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Talk:Alchemical symbol

Untitled
I added some elements/compunds from Image:Alchemy-Digby-RareSecrets.png, though I'm not sure if I put them in the right lists, any alchemy experts care to look over these? Thanks — Boffy b 10:27, 30 November 2004 (UTC)

Planetary Symbols?
Should we add the symbols for the planets here? They're clearly related. — Ashley Y 02:56, 28 March 2005 (UTC)

 * I've added these for the "7 Planetary Metals." — Fourthgeek 05:59, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

 * all of the symbols are consistent with the symbols i've found in the tree of life. include some sort of connection somewhere with the ten sphered map of the tree of life, it would be helpful in any future research they have. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.4.92.243 (talk) 08:36, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

 * There already is a page on astronomical symbols, a link to that page would be preferable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.63.55.81 (talk) 18:13, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Fourthgeek's changes
I've pretty much changed everything about this article from when I started. I'm still working to add more symbols. Comments welcome. — Fourthgeek 04:59, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

 * Great job! It was very helpful for my research. I couldn't see the Magnesium symbol very well. There is a big list of alchemical symbols at the following GIF: http://www.tekedo.com/Company/scheele2d.gif — Roie (talk) 00:47, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I Love This Science!
I may be only 13 but I love alcheny. It is so cool and intertaining. Some people think it is either satanic or retarted. But it isn't. I love the element of it, and it just bets my adrenilin pumpin. It is a great science to study and get excited about! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.139.215.199 (talk) 02:31, 11 April 2007 (UTC).

'''The only thing that I see to be wrong in your paragraph is the simple fact that this isn't cool. Alchemy was meant to be serious because of the fact that it could become extremely harmful if the process wasn't in the correct order. This isn't FMA where you can come back with metal limbs and have special powers of some sort. So, please, don't attempt to do any experiments without someone who is licensed in this kind of area.'''

Well, it's actually a pseudo-science, or proto-science if you prefer. Not Satanic (whatever that means) of course. Most alchemists where Christians, Jews and Muslims in Europe and the Middle East and Buddhists, Taoists etc. in Asia. It was pretty stupid though--based upon a false understanding of the nature of matter. All that messing about with chemicals did lead to the eventual creation of the science known as chemistry (and black powder and Greek fire centuries before that), so alchemy wasn't a total waste of time. --McFarty 04:38, 5 September 2007 (UTC)McFarty

I'm curious was the use of symbols during their studies (such as in their notes on how to perform experiments) so that no one else could understand them outside of those who already would have understand them and they could claim credit for whatever it was they were attempting to do, or was it due to persecution, or something entirely different? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.220.158.143 (talk) 00:15, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Um ... Actually, Alchemy wasn't really all that "stupid". The term "proto-science" is a good description (first time I've seen the term used; I like it). We all know you can't turn Lead into Gold without a nuclear reaction, but only because we've been told. Both are very similar: soft, metallic, exists in an unoxidized form. Even the other proto-science of Astrology (from wich came Astronomy) started with basic observations, such as the seasons getting colder when the big glowing thing in the sky didn't move as far across the sky (or various stars were in certain positions at certain times of day meant the monsoon season was coming). Those two proto-sciences only became psuedo-sciences when people continued at them despite the science being shown as flawed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.4.155.39 (talk) 09:20, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Carbon
Was there a symbol for carbon (or charcoal, etc)

Interesting there is one for Bismuth, which was not actually discovered until alchemy was mostly dead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.185.238.59 (talk) 03:23, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The seven planetary metals
From the article: "Some modern alchemists consider the symbols for these planets to represent the radioactive metals Uranium, Neptunium and Plutonium, respectively"

This (to me) raises the question: There are modern alchemists? like me Communisthamster (talk) 16:20, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Not really, I mean, yes, but not in the same sense as there used to be back then. Since chemistry is so succesful there is no need for Alchemists. There is a market for the philosophy of Alchemists, though every single alchemical text is pretty unreliable. They all contradict each other, which makes (again) chemistry more apealing. The only "Alchemists" that exist today are the ones triying to sell their knoledge in 3 easy payments of 99.99, or the ones writting pretty inacurate esoterical texts.--142.68.53.38 (talk) 22:32, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Missing a lot. Mostly have 'planet & zodiac signs' but alchemic symbols *extend* upon these types.
Many alchemical substances are missing that were represented by symbols, and nearly all variations of alchemic "products" represented by symbols are missing as well. Not to mention types of processes that are modified zodiac symbols, not the simple zodiac glyphs themselves. here are some process symbols. here too, more process symbols basic metals, some alternate metals, substances, (e.g. glass, substrate of copper), bismuth, magnesium, antimony, even platinum and here.. basic symbols. and those continued. also see here, some random more complex ones, even more. list of highly specific aspect symbology to more general alchemical concepts, and similar, small, difficult to make out, small example of symbols for processes, symbols meaning "at that time" or process resulting in 'red fire' etc, thumbnail of such, microcosm / macrocosm alchemic symbol. set of symbols, another set

Certainly, a work producing an exhaustive list exists on this subject that is likely better than what I have above from an internet search can be sourced. A book on the topic. This article has so much potential because so much more history is actually there than here currently displayed.

What we need are individuals to redraw and upload said images free of copyright violation from a comprehensive work on the subject. Nagelfar (talk) 09:50, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Unicode ?
The Character Map on Ubuntu says Unicode U+26A8 is ferrous iron sulfate (⚨), and unicode U+26A9 is Magnesium (⚩). This seems to differ slightly from what we've got up. 72.207.248.117 (talk) 22:14, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

 * Unicode changed those identities after people objected that they were wrong, and they found they didn't have any RS's for them. — kwami (talk) 21:01, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Unicode does not render on my Firefox version 31
The Unicode characters appear as rectangular boxes containing hexadecimal codes on my Firefox version 31 in Windows 8. On Opera they appear as blank boxes. The article page links to Help:Special characters but that does not help fix the problem, see Help talk:Special characters. What is needed are clear working instructions that allow readers to display Unicode fonts on these pages. -84user (talk) 18:19, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

"Miscellaneous" Unicode symbols
What purpose does the table of miscellaneous symbols (underneath the table of Unicode alchemical symbols) serve? A few of them may be related to alchemy, but the majority of them aren't, so I don't understand why it's there. I just want to confirm if there's a reason before removing it. -- Joyful spherical creature (talk) 22:40, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I think it's OK to remove them. They aren't sourced anywhere, and I'm pretty certain the protoscientific alchemists knew didn't know of lithium or magnesium. Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 17:10, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Other meanings for the seven planetary metals?
I remember reading that the symbols for the seven planetary metals also had number and color meanings:

Saturn; Lead; Black; 1

Jupiter; Tin; Blue; Moon; Silver; White; 3

Mercury; Mercury; Violet; 4

Mars; Iron; Red; 5

Venus; Copper; Green; 6

Sun; Gold; Golden; 7

Is there any reliable source backing these connections up? I remember a connection to John Dee's The Hieroglyphic Monad (1564)--2606:A000:7D44:100:4577:8946:6B83:6C28 (talk) 18:51, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

 * I believe there have been several color associations, which don't all agree, but don't know the details. The ones you listed make sense, though: iron rusts to red, copper to green, and black fits with ponderousness. I don't know about Jupiter or Mercury, though. — kwami (talk) 21:00, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Dee's The Hieroglyphic Monad is available at Archive.org here. Nothing leaps off the page in a quick scan. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 00:05, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

 * The number associations for the planets/metals are all cabalistic: if you look at a Tree of Life, the Sefiroth are all numbered from 1 to 10, descending from the Fixed Stars and the Zodiac, down through the seven Classical planets.
 * Nuttyskin (talk) 19:40, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Magnesium
I removed ⚩ as a supposed symbol for magnesium because it was unsourced. The identity appeared in Unicode 5 but was retracted by Unicode 6. I contacted Unicode to ask why, and they said that they didn't have a good source, as in the proposal to add the symbol to Unicode it was only sourced to a popular general account of symbols, and they now believe that author got it wrong. They removed the claim, along with several others, after they received objections by experts in the field, likely from the Newton Chymistry Project. — kwami (talk) 20:58, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

 * Retelling your personal off-WP conversation(s) is not WP:RS, it's WP:OR. One of the cites you removed, giving that very symbol, was in fact from "The Chymistry of Isaac Newton" Project's webpages at Indiana University ( http://chymistry.org resolves to https://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/newton ): https://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/newton/fonts/Alchemy%20Unicode%20Proposal---March%2031%202009.pdf
 * I had over four days earlier (05:03 15 April) asked you, at User talk:.Raven, "are you able to cite and link an RS of that retraction?" You never answered there. The above I take as your "No." – . Raven .talk 02:16, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Look up the current Unicode chart. No "magnesium". Look up that Newton Chymistry link. No "magnesium". If you don't like my personal anecdotes, then you can ask Unicode yourself, but meanwhile you don't have a single RS that this symbol means magnesium. And, given the hundreds of alchemical symbols out there, no reason to think this one would be notable even if it did.
 * And I still wonder about your second, apparently fake reference. Where in all that verbiage does it say that this symbol means 'magnesium'? — kwami (talk) 02:27, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Once again: "Proposal for Alchemical Symbols in Unicode" by William R. Newman, John A. Walsh, Stacy Kowalczyk, Wallace E. Hooper, Tamara Lopez. Indiana University, March 6, 2009: https://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/newton/fonts/Alchemy%20Unicode%20Proposal---March%2031%202009.pdf – page 11, character 26A9 (2nd from the bottom of the page): ⚩ — "= magnesium (alchemy and older chemistry)" — I had copied-and-pasted it from that PDF, and cited that PDF. You deleted it for "spurious sources". – . Raven .talk 02:42, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * As I've pointed out to you multiple times, that's a reference to Unicode 5: it's an item in Table 1, "Existing Coverage of Alchemical Symbols in Unicode." Well, it's not existing coverage any more. — kwami (talk) 03:08, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * &#x26A9; still produces ⚩. That's what I just typed now to get it. – . Raven .talk 04:54, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Do we have adequate reason to include ⚩ as an alchemical symbol for 'magnesium'?
Do we have adequate reason to include ⚩ as an alchemical symbol for 'magnesium'? There are two references. The first one is a reference to Unicode 5; by Unicode 6, the identity of ⚩ as 'magnesium' had been retracted. (I contacted Unicode about this: see previous thread.) And, of course, Unicode definitions are not a RS for alchemy, only for Unicode. The second ref appears to be a smoke-screen, with no mention of the symbol. At best, it appears to be a tenuous OR chain trying to equate magnesium with magnesia. — kwami (talk) 02:40, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

 * And, of course, kwami had also deleted another ref:
 * Cf. item 8, "Magnesia" in this chart from
 * The "this chart" was, as it happens, the same chart kwami had added to the article. See that eighth item down. If it's not an RS, why did kwami add it?

 * Where, oh where, is kwami's RS for that claimed "retraction"? – . Raven .tal :k 02:49, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * That symbol might be a variant of <⚩>, I can't tell. But even if so, it's for "magnesia", not "magnesium". Those are two different things, as you know full well. As for the retraction, try here. (I expected you to be able to look up a Unicode character by yourself.) Come on, cut the BS. Where is there a single RS that <⚩> is the alchemical symbol for "magnesium"? — kwami (talk) 03:01, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * As you know full well, the pure metal magnesium was not isolated until 1808.
 * What alchemists had available to them was the salt, called "magnesia alba" – and you also removed those refs:
 * [RS; Leonardo da Vinci medal-winner, previously cited multiple times on en-WP.]
 * [RS; this author has previously been cited over 60 times on en-WP.]
 * But these and Reutter de Rosemont (whose chart you posted ) are what you deleted as "spurious sources". – . Raven .talk 03:19, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * But you're not claiming that ⚩ is magnesia alba, you're claiming it's magnesium. And even if you were to change that to magnesia alba, you haven't provided a source for that either that I can see, just that a symbol which looks rather similar is reported to be "magnesia", which might be any of the five substances mentioned by Pliny for all we know. — kwami (talk) 03:33, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * You didn't follow the magnesia alba link, did you? First sentence: "Magnesium oxide (MgO), or magnesia, is a white hygroscopic solid mineral that occurs naturally as periclase and is a source of magnesium (see also oxide)."
 * Cf. Magnesia: • Magnesium oxide / [indented] • Periclase or magnesia, a natural mineral of magnesium oxide
 * If you had tried what Pliny would have called magnesia nigra, you'd have read: "In the 16th century, manganese dioxide was called manganesum (note the two Ns instead of one) by glassmakers, possibly as a corruption and concatenation of two words, since alchemists and glassmakers eventually had to differentiate a magnesia nigra (the black ore) from magnesia alba (a white ore, also from Magnesia, also useful in glassmaking). Michele Mercati called magnesia nigra manganesa, and finally the metal isolated from it became known as manganese (German: Mangan). The name magnesia eventually was then used to refer only to the white magnesia alba (magnesium oxide), which provided the name magnesium for the free element when it was isolated much later ."
 * ... Oh, but Wikipedia itself is not RS, so see the sources, like the one footnoted at the end of that last paragraph: — the relevant paragraph being the third one under the heading "The Metals and Their Properties".
 * More?
 * Magnesia n. "(alchem.) ingredient of the philosophers' stone," s.v. Magnesia OED.
 * — Glossary at Harvard's Geoffrey Chaucer Website, Last modified: Nov 20, 2008 Copyright © The President and Fellows of Harvard College
 * mag·ne·sia / noun ᴄʜᴇᴍɪsᴛʀʏ / noun: magnesia / magnesium oxide . / • hydrated magnesium carbonate used as an antacid and laxative. / late Middle English (referring to a mineral said to be an ingredient of the philosopher's stone): via medieval Latin from Greek Magnēsia, denoting a mineral from Magnesia in Asia Minor.
 * — Oxford Dictionaries [provided by Google; try googling define magnesia]
 * magnesia in American English / (mægˈniʒə ; mægniʃə ) / noun / 1. magnesium oxide, MgO, a white, tasteless powder, used as a mild laxative and antacid, and as an insulating substance, in firebrick, etc. / 2. hydrated magnesium carbonate, also used as a laxative / ModL magnesia (alba), lit., (white) magnesia....
 * — Webster’s New World College Dictionary, 4th Edition. Copyright © 2010 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. All rights reserved.
 * Magnesium, mag-nē′shi-um, or -si-um, n. a metal of a bright, silver-white colour, which while burning gives a dazzling white light, and forms magnesia .—n. Magnē′sia, a light white powder, got by burning magnesium, used as a medicine.
 * — Chambers's Twentieth-Century Dictionary (1908), Part 2 of 4, E–M
 * At a certain point, it becomes disingenuous to deny the term's referent. – . Raven .talk 04:35, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * For the sake of clarity, changing the entry to: "Magnesia (alba), source of later magnesium" – . Raven .talk 05:26, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * You still have no source for your claim. — kwami (talk) 07:02, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * You haven't read the Magnesium article, either: "The metal itself was first isolated by Sir Humphry Davy in England in 1808. He used electrolysis on a mixture of  magnesia  and mercuric oxide." *
 *  *
 * (Specifically, pp. 109-116, in the Collected Works version linked above, cover the extraction of the metal he calls "magnium" from – and its subsequent oxidation into – the white powdery material he calls " magnesia ": [p. 115] "It sank rapidly in water, though surrounded by globules of gas, producing magnesia, and quickly changed in air, becoming covered with a white crust, and falling into a fine powder, which proved to be magnesia .")
 * Oxidized "magnium" (now "magnesium") is what material? (Bonus question: what gas were those "globules"?)
 * For modern industrial processes to extract magnesium from magnesium oxide (MgO), see Magnesium and Magnesium. –  . Raven .talk 08:44, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Why are all sources inline? Why not use footnoting ref? DePiep (talk) 09:49, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * This isn't an article, & I was commenting on the cited book. –  . Raven .talk 00:03, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * This RfC could use a recap. Also, stop useing "as you wrote" and "as you know" constructs. Wikipedia is nor a RS, nor are such personal references. IOW, keep the argumerntation clean, don't leave it to others to destill sense. DePiep (talk) 09:51, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * In this case, the asker had previously seen (and deleted) text including the metal-isolated-in-1808 detail, which was linked to Magnesium – the same section from which I quoted at the top of the paragraph you're replying to. – . Raven .talk 00:20, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * "You haven't read" is not a relevant contribution, . DePiep (talk) 11:09, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
 * That the asker had not read the links they deleted as "fv spurious sources" (they later marked them "failed verification" and "citation needed" – marks still in the present version) brings up an epistemological question: how did they know the sources were "spurious" or had "failed verification" without having read them? IOW, those marks are utterly unfounded. – . Raven .talk 00:28, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Time's passed. Q. Oxidized "magnium" (now "magnesium") is what material? A. Magnesium oxide (MgO), a.k.a. magnesia. [Bonus] Q. What gas were those "globules"? A. Hydrogen, what's left of water (H2O) when the oxygen has been taken away to oxidize magnesium. This, by the way, is why you can't put a magnesium fire out with water (nor with a CO2 extinguisher!), it will just keep oxidizing=burning, and the released hydrogen can then also burn when it hits fresh oxygen in the air; you need to smother it with sand or a Class D "dry" extinguisher to deprive it of oxygen. – [more sources available if required or requested] –  . Raven .talk 17:46, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * That the asker had not read the links they deleted as "fv spurious sources" (they later marked them "failed verification" and "citation needed" – marks still in the present version) brings up an epistemological question: how did they know the sources were "spurious" or had "failed verification" without having read them? IOW, those marks are utterly unfounded. – . Raven .talk 00:28, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Time's passed. Q. Oxidized "magnium" (now "magnesium") is what material? A. Magnesium oxide (MgO), a.k.a. magnesia. [Bonus] Q. What gas were those "globules"? A. Hydrogen, what's left of water (H2O) when the oxygen has been taken away to oxidize magnesium. This, by the way, is why you can't put a magnesium fire out with water (nor with a CO2 extinguisher!), it will just keep oxidizing=burning, and the released hydrogen can then also burn when it hits fresh oxygen in the air; you need to smother it with sand or a Class D "dry" extinguisher to deprive it of oxygen. – [more sources available if required or requested] –  . Raven .talk 17:46, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

The de Rosemont symbol for magnesia can be seen here, plate 4 after page 261. I didn't know at first if the difference between the de Rosemont symbol and Liungman's ⚩ might just be just an extraneous blot of ink or a Xerox artefact, but from this cleaner image it's clear that it's not ⚩. (It's possible that Liungman's ⚩ is a misreading of the de Rosemont symbol -- they don't provide a source -- but that's idle speculation at this point.)

So, (a) we don't know if the de Rosemont symbol is for magnesium alba, magnesium nigra or both, and (b) it looks like it's not our symbol anyway. So, yeah, fails verification. — kwami (talk) 20:39, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

 * > "(a) we don't know if the de Rosemont symbol is for magnesium alba, magnesium nigra or both" – A few errors there. Just above you'd insisted on the difference between "magnesium" and "magnesia", but here you use the wrong word twice. Louis Ruetter de Rosemont calls it "Magnesi a ", the same word Davy uses for magnesium oxide (which is white, hence the "alba"). "Magnesia nigra" is the mineral from which manganese is derived. As above-linked Magnesia nigra has already been quoted to tell you, by the time the word "magnesia" was used without a color-adjective, it referred to the "alba" variety, magnesium oxide, because the "nigra" variety was already being called by a different name, "manganesum". So, yes, we do know to which material LRdR's symbol referred.
 * > "(b) it looks like it's not our symbol anyway." – Because the tiny upper 'barb' of the arrowhead is missing? That's the big difference? Scribal carelessness or printing error (perhaps even just on this copy) could easily account for that. We see greater differences between renditions of other symbols, for instance the 45-degree rotation of 🝋 for Pulvis even within LRdR's chart, and note how many cross-strokes are on the stem in the Unicode symbol (2) vs. LRdR's (3). Is Unicode "wrong" or is LRdR, or are those accepted variants? –  . Raven .talk 01:03, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * You're engaging in OR. Nowhere do we see it's specifically magnesia alba. By 1932 that was probably the case, but Rosemont doesn't say what era the symbol comes from, so we can't know it was recent enough. Anyway, it's contradicted by your original source, which claimed it was magnesium. Perhaps you can scour Rosemont's text and find a more specific description, but a simple table doesn't provide enough info to draw such conclusions. Doing so would be OR.
 * If we had a RS that ⚩ was magnesia, then it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that Rosemont's symbol was the same. But we don't. And it's not just a missing barb due to a printer's error: there's an additional element, perhaps something like Mercury's cup, at the top of the cross bar. Such small details are sometimes all that separates symbols with different meanings. For example, 🜉 means 'alcohol'. Rotate it, and it means 'gold'. Add an extra ring, and it means 'horse manure'. That's why the Newton Chymistry Project is so careful with their identification of variant glyphs. If the symbol ⚩ were in any way notable, we should be able to find RS's for it. And if it's not notable, there's no reason to include it here: we don't bother including thousands of other non-notable alchemical symbols. What makes this one so special that it has to be included, despite us not knowing what it represents or what it's supposed to look like? — kwami (talk) 01:58, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * This is neither rotated nor has such a major difference as an added ring. As I pointed out above, Pulvis 🝋 differs between Unicode and LRdR in the number of cross-strokes on the stem (2 vs. 3), and LRdR even shows it twice with a 45° rotation difference – representing the same thing every time. So acceptable variants do exist.
 * > "That's why the Newton Chymistry Project is so careful with their identification of variant glyphs. If the symbol ⚩ were in any way notable, we should be able to find RS's for it." – You cite the Newton Chymistry Project yourself; clearly you regard it as RS. But you deleted that PDF from the Newton Chymistry Project (which included that symbol as 26A9, 2nd from the bottom on p.11) as a "spurious source". Would you please make up your mind? – . Raven .talk 03:13, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * > "... it's contradicted by your original source, which claimed it was magnesium." – Magnesium oxide IS magnesium, oxidated: "burnt magnesium" it's sometimes called. It's not manganese. – . Raven .talk 04:02, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * You're not paying attention. You repeatedly debunk things that were never claimed. Would you please read what you respond to, so that your responses bear some relevance to the discussion? — kwami (talk) 06:46, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Would you please read the sources you delete as "fv (spurious sources)" or mark as [failed verification ][citation needed ]? You can't have tried to "verify" something you didn't read.
 * And would you please try to be consistent? You've repeatedly claimed to base your argument on something stated by the Newton Chymistry Project – though you've never linked an RS of that statement, only alleged off-WP conversations – but you've also repeatedly deleted an actual linked cite of a PDF actually at the Newton Chymistry Project's website (one of those sources you called "spurious"). Is it an RS or not? – . Raven .talk 15:03, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * > "You're engaging in OR." - I'm citing the published results of other people's research, from as far back as 1808. You've thumped private offline conversation(s) you claim to have had but never given a verifiable RS for the statements you allege were made in them, despite my repeated requests; and that's WP:OR, if anything is – "The phrase 'original research' (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist." Example: citing "I contacted Unicode to ask why, and they said ..." – amounts to hearsay, since no-one else can verify your off-WP conversations. – . Raven .talk 15:48, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * And now you have deleted as "false claims" Sir Humphry Davy's 1808 report of isolating "magnium" (magnesium) from "magnesia" (magnesium oxide) – also previously cited without dispute in Magnesium – clearly not "false claims" in any sane interpretation. If you want that source removed, justify its deletion in discussion, rather than edit-warring with such blatantly false edit-comments. – . Raven .talk 03:57, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Incidentally,   "de Rosemont symbol for magnesia" can be seen here, plate 3 after page 261, i.e. the plate just   the plate you said held   "de Rosemont symbol for magnesia". Fifth item in the middle column, M-shaped, with a small circle at the base of the left stem. Again we see more than one symbol for the same concept. – . Raven .talk 00:13, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

RfC process

 * I call broken process. this signals editwarring, before RfC closure or even sight of resolvence. Already, I have asked for proper talkflow (eg source ref usage, no personal bf addressing). This needs uninvolved guidance. Without changes, admin ruling comes in sight. Incidentally: the discussion is not to follow let alone contributed to by third epersons. -DePiep (talk) 10:55, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Manganese
I have changed "* Manganese (in Bergman)" to "* Manganesa/-um (magnesia nigra), source of later manganese  (in Bergman)" ... because (as stated in Manganese) the pure metal "manganese" was not isolated until 1774; before that, alchemists knew the less pure, compound, forms under the older names. – . Raven .talk 19:44, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

... but now you say Which time should we believe you, since you didn't link your source either time? Undoing the above edit, which made a citationless claim, i.e. WP:OR; going by the original file, which at least a source. – . Raven .talk 22:36, 23 April 2023 (UTC) That's right: a metal's ' calx ' is its oxide – as in the case of manganese's calx (♆) what's been called 'magnesia nigra' or later 'manganesum' or 'manganesa', actually a group of several oxides – just as 'magnesia alba' or later simply 'magnesia' refers to oxidated ('burnt') magnesium, MgO, found as the mineral periclase or even in the magnesite MgCO3 from which MgO can be extracted by heating with charcoal... and as, more familiarly to most people, 'rust' refers to iron oxide, Fe2O3. We just don't usually call 'rust' a 'metal', precisely because of that oxidation, but the metallic element is in there, and it can be isolated. – . Raven .talk 10:38, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * And I reverted you because once again you're engaging in OR rather than following the sources. Bergman workeh after that date, and this is specifically manganese metal. Possibly it doesn't belong in this article, as it's arguably early chemistry rather than alchemy. — kwami (talk) 20:39, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * How odd: you yourself, when creating that image file, stated: "alchemical symbol for manganese in Bergman 1775"
 * "... this is specifically manganese metal."
 * Note page 102 of Bergman's 1775 Dissertation: "The calx of manganeſe, known alſo by the name of magneſia nigra, furniſhes an admirable proof..." — yet on the image file, your description continued: "(together with 'calx', this symbol indicates metallic manganese)" — no, Bergman said the 'calx' [look it up, that means a metal's oxide ] was also known as "magnesia nigra", precisely what you've just denied. You're contradicting your own source! – . Raven .talk 22:53, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Why would you cite me as a RS for one of you edits?
 * Okay, to spell it out: Bergman shows the 'calx' symbol ♆ next to [[File:Manganese symbol (Bergman).svg]] and labels it "manganese", under the heading of "metallic calces", just as he does with the other metals. If ♆☉ is calx of gold, and ♆☾ is calx of silver, then ♆[[File:Manganese symbol (Bergman).svg]] is calx of manganese, which as you note is magnesia nigra. Do you have a RS that [[File:Manganese symbol (Bergman).svg]] on its own is magnesia nigra? And no, some comment I made on Commons does not count as a RS. — kwami (talk) 06:34, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Then were you not accurately representing an RS (Bergman, that is, not yourself!) when you cited it as "alchemical symbol for manganese or possibly magnesia in Bergman 1775" on the Commons file? Tsk."Bergman... labels it "manganese", under the heading of "metallic calces"..."
 * > "Do you have a RS that [[File:Manganese symbol (Bergman).svg]] on its own is magnesia nigra?" – Do you have a RS that [[File:Manganese symbol (Bergman).svg]] on its own is the pure metal manganese? Or did you WP:OR deduce that from its calx's symbol?
 * Where does the symbol appear in isolation, to refer to the isolated metal?
 * Read the second paragraph of 'Calx': "According to the obsolete phlogiston theory, the calx was the true elemental substance that was left after phlogiston was driven out of it in the process of combustion." – Or definition 1 in Wiktionary's 'calx', "... once seen as being the essential substance left after the expulsion of phlogiston..." – i.e. the metal was the "phlogisticated" form, the combination of calx (the "true" or "essential" substance) plus phlogiston – and Bergman held to the phlogiston theory, as you can read in that same book (you've even SVG'd his symbol for phlogiston, [[File:Phlogiston symbol.svg]]; note that, as befits the "principle of fire", it contains the fire symbol 🜂). Thus which was he calling the true elemental substance "manganese" – the metal, or its calx? –  . Raven .talk 12:21, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Do you have any direct evidence? Not your chain of OR, using WP as a source, but anything in Berger where he identifies what the symbols mean? Because if the symbol without the calx symbol means the calx, and the symbol with the calx symbol means the metal, then per Berger's table the Sun alone is calx of gold and the Moon alone is calx of silver. I've never seen that anywhere. — kwami (talk) 05:26, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * You're thinking of the metal as the true element, and the calx as the combined (oxidized) form — which is exactly how modern chemistry regards them. But to phlogiston believers, the calx was the true element, and the metal was the combined (phlogisticated) form. So to Bergman [not "Berger"], his symbols ♆[[File:Manganese symbol (Bergman).svg]] conveyed "true" or "essential" manganese. Since you don't read article footnotes before marking them "fv", here: • –  . Raven .talk 05:51, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * You're still engaged in OR, your personal interpretation of what the sources mean. But your opinion is not a RS. Do you or do you not have a RS that actually states that ☾ is not silver, ☿ is not mercury, ♀ is not copper, ☉ is not gold, ♂ is not iron, ♃ is not tin and ♄ is not lead, but rather the calces of those metals? And if you're right, why do we not correct those entries along with manganese? — kwami (talk) 07:04, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * My "opinion" has nothing to do with it, nor does your (pretense of?) incomprehension. Did you bother to read that direct quote from A Dictionary of Chemistry, or not?
 * If that's not enough for you, try the Royal Society of Chemistry's "The Logic of Phlogiston", or Chem Europe's "Phlogiston Theory" ("Once burned, the 'dephlogisticated' substance was held to be in its 'true' form, the calx.") Likewise Purdue Chemistry and U.Penn. – . Raven .talk 07:30, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * But none of that tells us what the symbols mean. That's where you're engaged in OR: you assume that the meanings of the symbols are how you would use them, given your understanding, without evidence that's how they were actually used. Really, this is not difficult: do you or do you not have a RS that [[File:Manganese symbol (Bergman).svg]] means magnesia nigra, or for that matter that ⚩ means either magnesium or magnesia alba? If we have to interpret the source, it doesn't count -- especially when your deduction contradicts all other sources. — kwami (talk) 18:39, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * > "You assume that the meanings of the symbols are how you would use them, given your understanding..." – No, my understanding is that a 'calx' is the oxide of a metal, because I learned modern chemistry. Bergman, however, did not, hence phlogiston was mentioned throughout his book. To phlogiston theorists, a metal was the combination of a calx plus phlogiston.> "... when your deduction contradicts all other sources." – What "other" sources? I keep asking you for RSs supporting your claims, and when you do (rarely) answer those requests, it's WP:OR like "I contacted Unicode to ask why, and they said...", which no-one can look up to verify, or "(together with 'calx', this symbol indicates metallic manganese)" – when 'calx' (as you have been given multiple cites) explicitly is not the metal but its oxide... which phlogiston theorists (of whom Bergman was one) regarded as the "true form" of the substance.
 * But if, as you just said there, the symbol indicates the metal "together with" the calx, then why are you fighting over naming them both in the symbol entry? – . Raven .talk 19:58, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * You've seen ♆ for 'calx'; check out [[File:Regulus symbol.svg]] (as at the bottom of Reutter de Rosemont plate 6, column 1), among several recorded symbols for 'regulus', 'The metallic component refined from an ore.'You've seen that on p. 385 Bergman wrote "manganese" next to the calx, ♆[[File:Manganese symbol (Bergman).svg]].Where did he do so for the metal, [[File:Regulus symbol.svg]][[File:Manganese symbol (Bergman).svg]] ? –  . Raven .talk 23:38, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, and he wrote "gold" next to calx of gold, "platina" next to calx of platinum, and "silver" next to calx of silver -- because they're in a table of "Metallic Calces", as it says at the top of the column.
 * Similarly, in the column to the left, of "Acids", those are all acids. That is, "+C" is not a lemon, but acid of lemon (citric acid). "+🜿" is not tartar, but acid of tartar (tartaric acid), and "+f" is not his symbol for "ants", but of "acid of ants" (formic acid). Note that he didn't write the "+" next to 🜋 for "acetous (acid)", because vinegar is already an acid.
 * That's the common-sense reading of the table. If you want to argue that "+f" is the alchemical symbol for ants and "+C" is the alchemical symbol for a lemon, then I'm afraid you'll need a supporting RS for that reading. — kwami (talk) 00:33, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
 * > "If you want to argue that "+f" is the alchemical symbol for ants and "+C" is the alchemical symbol for a lemon" – What a remarkable capacity for projection: you imagine things, and pretend they're mine. No-one's claimed that *acids* (like calces) were the "true state" of substances according to phlogiston theory, let alone that ants and whole lemons themselves were used to dissolve anything. Again, if by "manganese" Bergman meant the metal rather than the calx, why did he then symbolize the calx rather than the metal? – . Raven .talk 00:50, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
 * You read the table as it's written, not as how you think it should be written based on your OR.
 * I don't know, Ravin, you're literate, what do you think? Why did he write "gold" instead of "calx of gold"? Do you think perhaps he omitted "calx of" from each item to save space and because it was patently obvious from the heading "metallic calces", just as he left off "acid of" from each item in the adjacent column of "acids"?
 * Just a thought. — kwami (talk) 01:26, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
 * He didn't omit the 'calx' symbol, ♆, from any of those lines, which he could easily have done. He also could easily have made that column a list of metals and their symbols, simply by replacing the 'calx' symbol with the 'regulus' symbol – but didn't. Why not?Again, Bergman wrote about phlogiston as a real thing (I won't repeat that link this time); and in phlogiston theory the calx is the "true" or "essential" substance (see above for multiple links and a couple of quotes).Just a thought. – . Raven .talk 01:39, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Again, you appear to be playing stupid. I'm done enabling your bad-faith argumentation. This is all quite simple: You need a RS for your claims, or per WP policy they will be deleted. — kwami (talk) 01:57, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I've given you RSs here in this discussion; and I've added RS footnotes to the attached article (among others) – which you've then either reverted or marked [failed verification]/[citation needed], after which it became clear in conversation you hadn't read the linked sources (were unaware of their content), i.e., you hadn't tried to "verify" them.
 * You in turn almost never cite an RS, despite repeated requests ("Bergman 1775" being one exception), merely repeat unsourced edits if reverted. So once again your lecturing is misplaced. Try living by the rules you thump. – . Raven .talk 06:20, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
 * You don't understand what a RS is, and you don't understand what OR is. As for me supplying RS's: you're the one making the unsupported claims, so it's up to you to support them. You got angry with me for "templating" your talk page, but if you're this ignorant of how WP works, then you need to be templated.
 * Anyway, you have demonstrated a complete inability to learn, so I've concluded that discussing things with you is a waste of time. No more discussion: supply RS's or not, it's up to you -- but without RS's, all of your claims will be reverted. — kwami (talk) 06:33, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
 * For comparison and contrast. Citing in detail, and linking, "The Chymistry of Isaac Newton" Project's symbols proposal online at Indiana University is WP:RS and not WP:OR – but you deleted that citation, later marking it and other citations in the same pair of footnotes [failed verification][citation needed], never specifying whether this applied to one, some, or all of the sources, nor what claim "failed verification", nor how. In conversation you proved unaware of the linked contents, meaning your 'fv' tag was unfounded: without reading them, you can't have tried to "verify" them.Claiming "I contacted Unicode to ask why, and they said..." is WP:OR and not WP:RS – but despite my repeatedly asking you for an RS of the "retraction" you asserted, you have provided nothing that verifiably supports your assertion, merely repeated it.What a difference. –  . Raven .talk 07:35, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
 * That's not Bergman. — kwami (talk) 23:59, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
 * True enough. Corrected to RdR. Also see the Basil Valentine plate, same symbol. – . Raven .talk 00:17, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

For anyone reading through this, I found the following definition of "magnesia" in The Alchemy Reader: From Hermes Trismegistus to Isaac Newton (2003, CUP). There were several, actually, but this one was from the fn on p. 180:
 * "Magnesia" possesses a wide range of meanings in alchemy, from one of the ingredients of the philosopher's stone (OED), to marcasite or a mixture of silver and mercury (Lexicon), to "the active, vitalistic alchemical agent Mercurius," or the quintessence itself (DAI 121). Sendivogius's context [17th century] indicates that it is a life-giving natural force with attractive, possibly magnetic powers.

— kwami (talk) 09:59, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

 * That would go all the way back to the classical period when (as footnote 8's Multhauf 1975, "A history of magnesia alba", cited Pliny from the 1st century) there were five types of "magnesia" or "magnesian earths" (called such from the region Magnesia) — one of them actually being "magnetic", the lodestone which was called "magnet". That your source covers so far back is indicated by the title: look up Hermes Trismegistus. As for the OED, I quoted/linked that definition myself, above.
 * But I linked texts that were specific about the time periods that names were used, including the well-sourced Magnesium and Manganese — to quote the latter: "In the 16th century, manganese dioxide was called manganesum (note the two Ns instead of one) by glassmakers, possibly as a corruption and concatenation of two words, since alchemists and glassmakers eventually had to differentiate a magnesia nigra (the black ore) from magnesia alba (a white ore, also from Magnesia, also useful in glassmaking). Michele Mercati called magnesia nigra manganesa, and finally the metal isolated from it became known as manganese (German: Mangan). The name magnesia eventually was then used to refer only to the white magnesia alba (magnesium oxide), which provided the name magnesium for the free element when it was isolated much later."
 * (I cited that text's source, Calvert 2003, "Chromium and Manganese", in footnote 8.)
 * Torbern Bergman was 18th century, and Isaac Newton's alchemical studies were late 17th – early 18th century. The term "phlogiston" is itself a date giveaway, since (as quoted in footnote 9 from A Dictionary of Chemistry): "In the early 18th century Georg Stahl renamed the substance phlogiston (from the Greek for 'burned') and extended the theory to include the calcination (and corrosion) of metals."
 * So when we're discussing phlogiston theory and a 'calx' named magnesia, there's no ambiguity left, as by then magnesia referred only to what had previously been magnesia alba: magnesium oxide. Clear now? No more anachronisms from you? – . Raven .talk 17:15, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

Louis Reutter de Rosemont's Histoire...
Restored full citation including publisher, location, link, and correct original publication year, inexplicably among the details removed as "false claims". Perhaps previous editor saw the date "1932" on 2nd-printing's title page, and ignored or missed turning to the original publication date "1931" on the original title page just 6 pages (3 sheets) later in that book. Also, FYI, the cite-book 'at' parm is used when there's more than numeric 'page/pages' info, as is the case here; that way the abbreviation "p." is not put in front of the text "4 plates...", making it incorrectly look like "p. 4" is the reference followed by "plates...". – . Raven .talk 19:58, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Silver
🜛 [silver] appears in that same proposal from the Newton Chymistry Project, p.13, 2nd from bottom. – . Raven .talk 05:19, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Alchemical symbol


text:
Talk:Darwin Mounds

Discovery?
Who discovered the mounds and who gave it the name Darwin Mounds ? Jay 10:29, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * The answers are in the article. --Bardcom (talk) 10:12, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Location of the Darwin Mounds
The references for the Darwin Mounds are invariably described as either being off the North West coast of Scotland, or the North West Coast of Great Britain. I've corrected the text and provided an extra reference annotation. The existing references also confirm the location. --Bardcom (talk) 10:12, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 12:51, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Darwin Mounds


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User:WhatWouldEmperorNortonDo

 * Vote Obama 2008

The Era of Dumb Government is Over

^ Oh, my sweet summer child HRouillier (talk) 19:02, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

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Sheila Ferguson

Sheila Diana Ferguson (born October 8, 1947) is an American singer, songwriter, actress, and author, who has worked primarily in the United Kingdom. Between 1966 and 1986, she was a member of the American female soul music group The Three Degrees, singing lead vocals on most of the group's biggest hits, most notably "When Will I See You Again", which had international success, topping the UK Singles Chart and peaking at #2 in the US.

Following her departure from The Three Degrees in 1986, Ferguson went on to have her own solo singing career, touring internationally, making multiple TV appearances, and releasing a solo album titled A New Kind of Medicine. She has forged a prolific stage and screen career in the UK, starring in numerous musicals, soul legend tours, and her own sitcom Land of Hope and Gloria. She is also the best-selling author of Soul Food: Classic Cuisine from the Deep South.

Early life
Sheila Diana Ferguson was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Despite attending more than 10 schools as a child, she was academically gifted and had originally wanted to become a psychologist. A teenage crush on the singer Marvin Gaye led her to try her hand at singing in the hope that, by doing so, she would be able to meet him. She achieved this dream some time later when, appearing at the Apollo Theater, she talked to Gaye in his dressing room.

While at high school, Ferguson was introduced by her teacher to Richard Barrett, who had previously been a singer with a group called The Valentines, and later had gone on to become a manager. Barrett placed Ferguson's first single, "Little Red Riding Hood/How Did That Happen" with Landa Records,. Subsequently signed to Swan Records, Ferguson also recorded the first two songs she wrote herself "I Weep for You" and "Don't Leave Me Lover" out of three solo singles for the label during 1965.

Other solo songs she recorded were "How Did That Happen", written by Ugene Dozier, "And in Return" and "Are You Satisfied", written by General Johnson (later to become known to the world as the lead singer of Chairmen of the Board).

Ferguson recorded two up-tempo numbers written for her by a talented up and coming songwriter by the name of Leon Huff. Huff would later team up with Kenny Gamble to form the Philadelphia International Records. These were "Heartbroken Memories" and "Signs of Love".

The Three Degrees
Although Barrett signed Ferguson as a solo artist, he was already in the process of creating a group called The Three Degrees with the line up of Fayette Pinkney, Shirley Porter and Linda Turner. By 1966, the line up had changed to be Fayette Pinkney, Helen Scott and Janet Harmon. However, Scott announced she would be leaving the group in order to get married. Having previously appeared with the group as a cover when one of the girls fell ill, Ferguson was asked by Pinkney and Harmon to become a permanent member. In 1967, Harmon left the group and was replaced by Valerie Holiday. Barrett signed them to several record labels, and by 1970, they were signed to Roulette Records and released their first album Maybe, the title song of which reached #4 in the US R&B charts. The singles "I Do Take You" and "You're the Fool" followed as well as second album So Much Love.

In 1971, the group appeared in the Oscar-winning film The French Connection singing "Everybody Gets to Go to the Moon", and in 1973, they appeared in the sitcom Sanford and Son.

It was during this year that The Three Degrees enjoyed their greatest success when signed by Philadelphia International Records and working with Gamble and Huff. Their first song under this label was "TSOP (The Sound of Philadelphia)", which was the theme song for Soul Train. Under this label the group began to tour internationally. The self-titled The Three Degrees was released in 1973 and yielded hits such as "Dirty Ol' Man" (which went to #13 in the UK Singles Chart) and "Year of Decision" (which went to gold in the Netherlands and Belgium).

However, the subsequent release of "When Will I See You Again" ensured international recognition when the song became #1 in the UK charts for two weeks in August 1974 (the first time this had been achieved by an all female group since The Supremes). Following an appearance on Top of the Pops, other countries followed suit and "When Will I See You Again" did extremely well worldwide reaching #2 in the U.S. where it sold over two million copies and earned the group a gold record in 1974.

The group recorded two live albums in 1975 and a further studio album The Three Degrees International. This album was called Take Good Care of Yourself in the UK, the title song of which reached the top 10 in the same country. The album itself reached #6 in the UK Albums Chart.

In 1976, they released the album A Toast of Love (for the Far East market), the title song of which was released internationally. This was the year that Fayette Pinkney left and was replaced by former member Helen Scott. They then released Standing Up for Love, an album, in 1977.

In 1978 and 1979, they released two disco-styled albums New Dimensions and 3D. From these albums. they had four top 20 hits in the UK with "Givin' Up, Givin' In", "Woman in Love", "The Runner" (co-written by Ferguson) and "My Simple Heart". They also released A Collection of Their 20 Greatest Hits, a compilation album.

The group performed at Prince Charles' 30th birthday party, and in 1979, filmed their own TV special The Three Degrees at The Royal Albert Hall with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra.

In 1980 they released Gold, another compilation album, which reached the top 10 in the UK Album Charts, and in 1982, they recorded a TV show for the BBC (Take Three Degrees), performing their greatest hits. They then released two albums Album of Love and Live in the UK. The single "Liar", co-written by Ferguson, was released. and in 1985, they released "The Heaven I Need" and "This Is The House", produced by Stock, Aitken and Waterman.

Ferguson left The Three Degrees in 1986 as a result of wanting to spend more time being a mother to take care of her very young daughters of the time. Sheila had mentioned in a 2006 interview that after she gave birth to her daughters, she was still singing and touring with The Three Degrees, but it caused her to limit her availability to her daughters and whenever she came home from her singing projects and tours, her daughters were noticeably clinging onto the nanny, instead of her. Realizing that her long absences from home caused her daughters to become emotionally distant from her, she then made the ultimate decision to leave the group. Additionally, in the 2006 interview, which separately featured Ferguson and Valerie Holiday (other Three Degrees member), it was revealed that in 1986 Ferguson called the other members of Three Degrees on a phone call to inform she was leaving the group. Both Ferguson and Holiday claimed on their own ends that the phone call conversation ended very abruptly. Holiday commented she was very upset feeling this conversation should have been in person, and not on a phone call. She commented that it was very difficult finding someone to replace Ferguson in the group, which eventually they did, but Holiday permanently took over Ferguson's former spot as the lead singer of the group, and has been in this current role since her departure. Since then, Ferguson has had very limited contact with The Three Degrees and she has never made any public appearances with The Three Degrees. Though in a 2011 interview with The Three Degrees on the British TV show, Lorraine, they mentioned that because they and Ferguson are from their home city of Philadelphia, they sometimes come back to their home city to visit family and friends and, at times, Ferguson and The Three Degrees members may encounter each other, but very often their encounters with Ferguson are only for short moments and one of the members, Helen Scott, mentioned their occasional encounters with Sheila Ferguson is like ships that pass in the night. Although Ferguson no longer has any professional relational encounters with The Three Degrees, she still will perform hit songs that she originally recorded and sang with The Three Degrees; such as "When Will I See You Again", "Dirty Ol Man", "Year of Decision", "Woman In Love", "Giving Up Giving In", and "Take Good Care Of Yourself". More often she will sing "When Will I See You Again" whenever she performs any of the hits that she originally sang and recorded with The Three Degrees.

Solo
In 1994, Ferguson appeared as a solo artist in the UK Singles Chart with her remake of the Three Degrees' hit "When Will I See You Again". It spent one week in that listing at number 60.

In 2004, Ferguson released her debut solo album A New Kind of Medicine. She is also a lead on the original cast recording of Always and recorded two other albums Misty Blue...and More and ''Songs from Oh! What a Night''.

She featured in Star Alliance's recording of "He's a Runner" in 2006 and recorded "Fool of the Year" for the album Disco 2008, produced by Ian Levine.

Ferguson has performed in multiple soul legend tours and appeared as the Acid Queen at the 50th anniversary of The Who at the O2 Shepherd's Bush Empire in November 2014.

She starred in David Gest's (I've Had) the Time of My Life Tour! across September and October 2015, culminating in a performance at the Connaught Rooms, London, followed by performing at "The Legends of Soul Weekender" with Mary Wilson, Thelma Houston, Gwen Dickey and Jaki Graham in Skegness.

In June 2016, Ferguson performed in a series of soul gigs ("A Night of Soul") in Cyprus with Andy Abraham.

Theatre
Ferguson has starred in numerous musicals and pantomimes in the UK.

Her first musical was Always in 1997 at the Victoria Palace, London, which also starred Shani Wallis. She then starred in Soul Train (The Musical), Oh What a Night, playing Roxia, and Thoroughly Modern Millie (musical), playing Muzzy Van Hossmere.

In 2005, Ferguson starred in the premiere of the West End musical Behind the Iron Mask at the Duchess Theatre and then toured in Hot Flush, a musical based on the menopause. In 2008, she starred in Sister Act-Songs from the Film.

In 2010, Ferguson joined the cast of the Irish National Tour of Fame the Musical playing the strict head teacher Miss Sherman.

Most recently she starred in the West End musical celebration Respect La Diva at the Garrick Theatre and in Daddy Cool as Pearl.

Ferguson also appeared as the Fairy Godmother and Wicked Queen in numerous pantomimes, including Dick Whittington, Cinderella, Aladdin, and Beauty and the Beast.

From December 2012 to January 2013, Ferguson appeared in Cinderella at the Nottingham Theatre Royal as the Fairy Godmother, a role she reprised at the Theatre Royal Norwich from December 2013 to January 2014. She then starred as the Wicked Queen in Beauty and the Beast at the Theatre Royal, Windsor from December 2014 to January 2015, followed by appearing as the Fairy Godmother in Cinderella at The Sands Centre, Carlisle in December 2015.

Ferguson headlined Ipswich Regent Theatre's pantomime, playing the Wicked Fairy in Sleeping Beauty from December 2016 to January 2017. In February of 2022, she announced she would be casting in the musical, Chicago.

Television
Ferguson is the first and only black woman to star in her own sitcom in the UK. She played the lead role in the TV sitcom Land of Hope and Gloria, which ran for six episodes in 1992 and was her first acting venture. She also wrote and sang the title song for the series. Although a second series was planned, the idea was shelved after the death of co-star Joan Sanderson.

She has appeared in the British sitcom Desmond's, playing nightclub owner Rochelle Jackson, and the British soap opera Brookside, playing Susan Robinson.

Ferguson was a panelist in Les Dawson's first hosting of the quiz show Blankety Blank in 1984 and has appeared on the TV show Never Mind the Buzzcocks several times, three times as a panelist and once dressed as a pirate in the celebrity line up. She also appeared on Comic Relief in Da Bungalow.

In 2004 Ferguson was a contestant on the fourth series of I'm a Celebrity... Get Me Out of Here!, followed by being a contestant in the first series of Celebrity MasterChef in 2006. In May 2011, she starred in the second series of Channel 4s Celebrity Five Go To, in which the celebrities visited South Africa.

She has appeared as a celebrity contestant on The Weakest Link, Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? and Pointless Celebrities (in both 2013 and 2014).

Ferguson appeared in the second BBC series of The Real Marigold Hotel, and spent a month in India with seven other celebrities.

Presenter
Ferguson presented the documentary The Philadelphia Records Story for Smooth FM in the UK on March 22, 2009.

On April 11, 2012, Ferguson co-hosted Newcastle-based charity, Toma Fund's Eurovision Reunited event..

Author
In 1989, Ferguson published a cook book inspired by recipes from her African American background, Soul Food: Classic Cuisine from the Deep South. She is the first African American in England to ever publish a cookbook related to Soul food.

Awards
In 2013 Ferguson was awarded the Variety Legends of Industry Award for services to music.

She was awarded an Ethnic Minority Business Foundation national achievement award by the Bank of England and its Governor Eddie George in 1999 and was awarded the City of Compton California Book Award for her book Soul Food: Classic Cuisine from the Deep South.

Philanthropy
Ferguson is a patron of the theatre charity The Music Hall Guild of Great Britain and America and has long been a supporter of the Combined Theatrical Charities taking part in the launch of its Acting for Others campaign in 2003. She has been a patron of the national parenting charity, Parentalk, from 1997, raising over £70K for the charity through celebrity appearances. She is also a supporter of WaterAid and appeared in the 2014 To Be a Girl campaign.

She has appeared on two charity singles, It's a Live-In World for the Anti Heroin Project in 1986, and Give Give Give produced by Paul Hardcastle under the title Disco Aid in 1986, followed by a re-production by Stock, Aitken & Waterman under the title Dance Aid in 1987 to support multiple sclerosis research.

Ferguson has been an active supporter of artists rights through her membership and work for both the Phonographic Performance Ltd and the Performing Rights Society. The board of PPL voted unanimously to make Ferguson a Lifetime Guardian Member of the organisation after merging with the Performing Artists Media Rights Organisation (of which she was a founder member on the original board) in 2006. She has been an Equity (trade union) Councillor and an events speaker at and on behalf of Equity. Ferguson has also been a judge at the Race in Media Awards on several occasions.

She has been an Ambassador for The Prince's Trust since 2008.

Personal life
After marrying property businessman Chris Robinson in 1980, Ferguson settled in Bray, Berkshire. Ferguson and Robinson had twin daughters, Alicia and Alexandria, before divorcing in 2004. From sometime in 2005 until 2010, she had temporarily resided in Mallorca with her partner Jonathan Curry who was a theatre technician and was roughly 20 years her junior. Because of his sudden death from health complications related to drug use in 2010, she has since then resettled back entirely in England and has remained mainly single since. She has commented in some interviews that because her encounter with Prince Charles back in the 1970s, which created media attention in England, this lasting media impression made it difficult for her to find new relationships after her divorce.

Theatre
• 1992: Bobby Davro: Summer Season

• 1996: Rock with Laughter (Cannon & Ball)

• 1997: Always

• 2000/1: Soul Train (The Musical)

• 2002/3: Oh! What a Night

• 2003/4: Thoroughly Modern Millie

• 2005: Behind the Iron Mask

• 2006: Cinderella (pantomime)

• 2007: Hot Flush

• 2007: The Songs of Sister Act

• 2007: Snow White (pantomime)

• 2008: Aladdin (pantomime)

• 2009: Dick Whittington (pantomime)

• 2010: Fame, The Musical

• 2011: The Hot 100 (Dubai)

• 2011: Respect La Diva

• 2011: Cinderella (pantomime)

• 2012: Daddy Cool

• 2012: The Music & Magic Ball

• 2012: Cinderella (pantomime)

• 2013/14: David Gest's Soul Legends Live

• 2013: Cinderella (pantomime)

• 2014: Beauty and the Beast (pantomime)

• 2018: Dick Whittington (pantomime)

Film

 * 1970: The French Connection

Television

 * 1992: Land of Hope and Gloria
 * 1992: Brookside
 * 1992: Desmonds

title: Sheila Ferguson


text:
User talk:Sim Coolidge

Bill Gates img vandalism
My edit was not some vandalism. It appeared that the weird picture of Bill Gates as a devil still appeared on my browser and I thought it was better to remove the image alltogether since I couldn't get rid of it. But at the end of the day, it was only a cache problem I think, sorry for that... --Edcolins 10:35, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:Sim Coolidge


text:
Talk:Clearcutting/Archive 1

I took out the following paragraph:
 * "The issues surrounding forestry have been greatly skewed by the media who loves to portray the logging industry and loggers as evil destroyers of virginal forest. This is the same media that relies on wood pulp to produce its papers. The Sunday edition of the New York Times alone is responsible for the deforestation of millions of trees."

NPOV it certainly is not. I dare say this article needs a lot more work, but by someone more knowledgeable about the subject than I am. --MockTurtle 10:35, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I removed this article from the agriculture category because clearcutting is only marginally related to agriculture. Sowelilitokiemu 08:42, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Personal observation
As a child, I lived in Cave Junction, Oregon for a few years, when the timber industry was booming. That was from 1959-1962. They practiced clearcutting there in those days. There were reportedly 30 sawmills operating in the Illinois Valley, fed by a steady stream of logs from Siskiyou National Forest. Now there's only one mill, and it's barely surviving, getting its logs from private holdings. I've returned there from time to time, and now, nearly half a century later, one can still see the "windows" cut into the forest on the mountainsides. All that grows in the cleared areas is brush and "trash" trees. It will probably take many more generations before the forest heals itself. The timber industry did themselves in with their practices! --QuicksilverT @ 12:36, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Timber growth in the Siskiyou is est. 739 million board feet annually. Highest harvest was 309 million bf in 1973. Harvest today is about 13 million bf. The decrease is due to the Forest Management Act of 1993 limited harvest to improve wildlife habitat. Personal observations are biased by individual POV and often not useful. KAM 17:35, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Selection cut
Hi guys. I made a link on selection cut. Any expert on this field ought to develop the article. I myself have no knowledge in this.

It would be appropriate to have selection cut article in pair with the clearfelling article. (Wikimachine 22:15, 19 April 2006 (UTC))

 * Selection cutting --GoDot 04:33, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

 * Or should it be a 'selectionfelling' article to pair with the 'clearfelling' article? We should probably work our which name makes more sense.  -The Gomm 02:43, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

'Clearcut' is much more common than 'clearfelling'
How about we move the content to the clearcut page, and redirect all the links there. I can imagine lots of urban users who have never heard of clearfelling. -The Gomm 03:46, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

From Google:
 * about 9,300,000 for "Clear-cut"
 * about 1,020,000 for Clearcut
 * about 893,000 for "Clear-cutting"
 * about 473,000 for "Clearcutting"
 * about 108,000 for "Clear-felling"
 * about 63,900 for "Clearfelling"
 * about 29,900 for "Clearfell"
 * about 25,400 for "Clear fell"

Almost two orders of magnitude! Who will be least astonished?

This 9.3 million is not too bad compared to other common terms:
 * about 2,690,000 for "white bread"
 * about 7,730,000 for "fried chicken"
 * about 10,100,000 for "christmas eve"
 * about 23,900,000 for "public school"
 * about 46,500,000 for "main street"

-The Gomm 02:19, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Unreferenced
"Clearfelling",, and "clearfell" are not in the Oxford English Dictionary. Neither term is in The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 nor in WordNet (r) 2.0 (these are databases of many on-line dictionaries, chiefly via dict.org). Neither term is in The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language.,

Merriam-Webster has clear-cutting (clear-cut) and clear-felling (clear-fell, both chiefly British), Encyclopedia Brittanica has "Marking, felling, and processing".

That the article is using actual English words is increasingly unlikely, particularly without references (hint).

"Clearcut" is not in the OED, "clearcut" is in the Collaborative International, and WordNet, linking to "clear-cut".

"Clear-cut"
 * The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48:
 * v. t.
 * To cut (a region of forest) clear of all trees. It is a method used for efficiently logging a portion of forest, but often has undesirable effects on the environment.

 * WordNet (r) 2.0:
 * 2: having had all the trees removed at one time; "clear-cut hillsides subject to erosion"

See also Cite your sources.

--GoDot 04:33, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Merge
"Clearfelling" and "Clearcutting" articles duplicate each other: fixed. However, neither title is a common English word for a not-uncommon concept in American English, particularly in the western U.S. and Canada. This is confusing to readers without prior familiarity with terms and misspellings, as well as being inappropriate to Wikipedia.

 * Wikipedia recommends following the "Principle of least astonishment": Guide to writing better articles.

Size
Further, until Logging becomes inconveniently large, terms would be more useful within the comprehensive article, per Article size.
 * 3 Splitting a page
 * 3.1 No need for haste
 * "Do not take precipitous action [...] There is no need for haste. Discuss the overall topic structure with other editors." [This is also a basic courtesy, particularly with articles that have many editors and development over more than a short time.]

"A rule of thumb Some useful rules of thumb for splitting articles, and combining small pages (see above for what to exclude):
 * > 50 KB 	Probably should be divided (although the scope of a topic can sometimes justify the added reading time)"

Long articles "The size of a page in the main namespace (and when not disabled also in the other namespaces) can be found by searching for it (if the search isn't disabled); it is a by-product of that feature (remember to use the Search button, not the Go button!). For long pages it appears also on editing, with the message MediaWiki:longpagewarning – for example:

"This page is 37 kilobytes long. This may be longer than is preferable; see article size."[Appears when size exceeds 32 KB.]

--GoDot 04:33, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Merge into Forestry?
I don't think this page should necessarily be merged into anything, but if it is, it probably fits better into the Forestry page, since clearcutting is a Forestry option, rather than merging into Logging which is a Forestry action. -The Gomm 23:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that this page should not be merged with logging. Perhaps merge with Wood management and rename Forest Management. If not merged it should be renamed clearcut. The reason it is clearfelling is because at one time clearcut redirected to deforestation. This page was creaed to avoid a row. KAM 11:26, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Why merge at all? The page is already much larger than most pages on wikipedia (see Random article) and the concept of clearcutting is not just an issue in forest management, but also in environmentalism.  Why not make a Clearcut page?  The Gomm 16:45, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Good point, more then forestry issue. I agree, should be Clearcut. KAM 17:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

This article sucks. In silviculture, Clearcutting is a method for regeneration of forests, and commercially it is one type of harvest. But to a degree, selection cutting, shelterwood, thinning and coptis all have environmental issues, and sometimes the same issues. Most of the environmental concerns "discussed" in this article are relevant to logging, not clearcutting in particular. The silviculture articles' regeneration section actually gerts more across with its single paragraph on clearcutting than this does.The plantation article has about ten times the relevancy to modern forestry and even aged management even without once using the word clearcut. 160.94.147.173 00:57, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Delete Merge tags?
How long should we keep the merge tags before deleting them? The Gomm 00:19, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd say remove the merge with logging tag now, probably the forestry one also. I don't understand why  references are needed, its all just boilerplate so far.KAM 15:30, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Text moved from logging
The last two edits I did was to move text from wood management and rearrange a little. The text at wood management originally came from logging. Almost all the original text is still there. KAM 15:30, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Mitigating Impacts
I would like to move the last couple of lines referring to 'large or poorly planned' clearcuts to the previous section, Environmental impacts, as I think they are more appropriate there. I'll do it if no-one objects.The Boy that time forgot 23:24, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Done it now. This is purely cosmetic however as the majority of the text in this, and most, of the article is very poor. We need an informed and ruthless editor to shake the article into some sort of coherent shape. That'll not be me then. The Boy that time forgot 21:38, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Unclear
Some of this is has confusing wording, at least to me. The result is, my editing may remove things that are not false, but are just not worded very well.160.94.27.146 19:18, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Some of this article is way wrong.
I took this out:

"In an area where abundant seedlings and saplings are already established, clearcutting all designated trees 2 inches or greater in diameter at breast height would provide more sunlight to the smaller trees beneath. If this is the case the term "release cut" or "overstory removal" would be more appropriate. This done to maximize dollars and to maximize the amount of sunlight that reaches the ground."

Clearcutting is cutting down all trees for an area, not trees of a certain height or diameter. This paragraph describes a selection cut, or thinning. Whomever wrote this, please consult a textbook or some kind of accredited website before writing anything else on silviculture.160.94.120.173 19:53, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

 * While not specifically untrue, I have qualms with the "reasons for clearcutting" bulleted section. Other than "regeneration" (although it could be argued) many of these are also reasons for selection cutting or using other methods. I would also like to state now that clearcutting is not always the most economical method of harvest. In an unmanaged rain forest, there may be just a few trees that are worth something to the market and many more ficus and balsa which are worth much less, and in that situation cutting down all of the trees is less profitable than skidding out the mahogany etcetera.128.101.70.97 16:48, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Current Revisions
Gomm- land conversion is not an issue for foresters, but for developers. I am pretty sure that developers don't call it clearcutting when they deforest an area in order to change it. I don't think I can find a citation for the idea that a developer would not call clearing land clearcutting, it's easy to find citations for what things are: penguins are birds, and harder to find a citation for what things are not, penguins are not made from ice.160.94.147.173 00:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, none of the headers really describe what the following paragraph is focused on, if it really is focused on anything. 160.94.147.173 00:58, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Facts first, criticisms second
My suggestion for the structure of the article is that first it should go over how a forester or silviculturalist would describe clearcutting, then in a separate section go over its criticisms. Consider: it is not unreasonable to think that at some point there could be an entire "criticisms of clearcutting " article. In that scenario there would need to be a separate article on clearcutting with a technical definition and general overview of the practice, with the controversy mostly not present and summed up in a short paragraph with a link.66.41.66.213 06:28, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Facts don't come first or second. This is Wikipedia, in which facts do not matter, only verify-ability.  Don't post facts.  Post links to verifyable sources.  These sources can be as stupid and we want, but they do need to be something that we can all go look up.  -Gomm 06:54, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, not what I mean. I mean in the structure of the article, controversy (regardless of how sourced it is) should have its' own separate section, and the main body of the article should describe the practice more simply--otherwise it is too confusing for the general reader.

And as for you, my facts are generally accepted and can be sourced to published papers and textbooks by me or by anyone else.66.41.66.213 17:49, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Tragic citations
This is the start of my collection of things that aren't where they belong in the article, but I'm not comfortable deleting since someone took the time to find a real citation to their facts, even if they didn't cement their relevancy in the paragraph I found them in.

"Plantation forests that have been established in areas of high winds will suffer catastrophic wind damage once terminal height is achieved. "

This could belong in a section titled "Clearcutting and other forest management" that would be a sort of compare and contrast, I suppose. As it is it doesn't belong. Maybe I'll have to read the paper, because from the paragraph it seems like it would be an argument for clearcutting, but if "terminal height" means "maturity" then it is an argument for cases where clearcutting is inappropriate. Also this fails to cite what species of tree we are talking about. 66.41.66.213 07:00, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

 * No problem deleting the reference, it was put there what now seems like a long time ago when the article was structured much differently, it maybe made more sense then, I seem to remember a Reasons for section or something. In order to save you the trouble of having to read it I can briefly summarise. It is the case (and I generalise) that the majority of afforestation that has taken place in Britain over the past eighty years has involved establishing plantations of (mainly) Sitka spruce in upland areas of the north of the island. Due to a combination of precipitation levels, soil characteristics and high windiness many plantations reach a point, around 40 - 60 years after planting when they reach "terminal height". This means that you can expect a significant part of the crop (and it is a crop) to blow over. The only form of silvicultural management that makes financial / asthetic sense under these conditions is to manage on a clearfell (rotational) system. The Boy that time forgot 16:46, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

 * I remember the "reasons for clearcutting" and, I think the problem is that a list of benefits of clearcutting including lower cost makes it seem like foresters look over a similar list of bulleted points, rather than asses a forest based on a number of factors, well, anyhow, I have an idea. The information that was previously on a list could be included in "clearcutting in history" with each reason for clearcutting provided in an example. Examples are good!

Maybe I'm really tired, but in my opinion this article no longer completely sucks. There's a lot of redundancy, but I think all of the defensive language is gone, and I think the sentences under a heading have something to do with that heading for the most part. 66.41.66.213 18:39, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Clearcutting/clearfelling
Perhaps for clarity's sake the article should be moved to clearcutting, which is easier than rewriting the entire thing to use the term clearfelling instead. 66.41.66.213 01:49, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

 * Yes. See my comments (above). -Gomm 01:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

 * I call it clearfelling however I will admit that on a global scale, as Gomm has illustrated, clearcutting is probably more recognised. As long as there is a redirect, go right ahead. The Boy that time forgot 21:55, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

MOVE?!
I get a big crazy warning that I don't understand when I try to move the page name to "clearcutting" !? Help, I don't understand! Lotusduck 05:11, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Clearcutting/Archive 1


text:
Category:Welfare economics

Welfare economics is a branch of economics that uses microeconomic techniques to evaluate well-being (welfare) at the aggregate (economy-wide) level. A typical methodology begins with the derivation (or assumption) of a social welfare function, which can then be used to rank economically feasible allocations of resources in terms of the social welfare they entail. Such functions typically include measures of economic efficiency and equity, though more recent attempts to quantify social welfare have included a broader range of measures including economic freedom (as in the capability approach).

title: Category:Welfare economics


text:
Beihai Park

Beihai Park is a public park and former imperial garden immediately northwest of the Forbidden City in Beijing, China.

First built in the 12th century, Beihai is among the largest of all surviving Chinese gardens and contains numerous historically important structures, palaces, and temples. Once part of the Imperial City, it has been open to the public since 1925. As with many of Chinese imperial gardens, Beihai was designed to imitate renowned scenic spots and architecture from various regions of China, particularly Jiangnan around the Yangtze Delta. Various aspects of the park evoke the elaborate pavilions and canals of Hangzhou and Yangzhou, the delicate gardens of Suzhou, and the natural scenery around Lake Tai with its famously porous stones. Beihai Park itself is now reckoned one of the masterpieces of Chinese gardening and landscaping.

The present park has an area of around 71 ha with a lake that covers more than half of its area. At its center is Jade Flower Island ( t, s , Qiónghuádǎo), whose highest point is 32 m. The park's lake is connected at its northern end to the Shichahai.

Name
"Beihai" is the pinyin romanization of the Mandarin pronunciation of the garden's Chinese name,, meaning "Northern Sea". The name corresponds to the "Central Sea" (, Zhōnghǎi) and "Southern Sea" (, Nánhǎi) immediately to the park's south, still used—under the combined name Zhongnanhai—as the restricted headquarters of China's paramount leaders.

History
In 1179, Emperor Zhangzong of the Jurchen Jin dynasty had a country resort built northeast of Zhongdu, his empire's central capital located in what is now southwestern Beijing. Taiye Lake was excavated along the Jinshui River and the Palace of Great Peace ( t, s , Dàníng Gōng) was erected on Jade Flower Island in the lake.

During the reign of Kublai Khan of the Mongol Yuan dynasty, the island was redesigned by various architects and officials including Liu Bingzhong, Guo Shoujing, and Amir al-Din. Taiye Lake was enclosed within the walls of the Imperial City of the Yuan Empire's new capital Khanbaliq.

The Ming dynasty was initially based at Nanjing but moved to Beijing under the Yongle Emperor, with construction of his palace complex beginning in 1406. At this time, Taiye Lake was divided by bridges into three lakes described as the "Northern", "Central", and "Southern Seas". These lakes formed part of an extensive royal estate within the Imperial City called the Western Garden (西苑, Xīyuàn).

In 1747, the Qianlong Emperor ordered that three rare calligraphy works made by Wang Xizhi, Wang Xianzhi, and Wang Xun then housed within the Hall of Mental Cultivation along with 134 other calligraphic works from the Imperial Collection were to be carved into stone and displayed at the Pavilion of Reviewing the Past beside Beihai.

Notable places
Beihai Park includes several Buddhist temples within its grounds, including the Temple of Everlasting Peace (, Yǒng'ān Sì) and the Chanfu Temple.

The White Dagoba or Pagoda (, Báitǎ) is a Tibetan-style stupa placed on the highest point on Jade Flower Island, built to honor the visit of the 5th Dalai Lama in 1651. It is 40 m high and made of white stone. It houses reliquaries with Buddhist scriptures, monks' robes and alms bowls, and relics, the ash and bones of monks left after their cremation. Sun, moon, and flame engravings decorate the surface of the tower. Destroyed by the 1679 Sanhe-Pinggu earthquake, it was rebuilt the following year. Damage from the 1976 Tangshan earthquake was repaired the same year.

On the lake's north bank lies the Five Dragon Pavilions, five connected pavilions with spires and pointed upswept eaves, built under the Ming.

The Nine-Dragon Wall lies north of the Five Dragon Pavilions. It was built in 1402 and is one of three walls of its kind in China. It is made of glazed bricks in seven colors. Nine complete dragons playing in the clouds decorate both sides of the wall.

Many smaller gardens exist throughout the park. The Jingxin or Quieting Heart Room is a garden on the north bank that covers more than 4,000 sqm.

The Hall of Received Light (Chengguangdian) is the main structure in the Round City ( t, s , Tuánchéng). It is a spacious building with a double-eaved roof made of yellow glazed tiles bordered in green. Inside there is a Buddha that is 1.6 m tall, which was presented to the Guangxu Emperor of the Qing by a Khmer king. It is carved from a single piece of pure white jade inlaid with precious stones. The Eight-Nation Alliance damaged the statue's left arm during the 1900 Battle of Beijing.

The Taihu rocks in Beihai Park were shipped from Henan Province. There are also various pieces of art ranging from Yuan jade jars to a collection of 495 centuries-old stelas.

Legacy
The Five-Pavilion Bridge and Lotus Tower in Yangzhou's Slender West Lake Scenic Area were self-consciously modeled on Beihai Park's Five Dragon Pavilions and White Dagoba to curry favor with the Kangxi and Qianlong Emperors during their southern tours of Jiangnan in the 18th century.

title: Beihai Park


text:
Fran Cosgrave

Fran Cosgrave (born 30 December 1977) is an Irish nightclub owner, known for appearing on reality television programmes and being a former bodyguard for the boyband Westlife.

Biography
Cosgrave won the first season of ITV's Celebrity Love Island reality show in 2005. In September 2006, the ITV2 series Calum, Fran and Dangerous Danan, in which Cosgrove was seen traveling with Paul Danan and Calum Best from Texas to Los Angeles on U.S. Route 66 was aired.

Reality Check, his autobiography was published in 2006. On 7 August 2006 Cosgrave released his first single "Jetsetter" as Fran Cosgrave & the Inner City Playboys with Skint Records.

He has appeared on GMTV, Celebrity Daredevils, Loose Women and The Sharon Osbourne Show and I'm a Celebrity...Get Me Out of Here! among other programmes. He was a guest on RTÉ's Would You Believe in October 2008, discussing his faith.

He also took part in a reality show special edition Fool around with Fran Cosgrave, where he discovered who out of four girls was a true single and he won this show.

Cosgrave also co-founded the DJ/Producing trio 'Futuristic Polar Bears'. They are currently collaborating with several established names in the house music scene.

Family
He has a son, Josh, with ex-Atomic Kitten singer Natasha Hamilton.

title: Fran Cosgrave


text:
Diane Modahl

Diane Dolores Modahl (née Edwards, born 17 June 1966) is an English former middle distance runner who specialised in the 800 metres. She won Gold in the 800 m title at the 1990 Commonwealth Games, Silver at the 1986 Commonwealth Games, and Bronze at the 1998 Commonwealth Games.

Her other notable results include finishing third at the 1989 IAAF Grand Prix Final, fourth at the 1993 World Championships, and winning the European Cup in 1994. She also won six AAAs National 800 m titles.

She represented Great Britain at four Olympic Games (1988–2000), reaching the 800 m final in 1988.

Her career best 800 m time of 1:58.65 in 1990, ranks her 11th on the UK all-time list.

Her cousin is retired boxer Chris_Eubank.

Career
Born Diane Dolores Edwards in Manchester, to Jamaican parents, she won the 1984 English Schools 800 metres title in 2:05.7. She emerged as one of Britain's top 800m runners as a 20-year-old in 1986, winning the AAA Championships title ahead of Lorraine Baker. She went on to win a silver medal at the 1986 Commonwealth Games in Edinburgh in 2:01.12, finishing second to Kirsty Wade. A month later at the 1986 European Championships, she reached the semi-finals of the 800m, where she was eliminated in 2:00.84.

In 1987, Edwards won the UK Championship 800m title in June, ran a personal best of 1:59.30 to finish fourth at the Oslo Grand Prix on 4 July, and retained her AAAs 800m title, to earn selection for the 1987 World Championships, where she reached the semifinals and ran 1:59.34. In 1988, she earned selection for the Seoul Olympic Games, where she ran 1:59.66 in the semifinals, qualifying for the final. In the final, she finished eighth in 2:00.77. She had one of the best seasons of her career in 1989, including running 2:00.83 to finish third in the 800m at the IAAF Grand Prix Final in Monaco, behind Ana Quirot and Christine Wachtel. She was ranked number seven on the 1989 Track & Field News world merit rankings at 800m.

In January 1990, Edwards won the gold medal in the 800m at the Commonwealth Games, winning in 2:00.25. On 14 July 1990 she broke the English record in the 800m with 1:58.65 in Oslo, a time that would remain the best of her career. The previous record was 1:58.98 by Shireen Bailey in 1987, the UK record being held by the Scottish born Welsh athlete Kirsty Wade (1:57.42). In August, Edwards reached the final at the 1990 European Championships, finishing eighth. After struggling with injury, she won her third AAAs 800m title in 1992, to earn selection for the Barcelona Olympics, where she reached the semifinals.

In 1993, now competing as Diane Modahl, she had perhaps the best season of her career, consistently running below two minutes for 800m, with her seasons best being 1:59.00 in Zurich. At the 1993 World Championships in Stuttgart, she ran 1:59.12 in the semifinals to qualify for the final. In the final, won by Maria Mutola, she finished fourth in 1:59.42. Modahl was ranked in the top ten of the Track & Field News 800m world merit rankings for the second time in 1993, again at number seven. In 1994, she won her fifth AAAs 800m title and won the 800m at the European Cup in Gateshead, edging out Patricia Djate of France. However at that years European Championships in Helsinki, she was eliminated in the semifinals, running 2:02.18.

Modahl returned to competition in 1996 and finished second behind Kelly Holmes in the 800 metres at the British Olympic trials in June, running 1:59.87. At the Atlanta Olympic Games in August, she pulled a hamstring in her heat, 50m from the finish. In 1998, she won her sixth AAAs 800m title, before going on to win the 800m bronze medal at the Commonwealth Games in Kuala Lumpur in the world class time of 1:58.81. She competed at her fourth Olympic Games in Sydney 2000, where she was eliminated in the heats running 2:02.41. She retired in 2002 but returned several years later and represented England and won a bronze medal in the 800 metres event, at the 1998 Commonwealth Games in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

Legal challenge against positive drug test
In 1994, following a routine drug test, Modahl was sent home from the Victoria Commonwealth Games in Canada by the British Athletics Federation and subsequently banned from competition, after the results were returned positive. Modahl challenged the IAAF's drug-testing procedures and said she intended to produce evidence at the hearing which will show '' once and for all that no doping offence has been committed".

On returning to the UK, and adamant of her innocence, Diane engaged lawyers to make the case that the laboratory in Lisbon which tested her sample had major flaws in their processing. The case revealed that the laboratory had stored her urine sample on a table in the stadium in a room heated at 35 °C for three days, causing serious bacterial degradation. The evidence supported Modahl's claim of innocence and she won the case. Modahl said, "I have declared my innocence, I have never taken any banned substance".

The British Athletics Federation lifted Modahl's ban on 25 July 1995. On 25 March 1996 the IAAF cleared Modahl of the charges.

The High Court, Court of Appeal and the House of Lords in London, whose panels included prominent judges such as Lord Irvine and Lord Woolf also stated in their summaries that Modahl should be seen as being innocent of all charges.

Ultimately, the cost financially ruined Modahl and contributed to the financial collapse of the BAF in 1998, which was replaced by UK Athletics.

Modahl and her husband Vicente wrote a book about their experiences, The Diane Modahl Story - Going the Distance, published in 1995. A second updated edition was released in 1996 after Modahl won her case.

Career after athletics and charity work
Diane retired from competition in 2002 but remained heavily involved in sport.

In 2010, Diane established the Diane Modahl Sports Foundation (DMSF), a registered charity, alongside her husband, Vincente. DMSF brings athletics coaching opportunities to young people, particularly those living in disadvantaged areas.

Modahl was Lay Adviser to the Central Manchester Clinical Commissioning Group 2014–2015, Non Executive Director Primary Care Trust (PCT) NHS Manchester 2011–2014, and was previously the Chief Ambassador for the National Charity – Street Games. In 2019, she was appointed by Sports England as a member of the Talent Inclusion Advisory Group. She also became Board Trustee of the Greater Manchester Mayor’s Charity.

In 2020, she was appointed by Andy Burnham, Mayor of Greater Manchester, as the Chair of Greater Manchester’s Young Person’s Task Force, an unpaid position designed to aid the Covid-19 recovery process. This included direct engagement with young people and youth organisations as well as with colleges, training providers and business.

In 2021, Commonwealth Games England appointed Modahl to the Board as non-executive directors from 1 May.

Diane also contributes to Street Games; an initiative that harnesses the power of sport to create positive change in the lives of disadvantaged young people right across the UK, and ‘A Bed Every Night’; a scheme that supports the provision of shelter and support for people who are sleeping rough across Greater Manchester.

Honours and awards
In 2002, Diane was awarded a joint honorary degree of Doctor of Letters alongside Roger Bannister, Clive Lloyd CBE, the Rt Hon Donald McKinnon and Dr Mamphela Ramphele by the Greater Manchester Universities (Manchester Metropolitan University, University of Manchester, Salford University and UMIST) for their great contributions to the Commonwealth to mark the 17th Commonwealth Games taking place in Manchester in 2002.

In the 2018 Birthday Honours, Diane was appointed a Member of the Order of the British Empire (MBE) for services to sport and young people in North West England.

Personal life
She is married to Vicente Modahl, a Norwegian international athletics coach and players' agent licensed by the Football Association of England, as well as a UEFA/FIFA match agent.

She took part in the third series of I'm A Celebrity...Get Me Out of Here! in 2004.

Achievements

 * 6 AAA's Championships 800 metres titles (1986,87,89,92,94,98)
 * 2 UK Championships titles (1987 800m & 1990 400m)

title: Diane Modahl