text:
Talk:Camino de Santiago/Archive 1

Hello
who knows anything about the Saint-James-Way in England or Great-Britain? 139.18.15.218 14:25, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Saint James?! Is that the correct translation? Santiago comes from Saint Iago (Saint Yago); "Yago", the same as "Xacobeo" (from the name of the path in gallego), is definitely more related to "Jacob" than to "James"!! Please explain... Marcelino 83.146.49.20 14:15, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes,it is Saint James, since the disciple 'Jacobus' (i.e. the one whose grave is supposedly in Santiago) has always been translated as James in the English bible translation. Don't ask me why, I don't know either, took me a while to figure it out myself, but this is just the case, and has been so since about forever --Arnoutf 21:53, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

It might be the correct translation, but it is never translated. This should remain in the original language. Damiancorrigan 15:48, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry but I don't understand what you mean here by stating it is never translated. Do you mean it should be St James way or Camino di Santiago? In English Way of St James is the usual phrase; also outside wikipedia. (I guess you don't mean we should use the ancient hebrew name for St James.) Arnoutf 18:49, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

To clarify, if necessary: the saint believed to be buried at Compostela is in fact St. James the Greater. His name in Latin is Iacobus (there was no letter J in Latin, so the letter I is used instead). His "official" name in Spanish is Santiago, which is a derivant of Sant-Yago and is equivalent to the Spanish names Diego and Jaime. Jacob is the Anglicised Hebrew form of the same name. The name of this pilgrimage is "el Camino de Santiago" in Spanish and "o Camiño de Santiago" in Galego. I personally would prefer the former, since it is probably the most common internationally. In particular, this would be helpful since there are literally dozens of saints with the name James, although "Santiago" is almost always reserved for this one particular saint. That and the fact that it's not really all that hard to pronounce, is it? Massimo377 20:09, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Pre-Christian history
I don't question in principle the idea that some of the Camino/Way might have pre-Christian origins. However, I find the article's discussion of the Way's pre-Christian history terribly vague and poorly documented. There is much historically untenable kookiness about alleged "paganism" among New Age devotees of this and other religious sites, and I would like to ensure that this is not what we're looking at here.

I have walked 1000 miles of the route. The Cathedral authorities at Compostela are quite willing to admit that the pious legend of James's burial at Compostela is exactly that: a pious legend. They also provide a great deal of interesting material on the archaeology of the site. I would like to see a similarly scientific approach in this article.
 * I agree...the pre-christian section is pure hokum. Unless someone is prepared to reference this section it should be deleted. While there is plentiful evidence of Celtic-era pilgrimage to specific local shrines and healing springs, there is no evidence for long distance pilgrimage to "the end of the world" Benvenuto 23:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Netherlands
Occasionally, there are reports that some Dutch prisoner (and guard) have made the way as an alternative to prison, following an ancient custom. --Error 04:16, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Never heard of that, and I'm Dutch and hiked the way; perhaps the dutch society of saint james knows (http://www.santiago.nl)--Arnoutf 21:50, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It is from Belgium, not Netherland.--Rocastelo 19:17, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * If you have more knowledge on this (and preferably have a reference) feel free to add it. It is a nice story Arnoutf 21:16, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I met a Dutch social worker and a kid from a boys home doing the walk last year, I don't think its an ancient custom, more like a modern character building exercise Benvenuto 00:03, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Vía de la Plata
Did the Vía de la Plata go to Asturica Augusta from Italica or from Emerita Augusta? --Error 00:53, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

suggest to remove/or add section on modern ways
Currently the article contains a section on 'the way of st James in England'. I would suggest either to remove this section or to allow more 'modern' effort to recreate pilgrimspaths. Notably in the Netherlands the 'pilgrimspath' runs from Amsterdam to Maastricht (from where you can hike on to Le Puy). And the famous French FFRP has printed several guides with modern routes, (as far as I know) from Namur (Belgium) through Vezelay and Le Puy to the Navarra section of the path. So in short: I would suggest either expanding this section to encompass all modern routes. Or delete as the Enlish only entry seems biased and incomplete (action for now would be to add a level higher header 'Modern ways of St James' under which I would be perectly happy to only find the Enlish subheader for now. --Arnoutf 22:00, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

 * As there was no objections for 2 weeks I have starting to shift the structure Arnoutf 21:38, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Mind the pilgrim hat
"Mind the pilgrim hat" in the graphic caption appears to be an attempt at humor, and may not be good tone. I deleted it and someone brought it back. Brainhell 22:41, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

 * It is a way to express that Saint James is represented at the same time as a holy warrior and as a pilgrim. Maybe a picture as just a pilgrim would be better suited to this article. If you can express it better or have a a pilgrim picture, change it. --Error 02:12, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

 * See my suggestion as I put it up after replacement by cathedral view Arnoutf 09:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

 * The language is better, but I'd prefer a picture of St James as a pilgrim. --Error 00:01, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

 * It is a nice illustration how different roles of this Saint mingle, but I agree that if we want to make that specific point it may be better to place that in a new legends section Arnoutf 17:44, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Shifted it to history section; fits better there anyway Arnoutf 19:13, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup
I think the first effort in cleaning up this article should be to change the second level headers under chapter 3 and the 3rd level header in Ch4, into normally bolded sections. That would clean up the table of contents. Furhtermore I agree that some text editing may improve the article Arnoutf 09:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

 * No I don't think this is a good idea at all. They really should stay as headings beacuase that is their function; this is a principle of good mark-up. -- reinthal 08:10, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Then at least there should be much more text around each them becuase the balance header+text, which is sometimes only one sentence in relation to table of contents is lost in the current set-up  Arnoutf 22:32, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

 * For now I bolded them, can always change back later as more text is added. By slight restructuring of introduction contents table shifted up Arnoutf 19:12, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Have moved all route descriptions to their own page. As this will obviously expand greatly in the future it is about time to do so. reinthal 02:22, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Good idea, solves a lot! Arnoutf 18:51, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Iberia or spain and portugal
Although I agree not everyone may not what Iberia is, I prefer that term over the summation Spain and Portugal (I agree we should link to Iberian Peninsula, to explain) After all part of the reason for an encyclopeida is to allow people to learn new things and phrasing everything in (baciscally incorrect) simple phrases is not a good thing. Therefore I would argue to change the Spain and Portugal heading back to Iberian Arnoutf 22:37, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Fisterra or Finisterre?
Using Finisterre, the unofficial name might confuse or hide information to users who want to keep looking for more pages (City Councils close to the Cape on the Way always use "Fisterra"). I suggest using the official one.

This article needs a lot of work...
Hello: I have read this article for first time and I am surprised of the imprecissions and errors it contains. The way of Saint James is a very popular subject, it is walked by thousands of pepople each year, and, thereby, it has generated a host of cheap literaturwe books and webpages. Everybody "knows" the "real meaning" of it. But in an enciclopedy we cannot just write the first thing that comes to our mind, and I think it is important to be well-documented, because, although there is a (wide) space for the legend in the Camino, the historical facts are amazing and deserve to be transmited and differenced from fast-food speculations. In the article a strange unreferenced section about an hypotetical pre-Christian (Celt?????) use of the way, and no reference for the much more widely known although discussed theory of the bishop Prisciliano is done. The section about the first pilgrimages is extremely short and without quoting the pilgrimage of Alfonso II, among other important historical facts. No emphasys is made about the cultural importance of the way, the spread of the Romanesque, the construction of Gothic cathedrals...Now I cannot start the revision, but in three weeks I will start working in it. I would apreciate opinions about these points.--Garcilaso 09:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Sounds like good suggestions. I am no expert on the historic topics of the way, but reading the section s involved I can easily see that the text is very immature; and potentially lacking or misrepresenting facts. Perhaps the legends of Charlemagne should be mentioned (who seemed to be guided to Spain by St James to follow the Milky Way to his grave). Perhaps also something more about the (histroical) Vatican / Templar support of the Way (possibly in relation to reconquistada goals of the Pope) might give some interesting insights. After all compared to Rome and Jerusalem ; Santiago is a fairly obscure pilgrimage goal to be allowed to fogive all prior sins; and being the third most holy destination of Christianity in the Middle Ages. But as I say, I am not an expert on the Way's history; my suggestions are hearsay only. But if you (Garcilaso) or anyone would take the effort to implement well documented histroy of the way, I think that would really be a huge improvement. So please do! Arnoutf 12:56, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Garcilaso all I can say is... go for it! You don't need to ask! But please don't edit out information that is unverified, only edit out info that is unverifiable or incorrect. So add away! The rest of us can correct English errors if that's what you're concerned about. -- reinthal 03:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I also am fascinated to find out about this pilgrimmage. I am familiar with the pilgrimmage to Rome, and pilgrimmages to Islamic sites, as well as assorted holy sites in the Americas. I would be interested in learning more about it, even about the pre-Christian pilgrimmages. Filll, October 5, 2006.

Carandell
This prologue by Luis Carandell mentions that the Priscillian theory is from Miguel de Unamuno and attributes to Martin Luther a discouragement of the pilgrimage because "it's not known whether what lies there is a dead dog or a dead horse". With proper attribution it would be interesting. --Error 00:02, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

What does this sentence mean?
"The symbol of St. James pilgrims is the scallop shell, usually sourced at Finisterre, from which they used to drink water."--Filll 21:54, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Happier now? --Error 00:03, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Well I am still not sure. I am going to type the original sentence, which still makes no sense, to be honest, at least in English, and then a guess at some words that make sense in English but might be incorrect:
 * The symbol of St. James pilgrims is the scallop shell from which they used to drink water. The shell was usually sourced at Finisterre
 * A guess might be: The symbol of St. James pilgrims is the scallop shell. Pilgrims used the scallop shells they carried to drink water from a spring on Cape Finisterre.

I cannot really guess very well unless I know what you mean, to be honest. As it stands now, it just is not quite English. And unfortunately, there are a lot of other examples in the article like this. --Filll 03:26, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

 * I had the same problem as you; I could not understand the sentence. I am think spliiting it into to (addition of full stop) is a good idea. The second sentence about Finisterre may need some clairfiaction, your (Filll) sentence is easily understood, but I am not sure this is what was originally meant, and if so, it probably needs a reference as this may be one of the many stroies on the way. Arnoutf 07:34, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

 * The symbol is the scallop shell. Pilgrims drink water with a scallop [I am not sure of this, they are often depicted with a pumpkin as a water container]. The Galician coast is rich in seafood. There are scallops in the Galician coast, including Finisterre. The pilgrims got scallop shells from Finisterre [I am not sure of this. Did they not use scallops in the way to Santiago? Only in the way back?].
 * You can rephrase it now.
 * --Error 01:20, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok I tried to make it clearer--Filll 02:44, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

 * Googling around, I don't find mention of any practical use of the shell. It was just a token showing that the pilgrim had reached Santiago. I have deleted your phrase since there are already mentions of the shell as a symbol. --Error 03:20, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Not sure I understand the move
of the material about the scallop. Some of it I understand, but some of it I am less sure about. I have to think about this some more--Filll 02:40, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Site with information
http://www.caminoguides.com/history.html --Filll 17:14, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Cluny
is Cluny important enough to include with its own note? There are litterally dozens and dozens of routes. This particular way deserves to be singled out?--Filll 13:00, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I don't think it is. But I am pretty sure this hitoric variant would be a valuable addition to the Way of St. James (route descriptions) article. Arnoutf 20:42, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Is it? If you include Cluny, what about the thousands of other towns on hundreds and hundreds of routes? I just am wondering how one decides which are the important towns to mention, and important routes, and which can be left to the references and links to other sites.--Filll 21:51, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Oh I realizethere was more to my comment than I put in writing (lot assumptions that need to be chekced...). As the importance of Cluny is that it connects Le Puy and Vezelay I more or less assumed it was on the current GR65 (which also links Le Puy and Vezelay). So in that aspect this specific variant may actually be an interesting one. But I agree that there are too many variant to even think of listing them all. Anyway even if that GR65 link holds it still should not be here but on the other page Arnoutf 21:56, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Way of St. James and "Frere Jacques"
I have had several people arguing that the song Frere Jacques refers to all pilgrims on the way of St. James. Is this true do you think? Are there published claims that this is true?--Filll

 * I never heard this rumour. The theory is treated but only in little detail compared to some other theories of origin (without source, the ref is a footnote) in the wiki article of the song Frère Jacques. My personal opinion: Probably not, in principle do not add to the mainstream article; although a remark under trivia or speculation (with a link to the Wiki article) could go... Arnoutf 21:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I know about the article here. I wrote that. We have no sources. And I am being bullied by people who insist this is true but can provide no references. I was flexible enough to let it stand (trying to avoid arguments) at the start. This might not have been a good idea. You can see all this on the talk page. I thought that I could find some references, or they would give me some. They have not come up with any after weeks and weeks. I have searched on the web to no avail. I have asked many reference librarians. I have contacted the Vatican library and the University of Santiago de Compostella reference librarians and the Library of Congress. I am trying to get at least one references for this crazy theory since these two Polish people have been so insistent that this is a very common theory in Europe that is commonly believed by many people. And I am asking in places where people might have heard of this theory. Like this talk page.--Filll 08:38, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

 * I didn't look into that article enough to see you were one of the main editors. Well I never heard of the theory; and the songtext does not seem to reflect to the way of St JAcques at all (Personally i had the unfounded belief the song referred to the archfather Jacob (=Jacques in French); but I won't bother you with that theory. I would follow my course scientific writing in agreeing that a common belief by many people means: I am too lazy to look for a good reference. Just kick it out, if they want it back make it their responsibility to come up with a published (ie non-internet) reference for their claim. Good luck Arnoutf 12:53, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I have written the theory out more clearly to hopefully get more responses. I am going to let it stay for another couple of months. I do not think with the Fact tag and it being clearly described that many people will be seriously mislead. I agree that they are too lazy to find a reference, or perhaps unable. One of them in particular has been quite surly and belligerent that I asked him for a reference. His last response was to say "look on the way of st. james page at Shirely Maclaine's book and all the other books on pilgrimmages referenced in that article. You will find your reference in one of those books" without giving a specific book, page number author, extracted passage etc. He has claimed that the article was "unencyclopedic" because we had references there and it was not scholarly to put references on your work or ask for references. He even marked it unencyclopedic until we talked him out of it. He claims to be a philosophy professor in Poland but I have my doubts. I am just about ready to ask for an outside person to come in and make a judgement, but I think it will resolve itself without that.--Filll 14:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Well good luck. Wikipolicy is to use references (so that can easily be countered). Not scholarly... They are kidding. When reviewing papers submitted to scientific journals, I often demand from authors to put in more references (ie asking for refs). When guiding students I tell them there are 3 acceptable ways to come to a conclusion - (1) An undeniable logical reasoning; (2) A clear reference; (3) Own empirical data (not allowed for wiki as original research). Once again; good luck with it. Arnoutf 18:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I feel I am bending over backwards to be flexible and they are just contemptuous of my insistence on references. I as well am used to scholarly citation of references, so this entire attitude just is mystifying and disappointing.--Filll 19:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Botafumeiro
After some investigation on the web, I have found accounts that the Botafumeiro in the Santiago de Compostella Cathedral is made of "silver brass", or silver-plated brass. I have also seen some pictures where the Botafumeiro is clearly silver colored, and others were it is clearly golden colored (from reflections?). For example, a picture purported to be of the Botafumeiro in the library is found at: Also, I have found some accounts that the Botafumeiro weighs 58 Kg, and others that it weighs 80 Kg. Given that a physics study of the Botafumeiro quotes 80Kg, I think that this might be more accurate. I have also seen varying quotes of the height of the Botafumeiro, from 1.6 m to 2 meters or so. Another question: When is the Botafumeiro employed? Some accounts claim it is used only on special occasions, but some foreign language sites imply that it swings daily at 12 noon. What is the truth? Does anyone know the connection of the Road Rally of the same name and the restaurant of the same name to the censer? --Filll 18:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * http://www.galiciaguide.com/pics/botafumeiro.jpg

 * As far as I know (at least during the tourist season) the botafumeiro is used daily in the noon mass (but not in the others such as the pilgrims mass specially for the arriving pilgrims earlier in the morning - if you want to attend a mass this is the nicer as it is less busy and much more intimate). As far as I know it burns about 10kg of incense when swung, but I heard it weighes empty about 40kg (but that is only hearsay). It is brought in on poles by four priests so anything below 100 kg is possible (IMHO). Arnoutf 20:10, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Trash pile
When I look at the outside links, it just looks like a pile of crap to me. I have wondered about making another article which can just be a collection of assorted garbage links. How many photo albums in foreign languages do we need for example? I mean, really.--Filll 19:18, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Actually I would say we do not need a single photo album in whatever language. Arnoutf 20:11, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

 * And of course this is also the case for painting made by an editor, they should not be listed. Arnoutf 10:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

 * Wow that is pretty funny. I appreciate that many people want to somehow use Wikipedia to promote themselves or their small business etc, but this is not the way to do it. I am sure it is possible, but it has to be done in a far more clever and subtle way. Like if he puts a painting in the public domain and lets people use it on Wikipedia, and puts a caption under it with his name and maybe an article under his name with an outside link. Maybe. But then he would have to do a good job on the article about himself to avoid getting it deleted. This can be done, but a person has to be far more sophisticated than a dumb link.--Filll 14:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

 * He posted this reference everywhere where he found inspiration for his paintings, and got an indefinite block from wiki admins in return today. Pretty fast registering jan 3, being blocked indef jan 5th.... So, no this is not the way to do it ;-) Arnoutf 14:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Names in other languages
I am not sure whether the translations of the way in all European languages should be mentioned. It is often a translation of Way of St Jamer along the lines of Camino (local name for James) or Local name for James') Path or Way. This seems to me to be getting close to being a dictionary type of translation list. Not what wikipedia is meant for. I suggest we delete this list; perhaps with the exception of French; Spanish and Portugese as these translations are essential and most common. Arnoutf 12:47, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I would agree. This article seems to be like flypaper for nonsense.--Filll 13:58, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps Galician and Basque names might be retained, since those are local names of that area. I am not sure what format to retain them in. Perhaps a table is appropriate.--Filll 14:02, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree about keeping the Galician and Basque, also because they don't look like any of the others. Arnoutf 15:03, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Move of guides; travellogues etc
I suggest to move the vast majority of the links to wikitravel. Wikipedia is not a travel guide so these guides should have no place here. Wikitravel however IS a travel guide; so that information is probably best suited there. Arnoutf 15:08, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * That is a brilliant idea. We can provide a link for those interested, and clean up that mess. Good thinking !--Filll 15:12, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * How about using this template I found on the London article ;-) Arnoutf 15:27, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Excellent. I am going to clean out the books as well. This has to be done a couple of times a year at least I think or else the links and references just turn into a crap pile. For some reason, this subject just draws them out like flies.--Filll 15:51, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Guys you've done a great job on that, sorry if my MoS'ing got in the way and edit conflicted you.--Alf melmac 15:57, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Well I still do not know what to do with Which really seems like little more than advertising, but she has written several books about travels and went out of her way to write her own biography here and also a page even for Camino Chronicle, which I am not sure how it avoided getting deleted. So I left it. I tried to divide the books into real literary works by real writers and then just pure diary writing and guides by yahoos who walked on the camino.--Filll 16:01, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Susan Alcorn, Camino Chronicle: Walking to Santiago

 * It appears that WikiTravel does not want our left over links either. So I still feel bad in a way, although they certainly are not encyclopedic. I am asking on Pilgrim Wiki if we can have a page of pilgrimmage-related links there. Maybe they will allow it. For time being, I have decided as a sort of project to save the deleted links to Talk:Way of St. James/Links to see how many we get. I tried to put most of the deleted links from the last couple of years there. It needs some pruning etc obviously. When you see them all listed, it is clear that there are quite a few. As much as I would like to accommodate everyone, if we did that the article would soon deteriorate into a nightmare. And this is an encyclopedia after all.--Filll 14:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I notice, as sure as day follows night, more spam links appear on this site. I really wonder about making a separate page for people to shove crap links on. There seems to be an endless supply of garbage links for this article.--Filll 01:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

 * with over 20,000 people walking it every year it is bound to attract commercial interest and many hobbyists putting up their travellogue. Perhaps we should create a page List of crappy way of St. James links ;-) Arnoutf 08:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

PreChristian route
After having this page on my watch list for a couple of months, I realize that we have improved it quite a bit, but I am still struck that we need to improve its scholarly aspects. In particular, I am still quite interested in its preChristian origins. I will keep an eye out to see what I can find. --Filll 14:55, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Look at how big the crap pile has become
These are the culled commercial etc links from the last little while: Talk:Way of St. James/Links--Filll 20:31, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Lead photo
Recently the photo of the scallop was swapped with that of the cathedral. I think that is not a good idea. This article is not about Santiago the Compostella, or even the Cathedral of that town; but about the pilgrimage towards that town. In other words it is about the road, not the goal. The scallop, not the cathedral, is the symbol of the road; hence it should be used, not the cathedral. Please do not change back again. Arnoutf 09:47, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Holy Year or Jubilee of Compostela
There is no article about the Holy Year or Jubilee of Compostela like this: Heiliges Compostelanisches Jahr --139.18.15.12 19:24, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * You are free to create it. That is the beauty of Wiki. Arnoutf 20:59, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

THE WAY IN OTHER LANGUAGES
After discussion above we decided only to list the way in languages of areas the way (or an important version) crosses. Ie we included Spanish, Basque, Gallician, French (and for important variations) Portugese. As Wiki is not a dictionary we do not add the name in Dutch, Danish, Finnish, Russian, Chinese so ALSO NOT IN GERMAN. (I put this shouting as there is a tendency to add Jakobsweg (German)) for some obscure reason, while none of the other languages are ever used. Arnoutf 17:16, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

The significance of the scallop symbol
The scallop shell depicted on the page is upside down!! Many people make this mistake, because of the Shell Oil company logo. However, the correct shell symbol for the Way of St. James is with the flat side on top and the round side on the bottom. In Spain a blus and yellow stylized version is sideways. Someone should place pictures of St. James waymarks here or pictures of stamps to clarify. Also, the text written here about the origins of the shell symbol seem to contradict the information on the page about the Codex Calixtinus, which many people take to be the definitive Way of St. James source. Jane 13:59, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You're completely right; please upload a better image if you have one. Also the mystic pre christian speculation about the shell should be removed or provided with decent references. Arnoutf 14:08, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I replaced the shell with a map, since that seems more appropriate anyway and was already out on Wiki commons in other languages. For this section on the significance of the shell I will need to do a bit more research. Now I'm curious. Jane 07:07, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Actual remains of St. James
Is it reasonable to claim that the Santiago Compestella contains the actual remains of St. James and this is a fact? Or is it more accurately described as a legend? Or even myth? I will not get in an edit war over this.--Filll 15:00, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Santiago de Compostella, claims this. However these remains appeared suddenly in the 11th century (or some other early medieval date), while James was buried there in the 1st century (so the actual grave has been lost for about 1,000 yrs). The grave was found at the time the Pope thought it would be a good moment to disrupt the ongoing warring between the Christian Northern Spanish kingdoms and make them focus on the Mores. The pilgrimage (crossing frontlines all the time) would make war between the Christian kingdoms almost impossible, so (very cynically put) the moment of the rediscovery of James' remains was very fortuitous for the Roman Catholic church. In other words, I would put it as legend, rather than fact; unless you have a good (non religious biased) source. Arnoutf 18:59, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

That is what I thought. So I propose to revert the last change accordingly.--Filll 19:05, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree and did so (and notified the editor who changed it politely why I did so on his/her talk page). Arnoutf 19:07, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Indulgences and Purgatory
I question two unsourced statements in this article that seem to result from a flawed understanding of indulgences:

 * It was considered one of three pilgrimages on which all sins could be forgiven; the others are the Via Francigena to Rome and the pilgrimage to Jerusalem.

 * In medieval catholicism, the "Compostela" counted as an act of indulgence. The bearer was entitled to a reduction by half of their time in purgatory, or, if the Compostela was obtained in a Holy Year, a full indulgence.

The first statement seems to refer to a plenary indulgence, but a plenary indulgence does not forgive any sins, it only removes all of the temporal punishments of a sin that has already been forgiven.

The second statement talks about "time in purgatory", but a partial indulgence does not refer to any amount of time in purgatory, but to temporal punishments here on earth. These may or may not be correlated in some way to "time in purgatory", but that is mere theological speculation.

I think that the editors who wrote these statements probably meant:

 * It was considered one of three pilgrimages on which a plenary indulgence could be earned; the others are the Via Francigena to Rome and the pilgrimage to Jerusalem.

 * In medieval catholicism, the "Compostela" counted as an act of indulgence. The bearer was entitled to a partial indulgence, if the Compostela was obtained in a Holy Year, a plenary indulgence.

But even so, a source should be cited. Rwflammang 17:12, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I had a smile on my face when I read your comment, which is very insightful. If you go into the history of the crusades and the pilgrimages to the holy land, Rome and Santiago, you will find that your question was never answered. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Certainly most Santiago pilgrims through the centuries felt that they were going for a plenary indulgence. This is one of the basic problems with the indulgence system that Martin Luther objected to so strongly after his own pilgrimage to Rome. He felt that the Catholic church was corrupting itself by making false promises to the common people. I have a little book that spells it all out and makes it quite clear that the official church policy was contradictory for about 250-300 years. Actually, they are still trying to straighten this out, but since most pilgrims are tourists nowadays anyway, it's sort of a moot point. The quotes you are seeking are to be found in various canon writings in France and Italy. Pretty dull stuff. I think it is important to mention what the pilgrims and crusaders were led to believe, namely that they would be granted 100% forgiveness for all sins. They really needed to believe this in order to take valuable months off from farming duties or whatever else they did at the time. Jane 13:08, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

 * So. Do you have a source? Rwflammang 19:37, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * this, this, and this. Arnoutf 19:56, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Cool links! Thanks Arnout! I was thinking of adding Canterbury to the list of 3 Catholic pilgrimages, since that was a big pilgrimage place from the 12th century on, as well being a Unesco site today for many of the same reasons as the Way of St. James. Jane 11:13, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * There is probable a lot more in the printed press, but I had no time to find more (or build it into the article). At least we can start replacing the (justified) fact tags with these.
 * The 3 catholic pilgrimages are the three only places where a full indulgence could be gotten; i.e. of which city the archbishop (or pope) could forgive all sins in a single go. I am pretty sure that was never the case for Canterbury, that would be a reason for me not to add it. Arnoutf 11:55, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Extra links
I have continued to compile an approximate list of our removed references at Talk:Way of St. James/Links. Please look at the list and realize that we cannot accommodate all those who wish to include commercial links etc in this article. This is not a list of links and commercial advertisements, but an encyclopedia.--Filll 15:40, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I culled out the links a bit with what accumulated in the last couple of months I think. This just builds up like crud.--Filll 21:00, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Are there criteria for a work's inclusion here? Neither Louise Collis nor her book have articles and neither is mentioned in the article on Margery Kempe, the woman whose book is the basis for that of Collis. The volume by Staley might be a better choice if Kempe is to be included at all. JimCubb 18:25, 9 October 2007 (UTC) I am removing the Louise Collis reference. The work seems to be a commentary on the work of Margery Kempe and, as stated above, is not sufficiently notable to have its own article. JimCubb 06:31, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * We try to keep both additional reading and links manageable (ie not more than about 10). This is not easy as there at tens of thousands of books. In general, for books and links both it should be very notable and in English. Arnoutf 09:43, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

We regularly cull out the lists of books and external links that people suggest. I have captured about half of what has been suggested and placed it in Talk:Way of St. James/Links. From examination of this list, it should be clear that: We try to be reasonable about this and not too aggressive, and err on the side of generosity, but as you can see, this still leaves many people unhappy, and also leaves many questionable links and books in the article itself.--Filll 12:20, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * We cannot acccommodate all links and books that people want in the article
 * Most of the links and books are of minimal interest or relevance
 * If the links and books and other ephemera were not regularly trimmed and managed, the article would soon be buried in a sea of cruft

It would be appropriate to have at least one book on the list that has a description of the pilgrimage either from the perspective of a pilgrim or an observer during the Middle Ages. It seems to me from a cursory reading that the Kempe book does that although the pilgrimage is a very small part of her book. An historical novel that is set in the town in the Middle Ages might be useful to someone.

I find it hard to imagine that an interested person would read a book on the pilgrimage written by an American actress, a Brazilian Crowley-influenced mystic or a British humourist. It is somewhat easier to imagine an interested person slogging through the Michener book in order to read the single chapter that is relevant.

However, as there are two editors who have appointed themselves as the sole, bold arbiters of what is appropriate for this section of this article, the works cited above are the only literary works that are available to a user of WP, a person who comes to gain information. JimCubb 04:20, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Your books seem relevant, and following your reasoning to the point, I would have no problem with their addition. I agree Coelho is a rather disappointing mystic romantisation of the Way, however it is very well-known and for many (especially Brasilian) pilgrim a motivation to walk the way. For that reason alone it is notable.
 * The reason why I (and I think Filll as well) tend to be harsh is that many pilgrims provide links to what is basically "My hike of the Camino" website, or small circulation print. These sources often tend to be (I am overstating slightly but really not that much) badly written, poorly illustrated (holiday quality photos), are ofen not in English, tend to be incomplete personal accounts with little to no interest for anyone but close relatives of the author. I guess you agree these publications should be kept out at all cost.
 * But even in the published literature there are by now hundreds of books, which cannot all be listed. If you have a book that you think should be listed, providing motivation on this talk page will likely prevent quick deletion; at least by me. I hope with this explanation you understand my fairly harsh and bold actions in the link and further reading section. It is not because I want to claim ownership, but merely to prevent this article being (literally) swamped in irrelevant references, links and further readings. Arnoutf 09:47, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. If anyone can come up with a more reasonable rationale for how to decide which books and links to include and describe it here on the talk page, then we will probably follow it. We are not some sort of self-appointed guardians here. I personally do not care, except that I want there to be some order in what we include, since we obviously cannot include everything. Look at the material I have removed in the link above. Do you think we can or should have all of that in the article? If we did that, how easy would it be to find anything of interest? I am not an expert in the literature describing the pilgrimmage and any assistance would be welcomed. My only criteria that I have applied is notability, which is admittedly hard to determine and maybe inadequate in this case.--Filll 13:21, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I setup some of the initial categories for this article, and added some of the entries, including those for Camino Chronicle by Susan Alcorn, my wife. Those have since been deleted. This is not about that - just letting you know upfront. I do consider myself somewhat of an expert on current usage of the Way of St. James, and on the popular literature about it, as I have maintained a non commercial webpage about the Camino since 2003, as a way of giving back for what I got when walking it in 2001. I try to read every English language book that is discussed on any internet Camino forum. I have about forty books that have risen to the level of forum or listserv attention, and that includes some fiction ones, and some loosely related ones.

I can give you some criteria for at least determining a book has been read by a large number of people. Please stay with me for a moment. First we have the Amazon Sales Rank. If that number is to be used for anything, it should be observed daily for a week, as it is reset every week, and becomes more accurate as the week goes on. A little number in sales rank means lots of readers. The second factor to examine is book published date. If the Amazon Sales Rank is divided by years in print, you get an average sales rank per year. For example, at this moment Paul Coehlo's book has a sales rank of about 12000, and has been in print since 1995 - 12 years. That gives an average yearly sales rank of 1000. Shirley Maclaine's book has a rank of about 30000, and has been in print since 2001 - 7 years, so an average yearly rank per year of about 4000. Tim Moore's book, which I like, but is a travelogue, has a rank of about 200,000 and has been in print for 2 years, so an average yearly rank of 100,000. Gitliz and Davidson's Pilgrimage Road to Santiago is most popular Camino history book out and has a sales rank of 20000, and was published in 2000, so roughly a yearly sales rank of 3000. If you include anything with a yearly sales rank of under 10,000 you will have a very short list and each item will be a book of importance to the Way of St. James, just because of the attention it brings to the trail.

I think links with high text content should be included but don't know how an editor without Camino knowledge could judge. Maybe count clicks to 1st content page and count ads shown enroute. If more than 2 clicks or 2 ads, eliminate.

One nit - the List of Confraternities should say something like List of Associations, as Confraternity is a specific Catholic term. There has been discussion in AmericanPilgrims.com about becoming a Confraternity, but it has not happened.

This article badly needs an editor with academic knowledge in the subject. Important content is being removed without malice, but just lack of knowledge of the material. For example, Louise Collis's book on Margery Kempe. Why would one remove a reference to one of the very few English language accounts of someone who walked the Way of Saint James during medieval times? There is an account soon to be republished, of a woman who walked the Way in 1920. This will be a valuable reference to someone interested in the more recent history of the Way of St. James, but the current editors I'm sure would delete it if entered. 76.202.63.253 (talk) 20:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

 * I agree, a few more links are possible; and an editor with academic knowledge of the way would be welcome to do so. Although I walked it (from the Netherlands passing the Way of Tours) I do not think I qualify.
 * However, I would like to present the reason why we are so 'bold' in removing the links/further reading. At one time there were literary dozens and dozens of references. Many to published books (of which there are many hundreds in dozens of languages). Afterwards several dozens were added. I think in total over 200! such references were removed. I am convinced this staggering number includes several valuable sources that would benefit the article, but I also think that in this specific case removing a few relevant references is less of a problem (mnd you a problem it is), compared to leaving up all the additions creating an ureadable lengthy list (made in good faith, no doubt). Arnoutf (talk) 22:52, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I would concur. I am no expert in this area. However, as I have noted above, unless we keep this list trimmed down, it soon grows beyond all reason. Take a look at the links I have removed over the last few months alone, here. If an expert was able to maintain this article and patrol it, great. Otherwise, we make do for now. I am sure we have removed useful material, and kept in material that should not be there, at least by someone's definition. That is unfortunately the tradeoff that has to be made when we do not have someone who is an academic specializing in the Way babysitting this article. --Filll (talk) 23:12, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

title: Talk:Camino de Santiago/Archive 1


text: Category:Traditional Chinese medicine

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Category:Traditional Chinese medicine


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/City Square

City Square
This article is strange. It describes a non notable shopping center with things like it receives a very high number of shoppers but also very interesting informations like has three car park basements, six levels of shops and many floors of Offices., ...shops and restaurants.... There is nothing notable, or specific, or of general interest. This could be the description of any shopping center anywhere. Maybe the special item in this one is that the Shopping centre itself also has two lifts, which carries shoppers from the lowest basement of the car park. Am I missing the crunchy bit in that article ? --Gtabary 14:30, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete, non-notable. Things like this could almost be classified as newbie tests if they weren't so long and detailed. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 16:11, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete: Not notable and a commonplace name. How many cities have city squares?  I hope this isn't the same user who misunderstands the importance of local institutions who has written other Singaporean articles.  Geogre 17:52, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Comment: You are wrong. The city square is just the name of a shopping centre. It is not a city with a square. User:Chan Han Xiang
 * Comment: I think this is a sign that wikipedia needs to be more upfront about what it considers to be "notable" and worthy of inclusion, rather than letting people invest considerable time making detailed articles and then suddenly finding them listed on VFD. Kappa 18:08, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * If we could only transwiki well written NPOV articles elsewhere...
 * I tried to address this in Your first article, specifically the item about "local-interest articles." However, the link to "your first article" is now the third link you see when you create a page, and unfortunately the comments on "local-interest" articles are so far down that I doubt that anyone reads them...
 * Comment' City Square is a very bad idea for an article title. 132.205.95.53 19:34, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete: It is listed on Shopping centres of Johor Bahru, which is listed in the article on Johor Bahru along with Places of Worship (Johor Bahru), Hotels of Johor Bahru, Housing estates of Johor Bahru and Hospitals of Johor Bahru. Seems that all of this could be handled in one article, if it needs to be handled at all. DCEdwards1966 20:53, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
 * I second that. Whoever wrote those could concentrate on writing about the community as a whole. Merge and redirect- Skysmith 09:09, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete Wyss 23:31, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Redirect to town square (as city square already does). -R. fiend 08:06, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete (non-notable/local interest) — [[User:Knowledge Seeker|Knowledge Seeker দ (talk)]] 08:13, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)


text:
Hungry Mother State Park

Hungry Mother State Park is a state park in southwestern Virginia.

Much of the land for Hungry Mother State Park was donated by local landowners to develop a new state park in Smyth County on Hungry Mother Creek. The park is one of the six original CCC parks that opened in June 1936. The park was added to the National Register of Historic Places in 2007.

Origins of name
It has frequently been noted on lists of unusual place names. A legend states that when the Native Americans destroyed several settlements on the New River south of the park, Molly Marley and her small child were among the survivors taken to the raiders’ base north of the park. They eventually escaped, wandering through the wilderness eating berries. Molly finally collapsed, and her child wandered down a creek. Upon finding help, the only words the child could utter were "Hungry Mother." When the search party arrived at the foot of the mountain where Molly had collapsed, they found the child's mother dead. Today, that mountain is Molly's Knob (3,270 feet), and the stream is Hungry Mother Creek.

title: Hungry Mother State Park


text:
File:Mapp&lucia dvd cover.jpg

DVD Cover for Mapp and Lucia TV series, published by Granada (new lower-resolution version)

title: File:Mapp&lucia dvd cover.jpg


text: Category:Organic food

title: Category:Organic food


text:
Template talk:Compu-stub

1
The icon in this template is listed for future deletion here. There are possible replacements listed on that page. If you like, you can join in the discussion there. – Quadell (talk) (help)  14:32, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)

I don't think this template should have an icon at all. Sure, icons are nifty, but why is it particularly important to draw anyone's attention to the fact that the article is about something computer-related (which is what an icon does) in the stub part of the article? To me it seems arbitrary and confusing -- I know that the first time one of these icons popped up while I was browsing I was thrown for a loop. To that end, I'm deleting the icon again, because it's just inappropriate to have one in this template. — Adam Conover † 17:13, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)

Many/most of the stub templates have icons. For now, I put in the GNOME system icon which is clearly legal (GPL)... —Tkinias 20:47, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I changed the link in this stub template from Computing to Computer. Template:Comp-sci-stub has just been created, and I thought the relationship between Computing and Computer science was confusing. By linking to Computer in this stub, it should be more clear that this is the stub for general computer-related stuff and that Template:Comp-sci-stub is more specific. FreplySpang (talk) 19:58, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

new look
This a good whay to make the computer stub enneke and removed the image relly shurd not be on stubs.

Do you like it?.**My Cat inn @ (talk)** 04:11, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

 * How about using this: [[Image:Desktop computer clipart - Yellow theme.svg|45px]] ?--HereToHelp 22:48, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Or [[Image:Nuvola apps mycomputer.png|32px]]? Seahen 11:49, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Or [[Image:Computer.svg|32px]] or [[Image:Computer_n_screen.svg|32px]]? These are both SVG's opposed to the current one. --Ysangkok 17:02, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Protected
Why is this template protected? TimBentley (talk) 21:13, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Good question... While switching icon, I'll unprotect. Circeus 02:35, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
 * On second thoughts, I remembered High-risk templates and had a look at List of indefinitely protected pages, which is the explanation. Circeus 02:38, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Interwiki links for this stub
Hi,

I noticed that when I go to the category for this stub, the category has several links to the same category in other languges. These lead to the same stub template in their languages. I would like to create inter-wiki links for Template:Compu-stub, but it appears to be protected. Could some kind user with the privileges to edit protected pages do this for me? Ae-a 20:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

 * Please add bg:Шаблон:Комп-мъниче. Thanks.--Петър Петров 17:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Move the stub boxes to a separate category?
Currently, this template is in the category Category:Stub message boxes which I find impossible to navigate when looking for the more specific computing stub boxes. Can we create a Category:Computing stub message boxes where this template and things like Template:Compu-AI-stub can go? (Of course, computing isn't really the problem here--it's the geographical and per-year template stubs.) Qwertyus (talk) 21:20, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

title: Template talk:Compu-stub


text:
Talk:Elizabeth Shelby

Untitled
This article was listed on votes for deletion; see Votes for deletion/Lt. Commander Shelby. [[User:Poccil|Peter O. (Talk, automation script)]] 14:33, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)

Name
Was her name ever given in the series. I looked her up in the encyclopedia and she is just listed under Lieutenant Commander Shelby.--NeilEvans 00:31, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I think her first name was given to her in the Peter David Star Trek: New Frontier novel series. AndreasKQ 23:25, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Vendetta
Just to clarify, Shelby DOESN'T die in Vendetta. The Chekov is wrecked by a stray Borg blast, it cuts through the secondary hull and through one of the warp pylons, she evacuates herself and Korsmo along with the surviving bridge staff, to the Repulse and Enterprise after the Borg are defeated. - Count23 05:25, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Elizabeth Shelby


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Naturub

Naturub
Naturub was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete

Advertising for a very obscure company. --LeeHunter 14:34, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Delete. "Today we have grown to be..."?? I wonder who this was written by...   — Asbestos | Talk 15:16, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Adv. --Gtabary 15:20, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete: Copy & paste from the company's advertising materials. Not a particularly notable Sri Lankan company. Geogre 17:54, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete advertisement. [[User:Xezbeth| Xezbeth ]] 19:34, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete I read it carefully, thinking it might be trimmed and edited into a concise little business article, then realized I was reading an ad for a bloody sweatshop. Wyss 23:28, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Comcat
 * Delete. Spam

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like other '/delete' pages is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.

title: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Naturub


text:
Cheptsa

The Cheptsa (Чепца; Чупчи) is a river in the north part of Udmurtian Republic (Udmurtia) and eastern Kirov Oblast, in Russia. It flows through the city Glazov and flows into the Vyatka in Kirovo-Chepetsk, east of Kirov. It is 501 km long, and its drainage basin covers 20400 km2.

title: Cheptsa


text:
Schalk Burger

Schalk Willem Petrus Burger Jr. (born 13 April 1983) is a South African former professional rugby union player. He played as a flanker for Saracens in the English Premiership and has won 86 caps for South Africa.

He was a member of the 2007 Rugby World Cup-winning team, has twice been named South African Rugby Player of the Year (in 2004 and 2011), and was named IRB Player of the Year in 2004, among other accolades. He also holds the record for the most appearances (84) and most tries scored (13) by a Springbok flanker. However, Burger's physical approach has also resulted in him being shown a yellow card six times in international rugby, second only to Italy's Marco Bortolami (7 times) as of June 2014. Burger has also suffered injuries, especially to his neck and knee, which have sidelined him for considerable periods at a time. He has also played four times for the Barbarians.

Early life
Burger is one of a handful of second-generation Springboks. His father, also called Schalk Burger, was an international lock, being capped for South Africa during the "isolation years" of the 1980s. Burger attended high school at Paarl Gimnasium, along with future teammate and Springbok captain Jean de Villiers, and enjoyed success in many sports. Burger attended Stellenbosch University and stayed in Eendrag Men's Residence before leaving in order to pursue a full-time rugby career.

Rugby career
After playing for the Under 21 Springbok side that won the U21 Rugby World Cup in 2002 and then captaining it in 2003, Burger was selected for the senior Springbok squad. He made his debut against Georgia in 2003 at the Rugby World Cup and has since carved out a name as one of the best flankers in the world with solid performances in the Super 12, Tri-Nations and Currie Cup.

2004
In 2004, Burger was selected as part of a rejuvenated Springbok squad which, under the guiding hand of new coach Jake White, went on to win the Tri-Nations trophy for the first time since Nick Mallett's team managed the feat in 1998.

To cap off a magnificent year, Burger was also awarded the most prestigious rugby player's award, the IRB International Player of the Year award in the 2004 season. In addition, he claimed the 2004 ABSA SA Rugby Player of the Year award.

2006
After an indifferent 2006 Super 14 season, during which Burger showed only flashes of the brilliance that took him to the peak of world rugby, he was to once again start in his favoured number 6 shirt ( openside flanker in South African rugby) in the national team for the upcoming expanded Tri-Nations test series against Australia and New Zealand. However, in the Springboks' Test match against Scotland on 17 June, Burger suffered a serious neck injury. The following day, it was confirmed that he would require cervical fusion surgery and would be out of action for at least the remainder of 2006. The injury and the required surgery were serious enough for White to tell the media, "I don't want to jump to conclusions – but there is a chance he may never play again." Burger's father told a Cape Town radio program that the injury was between his sixth and seventh cervical vertebrae, adding, "Although the operation is difficult the fact that the injury is lower down his neck is good for a future prognosis of making a full recovery." The South African Rugby Union released a statement on 24 June, the date of the surgery, indicating that the surgery was successful and that Burger would undergo six to eight months of rehabilitation, with plans to return him to the game.

2007 – Rugby World Cup Champion
Following successful surgery and rehabilitation, Burger returned to the Vodacom Stormers line-up on 13 January 2007, playing 55 minutes as the Stormers lost to the Bulls. Despite the loss, Burger did show flashes of the brilliance that took him to the peak of world rugby in 2004–05. After a shaky start to the 2007 Super 14 season, Burger inspired the Stormers to their first win of the campaign against the Chiefs as the Stormers recorded their first points of the season in a tense 21–16 victory at the Newlands Stadium.

In mid-2007 he was picked in the Springboks squad for the 2007 Rugby World Cup. He was linked with a move to Harlequins of the English Premiership after the cup.

During the Springboks' first match of the Rugby World Cup against Samoa, Burger was cited for a high tackle on Junior Polu, and on 11 September was given a four-match suspension which would have in theory kept him out of the team until the semi-final. However, this was reduced to a two-match suspension on appeal.

Burger would return to play a key role in South Africa's World Cup triumph as the Springboks defeated England 15–6 to lift the Webb Ellis trophy for the second time in four attempts.

2008
In March 2008, Burger was banned for openly abusing a touch judge in a Super 14 game for the Stormers against the Sharks in Durban. The touch judge in question had suggested the referee send Burger to the sin-bin for an offense that the referee hadn't seen. Upon leaving the field, Burger was seen to be gesticulating and shouting at the touch judge. The citing commissioner decided that Burger be banned for two weeks for his actions. After another great season which saw the Stormers finish just short of making the play-offs, Burger was selected by new coach Peter de Villiers for the Springboks' 2008 Tri Nations campaign.

2009

Burger was selected for the Springboks' to play the British & Irish Lions, not having played since injuring his calf muscle in April while playing for the Stormers.

During the opening minute of the second British & Irish Lions test at Loftus Versfeld, Pretoria, Burger made contact with the eyes of Lions winger Luke Fitzgerald. The incident was seen by touch judge Bryce Lawrence who reported it to match referee Christophe Berdos, who awarded a yellow card. Burger was subsequently cited by the commissioning officer for "making contact with the eye area" and then handed an eight-week ban. A later investigation by judicial officer Alan Hudson concluded that contact with the face was made but there was no intention to gouge Fitzgerald's eyes, but that Burger acted "contrary to good sportsmanship by making contact with the face in the eye area." Burger responded by saying "...I only have the utmost respect for the traditions of the wonderful game of rugby. Through my life and career I have always approached the game with the intention only of playing it hard and fair. I am not a rugby thug and will never intentionally engage in eye gouging or similar illegal actions."

2010

Burger was selected for the 2010 Tri Nations series as part of the South African squad to play six matches. The first game was against New Zealand on 10 July 2010 in Auckland. He started that match at blindside Flanker. South Africa lost that match 32–12. But in the second game against New Zealand which South Africa lost 31–17 Burger scored a try. He scored his second and final try of the tournament against New Zealand.

During the 2010 Currie Cup final, which lost to the Sharks 30–10, Burger suffered a broken rib. However, he was not substituted during the match, and also scored Western Province's only try. Scans after the game revealed the injury, which would force Burger to miss the 2010 end-of-year rugby union tests against the Home Unions.

2011 – Rugby World Cup
Burger was selected for the 2011 Rugby World Cup. He played the first game against Wales which South Africa won 17–16. He played all the matches in group D. South Africa were knocked out however in the Quarter Finals against Australia. He was ruled out of South Africa's Summer tour of England with injury. In November at the end-of-year awards ceremony in Johannesburg, Burger was named the SARU's Player of the Year for the second time, becoming the fifth Springbok to win the award more than once.

2012–13
Over the following two seasons, Burger struggled with injury and illness.

During preparations for the 2013 Super Rugby season, Burger pulled up during a running exercise after experiencing spasms in his left calf. A back scan revealed a cyst next to his spinal cord impacting the nerve which influenced the calf muscle's performance, and he underwent an operation to drain the cyst and relieve pressure on the nerve. It was thought at the time that Burger would miss at least the first three weeks of the season.

However, severe complications followed. During the initial operation, Burger contracted a hospital bug, which resulted in bacterial meningitis. At one stage during the isolation period, Burger's condition became so serious that there were genuine fears for his life. After his situation had improved, he then had to endure a series of operations to remove the cyst completely. In total, Burger would spend six weeks in hospital and a further eight weeks recovering indoors. Burger resumed training at the end of July, but was reluctant to set a definite return date: "To give a timeline is quite difficult... I certainly don't want to over-commit. The good news is that I can start to train properly and get the heart-rate up. That, in itself, is exciting news and I look forward to increasing my training schedule over the next few weeks with the help of the strength and conditioning team at WP Rugby. We will then reassess things again in a month's time." Burger finally returned to action in late September, coming off the bench for the final 20 minutes of the Currie Cup match between Western Province and Free State Cheetahs in Bloemfontein. Although it was not a spectacular comeback, he emerged unscathed as Western Province came from behind to win 29–27. It was Burger's first competitive appearance since injuring his knee 18 months earlier.

2014
On 24 May, during the Stormers' 33–0 win over the Cheetahs, Burger suffered a neck injury. The injury was not serious, but he failed to recover in time for the following match against the Sharks in Durban. On 2 June, it was announced that Burger had signed a two-year contract with Japanese Top League side Suntory Sungoliath. As part of his contract, he would still be available to play for the and the national side, but would not feature during the 2014 Currie Cup. For the 2014 June test series against Wales and Scotland, Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer named Burger and Victor Matfield in the squad of 36 players. Both had not played for South Africa since the 2011 World Cup.

2015 – Rugby World Cup Bronze Medalist
Due to his success in returning to the Springboks after recovering from spinal meningitis, he was awarded the Comeback of the Year Award at the Laureus World Sports Awards. He joined the list of Super Rugby centurions during their Round 7 match against the in Dunedin, starting the match which ended in a 21–39 defeat for the Stormers. Selected as part of the Springbok squad at the 2015 Rugby World Cup, Schalk started in all seven matches, the majority as openside flanker, with a sole appearance as number eight in their Pool B match against Japan. The Springboks reached the semi-finals, bowing out to eventual champions New Zealand (18–20), before clinching the Bronze Final against Argentina (24–13). Burger scored tries against Samoa and Scotland in the pool stages, and assisted Fourie du Preez's try in their victory against Wales (23–19) in the Quarter Finals. Schalk finished the tournament as the player with the equal second most RWC tournament participations (4), equal third most RWC matches won (16), as well as being the player with the equal second highest number of RWC matches contested (20), bested solely by Jason Leonard and Richie McCaw (22). Burger was also drawn into 2015 RWC sponsors Société Générale's dream team, taking the position of openside flanker. Dismissing any notion of continuing to play for the Springboks in 2016 and beyond, Burger had suggested the commencement of his international retirement after the 2015 RWC Bronze Final.

2016 – Saracens
Burger signed a two-year deal to join English Premiership side Saracens prior to the 2016–2017 season. He helped Saracens win the European Champions Cup in 2017 and 2019, featuring in both finals. In December 2018 Burger announced that he would be leaving Saracens at the end of the 2018-2019 season to return to Cape Town.

Test Match record
Pld = Games Played, W = Games Won, D = Games Drawn, L = Games Lost, Tri = Tries Scored, Pts = Points Scored

Personal life
Burger is the eldest child of Schalk Burger Snr and his wife Myra. He has two younger siblings – brother Tiaan and sister René, who in 2008 gained international attention for speaking out after she was gang-raped. When not playing rugby, Burger lives and works with his family on the Welbedacht Wine Estate near Wellington, Western Cape.

After dating for six years, Burger was engaged to Michele de Munck, an interior designer from Cape Town. They married at the Welbedacht Estate on 3 December 2011. The couple had their first child, Schalk Jr, in August 2012, and their second son Nicol was born in March 2014.

title: Schalk Burger


text:
Talk:Sejmik

Questions

 * provincial (in every voivodship). In practice, they were the most important ones - why?

We also need to expand on history behind Sejmiks - i.e. what legal acts made them possible, and when did they end? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 14:38, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The term "sejm" comes from an Old Polish expression denoting a meeting of the populace. The General Sejm, first convoked by the king in 1493, evolved from earlier regional and provincial meetings (sejmiks), which apparently had arisen without benefit of formal legal acts.

I presume "pl.," as used by you, means "Polish." Unfortunately, in general English usage this abbreviation means "plural." Hence in the present context I either skip the explanation or write it out in full: "Polish." Logologist 06:14, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

membership
what we need most of all is to know who was eligible to vote and/or serve in these assemblies, and what proportion of the populace were they

 * All nobles could participate in Sejmiks. There might have been some rules about regions - i.e. one should go to his regional Sejmik - but I am not so sure about this, same for functions - could a noble from different district be elected to another Sejmik? Proportions, which varied from province to province, was on average 10% in the entire PLCommonwealth (10% of PLC was nobility). Perhaps 5% since women could not vote, and I am not sure if we should ajdust it somehow for children (never heard about any age census rule, need to read up on this).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:28, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Update - it is all written in the article already, dear anon: the nihil novi act from 1505 decided that only szlachta from given region can participate in the regional Sejmik. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 18:43, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Useful quote from Płaza
Sejmiki występowały na każdym szczeblu podziału administracyjnego. Mieliśmy więc sejmiki powiatowe, ziemskie, wojewódzkie i prowincjalne. Przedstawiały one jednak ogromną mozaikę strukturalną, w której trudno czasem dopatrzeć się jakiejś konsekwencja, ale wynikało to z historycznego, powolnego kształtowania się tej struktury sejmikowej, na co oddziaływało wiele czynników. Przede wszystkim nie wszystkie jednostki poszczególnych szczebli miały sejmiki. Sejmiki powiatowe były prawie regułą w Wielkim Księstwie Litewskim, ale do rzadkości należały w Koronie. Sejmiki ziemskie wprawdzie występowały w każdej ziemi, ale ich znaczenie zależało od tego, czy ziemia miała status jednostki samodzielnej, jakby na prawach województwa, czy też normalnie wchodziła w skład województwa. Sejmiki wojewódzkie były regułą w Koronie; nie wystepowały (poza wyjątkami) na Litwie. Nie każde jednak województwo koronne miało sejmik, niekiedy dwa duże miały wspólny sejmik. Sejmik prowincjonalne w okresie 1572-1632) były w zaniku. Poza tym ta sejmikowa struktura bynajmniej nie była zhierachizowana, jakby to pozornie wynikało z wyliczenia tych sejmików. Występowały w niej tylko pewne elementy hierarchii, jakby podporządkowania, ale jedynie na niektórych terytoriach i między niektórymi tylko sejmikami. Wyjątkowo i raczej tylko teoretycznie mogła ona przybrać kształt wielostopniowej piramidy: sejmiki powiatowe, ziemskie, wojewódzkie, sejmik generalny kilku województw, sejmik prowincjalny i wreszcie sejm, który byłby aż szóstym szczeblem. W sumie tych różnych okręgów sejmikowych, wzajemnie się zresztą zazębiających, było w całej Rzeczypospolitej Obojga Narodów aż około stu, oczywiście przy zliczeniu wszystkich rodzajów funkcjonalnych. Ta mozaika okręgów sejmikowych miała swoje wielorakie konsekwencje, pogłębiane jeszcze w wielu wypadkach nieracjonalnym rozmieszczeniem siedzib sejmikowych. Przede wszystkim rzutowała na liczebność uczestników sejmików i na ich skład a w rezultacie na przebieg obrad sejmikowych oraz na treść i znaczenie polityczne ich uchwał tudzież pozycję posłów na sejmie.

title: Talk:Sejmik


text:
Kevin Coyne

Kevin Coyne (27 January 1944 – 2 December 2004) was an English musician, singer, composer, film-maker, and a writer of lyrics, stories and poems. He was born in Derby, Derbyshire, England, and died in his adopted home of Nuremberg, Bavaria, Germany.

Coyne was critically acclaimed for his unorthodox style of blues-influenced guitar composition, the intense quality of his vocal delivery, and his lyrics describing injustice to the mentally ill. Musicians who have described themselves as Coyne fans include Sting and John Lydon. In the mid-1970s, prior to the formation of the Police, Coyne's band included guitarist Andy Summers. BBC disc jockey Andy Kershaw described Coyne as "a national treasure who keeps getting better" and as one of the great British blues voices.

Over many years Coyne produced the art work for many of his own album covers. His move to Germany, in the 1980s, saw his work on full-size paintings blossom in its own right.

Early days
As a teenager and young adult Coyne studied at the Joseph Wright School of Art from 1957 to 1961 and then studied graphics and painting at Derby School of Art from 1961 to 1965. There he met Nick Cudworth (piano, acoustic guitar). His love of American bluesmen developed, as did his song-craft and his guitar and vocal talents.

At the conclusion of his arts training, Coyne began the work that would change him forever – he spent the three years, from 1965 to 1968, working as a social therapist and psychiatric nurse at Whittingham Hospital near Preston in Lancashire and then for "The Soho Project" in London as a drugs counsellor During this period of working with the mentally ill he performed regularly. Subsequently, his musical aspirations took precedence and he signed a record deal in 1969.

Joined by Dave Clague (bass, acoustic guitar, ex-Bonzo Dog Doo-Dah Band), Coyne's band got an early break as a result of a demo heard by John Peel, who in 1969 signed them to his Dandelion Records label. At first billed as Coyne-Clague (an early Dandelion release erroneously named them just "Clague"), the band soon altered its name to Siren. Reviewing the band's 1971 LP Strange Locomotion, Robert Christgau wrote in Christgau's Record Guide: Rock Albums of the Seventies (1981): "Like Fleetwood Mac, this is British blues that neither chokes on false roots nor enmires itself in boogie reductionism. Kevin Coyne's humorously belligerent drawl embodies the band's wit and its punk chauvinism. Mistake: 'Fetch Me My Woman,' which (second mistake) goes on for 7:40."

An established artist
In 1973 he appeared on the BBC's The Old Grey Whistle Test, performing "I Want My Crown" and "House on the Hill" with guitarist Gordon Smith and percussionist Chilli Charles. In 1975 Coyne and his band performed at the alternative festival held to protest against the Eurovision Song Contest 1975 in Stockholm; footage from the concert was later released as the 1976 film Musikfilmen.

In late 1975 and 1976 Coyne completed the musical England, England, written with playwright Snoo Wilson, and described as "an evocation of the Kray twins". The musical, directed by Dusty Hughes, was performed in August 1977 at the Jeannetta Cochrane Theatre, in Holborn, London. It drew attention to the associations between fascism and the type of British nationalism that later saw the rise of the National Front and the election of Margaret Thatcher. From 18 August to 24 September 1977 it played at the Bush Theatre in Shepherd's Bush.

In 1978 Coyne collaborated with fellow Derby Art School graduate Ian Breakwell to produce the film The Institution based on Breakwell's Artist Placement Group work at Rampton Secure Hospital in Nottinghamshire.

Early in his career, Coyne turned down a meeting with founder of Elektra Records Jac Holzman (Coyne's band Siren were on Elektra in America) to discuss replacing Jim Morrison in the Doors. "I didn't like the leather trousers!" was Coynes' alleged reason.

Coyne's first solo album, mainly with only his voice and guitar, was Case History (1972), released on Peel's Dandelion label. It was not a success, but it was noticed by Virgin Records, which signed Coyne and released his 1973 album Marjory Razorblade. The single "Marlene" (b/w "Everybody Says"), taken from the album and released in August 1973, was the first Virgin single.

Coyne was the second artist signed to Virgin Records, after Mike Oldfield. Coyne got on well with label-mates such as John Lydon, who played "Eastbourne Ladies" on a Desert Island Discs–type show, and the Mekons, who recorded his "Having a Party", an attack on Richard Branson. Described as being musically "... a mixture of blues and music hall comedy, with a punk edge", the 1973 album contained many notable songs, such as "Eastbourne Ladies" and "House on the Hill" about life in a psychiatric institution. It was the record that established Coyne's reputation.

In 1976 Coyne released the live album In Living Black and White that included Zoot Money, Andy Summers, Steve Thompson and Peter Woolf. Culled from three shows, it featured a cover of Dylan's Knocking on Heaven's Door.

Released in 1979, the album Babble, by Coyne and singer Dagmar Krause, was subtitled Songs for Lonely Lovers, with Q Magazine noting that Coyne's and Krause's voices complement each other so well (...) the song function as a kind of exchange."

The subsequent tour courted controversy when Coyne suggested, in the theatre presentation of the piece, that the destructive relationship between the two lovers could have been based on The Moors Murderers. Two performances at the Theatre Royal in Stratford, London were cancelled at short notice by Newham Council following negative press reports in The Sun and the Evening Standard. The show was eventually staged, for four nights, at the Oval House in Kennington. Reviewing the show for the NME, Paul Du Noyer wrote:

"'Babble' is a particularly thorough, painstaking exploration of the reality of one relationship, stripped of romance and artifice. The format employed is correspondingly stark. Against a stage-set of light-bulb, table and chairs Coyne and his partner Dagmar Krause stand at either side; the only accompaniment comes from Bob Ward and Brian Godding, playing electric and acoustic guitar in the gloom behind."

American singer/songwriter Will Oldham claimed that the Babble album had "changed my life" and he recorded two of the songs himself. Oldham also went on to form a side project called The Babblers – who strictly played covers of songs from Babble. Extracts from a performance of Babble, in Berlin, were included in the short German film Herz Aus Feuer (1979) by Claudia Strauven and Wolfgang Kraesze.

The album Politicz, featuring Peter Kirtley on guitar and Steve Bull on keyboards, was released in 1982. AllMusic's reviewer Dean McFarlane described the album as "One of the British singer/songwriter's more outwardly experimental records, this album contains some of his most intimate work, deeply personal songs and techniques which were taking him further and further away from tradition... strictly a post-punk album with a humorous political agenda". The same year Coyne appeared in concert with his band (Peter Kirtley (guitar), Steve Lamb (bass), Steve Bull (keyboards) and Dave Wilson(drums)) live in front of the Berlin Wall at the Tempodrom. The concert was later issued on the 2008 DVD At the Last Wall (Dockland Productions, Meyer Records).

Nuremberg
Following a nervous breakdown and increasing difficulties with drink, Coyne left the UK in 1985. He settled in Nuremberg, West Germany and having given up alcohol, never stopped recording and touring, as well as writing books and exhibiting his paintings.

Coyne's move to Germany saw his writing and painting career blossom. He published four books, two of which, Showbusiness and Party Dress, were published by Serpent's Tail in London. There were numerous exhibitions of his visual work throughout Europe. Those in Berlin, Amsterdam and Zürich were well reviewed and attended.

In the late 1980s Coyne acted on stage, playing the small part of a rock star in Linie Eins (Line One), a German musical, at the Nuremberg Opera House. At the start of the 1990s Virgin began reissuing the albums on CD. This included a collection of Peel sessions from the period 1973 -1990. Q Magazine noted that "the artistic focus of his albums is lost (...) the Peel Session is more fun".

His 1995 album, The Adventures of Crazy Frank, was based on a stage musical about English comedian Frank Randle, with Coyne in the title role. It also starred the singer Julia Kempken who was erroneously listed in The Guardian obituary as Coyne's wife. Kempken later wrote fondly of this mistake, suggesting that her performance on stage as Randle's wife had been so strong as to transform her, in the eyes of the press, into Coyne's actual wife.

In Germany his sons from his first marriage, Eugene and Robert, appeared on recordings such as Tough And Sweet (1993) and Sugar Candy Taxi (1999), with guitarist and multi-instrumentalist Robert joining his band. His later German recordings, including Knocking on Your Brain (1997) often featured the "Paradise Band". In later years he also collaborated with Brendan Croker on Life Is Almost Wonderful, with Jon Langford of the Mekons (on One Day in Chicago) and with Gary Lucas once of Captain Beefheart's Magic Band (on Knocking on Your Brain). A reunion with original Siren members Dave Clague and Nick Cudworth happened for a John Peel's Dandelion Records DVD, alongside solo performances by Coyne.

In a 2004 interview with Frank Bangay, Coyne named his favourite blues musicians as Robert Johnson, Leroy Carr, Peetie Wheatstraw and Tommy McClennan

Death
Diagnosed with lung fibrosis in 2002, Coyne died at his home in Germany in 2004. He was survived by his wife Helmi and his sons Eugene, Robert and Nico.

Writing in his obituary in The Guardian, Alan Clayson said, "... Virgin's press office referred to him as an "anti-star" ... If he meant nothing in the Top 40, Coyne was appreciated as a songwriter's songwriter, and collaborated with musicians such as Zoot Money, Andy Summers, Carla Bley, Robert Wyatt... He earned, too, the admiration of Johnny Rotten and Sting. Coyne was infinitely less precious and artistically self-centred than other artists of that era, such as Nick Drake, Melanie Safka and James Taylor, whose primarily acoustic albums appealed more to self-doubting adolescent diarists than fans of heavy metal, jazz-rock and similar genres that dominated early 1970s rock."

2007 tributes
In 2007, the Nightingales recorded a version of "Good Boy" for their album Out of True, Jackie Leven recorded a song about Coyne on his album Oh What A Blow The Phantom Dealt Me!, and "Here Come The Urban Ravens" featured on the album, Whispers From The Offing – A Tribute to Kevin Coyne, put together by Coyne's friend Frank Bangay.

The full track listing for the CD version of the album was:

 * 1) "Black Cloud" – Nigel Burch
 * 2) "Talking To No One" – Big Mehr and friend
 * 3) "Born Crazy" – Razz
 * 4) "Sand All Yellow" – Goldfish
 * 5) "Cycling" – Dog Latin
 * 6) "Marlene" – Nikki Sudden
 * 7) "Raindrops on the Window" – Kevin Hewick
 * 8) "Hello Judas" – Alternative TV
 * 9) "I Only Want To See You Smile" – Veronique Acoustique
 * 10) "Blame It on the Night" – Grae J Wall
 * 11) "My Evil Island Home" – Jowe Head
 * 12) "Case History No 2" – Pascal Regis
 * 13) "House on the Hill" – Leo O'Kelly
 * 14) "Mad Boy No2" – Frank Bangay and almost real
 * 15) "Looking for the River" – Chris Connelly
 * 16) "Victoria Smiles" – Heinz Rudolf Kunze
 * 17) "Are We Dreaming?" – The Otters (Ft. Mark Astronaut)
 * 18) "Strange Pictures" – Dave Russell
 * 19) "Weirdo" – Joey Stack
 * 20) "A Loving Hand" – Clive Product
 * 21) "Lonesome Valley" – Stumble on the Valves
 * 22) "Here Come The Urban Ravens" – Jackie Leven

 * The downloaded version also includes two bonus tracks – Sally Timm's "I'm Just A Man" and Jon Langford's "Having a Party" in Coyne's own voice.

In 2008 Swiss performance artist Pipilotti Rist produced a video in which she mimes "Jackie and Edna" against the background of various images, including film taken from a moving train. This video was exhibited in Helsinki's Kiasma Gallery in January 2012 as part of the "Thank you for the Music" exhibition.

Critical appraisal
Although Coyne has been neglected by popular music historians and academics, George McKay's 2013 book Shakin' All Over: Popular Music and Disability, features a critical discussion of Coyne's work. The book opens with an epigraph from Coyne: 'anything that rhymes with "me"' (from the song "Fat Girl" as performed on the 1977 album In Living Black and White). Describing him as 'the great lost English singer-songwriter' with his 'social-work approach to pop', McKay discusses the 1978 song "Having a Party" in the context of songs about the destructive economy of the pop industry. He also notes Coyne's 'anti-star' status and his innovative 'anti'-guitar playing: "Not being able, or electing not, to play the instrument "properly", and hearing other voices while singing: there is something culturally disabling about each of these artistic choices, quite apart from the lyrical terrain".

On 15 June 2017 Coyne was commemorated with the unveiling of a blue plaque at the University of Derby Art School.

In January 2018, an exhibition of Coyne's work was staged at the city gallery Alte Feuerwache in Amberg An exhibition, accompanied by a 70-page catalogue, compiled by Stefan Voit, was held from 9 June to 5 August 2018, at the Städtische Galerie Cordonhaus in Cham.

In 2024 Coyne was featured in Underground: The Illustrated Bible of Cursed Rockers and High Priestesses of Sound by Arnaud Le Gouefflec and Nicolas Moog.

BBC disc jockey Andy Kershaw described Coyne as "a national treasure who keeps getting better" and as one of the great British blues voices.

Solo and with his band

 * (2019) Live At Rockpalast 1979. (2CDs + DVD) (Mig Music/Indigo; also previous editions without video, by other publishers.)
 * (2013) Voice Of The Outsider: The Best of Kevin Coyne (Spectrum Audio)
 * (2010) I Want My Crown: The Anthology 1973-1980 (CD boxed-set)
 * (2008) On Air (Live at Radio Bremen, 18 August 1975)
 * (2006) Underground
 * (2005) One Day in Chicago (with Jon Langford & the Pine Valley Cosmonauts) (Buried Treasure Records)
 * (2004) Donut City (Turpentine Records)
 * (2002) Carnival (Ruf Records)
 * (2002) Life is Almost Wonderful (with Brendan Croker)
 * (2000) Room Full of Fools (Ruf Records)
 * (2000) Sugar Candy Taxi (Ruf Records)
 * (2000) Bittersweet Lovesongs
 * (1997) Live Rough and More (Golden Hind)
 * (1997) Knocking on Your Brain
 * (1995) The Adventures of Crazy Frank
 * (1995) The Club Rondo (with Siren, material recorded in 1969/1971) (DJC Records)
 * (1994) Let's do it (with Siren, with material recorded in 1969/1970) (DJC Records)
 * (1994) Rabbits (with Siren, material recorded in 1969/70) (DJC Records)
 * (1994) Elvira: Songs from the Archives 1979–83
 * (1994) Sign of the Times
 * (1993) Tough and Sweet
 * (1992) Burning Head
 * (1991) Wild Tiger Love
 * (1991) Peel Sessions
 * (1990) Romance – Romance
 * (1988) Everybody's Naked
 * (1987) Stumbling on to Paradise
 * (1985) Rough
 * (1984) Legless In Manila
 * (1983) Beautiful Extremes et cetera
 * (1982) Politicz
 * (1981) Live in Berlin
 * (1981) Pointing the Finger
 * (1981) The Dandelion Years
 * (1980) Sanity Stomp (with Robert Wyatt)
 * (1980) Bursting Bubbles (Virgin Records)
 * (1979) Millionaires and Teddy Bears (Virgin Records)
 * (1978) Dynamite Daze (Virgin Records)
 * (1977) Beautiful Extremes (Virgin Records)
 * (1977) In Living Black and White (Virgin Records)
 * (1976) Heartburn (Virgin Records)
 * (1976) Let's Have A Party (compilation) (Virgin Records)
 * (1975) Matching Head and Feet (Virgin Records)
 * (1974) Blame It on the Night (Virgin Records)
 * (1973) Marjory Razorblade (Virgin Records)
 * (1972) Case History (Dandelion Records)

With Siren

 * Strange Locomotion – 1971
 * Siren – 1969

With Dagmar Krause

 * Babble – Songs for Lonely Lovers – 1979

Singles

 * "Mandy Lee / Bottle Up and Go" – 1969
 * "The Stride / I Wonder Where" – 1969
 * "Ze-Ze-Ze-Ze / And I Wonder" – 1970
 * "Strange Locomotion / I'm All Aching" – 1971
 * "Cheat Me / Flowering Cherry" – 1972
 * "Marlene / Everybody Says" – 1973
 * "Lovesick Fool / Sea of Love" – 1973
 * "Marlene / Sea of Love" – 1973
 * "Marlene / Jackie and Edna" – 1973
 * "I Believe in Love / Queenie Queenie Caroline" – 1974
 * "Rock 'n' Roll Hymn / It's Not Me" – 1975
 * "Saviour / Rock 'n' Roll Hymn" – 1975
 * "Lorna / Let's Have A Party" – 1975
 * "Let's Have A Party / Lorna" – 1975
 * "Saviour / Lonely Lovers" – 1975
 * "Don't Make Waves / Mona Where's My Trousers" – 1976: Virgin: VS 136
 * "Walk on By / Shangri-la" – 1976
 * "Fever / Daddy" – 1976
 * "Marlene / England Is Dying" – 1977
 * "Amsterdam / I Really Love You" – 1978
 * "I'll Go Too / Having A Party" – 1979
 * "So Strange / Father, Dear Father" – 1982, Cherry Red: CHERRY 49
 * "Happy Holiday (Open and Close) / Pretty Park" – 1985

Books

 * The Party Dress - (1990), London: Serpent's Tail
 * Paradise (in German) - (1992), Cadolzburg: Ars-Vivendi-Verl
 * Show Business - (1993), London: Serpent's Tail
 * Tagebuch eines Teddybären (in German) - (1993)
 * Ich, Elvis und Die Anderen (in German) - (2000)
 * That Old Suburban Angst – (2004), Tony Donaghy Publishing, ISBN 0-954900-30-8

DVDs

 * At the Last Wall: Live At The Tempodrom 1982 / The Unknown Famous - July 2008 (Dockland Productions, Meyer Records)  Directed by Diethard Küster.
 * John Peel's Dandelion Records - 2008 (Ozit/Morpheus Records)
 * Live At Rockpalast 1979 (2CDs + DVD) - 2019 (Mig Music/Indigo; also previous editions without video, by other publishers.)

Film

 * The Institution (with Ian Breakwell) – 1978

title: Kevin Coyne


text:
D8

D8, D.VIII, D VIII, D08 or D-8 may refer to:

Entertainment

 * d8 (magazine), a 1990s American magazine on role playing culture
 * D8 (TV channel), a French TV channel
 * Dissipated Eight, a collegiate all-male a cappella group from Middlebury College
 * d8, the eight-sided die used often in table-top role-playing games

Transportation

 * Bavarian D VIII, an 1888 German steam locomotive
 * Caterpillar D8, a track-type tractor
 * D-8 Armored Car, a Soviet vehicle
 * D8 (Aircraft), an American airliner
 * Dewoitine D.8, a French aircraft
 * Dunne D.8, a British Dunne aircraft
 * Fokker D.VIII, a 1918 German parasol-monoplane fighter aircraft
 * HMAS Vendetta (D08), a 1954 Royal Australian Navy Daring class destroyer
 * Pacific D-8, a glider
 * Pfalz D.VIII, a German 1918 fighter aircraft
 * Pro FE Straton D-8, a Czech motorglider
 * ProFe D-8 Moby Dick, a Czech motorglider
 * Spyker D8, a 2009 concept car
 * GE Dash 8 Series, a locomotive series

Other

 * D8 motorway (Czech Republic), a road in the northern Czech Republic
 * D8 road (Croatia), a section of the Adriatic highway
 * Data8, a magnetic tape data storage format pioneered by Exabyte Corporation
 * Digital8, a consumer digital videotape format developed by Sony
 * Developing 8 Countries, a group of eight large, mostly Muslim nations
 * District 8 (disambiguation)
 * Dublin 8, a Dublin, Ireland postal district
 * IATA code for Norwegian Air International
 * ATC code D08, Antiseptics and Disinfectants, a subgroup of the Anatomical Therapeutic Chemical Classification System
 * d8 may refer to the d electron count of a transition metal complex
 * D8 refers to the dihedral group of eight elements
 * Delta-8-THC, a psychoactive cannabinoid
 * Williams County School District 8

title: D8