text:
Talk:Fullerton, California

Keith Van Horn
He's no longer a member of the Dallas Mavericks by God. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.20.213.217 (talk) 12:24, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Illegal Immigrants
The last edit done by an unspecified IP address was done by me (fm.illuminatus, while I was signed out). I changed the article back to "illegal immigrants" because some of the politically correct and purposely unspecific comments by users here designed to cover up the facts of the situation will not be tolerated. I live in Fullerton, a city that is being increasingly overrun by illegal immigrants, and just because a few of you would rather protect criminals than acknowledge the problem, doesn't mean I'm going to tolerate you covering up the truth. That specifically goes to "Shirley Ku". This is a forum about facts, not politically correct bullshit.

Hi, this is Shirley Ku. I also live in Fullerton. And while there may or may not be more illegal immigrants in Fullerton than there used to be, changing the sentence doesn't actually inform readers of the actual demographic shift, which is from a white/caucasian community to one with a greater percentage of asians and hispanics. And can you cite the fact where Fullerton is being overrun by illegal immigrants? B/c we can cite information from the U.S. Census that states that there are more hispanics and asians in 2005 than there were in 2000.

From http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/ACSSAFFFacts?_event=Search&geo_id=&_geoContext=&_street=&_county=fullerton&_cityTown=fullerton&_state=04000US06&_zip=&_lang=en&_sse=on&pctxt=fph&pgsl=010

2005: White 49.3 Asian 22.5 Hispanic or Latino 32.1

2000: White 61.9 Asian 16.1 Hispanic or Latino 30.2 Shirley Ku 19:51, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

You're missing the issue, there is a population shift, but more LEGAL Hispanics and Asians are not a serious or contentious political issue. To top it off, that process (especially of Asians moving to Fullerton) has been happening for a while, more than just a few years. However, as a serious current political issue facing Fullerton, illegal immigrant crime and population growth is far more important than a minor demographic shift of Asians and legal Hispanics, who contribute to this city positively. Acting like it's just a minor migration of citizens and legal immigrants that is upsetting the political and economic situation is just intentionally misleading the reader from the real political and economic problems in the city, ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT CRIMINALS. If you want to mention a demographic shift among legal immigrants that badly, do it in a different paragraph, and don't pretend it's a serious issue to distract the reader from the real problems facing Fullerton, illegal immigrants. When I have a chance, I will re-write the paragraph again. --Fm.illuminatus 09:21, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Other
Oops -- I did some possibly contentious edits while not logged in. That was me today :-) Wow, the stuff I changed was just wildly POV. --Bcrowell 03:50, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Troy High School
Someone left the following unsigned message for me on my talk page:
 * Do you have something against Troy? It is a noteworthy accomplishment that Fullerton is home to a top-25 Newsweek high school. Any way you slice the metrics, it is still a notable achievement. I agree that we don't have to write in great detail about the school's prestige, etc. and that this is what the school's page is for. However, if we are to delete a stat related to civic pride, why shouldn't we delete "the area it is best known for its winning collegiate baseball program. In 2004 the CSUF Titans won their fourth NCAA Division I World Series" and merely state that CSUF is located in the city limits. The point of the Fullerton article is to give readers an introduction to fundamental aspects of the city's culture, demographics, educational system, history, etc. Part of this includes highlighting newsworthy successes.

If you go back through the edit history of this article, there's a long history of Troy enthusiasts adding promotional material about how great Troy is. That kind of stuff is inappropriate, in my opinion. I've also deleted the stuff about CSUF's athletic programs. The place for all this detail is the articles about the schools themselves.--Bcrowell 15:15, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
 * While I agree the original description of Troy from months ago was ridiculous, I think a sentence or two establishing the notability of an institution is not inappropriate. Troy's national ranking is notable (and that's coming from a Sunny Hills family member). As currently written, there is no obvious reason why the city should "pride itself" on its schools—it becomes meaningless boosterism. I'd furthermore say that a single sentence mentioning CSUF's athletic reputation is quite appropriate as well, considering it's the only reason why anybody where I am (on the Eastern Seaboard) has heard of Fullerton (the same Fullerton as the baseball school?). I don't follow college baseball and wouldn't have mentioned it otherwise. Such mentions in passing are no different from, say, Torrance mentioning television shows taped at Torrance High School, and far more discrete than, say, Houston about its universities. - choster 16:54, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
 * IMO, this is all stuff that belongs in the schools' articles, not in the Fullerton article. If the reader wonders "the same Fullerton as the baseball school?," he can click on the link. If the reader wonders why Troy H.S. is worthy of community pride, he can click on the link.--Bcrowell 17:14, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Picture?
I live in Fullerton. Any suggestions on good subjects for pictures? Since it's a railroad town, a picture of the station would make sense, but I'm not sure where it can be photographed from so that it doesn't just look like a parking lot. The existence of a real downtown is distinctive for Orange County. Maybe a shot of some of the nice old architecture looking down Harbor, between Chapman and Commonwealth?--Bcrowell 14:38, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * The downtown would be good. Maybe a photo from the bridge over the tracks would give a nice angle on the station.--Epolk 19:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Shawn Nelson, Mayor
Please help disambiguate the article shawn nelson in the infobox; I have temporarily changed it to S. Nelson to avoid putting a bad redirect to a deceased u.s. military article. SallyD1265 01:41, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Changed it back to Shawn Nelson but since I couldn't get rid of the link or find any wiki articles on him, I linked it to the Fullerton City Website.Shirley Ku 19:36, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Link Spam
While cleaning up the link spam from Bjimer I noticed that they added their links here back in January. Since it has been such a long time I will leave it up to the regular editors to decide if it should be kept. The edits in question are: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fullerton%2C_California&diff=104221176&oldid=103645116

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fullerton%2C_California&diff=next&oldid=104221176

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fullerton%2C_California&diff=prev&oldid=145367601

Mikemill 05:45, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Recent history
There is a proposal to develop the Coyote Hills area, the last undeveloped area in the city. This controversial issue has pitted local environmentalists and slow-growth activists (who argue that the city should seek state funding to buy the area and make into a park) against the pro-business and pro-growth City Council. There are also plans to build approximately 300 condominiums or apartments downtown, leading to more density.

This is poorly worded. Environmentalists and slow-growth proponents can be pro-business and pro-growth. If development and growth are done sustainably, there are many environmentalists who are OK with it. Building 300 residences downtown in an already developed area would also be supported as opposed to putting 300 houses of sprawl in an undeveloped area, especially if they're built using green building guidelines. There are also many businesses working to reduce their environmental impact, so I don't see how environmentalists would be opposed to their existence. As it's worded though, the impression I get is that the environmentalists and slow-growth proponents are anti-business and anti-growth, which doesn't even make sense since slow-growth obviously would still allow growth. And why are they called "activists" on here? Why not also call the City Council rapid-growth activists or pro-sprawl activists if you're going to use the word? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.105.146.239 (talk) 08:43, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Fullertonseal2.gif
Image:Fullertonseal2.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 21:12, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Back and Forth edits to Nickname = fulas
What is with this "Nickname" being added and removed over and over?

Please provide some form of reference or justification for the "nickname" of the city being "fulas"

If no reference or reason can be cited, I suggest that this page be locked for a time to stop the back and forth changes. OChistory (talk) 06:11, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I live in Fullerton and I've never heard it called "Fulas" but I'll ask some teens I know and see if it's a young person thing. Shirley Ku (talk) 19:09, 11 March 2008 (UTC) A brief internet search shows that it's a nickname used by primarily hispanics? I did ask some teens and they had never heard of it though. ie http://13radicalriders14.blogspot.com/2005/08/your-town-moniker.html Shirley Ku (talk) 23:15, 15 March 2008 (UTC) We have resided and/or worked in Fullerton for about thirty years and we haven't heard the term. My eighteen year old daughter also has never heard of it. However, we aren't Hispanic. Davefoc (talk) 16:37, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I've lived in fullerton for 30+ years, attended Troy High School, Fullerton Community College, and Cal-State Fullerton. I've never heard the city referred to as "F-town". Is this some slang-term used only by a small minority of inhabitants among themselves? If so, it has no place in this article until it comes into common use by a significant percentage of those people who actually live there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JamesUser (talk • contribs) 20:09, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I no longer live in Fullerton and was looking something up. I never heard the term. It's a Wikipedia troll power trip situation. We have one in my new town too. Some jerk whose main entries are for teen comedies tried to use Wikipedia to start a tougher, more "urban" sounding nickname. When people protested, well, that thrilled him. He'd forced grownups to notice him. After long debates in the Talk session, which he loved, finally, somebody made a sarcastic comment about his troll word in a local newspaper, mentioning the name-- and he jumped on it and said, "It's in a newspaper! Now you have to let me cite it." Just give up on this nonsense. Do not feed the trolls. Wikipedia isn't perfect. Profhum (talk) 18:06, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Early History
This is the opening sentence of the early history section: Evidence of prehistoric habitation is present in Ralph B. Clark Regional Park in the northwest of the city.

I'm familiar with Ralph B. Clark Park and I haven't seen this evidence. I asked one of the leaders of the family fossil day outings that are put on by the park and he said that there was no evidence of early human habitation in the park and that if there was he would know about it. At the very least it seems like the quoted sentence requires a citation. --Davefoc (talk) 16:44, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Section section?
The Section section has one entry, Fuller Park.

Is there any official division of Fullerton into sections? If so what are the boundaries.

I found one real estate site that referred to a Fuller Park area of Fullerton, but I didn't find any description of what it was. Is this just the name of the housing development that these houses are located in? What did the person who added this section have in mind? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Davefoc (talk • contribs) 18:53, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Los Angeles Portal Link
Jojhutton deleted the link to the Los Angeles Portal article and Butros reinstated it.

Why? Fullerton is clearly not in the city of Los Angeles or the county of Los Angeles. I thought the Portal article might be about the Los Angeles metropolitan area that Fullerton is certainly part of, but when I looked at the Los Angeles Portal article it seemed to be about the city or perhaps the county of Los Angeles and not the metropolitian area. So why does Butros feel a link to an article about Los Angeles is appropriate for an article about a city in Orange, County? I think Jojhutton edit should be reinstated unless somebody can explain why the link in question is appropriate for an article on Fullerton.--Davefoc (talk) 05:39, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to delete the link to the Los Angeles Portal because: 1. Despite the fact that the name of the article has changed to Portal: Greater Los Angeles, the link still says Los Angeles. 2. The link uses a picture of the Los Angeles city seal which has nothing to do with an article on Fullerton. 3. Even if the name of the article has changed, it still starts off like it is an article about Los Angeles and not about Greater Los Angeles. 4. There are articles on Greater Los Angeles and the Los Angeles Metropolitan area. These articles are unambiguously about what they are titled as and if any articles like this should be linked to those would seem to have priority over an article which is not clearly related to something about Fullerton. --Davefoc (talk) 02:24, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Population figures
I'm reverting an edit which used an estimated population figure for January 1, 2010 from the California Department of Finance. I believe the usual practice for U. S. cities is to use the most recent U. S. census figures, in order to be consistent across all U. S. cities. Vgranucci (talk) 02:53, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Recent addition of history and errata
I like where the 20:30, 22 August 2011 edit is going, but there are parts that have problems with conjecture, weasel words, and opinion. Could someone help clean it up a bit? Vnarfhuhwef (talk)

Freedom of say's edits about the death of a homeless man that involved the Fullerton Police
I deleted the entire section. The wording was inflammatory, unsourced and in the style of a rant not appropriate for an encyclopedia.

I agree with Freedom of say that the story is important enough that it deserves mention in the article, however, I suspect that he realizes that the style of the section he added was inappropriate for Wikipedia. The story has attracted national attention and there are certainly adequate sources to document a brief NPOV overview of the story. Alternatively an external link to an article about the incident with a NPOV might be appropriate. --Davefoc (talk) 06:30, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Kelly Thomas
Since the deletion of the section it is of note that no one with an interest in this predominantly Republican city has ever been bothered to amend any details regarding this event. After all it does strike me as odd that the barbarous and disproportionate beating of a mentally-ill homeless man by paid law enforcement officers gets zero mention. Furthermore an aggravating feature of whole sad debacle is Thomas had nothing to do with the crime being investigated. If there was ever a poster boy for "being in the wrong place at the wrong time", Thomas would be that guy. He looked rough, he was acting odd, but are they reasons to beat him to death? If that ain't notable enough for the good citizens of Fullerton, all I can say is god help them!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.158.249.169 (talk) 01:04, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I support the addition of a section on this to the article. Since I deleted this section there is even more information about the case available and about some of the problems with regard to the Fullerton Police department have come to light. Even Republicans don't like to see the police beat the crap out of people and even if you are a Democrat I am sure it would be fine with Wikipedia if you wanted to create the section. --Davefoc (talk) 05:43, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I've added a short section on this. I've attempted to be NPOV, and I've given cites and a wikilink to the WP article on the killing of Thomas.--75.83.69.196 (talk) 02:21, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

deleted material about Fullerton Observer lawsuit
I've deleted the following: "In July 2010, the city of Fullerton and the Orange County Register newspaper legally challenged the Fullerton Observer to prove itself a newspaper. In response, the Fullerton Observer dropped its court case to be adjudicated a newspaper." This was inaccurate, since the issue was not whether the observer was a newspaper but whether it was a "newspaper of general circulation" that the city needed to print official notices in. It isn't, because it isn't biweekly and doesn't have paid subscribers. This lawsuit is of very low relevance in a general article about the city, and the material I deleted seems to be a thinly veiled POV jab at the Observer, whose left-wing politics are objectionable to many people in the city.--75.83.69.196 (talk) 02:14, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Current Political section
Is this kind of section typical of articles about cities?68.27.193.209 (talk) 12:50, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Fullerton Chamber of Commerce Website Link Incorrect
To Whom It May Concern:

The current hyperlink to The Fullerton Chamber of Commerce is incorrect. The correct hyperlink should take you to The Fullerton Chamber of Commerce as it takes you to Fullerton.org which is not the correct site and does not currently have any active content whatsoever. Thank you in advance for your attention in correcting this incorrect website link and error and ensuring that the correct Fullerton Chamber of Commerce website link is available.

External links modified
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Music/Arts in Fullerton
FYI George Fullerton was not related to the city’s namesake. You could write a whole book on music from/in Fullerton! Would be nice to see mention of other arts through the Muck, Fullerton Museum Center, FC & CSUF, and others. Also - Stages Theater is alas no more. Suzhofmom (talk) 18:09, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Fullerton, California


text:
Herbs (band)

Herbs are a New Zealand reggae group founded in 1979 and led by singer-guitarist Dilworth Karaka, the only constant member. Since its foundation Herbs has been multi-ethnic in membership and featured Samoans, Tongans, Cook Islanders, New Zealand Europeans and Maori members. The 11th inductees into the New Zealand Music Hall of Fame, were once described as "New Zealand's most soulful, heartfelt and consistent contemporary musical voice". It has been said their debut EP What's Be Happen? "set a standard for Pacific reggae which has arguably never been surpassed".

Politics
The band has always been political, with links to the Polynesian Panthers and the cover of Whats' Be Happen (released during the 1981 Springbok tour) being an aerial photo of police action at Bastion Point in 1978. As well as race relations, the band took a strong stance on nuclear weapons in the Pacific with "French Letter".

History
Herbs produced a stream of reggae hits with some of the country's top talent. In the 1980s and the first half of the '90s, Herbs had 10 top 20 singles hits. Herbs also worked alongside UB40, Taj Mahal, Billy Preston, Neil Sedaka, Tina Turner, Neil Young, George Benson, Joe Walsh, and Stevie Wonder.

Herbs' music is upbeat and clear in its messages. Their 1982 New Zealand hit "French Letter", which spent 11 weeks on the charts, expressed New Zealand's anti-nuclear stance. Fourteen years later, it was re-recorded to garner support for the prevention of nuclear testing at Mururoa. Similarly, "No Nukes (The Second Letter)", "Nuclear Waste" and "Light of the Pacific" expressed much the same sentiment.

Herbs' third release and first full album Long Ago, which featured the 1984 single of the same name, was produced by well-known New Zealand bass player Billy Kristian. In 1986, former Be-Bop Deluxe bassist/vocalist Charlie Tumahai joined the group, having been a session musician for various international acts.

In 1986, "Slice of Heaven" with Dave Dobbyn reached number one on both the New Zealand and Australian charts. In 1989, Tim Finn joined them for "Parihaka" and, in 1992, Annie Crummer fronted the hit single "See What Love Can Do".

Around this time the band forged into producing, providing instrumentation for Samoan singing sensation John Parker. The album titled Another Girl produced a local hit, a reggae-funk inspired cover of the Maori folk song "E Papa".

In 1989, the band was assisted by Eagles member Joe Walsh, who produced, played slide guitar and sang on the band's Homegrown album, which featured a cover of "Walk Away Renee", originally recorded by The Left Banke. Walsh announced he had joined Herbs, but the union lasted less than a year. Walsh gives credit to the members taking him to 'the ruins at Hawke's Bay', where he had 'a moment of clarity' – for inspiring him to pursue sobriety.

They also provided two songs to the 1990 film, The Shrimp on the Barbie: A cover of the Peggy Lee song "Mañana (Is Good Enough for Me)" and "Listen".

Herbs are considered pioneers of the Pacific reggae sound, having paved the way for contemporary New Zealand reggae groups such as Fat Freddy's Drop, Katchafire, The Black Seeds, and Trinity Roots.

Although their last album of new material was released in 1990, Herbs still perform in New Zealand and Australia, with guitarist Dilworth Karaka the last remaining member of the original line-up that released Whats' Be Happen? in 1981. Of the 2013 line-up, Karaka, keyboardist Tama Lundon (joined 1983) and percussionist Thom Nepia (joined 1985) remain from the band's late 1980s commercial peak.

"Homegrown" is featured on the soundtrack of Once Were Warriors.

Tama Renata died in November 2018.

Herbs lineups

 * Other former members
 * Dave Pou – bass guitar
 * John Berkley – bass guitar
 * Alan Foulkes – percussion
 * Kristen Hapi – drums
 * Juanito Muzzio – percussion
 * Grant Pukeroa – vocals/drums
 * Max Hohepa – vocals/bass guitar
 * Lionel Nelson – vocals
 * Ned Webster – drums
 * Ryan Monga – drums

Past members

 * Toni Fonoti – vocals/percussion
 * Spencer Fusimalohi – vocals/guitar
 * Fred Faleauto (deceased) – vocals/drums
 * Dave Pou – bass guitar
 * John Berkley – bass guitar
 * Phil Toms – vocals/bass guitar
 * Morrie Watene – vocals/saxophone
 * Alan Foulkes – percussion
 * Carl Perkins (deceased) – vocals/percussion
 * Jack Allen – vocals/bass guitar
 * Willie Hona – (deceased) vocals/guitar
 * Charlie Tumahai (deceased) – vocals/bass guitar
 * Gordon Joll – drums
 * Joe Walsh – vocals/guitar
 * Kristen Hapi – drums
 * Juanito Muzzio – percussion
 * Grant Pukeroa – vocals/drums
 * Max Hohepa – vocals/bass guitar
 * Lionel Nelson – vocals
 * Ned Webster – drums
 * Ryan Monga – drums
 * Tama Renata (deceased) – vocals/guitar
 * Thom Nepia (deceased)

RIANZ Awards
The New Zealand Music Awards are awarded annually by the RIANZ in New Zealand.

Aotearoa Music Awards
The Aotearoa Music Awards (previously known as New Zealand Music Awards (NZMA)) are an annual awards night celebrating excellence in New Zealand music and have been presented annually since 1965.

! Ref.
 * 2012 || Herbs || New Zealand Music Hall of Fame || inductee ||
 * 2012 || Herbs || New Zealand Music Hall of Fame || inductee ||

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Herbs (band)


text:
Playfair (lunar crater)

Playfair is a lunar impact crater that is located in the rugged southern highlands on the near side of the Moon. It was named after the Scottish geologist and mathematician John Playfair. It lies along the eastern rim of the eroded satellite crater Playfair G, a formation that is almost twice the diameter of Playfair itself. Playfair is nearly due north of the crater Apianus, and to the southwest of the Abenezra–Azophi crater pair.

This crater is oval in shape, being slightly wider along the east–west axis. The rim is somewhat eroded, and tiny craterlets lie along the south and west rims. The interior floor is level and nearly featureless, with the only feature of the minor interest being a pair of tiny craterlets lying just to the east of the midpoint.

Playfair is a crater of Nectarian age.

Satellite craters
By convention these features are identified on lunar maps by placing the letter on the side of the crater midpoint that is closest to Playfair.

title: Playfair (lunar crater)


text:
32 Demands

The 32 Demands were a list of proposals for governmental reform issued by the Committee to Settle the Monopoly Bureau Incident (also known as Settlement Committee, 228事件處理委員會 or People's Purge Committee) during the February 28 Incident which occurred in Taiwan in 1947.

Events surrounding the demands
During the first week or so following the general uprising against Republic of China government authorities under Chief Executive Chen Yi, most of Taiwan was under the control of native Taiwanese under the guidance of the Settlement Committee and ROC. Governmental authority was limited to a few government compounds and garrisons. The Settlement Committee was composed of legislators, high school and college students, lawyers, doctors, labor unions, as well as members of the general public. Moderates in the committee hoped to bring about reform in the corrupt provincial administration as opposed to general rebellion against the ROC Central Government in Nanjing. Others talked of Taiwan independence or becoming a U.S. protectorate. In Pingtung, a band of them sang The Star-Spangled Banner as they took over the town.

Following several days of deliberations, Taiwanese representatives from across the island delivered a list of 32 demands to the Office of the Chief Executive on the evening of March 7, 1947. Through the proposed reforms, they hoped to eliminate the rampant corruption in the existing administration and bring about democratic reforms. There was a sense of urgency during the deliberations as the representatives feared that if reinforcement troops from mainland China arrived before the demands were delivered and announced, Chief Executive Chen would be highly unlikely to accept them in what would be for him a loss of face.

These fears were well founded as shortly afterwards ROC troops arrived from the mainland on the morning of March 9. Chief Executive Chen then began what became a massive crackdown against the native Taiwanese. The representatives of the Settlement Committee, as well as intellectuals and students were especially targeted for liquidation in the ensuing slaughter.

Reforms for equality in government

 * Enactment of a Provincial Autonomy Law which will serve as the highest law on the provincial level.
 * All government commissioners (ministers) must be confirmed by a democratically elected Council.
 * Elections for Council seats must be held before June 1947.
 * At least 2/3 of the commissioners must be from people who have resided in Taiwan for more than ten years.
 * Protection for civil liberties as well as the right of workers to strike. Abolishes requirements for the registration of newspapers.
 * Removal of laws requiring that all candidates for public office be members of the Kuomintang.
 * Provides reform on laws governing the eligibility to run for public office.
 * Abolishment of the Office of the Chief Executive, to be replaced by a Provincial Government.

One of the major problems following the handover had been the production of many conflicting and often contradictory laws, many of which were created at the whim of corrupt government officials in order to extort bribes. The enactment of a Provincial Autonomy Law was designed to get rid of this tangle of corruption. The Chief Executive's Office especially was viewed to be extremely corrupt and undemocratic, as well as being subject to undue influence from the military.

Three of the 32 Demands were intended to prevent the installation of alleged carpetbaggers from the mainland to important government positions, as had been occurring since ROC administration of Taiwan began; as well as to prevent discrimination against residents of Taiwan prior to 1945

Critics charge that such a scheme would create two classes of people, in effect creating second-class citizens and result in something resembling apartheid.

Reforms on eligibility laws were intended to create a more egalitarian process. In previous elections, all candidates had to deal with numerous regulations designed to discourage persons undesirable to the KMT from running for office, such as hefty registration fees, civil service exams, and "background checks".

Reforms to insure civil and property rights

 * Popular election for all local government positions (i.e. mayors and magistrates), to be held before June 1947.
 * Native Taiwanese were to be appointed as heads of police agencies, judges, and other members of the judicial system whenever possible.
 * The civilian police are to be the only government agency with the power to arrest criminals.

All local officials up to this point were appointed by the Chief Executive, and as a result, were mostly mainlanders, sometimes accused of being "carpetbaggers". Most of the criminal justice system had been packed by mainland appointees, most of whom allegedly were neither familiar with nor cared much for Taiwanese interests.

These reforms would also prevent the use of the military for domestic law enforcement.

Economic reforms

 * Only income taxes, luxury taxes, and inheritance taxes shall be levied.
 * Public enterprises will be headed by Taiwanese.
 * Provide for a system of inspection of public enterprises and disposal of former Japanese properties.
 * Abolition of the Monopoly Bureau and state run monopolies.

Prior to these reforms, many government officials charged high taxes on most services, allegedly amounting to little more than organized graft. Certain items such as salt, tobacco, liquor, and camphor were restricted to production and sale by the government, leading to inflated prices. It was a conflict between the Monopoly Bureau agents and a cigarette vendor which sparked the outbreak of the February 28 Incident.

Military reforms

 * Military Police are restricted to arresting only military personnel.
 * As many Taiwanese as possible shall be assigned to fill military posts on Taiwan.
 * Abolition of the Taiwan Garrison Command to prevent abuse of military privilege.

The Taiwanese had allegedly little interest in participating in the ongoing Chinese Civil War, especially since Taiwan's status at the time was still disputed by some. Troops from the mainland also had a reputation for being undisciplined and contemptuous towards Taiwanese.

Social welfare reforms

 * Guarantee of the rights and privileges of the Taiwanese aborigines.
 * Provides for workers' rights.
 * Persons detained on charges of "war crimes" and "treason" are to be immediately released.

Many Taiwanese who were the targets of official extortion or had offended a corrupt government official were detained on vague charges of "aiding the Japanese" or treason.

Secondary demands subject to compromise

 * Abolition of "Vocational Guidance Camps".
 * The Central Government must pay for the sugar exported to the mainland by the Executive Yuan.
 * The Central Government must pay for 150,000 tons of food exported to the mainland.

Taiwanese employees of companies or the government were often ordered to participate in lengthy "Vocational Guidance Camps" which were allegedly designed to get them away from work long enough so that their jobs could be replaced by mainland Chinese.

The last demand was due to an incident where the Central Government had gratuitously confiscated a large shipment of Taiwanese sugar without, then sold it on the mainland for significant profit. Similar situations also occurred with Taiwanese rice leading to major shortages and artificial price inflation.

External links and references

 * reprinted in
 * reprinted in
 * reprinted in

title: 32 Demands


text:
The Humble Guys

The Humble Guys (THG) were a cracking group for the IBM PC during the late 1980s founded by two friends known by the pseudonyms Candyman and Fabulous Furlough. The group was also noticed in the demoscene for some of their cracktros.

THG was the first group to make use of the NFO file as a means for documenting their releases before packaging and distribution. The first release to contain an .NFO file was Nova Logic's remake of the arcade classic Bubble Bobble in 1989. This has since spawned an entire generation of ASCII artists devoted solely to creating artwork for the purpose of decorating NFO files for warez groups. To put things into perspective, there are now entire websites explicitly devoted to the collection and archival of NFO files, such as The iSONEWS.

Software contributions
THG also was one of the first groups to release an "intro tool" for the IBM PC demoscene, released by their coding subsidiary, THG F/X, called the THG IntroMaker. The THG IntroMaker would allow one to create a self-contained executable program which played music and displayed graphics on screen without the need for any knowledge of computer programming. A much more advanced and highly sophisticated extension of this today would be Farbrausch's .werkkzeug.

Prior to THG's arrival on the warez scene the IBM world did not have anything other than text based intros usually quoting song lyrics. THG members brought the experience from the C64 and AMIGA warez scene bringing the first animated and graphical intros to the IBM scene.

In December 1991, the "F/X division" of The Humble Guys released a first and only copy of an electronic magazine called "The Humble Review" featuring game reviews and articles. Writer and weblogger Justin Hall would have his first article published in the Humble Review; a film review of Akira by "Fusty".

Members of THG also had their own custom BBS software, originally a "forum hack", called L.S.D. BBS (Lush Software Designs) which was first introduced on June 1, 1990, written by The Slavelord, Niteman and others. The original source code for this was Emulex/2, which was acquired by a THG member whose alias was Tripin Face. The source code was referred to as 'Jani' in some communities at the time.

In the news
On the evening of October 27, 1992, NBC aired an episode about computer hackers on Dateline titled "Are Your Secrets Safe?". This show prominently displayed ads for several warez BBSes, including one for The Slave Den BBS which was operated by a senior member and spokesperson of THG. As a result of this undesired exposure, The Slavelord voluntarily retired from his activities within the group.

On September 5, 2006, David J. Francis, known by his username "Candyman" died in his hometown of St. Louis, Missouri, of heart failure.

On October 4, 2015, Pierre Barkett, known by his username "The PieMaN" died in Florida of heart failure.

Competition
THG redefined the manner in which the PC warez scene worked when they entered the scene in 1989. Prior to THG, warez releases were haphazard, with multiple groups releasing the same title, usually after the title had been available in retail stores for weeks. Often games were released to BBSes without being cracked. THG changed this by releasing titles days before the software made it to retail chains such as Babbage's. They did this by establishing relationships with the major wholesale software distributors, and ordering games with overnight shipping. For those cases where overnight shipping wasn't enough, THG found people who lived near the software companies, who could go to the company, and buy the game the day it was released. This beat the overnight shipping method by 2 days in most cases. Also, an advantage that they possessed was that most other warez groups were run by teens, who attended school during the day. THG was run by professional men, who were available each day "by 10:30" when FedEx, or UPS delivered. The other groups had to "wait until they got home" in the afternoons. A decided advantage considering most "cracks" were done in less than an hour, and releases complete shortly thereafter.

THG had members who worked for morning TV shows. Software companies, ever eager for free advertising, would send a box of new, or in some cases "about to be released" software to a TV show, for just a simple phone call. They also understood the "progression" of software. Once a title was completed, the box, manual, and final version of the game were shipped to a "duplication house" to copy the software for sale in stores. THG had contacts in these duplication houses, where they could get the games weeks before they would show up at the store. Activision's F-14 Tomcat was one such title, along with all titles from MicroProse.

At the height of their power, THG had game suppliers in the US (country wide), UK (Leeds), France, Germany, and many parts of Asia.

THG introduced the concept of couriers in an effort to plaster their releases on their competitors' BBSes. The couriers were often told to make sure that the various groups received the latest crack on their HQ's BBS before other THG BBSes. The combination of using software wholesalers and couriers turned the PC Warez Scene upside down in 1990, but these are considered normal practice now. The fierce competition within the current warez and video scenes are directly descended from THG.

As a result, the majority of older, well established, warez groups disappeared from the scene. Of the four or five groups that were around prior to THG's arrival in December 1989, the only group that remained was the International Network of Crackers (INC), which was one of THG's greatest competitors in the IBM PC cracking scene. The file header of the executable THG cracktro,  (displayed above), contains text which reads: "Cool Hand but fucks his dog and Phantom from INC" (sic), an insulting reference towards the vice-president and courier coordinator of their rival organization, INC.

After Candyman shut down his BBS (Candyland, originally run on CNET BBS), setup, development, maintenance and unique customization were continued by The Maker who was on hand from day one. After Candyman left the United States, Fabulous Furlough took over the reins of the group. After political infighting among the remaining members of the group led to problems within the organization, several of the newer members of THG splintered off and formed a new group called USA (United Software Association) which included several noteworthy members such as, Niteman, Genesis and The Humble Babe (who changed her name to The Not So Humble Babe upon her departure from THG). USA released a few games, most of them coming from one of THG's suppliers in Illinois, whom USA had managed to "turn". After the bust of The Not So Humble Babe on credit card fraud charges in Michigan, USA teamed up with the European PC warez division of Fairlight and were cooperatively known as "USA/FLT". This inevitably lead to the two groups USA and THG warring with each other

A year after the USA/FLT fiasco, several of the original members of The Humble Guys left the group in an effort to once again capture lightning in a bottle. However, by the fall of 1992 several other groups, such as Razor 1911, had joined the scene and this new group, while having some brief success, was never as successful as THG. The new group fell apart shortly after The Slavelord shut down his BBS after the Dateline story.

During 1992 though early 1994, many THG releases were cracked by the UK branch which consisted of Hi. T. Moonweed, Bryn Rogers and Hydro, who struggled to keep the group together due to US burnout. The UK BBSes, The Flying Teapot (known as active from 1991-1992 ) and The Demons Forge (ran by Hi.T and Bryn respectively ) became the UK's major landmarks.

By 1994, most of the founding members of The Humble Guys were no longer involved with the warez scene. After the Pits BBS in New York was shut down by Novell in 1995, the group moved to IRC and had a presence on many different servers with the name #THG. They focused on distribution rather than cracking. The Humble Guys disbanded in the early 2000s when the last founding member left.

title: The Humble Guys


text:
Poisson (crater)

Poisson is a lunar impact crater that is located in the southern highlands of the Moon's near side. It was named after French mathematician Siméon Denis Poisson. It lies to the east of the crater Aliacensis and northwest of Gemma Frisius. To the northwest of Poisson is Apianus.

This heavily eroded crater shares a common floor with the satellite crater Poisson T to the west-southwest, and the two craters have more or less merged into a single formation with a narrower neck in between. The rim of Poisson is heavily eroded, and is overlain by several craters. Poisson U is intruding into the southern rim at the junction of Poisson and Poisson T. A low-walled formation is joined to the northern rim at the opposite side of the neck from Poisson U.

The interior floor of Poisson and Poisson T has been resurfaced by basaltic lava, leaving a level surface within the inner walls. A pair of old, worn craters lies along the inner wall in the southeast part of the crater.

Satellite craters
By convention these features are identified on lunar maps by placing the letter on the side of the crater midpoint that is closest to Poisson.

title: Poisson (crater)


text:
Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Kris45

In order to remain listed at Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute, not different disputes. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 03:54, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is:, 29 July 2024 (UTC).

 * (Kris45 | talk | contributions)

Statement of the dispute
''This is a summary written by users who dispute this user's conduct. Users signing other sections should not edit here.''

Description
Kris45 has been adding statements not commonly agreed upon onto articles such as FOX News, Sideburns and Mullet (haircut) and then getting into revert wars when people change it. He is also has very obvious sockpuppets User:AshIey Y (note the capital i instead of a lowercase l, to cause confusion with User:Ashley Y), User:Mogrady, User:Jello042, User:Xlogold, and possibly User:Tyrone Walters.

Evidence of disputed behavior
(provide diffs and links) (this is by no means complete; most of the contributions of these users has been somehow counter to policy.)
 * Edit war on Mullet (haircut)
 * Edit war on Afro, adding interwiki links to articles on mullets.
 * Edit war on Sideburns over whether sideburns are associated with rednecks
 * Edited Richard Simmons to say he's african-american and added him to List of African Americans (which is an obvious lie)

Applicable policies
{list the policies that apply to the disputed conduct}
 * Respect other contributors.
 * Check your facts.
 * Three revert rule.

Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute
(provide diffs and links)
 * User talk:Xlogold
 * On Mogrady's user talk, this comment which he then removed.
 * User talk:Jello042
 * Talk:Mullet (haircut)
 * Talk:Sideburns

Users certifying the basis for this dispute
(sign with ~ )
 * ℘yrop (talk) 03:54, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)
 * MaxPower 21:09, 2004 Dec 1 (UTC)
 * Ashley Y 03:24, 2004 Dec 3 (UTC)

Other users who endorse this summary
(sign with ~ )
 * ℘yrop (talk) 03:54, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)
 * MaxPower 21:09, 2004 Dec 1 (UTC)
 * Ashley Y 03:22, 2004 Dec 3 (UTC)
 * Viriditas 07:14, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * HBK 17:47, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Response
This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete.

{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries}

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~ ):

Outside view
This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute.

{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries}

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~ ):

Discussion
All signed comments and talk not related to a vote or endorsement, should be directed to this page's discussion page.

title: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Kris45


text:
Talk:Sad Wings of Destiny

Fair use rationale for Image:Sad wings of destiny cover.jpg
Image:Sad wings of destiny cover.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 22:51, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

== citation neededs in a poll on an internet message board Sad Wings tied for First Place as best JP album, there is your citation as for it being a fan favorite. 70.20.11.161 12:06, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Title track?
The article states "The album was the only one by Judas Priest not to feature a title track up until 1980's British Steel (counting "Sinner" as the title track of 1977's Sin After Sin)."

So, why not count "Steeler" as the title track of British Steel then? That would make "Point of Entry" their first album without a title track. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jjm905 (talk • contribs) 23:09, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

 * Agreed, and the line doesn't really add anything of worth to the article anyway. So I've taken it out. Prophaniti (talk) 13:35, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Sad wings of destiny cover.jpg
Image:Sad wings of destiny cover.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 10:52, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Original LP Track listing
The article states that the original track listing on the LP is starting on side 1 with "Prelude" and so on.

Well I have the LP (copyright 1975) in my possession and can say that this is not the case. The track order is the same as on the CDs starting with "Victim of changes" on side 1. Only on the sleeve it starts with "Prelude" but not on the disc.

I found also a side which supports my notice: http://www.discogs.com/Judas-Priest-Sad-Wings-Of-Destiny/release/385227

Can anyone confirm this or are there different versions of the original LP out? If not the article should be modified accordingly. 78.48.130.7 (talk) 20:33, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the LP sleeve suggests that side one begins with Prelude, but the label itself gives Victim of Changes as the opening track: http://www.collectable-records.ru/groups/judas%20priest/sad.htm

It could be that the band intended the track sequence to match the sleeve and a mistake happened with the labelling, but as a librarian and a cataloguer I'd have to select the record's label as the "chief source of information". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.66.238.27 (talk) 08:51, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Looking around at images of different pressings on the web, the "Victim of Changes" side is sometimes labelled "Side 1" and sometimes "Side A"—this blows my mind. The sequencing works so much better opening with "Prelude" and closing with "Deceiver". It has to be a mistake that nobody's bothered to fix after all these years. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 06:41, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Gull Records reissued this album in 2012 with correct tracklist on CD (Gull 88697967872-JK2).
 * Unfortunately I can find almost no info online about this release. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 20:52, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

http://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4836371

Here. Fuck copyright extremists.)
 * Ummm ... I meant I was hoping for information that could be used for the article. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 22:01, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Try looking for "The Complete Album Collection" where ALL (even Gull albums) are. "Sad Wings Wings Of Destiny" with correct tracklist among them.

Proof of this release

Scanned Booklet from The Complete Albums box

 * K. K. Downing considers "Island of Domination" the album closer. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 06:04, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

This is not reliable source. Turn the logic on and think why one track is called "Prelude"... 'Cause it would be the first one and this happened at last in the only Judas Priest-endorsed re-release of the album.
 * I know it's not a reliable source, but reliable sources don't state that "Prelude" was meant to start the album—and if a member of the band says "Island of Domination" is the album closer, then I'm not getting my hopes up that a reliable source will be found that says otherwise. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:01, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Equipment used?
Does anyone have a Reliable Source on what equipment was used on this album? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 06:14, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Epitaph
Guys. GUYS. Glenn wrote the song, not Rob, so why is Rob telling Popoff what the lyrics are about? At best, he's speculating. Should we remove that? Andreas George Skinner (talk) 18:52, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I tweaked the wording. Here's what Halford actually said:  "As there are no places for children in our modern cities, there’s also no place for the old.  And it's simply frustrating for me to see how these old human beings are forced to live their lives.  From these feelings developed the song 'Epitaph'. Besides, the lyrics and texts still have strong importance for me.  The words have to mean something for me; they have to help me articulate my feelings. Just like Glenn can make you happy or sad with his guitar playing, it has to be exactly the same with the lyrics. The sound must express what is stated in their logical content." Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 21:30, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Hey guys, did we mention Black Sabbath?
In this article, we learn that Sad Wings of Destiny is not only Black Sabbath-like, but also Sabbath-inspired with an influence of Black Sabbath, and (you'd better sit down for this) Black Sabbath-heavy and reminiscent of Sabbath! And Queen. But mostly Black Sabbath.

Is it really necessary to mention Black Sabbath *eight* different times throughout an article on another band's album? Don't get me wrong - I love Sabbath, and there's no denying their huge influence on Priest. But repeating the same comparison so many times is really grating, and comes off as unimaginative and amateurish writing. Even worse, it gives the impression that the sound of this album is completely derivative... which it isn't. If we were talking about Witchfinder General, you'd have a case, but JP were never clones. Not even on Rocka Rolla where they had Sabbath's producer.

One mention should be enough - maybe two, at most. Protip: if you really feel that the comparison helps describe specific parts or pieces, then be descriptive: instead of name-dropping, mention the qualities that evoked the comparison in the first place ('ominous', 'dark', 'brooding', 'ponderous', whatever... have at it).

79.178.70.22 (talk) 00:27, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd like to see you strip the Sabbath references down to "one, maybe two" without butchering the article. Good luck with that. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 00:35, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
 * If so many other wikipedia articles about landmark albums manage to describe the subject matter without depending so heavily on a single point of comparison, what's so preposterous about this one doing the same? At the very least, the track-by-track breakdown doesn't need those references, as long as the idea can be conveyed with descriptors. (As a bonus, readers who aren't intimately familiar with Black Sabbath would get the point more easily, I would think.)

 * If, on the other hand, you feel that it's your own work which would be "butchered" by such a change... well, that's why I'm not really inclined to do it myself; too burnt out on edit wars. Still, even if I may have come across slightly harsh up there, my suggestion isn't exactly unreasonable.79.178.70.22 (talk) 02:15, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I've dropped two mentions, but I honestly can't see dropping any of the rest. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 04:46, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Judas Priest NWoBHM?
Over the next several years Judas Priest became a prominent example of the New Wave of British Heavy Metal.

This is not generally accepted. Although a source is given that confirms this statement, one is perfectly able to come up with plenty of examples that claim the complete opposite (I can do so if necessary). If no-one vetoes this I would just delete the sentence and leave the musical classification to the Judas Priest-article. S. Hauke (talk) 16:05, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Let's see those sources first. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 20:47, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not quite sure if this source is appropriate, but one can find the thesis that Judas Priest are not to be ranked among the NWoBHM for example in the article "The History of the New Wave of British Heavy Metal" on ultimateclassicrock.com. At one point it reads "[...] as punk rock was ravaging the dinosaur-rock aristocracy, even more recent heavy metal standard bearers like Rainbow, Uriah Heep and Judas Priest were inching closer and closer to commercial hard rock sounds;" and later, relating to the NWoBHM, "[...] it needed a brand new generation of musicians who were willing to embrace it [= metal music], warts and all, then reinvent and carry it forward into the future." These two sentences in correlation eliminate the possibility that Priest could be an NWoBHM-band.

 * The whole issue becomes even more obvious in the biography "The story of Judas priest: Defenders of the faith", written by Neill Daniels. In part 3, chapter 7 it reads "[...] Judas Priest had an impact on the [NWoBHM-]period but were definitely not part of it."

 * And, finally, it is wikipedia itself that reads in its article about the NWoBHM that these bands were "Following the example of Judas Priest [...]" - a statement that would also place Priest outside of the NWoBHM-movement.

 * I hope I was able to bring some enlightening sources to the table, I can do another research on the topic if this should not be the case.S. Hauke (talk) 00:40, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I've commented out the sentence that says they were NWOBHM. I find it hard to separate Priest from NWOBHM, but if it's disputed it would be wrong to state it as a cut-and-dry fact. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 04:53, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

It didn't take long for the movement to gain more commercial momentum, but again, it didn't belong to the same musical generation as these two. Priest/Motorhead had an enormous influence on the NWOBHM, and you could argue that most of those younger bands were looking up to them, but claiming that they were part of the 'new wave' just demonstrates the limits of hindsight. No reputable *contemporary* source ever lumped them in the NWOBHM pile, and certainly I don't recall ever encountering this misinformed confusion until the early 2000s or so. 109.66.70.134 (talk) 14:01, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * There are two bands - Judas Priest and Motorhead - that get lumped in with the NWOBHM very often these days, but that's a kind of revisionism. NWOBHM was a scene/movement (not a subgenre, in any case) composed of bands that were young upstarts with a purely 'underground' status around 1979, when the term was first coined.  At that time, Priest and Motorhead had multiple-album deals and were doing arena tours; the actual NWOBHM bands were mostly unsigned, and even if a select few *did* have a debut album out on an indie label, most were lucky to play the local pub twice a month or to scrape some cash for a demo.

Track listing
According to this, the Complete Albums box set marked the first time the band authorized the release of Sad Wings on CD, and the track listing there is indeed the correct one because the sides really were mistakenly reversed when the album was first released. The first part appears to be true, and that certainly does lend a lot of weight to the idea that that track listing is the correct one after all. I can't find an RS for it, though, so the best thing to do would be, if possible, to contact someone close to the band (or Sony) and see if we can get confirmation that that is indeed the case. I looked around on the band's website, but I couldn't find a way to get in touch with anyone close to them, and the same is true for Sony, who'd probably be much less willing to help us out anyway. Does anyone know how to get in touch with someone close to the band? Esszet (talk) 20:12, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Contacting Sony or anyone else won't help us when we don't have a published RS. I'm surprised this hasn't come up in a bio or an interview somewhere.  Just listening to the album makes it obvious which side was meant to be Side A. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 20:51, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I was thinking it might be acceptable because it can easily be replicated (i.e. someone else can ask them the same question the same way), but I might have found an answer. Although the booklet that comes with the Complete Albums box (viewable in full here) doesn't say anything about it, there's something written in the lower right-hand corner on the back cover of the version of the album included in the box set, and it doesn't appear to be on other releases. Can someone with the box set see what it says? Esszet (talk) 22:24, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Never mind, it appears to be the same thing as the one here, and it just says something about playing stereo records on mono turntables or something like that. Since on second thought contacting the band probably wouldn't be good enough to be a source on here, I guess we're stuck for now. Esszet (talk) 12:28, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20041027232638/http://members.firstinter.net/markster/SADWINGSOFDESTINY.html to http://members.firstinter.net/markster/SADWINGSOFDESTINY.html

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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 14:33, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Deletion of "Songs" Section
I recently deleted the content found in the "Songs" subsection of the article, and I was reverted. This material, which appears to be personal analysis from some guy's book, is not at all needed in the article, and should not be said in Wiki-voice as fact. It is certainly the first article I have come across that features an in-depth analysis of each song's content and style in addition to a track list. Essentially, this "Songs" sub-section is providing the helpful function of listing the songs on the album with a bunch of flowery language thrown in. I don't need to know if a particular song is a chugging, riff-heavy rocker or A forward-looking, riff-heavy rocker or A quiet track with piano backing and Queen-like layered vocals or a heavy rocker with a complex riff. As I stated in my original comment, this is not Pitchfork. This is not the space for "music journalism" or song analysis. It should be removed, and whoever is responsible for it should start their own music blog. KidAd (talk) 06:52, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the ping. And thanks for leaving a message here rather than reverting, good form. The major content contributor was, whose userpage now shows a retired banner. Let's see if we get any response to the ping before carrying out anything drastic. Thanks — sparklism hey! 09:51, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) I don't think I've touched this article (are you getting confused with Curly "JFK" Turkey who has done a lot of rock / metal GAs and FAs?) Anyway, from a cursory look, the song information looks like it's cited mostly to Martin Popoff's source. I would recommend instead of having an individual section for each song, to keep the section but trim it down to maybe two paragraphs - one for each side. While I'm here, I can't help thinking that the images are off-topic and excuses to put something in for a GA - in particular, the appearance of an early 1970s picture of Joan Baez is rather tenuous. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  09:52, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
 * yes I did get confused, and reverted myself. Sorry if I woke you, but thanks for your input! — sparklism hey! 10:03, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your help! KidAd (talk) 18:35, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
 * , it doesn't look like we will get a response from at this point. What do you think to Ritchie333's suggestions above? Thanks. — sparklism  hey! 07:09, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I think this fix is appropriate. KidAd (talk) 20:36, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Sad Wings of Destiny


text:
Kobza

The kobza (кобза), also called bandura (бандура) is a Ukrainian folk music instrument of the lute family (Hornbostel-Sachs classification number 321.321-5+6), a relative of the Central European mandora. The term kobza however, has also been applied to a number of other Eastern European instruments distinct from the Ukrainian kobza.

Construction
The Ukrainian kobza was a traditionally gut-strung, lute-like stringed musical instrument with a body hewn from a single block of wood. Instruments with a staved assembly also exist. The kobza has a medium-length neck which may or may not have tied-on frets, which were usually made of gut. It was single-strung (sometimes also double-strung) and the strings were played with fingertips or occasionally with a plectrum threaded through a ring placed on the middle finger.

History
The term kobza is of Turkic origin and is related to the terms kobyz and komuz, thought to have been introduced into the Ukrainian language in the 13th century with the migration of a sizable group of Turkic people from Abkhazia settling in the Poltava region. It was usually played by a bard or minstrel known as a kobzar (occasionally in earlier times a kobeznik), who accompanies his recitation of epic poetry called duma in Ukrainian.

The Kobza acquired widespread popularity in the 16th century, with the advent of the Hetmanate (Cossack state). From the 17th century, the term bandura was often used as a synonym for the kobza. The term bandura has a Latin pedigree and reflects the growing contacts the Ukrainian people had with Western Europe, particularly in the courts of the Polish gentry. Ukrainian musicians that found employment at various German courts in the 18th century were called "pandoristen". One of these musicians, Timofiy Bilohradsky, was a lute student of Sylvius Leopold Weiss and later became a noted lute virtuoso, a court lutenist, active in Königsberg and St.Petersburg.

In the 18th century, the kobza's upper range was extended with an addition of several unstopped treble strings, known as "prystrunky", meaning: strings on the side, in a psaltery-like set-up. In the early 20th century the kobza went into disuse. Currently there is a revival of authentic folk kobza playing in Ukraine, due to the efforts of the "Kobzar Guild" in Kyiv and Kharkiv. The kobza revival however, is impeded by the absence of museum specimens: with the exceptions of a unique surviving 17th-century kobza at the Muzeum Narodowe in Kraków and a 19th-century kobza, which has been refurbished as a bandura, at the Museum of Theater and Cinematography, in Kyiv; almost all evidence is entirely iconographic and some photos from the 19th century.

Etymology
The term kobza first appeared in Polish chronicles dating back to 1331 AD. In popular parlance the term Kobza was applied to any regional lute-like instrument used by court musicians in Central-Eastern Europe. The term was occasionally used for other musical instruments of several unrelated types. The term kobza was also used in historical sources and folk songs as a synonym of bandura in the 19th and early 20th century in Ukraine. The term was occasionally used for the bagpipes and occasionally for the hurdy-gurdy in Eastern Poland, Belarus and the Volyn region in Ukraine.

The unfretted "starosvitska" bandura (a variant of gusli, developed ca. 1700 appropriated the bandura name, but was commonly referred to as a kobza, because of the name's historical cachet while the Romanian kobza or cobza is a different type of plucked lute.

Other instruments known as kobza
The term kobza was also used as a synonym in historical sources for bandura in the 19th and early 20th century in Ukraine and was even used for bagpipes and occasionally for the hurdy-gurdy in Eastern Poland, Belarus and the Volyn region in Ukraine. Eventually, the unfretted "starosvitska" bandura (a variant of gusli, developed ca. 1800) appropriated the bandura name, but was commonly referred to as a kobza, because of the name's historical cachet. The Romanian kobza or cobza is a different type of plucked lute.

The modern Ukrainian kobza
There are currently two different approaches to kobza construction: authentic fretless reconstructions, produced by adherents for the recreation of authentic folk traditions, and modern stylised fretted instruments based on a modified domra design. To date, there have been no attempts to reconstruct earlier fretted kobza of the 18th century.

The fretless kobza
The term kobza was often used as a synonym for bandura and the terms were used interchangeably until the mid-20th century. The use of the term kobza pre-dates the first known use of the term bandura.

Similarly, a "Kobzar" is a Ukrainian Folk singer and musician who may play the kobza, but who might also play other instruments instead, including the bandura. The internationally known kobzar Ostap Veresay (1803–1890), is today considered the foremost kobza player of the 19th century despite the fact that he referred to his instrument as a bandura.

He was a representative of the playing tradition stopping the strings along the neck but without frets. Veresay's instrument had six single unstopped strings mounted along the treble side of the instrument and six stoppable strings strung along the neck. The strings strung along the neck and side are plucked by the right hand with the left hand stopping the strings on the fingerboard.

After O. Veresay's death in 1890 the instrument fell into disuse until its revival in the 1980s by Mykola Budnyk and exemplified by such players as Volodymyr Kushpet, Taras Kompanichenko, Eduard Drach, and Jurij Fedynskyj.

The modern fretted kobza
A fretted version of the kobza was used by Paul Konoplenko-Zaporozhetz, who recorded a disc of kobza music for Folkways. Konoplenko first picked up the fretted kobza before the Revolution in 1917 in Kyiv from Vasyl' Potapenko and played on this instrument after emigrating to Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. Konoplenko's instrument had eight strings strung along the neck and four treble strings strung on the soundboard. The tuning used was reminiscent of the seven-string Russian guitar tuning (open G tuning).

Fretted kobzas were also developed by Mykola Prokopenko, who wrote a Ph.D. dissertation in 1976 on his efforts to reconstruct and resurrect the fretted Kobza. Prokopenko suggested that the four-stringed domra, an instrument widely taught in music schools in Ukraine but considered a Russian folk instrument but actually not used in Russia, be replaced by the fretted kobza. Although Prokopenko's suggestion was not supported in 1976, it is currently being resurrected by musicians in Ukraine in the Academic folk instrument movement, particularly at the Kyiv Conservatory.

 * Orchestral kobza, with four strings tuned in fifths using tunings that parallel those used by the instruments of the violin family. The instruments are made in prima (soprano), alto and tenor and contrabass sizes.
 * Accompaniment kobza, usually having six or seven strings and a fretted neck. The six-string version uses standard guitar tuning. The seven-string version uses a Russian guitar (open G chord) tuning.

title: Kobza


text:
Talk:Denmark in World War II

Problems with the Frikorps Danmark part
The article states several times, that “the majority of the volunteers came from the German minority in Denmark” but as the article ALSO notes, only 1500 of the 6000 volunteers were of the German minority.

(The Danish Waffen SS contingent had a rather broad recruiting base. Some were Nazis, some were anti communists, some were looking for work and some were looking for adventure.)

Likewise, the article selectively quotes a Danish author about the relationship of the Frikorps to the general population. While the relationship might have been “ice cold” in 1943, at other times the relationship was different. In 1941 for example, when it looked like Germany might win the war, the Danish Waffen SS corps not only enjoyed official encouragement and support, but also had a far better relationship to the Danish society in general, than in 1943.

192.38.143.215 (talk) 14:15, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Dubious casualty figures
Right in the beginning of the article, it is stated that over 3000 Danes lost their lives during the occupation.

However, looking at the source of that figure, it’s immediately obvious that this figure involves everything from people killed during the post occupation Soviet bombing of Bornholm, people killed by Allied bombings, extrajudicial killings, etc. etc.

Heck, almost half of the 3000 killed, comes from Danish sailors who died during the war (1200). Its rather unencyclopedic and misleading to mix figures like this. I suggest that the sentence is either expanded and clarified, or deleted altogether.

192.38.143.215 (talk) 14:37, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

 * In the sections headed 'Invasion' and 'Hardship and the end the war' I have raised citation needs against stated casualty figures where none is given. I note that the article Casualties of World War II main table does not list any figures for military dead although this article states 16 Danish Army soldiers were killed (section Invasion) and 43 were killed or injured during the invasion in a later section.Cloptonson (talk) 13:19, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

possible sources (with care)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/20/a4000320.shtml <-- this would fall under Primary Source, but it may be backed up in other RS's with similar accounts - or, if used with some caution, might benefit the article, as there are no details about the British temporary occupation of Denmark 50.111.51.247 (talk) 10:40, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Denmark in World War II


text:
Grand River Event Center

The Grand River Event Center is a convention center located in Dubuque, Iowa. It is on the riverfront of the Mississippi River, and is part of the America's River Campus at the Port of Dubuque. The center is located at 500 Bell Street.

Designed by Populous, the center has about 86,000 square feet (8,000 m2) of space for meetings, conferences, and other social functions. It is designed to accommodate groups ranging in size from 10 to 3,000. There are 12 flexible spaces that can be used for meetings and other functions. The most striking feature of the building is the "River Room," a special glass-walled room that overlooks the Mississippi river. The building is connected by a skywalk to the Grand Harbor Resort & Waterpark, which is adjacent to the events center. The center offers a number of services - such as high speed internet, catering, and underground parking.

During the 2004 Presidential campaign, President George W. Bush appeared in two campaign events that were held at the center.

title: Grand River Event Center


text:
Talk:Bruno Bettelheim

Difficult errors
1) why the initial notice that scientist template being merged? Is this of interest to the reader? 2) An editing error in the paragraph discussing Controversies > Abusive treatment, places a long quote in the middle of a sentence ending "and memoirs[footnotes]." Attempting to place "memoirs" in its proper place did not work for me, resulting in weird behavior, which I cancelled. Any takers, any ideas why? SalineBrain (talk) 03:45, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
 * That section needs a LOT of work, even with the large amount of work that's already been done to clean it up. I suspect it is an oversight from a host of overlapping edits. Feel free to take a swing at it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.65.116.97 (talk) 13:43, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Instead of a single large, somewhat jumbled section, how about three, four, or even five subsections as needed? Our "Abusive treatment of students" section currently [Oct. 2021] has just one subsection.And as always, we go with the references, no more, no less. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 21:49, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Plagiarism in Bettelheim's Uses of Enchantment is an example of us being timid
We use bland summary for the evidence Bettelheim committed plagiarism (evidence which is considerable!) And then we use a moist, juicy quote from Jacquelyn Sanders for the defense. Actually, it's a mistake to think of it as prosecution and defense. Here at Wiki, we take solid secondary sources, we lay them on the table and that is that.

Please see Plagiarism in Bettelheim's Uses of Enchantment in our article.

Plus, I think we've lost some references over time. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 20:40, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

--

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bruno_Bettelheim&diff=1051819285&oldid=1051817575
 * I added a quote from Sarah Boxer. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 20:49, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

And not a single mention of plagiarism in The Uses of Enchantment section toward the beginning?
The Uses of Enchantment

Wow.

I think we would mention it. Our readers should be able to stop reading early and not get a seriously incomplete view. Or at the very least, if they read an entire section, they should get a reasonably complete view. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 21:03, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bruno_Bettelheim&diff=1046876306&oldid=1046871577
 * I added "well-supported charges of plagiarism" to this section, including three references we already use. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 20:54, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Okay, let's change the intro, but with references please
Wfsjr2 Acroterion Whenelvisdied

A LITTLE HUMOR FIRST: Not the case that he had no credentials. Bettelheim did have the art history degree (or degree in philosophy aesthetics) which he was able to leverage quite successful. Plus, he had a Viennese accent just like Sigmund Freud! ;-)

Seriously, I've long been an advocate that we have plenty of references and we don't need to be so timid. I mean, our first sentence probably should be: CURRENT UNDERSTANDING, HOW VIEWED DURING HIS LIFETIME. For example:

"Now viewed as an imposter psychologist and described as 'a snake-oil salesman of the first magnitude,' Bruno Bettelheim was viewed during his heyday in the 1960s and '70s as an expert on child psychology, Freudianism, and autism. . . "

That would be an informative first sentence for our readers. And we certainly have the references to back it up.

I welcome everyone's suggestions. Please dive in and help. For a minor historical figure, the article still needs quite a bit of work. Thanks. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 19:02, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

 * That's fine, my chief objection is the horrible practice of inserting parenthetical qualifications into the very first sentence of an encyclopedia article.  Acroterion   (talk)   19:16, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

---

Biography As Revenge, Chicago Tribune, Marie Winn (who writes regularly for The Wall Street Journal's Leisure & Arts Page), Feb. 23, 1997:

"For as Pollak demonstrates, Bettelheim was a snake-oil salesman of the first magnitude. His concentration-camp stories were untrustworthy, he had never met Freud, and his degree was in aesthetics, not psychology. Of course, nobody had a clue at the time Bettelheim snagged the job; could anyone doubt the word of a [Holocaust] survivor?"

-

Turbulent dreams of a damaged saint, The Independent [UK], Nicholas Tucker (review of Bruno Bettelheim: A Life and a Legacy by Nina Sutton), 8 December 1995:

"despite claims to the contrary, possessed no psychology qualifications of any sort"

 * You should probably look at the RfC up the page for ideas.  Acroterion   (talk)   19:44, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

 * In fact, I'm the person that started the above RfC!As well as the previous one several years before. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 21:56, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

The previous RfC, which I also started and which is now archived, was begun in May 2019. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 22:04, 7 November 2021 (UTC) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bruno_Bettelheim/Archive_1#RfC:_how_to_cover_someone_who_doesn't_have_credentials_for_their_field?

Okay, well, is there anything good about the man? 'Course there is.

"The Strange Case of Dr. B.", Robert Gottlieb, The New York Review, Feb 27, 2003:

Gottlieb points out that Bettelheim arrived in the United States as a Holocaust survivor and refugee, without a job or really even a profession. And then Gottlieb says, "I suspect he said what he thought it was necessary to say, and was then stuck with these claims later on, when he could neither confirm them (since they were false) nor, given his pride, acknowledge that he had lied."

 * Very human motives which I think all of us can understand. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 22:06, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Article would probably benefit from subsection on Richard Pollak's 1997 bio, which was written for highly personal reasons
Richard Pollak sought out Bettelheim as an adult to ask why his brother had been at the school and what had been wrong with him. Bettelheim launched into a tirade highly critical of Pollak's parents, esp. his mother. And he insisted the brother had committed suicide. Pollak had in fact almost fallen through the same hay chute himself, and felt highly confident that his brother's death had been an accident.

And so he wondered, was Bettelheim a fraud?

All the same, Pollak continued his journalism career for years, and more than two decades passed before he returned to the question of Bettelheim. But this also means that in no way, shape, or form was his book a neutral book.

But -- and I think this is key -- serious reviewers serious newspapers wrote that (1) although Pollak's book wasn't too much fun to read, (2) he was right on the facts. And I think we just tell our readers this, with references of course.

---

And then we probably need a small subsection on Nina Sutton's 1995 bio. But let's first add the subsection for Pollak, that's more controversial and all, more question marks. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 21:48, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bruno_Bettelheim&diff=1054375292&oldid=1054241400

 * Added this subsection. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 17:54, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Reference to Zelig
Hey Lovemankind83, not sure why you deleted the section about Bettelheim's appearance in the 1983 Woody Allen movie Zelig. He's in the movie, as it indicates on the wiki page for that film, which I linked to in the text I wrote. Can you explain? Why not just a citation needed tag? Whenelvisdied (talk) 17:43, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Unless somebody objects, I'm going to revert the reference back. Whenelvisdied (talk) 14:05, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Len Zelig met all sorts of famous people. That is relevant for the Zelig article, but not for the articles about those famous people. --Hob Gadling (talk) 14:56, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Right, but Bettelheim's appearance in the film is a reflection of his public persona, and his status as a public intellectual. He didn't appear accidentally, but because Allen was using his public status in service of the documentary conceit of the film. Also, the articles of several of the famous people who appear in the film as themselves contain references to their appearances so it seems reasonable to me that Bettelheim's page does as well. Whenelvisdied (talk) 15:05, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Bruno Bettelheim


text: Category:2004 songs

title: Category:2004 songs


text:
Scoresby (crater)

Scoresby is a lunar impact crater that is located in the northern part of the Moon's near side. It is nearly attached to the crater Challis along the north-northwestern rim, and is located just to the north of the walled plain Meton. Due to its location, this crater appears highly foreshortened when viewed from the Earth, appearing elliptical in shape. It is, however, very nearly circular when seen from above.

This formation has a sharp-edged outer wall that has not been significantly worn and is not marked by impacts. It has an outer rampart that extends outwards to nearly half a crater diameter, except where intersected by Challis in the north. The wide inner walls display an appearance of having been terraced, but these have been degraded by a multitude of lesser impacts over time.

Most of the inner floor of Scoresby is level and flat, except in the northeast where it is furrowed by some rough terrain. At the midpoint of the interior is a prominent central peak formation consisting of three mountainous ridges. There is a tiny craterlet just to the west of the central peaks, and a slightly larger craterlet along the northern interior wall.

Satellite craters
By convention these features are identified on lunar maps by placing the letter on the side of the crater midpoint that is closest to Scoresby.

title: Scoresby (crater)


text:
Henry Smyth

Henry Smyth may refer to:
 * Henry Smyth (Master of Magdalene College) (died 1642)
 * William Henry Smyth (1788–1865), British astronomer
 * Henry Smyth (British Army officer, born 1816) (1816–1891), British general
 * Henry Augustus Smyth (1825–1906), Governor of Malta
 * Henry Smyth (Canadian politician) (1841–1929)
 * Charles Henry Smyth Jr. (1866–1937), American geologist
 * Henry DeWolf Smyth (1898–1986), American physicist

title: Henry Smyth