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Talk:Kamarupa

Legacy of Kamarupa
Boundaries of Kamarupa should be properly verified before claiming legacy. भास्कर् bhagawati Speak 19:17, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

 * Of course, the Ahom Kingdom was not as big as the Kamarupa. But the Ahom kingdom claimed legacy, as has been noted by Guha.  That is significant, because they were the most powerful and enduring of the sovereign medieval kingdoms in the region.  Chaipau (talk) 20:12, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

 * Kamarupa Kingdom's was more national kingdom than regional; politically, geographically, culturally and it had signficant areas outside the region. भास्कर् Bhagawati  Speak 05:07, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

 * Only source provided read Guha writes that from the 1530s when Tonkham, an Ahom general, pursued the defeated Turko-Afghan adventurers of Turbak to the Karatoya river, the traditional western boundary of the Kamarupa kingdom, '"the washing of the sword in the Karatoya" became a symbol of the Assamese aspiration, repeatedly evoked in the Bar-mels and mentioned in the chronicles. Its does not mention how long it hold the traditional western limit, after reaching there after chase, as the Western Assam specifically Goalpara was continued to be under Koch and Turkish. So, i ask you to remove the baseless claim. भास्कर् Bhagawati  Speak 09:23, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

 * Amalendu Guha is a well known and accomplished historian. He was an executive member of the India History Congress, president of North East History Association, president of Indian History Congress Modern India Session etc.  So he is an expert and authority in his area of study.  Besides, the work that has been referred to has been published in a widely recognized, edited scholarly journal, the Social Scientist .  Therefore, the citation is used here as a secondary source with considerable weight.   When he says "repeatedly evoked in the Bar-mels and mentioned in the chronicles", he is referring to the many times the Kamarupa kingdom has been invoked and recorded in the Buranjis (chronicles).  The fact that the Ahoms invoked the Kamarupa kingdom is an example of the weight of the Kamarupa legacy, and used here to emphasize the enduring notability of Kamarupa.  I do not see why this reference should be removed. Chaipau (talk) 11:08, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
 * As far as i know, Guha was not a Kamrup historian, nor he is saying what you claiming.Yes, for inspiration it indeed inspired later political identities but an single entity alone cannot claim legacy without reaching even half of its glory. भास्कर् Bhagawati  Speak 13:15, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Please remove the panegyric text. भास्कर् Bhagawati  Speak 13:09, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia does not work on diktat. Please take it to dispute resolution.  Chaipau (talk) 10:03, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Early sources
Periplus and Geographia are widely quoted in most history texts on Kamarupa/Assam. For example, P C Choudhury discusses these sources in great detail in his History of the People of Assam. I am removing the tag. Chaipau (talk) 10:00, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Pre-kingdom subject matter are outside the scope of this article, which needs its own article; look for it. P.C Choudhry refers to ancient Kamrup when he made references of previous sources, first sources for kingdom found from 4th century and later. Please don't remove tags without properly addressing the issues. Thanks. भास्कर् Bhagawati  Speak 08:05, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't think you understand how history is written or read. Puri has used the absence of any Mauryan record on Kamarupa to derive information about the Kamarupa.  Your style is disruptive editing (WP:DE)  You have been doing this in many articles related to Kamrup/Kamarupa.  Chaipau (talk) 10:26, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Well instead of mud slinging, you should address issue on hand. Gupta sources are available for the Kamrup kingdom. Rajtarangini and Raghuvamsa are important sources too, and are within the scope of this article. Tag is placed for superfluous text. भास्कर् Bhagawati  Speak 19:33, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The only Gupta source, Samudragupta's pillar, is already mentioned. The Rajatarangini (12th century) and Kalidasa's Raghuvamsha (5th century) are late texts.  If the information there are important, you should definitely quote secondary texts (not them directly).  Chaipau (talk) 00:12, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I think you need to look for some more books on Kamrup, then maybe we can discuss how Kamrup kingdom information were reconstructed. Now, point here is non inclusion of unrelated information in this article, as it is confusing for readers and depicts wrong picture of the kingdom. Finally, i request you to find middle ways than unproductive arguments every time.Peace. भास्कर् Bhagawati  Speak 13:49, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
 * You claim that the information is unrelated. On the other hand, the reference I have quoted is from D C Sircar, a well known historian (General President of Indian History Congress), who thought it was relevant!  And I have quoted from a book that has been edited by another historian, H K Borpujari.  So I am quoting a tertiary source from a well known expert that has been vetted by another well known expert.  So I am in very good standing here, despite what you write above.  Chaipau (talk) 17:59, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
 * You discussing in circles, all they are referring to an ancient land not 350-1140 political entity. If you keen to include older sources, then do it in appropriate article. As we discussed earlier, related sources here are Raghuvaṃśa, Rajtarangini, Harshacharita and others. भास्कर् Bhagawati  Speak 21:56, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I apologize if my argument is confusing you. I have provided authoritative secondary/tertiary sources which too had had Kamarupa as their primary subject.  I am not quoting sources that are making tangential remarks on the subject.  The experts do think that they provide historical context and have cited them.  Your argument, that sources dated between 350-1140 be used, makes no sense.  Chaipau (talk) 11:28, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
 * You now just repeating your earlier position, Your argument, that sources dated between 350-1140 be used, makes no sense it is the case of misinterpretation, i said sources which deals with 350-1140 political entity should be used. भास्कर् Bhagawati  Speak 13:20, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
 * You do not get to make rules at whim here. These references give historical context to Kamarupa in Wikipedia, just as they are doing in expert monographs.  Chaipau (talk) 16:15, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Kamarupa is an ambiguous term, it means different things in different times. No, point in reinstating your position in every line. भास्कर् Bhagawati  Speak 08:14, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
 * What is your position now? भास्कर् Bhagawati  Speak 13:11, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Importance-Section tag removed
This section Kamarupa cites from secondary/tertiary sources that discuss Kamarupa as the primary subject (Puri 1968, Sircar 1990, Sharma 1978). This section is important since it places Kamarupa in the proper historical context. The specific points that it makes are as follows:
 * The absence of any mention in the Mauryan inscriptions indicates that this region had very little significance to the first major Empire in the Indian subcontinent. The later Kamarupa kingdom came into being outside the expansive boundary of the Mauryan kingdom.
 * The mention of the Kirrhadia people, and the association with the Kirata people indicates that in the first century the region that later became the Kamarupa kingdom was inhabited but that existed no discernible state structure.
 * That Indian traders would come in and take possession of the malabathrum at the boundary indicates that the contact with the people of the region was not at all intimate and the contact was of a kind that was not based on a barter system, not even a primitive form.

Therefore I am removing the notice.

Chaipau (talk) 16:33, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

 * The entire article needs rewriting, citing correctly and not synthesising stuff. It all seems very speculative. - Sitush (talk) 16:50, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Where is the speculation? The article is extensively cited.  Please do not remove citations and then call it speculative. Chaipau (talk) 19:13, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Map
This map is unsourced, and is not supported by the D. C. Sircar reference. If you look closely at the file, it is clear that the uploader has simply drawn some random borders over an existing map, probably in MS Paint. A map like this needs reliable sources. utcursch | talk 01:52, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

 * The map given on page 281 of Anima Dutta's 2008 thesis is not at all same as this map. utcursch | talk 02:39, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

 * The differ in only minor cartographic details, but follow the same principles. They show the same regions as being part of the kingdom (part of Bhutan, part of Arunachal Pradesh, Pundravardhana, Samatata, North Bengal, Brahmaputra valley) and having a roughly triangular shape (as mentioned in many manuscripts).  I shall provide a more exact copy later.  Chaipau (talk) 09:06, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

 * Those are not "minor" details: if you look at the rivers, it is evident that the boundaries are way off. Also, the area is exaggerated by a lot. utcursch | talk 14:03, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

 * Could you please specify which rivers? The western boundary of the Kamarupa kingdom was the Karatoya river, whereas in the map here, the western boundary is shown as nearly on the Brahmaputra.  So the current map shows an area which is small compared to the reference map, unlike what you claim.  The lower vertex of the triangle is at the point where the Brahmaputra meets the Ganga.  This is OK.  The Kamarupa kingdom does not include Tripura and Manipur, which also agrees with the reference map.  And as I said I shall update the map according to the reference.  Chaipau (talk) 15:00, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you here. Here are the two maps on same scale, using the Brahmaputra river as reference: http://i.imgur.com/B4avCLm.png -- the blue one is from Anima Dutta's thesis; the red one is the map created by the Wikipedia user. utcursch | talk 00:31, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

 * I have updated the map. The boundary is traced from the Acharya map after georeferencing.  Chaipau (talk) 02:22, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

 * Thanks, this is a better map. utcursch | talk 03:31, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

North Bengal is redundant
North Bengal = Northern part of Bangladesh and West Bengal.
 * "Kamarupa at its height covered the entire Brahmaputra Valley, North Bengal, Bhutan and northern part of Bangladesh, and at times portions of West Bengal and Bihar."

The sentence doesn't make sense. "North Bengal" is redundant here. - Ash wki (talk) 06:56, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
 * North Bengal is northern part of the West Bengal, which is not in Bangladesh. At other times other portions of West Bengal, like Karnasubarna, which is not North Bengal was part of the Kamarupa control for short periods of time.  Chaipau (talk) 12:06, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:52, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Kamarupa map.png

Kamarupa successor
Kamarupa kingdom was succeeded by Kamata kingdom not by Ahom kingdom. Ahom kingdom is successor of Chutiya kingdom. Then they made alliance with Koch Darrang and Kachari in last phase. Stop over appreciation of Ahom. Ahom have no relation in Kamarupa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PerfectingNEI (talk • contribs) 19:17, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

 * Kamrupa Kingdom legacy was succeeded by Ahom kingdom Jonardondishant (talk) 02:35, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Gopatha Brahmana
Gopatha Brahmana is an old text, written before the Christian era. It does not explain a kingdom from the 4th century. Please do not insert wrong information, just because it has been published. Chaipau (talk) 10:30, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Kamrup/Kamarupa is disambiguation page, thus it has multiple meanings (ancient region, kingdom, district etc). Here, we are concerned about its origins (of Kamarupa word), so i request you not to remove academic viewpoints on this. भास्कर् Bhagawati  Speak  12:11, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Kamarupa is not a disambiguation page. Please, no WP:GAME on Wikipedia. Chaipau (talk) 12:18, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
 * This debate over Kamrup/Kamarupa already done before, also consider Kamarupa kingdom as title, see "Early History of Kamarupa: from the Earliest Times to the End of the Sixteenth Century", Kamarupa kingdom period is 4th to 12th century; so i don't think it is a matter of debate ? भास्कर् Bhagawati  Speak  12:30, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I again request you to gain consensus here before removal of academic viewpoints from this article, edit warring is not useful. भास्कर् Bhagawati  Speak  12:36, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Similarly, I request you to get consensus here before inserting irrelevant materials. Chaipau (talk) 12:39, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
 * You arrogantly overlooked my request and forcefully removed the cited content. भास्कर् Bhagawati  Speak  12:51, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Modern authors that do not examine primary sources critically should not be used, especially those relating legendary stories. Mythologies and legends should not be construed as history.  Chaipau (talk) 13:24, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Issue here is not of history, but of early references to name 'Kamarupa' (Kalika Purana is used too). I am facing this issue (forcefully removing reliable sources) since 2012. The removal of academic viewpoints such way is not acceptable just because one editor believes its unreliable (wp:own). भास्कर् Bhagawati  Speak  14:32, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

The references to these in ancient texts have been shown to be fabrications (See Sircar 1990). That these are fabricated legends are well known and reported in the recent professional academic literature (See Das, Boruah and others in the reference sections). These have to be reported critically, in the context of Sanskritization and Legitimization. You cannot report these legends and myths literally. Because, really, do you think a god regaining a form is historical and real? Chaipau (talk) 15:32, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Its not like that, when we are reporting etymology of an subject, we are suppose to include its early references, as reported by secondary sources. भास्कर् Bhagawati  Speak  19:06, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Then we do not need Etymology because Etymology is speculative. Chaipau (talk) 21:06, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
 * If there are secondary sources, then it is not case. The Kamadeva association is standard now, i have previously given you official website links. I request you to allow other editors (me and others) to edit this article. भास्कर् Bhagawati  Speak  21:42, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Guptajit Pathak's book is terrible. He is peddling stuff that has been refuted.  And his claims have no references or citations.  How are we expected to follow his claims?  If you have issues, take it to WP:RSN.  Chaipau (talk) 04:24, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Pathak's work is considered standard modern work, which is based on earlier works of P.C Choudhury and others, plus his own research. The "Kamarupa name origin in Gopatha Brahmana" is not a minority viewpoint, so if you have objection on this, do you agree to take it to DRN ? भास्कर् Bhagawati  Speak  10:17, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Where did you get the idea that Pathak's work is considered standard modern work? P C Choudury's claims on these have been rejected in professional academic journals.  Chaipau (talk) 12:38, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I am interested to see them. भास्कर् Bhagawati  Speak  12:48, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Search for Gopatha brahmana and kamarupa, and get this link: The passage is profusely referenced, unlike Guptajit Pathak, who relies on old works. Chaipau (talk) 16:03, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * The link is a essay (1994) which cites Mukunda Madhava Sharma (1978). Other and more recent works rejects it and agrees that Gopatha Brahmana is the source, consider including both sides. भास्कर् Bhagawati   Speak  18:12, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Show me where they have rejected MMSharma. Chaipau (talk) 18:47, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * As you provided link from Google books, the casual search there shows support and opposition to the theory, we need to report both, instead of taking side. भास्कर् Bhagawati  Speak  22:37, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
 * That was a good faith reply to you. I looked for a reference that you will be able to read and provided a link.  There are other references as well that quotes M M Sharma in mainstream journals that you may not be able to access right now.  But really, if you do really want to continue to play this game we shall have to head back to WP:ANI or WP:DRN.  Please make an effort and not provide below par references.  You are stalling the development of this article.  Chaipau (talk) 01:16, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry, threat is not useful to make a point when building consensus. As you are edit warring, creating own standards of reliability, it cannot go on like this. Are you willing to accept RSN findings, if i take it there ? भास्कर् Bhagawati  Speak  02:56, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Kingdom word should be tagged
It was a Kingdom. So, kingdom word should be tagged. Otherwise there may be arbitrarily many kamarupa words in the world. PerfectingNEI (talk) 07:55, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
 * It has been doing fine without it for many years. Let it be.  We will cross the bridge when we come to it.  Chaipau (talk) 16:53, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree with . - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:11, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:52, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Kamarupa map.png

Eastern boundary of Kamarupa
The citation/reference is from Dineshchandra Sircar, and from his entry in Wikipedia, "He was the Chief Epigraphist of the Archaeological Survey of India (1949-1962), Carmichael Professor of Ancient Indian History and Culture at the University of Calcutta (1962–1972) and the General President of the Indian History Congress." The claims appeared in an edited collection. So this is WP:RS. Chaipau (talk) 13:41, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

This note is related to these tags:, which I have removed. Chaipau (talk) 13:43, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Ahom weren't successor of Kamarupa
Lots of POV push related to Ahom kingdom. Ahom were able to rule some part of kamarupa after defeating chutiya and dimasa. but Ahom weren't successor of Kamarupa. ReliableAssam (talk) 18:23, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * If you can prove that Ahom were successor of Kamarupa then you can add your claim. It is well known that Ahom kingdom was in primitive state before mid-15th century. Kamata, Chutia and Dimasa were successors of Kamarupa. Ahom rised only after defeat of Chutia and Dimasa. ReliableAssam (talk) 19:24, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The Ahoms are known to have established their kingdom in 1228. This is prior to the establishment of even the Kamata kingdom (1257).  But what is mentioned in the article is that the Ahoms claimed legitimacy from Kamarupa, which is recorded in their extant chronicles—not whether WP thinks they are successors.  The Koch dynasty, on the other hand, claimed legitimacy from the Kamata kingdom, not Kamarupa.  The late medieval successor kingdoms include Kamata, Ahom, Chutiya, Dimasa and the Baro-Bhuyan rulers in Assam, not Ahoms alone.  But none other these late medieval powers claimed legitimacy after Kamarupa like the Ahoms did. Chaipau (talk) 10:26, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
 * There is no evidence of Ahom kingdom before 16th century. Only Ahom buranjis claim it. 2409:4065:D8E:C7F6:215E:31BA:79B3:DD55 (talk) 06:42, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
 * That's what the article says. We seem to have consensus. Richard Keatinge (talk) 11:04, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE
, What is WP:UNDUE ? Where have you seen WP:UNDUE ? How can significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic be WP:UNDUE ? 2409:4065:D91:6E63:48A1:B249:F3FC:FFE8 (talk) 12:47, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Rulers of Kamarupa
Main population of Kamarupa were Bodos. Kingdom was ruled by Bodos .2409:4065:D91:6E63:48A1:B249:F3FC:FFE8 (talk) 14:46, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Prithu
Prithu is a legendary character based on traditions. No one knows for sure when and where he ruled, considering that he existed. The Muslim chronicles and epigraphs simply mention the king of Kamrupa as Rae/ Raja of Kamrupa, not by any particular name. These speculative claims by Sarkar are outdated and based on K.L.Barua's History of Kamrupa. Kanaklal Barua has fabricated his own version of history by manipulating facts as he pleases. Have a look at the content first.21:23, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

 * Please do not remove cited texts, or you will be reported. The citations are from Jadunath Sarkar, not from K L Barua; and they are edited by H K Barpujari.  So this is as standard as one could get.  Chaipau (talk) 03:48, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I have added a source that sets in rest to the bogus claim of Prithu being a ruler of Kamrupa. Refer to the main article Raja_Prithu or read Page 4-6, New Light on History of Assam. Speculative claims based on outdated and erroneous sources should not be added in Wikipedia.Ananya Taye (talk) 06:22, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
 * This source is Bhattasali, 1946. It is rather old, and the views are outdated. Recent scholarship (such as Boruah (2011) and Sarkar (1992)) don't even acknowledge Bhattasali. Chaipau (talk) 20:09, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Eastern border of Kamarupa
The eastern border of Kamarupa still doesnot find any inscriptional evidence. Shin writes i quote "Scholars identify Dikkaravāsinī with goddess Tāmreśvarī and locate her abode in Sadiya. It is deemed the eastern limit of Kāmarūpa. And this supposition is supported by the reference of the sixteenth century Yoginītantra describing the eastern limit of Kāmarūpa as the abode of Dikkaravāsinī. Basedon these textual references, the so-called traditional boundary of Kāmarūpais postulated. However, no inscriptional and material."Homogenie (talk) 17:15, 26 June 2021 (UTC) evidence confirms this conjecture.

Borders of Kamarupa
Most of the Boundary of Kamarupa is drawn by the literal intrepretation of Kalika Purnika and Yogini Tantra, The source used for drawing the Map of Kamarupa like Dutta(2008) echo the same thing like K.L Barua. Most of these have been disproven by Shin(2018). if you what to selectively put what you like in Shin (2018) and discard the what you dont like then thats WP:POV. The map of Kamarupa shouldnt even be here if we consider Shin(2018). Dutta (2008) starts with the same debunked Ramayana and Mahabharata stories Quote : again this Quote: Quote:

This is what Shin(2018) writes about the BORDERS : Quote

About Bhutan and Koch Behar Shin(2018):

About combining Kamarupa and Pragjyotishpura and create a fictional map Shin(2018) Quote:

BORDERS Shin(2018):

Two defination of Kamarupa in Kalika purana Shin(2018):

Also Dutta(2008) Chapter IV VARIOUS PLACES OF IMPORTANCE puts Dikkaravasini as (Dikrong River) Quote:

Most of these borders are wild guess which are being repeatedly produced in academic circles without any improvement, most of these are debunked by Shin (2018). THERE IS NO FIXED BORDER OF KAMARUPA. THE MAP SHOULDNT EXISTHomogenie (talk) 07:23, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Nowhere does Shin argue that the eastern boundary as given by all are wrong. In fact she finds support in other areas.  Scholars identifY Dikkaravasini with goddess Tamresvari and locate her abode in Sadiya. It is deemed the eastern limit of Kamarupa. And this supposition is supported by the reference of the sixteenth century Yoginitantra describing the eastern limit of Kamarupa as the abode of Dikkaravasini. Based on these textual references, the so-called traditional boundary of Kamarupa is postulated.  Shin interprets the mention of Lalitakanta to denote the eastern boundary of Indo-Aryan settlements beyond which was the settlement of Kiratas. Yet, Shin avers that both the regions (Karatoya to Lalitakanta and Lalitakanta to Dikkaravasini) were part of Kamrupa: The contrast between the area from Lalitakanta to Dikkaravasini and that from the Karatoya to Lalitakanta is clear. The former was perceived as the place in which the Kiratas dwelt, while the latter denoted the place where brahmanas, sages and people of the varna order lived in. In other words, the former represented the realm of the tribal non-sedentary society, covering a vast area in the middle and upper Brahmaputra Valley, and the latter that of the Brahmanical sedentary society, occupying a small part of the region, probably limited to the present city of Guwahati and its environs. Both the areas were deemed Kamarupa. This setting down of a boundary could be right, as Naranarayan did many centuries later when he used the Gohain kamal Ali to demarcate the brahmanical (south) and the non-Brahminical parts (north) of his kingdom. But this could be right only in the initial stages of Kamarupa, and not later,  since a later king Kamarupa king of the 10th century had established a brahmin colony in Habung/Ha-Vranga.  Chaipau (talk) 21:55, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Sorry but Shin clearly doubts the Borders

also Shin (2020) about borders

Also Shin in ''Descending from Demons, Ascending to Kshatriyas: Genealogical Claims and Political Process in Pre-modern Northeast India, The Chutiyas and the Dimasas'' clearly mentions

Also in the same journal, she writes

So here Shin doesnot talks about Hindu influence in Upper Assam before the 14th century, and also clearly disregard Habung Settlement. Also Gohain Kamal Ali road page clearly states about the Brahminised side and Non-Brahminised side, it shares the informantion in the page, there is no point in disregarding what Shin writes about the two different region of Kamarupa until and unless there is some other cause.

Also Koch dyansty has seperate sections for Koch dynasty- Koch dynasty and Koch dynasty. Also there is seperate page for Cooch Behar State and Koch Hajo. It is separated because it represented two different things which have DIFFERENCES. When there are DIFFERENCES, it deserves to be shown. Calling karatoya river to Dikkarsavini as the singular bourdary would be flawed as it tries to potray the region as a singular culture which is not true, hence it needs to be shown the two different region mentioned in Kalikapurana of which Shin writes.

Also Kalikapurana is not some historical accurate book to draw maps, Kalikapurana contains legends of Narakasura and Bhagadutta, which were deemed true when you literally interpret the Kalikapurana. Most of these have been turned false by modern scholars, so are the borders and area of influence of Kamarupa has been challenged. you added Shin reference here Kamarupa in 2018 and you completely discarded Shin reference here Kamarupa, it seems you are avoiding it. Popular scholars views doesnot fall under WP:UNDUE.

And also it is written "In whole the western boundary..."

We should not WP:CHERRYPICKING from Shin(2018) Homogenie (talk) 00:55, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
 * It is not cherry picking. What I have quoted above are the final concluding statements that Shin has made regarding her interpretations.  You cannot pick out individual statements she made while framing her arguments in the initial part of her writing, ignore her conclusive statements and come to your own conclusions. She concludes explicitly: Both the areas were deemed Kamarupa..  Your are inserting your WP:POV here.  This is WP:OR, not just WP:DUE. The major contribution of Shin in that article was finding non-Indo-Aryan domains within Kamarupa, not outside Kamarupa.  Chaipau (talk) 10:43, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Well by saying a singular border from Karatoya to Dikkaravsini, you are trying to potray a singular culture of Kamarupa, which is not true, also Shin clearly writes it has no innscriptional records of eastern bourdary. Also you are very carefully trying to manipulate the border by picking certain parts of the journal and discarding the other parts. This is not how wikiepdia should run. Inserting all the facts written in the journal should not be a problem until and unless it a political issue. You didnt insert Shin citation for 2 years, it certainly says you dont want to put what is written in the journal in wikipedia. My response prior gives answer to all of these and these is not Original research as i have not claimed this, this is Shin Homogenie (talk) 11:36, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Shin frames are questions with the quotes you are using, but you are ignoring her conclusions and inserting your own conclusions (WP:OR). In the boundary section, we are discussing not cultural regions, but the political entity that was Kamarupa. No author today claims that Kamarupa was a single cultural region. Nearly all authors, historians as well as linguists, believe that Kamarupa consisted of small "urban" settlements with prevalence of Indo-Aryan culture surrounded by non-Indo-Aryan culture.
 * This is Shin's concluding paragraph in its full glory:
 * The contrast between the area from Lalitakanta to Dikkaravasini and that from the Karatoya to Lalitakanta is clear. The former was perceived as the place in which the Kiratas dwelt, while the latter denoted the place where brahmanas, sages and people of the varna order lived in. In other words, the former represented the realm of the tribal non-sedentary society, covering a vast area in the middle and upper Brahmaputra Valley, and the latter that of the Brahmanical sedentary society, occupying a small part of the region, probably limited to the present city of Guwahati and its environs. Both the areas were deemed Kamarupa. Such different spatial views may reflect the partial expansion of sedentary agriculture and brahmana settlements and the slow diffusion of Brahmanical influence. It was probably due to 'low density of population in isolated rural settlements and a strong tribal substratum in the region'. It is worth noting that pitha (the abode of a goddess) signified the extent of Kamarupa, that is Lalitakanta pitha and Dikkaravasini pitha. The sacred territoriality of goddess constituted the spatial cognition of the region and it became a significant symbol of the regional identity in the course of time.
 * The conclusions are very clear.
 * Kamarupa consisted of two areas in the Brahmaputra valley: Karatoya to Lalitakanta (Area 1) and Lalitakanta to Dikkaravasini (Area 2).
 * Area 1 - the domain of Brahmanical sedentary society
 * Area 2 - the domain of tribal non-sedentary society
 * Bother these areas are in Kamarupa ("Both the areas were deemed Kamarupa")
 * Shin therefore concludes not by redefining the eastern boundary, as you are claiming, but by defining two domains—one brahmanical and the other tribal—within Kamarupa. She explains these two areas as due to the slow diffusion of Brahmanical influence/settlements into a strong tribal substratum.  When she talks about a tribal substratum, she is obviously referring to a slow conversion of tribal non-sedentary society (jhum agriculture) into brahmanical sedentary society (wet rice cultivation), not the physical expansion of brahman settlements.
 * Chaipau (talk) 11:55, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Well i am not ignoring her conclusion, i clearly wrote " On the whole the western boundary is ...". Also it is necessary to give the two region as it gives the impression that Kamarupa is one culture which is not correct, hence i added the two region and then i added " On the whole ..." Also you said Shin writes that there are two parts of Kamarupa one tribal and the other non-tribal in the ending (conclusion). So thats what she exactly wrote in the conclusion and then wrote the two part were deemed KAMARUPA in the KALIKA PURANA. I dont see a reason why we should pick up just a small part of her (Shin) conclusion as writing the full conclusion gives the reader a better understanding of the content Homogenie (talk) 22:36, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The section is about the boundary of the Kamarupa kingdom, primarily the political boundary. The issue of cultural regions within the kingdom is out of scope in the section.
 * As far as internal cultural divisions are concerned, Shin's versions of a two-way division, one region in the east and the other in the west, each defined as the domain of a goddess, is a novel (and speculative) division, and it is one among other models. The traditional divisions are not two-way but four-way (see Kamarupa Pithas) which are not accepted as true divisions by scholars but fabricated divisions (see Sircar).  The more prevalent model, the one accepted by historians and linguists (see Lahiri, Guha, DeLancey etc.), describe various Indo-Aryan centers of influence in a sea of non-Indo-Aryan culture.  One of the capitals itself of the Kamarupa kings, Haddapeshwar (modern-day Tezpur), is in Shin's tribal domain, leave alone the Ha-Vranga brahman settlement further to the east.
 * Therefore,
 * Shin's internal division is out of scope in the section on boundaries.
 * Shin's division scheme is not the prevalent model of the Indo-Aryan/non-Indo-Aryan divide and interactions. Internal composition deserves a different section dedicated to it.  But even in such a section Shin's divisions is WP:UNDUE because it is not the model accepted by all scholars.  It is a new and speculative division that arises from the mention of Lalitakanta in the Kalika Purana.
 * Chaipau (talk) 11:29, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Resolution of this discussion
This issue has gone through a DR process, and concluded with a WP:3O. The resolution can be found here: Talk:Mlechchha dynasty Chaipau (talk) 12:43, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Alauddin Hussein
, I know you are busy and don't want to waste precious time. But before we go to 3O, we need to put in our arguments here. Could you please explain here, how Alauddin Husain Shah's invasion of the medieval Kamata kingdom in 1498 is relevant enough to belong in the lead section of this article that describes a kingdom that ceased to exist in the middle of the 12th century? What you have argued so far is that since the lead section mentions the Ahoms it should also mention Alauddin Hussein Shah. Why should not Alauddin Hussein Shah's invasion belong to the section that lists all the other Muslim invasions after the demise of the Kamarupa kingdom? What makes Alauddin Hussein Shah's invasion any different from that of Bakhtiyar Khalji's, or Ghiyasuddin Iwaj Shah or even the Mughals? The Mughals ruled Kamrup (a very small part of Kamarupa) for close to 60 years, compared to Alauddin, who ruled it for about just 15 years? Why is this special? WP:EVERYTHING. Chaipau (talk) 22:48, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Most of your questions are out of context. My point isn't about any invasion. My point is about persistence of notion of kamarupa and Alauddin's coins clearly prove the persistence of notion of kamarupa. I'm not sure if other muslim rulers issued such coins, also i am unable to find such proof for Ahom. There is separate article Ahom Kingdom for writing about their assumption and aspiration which you highlighted in Kamarupa.
 * That was my one line edit. I don't think we need long discussion and i don't think my edit was disruptive but i got warning from you in my talk page.
 * KPAhmed (talk) 02:32, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
 * If it is just a one line edit, why are you so adamant on retaining it?
 * The coins of Alauddin Husain Shah referred to "Kamru and Kamata", which in the 15th century is Kamata kingdom and not the Kamarupa kingdom that ceased to exist in the 12th century. A king from Kamarupanagara moved his capital to Kamatapur and called himself the king of Kamata: Thenceforth, the Kamarupa king assumed the title Kamataswara or Kameswara and his kingdom came to be known as Kamata or Kamrup-Kamata (Baruah 1983, p176). According to Sarkar 1992: In the 15th century 'Kamrup' comprised not only the areas now included in Koch Bihar, Darrang and Kamrup districts but also as Stapleton says, of Northern Mymensing, north and west of the Brahmaputra. And so, this is the kingdom that Husain Shah referred to—the 15th century Kamrup-Kamata which he called Kamru and Kamata.  His coins did not refer to Kamarupa.
 * Alauddin's claim is outside the context of Kamarupa and does not belong here at all, under the WP:LEAD and WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Just because Alauddin's coin mentions Kamrup does not mean that line belongs here. Your argument on "notion" and "persistence" are WP:OR since they are not explicitly stated nor cited.  The Ahom claim is explicitly cited (Guha).
 * Chaipau (talk) 10:17, 22 September 2021 (UTC) (edited) 11:19, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Original word was in persian. Kamru was used for kamarupa word (See DC sarkar), for example Jia-mo-lu-po was by the famous Huen Chang. I thank you for your lesson on WP:OR but I've not combined statements to conclude anything in the article. My edit is very much in agreement with notion of kamarupa by J N Sarkar. But why do you want to remove it and keep only about Ahom's assumption and aspiration ? Does this even belong to Kamarupa WP:LEAD ? I'm ready to accept any comment from third editor or administrator. I mayn't be able to reply any time soon. Thanks KPAhmed (talk) 15:14, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
 * As I said, you need a reference that clearly says those coins referred to Kamarupa and not Kamrup-Kamata. It is clear from J N Sarkar's writing that he makes a distinction between Kamarupa and Kamrup-Kamata.  "[Kamarupa] was reorganised as a new state. 'Kamata' by name with Kamatapur as capital. The exact time when the change was made is uncertain.  It is possible it had been made by Sandhya as a safeguard against mounting dangers from the east and the west.  Its control on the eastern regions beyond the Manah was lax.  Beyond the Barnadi the Ahoms have been consolidating since 1228." (Sarkar 1992, pp40/41)
 * If you cannot provide a reliable reference that specifically associates the Kamrup in Alauddin Shah's coin to Kamarupa we will have to remove that line. Chaipau (talk) 15:51, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

I have removed the reference to Alauddin Husain Shah from the lede and put it in the post Kamarupa period. I don't see why this should be important at all, given that this invasion occurred some 300/400 years after the end Kamarupa. Also, at the time Kamarupa ended, Islam had't reached Bengal even, let alone Kamarupa. Chaipau (talk) 13:36, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Nagajari-Khanikargaon rock inscription
I wonder why you are trying to use creative readings of academic writings to push your POV. As I have shown here, you have tried to push a speculative internal boundary of Kamarupa to claim that it was the eastern boundary of the kingdom..

And now you want to remove Nagajari-Khanikargaon rock inscription on yet another speculative claim.,,  Please note the following.

 * The Varmans (4th-7th century) were ruling in Kamarupa when the Nagajari-Khanikargaon rock inscription is tentatively dated (5th century).
 * The NKGRI does not carry a date, it is dated based on the script in use.
 * It is speculated that it is earlier than the Umachal rock inscription based on the use of a letter and the absence of Prakritism.
 * There is no explicit connection between the NKGRI and the Doiyang Dhansiri Valley (DDV).
 * It is not established that DDV was a kingdom.

All these have been clearly stated in Shin. You claim is thus based on a misconception (that NKGI is pre-Varman) and three additional speculations.

So please revert your changes.

Chaipau (talk) 20:46, 5 January 2022 (UTC) (edited) 20:58, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Shin (2018) page 28-29: "One cannot completely rule out the possibility of several simultaneous political powers in different sub-regional levels of north-eastern India around or even before the fourth century. For instance, the archaeological discovery in the Doiyang-Dhansiri Valley reveals that early state formation in the region may have begun before the second century. Some stone inscriptions assigned to the fourth and fifth centuries refer to the four names of kings who have possibly ruled over this area. The date of the Nagajari-Khanikargaon fragmentary stone inscription is considered to be earlier than that of the Umachal inscription of Varmans. It is, nevertheless, too early to make any definite conclusion as the archaeological and inscriptional evidences are still limited to date. Furthermore, the absence of large-scale archaeological excavations in the region prevents us from tracing a detailed picture of society in the earlier period."
 * Please enlighten as to where Shin (2018) has wrote about Nagajari-Khanikargaon rock inscription belonging to Varman dynasty

Where has she claimed that Khanikargaon inscription belongs to Varman dynasty, the inscription is basically said to be pre-Varman period and nothing more is known about it, i dont see why a speculative claim which doesnot have much evidence as to which dynasty it belongs to should be inserted into the Varman section as a fact! Homogenie (talk) 04:57, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

 * It is clear that she begins with the default position that NKGI belongs to Kamarupa (this is the conventional understanding), examines the possibility that there there was another state to which NKGI probably belonged and then concludes that we do not have sufficient evidence to make that conclusion. Implicitly this brings her to the default position—NKGI belongs to Kamarupa.
 * But let us look at her evidence step-by-step.
 * One cannot completely rule out the possibility of several simultaneous political powers in different sub-regional levels of north-eastern India around or even before the fourth century. For instance, the archaeological discovery in the Doiyang-Dhansiri Valley reveals that early state formation in the region may have begun before the second century. I am not certain why Shin says: One cannot completely rule out the possibility. We know for certain that in the 4th-century there were at least two early states—Kamarupa and Davaka. Also note that this is the situation in the 4th century and earlier, and places Doiyang-Dhansiri as early as the 2nd century.
 * Some stone inscriptions assigned to the fourth and fifth centuries refer to the four names of kings who have possibly ruled over this area. The date of the Nagajari-Khanikargaon fragmentary stone inscription is considered to be earlier than that of the Umachal inscription of the Varmans. Here she is speculating whether NKGI could have belonged to this state that was formed around the four kings. What is implicit here is the default position given here, that regions east to Davaka were absorbed into Kamarupa by Mahendravarman (470–494), who, by the way, issued the Umachal inscription. So Shin is effectively speculating here whether NKGI could have been issued by someone else before Mahendravarman occupied Doyang-Dhansiri.
 * It is, nevertheless, too early to make any definite conclusion as the archaeological and inscriptional evidences are still limited to date. Furthermore, the absence of large-scale archaeological excavations in the region prevents us from tracing a detailed picture of society in the earlier period. Here Shin concludes that the evidence isn't there to support that speculation. Which effectively brings us back to the default position—that NKGI was issued by Kamarupa, just as all other land grants in the region.
 * In other words, Shin concludes that there is no evidence yet to support what you are claiming. According to her, we don't know either way.

 * So how is this different from the the NPOV text that you have deleted here:
 * "The Nagajari-Khanikargaon rock inscription of 5th century found in Sarupathar in Golaghat district of Assam adduces the fact that the Sanskritisation spread to the east very quickly, though it is not clear whether this belonged to a different state formation."
 * The text above accurately represents what Shin has said above and should be restored.
 * Chaipau (talk) 10:32, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

 * Complete WP:OR, Shin doesnot even claim that Khanikargoan inscription belongs to Varman dynasty, please do show the exact sentence where it written in the journal!! Khanikargoan is pre-varman as pointed out in the journal, also it has too less evidence to really point out to which dynasty it actually belonged to, so please dont try to pass off a claim as a fact Homogenie (talk) 11:50, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The text you have removed does not claim that NKGRI is Kamarupa. What is your problem with that text?
 * NKGRI is not pre-Varman, but possibly pre-Umachal. Shin writes earlier than that of the Umachal inscription, and this is from Sharma.  Chaipau (talk) 12:05, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Shin(2018) "The date of the Nagajari-Khanikargaon fragmentary stone inscription is considered to be earlier than that of the Umachal inscription of the Varmans."
 * Read the line, earlier than umachal inscription of the Varmans
 * Also "It is, nevertheless, too early to make any definite conclusion as the archaeological and inscriptional evidences are still limited to date. Furthermore, the absence of large-scale archaeological excavations in the region prevents us from tracing a detailed picture of society in the earlier period."
 * i dont find the pre-Umachal sentence and this The text you have removed does not claim that NKGRI is Kamarupa. What is your problem with that text? so you agree that NKGRI is not Kamarupa?? Homogenie (talk) 12:29, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * "Nagajari-Khanikargaon fragmentary stone inscription is considered to be earlier than that of the Umachal inscription of the Varmans." means pre-Umachal, where Umachal inscriptions belonged to the Varmans. For NKGRI to be pre-Varman, it has to be pre-4th century.  Where does Shin claim it is pre-4th century?
 * No. Shin and everyone else is uncertain whether NKGRI belongs to Kamarupa or some others.  But the some other is not established yet.  Irrespective of who it belongs to, NKGRI demonstrates that Indo-Aryan culture had reached Golaghat by the 5th century.  If you consider the Doyang-Dhansiri to be Indo-Aryan as well, then Indo-Aryan culture had reached that region by the 2nd century.
 * Chaipau (talk) 13:48, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

 * regardless of indo aryan culture reaching golaghat from west or east, still it doesnot have evidence that it belongs to varman dynasty, so i dont see why it should inserted into varman section Homogenie (talk) 15:00, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Where is the statement that NKGRI is not Varman? At this point of time, none of the scholars can say who this belonged to. Chaipau (talk) 15:48, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Chaipau's sentence seems accurate and NPOV, though I would amend it slightly to read "The fragmentary Nagajari-Khanikargaon rock inscription, probably a land grant and written in Sanskrit, is dated to approximately the 5th century. It was found in Sarupathar in Golaghat district of Assam. It supports the idea that Sanskritisation spread to the east very quickly, though it is not clear what state formation issued the grant." I hope this helps. Richard Keatinge (talk) 17:05, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * please show the statement where it states thart the inscription belongs to the Varman, then you can happily add it. Also Do read your own line At this point of time, none of the scholars can say who this belonged to. So the scholars agree that the agree that they are unsure to which dynasty it belongs to?? so why are you inserting this in varman dynasty Homogenie (talk) 16:27, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * thank you! Your phrasing is a vast improvement and I agree to it.  Chaipau (talk) 17:27, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * : The point is not whether sankritisation reached east in the 5th century but to which dynasty it belongs. Scholars claim that the inscription is pre-Varman and doesnot have much evidence to put it under the section of any ruling dynasty. Chaipau likes to push his  POV to claim that the inscription belongs to Varman dynasty. The journal   Region Formed and Imagined: Reconsidering temporal, spatial and social context of Kamarupa Shin(2018) p.28-29 claims the opposite. Do look into it Homogenie (talk) 17:39, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The issue here is not what my POV is but the text and whether it is supported by WP:RS and WP:DUE.
 * The text does not claim the inscription is Kamarupa—it clearly says "it is not clear what state formation issued the grant".
 * The sentence "The date of the Nagajari-Khanikargaon fragmentary stone inscription is considered to be earlier than that of the Umachal inscription of Varmans" cannot be read as "pre-Varman". The sentence means that the inscription is possibly older than the Umachal inscription.  The Varman's began their reign in the 4th century but their earliest inscription, Umachal, is from the 5th. Nagajari is also from the 5th. If the sentence is made to mean "pre-Varman" as Homogenie is claiming, then it would mean the 5th century came before the 4th!
 * Chaipau (talk) 18:54, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The text says it is unsure of which dynasty the inscription belongs to, if you want to show Sankritisation spreaded till the east in the 5th centurt, then create a seperate article Sankritisation in Assam and put it there. You cannot put this into varman dynasty as this record is speculative and unassigned to any of the previous ruling dynasties.Homogenie (talk) 19:14, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Nagajari is about land grants, a specific type of Sanskritisation. The agency that does this are kings.  There are other types of Sanskritisation which do not involve land grants. So Nagajari is relevant in the context of Kamarupa.  Especially, given that all other land grants that are associated from the region are from Kamarupa. You do realise, I hope, that Shin herself is writing about Kamarupa when she mentioned Nagajari. The title of her paper is Region Formed and Imagined: Reconsidering temporal, spatial and social context of Kamarupa Chaipau (talk) 19:22, 6 January 2022 (UTC) (edited) 19:52, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Homogenie, the guessed date of the Nagajari-Khanikargaon inscription coincides with the dates, also approximate, of the Varman dynasty. This alone is enough to allow us to insert the inscription in the Varman section. The suggested text disclaims any positive identification of the ruler / kingdom who issued the grant. Richard Keatinge (talk) 00:10, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

 * is the inscription considered part of the Varman dynasty, please do show the sentence, the author clearly state it is uncertain. How can you put that as a fact in the Varman section?? Do realise the inscription  does not have the name of any ruler. The journal reads One cannot completely rule out the possibility of several simultaneous political powers in different sub-regional levels of north-eastern India around or even before the fourth century. For instance, the archaeological discovery in the Doiyang-Dhansiri Valley reveals that early state formation in the region may have begun before the second century. Some stone inscriptions assigned to the fourth and fifth centuries refer to the four names of kings who have possibly ruled over this area. The date of the Nagajari-Khanikargaon fragmentary stone inscription is considered to be earlier than that of the Umachal inscription of Varmans. It is, nevertheless, too early to make any definite conclusion as the archaeological and inscriptional evidences are still limited to date.} It doesnot tell it to be of varman but is unassigned, the inscription  doesnot even have the name of the ruler, how can you put a on speculative claim, also do read the journal it even questions whether the three dynasty of kamarupa had any connection at all between them Homogenie (talk) 01:41, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Each and every concern of yours has been addressed above with WP:GOODFAITH. You are now repeating. Please note that WP:IDNHT is WP:DE. Chaipau (talk) 07:19, 7 January 2022 (UTC) (edited) 07:34, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

 * Why? That is not what is claimed. Chaipau (talk) 10:45, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

 * You cannot insert a unassigned inscription into Varman dynasty, please just provide the citation which says its belongs to Varman dynasty, The inscription is unassigned  to any ruler. It is simple as that, it is unassigned. If you do have proper source than go ahead and add it. Homogenie (talk) 14:02, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Could you please point me to the Wikipedia policy that this violates? Shin has included a mention of the inscription in her paper on Kamarupa. If not, please take it to the next level of WP:DR. Chaipau (talk) 14:37, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

I have inserted the current recommended text. Chaipau (talk) 14:59, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * This was reverted. At this edit I have inserted a revised version of the paragraph, this time under "Antecedents" rather than the section on the Varman dynasty. I do hope that this settles this issue. Richard Keatinge (talk) 22:33, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * thanks! This is awesome! Chaipau (talk) 23:06, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Lauhitya
Shin (2017) describes this:
 * Where is this Lauhitya river?? is this in the mythical Pragjyotisha of Epics or Kamarupa of Assam? is Lauhitya the Brahmaputra river?

1.It should be remembered in this connection that the north-eastern region was outside the Maurya Empire. Kautilya's Arthashastra, the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, the Geography of Ptolemy and other early literary works only spealc of economic pursuits of the tribal belt of the north-eastern region:Kautilya refers to the commodities originating from various places around the Lauhitya, though the region was still divided into tribal pockets and perhaps no common name till then.The author of the Periplus and Ptolemy knew the Kiratas and other tribes, but had nothing to say about their kingdoms. p.28

Here, Lauhitya is the river related to Prajyotisha. This is confirmed by the second statement.

2.Considering the fact that the name Kamarupa is no where mentioned in an early literature including the Vedic corpus, the early Buddhist/Jain works and the Arthasastra, it is not surprising that the Epic is silent on Kamarupa. Its absence is deemed' remarkable' because some scholars take the ancient presence of Kamarupa for granted.p.34-35

3.In the following verses, the king of Pragjyotisha is mentioned as the lord of Kamarupa twice (isah kamarupanam and kamarupesvara).It is worth noting that Pragjyotisha was recognised as a kingdom beyond the Lauhitya, the old name of the Brahmaputra, but nonetheless, it was categorised as one of the countries in the north, not the east. This fact makes us doubt whether the description of Pragjyotisha was based on actual geographical knowledge.p.37

4.Considering the historical context of the seventh century Kamarupa, especially during the reign of Bhaskara varman when the Varmans was ascending to one of the important powers in north India, it appears that they projected Kamarupa on a larger geopolitical map by combining it with pragjyotisha the Epic kingdom. In other words, pragjyotisha was retrieved from the ancient Epic past by the aspirant local kingship to over come its peripherality. An elusive mythical space was brought into the actual geography of Kamarupa.p.38

Arthashastra talks about Lauhitya of Pragjyotisha in 3rd century BCE not Kamarupa This clear is clear from the first two statement, whereas Pragjyotisha is attached to Kamarupa only in the 7th century CE. and it is in this copper plates where Vaskar Barman is given divine origin from pragjyotisha and it is  this time (7th century) when Lautiya the mythical river of pragjyotisha is attached to Kamarupa.

So, Arthasastra was not mentioning Kamarupa but Pragjyotisha and the same reason why Kamarupa finds no mention in Buddhist,Jain and Arthasashtra text.

That sentence that Kamarupa is mentioned in Arthasastra along with the river Lauhitya must be removed! Homogenie (talk) 19:11, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Please look at WP:NOTFORUM. Also, WP:OR.  Sircar has discussed this thoroughly.  Shin has accepted it and points out that these early references are with regard to trade, not states.  Nearly every one mentions this in the context of Kamarupa.  It should remain and should reflect the major critical consensus in the historical literature. Chaipau (talk) 20:46, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

 * It is not even WP:OR, What is mention in Arthashastra (3rd BCE) is Pragjyotisha not Kamarupa, if the kingdom of Pragjyotisha  is in the west will the river attached to it "Lauhitya" stay in the east!! Shin discusses it completely  in the journal, do you still think it should stay?? Kamarupa came to be linked with Pragjyotisha along with Lauhitya in the 7th century!!Homogenie (talk) 02:06, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Please cite references to back up your argument.  For one, Arthashastra is not dated to 3rd BCE, though it is attributed to Kautilya.  Chaipau (talk) 14:49, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Arthashastra publication date is 3rd century BCE, also we need to provide summary after reading the entire journal, what is the summary?? Arthasashatra refers to Pragjyotisha with Lautiya in 3rd century BCE not Kamarupa, it was attached to Kamarupa in 7th century CE under Bhaskarvarman!!Homogenie (talk) 12:29, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The Arthashastra was not published in the 3rd century—it is dated to much later. And what is the journal here? There are three authors associated with this text—Sircar, who dates the text, Guha who identifies when the association was made, and Shin who interprets these observations. The point Shin makes is that this early text is that the Sanskritized world was aware of the region but did not record the presence of a kingdom. Chaipau (talk) 13:28, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The sankritised world was aware of Pragjyotisha not Kamrupa, Prajyotisha was to the north west of the subcontinent not east, Pragjyotisha was attached to Kamarupa in 7th century CE.Homogenie (talk) 14:55, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * the evidence from Sircar, Guha and Shin is clear that they knew of the Brahmaputra valley before it came to be called Kamarupa. And they have not used the name Pragjyotisha, but Lauhitya for that region.  Others have used other names—Kirrhadia for instance.  Chaipau (talk) 16:36, 25 February 2022

 * Lauhitya is related to Pragjyotisha not Kamarupa besides these legendary places has been reproduced all over the subcontinent stretching from northwest India to Southeast Asia. Do you really believe that Bhagadatta, an epic god jumped over Lauhitya i.e Brahmaputra is real??!! and Kirrhadia is irrelevant here as we are discussing about places in Arthashastra not  Periplus of the Erythraean Sea or Geographia.Homogenie (talk) 17:08, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * please provide a source that claims Lauhitya is associated with Pragjyotisha. The references cited (Sircar, Guha and Shin) have discussed the Lauhitya in the context of Kamarupa and the Brahmaputra valley.  could you please help us out here? Chaipau (talk) 11:21, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Here is the full quote from Shin (2018): "Kautilya's Arthashastra, the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, the Geography of Ptolemy and other early literary works only speak of economic pursuits of the tribal belt of the north-eastern region: Kautilya refers to the commodities originating from various places around the Lauhitya, though the region was still divided into tribal pockets and perhaps no common name till then. The author of the Periplus and Ptolemy knew the Kiriitas and other tribes, but had nothing to say about their kingdoms."

Shin clearly says Lauhitya in Kautilya's Arthashastra refers to Northeast India. Very specifically. There is not need to interpret this further. stop removing the mention of Arthashastra as you have done here:, , ,. Chaipau (talk) 13:22, 26 February 2022 (UTC) (edited) 15:06, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

 * Lauhitya is not Brahmaputra?? It is worth noting that Pragjyotisha was recognised as a kingdom beyond the Lauhitya, the old name of the Brahmaputra, but nonetheless, it (Pragjyotisha) was categorised as one of the countries in the north, not the east. This fact makes us doubt whether the description of Pragjyotisha was based on actual geographical knowledge Shin 2017 p.37
 * It is clear that Lauhitya was the river of Pragjyotisha in the North; by the 7th century AD, the Brahmins who legitimised the kings of Kamarupa attached the mythical kingdom of Pragjyotisha along with river Lauhitya to the historical kingdom of Kamarupa Homogenie (talk) 15:47, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
 * read the passage about Kautilya's Lauhitya carefully. Shin says Kautilya refers to the commodities originating from various places around the Lauhitya, though the region was still divided into tribal pockets and perhaps no common name till then. . The author ofthe Periplus and Ptolemy knew the Kiratas and other tribes, but had nothing to say about their kingdoms.  (p28)  In other words, since the places around Lauhitya did not have names, according to Shin, Kautilya is using the name Lauhitya (probably the name of the river) to refer to the place.  Shin (2017) calls Lauhitya the older name, because obviously, the name Lauhitya appears before the name Brahmaputra appears in any form.  The point Shin is making here is that in Kautilya's time, there was no political entity.  Even Periplus and others did not name the land, but calls it after the name of the tribes (Kirata).  Periplus in fact describes an eye-witness account of how the "trade" actually happened. Please try to listen to what the author is saying instead of looking for quotes that supports your POV.  Chaipau (talk) 16:52, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
 * It is worth noting that Pragjyotisha was recognised as a kingdom beyond the Lauhitya, the old name of the Brahmaputra, but nonetheless, it was categorised as one of the countries in the north, not the east.
 * Lauhitya was associated with Pragjyotisha later on, and Pragjyotisha was to the north not to the east
 * Again Kirata as a term was used for various tribes in northwest, this terms are not location specific! Homogenie (talk) 17:56, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I cannot help that you are confused. The text in the article are adequately cited and are very clear with how the names came about.  In you have problems with the authors, you will have to publish your own article (but I am not sure whether you can then cite it here). Chaipau (talk) 18:18, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Lauhitya was the river in the Pragjyotisha, which was a country to the north, it is very clear from the text. Brahmaputra was not Lauhitya. The same reason Kamarupa was not found in Arthasastra, what was found to in Arthasastra was Pragjyotisha along with river Lauhitya which the Assam historian attached the Brahmaputra with, when they found the inscription of Pragjyotisa in Kamarupa inscription, it is clear that the legendary place of Pragjyotisha along with the river Lauhitya was reproduced in Assam or Syhlet in 7th A.D Homogenie (talk) 19:09, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry.
 * Lauhitya is the name found in Kautilya's Arthashastra (early common era) which was later identified as Brahmaputra valley by later commentator called Bhattaswamin (not from Assam) This is accepted by Sircar and Shin are not from Assam, and Guha who is definitely not a "nationalist" historian - he was just the opposite.
 * Kamarupa is the name from the 4th century (Sircar)
 * Pragjyotisha became associated with Kamarupa in the 7th century because of Bhaskarvarman (Shin)
 * All the above three points are cited/referenced in the text.
 * Chaipau (talk) 19:28, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Lautitya was found in Arthashastra which was later noted to be the river in the kingdom of Pragjyotisha, this was the kingdom the to the north not east.
 * When in 7th century, the kings of Kamarupa were legitimised, the mythical kingdom was attached to it,
 * When the historian of Assam went through the Vedic literature they didnot find the term Kamarupa in it Considering the fact that the name Kamarupa is no where mentioned in an early literature including the Vedic corpus, the early Buddhist/Jain works and the Arthasastra, it is not surprising that the Epic is silent on Kamarupa. Its absence is deemed' remarkable' because some scholars take the ancient presence of Kamarupa for granted. Shin 2017 p.34-35
 * Suprisingly they found the name Pragjyotisha along with the river Lauhitya in it (Puranic literature) that was found in these Kamarupa inscriptions reproduced by the brahmins ofcourse! and claimed that as the Pragjyotisha was also know as Kamarupa (well it was just legimitisation) the mythical river Lauhitya in the Vedic text was attached to the Brahmaputra! a complete misinterpretation! Homogenie (talk) 20:29, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your interpretations. They are indeed quite revealing and original. Unfortunately, they cannot be accepted here under WP:OR. Also, please do refer to WP:TALK, especially to this sentence: There is reasonable allowance for speculation, suggestion, and personal knowledge on talk pages, with a view to prompting further investigation, but it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements.. Chaipau (talk) 20:50, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

 * These are not my thought! This from Shin (2017), i have just read it out! Lauhitya is not Brahmaputra Homogenie (talk) 21:02, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Two points:
 * Shin says This fact makes us doubt whether the description of Pragjyotisha was based on actual geographical knowledge. So she is doubting the location of Pragjyotisha, not Lauhitya.
 * Also To my knowledge, the first literary evidence is Kalidasa's Raghuvamsa, which describes Kamarupa as the last country to be subdued by Raghu in his northern expedition. Shin here is discussing Kalidasa's Raghuvamsha, not Kautilya's Arthashastra.
 * I hope this concludes this discussion. Please do take care to read what the author is trying to say instead of projecting your POV onto the text.
 * Chaipau (talk) 12:13, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Just two point:
 * Shin says In the following verses, the king of Pragjyotisha is mentioned as the lord of Kamarupa twice (isah kamarupanam and kamarupesvara) It is worth noting that Pragjyotisha was recognised as a kingdom beyond the river Lauhitya, the old name of the Brahmaputra, but nonetheless, it was categorised as one of the countries in the north, not the east. This fact makes us doubt whether the description of Pragjyotisha was based on actual geographical knowledge. p.37 Shin 2017
 * Shin doubts the location of Pragjyotisa which was located beyond the Lauhitya, Pragjyotisha here is located to the north not east. So the river is to the north as the kingdom attached to it is to the north
 * Also the Nidhanpur copperplate inscription In the inscriptional records of the Varmans, the two words pragjyotisha and Kamarupa, came to be used almost interchangeably The kingdom was also called Kamarupa in the Nidhanpur plates.The king pusyavarman was called the lord of pragjyotisa (pragyotisendrapusyavarmma) in the seal attached to the Dubi plates and the Nalanda clay seals.In the Harsacarita of Bana, Bhaskaravarman was described as the lord of pragjyotisa (pragjyotisendrapusyavarma) as well as Kamarupa (kamarupadhipati). Considering the historical content of the seventh century Kāmarūpa, especially during the reign of Bhāskarvarman when the Varmans was ascending to one of the important powers in north India, it appears that they projected Kāmarūpa on a larger geopolitical map by combining it with Prājyotisa, the Epic kingdom. In other words, Prājyotisa was retrieved from the ancient Epic past by the aspirant local kingship to overcome this peripherality. An elusive mythical space was brought into the actual geography of Kāmarūpa" p.37Shin 2017
 * So from the above sentence it is clear that Pragjyotisha along with river was attached to the kingdom of Kamarupa during the reign of Bhaskarvarman. Pragjyotisha kingdom was to the north not east.
 * I hope this ends the discussion! Homogenie (talk) 16:58, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
 * For your first point, you have inferred the opposite of what Shin has explicitly said. She doubts the position of Pragjotisha of in Kalidasa's Raghuvamsha, not the position of Lauhitya.  Since I have repeated this a number of times, I shall not address this again.  I don't see how the second point is saying anything other than what is already known and cited in the article.  Chaipau (talk) 18:49, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Shin doubts the position of Pragjyotisa along with the river Lauhitya
 * It is worth noting that Pragjyotisha was recognised as a kingdom beyond the river Lauhitya, the old name of the Brahmaputra, but nonetheless, it was categorised as one of the countries in the north, not the east. This fact makes us doubt whether the description of Pragjyotisha was based on actual geographical knowledge. p.37 Shin 2017
 * The kingdom Pragjyotisha along with the river Lautiya was to the north not east!
 * Bhaskarvarman took legitimicy by claiming descent from the mythical kingdom of Pragjyotisha in the 7th century
 * Bhaskaravarman was described as the lord of pragjyotisa (pragjyotisendrapusyavarma) as well as Kamarupa (kamarupadhipati). Considering the historical content of the seventh century Kāmarūpa, especially during the reign of Bhāskarvarman when the Varmans was ascending to one of the important powers in north India, it appears that they projected Kāmarūpa on a larger geopolitical map by combining it with Prājyotisa, the Epic kingdom. In other words, Prājyotisa was retrieved from the ancient Epic past by the aspirant local kingship to overcome this peripherality. An elusive mythical space was brought into the actual geography of Kāmarūpa" p.37Shin 2017
 * So it is pretty clear the mythical kingdom along with the river was attached to Kamarupa in 7th century A.D Homogenie (talk) 00:31, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry, your convoluted logic does not make sense.
 * Shin has explicitly doubted the position of Pragjyotisha in Raghuvamsha. As a result, she discounts it as a reliable source for the geographical position of Pragjyotisha or Lauhitya.
 * You will need a explicit citation to make a claim that the position of Lauhitya was created in 7th century. Shin has made no such claim.
 * Shin has, instead, explicitly placed the Lauhitya in Northeast India: Kautilya's Arthashastra, the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, the Geography of Ptolemy and other early literary works only speak of economic pursuits of the tribal belt of the north-eastern region: Kautilya refers to the commodities originating from various places around the Lauhitya...
 * Chaipau (talk) 13:10, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Kautilya's Arthashastra, the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, the Geography of Ptolemy and other early literary works only speak of economic pursuits of the tribal belt of the north-eastern region: Kautilya refers to the commodities originating from various places around the Lauhitya...
 * This is Shin reading through the text, she doesnot provide a summary here, Here Shin describes
 * It is worth noting that Pragjyotisha was recognised as a kingdom beyond the Lauhitya, the old name of the Brahmaputra, but nonetheless, it was categorised as one of
 * It is worth noting that Pragjyotisha was recognised as a kingdom beyond the Lauhitya, the old name of the Brahmaputra, but nonetheless, it was categorised as one of

the countries in the north, not the east.
 * Pragjyotisha is related to Lauhitya
 * On the other hand, Arjuna is said to fight with the powers in the northern division including Bhagadatta, the king of Pragjyotisha. The northern division called 'Udicya or Uttarapatha comprising the region between the eastern Punjab and the Oxus in the north-west as well as the entire Himalayan region.Shin2017 p.36
 * Well Shin refers to Mahabharata and it has shown that Lauhitya with Pragjyotisha is to the northwest!
 * It is just the historians of Assam have time and again maintained that Pragjyotisha is synonymous with Assam which is false and in the same context claimed that the river Lauhitya in Pragjyotisha was Brahmaputra.
 * So Lauhitya is not Brahmaputra! Homogenie (talk) 03:47, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Each and every point you made in your last post has been refuted multiple times in the discussion above. All it does is lay bare your point of view. I am pinging and  here for visibility. I wonder if this discussion is worth keeping here. Chaipau (talk) 11:53, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

 * Yes it is, it is well known now that Lauhitya is not Brahmaputra, Lauhitya was the river near Pragjyotisha, In puranic text, Pragjyotisha was located to the northwest in present-day pakistan. It came to be related with Kamarupa in 7th century A.D in Syhlet not in Brahmaputra Valley Homogenie (talk) 11:59, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Under attack again
This page is under attack with cherry-picked sentences from Shin yet again. We have a history of this happening to this and some other pages in Wikipedia. Pinging. Chaipau (talk) 13:37, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Not only cherry-picked but misinterpreted. I don't know if this is block evasion but it's certainly not in the interest of building an encyclopedia. Richard Keatinge (talk) 14:18, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes. Any discussion on this will likely be WP:FORUMy and unending. Chaipau (talk) 14:52, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

You misunderstood me. Please read the article. Rulers didn't connect to the demonic side of Naraka. Therefore something new was invented in epigraphic records and Kalika Puran e.g. (Naraka as the progenitor of the Varmans is far from Naraka as an asura notorious for his evil deeds in epic-puranic traditions. The epigraphic records of Bhāskaravarman neither apply any terms denoting demonic beings (asura, dānava, daitya, etc.) to Naraka nor describe his acts in a negative way. page=591) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2409:4065:D98:997:9C6A:4927:7AD5:37CF (talk) 14:32, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Require page protection. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 15:31, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅ Abecedare (talk) 15:43, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Wrong allegation. If you think my edits were incorrect, update them according to your understanding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2409:4065:D98:997:9C6A:4927:7AD5:37CF (talk) 15:57, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Kamarupa


text:
Talk:Marxist school of economics

Merge with Marxian economics
User:Jni has put merge templates on this page and Marxian economics. It's not clear from his tags which way round he sees the merge occuring; in any case there's a question over what the best name for the article would be: I propose rename the better article of the two to Marxist economics, and merge the weaker article into it. I suppose Marxian economics is the stronger page, but I don't think there is much in it.
 * 1) Against Marxian economics: I find 'Marxian' to be a rather tiresome adjective, with its usual more-Marxist-than-thou connotations (Vulgar? Quoi moi?), and its certainly much less used than Marxist.  I said a bit on Talk:Marxian economics in one of my first ever Wikipedia edits;
 * 2) Against Marxist school of economics: is there any doubt that Marxist economics is a school? This phrase seems redundant to me, and is also less used than Marxist economics.

While I'm on the topic, I think the economics pages could do with a Schools of economics page and category, which would do quite a bit to tidy up Category:Economic_theories, and could be modelled on the HET page. Charles Stewart 19:25, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The use of he/she his/her is gratuitous, although not surprising that it would be found in this article. Not sure what the Wiki policy on pronouns is, but it seems like we could use half as many here. Paul 01:26, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Merge and rename
Note: This article is listed on the Community portal List of things to do - Merge.

It seems to me that "marxian economics" would imply Marx's economic thought. This article is broader than that, as it includes other Marxist thinkers. "Marxist school of economics" on the other hand, doesn't seem accurate. A school surely implies a defined group of thinkers (e.g., Frankfurt School). So I agree with Charles that using the term "Marxist" would be best. Therefore, I think that this article should be merged with the Marxist school article and renamed Marxist economics. Sunray 22:31, 2004 Dec 29 (UTC)

title: Talk:Marxist school of economics


text:
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Alberuni/Proposed decision

Case Closed on 10 January 2005

Arbitrators should vote for or against each point or abstain.
 * Only items that receive a majority aye vote will be enacted.
 * Items that receive a majority nay vote will be formally rejected.
 * Items that do not receive a majority aye or nay vote will be open to possible amendment by any Arbitrator if he so chooses. After the amendment process is complete, the item will be voted on one last time.
 * Items that receive a majority abstentions will need to go through an amendment process and be re-voted on once.

Conditional votes for or against and abstentions should be explained by the Arbitrator in parenthesis after his time-stamped signature. For example, an Arbitrator can state that he would only favor a particular remedy based on whether or not another remedy/remedies were enacted.

Temporary ban
1) Alberuni is banned from editing articles which relate to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict pending resolution of this matter. (Based on POV editing, edit warring, violations of the 3 revert rule, and personal attacks.)

 * Aye:
 * Fred Bauder 16:08, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 16:45, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * James F. (talk) 17:17, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Grunt 🇪🇺 03:13, 2005 Jan 1 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 06:45, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Ambi 15:37, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:

Proposed principles
proposed wording to be modified by Arbitrators and then voted on

Template
1) {text of proposed principle}

 * Aye:

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:

Three-revert rule
1) Users must follow the three-revert rule; Articles may not be reverted more than three times in a 24 hours period except for simple vandalism.

 * Aye:
 * Fred Bauder 16:58, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)
 * James F. (talk) 17:49, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Grunt 🇪🇺 03:13, 2005 Jan 1 (UTC)
 * Ambi 04:42, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 06:45, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 16:26, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * →Raul654 16:30, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 20:04, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:16, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:

Courtesy
2) Users are expected to be courteous to other users. The prinicples of wikietiquette should followed.

 * Aye:
 * Fred Bauder 17:14, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)
 * James F. (talk) 17:49, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Grunt 🇪🇺 03:13, 2005 Jan 1 (UTC)
 * Ambi 04:42, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 06:45, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 16:26, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * →Raul654 16:30, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 20:04, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:16, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:

No personal attacks
3) Users are expected to avoid using personal attacks.

 * Aye:
 * Fred Bauder 18:27, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)
 * Grunt 🇪🇺 03:13, 2005 Jan 1 (UTC)
 * Ambi 04:42, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 06:45, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 16:26, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * →Raul654 16:30, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 20:04, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:16, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:

Proposed findings of fact
proposed wording to be modified by Arbitrators and then voted on

Template
1) {text of proposed finding of fact}

 * Aye:

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:

Violations of the 3 revert rule
1) Alberuni has violated the 3 revert rule on several occasions. 19 Nov 2004 (UTC) Black September reverted five times in 24 hours: rv Zioprop rv anon vandal rv anon parade rv anon rv anon mute. Viriditas gives two other examples. When requested to follow the rule he responded rudely

 * Aye:
 * Fred Bauder 16:55, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)
 * Grunt 🇪🇺 03:14, 2005 Jan 1 (UTC)
 * Ambi 04:42, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 06:45, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 16:26, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * →Raul654 16:30, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:16, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 00:43, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:

Discourtesy
2) Alberuni has been discourteous to other users, for example when requested that he comply with the 3 revert rule he responded with "get a life", when requested to review the no personal attacks policy, he responded with

 * Aye:
 * Fred Bauder 17:22, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)
 * Grunt 🇪🇺 03:14, 2005 Jan 1 (UTC)
 * Ambi 04:42, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 06:45, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 16:26, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * →Raul654 16:30, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 20:14, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:16, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:

Personal attacks
3) Alberuni has made personal attacks on other users.

 * Aye:
 * Fred Bauder 18:36, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)
 * Grunt 🇪🇺 03:14, 2005 Jan 1 (UTC)
 * Ambi 04:42, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 06:45, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 16:26, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * →Raul654 16:30, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:16, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:

Sock puppets
4) Just after this case was brought to arbitration, Alberuni created at least twelve sock puppets, some with names that were designed to provoke Jewish editors (NeverAgain, Wiesenthaler) or that were themselves personal attacks (Jewjg). These sock puppets were deliberately used to further the edit wars and make personal attacks.

 * Aye:
 * David Gerard 04:09, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 06:45, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 16:26, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Grunt 🇪🇺 16:28, 2005 Jan 1 (UTC)
 * →Raul654 16:30, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC) - the wording is now acceptable
 * Fred Bauder 13:35, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 21:25, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 00:03, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Ambi 00:15, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:
 * Ambi 04:42, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC) I think this goes a little bit easy on Alberuni. They were used in a deliberate attempt to evade the three revert rule and the personal attacks policy.
 * I've added "deliberately" - David Gerard 16:26, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:16, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC) further edits wars and make personal attacks - yes, but I can't find the evidence of avoiding the three revert rule - can someone point me in the right direction? happy with wording now

Remedies
proposed wording to be modified by Arbitrators and then voted on

3RR violations
1) For numerous violations of the 3RR, Alberuni is banned for three months.

 * Aye:
 * Grunt 🇪🇺 03:18, 2005 Jan 1 (UTC)
 * I'd like longer - David Gerard 04:26, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Ambi 04:42, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 16:26, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 02:33, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)

 * Nay:
 * →Raul654 16:31, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC) - this is quite a bit longer than previously applied.
 * Fred Bauder 13:38, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 22:15, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:16, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Abstain:

1.1) For numerous violations of the 3RR, Alberuni is banned for one month.

 * Aye:
 * This may be too short. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 04:14, 2005 Jan 1 (UTC)
 * →Raul654 16:30, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC) - this seems in line with our previous bans for numerous violations.
 * Fred Bauder 13:38, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 22:15, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Too short, but it seems 1 is going to fall a single vote short, so this is better than nothing. Ambi 04:33, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Ditto ambi... Neutralitytalk 04:57, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:16, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:

1.2) For numerous violations of the 3RR, Alberuni is banned for one year.

 * Aye:

 * Nay:
 * This is almost certainly too long. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 04:14, 2005 Jan 1 (UTC)
 * Fred Bauder 13:38, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 22:15, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:16, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Abstain:
 * Right penalty, wrong reason - David Gerard 04:26, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Concur with David. Ambi 04:42, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 06:45, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 16:26, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Personal attacks
2) For numerous personal attacks, Alberuni is banned for a further two weeks.

 * Aye:
 * Grunt 🇪🇺 03:18, 2005 Jan 1 (UTC)

 * Nay:
 * Too short - David Gerard 04:26, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Absolutely too short. Ambi 04:42, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 06:45, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 16:26, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Fred Bauder 15:57, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 22:15, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:16, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Abstain:

2.1) For numerous personal attacks, Alberuni is banned for a further one week.

 * Aye:
 * Grunt 🇪🇺 03:18, 2005 Jan 1 (UTC)

 * Nay:
 * Too short - David Gerard 04:26, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC).
 * Way, way too short. Ambi 04:42, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 06:45, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 16:26, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Fred Bauder 15:57, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 22:15, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:16, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Abstain:

2.2) For numerous personal attacks, Alberuni is banned for a further two months.

 * Aye:
 * I'd like longer - David Gerard 04:26, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Fred Bauder 15:57, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:16, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Nay:
 * Too long. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 04:14, 2005 Jan 1 (UTC)
 * Not long enough. Ambi 04:42, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 06:45, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 16:26, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Abstain:

2.3) For numerous personal attacks, Alberuni is banned for a further one year.

 * Aye:
 * Read the edit history of some of those socks. He was going all out on deliberate personal attacks - David Gerard 04:26, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * I really believe this is the only acceptable option. Alberuni has made a very great number of personal attacks, and taken this to lengths that frankly, remind me of hard-banned user Reithy. Ambi 04:42, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 06:45, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 16:26, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * →Raul654 16:30, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 22:15, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Fred Bauder 21:03, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)

 * Nay:
 * Too long. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 05:23, 2005 Jan 1 (UTC)
 * Fred Bauder 15:57, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:16, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Abstain:

Personal attack parole
3) Alberuni is placed on standard personal attack parole for up to and including two months after any bans that are imposed. If he makes any edits which are judged by an administrator to be personal attacks, then he shall be temp-banned for a short time, up to one week, and the parole shall be reset.

 * Aye:
 * Grunt 🇪🇺 03:18, 2005 Jan 1 (UTC)
 * At the very least David Gerard 04:26, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 06:45, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * →Raul654 16:32, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Fred Bauder 15:57, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)

 * Nay:
 * He should be placed on indefinite personal attack parole, and banned for longer than two months. Whoever said the Arbitration Committee was toothless? Ambi 04:42, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 16:26, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Agree with Ambi. I see no reason why a personal attack parole should be this short. Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 22:15, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:16, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Abstain:

3.1) Alberuni is placed on standard personal attack parole indefinitely for one year after all bans that are imposed. If he makes any edits which are judged by an administrator to be personal attacks, then he shall be temp-banned for a short time of up to one week.

 * Aye:
 * Grunt 🇪🇺 17:20, 2005 Jan 6 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 20:06, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)
 * Fred Bauder 20:59, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:16, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * David Gerard 21:20, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC) Yep.
 * Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 00:36, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Nay:

 * Abstain:

Discussion
4) Alberuni is required to discuss all reverts on the relevant talk page, with the goal of finding mutually acceptable compromises.

 * Aye:
 * Grunt 🇪🇺 03:18, 2005 Jan 1 (UTC)
 * I'd like to see that - David Gerard 04:26, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Ambi 04:42, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 06:45, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 16:26, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * →Raul654 16:32, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Fred Bauder 15:57, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 22:15, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:16, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:

Good behaviour
5) If Alberuni can demonstrate good skill in discussion and behaviour relatively free of personal attacks, he may apply to the Arbcom to have the above restrictions reduced or lifted.

 * Aye:
 * Grunt 🇪🇺 03:18, 2005 Jan 1 (UTC)
 * On the proviso that the one-year ban passes. If not, then very much oppose. Ambi 04:42, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 06:45, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 16:26, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * →Raul654 16:36, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC) - Everyone should be given the opportunity to have their standing order revisited.
 * He's tried to work the system already; this would be an invitation to more OK, Raul is right - David Gerard 18:04, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Fred Bauder 15:57, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 22:15, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:16, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:

Enforcement
proposed wording to be modified by Arbitrators and then voted on

Reversion violations
1) Should Alberuni revert an article without discussion, an administrator may block him for up to 24 hours.

 * Aye:
 * Grunt 🇪🇺 03:18, 2005 Jan 1 (UTC)
 * David Gerard 04:29, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Ambi 04:42, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 06:45, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * ➥the Epopt 16:26, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * →Raul654 16:32, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Fred Bauder 21:16, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)
 * Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 22:16, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * sannse (talk) 21:16, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Nay:

 * Abstain:

Motion to close
Four Aye votes needed to close case

 * We now have enough votes everywhere to pass at least one subsection of each of the remedies above. With the votes tallied thus, Alberuni would be banned for a year and three months, with personal attack parole applied for what I assume is the two months immediately thereafter. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 16:41, 2005 Jan 1 (UTC)
 * You sure? We have no recusals, that means we need six votes - David Gerard 18:04, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * We've got six votes in 1) and 2.3). That renders the other 1.x and 2.x sections irrelevant for the purpose of vote tallying. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 20:42, 2005 Jan 1 (UTC)
 * We only have five in 2.3 that I can see. This isn't done yet - I oppose closing. No need to rush. Ambi 23:07, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * I see six names under 2.3; this construes six votes. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 02:47, 2005 Jan 2 (UTC)
 * We need six votes in support, though, and unless you're changing your vote, we only have five. Ambi 04:32, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Point taken; withdrawing motion. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 04:37, 2005 Jan 2 (UTC)

 * Now that we have a majority on everything, I re-move to close. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 02:04, 2005 Jan 9 (UTC)
 * Ambi 03:30, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * I would very much like my concern on finding of fact 4 looked at first -- sannse (talk) 13:33, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC) Agree to close now -- sannse (talk) 00:06, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * David Gerard 00:08, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutralitytalk 00:38, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)