text:
Talk:Métis in Canada

Page move
I moved this page here for the reason given at Talk:Métis. John FitzGerald 01:15, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Black Scots?
Is there a source for this term? I've done considerable reading on Metis history and have not come across it anywhere else. I doubt its validity, the anglo-metis peoples were commonly known as countryborn, native english, mixed bloods, halfbreeds, or by francophones as les metis anglais during the 19th century. Wyldkat 9:08, 12, Nov 2006

I've heard 'black' used as a nickname for one trapper in Canada who spoke metis. Via my extended family from the Iceland-Canadian settlements I've heard mention of a relative as "Black John" who took Metis as his second language as a career decision, first language being Icelandic. AnimalNorth (talk) 14:36, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Bunge?
I seem to remember a language called Bunge or Bungee (pronounced BUN-gee?) which was a mixture of Cree/Obibway and Scot Gaelic spoken by Metis of Scottish origin. Anyone know anything about it? I can't find a thing online, but I thought it might be worth a mention on here. Although, perhaps the lack of evidence is proof it shouldn't be mentioned..... CWood 23:54, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Article has been written, maybe by you who knows: Bungee; could probably use expansion, more examples if anyone has any.Skookum1 17:40, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

IPA
I've changed the SAMPA to IPA and removed the convertIPA template. But I'm not at all convinced that the second suggested pronunciation of the French can be correct. By the way I've not added the IPA notice template, on the assumption that it's redundant when using the IPA template (so that the characters should display correctly). Any views on this? rossb 23:45, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * The second pronunciation was provided as an example of how Métis say it when speaking French (as opposed to Mechif). The note explaining that was removed. If the transcription is wrong it's my fault. Should be like the pronunciation in français de France but with short vowels replacing long. John FitzGerald 19:34, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * The way the pronunciations are written is probably confusing/ambiguous to many readers. . ..

Eastern Métis
This article only contains information on the Western Métis (i.e. from Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, and British Columbia) with no information on the Eastern Métis (i.e. from Labrador, Quebec, et cetera). As I understand it, they are two seperate but related peoples with different cultures and histories. I don't feel I know enough about them to add to them to this article, but if anyone else does know more, please add it. --Lesouris 17:09, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

 * That's because there are no Métis organisations east of Ontario, which means the so-called Métis in those areas likely do not meet all the requirements of the MNC definition. --Kmsiever 05:00, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

 * There is the Corporation métisse du Québec et de l'Est du Canada : http://www.metisduquebec.ca/

 * There is indeed a great number of people who identify with their metis origins but do not fit the requirements to be considered Métis by the Métis of the West. -- Mathieugp 15:06, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

 * I should have been clearer. What I meant is that there are no Métis organisations east of Ontario recognised by the Métis National Council. There's more to being Métis than simplying thinking you are Métis. --Kmsiever 16:17, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Métis people do not only include those recognized by the Métis National Council. I suggest we take a hint from The Encyclopedia Canada and have a section for Eastern Métis and another for Western Métis. I wonder whether we should further split Eastern Métis into Atlantic Métis and Québec Métis (or franco-métis? They also exist in Ontario so I hesitate franco-métis may be a preferred term). Murmullo (talk) 17:02, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I am from Montreal and learned in Histoire du Quebec and Canada that Métis meant a child born from a French Canadian man and an indian woman so whan I moved to Alberta and learned that there was a "Métis" nations, I was very confused. From my limited research the Métis Nation in the Prairies region of Canada have a distinct culture demonstrated by distinct art and language (Mischif). The Métis in the West also had their own settlements and villages. I am trying to learn more about the Métis in Quebec, I think their they were simply assimilated into the aboriginal or French community. I did have another question, did the Alberta Métis have any ukrainian influence? I thought I read that at the Alberta Museum but may be confused... Raisaroo -- 18:54, December 12, 2005 (Mountain time)

"Constitutionally Recognized" Western Métis? Sorry, I don't find this in any legal document referring ot the Métis Nation, except those limited publications of the MNC. I would suggest removing this "constitutionally recognized" unless someone here can provide a citation from the Constitution Act or a formal treaty stating that Métis are one and the same with Western Métis. Have also spoken to colleagues at INA about this and no support for these claims. Also, you should have mentioned the CAP which was the forerunner to the MNC and continues today to serve Métis interests. Neutral point of view is policy on Wikipedia. --Gunnar--

 * This organization claims there are Quebec and Eastern Canadian Métis which have been forgotten by history:

 * http://www.metisduquebec.ca/

 * I believe that, living so close to the large Franco-Catholic population of the St-Lawrence and the Maritimes, the Eastern Métis were indeed assimilated to those who call themselves Québécois or Acadiens today. The others got categorized as Natives. -- Mathieugp 03:11, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

 * Raisaroo, I'm not 100% certain of your question, but the Alberta Métis predate Ukrainian Canadians by a good 100 years. Ukrainians arrived in Western Canada in the late 19th Century, while Métis were in the area basically from the first fur trade forts in the late 1700's.  The two groups did live side by side in numerous instances, but I'd stop short of saying that the Métis were influenced by the Ukrainians. CWood 03:59, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Thankyou, that is helpful. Raisaroo -- 16:37, January 10, 2006 (Mountain time)

I once met a Metis speaking traveler from the N.W. territories, who claimed Ukranian and Inuit descent, he did not speak English, but did speak Russian and Ukranian. That was decades ago he must of been from a very remote place we communicated in broken French. I can't verify this with documentation, but maybe others like this exist in the region. AnimalNorth (talk) 14:47, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I looked into it again and found something that comfirms ukrainian influence on Métis music : "Tunes adopted from Ukrainian, Swedish, Icelandic and English settlers also entered the prairie repertoire from the late 1800s on." After reflecting on this, I think there is a simpler reason for my confusion. Cultural artifacts from Métis people were probably showcased at the same time as Ukrainian artifacts. Further the floral designs on the Métis clothing are reminiscent of floral designs found in Eastern Europe. Raisaroo (talk) 15:45, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

The Powley Ruling in 2003 (Supreme Court of Canada) was a landmark decision in terms of legally recognizing the existence of Metis in eastern Canada; essentially the court said that although the definition of Metis does not apply to just anyone of mixed aboriginal and european heritage, it does apply to people of mixed heritage with distinct customs and traditions recognizable to the group's identity and separate from both their aboriginal and european forebears. The Powley Decision conferred aboriginal rights specifically to a group is Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario but left the door open for other self-identified Metis groups (like those in Quebec and Labrador) to pursue formal recognition.Caribougrrl 20:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm pleased to inform you that there is a large Metis community in Atlantic Canada. There are at least 6 different council's that I am aware of and thats just in Nova Scotia. my home council has a population of several hundred. They are legally recognized by the Government of Canada... however they are not recogized by the Metis National Council(which is a western organisation), which is not, in fact, a national council established by the Government, but rather is a self appointed group who has determined for themselves who is and isn't Metis. Most groups outside of the MNC do not consider the MNC claim on legitimacy to be the sole claim on the Metis name.http://www.geocities.com/nsmetis/ - Confederacy of Nova Scotia Metis Website. --JHenryHubbard 18:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)--

People in the East are considered to be metis (with a lower case 'm' denoting that they are merely mixed). The Metis in the West are referred to in the proper form. Being a cultural group has nothing to do with the mixing of cultures. Being mixed Indian and European does not make one play the fiddle, speak Michif, wear a sash, or any of the cultural markers of the Metis. The Metis culture is marked by language, systems of governance, economic background, cohesion, and a declaration of being a nation, that is distinct from both European and First Nation people's. If one thinks that Metis people are merely mixed, they have completely missed the boat altogether. Metis specifically refers to those people who have links to the historic Metis communities of the prairies that rose up against the government of Canada in an inter-nation struggle for autonomy. This is why the MNC, and Metis in the West do not agree with there being a Metis in the East, but a metis. Having these two articles together compromises the identity and leads to further false claims to there being a Metis in the East, of which there is no visible culture of history that makes them a distinct people from any other group in the East. Being Metis has three legs to it for membership as well: having lineage to the Historic Metis Communities, being accepted as part of the nation by the community, and being self-identified. If one fails in one of these areas they are not Metis, which I am sure almost all of the Metis in the East would fail. It is a well known fact that the establishment of a European presence in the St. Lawrence River Valley was marked by wide spread metissage, and this definetly means that a large majority of people living in the east have a mixed ancestry blood. This doesn't make them a distinct culture, and therefore does not make them a distinct nation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.17.56.14 (talk) 21:03, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I found a lot of answers to the topics above here: :
 * quote (page 70): Canada's Metis were formally recognized as an aboriginal people in section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982
 * quote (page 70): There is no general agreement on criteria for an exact definition
 * quote (page 70):some western Candians hold that Metis are only those who can trace their ancestry to the Red River settlement
 * from page 70: explains why sometimes metis was defined as having one aboriginal grandparent
 * quote (page 71):one proposed definition would include persons with any degree of Amerindian blood who are not registed on a reserve
 * page 71: why often metis meant aboriginal mother and white father - native status was not passed through mother
 * page 71: explains the whole Quebec issue. Quote:the policy of creating one nation discouraged the emergence of a separate Metis identity during the French regime. .... thus, mixed-blood children identified with one side or the other of their heritage
 * page 72 and onwards: explains the western front developpement of the Metis and the creation of a seperate cultural identity.

My conclusion is that we have to talk about Eastern Metis as distinct from Western Metis. There is a completely different understanding as to what it means to be Metis due to a different environment and history. This is further complicated by the complexe relationship between aboriginal people and colonialists. Murmullo (talk) 22:26, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

There is no historic Métis communities in Canada’s east that is recognized by the Provinces, the Federal Government, Canada’s courts of law, or the historic Métis Nation. There are people who have recently begun self identifying as “Métis” since the Powley and Daniels SCC decisions in those areas requesting hunting rights, resource access, and opposing legitiment Indigenous land claims. They have formed organizations that arrogate Métis identity and Métis cultural symbols for their own gain. But that have no connection to the historic Métis culture that developed in the Red River prior to European control. The people of the east are more properly described as people with métis heritage who practiced the culture of either parent or a combination of the two. This page is filled with inaccuracies and unsupported statements that further spread this misinformation. In attempting to clean this up, I’m accused of “disruptive editing.” Ridiculous! MétisJim (talk) 21:35, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I said that your edits were WP:POV. I have asked for input from WP:CANBOARD Meters (talk) 21:43, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Let's start with the basics....as in where we first appear READ ME.--Moxy (talk) 21:51, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Merge?
How come there's a separate article for the word Métis? The modern ethnic group in North America is already dealt with in Métis people, and the use of this French word to refer to people elsewhere is explained under Mestizo. If that article is intended to refer to anyone of part-French ancestry from Indochina to the Pacific to the Caribbean, then I think it should be much more explicit about that. //Big Adamsky 21:34, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

 * This article is about the political organization and distinct heritage of the "traditional Metis", as opposed to Canadian constitutional language's use of the word to mean "anyone of proven native and non-native lineage", what we used to be able to call a halfbreed. The Metis Nation does not include a lot of the latter people, who have no links to the particular mixing of peoples in the Prairies and adjoining regions of BC and ON that produced a distinct culture and people; who are the Metis Nation.  Confusingly "Metis" does not necessarily mean only members of the "Metis Nation".  Myself I'm a bit taken aback to see BC included among their "homeland" as the Metis Nation were only involved in early BC as employees of the fur companies and hirelings of the explorers; some may have been out here ("out here" means on this side of the mountains) but I guess they mean up in the Peace River Block - our chunk of the Prairies.Skookum1 17:06, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Population
It was blank, so I put in the # my book said. Cameron Nedland 04:47, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Paul Martin
Is he really partially Metis? I have not read anything like that about him from any of the websites. Can someone please verify or confirm this fact? AWDRacer 20:53, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Recognition
I don't believe that the Canadian government recognized the Metis until after the rebellion had been underway for quite some time. The statement stating that the feds had already recognized them as a legitimate government is incorrect, I believe. Please confirm or disprove. Homagetocatalonia 10:27, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

The Metis drew up a Bill of Rights during the Red River Resistance. One of the provisions of the Bill of Rights that when a people have no responsible government to govern them, as had happened when the HBC had moved out of the area, and Canada had not yet moved in, a people have the right to govern themselves. Since the Bill of Rights was what was used to create dialogue with the Government of Canada over the confederation of the postage stamp province, Manitoba, this makes the claim of them being a legitimate government valid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.17.56.14 (talk) 21:11, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Clarify?
The article says that the Metis were the first to use saddles. That is certainly not true worldwide, and that should be clarified.195.221.241.130 19:33, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Saddles?
I too came here to comment on the following ''Metis people were famous for their horsemanship and breeding of horses. They were the first people to use saddles and to have horse races. '' Does the author mean the first of the indigenous peoples? If not, then this statement about 'the first people to use saddles and to have horse races' must be wrong, as europeans bought the horse to america in the 15th century.

The Metis people didn't even exist until the seventeenth century-- a few thousand years after the development of saddles. I'm assuming that horseraces date back to antiquity. I'm taking this out Stevecudmore 21:02, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all Infobox Ethnic group infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:12, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Métis people (Canada) and Métis people (USA)
What's the rationale? The Sioux have a borderland history much like the Métis' (see David G. McCrady, Living with Strangers: The Nineteenth-Century Sioux and the Canadian-American Borderlands (Lincoln, NE: University of Nebraska Press, 2006)), but Wikipedia doesn't have separate articles for "Sioux (Canada)" and "Sioux (USA)". The Métis have traditionally lived close to the national border and crossed it frequently. It would make more sense to have one article on "Métis people" with a section on "Métis experiences in the United States." Llajwa 20:39, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, this is puzzling to me as well. Considering how poor the Métis people (USA) article is, I see no reason there should not be a merger of both articles, to be renamed Métis people (North America).  Any thoughts? ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  21:12, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I've placed a mergeto tag on the USA page, I totally agree, it would just be duplicated content. I don't even see the need to put (North America). Just calling it Métis people should suffice. -- Chabuk [ T • C ] 20:13, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Slightly oppose - something to keep in mind is that in Canada, Metis are considered an aboriginal people. They have a distinct culture. In the USA, most of the use of the term Metis refers to people of indigenous and non-indigenous backgrounds. There is rarely any cultural component, and virtually no common tie in. If the two articles are merged, this distinction should be emphasized in the new article. --Kmsiever 21:59, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Are there good sources on this? My sense was that some US communities that are genealogically linked to Canadian Metis, like the Turtle Mountain people (mixed French-Ojibwa-Cree, speak Mitchif), call themselves Indians rather than Metis. (See Gerhard J. Ens, “After the Buffalo: The Reformulation of the Turtle Mountain Metis Community, 1879-1905,” in New Faces of the Fur Trade (1998), 139-152.) Llajwa 22:38, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I have added the mergefrom tag to this article to complete the proposal. I support the merger, and I understand your concerns Kmsiever, though I agree with Llajwa that there is commonality between the Métis in the US and those in Canada.  Any differences in terminology can be dealt with in the "new" article.  You are probably right, Chabuk, that the (North America) is unnecessary, I am simply uncertain as to whether the term "métis" is used anywhere else in the world. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  23:55, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * So, where are we on this question, folks? Overall, the feeling was that this should be done, provided that it is done right.  So, shall we? ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  03:31, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

 * Oppose merge. Distinct history, different political status. --Qyd 22:31, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose as well, for the reasons set out by Qyd. The Métis have a distinct status and historic role in Canada.  Skeezix1000 12:19, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose, in concurrance with Qyd. Cross-border ethno articles are sometimes inherently problematic and require separate articles (the Okanagan people, Ktunaxa and Blackfoot article(s) further cases in point.  Different histories, constitutionalities, different social and cultural realities.  An equivalent would be to make Cajun and Acadian a merge...Skookum1 19:24, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose for the reasons Skookum stated. Fremte 00:25, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

 * Oppose merge. Different countries, different history. --Mayfare 02:30, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * ""Oppose"" merge. While they are not a distinct phenomena, in particular Canadians know the metis people to have the ancestry and history that is laid out in the article, the U.S. article can't be substantiated by blending, needs its own contributions of specific history, etc.NewMind 07:14, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Quebec
Why is Quebec not mentioned at all (except in the name of an external link)? Badagnani (talk) 02:07, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation
"The Métis (pronounced /ˈmeɪtɨs/ "MAY-tis" in English" must surely be wrong: the citation for this statement is the Oxford English Dictionary, but that has to be of only marginal relevance given that the vast majority of Métis are in Canada. In my current overseas location I don't have a current Oxford Canadian Dictionary or other Canadian reference text at hand but I certainly well recall the universal merriment that greeted former premier Ross Thatcher of Saskatchewan pronouncing the word as the Wikipedia article suggests is correct ("Métis at Tim Horton's for coffee eh?") The OED is British English; it is Canadian English that is appropriate here. Masalai (talk) 05:41, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

 * I have to agree with this. All the Métis I know pronounce it "MAY•tee". I don't know a single person who pronounces it "MAY•tis". --Kmsiever (talk) 06:00, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Culture:finger weaving
Prior to my edit the article described the Ceinture fléchée sash as being "made by [sic] of yarn 'woven with one's fingers.'" The latter phrase was a 'Text to display' aliased link to an as-yet-nonexistent article titled 'finger weaving', and as such looked rather odd on the page, being displayed in red type, yet not looking like a very likely prospective article title! (Technical: Should Wikimedia use alias text with a 'faux' link?)

That phrasing ("one's fingers") also seemed to imply (rather improbably) that the wearer must have fashioned the article himself. After cleaning up the wording (retaining the link to a future 'finger weaving') article, I was left with several questions. The factual questions are;

The term seems to imply weaving without the use of a loom. Is it possible and practical to weave a long strip of fabric in an elaborate pattern without a two-dimensional holding fixture? Is this a real technique?

Is it a traditional technique for making Ceinture fléchée sashes?

Has a similar technique been used elsewhere?

The organizational question is this; If this technique is used elsewhere there may be a need for the proposed finger weaving article, but if it is in fact used for and is unique to the Ceinture fléchée, shouldn't the technique section of that article be the place to describe it, rather than in a separate article?

Mrnatural (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 17:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

This whole article needs to be written by a Metis person. Of course fingerweaving was done by a person, and without a loom. Thats why it is called fingerweaving! The sash is a traditional article.... so of course its a traditional technique. Fingerweaving may be used else where, but the designs, colours, and symbolism are wholly Metis, and is a cornerstone of the culture (why would you seperate something so integral to a culture in a separate article). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.17.56.14 (talk) 23:29, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree, the article needs to be scrutinized by someone who is Metis. As for the "finger weaving" comment. There should be an article in regard to this art form in general. Examples of finger woven sashes, bags, and other items can be found not only in the Americas, but in Australia, Borneo, and Africa. There ar numerous sources for information on techniques, uses at contact (European), and ethnic style/ use. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.133.216.50 (talk) 16:39, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

 * Finger weaving was a common form of weaving among Native Americans/First Nations. Here are a few articles both on technique and the significance of the sash to the Métis. Today the Métis sash is woven on a loom.
 * Native American Finger Weaving in the Eastern Forestshttp: //www.nativetech.org/finger/belts.html Fingerweaving - Part 1  http://www.nativetech.org/seminole/sashes/instructions.php  Fingerwoven Sashes and Garters http://www.nativetech.org/seminole/sashes/index.php

 * Métis sash maker has special creations for the Year of the Métis http://www.saskvalleynews.com/2010/04/metissashmaker/ The Metis Sash  http://www.killarneyhistory.com/minj2003sash.html  Métis Sash http://www.metisnation.org/culture--heritage/symbols-and-traditions.aspx   Niineta (talk) 05:19, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm coming to this conversation late, and my comment may be moot now, but just to clear up any confusion people unacquainted with « le fléché » may have: it's really an extremely complex form of braiding. In English it's called "finger weaving" to distinguish it from loom-and-shuttle, over-under textile manufacture, but the real difference is the bending and/or twisting of the strands around each other, which produces the titular "arrowheads" in the finished product.

The ceinture fléchée is essentially a very wide, flat braid, produced not by interweaving strands into a grid configuration, but by twisting them around each other; strictly-speaking, it isn't woven at all. If you think of it in those terms, you won't get trapped trying to imagine a possible difference between "finger" weaving and other kinds of weaving. FWIW. Laodah 19:01, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

POV/contradictory wording
The opening says this:
 * ''The Métis are descendants of marriages of Cree, Ojibway, Algonquin, Saulteaux, and Menominee aboriginals to Europeans,

While in the "little-M Metis" section it says this:
 * ''Little 'm' métis refers to those who are of mixed native and other ancestry, and is essentially a racial definition. Big 'M' Métis refers to a particular sociocultural heritage and an ethnic self-identification that is not entirely racially based.

Both of the statements in the second item are clearly synthesis, i.e. analysis unsupported by documentation and imputed by the contributor's own notions/ideas. But how can a definition based in a "particular sociocultural heritage and...ethnic self-identification NOT be racially-based?? If someone is part-Tlingit and part-Norwegian, or part-Secwepemc and part-Ukrainian, but not part-Ojibway/part-Norwegian or part-Saulteaux/part-Ukrainian, how is that not a racial distinction??.  Small-m metis are how "we" (non-aboriginals) are supposed to refer to "halfbreeds" now, since that term has been adjudged to be racist/offensive.  Distinguishing between capital-M Metis and small-m Metis is what seems clearly to be "racially based", not the other way around.  I respect that the constitutional guarantees for Metis that were made in recent years were meant as a redress for the historic Metis community, but we were told (the rest of us) that "metis" would now mean all'' peoples of proven part-aboriginal heritage, not just from specific traditional-Metis aboriginal iineages  Cree, Ojibway, Algonquin, Saulteaux, and Menominee - or the traditional Scots or Irish or French Canadian "European" heritage - "small-e european" perhaps, to distinguish from the older meaning of European). Matter of fact, I have a friend who does have a Metis card but who is not from the stated exclusive groups - her aboriginal ancestors were Kwantlen. In light of this, much of the content of this article seems POV, as discriminating against people who are constitutionally Metis, or might be, because they are not from teh approved groups that the core/traditonial Metis organizations/intellectuals do not want to admit to. Either a new term is come up with for small-m metis - and I mean a new term constitutinoally, not in Wikipedia - or this article should be more sensitive about relegating people from the "wrong" ethnic backgrounds to a lesser status. Again, the "racial logic" of the two quoted items is contradictory, also POV and I think you ahve to agree between those two quotes is also contradictory.Skookum1 (talk) 13:53, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

No Metis in Eastern Canada??
I find it interesting that the headline section states: "Their (Métis) homeland consists of the Canadian provinces of British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, and Quebec, as well as the Northwest Territories." As a Métis living in Nova Scotia and a member of the Eastern Woodland Métis Nation, I find this hard to belived. So have I been mislead by my father & grandfather all these years? Or does the fact that this statement was posted on Wikipedia inform me that I am not a Métis person. I know of several other Nations in Atlantic Canada. Just a bit of a refresher on your facts: the first marriages between European and Native People of this land happened right here in Nova Scotia in the 1600s! Most of this article appears to have been inflenced by the Métis National Council (MNC), especialy when you read their website and read this article. The MNC is simply an organization in itself and not the sole voice for the Métis people, nor is the organization appointed by the government as the principal interest group for Métis people. MNC is simple a group of Nations... an association. They seem to feel that Eastern Métis do not exist. Wikipedia sounds alot like the Canadian government... telling us who we are, when we already know who we are. Digby 12.177.4.134 (talk) 23:34, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

? Why does it say you are from the United States and you are saying you are in Nova Scotia 50.98.90.172 (talk) 06:11, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

There is no metis communities in Nova Scotia. I myself can be considered metis, however metis and Metis are not the same. Please take in consideration that metis is a noun that has coined by Europeans and was used long before Europeans arrived in Canada. Adanrom (talk) 01:57, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

Removed graffiti.
Made small edit to remove a vulgar comment. Xikipedia (talk) 20:35, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Series Sidebar
Started this "Ethnic Series sidebar template" to bring together some of the main topics related to the aboriginal peoples of Canada so that the articles stand alone and do not overlap each other in content. What is your opinion? SriMesh | talk  03:59, 11 September 2009 (UTC) Template:Indigenous Peoples of Canada

removed text
Have removed unverifiable statement Marie Olivier Sylvestre Manitouabeich married Martin Prevost, This marriage was to be the first marriage, on record, between an Indian girl and a French colonist. The marriage took place on the third of January, 1644, at Québec. Their decendants would not qualify legally as Metis. ... I will reacsherc this claim to fine a ref or if it is true.

NWT Metis Nation
Why is the NWT Metis Nation (http://www.nwtmetisnation.ca/) not recogized as part of the larger Metis group?--207.6.238.214 (talk) 04:40, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Reorganization/rethinking
I realize that some of this has been discussed before but not completely.

The Métis-related articles seem to me a little confused and disorganized. Some observations:
 * Obviously "métis" is a generic term used in a lot of ways both in North America and around the world. IMHO it makes no sense to have articles using this name unless the topic of any particular article is clear. This article, for example, seems to be trying to cover "all people in the geography of Canada that anybody might refer to as Metis". That is no more meaningful than "all people in the geography of Canada that anybody might refer to as tall".
 * There are meaningfully distinct groups in Canada and elsewhere that have gone by the name Métis. This article is talking primarily about the Michif-speaking group but it attempts to lump in other groups as well.

I would propose reorganizing the articles so that they discuss meaningful ethnic groups. Perhaps something like the following:
 * Métis - Make it a more proper disambig.
 * Red-River Métis - The historically Michif-speaking group. This would include most of the content from this article, rewritten a little. If desired sub-articles could be created (cf. Jews, Jews in the United States, Jews in Canada, etc.):
 * Red-River Métis in Canada
 * Red-River Métis in the United States
 * Acadian Métis (or Atlantic Métis)
 * Anglo-Métis, which already exists

IMHO, this type of reorganization would be more meaningful. Note that I am not asserting that "Red-River Métis" is the correct name. This was just a suggestion.

--Mcorazao (talk) 18:05, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

 * sounds like a great idea...The article has come a long way this year!!..But anything to help would be good...I would say if we talk about one group we SHOULD talk about them all a bit!!...Buzzzsherman (talk) 19:39, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

 * I think specific articles on each is a good idea (although I think only one over-arching “Red River Métis” article would do the trick, rather than three); Add another for Ontario & Québec Métis & US Métis who don’t self-identify with the Red River continuüm (maybe merge with Atlantic? if the historical continuity justifies it?). Also, maybe we should make Anglo-Métis a redirect for countryborn? By the time the country-born started referring to themselves as Métis, the two traditions had begun to coalesce into one, correct? Also, I feel like there should be a distinction made between the different Métis language communities, although I have no idea how you would do it:
 * Historically Cree
 * Historically Ojibwe
 * Historically Saulteaux
 * Historically Métis French
 * Historically Bungee English
 * Historically Michif
 * Historically English/Scots
 * Currently Cree
 * Currently Métis French
 * Currently Michif
 * Currently English the overwhelming majority
 * Here I have listed just the different language groups among the Red River Métis alone (so I don’t think it’s right to describe them as simply “the historically Michif-speaking Métis”); I haven’t taken into consideration the East coast Québec French Acadian French and Mi'kmaq populations. I know that’s a ridiculous list, I just thought I’d start by casting the net wide and then we can discuss condensing. Important questions are: How are each of these language groups regarded in terms of one another? Eg: Do the Michif-speaking Métis feel they are closely related to the Métis French-speaking Métis, and if so is that feeling stronger than any connection they might feel for English-speaking Métis? I think the first task here is uncovering or establishing a hierarchy/taxonomy of Métis peoples. What do you guys think? — Muckapedia17:35, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

 * I prefer the term Western Métis to refer to Red River Métis as it is a more overarching term and more commonly used. My suggestions for disambiguation (should this be in Metis (disambiguation)
 * Metis (generic term, also spelled métis): french term referring to someone of mixed heritage
 * Métis and variants there-of: Ethnic term refer to a specific mix
 * Métis: ethnic French-Canadian term used from (date) to (date) to refer to the offspring of male French colonist with a Female Amerindien (is this where the specific tribes get mentioned)
 * Anglo-Métis, etc...
 * Métis Nation
 * Métis History
 * Métis languages (e.g. Mischif)
 * Music, culture, etc...
 * Métis Nation (legal status, concept) people: citizens of the Métis Nation. They have their own history and culture.  Recognized as a separate Nation in Canada with s. 35 (?? check) rights as set out in Powley case. Métis Nation includes Ontario Métis Nation, Acadian Métis Nation, etc...

Specifics for each regional group:
 * Atlantic Métis
 * Acadian Métis
 * Québec Métis
 * Ontario Métis
 * Western Métis

I Support the reorganization :) Murmullo (talk) 03:19, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Métis or Metis
Metis doesn't need an accent in English. It may have come to English via French at some point, but it originated in Romanic or Latin and got the accent from French. The Canadian Oxford Dictionary observes it as an English word with no accent. Examples of its use in English are found dating back to the early 1800s. English doesn't generally use accents on words it has accepted. It seems that in recent years, the accent has been resurfacing in media, almost as an affectation rather than just an error. Using the accent in an English Wikipedia article doesn't help. Rgsswpg (talk) 17:31, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

 * I disagree. Métis in Canada has an accent because it was coined by the French settlers. I also think dropping the accent ignores the history of the word and the people. The original term métis, coined by habitants, referred to the offspring of a male French-voyageurs and female Native American.  They are the ones who ended up founding what is now known as the Métis Nation. The generic term métis can be used without an accent.Murmullo (talk) 20:00, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

CBC, Supreme Court of Canada and Métis narion use an accent on Métis in English, further support for keeping the accent Murmullo (talk) 03:19, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Many Cajuns have Canadian Metis Roots
DNA research is confirming that many Cajun people of Louisiana (whose ancestors originally migrated from Quebec) have Metis DNA markers. Adding a section on the Cajun / Louisiana offshoot branch of the Canadian Metis people is therefore well warranted.

Telemachus.forward (talk) 01:36, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Revision
We are currently (October 31, 2012) working on new additions to this article - If your wish to help see below.Moxy (talk) 20:39, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

 * Pls edit at User:Murmullo/sandbox

The Metis Culture developed primarily in Detroit; Wisconsin & Minnesota especially south of Lake Superior
The Metis Culture developed primarily in Detroit; Wisconsin & Minnesota especially south of Lake Superior, and later in Red River, Manitoba. The first significant Metis settlement was Acadia but most preferred to call them selves Arcadians. By the 1700s, the French presence in the Great Lakes region was well established, and even after Great Britain took control of Canada and the upper country in 1763 at the conclusion of the French and Indian War, young French-Canadian men continued to dominate the fur trade and live among the Indian tribes of the Great Lakes. It was their presence that established the foundation for the Métis culture that emerged there. 68.44.188.39Kevin Lajiness 11:04, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

External link suggestion
Hello,
 * (my apologies if I'm writing this incorrectly, this will only be my second foray into wikipedia)

Would it be possible to add this to the External Links - Western Canada section: Rupertsland Centre for Métis Research http://www.rupertsland.org/research/rcmr/

Would it be possible to add this to the External Links - Other section: metisinthecourts.ualberta.ca Site includes interviews with legal and history experts on Métis issues.

Many thanks, Rorossier (talk) 04:06, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done – 29611670.x (talk) 04:27, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

accent on the e leads to "bad title" page
I know that this is the correct spelling, but I tried to put the URL into a document (North American keyboard) and when I check the link afterwards it tells me "bad title". The accent is not represented, and so my machine cannot find the link. Is there anything one can do? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Metawitch (talk • contribs) 01:01, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

accent on the e leads to "bad title" page
I know that this is the correct spelling, but I tried to put the URL into a document (North American keyboard) and when I check the link afterwards it tells me "bad title". The accent is not represented, and so my machine cannot find the link. Is there anything one can do?Metawitch (talk) 01:04, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

new legal status in Canada
This will need to be added re legal status, there will be more to follow as the new definition takes root.Skookum1 (talk) 16:33, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

reorder sections
the article gives a very brief introduction and then immediately jumps into the modern controversy over legal status and modern identity. this is very confusing for a person who doesn't even know what a Métis is, much less has a stake in the legal interpretation. propose moving the "distribution" and "history" sections to just after the introduction, and move "self identity and legal status" to the bottom of the page. i have no political stake in this; it's just how i think *_people pages should be organized. for example the British_people article does it this way. i realize that putting this section at the bottom might convey an impression that it's not important, but the entire article is already about the Métis people and there is a separate métis article which prominently links here. Fennfoot (talk) 18:59, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

use of "race" in hatnote
that's so completely off base it needs no further comment; other wording for that must be found.Skookum1 (talk) 02:12, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

New ruling from Canada - is first paragraph inaccurate?
Metis just now are constitutionally considered "Indians" per a Supreme Court decision yesterday.

The first paragraph sort of implies this has been the case for a while. Just a request to correct it when the new information is edited in by someone for the page. Thanks.

142.163.93.160 (talk) 08:19, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

'aboriginal' or 'Aboriginal'?
Dear , I hope you are keeping well? Thank you for your recent edits on this article, which intrigued me and prompted me to send you the present query: are the "aboriginal" people of Canada ("aboriginal" = "people existing in a land before the arrival of colonists") also referred to with an upper case 'A', like the native population of Australia? My dictionaries have both spelling, and single out the Australian Aborigines as the only group with the upper case 'A'. If the same is done in Canada also, please would you kindly tell me if this is a new development? There's no rush, but thank you for letting me know, at your convenience. With kind regards; Patrick. ツ Pdebee.(talk)(guestbook) 15:22, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
 * The accepted standard today is to capitalize, see, . It's also recommended to to not just it as a standalone noun, but those edits would take more time. Patar knight - chat/contributions 15:28, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Dear ,
 * Thank you very much for your prompt and informative reply; very interesting link you included; thanks. When you have more time, please amend the second sentence,: "It's also recommended...." as I don't understand the point you're trying to communicate; thank you in advance.
 * With kind regards;
 * Patrick. ツ Pdebee.(talk)(guestbook) 16:13, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
 * It's recommended not to use "Aboriginal" as a stand alone noun as opposed to as an adjective in a noun phrase (e.g. "Aboriginals" vs "Aboriginal peoples", "an Aboriginal" vs. "An Aboriginal person"). -- Patar knight - chat/contributions 18:52, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
 * It is now recommended to use Indigenous -see: http://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/cbc-aboriginal-becomes-cbc-indigenous-1.3765790 Murmullo (talk) 01:29, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Indigenous is the more widely used term in Canada now. Indigenous is also capitalized in Canadian media to refer to Indigenous people, per the latest Canadian Press Style Guide: OttawaAC (talk) 18:01, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130512012710/http://www.aboriginal.alberta.ca/documents/MetisSettlement_FirstNation_Profile.pdf to http://www.aboriginal.alberta.ca/documents/MetisSettlement_FirstNation_Profile.pdf
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External links modified (February 2018)
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130205180313/http://www.aboriginalcanada.gc.ca/acp/site.nsf/eng/ao35055.html to http://www.aboriginalcanada.gc.ca/acp/site.nsf/eng/ao35055.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131106042852/http://www.albertametis.com/MNAHome/MNA-Membership.aspx to http://www.albertametis.com/MNAHome/mna-membership.aspx
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This is highly unlikely: "Geneticists estimate that 50 percent of today's population in Western Canada has some Aboriginal ancestry".
It seems **highly** unlikely to me that the Metis account for half of the population of Western Canada. The link for the reference for this statement is broken, but Googling the terms of the ref and I found the following, which is probably what it was referencing: . This is not an authoritative source, and it makes wildly exaggerated and unsubstantiated claims about the extent of the Metis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arrow of Arjuna (talk • contribs) 02:10, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

"metis" vs "Metis" edit war
Does anyone want to support the IP's attempts to rewrite this section? IP has made 9 attempts so far (I think). This is typical, although the specific changes have varied. 'Lower case "m" refers to anyone with a 50/50 blood quantum and not necessarily someone with aboriginal ancestry. The noun is used around the world to describe people whom can be referred to as half breed.' seems particularly problematic. Meters (talk) 10:38, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

title: Talk:Métis in Canada


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mr. Buck

Mr. Buck
Hoax. Not a valid speedy, and in no way fulfills Speedy Deletion criterion 4. - Ta bu shi da yu 01:16, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete: Hoax. No record of its existence. Geogre 04:20, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Speedily deleted as verifiable hoax by repeated hoaxer. Mikkalai
 * Sigh. Not a speedy delete. Restored. - Ta bu shi da yu 04:55, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete as non-notable. Fire Star 16:55, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete as obvious vandalism. The "dsfkjhg" kinds of articles are bad enough.  This party not only tried to perpetrate a hoax, he couched it in proper formatting and wikis. - Lucky 6.9 20:37, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/


text:
Mount Sinai School District

The Mount Sinai School District is a United States educational division of the Mount Sinai, New York community in the Town of Brookhaven on the north shore of Long Island. Established in 1870, the district oversees three schools that serve approximately 2,200 students located in a six square mile area. The Board of Education for the district consists of seven members, including a president and a vice-president. The 2020-2021 budget was about $61,000,000. The location of the original school building is unknown; however, tradition places it on North Country Road east of Mt Sinai Coram Road. The second one-room school was built in 1870 on a half acre of land on the southeast corner of North Country and Mt Sinai Coram Road and in 1908 a second classroom was added. This building served the community until 1960. At that time the community decided to send their children to be educated in Port Jefferson School District. In 1960, the school was moved and a firehouse was built on the original property.

Mount Sinai Elementary School
Opened in 1966, serving grades kindergarten through 4th grade. The current principal is Rob Catlin. The elementary assistant principal is Meghan Tepfenhardt.

Mount Sinai Middle School
Opened in 1978, serving grades 5th through 8th. The current principal is Mr. Christopher Elsesser and the assistant principal is Mr. Matthew Dyroff.

Robert M. Grable Mount Sinai High School
Formerly opened as Mount Sinai High School in 1991 for 9th through 12th grades. The principal through the 2018–2019 school year was Robert Grable until his passing on July 19, 2019. On July 22, 2019, at the vigil for the late Robert Grable, it was announced the school was to be renamed the Robert M. Grable Memorial High School, pending a Board of Education vote on August 28, 2019. The Board of Education subsequently approved renaming the school to Robert M. Grable Mount Sinai High School. The assistant principals are Frank LaBianca and Matthew Dyroff. On August 23, 2019, Superintendent Gordon Brosdal announced that former Middle School principal, Peter Pramataris, will take the role as interim high school principal. The current high school administration includes Peter Pramataris as high school principal, and Christina Romeo as assistant principal.

Student Activities
Mt. Sinai School District features many clubs, both nationally recognized and independent, as well as sports. Students in all three schools have the opportunity to join these clubs, and students in the Middle and High schools can try out for the sports teams.

Clubs
Some clubs offered at the school include National Honor Society, Future Business Leaders of America, Best Buddies, Model U.N., S.T.E.M. Project, a GSA (Gay-straight alliance or Gender and Sexuality Alliance), and much more.

Notable alumni

 * Joseph Patrick Dwyer, soldier (Class of 1994)
 * Greg Marasciulo, professional wrestler (Class of 2005)
 * Philip Scholz, author; swimmer and 2008 Paralympian (Class of 2007)
 * Julia Smit, swimmer and 2008 Olympian (Class of 2006)

title: Mount Sinai School District


text:
Talk:Consanguinity

Untitled
I'm gonna try to work on this article in more detail in the coming weeks. Feel free to help. Also, I may change the chart I made. --Doctorcherokee 01:16, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I wrote this:

 * Consanguinity is measured by degrees of consanguinity, which can be defined in several different ways. The most common definition is the modern civil law definition, which increases by one with each step up or down along the shortest path between two individuals in a family tree; thus, for example, you are one degree from either parent, or from your children; two sibilings are two degrees apart -- one step up to the common parent, another back down to the sibling. This is also the definition used in Roman law.

 * Degrees of consanguinity defined in this way are directly related to the probability of the two individuals sharing a given gene, where the probability is $$2^{-n}$$ where $$n$$ is the number of degrees of consanguinity. For this reason, breeding with someone with a close degree of consanguinity carries an elevated risk of genetic problems due to inbreeding.

Now I'm not so sure that this is accurate, so I've taken it out. Does anyone know
 * 1) the accurate legal situation, for various jurisdictions and religious traditions?
 * 2) the correct biology and genetic probabilities?

For example, siblings share two direct common ancestors (mother and father): do they get a "double dose" of shared genes, so should n be 1 in this case? What about other more complex cases? -- The Anome 00:27, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

Aha. This should shed a bit more light on the subject... -- The Anome 00:29, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

OK, I now see that my previous treatment was half-baked, and plain wrong for siblings etc. However, considering the relationship of the various non-genetic schemes to the distance measured by the coefficient of consanguinity, and considering the "background noise" levels of the coefficient of consanguinity in the general population should provide an excellent scientific counterpoint to the religious, legal and historical story of consanguinity. This could be an excellent article! -- The Anome 00:46, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

Thoughts
It should be noted here that the chart doesn't follow the "intuitive fractions" people often employ when discussing this: siblings equal 100%, parents and children 50%, grandparents 25%. The up a step down a step makes sense for cousins and aunts and uncles (the latter technically 50% if they are 100% to mom or dad) but it doesn't seem right for siblings. If anything they should be ranked zero--as close a genetic match to us as is possible. Marskell 15:29, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I think that you're right, siblings should not be less related than parents, however, I don't know if they more. -- Kjkolb 09:23, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Cousin Chart
Another view: http://www.totemconsulting.ca/Consanguinity.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alfredsimpson (talk • contribs) 04:21, 28 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I think merging the 2 articles is a bad idea. I vote NO. Dr U 07:20, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Merging the two articles is a bad idea because there can be innumerable consanguinity charts; the Cousin Chart is only applicable to consanguinity in the system of English speakers of European ethnicity. To include this chart within the Consanguinity article would invite the inclusion of the countless other consanguinity systems, which has the potential of making the article too bloated.  Instead, the Cousin Chart article should perhaps be renamed English Language Consanguinity System, which would allow future articles concerned with other consanguinity systems.  I vote NO.  Too Old 18:16, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

"Also, at a genetic level, half-fourth cousins typically do not exhibit greater genetic similarity with one another than with any other individual from the same population." - It seems to me, that paternal 4th cousins (probably sharing the same last name), would probably also share one complete chromosome in common, at least. (About %2 of genetic material?) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.124.116.101 (talk) 18:17, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, that would be true, if (I assume this was the assumption), both of them were male; but, since males cannot produce offspring with other males, and since Y-chromosome genes never enter the female population, "Y-chromisome consanguinity" is not of any importance..
 * However, your post got me thinking about another, slightly related (no pun intended) phenomenon, that may or may not be of any significant consideration (I am no mathematician ;) in the case of full sisters and half sisters who share a father, they all have identical copies of one of their X chromosomes. Therefore, wouldn't that mean that a boy and girl pair of cousins from two sisters would share a greater number of genes than would a boy and girl pair of cousins from a brother and a sister? 2600:1702:4960:1DE0:A183:7336:D574:C480 (talk) 10:22, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
 * EDIT: for simplicity's sake, in the aforesaid hypotheticals, for the two cousins offspring from a brother and sister, let the boy be the brother's son and the girl the sister's daughter. I think there's fewer X chromosomes needing to be accounted for that way :)

Degrees of Consanguinity
I'm pretty sure that the 4th degree of consanguinity is between first, not fourth cousins

Actually it is. Ego -> Parents -> Grandparents -> Aunt/Uncle -> Cousin --Sven Lotz 11:42, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

[I added a pdf. link] "The TABLE of Degrees of CONSANGUINITY and AFFINITY" enacted by Pennsylvania Law in the year 1705, found in "The Legislative Reference Bureau, an agency of the Pennsylvania General Assembly," a publicly available web site: http://www.palrb.us/default.asp

Joe Menkevich - local history researcher in Philadelphia. Bigjoe5216 09:04, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Expert attention needed
I came here looking for info on aunts, uncles, nieces, and nephews. Some or all of those words are redirected to the related article Cousin, but that article is very light on covering them. Looking at Cousin and this article and their talk pages, it seems that both articles are pretty weak. I think somebody needs to come in and clean house. Sibling could use a bit of housecleaning, too. Lou Sander 22:06, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

My name Is Dr Michael Black, Curator for www.consang.net on behalf of Consanguinty expert, Prof. Alan Bittles. I have added a paragraph on he genetic definition of Consanguinity and added external links to the Consang.net database. This has recently been made into a wiki and is being updated, with exciting updates planned for the near future. --Dr Michael Black 08:09, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Presuming that's the section under 'Genetic definition', I have to say that I found it jarringly out-of-place with the tone of the rest of the article, being highly technical and with no definition of its terms. That said, I appreciate the attempt to provide some genetic background to the subject of - literally - mixed blood, where the remainder of the page is legal / cultural in its emphasis.

I do find the article itself rather light on solid information about the subject, and it certainly didn't help me to find the information I wanted: having read (on the Cousin page) about the percentage of consanguinity between first cousins, I simply wanted to know why the percentage given (0.125%) was half what I would naively expect (0.25%). I would really appreciate some (entry-level!) information on how consanguinity is calculated between individuals. This article on GeneWeb was the best I could find on the subject with a quick Google search. CuriousHybrid 16:18, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

The Knot System explains exactly how to measure consanguinity using what Hojrup calls KinCodes, and it is very simple even for complex relationships where there are multiple common ancestors. You count the steps from the proband (ie, yourself, up to the common ancestor then back down to the other person. You don't count yourself of the other person, you count the common ancestor going up and down.  Example, first cousins.  Me to Grandpa:  2.  Grandpa to cousin:  2.  Total:  4.  Call that total value N.  Consanguinity is (1/2)^N or 1/16.  But we also have Grandma in common.  That calculation also results in 1/16.  Add up all the consanguinity, 1/16 + 1/16 = 1/8.

To answer CuriousHybrid's question, why do first cousins share 0.125 (1/8th) and not 1/4? 1/4 is the amount of genes you have in common with your full sibling (self to mother: 1. mother to sibling = 1. N = 2.  (1/2)^2 = 1/4.  repeat for father.  1/4 + 1/4 = 1/2). A non-mathematical way of answering the question is that even though siblings have both parents in common, they each get a different 1/2 of the parents' genetic material (marvels of genetic recombination), 1/2 of which is overlapping from sibling to sibling. 67.175.124.153 (talk) 04:01, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Genetic Disorders
I've added a section on the increased risk of autosomal recessive disorders in consanguinous relationships. --Mike Burden (talk) 11:51, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Table of CONSANGUINITY needed
The table shown in the article is a table of relationships, not a table of consanguinity. A table of consanguinity shows the degree of relationship between two individuals, not just the name of their relationship to one another. For example, a person is related in the second degree to his/her grandchildren. A person is also related in the second degree to his/her siblings. I've added an external link to a real table of consanguinity. As there are two ways to compute degrees of collateral consanguinity-- by civil law and by canon law (church)-- there need to be two tables of consanguinity shown in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.76.129.17 (talk) 15:36, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Legal Application needed
The page would benefit from a discussion of how consanguinity is applied under common law and statute beyond probate. For instance, how it is used for determining prohibitions on nepotism. Also, how consinguinity is applied to a spouse and the spouse's relations. AusJeb 15:46, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Genetics needs a complete rewrite
The genetics section needs a complete rewrite, because it ignores the crucial issue that genes are inherited in blocks (as chromosomes). So for example, the boundary of F >= 0.0156 for consanguinity isn't arbitrary. It is the boundary at which the probability fallss below 0.5, that a male and female parent would share an identical chromosome (modulo any intervening mutations) that they could pass to a child. There are other similar errors in this section. This has ramifications throughout the article, wherever it talks of percentage of shared genes - it should be talking about probability of sharing a gene (the difference is minor up to second degree, but becomes increasingly important for more distant relationships).

By the way, this is one reason that a technical genetics section continues to be needed in this article - there's too much misunderstanding of these issues 'out there', it's not hard to find talk of miniscule levels of shared genetics between fourth cousins.

If no-one objects in the meantime, I'll put some effort into tidying up these issues in January when I have some free time. Urilabob (talk) 03:39, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

 * due to crossovers chromosomes are not inherited unchanged. For example a woman has two Xs.  She gives an X to her daughter.  She doesn't give one of her two Xs; she gives an X made from parts of her two Xs.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.34.239.79 (talk) 06:08, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Religious and traditional law
"In 1215 the Fourth Lateran Council made what they believed was a necessary change to canon law reducing the number of prohibited degrees of consanguinity from seven back to four.[8] The method of calculating prohibited degrees was changed also.[9] Instead of the former practice of counting up to the common ancestor then down to the proposed spouse, the new law computed consanguinity by counting back to the common ancestor.[9] <...> ...the need for dispensations was greatly reduced.[10]"

So we have a contradiction...

Before 1215: 7 degrees prohibited and "Roman" calculation rule. In this case 3rd cousins can marry (8th degree).

After 1215: 4 degrees prohibited and "Germanic/Canonical" calculation rule. In this case 3rd cousins may not marry (4th degree).

The method of calculation was not changed in 1215. "Germanic/Canonical" calculation rule was adopted earlier. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.87.142.15 (talk) 10:22, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Percentages
The percentages do not seem correct. All direct male lines share 50% dna from the y chromosome.

The calculations are different for females.

This page does not reflect that in the chart.

I like to say "Boys are daddy (Y) and a little bit of pot luck (X). Girls are pot luck (X)."

It says 50% of X comes from the father and 50% from the mother given. There are dominant, co-dominant, recessive, etc., i.e. my sister has more British and Irish than my mother and I have less than my mother or something like that.

Looking at our chromosomes, I received an email where the individual believed my younger sister to be my aunt and my mother's sister, not mine.

My sister shows regions that I do not because she may have one more marker consistent with that group making her look like and member, whereas I may lack one marker.

Some markers she did not get at all from our father and I received all of his that were similar, whereas she received none, so I look consistent with 4 other genetic groups that she does not appear to belong to.

Her genetic matches are thousands more than mine.

It's not nearly as cut and dry.

However, it may be possible to say more about a direct male line.

It used to be expected that if a woman was widowed an unwed brother was expected to wed the widow. That brother could be more than a 50% dna match depending on which x chromosomes that received. Not to say that two brothers are the same or that the brother would even make for an agreeable marriage.

My youngest sister and I are very different individuals. Growing up people said they didn't even see a familial resemblance.

However, she does match a good bit of both family trees, but there are individuals that she does not tie to genetically for some roll of the dice reason.

There are only two finite combinations of the same two chromosomes. If a married couple could realize all combinations + 1, they could have identical children that are not twins.

I annoy people when I say the human race is finite. I suspect that mutations are not common enough for this not to be the case. And the idea of mutating dna probably means there will be a coupled shift or counter posing mutation that would cause a whole other series of issues.

However, I suspect that there is a purpose for all markers. Some people may have opinions on which are desirable or undesirable or combinations thereof. However, I doubt anyone is really smart enough to understand all of that. However, surely there are those who taut they do. :-)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.245.53.92 (talk) 09:04, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Your observations are incorrect. The Y chromosome accounts for less than 1% of the total base pairs in the human genome in men. See here. Nearly all the rest is diluted by 50% in every human reproduction. Males generally inherit 100% of Y-DNA from their fathers. Chris55 (talk) 15:34, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
 * This is not a page for general discussion of the subject. Please discuss concrete improvements to the article, based on reliable sources, discussed in light of the policies and guidelines. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 16:42, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Level of lineal consanguinity = meiosis?
This article states:

"...consanguinity table in which each level of lineal consanguinity (generation or meiosis) appears as a row..."

Is the parenthetical remark correct? Does each level of lineal consanguinity equal generation or meiosis, especially the latter, which has to do with chromosomes? If there is such a direct relationship, please explain how and give a source.

I couldn't look into this too much because my real-life limitations were acting up, so all I could do is post these questions here. Thanks in advance for your consideration of these questions! Geekdiva (talk) 02:00, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Bhinder et al journal article: Consanguinity: A blessing or menace at population level?
This journal article might be worth citing:

Average DNA shared table
Various IPs (presumably the same editor) have made multiple attempts to rewrite the Average DNA shared table in the Genetic definitions. I think it makes more sense to leave the table as is, with the relationship first and then give the average DNA shared. I assume that readers will be looking at the table to determine what the average degree of shared DNA is for a particular relationship (say between first cousins: 12.5%), rather than saying, "I wonder what relationship has 5.46875% shared DNA?" and finding that it is a "3.5-tuple-2nd cousin-pibling / 3.5-tuple-2nd cousin-nibling". I also agree with user:Craig Butz and user:Erp that we should use the common terms used in the ref and that everyone knows rather than such terms as "pibling" and "nibling".

If there are useful missing entries that need to be added to the table that's fine. Source them and add them, but let's not add such incomprehensible oddities such as "sesqui-1st great-cousin-pibling / sesqui-1st great-cousin-nibling" Meters (talk) 03:30, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Agree that the chart should use common terminology and does not need to include every possible relationship. The goal is to help the reader understand the topic of the pages, not to introduce them to recently invented and little used words that are not the main topic of this page. Also, it makes sense for the terms to come before the percents.Craig Butz (talk) 06:39, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Multiple IP blocks have not stopped this. Page protection is likely next. Meters (talk) 22:21, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I've removed a lengthy talk page addition on this by yet another IP from Brazil as WP:BLOCKEVASION of .  Meters (talk) 04:13, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

"Consanguinity (in Canon Law)" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Consanguinity (in Canon Law) and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 March 12 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Veverve (talk) 13:06, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

The numbers in the chart are off
Person X's siblings, the parents of X, and the direct offspring of X all share on average 50% DNA with X, and thus they all have the same degree of consanguinity with X. The "Table of Consanguinity" displayed to illustrate the article has erred on this point, and thus many of the numbers in the chart are wrong. Compare with the CC-chart here, which is correct:.

This seems like a fundamental error, and I think that the chart should not be used without this issue being fixed. ––St.nerol (talk) 17:44, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I think the table in the intro is using the legal definition (US at least).  See for instance  where "Brothers/Sisters - Half-Brothers/Half-Sisters - Grandchildren - Grandparents" are second degree.  What it does need is a proper reference. --Erp (talk) 04:00, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Consanguinity


text:
WH Smith Literary Award

The WH Smith Literary Award was an award founded in 1959 by British high street retailer W H Smith to "encourage and bring international esteem to authors of the British Commonwealth". Originally open to all residents of the UK, the Commonwealth and Ireland, it later admitted foreign works in translation and works by US authors. The final three winners were Americans (Philip Roth, Donna Tartt and Richard Powers), and 2005 was the award's final year.

The "W H Smith Illustration Award" ran from 1987 to 1994.

The "W H Smith Mind-Boggling Book Award" for children's literature ran from 1993 to 1996.

W H Smith sponsors the National Book Awards Children's Book of the Year (the "British Children's Book Award" through 2009).

Winners

 * 1959: Patrick White, Voss
 * 1960: Laurie Lee, Cider With Rosie
 * 1961: Nadine Gordimer, Friday's Footprint
 * 1962: J. R. Ackerley, We Think the World of You
 * 1963: Gabriel Fielding, The Birthday King
 * 1964: Ernst H. Gombrich, Meditations on a Hobby-Horse
 * 1965: Leonard Woolf, Beginning Again
 * 1966: R. C. Hutchinson, A Child Possessed
 * 1967: Jean Rhys, Wide Sargasso Sea
 * 1968: V. S. Naipaul, The Mimic Men
 * 1969: Robert Gittings, John Keats
 * 1970: John Fowles, The French Lieutenant's Woman
 * 1971: Nan Fairbrother, New Lives, New Landscapes
 * 1972: Kathleen Raine, The Lost Country
 * 1973: Brian Moore, Catholics
 * 1974: Anthony Powell, Temporary Kings
 * 1975: Jon Stallworthy, Wilfred Owen
 * 1976: Seamus Heaney, North
 * 1977: Ronald Lewin, Slim: The Standardbearer
 * 1978: Patrick Leigh Fermor, A Time of Gifts
 * 1979: Mark Girouard, Life in the English Country House
 * 1980: Thom Gunn, Selected Poems 1950–1975
 * 1981: Isabel Colegate, The Shooting Party
 * 1982: George Clare, Last Waltz in Vienna
 * 1983: A. N. Wilson, Wise Virgin
 * 1984: Philip Larkin, Required Writing
 * 1985: David Hughes, The Pork Butcher
 * 1986: Doris Lessing, The Good Terrorist
 * 1987: Elizabeth Jennings, Collected Poems 1953–1985
 * 1988: Robert Hughes, The Fatal Shore
 * 1989: Christopher Hill, A Turbulent, Seditious and Factious People: John Bunyan and His Church
 * 1990: V. S. Pritchett, A Careless Widow and Other Stories
 * 1991: Derek Walcott, Omeros
 * 1992: Thomas Pakenham, The Scramble for Africa
 * 1993: Michèle Roberts, Daughters of the House
 * 1994: Vikram Seth, A Suitable Boy
 * 1995: Alice Munro, Open Secrets
 * 1996: Simon Schama, Landscape and Memory
 * 1997: Orlando Figes, A People's Tragedy: The Russian Revolution – 1891–1924
 * 1998: Ted Hughes, Tales From Ovid
 * 1999: Beryl Bainbridge, Master Georgie
 * 2000: Melvyn Bragg, The Soldier's Return
 * 2001: Philip Roth, The Human Stain
 * 2002: Ian McEwan, Atonement
 * 2003: Donna Tartt, The Little Friend
 * 2004: Richard Powers, The Time of Our Singing
 * 2005: Philip Roth, The Plot Against America

WH Smith Mind-Boggling Book Award
For a few years, W H Smith also offered a children's book award. The judges were children between nine and twelve, and the intention was to promote books which were "accessible to children in content and price, as well as offering a gripping read."

The winners were:

 * 1993: Philip Ridley, Krindlekrax
 * 1994: Malorie Blackman, Hacker
 * 1995: Maggie Prince, Memoirs of a Dangerous Alien
 * 1996: Sharon Creech, Walk Two Moons

title: WH Smith Literary Award


text:
Rudi Fischer

Rudolf "Rudi" Fischer (19 April 1912 – 30 December 1976) was a racing driver from Switzerland.

Fischer participated in eight World Championship Grands Prix, debuting on 27 May 1951. He achieved two podium finishes, and scored a total of 10 championship points. He also participated in numerous non-Championship Formula One and Formula Two races.

Career
Fischer finished third in a race which marked the reopening of the AVUS, a German motor racing circuit. It had been closed for a 14-year period and was damaged during World War II. A crowd of 350,000 watched Paul Greifzu of Suhl, Thuringia, win in a car he built himself. Fischer drove a Ferrari to third place over a distance of 207.5 kilometres. His time was 1 hour, 10 minutes, 27.5 seconds. In the 1952 Swiss Grand Prix, in Bern, Fischer finished second to Piero Taruffi; both drivers were in Ferraris.

Écurie Espadon/Scuderia Espadon
Fischer was the leader of the "Écurie Espadon", the entrant name for most of his racing career.

Écurie Espadon was composed of a group of Swiss amateur gentleman racers. The word "Écurie" was used at the beginning as most of the team's cars were French, generally Gordinis. Later the team's equipment changed to Ferraris and other Italian vehicles, thus the name of the team changed to use the equivalent Italian word "Scuderia".

The team was involved in several races all over Europe, as the presentation document described.

The team was composed of:
 * Rudolf Fischer: a successful restaurant owner.
 * Rudolf Schoeller
 * Peter Hirt: a wealthy businessman from Küssnacht, near Zürich, involved in precision tool manufacturing.
 * Peter (Pierre) Staechelin from Basel.
 * Max de Terra
 * Paul Glauser

Post WWII Grandes Épreuves results
(key)

Complete Formula One World Championship results
(key) Entered and practiced in his Ferrari 500, but engine failure meant that he reverted to the previous season's 212 model for the race. Drive shared with Peter Hirt.

title: Rudi Fischer


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Augustine's Child

Augustine's Child
Hoax. Not a valid speedy, and in no way fulfills Speedy Deletion criterion 4. - Ta bu shi da yu 01:17, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete: A warning to the contributor, and a ban if he doesn't relent. Hoax. Geogre 04:19, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Speedily deleted as verifiable hoax by repeated hoaxer. Mikkalai 04:48, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Not a speedy delete. Restored. Go through VfD. - Ta bu shi da yu 04:55, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Pure vandalism, speedy delete. -- Cyrius|✎ 05:02, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. Speedy delete and ban user.  History is nothing but vandalism and this nonsense.  This guy's caused way too much trouble already. - Lucky 6.9 20:34, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete: Almost certainly a vanity page. Anon is unwilling/unable to provide supporting valid references showing this is notable. Anon has been repeatedly trying to insert an entry for Paul Paquette on the 1989 page too. *** Ponder 01:40, 2004 Dec 5 (UTC)


text:
Tony Bettenhausen

Melvin Eugene "Tony" Bettenhausen (September 12, 1916 – May 12, 1961) was an American racing driver known primarily for his open-wheel career. He twice won the National Championship, doing so in 1951 and 1958. He also competed in stock cars, winning under AAA and USAC sanction.

Bettenhausen was nicknamed the "Tinley Park Express" in honor of his hometown. He was nicknamed "Tunney" after heavyweight boxing champion Gene Tunney. "Tunney" later became "Tony."

Midget car career
Bettenhausen was part of the midget car "Chicago Gang" with Emil Andres, Cowboy O'Rourke, Paul Russo, Jimmy Snyder, and Wally Zale. These racers toured tracks in the Midwest and East Coast of the United States.

Bettenhausen won the track championship at the Milwaukee Mile in 1942, 1946, and 1947. He was the Chicago Raceway Park champion in 1941, 1942, and 1947.

In October 1950, he was involved in a race in Sacramento, California, when his car locked wheels with another racer's car, causing a crash through the guard rail, resulting in fatal injuries to spectator Peter Bernard Stuberak, and injuries to two other spectators.

Bettenhausen won the 1959 Turkey Night Grand Prix, and the Hut Hundred in 1955 and 1956.

Championship car career
Bettenhausen drove in the AAA and USAC Championship Car series, racing in the 1941 and 1946-1961 seasons with 121 starts, including 14 in the Indianapolis 500. He finished in the top ten 74 times, with 21 victories.

He won the National Championship in 1951 after recording eight victories and two second-place finishes in fourteen events. He announced his retirement from all racing but the Indianapolis 500 after the season. He decided to return full-time for the 1954 season. He was involved in a midget car wreck in Chicago, suffering head injuries after striking a concrete wall. He was in critical condition for several days.

He prearranged to co-drive with Chicago Gang friend Paul Russo in the 1955 Indianapolis 500. They finished second.

In 1958, Bettenhausen became the first driver to claim the National Championship without a win. He was assured the title with a second-place finish at Phoenix. He finished second in the national championship to Rodger Ward in 1959.

World Drivers' Championship career
The AAA/USAC-sanctioned Indianapolis 500 was included in the FIA World Drivers' Championship from 1950 through 1960. Drivers competing at Indianapolis during those years were credited with World Drivers' Championship participation, and were eligible to score WDC points alongside those which they may have scored towards the AAA/USAC National Championship.

Bettenhausen participated in all 11 World Drivers' Championship races held at Indianapolis. He finished in the top three once, and set one fastest leader lap. He scored 11 World Drivers' Championship points.

Death
Bettenhausen was killed in a May 12, 1961 crash at Indianapolis while testing a Stearly Motor Freight Special vehicle for Paul Russo. The car smashed into the outside wall of the track and then rolled 325 ft along the barrier. The car came to rest in a grassy plot between the wall and Grandstand A, with the tail of the car on fire. Results showed the accident was caused by an anchor bolt which fell off the front radius rod support, allowing the front axle to twist and misalign the front wheels when the brakes were applied, which drove the car into the wall. Bettenhausen died instantly.

Personal life and family
Bettenhausen was the father of Gary Bettenhausen, Tony Bettenhausen Jr. and Merle Bettenhausen. Gary Bettenhausen and Tony Bettenhausen Jr. both raced in the Indianapolis 500 numerous times. Merle Bettenhausen is his sole surviving son as of 2021.

Awards and honors
Bettenhausen has been inducted into the following halls of fame:
 * Auto Racing Hall of Fame (1968)
 * National Midget Auto Racing Hall of Fame (1985)
 * International Motorsports Hall of Fame (1991)
 * Motorsports Hall of Fame of America (1997)
 * National Sprint Car Hall of Fame (2008)
 * United States Auto Club (USAC) Hall of Fame (2013)

AAA/USAC Championship Car results

 * 1946 table only includes results of the six races run to "championship car" specifications. Points total includes the 71 races run to "big car" specifications.

FIA World Drivers' Championship results
(key) (Races in italics indicate fastest lap)

 *  † Indicates shared drive with Joie Chitwood after retiring his own car.
 *  * Indicates shared drive with Chuck Stevenson and Gene Hartley.
 *  ‡ Indicates shared drive with Duane Carter, Marshall Teague and Jimmy Jackson after retiring his own car.
 *  џ Indicates shared drive with Paul Russo.

title: Tony Bettenhausen


text:
Keysville

Keysville may refer to a location in the United States:

 * Keysville, California, former name of Keyesville, California
 * Keysville, Florida
 * Keysville, Georgia
 * Keysville, Missouri
 * Keysville, Maryland
 * Keysville, Virginia

title: Keysville


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Paul Paquette

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was (just putting tags on - wasn't closed properly) enochlau (talk) 23:46, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Paul Paquette
Hoax. Not a valid speedy, and in no way fulfills Speedy Deletion criterion 4. - Ta bu shi da yu 01:19, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete: Hoax. Technically not a speedy, but an early deletion after a day or two wouldn't be amiss. Geogre 04:18, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete as verifiable hoax by repeated hoaxer. Mikkalai 04:51, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Not a candidate for speeding deletion. Restoring. Will be removed after a few days on VfD, but process must be followed. - Ta bu shi da yu 04:58, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Histories of the pages in question clearly show malicious intent of contributor, and it is easily classified as vandalism. Unfortunately it is not listed as reason for vfd. Mikkalai 05:03, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Well, this will be the last time as we have now placed it on VfD and this subpage is here. - Ta bu shi da yu 05:19, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * If a hoax isn't a valid speedy, then the speedy deletion criteria should be revised. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 16:09, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why a hoax is not patent nonsense. anthony 警告 19:10, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Comment: Because as individuals, we have a very poor track record at identifying hoaxes.  Speedy deletes (including those using the "patent nonsense" clause) should be non-controversial.  Too many articles have been nominated as "an obvious hoax" and turned out to be real (though obscure) topics.  Articles accused of being hoaxes should get more than one set of eyes.  (By the way, that is not a defense of this article.  It's merely an attempt to answer anthony's question.)  Rossami (talk)
 * So, basically, hoaxes are patent nonsense, just not suspected hoaxes. anthony 警告 16:31, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Agreed. The party responsible for this idiocy not only wasted the time of we who use this site for legitimate purposes, it nearly caused a rift between another user and myself.  Delete. - Lucky 6.9 20:32, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete --Tagishsimon (talk)
 * Delete: Almost certainly a vanity page. Anon is unwilling/unable to provide supporting valid references showing the person is notable. Anon has been repeatedly trying to insert an entry for this person on the 1989 page too. *** Ponder 01:34, 2004 Dec 5 (UTC)

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.


text:
User talk:Vitbich

Great to see you in Wikipedia! I assume you are the same Vitbich who wrote that great intro into Belarusian language? ;) --rydel 01:20, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! Mango juice talk 20:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The five pillars of Wikipedia
 * How to edit a page
 * Help pages
 * Tutorial
 * How to write a great article
 * Manual of Style

Greetings,, and welcome to Wikipedia's deletion process! Thank you for your contributions. As a newcomer, it may be helpful for you to read the Wikipedia deletion policy, and the pages describing the article deletion process, proposed deletion, and speedy deletion. Remember that deletion debates are not votes, and reasons matter, especially reasons relating to the central content policies of WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, and WP:NOT, and to the consensual community guidelines WP:BIO, WP:CORP, WP:MUSIC, and WP:FICT. Also remember that deletion isn't always the answer to a bad article. Feel free to drop me a line at my talk page if you have any questions. Again, welcome!Mango juice talk 20:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

In regards to the article Karn Brij, which you proposed for deletion, I have marked the article for speedy deletion, as I feel that the article meets one or more of the criteria for speedy deletion. In cases where it applies, speedy deletion is preferable to proposed deletion. I have left the prod tag in place, so that if speedy deletion is rejected, your proposed deletion will remain in place. Thanks! Mango juice talk 20:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

title: User talk:Vitbich


text:
Korean Social Democratic Party

The Korean Social Democratic Party (KSDP) is a political party in North Korea that is allied with the ruling Workers' Party of Korea (WPK). It was formed on 3 November 1945 as the Korean Democratic Party by a mixed group of entrepreneurs, merchants, handicraftsmen, petite bourgeoisie, peasants, and Christians. The party's founders were motivated by anti-imperialist and anti-feudal aspirations, and aimed to eliminate the legacy of Japanese rule and build a new democratic society. The party came under greater influence of the ruling government over time, and today is under the effective control of the WPK.

History
The party was established in Pyongyang by Cho Man-sik on 3 November 1945 as the Korean Democratic Party (조선민주당). It quickly gained support from Christian businessmen and intellectuals, as well as well-off workers, and had around half a million members after only a few weeks, while reports by the Soviet Union said that the party had 141 thousand member by May 1946. Cho was forced to appoint Choe Yong-gon, a secret communist sympathizer, as his deputy in the party, while the communists increasingly targeted the party for infiltration.

Cho opposed the results of the Moscow Conference in December 1945, in which the foreign ministers of the Soviet Union, the United Kingdom and the United States agreed to establish a joint trusteeship over the formerly Japanese-occupied Korea, which triggered widespread opposition and protests. The KDP Central Committee's Plenum on 2 January 1946 formally voted against the trusteeship plan, and on 5 January, Cho resigned from his position as chairman of the Provisional People's Committee for the Five Provinces, leading many KDP members to follow his example.

Shortly after his resignation, he was arrested by Soviet authorities. Cho's arrest led to many of the party's leaders moving to Seoul in South Korea, where they set up a new headquarters; the party nominated five candidates for the May 1948 Constitutional Assembly elections in South Korea, winning one seat, taken by Yi Yun-yong. In North Korea, the party held its first Congress on 24 February 1946, when Choe Yong-gon was formally elected as leader of the party while Cho Man-sik was declared as "a traitor to the nation and a hireling of American and Japanese imperialism". A purge of Cho's alleged or real sympathizers in the party took afterwards.

The KDP subsequently joined the newly-established North Korean Fatherland United Democratic Front on 22 July, effectively becoming subordinate to the newly-emerging Communist Party of Korea (which later became the Workers' Party of Korea). The KDP held its Second Congress on 13–15 April 1947, where it continued to attack Cho, praised the "liberating mission of the heroic Soviet Army" and adopted a structure closely resembling that of the Workers' Party of North Korea.

Despite increasingly coming under the control of the communists, the KDP initially still continued to attract members, with a Soviet document mentioning the party reaching 291,459 members by December 1946, while a resolution of the Second Congress from May 1947 stating that it had 273,665 members. The party was used by the WPK leadership to keep track on and diffuse anti-communists in North Korea.

KDP candidates were given 35 seats in the August 1948 elections, the newly-elected Supreme People's Assembly (SPA) later proclaimed the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK) in September 1948. The party further declined during the Korean War, during when many of its members sided with the government of South Korea and left the North when South Korean and United Nations forces forces retreated in 1950–1951. By the end of the war, its membership dropped to below 10,000. In February 1956, Choe Yong-gon was appointed as a vice chairman of the WPK, leaving Hong Ki-hwang, deputy chairman of the KDP since late 1945, to replace him as chairman of the KDP.

It was given eleven seats in the 1957 parliamentary elections. Hong and Chondoist Chongu Party leader Kim Tal-hyon were made a ministers without portfolios in September 1957, the last time non-Communist parties were given Cabinet positions. Hong and Kim were purged in 1958 as part of a purge of non-WPK parties, with Hong being accused of espionage and "having contacts with American imperialism". In 1959 and 1960 all of the party's offices were shut down by the government. It was subsequently reduced to four seats in 1962 and one in 1967 and 1972. In 1980 it adopted its current name, the Korean Social Democratic Party (KSDP).

From 1982 until the early 2000s, the party distributed its party journal abroad in Korean and English translation. Since the mid-2000s, its party journal is only available online.

The 1990 elections saw the party awarded 51 seats. It had 52 seats following the 1998 elections and 50 after the 2009 elections. It retained the same number of seats in the 2014 elections.

The party was headed by Pak Yong-il until his death in 2022. The previous chairman was Kim Yong-dae. , the party had more than 30,000 members.

Criticism of government policy
Contrary to its usual portrayal in official propaganda, for a brief time in the mid-to-late 1980s, the party's journal featured texts raising criticism of government policies. These included calls to give more support to people with disabilities or improve the petition system, as well as raising the potential benefits of allowing more than one candidate per election district and allowing voters to decide which would be elected. It is believed these statements may have been linked to a brief liberalization of North Korea's justice system that occurred around the same time.

Ideology
The Korean Democratic Party was initially founded by Cho Man-sik as a nationalist party that could potentially play a significant role in a coalition with the communists. After Cho's arrest, the party transitioned into a satellite party of the communists. During its Second Congress in 1947, the KDP formally incorporated the theory of "people’s democratic revolution" into its program; while not explicitly mentioning socialism, the KDP declared it was unconditionally supportive of the political and social reforms done in North Korea. It also supported friendly ties with the Soviet Union and adopted democratic centralism to its structure.

Since its neutralization and effective demise by the WPK, the party has been used in North Korean propaganda targeting foreign sympathizers. In 1981, the party was renamed to the Korean Social Democratic Party. Because of the ostensible social democratic ideology, which is intelligible to foreigners, the Social Democratic Party is used in such propaganda much more than the other legal minor party, Chondoist Chongu Party. In the 1990s, the KSDP published periodical magazines in Korean and English. These magazines sought to simultaneously convince foreigners that North Korea has a multi-party system with independent parties, but also that minor parties in North Korea support the Workers' Party of Korea without reservation.

Organization
The KSDP was a member of the Democratic Front for the Reunification of Korea from 1949 until the front's dissolution in 2024. It participated in the front alongside the other legal political parties and organisations of North Korea.

International relations
The Korean Social Democratic Party had formed a sisterhood alliance of the now-defunct South Korea's Democratic Labor Party and Unified Progressive Party. The party also is currently interacting with South Korea's Progressive Party. The party issued an "anti-Japan joint statement" (반일공동성명) with the South Korea's Progressive Party in 2019.

The party also maintained communications with the now-defunct Japan Socialist Party.

title: Korean Social Democratic Party