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Talk:Punk rock/Archive 1

Missing from this article is the origin of the use of the word "punk" to describe the music. So far, it says it was used to describe the Stooges, etc. but I think that was after the fact. When was "punk" used to describe what was happening in '76?? Peace.

 * In the book Please Kill Me: The Uncensored Oral History of Punk, it is claimed that Legs McNeil (founder of Punk magazine) coined the term 'punk' to describe the genre. Does anyone know more?  ~Resister 10:35 May 31, 2004  (UTC)

--- 12/08/02 -- OK. Someone has really messed with this page. "PRE-PUNK?"...Oh, please. Is that really necessary? Work the references into the essay, if you must. But this list thing has become exhaustive to the point of absurdity.

Someone (else) edit the page...I have a headache just looking at it.

 * 1-There's no need to use all caps. 2-If you have information, why don't you edit?  3-Why not sign your name? -- Zoe

 * 1-OK, I edited my comments and took out all caps. 2-I have a lot of information, but I still have the aforementioned headache. It took a lot of energy to edit my own comments, anyway. 3-Because I am shy.  Thank you

 * I think the lists serve a purpose- many subjects (eg, flowers, herbs, painters, recipes, etc) have a separate 'list of' page, acting as a handy index, I suppose separate pages could be set up for 'list of pre-punk bands', 'list of first wave punk bands', 'list of punk films', etc, etc, all linked from the punk rock page (I've already set up separate pages for Anarcho-punk and Post punk), but OTOH it's quite convenient that they are all on the same page.... Tho I agree it's starting to look cluttered... BTW, one person's 'second wave' punk band might be another's 'first wave', depending on how long their career lasted (eg, Dead Kennedies), but there's no reason why such bands can't be included in both lists... So do we clear the lists from the punk rock page to be replaced by links to separate relevant 'list of' pages for the various headings? What do other's think?? quercus robur 19:29 Dec 9, 2002 (UTC)

 * I'm afraid I've acted unilaterally as nobody seemed to object to the idea of setting up links to the 'list' pages and moving the lists accordingly(OK, so nobody said they thought it was a good idea either, but there y'go...), the ever growing lists are now on separate pages which may or may not be easier to add to, but will at least kep the main 'punk rock' page cleaner and less cluttered... I've also moved all the links so that each list page also has the other links to relevant areas quercus robur 18:30 Dec 13, 2002 (UTC)

 * NICE WORK, QUERCUSROBUR! :) --George S.

--- Who's really punk flame war:

Well, its coming, inevitably. What can anyone do about it?

Perhaps the most punk thing someone could do is to have two extremely angry people screaming at each other about who is really punk... or is that the least punk thing to do?

Changed "West coast" To "allmost anywhere" on my edit.

Limiting punk to 1976-1980 is a blatant falsehood and based on nothing more than the same mania for encapsulating intellectual or cultural movements into neat historical periods that lying states that surrealism ended in 1945, or 1966, or whatever (all evidence to the contrary!). --Daniel C. Boyer

 * ''Yeah, I never liked strict time frames like that, either. Movements and scenes flow into one another more loosely.  But I wouldn't go so far as to call it a "blatant falsehood" or mania to distinguish that first explosion of punk rock around '76 to '80 onto the music scene from later scenes that carried the baton.

-- Is it really necessary to have such a huge list of "important bands?" After all, important bands like The Birthday Party and Gang of Four aren't even on it, but I don't suggest that they be added, necessarily. Maybe a lot of these bands (like the Adverts, The Cramps, etc.) can be woven into the essay.

Just a thought.

I've added a separate entry for post punk which is perhaps a more appropriate place for birthday party, fang of gore (as we used to call them back in the day...) etc, also a separate sub-page for anarcho-punk- it's a bit of a 'stub' at the momemnt, but as its a field I'm particularly interested in I'll hopefully be developeing it (and so will others I hope) over time, there was a hell of alot of music that came out of that area which deserves to be remebered and documented (IMHO at least...)

Cheers quercus robur

Does anybody have any qualms about moving this to punk? The only non-musical use of the term is clothing and whatnot, and that can and should be discussed here (though a more specific article at punk fashion would be fine with me, even though Johnny Rotten would probably turn over in his grave at the idea of "punk fashion" being worth discussing). Tokerboy 06:08 Feb 6, 2003 (UTC)

Punk is a person and a lifestyle. I think they should stay separate. -- Zoe

 * There is also the concept of a punk subculture. I don't think any one of the three can unequivocally lay claim to punk.
 * I guess I just don't see what could be at punk (which redirects here) that should be instrinsically separated from the music, which is pretty clearly the dominant meaning of the word, I think. Everything else is related but different from the form of music. Tokerboy

 * I agree that punk is an attitude and not necessarily a style of music, but personally i'd vote for leaving Punk as a redirect page to punk rock, otherwise I can envisage a whole new article emerging that will duplicate lots of stuff that's already at the punk rock article, including yet another list of every punk band and their dog being appended onto the end :-) quercus robur 12:57 Feb 6, 2003 (UTC)

- Deletion of Nu-Metal from the related genres listing

(Sorry about that, Tokerboy. I'm rather new to the project and I didn't think I needed to explain what seemed to me to be such a simple and obvious correction, but here goes:)

The only way in which Nu-Metal can be considered a related genre of Punk is if one considers that both Nu-Metal and Punk are subgenres of Rock & Roll. But the way I understand it, the list of related genres is intended to include only directly related genres (and if that is not the case, then it should be). Thus, psychobilly is acceptable, since it is a fusion of Rockabilly and Punk (hmm, I better add that). But Nu-Metal (being a combination of hip-hop and metal), is not an immediate relative of Punk, and thus does not qualify for our purposes.

I hope this explanation satisfies you, but if not, please respond and we'll discuss it further. Misfit 03:50 Feb 13, 2003 (UTC)
 * Not sure why you directed it at me... I try to stay away from judging what is punk and what isn't due to a general aversion to flame wars. I think I agree with your change.  I also think I know which anonymous user added it (the KROQ guy) and he does all sorts of bizarre things, like classifying Rush as one of the original punk bands and whatnot. In conclusion, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Tokerboy

Always nice to see the cover of London calling, however some have argued that this album marks the point where the Clash 'ceased any longer to be a punk band', therefore p'raps the cover of their first album might be a more appropriate image for this page... or am I just being awkward??? :-) quercus robur 09:17 Apr 12, 2003 (UTC)
 * I thought about it, but I decided to go with London Calling for two reasons:

If you upload The Clash or something, then that takes care of the first point, so I won't be bothered terribly if you replace it. I just thought some photos would liven things up a bit. Tuf-Kat
 * 1) It's the only Clash cover uploaded currently (AFAIK)
 * 2) The satirical reference to Elvis' album cover could probably be used to make a useful point about punk (even if it is only debatably a punk record)

 * No problem- my scanner only goes up to A4 so i couldn't fit my Clash album cover in anyway... London Calling is probably the best album cover ever, so i'm happy to leave it, like i said I was just being picky :-) quercus robur

---

 * 1) Terrific article!
 * 2) The Ramones started in 1974 and IMHO should perhaps be featured more prominently regarding the origins of the genre.
 * 3) I detect a bit of bias towards the UK in this article. Often the relevance of the early 1980s in the US is ignored. Many people with a UK bias feel that Punk “died” in the late 1970s with songs dropping off the charts, declining record sales and the major record labels dumping all of the acts. That being a contingent of whether the genre was alive or dead certainly goes against the entire DIY / anti-establishment philosophy, which was alive and well in the US for the entire decade of the 1980s and onward. -- echidna

Nu metal is not a relative of punk - garage rock is, and should be listed...Britpop had some link to punk via the influence of the Jam on 90s UK groups

Removed the following from article. If any of it is worth NPOVing please feel free to edit and re-insert;

Since the new wave of Avril Lavigne fans that have swept the nation, punk has become moderately mainstream. Unfortunately,most of these "punks" don't realize what they're getting into. These kids don't realize that the anarchy symbol they're wearing represents the absence of government and the possibilty of total and utter chaos. Today's kids simply wear it because everyone else is.They also don't realize that a true anarchist wouldn't shop at Hot Topic. A true anarchist wouldn't support a corpation like Hot Topic. And the bands these "posers" (for lack of a better word) listen to sound more adjacent to Britney Spears or N* SYNC rather than real bands like Black Flag or the Dead Kennedys. If these people ever saw bands like the Sex Pitols, they would see that they wore swastikas, and bands like the Casualties openly declared themselves communists. But these artists didn't wear swastikas because they were Anti- Semetic or because it was cool, they wore the symbols to aggravate society. Something tells me that people buying anarchy memorbelia today are simply trying to be popular and not realizing how ignorant they really are. In the past, punk has been a way to rebel against society and sometimes government. But now it has become another way to be part of the "in" crowd.

quercus robur 17:17, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The following was added by 198.81.26.112 at 22:26, 10 Dec 2003 and reverted by User:Quercusrobur at 10:16, 11 Dec 2003, with the reversion marked as minor & without explanation. I presume it was removed because some of it is POV and because the writer obviously has only indifferent skill with the English language, but I think it was substantive enough that it deserved to be moved here to the talk page rather than rendered invisible:

 * Nonetheless, punk rock's existential and enternal beauty is that it means whatever you want it to mean. The music itself may or may not be anti-pop, but "punk" was truly meant to be a way of life; a euphora. Some may argue this, but in rebute, one who argues this cares way to much about the subject to be "punk" anyway.

 * At the time of bands like the Sex Pistols punk rock anarchists took on a specific style relevant the the attitude of "I really could care less." Back then if one was "punk" one dressed in the way of a warrior against status quo with colored hair and metal chains. The truth is, and Johnny Rotten himself would agree, that once punk became a force, it became exactly the opposite of what it was meant to be, a stereotype.

 * Simply put, punk is the only word that can truly define the lifestyle of against the grain. What this means to the individual is, and will always be up in the air. Blend this idea with any musical thought and you get "punk rock."

 * Nobody really cares, and that is why punk rock is a beautiful form of music.

All of this is way too POV, but it drives at some points that probably deserve to be engaged:

 * 1) Isn't there a need to acknowledge the irony of writing an encyclopedia article about Punk rock (or, for that matter, Dada)?
 * 2) There is a specifically Dionysian strain in punk that is shortchanged in the article. Even such basically intellectual New York progenitors of punk as the Patti Smith Group were looking for something explosive in punk that is shortchanged in the article. By the time punk reached London, it had taken on elements of working class anger and a "chaotic anarchist" attitude that is barely touched on in the article as it stands.
 * 3) There was a dramatic and difficult tension between the punk ethos and what punk became, especially in the UK where the punk movement was seriously rebellious from day one, but where precisely by tapping into the anger of working class youth it became a major commercial success, and many bands had to grapple with the contradictions between their outsider attitude and their new position in life.

I'm not going to try to take that into the article myself, but I hope it provides some grist for the mill. Jmabel 07:12, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Back to the origin of the term "punk" to refer to music: the earliest use I'm aware of is Lenny Kaye in 1972 in the liner notes of Nuggets, referring to what, up till then, had been generally referred to as "garage bands. Does anyone know an earlier usage? Shortly after this, Lenny Kaye began performing with Patti Smith, certainly part of the emerging New York punk scene before there was a London punk scene, so this leads directly to the use of the term by the bands we now know as punk.

This is obviously a controversial subject, so I'd like to leave a few days for anyone to reply with an earlier citation before I mention it in the article. Jmabel 07:36, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

 * I see a claim at http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/music/rock/messages/24843.html that Lester Bangs used the term in his famous 1971 essay "Psychotic Reactions and Carburetor Dung". Not the 1988 book that takes that essay as its title, it would only be relevant here if it's in the essay itself (or something else predating Kaye's use). I read that 20+ years ago and don't have a copy available. Can anyone verify that? A quick search at Amazon turns up the phrase "punk bands started cropping up who were writing their own songs but taking the Yardbirds' sound" at a page number that is probably from the right essay (p.7). That would be a use worth mentioning, but if that's the only use in the essay it's more just precursor to Kaye's more fleshed out writing. http://www.sfbg.com/AandE/fullcircle/50.html also credits Bangs with coining the term, but gives no details.Jmabel 07:59, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Jmabel said above;

''The following was added by 198.81.26.112 at 22:26, 10 Dec 2003 and reverted by User:Quercusrobur at 10:16, 11 Dec 2003, with the reversion marked as minor & without explanation. I presume it was removed because some of it is POV and because the writer obviously has only indifferent skill with the English language, but I think it was substantive enough that it deserved to be moved here to the talk page rather than rendered invisible:''

 * Guilty as charged... the reason I removed it was because it looked iredeeemably POV to me (even though it actually reflects my own POV!), but I agree I should have moved the text to the talk page rather than simply revert. If you (or anyone else) feels that passage can get the ol' NPOV treatment successfully and then be re-integrated into the article please go ahead, I certainly wouldn't object, Cheers quercus robur 18:21, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I totally understand. I suspect that anyone wishing to do so would do better to work from my paraphrase & comments. Jmabel

Perhaps I'm stating the obvious, but I've just removed Adam and the Ants from a list of groups that "exemplified" punk. I'd class them as "new romantics", which is very far from punk. They were certainly a talented band, but punk? With elaborate, deliberate "movie pirate" make-up and costuming and tight, professional musicianship? If this is punk, is there anything form late 70s early 80s Britain that is not? -- Jmabel 00:17, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * Remember, that many of the 'punks' in the UK music scene were experienced musicians (specifically members of The Clash, The Dammed, and The Stranglers.) As for Adam and The Ants, I think that you fairly state that the first album was a punk rock album.  Yours -- Two Halves, you know, the one who never bothers to log in much...

 * Agreed on all counts. But how many people, when the think of Adam and the Ants, think of "Dirk Wears White Socks"? The operative word there was "exemplified". Also, while I agree with you on the musicianship of The Clash, The Dammed, and The Stranglers (and the Dead Kennedys, for that matter), their styles tended to deliberately obscure rather than emphasize that technique. - Jmabel 00:52, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Can somebody who knows punk music please have a look at the first two paragraphs of constraint, and fix them if necessary? It states that "constraint have recorded the most acclaimed punk album of, arguably, the century." Thanks. -- Jitse Niesen 16:03, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

Someone who knows fan sites should determine whether the link to unixpunx.org and the accompanying blurb belong here or are wikispam. -- Jmabel 09:09, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

 * Looked like crap to me. If it's legit, someone make an argument for it here ~Resister 12:29, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

A recent edit
The following:
 * At least as important as the music, however, was the associated punk culture. Highly theatrical punk fashion, which outraged many observers at the time, was characterized by severe haircuts, such as the mohawk, body piercing (often with safety pins) and conversion of items such as bin liners and thrift store remnants into clothing. "Punk chic" has since been largely absorbed by the mainstream.

Was replaced by:
 * The punk phenomenon was never 'just' music. Its power comes from a whole-hearted rejection of prevailing values and modes. Highly theatrical punk fashion, for instance, which outraged many observers at the time, was characterized by the use of cosmetics and an approach to fashion that typically re-created received objects such as shirts as artistic statements. Intense individual expression was the hallmark of real punks. Eventually the mainstream parodied the efforts of punks as "Punk chic" - an example of which is the invention and popularisation of hair gel, an effect striven for by punks for years before some hairdresser decided they could cash-in by making a purpose-specific gunk.

This change is not all bad, but it's not all good. I leave it to someone else to work out how to merge the two, but I'd hate to lose "severe haircuts, such as the mohawk, body piercing (often with safety pins) and conversion of items such as bin liners and thrift store remnants into clothing," which seems far more on the mark than talking about the later degeneration of this very strong anti-aesthetic into mere chic. -- Jmabel 01:55, Jul 3, 2004 (UTC)

Epitomes
Television was recently added to the passage about bands that "epitomize" punk. Great band, but I don't think nearly as well-known as the others listed (anyone who knows needs an explanation of "punk" isn't going to know this band). Also, really, they were not all that punk, even though they had the same audience; with all due respect, they were a bit arty to "epitomize" punk. -- Jmabel 21:12, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)
 * I agree, as important as they were, Television did not sound "punk" at all and in the late 1970s, they were ridiculed by people like Mick Jones of The Clash, for playing long, "pretentious" songs.Grant65 (Talk) 01:38, Jul 17, 2004 (UTC)
 * Precisely. I'm going to revert that. I would hope that if whoever put it there wants to restore it they will make a case here rather than just revert me. -- Jmabel 04:58, Jul 17, 2004 (UTC)

suggested cuts
I think the Lester Bangs quote adds nothing at this point and should be cut. -- (unsigned but appears to be User:BTfromLA)

 * The Lester Bangs quote is our earliest citation for the use of the word "punk" to refer to a style of rock music (as it happens, one quite similar to what eventually became known as punk rock). It leads to the Lenny Kaye usage, which probably leads straight to the modern usage. I think it's highly relevant. It was added in answer to the discussion above, about the origin of the term. Given especially that Bangs himself was a progenitor of the punk attitude, I think it certainly should stay. --

Jmabel 18:12, Jul 18, 2004 (UTC)

 * Bangs is an important figure, but there's no reason to believe that his is the first use of the term, nor is it a particularly interesting quotation. If that line were removed, the entry would read better--connecting Kaye's use of the term to a discussion of Punk's roots--and what would be lost?  Much as one likes Bangs, the overall writing will be improved by editing him out.  Try it.--BTfromLA 23:52, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I think that someone turning to an encyclopedia article on punk rock might be looking for the origin of the term. I'm pretty sure Kaye would have known the Bangs usage: Kaye was a critic at the time, and Bangs was a prominent critic. I've never seen an earlier citation, but obviously if you can find one it would be appropriate to remove the Bangs quote in favor of the earlier citation. -- Jmabel 06:09, Jul 20, 2004 (UTC)

 * Did a little research, and this Dave Marsh use is repeatedly cited as the first. So I made some changes, including dropping the "covers" paragraph.  What do you think?-- --BTfromLA 02:17, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

"New Wave" was not derived from Punk. They emerged simultaneously. Television and Blondie, the first two acts from the CBGBs scene to make records, are both better understood as "New Wave" than "punk," right? Likewise, Talking Heads were an early entry in that scene (one might also add Patti Smith), and Elvis Costello emerged around the same time as the UK punks. At the time, the line between punk and new wave was often confusing, and sometimes the terms were used interchangably; indeed, it could be argued that they were one movement, not two, or that Punk is a subset of "New Wave". But unless you are willing to argue that Talking Heads, etc., are Punk Rock, "New Wave" has to be understood as a parallel development with Punk.--BTfromLA 02:47, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I see your point. I was thinking more about the new wave "scene" deriving from the punk rock "scene" than one type of music deriving from the other. There was an identifiable scene, calling itself "punk" as early as '76-'77. At this time, the term "new wave" wasn't even around, and the bands that eventually would be scene as the progenitors of new wave were perceived as part of the punk scene. Certainly Patti Smith and Blondie both were (Penthouse magazine ran a cover story on Deborah Harry calling her "Punk Princess", and the early Patti Smith group embraced the term "punk"). Elvis Costello was pretty much considered part of the Pub Rock scene, definitely not punk, though occasionally overlapping for venues (and with some people, like Wreckless Eric, riding the line between the two); this UK distinction was not prevalent in the U.S. Listening now to the Talking Heads (or Blondie) it's weird that anyone considered them part of punk, but they did. Hell, Madonna was briefly thought of as punk. On musical grounds, you listen to the stuff they were doing and, with the concept of "new wave" being familiar, that's clearly what they are, but at the time, they were thought of as part of punk. So it's a tricky question: did new wave, as a distinct recognized genre, "derive" from an earlier undifferentiated punk scene, or did it grow up in parallel and just take longer to be recognized as a distinct phenomemenon? I notice that we also list it as a "subgenre"; I guess that inclusion covers the base and you can delete it from "derived" genres; on the other hand, it's odd that there is no discussion in the article of the relation of the two: that relation must be pretty opaque to anyone not of the relevant generation. -- Jmabel

 * I seem to recall "New Wave" being batted around that scene pretty early on--I'd have to dig out my old zines to be sure. At some point I'll look up some of the '75-ish reports of the CBGB scene and see what labels were being applied then. It may have all just been "new music." Of course, it's arguably true that both "New Wave" and "Punk" are derivative of "Punk," if you use the earlier--60s garage rock--meaning of punk rock.  But it wouldn't help anyone to write that Punk is derived from Punk. I'm sure you're right about the opacity of all of this to younger fans--there is some discussion of the relationship between the two terms in the New Wave entry, so if we develop it further, that might be the place. --BTfromLA 05:38, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I added "Australia" to "Cultural Origins" because of the place that bands like The Saints, Radio Birdman and The Birthday Party (band) have in the history of punk. (Not to mention AC/DC, who emerged in the early 70s and were also an influence on the punk bands.) Grant65 (Talk) 04:36, Jul 25, 2004 (UTC)

Unnerstan' I like Ian Dury (R.I.P.) and Wreckless Eric just fine -- even went and saw Eric play a pub in Camden when I was last in London, still good as ever -- but are they really punk? I always identified them far more with the "pub rock" scene

 * You're not alone Pub rock (UK) lists both these bands as practitioners. Its a fairly arbitrary line, though. -- GWO

(especially Ian). Ian's vocal style often seemed almost Rat Pack-ish; I could have imagined him sharing a stage with Dean Martin. -- Jmabel 19:17, Aug 10, 2004 (UTC)
 * Ian was unique, but never really a punk (Too old :) ) IMHO, he more to Viv Stanshall than any of his contemporaries -- GWO

 * I take your point, however I strongly recall that Ian Dury was certainly marketed as punk back in 77, New Boots & Panties and "SEx & DRugs..." were in the racks with all the punk records, and I think that Ian certainly had a punk sensibility, although his music was probably more in the music hall traditrion than anything else. Then agian, i punk was trully 'the peoples music' it wouldn't be too hard to trace a lineage from music hall to punk anyway. And if we are disqualifying people from 'punk' on basis of age, what about Crass and Poison Girls and indeed UK Subs? Penny Rimbaud, Vi Subversa and Charlie Harper were never spring chickens, but were all uncompromisingly 'punk' from the word go... quercus robur 23:20, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I don't go at all with the matter of "too old" and certainly Crass and Poison Girls were punk. The rest of these I don't know well enough to say. Yes, Stiff records in general tried to put their artists -- even Elvis Costello -- on the punk bandwagon because punk was selling, but it seemed pretty clear at the time and seems to me even clearer now that this was more spin than reality. -- Jmabel 03:40, Aug 23, 2004 (UTC)

Similar quibble: if we are going to mention David Bowie, Roxy Music, and Marc Bolan and T. Rex as precursors, how about Gary Glitter, whose stripped-down arrangements have a lot more to do with punk musically than Bowie and Roxy (who were admittedly sometimes closer to punk attitude than the very professional Gary Glitter). (No problem for me with the new mention of Bolan here, but I bet some would disagree!) -- Jmabel 20:44, Aug 24, 2004 (UTC)

Someone has now added Canada to the list of countries of origin. I can think of plenty of fine Canadian punk rockers, but who from Canada can be called one of the originators of punk? Pending clarification, I'm reverting. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:53, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

I seem to be weighing in a lot here... Oh, well.

A recent edit added, "At the time, some in the British punk scene consciously compared the do-it-yourself attitude of punk to the earlier Skiffle craze amid the austerity of 1950s Britain, which had in time given rise to the British Invasion of the U.S. record charts and Beatlemania." This is true, but could use a citation. It then goes on, however, to quote the Clash's "London Calling" and say, "The attitude was definitely pessimistic, invoking the iconic role of London only to dash hopes of resurrection from that quarter, capturing the political mood of the time."

While I would say that the attitude of early British punk was angry and (in some cases, though certainly not the Clash) at times even nihilistic, I don't see anything "pessimistic" in the Clash's politics at that time, and certainly not in this talk. The Clash invoked a spirit of working-class revolution in the face of recently-risen Thatcherism. "London Calling" is a call to battle. The title evokes World War II broadcasts by Edward R. Murrow. "London calling, now don't look to us/ Phoney Beatlemania has bitten the dust" is by no means a cry of despair: it is a call to the youth of the rest of Britain to find their own way, to adopt the DIY ethos. At the time this was written, the punk era was a little more than two years under way in London. The Sex Pistols and others had had a chart success in the UK that no punk-influenced band in the US had until Nirvana. Julie Burchill & Tony Parsons had already written The Boy Looked At Johnny saying, basically, that punk was over, a flash in the pan that had resulted in a few good records but was going nowhere. London Calling (the album and the song) was the start of a second wave of punk: like the Dead Kennedys in the US at the same time, the Clash (who, unlike the DKs, already had two albums under their belts), were moving beyond the anti-musicianly first blast of punk, trying to keep the rawness while also allowing themselves to show their chops, and, also like the DKs (and like their own earlier material) writing uncompromisingly political songs. While we now know that Thatcher lasted a damn long time, I don't think the Clash at that moment were pessimistic at all: the fact that their next album was entitled Sandinista speaks volumes that their political anger was a million miles from despair.

That said, I don't have citations on this, just my own memory of the time. Then again User:Minority Report didn't have any citations, either. I won't revert for now, but I'd appreciate anyone else weighing in. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:43, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

 * Just dropping in to offer a quick endorsement of your efforts here, Jmabel; I agree that the Clash are not well characterized as "definitely pessmistic": though they certainly were disheartened by the political status-quo, they seemed devoted to rallying the downtrodden to fight for a better day. (As the entry now stands, though, it isn't clear to whom the pessimistic attitude is being attributed). I agree with most of your observations here, and I encourage you to allow yourself a somewhat heavier hand when editing, as you seem to be the prime guardian of historical accuracy and coherent English for this topic .  Not only are things like that bit about the new bands being "heckled" worth removing, but a lot of dubious, repetitive and tangential material has crept in to this entry.  I haven't been active here for a while, so I don't think it's appropriate for me to unilaterally do a big edit that throws a bunch of stuff out, but please be aware that there are readers who are cheering you on.--BTfromLA 04:34, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Per this and some further exchange with BTfromLA on our respective user talk pages, I took a shot at a rewrite. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:49, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

 * Thanks Jmabel, I think my initial statement was muddled and I agree with your elaboration on The Clash's political engagement and their stance. The lyrics I chose are--as you've recognised--rich in historical resonance.  Yes, it's reminiscent of broadcasters such as Ed Murrow during the Blitz, or more precisely, the wartime broadcasts of the BBC to the occupied countries of Europe--you can hear an echo of the famous "V" drum taps in Simonon's bass line, which has the same mesmeric up beat (the BBC's war-time drum tap, "dum-dum-dum-DUM" was itself an adaptation of the main theme from Beethoven's Fifth Symphony chosen because it was the morse code for the letter V, dot-dot-dot-dash, for Victory).  The use of the word pessimistic was, I think, correct, but I didn't make it clear that I didn't mean nihilistic.  It's a call to arms, but one that is couched in apocalyptic terms.
 * "The ice age is coming, the sun is zooming in
 * Meltdown expected, the wheat is growing thin
 * Engines stop running, but I have no fear
 * Cause London is drowning - I, I live by the river
 * London calling to the imitation zone
 * Forget it, brother, you can go at it alone."
 * It's a call to arms of a very specific kind. It's an injunction to all the wannaabees and imitation artists to drop their safety pins and do something --Minority Report 12:28, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * It's a call to arms of a very specific kind. It's an injunction to all the wannaabees and imitation artists to drop their safety pins and do something --Minority Report 12:28, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * It's a call to arms of a very specific kind. It's an injunction to all the wannaabees and imitation artists to drop their safety pins and do something --Minority Report 12:28, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * And I just noticed, I linked a Clash bass line to Ludwig van Beethoven! Do I get a mention in pseud's corner? --Minority Report 14:04, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * I don't know if anyone's ever nominated themselves for a Pseud's Corner mention, but I guess that's one way to earn £10! -- Jmabel | Talk 19:52, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)

Amateur
Recently added to first sentence of the Origins section (addition bolded): "...from 'punk', meaning amateur(addition bolded)". Is there any citation for this claim? This meaning of punk would be news to me. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:41, Dec 9, 2004 (UTC)
 * Same here. "Punk" means tinder, or sickly, or a thug. But I've never encountered "amateur."  A quick look at online dictionaries doesn't find anything like that, either. I vote revert. --BTfromLA 14:50, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

title: Talk:Punk rock/Archive 1


text: User talk:206.176.115.147

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User talk:206.176.115.147


text:
User talk:Agoode

Command
Adam needs to make this link blue. Brighterorange 18:41, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Welcome to the Wikipedia
Here are some links I thought useful:

 * Tutorial
 * Help desk
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 * Policy Library
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Feel free to contact me personally with any questions you might have. The Village pump is also a good place to go for quick answers to general questions. You can sign your name by typing 4 tildes, like this: ~.

Be Bold!

[[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 21:15, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

SVG
I notice you're adding SVG to many images. Have you seen our wonderful subcategories? Take a look at the page for SVG, and you'll find a list of them. The main category is quite overpopulated, so diffusing as much as possible to appropriate subcategories helps everyone one. Please use them! Thanks, Stannered (talk) 19:32, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

title: User talk:Agoode


text:
José López

José Lopez may refer to:

Baseball

 * José López (infielder) (born 1983), Venezuelan baseball player
 * José López (outfielder) (1901–?), Cuban baseball player
 * José López (pitcher) (born 1999), Dominican baseball player

Boxing

 * José Toluco López (1932–1972), Mexican lightweight boxer
 * José López (boxer) (born 1972), Puerto Rican boxer
 * José Luis López (boxer) (born 1973), Mexican welterweight boxer
 * José Eduardo López (born 1990), Mexican light welterweight boxer

Cycling

 * José López (cyclist) (born 1910), Argentine cyclist
 * José Manuel López Rodríguez (born 1940), Spanish cyclist
 * José Antonio López (born 1976), Spanish cyclist

Football

 * José López (footballer, born 1914), Spanish footballer
 * Juan José López (born 1950), Argentine football manager and former player
 * José López Ramírez (born 1975), Spanish 5-a-side football player
 * José Luis López (Mexican footballer) (born 1979), Mexican footballer
 * José Gilberto López (born 1994), Mexican footballer
 * José Manuel López (footballer) (born 2000), Argentine footballer
 * José Alfredo López, Argentine footballer
 * José López (Chilean footballer)

Other sports

 * José López (wrestler) (born 1930), Cuban Olympic wrestler
 * José Perurena López (born 1945), Spanish sprint canoer
 * José Ramón López (born 1950), Spanish sprint canoer
 * José López (athlete) (born 1967), Venezuelan runner
 * José María López (born 1983), Argentine race-car driver
 * José Luis López (handballer) (born 1998), Chilean handball player

Politicians

 * José Hilario López (1798–1869), Colombian president and military officer
 * José López Portillo y Rojas (1850–1923), Mexican writer and politician
 * José López Rega (1916–1989), Argentine politician
 * José López Portillo y Pacheco (1920–2004), Mexican president
 * José Francisco López, Argentine politician detained pending trial

Arts and entertainment

 * José López Rubio (1903–1996), Spanish writer and director
 * José Luis López Vázquez (1922–2009), Spanish actor
 * José Serafín López (died 1935), Chilean politician
 * José "Nuno" López (born 1951), Puerto Rican politician

Other

 * José Antonio López (1781–1841), Spanish Mexican Jesuit
 * José M. López (1910–2005), American soldier
 * José Salazar López (1910–1991), Mexican cardinal
 * José Venancio López (1791–1863), Guatemalan jurist and politician
 * José M. López (judge), District of Columbia judge
 * Jose V. Lopez, American-Filipino Molecular Biologist

title: José López


text:
National Affairs

National Affairs is a quarterly magazine in the United States about political affairs that was first published in September 2009. Its founding editor, Yuval Levin, and authors are typically considered to be conservative and right-wing. The magazine is published by National Affairs, Inc., which previously published the magazines The National Interest (1985–2001) and The Public Interest (1965–2005). National Affairs, Inc., was originally run by Irving Kristol, and featured board members such as former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, former ambassador to the United Nations Jeane Kirkpatrick, and author Charles Murray.

History
In the editorial in the inaugural issue, editor Yuval Levin elaborated on the magazine's mission: "National Affairs will have a point of view, but not a party line. It will begin from confidence and pride in America, from a sense that our challenge is to build on our strengths to address our weaknesses, and from the conviction that chief among those strengths are our democratic capitalism, our ideals of liberty and equality under the law, and our roots in the longstanding traditions of the West. We will seek to cultivate an open-minded empiricism, a decent respect for the awesome complexity of life in society, and a healthy skepticism of the serene technocratic confidence that is too often the dominant flavor of social science and public policy. And we will take politics seriously". The editorial expresses gratitude to the editors of The Public Interest, and notes that "the complete archives of The Public Interest are available for the first time" on its website.

On September 7, 2009, David Brooks of the New York Times reviewed the first issue. He wrote that "The Public Interest closed in 2005", leaving "a gaping hole. Fortunately, a new quarterly magazine called National Affairs is starting up today to continue the work." Brooks continued by noting that the magazine occupied "the bloody crossroads where social science and public policy meet matters of morality, culture and virtue". "In a world of fever swamp politics and arid, overly specialized expertise," Brooks wrote in his closing, "National Affairs arrives at just the right time."

National Affairs "makes its home at the American Enterprise Institute."

title: National Affairs


text:
Boris Vladimirski

Boris Eremeevich Vladimirski, (February 27, 1878 – February 12, 1950), was a Soviet painter of the Socialist Realism school.

Life and work
Vladimirski was born in Kiev, Ukraine. He began his artistic studies at age 10, later attending the newly established Kiev Art College (1900-1904) where he studied with Ivan Seleznyov, followed by the Academy of Arts and the Anton Ažbe School in Munich (1904-1908). He exhibited his first painting in 1906.

As an official Soviet artist his work was well received and widely exhibited. His works were aimed at exemplifying the work ethic of the Soviet people; they were displayed in many homes and federal buildings. He is also known for his paintings of prominent public officials.

His work "Roses for Stalin" is often considered a classic example of Socialist realism and Soviet propaganda. ”Black Ravens”, which depicts Soviet secret police (NKVD) that came at night to disappear people, is regarded as a piece that transcended the values of Socialist Realism. "It is still unknown how this work passed censorship."

Literature
Matthew Cullerne Bown: Russian and Soviet Painters. Ilomar, London

title: Boris Vladimirski


text:
Samuel Lawrence

Samuel Lawrence may refer to:

 * Samuel Lawrence (Canadian politician) (1879–1959), Canadian politician
 * Samuel Lawrence (revolutionary) (1754–1827), war officer, founder of Lawrence Academy at Groton
 * Samuel Lawrence (congressman) (1773–1837), U.S. Representative from New York
 * Samuel T. Lawrence (1786–1847), early associate of Joseph Smith, the founder of the Latter-day Saint movement
 * Samuel Hill Lawrence (1831–1868), Irish Victoria Cross recipient
 * Samuel Laurence (1812–1884), British portrait painter, also spelt as Lawrence
 * Samuel C. Lawrence (1822–1911), Massachusetts politician

title: Samuel Lawrence


text:
User talk:Scarynetworkguy

Welcome to Wikipedia!
Hey there, and welcome to Wikipedia. I hope you enjoy your stay here--Wikipedia is a big place, and I'm sure you'll find plenty of articles and discussions that interest you. You might consider viewing the benefits you now have since you've created an account on Wikipedia. You may also wish to examine the help page or the Tutorial if you would like to learn more about contributing to the encyclopedia in general. If you'd like to work on articles along with a group of other people, try taking a look at the Collaboration of the week or one of its many sub-collaborations. Some pages that you may want to visit or use as references include User page, How to edit a page, Manual of Style, and Policies and guidelines. If you so desire, you can always drop me a line at my talk page or post a question via the Village pump.

Happy editing! --pie4all88

P.S. You can sign your name as I did using three tildes, like. If you use four instead of three, you can add a timestamp too.

title: User talk:Scarynetworkguy


text: Category:Communications in Greece

title: Category:Communications in Greece


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mr kipling

Mr kipling
Mr kipling was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was keep.

Seems like straight advertising. Is the company notable enough for an article? --LeeHunter 21:29, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep Yes this company is very well-known in the UK. Presumably should be moved to Mr Kipling. Kappa 22:13, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep but improve. e.g. replace all occurrences of "He" with "The Company", and do something about the NPOV. Jeff Knaggs 22:18, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Keep but improve .... please, please improve! (This USA-ian knows nothing about it, alas) - DavidWBrooks 22:50, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Keep and correct the capitalization. —[[en:RaD Man|RaD Man (talk)]] 23:40, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * They're notable - or, at least, well-known - enough that about one-third of discussions on Kipling here are required by law, it seems, to include a cake joke, or a pun on "exceedingly good". (Another third have to have "I've never kippled". There are some jokes so old you dare not avoid making them) Should be moved to Mr Kipling, Mr Kipling Cakes or something, though. (I always knew of them for their little apple pies and the like, not cakes per se, but s'close enough) Shimgray 01:49, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep well known British brand. (Possible verifyiability problems, never actually eaten one, so have no idea if indeed 'exceedeingly good'! Sabine's Sunbird 06:29, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep and improve - major British brand, cultural status with brand image fostered through extensive media campaigns.Sjc 18:43, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep - Notable brand as noted above. People who wich to improve the article should check out the brand web page - you can actually get some useful information there that can be turned into an good article Capitalistroadster 11:00, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Very well-known brand in the UK. If necessary for verifiability, I'll go eat a box of their apple pies right now :-) [[User:David_Johnson|David Johnson [ T|C ] ]] 18:13, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. I've changed a little, but needs more help. [[User:Meelar|Meelar (talk)]] 18:34, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep and allow for organic growth. A notable product.  [[User:GRider|GRider\talk]] 19:07, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep and send to clean-up if it's not fixed. [[User:Livajo|Ливай | ☺]] 01:24, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Why was this ever nominated for deletion in the first place??? P Ingerson 11:35, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. I've removed the PoV, which made it sound spammy and probably provoked the original VfD from someone who hasn't spent time in the UK. Wyss 12:56, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
Talk:Eighteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution

Diseases? What diseases?
"However, consumption soon climbed as underworld entrepreneurs began producing "rotgut" alcohol which was full of dangerous diseases."

I don't think dangerous diseases is the correct phrase. "Caused many accidental poisonings" would be a better phrase. The fault of the home distillers was not one of contamination with bacteria or viruses or mold, as none of them could live in alcohol. The problem was bad distillation methods which lead to methanol being produced instead of ethanol, and methanol destroys your liver and your eyes first, so many people went blind and many people were poisoned and died from "bathtub gin" but none caught any dangerous diseases.

Why didn't it just say "Congress shall have the power to prohibit..."?
Is the reason known why the amendment specifically prohibited beverage alcohol, instead of merely giving congress the power to do so, as other amendments did? Was there a fear of lobbyism leading to a repeal of prohibition? -- 77.189.99.210 (talk) 22:04, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Prohibition had to be an amendment to the Constitution because at the time, before the Jones and Laughlin cases, the power of Congress to regulate commerce was much less than it is today. Prior to the mid-1930s, the US Supreme Court did not interpret the Commerce Clause of the Constitution to regulate anything but narrowly defined commerce as different from agriculture, and manufacturing.  The Commerce Clause limits Congressional authority to regulating interstate commerce, and so if everything regarding the alcohol was confined in a single state (i.e. the hops for beer were grown in Colorado, transported (on state roads - no Interstate Highway at this time) to a Colorado brewery, the beer was brewed there in Colorado without employees from other states, and then the alcohol was distributed and consumed in Colorado, then Congress would not have had authority to regulate it.  Note, however, that FDR had huge majorities in Congress and when SCOTUS started ruling New Deal programs unconstitutional, he threatened to pack the court in 1936.  One of the justices changed his mind, flipping the previous 5-4 majorities the opposite way, and the Court stayed at 9 justices - but the interpretation of Congress's Commerce Clause power has been radically different ever since.  See [National Labor Relations Board v. Jones & Laughlin Steel Corporation], which spelled an end to the more restrictive interpretation of the Commerce Clause of the Constitution, though you'll find a boatload of other cases with other interpretations that effectively expand Congressional power under the clause.
 * There are today members of the Court who would like to return to the previous interpretation, and limit the federal government's power over interstate commerce. See Justice Thomas's dissent in [United States v. Lopez], where he talks of the "old" definition of commerce.DOH (talk) 03:03, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Connecticut
Did Connecticut ratify this or not? They are listed as one of two states to reject the amendment but also as the 46th state to ratify it. --Shawn K. Quinn (talk) 11:26, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
 * This is surprisingly hard to find a reliable source for. A lot sites say it didn't but I can't find anything that doesn't convince me it didn't get its information from Wikipedia.

 * On HeinOnline, I have a snippet of a law review article that, as far as I can tell, says it did not ratify. Alas, my Hein subscription does not allow me to see the full article to get all the context. Does anyone have access to the Connecticut Bar Journal? The quote, as much as I have:

 * ...failure to ratify the Eighteenth Amendment as evidence of her rugged insistence upon the rights of the... controversial amendments came later. Connecticut, it is to be noted, did not ratify the Bill of Rights. This...

 * Annual Meeting of the State Bar Association of Connecticut [notes]; Connecticut Bar Journal, Vol. 7, Issue 3 (1933), pp. 91-160. 7 Conn. B.J. 91 (1933).

 * TJRC (talk) 00:20, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

 * Aha! No, it did not:
 * "...it took until 1922 for the forty-sixth state, New Jersey, to ratify, and Connecticut and Rhode Island would never do so." Henry S. Cohn & Ethan Davis, Stopping the Wind that Blows and the Rivers that Run: Connecticut and Rhode Island Reject the Prohibition Amendment, 27. Quinnipac L. Rev. 327, 328 (2009).
 * I will revise the article. TJRC (talk) 00:25, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I've now revised the article. I dropped www.usconstitution.net as a source; it seems to be just a web site run by an ordinary guy, nothing authoritative, and I think he just mistranscribed something.  The claim that Connecticut ratified is contrary to the official Senate document that's used as a reference as well as the very thoroughly researched law review article I cite above (and also added as a source). TJRC (talk) 01:15, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

This is incoherent
QUOTE: Woodrow Wilson: Which was the 28th President of the United States, he vetoed the 18th Amendment which was later ratified by congress and was called the Volstead Act. Which was enacted to carry out the Intent of the 18th Amendment.[2] President Wilson was the one that introduced the National Prohibition Act, also known as the Volstead Act. This act implemented the banning of alcoholic beverages as well as the production and the distribution of the beverages. This law was passed on July 22, 1919 with a vote of 287 to 100. Not too long after, the law was repealed with the passage of the 21st amendment to the Constitution. UNQUOTE Woodrow Wilson is a "who", not a "which". Presidents can't veto Constitutional Amendments. Then it says "President Wilson was the one that introduced the National Prohibition Act, also known as the Volstead Act." Um, are "introduce" and "veto" the same thing? They aren't. The Volstead act was introduced by Representative Andrew Volstead. I don't know how it was introduced in the Senate. Wilson didn't INTRODUCE the Volstead Act, but vetoed it (did NOT veto the 18th Amendment, couldn't), and got overridden. Whoever wrote this believes that the 18th Amendment and the Volstead Act are the same thing. They are not. The 18th Amendment is what made it Constitutional for the houses of Congress to pass bills like the Volstead Act, which bills, if signed by the President or vetoed by the President but overridden, could not later be ruled un-Constitutional if such bills dealt on with the matters that the 18th Amendment lays out, because the 18th Amendment makes them specifically Constitutional. For instance the Supreme Court couldn't toss the Volstead Act on grounds of states' rights or inalienable personal liberty, since the 18th Amendment specifically empowers the Federal Government to trod on states' rights and individual liberty in these narrowly-confined matters. One thing that was required was legislation to define the Constitution's vague reference to "intoxicating", and that's done in the Volstead Act, not the Amendment. They are two different things. And whoever wrote this uses an informal style in which it is permissible to begin sentences with "which". Which is not the style for an encyclopedia.2604:2000:C682:2D00:146:7506:94D4:E2EB (talk) 23:33, 26 November 2017 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson

This is not just incoherent, it's a mess.
To give just one example, take this sentence and footnote:

"Just after the Eighteenth Amendment's adoption, there was a significant reduction in alcohol consumption among the general public and particularly among low-income groups. There were less hospitalizations for alcoholism and less liver-related medical problems. However, consumption soon climbed as underworld entrepreneurs began producing "rotgut" alcohol which was full of dangerous diseases.[31]"

It is not possible for an educated adult to write that alcohol of any kind can be full of diseases, dangerous or otherwise. The sentence would make sense if the word 'diseases' was replaced by 'additives'. However, we cannot know if that was the writer's intent, or if it reflects information contained in the sourcing footnote.

One's next step might be to examine the footnote. Footnote 31 is a link to a history.com article:

http://www.history.com/topics/18th-and-21st-amendments

This article does not address the question of additives in 'rotgut' liquor. But something even more worriesome becomes apparent: There is considerable and literal overlap between this article and the wikipedia article. Which came first, one would like to know? Is the Wikipedia article cloning the history.com article, or is it a case of vice versa? Regardless, a footnote cannot be valid if it merely refers to identical text published elsewhere. In any case, the question of rotgut is not addressed.

This is but one example indicating that this article is in need of drastic editing by a competent historian. Busterbarker2008 (talk) 09:59, 15 December 2017 (UTC)


text:
User talk:Yumyumpuppies

Welcome to the Wikipedia
Here are some links I thought useful:

 * Tutorial
 * Help desk
 * Foundation issues
 * Policy Library
 * Utilities
 * Cite your sources
 * Verifiability
 * Wikiquette
 * Civility
 * Conflict resolution
 * Neutral point of view
 * Pages needing attention
 * Peer review
 * Bad jokes and other deleted nonsense
 * Brilliant prose
 * Featured pictures
 * Boilerplate text
 * Current polls
 * Mailing lists
 * IRC channel

Feel free to contact me personally with any questions you might have. The Village pump is also a good place to go for quick answers to general questions. You can sign your name by typing 4 tildes, like this: ~.

Be Bold!

[[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 21:31, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thisisatest1 and Thisisatest2
I am assuming you are done testing Thisisatest1 and Thisisatest2, thus I have just marked it as a candidate for speedy delete. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 23:42, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Yumyumpuppies


text:
1805 in rail transport

June births

 * June 15 – William Butler Ogden, president of the Chicago and North Western Railway (d. 1877).

August births

 * August 9 – Joseph Locke, English civil engineer who became Chief Engineer on the Grand Junction Railway (d. 1860).

November births

 * November 7 – Thomas Brassey, English railway contractor who supervised the construction of more than 6500 miles ( km) of track around the world (d. 1870).

Unknown date births

 * George S. Griggs, pioneering master mechanic in American steam locomotive manufacturing (d. 1870).
 * William Swinburne, American locomotive designer and builder (d. 1883).

title: 1805 in rail transport


text:
Samuel Lawrence (revolutionary)

Samuel Lawrence (April 24, 1754 – April 17, 1827) was an American revolutionary from Groton, Massachusetts.

Career
Lawrence fought at the Battle of Bunker Hill under Henry Farwell. Lawrence served in the army for 3 and half years from 1775 to 1778, and rose within the U.S. Army to the rank of major. While in the army he married Susanna Parker on July 22, 1777. He was adjutant under General John Sullivan in the Battle of Rhode Island and served there until he retired from service in 1778. After the war, Lawrence returned to Groton, where he settled as a farmer.

In 1793, he helped to found Groton Academy (now Lawrence Academy at Groton).

Personal life
Of English ancestry, Lawrence was born in 1754 in Groton, then in the Province of Massachusetts Bay, to Amos and Abigail (née Abbott) Lawrence. He was the patriarch of the Boston Brahmin Lawrence family. He married Susanna Parker in 1777, and had 9 children. His sons, who were all influential in United States history, included:

 * Luther Lawrence (1778–1839), who served as Mayor of Lowell, MA from 1838 to 1839.
 * William Lawrence (1783–1848)
 * Amos Lawrence (1786–1852)
 * Abbott Lawrence (1792–1855)
 * Samuel Lawrence (b. 1801), who was a business partner with his brother William

Luther died on April 17, 1839, when he fell into a wheel pit while showing a visitor around his mill.

title: Samuel Lawrence (revolutionary)


text:
Islam in South Africa

South Africa is a Christian majority nation with Islam being a minority religion, practised by roughly 1.6% of the total population. Islam in South Africa has grown in three different phases. The first phase brought the earliest Muslims as part of the involuntary migration of slaves, artisans, political prisoners, and political exiles from the Dutch East Indies to the Cape Colony from 1652 to 1800. The second phase was the arrival of indentured labourers from British India to work in the sugar-cane fields in Natal from 1860 to 1911. Of the approximately 176,000 Indians of all faiths who were transported to the Natal province, almost 7–10% of the first shipment were Muslims. The third phase has been marked by a wave of African Muslims following the end of apartheid in 1994. Recent figures put the number of these immigrants at approximately between 75,000 and 100,000. In addition, a considerable number of Muslims from South Asia have also arrived as economic migrants. Although the majority of Muslims are Sunni, smaller numbers are Shia, particularly in Cape Town.

The VOC period
In the 17th century, the Dutch controlled East Indies and the Cape. Free Muslim labourers (Mardyckers), banished rebels and slaves were taken to the Cape from Dutch East Indies (modern day Indonesia) as free workers, and as slaves. A significant number of slaves from India were also Muslims.

The first recorded arrival of free Muslims known as Mardyckers is in 1658. Mardycka or Maredhika implies freedom. The Mardyckers were people from Amboyna in the southern Moluccas and were brought to the Cape to defend the newly established settlement against the indigenous people, and also to provide labour in the same way that they had been employed at home, first by the Portuguese and later by the Dutch, in Amboyna. Jan Van Riebeeck had requested that the Mardyckers be sent to the Cape as a labour force. The Mardyckers were prohibited from openly practising their religion: Islam. This was in accordance with the Statute of India (drafted by Van Dieman in 1642) which stated in one of its placaats [statutes]: "No one shall trouble the Amboinese about their religion or annoy them; so long as they do not practise in public or venture to propagate it amongst Christians and heathens. Offenders to be punished with death, but should there be amongst them those who had been drawn to God to become Christians, they were not to be prevented from joining Christian churches." The same Placaat was re-issued on 23 August 1657 by Governor John Maetsuycker probably in anticipation of the advent of the Mardyckers to the Cape of Good Hope. The placaat applied to the Cape as part of the Dutch Colonial Empire.

During the late seventeenth and early eighteenth century the Dutch continued to exile Muslim leaders from Dutch East Indies to the Cape. Many "Indiaanen" and "Mohammedaanen" Muslim political prisoners brought from East Asia were imprisoned on Robben Island. 1667 saw the arrival of first Muslim political exiles banished by the Dutch to the Cape. These political exiles or Orang Cayen were Muslim men of wealth and influence who were banished to the Cape from their homeland in the East because the Dutch feared them as a threat to their political and economic hegemony. The first political exiles were the rulers of Sumatra. They were Sheikh Abdurahman Matabe Shah and Sheikh Mahmood. Both were buried in Constantia. From the very outset the Cape authorities accommodated the exiles away from Cape Town as they feared the exiles would escape. A tomb for these political exiles has been erected on "Islam Hill" in Constantia in the Cape. Sheikh Abdurahman Matebe Shah used his exile to consolidate the teaching of Islam among slaves in the Cape.

The next Orang Cayen was Sheikh Yusuf of Bantam who arrived on board 'De Voetboog' on 2 April 1694 along with his family and followers. They were housed on a farm in Zandvleit, near the mouth of the Eerste River in the Cape, far from Cape Town, on 14 June 1694. The Company's attempt to isolate Shaykh Yusuf at Zandvleit did not succeed. On the contrary, Zandvleit turned out to be the rallying point for 'fugitive' slaves and other exiles from the East. It was here that the first cohesive Muslim community in South Africa was established. Since the Sheikh and his followers hailed from Macassar, the district around Zandvliet is still known today as Macassar.

Among the political exiles were Tuan Guru, first chief imam in South Africa, and Sheikh Madura, who was exiled in the 1740s and died on Robben Island; his kramat (shrine) is still there today. Sa'id Alowie (Sayyid 'Alawi), popularly known as Tuan Sa'id, of Mocca in Yemen, Arabia, arrived at the Cape in 1744 with Hadjie Matarim. They were banished to the Cape by the Dutch and were incarcerated on Robben Island. On his release from Robben Island Tuan Sa'id settled at the Cape where he worked as a police constable – an occupation which gave him ample opportunities for visiting slave quarters at night to teach. Tuan Sa'id is known for his active Da'wah (missionary endeavour) amongst the slaves in the Slave Lodge. He is generally regarded as the first official imam of the Cape Muslims.

In 1767 Prince Abdullah Kadi Abu Salaam of Tidore, Indonesia, was exiled to the Cape. He wrote a copy of the Quran from memory during his incarceration, and the volume is still preserved in Cape Town. He was released from jail in 1793 and establish a madrasah or Islamic school the same year. It is the first madrasah in the country and extremely popular among the slaves and the Free Black community. It played an important role in converting many slaves to Islam. It was also at this madrasah that the literary teaching of Arabic-Afrikaans emerged. It was through his work at the madrasah that he gained the appellation Tuan Guru, meaning mister teacher.

In 1793 the growth of the community encouraged Cape Town's Muslims to petition the VOC for permission to build a mosque. Tuan Guru became the first imam of the first mosque established at the Cape, the Auwal Mosque. Islam was a popular religion among the slaves – its tradition of teaching enabled literate slaves to gain better positions in their masters' households, and the religion taught its followers to treat their own slaves well.

Arrival of Indian Muslims
In the 1800s there were two groups of Muslims that emigrated to South Africa from South Asia. The first began with a wave of immigration by indentured labourers from South India in the 1860s. These labourers were brought to South Africa by the British. 7–10% of these labourers were Muslim. The second group of immigrants were merchants or traders ("Passenger Indians") that arrived from North India and settled in Natal, the Transvaal and the Cape. The first mosque in Natal, Jumuah Musjid, was built in Grey Street in Durban in 1881. By 1911, 152,641 Indians had come to Natal.

Deobandis
Darul Uloom Deoband was established in 1866 in the Saharanpur district of Uttar Pradesh, India, as part of the anti-British movement. It gave rise to a traditional conservative Sunni movement known as the Deobandi movement. The Deobandi Movement has an international presence today, with its full-fledged manifestation in South Africa, a country where the movement was initiated through the Indian Gujarati merchant class. The Islamic education system of the Deobandi movement, as well as the necessary components of social and political organizations such as Tablighi Jamaat, Sufism and Jamiat, are fully functioning effectively in South Africa, as they do in India. Madrasas in South Africa provide Islamic higher education and are now centers for Islamic education for foreigners who are interested in receiving a Deobandi-style education. Many of their graduates, especially from Western countries such as the United Kingdom and the United States, are Western students. Some of South African madrasas are recognized globally, providing fatwa services. South Africa is now known for producing exceptional Islamic literature through translation and compilation. Similarly, the Tabligh Jamaat is a hub in South Africa that spreads throughout South and East Africa. Graduates of South African madrassas spend their time in the path of the Tabligh Jamaat. Through the work of several spiritual personalities of the Deobandis, the tradition of Deoband's Tasawwuf (Sufism) has taken root in South Africa. Among them are Muhammad Zakariyya al-Kandhlawi, Masihullah Khan, Mahmood Hasan Gangohi and Asad Madni. South African Deobandi Muslims have many important and influential educational and socio-political organizations that educate the people and play an important role in religious and social activities. Among them are Jamiatul Ulama South Africa and the Muslim Judicial Council.

After apartheid
After South Africa became a democracy in 1994, there has been a growing number of Muslim migrants from South Asia and North Africa; however, their numbers are fairly low. Most of the non-South African Muslims are urban dwellers and thus live in or near Cape Town, Durban, Port Elizabeth, East London, Kimberley, Pretoria or Johannesburg.

New rise in conversions
Even though organisations such as Discover Islam, IPCI, the Islamic Dawah Movement of South Africa, and the Africa Muslim Agency have been eager to proselytise in the region, there have been other civic organisations such as the MYMSA and the Call of Islam who considered other approaches to weave Islam into the social fabric of South Africa as a more significant way of making the Muslims' presence conspicuous.

According to Michael Mumisa, a researcher and writer on African Islam, there has been an increase in the number of black South Africans converting to Islam particularly among the women and the youth. He believes that for some of the youth and women who were schooled in the politics of South African resistance and confrontation with the security forces of the former Apartheid state, the acceptance of Islam has become part of a radical rejection of a society based on Christian principles which are seen as having been responsible for establishing and promoting the Apartheid doctrine through the Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa. The influence of the radical ideas espoused by Malcolm X is very evident among South African Muslims of all races. Branches of the Nation of Islam are already established in South Africa. Louis Farrakhan paid a visit to South Africa and was received by President Nelson Mandela and African Muslim communities.

Another reason has been the presence of a growing Number of Sufi Orders and Groups. Amongst these is the Murabitun, a group that has a strong following in Spain.

Organisations
Organisations such as the Jamiat ul-Ulama of the Transvaal (est. 1923), The Muslim Judicial Council (est. 1945), The Cape Town Ulama Board and Muslim Youth Movement of South Africa (est. 1970) enjoyed a fair amount of moral and financial support from the Muslim community for their social welfare activities. The once strong Muslim Students Association of South Africa (est. 1974), which had branches on many tertiary campuses, became less vocal and thus lost its grip on student activities; the MSA was thus replaced by Islamic societies that were either independent or affiliates of other Muslim organisations outside these institutions. There is also a Turkish school Nizamiye Muslim School which was established in 2011. There is also a community of the Chisti way of Tasawwuf.

Salmaan AlFaarsi was founded in 2020 with the vision of educating primarily the indigenous but not restricted to, about Islam and empowering them with financial literacy in order to stop them from being dependent on organizations. Their aim is not that of radicals and extremism but also not lax in upholding the pristine teachings of Islam.

There is emerging black Muslim movement in the township around Gauteng in particular. Gauteng Muslim Shurah Council (GMSC) this is as results of a lot of dissatisfaction with the above organisations who are predominantly Indian and coloured and are viewed as colonising the black thought into indopak version of Islam. The GMSC is now resourced in all Gauteng townships with regional shurah's with Amir's. Amir Mohammed Gadimang is the leader of this group. With prominent other regional Amir's Zaid Langa (Soweto) and Abdul Qadir Mandla Nkosi (Tshwane) who are the biggest regions.

Regulatory and Advisory Bodies
Besides political parties, a number of Islamic organisations operate in South Africa, looking after various aspects of Muslim life.

Major organisations include the Muslim Judicial Council, whose activities include the provision of Halaal certification of food. The Cape Town Ulama Board, whose activities deal with Government dialogue and religious verdicts. The South African Hajj and Umrah Council (SAHUC) looks after the needs of South Africa's pilgrims and is responsible for the issuing of Hajj permits. There are many other local organisations that exist to look after the interests of the Muslim communities.

Relief Organisations
There are many Muslim relief organisations in South Africa serving both Muslim and Non-Muslim causes: Some of these organisations have their roots in South Africa, while others form part of a larger international organisation.
 * Jamiatul Ulama Kwa Zulu Natal
 * AWQAF SA
 * Africa Muslims Agency / Direct Aid International
 * Al Imdaad Foundation
 * Gift of the Givers led by Imtiaz Sooliman
 * Islamic Relief SA
 * Islamic Dawah Movement of South Africa (IDM)
 * Muslim Hands SA
 * Muslim Refugees Association of South Africa
 * Mustadafin Foundation
 * CTIEC Ziyaee Welfare
 * South African National Zak'ah Fund

Activism
Organisations such as PAGAD have received attention for their fight against gangsterism and drugs. PAGAD consisted of mainly Muslim people, but were joined by people from various religions. PAGAD, as the name suggests, was ostensibly formed to combat the rising trends of gangsterism and drug use. It became known more prominently, however, as proponents of urban terror. They were implicated in over 300 acts of violence, the majority of which involved explosives. PAGAD's operations largely ceased after the arrest and prosecution of its leaders in 2000.

Islamic political parties
When the first democratic elections took place in April 1994 two Muslim parties emerged, the Africa Muslim Party and the Islamic Party. The AMP contested the National Assembly as well as the provincial legislature and the IP contested only the Western Cape provincial legislature. Neither party was able to secure seats in either legislature.

No Islamic party contested the 1999 elections.

The 2004 elections were contested by the AMP and the Peace and Justice Congress, again without success.

Al Jama-ah was formed in 2007, and won its first seat in 2019, becoming the first Islam-affiliated party to do so.

Theology
Most South African Muslims are members of the Sunni branch of Islam; there are also large numbers of Shi'a and other smaller sects throughout South Africa.

Sects
Sunnis make up the majority of South African Muslims followed by Shia Muslims.

Madhab
Most of the Indian community follow the Hanafi Madhab, while the Malay, Kokni Indian & East African Communities usually follow the Sha'afi madhab, which predominates in the Western Cape. There is also an increasingly large number of adherents to the Maliki madhab, composed mostly of recent West African and Maghribi Migrants.

Scholarship
The Dominant traditions of scholarship are the rival South Asian Deobandi/Barelvi schools within the Indian Community.

The Malay Community has a much more varied tradition with graduates of Al-Azhar in Egypt, Umm-al Qurra in Mecca & other universities in Saudi Arabia & South Asia. Most of the Indian scholars are graduates from Deobandi affiliated Madrassahs or Sunni Zia Ul Ulooms Like Jamia Razvia Zia Ul Uloom (Rawalpindi – Pakistan).

Notable scholars

 * Moulana Ebrahim Bham (Secretary General of Jamiatul Ulama South Africa)
 * Sheikh Ebrahim Gabriels (Former President of the Muslim Judicial Council.)
 * Mufti Ebrahim Desai (Founder of Darul Ifta Mahmudiyah)
 * Ahmed Deedat (Founder Of IPCI)
 * Mufti Sayed Haroon Al Azhari (Current Mufti Cape Town Ulama Board)
 * Moulana Taha Karaan (Mufti of MJC & Dar al-Uloom al-Arabiyyah al-Islamiyyah, Strand-ra)
 * Moulana Rafiek Jaffer (Discover Islam)
 * Moulana Sayed Imraan Ziyaee (Deputy President of Sunni Ulama Council Cape)
 * Moulana Allie Adam (Islamia Academy)
 * Moulana Abdurragmaan Khan (Dar al-Turath al-Islami)
 * Moulana Allie Goder (Darun Na'im)

Community and interfaith relations
This religious cohesion is most obvious in the Indian and Coloured residential areas where Muslims live amongst, work with and attend school with fellow South Africans of Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, Christian, atheist and agnostic beliefs. South African Muslims generally do not segregate themselves from people of other faiths. As per the culture in South Africa, it is not uncommon for South African Muslims, just like their fellow non-Muslims, to shake hands, hug or even kiss (in the case of close friends and distant or close family) as a greeting – even with non-mahrams. The National Interfaith Leadership Council, which advises President Zuma, includes former Western Cape premiere, Erahim Rasool.

The Muslim community has been affected by a rise in drug abuse, particularly in Cape Town of the drug Tik (crystal meth Crime and gangsterism are also visible in the poorer Muslim communities.

Qur'ans are available in libraries including the National Library. During the month of Ramadan, many Muslim retail stores, radio stations (public and private), publications and organisations send messages of goodwill to the local Muslim community. Many Muslim stores are closed on Eid-ul-Fitr.

Financial services providers such as First National Bank, ABSA bank, Standard Bank and Nedbank offer Sharia compliant financial solutions and banking products. South Africa also has several branches of Albaraka Bank (of Saudi Arabia), Habib Overseas Bank Ltd and HBZ Bank Ltd, which offers only Shari'a compliant banking. Oasis Crescent Management Group is also a financial service provider to Muslims in South Africa.Halal food products, butcheries, restaurants are widely available in South Africa although gender segregation is not common within South African society.

Marriage
South Africa is one of the few Muslim minority countries in the world which is considering the implementation of Muslim Personal Law or Muslim Family Law. In 2003, a draft Muslim Marriages Bill was submitted to the Department of Justice. This would allow courts to enforce the marital regulations of sharia law, with the assistance of a Muslim judge and assessors familiar with Islamic law, to protect the rights of Muslim women.

Proponents of the bill believe it would protect the rights of Muslim women as decisions made by legal scholars are not legally binding regarding financial settlements following a divorce.

Questions have been raised about the need for a separate marriage bill for Muslims, and there is lack of consensus in the Muslim community itself on the need for, and structure of the bill.

In 2009, an unsuccessful application was brought before the Constitutional Court of South Africa by a Muslim women's organisation, to compel the government to enact the Muslim Marriages bill. During the hearing, Judge Kate O'Regan stated that, "the question is whether it is acceptable for the state to take over the management of a particular religion". Judge Albie Sachs commented that "it's asking the courts to intrude, in a very profound way, on a very sensitive issue".

Halaal certification
There are a number of Halaal certification authorities, who certify food, retail edible items and restaurants as Halal. There is some disagreement between these organisations. The certifications carry considerable weight amongst South African Muslims.

The most prominent Halaal certification authorities in South Africa are:
 * Muslim Judicial Council (MJC)
 * South African National Halaal Authority (SANHA)
 * National Independent Halaal Trust (NIHT)
 * Islamic Council of South Africa (ICSA)

Education
The majority of South African Muslims attend mixed gender public schools, while some attend private (mostly Catholic or Anglican) schools, where they are exempt from prayer sessions and Biblical curriculum. Islamic schools also exist under the control of the Association of Muslim Schools (AMS) as well as Madrasahs. The Islamic Schools under AMS offer a syllabus combining secular and Islamic studies. The secular syllabus is taken from the CAPS syllabus issued by the Department of Basic Education while the Islamic studies syllabus is taken from the Taalimi Board affiliated to the Jamiatul Ulama South Africa. Some institutions offer short courses on Islamic teaching, while Islamic Law and Islamic finance studies are also available.

Qu'ran Study groups are common and Arabic studies are available through private tutoring, or universities such as Wits University and University of the Western Cape.

South Africa has a number of Darul Ulooms around the country. These institutes have students from around the world, including a large number of African students. Some of these institutions include:

 * Darul Uloom Pretoria
 * Darul Uloom Azaadville
 * CTIEC Zia ul Uloom
 * Darul Uloom Qariyya Gharib Nawaaz, Ladysmith, South Africa
 * Darul Uloom Newcastle, Newcastle, South Africa
 * Darul Uloom Zakariyya
 * Darul Taaleemuddeen

Prominent Muslims in South Africa
In addition to Cabinet ministers, there are a number of members of parliament as well as councillors in the various provinces. The former Western Cape premier, Ebrahim Rasool, is Muslim (Rasool is currently serving as South Africa's Ambassador to the United States of America). Imam Hassan Solomon (Raham) was a member of parliament from 1994 until his death in 2009. During the struggle for liberation, Imam found himself being asked by many communities to preach, even in churches! He joined the United Democratic Front, seen by many as a front for the banned African National Congress (ANC). During his years in exile in Saudi Arabia, Imam Solomon furthered his Islamic education, but was always available to enlighten people on the situation in South Africa. Imam Solomon returned to South Africa in 1992, and took up a seat in the National Assembly in Parliament following the first democratic elections in 1994. He served in Parliament until his death in 2009. Naledi Pandor is the minister of Science and Technology, Pandor is the granddaughter of Z.K. Mathews an anti apartheid teacher and a prominent member of the ANC. Naledi converted to Islam after her marriage to Sharif Josef Pandor.

Sheikh Ahmed Badsha Peer was a highly respected Sufi. He arrived in South Africa in 1860 as an indentured labourer and was given an honourable discharge by the colonial British authorities when he was discovered to be mystic. His tomb is at the Badsha Peer Square/Brook Street Cemetery in Durban.

Abu Bakr Effendi was an Ottoman qadi of Kurdish descent who was sent in 1862 by the Ottoman sultan Abdulaziz at the request of the British Queen Victoria to the Cape of Good Hope, to teach and assist the Muslim community of the Cape Malays. During his stay at the Cape he produced one of the first works in Afrikaans literature with his work in Arabic Afrikaans, Uiteensetting van die godsdiens (Exposition of the Religion).

Sports
Cricket
 * Hashim Amla became first non-White regular test captain of South Africa.
 * Ahmed Amla, former batsman for the Dolphins and brother of Hashim Amla
 * Wayne Parnell is a bowler in the South Africa national cricket team.
 * Imraan Khan is a cricketer who plays domestic cricket and captains the Dolphins.
 * Farhaan Behardien is a cricketer who plays ODIs and T20Is.
 * Shabnim Ismail is a fast bowler for the South African national women's team and their leading all-time wicket taker in ODIs and T20Is.
 * Imran Tahir is a leg-spinbowler who plays cricket for South Africa.
 * Bjorn Fortuin is a spinner who plays cricket for South Africa
 * Tabraiz Shamsi spinner and right arm batter for South Africa

Association football
 * Moeneeb Josephs is a former goalkeeper for the South Africa national football team.
 * Ashraf Hendricks is a former defender for Morako Swallows, Bidwest Wits, Black Aces and South Africa.
 * Reyaad Pieterse, goalkeeper for SuperSport United and Kaizer Chiefs

Rugby union
 * Nizaam Carr became the first Muslim to play for the Springboks

Martial arts
 * Solly Said is a karateka based in Johannesburg and founder of his own karate system. A pioneer of South African karate, he has been practising since the mid sixties.
 * Hoosain Narker is a karateka based in Cape Town and is a Executive member of the All Styles governing body.

Politics

 * Ahmed Kathrada, anti-apartheid activist and former MP
 * Mandla Mandela is the chief of the Mvezo Traditional Council and grandson of Nelson Mandela.
 * Ebrahim Patel serves as the Minister of Economic Development
 * Naledi Pandor
 * Enver Surty serves as the Deputy Minister of Basic Education
 * Fatima Chohan former Deputy Minister of Home Affairs
 * Ganief Hendricks, MP and leader of the Al Jama-ah

Religious

 * Ahmed Deedat was a Muslim missionary.
 * Ebrahim Desai, Muslim scholar and jurist

Television
In South Africa there are three TV channels dedicated to the broadcast of Islamic content: Hilal TV, which is aired on paid satellite platform DSTV; Hijazi Channel, and INX Prime, All these channels broadcast a combination of local and international Islamic content. The once famous ITV on DSTV has shut its doors after lengthy court battles.

Every weekday public TV channel SABC 1 broadcasts short religious programmes before the Siswati/Ndebele news at 17h30. Each day a different religion is represented, with "Reflections on Faith" being the Islamic edition, broadcast on Fridays 17H00-17H02. An Nur-The Light is a Muslim religious programme that airs on SABC 1 on Sunday mornings and interfaith programme. Spirit Sundae features Muslim event coverage, personal profiles and discusses issues pertaining to the community. Religions of South Africa also broadcasts information about Islam. Islam Channel is also available on DSTV to South African Muslims as well as other Muslim programmes on the DSTV Indian Bouqet.

Regional community TV station Cape Town TV (CTV) has weekly broadcasts of pre-recorded Jumuah (Friday) prayer sessions. During the month of Ramadan, CTV also brings viewers lectures from the days of fasting, which broadcasts every night between 21H30-22H30.

Radio
Muslim stations in South Africa are limited to regional, or community based coverage. These include Radio 786 (Cape Town), Radio Islam (Johannesburg), The Voice of the Cape (Cape Town), Channel Islam International (Johannesburg) and Radio Al Ansaar (Durban). "IFM Radio 88.3Fm (Port Elizabeth).

Print Publications
Newspapers include Muslim Views, and Al Qalam Newspaper.

Extremism
Generally, the local Muslim population are known to be peaceful, tolerant and moderate. However, the US state department listed two South African organisations that it claims were international terrorist organisations: People Against Gangsterism and Drugs (Pagad) and Qibla.

While Qibla and Pagad were active in violent activity in 2001, since then they have been involved in peaceful marches and protest actions, speaking out against war's in Iraq, Gaza, Darfur and other regions across the world.

Critics claim widespread corruption among police and officials, including the black market sale of South African passports, had undermined counter-terrorism efforts.

It was feared prior to the 2010 FIFA World Cup that extremists may have carried out attacks during the tournament and there were reports of Somali al-Qaeda, al-Shabab and militant run camps in neighbouring Mozambique. Despite this, no direct threats or attacks materialised.

The Muslim community in the country had organised a campaign to welcome guests into their country and homes, actively dispelling any perceived terrorism threats.

The campaign, labelled 'SA Muslims 2010', showcased Islam and Muslims in South Africa through various exhibitions, reflecting some of the community's 300-year history.

Muhammad cartoons
In May 2010, the local Mail & Guardian published a cartoon depicting Muhammad by Jonathan Shapiro (a.k.a. Zapiro) which sparked some uproar from the Muslim community. Death threats were made to Mr. Shapiro and the editor of the newspaper. An emergency court interdict was sought by The Council of Muslim Theologians (Jamiatul Ulama) to prevent the publishing of the cartoon, however the petition was denied by the presiding judge – who is herself a Muslim. The judge earlier chose not to recuse herself saying that her religious beliefs would not influence her. Zapiro created the cartoon in response to international outrage over the "Everybody Draw Muhammad Day" campaign of Facebook. Zapiro depicts the prophet Muhammad on a psychologist's couch moaning that, "other prophets have followers with a sense of humour!". The council stated that they feared violence in response and that the drawing may put the security of the 2010 FIFA World Cup at risk from extremists. It said that though it does not advocate violence, it would not be able to ensure that there would not be any. The editor of the paper said that, ""My view is no cartoon is as insulting to Islam as the assumption Muslims will react with violence," and said that the cartoon would not have been published if it was intended to be racist or Islamophobic. Zapiro stated that his cartoon was mild and not offensive and in no way similar to the Danish cartoon depicting Muhammad in a negative light. The following week, Zapiro published a cartoon of himself on a psychologists couch off-loading about the difficult week prior, and also saying, "The issue is depicting the prophet... it's that simple", and, "That's for adherents of Islam! Why should non-believers be censored? And there's the contradiction of all those ancient Iranian and Turkish Muhammad drawings... drawn by devout Muslims!". Further, "I'm sorry I'm being linked to that juvenile Islamophobic Facebook campaign. And I'm sorry if anyone's linked me to the Islamophobia of the U.S. 'war on terror'! ... Or the Burqa and minaret bans in Western Europe!", and that "making exceptions for religious censorship is hard for a cartoonist". An editorial piece opposite the cartoon stated that the paper "clearly underestimated the depth of anger ignited by the cartoon, and sincerely regret the sense of injury it caused many Muslims". Zapiro also noted the irony of being so harshly condemned by Muslims who often supported his pro-Palestinian drawing which angered his fellow Jews. Local clerics stated in a meeting with Zapiro that week that while they support freedom of expression, they do not support drawings of Muhammad. No violence or protests ensued after the cartoon was published and most local Muslims found it to be mild and some did not find it to be offensive and found the reaction of the council to have been exaggerated.

The Council of Muslim Theologians (Jamiatul Ulama) succeeded in 2006 in preventing the Sunday Times from publishing a controversial cartoon of Muhammad by a Danish cartoonist.

title: Islam in South Africa


text:
Wickliffe Draper

Wickliffe Preston Draper (August 9, 1891 – March 11, 1972) was an American political activist. He was an ardent eugenicist and lifelong advocate of strict racial segregation. In 1937, he founded the Pioneer Fund for eugenics and heredity research; he later became its principal benefactor.

Early life and education
Draper was born on August 9, 1891, in Hopedale, Massachusetts. He was the son and heir of Jessie Fremont Preston Draper, daughter of Confederate Brigadier General William Preston III, who had served as the United States Ambassador to Spain, until the American Civil War and George A. Draper, owner of Draper Looms textile and textile machinery manufacturers, who descended from generations of prominent Americans. He attended St. Mark's School in Southborough, Massachusetts.

Draper graduated from Harvard University in 1913. When the United States was slow to enter World War I, he enlisted in the British Army. When the U.S. eventually declared war, he transferred to the U.S. Army.

Postwar
In 1924, Draper established the Draper Armor Leadership Award, as a means to competitively test the leadership of small Cavalry units in the US Army. The test was oriented to the platoon level of Horse Cavalry. The first Cavalry Leadership Test for small units was held at Fort Riley, Kansas, then home of the Cavalry School. In 1928, Lieutenant Commander Draper established a trust fund of $35,000 to perpetuate the award.

In 1927, he participated in the French mission of Captain Marcel Augiéras to the southern Sahara that discovered the remains of "Asselar man", an extinct human believed to belong to the Holocene, or Recent Epoch. Some scholars consider it the oldest known skeleton of a black African. The French Société de Géographie subsequently awarded him its 1932 gold medal, the Grande Médaille d'Or des Explorations, and in Britain, he was elected a Fellow of the Royal Geographical Society. After the war, he traveled and went on numerous safaris. His large New York City apartment was reportedly filled with mounted trophies.

Eugenics and Pioneer Fund
During this time, Draper became interested in eugenics, which had been a popular movement in the United States during the first three decades of the 20th century. However, by the early 1930s, interest had begun to fade as the underlying science came under question. Groups like the American Eugenics Society (AES) faced declining membership and dwindling treasuries. Draper had helped ease the funding shortfall, making a special gift to the AES of several thousand dollars to support the society prior to 1932.

In August 1935, Draper traveled to Berlin to attend the International Congress for the Scientific Investigation of Population Problems. Presiding over the conference was Wilhelm Frick, the German Minister of the Interior. At the conference, Draper's travel companion, Dr. Clarence Campbell delivered an oration that concluded: "The difference between the Jew and the Aryan is as unsurmountable [sic] as that between black and white.... Germany has set a pattern which other nations must follow.... To that great leader, Adolf Hitler!"

Three years later, when Draper paid to print and disseminate the book White America by Earnest Sevier Cox, an advocate of white supremacy and racial segregation, a personal copy was delivered to Frick.

In 1937, Draper established the Pioneer Fund, a foundation intended to give scholarships to descendants of White American colonial-era families and to support research into "race betterment" through eugenics. The scholarships were never given, but the first project of the fund was to distribute two documentary films from Nazi Germany depicting its claimed success with eugenics. The Pioneer Fund was headed by the sociologist and eugenicist Harry H. Laughlin, an advocate for restrictive immigration laws and national programs of compulsory sterilization of the mentally ill and intellectually disabled.

At age 50, Draper again volunteered for military service and was assigned a post with British military intelligence in India during World War II. After the war, he returned to eugenicist and segregationist activism, and The Pioneer Fund supported the work of a number of noted and controversial researchers of race and intelligence, such as the Nobel Laureate William Shockley, the American differential psychologist Arthur Jensen, the Canadian evolutionary psychologist J. Philippe Rushton, and the British anthropologist Roger Pearson. Though he never served as the Pioneer Fund's president, Draper remained on its board until his death and left his estate to the Fund. He also donated considerable funds to right-wing political organizations and candidates, including the World Anti-Communist League (WACL), which was later headed by Pearson, who had received extensive funding from The Pioneer Fund and Draper during his career at Southern Mississippi University.

In addition to The Pioneer Fund, Draper financed the Back to Africa repatriation movement, particularly the work of Earnest Sevier Cox, whose book "White America" he also funded. During the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s he secretly sent $255,000 to the Mississippi State Sovereignty Commission in 1963 and 1964 to support racial segregation. He had also promoted opposition to the desegregation of public schools mandated by the Supreme Court's 1954 decision, Brown v. Board of Education. Those financial contributions came to light in the 1990s, when the Sovereignty Commission's records were made public. Doug A. Blackmon of The Wall Street Journal and Prof. William H. Tucker of Rutgers University discovered the incriminating documents.

Funding of Mississippi Sovereignty Commission
Draper was one of the primary out-of-state benefactors of the Mississippi State Sovereignty Commission (MSC), during 1963 and 1964. MSC attorney John Satterfield identified Draper's contributions, totaling over $250,000 as originating from "The Wall Street Gang" from the North. Doug Blackmon of The Wall Street Journal uncovered evidence of these contributions via Draper's J. P. Morgan trust account and published his results on June 11, 1999 in The Wall Street Journal.

The Reverend Gerald L. K. Smith also received $1,000,000 in the Spring of 1964 to build his "Christ of the Ozarks" shrine and tourist attraction in Eureka Springs, Arkansas. Smith's Cross and the Flag periodical advanced and promulgated Draper's positions and attitudes for three decades, from 1942 to 1972 when Smith died.

Draper opposed FDR's efforts to implement the Social Security Act, expanded child labor laws, and early attempts to pass the equivalent of OSHA-styled regulations. He disliked JFK for currying favor with labor unions, promoting civil rights advances, and failing to pass tariff barriers to prevent the import of foreign textiles and cotton. Draper blamed the actions of both presidents for the demise of the domestic textile industry that eventually caused the Draper Company to be dissolved by Rockwell International as an insolvent entity. Draper converted his equity in The Draper Company into a $100,000,000 windfall investment in Rockwell International preferred stock, when Rockwell expanded because of the Vietnam War.

Later life
Considered reclusive, Draper maintained a low profile throughout his life, as did the Pioneer Fund. When Draper died in 1972 from prostate cancer, he bequeathed $1.4 million to the Pioneer Fund.

Draper's work has become more controversial since the publication of The Bell Curve (1994), because the Pioneer Fund financially sponsored much of the research reported in the book. The publication of The Nazi Connection: Eugenics, American Racism, and German National Socialism (1994) by Stefan Kühl resulted in further publicity for Draper and the Fund.

title: Wickliffe Draper