text:
List of Cypriots

The following is a list of Cypriots notable enough to have their own article. They are sorted by field, then by surname (both in alphabetical order).

Academics and scientists

 * Demis Hassabis (born 1976), Computer Scientist. Chief Executive Officer and co-founder of DeepMind
 * Kyriacos A. Athanasiou (born 1960), biomedical engineer
 * Mehmet Aziz (1893–1991), medical doctor credited with eradicating malaria in Cyprus
 * Ulus Baker (1960–2007), sociologist
 * Niyazi Berkes (1908–1988), sociologist
 * Gülsen Bozkurt (born 1950), haematologist
 * Mustafa Camgöz (born 1952), professor of cancer biology at Imperial College London
 * Mehmet Çakıcı (born 1966), psychiatrist
 * Anastasios Christodoulou (1932–2002), foundation secretary of the Open University
 * Andreas Demetriou (born 1950), developmental psychologist and former Minister of Education and Culture of Cyprus
 * Eleftherios Diamandis (born 1952), professor of clinical biochemistry at the University of Toronto
 * Nicos Kartakoullis (born 1967), professor at the University of Nicosia
 * Niyazi Kızılyürek (born 1959), political scientist and MEP
 * Kyriacos C. Markides (born 1942), professor of sociology and author
 * Kypros Nicolaides (born 1953), obstetrician
 * Kyriacos Costa Nicolaou (born 1946), chemist
 * C. L. Max Nikias (born 1952), president of the University of Southern California in Los Angeles
 * Andreas G. Orphanides (born 1955), Professor and former Rector European University Cyprus
 * Athanasios Orphanides (born 1962), economist
 * Kamil Özerk (born 1954), pedagogue
 * Panikos Panayi (born 1962), professor, academic, historian and author De Montfort University
 * Irena Papadopoulos, head of transcultural studies in health at Middlesex University
 * Costas N. Papanicolas (born 1950), nuclear physicist and former president of The Cyprus Institute
 * Christopher A. Pissarides (born 1948), economist, Nobel laureate
 * Andreas Pitsillides (born 1977), theologian
 * Sophocles Sophocleous, art historian
 * Symeon C. Symeonides (born 1949), dean of the Willamette University College of Law
 * Chris Toumazou (born 1961), electronic engineer and Regius Professor of engineering at Imperial College London
 * Andrekos Varnava (born 1979), professor, academic, historian and author Flinders University
 * Marius Vassiliou (born 1957), computational physicist and research executive
 * Vamık Volkan (born 1932), psychiatrist and author
 * Panayiotis Zavos (born 1944), geneticist

Actors

 * Zeki Alasya, actor
 * Angie Bowie, actress, personality
 * Feri Cansel, erotic actress
 * Jamie Demetriou, actor
 * Natasia Demetriou, actress,  What We Do in the Shadows, Stath Lets Flats
 * Hazar Ergüçlü, actress, The Wild Pear Tree, Medcezir
 * Dimitri Leonidas, actor, Sinbad, Tormented
 * Georgina Leonidas, actress, The Basil Brush Show, Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows – Part 2
 * Stephanie Leonidas, actress, Defiance, Atlantis: End of a World, Birth of a Legend
 * Sotiris Moustakas (1940–2007), Greek/Cypriot comedy actor
 * Ada Nicodemou (born 1977), actress, Home and Away
 * Hal Ozsan, actor, Dawson's Creek, Kyle XY
 * Peter Polycarpou, actor

Business

 * John Christodoulou, property developer
 * Suat Günsel, billionaire
 * Stelios Haji-Ioannou, entrepreneur, owner of EasyGroup
 * Dakis Joannou, J&P
 * Lycourgos Kyprianou, former chairman of GlobalSoft and AremisSoft Corp
 * Anastasios George Leventis, founder and owner of Leventis Group
 * Asil Nadir, former chief executive of Polly Peck
 * Theo Paphitis, entrepreneur and former chairman of Millwall Football Club
 * George Paraskevaides, philanthropist and businessman
 * Panos Panay, entrepreneur, executive and president of The Recording Academy
 * Roys Poyiadjis, former co-chief executive officer of AremisSoft
 * Reo Stakis, hotel and casino owner
 * Andreas Panayiotou, businessman and property developer

Film

 * Michael Cacoyannis, filmmaker
 * Panicos Chrysanthou, filmmaker and documentarian
 * Derviş Zaim, novelist and filmmaker
 * Haris Zambarloukos, cinematographer

Historical figures

 * Acesas (around 5th century BC), ancient artist, famed weaver
 * Andromachus of Cyprus, admiral of Alexander the Great
 * Grigoris Afxentiou, member of EOKA
 * Altheides, philosopher
 * St Barnabas (1st century), apostolic father, early missionary
 * Caterina Cornaro, Queen of Cyprus
 * Charlotte of Cyprus, Queen of Cyprus
 * Clearchus of Soli (4th-3rd century BC), Cyprus-born Greek philosopher of the Peripatetic school
 * Evagoras, king of Salamis (410-374 BC)
 * Henry I of Cyprus, King of Cyprus
 * Hugh I of Cyprus, King of Cyprus
 * Hugh II of Cyprus, King of Cyprus
 * Hugh III of Cyprus, King of Cyprus
 * Hugh IV of Cyprus, King of Cyprus
 * James I of Cyprus, King of Cyprus
 * James II of Cyprus, King of Cyprus
 * James III of Cyprus, King of Cyprus
 * Janus of Cyprus, King of Cyprus
 * John II of Cyprus, King of Cyprus
 * Michalis Karaolis, member of EOKA
 * Stefano Lusignan, writer
 * Leontios Makhairas, historian
 * Kyriakos Matsis, member of EOKA
 * Nicocreon (4th century BC-before 306 BC), king of Salamis
 * Evagoras Pallikarides, member of EOKA
 * Abu Bekr Pasha
 * Kıbrıslı Mehmed Emin Pasha, Grand Vizier
 * Kıbrıslı Mehmed Kamil Pasha (born 1883), Grand Vizier
 * Persaeus of Citium (306-243 BC), Stoic philosopher
 * Peter I of Cyprus, King of Cyprus
 * Peter II of Cyprus, King of Cyprus
 * Sergius Paulus (1st century), proconsul of Cyprus
 * Stasanor (lived 4th century BC), Cyprus-born Greek officer of Alexander the Great, later satrap of Drangiana, Bactria, and Sogdiana
 * Stasinus (~7th century BC), one of the first European poets, a semi-legendary early Greek poet, author of the epic poem "Cypria", related to the Trojan War
 * Theodora (around 500–548), empress of Byzantine empire (527–548)
 * Zeno of Citium (333-264 BC), Cyprus-born Greek philosopher, founder of Stoicism

Jurists

 * Alecos Markides
 * Solon Nikitas (1937–2005), judge and jurist, Supreme Court (1988–2003), Attorney-General (2003–2005)

Musicians

 * Ivi Adamou, singer (The X Factor), represented Cyprus in the 2012 Eurovision Song Contest
 * Peter Andre, singer
 * Marlen Aggelidou, singer
 * Lisa Andreas, singer
 * Aris Antoniades, composer
 * Nil Burak, singer
 * Konstantinos Christoforou, singer
 * Kemal Cetinay, singer and TV personality
 * Philippos Constantinos, singer (in One)
 * Tulisa Contostavlos, singer
 * Diam's, singer, rapper
 * Nicolas Economou, composer
 * Eleftheria Eleftheriou, singer (The X Factor), represents Greece in the 2012 Eurovision Song Contest
 * Elpida, Greek singer, sang for Cyprus in the 1986 Eurovision Song Contest
 * Barry Evangeli, music producer
 * Evridiki, singer
 * Michalis Hatzigiannis, singer
 * Savvas Houvartas, guitarist, songwriter
 * Alkinoos Ioannidis, singer
 * George Kallis, composer
 * Fikri Karayel, singer-songwriter
 * Mick Karn, musician from the rock band Japan
 * Yannis Kyriakides, composer
 * Andreas G. Orphanides, composer
 * Cyprien Katsaris, French-Cypriot pianist
 * Maria Elena Kiriakou, singer, winner of the first season of The Voice of Greece
 * Stelios Konstantas, singer
 * Stavros Konstantinou, singer
 * George Michael, singer
 * Stavros Michalakakos, singer, winner of Greece's X-Factor II
 * Despina Olympiou, singer, represents Cyprus in the 2013 Eurovision Song Contest
 * Alex Panayi, singer-songwriter
 * Elena Patroklou, singer (Greek-Cypriot parents)
 * Aristos Petrou, rapper
 * Marianda Pieridi, singer
 * Nikki Ponte, singer (X-Factor)
 * Ziynet Sali (born 1975), singer
 * Sarbel, British-born Greek singer
 * Savvas Savva, composer, pianist
 * Cat Stevens, British singer-songwriter and multi-instrumentalist; Cypriot father
 * Rüya Taner, pianist
 * Georges Theofanous, composer (Greece)
 * Martino Tirimo, Cypriot pianist, born in Larnaca, Cyprus
 * Marios Tokas, singer, composer
 * Okan Ersan, guitarist
 * Mihalis Violaris, singer, composer
 * Anna Vissi, singer
 * Lia Vissi, singer (older sister of Anna Vissi)
 * Loucas Yiorkas, singer, The X Factor winner 2009, represents Greece in the 2011 Eurovision Song Contest
 * Andrew Lambrou, represents Cyprus in the 2023 Eurovision Song Contest

Mythical figures

 * Anaxarete, legendary Cypriot maiden in Greek mythology
 * Iphis see Anaxarete
 * Aphrodite, Goddess of Love
 * Pygmalion, legendary king of Cyprus in Greek mythology

Political figures

 * Adamos Adamou, MEP
 * Mustafa Akıncı, President of Northern Cyprus (2015–present)
 * Nicos Anastasiades, President of the Republic of Cyprus (2013–2023)
 * Praxoula Antoniadou, Acting President of the United Democrats
 * Mustafa Çağatay, Prime Minister of Northern Cyprus (1978–1983)
 * Reşat Çağlar, diplomat
 * Dimitris Christofias, former president of Cyprus (2008–2013)
 * Kypros Chrysostomides, politician
 * Katherine Clerides, former politician, peace activist
 * Panayiotis Demetriou, MEP
 * Rauf Denktaş, first President of Northern Cyprus
 * Derviş Eroğlu, long-time prime minister and president of Northern Cyprus (2010–2015)
 * Kutlay Erk, the former mayor of the Nicosia Turkish Municipality
 * Alexis Galanos, Mayor of Famagusta and former president of the House of Representatives
 * Marios Garoyian, President of the House of Representatives
 * Polycarpos Georgadjis, politician and member of EOKA
 * Takis Hadjigeorgiou, MEP
 * Mehmet Harmancı, mayor of North Nicosia
 * Georgios Iacovou, politician
 * Androulla Kaminara (born 1957), European official and EU ambassador
 * Ioannis Kasoulidis, MEP
 * Petros Kestoras, diplomat
 * Glafkos Klerides, President of the Republic of Cyprus (1993–2003)
 * Giannos Kranidiotis, politician
 * Fazıl Küçük, first Turkish Cypriot vice president of the Republic of Cyprus
 * Markos Kyprianou, former Minister of Foreign Affairs, formerly Finance Minister and former European Commissioner for Health
 * Spyros Kyprianou, president (1977–1988)
 * Georgios Ladas, former president of the House of Representatives
 * Yiorgos Lillikas, politician
 * Vassos Lyssarides, founder of EDEK and former president of the House of Representatives
 * Averof Neofytou, leader of DISY (2013–present)
 * Makarios III, archbishop, president (1960–1977)
 * Niyazi Manyera, medical doctor, politician and the first Minister of Health of the Republic of Cyprus
 * Marios Matsakis, former MEP
 * Yiannakis Matsis, former MEP
 * Eleni Mavrou, former Mayor of Nicosia (2006–2011)
 * Alekos Michaelides, former Foreign Minister and President of the House of Representatives
 * Andreas Moleskis, senior civil servant
 * Özkan Murat, politician
 * Osman Örek, Prime Minister of Northern Cyprus (1978)
 * Kudret Özersay, politician, first leader of #Toparlanıyoruz Movement and founder of Halkın Partisi
 * Hüseyin Özgürgün, Prime Minister of Northern Cyprus
 * Canan Öztoprak, politician
 * Leonidas Pantelides, former Ambassador of Cyprus to Russia
 * Tassos Papadopoulos, president (2003–2008)
 * Ezekias Papaioannou, Secretary General of AKEL (1949–1988)
 * Michalis Papapetrou, politician and diplomat
 * Nikos Sampson, de facto president of the Cyprus Republic after the 1974 coup d'état
 * Benon Sevan, ex-head of UN Oil for Food program
 * Ploutis Servas, first Secretary General of AKEL
 * Ferdi Sabit Soyer, politician
 * Sibel Siber, first female prime minister of Northern Cyprus
 * Kostas Themistocleous, politician
 * Kyriacos Triantaphyllides, MEP
 * Alparslan Türkeş, leading Turkish politician
 * Salih Usar, Minister of Public Works and Communications
 * Eşref Vaiz, politician
 * Androulla Vasiliou, European Commissioner for Education, Culture, Multilingualism and Youth
 * George Vasiliou, president and founder of Cypriot United Democrats party (1988–1993)

Religious figures

 * Arkadios II, Archbishop (630s–643)
 * Archbishop Chrysostomos I of Cyprus, Archbishop (1977–2006)
 * Archbishop Chrysostomos II of Cyprus, Archbishop (2006–)
 * Barnabas, prominent early Christian disciple. He is traditionally identified as the founder of the Cypriot Orthodox Church. The feast day of Barnabas is celebrated on June 11.
 * Epiphanius of Salamis, Metropolitan of Cyprus (367–403)
 * Gregory II (1241–1290), Patriarch of Constantinople (1283–1289)
 * John the Merciful (7th century), Patriarch of Alexandria
 * Kyprianos, Archbishop (1810–1821)
 * Kyrillos II, Archbishop (1909–1916)
 * Kyrillos III, Archbishop (1916–1933)
 * Leontios of Neapolis (7th century), Bishop of Neapolis and writer
 * Lazarus of Bethany, ordained by Paul and Barnabas as the first Bishop of Kition following his resurrection
 * Makarios I, Archbishop of Cyprus (1854–1865)
 * Makarios II, Archbishop (1947–1950)
 * Makarios III, Archbishop, president (1960–1977)
 * Nazim al-Qubrusi, leader of the Naqshbandi-Haqqani Sufi Order
 * Peter VII (1949–2004), Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africa (1997–2004)
 * Saint Spyridon (ca. 270–348)

Sports

 * Georgios Achilleos, world champion skeet shooter
 * Mete Adanır, footballer
 * Efstathios Aloneftis, football player with APOEL F.C./Cyprus national football team
 * Anastasios Andreou, 1896 Olympian
 * Antonakis Andreou, skeet shooter
 * Eleni Artymata, track and field
 * Marcos Baghdatis, tennis player
 * Demetri Catrakilis, rugby player for Harlequins
 * Constantinos Charalambidis, football player with Apoel Nicosia
 * Dimitris Christofi, football player with Omonoia Nicosia
 * Christodoulos Christodoulides, judoka
 * Andrew Demetriou, Australian rules football player, CEO of the Australian Football League (AFL)
 * Chris Dicomidis, rugby player for the Cypriot national rugby team
 * Andri Eleftheriou, skeet shooter
 * Tio Ellinas, race car driver
 * Marios Georgiou, Olympic gymnast
 * Savva Georgiou, football player
 * Marios Hadjiandreou, triple jumper
 * Oscar Heidenstam, bodybuilding champion
 * Lazaros Iakovou, football player
 * Andreas Ioannides, football player
 * Kyriakos Ioannou, track and field
 * Sotiris Kaiafas, former football player with Omonoia Nicosia and Golden Boot winner
 * Prodromos Katsantonis, sprinter
 * Michalis Konstantinou, football player with Omonoia Nicosia
 * Pavlos Kontides, sailor and first Cypriot Olympic medalist
 * Anthony Koutoufides, Australian rules footballer
 * Stylianos Kyriakides, marathon runner
 * Tom Loizides, Cypriot national rugby team
 * Anninos Marcoullides, sprinter
 * Elena Mousikou, archer
 * Yılmaz Orhan, football player
 * Ramona Papaioannou, sprinter
 * Karolina Pelendritou, swimmer and Paralympic gold medalist
 * Dimitri Petrides, Latin American dance pioneer
 * Costas Philippou, UFC fighter/ Boxer
 * Meliz Redif, athlete
 * Panagiotis Sierepeklis, volleyball player
 * Andreas Sofokleous, footballer
 * Andreas Tsiatinis, basketball player
 * Milan Trajkovic, hurdler
 * Chrystalleni Trikomiti, rhythmic gymnast
 * Garo Yepremian, former place kicker for the Miami Dolphins

Writers

 * Kutlu Adali, journalist
 * Anthony Anaxagorou, poet
 * Ulus Baker, non-fiction writer
 * Urkiye Mine Balman, poet
 * Neriman Cahit, poet and author
 * Kyriakos Charalambides, poet
 * Demetris Th. Gotsis, poet and writer
 * Dimitris Lipertis, poet
 * Peter Lyssiotis, writer
 * Niki Marangou, writer
 * Pembe Marmara, poet
 * Vasilis Michaelides, poet
 * Costas Montis, poet
 * Kaytazzade Mehmet Nazım, poet
 * Nicos Nicolaides, writer and painter
 * Michael Paraskos, novelist and art critic
 * George Philippou Pierides, writer
 * Michael Theodoulou, journalist
 * Osman Türkay, poet and Nobel Prize for Literature nominee
 * Sevgül Uludağ, journalist
 * Mehmet Yaşın, poet
 * Neşe Yaşın, poet
 * Özker Yaşın, poet

title: List of Cypriots


text:
Anglo-Iraqi Treaty of 1930

The Anglo-Iraqi Treaty of 1930 was a treaty of alliance between the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the British-Mandate-controlled administration of the Hashemite Kingdom of Iraq. The treaty was between the governments of George V the United Kingdom and Faisal I of Iraq. High Commissioner Francis Humphrys signed for the United Kingdom and Prime Minister Nuri as-Said signed for Iraq. The 1930 treaty was based upon an earlier Anglo-Iraqi Treaty of 1922 but took into account Iraq's increased importance to British interests given new oil finds made in 1927.

Background
During the Mesopotamian campaign of the First World War, the British Army (alongside troops from the Commonwealth), fighting on the side of Allies, defeated the forces of the Ottoman Empire, fighting on the side the Central Powers. After the end of the First World War, British troops remained in the region which became the Kingdom of Iraq. In 1920, after the Ottoman Empire was partitioned, the United Kingdom formally established control over what was to become Iraq under a mandate from the League of Nations.

The Kingdom of Iraq began with the coronation of King Faisal I on 23 August 1921. The 1930 treaty provided a path towards nominal independence for Iraq two years later at the termination of the mandate and upon the entry of Iraq itself as a member of the League of Nations. The main purpose of the treaty was to give the British a variety of commercial and military rights within the country after independence.

Provisions and effect
British Prime Minister Winston Churchill was to write that the 1930 treaty provided that the British could maintain air bases near Basra and Habbaniya "in times of peace" and have the right of transit for military forces and supplies "at all times". In addition, Churchill indicated that the treaty would provide "all possible facilities" including the use of railways, rivers, ports, and airways for the passage of armed forces "during times of war".

The treaty gave the British almost unlimited rights to base military forces in Iraq. It further provided for the unconditional and unlimited right of the British to move troops into or through Iraq. In 1941, the terms of the treaty were used to justify a British invasion and the occupation of Iraq after a nationalist coup whose leaders had contacts among the Axis powers.

The British used the terms of the treaty as a basis for a military occupation that lasted until end of 1947. As they prepared to depart Iraq, an attempt was made to get the Iraqi government to sign a new military treaty giving the British greater powers than under the 1930 treaty. While that treaty was approved, it never came into effect because of unrest and large demonstrations in Iraq against it.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Anglo-Iraqi Treaty of 1930


text:
Talk:Jack Coe

Information
Concise information about Jack Coe is hard to come by. Information about his Revival center, his orphanage, and his magazine is not readily available-but I am sure it's available somewhere. It will be interesting to see what information others can add to this article. I lived in his orphanage for 2 years, between the ages of 7 and 9 years. I am looking for more information about the home. I can tell report that Juanita remarried. She was married when I was there, to an evangelist and her son, Jack Jr and his wife Freda lived on the grounds of the orphanage, with their twins - Jack and Jill. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.160.212.178 (talk • contribs) 03:31, 5 December 2004

 * Self-published material isn't WP:RS. Newspapers, on the other hand, are. You can search the archives at http://news.google.com/archivesearch . Tgreach (talk) 04:40, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Information may be available from Jack Coe Jr.
More information may be available from Jack Coe Jr, now an evangelist who holds his own healing meetings and distributes many of his father's audio and video sermons. He also has Jack Coe Sr's autobiography available. The web site for Jack Coe Ministries is "jackcoe.org", and email address for Jack Coe Ministries is "jackcoe@jackcoe.org". According to the web page, they plan to make Jack Coe Sr's magazine available on CD ROM in the near future.

Better sources needed
Harrell and Robins are pretty general in their scope, and are secondary sources. This article needs more primary source material. The article is far too dependent on secondary sources. Regarding the comment by another editor that good source material regarding Coe isn't available, this simply isn't true. Extensive materials are easily accessible, and include videos of his television programs, copies of books and booklets by Coe and his wife, and coverage in the Voice of Healing magazine. Mtnbuilder (talk) 13:16, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://archive.is/20130104021820/http://www.newspaperarchive.com/newspapers1/na0034/6776963/33852475_clean.html to http://www.newspaperarchive.com/newspapers1/na0034/6776963/33852475_clean.html

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title: Talk:Jack Coe


text: User talk:69.241.13.80

title: User talk:69.241.13.80


text:
User talk:Hmc

Thanks for experimenting with Wikipedia. Your test worked, and has been reverted or removed. Please use the sandbox for any other tests you want to do. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. Thanks. Gamaliel 03:34, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

IQ scores
Just reverting my edit, losing the historical material I placed on the page, is a bad idea for the development of the page. Please use the talk page of the article, to address the issue of where these numbers come from. It is simply not adequate by Wikipedia standards, to copy them uncritically from some other source.

Charles Matthews 05:46, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:Hmc


text:
Talk:Teen Girl Squad

I'm a big fan of Homestar Runner and I personally find the Teen Girl Squad cartoons to be hilarious, but do we really need a Wikipedia article for this? This sort of article has me questioning what the role of Wikipedia is. I don't believe this project is designed to include a blow-by-blow account of every online cartoon ever created. Though technically well-written, this article is anything but encyclopedic.

I think articles concerning topics of the scope of Harry Potter, for instance, are justified due to both the appreciable impact of the series on society and the author(s) discussing the significance of the series as a phenomenon and literary work, rather than merely relating the events of the plots. However, I do not believe that something of this nature qualifies for an encyclopedia article. If we allowed this to go through, then Wikipedia would soon be littered with articles that would be little more than plot synposes of obscure items of interest.

Furthermore, this article only informs the reader of the plots of a silly cartoon series, which they could easily discover by simply watching it. Because of this, I think it's hard to argue that this article is doing anything more than promoting the Homestar Runner Website, which is fine to do, but this is the wrong place to do it (it violates Wikipedia's terms of use). I hesitate to vote to delete this because I am relatively new here and not really involved in contributing to the community so much. For all I know, this may be a perfectly legitimate and acceptable article. If anyone feels like they could debate the merits of including this article, I hope they use this opportunity to do so. Otherwise, I humbly submit the decision of whether or not to retain it to the community.

 * Most of this article should be hacked out and left to the Homestar Runner Wiki. A listing of all the easter eggs is definitely more appropriate there than here. -- Cyrius|✎ 05:50, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Brainkrieg
Why is Brainkrieg considered "nu-metal"? This may stretch the boundaries of being anal, but I thought the SB e-mail in which Brainkrieg was featured focused on death metal (not that BK sounded death). Undersea

Issue #9
Just to let you know, I added the info for Issue #9. ~Shippy Mandy

Redirect conflict
As I am a new user and cannot move pages, please change "What's Her Face" into a disambiguation page. It conflicts with the name of a doll line. Alcy 07:57, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

I think this is funny
Wikipedia was not really made for this but who cares it just shows how many fans of the [homestarrunner website]. LONG LIVE TROGDORRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Referenced by the Runaways (comic)
I forget which issue.

Issue #11
I added the info for Issue #11. It was released July 17, 2006. KdogDS 19:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Picture of title page
how do i change that so it shows all eleven issues? It should be this: KdogDS 18:52, 19 July 2006 (UTC) Image:Teen girl squad NEW.png

Never mind! --Addict 2006 06:32, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Unnecessary fancruft
There is no need for a plot summary of each episode and a detailed description of characters when all this information is easily and freely available on HRWiki. I'm making it short and (more) encyclopedic. Darobsta 07:25, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. This has also been touched on in the merge discussion on Talk:Homestar Runner. —BazookaJoe 04:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * While I disagree entirely with this neutered article, I will not revert it. However, remember that fancruft is NOT offical Wikipedia policy term, nor is it necessarily a bad thing. Payneos 21:07, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, no way. One man is not the majority and you DO NOT erase almost an entire article before FIRST discussing it and seeing if it is necessary. Just because you mentioned it on the discussion page, it doesn't justify your action as appropriate. Such large edits are discussed PRIOR to action not POST. So I am going to reinstate the article as it was until a PROPER discussion is had.

Your opinions on what is "fancruft" and what is necessary will be weighed out against the opinions of other editors. This is not your article to do with as you please. We will operate as a community, not as a dictatorship. Not everyone knows about HRWiki, but everyone knows about Wikipedia. Just because the information is mentioned elsewhere, doesn't mean it shouldn't be mentioned here. This is why we have a discussion page: so we can sort things out BEFORE we do anything major. Sage of Ice 06:48, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I personally preferred Darobsta's version. Just making my opinion known. JuJube 06:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * That's fine. This is what we're here for. We'll get stuff sorted out and THEN we'll act, based on a community decision. It's just wrong to allow one person to do something so major without FIRST consulting everyone about it.

 * Keep in mind though that some people don't bother looking at external links. A lot of people come to Wikipedia as their go-to source and don't give much second thought to external links even if that link takes them to a much more vast source, like HRWiki. They like to get their info from Wikipedia and Wikipedia only. If the page is kind of empty, then they'll just move on. I personally feel that another site having the info isn't really enough to condemn all the work that went into this one.

 * Like I said though, I'll go with the vote of the majority. The page stays until then, though. Sage of Ice 06:55, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

To do: pictures of characters with tags
Read the heading. --Addict 2006 06:33, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Issue 13
Issue 13 has come out as of June 18th. We need to add this.

title: Talk:Teen Girl Squad


text:
User:Sid007/WikiMarks

Wiki Junk Boards.

Random copy & paste, trials, and errors.

[[User:sid007|sid007\talk]] 03:35, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

title: User:Sid007/WikiMarks


text: User talk:66.10.123.10

title: User talk:66.10.123.10


text:
Talk:Today (The Smashing Pumpkins song)

old discussion
The previous format of the chart positions was consistant with other articles on Wikipedia of the same type. If nobody justifies why it was changed, I am changing it back. -- LGagnon 03:36, Dec 5, 2004 (UTC)

 * Hi LGagnon, I hope I didn't offend. I changed it because 1) I don't see why it should be presented in typewriter font, and 2) I don't see why the song name should be repeated on every line.  But it's not a big deal to me.  --Dbenbenn 22:45, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * I wasn't offended; I just wanted to keep the article consistant with the current style model. If you still think it would be better a different way, you can talk with the guys who run the music Wikiproject; they decide the standard for how the articles for albums and singles are done. But if you'd rather not, that's fine. -- LGagnon 00:12, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

 * I didn't find anything at Wikiproject Albums addressing chart positions. I'll bring up the issue there.  By the way, Pieces of Me is an example of a single that does it differently.  Though I agree the fixed-width format is most common.  --Dbenbenn 00:39, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking up the task. The more concensus we get on such things, the sooner we improve Wikipedia's consistency. -- LGagnon 01:31, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

 * It seems like the table format has become the preferred one lately, and I was told during a FAC nomination for another article that I should change the format to the table. I do think the tables look nicer. Everyking 00:45, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * I don't really have anything against the table format. My only concern is with the uniformity of the articles; after all, Wikipedia looks more professional when there is a consistent style to it. -- LGagnon 01:31, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

 * The non-tabled version is what we've been using, I guess out of tradition and because nobody wanted to do the work of making something pretty. I think DCEdwards has been the prime force in switching to the tabled version. Tuf-Kat 08:21, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

I feel that this song isn't necessarily ironic or sarcastic, although you could interpret it that way. I always found the lyric "Today is the greatest day of them all" sincere since the singer is uplifted knowing today he will commit suicide. So I changed the article a little so there isn't the claim the songs lyrics are sarcastic, but if you think my view is bogus let's talk about it. Rab V 08:49, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I think it's sarcastic... just with the happy little guitar in the begining completely contradicting what's expect from a song about suicide... I'd just change the first sentence back to saying it's ironically upbeat. Underwater 01:59, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Yeah, but if you think that the singer might also be honetly happy thinking today he is going to end his life, or at least see this could be a valid interpretation I don't think we should lay down one way of understanding the song like it is absolute. Rab V 02:43, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Billy Corgan says “Today is the greatest day I’ve ever known”, because it can’t get worse. He was being depressed and suicidal when writing this album, which explains the lyrics. ’’’PhilDaBirdMan’’’ 17:49, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

GA review
This article is well written, it has a good lead, and it's broad in its coverage. It also has reliable references and citations throughout the article, therefore I'm passing the article. Good job to those who worked on it! MahangaTalk 02:14, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, thank you for the review! --Brandt Luke Zorn 03:17, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Live versions?
Hey, I'm a big fan of SP and like the articles on Wikipedia. Some of the singles articles discuss live versions and I think Today should also have this as it is perhaps their best known song. For example the early incarnations of the song stuck to the Siamese Dream sound, wherease during the Adore era it was acousticified if played at all. Finally, it's now taken on a short solo at the end as new live versions have shown.

Just a suggestion... DrBobert 19:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the suggestion. I have been meaning to get around to expanding on how the song was performed live (much like what Smells Like Teen Spirit has), but these kinds of sources can be hard to find. I've taken a liking to the SPLRA for live Smashing Pumpkins-related info, but isn't really an appropriate source for how the song was played. You can help with it, if you want. --Brandt Luke Zorn 22:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

 * I don't think the song is performed differently enough to warrant a mention. The way it's played hasn't really changed in any significant way at all, but that's just my opinion.  MrHate 00:06, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Grunge
This sounds like grunge? Anyone agree? Thundermaster367 09:21, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It may sound like grunge, but the Smashing Pumpkins are typically associated with the wider genre alternative rock rather than the more narrow grunge category. --Brandt Luke Zorn 13:38, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

 * The thing is though, alternative rock is such a wide genre that it does not give a good definition of their sound, don't you think. Alternative rock covers Placebo, Radiohead, Hard-Fi and Nirvana. So do you think that this should perhaps be narrowed down a bit so that when the reader sees this page, they have an understanding of what the Smashing Pumpkins' sound is. Thundermaster367 08:45, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

 * The Smashing Pumpkins explored a wide variety of genres (from the band's page we have gothic rock, heavy metal, dream pop, psychedelic rock, and progressive rock listed) but they usually aren't classified into a more specific alternative rock subgenre. Plus, if the "Composition and lyrics" isn't specific enough in describing the Pumpkins' sound, I don't think that a change as minor as a different genre tag would help a reader. --Brandt Luke Zorn 14:45, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Alt-rock is fine. Also note that in the "Composition" section the sound of the song is directly compared to that of The Cure and My Bloody Valentine, goth and shoegaze bands respectively. WesleyDodds 01:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

 * The band's main genre is alternative rock, but can't a single song be another genre (like Cherub Rock and Bullet with Butterfly Wings)? As much as I agree grunge was very influenced by alt-rock, the main influences were punk rock and heavy metal. --Marcos FTO (talk) 19:14, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:TodayIntro.JPG
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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:55, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Todaypromo.jpg
Image:Todaypromo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 20:56, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Irrelevant?
Reqluce (talk) 21:41, 18 March 2008 (UTC)Why does this article contain a non-sequittor " It's important to note that Billy Corgan and Brett Hickman are long time buddies. Brett Hickman is obese" ? Who else is in favor of the deletion of this line?

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Definite article in band's name in article title
Shouldn't the title of this article be Today (Smashing Pumpkins song) (without the definite article in the band's name)? For example, Wikipedia has Something (Beatles song) and Something (The Beatles song) is redirected to it. Dyspeptic skeptic (talk) 03:27, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

 * It could be either Today (The Smashing Pumpkins song) or Today (Smashing Pumpkins song) because they used both titles on their albums and singles. ’’’PhilDaBirdMan’’’ 17:52, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

FA concerns
This older FA needs some tuning up to get back to the modern featured article criteria. There's a couple of spots where citations are needed, such as the inclusion of Ludwig in the personnel section. There's also a couple citations to sources that are doubtful - a Reddit post, rocklistmusic, act4.net, and homelesstunes. This should be easily fixable, but work is needed. Hog Farm Talk 02:57, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 14 March 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Procedural close to reopen as a properly formatted RM. — BarrelProof (talk) 21:53, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Today (The Smashing Pumpkins song) → Today (Smashing Pumpkins song) – I do not believe that there should be a definite article in the page name (same with Rocket (The Smashing Pumpkins song)). As User:Dyspeptic skeptic points out above me, articles like Something (Beatles song) do not feature the definite article in their titles, so why should this be the same? It seems like a no-brainer to me, but I want to allow discussion to happen before a potential move takes place. JeffSpaceman (talk) 13:49, 14 March 2023 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * This is unfortunately not a properly formatted RM request. Because it was apparently not created using the method described at WP:RM, it did not get the tag that would have included it in the list of active RMs. — BarrelProof (talk) 19:26, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for letting me know, User:BarrelProof. I was not aware of how to format these, but it seems that taking this to WP:Requested moves helped me (partially) figure it out. JeffSpaceman (talk) 20:59, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 19 March 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) { {ping|ClydeFranklin }} (t/c) 18:08, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

– "The" does not need to be in the hatnote (see also: various Beatles songs with "Beatles song" without the definite article as the hatnote). JeffSpaceman (talk) 17:01, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Today (The Smashing Pumpkins song) → Today (Smashing Pumpkins song)
 * Rocket (The Smashing Pumpkins song) → Rocket (Smashing Pumpkins song)

Ping to those who commented in the RMTR discussion: and  — BarrelProof (talk) 21:59, 19 March 2023 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * This is a contested WP:RMTR technical request. Below are comments from the WP:RMTR discussion. — BarrelProof (talk) 21:58, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I assume you mean the disamb (part in brackets)? As I couldn't see a hatnote on that page. -Kj cheetham (talk) 18:15, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Whilst I agree with you, I also note Talk:Today_(The_Smashing_Pumpkins_song) (not sure that counts as discussion though!) -Kj cheetham (talk) 18:16, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * There is also a malformed RM at Talk:Today (The Smashing Pumpkins song). — BarrelProof (talk) 19:22, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * On the other hand, there's Drown (The Smashing Pumpkins song) and Tonight, Tonight (The Smashing Pumpkins song)... -Kj cheetham (talk) 18:18, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Everything in Category:The Smashing Pumpkins songs uses "The", the main article is The Smashing Pumpkins, and there is definitely precedent for using "The" in similar disambiguation tags (not the Beatles, but see London's Burning (The Clash song), Never Enough (The Cure song)...) 162 etc. (talk) 18:50, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * This is not uncontroversial. My recollection is that the latest discussion of this issue allows either form, while encouraging consistency within each group's body of work. Comment update providing further detail about the historical background: An RfC discussion is recorded at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Music/Archive 8. There was a consensus declared on 23 August 2019 that the "The" should not be included in such cases, and a lot of articles were moved in the next couple of months to reflect that. The Beatles was one of the highly discussed examples. That consensus was then declared overturned on 11 October 2019. Although the consensus to not include "The" was overturned, there was no decision to say that "The" should be included either – so we ended up with the MoS being neutral on the subject. — BarrelProof (talk) 19:37, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * In which case I oppose this move for the sake of being consistent with the other articles. -Kj cheetham (talk) 19:40, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment: Also note Category:The Smashing Pumpkins albums as well as Category:The Smashing Pumpkins songs. The outcome should be consistent for all works by the Smashing Pumpkins. I lean slightly toward support in these cases, but only if the same change is applied consistently to all their songs and albums.— BarrelProof (talk) 22:07, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose: Per Kj cheetham's reasoning above. Moving these article will only introduce inconsistency across the Pumpkins' articles. I recall moving Give Me a Reason (The Corrs song) for similar reasons after someone took out the "The". Furthermore, the band's article is titled "The Smashing Pumpkins", not "Smashing Pumpkins". I refer to this as the "master" article. Unless it's renamed, the "subordinate" articles should stay the way they are. (To compare, note the naming scheme of Black Eyed Peas articles—all without "The".) ResPM  (T🔈🎵C) 12:41, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose per above. There is no policy-based reason to remove "The", and their other songs are all disambiguated as "The Smashing Pumpkins".  See WP:BROKE. 162 etc. (talk) 15:54, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Today (The Smashing Pumpkins song)


text:
Talk:Boeotia Prefecture

Shouldn't this info be on the Boeotia page, and the info there be edited and moved further down as historial information? Aggelophoros 03:41, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Merge with "Boeotia" is one option, moving this article to "Boeotia Prefecture" is also an option. Anyway "Viotia" is not the official transliteration, but the one proposed by the US Board of Geographic Names. Official would be "Voiotia". Reactions at Talk:Prefectures of Greece please. Markussep 13:06, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Agios Thomas
Agios Thomas. Village in Viotia, member of Oinofyta municipality. http://www.agiosthomas.de.vu. Beautifull village with interesting mountains, but with polution problems from the heavy industry in the vissinity of Oinofyta. River Asopos also have problems.

Uh, would be good to clarify the sole sentence regarding the now-found lost city in a lake. Which Lake? what is its citation? sources? Frozenbrains

title: Talk:Boeotia Prefecture


text:
Talk:Esperanto/Archive 1

The note on the Utah convict sounds like mere advocacy (learn Esperanto and get letters). What is the status of the 30,000 titles that the British Esperantists 'have' (yes, I know the verb is hopelessly vague in English, and that the Esperanto must be MUCH more exact)? 30,000 EVER published, or 30,000 currently in print? A side issue is that I'd like to know what Foreign Service level 1 is if level 3 is communication is that above the level of grunted greetings (which must be level 2?). Is level 1 WISHING you could grunt greetings, much like my ability at spoken German? --MichaelTinkler

Points well taken. My comment about the Utah inmate was indeed advocacy and has been deleted (personally I could care less about having Esperanto pen pals, but some like them). There are 30,000 books in the library in the British Esperanto Association alone. For the record, havi is the word for "to have" in Esperanto and it actually has the same vagueness as English. :) The foreign service levels are somewhat defined in the government document at http://oig.state.gov/pdf/7sp005.pdf.  It appears that level 0 is wishing you could grunt greetings, and level 1 is actually being able to grunt greetings (as is also my ability at spoken German).  Thank you for your comments.  --ChuckSmith

Could somebody please give a reference for the study mentioned in the entry that it pays off (or at least is no hinderance) to learn Esperanto as the first language. -- HJH

See Chuck Smith/Pedagogical evidence for Esperanto.

Because Esperanto is so well known

Is Esperanto really so well known? I only heard about it a year ago when I was 21 researching a paper on Machine Language Acquisition. I would say only about a quarter of the people in the United States have even heard of it. --Chuck Smith

 * Good point. Perhaps a better way of putting it is to say that Esperanto is by far the most well known of the artificial (auxiliary) languages. -- Egern

What does everyone think about breaking this article into Esperanto language and Esperanto culture like the other languages are set up? I think this article is large enough to warrant this split. --Chuck Smith

 * Yes. Yes, indeed.--Node 22:01, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Can't the other Esperanto pages go as sub-pages of this one? - Mark Ryan

I think they would go better as seperate pages because LMS wants to get rid of subpages altogether soon. --Chuck Smith

 * Yes, they shouldn't be subpages. But they shouldn't be uppercase either, so I've renamed them. --Zundark 2002 Jan 12

To 12.234.138.157: removing references to the Esperanto version of the wikipedia and moving the links to criticism pages to be before the supportive pages is pretty childish. If you really want to show how poor Esperanto is, may I suggest you start up a Wikipedia project in your favored language and try to surpass it in honest usage? There are stub sites ready to go for Interlingua and Volapük at the least, and I'm sure Jimbo would be happy to set up wikis for any languages that don't have 2-letter codes. Brion VIBBER, Monday, April 29, 2002

I don't know about the spirit being Hebrew; my impression has always been that the spirit has been that of the prestige language of the area Esperanto was first extensively used; namely, Poland -- and German. It should be also noted that canonical modern Esperanto style is not primarily Zamenhof's, but Kazimierz Bein's ("Kabe", who to my knowledge was Gentile).

 * I took out the phrase about the spirit of the language being Hebrew because Enrique Ellemberg (a fluent Esperantist from Argentina) and I also agree. I also removed the part about the ease of use being luck because Zamenhof spent many years testing the language to see which parts worked and which didn't.  Also, that would be more appropriate on the L. L. Zamenhof page.  Enrique's comments are as follows:  --ChuckSmith

 * "its heart and spirit (its logic) is Hebrew."

 * Cxu tio certas? En la pagxo la vorto "Hebrew" estas ligo, kaj pro tio havas enfazon. Mi pensas ke la ideo de "Hebrew"-a lingvo povas malallogi interesitojn. Ankaux mi scias ke iu foje Zamenhof pensis pri lingvo por judoj, sed finfine li faris lingvon por la mondo, ne nur por la judoj. La judoj ne akceptis liajn ideojn.

 * "Zamenhof was not a professional linguist, but rather an ophthalmologist"

 * Zamenhof studadis lingvistikon kaj lingvojn, de sia volo, dum multaj jaroj. Zamenhof studis medicinon nur cxar la patro trudis gxin. La lingvon Esperanton Zamenhof pretigis multaj jaroj antaux ol esti oftalmologo. La oftalmologo ne kreis Esperanton. La studento de lingvoj kreis Esperanton.

 * "extremely regular and easy to learn (due in large part to luck..."

 * LUCK ???!!! Zamenhof laboris multege da jaroj en sia lingvo, provante cxion per tradukoj, kaj refarante cxion kio ne funkciis. Nenio estis "luck", bonsxanco, en la vivo de Zamenhof.

 * Could be. There have been hundreds of language projects over the centuries with pretty much the same aims as E-o, both before and after.  It just happened that LLZ was the language author who hit the target.  Maybe the "lucky" part was that he did it at the right time: just when international travel was becoming established and fashionable.  --Tiffer 20:56, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Language points
I'm removing the "some claim" from (some claim that its syntax is more like Asian languages) unless I can see any evidence against this. See Esperanto: A Western Language? by former UN translator, Claude Piron.

 * Yes, Chuck, I've read that article. (I love Piron's articles -- I started on an English translation of his Confession d'un fou européen some time ago which I'll have to finish one of these days!) BUT... he doesn't say anything there about syntax! He does show similarities in word formation (part of morphology) -- usually building from invariable parts rather than the variable inflections and oddly or unrelated word families we see in Indo-European. However, there are quite a few decidedly un-Asian but IE-like things in Esperanto's syntax: required plural markers, required noun-adjective agreement in number and case, required tense markers (on verbs) and aspect markers (on participles), prepositions, relative clauses... I'm willing to believe that someone claims there are greater similarities to Asian languages in syntax, but I'm not aware of such claims and I wouldn't believe them without seeing any evidence. Brion VIBBER, Tuesday, April 30, 2002

Character of E-o
I'd like to see more references to Esperanto's supposed similarity to Asian languages. The analysis in the Claude Piron article mentioned above is deeply flawed, linguistically. Piron likens Esperanto to Chinese! The problems with that are:

 * 1) Chinese is not at all polysynthetic; it is the canonical example of an isolating language
 * 2) Piron's real basis for comparison is their regularity. But Chinese is regular because of its lack of inflection; Esperanto is regular because the inflection system has no exceptions.
 * 3) I'm not fully qualified to judge on this point, but he seems to be using the word word a bit loosely. The strings of Chinese morphemes he cites are AFAICT phrases, not words.
 * 4) The similarity of ordering among the morphemes doesn't rise much beyond the threshold of coincidence.

Overall, Esperanto is closer to a fusional language than to an agglutinative language. The test for agglutination, as mentioned above, includes that morphemes are concatenated without change. But this can be explained in the case of Esperanto by the intentional effort to keep the language fully regular; there are other tests which suggest properties of a synthetic language.

The main argument is another test for agglutination: that each element of meaning be expressed in a separate morpheme. Esperanto follows the model of other European languages, with a small number of morphemes coding a large number of meanings: -as conveys verbal function, present tense, declarative mood; -o encodes status as a noun, subjective mood, singular number; etc. Another argument is the general similarity to Latin or German, which are considered canonical fusional languages.

 * The verb endings can be analyzed further: -s indicates verbishness, -t- indicates participleness [cannot stand on its own, must be followed by additional endings to make adjective, noun, or yes even verb forms], -n- is a passive->active converter for participles; -a- is present, -i- past, -o- future, -u- potential. -u- participles are not "official", but do appear in usage. The -i infinitive and the -u volative mood act a little differently from everything else; infinitive is noun-like but not exactly, and volative has a default subject [second person] and can't be used in participles. --Brion

I note some confusion on this point, for example in the Esperanto FAQ, part 9, which sets up a dichotomy between "'Western' root-based thinking and 'Eastern' agglutinative thinking", and claims that Esperanto is a "good compromise" between the two. It's not clear what's meant here; for example, some of the most highly agglutinating languages out there are Mohawk, Innuit and Basque.

The distinctions "agglutinative" and "synthetic" lie along a continuum, so this is not a cut-and-dried issue, but I'd like to capture the most accurate characterization here, especially with regard to relation or non-relation to Asian languages. The comment in the article is, even if correct, much too vague: the Asian language with the most speakers by far is in fact not agglutinative at all (and yet is the only Asian language mentioned in Piron's article). Can we have some pointers into the literature comparing Esperanto to Japanese? --Len

 * How about this:

 * As far as [modifiers coming before the modified word], European languages behave in different ways. For an adjectival modifier, the basic principle in French is [noun + epithet], while in English it's [epithet + noun], unless it's a subclause, including relative clauses; then the order is always [noun + epithet]. Japanese and Chinese stand out for their regularity. "The fact that he's a liar" is "[he's a liar]-ish fact". To formulate; in the European languages: SN -> NP, in Japanese and Chinese: SN -> P N, where SN = naming sintagm [??"sintagmo noma"??], P = clause, N = name or noun.

 * Esperantologists' hobby horse about the agglutinative nature of Asian languages and Esperanto means absolutely nothing here. There is absolutely no such fact that Esperanto is more easily learnable for Asians because of its agglutinative nature. Esperanto is durch und durch a European language.

 * YAMASAKI Seikô, Enkonduko en la Japanan; Chapecó-SC, Brazil: Fonto, 2000. pp 22-23; my translation. --Brion 21:06 Dec 20, 2002 (UTC)

Claude Piron doesn't have time to respond to the comments made in this thread on his comparison of Esperanto with Chinese, but he told me that his comparison is with actual Chinese (i.e. the language used by Han people both in China and in the Chinese diaspora), not with the image of Chinese found in many linguistics textbooks and encyclopedias. He sent me an article he wrote in French on the remarkable difference between the real language and the features constantly ascribed to it in books on general or comparative linguistics.

I have posted this article and you can read it at http://www.esperanto.net/info/CHINOIS.rtf.

In this article, he demonstrates by linguistic analysis of Chinese material, comparison with other languages and the use of various tests where you are mistaken if you adhere to the conventional opinion according to which
 * there is no distinction between word and morpheme in Chinese,
 * Chinese words don't belong to a grammatical category and can readily switch from one to the other,
 * the substantive, adjective, verbal or adverbial function of a Chinese word depends on its place in the sentence,
 * Chinese morphemes are autonomous units not susceptible to agglutination, and
 * Chinese is a language without affixes and endings.

He also presents a few hypotheses on the psychological causes of this distortion of reality which are traditionally repeated among linguists, and of which even people who have studied some Chinese appear not to be aware. People often stick to a preconceived opinion that has been transmitted to them by authorites rather than to reality, to such an extent that they don't see the facts that contradict that opinion.

--Chuck SMITH

 * I can't read French alas, but I highly suspect that Piron's demonstration is based only on eyeballing existing corpora, which will likely only use "typical" Chinese language constructs. But, to exercise all the nooks and crannies of Chinese grammar -- which is the main point anyway -- there's no substitute for face-to-face contact with a native Chinese speaker! Chinese being my mother tongue, I can safely say that for one thing, many so-called "affixes" (e.g. "men5" for plural) are really clitics, and can apply over phrasal constructs such as conjunctions. So there... -- tk1@despammed.com

 * Well, as you can see from the biography of Claude Piron, he was a UN translator for Chinese, so I think he must know Chinese pretty well. I've just printed out his essay and I'll try to read it sometime during the next week...  --Chuck SMITH 12:37, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the response. Incidentally, Edwin Pulleybank in "Outline of Classic Chinese Grammar" argues that Chinese is really a bit of an inflecting language, and classical Chinese much more so: inflection is done by modifying the consonants and tone contour within a single syllable (= character). Now that's confusing... -- tk1@despammed.com

I removed the phrase "Esperanto advocates" because even some linguists who don't speak Esperanto show that morphemes make languages easier to learn, plus that phrase is very biased. --Chuck SMITH

Fair enough. I just hate seeing the phrase 'Some say'. It's better (I believe) to attribute beliefs. Would it be fair to say "Esperanto advocates and many linguists say..." ? cprompt

Well, if you have to put something there then use "Esperanto speakers" and not "Esperanto advocates". :-) --Chuck SMITH

Living Language
Well I disagree with you there, as I think the English idiom is well established.

 * Well, I know in practice I've responded both ways before in English and have been misunderstood, so I always clarify myself completely. Whether in theory one way is right or not, that could be different.  I generally take languages by what I find in practice rather than what's in the textbooks.  --Chuck SMITH

But anyway, I have since found out what is recommended in Esperanto. Excerpt from Plena Ilustrita Vortaro:

 * "II...Rim. 2 Respondante al nea demando, kies neadon oni volas konfirmi, kelkaj popoloj, precipe okcident-eŭropaj, uzas ne, dum aliaj, precipe orientaj, uzas jes: li diris: ĉu vi ne scias, kio tio estas? Mi diris: ne, mia Sinjoro....Male: ĉu ŝi edziniĝis? demandis Marta. -- Jes, iele tio fariĝis, ke ŝi ne edziniĝis(Z). Same, responde al nea demando, kies malpravon oni volas aserti, la unuaj uzas jes (aŭ jes ja), la aliaj ne:...La sola rimedo eviti miskomprenon, almenaŭ en la konversacio, estus ripeti la pridemanditan verbon: ĉu li ne venos? -- Li venos (aŭ) Li ne venos."

 * Responding to a negative question, whose negativity one wans to confirm, some peoples, mainly western European, use no, while others, mainly eastern, use yes <...snip...> The only way to avoid misunderstanding, at least in conversation, is to repeat the asked-about verb: "Won't he come?" -- "He will come (or) He won't come".

I have every sympathy with this honest acknowledgment in PIV that if speakers of very different native languages are to communicate effectively then there is more to learn than everyone simply saying and understanding things the way that comes most naturally to them.

 * I agree. That's why I always clarify myself after my response even as I do in English, especially when I'm communicating with someone who is not a native English speaker... somehow I now realize that we've left the discussion about the article and just started chatting... perhaps we should delete some comments here that aren't directly related to the article, eh?  --Chuck SMITH

Insisting on promoting Esperanto in a way which looks easiest (in this case for English speakers), rather than admitting that not everything will ideally suit everybody, can be at the expense of speakers of other languages. The word ŝati is a case in point: because people have insisted on misusing it just in order to create a way of saying "I like" which is easy for them, an ambiguity has now arisen for everybody else when ŝati is used these days, as to whether it is being used in its true sense of "esteem highly" or is simply being used to mean "to like".

--Trainspotter 17:07 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * I always understood ŝati and plaĉi to mean the same thing, but used in a different word order. As far as the "misuse" of the language goes, languages evolve naturally and no one can control a living language, so if a meaning changes over time then that happens.  The same happened in English with the word gay...  --Chuck SMITH

Pri la paragrafo: "However, modern Esperanto usage may in fact depart from that originally described in the Fundamento. The translation given for "I like this one", in the phrases below offers a significant example."

 * La vortigo "may depart" ne bone priskribas la problemon. La ekzemplo pri ŝati/plaĉi; laŭ mi, ne taŭgas.

Ĉu mi ne povas diri : "mi ŝatas ĉi tiun veston, kaj ankaŭ tiu plaĉas al mi; sed mi preferas la jenan."

Mi proponas forviŝi tiun paragrafon, kaj krei apartan paĝon pri la problemo de lingvo evoluado. Mi trovis bonan klarigon en la tezo de François LO JACOMO : "liberté ou autorité dans l'évolution de l'espéranto' . paĝo 135 : Faute et évolution.

 * parta traduko :

Se mi uzas la vorton "kara" laŭ la senco "multekosta", mi sekvas la tradician normon, tiel kiel atestas la vortaroj (inter kiuj PIV). Sed mi ne konformiĝas al la nuna uzo kiu limigas tiun terminon al la unua senco. -- Raymond Gerard

The role of the Fundamento de Esperanto ("Basis of Esperanto", a work containing the sixteen rules of grammar, a "universal dictionary" and a collection of exercises) was laid out in the "Declaration of the Essence of Esperantism" at the first World Congress (Boulogne, 1905):

 * La sola unu fojon por ĉiam deviga por ĉiuj esperantistoj fundamento de la lingvo Esperanto estas la verketo "Fundamento de Esperanto", en kiu neniu havas la rajton fari ŝanĝon.

 * The only, once and for all time compulsory for all Esperantists, basis of the language Esperanto is the little work "Basis of Esperanto", in which nobody has the right to make a change. (translation, emphasis mine)

Extract from the "universal dictionary" (and hence from the Fundamento):

 * ŝat' estimer | esteem | viel halten, grossen Werth legen | дорожить | cenić, oceniać, szacować.

But you say that "no one can control a living language, so if a meaning changes over time then that happens". If it is the considered view of the Esperanto movement to oppose parts of the Boulogne declaration, e.g. if the Fundamento is not to be considered unendingly binding, then that should be made explicitly clear, because otherwise people will naturally assume that the declaration retains the endorsement of the movement.

Unless you can point out any obvious flaw in the above logic, please could you: Thanks.
 * EITHER: revert the edit to ĉi tiu plaĉas al mi
 * OR: state clearly that you do not fully support the Boulogne declaration, and give some indication whether this is a minority or majority view within the movement

The meaning of gay in English has changed because it is a living language which nobody can control.

--Trainspotter 14:08 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

title: Talk:Esperanto/Archive 1


text:
User:Aggelophoros/Notes

Aggelophoros' Notepad

 * 1) Viotia and Talk:Viotia -- Boeotia
 * 2) What's with the "location" boxes on all of pumpie's edits?
 * 3) List of cities in Greece -- What is a city?
 * 4) WikiProject_Archaeology
 * 5) WikiProject Maps

title: User:Aggelophoros/Notes


text:
Talk:Esperanto/Archive 2

Regulating additions to E-o
Is there any commity that regulates new vocab into esperanto, how is it being kept up to date? (please expand in the page)

 * The Akademio de Esperanto is the body that declares words official, though it tends to follow longstanding existing usage.

for example, who decides what will be the vocalisation for the '@' (Commercial_at in esp?

 * "@" is commonly read as "ĉe" ('chay'), at least in e-mail addresses and the like. --Brion 04:01, 1 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I would give the pronunciation as 'cheh' rather than 'chay' - which suggests a diphthong in English as used in Britain. (I'm never sure how a particular anglicised representation of E-o pronunciation will be interpreted in different English-speaking countries.) No Esperanto vowel should be pronounced as a diphthong. --Tiffer 20:56, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The commat is pronounced as the situation merits, as in other languages: in e-mail addresses, the use of "ĉe" (at) is used; if it is used to mean "at the rate of", the corresponding word "po" is used; etc. -- Kwekubo 22:48, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

In one study, a group of high school students studied Esperanto for one year...
 * A pet peeve of mine in popular writing is the tendency to use phrases such as "studies show" without citing the studies that show this. In this case, the reference is to one particular study, with some details mentioned. What is the study? -- Stephen Gilbert 01:45 Apr 13, 2003 (UTC)

 * Williams, N. (1965) 'A language teaching experiment', Canadian Modern Language Review 22.1: 26-28. (I have not read the study myself. Reference snatched from, which page I just found via google.) --Brion 07:01 Apr 13, 2003 (UTC)

The recent Wikification of the alphabet breaks down on letters not present in English. Please remedy. --cprompt

In view of above comments re the rather limited success in establishing similarities between Esperanto and non-European languages, the comment that "Esperanto has proven to be a good deal easier to learn as a second language than any national language" seems far too sweeping. Unless evidence can be provided that it is generally applicable outside the context of European languages, the assumption must surely be that there are many pairs of non-European languages X,Y for which Y is easier for speakers of X than Esperanto is. I am about to edit that comment to limit its scope to speakers of European languages. --Trainspotter 20:50 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Likewise, removing reference to agglutination / Asian languages. Again, the above discussion seems not to support this assertion but somehow it has remained in the text. (To support assertion, would need to show not only that Asian languages have some agglutination, but that E-o agglutination is *more* similar to that in Asian langs than to that in say German.) --Trainspotter 21:01 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I have strengthened the statement "Esperanto vocabulary is based mainly on European source languages" to "Esperanto vocabulary is based almost exclusively on European source languages". Take for example the Esperanto text of La Espero. I could not find a single word which did not seem to be from a European root. There may be a few words in the language from non-European languages, but if so, then they are so rare as to be curiosities. --Trainspotter 16:52 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Pronunciation
I've corrected and made more consistent the pronunciation models given in the "Examples" section - altering some of them back to what they were before an edit on 26 July. The anonymous contributor then added a useful explanation at the beginning, but at the same time put in the words "dole", "cone" and "tone" as guides to some of the syllables.

It may be that in parts of the US (and perhaps in northern England) these words do indicate the correct pronunciation of the Esperanto "o"; but in southern England they certainly don't - they imply a rather ugly dipthong all too common as a mispronunciation among English-speaking beginners (and some long-standing E-ists!) --Tiffer 21:45, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Criticism and Responses
The recent changes to the Criticism section make the Responses to Criticism require updating. Could someone please do this? I am not yet fluent in Esperanto, and I am no expert linguist. :-) --cprompt 13:26 4 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Why do they need updating? --Chuck SMITH 16:08 4 Jul 2003 (UTC)

How can there even be criticisms of a language? Can we also put up criticisms of English, Spanish, Catalan, Frisian... ? Isn't this a bit offensive to speakers of that language? Especially to those of us who speak it as our primary language? --Chuck SMITH 11:37 5 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Chuck, the criticisms are not meant to be to the existance or usage of the language, but to its viability as an intauxlang. If Frisian or Spanish or Catalan or English were "created" for this purpose, then perhaps we would add similar sections to their articles.--Node 22:01, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I agree that it seems a bit petty. Especially now that we have "criticisms" and "responses to criticisms." Is this a encyclopedia or a debate forum? user:J.J.

Well, the fact that Esperanto is "new" to most people means that they need a reason to accept it. Besides that, Esperanto's goal is to be an international language. The criticisms are whether it is ideal for that purpose. English and Spain strive to be nothing more than the languages spoken in England and Spain. Perhaps these criticisms should be moved to a new article. It could be referenced by Esperanto as "Esperanto is sometimes Criticisms of Esperanto|criticized as not being an ideal international language." In any case, the criticisms kind of made it look like Esperanto was too flawed to be taken seriously. It's a bit more neutral with both sides presented, I think. As Chuck and I were talking about another time, maybe the English article should have criticisms. --cprompt 19:02 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)

La titolo "kritikoj" estis iom miskomprenata. La teksto origine temis ne pri kritikoj de Esperanto en si mem, sed pri la eblaj maladvantaĝoj uzante ĝin kiel internacian lingvon. Poste oni aldonis titolon "kritikoj", kiu ŝajne kompreniĝis havi pli ampleksan signifon ol intencitan (kvankam la artikola teksto - laŭ mi - sufiĉe klare montris pri kio temis). Do mi lastatempe ŝanĝis tiun titolon, por ke iom pli klariĝu la afero, kaj ankaŭ por ke la parolantoj ne sentu sian lingvon entute kritikata... --Trainspotter 10:42 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Translation of above: The title "criticisms" was a bit misunderstood. The text originally was not about criticisms of Esperanto itself, but about the possible disadvantages of using it as an international language. Afterwards, someone added the title "criticisms", which seems to have been understood as having a broader meaning than intended (even though the article itself seemed to show what it was about). So, I've recently changed that title to be a bit more clear so that the speakers would not feel their language to be criticized throughout...

This is the English Wikipedia, please leave comments in English (unless of course you can't write well in English), but you can quote something in Esperanto if you feel that is needed. --Chuck SMITH

There are so-called "criticisms" about any conlang, or, for that matter, any real language. Klingon only has about 3500 words in its total vocabulary (there's no word, for instance, for striped). Most pronouns in English distinguish three cases (nominative "I", accusative "me", genitive "my"), but some distinguish a different three, although some are archaisms (nominative/accusative "what", locative "where", ablative "whence" and allative "whither"). Ubykh uses concrete situations to describe many abstractions (I love you is verbalised as I see you well), and has 83 consonants but just two vowels. French has a highly irregular spelling system (there are only two phonemes in the word gars "guy", but four in the word mars "March"). The fact that I speak all the above languages puts paid to the possibility of my ethnocentrism. In other words, it doesn't matter what the irregularities are, but whether the language is usable, and Esperanto certainly is that. - psendall

I still think the whole part of criticisms and their responses don't belong in the article on Esperanto. Perhaps we could move them to Esperanto as an international language, but it feels like we're leaving the realm of an encyclopedia here... --Chuck SMITH

 * I think to be honest that it has largely arisen out of an article which started out conveying an overall tone of how wonderful Esperanto is. Hence the criticisms were added (hey, if we're going to have advocacy it'd better be both sides of the argument).  Hence of course also the responses to criticisms.  Hence eventually the creation of titled sections once the amount of text warranted it.

 * If it can be pared down to an article without the criticisms/responses then fine. They could be moved to a separate encyclopedia entry, or if more appropriate just a talk page.

 * But please bear in mind that if the pared down article which you (or others) create appears to promote Esperanto then it should be no great surprise if the criticisms are back soon also. For example, beware of simply moving the section about criticism and responses, without considering the tone of the text which remains.

 * (Incidentally, on a minor point, I am reverting the translation of "I like this one" to what I previously wrote. You have written what really means "I highly esteem that one" (notwithstanding neologisms); if it looks cumbersome to an English-speaking person to say "this one is pleasing to me", bear in mind that to a Spanish-speaking person it corresponds exactly to éste me gusta.)

 * --Trainspotter 14:30 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

On the last point, you are correct that the correct translation of éste me gusta is indeed Ĉi tiu plaĉas al mi, but it is not as commonly used as Mi ŝatas ĉi tiun. In any case, we're translating "I like this one" and not "éste me gusta." You'll see that google gives 1830 results for sxatas and 1050 results for placxas. Indeed both phrases are grammatically correct, but ŝatas is used more often and thus should be the translation we provide here. --Chuck SMITH 15:32 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * But is this just a bias of English-speaking Esperantists? I had the impression that ŝatas was used more by English speakers, just because it fitted the same pattern as the English verb "to like", but I'm not sure, as I'm rather out of touch, to be honest... -- Oliver P. 15:48 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Chuck -- Well, I'll leave your translation in place, as you feel strongly enough to reinstate it and I'm not going to get into a pointless edit war. But if your point stands about there being one correct Esperanto translation of "I like this one" and a different correct Esperanto translation of "éste me gusta", despite the fact that the English and Spanish phrases mean the same and are the usual translations of each other, then a textbook in English should list a different Esperanto phrase from a textbook in Spanish for expressing the same concept. This kind of thing would tend to produce effective dialects of Esperanto depending which other language people use to learn it...  (Seems that Oliver P's reference to "English-speaking Esperantists" rather corroborates this.) --Trainspotter 16:17 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Not really - I did say I wasn't sure. That probably means I'm wrong. ;) -- Oliver P. 17:39 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * Indeed, textbooks do indeed have plaĉas. The majority of the people I speak to in Esperanto aren't native English speakers and I don't hear plaĉas very much or not nearly as much as ŝatas and Esperanto has been my primary language for the past year (half a year travelling and now working for TEJO, the World Esperanto Youth Organisation).  I think this is because it's faster and shorter to use ŝatas so the language naturally evolved in that direction.  As I stated, both expressions are acceptable, but I think it's better to list in Wikipedia the one more commonly used.

 * As far as dialects go, the flexibility of Esperanto (which in the article is only said that Esperantists believe it's flexible when it clearly is...grrr) allows different people to express themselves differently, but to still be completely understood. This is one of the reasons why it is "easy".  You're not forced into just one way of saying things...  --Chuck SMITH 16:50 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * I don't think we should give an example using ŝatas in this sense, as it's widely considered to be wrong (no matter how common in colloquial use) and it certainly isn't the intended meaning of the word. The Google search doesn't prove much, as some of those may be correct uses of ŝatas (and using the proper spellings reduces the difference anyway: 1730 for plaĉas and 2310 for ŝatas). --Zundark 20:13 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Oliver -- No, I think you were quite right. There is too much of a tendency to insist on what appears to be easy (possibly in order to present Esperanto as easy to learn) without really coming to terms with the fact that the same phraseology can't be equally intuitive for speakers of different languages, and that if everyone is free to choose what's easiest for them you create some kinds of dialect.

However, the X ŝatas Yn / Y plaĉas al X example is relatively tame, in that the meanings are related, and differences in usage are unlikely to lead to great confusion. But here is a much more severe example: the interpretation of answers to negative questions, e.g. = "Don't you understand?". English speakers are used to the answer "yes" meaning "I do understand". But to a Japanese speaker asking the same question, wakarimasen ka?, hai (meaning yes) would mean "I don't understand" (NB I'm sure of this one, although my knowledge of Japanese is very limited).

Both of these questions would translate simply enough as ĉu vi ne komprenas? But how in Esperanto should the answer be interpreted to this question, or indeed to any statement with ĉu ne? (~ isn't it?) tacked on? Esperanto generally claims to transcend national idiom by choosing the logical usage, e.g. talking about medicines "against" rather than "for" a disease. The logical use here is surely that given a statement with ĉu to make it a question, then jes means you agree with the statement.

I did a quick google, on "cxu vi ne" jes. Top of the list was a chapter of Gerda malaperis, a prominent Esperanto work. The usage found in it was in the European sense of "don't you agree?" "yes" meaning I do agree. I can think of various explanations, none of them particularly flattering: Which is it, or what have I missed?
 * The usage in Gerda malaperis is simply wrong, despite it being a prominent work.
 * The usage is correct, given that it is written by a European, but it would not be the dialect used by Japanese-speaking Esperantists.
 * The usage is correct for everyone. Despite all protestations of non-Euro-centricity, and choosing logical over idiomatic usage, European idiom is chosen over logical usage.

--Trainspotter 08:45 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * I never actually was sure of what the reply meant in English, so I see Esperanto as having the same "ambiguity problem" as English... --Chuck SMITH

In ReVo (Reta Vortaro):

''Rim.: En la tradicia lingvouzo (tiu de Zamenhof kaj PIV) ?ŝati? indikas pli altan estimon ol ?ami?; sed en la reala lingvo moderna la situacio estas inversa: ?ŝati? sence proksimas al ?plaĉi? (sed kun alia regado), dum la praan sencon oni preferas esprimi per nova verbo (aprezi aŭ apreci).''

So therefore the meaning has indeed changed over time and there's even examples I've seen of Zamenhof using it like the English "to like". But, I'm sick of arguing about this stupid sentence, so if you really want ĉi tiu plaĉas al mi then go ahead and put it back in there. Like I said before, they're both equally valid, but Mi ŝatas ĉi tiun is more commonly used.

 * I do not insist on "plaĉas", but "ŝatas" should be seen its proper context of ne-fundamenta. I have actually reinstated "ŝatas", despite some anonymous edit to the contrary, given the ReVo quote and your saying that it is majority usage, but have added a section on language evolution saying that departure from the Fundamento is now considered okay.

 * --Trainspotter 11:54 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Actually, I was wrong about people not being able to control living languages. Several times language academies decide on spelling reforms for different languages like what happened in German a few years ago, so it is possible to "control" a living language.

A sidenote: do you ever work in the Esperanto Wikipedia? It would be nice if you could polish that article on Esperanto. It really needs a lot of work! Thanks, Chuck SMITH 01:07 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 * And no shortage of other people over there who can do it...
 * --User:Trainspotter (not logged in just now)

Just a minor thing: I've corrected my example Ĝis la revido -> Ĝis revido, this being the appropriate form when one doesn't know of a specific meeting-again (e.g.in the envisaged context of a tourist leaving a shop). --Trainspotter 09:02 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Sexist?
An anonymous user added this to the response to the criticism that Esperanto is sexist. (Note that this is not a proper response to the argument; this is merely an excuse.)

I felt it was better for the talk page than the article. --cprompt 21:05 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I have removed the following bit, because I don't consider it suitable for an encyclopedia entry. DiruWiki 15:21, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

 * The Ethnologue data may need to be treated with caution, as on their web page they incorrectly categorize Esperanto as a language of France, and also give -al as a dative ending (not quite correct; al is a separate word meaning "to").

Also, maybe someone can rewrite the reply to 'Esperanto is sexist' to take reference to accusation. Fact that Esperanto only declares the feminines (there's nothing to make knabo male, but the in in knabino to make it feminine). IMHO you can't do awyay with this, because Esperanto is sexist - just like most languages. DiruWiki 15:31, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)
 * The current state of affairs is that words like boy, man, king, uncle and such are treated as masculine inherently, and take the -in- to make them feminine. Put ge- in front instead and the word is neutral.

 * More or less all other person-words, like editor, runner, murderer, are taken as neutral. Again, you add -in- to make them feminine. In practice, one very rarely comes across the need to make the second group masculine, and when you have to you just use vir- (man) as a prefix. Kwekubo 19:46, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Can I point out that it's not a question of "masculine" and "feminine" (which are grammatical forms not used in Esperanto) but male and female? People not familiar with E-o reading this might imagine that it has gender in the same way as French or Latin, which it absolutely does not.

The suffix "-ino" simply signifies a female animal or person - in the same way as "-isto" signifies a person of a particular occupation - with no grammatical implications whatsoever. The prefix "ge-" is usually described as referring to a group that includes both sexes, which rather implies that it can't be used in the singular. There is something of an argument as to whether you can use the word "gepatro", for example, to mean "parent".

The question of sexism is another one, of course, and all we can say is that equivalent constructs occur in English ("-ess") and in most ethnic languages. Maybe E-o would have been different in this respect had it been developed today; but to me it seems an isolated case of the language reflecting attitudes from the era when it was created, and it's a feature that can't lightly be changed.

--Tiffer 18:58, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

title: Talk:Esperanto/Archive 2


text:
Talk:Esperanto/Archive 3

"Esperanto" or "Esperanto Language"?
I am moving the page back to "Esperanto" from "Esperanto language". It's my impression that articles like "English language" and "Spanish language" are done that way for disambiguation. People say that they are eating a French dish, that they are German, or that they're watching Spanish television. Hebrew needs a Hebrew language counterpart because the Bible refers to people as "Hebrews". This disambiguation is not necessary for Esperanto. --cprompt 17:16, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)
 * It is WikiProject Languages policy that all language pages are to be on a page called XXX language, because as you note, it is necessary for disambiguation, but also for consistency. viz Esperanto culture Esperanto history Esperanto flag Esperanto film Esperanto literature Esperanto music. I'm moving it back to Esperanto language. If you disagree with the policy, discuss it on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Languages --Nohat 20:27, 2004 Jan 29 (UTC)
 * I'll take a step back on this one, because there is an established policy. Nearly every conlang I've seen is not suffixed with "language", take Ido for example. I will not move any more language pages to one way or the other; as long as Esperanto exists as a redirect if not the actual article.
 * --cprompt 02:42, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * I've moved the article back to Esperanto. Is common sense dead or something? Jeez. --Brion 07:10, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * Brion, it's an established policy. Similar conflicts are happening at Inuktitut (vs. Inuktitut language). If you disagree with the policy, it can be discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Languages.--Node 22:01, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * Nohat's policy is not an established policy. It is in violation of established policy. --Zundark 07:31, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * Yes, it is an established policy.

 * No, it is not. Creating a WikiProject page and putting ones own opinions on it does not make those opinions an established policy.

 * Just how is it in violation of established policy? Nohat is a very respectable user and I do not see Nohat as the kind of person who would violate established policy.

 * For example, Inuktitut is usually known as Inuktitut and there isn't anything else known as Inuktitut, so according to established policy it should go on the Inuktitut page. Nohat's policy says otherwise.

 * I know that I would probably've gotten into a fight with you, moving things back without a detailed discussion, but Nohat decided it was best to leave it as a non-issue for the time being and wait until a later time.

 * I don't know what you're talking about here. When I removed Nohat's policy from WikiProject Languages he put it back the very same day. You can see this in the edit history (30 Jan 2004). There was no edit war because I, not Nohat, decided it was best to leave it.

 * Also note what cpromt said.--Node 04:01, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * cprompt seems to have been misled by the fact that Nohat called his policy a "Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages policy", which gave the impression that there was some sort of consensus about it. --Zundark 08:35, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)

External links; Slang and E-o in France
I created the Lernu! article (pretty much parallels the one at the Esperanto Wikipedia), but I don't know how I should link this article to it. Any ideas? --cprompt 03:11, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

Who uses the slang word luton? I spoke Esperanto as my primary language for two years and have never run into anyone who has ever used it? --Chuck SMITH 00:17, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

Given the information on Ethnologue is completely flawed and misleading (Esperanto is NOT a language of France!), I have removed that external link, and replaced it by the very informative "Update on Esperanto" by UEA. Marcoscramer 13:42, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

National/Natural/Ethnic languages
Ĉu oni diskutas en E-o pri ĉi tiu temo?

Just made some changes - particularly that LLZ lived in Warsaw at the time he published La Unua Libro; but also, among others, a reference to "National Languages" to conform to an earlier use of the term "Natural Language" (for which a Wiki already exists).

For my own part, I prefer to use the term "Ethnic Language", because neither "national" (languages don't conform to state boundaries) nor "natural" (E-o seems just as natural to me as English, and certainly more so than an unfamiliar language) is satisfactory IMO. The trouble is that there is already a page with the title "Natural language", as referred to above. Do people see the distinction as real? Can we change the title of the "Natural language" page? --Tiffer 20:36, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Esperanto belongs to the Esperantists; Stability
Really? The reform project by Zamenhof breaks the stability. On the other hand, some say that the reforms were planned to be so outrageous to ensure a rejection from the Esperantists. That would break the "belongs to the Esperantists". -- Error 00:43, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

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Talk:'t Hooft–Polyakov monopole

not just SU(2) to U(1) Phys 03:42, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"clarification of the "monopole problem"
Technically, the "monopole problem" is not that we haven't discovered monopoles yet. The "monopole problem" instead refers to the cosmological implications of grand unification (GUTS). Since monopoles are generically on the menu in GUTS and since they are expected to be quite massive, their existence in the early universe threatens to overclose it. This was considered a "problem" with the standard big bang theory. Cosmic inflation remedies the situation by diluting any primordial abundance of magnetic monopoles (see the wikipedia cosmic inflation page for a discussion of this).- bapowellphysics 18:06, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Mass / experimental search ???
Hi, a professor I have for a class said this monopole solution could possibly be discovered by the Large Hadron Collidor. He said the mass is approximently equal to the Mass of the W boson dived by alpha (fine structure constant) ~10TeV. However, I'm not an expert, and I haven't been able to find any sources to back up this claim. I did find out that there is indeed a dedicated monopole detection experiment at the LHC (see the info at MoEDAL_experiment). I think it would be very useful if someone could write a section about experimental searches for this monopole. Regards Danski14(talk) 23:01, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

You mean this? Mind you, this is search for any kind of monopole but as far as I know the detector signature only depends on the charge and the velocity (proton decay cannot be facilitated at these velocities as far as I know) so we have no way to separate Dirac from Polyakov monopoles at the moment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_monopole#Searches_for_magnetic_monopolesP91 (talk) 18:26, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:'t Hooft–Polyakov monopole


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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Minnesota State University Mankato riot

Minnesota State University Mankato riot
Non-notable event that doesn't meet standard of having an encyclopdia entry. It had no deaths, was not famous (in the field of higher education/social science or otherwise) and apparently had no lasting effect of importance. It's not any different from thousands of riots that go without mention ever again shortly after. DreamGuy 03:46, Dec 5, 2004 (UTC)

 * Delete. Drunk college students riot all the time. Gamaliel 03:51, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete: Not a particularly notable riot (not that they should try harder), but it was, I'm sure, huge news in Mankato, which is not a city known for big goings on. (I really enjoyed the city when I visited, but it was deep December, 4' of snow on the ground, and Mankato was the only place with shopping near St. Peter.)  Geogre 15:06, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. I've been to a number of more intersting riots than this one and they're not listed on Wiki, nor should they be. Wyss 19:25, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Riots are fascinating events that always at least locally notable, and they can tell a great deal about a society. Everyking 20:49, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete - U-Michigan has had several riots of more note than this. Perhaps the article originator could include it on the MSU-Mankato page instead. A2Kafir 22:57, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * My school riots (fairly violently sometimes, too) every Saturday that there's a home football game, whether we win or lose. Of course, we also throw tortillas at sporting events, so go figure. A riot for rioting's sake is just an oversized party that happens to be outside the building. Delete. Inky 00:28, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete - College students riot all the time. Spangineer 04:50, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete Worthless. There are college riots all the time and even if there is, there is nothing special about it [[User:Squash|Squash (Talk)]] 09:58, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)


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User:HiFlyer

--HiFlyer 03:47, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)"The only place you and I disagree . . . is with regard to the bombing. You're so goddamned concerned about the civilians, and I (in contrast) don't give a damn. I don't care.". . . "I'd rather use the nuclear bomb. . . Does that bother you? I just want you to think big." : Richard Nixon to Secretary of State Henry Kissinger on the Watergate tapes.

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