text:
Talk:Sydney Grammar School

2004
"two-thirds of the incoming Year 7 at College St. are from the two Preparatory Schools"

I was just wondering. If the Prep schools are about 140 boys per year, and main school is 200 boys per year, wouldn't that make the Prep schools be providing about HALF of the year 7 intake? Just curious. I realise it could be that the Prep schools have more boys at Grade 6. Yes come to think of it that seems highly likely: how very unusual for a primary school to be top-heavy. (attard); as —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.253.42.5 (talk • contribs) 16:56, 9 December 2004.

Correct
there are actually 180-190 boys per year in College Street. I'm a student there! Although there 140 boys in year six inluding both prep schools, about 10-15 of these would leave Grammar. The reason why there are more students in year 5 & 6 is because ten pupils enter in year 5 by acheiving good results in the entrance exam  Da Gizza  Chat (c) 09:54, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Its actually about 44 who enter in year 5, and class sizes in year six are between 21 and 25

NB: Class numbers at Edgecliff: T-1 1-1 2-1 3-2 4-2 5-3 6-3

 * I know you are not probably not going to return to this discussion but for those who will read sometime in the future need to be taught the real facts. In the St. Ives Prep school, only ten or so people enter. It appears that you were referring to Edgecliff, where I have less knowledge about and I trust that you are correct. GizzaChat  © 09:16, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

In fact the Sydney Grammar School Prep Schools COMBINED have approximately 144 students per grade. Each one has 3 6th grade classes of about 24 students. Methalos (talk) 09:11, 4 May 2009 (UTC)Methalos

Neutrality of the "Evaluation" section
I thought it was fairly obvious that the section wasn't neutral, but I'll explain:

 * "Such achievement ranks Sydney Grammar as one of the best secondary schools on the continent." - Which ranking of schools would this be referring to? Wikipedia is not the place to evaluate how good a school is.
 * "Sydney Grammar is the most academically proficient private school in NSW" - reference? I would've thought that would be James Ruse...

Those are the only two things I object to. So either the section needs a npov warning, or those two parts removed/edited. If you can provide a reference for the second part, then that's fine. I'm removing both, for now. - James Foster 08:22, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

James Ruse is a selective public school. I think the comment that SGS is one of the better schools in Australia is a fair comment although you are right to correct the wording. You can only really rank schools based on external assessment marks and this is no indication of actual academic proficiency. Razol2 13:31, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

its a very simple issue...leaving certificate results tell us this. (thats the HSC in New South Wales) SGS is also the only academically selective (as in you have to pass a test to get in) private boys school in NSW...and possibly Australia (though i need to research this).mpearse 23:41, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Re:Neutrality of the "Evaluation" section
Firstly, Sydney Grammar School is rated the top ranking boys private school, and the second top ranking private school in Sydney by the SMH HSC 'rank' each year, year in year out. James Ruse is NOT a private school, it is public, but selective, likes Sydney Boys High. It isnt verifiable that it is the best school academically on the continent of Australia, there is no Australia-wide rank, for all we know, Launceston High, or Wagga Wagga Boys High School could be the best, but they arnt. This is Sydney, the most competitive city academically, with the most private schools, the best schools, and the smartest students. If Grammar does well here, it does well across the country.

In Summary: SGS IS the most academically proficient private school in NSW according to the SMH HSC ranking published yearly, and since JRHS isnt a private school your example is void

SGS is among the best secondary schools on the continent because it does so well in Sydney, it must do so well nationally. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Monkeytrumpets (talk • contribs) 13:20, 26 September 2005.

Bold text REPLY I will identify who I am before I make any comments. Firstly, I have just moved to NSW after teaching overseas for 5 and a half years, including teaching in an IB world school. And I am an Australian teacher who has taught in Australia for approximately two and a half years. And all have been excellent schools!

I must question where is the basis for stating that Sydney has the ¨smartest students¨. Have you done an IQ test and compared the average IQ of Sydney students to the average IQ of students in every other capital city across the country? And why limit it to capital cities. Why not consider regional centres as well. Generalisations are wonderful, but when you are talking about things like that - I really think that you should be referring to verifiable facts!

I have a number of further questions to ask of the original contributor. 1. "Sydney has the smartest students"? Is there a national education system that I was unaware of? lol. I know that I have been away for awhile - but how can you make sweeping, generalizing statements like this?

I must apologize, but it is extremely difficult to judge whether or not the results in Sydney Private Schools are better than those say in Melbourne Private Schools or Brisbane Private Schools for that matter. That comment comes across as a rather elitist remark - that really has no basis whatsoever. So if your reference to the smartest students was based on comparing results across the country (assuming that the HSC system was a national system) then it would have validity. However, it was not based on that. Could you please tell me how you reached that conclusion. Did you do a nationwide study or has one been conducted that I am not aware of? By the way, I am not agreeing or disagreeing with the statement, just that it is one without basis. Sweeping statements are wonderful to make, but verifiable data is what really counts!

2. "Sydney has the best schools". I am not saying that they do or don't. However, what makes an exceptional school? It is obvious that the author above is talking about the best overall average HSC results in the Sydney area. That is wonderful.

Firstly, I am imagining that Sydney Grammar is a selective school. How can you possibly compare a selective school where academic merit is a very important part of the selection process to a non-selective school. I am sure that they get the pick of the best and brightest minds in Sydney. I sure hope that they get the best HSC results. It would not make sense if they didn't! Yes, I am aware that people are admitted for other reasons (I am guessing) like exceptional musical talent or exceptional sporting prowess etc. But on the whole, I am sure that academic talent is one of the key factors why most students are accepted. Please tell me if I am wrong.

Anyways, let me move on from discussing particular schools. That is besides the point as far as I am concerned.

Obviously - the original comments were made on the assumption that HSC results can tell you how good a school is! I believe that an excellent school has a lot more to do with producing wonderful, honest, caring individuals who are going to make a difference to the world (and that academics is not the only thing - although an important part). I quite frankly would rather employ a student graduating from University whose grades were not quite as good, but was obviously intelligent - and was a well-rounded individual!

Now this comment is slightly off-topic, but I am not going to apologize for it. It relates to education and that is the most important thing. Firstly, I believe that the Australian Education system needs to be nationalised. It is about time! So that there is greater consistency in education standards throughout the country.

Whether or not it is the HSC system, the VCE system or whatever the system. I personally would state (by the way - I studied in Queensland - and would have to say that I believe that the HSC system is better - but that is just a personal opinion)that the International Bacclaureate Program is the way of the future. This is not a biased perspective, as I have no reason whatsoever to promote the IB Program - have just seen education in many different systems including the public, private and international education systems in a number of countries - and believe that the IB Program is the best one around for 2 important reasons (there are others, but these are the most important ones):- 1. The IB Program is aimed at creating a well-rounded individual, not just an academically strong individual. Community Service is an important part of the IB Diploma. There is a lot more to be said, but I will leave it there.

2. The IB Program is a truly international program and provides a huge range of subject offerings. It also would allow for students to graduate from Australian High Schools with a more global perspective. I believe that this is extremely important if Australia is to continue its strong growth as a nation. We can no longer be as inward-looking as we are in many ways. I have just come back from overseas - am an Australian - and have experienced it first-hand applying for jobs in this country. I have been quite frankly shocked at the close-minded view of many employers in Sydney. And who you know is just as important as what you know many times. I am not just talking about Sydney and this is actually referring to a career outside of education. I would suggest that the majority of them were educated in Australia (however, that is just a well-educated guess). The interviewers who were from overseas were much more open-minded.

And finally, the IB Program would allow students to study in the country of their choice without any difficulties regarding conversions of grades etc. They could choose to study at Yale, Harvard, Oxford, Timbuktu, wherever. And the majority of quality universities in the world understand what a particular IB grade means. So that means that you no longer have to limit yourself to undergraduate study in Australia. Why not study overseas / if that interests you - and you/your parents have the funds (unforunately - study in many parts of the world is prohibitively expensive). The best University in Peru costs $11,000 U.S.D. per year. And Peru is a third world country. That is a scary though.

That is all. Hope that has been food for thought. Sorry for digressing from the Sydney Grammar School line of thought - but I wanted to address several of the statements made - and wanted to add some related ideas while I was taking the time to make this post. Cheers to making the Australian Education system even better!!!! By the way, I think that we should be proud of the Australian Education System, it is a strong one. However, there is still room for a great deal of improvement!!!! Cheers. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.10.180.204 (talk • contribs) 10:23, 18 February 2006.

Edited the "Today" section because of misinformation and concerns about neutrality. SGS isn't second to JRAHS in HSC performance, but roughly in the top 5 or 10 schools in the state. JRAHS is clearly number 1.Recurring dreams 02:27, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

NPOV
Adding to my previous comment, while I dont doubt some of the article was a tad biased, SGS is one of the best private schools. Furthermore the day's minor war over neutrality is a little petty, especially the NPOV notice. It's just an article on a school, not Palestinian terrorism. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Monkeytrumpets ([[User talk:Monkeytrumpets
 * Monkeytrumpets
 * talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Monkeytrumpets
 * contribs]]) 13:30, 26 September 2005.

 * I didn't really think of it as a "war over neutrality". I put the NPOV notice there initially because I wanted to bring the section to someone's attention, but didn't feel like changing it at the time. The other stuff you stated above is fine, as long as you realise some of it was just opinion. If it's ranked #1 by SMH, then just say that, rather than saying it is "the best school". Although it being the best school may actually be a fact, you still shouldn't state it in a way where it looks like opinion. State who regards it as the "best school", in this case, saying SMH does would be fine. (and a reference for this sort of claim would be good, too) - James Foster 08:30, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes actually one must admit that it's too vague to say it's the "best school". Best in what way? You're quite right.  Let's not say that it is the "best school".  But SGS is objectively known to be the top in academic performance: I don't think there's really any controversy there. The controversy would be in relation to other matters. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Attard (talk • contribs) 21:22, 2 October 2005.

Crest + Photos
Can someone get a good copy of the school crest, and some good photos of the school and put them up, that'd make the article look a lot better, especially with a crest in the info box. Thanks —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Monkeytrumpets ([[User talk:Monkeytrumpets
 * Monkeytrumpets
 * talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Monkeytrumpets
 * contribs]]) 11:34, 28 September 2005.

I downloaded a newsletter from the Grammar Website and took a printscreen of the logo. It's now up and running. I'm not too experienced with all the formatting but it seems to look fine the way I've done it anyway. Enjoy. mdmanser 23:43, 21 October 2005 (AEST)

If someone could get some photos from the recent book, "Inside Sydney Grammar School", onto the website, that would be really good. andrew rickert 08:12, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Levels of Importance
Just a little note to everyone to suggest that the SGS page not become cluttered with less important information. The University Chancellors, for example. In Australia, Chancellor is an essentially ceremonial role. Vice-Chancellor is the person actually in charge of the University. Also, are we certain that all the people in the 'Notable Alumni' section are actually significant and important people? I will assume that they are, but ask people to consider the issue.(attard)23:04, 1 January 2006
 * The list of extra-curricular clubs is also becoming a spot for every man and his dog to add a name. Someone should go through and keep only the most notable clubs (eg. historical Cadets programs, strong chess team). Harro5 21:24, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Why? Wikipedia has enough space to include as much detail as possible. As long as the clubs are organised, they should all be included in the list. Aussie-boy
 * That's not necessarily correct. All information on Wikipedia needs to be verifiable. So the criterion for inclusion is whether there is an independent source that we can point to that says that these clubs exist. enochlau (talk) 08:34, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes it is - if u go through the list of clubs i can tell u the name of a person in each.

All of the clubs are verifiable. And while I'm here, can I just point out to 'attard' that university hierarchies are a fair bit more complicated than they seem to think.Snell 12:46, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Merging J. T. Vallance article here
To read or take part in this discussion, please see the comments here. Harro5 06:59, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
 * This discussion has now ended with a resulting redirection of the page to SGS and a paragraph on Vallance added to this page. Harro5 21:25, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Headmasters
Well seeing as though a new "Headmasters" section has been added of late, I'd imagine it'd be appropriate to start a compilation of every headmaster that has ever been at Grammar. I found an article on Albert Bythesea Weigall, and if my memory is correct, he was the second headmaster ever at Grammar, after W. J. Stevens. If anyone knows any more, put it in here. http://gutenberg.net.au/dictbiog/0-dict-biogWe-Wy.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mdmanser (talk • contribs) 12:47, 24 October 2005.

Merging Headmasters Articles with SGS article was not advisable
Really sorry to be making this comment after discussion has ended, but I'd just like to say that I disapprove of the merging of the Headmasters' articles with the SGS page. I think some of the Headmasters are definitely important enough to warrant their own articles. But they should not be on the main SGS page because a visitor to the SGS page may very well not be interested in all this arcane biographical information about the headmasters. After all, they visited the page for the purpose of learning about the school, not the life and times of the headmaster. (attard - 2 January 2006)

Evaluation section
This section was extremely POV. I've bolded the POV stuff below, and italicised stuff with no references to verify claims (including unnamed people).

 * Sydney Grammar is the most academically proficient private school in NSW, let alone of the GPS schools, as measured by consistent performance in the Higher School Certificate.

 * Supporters of the school would suggest that it provides a truly intellectual grounding. Detractors of the school however, would argue that it provides a "spoon-fed" education without true independence of thought, and that its excellent examination results are merely a reflection of the extraordinary quality of the intake. Supporters would respond that this issue is lessening with time under the current Headmaster, J.T. Vallance. Dr. Vallance claims that the aim of the School is not exclusively to achieve high academic results in the HSC, but to prepare students for life by giving them a "liberal, humane, pre-vocational education", and that the diversity of the School's music, sport and extra-curricular programme is a testament to this philosophy.

 * Irrespective of which camp is correct, there can be little doubt that Sydney Grammar is both the most extreme and the most exceptional example of its type of school in Australia.

This section should not be re-added without references, a re-write and prior discussion on the talk page. Harro5 23:29, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

 * Grammar actually is the most academically proficient private school in NSW, let alone of the GPS schools and that is measured by consistent performance in the HSC. So I think that can be legitimately mentioned. The idea of an evaluation is unnecessary though. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 60.225.76.92 (talk • contribs) 03:56, 2 January 2006.
 * Fair enough. If someone can find a rankings list like like Victorian one add it, but otherwise this is a good start. The rest should be left on the scrap heap for the moment. Harro5 07:29, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The recent HSC results may be used. DaGizza 13:44, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
 * http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/12/16/1134703611489.html  Sydney Grammar came 7th in the state, the best performing private school. monkeytrumpets 12:08, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

High Court Judges
This arose out of a discussion at Talk:Fort_Street_High_School. The claim that there have been 12 high court judges attend seems to be unfounded. See the list at User:Enochlau/High Court Judges. There are 7 confirmed, with 4 with unknown high schools, but since Crennan is female, that leaves at most 10 Grammarians as high court judges. Any comments? enochlau (talk) 14:01, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

 * All I know is that 3 of the current High Court Judges are from Sydney Grammar.  D a  Gizza  Chat  04:21, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

 * That's not possible either. Gummow is from Grammar, and the others I have schools for except for Heydon and Crennan, but Crennan is female, so that's at most 2? enochlau (talk) 04:30, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

The 12 figure came from Crikey.com's website I believe... 60.225.76.92 12:43, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Could someone please tell me how this is relevant? I fail to see the relevance of this particular point. By the way, High Court Judges are appointed by the government and are not always appointed because they are the best judges out there!!! Some may be, but politics and the old boys network plays a big part!!!! It is important that we are realistic about these things!!! I couldn't really care whether all of the High Court Judges were educated at Sydney Grammar or Nirvana State High School. It really has nothing to do with it.

I didn't go to Sydney Grammar High School. However, I assure you that life experience and what you put into your education plays just as vital a role as where you went to school!!! And your upbringing!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.10.180.204 (talk • contribs) 10:29, 18 February 2006.

 * It's definitely relevant - if Sydney Grammar does in fact have the highest number of high court judges attend, then that's noteworthy and should be mentioned in the article. Most Wikipedia articles on schools contain information on noteable graduates, and high court judges are definitely noteable. Also, the effort I took in counting the number of judges per school is not in an effort to glorify old-boys networks - it was to correct a glaring error, and on Wikipedia, we strive to provide the most accurate information possible. enochlau (talk) 10:54, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

 * I have no statistics on whether or not the greatest number of Australiah High Court Judges studied at Sydney Grammar. I will take your word for it - but that was not the point of my comment. I will accept those statistics.  My point is the following.  Schools in Australia and indeed around the world get extremely carried away when they refer to their most notable graduates!!  I definitely believe that the school plays an important role, but nearly as important a role as the individual himself, his family upbringing, connections (yes - it does work like that in Australia to a large extent and it is extremely obvious) and drive.  Whether or not you got the highest HSC result in a particular year cannot be correlated to your success in life.  What about the self-made men!!!!

 * And it all depends on what "success" means for you!!! Does money and an important position in society mean that you have truly been successful? Sadly, it appears that mainstream society believes that is so.  But to be honest, I really couldn't care how much money a person makes or how powerful or important they are, it is their contribution to society that counts.  That is the most important thing!!!!  I can assure you that your average sales person makes a lot more money than a teacher does.  Does this mean that the sales person is more successful than the teacher.  Mainstream society would suggest that it does mean exactly that.  However, in the end - it all depends on your definition of "success".  In the end, happiness and making a difference in the world mean a lot more  (personal opinion) than whether or not you make more money or not.  And you can't take your money to the grave with you anyway!!!  If you are a student at Sydney Grammar that is making these comments about the judges (which I suspect you are) - take a brief moment to think about all of this!!!  Because I assure you that in the end - it would be more worth your while to analyse the meaning of life, universe and everything as opposed to meaningless statistics about the number of judges that attended Sydney Grammar.

 * Back to the judges for the moment. You refer to Crikey.com as your official source.  Is it a reliable source?  Is this person an expert in the area or someone who thinks that they know what they are talking about?  I hope that you have spent time on this at school - ie. just because it is on the web - doesn't mean that it is necessarily a reliable source.  I could make up a website tomorrow with the number of High Court Judges that went to Nimbin State High School - and someone may be quoting my website tomorrow as their source!  Just trying to get you to think a little bit about it.  I am afraid that schools these days are all too focussed on whether or not students get a good HSC score - as opposed to teaching them to think for themselves.  Not criticising you - just making a point.  After all - that is what education is supposed to be about.  Real thinking and analysing anything and everything that is put out there as "knowledge".  I will leave it there. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.10.211.130 (talk • contribs) 08:51, 20 February 2006.

 * I don't see how your long diatribe has anything to do with the content of the encyclopedia article. Remember that even talk pages are not soapboxes. If you wish to remove the section on notable alumni or the statistics on the number of high court judges, I'm sorry that's just not going to happen. Wikipedia is not here to pass judgement on the life, universe and everything; we are here to present facts, and this is a salient fact to present.
 * Crikey.com was not my resource. In fact, it was the erroneous resource which I seeked to correct. I spent a few hours counting high court judges from a reputable source (Butterworth's legal dictionary) and I've tabulated it here: User:Enochlau/High Court Judges.
 * Oh, and another thing, I don't go to high school anymore, and I didn't go to Sydney Grammar when I was in high school. enochlau (talk) 09:26, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Too scary to think eh!!! Couldn't handle what I had to say - seems that it struck a raw nerve. A dangerous thing isn't it - thinking. You should try it sometime. Long diatribe - your opinion (not a fact) - but thanks anyway for your considered opinion.

Number of High Court Judges that graduated from Sydney Grammar School is in your opinion "a salient fact". That my dear friend, is merely your opinion. And the fact that you spend a number of hours counting the number of High Court Judges would tend to indicate that you need to take up a new hobby. Judge-counting is not something that counts as a hobby - at least not in my experience. And you tell me that you didn't go to Sydney Grammar. If not, you are either a staff member from there or have a vested interest. Otherwise, why would you bother?

By the way, my dear friend, if a student of mine ever used Wikipedia as a resource in an assignment, they would never be taken seriously. Nor would they be taken seriously in any reputable University in the Country. It is merely a "encyclopedia of facts" stated by people who often have a vested interest in the "facts" that they are stating. If noone else is particularly interested - then that particular point stands as a "fact". I don't remember that being an encylopedia - at least not according to the current definition of the word, unless the definition of the word has changed recently. It can be interesting at times, but there are still a lot of viewpoints expressed and it is most definitely not an encyclopedia by definition.

Are there editors out there screening content and frantically checking whether you counted the number of judges correctly? Somehow I doubt it. You refer to your comments as an encyclopedia article. Now that is a scary thought. So every man and his dog in the street can write an article for this "encyclopedia" on whatever topic they felt like - regardless of whether or not they are considered to be an expert!!! You are an absolute genius. Go ahead, continue writing your "factual" articles for the "encyclopedia". But I wouldn't put it in your resume that you wrote an article for an encyclopedia. Because you will not be taken seriously!! That is all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.10.216.157 (talk • contribs) 06:46, 21 February 2006.

 * WP:NOT a soapbox. enochlau (talk) 09:18, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, it is for judge counters!!!! Keep up your expert opinions!!!!! Did you do a PhD in Education or was it Judge Counting. Unless you are a qualified expert, then you should not be making ¨salient facts¨ - for all the world to see in an ENCYCLOPEDIA!!! I would suggest that you are not, then maybe just a hobby as a judge counter would be better. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 61.68.29.108 (talk • contribs) 08:48, 22 February 2006.

How could the number of high court judges graduated from Sydney Grammar not be a 'salient fact'? Is being in that position a matter of opinion? Stop digging, my friend. Snell 12:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Author
I wouldnt mind knowing who writes the page about Grammar. Are you a student or a teacher? I know you're not some random because there's pictures from within the school in the entry. BTW I'm a student there in Yr10 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 60.225.88.25 (talk • contribs) 08:08, 14 February 2006.

 * Wikipedia is a collaborative effort, with hundreds of contributors. As for this article, it seems User:Monkeytrumpets took the photo, and it's also on this site according to the image description page. Harr o 5 08:25, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Infobox
Might I suggest using the more standard Template:Infobox Aust school box for this article? Harr o 5 20:52, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Fine by me.  G i zza Chat  © 09:08, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

 * I disagree. The current secondary school infobox is used standardly across GPS, CAS and ISA schools and therefore should stay. It is the most comprehensive infobox there is as per below, while the Aust school infobox is quite limited in its capacities and not very streamlined. Cheers, Jpeob 00:37, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Extra curricular list?
Would it be better to list the activities? That way it will look neater and there is more space to add further activities.  G i zza Chat  <b style="color:orange;">©</b> 11:12, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree. But what format would we use? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Monkeytrumpets (talk • contribs) 07:32, 10 March 2006.

harro5 has deleted the list and replaced it with a rather frugal summary. I do't think this is necessary, as Wikipedia isn't limited by the confines of a volume. Why not list the activities and clubs? Snell 12:39, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Failed GA
I agree it's one of the better school articles in wikipedia but still needs work. Article needs more refrences and the 3 extrenal links refrences scattered though out thw need to be fixed to footnote form per WP:CITE. I'm sure the article can be expanded a little more also, like the History section stops in the 1860s. Also the lists need to be converted to prose style. Thanks --Jaranda wat's sup 17:43, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Why do the lists need to be converted to prose? That just makes them harder to read. Snell 12:40, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Template:Infobox Aust school private
This infobox is the most suitable for the school. I'll do it myself when I have time but anyone bold enough to do it sooner than me is of course allowed to. <b style="color:teal;">Gizza</b><sup style="color:teal;">Chat  <b style="color:teal;">©</b> 10:13, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I disagree with the proposed use of the Infobox Aust school private on Sydney Grammar School and, indeed, elsewhere. The Secondary school infobox is used standardly across the board for GPS, CAS and ISA schools as the best infobox for the respective - and indeed, all - schools. Purely because the Aust school private infobox is there does not mean that it is the best one to use for private schools: the current "Affiliations" line is better than "denomination"; "slogan" is very crass; "key people" rendered inspecific when compared to the wide options in the secondary school infobox such as "Headmaster", "Principal" and "rector"; "num_employ" is the same as "faculty" in the SSI; "revenue" is irrelevant; "products" crass and unspecific yet again (of course the products are students!); while all the rest of the lines are in the Secondary school infobox.

Cheers, Jpeob 00:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

School Feature articles
These four schools are FAs. They are good starting points for the Grammar article.
 * Caulfield Grammar School (Australian)
 * Hopkins School
 * Plano Senior High School
 * Stuyvesant High School

<b style="color:teal;">Gizza</b><sup style="color:teal;">Chat  <b style="color:teal;">©</b> 23:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Fees
This article states that At $20,826 per annum (for Forms I - VI, non-boarding ), the tuition fees are the highest of any secondary day school in the country, however, Haileybury, Melbourne states that it has tuition fees ranging between $16,000 and $21,000 (Prep to Year 12) per year for day students.. are there sources to back up the claim that SGS has the highest annual non-boarding student fees in Australia?Loopla 06:10, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

not unless you went through every secondary school... however it has been established that Sydney is the most expensive city to live in, so presumably school fees would also be highest there. Bearing that in mind, I went on a few school sites to find fees (and this is for 6 yrs of tuition, non boarding)

Cranbrook: $121230 Reddam: $101620 Kings: $117853 Shore: $108210 Riverview: $94455 Newington: $116952 Trinity: $112570 Kincoppal: $91478 PLC Pymble: $103950 PLC Croydon: $108230 MLC Melbourne: $101825

SGS: $124956

Also, there is the fact that SGS includes camps, exursions, extra curricular activities (besides private music lessons) in the fees, while some schools charge extra. However, based purely on the stated fees, its clear that Grammar is the most expensive so far.

I couldnt find Scots, Kambala, Abottsleigh, Knox, Ascham, SCEGGS, but once these are established I think it will be safe to conclude that SGS is the dearest

That still doesn't deter the fact that there is at least one other school in the country claiming to have higher tuition fees. I strongly suggest that the section is re-worded to: "At $20,826 per annum (for Forms I - VI, non-boarding ), the tuition fees are the highest of any secondary day school in Sydney" untill further evidence is provided to suggest otherwise. Jason McConnell-Leech 05:10, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

 * One of the highest can be used until a reliable reference is found. <b style="color:teal;">Gizza</b><sup style="color:teal;">Chat  <b style="color:teal;">©</b> 06:54, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

 * According to this article by the SMH, "Annual fees for senior students this year (2007) will be as high as $21,117 at Cranbrook, $20,967 at Kambala, $20,913 at King's and $20,826 at Sydney Grammar". Therefore, One of the highest, rather than the highest should definately be used in this article. Loopla 04:11, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Except..... those schools charge different fees for each year level, and overall grammar is still the most expensive —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.172.146.245 (talk) 06:21, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Sydney Church of England Grammar School
Sydney Grammar School should not be confused with Sydney Church of England Grammar School. I really do not see the point of this statement in the lead. I don't think the two are commonly mixed up, and no other schools including the Sydney Church of England Grammar School have such a qualifying statement in their lead. Will remove. Recurring dreams 08:04, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

 * I agree and thank you for removing the statement. Adding the statement may ironically confuse the reader even more! Have a nice day. <b style="color:teal;">Gizza</b><sup style="color:teal;">Chat  <b style="color:teal;">©</b> 10:58, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

WP Schools Assessment
(Top/Start) I have given this article a rating of Top Importance and start class. It is nearly a B-class, it just needs some tidying up, and more references. Top importance given the extensive alumni, the history of the school, and its place in Australian education. Twenty Years 05:00, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Not Selective School
As per Selective school (New South Wales), even though SGS may select students based on academic ability, it is not a selective school, which in NSW is restricted to government schools to which entry is achieved via the selective schools test. 124.184.116.235 (talk) 09:51, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The school requires students to gain over a certain mark in an entrance exam before they are considered for admission (enrolment details are here). I shall change it to Selective school rather than Selective school (New South Wales) if it helps. The New South Wales article is clearly not broad enough (or incorrectly titled) and only covers government selective schools, when there is clearly atleast one independent selective school in the state. Loopla (talk) 10:10, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Auditorium
In 2007, the headmaster announced the construction of a new auditorium at the College Street Campus. Perhaps this should be given a mention?Thevas (talk) 10:18, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Palladium
I'm not sure about the (old) Palladium building being a postal sorting office - it may have been, but it used to be a roller skating rink (whence the name), with the floorboards being laid such that their long edge was always in the direction one traversed the room (i.e., they formed an ellipse). When the classrooms were put in this led to some of the classrooms having floorboards that were not in line with the classroom walls. This building was replaced in the mid-seventies by the New Palladium building, with the gym on the top floor (which used to get unbearably hot, even in winter) and the library on the ground floor (which flooded the first time there was major rain, due to the courtyard outside having inadequate drainage). As I recall, there was also a brothel visible from the windows of some of the classrooms in the new Palladium, on Yurong St..... we weren't allowed to go out there, or even to Beppi's :-( Incywebb (talk) 07:44, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Subjects Offered
Okay the article states that we offer Standard English, when we do no such thing. Some fob included Standard English in the list of subjects offered and I am removing it now.....no-one was offered to do anything other than English Advanced for this year, and that's how it has worked for many years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.89.151 (talk) 10:00, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I am an old boy of the school, and 20 people took Standard English in my year.--60.240.34.106 (talk) 04:33, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Edit request from Sydgramhelpdesk, 11 June 2010
This page has been vandalised. Please change the test in Paragraph two from liberal, inhumane, pre-vocational pedagagy to liberal, humane, pre-vocational education. Many Thanks Sydney Grammar School IT department

See Sydney Grammars Web Page, Headmasters Address at http://www.sydgram.nsw.edu.au/CollegeSt/home.html

Sydgramhelpdesk (talk) 00:34, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

✅ There was a bit more vandalism than that lurking in the article, so I've reverted back to an earlier version of the article. —C.Fred (talk) 00:40, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Pending changes
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Comments on the suitability of theis page for "Pending changes" would be appreciated.

Please update the Queue page as appropriate.

Note that I am not involved in this project any much more than any other editor, just posting these notes since it is quite a big change, potentially

Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 00:14, 17 June 2010 (UTC).

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'The Sydneian' publications
I think that the article could do a lot better with more pictures and more on the history of Grammar. I don't have the time but would someone that could please add some pictures from some of the publications of 'The Sydneian': http://www.sydgram.nsw.edu.au/currentfamilies/publications/the-sydneian/publications/

There's especially a lot from the centenary publication in 1957 http://www.sydgram.nsw.edu.au/files/thesydneian/1950-1959/The_Sydneian_CENTENARY_1957.pdf

Pyrimethamine
A group of SGS students are getting media attention for their preparation of the medication pyrimethamine, as described in the following article:  Not sure whether it is worth including in some way, but here it is if anyone wants to make use of it. EdChem (talk) 02:31, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

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Tone of the Alumni/Co-curricular section

 * 'Edit war' with TobeFree has been resolved . There was an edit war because I initially misunderstood how to comment and talk with others (first time editing), but that has since been resolved as you can see by lots of allowed edits and my talk with ToBeFree.
 * Tone : It is not 'promotional' I think (like PMs, Rhodes Scholars, Music etc.), it is just stating facts which happen to accurately reflect the quality of the school (any 'promotion' one may perceive incidental to that is appropriate, it is still being objective and stating the truth). I have spent hours upon hours fastidiously checking these facts. Please note however, if one believes this is 'promotional', many many other school pages would be 'very promotional' as one could term it like Eton College and Scotch College, i.e. for Eton College, Eton has educated 19 British prime ministers and generations of the aristocracy and has been referred to as the chief nurse of England's statesmen.[4]' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eton_College . Before one edits the tone here, please consider the viability of this applying to other school pages and the approach of schools or institutions discussing their alumni generally.

Academic Boosterism violates NPOV
Hello. I know that many of you editors are in some way related to this school, perhaps as current or former students, and want to tell everyone how great this school is. Wikipedia is not the place to do that. One of the fundamental principles of Wikipedia is to write with a Neutral Point of View (see WP:NPOV) and it doesn't do this school and favours when this page sounds like a giant advertisement. Please also avoid academic boosterism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Avoid_academic_boosterism).

As such, headings such as "Australia's Top Music School" are completely inappropriate. Please don't do this. Harry585 (talk) 12:46, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Also heaps of primary sources that don't directly verify source Bumbubookworm (talk) 18:18, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Sydney Grammar School


text:
Talk:Jah Shaka

Untitled
probably should be a disambig page popinting to new pages for the artist and the software. Htaccess 09:38, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I set up a new disambiguation page instead. Hope that is OK. John Eden 16:26, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Article problems
I added an infobox to the material and photo that were there. The article appears: Don't shoot this poor messenger! Just doing the grunt work. --leahtwosaints (talk) 13:01, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) to have POV problems and is not referenced.
 * 2) I know little about Jamaican culture, and found that "Sound Systems" in the sense that Jah Shaka is being discussed as being, are not what most non-Jamaican or Rastafarian people would assume. I placed a link to the comment there to hopefully ensure that someone at some point will see this and expound upon it.
 * 3) I removed what was blatant POV IMHO, and hopefully, with referencing, someone with time and interest can find out his birthdate, place of birth, etc.

May 28 edits
I see a bunch more possibly non-NPOV original research added today diff however none of it is, at least to my personal knowledge, inaccurate and it includes a couple of facts. I'm going to leave it in with perhaps a little clean up. Wwwhatsup (talk) 04:51, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

" Here's my rewrite. I did take out a little of the testimonial style phrasing. Wwwhatsup (talk) 07:18, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

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date of birth
Is there any reliable source for his date of birth? I can't find it. 07:43, 15 April 2023 (UTC) Saschaporsche (talk) 07:43, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

 * Me neither. I have therefore removed the date of birth as per WP:BLP and WP:V violations. - Derek R Bullamore (talk)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Jah Shaka


text:
Talk:Kerry Wendell Thornley

Activity
Wow, this page has seen a lot of work since last i checked it. cool to see some interest. anybody wanna talk shop on a Greg Hill entry? from what i understand, gorightly's book is about the only dependable source of info. who's read it? Is there enough to paraphrase?

popefauve 10:37, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I see a big hole in this article, between the 60s/Kennedy debacle and his death. Does anybody have any background on his general activities (writing and whatnot) during the 70s and 80s?

popefauve 14:24, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I recently posted a huge collection of his Decadent Worker series on ReHistory.com. See the External Links section.

stbob 22:02, 6 Feb 2005

I'm weirder than the next guy, but this sentence still makes no sense no matter how many attempts I make to parse it:

Incidentally, it was also at this time that he and Greg Hill—a bowling alley in their hometown of Whittier, California (a hometown shared by Richard Nixon). Brodo 19:44, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In the mid-nineties during one of his more gregarious periods, Thornley founded a pranking/media manipulation group in the Little Five Points district of Atlanta based around the concept of the Clown as sacred to society. As the pranks became more successful Thornley returned to his paranoid baseline and dissavowed any connection to the group.

Anonymous eyewitness

The narrative style of this article is shocking: what tense is the history supposed to be in? Why is Oswald referred to at one point as "Lee"? What principles were applied to determine which words are links? "Events, personages and phenomena"???? And where it refers to Thornley's "truthful denial" of any contact with Oswald since '59, "truthful" should really be dropped.

Anonymous Iwitness

I'm taking this line out of the final section. It's not that the fact itself doesnt belong, i just cant figure out how to make it fit right at the moment. popefauvexxiii 17:11, 26 June 2006 (UTC) ", but spending most of the remainder of his life in the 'Little Five Points' neighborhood of Atlanta, Georgia"

Independent verification
Much of this looks to need independent verification. To me it reads like a reinvention of the past that someone who has created their own religion might write about themselves - but are there any facts there ?

The reference to his 1965 book "Oswald" takes us to a general Oswald page - did the book actually exist ?

-- Beardo 04:05, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

yup. Oswald, ASIN: B0007DYIU8 popefauvexxiii 05:41, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

 * Do some web searches. Someone is selling the book on amazon.com for $95.  His books and the creation of Discordianism, his Marine service, the Warren Commission testimony, accusations by Jim Garrison that he was involved in the JFK assassination and coverup, are all verifiable.

 * It is also verifiable that he made the claims of having participated in MK-ULTRA, dicussed assassinating JFK with E. Howard Hunt, and that he was a Vril. IOW, the article appears accurate.
 * Naysayer 08:13, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm really bad with wikicode, but I think this article need the "this article may contain original research" sign, In the opening sentence, when it describes the movements with which he has identified, there are no citations for any of them, the same happens later when the article mentions his millitary life and his relationship with Greg Hill, all this needs verification, same with the sentence "While aboard a troopship returning to the United States from duty in Japan (some time after the two men parted ways as a result of routine reassignment), Thornley read of Oswald's autumn 1959 defection to the Soviet Union in the US military newspaper Stars and Stripes." there are several more instances throughout the article.--Angry Mushi 05:10, 17 January 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Angry Mushi (talk • contribs)
 * I added an inline citation (p. 109 from the Warren Commission's report) for the last sentence you specified. I'm not sure what you meant about the first sentence, which carries 5 in-line citations from 2 sources. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 15:27, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Seminal
As a matter of fact, linking the word "seminal" to the semen article IS my idea of a joke, and in this pope's opinion, a pretty damn funny one. i dont consider it to be innappropriate, considering that the word seminal is derived from the same root, and the association actually makes the statement MORE factual, as there are relatively few strictly discordian derivative works, subgenius stuff notwithstanding. feel free to de-link the term, I will happily wikify it back as many times as is necessary; however, please refrain from reverting my copyedits in the future. popefauvexxiii 05:37, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

 * You're not specially privileged to have your bad jokes stay undeleted. DenisMoskowitz 20:14, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

But I am specially endowed with a terrifying and monstrous tenacity that strikes without pattern or warning. popefauvexxiii 00:55, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

cat:subgenii
i was not aware that thornley was affiliated with the church of the subgenius... im not saying he wasnt, but is this verifiable? discordianism ≠ subgenius. popefauvexxiii 19:23, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Yep. Kerry had a lot of material in the Stark Fist of Removal, and a picture of him f**king a chair on Ivan Stang's web site. Don't think the penis was real... Icarus 23 06:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

 * The Sub-Genius name he used was Rev. Jesse Sump -- there's an article somewhere where Thornley listed all his pseudonyms. 24.176.10.125 (talk) 01:33, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

 * I found the article and added the list . --Enric Naval (talk) 11:21, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Anti-semitism?
The article makes the following claim: "For a time Thornley wrote a regular column in the zine Factsheet Five, until editor Mike Gunderloy stopped running his column due to Thornley's increasingly anti-semitic sentiments." As far as I can tell, Gunderloy never dropped Thornley's column. Gunderloy's last issue was Issue #44, August 1991, and Thornley's column appears in it. I wonder if someone might have confused Thornley with Garry de Young, whose column Gunderloy did drop after Issue #39 over anti-semitic remarks (directed toward, but not published in, Factsheet Five -- see Gunderloy's "Aeditorial", Issue #40, Feb. 1990). I will modify the statement in question to simply read "For a time, Thornley wrote a regular column in the zine Factsheet Five, until editor Mike Gunderloy stopped publishing the magazine." -- Gyrofrog (talk) 05:47, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Texas
Any particular reason this has been tagged as part of the WikiProject Texas project? The word "Texas" doesn't even appear in the article. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 01:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Probably either because of his involvement in the Warren Commission, or with the Church of the Subgenius, or both. wikipediatrix 02:46, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It was added because of Oswald, a "Bot" add. Now removed.  Jacksinterweb (talk) 16:15, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Activity
I know personally that Kerry lived in Atlanta, GA from 1995 until his death. He told me himself (and his son agreed) that he had had surgery and that had completely changed his paranoid outlook on many things, but I can find no online source to say this. The link to his "Kultcha" wall newspapers specifically states that he was living in Atlanta from 1980 onwards but I find no other verification for specificity. All reports that he died of a heart attack are easily verified but the "illness" mentioned cannot be found. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Smibbo (talk • contribs) 16:41, 28 December 2006 (UTC). sorry forgot to sign Smibbo 16:42, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I noticed that the bit about livingin the little five points was removed. I don't like the fact that it's gone. does anybody know why it disappeared? Im guessing WP:NOR, can anybody make a citation for this fact? —PopeFauveXXIII 05:04, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * oh. i guess i did. heh. —PopeFauveXXIII 05:06, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

the illness is mentioned in Sondra London's obit, and the fact that the memorial was held the next morning suggests this his death was not sudden or surprising, unlike a heart attack out of nowhere. —PopeFauveXXIII 05:17, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

American writer category
Thornley needs to go into one of the American writers categories, but im at a loss for which. im thinking religious and/or political. Anybody got any better ideas? --popefauvexxiii 03:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Moving comment from talk page
I'm moving the following comment from the article to the talk page. Given the length of the comment it is better suited for the text page, and in any case the remainder of the article was hidden as part of the comment. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:44, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * "I'm gonna guess he was born in Whittier, and add that to the persondata template. If I'm wrong, please update the article and template with where he was actually born. Nixon was born and raised in Yorba Linda, CA; he received a B.A. from Whittier College." (added to article by Gregory k, 01:10 UTC, 16 May 2007.)

Military life
Pronoun reference in the following passage is unclear. I do not care enough to hunt down the details, but it does have obvious factual implications. Id est, did Oswald desert while aboard a troopship, or was it Thornley who was aboard a troopship when he read about Oswald?
 * Some time after the two men parted ways as a result of routine reassignment, Thornley read of Oswald's autumn 1959 defection to the Soviet Union in the US military newspaper Stars and Stripes while aboard a troopship returning to the United States from duty in Japan.

Paralipsis (talk) 06:31, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

 * fixed. --PopeFauveXXIII (talk) 02:41, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Not a real person

 * See also: Village pump (miscellaneous)

Kerry Wendell Thornley is a fictional creation of Robert Anton Wilson. There are no RELIABLE sources that he is a real person at all. This is an amusing work of fiction, perhaps a discussion of Kerry Wendell Thornley as a character or pen name of Robert anton Wilson would be a good place to start. If you can find a reliable source that Kerry Wendell Thornley is a real perosn thats fine. I'm begining to doubt if even Robert Anton Wilson is real. Rich.lewis (talk) 17:01, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

 * For what its worth, I knew Kerry Thornley fairly well in the late 1960s, and I can attest that he was a very real person. I corresponded with him extensively, and visited him and his wife at their home in Los Angeles. I also knew others who knew him personally, and still know Dr. Robert Newport, who attended High School with Kerry. Dr. Newport can be contacted at: theholodoc@gmail.com, and can provide more details about Kerry's family and early life than I can. --Ben Best (talk) 14:22, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I think we safely established his personhood; see the archived Village Pump discussion at Village_pump_(miscellaneous)/Archive_10. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:21, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

 * Do you have some reason to believe the Gorightly and Biles books in the bibliography are unreliable? I've never seen any indication that Thornley is fictional. DenisMoskowitz (talk) 22:09, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes I believe both sources are unreliable. The Gorightly book has a forward by Robert Anton Wilson, so it is naturally suspect, since as I assert Kerry Wendell Thornley is a fictional creation of Robert Anton Wilson.  The Biles book is published by Writers Club Press, which appears to me to be a self publishing clearing house.  That is, anyone can pay to have a book published.  I suspect the Biles is a Robert Anton Wilson fan who wrote the biography for his own amusement and for the amusement of other fans.  The fact that some fictional character in a book by Robert Anton Wilson should also be implicated in the Kenedy assassination is EXACTLY why I believe he is fictional.  Its just rediculous.  Rich.lewis (talk) 22:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * well, this is quite a revelation. most astonishing is the implication that Wilson was directly involved in the coverup of the Kennedy assassination, since his fictional character appears as a witness in the court transcripts. --PopeFauveXXIII (talk) 02:33, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't doubt a REAL person with the name Kerry Wendell Thornley appears on the list of witnesses for the Warren Commision. What I doubt is that the unsubstatianted statements on THIS wikipedia page refer to that same person.  I suspect Robert Anton Wilson originally picked the name from the Warren Commision witness list as a name for his character and made the rest up.  Furthermore, NONE of the other facts in this article are substantiated, other than apparntely there WAS a real person named Kerry Wendell Thornley who appeared as a witness to the Warren Commision.  The fact that this same perosn was a childhood friend of Greg Hill, another fictional character, or that he wrtoe the Principia Discordia, are all completely unsubstantiated.  It is the blurring of fact and fiction which is especially disturbing in this article. This article is clearly a hoax, and the fact that Popefauvexxiii insists it is not also distrubing.  Rich.lewis (talk) 22:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * By the same token, do you have a reliable source that he is a fictional creation of Robert Anton Wilson? Thornley the writer, whether real or not, does at least have a history. I've got a stack of old magazines in which he's credited as a writer.  This article is not a hoax, there are indeed works credited to Thornley.  I wouldn't even rule out that he's a Monty Cantsin-type pseudonym, although this is the first time I've seen any suggestion like yours.  Hey, for that matter, I can't even be certain that any of you exist! ;-) -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 03:12, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

There are no reliable sources for this not being a fictional invention by Robert Anton Wilson and a pair of writers friends of him. At the very least, the lead should be reworded to indicate that we are talking about a fictional character. The Warren report means nothing, since there is no link between the name and the article's subject --Enric Naval (talk) 13:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Note: I'm not opposed to keeping this article as a page on its own, as soon as it's stated that this a fictional character / nom-de-plume for Robert_Anton_Wilson. There is no source on the article that indicates otherwise in a reliable way. It Discordians want to make him look like a real person, then bad luck for them, and go do it somewhere else. --Enric Naval (talk) 13:59, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Is there a reliable source that does say he is an invention of Wilson's? -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:37, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
 * P.S. I suggest we maintain the discussion in one place, I didn't know until last night that this is also listed at Village Pump. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:37, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
 * User:Enric Naval suggests we maintain the discussion at Village Pump, so I will continue responding at that location. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:48, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The discussion has been quiet for a while, but just in case anyone still wonders... Here's a YouTube video of Kerry Thornley:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky7O9COM13o&feature=related  24.112.147.72 (talk) 13:50, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

merges from Malaclypse the Younger and Gregory Hill (writer)
Greg Hill is just a nom de plume with no apparent notability or relevance (per WP:FICTION) that is not inherited from the writer using it, so it should be a section into Kerry's article.

About Malaclypse article..... I changed my opinion a bit, because it maybe has enough content to stand on its own, and enough relevance of its own. However, the fictionality should be stated clearly on the lead and its author stablished as Robert_Anton_Wilson, through his nom de plume Kerry. Stablishing on a section deep into the article that it is a spirit that went into Kerry's body is not enough. See Manual_of_Style_(writing_about_fiction) and Guide_to_writing_better_articles --Enric Naval (talk) 14:46, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Thorneley really did know Greg Hill
OK, I must admit now not only are Kerry Wendell Thornley and Greg Hill both real people, but they really did know eachother, and Thornely discusses in minutia the details of how he and Greg Moved from Whittier to Live in New Orleans in Febuary 1961, starting on page 32, here http://www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/garr/grandjury/Thornley/html/Thornley_0016b.htm and here http://www.historymatters.com/archive/jfk/garr/grandjury/Thornley/html/Thornley_0018a.htm, Apparently Thorneley and Hill were roomates in the French quarter while Thornely worked on the Lost Warriors. This is from his deposition to the New Orleans Parish Grand Jury, regarding an investigation of the Kendey assassination. I guess truth really is stranger than fiction. I'm still not convinced that as the Principia claims they went on to write the Principia Discordia itself. But, if so the Principia claims, then so must it be true. Rich.lewis (talk) 22:18, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Please add this update to the Village Pump discussion, as per Enric Naval's earlier request. Thanks. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 22:32, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Ok, so Thornley and Hill ARE real, but the way this article is written really encouirages the misunderstanding that he is some kind of fantasy character. I think at the least it needs a re-write, moving references to discordianism to the part of the article which deals with his later life, AFTER the events of the Warren commision.  I also think the emphasis should be placed on Thornley as a witness before the Warren commission and author of "The Idle Warriors" and other works biographing Oswald.  I think that IS more significant than any work he MAY have done on Discordianism (which frankly I still doubt).  I also think that, after reading the court transcripts, the character of both Oswald and Thornley are compelling.  Just his testimony at the Warren Commission shows Oswald and Thornley both as thoughtful, literary people who were seriously out of place in the disfunctional beauracracy of the USMC.  I really think more emphasis should be placed on this picture, rather than mixing in all this nonsense from the Principia.  Even if the Principia WAS the subject of his life's work, I think it is more important to look at Thornley as a real person than to blur him with statements he MAY have made in a work of fiction.  Rich.lewis (talk) 15:39, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

 * Can you put this also on village pump discussion? . My excuses if you put it already there. Also, if you agree that the village pump discussion can be closed can you state it there so we can come back to talk page? It's just a formality --Enric Naval (talk) 17:41, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

fact tags
The places where the article states "Thornley came to believe xxx", are probably supported by what he wrote on the Principia Discordia book (we are assuming here that he actually wrote the book, because of lack of sources establishing that he didn't), or in statements on forewords of his books. --Enric Naval (talk) 17:26, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * And I remove them. All this stuff is in the links, and in time ill get to proper citation, but for now its cluttering up the article. --PopeFauveXXIII (talk) 10:44, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Not a real person?
At first I just thought these people were idiots. But I found out what's going on. Discordians themselves, in some twisted logic, are actually the ones suggesting that they are lying about Thornley being a real person. That's rubbish though. I remember seeing this interview with him on tv and I scrambled to go find it. Maybe someone can fit it into the page.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2nAGXmK4hk&feature=player_embedded

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2exmh69Big&feature=player_embedded

You can also pick up his book at the library. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.57.69.136 (talk) 09:22, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Award
An editor removed reference to the Order of the Pineapple, making the statement "Removed reference to Order of the Pineapple. This was created after Kerry Thornley's death."

As his Wikipedia article states, Kerry Wendell Thornley died in 1998. An Order of the Pineapple certificate dated 1994 is featured on the kerrythornley.com website at http://www.kerrythornley.com/misc/pineapple.html. The Order of the Pineapple website (with which I am admittedly somewhat associated) at op.loveshade.org says the award was first presented in 1982. While not an "official" source, the Order of the Pineapple Wiki at pineapple.fandom.com includes photos and statements from people named to the order who were involved before 1998.

Therefore I have restored the reference to the Order. Alden Loveshade (talk) 23:16, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Kerry Wendell Thornley


text:
Dappled Cities

Dappled Cities (formerly "Dappled Cities Fly") are an indie rock band from Sydney, Australia.

1997–2003
The band came together as teenagers in the northern suburbs of Sydney in 1997. Dave Rennick and original drummer Hugh Boyce were joined by Alex Moore on bass and Tim Derricourt on guitar. Keyboards were added occasionally by Mark Bradshaw, and after 2006 more regularly by Ned Cooke.

The band started out playing at all-ages shows and charity benefits before they reached legal age to play in the licensed venues in the Sydney CBD. They performed at the Hopetoun Hotel (now defunct), the Excelsior and The Bat and Ball. The band members moved to the inner suburbs of Sydney and after various name changes settled on Dappled Cities Fly.

The band made several tours of Australia and also toured New Zealand in 2004. In 2006 Dappled Cities Fly performed in London, England and at shows in the United States, including South by Southwest, where they played again in 2009 and 2010. From 2006 to 2009, the band did a number of tours of America and Canada, including performances at the Crocodile Club in Seattle, Mercury Lounge in New York and the Troubadour in Los Angeles.

2004–present: Recording career
Dappled Cities Fly's first album, A Smile, was released in late 2004 and was featured as album of the week on radio stations FBi and Triple J. and reviewed favourably in The Sydney Morning Herald.

In 2006, Dappled Cities released their second album, Granddance, recorded at Sunset Sounds and Senora Studios in Los Angeles. The album's cover artwork has the band's name as Dappled Cities, without the word "Fly"; while this was done for artistic reasons at the time, by 2009 the band were calling themselves simply Dappled Cities. In 2007 the band toured with Sydney band Red Riders, and later recorded and released a cover version of "November Rain" with them. In February 2008 Boyce left the band, and was replaced later that year by drummer Allan Kumpulainen.

Dappled Cities' third album, Zounds, was released in Australia in 2009 and in the United States in early 2010. The album received many positive reviews. Pitchfork gave the band 7.8 and noted that "Dappled Cities haven't quite acquired a big reputation outside their homeland yet, but it seems likely they will". The band toured during this period in New York and London while also doing a number of tours around Australia to positive reviews.

The band recorded their fourth album, Lake Air, throughout September 2011 at Megaphon Studios in St Peters, following recording sessions in San Francisco and Los Angeles. The recording was done with the assistance of Jarrad Kritzstein and the album released in July 2012.

In 2013, the band collaborated with the Australian Brandenburg Orchestra and members of the Australian Chamber Orchestra for "The Future is Baroque", a Sydney Festival exclusive event pairing Dappled Cities' music with Baroque instrumentation. The band played as the supporting act at Death Cab for Cutie's "Codes and Keys" tour at the Palace Theatre in Melbourne, Australia.

The band returned from hibernation to play a sold-out show at Sydney's Newtown Social Club on 5 February 2016. The show featured a number of new songs from the band's upcoming fifth album, ||||| (pronounced "five"). In May that year they released a new single, "That Sound". In early 2017 the second single, "Stone Men", was released along with an accompanying music video. ||||| itself was released on 5 May 2017, the date intentionally mirroring the album title. The title was chosen to reflect the fact that the band had made five albums, had five members and had not put out an album in five years. ||||| was properly launched with a show at the City Recital Hall in Sydney. At the show, it was announced that bassist Alex Moore would be leaving the band. He was later replaced by Mark Harding.

Following another five-year hiatus, the band released a three-track EP entitled "Be Here" in late 2022, followed by a live performance in Sydney, Australia in January 2023.

Members

 * Current members
 * Dave Rennick – guitar, lead vocals (1997–present)
 * Tim Derricourt – guitar, lead vocals (1997–present)
 * Ned Cooke – keyboards, sampler, backing vocals (2006–present)
 * Allan Kumpulainen – drums (2008–present)
 * Mark Harding – bass, backing vocals (2017–present), keyboards (2017, touring)

 * Past members
 * Hugh Boyce – drums (1997–2008)
 * Alex Moore – bass (1997–2017)
 * Mark Bradshaw – keyboards (2004–2006)

AIR Awards
The Australian Independent Record Awards (commonly known informally as AIR Awards) is an annual awards night to recognise, promote and celebrate the success of Australia's Independent Music sector.

! scope="row" rowspan="2"| 2009
 * Zounds
 * Best Independent Album
 * Nominated
 * themselves
 * Independent Artist of the Year
 * Nominated
 * Nominated

ARIA Music Awards
The ARIA Music Awards are annual awards, which recognises excellence, innovation, and achievement across all genres of Australian music. They commenced in 1987.

! Ref. ! scope="row"| 2009 ! scope="row"| 2012
 * Zounds
 * Best Independent Release
 * Lake Air
 * Best Independent Release
 * Nominated
 * }
 * }

title: Dappled Cities


text: User talk:12.217.120.57

title: User talk:12.217.120.57


text: User talk:64.228.37.141

title: User talk:64.228.37.141


text:
Pat Wilson

Patricia Mary Wilson (née Higgins; born 11 June 1948) is an Australian singer and journalist. Wilson wrote for Go-Set, a 1960s and 1970s pop music newspaper, under the pen-name "Mummy Cool" during 1971–1972. Wilson released several singles in the early 1980s including the hit single "Bop Girl". The song was written by her then husband Ross Wilson of the bands Daddy Cool and Mondo Rock. Pat currently resides in the Melbourne suburb of Elwood.

Early years
Little is known about Wilson's early years.

She first saw Ross Wilson perform with his band The Pink Finks in about 1965, when she was sixteen. They met when he was working for the Department of Supply. In 1969, Ross left Australia for England to become a member of Procession. Wilson joined him there; they married and returned to Australia.

Ross and three bandmates formed Daddy Cool in 1970 and toured Australia. In early 1971 they performed at the Myponga Festival in South Australia. Concert footage of their performance of "Eagle Rock" shows a pregnant Wilson in the front row (from 1m.43sec, right hand side of the screen). Both Pat (visibly pregnant) and Ross also appear in Chris Löfvén's short film Part Two - The Beginning. The Wilsons' son Daniel was born just as "Eagle Rock" reached No. 1 on the National singles charts. At about this time, Wilson started writing her column for Go-Set taking over an advice column called "Dear Lesley Pixie" and using the pen-name "Mummy Cool". She also appeared in a documentary about the band, singing with Rock Granite and the Profiles, a group which featured future members of Jo Jo Zep and the Falcons.

In 1975 Wilson appeared on Australian band Skyhooks' second album Ego is not a Dirty Word playing finger cymbals on the title track, "Ego is not a Dirty Word". Ross produced the album.

"Bop Girl"
In September 1983, Wilson released "Bop Girl", a song written by Ross which peaked at number 2 in Australia; and achieved airplay in the United States, where it peaked at No. 104 on the Billboard pop chart. Ross also provided backing vocals and appeared in its music video.

Eric McCusker of Mondo Rock, when interviewed in Juke Magazine in 1983, was asked whether he could have written something like "Bop Girl", he replied:

 * "No, that's a very Ross Wilson song isn't it? That's been around for about four years.  I think Ross did a demo with some guys from the first Mondo line up and we all liked the song but it was obvious it wasn't a Mondo Rock sound.  But that's what I say about doing other things aside from Mondo Rock: it's healthy and you don't feel restricted as a result."

A single "Strong Love" was released in May 1984 and peaked at number 26. This was following by the 5-track mini-album Strong Love. This mini-album was issued in the US as Bop Girl.

Personal life
Wilson was married to musician Ross Wilson for 20 years, according to her account on ABC-TV's Talking Heads on 9 July 2007, where Peter Thompson interviewed Ross. They have a son, Daniel, born in 1971.

Albums

 * Strong Love (1984 Warner Music Group)

Singles

 * "Bop Girl" / "Tacky" (1983) AUS No. 2
 * "Strong Love" (1984) AUS No. 26

Countdown Music Awards
Countdown was an Australian pop music TV series on national broadcaster ABC-TV from 1974–1987 and it presented music awards from 1979–1987, known as the Countdown Music Awards.

 * rowspan="3"| 1983
 * rowspan="2"| "Bop Girl"
 * Best Debut Single
 * Won
 * Best Promotional Video
 * Nominated
 * herself
 * Most Popular Female Artist
 * Nominated
 * herself
 * Most Popular Female Artist
 * Nominated

title: Pat Wilson


text:
User:Sastrawan

I'm Jarrah Sastrawan.

title: User:Sastrawan


text:
Talk:Skye Sweetnam

Untitled
Surely someone out there has more info on this woman than is available in this article. I realize she's young, but there has to be more to her story than is present in that pithy paragraph.

dead links
I took out two links. One added recently still says "coming soon". It can be added when it's working. Another was not accessible. Given these are just fan sites, with little original content, there's no point in having them, unless they are actually operating. --rob 04:12, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Volio
I put this back, without rewording it. it should be cleaned up, hopefully by somebody more familiar. BTW, there was an AFD on Volio. It was kept, but merged here. Not all the wording should be preserved, but its worth a little mention at least. --Rob 06:08, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Removed

 * Her first single, "Billy S.", was the center of attention when many teenagers posted the lyrics online as "Meet Juliet or my Volio" as opposed to "Meet Juliet or Malvolio". The word Volio gained use among many of her fans as an example of a mondegreen (a misheard and misinterpreted song lyric).

 * The song's title is a reference to William Shakespeare. Within the song, Sweetnam uses Shakespeare as a symbol for institutional education and the subsequent constrictive authority that is attached with it. With this in mind, the song demolishes this symbol, in a lyrical fit of teenage angst and rebellion. The lines referencing this are located within the chorus:

 * ''"I don't need to read Billy Shakespeare, meet Juliet or Malvolio.
 * Feel for once what it's like to rebel now. I want to break out. Let's go!"''

 * The characters Juliet (from Romeo and Juliet) and Malvolio (from Twelfth Night) were taken from plays by Shakespeare. However, many young Sweetnam fans, having never read those plays, were unaware of character names, and subsequently many incorrect versions of the lyrics of "Billy S." were posted on online lyrics websites. The most common mistake was that of the line "Meet Juliet or my Volio" instead of "Meet Juliet or Malvolio".

 * This common mistake soon spread across the internet on various lyric-based websites, despite Volio not being a word or a phrase. As a result, some internet users have adopted this word as their own, giving Volio its official definition as "a polio-infected Swedish automobile". This definition views the word Volio as a hybrid combining the disease polio and the Swedish Volvo, a manufacturer of cars.

 * It is now used by some in internet slang, used to refer to any lyrical typo or misunderstanding.

I've moved the above here until someone can verify this stuff. Even then, I don't think it's particularly encyclopedic, and certainly shouldn't take up three/fourths of the article as it did. I personally thinks it's some kind of joke/hoax. But either way, if someone finds a source for this stuff, please add the above back into the article. 207.216.170.38 09:53, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * it's not a joke/hoax, but it should be reduced to a line or two. e.g.
 * "The line in Billy S. 'Meet Juliet or Malvolio' -- a Shakespearean character -- was heard by most listeners as 'Meet Juliet on my Volio' and therefore thought by many to be a brand of video player. in the wake of this, the previously nonexistent term gained some currency in slang with said meaning (video player)."
 * some tech company, in fact, started using the name for something in the wake of this. 18 years later, i don't know if the product -- or the general slang meaning -- is still around, however. 66.30.47.138 (talk) 15:53, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

eLLa
Skye's just revealed another of her "projects" on Twitter, an "alter ego" (as she calls it) named eLLa.

http://twitter.com/#!/SkyeSweetnam/status/61132768301686784

http://www.myspace.com/ellaellaolla

Someone with a bit more time on their hands might want to include this in the article. --ozzmosis (talk) 18:29, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

title: Talk:Skye Sweetnam


text:
Flo (TV series)

Flo is an American sitcom television series and a spin-off of Alice that aired on CBS from March 24, 1980, to June 30, 1981. The series starred Polly Holliday reprising her role as sassy and street-smart waitress Florence Jean "Flo" Castleberry who returns to her hometown of Fort Worth, Texas—referred to as "Cowtown"—and becomes the proprietor of a rundown old roadhouse that she renames "Flo's Yellow Rose". Although the series started strong—in the Top 10 during its short first season run —repeated timeslot changes resulted in it falling out of the Top 40 shows by mid-March 1981. It was subsequently not renewed when CBS announced its 1981 fall lineup at the May upfronts.

Synopsis
After several years as a waitress at Mel's Diner in Phoenix, Flo is on her way to a new restaurant hostess job in Houston, Texas, as described in her final appearance on Alice, "Flo's Farewell" (season 4, episode 18). She stops to visit her family in her hometown of Cowtown, Texas, (Cowtown is the popular nickname of Fort Worth) and in a fit of nostalgia, Flo buys a rundown old roadhouse she had enjoyed in her formative years and renames it "Flo's Yellow Rose". Coping with chauvinistic bartender Earl (Geoffrey Lewis) and the greedy and obnoxious banker Farley (Jim B. Baker) who holds the mortgage, as well as her mother Velma (Sudie Bond) and straight-laced sister Fran (Lucy Lee Flippin), causes most of the conflict in the series.

The rest of Flo's staff at the Yellow Rose includes her childhood best friend Miriam (Joyce Bulifant) as waitress/bookkeeper, and chain-smoking piano player Les (Stephen Keep). Randy, the mechanic (Leo Burmester) who worked at the garage next door, and Chester (Mickey Jones), were regular customers. Vic Tayback made one guest appearance as Mel Sharples from Alice. Once Flo began, Polly Holliday never appeared again on Alice, except in flashback clips in the last episode.

Cast

 * Polly Holliday as Florence Jean "Flo" Castleberry
 * Geoffrey Lewis as Earl Tucker
 * Jim B. Baker as Farley Waters
 * Sudie Bond as Mama Velma Castleberry
 * Leo Burmester as Randy Stumphill
 * Joyce Bulifant as Miriam Willoughby
 * Lucy Lee Flippin as Fran Castleberry
 * Stephen Keep as Les Kincaid
 * George Flower as Roy
 * Mickey Jones as Chester
 * Terry Willis as Wendell Tubbs (1980)

Theme song
The theme song, "Flo's Yellow Rose", written by Fred Werner and Susie Glickman, was sung by Hoyt Axton who would co-star with Holliday in the 1984 film Gremlins. Axton would later guest-star in the episode "You Gotta Have Hoyt", as himself.

Broadcast history
Flo was broadcast in these following timeslots during its two-season run on CBS:

 * March 1980 – April 1980: Monday 9:30–10:00 p.m.
 * July 1980 – January 1981: Monday 8:00–8:30 p.m.
 * February 1981: Saturday 9:00–9:30 p.m.
 * March 1981 – May 1981: Saturday 8:30–9:00 p.m.
 * June 1981 – July 1981: Tuesday 8:30–9:00 p.m.

Reception and cancellation
The short first season (spring 1980) was a ratings success ranking at No. 7 and had 24.4 million viewer average. The following season brought a sharp decline in numbers (due to repeated timeslot changes), and CBS opted not to renew the series for a third season.

Award nominations

 * Nominated: 1980 Primetime Emmy Award – Outstanding Lead Actress in a Comedy Series (Polly Holliday)
 * Nominated: 1981 Golden Globe Award – Best Performance by an Actress in a Television Series – Comedy or Musical (Polly Holliday)
 * Nominated: 1981 Golden Globe Award – Best Supporting Actor in a Series, Miniseries or Motion Picture Made for Television (Geoffrey Lewis)

Home media release
On November 5, 2013, Flo: The Complete Series was released on DVD in Region 1 by Warner Home Video via their Warner Archive Collection. This is a Manufacture-on-Demand (MOD) release available via WBShop.com & Amazon.com.

Book
A book chronicling the development of the TV series Alice and Flo entitled Alice: Life Behind the Counter in Mel's Greasy Spoon (A Guide to the Feature Film, the TV Series, and More) was published by BearManor Media in September 2019. Flo was also considered in the book Single Season Sitcoms of the 1980s by Bob Leszczak, published by McFarland in 2016.

title: Flo (TV series)


text:
User talk:Wikiadd~enwiki

Thanks for experimenting with Wikipedia. Your test worked, and has been reverted or removed. Please use the sandbox for any other tests you want to do. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. Thanks. — Asbestos | Talk 10:05, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Your account will be renamed
Hello,

The developer team at Wikimedia is making some changes to how accounts work, as part of our on-going efforts to provide new and better tools for our users like cross-wiki notifications. These changes will mean you have the same account name everywhere. This will let us give you new features that will help you edit and discuss better, and allow more flexible user permissions for tools. One of the side-effects of this is that user accounts will now have to be unique across all 900 Wikimedia wikis. See the announcement for more information.

Unfortunately, your account clashes with another account also called Wikiadd. To make sure that both of you can use all Wikimedia projects in future, we have reserved the name Wikiadd~enwiki that only you will have. If you like it, you don't have to do anything. If you do not like it, you can pick out a different name. If you think you might own all of the accounts with this name and this message is in error, please visit Special:MergeAccount to check and attach all of your accounts to prevent them from being renamed.

Your account will still work as before, and you will be credited for all your edits made so far, but you will have to use the new account name when you log in.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Yours, Keegan Peterzell Community Liaison, Wikimedia Foundation 03:24, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Renamed
 This account has been renamed as part of single-user login finalisation. If you own this account you can |log in using your previous username and password for more information. If you do not like this account's new name, you can choose your own using this form after logging in: . -- Keegan (WMF) (talk) 20:29, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

title: User talk:Wikiadd~enwiki


text:
St Mark's Church School

St Mark's Church School is an independent Anglican co-educational school in Wellington, New Zealand for children aged from two (Early Childhood) to Year 8. The school is often seen on cricket match broadcasts from Basin Reserve. To its front is the modern, 1970s-era church building, the parish church to which the school is attached. A wooden church stood in its place prior to the 1970s redevelopment.

Its first principal was Miss Annie Holm, who served the school until the 1940s, aided by her sister. The school's library is named after her. The Rev Ronald Kirby was another long-serving and influential principal, from 1971 to his death in 1982; the school's main block is named in his honour. The vicar of St. Mark's Church, Rev. Matthew Calder, taught Religious Education for all that time, and presided over Rev. Kirby's funeral; another block is named the Calder Block for him.

Notable alumni

 * Raybon Kan, comedian
 * Karl Urban, actor
 * Ray Wallace, Mayor of Lower Hutt

title: St Mark's Church School


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/6939

6939
Only particularly notable future years should be listed, and there's nothing here that isn't already mentioned on the 1939 New York World's Fair article. -- sjorford 10:06, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. If anyone's going to look for that info they'll look for 1939 New York World's Fair. The year 6939 isn't of enough interest to list yet. [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|(talk)]] 10:31, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete . Let's reevaluate in 4934 years or so, provided humanity still exists then—to say nothing of Wikipedia. JRM 11:06, 2004 Dec 8 (UTC)
 * I've put in the format of other year articles, and I'm changing my vote to Strong delete. No reason. Just because. JRM 20:07, 2004 Dec 8 (UTC)
 * Delete: In the year 2525, if mankind can survive.... Agree that it's best discussed in either time capsule or 1939 New York World's Fair.  The only sure thing is that in 6939 no one will remember where it is. Geogre 14:28, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. The only things from this far in the future that we can predict will probably happen are astronomical events, and unless we can be pretty sure something really phenomenal is going to happen then, this year is non-notable. [[User:Livajo|力伟|☺]] 18:07, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. No reason.  Just because.  P Ingerson 18:58, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep and put in the format of other year articles. Gamaliel 19:03, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep It's notable enough, and is trivia with educational value. Wyss 20:45, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete It should be mentioned in the World's fair article, not here. JesseW 21:22, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. There is no harm in this being listed under 6939 and it is of educational interest. [[User:GRider|GRider\talk]] 21:35, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete as stand-alone article and merge relevant info to the World's Fair article. - Lucky 6.9 22:29, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Please note that all relevant info is already in the World's Fair article. 6939 just duplicates it. JRM 22:38, 2004 Dec 8 (UTC)
 * Ah, ye be correct, sire. Shoulda checked the article first.  My bad. - Lucky 6.9 23:28, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. We have to be consistent. If we delete this, we should delete 2005, since they're both future years reporting on what may happen then. I think everyone would agree 2005 should be kept, so this should be kept too. Shane King 00:28, Dec 9, 2004 (UTC)
 * IMO, false analogy. 2005 does not merely report what may happen then, it also reports what, according to people in 2004, may happen then. Considering that 2005 is not a month away, we may not call this article current, but it's certainly strongly related to current events. No such claim can remotely be made for 6939. (Of course such a claim can also not be made for, say, 42, but past years are included for historical interests. Future years play in another league.) 6939 has no relevant context, and will not acquire one for several thousand years to come. (This is a guess, of course, but I'd say a fairly educated one.) JRM 00:46, 2004 Dec 9 (UTC)
 * It's not intended to be an analogy. It's a cry for some consistency. Either future years are worthy or inclusion or they're not. How far in the future they are is not a deletion criteria that I can find listed anywhere. Shane King 06:24, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Year. --Goobergunch|? 02:00, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Unverifiable. And all important information already in 1939 New York World's Fair. As for consistency: Emerson. Wikipedia is inconsistent; it is in the Wiki-nature. Consistency arguments are consistently used to conduct "races to the bottom." We do not need to keep a grossly inappropriate article simply because we have some arguably inappropriate ones. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 02:33, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * P. S. And notice all the redlinks to adjacent years and centuries. I was sorely tempted to create a matching article for 6942 with the only content being Events: April 30, 6942: Scheduled third anniversary of the opening of the Time Capsule... [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 13:49, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I vote delete for consistency reasons as often as I vote keep for consistency reasons. Does that mean we have a race to the top when I vote to delete? ;) Shane King 06:24, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC)
 * And a PS of my own: As for Emerson's hobgoblins of consistency, I follow agree with him. As he says: "With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do." I think if we had nothing to do on vfd because all decisions were just consistently following precedent it would be a good thing. Then great souls could be writing articles. Shane King 06:31, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. There is only a miniscule chance that the time capsule will actually be opened in this year. The info is far more relevant to 1939. [[User:GeorgeStepanek|GeorgeStepanek\talk ]] 02:53, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * del. Mikkalai 03:22, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete, preferably before 6939. Antandrus 03:27, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Just another year in the very distant future. Nobody will open the time capsule then anyway. More likely it'll be opened by somebody sooner who can't read 20th century English and/or doesn't know what a time capsule is. Everyking 06:37, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * And during this past century, we've been able to figure out the lives of people in ancient Egypt in the year 3000 BC, 5000 years ago. Nobody will open and no one will know? Unless you're a renowned fortune teller, I'd have to say that was a very shaky assumption. --Andylkl 19:39, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I do think someone will open it someday. I just don't think it'll happen in the year 6939. Everyking 22:00, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * That's exactly why it should be deleted. We shouldn't have things in Wikipedia whose truth or falsehood can be assessed only by fortunetelling. The scheduling of the opening of the time capsule is a verifiable event, but that verifiable event occurred in 1939, not in 6939. The actual opening of the time capsule is not a verifiable event. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 21:04, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Then why in the world do we have mentions about olympic events, solar/lunar eclipses and any other astronomy related events scheduled to occur in the future in Wikipedia? You don't need a fortune teller to know (or expect) the events to occur on that particular day. There's a difference between schduled events and made-up assumptions, alongside the already numerous years for fictional events and settings in fiction. --Andylkl 14:04, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * You're comparing regularly organized international sporting events and astronomical phenomena to the wishful thinking of a 4000 year old trash receptacle being remembered in context and found intact at the exact day of April 30, 6939? Now that's what I call a made-up assumption :-) Re fictional events: not comparable. Those events can't be falsified by any means, that's why they're fiction. The claim can reasonably be made that these "will" happen (or "exist") within their realm of fiction. You could sooner claim we need new articles or new namespaces for fictional events in future years than that the speculative-beyond-belief time capsule opening belongs in the article as a "real" event.JRM 14:20, 2004 Dec 10 (UTC)
 * I think you've misunderstood me, my comparison was regarding only scheduled events and clear made-up assumptions, as in Mikkalai's future baby being the next president (who knows?), alongside the science fictional events set in the future. My point is that since there are already many items about fictional events in Wikipedia's timeline, this item should at least be worthy enough to be placed half way between fiction and reality. --Andylkl 17:22, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think I see what you're getting at, now. In this particular case, however, I still say delete. It may be halfway as far as the fiction/reality divide goes, but it's so far out there on the present/future divide that it would need to be damned factual for me to want to keep it. I'm talking astronomical events here like "on April 30, 6939 the Earth will be hit by the Zoolander comet"; even the Olympics would be so absurdly speculative for the 70th century that a scheduled one would not deserve mention. JRM 19:18, 2004 Dec 10 (UTC)
 * Keep. We're dealing with the fact that it is a legitimate event that is scheduled to happen on that particular year whether it's 5000 days or 5000 years away. I'm curious, what is the exact basis for the deletion of this article? --Andylkl 19:26, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * the basis is that only the "scheduled" part is verifiable. My wife and me scheduled to give birth to a future President of the USA on December 10, 2005. Mikkalai 20:58, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Idea rejected: Even the "scheduled" part is unverifiable. ;) Seriously, if we were to hang on the idea that only "scheduled" part is verifiable, any article about 2005 onwards would be on VfD. Please see my comment above, thanks. =) --Andylkl 14:04, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * My basis for listing it is that it is a single trivial event five thousand years away. We have separate articles for 2005, 2006, 2007 and so on because there are many scheduled events, with a high likelihood of happening, that many people alive today will get to experience, and it's useful to have them all listed together on a single index page. This is just one piece of trivia, which has a miniscule chance of actually occuring - in fact, I will wager my life that it won't happen :) The information could possibly be moved to 7th millennium, if it's really wanted, but that article's pretty useless as well. sjorford 16:45, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. What Sjorford says: year pages are interesting because they place events in their context. And there is no context here, just a single event, which is more likely to happen within the next 100 years. And it's not likely there will be more events on this page until, say, around the year 6925. Eugene van der Pijll 01:26, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Assuming this is mentioned in the 1939 World's Fair article, having it here is pointless, and way too speculative. I gotta say, I feel sorry for the guy who tries to smoke those Camels though. -R. fiend 03:25, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete Sortior 22:33, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. JFW | T@lk  11:28, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

title: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/6939


text: User talk:212.248.226.1

title: User talk:212.248.226.1


text: User talk:196.35.5.145

title: User talk:196.35.5.145