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Talk:Bindi (decoration)

Difference between bindi and tilaka
Both this and the tilaka article stress that these are not the same thing, but they are described in basically exactly the same way. What is the difference and could someone make this clear in at least one of the two articles? Thanks Prolinol (talk) 16:54, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

When is a woman suposed to start wearing one?

 * I would assume that she starts wearing one when she gets married, as the article says that it's worn by married women. Benji 11:59, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I argue on this point. In Northern India females married or unmarried wears bindis. In fact wearing is not the right word to be used.Kumar Chetan

Bindi
Bindi is not just a little dot, it is also a weed and a Name or nickname. it is my nickname. my friends nickname is Bidny (her real name is Brittany). if you come and see this discussion please go to the Unicorn page and add to the disscusion and I might see it and be able to reply!

 * I agree and intend to start a bindi (plant) entry. RevJohn 14:54, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm unsure that this article is accurate
I am wondering if this article is nonsense. My only knowledge of bindis is from Bollywood movies, but ... how is a bindi different from the smudge that people (male and female) get on their foreheads when they visit a temple, or are received as a guest and get smudged from the tray of flowers and lights symbolizing welcome? I dunno if the yoga, ayurvedic, third eye stuff is generally believed, or if the bindi is just a mark either saying "I've been through a religious ceremony" (like Ash Wednesday) or "this is my belief". Don't different shapes and colors of bindis give off different social messages? And how is a bindi related to the three white marks that South Indian Shivaites wear on their foreheads?

And the bit re married women -- isn't that confusing the mark between the eyebrows with the red mark, sindhoor, on the center part of the hair? We need some native informants here! Zora 05:23, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Bindi is not necessarily a religious/married-women thing. Usually, women wear Bindi as they would do other ornaments. Right now, most of the Bindi (also called "Tip" in Bangla) are adhesive versions. But if you are asking about religiou significance of it, I guess somebody from India may cast some light on it. --Ragib 02:41, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Also, the bit about the bindi being "popular among Russian women" is completely made-up. Never seen it in 30 years living in Moscow, except at costume parties! I'm removing that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.80.5.15 (talk) 13:48, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

More information is needed
For a custom of millions of people, you would think there would be more than just a paragraph on the subject. Every time I hear something about Bindis I hear something different. Some say it has caste significance, some religious, some say it indicates marriage, and even others say it is an old outdated custom with all the significance of an ear ring (by that, just for looks). If any Wiki definition needs analitical explanation, this I am sure qualifies. --209.112.222.98 00:20, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Well, yes, we need more info. The web doesn't seem to have much. Is there a forum of South Asian editors where this question could be asked? Zora 00:43, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

 * All the usage cited by 209.112.222.98 are correct, Bindis are used for Hindu castes, marriage symbol for married Hindu Women, religious symbol, and also as a body decoration worn by women from almost all religion in South Asia. I can't help with the religious significance since I'm not well-versed in Hindu customs, but for decorative usage of it (along with pictures of Bindis taken off my wife's collection), I can help. Thanks. --Ragib 02:35, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Bombay Hindi Dialect
Bindi is also a synonym for Bambaiya Hindi

I'm not familiar enough with the markup to put this in the entry. Would someone whose better at it please do so? --Anniepoo 18:20, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Merge with tilak?
That's OK with me, since a bindi seems to be a subset of tilak. I'd just want a redirect, so that anyone looking for bindi would be taken directly to the tilak article.

I will do what I can with the copyediting, but this is one area of Indian custom where I am quite ignorant, so I'm going to have to rely on other editors to make sure the info is correct. Zora 00:23, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I Strongly disagree. The article Tilaka is on the Hinduism-related religious significance of the Tilaka symbol, whereas Bindi is mostly an ornamental symbol, used by women regardless of religion. It is ok to have a summarized section on Bindi in the Tilaka article, but at the same time, Bindi should have its own, elaborate article. In South Asia, Bindi is used by Muslim, Buddhist and Christian women in the same way as Hindu women, and the wearing of Bindi has nothing to do with the religious significance, rather it is more of a cultural phenomenon. The merger of these articles would only propagate the fundamentalist notion and fatwas that wearing of Bindi is a Hindu practice (something not shared by the mainstream culture in South Asia). So, these articles are better left as they are now. Thanks. --Ragib 04:54, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

 * OK, I'll go with that. As I said, I'm ignorant on this subject, and Ragib impresses me as someone who edits WITHOUT a tin-foil hat. Zora 05:21, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Agreed with Ragib. Bindi article should have "See also: Tilak" and Tilak "See also: Bindi". -Jan/VEDA, 20/12/2005

 * well but then the article should say there is a difference. As long as the bindi article says its the same as tilak, and the tilak article says that bindi is just the Hindi term, there is no point in keeping the articles separate. dab (ᛏ) 17:50, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I do understand and appreciate what Ragib means. However, while it may be true that many non-Hindu women of south Asia wear the vermilion mark on their forehead, it is not the case that such usage is known as "wearing the Bindi", while the more emotion-charged use by married Hindu women is known as "wearing the Tilak". If anything, "tilak" has the imagery of use by men, while bindi conjures up a woman. Perhaps we could merge, mention this, and have sections mentioning both occasional use by non-Hindus, and the problems this occasionaly causes. During the heyday of the separatist Khalistan movement in Punjab, Sikh women who sported the Bindi (a pervasive trend) came in for denounciation and even physical assault. Would Ragib agree that merging, with these provisions, would be a good idea? I prefer merging, given the profusion of pages: see Kumkum and Sindoor as well. None of these pages is entirely accurate or comprehensive. Regards, ImpuMozhi 02:05, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

 * I realize belatedly that the debate dates to several months ago. I propose to effect a full rationalization of all these articles soon. ImpuMozhi 03:23, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I put back the merge template, since this question isn't really resolved yet.

I think I'm still in favor of keeping them as separate articles, since the tilak article seems to concern the Hindu meanings, while the bindi article focusses on the fashion uses of the bindi. Given that so many women wear bindis as fashion statements, I think I'd agree with Ragib that the bindi has "escaped" its Hindu origin. Zora 22:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I have just seen this after I put a comment on tilak page. I believe they should be merged and clearly say bindi is not just hindu. We can simply say in the header as "a dot on forehead for relegious or for fashion reasons in south asia and India", and have seperate sections for "relegious significance" and put all hindu information there. It is just confusing and overlapping. It is my opinion, and I can live with either. Mlpkr 20:00, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The two are different, a Bindi is NOT a subset of a Tilak. The two are not synonyms in the current real life. The Tilak is the religous of the two and has a different shape, it's put by smearing coloured powder, and can even have rice grains added on. A Bindi now is mostly used for fashion and is even available as a commercial product with stick on adhesive. A Bindi is used only by women, and a Tilak can be on men or women, the shape and significance of the two are vastly different. Haphar 11:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Gwen stefani
Gwen stefani, on various occasions, has been seen with a "bindi" I think, could someone put that in the article.. somehow lol

thanks

 * Bindis are becoming increasingly popular so listing celebs who were seen with it would be somehow unproductive, imho. One could just say that they are nowadays used as a decoration by Western women, including some celebrities. -Jan/VEDA, 24/03/2006

What does it mean?
regarding the sentence: "Some instances of American pop culture make amusing parallels to the bindi's appearance as similar to the laser sight of a sniper rifle." What does it mean? I ask in genuine bewilderment. Also, what are the instances? Are it really worthy of mention? Please clarify. ImpuMozhi 18:09, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Sounds like a nonsense and incoherent sentence to me. --Ragib 19:14, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Actually, looking at it more closely, I think it means that when someone uses a sniper rifle, the laser sight on the rifle paints a red dot on the area that the bullet should hit (leaving out of account wind and the like). The bindi looks like a sniper dot. That is, if someone is a racist who thinks killing people with bindis is funny. I think that's a racist comment. Zora 22:44, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

 * EXHIBIT A! http://bostonherald.com/sites/default/files/styles/default/public/media/2013/04/19/071813Tsarnaev.jpg 209.172.25.31 (talk) 03:14, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

While I wasn't watching
Someone edited the article and replaced all instances of South Asia with Indian sub-continent. South Asia is a more acceptable term, as it doesn't claim the whole sub-continent for one of the five nations that share it. That's aggressive nationalism, and it is NOT OK. Someone also replaced the word Hinduism with "Hindu dharma," which is an Indian locution that would not be understood by most readers. Zora 01:42, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I'd request Bharatveer to provide evidence that the arcane term "Indian subcontinent" is more commonly used for the region in contemporary usage. I looked in google and failed to find any university with a department titled "Indian subcontinent studies" (except for one or two in Australia). However, most of the universities that do have a department on the region, have named it "South Asian studies". I also looked up the usage of the words "Indian subcontinent" versus "South Asia" (excluding the wikipedia mirrors), and South Asia vastly outnumbers the phrase "Indian subcontinent" (the ratio is 40:1). So, unless Bharatveer can show any proof of the prevalence of the term "Indian subcontinent", which seems to be on its way of becoming a thing of the past, I suggest not reverting this article (and others) constantly. Thank you. --Ragib 05:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

 * As you know very clearly,the term "south asia" is a political term that came into existence from the late 50's (or is it 70's) .The term "Indian SUbcontinent" is more correct and apt in this article in every respect.You are being very optimistic when you say, it is going to be a thing of the past.My best wishes for your "beliefs". I have given the reference for the word "dharma".-Bharatveer 05:36, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it came into use after the Partition, as non-inflammatory. Please stop using a term that will inevitably provoke upset in the citizens of four other nations. South Asia is the term now in use -- even by my Indian friends. Indian sub-continent is primarily used in a geological context, not in a political context. "Indian sub-continent" gets 965,000 google hits and "South Asia" gets 29,800,000 ghits. That's a 30 to 1 ratio. Zora 06:58, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Instead of removing those valid references, pls give your reasons for that.-Bharatveer 07:24, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

In terminology disputes, ghits are accepted as indicative of popular usage. You are outvoted 30 to 1. Again, you're insisting that we must convince YOU and then refusing to listen. Take care; you have had your three reverts for the 24 hours. Zora 07:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * THis is no terminology dispute.The word "Indian" is more suitable than the american created word "south asia".I have given references for the same.-Bharatveer 07:34, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

 * That's YOUR opinion. Until I see any proof of Indian subcontinent being more common (rather than the 30 uses of South Asia for each I.S. use), It'll stay this way. Change when you have some numbers to show for it. That you don't like it really isn't an argument when we have these disparities in the usage of the words. Thank you. --Ragib 12:52, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Even though the term Indian subcontinent is technically correct, it is used primarily for discussing geography. South Asia has more usage when discussing culture and is less contentious because it does not mention a particular nationality. Thanks! AnupamTalk 20:22, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

 * User:Zora, Your deleted both the reference without giving any reasons.You are trying to "own" up the article.Pls read What Wikipedia is not esp the section  Wikipedia is not a battleground .-Bharatveer 04:09, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

One reference was to a commercial website written in sub-standard English, and the other was to a dictionary. Insisting on "Hindu dharma" is silly, given that the phrase is not colloquial English. If it gets taken into regular English, then we can use it. In terms of ghits, Hinduism wins out over Hindu dharma 4 to 1 -- and most of the ghits for "Hindu dharma" seem to be Hindu religious websites. As for "not a battleground" -- projection? Zora 04:15, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Now you are being silly here. Pls try to understand the meaning of the word "colloquial".Colloquial phrases are never used in formal writing, they are just reserved for conversational purposes only.I have given the reference from Merriam_webster's Dictionary for the word "Dharma" , which proves it's regular usage. Now when you have a solid reference like that , you dont go for G-Hits or whatever.So pls re-insert those references again.-Bharatveer 04:26, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, the phrase "Hindu dharma" is neither used in spoken (colloquial) nor extremely formal English. (The two varieties of English are a continuum rather than disjunct; many expressions that are colloquial are also perfectly acceptable in formal writing.) It sounds strange. It sounds HINGLISH. That's my professional (copyeditor, proofreader) opinion. I can ask a copyeditors' mailing list and I'm sure that they would say the same thing. Why fight about this? What the heck is the point of saying "Hindu dharma" rather than "Hinduism"? Zora 10:01, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * In acceptable English, whether proper British, American, or Indian, the term Hindu dharma is not used. South Asia is much more common, lke "BBC News South Asia" etc.  "Indian subcontinent" would be less than accurate, and the strongest reason would be that this does not include Sri Lanka and by definition Nepal or Bhutan.  South Asia however includes all those countries.  Mar de Sin   Speak up!  21:03, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I just saw that the Wikipedia article says Indian subcontinent does include Sri Lanka, but other sources only include India-Bangladesh-Pakistan. A subcontinent usually wouldn't include islands like Sri Lanka or the Maldives, and South Asia would be much more accurate since all definitions I searched included these countries.  Mar de Sin   Speak up!  21:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted BharatVeer's favorite revert ... i.e. replacement of South Asia with "Indina subcontinent". I have demonstrated the more common use of the word "South Asia" over "Indian subcontinent" while talking about the culture and the region. Unless BharatVeer can show some numbers, I'll request him to stop reverting according to his personal tastes.

As for the word "Hindu dharma", the commonly used term in *English language* IS Hinduism. Once you get enough consensus to change the name of the article Hinduism to Hindu Dharma, please revert here. Until then, trying to make an English language encyclopedia replaced by regional languages is plainly illogical. Thank you. --Ragib 06:06, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, this is turning into really irritating game of reverts. As I have shown before, "South Asia" is the more commonly used term for the region, "Indian subcontinent" is NOT. Unless you show proof of your position, this is very unreasonable for you to revert it again and again. Please stop this. Thank you. --Ragib 06:15, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Also, please stop misleading with summaries like "changed to version with reference ". Your reference doesn't show in any way that the region is more commonly called "Indian subcontinent" anymore, and it wasn't removed either. 40:1 ratio of usage between South Asia and Indian subcontinent is a good reason why South Asia is definitely the word to use here for the region. Thank you. --Ragib 06:18, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Just want to remind BharatVeer that he needs to stop gaming the system. I'm not going to revert the article anymore today because I've done it thrice already. IF BharatVeer has ANY evidence to show that the region is more commonly called "Indian subcontinent", he needs to present it here, rather than edit warring against overwhelming consensus and evidence of usage. Thanks. --Ragib 06:21, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

 * User Ragib, Pls stop telling untruth.References were provided to show that the region is called "indian subcontinent" and not for proving the common usage of the word.

 * Again, the word "dharma" is in regular use in English language.Even that reference was deleted without giving any valid reason.-Bharatveer 07:49, 4 November 2006 (UTC)Bharatveer 07:53, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Are you really talking about this "Reference"? It only has "One" casual mention of the word "Indian subcontinent" (There are no rigid rules concerning dress, however there are some traditional practices which may vary from region to region in the Indian Subcontinent.).

 * As for your other preferred word, I see "7,440,000" hits for the English word "hinduism" vs. 193,000 hits for the sanskrit word "Hindu dharma" . Even the m-w reference you provided is for the word "Dharma", which has been used sporadically but not commonly to relate to the concept, but NOT for the term "Hindu Dharma" which is an uncommon and a non-English word.

 * I've shown that the usage of the word "South Asia" is more common (40:1 or so) than "Indian subcontinent" when referring to the region, and you haven't been able to refute it. I've also shown that almost all universities (save one or two) have "South Asian Studies" departments rather than "Indian subcontinent studies" departments. Almost all countries have state departments on "South Asia" and NOT on "Indian subcontinent". That you like IS is your own preference, and there is no reason for the rest of us to follow that over common usage. And precisely the same goes for your continuous arguments for a non-English term over a very commonly used term. Thanks. --Ragib 08:07, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes, the reference was for the word "dharma" .It was given because User:Zora had deleted that word saying there was no such english word.Do you think, you need a reference for the word "hindu" also?Your argument that all countries have state departments on "south asia" just shows the political significance of that term, which is not the issue in question here.
 * "Rest of us" doesnt mean you or User:Zora alone, just let other users decide on this matter.You should not have removed the references just like that.-Bharatveer 09:29, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, do you have any numbers or do you NOT? Don't avoid that. The countries and universities use the term "South Asia" just shows the region is known by this name. Interestingly, you refer to the usage by state departments as political .... then why would universities name their departments, related to the culture of the region, as "South Asian studies"?

 * As for the Non-English term "Hindu Dharma", you have no references, and the reference you are fervently reverting to, isn't even for the term. I can read the above discussion to see that most of it was about the phrase "Hindu Dharma", and not about the word "Dharma". You say, you need a reference for the word "hindu" also?. No I don't, but I do like to see some numbers showing that the phrase "Hindu Dharma" is more common than the other term Hinduism in English language.

 * You have been asked about this before, but without any shred of reference to back up these, you have been reverting to your preferred words. But really, You should not have removed the references just like that - which "removal" of "references" are you talking about? Have you given references to support your two broad claims, at all? Please come up with such references first. Thank you. --Ragib 11:53, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

 * From this edit diff, You argued that Hindu dharma is not an English term.I gave this reference Dharma- MW DIctionary ,the reference from a standard English dictionary that dharma is an english word .Now how do you justify the removal of this reference.Now dont try to misdirect the discussion to g hits again.-Bharatveer 12:53, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Would you please take a look above before adding your comments? The reference you provide above is for the word Dharma which is a religious and philosophical context (please refer to your own reference to learn that). The point is, you were adding it as a support for "Hindu Dharma" being an English term, which isn't by any means. If you can, please provide a reference from the MW dictionary showing that "Hindu Dharma" is considered a more preferred replacement for Hinduism. Once again, you just add more and more comments without actually answering my question. And PLEASE, stop claiming the reference for "Dharma" as one for "Hindu Dharma". At least, READ your own reference before posting here again ... that'll save your and our time and efforts. Thanks. --Ragib 03:11, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I should perhaps add that the term "dharma" is widely used by English-speaking practitioners of Buddhism. However, it's usually used in the sense of "the underlying rules of the universe" which the Buddha is believed to have learned and taught. "Dharma" is used as shorthand for "Buddhist teachings." (The WP article on Dharma is pretty much OK at explaining this.) However, I am under no illusion that any of this would make sense to non-Buddhists. Hence I don't use the term outside my sangha. Insisting that others use terms that make sense only to believers is not the best way to communicate, or to make friends for your beliefs. Zora 03:53, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

 * User:Ragib,Pls take some of your time to learn reading things properly.What makes it so difficult for you to understand "Hindu Dharma" is not a single word, but two words , and both of which are in regular usage in the English language.SO please stop that senseless argument.The reference was cited for "dharma" because YOU insisted that there was no such english word like that.Please have the decency to admit you were wrong.

 * User:Zora,When we are discussing issues like this, it would be best to keep personal details to oneself.The Claims that you are a copywriter/proof reader by profession ; or that you are a Zen budhist by belief is not going to help you much here.It is altogether another matter regarding the veracity of those claims.-Bharatveer 04:07, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Again, you cleverly try to evade the question. I read very well, and since you asked, here is an excerpt from your "reference" ... The meaning of Dharma, as given in the M-W dict, is not what you imply here, rather its meaning is given as an individual's duty fulfilled by observance of custom or law 2 Hinduism & Buddhism a : the basic principles of cosmic or individual existence : divine law b : conformity to one's duty and nature . However, you are arguing that it is a very commonly used synonym for the English language word : "Religion", and therefore, "Hindu + Dharma" = "Hindu + Religion" = Hinduism. And here is your fallacy. Anyway, I've wasted enough bytes here showing the same thing at least three times, so there is no meaning in repeating that again. Even if, hypothetically, your reference showed the word "Hindu Dharma" in the M-W dictionary, there is absolutely no reason we should replace it with something which is 30 times less commonly used. Thank you, and unless you come up with something logical enough, I won't reply to your personal opinions. Thanks. --Ragib 04:29, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

 * You are again repeating your senseless arguments.User Ragib,Pls keep your personal likes & dislikes to yourself.-Bharatveer 05:21, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Well, you don't have any real reply to the questions, and also haven't back up your own arguments. Rather than making ad hominem comments, it might be better to either reply to the questions with references, or agree with the consensus. Thanks. --Ragib 05:36, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, you are repeating your senseless arguments again and again.It would be better if you dont waste your time like this again.-Bharatveer 05:49, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Fine! All I asked was that you give some real references to your viewpoint, and we are yet to see any from you. I have repeated the issue several times above ONLY because you simply skipped the questions and went over and over on the same things (even after being shown that the references don't support them). --Ragib 05:54, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Protected the article in the interim -- Samir धर्म 06:22, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * User Ragib pls stop spouting lies.The reference was for the word dharma which means "a : the basic principles of cosmic or individual existence : divine law b : conformity to one's duty and nature ".
 * First you say that there is no such word "Dharma" in english .When the reference is given, you say that word is not in regular usage.And NOW you are saying that "Hinduism" is used more commonly than "Hindu dharma".So finally the question is about consensus. Let a consensus evolve among the users.There are no fixed rules in wikipedia that only the most acceptable word should be used here.
 * Users Ragib & zora pls read this wiki guideline,  "Wikipedia is not a battleground.-Wikipedia is not a place to hold grudges, import personal conflicts, or nurture hatred or fear. Making personal battles out of Wikipedia discussions goes directly against our policies and goals."  -Bharatveer 06:17, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I dont think it applies to Ragib, but Zora should definitely read this. "Outside South Asia" makes no sense because the geographical area is referred to as the subcontinent. We could merely say "The Subcontinent" if the word "India" is obviously POV]]-[Hindutva-nationalistic.Bakaman Bakatalk 07:45, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I went to this page just as a casual American, native-English speaker curious about bindi. If the purpose of the article is to educate those of us who are curious about Indian customs, it makes more sense to use the more-commonly-understood-to-non-Indian-English-speakers term Hinduism rather than Hindu dharma, which would mean nothing to me without looking it up, be it ever so correct. As I think the point here is communication and education and not didacticism, and this is an English article, I think that might be a useful consideration. As for the other "discussion," I bow to those of you with superior knowledge. Alicefaith 23:16, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I hope the discussion on the English use of the term "Hindu dharma" can end, because no matter how often the terms are separately used, they don't make sense together in English, especially not when compared to the accepted term "Hinduism".   Mar de Sin   Speak up!  20:58, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * "Indian subcontinent" is something that's used only in the Indian subcontinent, probably only in India. So 'South Asia' indeed is the right way to call it.
 * And that apart, again and again and yet again, WHY do we have the Hindi transliteration here? This kind of 'Hindi'-ising every article possible even remotely connected to India is shameful.  Either remove the Hindi transliteration and replace it with a spelling with diacritics/IPA etc., or add transliterations of every other language in India the 'sub-continent'.  Otherwise a Pottu for the Tamil usage, a Bottu for the Kannada usage, the respective terms in Bangla, Sinhala, and all other languages of the subcontinent/South Asia will be in order.  Because certainly a 'Bottu' is every bit as important and notable and encyclopaedic as the 'Bindi'.   Sarvagnya 02:40, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * THe title of the article is Bindi (not Bottu, Tilaka etc). Why do you have to bring the same useless anti-Hindi canard on every page? First it was Jana Gana Mana, Vande Mataram and Saare Jahan Se Achcha (which you used socks to 3RR game). The only thing shameful is how you troll on India related pages.Bakaman Bakatalk 04:55, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Anyway, I have a hard time locating South Asia on a map, (perhaps because it doesn't exist?), and Indian subcontinent accurately describes the geographical region as one bounded by the Himalayas and Hindu Kush on the North and the Indian Ocean on the south.Bakaman Bakatalk 05:02, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm not seconding Sarvagnya's comments regarding using Hindi (if Bindi is a Hindi language word, Hindi is the language to use here, if it is from something else, that'd be the language to use, so no point in arguing over that). But we are not talking about mountains and oceans here. When it comes to the culture, people, and nations, the term in use is "South Asia", as demonstrated by contemporary usage. You'd find "South Asian studies" for departments that study the culture and people of the region; and NOT "Indian subcontinent studies". Numbers show that the ratio is almost 30-40 to 1. That, by itself, is enough to end this discussion. Thanks. --Ragib 05:15, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

 * User:Ragib,Its not the end of the discussion .Just let other users to elucidate their veiws.Thats how a consensus is formed.Looks like some people here are in a real hurry.-Bharatveer 05:26, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

 * WE are discussing geography here. Where is it being worn? In the Indian subcontinent. Who is wearing it? - South Asian women. That's the most sensible way to go. Obviously you dont find ISC (Indian subcontinent studies). They're not studying the geography of the subcontinent, they are studying South Asian culture. My comments are most aligned with Anupam above.Bakaman Bakatalk 00:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Just thought I'd add to this old argument just for information if people are interested. 'Indian subcontinent' or even 'the subcontinent' is THE term used in Australia to refer to countries in this region. It is very commonly used to describe India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka or Bangledesh in cricket, ie, subcontinental cricket, and consequentally is the term used in general. It is not considered or meant to be a racist term. I realise that this is very different from the UK (where I have also lived) and was a source of amusing confusion when I was playing cricket there and was told when I joined the club that several good Asian players were members. I was quite surprised as the only Asian country I could think of where cricket was even played to any extent was Malaysia and it didn't occur to me that they might be subcontinental players!  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.88.131 (talk) 06:09, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Reverts
A certain user (who I'm not going to talk to) should see WP:VAND and WP:AGF. Bakaman Bakatalk 02:39, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

A word of reason
Hello? Isn't this getting just a little bit silly? This talk page is umpteen kilobytes and the article itself is only a screen full. Obviously there are some regional differences. Describe what you know from your region as applicable to your region, and if someone from another region finds things to be the same, they can note that it's the same in their region, too. Don't fret too much about it; you've got readers all over the world just trying to get a general idea of what this Bindi thing is all about. -- ke4roh 03:47, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Hindu dharma
I replaced the imported phrase "Hindu dharma" with "Hinduism" once again. Same reasoning -- this is an English language encyclopedia and we use the terms that are most familiar to readers.

I'm also wondering about one thing in the article -- the article states that married Hindu women wear the bindi. I left that there for now, but I think that statement confuses the bindi on the forehead with the application of red to the parting of the hair that symbolizes marriage.

I'm wondering if we should also add something re the smudge of red that is put on your forehead when you visit a Hindu temple and receive prasad. It's a smudge, not a neat bindi, but it's same place, same color in many cases ... related? Name for this? Comments welcome -- I'm not Hindu, so I'm probably ignorant of the fine points. Zora 21:45, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

 * That's a Teeka, or a tilak,Haphar 11:11, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I have suitably modified the wikilink.Same reasoning -- Hindu & Dharma are both English words and therefore can be used in an English Wikipedia.-Bharatveer 04:16, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

 * However, yet again, you have not shown that the term "Hindu Dharma", referring to Hinduism, is more common than the English language word "Hinduism". Please don't repeat the things about "Hindu" and "Dharma" (2 separate words) being present in the dictionary, your own references show Dharma to refer to a separate concept than to be an exclusive synonym for "Religion". In other words, once you show "Hindu Dharma" a common, widely used replacement for the English word "Hinduism", revert to that. Until you do so, please refrain from doing the same thing again and again. I have shown the relevant numbers regarding common usage. Thanks. --Ragib 05:41, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * User Ragib, Pls peruse Common Sense.-Bharatveer 06:34, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Resorting to personal attacks again? Replying with an argument would have been easier. Again, you have failed to show any answer to my question: is "Hindu Dharma" a synonym for "Hinduism", and is it more common than the English language word "Hinduism". Please don't revert until you answer this. Finding the word "Dharma" in a dictionary isn't really an answer, as your own reference shows it to allude to a concept rather than be the sole synonym for religion. Thank you. --Ragib 06:36, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Bharatveer, this is simply too much. Reverting on whim without bothering to show an argument, and gaming the WP:3RR is too much. Please do show an argument for your position before making such unexplained "rv to previous versions"-type reverts. Also, answer my questions rather than your comments on me. Thanks. --Ragib 06:40, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

 * user:ragib, Pls stop making false accusations. Where did I attack you personally? Hindu Dharma is the more correct term and there is no rule in wikipedia which says that a less common usage word should not be used.You have made a rather "strange" accusation of "gaming" the system on me, when you are the one who is doing that with the support of your cronies.-Bharatveer 06:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Your replies to normal, polite questions are examples. And as for reverts, the history of this article is an example. Thanks. --Ragib 06:54, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Bharatveer has just broken 3RR. I have reported him to AN/3RR. I've also posted a note in WP:ANB for comments from other editors. Thanks. --Ragib 07:36, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

 * No Ragib.You are wrong and You know that.-Bharatveer 07:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

My opinion -- there's no question it should be: "Some Westerners who have converted to Hinduism..." in terms of common usage. I think it's most clear for all users. User:Ryulong who reverted seems to agree also in his edit summary. Perhaps an RfC would be best to clarify. Also, Bharatveer, tone down the superfluous commentary that's venturing into the range of attacks -- Samir धर्म 15:17, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

 * An RFC for two words? Thats pretty frivolous. Baka man  04:31, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It's been done for less before -- Samir धर्म 05:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The overwhelming consensus, as shown in the WP:ANB thread is that "Hindu Dharma" is not an English phrase for the religion, and not in common usage. Therefore, the matter should end here. Thanks. --Ragib 04:40, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

"Paki Spot"

 * The term "Paki Spot" is horribly racist and shouldn't be used in this article. I'm from Manchester and if anyone did say this it would be because they didn't know what it was actually called (they would get some funny looks from those who are against racism).

 * Everyone would understand what they meant but it's an awful term.--bunnygirlxxx 18:40, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Wikipedia is not censored. Wikipedia neither condones nor condemns anything. It is impartial and objective. Here, the article is merely reporting a term observed in common usage. tgies 08:55, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

 * Any references supporting this needs to be provided. --Ragib 09:02, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

religious bindi
I think it would be nice and maybe helpful if it was added to the article that men in both the Hindu and some Buddhist traditions wear the bindi as well as women. I myself being an ordained Buddhist Priest and former Zen monk have and do wear one for special religious events/practices.

Om System.

 * You were talking about Tilaka, right? --Ragib 06:20, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

The Darjeeling Limited
It is correct that foreign guests on a train in north India would not have a bindi applied by a train attendant (as they are in the 2007 Wes Anderson film The Darjeeling Limited), correct? Badagnani 04:21, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
 * That's not a bindi. 172.163.150.108 (talk) 00:22, 3 November 2009 (UTC)Ayan

 * It's a tilak, and no, a normal train rider would not have one applied. An honored guest in some ceremonial capacity might, however.  FellGleaming (talk) 17:30, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Images added (and removed) by User:Oct11988duh
User:Oct11988duh has been adding his/her own uploaded photos and replacing existing photos from the article. Here are some problems with the photos:
 * Image:Indian Women with Bindi on forehead.jpg - does this image illustrate a Bindi at all? This seems to have the bangles in the foreground as the main theme of the photo. The image does show part of the face of a woman (who does not appear to be Indian), but again, the "Bindi" is hardly visible in the image. What purpose does it serve? Oct1988duh replaced a much better illustrative example of a native Indian woman Image:Indian Woman with bindi.jpg.

 * Any significance of the photo of the child with Bindi?

 * Why was the photo with the Bindi styles removed?

I have reverted his/her changes 3 times and will not edit it today, but I will request the user to justify the above actions. --Ragib (talk) 01:12, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Also, may of the images in the flickr account seems to be scans of magazines, I hardly believe these are actually taken by the uploader. --Ragib (talk) 01:15, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Alternative names of bindi
Many of these apparently refer to a tilak, not a bindi. Does anyone have any comments on this before I delete the relevant entries? Fell Gleaming ( talk ) 01:17, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

BInki?
The term 'binki' is used 16 times in the start of the article, but from then on the term 'bindi' is used. I think this is just an error - am I right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bullestock (talk • contribs) 08:49, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

No historical context
The article continues to rail against alleged "misconceptions" by saying things like "in modern times" etc. But it does not explain anything about historical significance. Why take pains to say "in modern times it is not X/Y/Z" unless it was the case at one time? But the article does not spend any time on this. The article's choice of words and repeatedly insistent tone of smacks of historical revisionism. - 174.46.204.210 (talk) 23:05, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

 * This could be cleared up by moving the "modern times" section to follow the "religious significance" section. I agree that the article seems argumentative or assumes prior knowledge in arguing against supposed misconceptions. I'm going to move the sections now. Probably there will need to be some fine tuning of transitions and eliminating redundancies. — ℜob C. alias  ÀLAROB  14:55, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Rename
Probably this article is what most readers will be looking for, and it be the main article. It should be renamed 'Bindi' and the disambig should be renamed. LaTeeDa (talk) 13:19, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

bottu
would like a different page w/ the title bottu.

it's horribly offensive and dismissive to give a small mention of that word and somehow use bindi as a de facto word.Not everyone in India speaks Urdu/Hindi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.147.224.225 (talk) 21:42, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Nande
I'm from Malaysia, I never knew 'nande' is pejorative until now. What exactly does 'nande' mean? I only know Nandi is the white bull. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 183.171.166.217 (talk) 04:58, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Bindi-Image of woman
There's already a picture of a woman in bindi,i don't think there is a need to keep a pic of another old woman, traditionally in India it is worn among the upper caste Hindu Brahmin woman who are of a different type then the woman in that pic. Also note that the Vedas, Upanishads, Gita were all the works of upper caste Hindus i.e Brahmins, thus it is befetting to keep a photo of a Brahmin woman as a mark of respect for their ancestor works(wearing of Bindi started among Brahmin woman at first),the photo of the woman in red sari at the top is that of an Indian Actress who is a Brahmin Hindu ,thus it is kept there ,i hope u get the point. Rim sim (talk) 05:23, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Nowhere in this article does it mention bindis being exclusive to any particular caste. You'll have to find a more compelling argument to back that up, especially considering the sources explicitly say bindis aren't even exclusive to one religion. Something better than using bogus edit summaries, but is it worth violating your topic ban a second time? Blackguard  08:17, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 09:41, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Red forehead dot in China
For this article to be properly encyclopedic, more investigation is needed to trace the origin and history of the red forehead dot's usage in Chinese culture (it is still painted on the foreheads of Chinese children for certain festivals). Although this is not mentioned in the current version of the article, this is almost certainly a borrowing from Indian culture via the spread of Buddhism. Chinese statues of Buddha often have a dot on the forehead. 173.89.236.187 (talk) 02:19, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

Bindi or Pottu?
Hello, and. Someone seems to have changed page title from Bindi to Pottu, I think the word Pottu is not used outside Tamil Nadu and i can't find Sanskrit "Pottu", while Bindi is common;y used word across most parts of India and Nepal. Please look into this.117.198.244.227 (talk) 16:29, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

This person seems to have moved the page from Bindi to Pottu, claims it's most commonly used word in India but i can't find any source for this. 16:33, 9 June 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.198.244.227 (talk)

"Bindi (decoration" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bindi_(decoration&redirect=no Bindi (decoration] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Utopes (talk / cont) 07:38, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Bindi (decoration)


text:
Kevin Dobson

Kevin Patrick Dobson (March 18, 1943 – September 6, 2020) was an American film and television actor, best known for his roles as Detective Bobby Crocker, the trusted protege of Lt. Theo Kojak (played by Telly Savalas) in the CBS crime drama Kojak (1973–1978), and as M. Patrick "Mack" MacKenzie in the prime time soap opera Knots Landing (1982–1993).

On April 1, 2008, Dobson made his first appearance in the NBC Daytime soap opera Days of Our Lives in the role of Mickey Horton.

Early life
Dobson was born in Jackson Heights, New York, and was of Irish descent. He was one of seven children born to the janitor of a grammar school (Our Lady of Fatima, Jackson Heights) and a stay-at-home mother. Before embarking on an acting career, Dobson worked as a trainman, brakeman, and conductor for the Long Island Rail Road, followed by a few years as a waiter.

Career
After a brief appearance in the 1971 film Klute, and small roles in TV series such as The Mod Squad, Emergency!, and Cannon, Dobson signed a contract with Universal Studios in 1972. It led to his role of Det. Bobby Crocker, Lt. Theo Kojak's young partner, in the TV series Kojak, opposite Telly Savalas. For the role, he had to borrow a suit. He had twice auditioned and failed, then called his agent, telling him, "'Do what you have to do,' so he called in a favor and I read for them [again]. I was a military policeman in the Army, so I knew how to hold a gun and throw somebody against a wall. I got a call [the next night] asking if I'd sign a contract." Dobson auditioned for a third time and finally won the role. He remained with Kojak for its entire five-season run from 1973 to 1978, and later reunited with Savalas for the 1990 TV movie, Kojak: It's Always Something, his character having become an assistant district attorney. They remained friends until Savalas's death from bladder cancer in 1994.

In 1976, Dobson was on Battle of the Network Stars with Savalas (Captain), Adrienne Barbeau, Gary Burghoff, Pat Harrington, Bill Macy, Lee Meriwether, Mackenzie Phillips, Loretta Swit, and Jimmie Walker. In 1978, Dobson played Pete Lomas in the two-part TV movie The Immigrants, based on the novel by Howard Fast.

In 1981, Dobson starred as Det. Jack Shannon, a San Francisco police officer who is a single father, on the CBS series Shannon. However, the show failed to gain substantial ratings and was cancelled after nine episodes. A more successful TV role for Dobson followed in 1982 as M. Patrick "Mack" MacKenzie in the prime-time soap opera Knots Landing, opposite Michele Lee. He joined the show at the beginning of its fourth season in September 1982 and remained in the role until its cancellation in 1993. Dobson won five Soap Opera Digest Awards for his work on the series. He later reunited with his Knots Landing co-stars for a miniseries, Knots Landing: Back to the Cul-de-Sac in 1997, and again in the 2005 non-fiction special Knots Landing Reunion: Together Again.

Dobson also appeared in a number of feature films, most notably the World War II movie Midway (1976) alongside Henry Fonda and Charlton Heston, as Ensign George Gay — a pilot and the sole survivor of Torpedo Squadron Eight from the Aircraft Carrier USS Hornet (CV-8)'s ill-fated opening attack against the Japanese fleet on June 4, 1942. Another prominent role was as Bobby Gibbons, the husband of Cheryl Gibbons (Barbra Streisand) in the 1981 romantic comedy All Night Long. He also had a small role as a priest in the well-received 2007 psychological horror film 1408.

Dobson continued to appear in a number of television roles, including the syndicated F/X: The Series for one season (1996–1997) and the daytime drama series One Life to Live (2003), The Bold and the Beautiful (2006–2007), and Days of Our Lives, where he was the fourth and final actor to play original character Mickey Horton. He featured in 15 episodes of the show from April to October 2008. The character then left with no explanation, before being "killed off" in January 2010. Although Mickey is best remembered for being portrayed by veteran soap actor John Clarke for almost 40 years, Dobson instead appeared as Mickey in the character's final appearances in 2008.

Stage roles
Dobson starred in the Tony Award winning play Art at the Royal George Theater in Chicago. He originated the role of Steve Gallop in the world premiere of the American Theatre Critics Association nominated stage play "If it was Easy..." at The 7Stages Theater in Atlanta, Georgia, and appeared in many other stage roles across the United States.

He starred with Richard Thomas in the 2009 stage production of 12 Angry Men. Dobson stated, concerning actors who are afraid of being typecast, "You should be so lucky."

Affiliations
Dobson, a former Army soldier (MP), served twice as chairman of the National Salute To Hospitalized Veterans. Having long assisted with the needs of hospitalized veterans, Dobson received the AMVETS (American Veterans) Silver Helmet Peace Award and the American Legion Award. Dobson, was a life member of AMVETS and also a charter member of AMVETS MOH Richard A. Pittman Post #1947 - Stockton, California.

Personal life and death
Dobson married his wife, Susan, in 1968. They had three children: Mariah, Patrick and Sean. He was the chairman of the United Veterans Council of San Joaquin County (UVCSJC). Dobson died after struggling with an autoimmune deficiency on September 6, 2020, in Stockton, California. UVCSJC reported his death the following day. He was 77.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Kevin Dobson


text:
User talk:Chocolateboy/MadonnaFan

MadonnaFan
Why did you change my information on the Madonna page? they are all actual figures from The Guiness Book of World Records, Warner Bros. Records, www.madonna.com, Billboard archives, etc.!!!!! What are YOUR sources?????????????? MadonnaFan

 * You destroyed the page: look at the state it was in after your edits. I reverted to the last version prior to your snipping spree. Also: if they're real figures, it should be easy to provide links, something you consistently refused to do on the talk page. Thirdly, most of the stuff you added doesn't belong in the trivia section, as Hadal pointed out here. Finally: I suggest you read the welcome link Hadal posted on your talk page, particularly the sections regarding Wikipedia etiquette, or you're likely to find your stay here brief and unrewarding.

 * chocolateboy 21:32, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have updated the Madonna page with a "Fun Facts" section with some of my info. (because it, was according to you, not appropriate for the trivia section) and listed my sources in the Discussion section, PLEASE don't delete it! MadonnaFan

 * Please reply here, rather than starting a new section at the bottom of the page.

 * As Hadal mentioned, those stats should be integrated into the body of the article if possible. ("Fun Facts" is redundant as it's a synonym for "Trivia".) Citing the specific source for each "fact" would also be helpful. Surely it's not that difficult to copy the URL of the page on madonna.com, absolutemadonna.com, go.to/Madonna or billboard.com that provided each "fun fact" as you have done for Guinness World Records, which is appreciated.

 * You can cite each source by appending the URL in square brackets like this:

 * According to Guinness World Records, Madonna is the most successful female artist of all time.

 * chocolateboy 06:26, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I posted all my sources!

But since you can't copy exact adresses from madonna's website, I had to scramble to find other sources... MadonnaFan

 * Response here.

 * chocolateboy 17:16, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

About the Janet Jackson fact on the Madonna page..

Janet Jackson recieved more #1's on the dance chart with her last album, but I don't know how many exactly, 1 or 2 I think so don't change it! Its not 14 ;)

Also, quit changing my Maverick Records sentence, it sounds better my way and it makes more sense since I say "...has generated mor money than..." before the end ;)  MadonnaFan

 * Hello again.

 * It's customary to indent replies with colons rather than asterisks.

 * Thanks for the Janet Jackson heads up, though please take care not to remove links without a good justification (e.g. if the link is a duplicate). You can explain your reasoning in the edit summary or on the talk page. I'm also restoring "nearest rival": it avoids the telegraphese of "2nd place Janet Jackson", and it makes her sound like a human being rather than a racehorse.

 * quit changing my Maverick Records sentence

 * If you really want to spend your time quibbling over aesthetics rather than fact-checking and adding content to the article, you'll find that those two smileys are much more disarming and persuasive than incivility could ever hope to be. Why don't you play to your strengths (Madonna facts and figures) and I'll play to mine (copyediting)? Your edits and posts here, in the article and on other talk pages show that attention to stylistic detail is not really your forté ;)

 * Still: I don't know what beef we're supposed to have over the Maverick Records sentence: it's fine as it currently stands.

 * chocolateboy 06:45, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well I changed it again, that's why it's fine ;) And Janet IS 2nd place for the record but that's fine... And maybe I thought the style was wrong ;) Anyway, thanks...

 * Hi.

 * Well I changed it again, that's why it's fine ;)

 * Yes, but you reinstated my fix, so I fail to see why you felt the need to pick a fight over it.

 * And Janet IS 2nd place for the record but that's fine...

 * Of course she's in "2nd place". That's what "nearest rival" to "the most successful dance artist" means. The dispute wasn't over the position; it was over the wording.

 * Anyway, thanks...

 * You're welcome! :-)

 * chocolateboy 10:56, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Alright, Madonna's 165 million albums is her LOW-END and most popular estimate, and 75 million singles is the most accurate estimate. But early This year in a press relase WB Records said she has sold 250 million records world wide (I gave a line to the tour press release) So I'm changing it a little. Also, I'm putting The Guiness Book thing after again since the article in the book discusses not only her sales but her success on the singles chart, and how is gaining the title "The Queen of Pop" not a career achievement? You never hear Mariah called the queen of pop ;) I can post a link to an article(s) refering to her as such if you like.

Anyway, thanks, the pest lol. MadonnaFan 18:40, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Hey.

 * I don't understand why you keep indenting your replies. I thought I covered the "threaded discussion" thing in detail here. Note that if you're using a PC, you can (and should :-) hit  to preview a page before saving it.

 * I'm changing it a little.

 * I appreciate you correcting the figure, but I merged various sales statistics into one compact prose paragraph. You separated them again without saying why in the edit summary (another thing I mentioned on your talk page). You do realize that by pulverizing the career achievement section into dry bullet points, you're making it less, not more, easy to read? Take a step back and look at the list with the eye of a casual reader. The bottom half is readable prose; the top-half is fine as reference material, but is no more readable than the various 'ographies below it.

 * Also, I'm putting The Guiness Book thing after again since the article in the book discusses not only her sales but her success on the singles chart

 * That doesn't explain why you moved the paragraph down. I placed it at the top because it effectively summarizes all the other achievements, and thus is the obvious intro. It's also prose rather than yet another dry statistic; frontloading it makes the section easier on the eye. Could you explain again why you moved it down?

 * how is gaining the title "The Queen of Pop" not a career achievement

 * A nickname isn't a career achievement. Everything else in that section relates to sales, so it's a complete non sequitur there. I moved it to the trivia section. (It's also mentioned in the intro.)

 * Why don't you concentrate on adding more material - the two paragraphs you added are (as always) excellent - rather than contesting every little copyedit?

 * chocolateboy 20:42, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I moved the Guiness Book thing to after all of the sales and chart info because the article discusses how Madonna is #1 because of sales AND chart success, and it sums up my ramblings quite nicely and introduces the accolades she has accumulated.

I'm just a neat freak in general and obsess over my work/projects and everything I do has to be perfect. I'm sorry if I'm trying to do your job as well, I just have OCD and am anal retentive. MadonnaFan 06:07, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * it sums up my ramblings quite nicely and introduces the accolades she has accumulated

 * Introductions usually go at the beginning... Better to start with the biggest bang of the whole list, than to hide it away in the section's nether reaches.

 * I just have OCD and am anal retentive.

 * Join the club ;-) Thanks for improving the article!

 * chocolateboy 08:20, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Alright! What's up? MadonnaFan 21:09, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Aw nothin'. Just imbibing a bud. You? chocolateboy 21:36, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I meant with the crazy Céline fan who deleted my information! lol. MadonnaFan 00:09, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * I've explained it to you in excruciating detail. I've asked you nicely. I've even tried irony. None of these techniques have worked. For the last time: please. stop. indenting. your. comments. in. this. thread.

 * As for the "crazy" Céline Dion fan... a) it's not your article, contrary to your assertion here; and b) What about him or her? I'm not into religious Céline Dion vs Madonna wars. (I'm far too preoccupied by the Ashlee Simpson vs "notability" war :-) Nor am I into being mean to newcomers or incivility.

 * chocolateboy 01:55, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I was just messing with the guy ;-) MadonnaFan 00:35, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:Chocolateboy/MadonnaFan


text:
Grimeton Radio Station

Grimeton Radio Station in southern Sweden, close to Varberg in Halland, is an early longwave transatlantic wireless telegraphy station built in 1922–1924, that has been preserved as a historical site. From the 1920s through the 1940s it was used to transmit telegram traffic by Morse code to North America and other countries, and during World War II was Sweden's only telecommunication link with the rest of the world. It is the only remaining example of an early pre-electronic radio transmitter technology called an Alexanderson alternator. It was added to the UNESCO World Heritage List in 2004, with the statement: "Grimeton Radio Station, Varberg is an exceptionally well preserved example of a type of telecommunication centre, representing the technological achievements by the early 1920s, as well as documenting the further development over some three decades." The radio station is also an anchor site for the European Route of Industrial Heritage. The transmitter is still in operational condition, and each year on a day called Alexanderson Day is started up and transmits brief Morse code test transmissions, which can be received all over Europe.

History
Beginning around 1910 industrial countries built networks of powerful transoceanic longwave radiotelegraphy stations to communicate telegraphically with other countries. During the First World War radio became a strategic technology when it was realized that a nation without long-distance radio capability could be isolated from the rest of the world by an enemy cutting its submarine telegraph cables. Sweden's geographical dependence on other countries' underwater cable networks, and the temporary loss of those vital connections during the war, motivated a decision in 1920 by the Swedish Parliament that the Royal Telegraph Agency build a "big radiotelegraphy station" in Sweden to transmit telegram traffic across the Atlantic.

At the time, there were several different technologies used for high power radio transmission, each owned by a different giant industrial company. Bids were requested from Telefunken in Berlin, The Marconi Company in London, Radio Corporation of America (RCA) in New York and Société Française Radio-Electrique in Paris. The transmitter chosen was the 200 kW version of the Alexanderson alternator, invented by Swedish-American Ernst Alexanderson, manufactured by General Electric and marketed by their subsidiary RCA. This consisted of a huge rotating electromechanical AC generator (alternator) turned by an electric motor at a fast enough speed that it generated radio frequency alternating current, which was applied to the antenna. It was one of the first transmitters to generate sinusoidal continuous waves, which could communicate at longer range than the damped waves which were used by the earlier spark gap transmitters. The alternator was chosen because it was already used in most other transatlantic radio stations, reducing potential compatibility problems. The fact that it was designed by a Swede may have also played a part.

After careful calculations, the station was located in Grimeton, on the southwest coast of Sweden nearest North America, which allowed good radio wave propagation conditions over the North Atlantic to America, and also Norway, Denmark, and Scotland. The site was purchased in autumn 1922, construction began by the end of the year, and the station was finished in 1924. Two 200 kilowatt Alexanderson alternators were installed, to allow maintenance to be performed on one without interrupting radio traffic. To achieve daytime communication over such long distances, transoceanic stations took advantage of an earth-ionosphere waveguide mechanism which required them to transmit at frequencies in the very low frequency (VLF) range below 30 kHz. Radio transmitters required extremely large antennas to radiate these long waves efficiently. The Grimeton station had a huge multiply-tuned flattop antenna 1.9 km (1.2 miles) long consisting of twelve (later reduced to eight) wires supported on six 127 m (380 foot) high steel towers, fed at one end by vertical feeder wires extending up from the transmitter building. The station started operation in 1924, transmitting radiotelegraphy traffic with the callsign SAQ on a wavelength of about 18000 m, later changed to 17442 m, to RCA's Radio Central receivers on Long Island, New York. It immediately took over 95% of the Swedish telegram traffic to the United States.

The Alexanderson alternator technology was becoming obsolete even as it was installed. Vacuum tube electronic oscillator transmitters, which used the triode vacuum tube invented by Lee De Forest in 1907, replaced most pre-electronic transmitters in the early 1920s. However the large capital investment in an alternator transmitter caused owners to keep these huge behemoths in use long after they were technologically obsolete. By the mid-1930s most transatlantic communication had switched to short waves, and, beginning in 1938, vacuum tube shortwave transmitters were installed in the main building, using dipole and rhombic antennas in a neighbouring field. The Alexanderson alternator found a second use as a naval transmitter to communicate with submarines, as VLF frequencies can penetrate a short distance into seawater.

During the Second World War 1939–1945, the station experienced a heyday, when it was one of Scandinavia's gateways to the outside world. Underwater communication cable connections had once again been quickly severed by nations at war and the radiotelegraphy transmissions were a link to the outside world. Several new transmitters were therefore added to the station. As users during the war included the Swedish Ministry for Foreign Affairs and various embassies and legations, the radio station’s transmissions were subject to interception by signals intelligence operations such as the British Y service.

Following the war, additional transmitters were installed and the number of destinations increased, reaching a peak in the 1950s when the station operated twelve shortwave transmitters and one electronic longwave transmitter (as well as the original Alexanderson system), maintaining traffic to some twenty different countries in Europe, Asia and the Americas. By that point, the telegraphic transmissions had shifted from Morse code to radioteletype and the station also provided radiofax and radiotelephony services.

Starting in the 1960s, many of the transmitters were beginning show their age and were subsequently decommissioned. However, rather than repurposing the original station building, a new facility was built to house new radio equipment and several new antennas were erected from the mid-60s and onwards. These investments were relatively short-lived in their original context as they coincided with the move away from using fixed radio stations for international communications in favour of satellites and new types of cables. Instead, focus would eventually move to long-range maritime radio.

Out of the original system, one of the alternator transmitters had been gradually dismantled and scrapped in the 1950s and 60s to free up space in the station building. The remaining alternator continued to be used for naval transmissions until the early 1990s, when a modern solid-state LF transmitter replaced it.

Grimeton Radio Station is now the only station left in the transatlantic network of nine long wave stations that were built during the years 1918–1924, all equipped with Alexanderson alternators. In 2004 it was added to the UNESCO World Heritage List. The Grimeton transmitter is the last surviving example of an Alexanderson alternator, the only radio station left from the pre-vacuum tube era, and is still in working condition. Each year, on a day called Alexanderson Day, either on the last Sunday in June, or on the first Sunday in July, whichever comes closer to 2 July, the site holds an open house during which the transmitter is started up and transmits test messages on 17.2 kHz using its call sign SAQ, which can be received all over Europe.

Technical description

The electromechanical transmitter in Grimeton transmitted at a frequency of 17.2 kHz, i.e. in the VLF range, and was thus able to reach America.

In principle, an electric generator (A) is used for this purpose. This is set in rotation by a motor (500 HP, 711.3 rpm) via a gearbox (setup ratio: 2.97) and thus generates a continuous sinusoidal AC voltage (B) of 17.2 kHz or 17,200 Hz.

For comparison, generators of the public electricity networks produce an alternating voltage of 50 or 60 Hz, depending on the country. To produce such high frequencies with a generator, a fast-rotating generator (2115 revolutions per minute) with a special design is necessary.

In Grimeton, mainly Morse signals were transmitted. To send information with the generated alternating voltage, the texts to be sent are translated into a sequence of short and long pulses according to the Morse code by means of a Morse key (D). The switchgear (C) uses these pulses to control the transmission of the AC voltage to the antenna (F). When the key is pressed, the AC voltage is passed on to the antenna and transmitted from there. If the key is not pressed, the AC voltage is suppressed by the switchgear and no signal is transmitted. Thus, for example, as shown in (E), the letter A can be transmitted by a short and a long wave packet and detected at the receiver.

The AC voltage generated has a voltage of 2000 volts and a power of 200 kW (although these days it is usually limited to about 80 kW). Such strong signals cannot be switched on and off by a simple switch, it would cause considerable sparking. In Grimeton, a different effect was used for this purpose.

As known from historical radios, the antenna and the adjacent coils and capacitors form an resonant circuit, which must be tuned to the desired frequency so that the energy is optimally transmitted. In Grimeton, the tuning of this oscillating circuit is now disturbed in the switchgear (C) when the Morse key is not pressed, thus suppressing transmission. Thus it is possible to influence an AC power of 200kW with a small power (3 kW DC).

The antenna resonant circuit essentially consists of the antenna (I), a transformer (D) and a magnetic amplifier (G).

As usual in electric generators, an alternating voltage is generated in adjacent coils (B) in the generator (A) by means of rotating magnetic fields. In Grimeton, these coils are mounted on the stator, divided into 2x32 sectors, on both sides to the rotor. The individual windings of a sector are connected to corresponding primary windings (C) of the transformer (D). When the primary voltages are transmitted to the secondary winding (E) of the transformer, these voltages are superimposed to form a strong, sinusoidal output signal which is output to the antenna and transmitted.

The control winding (F) and the magnetic amplifier (G) are responsible for controlling the transmission process by the Morse key (H). The magnetic amplifier is an arrangement of coils and capacitors whose AC resistance is indirectly influenced by the Morse key and a DC source. When the Morse key is open, the solenoid amplifier short-circuits the control winding (F), to put it simply. The short-circuiting of (F) disturbs the transmitting oscillating circuit, so that finally no more than 9 % of the normal antenna current flows [2, page 53]. The situation described above (full transmit or no transmit at all) can therefore only be achieved approximately, but this is sufficient in practice.

In order to achieve the necessary transmission frequency, the generator of the Alexanderson alternator type must not only rotate quickly, but it also needs a special construction with many magnetic poles. For this purpose, the steel, and thus magnetizable rotor disk (A) is provided at the edge with 488 slots (B), which are filled with a non-magnetic material. By means of the coils (D), a continuous magnetic field (E) is generated in the stator by means of direct current, in which the coils (C) are also located. Due to the rotating rotor disk, this magnetic field between the coils (C) is alternately reinforced by the steel disk and the non-magnetic slots are damped. This cyclically changing magnetic field induces a sinusoidal voltage in the coils (C).

The above sketch is not to scale, the air gap between rotor and stator frame is only 1mm wide. The rotor is a steel disc measuring 1.6 m in diameter and approximately 7.5 cm thick at the periphery.

Antenna system
To achieve maximum range, like other transoceanic radiotelegraphy stations of this era it transmitted in the VLF band, at a frequency of 17.2 kilohertz and so the wavelength is approximately 17442 meters. Even though the antenna is approximately 2 km long, it is short compared with the wavelength and so it is not very efficient.

The antenna system consists of antenna wires supported by masts, such as those used for high-voltage power lines. The six antenna masts each have a 46m cross-arm at the top and are 127m high. Today they carry 8 antenna conductors although originally there were 12.

The multiple-tuned antenna used at Grimeton is a pre-WW1 invention by E F W Alexanderson, which uses a number of vertical radiator wires interconnected by the flat-top wires, which serve both as top capacitance and as a high-voltage transmission line.

Each vertical wire is terminated in a ground-mounted tuning inductance (or "coil") which serves to tune out the capacitive reactance of the wire, and to establish the proper phase relationship between the currents in the wires.

By dividing the total current flowing into the ground or counterpoise system between several connection points, the equivalent ground loss resistance may be substantially reduced compared to the case when all current is fed into a single vertical radiator.

This increases the antenna efficiency with about an order of magnitude.

title: Grimeton Radio Station


text:
User:Joséwell

User page for Joséwell.

Interested in politics, geography, history.

title: User:Joséwell


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IBM 3850

The IBM 3850 Mass Storage System (MSS) was an online tape library used to hold large amounts of infrequently accessed data. It was one of the earliest examples of nearline storage.

History
Starting in the late-1960s IBM's lab in Boulder, Colorado began development of a low-cost mass storage system based on magnetic tape cartridges. The tapes would be accessed automatically by a robot (known as an accessor) and fed into a reader/writer unit that could work on several tapes at the same time. Originally the system was going to be used as a directly attached memory device, but as the speed of computers grew in relation to the storage, the product was re-purposed as an automated system that would offload little-used data from hard disk systems. Known internally as Comanche while under development, IBM management found a number of niche uses for the concept, and announced it officially as the IBM 3850 on October 9, 1974. After more than a decade (comparable to the IBM 2321 Data Cell, 1964–1975), it was withdrawn August 5, 1986.

Description

The Mass Storage System consisted of a library of cylindrical plastic cartridges, two inches wide and 4 in long, each holding a spool of tape 770 in long storing 50 MB; each virtual disk required a pair of cartridges. These cartridges were held in a hexagonal array of bins in the IBM 3851 Mass Storage Facility. New cartridges were rolled into the facility and were automatically stored in a vacant bin. The data were accessed via virtual IBM 3330 disk drives, and physically cached on a combination of 3330 and 3350 staging drives, the data being transferred automatically between cartridge and disk drive in processes called staging and destaging. These were all connected together with the IBM 3830 Storage Control (also used for disk storage alone), the entire system making up a 3850 unit.

Cartridges were moved into and out of read stations by two motorized accessor arms, electrically connected via flat cable on a drum. Stage time for data from cartridge to disk was typically 15 seconds, including about two seconds to move the cartridge into a read station, and eight to ten seconds to read the 200-foot tape.

The recording method was unusual for its time. The drive pulled the tape from the cartridge and wound it once around a cylindrical mandrel in a helix, then stopped the tape. The drive's head, mounted on a rotating drum, then rotated once to read or record a diagonal track. The drive then wound the tape a small step forward and the head rotated to do the next track. Depending on technical definitions this might be even considered a first example of a digital helical scan recording, long before Exabyte's helical drive (which was based on analog video helical recording systems developed earlier).

When free disk space was required a group of cylinders were selected to be destaged to tape, these were transferred with minimal or no change of format. Each tape could store 202 cylinder images of 19 tracks each, half of the 404 cylinders in a 3330 disk pack. Cylinder locations on the tape were fixed and identified by markers along the edge.

Models
Several models of the 3851 were available. The smallest A1 holding 706 cartridges storing 35.3GB, while the largest A4 held 4,720 cartridges storing 236GB in a 20 ft long unit. All of the units were also available in the "B models" which added a second controller for on-line backups, as well as offline storage. A second series was released on March 6, 1980, doubling maximum capacity to 472GB. The entire series was discontinued on August 5, 1986.

title: IBM 3850