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Nordwestblock

The Nordwestblock (German, "Northwest Block") is a hypothetical Northwestern European cultural region that some scholars propose as a prehistoric culture in the present-day Netherlands, Belgium, far-northern France, and northwestern Germany, in an area approximately bounded by the Somme, Oise, Meuse and Elbe rivers, possibly extending to the eastern part of what is now England, during the Bronze and Iron Ages from the 3rd to the 1st millennia BCE, up to the onset of historical sources, in the 1st century BCE.

The theory was first proposed by two authors working independently: Hans Kuhn and Maurits Gysseling, whose proposal included research indicating that another language may have existed somewhere in between Germanic and Celtic in the Belgian region.

The term Nordwestblock itself was coined by Hans Kuhn, who considered the inhabitants of the area neither Germanic nor Celtic and so attributed to the people a distinct ethnicity or culture up to the Iron Age. So far, this has not been proven or disproven.

Language hypotheses
The hypothetical language or languages spoken by the Iron Age Nordwestblock population are a matter of speculation, as there are no written records of such languages as is the case with the Germanic language, but can be inferred based on analysis of substrate features in the primarily West Germanic languages that later came to be spoken in the region (for example, areal loanwords of unknown origin, and the presence of certain geminate consonants that cannot be explained by inheritance from Proto-Indo-European), or by analysis of place-names (toponymy and hydronymy). Broadly, this substrate area is sometimes called the North-West European substratum. Kuhn speculated on linguistic affinity of this substratum to the Venetic language, while other hypotheses connect the Northwestblock with the Raetic ("Tyrsenian") or generic Indo-European languages of the centum type (Illyrian, "Old European"). Gysseling suspected an intermediate Belgian language between Germanic and Celtic, that might have been affiliated to Italic. According to Luc van Durme, a Belgian linguist, toponymic evidence of a former Celtic presence in the Low Countries is almost completely absent. Kuhn noted that since, in Proto-Indo-European (PIE), the phoneme * was very rare, and since PIE *, via Grimm's law, is the main source of regularly inherited in words in Germanic languages (except after fricatives, e.g. initial *sp- from PIE *(s)p-), the many words in which  occurs must have some other language as their source. Similarly, in Celtic, PIE * disappeared and in regularly-inherited words did not reappear in p-Celtic languages except as a result of Proto-Celtic *kʷ becoming *p. All that taken together means that any word starting with a in a Germanic language that is not evidently borrowed from either Latin or a p-Celtic language, such as Gaulish,  must be a loan from another language. Kuhn ascribes those words to the Nordwestblock language.

Linguist Peter Schrijver assumes the pre-existence of pre-Indo-European languages linked to the archeological Linear Pottery culture and to a family of languages featuring complex verbs, of which the Northwest Caucasian languages might have been the sole survivors. Although assumed to have left traces within all other Indo-European languages as well, the influence of an unknown substrate would have been especially strong on Celtic languages originating north of the Alps and on the region including Belgium and the Rhineland.

It is uncertain when Germanic began to gain a foothold in the area. The Nordwestblock region north of the Rhine is traditionally conceived as belonging to the realms of the Northern Bronze Age, with the Harpstedt Iron Age generally assumed to represent the Germanic precedents west of the Jastorf culture. The general development converged with the emergence of Germanic within other previously Northern Bronze Age regions to the east, maybe also involving a certain degree of Germanic cultural diffusion. From about the 1st century CE, that region saw the development of the "Weser–Rhine" group of West Germanic dialects which gave rise to Old Frankish from the 4th century.

The issue still remains unresolved and so far no conclusive evidence has been forwarded to support any alternative. Mallory considers the issue a salutary reminder that some anonymous linguistic groups that do not fully obey the current classification may have survived to the beginning of historical records.

Prehistoric composition
The following prehistoric cultures have been attributed to the region and are compatible with but do not necessarily prove the Nordwestblock hypothesis.

The Bell Beaker culture (2700–2100 BCE) is thought to originate from the same geographic area, as early stages of the culture apparently derived from early Corded Ware culture elements, with the Netherlands/Rhineland region as probably the most widely accepted site of origin (J. P. Mallory, EIEC p. 53). The Bell Beaker culture locally developed into the Bronze Age Barbed Wire Beaker culture (2100–1800 BCE). In the 2nd millennium BCE, the region was at the boundary between the Atlantic and Nordic horizons, split up in a northern and a southern region, roughly divided by the course of the Rhine. To the north emerged the Elp culture (1800-800 BCE), featuring an initial tumulus phase showing a close relationship to other Northern European tumulus groups (sharing pottery of low quality: Kümmerkeramik) and a subsequent smooth local transformation to the Urnfield culture (1200–800 BCE). The southern region became dominated by the Hilversum culture (1800–800 BCE), which apparently inherited the previous Barbed Wire Beaker cultural ties with Britain.

From 800 BCE onward, the southern area was influenced by the Celtic or proto-Celtic Hallstatt culture. The current view in the Netherlands holds that subsequent Iron Age innovations did not involve substantial Celtic intrusions but featured a local development from Bronze Age culture.

From 750-600 BCE, areas formerly occupied by the Elp culture emerged as the probably-Germanic Harpstedt culture west of the Germanic Jastorf culture, and the southern parts became assimilated to the Celtic La Tène culture, as is consistent with Julius Caesar's account of the Rhine forming the boundary between Celtic and Germanic tribes.

Later, the Roman retreat resulted in the disappearance of imported products like ceramics and coins and a return to virtually-unchanged local Iron Age production methods. To the north, people continued to live in the same three-aisled farmhouse, and to the east, completely-new types of buildings arose. More to the south, in Belgium, archaeological results of the period point to immigration from the north.

Roman era
With the onset of historical records (Tacitus, 1st century), the area was generally called the border region between Celtic (Gaulish) and Germanic influence.

Tribes located in the area include the Batavians, Belgae, Chatti, Hermunduri, Cheruscii, Salii, Sicambri, Tencteri and Usipetes or Usipii. Caesar took the course of the Rhine to be the boundary between Gauls and Germans (Germanic people) but also mentioned that a large part of the Belgae had ancestry from east of the Rhine and that one part were even known collectively as "Germani" (the so-called "Germani cisrhenani"). The Belgae were therefore considered Gaulish (the Usipetes Germanic etc.) because of their position with respect to the Rhine, and not in the modern linguistic sense of the terms.

Some of those tribes would later join the Frankish confederation.

title: Nordwestblock


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Power Metal (album)

Power Metal is the fourth studio album by American heavy metal band Pantera, released on June 24, 1988, through Metal Magic Records. It is the first Pantera album to feature Phil Anselmo on lead vocals, as part of Pantera's best-known lineup which would last until the band's breakup in 2003.

The album signals a shift in a heavier direction and has been described as a "bridge" between the band's original glam metal style and the heavier groove metal sound of their subsequent work. It contains influences from speed and thrash metal while still retaining elements from the band's previous releases. The sound of the album has often been compared to that of Judas Priest, in particular Anselmo's vocals to that of Rob Halford.

Background
In October 1985, Pantera released I Am the Night, the last album with Terry Glaze on vocals. However, in June 1986, tensions arose between Glaze and the band members. He was given a two-week notice, which they hoped would resolve the tension, but abruptly parted ways after that. The band was set to play in Los Angeles on July 24–25, 1986, so they held auditions for a replacement singer. Numerous singers auditioned, most notable Matt L'Amour, Rick Mythiasin, and David Peacock, who all had short tenures with the band until October 1986. At that time, Pantera had started most of the time writing and working on the songs with all of the three short-lived singers as well as Glaze, but only drum, guitar and bass tracks were filled in entirely. Still desperate for a singer that would fit the group's intended heavier style, New Orleans native Phil Anselmo, who the band had met on the road, stepped in to record the album, marking his first appearance with the band. The earliest known tour date with Anselmo on vocals was on November 25, 1986, in Fort Worth, Texas. This would be the band's best-known lineup until their dissolution in November 2003.

Writing
"Proud to Be Loud" was written and produced by Keel guitarist Marc Ferrari and was originally intended to appear on their 1987 self-titled album; however, Keel would not record their own version until Keel VI: Back in Action in 1998. Pantera's version was used as the party song in the theatrical cut of the 2001 film Donnie Darko, credited to "The Dead Green Mummies".

Glaze had originally written some of the band's lyrics but Anselmo changed most of them except "Down Below", with an earlier recording of the song appearing on Pantera's third album I Am the Night (1985) crediting Glaze.

Release and promotion
As the record was close to being finished with Anselmo on the vocals, the band was brought in with a contract with Gold Mountain Records, one of the distributors with MCA, primarily based on the band's relationship with Marc Ferrari on Keel. Gold Mountain Records executive Danny Goldberg felt that the record was "too heavy". Drummer Vinnie Paul stated that the label wanted to "change our style and make us sound like Bon Jovi" which the band refused. As a result, the band was forced to release the album through Metal Magic.

Power Metal was released in the United States on June 24, 1988. As expected beyond limited promotion and the absence of a major label, the album did not chart. The band wrote new material and recorded demos around early 1989 that would later be included in their first major studio album, Cowboys from Hell, on July 24, 1990.

In a Blabbermouth interview with Phil Anselmo in 2013, when asked about possibly reissuing the album, he replied:""No, I've never thought about that. As far as catalogues or re-releases and whatnot, I'm not against it. I think it's an interesting thing to bring up. Matter of fact, I think you're the first guy to ever really ask if that was going to be a re-release, so thumbs up for you. Honestly, if people got past the image and whatnot of the bar-band hair bullshit that was going on in the late '80s, you would pretty much realize that it's a pretty solid metal record all around in the vein of Judas Priest ...""

In a UK Eonmusic interview with Rex Brown in 2021, he stated that the band, including himself, was against reissuing the album, alongside the earlier albums with Glaze. Brown asserted that he did not "want to give any credit where it's fuckin' undue," referring to Glaze. The past four glam albums were not considered a part of their history, and do not appear on any digital streaming service, except the song "Proud to be Loud", was only distributed by Universal Music Group, due to its presence on movie titles.

Critical reception
In a retrospective review, Bradley Torreano at AllMusic awarded Power Metal 2.5 stars out of 5, noting it as being the culmination of the band's first four albums of hair metal. Torreano described it as "an interesting and transitional early effort from one of the most important metal bands of the '90s." He criticized the lyrics, remarking that they are "the biggest problem, showing none of the gutter poetry that [Phil] Anselmo would develop through time and instead reflecting a bland interest in all things 'rock'". He went on to highlight Dimebag Darrell's guitar work, calling it "one of the more charming elements of the band's early sound" and that "he was obviously a very talented guitarist even then".

Asking how Anselmo recalled the album's impressions, he said to Revolver:

"To say I'm proud of it, no, I'm not. But to say that we as a band were still trying discover who the fuck we were and what we could do, that's very evident. I did the best I could, and I think the songs were heavier overall, more attacking."

LA Weekly called it one of Pantera's best albums, "a solid album of 1980s speed metal".

Personnel
All credits adapted from the original CD.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Power Metal (album)


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title: Category:1201 deaths


text: User talk:81.134.176.178

title: User talk:81.134.176.178


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Natsuki Takaya

Natsuki Takaya (高屋 奈月) is a Japanese manga artist best known for creating the series Fruits Basket.

Takaya was born and raised in Tokyo, where she made her debut as a manga artist in 1992. Takaya had wanted to be a manga artist since first grade, when her sister started drawing.

Her manga series Fruits Basket, which debuted in 1998, became one of the best selling shōjo manga in North America. Fruits Basket has also been adapted into an anime series twice; the first, which premiered in 2001, aired as one season of twenty six episodes. The second, which premiered in 2019, consists of two seasons of twenty five episodes and the third season comprised 13 episodes and concluded in 2021.

In 2001, Takaya received the Kodansha Manga Award for shōjo manga for Fruits Basket. As revealed in a sidebar of Fruits Basket, Takaya broke her drawing arm after Fruits Basket volume six was published. She had to go into surgery, and as a result, had put Fruits Basket on a brief hiatus. Takaya made a full recovery, but complained that her handwriting had gotten uglier due to the surgery.

title: Natsuki Takaya


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title: Category:1207 deaths


text: Category:1207 births

title: Category:1207 births


text: Category:Virginia Beach, Virginia

title: Category:Virginia Beach, Virginia


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User talk:Joel Patrick

Welcome to the Wikipedia
Here are some links I thought useful:

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Feel free to contact me personally with any questions you might have. The Village pump is also a good place to go for quick answers to general questions. You can sign your name by typing 4 tildes, like this: ~.

Be Bold!

[[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 19:21, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Lodge Park
I've made a quick start on the Lodge Park page. More welcome!

Edratzer 23:10, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

title: User talk:Joel Patrick


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User talk:Glenlockhart

Hi Glen,

I was wondering if you are aware of the rules of posting here to this Wikipedia? Your posting to the article Indigo_4 seems to be mainly commercial in nature, pretty much a copy of the marketing material on Indigo 4's own website -- which is not encyclopedic. You may want to look at the article What_Wikipedia_is_not and decide if you really want to post this kind of material here.

Hope this helps. --Furchild 19:22, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:Glenlockhart


text: Category:1209 births

title: Category:1209 births


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Talk:James Joseph Magennis

Cleanup tag
Removed cleanup tag -- work has been done --mervyn 16:23, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Primary School
Magennis appears to have left primary school on 3 June 1935 at the age of 16. Perhaps we need to know his next school? Gavin Lisburn (talk) 02:13, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

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Schutzpolizei

The Schutzpolizei, or Schupo for short, is a uniform-wearing branch of the Landespolizei, the state (Land) level police of the states of Germany. Schutzpolizei literally means security or protection police, but it is best translated as protection police.

The Schutzpolizei has by far the largest number of personnel, is on duty 24 hours per day, and has the broadest range of duties. On patrol duty, mainly in vehicles, they keep their respective area under surveillance.

As in most other countries, the uniformed police in Germany are usually the first to arrive at the scene of an incident, whether it is a crime or an accident. They also take the initial action (Erster Angriff), even if the case is later handed over to investigators of the Kriminalpolizei (Criminal Investigation Police).

Schutzpolizei officers are also responsible for promoting public safety, crime prevention, criminal prosecution and traffic control.

title: Schutzpolizei


text: Category:1216 births

title: Category:1216 births


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Alekos Alavanos

Alexandros 'Alekos' Alavanos (Αλέξανδρος 'Αλέκος' Αλαβάνος; born 22 May 1950 in Athens) is a Greek politician, former member of the Hellenic Parliament and the European Parliament. From 2004 until 2008 he was president of the Coalition of the Left of Movements and Ecology, commonly known as Synaspismos. He was parliamentary leader of the wider Coalition of the Radical Left (SYRIZA).

Early life
Born on 22 May 1950 in Athens, Alavanos has been politically active since his youth. During the military dictatorship of 1967-1974, Alavanos participated in the student movement against the regime; as a result his military service deferment was revoked and he was briefly incarcerated in the EAT/ESA military prison.

Political career
He was elected to the European Parliament in 1981 with the Communist Party of Greece and again in 1989, 1994 and 1999 with Synaspismos.

In the 2004 Greek legislative election, Alavanos was elected MP in Athens. Since Nikos Konstantopoulos, his predecessor in Synaspismos' leadership, announced his intention not to be a candidate for another term, Alavanos announced his own candidacy for the office. The party congress elected him president on 12 December 2004.

In the 2007 Greek legislative election, running as leader of SYRIZA, which more than doubled its parliamentary seats, he was narrowly elected an MP in Heraklion, Crete.

On 27 November 2007, Alavanos announced that he would not apply for a renewal of his presidency of Synaspismos at its 5th party congress in February 2008, due to private reasons. He was replaced by Alexis Tsipras.

In February 2011 he left Synaspismos and founded the Front of Solidarity and Overthrow with other former members of Coalition of the Radical Left. Communist Organization of Greece, Internationalist Workers' Left, Movement for the United in Action Left and Anticapitalist Political Group joined the front, but they left it in 2012 due to political disputes.

He again founded a new political party in 2013, founding Plan B specifically to contest the 2014 European Parliament election in Greece. The party's platform is centered on exiting Greece from the eurozone.

Personal life
Alekos Alavanos is an economist. He is married to Aikaterini Charalambaki and is the father of two daughters.

title: Alekos Alavanos


text: Category:1223 deaths

title: Category:1223 deaths


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Talk:Pax Romana

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Older
Why was my article "What was life like during the Pax Romana deleted?" (Further detail please)

In fact for Jews these were the times of grave oppression, massacres and ultimate destruction of their state and culture and attempted erasure of their very existence when Romans even renamed the province of Judea using a name of half-forgotten long extinct enemies of Jews to re-name the land as Palestine.

Did you know that.. The Pax Romana only created a facade of happiness and peace, there was actually great fighting and discomfort, but the leaders covered it up. Such examples can still be seen today in many countries...

Pronunciation
How is Pax romana pronounced? Can we include this in the article, please.

 * /pæks/ romána Mallerd 12:23, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

 * No, it is /paks romána/ Str1977 (talk) 09:45, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Sources?
 * ——67.180.86.254 (talk) 00:01, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Usage of B.C.A and B.C
I noticed that somebody still change the year such as B.C.A and B.C. Would somebody please clarify the years? Thanks. Daniel's page   ☎  07:27, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I think you meant BCE (Before Common Era) and BC (Before Christ). Both are acceptable and interchangeable in Wikipedia, as are CE (Common Era) and AD (Anno Domini - Year of our Lord). Personally, I prefer the secular naming convetion over the traditional one, and use it when I'm writing or contributing. You'll find both on the site, though. -- Gaius Octavius | Talk 16:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm all for changing it to BCE and CE from BC and AD. -Pnkrockr 17:43, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

"Personally, I prefer the secular naming convetion over the traditional one" Ridiculous, you must be a member of the ACLU.

 * Is it possible to use both terms when referring to Before Christ and Anno Dommini.

I'm old school, but mostly old, and had no idea what in the sam hill this CE stuff meant. The writers totally lost me. 0159 24 Nov 2008 EST

Rename page
I propose renaming the article due to a name clash with Pax Romana ICMICA/MIIC http://www.paxromana.org/

Pax Romana the historical period currently has no sources. What is its significance? Pax Romana the organisation is a longstanding active organisation. SmokeyJoe 00:57, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Pax Romana
Was it actually a real policy or was the tranquility pure coincidence? Mallerd 13:12, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It is modern, disputed term that is retroactively applied. I wonder who came with it.Hoshidoshi 17:50, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
 * "Pax Romana" is an idea first presented by Edward Gibbon in the first chapter of The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

If it is disputed, can you tell in what way please? Mallerd 16:17, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Points of dispute clearly are:
 * Whether the Empire intentionally pursued a policy of "moderation" or whether this was due to outside factors. It is especially questionable to put the recalling of various generals in a light of "moderation". More often this was due to Emperor mistrusting these generals.
 * Wars were not absent from the Pax Romana period. As the article notes, Trajan conquered Mesopotamia. Later, Marcus Aurelius tried to conquer what today is Czechia.
 * What's even more dubious is Gibbon placing the end in 180. That year actually marked the beginnin of peace as Commodus ended his father's war of conquest and concluded a peace (and was much criticized for it). Just because Aurelius is the philosopher and Commodus the monster doesn't make ther former reign one of peace or the latter one full of war.
 * Str1977 (talk) 09:57, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I understand, thank you very much Mallerd (talk) 23:23, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire is available a free ebook on eBooks@Adelaide including the first chapter referred to above. It does seem as though Gibbon described the concept here, but note that he does not use the term "Pax Romona". According to the online OED the earliest reference in English is from Fraser's Magazine "1853 Fraser's Mag. Mar. 291/1 Within its ample circumference [sc. the Roman world] the Pax Romana abode securely." laurens (talk) 13:23, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Pax Americana
In this article, "Pax Americana" is described as having ended in 2001. In the Pax Americana article there is no mention of its end. The "2001" should be removed unless good reason is given. TornVictor 11:44, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 9/11? Arch O. La  Grigory Deepdelver  18:41, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Missing text?
There seems to be missing text from this article. E.g. a paragraph ending with "However," etc. Is it vandalism, or is this article merely under construction? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.83.113.36 (talk) 19:05, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * No, just sloppy editing: . Arch O. La  Grigory Deepdelver  19:15, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

PAX Bostonia
Considering the variations of Latin peacetime phrases over the centuries is there room for a sports-oriented PAX Bostonia since the Boston sports scene has ascended to such dominant tranquility with all 5 pro teams reaching the playoffs or winning their titles: Bruins, Celtics, Patriots, Red Sox & Revolution, with only the Bruins not quite reaching the championship game. Additionally, Boston College Football ranked #2 last fall and BC Hockey won the NCAA Frozen Four. As far as I know, at no time in the history of this planet has one city's athletics been so dominant. With so much success is it time for Bostonians to recognize this era of PAX Bostonia?

SupahFans (talk) 04:07, 11 July 2008 (UTC)Kevin@SupahFans.com

Similar Terms
I removed the section we have a box thingy called "List of periods of regional peace", which is included at the bottom of the page, and encompasses more terms than the section did.
 * ——67.180.86.254 (talk) 00:06, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

"As an example, the German Empire's imperial peace of 1871 (over its internal components like Saxony) slowly evolved into the later German state. " what is that supposed to mean? the german state was founded in 1871. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.41.128.68 (talk) 13:21, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Pax Soprana?
I love The Sopranos as much as the next guy, and I hesitate to delete content that is not wrong. But when Pax (Paxi? Paces?) Americana, Britannica, Hispanica, Mongolica, Ottomana and Sinica make do with a link, is a detailed description of the marginally relevant 'Pax Soprana' really necessary?DaveDaytona (talk) 21:19, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

 * Is an episode of a TV drama really comparable to centuries of (supposed) peace of entire nations? I propose to delete the entire 'popular culture' section.  Stepho   (talk) 05:10, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

 * I agree. This is not really relevant in any way for the topic of this article. Especially not with such a detailed summary. --Saddhiyama (talk) 08:49, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Beginning of Pax Romana?
The article says that the exact dates of Pax Romana are a matter of discussion, with beginning dates ranging from hundreds of years BC to almost the end of the 1st century AD. This seems reasonable. In the next paragraph, it announces: "The Pax Romana started after Octavian (Augustus) met and defeated Mark Antony in the Battle of Actium on 2 September 31 BCE." I have marked this as "citation needed." I think it should be removed and replaced with something that doesn't offer any unjustified conclusions about exactly when Pax Romana began. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.170.197.35 (talk) 09:24, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

The source from Walter Goffart doesn't actually say that the beginning of the Pax Roman was 70 AD, it just says that the Cambridge Ancient History chose that date for a break between volumes in their series. I don't believe anyone would question that the period characterized as the 'Roman Peace' (or as Eckstein says, the 'standard textbook dates') began with Augustus, and was an important aspect of his imperial propaganda. JerryRussell (talk) 17:38, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

The dates for Pax Romana are shown as 27 BC to 180 AD and those dates differ depending on the source you check. In "Worlds Together Worlds Apart" the start and end dates for the Pax Romana was 25 BCE to 235 CE. I still see that there is a conflicting date between the Pax Romana start and end dates from the beginning of the article to the section that talks about its start in 31 BC after Octavian defeated Mark Anthony and Cleopatra. This article is part of many WikiProjects. The article was rated as "start-class" on the quality scale for WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome, WikiProject History, WikiProject Rome, WikiProject International Relations and WikiProject Politics. WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome rated the article as "high-importance", WikiProject History and WikiProject Rome rated the article as "top-importance" and WikiProject International Relations and WikiProject Politics have not yet rated the article on the importance scale. William.flood (talk) 04:36, 8 November 2017 (UTC)William.flood

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Opening sentance and meaning of "peace"
Hi, the user Barjimoa has just replaced the now re-established sentance with the following:"The Pax Romana (Latin for "Roman Peace") is a roughly 200-year-long period in Roman history which is identified with the absence of civil wars, with the exception of the year of four emperors."

I undid the edit because it does not contradict or change the previous statement other than narrowing it down to one event.

I guess this change and the introducing sentance are about the nature and scope of "pax", and if the first sentance should reflect that.

For the record I think the available information in the arricle and on wikipedia alone provides that this time was as diverse as the current sentance attempts to say.

That said there might be a better sentance to express this. Nsae Comp (talk) 23:37, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

"In fiction" section
All of these are unreferenced, so I suggest we nuke the section. If there are no objections, I'll get back to it in a few days.

 * Isaac Asimov's fictional Galactic Empire and Foundation series refers to Pax Trantoria and Pax Imperium.
 * Pax Soprana is the sixth episode of the HBO original series The Sopranos.
 * In Magi: The Labyrinth of Magic, Reim's Peace is the Reim Empire's version of Pax Romana, established about 200 years prior to the events of the series by Empress Scheherazade. Reim is a nation based on the Roman Empire.
 * In the Street Fighter movie, antagonist M. Bison's ultimate goal is to unite the world "under the grip of Pax Bisonica".
 * In Fallout: New Vegas, Caesar aims to use his Roman-style army to create a new Pax Romana across the Mojave Wasteland.
 * First episode of season 4 of Gotham is known as "Pax Penguina".

Thanks. byteflush Talk 02:20, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

 * As per my edit summary, I actually decided to just go WP:BOLD with this. If there are any objections, please raise them here. byteflush Talk 02:24, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

History
T 42.110.228.133 (talk) 16:24, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Pax Romana


text:
Talk:Dirty Dancing

Box office
The "Box Office" stats say it made "213,954,274 million dollars in worldwide boxoffice totals." That's a pretty big number, right there...especially a film marketed to young girls that includes an abortion. How much of the film's success is like Titanic where girls used babysitting money to see the film multiple times? Does anyone have a satistic on "rewatching" Cr8tiv April 10 12:03

hey... I'm not going to change anything because I'm ignorant on this subject, but the tagline on the picture it says "have the time of your life again", not "have the time of your life". It sounds like someone's got something wrong, but... What do I know? Gubby 11:19, 10 October 2005 (UTC) The "again" is because the cover is from the re-release, I think. Kel123

The term: "Dirty Dancing"
I think that dirty dancing is also a form of very sexually arousing dancing between couples that takes place in clubs and dance halls etc. If you agree, should separate reference be made to this in the article? --213.1.15.127 01:07, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * If you can provide a reliable source per Verifiability policy. `'mikka 01:22, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Once upon a time I read an interview in which they mention that the film had no title when it was filming and "Dirty Dancing" started as a joke and stuck. Can't find the stupid thing anymore. - Richfife (talk) 21:15, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Importance in movie history
Should disproven rumors be included in this? Jennifer Grey and Patrick Swayze got along really well. Many of the more memorable scenes like the famous "Mickey and Sylvia" scene were improv scenes. They wouldn't have even existed if the two didn't work so well together. In fact they already knew each other from working well together on Red Dawn. I'd write more about this movie if someone would point me to how I reference a movie. I have both the original DVD release and the new 20th anniversary version (which has a much better transfer by the way [finally!]). Khadgar 00:54, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't worry too much about how to reference, just go ahead and add information, and other editors will help with the formatting, per WP:CITE. --Elonka 00:55, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * According to the documentary by The E! True Hollywood Story, Swayze and Grey did work together on Red Dawn, but did not get along at all. When Grey heard that Swayze might be cast for Dirty Dancing, she was opposed to the idea.  But they got together in the makeup trailer and had a teary heart-to-heart, and figured out how to get past things.  Then, according to both producer/writer Eleanor Bergstein and Patrick Swayze, when Grey and Swayze did their dancing screentest, it was "breathtaking."  Swayze described it something like, "We looked around, and all of the crew were standing there with their jaws dropped."  He also said that Grey was the first time in his life, aside from his wife, that he really realized how two people could have chemistry together.  Their teamwork went well during the first part of shooting, but towards the end as the stress built (along with the weather problems and bugs), they began having some serious friction.  But they were both professionals and continued with the scenes.  In one of the bed scenes, Grey had just been stung by a wasp immediately before the scene, but carried on as though she didn't feel it. I'm not sure how much of this detail needs to go into the article though! --Elonka 20:23, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Featured status
So, in August 2007 will be the 20-year anniversary of this film. With a bit of work, we might be able to get this article to featured status by that point, to have it appear on the Wikipedia mainpage. Anyone interested in working towards that goal? :) --Elonka 00:55, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Steps towards featured status will be:
 * Expansion in accordance with WikiProject Films/Style guidelines (currently in process, feel free to help!)
 * Requesting an assessment at WikiProject Films
 * Requesting a peer review at WikiProject Films
 * Nominating for Good Article status (promoted June 30, 2007)
 * Nominating for Featured Article status
 * Requesting a date at Today's featured article/requests (I recommend August 21, 2007)
 * FYI, Elonka 20:57, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Automated peer review
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question. You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Elonka 05:50, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at Lead. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.[?]
 * Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.[?]
 * See if possible if there is a free use image that can go on the top right corner of this article.[?]
 * Per Wikipedia:Context and Build the web, years with full dates should be linked; for example, link January 15, 2006.[?]
 * Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
 * Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “ All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.”
 * Avoid using contractions like (outside of quotations): weren't, couldn't.
 * Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.[?]

GA on hold
Nice work so far, but the following is bothersome:
 * 1) Why are the cast names in the Plot?
 * The cast names are in the plot, to help identify the characters. I've seen other films do it this way, and I like the style, but it's not a major issue. If they're the only thing holding back from GA, I can remove them, but I personally think that the section is easier to read with the names. --Elonka 05:20, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * There are existing GAs with this style, so that certainly shouldn't prevent this article from reaching that status. The JPS talk to me  16:59, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) "After the movie" should be renamed Legacy, and the first paragraph is uncited.
 * Renamed to "Post-release," and cited --Elonka 05:20, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) The pop culture is trivial. Perhaps it should be deleted and the notable part of inspiring a video game be intergrated. Alientraveller 10:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, and done. Thanks for the review, if you have any other questions or concerns, please let me know! :) --Elonka 05:20, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Well despite the fact the article isn't quite how I would structure it, fair enough, cracking job, worthy of the green medal. Alientraveller 19:54, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Citation/ Web Link
The reception sections contains the following quote and citations:

The film's popularity has also caused it to be called "the Star Wars for girls."[3][14]

The phrase "Star Wars for girls" was first published by a writer called Nick Alaway around the turn of the millennium at www.fast-rewind.com/ddance.htm (which has always featured prominently in google search results). This is easily verifiable by the The Internet Archive (Cannot include link as site appears to be down ATM)

I propose that the journalists took their quote from this site and that this citation be added/corrected and that a link to this long standing, non-commercial site be added. I had tried to do this but my edits were summararily deleted by editor "lndon" What does everyone think? please ignore -now done ThanksFanpot 08:37, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

The link attached to "Mountain Lake Hotel" goes instead to the article on Mountain Lake, which is an entirely different place (the hotel is near Roanoke; the linked lake is near Norfolk and not in any way associated with the hotel used in the film). The link should be removed. (Bill Kemp). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.163.66.192 (talk) 16:20, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Goosebump-inducing
I see that someone is trying to tone down the "goosebump" language in the lead, but I feel that it's well-sourced, by two major and reliable sources, the BBC and the Guardian:

 * For them, that infamous line is the climax of 97 minutes of pure celluloid gold and signals the start of what is widely considered the most goose bump-inducing dance scene in movie history.

 * "Baby falls out with and is then reconciled with her adored father, and the film finishes with what is to many minds the greatest, most goosebump-inducing dance finale of our times."

Accordingly, I have put the language back in. If anyone disagrees, please feel free to offer comments here. --Elonka 16:20, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Tweaks
Elonka asked me to look this over, and I went through and did some prose tweaks. I also had some other concerns/questions/suggestions, which I'm listing here: Details: Hope this helps a bit. Ealdgyth | Talk 01:47, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Pre-production section, first paragraph. "The vice-president Mitchell Cannold liked the story, as he too had spent some of his own childhood in the Catskills, and he and VP Dori Berinstein..." no good explanation of what VP means in this context.
 * Fixed. --Elonka 11:54, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Same section and paragraph, the introduction of the "... provided a new director was found for the project." clause is confusing as (unless I missed it) no director has been mentioned (producer yes, writer yes, no director that I see.)
 * Fixed. --Elonka 11:54, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I cut "great" before Gene Kelly. Personally, if you're going to use opinion, I'd go with "legendary" but it's probably a peacock term and shouldn't be used either.
 * The sentence just looked naked without a qualifier, so I added "legendary". :)  If it's a big deal though, let me know and I'll pull it. --Elonka 11:54, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Same section, third paragraph. "The next choice was 34-year-old Patrick Swayze, who had been noticed in his roles in ..." the "who had been noticed in his roles.." just seems clunky to me. Maybe " Swayze, noted for his roles..."? or at the very least "who had been noticed for his roles..."
 * Tweaked. --Elonka 11:54, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Was Joel Gray cast as Mr. Schumacher? If so, you need to say that apart from the bit about Dr. Ruth backing out. As it is written, it leaves it unclear if he was or was not cast.
 * Fixed. --Elonka 11:54, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, in the Filming section, first paragraph. The last sentence is unclear. What exactly is meant by "contact"?
 * Expanded. --Elonka 11:54, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Post-production. First paragraph, was the May 1987 screening of the rough-cut mentioned in the sentence before? Or had there been more put together? This section is extremely skimpy on details, such as the time that rough-cut was put together, etc. Consider fleshing this out some.
 * I'm not sure what to do with this one. Of the sources that I have available, they don't give a lot more info. They tend to repeat the "Burn the negative" story. I'm not aware of any sources with that date, though if one becomes available, I'll definitely add the information. --Elonka 11:54, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Same section, second paragraph, the whole Clearasil bit comes out of the blue with not context at all for it being included. Consider fleshing this part out also. As it stands, it's very jarring to the reader.
 * Expanded a bit. --Elonka 11:54, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Reception section, the "Dirty Dancing Rocks to an Innocent Beat" quote needs a citation attached to it.
 * The citation is actually there at the end of the next sentence, which is about the same article. --Elonka 11:54, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Music section, first paragraph. Any reason we have a pronuciation of a redlinked guys last name in the Music section?
 * I went ahead and created a stub for him, and moved the pronunciation there. :) --Elonka 11:54, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Same section and paragraph. What was Ienner chosen to do?
 * Expanded. --Elonka 11:54, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Same section and paragraph. Consider cutting the actors listed from "... 1984 film Grandview USA with Jamie Lee Curtis and C. Thomas Howell." as they really add nothing to the context.
 * Done. --Elonka 11:54, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Legacy section, first paragraph. "It was bought out in Jan 1991 .." Who was bought out? Vestron or the parent company? Context is unclear here.
 * Fixed. --Elonka 11:54, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

 * It helps a lot, thanks! Let me know if you'd like any other clarifications, Elonka 11:54, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Vestron's investors and the soundtrack
I don't have a citable source, but perhaps someone can suggest good search terms to find one in a database ... my parents were Vestron investors for this movie and I distinctly remember that they said the company unfortunately had sold off the rights to the soundtrack before the film came out, and that the picture itself ended up a financial loss for investors because of this mistake. That would have been as of 1988-ish, so it may not take into account any money made by people who held on (?) to the point that it got more international. Unless I missed it, there appears to be no mention in the article of Vestron not having a cut of the fortune that the soundtrack earned, and when I think of what search terms to try, I come up with "Vestron" "Dirty Dancing" "investors" "soundtrack" -- which it seems to me would not return news articles so much as listings of the DVD or CD. Thoughts? Lawikitejana (talk) 18:04, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * That's some great information and I'd love to include it in the article, but you're absolutely right that we'd need a source. I find it hard to believe though that the picture itself was a financial loss, considering how much it pulled in. It is possible that Vestron might not have gone under if they'd kept the music rights though. I'll poke around in some of the library databases and see what I can find. --Elonka 04:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Why the sources should be improved
There's been a bit of a discussion on my talk page, that would probably be more useful here. I was asked to do some copy-editing, and started to do so, before seeing that the problem with this article isn't really the prose (though that could indeed be significantly improved) than with the sourcing. Judging from Elonka's comments, she's not keen on doing much about the references, saying that she's "chosen the most relevant sources [she] could find." So I'm putting this here, in case anybody else is willing to do the work, that's necessary before this becomes a serious candidate for FA status.

I said that "overall the article reads like a fansite," to which Elonka took some umbrage, but the comment was descriptive rather than evaluative. Morevoer, she would like more details: "How does it sound like a fansite? What section(s) need improvement? Which sentence(s) needs fixing? Or getting back to the sources, it would be helpful if you could say how sources could help the article? Is there a section that's weak and needs more information? Is the article too short? Too long? Is too much screen-space spent on a particular topic? Is there some concept that you were expecting to read about, that wasn't covered?"

Passing over for the moment the fact that this is not an FA review, or even that my previous comments would no doubt be enough for an FA review, here goes...

The article focuses precisely on the kinds of things beloved of fansites: biographical details of the writer, details of production, the relationship between the stars, "where they are now," public opinion surveys on favourite quotations or most-watched films, newspaper reviews, and above all an affective ("goosebumps") response to the film.

None of this is a surprise. Such are, indeed, the vast majority of film articles on Wikipedia, created by fans, and using only online sources, led astray by the one easily-available semi-academic source to hand (the conference paper on classical themes). It really doesn't help that the major source is an E! cable documentary! As such, and as a fairly competent example of the genre, this article probably deserves its "Good Article" label.

As it happens, however, this is a film that has been fairly extensively discussed in the critical literature on 1980s film and music. This could be a featured article, an example of "our very best work," if a bit of effort went into it.

Now, the precise effects on the article of doing that work would be unpredictable: you could only know once you'd read the sources. Above all, however, it would serve to contextualize the film: at present context is dealt with symptomatically only under the rubric of "pre-production" whereas "Legacy" (even after I took out some real trivia) remains on the order of "where are they now?"

OK, so let's have a quick look at some of those unused sources...

Serge Denisoff's Risky Business looks at the way in which the film pioneered a new relationship between film and soundtrack. His initial comparison is with Saturday Night Fever. But he also indicates the way in which musical difference in the film reflects and anticipated cultural differences. (NB think also of the film's context in the 1980s culture wars, even as it displaces them back to the 1960s. I suspect other critical literature looks at this, too.)  NB this source, like many others, essentially treats the film as a musical, suggesting a change already to the WP article's opening line, which stresses rather romance (affective, fan response, again). Indeed, it looks at how the film helped to revive the genre of the "dance musical," again alongside others such as Saturday Night Fever. And it looks at the way in which the dance musical is thereby transformed in new cultural circumstances. The book also focusses on the gender difference in the film's reception (a fact that is hidden in the WP article's first footnote, and in fact elided in the lead). It also suggests the film's importance in the growth of the still-nascent video (which is indicated in the WP article, but in terms of trivia, rather than as part of a serious discussion)

The Rheindorff article also stresses the way in which the film deals with conflict: both representing it and defusing it at the same time. (Again, no doubt, the displacement to an idealized version of the past is no doubt crucial, but something that is accepted rather than questioned by fans.) He points out that "film as a conventionalised mode of representation tends to reduce almost any sot of social conflict--and in particular conflicts of class, race, and gender--from a global to an individual level. [. . .]  Thus, film can stage but also resolve class conflicts on an individual level, leaving the underlying social structure of its fictional world not only intact, but effectively unchallenged" (139). It looks as dance as a mode "that allows for an apparent dissolution of boundaries on the dance-floor, a space that (like the sports-ground) is often conceived of in popular imagination as transgressing all class boundaries."

I was going to go through a few more of the sources (or rather, the snippets I can see on Google books), but I think already looking at one and (not even) a half of a source begins to give some idea of how this article could and should be transformed before it becomes an instance of our very best work on Wikipedia. It's not much to do with copy-editing, to be sure, though I have now repeatedly volunteered to do such copy-editing when the article itself is properly sourced and in decent shape.

But in short, the sources should be improved because poor sources make for poor articles. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 22:47, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

NB I'd be happy to come back to this at the weekend, and work on adding some of these sources. Though I won't have time to do very much. --04:53, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

 * Don't forget the secondary source for the undeniable fact that, as the article says, "Dirty Dancing" is similar to The Odyssey. Tempshill (talk) 16:01, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Questionable screenshot
I am not sure if Image:Dirty-dancing-corner.jpg has a sufficient fair use rationale. I hate to be a stickler, but I do not think that a non-free image of the scene in which the quote is uttered significantly increases readers' understanding. The better alternative is to provide descriptive text -- the quote itself. There is nothing that the reader can perceive in the scene that would really help the context. Is the full quote what is notable? Perhaps Quote box or Cquote could be used. — Erik (talk • contrib) - 17:18, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. – sgeureka t•c 19:38, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

"One of the most-watched films"
I'm removing this line. The source says that Dirty Dancing is one of the films "[surveyed women] most love to watch over and over again", not one of the most watched films in any global sense as the line leads one to believe.24.14.156.34 (talk) 06:03, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Budget: $5 million or $6 million?
For most readers, this issue will be very minor but it's been on my mind for a while. The New York Times reported in a December 9, 1987 article: "A year ago last summer, Bob Feiden, a pop talent scout and consultant to RCA Records, read the script for a movie called Dirty Dancing. Set in the Catskills in 1963, the film, budgeted at under $6 million, was to be the first feature entirely originated by Vestron Pictures, the home video company that had recently decided to branch out into movie production." Box Office Mojo and IMDB also confirm that the budget was US$ 6 million. United Press International, Business Week, and a couple of other newspapers say "less than $6 million". We currently cite $5 million based on one newspaper article. Can we please change it to $6 million? Are there any objections to the change, please let me know. Thanks, J Readings (talk) 08:03, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Category:Biographical_films ?
Not sure if this fits there ? + DD2 ? --195.137.93.171 (talk) 14:58, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

 * This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Dirty Dancing/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

GA Sweeps: Pass
As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the GA criteria. I went through the article and made various changes, please look them over. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. Altogether the article is well-written and is still in great shape after its passing in 2007. Continue to improve the article making sure all new information is properly sourced and neutral. It may be beneficial to look for any updates, or see if there were any more recent stories in the news. I would also recommend updating the access dates of the sources. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have updated the article history to reflect this review. --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 (talk • contrib) 02:38, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Excoriating
Really?!? couldn't come up with a more common word or phrase to mean the same thing - like - I dunno -- severely criticizing?! Pretentious snots.

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cash given to waiter sex addict?
Near the end, it looks like cash was given, not a recommendation letter.

Samswik (talk) 07:01, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Dr. Houseman does give the waiter, Robbie, a recommendation letter for Yale Medical School. But he quickly takes it back once he realizes that Robbie was the one who impregnated and abandoned Penny. GaryBuseysTeeth (talk) 15:11, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Baby having sex
There's no evidence she had sex, could have been no sex act so plot should reflect that. Samswik (talk) 07:01, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Maybe. I'll re-watch the scene and see what I think. Adding a concealed note is not helpful, however, and the content of the note ("previous version said sex but didn't show any sex and could have been dry humping") seems ridiculous. As far as other matters are concerned, I was not obliged to discuss your edits before reverting them, did not abuse Twinkle in any way (using Twinkle to revert an edit does not imply that it is vandalism), and your edits to the plot section were in general not improvements. Adding the word "several" before "other female guests" is not necessary, adding the words "except that it is not for anything illegal" after "Jake agrees to give the money to Baby even though she says she can't tell him what it's for" is not constructive, and assorted comments about what is "possibly" or "probably" happening in a scene make the plot section digressive and lower its quality; a properly written plot section simply does not contain that sort of thing. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 08:24, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the hidden note was not very useful - and since this is a Good Article, it must contain no original research or speculation. Well, no article should, of course, but it is part of the GA criteria. MOS:PLOT states that "Plot summaries cannot engage in interpretation and should only present an obvious recap of the work" (original boldface). Or, in other words, what you said :-) --bonadea contributions talk 09:26, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Antisemitic?
If a gentile person had wrote dirty dancing most jews would have said that it was anti-Semitic for it's portrayal of jews. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.161.200.5 (talk) 04:53, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

 * Well, this is nonsense. It it's cirital of higher classes who tread lower classes badly. The books' author is Jewish and told part of her childhood. Saemikneu (talk) 18:05, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Dirty Dancing
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Dirty Dancing's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "metacritic": From Dirty Dancing (2017 film):  From Gilmore Girls:

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 14:47, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Dirty Dancing


text:
User:Furchild

My name is David Eisenstein, and I am from the midwest United States.

Here is my Fedora Project user page. Furchild 02:15, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

 * /Sandbox

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title: User:Furchild


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Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/CheeseDreams/Evidence

Could someone provide a concise summary of the one or two most important charges against CheeseDreams? I've been having a look, and find it difficult to wade through all the detail.

Quite a few of the specific charges seem minor, for example the "personal attacks" don't seem particularly personal. I see no evidence presented on Snowspinner's charge of "POV warrioring". There's no doubt that CheeseDreams has displayed a poor wikiquette. But, the handful of edits I've looked at do not seem terribly outrageous. Filing a handful of RFC's hardly seems like a punishable offense.

The main policy violation I've noticed is violations of the 3 revert rule. That seems moot, since that's now a blockable offense for future violations. I imagine I'm not alone in trying to sift the key allegations from the rather lengthy discussion here and on the various RFC's. Are there one or two really outrageous things CheeseDreams has done, or is the case more of a cumulative frustration one? Wolfman 19:34, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Well, the format of ArbCom evidence pages militates against concise and meaningful summaries in favor of lengthy citations of edit histories. For instance, I just want to cite the entire Cultural and historical background of Jesus nonsense as a whole (especially the talk page and archives).  I think this mess illustrates the problems with CheeseDreams - an utter unwillingness to compromise, constant accusations that people who disagree with her are part of a "fundamentalist cabal," constant shouting and repetition of the same points no matter what the argument presented against CheeseDreams' views is at this particular time, the absurd insistence that the article's title precluded any discussion of Jesus, the enormous POV summaries of earlier discussions that she insisted on placing at the top of the talk page, the accusations that anyone who looked at the talk page as a result of Slrubinstein putting notices on our talk pages were not valid participants in the discussion, the insistence when progress was actually being made towards some sort of compromise by other participants in the discussion that all this talking about how to make the article better was getting us nowhere, followed by the insistence that instead we needed to each work on a separate version of the article.  Further, the mess with Jesus in a cultural and historical background and Historical reconstruction of the sort of person Jesus would be, into which articles CheeseDreams copied the entire contents of the protected version of Cultural and historical background of Jesus.  I cannot think of any incident on Wikipedia that has been less pleasant than this one, and I've frequently been involved in horrific Polish/German place name disputes. I'd love to make a concise and clear summary of this on the evidence page, but the evidence page is so antiseptic and abstracted that I have no real clear idea of how to do this. john k 23:26, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * I agree with everything JohnK says. To be blunt, this is not a case of CheeseDreams' having violated a rule, or any one instance of bannable behavior.  As a matter of fact, the problem with CheeseDreams is invisible, if youa re looking at specific acts.  At issue is not one tree, but the forest -- a pattern of disruptive behavior that largely involves misconstruing NPOV, and a way of interacting with others on talk pages that makes constructive discussion impossible.  To John's list, though I would add CheeseDreams' actions from 1-8 December  in which she summarized a complex debate and then sought to replace the actual debate with her summary (in the process, obscuring complex points), one consequence of which was to make the talk page innnccccrrrreeeedddddibbbbbllllyyyyyyyyy long.  I would archive the summary; she would put it back in the article.  We went back and forth doing this silly silly thing for a whole week.  It served no purpose to waste time -- and she just couldn't seem to accept the principle of archiving when a page was over 130 kb long! Slrubenstein

Some people cannot see the forest for the trees. Others cannot see the trees for the forest.

A select few, lucky, and beholden to none other, can see the counterpoint that binds them both. CheeseDreams 02:17, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Can someone from the AC tell me if this is valid evidence?
Please check -- there was no explanation on the talk page for why CheeseDreams disputes the neutrality and accuracy; also, since this is not an article but a userpage, it seems inappropriate. Generally, we shouldn't screw with other's userpages, right? Slrubenstein 21:29, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Note also that the dubious template puts in see talk page, when in fact I wrote the explanation inline in tags - as can be seen by the diff.
 * Personally, I think this has as much validity as the remainder of Slrubenstein's evidence. CheeseDreams 15:35, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Well, user pages are unprotected so that others can edit them (fix typos, add barnstars, fulfill to-do lists, whatever), but this seems like harassment to me. Cool Hand Luke  21:51, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * It's clear cut vandalism. She knows the purpose of those tags. But yes, it's harassment. It also shows that she doesn't like it when people point out issues with her articles. - Ta bu shi da yu 22:08, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

FT2's complaint
After reviewing CheeseDream's arguments against my work on the Cultural and Historical Background article, I summed up with this comment:
 * Forget her bias, forget her illogic, forget her inability to take criticism or to learn from others -- forget all these things and one truth remains: she is ignorant of this subject and has nothing to offer here. Slrubenstein 18:52, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Apparently, Dr. Zen and FT2 think this is evidence against me. That they might think so reveals something very strange going on at Wikipedia. I have made no personal attack or insult, I am simply reporting a fact. CheeseDreams has made so many arguments that have no basis whatsoever (although I have repeatedly provided the sources for my research, after almost two months CheeseDreams has yet to provide any scholarly sources), and has made so many claims that anyone knowledgeable about Judaism or Jewish history in late antiquity would find laughable on their face, it is clear that CheeseDreams is ignorant. Now, this is not only a legitimate observation -- it is an important and vital claim. If wikipedia is to succede, we have to have standards. Contributions have to be accurate and verifiable, and based on research. If we abandon these standards, then what is the point of it all? Slrubenstein 00:57, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

And to be crystal clear, I am not complaining that CheeseDreams is not an academic scholar. I do not believe anyone must be an academic scholar, certainly not to participate fully in editing an article. But non-academic scholars are just as capable of research as academic scholars. I do expect people to contribute to wikipedia based on what they know. Look, if CheeseDreams simply said "I do not understand this, can someone explain -- it would make the article clearer" of if she said "This sentence is too long, or ungrammatical, how about like this," or "Why not move this section over there?" I would welcome her input. But she consistently comments on content and then reveals that she actually is just bullshitting! This is my objection. After two months of dealing with her constant, continual, persistent attempts to change the content of the article to bullshit, yes, I unapologetically feel the article would be better off if she went away. It's not personal, it isn't about me or her, it is about the article. Slrubenstein 13:51, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * As I said in the original post on this matter, I dont see the problem as "one or the other". There's lessons on all sides.  Some of this could have been avoided by each of you. I get fed up of 2 people both claiming its the other's fault, to be honest. I'll return to the religious articles in a while when it's sorted out more, and people have worked out how to focus on the article and not on picking holes at each other in various ways. FT2 00:16, Dec 24, 2004 (UTC)

I am not saying I reject all of CheeseDream's work, I am only explaining why I reject what I have rejected. As to fault, I'd be curious to know what CheeseDreams thinks I did first, to antagonize her. More to the point -- FT2 quoted a comment above as if it is an example of something I did wrong. I continue to insist that the comment quoted above was the right thing to say at the time, and important for the project. Slrubenstein 01:15, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)


text:
Stockholm urban area

The Stockholm urban area (Stockholms tätort) is the largest and most populous of the statistical localities or urban areas in Sweden. It has no administrative function of its own, but constitutes a continuous built-up area, which extends into 11 municipalities in Stockholm County. It contains the municipal seats of 10 of those. As of 31 December 2019, the population in the Stockholm urban area was 1,593,426 inhabitants, the area 381.63 km2, and the population density 4,175 inhabitants/km2. Stockholm urban area is not the same as Metropolitan Stockholm (Storstockholm), which is a much larger area.

In 2019, the population of the urban area and the municipalities into which it extends, broken down per municipality was the following:

title: Stockholm urban area


text: Category:1237 deaths

title: Category:1237 deaths