text:
Talk:David Lammy

Labour Friends of Israel in the "Other political affiliations section"
Is it acceptable to place Labour Friends of Israel in the "Other political affiliations section" of the infobox? Helper201 (talk) 00:29, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

 * Yes, per the reasoning I've set out the discussion directly above this. Helper201 (talk) 00:27, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes - after reading the discussion above, I see no reason to leave it out. It is an explicitly political group which Lammy is a member of.  Rema goxer  (talk) 07:56, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
 * No. Did you really start an RFC over this? I'm sure it's something that could have been worked out by discussion. Lammy is a member of a group, I'm sure he's a member of many different groups and we wouldn't count such as "Political Affiliation" even if the group had a political aspect. He is not politically affiliated to an internal Labour work group, he is not politicallly affiliated to the inter-party Faith and Society group (even though he's the secretary of that group).That he has a supposed allegiance is a product of the current times, and not a reality. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 13:17, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment, you said "I don't think we going to agree on this, hopefully another editor will have some input". I opened the rfc to get that input from other editors. I don't see a problem with that. Helper201 (talk) 18:59, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
 * There's a lot of other ways to resolve disputes without jumping all the way to having an RFC, per WP:Dispute resolution and WP:RFCBEFORE. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 19:58, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
 * No. I don't think this is necessary and would just add unneccessary clutter. What if there's a Labour MP who's a member of the Socialist Campaign Group, Labour Friends of Israel, Labour Friends of Palestine and the Middle East, Labour Friends of the Forces, Labour Friends of Taiwan and possibly other Labour parliamentary groups as well? There'll certainly be politicians who are members of several groups, at which point surely we wouldn't just add a long list of mostly irrelevant political affiliations to their infobox? If we are to use the other political affiliation section in the infobox of UK politicians (Lammy isn't the only one who's had LFI added in recent weeks) then it should be something specifically noteworthy to that politician. For example, Tony Benn was a founder and chair of the Socialist Campaign Group, so it would make sense to have that group added to his infobox since it's of noteworthy relevance to his career. Afaik, Lammy is merely just a member of LFI. He's not a founder or a prominent member; it has no noteworthy relevance or bearing on his wider parliamentary career. It's just a bit of unneccessary trivia to add LFI into the infobox.

 * Former prime ministers Gordon Brown and Tony Blair are also members of LFI, yet it isn't mentioned in their infoboxes either. Former PM Liz Truss is a member of the Conservative Growth Group and the Free Enterprise Group, yet none of these are mentioned in her infobox. Michael Foot was a member of the Tribune Group, yet that isn't mentioned either. I could keep going. I just don't see any reason why any group, including LFI, should be included in Lammy's infobox unless, as I've said, they are noteworthy to his career. Lammy's membership of LFI is a minor footnote to his career and therefore should not be mentioned in the infobox due to its irrelevance. Same with other politicians. ThatRandomGuy1 (talk) 20:14, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

 * Comment: That isn't the case with this person in terms of belonging to a long list of groups. Nor is there going to be many politicians that belong to a long list of groups. Regardless, this could easily be resolved by using group abbreviations e.g., for Labour Friends of Israel use LFI. The Wikipedia notes system could also be used to resolve this if it ever becomes an issue. I.e., there are multiple ways this could be resolved if an issue arises from it but it’s not even an issue for this page anyway. I'd certainly argue this is very much relevant in terms of Lammy given he's the Shadow Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs, one of the most senior Shadow Cabinet positions and the most senior in regards to foreign affairs, of which this strongly relates.

 * In regards to Brown and Blair and those other examples, that is WP:OTHERCONTENT. Helper201 (talk) 20:52, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
 * As you reinstated this into the article saying that this is the way it's used at Jeremy Corbyn that seems to be a bit of an about face. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 21:44, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
 * No. It is unnecessary for the reasons stated above Michaeldble (talk) 22:05, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
 * No. It is not necessary to include all of a politicians affiliations to groups within their own party. If we were to routinely do that then the list would be a dozen items long for almost every politician. If some politician is on the Green Party Working Group for Procurement of Sustainable Paperclips then that does not belong in the infobox. If it is notable then it can be covered in the body. If we are to decide that Labour Friends of Israel is a special case then we had better have a very good reason for singling them out over all the other internal Labour groups that could be listed. As I see it, this field is primarily for people who represent different parties at different levels (e.g. one party at a national level and another at a transnational level) or where a person represents more than one party (e.g. Labour and Cooperative). I see the point that the field might be used for organisations other than parties but I see something like a sponsoring trade union as a much more legitimate use than some selected specialist group within the party already listed. Bloat and arbitrariness are not the only considerations here. Adding groups may give an impression of divided loyalties, even when that is not intended. My first thought when I saw it added here was that this was exactly what was being insinuated, although I quickly realised that it wasn't when I checked the editor's other contributions. --DanielRigal (talk) 23:03, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

 * Comment: No one has said it's necessary to put all political affiliations in the infobox. We are talking about this instance on this page. Even if we were talking about multiple affiliations in this section its easily doable via abbreviations. What is "necessary" is entirely subjective. This case has an exceptionally good reason for being in the infobox being it’s a group specifically centred around foreign policy with this person in a Shadow Cabinet position role presiding over foreign policy. Helper201 (talk) 23:16, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
 * No. It is not necessary to include … a politicians affiliations to groups within their own party, and mere membership indicates 'interest' rather than 'affiliation'. The underlying logic of this is somewhat McCarthyite "Are you or have you ever been a member of the Friends of …". If and when WP:RS describe some solid reason why an individual politician's 'memberships' become important - then it can go in the body and perhaps the infobox if WEIGHT allows. Pincrete (talk) 09:49, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

RfC on David Lammy
Should David Lammy, the MP for Tottenham, be described as a "British politician" or an "English politician"? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:46, 27 February 2024 (UTC) Do the balance of these sources assert that David Lammy, the MP for Tottenham, is a British politician?
 * Procedural comment: This RfC was opened with a non-neutral question. It is still present just below, signed by Erzan 14:11, 14 February. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:46, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

 Erzan (talk) 14:11, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

 * That's not a valid RfC question. You have to ask about how the article should be worded in a clear way that everybody can understand and which can be implemented. As nobody has replied yet (this comment doesn't count) you can try rewording it. DanielRigal (talk) 14:24, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

OK. Maybe I can rescue this. While I think the question here was asked and answered quite some time ago, I think it might be good to get a final, definitive, documented answer that will discourage repeated attempts to relitigate it. Here is my interpretation of the question that Erzan is asking stated in the most simple and neutral way that I can. Ezran, please feel free to point out any mistakes in this:

'''This article currently describes Lammy as "an English politician". Should this be changed to primarily describe him as "a British politician"?''' --DanielRigal (talk) 18:57, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Survey

 * No . Lammy is an English person representing an English seat in the UK Parliament. He (correctly) describes himself as English as well as British. As such, "English" is preferable because it is more specific, equally correct and more consistent with the way we write about other English politicians . "English" automatically implies British so there is nothing lost by saying "English" instead of "British". I see no problem with the word British being used in other parts of the article but the primary description of him should be as English. Ezran has not advanced any argument that English is wrong, only that British is also correct, which is true but irrelevant. I do not know why Ezran is so keen to change this. I do know that some previous editors of this article have attempted to make the same change and have made the claim that English is an ethnicity and hence black people can not be English. That is just racist claptrap and deserves no further consideration. To be very clear, I am not accusing Ezran of holding that position. Nonetheless, we should avoid wording the article in any ambiguous way that might be misunderstood as supporting, or leaving space for, such an idiotic position, even inadvertently. --DanielRigal (talk) 19:14, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
 * There is no such thing as English citizenship and saying that an MP sits for an English constituency and is therefore English makes no more sense than arguing that Kamala Harris is a Californian, but not an American politician. The description 'English politician' has not been in regular use for 100s of years. 'Scottish politician' as a term makes sense, not because of place of birth or residence of the politician, but because there is 'Scottish-specific politics' and there are politicians and Scottish parties who seek independence from the UK and who habitually identify themselves, and are therefore ordinarily identified by sources as 'Scottish'. There are no significant English independence parties or politicians. No source AFAIK ever calls Lammy an English politician. Pincrete (talk) 07:46, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
 * A politician who is English is an English politician, that is just how English works. Someone who is Scottish and a baker is an English baker. The occupation of being a politician is not the same as saying some one is an MP, there are many politicians who are not MPs. So whether or not he is an English or British politician has nothing to do with with the nature of Parliament. The situation in the UK is not the same as the US, see WP:UKNATIONALS. -- LCU A ctively D isinterested  «@» °∆t° 18:39, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
 * David Lammy

1. Overwhelming refers to himself as British. The many references support that.

2. A British politician for the British Parliament. English MPs do not exist nor is there an English election or Parliament.

3. A member of the British Labour Party.

4. Personally identifies as European, British, English and a Londoner.

5. The vast majority of the UK Shadow Cabinet are also described as British politicans.

I am the same ethnicity as David Lammy, Afro-Carribbean heritage, and have repeatedly explained with many references why Lammy is a British politician. A compromise was offered to have his English identity mentioned elsewhere and I am more than glad to have it mentioned in his personal life area because it is clear by the many references he has a strong passion for a plural identity. This repeated need to mention alleged bigotry have nothing to do with my statements, please stop mentioning it. Thank you.

I propose an offer of compromise.

David Lammy described as a British politician, like the rest of the UK Shadow Cabinet of MPs, then have his personal identities mentioned in the personal life section.

Erzan (talk) 19:25, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

 * OK. Clearly you have been unlucky in that you are making the same suggestion as those other people I mentioned but for very different reasons and some of the annoyance that they caused may have affected the responses to you. The last time I looked, the majority of English MPs were described as English but I'll have another look. DanielRigal (talk) 21:36, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I offer an even bigger compromise.

 * In the personal life section or something similar, only mention him being English additionally. I won't touch it. I am not asking for British to be mentioned any other places than "British politician" in the lead.

 * Thank you for also acknowledging my concerns. Erzan (talk) 22:14, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I've just been clicking on articles about MPs pretty randomly and the English ones are mostly listed as British now. The Scottish and Welsh ones are still mostly listed as Scottish and Welsh. I'm not keen on that inconsistency but it does mean that changing it to British would not be inconsistent with other English MPs. I'm still not sure that changing it is necessary but I no longer think that it is objectionable. I'll strike out the appropriate parts of my !vote above. --DanielRigal (talk) 02:33, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you. @ActivelyDisinterested do you agree with @DanielRigal and if so would you like the offer of compromise as well? Erzan (talk) 09:03, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I suspect that the difference is that Scotland and Wales have their own devolved parliaments, unlike England. An English politician who sits in Westminster is perhaps better described as a 'British politician'.  Tewdar   09:07, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
 * 1/. There are many sources for both.
 * 2/. Politician as an occupation isn't the same as being an MP. A local councillor could be an English politician, even if they were a councillor in Scotland.
 * 3/. If the sentence at question was about his membership of the Labour party this would be relevant, but the sentence isn't about his membership of the Labour party so its not.
 * 4/. Yes he does the question is which one to use.
 * 5/. How other articles are setup doesn't dictate the wording in this one.
 * Who you are, or who I am makes no difference is this discussion (On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog). -- LCU A ctively D isinterested  «@» °∆t° 18:47, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

English This is a very simple case per MOS:NATIONALITY. He resides in his country of origin, which is England. I don't see a compelling argument presented to change the status quo. WP:OTHERCONTENT is irrelevant. Frankly, I don't think a RFC is necessary on something so simple. Nemov (talk) 13:42, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

 * Can you explain why David Lammy's article should go against the standard of other similar articles? The vast majority of British MPs are called British politicans.

 * Can you explain why the numerous sources repeatedly have David Lammy call himself British should be ignored?

 * Can you explain why the numerous of sources that describe David Lammy as a Biritsh politican should be ignored? Erzan (talk) 16:33, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Can you WP:DROPTHESTICK and stop WP:BLUDGEONING? This is a RFC and editors aren't required to satisfy you. Nemov (talk) 17:04, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
 * "English" is not a nationality in the ordinary sense of the word - like French, German, American etc. It is a cultural identification somewhat akin to ethnicity. Charlie Chaplin described himself and was seen as being "English", rather than "British", but most people born in England are described as British, rather than English. George Bush was Texan, but does that mean he was a Texan politician? Originally perhaps if he was solely involved in Texan local politics, but even then WP would describe him as American. Why would we want to use the more parochial term? The bottom line is, do sources describe Lammy as an 'English politician'? Because, I thought he was the (Shadow) British Foreign Secretary! Pincrete (talk) 08:15, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

British, in line with the articles for these first contemporary politicians I picked, and the sources above which could be used to support self-identification as either British or English. From a quick glance at other articles, it looks like 'English politician' is more common for historical figures like these ancient guys. Changed my mind. English or British are both fine. I'm not sure the argument about 'British politician because they sit in Westminster' is really all that great (we wouldn't call an English person sat in the European parliament a 'European politician', for example. If anything, I'd probably prefer English, which is also supported by the sources and in line with the sort of, lowest level of nationality the subject identifies as.  Tewdar   09:29, 17 February 2024 (UTC) edited by   Tewdar   09:18, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

 * If a person born in London migrated to Sydney & became an MP of the Australian Parliament, you'd call them an Australian politician. Despite being born in England. Because birthplace isn't the determined factor, citizenship & the geographical jurisdiction of the institution they are a member of are. An English citizenship & Parliament doesn't exist. So, applying the same logic to David Lammy, he is a British politician. Erzan (talk) 12:38, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

British, in line with sources. English politician would only make sense if his politics were England-specific and/or he supported English independence, neither of which is the case.The English ones are mostly listed as British now. The Scottish and Welsh ones are still mostly listed as Scottish and Welsh That simply isn't true, Gordon Brown, Robin Cook, John Smith, Tony Blair (who was born in Scotland) are all described as 'British', because they were all members of the UK parliament and involved with British, not Scots, politics. Those who are listed as 'Scottish/Welsh/ N Irish' will almost always be because they are solely involved in devolved (ie Scots/Welsh/N Irish) politics in Scots/Welsh/N Irish assemblies and/or because they are members of pro-independence political parties. I have never heard of Lammy being described as English. If he ever self-describes, it is as a local cultural identification akin to Bush describing himself as 'Texan', not something that overrides Lammy's citizenship (British) and area of political involvement (the UK). This is an attempt to impose a 'one-size-fits-all' logic by those who don't appear to understand either British politics or conventions.Pincrete (talk) 07:33, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
 * English as per self identification in the sources on the article. I don't see any of the arguments given as a good reason to change it. The fact that other articles have been changed isn't an argument for changing this one, that's just fait accompli (The English ones are mostly listed as British now. The situation in the UK is not the same as the US, nationalitylies in the UK ate not the samr as being from a particular state of the US (WP:UKNATIONALS). There was a question of the misuse of "English Member of Parliament", which would be wrong but that isn't what the lead says. If Lammy was Scottish and a baker they would be a Scottish baker. Someone who was English and a baker in Scotland would be an English baker who works in Scotland. The occupation has nothing to do with the nature of the British parliament, this is as silly a notion as the idea that an English lawyer is English because they practice English law. Someone who is English and resides in England, but works long distance in American law doesn't become American because of their occupation. "English politician" is still very commonly used for disambiguation of individuals, in those articles however the lead has been changed to say "British politician" something that should be undone until an RM is done so article title and article text match. -- LCU A ctively D isinterested  «@» °∆t° 19:06, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
 * procedural close per Nemov's suggestion below. When viewing this at Requests_for_comment/Biographies it only shows as "Do the balance of these sources assert that David Lammy, the MP for Tottenham, is a British politician?" with the sources 1 to 19. This is a badly worded RfC. TarnishedPathtalk 01:31, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
 * @TarnishedPath The RFC has been reworded if you wish to amend your comment. Nemov (talk) 18:01, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
 * British politician I would consider that MOS:CITIZEN, by referring explicitly to citizenship and nationality, indicates British is generally more appropriate. "In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory where the person is currently a citizen, national, or permanent resident." There is no English citizenship, only British and England is not a sovereign state. I have always found "English politician" to refer to a politician active in national politics of the United Kingdom as awkward and misleading; there seems to have been a recent shift away from that wording. Wouldn't it seem inaccurate and weird for Rishi Sunak, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, to be described as an "English politician"? The issue of consistency is relevant here; most other national politicians are described as British politicians. If Labour win the next election, will Lammy be the English Foreign Secretary or the British Foreign Secretary? AusLondonder (talk) 18:08, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The problem is this breaks down when it comes to Sinn Fein politicians who are elected to parliament. They would very much disagree with being called 'British' politicians, while DUP politicians would be equally be upset by not being called British.
 * Again the sentence does not say he is an English MP, so it wouldn't say he would be "the English Foreign Secretary". An occupation is not the same as a job title. -- LCU A ctively D isinterested  «@» °∆t° 19:56, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
 * For instance good luck changing the lead of John Finucane. -- LCU A ctively D isinterested  «@» °∆t° 19:59, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Given that Finucane is an Irish citizen and not particularly active in UK-wide politics (he doesn't take his seat in the House of Commons) I don't see the comparison. But are you suggesting DUP politicians are referred to as British politicians? AusLondonder (talk) 01:14, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I can't find any mention of Finucane being an Irish citizen in their article. He was born in the UK and was elected to the British parliament. These are the same arguments being used for why Lammy should not be identified as English (note I definitely don't believe Finucane should be labelled as British). DUP politicians are are generally  described as British as that is how they identify, see Jeffrey Donaldson the current leader of the DUP. -- LCU A ctively D isinterested  «@» °∆t° 14:26, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
 * You must be joking thinking a Sinn Féin politician is a British citizen? I'm guessing you're not familiar with this but anyone born in Northern Ireland is entitled to Irish citizenship. As of 2022 nearly half of people born in Northern Ireland held an Irish passport, with the number holding citizenship without a passport presumably notably higher. It would be utterly inconceivable for a Sinn Féin politician to be a British citizen. Linking David Lammy to the issue of identity in Northern Ireland seems like a bit of a red herring. AusLondonder (talk) 15:54, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
 * You must be joking thinking a Sinn Féin politician is a British citizen? I'm not saying that (as I specifically noted). I'm saying that even though Finucane was born in the UK and was elected to the British parliament, it would be wrong to call him British. Those facts don't change that he's Irish. I did say I didn't see anything in his article to show that he's taken Irish citizenship. nearly half of people born in Northern Ireland held an Irish passport absolutely and it's why it not possible to have a simple one size fits all for all people in the UK. The fact remains that there are four nations of people inside the UK state Finally as this seems to be getting missed repeatedly you don't have to be British to be a Member of Parliament in the UK. As in you don't have to have British citizenship, you can be born in Ireland to Irish parents, only have Irish citizenship, life in Ireland and have spent your whole life in Ireland, and still be elected as an MP. The same is true for any commonwealth country, so being elected to the British parliament is not a reason to be called British. -- LCU A ctively D isinterested  «@» °∆t° 20:10, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
 * British Based on the sources, Lammy tends to identify as British more than English and is a UK unionist (in comparison Englsih/Scottish etc separsits).   Spy-cicle💥   Talk? 01:00, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
 * British - as he is a member of the British Parliament. AFAIK, there's no such thing as a devolved English Parliament, that he was a member of. GoodDay (talk) 18:31, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
 * British per MOS:CITIZEN and per the balance of WP:RS. Tarnished</b><b style="color:#420000;">Path</b><b style="color:#bd4004;">talk</b> 00:53, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
 * British Parliament = British Politician I have been reading the comments here and looking at related sources. It is abundantly clear that the term "British Politician" on this website is meant to associate the politician with the British Parliament. Members of Parliament like David Lammy are British Politicians in that sense.
 * Lammy has described himself as "British" and "English" like any other politician listed in this article's infobox. From what I am reading from this website, these terms are not meant to describe how they personally describe their nationality. As others have noted, there is no "English Parliament", rather constituents of England and the other countries represented in that one single Parliament that meets in that famous building in London, that governs the entire UK.
 * One must be careful when comparing with US politics indeed. First of all, the MPs are all in the same branch of government as the PM. Whereas in the US, Kamala Harris and George W Bush were previously state politicians (and remember "states" in the US are more like formal jurisdictions rather than separate countries in the UK). The UK does not really have the separate legislative and executive branches the US has so that when Harris and Bush went to the executive, "US politician" does make more sense perhaps for the same reason that "British politician" makes more sense for Lammy because Harris and Bush are in the federal executive at that point, and not any state government. Likewise, Lammy is an MP in the British parliament as opposed to a politician in an English jurisdiction.
 * Also, as others have noted and according to England: There has not been a government of England since 1707
 * And so, please do not single out this British MP. He's a member of British parliament, hence a British politician Ender  and  Peter  06:33, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

 * British per “why is this important” + “readers can infer he’s also English from his birthplace”. I don’t really support treating sub-national countries as nationalities. Is someone from Yakutia a “Yakutian politician” or just a Russian politician? The latter, obviously. Dronebogus (talk) 16:58, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
 * English, it necessarily implies that he is British no?--Ortizesp (talk) 14:09, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, well, being born in England implies English. Bit of a Buridan's ass, no? Dronebogus (talk) 00:36, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Not really, if we say he's English it covers both bases, while if we say he's British someone will have to go all the way to the infobox to confirm... Ortizesp (talk) 23:19, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * British, a person born in London migrated to Sydney & became an MP of the Australian Parliament, you'd call them an Australian politician. Despite being born in England. Because birthplace isn't the determined factor, citizenship & the geographical jurisdiction of the institution they are a member of are. An English citizenship, Shadow Secretary & Parliament doesn't exist. So, applying the same logic to David Lammy, he is a British politician. Erzan(talk) 17:03, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
 * English, largely on the basis of STATUS QUO. The MOS accepts either form (see WP:UKNATIONALS), Lammy self-identifies as both and the sources refer to him as both. Given there is no other way to split it, leave it alone. Many of the other arguments are dismissed on that page too (consistency with other politician fails WP:UKCHANGE, for example). - SchroCat (talk) 10:30, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
 * This is like calling the minority deputy leader in the US House of Congress, a Californian politician. So if he becomes Chancellor of the UK, we're going to call the UK Chancellor, an English politician? I am trying to understand the logic here. Erzan (talk) 22:47, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
 * As someone has said above, there is no need for you to BLUDGEON people. You’ve made your comment, so let other people speak without repeating yourself.It is nothing like describing an American: it’s a different country with no similarities in how the country was formed. (The very rough equivalent to ‘California politician’ would be ‘Hampshire politician’, not a country designation). See also note A of mos:NATIONALITY: “There is no categorical preference between describing a person as British rather than as English, Scottish, or Welsh”. - SchroCat (talk) 05:16, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
 * This is a open discussion and people are free to ask, as others have done above. The UK & USA are sovereign countries, California & England are sub-national units. The UK is equal to US. England is equivalent to California. Hence it is the UK & USA who are UN members, not California or England. This is why I asked because there's fundamental misunderstanding of politics and law being applied here. Erzan (talk) 14:22, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I suggest you look at some books on the UK to find out what it is - because it's not what you describe. England is not equivalent to California - something children learn in schools here. The "fundamental misunderstanding of politics and law" isn't by me (a Degree and Masters in Politics and Government here, and this is entirely clear in my mind, let alone in any number of reliable sources). California is not a country, England is. That's why - in a differing example - there is no California football team at a World Cup, but there is an England team, (as well as sometimes/potentially a Welsh, Scottish and Northern Ireland one). If you could learn a bit more about the UK and it's constituent countries, you may understand the difference (it's clearly outlined here and the first paragraph here). Feel free to take note of BLUDGEON as part of your reading, and then not reply, that would be great, thanks. - SchroCat (talk) 16:10, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks. You're under no obligation to reply but the reason the UK doesn't compete as one team in FIFA is the historical decision by the leaders of the UK football sports teams in that organisation early inception, it has nothing to do with England not being the sub-national unit of the UK like California is the sub-national unit of the USA. The information you linked also backs this up, it literally explains what I am saying. Hence the UK competes in most sports as one team, Team GB. Hence the UK and only the UK can join the EU, UN, NATO, IMF & WTO. Erzan (talk) 18:15, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I’m sorry you are unable to understand some basic points on the make up of the UK. It’s seems you cannot differentiate between a nation and a nation state. I’ll step away from this, as WP:COMPETENCE and WP:ICANTHEARYOU and joining BLUDGEON to an unfortunate degree. - SchroCat (talk) 19:30, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Once again please do not be sorry. You mentioned FIFA which is 1 sports organisation and not the authority on the independence and statehood of country. So I was confused why that was used. Again, no need to reply. Thanks. Erzan (talk) 20:39, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
 * England and California are not equivalent, it's widely recognized that England is a country within the United Kingdom. Very much not the case with California. Ortizesp (talk) 23:21, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The word country is synonymous with state or land. It’s an old word used before Scotland & England came together to make the UK. How several states make 1 state in the US, several countries came together to make 1 country & named it the United Kingdom.
 * England and California are politically, geographically and legally recognised as equivalents. They are sub-national regions of a sovereign state. The UK Supreme Court & UN has made that clear. Erzan (talk) 07:46, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Please don’t make up such rubbish. As you’re unable to grasp something so basic as this, I don’t think you have sufficient COMPETENCE to be dealing with questions on what nationality someone else is. - SchroCat (talk) 22:18, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
 * @SchroCat please refrain from engaging in WP:CIV. There has been comments made towards me that are belittling and personal WP:IDENTIFYUNCIVIL. If you wish to construct a persuasive argument all you needed was citations or ask for clarification, I would be more than happy to see what the UN or Supreme Court have said otherwise for example. Thank you. Erzan (talk) 06:35, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Questioning competence isn’t uncivil for a project that requires competence. Things like you leaving a message in my talk archives, rather than on my talk page, tend to reinforce my opinion. - SchroCat (talk) 07:10, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

 * This RFC is kind of a mess. The previous discussion should have prompted a cleaner RFC question, so I'd recommend a procedural close until there's a clear, neutrally worded question to consider. As it stands right now this RFC is too cluttered. Nemov (talk) 21:48, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The RFC has been based on previous RFC. Please explain how asking people whether references support something or not is not clear? Erzan (talk) 22:30, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
 * DanielRigal did indeed provide a clear, neutrally worded question (it's still there), but being buried in the comments, will not be picked up by Legobot. I, but was reverted to all intents and purposes. -- Red rose64 🌹 (talk) 09:29, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
 * So far this has been WP:DISRUPTSIGNS and WP:CIVIL. Efforts to show sources, ask for explanations or raise objections have been ignored or mocked. Erzan (talk) 16:47, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
 * If you want to make aspersions against anyone you should do so at WP:ANI and use diffs as prove. -- LCU A ctively D isinterested  «@» °∆t° 15:27, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Or how about not? Because this is about the difference between two nearly synonymous words that have zero effect on the overall article quality? Not worth fighting over. At all. Dronebogus (talk) 17:33, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I posted a more neutral opening question. Erzan, please do not revert again. You are welcome to make your points and cite your sources, but those do not belong in the neutral opening statement. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:46, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Note: I have recently reverted attempts to change the description from "English" to "British". This was because those changes were accompanied by racist edit summaries and were obviously not genuine attempts to implement any consensus reached here. Please do not interpret this as a slight on those who want to make the same change for non-racist reasons. --DanielRigal (talk) 20:31, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Criticism section / Comments attracting criticism section
The section was just renamed, which got me to think the whole things should be broken up. Per WP:CRITS I'm thinking the different parts should be merged into the Views and Parliamentary career sections. -- LCU A ctively D isinterested  «@» °∆t° 00:17, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

 * I've deconstructed the criticism section and moved the different parts elsewhere in the article, apart from the part about white smoke and the Pope which I removed per WP:BALASP as it seems to have had no lasting importance. -- LCU A ctively D isinterested  «@» °∆t° 19:15, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Separate article for Lammy's tenure as foreign secretary?
Former prime ministers Boris Johnson and David Cameron have articles dedicated to their tenures as Foreign Secretary (Johnson, Cameron). Because, for example, Jeremy Hunt doesn't have one, there appears to be a rather arbitrary process for creating separate articles dedicated to the tenures of foreign secretaries. Therefore, does Lammy, as the first Labour foreign secretary this decade, merit his own article? Maurnxiao (talk) 21:46, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

 * It would depend on how much there is to write about, and if third parties report on it. I doubt there's an immediate need for a separate article, but that could well change. Johnson has a separate article as there's a lot to write about, while Cameron's one appears to have been separated out as the main article is already quite long (as he was PM before he was FS). -- LCU A ctively D isinterested  «@» °∆t° 00:09, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you and that does make sense. Maurnxiao (talk) 01:11, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Redundant 'British' in the first sentence
The addition of British without any other changes to the first sentence is bulky and redundant. Maybe David Lindon Lammy (born 19 July 1972) is an English politician and lawyer who has served as Foreign Secretary of the United Kingdom since July 2024. (addition bolded) would work better. Any thoughts? -- LCU A ctively D isinterested  «@» °∆t° 10:08, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

 * I agree with this. Maurnxiao (talk) 12:21, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I've made the change. -- LCU A ctively D isinterested  «@» °∆t° 18:45, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:David Lammy


text:
Band of the Scots Guards

The Band of the Scots Guards is one of five bands in the Foot Guards Regiments in the Household Division which primarily guards the British monarch.

The band is based at Wellington Barracks in St James's, London, which is the same place as for all the foot guards bands. The band should not be confused with the Pipes and Drums, which is a separate entity comprising fighting soldiers who are also pipers, rather than full-time professional musicians.

History
The Scots Guards is a regiment that was formed by King Charles I in 1642. It is known that in 1716 a small band of "hautbouys" existed; however, the precise origins of the Band of the Scots Guards are unknown.

The band grew in strength during the early part of the 19th century and by 1838, it could boast some 32 performers. Throughout the 19th century the band expanded, until in 1888, there was an establishment of 44.

During the First World War it entertained troops at Ypres and the Somme in 1916. During the Second World War it was entertaining troops on the home front. This was sometimes through the medium of wireless, an example being 18 March 1942, when at 1 am, band members reported for a BBC Overseas Broadcast at the Paris Cinema. Musicians also found themselves on Fire Watch duties based at Egerton House, Buckingham Gate.

The Scots Guards was the only Foot Guards Band to be deployed on active service during the Gulf War in 1990 (with three of their colleagues from the Irish Guards Band). Many different aspects of hospital duties attached to the various departments of 33 General Hospital based in Al Jubail, Saudi Arabia were involved in their work there. In 1992, the Colonel of the Regiment, The Duke of Kent presented Gulf War Medals to Band members.

Regimental Marches
The Regimental Quick March is Hielan' Laddie. The Regimental Slow March is The Garb of Old Gaul.

Ensembles
There are several ensembles within the Band of the Scots Guards:
 * Concert band
 * Marching band
 * Dance band
 * Fanfare Trumpeters
 * Brass Quintet
 * Wind Quintet
 * String Quartet
 * Orchestra
 * Jazz Ensemble

Functions
The Band of the Scots Guards plays for events of state as part of the Massed Bands of the Household Division. Some of the occasions that are most famous are listed below, although this is not a comprehensive list:

 * Changing of the Guard
 * The Festival of Remembrance
 * Trooping the Colour
 * Beating the Retreat
 * Royal Ascot

The band also performs at other non-military events.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Band of the Scots Guards


text:
Talk:Band of the Scots Guards

Untitled
I have paraphrased the original article at Scots Guards Band/Temp, removing POV parts and wikifying as well. Brianjd 12:20, 2004 Dec 11 (UTC)

title: Talk:Band of the Scots Guards


text:
Bainbridge-class destroyer

The Bainbridge-class destroyers were a class of United States Navy Torpedo Boat Destroyers (TBDs) built between 1899 and 1903. The first class so designated, they comprised the first 13 of 16 TBDs authorized by Congress in 1898 following the Spanish–American War (the remaining three authorised comprised the Truxtun-class destroyers). One ship of the class was lost at sea during service in World War I: USS Chauncey (DD-3), which collided with the British merchant ship SS Rose in 1917. The balance were decommissioned in 1919 and sold postwar in 1920, eleven to Joseph G. Hitner of Philadelphia, and the USS Hopkins (DD-6) to the Denton Shore Lumber Company in Tampa, Florida.

Subclasses
Some sources subdivide the Bainbridge class into subsidiary classes based on their builders' differing designs.
 * the first five vessels – Bainbridge, Barry, Chauncey, Dale and Decatur – shared a raised forecastle and had two widely-spaced pairs of funnels.
 * Hopkins and USS Hull (DD-7) had a turtledeck forward and may be considered to be Hopkins class. These had their two single torpedo tubes replaced by two twin torpedo tubes during World War I; total torpedoes remained at four.
 * USS Lawrence (DD-8) and USS Macdonough (DD-9) had a turtledeck forward, Fore River boilers, carried their funnels in only one group of four, and may be considered to be Lawrence class. In 1906 two additional 6-pounder guns were substituted for the two 3-inch guns to save weight.
 * USS Paul Jones (DD-10), USS Perry (DD-11) and USS Preble (DD-12) carried one twin torpedo tube instead of two singles beginning in World War I and may be considered to be Paul Jones class.
 * USS Stewart (DD-13) was equipped with Seabury boilers and was the fastest of the 400-tonners on trials at 29.7 kn, but her trial displacement of 444 LT is described as unrealistically light.

Origins
Some references, including contemporary ones, describe four ocean-going torpedo boats launched in 1898-1899 as the first US destroyers based on their tonnage, which ranged from 235 to 340 LT. These were USS Farragut (TB-11), USS Stringham (TB-19), USS Goldsborough (TB-20), and USS Bailey (TB-21). Stringham, the largest of these, was larger than some contemporary British destroyers. However, at 420 LT the Bainbridges were considerably larger and had a significantly greater gun armament than the four 6-pounders of the torpedo boats.

The Bainbridge class were produced on the recommendation of an 1898 war plans board formed to prosecute the Spanish–American War and chaired by Assistant Secretary of the Navy Theodore Roosevelt. The poor sea-keeping qualities of existing torpedo boats (such as the 165 LT USS Porter (TB-6)) and the existence of Spanish torpedo boat destroyers (such as the 370 LT SPANISH DESTROYER Furor) were cited as reasons for the US to build its own destroyers. The 13 Bainbridges were officially designated as the Navy's first TBDs when authorized by an Act of Congress on 4 May 1898 under the fiscal year 1899 program (with the remaining three being Truxtun-class destroyer).

Due to construction difficulties the Bainbridges were completed 1901–02, thus too late for the Spanish–American War. However, the destroyer type was instituted in the US Navy, as it had been in the Royal Navy around 1895 with the A-class destroyers. No further torpedo boats were constructed for the US Navy until the outbreak of World War II in Europe, and by then they had no design relationship to destroyers (see PT boats). The Imperial German Navy of 1898–1918 used the term "torpedo boat" for anything up to a large destroyer in size.

Armament
At 420 long tons normal displacement, the Bainbridges were twice as big as most previous torpedo boats. The extra displacement was used for a greatly increased gun armament and a sufficient engineering plant to rival the torpedo boats in speed (28 kn vs. 29 kn). The torpedo armament remained at two 18 in torpedo tubes; although the torpedo boat's mission was being transferred to the destroyer, apparently increased gun armament was more important to the designers than increased torpedo armament.

The gun armament of two 3 in/50 caliber guns and five 6-pounder (57 mm) guns was a great increase over the four 6-pounder guns of the torpedo boat Farragut. It reflected a desire to quickly disable torpedo boats before they could get within range of friendly battleships. Future destroyer classes included progressive increases in armament.

The class was equipped with one or two depth charge racks during World War I for the anti-submarine mission.

Engineering
The best available technologies of coal-fired boilers and triple-expansion engines were used for propulsion, although steam turbines would be adopted in the next generation of US destroyers, beginning with the Smith-class destroyer launched in 1908. The need for faster destroyers was to be a significant driver of naval propulsion technology throughout the type's future development.

Bainbridge had four Thornycroft boilers supplying 275 psi steam to two triple-expansion engines totaling 7000 ihp (design). She made 28.45 kn on trials at 8000 ihp. Normal coal capacity was 213 LT.

Hopkins also had four Thornycroft boilers supplying steam to two triple-expansion engines totaling 7,000 ihp (design). She made 29.02 kn on trials at 8456 ihp. Normal coal capacity was lower though, at 150 LT.

Lawrence had four Normand boilers supplying steam to two triple-expansion engines totaling 8400 ihp (design). She made 28.41 kn on trials 8,400 ihp. Normal coal capacity was even lower, at only 115 LT.

An interesting note on destroyers is that they have continuously increased in size since their inception. The Bainbridges were under 650 LT full load; some Arleigh Burke-class destroyers in service in 2013 displace 10800 LT full load, more than the standard displacement limit on 1920s Pensacola-class cruiser "Treaty cruisers".

Service
A few Bainbridges were deployed to the Philippines 1904-1917. During the US participation in World War I, these were redeployed to the Mediterranean as convoy escorts. Others of the class served in the Atlantic, on the US East Coast, or guarded the Panama Canal. Chauncey collided with the British merchant ship SS Rose in 1917 and was lost. Following the Armistice, the remainder were sold for scrapping or merchant conversion in 1920.

Ships in class
Note that, although the ships are listed below with the prefix "DD-" before their official numbers, this classification was not created until 1911, and until then these vessels were officially categorised as "Destroyer No. 1" to "Destroyer No. 13".

title: Bainbridge-class destroyer


text:
Hajji

Hajji (الحجّي; sometimes spelled Hajjeh, Hadji, Haji, Alhaji,  Al-Hadj, Al-Haj or El-Hajj) is an honorific title which is given to a Muslim person who has successfully completed the Hajj to Mecca.

Stemming from the same origin is the term Hadži or Χατζής, used by Orthodox Christians in some Balkan countries, which denotes people who have gone on pilgrimage to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem.

Etymology
Hajji is derived from the Arabic ḥājj, which is the active participle of the verb ḥajja ("to make the pilgrimage"). The alternative form ḥajjī is derived from the name of the Hajj with the adjectival suffix -ī, and this was the form adopted by non-Arabic languages.

Use
Hajji and its variant spellings are used as honorific titles for Muslims who have successfully completed the Hajj to Mecca.

In Arab countries, ḥājj and ḥājjah (pronunciation varies by Arabic dialect) is a commonly used manner of addressing any older person respectfully, regardless of whether or not the person in question has actually performed the pilgrimage. It is often used to refer to an elder, since it can take years to accumulate the wealth to fund the travel (particularly before commercial air travel), and in many Muslim societies to a respected man as an honorific title. The title is prefixed to a person's name; for example, Saif Gani becomes "Hajji Saif Gani".

In Malay-speaking countries, Haji and Hajah are titles given to Muslim males and females respectively who have performed the pilgrimage. These are abbreviated as Hj. and Hjh. (in Indonesian, it is H. and Hj.)

In Iran, the honorific title Haj (حاج) is sometimes used for IRGC commanders, instead of the title Sardar ("General"), such as for Qasem Soleimani.

Other religions
The term was borrowed in Balkan Christian countries formerly under Ottoman rule (Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece, Montenegro, North Macedonia and Romania), and are used for Christians who have travelled to Jerusalem and the Holy Lands. In some areas the title has been fossilised as a family name, for example in the surnames common among Bosniaks such as Hadžić, Hadžiosmanović ("son of Hajji Osman") etc.

In Cyprus, the title is so prevalent that it has also been permanently integrated into some Greek Christian surnames, such as Hajiioannou. This is due to Cyprus' long history of Christian and Muslim influence.

The title has also been used in some Jewish communities to honor those who made a pilgrimage to Jerusalem or other holy sites in Israel.

Ethnic slur
In the 21st century, American soldiers began using the term Haji as slang for Iraqis, Afghans, or Arab people in general. It is used in the way "gook" or "Charlie" was used by U.S military personnel during the Vietnam War.

title: Hajji


text:
Al-Hajj

Al-Ḥajj (الحج, ; meaning: "The Pilgrimage", "The Hajj") is the 22nd chapter (sūrah) of the Quran with 78 verses (āyāt). This surah takes its name from the 27th verse.

Summary

 * 1-2 The dreadful character of the Judgement Day
 * 3-4 Nadr ibn al-Harith rebuked for his infidelity
 * 5-7 Proofs of the doctrine of the resurrection
 * 8-10 Abu Jahl's obstinate infidelity and its punishment
 * 11-13 Hypocrites exposed and rebuked
 * 14 God will reward the righteous
 * 15-16 God will cause Muhammad and the Quran to triumph
 * 17 God will judge between the followers of conflicting faiths
 * ۩ 18 All creatures praise God
 * 19-24 The awful fate of unbelievers contrasted with the joy of believers
 * 25-26 Profaners of the Kaabah will be punished
 * 27 God appointed the site of the Kaabah an abode for Abraham
 * 28-32 The pilgrimage to Makkah instituted for Muslims
 * 32-35 Rites to be observed by the pilgrims
 * 36 Sacrifices appointed for the professors of every religion
 * 37 The humble believer encouraged
 * 38-39 The sacrifices at Madína symbolical of obedience to God
 * 40-43 War against infidels permitted when in self-defence
 * 44-45 All God's prophets have been accused of imposture
 * 46-47 Infidels blind to God's judgments on the ungodly
 * 48-49 Though God is forbearing he will punish unbelievers
 * 50 Muhammad a public preacher
 * 51-52 Reward and punishment of believers and infidels
 * 53-55 All prophets have been subject to Satanic deception
 * 56-58 The unbelievers incorrigible, but God will judge between them and the righteous
 * 59-60 Blessed condition of the Muhájjarín and martyrs
 * 61 Revenge of personal injuries permitted
 * 62-67 God the Creator and Preserver of all things
 * 68 Professors of other religions not to dispute with Muhammad
 * 69-70 How Muhammad should treat those who dispute with him
 * 71 The Omniscient God has decreed all things
 * 72 Idolaters have no proof from God for their idolatry
 * 73 Unbelievers (Quraish) ready to use violence towards the Muslims
 * 74 The Makkan idols unable to keep the flies off themselves
 * 75 Idolaters have a low estimate of the power of God
 * 76 God chooses messengers from among men and angels
 * ۩ 77 God knoweth all things, and all shall return to him
 * 78 True believers exhorted to worship God and to fight in defence of his religion. Muslims exhorted to be steadfast in the faith of their father Abraham

Background
The Sacred Mosque and the Pilgrimage (Ḥajj) were originally dedicated to God, but fell to idolatry in contemporary times, while worshippers of God had been suspended from visiting it. In this manner, consent for taking up arms against those despots has been given to remove them from that point and to set up the upright lifestyle for setting up prudence and eradicating evil. As indicated by Ibn Abbas, Mujahid, Urwah ibn Zubayr, Zayd ibn Aslam, Muqatil ibn Hayyan, Qatadah and other commentators, verse 39 is the first that gives the Muslims authorization to take up arms. Various hadiths and books on the life of Muhammad affirm that after this consent, real arrangements for war were begun and the very first expedition was sent to the shore of the Red Sea in Safar, known as the Patrol of Waddan.

Topic and theme
This surah addresses: (1) The mushriks of Makkah, (2) the faltering Muslims, and (3) the genuine devotees. The mushriks have been cautioned in a mighty way with this impact: "You have adamantly and impudently persevered in your thoughts of ignorance and confided in your false-deities rather than Allah, however, they have no force at all and you have denied the Divine Messenger. Resultantly you will meet a similar end as has been the doom of those like you previously. You have just hurt yourselves by dismissing Our Prophet and by aggrieving the best of your own people; your false-deities will not have the option to spare you from the rage of God". Simultaneously, they have been advised consistently for their doctrine of shirk and sound contentions have been given for Tauhid and the Hereafter.

The faltering Muslims, who entered Islam, yet did not want to face any difficulty in its path, have been advised with this impact: "What is this faith of yours? From one viewpoint, you are prepared to have faith in Allah and become His workers given you are harmony and thriving, and if you meet with torments and hardships in His path, you dispose of your Allah and stop to remain His servant. You should remember that this faltering disposition of yours can't deflect those incidents and misfortunes which Allah has appointed for you."

As respects the genuine devotees, they have been tended to in two different ways: (1) in a general route to incorporate the average folks of Arabia additionally, and (2) in an exclusive way:

 * 1) The Adherents have been informed that the mushriks of Makkah reserved no option to suspend them from visiting the Holy Mosque. They reserved no privilege to keep anybody from performing Hajj because the Holy Mosque was not their personal property. This complaint was advocated as well as went about as a powerful political weapon against the Quraish. For it suggested this conversation starter to different clans of Arabia: Were the Quraish insignificant orderlies of the Blessed Mosque or its proprietors? It suggested that if they prevailing with regards to suspending the Muslims from Hajj with no dissent from others, they would feel urged in the future to suspend from Hajj and Umrah the individuals of whatever other clan or faction, who had stressed relations with the Quraish. To underscore this point, the historical backdrop of the construction of the Sacred Mosque has been referred to show that it was worked by Prophet Abraham by the Order of Allah and he had welcomed all the people groups to perform Hajj there. That is the reason those originating from outside had delighted in equivalent rights by the neighborhood individuals from the earliest starting point. It has likewise been clarified that that House had not been worked for the ceremonies of shirk but for the love of One Allah. Hence it was sheer oppression that the worship of Allah was being prohibited there while the worship of idols appreciated full permit.
 * 2) To tackle the oppression of the Quraish, the Muslims were permitted to battle with them. They were likewise provided with instruction to adopt the right and just behavior as and when they procured capacity to lead in the land. Additionally, the Adherents have been formally given the name of "Muslims", saying, "You are the genuine heirs of Abraham and you have been chosen to become witnesses of Truth before humankind. In this way, you ought to establish salat and pay the zakat obligations to turn into the best models of equitable life and perform Jihad for spreading the word of Allah."

Principal subject
The significant issues, divine laws, and guidance direction in the text of the discourse can be categorized as follows:
 * 1) A scene from the Hour of Fate.
 * 2) Human life cycle: life right now and then in the Hereafter.
 * 3) The conduct of those people who were remaining at the border of faith is recognized.
 * 4) The way that Allah consistently helps His Rasools.
 * 5) Divine law conceding equivalent rights to all believers in Masjid-al-Haram, regardless of whether they are locals or outsiders.
 * 6) The way that Allah Himself distinguished the site and asked Prophet Ibrahim to manufacture the Kaaba and call humanity to perform Hajj.
 * 7) Somebody who commits Shirk resembles the one who tumbles from the sky and his body is grabbed away by the birds.
 * 8) It isn't the blood or the tissue of a sacrificed animal that arrives Allah yet the devotion of the person who is offering the sacrifice.
 * 9) The 1st Instruction of Allah allowing consent to the devotees to shield themselves and battle against the disbelievers and mushrikin.
 * 10) Upon the arrival of Judgment, Allah Himself will be the Adjudicator for all.
 * 11) Allah's guarantee to the individuals who relocate for the sake of Allah that He will compensate them generously.
 * 12) Allah called the devotees Muslims in the earlier sacred writings and in the Qur'an as well.

title: Al-Hajj


text:
Talk:Inside Out (Dive album)

Fair use rationale for Image:Dive-Inside Out.jpg
Image:Dive-Inside Out.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 21:33, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

title: Talk:Inside Out (Dive album)


text:
Talk:Concrete Jungle (Dive album)

Concrete Jungle song?
To be honest, the Bob Marley song "Concrete Jungle" is way better known than this album... A disambiguation is unevitable here. -- CdaMVvWgS 16:35, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Dive-Concrete Jungle.jpg
Image:Dive-Concrete Jungle.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 21:25, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

title: Talk:Concrete Jungle (Dive album)


text:
Shannon, New Zealand

Shannon is a small town in the Horowhenua District of New Zealand's North Island. it is located 28 kilometres southwest of Palmerston North and 15 kilometres northeast of Levin.

The main activities in the district are dairy, sheep, and mixed farming. Mangaore (5 kilometres east) is the residential township for the nearby Mangahao hydro-electric power station, which was the second power station to be built in New Zealand and the first to be built by the government. The power station is the oldest still supplying power to New Zealand grid. The Manawatu River lies to the west of the town.

A large percentage of the population is Māori with the local primary school representing kaupapa Māori.

History
Shannon originally adjoined extensive swamps and was a headquarters for flax milling. The land on which the township later stood was part of an endowment of 215000 acre acquired about 1881 by the Wellington and Manawatu Railway Company (WMR). At first the company had intended to extend its railway from Levin to Foxton, but afterwards it proceeded to develop and open up the endowment area. Accordingly, the line was laid along the present route via Shannon. The town is considered to have been founded on 8 March 1887 when the first auction of town land was held. Shannon was named after George Vance Shannon (1842–1920), a director of the WMR. It was constituted a borough in 1917.

Mangahao Power Station tragedy
On 2 July 1922 seven workers were poisoned by carbon monoxide while digging the tunnels for the Mangahao Power Station.

When the extractor fan broke down, Bernard Butler and foreman Alfred Maxwell were killed by suffocation from the fumes being emitted by their oil engines. A subsequent search party of five of their colleagues also suffocated and perished in the tunnel.

Demographics
Shannon is defined by Statistics New Zealand as a small urban area and covers 2.94 km2. It had an estimated population of as of  with a population density of  people per km2.

Shannon had a population of 1,398 at the 2018 New Zealand census, an increase of 162 people (13.1%) since the 2013 census, and an increase of 36 people (2.6%) since the 2006 census. There were 537 households, comprising 681 males and 720 females, giving a sex ratio of 0.95 males per female. The median age was 40.4 years (compared with 37.4 years nationally), with 291 people (20.8%) aged under 15 years, 261 (18.7%) aged 15 to 29, 630 (45.1%) aged 30 to 64, and 216 (15.5%) aged 65 or older.

Ethnicities were 78.5% European/Pākehā, 43.1% Māori, 2.8% Pasifika, 1.7% Asian, and 1.3% other ethnicities. People may identify with more than one ethnicity.

The percentage of people born overseas was 7.3, compared with 27.1% nationally.

Although some people chose not to answer the census's question about religious affiliation, 53.6% had no religion, 30.9% were Christian, 1.7% had Māori religious beliefs, 0.9% were Buddhist and 2.4% had other religions.

Of those at least 15 years old, 87 (7.9%) people had a bachelor's or higher degree, and 393 (35.5%) people had no formal qualifications. The median income was $21,300, compared with $31,800 nationally. 48 people (4.3%) earned over $70,000 compared to 17.2% nationally. The employment status of those at least 15 was that 405 (36.6%) people were employed full-time, 153 (13.8%) were part-time, and 84 (7.6%) were unemployed.

Town facilities and attractions

Today Shannon sits as a passing through point between Palmerston North, the Horowhenua, Kapiti and Wellington with public toilet facilities, two cafes, a dairy, an RD1 rural supply store, a fish and chip shop, a primary school, a Four Square grocer, a petrol station and an art gallery.

The township has rugby, netball and lawn bowling clubs.

Shannon Railway Station is the most substantial of only a few remaining physical relics of the WMR, which was acquired by the national New Zealand Railways Department in 1908. The station is a stop for the Capital Connection long distance commuter train between Wellington and Palmerston North.

Owlcatraz
Owlcatraz was a native bird and wildlife park and one of Shannon's prime attractions. It was opened in 1997 by Ross & Janet Campbell and operated by them until it was sold 23 years later. Owlcatraz had over one million visitors in that time.

Helen's town / Flaxville
The town used to house the creative work of Helen Pratt which consisted of a large model town with miniature versions of many New Zealand landmarks and buildings, a working train and carnival, all hand made. The display used to be housed at 36 Stout Street until the building was closed in the 1990s.

Helen subsequently built another town. Helen's collection was shown to the public for brief period of time known as Flaxville at 16 Ballance Street. Helen's Collection has left Shannon and was later displayed at Murrayfield, a museum between Shannon and Levin on State 57.

Education
Shannon School is a co-educational state primary school for Year 1 to 8 students, with a roll of  as of.

The nearest high schools located in levin and Foxton both towns are within a 10-16 minute drive offering three high school options, Waiopehu college, Horowhenua college and Manawatu college

Schools in the nearest major city Palmerston North could also considered with a short drive ranging from around 20-30 minutes

title: Shannon, New Zealand


text:
Tommy Hunter

Thomas James Hunter, CM, O.Ont (born March 20, 1937) is a Canadian country music performer, known as "Canada's Country Gentleman".

Career
In 1956, he began performing as a rhythm guitarist on the CBC Television show, Country Hoedown. The Tommy Hunter Show began as a CBC Radio program in 1960, replacing the long-running variety show The Happy Gang, and went on to replace Country Hoedown on CBC Television in 1965; Hunter's show was picked up by TNN in 1983 and ran on CBC until 1992. Performers on the show included singer-songwriter Gordon Lightfoot in the early years of his own musical career.

The book Cue the Elephant by Knowlton Nash (1996, McClelland & Stewart) featured some disparaging remarks from the show's make-up artist. "He could sell himself terrifically but there was no love lost between Tommy and the crew. Some of the guys loathed him ... Everybody made snide remarks behind Tommy's back ... people might say he was the biggest jerk in the world. But that was not my experience. For me, I saw a very easy down-to-earth manner. But Tommy does generate anti as well as pro feelings from people ... he didn't trust people around him, he became a monster to some."

People who performed on The Tommy Hunter Show early in their careers include:
 * Garth Brooks
 * Shania Twain, then known as Eileen Twain
 * The Judds
 * Yvonne Murray

After his show was cancelled by the CBC, Hunter continued to tour with his band, The Travelling Men. He retired after his final tour in 2012.

Awards and recognition
Hunter was inducted into the Canadian Country Music Hall of Fame in 1984. In 1986, Hunter was made a Member of the Order of Canada. He has received three Canadian Juno Awards and one Gemini Award. In 1990, he was given a place in the Country Music Hall of Fame's "Walkway of Stars". A street ("Tommy Hunter Way") was also renamed in his honour in his hometown of London, Ontario, in the late 1990s. He became a member of the Order of Ontario in 1996. In 2005 he was honored with a GMA Canada Lifetime Achievement Award. The award is handed out annually by the Gospel Music Association of Canada.

Tommy Hunter received the Queen Elizabeth II Golden Jubilee Medal in 2002 and the Queen Elizabeth II Diamond Jubilee Medal in 2012.

title: Tommy Hunter


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Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship/Squash

Message to opposers Requests for adminship/Squash

 * Reply to A.D Hair - One thing that I would like to say is that the Squash on Wikipedia is totally different then that on the IRC channel. The Wikipedia channel on Freeenode is for discussions that go off topic and is there for people to enjoy themselves. As you can see in my contributions there has been none (As far as I know) inmature behaviour - not even one instance of lol, pwn, hehe or whatever. I would also like to say that you don't know very well apart from the Wikipedia channel. Your joined the Wikipedia on May the 14th 2004 and have 697 edits - in that that have you ever even seen one contribution of mine? You only know me on the IRC channel and not on the Wikipedia itself and then you come to the conclusion that just because I have some fun times on IRC means that I am a bad Wikipedia user. The IRC Squash has nothing to do with the _Wikipedia_ Squash. And because this is a Request for adminship on _Wikipedia_. On the Wikipedia I have over 4700+ edits and have 6 months experience with the Wikipedia. That is enough maturity and is past the benchmark for many of the voters. I well not get disheartened by your opposition as I think that I deserve this adminship after my service to the Wikipedia. I want you to have a look at my userpage and then my contributions then reconsider your decision. As I think that your decision is harsh and that your decision was based on what is outside the Wikipedia itself. People who have supported me, _know_ that I will be a suitable adminstrator, most of them are admins themselves. [[User:Squash|Squash (Talk)]] 06:35, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * Reply to Reene - If you do not support my adminship then that is fine. But to call me a troll... As I have said to A.D. Hair. If you have looked at my contributions, my talk and everything I have done for Wikipedia. No contributions have been the work of a troll. I really would like to know who the 'other people' who also think I am this type of thing are. If you do not even say the names, then I assume that you are only saying that I am a troll out of your own mouth. On the IRC channel - if a sysop even thought I was a troll or think my actions were not suitable they would have gave me a caution. I didn't even get a caution - let alone a kick or even a ban... As well as that, like A.D. Hair it is a weak chance you have even seen my behaviour let alone the contributions on Wikipedia. For the record, you have been here since the 2nd of September and have 520 edits. Many of the supporter are admins with thousands of edits. They have seen it all (The good and the bad) with have in most - if not always experienced all of it. They know what is best for Wikipedia. [[User:Squash|Squash (Talk)]] 07:12, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * Reply to Aaron Brick - Jimbo said on his userpage that anyone can edit his page. And that I did, if he didn't like what you have called 'vandalism' why would he have moved it to User:Jimbo_Wales/Funny_pictures ?. He even said in the edit summary of the revert that he thought it was funny. It was funny but it was just at not the correct spot. And a whole entire page of funny picture is dedicated to him. He even told me on IRC, that he found my parody of him very funny. Ask Jimbo himself, if you have any doubts. [[User:Squash|Squash (Talk)]] 09:37, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * Reply to Netoholic and David Monniaux - For Netholic No comment. and for David, See the full list Contribs. There are plenty apart from image tagging. And why did you require a second edit to add 'wierd behaviour on IRC' it is rather strange and it is possible that people off IRC could have talked you into making such as decision. Just a thought. [[User:Squash|Squash (Talk)]] 11:57, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)


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Surigaonon language

Surigaonon is an Austronesian language spoken by Surigaonon people. As a regional Philippine language, it is spoken in the province of Surigao del Norte, Dinagat Islands, Surigao del Sur, and some portions of Agusan del Norte, especially the towns near Lake Mainit, Agusan del Sur and Davao Oriental.

External relationships
Surigaonon refers to the people and the language of the people of Surigao del Sur and del Norte. It is composed of ethnic languages of Surigao the mix version of Surigao's ethnic language and Cebuano. It has been heavily influenced by Cebuano due to the influx of many Cebuanos in the region. However, most Cebuano speakers can hardly understand Surigaonon speakers, except for Cebuanos who have been living in the region for years.

Surigaonon is very closely related to the Tausug language of Sulu and the Butuanon language of Butuan.

Tandaganon
Tandaganon (also called Tinandag, Naturalis, Tagon-on) is a closely related variety spoken in Tandag and central Surigao del Sur municipalities of San Miguel, Tago, Bayabas, Cagwait, Marihatag, San Agustin, and most of Lianga. It can be classified as a separate language or alternatively as a southern variety of Surigaonon. There are about 100,000 speakers.

Surigaonon
Surigaonon (also called Jaun-Jaun, Waya-Waya) itself on the other hand is the northern (Surigao del Norte) variety, with about 400,000 speakers. Surigaonon speakers are distributed throughout Surigao del Norte, northern Surigao del Sur, and northern Agusan del Norte. Surigaonon and Tandaganon speakers can understand each other well, even if they use their own languages in conversation (similar to the mutual intelligibility between the Boholano dialect and the general Cebuano dialect).

Together, Surigaonon and Tandaganon are spoken in Surigao del Norte and most parts of Surigao del Sur, except in the City of Bislig, municipalities of Barobo, Hinatuan, Lingig, and Tagbina. In the non-Surigaonon-speaking areas of Surigao, most of the inhabitants are descended from Cebuano-speaking migrants, and the rest are natives who speak Kamayo, a Mansakan language.

Phonology
According to Dumanig (2015), Surigaonon has a similar phonological inventory as its sister Bisayan languages, Cebuano and Boholano.

Vowels
Below is the vowel system of Surigaonon.

Consonants
Below is a chart of Surigaonon consonants.

Note: is spelled y,  is spelled j and  is spelled ng.

title: Surigaonon language


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Carl Großmann

Carl Friedrich Wilhelm Großmann (13 December 1863 – 5 July 1922) was a German serial killer, sexual predator, and alleged cannibal, though it was never proven that he cannibalized his victims. He killed himself while awaiting the end of his trial without giving a full confession, leaving the extent of his crimes and motives largely unknown.

Early life
Little is known about Carl Großmann's early life, except that he had sadistic sexual tastes and had several convictions for child molestation. As a young man, he served a 15-year prison sentence for fondling a ten-year-old girl and for brutally raping a four-year-old girl (who died shortly after the judgement).

During World War I, Großmann sold meat on the black market and even had a hot dog stand at a train station near his home. Some believed the meat contained the remains of his victims, as he threw some of their bones and other inedible parts into the river. Pieces of missing women were found in the canal near Andreas Square and off the Luisenstadt Canal, sometimes on a daily basis, which led some investigators to suspect that Großmann murdered up to 100 women and girls.

Arrest
On 21 August 1921, Großmann was arrested at his apartment in Berlin after neighbours heard screams and banging noises, followed by silence. The police burst into the apartment, finding on the bed the body of a young woman who had recently been murdered. Großmann was taken into custody and charged with murder.

Neighbours reported that he seemed to have had a steady supply of female companions, mostly destitute-looking young women, over the previous few years. Many went into the apartment, but few emerged from it. How many lives Großmann took is not known. Only the body of his final victim was found, along with bloodstains in the apartment that indicated at least three other persons had been butchered in the few weeks leading up to his arrest.

One 1921 report claims Großmann had confessed to about twenty murders over twenty years. A 1922 report claims that Großmann had admitted to killing four women. Some have suggested as many as 50 women entered Großmann's apartment and ended up being murdered and dismembered.

Großmann was not convicted of murder, because he hanged himself in his prison cell before the end of the main trial.

title: Carl Großmann


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Transylvania Regional Hospital

Transylvania Regional Hospital (TRH), formerly known as Transylvania Community Hospital, is a Joint Commission on Accreditation of Healthcare Organizations accredited 94-bed community hospital. It was formed in 1933 and is located between downtown Brevard and the entrance to Pisgah National Forest in Transylvania County, North Carolina. It is operated by Mission Health System.

title: Transylvania Regional Hospital


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Manawatū Plains

The Manawatu Plains is an area of low-lying land in New Zealand, located on the floodplains of the Manawatū and Rangitīkei Rivers. It is some of the most fertile lands in the southwestern North Island.

Stretching from the northern Horowhenua around Levin in the south to Marton in the north, the triangular area of land extends inland from the South Taranaki Bight to almost as far as Ashhurst at the mouth of the Manawatū Gorge. It covers an area of around 1000 km2.

In the south, around Lake Horowhenua, the plains were once an extensive wetland, which has been largely drained and turned into profitable dairy farming land. There are conservation moves in progress to restore some of these wetlands to their former state.

Further north, the plains provide the basis for the economy which drives the city of Palmerston North and the towns of Foxton, Feilding, and Bulls, all of which rely on the agricultural dollar to an extent.

As floodplains, the land is not always entirely dry. Although the area receives slightly below the national average rainfall, floods can occur, as happened around the township of Tangimoana in early 2004.

title: Manawatū Plains


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User talk:4.10.22.128

"Maynilad" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Maynilad&redirect=no Maynilad] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Anyone, including you, is welcome to comment on this redirect at until a consensus is reached. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 10:33, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

title: User talk:4.10.22.128


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Brassed Off

Brassed Off is a 1996 British comedy-drama film written and directed by Mark Herman and starring Pete Postlethwaite, Tara Fitzgerald and Ewan McGregor.

The film is about the troubles faced by a colliery brass band, following the closure of their pit. The soundtrack for the film was provided by the Grimethorpe Colliery Band, and the plot is based on Grimethorpe's own struggles against pit closures. It has been generally very positively received for its role in promoting brass bands and their music. Parts of the film make reference to the huge increase in suicides that resulted from the end of the coal industry in Britain, and the struggle to retain hope in the circumstances.

In the United States, the film was promoted simply as a romantic comedy involving McGregor and Fitzgerald's characters.

Context
The film is set ten years after the year-long strike in 1984–85 by the National Union of Mineworkers in Britain. Before the privatisation of British Coal, a wave of pit closures took place. Depleted of resources and in debt following the labour militancy of 1984–85, the miners were unable to continue a resistance against the policies of the government. Many had been in debt ever since the long strike, and were prepared to take redundancy money whilst it was on offer.

The National Coal Board (NCB) arranged private ballots to determine between closing a pit immediately with compulsory redundancies or taking a pit to a review procedure to determine whether the pit should be privatised. Although miners had a tradition of fighting for their jobs, the risk of losing the redundancy money on offer by going forwards to privatisation swung the votes in most ballots to be in favour of pit closure and redundancy. The loss of hope, pride and fighting spirit in previously proud mining communities was the basis for the idea of being "brassed off", an expression used in the North of England meaning "angry".

Beginning in early 1993, groups of miners' wives camped outside some pits' gates and outside the Department of Trade and Industry in London. This is referred to in the film. It contrasts with the muted response from the mineworkers, some of whom sang Shut the pit! to the tune of the song Here We Go! from the 1984–85 strike.

Plot
Gloria Mullins has been sent to her home town of Grimley to determine the profitability of the pit for the management of British Coal. She also plays the flugelhorn, and is allowed to play with the local brass band after playing Concierto de Aranjuez, affectionately known as “Orange Juice” by the characters, with them. The band is made up of miners from whom she must conceal her purpose. She renews a childhood romance with Andy Barrow, which soon leads to complications. Andy is bitter about the programme of pit closures and determined to fight on, but is also realistic about the circumstances and predicts a 4-to-1 majority for closure and redundancy.

When Andy realises Gloria is working for management, he accuses her of naïvety for thinking the Coal Board is even considering the pit's future and argues that the decision to close would have been made years earlier. It is later revealed, during a confrontation between Gloria and colliery management, that the decision was made two years prior and was to have proceeded regardless of her findings. The report was simply a PR exercise to placate the miners and sympathetic members of the public.

The passionate band conductor Danny Ormondroyd finds he's fighting a losing battle to keep the rest of the band committed. His son Phil is badly in debt and becomes a clown for children's parties, but this fails to prevent his wife and children leaving him. In debt, Phil votes for the redundancy money, which he becomes ashamed of. As Danny collapses in the street and is hospitalised, Phil suffers a mental breakdown while entertaining a group of children as part of a harvest festival in a church. He refers to himself as "Coco the scab"—a name he was called by a debt collector whom he had asked to wait until the redundancy money came through. Eventually, Phil tries to hang himself but is taken to the hospital. Phil reveals to Danny that in light of the colliery's closure, the band has decided not to continue playing.

When band member Jim realises Gloria is working for management, he is unimpressed with Andy's relationship with her. In a pub conversation, the other miners are not particularly concerned and feel Jim is being too harsh. When Andy says he should be old enough to make his own decisions, Jim responds with, "Old enough to be a scab, then?" The pub falls silent, as the word was an extremely serious insult in a mining community and implies treachery to the working class. Jim then withdraws the insult and says that Andy is just "stupid". Later, Jim asks Gloria to leave the band and mocks her attempts to fund the band's trip to the National Finals.

Intending it to be their last performance, the band, in full uniform and wearing their miners' helmets and lamps, plays Danny Boy (the famous Percy Grainger arrangement of Londonderry Air) late at night outside the hospital. Andy, having lost his tenor horn in a bet, whistles along with his hands in his pockets. After they finish, they all switch off their lamps.

Whilst the band is playing in the National Semi-Finals, the outcome of the ballot is announced as 4-to-1 in favour of redundancy, as Andy had predicted.

After Gloria sets up a bank account to fund travel to the National Finals, the band is brought back together to compete. Andy wins his tenor horn back in a game of pool. The band forgives Gloria when she gives them her earnings from compiling the report (rejecting it because it's "dirty money") and travels to the final at the Royal Albert Hall in London (Birmingham Town Hall was used to film these scenes), where they are amused by the inability of the woman on the dressing room's PA system to pronounce 'colliery'.

Before departing, Phil leaves a note for Danny saying they are going to the finals. Danny arrives just in time to see the band win the competition with a stirring rendition of the William Tell Overture finale, during which Phil notices his wife and children in the audience. Danny refuses to accept the trophy; he states that only human beings matter and not music or the trophy. He continues, "This bloody government has systematically destroyed an entire industry. Our industry. And not just our industry—our communities, our homes, our lives. All in the name of 'progress'. And for a few lousy bob."

However, following this gesture, Jim takes the trophy anyway. The band celebrates their victory as Andy and Gloria kiss on the upper deck of an open-topped bus travelling through London, while Danny leads the band in Land of Hope and Glory.

Cast

 * Ewan McGregor as Andy Barrow, the band's tenor horn player
 * Pete Postlethwaite as Danny Ormondroyd, the band's conductor
 * Tara Fitzgerald as Gloria Mullins, the band's flugelhorn player
 * Stephen Tompkinson as Phil Ormondroyd, the band's trombone player
 * Jim Carter as Harry, the band's euphonium player
 * Philip Jackson as Jim, one of the band's tuba player
 * Peter Martin as Ernie, one of the band's tuba players
 * Melanie Hill as Sandra Ormondroyd
 * Lill Roughley as Rita
 * Sue Johnston as Vera
 * Mary Healey as Ida
 * Stephen Moore as McKenzie, the colliery manager
 * Peter Gunn as Simmo
 * Bernard Wrigley as Chapman
 * Katherine Dow Blyton as Nurse
 * Sally Ann Matthews as Waitress

Production
The film is set in "Grimley" in the mid-1990s, which is a thin veil for Grimethorpe, a mining village in South Yorkshire which had been named as the poorest village in Britain in 1994 by the European Union. The nearby areas of the Dearne Valley and the Hemsworth area were also identified as in need of serious aid.

The hospital scene, with Pete Postlethwaite in bed, was filmed at Doncaster College, not a hospital. The festival scene in Delph was filmed on Monday 23 October 1995.

The soundtrack for the film was recorded by the Grimethorpe Colliery Band, the story roughly reflects Grimethorpe Colliery Band's history, and the film was largely shot in Grimethorpe.

Reception
Brassed Off received an 80% approval rating on Rotten Tomatoes based on 49 reviews, with an average rating of 6.8/10. The site's critics consensus reads: "Brassed Off combines inspiring drama with populist socioeconomics to create a film whose familiar outlines are filled in with genuine and surprisingly palpable emotion."

The film was one of Film Four Distributors first major releases and opened on 203 screens in the UK with a gross of £466,058 in its opening weekend, finishing third at the UK box office behind Dragonheart and The Nutty Professor. It went on to gross £2,128,437 in the UK.

The film's reputation has grown considerably since its initial release. Brassed Off is ranked 85th on the BFI list of Top 100 British Films A reevaluation in 2018 concluded, "Like Danny’s speech at the Royal Albert Hall, the film is honest, poignant and powerful. Twenty years on, its message is still all too relevant. And the music is bloody great, by the way."

Soundtrack
The film score for Brassed Off includes a large number of pieces from the brass band repertoire, played by the Grimethorpe Colliery Band conducted by John Anderson, alongside an original score composed by Trevor Jones.

Stage adaptation
Paul Allen adapted Mark Herman's screenplay for the stage, the production premiering at the Crucible Theatre Sheffield on 17 March 1998, with music performed by the Grimethorpe Colliery Band. The play transferred to the Royal National Theatre in June before embarking on a UK tour. In 2014 a new UK tour was mounted by the Touring Consortium Theatre Company, coinciding with the thirtieth anniversary of the miners' strike.

In popular culture
A sample of a monologue performed by the main character Danny (Pete Postlethwaite) is used in the opening of the song "Tubthumping", on the 1997 Chumbawamba album Tubthumper: "Truth is, I thought it mattered; I thought that music mattered. But does it bollocks! Not compared to how people matter".

title: Brassed Off


text:
Muller

Muller is a surname. Notable people with the surname include:

A–H

 * A. Charles Muller (born 1953), translator
 * Bauke Muller (born 1962), Dutch bridge player
 * Bennie Muller (born 1938), Dutch footballer
 * Bill Muller (1965–2007), US journalist
 * Bobby Muller (born 1946), Vietnam veteran
 * Carl Muller (1935–2019), Sri Lankan Burgher writer, poet, and journalist
 * Christiaan Alexander Muller (2023-2004), Dutch radio astronomer
 * David E. Muller (1924–2008), American mathematician and computer scientist
 * Derek Muller (born 1982), science communicator
 * Dominique Muller (born 1949), French writer
 * Édouard Muller (painter) (1823–1876), Swiss-French painter
 * Édouard Muller (cyclist) (1919–1997), French road racing cyclist
 * Ellen Preis (Ellen Müller-Preis) (1912–2007), German-born Austrian fencer
 * Émile Muller (1915–1988), French politician
 * Filinto Muller (1900-1973), Brazilian politician
 * Franck Muller (born 1958), Swiss watchmaker
 * François Muller (1764–1808), French general of the French Revolutionary Wars
 * Frank Muller (1951–2008), Dutch audio book narrator and actor
 * Frans Muller (born 1960/61), Dutch businessman
 * Frederick Muller (1861–1946), American Medal of Honor recipient
 * Gary Muller (born 1964), South African tennis player
 * Germain Muller (1923–1994), French playwright, actor, poet, humourist, politician
 * Hendrik Pieter Nicolaas Muller (1859–1941), Dutch businessman, publicist, and diplomat
 * Henry J. Muller (1917-2022), American brigadier general
 * Henry J. Muller (CERDEC), American commanding general
 * Herbert J. Muller (1905–1980), American historian, academic, government official and author
 * Hermann Joseph Muller (1890–1967), US geneticist (Muller's ratchet) and educator
 * Muller (footballer, born 1986), Muller Santos da Silva, Brazilian football striker

J–Z

 * Jacques Muller (politician) (born 1954), French politician
 * Jacques Léonard Muller (1749–1824), French army commander of the French Revolutionary Wars
 * Jean M. Muller (1925–2005), French structural engineer
 * Jim Muller, co-founder of Voice of the Faithful
 * Judy Muller, American journalist
 * Kirk Muller (born 1966), Canadian hockey player
 * Kyle Muller (born 1997), American baseball player
 * Lucien Muller (born 1934), French footballer and manager
 * Luke Muller (born 1996), American sailor and Olympian
 * Mae Muller (born 1997), English singer-songwriter
 * Mancow Muller (born 1966), American radio and television personality
 * Marcia Muller (born 1944), American mystery writer
 * Mervin E. Muller (1928–2018), American computer scientist
 * Oscar Muller (1957–2005), Argentine footballer
 * Peter Muller (Canadian football) (born 1951), Canadian football player
 * Peter Paul Muller (born 1965), Dutch actor
 * Pieter Muller (born 1969), South African rugby player
 * Ramon Muller (1935–1986), Argentine footballer
 * Richard A. Muller (born 1944), American physicist
 * Robert Muller (1923–2010), United Nations employee
 * Romeo Muller (1928–1992), American actor and writer
 * Scott Muller (canoeist) (born 1970), Panamanian canoer
 * Scott Muller (cricketer) (born 1971), Australian cricketer
 * Shulamith Muller (1922–1978). South African lawyer, communist, and anti-apartheid activist
 * Sophie Muller (born 1962), British music video director
 * Steven Muller (1927–2013), president of Johns Hopkins University
 * Victor Muller (born 1959), Dutch entrepreneur
 * Virginie Duby-Muller (born 1979), French politician
 * Yvan Muller (born 1969), French auto racing driver
 * Thomas Muller (born 1989), German football player for FC Bayern Munich

Fictional characters

 * Caroline "Cathy" Muller, fictional character created by Tom Clancy, wife of Jack Ryan
 * Rudolfine Muller, a character from Strike Witches
 * Jake Muller, Albert Wesker's illegitimate son and protagonist of the video game Resident Evil 6
 * Jerry Muller, a character in the 1934 film The Man Who Changed His Name

title: Muller