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Talk:Bowl Championship Series

More detail needed: when a BCS Conference champion is in the title game
In the "BCS bowl games" section, it says, "Unless their champion is involved in the BCS National Championship game, the conference tie-ins are as follows...." But it doesn't explicitly say what happens when a BCS conference champion is involved in the national championship. I'm assuming that the spot left by the BCS conference champ is replaced with an at-large bid. E.g., this year, if USC--the pac10 champ--were to make it to the title game, then the pac10 champ slot would be replaced with an at-large bid, and not, say, the pac10 runner up Cal..

Southern Cal-->USC
I changed all the references to "Southern Cal" to instead say USC, as the last section in the USC Trojans football page notes, under the heading "Correct terminology." --Impaciente 12:35, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Computer Rankings
Does someone want to tackle how the computer ratings are being handled? It seems to be an interesting focus of controversy right now. And I'm a California student :) Goodralph 02:26, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Source for Statement
I'm wondering about this statement from the article: "There was also an incident in which two AP voters from Texas were reprimanded by their newspapers for putting Auburn ahead of Texas." I never heard anything about this at the time. I've done a Google search but turned up no evidence. Does anyone have a source for this, please? Johntex\talk 21:35, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

2004-05 formula as applied to 2003-04 pre-bowl standings
In the section about the new 2004-05 formula, the article has listed LSU's AP and coaches poll numbers but attributed them to USC (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/rankingsindex?pollId=null&weekNumber=17&seasonYear=2003). According to the ESPN archive, those figures were LSU's totals.

The computer rankings they cite do belong to USC. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/stewart_mandel/07/15/bcs.explainer/

Also, in the 2003-04 season controversy section, the article had that USC would have been an "indisputable" number one and there may have been controversy over the number two spot. It was LSU that was number one and USC narrowly over OU (http://www.bcsfootball.org/news.cfm?headline=40). Boogieone711

"also 11-1"
I modified a statement which claims that USC was "also 11-1", implying that OU and LSU were 11-1. Those teams were 12-1, so I made note of that fact.

New logo
I recently saw during the Seahawks-Panthers telecast that Fox (in addition to getting the TV rights for the next few years) had designed a new BCS logo with their logo in it. As soon as it comes up on Google Images could someone (and this does include me) put it up?--ChicosBailBonds 02:32, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Unoffical?
Isn't the BCS championship game the offical NCAA Football D-1 championship game? I thought that the Crystal Football was the Trophy given to the National Champion, and that's given to the BCS Championchip game. False Prophet 19:08, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * No, its not official. As we say at NCAA Division I-A national football championship, "The NCAA Division I-A national football championship is the only Division I-A NCAA-sponsored sport without an organized tournament to determine its champion.".  If you look at the NCAA page on football championships, they don't mention I-A.  If you look at the history tab for past championships they list BCS as a  "selecting organization", and they give them the top billing, but they continue to list other "selecting organizations" as well. You will see that they list 2 champions for 2003 based upon their being no consensus for either USC or LSU.  So, the crytal football is the BCS trophy, given by the BCS.  It is a "mythical national championship" in the sense that it is not officially endorsed as the definitive champion by the NCAA.  This situation will likely persist until such time as a reasonable playoff system is introduced. Johntex\talk 19:32, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for clearing that up Johntex, I'll use that info to keep that true on other pages. False Prophet 19:35, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

It is irrelevant whether or not the NCAA recognizes anything. The BCS contract that binds each member institution to its results was signed by all BCS conferences and schools, including the two "adversaries" in the 2003 conflict. Obviously the voters in the AP poll are going to insist on its continued relevance, but after each BCS National Championship game, that relevance extends only to their opinions as to the Nos. 2-25 teams. One of the main reasons the BCS emerged was the historical absurdities that often occurred in the human polls now so revered by the BCS critics. Its purpose is to correct the recurring problems in the human polls. Since the advent of this admittedly imperfect BCS system, the AP poll has been relegated to the status of the Davey O'Brien award for the best college QB. If the Heisman Trophy goes to a QB and the O'Brien goes to a different QB that same year, the latter cannot claim the Heisman. Similarly, the team that wins on the field the crystal football is, by contract, the only true National Champion. Other "O'Brien trophy winners" can claim such status, but that does not make it true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.222.37.21 (talk) 00:16, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Except that unlike the O'Brien Award, you have regular media (who are admittedly biased since they're the voters :-) ) who claim, as above, that the AP is just as official as the other, and that 2003 saw a split national championship. LSU and USC both are given credit.
 * I would agree that the BCS champion is the true national champion, as far as they are concerned - more so now with the AP not part of it. However, the AP champ is still the "mythical national champion, just as it has always been. it's just that the "mythical" part of the AP is more noticeable now than ever before.63.3.19.1 22:01, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

The people who vote on the O'Brien Award are just as convinced they have recognized the best CFB QB as the AP pollsters think they have recognized the best team. Their views (both O'Brien and AP voters) are irrelevant to the agree-upon processes at hand. Everybody agrees that the Heisman is the top individual award. Period. And every CFB team and conference agrees (by signing the contract) that the BCS NCG decides the sole NC. You see, in August 2003, an AP reporter (of all people) asked Pete Carroll what his team's goal was for the season. Carroll responded as expected: "We want to go to the Sugar Bowl and win the National Championship." He said nothing about the O'Brien-like certificate of approval by the AP. Why? Because he knew (and all CFB coaches, ADs and administrators know) that the BCS contract they all signed is top dog. Period. Some people say perception is reality, but if you follow that path, you end up in the Davey O'Brien wing of CF. They all signed the contract, they fight for those two NCG berths, and the winner of that game is the NC. By contract. The AP voters have been demoted ... by CFB itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.222.37.21 (talk) 00:44, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * What you fail to mention is that the Associated Press never agreed to be part of the BCS and threatened legal action to get out of its computation. The AP championship has been awarded for many more years, and will be awarded long after the BCS bites the dust. Z1perlster (talk) 02:43, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

FSU would still be qualified
the BCS official website(which you have linked up) states that

A)a champion from the non-auto bid conferences(IE, the MWC, CUSA, WAC, MAC, Sunbelt) gains a bid automatically by finishing in the top12 of the BCS standings or

B) gains a bid automatically by finishing in the top 16 of the BCS if a BCS conference champion finishes lower than said team.

however it is never stated nor implied in any language that the lower ranked BCS conference Champ is to relinquish its automatic bid in place the non-auto Champion. Therefore, if those rules were applied to the 2005-2006 season, TCU would have qualified but Florida State would have remained in the BCS also.
 * After another edit of someone to try and suggest that someone would be selected instead of another conference champion, I believe quoting the BCS website on how this works is the best explanation. I have added this and replaced all previous info on the subject. If someone wants to rewrite it so it's not a direct quote, but as long as it says the same thing, please do. -- MECU ≈ talk 13:39, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

BCS-sucks.com external link
I do not believe this article needs the link to BCS-sucks.com. I have removed the link twice. If you believe this link needs to exist, please provide justification here. -- MECU ≈ talk 16:25, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

 * No problem. Just thought it was relevant as a leading anti-BCS website.  Is there any Wikipedia page where the link should go? TexasDawg 21:48, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I don't think so. I looked at the website and don't see any value of it. It doesn't present any well formed argument and just reposts news with some off-hand comments. And how can you back up the claim that it is the leading anti-BCS website? If you wanted to expand or create a section on opponents to the BCS or alternatives to the BCS, I think it would work quite well in the article as long as it remains NPOV and cites sources for the claims. Then, this website might belong in there. -- MECU ≈ talk 00:25, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe at least one or two anti-BCS pages should be listed. BCS-sucks.com is a fine one as far as I'm concerned, though I don't mind if someone finds a different one or two they think are more informative.  Regardless, we should link to some BCS criticism in the name of balance.  Criticism of the BCS is a significant viewpoint that should be represented in the external links. Johntex\talk 07:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I just tried to connect to www.bcs-sucks.com and couldn't. I'm fine with criticism of the BCS, but if I recall when I looked at it back in August, it didn't have much value and mostly had advertisements. Perhaps it has changed, if I could connect to it, I'd be willing to look at it again. -- MECU ≈ talk 13:35, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It does not seem to be working for me either, which is a bad sign for using them. Let's see if we can find a better site. Johntex\talk 13:57, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

 * This addition that was added but then reverted as linkspam I think is actually decent. The site looks new and doesn't have much information, but it's clean and presents a counter argument (though with not many words) and a proposal. I'd be for including it in Wikipedia. -- MECU ≈ talk 13:17, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Cite needed
I don't think this revert was needed:, the before we add that information, we need to cite a source to provide that information, otherwise it would be original research. If you can provide the source, add it in and cite it please. -- MECU ≈ talk 00:19, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

"AP National Championship Game"
This term has no meaning. The AP awards a championship, but unlike the BCS, it does not purport to have a "championship game." What is it you are trying to do here?

BIG EAST NEED RESPECT

 * I was reading the schedule for 2006-07 and where the hell does the Big East champion fit in this? --Kevmicester2000 02:54, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The Big East Champion is clearly listed under "at large teams". This is because (unlike the champions from conferences like the Pac-10, Big-10 or Big-12) the Big East Champion is not tied to a certain bowl by contract.  If you don't like that, I suggest you take it up with the Big East and tell them you want them to negotiate a bowl-tie-in contract for their conference champion. Johntex\talk 07:14, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Sorry my bad I thought they were under an atomatic BCS berth --Kevmicester2000 03:24, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * No prob. They do have an automatic berth - it just isn't specifically tied to a particular bowl.  They are guaranteed to play in a BCS bowl, just not guaranteed which one it will be.  I hope that helps - sorry if my first reply was harsh. Johntex\talk 06:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

"BCS Buster" Question
I'm wondering if either the definition in the article needs to be expanded upon, of if Notre Dame should be mentioned in that section. The article just says it "refers to any team not from a BCS conference that manages to earn a spot in a BCS bowl game." ND isn't in a conference, but they have been to BCS bowl games, or are they not counted as a BCS Buster because of their special contracts or whatever? TBIRallySport 04:24, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * That is a very interesting question. Since "BCS Buster" is a colloquial term, it is hard to define the term precisely.  I think the answer is "yes" because Notre Dame is not from any BCS conference and therefore is somewhat "outside" the system of BCS bowls and conference tie-ins. Johntex\talk 04:36, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree. Since ND has it's own tie-in to the BCS, I would say they're in their own conference, per se. I would say BCS Buster would be "Any team that doesn't have an automatic chance to earn a BCS spot." ND Does, all the BCS conferences do too. Boise State (MWC) does not, they are a BCS Buster. -- MECU ≈ talk 15:13, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * But the rule that allows Notre Dame into the BCS bowls is technically not specific for Notre Dame. While I'm sure they had Notre Dame in mind, the rule covers any independent.  Therefore, if Navy or Army met the criteria, they would come in under the rule and be a BCS Buster - same as Notre Dame. Johntex\talk 23:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * bcsfootball.org states otherwise -- "4. Notre Dame will have an automatic berth if it is in the top eight of the final BCS Standings." Majin Izlude  talk  00:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I actually did think that ND had their own written rule... they have their own contract with the BCS. Army and Navy don't and would have to go under the higher-than conference championship ranking (greater then #16) or top 12 to get in, which is what I believe BCS Buster rules applies to. -- MECU ≈ talk 03:26, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Not only does ND have a special rule, but their Athletic Director, Kevin White, has equal standing with the Conference commissioners as a BCS board representative. See here AU Tiger ʃ talk /work 06:25, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected. They do have a rule just for themselves.  In that case then, they should be considered part of the BCS, and not a BCS Buster, I think. Johntex\talk 15:12, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Wondering if saying that Boise State is a BCS Buster due to the new rules. Boise State ended with a rank high enough to make it into the BCS even with the old rules. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.42.51.39 (talk • contribs)
 * Returning to this issue: above Johntex mentions it is a colloquial term which is a key issue - the whole section strikes me as Original Research (at worst) and is certainly unreferenced (at best). In addition to the ND Rule and the new automatic qualifier rules for the mid-major conferences, the mid-majors also have representation in BCS governance now (see my link above) so no mid-major that makes it in can technically be described as a "BCS Buster" now. I'm inclined to urge deletion of the section altogether especially if additional (well-sourced) info is added to the 2006 Changes section about the issues that drove the change to include automatic qualication of a midmajor rep. AU Tiger  ʃ talk /work 00:30, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I think it should be kept, if sourced. I would say Boise State is a BCS Buster since it's not from a BCS conference and they're playing in a bowl game. A BCS Buster is one that busts into the BCS despite the heavy odds (and system setup designed to prevent it). But until it's sourced.... -- MECU ≈ talk 02:45, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

 * You mean this year? Unfortunately, I think you're operating under the old concept of what is a BCS conference. The original BCS conferences are now the "Automatic Qualifier Conferences".  According to the official BCS site, The BCS is managed by the commissioners of the 11 NCAA Division I-A conferences... and It is also not an exclusive system that rewards only a few. The University of Utah demonstrated in 2005 that a team from a conference without an annual automatic berth can have access to a BCS bowl game.  Also, this page lists the WAC (and all the others) as a "BCS Conference".  Finally, there is now a formal qualifying system for determining those "automatic qualifying conferences": Mathematical standards of performance will be applied to determine the number of conferences whose champions will automatically qualify for a BCS game after the 2008 and 2009 regular seasons. The champions of no fewer than five conferences and no more than seven conferences will have annual automatic berths in the BCS bowl games.  AU Tiger  ʃ talk /work 05:57, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

 * They can say all the marketing they want, but when 9 of the 10 BCS game spots go to "BCS Conference" Teams, and it required a non-BCS Conference team to go undefeated whereas several BCS conference teams have two losses... then there is a systematic exclusionary process. But, that's my opinion. -- MECU ≈ talk 13:34, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with Mecu. The term is in common usage and still has a valid meaning even with the changes to the BCS.  We should keep the section and work on references. Johntex\talk 16:01, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

 * While the terms "non-BCS" and "BCS buster" are common, they are technically incorrect according to the current BCS rules. Under the current rules, can an independent such as Navy ever make it to a BCS bowl? My interpretation is that if they were ranked 1 through 3, yes, and possibly if ranked 4 if current rule 5 didn't apply.reamon 08 Jan 2009 —Preceding undated comment was added at 19:03, 8 January 2009 (UTC).

Michigan Fans
02:37, 4 December 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.121.58.6 (talk • contribs).
 * Sigh* Let the mass of Michigan fans editing this page begin. Already there has been at least one. Hopefully they can get over it....

Ha! An unsigned dig at Michigan fans. *Sigh* let the mass of Nebraska fans editing this page begin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.124.149.110 (talk) 04:28, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Math Typo
In the section 2004-05 Formula, LSU's number in the coaches poll should be 99.4, not 96.3 (1516/1525)

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Barry Wright, III (talk • contribs) 22:50, 14 December 2006 (UTC).
 * Change made. -- MECU ≈ talk 00:42, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

-Also, it states at the bottom that the independent record is 0-2 in bcs bowls when in fact it is actually 0-3. Notre dame also lost the 2000 fiesta bowl to Oregon State.

Potential College Playoff System
Flaws? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brian.J.Grewe (talk • contribs)
 * Please note, this is a talk page for discussing the article in question, in this case, Bowl Championship Series. It is not a message board for generally discussing the topic.  BigDT 17:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

 * (edit conflict)Aside from the fact I like the BCS, er, at least I like the value of the regular season being the playoffs, this isn't really what Wikipedia is about. We're an encyclopedia, and there is actually a policy against original research. So unless your can provide some sources about the above, we couldn't include it in any article. Further, I don't think talking about possible playoff systems is very encyclopedic. If you simply wanted a forum to post your ideas that will get seen (do talk pages get looked at by search bots?), you have accomplished that. I doubt it will have much impact, as any determination for a playoff system by the BCS/NCAA folks would be most likely made up by them. For better or worse. But, welcome to Wikipedia and I hope an obvious college football fan like yourself will stick around and help us improve Wikipedia's coverage of college football! -- MECU ≈ talk 17:24, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I apologize if I stepped on anyone's toes regarding my original essay on college football playoffs. I will remove if it is unuseful. I figured if I put it on a talk page, people may read it, comment, get a dialogue going. If this is the wrong place to do this, then please, remove it.Brian.J.Grewe 21:45, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Would not Wikinfo (http://www.internet-encyclopedia.org/index.php/Main_Page) be an approriate place for the above essay? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.75.63.123 (talk) 07:20, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Section on BCS Controversies
The last part of paragraph two should include a statement to the effect that even though Ohio State and Boise State were the only two undeated teams in 2006, under the BCS system they did not play for the national championship.

Dsanders60 04:54, 27 December 2006 (UTC)Doug Sanders

 * I tried to fix this. Please let me know if y'all think this is OK.--Happysomeone (talk) 01:22, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm amazed that no mention of the controversial nature of the BCS system is mentioned in the introduction to the main page. This is not POV, it is simply citing a large body of the article that specifically deals with the on-going problems of this system. I will make a small edit to balance the intro. Happysomeone 17:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Why no mention of the FACT that the NCAA sanctions playoff tournaments in all other Football divisions (I-AA, II and III)? That fact alone flies in the face of every single arguement that the BCS supporters tout. This should be added.

Update Bowl Chart
There is a bunch of changes to the number of bcs bowl game wins and loses.

 * Right now all the appearance numbers should be correct and already include the games that are still yet to be played. The record for each school only shows the games that have already been played.  I updated the results of the Rose Bowl for both USC and Michigan.  After the Fiesta Bowl tonight I will update the table if I'm still awake.  Otherwise I'm sure someone else will take the initiative.

BCS Controversies Section
The 2003/04 section should include the fact that LSU is the only BCS champion to not receive a unanimous #1 vote in the Coaches Poll. The BCS contract required that all coaches vote the BCS champion #1, but 3 coaches broke rank and voted USC #1 anyway. Dude202 04:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you have a reference or source for this? IF not, please find one. If so, add it in. -- MECU ≈ talk 14:24, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I found 5 online sources. I would also assume that the final Coaches Poll from the 2003-04 season is in the ESPN encyclopedia of college football.
 * I am putting the first reference in the actual article. The rest are here so that if any of the links go bad, someone might have an easier time finding the sources than I just had. Dude202 06:34, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

4th paragraph, 2nd sentence:

"...are not given automatic births to BCS bowls..." should actually be "...are not given automatic berths in BCS bowls"

I believe  berths in would be the correct usage. Since a berth is similar to position in meaning, I would use in as opposed to to. Usually when one is given a position, it is usually in something instead of on something.

I would change it myself, rather than bug everyone about a simple homonym/grammar issue, but I am a newly registered user.

Regards. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Flosofl (talk • contribs) 18:58, 2 January 2007 (UTC).

forgot to sign it the first time, sorry

Flosofl 19:00, 2 January 2007 (UTC)Flosofl  (told you I was new)
 * I've made the change, except I left it "berths to", because I believe they get a berth to a bowl game and not in a bowl game. Only a few more days before you can edit it yourself. (We had to do that because of vandalism, nothing personal) Welcome to Wikipedia! -- MECU ≈ talk 20:57, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is a fact that, in 2003/04, LSU was the only BCS champion to not receive a unanimous #1 vote in the Coaches Poll. But this is a false controversy. The winner of the BCS NCG is awarded the NC Trophy, the crystal football. THAT is the sole true NC award. Why? Because all of the teams, conferences and administrators AGREED, by contract, that it goes to the true NC. The two polls, which during the season provide opinions about relative team strength, become irrelevant with respect to the NC after the two BCS title game participants are chosen. After the NCG, the polls do provide a useful function: determining Nos. 2-25. But with respect to the NC, whether some coaches stuck to their contract carries no weight (it was a meaningless gesture even though somebody hopefully explained to those coaches later on the concept of a contract). I know some people still believe the polls carry some gravitas after the NCG, but the participants (the teams and coaches) should graciously decline such "awards." They signed the contract, they should stick to it. So OK, you can mention that "LSU was the only BCS champion to not receive a unanimous #1 vote in the Coaches Poll," but you must follow that up with the clause: "... but it meant nothing." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.222.37.21 (talk) 01:02, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh SEC homers, it does matter! Its true, LSU was the BCS champion. The controversy was that the AP poll picked someone else for champion, and three coaches broke their contract to vote for someone else for national champion. It was this controversy that led to the changes in the formula to pick the #1 and #2 overall for the championship game. Jklharris 09:19, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Bowl Schedule until 2010
The Future Schedules section should probably be the same as this.
 * I made the few changes, it was just a few dates. I also added this url as a reference. Please sign your comments on talk pages by typing ~ . -- MECU ≈ talk 14:05, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * That was me; my apologies. But did you make changes?  Because I don't see them.  The 2009 Fiesta Bowl is still listed as January 3, 2009.  The 2010 Fiesta Bowl is still listed as January 2, 2010.  The 2010 Orange Bowl is also incorrect.  Just to be sure, the dates listed in the first link are also listed on the Orange Bowl site.72.140.103.37 04:37, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, you can see my changes here. Perhaps you need to refresh/reload the page? -- MECU ≈ talk 14:21, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Length of page
This page is getting really long (and, yes, I'm part of the problem). We may want to consider splitting one or two of the sections, (formula and controversies, which could truly be their own articles). I've tagged them. However, I want to hear what the consensus thinks. Kermitmorningstar 07:20, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, but I think the listy sections (near the bottom) could be removed to their own pages first and that would help tremendously. I'm hesitant to remove the BCS Controversies, but if after removing the formula and listy sections it's still long, then we can remove it as well using . -- MECU ≈ talk 14:07, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree as well. This page should discuss the evolution of the BCS, how it works, and arguments for and against it.  All other information should be either simply be deleted, moved to another page, or used to create new pages.--SMP0328 (talk) 04:07, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

2006-2007 Controversies
Although there was plenty of controversy, I don't believe the 2006-2007 season was the most controversial season for the BCS. However, the section describing controversies season has 2-4 times the amount of text/information as any of the other seasons. The 2006-2007 controversies section should be edited/shortened to only the most important points, in my opinion. Do others concur? Does anyone want to do it? -Milkncookie 22:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

extremely biased
This entire topic is extremely biased against the BCS system. This article should really focus on the factual events and leave the reader to decide how they feel about the BCS, or cite additional sources to show that opinions are in fact wide spread. Snobrdjimmyjam 06:03, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree, six sources under "BCS Controversies" aren't enough. Shouldn't be that hard to find more.Happysomeone 23:07, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.17.236.56 (talk) 07:10, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Future Controversies
I added a small section under "BCS Controversies" outlining a future problem that the BCS system might run into. It involves the BCS not having enough eligible teams to fill its 10 at-large spots. I give an example from the 2001-02 season.

I also added TCU's 2000 and 2005 teams as additional non-BCS teams who would have recieved automatic berths under the current format in the "Changes for 2006-07" section. Both teams finished in the top 16 and ahead of a BCS conference champion (Purdue in 2000 and Florida State in 2005). Bmf 51 16:47, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That was deemed original research by someone else and I agree. Unless you can provide a source for the information, we can not accept it. MECU ≈ talk 12:50, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

 * The section about the controversy that I created a few months back has been rendered moot, as the BCS has added a rule that covers the situation I mentioned (which was added to this article in November). Interestingly, they added this rule shortly to the BCS's website after I e-mailed them asking about it. Perhaps, because of me, the BCS has averted another controversy. In the case of the 2001-02 season, Syracuse (ranked #17) would have received the other at-large berth. So, the following teams would have qualified:

 * ACC Champions - Maryland
 * Big East Champions - Miami-FL
 * Big Ten Champions - Illinois
 * Big 12 Champions - Colorado
 * Pac-10 Champions - Oregon
 * SEC Champions - Louisiana State
 * Big 12 At-large - Nebraska
 * SEC At-large - Either Florida or Tennessee
 * Pac-10 At-large - Either Stanford or Washington State
 * Big East At-large - Syracuse

Bmf 51
 * Please read our policy on original research. MECU ≈ talk 12:31, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I wasn't saying anything about changing the article in my last response. I was pointing out that, even if it weren't original research, it wouldn't be necessary to add it now, anyway, because the BCS has added a rule to prevent such a situation. I understand the reason my original edit was removed. My last response on this talk page wasn't disputing that. Perhaps reading that response again, more carefully, would help you understand. Bmf 51

Incredibly, even after adding the "18 or 22" rule, it is still possible that less than 10 teams would qualify for BCS bowls, because at-large teams still must have at least 9 wins. Z1perlster (talk) 18:35, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

BCS School Map
The map of BCS Schools featured in this article is outdated. It is supposed to show all the teams from BCS conferences, plus each independent school. However, Temple is no longer an independent. They will begin playing in the MAC this season. Bmf 51 16:52, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Criticism of BCS Revenue Sharing
A section regarding criticism of the BCS on the subject of revenue sharing was added, yet deleted without any discussion here. I have reverted the deletion, added a further citation regarding Congressional inquiry, and moved the section under "BCS Controversies." Should deletion be necessary, please discuss the reasons for doing so beforehand. 141.213.222.173 20:26, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I did not delete it, but I thought it seemed very out-of-place when I read this article. This article already seems biased against the BCS because the "controversy" section is so long. This presents considerable POV issues when you consider that the BCS is a system virtually everyone in a leadership role in college football has agreed to. I have heard more criticism claiming that non-BCS schools recieve more than they should from the system than too little. I don't understand the relevance of the highly theoretical "per-team" distrubution of funds. There are good reasons why second-tier conferences do not distribute their share equally among schools. It is because they recognize that some of the teams in their conferences are on the verge of being unable to field a D-1AA team at all, and are in no way BCS-relavant. Schools like Hawaii, BYU, Utah and Boise State would never agree to an arrangement like that accordingly. --76.17.236.56 (talk) 07:28, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

BCS Support Section
This section includes the prospect that if there were indeed a playoff, teams would inevitably pull out their starters at the end of the season to either give them rest or as a way of tanking a game so they get a better opponent. There is no basis for this, and not an argument commonly made about college sports in general. The reasoning on the page is that this happens in the NFL, yet often teams in college have to win to maintain a high enough ranking for what the common cutoff suggestions are, especially with the conference championship game that some of those teams would have to win.

Bah, that looks like I'm trying to discuss it, but honestly, I feel like the part of the article I'm responding to does not have an expert opinion to back it up, and the logic within the article can be refuted by what I said. Jklharris 09:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

The spot about NFL teams sitting starters at the end of a season lacks a NPOV from it's tone. It is stated as fact and should either have an attribution to an external source (espn blog, newspaper, whatever) or should be reworded. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.118.215.233 (talk) 03:01, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

One thing this article would benefit from is if anything comparing the BCS to a to a theoretical NCAA playoff sytem was deleted. The system has supporters because it has greatly increased the liklihood of #1 and #2 meeting in a bowl game. Prior to 1992 this almost never happened. I don't have any source, of course. The benefits are just self-evident.--76.17.236.56 (talk) 07:41, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I do not understand the inclusion of this statement:

 "Supporters also note that while the BCS routinely involves controversy about which two teams are the top teams, in rare instances there is a clear-cut top two; the BCS ensures these top two will play each other for the championship. For example, USC and Texas in 2005 were the only undefeated teams; both teams had only a couple of close contests and had nearly every other game out of reach for the opponent by the second or third quarter. Under the BCS system, these two teams got to play for the championship. Before the BCS, they would likely have played two other schools, and if they both won, then there would be either two champions, or else #2 Texas would have been denied a championship despite going 13–0.

This is support for BCS vs. the old, non-aligned bowl system. So what? No one is arguing we should go back to that. Its like having a segment in the page about the United States Government where someone advocates democracy over cave-man rule. It is not relevant, and should be removed.

>>You are completely correct. The entire "support" section is incredibly weak. On the one hand, it seems necessary to include support. On the other hand, it has to be better than the content provided.Obamafan70 (talk) 04:17, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Mistake in rules
In the rules used to determine which teams compete in the BCS bowl games, I think there is a mistake.

There is the bullet that says

"The third-ranked team will receive an automatic berth, if it has not already received one."

but on the bcs website, it says

"If any of the 10 slots remain open after application of provisions 1 through 4, and an at-large team from a conference with an annual automatic berth for its champion is ranked No. 3 in the final BCS Standings, that team will become an automatic qualifier, provided that no at-large team from the same conference qualifies for the national championship game."

Now, I think that means the third-ranked team will only receive an automatic berth if it a) Is from one of the bcs conferences b) Does not have another team in the conference that is in the bcs championship game.

It seems weird because that would virtually never happen. It would imply that it is only applicable if the third ranked team is ranked above the champion of its conference. 18.232.1.131 00:15, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You made a good point... the explanation was unclear. I added an example to try to clarify it.  It's possible to have 3 teams (one #1/#2, one #3/#4, and the conference champion).  In that case, the #3/#4 rule wouldn't apply, since it would violate the rule about 3 teams from a conference.  Yes, virtually impossible, but this is the BCS, right?  =P  Kermitmorningstar (talk) 06:36, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, there is another scenerio that is not quite clear, and while this is also virtually impossible, it can happen. Bullet Point 1 says that #1 and #2 in the BCS will play for the National Championship.  Bullet #2 says Champions of the BCS Conferences are also guaranteed spots.  What happens under this scenerio, and I will use 2006 as an example.  Ohio State finished 1st in the BCS, and Michigan 3rd.  What would have happened if Michigan had of finished 2nd -- But the conference champion was NOT Ohio State OR Michigan, rather was Wisconsin.  That could have happened.  Now, in this instance, which team would be excluded?  #2 in the BCS or the Automatic Qualifier?  -Pparazorback (talk) 05:25, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I got a response email from the BCS checking the scenerio I outlined above, and my assumptions were correct. Lets say Ohio State and Michigan both finish the season with 1 loss, Ohio State loses to Wisconsin, and Michigan loses to Ohio State. Wisconsin does not play Michigan and finishes the season undefeated in the Big-10, but they lose 2 or 3 games out of conference. In this case, Wisconsin would be the Big-10 champion, but would get bumped out of the BCS bid because Ohio State and Michigan finished 1st-2nd which trumps the conference champion berth. --Pparazorback 22:19, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Well the point was that "The third-ranked team will receive an automatic berth, if it has not already received one" as it currently says is wrong. That statement is feasible, but the actual rule is only if no other team from the conference is in the championship game, which is infeasible.

I think we should have two sets of rules: one that is nearly verbatim from the BCS website, and another that simplifies it by going over the rules that are feasible and ignores the rules that will never occur. Opinions? If there aren't any, then I'll write it up in a little bit. 18.232.1.131

BCS Controversies
I think the BCS Controversies section should be moved to a new article. This would reduce the content in this page which is becoming extremely long, and it would also allow for more elaborate coverage on both major and minor controversies. I would be bold and do it myself, but I would like to see if any other people have suggestionsFrank Anchor (talk) 21:12, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree.  This page is getting long. <Baseballfan789 (talk) 22:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Nice work folks.--Happysomeone (talk) 01:20, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Also: the Use of Bowl Game Names (Fiesta, Rose, Sugar, Orange) vs. "BCS National Championship Game".

In these tables, the names are used alternatively, with rare continuity in form. Either the bowl name or "BCS National Championship Game" should be used; this, in turn, could lead to the BCS Page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nickschuyler (talk • contribs) 23:05, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Reverted. The tables are fine. Prior to the 2006-07 season there were 4 bowls (Fiesta, Rose, Sugar, Orange). For the 2006-07 season and on, a 5th bowl was added, "BCS National Championship Game." In 2003 for example, the national championship game was refered to as "2003 Fiesta Bowl" not the "2003 BCS National Championship Game" in 2007 for example, the "2007 Fiesta Bowl" and the "2007 BCS National Championship Game" were two completely different games. Bcspro (talk) 02:49, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Hawaii v. Hawai`i
Both spellings are used on this page. We should pick one and stick to it. Agnamus (talk) 06:08, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * When talking about a Hawai`i-centric topic it should be spelled "Hawai`i", the official spelling. When outside of that topic, even though technically incorrect, "Hawaii" is generally accepted and should be used to avoid confusion and/or discrepancies.
 * Ex. If we were on the [University of Hawaii] page we should spell it "Hawai`i" when referring to it in text. But even then, you will notice it is spelled "Hawaii" in the page title.
 * Since this is a Football-centric topic it should be "Hawaii". And, if you get down to it, this is an English page and the okina is not an English letter, and in English we spell Japan "Japan" and not にほん, 日本, or even Nihon (or Nippon) just "Japan" --Billy Nair (talk) 04:54, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * There were only a few places in the actual article that needed the change. In the citation section I see no reason at all to remove the okina. --Billy Nair (talk) 05:07, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

two bowl tables will grow without limits
This article is long enough (some will say too long) as it is. Placing the result of each bowl game twice in both tables causes them to grow "downward" substantially after each season. Since each BCS bowl game already has its own article with game results, the individual results here are redundant. Alternatively, only W-L records of a team in a particular bowl could be listed in this article, by adding columns to the existing tables. Z1perlster (talk) 22:53, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 18:58, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

"BCS support" section should be removed
The "BCS support" section should be removed; its arguments in favor of the BCS are already summarized in the "BCS Controversy" section, and the section helps make the overall BCS article too long. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.237.53.226 (talk) 18:42, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

 * No more "support" in the "controversy" section. "Support" should remain with its own section. Bcspro (talk) 02:10, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

"BCS support" section contains bad and irrelevant arguments; should be removed
There should be no separate "BCS support" section. There is already a "BCS controversies" section. The word "controversy" means that a system has both proponents and opponents. Therefore, supporting arguments and criticisms should both be there.

Only the first argument raised in the "BCS support" section is really a relevant one. The second paragraph argues that the BCS system sometimes gets lucky because there are two clear-cut top teams at the end of the season, though the text admits that this happens "rarely." That a system rarely gets lucky is hardly a good argument in support.

The "BCS controversies" section used to have more relevant and analytically valid arguments in favor of the BCS system. Those should be restored. It looks like "Bcspro" cut them out. That was a mistake.

The last four paragraphs under "BCS support" contain information that is irrelevant to the question whether the BCS system is a good one. The article is too long as it is, and these only make it longer. This is another reason that the "BCS support" section should be eliminated, and the original "BCS controversies" section restored.

 * I removed that statement because "controversy" is aganist the BCS and "support" is for the BCS. What the statement says is then summed up in the "support" section which should still remain. Bcspro (talk) 18:23, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

 * If the "support" section is removed, what I cut out should be placed back in. However, I believe that there should be two sections instead of just one. Bcspro (talk) 18:25, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

--I did some clean-up on the support section. I removed some stuff that is not an issue of contention between critics and supporters. For instance, most critics readily accept that the BCS is an improvement over prior systems. So, there is really no reason to include this in the "support" section. Obamafan70 (talk) 04:27, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I strongly disagree. I think that the fact that it is an improvement over the previous system should 1) be in an article about it to give the article context and 2) is a huge point of the Pro-BCS argument for supporters (like me). Please revert that.--CastAStone//₵₳$↑₳₴₮ʘ№€ 04:55, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

--Thank you for your response which again gives me an opportunity to illustrate the point. With respect to (1) -- I agree with this. Somewhere in the article it could be stated for contextual reasons. But you would have to note that "both critics and supporters agree the BCS is an improvement over previous systems in terms of championship validity." For (2) -- how could this be a huge point for a supporter like you???? This is not a debate point. Find one sourced article where a critic challenges this point, and it will merit inclusion here. If you paid attention to the congressional hearings, you would know that the MWC commissioner nor Rep. Joe Barton challenged this point. In fact, they argued the BCS increased access. But this isn't indicative of support.Obamafan70 (talk) 19:07, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

The Current Controversies Section is Contradictory
While it seems nicely done. The following statement:

"Moreover, the composition of human polls is controversial: for example, the Associated Press has prohibited the BCS from using its rankings in the BCS formula, and ESPN has removed itself from the USA Today coaches poll."

Without some explanation as to why the above organiziations (the AP and ESPN) have removed themselves from the BCS formula and Coaches poll, the article as written seems to imply that each organization recognizes that human polls are inherently flawed. As mentioned earlier in the article "In particular, human polls are unavoidably subjective". If the AP for example does not want the BCS to use their poll, then why does the AP continue to conduct the polls at all, and continue to publish them on a weekly basis without any disclaimer to it's readers that they are "unavoidably subjective."

Perhaps a citation regarding the AP and ESPN positions' would bring some clarty and credibilty to the section as it is currently written. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.5.203.131 (talk) 21:56, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Why is there any concern what Obama thinks should be done? He is in no way involved in college football. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 214.3.11.2 (talk) 15:54, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Utah 2004 - "At-Large?"
Regarding this sentence:
 * "Despite the possibility of an "at-large" berth being granted to a non-BCS conference team, this didn't happen until the 2004-05 season, when Utah received a BCS bid to play in the Fiesta Bowl...."

Is this accurate in the context of "automatic" vs. "at-large" bids? The selection rules listed in the article indicate that the Utes received an automatic bid - they were a champion of a non-BCS conference and they finished in the Top 12 of the final standings. Wouldn't this mean their berth was as assured as those of any other conference champion? By my reading, an "at-large" team is one who met the qualifications for a BCS bowl but who wasn't guaranteed a spot; they had to be selected by a bowl committee. If my interpretation isn't correct, then perhaps the definitions of "automatic" and "at-large" should be better fleshed out. Dpiranha (talk) 03:04, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * No, the rule of a non-BCS conference champion in the top 12 automatically getting into a BCS bowl was not added until the 2006-07 season Frank Anchor  Talk to me  03:13, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Utah was an automatic team. From 1998-2005, any non-BCS conference team who finished in the top six would be given an automatic bid. I personally consider them an "Automatic At-Large". Bcspro (talk) 19:36, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I was unaware of the pre-2006 rule. Thank you for the clarification  Frank Anchor  Talk to me  20:19, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Pick-Your-Poison BCS Proposal
The problem with BCS playoff is that it takes too many games to decide, so plus-one is the only possibility. I have a BCS playoff idea that I have not seen anywhere else (which I posted in FreeRepublic yesterday).

I called it the pick-your-poison BCS playoff system, you can call it "playing chicken".

The advantage of this system is that it retains the current BCS bowl games, and needed only a plus-one national title game to determine the national chimps, regardless of whether it starts with 8 or 10 teams, or 100 teams...

After the final BCS ranking has been determined, i.e. after the conference title games, etc, half the teams in the BCS-qualified group would “pick their poison”.

To get into the national title game (i.e. only 2 teams allowed from the 4 winners of the current 4 BCS bowl games), you have to beat the top-2 highest final-BCS-ranked teams that lost, you own ranking and that of any winning team does NOT matter (this is called the whom-you-beaten rule). Again, the key is who beats the highest-ranked team, or at least the top-2 of the beaten, to determine who gets into the national title game.

Your own ranking only matters in that the highest ranked team get to pick first, followed by the next highest team which have not picked or been picked.

Hence #1 could pick #2, then #3 will get to pick next, whereas if #1 picked #4, then #2 will get to pick next, and so on.

This way, #1 team cannot complain that they won their bowl game and yet did not go to the title game because they were stucked with #8 team. #1 team now gets to decide whom they want to risk with, i,e. playing chicken. If they pick too high, they may loose, if they pick too low, they may loose even if they win the bowl game.

To determine their own destiny, they (#1 team) would have to pick at least the #3 team, or they could increase their chance of winning the bowl game by going with #4, and hope both #2 AND #3 don’t get upset. If #2 picked #3 (after #1 picked #4), then #1 still go to the title game if they beat #4 in the bowl game.

Or they could chance it and pick #5, and which means they go to title game by beating #5 if no upset happen to any other team regardless of how the other teams pick their bowl opponent.

With this pick-your-poison BCS playoff system, the BCS bowl games could retain some of its importance, be completed on Jan 1st, and then have the title game on Jan 8th at a new site (different each year like the Superbowl).

You can add other interesting mechanics too. LIke letting the BCS bowls choose which game they want after the teams have picked their opponent (or be picked). Also, you can add rules that say if somebody blows out an opponent, they get additional consideration as to who goes to the national title game. This is so that for example, #1 might want to pick #8, because if they blow out #8, like by 50 points or more, then they get to go to the national title game if the other teams did not blow out their respective opponent, etc.

ESPN acquire rights to BCS
ESPN has acquire the rights to air the BCS from 2011 to 2014. http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news?slug=ap-bcs-tv&prov=ap&type=lgns —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.246.135.107 (talk) 23:50, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism
The second paragraph read:

"History leading to creation of the BCS

Prior to the 1992 season, college football had no system that attempted to match the top-ranked teams in a post-season championship game. Not surprisingly, this led to the possibility, and even prevalence, that different human polls would select different national champions. This happened on many occasions.See NCAA Division I-A national football championship for a compilation of past "national champions" since 1869. Either way, Jeff Dworin will piss on you."

I removed the last line. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.214.98.190 (talk) 04:34, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

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Virginia Tech 2000 Sugar Bowl - Big East
At various places in this article Virginia Tech is listed as being a member of the ACC. However, when it played for the National Championship in 2000 they were still a member of the Big East. Therefore, the number of times the Big East has had teams play for the National Championship should be changed to 3 (Miami 1-1; Virginia Tech 0-1). No?

This should be fixed in several pages, however I don't know how to edit the boxes. Sorry, can someone take care of this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.143.11.184 (talk) 01:29, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

BCS Bowl wins and appearances by conference
I reverted this section back to its original form prior to a massive and unexplained edit by RichieB73 on January 7. RichieB73 had inexplicably changed the listing of wins and appearances to current conference affiliation, effectively counting all of Miami's BCS bowl appearances for the ACC and one of Virginia Tech's (instead of for the Big East, which conference both teams were in at the time). Besides the unexplained nature of this change (and the lack of consistency it demonstrated with our other presentation of history: everything else is by conference at the time), the change gave the misleading impression that the Big East had only sent a team to a BCS bowl six times over the past eleven years, rather than a team every year (which had to happen given that the Big East has always had an automatic berth for its conference champion), and that the ACC has ever sent more than one team in any given year. In point of fact, although both the ACC and the Big East have had automatic berths for their conference champions since the BCS was created, neither team has ever sent a team other than its conference champion to a BCS bowl game (either as a non-conference-champion automatic qualifier or as an at-large selection). I do not think this reversion of the state of the article prior to RichieB73's change (which was apparently made without discussion or justification) should be controversial, but if it is, let the discussion begin. 76.106.55.103 (talk) 20:03, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Problems with HR 599
There are two problems with HR 599 as currently written.

One, it says that "The term 'playoff system' means a system by which the national championship game of the NCAA Division I Football Bowl Subdivision is the final game of a single elimination post-season playoff system for which all NCAA Division I Football Bowl Subdivision conferences and unaffiliated NCAA Division I Football Bowl Subdivision teams are eligible." The current "BCS Championship Game" system would be considered a valid playoff under this definition, as (a) all teams are eligible, and (b) technically it is "single elimination" as one team is eliminated from consideration in each game.

Two, nothing stops the BCS from changing the name of its game to the "BCS Championship Game". The winner is still the AFCA National Champion, which would allow that team to give out "national football championship" rings in accordance with the NCAA bylaws.

 * That Don Guy (talk) 22:56, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

 * You could certainly make up your own definition of playoff system, but anyone familiar with the situation and the long debate recognizes the difference between the current system and an NFL-style playoffs. The current BCS does have a championship game for which all teams are elligible, but no one in reliable sources has ever called this a "playoff"... It seems a perfectly accurate representation of the current debate.  --Jayron32. talk . contribs  23:32, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Needed: Clear & accurate description of how standings are currently calculated
I read the entire page, and found it preposterously confusing. I came to this page as the fan of a particular team, trying to figure out if and how strength of schedule currently works in the BCS standings (in other words, which other teams on our schedule I should be rooting for or against). Read the "2004-Present" section -- one would believe the AP Poll is still part of the standings, for pete's sake! There is no summary of how the Coaches' Poll or the Harris Interactive Poll work, and precisely zero explanation of what "computer rankings" even means. Even a wholesale copy & paste from the BCS website would be more edifying, although all I get there is "Each computer ranking provider accounts for schedule strength within its formula." Searching further in Wikipedia, I came up with 2006 BCS computer rankings and 2007 BCS computer rankings (naturally, no 2008, 2009, or timeless page exists), which break down how each of the six computer rankings are computed to some degree of satisfaction, but there are no links from this page to either of those pages (I had to track them down by wiki-searching for the names of those rankings firms, such as Anderson & Hester, gotten from the BCS page).

I realize that the BCS standings are fairly complicated and seem to change yearly. I'm also no real expert in either college football nor Wikipedia etiquette, so apologies if I seem an ignoramus. But I found this page to actively detract from my understanding of the subject it purports to clarify. Hythlodayalmond (talk) 15:49, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

 * I suggest the current standings method be spun off into an article of its own. Gaohoyt (talk) 18:10, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Appearances by conference
Two things

 * 1) Right now, the order teams are listed within the conference is ordered chronologically (i.e. teams that got into a 1998 BCS bowl are listed before teams that got into a 1999 BCS bowl, etc). I think it should be changed either to alphabetically, or to by the # of BCS bowls.
 * 2) Should we note somewhere how many of those bids were at-large/other than conference champs? (for example, 8 so far for the Big Ten, 2 for the Pac-10, none for the ACC)?

Purplebackpack89 (talk) 00:27, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

"Appearances" before appearances
not a good idea - the table will surely be messed up even worse after the BCS bowls

Table format
Should the table listed  BCS Bowl wins and appearances by conference  include at-large bigs? Its difficult year in year out to know what is considered an at-large bid. Really Boise State, Utah, Hawaii and TCU's bids should not be considered at-large bids since in the rule book the top 12 team from a non bcs conference gets an automatic bid. then there is the rules about how Notre Dame can get an automatic bid. how about the rule about the #3 or #4 team getting an automatic bid if they arent their conference champion? there are to many scenarios and thus it should really be removed as it would be to diffucult to list the true at large bids. Bsuorangecrush (talk) 04:28, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I tried to clean it up a bit. The 2004 & 2009 Utah, 2006 BSU, 2007 Hawaii, 2009 TCU teams are now refered to as "Automatic non-AQ." As for the automatic bids to the #3 or #4 teams, I left them go. Perhaps we should provide a link or a footnote to the "Kansas State Rule." Also, Notre Dame did have an automatic bid to the 2006 Fiesta Bowl but it was NOT because they were ranked in the Top 8. I can't remember exactly why because I don't know the exact rule. Once again Notre Lame throws a wrench into the mix. Sorry, I'm just speaking the truth. Bcspro (talk) 04:53, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * According to the BCS web pages, ND was AQ due to being ranked #6. There is no other way for ND to get an AQ. Reamon (talk) 17:06, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

 * There are not too many scenarios to be able to list the AQs and the at-large. The rules are finite and simple. The BCS pages have a list of all the participants and how each team was selected for each bowl. Reamon (talk) 17:10, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

OfficialBCS edit on 4/20/2010
A couple of issues here (1) Edit wars are against WP standards. If you have a recommended change, discuss it here and others can decide if the proposed change is necessary and/or adds to the value of the article. (2) The fact that OfficialBCS removed information concerning the controversial nature of the BCS raises concerns about his neutrality on the subject WP:NPOV. (3) OfficialBCS may have a conflict of interest (again see WP standards). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Obamafan70 (talk • contribs) 14:59, 21 April 2010 (UTC) Obamafan70 (talk) 15:00, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Most of what OfficialBCS added is factually correct, and I for one and sick and tired of anyone adding anything that is not critical of the BCS being called bias. I understand that opinion polls say the BCS is unpopular, but most of this article is devoted to criticism instead of the facts of what the BCS is like it should be. Through that lens, OfficialBCS's edits are very constructive and a nice addition. I think they should stay.--CastAStone//(talk) 18:39, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

>> Your opinion about the neutrality of the article (as a whole) is duly noted. However, your comments are a pretty classic example of a straw man. I did not challenge what he added. I challenged what he deleted; he removed facts from the introduction that the BCS is controversial, facts that are relevant and important to Wikipedia readers. reader. Furthermore, your response does not address any (2) or (3) of my original concerns. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Obamafan70 (talk • contribs) 03:49, 22 April 2010 (UTC) Obamafan70 (talk) 03:51, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

AQ

 * Isn't "Automatic non-AQ" = "Automatic non-Automatic Qualifier" or "Automatic Qualifier"? Ucla90024 (talk) 06:22, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

 * I too find the "Automatic non-AQ" odd. It's apparently an invention by bcspro in an attempt to denote that a team from a "non-AQ" conference (something which is only implicitly defined by the BCS pages) earned an automatic bid, such as via current rule 3 under the "Automatic qualification" sections. I'd think it better if the notation used "Automatic via rule 3" or something like that rather than an apparent oxymoron. Or just simply "AQ" since it is immaterial whether the conference for that team is considered an "AQ conference." Reamon (talk) 17:00, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

To American-centric
What sport is this? To those of us outside America it is impossibel to tell - it ought to be in the first line. If I read enough of it I can perhaps deduce it is 'football', but again, outside America, this is soccer, which I suspect this isn't. 'Bowl' implies bowling, ie rolling a ball at a target, (either a cue ball or skittles) to us non-Americans. 89.168.87.17 (talk) 21:06, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

SEC record in national championship games
The table showing records in national championship games by conference says the SEC is 7-0 in nine appearances. What happened in the other two? Rickmbari (talk) 15:04, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
 * They lost them, in 2011-12 LSU lost to Alabama (there HAD to be an SEC loss that year) and in 2013-14, Auburn lost to FSU. They are actually 9-2 in 10 games (two teams appeared in one game).  It looks like that already got fixed, however.-- Jayron  32  03:16, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Incorrect link
The link to "Cowboy Stadium" does not click-through to the right page.
 * fixed, thank you. Frietjes (talk) 15:55, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Ohio State edits
Can someone more familiar with WP policies on vacated wins look at the recent edits by an IP? I'm unsure if that had already been taken into account. Thanks. Woodshed (talk) 02:43, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Bowl Championship Series


text:
Talk:Partial cloverleaf interchange

Untitled
AB3 seems ambiguous - is it meant to cover both distinct possibilities (up to rotation)? --SPUI 02:26, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, google searches for "parclo ab-3" and "parclo ab3" give nothing. Is this term actually used by the MTO? --SPUI 02:27, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Actually, there are actual Parclo AB3s in Ontario, though I don't know if the MTO calls them as such (they do use the term Parclo A3 and Parclo AB, however). The example I listed there is almost identical to the interchange between the Queen Elizabeth Way and Ontario Street in St. Catharines.  Now that I think of it, Highway 416 and Hunt Club Road in Ottawa is also a Parclo AB3.  Of course, the difference with these two examples is that side streets are also integrated into the actual interchange.  Same principal, just looks a little different. Snickerdo 03:10, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What does Ontario call a parclo with only one loop, like ? --SPUI 02:59, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Good question. They're all over the 401 in Durham Region.  I'll hunt down the official designation, but I think they're called something along the lines of Half Parclo/Half Diamond Hybrids.  As for Parclo AB3, it -is- an actual designation under the Ontario System.  There are also Parclo A3s along the QEW in Niagara (At Seventh Street in St. Catharines, and Mountain Road in Niagara Falls).  You can more or less ad any combo of A, B, 2, 3 or 4 to make up a designation for them. Snickerdo 03:10, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Not only used in North America - junction 1 of the M50 motorway (United Kingdom) is a parclo. Loganberry 13:48, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

 * Indeed this type of interchange seems to have an interesting if somewhat chequered history in UK motorway junctions... that is, being used only in situations where the road was being built on the cheap, in a hurry, or under other conditions that meant other usually-preferred (safer, more free flowing, etc) types were not possible. EG the original Preston Bypass (first part of M6 to be built) featured at least one in it's short length, the aforementioned M50 (about as close as it's possible to get to a country track whilst still satisfying the legal definition of a motorway-class road) where J1 is one of the safer and better engineered junctions - try J2, or even better J3 if you fancy a thrill, and the M6 Toll - a shockingly cheap road in all but it's basic alignment/navigation - features Parclo's, Cloverleafs and plain overpass crossroads (features more becoming of a rural dual carriageway) in abundance.
 * It does seem a bit odd that a type of junction that may be found anywhere it satisfies a need is in the "Canada Roads" section! PS Apologies for the run-on sentences.. -Tahrey 82.46.180.56 03:06, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll leave this to someone else to investigate, but this appears to be another example of a B4 interchange in Ontario. It doesn't occur on a 400-Series freeway (it's the easternmost interchange on the full freeway portion of Ontario provincial highway 17 in Walden, with RR 55), but nonetheless. --Scani71 04:50, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes, it's a B4. 89.172.58.121 17:43, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Cloverstack
I don't see what does the cloverstack have in common with a parclo, barring the fact that each incorporates parts of a cloverleaf interchange. If it doesn't deserve its own page, it would make more sense in the cloverleaf or stack interchange articles. Admiral Norton (talk) 15:43, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Tagging
I think it's a little strange to tag this for both HWY and CRWP/ONRD. The analogous situation in the US, Michigan left. That article is tagged for USRD but not MSHP because while Michigan's highway department invented it, it has caught on in places in the rest of the country. If it has caught on internationally enough, it should be HWY only. I would argue that Parclos are sufficiently internationalized now that they aren't just a Ontario thing anymore, or even just a Canadian thing. That was my rationale for tagging it for the HWY parent project only. (On a side note, Michigan left is tagged for WP:MICH, and this article can be tagged by WP:ONTARIO.) I just don't think in a roads context though that either subject is particularized to just one province or state anymore.  Imzadi  1979   →  02:32, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * P.S. In the case of the Michigan left, MDOT's predecessor is directly given credit by official sources as having invented the intersection type. MDOT also takes credit for it on their website. Newspaper articles typically describe it as invented in Michigan. I don't think the media does the same with the parclo though, making the MTO connection here slightly weaker.  Imzadi  1979   →  02:37, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed, and I have yet to find any official documents supporting the claim; only roadgeeks really. The Michigan left example makes sense though. I switched things back. -  ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  τ ¢  03:32, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Terrible and biased article.
This is a terrible and biased article with few references. It reads like as if it was written by a salesman. This design does not allow better flow then a clover leaf, it allows an interchange to be built more cheaply where a clover leaf is not needed. This kind of article should not be on wikipedia. Find some sources for your work and write an unbiased article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.158.168.46 (talk) 10:41, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

 * Yes, it is a bad article, much due to material added to the article by someone who knew squat about interchanges. A parclo cannot be used at the intersection of two freeways. Big difference between it and cloverleaf, stack, or turbine interchanges (or bastardized versions thereof). --66.41.154.0 (talk) 22:17, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Capacity issue not handled by the article
--Hans Haase (talk) 19:57, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
 * A 4 ramp parclo needs to hande 3 conflicting directions on the crossstreet
 * A 6 ramp parclo needs to hande 2 conflicting directions on the crossstreet, only

Cloverstacks
…are hybrid interchanges of cloverleafes and stack interchanges. They have freeflowing traffic, often free from weafing. They are interchanges and far away from intersections. --Hans Haase (talk) 20:05, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Disputed
http://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=13546 --NE2 20:34, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

 * I'd rest my laurels on Chris Beach's answer. I've wanted to cut that 'fact' out for some time. 4 years actually, if you look above. -  Floydian  τ ¢  00:10, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
 * It's always permissable to request a source citation with a Template:cn tag, then come back later and remove the disputed statement if no one has supplied a source. Kendall-K1 (talk) 13:43, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Folded diamond
Am I the only one to think that it is strange that folded diamond interchanges are covered in this article (with Folded diamond redirecting here) rather than at Diamond interchange, with which I think they have more in common? This kind of interchange is extremely common, heavily predates the parclo idea (as mentioned in the article), and lacks what I would call a central feature of the parclo idea: the absence of left-turns off the minor road. Just because folded diamonds are considered variants of the parclo rather than of the diamond in Ontario, why should we? 85.226.204.72 (talk) 15:51, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Redirecting to interchange (road)
My bold edit was reverted, and AFD is apparently not the venue for this. I would like to redirect this article to interchange (road). This article is almost entirely unsourced, and a list of examples. Here is what the article looks like when the lists of examples are removed. While I will not argue that this topic is notable, I see no reason it shouldn't be covered in amongst other interchanges. -  Floydian  τ ¢ 02:27, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 * since you undid the redirect, I'd like your opinion posted. -  Floydian  τ ¢ 16:25, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

 * Oppose merge - There are a plethora of sources online. BE BOLD and source it. – Davey 2010 Talk 21:04, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The issue is not whether or not sources are available, it is whether or not this warrants an independent article, as opposed to being covered in an article about all interchanges. It is not my duty to source examples, it is the duty of the person adding the information; just undo my last edit and we have a starting point. -  Floydian  τ ¢ 23:38, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Well judging by the sources online as well as information here one could quite easily source everything here so yes it does warrant a seperate article. Sad thing is Floydian all of this energy being wasted on redirecting, AFDing, coming here etc etc could all be much better spent on this very article. – Davey 2010 Talk 00:17, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm wasting it instead on interchange (road). Why polish several turds when one reflects quite well? Also, if you're so confident, source out the article... I don't accept Steam and SimCity Devotion forum posts as reliable sources, find me civil engineering reports. -  Floydian  τ ¢ 02:09, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, judging by the comment above, this is nothing more than your garden variety run-of-the-mill WP:IDL deletion, and deserves all the consideration that warrants. I stand by my reversion. Also, you should be notifying and, the primary editors of this article. AlgaeGraphix (talk) 19:00, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pinging them. This has nothing to do with WP:IDL, its about covering a broader topic in one article, as opposed to splitting it into four topics. -  Floydian  τ ¢ 21:25, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

What is the point of section 3.4?
I don't see the point of section 3.4, as a parclo has loops and signalized lefts, and this has flyovers. As well, this is already covered at Interchange (road).

ClydeFranklin (talk) 00:25, 18 April 2022 (UTC)Clyde

 * I've gone ahead and removed the section per WP:SILENCE. However, feel free to revert that and discuss it here. C LYDE (TALK) @PING ME! 21:12, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Partial cloverleaf interchange


text:
File:Shewhodwells.jpg

Album cover.

title: File:Shewhodwells.jpg


text:
User talk:67.175.191.237

I'd like to inquire the reason you have twice removed the majority of the prep schools listed at Preparatory school. There is, of course, a perpetual debate regarding the notability of schools, but if a prep school has a Wikipedia article which has not been deleted, it is presumably notable and should thus be included in the list. I have reverted your change again; please give explanation before wholesale deletions. Rdsmith4— Dan | Talk 02:27, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Likewise, if you'd like to delete or segregate bands from the Supergroup (bands) list, please discuss it on the talk page. Thanks! [[User:CatherineMunro|Catherine\talk]] 23:24, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:67.175.191.237


text: Category:Road junction types

title: Category:Road junction types


text:
Ganglioside

A ganglioside is a molecule composed of a glycosphingolipid (ceramide and oligosaccharide) with one or more sialic acids (e.g. N-acetylneuraminic acid, NANA) linked on the sugar chain. NeuNAc, an acetylated derivative of the carbohydrate sialic acid, makes the head groups of gangliosides anionic at pH 7, which distinguishes them from globosides.

The name ganglioside was first applied by the German scientist Ernst Klenk in 1942 to lipids newly isolated from ganglion cells of the brain. More than 60 gangliosides are known, which differ from each other mainly in the position and number of NANA residues. It is a component of the cell plasma membrane that modulates cell signal transduction events, and appears to concentrate in lipid rafts.

Recently, gangliosides have been found to be highly important molecules in immunology. Natural and semisynthetic gangliosides are considered possible therapeutics for neurodegenerative disorders.

Location
Gangliosides are present and concentrated on cell surfaces, with the two hydrocarbon chains of the ceramide moiety embedded in the plasma membrane and the oligosaccharides located on the extracellular surface, where they present points of recognition for extracellular molecules or surfaces of neighboring cells. They are found predominantly in the nervous system where they constitute 6% of all lipids.

Function
The oligosaccharide groups on gangliosides extend well beyond the surfaces of the cell membranes, and act as distinguishing surface markers that can serve as specific determinants in cellular recognition and cell-to-cell communication. These carbohydrate head groups also act as specific receptors for certain pituitary glycoprotein hormones and certain bacterial protein toxins such as cholera toxin.

The functions of gangliosides as specific determinants suggest its important role in the growth and differentiation of tissues as well as in carcinogenesis. It has been found that tumor formation can induce the synthesis of a new complement of ganglioside, and very low concentrations of a specific ganglioside can induce differentiation of cultured neuronal tumor cells.

Common gangliosides

 * One NANA ("M")
 * GM1
 * GM2
 * GM3
 * Two NANAs ("D")
 * GD1a
 * GD1b
 * GD2
 * GD3
 * Three NANAs ("T")
 * GT1b
 * GT3
 * Four NANAs ("Q")
 * GQ1

Structures of the common gangliosides
GM2-1 =  aNeu5Ac(2-3)bDGalp(1-?)bDGalNAc(1-?)bDGalNAc(1-?)bDGlcp(1-1)Cer

GM3 =  aNeu5Ac(2-3)bDGalp(1-4)bDGlcp(1-1)Cer

GM2,GM2a(?) =  N-Acetyl-D-galactose-beta-1,4-[N-Acetylneuraminidate- alpha-2,3-]-Galactose-beta-1,4-glucose-alpha-ceramide

GM2b(?) =  aNeu5Ac(2-8)aNeu5Ac(2-3)bDGalp(1-4)bDGlcp(1-1)Cer

GM1,GM1a =  bDGalp(1-3)bDGalNAc[aNeu5Ac(2-3)]bDGalp(1-4)bDGlcp(1-1)Cer

asialo-GM1,GA1 =  bDGalp(1-3)bDGalpNAc(1-4)bDGalp(1-4)bDGlcp(1-1)Cer

asialo-GM2,GA2 =  bDGalpNAc(1-4)bDGalp(1-4)bDGlcp(1-1)Cer GM1b =  aNeu5Ac(2-3)bDGalp(1-3)bDGalNAc(1-4)bDGalp(1-4)bDGlcp(1-1)Cer

GD3 =  aNeu5Ac(2-8)aNeu5Ac(2-3)bDGalp(1-4)bDGlcp(1-1)Cer

GD2 =  bDGalpNAc(1-4)[aNeu5Ac(2-8)aNeu5Ac(2-3)]bDGalp(1-4)bDGlcp(1-1)Cer

GD1a =  aNeu5Ac(2-3)bDGalp(1-3)bDGalNAc(1-4)[aNeu5Ac(2-3)]bDGalp(1-4)bDGlcp(1-1)Cer

GD1alpha =  aNeu5Ac(2-3)bDGalp(1-3)bDGalNAc(1-4)[aNeu5Ac(2-6)]bDGalp(1-4)bDGlcp(1-1)Cer

GD1b =  bDGalp(1-3)bDGalNAc(1-4)[aNeu5Ac(2-8)aNeu5Ac(2-3)]bDGalp(1-4)bDGlcp(1-1)Cer

GT1a =  aNeu5Ac(2-8)aNeu5Ac(2-3)bDGalp(1-3)bDGalNAc(1-4)[aNeu5Ac(2-3)]bDGalp(1-4)bDGlcp(1-1)Cer

GT1,GT1b =  aNeu5Ac(2-3)bDGalp(1-3)bDGalNAc(1-4)[aNeu5Ac(2-8)aNeu5Ac(2-3)]bDGalp(1-4)bDGlcp(1-1)Cer

OAc-GT1b =  aNeu5Ac(2-3)bDGalp(1-3)bDGalNAc(1-4)aXNeu5Ac9Ac(2-8)aNeu5Ac(2-3)]bDGalp(1-4)bDGlcp(1-1)Cer

GT1c =  bDGalp(1-3)bDGalNAc(1-4)[aNeu5Ac(2-8)aNeu5Ac(2-8)aNeu5Ac(2-3)]bDGalp(1-4)bDGlcp(1-1)Cer

GT3 =  aNeu5Ac(2-8)aNeu5Ac(2-8)aNeu5Ac(2-3)bDGal(1-4)bDGlc(1-1)Cer

GQ1b =  aNeu5Ac(2-8)aNeu5Ac(2-3)bDGalp(1-3)bDGalNAc(1-4)[aNeu5Ac(2-8)aNeu5Ac(2-3)]bDGalp(1-4)bDGlcp(1-1)Cer

GGal =  aNeu5Ac(2-3)bDGalp(1-1)Cer

where
 * aNeu5Ac = N-acetyl-alpha-neuraminic acid
 * aNeu5Ac9Ac = N-acetyl-9-O-acetylneuraminic acid
 * bDGalp = beta-D-galactopyranose
 * bDGalpNAc = N-acetyl-beta-D-galactopyranose
 * bDGlcp = beta-D-glucopyranose
 * Cer = ceramide (general N-acylated sphingoid)

Pathology
Gangliosides are continuously synthesized and degraded in cells. They are degraded to ceramides by sequential removal of sugar units in the oligosaccharide group, catalyzed by a set of highly specific lysosomal enzymes. Mutations in genes coding for these enzymes leads to the accumulation of partially broken down gangliosides in lysosomes, which results in a group of diseases called gangliosidosis. For example, the fatal Tay–Sachs disease arises as a genetic defect which leads to no functional hexosaminidase A produced, causing GM2 to accumulate in lysosomes. Ultimately the ganglion cells in the nervous system swell enormously, disturbing the normal functions of neurons.

Gangliosides are also involved in several diseases:

 * Influenza, in which haemagglutinin of influenza virus exploits certain gangliosides to enter and infect the cells expressing them.
 * Guillain–Barré syndrome, which has been linked to the production of anti-ganglioside antibodies.
 * Cholera
 * Tetanus
 * Botulism
 * Leprosy
 * Obesity, where inadequate ganglioside expression in mediobasal hypothalamic neurons deregulates neuronal leptin and insulin signaling.

title: Ganglioside


text:
Ralph Benmergui

Raphael "Ralph" Benmergui (born 1955) is a Canadian television and radio personality, a writer, an ordained spiritual director, and a strategic advisor in political, environmental, and academic realms.

Early life and education
Born to a Sephardi Jewish family in Tangier, Morocco, and raised in Toronto, Benmergui studied journalism at Ryerson Polytechnical Institute, where he was news director and program producer at the university's radio station, CKLN-FM.

Career
While Benmergui was still at Ryerson, the CBC offered him a research job in Winnipeg. From there, he went on to produce current affairs documentaries and was named host of Night Lines, a late-night music show on CBC Stereo. Back in Toronto, Benmergui hosted Prime Time, a nightly one-hour entertainment program on CBC Radio, and its weekend sister program The Entertainers. He later moved on to co-host CBC Television's Midday with Valerie Pringle, and also later hosted the variety show Friday Night! with Ralph Benmergui and the talk show Benmergui Live.

He has won a prestigious Japan Prize for Best International Youth Programming, a Yorkton Film Festival prize for Best Youth Programming, and has been the recipient of five Gemini Award nominations.

Benmergui produced Stuart McLean's Christmas special and the children's quiz show SmartAsk for CBC television, and for Vision TV he produced five episodes of a series called Seekers, chronicling the experience of five people on journey to find their spirituality, and Ralph Benmergui: My Israel, taking a critical and bipartisan look at the issues and landscape of Israel. He has also hosted three specials, entitled Seriously Funny in Canada and Punchlines in the Sand in the US, where three comics comment on and explore serious issues of the day through comedy.

In 2009, Benmergui joined the Green Party of Canada as a strategic communications advisor. He has since worked as a strategic advisor at different political, environmental, media, business, and academic organizations and boards. He continues to periodically work in media. He is writing a book about ageing and sageing, and he leads workshops and counsels others on this topic.

In 2021, Benmergui started a podcast for The Canadian Jewish News called Yehupetzville about Jews living in small towns across the country.

Personal life
Benmergui is married to Cortney Pasternak, a registered psychotherapist, educator, and former television journalist. He is the father of four and the grandfather of two.

title: Ralph Benmergui


text:
Itagaki Nobukata

Itagaki Nobukata (板垣 信方) was a retainer of the Takeda family. He was known as one of the "Twenty-Four Generals of Takeda Shingen". His name is also seen with different kanji as 信形. Nobukata served under both Takeda Nobutora and Takeda Shingen and also was tasked with young Shingen.

Military life
In 1541 Nobutora, along with Amari Torayasu, was driven out from the position of the head of Takeda clan, and he served as the general for Shingen often leading the troops into a battle when Shingen could not.

In 1542, he would personally finish off Takato Yoritsugu at Battle of Ankokuji, shortly after the Siege of Fukuyo.

In 1545, he successfully besieged and captured Takato castle.

In 1546, he defeated Uesugi Norimasa at Usui Toge in Battle of Odaihara. With these victories, he was instrumental in gaining the control of Shinano Province and proved himself a skilled tactician. He was known as one of the "Twenty-Four Generals of Takeda Shingen". After these victories, Nobukata increasingly became selfish and started to hold victory ceremonies without firmly winning a battle. These victories rapidly became fewer. As Nobukata was the eldest of the Takeda retainers and having educated Shingen, few could criticize his actions.

In 1547, during Siege of Shika Castle, Nobukata and his troops were almost completely wiped out in a battle and without a timely rescue by Hara Toratane, Nobukata himself would have been in danger as well. Shingen offered the following waka to Nobukata to encourage him to correct his act.

In 1548, at the Battle of Uedahara, Nobutaka satisfied with a victory, had his troops stand down to hold a ceremony. Murakami Yoshikiyo's troops regrouped and counterattacked, killing Nobutaka and Amari Torayasu.

Personal life
The Meiji era politician Itagaki Taisuke was Nobukata's direct descendant, 12 generations removed.

 * Dare mo Miyo Mitsureba Yagate Kaku Tsuki no Izayofu Ana ya Hito no Yo no Naka
 * 誰もみよ 満つればやがて 欠く月の 十六夜ふ穴や 人の世の中

 * (Translation) "Everyone sees that even a beautiful full moon starts to change its shape, becoming smaller as the time passes. Even in our human lives, things are as it is."

In fiction
In NHK's 2007 Taiga drama Fūrinkazan, Itagaki is played by Sonny Chiba. Like in the novel it was adapted from, Nobukata was portrayed more heroically, supposedly the one who was trying to rein in the young Takeda Harunobu (Shingen) from his arrogance and chose to sacrifice himself so that Harunobu may survive the Battle of Uedahara.

Genealogy
Source "Kai Kokushi". Matsudaira Sadayoshi. 1814. Japan.(Aduchi-Momoyama period part) "Kwansei-choshu Shokafu". Hotta Masaatsu, Hayashi jyussai. 1799. Japan.(Aduchi-Momoyama period part) "Osamuraichu Senzogaki-keizucho"(Edo period part)

title: Itagaki Nobukata