text:
Talk:Steubenville, Ohio

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• Sbmeirow  •  Talk  •  13:31, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
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The Steubenville rape case
Is it not a bit odd that something as inconsequential as the city's traffic cameras warrant extensive coverage in the article, but mere mention of one of the most major rape cases in recent history (that has made worldwide news due to the involvement of Anonymous and it's relevance as a rape that was tweeted etc.) is consistently deleted as "vandalism". Bias? 196.209.236.68 (talk) 13:57, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The page has been semi-protected. If you have something to add or remove at this point you must be a registered, confirmed user. Feel free to register and add anything you like. --Rawlangs (talk) 02:31, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but why don't we have anything about this?--'King of nothing" (talk) 17:31, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Mention is made in in the section Sports & Controversy and has not been removed from the article since January 3. If you think it should be in the lead, please add it, but try to stick to WP:LEAD if you want your edits to stick. --Rawlangs (talk) 22:04, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * " and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies". Of course, people eager to cover up a mass rape will likely try to hide this story in blatant disregard of WP:LEAD. -Anon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.9.205.36 (talk) 15:36, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Relax. Nothing is being covered up. The reason the page is semi-protected is because IPs were edit warring over its inclusion. Someone would add mention of the rape crew, and that mention would be immediately removed by a different anonymous user. Since semi-protection, the people removing content haven't made any such edits. In fact, fine, I'll add mention to the lead now. --Rawlangs (talk) 19:03, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Done, mention added to lead. Might save yourselves some time by assuming good faith and remembering wikipedia is not compulsory. Editors are real people and can choose to put as much or as little effort into requests as they wish. This is a user-edited space. Please register and confirm your account to make your own edits to this page (especially if you have views you feel are not or should be better represented). --Rawlangs (talk) 19:22, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Why do you mention that Wikipedia is not compulsory? Was someone forcing or pushing you to stay here even though you wanted to leave?
 * People working here should not let an obvious omission stand, only because they are volunteers. Work here is not compulsory, but the addition of relevant facts should be. (Note that I said nothing about the actual case.) --193.254.155.48 (talk) 12:09, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, the IP above said "people eager to cover up a mass rape will likely try to hide this story in blatant disregard of WP:LEAD" strongly implying anyone who didn't put that statement in the lead was involved in some sort of conspiracy. It was not an obvious omission. It is in fact a questionable inclusion and is likely to be shortened or outright removed over time. There is nothing compulsory about the inclusion of relevant facts (otherwise, once started, it would be compulsory to work on an article until it was finished. It's not). Cheers. --Rawlangs (talk) 16:59, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Your interpretation is a bit far-fetched. It's more likely that the IP was talking about the repeated removal of the content, not merely its non-inclusion.
 * If you don't think that relevant should be included in an article, you should seriously reconsider your further participation here. --193.254.155.48 (talk) 09:28, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Did I say that? By all means include relevant information. There is a duty not to vandalize the wiki. The point above simply notes the wiki does not demand participation from anyone, ever. If you look at the article history and this talk page, I believe you'll find I've been the single most persistent contributor of this information. I would remind you to assume good faith, a point I believe you've made in your own defence. Cheers. --Rawlangs (talk) 14:58, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Suggestion: create an article for this case, the same way there is one for Amanda Todd. I think the news coverage is starting to warrant it. -- Rockstone  talk to me!   04:43, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

While I don't think the rape case belongs in the lead section of the article, I too find it very odd that the article on the city has absolutely no mention of an event that made major national news. Many articles on cities have a short mention of a notable crime or court case that happened there; one or two sentences is normally sufficient if the crime or case has its own article, as here. It looks very odd to me to have it completely omitted from the entire article and not referenced anywhere. I've already been reverted once on this and told to come here so I am posting my thoughts. It does look like a coverup/ whitewash to leave it out entirely, especially when much less well-covered and more routine instances of political corruption are discussed in detail. TheBlinkster (talk) 15:10, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Edit request on 4 January 2013
Half of Big Red are rapists...

89.242.178.78 (talk) 09:04, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: No constructive edit request made. If any user in good standing sees fit to remove the above comment as vandalism you have my permission to delete this comment as well. — KuyaBriBri Talk 15:16, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * No constructive request was made by him. Here is one from me: There is one very notable event in Steubenville, well covered by national media which should be mentioned in the article. Warbola (talk) 15:59, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * At the time of your comment the incident was already mentioned in the article. Kuyabribri quite properly moved it out of the lead and into the body in accordance with WP:LEAD. --Rawlangs (talk) 19:14, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Rape Case in Lead
I have added three sentences about the rape case to the lead. At the moment, this makes discussion of the rape case about 1/3 of the lead. However, I believe inclusion is demanded by WP:LEAD which states the lead should mention any prominent controversies. I also restricted the citations to what was at the time the most recent (and most complete) free article on the topic I could find. I believe the large proportion of the lead devoted to the rape case reflects an anaemic lead more than undue weight. After all, it's only two sentences, and most of the article content is not yet reflected in the lead as it should be. I do not believe the content violates WP:NPOV as the content maintains the presumption of innocence, does not name any of the accused or suspected, and provides at-a-glance facts about a current news event. I'm open to debate this with anyone who cares to. --Rawlangs (talk) 23:49, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

 * I came to this page for reasons unrelated to the rape, and was instantly struck by its inclusion in the lead. A horrible thing for the victim and disturbing for the community, to be sure, but is this single incident -- and so far, the crime is alleged, not proven -- more noteworthy than, say, a two-decade pattern of civil rights abuse by police that led to federal sanctions and the needless expenditure of hundreds of thousands of tax dollars? I think not. PRRfan (talk) 20:30, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

 * Very good point. I'd just say the corruption has not been as widely covered as the rape. The criteria for notability might lean more towards exclusion than inclusion, but the event has received international coverage. I'll also note that it's probably the number one reason anyone outside of the US has ever heard of Steubenville. Let's look to WP:EVENT for guidance. --Rawlangs (talk) 21:16, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Addendum: My interpretation of WP:EVENT supports inclusion.
 * WP:EFFECT "It may take weeks or months to determine whether or not an event has a lasting effect. This does not, however, mean recent events with unproven lasting effect are automatically non-notable." Pass. We don't know whether or how this will affect the town in the long term.
 * WP:GEOSCOPE "Coverage of an event nationally or internationally may make notability more likely, but such coverage should not be the sole basis for creating an article." Questionable. The event has received coverage in the US, UK, and Canada (at least). This should probably lean towards making inclusion more likely.
 * WP:INDEPTH "The general guideline is that coverage must be significant and not in passing. In-depth coverage includes analysis that puts events into context, such as is often found in books, feature length articles in major news magazines..." Pass. The Atlantic Wire in particular has been following this event closely with almost daily updates. International news outlets have been covering the event.
 * WP:PERSISTENCE "The duration of coverage is a strong indicator of whether an event has passing or lasting significance. Although notability is not temporary, meaning that coverage does not need to be ongoing for notability to be established, a burst or spike of news reports does not automatically make an incident notable." Questionable. Coverage of the event has been consistently updated in news sources that have covered it, but it remains to be seen how long it will remain in the news.
 * WP:DIVERSE "Wikipedia's general notability guideline recommends that multiple sources be provided to establish the notability of a topic, not just multiple references from a single source. A series of news reports by a single newspaper or news channel would not be sufficient basis for an article." Pass. The event has been covered in print, online, and on television locally, nationally, and internationally.
 * Thoughts? --Rawlangs (talk) 21:39, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Coverage in Germany --193.254.155.48 (talk) 12:15, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Appreciated. Let me know where you'd like to see it. (I don't read German, so if you do, I'd appreciate your pointing out where I can cite this). I'd be happy to make the necessary edits for you. --Rawlangs (talk) 15:27, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe to support the "international attention" in the lede? I posted this mainly to support the point about WP:GEOSCOPE and for future reference. The article is surely only a summary of the events, written after Anonymous got involved.
 * Quick translation of the blurb: "Football player from a small town in Ohio allegedly raped a girl. Is the full extent of the crime suppressed? Other teenagers are said to have witnessed the crime and applauded it. They are now pilloried - in the Internet."
 * I get the vague impression that the German text is in turn a translation from another language, some expressions are a little off. Wouldn't be surprising of course.
 * BTW, to be able to assess this better: Der Spiegel is the premier German weekly, the website ranks number 11 in Germany according to Alexa. --193.254.155.48 (talk) 16:06, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

 * Tried to edit the lede to broaden the issue about corruption in the city. Although the alleged rape is big news, the overall reputation of Stuebenville's corruption is the bigger picture and really belongs in the lede- the city was long known for its bad politics before the rape occurred. Additionally, I tried to include mention of the role of Anonymous in the story, as this is what really makes this story notable (sad to say rape of teenage girls at parties occurs too often to be noteworthy of and by itself). Let's discuss. Wkharrisjr (talk) 21:03, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

 * Agreed that the city's reputation is what will suffer lasting impact from the rape case. The rape, however, has received more international coverage than the local media corruption. In principle I have no problem mentioning as part of a wider discussion of the city's reputation. For the moment, however, I wouldn't remove mention entirely from the lead. Let's use this as an excuse to expand and improve the lead rather than shrink it further. --Rawlangs (talk) 21:16, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the careful walkthrough of WP:EVENT. I suspect you're right: that the vast majority of visits to this page for at least the next few months will be in connection with the (alleged) rape, and so perhaps the current level of detail in the lead about the incident is justified. But after a verdict is returned in the trial, I suspect the lead ought to look something like this: "The city drew international attention for the brutal 2012 rape of a local teenager by two members of the high school football team." PRRfan (talk) 04:02, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
 * It occurs to me that a phrase like "the city drew international attention" is actually a good thing to add now; it explains the presence of sentences about a single crime in the lead. Also, the sentence about people who weren't arrested appears below; it doesn't belong in the lead.PRRfan (talk) 04:08, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Excellent edit and thank you. --Rawlangs (talk) 04:47, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't Anonymous be part of the mention in the lede as its actions is what really brought this alleged crime to national attention? Wkharrisjr (talk) 13:47, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
 * No. If Anonymous deserves mention at all, it belongs in the body of the article with the other details. PRRfan (talk) 15:26, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Someone deleted the previous mention of Anonymous in the body of the article. I reentered it. I aslo moved the section about the rape out of the "Culture/Sports" section and into "History". Although memebers of the football team were alleged to have participated in the event, it seemed odd placing it in the sports section. Wkharrisjr (talk) 05:10, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

 * This doesn't belong in the intro section, because: 1) it's the 2nd item in the table of content section, 2) immediately below the TOC it shows up again in the history section. This information isn't buried way down in the article.  Seriously how the heck can anyone miss it in the history section?  Also see WikiProject Cities/US Guideline.  •  Sbmeirow  •  Talk  •  16:18, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * WikiProject Cities/US Guideline states: "This page contains advice about style. As such it contains the recommendations and/or opinions of one or more WikiProjects on how to present articles within their area of interest." It is not a policy page like WP:EVENT. WP:LEAD demands the inclusion of prominent controversies as discussed above. It doesn't have to be "buried way down in the article" for inclusion the lead. --Rawlangs (talk) 16:38, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * There is nothing in the body of the article regarding this, I just do not see including in the lede something that isn't in the article. Also, in the long run, the ONLY thing that will be notable about this is the involvement of Anonymous.  Sad as it is, rape is a commonplace occurrence.  In 2011, according to the FBI crime statistics, there were 83,425 forcible rapes in the United States.  That is roughly one every 6.5 minutes.  At this point, there has been some extensive media coverage.  But, due to the sensational nature of news reporting, I would be willing to bet that there will be very little if any widespread media interest in this case as the trials unfold.  I also suspect, by the comments above regarding local corruption, that many of the arguments here are being brought by locals in the Steubenville area.  What seems important to the locals is not necessarily, and most likely, shouldn't be what is in the article.  This article is about Steubenville, not for Steubenville.  All articles on Wikipedia are to be written from a world perspective, not a local one. From a world view, this is a minor story, only elevated in importance by the involvement of Anonymous.  Take a deep breath, folks.  Wikipedia is not the newspaper, and we need to wait to see what unfolds before we invest much into this article.  Remember, as heinous as this event is (and I am certainly not saying otherwise), it is something that involved only a few people for only a few minutes.  IMHO, you are trying to give this one event way too much importance in this article, which is supposed to be about Steubenville, a city that has been in existence for 218 years.

 * In short, I think a small mention, without its own header, in the history section is all this merits. Also, it should certainly mention Anonymous, because they are the only reason this received any attention beyond the local area.  A very viable alternative would be a short blurb like what you are trying to get into the lede, in the history section, with a link to the much more extensive write up at the Steubenville High School article.

 * BTW, I tried to access the city's website to look for local crime stats. Is it down due to Anonymous? Gtwfan52 (talk) 23:01, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

 * By all means mention anonymous if you think they deserve mention. Also, if you think the content belongs in the history section, feel free to move it. It's been moving around the article as we work toward consensus. As to your other comments, I respectfully disagree. Responding point by point:
 * "There is nothing in the body of the article regarding this" There is in fact an entire section in the body regarding this.
 * "in the long run, the ONLY thing that will be notable about this is the involvement of Anonymous" Seeing as the case has not come to trial, it is entirely premature to make this type of presumption. Further WP:EVENT allows us to include information even before we know the long term impact of the event.
 * "due to the sensational nature of news reporting, I would be willing to bet that there will be very little if any widespread media interest in this case as the trials unfold" Painting all of the reporting on this issue as "sensational" is overgeneralizing. See the cited CBC article which reported on an attempt to change the venue. Further, the Guardian has used this story as an opportunity to discuss the general social malaise of the rust belt.
 * "by the comments above regarding local corruption, that many of the arguments here are being brought by locals in the Steubenville area" While this might be true, it has no bearing on the rape issue as that has been reported internationally. I'm a born and bred Canadian, and have never even visited Ohio. I care enough about this to be writing to you right now.
 * "we need to wait to see what unfolds before we invest much into this article" True, which is why this is not the only, or even the most significant issue in the article. It is however the most significant controversy surrounding the town, as evinced by the worldwide scope of the reporting. Ask the average Joe about Steubenville and if they've heard about it, it's because they've heard about this.
 * "IMHO, you are trying to give this one event way too much importance in this article" The rape case is in fact the only thing most people in the world have heard about Steubenville, making it the single most notable item in the article. It satisfies WP:EVENT (as argued above). The football team is one of the biggest cultural drivers in the town, and in the area. The story is being used to discuss rape culture in the US, and social malaise in the rust belt.
 * In my opinion, your arguments are based on mistaken understandings of both WP:EVENT and WP:LEAD. While I assume you're trying to be constructive, removal is not improving the article in this case. Cheers. --Rawlangs (talk) 00:19, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Good arguments. I was basing my statement about the body of the article on yesterday's version, which was definitely my bad.  The localism bit comes from much time editing articles on communities all over the US, and seeing unfolding events get put into the article and never get brought back to a size that reflects their proper weight.  The traffic cam bit in this article is a prime example.  This is a 200+ year old community.  We can't possibly judge the proper weight of this now, but I will promise you that at best, in the long run, this will end up being a footnote at best.  The impact of WWII and the Great Depression, the Rust Belt effect you mentioned (although I can't see how a rape can relate to that.  I think we will see it has far more to do with how we train and motivate high school athletes), all have much more long term importance to the history of the town than 1 crime.  I haven't the time now to finish this, just wanted to let you know I appreciated your reasoned arguments.  More later. Gtwfan52 (talk) 05:55, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

 * Comment- Sorry, I don't believe this belongs in the lede at all. Not only is it undue wieght, it doesn't qualify as having anything to do with the city. The section in this article should also be shortened. I am not arguing it shouldn't be mentioned, but in the scope of over 200 years of history, the rape case has very little to do with the city itself. Wikipedia isn't a gossip magazine, it's an encyclopedia. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 20:05, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok, I read over Undue weight again, and it clearly says: "...in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." Considering that a google search for "Steubenville Ohio" turns up hundreds of articles that are mostly covering the rape case, I would argue that it is, in fact, very prominent and notable.Rgambord (talk) 00:32, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This is an article about the City of Steubenville. Steubenville has more than 200 years of history. If you do a Google news search, and use the Archive option, you will see there are more than 100,000 different articles that are about or mention Steubenville. None of which has anything to do with the rape case. One article I found was quite interesting. It's about 17 year-old Ethelender Loy, who shot and killed her abusive father. There was massive coverage of that case too. It was in 1935. Almost 80 years ago. In 2093(80 years from now), what will the rape case have to do with Steubenville, Ohio? Also, there is already an article about the incident, because it has some notability. It's notability has nothing to do with where the rape took place. The city itself had nothing to do with the crime. A crime that happens several times a month on college campuses all over the World. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 01:16, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The notability of the case isn't due to the fact that a woman was raped, but that it made international news. I did a news search for "Steubenville" prior to June 30, 2012, and less than 100 articles were written mentioning the city within the last 45 years. I did a search for "Steubenville rape" following the date, June 30, 2012, and over 1,000 articles were returned. I refer back to WP:Undue, ""...in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." You are equating the 9 months of news coverage to what amounts to 450 years, normally. No?Rgambord (talk) 01:33, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Either something is wrong with my computer, or you grossly over-represented the number of articles returned. I can only go 10 pages in to the archives, and there are only 10 pages of articles prior to the rape case, outside of the archives. This gives a grand total of 200 news articles on the city of Steubenville within the last 100 years, and 1,000 within the last 9 months. Rgambord (talk) 01:38, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Wow. No offense, Hoss, but you don't seem to know how to use Google News. I mean, just common sense wise one would have to realize there are many more articles concerning Steubenville than 200. A hint for you is that Google lists how many articles are known at the top of the page, and then they are split into sections. Perhaps if people want to edit this article they should have more than a "rape case" understanding of the city itself. Since, you know, this article is about the actual city. Steubenville was the gateway to the West and the main launching point for exploring the Northwest Territories. From the Ohio River to the Missouri. The city was also known as the City of Murals, and many painters from around the world visited and migrated there. There is a lot more to this city than some over-sensationalized rape case that draws the attention of TMZ and National Enquirer gawkers. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 05:31, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I wasn't familiar with the new google layout (search tools hides the article # when it's open). So, 24,600 articles since July 31, 2012. 8,590 prior to July 31, 2012. This case was covered on CNN, FOX, MSNBC, TIME, NYT, etc... So, here we have the difference between your opinion (over sensationalized) and wikipedia policy. Rgambord (talk) 13:20, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Rape case independent article
I am somewhat surprised that an article on the case has yet to appear on WP. I am assuming this is because of questions over Notability and Current Events Editing, as well as Undue and other reasons. However, as has been stated above, more people are going to come to this page because of it and it seems to me that it is time for the case to have an article by itself. The case has been covered by the New York Times, CNN, Good morning America, the Guardian, Daily Mail. I think we have enough RS and the fact that it has been reported so widely establishes notability, does it not? I suspect that there are other reasons editors here have been reluctant to make a page, and feel here would be the appropriate place to discuss the matter.--Bellerophon5685 (talk) 01:01, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

 * You're pretty well on the button there. The relevant policy can be found in WP:EVENT. You can see my interpretation of those guidelines in the discussion above. If the event satisfies WP:EVENT, it merits inclusion in wikipedia. Cheers. --Rawlangs (talk) 03:56, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * It clearly deserves an article, I've actually got a summary of the events written up, but haven't gotten around to writing an actual article. Ryan Vesey 17:24, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * By all means. Let's be bold and get this going. Post here when it's up and I'll do a copyedit. --Rawlangs (talk) 17:32, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * There was an article, but it was very POV and got deleted. Personally, I don't think there should be an article.  News events are only supposed to have articles if it is obvious they will have some sort of long term effect, like changes in  laws or policies, or a continuing wide-spread impact on the collective psyche. The only thing that is unusual about this event is the involvement of Anonymous.  Sad as it is, multiple teenage girls get raped every day.  Gtwfan52 (talk) 19:08, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:EVENT allows for creation of a page even before long term impact has been determined. All we have right now is the extent of coverage, which is pretty wide. I don't think we have enough info to delete an entire article providing it complies to WP:CRIME and WP:NPOV. But that's just one person's opinion. --Rawlangs (talk) 19:41, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

 * Since no one else is doing it, I decided to BE BOLD, grab the bull by the horns, and just do it. I'm designating the Steubenville High School article the primary article to hold the text about this event (or until someone creates a new article for the event).  The text in the Steubenville, Ohio article should be VERY short, similar to this Newtown, Connecticut section.  Please thin down text in this article ASAP.  •  Sbmeirow  •  Talk  •  15:09, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, nonsense. See discussion on your new article. --193.254.155.48 (talk) 12:19, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Good for you! But I think six sentences is about right for the summary in this article, no thinning needed. PRRfan (talk) 15:51, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 13 January 2013
'alleged' is misspelled as 'allegded' in the article. I can not seem to edit this, so someone with privileges could you please do this?

 * Yes check.svg Done Looks like PRRFan got that done for you. You can't edit the page without a confirmed or auto-confirmed account because it has been semi-protected. Thanks for the report. --Rawlangs (talk) 03:52, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

over use of "alleged"
There is not an "alleged rape" case. There is a rape case. Boys are alleged to have committed rape. Not "alleged rape." The purpose of the case and the trial is to determine whether a *rape* occurred. Not an alleged rape. If convicted, the boys will be convicted of rape not alleged rape. If it cuts down on the edit wars to append that word to every mention of rape, fine, but let's have enough respect for our language to admit we're using it badly here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.68.128.90 (talk) 14:39, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Eddie Dew Memorial Airpark
Hi all, Wanted to let you know that Eddie Dew Memorial Airpark has been nominated for deletion. If any editor has constructive history, data, events, or other material to add to the article I'd appreciate it! Thanks again.  Market St.⧏  ⧐ Diamond Way  20:07, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Looks like this has been moved from Delete to undelete to now AfD so yes this is again being nominated for deletion, please join the conversation link on the article's notice if you wish to express yourself, thanks.  Market St.⧏  ⧐ Diamond Way  10:07, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Recent expansion and moving of Rape case section
The same reasons to not expand and move the Rape case section are listed above in the attempted adding of the case in the lede of the article. It's a small blip on the screen of city that has more than 200 years of history. The gateway to the West, the city of murals, those are significant sections for expansion of this article. Not a rape case that has nothing to do with the city. There are rapes and murders in every city in America. In the World. A brief mention and a link to the article is all that is deserved. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 00:47, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

 * It's a current event that generated a lot of traffic today, so it deserved a rewrite and also be higher up in the article. Almost 2,500 hits on the city article http://stats.grok.se/en/latest/Steubenville,_Ohio and about 14,000 at http://stats.grok.se/en/latest/Steubenville_High_School_rape_case  If it wasn't national and international news then it wouldn't even be notable enough to be on Wikipedia.  I placed a comment after the text saying that it needed to be thinned down after the news settled down.  By the way, if you want to backout text, then you should backout specific text instead of everything in the article.  •  Sbmeirow  •  Talk  • 02:03, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

 * User:DD2K needs to quit backing-out my other changes, like the infobox / intro / other sections, which have nothing to do with me moving text to another section. I'm waiting for you to restore my other changes!  •  Sbmeirow  •  Talk  • 02:15, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

 * First of all, we do not design articles because of traffic or current events(Wikipedia is not a newspaper). This is an article in an encyclopedia about the city of Steubenville, not a tabloid. Second of all, you can make the minor edits or improvements that have nothing to do with the rape case. I have no problem with that. It's not my fault you made a major, controversial edit and then minor edits. I would not consider it a revert if you restored the minor edits that do not concern the rape case. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 02:24, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

 * It's not my fault you either don't know how to do incremental reverts or too lazy to do it. •  Sbmeirow  •  Talk  • 03:00, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Either way, you want it back in, you fix it. As I see you've done. So making this edit was just an attempt to get under my skin. Didn't work, Hoss. Dave Dial (talk) 03:06, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Let's keep it civil, please. I agree with Dave.  5 years from now, no-one outside of those connected with the case will even remember.  It is part of the "We have 16 all news channels and they have to have something to talk about" phenomenon.  In 5 years, if it is still a big deal, we can add content to the history section that will have some context other than "right here, right now".  Until then, the main story is still linked and has all the details.  Just as a note, Chicago does not talk about Richard Speck at all, but the mass murder he committed was huge news for years in Chicagoland. John from Idegon (talk) 03:32, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

 * Whether or not the Rape Case Sectiojn belongs in this article, it shouldn't it be located in some section other that "Education"? Perhaps "History"? Wkharrisjr (talk) 14:01, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Concur with moving it to History. PRRfan (talk) 14:40, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I disagree strongly. Something that happened after the purchase date of the oldest piece of meat in my freezer is definitely not history.  We have copy in many city articles under government about the most recent election, doesn't it follow that something that happened that is newsworthy recently in the schools be under education?  Just my thoughts.  I would rather have it as an unheaded paragraph in history than as a separate section or subsection,  but I think its former location in education was the best choice.  The fact that we must debate where to put it to me is an indication that it doesn't belong in the article at all except for a listing of the article about it in a "See also" section. John from Idegon (talk) 17:09, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps History is not the most appropriate section (maybe a new "Crime" section?) but the crime did not occur on school property nor at a school sanctioned event and even though administrators appeared to have not properly reported the incident, I think it is a real stretch to place in in "Education".Wkharrisjr (talk) 19:17, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with John from Idegon. It doesn't belong in the history section. I believe it was most proper in the School section, but it may be also proper in the Government corruption section. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 17:34, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * @. That is somewhat a red herring. The crime itself is utterly not notable.  Sad as it is, rape occurs every day.  The notable part of the story is the school's attempt at cover-up and the subsequent involvement of the internet groups.  So yes, I think education is as good a place as any.  Generally, smaller cities such as this do not have enough good material to support a crime section.  And as far as the government corruption section, much of that as it stands now is WP:UNDUE and should probably go away.  Most of it falls more in the line of local interest stuff or trivia and does not rise to the level of encyclopedic.  But that is another discussion, one I have left alone until we can get this rape story settled. John from Idegon (talk) 21:19, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Upon further reflection and re-reading all of the above debate regarding this story, I feel I must restate and reaffirm my position above (disclosure--I am Gtwfan52 and have changed my username recently). Sad as what happened is, and I feel great empathy for the victim, her family and for the families of the stupid young men that perpetrated this crime upon her, the only story here is the story.  I can echo  comment several months ago about the patricide in 1935.  This story may be defining Steubenville now, but now is not history, now is a current event.  Current events do not go in paper encyclopedias, why should they go here?  I feel the inclusion of anything beyond a reference to the Wikipedia article on the event is totally undue and has no place.
 * Perhaps, once we have the required perspective of time to determine what history truly is, perhaps a mention of the prevailing attitude of cover-up and corruption that were brought up way above may be part of the history in this town. Perhaps.  It is nothing but arrogant that we (and this is not accusatory of anyone here;it is a very fallacious and prevailing attitude in our society today) think we can determine what will be history 20 minutes after it happens.  Just because the talking heads talk about it does not make it history.  If it is gory or lurid, they will talk about it. We have no business memorializing current events in this, an encyclopedia article.  Wikipedia has no deadline, remember?  Let's put our eagerness to write aside and let time tell us what history will be.  It is my position that we should take the high road and link the article on the case in a "See also" section, and revisit this in a few years. BTW, I have never lived in Ohio and I may have passed through Steubenville once, not really sure. John from Idegon (talk) 21:53, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * But Wikipedia's not a paper encyclopedia; it is far more comprehensive and far more flexible. For the foreseeable future, most people who come to this article will have learned of its existence because of the rape, if they are not indeed seeking information about the crime itself. It deserves more than a See Also (although I could see paring the text further and/or moving it). Let's leave it in and let time tell whether it should go away. PRRfan (talk) 22:32, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * The problem with that approach is that it won't go away. People who edit will see it and add to it; we see that happening now.  Years pass and it goes out of people's memories (perhaps) and the copy stays in the article and no-one remembers to take it out.  It is kind of like proving a negative.  I have seen numerous (I will look later for some examples) instances of what proved to be trivial current events going into settlement articles added by well-meaning editors that have been shown to be trivial by the passage of time.  They stay until someone comes along 5 years later and removes them.  If the event is truly important, someone will add it in after it has stood the test of time.  With a link to the event's article in this article, people will see it and go to it if that is the info they were looking for.  But by including copy in this article, we are in effect memorializing it as historic now, when we cannot possibly have the perspective to do so.

 * That being said, it appears we have a consensus to move it back to education. Anybody disagree? John from Idegon (talk) 23:39, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

I took the suggestion at the very top of this page and looked to the city article guidelines to see if they had any intelligence to add to this debate. They didn't. While I was over that way, I left a neutral announcement on the talk page at the City Project inviting further participation in this debate. John from Idegon (talk) 00:04, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Good idea to ask at City Project; thanks. I'm still chary of moving it to Education; I wonder whether City Project will have ideas along the lines of Wkharrisjr's suggestion of a Crime section. In the meantime, I think "They stay until someone comes along 5 years later and removes them" sounds like a great process. PRRfan (talk) 00:26, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

 * Too minor for Steubenville. Maybe in High School article or School Board article? Another transitory felony. All places have them. "International headlines" sometimes means "slow news day."
 * A decade or two ago, there were several women teachers who were convicted of molesting male students. This captured the minds of the media on a slow news day(s). After a while of paying attention, both the media and the public realized that this happened with some frequency, maybe once a decade in each large public school district, roughly 500 instances annually! So this dropped out of "national headlines" and are now reported locally only. In the meantime, the "initial" 3-4 headline grabbers have articles in Wikipedia because of the inordinate publicity they were given. But they were never really that newsworthy. Just another day, another felony. Student7 (talk) 18:45, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Exactly! John from Idegon (talk) 22:39, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Yet intense coverage of specific examples of a common yet somewhat hidden problem can lead to widespread public knowledge, discussion, and action. Such events (in varying degrees) are of historical significance. In Steubenville's case, the rape stimulated unprecedented national and even international discussion of the issue of rape culture. 15:22, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I hear you and I've entered similar things myself (though on less controversial matters). I've never heard of it though I would have reason to pay attention to the news. I had a relative who attended school there, so "Steubenville" would have/should have caught my eye. But it didn't. Either I wasn't paying sufficient attention or there was a spurt of publicity which died out almost immediately.
 * If it helps, I agree that male athletes should be discouraged, to the point of incarcerating them, for believing that they can "have their way" with helpless females. A bit worse when it is tolerated in college with people in their majority and "campus security" handles it, only really doesn't. The real police never hear about it.
 * I will concede that since the acts took place off campus, it doesn't belong in the school/School Board, as I previously suggested. I think it is just another crime. Wikipedia is WP:NOT. It is not a police blotter.
 * Having said that, it might appear as a part of an article in which there are specific instances of ignoring/covering up rape accusations against athletes (and a WP:RS to start the article off). What we have is a trivial subarticle, List_of_sporting_scandals. College only. (Kind of puts this material in perspective, though).

 * I just don't think it belongs in this article. Student7 (talk) 21:49, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

 * Comment - I rearranged the sections in accordance to what I believe sums up the consensus here. Other editors can feel free to further arrange the sections if they believe it is needed. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 22:42, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

 * Suggestion the argument that this won't be notable in the future is reading the WP:CRYSTALBALL. It is a notable event for this town now and future editors can determine if notability did not survive the history books (not likely given the likely survivability of the internet). Rape is not the story, the behavior of town and school officials is, and that is a notable event about this town. However, we should reference WP:weight as to where to place this information in the town's article and how much to say about it. I think the length of the entry is about right, but there are two other issues. First, the entry is almost entirely about the rape and the hackers with only a single mention of the alleged cover up. The alleged cover up is why it become notable and why it should be mentioned in this page. That needs to be expanded on. Second the placement isn't really supported by WikiProject Cities/US Guideline. "Local issues" isn't a great section header and these three scandals aren't really section materiel. It should be a subsection under History or Politics. Since editors above seem to focus their problem with this falling under history, let's make it a subsection under Politics and change the name to something like Notable Scandals, or Political Scandals, or notable political issues. D kriegls  ( talk to me! ) 00:38, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I can support that whole heartedly. Thanks, . John from Idegon (talk) 01:41, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
 * OK. Let's make it Politics#Scandals; no need for another adjective. PRRfan (talk) 03:52, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I have to disagree with . To not qualify the title is to invite inclusion of "the alderman slept with the dentist's wife" type garbage. John from Idegon (talk) 04:30, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
 * At the risk of plunging into the picayune, let me inquire: what adjective do you want? Surely not the redundant "Politics#Political scandals"? And "Politics#Notable scandals" is needless. The article's other subheads don't say "Culture#Notable historic sites" or "Politics#Notable political corruption" or "Demographics#Notable public health issues". 05:34, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, "Political" in the subsection is a no-no. We're not supposed to referenced above titles in subtitles. That was my bad to suggest it. However, "Notable" is often used to insulate lists that might attract attempts at non-notable entries (e.g. Notable People). I vote Notable Scandals. D kriegls  ( talk to me! ) 03:02, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, concur. 16:27, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
 * So far we have two minors convicted of raping a minor woman. End of story, and perhaps reflected in a thousand other towns/cities annually in the U.S. There is nothing more to the story at all. There are no formal "coverup" accusations, and therefore no convictions. Pretty ordinary. I'm glad this is just restricted to Steubenville. I'd hate to see this gain traction in the rest of place articles. It would be nothing but a police blotter. (Think "New York City"!) Student7 (talk) 21:53, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Somehow, I missed the national and international discussion spurred by the rapes in those other thousand towns. PRRfan (talk) 01:25, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I have resigned myself that this article is going to talk about this, as unimportant to the bigger picture of the town as it is. BTW, notability is only important in determining what gets an article, not what is in it.  And i do not see the extended, lengthy discussion of this event that you are portraying.  It got its 15 second bite on the news a few times.  It got some write ups in papers.  Case in point for relative weight.  For many people worldwide, the first thing they think of when they hear "Chicago" is the gangster wars of the 1930's.  There is no arguing that was a notable event in the history of the city.  It gets exactly one sentence in a paragraph on two decades in an article 10 times the size of this one.  Why?  Even tho there is likely more written on the thirties gangland wars than any other subject pertaining to Chicago, its relative importance to the understanding of the city is not very large.  Same with this.  Be honest with yourself.  I will bet that Steubenville is pretty much the same place it was two years ago, before this ever happened.  If it isn't, I would bet that there are much better reasons than the news covered a particularly tawdry story that originated there.  I still say the best contents this article could have regarding this event is a link in a "See also" section, but I could live with a much briefer (one sentence tops) inclusion in another section. John from Idegon (talk) 02:03, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I am not sure why you think anyone is not being honest with themselves here. But just as a reality check, I trotted over to Google to see whether the New York Times, whose attention has long been a proxy for WP notability, was still writing about Steubenville. Yep, as recently as a week ago. So I searched just for "Steubenville", and found this piece at Huffington Post — to be sure, a far less weighty measure of notability, and yet still evidence that the discussion goes on. Anyway, I'm satisfied with a brief mention of the rape in the article. PRRfan (talk) 02:41, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Do you realize that the history of the world didn't start when Google and TMZ got were introduced to the public, right? Sometimes I can't understand people who don't have a grasp on real historic events and want to spend their time rubber necking on the types of stories such as the rape case. There are literally thousands of these types of incidents every week. Reported incidents, not even mentioning the ones that are not reported. What about the 14 year-old girl in Montana, should that be mentioned in the lede of the Montana article? What about the 14 year-old boy who is accused of raping and murdering a teacher in Boston? Should that be prominently displayed in the Boston article? Rapes in New Delhi? Rapes in Missouri? And yea, that's just a quick search of the New York Times the last month or so. In fact there 68,600 articles in the NYTimes about rape, and 67,800 of them do not mention Steubenville. So let's try to get some perspective here. Dave Dial (talk) 03:15, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Looks like we're talking past each other here. Having secured a good compromise, I will gracefully withdraw from the discussion. Cheers. PRRfan (talk) 04:04, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok. Apologies if I am misinterpreting your points. In any case, good luck. Dave Dial (talk) 05:22, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Adding link to Steubenville Rape Case as a see also link
I think this is completely reasonable as it is a major reason steubenville has been in the news in the past and it still of interest today. It's why I visited the page. It didn't make sense to hide it away, unlinked from the town its related to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jrruwe (talk • contribs) 18:15, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

 * Oppose per WP:RECENT. John from Idegon (talk) 01:28, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

 * This is not a recent case. --89.0.244.51 (talk) 12:51, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
 * It most certainly is, and you still are editing against concensus. When there is agreement here to add it then it can be added. Not before. John from Idegon (talk) 14:11, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

title: Talk:Steubenville, Ohio


text:
Talk:List of religions and spiritual traditions/Archive 2

Geographic References
I want to talk about this India reference again. I guess all geographic/national references. It should be clear that a religion can exist outside its original birthplace. Dharmic also seems like a perfically acurate description of the religions in that group. Besides if we call the Dharmic religions Indic as well we must call the Abrahamic religions middle eastern. --metta, T he  S unborn  ☸  04:21, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * That's well and good. However, origins play a significant role in the development of religions. Abrahamic religions have never been called Middle Eastern and that is a facetious comparison (not because it disagrees with my own posit, but because it's simply invalid). The Indian religions are joined at the hip by their common Indian heritage, and Buddhism only left India and developed non-Indian strands after 1500 years. In vast contrast, Christianity, easily the biggest of the three Abrahamic faiths in terms of numbers of followers, immediately following the death of Christ, saw its primary development not in the Middle East but in in the Mediterranean. Not until Constantine's conversion in the fourth century to Christianity was there even a consolidation of the New Testament and general 'Christian doctrine'; before that it was a refractory group of sects scattered around the primarily Latin empire colonies. Hence, calling Christianity a Middle-Eastern religion is retarded whereas even unaffiliated and Buddhist scholars alike will refer to Buddhism as an Indian religion. This final point goes to the idea that general scholarly consensus is an important criterion for information and their presentation on these pages. It is more standard to refer to Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism (and Sikhism) as Indian religions than Dharmic religions when one is speaking in an academic context. We are not writing a religious tourbook. We're writing an Encyclopedia. Frankly, your distillation of the Chinese philosophy religions (I Ching, Daoism and Confucianism) is deleterious to the understanding of people who might not know that they're all Chinese religions. I strongly feel that attempting to ignore geographical, cultural and historical realities contributes not to NPOV but to a biased and factually inaccurate presentation of material. By, in these cases, ignoring the Chinese and Indian linkages one creates lacunae in the material and does nothing to further the idea of objectivity, indeed retrogressing in that regard. --LordSuryaofShropshire 22:23, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

 * Over half of current Buddhism and Sikhism developed from influences beyond greater India. I acknowledge that Theravadan Buddhism developed exclusively inside India. However, there are two other forms of Buddhism that deserve not be labeled "Indian". Sikhism is the result of Hinduism and Islam running into each other. As a result it doesn't deserve that label exclusively either.

 * I have also linked to this page on the "Pages needing Comment" as neither you nor I are comming any further to an end to this argument. So far it is myself and Nat Krause that have questioned your use of this word. Both of us have had lengthy talks with you over it. I would like to see what everyone else thinks. --metta, T he  S unborn  ☸  03:56, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * Sikhism developed entirely in India! Islam had established itself in India for almost four or five centuries before Sikhism developed and asserting that because Islam originally came from outside and therefore Sikhism is not an Indian religion is the most bogus argumentation I've ever heard. Sikhism was conceived of and molded entirely in India by Indians (primarily former Hindus and some Muslims). No one studying religion would call Sikhism anything other than Indian and all classify Sikhism as a solely Indian phenomenon. So, that's completely invalid. As for Buddhism, the argument seems to have much more validity. Indeed, Zen Buddhism is entirely Chinese. But then again, it developed a proto-strain in Northern (probably Kashmiri regions) of India. The word 'zen' itself comes from the Sanskrit Dhyana. Anyway, don't worry, I and all other people in this consider Zen Buddhism and most forms of Mahayana to basically be Chinese strands. But this doesn't change the fact that Buddhism's primary and most fundamental philosophical development occurred primarily in India for over 1500 years. Things like Dhyana and Zen attest to this. Buddhism is an Indic religion transported to other countries and developed in different ways. So what... because there's a significant and distinctive Indonesian Hinduism, one that has roots many many centuries old and is clearly distinguished from Indian Hindu sects, one is not going to call Hinduism an Indic religion? That's fallacious logic (or better yet, that's not at all logical). What happens if a sect of Shintoism now develops in West Africa and it grows strong and has a following for a thousand years. Are we still going to deny that Shintoism is a Japanese religion? Yes, we might qualify it and say it's a Japanese religion with a major West African strain. Origins mean a lot to religion and much of what makes Indic religions special is their shared cultural context. Dharma is an Indian concept in its inception and was later spread to other countries. I feel you're just upset about nationalism which would be a sort of anachronistic way to look at the names "India" and "Indic" because there, obviously, was no "nation" then. Any sane individual would not confuse these. It is clear from reading the page on Buddhism and Sikhism that this was an India separated into many kingdoms and often wildly different cultures. The India-page itself tells the history. This is the way in which religious and cultural historians have and are classifying these religions: Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism and Sikhism were all completely greater Indian phenomena when conceived and owe much of their philosophical and aesthetic outlooks to Indian culture both religious and secular. --LordSuryaofShropshire 05:23, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)

 * So what... because there's a significant and distinctive Indonesian Hinduism, one that has roots many many centuries old and is clearly distinguished from Indian Hindu sects, one is not going to call Hinduism an Indic religion? Yes this is exactly what I am saying, it is as much an Indian Religion as it is Indonesian. Buddhism is as much Indian as it is Chinese, Japanese, Tibetan, etc. So why should India get its name on the top? Just because it started there? Then we must put the Middle-Eastern tag on Christianity.

 * What happens if a sect of Shintoism now develops in West Africa and it grows strong and has a following for a thousand years. Are we still going to deny that Shintoism is a Japanese religion? Yes, we might qualify it and say it's a Japanese religion with a major West African strain. No, we wouldn't call it a Japanese Religion. We would call it something else.

 * Dharma is an Indian concept in its inception and was later spread to other countries. If that is the case why not remove the India reference because Everyone knows it is an Indian concept to start with? --The Sunborn

I don't really care one way or another how this is settled, but what's with this claim that Buddhism developed exclusively in India for 1500 years? If you look at the History of Buddhism article, it looks like it entered the Hellenistic world after about 200 years, and then developed in the cosmopolitan Indo-Persio-Helleno-Scythian society of what is now Afghanistan for another 300 years or so before entering China. Heck, it only took 1000 years to reach Japan, which had pretty much 0 contact with India until the 20th century. Not that it's important, I guess. - Nat Krause 18:22, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * On the north-west frontier of the Indian subcontinent in modern-day Pakistan and some points of Afghanistan Indian culture met with Hellenic. No one's saying there was no foreign influence but there is ample reason to state that Buddhism as foundationally-conceived is a product of ancient India and is therefore, at its roots, an Indic religion. No one's denying its international (in that sense additionally East-Asian) background. Most scholars, Buddhist or not, would agree. --LordSuryaofShropshire 04:37, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)

Unique religions
What is this supposed to mean? I know Rajneeshism is a conflation of mystic Hinduism and Buddhism... Zoroastrianism is an ancient Iranian religion with the same roots as Vedic Hinduism... so in the sense of where beliefs are drawn from, or 'uniqueness' (in other words 'solitariness') of background doesn't apply to them... are we using different criteria for 'unique'? Please explain, someone (I assume Sunborn).--LordSuryaofShropshire 05:38, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)

 * Yeah, it is just a place where I put all the religions that I didn't think fit into the above categories, it is proabable that Rajneeshism should go under Dharmic religions. I probably missed it as I added it to the list at the same time as I was categorizing it. Zoroastrianism is definately independant of the other Dharmic religions on many different points. There is no reason to believe that it should be under Dharmic religions, it has no concsept of dharma. Eckankar is a canidate for moving to other places too. I just couldn't think of a reason to put it under Dharmic religions. It might also go under syncretic religions. You could put the process church and the yezidis under a heading "Lucifer is a good guy religions" or something. The cargo cults are a very interesting and unique religion and unquestionably belongs under a title of unique religions. But change it around and I will tell you if I think otherwise. --The Sunborn

 * Who the heck was saying to put Zoroastrianism or Eckankar under Dharmic religions? I certainly wasn't. I was just saying that these religions aren't 'unique' in that they have backgrounds unaffiliated with other faiths (Zoroastrainism is patently NOT a dharma faith); more importantly, the term 'Unique Religions' sounds odd, inappropriate and obliquely POV. The word unique has equivocal meanings and thus would result in multiple readings by different readers. Many would say it seems to privilege, in a way, these religions above others. I understand, sort of, where you were originally coming from regarding the 'unique' phrasing, but it's a bad terminology to use. I don't propose artificially listing Rajneeshism under Dharmic religions, but neither should it be under "unique religions" (the whole category should be removed). I propose we remove 'unique' altogether and think of other sensible, more useful, ways to categorize these faiths.--LordSuryaofShropshire 17:21, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)

 * Yes, exactly, I agree completely! What do you have in mind? This was the best I could come up with. What can you do to make it better. --metta, T he  S unborn  ☸  01:14, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * Well, first we need to do away with "Philosophical Religions". It has the same problem as "Unique Religions" since many sects or strands of Abrahamic and Dharma religions could rightfully be considered "Philosophical Religions" (Vedanta and Zen come immediately to mind). I don't think this artificial ignoring of Chinese religions is helping and we should revert to that. Abrahamic and Indo-Dharmic faiths are major world religions while Eckankar and Rajneeshism are not. Perhaps there should be a large section for religions with less than, say, 10 million adherents. I don't know, some reasonable cut-off. The grouping for a lot of these religions doesn't seem appropriate right now. THis might take some thinking.--LordSuryaofShropshire 03:30, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

Category changes
I thought the latest changes were extremely good. Props to Sunborn.--LordSuryaofShropshire 00:18, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)

 * I am a fairly useful editor, I am just zealous in arguments. I know it makes some people mad, I just expect everyone else to as zealous. However, I would like more explanation of the word "Indic". It by definition means "of India", however you don't want Rajneeshism listed in the Indic category. Also, I purpose a heiarchy of important groups, from the top down, we will have to shuffle around though maybe. This is important if we want to avoid dual listing. Scientology is also a non-revealed religion but probably belongs with the alien-based religions. All the Indigenous religions could go under non-revealed too. The Orisha religions probably could go under syncretic religions too. So what I purpose is that the categories at the top have more priority than the ones at the bottom. What that will do is act like a filter. If a religion fits a certain set of parameters it is in one group if not, the next set of parameters is tried. So at the bottom will be the uncategorized religions. It would be useful to set out the parameters so we can argue over the parameters rather than semantics. --metta, T he  S unborn  ☸  14:08, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * I don't know if you care anymore, LordSuryaofShropshire, but if you don't respond here within 3 days I will remove the word "Indic" from the category title. If however, you wish the word to stay, answer my previous questions in this category. Namely, However, I would like more explanation of the word "Indic". It by definition means "of India", however you don't want Rajneeshism listed in the Indic category. Why and how does this work? --metta, T he  S unborn  ☸  03:52, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

American Atheists, list or not?
It was mentioned awhile back that American Atheists could be listed. Do we want to or not? Opinions please. --The Sunborn

 * I talked to them, the president didn't like the idea of being called a religion and at the time it made sense. However, on reading futher, they seem much more like a religion than say Brianism. They have official wedding celebrants who can marry people, they give ideas on how to deal with death and "the religions", their symbol is also one of the officially used on American solidier's (and government workers) tombstones. I think they should be listed. --Still just me here

Babism ect.
Alright, do the Baha'i believe in YHWH? as such, the one god? If so they are Abrahamic. However the listing Babism as a form of Bahai is wrong because Bahai came after, they are a form of Babism. And please don't remove the Othodox bahai faith, there are more than 1000 believers, and they are significant in other ways, they stay. -- 20:37, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

1) The term "Abrahamic" defines the genealogical tree of Abraham's family. And as I said Bahá'u'lláh was a descedant of Abraham through his third wife Ketura and the Bab was a descendant of Muhammad so he is also a descendant of Abraham because Muhammad was a descendant of Abraham. 2) And yes, Bahá'ís believe in the God of the Bible - no religion could be more monotheistic than the Baha'i Faith. 3) The Orthodox Bahá'ís have claimed for forty years now that they have a membership of more than thousand believers, yet every insider knows there is only one "leader" somewhere in the US with a handful of very active followers on the Internet trying to tell everyone that they are the second largest group after the "Heterodox Bahá'is". Of course they are the second largest group, because they are the only one, there is no other group. So if I would create a website about my new Bahà'í sect and had I five followers could I make it to Wikipedia? --Saed 20:49, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * No, no, no, the term Abrahmic Religions is clearly defined in this particular case an this article, to be the believers in YHWH. That is what it is set at. It has notthing to do with geneology.

 * Alright, that is good, we are making progress, now we can list as an Abrahamic religion.

 * So if I would create a website about my new Bahà'í sect and had I five followers could I make it to Wikipedia? yes, probably. See here my personal list of small religions However unless you have more than insider information the orthodox group stays.

Okay, I can live with that :) regards, --Saed 21:40, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC) (PS The page about small religions is pretty impressive)

Jews who liked Christ
Just a comment to IZAK and everyone else. What do we do with the Jewish sects that consideredd Yeshua ben Joseph a Jewish prophet? IZAK removed them and put them into a separate category. I don't blame him, it is just that the Ebionites and the Elkasites were undeniably Jews. I reccomend removing the messianic Jews because they are not Jews any more but Christians and putting the Ebionites and Elkasites under the Jewish heading. Also, the Crypto-Judaism should be under the Judaism section plain and simple. Morisco goes under Islam, and Sabbatianism might want to exist under the uncategorized section. Discuss. -- 09:12, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hi Sunborn:
 * 1) Nothing in Judaism says that Jesus was a "prophet" as the era of prophecy ENDED with the writing of the Tanakh at the end of the Babylonian exile about five hundred years before Jesus' life (people use the word "prophet" loosely, but Judaism is very specific about what it means). Once the First Temple was destroyed, the era of prophecy is over as far as Judaism is concerned.
 * 2) The Ebionites and Elkasites were Jews by birth BUT their RELIGION was a rejection of any kind of normative Judaism. The Ebionites left little for us to know about them, but they were keen on Jesus which puts them outside of normative Judaism then and now. The Elkasites rejected the Torah and went on to attach themselves to a person Judaism regards as a renegade (Jesus)...yes, that is why Judaism and Christianity are separate ( and conflicting) religions.
 * 3) "Messianic Jews" claim to mix Judaism with Christological beliefs so that puts them in the "Judeo-Christian" category.
 * 4) Crypto-Judaism is NOT Judaism, for as far as Judaism is concerned, what they did (of course even under duress) amounts to negation of their faith i.e. heresy. As people they were generally treated kindly when they sought to return to normative Judaism (if they could make it), but Judaism never sanctioned their actions and did NOT recognize their "beliefs" and methodologies as any "form" or "brand" of Judaism.
 * 5) The Moriscos are a product of the mesh of Islam and Christianity, they practiced a type of "religion" (albeit under duress also) that was not in consonance with either Christianity or Islam, so it needs its own category.
 * 6) Most true Sabbateans were those who followed their leader into apostasy by accepting Islam (yet trying to retain vestiges of Judaism in secret). But it is true that he had followers that remained Jews outwardly and simply accepted him as the "true messiah" (even though he had apostasised to Islam, which makes their acceptance of him suspect and their status unclear theologically to Judaism).

Thanks for your feed-back. IZAK 09:38, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * The Ebionites and Elkasites were Jews by birth. Exactly, that is the criteria for being Jewish, born of a Jewish mother or a convert. They were not converts but they were born Jewish. Therefore they were a Jewish sect. They didn't accept him as the messiah, if they did, they would have been christians. This leaves them in the grey zone. Prophecy ENDED with the writing of the Tanakh, yeah, what are you to say their era of prophesy ended?

 * Christians by definition are any people who consider Christ the one and only Jewish messiah. Jews by definition are any people born of a Jewish mother or a convert. Muslims by definition are any people who consider Mohammed the last prophet of Allah. Just because the mythologies of the groups differ doesn't mean they deserve their own category. The groupings should be re-done according to these definitions. --

Firstly, a word about the usage of "mythologies" it's a loaded word that does not have the agreement of many people as it implies something derogatory to some. Of course, I must agree that there will be opportunities to re-define or re-categorize the belief/s of groups depending on the perspective. You have laid out different vantage points. However, Christians do not consider Jesus to be the "Jewish" messiah, they regard him as THE Messiah or THE "son of god" and even god incarnate via the "Trinity" (his "Jewishness" is usually ignored or suppressed). Jews are considered Jewish in the birth sense as coming from a halakhic Jewish mother, true, however, if and when a Jew adopts or proclaims allegiance to another faith or god that is considered outside of mainstream Judaism by Judaism itself (this is not "mythology", it is reality), then that Jew is no longer practicing Judaism and has become either an apostate or heretic as far as Judaism is concerned and in a spiritual sense it is as if that person had died (even though still physically alive) -- this is the view of classical Orthodox Judaism. Thus those like the Ebionites and Elkasites are not Jewish in the Jewish THEOLOGICAL sense at all (the converse is also true in the spiritual sense, that when a gentile abandons his religion and accepts Judaism and becomes a true convert, then he is no longer a gentile but a full Jew). Reform Judaism may have more liberal views seeing that almost half their following are married to gentiles at the present time. As for the Muslims, yes they accept Muhammed as the last "prophet" but the Dunmeh and the Sabbateans were also secretly keeping up their links to Judaism (as did the Marranos with the Catholics), so that puts them in a "class" of their own. As the old adage goes, "neither fish nor fowl !", and theologically BOTH religions would condemn their beliefs and they would be liable to excommunication from that faith or worse depending on the religious regime of the day. IZAK 08:39, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * This is a talk page, don't correct me on my loading of words. I chose that word, and according to the article it is just fine. In the Wikipedia all indigenous religions are listed as mythologies. if and when a Jew adopts or proclaims allegiance to another faith or god that is considered outside of mainstream Judaism by Judaism itself (this is not "mythology", it is reality), then that Jew is no longer practicing Judaism and has become either an apostate or heretic as far as Judaism This may and probably is true. However, the two (or three) groups in question, i.e. the Ebionites and Elkasites, did not change their divine allegence. They were simply heretic Jews (by your definition). I contest that at least the two aforementioned groups should be under the Jewish heading, as heritics or not. I can't stop thinking about the Mormons, they are quite the same in relation to Xianity (purposely loaded). They have other dogma in addition to mainstream Christology. Most of Christianity says no, they aren't Christians, however, from an outside definition they are still Christian no matter what the larger group says. --Saint Sunborn

Hi Sunborn: What you say and advance as "examples" is very risky intellectually.
 * 1) Firstly, I cannot speak for the Mormons, (by the way, I hear nowadays some of them get insulted by that name and now want to be known as "Latter Day Saints" --- oops, does that mean that you may be a Mormon or "Latter Day Saint" as that is your self-chosen name on Wikipedia?) Be that as it may, you cannot compare Mormons to Jews. Jews can be compared to so many groups that it can be dizzying, especially since the Monotheism of their Torah is what brought BOTH Christianity and then Islam into being. Without Judaism, there is NO Christianity or Islam, as all the premises of Christianity and Islam were established and expounded upon in the Torah of the Jews' Judaism first for a long time. So if you really start this business it would snowball into Judaism=almost everything.
 * 2) Secondly, I cannot fathom why you are so invested in these two minor obscure little cults that have been dead and gone for almost two thousand years? If one would want to dig up all the breakaways from mainstrean Judaism defined by the Torah, then one would come up with myriads of sick little theologically perverted and prostituted cults and sects that simply belong in the trash bin of history, and even treated as such, when it comes to shedding light on them in an encyclopedia that should have its eye on the total picture when digging up these long-gone, and no longer alive, movements that no-one but Jews for Jesus types would love because of their own agenda of wanting to make all the Jews they know into ""Latter Day Ebionites and Elkasites", which ain't gonna happen anytime soon or ever...
 * 3) Thirdly, who then is to say what the acceptable definitions of a Jews and Judaism are, or of any religion for that matter? Once the self-definitions are abandoned then we are not really dealing with that religion qua religion, but as something completely different, becoming in effect a different sort of "product" that's "packaged" for a "different market" (a sociologist looks at it one way, a philosopher another, a theologian other ways, and psychologists yet in other ways, each with their own little "note-books of self-centered definitions" unable to see what the "clients/cutomers/believers/natives/patients/victims/subjects/etc" are really up to ad nauseum). This in effect is a limited and limiting secular approach that trivializes religions and people of faith, and in the process loses and lacks the ability to understand them in their own terms for what they are according to the universal standards of the religious laws and customs of the pertinent religion.
 * 4) Fourthly, Jews and their faith are unique, because Judaism contains both definitions of FAITH and "nationality", or "peoplehood", and there are very subtle borders at work to know when a Jew is leaving the fold and alternately to recognise when an outsider seeks to join and should be accepted. What the Ebionites and Elkasites did through their adoption of beliefs that were universally rejected by ALL the Jewish scholarly and judicial authorities alive at that time, put them (i.e. the Ebionites and Elkasites) beyond the pale and they in effect "de-naturalized" themselves and "cancelled" their own membership willy-nilly by adopting Jesus or that which came in his wake regarding him as a messiah or redeemer of the Jews which he clearly was not for the Jewish people.
 * 5) Finally, (you may be correct on the whole...even though you want to classify the Ebionites and Elkasites as "nice" "Jews") that all these Jesus-believing groups should simply be classed as Christians, which is what Jesus-believers are called today in ALL their nuanced styles of accepting that fundamental tenet of the Christian religion.

Thank you. IZAK 08:40, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * No, I am not a mormon, I use Saint in the Catholic sense as a handle actually. Saint Sunborn is a character in a novel that I am writing, and he is no Mormon. I actually put that in my link in an attempt to offend you in some way, or at least make you uncomfortable. Saint Sir Sojun Sunborn is the full moniker.

 * So if you really start this business it would snowball into Judaism=almost everything. That is a slippery slope argument and therefore a logical fallacy and has no basis in anything.

 * I cannot fathom why you are so invested in these two minor obscure little cults. I am not so much as invested as interested in categorizing them. I love an accurate list, especially one about religion. See my user page for a more detailed explanation. It would be equally fair just to remove them or link to a separate page for all sick little theologically perverted and prostituted cults and sects that simply belong in the trash bin of history.

 * who then is to say what the acceptable definitions of a Jews and Judaism are, or of any religion for that matter Quite right.

 * I suggest we make this article on the major religions, and make another for all the tiny ones that don't affect anything in any way at this current moment in time. Will that fix everything? --The Sunborn

Hi Sunborn: Me "uncomfortable" with someone calling themselves a "saint", heavens no, why should I be? Anyhow it may be a good idea to have a list of "tiny" religions, but the only problem is that once they are cut of from the larger as a category, they will probably just float off into oblivion (and be ignored by bored readers.) I think I have spread out the "lay of the land" as far as Judaism goes here on this particular list. IZAK 09:26, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * That is true. However, as precendent goes on this list the number of sects that you added is quite large. If we did the same for Christianity we would have some 10,000 entries, no joke. We could have two lists, one more for the important religions and sects (as the current version is or should be), and one for all sects, denominations, traditions, religions and whatever and be very long and complete. That actually sounds like a good idea if you want to alliviate bordom. --The Sunborn

You do have a good point. But Judaism has always been "maddeningly complex". I may try to trim the list at some point. IZAK 11:19, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Just an FYI .. List of religions has Sufri listed .. it's Sufi
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=sufri&btnG=Search has nothing abou religon while http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=sufi&btnG=Google+Search does.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
Prince Jean, Duke of Guise

Prince Jean of Orléans, Duke of Guise (Jean Pierre Clément Marie; 4 September 1874 – 25 August 1940), was the third son and youngest child of Prince Robert, Duke of Chartres (1840–1910), grandson of Prince Ferdinand Philippe and great-grandson of Louis Philippe I, King of the French. His mother was Françoise of Orléans, daughter of François, Prince of Joinville, and Princess Francisca of Brazil. He was the Orléanist pretender to the throne of France as Jean III.

Biography
In 1926 at the death of his cousin and brother-in-law Philippe, Duke of Orléans, claimant to the defunct throne of France as "Philip VIII", Jean was recognised by his Orléanist supporters as titular king of France with the name "Jean III".

Jean was an amateur historian and archeologist, who lived with his family in a large farm near Rabat, Morocco. Following his "ascension" as Orléanist pretender, he and his eldest son were legally forbidden from ever entering France again, due to an 1886 edict which condemned the heads of Bourbon & Bonaparte dynasties, as well as their heirs apparent, to exile.

Jean died in Larache, Morocco, in 1940. He was succeeded as Orléanist claimant to the defunct French throne by his only son, Henri d' Orléans, Count of Paris.

Marriage and issue
In 1899, Jean married his first cousin, Isabelle d'Orléans (1878–1961). She was the younger sister of Philip VIII, and the daughter of Philip VII and Marie Isabelle d'Orléans.

They had four children:

 * Isabelle d'Orléans (1900–1983). First married in 1923 to Marie Hervé Jean Bruno, Count of Harcourt (1899–1930) and then to Prince Pierre Murat in 1934.
 * Françoise d'Orléans (1902–1953). Married to Christopher of Greece and Denmark in 1929. He was a son of George I of Greece and Grand Duchess Olga Constantinovna of Russia. They were parents of Prince Michael of Greece and Denmark.
 * Anne d'Orléans (1906–1986). She married Amedeo, 3rd Duke of Aosta in 1927.
 * Henri d'Orléans, Count of Paris (1908–1999). Married to Princess Isabelle of Orléans-Braganza.

title: Prince Jean, Duke of Guise


text:
The Time Traveller (fanzine)

The Time Traveller was one of the earliest science fiction fanzines, started in 1932. It grew out of a New York City fan club called the Scienceers and was started by Mort Weisinger, Julius Schwartz, Allen Glasser, and Forrest J Ackerman. Initially, Glasser was the "Editor" of the zine, Weisinger "Associate Editor," Schwartz "Managing Editor," and Ackerman "Contributing Editor." (Three of the four editors were 15–17 years old at the time. Allen Glasser was born in 1908.)

According to SF historian Sam Moskowitz, The Time Traveller was the first fanzine to be devoted exclusively to science fiction. It went through a series of incarnations and title switches (Science Fiction Digest; Fantasy Magazine) before it ceased publication in January 1937. The zine's chief claim to fame was its publication of a 17-part round-robin story called Cosmos (July 1933 – December 1934), each part written by a different writer. The roster of Cosmos writers included many of the leading lights of SF, fantasy, horror, and adventure fiction in that era, including A. Merritt, E.E. "Doc" Smith, Edmond Hamilton, John W. Campbell, E. Hoffmann Price, and Otis Adelbert Kline. The others involved were David H. Keller, P. Schuyler Miller, Arthur J. Burks, Ralph Milne Farley, "Eando Binder," Francis Flagg, Lloyd Arthur Eshbach, Bob Olsen, J. Harvey Haggard, and Abner J. Gelula; Raymond A. Palmer wrote one installment under his own name, and another under the pseudonym "Rae Winters." Hamilton composed the final episode of the serial, and finished with a bang, destroying the planets Pluto, Neptune, and Uranus with an atomic disintegrator ray.

title: The Time Traveller (fanzine)


text:
Horn antenna

A horn antenna or microwave horn is an antenna that consists of a flaring metal waveguide shaped like a horn to direct radio waves in a beam. Horns are widely used as antennas at UHF and microwave frequencies, above 300 MHz. They are used as feed antennas (called feed horns) for larger antenna structures such as parabolic antennas, as standard calibration antennas to measure the gain of other antennas, and as directive antennas for such devices as radar guns, automatic door openers,   and microwave radiometers. Their advantages are moderate directivity, broad bandwidth, low losses, and simple construction and adjustment.

One of the first horn antennas was constructed in 1897 by Bengali-Indian radio researcher Jagadish Chandra Bose in his pioneering experiments with microwaves. The modern horn antenna was invented independently in 1938 by Wilmer Barrow and G. C. Southworth      The development of radar in World War II stimulated horn research to design feed horns for radar antennas. The corrugated horn invented by Kay in 1962 has become widely used as a feed horn for microwave antennas such as satellite dishes and radio telescopes.

An advantage of horn antennas is that since they have no resonant elements, they can operate over a wide range of frequencies, a wide bandwidth. The usable bandwidth of horn antennas is typically of the order of 10:1, and can be up to 20:1 (for example allowing it to operate from 1 GHz to 20 GHz). The input impedance is slowly varying over this wide frequency range, allowing low voltage standing wave ratio (VSWR) over the bandwidth. The gain of horn antennas ranges up to 25 dBi, with 10–20 dBi being typical.

Description

A horn antenna is used to transmit radio waves from a waveguide (a metal pipe used to carry radio waves) out into space, or collect radio waves into a waveguide for reception. It typically consists of a short length of rectangular or cylindrical metal tube (the waveguide), closed at one end, flaring into an open-ended conical or pyramidal shaped horn on the other end. The radio waves are usually introduced into the waveguide by a coaxial cable attached to the side, with the central conductor projecting into the waveguide to form a quarter-wave monopole antenna. The waves then radiate out the horn end in a narrow beam. In some equipment the radio waves are conducted between the transmitter or receiver and the antenna by a waveguide; in this case the horn is attached to the end of the waveguide. In outdoor horns, such as the feed horns of satellite dishes, the open mouth of the horn is often covered by a plastic sheet transparent to radio waves, to exclude moisture.

How it works

A horn antenna serves the same function for electromagnetic waves that an acoustical horn does for sound waves in a musical instrument such as a trumpet. It provides a gradual transition structure to match the impedance of a tube to the impedance of free space, enabling the waves from the tube to radiate efficiently into space.

If a simple open-ended waveguide is used as an antenna, without the horn, the sudden end of the conductive walls causes an abrupt impedance change at the aperture, from the wave impedance in the waveguide to the impedance of free space, (about 377 Ω). When radio waves travelling through the waveguide hit the opening, this impedance-step reflects a significant fraction of the wave energy back down the guide toward the source, so that not all of the power is radiated. This is similar to the reflection at an open-ended transmission line or a boundary between optical mediums with a low and high index of refraction, like at a glass surface. The reflected waves cause standing waves in the waveguide, increasing the SWR, wasting energy and possibly overheating the transmitter. In addition, the small aperture of the waveguide (less than one wavelength) causes significant diffraction of the waves issuing from it, resulting in a wide radiation pattern without much directivity.

To improve these poor characteristics, the ends of the waveguide are flared out to form a horn. The taper of the horn changes the impedance gradually along the horn's length. This acts like an impedance matching transformer, allowing most of the wave energy to radiate out the end of the horn into space, with minimal reflection. The taper functions similarly to a tapered transmission line, or an optical medium with a smoothly varying refractive index. In addition, the wide aperture of the horn projects the waves in a narrow beam.

The horn shape that gives minimum reflected power is an exponential taper. Exponential horns are used in special applications that require minimum signal loss, such as satellite antennas and radio telescopes. However conical and pyramidal horns are most widely used, because they have straight sides and are easier to design and fabricate.

Radiation pattern
The waves travel down a horn as spherical wavefronts, with their origin at the apex of the horn, a point called the phase center. The pattern of electric and magnetic fields at the aperture plane at the mouth of the horn, which determines the radiation pattern, is a scaled-up reproduction of the fields in the waveguide. Because the wavefronts are spherical, the phase increases smoothly from the edges of the aperture plane to the center, because of the difference in length of the center point and the edge points from the apex point. The difference in phase between the center point and the edges is called the phase error. This phase error, which increases with the flare angle, reduces the gain and increases the beamwidth, giving horns wider beamwidths than similar-sized plane-wave antennas such as parabolic dishes.

At the flare angle, the radiation of the beam lobe is down about 20 dB from its maximum value.

As the size of a horn (expressed in wavelengths) is increased, the phase error increases, giving the horn a wider radiation pattern. Keeping the beamwidth narrow requires a longer horn (smaller flare angle) to keep the phase error constant. The increasing phase error limits the aperture size of practical horns to about 15 wavelengths; larger apertures would require impractically long horns. This limits the gain of practical horns to about 1000 (30 dBi) and the corresponding minimum beamwidth to about 5–10°.

Types

Below are the main types of horn antennas. Horns can have different flare angles as well as different expansion curves (elliptic, hyperbolic, etc.) in the E-field and H-field directions, making possible a wide variety of different beam profiles.
 * Pyramidal horn (fig. a) – a horn antenna with the horn in the shape of a four-sided pyramid, with a rectangular cross section. They are a common type, used with rectangular waveguides, and radiate linearly polarized radio waves.
 * Sectoral horn – A pyramidal horn with only one pair of sides flared and the other pair parallel. It produces a fan-shaped beam, which is narrow in the plane of the flared sides, but wide in the plane of the narrow sides.  These types are often used as feed horns for wide search radar antennas.
 * E-plane horn (fig. b) – A sectoral horn flared in the direction of the electric or E-field in the waveguide.
 * H-plane horn (fig. c) – A sectoral horn flared in the direction of the magnetic or H-field in the waveguide.
 * Conical horn (fig. d) – A horn in the shape of a cone, with a circular cross section. They are used with cylindrical waveguides.
 * Exponential horn (fig. e) – A horn with curved sides, in which the separation of the sides increases as an exponential function of length. Also called a scalar horn, they can have pyramidal or conical cross sections. Exponential horns have minimum internal reflections, and almost constant impedance and other characteristics over a wide frequency range.  They are used in applications requiring high performance, such as feed horns for communication satellite antennas and radio telescopes.
 * Corrugated horn – A horn with parallel slots or grooves, small compared with a wavelength, covering the inside surface of the horn, transverse to the axis. Corrugated horns have wider bandwidth and smaller sidelobes and cross-polarization, and are widely used as feed horns for satellite dishes and radio telescopes.
 * Dual-mode conical horn – (The Potter horn ) This horn can be used to replace the corrugated horn for use at sub-mm wavelengths where the corrugated horn is lossy and difficult to fabricate.
 * Diagonal horn – This simple dual-mode horn superficially looks like a pyramidal horn with a square output aperture. On closer inspection, however, the square output aperture is seen to be rotated 45° relative to the waveguide. These horns are typically machined into split blocks and used at sub-mm wavelengths.
 * Ridged horn – A pyramidal horn with ridges or fins attached to the inside of the horn, extending down the center of the sides.  The fins lower the cutoff frequency, increasing the antenna's bandwidth.
 * Septum horn – A horn which is divided into several subhorns by metal partitions (septums) inside, attached to opposite walls.
 * Aperture-limited horn – a long narrow horn, long enough so the phase error is a negligible fraction of a wavelength, so it essentially radiates a plane wave. It has an aperture efficiency of 1.0 so it gives the maximum gain and minimum beamwidth for a given aperture size.    The gain is not affected by the length but only limited by diffraction at the aperture.  Used as feed horns in radio telescopes and other high-resolution antennas.
 * Open Boundary Quad-Ridged Horn Antenna – This horn antenna is a special type of horn antenna designed as a four-pronged structure with open boundaries. It covers width the frequency range and polarization is dual Linear.
 * Open Boundary Double-Ridged Horn Antenna – This kind of antenna is similar to an open boundary quad-ridged horn Antenna. It was designed to operate over a wide frequency range, low VSWR, and high gain.

Optimum horn

For a given frequency and horn length, there is some flare angle that gives minimum reflection and maximum gain. The internal reflections in straight-sided horns come from the two locations along the wave path where the impedance changes abruptly; the mouth or aperture of the horn, and the throat where the sides begin to flare out. The amount of reflection at these two sites varies with the flare angle of the horn (the angle the sides make with the axis). In narrow horns with small flare angles most of the reflection occurs at the mouth of the horn. The gain of the antenna is low because the small mouth approximates an open-ended waveguide, with a large impedance step. As the angle is increased, the reflection at the mouth decreases rapidly and the antenna's gain increases. In contrast, in wide horns with flare angles approaching 90° most of the reflection is at the throat. The horn's gain is again low because the throat approximates an open-ended waveguide. As the angle is decreased, the amount of reflection at this site drops, and the horn's gain again increases.

This discussion shows that there is some flare angle between 0° and 90° which gives maximum gain and minimum reflection. This is called the optimum horn. Most practical horn antennas are designed as optimum horns. In a pyramidal horn, the dimensions that give an optimum horn are:

 * $$a_E = \sqrt{2 \lambda L_E} \qquad a_H = \sqrt{3 \lambda L_H}$$

For a conical horn, the dimensions that give an optimum horn are:

 * $$d = \sqrt{3 \lambda L}$$

where
 * aE is the width of the aperture in the E-field direction
 * aH is the width of the aperture in the H-field direction
 * LE is the slant height of the side in the E-field direction
 * LH is the slant height of the side in the H-field direction
 * d is the diameter of the cylindrical horn aperture
 * L is the slant height of the cone from the apex
 * λ is the wavelength

An optimum horn does not yield maximum gain for a given aperture size. That is achieved with a very long horn (an aperture limited horn). The optimum horn yields maximum gain for a given horn length. Tables showing dimensions for optimum horns for various frequencies are given in microwave handbooks.

Gain
Horns have very little loss, so the directivity of a horn is roughly equal to its gain. The gain G of a pyramidal horn antenna (the ratio of the radiated power intensity along its beam axis to the intensity of an isotropic antenna with the same input power) is:

 * $$G = \frac{4 \pi A}{\lambda^2} e_A $$

For conical horns, the gain is:

 * $$G = \left ( \frac{\pi d}{\lambda} \right )^2 e_A $$

where
 * A is the area of the aperture,
 * d is the aperture diameter of a conical horn
 * λ is the wavelength,
 * eA is a dimensionless parameter between 0 and 1 called the aperture efficiency,

The aperture efficiency ranges from 0.4 to 0.8 in practical horn antennas. For optimum pyramidal horns, eA = 0.511., while for optimum conical horns eA = 0.522. So an approximate figure of 0.5 is often used. The aperture efficiency increases with the length of the horn, and for aperture-limited horns is approximately unity.

Horn-reflector antenna
A type of antenna that combines a horn with a parabolic reflector is known as a Hogg-horn, or horn-reflector antenna, invented by Alfred C. Beck and Harald T. Friis in 1941  and further developed by David C. Hogg at Bell Labs in 1961. It is also referred to as the "sugar scoop" due to its characteristic shape. It consists of a horn antenna with a reflector mounted in the mouth of the horn at a 45 degree angle so the radiated beam is at right angles to the horn axis. The reflector is a segment of a parabolic reflector, and the focus of the reflector is at the apex of the horn, so the device is equivalent to a parabolic antenna fed off-axis. The advantage of this design over a standard parabolic antenna is that the horn shields the antenna from radiation coming from angles outside the main beam axis, so its radiation pattern has very small sidelobes. Also, the aperture isn't partially obstructed by the feed and its supports, as with ordinary front-fed parabolic dishes, allowing it to achieve aperture efficiencies of 70% as opposed to 55–60% for front-fed dishes. The disadvantage is that it is far larger and heavier for a given aperture area than a parabolic dish, and must be mounted on a cumbersome turntable to be fully steerable. This design was used for a few radio telescopes and communication satellite ground antennas during the 1960s. Its largest use, however, was as fixed antennas for microwave relay links in the AT&T Long Lines microwave network. Since the 1970s this design has been superseded by shrouded parabolic dish antennas, which can achieve equally good sidelobe performance with a lighter more compact construction. Probably the most photographed and well-known example is the 15 m Holmdel Horn Antenna at Bell Labs in Holmdel, New Jersey, with which Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson discovered cosmic microwave background radiation in 1965, for which they won the 1978 Nobel Prize in Physics. Another more recent horn-reflector design is the cass-horn, which is a combination of a horn with a cassegrain parabolic antenna using two reflectors.

title: Horn antenna