text:
Talk:Homosexuality/Archive 2

Assertion that someone incorrectly identified as gay in this article
The gentleman named is NOT, to the best of my knowledge (which is pretty good, as a gay politician), openly gay. It's an open secret, but if he had come out, it would have been pretty massive news. I refer you to the note on outing at the top of List of famous gay, lesbian, or bisexual people. - Montréalais 16:58, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)

-

New topic for discussion: History of Homosexuality--Cross-cultural
Throughout most of written history, homosexual relations usually took the form of pederasty, that is, they were characterized by a marked age difference and the fixed assignment of sexual roles.

While this may be true in certain cultures eg the Roman Empire, ancient Greece, it is evidently not true in others, eg the Court of King William II of England (who ruled 1086-1100) or the molly houses of London. The article alludes to the fact that homosexuality didn't exist before the nineteenth century, and someone looking for a greater history of homosexuality outside of the confines of this or of ancient civilisations is left seriously wanting. There is a long and very interesting history to homosexuality and I could write about it but it's going to take me a bit of time. Votes for making it a new article? Or should we shove it all under the history heading here? Graham :)  20:27, 26 Sep 2003 (UTC)

 * If you think there will be enough to make a new article, sure, go ahead. -- Kimiko 21:19, 26 Sep 2003 (UTC)

 * There is an interesting book on the Chinese history, Passions of the Cut Sleeve, but Bret Hinsch, ISBN 0-520--06720-7. -- Patrick0Moran

 * I am looking forward to that, it's quite neccessary to write an article about the History of Homosexuality. Once it's done, i will translate it into Chinese. Just do that! :D --Gboy 16:15, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)

 * The best expression of erotic attraction between males is Cao Xue-qin's discription of the feelings of the (pre-pubertal) Bao Yu toward the (pre-pubertal) Qin Zhong, and the latter's similar feelings toward Bao Yu. That is in a page or so of text near the beginning of Hong Lou Meng (Translated as "Story of the Stone"). The sex comes a little later. Referring to materials like this lets the reader judge whether this form of behavior is "homosexual" or something else that existed in a non-Western context. Another source would be materials in Shi2 Shuo1 Xin1 Yu3 regarding the amorous and sexual activities of historical individuals in the fifth (?) century. Hinsch's book is interesting in that it includes mention of negative stereotypes and abusive behaviors as well as historical mentions of erotic behavior that don't give much information about the motivations of the individuals involved. Also, in the Tale of Genji there is one story in which Genji goes to visit a lovely young lady who is out of town, so he spends the night with her younger brother and is just about as well satisfied. Love? Depends on your definition. Erotic dalliance? Definitely.Patrick0Moran 17:14, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)

 * That's interesting. I know very little about the hostory of homosexuality in China, but i prefer to know more( but i like to read more about that in western countries). The attitude towards homosexuality in China is vague...--Gboy 10:06, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)

It would be well worthwhile to do some primary historical research in Qing dynasty and 20th Century sources to work out what the actual changes were. I seem to remember that the Manchurians considered the sexuality of the Han Chinese in need of correction when they gained political control over China. Ming novels have some interesting stuff on sexuality, but hard to know what connection the fictional accounts had to real affairs.

I've seen it asserted that before the Second World War homosexuality was widely accepted in Japan, and that in the early decades after the war it was very thoroughly suppressed because those in control of Japanese society thought the practice put Japan in a bad light in the rest of the world.

Bai Xian-yong, in his novel Nie4 Zi3, depicts a society in Taiwan in the 60s where homosexual behavior was definitely present and was strongly repressed by the police. Interestingly enough, there was no legal basis for harassing gays, but it happened anyway. In mainland China the assertion, until AIDS rates made it sound ridiculous, that homosexuality was a Western perversion, a symptom of Western decadence, and that it simply never happened in China.

It might be possible to do an oral history of the situation in mainland China. Also, several gay Chinese coming from the PRC have established websites to tell their stories.

One thing to keep in mind with respect to the Greek model and similar situations is that the age and/or status differences may have served as rationalizations for what was basically just the attraction two people felt for each other. On the other hand, there are at least many stories about senior monks or abbots who used considerably younger monks. I don't recall any stories about younger monks making erotic advances toward considerably older monks. In the case of stories of samurai in Japan, however, there were stories of people who became infatuated with an older samurai. All of the storybook material could only serve as a basis for research hypotheses.

At least up until the fifth or sixth century in China there doesn't seem to have been any shame attached to homosexual relations. There was no shame indicated in the Tale of Genji from Japan, either. So during those times whatever is written is probably pretty reliable as long as it isn't something that was deliberately sensationalistic. But something seems to have happened after those times. I have no way to guess when it happened or exactly what the change was. However, if "nice" people could no longer practice homosexuality in the open, perhaps that paved the way for some of what appears to have been coercive interactions in the monasteries. If there were social strictures that made open relations between people of equal status, then maybe those relations were either disguised as the more "normal" kind of thing that was taking place within monasteries, or perhaps those were the only places where erotic attachments could be expressed. Patrick0Moran 07:21, 8 Oct 2003 (UTC)

social construction of homosexuality?
It's my opinion that sexual orientation as we regard it today is an invention of society.

The concept simply didn't/doesn't exist in certain cultures, such as the Ancient Greeks, who freely felt sexual attraction for well, whatever they felt it for, without prejudice.

Generally societies have frowned upon bestiality and incest, but 'bisexuality' to some degree is the norm in older cultures especially.

Generally, though, you'll find that around the same distribution of 'homosexual' people arose in those societies as well. Whereas almost everyone in Ancient Greece had some degree of homosexual interaction, about the same minority of people actually entered long term love relationships with members of the same sex. This suggests that homosexuality evolved more predominantly as a mechanism of social-sexual bonding, but secondarily as a mechanism for love-infatuation bonding. It could be presumed that homosexual relationships evolved to form a sort of suppport system to look after the the children of the tribe who had been orphaned, or were simply in excess to their families.

Khranus

new content -- NPOV question
Someone has added:
 * Homosexuality and AIDS

 * Risks of homosexual life are rarely advertised in the media. But as much as 29% of American gays are infected with HIV. In Europe, the pertcentage of HIV positive homosexual males is lower, at around 7-9%. Some pharmaceutical companies try to conceal this fact, as the high number of HIV positive people in USA is seen mainly as a market for the HIV supressing drugs.

This content does not sound neutral, especially as regards the activities of pharmaceutical companies. Proof?

Patrick0Moran 19:02, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * 29%? That requires a boat load of good citations to back up. It is also highly suspect given the great deal of controversy surrounding just what percentage of the population is homosexual to begin with. Reverted. --mav 22:20, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

 * That sounds like a reasonably accurate presentation of some figures of HIV infection rate correlated with the practice of anal sex which I saw a year or so ago. The major flaw in what was added here was the mistaken assumption that anal sex equals homosexuality. However, I don't have the study results to hand - if I happen across them I'll present some better substantiated figures, though they really belong in an article about HIV, since the practice of anal sex is not indicative of homosexuality. Jamesday 21:16, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The following changes were reverted:

 * most people who regard themselves as having a homosexual orientation
 * most white Americans who regard themselves as having a homosexual orientation

 * less common as acceptance of homosexuality increases
 * less common, especially among more affluent whites, as acceptance of homosexuality increases

 * the question naturally arises
 * the question naturally arises in our notably heterosexist society

The first two show a POV biased toward the USA/racial differences. Although an explanation of racial differences regarding homosexuality would certainly be a valuable addition, it would IMO be better to put it in a separate paragraph instead of changing the rest of the text.

The third change is clearly POV. Not only is it not made clear which society is referred to, but heterosexist is also quite condemning here.

-- Kimiko 14:25, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

- P0M: Hyacinth has added a statement from the Safe Schools Coalition that presumes to tell people not to use the term "homosexuality." The quoted passage would be pertinent to a discussion of the emotional attitude toward such words, but is not NPOV and does not constitute a discussion either of what homosexuality is or even what the word means. I favor removing the passage. Perhaps it belongs somewhere else.

 * The quote probably belongs in another part of this article but it most definitely does belong, and I believe it is NPOV to discuss what people have said. The Safe Schools Coalition of Washington did print the quote, and so saying they printed it is completely factual information. I also think it applies to the meaning of a word whether or not it is offensive. I'll add a sentence before the quote and see if that helps.-Hyacinth

"Persecution of homosexuals ("gay bashing") in such cultures is common; the experience of homosexuals in Nazi Germany for example is a natural evolution of earlier persecutions marked by torture, mutilations, burnings, and hangings."

 * Would whoever inserted these claims please provide some references for the supposed violent persecutions of homosexuals (outside Nazi Germany of course)? They seem doubtful; the penalties laid out in Canon 11 of the Third Lateran Council (1179 A.D.), for example, are defrocking and imprisonment for clergy, excommunication for laymen; severe, yes, but not "torture, mutilation, burning, and hanging". --MIRV 05:02, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)

 * I think the non-NPOV assertion here is that any part of the Holocaust naturally grew out of anything. Maybe it did (the ransacking without rebuilding after WWI didn't help much), but I don't think one could ever prove this specific point.

Issues with "related articles" section
I have a problem with this section for several reasons:

1. "Related articles/topics" should surely should mean related topics? How is frottage related to homosexuality? Same goes for oral sex and mutual masturbation. Surely a link to list of sex-related topics would suffice? 2. Compare the 80+ links on Homosexuality to the 31 links on [[Heterosexuality, several of which are actually about gay-related topics (eg: Reparative therapy and ex-gay) 3. Surely the test should be "could these links be intergrated into the article text? 4. There is a glut of links. Most of them are redundant and could be taken care of with a single link (see below):

sex, sexual behavior, sexual intercourse, frottage,tribadism, oral sex, mutual masturbation, anal sex, safer sex List of gay-related topics
 * Human sexual orientation or sexual orientation
 * This one covers bisexuality, heterosexuality and homosexuality.
 * causes of sexual orientation should probably be embedded in the article text.
 * sexual desire, sexual attraction, situational sexual behavior
 * These would all be covered nicely by a single link to list of sexology topics
 * pederasty is covered by the "history of" links, of which possibly only one is neeeded (specifically history of homosexuality)
 * Many of the other topics are covered by the link to
 * Some links have no place here or are redundant:
 * consensual crime, perversion, marriage (same-sex marriage suffices), lesbian, queer, lesbigay, down-low (should be linked in the text) cottaging, hustler, rent boy, molly house

Comments please. Exploding Boy 04:17, Feb 15, 2004 (UTC)

 * Hi. I shall out myself as the person who added a lot of those links (but not frottage, eek).  I obviously got a bit carrried away.  :)  I personally don't see any problem with duplicating links from the article in the see also section, one link buried in a paragraph may be hard to find.  But, the section is too large.  Perhaps someone should have a good look at the list of gay related topics, and merge the two (they are not all duplicates).
 * And to defend some of the inclusions... pederasty is not just historical; perversion is how some people view homosexuality, it adds balance to the gay pride etc sections; prostitution is just something I'm interested in as a subject, so the element which served the gay community interested me; the section on certain sexual practices (oral, anal, mutual masterbation, safer sex) ... I was trying to think why people would have looked up homosexuality, there will surely be young people who know little about sex in general, perhaps with doubts about their own sexuality, trying to find out basic information about what homosexuals "get up to" etc... in some countries information about homosexual activity is going to be hard to find, and not all over the TV like it is in the USA etc. fabiform | talk 08:06, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * To Exploding Boy: be bold in editing pages. If you seriously think something needs changing, don't be afraid of trying out something new. We can always revert it or put back some of the old stuff. I think your proposal is a good idea.
 * To fabiform: I don't think subjects already linked in the article text need to be mentioned again under Related Links. And people who are clueless about sexuality in general should follow the link to list of sexology topics or sex, not homosexuality.
 * -- Kimiko 10:07, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

 * Being, as I am, currently in the midst of disputes over homosexuality-related topics, I'm treading carefully to avoid accusations. Exploding Boy 13:58, Feb 15, 2004 (UTC)

 * Fair enough... if I were you I'd have a good trimming session if the length of that section bothers you. And also review the list of gay topics to make sure it's got all the links you think are relevant as well.  I wont make a fuss about any you choose to do away with.  :)  fabiform | talk 14:19, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Have trimmed. Would still like to see the External Links and References section divided and tidied. Exploding Boy 14:53, Feb 15, 2004 (UTC)

 * there are no rules on how closed to the topics the related-topics should be, but i would like to see what's going on here, maybe we can meet a consensus later. the current style seems more neatly. but readers may need to click more times to get to the article they want, sometimes. --Yacht (Talk)Q 01:13, Feb 17, 2004 (UTC)

Recent Vandalism
The best part about the recent vandalism is that the guy can't spell. I'm not sure what fagots are, but he sure hates them. Exploding Boy 08:32, Mar 20, 2004 (UTC)

 * er... eh? well... I admire his patience, awe! :o ;p--Yacht 17:33, Mar 21, 2004 (UTC)

Anyone report it on Vandalism in progress yet? --zandperl 01:15, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Is it a coincidence that vandals attacking this page lack skill with the English language? This most recent "May we indeed hope for their speedy demise in great pain..." probably is supposed to mean something like "may we hope that these 'faggots' [sic] die a quick and painful death." Instead it sounds like those doing the hoping are to suffer great pain in their hopes for the "speedy demise". That's fine with me! :) Uranographer 04:27, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

Homosexuality in animals
Is there an article on homosexuality in animals? I'd recently been reading about the Central Park Zoo (in NYC) penguins, Roy and Silo, whom hatched an egg together. This article mentions the topic, but a more in-depth treatment including references for the bonobo study would be nice. If there is already a page on this topic, let me know, otherwise I'll start one. --zandperl | Talk

Orientation
Cut from article:

 * Although the term is sometimes used to describe all same-sex sexual behavior as well as other same-sex sexual or romantic interest, homosexuality usually implies an exclusive or predominant sexual orientation toward persons of the same sex, as heterosexuality implies sexual orientation toward persons of the opposite sex. Homosexuality is also distinguished from bisexuality, which implies a sexual orientation toward both sexes.

I think the term orientation isn't clear enough to be encyclopedic. It carries the intended meaning that one can be "oriented" deterministically toward something, and that one thus has no responsibility to turn away from it. Or, no need to. It's used in such a way as to imply that there's nothing wrong with homosexuality.

 * The term sexual orientation is an open compound noun (see the article compound noun and adjective), which means that although the words have separate meanings by themselves, together they form a word having a special meaning. For example, a "giant panda" is an entirely different animal than a "red panda".

 * "Sexual orientation" is clearly defined in A Dictionary of Psychology (Oxford ISBN: 019860761X), and there is a comprehensive article on "sexual orientation" in The Oxford Companion to the Body (Oxford ISBN: 019852403X). The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy (Houghton-Mifflin), the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, and Encarta all contain specific definitions of "sexual orientation".  Furthermore, I found 25 references to "sexual orientation" in Encyclopedia Britannica, and 2 quotations in the Oxford English Dictionary.

 * Elsewhere, the term "sexual orientation" without further qualification is found in many anti-discrimination policies, including that of the University of California, and also appears in legal documents such as U.S. Supreme Court opinions. A 1992 Colorado initiative, which sought to assure that gays have no "special legal rights" (this was later overturned, see, Romer v. Evans), used the words "homosexual, lesbian or bisexual orientation, conduct, practices or relationships" as definitive.  Finally, the American Psychological Association maintains a public Web page entitled [Answers to Your Questions About Sexual Orientation and Homosexuality].  (Comparing that article to the current Homosexuality article does not flatter Wikipedia.)

 * The above sources provide documentation that "sexual orientation" is a standard term in common use. The word "orientation" was not used in this article unless it was part of "sexual orientation" (or "homosexual orientation", the usage and meaning of which can be similarly documented).

 * Now, consider the statement above:

 * [orientation] carries the intended meaning that one can be "oriented" deterministically toward something, and that one thus has no responsibility to turn away from it.

 * What is meant by "intended meaning?" By who is it intended?  And where does this "deterministic" connotation come from?  That aside, what is this notion of "responsibility to turn away from it?"  Responsibility implies an underlying moral, legal, or mental obligation; how is this derived from "orientation"?  This, however, is irrelevant.  Any personal associations someone might have with an accepted term like "sexual orientation" are biased by definition.  My understanding of Wikipedia is that above all, articles should be written without bias.

 * As for the rest of this:

 * Or, no need to. It's used in such a way as to imply that there's nothing wrong with homosexuality.

 * I disagree. The term "sexual orientation" is neutral, and does not imply that homosexuality is right or wrong--doing so would require a value judgement with respect to a particular system of morals or ethical standard.  Similiary the "need to" remark implies a moral or ethical obligation, which in turn requires an underlying moral or ethical system.  Establishing such a system, either implicitly or explicitly, violates the Neutral point of view mandate.

 * It would appear that the complaint is that the neutrality of the article does not specifically imply that there is something wrong with homosexuality. Why does the article now almost immediately call attention to "advocates who call homosexuality immoral?"  Uranographer 05:13, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Now, we all agreed that Wikipedia should neither endorse nor condemn homosexuality -- otherwise, we could never write an article about it!

Perhaps it would be helpful to distinguish amoung the three factors mentioned:
 * same-sex sexual behavior, a clumsy phrase meaning boy-on-boy or girl-on-girl sex.
 * sexual attraction -- hmm, have to check this out
 * romance -- not a very well-written article

Then there's also the controversy over how sharply one ought to distinguish between heterosexuality, bisexuality, and homosexuality. Is it a continuum, a spectrum? Are their clear bounds? Flexible bounds?

Above all, is homosexuality a matter of choice? Should it be? And is it anyone's business?

 * I don't understand this. Why is the notion of "choice" such an all-important concept?  It sounds to me like you have an axe to grind, Ed.

For us to write a definitive article, we dare not sweep any of this under the rug. And all assumptions need to be questioned. --Uncle Ed 18:36, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * Perhaps you're being overcritical. Wikipedia is not the place to decide (once and for all) appropriate terminology, especially for the real world. I think for many many people orientation is used not because it conveniently implies "its okay to be gay" but because it accurately describes the reality of unchanging sexual and romantic attraction. Any other word would not be any more 'pedic because of greater concreteness. This, of course, is not the real issue. These issues are easily dealt with by listing the variety of opinions and meanings, not by deciding once and for all if being gay is a choice. Also, I've noticed you continue to use the "homosexuality", please see: User:Hyacinth/Style guide.Hyacinth 19:00, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * PS, for my vote, homosexuality isn't a matter of choice, though it should be, and its not any more or less anyones business than much else.

[P0M:] I've already written a good bit on the Sexual Identity talk page that probably relates to Ed's questions here. As to "orientation" being too imprecise, or to its allegedly implying absolution from moral responsibility, I have to agree with Hyacinth. The image behind "orientation" seems to be a kind of sexual compass needle that points at possible sexual objects. People who condemn homosexuality seem to believe that one chooses to be gay, to believe that such a choice is a moral choice, and to believe that it is a blameful choice. Ordinarily, when one makes a strong claim of that sort, one is required to supply objective proof of a credible nature. To the best of my knowledge, few if any people have claimed/confessed that they simply decided to be attracted to people of the same sex, and many people have maintained that they discovered homosexual attraction within themselves and strove to "decide against it" to no avail. A friend of mine wears a strong perfume that, to me, smells like diesel fuel or perhaps song strong organic solvent. I cannot decide to like the odor, and she cannot decide to hate the odor as I do. Both of us can decide what we are going to do on the basis of our feelings. (Sorry, I don't see any problem with "homosexual". It's Latin-derived and means "same sex".) There has been a great deal of serious research into the subject of homosexuality, and it would be disrespectful and demeaning to the individuals who have spent their lifetimes trying to get an objective understanding on these matters to simply discount it.

[P0M:] What should our attitude be toward avaricious feelings? Can we advocate or condemn? Can we discuss the nature of these motivations? Can we give an objective account of their origins and note that it is how one behaves under the impact of these feelings that is moral or immoral?

[P0M:] I think the paragraph that Ed Poor removed should go back in. P0M 01:50, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

That is an excellent paragraph. Ed, you might want to read orientation as self-identified sexual identity. I'm pretty uncomfortable with a lot of your writing here - you seem to be wanting to write more about the attitudes of some religions to homosexuality than homosexuality itself. Perhaps that should be split into a clearly identified section of the article specifically about the views of various religions? Jamesday 21:04, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

title: Talk:Homosexuality/Archive 2


text:
Talk:HMS Dreadnought (1906)

Neutrality and formality of writing
This whole article reads like the dreadnought itself wrote its own Wikipedia article - full of inflated claims of importance unbacked.

It’s also informally written. The word “ironically” shouldn’t appear in a wiki article, and sentence structure devices like “In fact” also do not have a place in these articles. Someone needs to purge this article of this style of writing, and make it sound less like a story by your grandad all about his favourite ship 79.66.8.116 (talk) 21:15, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Feel free to WP:FIXIT. - w o lf  02:19, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Claims
It is stated that at 21 knots it was the world's fastest battleship. I find that difficult to believe. What speed did it achieve on trials? Is there an accurate source? the Austro-Hungarian navy had two classes of battleships at the time both achieving 20.5 knots in their sea trials. I have not examined the German navy. 2A00:23C4:B617:7D01:D52F:F40B:EDF:9DF2 (talk) 12:46, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * 21.6 knots average speed over 4 trials at the Polperro measured mile on 9 October 1906.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:23, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

My poor WP programming knowledge
Love the page... ThankYou! It needs work... slowly it will get there. Like when one clicks on an image, WP brings it up full screen with the description just bellow it. Like the "Hull longitudinal section" graphic, it comes up with each part well numbered. The "Port side engine room" graphic did not have the parts name. I was able to make them show up but they do not have their part identifications. FTLOM, I tried for an hour to have them show up but to no avail. It might have something to do with the fact the "Port side engine room" is set in a WikiTable. I tried.

Netweezurd (talk) 18:29, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Featured picture scheduled for POTD
Hello! This is to let editors know that File:HMS Dreadnought 1906 H61017.jpg, a featured picture used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for December 6, 2026. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2026-12-06. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page. Technically, it hasn't passed yet, but with seven supports and no opposes, it's basically guaranteed. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs. 12:52, 20 July 2024 (UTC) Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs. 12:52, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:HMS Dreadnought (1906)


text:
Rafael Márquez Lugo

Rafael Márquez Lugo (born 2 November 1981) is a Mexican sports analyst and former professional footballer who played as a forward.

Club Universidad Nacional
Márquez Lugo joined the Pumas UNAM youth academy when he was six years old. He made his debut in the Primera División on 10 September 2000 against Monterrey. Márquez Lugo played infrequently over the next two years, often as a substitute, making 38 appearances and scoring 9 goals.

Chiapas
On 23 November 2003 Jaguares de Chiapas announced they had signed Márquez to a three-year contract. Márquez only managed to score three goals in 28 appearances.

Morelia
In search of more playing time, he signed a three-year deal with Morelia in 2003. In the 2003 Clausura season, he scored seven goals in 13 appearances, and followed that with a team-leading 11 goals in 16 games during the Apertura 2004 season. In the Clausura 2005 season he scored 6 goals. Márquez's contract expired in 2007 and the club chose not to renew him despite his 34 goals in 96 appearances.

Pachuca
Márquez was transferred to Pachuca in 2007. Coach Enrique Meza chose to place him on the loan list after his poor season with the team, where he only managed to net 3 times.

Loan to UAG Tecos
On January 11, 2008, he was loaned to UAG Tecos for six months. After his stint at Tecos, Márquez was loaned to América.

Loan to Club América
Márquez Lugo was loaned to América for six months. He scored 2 goals in 9 appearances

Atlante
Atlante F.C. announced they had signed Márquez Lugo for the Clausura 2009 season. Márquez Lugo scored 14 goals during his time with "Los Potros".

Return to Monarcas
In 2010, Márquez Lugo returned to Morelia. In his first season, he scored two goals with the club. His return debut goal was scored in a 6–0 victory against Querétaro. His second goal of the season came in a 1–0 home win against Club Necaxa.

In the 2011 Clausura season, Marquez Lugo was a regular starter for Morelia. His first goal of the season against C.D. Guadalajara. It was the equalizer in the 1–1 tie. His second goal came in the very next match against Querétaro. The game ended in a 3–0 away victory. His third goal of the season came against América in the 2–1 away victory. On the 6 of March 2011, he scored a hat-trick for the first time in his career. It came in the 6–1 away victory against Toluca. With this hat-trick he reached 6 goals. On 19 March 2011 he made his seventh goal of the tournament against Santos Laguna in a 1–0 away win for Morelia. His eighth goal of the tournament came on the 9 of April against Cruz Azul. He scored the 1–1 draw for Morelia in an eventual 3–2 away win. On April 12 against Jaguares he scored his ninth goal. He scored the equalizer and eventually Monarcas Morelia won 2–1. He scored the first goal of the Clausura 2012 against Club Tijuana. His performances earned him a call-up to the Selección de fútbol de México (Mexico national football team). After playing the best football of his career with Morelia, C.D. Guadalajara announced that they had reached an agreement to sign him.

C.D. Guadalajara
On June 6, 2012, it was announced that C.D. Guadalajara purchased him as their second signing of the transfer window. On July 22, 2012, he made his first official appearance with Guadalajara during an away game against Club Toluca. He netted his first goal during his first appearance in a 2–1 loss. On September 14, 2012, on a visit to Club León, he scored a goal, giving Guadalajara their second win of the season. He led Guadalajara with seven goals in the 2012 Apertura season. In November 2012, the club announced Márquez Lugo was going to have surgery on his left knee after suffering an injury and he was ruled out of action for 3 months. After his return from injury, Márquez Lugo once again led the club's scoring sheet by scoring 14 more goals in all of 2013. In March 2014, Guadalajara had announced that Márquez Lugo had injured the same left knee. He was successfully operated on April 1 and was expected to return in 3–4 months. During physical therapy Márquez Lugo complained that the pain would not alleviate and after further examination from the club doctor, Dr. Rafael Ortega, it was announced that he needed to have a cartilage transplant. Surgery was performed on 19 August 2014 and Dr. Ortega informed the public that Márquez Lugo would be ruled out of action for approximately 6 months. Márquez Lugo's recovery was taking longer than the doctor expected, and his knee was not improving.

On April 22, 2015, during a news interview with TDN Deportes, Márquez Lugo announced his retirement from play after three surgeries and a year-long battle he had failed to win against his knee injury.

International career
Márquez Lugo made numerous appearances for Mexico youth national teams, including the U-20 and U-23 levels. He appeared in the 2004 Summer Olympics with the Under-23 squad. He has also was called up by Ricardo Lavolpe to play for the Mexico national football team, which included call-ups to the 2005 FIFA Confederations Cup and the 2005 CONCACAF Gold Cup. Márquez Lugo was announced as one of the 3 over-aged players named to the U-22 team that represented Mexico in the 2011 Copa América. Márquez Lugo appeared in all three of Mexico's matches before they were eliminated.

Internationals goals
!scope=row|1
 * January 25, 2012 || Reliant Stadium, Houston, United States || 🇻🇪 venezuela || align=center|2–1 || align=center|3–1 || Friendly
 * }

Personal life
Márquez Lugo is married to Mexican television personality, actor, and beauty pageant Marisol González who was part of the 2003 Miss Universe and winner of the 2002 Nuestra Belleza México. Márquez Lugo and González have two daughters together and have been married since 2014.

Honours
Pachuca
 * North American SuperLiga: 2007

Atlante
 * CONCACAF Champions League: 2008–09

Morelia
 * North American SuperLiga: 2010

Mexico U23
 * CONCACAF Olympic Qualifying Championship: 2004

Individual
 * Best Striker of the tournament: Clausura 2011

title: Rafael Márquez Lugo


text:
Valid time

In temporal databases, valid-time is the time period when an event happened or something was true in the real world, or more formally when a fact was valid in the modeled reality.

The valid-time period is an interval based on event times, which are referred to as event datetime in data vault. Other names are application-time period or real-world timeline. SQL:2011 supports valid time through so-called application time-period tables. In a database table, valid-time is often represented by two extra table-columns, such as  and. The time interval is closed at its lower bound (denoted by ) and open at its upper bound (denoted by  ).

In integration layers (for example a data warehouse), the valid time is controlled by the source system which delivers data to the data warehouse. For many reasons, the valid timeline is different from the transaction timeline (which is when data arrives in the warehouse), and it is important that the data warehouse is capable of unambiguously reporting what actually happened in the past by combining these two timelines. In bitemporal data models, valid time and transaction time can be represented two-dimensionally in a Cartesian coordinate system. When data are delivered from the integration layer and is to be represented in a presentation layer (often in a dimensional model or wide table) it is often desirable to have the data on only one timeline.

History
The term valid time was coined by Richard T. Snodgrass and his doctoral student (1986).

As of December 2011, ISO/IEC 9075, Database Language SQL:2011 Part 2: SQL/Foundation included clauses in table definitions to define "application-time period tables" (that is, valid-time tables).

Example
Valid time is the time for which a fact is true in the real world. In the example above, the Person table gets two extra fields,  and , specifying when a person's address was valid in the real world. On 1975-04-04, John's father proudly registered his son's birth. An official will then insert a new entry to the database stating that John lives in Smallville from April, 3rd. Notice that although the data was inserted on the 4th, the database states that the information is valid since the 3rd. The official does not yet know if or when John will ever move to another place so in the database the  is filled with infinity (∞) or a very late date (like for example 2300-01-01). Resulting in this entry in the database:

On 1994-12-27 John reports his new address in Bigtown where he has been living since 1994-08-26. The Bigtown official does not change the address of the current entry of John Doe in the database. He adds a new one:

The original entry Person (John Doe, Smallville, 1975-04-03, ∞) is then updated (not removed!). Since it is now known that John stopped living in Smallville on 1994-08-26, the  entry can be filled in. The database now contains two entries for John Doe

When John dies the database is once more updated. The current entry will be updated stating the date of death as the last  for Bigtown, as John does not live in Bigtown any longer. No new entry is being added. The database now looks like this:

title: Valid time


text:
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Music of Nigeria/archive2

Music of Nigeria
Shaikh This was nominated recently, but didn't pass. I've made some changes, as much as I can. I can't find any photos releasable on the 'pedia, but it has two fair use album covers. There were also two comments about the lack of technical details regarding rhythm and Afrobeat. I have added a bit on both topics, but neither are particularly distinct to Nigeria. Aside from the Kutis, I think Afrobeat is more or less an English speaking West African thing, and not a specifically Nigerian thing. The same issue applies to complex rhythms, the details of which would be more appropriate at music of Africa than music of Nigeria. In any case, there is substantial info on both topics here. Here's the old nomination. Tuf-Kat 18:53, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)
 * Support. Looks well written, though I cannot comment more on the material itself. The only thing is the very large number of red links leads me to believe there are many that are redlinked, but may not really be notable enough for their own article. I could be wrong, but consider unlinking some/many. - Taxman 03:50, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)
 * I removed a couple of the summary style links, but none of the links in the body. While I'm certainly no expert on Nigerian music, I think all these subjects deserve articles (certainly topics of comparable importance in American or British music, or even Swedish or Japanese music, already have articles).  The red-links are unattractive, but may entice casual users to write articles. Tuf-Kat 01:12, Dec 28, 2004 (UTC)
 * Object. Good article, but there's still a few problems. It links summary style to articles that don't exist. The lead could do with a bit of work (as an example, the lead sentence basically describes the music of Nigeria as being only folk music). There's some strange formatting in the instruments section, and it could do with a general copyedit. There's also some POV problems - quite a bit of the history reads like someone's opinion. The red links, however, are IMO completely forgivable - systemic bias issues comes with the territory. Ambi 12:38, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Changed first sentence. The instrument formatting was normal, but someone changed it during the last nomination.  I thought that was maybe preferred, so I didn't revert, but have changed it back now -- the only benefit of the old way was shortening the ToC.  I did a general copyedit, including toning down some possibly POV parts.  I'll see if I can fill in some of the summary-style links. Tuf-Kat 22:55, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)
 * Removed some summary links that aren't typically used in this way on "music of" articles (e.g. Nigerian musical instruments) and filled in one, on apala. The remaining that aren't written are yo-pop, Nigerian reggae, waka music and afro-juju; these are all relatively minor and recent subjects, so I don't think represent major holes.  Also, I can't find much info that isn't already in the article.  Is this better? Tuf-Kat
 * It's much improved after the copyedit, but I still think the lead section is a bit convoluted, and there's still quite a few instances of odd wording (i.e. Among the Igbo people, Ghanaian highlife became popular in the early 1950s). There's also some statements that are just crying out for a source. The summary links are much better now, too.Ambi 04:52, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Object, particularly based on lead section's second paragraph. "Like almost all African music" is weasel-wordy and saying that "all" Nigerian music uses polyrhythms is too categorical unless you've got sources to back it up. In general, it's a sign that this part needs to be rewritten. Also, the discussion of rhythmic techniques needs to have a better understanding of its terminology; the stress on weak beats mentioned as "rhythmic displacement" is in fact the textbook example of syncopation, which is also cited separately using a slightly different and awkwardly worded example. --Michael Snow 06:31, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Changed this paragraph, and have cited two bits. Tuf-Kat 04:06, Dec 31, 2004 (UTC)
 * Object (sorry, didn't realise this was on WP:PR and FAC. Once the following are fixed, I'm most happy to give an enthusiastic support!
 * In the lead section it says: "pan-West African development of highlife and palm-wine music" - what does "pan-West" mean?
 * In "Hausa" you have the word "complexly". Is that a word? :P
 * What are "Praise singers"? I'm not familiar with that term... - Ta bu shi da yu 05:29, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)


text:
User:Jesse Ruderman

I am a first-year Computer Science Ph.D. student at UCSD CSE. My academic interests include software security (especially as it relates to human-computer interaction and programming language design) and computational complexity.

I spend most of my free time contributing to Firefox and making trouble. My blog is http://www.squarefree.com/. Many of my bookmarks are public. My LJ userinfo page includes a list of my interests.

User:Jruderman is the same person. User:Jesse Ruderman is an older account, no longer used.

title: User:Jesse Ruderman


text:
Marton, New Zealand

Marton (Tutaenui) is a town in the Rangitikei district of the Manawatū-Whanganui region of New Zealand's North Island. It is situated 35 kilometres southeast of Whanganui and 40 kilometres northwest of Palmerston North.

Ngāti Apa are tangata whenua for the Marton area.

The town of Marton is the largest in the Rangitikei district, and began life as a private township in 1866, when shop and housing sections were sold at auction by local landowners.

The town had residents as of

Marton has always been a service town for the fertile farming lands of the lower Rangitikei Rivers flood plains. Butter, wool, and flour have been among its agricultural products. The arrival of the railway in 1878 led to rapid growth in the area, which soon added industries such as engineering, sawmilling, and textile production to its economy.

History
For three years the small village was known as Tutaenui, named after the stream running through its centre. In 1869 local citizens changed the name to Marton to honour the birthplace of Captain James Cook in Middlesbrough, marking his landing in New Zealand exactly 100 years earlier. It is not known if this change of name was influenced by the mistranslation of 'tutae' (meaning 'dung') and 'nui' (meaning 'large'). (Actual translation: 'tu' -stand, 'tae' -arrive, 'nui' big; i.e., a 'big gathering').

From the start Marton was an ideal supply centre for district farmers, who first began arriving in the early 1850s. From butter and wool they moved on to growing wheat in 1863, and big crops led to three flourmills being launched in the area in 1864.

After the town itself opened up in 1866, general stores, two hotels and several blacksmiths soon started. Marton became a home base for the horse industry, with saddlers, wheelwrights, livery stables and coachbuilders competing for business, while Clydesdale and Suffolk Punch sires toured the district to build up the population of plough horses needed as new farms sprang into being. The opening of the railway line joining Wanganui to Palmerston North in 1878, now part of the North Island Main Trunk railway (towards Palmerston North and Auckland) and the Marton - New Plymouth Line (towards Wanganui), turned Marton Railway Station into a thriving railway junction, and it held that position for the next 100 years. The move of the railway station in 1898 was followed by a large development of 'Marton Extension', to the south east, from 1907.

Timber from Rangitikei forests served the town's two timbermills, the first from 1889 onwards.

Industry developed quietly at first in Marton, starting with flourmilling, brickmaking and wool presses. By the late 1950s there was an incredible array of industries and factories in action. They turned out products as diverse as men's shirts, tractor safety cabs, soft drinks, vegetable salads, readymix concrete, field tiles, dog biscuits, knitwear, dried peas, electronic petrol pumps, vegetable digging machinery.

9 km from Marton was the large Lake Alice Hospital for psychiatric patients, which opened in 1950 and closed in 1999. It included a maximum security unit, and housed hundreds of patients during its 49 years of operation.

Newspapers
Marton’s first newspaper, the Rangitikei Advocate and Manawatu Argus, was started in 1875, with Alexander McMinn as editor. From 1891 to 1896 there was also the Mercury, published by Francis Arkwright. From 1903 to 1905 the Rangitikei Advocate was associated with the Farmers’ Advocate, a weekly published in Marton that was the official voice of the newly formed New Zealand Farmers’ Union. The Rangitikei Advocate closed on 1 February 1941. The weekly Rangitikei News ran from 1948 to 1955. It was replaced by the Rangitikei Mail. Feilding-Rangitīkei Herald now serves the area.

Climate
Marton's climate is temperate and has few extremes compared to many parts of New Zealand. Summers are warm with average temperatures in the low 20s. The most settled weather occurs in summer and early autumn. Winters are mild and annual rainfall is moderate. Annual hours of bright sunshine can average over 2,000.

Demographics
Marton covers 10.99 km2 and had an estimated population of as of  with a population density of  people per km2.

Before the 2023 census, Marton had a larger boundary, covering 13.59 km2. Using that boundary, Marton had a population of 5,268 at the 2018 New Zealand census, an increase of 474 people (9.9%) since the 2013 census, and an increase of 336 people (6.8%) since the 2006 census. There were 2,037 households, comprising 2,571 males and 2,697 females, giving a sex ratio of 0.95 males per female, with 1,047 people (19.9%) aged under 15 years, 864 (16.4%) aged 15 to 29, 2,112 (40.1%) aged 30 to 64, and 1,245 (23.6%) aged 65 or older.

Ethnicities were 75.9% European/Pākehā, 23.7% Māori, 9.9% Pacific peoples, 2.6% Asian, and 1.5% other ethnicities. People may identify with more than one ethnicity.

The percentage of people born overseas was 16.1, compared with 27.1% nationally.

Although some people chose not to answer the census's question about religious affiliation, 42.5% had no religion, 42.2% were Christian, 3.2% had Māori religious beliefs, 0.3% were Hindu, 0.3% were Muslim, 0.2% were Buddhist and 1.3% had other religions.

Of those at least 15 years old, 411 (9.7%) people had a bachelor's or higher degree, and 1,212 (28.7%) people had no formal qualifications. 285 people (6.8%) earned over $70,000 compared to 17.2% nationally. The employment status of those at least 15 was that 1,641 (38.9%) people were employed full-time, 609 (14.4%) were part-time, and 183 (4.3%) were unemployed.

Rural surrounds
Marton Rural covers 194.35 km2 and had an estimated population of as of  with a population density of  people per km2.

Before the 2023 census, Marton Rural had a larger boundary, covering 192.56 km2. Using that boundary, Marton Rural had a population of 987 at the 2018 New Zealand census, an increase of 24 people (2.5%) since the 2013 census, and an increase of 63 people (6.8%) since the 2006 census. There were 381 households, comprising 507 males and 480 females, giving a sex ratio of 1.06 males per female. The median age was 45.4 years (compared with 37.4 years nationally), with 192 people (19.5%) aged under 15 years, 120 (12.2%) aged 15 to 29, 483 (48.9%) aged 30 to 64, and 189 (19.1%) aged 65 or older.

Ethnicities were 94.2% European/Pākehā, 8.8% Māori, 2.7% Pacific peoples, 0.6% Asian, and 0.6% other ethnicities. People may identify with more than one ethnicity.

The percentage of people born overseas was 9.1, compared with 27.1% nationally.

Although some people chose not to answer the census's question about religious affiliation, 45.6% had no religion, 43.2% were Christian, 1.5% had Māori religious beliefs, 0.3% were Hindu and 0.9% had other religions.

Of those at least 15 years old, 126 (15.8%) people had a bachelor's or higher degree, and 147 (18.5%) people had no formal qualifications. The median income was $34,500, compared with $31,800 nationally. 132 people (16.6%) earned over $70,000 compared to 17.2% nationally. The employment status of those at least 15 was that 435 (54.7%) people were employed full-time, 147 (18.5%) were part-time, and 18 (2.3%) were unemployed.

Local government

The current Mayor of the Rangitikei District is Andy Watson.

National government
Marton is located in the general electorate of Rangitīkei and in the Māori electorate of Te Tai Hauāuru. Rangitīkei is a safe National Party seat since the 1938 election with the exception of 1978–1984 when it was held by Bruce Beetham of the Social Credit Party. Since 2023 it is held by Suze Redmayne.

Te Tai Hauāuru is a more volatile seat, having been held by three different parties since 1996, i.e. New Zealand First, the Māori Party and the Labour Party. Since 2023 it is held by Debbie Ngarewa-Packer of Te Pāti Māori.

Sports
Marton has four sports clubs: Marton Cricket Club, Marton Rugby and Sports Club, Marton Bears Rugby League Club and Marton United AFC.

Transport
State Highway 1 passes 4 km east of Marton, whie State Highway 3 passes 7 km to the south.

The nearest airports to the town are Whanganui Airport, located 37 km west, and Palmerston North Airport, located 44 km southeast. Both airports are domestic only.

Marton is on the North Island Main Trunk Line; and on the Marton-New Plymouth Line which leaves the NIMT at Marton. However although the Overlander on the NIMT used to stop at Marton railway station, the replacement Northern Explorer introduced in 2012 has fewer stops and does not stop at Marton.

Education
Marton has four co-educational state primary schools for Year 1 to 8 students: Marton School, with a roll of ; Marton Junction School, with a roll of ; James Cook School, with a roll of ; and South Makirikiri School, with a roll of ,

There are also two other primary schools. St Matthew's School is a state-integrated Catholic primary school, with a roll of. Huntley School is a private Anglican boarding school, with a roll of.

Rangitikei College is a co-educational state primary school, with a roll of.

Nga Tawa Diocesan School is a state-integrated girls' boarding school for Year 9 to 13 students, with a roll of.

Until 2016 there was a third secondary school, Turakina Māori Girls' College.

Notable people

 * Francis Arkwright, politician
 * Bruce Beetham, Social Credit politician
 * Iris Crooke, nurse, Florence Nightingale Medal, Volunteer
 * Israel Dagg, All Black
 * Sir Michael Fowler, architect, Mayor of Wellington
 * James Laurenson, actor
 * Kaleb Ngatoa, motor racing driver
 * Launcelot Eric Richdale, ornithologist
 * Norman Shelton, National MP

title: Marton, New Zealand


text:
Transaction time

In temporal databases, transaction time is the time when some data has been loaded into a database. The time when a transaction is valid can be called the transaction time-period. It is a technical timeline controlled by a integration layer (for example a data warehouse). More formally, it is the point-in-time during which a fact stored in the database is considered to be true.

The period is an interval based on load times (called load datetime in data vault ), also called inscription timestamp. Other names of the interval is assertion timeline ), state timeline ) or technical timeline. SQL:2011 has support for transaction time through so-called system-versioned tables.

For many reasons, transaction time (when data arrives from a source system) is almost always different from valid time (when the event happened in the real world). For a data warehouse to unambiguously report what actually happened in the past it must be able to combine these two timelines. In bitemporal data models, valid-time and transaction time can be represented two-dimensionally in a Cartesian coordinate system. When data is delivered from the integration layer and is to be presented in a presentation layer (often in a dimensional model or wide table) it is often desirable to have the data on only one timeline.

In a database table, the transaction time is often represented as an interval allowing the system to "remove" entries by using two table-columns  and. The time interval is closed  at its lower bound and open   at its upper bound. When the ending transaction time is unknown, it may be considered as. Academic researchers and some relational database management systems (RDBMS) have represented  with the largest timestamp supported or the keyword. This convention is a technical workaround, and not technically precise.

History
The term transaction time was coined by Richard T. Snodgrass and his doctoral student Ilsoo Ahn (1986).

As of December 2011, ISO/IEC 9075, Database Language SQL:2011 Part 2: SQL/Foundation included clauses in table definitions to define "system-versioned tables" (that is, transaction-time tables).

title: Transaction time


text:
Talk:Homosexuality/Archive 3

Choice
Patrick wrote:

 * People who condemn homosexuality seem to believe that one chooses to be gay, to believe that such a choice is a moral choice, and to believe that it is a blameful choice.

I spent 20 minutes googling to find even ONE reference to a Christian or psychologist claiming that homosexuals "choose to be gay". I couldn't find any. It looks like a straw man argument. As in:

 * How about references to things like, "They convinced my kid to turn gay!" P0M 19:30, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * They say we choose to be gay and that therefore blah, blah, blah; but the truth of the matter is that we didn't choose; so none of that BLAH stuff holds water.

Perhaps this is why the sexual identity issue is so important, and also why Wikipedians keep insisting on distingushing between "homosexuality" (the attraction, the romance -- anything but the behavior) and "homosexual behavior".

But an encyclopedia article should not exist for the purpose of helping one side win a debate. It should be accurate and neutral.

I think we can all agree that desire and behavior are distinct. Related, of course, but distinct.
 * "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride."
 * "I want to be the president."
 * "I hope you choke."
 * "I oughta wring your neck."
 * "I'd like to get into her pants."

All of the wishes expressed above are ordinarily considered distinct from the acts they mention. Wishing to be the president does not make the Secret Service give me access to the Oval Office and the nuclear football. Wishing that someone will die does not cause him to die (unless you have magic powers!) Expressing hostile feelings for someone is not identical to killing him; and usually, is not even considered a "threat" (but check with your lawyer before e-mailing Bush or Kerry!). Wanting to have sex with someone is not the same as actually doing so. --Uncle Ed 13:14, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * Are you seriously saying you've never heard the argument that homosexuality is a choice??? If it's not explicit it's quite often implicitly at the root of arguments against homosexuality/same-sex marriage, etc, etc.  Exploding Boy 13:46, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)

No, I'm saying that I could not find anyone who made the argument that homosexuals "choose to be gay" -- only those who "knock it down". It all hinges on what it means to "be gay".

My church asserts that every human action is a matter of choice. It evaluates some of these matters of choice as being more important than others: no one cares whether you select chocolate or vanilla ice cream. We do care whether a married man remains faithful or cheats on his wife (just to pick a dramatic case).

One of the essential elements in many religions, particularly Judaism, Christianity and Islam is the faculty of choice or will. Fasting, a practice common to all 3 of these religions, has as its one of its purposes the aim of strengthening one's will. One denies (temporarily) his desire to consume food, enduring the feeling of hunger -- not because eating is good or bad in itself, but because praticing self-denial in such a matter increases one's ability to make wise choices in other matters. --Uncle Ed 14:09, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * Sorry, I've not been a part of this discussion really so I'm not sure what's really going on (though your post seems a little contradictory). I'm going to leave it at that for a while. Exploding Boy 14:18, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)

 * If you meant that my post contradicts what others have posted, I agree! :-) Anyway, you inspired me to do some more on-line searching and I created Homosexuality is a choice. It's no longer a stub, so please don't delete it. Come and help make it better, please!! --Uncle Ed 15:03, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[P0M:] The article title you have created prejudges the issue. "Is homosexuality a choice?" would be less problematical.

[P0M:] Back to the earlier discussion, there is, of course, the problem of definition that is seen in many other contexts, e.g., Jones kills Smith (for whatever reason). Under one definition, Jones is a killer. Under another definition, Jones is a sheriff who killed Smith in the line of duty. Usually, when people are assigning blame or accusing someone of having committed a sin, the question of desire and intent is in the forefront. We are not afraid of great uncle Willie who shot thirteen men in the Korean War. We are afraid of the thug who tried to kill the candy store proprietor and missed. Actually, in both cases the prudent person would want to know the motivation for the act. Maybe great uncle Willie is a psychopath who really got off on killing every Chinese and Korean he ever killed.

[P0M:] Most people are concerned about homosexual behavior because they don't understand it and feel threatened by it. The same people probably do not get upset by the idea of people eating cheeseburgers, even if, like myself, they hate cheeseburgers. They may not even get upset about people killing dolphins, whales, chimpanzees, etc. So having an objective understanding of the phenomenon may help some people behave in a rational rather than a fearful or hateful manner. (I suspect that there is a significant reason why St. Augustine counseled us to hate the sin but not the sinner, and why the placards say, "God hates faggots!" and not "God hates faggotry!")

[P0M:] I said earlier:
 * [P0M:]The issue of People who condemn homosexuality seem to believe that one chooses to be gay, to believe that such a choice is a moral choice, and to believe that it is a blameful choice.

[P0M:] I said that because one cannot be blamed for involuntary acts or desires, yet people are regularly assailed for "being homosexual" (or less kindly words to that effect) in the absence of any evidence of sexual behavior. One of my acquaitances is a Christian minister, married, and with children. He is strikingly handsome -- and deaf in one ear because he was beaten by somebody who didn't know anything else about him for "being gay." Was that assault premised on "what he did" or on "what he was?" I somehow doubt that realization on the part of his assailants that they had no specific information on when and how he chose to manifest his alleged "gayness" would have stayed their hands.

[P0M:] What somebody characteristically does may become my business if that person sticks something in my face or assaults one of my friends, but it is not my business what somebody else desires to do, nor is it my business what other people choose freely to do among themselves. It may be God's business, but he is big enough not to need my help as his "enforcer."

[P0M:] If real behavior occurs that affects the community, then the community may decide to intervene. The community can make laws, and it can inflict lesser social penalties. But in a just society the community will inform itself on what is really going on -- the motives, the actions, the consequences all are relevant.

[P0M:] Does society have any right to say to a person that he or she must form love relationships only with people of the opposite sex? God can do that, I guess. That certainly is what some people claim God has done. But, on their own, do I and the members of my community have any right (other than "might makes right") to tell an individual that s/he may not, e.g., make brick ovens with the cross-section of a heptagram?

[P0M:] Society does have a right to insist that people not eat the brains of cattle, I think, and the reason is not that members of the society find the practice repugnant, but that they realize that harm may come to people who do so, that disease may spread to other members of the community, and that the community as a whole will have to expend resources to clean up the consequences. But in such cases there must be a clear finding of harm to the individual and harm to the community.

[P0M:] Lest you think that I am a complete liberal nut case, let me also point out that there is a fundamental ethical quandry involved in all that I have just said. It is one thing to say that two people were born gay and that society has no call to interfere with their expressions of love for each other. It is not so easy to say that because someone is born without the normal affection that humans feel for each other, and instead is born with an intense antipathy toward all humans, he or she should therefore be free to injure or kill other humans. Even if God knitted him or her in the womb into just such a form, other people still have a right to protect themselves against this quasi-human individual.

[P0M:] In sum, I think Ed Poor may be right in saying that few if any people will openly state as a premise that some people are born straight and make a decision to act gay. I think that it is also unlikely that many people will openly state that some people are born gay but ought to be cut off from any possibility of finding happiness by making actual the potentials for love and erotic interaction that are innately present to them. Either way, it becomes difficult to maintain a rationalization for antipathy toward gay people.

[P0M:] If we look at the way people behave, it seems to me that some people feel great repugnance toward homosexual activity and wish to categorize it as a sin, an abomination, or at least a psychological abnormality. They typically are not mollified if they receive assurances that no actual behavior has occurred. It is a classic case of "ignorance and fear." Another large group of people looks at the emotions that are displayed between gay people, hears about the various kinds of sexual behavior that gay people engage in, and they are genuinely baffled. They cannot understand why other people can behave in a way that seems very much to go against the grain with them. Then they hear accusations of some gay person having "subverted the morals" of a presumably straight person, and they are moved by the fear that rationalization and conditioning may "make a person turn gay". This, too, is a case of "ignorance and fear" or perhaps just "ignorance and trepidation."

[P0M:] I believe that it is very useful to those people who would like to make objective decision regarding social policy if they can avail themselves of reliable information regarding how people come to form a lifelong preference for either heterosexual or homosexual activity, or form a preference for avoiding all erotic interaction, or have no preference... If we start out examining these questions as though they were all rationalizations in the service of some devious and immoral plot, then I think we will not make good progress. P0M 19:26, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * Spoken in the true Wikipedian spirit. (Can I nominate a talk page comment for brilliant prose? --Uncle Ed 20:38, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * Thank you for the kind words. P0M 03:06, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[Ed:] Uranographer's literary deconstruction of the usage of "sexual orientation" misses the point.

[Ed:] The terms sexual preference and sexual orientation have 2 different meanings. Until recently they were each discussed in separate articles; then, someone merged the two articles. The reason for having distinct terms is to express variations, subtle or otherwise, between concepts. "Preference" connotes conscious, mutable desire. I prefer pizza tonight. Tomorrow I might prefer lobster. I might even decide to develop a taste for caviar. "Orientation" connotes inherent, immutable desire.

 * [U:] So, because there were once two separate articles in this venue the terms necessarily express different concepts? I do not see this distinction as clearly as you apparently do.  I have no doubt that these words "preference" and "orientation" have these connotations to you, but I beg to differ.  I have looked in several dictionaries and have yet to find any definition that suggests there is anything "immutable" about "orientation".  In fact, "reorientation" is a word of it's own.  Can you explain how something that is "immutable" can be changed?  Doubtlessly you will reject this as "deconstruction", but I ask you to  provide an authoritative reference that substatiates these connotations which you claim to be universal.

[Ed:] Gay rights activists use the term sexual orientation as part of their campaign to convince people that gay sex results from an immutable desire, one which is just as valid and precious and worthy as heterosexual desire.

 * [U:] Are you suggesting that the term "sexual orientation", which is in such widespread use, is all the result of a conspiracy of gay activists? If not, then are all the sources I cited above just fundamentally misguided, and it is somehow incumbent upon "us", or more specifically, you, to guide them to the truth?

[Ed:] The Wikipedia should be accurate, and I'm sure no one in this part of the discussion wants inaccuracy. But it should also be neutral, which means that the article must not endorse the point of view that homosexual desires are inherent or immutable. That POV might be common, it might even be the majority view of Wikipedians (or even of the Western English-speaking world), but it is not a fact. It's just someone's opinion.

 * [U:] Fine, the article should not endorse the point of view that sexuality is "immutable". I don't think it does.  The only argument you have provided to the contrary comes from your statement "orientation connotes inherent, immutable desire" which you have not supported.  Have you even consulted a dictionary on the meaning of "orientation"?  I agree that "preference" implies there is a distinct if not capricious choice.  I also contend that the term "sexual preference" endorses the "POV" that homosexual behavior is such a choice, and this also is not a fact.  I venture to say that this is the reason that the term has largely been deprecated in favor of the more neutral sexual orientation, and if gay activists had any part in it, it is because of its neutrality.

[Ed:] Let's not play the "deconstruction game". It's amusing, but ultimately distracting. Let's return to our core values. Let's write all the homosexuality-related articles at Wikipedia from the Neutral Point of View.

 * [U:] I am not deconstructing; I am in search of precise, explicit definitions rather than vague notions of meaning. That is the very definition of "definitive".  Is this not one of "our core values"?  I think that the only distraction here is your use of this gay activist conspiricy theory to distract from an objective, scientific, neutral, and unbiased exposition of the subject of homosexuality.

 * [U:] I do not endorse the notion that homosexuality is innate, and I would oppose Wikipedia's endorement of this position. At the same time I oppose the use of Wikipedia to promulgate tan opinion that sexual orientation is merely "a choice"--and this I think is a reasonably accurate summary of your recent edits.Uranographer 13:40, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

If we commit to doing this, than we can neither endorse nor condemn the POV that homosexuality is innate, inherent or immutable. --Uncle Ed 12:21, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * Just a reminder to everyone to sign their posts by placing four tildas ( ~ ) after your comments. Exploding Boy 13:47, Apr 7, 2004 (UTC)

 * I placed "Ed" and "U" labels as requested. --Uncle Ed 13:56, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * [P0M] Thanks, Ed. Some of the earlier postings are hard to follow because it's hard to tell who is talking to whom.

[P0M:] Homosexuality is a phenomenon that arouses strong feelings on the part of many people. It would be most helpful if we could summarize in objective language what has been learned about the subject thusfar. It might also be helpful to survey the wide range of theoretical positions that have been taken on this subject. For instance, some people believe that the selection of sexual objects that one grows up to seek avidly is entirely a matter of social learning. Some people believe that the selection of sexual objects that one normally grows up to seek avidly is a matter of chromosomal sex, and that if an XX person choses XX people as sexual objects then something must have gone wrong somewhere. These are beliefs or "points of view", and many people hold very strong beliefs on these subjects without the benefit of much evidence. One of the interesting things that can be seen by following the life work of John Money is that he started out (on the basis of many case studies) with the belief that one's identity, as regards "who one is" sexually, was entirely a matter of social conditioning. He had in mind the cases of many people who were chromosomally of one sex but whose external genitalia had convinced parents and community that they belonged to the other sex. It seemed to make no difference to be beautiful young woman, for instance, that she was chromosomally XY. But later on in his career he adopted a much more nuanced view -- again being driven to his conclusions by clinical experience.

[P0M:] There are a fairly large number of factors implicated in the development of an individual's sexuality. The trouble is that in some cases it may be difficult to tell the relative importance of the several factors.

[P0M:] There is clear evidence to show that some genetic features have a bearing on the sexuality of some individuals. If a certain genetic abnormality causes a condition called androgen insensitivity, then the body of an XY individual with this genetic abnormality will develop as a female because the body cannot be masculinized (and a female body is the "default" configuration).

[P0M:] There is clear evidence to show that some environmental factors in the womb can cause masculinization of an XX individual. Some women who are bearing XX fetuses are also suffering from a cancer of the cells that produce the relatively small amount of testosterone present in all normal women, so these mother-to-be have abnormally high testosterone levels in their blood and the hormone is transfered to the XX embryo -- which becomes masculinized. A similar kind of thing happens fairly frequently in normal cows that carry one male and one female embryo. The resultant heifer can become a freemartin, and will grow up to try to mount cows.

[P0M:] What happens after birth is harder to trace out, but cross-cultural studies indicate that what is normal and ordinary in one society is not necessarily normal and ordinary in some other society. Most people seem to me to be clearly concerned by the idea that learning will "queer" a person, and some people believe that it is possible to teach a person how to establish a pattern of heterosexual behavior. What seems fairly clear is that the older the individual concerned the less likely it becomes that there will be a fundamental change. The most common "late term" changes seem to occur in people who have been repressing their strongest sexual impulses and either sublimating them or satisfying themselves with sexual interactions with people who are socially approved but personally less attractive. (I am thinking of the individuals who live a heterosexual life until their children go off to college and then abandon their previous heterosexual lifestyle.) As far as I know, it is very rare for an ndividual who has had a strong heterosexual identity to suddenly change in mid life.

[P0M:] None of the motivations described or implied above seem to me to be matters of morality, but frequently people seem to me to blame others for having the "wrong" sexual desires. To me, the issue of morality relates to the question of how one acts out one's motivations in the social world. There is nothing either moral or immoral about liking to eat apples. The moral issues come at the point where I have to decide whether to steal my neighbor's apples, where I have to choose whether to share my apples with my starving mother, etc.

[P0M:] Biology teachers tell me that humans all have an inbuilt bias toward fats and sugars, the reason being that in the hundreds of thousands of years of evolution that occured before humans became civilized and well fed it was important to their survival that they gobbled up all the high calory stuff they could find. It might make them fat for the summer, but they would need the fat to get through the winter. Humans also have favorite flavors of foods. Some people like wintergreen candy. I will eat it if nothing else is available, but I would rather have just about any other kind of candy. My mother loved the smell of ether that wafted through the halls of every hospital in the 50s. I rank the smell only slightly above the odor of skunk. I suppose that a group of people might adopt a convention according to which the first class of motivtions would be called an "orientation," and the second would be called a "preference," but I don't think our society has narrowed the definition of either word to that degree.

[P0M:] The really interesting question to me is whether one can influence one's own preferences. That seems to happen in some cases. I hated beer until one summer vacation on a small, hot island in the Pacific. But I haven't been able to get myself to like vegetables like brussels sprouts, brocolli, cabage, etc. -- all things that are supposed to be very good for one's health but which taste bitter and unpleasant to me. I've read that some humans have taste buds that react more strongly to the bitter qualities of those vegetables, and I seem to be one of them. I might develop a taste for Tibetan music, but I think I could never learn to like Garrison Keillor. My interpersonal relations would be very much richer if I could get myself to be attracted to a larger set of objects of amour. But I think that I share with most people the lack of much flexibility in this area. About the most I can do is to make stronger attempts to uncover the "real person."

[P0M:] Maybe attitudes toward prion would make a good case study. I can remember when the theory first came out. The scientist who argued for a cause of certain diseases that was not a living organism and not a virus was strongly reviled by the authorities of the day. Eventually, however, the evidence became so overpowering that the discoverer of prion won the Nobel Prize. Now, I recently learned, there are still people who believe that there must be a virus causing the changes in the proteins whose altered forms characterize that class of diseases. None of these three groups of players merely has a "point of view." They all have evidence, or search for evidence, to help them understand what is really going on. Science frequently is unsettled, but it would be demeaning to say of any of these scientists that they merely had a "point of view." But it would also be very risky to affirm that any of them was being entirely objective. It is impossible to prove a negative so somebody might always claim that there is a virus behind prion and people just haven't found it yet. But at least more and more stringent attempts can be made to eliminate places where viruses might hide. It is possible that somebody will discover a virus that can be cultivated in a prion-free environment, introduced into a living culture, and be seen to produce a prion-type disease. If we were writing an article on prion it seems to me that the responsible thing to do would be to present the evidence and the attitudes toward the evidence. It would be irresponsible to balance the suspicion that there might be a virus involved evenly with the strong evidence that prion is itself the cause of disease. The same kinds of standards should apply to the tenets of Aetherism, Flat Earthism, any pseudo-science, or any science.

Patrick, thank you for that 1500-word essay! It provides the sort of broader perspective which we all need, to be able to write articles which are really informative. --Uncle Ed 13:51, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[P0M:] Again, thanks for the kind words. I hope the article can reflect the several layers of causation that interact to grow the sexuality of each of us. P0M 19:29, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

title: Talk:Homosexuality/Archive 3


text:
Terry Cooper (footballer, born 1944)

Terence Cooper (12 July 1944 – 31 July 2021) was an English football player and manager. He was a left back in the Leeds United team of the 1960s and 1970s, and featured for England at the 1970 Mexico World Cup. He later went on to manage both of Bristol's football teams, Birmingham City and was twice manager of Exeter City.

Early career
Cooper was born in Brotherton, West Riding of Yorkshire. He was not discovered as a young player in the conventional manner – he simply turned up at Leeds United one day with his football boots in a paper bag, asking for a trial. He was granted his wish and impressed enough to be offered an apprentice contract.

Initially a left winger, Cooper was converted to a defensive role by Leeds boss Don Revie on signing at the age of 17. He made gradual progress in the first team over the next six years until Revie decided to make him the permanent No. 3 in 1966.

Cooper settled in thereafter earning a reputation as a full back of innovation, showing that the right levels of fitness, skill and an ability to cross the ball meant he could perform a devastating overlap down the left flank to support much-feared winger Eddie Gray. This was so successful it became a trademark of Leeds's play. He could also 'go inside', joining attacks centrally and scoring some important goals.

1960s
In 1968, Leeds won the League Cup against Arsenal at Wembley. A poor and occasionally high-tempered match was settled by Cooper's volley after a corner had been half-cleared, although Arsenal claimed their goalkeeper had been fouled by central defender Jack Charlton. Cooper subsequently featured in the team which won the Fairs Cup in the same season.

In 1969, Leeds won the League championship with Cooper making his contribution. Revie did not buy a reserve left back but instead used the utility player Paul Madeley to replace Cooper in the event of injury or suspension. He was given his debut for England by Alf Ramsey against France the same year, and England won 5–0 with Cooper putting on a classy individual showing.

1970s
In the summer of 1970, Cooper gave an excellent series of performances as England's first choice left back at the World Cup in Mexico, which ended with defeat in the quarter-finals to West Germany. Leeds won the Fairs Cup again in 1971 but missed out on the League on the last day.

He seemed set to follow suit the next season as Leeds again chased League and FA Cup honours, but then suffered a broken leg in April 1972 during a League game at Stoke City. Aside from missing that season's FA Cup final victory over Arsenal, Cooper missed a whole 20 months of football due to the complications of the injury. When he did come back, it was with just two appearances in the 1974 season, thereby missing out on a League championship medal – Leeds won it with a 29-match unbeaten start – due to a lack of games.

Cooper's Leeds career was effectively over by the time he regained his fitness. The departure of Revie for the England job in 1974 and the emergence over the next season of Frank Gray, younger brother of Eddie, as well as the continued presence of Trevor Cherry (who Revie had bought as a central defender in 1972 but had ended up filling in at left back), rendered Cooper surplus to requirements. He left the club in 1975 to join Middlesbrough who were managed by former Leeds teammate Charlton.

Later career
After three years with Middlesbrough, playing more than 100 games, he moved on to Bristol City for two years, before being appointed as player-manager of rivals Bristol Rovers. After an unsuccessful period there, he subsequently assisted and played for his former Leeds skipper Billy Bremner at Doncaster Rovers. He was then approached to become player-manager at Bristol City following their consecutive relegations from the 1st to 4th divisions. Within two seasons, promotion to the Third Division was achieved with a fourth-place finish in 1983–84. Two years later he led the club to their first Wembley visit, winning the Associate Members' Cup Final against Bolton Wanderers in 1986. His management career also took in a period at the helm of Birmingham City sandwiched between two spells at Exeter City.

Personal life
Cooper and his wife Rosemary had three children. His son, Mark, and grandson, Charlie, also became footballers.

Cooper died on 31 July 2021, aged 77.

As a player
Leeds United
 * Football League First Division: 1968–69
 * Football League Cup: 1967–68
 * FA Charity Shield: 1969
 * Inter-Cities Fairs Cup: 1967–68, 1970–71; runner-up: 1966–67
 * FA Cup runner-up: 1969–70

Individual
 * Rothmans Golden Boots Awards: 1970, 1971, 1972

As a manager
Bristol City
 * Football League Fourth Division promotion: 1983–84
 * Associate Members' Cup: 1985–86

Exeter City
 * Football League Fourth Division: 1989–90

title: Terry Cooper (footballer, born 1944)


text:
Opus clavicembalisticum

Opus clavicembalisticum is a work for solo piano, notable for its length and difficulty, composed by Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji and completed on 25 June 1930.

At the time of its completion, it was the longest piano piece in existence, taking around 4–4½ hours to play, depending on tempo. Several of Sorabji's later works, such as the Symphonic Variations for Piano (which probably last about nine hours) are even longer.

At the time of its completion, it was possibly the most technically demanding solo piano work in existence, mainly due to its extreme length and rhythmic complexity. However, some works conceived by New Complexity, modernist and avant-garde composers, along with Sorabji himself, were even more demanding; it is in this particular area that Opus clavicembalisticum is highly regarded and primarily receives its notoriety.

Sorabji may have partly been inspired to compose the work after hearing a performance of Busoni's Fantasia contrappuntistica by Egon Petri; Opus clavicembalisticum is a homage to Busoni's work to some degree. Sorabji's earlier Toccata No. 1 (1928) (also for piano solo and a multi-movement work) shows similar Busonian influence and is in some ways a precursor of Opus clavicembalisticum.

Structure
Opus clavicembalisticum has twelve movements of hugely varying dimensions: from a three-minute-long cadenza to an hour-long interlude, containing a toccata, adagio, and passacaglia (with 81 variations). The work's movements are set in three parts, each larger than the last:

The manuscript and publication both erroneously say that the sixth movement (Interludium primum) has forty-four variations instead of forty-nine.

Composition and dedication
In a letter upon completion of the massive work on 25 June 1930, Sorabji wrote to a friend of his: With a wracking head and literally my whole body shaking as with ague I write this and tell you I have just this afternoon early finished Clavicembalisticum... The closing 4 pages are so cataclysmic and catastrophic as anything I've ever done—the harmony bites like nitric acid—the counterpoint grinds like the mills of God... (underneath he quotes the last chord of the work, with "I am the Spirit that denies!")

The dedication on the title page reads:

"TO MY TWO FRIENDS (E DUOBUS UNUM) HUGH M'DIARMID and C.M. GRIEVE" and proceeds "LIKEWISE TO THE EVERLASTING GLORY OF THOSE FEW MEN BLESSED AND SANCTIFIED IN THE CURSES AND EXECRATIONS OF THOSE MANY WHOSE PRAISE IS ETERNAL DAMNATION."

J. Curwen & Sons of London published the score in 1931.

Performances
There have to date been over 20 performances of the complete Opus clavicembalisticum.

The first was by Sorabji himself on 1 December 1930, in Glasgow, under the auspices of "The Active Society for the Propagation of Contemporary Music".

Pars prima was performed by John Tobin on 10 March 1936; this performance is noted to have taken approximately twice as long as the score dictates. This performance, and its reception, may have led to Sorabji's "ban" on public performances of his works; he asserted that "no performance at all is vastly preferable to an obscene travesty". Sorabji maintained this veto until 1976.

Opus clavicembalisticum was unperformed for the following 46 years until it was played by Geoffrey Douglas Madge in 1982. A recording of the performance was released on a set of four LPs, which are now out of print. Madge performed it in public in its entirety on six occasions from 1982 to 2002, including once in 1983, at Mandel Hall in Chicago, a recording of which was released by BIS Records in 1999.

John Ogdon publicly performed the work in London twice, towards the end of his life, and produced a studio recording of the work. Jonathan Powell gave his first performance of the work in London in 2003; he has since played it in New York (2004), Helsinki and St. Petersburg (2005) and, in 2017, he embarked on a tour with it to include performances in Brighton, London, Oxford, Karlsruhe, Glasgow, Brno and elsewhere.

The only other verifiable and complete public performances of this work have been given by Daan Vandewalle in Brugge, Madrid and Berlin, although some pianists have performed excerpts, which are usually the first two movements. For example, Jean-Jaques Schmid performed part of the work at the Biennale Bern 03 and Alexander Amatosi performed the first movement at the University of Durham School of Music in 2001.

title: Opus clavicembalisticum