text:
User talk:Nickj/Redirects

"Orphaned" Redirects
In 006, 009, 010 and 012, the redirects that "remain to be fixed" are not linked from anywhere except that page, a general "Encyclopedia Topics" and in one case, an obscure talk page (something/parentheses/s). I didn't strike them out because I think it's too much work and a lot more waiting for pages to load, etc. In retrospect, I should have stricken the ones that are linked from the Encylopedia topics list or talk page so your program wouldn't pick it up again on the next run, but there's only about 5 in total. Regarding Nakhon Pathom, Nonthaburi and Yasothon (in 012), all of the pages who point to that page refer to the capital and never the province, so I didn't think the redirect should point to the province (of the same name), so I've stricken it. If you disagree, I'll/you remove the strikethrough. Anyway, let me know if those pages can be added to the complete list. --jag123 09:10, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * There's at least a couple more, to do with centuries, where someone has used a construction like  to display "12th and 13th centuries" with the appropriate linkage: these are totally bogus (far better is  ) but the REDIRECTs have been created anyway. --Phil | Talk 16:49, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

Redirects insufficiently specified
I've seen several redirects created now based on suggestions apparently from this page. In particular, redirects are suggested for Township articles when they should be disambigs. For example, Portage Township or Medford Township. If possible, please update the report criteria to do a better job of identifying articles with the same name before the first comma. Or at least, have some instructions to users to do some sort of verification (either searching on Wikipedia or using the Americam Factfiner to check for other entities with the same name. older ≠ wiser 16:40, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)

 * Good catch. What I was doing before was using cut-offs and percentages so that the most popular choice would be suggested as a redirect, rather than a disambig, if it was popular enough. That works well for most things, but, as your examples show, it does not work well for geographical names. So I've added a new category for "Geographical Disambiguations", where one or more of the suggested target names include a comma, and also includes the name of an American state (note I'm not an American, but the simple fact is that the majority of geographical articles currently are American). For geographical disambigs, if something is suggested even once, then it gets added to the disambig - (which for example now catches all the things you added to Portage Township and Medford Township). Note that these new listings can overlap with the other redirect and disambiguation listings - so I've also commented out the current remaining disambig listings, and I'll regenerate those after the geographical disambigs have been done. Also I won't add any more redirect listings until the 19 geographical disambig lists have been completed. -- All the best, Nickj (t) 03:38, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The little numbers which are usually 7
What do they mean? Do they indicate the number of times that such a link redirection occurs? --Smack (talk) 03:35, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * They indicate the number of different pages that a suggestion occurs on - for example something else would count as one suggestion that "something else" should be a redirect to "something". Suggestions only get counted once per page, and were only listed if "something else" did not already exist, but "something" did. For more detailed info, there was a discussion on User talk:Jag123 about how the numbers are generated. Hope that helps. -- All the best, Nickj (t) 04:03, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Struck-out suggestions
Please create a list of suggestions that were struck out on your next run. Some were probably valid. r3m0t 17:33, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * This has been done now, but sorry it took me 8 months! :-) All the best, Nickj (t) 06:27, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

a different way to suggest redirects
If anybody would be interested in the coding, I think I have useful way to suggest some good redirects. If an article is titled with the word Guatemala, for example (like history of Guatemala), suggest a redirect for the adjective, as in Guatemalan history (and vice versa). It'll produce some bad hits, but a lot of useful ones. Tuf-Kat 07:41, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)

Disambiguation pages
If there is an existing page: Best city in Australia is either: * Sydney * Melbourne * Canberra and a link "best city in Australia", would it be reasonable to suggest that Hobart be added? --Martin Rudat(T|@|C) 08:13, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds very reasonable to me. So where:
 * There is a link on page C, where the link label is A, and A is "a good link", and the link target is B.
 * There is a disambig page at A, which does not link to B, or contain any link that redirects to B (e.g. cannot contain Hobart, Tasmania).
 * Then suggest that disambig page A also include target B in the list of possible definitions.
 * The main problem I have (besides actually writing the code to do this) is how to communicate the suggestion. The previous approach of "easy preview" links to create/update redirects/disambigs will no longer work (they've been disabled in MediaWiki since Feb of 2005 - see the bug for getting these re-enabled). So although I think it's a good idea, it may have to wait until that bug is resolved, and I get around to testing some code for doing this (which, knowing me, is likely to take a while). Alternatively, if you're feeling super keen, you're more than welcome to have a go at implementing it. -- All the best, Nickj (t) 03:06, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

title: User talk:Nickj/Redirects


text:
Canacona taluka

Canacona is an administrative region in the district of South Goa, Goa state, India.

Canacona is one of the six subdivisions (talukas) that constitute the South Goa district. It is bounded on the north by the taluka of Quepem, on the northeast by Sanguem, on the south by the state of Karnataka, and on the west by the Arabian Sea. The town of Chaudi is the administrative headquarters of the taluka of Canacona.

The name Canacona is a corruption of the name Konkan. The area was one of the districts of the former Kingdom of Soonda, itself a remnant of the former Vijayanagara Empire. When Soonda was invaded and partially occupied by Hyder Ali of Mysore, the heirless Raja ceded the remaining parts to Portugal; and these were incorporated into Goa as the districts of Quepem, Sanguem, and Canacona. In the recent elections, Kishen Naikgaunkar got elected as the President of the Canacona, and Samba Naik Desai got elected as an Attorney.

Canacona was incorporated into Goa in AD 1794. Like most of Goa, the culture of the district reflects an Indo-Portuguese fusion, yet Canacona experienced less Lusitanisation than the central Velhas Conquistas (Old Conquests) of Goa.

Demographics
At the time of the 2011 Census of India, Canacona has a population of 45,172 with sex ratio of 1005 females to 1000 males. Canacona Taluka has an average literacy rate of 84.68%, higher than the national average of 74.04%: male literacy is 90.02% and female literacy is 79.39%. Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes make up 0.38% and 30.23% of the population respectively. 27.53% of the population lives in urban areas.

Religion
Hinduism is followed by the majority of population of Canacona Taluka. Christians form a significant minority. At the time of the 2011 Census of India 80.47% of the population of the Taluka followed Hinduism, 17.70% Christianity, 1.69% Islam and 0.24% of the population followed other religions or did not state a religious affiliation.

Languages
Konkani and Marathi are among the most spoken languages in Canacona Taluka.

At the time of 2011 Census of India, 87.26% of the population of Canacona Taluka spoke Konkani, 6.27% Marathi, 1.63% Hindi and 1.53% Kannada as their first language.

Transport
The Canacona railway station of the Konkan Railways is located at the center of the district, close to the tourist attractions of the coast. The railway junction of Margao to the north is the closest major rail station. Buses from Bombay may terminate at Panaji (Panjim), but some go on to Margao. The Canacona bus stand opened in 2004 is considered by many to be among the best designed bus-stands in India. Highway Route NH17 from Bombay to Goa connects Chaudi to Margao and Panaji. The newly constructed Canacona bypass in November 2019 NH 66 highway named after Manohar Parrikar the bypass named after him "Manohar Parrikar bypass" as it was his and many people dream. It shortens 10 km of distance from old highway of 18 km and this bypass is of just 8 km connecting mashem to char rasta which can be completed the distance in couple of minutes with the scenic coastal view. The scenic coastal road connects Navelim, Chinchinim, Assolna, Betul, and Canaguinim.

Additional Konkan Railway station in Cancona started functioning in 2013 in Loliem which is the southernmost village in Cancona right on Goa-Karnataka border.

Maps

 * FallingRain Map

Tourism
Tourism is rather human-scale, people-friendly and relatively more-affordable than other parts of Goa. Away from the coast, Canacona and its neighbouring district of Quepem have a number of off-the-beaten-track destinations and unusual festivals.

The tourism industry, which developed first in central Goa, did not develop in Canacona until the early 1990s. Much of the tourist infrastructure here is run through small-scale local initiatives.

In Goa, generally, locals have mixed feelings though about the impact of tourism on the region, with views increasingly pointing to the environmental degradation and social distortions due to the growth of this sector; however, the discussion remains largely academic, with few people directly involved in the field being influenced by the debates. Canacona was relatively left untouched by tourism until the early nineties as it was not easily accessible by public transport and the local economy wasn't enterprising enough to cater to tourists. Incidentally there was just one restaurant in the main street of canacona where one could expect the local meal during the day in the eighties.

Tourist attractions
Canacona's beach belt, 'discovered' by tourism only after the 1990s, is among the most scenic. Palolem is a milder recreation of an east-meets-west Goan beach, with a rich variety of exotic food and accommodation to cater to the international palate. Polem is another beach situated at the south of Canacona which too is popular among tourists.

But beyond the better-known Palolem and Agonda, there are nearly a dozen-and-half lesser-known (or even hidden) beaches. Some are just tiny strips of sand. Vaturem and Xendrem are secluded beaches. Quepem's narrow sea front has a two or three beaches, known for their picture-postcard quality.

The most prominent Hindu institution of Canacona, and indeed of all Goa, is the Parthagali Math ("Portuguese Hindu Mutt") - a five centuries-old ashram and cult headquarters built in a mix of Portuguese and Hindu architectural styles. Besides, there are famous Hindu temples at Zambaulim and Fatorpa. Also the Mallikarjun Temple, Shristhal built by the Kshatriya samaj is very beautiful and known for its versatile festivals.

Canacona is one part of Goa where hillocks jut out almost directly into the sea. Villages are tucked away in low-lying areas, which are carpeted by a sea of green-topped coconut trees. Until foreign migration and tourism came to this area, the coconut tree was the means by which many eked a living, apart from fishing.

Some tourists are accommodated in beach huts, temporary beachside thatched huts built on coconut trees usually above ground level, right on the beach, during the fair weather (October–May) season.

Sanvordem and Quepem towns have many small, functional hotels. Attached to the temples of Mashem, Mallikarjun and Zambaulim, rooms are available in Agrashalas ("Dharmashalas" or pilgrim-hostels), primarily for pilgrims.

Wildlife
Dolphin-watching and fishing trips attract visitors, especially British and Scandinavian visitors. The beach villages of Palolem and Agonda and the more deserted fort at the Cabo de Rama are developing as tourist destinations.

The Cotigao Wildlife Sanctuary, Goa's second-largest wildlife sanctuary, is located within this district. Its terrain is fairly plain, with hills in the south and east. Much of the sanctuary is covered with dense forests, with a few open grasslands. Forest crown density is often over 50%. Some trees, Goa's loftiest, touch 30 metres.

Villagers have reported sighting tigers, according to officials.

Birds are aplenty; some two hundred species could be spotted, given time and patience. These include the Indian pied hornbill, large golden-backed woodpecker and the great Indian woodpecker.

The Forest Department's scenic but simple rest-house is on the highway at Poinguinim, some 4 km away.

Culture
The Shantadurga temple at Fatorpa, resorted to by both Hindus and Christians, holds its Zatra (i.e., Rath-Yatra or Pilgrimage-festival) on the ninth day of the Hindu month of Margashirish. It falls in Goa's cool season, sometime in December–January. Huge crowds from all over Goa make their way to this small remote village in the district of Quepem, some 5 km from Cuncolim.

During the Zatra, a tall, intricate, decorated, three-tiered wooden chariot (rath), into which the idol of the deity is placed, is and drawn by male devotees in a night procession.

Goa has a range of syncretic practices, where both Hindus and Christians worship at each other's shrines. Nearly every Goan Christian can trace ancestral roots to Hindu ancestors about five centuries ago.

The Hindu priests of the Shantadurga temple know many Goan Christian families by name, because they come to the festival yearly and donate money or goods.

American anthropologist Dr Robert S. Newman conducted detailed studies on this place and its phenomenon of syncretism.

The Shantadurga temple was originally in the village of Cuncolim, located in the consuelho of Salsette a few kilometers away, but was relocated across the then 'international boundary' into the Kingdom of Soonda when the Goa government expelled the Hindus and ordered their shrines demolished.

Another festival celebrated at the Shantadurga temple is the Festival of Umbrellas, or Sontreos. This is observed on the fifth day of Phalgun (usually in March). Once again, both Hindus and Christians take part in a mix of practises that crosses over religious border-lines.

In nearby Quepem, the temple of the Hindu deity Damodar, colloquially called Dam-bab, was relocated from Margao to the village of Zambaulim in what was then the Panchamahal district of the Kingdom of Soonda. Margao's businessmen have close ties with the deity and often conduct their business invoking it.

The Mallikarjun Temple is at Shristhal, some 2.5 km away from Chaudi on the main-road leading to Karwar and is one where devotees head for advice from oracles called the 'kaul'. The advice of the oracles is taken either from priests in a trance or by them interpreting the way flower petals drop down. Locally, Mallikarjun is a popular deity, as visible from the names of local educational institutions. This centuries-old temple was renovated in 1778.

Canacona's supposedly aboriginal population, the Kunbis (with Gaonkar or Velip as their surnames) live in areas around Gaondongri, Cotigao, Chapoli (the site for a proposed new dam), Assali, Kulem, Khola and Agonda; the Velips are the priest class drawn from among the Kunbis.

The village of Loliem has a couple of centuries-old 'hero' stones, etchings on stone to record historic events of the time dating back many centuries. This village's statues of the Hindu deity Betal itself possibly goes back to the seventh century if not earlier, according to "cultural-historian" Phaldessai.

Canacona has several statues of Betal.

Anjediva
Visits to the island of Anjediva, located to the south-west of Canacona, are possible by permission of the Station Commander of the Indian Navy's Seabird Base, which occupies the island. Future visits could be curtailed due to plans by the Navy to step up security.

To visit the island from Goa one has to proceed by any bus going to or via Karwar, leaving in the morning; the journey is about 2½ hours. From the Karwar bus stand one must walk the short distance to the wharves of Karwar port, from where a ferry takes one to the island. One might need to alight into a smaller boat before reaching the shore due to the shallowness of the island's waters.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Canacona taluka


text:
Harry B. Chase

Harry Bryce Chase (born November 22, 1947 ) is a Canadian politician. He was a provincial MLA as a member of the Alberta Liberal Party.

Early life
Harry B. Chase was elected to his first term as a Member of the Legislative Assembly of Alberta for the constituency of Calgary-Varsity on November 22, 2004. He was re-elected for a second term on March 3, 2008.

Chase earned his Bachelor of Education from the University of Calgary in 1971. He served as a teacher for 34 years. During that time, Chase served as the Council of Schools’ representative for over 20 years. He later served the Calgary chair of the Friends of Medicare. He was also a member of the Local 38 branch of the Alberta Teachers’ Association (ATA), serving on the economic policy committee/ teacher welfare branch from 1988 to 1998. He was awarded his lifetime membership with the ATA in 2003.

Political career
Chase ran for public office in the 2001 Alberta general election. He was defeated in a landslide running in the electoral district of Calgary Foothills by Finance Minister Pat Nelson.

He ran for a second time in the 2004 Alberta general election. He defeated Progressive Conservative candidate Michael Symth in what was considered an upset win. He has since represented the riding of Calgary Varsity, which was previously considered a Progressive Conservative stronghold. In his first term in office he served as the official opposition Infrastructure critic.

Chase ran for a second term in office in the 2008 Alberta general election, he was re-elected holding the electoral district with a comfortable plurality. He did not seek re-election in the 2012 election.

title: Harry B. Chase


text:
Xanthelasma

Xanthelasma is a sharply demarcated yellowish deposit of cholesterol underneath the skin. It usually occurs on or around the eyelids (xanthelasma palpebrarum, abbreviated XP). While they are neither harmful to the skin nor painful, these minor growths may be disfiguring and can be removed. There is a growing body of evidence for the association between xanthelasma deposits and blood low-density lipoprotein levels and increased risk of atherosclerosis.

A xanthelasma may be referred to as a xanthoma when becoming larger and nodular, assuming tumorous proportions. Xanthelasma is often classified simply as a subtype of xanthoma.

Diagnosis
Xanthelasma in the form of XP can be diagnosed from clinical impression, although in some cases it may need to be distinguished (differential diagnosis) from other conditions, especially necrobiotic xanthogranuloma, syringoma, palpebral sarcoidosis, sebaceous hyperplasia, Erdheim–Chester disease, lipoid proteinosis (Urbach–Wiethe disease), and the syndrome of adult-onset asthma and periocular xanthogranuloma (AAPOX). Differential diagnosis can be accomplished by surgical excision followed by microscopic examination by a pathologist (biopsy to determine histopathology). The typical clinical impression of XP is soft, yellowish papules, plaques, or nodules, symmetrically distributed on the medial side of the upper eyelids; sometimes the lower eyelids are affected as well.

Treatment
Xanthelasmata can be removed with a trichloroacetic acid peel, surgery, lasers or cryotherapy. Removal may cause, although uncommon, scarring and pigment changes.

Prognosis
Recurrence is common: 40% of patients with XP had recurrence after primary surgical excision, 60% after secondary excision, and 80% when all four eyelids were involved. A possible cause might be insufficiently deep excisions.

Epidemiology
Xanthelasma is a rare disorder in the general population, with a variable incidence of 0.56 to 1.5% in western developed countries. The age of onset ranges from 15 to 75, with a peak in the 4th to 5th decades of life. There also seems to be a greater prevalence in females, but this might be due to higher consciousness to cosmetic defects.

Etymology
The word is derived from Greek xanthós, ξανθός 'yellow' and élasma, έλασμα, 'foil'. The plural is xanthelasmata.

title: Xanthelasma


text:
Talk:Sigelwara Land

Untitled discussion
that's right. I was somehow tricked into the 'Dunharrow' association, and it should probably go. dab (ᛏ) 09:17, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * I think it could remain as an interesting idea, but I would not object if you removed it either.--Wiglaf 10:00, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 13:47, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Sigelwara Land


text:
Razavi Khorasan province

Razavi Khorasan Province {{efn|Also romanized as Ostân-e Xorâsân-e Razavi; also {{lang|fa|خراسان مرکزی}}, romanized as Xorâsân-e Markazi {English: Central Khorasan Province}} is one of the 31 provinces of Iran, located in northeastern Iran. Its capital is the city of Mashhad. Central Khorasan is one of the three provinces that were created after the division of Khorasan Province in 2004. In 2014, it was placed in Region 5 with Mashhad as the location of the region's secretariat.

At the time of the 2006 National Census, the province had a population of 5,515,980 in 1,426,187 households. The following census in 2011 counted 5,994,402 people in 1,716,314 households. At the latest census conducted in 2016, the population had risen to 6,434,501 in 1,938,703 households.

History
The Greater Khorasan has witnessed the rise and fall of many dynasties and governments in its territory throughout history. Various tribes of the Arabs, Turks, Kurds and Turkmens brought changes to the region time and time again.

Ancient geographers of Iran divided Iran ("Ērānshahr") into eight segments of which the most flourishing and largest was the territory of Greater Khorasan. Esfarayen, among other cities of the province, was one of the focal points for residence of the Aryan tribes after entering Iran.

The Parthian Empire was based near Merv in Khorasan for many years. During the Sassanid dynasty, the province was governed by a Spahbod (Lieutenant General) called "Padgošban" and four margraves, each commander of one of the four parts of the province.

Khorasan was divided into four parts during the Muslim conquest of Persia, each section being named after one of the four largest cities, Nishapur, Merv, Herat, and Balkh.

In the year 651, the army of the Rashidun Caliphate conquered Khorasan. The territory remained under the rule of the Abbasid Caliphate until 820, followed by the rule of the Iranian Tahirid dynasty until 873, and the Samanid dynasty in 900.

Mahmud of Ghazni conquered Khorasan in 994, and Tuğrul in the year 1037.

In 1507, Khorasan was occupied by the Uzbek tribes. After the death of Nader Shah in 1747, it was occupied by the Afghan Durrani Empire centered in Qandahar.

In 1824, Herat became independent for several years when the Afghan Empire was split between the Durranis and Barakzais. The Persians sieged the city in 1837, but the British assisted the Afghans in repelling them. In 1856, the Persians launched another invasion and briefly managed to recapture the city; it led directly to the Anglo-Persian War. In 1857 hostilities between the Persians and the British ended after the Treaty of Paris was signed, and the Persian troops withdrew from Herat. Afghanistan reconquered Herat in 1863 under Dost Muhammad Khan, two weeks before his death.

Khorasan was the largest province of Iran until it was divided into three provinces on 29 September 2004. The provinces approved by the parliament of Iran (on 18 May 2004) and the Council of Guardians (on 29 May 2004) were Khorasan-e Razavi, North Khorasan, and South Khorasan.

Archaeological sites
The main archeological sites discovered in this province include:

Kohandezh hills
Excavations conducted by an American team between 1935 and 1940 in Nishapur discovered museum-worthy objects, which were shared with the government of the Shah. The Metropolitan Museum of Art's publications document its own Nishapur ceramics from those excavations. For half a century after 1945 the site of Nishapur was ransacked to feed the international market demand for early Islamic works of art. Nowadays, the Kohandezh hills reveal the remains from those excavations.

Shadiyakh
Shadiyakh was an important palace in old Nishapur up to the 7th century, and became more important and populated after that. The palace was completely ruined in the 13th century. It was the home of notables such as Farid al-Din Attar, whose tomb is found in Shadiyakh.

Demographics
The major ethnic group in this region are Persians, there are other sizeable communities such as Khorasani Kurds, Khorasani Turks, Turkmens and Khorasani Baloch.

Administrative divisions

The population history and structural changes of Razavi Khorasan Province's administrative divisions over three consecutive censuses are shown in the following table.

Cities
According to the 2016 census, 4,700,924 people (over 73% of the population of Razavi Khorasan Province) live in the following cities:

The following sorted table lists the most populous cities in Razavi Khorasan according to 2016 Census results announced by Statistical Center of Iran. After Mashhad, Nishapur, Sabzevar, and Torbat-e Heydarieh are the most populous cities of the province.

Attractions
This province contains many historical and natural attractions, such as mineral water springs, small lakes, recreational areas, caves and protected regions, and various hiking areas.

Besides these, Khorasan encompasses numerous religious buildings and places of pilgrimage, including the shrine of Imam Reza, Goharshad mosque and many other mausoleums and Imamzadehs which attract visitors to this province.

The Cultural Heritage of Iran lists 1179 sites of historical and cultural significance in all three provinces of Khorasan.

Some of the popular attractions of Khorasan-e Razavi are:

Mashhad

 * Imam Reza Shrine
 * Goharshad Mosque
 * Tomb of Nader Shah
 * Tomb of Khajeh Rabie
 * Tomb of Ferdowsi
 * Haruniyeh Dome

Nishapur

 * Mausoleum of Attar of Nishapur
 * Mausoleum of Omar Khayyám
 * Tomb of Kamal-ol-molk
 * Tomb of Heydar Yaghma
 * Shadiyakh
 * Jameh Mosque of Nishapur

Sabzevar

 * Khosrogerd Minaret
 * Pamenar Mosque, Sabzevar
 * Jameh Mosque of Sabzevar
 * Tomb of Hadi Sabzevari
 * Tomb of Boghrat

Kashmar

 * Arg of Kashmar
 * Tomb of Hassan Modarres
 * Imamzadeh Seyed Morteza
 * Imamzadeh Hamzeh, Kashmar
 * Imamzadeh Mohammad
 * Grave of Pir Quzhd
 * Jameh Mosque of Kashmar
 * Haj Soltan Religious School
 * Haji Jalal Mosque
 * Atashgah Manmade-Cave
 * Atashgah Castle
 * Kohneh Castle, Zendeh Jan
 * Rig Castle
 * Amin al-tojar Caravansarai
 * Talaabad Watermill
 * Yakhchāl of Kashmar

Khalilabad

 * Jameh Mosque of Khalilabad
 * Kondor castle
 * Kondor Ab anbars

Torbat-e Jam

 * Sheikh Ahmad-e Jami mausoleum complex

Gonabad

 * Forud castle
 * Qanats of Gonabad
 * Kūh-Zibad

Sarakhs

 * Ribat-i Sharaf
 * Tomb of Baba Loghman

Bardaskan

 * Tomb of Abdolabad
 * Aliabad Tower
 * Firuzabad Tower
 * Firuzabad area
 * Seyyed Bagher Ab anbar
 * Darone Cave
 * Sir Cave
 * Rahmanniyeh Castle
 * Qal'eh Dokhtar, Khooshab
 * Qal'eh Dokhtar, Doruneh

Bajestan

 * Jameh Mosque of Marandiz

Taybad

 * Abbasabad Complex Taybad
 * Karat Minaret

Rivash

 * Qal'eh Dokhtar, Kuhsorkh
 * Nameq Village
 * Shahi Dam
 * Gabar Hesar castle
 * Baghdasht Peak
 * Band-e Qara Bathhouse
 * Natural Yakhchāl of Band-e Qara

Colleges and universities

 * Asrar Institute of Higher Education
 * Bahar Institute of Higher Education
 * Comprehensive University of Applied and Practical Sciences, Khorasan
 * Ferdowsi University of Mashhad
 * Gonabad University of Medical Sciences
 * Hakim-e Sabzevari University of Sabzevar
 * Imam Reza University
 * Islamic Azad University of Bardaskan
 * Islamic Azad University of Ghoochan
 * Islamic Azad University of Gonabad
 * Islamic Azad University of Mashhad
 * Islamic Azad University of Neishabur
 * Islamic Azad University of Sabzevar
 * Islamic Azad University of Torbat e Jam
 * Islamic Azad University of Torbat Heidariyeh
 * Mashhad University of Medical Sciences
 * Payame Noor University of Bardaskan
 * Payame Noor University of Mashhad
 * Sabzevar University of Medical Sciences
 * Sadjad University of Technology
 * Sport Sciences Research Institute of Iran

title: Razavi Khorasan province


text:
Talk:Tightlacing/Archive 1

As for this piece: ''Current tightlacers usually have a partner, called a trainer, to help and support them. The partner might take on any of the following tasks:

help the tightlacer put on and take off the corset help him or her stick to the training schedule monitor the corset wearer's health monitor body changes and keep a log [1] (http://www.waspcreations.com/tp1.htm) Current tightlacers are often - but not necessarily - in a sexual and/or loving relationship with their trainer.''

I don't really like it, it is like straying off the topic, especially the part about sex... And it is not really neutral. Many tightlacers are single and/or want to do do their corsetting by themselves. At least I know my body best so I want to be the one pulling the laces. And I know many tightlacers that have reached very narrow waist measurements and doing it themselves. The section may remain but by then I want someone to add that there's many single tightlacers (or people in relations but wanting to do themselves).

I'm sorry for not doing it myself, but I feel that my English and my knowledge in this matter is not good enough (I know that I'm bad writing in English, unlike some one here....)

 * I don't think it is straying off the topic; the day-to-day processes and procedures that a lot of tightlacers lay down for themselves (and their trainers) are an intrinsic part of tightlacing. This is especially true when BDSM is a part of that trainer-tightlacer relationship because it adds to the elements of control and submission. Also, many corset wearers have been prompted to start tightlacing by a boyfriend or a husband, or have not pursued their interest in tightlacing until they were in a relationship - see, for example, Ethel Granger, Cathie Jung, Amy of Wasp Creations, and Sylphide. I believe that the majority of tightlacers are part of a partnership - still, I do think it's worth adding something about single tightlacers.

 * - Katherine Shaw 09:41, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)

 * Self Tightlacing see narcissism, but mirrors was commen in advertising of corset.
 * In old days the mother or boarding school support the Tight lacing.
 * Haabet 14:31, 2004 Dec 2 (UTC)

What kind of crap is that? Please have a look at the external link! --KF 11:17, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

from the Tightlacer article:

''A tightlacer is someone (typically a woman) who has a deformed liver by a tight lacing corset, as the waist been between 18 and 13 inches. However, only few people who have have been tightlacers.''

I don't want to sound impatient, but I cannot make head or tail of this nonsense. It's not just the grammar / syntax that drives me crazy. I still can't figure out what exactly a tightlacer is although I can of course roughly imagine. But this is an encyclopaedia, so please let's be precise to all intents and purposes! --KF 16:48, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

from the revised version:

However, only few people have been tightlacers.

--> Does this make any more sense now? What does this mean? That tightlacers belong to a dying ("have been") minority ("only few")? --KF 12:18, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Haabet's debatable additions
Okay, I think the sensible thing to do is to have a debate here on the talk page rather than making a chain of changes and reversions.

I believe the statement we're looking at is: "And the this effect make the lungs bigger, and big lungs give discomfort without corset. Of this cause tightlacers sleep in the corset." I presume that the link to a medical article that Haabet added is supposed to be proof for this.

My observations:

 * 1) The article does not address tightlacing. It only looks at general corset wearing; the largest difference given is four and a half inches, which hardly constitutes 'tight'.
 * 2) Nowhere in the article does it state that corset wearing increases lung capacity; it only concludes that wearing a corset causes an increase in thoracic breathing.
 * 3) Furthermore, the article concludes that wearing a corset reduces overall lung capacity: as the table entitled 'Table Mowing the Effect of Comets on Expansion in Fifty-two Women' (sic) lays out, there is a reduction in lung capacity from 163.21 cubic inches when not wearing a corset to 133.54 cubic inches when wearing a corset.
 * 4) There is no proof offered that "big lungs" cause discomfort.
 * 5) While some tightlacers may find it comfortable to sleep in a corset, the main reason for wearing a corset while asleep is to maintain and further the waist reduction - comfort is a secondary aspect for which I have never come across before. There is no proof offered for this.

I think that's a pretty thorough refutation. Of course, anybody is welcome to refute my refutation. For the next few days I think it would be good manners to avoid changing that portion of the article so that we can hammer this problem out.

- Katherine Shaw 10:32, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)

 * Oh dear. Haabet has been at the article again. However, I'm starting to see that he HAS a position, which has been obscured by his gibberish prose. I thought that he was pro-corset in a strange, obsessed way, but it seems that he's anti-corset. It might be possible to rewrite the article in such a way as to make it more NPOV in his eyes. Zora 20:45, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * The difference between of healthy corset and unhealthy corset is, as the healthy corset press up, and as unhealthy corset press down.
 * Because the body is construct as it can bear a heavy press up by the big belly which the pregnancy.
 * By the pregnancy, the ribs been spread as chest been bigger, as the chest have place to that entrails, which are moved from the waist.

 * By a healthy corset been the top of chest bigger, the more the corset been light laced, like by pregnancy.
 * But, if corset have the same lace, in waist and in chest. The top of the chest cannot grove when waist been light laced, and of this cause have a healthy corset two laces, one light for waist and one loose for the chest.

 * A healthy corsets have need of some base to press up the chest up. By shoulders or, by hip.

 * 1. By shoulder straps, the straps have need to been tighten and inelastically.
 * 2. By hip part of the corset, the corset has need of cover hip too spread the pressure. And have rigid bones in the back and of course a separate hip lace.

 * The corsets of today do not respect this rules and are of those course unhealthy.
 * And the common opinion of Tightlacing is correct: Tightlacing is dangerously.

 * A custom-tailored corset, do not help if the tailor not follow the rules of a healthy corset.

 * You have a possible opinion and I have a negative opinion, but I can argue the negative opinion.

 * Haabet 13:53, 2004 Dec 3 (UTC)

Sigh
What drives me nuts about Haabet is that for someone so obsessive about a subject, he provides NO references whatsoever. Normally someone so obsessive about a subject like this has a whole library for bibliography ... —Morven 23:27, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC) -

Corsets are dangerous but can been harmless.
An ordinary corset will press the front of body down, when the lace been tighten. It is dangerous and damages nearly all organs, except teeth. A healthy corset press the front of body up, when the lace been tighten. It is harmless, because the front of body can be violently press up under the pregnancy. The corset can press the front of body up by a draw over the scolders or a press on the hip. If the corset presses the front of body up by a draw over the scolders, the weft (woof) has need too go from the scolders to the abdomen, and from the scolders to the lower ribs. If the corset presses the front of body up by a draw over hip, the hip part, of corset has need of a separate lace. And the back of, hip part, of corset have need of strengthened back bones, because weft (woof) has need too go from the top of back bones to the abdomen, and from the back bones to the lower ribs.

 * Haabet, your additions make me very frustrated. Firstly, your English is bad and you are careless about spelling and grammar, to the point where it is nearly impossible to understand what you are saying. Your logic is unclear and difficult to follow.

 * Secondly, where is your evidence? I need to be able to find PROOF PROOF PROOF PROOF PROOF.

 * Add these two things together, and they make your statements above absolute nonsense - although, from what I can decipher, they are illogical and nonsensical anyway.

 * When a corset is tightly laced, there will be little difference whether the front of the body is pressed up or down: the important factor is the compression, which forces organs to shift (and I personally suspect that how the organs shift is very much dependent on the individual).

 * There is no proof that the corset damages "nearly all organs" (how does the corset affect the brain, exactly?) - in fact, Valerie Steel (in The Corset: A Social History) offers medical evidence that the corset does not damage internal organs. In some rare cases, extreme tightlacing may cause the liver to develop an extra lobe and the pelvic floor muscles to weaken: but these two things do not constitute organ damage.

 * - Katherine Shaw 10:47, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)

http://haabet.dk/patent/848479/index.html http://haabet.dk/patent/903073/index.html

 * I presume these patents are supposed to be proof for your statements. It does not prove anything: to be registered, a patent does not have to be verified or researched in any way. All it proves is that somebody had an idea that they thought would work, and that they had the time, money and tenacity to register that idea as a patent.

 * The first patent claims to be a large number of things; it does not claim to be a corset. In fact, it distinctly states that it is NOT a corset: it is only a "corset-like garment".

 * The second patent is not really for a corset at all: it is for a shoulder brace. As the patent itself says "its object is to provide certain new and useful improvements in shoulder braces, tending to hold the body view the wearer in proper position, with a view to insure an upright, healthy carriage..." While the design is based on a waist cincher style of corset, nothing of waist reduction is mentioned (let alone tightlacing - which is what this article is about, please remember! - or 'healthy' corsets, which subject you are so obssessively pursuing in inappropriate places).

 * And I restate that none of the information in these patents can really be verified: they claim to do many things - whether they actually do them I doubt very much.

 * - Katherine Shaw 10:47, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)

Do any make healthy corsets, today?! Nobody!

 * It is entirely irrelevant to this article whether any corsets made today are 'healthy'. Besides, you are not the final authority on what consitutes a 'healthy' corset. You have no evidence for your statements, and your original research is neither published nor peer reviewed, therefore the information that you are currently contributing to the Wikipedia is invalid.

 * - Katherine Shaw 10:47, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)

versatile_fashions
Date: Fri Nov 12, 2004  8:23 pm Subject:  Corsets and Sex

ADVERTISEMENT

Thank you to all of you who have written and requested more information about how a corset might enhance the sexual experience. Instead of answering you all individually, I will post a message here so all may enjoy.

First there is the sensation for the wearer of being bound up tightly. Many women report this is the ultimate aphrodisiac. This in itself can be great foreplay, slowing down the process and creating a magnificent visual for the eyes. The wearer becomes the center of attention as her female delights are enhanced and amplified. She will feel a rush of blood to her head creating an enhanced sense of awareness.

Some prefer to keep their corset on during sex as they find it pushes blood to the head and genitals, the two main sex organs. It also creates shallower breathing which can create more powerful orgasms.

Others have their lover(s) remove the corset which not only gives a sense of release but causes the blood to rush to the skin creating an over-all "body rush". The sensation of being touched becomes greatly enhanced and the skin tingles and glows warm.

So now you know why the corset is still around after 4000 years. For the sexual adventurer, it will take you to sensual dimensions you have not yet experienced!

Of course there is no reason that a corset cannot be worn by a man. Many men have discovered the pleasures of the corset and wear one regularly. The extra protection for the back is especially helpful to those who have had injuries in that area. - when the body been glows warm. The blod came from the liver. The corset press the liver as the booddisappear.

The blod in feminine genitals came from the uterus. Haabet 10:58, 2004 Nov 23 (UTC)

 * What is this supposed to prove? Where did this 'advertisement' come from? Several of the claims made in it seem highly contentious - particularly that removing the corset is a good idea because of the "body rush"; many (probably the majority) of tightlacers know the importance of loosening a tightly-laced corset gradually and slowly to prevent discomfort and faintness.

 * You write about the blood as if it stays in one place, is moved around by compression when wearing a corset, and then rushes around as soon as it can! How ridiculous! If nothing else, blood carried to certain organs (the liver or the uterus, to take your examples), and is then returned to the heart - it doesn't make a full round of all the organs. (The exception, I believe, is the portal vein, which moves blood from some parts of the digestive system to the liver - which then returns to the heart).

 * Haabet, most of the time you post utter rubbish: illogical, ill-conceived rubbish that's difficult to understand and that you haven't thought out properly - so often you'll say one thing, retract it when challenged, and then post something different buy equally idiotic! If you have good points to make, you are stopping people from understanding them by your own methods.

 * - (frustrated) Katherine Shaw 10:47, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)

I am sorry about your frustrating, but I have need of some informations, the article say: "Modern research into corset wearing and the study of modern day extreme tightlacers has demonstrated that gradual training poses no risk to health"

I do know two Tightlacers. The one stop by Tightlacing by intense pain, but after two years by discomfort she had need to start by tightlacing again. (fracture in ribs, enlargement of lungs) The another tightlacer had problem by indigestion.

I will like to help they, and have need of your Modern research.

 * I am sorry to hear that some people you know have injured themselves through tightlacing. However, I stand by what I wrote, and I stress that it is gradual tightlacing that is safe. Perhaps some more information on what "gradual" tightlacing means would be appropriate, something along the lines of:

 * A safe training routine starts with the use of a well-fitted corset (most serious tightlacers have at least one custom-tailored corset) and very gradual decreases in the waist circumference - it will take a tightlacer at least eight months (and possibly up to eighteen) to acheive reductions of more than a few inches. Attempting large reductions in waist circumference before properly accustomed to the torso constriction can cause extreme discomfort, and possibly difficulties with indigestion and respiration.

 * It's not really appropriate to discuss your acquaintances' problems here. The Wikipedia is not here to help them (and other tightlacers in difficulty) by allowing you to publish your original research. I don't mean to be callous, but that's the way it is!

 * - Katherine Shaw 10:45, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)

List of problems in the article

 * In the victorian period it was only a small upper-class who practice the tightlacing. It is not in the article.
 * In the Edwardian time was tightlacing more commen as in victorian period. It is not in the article.
 * 24/7slaves like corset because it is oppressed women. It is not in the article.
 * The tightlacing is two Body modification.
 * 1. raised chest, as the waist been longer and higher. It is not in the article.
 * 2. stretch of back musculature as the waist been more round, and have smaller circumference. It is not in the article.

 * By pregnancy the press from the abdomen open the edge of the lungs, for better respiration. Some corset, shoulder brace, stays and corset by shoulder brace, can give the samme press, of this cause better respiration. But many other corsets press opposite. It is not in the article.

Haabet 14:03, 2004 Nov 26 (UTC)

 * To answer you point by point:
 * There is no statistical evidence about who tightlaced in the nineteenth century. Your assertion that upper-class women were the majority of tightlacers is based on three assumptions, I think:
 * That upper-class women were more likely to follow fashion (because they had the time and the money to do so);
 * That the extremely small waist shown in contemporary fashion plates was the desire of every woman who considered herself fashionable;
 * That every woman who considered herself fashionable and could tightlace did in fact tightlace.

 * I don't agree with any of these assumptions, for the following reasons:
 * Fashion can be an important tool to construct identity for women of all classes, and I would say that for some groups of working-class women it might be the most important tool as it is the closest to the body (and hence the most likely to speak about identity) - unlike some other things, like social status (which is dependent on money, and is therefore less stable because of the lower clases often precarious financial position), or homes (not portable or easily adapted);
 * There is plenty of evidence that an extremely small waist was considered vulgar, even amongst the fashionable, just as super-skinny celebrities are criticised today;
 * Tightlacing is a long-term training regime that requires a determined personality and a fair bit of endurance - not every woman has the right character for tightlacing, I think - and while many nineteenth century women did lace themselves tight (going tighter for special occasions) this is not the same as the 'reduce reduce reduce' programme of tightlacing.
 * I have patents which speech about tight lacing of natural waists. I think the article have need of a historical part.

Haabet 20:42, 2004 Nov 30 (UTC)

 * A patent is not strong evidence for a widespread practice. A patent is one person's idea. Now, if you could show that a patent went into production, was advertised, and was bought by a significant number of women, then that would be proof that tightlacing was widespread and accepted practice. However, I stress again that a patent proves very, very little.

 * I agree that a historical perspective on tightlacing would improve the article. The problem is that it is not clear what would have been considered tightlacing in the nineteenth century. In a time when wearing corsets from a relatively young age (the early teens) was nearly universal for women, what would have been deemed tightly laced, and what would have been normal?

 * Today tightlacing is nearly always associated with BDSM; that was hardly the case for the Victorians and Edwardians. Staylace.com's resident doctor reckons that tightlacing is about "enhancing" body shape so that the natural woman's waist-to-hip ratio is reduced from the natural average of around 70% to under 60%.

 * I was wondering what kind of sizes and reduction this would represent for the average Victorian/Edwardian woman - particularly in relation to the nineteen inch corsets of which girls were reported to have boasted. I haven't been able to find any reliable data about average body size in the nineteenth century; the earliest reliable figures are for the 1950s, which would probably be a bit larger than the average Victorian woman. Anyway, using the 1950s measurements (27.5 inch waist and 39 inch hips), a 23 inch waist would give an enhanced shape, and a waist to hip ratio of under 60%. That's a reduction of only 4.5 inches, and considering that for modern women considering buying a corset they are advised to buy one with a waist measurement four inches less than their natural waist measurement, 4 inches hardly seems to qualify as tightlacing. A 4 inch reduction is relatively easy to get used to, and can be achieved even when a corset is worn only occasionally. On the other hand, the two most famous tightlacers, Cathie Jung and Ethel Granger, achieved reductions of 10.5 and 10 inches respectively - they are definitely tightlacers. So it seems reasonable to say that tightlacing means a reduction of more than 6 inches. For the average 1950s woman, this would give a waist of 20.5 inches - and given that corsets were not always laced closed, she could wear a 19 inch corset with a 1.5 inch gap at the back. (Somebody has pointed out that corsets' waist measurements were always given for when the garment was laced closed, so a 19 inch corset does not necessarily mean a wearer with a 19 inch waist!)

 * Of course, that's my modern perspective (and is guesswork and rough estimations). Nineteenth century women, used to wearing corsets, might have generally tolerated greater reductions because they were used to the corset.

 * In short, my point is that even though small waist measurements and small corsets are often reported, these are not reliable, and can be misleading, particularly when you consider that women were smaller in the nineteenth century. Nobody, as far as I know, has come to any reasonable conclusions about tightlacing in the nineteenth century. And you must remember that you are assuming that all corset wearers were tightlacers!

 * In light of this, I think a good historical summary might run along the lines of:

 * Tightlacing has its roots in the nineteenth century, when improvements in technology allowed the mass manufacture of corsets that were stronger than ever before. The Victorian and Edwardian ideal of female beauty emphasised a small waist, and it was widely accepted that corsets were used to reduce the size of the natural waist. However, it is important to note that although some nineteenth century women had waist measurements that today's tightlacers would envy, they cannot easily be classified as tightlacers. Firstly, women's bodies have increased in size since the nineteenth century, so waist measurements that seem small today might not have been considered so by Victorians. Secondly, as corset wearing was the norm in the nineteenth century it is possible that women tolerated proportionally greater reductions as a matter of course, without thinking of themselves as tightlacers. There were also factors that put women off tightlacing. Medical reports and rumours claimed that tightlacing was fatally detrimental to health, which it was not. Women with small waists were condemned for their vanity and being slaves to fashion, and it was frequently claimed that too small a waist was actually ugly, rather than beautiful.

 * - Katherine Shaw 12:45, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

 * http://haabet.dk/patent/GB191207474/
 * http://haabet.dk/patent/433095/index.html
 * If you look at those patents. They more think on expand the chest by Tightlacing, only a little on the waist. If you expand the chest, you get a new thinly waist over the natural waist. Becorse the distance between chest and hip been longer.
 * In the eighteen-hundreds the doctors have big problems because they do not know the cause of many diseases. They justify they by by saying that: cause was the corset. And some time it was correct, because a healthy corset have need of shoulderstraps or a long hip-part; or the chest prees the abdomen down.

 * Again, you offer patents as proof. Tell me why I should believe anything that a patent claims. Remember that the straight-fronted corset was claimed to be the healthiest style of corset ever made, and was patented as such - and then went on to cause more discomfort than any other corset! Until you can demonstrate that each patent works, I will not believe that they do. I have already explained why I do not believe patents are proof of anything; until you can persuade me otherwise, we're just going to keep going around in circles. I'm not even going to debate your statements, because there is not point until you offer proof other than patents.

 * - Katherine Shaw 09:41, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)

 * It is arguable that more women did lace tight in the Edwardian period - certainly the design, construction and materials for corsets had developed to allow even greater waist reductions, and the fashions seemed to demand smaller waists - but again, without statistical evidence it's just speculation.
 * The article only say: The Victorian period, and any thing about the Edwardian period.

 * Ah, but you said above that "In the Edwardian time was tightlacing more commen as in victorian period."

 * - Katherine Shaw 12:45, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

 * Tightlacers are not necesarily oppressed, and many tighlacers would actually be offended by this assumption. Corseting can give the wearer the sense that she is controlling her body, shaping her identity, and taking charge of her sexuality - it is a very proactive thing, and not something that could easily be forced upon somebody today. Of course, if a women feels compelled to wear a corset, for whatever reason or by whoever, that can be oppressive. And what do you have to say about male tightlacers like Mr Pearl? Is he oppressed, like female tightlacers?

 * The kind of body modifications that a corset will effect are dependent very much on the design, so it's difficult to say what changes tightlacing will have specifically on the body. I'm particularly unsure about tightlacing causing a "round waist", as this would require a corset to put more pressure on the sides of the waist, instead of equal pressure all round, to pop it out of its natural oval shape - I can't think how this would be done.
 * The corset have the samme ressure all round the body, but in sides all pressure are on inch and in back and in the front all the pressure is scattered. Haabet 20:42, 2004 Nov 30 (UTC)

 * I'm not quite sure what you mean here. It's illogical that a corset could apply equal pressure all around (as you say), but for that pressure to act on the sides more than on the front or the back of the torso.

 * - Katherine Shaw 12:45, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

 * I don't know what you mean about "pressing" the edge of the lungs to get better respiration; can you give a reference so that I can cheack on this?
 * - Katherine Shaw 10:45, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)

You say: I don't know what you mean about "pressing" [up of] the edge of the lungs to get better respiration; can you give a reference so that I can cheack on this? It is general knowledge, ask your librarian: "How did a pregnant survived by compressed lungs?" http://www.staylace.com/textarea/10things.htm ''Things I don't like about wearing a corset: A little ache around the ribs if the corset has been laced a little too tightly in the upper portions.'' If the top of lace press in, the edge of the lungs the respiration been poor. Haabet 20:42, 2004 Nov 30 (UTC)

 * What I did not understand was your designation of "the edge of the lungs" - I suppose you mean the pressure under the lungs pressing them upwards and causing an increase in thoracic breathing?

 * - Katherine Shaw 12:45, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

 * the under edge of the lungs, are under the ribs, and the ribs been press up of the corset, if the corset is correctly.
 * You can have a thoracic breathing, without the open the under edge of the lungs. Only by a correct corset and by pregnancy the under edge of the lungs been open.

 * The sentence "If the top of lace press in, the edge of the lungs the respiration been poor" makes absolutely no sense - it's your bad English coming in again.

 * - Katherine Shaw 12:45, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

 * If the top of lace press the long ribs in, the under edge of the lungs been closed, and the respiration been poor.
 * Haabet 15:01, 2004 Dec 1 (UTC)

 * This is just your theory, supported by patents (which are no proof at all) - it is your original research. I'm not going to bother to argue about this unless you give me something concrete to go on.

 * - Katherine Shaw 09:41, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)

 * The normally theory is: the Tight lacing is harmful because it block the abdominal breathing.
 * Me theory is: If the corset press low on the chest, the corset improve the thoracic breathing.
 * You have right Wikipedia can only say: Tightlacing is harmful, cruel, oppressed the woman.
 * Haabet 14:31, 2004 Dec 2 (UTC)

 * It's nice that you're agreeing with me, but, er, it's only an opinion that "Tightlacing is harmful, cruel, oppressed the woman" - and one that I must disagree with! (I've debated those points above.)

 * - Katherine Shaw 15:15, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)

Can Haabet argue?
Haabet said:

"You have a possible opinion and I have a negative opinion, but I can argue the negative opinion."

Haabet, you can't argue properly when you can't write English!

The problem with your arguments is that you have NO contemporary references, not one. You keep bringing up 100-year-old medical opinions, from the height of the anti-corset movement, as if they were contemporary. But at the present time, only a tiny sub-culture of enthusiasts practices tight-lacing. No one is upset about it, no one is worried about it, no one is crusading against it -- except you. Because of personal experiences, which we cannot properly evaluate. We don't know if your friends were proceeding with all due caution or if they were breaking all the safety rules.

Now it might very well be a good idea to have more in Wikipedia about the dress reform and anti-corset movement. I keep meaning to write the article. Perhaps also more in the tightlacing article about the anti-corset movement. But we really can't say that there's a contemporary anti-corset movement if it consists of one guy from Denmark who writes in fractured English. Zora 21:02, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

title: Talk:Tightlacing/Archive 1


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anti bush

Anti bush was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE

Ad for someone's blog. --MarkSweep 09:26, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Just another LiveJournal community. [[User:Livajo|Ливай | ☺]] 09:28, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Yet another website. - Andre Engels 10:19, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Just one of the many websites on the net. [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|(talk)]] 10:28, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Spam. --Gene s 12:11, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete as spam. Wyss 23:30, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete Although I believe a lot better article can be written on the same topic (I believe 'Time magazine cover' also kind of covered it with hate him and love him), in its current form its is mere spam with little hope (if any) for cleanup Zain 10:34, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Delete—Trevor Caira 02:45, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
Roose Bolton

Roose Bolton is a fictional character in the A Song of Ice and Fire series of fantasy novels by American author George R. R. Martin, and its HBO television adaptation Game of Thrones, where he is depicted by actor Michael McElhatton.

Introduced in 1996's A Game of Thrones, Roose is lord of House Bolton, the second most powerful Northern house behind the Starks. The Boltons are notorious for their cruelty and custom of flaying their enemies. He also appears in A Clash of Kings (1998), A Storm of Swords (2000), and A Dance with Dragons (2011).

Roose joins Robb Stark's rebellion as one of his chief lieutenants. However, he secretly orchestrates the Red Wedding alongside Lord Tywin Lannister and Lord Walder Frey, receiving the title of Warden of the North and dominion over the Northern kingdom after personally murdering Robb. His rule is punctuated by unrest and several forces conspire to unseat him.

Description
At the beginning of A Game of Thrones, Roose is a bannerman of Lord Eddard Stark whose seat is at the Dreadfort. He is known as the Leech Lord due to regular leechings meant to improve his health. He served House Stark in Robert's Rebellion and the Greyjoy Rebellion.

Roose is often described as an unassuming-looking man, ageless, clean-shaven with pallid skin, with an apathetic demeanor. His most prominent feature are his strangely pale and cold eyes, so light as to almost blend with the sclera. He is described as mild-mannered, but also remorseless and unforgiving. While his voice is small and soft, he does not need to raise it in order to inspire silence and attention; Ser Jaime Lannister and Robb Stark both remark that even just his silence is threatening. His personal motto is "A peaceful land, a quiet people". He often dresses in a pale pink fur cloak embroidered in blood red to symbolize his family's custom of flaying.

Roose illicitly practices the ancient and banned tradition of the first night, in which a lord has the right to have sexual intercourse with female subjects on their wedding night. This practice resulted in the birth of his bastard son, Ramsay. He ordered his depraved servant Reek to help raise the child. Roose had only one trueborn son, Domeric, and Roose suspects that Ramsay poisoned Domeric to become his heir. Left without a trueborn heir, Roose brings Ramsay to the Dreadfort to serve as the castellan.

Novels
Roose is not a point of view character in the novels, so his actions are witnessed and interpreted through the eyes of other people, such as Catelyn Stark, Arya Stark and Theon Greyjoy.

A Game of Thrones
Roose answers Robb Stark's call to arms in his campaign against the Iron Throne and House Lannister. Robb gives Roose command of part of the Northern army when the host splits up at The Twins, and he leads the attack on Tywin Lannister's forces in the Battle of the Green Fork. The battle ends in a Lannister victory and Roose retreats with the survivors to the causeway of Moat Cailin. However, Roose's defeat allows Robb to secure a larger victory and to capture Jaime Lannister.

A Clash of Kings
To form an alliance with House Frey, Roose is offered by Lord Walder Frey one of his female family members hand in marriage, as well as offering the prospective bride's weight in silver for her dowry. Roose chooses Walda Frey, the fattest female of House Frey. He also makes an alliance with the Brave Companions, Essosi mercenaries originally employed by Tywin, to help the Northerners capture Harrenhal from the Lannister force occupying it. After capturing Harrenhal, Roose takes Arya Stark as a servant, mistaking her for a commoner.

A Storm of Swords
While at Harrenhal, Roose works to weaken Robb's position, sending the Northern army on suicidal missions. Vargo Hoat brings Jaime Lannister to Harrenhal, having cut off Jaime's hand in hope of blaming Roose and preventing the Boltons from allying with the Lannisters. Roose has Jaime sent back to King's Landing after Jaime assures Roose that he will not blame him. Roose then travels to The Twins for Edmure Tully's wedding to Roslin Frey. At the wedding, the Freys betray the Starks and Roose personally murders Robb with a knife through the heart. It is revealed that Roose had conspired with the Freys and Tywin Lannister to betray the Starks. As reward for his service, Tywin names Roose the new Warden of the North

A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons
Roose returns to the North with his forces, joined by two thousand Frey men. Meeting with Ramsay (now legitimised as a Bolton) and a captive Theon Greyjoy, the Boltons travel to Barrowton for Ramsay's wedding to Jeyne Poole, forced to assume the identity of Arya Stark. After hearing that Stannis Baratheon has captured Deepwood Motte, Roose decides to move the wedding to Winterfell to bait Stannis out. The Boltons and their Northern allies (many of whom are only grudgingly pledging fealty to the Boltons, or plan to betray them) remain at Winterfell after the wedding in anticipation of Stannis' attack. Tensions are high during the wedding due to the anger of the Northmen at the Freys. Three of the Freys who had been travelling with Lord Wyman Manderly of White Harbor, who lost his younger son Ser Wendel Manderly at the Red Wedding, have disappeared, and are heavily implied to have been put in pies which Wyman gives to the Freys and Boltons, eating some himself. Lady Barbrey Dustin of Barrowton, the younger sister of Bethany Ryswell, tells Theon that Roose has no feelings and plays with people for amusement. She also insinuates that Roose hopes to become King in the North, not just Warden, because the Lannisters are weakened. When one of Walder Frey's grandsons, Little Walder Frey, is found murdered, their uncle Ser Hosteen Frey attacks Wyman, leading to a fight in which White Harbor and Frey men are killed. Roose is forced to send them both out of Winterfell to encounter Stannis, in order to weaken both Frey's and Manderly's armies.

Family tree of House Bolton

 * Notes

TV adaptation
Roose Bolton is played by Michael McElhatton in the HBO television adaption of the series of books. He and the rest of the cast were nominated for Screen Actors Guild Awards for Outstanding Performance by an Ensemble in a Drama Series in 2014.

Second season
Roose declares for King in the North Robb Stark and serves as a chief member of his war council. After the Battle of Oxcross, Robb admonishes Roose when he advocates flaying Lannister prisoners to obtain information. After Theon Greyjoy betrays the Starks and seizes Winterfell, Roose brings the news to Robb and offers to send his bastard son Ramsay Snow with a force of Dreadfort men to oust Theon and the Ironborn from Winterfell.

Third season
Following the Northern army's arrival at Harrenhal, Roose presents a letter from Ramsay claiming that the Ironborn sacked Winterfell before fleeing. Robb orders Roose and the Bolton forces to hold Harrenhal while the rest of his army rides to Riverunn. One of Roose's men-at-arms, Locke, captures the escaped Jaime Lannister and his escort Brienne of Tarth, cutting off Jaime's hand in the process, before bringing the two to Harrenhal. Roose agrees to free Jaime, but keeps Brienne as a hostage; though Jaime later returns to secure her release. Roose travels to The Twins for the wedding of Edmure Tully and Roslin Frey. However, it is revealed that Roose has conspired with Lord Walder Frey to betray the Starks, and at the wedding the Freys and Bolton slaughter the Stark forces, with Roose personally killing Robb. As part of the Bolton-Frey alliance, Roose agrees to marry Walder's daughter Walda - Walder offers him the bride's weight in silver as dowry, so Roose decides to marry the fattest of Walder's daughters. In the aftermath of the massacre, Roose reveals that Winterfell was actually sacked by his bastard Ramsay, who subsequently flayed the Ironborn garrison there and took Theon prisoner. As reward for his defection, Tywin Lannister names Roose the Warden of the North.

Fourth season
With the Ironborn holding Moat Cailin - the fortification barring passage between the North and the rest of Westeros - Roose is forced to smuggle himself back into the North. Upon his return to the Dreadfort, he chastises Ramsay for having gelded Theon and sending terms of surrender to the Greyjoys without his approval, while reminding Ramsay of his bastard parentage. Insulted, Ramsay demonstrates how effectively he has broken Theon (whom he has since renamed "Reek") by having Reek shave him, even after revealing Roose's murder of Robb, while also coaxing Reek into revealing he faked the deaths of Bran Stark and Rickon Stark. After Ramsay points out that the other Northerners will turn on the Boltons if it is revealed that there is a living male Stark, Roose tasks Locke with hunting down Bran and Rickon and to kill Jon Snow, Robb's bastard half-brother. Roose also sends Ramsay and Reek to lift the siege of Moat Cailin; when Ramsay is successful, Roose presents him with a royal decree of legitimization as a trueborn Bolton. Roose subsequently moves to rebuild and occupy Winterfell.

Fifth season
In the aftermath of Tywin Lannister's death and Ramsay's murder of a disobedient vassal and his family, Roose seeks to secure House Bolton's position by arranging to have Ramsay marry Sansa Stark. In doing so, Roose seemingly secures an alliance with the forces of The Vale and its Lord Protector Petyr Baelish. After Ramsay torments Sansa by having Reek serve them at dinner, Roose announces that he and Walda are expecting a son. However, later Roose privately reassures Ramsay of his position as his heir, and asks him to assist in defeating Stannis Baratheon's army. To this end, Roose permits Ramsay and his men to launch a sneak attack on Stannis' camp, destroying the army's supplies. With the supplies destroyed and most of Stannis' army subsequently deserting him, the Boltons easily defeat Stannis's army when they attempt to lay siege to Winterfell, but in the aftermath of the battle, Theon Greyjoy and Sansa manage to escape, severely jeopardizing House Bolton's rule in the North.

Sixth season
Despite their victory over Stannis, Roose warns Ramsay that the North will someday have to face the Lannisters, and chastises him for allowing Sansa and Theon to escape, as Sansa was crucial to unifying the North. He implies that if Sansa is not recovered, Ramsay's position as heir may be usurped by Walda's baby. Soon afterwards, it is announced that Walda has given birth to a boy; Ramsay immediately kills Roose by stabbing him in the stomach, before setting his dogs upon Walda and the baby, leaving Ramsay as the last remaining Bolton. Ramsay is ultimately killed when Jon Snow retakes Winterfell in the Battle of the Bastards, leaving House Bolton extinct.

title: Roose Bolton


text:
Talk:Tightlacing/Archive 2

Stopping by corset.
If you stop by corset, your have some problems by your breathing and have risk of lumbago.

Breathing problem.
I people from the mountain move to the lowlands, they have breathing problem, because they have train the thoracic breathing. Opera singer and feminine athletes have corresponding problem. A woman who has a good thoracic breathing in corset, will have corresponding breathing problem without corset.

Risk of lumbago.
The joints in spinal column, have need of some fresh oxidized blood, two time every day, or the joints been stiffed. If the corset are rigid or tightlacer not train every day, she have a risk of lumbago, if she go without corset.

 * How many times do we have to say that we need proof?! Haabet, you provide no proof. You make a series of statements which seem dubious. The only way to persuade Zora and me that you are correct is to provide some references - to valid modern sources, such as medical textbooks, encyclopedias, something that we can trust and believe.

 * Anybody can make statements and have them follow an internal logic - that does not make them true. For example, "The first man on the moon planted a U.S. flag there, effectively claiming the moon for America. As the moon is made of green cheese - a product unheard of on earth - the U.S. government is sitting on an unrealised fortune of billions of dollars: selling contracts to mine green moon cheese and transport it back to earth would make the richest country in the world even richer."

 * See? It's easy to make stuff up! Now, I'm not saying that you're making things up - but because your English is difficult to follow and because we cannot check on your facts, we cannot believe a lot of what you write. It is not up to us to find sources that support your arguments, it is up to you to provide us with your sources. Where do you get your information from?

 * Imagine how it would look if a respected university professor claimed to have found a theory that demonstrates cold fusion - he wrote a paper and published it on the internet. He does not refer to any modern sources, to the work of any of his peers, he only refers to a book that was published in 1847 - and many of the so-called scientific theories in this book have been disproven since the book's publication. Are the professor's fellow scientists going to respect him for discovering this? No, they're not going to believe him, and they're probably going to think that he's barking mad. Are power companies going to offer the professor billions of dollars to share his secret? Not without lots and lots of proof!

 * You do yourself and your theories a disservice, Haabet, by not giving us supporting evidence. And you're driving us absolutely crazy. If you cannot give us proof, then I suggest that your time would be better spent researching and finding it, rather than fruitlessly arguing about things here/

 * - Katherine Shaw 11:27, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)

dear Katherine can you came by any serious source when say as Tightlacing is safe and not speak about corset from the two small approved corsetrys: C&S Corsetry and Wasp Creations Corsetry?

In 1855 a doctor say: "the modern corset, moderately tightened, is without appreciable influence on the health of the healthy woman"

In 1887 a doctor say: "The liver may be displaced upward or downward according as the pressure is applied below or above. The precise situation where the pressure is applied will vary with the prevailing fashion of dress; but most commonly in this country the displacement is downward." I know as displaced upward is the correct. It was a change in the health of corset from 1855 to 1887. But many corsets today are of the unhealthy type from 1887. And your are a sadist who would like make damage on woman, and never tell about how important, it is to get the corset from a approved corsetry.

Haabet 12:54, 2004 Dec 9 (UTC)

 * I wanted to thank you for the personal slur (a "sadist", am I? well, I've learnt something about myself today), and to correct you. You say that I "never tell about how important, it is to get the corset from a approved corsetry." Why, then, would I add information about tightlacers using "a well-fitted corset (most serious tightlacers have at least one custom-tailored corset)"? The last thing I want is for somebody to be injured by wearing a corset.

 * There is precious little admissible evidence on the medical effects of tightlacing, which is why I've always been so keen to know your sources. I'll see what I can dig out to support myself this evening. Perhaps there should be some more information on the discomfort and effects of tightlacing - I do try to be gracious when I might be wrong, but you make it very difficult when you tell me I'm wrong and never offer any EVIDENCE. (And you make me feel like I'm always repeating myself.)

 * - Katherine Shaw 16:06, Dec 9, 2004 (UTC)

Tightlacing on VfD
Give me a chance to get to my bookshelf before you go accusing me of original research and listing this page for deletion, why don't you Haabet?

I think that the best source reliable source for information on the medical effects of tightlacing is Valerie Steele's book The Corset: A Cultural History (which is now listed in the article as a reference). She's a well-respected fashion historian and worked extensively with a doctor, Lynn Kutsche, on the effects of corset-wearing. They refute Victorian medical claims that the corset caused scoliosis, tuberculosis, congestion of the blood, that it 'cut' the liver in two - in fact, just about every medical charge made against the corset.

In the interests of being NPOV, they do note that wearing a corset laced too tight can have some temporary adverse effects - not fatal ones - which include indigestion (some tightlacers also say that wind can be a problem!), shortness of breath and consequent faintness. The worst corsets are straight-fronted ones, which were worn around the turn of the century, which could cause lower back-pain because of the extreme curve created there, and they say that it is possible (although not proven) that the pressure exerted by the busk could aggravate an existing problem and contribute towards a prolapsed uterus. Note that none of these problems are fatal!

As Steel writes, no reasonable person today believes Victorian claims that masturbation caused blindness and insanity; we have no good reason to believe Victorian claims that corsets caused tuberculosis and liver disease!

- Katherine Shaw 10:24, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)

 * Haabet, I stayed up till 3 in the morning to start the Victorian dress reform. There is a section in there on tightlacing, which I haven't finished. I will add various anti-corset quotes to that section. If necessary, we can expand that section into a breakout article. Since you seem to take your medical opinions from the older materials, perhaps that will be satisfactory? Zora 23:02, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

No, if you write anti-corset quotes from that era, you have need too tell, why they say like that. and if they have right, why people do wrong thing of that ara.

maybe it is an idea by two articles. One by Tightlacing up, and one by Tightlacing down. anatomical and healthy they are various. Haabet 19:49, 2004 Dec 10 (UTC)

Haabet, wants a response
Haabet, you say you want a response, but there is NO WAY to respond to you. You keep posting the same 100-year-old pictures. I can put some of them in the dress reform article. But they don't prove anything. These are the same doctors who thought masturbation caused blindness and insanity. Searching by myself, I found links to one contemporary book and one contemporary letter from a nurse to the British medical journal decrying tightlacing. I can add those to the tightlacing article. But if you can't speak English and suggest sensible, grammatical additions to the article, we can't process any of your input. It's incoherent. Zora 05:13, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Corset is a 100-year-old technique. And all corsetrys today use a 100-year-old principles.
 * And more a 90% of all corset sold today, is the Narrow chest type.
 * Any corset today is the best corset from the patents.
 * Haabet 07:30, 2004 Dec 12 (UTC)

title: Talk:Tightlacing/Archive 2


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of words having different meanings in British and American English, including minority usages

List of words having different meanings in British and American English, including minority usages was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was DELETE

This is a very recent fork from the almost equally wordy List of words having different meanings in British and American English. Upon encountering a British dialect word which was clearly marked as such in accordance with the conventions of that article (syrup as cockney rhyming slang for wig), somebody apparently threw up his hands in horror and decided to banish all such words to a near-duplicate article. This probably isn't The Right Way To Do These Things, hence the VfD. The maintenance problems caused by having duplicate lists would be a bigger problem than the problem of having a few dialect words on the main list. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 09:27, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Delete, but preserve any new content. Agree with Tony Sidaway that having two almost identical articles around would be a maintenance nightmare. Almost nominated this one myself, but couldn't quite determine how it differed from the existing article. (Is there a way to diff two distinct articles, short of pasting one into the other, diffing the two revisions, and then reverting?) --MarkSweep 09:35, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * The split was created after the addition of the word "syrup" with the meaning "wig". I believe that all the other words on the list are understood by a majority of native British English speakers (e.g. lift for elevator), whereas out of five British speakers commenting three had never heard of this usage (There is some dispute with a user claiming that it is a common British word). If this word is added, then all words from Cockney rhyming slang, Scots language, etc. would also be eligible. Since many of these words are as different from the majority UK usage as the US usage I did not believe they should be here. The word was removed and a Requests_for_comment raised, but then it was re-added without waiting for a consensus. I would only support the removal of the new page if it is restricted to words that would be understood by a majority of British English speakers (UK meaning) and a majority of US users for US meanings. Possibly links to regional language pages should be included at the bottom. Even though the pages are similar at the moment, once minority usages are added the second page will contain many times as many entries as the first. -- Chris Q 09:40, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * BINGO!!! The solution to the problem is staring you in the face.  Just pop some links to dialect pages at the top of that page and everything will be hunky dory! --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 10:07, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I agree. Link to dialect pages.  (Is that a recognised vote?)  P Ingerson 11:18, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. As long as words are clearly marked as dialect, slang or whatever then there is no confusion and no problem with the original list. Two lists will make maintenance impossible and will reduce usability considerably. -- Necrothesp 10:47, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Agree with Tony Sidaway, MarkSweep, and Necrothesp -- WLD 11:56, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. It's too cumbersome to maintain two lists, making people put new entries on both lists when they're not minority usage, and moving minority usages to this list when they show up on the other list, and adding content to one list when someone forgets to add it to both lists, etc. It would certainly be a lot harder than just marking the minority usages on one list. [[User:Livajo|Ливай | ☺]] 12:46, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Or redir to List of words having different meanings in British and American English Niteowlneils 16:43, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete, lame idea. Wyss 23:30, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete, but merge content into original page. Icundell 14:54, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete, we seem to have an upsurge in people thinking they can just make their own seperate copy of an article after the main article doesn't work out as they'd like. Shane King 00:43, Dec 20, 2004 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text: User talk:68.148.24.113

title: User talk:68.148.24.113


text:
User:LinkBot/suggestions/Abu Dhabi

An automated Wikipedia link suggester has suggested 1 possible wiki link and 7 possible backlinks for the Abu_Dhabi article:

— LinkBot 09:30, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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title: User:LinkBot/suggestions/Abu Dhabi