text:
Talk:Fascism/Archive 6

I think this should settle the question re TDC. Mussolini himself makes it quite clear that fascism is anti-socialist accordingly any state adhering to a socialist ideology cannot be fascist:

pg 12: "Fascism repudiates any universal embrace... (pg 13) Such a conception of life makes Fascism the complete opposite of that doctrine, the base of so-called scientific and Marxian Socialism, the materialist conception of history; according to which the history of human civilization can be explained siimply through the conflict of interests among the various social groups and by the change and development in the means and instruments of production."

"And above all Fascism denies that the class war can be the preponderant force in the transformation of society. These two fundamental concepts of Socialism being thus refuted, nothing is left of it but the sentimental aspiration - as old as (pg 14) humanity itself - towards a social convention in which the sorrows and sufferings of the humblest shall be alleviated. But here again Fascism repudiates the conception of "economic" happiness, to be realized by Socialism and, as it were, at a given moment in economic evolution to assure to everyone the maximum of well-being. Fascism denies the materialist conception of happiness as a possibility..." (source: The Political and Social Doctrine of Fascism by Benito Mussolin, translation by Jane Soames published by the Hogarth Press, London, 1933)130.15.162.71 19:55, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Doctrine of Fascism

 * Look Andy, I don't dispute that many Catholics supported Fascism. Just like many Catholics support the Democratic Party here in America even though the Democratic positions on many things are anti-Christian.  Explain that.

 * I must be the only one that read the Doctrine of Fascism. From the Doctrine:
 * "The Fascist State is not indifferent to religious phenomena in general nor does it maintain an attitude of indifference to Roman Catholicism,the special, positive religion of Italians...The Fascist State does not attempt, as did Robespierre at the height of the revolutionary delirium of the Convention, to set up a "god" of its own; not does it vainly seek, as does Bolshevism, to efface God from the soul of man."

 * "The Fascist state claims its ethical character: it is Catholic but above all fascist, in fact it is exclusively and essentially Fascist.  Catholicism completes Fascism, and this we openly declare, but let no one think they can turn the tables on us, under cover of metaphysics or philosophy. (The the Chamber of Deputies, May 13, 1929, in Discorsi del 1929, Milano, Alpes, l930, p 182)"

 * The original liturgical language of Rome was not Latin but Greek. Sometime in the 5th century, it changed to Latin.  With that change brought the Latin or Roman mentality into Christianity.  Latin mentality and Greek mentality are very different.  This affected huge changes within Latin Christianity.  I was raised Catholic and was one for 40 years.  I am now Orthodox.WHEELER 23:42, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Lenin called Mussolini "a Confusionist". This man was totally loopy. He contradicts himself in many places. The man was confused. None of his writings or his philosophies can be seen in any rightist before Mussolini. Rightists don't have ideologies.WHEELER 23:45, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Mussolini makes it clear he was anti-Marxist and anti-Socialist. That rather destroys your argument about Fascism and socialism doesn't it?

And WHEELER, it's not just that "many Catholics supported fascism" it's that many *clergy* including *senior clergy* supported fascism. It's also that Fascist ecnomic policy comes not from the Communist Manifesto but out of the 1891 papal encyclical! How do you explain Msr. Tiso being the fascist dicator of Slovakia? Or Catholic priests joining in and helping direct the Ustashe's genocide of Serbs? Sorry but John Kerry and Edward Kennedy may be Catholics but they certainly aren't clergy so your comparison doesn't stand up. As for Orthodoxy, look at the support the Romanian Orthodox Church gave to the fascist Iron Guard! User:Formeruser-83

So what's your point?WHEELER 23:50, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Rightism is for the monarchy or of mixed constitutions. Democracy, Socialism, Fascism, Anarchism are all on the left. In the Doctrine of Fascism, Mussolini writes page 10 of 17 of worldfuturefund.org, "It is not reactionary but revolutionary." All Rightist are reactionaries. Not revolutionaries. Revolutionaries are on the left!!!WHEELER 23:53, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * You and your silly generalisations. Depends which definition of right and left you're using doesn't it? Terms like right and left are plastic and used in different ways by different people. Many would say the Catholic Church is left wing because of its anti-materialism.

 * Anyway, point is that a) the Catholic Church (not just individual Catholic lay people) supported the fascsist movement even taking leadership roles b) Fascism was, by its own definition, anti-Marxist and rejected the central tenets of socialism c) the Fascist movement was heavily influenced by Catholic social and economic thought particularly the papal encyclical of 1891 d) that the Pope acted to support fascism and actively discouraged Catholic parties over which he had influence from opposing fascism. Formeruser-83

From the Doctrine: "A party governing a nation "totalitarianly" is a new departure in history. There are no points of reference not of comparison.  '''From beneath the ruins of liberal, socialist, and democratic doctrines, Fascism extracts those elements which are still vital.  It preserves what may be described as "the acquired facts" of history; it rejects all else."WHEELER 23:58, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Please Andy read the Doctrine. Who did Mussolini quote as the philosophical basis for Fascism:  Sorel, Peguy, Renan and Lagardelle.  Both Sorel and Peguy and Renan were influenced by the Jewish French philosopher Henri Bergeson.  This "vital" thing Mussolini always keeps talking about, comes from the Jewish philosopher Henri Bergeson and his 'elan vitale".WHEELER 00:02, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

You realise that the quotations you're using actually *disprove* your point regarding socialism and fascism and prove my point about fascism and Catholicism? Or have you abandoned those claims in the face of overwhelming evidence against you? Formeruser-83

It was Bergson that demolished scientism and mechanical evolution and materialism of the Marxist ideology. If you want to know where Mussolini got his anti-Marxism, he got it from the Jewish philosopher Henri Bergson. WHEELER 00:06, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Yeah so what? Who cares where he got his anti-Marxism, the point is that he was anti-Marxist. Thaks for *finally* admitting it. Now we can move on. Formeruser-83
 * I asked you to read the archive sections. I already stated that Mussolini and Hitler were anti-marxists.  Did not stop them from being socialist?  Socialists fight all the time among themselves.  Please WHEELER 00:10, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Fascism and Marxism are brothers. Heresies fighting among themselves for power and control of the Masses. Mussonlini did not think Marxism was rightist at all.WHEELER 00:08, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * "Heresies fighting among themselves for power and control of the Masses" And complete ideological opposites fight each other as well.

 * "These two fundamental concepts of Socialism being thus refuted, nothing is left of it but the sentimental aspiration - as old as (pg 14) humanity itself - towards a social convention in which the sorrows and sufferings of the humblest shall be alleviated. But here again Fascism repudiates the conception of "economic" happiness, to be realized by Socialism and, as it were, at a given moment in economic evolution to assure to everyone the maximum of well-being. Fascism denies the materialist conception of happiness as a possibility..."

"Such a conception of life makes Fascism the complete opposite of that doctrine, the base of so-called scientific and Marxian Socialism, " You do understand the phrase "complete opposite" do you not? On the one hand, Mussolini says "Fascism completes Catholicism" on the other he says that fascism and Marxism are "complete opposites". Anyway, you've admitted what I tried to get you to admit so I think we can all move on now. Formeruser-83

 * OK Wheeler, here's the moment you've been waiting for. Our library here happens to have the 1932 enciclopedia italiana. I have volume XIV in front of me and here, I am about to reveal whether your Herbert Hoover book correctly translated Mussolini as saying fascism is of the "left" or if he said it's of the "right". Have the websites you quoted deliberately substituted "right" for "left" or is the translation Herbert Hoover used in his book just wrong.

 * are you ready?

 * volume XIV, article is called fascismo by benito mussolini. on page 850, 1st column, about the middle of paragraph 2, Mussolini writes as follows:

Si puo pensare che questo sia il secolo dell'autorita, un secolo di < >, un secolo fascista;

 * Now, I don't know a lot of Italian but I do happen to know that "sinistra" means left and "destra" means right so the translation of "un secolo di < >, un secolo fascista;" would be "a century of the 'right', a fascist century."

 * Send my your snailmail address and I'll send you a photocopy of the page just in case you don't believe me. Or if you think I'll falsify the photocopy use your interlibrary loan system and ask Stauffer Library at Queen's University (Kingston, Ontario) to send you a photocopy of page 850, volume XIV, Enciclopedia Italiana call# REF AE35 E5 v.14Formeruser-83

"From beneath the ruins of liberal, socialist, and democratic doctrines, Fascism extracts those elements which are still vital." So if you're using this to argue that Mussolini thought fascism is socialistic then you'd also have to argue that fascism is liberal and democratic. Good luck trying to persuade anyone of that. Sorry WHEELER but Mussolini makes it quite clear in the Fascismo article that fascism is opposed to socialism. He also makes it quite clear, it can now be said, that fascism is *right wing*. Your assertion that Mussolini thought fascism was either left wing or socialist has been proven wrong so please be a gentleman, admit you were misled by a poor source and drop the issue so we can move on.

Mussolini identifies himself as right wing (Yes, believe it or not Herbert Hoover can not be trusted when it comes to translating Italian. )and as anti-socialist and virtually every scholar does as well so wikipedia is not in a position to buck the trend. If you have an unorthodox opinion then write an article and post it on your own website or send it to some journal but wikipedia articles are not the place for it. Just because you really really believe something or really really want something to be true doesn't mean that thing has to be accomodated. Try writing the Encyclopedia Britannica or the Encyclopedia Americana and convince them to say in their books that fascism is left wing or that fascism is a form of socialism and see how far you get. Wikipedia's standards shouldn't be any lower.

And yes, compared to feudalists and believers in the divine right of kings and in the ancien regime of the seventeenth century Mussolini was left-wing but in the context of twentieth century history and politics he was on the right and that is the context in which the article is being written and certainly those anti-modernists and a great number of monarchists and others who reject the French revolution and all it wrought saw Mussolini and fascism as an ally rather than as an enemy, an ally against socialism, Bolshevism, liberalism and democracy so yes, he was to the "left" of royalists but he was considerably to the right of the socialists, liberals et al, so much so that most people you would have identified as being "right wing" in the early 20th century preferred fascism over the other alternatives so in that context too he was "right wing". Even Churchill had good things to say about Mussolini in the 1920s and early 1930s as did most of the British establishment.

Churchill after meeting Mussolini in 1927:
 * "I could not help being charmed, like so many other people have been, by his gentle and simple bearing and by his calm, detached poise in spite of so many burdens and dangers."
 * Mr Churchill declined to discuss Fascism in its national aspect, he said:
 * "Different countries have different ways of doing the same thing…If I had been an Italian, I am sure that I should have been whole-heartedly with you from start to finish in your triumphant struggle against…Leninism. But in England we have not yet had to face his danger in the same deadly form…. But that we shall succeed in grappling with Communism and choking the life out of it - of that I am absolutely sure."
 * Extract from press statements made by Churchill, January 1927

Formeruser-83

"Better Hitler than Blum" was the cry of the French right in the 30s...and the French right was much more sympathetic to Mussolini (and Franco) than they were to Hitler, who was, after all, the hereditary enemy. john 04:19, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * "Herr Chancellor, on behalf of the British Government I congratulate you on crushing communism in Germany and standing as a bulwark against Russia"

- Lord Halifax then British Deputy Prime Minister (later Foreign Secretary) addressing Adolf Hitler, November 1937. Formeruser-83

Of course, we should not take the comments of statesmen who are complimenting their hosts too seriously... At any rate, this is not constructive. How to begin work on a new way of organizing the article? I'd love to write about French fascism (which isn't really covered here, anyway), but we really need to resolve the basic organizational questions, first. john 04:34, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Halfax was seen as something of an appeaser. Anyway, I wasn't suggesting it for the article just trying to settle the point with WHEELER and hopfully TDC though I suspect at least TDC may continue on his quest to prove that fascism isn't associated with anything on his side of the political spectrum Formeruser-83

Question Andy: Is Henri Bergson a rightist or a Christian? What Jew is a rightist? None. It is clear that the *vitalism* in Henri Bergson is the same *vitalism* of Mussolini. Bergeson was not a rightist at all. May have been a mild leftist. He was certainly NOT marxist but he was not rightist either. There is no doubt that Sorel, Peguy, Renan, and Bergeson were the philosophical basis for Fascism.WHEELER 17:47, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Sorel was definitely leftist for much of his life, right before WWI he became a rightist and supported monarchists but after WWI, he heavily supported and defended Lenin.WHEELER 17:50, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * Question Andy: Is Henri Bergson a rightist or a Christian? What Jew is a rightist? None. It is clear that the *vitalism* in Henri Bergson is the same *vitalism* of Mussolini. Bergeson was not a rightist at all. May have been a mild leftist. He was certainly NOT marxist but he was not rightist either. There is no doubt that Sorel, Peguy, Renan, and Bergeson were the philosophical basis for Fascism.WHEELER 17:47, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Let me get this straight. Your argument is that because Henri Bergson is Jewish Mussolini must be a leftist? And that is based on you assertion that no Jew is right wing (implying that all Jews are left wing). I think you're overgeneralising just a *wee* bit there.
 * "What Jew is a rightist?"

David Frum, Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz come to mind along with Ariel Sharon, Vladimir Jabotinsky, Elliot Abrams, Norman Podhoretz, Elliot Cohen, Midge Dector, Daniel Pipes, Charles Krauthammer, William Kristol, Irving Kristol, Allan Bloom... shall I continue?

I think you have a very limited conception of what is "right wing" and that is clouding your analysis. Formeruser-83

Rightist means for the monarchy. None of those are. Conservative doesn't mean rightist. WHEELER 18:15, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Republicanism and Monarchism are almost identical. I point to Sparta and see the Talk:Republic None of those above promote the Republic as the original Founding Fathers wanted it to be. So they are really not conservatives either.WHEELER 18:17, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It totally amazes me that the "Doctrine of Fascism" is never mentioned in the original article. There are no quotes and there are no references to it. It is not even mentioned as a Source material. How the heck can we call ourselves encyclopaedists when we don't refer to original documents and constantly using secondary sources??? This is unreal.WHEELER 18:50, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

 * This from someone who used a mistranslated quotation from Doctrines of Fascism published in a book by Herbert Hoover as evidence.

Formeruser-83

The Philosophical Basis of Fascism
In the Doctrine of Fascism, Mussolini says the source of Fascism is Sorel, Peguy, and Lagardell. Later on in Doctrine of Fascism, Mussolini quotes from Renan who he said had "prefascist intuitions". Both Sorel and Peguy were influenced by Henri Bergson. Henri Bergson demolished scientism and mechanical evolution and materialism of the Marxist ideology. Henri Bergson promoted an *elan vital* as an evolutionary process. Both of these element of Bergeson appear in Fascism.

Sorel was interested with and influenced by Roman ideas and wanted to restore the greatness of Rome and its culture. He "collabrated with Benedetto Croce and Antonio Labriola in propagating Marx's idea's in Italy. Italy was Sorel's second home. In this period of his life, Sorel, was an anarchosyndicalist. Before WWI, dissatisfied with anarchosyndacalism he associated himself with extreme right wing groups, monarchists, ultra-nationalists and Catholic revivalists. But after WWI, he "put his energies into defending Lenin". It was he who propagated a "Theory of Violence" as necessary. WHEELER 18:15, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It looks to me that the greatest evils of the twentieth century, Marxism and Fascism came from the works of Jews. Marx was a Jew and Henri Bergson was a Jew. Practically all the elements of Henri Bergson is evident in the Doctrine of Fascism. This is fascinating.WHEELER 18:54, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Ha! Wheeler's an anti-semite. Huzzah! Does that give us any right to ignore him? john 18:59, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

By that logic, shouldn't you also ignore Marx?TDC 19:03, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

One down, one to go... john 19:10, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Not at all my dear man. I am just pointing out facts.  The realization hit me.WHEELER 19:18, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * WHEELER, if you're going to begin attacking the Jews, you will lose what goodwill you have built with a few editors here. Please don't.  Even if you are anti-Semitic, please keep it quiet here or I know trouble will ensue. Jwrosenzweig 19:20, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The opinions of editors, whether they be hatred of jews, or love of chess, are to be of no importance. This means mainly that there is no use in presenting them. I implore you wheeler, please keep unpopular opinions to yourself, they in no way increase your ability to place unpopular facts within the article. I personally have a negative view towards racism, communism, political correctness and environmental degredation, but that is really irrelevent to making this a better article. Lets focus on facts, and discuss our opinions, popular or otherwise, elsewhere if at all. Sam Spade 19:51, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * WHEELER, I think that, to be fair to you, I need to emphasize that the above is Sam's opinion. In fact, editors who express racist ideas here repeatedly can be blocked as violating community standards.  He is right that anti-Semites can edit here.  What they can't do is bash the Jews openly.  I think Sam would agree with me that I am describing the reality of the situation, even if he feels that your personal opinions should not matter. Jwrosenzweig 20:13, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

"Rightist means for the monarchy. None of those are. Conservative doesn't mean rightist." Benjamin Disraeli was a monarchist (like Marx he was of Jewish ethnicity but baptised as a child), Michael Howard, the current leader of the Conservative Party in Britain is Jewish and a monarchist, so are a number of other Jewish Tories such as Leon Brittan and Michael Rifkind,. Anyway, by your definition, the Republican Party isn't right wing, nor is George W. Bush or Ronald Reagan, nor was Barry Goldwater. Again, I think your definition of "right wing" is far narrower than the one used in academia or indeed, by anyone since the 18th century or so. Formeruser-83

 * "The Prince of Wales (Charles) descends from the Colonna family who were Jewish in origin. He has also a descent from the Khazars (see below) who adopted Judaism as their religion. The Queen, her husband and her children have another Jewish descent from an historical figure named Makhir. Makhir was a Jewish Prince of the Davidic Royal House sent by Caliph Harun-al-Rashid as ambassador to the Emperor Charlemagne at the end of the 9th century. Makhir remained in Europe where he founded a family, one of whose descendants marries into the medieval English Royal Family." Source:Monarchist League of Canada Formeruser-83

And of course, there's King David.

Thanks for the information Andy. I appreciate it greatly.WHEELER 21:31, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

These genealogies sound dubious. It should be noted that the Jews of Austria-Hungary were notable as the most loyalist ethnic group in that monarchy. At any rate, this is silly. WHEELER is an anti-semite - let's not debate him. john 20:24, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

"It looks to me that the greatest evils of the twentieth century, Marxism and Fascism came from the works of Jews." Some would add Christianity to the list, after all that too "comes for the works of Jews", Jesus, Mary, the apostles were all Jewish. Formeruser-83

"By that logic, shouldn't you also ignore Marx" Virtually all European gentiles before about 1900 or so could probably be said to be anti-Semitic at least to some degree. Indeed, if you look at the writings of 19th and early 20th century Zionists you'll find a lot of what we would now recognise as anti-Semitism there (need to reject the shtetl, Yiddish, the Jewish religion and mercantalism as backwards, go to Palestine and become a New Jew and "normal" like everone else etc.. read not only Moses Hess but Gordon, Herzl et al). It's one reason you have to look at context othewise we'll have to go through the wikipedia and add a politically correct phrase to the biography of every pre-20th century figure explaining that they are sexist, anti-Semitic, racist, homophobic etc because virtually all of them were! Even the women, Jews, non-whites and gays!)130.15.162.62 21:03, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Okay, I may be wrong about the Jews not being monarchists or royalists. Ariel Sharon is not a monarchist. I worked for two and a half years as a shabbas goy of a conservative synagogue, I attended every service and knew all the hymns. I enjoyed it thoroughly. WHEELER 21:05, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Bergson wanted to become Catholic but wanted solidarity with His fellow brothers in l941. A Catholic Priest did say prayers for him at his funeral per his wishes.WHEELER 21:07, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Mussolini followed Sorel. This from the Encyclopaedia of Philosophy. "But Sorel adopted the accounts of the heroic and decadent phases of society given by Giambattista Vico in his cyclical theory. Sorel and Croce stimulated the revival of interest in Vico, and Sorel regarded his own social theory as a Viconian revision of Marxism.

 * Andy wants to throw around that because Mussolini was anti-marxist makes him rightist. Sorel attack Marxism from within using Vico and Bergson demolishes the materialism and scientificism of Marxism.  That is where this comes from.WHEELER 21:16, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I don't know politically where Bergson stood. I can find no information on that. But Bergson had a great influence of the time. I studied Nikos Kazantzakis who was also heavily influenced by Bergson. I wrote an article called "The Swastika and Nikos Kazantzakis". A biographer of Kazantzakis has a picture of a form of a swastika on the front cover.WHEELER 21:22, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

"Croce said that Sorel and Marx were the only original thinkers Socialism ever had." This in Encyclopaedia of Philosophy. This is an Italian Socialist saying Sorel is one the 'original thinkers' of socialism. Fascism is not of the right at all. WHEELER 21:37, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Italian Fascism was not anti-semetic.WHEELER 21:41, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

WHEELER, read the article Left-Right politics. Your definitions are far too rigid. You have to understand that meanings evolve over time and that the way "right-wing" and "left-wing" are applied in the twentieth century as well as today are different from the way they were applied before. We're not living in 1789. Moreover, your rigid definition of "right" and "left" is not the one used in modern political science or by historians of the fascist period therefore we can not use your definition in this encyclopedia, we have to use the academically accepted usage. Do you understand? You may well be correct but until you can convince scholars of that we cannot use your usage of left and right in the wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a mechanism to convince scholarship that it is wrong, it's not a forum for opinion and persuasion. You'll have to go somewhere else for that. If you like I'm sure there are people here who can hope you establish your own webpage or blog where you can put forth your opinions and try to persuade people but this isn't the place. Formeruser-83

Why are we talking?
Just a reminder: the purpose of each article's talk page is to discuss ways of improving the article.

Try to keep this in mind, when asserting that one point or another is true or not. We'd like each point discussed to result in an addition or other improvement to the article.

Remember, we're not here to convince others that we are right. Rather we're here to distinguish among the various points of view: some like fascism and wish it had been more successful; others despise it and wish it had never existed. I doubt any of us are going to change our minds in the next few weeks. --Uncle Ed 22:05, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Ed, I hope that you are not inferring that I wish Fascism had been more successful. I am simply tring to bring up the issue that many serious historical thinkers believe that Fascism has many of its roots in marxist/socialist theory, and have it include in the article without being obliterated every time I put it in.

Please do not misconstrue the point I am getting at. TDC 22:27, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Although I suppose some might like Fascism, I doubt that you will find anybody posting here who admires fascism and wish it had been more successful. That is not what we are arguing about - it's a straw man. john 22:32, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, Ed, for the constructive advice. But don't be fooled by TDC's lies -- "I am simply tring to bring up the issue that many serious historical thinkers believe that Fascism has many of its roots in marxist/socialist theory" is just an attempt to confuse the issue. If you want to, you can go through all the talk pages but you will not mind mention of any serious historical thinker who has argued that Fascism has roots in Marxist thought. All we have here is a crank who thinks Wikipedia is a vehicle for personal essays, rather than an enecyclopedia. Slrubenstein

 * " that many serious historical thinkers believe that Fascism has many of its roots in marxist/socialist theory"

That's an unsupported statement, TDC. Please name six serious historians who argue that. Formeruser-83

 * Joshua Muravchik, Paul Lawrence Rose, Daniel Pipes, Friedrich Hayek, Victor David Hanson, and I am sure there are others, but those are the ones I am most familiar with. And dont start with the line that these are not serious academics garbage. TDC 04:47, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * Andy -- I predict that TDC will list six different serious historical thinkers, none of whom claim that Fascism has its roots in Marxism, but TDC will nevertheless provide long quotes filling up the page and then restate the false claim as if the quotes prove it, either oblivious to what the quotes say, or simply with malicious delight at wasting our time. Just a predication ... Slrubenstein

Hey, I dont give a fuck what you think does or does not prove my case. Serious academic believe that Fascism has many of its roots in marxist/socialist theory.

I am done, it goes in as soon as the page is unprotected. :p TDC 04:47, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

 * To Andy and Slrubenstein I just produced evidence, Facts, on Sorel. Sorel is a socialist.  He provided the framework and philosophy of Fascism to Mussolini.  The Encyclopeadia of Philosophy proves TDC right.  It is from Socialist and Marxist ideology.  What about your biases of protecting your false idea that Fascism is of the right?  WHEELER 01:27, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

WHEELER, some scholars say that Sorel was one of several people whose work influenced Fascist thought. That is not at all what you or TDC are claiming -- not at all. One could just as accurately say that "Fascists appropriated certain ideas of Sorel." Or you could say that, since the Fascists used printing presses, "The printing press made Fascism possible" -- true, in a way, but meaningless. The same scholars who claim that Sorel influenced Fascists name Nietzsche as an influence. It is clear that the Fascists misinterpreted Nietzsche; virtually all Nietzsche scholars argue that Nietzsche would have been vigorously opposed to fascism. And it would be silly to write "Fascism is a form of existentialism," just because Nietzsche also contributed to existentialist thought. So my prediction is coming true: people with no clue about how to interpret historical or scholarly documents present them as if they prove one thing, when they do not prove it at all. Exactly what I said. Slrubenstein

 * Who is not being fair here. Slrubenstein already calls what TDC says lies.  If he has facts they are facts not lies. WHEELER 01:29, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Please see: http://www.policyreview.org/aug00/Beichman.html WHEELER 01:32, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I already know about James Gregor, the man is a Nazi sympathiser and a supporter of eugenics and racial segregation. This is probably why his book takes great pains to differentiate fascism and Nazism and probably why he argues that fascism is left wing and Nazism is right wing (that's right, according to Gregor, fascism and Nazism or on the opposite ends of the political spectrum). Gregor has praised what he describes as "last phase ... [of] National Socialist race theory," calling it a "scientifically sound and emotionally satisfying" philosophy. Gregor has also said that there is "compelling evidence of Negro biological inferiority"

Thank you but one person doesn't make a consensus, certainly not if that person is Gregor. The consensus in academia is quite clear in relation to fascism. The point remains, WHEELER, that your claim is not supported in academia so it doesn't belong in Wikipedia. Do you not understand that? Convince the Encyclopedia Britannica or the Encyclopedia Americana that they should describe fascism as left wing and then come back here and say we should do the same. Formeruser-83

TDC, can you just agree to stop listing the Soviet Union as a fascist country so that the page protection can be lifted and we can return to editing? Can you just do that one thing please???? Formeruser-83

As for Gregor, you can find more information about him here The Funding of Scientific Racism He's a very scary individual and I don't think we should take him as a credible source. AndyL 02:27, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

wikiquette
read this page. Sam Spade 23:15, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

title: Talk:Fascism/Archive 6


text:
Gold mining

Gold mining is the extraction of gold by mining.

Historically, mining gold from alluvial deposits used manual separation processes, such as gold panning. The expansion of gold mining to ores that are not on the surface has led to more complex extraction processes such as pit mining and gold cyanidation. In the 20th and 21st centuries, most volume of mining was done by large corporations. However, the value of gold has led to millions of small, artisanal miners in many parts of the Global South.

Like all mining, human rights and environmental issues are common in the gold mining industry, and can result in environmental conflict. In mines with less regulation, health and safety risks are much higher.

History

The exact date that humans first began to mine gold is unknown, but some of the oldest known gold artifacts were found in the Varna Necropolis in Bulgaria. The graves of the necropolis were built between 4700 and 4200 BC, indicating that gold mining could be at least 6,724 years old. During a series of excavations carried out between 1878 and 1992, several graves were found with more than 6kg of gold. A group of German and Georgian archaeologists claims the Sakdrisi site in southern Georgia, dating to the 3rd or 4th millennium BC, may be the world's oldest known gold mine.

Prehistoric Period
Gold has been prized by humans since prehistoric times. Archaeological evidence suggests that humans were mining gold as far back as 4000 BCE, with some the earliest known gold artifacts dating back to ancient Mesopotamia. Particularly in the region of present-day Iraq, gold was mined extensively. The ancient Sumerians, around 2500 BCE, developed sophisticated techniques for extracting gold from alluvial deposits and underground mines. These techniques included the use of sluice boxes.

Ancient Egypt
Evidence suggests that Nubia had sporadic access to gold nuggets during the Neolithic and Prehistoric Period. Gold mining in Egypt involved both surface mining such as panning for gold in riverbeads and underground mining, where tunnels were dug to extrac gold-bearing quartz veins. During the Bronze Age, sites in the Eastern Desert became a great source of gold-mining for nomadic Nubians, who used "two-hand-mallets" and "grinding ore extraction." By the Old Kingdom, the oval mallet was introduced for mining. By the Middle Kingdom, stone mortars to process ores and a new gold-washing technique were introduced. During the New Kingdom, Nubian mining expanded under Egyptian occupation with the invention of the grinding mill. Additionally, gold was associated with the sun god Ra and was believed to be eternal and indestructible, symbolising the pharoah's divine power and afterlife. Gold has also been found in the tombs of Tutankhamun and other pharoahs.

Ancient Rome and Greece
During the Bronze Age, gold objects were also plentiful; especially in Ireland and Spain. Romans employed slave labour and used hydraulic mining methods, such as hushing and ground sluicing on a large scale to extract gold from extensive alluvial (loose sediment) deposits, such as those at Las Medulas. Mining was under the control of the state but the mines may have been leased to civilian contractors some time later. The gold served as the primary medium of exchange within the empire, and was an important motive in the Roman conquest of Britain by Claudius in the first century AD; although there is only one known Roman gold mine at Dolaucothi in west Wales. Gold was a prime motivation for the campaign in Dacia when the Romans invaded Transylvania in what is now modern Romania in the second century AD. The legions were led by the emperor Trajan, and their exploits are shown on Trajan's Column in Rome and the several reproductions of the column elsewhere (such as the Victoria and Albert Museum in London). Under the Eastern Roman Empire Emperor Justinian's rule, gold was mined in the Balkans, Anatolia, Armenia, Egypt, and Nubia.

Ancient Asia
In the area of the Kolar Gold Fields in Bangarpet Taluk, Kolar district of Karnataka state, India; gold was first mined prior to the 2nd and 3rd century AD by digging small pits. Golden objects found in Harappa and Mohenjo-daro have been traced to Kolar through the analysis of impurities – the impurities include 11% silver concentration, found only in KGF ore.The Champion reef at the Kolar gold fields was mined to a depth of 50 m during the Gupta period in the fifth century AD. During the Chola period in the 9th and 10th century AD, the scale of the operation grew. The metal continued to be mined by the eleventh century kings of South India, the Vijayanagara Empire from 1336 to 1560, and later by Tipu Sultan, the king of Mysore state and the British. It is estimated that the total gold production in Karnataka to date is 1000 tons.

The mining of the Hungarian deposit (present-day Slovakia) primarily around Kremnica was the largest of the Medieval period in Europe.

Ancient South America
In South America, gold mining in the Andes dates back to thousands of years, with the Inca empire employing extensive gold mining operations in regions such as present-day Peru and Ecuador. They used stone tools and simple mining techniques to extract gold from rivers, streams, and surface deposits.

Middle Ages: European Gold Rushes
During the Middle Ages, Europe experience several gold rushes. Most notably in regions like Transylvania, Scotland, and Wales. These rushes were often small-scale and localised compared to later rushes in history.

Transylvania
The Transylvania gold rush took place in present-day Romania, primarily in the region of Transylvania during the medieval period. Transylvania was known for its rich mineral resources including gold, silver, and other metals. Miners in Transylvania used both surface and underground mining techniques to extract gold from alluvial deposits and veins. These methods include panning, sluicing, and rudimentary shaft mining.

Scotland
The Scottish gold rush occurred in Scotland, primarily in the Highlands during the 16th and 17th century. Gold deposits were discovered in rivers and streams, leading to a surge in prospecting and mining activity. The Scottish Crown took an interest in gold discoveries, in hopes of aiding the kingdom's economy and revenue. King James IV of Scotland established a royal mint to produce gold coins from Scottish gold. The Scottish gold rush eventually waned due to a combination of factors including the depletion of easily accessible gold deposits, harsh weather conditions, and the political instability at the time.

Wales
The Welsh gold rush occurred in Wales, more so in the Dolgellau area of Gwynedd, during the 19th century. Gold deposits were discovered in Welsh mountains, with reports of gold being found in rivers Mawddach and Tryweryn. By the mid-19th century, commercial mining operations had begun. Wales' gold gained popularity for its quality and rarity, leading to its use in royal jewelry for the British royal family.

California Gold Rush
During the 19th century, numerous gold rushes in remote regions around the globe caused large migrations of miners, such as the California Gold Rush of 1849. This is one of the most famous gold rushes in history. The discovery of gold at Sutter's Mill in California sparked a massive migration of people from around the world to California in search of gold. The rush significantly accelerated westward expansion in the United States and had profound effects on the region's economy and society.

Australian Gold Rush
The gold rushes began in 1851 when Edward Hargraves, a prospector, discovered gold near Bathhurst, New South Wales. The most well known gold rush in Australia was the Victorian Gold Rush. Thousands of people, known as 'diggers', came from around the world to Australia in search of gold, which ultimately contributed to the growth of cities like Melbourne and Sydney.

South African Gold Rush
The discovery of gold in the Witwatersrand led to the Second Boer War and ultimately the founding of South Africa. This transformed the region into one of the wealthiest gold-producing areas in the world. This rush played a crucial role in the development of South Africa's economy and lead to the establishment of Johannesburg, known as the 'city of gold'. Gold-bearing reefs in the neighbouring Free State province were found shortly thereafter, driving significant development in the region with the establishment of the Free State goldfields.

Klondike Gold Rush
Also known as the Yukon Gold Rush, brought prospectors from around the world to the Klondike region of the Yukon territory in Canada. The Klondike God Rush began in 1896, when gold was discovered in Bonanza Creek, a tributary of the Klondike River by George Carmack and his Indigenous companions, Skookum Jim Mason and Tagish Charlie. As prospectors arrived in Klondike, makeshift towns and settlements sprang up along the rivers, including Dawson City, which because the largest town in Yukon at the height of the gold rush. Prospectors employed various mining techniques to extract gold from the Klondike's streams and riverbeds, including placer mining, dredging, and hydraulic mining.

The Carlin Trend
The Carlin Trend of Nevada, U.S., was discovered in 1961. Official estimates indicate that total world gold production since the beginning of civilization has been around 6352216000 ozt and total gold production in Nevada is 1.1% of that, ranking Nevada as one of the Earth's primary gold-producing regions.

Statistics
World gold production was 3,612 tonnes in 2022. , the world's largest gold producer was China with 368.3 tonnes of gold mined in that year. The second-largest producer of gold was Russia where 331.1 tonnes was mined in the same year, followed by Australia with 327.8 tonnes. In 2023, the annual gold demand of 4,448 tonnes was 5% below that of 2022. The total gold demand in 2023 was the highest at 4,899 tonnes.

Despite its decreasing content in ores, gold production is increasing. This increase can be achieved through ever larger-scale industrial installations as well as innovations, especially in hydrometallurgy.

Hard rock mining

Hard rock mining extracts gold encased in rock, rather than fragments in loose sediment, and produces most of the world's gold. Sometimes open-pit mining is used, such as at the Fort Knox Mine in central Alaska. Barrick Gold Corporation has one of the largest open-pit gold mines in North America located on its Goldstrike mine property in north eastern Nevada. Other gold mines use underground mining, where the ore is extracted through tunnels or shafts. South Africa has the world's deepest hard rock gold mine up to 3900 m underground. At such depths, the heat is unbearable for humans, and air conditioning is required for the safety of the workers. The first such mine to receive air conditioning was Robinson Deep, at that time the deepest mine in the world for any mineral.

By-product gold mining
Gold is also produced by mining in which it is not the principal product. Large copper mines, such as the Bingham Canyon mine in Utah, often recover considerable amounts of gold and other metals along with copper. Sand and gravel pits, like those in Denver (Colorado), may recover small amounts of gold in their wash operations. The largest producing gold mine in the world, the Grasberg mine in Papua, Indonesia, is primarily a copper mine.

Placer mining
Placer mining is a method of extracting gold from alluvial deposits such as sand, gravel, and sediment. These are known as placer deposits which are typically found in riverbeds, stream beds, and floodplains. These deposits typically contain minerals that are resistant to weathering and eroision like gold, platinum, diamonds, and more. They are characterized by their relatively high concentration of valuable minerals compared to the surrounding rock or sediments. Unlike hard-rock mining, which involves excavating solid rock formations, water or dredging is used to extract the gold.

Sluicing
Using a sluice box to extract gold from placer deposits has long been a very common practice in prospecting and small-scale mining. Sluices work on the principle that heavier particles will sink to the bottom of a stream, while those that are lighter will be carried downstream and expelled. A sluice box is essentially a man made channel with riffles set in the bottom. The riffles are designed to create dead zones in the current to allow gold to drop out of suspension. The box is placed in the stream to channel water flow. Gold-bearing material is placed at the top of the box. The material is carried by the current through the volt where gold and other dense material settles out behind the riffles. Less dense material flows out of the box as tailings.

Larger commercial placer mining operations employ screening plants, or trommels, to remove the larger alluvial materials such as boulders and gravel, before concentrating the remainder in a sluice box or jig plant. After the gold is sorted through trommels, it is then placed through regular sluice boxes for further sorting. These operations typically include diesel powered, earth moving equipment including excavators, bulldozers, wheel loaders, and rock trucks.

Dredging
Although this method has largely been replaced by modern methods, some dredging is done by small-scale miners using suction dredges. These are small machines that float on the water and are usually operated by one or two people. A suction dredge consists of a sluice box supported by pontoons, attached to a suction hose which is controlled by a miner working beneath the water. This method is particularly popular in areas where gold is found at river bottoms or submerge deposits. Suction dredging can have environmental impacts, moreso on aquatic habitats and water quality. Regulations and best practices are often in place to minimize these impacts. State dredging permits in many of the United States gold dredging areas specify a seasonal time period and area closures to avoid conflicts between dredgers and the spawning time of fish populations. Some US states, such as Montana, require an extensive permitting procedure, including permits.

Some large suction dredges [100 hp & 10 in] are used in commercial production throughout the world. Small suction dredges are much more efficient at extracting smaller gold than the old bucket line. This has improved the chances of finding gold. Smaller dredges with 2 to 4 in suction tubes are used to sample areas behind boulders and along potential pay streaks, until "colour" (gold) appears.

Other larger scale dredging operations take place on exposed river gravel bars at seasonal low water. These operations typically use a land based excavator to feed a gravel screening plant and sluice box floating in a temporary pond. The pond is excavated in the gravel bar and filled from the natural water table. "Pay" gravel is excavated from the front face of the pond and processed through the floating plant, with the gold trapped in the onboard sluice box and tailings stacked behind the plant, steadily filling in the back of the pond as the operation moves forward. This type of gold mining is characterized by its low cost, as each rock is moved only once. It also has low environmental impact, as no stripping of vegetation or overburden is necessary, and all process water is fully recycled. Such operations are typical on New Zealand's South Island and in the Klondike region of Canada.

Rocker box
Also called a cradle, a rocker box uses riffles located in a high-walled box to trap gold in a similar manner to the sluice box. A rocker box uses less water than a sluice box and is well suited for areas where water is limited. A rocking motion provides the water movement needed for the gravity separation of gold in placer material. Rocker boxes gained popularity during the California Gold Rush in the 19th century and remain in use today. Although simple and inexpensive, it is not efficient as the previously discussed mining techniques.

Cyanide process
The dominant method for refining gold is a cyanide extraction method, or gold cyanidation, introduced in the late 1800s. This a metallurgical technique used to extract gold from lower grade ores by converting gold into a water-soluble coordination complex. Finely ground rock is treated with a solution of sodium cyanide. The extract is absorbed onto carbon and then removed from the carbon with a solution of caustic soda and cyanide. Gold cyanide is then converted to relatively pure gold through gold parting.

There are many [https://earthworks.org/issues/environmental-impacts-of-gold-mining/#:~:text=Gold%20mining%20is%20one%20of,health%20of%20people%20and%20ecosystems. environmental hazards] associated with this extraction method, largely due to the high toxicity of the cyanide compounds. Furthermore, there are potentials for accidental spills or leaks to cause harm to aquatic ecosystems and human health. For example, in 2000, the Baia Mare cyanide spill in northern Romania released approximately 100000 m3 of waste water contaminated with heavy metal sludge and up to 120 LT of cyanide into the Tisza River.

Mercury process
Historically, mercury was used extensively in placer gold mining in order to form mercury-gold amalgam with smaller gold particles, and thereby increase the gold recovery rates. First, the gold ore is crushed and ground to a fine powder to expose the gold particles for amalgamation. Then, this finely ground ore is mixed with liquid mercury to amalgamate it. Mercury forms an amalgam, an alloy, with gold particles to allow for the efficient capture of gold from the ore. The gold is concentrated by boiling away the mercury from the amalgam. This process is called retorting. This is effective in extracting very small gold particles, but the process is hazardous due to the toxicity of mercury vapour. Large-scale use of mercury stopped in the 1960s. However, mercury is still used in artisanal and small-scale gold mining (ASGM).

Small operations
While most gold is produced by major corporations, there are an estimated 10 to 15 million small-scale artisanal gold miners worldwide. Around 4.5 million of them are women, and an estimated 600,000 children work in illegal artisanal gold mines. Artisanal miners use rudimentary methods to extract and process gold. Many of these people are mining to escape extreme poverty, unemployment and landlessness.

In Ghana, galamsey miners are estimated to number 20,000 to 50,000. In neighboring francophone countries, such workers are called orpailleurs. In Brazil, Venezuela, Suriname, and French Guiana, workers are called garimpeiros. These workers are not required to claim responsibility for their social and environmental impacts.

Miners risk government persecution, mine shaft collapses, and toxic poisoning from unsafe chemicals used in processing, such as mercury. For example, in Ghana during 2009, the Dompoase mine collapse killed 18 workers. It was the worst mining disaster in Ghanaian history.

Children in these mines suffer extremely harsh working conditions and various hazards such as collapsing tunnels, explosions, and chemical exposure. Children may be especially vulnerable to these hazards and many suffer from serious respiratory conditions, hearing, and vision problems.

Large companies
Gold mining by large multi-national corporations produces about 80% of the gold supply. Most gold is mined in developing nations. Large mining companies play a key role in globalisation of the economy by linking rich and poor companies. Newmont and Barrick Gold are the largest gold mining companies in the world, but there are many smaller corporations in the industry.

Local communities are frequently vulnerable to environmental degradation caused by large mining companies and may lack government protection or industry regulation. For example, thousands of people around Lega Dembi mine are exposed to mercury, arsenic, and other toxins resulting in widespread health problems and birth defects. Vulnerable communities may also lose their land to the mine. Some large companies have attempted to build local legitimacy through corporate responsibility initiatives and local development.

Environmental impacts
Gold mining can significantly alter the natural environment. Gold mining activities in tropical forests are increasingly causing deforestation along rivers and in remote areas rich in biodiversity. Mining has increased rainforest loss up to 70km beyond lease boundaries, causing nearly 11,670 km2 of deforestation between 2005 to 2015. Up to 9% of gold mining occurs outside of these regulated lease boundaries. Other gold mining impacts, particularly in aquatic systems with residual cyanide or mercury (used in the recovery of gold from ore), can be highly toxic to people and wildlife even at relatively low concentrations. Illegal gold mining exacerbates the ecological vulnerability of the remaining forest ultimately leading to permanent forest loss. Gold mining clears native forests for mineral extraction, but also indirectly facilitates access to more land and further clearing. Rainforest recovery rates are the lowest ever recorded for tropical forests, with there being little to no tree regeneration at abandoned mining camps, even after several years. The Amazon rainforest is at risk for 'savannization', which is the gradual transformation of a tropical rainforest into a savannah. This would ultimately lead to a collapse of biodiversity, ecosystems, and climate.

Gold mining produces more waste than mining of other minerals, because it can be mined at a lower grade. Tailings can contain lead, mercury, cadmium, and arsenic. These toxins can pose health risks for local communities. Arsenic is typically found in gold-containing ores, and gold processing may contaminate groundwater or the atmosphere. This pollution may persist for decades. Furthemore, mining operations use large quantities of water for processing ore and can result in the contamination of water sources with heavy metals, such as mercury and cyanide, used in the extraction process. This pollution can have detrimental effects on aquatic ecosystems and human heatlh. Soil degradation has also been found to be impacted by gold mining. Mining activities can disturb soil structure, leading to erosion, sedimentation of waterways, and loss of fertile land for agriculture or vegetation regrowth. More evidently, dust and emissions from mining machiner and processing facilities can contribute to air pollution, impacting air quality and potentially causings respiratory problems for nearby communities.

Social and cultural impacts
Large-scale gold mining projects may require land acquisition and resettlement of local communities, leading to displacement, loss of livelihoods, and disruption of traditional ways of life. In addition to the possible respiratory problems that could be acquired, individuals may be exposed to hazardous chemicals used in gold extraction such as mercury and cyanide. These chemicals pose risks to gold miners, communities, and wildlife; resulting in further medical problems involving neurological disorders and waterborne diseases.

Gold mining in some regions has been associated with conflicts over land rights, labour rights violations, and exploitation of vulnerable populations, including Indigenous peoples and artisanal miners. Mining activities can damage or destroy cultural heritage sites, artifacts, and sacred areas; further impacting cultural identities and heritages. In the Amazon rainforest, Indigenous peoples have been killed and had their rightfully owned land stolen from them. As a consequence of this, some have left the rainforest to move to cities which further puts them at risk to disease, homelessness, and poverty.

Artisanal gold mining is widespread across Africa, occurring in numerous countries including Ghana, Mali, Burkina Faso, Tanzania, Zimbabwe, and many others. For many individuals and communities in rural Africa, artisanal gold mining represents a critical source of income and livelihood, providing employment opportunities and economic support in regions with limited alternative options. Artisanal mining operations vary in scale, from individuals panning for gold in rivers and streams, to small groups working collectibely in informal mining camps, often referred to as 'galamsey' in West Africa.

Economic impacts
Gold mining can create employment opportunities in mining operations and related sectors. Howevers, these jobs may be temporary. The sector's reliance on fluctuating global gold prices can lead to economic stability for communities dependent on mining. The discovery of significant gold deposits in a region often sees a flood of resources and development, which lasts as long as the mines are economic. When goldfields begin to decline in production, local economies find themselves destabilised and overly reliant upon an industry that will inevitably abandon the region when gold deposits are sufficiently depleted; leaving the areas without proper rehabilitation.

The some instances, the 'resource curse' phenomenon may occur, where countries rich in natural resources, like gold, may experience economic challenges, corruption, inequality, and governence issues instead of sustained development. Despite the existence of several laws that regulate environmental crimes, illegal practices in mining tends to happen because of an absence of enforcement. The rules for gold mining create ambiguities between the types of 'legal' mining; leaving loopholes for those to exploit.

Global market impacts
Gold prices are subject to global market trands, economic uncertainties, and geopolitical factors. Fluctuation in gold prices can influence investment decisions, currency values, and trade balances in gold-producing and consuming countries. Furthermore, the global gold supply chain involves complex networks of mining companies, refineries, traders, and retailers. Ensuring ethical and sustainable practices throughout this supply chain, including addressing issues such as child labour and environmental degradation, remains a challenge.

Responses
Human Rights Watch produced a report in 2015 that outlined some of challenges faced globally. The report notes that "Thousands of children in the Philippines risk their lives every day mining gold. Children work in unstable 25-meter-deep pits that could collapse at any moment. They mine gold underwater, along the shore, or in rivers, with oxygen tubes in their mouths. They also process gold with mercury, a toxic metal, risking irreversible health damage from mercury poisoning."

Fairtrade and Fairmined dual certification for gold was launched across the United Kingdom on 14 February 2011, a joint scheme between The Fairtrade Foundation and The Association for Responsible Mining. The Fairmined mark ensures that the gold has been extracted in a fair and responsible manner. A UN investigation reported human rights abuses such as sexual exploitation of women and children, mercury poisoning, and child labor affecting communities where illegal gold production occurs. The reports said global buyers such as Switzerland, through which roughly two-thirds of global trade transits, need to ensure that human rights are respected throughout supply chains.

The "No Dirty Gold" campaign, working with a number of campaigning partners, was established in 2004 and aims "to ensure that gold mining operations respect human rights and the environment" through a call for changes in gold mining techniques and processes. The impacts of mining on the environment are long-lasting, and active land management and restoration are needed to ensure recovery. A barrier to the restoration of environments is cost. Limited funding is a major barrier in implementing commitments. Restoration costs vary widely between difference approaches, such as passive and active restoration. Additionally, governments have started to promote the formalization of gold mining. This formalization puts the government in a better position to govern the sectors, manage environmental impacts, and direct mining away from ecologically sensitive areas.

Peak gold
Peak gold is the date at which the maximum rate of global gold extraction is reached. According to Hubbert peak theory, after the peak, the rate of production declines until it approaches zero. Unlike petroleum, which is destroyed in use, gold can be reused and recycled.

Supply and demand
World gold demand (defined in terms of total consumption excluding central banks) in 2007 was 3,519 tonnes. Gold demand is subdivided into central bank reserve increases, jewellery production, industrial consumption (including dental), and investment (bars, coins, exchange-traded funds, etc.)

The supply of gold is provided by mining, official sales (typically gold by central banks), de-hedging (physical delivery of metal sold months before by mining companies on terminal markets), and old gold scraps. The total world supply of gold in 2007 was 3,497 tonnes. Gold production does not need to make up for gold demand because gold is a reusable resource. Currently, yearly gold mining produces 2% of the existing above-ground gold which is 158,000 tonnes (as of 2006). In 2008, gold mining produced 2,400 tonnes of gold, official gold sales close to 300 tonnes, and dehedging (physical delivery of metal sold months before by mining companies on terminal markets) close to 500 tonnes.

Timing of peak production
World mined gold production has peaked four times since 1900: in 1912, 1940, 1971, and 2001, which each peak being higher than previous peaks. The latest peak was in 2001, when production reached 2,600 metric tons, then declined for several years. Production started to increase again in 2009, spurred by high gold prices, and achieved record new highs each year from 2011 through 2015, when production reached 3,100 tonnes. Early estimates of 2016 gold production indicate that it was flat to 2015 production, at 3,100 tonnes.

In 2009, Barrick CEO Aaron Regent claimed that global production had peaked in 2000. Barrick's production costs have been "trending down" despite this peak, reaching 465 $/ozt. In 2006, with gold at 650 $/ozt, Roland Watson claimed that gold production had peaked in 2001 due to falling exploration in the 1990s, when gold prices were low. He predicted that higher prices and new technologies would boost gold production to higher levels in the future.

In July 2012, Natural Resource Holdings CEO Roy Sebag wrote a report entitled "2012 World Gold Deposit Ranking" claiming that gold production would peak between 2022 and 2025 due to the markedly lower grades and remote locations of the remaining known undeveloped deposits.

"'Consequently, the guaranteed depletion in the existing production mix coupled with a more realistic introduction of new mines into the mix (as opposed to our theoretical tomorrow scenario) makes it clear that barring multiple high-grade, multi-million ounce discoveries each year, a significant increase in gold production is unlikely. Moreover our calculations point towards gold production peaking at some point between 2022 and 2025 assuming the 90 million troy ounces [2,800 tonnes] per year figure is maintained.'"

Charles Jeannes, the CEO of Goldcorp, the world's largest gold miner by market capitalization, stated in September 2014 that Peak Gold would be reached in either 2014 or 2015. "Whether it is this year or next year, I don't think we will ever see the gold production reach these levels again," he claimed. "There are just not that many new mines being found and developed."

Economics of gold
The gold price compared to other valuable metals consistently holds its value and is less prone to price changes as other metals. Gold production tends to excel when there are turbulent market conditions with investors seeking a different investment opportunity outside the stock, bond or real estate markets. Some of the factors affecting gold prices are:

Central bank gold reserves
Central banks diversify their reserves with gold to protect the value of the dollar during challenging economic times. When banks are forced to print more money to prevent economic turmoil they are simultaneously devaluing the currency. Gold, unlike money, is a finite valuable material which can be used as a hedge against the inflation cause by increasing the money supply. Gold has this inverse relationship with the US dollar which is used as a reserve asset by many central banks thus protecting the central banks reserves when there is a dip in the US dollar or the money supply increases.

Value of the U.S. dollar
As mentioned above the value of the U.S. dollar is normally inversely related to the value of gold, this is because gold is dollar-denominated. When the U.S. dollar is stronger it tends to keep the price of gold lower and controlled and when there is a weaker U.S. dollar the price of gold is likely to increase as well as the demand for it.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Gold mining


text:
History of Suffolk

This article describes the history of Suffolk, the English county.

Anglo-Saxon control
The county of Suffolk (Sudfole, Suthfolc, meaning 'southern folk') was formed from the south part of the kingdom of East Anglia which had been settled by the Angles in the latter half of the 5th century. The most important Anglo-Saxon settlements appear to have been made at Sudbury and Ipswich. Before the end of the Norman dynasty, strongholds had arisen at Eye, Clare, Walton and Framlingham. Probably the establishment of Suffolk as a separate shire was scarcely completed before the Conquest, and although it was reckoned as distinct from Norfolk in the Domesday Survey of 1086, the fiscal administration of Norfolk and Suffolk remained under a single sheriff until 1575. The boundary of the county has undergone very little change, though its area has been considerably affected by coast erosion. Parts of Gorleston and Thetford, which formerly belonged to the ancient county of Suffolk, are now within the administrative county of Norfolk, and other slight alterations of the administrative boundary have been made. Under the Local Government Act of 1888 Suffolk was divided into the two administrative counties of East and West Suffolk.

Land division
At first the whole shire lay within the diocese of Dunwich which was founded approximately 631. In 673 a new bishopric was established at Elmham to comprise the whole of Norfolk which had formerly been included in the see of Dunwich. The latter came to an end with the incursion of the Danes, and on the revival of Christianity in this district Suffolk was included in the diocese of Elmham, subsequently removed from South Elmham to Thetford and thence to Norwich. The archdeaconry of Sudbury was transferred by the ecclesiastical commissioners to the diocese of Ely. This archdeaconry had been separated from the original archdeaconry of Suffolk in 1127. In 1256 the latter included thirteen deaneries which have since been subdivided, so that-at present it contains eighteen deaneries; Sudbury archdeaconry which comprised eight deaneries in 1256 included eleven in 1911. There were also three districts under jurisdiction of Canterbury and one under that of Rochester.

The shire court was held at Ipswich. In 1831 the whole county contained twenty-one hundreds and three municipal boroughs. Most of these hundreds were identical with those of the Domesday Survey, but in 1086 Babergh was rated as two hundreds, Cosford, Ipswich and Parham as half hundreds and Samford as a hundred and a half. Hoxne hundred was formerly known as Bishops hundred and the vills which were included later in Thredling hundred were within Claydon hundred in 1086. Two large ecclesiastical liberties extended over more than half of the county; that of St Edmund included the hundreds of Risbridge, Thedwastre, Thingoe, Cosford, Lackford and Blackbourn in which the kings writ did not run, and St Aethelreda of Ely claimed a similar privilege in the hundreds of Carleford, Colneis, Plumesgate, Loes, Wilford and Thredling. Among others who had large lands in the county with co-extensive jurisdiction were the lords of the honor of Clare, earls of Gloucester and Hereford and the lords of the honor of Eye, held successively by the Bigods, the Uffords and the De la Poles, earls of Suffolk. The Wingfields, Bacons and Herveys have been closely connected with the county.

For the purposes of civil government the Liberty of Saint Edmund and the remainder (or "body") of the county were quite distinct, each providing a separate grand jury to the county assizes. The county was further divided into "geldable" land, in which fines and forfeitures were payable to the Crown, and the liberties and franchises where they were payable to the lord of the liberty. The geldable lands were divided into two quarter sessions divisions: Bungay (Hundreds of Blything, Mutford And Launditch and Wangford); and Ipswich (Bosmere and Claydon, Hartismere, Hoxne, Samford and Stow). The liberty of St Ethelredra held sessions at Woodbridge while those of the St Edmund were held at Bury St Edmunds. By the early nineteenth century these were being referred to simply as Beccles, Bury St Edmunds, Ipswich and Woodbridge Divisions. The three quarter sessions divisions of Beccles, Ipswich and Woodbridge were combined to form a single division in 1860. From that date Suffolk had eastern and western divisions with sessions held at Ipswich and Bury St Edmunds respectively. These became the basis for the two administrative counties of East Suffolk and West Suffolk in 1890.

Danelaw through English Civil War
Suffolk suffered severely from Danish incursions, and after the Treaty of Wedmore became a part of the Danelagh. In 1173 the Earl of Leicester landed at Walton with an army of Flemings and was joined by Hugh Bigod against Henry II. In 1317 and the succeeding years a great part of the county was in arms for Thomas of Lancaster. Queen Isabella and Mortimer having landed at Walton found all the district in their favour. In 1330 the county was raised to suppress the supporters of the Earl of Kent; and again in 1381 there was a serious rising of the peasantry chiefly in the neighbourhood of Bury St Edmunds. Although the county was for the most part Yorkist it took little part in the Wars of the Roses. In 1525 the artisans of the south strongly resisted Henry VIII's forced loan. It was from Suffolk that Mary Tudor drew the army which supported her claim to the throne. In the Civil Wars the county was for the most part parliamentarian, and joined the Association of the Eastern Counties for defence against the Papists.

Politics and economy
The county was constantly represented in parliament by two knights from 1290, until the Reform Bill of 1832 gave four members to Suffolk, at the same time disfranchising the boroughs of Dunwich, Orford and Aldeburgh. Suffolk was early among the most populous of English counties, doubtless owing to its proximity to the continent. Fishing fleets have left its ports to bring back cod and ling from Iceland and herring and mackerel from the North Sea. From the 14th to the 17th century it was among the chief manufacturing counties of England owing to its cloth-weaving industry, which was at the height of its prosperity during the 15th century. In the 17th and 18th centuries its agricultural resources were utilized to provide the rapidly growing metropolis with food. In the following century various textile industries, such as the manufacture of sail-cloth, coconut fibre, horse-hair and clothing were established; silk-weavers migrated to Suffolk from Spitalfields, and early in the 19th century an important china factory flourished at Lowestoft.

Relics
Of monastic remains the most important are those of the great Benedictine abbey of Bury St Edmunds; the college of Clare, originally a cell to Bec Abbey in Normandy and afterwards to St Peters Westminster, converted into a college of secular canons in the reign of Henry VI, still retaining much of its ancient architecture, and now used as a boarding-school; the Decorated gateway of the Augustinian order priory of Butley; and the remains of the Grey Friars monastery at Dunwich.

A peculiarity of the church architecture is the use of flint for purposes of ornamentation, often of a very elaborate kind, especially on the porches and parapets of the towers. Another characteristic is the round towers, which are confined to East Anglia, but are considerably more numerous in Norfolk than in Suffolk, the principal being those of Little Saxham and Herringfleet, both good examples of Norman. It is questionable whether there are any remains of pre-Norman architecture in the county. The Decorated is well represented, but by far the greater proportion of the churches are Perpendicular Gothic, fine examples of which are so numerous that it is hard to select examples although the church of Blythburgh in the east and the exquisite ornate building at Lavenham in the west may be noted as typical, while the church of Long Melford, another fine example, should be mentioned on account of its remarkable lady chapel.

Remains of old castles include part of the walls of Bungay, the ancient stronghold of the Bigods; the picturesque ruins of Mettingham, built by John de Norwich in the reign of Edward III; Wingfield, surrounded by a deep moat, with the turret walls and the drawbridge still existing; the splendid ruin of Framlingham, with high and massive walls, founded in the 6th century, but restored in the 12th; the outlines of the extensive fortress of Clare Castle, anciently the baronial residence of the Earls of Clare; and the fine Norman keep of Orford Castle, on an eminence overlooking the sea. Among the many fine residences within the county there are several interesting examples of domestic architecture of the reigns of Henry VIII and Elizabeth I. Hengrave Hall (c. 1530), north-west from Bury St Edmunds, is a noteworthy example an exceedingly picturesque building of brick and stone, enclosing a courtyard. Another is Helmingham Hall, a Tudor mansion of brick, surrounded by a moat crossed by a drawbridge. West Stow Manor is also Tudor; its gatehouse is fine, but the mansion has been adapted into a farmhouse.

The county has a number of Martello towers along its stretch of coastline, most of which were constructed during the first decade of the 19th century to guard against a potential invasion by Napoleon Bonaparte's France.

title: History of Suffolk


text:
License-free software

License-free software is computer software that is not explicitly in the public domain, but the authors appear to intend free use, modification, distribution and distribution of the modified software, similar to the freedoms defined for free software.

Examples
Examples of license-free software formerly included programs written by Daniel J. Bernstein, such as qmail, djbdns, daemontools, and ucspi-tcp. Bernstein held the copyright and distributed these works without license until 2007. From December 28, 2007, onwards, he started placing his software in the public domain with an explicit waiver statement.

Additionally, small scripts are frequently released without specifying a license. For example, the website Userscripts.org hosts more than 52,000 Greasemonkey user scripts, the majority of which have no specified license. Similarly, GitHub reported in 2015 that 85% of the projects it hosts are unlicensed.

Rights for users
On his Software users' rights web page, Bernstein explains his belief that under the terms of copyright law itself software users are always allowed to modify software for their personal use, regardless of license agreements. He says '"If you think you need a license from the copyright holder, you've been bamboozled by Microsoft. As long as you're not distributing the software, you have nothing to worry about."''

He also says that software users are allowed to back up, compile, and run the software that they possess.

He further says that "since it's not copyright infringement for you to apply a patch, it's also not copyright infringement for someone to give you a patch," noting the case of Galoob v. Nintendo as precedent. Thus modified versions of license-free software can legally be distributed in source code form in whatever way that the original can, by distributing a patch alongside it.

Reception and discussion
Advocates of license-free software, such as Bernstein, argue that software licenses are harmful because they restrict the freedom to use software, and copyright law provides enough freedom without the need for licenses. Though having some restrictions, these licenses allow certain actions that are disallowed by copyright laws in some jurisdictions. If a license tries to restrict an action allowed by a copyright system, by Bernstein's argument those restrictions can be ignored. In fact, Bernstein's "non-license" of verbatim retransmission of source code is very similar in nature.

Similar positions on licenses are voiced by Free culture activist Nina Paley in 2010.

In 2013 Luis Villa argued similarly negative about the license usage of "open source", when the small number projects licensed on GitHub were noticed, identifying a "Post Open Source movement against the (license) permission culture".

title: License-free software


text:
Talk:John Glenn

Epstein paragraph
Why is the paragraph about Jeffrey Epstein included here? I get that it's sourced, but it boils down to "Glenn flew on one of his airplanes once." Its inclusion seems like an effort to imply something that isn't supported by sources. Argento Surfer (talk) 19:33, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

 * That paragraph insignificant and should be completely removed. However, John Glenn is such an important subject that I feel hesitant to make anything other than minor edits to his page myself. SilverCobweb (talk) 16:01, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah...the fact that Glenn one time flew on an Epstein plane...this biographical article is incredibly long and editors have discretion and rely on editorial consensus as to what should/should not or what can possibly be included in articles. We can't stuff every factoid about Glenn into this article. I agree, this mention about him at the trial is not notable enough to include in the Personal life section. I've removed the content, if anyone disagrees, let's discuss. Shearonink (talk) 17:39, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Context is king, and this factoid is purposeful innuendo inserted for political effect. It does nothing to contextualize Glenn's life. Ariwen (talk) 03:50, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Should the infobox picture be from the 1960s rather than his Senate portrait?
Glenn is more notable for his NASA career than his political career; and I think the picture in the infobox should reflect that. I'd suggest replacing it with his NASA portrait, Saltywalrusprkl (talk) 16:58, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Glenn's notability when he was an astronaut and when he was a US Senator...I think his official Senate photo is fine in the infobox, his life didn't end when he was an astronaut.Shearonink (talk) 17:42, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Engineer?
The lead states that Glenn was an engineer - but his undergraduate degree was in chemistry, and he spent most of his adut life as an pilot, astronaut, or politician. He has an honorary doctorate in engineering, but an honorary degree does not make one an engineer. 71.11.5.2 (talk) 19:48, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

 * I'm sorry if I'm not understanding, but where in the lead does it say that Glenn was an engineer? GoldRomean (talk) 22:36, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I removed it. You saw it before I could note it here. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:53, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Ok. Thanks. GoldRomean (talk) 23:06, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Chinese Civil War?
It sounds like Glenn was very briefly involved in the Chinese Civil War, but not to nearly the same degree as WWII or the Korean War (which get subsections under Military Career, while CCV does not). I think listing his battles/wars as "World War II, Chinese Civil War, Korean War" or saying "Glenn was a distinguished fighter pilot in World War II, the Chinese Civil War and the Korean War" is a bit misleading.

Instead, I would favor just listing "World War II and the Korean War," with a note somewhere under military service that Glenn "was briefly involved in attacking communist forces during the Chinese civil war but served mainly as a flying instructor." See: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/dec/08/john-glenn-obituary Mosi Nuru (talk) 01:15, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

 * Listing the Chinese Civil War is not misleading, and is in line with other military biography articles. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  02:06, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Listing it under the "Battles/Wars" segment of his banner may be normal practice, but listing it in the second paragraph of the article may be.
 * For instance: Dwight D. Eisenhower was involved in the Mexican Border War, but that war is not mentioned in his opening blurb (though it is mentioned in his banner). I think the Glenn situation is comparable. Mosi Nuru (talk) 02:21, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Replace "politician" with "U.S. senator"
Replace "politician" with "U.S. senator" in first sentence, as this office appears to be the only office Glenn sought and achieved, while "politician" is needlessly nonspecific. I don't yet have the credentials to make the edit.Ariwen (talk) 03:54, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

 * This is a reasonable suggestion, and I briefly made it before reverting--the problem is that the next sentence identifies Glenn as "a U.S. Senator from Ohio," so calling him a "senator" in the first sentence as well is redundant. I do think the opening paragraph could be reworded, but it'll take more than just swapping that one word. Mosi Nuru (talk) 06:07, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:John Glenn