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Luke Lea (American politician, born 1879)

Luke Lea (April 12, 1879 – November 18, 1945) was an American attorney, politician and newspaper publisher. A Democrat, he was most notable for his service as a United States Senator from Tennessee from 1911 to 1917. Lea was the longtime publisher of The Tennessean newspaper in Nashville, and a United States Army veteran of World War I. In 1919 he led an unauthorized and unsuccessful attempt to kidnap the recently exiled German Kaiser Wilhelm II.

Early life
Lea was the son of John Overton and Ella ( Cocke) Lea. He was born into a political family after Reconstruction and named for a paternal great-grandfather, Luke Lea, who was a two-term Congressman from Tennessee in the 1830s. Initially an ardent supporter of Democrat Andrew Jackson, the elder Lea later became a member of the Whig Party. One of Lea's maternal great-grandfathers was William Cocke, who served in the U.S. Senate from Tennessee from 1796 to 1797, and again from 1799 to 1805.

Lea received his early education from tutors at home. He attended University of the South in Sewanee, Tennessee, graduating with a bachelor's degree in 1899. He received a master's degree in 1900. Lea was the manager of the "Iron Men" of the 1899 Sewanee Tigers football team, and was credited with organizing their schedule of games. The Tigers won five road games in six days, and outscored opponents 322 to 10. A documentary film about that team and Luke Lea's role was released in 2022 called Unrivaled: Sewanee 1899.

He attended Columbia Law School in New York City, from which he graduated in 1903. Lea was admitted to the bar the same year, and began to practice in Nashville.

Early career
In addition to practicing law, Lea formed a company to purchase the Nashville American newspaper. Reorganized as the Nashville Tennessean, Lea served as its first editor and publisher. He later merged the Tennessean with the Nashville Democrat, and his newspaper was a leading proponent of Prohibition.

One of Lea's associates at the American and later the Tennessean was Edward W. Carmack. Lea became involved in Democratic Party politics as a member of the faction led by Carmack. In 1908, Carmack was shot and killed by Duncan Brown Cooper, a former editor of the American, and Cooper's son Robin. Carmack wounded Robin Cooper with return fire. The Coopers were part of the Democratic Party faction led by Malcolm R. Patterson, who was elected governor in 1906, and whom Carmack had challenged unsuccessfully for the Democratic nomination in 1908. Duncan and Robin Cooper were both convicted of second-degree murder and sentenced to prison. Duncan Cooper's conviction was affirmed on appeal, after which he received a pardon from Patterson. Robin Cooper won an appeal and the right to a retrial, but no prosecutor was willing to re-try the case, so he went free. Lea assumed leadership of the Carmack faction, which succeeded in persuading Patterson to withdraw from the 1910 campaign.

United States Senator
Lea was elected to the Senate by the Tennessee General Assembly in 1911; after 10 unsuccessful ballots, his name was introduced as a compromise choice, and he was selected on the 11th ballot. He was an enthusiastic supporter of most of the progressive policies of Democratic President Woodrow Wilson, a fellow native of the South. Elected president in 1912, Wilson was only the second Democrat to gain the office since the end of the Civil War. During the 63rd Congress, Lea was chairman of the Senate Committee on the Library (of Congress).

Socially progressive but fiscally conservative, Lea actively supported lowering tariffs, the creation of the Federal Reserve System, the regulation of major corporations, and the breaking up of trusts. He also supported women's suffrage and a national prohibition amendment. He allied with Robert La Follette and supported his seaman's act. He approved of the eight-hour day and opposed child labor.

In 1913, Lea began his most ambitious undertaking in the Senate when he attempted to launch a federal investigation of the railroads and political corruption in Tennessee. The investigation encouraged the railroads to cease distributing free passes as political favors, but the growing crisis of the First World War eventually overshadowed concerns about corruption, and the investigation was shelved.

During Lea's term, the Seventeenth Amendment changed the method of election of Senators from election by the state legislatures to direct popular vote. Lea supported this measure. Lea contended for the 1916 Democratic nomination for the seat but was defeated by Kenneth McKellar, a colleague of Memphis political "boss" E. H. Crump. McKellar was re-elected to a total of six terms, and is to date Tennessee's longest-serving senator. Despite his lame duck status, Lea continued to work on the progressive agenda. He voted to confirm Louis Brandeis to the Supreme Court, and supported a number of progressive measures in the Senate including immigration reform, the Shipping Act of 1916, and the Revenue Act of 1916.

World War I
Shortly after the end of Lea's Senate term, the U.S. entered World War I. Lea had been opposed to U.S. involvement, but once war was declared, he joined the United States Army and raised a volunteer Field Artillery regiment. Lea's regiment was mustered into federal service as the 114th Field Artillery Regiment, a unit of the 39th Division, which Lea commanded as a colonel. The regiment distinguished itself in France, including the Battle of Saint-Mihiel and the Meuse-Argonne Offensive. Lea was awarded the Army Distinguished Service Medal for his wartime efforts.

Attempt to kidnap Kaiser Wilhelm II
In January 1919, Lea and a group of three officers and three sergeants from his unit, the 114th Field Artillery, traveled to Kasteel Amerongen in the Netherlands in a failed attempt to seize the recently exiled German Kaiser Wilhelm II and bring him to the Paris Peace Conference for potential trial for war crimes. One of the officers accompanying Lea was Larry MacPhail.

This attempt was apparently inspired by a chance meeting with the Duke of Connaught in 1918 who had told Lea that he was the uncle of both King George V and the Kaiser and suggested that the European establishment would protect the Kaiser.

The Americans entered the Netherlands using false civilian passports travelling in two staff cars with weapons concealed under the seats. On arriving at the Chateau where the Kaiser was staying, Lea claimed to be the son of the local count. They immediately raised suspicions and the Kaiser unsurprisingly refused to see them. They retreated to their cars, after stealing an inscribed bronze ashtray, and fled the country.

After an investigation of the incident, the Army reprimanded Lea, MacPhail and the others as it was illegal for them to have entered a neutral country.

Later career
After the close of the war, Lea returned to Nashville and resumed operation of his newspaper. In 1919 he was one of the founders of the American Legion and served prominently in various leadership roles. In 1929 Governor Henry H. Horton nominated Lea for appointment to the Senate seat vacated by the death of Lawrence D. Tyson. Lea declined, choosing instead to remain active in the banking and real estate businesses. Horton nominated William Emerson Brock, who accepted.

In the 1920s, Lea was a major investor in the Nashville investment banking firm of Caldwell & Company, due in part to his friendship with its founder Rogers Caldwell. When accusations of corruption were subsequently made about the bank, Lea and his associates became the subject of rumor that they too were corrupt.

Conviction and imprisonment
Lea was indicted in North Carolina with others, including his eldest son, for bank fraud resulting from the 1930 collapse of the Central Bank and Trust Company of Asheville, North Carolina, a bank with which he had become affiliated through his connection with Caldwell & Company. Both Lea and his son were tried in North Carolina in 1931. L. E. Gwinn, a prominent Memphis attorney whose specialty was criminal law, was brought in along with other attorneys, and the detailed preparation of the North Carolina case was entrusted to him. The Leas were convicted on three of seven counts. Luke was sentenced to six to 10 years in prison.

After the Leas’ appeals were exhausted and after the U.S. Supreme Court denied their petition for a writ of certiorari, both Leas reported for imprisonment at Raleigh in May 1934. Lea received a parole in April 1936, and he received a full pardon in June 1937. Through the end of his life, Lea maintained that he and his son were wrongly prosecuted and convicted and that the prosecution was political in nature, with Lea being made the scapegoat for the Central Bank and Trust’s failure by his Republican foes in North Carolina and Tennessee.

Death and burial
Lea died on November 18, 1945, at the Vanderbilt University Hospital in Nashville, at the age of 66. He was buried at Mount Olivet Cemetery in Nashville.

Family
Lea married Mary Louise Warner in 1906. They were the parents of Luke Lea Jr. and Percy Warner Lea. Mary Lea died while Luke Lea was en route to France during World War I. Lea married Percy Warner in 1920; she was the sister of his first wife. Luke and Percy Lea were the parents of Mary Louise, Laura, and Overton.

Legacy
They resided at 3700 Whitland Avenue in Nashville, Tennessee. The house, known as Washington Hall, is listed on the National Register of Historic Places as a contributing property to the Whitland Area Neighborhood.

Lea Heights in Nashville's Percy Warner Park, a place offering an excellent view of the downtown Nashville skyline, is named in his honor. The original land grant establishing Percy Warner Park was donated by Lea and his family to Nashville. The park is named for Lea's father-in-law.

Representation in other media
The book At Heaven's Gate by Southern writer Robert Penn Warren is said to be a roman à clef about the 1920s era and Caldwell & Company in the Nashville area, as are aspects of the novel A Summons to Memphis by the novelist Peter Matthew Hillsman Taylor.

Resources

 * Mary Louise Lea Tidwell, Luke Lea of Tennessee, Bowling Green State University Popular Press, 1993, ISBN 0-87972-624-5.


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User:Guthrie

Guthrie is 28 years old. He currently lives in New Brunswick. All previous contributions by 198.164.135.108, 198.164.135.21, 198.164.135.94 and 198.164.135.126 were in fact, by him.

Projects
General cleanup.

Contributions
Image:AV_Nackawic-02-17-07.jpg

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User:Guthrie


text: User talk:217.68.114.116

title: User talk:217.68.114.116


text:
User talk:Kathe.from.uran

Hi! welcome to Wikipedia!

Hope you enjoy contributing to Wikipedia. Be bold in editing pages. Here are some links that you might find useful:

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 * For help, see Where to ask a question.
 * Some other pages that will help you know more about Wikipedia: Manual of Style and Five pillars, Neutral point of view, Civility, What Wikipedia is not
 * You can contribute in many ways: write a great article, fight vandalism, upload pictures, perform maintainance tasks, contribute to existing projects...

I hope you stick around and keep contributing to Wikipedia. Drop us a note at New user log.

-- utcursch | talk

title: User talk:Kathe.from.uran


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Gmina Turośń Kościelna

Gmina Turośń Kościelna is a rural gmina (administrative district) in Białystok County, Podlaskie Voivodeship, in north-eastern Poland. Its seat is the village of Turośń Kościelna, which lies approximately 13 km south-west of the regional capital Białystok.

The gmina covers an area of 140.3 km2, and as of 2006 its total population is 5,348.

Villages
Gmina Turośń Kościelna contains the villages and settlements of Baciuty, Baciuty-Kolonia, Barszczówka, Bojary, Borowskie Cibory, Borowskie Gziki, Borowskie Michały, Borowskie Olki, Borowskie Skórki, Borowskie Wypychy, Borowskie Żaki, Chodory, Czaczki Małe, Czaczki Wielkie, Dobrowoda, Dołki, Iwanówka, Juraszki, Lubejki, Markowszczyzna, Niecki, Niewodnica Korycka, Niewodnica Kościelna, Pomigacze, Stoczki, Tołcze, Topilec, Topilec-Kolonia, Trypucie, Turośń Dolna, Turośń Kościelna, Zalesiany and Zawady.

Neighbouring gminas
Gmina Turośń Kościelna is bordered by the gminas of Choroszcz, Juchnowiec Kościelny, Łapy and Suraż.

title: Gmina Turośń Kościelna


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Abu Anas al-Shami

Abu Anas al-Shami (أبو أنس الشامي; died 16 September 2004) was a senior leader in the Jama'at al-Tawhid wal Jihad militant group during the Iraq War. He was a Palestinian from Tulkarm city in the West Bank, born in Kuwait in 1969.

According to the late ISIS cleric Turki al-Binali, he mentored Abu Muhammad al-Adnani, the late spokesperson of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant.

History
Abu Anas Al Shami was a Palestinian cleric, teacher, writer, and jihadist born in Kuwait. It has been said that "from the age of 14, Abu Anas had mastered the complexities of the Arabic language, and a year later memorized the entire Quran." Originally from the Palestinian West Bank town of Yabroud, Abu Anas obtained an Islamic studies degree at the Islamic University of Madinah in Saudi Arabia.

In the mid-1990s he went to Bosnia-Herzegovina to teach Islam in towns and refugee camps. He then returned to Jordan and became a preacher in the neighborhood of Sweileh. In the late 1990s, the Jordanian officials shut down an Islamic center that al-Shami had established in Amman on the grounds that it was promoting an extreme interpretation of Islam.

Iraq
In 2003, al-Shami joined al-Tawheed wal-Jihad leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in north-eastern Iraq. He was appointed to the advisory council of the group and soon became Zarqawi's second in command. He was both spiritual advisor to the group and directed many of its attacks and battles against American and Iraqi forces. In a letter he wrote that his 300 mujaheddin had fought-off over 2,000 U.S. Marines in the First Battle of Fallujah.

In one tape in August 2004, a speaker identified as Abu Anas al-Shami (second man of Zarqawi and leader of Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad made up mostly by foreigners) said the militants planned to kill Iraqi prime minister Ayad Allawi, soldiers and police officers.

Death
Abu Anas al-Shami was killed by an American missile strike against his car on 16 September 2004 near Abu Ghraib, when he had been sent by Zarqawi to the Sadr City area of Baghdad. A eulogy to him was written by Zarqawi's first spiritual mentor, Abu Muhammad al-Maqdisi, and appeared on the Tawhed website which is run by Maqdisi's organisation on behalf of al-Qaeda.

title: Abu Anas al-Shami


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Olympic Park

An Olympic Park is a sports campus for hosting the Olympic Games. Typically it contains the Olympic Stadium and the International Broadcast Centre. It may also contain the Olympic Village or some of the other sports venues, such as the aquatics complex in the case of the summer games, or the main ice hockey rink for the winter games. The Olympic Park is often part of the "legacy" which provides benefit to the host city after the games have ended. As such it may subsequently include an urban park and a museum or similar commemoration of the games that were hosted there. The 1908 Olympic organising committee specified "As far as possible all the competitions, including swimming, archery, fencing, wrestling, etc., will be held on the same site in which the amphitheatre for the track-athletics and cycling will be erected." Not every games has a centralised complex of this type. The 1992 and 2010 Winter Games had widely dispersed venues; "Whistler Olympic Park" was the venue for the nordic skiing events in 2010. Venues of the 2016 Summer Olympics in Rio de Janeiro were split among four "clusters" rather than concentrated in a single Park.

title: Olympic Park


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CIÉ 301 Class

The Córas Iompair Éireann 301 Class locomotives were the first diesel locomotives used on the CIÉ network, this class of 5 being built between 1947 and 1948 by the company for shunting use, particularly in the railway yards on Dublin's North Wall. They were a six coupled (0-6-0 wheel arrangement) locomotive, fitted with a Mirrlees TLDT6 engine of 487 hp with diesel-electric transmission via two Brush traction motors. Unusually, they lacked train vacuum brakes, although air brakes were provided for the locomotive itself.

They were initially numbered 1000-1004 in the steam locomotive number series, but were subsequently renumbered D301-D305 in order. The locomotives were used on yard pilot and transfer freight duties, although number 1000 hauled a freight train from Dublin to Cork during trials. Two locomotives were stored from 1960 and the rest had followed by 1972, though officially they remained in stock until 1976. All five were scrapped in 1977.

Model
The D Class is not available in either RTR or kit form. However, the British Rail Class 08 can be used as a close approximation.

title: CIÉ 301 Class


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Gmina Tykocin

Gmina Tykocin is an urban-rural gmina (administrative district) in Białystok County, Podlaskie Voivodeship, in north-eastern Poland. Its seat is the town of Tykocin, which lies approximately 29 km west of the regional capital Białystok.

The gmina covers an area of 207.34 km2, and as of 2006 its total population is 6,477 (out of which the population of Tykocin amounts to 1,893, and the population of the rural part of the gmina is 4,584).

Villages
Apart from the town of Tykocin, Gmina Tykocin contains the villages and settlements of Bagienki, Broniszewo, Dobki, Hermany, Janin, Kapice-Lipniki, Kiermusy, Kiślaki, Krosno, Łaziuki, Łazy Duże, Łazy Małe, Leśniki, Lipniki, Łopuchowo, Nieciece, Nowe Jeżewo, Pajewo, Piaski, Popowlany, Radule, Rzędziany, Sanniki, Sawino, Siekierki, Sierki, Słomianka, Stare Jeżewo, Stare Kapice, Stelmachowo, Stelmachowo-Kolonia, Szafranki, Tatary and Żuki.

Neighbouring gminas
Gmina Tykocin is bordered by the gminas of Choroszcz, Dobrzyniewo Duże, Kobylin-Borzymy, Krypno, Trzcianne and Zawady.

title: Gmina Tykocin


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User talk:Cool girl needs info

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!
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If you cannot find the articles you want, the chances are it's because you are spelling the names wrongly. There are articles on Oliver Cromwell and Prince Rupert in existence. Deb 12:56, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:Cool girl needs info


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Talk:Fremantle Football Club

Premierships
Should it be mentioned that they are the only team never to win a premiership or appear in the Grand Final? More interestingly that they are the only non-victorian team not to win a premiership in the past 10 years?Squall1991 09:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you mean "it should be mentioned" or "should it be mentioned?", as the only club without a premiership is mentioned in the 2nd last paragraph of the history section. The second part of your question is not that interesting to me.  They are one of 9 teams to have not won a premiership in the past 10 years (Carl, Coll, Gee, Hawks, Melb, Rich, Saints, Dogs).  Location of them doesn't mean much. The article should be more about what they have done, not what they haven't.  And Gee, Hawks, Rich and Dogs haven't been in a grand final either, since we've been in the competition, which is all Freo should be measured against. The-Pope 02:21, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Jumpers: names of sponsors/manufacturers
I have removed these again. I do not feel that they are significant, unusual, newsworthy or important to an article about a football club.

More importantly, they are against WP:NOT: "Wikipedia is not a soapbox or a vehicle for ... advertising."

They is also against Spam:"Wikipedia is not a space for personal promotion or the promotion of products". If this is reverted again, I will put a tag on the article.

See also: Replies_to_common_objections.

There is a lot of opposition to this sort of thing on Wikipedia, just as there would be if it cropped up on the ABC, for example. And I have to wonder what Wikipedia would be like if we listed every single sponsorship deal, in the history of every single sports club or other article subject that has ever been sponsored by a business.

I have done the same for other articles. I will continue to do the same for other articles that have the same issue, when I become aware of them.

Good win today, although I could have done without getting soaked to the skin. Go Freo! Grant | Talk 12:02, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I won't make any changes until we get some more consensus or comparisons with other teams (both AFL and international). But my view, again, is that it is a valid encylopedic part of the history of the football club.  It is in no way a "soapbox", nor "personal promition of products", it is a factual listing of the significant on-field sponsors that the club has had.  It assists in dating photographs, it will, especially over time, provide a snapshot of some significant, and not so significant, companies that were the public face of the club, and like I've said before, as the club is only ever interested in their current sponsors, it will never be covered in any official documentation.
 * I have read each of the wiki guidelines that you quoted and I see NOTHING there that is against this sort of thing. It is all about preventing promotion of products as the prime reason - the prime reason here is a historical account of the major visable sponsors.
 * I understand that 2 wrongs don't make a right, but the AFL page has a listing of the naming rights sponsors, a search of Shirt sponsors finds a section on the Premier League sponsor changes, a whole section on current Man U sponsors (not just shirts - which I feel is closer to the advertising for advertising's sake - as opposed to a valid historical list) and for many other premier league teams ie Arsenal,Bolton or Newcastle. Sports in the US don't generally have shirt sponsors, so no precedents there.
 * If you were to be picky, you could claim it was unsourced, and at the moment I'd probably struggle to find much other than maybe a press release or photos to back it up, but I guess you'd need to accept that it was encylopedic first before you'd try to reference it. Other opinions?  The-Pope 03:32, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

"Superior"
The use of "superior" in this context means that a team is inherently or by rights superior - i.e. has some natural or inherent advantage over another, rather than simply a better playing record/history/current composition. This requires a judgement to be made which is not WP:NPOV. The solution: let the facts tell the story and people come to their own (hopefully correct) conclusions. Orderinchaos 10:02, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Fremantle-2007-Away.gif
Image:Fremantle-2007-Away.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 05:45, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Freo 2007-Clash.gif
Image:Freo 2007-Clash.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 05:53, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Freo 2007.gif
Image:Freo 2007.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 05:54, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:2006 AFL Fremantle.jpg
Image:2006 AFL Fremantle.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 04:25, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Lack of a premiership
Should the line 'Fremantle Dockers are currently the only team in the AFL not to win a major flag since commencing in the league' be included in the Lead section?. Jevansen (talk) 06:45, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I believe it should.... No offence to the Dockers they are the only team not to win a premiership. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RangerEcho (talk • contribs) 08:59, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Very true. But they are only in their 15th season. When Gold Coast enter the comp in a couple of years will we have a sentence saying they're the only club never to make it to September? Geelong, North Melbourne, Hawthorn, St Kilda and Footscray all took over 20 years to win their first flag. If Fremantle are still without a premiership in 10-15 years then I'd look more seriously about having it in the lead. That's the issue here, the fact is already in the article and has been for some time, it's just very debatable whether it is notable enough to be at the top of the article. You don't help your case by emphasising the sentence with boldface and capital letters. Please read WP:NPOV. Cheers. Jevansen (talk) 09:44, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Of course that line shouldn't be included - not with that awfully awkward wording. I assume that you mean that they've won a minor flag?  Looking at the other clubs, Sydney, Geelong and St Kilda mention their long droughts, Richmond and Bulldogs mention their lack of success.  But Melbourne doesn't mention that they have the current longest drought & North Melbourne has no mention of their inception to the 70s drought?  The current line in the Freo aricle of "Despite enduring some tough times..." is a bit weasily and could easily be improved, but your suggestion isn't anywhere near the best option.  The-Pope (talk) 13:48, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

We are not talking about the other clubs, we are talking about Fremantle Dockers... —Preceding unsigned comment added by RangerEcho (talk • contribs) 04:57, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

" ...one of the most well supported clubs ...". Shouldn't there also be a note that is has fans who can't compose a sentance? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.228.178.108 (talk) 03:28, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

"Shouldn't there also be a note that is has fans who can't compose a sentance". You were saying? Jevansen (talk) 10:57, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

The perennial "no premierships" issue
The perennial "no premierships" issue has returned. Putting it in the opening paragraph is WP:UNDUE weight. In the period in which Freo has existed, the Dogs and Tigers also haven't played in a GF either. Gold Coast also obviously haven't. So I now don't think it belongs there at all - because to accurately state the qualifications/exclusions/comparisons will take up an entire paragraph or a bunch of explanatory footnotes, which to me indicates that it doesn't belong in the introduction, which should only cover the key points. Opinions?The-Pope (talk) 04:10, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

I have re - jigged the opening paragraph 119.11.14.161 (talk) 04:25, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

I've just corrected my spelling mistake. It is worth mentioning it on the opening paragraph. I'm now going to take a rest from this page due to my editing over the past couple of hours. 119.11.14.161 (talk) 04:30, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm assuming that you are back under a slightly different IP. Any chance of registering so that we can have a proper discussion?  "Fremantle are one of three clubs yet to win a 'premiership' since inception since 1995." is simply an incorrect statement.  Since 1995 Melbourne, Bulldogs, Richmond, St Kilda, Fremantle, Gold Coast, and GWS (and you could chuck in Brisbane Bears and Fitzroy too) haven't won a flag.  If you try to explain all of the details, periods in the league etc it becomes overly complicated so simply saying we haven't won a flag in the results or history section is adequate. The-Pope (talk) 12:58, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I would simply state "Fremantle has not won a premiership, nor played in a Grand Final, during its time in the AFL". No references to other clubs at all. That is concise, to the point, a valid summary of the history of the club, and does not get bogged down in the issues of undue weight and clarifications when comparing against other clubs. (At the risk of being accused of taking the debate to an unnecessary tangent, I'd argue that the fact that Freo has no premierships is a much more important piece of information for the lead than the fact that Clive Waterhouse played for them.) Aspirex (talk) 06:45, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Whilst including Clive may be a reason why we haven't won a flag yet, ignoring our first major forward, 3rd leading goalkicker (was leading for most of the first decade) would be a bit of recentism. I've given in and added the comment on finals in the opening section.The-Pope (talk) 15:04, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Article Name
Shouldn't this now be Fremantle Dockers Football Club? I believe the 'Dockers' part of the name is official since the rebranding last year. --121.215.0.110 (talk) 09:44, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * No, the tradong/marketing name may have changed to Fremantle Dockers (not FD Football Club) but the WP:commonname is still Fremantle Football Club.The-Pope (talk) 10:42, 23 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm happy to keep it as Fremantle Football Club, never really liked the Dockers name anyhow. Must get myself a tra-dong name, sounds like it would come in handy. --121.215.0.110 (talk) 15:34, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Never played in a draw
I'd like to remove the paragraph discussing the fact that Fremantle has never played in a draw. It's not notable. From a high-level perspective, a draw is no more special than any victory or defeat by a specific margin. Alternatively, since it's more of a statistical curiosity than a reflection of the club's ability, perhaps mention of it could go in §2.6 'Records' and cricket is bad.Aspirex (talk) 06:50, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081204193152/http://sportal.com.au/afl-news-display/dockers-set-membership-record-51592 to http://sportal.com.au/afl-news-display/dockers-set-membership-record-51592
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20121114082918/http://www.fremantlefc.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/7009/newsid/81146/default.aspx to http://www.fremantlefc.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/7009/newsid/81146/default.aspx

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Stadiums
Should Fremantle Oval not be reflected under stadiums, since the AFLW team plays the majority of their home matches there? SportingFlyer (talk) 23:36, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

Edit-warring
106.68.70.4, please stop edit-warring to include your preferred content when you've been reverted by three other editors. Mentioning Fremantle's premiership record in the third sentence gives it undue weight and makes the article imply Fremantle is a poor team – as the entirety of your contributions to date are aimed at accomplishing. The second disputed sentence is even poorer – who are the "some" mentioned? Unless sources are provided to support the assertion, it seems very much like "some" is being employed as a weasel word to lend the assertion undue authority.

Much as I would like Wikipedia to promote the correct WA team, it is not appropriate for a neutral encyclopedia to disparage subjects without substantial sourcing. – Teratix ₵ 09:10, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Season Pages
Who wants to help Me make some season pages for 2013 - 2023. Flipstatic Energy (talk) 04:15, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 12 March 2024

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. No showing has been made that the current title is impermissible; even with weak rationales in opposition, it is still necessary to show consensus to move an article from a longstanding permissible title to another. Such consensus is clearly lacking here. BD2412 T 21:04, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Fremantle Football Club → Fremantle Dockers – Discussing titles for the new Tasmanian team has me thinking about how our AFL clubs' articles are named – in my view, they're not up to scratch with modern titling policy. For context, of the 18 AFL clubs, Gold Coast Suns, Greater Western Sydney Giants, Sydney Swans, West Coast Eagles and Western Bulldogs currently use the "[location] [mascot]" combo, with the other 13 currently at "[location] Football Club". In my view, we should be using the "[location] [mascot]" combination more often, if not in all cases, because it is more concise, recognisable and is used more often by our sources. Past justifications for using "[location] Football Club" have tended to rest on the idea that articles should use whatever the club's official name is, which is not necessarily true.

Aside from this general rationale, some points specific to Fremantle:
 * Clubs that have acquired their current name after the 1980s – Sydney (relocated 1982), West Coast (entered 1987), Western Bulldogs (rebranded 1996), Gold Coast (entered 2011) and GWS (entered 2012) – all use "[location] [mascot]". The exception is Adelaide (entered 1991, title is "Adelaide Football Club") but their article also probably needs to be moved. Because Fremantle entered in 1995, using "[location] [mascot]" is especially consistent with the more recent clubs tending to use this format.
 * Many third-party sources use "Fremantle Dockers": PerthNow, Fox, The West, ZeroHanger, Nine, Seven, The Roar Sydney Morning Herald, ABC. I'm not exactly going to say "Fremantle Dockers" is the WP:COMMONNAME, because the actual COMMONNAME is probably just "Fremantle" or "the Dockers", but those names aren't suitable options.
 * Fremantle consistently use "Dockers" over "Football Club" in their own branding. It's on their logo, their social media accounts, their official app and so on.
 * "Dockers" is consistent across time. During their time in the AFL, Fremantle have never been known by a name other than the Dockers.
 * "Dockers" is consistent across teams. There's no reserves or AFLW team using a different name.

And some other notes:
 * This move request is intended as a warm-up to gauge community sentiment and avoid changing too much at once, not to suggest Fremantle is the only club that needs their article moved.
 * If this move request succeeds, associated articles with "Fremantle Football Club" in their title (e.g. List of Fremantle Football Club players) should be moved to the equivalent title with "Fremantle Dockers". – Teratix ₵ 08:41, 12 March 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. — Amakuru (talk) 14:24, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

 * I would not agree with your general rationale; there is not a single un-renamed traditional club better known by [location] [mascot] than [location] Football Club, and the project's style guide actively discourages use of the former in those cases for that reason. In my view, there are only two clubs where such a move is worth discussing, and those are Fremantle and Adelaide. Right now, I'm about 50/50 on the subject of Fremantle, I'll need a few days to consider further before forming a view. Aspirex (talk) 10:42, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * With no disrespect to past and long-time contributors to the project, whose work is very much appreciated – the style guide hasn't been touched for over seven years. It's worth a proper investigation to see if its principles still hold. I agree for older clubs the mascot/nickname is often less salient compared to the newer clubs, but let's cross that bridge if/when we come to it. – Teratix ₵ 11:35, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose Reviewing the titling policy, I'm comfortable that both Fremantle Dockers (FD) and Fremantle Football Club (FFC) would be valid choices, but upon review I find FFC to be marginally better. My view of the five goals:
 * Recognisability: You have valid self-styling examples of the use of FD for the club, while there are also many examples when it uses FFC (, which particularly arise when described as a club rather than as a team (which is the primary topic of the article). This is a point of difference when compared with GWS  which is always referred to with its mascot. It's certainly not universal for FFC to be used in corporate context , so overall I think FD is marginally better for recognisability but both meet the criterion.
 * Naturalness: FD is definitely one of the location-mascot combinations which meets the naturalness criterion (in a way that, say, St Kilda Saints and the other seldom-spoken-together combos do not). So both options meet naturalness, probably about evenly.
 * Precision: FFC is slightly better since it makes clear that it's article about the club and not about one team within the club. But it's a fine distinction, again I think both meet this.
 * Concision: FD is shorter but both are equally concise in that neither FD nor FFC is wordier than it needs to be, hence I'd describe them as equally concise. WP:CONCISE is pretty clear that it's goal is not to find the shortest possible name, it's to avoid extraneous words where clarity is already achieved - i.e. it's an argument for Fremantle Football Club over Fremantle Football Club Limited, not for FD over FFC.
 * Consistency: I have three perspectives here. 1) Neither FD nor FFC is inconsistent with the two extant naming conventions for AFL clubs. 2) The [Location] [Football Club] convention is by far the predominant convention across Australian football articles as a whole when considering all levels and leagues of the game, and so a consistency argument right now would favour using that format whenever possible. 3) It don't believe its possible to bring all clubs to a position of true consistency, since for some clubs like GWS the [Location] [Football Club] would fail precision, others like St Kilda the [Location] [Mascot] would fail naturalness, and if we extended the discussion to all levels, something like Keilor Bulldogs for example probably fails recognizability. So I'd simply say that in Fremantle's case, neither option fails consistency; and that the promise of eventual consistency in a different format is not a strong argument for change.
 * On balance of everything, I feel the specific case of Fremantle is still pretty even and for me the precision argument is what tips me to a weak oppose. But I would be more strongly opposed to almost any other similar move request.
 * Aspirex (talk) 06:36, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 * First of all, thank you very much for actually making an argument that acknowledges and is grounded in our article titling policy.
 * Recognisability: I agree how the club styles itself is of some relevance, and I agree that Fremantle itself uses "[location] Football Club" more often than some AFL clubs. However, the most important factor in recognisability is how the club is named in third-party sources – and in these it's clearly typical to use "Fremantle Dockers".
 * Naturalness: "Fremantle Football Club" isn't unnatural, exactly, but I would say it's oddly formal. Like if someone said to me in conversation with a straight face "Hooray, we finally beat the Fremantle Football Club after five consecutive defeats", or wrote in a match report "The Fremantle Football Club defeated such-and-such in this afternoon's match", I would think that was a bit odd. Like someone saying "I went to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland for the summer". I'm not saying "Fremantle Dockers" is the most natural title – "Freo", "Fremantle" or "the Dockers" are more natural to me, but unsuitable – but it is more natural than "Fremantle Football Club".
 * Precision: You might have an argument here if the club's teams had different names (e.g. Port Adelaide Power/Magpies), but in the Dockers' case this doesn't arise. I'd say the proposed names can't be split on precision.
 * Concision: the section describes its purpose as balancing "brevity with sufficient information to identify the topic". I read that as saying "once you've adequately identified the topic, there's no need for a longer title". We both agree the proposed names tell you what the articles are about – but "Fremantle Dockers" does it in 17 characters, two words; "Fremantle Football Club" does it in 23 characters, three words. I don't think concision is a knockdown argument for using "Fremantle Dockers", but it does favour the title.
 * Consistency – I agree that as it stands there is no consistent naming convention across AFL clubs to appeal to. But I'm not sure the correct response is to open up the reference class to all Australian rules football clubs at every level – that seems too wide to me. By analogy, I'm not sure it would make sense to take observations about naming conventions for articles on Premier League clubs and apply them to justify moving articles on Major League Soccer teams, even though they are both soccer leagues. For me, in the absence of a league-wide convention, the more appropriate reference class is (roughly) "AFL-era relocations, rebrandings or expansion teams", where the [location] [mascot] format is clearly dominant.
 * – Teratix ₵ 09:36, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm amused that we've been able to look at the same criterion of consistency and independently decide the frame of reference is either eight clubs or several thousand. In any case, I think your points have merit and the discussion was worth having, but I'm unlikely to change from my view that either name would be valid and therefore the case for change is not strong. Aspirex (talk) 09:59, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Strongest possible oppose - Absolutely not. We are not a marketing arm of the AFL. The-Pope (talk) 12:38, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorry, you're going to have to elaborate on that one. How does using "Fremantle Dockers" make us the marketing arm of the AFL? Are all those third-party sources I linked just marketing arms of the AFL? – Teratix ₵ 12:47, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Website is still Fremantlefc.com.au, they still refer to themselves as the Fremantle Football Club whenever they are talking seriously about themselves, see the sponsors lists (FFC) and acknowledgment of country on the homepage. Their Twitter and Instagram accounts are @FreoDockers, not Fremantle Dockers. Geelong is actually the traditional club that has embraced the "location nickname" more than any other club, as they don't want to be associated with the GFC acronym post the Global financial crisis.  The-Pope (talk) 13:33, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The tagline for the website is "the official website of the Fremantle Dockers", "Fremantle Dockers" is on the logo, their app is "Fremantle Dockers Official App", their team store is "Fremantle Dockers Official Team Store". The Twitter and Instagram accounts are "Fremantle Dockers" (freodockers is the @ handle, not the name). But I'm not willing to quibble over exactly what Fremantle call themselves – plainly they sometimes use "Fremantle Football Club" and sometimes "Fremantle Dockers" – because what's relevant when determining COMMONNAME is the name third-party sources use most often. I've presented a variety of sources that favour "Fremantle Dockers" and to this point I have not seen any counter-analyses demonstrating independent outlets prefer "Fremantle Football Club" instead. – Teratix ₵ 14:22, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

 * Oppose - Far more Australians know Collingwood as a football team than as a suburb of Melbourne. The nicknames are marketing tools. They are not the primary names of the clubs. HiLo48 (talk) 22:21, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Cool, cool, and you have third-party sources to back this up, right? – Teratix ₵ 02:08, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I have the policy of WP:BLUE. HiLo48 (talk) 02:10, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, if it's really as "obvious as the sky is blue" then I'm sure you will have no absolutely no trouble finding sources to this effect. – Teratix ₵ 02:26, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Um HiLo48, this move is regarding Fremantle, not Collingwood. Steelkamp (talk) 07:16, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 * From the first paragraph above - "we should be using the "[location] [mascot]" combination more often, if not in all cases". HiLo48 (talk) 08:45, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 * To clarify, this particular move request only relates to Fremantle. – Teratix ₵ 13:57, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 * In which case, I will Oppose on the basis of keeping the structure of all club names consistent. HiLo48 (talk) 17:23, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The club names are already inconsistent: some use [location] [mascot], some use [location] Football Club. If consistency is your highest concern, you should support [location] [mascot] for every club, because some clubs don't go by [location] Football Club at all, even on a legal basis. I personally think consistency is but one factor that has to be weighed against other aspects of titling policy, including concision, recognisability and use by sources. – Teratix ₵ 00:53, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 * We are not going to make them consistent by making bad changes to the names of the older clubs. HiLo48 (talk) 09:02, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 * If or when there's a move request for Collingwood, feel free to oppose with a policy-based argument. But this move request concerns Fremantle. Arguing over whether we should move Collingwood (or any non-Fremantle club) is at best premature and at worst pointless. – Teratix ₵ 09:42, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Your very first post here implied that you would like to see this done for all clubs. If your goal is now different, we now have an ill-formed proposal, and you should probably start again. HiLo48 (talk) 09:27, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to engage any further here, it's obvious to any closer your arguments don't address the immediate question at hand, which is whether to move our article on Fremantle. – Teratix ₵ 09:48, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

 * Support as per WP:CRITERIA, WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CONCISE. Steelkamp (talk) 07:15, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 *  Weak Strong oppose on the face of it it makes sense, but the mascots do change and the legal entity is Fremantle Football Club LimitedASIC records thats held since its inception in 1994, Freo Dockers could equally hold true as the articles name. I'm not sure other associted articles will warrant a change to Fremantle Dockers foo or even be a likely usage of those terms.  I do note there have been more than one Fremantle Football Club so if a move was considered on point then the Disambiguation page must be Fremantle Football Club to explain where it is rather than being replaced by another itteration from more than one code that will cause confusion. Gnangarra 07:53, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 * the mascots do change No, not really. The last club to change its nickname was Fitzroy back in 1957. If Fremantle ever ditched "Dockers" for whatever reason (this won't happen), we could always move the article again later on.
 * the legal entity is Fremantle Football Club Limited We don't care about the legal name, we care about the name that is commonly used. Third-party sources typically use "Fremantle Dockers", not "Fremantle Football Club". Freo Dockers could equally hold true as the articles name. No, third-party sources tend to use "Fremantle Dockers", not "Freo Dockers".
 * I'm not sure other associted articles will warrant a change to Fremantle Dockers foo Why not? It would be consistent with the new name for this article.
 * I do note there have been more than one Fremantle Football Club People typing in "Fremantle Football Club" are overwhelmingly more likely to be looking for the modern AFL team than the obscure 19th-century clubs. Supposing we end up moving the article, the best thing to do would be to redirect "Fremantle Football Club" to "Fremantle Dockers" and add a hatnote mentioning Fremantle Football Club (disambiguation) exists, not too dissimilar to how the article currently handles the situation.
 * – Teratix ₵ 14:18, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 * actually last change was fitzroy to Brisbane, South Melbourne to Sydney, also some clubs have recently started using an Indigenous name for games. We do care about the Clubs name thats why we are discussing it, and Fremantle Football club is what it is and it has been since 1994. The way other articles read they dont all translate to Freo Dockers.  A redirect can be over written at any stage with anew article, if the redirect is becessary then it show that changing the article landing page isnt the best idea.  Thanks for replying I now more strongly opposed I think the change is a bad move. Gnangarra 06:04, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 * actually last change was fitzroy to Brisbane, South Melbourne to Sydney Those changes were club relocations or mergers, not changes in the club nicknames (South Melbourne had been known as the Swans long before they moved to Sydney, for example).
 * some clubs have recently started using an Indigenous name for games These are temporary rebrandings, completely irrelevant to a discussion on what the club's typical name is.
 * Fremantle Football club is what it is and it has been since 1994. The legal name for a subject is often not the same as the common name. To find out what the common name is, we see what third-party sources use. If sources tend to use a different name to the legal name, we use this different name instead. Bringing up the legal name is therefore absolutely irrelevant if the common name is different. For example, our article on the international soccer federation is at "FIFA", not "Fédération Internationale de Football Association", because no-one calls it that.
 * A redirect can be over written at any stage with anew article This is just an argument against ever having redirects whatsover, for any reason – any redirect can be overwritten with a new article, not just a "Fremantle Football Club" → "Fremantle Dockers" redirect. It's unfair to selectively apply this as an argument against a move you dislike.
 * if the redirect is becessary then it show that changing the article landing page isnt the best idea Again, this is just an argument against every instance where someone moves a page and then has the previous title redirect to the new title. This isn't just common practice, it's actually the default behaviour for when you move a page – the old title will automatically redirect to the new title. Again, it's unfair to selectively apply this as an argument against a move you dislike.
 * – Teratix ₵ 08:20, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 * it's unfair to selectively apply this as an argument against a move you dislike considering you are in the minority, its unfair and unproductive to hound every comment that disagrees with you. In the interest of a fair discussion where the closing admin can follow what consensus is please stop. Theres a policy or guideline on what you are doing but I'm not wasting more time you actions arent going to change my mind again. Gnangarra 09:21, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
 * When you make unreasonable arguments on a move request, you should expect to be called out for that – it's not hounding. – Teratix ₵ 09:45, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
 * my arguements werent unreasonable, I was weak oppose, ie open to other possabilities if they were put up mostly I wasnt convince on how it will impact other articles and what would replace it if moved. Disambiguation should be at the primary titke, unless there is clear primary topic.  In this case yuo were saying that its not the primary topic, so that would make it the disambuguation page yet you wanted a redirect indicating you still think its the primary topic for this page it can't be both. Either its the primary topic here, or its moved to where it is. Gnangarra 13:45, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
 * yuo were saying that its not the primary topic No, I said the exact opposite: "People typing in "Fremantle Football Club" are overwhelmingly more likely to be looking for the modern AFL team than the obscure 19th-century clubs".
 * you still think its the primary topic for this page it can't be both. Either its the primary topic here, or its moved to where it is. No, it's very often the case that a topic is still the primary topic for a term not matching its title – in this case, the term redirects to the primary topic, not a disambiguation page. See WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT. For example, "Einstein" redirects to Albert Einstein, not Einstein (disambiguation); "Libel" redirects to Defamation, not Libel (disambiguation) – likewise, presuming we move Fremantle's article, "Fremantle Football Club" should redirect there, not to Fremantle Football Club (disambiguation). We even have a template that generates a standard hatnote for situations like these.
 * Your last comment was difficult to understand because you used "it" without a clear referent, meaning it was often ambiguous whether you were talking about a topic or a term, and which particular topics/terms you were meaning to refer to. You also used the terms "primary topic" and "primary title" in nonstandard ways which again made it more difficult to parse. Please don't do this.
 * – Teratix ₵ 14:15, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose per the arguments of The Pope and HiLo JarrahTree 11:39, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose per above - the official name is common and fine. SportingFlyer  T · C  11:32, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I didn't go to all the trouble of collating all those third-party sources showing "Fremantle Dockers" so people could leave drive-by comments claiming the legal name is "common" without a shred of evidence, you know. If you're going to provide an alternative assessment, at least have the decency to link the sources you're basing this assessment on. Otherwise I'm not sure why a closer would give this comment any weight. – Teratix ₵ 11:45, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose As others have noted, the official name is well used and understood. For these things, I think a good guide is the AFL website's ladder, which lists it as just "Fremantle". Some clubs list their nicknames there but that's clearly the choice of the club.: . Superegz (talk) 23:08, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The ladder is indeed evidence for "Fremantle" as a common name, but that title is unworkable on Wikipedia because there's the small matter of Fremantle, the place, having its own article. It tells us nothing about whether "Fremantle Football Club" or "Fremantle Dockers" would be a better alternative. And for the umpteenth time, claiming the official name is well used means squat if you don't have the sources to back it up. – Teratix ₵ 03:13, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment I think you are twisting somewhat, what I am saying. The clubs commonly referred to by their nicknames in the ladder are those that are most commonly called that in the media and by fans, while most of the other clubs simply listed by their name are those that people are most used to calling "NAME" Football Club. The ladder is a reflection of common practice. Superegz (talk) 03:51, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh, I think I understand, you're saying if a club is listed as [location] on the ladder we should use [location] Football Club and only use [location] [mascot] if it is listed as [location] [mascot]. In that case, I don't accept that as a valid inference. If it's true that the ladder is a reflection of common practice, back that up with sources, please, not just words. – Teratix ₵ 04:06, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose, all formal and official correspondence from the club, is always addressed as being from the Fremantle Football Club. As previously stated the official name is well used and understood and as such there is no need to change. Dan arndt (talk) 03:18, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose, all formal and official correspondence from the club, is always addressed as being from the Fremantle Football Club. As previously stated the official name is well used and understood and as such there is no need to change. Dan arndt (talk) 03:18, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

 * Oppose - based on @HiLo48hilo48 and @Gnangarra arguments Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 04:02, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

 * Oppose – per the cogent arguments from those above. Storm machine (talk) 22:32, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Relisting comment - there's a lot of opposition to the proposal given above, but the substance of that opposition is very weak at present. The support provided a volume of sources that use the proposed name, giving a strong suggestion that it is more commonly used than the present, and that wasn't really rebuffed. Instead, a lot of the oppose !votes seem to be little more than I don't like it arguments... But then again, with such a volume it's tricky to just close directly against the numbers. Hoping with another week, we can reach a more clear conclusion. — Amakuru (talk) 14:24, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment Just wondering why this is still open. Superegz (talk) 02:16, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
 * It's hard to close RMs when the side with the numerical majority makes bad arguments. The closer can favour the raw numbers, but this makes it difficult to write a coherent closing statement with reference to policy. But it's just as difficult to say a minority position can really represent a consensus, even if it's the better argument. – Teratix ₵ 04:26, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Comment My opposition to this proposal is clear. Just to add to the discussion after its been dead for a while, I just noticed that a new coin issued by the Royal Australian Mint has gone with "Fremantle Football Club". . Superegz (talk) 08:53, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Indigenous games streak
Hey, This week Fremantles 30 year, 650+ game streak of having an indigenous player playing is going to end. Is this notable enough to be placed anywhere on this page? Flipstatic Energy (talk) 12:52, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Until this week, it was just WP:OR (by me). Now that it's gone mainstream, it probably can be added. The-Pope (talk) 16:37, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Fremantle Football Club


text: Template:Ireland Diesel Locomotives

title: Template:Ireland Diesel Locomotives


text:
Jean-Denis Delétraz

Jean-Denis Delétraz (born 1 October 1963) is a Swiss racing driver. He participated in three Formula One Grands Prix, debuting in the 1994 Australian Grand Prix. Before reaching Formula One, he scored two third places in the 1988 Formula 3000 season, but principally earned his three Formula One drives as a pay driver. After Formula One, he competed in sports car racing, with two class wins at the 24 Hours of Le Mans.

Pre-Formula One
Delétraz had some success in his early career, including two wins in Formula Ford cars. He went on to compete in Formula Three between 1985 and 1987 in the French championship, finishing 14th in the final standings in 1987. Between 1988 and 1991, he competed in Formula 3000 and during 1990 he bought the FIRST racing team, but was never able to match the success of 1988 and scored no points. During 1991 the team was impounded by an Italian court for a time after legal action from the team's other driver, Giovanni Bonanno.

In 1992 and 1993, Deletraz competed in the French Touring Car Championship and the Porsche Supercup with little success. In 1994, Delétraz was signed as a driver for the SEAT works team in the French Touring Car Championship. His best result was fifth place in the race at Nogaro and he finished thirteenth overall in the standings.

1994: Larrousse
Towards the end of 1994, Larrousse was, like a number of other teams at the time, running short of money and needed pay drivers to keep the team afloat. Larrousse's number 19 car, which had started the year being driven by Olivier Beretta, was now being driven by drivers who could bring sponsorship money to the team. For the final race of the year in Australia, Larrousse let the aero-car inexperienced, physically unfit Delétraz replace Érik Comas in the team's second car for more sponsorship money in order to aid their financial situation.

During qualifying, Delétraz qualified in 25th position, ahead of Simtek's Domenico Schiattarella. However, Schiattarella overtook him during the first lap of the Grand Prix, and Delétraz gradually dropped back from the rest of the field. He retired on lap 57 with gearbox failure, after he had already been lapped ten times. He was lapping the circuit six seconds slower than the leaders, two seconds slower than his teammate Hideki Noda and 1–2 seconds slower than the next slowest driver Schiattarella. He was described by BBC commentator Jonathan Palmer as "having no business in Formula One."

Yes Delétraz, really, here having no business in Formula One. And demonstrating it there: he's spending all of his modest effort, frankly, keeping the car on the road. He's holding up Gerhard Berger there, who has now lost a second on Nigel Mansell, in the Larrousse. This is, I'm afraid, one of the problems of the Grand Prix season - at the end of the year we do get one or two drives being taken by people who've got more money than talent, and that's one example of it.

1995: Pacific
Pacific Team Lotus started with shareholder Bertrand Gachot and Andrea Montermini as its drivers, but similar to Larrousse the previous year, the team needed pay drivers to continue the season and Gachot vacated his seat. It was announced that Delétraz would be competing in the final five races of the season.

During qualifying for his first round of the year, in Portugal, Delétraz was hindered by a gearbox problem which saw him qualify last, twelve seconds behind pole-position sitter David Coulthard. In the race, Delétraz was 40 seconds behind Coulthard after 3 laps, and was lapping the circuit 12 seconds slower than the leaders and 6–7 seconds than the next slowest driver Roberto Moreno in a Forti and 7–8 seconds slower than his team-mate Montermini. He was lapped by the leaders after seven laps of the race, and after fourteen he retired from the race with cramp in his left arm. This drew criticism as Estoril is a clockwise circuit, which requires more work from the right arm. In his second race at the Nürburgring, he qualified just over nine seconds behind pole-position, and he finished the race in fifteenth place as the last finisher, seven laps behind the winner. At one point while he was being lapped by the leaders, Delétraz suddenly darted his car across the track from one side to the other and back again, prompting BBC commentator Murray Walker to exclaim "And what is Delétraz doing? Doesn't matter what he's doing."

At the next race, he was replaced by Bertrand Gachot after planned replacements were denied superlicenses. It had been expected that Delétraz would be competing until the end of the season, but he defaulted on payment and Keith Wiggins, principal of the Pacific team stated, "On ability alone, we are not willing to keep him."

The slow qualifying speeds of drivers like Delétraz resulted in the introduction of the 107% rule for the 1996 season - with some F1 fans nicknaming the new regulation the "Delétraz rule" as a result.

Sports Car Racing
After his tenure in Formula One, Delétraz focused on endurance racing, running in the 24 Hours of LeMans and the BPR Global GT Series in 1995. 1996 saw Delétraz move to the FIRST Racing operation he now co-owned with fellow driver Fabien Giroix. Two years in the BPR Global GT Series in a McLaren F1 GTR was followed by a move to the FIA GT Championship in 1997, with FIRST running the works Lotus Elise GT1s. After a couple of years away, FIRST and Delétraz returned to the FIA Championship in 2000 with a Ferrari 550 Maranello. In 2002, he took four wins in the series with team-mate Andrea Piccini in a BMS Scuderia Italia-run 550, and the pair finished fifth in the championship. They then drove a works Lister Storm in 2003. He has also scored two class wins at the 24 Hours of Le Mans, in 2001 and 2002 in the LMP675 class. He was also one of the drivers of the Chevrolet Corvette C6.R that won the 2007 Spa 24 Hours.

Jean-Denis's son, Louis, is also a racing driver with experience in Formula 2, endurance, and sports car racing.

Complete International Formula 3000 results
(key) (Races in bold indicate pole position) (Races in italics indicate fastest lap)

Complete World Sportscar Championship results
(key) (Races in bold indicate pole position) (Races in italics indicate fastest lap)

Complete Formula One results
(key)

Complete FIA GT Championship results
(key) (Races in bold indicate pole position) (Races in italics indicate fastest lap)

Complete FIA World Endurance Championship results
(key) (Races in bold indicate pole position; races in italics indicate fastest lap)

title: Jean-Denis Delétraz


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User talk:Caranoch

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User talk:Chriskl

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PlaneShift screenshots
Please add some captions to the PlaneShift screenshots you added: I don't know the game to understand what they refer to. HTH HAND --Phil | Talk 10:08, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

Hi
How fun would you say PlaneShift is? I might get it. --66.82.9.82 22:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

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User talk:Stuart hc

Hi! welcome to Wikipedia!

Hope you enjoy contributing to Wikipedia. Be bold in editing pages. Here are some links that you might find useful:

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Proposed deletion of Fair play for musicians
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Thunder River Rapids Ride incident
Hi Stuart hc ('occasional contributer'),

As you are interested in this event, you might like to review, check or copy edit the content at Ardent Leisure.

Regards, 220  of  Borg 06:10, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

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Your revisions to History of Australia
Hello Stuart hc

I have reverted your revisions to the section on female suffrage because the previous version was more accurate and your revisions are not supported by the cited sources. For example, the reinstated version states that the introduction of female suffrage in WA had some racial restrictions. These aren't weasel words, but an attempt to briefly and accurately summarise a complex issue. The restrictions were on aboriginal, Asian and African voters who were not naturalised British subjects and who did not meet the property qualification for voting. So it is wrong to say that only "White" women for enfranchised - Aboriginal, Asian and African women who met the property qualification and were British subjects could also vote, as could "non-White" women of other origins who were British subjects and met the residency qualification. Also your changes give the misleading impression that racial restrictions were uniform across the States and Commonwealth and that only "White" women benefited from the female franchise. This isn't the case, Restrictions varied from state to state and also between the states and Commonwealth, and racial restrictions were a separate issue from the female franchise per se. I agree that the article doesn't fully reflect the complexity of the situation, but we need to remember that it is a general article on the history of Australia which can't be expected to go into the details. I think the article as it stands makes it clear that there were racial restrictions on voting and that this was separate from the extension of female suffrage. Happy to discuss. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 12:53, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

 * 1) The phrase "with some racial restrictions" is a textbook example of weasel words in this context. White women were a minority in WA in 1900 (although the British colony did not count indigenous people in its census modern estimates put the pre-colonial population of Australia at 3 million, and WA had the lowest population of white people in 1900 - https://theconversation.com/the-first-australians-grew-to-a-population-of-millions-much-more-than-previous-estimates-142371), so to say "women had the vote with some racial restrictions" gives the impression most women had the vote when only a minority of women had the vote.
 * 2) As you say this is a summary article so I dropped the property qualification. All indigenous Australians were British subjects under colonial law. The number of indigienous people who were substantial land owners under British colonial law was close to if not actually zero (colonial law did not recognise First Nations land rights). So it is correct to summarise the situation as "White women won the vote".
 * 3) Before the 1902 Franchise Act the voting restrictions were different state by state (but only WA and Qld had a White-only restriction). After 1902 the White-only racial restriction was uniform across the Commonwealth and gradually the states changed, and Section 41 of the constitution effectively expired over the next few years, so that all the states were also uniform in their White-only racial restriction by 1922 (this is all in the https://www.aec.gov.au/indigenous/milestones.htm reference but also ). This is a summary article so the important dates and milestones are used, with the most important being 1984 when universal suffrage was reached in Australia. Some may argue that 1962 is more important for women's suffrage but 1962's law made it illegal to encourage indigenous men and women to enrol and voting wasn't compulsory so no resources were made available (there were no polling stations in many indigenous communities) effectively disenfranchising a substantial portion of the female (and male) population. Women's suffrage was a solved problem in New Zealand in 1893, but trying to ignore the racial restrictions in Australia that lasted until 1984. It may be better to just omit the sentence about the WA 1900 Act since it was such a small White population and complicated by race and property restrictions, and instead describe the 1902 Franchise Act which covered all of Australia at the federal level.
 * 4) The White-only racial restriction was controversial even in 1902 when the Franchise Bill 1902 was introduced. This bill proprosed universal suffrage for all adult subjects (both men and women and included indigenous subjects). However as the bill was debated, an amendment was eventually added to specifically excluded non-White people (except Maori) - "No aboriginal native of Australia, Asia, Africa or the Islands of the Pacific except New Zealand shall be entitled to have his name placed on an Electoral Roll unless so entitled under section forty-one of the Constitution". This amendment was described at the time as "monstrous piece of savagery [on the part of the government]" by senator O'Connor. The race restriction remained controversial until 1984 so it deserves more accurate treatment than the weasel words in the existing History of Australia article. Stuart hc (talk) 05:57, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * You have misunderstood the article on the Commonwealth Electoral Act, so I have also reverted your changes to that article. The Commonwealth Act did not override state legislation, so anyone (including Aboriginals, Asians etc) who were entitled to vote in the states continued to be so entitled and were entitled to vote in Commonwealth elections as well. In NSW, Victoria, SA and Tasmania Aboriginal people were entitled to vote unless they fell within another category of exclusion. There was no "White only racial exclusion" operating in Australia, although plenty of politicians did want such and exclusion and there were racial restrictions on the franchise. The article on the Commonwealth Franchise Act 1902 needs work to capture the complexities and I would be happy to work with you to improve it. However, you need to fix the body of the article first in order to change the lead, as the lead should be an accurate summary of the body of the article. Also please note that there are no reliable estimates of the Indigenous population of Australia before 1788. Current estimates range from 300,000 to 3 million. By 1900 there were perhaps 200,000. Also note that it was only "full blooded" aborigines who were excluded from the Census and many restrictions only applied to "full blooded" natives. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 10:32, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your recent edits to the Commonwealth Franchise Act 1902 article. Your new summary addressed my concerns with the previous phrase "with some racial restrictions".
 * The details about Section 41 you added are very important to how the Act was applied in practice and the High Court THE QUEEN v. PEARSON reference is relevant.
 * There's one word that remains in the article which is misleading - namely "uniform". When the bill was originally proposed it was for a uniform franchise and the senators (e.g. O'Connor) and lower house members of parliament supporting the original bill referred to that form of the bill during discussion as the uniform franchise. The final version of the bill when passed had the extra restrictions and was not considered a "uniform" franchise by any side. So to avoid the misleading use of "uniform" we can change the first sentence from
 * "The Commonwealth Franchise Act 1902 was an Act of the Parliament of Australia which defined a uniform national criteria of who was entitled to vote in Australian federal elections"
 * to
 * "The Commonwealth Franchise Act 1902 was an Act of the Parliament of Australia which set out who was entitled to vote in Australian federal elections"
 * (there's another use of uniform further down which could also be omitted).
 * One more point to improve accuracy is that "unless they already had voting rights in an Australian state" should change to "unless they were already enrolled to vote in an Australian state". The following is from "Citizens Without Rights" by Chesterman and Galligan
 * "Whether or not Aboriginal men were actually on the Victorian electoral roll prior to 1901 would become crucial in determining whether they could vote federally. In a provision designed to protect the rights of the women who had already won the vote in some States, section 41 of the Commonwealth Constitution provided that people who had the vote at State level could not be prevented from voting federally. Accordingly, the Commonwealth Franchise Act, which otherwise excluded Aborigines, gave the vote to those Aborigines who had the vote at State level (by means of an exception required by section 41 of the Constitution). But, as Pat Stretton and Christine Finnimore have shown, this provision was defined narrowly to mean that only those voters actually enrolled at the State level prior to 1902 were entitled to the protection of section 41."
 * (the Stretton and Finnimore reference mentioned in that quote is "Black fellow citizens : Aborigines and the Commonwealth franchise")
 * The "A Federal Story" reference has a footnote describing that Section 41 was interpreted even more narrowly after 1912
 * "A later interpretation by Garran (in 1912) narrowed the Commonwealth's view even further so that unless an Aboriginal person had actually had their name on a Commonwealth Electoral Roll, the mere fact that they had been enrolled to vote in NSW, South Australia, Tasmania or Victoria before 1902 did not protect their right to vote at Commonwealth elections" Stuart hc (talk) 11:34, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback. I'll make those changes.Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 11:44, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

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CIÉ 401 Class

The Córas Iompair Éireann 401 Class locomotives were built in 1957–1958 and designed for use on branch line traffic and shunting. They were fitted with a Maybach MD220 engine of 420 hp, with diesel hydraulic transmission via a Mekydro KL64 transmission, and were of C wheel arrangement.

Though they had a design maximum speed of 100 km/h, experience showed that they did not ride well when travelling at speeds over 40 km/h and so henceforth were limited to that speed. They were numbered E401–E419, and were withdrawn from service between 1968 and 1977 and none were preserved.

Model
The E401 was available as a resin model from "Q Kits", but this company is no longer trading as the owner has retired.

A 401 Body is now available from Shapeways via Valvedesigns (a Rapid Prototyping Service)

title: CIÉ 401 Class