text:
Talk:John Gray (American author)

Removed some
Removed some apparent copyvio (compare here).

Did John Gray divorce many times?
Another relationship book author pointed in his book, John Gray had divorced many times. Is it true? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lynxlea (talk • contribs) 13:52, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

No, John has only been married twice, divorced once. His one divorce is from his once co-relationship-expert, Barbara de Angelis. Ms. de Angelis has been married 5 times, which could be seen as making her much more experienced in relationships that John. Terraflora (talk) 15:01, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Requested move
John Gray (Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus) → John Gray (U.S. author) Much better title. --Hottentot

 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~

 * Support. A much simpler name. – AxSkov ( ☏ ) 06:05, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. Even if another JG exists who is a US author, I think this one's well enough known to be the primary "John Gray (U.S. author)". --Calair 23:48, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. Jonathunder 02:36, 2005 September 10 (UTC)

This article has been renamed after the result of a move request. Dragons flight 07:31, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

Discussion
'''His divorce was years before he became a relationship expert. The fact that he went through such pain may have been what caused him to learn so much.'''

24.8.106.182 (talk) 16:20, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Also-- if the school where he got his PHD was criticised-- is that really his fault?

24.8.106.182 (talk) 16:21, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Add any additional comments

There's nothing here about him but criticism. I mean it's nice to know that his Ph.D. has come under fire and that despite dispensing relationship advice he got divorced, but that doesn't tell us much about the person.

It's like the mass of negative information about Monty Roberts. I'm tempted to cut and paste the bulk of this article onto the talk page and leave a stub. Uncle Ed 17:50, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

This article is a silly ad hominem attack. Gray's books may or may not be pop-psychology bunk, but this stuff about his marital history and professional credentials is almost irrelevant. Only two sentences summarizing his work?

 * I'm not convinced the marital stuff is relevant, but his professional credentials certainly are. Gray is in the business of dispensing psychological advice, and in the course of that business he has repeatedly chosen to stand on his doctorate. His website offers "relationship advice from Dr John Gray". His books credit him as "John Gray, Ph.D". In an ideal world, maybe he would be judged solely on the quality of his ideas; in the real world, many people are more willing to believe an idea when it comes from somebody with a professional qualification. --Calair 23:13, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

 * The Dilbert comicstrip had a joke about a guy who would start a TV show and call himself a doctor - albeit he was not - because then he could call people stupid and they would thank him for it. Patchouli 02:18, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Crummy article
The John Gray page is long on critical REMARKS but short on substance. It says hardly anything about his teachings - other than "men differ from women". And the criticism is, "That's a simplistic stereotype." --Uncle Ed 14:59, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

 * There's some more information about his teachings at Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus - it's not particularly well-written, but it certainly has more detail about Gray's ideas than this article does. Likewise, it expands on the criticisms of those ideas.

 * Duplicating that discussion doesn't seem like a useful thing to do, but what about merging the two pages? If he'd written a wide range of unrelated books it'd make sense to discuss each of them separately, but the ideas presented in 'Mars and Venus' are at the heart of just about everything Gray's done since; I think it makes more sense to discuss them here, as a body of work, than have an individual page for each book.

 * The criticism of his ideas belongs in the same place as discussion of those ideas, whether that's in the Mars & Venus article or here. Material about his qualifications should be in this article. --Calair 22:56, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I vote to merge Mars & Venus into John Gray. This combined article could begin with his bio, the controversy over his degree, and then launch into his views and critical respons:
 * 1) Gray's background
 * 2) Gray and his PhD
 * 3) Gray's psychological views about gender differences
 * 4) Critical respones to Gray's views

Good outline? --Uncle Ed 01:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

 * Works for me. --Calair 03:07, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Birth
In what year was John Gray born?Patchouli 02:14, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

 * The article says 1951. --Calair 05:27, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Name on Identification Card
This John Gray his pseudonym?Patchouli 22:04, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
 * No, John Gray is his real name. He goes by Johnny Gray in real life, or that's what the family calls him. I met him at a family reunion a few years ago. One of our great aunts was at the time very old and had a lot of health issues (she has since passed away), and he got everyone's attention in the family so that he could do some kind of eastern magic on this aunt. This was in Sedona, where there are supposedly "lane lines" of energy coming together. He was wearing a very unattractive V-neck shirt which showed his chest hair at the time--I remember it distinctly. He has scraggly hair, and one of the Grays there, this guy with long black hair who was supposedly one of our cousins, lamented to my prepubescent sister that "there are so many hot girls here! Too bad I'm related to them all!" I hope someone found this useful or entertaining.

Nonetheless, some of his writing is ingeniously valid! Like the point system.

Do people with low self-esteem feel a need to drag down successful people? I think the answer is yes...

24.8.106.182 (talk) 16:24, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

CPU Accreditation
CPU was never accredited. At one time it held California approval but was never accredited. I propose changing the parenthetical comment, (although it is not clear whether these degrees were ever accredited) to (approved in California by the CPPVE but always unaccredited). Bill Huffman 19:22, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok.--72.202.129.98 08:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Note that I reverted a recent change (by an anon) calling CPU a diploma. I contend that the term diploma mill evokes an pov that is not neutral and open to interpretation. For example, to many diploma mill indicates an illegal institution. Prior to 1997 CPU was not an illegal institution. Regards, Bill Huffman 05:47, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree, it's not encyclopaedic language and shouldn't be used unless in the context of a properly-attributed quote (as is done later in the article).

 * On the other hand, I don't think it's appropriate to include the PhD in the introduction without some acknowledgement that its worth is questionable - CPU was legal at the time but not accredited, and as the quote from Rubin shows it already had a bad name when Gray got his PhD. IMHO, better just to postpone the issue altogether until later in the article where it can be properly addressed. --Calair 12:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree. Nice edit. Thanks, Bill Huffman 20:05, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Columbia Pacific University (CPU): A Victim of Miscarriage of Justice and Sensationalist Media
Dirty Politics and Libelous Announcements

Irresponsible and libelous media announcements have defamed Columbia Pacific University (CPU) as a diploma mill. In reality CPU was supervised and approved by the California State Department of Education. Effective 1986-1989, California documents confirm that CPU's full institutional approval was the equivalent of regional accreditation,. Thus, CPU was a California State Accredited University. CPU degrees are legal and valid! California newspapers, such as the Point Reyes Light and the Union Tribune in San Diego published misinforming articles about CPU but failed to set the record straight when I submitted to the editors letters requesting appropriate corrections.

The closing of CPU resulted not from valid educational considerations but from the dirty politics of higher education in California. Mind you, the judicial system is often not about truth and justice but about power and money. Miscarriage of justice is a common phenomenon. CPU was closed on the basis of a fabricated report full of factual errors and insubstantial allegations. For example, it absurdly claimed that Harvard-trained psychiatrist Dr. Richard Crews was unfit to serve as the President of CPU because he was an MD and not a PhD. Another preposterous and prejudiced assertion was directed against the black deans of CPU holding PhDs from well-known European universities. The deans in question were Dr. Ketsela, graduate of the University of Wales, and Dr. Tolossa, graduate of the University of Bremen,. The report falsely alleged that these European universities are unaccredited. There were over 80 errors of fact in the report rendering it completely worthless.

Error of Fact Number 28: The Spanish Dissertation

Error of Fact Number 28, for example, has become quite famous and mentioned in a variety of media articles. It concerns a Spanish dissertation that allegedly was approved by faculty who did not speak Spanish. In reality, the CPU faculty mentor who supervised the dissertation worked with the student in Spanish and the doctoral thesis provided Table of Contents, Summary and additional information in English. Moreover, CPU policy changed in early 1995, so that dissertations could be submitted only in English. Documented refutation of all the false claims against CPU has been published on line in "The Chronicles of Columbia Pacific University",. Please, note that CPU graduates earned their degrees through competency and hard work. Thousands of them teach at accredited schools or work in research, civil service, business and industry. The defamation of the good name of CPU as a pioneer of distance education is unfair and unacceptable. Today CPU is a federally recognized non-profit educational institution,.

Pluralistic Education is a Necessity

I believe that Pluralistic Education advances the Public Good and therefore it is not only a Democratic Right but also a Necessity. We live in the electronic age that can provide the technology for the development of an information society in which education becomes accessible to broad segments of humankind. The rise of cybernetic culture in the global village can bring distance learning even to the most remote areas of the world. It helps education to be more democratic. Knowledge is power. Education empowers people to become an integral part of a well-informed citizenry, enabling them to create a constructive culture of social and political democracy. Today virtual schools allow the realization of the once-utopic vision of education for all. Unfortunately, the development of virtual schools is also accompanied by the proliferation of Diploma Mills, bogus universities that are in the business of selling fake academic degrees. The infestation of the academic world with diploma mills is accompanied by the problem of how to separate the wheat from the chaff, the wide-spread inability of the public to differentiate between legitimate and illegitimate educational institutions. Authoritarian Measures Suffocate Creativity It was Albert Einstein who stressed that imagination is more important than knowledge and that the outstanding accomplishments of the intellect are based on the freedom of thought. In Ideas and Opinions (1954) he points out that the development of science and of the creative activities of the spirit require inner freedom, "the independence of thought from the restrictions of authoritarian and social prejudices as well as from unphilosophical routinizing and habit in general" (p. 42). And he adds: Schools might play constructive or destructive roles. They may favour inward freedom and encourage independent thought but they may also interfere and repress them through authoritarian measures. Another leading thinker, Nicholas Negroponte, Professor of Media Technology at MIT, maintains that bureaucratic organizations are the enemies of creative environments. In "Where Do New Ideas Come From?" (Wire, 4.01), he observes that governments and corporations are sterile leagues that stifle imagination and creativity. This is a pity, he says, because we need innovative schools to develop, foster and nurture new ideas for human progress. Prof. Negroponte views the university as an unsettled habitat with undefined edges accommodating academics as well as people "who don't fit traditional scholarship" because new ideas come from a muddled creative environment.

A CPU Connection

Allow me please to add a note about my affiliation with CPU. After graduating from high school in Hungary, I attended for two years the University of Szeged. I hold a BA and a Teacher's Certificate from the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, and a Master's (History and Art History) from Concordia University in Montreal ( Canada). I wrote my thesis on Georg Lukacs: Aesthetics and History. I completed all my doctoral course requirements at Concordia, did additional work at Columbia Pacific University and wrote my dissertation on The Interface Dynamics of Art and Science (1986). In the process of researching my doctoral thesis I collaborated with a group of renowned scientists and scholars, including P.R. Halmos (Editor of the American Mathematical Monthly), Sir Nevill Mott (Nobel Laureate in Physics) and John Kemeny (Dartmouth College President). Under the title, The Brush and the Compass, the dissertation was published in 1988 by University Press of America, an umbrella academic clearing house of Harvard, Columbia, Stanford and others. The book has been internationally acclaimed and also taught in anthropology, art and science and other interdisciplinary courses. I am also the author of A History of Architecture (Jerusalem: R. Mass, 1972), as well as of other critically acclaimed books, and have published numerous scholarly papers in such peer-reviewed journals as Leonardo, Orbiter, Ylem, Pulsar, Contemporary Philosophy, Q.A.M.T. and Lo Straniero.

Paul Hartal 04:19, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Hi Paul, I thank you for all the information on CPU. I have heard some of the details before but I find it personally interesting to learn more. There were/are a number of California approved schools that in my personal opinion should have been closed down rather than CPU. In my mind this whole sad story is indicative of the extra dangers that come with unaccredited schools. Thank you again, Bill Huffman 08:16, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Bill,

I appreciate your response. Thank you.

Paul Hartal 02:31, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Alternattive Institutions Sometimes get slammed by the accreditation system just for being a bit alternative-- many famous and now accredited schools like Naropa and Evergreen University had such problems...

24.8.106.182 (talk) 16:27, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Gray's PhD: Who Cares?
Why is everyone so ticked that this man doesn't have a fancy enough Ph.D.? Even if the CPU doctorate is bogus, many best-selling authors only have B.A.s. Obviously, Gray is not an expert; that should be noted in the wiki article, as it is, voluminously!. However, despite his book's shoddy methodology, it did sell over a million copies, and has positively influenced lives. Shouldn't that be as noteworthy in the article as the potshots everyone's taking at his credibility? M. Frederick 03:31, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I think that it would be a good idea to expand on the article in some of the ways that you suggest. The number of books that he sold would improve the article significantly, in my opinion. Positively influencing lives would also be good if you could find such a statment from a reliable source. I do think that his academic credentials are also relevant to the article. I agree with you though some positive balance would improve the article greatly. Bill Huffman 06:33, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

@M. Frederick - The fact that the book sold a million copies is a sham. Gray's work was an intellectual ripoff of Deborah Tannen and her colleages work. He positvely influenced people's lives by stealing other people's work. Therefore, all the shots taken at Gray are completely acceptable and valid. -cablex1814

I would not have bought his first and second books, I do not believe, had I not believed I was getting my information from a highly learned individual. The converse is likewise valid, why would he post such credentials if he knew they were subject to so much contest??? Because he knew it would sell books. I feel cheated by John Gray, and there's no recourse for me to get any compensation for the trickery I fell victim to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.16.9.49 (talk) 18:57, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Unaccredited Doctorate Undue Weight
John Gray has a Ph.D. from an unaccredited school that was closed down by the state of California. That is different from saying he doesn't have a Ph.D.. To state such is unencyclopedic, a violation of wp:npov since it is not stated in a neutral tone, a violation of wp:blp, and gives undue weight to the fact which is already covered elsewhere in detail in this very small article. All my opinion, of course, but if you disagree then please let's discuss it here and perhaps I'll change my mind. Regards, TallMagic (talk) 21:08, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Section Removed
I have removed this section which is poorly sourced and has no reason to be in the article. At the time Gray received his degree CPU was a valid University that issued valid degrees. The fact that the University was later discredited and closed down is irrelevant to the article subject.--—Kbob • Talk  • 16:45, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * He was featured prominently in Columbia Pacific's marketing literature in the 1990s prior to its subsequent court-ordered shutdown in 2000.

 * Thank you for the improvments to the article. TallMagic (talk) 17:11, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Education
I realize that Gray's education credentials are a bit unclear but we should try to be as accurate as possible. Here's what the sources actually say: --—Kbob • Talk  • 22:44, 2 January 2010 (UTC) Editors note: I struck the above quote as it did not jive with the source I cited which was a repeat of the LA Times citation.--—Kbob • Talk  • 21:41, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * " Mr. Gray got a couple of degrees from the Maharishi International University in Iowa, followed by a doctorate in psychology from an unaccredited school, Columbia Pacific University"
 * "He had previously boasted of Bachelor's and Master's degrees from the Maharishi European Research University in Switzerland. His assistant explained to CultNews that his degrees came from the American branch of the university, which is located in Iowa" NOTE: this is a 'reprint' of a NY Post article which appears on the Rick Ross site. Isn't there a guideline about these kinds of sources? Can we get the original?
 * "His bachelor's and master's degrees in Eastern philosophy are from the Maharishi European Research University in Switzerland." |title=

 * Right. So how do we get from there to:
 * He received a "bachelor's and master's degree in Eastern Philosophy from the Maharishi European Research University in Switzerland" of from the its American branch in Iowa.
 * None of the sources say he received degrees from both institutions, or that MIU was a branch of MERU [see below].   Will Beback    talk    23:23, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

 * Gray picked up a bachelor's and a master's degree in Eastern philosophy from the Maharishi International University.
 * A global ambassador to the sexes; [FINAL Edition] Karen S. Peterson. USA TODAY (pre-1997 Fulltext). McLean, Va.: Mar 28, 1994. pg. 01.D
 * Book critics also don't trust what they consider Gray's flimsy credentials (bachelor's and master's degrees from Maharishi International University and a Ph.D. through a correspondence course with Columbia Pacific University).
 * The gender game/ Author John Gray finds success with a message to men and women: Can't we all get along? Deb Acord, Gazette Telegraph. Colorado Springs Gazette - Telegraph. Colorado Springs, Colo.: Nov 15, 1994. pg. D.1
 * Gray spent nine years as a celibate monk with the Maharishi, earning bachelor's and master's degrees from Maharishi International University.
 * Charismatic author fuels interest in; [Final Edition] Mitchell Landsberg. Las Vegas Review - Journal. Las Vegas, Nev.: Oct 8, 1995. pg. 8.D
 * He earned bachelor's and master's degrees from Maharishi International University.
 * WATER AND HEALING ARE THE LATEST PASSIONS OF MARS-VENUS GURU; [FIVE STAR LIFT Edition] John M. McGuire Of the Post-Dispatch. St. Louis Post - Dispatch. St. Louis, Mo.: Aug 20, 2000. pg. E.1
 * ''. He also has a BA and an MA in "creative intelligence" from International University run by the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.
 * Men may be from Mars, but hard: to say what planet this guy's from Jan Wong. The Globe and Mail. Toronto, Ont.: Feb 9, 2002. pg. F.2
 * A child of two Stanford graduates and one of seven children, he was a monk for nine years after receiving a master's degree in the "science of creative intelligence" at Maharishi International University in Fairfield, Iowa.
 * Mars and Venus at work ; Critics aim to bring Gray back down to Earth Lauren Murphy, THE WASHINGTON TIMES. Washington Times. Washington, D.C.: Feb 14, 2002. pg. A.02
 * The fifth of seven children born to a Texan oilman and a stay-at-home mother, Mr. Gray got a couple of degrees from the Maharishi International University in Iowa, followed by a doctorate in psychology from an unaccredited school, Columbia Pacific University.
 * Looking to God for relationship advice Sarah Hampson. The Globe and Mail. Toronto, Ont.: Feb 4, 2008. pg. L.1
 *  His bachelor's and master's degrees in Eastern philosophy are from the Maharishi European Research University in Switzerland.
 * Mars, Venus . . . and Cupid Men and women seem to be from different planets. John Gray's message: Come back to Earth and deal with it.; [Home Edition] ABIGAIL GOLDMAN. Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 12, 1994. pg. 1
 * He'd also graduated with a BA and MA in creative intelligence from the Maharishi European Research University.
 * Writer on another planet; [2 Edition] SWAIN, Pauline. Dominion. Wellington, New Zealand: Jun 24, 1996. pg. 11
 * He has bachelor's and master's degrees in creative intelligence from the Maharishi European Research University and a doctorate in psychology and human sexuality by correspondence from Columbia Pacific University in San Rafael, Calif.
 * LOST IN SPACE AUTHOR ARGUES MEN, WOMEN STILL NO CLOSER THAN MARS, VENUS; [Home Final Edition] Mary Bridgman Dispatch Accent Reporter. Columbus Dispatch. Columbus, Ohio: Oct 14, 1996. pg. 01.B
 * PERHAPS Mr Gray's unique approach owes something to his time with the Maharishi European Research University in Switzerland, where he was, according to an article in Newsweek, secretary to the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.
 * Men are from Mars, women are from Venus, suckers are from Earth ... The latest heavily hyped guide to the secret of success is heading our way from California. MELANIE McDONAGH fears this marks another advance in the Americanisation of British culture; [C Edition] Melanie Mcdonagh. Evening Standard. London (UK): Mar 26, 1999. pg. 30
 * There are discrepancies about Gray's other educational claims as well. He had previously boasted of Bachelor's and Master's degrees from the Maharishi European Research University in Switzerland. His assistant explained to CultNews that his degrees came from the American branch of the university, which is located in Iowa. A call to both the school's registrar and its alumi association yielded no proof he ever attended.
 * WRITER'S EDUCATION FROM MARS New York Post. New York, N.Y.: Nov 13, 2003. pg. 012
 * I think it's best to cover the discrepancy by simply saying he received his degrees from one or the other institution. to say he received the degrees from both would be an unsupported assumption.   Will Beback    talk    23:46, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the sources Will. You are correct in saying that a)many sources cite MUM b)that there are others that cite MERU and c)only one source makes the connection between MERU and Iowa which may or may not refer to MUM. I also agree that to say they came from both is an unsupported assumption. However, doesn't the reader deserve to know about the conflicting reports. Shouldn't we say something to that effect? Such as: "Sources vary as to whether his bachelor's and master's degrees were received from MERU in Switzerland or MUM in Iowa". --—Kbob • Talk  • 21:40, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree entirely that we should report the different versions, which is what I'd intended originally. The text you propose is even better. The only change I'd make is to call it MIU rather than MUM.   Will Beback    talk    21:58, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Good, I see you have also included this point on the MUM Alumni section. Good work.--—Kbob • Talk  • 20:16, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Bernstein
I removed the following text recently added to the article because it was not directly about Gray.
 * "On March 22, 2011 the CEO of Mars Venus Coaching Richard Bernstein was arrested for Theft and Operating without a Securities License. http://www.mynews3.com/category.php?id=5404&n=5037 http://www.bluemaumau.org/ceo_bernstein_mars_venus_coaching_faces_felony_charges" --BwB (talk) 16:30, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

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NPOV
This article is a mess. The source cited for his degrees and certifications...is a source which explicitly states those claims are inaccurate. Another source clearly contesting his claims has also been cited to support those same claims.

Basically all of the information about him personally is primary, whether it be from his website, associated websites, or interviews. Most of the other sources are either unreliable, opinion pieces, or dead links and unrecoverable. Vermont (🐿—🏳🌈) 01:18, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:John Gray (American author)


text:
When Will Jesus Bring the Pork Chops?

When Will Jesus Bring the Pork Chops? (2004) is the penultimate book written by George Carlin. He came up with the title because it offends all three major religions (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam). The book at first was not sold at Wal-Mart because its cover, which portrays Da Vinci's The Last Supper, depicted Carlin sitting next to the empty seat of Jesus. It is the fourth book by Carlin, the previous ones being Napalm and Silly Putty (2001), Brain Droppings (1997), and Sometimes a Little Brain Damage Can Help (1984). It was followed by the posthumous publication in 2009 of his "sortabiography" Last Words.

This book is for the most part written in the same style of Carlin's other books, but with some notable thematic differences. In general, the tone of the book is darker and more critical than his previous books in terms of its outlook on politics and society. Also, much of the book is focused on euphemisms, both as used in advertising and in politically correct language. The book also incorporates much of Carlin's standup material from across his career, taking segments from his most recent shows, as well as many of his very early performances.

An audiobook version of When Will Jesus Bring the Pork Chops?, read by Carlin, was released at the same time as the book.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: When Will Jesus Bring the Pork Chops?


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User talk:DasChinatowner

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! --Flockmeal 05:15, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)
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Huh?
I totally don't get your edit summary (at Chinatown) "it was addressed in a peer-reviewed scholarly journal article about how they come to define perceptions." There is no citation at all! If this comes from a claim in a "peer-reviewed scholarly journal", then cite it. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:51, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

 * What's there not to get? If you "don't get it", then we'll just leave it at that.  I haven't the inclination to satisfy arbitrary demands.  This is not a term paper anyhow.

Image Tagging Image:Cantonese roast duck in Los Angeles Chinatown.jpg
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Talk:Brownian noise

Derivation in Spectrum section is factually wrong
Brownian noise in this article is said to be the "spectrum" of a noise process generated by a Brownian Motion (Wiener Process). This is a non-stationary process, since the covariance and correlation function are known to be (taken from the Wiki page of Wiener Process):

 * $$ \operatorname{cov}(W_s,W_t) = \min(s,t) \,, $$

 * $$ \operatorname{corr}(W_s,W_t) = {\mathrm{cov}(W_s,W_t) \over \sigma_{W_s} \sigma_{W_t}} = \frac{\min(s,t)}{\sqrt{st}} = \sqrt{ \frac{ \min(s,t) }{ \max(s,t) } } \, .$$

One should remember that the power spectral density is well defined only for wide sense stationary processes, those whose autocorrelation function only depends on the difference $$ t-s $$. The Wiener Process clearly does not satisfy this requirement, thus it does not have a well-defined power spectrum. That's why if you google all over the internet you'll never find anywhere but here that states that the Wiener process has a 1/f^2 spectrum. The derivation of this section is not correct because it uses the formula:

 * $$ |\operatorname{Y}(\omega)|^2 = |\operatorname{X}(\omega)|^2 |\operatorname{H}(\omega)|^2 $$

where $$ \operatorname{Y}(\omega), \operatorname{X}(\omega), \operatorname{H}(\omega) $$ are the output (brownian motion), system (integrator), and input(white noise). This equation only holds true when the input is a stationary process (satisfied for white noise) and if the system is stable. The integrator system is however not stable for any inputs with a DC frequency component since integrators of DC blow up as t-> infinity, and the white noise process has a DC component (non-zero at f = 0) and thus does not satisfy the requirements for using this.

Now I do not dispute that brownian noise with a spectrum of 1/f^2 exists. However the explanation in this section is wrong. The correct reasoning is that 1/f^2 noise spectrum arises from viewing a leaky integrator of white noise after it reaches equilibrium (stationarity).

A leaky integrator has the form:

 * $$ \operatorname{H}(s) = \frac{\omega_n}{\omega_n + s}$$
 * $$ |\operatorname{H}(\omega)|^2 = \frac{\omega_n^2}{\omega_n^2 + \omega^2}$$

This system, unlike the ideal integrator producing Brownian Motion, is stable, and the outputs are stationary when integrating white noise. Observing this process at frequencies far greater than $$\omega_n$$, you will find a 1/f^2 dependence in the spectrum, which is the characteristic of brownian noise. I would suggest those with access to IEEE refer to the work of

Demir: Computing Timing Jitter From Phase Noise Spectra for Oscillators and Phase-Locked Loops With White and 1/f Noise (2006) TCAS-I http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=1703773

Column 1 pg 1873 where he analyzes the same problem and points out its logical fallacy. I will edit the spectrum section with the modified definition soon. SCfan84 (talk) 07:53, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Brown noise does not cause you to defecate
The brown noise was also a South Park joke, something the French had experimented in, which has some basis in reality.
 * Acoustic, Infrasound. Very low-frequency sound which can travel long distances and easily penetrate most buildings and vehicles. Transmission of long wavelength sound creates biophysical effects; nausea, loss of bowels, disorientation, vomiting, potential internal organ damage or death may occur. Superior to ultrasound because it is "in band" meaning that its [sic] does not lose its properties when it changes mediums [sic] such as from air to tissue. By 1972 an infrasound generator had been built in France which generated waves at 7 hertz. When activated it made the people in range sick for hours. Nonlethal Weapons: terms and references INNS Occasional Paper 15, 1997, pp 2,3 Kwantus 05:17, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC) thanks to TMH
 * I remember the South Park episode calling it a 'brown note' not 'brown noise,' perhaps just a link to brown note is sufficient? --Morbid-o 20:15, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm watching it right now and they say "brown noise." (If I'd heard "brown note" I'd've put it in "brown note".) Episode 317 according to transcripts. Kwantus 01:43, 2005 May 5 (UTC)
 * They have to mean the brown note though, because it exactly fits that disputed audio effect, and has nothing to do with brown noise. Probably a minor mistake on their part. -- Northgrove 23:01, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Brown noise makes you defecate

This was the assertion on an episode of the British tongue-in-cheek popular science television show Brainiac: Science Abuse. __meco 09:21, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

 * We are well aware. See brown note. — Omegatron 16:29, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

 * That's the brown note, not brown noise you idiot.:

 * This isn't a dictionary. Articles are about concepts; not definitions.  The article brown note is about shitting your pants, and mentions that it's called both "brown note" and "brown noise".  This article is about signal noise, which is a totally different concept. — Omegatron 00:38, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Red or brown?
After this post brown noise is not exactly the same as red noise. There it is explained that the name "red" was already taken to name brown (after brownian motion) noise: "If we were going to pick a color, red might be good since pink noise lies between this noise and white noise. Unfortuantly, red is already taken. AKA "random walk" or "drunkard's walk" noise". Default007 16:23, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Isnt Brownian noise 1/F^2 ? This page says that it is proportional to F^2. "Its spectral density is proportional to f²" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.43.183 (talk) 02:44, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 09:45, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Brown noise spectrum graph in prev-page is wrong
1(or n)/f^2 it's spectral graph is like 'L'. Brown noise spectrum graph in prev-page is like 1/f. brown noise's spectral graph in prev-page is wrong.

below is fourier fomula(frequency anlaysis) $$ \mathcal{F}[f^\prime(t)](\omega) = \imath \omega \mathcal{F}[f(t)](\omega) $$  $$W(t) = \int _{-\infty}^{+\infty} dW(t) $$

this is white noise fomula. $$S(\omega) = S_0 $$.

brown noise downed 6db per octave.  $$ S(\omega)= \frac{S_0^2}{\omega^2} $$ $$ S(2\omega )= \frac{S_0^2}{\omega^2} -6db $$ $$ \frac{S_0^2}{(2\omega)^2} = \frac{S_0^2}{\omega^2} -6db $$ $$ \frac{S_0^2}{4\omega^2} = \frac{S_0^2}{\omega^2} -6db $$ $$ \frac{S_0^2}{\omega^2}-\frac{S_0^2}{4\omega^2} = 6db $$ $$ \frac{S_0^24\omega^2 - S_0^2\omega^2 }{4\omega^4} = 6db $$ $$ S_0^2 \frac{ 3\omega^2 }{4\omega^4} = 6db $$ $$ S_0^2 \frac{ 3 }{4\omega^2} = 6db $$ pink noise downed 3db per octave.
 $$S(f) \propto 1/f^\alpha$$(ƒ is frequency and 0 < α < 2)
 $$ S(\omega)= \frac{S_0}{\omega}$$
 $$ S(2\omega )= \frac{S_0}{\omega} - 3db$$
 $$ \frac{S_0}{2\omega}= \frac{S_0}{\omega} - 3db$$
 $$ \frac{S_0}{\omega} - \frac{S_0}{2\omega}= 3db$$
 $$ S_0\frac{2\omega-\omega}{2\omega^2}= 3db$$
 $$ S_0\frac{\omega}{2\omega^2}= 3db$$
 $$ S_0\frac{1}{2\omega}= 3db$$

are you understand? decibel is not equl power value of frequency spectrum.

211.204.114.196 (talk) 17:13, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Requested move 15 October 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved Fuortu (talk) 22:20, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Brownian noise → Brown noise – Per WP:COMMONNAME, since "Brown noise" is the common name for such noise despite technically not referring to the color (where the tern "Red noise" more accurately describes the color spectrum of such noise). ANDROS1337 TALK 19:41, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

 * Oppose – no evidence has been presented for the assertion that Brown noise is a more common term for it. Dicklyon (talk) 02:30, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Every video on YouTube calls it "Brown noise". Go see for yourself.   ANDROS1337  TALK 04:10, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, I see that YouTube has more "brown noise" than "brownian noise". That's not exactly a survey of reliable sources, though, and as Binksternet says below, not clearly the same topic. Dicklyon (talk) 05:29, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Brown noise and Brownian noise are two completely different things. Binksternet (talk) 05:02, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose Google Books has more for "Brownian noise" and most of the "Brown noise" are either unreliable sources or referring to something else In ictu oculi (talk) 07:10, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose – Brownian noise is a scientifically well-defined topic. — JFG talk 16:25, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Notations for white noise and Wiener process
The notations for both processes are the same: W(t) -which creates inconsistent statements in the page. I have found η(t), ξ(t), of $$\dot{W}(t)$$ (assuming white noise is the time-derivative of the Wiener process in an appropriate sense, and the dot signifies time-derivative), as notations for white noise, after a quick search. Can anyone correct that or explain to me why leave the page as is ? Thank you. Plm203 (talk) 05:22, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Suggest merging with article Brownian Surface
I suggest merging the article with the article "Brownian Surface", as both are one and the same. Pia novice (talk) 08:18, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Paragraph "Production" needs to be revised
First, "Brown noise can be produced by adding a random offset to each sample to obtain the next one" is only applicable to one dimension.

Second, the images and the link to the Matlab script by Das are nice. Unfortunately, they do only create noise which is visually similar to Brownian noise, but the correlation structure dissimilar from that of Brownian noise. This is because Brownian noise is not stationary which requires special considerations when generating it via the Fourier Transform. There are many simple 2D Brownian noise generators from the field of image processing, which unfortunately all suffer from similar issues. A method for generating Brownian noise with exact correlation structure is described in "Fast and Exact Simulation of Fractional Brownian Surfaces M.L. Stein (2002)". A Matlab implementation is available from Zdravko Botev, 2016

Third, "generation" seems a more suitable heading than "production". Pia novice (talk) 08:38, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Brownian noise


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Descendants of Darkness

Descendants of Darkness (闇の末裔) is a Japanese manga series written and illustrated by Yoko Matsushita. The story revolves around shinigami. These Guardians of Death work for Enma Daiō, the king of the dead, sorting out the expected and unexpected arrivals to the Underworld.

An anime television series adaptation by J.C.Staff aired on Wowow from October to December 2000.

Plot
Asato's catchphrase:"Those who live in darkness, wander aimlessly"

Series introduction:"In matters related to the world of the dead, there is an institution that judges the sins of the deceased; The Ministry of Hades, the Summon Section of the Judgement Bureau comprisesof [sic] groups supporting the ministry's operating functions by guiding the lost souls that wander the mortal world. They are also known as the Guardians of Death."

Asato Tsuzuki has been a 'Guardian of Death' for over 70 years. He has the power to call upon twelve shikigami, mythical creatures that aid him in battle. The manga portrays Tsuzuki's relationship with the shinigami in much more detail. Tsuzuki is the senior partner of the Second Division, which watches over the region of Kyūshū.

In the anime, the story begins when Chief Konoe, the boss, and the other main characters discussing recent murders in Nagasaki. The victims all have bite marks and a shortage of blood, which leads to the case being known as "The Vampire Case."

After some food troubles, Tsuzuki travels to Nagasaki with Gushoshin, a flying creature/helper who can speak, and together they do a bit of investigating. The rule is that Guardian of Death are supposed to work in pairs, and until Tsuzuki meets up with his new partner, he needs someone to watch him. However, Gushoshin gets held back by groceries, and Tsuzuki is on his own.

While exploring Nagasaki, Tsuzuki hears a scream and has a run-in with a strange white-haired woman with red eyes, who leaves blood on his collar. Taking this as is a sign that the woman might be the vampire, Tsuzuki tries to follow her. He comes to a church called Oura Cathedral, where he meets the story's primary antagonist, Muraki.

Doctor Kazutaka Muraki is initially portrayed as a pure figure, with much religious and color symbolism. He meets Tsuzuki with tears in his eyes and Tsuzuki, thrown off, asks if Muraki has seen a woman recently. Muraki says no body has been in the church, and Tsuzuki leaves. Tsuzuki later learns that the woman that he encountered is Maria Won, a famous singer from China.

From there Tsuzuki continues through Nagasaki into the area of the city known as Glover Garden, where he is held at gunpoint from behind. His attacker tells him to turn around, and when he does, he discovers a young man glaring at him. He suspects this man is the vampire. Tsuzuki is then saved by Gushoshin. Afterwards Tsuzuki learns that the boy is Hisoka Kurosaki, his new partner, and the rest of the story is heavily based on character development and the relationships between characters.

Later in the Nagasaki Arc (the first fourth of the anime series, and the first collection of the manga), Hisoka is kidnapped by Muraki, and the truth about his death is revealed. Tsuzuki rescues him after his "date" with Muraki, and the series follows the relationship between these three characters, supported and embellished by the rest of the cast.

Manga
The manga was serialized in Hakusensha's semi-monthly shōjo manga magazine, Hana to Yume from the 14th issue of 1996 until the author decided to put the story on hiatus in the 2nd issue of 2003. The published chapters have been collected in 12 volumes with the 12th volume published on January 19, 2010 with revisions that differ from the chapters originally serialized in the magazine. The series resumed serialization in Hana to Yume magazine in the September 2011 issue. The English-language version is published by Viz Media that originally released the first volume on September 14, 2004, and the eleventh on May 2, 2006. From volume 10 onwards the English edition adjusts the chapter enumeration, giving the Japanese and English editions different chapter numbers.

Anime
An anime adaptation of the manga aired on WOWOW beginning on October 10, 2000, to June 24, 2001. The anime was directed by Hiroko Tokita and was animated by J.C. Staff. The series was divided by four story arcs. Central Park Media had licensed the series and released them on DVD in 2003. The series initially aired on AZN Television in 2004. In 2008, the series, along with a few other CPM titles, was aired on Sci-Fi Channel's Ani-Monday block in 2008 and then on their sister network Chiller in 2009. In Canada, the anime series was shown on Super Channel 2 beginning on December 8, 2008. Discotek Media has since licensed the anime and will re-release the series in 2015. The series opening theme is "Eden" by To Destination, while the closing theme is "Love Me" by The Hong Kong Knife.

Reception
Descendants of Darkness has been called "a gateway drug into shōnen-ai and yaoi" despite it not really being as such. Anime News Network praised the TV series' humor. Descendants of Darkness sold 10,000 copies in its first few months on the English-language market. Volume 5 of the series ranked 6th in the week ending of May 22, 2005, according to BookScan's Graphic Novel List.

title: Descendants of Darkness


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Halcyon (console)

The Halcyon is an unreleased home video game console produced by RDI Video Systems. The system was planned to be released in January 1985, with the initial retail price for the system being US$2500. Fewer than a dozen units are known to exist and it never reached retailers because of a lack of affordable disc players. The design featured a LaserDisc player and an attached computer, each the size of an early-model VCR. Of the six games planned, only two games were released: Thayer's Quest and NFL Football LA Raiders vs SD Chargers. RDI Video Systems claimed that the system would be entirely voice-activated, and would have an artificial intelligence akin to HAL 9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey.

History
Rick Dyer was one of the many fans of the interactive fiction game, Adventure, and wanted to develop his own game, Shadoan, which was an expansive fantasy game inspired by The Lord of the Rings. System costs were intended to range from $1,800 to $2,100 (equivalent to $ to $ in ), depending on the model.

Hardware
Halcyon was based around the Z80 microprocessor, with its 64K memory partitioned out to ROM and RAM. A separate speech recognition computer provided the additional power needed to recognize human speech. Its firmware was proprietary, and its chief communications with the Z80 were indications of what word it had recognized, and what probability of confidence it calculated for the match. Other functions this subsystem provided were non-volatile memory storage, and speech recognition training.

Video content existed on a special computer-controlled CED player provided by RCA. Because of video encoding and stylus positioning constraints inherent in this technology, still frames (where action would be suspended pending player input) had to be encoded as a repeat of 2 or 3 seconds of video. Late in its development, Halcyon had to be re-designed to use Laserdisc players because CED units were put out of production by RCA. The Laserdisk used by Halcyon was an unbadged unit made by Pioneer Corporation.

Communications with CED players were serial. Communications with Laserdisc players were via infrared LED attached via suction cup.

Speech synthesis was produced using a licensed text-to-speech algorithm included as part of the base Halcyon Operating System, including a special English vocabulary which would correctly pronounce hundreds of proper names. The phonetic output of this algorithm was fed into a Votrax chip.

Software
Firmware unique to the game being played existed as a removable ROM cartridge containing 16K memory, including the entire game node layout, vocabulary of the game (both for the speech synthesizer and speech recognizer), inventory data (both for gameplay as well as video still frames depicting items), and certain executable data sections to assist in the processing of game flow.

Save for the words "Yes" and "No," Halcyon required each player to train it to recognize their voice. The words "Yes" and "No" existed as four samples of human voices pre-loaded into memory, two female and two male. Each voice was selected for their unique pitch and timbre properties. These four gave a high probability match for Halcyon to recognize from any given English speaker.

Speech recognition was discontiguous, meaning the player had only a few seconds to speak into a headset when prompted. This headset was equipped with a noise-canceling microphone to help isolate speech from any other sounds. Speech samples would be compared against allowed responses, and a match, along with probability of accuracy, would be sent to the Halcyon main processor.

To acknowledge voice commands, Halcyon would reiterate what it believed it "heard" the player say. This sometimes resulted in incorrect actions taken, especially if the player had a significantly different inflection or spoke something different from the choices expected. Probability ranking could trigger Halcyon to ask the player to repeat their choice when it received a poor match to all expected responses. Mis-recognitions were chiefly the result of a sample of speech given sufficient probability to match one of the anticipated words or phrases.

Halcyon was intended to have a voice much like the Hal 9000, but memory constraints prohibited the use of tailored speech parameters for the Votrax synthesizer that was built into the console. The compromise was to use a licensed text-to-speech algorithm that had several built-in rules for pronouncing English text properly. For speech, the console made that the algorithm did not pronounce acceptably, special spelling was incorporated into the source text of words and phrases to correct for these problems. This would not correct the words (user names, primarily) that were typed into the Halcyon when a player first began playing the game.

A video game would follow a general design of "nodes", which interconnected based on responses and lack of responses from a player. Certain triggers, such as a real-time constraint under which the game would be interrupted if its associated event did not occur, were also part of the game's dynamic.

Scenes existed as two or more scripts: One for the "normal" or first encounter with the scene, one for subsequent visits, and optionally one or two for where certain actions required the scene animation or graphics to deviate, usually where an item has been removed or used.

A scene had to be identical in animation and graphics between its normal and subsequent visit, differing only in the audio track used. For this reason, lip sync was not required to be included in the animation, often resulting in speaking characters having their mouths obscured or speaking with their backs turned.

A scene with an item used or removed would have separate animation and graphics, allowing for 2 additional audio tracks, again without lip sync.

Audio tracks were encoded into the left and right channels of a stereo encoding; therefore, only monaural audio would be played from any given instance of a scene.

Almost all scenes in a game would have some information revealed that would contribute to solving the puzzle of obtaining the final goal of the game. Since Halcyon needed to keep track of first versus subsequent visits, a count of visits (up to a maximum of 15) would be used to trigger its speech synthesized hints and comments. One example from Thayer's Quest would be the direct instruction to take the right door when the wrong door (leading to instant death) was chosen more than once.

To break up the monotony of robotic speech, Halcyon was given prompt and response phrases that had markers that would include interchangeable words and phrases, along with the Player's name which it would include occasionally. "Enter your name on my keyboard" and "Please spell your name" would be two examples of phrases it would use to prompt the player.

Halcyon's game authoring method would easily accommodate playing Dragon's Lair, except for the restraint that speech recognition would take too long to process each move before the time allowed would expire, limiting it to keyboard-only use. This game's inclusion was not considered for this reason as well as license restrictions.

Each player's game record was represented in non-volatile memory as the set of items they had in their inventory, the visit counters of all possible nodes in the game (unvisited nodes having a count of zero), the scene toggle information (item used/taken/etc.), applicable timers (real-time events would suspend when games were saved), and their trained speech sampled data. To resume play, all one had to do was speak their name when asked to do so by Halcyon.

title: Halcyon (console)