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Talk:Rudolf Nureyev

Odd POV
Isn't the following sentence very odd POV:

"Not long after, for disciplinary reasons, he was told he would not be allowed to go abroad again. He was condemned to tours of the Russian provinces."

I'm no expert in Nureyev, but if no one objects I'll remove it Paradiso 08:28, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

In what sense is it POV? Adam 09:59, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

OOPS - Sorry that is the wrong quote, this is the line I mean:

"In retrospect it seems obvious that his personal problems were mainly due to internal conflict over his sexuality."

How do we know its true? Paradiso 11:50, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It was obvious to everyone who knew him, and it is also obvious to anyone who is gay. Adam 13:02, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

To consider this type of judgment about the internal motivations of a historical figure as an obvious conclusion for all gay people and not to anyone else is definitely problematic. If it is the opinion solely of the gay community, then it is POV, but could be stated in the article as such. And if there were in fact people who knew him who claimed that this was what was bothering him, then that should stated in the article, because that would be important and add interesting insights. I don’t know of any. If someone can find a way to support this statement, then lets add the supporting info. Did Nureyev speak about what was bothering him at this time in his life? Paradiso 14:31, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

How could he defectin 1961 at Charles De Gaulle airport when this airport was only open in 1974??

Category:Austrian ballet dancers
Well, it certainly depends on how defining nationality, but since he became an Austrian citizen I thought it was appropriate to add the Category:Austrian ballet dancers. Gugganij 12:49, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

 * He lived in Paris most of the time and only became an Austrian citizen a few years before his death, by which time he was almost finished as a dancer, so I don't think he should be classed as an Austrian dancer. In any case his nationality was either Russian or Tartar. Adam 01:28, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Sounds reasonable. Gugganij 16:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

"Russian born balet dancer" is not appropriate. Rudolf Nureyev was Tatar and regarded himself as Tatar. if the author of the article means Rudolf's place of birth or citizenship (not ethnicity), then Mr. Nureyev was a Soviet born person, as there was no such a country as Russia yet. Robert

I agree this is a complicated question. His mother was Russian, his father was Tatar, he was born in Siberia and raised in Bashkiria. I don't think any nationality can be safely ascribed to him. "Soviet-born" is correct and probably safest. Adam 12:30, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I reckon that an encyclopedia should not make such mistakes and should evade using colloquialisms. Russia appeared only in 1991. Between 1922 – 1991 there was USSR not Russia. The following sentences should be amended accordingly.

1. “Within two years Nureyev was one of Russia's best-known dancers”. – USSR’s 2. “He was condemned to tours of the Russian provinces” – Soviet provinces. He could not go to Turkmen Soviet Republic either. 3. “He did not see Russia again until 1989” - USSR 4. “…and his first visit back to Russia was to see his dying mother …” – USSR

Can you please provide me with the links to support your words “His mother was Ethnic Russian”? To my knowledge both of his parents were Tatars. His mother’s name was Farida which is a very common name among Tatars. Russians do not use Muslim or Turkic names, and Farida is either of the two. Following are the links to some trustworthy websites which directly or indirectly say that Rudolf’s mother was Tatar too. Encyclopedia of World Biography http://www.notablebiographies.com/Ni-Pe/Nureyev-Rudolf.html “He was the youngest of the four children of Hamet and Farida Nureyev, who came from Asiatic Mongol ancestry”.

Article: Capturing Nureyev http://www.antiquesandthearts.com/%5C/a2000.asp?a=CoverStory03-19-2002-11-16-28 “..Born of Tatar parents..”

E-book: “The most famous artists of Russia” http://salebook.lgg.ru/files/rv/361812132904.htm#145 Translation: “Nureyev who made Russian ballet famous was not Russian. His mother Farida was a Kazan Tatar woman… Unlike many artists or scientists of those times Rudolf didn’t keep his origin in secret. Vice versa, he was proud of his ethnicity and he really resembled an impetuous and self-willed descendent of Genghis-Khan as people tended to call him. His ballet-school mates say that on occasions he would emphasise that his ancestors ruled Russians during 300 years”. Robert, Australia

 * »Nureyev was born in a train near Irkutsk, while his ethnic *Russian mother* was travelling across Siberia to Vladivostok« ?????

 * His mother's name is *Färidä*, his father's name is *Xämit*. It's typical Muslim name. It's not russian name! Typical russian names: Natasha, Masha, Dasha, Sasha, Glasha, ...
 * The general point is very correct. However, what's with that ridiculous statement about the Russian names? They actually are Natalia, Maria, Daria, Alexandra, and Clavdia. One could very well call Farida "Farisha". --Humanophage (talk) 12:57, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Rudolf Nureyev Foundation Official Website http://www.nureyev.org/biography/biographie_jeunesse.php Quote: "The family were Tartars, coming of peasant stock in the Soviet republic of Bashkir". Adam, what else do you need? Robert

His mother's name is Farida.

 * Farida Ahliulla kyzy (Ahliullovna) Idrisova (in tatar - Фәридә Әһлиулла кызы Идрисова - first name, patronymic and last name, in the context of the region - purely Tatar/Bashkir), was born in the village of Tatar Tyugulbaevo (a village with a Tatar population), she received her education in the Tatar madrasah in Kazan. With references to archival data, this was published only in the biography of 2007, but it was never a secret. Where did the story about the Rudolf Nureyev's mother is etnic-Russian come from? It's a mystery.Тангичи (talk) 10:53, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Category:Tatars vs. Category:Tatar people
I have taken the liberty of removing Nureyev from the former category; to list him (or anybody) in both is redundant, and as Category:Tatar people is itself a category within Category:Tatars it is the category under which he (and all other Tatars) belong.

Some Wikipedian committed to Tatar affairs might care to move any other Tatars from Category Tatars to Category Tatar people; I have other, not necessarily bigger, fish to fry.
 * I returned the previous category, since the category "Tatars" no longer exists.Тангичи (talk) 11:00, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Homosexuality
Most people seem to have this illusion that Nureyev "leaped to freedom" in order to have so-called "artistic freedom" in the west, when in all actuality if he remained in Russia he would have been sent to prison, etc. for his sexuality, and whether people like this or not it is the truth.

A user named Derek Parker put in the following edit, which is wholly inaccurate -

"The fact that he was by then a known homosexual was not, as has been suggested, relevent; the KGB winked at homosexual artists who were considered valuable to the State."

If Nureyev was valueable to the state then why would the KGB want to send him back to Russia during the Kirov's tour in Paris?

I dont known where on earth he got this idea, but that is simple NOT true. In light of this, I reverted back to an older edit. Mrlopez2681 19:53, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Homosexual men do have political opinions. Furthermore, if he was valuable to the state, that is EXACTLY why the KGB would want to send him back to Russia. He is a valuable asset as a Soviet dancer; as a defector he would be a prominent liability -- irrelevant of sexuality or politics. I also question the accuracy of your statements on Soviet history70.239.95.34 05:39, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

This is all uncited and certainly not factual. If it's factual, cite it. 71.185.192.226 04:10, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I wonder also if it would not be more appropriate to call him bisexual, since he was know to have had sexual relationships with women as well as men (http://www.nysun.com/article/61345). --Minerva9 07:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

No, he was a homosexual, but as per usual wikipedia -lacking prof. editors and being populated by mostly imbecililles- has failed to adress even that. 94.71.140.168 (talk) 22:29, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

He was more gay, then bi, but occasional took female lovers, it is a well known fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.91.180.94 (talk) 09:04, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

Nureyev was bisexual, and despite how being bisexual or gay was technically illegal in the USSR/CCCP, there were many bisexual and gay men who were open or basically out for the time as being bisexual or gay-Tchaikovsky was one-in the arts and ordinary citizens who lived openly as bisexual and gay men and they were not imprisoned, sent to GULAG, or executed.100.34.201.47 (talk) 22:47, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Tchaikovsky - this is the time of the Russian Empire (however, there was also criminal prosecution for manifesting a sexual orientation different from the normative one). There were different periods in the USSR - in the 1920s the minister (people's commissar) could be openly gay (like Chicherin). But in the days of Nuriev, open homosexuality could be the reason for state to puting human to prison. However, I do not sure that this was the reason for the migration - in most Western countries at that time the situation was still similar.Тангичи (talk) 11:08, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Nureyev's choreographies
LA BAYADERE ACTE III - 3 october 1974 - After Petipa MANFRED - 20 november 1979 - Original choreography DON QUICHOTTE - 6 march 1981 - After Petipa RAYMONDA - 5 november 1983 - After Petipa LE LAC DES CYGNES - 20 december 1984 - After Sergueev and Bourmeister ROMEO ET JULIETTE - 19 october 1984 - Original choreography THE TEMPEST - 9 march 1984 - Original choreography BACH SUITE - 16 april 1984 - Avec Francine Lancelot CASSE NOISETTE - 20 december 1985 - After Petipa WASHINGTON SQUARE - 25 june 1985 - Original choreography CENDRILLON - 24 october 1986 - Original choreography LA BELLE AU BOIS DORMANT - 18 march 1989 - After Petipa LA BAYADERE - 8 october 1992 - After Petipa

NPOV
While i can't claim to be any expert or even some one who knows much about this chap and only came to this page after reading a review about the new biography on Rudolf Nureyev by Julie Kavanagh. The review in "The Sunday Times" (UK), paints a totally different picture of what Rudolf was like. As far going on to use the phrase the Beast within the Beauty. I honestly think some of Julie's work needs to be taken into account into as it seems to contradict what has been written about him here, in particular his personality. as an example i read in the wikipedia article he was known to be a generous and loyal friend while the review says "he was shamelessly exploitative, using people as stepping stones and then discarding them" and  "towards inferiors he was violent and foul mouthed, berating waiters, throwing food around...Anti-semitic obscenities were his specility". sounds quite different to what has been written here. and i can't say its a piece of work that should be dismissed as she spent 10 years reaserching it. anyways thats my two cents Philbentley 16:55, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * There can be multiple viewpoints and personality and style variations can vary greatly depending on who is asking, what they are asking and of whom. Benjiboi 14:56, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Tone
The article had the tone of a scandal drahamah-filled fan page with much unfootnoted analysis. I have made a first pass to chop out some of the worst offenses, but it could use someone to clean up after me. Many of the items could probably be returned, if properly sourced. TheRedPenOfDoom (talk) 11:40, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Just recently I was listening to someone on radio criticising wiki biographies, that they frequently sounded like they had been writen by the subjects PR agency. Can't say what was here a year ago, but this seems a little lacking in his personal life and relationships. Sandpiper (talk) 23:23, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * For example, it would seem Robert Tracy, lover and then secretary for 13 years, ought to have a mention. Tracy says Nureyev said that he had slept with three female lovers, two of whom became pregnant. Sandpiper (talk) 00:02, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Pushkin
The mention of Alexander Pushkin may be misleading for some, especially given the wording. I wasn't able to find anything on Nureyev's Pushkin even in ruwiki, the only other two Alexanders listed there are the poet's son and grandson. Bansp (talk) 23:24, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Early life and career at the Kirov
No mention of the guy he was sending letters back and forth to? He even sent the guy some nude photos of himself. He was a fellow ballet dancer, as I recall. And yes, it is relevant, whether you like it or not. --98.232.178.38 (talk) 04:39, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Call for expansion
This article seems to focus on the sensationalist and celebrity aspects of Nureyev's life, somewhat at the expense of his dance style and innovation. It is mentioned that he pioneered, or at least expanded, the integration of modern dance into the classical ballet oeuvre, but there is no associated exposition to corroborate or clarify this. I am not an expert on Nureyev, but I am interested in the subject--it would be appreciated if someone with ballet expertise expanded the section on his professional dance career and style, for which he is arguably most reknowned.

Alanrobts (talk) 13:46, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Sexuality
Hello and please forgive me I'm sure I'm doing a bunch of things wrong. It took me forever to find the talk page. I'm sorry I didn't post here before editing. A person changed Nureyev's sexuality from homosexual to bisexual and cited that it's because he had relationships with women in his youth. It is widely accepted that Nureyev is gay. I feel like there is constantly an attempt to erase homosexual people, and I've seen it on wikipedia often enough and finally had enough at this one. My opinion is that if neutrality is the goal, leave a definitive statement about his sexuality off his page. I didn't edit it to state that he was gay (although he was), I edited it to take out an untrue and not backed up statement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fixingstupidlies (talk • contribs) 20:17, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, the claim he's bisexual is/was followed immediately by a citation for that statement (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/10/08/wild-thing-2). Whether it's necessarily correct or not, I don't know, but it is a claim that's backed by a citation of what's generally considered a reliable source. (I will grant, though, that said source doesn't really offer a substantial backing of that assertion.) To quote WP:Verifiability, "Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it." I'm not sure the claim, for that reason, should be removed/disputed out of hand, but if other (also reliable) sources make the contrary assertion that Nureyev was strictly homosexual, those can be included as well. I think it's probably a reasonable compromise to just say that opinions differ, and provide sources thereof. - Vianello (Talk) 05:06, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Does labelling Nureyev as homosexual or bisexual really matter? I mean, if he said it himself that would be a different thing but as far as I know I don't think he did (correct me?). Straight people don't normally label themselves as heterosexual, and when they do that's because there's a LGBTQ person in the room, so labelling a person, especially a famous one, as gay or bi or whatever seems to just sensationalize them; their sexuality isn't valued for being a part of their unique humanity, instead it's just an attention-grabber because basically all they are is their sexuality. It's just that in mainstream tv shows a person labelled as gay or having homosexual characteristics is often the guy who provides comic relief; on TV a person who's gay automatically gets a laugh from the audience just for being gay but a show would never make fun of heterosexuality (correct me?). Being gay is seen as different and is therefore easily sensationalized. Maybe instead of saying gay "attracted to men" or "likes guys" could be said instead. Being gay just seems too general and most of the time has associations like "feminine" and stuff with it; general labels don't work on individuals.

Someone mentioned that calling gay people bi is erasing homosexual identity but I think that as a general, collective form of identification it does seem to nullify its aims; heterosexual identity is almost never talked about due to how ingrained it is, I mean when's the last time anyone ever heard of a straight person being ashamed of his sexuality or having to come out? Normalizing homosexuality might mean just not making as big a deal of it. Even Pride marches and stuff like that seem to celebrate homosexuality itself rather than the struggle of homosexuals; straight people rarely celebrate being straight.

TL;DR calling a person gay is too general a term for individuals. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.105.145.231 (talk) 04:32, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Robert Tracy
I'm sorry, there is a new information about Mr. Robert Tracy, that Nureyev and he met in 1973, actually they met in 1978. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.91.180.94 (talk) 09:07, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

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The 2019 film The White Crow directed by Ralph Fiennes
the long paragraph on the film, along with some editorial comment, is inappropriate. This could be put in a new article on the film itself. The film is based on an earlier documentary and the Julie Kavanagh book. TGcoa (talk) 23:28, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Rudolf Nureyev


text:
Adventures of Lolo 2

Adventures of Lolo 2 is a puzzle video game released in 1990 by HAL Laboratory for the Nintendo Entertainment System. It is the seventh installment of the Japanese Eggerland video game series. It was the fourth game released in European countries and the second one released in the United States and Canada, but was never released in Japan.

Like its American predecessor, it is a collection of puzzles from Eggerland: Meikyū no Fukkatsu and Eggerland: Sōzō he no Tabidachi, plus some puzzles from the Japanese Adventures of Lolo. The American game also re-used cut-scenes and graphics from the Japanese one.

The Japan-exclusive Adventures of Lolo,Adobenchāzu obu Roro (アドベンチャーズ オブ ロロ) on the other hand, is a different game, consisting entirely of original puzzles. It was released for the Famicom and is the sixth installment in the Eggerland series.

The Japanese Adventures of Lolo was released on the Wii's Virtual Console in Japan on June 5, 2007. It was later released in Japan on the 3DS Virtual Console on April 9, 2014, on the Wii U's Virtual Console on September 3 the same year and via Nintendo Switch Online on December 12, 2018.

The American Adventures of Lolo 2 was released on the Wii's Virtual Console in 2008 for North America on January 21, and in PAL regions on February 1.

Gameplay
Gameplay is virtually identical to the previous Adventures of Lolo (US), since both are compilations of puzzles from Eggerland: Meikyū no Fukkatsu and Eggerland: Sōzō he no Tabidachi. Some of the monster graphics were drawn differently, mainly Gol, Rocky, Skull, Medusa, and Don Medusa. Other differences include new puzzles and greater difficulty.

The game features a total of 50 different puzzle rooms; the player faces King Egger at the end. Also featured are four hidden Pro puzzle rooms, which are available for players who want to try very challenging rooms.

The Japan-only Adventures of Lolo has mostly different and more difficult levels compared to the North American and European collection.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Adventures of Lolo 2


title: File:BoxArtLolo1(US).jpg


text: Category:People from Rhode Island

title: Category:People from Rhode Island


text: Category:Government of Rhode Island

title: Category:Government of Rhode Island


text: Category:Mass media in Rhode Island

title: Category:Mass media in Rhode Island


text:
Talk:Multi-level marketing/Archive 3

Criticism section?
I wonder if Criticism is an accurate title for the section as it doesn't contain criticism so much as various lawsuits. Especially when MLM has often been accused (this is my experience) of being a scam and having high drop out rates and low percentages of people turning profits. There are other criticisms I have heard too such as emphasis on recruiting far more than selling in many companies etc. and as mentioned here on the discussion page, cultish tendancies. Since there are so many criticisms of MLM, it is odd to see a criticism section that only contains a couple of lawsuits. Slumdogdiggity (talk) 03:43, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

 * I don't understand this statement. Of the some 18 references in the Criticism section only five are expressly related to lawsuits while the rest come from journals or well respected papers.  If you look at the paragraphs nearly ever point above is brought up.

 * The first two paragraphs (FTC) address "exaggerated income claims" and "greater incentives for recruitment than product sales"

 * Third paragraph quotes from three peer reviewed journals and touches on "cults", "pyramid schemes" "organizations rife with misleading, deceptive, and unethical behavior", and "the exploitation of personal relationships for financial gain" as well as "MLM is completely devoid of any scientific foundations", and "Multi-level marketing companies (MLMs) have become an accepted and legally sanctioned form of pyramid scheme in the United States."

 * The fourth and later paragraphs all address the failure rates for MLM.

 * So other than the drop out rate what is not covered in all that?--BruceGrubb (talk) 09:14, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Distinguish from network marketing?
Perhaps there is a difference, but is there an example of a company using network marketing which does not use multi-level marketing. I think if you can actually find something to say about network marketing which is not about multi-level marketing, you should start there before making edits to this article.

It should also be noted that you're damaging the category tags, even if your edit was otherwise correct (which I don't think it is.) — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 22:10, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The definition I wrote is not incorrect. And it is more correct than the version you keep reverting back to. Please see the FTC documents referenced in the article itself. Multi-level marketing is not multi-level marketing without its unique compensation structure. In addition a company can utilize a network marketing strategy (i.e. be a network marketing company) and not be a multi-level marketing company. (And yes, I could provide examples of such companies. Is it really that hard to believe that a company could exist and rely on word of mouth marketing through the personal networks of its distributors and compensate them only for the sales they make and NOT from the sales of people they recruit?) That is the difference.

 * In addition to this and in reference to your revert of the article content I created for network marketing, I hardly consider two "yes's" (one of which claims pyramid schemes are the same as MLM) with nearly zero discussion a "consensus." For an actual discussion I turn your attention to this very talk page (Talk:Multi-level_marketing). (discussion was archived here Enric Naval (talk) 18:47, 9 January 2010 (UTC) )

 * Just as there is a difference between an illegal pyramid scheme and a multi-level marketing structure, there is a difference between multi-level marketing and network marketing. MLMs are generally legal as long as individuals are not compensated for enrolling others in the structure. This is why they are differentiated from illegal pyramid schemes. A network marketing company is only a multi-level marketing company if marketers are compensated for the sales of other marketers they recruit...thus creating uplines and downlines and multiple levels of marketers. If independent distributors (i.e. marketers) are compensated on their own sales efforts and/or cannot be compensated by sales of a continuous downline of other marketers, the company is not multi-level. This does not mean it cannot be using a network marketing strategy.

 * I am surprised to see an administrator continue to revert edits that have been made in good faith and that improve the encyclopedia instead of opening a dialogue and/or making his own edits. Even if there were acts of vandalism a revert should not be performed if other useful edits were made. It is not difficult to simply make specific changes without affecting the entire article. In this particular case there was not even vandalism...there is simply a disagreement of wording. Not only is that alone not enough to warrant multiple reverts, there is simply no reason to remove the internal links and citation references I included with my change.

 * Again, there has been much more discussion on this topic than the two "yes's" to the merge proposal you referenced, and from that discussion a separate article was requested. In addition, even if this were not the case, there is a distinct difference between the terms and they warrant their own articles. I will recreate the content for Network marketing and include a proposed merge tag. I hope you will continue this discussion but also respect the edits, which do improve the encyclopedia. --JohnDoe0007 (talk) 01:40, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

 * Perhaps it MLM should be distinguished from network marketing. Fixing the latter article to include something not about MLM, which has not yet been done, is the first step.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 19:58, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the problem is there's no real consensus on this in the "real world". There's sources that say they're the same, others that say they're different. There's a similar debate going on in the swedish wikipedia.I it's been common usage amongst some to call MLM "pyramid selling" (in swedish of course). Indeed I believe in the UK that the original law that made MLM legal actually referred to it as "pyramid selling". The problem is that other countries had MLM and "Pyramid Selling" meaning different things, with the later illegal (basically a pyramid scam with a bogus product). So folk who've called MLM "pyramid selling" (quite a few wikieditors there!) are determined that the MLM related article should say they're pyramid selling companies. The problem is, various EU commission documents and directives say "pyramid selling" is illegal throughout the EU. This means the Wikipedia articles are effectively calling the companies illegal. To confuse it, the EU docs never really seem to define what it is.
 * Confusing it even further is when you have companies like Melaleuca, which clearly uses a multi-level compensation plan, going out of there way to say they don't do MLM. I think what they're trying to do is distance themselves from the many many clear pyramid scams that call themselves MLMs in order to try and look legitimate. Indeed, I suspect it may be possible that the majority of companies that call themselves MLM are actually illegal pyramids. I think this utter confusion even spreads to what would otherwise be considered reliable sources.
 * Which all in all means this article is going to be a pain in the a** to get even close to consensus.
 * --Insider201283 (talk) 20:47, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Did anyone actually read the FTC sources. They distinguish MLM from pyramid schemes (and, to some extent, Ponzi schemes), but do not mention network marketing at all.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 07:23, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I read them and found them useless in this regard and so found FIVE scholarly papers (Pratt, Michael G.; Rosa, José Antonio (2003), Vander Nat, Peter J.; Keep, William W. (2002), Merrilees, Bill; Miller, Dale (1999), Cahn, Peter S. (2006)) across three different fields (including business) saying that network marketing is just another name for MLM. That should slam the door on those who keep claiming they are different things.--BruceGrubb (talk) 14:28, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It's been several months and Network marketing still doesn't have any proper reference for the distintion from MLM. The only independent sources are those of the FTC, and both of them say that MLM and network marketing are different names for the same thing. I'm going to redirect it here. --Enric Naval (talk) 14:49, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I added the names of "direct selling" and "referral marketing". --Enric Naval (talk) 18:47, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

More potential references
Looking around for more information on MLM I found some interesting references connecting it to "pyramid selling" or saying that nearly all MLM opportunities are scams:
 * Purchasing scams and how to avoid them by Gower Publishing Company Trevor Kitching pg 4
 * The guide to franchising (2004) by Martin Mendelsohn Cengage Learning Business Press pg 36
 * SCAMS - and how to protect yourself from them (2008) by Timi Ogunjobi Tee Publishing pg 13-19
 * Expert Fraud Investigation: A Step-by-Step Guide By Tracy L. Coenen Wiley pg 168 :"Multi-level marketing companies (MLMs) have become an accepted and legally sanctioned form of pyramid scheme in the United States."

This should put a few more nails into this as now even Wiley is saying that MLMs are effectively bogus.--BruceGrubb (talk) 00:27, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

 * The Financial & Tax Fraud Education Associates (cited in Forbes Best of the web 2000) has a long article on Multi-Level Marketing (MLM) going over the problems MLMs have and pointing out that thanks to the internet what viability they had has disappeared.--BruceGrubb (talk) 15:12, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Better sources regarding criteria needed
I removed the reference to Babener because the man contradicts himself in his 1997 FTC v. JewelWay - New Concerns For Industry: The Fifty Percent PLUS Rule and FTC v. Futurenet which portray lower amounts from the 70% in the Amway case. The FTC own web site doesn't seem to give any percentage just general guidelines.

On the Unfair Commercial Practices Directive it is unclear to someone not versed in legal doctrine if personal consumption is allowed. For example the UK version clearly states "“consumer” means any individual who in relation to a commercial practice is acting for purposes which are outside his business" which to a non legal expert would mean that sale to a "distributor" who does not sale it does not count as a consumer.

I also removed the direct quote by Peter Vander Nat because it lacked two critical things need to find it and double check: title and author of the article in the WSJ. When those can be provided it can be put back in.--BruceGrubb (talk) 06:12, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Many sources are not WP:RS
This article is unbalanced and and relies greatly on sources that are not WP:RS

 * Terry Sandbek, Ph.D. "Brain Typing: The Pseudoscience of Cold Reading" Journal of the American Board of Sport Psychology

This is not an authentic academic journal, as is obvious from a review of the website. Articles are published only on the website, with the "inaugural issue" in 2007, and the last in 2008. As best I can tell no article has ever been cited in a peer-review published journal.

 * Taylor, Jon M. (2002). "Comparing Recruiting MLM’s with No-product Pyramid Schemes, and with Gambling". Consumers Awareness Institute. Retrieved 2009-06-25.

Self published article on a website

 * FitzPatrick, Robert L. (August 4, 2002). "The 10 Big Lies of Multi-Level Marketing". Consumers Awareness Institute. Retrieved 2009-06-25.

Self published article on a website

 * "What's Wrong With Multi-Level Marketing?". Vandruff.com. Retrieved 2009-06-29.

Self published article on a website

 * "Why the FTC Lets MLM Run Wild in America". pyramid scheme alert. August 13, 2008. Retrieved 2009-06-04.

Self published article on a website

 * Taylor, Jon M. (2004). "Top Ten Things I Learned from Ten Years' Research on Network Marketing or MLM". Consumers Awareness Institute. Retrieved 2009-06-25

Self published article on a website

 * "Unilevel Compensation Plan". The Compensation Plan. network-marketing-business-school.com. Retrieved 2009-08-28.

Self published article on a website

 * "Spencer Reese of Law Firm Grimes & Reese".

Self published article on a website --Insider201283 (talk) 12:48, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

 * Please note that Arthur Rubin, TheEditor22, and myself all agreed that Fitzpatrick and Taylor were reliable sources with TheEditor22 and I agreeing on this point on the Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_1. Also Insider201283 has had previous COI problems regarding particular MLMs even going as far as saying User_talk:Insider201283/Archive_2 and User_talk:Insider201283/Archive_3.  I should mention that youtube has a set of very pro Amway and Quixtar videos under this exact same name.

Also contrary to what Insider201283 thinks a badly designed web site does not translate into unscholarly. The actual Journal of the American Board of Sport Psychology site clearly states: "The Journal of the American Board of Sport Psychology is a peer reviewed journal devoted to disseminating scientific and popular research-based articles in an efficient and timely manner. The Journal also publishes technical reports, editorials, opinions, special features, and letters to the editors, as well as classified and other advertising. Peer-reviewed articles are posted in PDF format, requiring that you have ADOBE Reader. If not you can download it for free at www.adobe.com."

Worse for Insider201283 a link to the American Board of Sport Psych. is provided by [Adams State College http://www.adams.edu/academics/sportpsych/] who has the following accreditations: North Central Association of Colleges and Schools (NCA-HLC) Accreditation, Commission on Collegiate Nursing Education (CCNE); Council for Accreditation of Counseling and Related Educational Programs (CACREP); and National Association of Schools of Music (NASM), Commission on Accreditation.

 * Carlstedt PhD, Roland A. (Editor) (2009) Handbook of Integrative Clinical Psychology, Psychiatry, and Behavioral Medicine: Perspectives, Practices, and Research Springer Publishing Company ("Springer Publishing Company is extremely proud of our history -- publishing academic and professional works for more than 50 years.") on page 3 clearly states that Carlstedt has published articles in The Journal of the American Board of Sport Psychology and Biofeedback, Cortex, Brain and Cognition.

 * So an accredited college recommends it and a publisher who had been publishing academic and professional works for more than 50 years uses it as why an author of its Handbook of Integrative Clinical Psychology, Psychiatry, and Behavioral Medicine: Perspectives, Practices, and Research is trustworthy. Oh just in case Insider201283 regales us with some other nonsense Springer Publishing Company also puts out A Guide to the Standard EMDR Protocols for Clinicians, Supervisors, and Consultants, Chemistry and Physics for Nurse Anesthesia: A Student Centered Approach, Handbook of Forensic Neuropsychology, Second Edition, and EMDR and the Art of Psychotherapy With Children: Treatment Manual and Text'' just to mention a few.

 * Talk about major egg on the face. Sheesh  Insider201283 do you even know how to do actual research before posting this nonsense?!?--BruceGrubb (talk) 23:02, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The link you gave on RS/N does NOT support your claim that Arthur Rubin agreed with you. Arthur Rubin did not even contribute to the discussion. TheEditor22 did, however he was a partisan in the dispute - and it's worth noting he was banned for his editorial behaviour on WP. By contrast, independent editors User:Jezhotwells and User:Jakew on that thread, and User:KillerChihuahua on this RS/N discussion all said no. I'm more than willing to put each article up on RS/N for further comment if you wish. Oh, and COI guidelines have changed since that very old discussion you linked to. "outing" someone by connecting their WP account with a site elsewhere, as you just did with Youtube, is also a bannable WP offence. Don't do it. --Insider201283 (talk) 23:24, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I've listed the first article (Sandbek) on RS/N - Reliable_sources/Noticeboard--Insider201283 (talk) 23:40, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Pointing out possible COI is not outing expecially as you have flagged once beofre by an administrator and two other editors for this behavior in the past.--BruceGrubb (talk) 23:54, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
 * No, you pointed out my youtube account. The other issues were addressed several YEARS ago, including a trip through WP dispute resolution processes - where, incidentally, an arbitrator said I really didn't have the COI I thought as a naive new editor. In any case, little more than ad hominems on your part, which says a lot about the strength of your argument. --Insider201283 (talk) 00:00, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I pointed out a youtube account with the same name I never said is was your account. I have finally tired of your antics here and have gone to an administrator to sort this mess out.--BruceGrubb (talk) 00:10, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Sort what mess out? I posted a list of my concerns on the talk page. You disputed them, we're now looking at them on RS/N. This is pretty normal procedure Bruce. --Insider201283 (talk) 00:12, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Gaming the system for starters. The only major dealing I have have with MLM off of Wikipedia is with some guy named Icerat over in the MLM thread of Randi's website and he claimed to be you.  Note at no time did I accept Icerat's claim he was you so unless you are Icerat WP:OUTING does not apply.  Furthermore, Icerat shows clear WP:COI towards reliable sources.  When two Wiley and one Sage Publishing were presented he stated that since they called MLM legal pyramid schemes "Which just goes to show they're not reliable sources." and more to the point Coenen, Tracy (2009) is the latest of the Wiley publications.--BruceGrubb (talk) 01:23, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Bruce, I provided you with MANY links from government authorities around the world stating "pyramid schemes are illegal". As such stating something is "a legal pyramid scheme" is a clear oxymoron and clear evidence the author is NOT a reliable source on the topic. If someone states something, and they're provably wrong with a multitude of indisputable authoritive sources, then they clearly are not reliable. I have every good faith intention of getting this article into an encyclopedic form, including addressing controversies over the topic. Your insistence on using a variety of non WP:RS sources to push your POV is a major roadblock towards that goal. There are a multitude of clearly WP:RS sources available, let's use them. You'll note in the list above I've included pro-MLM sites in the list of sources I think should not be used. --Insider201283 (talk) 01:40, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Two Wiley publications and a sage publication are not RS because they don't agree with your clear COI nonsense?!? First you say Wiley is reliable regardless of who the author is and what he says and now you are saying the exact OPPOSITE?!?  GIVE ME A FREAKING BREAK!--BruceGrubb (talk) 02:57, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Bruce, I never said any such thing. Though I must say that your position that my view, which is the same as governments around the world, is "nonsense" says quite a lot about your POV on this.--Insider201283 (talk) 10:57, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
 * You implied as much with your comments regarding Carroll (2003) and Coenen (2009) not being usable despite the fact they are supported by Salinger (2005) and yet also saying (as shown by the archive) that Rubino is usable...simply because he was published by Wiley. Well newsflash so are Carroll (2003) and Coenen (2009) and unlike Rubino they are supported by another WP:RS published by Sage.  I will say that the material regarding the name "pyramid selling" is a mess as there are RS as recent as 2007 that call MLM this while equally RS expressly state that "pyramid selling" is illegal and MLMs are different.--BruceGrubb (talk) 12:04, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Whether something is usable or not depends a lot on the context, as is noted in much discussion on RS/N about Carroll's book. I don't think I've ever made an argument about Rubino's book, I haven't read it. The point is that we HAVE an ultimate authority about whether something is legal or illegal, and that's governments. They have CLEARLY stated that "pyramid schemes" are illegal. There should be no dispute about that. "legal pyramid scheme" is thus an oxymoron, it's simply not something that can exist. Anyone saying it can (and this includes you apparently) has clearly not researched the law in the area and thus is clearly not a good source to discuss the legality or otherwise of something. Now with regard "pyramid selling" that's a different term altogether and has a whole list of other issues. In some jurisdictions "pyramid selling" has been something "legal", in others it's been considered synonymous with "pyramid scheme" and thus illegal. In some places it's changed over time. For example in some European countries "pyramid selling" was a common term to describe legal MLM operations, however EU law now equates pyramid selling and pyramid schemes, and they are illegal. So the term is now incorrect. A discussion on confusion over the terms is certainly something I think should be in the article, I'm just not sure there is an RS actually discussing it so it may fall under OR.--Insider201283 (talk) 13:08, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Here we get your typical weasel words of "I don't think" or "I don't believe" when some point you raised before that was totally shredded in the past is brought back up. You did this with Cruz and got I called you on the carpet for it and am doing the same with Rubino.

 * The Talk:Multi-level_marketing/Archive_2 is interesting as you expressly states "The books I've listed are only from recognized publishing companies and not self-published." and you provided that total ridiculous list that included Kiyosaki's self published book "The Business School for People Who Like Helping People" a man known for claiming his cat as his business partner as an unethical (and according to John T Reed illegal) way to get out of contracts. You replied directly to my comments of "As my University of Chicago Press example shows even the most scholarly publishing house can go into vanity book land so going just on the merit of the publish house may not be enough. The Rubino book does have a few problems--he doesn't have a degree in the relevant field and he appears to be the sole editor. In "Great Formula: For Creating Maximum Profit with Minimal Effort" by Mark Joyner Page 194, Rubino talks about the future release of The Ultimate Guide to Network Marketing in context with the expansion of his MLM formula. COI problems galore." on July 8, 2009.

 * On the issue of RS talking about "pyramid selling" the problem here is you have the legal definition and the common definition. When the common definition is used even companies in the EU (like [ACN]) say "A pyramid selling scheme is any business where the primary form of compensation is derived from the fees that others pay to join the business, rather than from the sale of products or services to end consumers." you know there are going to be problems.  The most problematic thing is the very often use of the word scheme in much of the literature rather than the world model.  The term "scheme" automatically puts things into a negative light and yet even supportive sources like Koehn (2001) use the word when talking about MLMsBruceGrubb (talk) 12:19, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Bruce, I already pointed out common usage of "pyramid selling" in europe and that the article should address this. That's not the same as "pyramid scheme", which has had clear definitions for decades. As for Rubino, you're claiming I'm stating Rubino is usable and then you support your claim by quoting places where I said it's "problematic"???!?!?!? How exactly do you justify that? With regards Kiyosaki, as I've said before I think it's probably NOT a good source to use. I'd note though that it is actually NOT self-published, published by Tech Press. A discussion over on WP:SPS has also made clearly that even something like CashFlow Technologies, which originally published the book, is not considered "self-published" either for Wikipedia purposes. Nevertheless it's relatively low standard on the quality scale as far as I'm concerned, with no sources of it's own, and should be avoided except perhaps to indicate his opinion of the industry. As for the cat thing, I had to look it up and it was, in Kiyosaki's own words in the very next sentence, an absurd illustation - I make this absurd statement to illustrate how absurdly easy and simple the game is.
 * So so far, your argument to use clearly poor anti-MLM sources seems to be based on the argument that I'm biased and am trying to also exclude poor pro-MLM sources. Yeah, that makes sense! --Insider201283 (talk) 16:04, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

(remove indent)Sorry Insider but the edition you linked to was by Cashflow Technologies Inc (a publisher owned by Kiyosaki and who he is the president of so yes it is self-published despite your claims to the contrary. Furthermore, there is nothing even on TechPress own webpage that shows they would qualify as a reliable publisher.  You have claimed a peer reviewed (Crez) wasn't, publishers that were reliable when they were pro-MLM magically become unreliable when they have anti-MLM statements, article by such papers as The Times, and the list goes on.--BruceGrubb (talk) 08:52, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Bruce, seriously, can you take a breath and read what I write? I said the TechPress edition is not self-published - I didn't say the book was a reliable source - in fact I said in my opinion it is NOT a source we should be using. Furthermore, as you've already pointed out ad nauseum, and which I always agree with you, just because something is by a legitimate publisher doesn't make it automatically a reliable source for every issue it addresses, other factors need to be considered. --Insider201283 (talk) 10:18, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * pyramidschemealert.org and mlm-thetruth.com were both listed on RS/N last year with regards this article and both were rejected as reliable sources . I'm removing the claims supported by them. --Insider201283 (talk) 10:44, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I've put up the False Profits book on WP:RS/N for comments --Insider201283 (talk) 11:04, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Bruce - I assume (Carter, 1999) refers to Ruth Carter's self-published book? Do you have the Hopfl & Maddrell, 1996 reference? I cannot find it. --Insider201283 (talk) 18:20, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The statement is exact quote from a peer-reviewed journal (Carl, Walter J. (2004) "The Interactional Business of Doing Business: Managing Legitimacy and Co-constructing Entrepreneurial Identities in E-Commerce Multilevel Marketing Discourse" Western Journal of Communication, Vol. 68) so it doesn't matter what (Carter, 1999) is in reference to.
 * I should mention the exact same line in unreferenced form appears in Phillip G. Clampitt's Communicating for managerial effectiveness 3rd edition (2004) Sage Publications on pg 667. I choose the Carl (2004) one because it is in a peer reviewed journal (Western Journal of Communication) and and unlike Clampitt Carl tells you where the ideas in the statement come from.--BruceGrubb (talk) 05:09, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Bruce, this seems to me a flagrant attempt to get around the spirit of Wikipedia policies and guidelines. I've posted it on RS/N for comment --Insider201283 (talk) 13:28, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

(remove indent) Insider201283, you are straw grasping again. This is a direct quote from a peer reviewed journal ([see http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst;jsessionid=LL1MnRtmmx2ppdCZ2276JGfxKBQl9Gy1yt139NmNvGzhMgC23Qdq!-1659539997!-1970812899?docId=5002106110] for a partial extract) and therefore not a "flagrant attempt to get around the spirit of Wikipedia policies" especially as the Carl quote is clearly the better one (providing direct inline reverences). Besides it has been you who have been called on the carpet several times for overt pro-MLM pushing and possible COI issues as can be seen by your talk page archives.--BruceGrubb (talk) 06:58, 27 February 2010 (UTC) Also David Underdown sided with me on the main issue on the "Does reference of self published websites in scholarly or peer reviewed sources make those sources reliable?" section right above and this show a clear attempt at WP:GAME by creating your own sub threads five hours after I created mine. Furthermore user:Arthur Rubin and user:TheEditor22 (who based on User talk:TheEditor22 made some bad choises in keeping to the spirit) agreed with my main point.--BruceGrubb (talk) 07:42, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Bruce, I have no idea what you're talking about "gaming" with creating sub threads etc. What thread are you talking about? The fact you continue to cite someone as "support" who got banned from WP for bad faith editing is pretty funny though! --Insider201283 (talk) 12:45, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Order of sections??
I'm no fan of MLM groups, since I think many of their more naive members do end up becoming somewhat brainwashed (even if that's not intended by the higher-ups), but that said--what in the world is the criticism doing first? You can't have a criticism of something you haven't even described yet. I recommend moving the criticism section to the end and adding a short paragraph in the introduction about the controversy. I've worked on several 'controversial' articles, and i've never seen one that starts with the controversy. 71.224.206.164 (talk) 02:49, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * yes, definitely needs reordering. There's been a large amount of editing done recently by an editor pushing a particular POV. The positioning of the section is just part of that. I'm presently putting many of his sources through RS/N so there's no dispute they're unacceptable, a deal of his text has already been removed.--Insider201283 (talk) 11:23, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * While we are at it do we really need a Compensation plan section? It already is looking somewhat WP:coatrackish and doesn't really add to the article.  Also if you compare the graph of a Binary plan to that of an "Eight-Ball" Pyramid_scheme and you see other problems and the Binary plan article doesn't do a good job of explaining the system.--BruceGrubb (talk) 04:51, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Something about different styles of MLM is important, but the current compensation plan section definitely needs rewriting sourcing. I've no idea why you think WP:coatrack applies since the idea of a multilevel compensation plan is what differentiates MLM from other sales compensation plans. Though thanks for the coatrack reference, I hadn't seen it before and, with respect, it describes well much of your approach to editing this and related articles. --Insider201283 (talk) 13:16, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed that the Criticism section should not be first for the reason stated, "You can't have a criticism of something you haven't described yet.". I found it odd (and biased) seeing it placed at the top when I first read the article. Leave it, but it should be moved nearer the bottom. Leave the Compensation section also. prhartcom (talk) 22:22, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Incomes
''Various other reports regarding profits by MLM members have been stated by
 * The Times: "The Government investigation claims to have revealed that just 10 per cent of Amway’s agents in Britain make any profit, with less than one in ten selling a single item of the group’s products."
 * Scheibeler, a high level "Emerald" Amway member: "UK Justice Norrisfound in 2008 that out of an IBO (Independent Business Owners) population of 33,000, 'only about 90 made sufficient incomes to cover the costs of actively building their business.' That's a 99.7 percent loss rate for investors."
 * Newsweek: based on one MLM company's own 2007 income disclosure statement "fewer than 1 percent qualified for commissions and of those, only 10 percent made more than $100 a week."
 * Business Students Focus on Ethics: "In the USA, the average annual income from MLM for 90% MLM members is no more than US$5,000, which is far from being a sufficient means of making a living (San Lian Life Weekly 1998)"
 * USAToday: "While earning potential varies by company and sales ability, DSA says the median annual income for those in direct sales is $2,400." ''

I've moved this here to talk because it's not "criticism" and putting it in criticism is not neutral. Given context (eg amount of hours effort put in etc) they may be considered very positively. I think (but am not sure to be honest) that it's fine to have them in the article, but it may be original research as it requires defining which companies are MLM and collating the data. What is definitely needed is participation stats, dsa.org has some on hours worked etc. I'm not sure if any article on any other industry includes statistics on average wages, particularly from one country though???? --Insider201283 (talk) 17:45, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

 * It's not criticism? Come on, Insider201283 this is smacking of desperation to keep bad things about specific MLMs or MLMs in general out of this article.--BruceGrubb (talk) 17:13, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

 * a) This is not OR since all the sources are talking either about MLM in general or about specific MLM companies. (I hope you don't want to argue that Amway, Quixtar or MonaVie are not MLM companies)

 * b) This should be rewritten, placing first the statement about MLM in general, and then the examples of specific companies.

 * c) Just make a new section called "Income".

 * --Enric Naval (talk) 18:26, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

 * I agree that Insider201283 makes points; i.e. the incomes could be in line with the amount of effort put forward, therefore these incomes are useful but not necessarily criticism of MLM. We should present the data and let the reader decide if this is a good thing or a bad thing. If an editor has a bias going into this situation that "MLMs are bad and this proves it", such an editor should use caution to try to avoid straying from a neautral point of view.

 * I agree that Enric Naval also makes valid points; i.e. this may not be OR. The new section could be created called Income and just present the sourced data, allowing it to speak in general terms about MLMs. In the cases where the data speaks of a specific MLM I recommend keeping my earlier edit which modified the sentence to be more general—the reader may then follow the footnote and learn which specific MLM company(ies) are involved in the data if they so desired. prhartcom (talk) 19:28, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

 * (I just noticed I smoothed over one MLM to make it more general but neglected to do the same for two others; this would have to be done.) prhartcom (talk) 19:46, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Bruce, I explicitly said I think this info SHOULD be in the article - how is that "smacking of desperation to keep it out" exactly? To be honest I'm starting to get used to you putting words in my mouth. Anyway, it deserves a section as an inherent part of the MLM strategy is the income opportunity, but as already mentioned it also needs context. It's not inherently "criticism" at all - take AMway's average income data, which includes people who simply registered as to obtain discount pricing and happened to buy enough to get a further discount. Or someone who just joined and merely asked someone, once, if they wanted to buy something - and the said "no". They're in the average calculations. $2400 bucks a year is pretty good for one question! On the other hand, a guy who has been developing a business for 30 years and is making $10 million a year is also in the data. Context matters. Primary sources are fine for straight data, so we can use corporate income disclosure statements. They all use different methods of calculating though, which makes it even more confusing.--Insider201283 (talk) 20:07, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

 * But the problem is that $2400 net or gross? The two are very different.  Even the DSA's own comment to the FTC does not mention the word gross with regards to income once making it hard for a layman to evaluate what it is talking about.  The DSA's web site on direct sells in general is again hard to really determine what the numbers are telling you.

 * Also if ...For Dummies qualify as WP:RS as you implied earlier (because they are published by Wiley) then the 2009 Home-Based Business for Dummies by Paul Edwards, Sarah Edwards, Peter Economy with its statement that in 2006 the typical Quinxtar/Amway distributor made $115 a month before expenses (ie gross) is the better source. Also Edwards points out that some 20 percent of direct sales (part of the the number the "$2400" number USAToday gave) are not in multi level marketing (pg 39) and they make some $6 billion with those in multilevel marketing making $24 billion.  This shows the problem with having only part of the data with no way to to connect the numbers together.
 * I should mention that direct sales is not simply asking one question (getting a job is the one form of direct sales everyone does. Did you simply say 'will you hire me'?  No so why should it be any different with any other product?)  Also according to Edwards few MLMs even give distributor statements and one of the reason Amway/Quinxtar does is due to a settlement with the government (Sadly Edwards is not clear as to how that settlement came about).--BruceGrubb (talk) 08:07, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * (1)I've made no proposals to used the "Dummies Guide" as a source for anything in the article. All I've done is list it in a list of potential sources. Sources have to be evaluated on more than just the publisher. (2) The $2400 was the average from the DSA. It's a gross income. I did find a source for that, but also confirmed it by emailing them and asking. (3)Does the Edwards reference have a source for their claim re direct sales? It's contrary to official industry statistics.(4) AFAIK most DSA member companies have earnings disclosure statements. A quick google found some form of income disclosure for Avon, Amway, Jafra, Mary Kay, Herbalife, Primerica, Tupperware, NuSkin, MonaVie, Melaleuca, Oriflame. That's 11 of the top 13 MLM companies. The 2 missing probably have them too.
 * Again, your memory fails as Talk:Multi-level_marketing/Archive_2 shows otherwise. Along with Ziglar we also had self publisher drivel like Kiyosaki and Poe and prefacing this list of good, maybes, and horrid was the clear statement "The books I've listed are only from recognized publishing companies and not self-published. As such they are considered good sources under Wikipedia guidelines WP:RS and WP:V."  Well The Business School for People Who Like Helping People which was one of the books you listed was neither of these.--BruceGrubb (talk) 02:24, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Again, your ability to read fails you. In Talk:Multi-level_marketing/Archive_2 I provided a list of sources for discussion. As I've already pointed out to you, books published by, for example, Cashflow are NOT considered SPS as they have editorial staff and processes, but that doesn't really matter as (again, as I've already told you but you conveniently keep ignoring), the book has also been by TechPress.. The books I listed are good under WP:RS and WP:V. That doesn't necessarily make them sources we should use, it depends on the context. Business school for example probably shouldn't be used for more than noting Trump and Kiyosaki's support for the model.--Insider201283 (talk) 11:26, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

(remove indent) Come on Insider201283, Cashflow can clearly be shown to be a company Kiyosaki owns Trying to claim that author of a book who as documented by the Business Entity Information of Nevada is not only President of the publisher but also is the Secretary, Treasurer, and Director is not self published is pure insanity. Also as user:Arthur Rubin and I both pointed out and are supported by such people as John T. Reed (whose views on real estate gurus like Kiyosaki and real estate investment in general have appeared in such reliable publishers as MSN Money, CNN Money, and even the New York Times) Kiyosaki is hardly an expert unless it is in very questionable and potentially illegal advice. If anything Kiyosaki is the poster child of what is wrong with MLMs.--BruceGrubb (talk) 07:14, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh good grief, Bruce, don't you have anything better to do with your life than argue about irrelevancies? Nobody is trying to use Business School as a reference ... yet here you are expending all this energy to say it shouldn't be used!!! WHO CARES??!?!??! --Insider201283 (talk) 10:36, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Insider20128, you are expending all this energy defending a publisher and author that can't be defended.--BruceGrubb (talk) 12:17, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
 * For the record TechPress by their own admission "played a key role in the global success of the Rich Dad brand in coordinating international rights for the Rich Dad series of books (over 26 million copies sold worldwide)." That they claim credit for making a man who admits to using his cat as a business partner as a contract dodge and whose advice has been said to be at best unethical if not outright illegal famous does not make them very credible.--BruceGrubb (talk) 08:54, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

title: Talk:Multi-level marketing/Archive 3


text:
Talk:Athlete (band)

Untitled
Should I add the stub template or a vfd? Moogle 08:35, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The link to Steve Roberts looks incorrect. 02:56, 23 Apr 2005 (GMT)

...And Tim Wanstall's father is an I.T teacher :P Hpmons 18:12, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Compilations
Should we have a life of Compilations that have Athlete track on them? No other band has a list like this that actually works. ≈ Seraph 31 08:24, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I reverted it back to the Compilations - didn't seem to be doing any harm as it was Matfo 12:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Using that same logic, I wouldn't be doing any harm in removing it... ≈ Seraph 31 15:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Athlete (band)


text:
User:Iorsh/Sandbox

Cistus

 * Medicinal: Abad (1997), Anastasaki (1998, 1999), Angelopoulu (1998, 2001), Attaguile (1995-2004), Bouamama (1999), DeAndres (1999), Demetzos (many), Dimas (1998, 2002), García-González (2001), Hudson(2000), Kalea (1995), Kalpoutzakis, Lawrence, Öğütveren (2004), Petereit (1989), Yeşilada (1997)
 * History: Abrahams (1979)
 * Browsing & pasture: Ammar (2004), Bruno-Soares (2001, 2004), Lima (2001, 2003), Yeruham (2001),
 * Industry: Türkmen (2004)

title: User:Iorsh/Sandbox


text:
Talk:Ghulam Mustafa Jatoi

Verification
it has been re checked to confirm.

Sons
The article states that he had six sons, one of whom predeceased him; ref 2 states he left behind six sons; his French article states he had six sons. Which is true? Lkjhgfdsa 0 (talk) 21:21, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

External links modified
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title: Talk:Ghulam Mustafa Jatoi


text:
Nightly Business Report

Nightly Business Report was an American business news magazine television program that aired on public television stations from January 22, 1979 to December 27, 2019, for most of that time syndicated by American Public Television. Internationally the show was seen on CNBC Europe and CNBC Asia.

From January 22, 1979 to March 1, 2013, the show was produced at WPBT in Miami, Florida. In February 2013, CNBC purchased the program and closed its Miami operations. Tyler Mathisen joined Susie Gharib as co-anchor when it relaunched on March 4, 2013 to coincide with Gharib's return to CNBC after leaving it in 1998 to join NBR. Gharib left NBR on December 31, 2014; she was replaced on January 5, 2015 by Sue Herera, previously Mathisen's co-anchor on CNBC's Power Lunch, and the final female anchor of the program. On March 9, 2018, Mathisen left the program, and was replaced three days later by original Power Lunch anchor Bill Griffeth who reunited with his former PL co-anchor Herera. He is also known as a final male anchor of the program.

On November 11, 2019, CNBC announced that Nightly Business Report would be discontinued at the end of the year. The final broadcast aired on December 27, 2019, which ended NBR's nearly 41–year run.

Format
The daily program consisted of reports on the changes in the stock market, indices, and stocks of note for the day, including the Dow Jones Industrial Average, NASDAQ, the S&P 500, and other major markets, as well as interviews with important business persons, generally CEOs of major companies as well as economists, market analysts and policy makers.

Special programs on market holidays departed from this format, and often dealt with a single subject or theme; New Year's Day and Independence Day editions tended to focus on retrospectives and predictions for the past and coming fiscal periods. The program often concluded with a commentary. Segments within the program included Market Monitor, Street Critique, Women in Leadership, and Planet Forward to name a few. There was a 15-minute morning version of NBR called Morning Business Report hosted by Melissa Conti that ran from January 3, 1994 to December 31, 2002.

Broadcast history
The idea for a business news program had come from several businessmen on the WPBT Board. Linda O'Bryon, who was WPBT's News Director at the time, headed the effort to get NBR on the air. In the fall of 1978, she was approached by senior management and asked to create a daily business news program. She developed the program concept and expanded the editorial staff to launch NBR (then called "The Nightly Business Report"). Paul Kangas was among the first to join, signing on as its stock market commentator. O'Bryon and Merwin Sigale were the first co-anchors. The editorial/production team that launched the program included WPBT veterans Rodney Ward, Bruce Eibe, and Jeff Huff, and Jack Kahn, who was the program's first producer.

Starting on January 22, 1979, NBR was initially launched as a local show, then two years later, on October 19, 1981, it was launched nationwide on 125 public stations around the country. The show was originally 15 minutes long, but it was expanded to 30 minutes later in 1979. Merwin Sigale went on to resign in 1980, being replaced by former WTVJ anchor Del Frank. The first regular commentator on the program when it went national was Alan Greenspan, then a private economist, who remained as an NBR commentator until his appointment as Chairman of the Federal Reserve in 1987. A number of public television stations supplemented the program's newsgathering efforts by serving as "bureaus" for the program.

In 1989, Jim Wicks was named co-anchor, and moved from the flagship station of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation in Toronto where he was main anchor. At the end of his contract, Wicks moved to ABC News in Cleveland. He has since left the television news business and returned to his motion picture career where he got his start. He works in post-production as a film colorist.

From 1989 to 1991, broadcast journalist Frank Mottek served as substitute anchor for Paul Kangas providing the "Stock Market Report and Commentary." Mottek solo anchored the program on January 1, 1991 and periodically co-anchored NBR with Paul Kangas while filling in for the other two main anchors. Mottek is currently business news anchor in Los Angeles on all news station KNX and host of the business news program Mottek On Money.

In 1990, on the height of the series' popularity, WPBT launched its unit, NBR Enterprises to sell videotapes and newsletters that was centered around the series. Following it, the show came yet another overhaul in 1991, when one anchor came from New York, and the other anchor came from Miami, while adding its own bureaus in Los Angeles and Chicago, and hired Cassie Seifert to serve as anchor of the desk in the New York department.

In 1998, financial journalist Susie Gharib joined the anchor desk with Paul Kangas. Gharib anchored from the heart of New York's financial district, while Kangas remained at the program's production center in Miami.

From 1988 to 1997, NBR was co-produced by Reuters, and from 1997 to 2001, it was co-produced by its arch-rival before its bankruptcy, Bridge Information Systems.

NBR was also seen internationally through Worldnet, the U.S. Radio and Television Armed Services network and on SBS in Australia and Triangle Television in New Zealand. Audio of the program aired on Sirius XM satellite radio at 7:00pm ET. NBR operated three reporting bureaus with full-time staff members as well as bureaus in Denver, Silicon Valley, and Phoenix operated in partnership with the public television stations in those markets.

In 2005, the show switched distributors from American Public Television, to PBS, in order to avoid the risk of losing affiliates and make the show accessible to the PBS National Programming Service.

Over the years, NBR has received numerous awards. In 2005, for extended coverage of China's emergence as an international economic power, and in 2006 the website was honored with a Best In Class award from the International Media Council. Rodney Ward took over from Linda O'Bryon in 2006 after she had left to join KQED, serving as executive editor and senior vice president through 2011. O'Bryon eventually became President and Chief Executive Officer of South Carolina ETV; she retired in 2017.

In 2009, NBR began broadcasting in high definition, with broadcasts presented in a letterboxed format for viewers with standard-definition television sets watching either through cable or satellite television. The program also introduced a new set and upconverted its existing graphics package to HD.

Paul Kangas's last broadcast for Nightly Business Report was on December 31, 2009, ending a 30-year run. The following day, on January 1, 2010, Tom Hudson took over as NBR's anchor, broadcasting from Miami, and reporting on topics such as Federal Reserve interest rate policy, corporate governance and shareholder activism as well as providing insights to daily market activity. Prior to co-anchoring Nightly Business Report, he was host and managing editor of the nationally syndicated financial television program First Business. In July 2011, Hudson was named Managing Editor and Co-anchor, a newly combined position with both editorial and managerial responsibility.

On August 23, 2010, it was announced that WPBT-TV had sold the show to NBR Worldwide Inc., a newly formed, privately held company headed by Mykalai Kontilai, who became the majority owner of the program. Kontilai, an entrepreneur in the Instructional Television Distribution (ITV) industry. Gary Ferrell, a former president and chief executive of North Texas Public Broadcasting (parent company of KERA-TV in Dallas, Texas), is the company's Chief Financial Officer. The sale was first proposed in February. According to WPBT, the station would continue to be associated with the show as a presenting station, and the sale reflected their assessment that NBR Worldwide Inc. had "the ideas and resources and potential to take it to the next level" and "can do more things with it than WPBT could." Rick Schneider, President and Chief Executive Officer of WPBT, said the staff and editorial team won't change and "Nobody loses their job as a result of this." Until the name changed, the program was carried under the "Community Television Foundation of South Florida, Inc." banner and produced by NBR Enterprises, Inc./WPBT Miami.

Schneider's promises proved short-lived. In November 2010, NBR Worldwide Inc. announced a restructuring of the Nightly Business Report staff. That restructuring resulted in job cuts for four on-air contributors and half the reporting staff, including Scott Gurvey (New York bureau chief), Stephanie Dhue (Washington), Jeff Yastine (Miami) and Jamila Trindle (Washington DC), in addition to founding producer Jack Kahn and three other behind-the-scenes personnel.

On November 16, 2010, NBR Worldwide Inc. announced the promotions of Rodney Ward from Executive Editor to Executive Vice President of Special Projects. Ward's former executive editor duties were assumed by managing editor Wendie Feinberg, who was also promoted to Vice President/Managing Editor. Those changes also did not last long. On July 11, 2011, following the decision of PBS to drop the broadcast from its national schedule and cut all funding, NBR Worldwide Inc. announced the departures of Rodney Ward as Executive Vice President of Special Projects, and Wendie Feinberg, as Vice President/Managing Editor. In a press release, NBR Worldwide said the moves were "...part of its ongoing efforts to streamline operations and maximize resources." Chief Executive Officer Mykalai Kontilai said Miami-based anchor Tom Hudson would assume the role and title of Managing Editor, in addition to his current on-air duties.

In November 2011, Rick Ray succeeded Kontilai as Chief Executive Officer of NBR Worldwide, Inc. after Kontilai sold the company to Atalaya Capital Management, a private equity firm based out of NYC. In addition, he also became the new executive producer of NBR. Gary Ferrell also departed the company at this time. Several additional members of the editorial staff were also fired. In addition, the show returned to American Public Television after six years on the PBS schedule.

In December 2012, Atalaya fired another seven NBR editorial employees, including Chicago Bureau Chief Diane Eastabrook. The program also announced the complete closing of its Chicago bureau, leaving it with staff reporters only in New York and Washington, D.C. Of the terminated employees, NBR Managing Editor Tom Hudson said, "I consider it an honor to call them colleagues."

On March 1, 2013, NBR aired its final broadcast under the production of WPBT. Effective March 4, 2013, CNBC would produce NBR. As a result, anchor Tom Hudson and many other correspondents Darren Gersh (Washington DC Bureau Chief) Suzanne Pratt (New York) And Erika Miller (New York) were laid off, and the show's Miami studios were shut down as well. CNBC's Tyler Mathisen replaced Hudson, and anchored alongside Susie Gharib from CNBC Global Headquarters in Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey. Gharib left NBR at the end of 2014 and was replaced with Sue Herera, who was previously Mathisen's co-anchor on CNBC's Power Lunch; Herera would remain with the program until a few weeks before it ended.

On March 12, 2018, Bill Griffeth, formerly co-anchor of CNBC's Closing Bell, joined NBR to replace Tyler Mathisen. Griffeth was reunited with his former Power Lunch co-anchor, Sue Herera, on this program.

On November 11, 2019, CNBC announced that NBR would air its last broadcast on December 27, 2019. At the end of that night's broadcast, Griffeth made an on-air announcement of the program's end, thanking both the public television community and viewers for their support (and ending the program's long run by paying homage to longtime anchor Paul Kangas [who had died two years earlier] by playing a clip of his "Best of good buys(pun on goodbyes)" sign-off; the text was an adaptation of a post at the NBR website made earlier that day. After the show was closed, many stations displace the series by simulcasts of BBC World News, specifically the Outside Source program.

Miami

 * Paul Kangas (1979–2009)
 * Tom Hudson (2009–2013)
 * Merwin Sigale (1979-1980)
 * Del Frank (1980–1985)
 * Jim Wicks (1989–1991)
 * Frank Mottek (1989–1992)
 * Linda O'Bryon (1979–2006)
 * Dean Shepherd (1985–1988)
 * Jeff Yastine (1993–2010)

New York

 * Susie Gharib (1998–2014)
 * Sue Herera (2015–2019)
 * Bill Griffeth (2018–2019)
 * Suzanne Pratt (1990–2013)
 * Tyler Mathisen (2013–2018)
 * Cassie Seifert (1991–1997)
 * Scott Gurvey (1982–2010)
 * Erika Miller (1996–2013)

Title cards and theme music
The themes and bumper music that were used from 1979 to 1991 were composed by Edd Kalehoff, also known for themes on other television series and game shows. The longest-running theme, also composed by Kalehoff, was used from January 7, 1991 to November 15, 2002. Along with an update to the graphics and presentation, the theme was updated on November 18, 2002 and was used until January 1, 2010. A new theme, logo, and set for the show's Miami headquarters debuted on January 4, 2010. This theme lasted until April 27, 2012. On April 30, 2012, a new virtual theme was introduced to the show with new graphics and music. On March 4, 2013, another new set of graphics was introduced, yet the theme music remained the same. On January 4, 2016, the graphics were changed again; this time they were modeled after CNBC's current graphics package (which itself had been used since October 2014).

title: Nightly Business Report


text: Category:Rhode Island culture

title: Category:Rhode Island culture


text:
Ernie Pieterse

Ernest Pieterse (4 July 1938 – 1 November 2017) was a racing driver from South Africa. He participated in three Formula One World Championship Grands Prix, debuting on 29 December 1962. He scored no championship points.

Complete Formula One World Championship results
(key)

Non-Championship
(key)

title: Ernie Pieterse


text: Category:Members of the Rhode Island House of Representatives


text:
Alberto Rodríguez Larreta

Alberto Rodríguez Larreta (14 January 1934 – 11 March 1977) was a racing driver from Buenos Aires, Argentina. He participated in one World Championship Formula One Grand Prix, the 1960 Argentine Grand Prix on 7 February 1960. Driving a Lotus 16 for Team Lotus, he qualified 15th and finished in ninth place. Larreta was reportedly offered a drive by Colin Chapman, but turned it down and continued competing in a wide variety of other motorsports until 1970. He died from a heart attack in 1977.

Complete Formula One World Championship results
(key)

title: Alberto Rodríguez Larreta


text: Category:Rhode Island General Assembly

title: Category:Rhode Island General Assembly


text:
Ada Conformity Assessment Test Suite

The Ada Conformity Assessment Test Suite (ACATS) is the test suite used for Ada processor conformity testing. A prior test suite was known as the Ada Compiler Validation Capability (ACVC).

ACVC era
The Ada Compiler Validation Capability test suite, commonly referred to as the ACVC tests, was the original test suite developed for the Ada language. The ACVC system was organized under the aegis of the Ada Joint Program Office.

The tests were developed by the American company SofTech, beginning around 1980. The test suites were modeled on a VAX/VMS system, which was the dominant host platform for such defense-related applications at the time. Some of the tests were composed using orthogonal Latin squares as an approach towards get the most effective coverage of language feature combinations without employing an exhaustive enumeration of them.

The individual test files were based on the section of the Ada reference manual they pointed to, for instance C45210A.ADA. The suite included both positive tests and negative tests. There was an organization set up to review queries vendors raised as to whether a certain aspect of one or more tests was an accurate reflection of the language standard.

The year 1985 saw the issuing of the first Ada validation certificates. At the height of the language's use, which corresponded to the years 1985 through 1993, there were five Ada Validation Facilities around the world that could process vendor ACVC submissions: the Language Control Facility at Wright Patterson Air Force Base (United States), the National Bureau of Standards (United States, soon renamed to the National Institute of Standards), the National Computing Centre (United Kingdom), AFNOR (France), and IABG (Germany). However once Ada use for defense or similar applications began falling, the number of validation contracts fell as well, and several of these facilities became inoperative or transferred their responsibilities.

The Ada Compiler Validation Capability came to an end with the closure of the Ada Joint Program Office in 1998. Ada compiler vendors still wanted a validation mechanism, however, so a new validation system was devised to replace it, the Ada Conformity Assessment Test Suite.

ACATS era
The preface to the test report includes the following:

 * Conformity assessment does not ensure that a processor has no nonconformities to the Ada standard other than those, if any, documented in this report. The compiler vendor declares that the tested processor contains no deliberate deviation from the Ada standard; a copy of this Declaration of Conformity is presented immediately after the certificate.

The second paragraph of the background of the current ACAA procedures says:

 * It is important to note the scope and intent of conformity assessment. The purpose of conformity assessment is to ensure that Ada processors achieve a high degree of conformity with the Ada standard (Ada95 as corrected by [TC1]). Characteristics such as performance and suitability for a particular application are not specified by the standard, and thus are outside the scope of Ada conformity assessment. Moreover, the ACATS is a set of test programs intended to check broadly for correct implementation; it is not possible to exhaustively test for conformity. Thus, conformity is checked only to the extent of these tests; processors that are certified as conforming may fail to conform to the standard in ways peculiar to each, under particular circumstances.

The ACATS consists of 1821 tests with 255,838 lines of code occupying 30 MB of storage. The test suite is publicly available, for example as a part of the source distribution of the GNU Compiler Collection, which also contains the Ada compiler GNAT.

title: Ada Conformity Assessment Test Suite


text:
Archie Scott Brown

William Archibald Scott Brown, known as Archie, (13 May 1927 – 19 May 1958) was a British Formula One and sports car racing driver from Scotland who had a prodigious racing ability despite having the fingers of his right hand missing and having to use his palm to drive. He was educated at Clifton Hall School and Merchiston Castle School, in Edinburgh, Scotland. He became known as motorsport's first disabled hero and battled considerable adversity (including having his licence revoked) to participate in, and win, some of the most prestigious races of his day, besides being the biggest idol of his compatriot Jim Clark. After being discovered and championed by Brian Lister, he enjoyed great success racing Lister Cars, winning the British Empire Trophy in 1957. In his short career, he scored a total of 71 race victories, 15 of which came from international competition. He participated in one Formula One World Championship Grand Prix on 14 July 1956, scoring no championship points. He also attempted to qualify for the Italian Grand Prix in the same year, but was excluded due to his lack of the required International Licence, his disability precluding the granting of such a licence at the time.

Overcoming disability to compete
Archie Scott Brown (although often shown as Scott-Brown, the name should not be hyphenated) was born in Paisley on 13 May 1927. As a result of German Measles during his mother's pregnancy, he was born with severe disablement to his legs (with his feet twisted almost backwards) and without the fingers of his right hand. Tremendous determination, 22 operations over a two-year period, and months spent in plaster meant that he was able to walk, although he never grew over 5'0" tall.

After Scott Brown won two races at Snetterton on 3 April 1954, Sid Green of Gilby Engineering noticed that he had an unformed right hand and brought this to the attention of the race stewards. Scott Brown was forthwith banned from motor racing, a devastating blow to the up-and-coming racing driver. It brought his burgeoning career to a sudden halt and his future looked uncertain. However, Earl Howe, the president of the British Racing Drivers' Club, had previously seen Scott Brown driving and had made a note to find out who he was. When he made contact with Scott Brown and discovered that he had subsequently been banned from racing, he supported Scott Brown's appeal to the RAC. Dr Benjafield and Gregor Grant, the then-editor of Autosport, also supported Scott Brown's appeal. By June 1954, Scott Brown had his licence back.

Early life
Scott Brown took up motor sport early in life after his father built him a small car to aid his mobility. His first competitive race was in 1951, in his own MG roadster, bought using a small legacy. As his reputation grew, his name became closely linked with that of Brian Lister, initially driving Lister's Tojeiro special, and later in sports racing cars built by Lister himself, and bearing his name. Scott Brown enjoyed much success driving Lister-Jaguars – the famous Knobblys. Known for his courageous driving style, he was often to be seen in corners getting his Lister very sideways indeed. Asked about the possibility of the Lister's brakes failing completely, he responded that he would "carry on without them, old boy". Over the few years he was in the sport, he developed a fierce but good-natured rivalry with rising American driving talent Masten Gregory.

Death
Scott Brown was mortally injured on 18 May 1958 during an accident in a sports car race at Spa-Francorchamps, driving a Lister Knobbly and duelling for the lead with Masten Gregory driving the Ecurie Ecosse Lister Jaguar. Battling hard with Gregory, they swapped the lead between them inches apart. The competition was so fierce that Scott Brown dented his car's nose on the rear of the Ecosse car on lap three. With Scott Brown leading on lap six, they arrived at Blanchimont, then in the Clubhouse bend (where Richard Seaman had died in 1939), to find the track slick with rain; the right-hand front wheel of the Lister hit a road sign, snapping the track rod and causing a disastrous accident. Scott Brown died in hospital (Heusy) the following day, less than a week after his 31st birthday.

Complete Formula One World Championship results
(key)

title: Archie Scott Brown


text:
Brian Shawe-Taylor

Brian Newton Shawe-Taylor (28 January 1915 – 1 May 1999) was a British racing driver. He participated in 3 World Championship Grands Prix and numerous non-Championship Formula One races. He scored no World Championship points.

Shawe-Taylor was born in Dublin, Ireland, the younger of two sons of Francis Manley Shawe-Taylor (1869–1920), magistrate and high sheriff for the county of Galway, and his wife, Agnes Mary Eleanor née Ussher (1874–1939). His parents were members of the Anglo-Irish ruling classes; he was related to the playwright and co-founder of the Abbey Theatre, Lady Gregory and a cousin of Sir Hugh Lane who founded Dublin's gallery of modern art.

Following the murder of the father in 1920 by Irish nationalists, the family moved to England, where Shawe-Taylor attended Shrewsbury School.

Shawe-Taylor started racing before the war, winning the Nuffield Trophy in 1939. After the war he raced an ERA, with which he tried to enter the 1950 British Grand Prix. The organisers deemed his car to be too old, but he managed to take part in the race anyway, by sharing the Maserati 4CL of Joe Fry. The following year, he practiced a Ferrari entered by Tony Vandervell at the 1951 French Grand Prix, but ultimately Reg Parnell drove the car during the race.

His entry was accepted for the 1951 British Grand Prix, despite the fact that he was still campaigning his old ERA, and he finished the race in 8th position as the top privateer, albeit six laps down on the winner. He also raced in the 24 Hours of Le Mans that year, sharing an Aston Martin DB2 with George Abecassis, finishing 5th. He was later seriously injured in an accident at Goodwood, when he spun the ERA and was hit by Toni Branca. Shawe-Taylor recovered but his career was ended.

Shawe-Taylor was the younger brother of the music critic Desmond Shawe-Taylor, and the father of the art historian and Surveyor of the Queen's Pictures, the younger Desmond Shawe-Taylor, LVO.

Complete Formula One World Championship results
(key)

 *  * Indicates shared drive with Joe Fry

title: Brian Shawe-Taylor


text:
Dave Morgan (racing driver)

David Rowland John Morgan (7 August 1944 – 6 November 2018) was a British racing driver from England. He participated in one Formula One World Championship Grand Prix, the 1975 British Grand Prix in which, like several others, he crashed during a storm in the closing laps. He was classified 18th and thus scored no championship points.

Driving career
Prior to his single grand prix entry, Morgan raced a Mini in the mid-1960s, and soon moved on to Formula Three. He incurred a 12-month ban for dangerous driving at the end of 1970, after a last corner collision with James Hunt at Crystal Palace, but was subsequently allowed to progress to Formula Atlantic in 1971. This was followed by two seasons in Formula Two, then a return to Formula Atlantic. After his one Grand Prix, he retired from racing until returning in the British Saloon Car Championship in 1980–1981, driving a Mitsubishi Colt Lancer. Morgan also later worked as an engineer to Eric van de Poele, in both Formula One and Formula 3000.

He died on 6 November 2018, following a stroke.

Complete Formula One results
(key)

Complete British Saloon / Touring Car Championship results
(key) (Races in bold indicate pole position – 1973–1990 in class) (Races in italics indicate fastest lap – 1 point awarded ?–1989 in class)

† Events with 2 races staged for the different classes.

title: Dave Morgan (racing driver)