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Talk:Koolie

Koolie Page Redirect undone
I do hope I have done this correctly. There should now be two individual pages, one the original Koolie page on the Koolie/Coolie breed of Australia and the second untouched page on the American - German Coolie. My reason for this action is that I have tried to reach everyone that could be reached about the impropriety of the Koolie page redirect, resulting in, no resolve to the issues, so I have taken matters into my own hands. Sorry it has taken so long, but as I have written else where, all over the place, I do not sleep here. I have been involved with the ongoing research into the Koolie/Coolie origins and the efforts of the DNA collection around Australia, so have been understanably distracted. But as you can see I am here now and obviously will set this page in my watch list, hopefuly to afford the public the right to make it's own choice. Happy New Year Tjukurpa (talk) 12:43, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Same standards as ANKC? Untrue
Since conformation is the main thrust of ANKC as it is with most all-breed clubs (all, except the UKC AFIAK) I think the note to the breed table is misleading. This is much better explained in the body of the article, I think. Dogs in other breeds would also have this interesting status, in fact, as I'm typing I'm thinking there's an article or article addendum here--what about obvious purebreds if imported to a country where they're not recognized, for example? Quill 21:46, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, yeah, just what we need, more ideas for articles to write! ;-)   There's some related discussion here: Border_collies and I think I put in similar stuff in some other herding breed articles. I don't know what we'd call such an article...  hmmm, I'm almost sure that some article discusses related topics with several breeds referenced, dang, you'd think I'd know, because I'm pretty sure I wrote such a thing. Beats me where.  Elf | Talk 23:26, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Anecdotal stuff
This is largely unproven/undocumented so I'm removing for now. It can always be added back in later--or pieces thereof:

German settlers used similar looking herding dogs called "Tigers" pronounced with a short "i" which were mistaken for Collies, the German guttural pronunciation of Collie sounds like Koolie, it is generally believed that the Tiger is a foundation breed for the Koolie along with smooth coated Collies, Tigers have been recorded to arriving in Australia as early as 1825. It is hoped that through the collection of the Koolie DNA by the Koolie Club of Australia for Genetic Technologies Services Australia, that the Koolie marker will be discovered and other breed influence can be identified.

I remember specifically asking some German speakers when I was writing my first article on Koolies, the feeling was that Collie was perfectly pronounceable so this explanation would be unlikely. The Tiger as a foundation for the Koolie is a theory, not a general belief. Records from 1825? I would like to see some before we state that as fact.

As far as I know GTS can trace lineage, not specific breeds.

Quill 21:55, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Germans pronouncing the word Collie like coolie is a bit silly? I have never heard anyone in Germany pronounce it that way (albeit growing up there). I heard the German immigrants brought the tiger with them? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.124.42.169 (talk) 11:36, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Allow me to introduce myself I am a founding committee member, Editor, researcher and Publicist of the Koolie Club of Australia. I am not familiar with how one gets assistance or clarifies ones source, so please forgive me if this approach is unacceptable. I need to raise a couple of issues and hope someone may help me to sort through them. Firstly my information regarding the mispronunciation of the word Collie by a heavily accent German of over 100 years ago is quite sound, one of our researchers is German and feels that this is not only possible but probable. He has an enormous book called the German settler in Australia the first 100 years. In this book it states that the Lutheran Germans who first settled in SA spoke a language that was divorced from the original German spoken in Germany at that time, being around the early 1800s, his Grandmother who does not know a word of English pronounces Collie as Koolie. If we consider that many of the early German settlers were of a rural background their speech would differ as it does here in Australia. Does this explanation warrant the replacement of the piece that was removed. Later this year I shall be joining several Tiger breeders in German to collect their DNA as you know DNA can discover linage and this is what we are attempting to do, currently with our own registered Koolies, and soon with German Tigers and Collies from the highlands of Scotland. I am not an authority but do have a passion for seeing the job done thoroughly and I learn quickly. Quill could you please tell me what was the name of the Article you wrote on Koolies you refer to, I am always looking for reference material. Second issue I removed an addition to the Koolie stub covering standards because I wanted it discussed first as to it appropriates at this time, it is not our wish to dictate to anyone regarding standards or the need for one we only wish to continue a slow, cautious approach we have found success with, there is still much to learn regarding the Koolie as a working breed and companion, it's health, skeletal structure, and genetic make up to rush into a hastily considered standard, produced by people who have little or no first hand knowledge of the breed itself please I can be reach at this address tjukurpa@pacific.net.au to continue this discussion. (Tjukurpa 06:17, 3 May 2006 (UTC))

 * If the german immigrants came from northern germany, then they may have spoken Low German. It's very different from high german and was very usual till the early 20th century. An example: house (english), Haus (high german), Hus (lower german). This people spoke ever platt; and it's possible that many of them don't understood high german nor english. There exists a joke, that immigrants from north and south germany had to speak english to understand each other. If you look for a german connection is here an possible ancestor of the Koolie: pages 125 and 126 It's very probable that farm people from the Brunswick area spoke platt. The story with C and K in the German alphabet seems to be nonsense - i've never heard something like this.

 * I've read somewhere, that is was forbidden to import german shepherds to australia, because the government feared that these "dangerous wolfdogs" (some lineages where called Elsässer Wolfshund for a time) could mix them with the dingo. In the 19th century where all dogs of the shepherds called Schäferhund (shepherd dog). The breed of the German shepherd was'nt (fully) separated from the Altdeutschen (today often called Hütehunde instead Schäferhunde). So immigrants could have labeled this dogs as Collies, spoken Cullie by northgermans (speculative). I hope my english is understandable. regards from germany--Zuviele Interessen (talk) 19:30, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Where is the proof that these dogs existed in Australia since the 1800's? I am unable to find any link to where the information was obtained. Shouldn't that be removed, until it can be proven?

The Coolie is not related to the German Tiger. It is a British collie dog. The whole German Coolie debate is sterile - the dogs are plainly a collie breed and the name reflects this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.90.192.244 (talk) 03:59, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Re:anecdotal stuff
Genetic Technology Services is currently working with the Koolie Club of Australia to find a DNA marker for the breed and is currently working on several other breeds.

The club is currently researching the history of the breed and the German Tiger as an ancestor is looking very likely, GTS will also look at DNA of the Tiger once samples can be arranged. German farmers settled in Australia in the early 1800's in large numbers, it is highly likely they brought their own working dogs with them, as did British settlers who brought the ancestors of the Kelpie and Australian Cattle Dog. Koolieoz 00:41, 6 March 2006 (UTC) == This page is being vandalised by someone with personal agenda's and not for the good of Wikipedia or the Koolie so I have reverted it to the last serious content (Koolieoz 17:30, 9 May 2006 (UTC))

Ann and Kerrie, why do you both continue to delete information from the American German Coolie research? You are NOT the only two doing research on the GERMAN COOLIE. I have proof that the foundation dogs from the Tjukurpa Kennels (Kerrie Challenger) were obtained from the pound and some were found as strays. The Australian's may NOT care if their offspring or foundation dogs are without merit (no lineage), but the Americans do. You and Kerrie may not care if there isn't a Breed Standard for your dogs, but the American Members and breeders of the German Coolies do! A breed standard was voted on and passed by the members of the German Coolie Club of America. The breed standard that was posted here and then deleted by Kerrie, was to guard against the breeding of substandard dogs, maybe you don't care about that, but the American's do. The breed standard faults pigeon toes, cow hocked, overshot jaws, undershot jaws, bad temperament, etc... if the Australians do not want to guard against that, that is fine, but the Americans DO!! This page is not being vandalized, it's being added to for the world to see and read other research that has been obtained and where the GERMAN COOLIE is going in the United States. I know that you will just delete this, but I will continue to post it. And yes Kerrie, I DO have first hand knowledge of German Coolies, rather you like it or not.

Quill, or someone from Wikipedia, please email me ( yatahae_koolies@yahoo.com ), I'd love to talk to you about the emails that I've received from Kerrie Challenger/Tjukurpa Kennels and the research that we have done.

Yatahae, your vandalism was reverted because this is not the place to play petty games, please read the policies and guidelines. One person with 18 months experience with a breed and a club with 2 members does not make an authority with the right to dictate a standard to people with up to 50 years breeding experience. (Koolieoz 00:21, 11 May 2006 (UTC))

Just out of interest Tjupurka (Kerrie), how long have you been breeding Coolies (Koolies) and how far back do the records of lineage go for your foundation brood bitch and stud dog? Bonniebank 07:04, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Anne I've known, worked with and around German Coolies since 1985! That is way more than 18 months. How would you know how many members we have anyway? Prove there are only 2 members! For the record, the German Coolie Club of America has 225 members, American and Australian. We have 351 GERMAN COOLIES registered to date. The KCA ONLY has 3 American members;

The KCA has more than three members in America and is happy as the orginal and largest register of koolies to register those residing in America. Your records are facinating (Koolieoz 10:18, 15 May 2006 (UTC))

Yes, Anne, as is your registry information and the history behind some of the foundation dogs that are registered as "Pure Bred Koolies". l found the following info about the history of collies. Thought it may be of interest.

"It is thought that the Collie's ancestors arrived in Ireland between the 5. and 1. centuries BC. They were brought over by Celtic tribes. Some tribes also moved to Great Britain and brought their dogs with them. In Scotland sheep were more popular than in Ireland (where cattle was on first place) as they could be kept on more inhospitable, sparse terrain - so a good herding dog was invaluable to herd sheep over long distance, to find strays and to be a reliable worker even in hostile conditions and surroundings."

This refers to collies being 'bought over' by celts. Celts also occupied what is now Germany so it may be possible that the collie is also ancestor to herding breeds in Germany today. Also found " There are several origins for the word "collie": 1. Gaelic word collie meaning "useful" 2. Welsh word coelius meaning "loyal" 3. Scottish breed of sheep colley 4. the most simple solution - from word coalley meaning "black

My comment removedRangerDanielBoone (talk) 08:39, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Artorius, it would be nice to be so simple. The fact is it is an Australian breed, many assume of collie origin but there is more than one ancestor to each breed. There are Koolies in America but they arrived from Australia, often with imports or marino sheep which was quite extensive. Australias quarantine laws at that time would not allow the return of domestic animals once they had left the country (particularly from rabies suffering countries) so the dogs used while transporting would have been sold or traded before return. (Such was the fate of many thousands of Waler horses after World War 1 who were shot). Also our club patron who has bred koolies for 50 years has exported several times to America as have other members since. Yes the breed was known as German Koolie/Coolie but there is no breed by that name in Germany. When the club was formed obviously one single spelling had to be agreed upon, coolie is often confused with collie and at the same time we wished to indicate the club was Australian. German Koolie Club of Australia would only be very confusing. Research undertaken since the formation of the club found there is a very similar breed of farm working dog called the Tiger in Germany. Their breeders are adamant they are not of collie origins and are an ancient shepherd. Indications at this time is that the breed evolved in Australia between collies of the blue merles collies referred to behind kelpies and Australia Cattle Dogs and Tiger dogs that came with immigrant farmers from Germany in the early 1800's. There are many historical references to German farmers settling in various parts of Australia and of early Marino sheep breeders going to Germany and purchasing large flocks of sheep, it is fair to assume some would have returned with local dogs purchased at the time to herd the sheep which were bought all across the country. (Koolieoz 09:30, 12 May 2006 (UTC))

According to the Australian Merino by CJ Massey, the sheep industry was very stop and start getting going, the original sheep to arrive were meat type, the sheep to arrive with the first fleet were a small number of meat sheep, half of which died very early. The fleece sheep Merino industry took several decades to get going and they struggle to get good quality fleeces. Early merino sheep were imported from South Africa, but also England, France & Saxony (Germany). A lady by the name of Eliza Furlonge walked the breadth of Saxony purchasing sheep and collecting them together to transport back to Australia in 1829, there is every chance as she drove them from Konigstein to Hamburg for shipping that she had collected local sheep herding dogs to make the journey. There is no reason why several different imports of Tiger dogs happened and more could have come with immigrants over several decades, also we know some came back after the first world war with soldiers returning to their farms. (Koolieoz 10:18, 15 May 2006 (UTC))

Eliza Furlonge was actually a Scottish wool expert and the sheep she collected were the very rare Escorial sheep. She shipped them from Hamburg to Hull in Scotland, so if you are working on assumptions, then one can assume that she collected local sheep dogs from Scotland to help herd the sheep.--Artorius 06:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes she collected sheep across Saxony on foot, drove them to Hamburg, shipped them to Scotland, sold the flock twice before returning for a third time and then shipped them on to Australia where she is credited with a major roll in the early Merino sheep industry which now has a medal that it presents in her memory for services to the wool industry. (Koolieoz 10:29, 16 May 2006 (UTC))

Where is the proof? You "believe" or "assume" is NOT proof. Where is anything written in the historical achives about the herding dogs used, brought over, exported, imported, etc...? If you can't prove it, then don't assume it.

Vandalisim
Quote: This page is being vandalised by someone with personal agenda's and not for the good of Wikipedia or the Koolie so I have reverted it to the last serious content (Koolieoz 17:30, 9 May 2006 (UTC))

My two cents worth - No one person or organisation has god given rights to publish information and research. I am intersted in the Koolie or Coolie my self and wish to read any information that has been entered, people have the right to make their own judgements and form their own ideas. It is good - that even if it has been edited that the edited peices can be still read, as it is a free world and we have the right to be subjected to as much info as possible.

My thoughts exactly! :o) My only agenda is to learn more about these lovely dogs! I think this site is terrific in that it's very democratic. :o) I do know and/or know of some of the contributors to this page and openly admit that I have had dealings with a few of them. I'm not sure of the rules here so is it best if I make a disclaimer about any details as to my involvement with anyone???

I'd rather not bring personal issues into it but if the rules are that I have to disclose them before I can join in the discussion, please let me know.

I'm sorry if I've broken any rules by asking my question of Tjupurka. Bonniebank 11:27, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

My reference to the vandalism undertaken was in regard to whole paragraphs of information such as temperament etc. being removed completely. This is not the place for personal issues but a place for people to learn about the Koolie dog, the information is not supplied by one person only. (Koolieoz 15:49, 11 May 2006 (UTC))

But it's okay for Kerrie and you to remove the information from the American German Coolie Club?? By you and/or Kerrie removing the valid information from the American German Coolie Club that is vandalism. The members of the GCCA kindly ask that you cease from removing the information about the German Coolie's that are in the USA. Why is ANY information removed unless it can be proven that it is definitely wrong? Is the German Coolie/Coolie/koolie related in any way to the GSD? Just out of interest Tjupurka (Kerrie), how long have you been breeding Coolies (Koolies) and how far back do the records of lineage go for your foundation brood bitch and stud dog? (Bonniebank 11:29, 12 May 2006 (UTC))

Bonniebank, though this is an old comment, I want to point out that Wiki's concept is to not allow ANY info which is not verifiable, so the burden of proof is upon the person providing that info. It's not a matter of proving that it is definitely wrong. It's a matter of YOU proving that it is definitely Right. --JT (talk) 17:33, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Marino?????
Would it be possible to at least spell the breed of sheep this country once rode on the back of, correctly eg: MERINO this is a reference page after all. I find it offensive that "researchers" cannot even take the time to be literate.

Sorry to offend you by a spelling error, if you google marino many people use it. This is a place to share knowledge, not personal attacks and agendas. Also good etiquet dictates signing your comments. (Koolieoz 10:18, 15 May 2006 (UTC))

Many people may use 'Marino' when referring to San Marino but if we're talking about the sheep breed you'll actually find that 'Merino' is the correct spelling. 'Etiquet'? Do you mean 'etiquette'

If you google "MERINO", you will find that the breed name is spelled, "MERINO", not MARINO.

Removal of Articles published by American German Coolie Club
Please refer to guide lines governing publishing in the Wikipedia. Information can be located upon linked website of American German Coolie so therefore unnecessary to display here. Suggestion: Information gathered from American German Coolie states that they believe their breed the German Coolie is a separate breed from the Australian Koolie, if this is the case then please publish upon your own page, and stop interfering with the Koolie stub. This issue has been referred to the controlling Committee of the Wikipedia.(Tjukurpa 00:29, 15 May 2006 (UTC))

Kerrie please stop deleting the information put up by the American German Coolie Club. If you do not cease vandalizing the information, warnings will be given and then a request to the Administration to lock the page will be made. Information can also be gathered from the KCA website, so linking to it should be the only information required, also. This is a public information media and not to be used for your personal advertisment. I have also referred comments to the Committee of the Wikipedia. I am not interferring with anything. The public has the right to read about the German Coolies that are in America without your permission as to what is written. Kerrie, Please refer to guide lines governing publishing in the Wikipedia. This is a PUBLIC media and welcomes information from other sources other than the KCA. ANY ONE can contribute to the information for this and any other article.

Removal of piece by American german coolie register from health section, was argumentative, not of a neutral nature and opinionated. (Tjukurpa 22:56, 24 May 2006 (UTC))

Edited comments & replace information
Comments referring to Associate register has no relevance on Koolie page. Alternative names for the Koolie are a factual historical part of the Koolie researched, discovered, recorded and submited by the Koolie Club of Australia (Tjukurpa 00:50, 15 May 2006 (UTC))

The comments are most definitely relevent to any Coolie owner wishing to trial their Coolie in any ANKC organised dog sport, given that it presents them with an alternative other than having to join the Koolie Club simply for their dog to be eligible to be placed on an ANKC register. This article is supposedly a source of information for the public and the public has a right to decide what is relevent to them, NOT what is only relevent to the KCA. The factual, historical alternate names for the Coolie were "discovered" LONG BEFORE the KCA was ever in existence. To state as above that they were "discovered" by the KCA is grossly misleading and should be removed.

Just out of interest Tjupurka, how long have you been breeding Coolies (Koolies) and how far back do the records of lineage go for your foundation brood bitch and stud dog? Bonniebank 03:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Is this an article on the Koolie or the Koolie Club of Australia? I am interested in reading about the breed not the club.

Romaval of item related to American working clubs there is no source, no links to these club in order to verify this statement.(Tjukurpa 03:57, 17 May 2006 (UTC))

They are linked now, just for you. Thanks so much for bringing that to my attention. What source is the "Temperament" derived from? Does any of Geoff Broughton, the president of the KCA, dogs actually work livestock, or are they just pets? He is cited for providing the information on the working style of the Koolie. Just wondering where he gathered his information from? Is this his opinion, or is he an authority on working dogs? Has he written any books or articles on the working dog? Does he train working dogs for the public, trials, or stations? Does he trial his dogs? Is he a trial judge for working dogs?

Removal of personal link, please refer to neutral point of view guide lines (Tjukurpa 08:38, 19 May 2006 (UTC))

Kerrie it was not a personal link, it was linked directly to the forum. It will be put back up on a continual basis. It's linked to the FORUM, not her site.

To whom it may concern- l have removed comments made by me using past user names Barrakee and Artorius. RangerDanielBoone (talk) 08:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Removal of article from health section of Koolie page
This peice has no source nor does it show any relevence to the Koolie breed.(Tjukurpa 02:42, 17 May 2006 (UTC))

The piece does have a source, is linked, and is relevant to the Coolie breed. It has the same relevance as the health piece from the KCA.

Removal of vandalisms and personal attacks from health section, keep your articles neutral. Edited sporting register piece to include links to forms for membership to both Sporting registrar and associate registrar of the VCA and general tidy up.(Tjukurpa 03:30, 24 May 2006 (UTC))

To the person or people who are not signing their comments, please refer to the Wikipedia guidelines. It is generally accepted that people placing articles also support their pieces by including ones identity with their comments. (Tjukurpa 03:30, 24 May 2006 (UTC))

Etiquette
Sorry I did not know how to put my name in, I am just someone interested in Dogs thats all. Not sure what you mean about personal attacks though? Surely correct spelling is important considering this is page for reference and research???? Dogsmum

Dogsmum, sorry again for some phonetic (is that right?) spelling, but this is just a discussion page regarding the article, for a decade or 2 our schools happily taught phonetically and I think we are now paying the price. Does that overshadow the information one might have to share with others though? If you look to the bottom of this page you will see the instructions on how to include your signature, others post personal comments and then don't even attach their name as you have let alone sign the comment. Also at the bottom of this page is a link to policies and guidelines which others should be reading that continue to make personal comments when this is a discussion on the article. I hope this spelling is OK (Koolieoz 10:29, 16 May 2006 (UTC))

'''==Guidelines from Wikipedia==  I feel you all need to read this information before you continue. It covers the three cardinal guide lines of the Wikipedia 1.Original research.(what it is and why it's not allowed) 2.Site your source 3.Nutural point of view If the sandpit attitude continues the page could be locked or worse deleted. If you have disputes then go to the dispute page and put forth your dispute. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution If your views differ make you own page. Your articles will continue to be edited until they conform to these guide lines, site your source, so your articles can be authenticated. Keep your opinions, smart remarks and personal attacks to yourself, this not a public forum or private email. This page is being monitored. (Tjukurpa 02:11, 17 May 2006 (UTC))'''

May I suggest Tjupurka that you follow your own advice. My entry regarding the associate register is relevent to Koolie owners. They are entitled to be informed of all the options if they wish to trial their Koolie. My source is the ANKC (a reliable one I should have thought). If you believe it to be totally irrelevent to Koolie owners then please state why. Perhaps you are unaware of a primary rule of thumb of Wikipedia and that is: If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it. Could you explain to me what you say is a "nutural" point of view? I'm sorry. I haven't heard that expression before. Thank you for the advice about reporting a dispute. I will be reporting and requesting a warning to anyone who removes any of my editing unless it can be proven that it is malicious or in no way pertains to Koolies.

You state that the contributions to the article were made by members of the KCA. Well I am a member. None of the contributions were made on my behalf nor was I ever consulted about this article. Therefore I conclude that the contributions were submitted by certain members of the KCA but can in no way be considered as being made on behalf of the KCA. Are contributions being accepted only from certain members or can all members have their say? If the latter is the case, then why are my contributions deleted? Personally, I would like to see this article deleted altogether if it is to be non-democratic. In order to learn more about these dogs and major contributors to the article and discussion I have been asking 3 simple questions but not receiving an answer. Again I ask: Why is ANY information removed unless it can be proven that it is definitely wrong? Is the German Coolie/Coolie/koolie related in any way to the GSD? Just out of interest Tjupurka, how long have you been breeding Coolies (Koolies) and how far back do the records of lineage go for your foundation brood bitch and stud dog? As for your comment regarding personal attacks, I wouldn't want anyone to think that this is why I'm interested in this article and wish to contribute to it. I'm not sure but is it a requirement on here that we should disclose any personal relationships with other contributors and what was entailed in them? I have deliberately tried to avoid any personal conflict and just want to help contribute to this article but if it is a requirement, please let me know and I'll gladly abide by the requirement. Koolieoz, please state your source that schools in Australia have taught phonetic spelling for 10-20 years. I contacted Dept Education in all states and was informed they have NEVER "taught" phonetic spelling (only made students aware of that type of spelling used in other countries such as USA). If my contributions to this article are to be continually deleted and anyone interested in the article would care to hear them, please feel free to contact me via email at Bonniebank2@bigpond.com

IMHO, a potential owner of ANY breed is entitled to gain as much info as they can then make up their own minds. Bonniebank 15:15, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

To whom it may concern- l have removed comments made by me using past user names Barrakee and Artorius. RangerDanielBoone (talk) 08:41, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

To quote you Tjupurka, "site your source, so your articles can be authenticated." So what is your source regarding the involvement of the German Tiger in the German Coolie/Coolie/Koolie "breed"? Is it verified or heresay and assumptions? If it is verified, by whom? I notice that the "source has not been sited" for several comments in the article other than to say that they were contributed by members of the Koolie Club. To quote you again Tjupurka, "If you have disputes then go to the dispute page and put forth your dispute". Perhaps you should follow your own advice? ANY article can be disputed. That's the beauty of this site. To quote you again Tjupurka, "If your views differ make you own page". Now I really AM confused. Is this page for exclusive usage or is it meant to be an open and honest page providing a source of research for those who are interested in German Coolies/Coolies/Koolies? Call them whatever you will, NONE of them are a recognised breed and are technically a CROSSBREED. From what I can gather, the only difference appears to be the name and what the dogs have been CROSSED with in recent years. If there is no "breed" recognition, then effectively what you have here are MUTTS. Plain and simple. If, (as has been stated on here) the Koolie Club have no aspirations to have the "breed" recognised, then why do "they" bother to list any conformation details at all? The "club" then contradicts "itself" by stating that the description is "based on it's ability to work". I assume this page was created for anyone who wants to learn and know more about these dogs and yet still my questions have not been answered. Not a good image for the club I would think. I ask AGAIN: 1.  Why is ANY information removed unless it can be proven that it is definitely wrong? 2.  Is the German Coolie/Coolie/koolie related in any way to the GSD? 3.  I'm not sure but is it a requirement on here that we should disclose any personal relationships with other contributors and what was entailed in them? I have deliberately tried to avoid any personal conflict and just want to help contribute to this article but if it is a requirement, please let me know and I'll gladly abide by the requirement. 4.  Koolieoz, please state your source that schools in Australia have taught phonetic spelling for 10-20 years. I contacted Dept Education in all states and was informed they have NEVER "taught" phonetic spelling (only made students aware of that type of spelling used in other countries such as USA). 5.  You appear to be very knowledgeable Tjupurka. How long have you been breeding Coolies (Koolies) and how far back do the records of lineage go for your foundation brood bitch and stud dog? 6.  The Three Revert Rule forbids the use of reverts in repetitive succession. Does this apply to EVERYONE? BTW, I didn't expect such a huge response to my invitation to email me privately. Thank you to those who have and I promise to reply within the next couple of days. :o)Bonniebank 13:12, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Edit needed....
...to conform with the (so far) generally accepted and admittedly loose policy of the Dog Project.

I'm going to edit out bias and a couple of guote marks, and move material to the relevant headings, i.e. the right paragraph, and make the style more encyclopedic. Maybe not today, but soon.

This is not the place for a dogfight, folks (you should forgive the pun). May I suggest that you write articles on the Koolie Club of Australia and the German Coolie Club of America if you are so inclined?

I suggest that, if there is a difference between the strain, the development, or the goal of the Koolie (Australian) and the German Coolie of America, that we make a separate chapter to discuss, and/or start a new article on the American dog. Quill 05:34, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Thank you for your input and guidance Quill, we appreciate any assistance you can give.
 * A seperate page for the American club was suggested, but I feel that our rather limited knowledge of the workings of the Wikipedia is a handicap, if you would be so generous as to explain this chapter option, possibly this could be a solution.(Tjukurpa 06:23, 28 May 2006 (UTC))
 * Well, I'm going to have a look at the main article now and see how it's shaping up. This entry should be a breed article, not a club article. Of course, the position of the two clubs can be presented, even if controversial, as long as the entries are presented without bias (read that as 'with as little bias as possible').  My gut feeling is that we don't really need separate articles here; see below.  As to 'chapter', I just meant different section headings. Quill 10:01, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Just a small thing, folks--if you will use a colon at the beginning of a reply, it will indent and we can tell who wrote what.  Each successive person uses an additional colon.  I've fixed this, and as you will see when you 'edit', my reply here has three colons in front of it.
 * (Add the same number of colons in front of each new paragraph, and again when you sign your name to the whole sh-bang.
 * Yes, Artorius, I realize this isn't an article for the Koolie Club of Australia, it's the main breed article. I was suggesting that you write an article on the German Coolie Club if you wished, and Tjukurpa could write one on the Koolie Club of Australia.  Or, if everyone could remain civil, both clubs could simply be mentioned in this article.  There isn't really a reason to write a whole article on a breed club unless it has a very illustrious history or a unique position of some sort, if that makes sense to you.
 * Quill 10:01, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Early 18th Century?
"Koolies have existed in Australia since the early 18th century."- I'm assuming this is a typo, since Australia wasn't settled until 1788. Kiwifruitboi 12:40, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Tone
This article is not up to standard - it needs mericiless editing of the unencylopediac style SatuSuro 14:11, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Hello not being a professional and only wishing to record the history of the Australian Koolie, much of which is still being discovered and/or created, I have styled the Koolie page very closely on many other breed pages that I have read in Wikipedia, including the featured ones.
 * I hope that it has been noticed the recent amount of work to improve this article proves we are very serious about providing quality information.
 * If you would be so kind as to define, specify or clarify which particular parts of this article you feel need to be worked on, possibly direct me to an actual article where I could see an example of the style/tone of which you refer, this would be appreciated.
 * As the article has been accepted as started, Wikipedia must have seen some potential, I shall endeavour to continue learning from the standards set within Wikipedia itself and offering my best contribution(I have read the help section of creating an artical.Tjukurpa (talk) 08:59, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

 * Dog breeds task force Recommended article structure

 * Annotated article is a well-constructed article, with annotations that explain why.

 * Citing sources explains process and standards for citing references in articles.

 * HTH, --Hafwyn (talk) 23:05, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

 * Thank you very much for your helpful suggestion and advice.

I have downloaded these examples and know they shall strengthen my understanding of what is required to improve my input in the article Tjukurpa (talk) 05:10, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Koolie Club of Australia

The article Koolie Club of Australia has been proposed for deletion  because of the following concern:
 * A search for references found only a minor mention of the subject in published (gBooks) works. Fails WP:N and WP:V

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Jeepday (talk) 16:59, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20140304014630/http://koolie.net:80/exons/index.php? to http://koolie.net/exons/index.php?

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External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Koolie. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20160206154323/http://asaplab.com.au/dnatesting/ to http://asaplab.com.au/dnatesting/

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Assessment comment
Substituted at 21:22, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

title: Talk:Koolie


text:
Talk:Komondor

comment
it says that in the odelay album cover (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odelay) there's a Komondor, but it would look more like white Hungarian Puli than a Komondor. Size of the dog seems rather small, and the body is clearly more square than rectangle shape.

 * I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I wonder if there's a reference out ont the web somewhere that states authoritatively what the breed is? Elf | Talk 23:27, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

 * I am pretty sure the dog on the album cover is the komondor Mount Everest Janci Jago. Please compare the image with this one: http://www.komondor.org/
 * As far as I know, "Mount Everest" is hungarian kennel, so the dog probably was imported from there. Also, it is not possible to measure the body format on photo of jumping dog with such coat. nikki (talk) 07:10, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

more about Komondor
There are not so much Komondor in the world, but it seems to be a very great dog. Some more information on www.komondor.fr

Mistake: This IS a Komondor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lynovella (talk • contribs) 09:18, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Eyes
How does it see through all the hair? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.134.181 (talk) 11:45, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Good question, some Hungarian Komondor breeders say that the dog can see through all that hair, and there is no need to do anything about it. Others say that cutting of some hair in front of the eyes might be helpfull (not everything but some of the dreadlocks). But be careful, not to cut everything at the same time, so the dogs eyes has a chance to get used to the light.

Warrington (talk) 12:31, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Is the "nothing special" Hungarian plural relevant?
What is the information in stating that the plural of komondor in Hungarian is komondorok?

You should by no means use this in English texts. By the way it is a perfectly regular plural mark. There is nothing special about it. Hungarian is regular in this kind of stuff, here you don't need to learn all the different forms like in English you have to learn the adjective form of a word. So it's pretty irrelevant info.

If you want to write in Hungarian, you know how to form plural (because it's absolutely perfectly regular), if you don't want to write in Hungarian then you will not need this info.

Hungarian language is made up of dozens of suffixes. If the plural is mentioned, why not mention other suffixes, too? Like the adjective 'komondoros', or the adverb 'komondorosan' or the word 'komondorral' meaning "with a komondor", or 'komondorom' "my komondor", or 'komondoraitokért' "for your comondors".

Tell me why this info is relevant to any reader. Qorilla (talk) 19:46, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Exactly, one should by no means use this in the English text. But when this is not included in the article some people start adding Komondorok all over the place, who knows why. It is there to stop them from doing this (some kids like to think they Komondor are experts). And it works.

Warrington (talk) 19:25, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

 * I don't really see the point in adding the plural. Should we add "vizslák" at Vizsla? Squash Racket (talk) 14:34, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

 * We don't need to add it there. It's already included.  The naming conventions for the animal are significant. ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:46, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

 * The naming conventions yes, but not the Hungarian plural form. The plural form added (yesterday) at Vizsla is also incorrect. Squash Racket (talk) 17:22, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Haha, Vizslak…. Sounds like a house, Rózsafa-lak...

Warrington (talk) 17:45, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

 * Thank goodness I brought this to your attention. My Hungarian is a bit rusty.  If you look at the goose article you will see the plural form mentioned there also.  What is the plural form of this beastie in English? ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:59, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

 * You speak Hungarian? I guess the goose article contains the plural form, because the English plural is grammatically remarkable (geese). The English plural form of Vizsla is not exceptional. But that's no big deal to me, I don't mind if it's there.
 * The same account added "Hungarian Wirehaired Vizslak" as a Hunglish plural. Do we need these in an encyclopedia? Squash Racket (talk) 18:14, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Hunglish, hehe. Warrington (talk) 18:57, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

No one answered my question asking what the English language plural form of Komondor is... But the answer to your question is yes, the encyclopedia article for the Komondor, a Hungarian dog breed, should note how it is pluralized in the language of its homeland. Also, what is the plural of goulash, and is there a connection to the word ghoulish? ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:27, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

 * Goulash is a soup, do these have plural forms?
 * The New York Times uses komondors, so we can accept it as the English plural form, which may be used on the English Wikipedia. Squash Racket (talk) 07:47, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Everything "has" a plural form in Hungarian, or better said: there is no such thing as a plural form, just the plural suffix, which can be attached to virtually any noun using certain grammatical rules. That is why the plural as such bears no relevant information in contrast to English where the 'plural' is a big deal, many irregularities and such. Also the English language hardly uses any other declension/case than the plural, that is why English speakers might think the plural is relevant, but Hungarian is different. Here the plural suffix is just one of the many regularly attachable suffixes. Please try to uderstand this. Qorilla (talk) 13:44, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

I think what it may be confusing, thoug, ( it confuses me sometimes) is that it looks like an irregular plural form because it is not only a simple –k attached to the word, but sometimes is -ok, (like Komondorok) but other times is -ák, Vizslák, or even -ik, like Pulik, Mudik, Pumik; I think I have seen even -ök and -ak too, and thus it might be a relevant information because of these  irregularities.

Warrington (talk) 16:04, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

That is called vowel harmony, a key feature of Hungarian. The plural suffix is -k and according to the noun it is attached to, a regular 'bound vowel' might get between them. This 'bound vowel' depends almost only on the phonemes in the noun, you don't have to learn it for each noun. These rules are not only true for the plural suffix, but for most of the suffixes. So let's call them Bound Vowel Rules:

 * if the last sound is a or e, it becomes á and é and the -k is attached: e.g. vizsla → vizslák
 * if the last sound is another vowel (not a or é) then the -k is simply attached: e.g. puli → pulik; mudi → mudik (with plural adjectives, a bound may come in)
 * if the last sound is a consonant then we have to look at the vowel backness:
 * if the word only has back (low) vowels (aáoóuú) then
 * adjectives (they can also have plural in Hungarian) will use -a- as the bound vowel: koszos → koszosak ('dirty')
 * nouns use -o- as bound vowel: komondor → komondorok, kuvasz → kuvaszok [except when an short old word only has one syllable and it contains a or á in which case the bound vowel might be -a-: vár → várak ('castle'); ház → házak ('house'); but newer words like bár ('bar'), gáz ('gas') etc. use the -o-: bárok, gázok]
 * if the word only has front (high) vowels (eéiíöőüű):
 * adjectives use -e- as bound vowel: vörös → vörösek;
 * nouns use:
 * if the word has an unrounded high vowel as last vowel (eéií) then the bound vowel is -e-: gyerek → gyerekek ('child'), zörej → zörejek ('noise');
 * if the word has a rounded high vowel (öőüű) as the last vowel, the bound vowel is most times -ö-: főnök → főnökök ('boss'), kör → körök ('circle'); [except for some short old words that use -e-: fül → fülek ('ear'), őz → őzek ('roe deer') ]
 * if the word has both back (low) and front (high) vowels and
 * the last vowel is back, then it will use the back type above,
 * the last vowel is front, then it is sometimes front, sometimes back, even for the same word: szlovén → szlovénok / szlovének ('Slovene'), norvég → norvégok / norvégek (Norwegian)

 * a handful of (extremely few, literally handful, only listed for completeness) old, seemingly front words work as back words (not only for the plural): férfi → férfiak ('man'), derék → derekak, cél → célok, szíj → szíjak

 * the stem also changes sometimes:
 * some short old words shorten their long vowel (but ó may change to a or o) and use -a- (for back, even instead of -o-) and -e- (for front, even instead of -ö-) bound vowel, and if the word ended in the long vowel an additional -v- comes in (sounds complicated, but is not):
 * nyár → nyarak ('summer'), kéz → kezek ('hand'), tűz → tüzek ('fire'), madár → madarak ('bird'), kanál → kanalak ('spoon'), út → utak ('road')
 * examples for the -v-: ló → lovak ('horse'), tó → tavak ('lake'), hó → havak ('snow'), fű → füvek, kő → kövek ('stone'), lé → levek ('juice')
 * with old words a sound may fall out if, with the plural, it would have the structure CVCVCVC (C for consonant, V for vowel) so it becomes CVCCVC. It doesn't happen with every kind of consonant. köröm → körmök ('nail' instead of *körömök), terem → termek ('room', not *teremek), kölyök → kölykök ('kid', not *kölyökök), torony → tornyok ('tower', not *toronyok), halom → halmok ('heap'), majom → majmok ('monkey')

So the system is a bit complicated to type in, but is absolutely easy to use and little children can use it without virtually any problem. I wrote everything that I could, I tried to inlcude every single type of suffix-attaching above. And again, this is not only the plural, the accusative suffix and many other suffixes follow the same basic rules. Verbs also use a similar system! If one uses Hungarian plural in English, one could also use many other suffixes like this, but I guess it wouldn't make much sense. So again, the plural is not special in Hungarian, it follows certain suffix-attaching rules, and can not be considered a separate form of the word. I understand that English only has the plural form, no cases or other suffixes, but Hungarian is a bit different, I think you see it now :) Qorilla (talk) 20:09, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The point is that you don't just add an s to form the plural form. So like goose, the plural form should be indicated. Quite simple really. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:00, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

 * You missed the point that the plural is not a unique thing. It is just one of the many-many suffixes that all use this kind of attaching-rules. There can be said much more relavant information about Hungarian nouns than showing one of the many suffixes attached to it. If we want to make an English language article to be a Hungarian grammar lesson. As I said the plural is not relevant. Why? Because if it is relevant, then the other suffixed forms are equally relevant. In English it might be relevant, because English only has this form or declension so English speakers think about the plural as a separate category.
 * This is a question of language... Goose-geese cannot be figured out, because it is irregular. 'Komondorok' is regular. A regular suffixed attached to a noun. So it is much more like "lunch - lunches" than "goose - geese". It is as simple as attaching an -s to the end, if one knows the attaching rules. Again I tell, we have dozens of suffixes like that, so it doesn't help to just tell one. Why pick the plural? Because it is special in English? Hungarian is differend from English in many ways.
 * And the article should be about the dog and not about the declension of it in the Hungarian language.
 * Again, English texts using a Hungarian plural form is ridiculous, it just shows how much one does not understand how the language works. It is like using Wiener Schnitzel as: I like das Wiener Schnitzel. Or: I would like a dinner mit einem Wiener Schnitzel. It's a pathetic mixture of languages. Hungarian is made up of morphemes (suffixes) that work the same way as for example the prepositions in English/German.
 * Should we use Komondorral at each occurrance of 'with Komondor'? Then why use the plural? Because by coincidence it is also a suffix in English? Should we use 'Komondoros' in place 'like Komondor'/'Komondor-like'? Then why the plural?
 * If you don't speak Hungarian then you don't need to know how to attach the plural suffix to this word. It's just irrelevant. 'komondorok' has nothing to do with this specific word, or this specific dog, it just follows the rules of suffix attaching.
 * I can't really explain this better... Try to think a bit different from English. For a start read pages in the Hungarian language article, or more specifically Hungarian noun phrases. Qorilla (talk) 23:09, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Jesus Christ. We can not add all this to the article....

Warrington (talk) 23:29, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Since I'm the one who brought up the whole Vizslak question I thought that I'd throw my ten cents into the ring on this issue. Here in the UK a number of leading kennels, certainly HWV kennels at any event, use the plural form Vizslak, often (though not always) to the exclusion of other plural forms. It is, clearly, the less frequently used plural form, but it is not rare per se and is also seemingly in usage across the English speaking world. Si

Qorilla contends that it is not an accurate or relevant plural form, which is clearly correct from a Hungarian perspective, so the question then is should the Wiki article reflect actual English usage (even if technically incorrect) or attempt to correct this apparently mistaken English language convention? In either event the term certainly warrants inclusion in the relevant articles but perhaps with an appropriate caveat or explanation.

As for Squash Racket's mention of Hunglish, and Qurilla's reference to a "ridiculous... pathetic mixture of languages" the conventional English names for the two Vizsla breeds are already a mixture of the two languanges. After all the Hungarian names are: Magyar Vizsla and Drotzörü Magyar Vizsla, and a full Anglicisation would see the breeds referred to as the Hungarian Pointer & Hungarian Wirehaired Pointer respectively - in the same way that the Deutscher Kurzhaariger Vorstehhund, Deutscher Drahthaariger Vorstehhund and Deutscher Langhaariger Vorstehhund are Anglicised as Shorthaired, Wirehaired and Longhaired German Pointers rather than as breeds of German Vorstehhund. This does not mean that either Vizsla or Vorstehhund literally translate into English as pointer (Vorstehhund is also used for all HPR breeds as well as for Setters) but rather that all of the breeds mentioned are forms of Pointer.

Finally it's worth considering that all languages are continually evolving and borrowing from one another and that basterdized and multi-lingual words regularly enter and are added to vocabularies, be they English or, indeed Hungarian. Also, bearing in mind that there are more HWV's in the UK (where the breed is undergoing something of a boom in popularity) than in any other single country, including their native Hungary, if some of the most influential English HWV kennels as well as the committee members of the Hungarian Wirehaired Vizsla Association maintain their usage of the word Vizslak, as they presumably will do, then a linguistic convention will become established.

(Joviankid (talk) 12:49, 10 March 2009 (UTC))

Edit war
This http://arikomondor.com/fci_standard.htm is not the current Federation Cynologique Internationale Hungarian Standard, only the Federation Cynologique Internationale,

Warrington (talk) 20:24, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

It is a copy in English of the current standard (2000 version). If you can find another link in english to this standard be my guest to change the link. The FCI site's english version is in Word DOC Format. If you compare the word document to the link mentioned above you will see that they are the same text.

One writes English with capital-letters. http://www.say-it-in-english.com/BasicEnglish8.html

THIS: http://www.komondor.org/html/hungarian_standard.html is the Hungarian standard.

Warrington (talk) 22:13, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

That is not the current Hungarian Standard, but the 1966 version. The link mentioned above is a copy of the current version, as of the year 2000. The second revision since the 1966 version, the other revision took place in 1993 I believe. Though there is no difference between the minimum height and weight stated in the 1966 version and the 2000 version. However the 2000 version no longer refers to the length-wither height proportion in terms of percentages, instead simple says under a section called Important proportions that "The body length sligthly exceeds the height at the withers." Which really is saying the same thing as the the 1966 version which states that the average length to wither height percentage is 104% though can range from 100% (square shaped) to 108%. Basically that the length should be the same as the withers at the minimum but on average should slightly exceed.

It is the 1998 standard. The average dog size is correct, and the standarsd did not changed significantly. You may want to take a look at the Hungarian Komondor klub dog pictures.

Warrington (talk) 23:11, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

True however the links should probably link to the current standard not an older version. Additionally, the comments that the breed is square shaped should probably be removed, as both the AKC and the FCI standards state that the length should exceed the height (therefore not square shaped) as well as the comment that the American breed standard "may be slightly longer than the height at the withers." As it implies that this is the exception or not the average. And I am fairly positive that is the 1966 version since there is no 1998 version, just a 1966, 1993 and 2000.

The reason I say the link is the 1966 version is that under size and weight, it lists percentages of different body parts with an average and an often column. The 1993 version just states under a heading of important proportions, "Length of body - approximately 104% of height at withers. Depth of brisket - approximately 45% of height at withers.  Width of body - approximately 28% of height at withers.  Length of head - approximately 46% of height at withers.  ". And then the 2000 version comments on proportions has already been stated above. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Meoconne (talk • contribs) 23:32, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

104% is very square.

Warrington (talk) 23:39, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

104% is not very square, since it no longer the definition of square (equal length and width). But I will grant you it is a rectangle that appears similar but not exact to a square, as Komondors with 30 inch withers, should on average have a length of 31.2 inches. But that aside neither of the breed standards use the term square or even the percentages any more, and the description should reflect this

Answer
Square in this case, is a dog description term often used for dogs about this proportions, like foxterrier.

http://arikomondor.com/fci_standard.htm FCI-Standard No 53 Dated 13.09.2000 ] The standard has not changed its general guidelines for decades.

Quote:

The Komondor is large in size and powerfully built. His appealing outward appearance and dignified deportment arouse respect and even fear in the observer. By nature he is not ingratiating. His robust body is covered by matted, corded, throughout dense, long hair. The body, seen sideways, forms a prone rectangle, little deviating from a square . The thickly coated head rises above the body. The tail is carried hanging down with its tip bent upwards, almost horizontal. The coat colour is ivoryHEIGHT AT WITHERS Dogs: Minimum 70 cm. Bitches: Minimum 65 cm. WEIGHT Dogs: 50 – 60 kg. Bitches: 40 – 50 kg.

Warrington (talk) 14:39, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Encyclopedia article on this breed
I hate to distract y'all from your measurements, but aren't these animals named after "dog of the Cumans" and is their heritage and introduction to Hungary mentioned? This seems more interesting to me than the AKC measurement guideline this article is becoming. I'm not sure any of that is notable other than a general description or perhaps a brief section about showdogs of this breed. Does the article on skunks give detailed measurements and standards liek this? ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:06, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I see there is a section at the end of the article. I think it should be moved up. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:37, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Very good, I always wanted to move that section there Warrington (talk) 18:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Relevant Komondor discussion from Warrington's talk page
"I don't see the problem. Also the AKC clearly says: 'large, muscular dog with plenty of bone and substance, covered with an unusual, heavy coat of white cords.' (italics mine) Squash Racket (talk) 14:37, 6 March 2009 (UTC)"

Exactly, it doesn¨t say :size doesn't matter, but the kid trys to bias the text in that direction. (with terible edits, upper case)

He keeps removing the following:

average females are 27 1/2 inches (70 cm)[4][5] at the withers, male Komondor are 31 1/2 inches (80 cm) [6] at the withers, making this one of the larger breed of dog.

and

''Height below the minimum is a fault. The body, seen sideways, forms a prone rectangle [11] Diversion from lower height limit as mentioned in the standard is a fault [12]

''(Ref FCI, Federation Cynologique Internationale)

And he keeps adding and emphasizing:

While large size is important, type, character, symmetry, movement and ruggedness are of the greatest importance and are on no account to be sacrificed for size alone. (American Kennel club)

This part  are on no account to be sacrificed for size alone, which might be interpreted or it reads  size it might not be an issue, if they are OK otherwhise.

he or others also added before Komondorok ewerywhere, that is why the remark that Komondorok is a Hungarian plural...

Everybody who have seen a real life Hungarian Komondor (or several) knows that this dog is a damn big dog.

I was arguing about this since 26 February.

Warrington (talk) 14:44, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

This one :

"Look at that picture (middle of the article, 4th pic from top). This is a Hungarian dog magazine, but I doubt the picture has a free license. But you can link to it. Squash Racket (talk) 15:38, 6 March 2009 (UTC)"

No, but I see problems thoug with American Komondor breeders interpretation of the Acf standard, (and this editor), also with the Wesminster Dog picture here (which might give the wrong impression about this breed). Also, take a look a the American Westminster Kennel Club Dog Shows Komonndors, see their webb picture here http://clubs.akc.org/kca/theshow.htm.

This picture on the right is from the article, I whish it wasn’t a free image...

Warrington (talk) 15:43, 6 March 2009 (UTC) :I think you have to accept what AKC says pointing out that the info is according to AKC's standard. BTW is there really a contradiction? Quote: Dogs 27½ inches and up at the withers; bitches 25½ inches and up at the withers. Dogs are approximately 100 pounds and up, bitches, approximately 80 pounds and up at maturity, with plenty of bone and substance. The best would be probably to find reliable sources about whether there's a difference between Hungarian and American standards. Squash Racket (talk) 15:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

AKC is not a problem. The dogs on the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show are the problem, which is considered by many to be America's most prestigious dog show. They have extremely short legs, and very long bodies. This webb is reliable, http://clubs.akc.org/kca/theshow.htm KCA National Specialty Best of Breed Winners.

Warrington (talk) 16:05, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

"If only the picture is the problem, you can remove it as 'not typical' of the breed. Squash Racket (talk) 16:14, 6 March 2009 (UTC)"

I tried to delete it as "not typical" of the breed, already, but it didn’t work, because people here don’t understand what this is all about.

If it is from the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show than it has to be right...

Since this is such a prestigious dog show, everybody is watching it in U.S., American  people think that this is the right kind of Komondor, since the breed is not well known in the U.S.,

According to this webb there is around 120 Komondors in  the US http://www.canismajor.com/dog/livestck.html#Kom

They take this photo as a reference, because they have not seen many Komondors. Not like Hungarian kids who have seen hundreds of Komondors on pictures and in real life, walked on the streets.

They take this as a reference, because they have not seen many Komondors, and it is also very bad for an encyclopaedia to show a "not typical" picture of the breed, exactly for the reasons described above.

It would be nice to have that picture "Komondor kutyák királya", where the dog is jumping on the guy. Now that is something to show.

Dogs are not kebab, each country should have his own type...

Warrington (talk) 16:25, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Also:

I was arguing with several people about this at the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show talk page that this dog is not typical, but the answer is always :If it is from the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show than it has to be right. Won’t let me even put a note at the picture text: this dog is a very small dog according to its breeds standard.

And now they try to modify the Komondor article too, so it should fit their perception of the breed, trying to make it sound that size is not so important and removing average height and weight, important remarks about this dog breed, and also the remark about that this is one of the largest dog breeds, and emphasizing nothing but the minimum size all the time. Slight, subtle changes about the way the appearance section reads.

Warrington (talk) 16:47, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Comments here
I don't see what the problem with the last edit was. The appearance description was taken directly from the FCI Hungarian Standard general appearance quote that you yourself put up in this discussion. And additionally the size comments were using the minimums and averages that are consistent with both the AKC and FCI breed standards. It seems like taking wording from a reputable source doesn't seem like trying to bias so that the size isn't the most important thing. Especially since the descriptions from breed standards are formed by experts of the breed. And while you may consider yourself quite knowledgeable or even an expert in the Komondor, that doesn't necessarily make you one. Not that I am trying to say that I am an expert because I would be the first to admit that I am not, I do however believe that taking wording from those who are experts is better than trying to either paraphrase what you have learned, or what you have gotten from the standards.

Additionally, I feel that bringing up comments again that Quincy is a below breed standard dog is uncalled for, as for one at 29.5 inch that is not below the breed standard and two it just insults an accomplished dog, that you are claiming is poor without ever having met the dog. And while us Americans are proud of Westminster, the reputation of it as a top show is not just an American idea, but it is a reputation that it has gained in the international stage as well, similar to Cruft's. Also if you read the discussion post from the breeder of Quincy herself, the dog is not just accomplished in the American show rings but Internationally as well.

The truth of the matter is that American Breeder and Hungarian breeders do differ on what attributes are the most important to breed for. It is my understand that size is of the utmost concern to Hungarian breeders, whereas American breeders focus first on health, then temperament and finally size. That doesn't make one better than the other just different. The last posts on size were an attempt to strike a compromise between the two ideologies, such that the minimum size is listed then the average as it makes logical sense to comment in order of increasing magnitude, if there was a maximum height then it would make sense to list that after the average. Also The weights were taken from the Hungarian standards, as oppose to the slightly broader AKC standard. There are other references I have seen that vary in the weights, including a different books on Komondors, one which stated that females should be 60 pounds or higher differing from the low range of Hungarian standards by 28 lb. That being said it seemed like stating that the average was the Hungarian standard.

I am not trying to change things just to bias things or be a pain or just be a troublesome kid as you refered to me earlier, I am just trying to help the article so that it properly reflects the breed and reads well. I am also trying to present you with logical arguments, and I would appreciate if you were to do the same and refrain from insulting the other posters myself included, through insulting our typos or our grammar (which your has not been perfect either) or trying to belittle us through calling us kids or uninformed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.121.204.57 (talk) 21:46, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Removing sentences like This is one of the largest breed, removing average height (which is about 90 inches) and leaving only minimum height and removing square dog type – (a usual description used for this dog body type) is not helpful and it is exactly trying to change things just to bias things in the article. Kids or adult.

Warrington (talk) 12:49, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Unnecessary Comments
Warrington, could you please remove from the discussion page your personal opinions about Quincy as the majority of the comments are misrepresenting the dog as well as insulting. While personal opinions are welcome in these talk pages, a personal attack against Quincy or an Ad hominem attack are not allowed as stated in the Wiki: talk guidelines. You have also through your language suggested that some of us who are posting are not knowledgeable when it comes to Komondors (i.e. suggesting we have never seen one, etc, which seems silly since if we didn't know the breed well, having not owned or bred the breed that we would care enough to spend time arguing over the representation of the Komondor.) While I can blow off personal attacks it does bother me a great deal to see you insult a dog that you have never met. If you do not think that you should take back your comments, I feel I will have to start a dispute resolution and ask for Wikipedia arbitration on the issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Meoconne (talk • contribs) 01:19, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but non of these things are insults.

And I had no idea that the dog in the picture is called Quincy. Is it your dog? Or some of your friends)

Warrington (talk) 12:49, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

No the dog is not mine or any of my friends. I read the post by the owner on the Westminster Page and therefore knew the name of the dog. And yes they are insulting, as you are basically saying it is a poor Komondor and that it is small for the breed standard and other comments that have no factual basis.

(unsigned comment of some of the accouns or the IP)

I am only saying that the dog in the picture is small for the breed standard as far I can judge that from the picture, yes.

The original source of the picture is flickr, Source=Flickr http://flickr.com/photos/48685334@N00/389392345/ here and it does not state the name of the Komondor in the picture. Also, the dog in the picture has no particular signalments which may identify it.

Comparing Quimcy (somebody presented an other picture about a dog indeed called Quincy here http://clubs.akc.org/kca/theshow.htm.) in that picture, compared to to all the standards of the Komondor breed, yes it is not a typical dog, that is not an insult, it is a fact. That dog has a too long body. You may see it as an insult, but that is your personalinterpretation, and not a neutral point of wiew.

Facts
That Quinct dog is not corresponding to the FCI International standard FCI-Standard No 53 Dated 13.09.2000, about body lengh around 104% of height at withers, and Back : Short. see http://arikomondor.com/fci_standard.htm  - like many of the dogs presented here do not corespond to this standard requirement  http://clubs.akc.org/kca/theshow.htm.

can not be based on one single and also not typical dog, All this is about creating a correct encyclopaedia which (Quincy). Sorry.

Warrington (talk) 12:26, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Average height
One can not write an encyclopaedia and only present the minimum hight of a dog breed, that is misleading, especially when so bad pictures are around - it will only mess up things even more. Average hight is indeed necessary.

Warrington (talk) 22:33, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I am not trying to only put minimum height but both minimum height and average height. With minimum listed first as that makes the most logical sense and is standard practice to go from small to large. Like I said before if there was a maximum height comment. Saying the min, average and max would make sense as an order.

Additionally the previous version read very awkward, as there were multiple capitalization and punctuation problems. It didn't really flow well and repeated it self about the height fault in the paragraph. The most recent version the general appearance that you linked before reads quite well and should be free of biases as it was written by the people who came up with the standard. Additionally the size section does not make any indication as to what size is preferable but simply states this is the min and this is the average, and then this is the average weight. Also keeping consistent the primary measurement, meaning it states the US standard measurement first with the metric in parenthesis following that measurements. If you feel this should be changed again before you do so, would you willing to state in the discussion first why things should be reverted, as it seems to me like the same information is being presented but in better form and less awkwardly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Meoconne (talk • contribs) 00:13, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Both minimum height and average height is mentioned in the article. What you do is that repetedly remove average height and leave only minimun height, which gives the impression to the readers that the Komondor is smaller than actually is. Please don't do that again.

Warrington (talk) 13:20, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Are you actually reading the edits or just seeing that someone changed yours and so you change it back. If you look at what is said, it listed the min height and average height. The average height is listed NOT REMOVED. I admit in some of the previous edits that started this I was just trying to correct when it listed the average heights as the minimum height, which is inaccurate. The edits attempted just to put the breed standard so it wouldn't be biased by my or your wording and they both listed the minimum heights not averages. It wasn't an attempt to emphasize the smaller size. That being said the last two edits listed both the minimum and average. The edit you keep changing it back to reads confusingly (as it appears to be just listing some sentences that were in previous edits without proper transitioning or in a logical order) and is full of grammatical mistakes.

Similar breeds
It would be nice to mention the other Hungarian breeds, especially other sheep dogs and those with similar characteristics. Pulli Munid, Viksalz, etc. etc. ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:55, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Sure. Tre only mentioned breed, Puli was just removed today by combined IP adress :70.121.204.57 and User:Meoconne. I think this all together qualifies as Edit war, disruptive editing,, copright violation, , bias, non-NPOV edits Neutral point of view and sockpuppetry.

OK if you actual read the reason for the removal of that particular line is that it does not seem appropriate to be mentioning another breed of dog in the introduction of the page. You'll notice it still mentioned in the history and if one were to start a section near the end talking about Hungarian dogs in general you know what that would be OK as well.As for the litany of things i am doing, since most of the reason you seem to be upset with me is with the appearance section which I have been trying to change it to reflect the AKC and FCI standard with their wording they would be non-biased and not my point of view. And while I did quote the FCI general appearance (which you listed above and if not fair use you also violated copyright) I am fairly positive it is fair use, however I am emailing the organization asking if I can quote them on the wikipedia page, and thereby avoid copyright violation.

Oh also, while this seems like it is an edit war, you are just as responsible as I am for it, remember that. Also part of the reason there are two accounts is that I have posted a couple of times before I made a user account and when I forgot to log into that user account, it wasn't an attempt to make it seem like more than one person is talking.

See also Great Dane

In the ratio between length and height, the Great Dane should be square. The male shall not be less than 30 inches (75 cm) at the shoulders, but it is preferable that he be 32 inches or more (>80 cm), providing he is well proportioned to his height. The female shall not be less than 28 inches (70 cm) at the shoulders, but it is preferable that she be 30 inches or more (>75 cm), providing she is well proportioned to her height. Danes under minimum height must be disqualified.

Warrington (talk) 20:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Now, a Komondor which is almost as big as the Great Dane, (average 30 inches) than  is this picture really a good one on a Komondor?

this one is much better in that case
 * Komondor pictures (Hungarian)

''The Komondors appearance is dignified and commands respect. [5] The average females are 27 1/2 inches (70 cm)[6][7] at the withers, male Komondor are 31 1/2 inches (80 cm) [8] at the withers, making this one of the larger breed of dog. Females should be be minimum 25.5 inches[9] (65cm)[10] at the withers, and males a minimum of 27.5 inches[11] (70cm)[12] at the withers, height below the minimum is a fault. Males are generally between 50 - 60 kg or 110 - 132 lb[13] females 40 - 50 kg or 88 - 110 lb[14] at maturity. The body, seen sideways, forms a prone rectangle [15] Diversion from lower height limit as mentioned in the standard is a fault [16] The standard has not changed its general guidelines.''

''however, people unfamiliar with the breed are often surprised by how quick and agile the dogs are. According to the American breed standard,.[17] the body[18] may be slightly longer than the height at the withers.''

One can not write an encyclopaedia and only present the minimum hight of a dog breed, that is a misconception, especially when so bad pictures are around - it will only mess up things even more. Average hight is indeed necessary.

BTW you removed average hight AGAIN.

Warrington (talk) 11:44, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

If you read what has been changed, you will notice that the average HEIGHT (not hight) has never been removed. Also, the Great Dane photo you chose was very odd. It is like comparing to the jumping Komondor on the front of the Beck, Odelay, CD! The Great Dane is mid-jump and most likely jumping on a woman who is less than 6'3" (the height of the Komondor handler in the photo). There is no valid point of reference here.

Also, please explain your reasoning for including information about the Puli on the Komondor page. It is not a "miniature Komondor", it is merely another breed from Hungary with a similar coat style. Should you also comment that poodles can be corded too? Or maybe start a completely new page about the cording process of different dogs? Or a new page completely about the different dogs from Hungary?

As for your constant edit warring, please take the time to make sure your edits are grammatically correct and make sense (use consistent measurement units etc.), before flaming those who edit your statements simply to make them intelligible (I have looked at the previous edits). Lynovella (talk) 20:35, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Average HEIGHT has never been removed?  Scuse me, but what are you talking about? Do you think I don’t know what happened?

Both average height has been removed, (several times), upper limit (sourced), mentioning other similar Hugarian sheepdogs and so on, all of them are  extremely relevant information for this article, and when I put them back you keep removing them, and produce a lot of unhelpful edits isntead, without any consensus - and you know that wery well.

This IS exactely what edit war is. Who started it? You started that

Wikipedia is not a playground, it is an encyclopaedia for the readers.

What is happened here lately is this: The three accounts have reorganized the edits to emphasize minimum height, moved around text, and the sentence which before was one of the first sentences, The average[10] females are 27 1/2 inches (70 cm)[11][12] at the withers, male Komondor are 31 1/2 inches (80 cm) [13] at the withers,  making this one of the larger breed of dog . The part  making this one of the larger breed of dog  dissapeared somewhere. And this part of the sentence it was in the article for several years, unchanged : many are over 30 inches tall, making this one of the larger common breeds of dog, before you started editing this article.

It wasn’t even me who added that, it was there long before my time.

Now it is not there any more.

Warrington (talk) 10:10, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

 * I think noting that the poodle used to have the same corded style of coat is very interesting and notable. It would make a good addition to the article, as would coverage of other Hungarian sheep dogs and other breeds that are similar or notably related to this animal in some respect. ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:47, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Thid Person Arbritation
Talk:Komondor. Disagreement whether comments on CH Gillian's Quintessential Quincy are disparaging and should be removed from the main Komondor talk page. 20:26, 7 March 2009 (UTC) meoconne

Listen, I could and can wrote those things all over again, it was just moore easy to move them here, than write them down two times, that’s all.

Warrington (talk) 23:51, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Late to comment
Warrington had asked me to look over this page. I got a little time only now. I'm not sure I'm clear on what the problem is and, to be honest, I haven't read everyone's comments. There was a photo and in my uninformed opinion it looked like a Komondor to me. I have seen a Komondor a few years ago in Hungary and it was a tall dog, but not anything real huge. It's head was right at my hip and the wide shape of the head is what struck me the most about this dog. It seems there's some disagreement regarding which standard of the breed to use. Warrington argues that, being a Hungarian dog breed, it should be the Hungarian standard. I somewhat agree, but it seems that other widely used standards could be mentioned alongside the Hungarian one. Is there some Wikipedia policy on animal standards? I took a look at Komondor and found a link to the Hungarian standard: http://www.komondorklub.hu/standard.htm It is the FCI one. I'm guessing that the Hungarians influenced the FCI standard. Google now somewhat translates Hungarian, btw. They say something about preserving the height but not increasing it. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 22:57, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Good With Kids?
Komondors are also VERY good with kids! All age kids! they will not race up to them or bite or be agrusive, Tere GREAT WITH KIDS! From Babies To teens!

I believe you 24.144.14.84 (talk) 03:40, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Height issues
Perhaps to resolve the issues about minimum vs average height we could include a section on the AKC breed standard description? — Preceding unsigned comment added by DrSaturn (talk • contribs) 16:38, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

BIS?
They say in the article that the dog in the first picture in the Komondor article is a Best in Show winner of the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show in 2007. (Removed now)

But when checking on the top honors of List of Best in Show winners of the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show, the dog is not there in the top honors list 2007, here the overall Best in Show winner of the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show was a springer spaniel instead. Nothing here att best of breeds in 2007 either,  The dog had one award, meaning, in this case  actually best of 3 of all the 3 komondors  of only 3 Komondor entries. Best of 3 is not much. It was never a Best in Show winner, was not Best of Breeds in 2007 either, see results here. This picture is missleading. Remove. Hafspajen (talk) 16:36, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Komondor


text:
Talk:Kerry Blue Terrier

Vulnerable Native Breed
This breed is classed in Britain as a VNB - a breed which originated in the UK but now has registration numbers with the Kennel Club of less then 300 puppies per year.

I'm a Canadian teenager on a gap year before Uni and I'm really interested in this. Would anyone like a VNB paragraph/link on this page? I can write it, but am ignorant about formatting etc. Plus, I'm trying to put together a whole collection on all 29 breeds on this list, including history and so on, using Wikipedia as one of my many sources. If you can help, or are interested at all, please contact me either on my talk page or at green_ied_dragon@hotmail.com

--The Wizard of Magicland 19:31, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Working Breed
A great many show-dog breeds claim to be working dogs. It is afterall more romantic. Does anyone have a photo of a working KBT. What sort of work would they do?--Counsel 23:42, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Kerry blue terrier
Rmđjluužiž 87.116.167.235 (talk) 16:51, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Proposed merger of Spiculosis
Request received to merge articles: Spiculosis into Kerry Blue Terrier; dated: 1/24. Proposer's Rationale: {not stated}. I'm proposing to merge spiculosis with Kerry Blue Terrier under the health section, as this is a rare and obscure condition only known in the breed. Current article doesn't meet notability and the information that is good (some of it is simply incorrect such as calling the breed a 'species') would benefit the article. Which needs tidying up which I'll get to alongside the merge proposal. Traumnovelle (talk) 07:25, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Kerry Blue Terrier


text:
Talk:Irish Red and White Setter

Untitled
See WikiProject Dog breeds.

Vulnerable Native Breed
This breed is classed in Britain as a VNB - a breed which originated in the UK but now has registration numbers with the Kennel Club of less then 300 puppies per year.

I'm a Canadian teenager on a gap year before Uni and I'm really interested in this. Would anyone like a VNB paragraph/link on this page? I can write it, but am ignorant about formatting etc. Plus, I'm trying to put together a whole collection on all 29 breeds on this list, including history and so on, using Wikipedia as one of my many sources. If you can help, or are interested at all, please contact me either on my talk page or at green_ied_dragon@hotmail.com

--The Wizard of Magicland 19:29, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Image
Is this guy a Red & White Setter? Seems like he's got the colours right, I don't know if there's more to it or not... pfctdayelise (translate?) 15:06, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes, looks like one and the other dog in the photos looks like an English Setter. Only two years for a reply, not too bad! AWoodland (talk) 22:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Assured breeder scheme
The KC only accepts CLAD and vWD clear dogs for registration. So isn't the ABS test requirements for both kind of unnecessary? If you buy a KC registered IRWS born after 1st Jan 2011, it will be clear of both diseases.

OK, strictly speaking ABS requires testing but actual status is irrelevant. The registration rules on the other hand only requires a clear status, you don't need to test the parents.--Dodo bird (talk) 02:36, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi, I've tried to clarify that IRWS breeders who are ABS members are still required to continue testing - as at March 2013 anyway; I believe that in another breed, the breed clubs intended to request the KC ABS continue imposing restrictions in case any errors had slipped through. I can't find any refs that give reasons for it continuing in IRWS, so have just tried to show that it has not been revoked. Does that help?  SagaciousPhil   -  Chat  09:39, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Irish Red and White Setter