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Talk:Fascism/Archive 12

Debate over terms

 * As far as I can tell, no one is rejecting examining "socialist aspects of fascism." What they (we) are objecting to is larding the article every point of coincidence between the two ideologies, for the same reasons that I (at least) would object to larding the article with every point of coincidence between fascism and U.S. government policies. -- Jmabel 22:55, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Coincidence has nothing to do w anything that should be in the article. We are talking about BIG, obvious stuff, like this . Sam Spade 23:08, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

You sure know how to pick 'em, Sam. Once again, I'll ask why you insist on contributing on this subject when you clearly know very little about it, and have, in the month I've been arguing with you about it, made absolutely no effort to find out anything beyond whatever right wing rant sites a google search brings up. john 23:21, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Did you even bother to read the info on that link? Your insults are uncalled for, and I will stop responding to you entirely if you persist with them. This portion is particularly telling, BTW. Sam Spade 23:28, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

I've certainly read the NSDAP's 25 Points before. What is notable about the more quasi-socialistic ones is that they were completely ignored in practice. Further: the comments of Time magazine in 1939 are hardly authoritative. And anyone who says that the Labour Front, which replaced labor unions with an organization dominated by employers, was a socialistic measure deserves to be laughed out of the building. Once again, you're assuming that state control or direction of the economy is inherently socialistic, despite the number of times it's been explained to you that this is not the case. john 09:54, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

 * You are right that I think "state control or direction of the economy is inherently socialistic". So do these  references. As I have been telling you all along, until we settle on one definition, its useless to discuss anything w words you have redefined to fit your ideosyncratic idealism. Sam Spade 18:20, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

Do you know what the "means of production" are, Sam? The government did not own the means of production in Nazi Germany, nor did it do so in New Deal America. The government owning the means of production is not the same thing as any government intervention in the economy. john 18:43, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Do you know what a Volkswagon is? How about War economy or John Maynard Keynes? Sam Spade 19:04, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

I know what a Volkswagen is. But one company does not ownership of the means of production make. John Maynard Keynes's economic theories have very little to do with socialism. And Germany's war economy was no more socialistic than that of any other country. At any rate, you're changing the terms of debate. You said that the dictionary.com and encyclopedia.com definitions support your view that "state control or direction of the economy is inherently socialistic." But they do not - they say that state ownership of the means of production is socialistic. That is not the same thing. It certainly has nothing to do with either Keynes or the welfare state, which seem to be the main basis for your arguments. john 19:08, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

Perspectives
I don't think that there's anything particularly problematic in claiming that the revolutionary nationalism and the ideological ferment of the late 19th century are at the roots of socialism and fascism. The thing is, that same context is at the roots of radical libertarianism, anarchism, Christian fundamentalism, and encompasses the intellectual ancestors of neoliberalism. The problem is investigating it in a way that doesn't require a full PhD thesis to explain properly. If we are to link the roots of fascism and socialism, we need to point out that the same kinds of links tie capitalism to fascism and socialism.

As for the "socialist aspects of fascism", I object to any effort to highlight them above the "capitalist aspects of socialism" - e.g., its links to German industry, to Taylorism, to financiers and industrialists like Ford and the Junkers clan, to the market nationalism of the old Prussians. Gregor used to claim that fascism was a synthesis of all the poltical doctrines of the 19th century. He considered that a good thing and I don't, but as far as it goes it might have some truth to it. But if that is the direction this article is going to take, it needs to show how fascism drew on many - by all appearances more - right wing doctrines than left wing ones.

Diderot 12:30, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

 * I second Diderot. There are plenty of aspects of the roots of fascism which could well be examined. The goal is not to prove Fascism left or right, socialist or non, but rather to provide the reader w an informative article. Examining these various aspects would serve the reader well, I should say. Sam Spade 20:11, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

To the question Fascism has its roots in Proudhon. It is Proudhonian philosophy that has guided it. Fascism is a revision of marxism. It has no reactionary philosophy in it to make it "right wing". Mussolini himself says, Fascism is revolutionary not reactionary and they are futurist. When are the words, revisionist marxism, futurist, or revolutionary going to appear in the definition of Fascism. My guess is never.WHEELER 16:10, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

 * WHEELER, you're simply restating your original claim and ignoring everything everyone has said. Please read the comments people have made and address them. AndyL 19:54, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

Address to Sam's Last in "Spinoffs"
I'm sorry, but I must agree with Jmabel. I think it's a fairly common historical fact that the "national socialist" agenda really has little to do with actual socialism; what's more, the website you linked can hardly be considered either a credible or a professional, nonbiased source. It is blatantly propagandistic in nature, and whoever wrote it has an obvious agenda outside the truth.

Do socialism and Hitlerian, Mussolinian fascism have some common threads? Sure. If anything, it's because socialism sounds really good. No matter what you think of the doctrines therein, to most people, it just does. Before the word became demonized in American press, and people had attention spans such that they'd read deeply into the subject, it's a very appealing idea, especially to a desperately poor, unenfranchised people. It promises the stars; free this, free that, we can help you. Whether fascism erupts out of that, obviously, depends upon the leader. It seems clear to me that what Hitler and Mussolini did was, essentially, piggyback socialism into office and then proceed with their higher agenda, by which time people were so enamored with them that they didn't see a need, nor possess a desire, to object to their action. Hence why Hitler KILLED all the Leftists (first part banned was the Social Democrats, you know).

In any case, the idea that they're inextricably linked at their very core is foolhardy and an injustice to the productive, harmonious, free and safe socialist societies out there (Sweden was mentioned, Norway also, Denmark, Britain, France, Spain and Italy in major ways...). There are ties, but not ones that are particularly significant today or, for that matter, then - only a matter of political expediency to those with an agenda, like blaring about despising taxes in an election year. Everyone despises taxes - until they're the ones spending the money. Wally 03:26, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Perhaps s/socialist/social democratic/ . Due to the fact that there are americans editing wikipedia, both socialism and fascism articles are as confusing as can possibly be. Hmm, I'd speculate that this might be because folks from the US have little practical experience with either, but still make up the majority of editors. see also : Talk:Socialism

Actually, Hitler did not kill all the leftists, and the Communists were the first party banned. I have no idea what this comment directly above mine means. john 09:56, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

democratic socialism/social democracy
WHY DO YOU DISCUSS THESE TOPICS HERE?? IT IS NOT THE PLACE HERE TO DEFINE THESE TERMS.

 * Sorry, a regexp slipped in there. In Wallys comment, perhaps he meant to say social democratic instead of socialist, else his statement might appear ambiguous or misleading to people from the USA. Hmph, this place is confusing enough as it is. Kim Bruning 11:47, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Although an American, my impression of social democracy is that it's simply a watered down version of democratic socialism. When I think of socialism, generally it's Nordic-style democratic socialism that pops into my head, not revolutionary socialism a la...well, not so much Russia, but I guess that's close enough (when I think of revolutionary socialism, that gets tagged as communism in my mind, perhaps erroneously).  Sorry if that lends confusion, but I don't think social democracy is necessarily something that can simply be subbed in there - there seem to be major divergences to me.

 * Of course, I could just be crazy, too. Could someone correct me if my terminology's wrong? Wally 16:08, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Looked 'em both up on wikipedia itself. As the names already suggest, there's not terribly much difference in practice between social democracy or democratic socialism I think. Either is ok for EU membership, so there you have it. :) Kim Bruning 17:43, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Surely the big difference is that private property is still considered legitimate in Social Democracy, whereas in democratic socialism most things would be publicly owned. Social Democracy is essentially capitalist. Cadr

 * The countries which are given as examples of democratic socialism on wikipedia also recognize private property. I'm beginning to doubt if there is a significant amount of difference between the 2, especially not if applied by a coalition government. Kim Bruning 12:36, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Sounds like a fairly clear instance of Wikipedia being wrong. If there's private ownership of the means of production on any large scale, it's not democratic socialism in the usual sense of the word. Refering to countries such as Sweden as socialist seems to be mostly an American thing, perhaps because the political spectrum there is shifted to the right so much that there's not much point making fine distinctions between opinions on the left. Cadr

The terms were largely interchangable in the past and prior to WWI everyone from Eduard Bernstein to Vladimir Lenin called themselves social democrats. In practice today people who call themselves democratic socialists tend to be on the left wing of social democratic or labour parties and believe that a transformation to a socialist society is possible. People who call themselves social democrats tend to be on the right of these parties and don't in practice believe a socialist transformation is possible and believe that all that is possible (or even desirable) is to make capitalism more humane. Those who remain Marxists (but not necessarily Leninist) would be more likely to call themselves Democratic Socialists though not all democratic socialists are Marxists. I don't think you can really speak of "social democratic" countries versus "democratic socialist" countires, at least not at present. AndyL 13:12, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

ADDING: I don't think there are any "democratic socialist" countries at present either (nor do I think there are any socialist countries but others on the left would contest that). You can argue that states with a highly developed welfare state and income redistribution are "social democratic" as long as that doesn't mean the aren't also capitalist. AndyL 21:33, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

 * While not claiming expertise, everything AndyL says here sounds about right to me in terms of how I've heard the words used by people in roughly that part of the political spectrum. But why are we discussing these nuances in a page about fascism? -- Jmabel 23:35, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

 * Topic drift, I guess.

 * So does anyone object to deleting the Nazism vs. socialism section, then? Haven't heard any nay votes yet, if I recall, and that could at least be a start at chopping this mother down a bit. Wally 23:54, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

Proudhon was a socialist. an anarchist. He advocated private property and the keeping of it. (That is just how much you people know.)

Socialism by Ludwig von Mises, Indianapolis, 1981. "Fascism and Nazism were socialist dictatorships." "Guild socialism". "Communists and Fellow travellers stigmatize Nazism and Fascism as the last and most depraved stage of capitalism." "Fascism was a variety of Italian socialism." Communists label "all non-communist countries and parties are essentially undemocratic and Fascist." pg 523.WHEELER 00:06, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

Wheeler, I'm fully aware of who Proudhon was, I'm just saying that his influence on fascism is relatively indirect, mainly via the anarcho-syndicalists, most of whom did not become fascists or anything like. I really don't like it when people presume me to be ignorant, and choose to be nasty about it, to boot. I didn't spell out everything I know about Proudhon (which would take quite a while) in the discussion above because this is an article about fascism, not about 19th century anarchism.-- Jmabel 00:24, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

I've just reread the "Fascism vs. socialism" section. It could certainly use some good editing, and maybe a new title, and maybe it doesn't even all belong in one section, but I have to say, most of the content there belongs in an encyclopedia. The long Mussolini quote is apt (though Gentile's presumed role as ghostwriter should be mentioned). The views of Arendt & Hayek on totalitarianism are relevant, as are those of their critics (some of whom should be named and possibly quoted). The rest is less crucial, but if someone wants to remove them outright from the article, I think they need to be taken up one by one. -- Jmabel 00:34, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

Mr. Jmabel, Lagradelle was also a syndicalist. Most of the anarchosyndicalists moved into Italian socialism. Look up all the names at the syndicalism site here. Two of the Italians were with Mussolini in l919 and created it with him. Proudhon developed out the France and the dialectic made by the French Revolution. It is his spirit that moves Fascism. WHEELER 14:44, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

WHEELER, the fact that some anarchists became fascist does not make fascism and anarchism (or fascism and syndicalism) the same thing. You're being very crudely determinist in your analysis. A lot of western missionaries who went to China became Maoists (quite a lot actually) and, indeed, quite a number of Christian ministers became socialists and Marxists in the late 19th and early to mid 20th century. By your logic this means that Marxism is Christian. Do you not understand that fascism is the product of a number of influences? It amazes me how the dozens of writers who point out how fascism is a reaction to the French Revolution and the industrial revolution completely fail to make an impact on you. It seems to me that you're approaching this whole question with tunnel vision. You hunt and peck for small grains that support your viewpoint while ignoring grainaries full of evidence that do not support your thesis and then you isolate the one or two grains you like and say THIS IS THE TRUTH! IT'S SO SIMPLE, A LEADS TO B THERE IS NO OTHER EXPLANATION. To say that fascism *is* Proudhonism is absurd beyond belief. An influence in fascist rhetoric, ok, the alpha and omega of fascism? Don't be ridiculous. AndyL

Category:Anti-Semitism
have removed Category:Anti-Semitism. the fascist government both protected and attacked jews; and some jews were members of the party. Badanedwa 00:51, Jun 16, 2004 (UTC)

 * I've restored Category:Anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism was a key component of fascism in Germany, France and the UK, as well as a number of other countries. In Italy, anti-Semitism was a less important factor, but still a factor.

 * It's true that there were Jews in the party, and Jews who supported the party without joining; that Mussolini, first and foremost an opportunist, courted the Jewish population when he thought they had something to offer, even supporting the Zionist platform; and that there were no legal provisions against Jews until 1938, and that some individual members of the party protected Jewish friends and acquaintances against the party line (I'm not aware of the party itself ever passing leigslation that protected Jews). Italy didn't have an existing anti-Semitic culture to exploit, as most countries in northern Europe did, so anti-Semitism was not as important in the Fascisti as in other fascist movements - but it was there.

 * There was a strong under-current throughout the history of the Fascist party, which bought into notions, popular in Germany and other countries in the north of Europe, of damaging miscegenation among the people of southern Europe; this was subsumed by the nationalist impulse which saw the Italian people as special and having a manifest destiny, but there was a clear drive to prevent further "miscegenation". Most importantly, there was active discrimination against Jews in Italy from at least 1930 - it wasn't written into law, but Jews (including Jewish members of the party) were purged from employment in government institutions. I believe the Fascists' stated reason was that Jews had mixed loyalites.

 * -- Gregg 14:05, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

This proves, once again, that we need separate articles on Italian Fascism, and Fascism in general. Sigh. john k 17:35, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * Concur. -- Jmabel 18:39, Jun 18, 2004 (UTC)

 * To my mind it'd be better to split it up (probably same with communism) into a page on the doctrine and then a page on the movements. On the doctrine pages purity of thought and scholarship within the movement can be discussed, and on the movements page the real world effects can be detailed.  That way, we can do a sort of umbrella thing instead of having a page for Italian fascism and a page for everything else, which would rather be like having a page for the UN Security Council and a seperate one for the US Ambassador. Wally 02:06, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Huh? Italian Fascism, and the Italian Fascist Party, were a specific political movement, and ought to have their own page (or pages) just as we have Nazism and National Socialist German Workers Party. Fascism, more broadly, is a concept which might be said to include a system of government, a type of political movement, and a doctrine (or whatever). Conflating the two can only be confusing. Beyond that, I don't think splitting up discussion of the movement and discussion of the "doctrine" is very valuable. Unlike, say, Marxism, where doctrine was important and relatively consistent, I don't think it can really even be said that there is such a thing as a Fascist "doctrine" or "purity of thought", or whatever. Fascist movements in different countries have been so widely varied in ideology, that such discussion is probably not very worthwhile. What unites fascist movements is not ideology, but method - it is as political movements that they show themselves to be similar, not as ideologies. john k 02:39, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * There should definitely be an article on the FIC/PNF, and some of this page's content could be moved there. But I think a separate article on Italian fascism would be misleading and would simply duplicate information which would need to remain on this page to detail the history of fascism. All political systems are manifested with different characteristics in different countries, but these are united by core ideology (and the core ideology of Italian fascism is the same as the core ideology of British fascism, Spanish fascism, etc.). It would be profoundly wrong to treat Italian fascism as a different system. I'd say the only manifestation of fascism that really merits separate consideration is Nazism, because of its historical impact and because its individual doctrine was very particular and complex. (Incidentally, fascist movements haven't been that widely divergent in ideology. There is a core ideology common to all of them, and the variations in doctrine are down to the spin, if you like, put on this ideology by the over-riding cultural factors and political situations of each different nation.) -- Gregg 04:02, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It should not be under the category of Anti-Semitism. In fact, Jabotinsky admired Italian fascism and modelled his own movement on it. Danny 02:41, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * Jabotinsky was another opportunist and several times proved himself happy to over-look anti-Semitism if he thought the anti-Semite in question could be of use, particularly when it came to fighting the British. I doubt he had any genuine admiration for Mussolini, even if he publicly declared otherwise, and I presume he ended this public support in or before 1938. This article should be listed under the category of anti-Semitism because every fascist movement was anti-Semitic to some degree, and that includes the movement in Italy (and a seperate article on the PNF should be included in this category as much as Vichy France). -- Gregg 04:40, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Well, many individual fascist movements, (the Nazis most spectacularly) were certainly anti-semitic. Italian Fascism was not particularly so. This article is consistently unclear as to whether it is about fascism generally or Italian Fascism. Which is why we need to split it up first. I'd add that I'm not sure a Category:Anti-Semitism is appropriate to begin with. john k 02:51, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)

i was to restore it, but user gregg did. it is appropriate if the party was ever misojudaic. (the term "anti-semitism" is incorrect and should be changed.) User talk:Badanedwa 04:49, Jun 20, 2004 (UTC)

Why on earth should anybody take anything seriously coming from somebody who says that we should be using the term "Misojudaic?" Seriously. john k 04:51, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * argumentum ad hominem. the definitions of "semite" and "judaic" support such usage. only slang opposes it. Badanedwa 21:06, Jun 23, 2004 (UTC)
 * I agree that "misojudaic" has a better etymology than "antisemitic", but "antisemitic" is a common English-language word, and "misojudaic" is not. -- Jmabel 22:15, Jun 23, 2004 (UTC)
 * obviously. hence i will not strongly oppose its usage. Badanedwa 04:44, Jun 24, 2004 (UTC)

English language usage is not "slang". "Anti-semitic" is an English word which means "person who hates Jews", whatever its etymology. "Misojudaic" is not a word - it's in neither the OED nor dictionary.com. Wikipedia is not in the business of inventing words. The suggestion that we should be making up words when there is a perfectly good word that already means what you want to invent a new word is silly. The fact that you want to use this made up word in an encyclopedia is absolutely ridiculous. john k 22:22, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * more ad hominem. "misojudaic" is in less-common usage, and was not my invention. "perfectly good" requires existence of another term for "dislike of semites". Badanedwa 04:55, Jun 24, 2004 (UTC)
 * Ad hominem? I never said you invented the word.  I said it is a made up word.  Which it is.  It is not to be found in dictionaries, and it comes up with all of 20 google hits.  And "anti-semitism" is never going to mean "dislike of semites," so that's a red herring.  If "Misojudaic" ever becomes a well used term, to be found in dictionaries and common usage, then it would be fine to use it.  But it's ridiculous to suggest that Wikipedia should start using a term nobody's heard of before that comes up with 20 hits on google just because its etymology is better than the word that is actually used to mean the same thing. john k 05:01, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * i suggest users not base factual decisions on this kind of hyperbolic emotional commentary. Badanedwa 04:52, Jun 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * Emotional? john k 04:59, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * and: "And "anti-semitism" is never going to mean "dislike of semites," so that's a red herring." is wrong, as that is what the word means, ipso facto. Badanedwa 04:58, Jun 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * No, it is not. The word means "hatred of Jews."  It has always meant this, was coined to mean that, and shows no signs of stopping meaning that. john k 04:59, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * "anti-semitism" was created as a self-description for opposition to the "danger" of "semites" mixing nation and race, and to political "semitism". Badanedwa 22:56, Jun 27, 2004 (UTC)

social composition of Fascist movements
The following paragraph has been removed.
 * The social composition of Fascist movements have historically been small capitalists, low-level bureaucrats of all stripes and the middle classes. Also with great success in rural areas, especially among farmers, peasants, and in the city, slum workers. Meanwhile, fascist leadership invariably comes to power through the sponsorship and funding of big capitalists. A key feature of fascism is that it uses it's mass movement to attack the organisations of the working class - parties of the left and trades unions.

May I ask if it's considered factually false, or if it's just the wording that motivates its removal? --Ruhrjung 17:36, 2004 Jun 16 (UTC)
 * as the edit comment stated, it is phrased as marxist propaganda. i am unfamiliar with the relavent composition stats. Badanedwa 04:31, Jun 17, 2004 (UTC)

 * I can't speak to it, but it seems factually accurate to me from where I am; I'm not intimately familiar with the movements themselves, however, rather more with fascists in government and post-revolution. Wally 06:12, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hmm...I think it could be phrased better. It seems a bit gratingly marxist as it stands. But I don't think it's essentially wrong, and I think it could probably be salvaged. Of course, the article as a whole is kind of a mess, so perhaps it's not worth it. Among other things, we need to separate out a discussion of "Fascism" as general phenomenon from a discussion of Italian fascism and the Italian Fascist Party of Mussolini. john k 06:30, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Social composition of fascist movements
I have reworded my previous, clumsy, contribution:

The social composition of Fascist movements have historically been small capitalists, low-level bureaucrats and the middle classes. Fascism also with great success in rural areas, especially among farmers, peasants, and in the city, slum workers. A key feature of fascism is that it uses it's mass movement to attack the organisations of the working class - parties of the left and trades unions.

Now, this may be Marxist. It MAY be used as propaganda. It is accurate, however. There has been research done on the social composition of fascist movements which supports this. As for the attack on the left and unions, well...could anyone argue the accuracy of that? John Ball

I certainly wouldn't. I would say that Nazism, at least, was quite successful with the non-unionized working classes, as well. Don't know if this was the case in Italy. john k 16:33, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The only part I can envision as not being totally accurate - without, mind you, having any concrete information either way upon which to call - is the bit about the bureaucrats. Middle classes, smaller capitalists make sense, and it's beyond dispute that the working poor took to fascism under promise of stronger government and jobs. But I've not ever heard of bureaucrats being a force in any fascism - take it with a grain of salt, however, I'm shooting from the hip.

Also, "Fascism also with great success in rural areas" should probably be fixed to something that makes sense. That, and what are "slum workers", exactly? Wally 22:13, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yes, "slum workers" sounds clumsy. I mean what Marx would have referred to as "lumpen proletariat" but such a term sounds terribly dated. "Disposessed", "socially marginalised" I guess would be more modern sounding terms. And the "making sense" bit.....makes sense. By "bureaucrats" I mean the lower managers, civil servants, supervisors and foremen...perhaps I should say that? John Ball 14.20 22/6/04.

 * I don't see a reason not to use lumpenproletariat, since we have an article for it to explain what exactly it qualifies (which is how I learned what it was); otherwise, to an "intelligent layman" (if you like) it's going to seem like groups of the poor fighting for fascists against communists or socialists is inherently... contradictory.

 * And as long as "bureaucrats" is accurate, I see no reason not to use that... I was just unsure as to the veracity of it, but I definitely defer to you on it - I'm here to contribute general advice, not specific doctrinal/historical critique. Wally 16:26, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Okay, lumpenproletariat it is. I've also trawled through the Marxist Internet Archive: http://www.marxists.org and that helped clarify. John Ball

 * Lumpenproletariat is accurate, but a little... unwieldy. If I understand the meaning of lumpenproletariat correctly (and I've never been sure), the current equivalent term (in the UK at least) is "underclass". -- Gregg 14:34, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * According to what we have here at Wikipedia, "lumpy proles" (as I'll call them in lieu of writing the whole god-awful word) are the underclass, yes, but remember that regular proles are also the underclass. Realistically, lumpy proles are a seperate and distinct underclass, those engaged in sociologically non-productive labor who are unwilling to take coordinated action even to support themselves and are often supported by the largesse of the upper classes, whom they will then have a vested interest in preserving and thus function as a counter-revolutionary force (albeit not a terribly effective one). Wally 16:31, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * Lumpenproletariat is fine with me, but it should be in scare quotes. john k 02:57, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * Agreed. Wally 03:23, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * If Fascism attacks trade unions why did it evolve out of the Anrch-syndicalist movement??? It didn't attack trade unions.  It came from the syndicalist movement.WHEELER 13:14, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * You're saying that fascism, which attacked trade unions, didn't attack trade unions? You're saying that fascism, a conservative and reactionary system, evolved out of anarcho-syndicalism, the very picture of progressive and revolutionary ideology? (In reaction to, yes, in part; but not "out of".) I'm sorry, but you are inverting historical facts. -- Gregg 14:34, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * Fascism did not really evolve out of anarcho-syndicalism or come from syndicalism, the relationship between the two seems superficial. Trades unions were suppressed under Mussolini, Franco and Hitler. John Ball

 * Fascism certainly did not "evolve out of" anarcho-syndicalism. Mussolini himself was never an anarcho-syndicalist, and in most countries there is little overlap between people who ever adhered to the two ideologies. Nonetheless, it is worth noting that a significant number of Italian anarcho-syndicalists did become fascists, and there is little doubt that anarcho-syndicalist "direct action" influenced fascists tactics. -- Jmabel 18:52, Jun 23, 2004 (UTC)

 * Look at a fairly successful social movement that preceded you, take what works, leave the rest. Fairly common prescription for power in the last century. Wally 01:45, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * I hate to throw cold water on you people but Mussolini did not coin the term Fascism nor start the core party. From Zeev Sternhell; pg 140 Birth of Fascist Ideology:
 * a number of revolutionary syndicalists not left the USI and at the beginning of October 1914, founded the Fascio rivoluzionario D'azione internazionalista. Mussolini joined this movement.WHEELER 17:00, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * I don't see anywhere either in the article or the talk page where someone has said that Mussolini coined the term Fascism or started the core party. On the other hand, the article should probably make it clearer that he didn't. Someone should edit accordingly. -- Jmabel 21:46, Jun 26, 2004 (UTC)

 * Jmabel, yes the that first fascist party I stated was made by anarchosyndicalists. Read the ideological section.WHEELER 20:16, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

On preventing duplication of effort (it)
Hi, I've just noticed the request posted by Kim Bruning on it:Discussioni:Fascismo, for a coordination of the articles in en: it: and de:. Itlaian wikipedia is still relatively small, and this is a subject on which we are starting to discuss. As you can imagine this is a hot topic in Italy, as we have some problem to discuss it in an NPOV fashion. I still haven't read the english article, but I would like to tell that, afaik, the term fascism in english has a broader meaning than in italian. In Italy, Fascismo is bound to italian fascism, the extension to other similar forms of regime (especially nazism), is always debated by the right, while the left tends to make no distinction of the two. Aniway seems we are starting to discuss on it, if the thing evolves, we will let you know what we will come up with. Regards, Snowdog 07:44, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * the extraneous/non-fascist sections will have to be removed first. after that, i'll assist. Badanedwa 04:57, Jun 20, 2004 (UTC)

english/american spelling
My impression was that more often than not, British English spellings were used over American English spellings in this article, but that the article wasn't sticking to either dialect exclusively. This is a problem, as we should stay consistent in each article, either using American English exclusively or British English exclusively. Since my impression was that the article leaned toward the latter, I changed the spellings changed some spellings so that the words are compatible with American English. 172 19:28, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * Wait, but if it was leaning towards British English, why did you change it to American? My opinion is (and I am American, mind you) that we ought to default to British English when there's a conflict, as it's more likely to be internationally-recognized. Wally 00:43, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * When I regularise the spelling of an article, I opt for the variety that happens to predominate within the text. In this case, if British was dominant, I feel that the US forms should have been changed to British. Also, I regularise the entire article, not just "some spellings". Ditto for punctuation (the use or otherwise of the "Oxford comma") and other stylistic matters.

 * I agree that the British forms, being international, should be preferred. Shorne 06:48, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * We can be inconsistent and call it Canadian spelling ;) AndyL 20:48, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Most articles of any length have inconsistent speelings on Wikipedia, since most people are confortable spelling things the way they were taught. Kingal86 17:44, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC) (from South England)

This discussion provides an excellent example of regional variations in English: here in Canada, we write the plural noun form as 'spellings' instead of 'speelings'. ;-) Kevintoronto 19:55, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Tiny error
In the part about either the origins of fascism or the history of fascism and the church, the article previously and wrongly stated that RerumNovarum was authored and propounded by Pope Leo XII. Its from 1891, not 1820's, and it was authored by Pope Leo XIII. But its meaning and content was otherwise dead on. Hey whats up Jmabel!!? Its meeee. Capone 12 Jul 2004 (WTF)

title: Talk:Fascism/Archive 12


text:
Claude E. Cady

Claude Ernest Cady (May 28, 1878 – November 30, 1953) was a politician and businessman from the U.S. state of Michigan.

Cady was born in Lansing, Michigan, where he attended the common schools and the high school. He engaged in the wholesale and retail grocery business from 1899 to 1913. He was active in the amusement business, being owner of three theaters in Lansing (including the Capitol and Gladmer Theaters), and also had financial interests in other Michigan cities from 1914 to 1925, He was in the wholesale candy and fountain supplies business from 1925 to 1932. Cady served as a member of the Lansing board of aldermen 1910-1917 and was a member of the Lansing Police and Fire Commission 1918–1928.

In 1932, Cady defeated Republican Seymour H. Person in the general election to be elected as a Democrat from Michigan's 6th congressional district to the U.S. House of Representatives for the 73rd Congress, serving from March 4, 1933, to January 3, 1935. He was defeated by Republican William W. Blackney in 1934.

Cady served as postmaster in Lansing 1935–1943, after which he retired from political and business life. He died in Lansing and is interred in Mount Hope Cemetery there.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Claude E. Cady


text:
User talk:Balf

Hi, how did you find the Votes_for_deletion/Critic_of_Finno_Ugric_and_Uralic_language_Groups page? Nyenyec 20:55, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:Balf


text:
User talk:Alex Jaspersen

Welcome!

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title: User talk:Alex Jaspersen


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User talk:Omniflame

Welcome!

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ArbCom elections are now open!
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title: User talk:Omniflame


text:
User talk:Gansan

Welcome!

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title: User talk:Gansan


text:
Ollie Hopnoodle's Haven of Bliss

Ollie Hopnoodle's Haven of Bliss is a 1988 American made-for-television comedy film written by Jean Shepherd and directed by Dick Bartlett, based on the 1968 short story by Shepherd. A satire of childhood recollections of annual family vacations, it follows the Parker family (of A Christmas Story) as they travel to a Michigan lakeside camp, the eponymous Haven. It was a co-production of The Disney Channel and PBS, and aired in that order, and was released on video.

Plot
The blue-collar working world of 1950s Indiana, with period-style footage and clips from Fritz Lang's Metropolis, is accompanied by Shepherd's voiceover narration as the adult Ralph. The fourteen-year-old Ralph and friends, Flick and Schwartz, endure bureaucratic "terminal official boredom", to get their "working papers", to be able to apply for their first summer jobs.

The next day at breakfast, Ralph announces that he, Flick, and Schwartz have job interviews, and Mom notices that the family dog, Fuzzhead (Shepherd's dog Daphne ) seems to be missing. Adult Ralph describes this as the beginning of the "Scary Fuzzhead Saga, which traumatized our family for years". The three friends interview at Scott's Used Furniture Palace, where adult Ralph describes the owner as "a cross between Rasputin and The Wolfman" (played in the film by Shepherd himself). They are hired, in "a truly historic moment". They fantasize about what they'll do with all the money they'll make. Clocking in on the job, they proceed to their first assignment - depicted in stock footage as enslaved workers descending to a dark basement. Mom calls the police to report Fuzzhead's disappearance and announces to the Old Man, as he leaves for work, that she's "not going on any vacation" until she is found. She posts hand-drawn "reward" posters for her return and places an ad in the newspaper. The Old Man, at the Bluebird, the neighborhood bar, laments the likely delay of his vacation. The first day of Ralph's moving job is difficult and exhausting, as they struggle to move a mammoth refrigerator up five flights of stairs. At dinner Ralph is so sore and stiff his joints creak and pop. The next day, back on the job, they move an identical refrigerator up another seven flights of stairs. Over the next two weeks, Ralph "toils ceaselessly" at Scott's, while Mom relentlessly "like Ahab" searches for Fuzzhead, with visits to dog pounds and repeatedly dragging the Old Man out to drive around looking for her. At night, Ralph has eerie nightmares, including a towering, laughing refrigerator. The next day, having seen Mom's badly-sketched reward posters, "people from three counties arrived with their mutts, trying for the big reward". Ralph's summer job ends abruptly when they are fired. Then "a miracle" happens - the Old Man, driving around again with Mom, spots Fuzzhead in the rear window of a black Rolls-Royce, and gives chase, all the way to the home of the rich dowager at whose doorstep she appeared. She returns to the family home, left with "only her memories", a montage of meals on crystal and pampered treatment. At dinner, Ralph fibs, saying he quit his job to spend time with the family. As a result, they are free to pack and, as adult Ralph describes, begin their "epic" road trip.

The trip includes drastic overpacking of the brown Chevy sedan, a reluctant starter motor, an endlessly carsick and complaining Randy, side trips to shop for unnecessary "slob art", a flat tire, running out of gas as the Old Man insists on only "Texas Royal Supreme Blue" gasoline, a misadventure at a gas station with an unseen enormous growling "meers hound", a boiled-over radiator as an occasion for a roadside picnic, and a missed detour sign and resulting circular detour due to squabbling among the kids. In the middle of a pasture, as cows surround the car, adult Ralph describes the scene: "beset on all sides by strange creatures, the lost mariner searches and searches, in the Sargasso sea of life". Rounding out the road trip, more unnecessary shopping, a Dutch lawn windmill being bought and put on top of the car, Ralph's confession of forgetting the fishing tackle, being stuck behind a live poultry truck, and panic over another "magically appearing" carbound bee. When they finally arrive at Clear Lake, the Old Man learns that the fish have stopped biting. Ralph discovers the Old Man had packed the fishing tackle after all, and they walk out onto the boat ramp to take in the view, as a few drops of rain fall. A torrential downpour develops, and in the cabin, leaks from the roof drip into every available pot and basin, as adult Ralph describes, all day, everyday of their vacation. At bedtime, Mom reassures him that the Old Man loves him, even though he never calls him by his real name (just "watermelon", "radish-top", "cookie cutter", etc.). A lightning strike knocks out power to the rain-drenched lakeside camp's welcome sign, and the credits roll.

Cast

 * Adult Ralph: Jean Shepherd
 * Old Man: James Sikking
 * Mom: Dorothy Lyman
 * Young Ralph: Jerry O'Connell
 * Randy: Jason Clarke Adams
 * Scott: Jean Shepherd
 * Flick: Cameron Johann
 * Schwartz: Ross Eldridge
 * Cop: Bill McDonald
 * Clerk: Marjorie O'Neill-Butler
 * Johnson: Edward Logan
 * Archie: W. Clapham Murray
 * Zudoc: Frank T. Wells
 * Gertz: Peter Gerety
 * John: Robert T. Colonna
 * Ace: Arnie Cox
 * Mrs. Kissel: Leslie Harrell
 * Animal Shelter Assistant: Dorothy Chiesa
 * Chauffeur: Martin Rayner
 * Colette: Annabelle Weenick
 * Grannie: John William Galt
 * Gas Station Attendant: Peyton Park
 * Leopold Doppler: Desmond Dhooge
 * Fuzzhead: Daphne

Story and early screenplay
Shepherd originally wrote the story, upon which the film is based, in 1968 as one of a series for Playboy Magazine between 1966 and 1970. The stories were later published in Shepherd's collection Wanda Hickey's Night of Golden Memories in 1971. Shepherd later described his stories as not based literally on childhood memories: "People are always trying to make me sound like I'm just writing what happened to me. You know, I'm a humorist and a filmmaker. I don't think my stuff is any more autobiographical than, say, Woody Allen's is - or anybody who is involved in making serious films."

Television comedy director John Rich wrote in his memoir that in the 1970s he commissioned Shepherd to write a screenplay from Hopnoodle's, as a possible series pilot episode for the ABC television network. He described the script as quite faithful to the story, but problems with management during production prevented that script from being released on American television.

Production
The film was a co-production of "Disney, public TV's American Playhouse and Boston public TV station WGBH", funded by Disney, under the terms, according to Shepherd, that "they would have nothing to do with production." Fred Barzyk was producer for this film, as he was for Shepherd's other work for WGBH. It was produced from Shepherd's studio in Florida, and exterior scenes were shot in several locations around Dallas, Texas, to stand in for the film's "Hohman, Indiana".

Releases
The film originally aired numerous times on the Disney Channel beginning August 6, 1988, then shortly thereafter on PBS nationwide, and was released by Walt Disney Home Video on VHS in 1993.

Recognition
The film was nominated for a Cable ACE Award for "Best Movie or Miniseries" in 1988.

Reception
Reviews ranged from mildly negative to positive. Upon its inaugural airing on the Disney Channel in 1988, The Lexington Herald-Leader called the film "pleasant", but thought the beginning of the film might seem too similar to National Lampoon's Vacation to viewers unfamiliar with Shepherd's work. Daniel Ruth of the Chicago Sun-Times gave the film three stars, described it as "cute", and a "wistful, yet chaotic drive down memory lane", and stated, Shepherd "never loses" his "ability to see the world through a child's eyes".

In 1989, prior to the film's broadcast on PBS, Irv Letovsky of the Los Angeles Times was blasé, calling the film, "a lot of cute", but "though cute, this is sort of a compendium of how things used to be", also noting that "some of the older generation might enjoy the diversion." New Jersey Star-Ledger reviewer Jerry Krupnick found the film "hilarious" and "super fun", but declared that the role Shepherd took on for himself in the first 30 minutes of the film only stretched a "nifty 90-minute comedy" to two hours, and made it "cluttered". Time magazine listed Ollie Hopnoodle as a "Critic's Choice" for viewers in 1989.

Sequels
Ollie Hopnoodle's Haven of Bliss was the last film of the Parker Family film series to be produced and distributed for television. By this time, Shepherd was making far more money from the reruns and home video sales from A Christmas Story and decided to focus on producing another feature film. The film's direct follow-up, It Runs in the Family: My Summer Story, was released in 1994 in theaters.

title: Ollie Hopnoodle's Haven of Bliss


text:
Jan Decleir

Jan Decleir (born as Jan Amanda Gustaaf Decleir on 14 February 1946) is a prolific Belgian movie and stage actor born in Niel, Antwerp.

Career
He had his first big role in Fons Rademakers's Mira (1971). Since then, he has appeared in countless Flemish and Dutch films and TV productions. In the world of theater he gained his fame by acting at the International New Scene for the play Mistero Buffo by Dario Fo. To the larger audiences of television he became known through his role of Sil de strandjutter in 1976 in the equally named TV series. He starred in Academy Award winning movies including Karakter by Mike van Diem and Antonia and the Oscar-nominated social drama Daens. More recently he turned down roles in Stanley Kubrick's Eyes Wide Shut (due to commitments to other projects) and the James Bond film The World Is Not Enough. Decleir was also Belgium's national performer of Sinterklaas from 1993 until 2019.

In 2003 he had the starring role in the critically acclaimed thriller The Memory of a Killer (The Alzheimer Case) of which the leading American critic Roger Ebert wrote in his review: ''"Jan Decleir never goes for the easy effect, never pushes too hard, is a rock-solid occupant of his character. Everything he has to say is embodied, not expressed. Talks are under way for a Hollywood remake, but this performance will not be easily equaled. Gene Hackman, maybe. Morgan Freeman. Robert Mitchum, if he were alive. Decleir is the real thing." ''

For several years he also led the Studio Herman Teirnlick where he brought in many new teachers: actors from various theater companies (e.g., de Blauwe Maandag Compagnie, STAN, etc.).

Personal life
Jan Decleir has been married to Brechtje Louwaard since 1 April 2006. He was previously married to Caroline van Gastel with whom he has 3 children (Sofie, Jenne and Flor). Both his siblings – sister Reinhilde Decleir (died in 2022) and brother Dirk Decleir (died in 1974) involved in acting, too.

Honors and awards
Over the lifespan of his career Jan Decleir has received several prizes for his acting. He was awarded the Best Actor Award for his role in Off Screen (directed by Pieter Kuijpers) at the Montreal World Film Festival. In 2003 he received Golden Calf Culture Prize (Dutch: Gouden Kalf) and in 2007 a Golden Calf for Best Supporting Actor for the movie Wolfsbergen at the Netherlands Film Festival. In 2008 he was awarded the best actor prize at the Tiburon International Film Festival for his role in Man zkt vrouw (A Perfect Match). For his role in The Barons, he received the Magritte Award for Best Supporting Actor. In 2013 he also received the Flemish Culture Prize for General Cultural Merit.

Overview
The movie Karakter in which Decleir played the leading role, won the Academy Award for best international feature film in 1997. Prior, Daens was nominated for this Oscar in 1992.
 * Shanghai International Film Festival - Golden Goblet: 1993 (Daens)
 * Nederlands Film Festival
 * Grolsch Film Award: 1997 (Karakter)
 * Best Actor nomination: 1997 (Karakter)
 * Dutch Culture Award: 2003
 * Best Supporting Actor: 2007 (Wolfsbergen)
 * Best Supporting Actor nomination: 2015 (The Surprise)
 * Paris Film Festival - Best Actor: 1998 (Karakter)
 * European Film Festival
 * Actor of the Year nomination: 1993 (Daens)
 * Best European Actor nomination: 2003 (Hop)
 * Joseph Plateau Award - Best Belgian Actor: 1993 (Daens), 1998 (Karakter), 2004 (The Alzheimer Case)
 * Montréal World Film Festival - Best Actor: 2005 (Off Screen)
 * Gulden Mira (nl) Career Prize: 2005
 * Tiburon International Film Festival - Best Actor: 2008 (A Perfect Match)
 * Magritte Awards - Best Supporting Actor: 2010 (The Barons)
 * Golden Film Award: 2011 (Nova Zembla)
 * Film by the Sea - Grand Acting Award: 2013
 * Ostend Film Festival - Best Actor nomination: 2019 (Niet Schieten)

Filmography
Decleir appeared in more than hundred Belgian, Dutch, French and German movies.

 * Heeft Geleden onder Pontius Pilatus (1966)
 * Geboorte en Dood van Dirk Vandersteen jr. (1968)
 * Het Huis met de Maskers (1968)
 * De Meeuw (1968)
 * Klucht van de Brave Moordenaar (1969)
 * Koning Lear (1969)
 * Het Helleschip (1969)
 * Zeven Miljoen Molekulen (1970)
 * De Familie Tot (1971)
 * Mira, aka Mira of de Teleurgang van de Waterhoek (1971)
 * August, August, August (1971)
 * Rolande met de Bles (1972)
 * The Conscript (1973)
 * De Vrek (1974)
 * Verloren Maandag (1974)
 * Way Out (1974)
 * Verbrande Brug (1975)
 * Pallieter (1976)
 * De Man in de Rok en de Man zonder (1976)
 * Niet Alle Dieven Komen Ongelegen (1976)
 * Als Schilders Konden Spreken (1976)
 * Une Page d'Amour (1978)
 * Doodzonde (1978)
 * De Proefkonijnen (1979)
 * Grueten Broos (1979)
 * Le Grand Paysage d'Alexis Droeven (1981)
 * Twee Vorstinnen en een Vorst (1981)
 * Tijd om Gelukkig te Zijn (1982)
 * Het Verleden (1982)
 * Toute une nuit (1982)
 * Maria Danneels (of het Leven dat We Droomden) (1982)
 * Zware Jongens (1984)
 * De Loteling (1984)
 * John The Fearless (1984)
 * De Leeuw van Vlaanderen (1985)
 * The van Paemel Family (1986)
 * De Tijger (1988)
 * Het Eerste Mirakel van Kindeke Jesus (1988)
 * Het Sacrament (1990)
 * Koko Flanel (1990)
 * Dilemma (1990)
 * Anchoress (1993)
 * Daens (1993)
 * Beck - De Gesloten Kamer (1993)
 * Antonia's Line (1995)
 * Camping Cosmos (1996)
 * Character (1997)
 * S. (1998)
 * Taming the Floods (1999)
 * Retour Den Haag (1999)
 * Molokai: The Story of Father Damien (aka Molokai: The Forbidden Island) (1999)
 * Shades (1999)
 * Kruimeltje (1999)
 * Running Free (2000)
 * Lijmen/Het Been (2000)
 * Mariken (2000)
 * De Omweg (2000)
 * De Verlossing ( aka The Other Life) (2001)
 * Villa des Roses (2002)
 * Hop (2002)
 * Brush with Fate (2003)
 * Rosenstraße (2003)
 * SuperTex (= Supertex – Eine Stunde im Paradies) (2003)
 * Till Eusterspiegel (=Jester Till) (2003)
 * Vlucht der verbeelding (2003)
 * De Zaak Alzheimer (2003)
 * L'Autre (=The Missing) (2003)
 * De Passievrucht (=Father's Affair) (2003)
 * Edelweißpiraten (2004)
 * De Kus (=The Kiss) (2004)
 * Off Screen (2005)
 * Een Ander Zijn Geluk (2005)
 * Verlengd Weekend (2005)
 * Het Paard van Sinterklaas (2005)
 * Crusade in Jeans (2005)
 * Wolfsbergen (2007) – see Nanouk Leopold
 * Firmin (2007)
 * Man Zkt Vrouw (A Perfect Match) (2007)
 * Blind (2007)
 * Loft (2008)
 * The Barons (2009)
 * Sœur Sourire (2009)
 * Ob Ihr Wollt oder Nicht! (2009)
 * Marieke, Marieke (2010)
 * Smoorverliefd (2010)
 * De schaduw van Bonifatius (2010)
 * Nova Zembla (2011)
 * The Spring of César (2011)
 * De Sint Danst de Tango (2011)
 * Finn (2013)
 * Flying Home (2014)
 * The Surprise (2015)
 * Café Derby (2015)
 * Ich und Kaminski (2015)
 * Ay Ramon! (2015)
 * Wat Mannen Willen (2015)
 * Szvo (2015)
 * Blind Spot (2017)
 * This Magnificent Cake! (2018)
 * Niet Schieten (2018)
 * Sinterklaas en de Wakkere Nachten (2018)
 * Een Verkeerde Toekomst (2019)
 * The Claus Family (2020)
 * The Claus Family 2 (2021)
 * The Claus Family 3 (2022)

He is also known from Flemish and Dutch TV series such as:

 * Keromar (1971)
 * Sil de Strandjutter (1976)
 * Adriaen Brouwer (1986)
 * Klein Londen, Klein Berlijn (1988)
 * Moeder, Waarom Leven Wij? (1993)
 * Dag Sinterklaas (1993)
 * Ons Geluk (1995)
 * Gaston Berghmans Show (1995)
 * Kulderzipken (1996)
 * Diamant (1997)
 * Karakter (1997)
 * Retour Den Haag (1999)
 * De Grote Boze Wolf Show (2000)
 * Stille Waters (2001)
 * De 9 Dagen van de Gier (2001)
 * Meiden van De Wit (2002)
 * W817 (2003)
 * Sprookjes (2004-08)
 * Koning van de Wereld (2005)
 * Als 't Maar Beweegt (2005)
 * De Kavijaks (2005)
 * Stellenbosch (2007)
 * Sinteressante Dingen (2009)
 * Met Man en Macht (2013)
 * Nieuw Texas (2015)
 * Den Elfde van den Elfde (2016)
 * Tytgat Chocolat (2017)
 * De Bever & Co (2019)

Theatre

 * Het Goudland (1966-67)
 * De Meeuw (1968)
 * Koning Lear (1968-69)
 * Koning Jan (1969-70)
 * De Familie Tót (1969-70)
 * August, August, August (1970-71)
 * Een Blijde Gebeurtenis (1970-71)
 * Mijnheer Puntila en Zijn Knecht Matti (1971-72)
 * De Parochie van Miserie (1972)
 * Mistero Buffo (1972-73)
 * Ballade voor Grote en Kleine Poppen (1974-75)
 * Mezcal (1982-83)
 * Obscene Fabels (1984–85)
 * Het Offer is te Kort (1985-86)
 * Wolfsklem (1986-87)
 * DE TIJGER (1986-87)
 * Gilles! (1987-88)
 * De Meeuw (1988-89)
 * Mijn Zoetje Junior (1989-90)
 * Dodendans (1989-90)
 * Repetitie I (1991-92)
 * All for Love (1992-93)
 * Vrijen met Dieren (1994-95)
 * Meneer Paul (1995-96)
 * Edwaar The King (1997-98)
 * Richaar Deuzième (1997-98)
 * Risjaar Modderfokker den Derde (1997-98)
 * Margaretha di Napoli (1997-98)
 * En Verlos Ins van het Kwade (1999)
 * Lulu (2000-01)
 * Bloedarm (2002-03)
 * Onder het Melkwoud (2009-10)
 * Lucifer (2010-11)
 * Bloedarm (2002)
 * Onvoltooid Verleden (2012)
 * Risjaar Drei (2016-17)
 * MARX (2018)
 * Landru (2020-21)

title: Jan Decleir


text:
Hokus Pick

Hokus Pick (or Hokus Pick Manouver) was a Christian rock band that was together from 1989 to 1999. The four members of Hokus Pick met in Vancouver, British Columbia. Hokus Pick was well known for their quirky sense of humour, using sarcasm, satire, and general silliness to convey a deeper message.

Hokus Pick toured extensively in Canada and the United States. The band opened for Steve Taylor's Squinternational tour in 1994 and played in Costa Rica in May 1998. The group released their final album in 1999, opting to spend more time with their families after more than a decade of recording and touring together. They have remained active in music ministry and the industry.

The Encyclopedia of Contemporary Christian Music cites their song "I'm So Happy" as possibly the worst CCM song of all time. The song is a satire of simplistic lyrics often heard on Christian radio. Ironically, it received heavy rotation on Christian stations.

In October 2007 Hokus Pick received a Lifetime Achievement Award from the Canadian Gospel Music Association at the 29th Annual Covenant Awards in Calgary, Alberta. Hokus Pick then performed live and hosted the 30th Annual Covenant Awards on October 24, 2008.

Rumours abounded that Hokus Pick was planning a comeback into music, after having been spotted in a secluded warehouse jamming together. Filmmaking company Transposition Films, composed of legendary members itself, avoided questions regarding their involvement in filming a documentary about the process.

Members

 * Russ Smith – lead vocals, guitar
 * Matt Pierrot – guitar, vocals
 * Dave Strilchuk – bass guitar, vocals
 * Rick Colhoun – drums, vocals

Discography

 * Hokus Pick Manouver (independent) (1988)
 * Hey Man! (independent) (1989)
 * Pick It Up (1992, review )
 * The Independents (1993)
 * Brothers from Different Mothers (1994, review )
 * Brothers From Different Mothers (video) (1994)
 * Bookaboom (1995)
 * The B-Sides (1996)
 * Snappy (1997, reviews )
 * Greatest Picks (1998)
 * Super Duper (1999, reviews  )

Songs in other projects

 * "We Are the People" on Believe It, Various Artists (Revival, 1999)
 * GMA Canada presents 30th Anniversary Collection, "I'm So Happy" (CMC, 2008)

title: Hokus Pick


text:
User talk:Ubermonkey

Welcome!

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! --Flockmeal 21:01, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)
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Re: Merrimack, New Hampshire
Just curious, I thought it was clear that East Merrimack wasn't actually a place except for the census on that article. Somebody might have changed it from when I put that back on there, but it was awhile ago. It's good to meet another Merrimack Wikipedian, now there's me, you and Ed Poor to my knowledge. Karmafist 00:21, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 12:53, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Yabbit
Hello Ubermonkey,

I wanted to let you know that I just tagged Yabbit for deletion, because it seems to be vandalism or a hoax.

If you feel that the article shouldn't be deleted and want more time to work on it, you can contest this deletion, but please don't remove the speedy deletion tag from the top.

You can leave a note on my talk page if you have questions. ubiquity (talk) 17:36, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

title: User talk:Ubermonkey


text:
Talk:Ollie Hopnoodle's Haven of Bliss

Fair use rationale for Image:Ollie.jpg
Image:Ollie.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 07:11, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

WP:FILM Assessment
I recently re-assessed the article from Stub to C class. For the article to reach B-class, it currently needs to complete the criteria for citing (first criterion) and grammar/style (criterion four). Although the article is well-sourced already, look again to make sure if there are any other potential sources that can be added for the article as well as for further expanding it. Take a look at WikiProject Film/Resources for potential sites for additional sourcing. For the fourth criterion, give the article a quick read-over and make sure it flows smoothly. For the plot section, it shouldn't be self-referential, so remove instances of "the film" (for the beginning of the section consider "In the blue-collar...") The lead should also be expanded to touch on all of the sections within the article. Single sentences shouldn't stand alone, either expand on them or incorporate them into another paragraph. Film titles linked within the article should be italicized. As a television film in the 1990s, I'm sure it is difficult to find sourcing, so if nothing else is found beyond what is currently listed, and the above grammar/style issues are addressed, the article can be assessed as B. --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 (talk • contrib) 03:54, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I was going a bit improvement-blind. --Lexein (talk) 06:08, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Pullman, IN
In Ollie Hopnoodle's Haven of Bliss, the family's hometown is named "Pullman, Indiana" by the narrator, Jean Shepherd. Coincidentally, in Hammond, Indiana, Shepherds's childhood hometown, there exists the Pullman-Standard Historic District, founded by the Pullman rail car manufacturing company. The film's fictitious "Pullman, Indiana" may be based on the district, or the company. Seeking RS. --Lexein (talk) 06:08, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Lexein, Does he say "Pullman" or "Hohman"? The three Clark-Kaytis Ralphie films use Hohman, Indiana, as their setting, and I was curious if "Pullman" may have been a mishearing of "Hohman" (they kind of rhyme). I haven't seen the four Barzyk-Bartlett Ralphie films (but want to), but have been trying to glean any information about them to see how they differ (for example in the B-B films, Ralphie seems to have been born sometime after 1935, but in the C-K films Ralphie was born in 1931). If the Barzyk-Bartlett films have him living in Pullman, that would be another difference between each set of films. — al-Shimoni  (talk) 11:20, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Ollie Hopnoodle's Haven of Bliss


text:
Talk:Baker 13

from VfD:

"Over 100 students" with nothing else to do but smear shaving cream on windows and doors with their bodies. The information probably belongs in the Rice entry. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 21:02, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Merge.  --L33tminion | (talk) 21:22, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

 * Merge Wyss 22:57, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Merge --fvw *  23:38, 2004 Dec 17 (UTC)
 * Delete: Not worth merging -- Ricecruft. Geogre 02:38, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Merge—Trevor Caira 03:14, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Weak merge, although I can absolutely see a point in not associating this with the Rice article (and thus deleting it). Think about it: if you're considering sending your kid to Rice, and you come here to look up information, and this is what you see, what impression will you be left with? --PacknCanes 06:06, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I can see your point. But should we be sweeping embarrassing facts under the carpet? I think the question is whether this little ritual is significant enough to mention at all on Wikipedia.  If it is (which I doubt) it should at least be mentioned in the main Rice article, with a separate article on its own if it is significant enough. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 06:42, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * No, we shouldn't be in the business of doing away with embarrassing facts, and I realized after I commented that I probably opened up a whole new can of worms. What worries me about merging this is that it has absolutely no academic or social connection to the University; it's purely coincidental that it happens at Rice rather than, say, at U. of Houston.  Like I said above, I can go either way.  If the consensus says merge, which it looks like it will, then that's cool. --PacknCanes 19:21, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

end moved discussion

title: Talk:Baker 13


text:
My Summer Story

My Summer Story (originally released in theaters as It Runs in the Family) is a 1994 American comedy film directed by Bob Clark that serves as a sequel to his 1983 film A Christmas Story. Like the previous film, it is based on semi-autobiographical stories by Jean Shepherd, primarily from his book In God We Trust, All Others Pay Cash.

The opening makes direct reference to the events of A Christmas Story, and the ending narration strongly parallels it; production delays forced most of the characters to be recast. Charles Grodin stars as the Old Man (Mr. Parker), Mary Steenburgen plays Mrs. Parker, and Kieran Culkin is Ralphie. Shepherd provides the narration, just as he had done for A Christmas Story.

The film was followed by two sequels. The first, entitled A Christmas Story 2, was released straight to DVD in 2012. The second, entitled A Christmas Story Christmas, was released on HBO Max in 2022 and features most of the original cast from the original 1983 film returning.

Plot
The film takes place in the summer of 1941, after the events of A Christmas Story, which took place in December 1940. It has several plot lines, one each for 10-year-old Ralphie, his father, and his mother, followed by a recurring subplot involving him and his dad on a fishing trip, that proves frequently fruitless until a single night when all fish are caught. This also feeds a needless obsession in Ralphie's 7-year-old brother Randy, much to Mrs. Parker's nerve.

Ralphie's plot
Ralphie's plot for most of the film is to find a top tough enough to knock that of a bully's out of a chalk circle in a game of "Kill". Scut Farkus, the 13-year-old main bully, was demoted following the events of A Christmas Story, with a new head bully, Lug Ditka, taking his place and ruling over the school. Despite his firm standing, Ralphie's tops are always defeated by Lug's top Mariah, prompting Ralphie to look for outside sources that also backfire, such as a top bought from an Eastern shop that is painted with roses, giving Lug all the mocking material. During the Parker family's visit to the world fair, Ralphie gets a top from a gypsy stand called "Wolf" just as powerful as Mariah, allowing Ralphie to challenge him again. However, at the climax of the challenge, both Mariah and Wolf end up disappearing into the sewer, never to be seen again; as a result, the game ends on a lose-lose draw.

Mrs. Parker's plot
Mrs. Parker's plot revolves around attempting to start a collection of celebrity dishes, one per each dish night, at the Orpheum Theatre run by Leopold Doppler. She acquires the first dish, a Ronald Colman gravy boat, though she accumulates more as Doppler announces the other dishes are unavailable due to 'misshipment'. The frustration of accumulating the gravy boats combined with the events throughout the film get Mrs. Parker over the edge, resulting her in throwing the gravy boat she won at the theater in Doppler's head. All other housewives, encouraged by Mrs. Parker's act, also start raining down the surplus gravy boats towards Doppler, enraged at the frustration and the apparent fraudulent scheme. Mrs. Parker is arrested for the act, though with a relieved smile on her face.

Mr. Parker's plot
Mr. Parker's plot revolves around his odds with the Parker's hillbilly neighbors, the Bumpuses (or Bumpi, as the Parkers tend to refer them in plural), especially due to their loud overplaying of hillbilly music, obnoxious behavior and the constant harassment on Mr. Parker by the Bumpuses' forty-three Bloodhounds named Big Red. The escalation turns into war when the Bumpuses inaugurate an outhouse bathroom, which Parker clearly perceives as a health code violation. When Mr. Parker attempts forcing the Bumpuses to demolish the outhouse, they respond by having Big Dickie, the largest of the Bumpus family, destroy their house's porch as a show of force. Parker attempts unsuccessfully to torment the Bumpuses with music, which they mistake for Parker calling a night party, prompting him to hurriedly escape to the fishing trip with Ralphie. Mr. Parker does a second attempt, this time with a sound effects record disk simulating a federal bust, but by the time he unleashes the sound disk, the Bumpuses have long moved away. Mr. Parker interprets this as a defeat, and the act earns the ire of the woken-up neighborhood, who strongly suggest to bring the Bumpuses back and be rid of Parker.

Cast

 * Charles Grodin as Mr. Parker, the Old Man
 * Mary Steenburgen as Mrs. Parker
 * Kieran Culkin as Ralph "Ralphie" Parker
 * Jean Shepherd as Ralph Parker/the Narrator
 * Christian Culkin as Randy Parker
 * Whit Hertford as "Lug"
 * Chris Owen as "Scut" Farkus
 * Geoffrey Wigdor as Flick
 * David Zahorsky as Schwartz
 * Tedde Moore as Miss Shields
 * T.J. McInturff as Grover Dill
 * Glenn Shadix as Leopold Doppler, Manager of the Orpheum Theater
 * Roy Brocksmith as Mr. Winchell, The Assessor

Production
Shepherd had begun work on the film in 1989, after wrapping up production on the television film Ollie Hopnoodle's Haven of Bliss. He admitted making the sequel mainly as a money-making enterprise; when he saw the amount of royalties he was making off telecasts and re-releases of A Christmas Story compared to his television productions, he walked away from television and vowed to work almost exclusively on films. Because the cast of A Christmas Story had aged to the point where they no longer fit their roles, it was entirely recast, with the exception of Tedde Moore, who returns as Ralphie's teacher, Miss Shields.

Reception
The film received mixed reviews. Entertainment Weekly gave it a B+, noting that the film "improves on A Christmas Story, with better pacing and better-defined characters, but found Shepherd's narration to be "oh-so-drolly exaggerated — and therefore condescending". Robert Butler at The Kansas City Star called it "a sequel worth seeing" which revisits the humor of the original.

Upon the release of the film on DVD in 2006, DVDtalk wrote "if you squint just right, My Summer Story is actually reasonably good", while criticizing the casting, but praising Shepherd's narration as "easily the film's saving grace". Christopher Null at MovieCritic.com referred to the film as a "lackluster sequel" with "little of the same charm" as A Christmas Story, and "not funny, really". A 2011 summary of best and worst movies filmed in Cleveland called the film a "dog", which "features none of the original cast -- and none of the original heart".

Released in very few theaters, the film grossed under $71,000.

Related works
Prior to the making of the theatrical film, PBS co-produced a series of TV movies based on the Parker family for American Playhouse including Ollie Hopnoodle's Haven of Bliss, The Great American Fourth of July and Other Disasters, The Star-Crossed Romance of Josephine Cosnowski and The Phantom of the Open Hearth.

title: My Summer Story


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pirate's lodge

Pirate's lodge was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE

For a nefarious and infamous domestic terrorist organization, they sure don't get much attention. No google hits on their name, their hideout, or their members, and Lexis-Nexis has nothing, despite the claimed newspaper coverage. Delete. [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 21:03, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)
 * Well, that's the kind of terrorist you've got to worry about! Delete anyway. P Ingerson 21:46, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Speedy Delete, prank. Wyss 22:56, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete, the secret must nog get out. *cough* --fvw *  23:38, 2004 Dec 17 (UTC)
 * Delete: I wonder if they know the Denny's Buccaneers or the Waffle House Privateers? Not notable -- a place like others, with a liquor license. Geogre 02:37, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Hoax. [[User:Livajo|Ливай | ☺]] 09:15, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
Category:House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha

Saxe-Coburg and Gotha or Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha) was the name given to the two German duchies of Saxe-Coburg and Saxe-Gotha in the present states of Bavaria and Thuringia, which were in personal union between 1826 and 1918. The two duchies were both among the Saxon duchies held by the Ernestine branch of the House of Wettin. The House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha was formerly the reigning house of Bulgaria and Portugal (Braganzca) with branches currently reigning in Belgium and the United Kingdom (the latter is now called the House of Windsor).

title: Category:House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha


text:
Talk:Vauxhall station

Russian connection
Does anyone know the details of the Imperial Russian diplomat who was allegedly so imressed with the railway station that "Vauxhall" (or "Voxhol" or whatever) became the Russian word for railway station? Something like that anyway. P Ingerson 21:05, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * See the article on Vauxhall the nearby area of London - is there a need for a more direct link from this article? User:Lang rabbie 22:22, 29 Dec 2004
 * Thanks. But the Vauxhall article is too vague -- no details about the names of the diplomats, or anything like that.  Hoped I'd find more details in this one.  Oh well.  P Ingerson 07:30, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * EXactly. It is not only russian word, though. Russian - вокзал. Estonian - Vaksal. Ukrainian - вокзал. Mari - вокзал. Don't know more, might be similar terms in other languages that were part of the russian empire too.  This subject should be part of this article too. It had large international impact - and more is written about nearby subway stations than that. After all - there may be alternate theories, but in these regions most people who know  the connection know the railroad station mistake (in some versions it was not mistake, but intentional as the Vauxhall Station operated better than other stations) and the Vauxhall pleasure halls theory is dubious  as in that case the Pavlovsk station should have become вокзал. It is the station anyone would look first like I did. - Melilac (talk) 07:13, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I am pretty sure that it was the Tsar Nickolas himself, who stayed at Vauxhall, absorbing the culture. It is the same time they converted their foot to match the English foot. Wendy.krieger (talk) 11:49, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I've dropped a source into the article explaining this connection. In the days before turnstiles and ticket barriers, and before interconnecting corridors on all trains, the easiest way to check tickets was to stop at the last station before the main terminus, and get a guard to go and visit each coach to check them. So every train from the south west stopped at Vauxhall. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  16:05, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Alice guard.jpg Sometimes (as with Vauxhall) the tickets were collected (not just checked) at the last actual station; in other cases, a "ticket platform" would be used for the same purpose. This was something like a station, but with no public access to or from the street - people attempting to get off there would be deterred by the ticket collector. Of course, this could take some time - consider four carriages, each with eight compartments, and ten seats in each compartment - 320 tickets to check. No surprise that with increasing suburban traffic they went over to using barriers at the terminus. -- Red rose64 🌹 (talk) 21:13, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Simon Bradley's "Railways - Nation, Network and People" has a pretty good description of that. I'm beavering through the book at the mo. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  23:13, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
 * -- Red rose64 🌹 (talk) 19:47, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Were there no Oyster cards in Tsar Nicholas's day then? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amakuru (talk • contribs) 23:19, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, he touched out over 100 years before the Victoria line turned up... Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  23:23, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Vauxhall station. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110607020354/http://www.atoc.org/retail/_downloads/NFM98/NFM98_Common_A.pdf to http://www.atoc.org/retail/_downloads/NFM98/NFM98_Common_A.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at Sourcecheck).

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 08:16, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Also the source has been removed already. VKZY LUFan (talk) (Mind the Gap!) 02:09, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

Things I can't find sources for
There a couple of opinions about Vauxhall that I've heard from people, but I can't find any good sources beyond comments in TripAdvisor. Since Eurostar services moved from Waterloo to St Pancras, everyone who gets a train into Waterloo (and there's a lot of them) who wants the Eurostar has got to get on the tube network and change at least once to get to St Pancras. A possibly faster route is to get off one stop early at Vauxhall, get on the Victoria line, which as well as being one of the faster lines, drops you at St Pancras without having to change. The only problem with this is that if you've got lots of luggage, getting from the elevated national rail platforms to the tube platforms is a pain in the neck, with lots of steps and awkward corridors. If I can find good (or even reasonable) sources, I'll drop that lot into the article. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  16:12, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
 * This is definitely a good piece to write about. On the neck pain issue, I think the lifts will help anyway. The whole station is step-free now...unless there’s more steps on the streets which I’m not aware about. References definitely cant help :( VKZY LUFan (talk) (Mind the Gap!) 16:30, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Dubious
As discussed at Talk:Vauxhall station/GA1, the claim that Vauxhall bus station is the second busiest in London is cited to a 13 year old source, which is probably now out of date. A new source is required. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  11:00, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Must be more to say than this
I came to the article to find out why platforms 5 and 6 are always closed - and we actually have very little on the trains and the platforms they go from. There must have been more written about this station than this!

Where was the milk depot? What's there now? When did it close? This doesn't feel like a good article as it lacks so much information. Secretlondon (talk) 21:21, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

 * See the "Things I can't find sources for" section further up. What are your sources of information? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  07:25, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Needs splitting?
This is actually about 2 (or 3 stations). The railway station and the tube station are different stations. The code of Vauxhall railway station is VXH, the code for Vauxhall tube station is VUX. The article links to the wikidata entry for the tube station. Isn't it normal to split stations like this? Secretlondon (talk) 14:36, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think you're right. The Infobox says "managed by South western railway", which isn't true for the tube station. Looking at Paddington, it even has separate articles for the two bits of the tube station. — Amakuru (talk) 14:39, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * However, Blackfriars station, Cannon Street station, Charing Cross railway station, Finsbury Park station, Marylebone railway station, Moorgate station and London Waterloo station all include the mainline and tube entries. For the "man in the street", Vauxhall is simply an interchange between one TfL-run line to another; indeed I've used it to travel from northeast to south London on occasion as it's quicker and easier than going via one of the mainline terminals or other intermediate stops like Balham. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  07:24, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Vauxhall station


text:
Deutz

Deutz may refer to:

People

 * Emmanuel Deutz (1763–1842), German-born French rabbi
 * Rupert of Deutz, (c. 1075–c. 1129), Benedictine theologian and writer
 * Simon Deutz (1802–1852), German-born French courtier

Places

 * Deutz, Cologne, a former town, since 1888 a quarter of Cologne, Germany
 * Deutz Abbey, a Benedictine abbey in Cologne, Germany
 * Deutz–Gießen railway, a line between Deutz and Gießen
 * Deutz Station, after 2004 Köln Messe/Deutz station, a railway junction in Cologne, Germany.
 * Deutz Suspension Bridge, former bridge in Cologne destroyed in World War II.

Companies

 * Deutz AG, a diesel-engine manufacturer based in Cologne, Germany
 * Deutz-Allis, former subsidiary in North America.
 * Deutz-Fahr, a brand of tractors and other farm equipment established in 1968.
 * Deutz Power Systems, former subsidiary (1985–2007) today part of Caterpillar Energy Solutions.
 * Deutz (wine), a champagne bottler based in France, also known as Deutz Geldermann

title: Deutz


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Night of Decadence

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was - merged

Night of Decadence
More sophomoric nonsense from Rice students. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 21:09, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Merge, I think, although I would prefer keep to delete. --L33tminion | (talk) 21:21, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

 * Merge... and Sid Richardson college students probably have more fun. Wyss 15:22, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC) (fixed my sig)
 * Merge and delete. --fvw *  23:39, 2004 Dec 17 (UTC)
 * Delete: Not something vital for understanding Rice U., and the merge queue is 8 miles long. Merge & redirect if there is a volunteer only. Geogre 02:35, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * delete Mikkalai 02:19, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/USS Haynes (DE-181)

USS Haynes (DE-181) was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE

Fancruft that does not deserve it's own article or merit a redirect. All of the information contained within is already in the main The Enemy Below article. Also, the USS Haynes redirect should point to The Enemy Below as well.--Lucky13pjn 21:10, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete --fvw *  23:39, 2004 Dec 17 (UTC)
 * Delete, doesn't need redirect. --Spangineer ∞ 00:05, Dec 18, 2004 (UTC)
 * Redirect. [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 02:17, Dec 18, 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. ➥the Epopt [[TINC| of the Cabal ]] 03:26, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete The Enemy Below contains this information and a search on USS Haynes will find it. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 05:50, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Niteowlneils 06:09, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
Millwall Dock

Millwall Dock is a dock at Millwall, London, England, located south of Canary Wharf on the Isle of Dogs.

History
The scheme was developed speculatively by a partnership of John Kelk and John Aird & Co. The engineer responsible for designing the scheme was Sir John Fowler. The construction was undertaken by Kelk and Aird and the dock was officially opened in March 1868. After a slow start to the business and financial difficulties, Kelk and Aird surrendered control of the company to lawyers acting for the investors in December 1868. In recognition of its settled status the business was renamed the Millwall Dock Company in 1870.

From 1897 to 1921, it was served by the Millwall Docks railway station on the Millwall Extension Railway, with goods services continuing to the 1970s.

In 1909 the Port of London Authority (PLA) took over the Millwall Dock, along with the other enclosed docks from St Katharines to Tilbury.

From 1905 Magnus Mowat worked as Engineer to the docks, being promoted to Director around 1912.

With reorganisation by the Port of London Authority in the 1920s, the northern end of the Inner Dock was connected to the West India Docks by the Millwall Passage.

The dock was used mainly for timber and grain, a trade which eventually moved down river to the Port of Tilbury with the construction of a major grain terminal in the 1960s. A McDougall's flour mill, the Wheatsheaf Mill (constructed in 1869), stood on the south side of the Outer Dock, but was demolished in about 1980. Nearby Sir John McDougall Gardens is named after one of the McDougall brothers, John McDougall, who was also a prominent local politician in Poplar.

From the 1960s onwards, the Millwall Dock experienced a steady decline – as did all of London's other docks – as the shipping industry adopted containerisation, which effectively moved traffic downstream to Tilbury. It finally closed to commercial traffic along with the other Royal Docks in 1981.

The West Ferry Printing Works, the largest newspaper print works in Western Europe, was built on the north side of Outer Dock between 1984 and 1986.

The Docklands Sailing and Watersports Centre, located at the far West end of the dock where the dock previously connected to the Thames, was established by the London Docklands Development Corporation and the Sports Council at a cost of £1.2 million in 1989.

While much of the area has been occupied by commercial office towers, Millwall Dock is also an area where several housing developments and apartment towers have been developed. During the 1980s the Clippers Quay housing estate was built around the old dry dock while the Mill Quay housing development was built on the site of the old Wheatsheaf Mill.

The dock was a location for boat stunts in the 1999 James Bond film The World Is Not Enough.

Layout
The dock is L-shaped, with an 'Outer Dock' running east–west, and an 'Inner Dock' running north from the eastern end. It originally contained around 36 acres (14 hectares) of water and had a 200-acre (81 hectare) estate. The western end of the Outer Dock was originally connected to the Thames at Millwall by an 80 ft wide channel. The spoil from the docks formed the area of wasteland known as the Mudchute. A graving dock for ship repairs was constructed at the south-east corner of the Outer Dock (one of 6 originally planned), and later lengthened to 555 ft.

Other sources

 * 'Dockland: An illustrated historical survey of life and work in east London', NELP/GLC, 1983, ISBN 0-7168-1611-3
 * 'Dockland: An illustrated historical survey of life and work in east London', NELP/GLC, 1983, ISBN 0-7168-1611-3

title: Millwall Dock