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Gilberto Silva

Gilberto Aparecido da Silva (born 7 October 1976) is a Brazilian former professional footballer who played as a defensive midfielder, most notably for Brazilian side Atlético Mineiro and for English Premier League club Arsenal, as well as for the Brazil national team. He currently serves as an ambassador for both Arsenal and FIFA.

Born and raised in poverty in the Brazilian municipality of Lagoa da Prata, Gilberto joined the youth academy at local club América Mineiro, where he made his senior debut as a centre-back in 1998. After starring the following season, where he helped gain the club promotion into the Campeonato Brasileiro Série A, he joined city rivals Atlético Mineiro. During his time at Atlético, Gilberto transitioned into a defensive midfielder under head coach Carlos Alberto Parreira, and flourished in his new role, gaining a call-up to the Brazil national team for the 2002 FIFA World Cup, where he featured prominently as his country won the tournament.

As a result of his World Cup performances, Gilberto garnered a move to the Premier League to sign for Arsenal that summer for a fee of £4.5 million. During his six years at Arsenal, Gilberto gained a reputation as a world class defensive midfielder, and starred in a midfield duo alongside Patrick Vieira. He would feature as a member of the Invincibles, where he captured his first top-flight league title as his team went undefeated the whole season, as well as winning two FA Cups. Gilberto also holds distinct records at Arsenal, recording their first goal at the Emirates Stadium, as well as their fastest ever goal, scoring in 21 seconds from kickoff against PSV Eindhoven in the 2002–03 UEFA Champions League. After departing Arsenal, Gilberto relocated to Greece, playing for Panathinaikos, where he won a domestic double. He then returned to Brazil in 2011, signing for Grêmio, where he remained for two years, before returning to Atlético to win the 2013 Copa Libertadores prior to retiring.

Gilberto featured at senior level for much of his international career, representing Brazil over a period of 9 years. He enjoyed a period of sustained success with his country, as he featured prominently in their victorious campaign at the 2002 FIFA World Cup, as well as being a core component as the team also won the 2005 FIFA Confederations Cup, while also featuring as captain in their Copa América win in 2007. After retaining the Confederations Cup in 2009, Gilberto expressed his desire to prolong his club career, which coincided with limited playing time for Brazil. He retired from international football after the 2010 FIFA World Cup, having made 93 appearances for Brazil.

Early life
As a child, Gilberto lived in the city of Lagoa da Prata with his father (a blacksmith), his mother (a housewife) and three sisters. His family lived in a small house which his father built, in the district of Usina Luciânia. Despite financial hardship, causing his sisters and him to share a single room, he had a relatively carefree childhood: he describes it as "[a time when] I had no responsibility in my life, I played football on the street with cousins and friends, and we never had any contact with drugs or violence". In 1988 (aged 12), he got the chance to break out of poverty by playing football, joining América Mineiro as a youth player. It was during these years at América Mineiro that Gilberto was taught defensive discipline by playing as a central defender. When not playing football, Gilberto was taught furniture-making skills by his father, which he would come to use in the following years. In 1991, Gilberto's father retired leaving the 16-year-old to provide financially for his whole family, a task made more difficult by his mother's ill-health.

Because of the low wage at América Mineiro, he was forced to quit football to take various jobs as a labourer, a carpenter, and a worker in a sweet factory. It looked as if this would be the end of his childhood dream. As a factory-worker Gilberto earned the equivalent of about £50 a month by 2002 rates.

Early career
In 1997, Gilberto's friends convinced him to give football another try, which led to him re-signing for América Mineiro in 1997, this time as a full-time professional. Aged 22, Gilberto played as a central defender for the first team. During his first season for América Mineiro he was regarded as a key player by the club, despite being criticised by some fans for inconsistency. He helped them win the Série B division, and consequently gain promotion to Série A.

During Gilberto's third season at América Mineiro, with the team back to Série B after relegation in Série A in 1999, he scored three goals, helping the club reach the second stage where they were eliminated by Vila Nova in the quarterfinals. In 2000, aged 24, he joined rival club Atlético Mineiro. In his first season for the club, he fractured his right tibia and, as a result, missed a number of games. In his second season, he was moved by the manager Carlos Alberto Parreira from central defence to a defensive midfield role where he flourished. He scored three goals in the 2001 season and became a revelation in Brazilian club football.

Arsenal
Gilberto's performance in the 2002 FIFA World Cup caught the attention of many coaches. Gilberto expressed a desire to move to England, saying, "It would be fantastic to play against the likes of David Beckham again." As a result, FA Premier League clubs Aston Villa and Arsenal led the chase to sign him. In August, while still under contract to Atlético Mineiro, Gilberto joined Arsenal on their pre-season tour of Austria; while he had not yet signed for Arsenal the deal looked set to go ahead. However, complications arose when a transfer embargo was placed on Atlético Mineiro due to unpaid wages to some players at the club, including Gilberto. There was also an issue of obtaining a UK work permit for Gilberto. Despite the complications, Gilberto ended a summer of speculation and joined Arsenal on 7 August 2002 for a fee of £4.5 million. Upon signing Gilberto, Arsenal manager Arsène Wenger said, "What I like was the fact that he kept things simple. He can play all across the midfield but the holding role just in front of the defence is what he does best."

When Gilberto moved to England and began training with Arsenal, he bought a house in St Albans, South Hertfordshire. Having been used to life in small Brazilian towns, he initially struggled to adapt to the new way of life in London. However, on the pitch, he settled in very quickly. On 11 August 2002 he made his Arsenal debut as a substitute against Liverpool in the second half of the FA Community Shield game in which he scored the winning goal. As the 2002–03 FA Premier League season began, Gilberto faced stiff competition for a place in midfield from compatriot Edu. After two substitute appearances, Gilberto finally broke into the starting eleven on 27 August, helping Arsenal to a 5–2 win against West Bromwich Albion. Gilberto's good form continued as he set a new record for the fastest goal scored in the UEFA Champions League, scoring after 20.07 seconds against PSV on 25 September 2002.

2003–04 was an even better season for Gilberto, as he was instrumental in helping Arsenal win the Premier League title whilst going the entire season unbeaten. He played in 32 of Arsenal's 38 unbeaten Premier League games during the season. His next season started equally impressively, as he scored the first goal in Arsenal's 3–1 Community Shield win over Manchester United at the Millennium Stadium. During the opening games of the season, he started to experience severe pain in his back, and after a match at Bolton Wanderers on 27 September 2004, a scan revealed he had fractured his back. At first it was reported that he would be out of action for a month. Later reports suggested the injury could be season-threatening.

Gilberto's doctor ordered him to wear a back brace for three months to aid the healing of the fractured bone. Gilberto returned to his native Brazil for the duration of his rehabilitation. During his time there, he doubted whether he would ever be able to play football again, due to speculation that his injury could threaten his career. Despite his concerns, his long rehabilitation time paid off as he made a full recovery. He made his footballing comeback in Arsenal's 4–1 victory over Norwich City on 22 April 2005. During the whole 2004–05 season, Gilberto was injured for 7 months and played only 17 games. His absence, combined with Arsenal's slump in form at the time, led to much discussion regarding the importance of Gilberto to the Arsenal team; some suggesting that Arsenal struggled without him.

In June 2005, football agent Jacques Lichtenstein took Atlético Mineiro to court over Gilberto's transfer in 2002. Lichtenstein's lawyer argued that he and his informal partner, Ronny Rosenthal, never received an allegedly agreed 10% commission from Gilberto's £4.5 million transfer to Arsenal from Atlético Mineiro in July 2002. Arsène Wenger and Arsenal vice-chairman David Dein both gave evidence in court, saying that Arsenal dealt directly with Atlético Mineiro and that no agent was involved in the deal. The case was conducted before The Hon. Mr Justice Jack, who on 29 June ruled against Lichtenstein, and ordered the claimants pay Atletico Minéiro £94,000 in legal costs. A year later, the case could have caused problems for Arsenal, when former player Ashley Cole criticised the club for "hypocrisy and double standards" in the way they approached Gilberto.

With legal matters subsided, the 2005–06 season began. Following midfielder and team captain Patrick Vieira's departure from Arsenal, Gilberto became a senior member of the Arsenal team. Shortly into the season, in September 2005, his desire to see his career out with the club led to Gilberto extending his Arsenal contract to June 2009. A month later this loyalty was repaid when, on 18 October 2005, Gilberto made his first appearance for Arsenal as captain, against Sparta Prague. Although Gilberto had a period of bad form during the winter months of the season, his good defensive performances during the latter stages of the UEFA Champions League (in particular, games against Real Madrid, Juventus and Villarreal ) gained him praise. On 17 May 2006 Gilberto played for Arsenal in the UEFA Champions League Final against FC Barcelona, which Arsenal lost 2–1.

Following the departure of defender Sol Campbell and retirement of striker Dennis Bergkamp in the summer of 2006, Gilberto was announced as Arsenal's vice-captain for the 2006–07 season. He began the season well, as he scored the first ever goal at the Dutch DSB Stadion in a pre-season friendly match. He then scored Arsenal's first ever goal in a competitive match at the Emirates Stadium in a 1–1 draw with Aston Villa. His good form continued for Arsenal as he scored several league goals, garnering praise for his performances as stand-in captain while Thierry Henry was injured. Gilberto and his agent (Paulo Villana) also reiterated the player's desire to honour his contract with the Gunners. Meanwhile, Gilberto's good form carried through to the second half of the season. Even though Arsenal only managed to finish fourth in the league, he ended the season as Arsenal's second highest scorer with 10 Premier League goals. The explanation for his unusually high tally is the fact that Henry suffered two lengthy injury spells, in which Gilberto stepped up as captain to take penalties. Gilberto's goal scoring record combined with his own good form in midfield and his leadership of Wenger's youthful squad led some Arsenal fans and football pundits to label Gilberto as Arsenal's best player of the season, and one of the best in the Premier League. The buildup of the 2007–08 season saw Arsenal captain Thierry Henry leave the club to join Barcelona. This coupled with the fact that Gilberto was Arsenal's vice-captain during the 2006–07 season led many people to assume that Gilberto would take over Henry's role. However, to the surprise of Gilberto, William Gallas was given the captain's armband instead. In August, after returning to Arsenal's pre-season training late due to his involvement in the Copa América tournament (and thus missing the start of the season), Gilberto then lost his place in the first team to young midfielder Mathieu Flamini. This reignited speculation linking Gilberto to Italy due to rumours that he was unhappy being on the bench at Arsenal. However, reports that he was being snubbed at the club were dismissed by Wenger, who insisted that Gilberto would remain at Arsenal to fight for his place. Despite this, in October 2007, rumours in the press re-emerged that Gilberto was angry at Wenger for being asked to play in defence in a League Cup game against Sheffield United, and had resultantly refused to play. Gilberto ended up playing the game in midfield though, with he and Wenger both denying rumours of a rift with each other. Gilberto subsequently commented that while he was not happy being a substitute, he would remain professional and fight for his place at the club. Also in October, Gilberto ceded the Brazilian captaincy to Lúcio upon his compatriot's return from injury.

Through the winter months of the 2007–08 season, Gilberto started a limited number of games for the Gunners, though he kept his place in the Brazil team, starting several games for A Seleção. After becoming more and more frustrated with not playing regularly, Gilberto admitted in February 2008 that he had been made to feel "totally useless" by Wenger. Despite this, he declined to make a decision on his future; something which prompted Wenger to promise talks with Gilberto. Amidst Gilberto's frustration at Arsenal, he targeted playing in Brazil's Olympic team in Beijing during August 2008; a competition which he had never played in. Off the pitch, Gilberto was reported to have passed his UK Citizenship test, and that he would subsequently apply for a British passport. April saw Gilberto's season take a turn for the better; making 5 starts – a substantial portion of his seasonal total of 12 – even managing to score a goal. The goal came against Reading on 19 April, and despite its deflective nature leading to some classing it as a possible own goal, the Premier League's Dubious Goals Committee eventually credited the goal to Gilberto. However, Gilberto's return to favour did not stop Arsenal's 2007–08 season ending trophyless. The club subsequently faced the possibility of several players leaving; among those rumoured to leave was Flamini, the player who had kept Gilberto out of the first team. The Frenchman ended up moving to A.C. Milan on 6 May, and a subsequent gap was left in the Arsenal midfield. Gilberto became less likely to leave the club during Summer 2008 as a result, and Wenger remarked that he wanted to keep Gilberto; Gilberto saying he wanted to stay and possibly even renew his contract at Arsenal. Gilberto finished the 2007–08 season with 36 appearances for Arsenal, albeit only 12 of these being Premier League starts.

Panathinaikos
Following Brazil's summer international games, he was seriously linked with a move to Greek club Panathinaikos. The speculation concluded when Gilberto agreed terms with the Athenian side on 17 July 2008, for an undisclosed fee. During his first season at the club, Gilberto helped the side reach the UEFA Champions League Round of 16. He managed to win both the 2009–10 Greek Championship and Cup with Panathinaikos, being the starting holding midfielder and producing numerous solid displays. In Gilberto's final home game for Panathinaikos on 23 May 2011, he scored the winning goal in a 1–0 victory over PAOK, for the Greek UEFA Champions League playoffs. Two days later, he played his final game for the team, winning 2–0 against AEK Athens.

Later career
On 23 May 2011, Gilberto ended his 9-year career in Europe by signing an 18-month deal with Grêmio, of Porto Alegre.

In the past, Gilberto hinted that he may one day return to Brazil to play for Atlético Mineiro. After his football career finishes, he has said that he would like to, "Live in a small farm and ride a horse and have all of my family next to me." On 10 November 2012, it was confirmed that Gilberto's wish would be granted, as he signed a pre-contract with Galo.

On 9 December 2012, Gilberto was welcomed at Aeroporto dos Confins by fans of Atlético Mineiro, returning to the Belo Horizonte side after 11 years away. Gilberto spoke of winning the 2013 Copa Libertadores title upon his return. Gilberto achieved this wish on 24 July 2013, with a final victory over Club Olimpia of Paraguay.

On 11 December 2015, after two years without a club, he officially announced his retirement as a footballer, intending to pursue a career as an international consultant for clubs and players.

International career
In October 2001, his good performances from that year earned Gilberto a call up to the Brazil national team ("A Seleção") by Luiz Felipe Scolari for the 2002 World Cup qualification games. He made his international debut against Chile on 7 October, coming on as a substitute. On 7 November, he made his debut in the starting line-up of the national team against Bolivia. His international career continued to flourish in early 2002: he scored twice against Bolivia and once against Iceland. In 2002, he was a surprise inclusion in the Brazil squad for the 2002 FIFA World Cup in South Korea and Japan. He was expected to play a small part in the tournament. However, defensive midfielder and Brazilian team captain Emerson was injured in training just before the first World Cup game. In light of the setback, coach Scolari called upon Gilberto to fill the gap which Emerson left. Gilberto ended up playing in every minute of every match of the tournament, which Brazil went on to win. In the words of Veja magazine, Gilberto "carried the piano for Ronaldo and Rivaldo to play their tunes on". He was not without attacking use either, setting up Ronaldo's semi-final goal to put Brazil through to the final. It was Gilberto's performance in this tournament which led to him being classed as one of the top defensive midfielders in the world.

On 22 June 2005, Gilberto played in Brazil's 2–2 draw against Japan, in his only game of the 2005 FIFA Confederations Cup. His absence as a first team regular could be explained by his lack of games, and thus match fitness, for Arsenal during the season leading up to the tournament. Gilberto's appearance in the tournament gained him a winners medal, as Brazil went on to win the competition. On the back of his good Champions League form, Gilberto was selected for the Brazil national football team for the 2006 FIFA World Cup. Gilberto was substituted on in two games, and started twice due to another injury to Emerson. Brazil were beaten 1–0 by France in the quarter final. Following Brazil's World Cup disappointment, midfielder Juninho called for the older members of the Brazil squad (including Gilberto) to retire from international football. On the back of Gilberto's childhood idol Dunga being appointed Brazil coach, Gilberto did not take Juninho's advice, and subsequently continued his international career.

On 1 June 2007, Gilberto captained Brazil against England at the first senior international match at the new Wembley Stadium. Having had a seemingly good headed goal disallowed after 20 minutes, he set up Brazil's only goal as the game ended 1–1. During the summer of 2007 Gilberto played in the Copa América tournament, in which he was chosen to captain Brazil in the absence of Lúcio. They went on to beat Argentina 3–0 in the final, though he missed the final game through suspension. Following the end of the 2007–08 Premier League season, Gilberto was called up to the Brazil national team for the 2009 FIFA Confederations Cup, in which they retained the title with a 3-2 win over the United States and for the 2010 FIFA World Cup qualifiers during the summer as well as a tour of the United States.

Style of play
Gilberto is often called "the invisible wall" in Brazil. His play often goes unnoticed as he positions himself between the two centre backs and the rest of midfield, breaking up opposition attacks before they gather momentum. In this role, he is a part of the defensive unit for both club and country. When playing, he is more passive than most players in defence. Rather than tackle an opponent, he is more likely to shadow him, thus pushing him back. As a result, he has an unusually clean record for a defensive midfielder: he has twice gone 45 games or more without receiving a single booking during his Arsenal career.

Gilberto is good at helping to defend against opponents who play a long ball game because he often man marks the opposition's attacking target-man. This cuts off the opposition's supply to the strikers, and thus forces the long-ball team to play through the midfield, something to which long-ball teams are not particularly suited.

Despite Gilberto's high pass completion rate, his passing has been described as erratic in the past.

According to ProZone (a data analysis system used by football managers) figures cited by The Sunday Times in January 2007, Gilberto was, together with Paul Scholes of Manchester United and Frank Lampard of Chelsea, one of the few midfielders in England to attain "the elite Champions League level" of performance.

Outside playing career
Gilberto is a patron of The Street League, a UK based charity which organises football matches for homeless people, refugees and asylum seekers. In June 2003, he travelled to Brazil on tour with 17 Street League players. The tour included a visit to his home town Lagoa da Prata and games against local shanty town teams at the Maracanã stadium.

Gilberto plays the guitar and used to play the mandolin; whilst with the Brazil squad on the buses, he would often be a part of customary music and singing routines ahead of matches with Ronaldinho and Roberto Carlos. He also has a giant anteater named after him at London Zoo. Gilberto is an adoptee of the animal, which he received from a London Zoo competition winner. The footballer described the South American animal as "my slightly more hairy brother!"

During the 2014 FIFA World Cup in Brazil, he served as a studio analyst for ESPN on ABC alongside former Dutch international Ruud van Nistelrooy. Gilberto later worked on an expert panel during BBC's coverage of the 2022 FIFA World Cup in Qatar, he featured alongside Jürgen Klinsmann, Vincent Kompany, Didier Drogba, Laura Georges, Pablo Zabaleta and Mark Schwarzer.

In May 2016, Gilberto joined Panathinaikos as technical director; he left in December, after seven months in the role. Gilberto serves as an ambassador for both Arsenal and FIFA, he was also named the 23rd FIFA Master class patron by the International Centre for Sports Studies in 2023 for his contribution to football.

International

 * Scores and results list Brazil's goal tally first, score column indicates score after each Silva goal.

Honours
América Mineiro
 * Série B: 1997

Atlético Mineiro
 * Campeonato Mineiro: 2000, 2013
 * Copa Libertadores: 2013

Arsenal
 * Premier League: 2003–04
 * FA Cup: 2002–03, 2004–05
 * FA Community Shield: 2002, 2004

Panathinaikos
 * Super League Greece: 2009–10
 * Greek Football Cup: 2009–10

Brazil
 * FIFA World Cup: 2002
 * Copa América: 2007
 * FIFA Confederations Cup: 2005, 2009

title: Gilberto Silva


text: User talk:68.10.255.65

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:68.10.255.65


text:
Talk:Moss v. Bush

Can the election be overturned?
I think the US Constitution provides that it won't be. Kevin Baas argues that Ohio law allows Ohio to change the electoral votes after they have been cast. Since Kevin's assertion does not in itself make anything contrary to it patently false, but only if he can support it, I ask him to provide a link to the Ohio statute that makes the provision he is referring to. jguk 22:04, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Jguk, Please stop putting information in an article that you do not know to be true and that others tell you is false.
That is disturbing behavior.

(Moss v. Bush)

Read the article and the court filings. Learn about something before you attempt to teach it. Kevin Baas | talk 22:04, 2004 Dec 18 (UTC)

(copied from User_talk:Jguk): {
 * You might care to note that the reference to what the Kerry campaign said that I added was direct from one of the references you added yourself into the article. Kind regards, jguk 22:08, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * You are confused. That reference does not refer to Moss vs. Bush.  Kerry is not involved in that lawsuit, and is unlikely to be as familiar with the relevant laws and procedures as the lawyers persuing the case. Kevin Baas | talk 22:12, 2004 Dec 18 (UTC) }

Why don't you frickin do your own research? Especially before messing with someone else's work? That arrogance + ignorance, and it's a bad combination! Kevin Baas | talk 22:06, 2004 Dec 18 (UTC)

The legal arguments are made in the court filings, which are cited in the article. Duh. Kevin Baas | talk 22:07, 2004 Dec 18 (UTC)

 * Kevin, paragraph 3 of the first case makes it clear that the plaintiffs are contesting the certification of the electoral college votes. Paragraph 1 of the prayer for relief in that case reiterates that.

 * The same is true (with the same paragraph references) for the second case. Note, however, that in the second case, paragraph 1 of the Prayer for Relief asks for a declaration that the electoral votes should go to Kerry-Edwards, but without providing legal reference for it. This compares with the rest of that paragraph, where legal reference is provided for the claims to have the certification overturned or set aside. This is no coincidence - the court does not have the power to decide what the electoral votes are, only to overturn the certification. Any declaration as to electoral votes would have no legal effect.

 * Now the sources you quote that offer an opinion make it clear that the case is almost certain, if not certain, to fail. But let's briefly examine what would happen if it succeeded. The court would set aside the certification of the electoral votes. It may, or may not, make a declaration as to where the electoral votes should have gone, but as noted above, such a declaration would have no legal effect. Therefore, when Congress meets on 6 January to count the votes, Ohio would not be able to present any properly certified votes. This would leave both Bush and Kerry short of the 271 votes (ie a majority of the Electors - which is still set at 540 even if they do not all cast valid votes). This would throw the Presidency open to the House of Representatives, and the Vice-Presidency open to the Senate (see U.S. Electoral College - or read the U.S. Constitution and the Electoral laws in the United States Code for a fuller picture). There is little doubt that in this very unlikely scenario, with both the House and Senate in Republican hands, Bush winning a plurality of the popular vote and Kerry having conceded the election, that Bush would win in the House, and Cheney in the Senate.

 * The view that this case will not change the election is therefore entirely in line with the facts.

 * The rest of what I added was a précis of a small bit of the first reference quoted in the article. I trust you are not questioning the accuracy of that bit? I thought it was relevant in the same way as ABC did. You may disagree with me on that, as is your right, but that is why I added it. You will note that the front page of johnkerry.com still contains Kerry's concession speech. Kind regards, jguk 22:55, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * I have read a document citing that the ohio supreme court has the power to overturn an election result if fraud is demonstrated. I would take me time to re-find this.  That supports the changing of the electoral votes.

 * Aside from law, changing the electoral votes would be the proper, rational, and moral thing to do if it is undeed demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt that in a legitimate election, the other candidate would win.

 * Regarding, "The view that this case will not change the election is therefore entirely in line with the facts." - I do not dispute this, however, a "view" is not a "fact", it is a "point of view", and as such, does not belong in the article.

 * I withold judgement on the outcome of the court case, because I do not know, and can admit to not knowing, what evidence the prosecutors have. I am quite curious, because their claim is quite bold.  I see from the second filing that they have quite a few witnesses, but I understand that revealing too much information prematuraly may jeopardize their case.  Anyways, given that I effectively know nothing about their case, I'd give it about a 50%-50% chance of what the prosecutors would consider "success". Giving it any other distribution would imply that I know something about it.  That is how you and me differ on this point: I withold judgement. Kevin Baas | talk 23:11, 2004 Dec 18 (UTC)

 * I'll offer you a wager then. If the case is ultimately successful so that Ohio changes its electoral college votes so that Kerry wins them I'll give you $100. If, however, the case fails, so that Bush takes them, you give me $50. Not bad if you think it's 50:50. Are you on? :) Kind regards, jguk 23:18, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * No. I would not bet on 50:50 odds.  If I had to wager, I would wager more that the case would fail, largely based on the obstruction so far and the fact that the judge was originally indicted in the first filling, and instead of recusing himself dismissed the case against himself.  I.e., i don't think the judge will make an impartial ruling, so that affects the probability regardless of the merits of the case.  Bla bla bla, lots of sociological assessments and calculations...

 * But that is idiosyncratic of me, and does not belong in the article. The article has to be based on stricter logic, making fewer assumptions, etc., in order to apply to a more general audience.  With these criteria in respect to the article, we can only accept an a priori probability of 50-50, regardless of what we think or would wager.  Kevin Baas | talk 23:39, 2004 Dec 18 (UTC)

 * What you are proposing is a nonsense. That wherever a court case of any description is raised, we should report it on the assumption that it has a 50:50 chance of success. That would leave Wikipedia hostage to the conspiracy theorists and those wishing to promote minority off-the-wall views. Here we can report what various commentators say about its chances of success. There is nothing wrong in doing this. Nor need this be one-sided if you can find serious commentators who argue that it has a strong chance of success. Soon, of course, we will be able to report the result, but for now, we can report what serious commentators say. jguk 00:04, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * It is not nonsense. What's nonsense is arguments (this is not at you) like "If we let them count the ballots that were found in King County, WA, then they'll just keep adding ballots and we'll never stop counting." - That argument assumes that there are an infinite number of ballots, which is, to say the least, inconcievable.  The counting of ballots will stop when all of the ballots are counted, as they d*mn well should be.  But I digress.

 * Now you're talk of "conspiracy theorists", I hope you can understand means nothing to me. What is a conspiracy?  It is when multiple people cooperated to accomplish some given task that they all were predisposed to.  Today, I just conspired with my associates to finish a website we've been working on for a client.  Does that seem improbable to you?  Okay, now would it seem more or less improbable if I said I made the website all by myself?  Less, I would hope.  Consipiracies usually are rather harmless.  Idealogies, on the hand, can be rather dangerous.

 * But again, I digress. Both sides can be argued effectively.  Obstruction is obstruction.  It is not conspiracy.  It is a phenomena.  It alters the end result just as a "conspiracy theory" would, in fact, I would expect an event to have more influence on a result than a theory.

 * Though both sides can be argued, the "conspiracy theorists" argument is considered to be a logical fallacy, namely ad hominem or "personal attack", and as such is not a valid basis for an argument in a debate where you can expect your debatee to be able to think rationally.

 * Now looking at the history of court cases, court cases actually win a little more than fail, so i was slanting to your benefit.

 * I have told you before (on your talk page), and I will say it again: you are welcome to put people views on the manner in the article, in an appropriately labeled section. Predictions and views do not belong in the section describing the court case. Kevin Baas | talk 00:22, 2004 Dec 19 (UTC)

 * The paragraph that you added, the first sentence is an opinion. The rest of the paragraph is non-sequitur; irrelevant.  This article is not about recounts or kerry conceding.  It is about a lawsuit.  If you want to put kerry's opinion on the lawsuit "Moss v. Bush", make a section and put it in their.  As far as I know, he has made no public statements regarding the suit. Kevin Baas | talk 04:33, 2004 Dec 19 (UTC)

Nice work reorganizing the page and expanding
Thanks, the page looks much better. I trimmed some POV, and I hope you will continue to trim any POV I inadvertently put in. You can see the edit summaries for reasoning. If you still dispute, let us discuss it here. Kevin Baas | talk 21:28, 2004 Dec 19 (UTC)

 * The sources supporting the bit on what would happen were the case successful, I left on your talk page. Essentially they are in the US Constitution and in Title 3 of the United States Code. Please see your talk page for links to these.

 * I'm fine with everything I didn't trim, whether or not it's sourced. I'd prefer things to be sourced anyways, for utility to the reader: so people can verify it and read more about it.  Though there has been discussions/disputes on other talk pages about the extent of citing and how it should be done.  I like the section on what the possible outcomes could be, both in principle and as written.  I would be against attributing probabilities to the outcomes, in principle.

 * If we allow Arnebeck's comment that he has enough proof to win his case, we should have other comments (and your own references provide some) that the case has little or no chance of success. If it's the general attribution to "mainstream media" that you do not like, we can be more specific in the attribution of such comments. I'm easy on whether both comments stay, or both go, but do not think it should be keep just one of them.

 * Arnebeck's claim is different, because it is part of the suit; the suit claims to have sufficient evidence, and that effects the legal proceedings. Maybe it could be reworded.  I don't mean for it to be rhetorical.

 * I'm not aware of any reports by MSM that they don't think it would be successfull. I don't think that would be responsible reporting.  Perhaps in an editorial they could write that, but not in a news article.  As a prediction, it is not reporting what has or is happening, but what may happen, which is not news; is not a desciption of empirical events.

 * Perhaps one might think by that the fact that they are underreporting it, that they don't give it much credit, but that is a guess as to why they are underreporting it, that we cannot be sure of. We may say that they are underreporting it, or whatever wording can be agreed upon, but we should not guess as to their motivations or opinions.

 * If you do in fact have reports were specific news sources have editorialized about Moss v. Bush, then that may be appropriate for a POV's section, in balance, ofcourse.

 * If there are points of views presented, they should be in a section specifically for views, and I agree, they should present both sides.

 * I don't think there's any doubt what the House or Senate would do if the election were thrown to them to decide. Do you think you could find someone who does have serious doubts about that? We could change "The expectation would be that they would" to ", who would almost certainly". jguk 21:38, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * I don't claim to know anyone who has doubts. I just don't think it's appropriate to make judgements in the article.  That is for the reader to do.  I don't think any reader would be at pains to come to the same conclusion that we both do.  And I don't think it's our responsibility, or even that we have the right to, suggest this to them. Kevin Baas | talk 02:48, 2004 Dec 20 (UTC)

Law resources

 * However, as late as 1914, Ohio apparently provided for a commission to hear contests involving presidential electors. See Link v. Karb, 104 N.E. 632, 638 (Ohio 1914) (“For instance, the contest of an election of an *elector* of the President of the United States shall be heard before a commission consisting of the Governor and four judges of the circuit courts, to be appointed by the Governor; the judgment of this commission is final.”).

 * Outcome Allegation - Because the petition must allege the elements of an election contest, the petition should include allegations that because of the irregularities, enough ballots were affected that the result of the election was incorrect or uncertain. A contest petition fails to state a cause of action for contest of an election if it does not allege that the contestee did not receive the largest number of votes or that there was sufficient error, fraud, or mistake in the tabulation of the ballots to taint the result. See Cooper v. Kosling, 94 N.E.2d 1, 1 (Ohio 1950); cf Thompson v. Redington, 110 N.E.2d 652, 655 (Ohio 1915) (petition sufficient where it avers that the contestor was duly elected to office). Complying with the required outcome allegation could prove problematic for contestors of the 2004 presidential race in Ohio where the Democratic Party is on record as saying the election outcome will not change, although the group planning to file a contest on Wednesday apparently believes that Senator Kerry would have won but for the improprieties. See James Dao & Alberto Salvato, As Questions Keep Coming, Ohio Certifies Its Vote Count, N.Y. Times, Dec. 7, 2004, available at http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/07/national/07ohio.html?ore=login. -

I can't find Link v. Karb. Kevin Baas | talk 20:29, 2004 Dec 20 (UTC)

On other sites

Also at, :

 * At this point, Kerry would require court and/or congressional intervention to win the election. Ohio law allows its courts to overturn the results of any election, including their election of presidential electors. There is some ambiguity as to whether an Ohio court, if finding that the wrong set of electors were elected, could order their votes changed.

 * If Kerry can show that the election was not held to the standard of "one voter, one vote," and that he would have won if the election had been held to that standard, then the courts can find that the election result was wrong. The documented disenfranchisement of precincts historically favoring Democrats and actually favoring Kerry is known with certainty within a few thousand votes.

 * Kerry can also win in Ohio if legal action or the recount uncovers gross fraud. Kerry needs more than 118,000 additional votes, so the recount alone, which will consider 93,000 additional ballots, will probably not help much. There is evidence that inequitable distribution of voting machines, resulting in an unevenly distributed effective occurrences of multi-hour waiting, may also more than make up the vote difference; however, the recount process will not take these issues into account.

 * If the election is overturned on the Ohio level, then a challenge may have to be raised by one Congressman and one Senator during the meeting where the Electoral Votes are counted. Depending on the strength of the case, Congress may still not vote to invalidate the Bush electors that have already been appointed. However, an order by an Ohio court to the electors requiring them to change their votes may be sufficient.

Kevin Baas | talk 21:46, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)

Great article, info to be put in here
Kevin Baastalk 18:21, 2004 Dec 25 (UTC)

electoral college
What happens if the elector college changes votes after they cast them and before they're counted? How Kennedy won Hawaii Kevin Baastalk 22:42, 2004 Dec 26 (UTC)

Also: Kevin Baastalk 01:52, 2004 Dec 28 (UTC)

cleaned up substantially
I've cleaned up the article substantially, and removed the dispute tags as a result. The main changes were making it more concise and readable, rather than grandiosely over-wordy, and taking out some editorializing that had been thrown in. The main improvement it still needs is sources for all the dates and whatnot; many that had sources before are 404 links, and some had no sources to begin with. --Delirium 09:05, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

removal of pdf research papers
Hey there. Not sure I agree with the rationale for removal of the pdf links, as far as I could tell, those are the research papers themselves and are indeed of use for people who want to dig further and read the core materials. Thoughts? -- User:RyanFreisling @ 16:55, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of "Potential outcomes" subsection
I'm leaning towards deleting "Potential outcomes" for the following reasons: Thanks, TheronJ 15:58, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) As written, it's WP:OR.
 * 2) It's unsourced, which violates WP:V.
 * 3) Talking about the "potential outcomes" of a suit that was dismissed is a fairly delicate topic, which I think exacerbates the concerns above.  I'd be happier with a properly sourced sentence somewhere stating that if successful, the Contestors would have shifted enough electoral votes to Kerry to shift the election.

 * I agree wholeheartedly. Such futurism seems a bit of a stretch for an encyclopedia. A blip along the lines of your last sentence would sum up the relevance of the case nicely. The last paragraph of the section does seem to sum up the procedural and Constitutional reality and relevance of a successful bid to overturn Ohio's electoral votes - so perhaps modification of that core would suffice. Thoughts? -- User:RyanFreisling @ 16:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Article way too long
These lawsuits never amounted to anything. If the judge involved described them as "at best, highly improbable and potentially defamatory, inflammatory, and devoid of logic" why should we spend more then a cursory amount of time covering them? Bonewah (talk) 02:29, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Arbitration Motion
The Arbitration Committee are reviewing the discretionary sanctions topic areas with a view to remove overlapping authorisations, the proposed changes will affect this topic area. Details of the proposal are at Arbitration/Requests/Motions where your comments are invited. For the Arbitration Committee, Liz  Read! Talk! 21:35, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

External links modified (February 2018)
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I have just modified 9 external links on Moss v. Bush. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050418113805/http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/newpdf/0/2004/2004-ohio-6792.pdf to http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/newpdf/0/2004/2004-ohio-6792.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071127064014/http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/newpdf/0/2004/2004-ohio-6794.pdf to http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/newpdf/0/2004/2004-ohio-6794.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071127064012/http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/newpdf/0/2005/2005-ohio-71.pdf to http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/newpdf/0/2005/2005-ohio-71.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20051226080759/http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/newpdf/0/2005/2005-ohio-2419.pdf to http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/newpdf/0/2005/2005-ohio-2419.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050115095334/http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/newpdf/0/2004/2004-ohio-7079.pdf to http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/newpdf/0/2004/2004-ohio-7079.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20041229140804/http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/newpdf/0/2004/2004-ohio-6995.pdf to http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/newpdf/0/2004/2004-ohio-6995.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20041230172539/http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/newpdf/0/2004/2004-ohio-7119.pdf to http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/newpdf/0/2004/2004-ohio-7119.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050115095244/http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/newpdf/0/2004/2004-ohio-7120.pdf to http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/newpdf/0/2004/2004-ohio-7120.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050418113803/http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/newpdf/0/2004/2004-ohio-7020.pdf to http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/newpdf/0/2004/2004-ohio-7020.pdf

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Sorry for eavesdropping, but I looked into your block log and it says you've never been blocked. Perhaps it's a problem with your current IP; that would be my guess. -→ Buchanan-Hermit ™ / ?!  23:05, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

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What's the exact block message you got? DS 23:16, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

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ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 12:55, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Flyingcheese