular RSS aggregator. It's NOT Gator, in any way shape or form.
 * Delete. Advertisement. - Andre Engels 10:40, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
Talk:TCN

Untitled
I thought Packer now owned QTQ-9 in Brisbane? That's what I meant to imply in that paragraph - I didn't mean it to sound like QTQ and NWS were now both owned by Packer/PBL. -- Chuq 11:21, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

woeful writing
"Nine News Sydney (entitled National Nine News) is now anchored by Peter Overton on weeknights, with Ken Sutcliffe presenting sport Sundays to Thursdays and Stephanie Brantz presenting sport Fridays and Saturday. Jaynie Seal presents the weather Sunday to Thursday, with Mike Bailey presenting on Friday and Saturday. Jim Waley signed off in March 2005 as the bulletin's major weeknight presenter. Waley had been the longest serving presenter at the time, after the 2002 retirement of Brian Henderson and also after he quit the role as long-time host of The Sunday Program. After Jim Waley's retirement from the newsroom, The Nine Network announced that they would hand the Channel Nine Newsroom over to weekend presenter Mark Ferguson, when he finally became Sydney's major weeknight news anchor. In 2008, after very poor ratings losing to Seven News, National Nine News became Nine News as part of the attemped major revamp. In 2009, after a year of more very poor ratings, also losing to Seven, Ferguson was demoted to his former role as weekend newsreader and announced that he is replaced by fill-in presenter, Peter Overton."

Which nimkompoop wrote this?

owning stations
sounds in one paragraph like packer never owned brisbane and perth stations, then in the later paragraph it says he bought them from alan bond! They both can't be right!

Packers eventually owned all Nines in capital cities by the late 60s, although TCN-9 in Sydney was the only one they started from scratch in 1956. Murdoch bought Ten (Illawarra) in 1964 and illegally pointed the antenna at Sydney (I remember the shit reception and programs). He had to sell it when the x-ownership laws came into force. The Nine network syndication started in 1964. Kerry sold selected stations to Bond, including Bris, Adelaide, and Perth. They were the ones losing money. The buy back figure as I remember was $165M, not $200M as stated in the article. Bond Media was a public cpy, and most of the shareholders were small private retirement funds. They lost out since they were not secured. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.240.229.8 (talk) 12:14, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Productions at TCN-9
A number of titles listed (past and present) even though have aired on TCN, were not produced at TCN studios, eg. The Sullivans (GTV-9), Here's Humphrey (NWS-9) and Hey Hey It's Saturday while it had some special editions from TCN-9, it was primarily produced out of GTV-9 Melbourne.

-- I agree. Sorry to say to people who put it in this article.. but Hey Hey it's Saturday was produced in Melbourne. And also some This Is Your Life episodes were produced in Melbourne. It depends where the people they were dedicating live. My family have attended many episodes of This is Your Life in Melbourne. :)

HHIS was produced in Melb even when 0-Ten did it for one year. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.240.229.8 (talk) 12:21, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:WelcomeToTelevision.jpg
The image Image:WelcomeToTelevision.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
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The following images also have this problem:

 * File:Channel Nine logo.png

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --02:44, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

title: Talk:TCN


text:
Talk:Phi Kappa Theta

Hotlinking Active Chapter Homepages
Does any editor have issue with me beginning to hotlink the chapters in the list to their respective homepages? Wynler 20:38, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

No. Not at all. In fact, I listed them anticipating that chapter members would do just that. Hopefully all chapters will eventually be linked to their respective websites. Thanks for asking. Trojanpony 09:52, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

 * By the way, responding to these comments from 15 years ago. Our practice has evolved here on Wikipedia to avoid linking directly to chapter website. Too often, these go dormant or are vectors for viruses. University portal pages are better, and less subject to malware code. Jax MN (talk) 22:41, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Redirects
Phi Kappa Sigma is also known as the "phi kaps" so I'm removing the redirect for now. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.196.79.169 (talk • contribs) 21:53, 23 August 2006 (UTC).

Phi kaps is legitimately a disambiguation page. Pity we have to alphabetize in English order and not Greek. :) For good measure, I have also added us to the Phi Kappa disambiguation page and made a redirect pointing here at Theta Kappa Phi. —C.Fred (talk) 01:46, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Notable Phi Kaps
Given the explosion in this section, we need to come up with reliable sources for each one's status. I don't want to yank them all back down en masse, and I don't want to slap an tag on the section, either. Please help me go looking for sources before another editor does, though. —C.Fred (talk) 16:54, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Phi Kappa Theta


text: File:Lenore characters.jpg

title: File:Lenore characters.jpg


text:
Talk:Chumbawamba

GM Money
The thing with them and GM and the song Pass It Along is mentioned twice in different places with conflicting details.

The Discography
It is scary. Very scary. How it's set up that is. Anyone have more information than this, to help get a good, clean discography in here?

Kell 06:08, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, I think a cleanup is in order. Just to get some confirmation, I think they are syndicalists, not just anarchists. Am I correct?Habsfannova 01:41, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

 * No Chumbawamba have always clearly described themselves as anarchists quercus robur 16:36, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
 * To second Quercus: yes, anarchists, not specifically syndicalists. --Smooth Henry 21:27, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but I have no clue. And, damnit, I'm such a noob. I should have thought of marking clean-up. Ah well, lesson learned. Thanks.

Kell 06:14, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

Heh. Apparently, I did mark a cleanup. But...I don't remember doing it. Eh.

Kell 06:45, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

Has this already been done? Looks good to me now. --Smooth Henry 21:27, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

Could someone expand the discography to include track listings? I mean, on another page? AlmostJinkies

Cleaned up! justjeshb

better list of band members
Can we get a better list of former and current band members? --Pathogen 00:48, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Done! justjeshb Feb 2 2009 —Preceding undated comment was added at 21:59, 2 February 2009 (UTC).

Who is "Matt Kirsch (2000– ) – backup accordion and standard marching band snare"? I have never heard any mention of him anywhere, on studio or live records, or live videos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Justjeshb (talk • contribs) 09:37, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Squats
The Squats link goes to a disambiguation page, but I don't know which one its intended for, anyone? Anaraug 10:01, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Premises occupied without the owners permission. Fixed. TheMadBaron 13:18, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

The name
"A definitive answer has appeared: In an interview on a German website with Alice and Boff, the members said that the "Chumbawamba" was the mascot of a football team, Walford Time which they found in the "Rothman's Yearbook"...."

Firstly, I listened to the clip and it's Walford TOWN, not Walford Time. Also, what is there that suggests this is any more definitive an answer than any of the many others they have given down the years?

(It should also be noted that Google can find no record of any football team ever having existed in the UK with that name other than the fictitious one that is occasionally mentioned in EastEnders. Also, teams didn't generally have mascots in the 1930s.  I think this is just yet another wind-up......) 62.232.55.188 13:18, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Just a thought, but in Star Wars: Return of the Jedi, when the Ewoks see C-3PO for the first time they all exclaim "Chumbawamba". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.24.159.213 (talk) 19:31, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Television Appearances (USA)
Hi folks.

I just thought I'd add that Chumbawamba appeared on at least one prominent show on the NBC network when they were enjoying the success of "Tubthumping"(mid to late 90's?).

The "Tonight Show with Jay Leno" (likely), "Saturday Night Live" (unlikely), or perhaps it was "Late Night with Conan O'Brien" (very likely) featured a performance during which the band segued from the usual musical arrangement into a special chorus of "Free Mumia Abu-Jamal" (political prisoner in Pennsylvania, USA). With the instruments subdued (perhaps they stopped altogether?), all band members repeated this chorus several times, further emphasizing the political message of their chant. I don't recall, but I believe they segued back into the song, although the song might have ended with the chant.

The significance of this, of course, is that bands rarely, if ever, stray from their scripts when performing on American TV. And even when they do, they rarely do so to broadcast a pointed politically *progressive* message to millions of televisioin viewers. Unfortunately, most viewers were unaware of Mumia Abu-Jamal and the injustices he endured. But I suspect that politically progressive viewers around the nation applauded, as I did. Also, since NBC broadcast to the tri-state area (NY, PA, NJ), there is a very good chance that the local Pennsylvania media might have picked up on the story.

Personally, I had been turned-off by Chumbawamba's stupid Tubthumping song (with its vapid lyrics), but when I happened to see them on television chanting "Mumia Abu Jamal", it renewed my faith that the band I once loved hadn't completely gone commercial.

The only other time I can recall a deliberate, politically progressive act by a musician on NBC was when Sinead O'Connor ripped up a picture of then Pope John Paul while performing live on Saturday Night Live. I actually went to the dress rehearsal for this show, and during the dress rehearsal she simply held up an innocuous framed picture of a young boy.

Sorry for the rambling, but can anyone confirm the details of this nationally broadcast Chumbawamba performance?

UPDATE: OK, after google -ing, it appears that my memory was faulty. Chumbawamba performed this song on David Letterman, who by that time was with CBS, not NBC. At least I was very close :)

esteban 66.229.13.37

Oh, please. They're not anarchists, they just play them on TV. (While selling their "anarchist" stuff to Disney to be used in Airbud 2!) Come on, it's like believing in professional wrestlers' story lines. Profhum (talk) 00:39, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I believe that Chumbawumba was the name of a cartoon African in an early Mickey Mouse feature.

The Day the Nazi Died/Enough is Enough
Could someone add info on their release of the song "The Day the Nazi Died," and their re-release/re-mix of "Enough is Enough" to protest the election of a Nazi apologist Prime Minister in Austria (?). -Danspalding 07:02, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Done! justjeshb

Tracks named after villages?
They also addressed the poverty of pit villages in the 1990s by naming tracks after Fitzwilliam, West Yorkshire and Frickley, which they mistakenly took to be a South Yorkshire village when it was just a pit in South Elmsall, West Yorkshire.

Could someone clarify what tracks this refers to, as I don't know of any tracks the band have recorded with the names of those villages in the title........... ChrisTheDude 13:40, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Hi Chris, Fitzwilliam was a track on a miners benefit album Chumbas contributed to back in 1984, never heard of a track called 'Frickley' though, although when I stayed with them years ago I think it was the name of their cat??? The sentence is a bit naff and obscure though, I'd be inclined to edit it out... quercus robur 17:30, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

The name (again!) and Ewoks
I removed this bit from the section on the name: * In the movie Return of the Jedi, right after the group has fallen through the Ewoks' food trap that enticed Chewbacca, C-3PO gets up and one of the Ewoks is clearly heard saying "Chumbawamba". Return of the Jedi wasn't released anywhere in the world until May 1983, approximately a year after the first release credited to Chumbawamba, so there's no way a line in the film could have inspired the name, nor have the band ever claimed it to be so (the section in question covers explanations which the band themselves have cited).

If an Ewok can genuinely be heard saying "chumbawamba" in the film, then it must be down to either:
 * 1) A sly reference by a film crew member who was familiar with the already-existing band (highly unlikely given their status at the time)
 * 2) Wishful thinking by the viewer/the viewer distorting the syllables in their own head to hear the band's name
 * 3) Sheer coincidence

ChrisTheDude 10:26, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Politics mentioned in the lede
I haven't looked at this article for a few months, but it used to mention their anarchism in the lede. It doesn't now, which I think is odd because pretty much everything they do is driven by and centred around their politics. What were the arguments for and against leaving this in? The Wednesday Island 18:20, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

What copyright reasons?
"the accompanying liner notes (removed from the US release of the Tubthumper album for copyright reasons)" - the precise reason is not explained in this article, nor in Tubthumper, nor in Tubthumping. Please fix this. 86.132.142.246 (talk) 01:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I worked on the US release. The version submitted had tons of copy from something by John Lennon, I forget the exact source, but it was all word for word as I recall. The band refused to change it, so the compromise is what you see in the US release.

Fair use rationale for Image:Luddite1.png
Image:Luddite1.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Fair use images
I did quite a trim; use of images like this could only be justified on the articles on the recordings, or here if there was some evidence that the images themselves were noteworthy, as opposed to the recordings they accompanied. I'd be sympathetic to either approach, but prior to my edits it looked a little like a fair use gallery, which is specifically deprecated. Sorry. --John (talk) 06:34, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Songs in media
I've changed the text underneath the 'Songs in media' header as it stated that Tubthumping appeared in Fifa 98 - Road to world cup, when in fact it actually appeared in the game World Cup '98, which was released a year later. Both games are by EA, so whoever wrote this probably got it confused. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.53.233.115 (talk) 09:56, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The article mentions they had been "banned" in Germany for around a year after performing nude. That cannot be true, there is no law in Germany that would allow someone to get banned from TV, neither allow a musician's music to be banned as a result from a TV act. Only "banning" of specifically defined songs or albums is possible by law (called "Indizierung"). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.88.74.58 (talk) 18:03, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Why no mention?
Why isn't it mentioned they are gay? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.118.182.129 (talk) 15:11, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Says who? Of the current line-up, Boff and Lou are certainly both in long-term relationships with members of the opposite sex, as are/were former members, Danbert, Alice and Harry, so it's certainly not accurate to characterise the whole band as gay.... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:20, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

"Hardcore punk"?
Hardcore punk should be removed. Never seen any sources call them that, and even back when they played anarcho-punk it wasn't hardcore. Should be removed. --BlackMath77 (talk) 21:22, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Discography
It's very long. I propose that everything be split off onto a new article, Chumbawamba discography, and just the official albums and possibly singles duplicated here. Thoughts.....? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:11, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Done! justjeshb Feb 2 2009 —Preceding undated comment was added at 22:01, 2 February 2009 (UTC).

Associated acts
Any justification for Notsensibles being listed as an "associated act"?--Michig (talk) 11:54, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No justification provided, so I'm removing it.--Michig (talk) 09:50, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

English/British
The band seems to identify as English (i.e. their fondness for English folk music) rather than British, but this was recently changed from the former to the latter. Thoughts? Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 21:26, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Only Stupid Bastards (Conflict)
Removed the following section of text;

 * "British anarcho-punk band Conflict released a similar condemnation of the band: a live album entitled "Only Stupid Bastards Support EMI", which included an open letter to the band condemning the move, and ridiculing their excuse of EMI being a tool to better "spread their message"."

'Only Stupid Bastards...' was released in 1985 (12 years before Chumbawamba signed to EMI!) and was directed as a critisism at New Model Army, being a play on their slogan 'Only Stupid Bastards Use Heroin', so not really relevant to this article, fine album though it is! 92.232.113.122 (talk) 11:03, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Good catch! Not sure which album you mean by "fine", though I'd have to agree as I've been both a Conflict and NMA fan at various points ;-) TFOWR 12:47, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

General Motors
In two sections of the article are two conflicting phrases about how much money Chumbawamba received from GM. One source says $100,000, the other $70,000. Shouldn't this be clarified?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chumbawamba#Televised_performances

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chumbawamba#MUTT_Records

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.66.98.6 (talk) 16:05, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Platform
Not only is this article too long and full of excessive trivial detail, but it seems to be acting as a platform for the band's politics. ...Encyclopedia, not soapbox... 92.234.49.22 (talk) 04:28, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Banned from German television
This can hardly be true. There is no law or institution that could ban a complete act from television in Germany. Certain stations could have put them on an internal ban list, but that's about it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.134.37.244 (talk) 16:33, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

 * Errr, yes there is. There are a variety of laws in Germany which could be used to ban such acts. Plus there is an entire government department which polices music, video games, etc. Maybe you should Wiki BPjM (Federal Review Board for Media Harmful to Minors). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.151.186.118 (talk) 19:08, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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Simon "Commonknowledge" Lanzon and Cobie Laan
Was Simon Commonknowledge a member? He seems to have been a lot more enduring than other people we list as guests, and sometimes credited as a member - as far as I can see Revolution credited him as a member, but Pictures as a guest, then English Rebel Songs 1381-1914 and Slap! as a band member, then back to being an additional musician (alongside Neil Ferguson until Neil actually joins in 1999).

Cobie Laan is also credited as a member on the original English Rebel Songs, and on Slap! though on the latter for recording rather than as a musician, so it may be more justifiable to view her as a one-off collaborator if ERS was her only appearance as a musician. TSP (talk) 17:47, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Chumbawamba


text:
Brück aerial testing facility

The Brück aerial testing facility  is a facility for testing aerials at Brück, south of Berlin. It was established in 1939.

Overview
On the Brück aerial testing facility there are two 54 m wood-framework towers built in 1963, made without any metallic parts and used for mounting aerials to measure their characteristics. One of these towers, the Messturm III, consists of two towers connected by a bridge on top, while the other, the Messturm II, is from conventional design.

A third wood tower, the former Messturm I, which was built in 1958, was destroyed in a fire in 1979.

title: Brück aerial testing facility


text:
User talk:SpaceMoose

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title: User talk:SpaceMoose


text:
User talk:Gbarros

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title: User talk:Gbarros


text:
Rare

Rare may refer to:

 * Rare, a particular temperature of meat
 * Something infrequent or scarce, see Scarcity
 * Rare species, a conservation category in biology designating the scarcity of an organism and implying a threat to its viability

Rare or RARE may also refer to:

Acronyms

 * Ram Air Rocket Engine, a U.S. Navy program of the 1950s
 * Ronne Antarctic Research Expedition

Music

 * Rare (Northern Irish band), a 1990s trip hop group
 * Rare (Serbian band), an alternative rock band

Albums

 * Rare (Asia album), 1999
 * Rare (David Bowie album), 1982
 * Rare (Hundredth album), 2017
 * Rare (Selena Gomez album) or the title song (see below), 2020
 * Rare!, by Crack the Sky, 1994
 * Rare, Vol. 1, by Ultravox, 1993
 * Rare, Vol. 2, by Ultravox, 1994
 * Rare: The Collected B-Sides 1989–1993, by Moby, 1996
 * Rare, by Xiu Xiu, 2012

Songs

 * "Rare" (Gwen Stefani song), 2016
 * "Rare" (Selena Gomez song), 2020
 * "Rare", by Man Overboard from Man Overboard, 2011

Organizations

 * Rare (company), a British video game development studio
 * Réseaux Associés pour la Recherche Européenne, a computer networking organisation known since 1994 as TERENA
 * Rare (conservation organization), an environmentalist group
 * Rare (news website), a U.S.-based website

People

 * Vanessa Rare, New Zealand film and television actress, film screenwriter and director

title: Rare


text:
Talk:Rare

Primary direct should be to Rare species
"Rare" should direct to rare species since that is the dominant use and other articles are well disambiguated in their linkages. the Rare species page should have a note at the top directing those interested in other uses to the disambig page, which of course should be left in tact, but labelled as a disambig page. Anlace 02:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Requested move (2015)
Talk:Rare_Ltd. – czar   16:28, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

"Rare"
The usage and topic and naming of Rare is under discussion, see talk:Rare -- 70.51.200.135 (talk) 04:54, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

title: Talk:Rare


text:
Fretwork

Fretwork is an interlaced decorative design that is either carved in low relief on a solid background, or cut out with a fretsaw, coping saw, jigsaw or scroll saw. Most fretwork patterns are geometric in design. The materials most commonly used are wood and metal. Fretwork is used to adorn furniture and musical instruments. The term is also used for tracery on glazed windows and doors. Fretwork is also used to adorn/decorate architecture, where specific elements of decor are named according to their use such as eave bracket, gable fretwork or baluster fretwork, which may be of metal, especially cast iron or aluminum. Installing elaborate wooden fretworks on residential buildings, known as gingerbread trims, became popular in North America in the late 19th century.

Fretwork patterns originally were ornamental designs used to decorate objects with a grid or a lattice. Designs have developed from the rectangular wave Greek fret to intricate intertwined patterns. A common misconception is that fretwork must be done with a fretsaw. However, a fretwork pattern is considered a fretwork whether or not it was cut out with a fretsaw.

Computer numerical control (CNC) has brought about change in the method of timber fretwork manufacture. Lasers or router/milling cutting implements can now fashion timber and various other materials into flat and even 3D decorative items.

Fretwork is often used in Squeezebox type instruments to allow air to pass in and out of the instrument while shielding the action board.

Gallery
 Image:Samuel Sharpe Rebellion.jpg|Gable end fretwork Image:Hfr-007.jpg|Timber fretwork Image:Ventilation-grille.jpg|Fretwork for a ventilation or light grill Image:Westgate fretwork.jpg|Gable end Fretwork Image:Concertina fretwork.jpg|Fretwork of an anglo concertina.

title: Fretwork


text:
Yamada Nagamasa

Yamada Nagamasa (山田 長政) was a Japanese adventurer who gained considerable influence in the Ayutthaya Kingdom at the beginning of the 17th century and became the governor of Nakhon Si Thammarat province, which is on the Malay Peninsula in present-day Southern Thailand.

From 1617 until his death in 1630, Yamada Nagamasa was head of the Thai village referred to as Ban Yipun ('Japanese village') in the Thai language. This village was within the city of Ayutthaya (the capital city of the Ayutthaya Kingdom). Ban Yipun was home to roughly 1,000 Japanese citizens and was headed by a Japanese chief who was nominated by Ayutthayan authorities. Its inhabitants were a combination of traders, Christian converts who had fled their home country following the persecutions of Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Tokugawa Ieyasu and Rōnin (unemployed former samurai) who had been on the losing side at the Battle of Sekigahara (1600) or the Siege of Osaka (1614–15). The Christian community seems to have been in the hundreds, as described by Padre António Francisco Cardim, who recounted having administered sacraments to around 400 Japanese Christians in 1627 in the city of Ayutthaya.

Early life
Yamada Nagamasa was born in Numazu, Shizuoka in 1590. He is said to have been a palanquin bearer for the lord of Numazu. He became involved in Japanese trade activities with Southeast Asia during the period of the red seal ships and settled in the Ayutthaya Kingdom (modern-day Thailand) around 1612.

Career
Yamada Nagamasa is alleged to have carried on the business of a privateer from the period of 1620, attacking and plundering Dutch ships in and around Batavia (present-day Jakarta). Stories of Yamada burying his treasure on the east coast of Australia (and in particular, Magnetic Island off Townsville) persist but it is highly unlikely that Yamada would have ventured into that area as there were no trade routes in this region and the only ships to venture to this region were the ones blown off course during the summer storms. Furthermore, Yamada would have passed thousands of islands in the Torres Strait and Coral Sea and these would have provided safekeeping for any treasure and avoided a very long recovery voyage in the future.

The Ban Yipun colony was active in trade, particularly in the export of deer hide to Japan in exchange for Japanese silver and handicrafts (Japanese swords, Japanese lacquerware, high-quality papers). The Japanese were noted by the Dutch for challenging the trade monopoly of the Dutch East India Company (Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie). The colony also had an important military role in the Ayutthaya Kingdom.

Military involvement and lordship

The Japanese colony was highly valued for its military expertise, and was organized under a "Department of Japanese Volunteers" (Krom Asa Yipun) by the King of Ayutthaya.

In the space of 15 years, Yamada Nagamasa rose from the low Thai nobility rank of Khun to the senior of Ok-ya, his title becoming Ok-ya Senaphimuk (Thai : ออกญาเสนาภิมุข). He became the head of the Japanese colony, and in this position supported the military campaigns of King Songtham, at the head of a Japanese army flying the Japanese flag. He fought successfully, and was finally nominated Ligor (modern Nakhon Si Thammarat), in the southern peninsula in 1630, accompanied by 300 samurai.

Travels between Siam and Japan

After more than 12 years in Siam, Yamada Nagamasa went to Japan in 1624 on board one of his ships, where he sold a cargo of Siamese deer hide in Nagasaki. He stayed in Japan for three years, trying to obtain a Red Seal permit, but finally left in 1627, with the simple status of a foreign ship.

In 1626, Nagamasa offered a painting of one of his warship to a temple of his hometown in Shizuoka. That painting was lost in a fire, but a copy of it remains to this day. It portrays a ship with Western-style rigging, 18 cannons, and sailors in samurai gear. He returned to Siam in 1627.

In 1628, one of his ships transporting rice from Ayutthaya to Malacca was arrested by a Dutch warship blockading the city. The ship was released once the identity of the owner became clear, since the Dutch knew that Yamada was held in great respect by the King of Siam, and they did not wish to enter into a diplomatic conflict. Yamada was also valued by the Dutch as a supplier of deer hide, and they invited him to trade more with Batavia.

Death
In 1629, Yamada Nagamasa visited Japan with a delegation from King Songtham.

He soon travelled back to Siam, but became involved in a succession war following the death of the King Songtham by Prasat Thong. Prasat Thong had acted as "king-maker" before assuming the throne, by performing the double regicide of King Songtham's sons. Yamada or Okya Seniphimok, heard of the coup at Ayutthaya and rebelled. Prasat Thong had Praya Chaiya poison him in 1630, and then expelled the remaining Japanese.

End of relations between Siam and Japan
Following Yamada's death in 1630, the new ruler and usurper king of Siam Prasat Thong (1630–1655) sent an army of 4,000 soldiers to destroy the Japanese settlement in Ayutthaya, but many Japanese managed to flee to the Khmer Kingdom. A few years later in 1633, returnees (300–400 Japanese) from Indochina were able to re-establish the Japanese settlement in Ayutthaya.

From 1634, the shōgun, informed of these troubles and what he perceived as attacks on his authority, refused to issue further Red Seal ship permits for Siam.

Desirous to renew trade, however, the king of Siam sent a trading ship and an embassy to Japan in 1636, but the embassies were rejected by the shogun, thus putting an end to direct relations between Japan and Siam. Japan was concomitantly closing itself to the world at that time, a period known as Sakoku.

The Dutch took advantage of the Japanese withdrawal, increasing their trade and offering naval support. Japan lost influence for 300 years after being expelled by Prasat Thong.

Memorial
Yamada now rests in his hometown in the area of Otani. The remnants of the Japanese quarters in Ayutthuya are still visible to visitors, as well as a statue of Yamada in Siamese military uniform.

Film adaptations of Yamada's life

 * The Gaijin (山田長政 王者の剣) – 1959
 * Southern Cross: The Strange Tale of Cornelia Oyuki and Nagamasa Yamada (南十字星 コルネリアお雪異聞 わたしの山田長政) (TV movie) - 1978
 * Yamada: The Samurai of Ayothaya – 2010

title: Yamada Nagamasa


text:
Koffka

 * Kurt Koffka (1886, Berlin – 1941, Northampton, Massachusetts), Jewish German psychologist
 * Friedrich Koffka (1888, Berlin – 1951, London), German jurist, writer
 * Felix Koffka, a fictional character in the Millarworld graphic novel Prodigy: The Icarus Society

Koffke

 * Leticia Koffke (born c. 1971), a German photomodel

title: Koffka


text:
Seddon

Seddon may refer to:

People

 * Seddon (surname)

Australia

 * Hundred of Seddon, a cadastral unit in South Australia
 * Seddon Conservation Park, a protected area in South Australia
 * Seddon, South Australia, a locality
 * Seddon, Victoria, a suburb
 * Seddon railway station

New Zealand

 * Seddon, New Zealand, a town
 * Seddonville, a locality

title: Seddon


text:
User:Crispiness/monobook.css

/* stop background image from scrolling with content area */ body { background-attachment: fixed; }

/* never underline links */ a { text-decoration: none; }

/* put scrollbar on pre sections instead of ugly cutoff/overlap in firefox */ pre { overflow: auto; }

/* make a few corners round, only supported by moz/firefox/other gecko browsers for now */ -moz-border-radius-topleft: 1em; -moz-border-radius-topright: 1em; } -moz-border-radius-topleft: 1em; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft: 1em; } div.pBody { -moz-border-radius-topright: 1em; -moz-border-radius-bottomright: 1em; }
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 * 1) content {

/* same following the css3 draft specs, any browsers supporting this? */ border-radius-topleft: 1em; border-radius-topright: 1em; } border-radius-topleft: 1em; border-radius-bottomleft: 1em; } div.pBody { border-radius-topright: 1em; border-radius-bottomright: 1em; }
 * 1) p-cactions ul li, #p-cactions ul li a {
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/* bottom tab styling (not for IE currently) */ margin: -0.3em 0 0 11.5em; white-space:nowrap; line-height: 1.1em; overflow: visible; border-collapse: collapse; padding: 0 0 0 1em; list-style: none; font-size: 95%; }   display: inline; border: 1px solid #aaaaaa; border-top: none; padding: 0.1em 0 0 0; margin: 0 0.3em 0 0; overflow: visible; background: White; }   border-color: #fabd23; padding: 0.2em 0 0 0; }   background-color: White; color: #005189; border: none; padding: 0.3em 0.8em 0 0.8em; text-decoration: none; text-transform: lowercase; position: relative; margin: 0; }   z-index: 3; text-decoration: none; }   padding-left: 0.4em; padding-right: 0.4em; } /* offsets to distinguish the tab groups */ li#mytabs-ca-talk { margin-right: 1.6em; } li#mytabs-ca-watch { margin-left: 1.6em; }
 * 1) mytabs {
 * 1) mytabs .hiddenStructure { display: none; }
 * 2) mytabs li {
 * 1) mytabs li.selected {
 * 1) mytabs li a {
 * 1) mytabs li.selected a { z-index: 3; }
 * 2) mytabs .new a { color:#ba0000; }
 * 3) mytabs li a:hover {
 * 1) mytabs h5 { display: none; }
 * 2) mytabs li.istalk { margin-right: 0; }
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 * 4) mytabs-ca-addsection a {

-moz-border-radius-bottomleft: 1em; -moz-border-radius-bottomright: 1em; }
 * 1) mytabs li, #mytabs li a {

/* Set rounded corners on pre tags - removed because the corners override the dashed style */ /*pre { -moz-border-radius: 1em; border-style: dashed; }*/

/* Transparent backgrounds on navigation/search/toolbox */ div.pBody { filter:alpha(opacity=50); /* For IE */ -moz-opacity:0.5;        /* For Mozilla */ opacity: 0.5;            /* For CSS3-compliant browsers */ }

title: User:Crispiness/monobook.css