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Tamarin, Mauritius

Tamarin is a village on the western coast of Mauritius. It has long been the seat of the council district of Rivière Noire (Black River). The district council recently moved to its new headquarters in Bambous, this village being more accessible to the villagers.

An old fisherman village, Tamarin has developed into a residential area and a moderated holiday resort. Tamarin is especially popular with surfers.

The village is surrounded by hills and is very picturesque. It is located next to Black River, another fisherman's village on the west coast of the island.

Tamarin has benefited from continuous development in recent years including a new commercial and leisure area as well as a new primary school.

Tamarin Bay
The area was known as Santosha Bay (you'll still find the word 'Santosha' scribbled on a few buildings in faded paint) and offered wave hunters some of the best surfing on the planet. In fact, before the bay earned the name Santosha, locals refused to give the beach a moniker because they didn't want outsiders to discover their cache of surfable seas!

Tamarin Bay was discovered by a wider audience and immortalised after the release of the classic surf documentary "Forgotten Island of Santosha" by Larry and Roger Yates in 1974. Tamarin has two world renowned surfing spots: ‘Dal’ on its left (south) and ‘Black Stone’ on the right (north) of the bay.

Dolphins are often found close to Tamarin Bay. Both Spinners and Bottlenose dolphins are usually seen playing early in the morning in the bay before going back to the open sea. Various boat companies offer trips to watch and swim with dolphins in the mornings. Tamarin is very famous for their apartments and long service that they offer to tourists.

Salt Pans
Tamarin is the main salt pan in Mauritius. Its hot and dry environment provides ideal conditions for salt making. The pans cover an area of about 30 hectares and can be seen from the main coastal road.

Salt production dates back to the French period and the tradition of its making is almost unchanged after nearly two centuries. Water is pumped directly from the nearby sea and allowed to evaporate in the basins. Salt is harvested a few days later.

By 2012 cheap imports (mostly from India) had been allowed and the production became uneconomic except for niche high value fleur de sel. By 2017 the main salt pans have stopped functioning and are being developed for housing and amenities.

Transport
Tamarin is connected to Quatre Bornes and Port Louis by a Highway which together with all the other Main Roads are under the responsibility of the Ministry of Public Infrastructure.

Tamarin is near the terminus of the west line of Mauritius' former railway system.

Education
École maternelle et primaire Paul et Virginie, a French international school, is in Tamarin.

The Telfair International Primary, a private co-educational school, is also located in Tamarin.

title: Tamarin, Mauritius


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SR Class 4Lav

The Southern Railway (SR) gave the designation 4-LAV to the electric multiple units built to work the semi-fast services on the route between London and Brighton. None of these units survived long enough in British Rail ownership to be allocated a TOPS class.

Construction
The original series of 4-LAV (4-car Lavatory stock) units, (numbers 1921–1953), were built at Eastleigh carriage works during 1931 and 1932 for use on the newly electrified London to Brighton line. They were fitted with four Metropolitan-Vickers 275 h.p. traction motors. Despite the prominence given to the lavatory provision in the SR designation, there was actually only one vehicle containing lavatories in the whole four-car unit, and due to the lack of corridors in the unit, only passengers in that coach had access to them. The units were renumbered 2921–2953 in the January/February 1937 renumbering of SR EMUs.

Two further units, (numbers 2954 and 2955) were added to stock in 1940, under the direction of Oliver Bulleid. These were fitted with English Electric 275 h.p. traction motors.

The DMBT (Driving Motor Brake Third) had a full-width cab with a guard's compartment behind, and seven third class compartments seating 70. The TC (Trailer Composite) had five first-class and four third-class compartments seating 40 in each class. The TCL (Trailer Composite with Lavatory) had five first-class and three third-class compartments seating 30 and 24, respectively, with a toilet at each end.

One unit, number 2926, was fitted with one 2-HAL type motor coach.

Use
Throughout their careers they operated the slower services on the London to Brighton line between either London Bridge or Victoria and Brighton railway station. They were also used on stopping trains on the Arun Valley Line and on the Sussex coast lines to the east and west of Brighton.

Formations
Initial formations of these units were as follows (cars not always formed in numerical order):

Withdrawal
The majority of the 4-LAV units were withdrawn from ordinary passenger service in 1968, with the final few going in April 1969, being replaced on their duties by new 4-VEP sets. Almost all the units were scrapped, but some of the 1940-built cars survived in departmental (non-revenue earning) use for several more years. However, no 4-LAV stock exists today.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: SR Class 4Lav


text: User talk:129.132.179.22

title: User talk:129.132.179.22


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Talk:Eurocon

Missing Eurocons
Please update this page if you know where some of the missing Eurocons from the list were held. --Chino 11:15, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

WP:TRIVIA in §List of Eurocons?
Hi !

In september, you added, which claims "This section contains information of unclear or questionable importance or relevance to the article's subject matter."

The table in that section contains the following fields: Which of these columns is, in your opinion, of "unclear" or "questionable" importance (or relevance)?
 * Year
 * City
 * Country
 * Guests of honor

Most people would say that these are the most important and relevant information you can list about a convention, but I am interested in your point of view on the subject. Also, the views of anyone else, of course.

--Lou Crazy (talk) 17:47, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

 * The table, as you correctly point out, might contain amongst the most important and relevant information to the topic. It, if there are references in this article at all, however does not contain references inline.
 * The information present beneath the table in the same section is the worst offender against, as that template's page says, "[being] of encyclopedic merit and both relevant to the topic of the article and non-trivial".
 * Without citations, simply assuming the same may seem unfair; I hope you'd agree that on a cursory glance—even assuming all that information is factual—it is characteristically WP:TRIVIA. —I'llbeyourbeach (talk) 21:10, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

 * I see. The second part is a list of awards year by year. It would really belong to the European SF Awards page. As you can see, it is exactly the kind of details which would be relevant and necessary in that page. Unfortunately, that page was deleted recommending a merge with this page. So, we now have to host it here. Unless you want to split this page and European SF Awards again, which I would support.
 * --Lou Crazy (talk) 11:21, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
 * P.S. I split the two blocks of information for further clarity, and also moved your template to the relevant section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lou Crazy (talk • contribs) 11:44, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

title: Talk:Eurocon


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William Sawrey Gilpin

William Sawrey Gilpin (4 October 1762 – 4 April 1843) was an English artist and drawing master, and in later life a landscape designer.

Biography
Gilpin was born at Scaleby Castle, Cumbria on 4 October 1762, the son of the animal painter Sawrey Gilpin. He attended the school of his uncle, William Gilpin (originator of the Picturesque), at Cheam in Surrey. He married Elizabeth Paddock; they had two (or possibly three) sons, one of whom seems to have remained dependent on his father. He died at Sedbury Hall, North Yorkshire, the house of his cousin the Reverend John Gilpin, and is buried nearby in the churchyard at Gilling West.

Artist
In the 1780s, Gilpin taught himself the relatively new aquatint process of printmaking, to produce plates to illustrate his uncle's books on picturesque scenery. Gilpin specialised in watercolours; and in 1804 was elected first President of the Society of Painters in Water-Colours. He was patronised by Sir George Beaumont, through whom he met the picturesque theorist Uvedale Price.

Drawing master
In 1806, Gilpin took a post as drawing master at the Royal Military College, Great Marlow (which moved to Sandhurst in 1812), teaching cadets to make accurate records of the landscape and the lie of enemy positions. This apparently secure employment came to a sudden end in 1820, when he was made redundant in a round of post-Napoleonic war cutbacks, at the age of nearly sixty.

Landscape gardener
To support his family, Gilpin turned to a career as a landscape gardener, for which he had little qualification or experience beyond an artist's eye. He was helped and encouraged in this by Uvedale Price, whose theories on picturesque landscaping clearly accorded well with his own ideas. Gilpin's work also shows the influence of the later work of Price's old adversary Humphry Repton, who had died in 1818.

Gilpin seems to have been remarkably successful. In his short landscape design career he reputedly worked at "some hundreds" of sites. Relatively few designs survive on paper or unaltered on the ground. Features employed by Gilpin included amoeba-shaped flower beds, gently curving paths through irregular shrubberies, and raised terrace walks.

Sites where he is known to have worked include:

 * Bowhill House, Scottish Borders
 * Scotney Castle in Kent
 * Nuneham House in Oxfordshire, where he laid out the Pinetum which now forms the core of the Harcourt Arboretum attached to the Oxford Botanic Garden.
 * Shaw Hill in Lancashire
 * Audley End House in Essex
 * Marston Bigot Park, Marston Bigot, Somerset.
 * Wolterton Hall in Norfolk.
 * Blayney Castle in Castleblayney, County Monaghan, Ireland. He was commissioned by Lieutenant General The 11th Baron Blayney to improve the demesne or park surrounding the 'castle' in the early 1830s.

Author
In 1832, Gilpin published Practical Hints upon Landscape Gardening: with some remarks on Domestic Architecture, as connected with scenery, which ran to a second edition in 1835.

title: William Sawrey Gilpin


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Dunglish

Dunglish (portmanteau of Dutch and English; in Dutch steenkolenengels, literally: "coal-English", or shortened to nengels) is a popular term for an English spoken with a mixture of Dutch. It is often viewed pejoratively due to certain typical mistakes that native Dutch speakers, particularly those from the Netherlands, make when speaking English. The term is first recorded in 1965, with other colloquial portmanteau words including Denglish (recorded from 1983), Dutchlish (1986), and Dinglish (2003).

English instruction in the Netherlands and Flanders, the Dutch-speaking part of Belgium, begins at an early age and continues as a basic school subject thereafter, with a number of university courses and programs entirely in English. English-language films are usually subtitled rather than dubbed. This education and exposure results in a relatively high general competence in English, yet mistakes are made.

The Dutch word for the poorest form of Dunglish, steenkolenengels ("Coal English"), dates to about 1900 when Dutch port workers used a rudimentary form of English to communicate with the crews of English coal ships.

Errors occur mainly in pronunciation, word order, and the meaning of words, so-called false friends and false cognates. Former Dutch ambassador and prime minister Dries van Agt supposedly once said "I can stand my little man" (translation of ik kan mijn mannetje staan, a Dutch idiom meaning roughly "I can stand up for myself"). The former leader of the Dutch Liberal Party (VVD), Frits Bolkestein, repeatedly referred to economic prospects as "golden showers", unaware of the term's sexual connotation.

Incorrect meaning of words
Errors often occur because of the false friend or false cognate possibility: words are incorrectly translated for understandable reasons. Examples are:
 * Former prime minister Joop den Uyl once remarked that "the Dutch are a nation of undertakers". The Dutch verb ondernemen is literally the English to undertake (as onder is under, and nemen is take). The noun ondernemer is thus literally undertaker (which usually refers to a mortician); however, Uyl's intended English meaning was instead entrepreneur. (Dutch uses the more specific begrafenisondernemer for a funeral director.)
 * Former prime minister Pieter Sjoerds Gerbrandy had a meeting with Winston Churchill in London. Gerbrandy entered the room and shook Churchill's hand, saying: "Good-day!" Churchill responded: "This is the shortest meeting I have ever had". Gerbrandy had looked up the English translation of goedendag, which in Dutch is often used as a formal greeting, yet "good day" is most often used as valediction in Britain (as opposed to "good morning" or "good afternoon").
 * Dutch actueel means "current" (whereas actual in English means "precise" or "genuine"). A Dutch person unfamiliar with the English word might therefore be confused if they were asked about the "actual time" an event or appointment is supposed to start, or might misuse the word themselves.
 * The Dutch verb solliciteren means "apply for a job", while English solicit (and soliciting or solicited) can refer to prostitutes approaching clients; this can lead to an embarrassing situation if a native Dutch speaker states, in an English language context that they are soliciting or would like to solicit.
 * The word eventueel in Dutch means potentially (like éventuel in French, eventuell in German, eventual in Spanish, eventuale in Italian, eventual in Portuguese, eventuell in Swedish, eventual in Romanian) and not eventually, which is uiteindelijk in Dutch. This mistake caused a row between the Scottish and Belgian football associations when the Belgian football association invited delegates from various associations over for the "eventual qualification of the Belgian national football team" before the play-offs against Scotland started. While the Scottish federation accused the Belgians of sheer arrogance, the Belgian association had actually meant to hold the event after a "possible" qualification.

Word order
Some Dutch speakers may use Dutch syntax inappropriately when using English. These errors occur because English and Dutch do not apply exactly the same word order.

Modern English has a subject–verb–object word order, but this is shared only partially by Dutch, which has a verb-second order, causing the subject to follow the verb if another constituent already precedes it; e.g., Hij is daar ("He is there"), but Daar is hij; literally "There is he" (idiomatically, "There he is").

Dutch also places perfect participles towards the end of a clause while the auxiliary remains at the verb-second position, allowing for the two to be separated and for many other elements to stand in between; e.g. Ik heb dat gisteren [meteen na de lunch toen ik aankwam etc.] gedaan; literally "I have that yesterday [immediately after the lunch when I arrived etc.] done".

When asking questions, Dutch speakers may mirror the subject-verb inversion of archaic English grammar (e.g. ”What say you?”, ”What meanest thou?”) rather than using do-support as is preferred in contemporary English (e.g. ”What do you mean?”). This is because Dutch does not use periphrastic do-support, which is a rare feature cross-linguistically, but instead inverts the subject and verb when asking questions (e.g. “Heb jij een fiets?”), as is common in the Germanic language family.

In English noun adjuncts, such as Schiphol in the phrase 'Schiphol Meeting Point', the modifying noun comes before the other noun. In Dutch this is the reverse, giving rise to errors like "Meeting Point Schiphol".

Compound nouns written as one word

In English, only certain compound nouns (such as "schoolteacher") can be written as one word, whereas in Dutch the default is to write compound nouns as a single word. This is witnessed in errors in English texts on signs – at Schiphol Airport alone one can see signs for "meetingpoint", "boardingpass" and "traintickets". In some cases the English compound noun spelled as two words has been officially absorbed by the Dutch language as a single loanword – as is the case with creditcard (credit card) and jetlag (jet lag).

Verb conjugation
English and Dutch are both West Germanic languages, with many cognate verbs with identical or nearly identical meanings. This similarity between verbs may cause speakers of Dutch to conjugate English verbs according to Dutch grammar.
 * We kissen her. (Dutch kussen means and is cognate with English to kiss. In Dutch grammar, verbs with plural subjects take a form identical to the infinitive, which in most cases has an en suffix.)
 * What do you now? for What are you doing right now? (In Dutch, Wat doe je nu?)
 * How goes it now? for How are you doing now? (The phrase is used particularly after someone has had a bad spell. A similarly constructed phrase is found in Shakespeare (Othello, Act 4, Scene 3), carrying a slightly different meaning, which underlines the even closer similarities between English and Dutch historically.)

Errors in pronunciation

 * Words like third and the are commonly mispronounced by Dutch speakers as turd and duh (cognate to Dutch de), replacing the dental fricative consonants 'th' that are not present in Dutch with dental plosives, the nearest equivalent.
 * Most Dutch speakers have trouble distinguishing between bat and bad, bet and bed or between back, bag, beck and beg. This is because Dutch devoices obstruents at the end of a word. Dutch also does not distinguish between and.
 * Some pronounce the word idea (in Dutch: idee) without the ending sound, making "Do you have an idea?" and "Do you have an ID?" sound the same.
 * Most Dutch speakers do not voice the English v (that is, their vocal cords do not vibrate when they say it). In English, the labiodental fricative is "f" when unvoiced and "v" when voiced. In the modern Northern Standard Dialect of Dutch, "v" and "z" is often devoiced. This is particularly obvious when "v" or "z" begins a word. For example, many Dutch would pronounce video as /ˈfɪdiəʊ/, instead of /ˈvɪdiəʊ/, or van as /fæn/, instead of /væn/, and zee as see.

Other mistakes

 * Using "greetings" to close a letter. Caused by the literal translation of the Dutch closing phrase "(met vriendelijke) groeten". In English, a greeting typically refers to the beginning of any type of exchange.
 * Using the possessive form without a determiner. For example, "the Lamborghini of Patrick" instead of "Patrick's Lamborghini", or "the computer of her" instead of "her computer".
 * Using apostrophes to indicate plural nouns: "car's" instead of "cars".

Use in media

 * A 2009 Dutch TV ad by the Eneco utility, promoting wind energy, poked fun at the Dutch people's tendency to speak Dunglish.
 * Make that the cat wise, originally started as a Facebook group poking fun at bad English translations by mock translating Dutch sayings, deliberately sticking to Dutch word order and use words that are homonyms in Dutch but not in English, thus creating English sentences that make no sense to native English speakers. The title "Make that the cat wise" is a mock translation of the Dutch saying "Maak dat de kat wijs" (try to convince the cat, i.e. don't try to fool me). The publisher also sells calendars and agendas with this theme.

Literature
Dutch author Maarten H. Rijkens has written two books on the subject for Dutch readers: I always get my sin and We always get our sin too.

title: Dunglish


text:
Talk:An American in Paris

Link suggestions
An automated Wikipedia link suggester has some possible wiki link suggestions for the An_American_in_Paris article:

Notes: The article text has not been changed in any way; Some of these suggestions may be wrong, some may be right. Feedback: I like it, I hate it, Please don't link to — LinkBot 11:22, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Can link tone poem: ...shwin's time in Paris, it is in the form of an extended tone poem evoking the sights and energy of the French capi...
 * Can link native speakers: ...d movies referencing France seldom use location shooting or native speakers . For example, in the Home Alone franchise, all airport ... (link to section)
 * Can link French-Canadian: ...t scenes were fake and the speakers could not even pass for French-Canadian . Great care is however sometimes put into reproducing Paris... (link to section)
 * I have removed the reference to French-Canadians as I consider it to be an NPOV violation when read in context with the rest of the sentence, which didn't make a lot of sense (all airport scenes in movies are, by definition, fake) and was also edited out. 23skidoo 06:05, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I moved information on the movie to An American in Paris (movie). I also changed the links that are intended for the movie to point to the movie section as well. Hopefully this will allow the song section to grow, while noting that it is two seperate artistic works. --Poorpete 19:13, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Proposed move
I think that the movie is more notable and should get this namespace if we have to choose between them. However, I will advocate making this a disambiguation page. If no one objects, I will do this myself in a few days. savidan(talk) (e@) 03:07, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

New York premiere
If it was performed in New York State before that date, note that New York refers to the state, not the city- just since the expression I believe often means New York City premiere? Schissel | Sound the Note! 20:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Taxi Horns: tuned or untuned?
The score calls for four taxi horns, labeled "a", "b", "c", "d". Many recordings use these labels as literal pitches. Strangely, however, Horn "a" always sounds together with a b in the orchestra. Horn "b" with an a, Horn "c" with a c, horn "d" with a b flat. So, if you use these horns with pitches as labeled, you get all sorts of unmusical dissonances. I have heard a recording where more or less untuned horns were used, whch suited the music better. Or should they be tuned to the according orchestral pitches (b, a, c, and b flat)? Does anyone have any evidence as to which system was intended by Gershwin? (I suppose he used four horns that were available (in b, a, c, and b flat) and chose the orchestral pitches according to them, but that's my own opinion...) -- megA 13:04, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Unmusical dissonences were probably what Gershwin was getting at. A taxi horn is not meant to be musical, especaially in a major metro area. Justin Tokke 01:07, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that Gershwin was looking specifically for dissonance here. He wanted authentic Parisian taxi horns, from Paris taxi horn manufacturers. They were flown in. He conducted the 1929 recording mentioned here. He "intended to be there", to explain what he was looking for, explained in this 2016 NPR piece. Bands-of-neon (talk) 20:22, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

 * True that. All the major recordings I've heard (e.g., Bernstein/N.Y. Phil.) have semi-dissonant horns. Otherwise, what's the point? Gershwin would have simply given that line to one of the brass instruments if he was after good intonation. +ILike2BeAnonymous 01:18, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
 * In the Bernstein recording you mention, the horns, although squeaky, are tuned to a, b, c, d, which gives us C major over D flat major and later D major chords. Which I think was not what Gershwin intended. Compare this to this (otherwise neglectible) recording: (Sandor/Budapest Phil.), where the horns are "tuned" to their corresponding orchestral pitches, and its first (1929) recording: (Shilkret/Victory Symph.) , where horns with random pitches are used.
 * My opinion is that Gershwin opted for truly dissonant (or randomly pitched) horns, and simply labeled them a, b, c, d, without pitch connotation . As stated in the preface to the Warner-Chappell/Eulenburg orchestral score about the premiere: "...Ersatz horns were not deemes adequate for the four taxi horns, ...'authentic' horns from Paris were brought over specially." So if Gershwin had specified simple tuned horns, they would have been easily constructed in NYC, without the need to import French horns (pun!). My question is: Did Gershwin himself give citable specifications about the horns to be used? -- megA 11:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

 * So what, exactly, does the score have to say about this? That would seem to be the real authoratitive source here, I would think. Plus I'm curious now. +ILike2BeAnonymous 19:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

 * I have seen a published facsimile of the original autograph score (photos of the original pages printed in book form) at the NYPL for Performing Arts. From my recollection there were taxi horns written on a 5-line percussion stave but each was put on a different line/space as if it was semi-tuned percussion. I don't remember there being labeling for each horn. I'll look it up. Justin Tokke 20:20, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

 * Good. By the way, you meant "staff" (stave is plural), and they are tuned, not "semi-tuned", as each horn has a distinct pitch, just not necessarily well tuned. +ILike2BeAnonymous 21:32, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

 * "Stave" as in UK english. I called them Semi-tuned because they aren't tuned to a specific note. So, yes, they do have distinct pitches, but they are not tuned to, say, an C,D,E,F. A comparable example is temple blocks or variying sizes of triangles. Justin Tokke 00:25, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

 * My score, by Warner/Chappell/Eulenburg, with "(c) 1929, 1930 New world Music corp." has them all on the same single line, with (a), (b), (c), (d) respectively written over them. I thought this was the same in all scores. This seems to be the reason why most recordings (as the Bernstein mentioned above) have them tuned to the pitches of A, B, C, and D. Which, IMO, is wrong, because the form a clear melody of C major, especially at the end of the piece. My favorite recording, (alas, I forgot who did it. EDIT: Found it at last:, listen to the "Windows Media" sample, which has all four horns in it.)) has four different horns, with varying tone colours and completely "unmusical" pitches. (two of them even seem to be double-tone horns) This is what I think Gershwin had in mind. Even more since the 1929 Shilkret recording, with Gershwin on celesta, also uses random horns. Now if there were some explicit specifications by Gershwin... but it seems, as recordings vary so much, that there aren't. -- megA 16:06, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Wow... "unmusical." Really? How limited is your definition of "musical?" Dissonance IS musical. Now, I know you know that. But why do you need to be reminded of it? In the context of a man walking down the streets of Paris, think about how much dissonance would exist vs. any kind of consonance.

It's 20th century music...

 * I've never felt the need to comment on a Wikipedia forum before until now, so I apologize if I did it wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.213.183.3 (talk) 17:32, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Choo'n Gum
The tune is unmistakable. How did it get there in 1928? I was sure it was a postwar composition. Drutt (talk) 07:04, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's a deep dive into this question. It seems this tune dates back to the late 19th century, specifically the 1895 operetta "Los Incocentes" by Ramón Estellés Adrián, where it is called "Machicha de Los Inocentes." Recordings have also been released under various other titles, including "La Sorella", "La Mattchiche" and "La Maxixe" Drutt (talk) 05:41, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Orchestration
Hi, does the sentence "He also did the orchestration" need to be in here? For one thing, the sentence doesn't sound very formal, but the more important thing is that composers usually orchestrate their own symphonies themselves. If this were a musical or film score it would be different, or if it were a symphonic transcription of an already-existing non-orchestral work I would understand. However because he apparently did not orchestrate Rhapsody in Blue, I am having a difficult time deciding what to do with it. Horncomposer (talk) 21:10, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Move? (2012)

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus is that, in this particular case, the long-term significance criterion is of more importance than the usage criterion. Jenks24 (talk) 04:49, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

An American in Paris → An American in Paris (composition) – or An American in Paris (instrumental). This Gershwin piece is used in WP:naming conventions (films) as an example of primary topic, but it is proven to be less popular than the film itself. At usage, the film is popular. However, the piece came first. Relisted. Favonian (talk) 18:33, 23 May 2012 (UTC) --George Ho (talk) 16:42, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Pageviews aren't everything, especially given the relationship between the two entities.  Moreover, I can't even fathom why the film would be getting more pageviews than the composition; the latter is clearly both more notable and more important in the history of popular culture.  Powers T 17:52, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
 * True, the Gershwin piece is played more often and significant and historical part of popular culture, even if WP:PRIMARYTOPIC says that "no single criterion" actually defines an actual primary topic. However, before this piece, I assumed that the title is of only the Gene Kelly film. Then again, who else wants to read more about this very old, obscure Gershwin piece? --George Ho (talk) 20:10, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

 * Oppose. If there was any other existing "An American in Paris" article that was NOT related, inspired or based on Gershwin's piece, then I might have supported this proposal. But as of now I'm comfortable with the status quo, and having Gershwin's piece be the primary topic based more on the long-term significance factor. Zzyzx11 (talk) 05:01, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
 * However, the film meets usage criterion more, while the piece meets long-term. Neither criterion is wrong to determine how one topic meets this criterion nor conclusive to determine which is more primary. Other criteria come in mind to prove that two are not the only criteria, as WP:PRIMARYTOPIC does not have precise definitions and rules on topics: "interest" to inspect the primary source itself (watching a film or listening a piece), "familiarity", and title association ("ambiguity"). I haven't watched or listened, so I must say: I associated this title with the film only before I found out more about the origin of the title, and I have been always familiar with the film before the piece. Therefore, I cannot figure out which one is more primary. --George Ho (talk) 05:13, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
 * As I said, I am comfortable with leaving it with the status quo, because long-term may be used to decide what should be the primary topic. I have yet to see a convincing argument here that the usage or any other criterion should significantly override the long-term criterion to warrant a page move. And it does not help when you end up saying, "I cannot figure out which one is more primary". Zzyzx11 (talk) 05:23, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
 * And again, there are currently only three "An American in Paris" articles that currently exist (not including redirects). And because the other two are related to Gershwin's piece, I also do not see a need to create a main "An American in Paris" disambiguation page. Zzyzx11 (talk) 05:30, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Film is popular and won the "Best Picture" from Oscars; that qualifies as "long-term", but not that much. Anyway, as for the "I cannot figure out..." thing, I said that because there is no evidence that "long-term" significantly overrides usage. Per "interest", does history matter that much? Must everybody know that the film title is an origin of the piece? Must everbody know more about the song than otherwise? Why is keeping "status quo" more important than benefitting the readers by making this proposal happen? --George Ho (talk) 05:45, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Because you have not yet made a convincing argument that "usage" significantly overrides "long-term" either, thus the status quo. Zzyzx11 (talk) 03:47, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. Both the film and the composition have long-term significance, and the usage indicates that the film is the primary topic. The composition should be moved and the film moved to the base name. (It is possible for a related later topic to be primary over a first or "parent" topic.) -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:05, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, I'm planning the disambiguation page under "An American in Paris". That's all. --George Ho (talk) 18:35, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * But since your notes support a change in primary topic, I support changing the primary topic. There's no benefit for any of the readers to simply adding a disambiguation page in the way of the seekers for one topic and leaving all of the others the same one click away from their destination. That's all. -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:49, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * This proposed disambiguation page might just as well be tagged with dabconcept, and easily converted to a dabconcept page, since, again, all current "An American in Paris" topics are related to Gershwin's piece. Zzyzx11 (talk) 03:38, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Not all long-term significance is equal. The composition is one of the seminal works of early twentieth-century music; the film is merely a very good film.  Powers T 01:21, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Support a disambiguation page should be primary. And since they all share the same title, they can be a conventional disambiguation page without needing a dabconcepted page. 70.24.251.208 (talk) 05:08, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Love the music, never seen the film. Rothorpe (talk) 11:31, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose – The current set of article names seems perfectly reasonable and logical. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 15:04, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The Gershwin piece is of substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term (WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of course). But a page at An American in Paris (disambiguation) also seems a good idea. Andrewa (talk) 02:53, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move (2013)

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian (talk) 15:03, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

– The film of the same title is still more popular than the Gershwin piece. Sure, the film was probably derived from the piece, but, like Doctor Zhivago, an original doesn't have to be the primary topic, as prior discussion and WP:NCF wanted it to be. A long-term significance of both the piece and the film equally weigh with recognition and acclaim. If it is moved, then WP:NCF must be re-edited with another example. Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 15:17, 31 March 2013 (UTC) George Ho (talk) 22:32, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
 * An American in Paris → ?
 * An American in Paris (disambiguation) → An American in Paris

 * Support the disambiguation page should be primary. An American in Paris (poem), An American in Paris (instrumental) , An American in Paris (composition) , An American in Paris (song) would work. -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 00:06, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose – Nothing has changed since . -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:59, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Support The "long-term significance" clause is squishy and subjective, nor does the musical seem to lack such. The Doctor Zhivago solution will work here. --BDD (talk) 17:07, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose: Like the previous move discussion, I'm not clearly convinced that the usage criterion should significantly override the long-term criterion to warrant a page move. In addition, like the previous move discussion, there is currently no clear argument on what the new disambiguating word or phrase in parenthesis should be -- whether "poem", "song", "instrumental", "composition" or something else. Agreeing that there should be no primary topic is one thing, but there should be also consensus on what the new title should be. Zzyzx11 (talk) 01:04, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose - The Melody Lingers on: The Great Songwriters and Their Movie Musicals p69, the film and its concluding dance score is just one of many derivatives from the original. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:32, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The Fox and the Hound is a film loosely based on the the original novel. The original novel is not primary topic, and neither are The Notebook, My Sister's Keeper, and so on. Not all originals are primary topic. --George Ho (talk) 05:11, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose per previous discussion and per In ictu oculi. MarnetteD | Talk 20:14, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Like I said, despite long-term significance, originals have almost never been primary topic just because they came first. --George Ho (talk) 05:58, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Original score?
We mention Gerard Schwarz's 1990 recording of "Gershwin's original score, before he made numerous edits resulting in the score as we hear it today". Read at face value, that suggests the premiere occurred on December 13, 1928, after which he made a few changes having heard how it sounded. That's a very common thing. For example, Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony as we know it today is NOT what was played at its premiere, because after the premiere he made some changes to the score.

However, our existing source and also p. 115 here say the changes Gershwin made were made before the premiere. Now, all composers change their scores during the process of composition. Beethoven's scores are replete with crossings out, second thoughts, third thoughts and so on. Do we consider any of these intermediate jottings to be his "original version"? No, we do not. We accept that the whole composition doesn't just spring into their minds fully formed and perfect. They have a germ, and they have to spend tears and sweat on it before they're happy, if they ever are. Just because Gershwin thought he'd finished the score on November 18 doesn't preclude the possibility that he might have other thoughts before the premiere and before the work was sent to the printers. And that's exactly what happened.

So, I question the validity of the record company marketing this recording as "the original score", but we have no say about that. However, we do have a say about what goes into our articles. I’d like to reword this sentence to remove reference to the "original score", and just explain in other words exactly what was recorded and what was different about it.

Does anyone have any comments before I proceed? --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  19:48, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

In light of recent evidence from the NPR piece referenced below, I think there should be a seperate name space for the Concert version, and leave the film to its own Film space. The Original Score would have to be the recording made that which appeared in the film, "An American In Paris".=, and is quite different from the Concert peice recording premiered 1929. Much of Gerwhsin's music used in film or for stage Musicals was rewritten for Concert performance, and should be treated as notable on their own merit. This kind of popularity, where concert and recorded performances are very different, can be seen later in the Musical "Hair", and in a aimilar way, "Rent". Bands-of-neon (talk) 20:33, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

This results in:

I don't want to insert this myself because I'm not sure where in the article is the best place to put it. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:21, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Very nice, thank you. Now, if it only were possible to reduce the size of score, this would be a good replacement. Big as it is, it needs some thought of were in the article to place it, as you mentioned. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:50, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Added Archives
Here is a list of archives/accessdates that I added to this article. -- Tim 1357  talk 04:41, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Analysing statistics of views
This isn't an RM, and I'm not planning to do another RM at the moment. The statistics say that the original Gershwin composition/instrumental is less viewed than the Oscar-winning film and less slightly than the stage musical. Of course, people would say that the Gershwin piece is the "primary topic" by definition. However, how would following the "primary topic" rule, i.e. the current setup, benefit readers? How many do readers read the whole article? How many do they read just the introduction and then move on? --George Ho (talk) 10:27, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

title: Talk:An American in Paris


text:
All's Well, Ends Well Too

All's Well, Ends Well Too (花田喜事) is a 1993 Hong Kong comedy film directed by Clifton Ko, and released as comedy fare as is the usual custom to entertain movie-goers on the Lunar New Year celebrations. The main setting is in the Song Dynasty and this reflects in the period costumes and architecture.

All's Well, Ends Well Too is part of a series of similarly titled films, together with All's Well, Ends Well (1992), of which it is not a sequel, All's Well, Ends Well 1997 (1997), All's Well, Ends Well 2009 (2009), and the similarly themed All's Well, Ends Well 2010 (2010).

Synopsis
This comedy follows in tune with the series of films of the same name. Chow Tung (Samuel Hui) is a licentious man who was arranged to get married along with his ugly sister Gut (Sandra Ng) to partners not of their choice. Chow, being a filial son, agrees to go along with his mother's (Ricky Hui) plans. The plot thickens when Chow meets the beautiful Snow White (Rosamund Kwan) and decides to marry her of which Matriarch Chow agrees whole-heartedly. Unknown to them, Snow White's magician lover, David Cooper Feel (Leslie Cheung) schemes a plan and Chow Tung was married instead to Jinx (Teresa Mo).

The entire film uses mistaken identity as its central theme for comic effect, this theme is repeated for All's Well, Ends Well Too 2010.

Cast

 * Samuel Hui as Chow Tung
 * Leslie Cheung as David Copper Feel (a parody of magician David Copperfield)
 * Rosamund Kwan as Snow White
 * Teresa Mo as Jinx
 * Sandra Ng as Gut
 * Raymond Wong as Lam Ka-sing
 * Ricky Hui as Matriarch Chow
 * Ng Man-tat as Snow White's father
 * Money Lo as Snow White's Servant
 * James Wong as Magistrate
 * Clifton Ko as Pimp
 * Vincent Kok as Bo

Theme song

 * Happy Events Arriving Together (喜事齊來)
 * Composer: Samuel Hui
 * Lyricist: Raymond Wong
 * Singer: Ricky Hui

title: All's Well, Ends Well Too


text:
SR Class 2Wim

2-WIM was the designation given, by Southern Railway (SR), to a 4-strong fleet of electric multiple units, dedicated for use on the ex-LBSCR West Croydon to Wimbledon Line, using the headcode 2. None of these units survived long enough in British Rail ownership to be allocated a TOPS class.

Construction
The 2-WIM (2-car Wimbledon stock, numbers 1809–1812) units were rebuilt in 1929, from former Trailer First cars, originally used in ex-LBSCR AC electric SL stock. They were intended for use on the line between Wimbledon and Croydon. Originally these units had some First Class accommodation in the Driving Motor car, but this was later declassified to Third Class only. The units were numbered 1909–1912 before 1936, when those numbers were reused for new 2-BIL units.

Formations
Initial formations of these units were as follows:

Withdrawal
All four units were withdrawn in 1954, and subsequently scrapped.

title: SR Class 2Wim


text:
Talk:Alain Connes

Suggested WikiLinks
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title: Talk:Alain Connes


text:
Talk:Allan Dwan

Untitled
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title: Talk:Allan Dwan


text:
Talk:Economy of Algeria

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 * Can link Arab world: ...o reform one of the most centrally planned economies in the Arab world stalled in 1992 as the country became embroiled in poli... (link to section)
 * Can link budget deficit: ...5, reducing inflation to approximately 1% and narrowing the budget deficit . Algeria's economy has grown at about 4% annually since link to section)
 * Can link fiscal policy: ... oil prices in 1999-2000 and the government's tight fiscal policy, as well as a large increase in the trade surplus and the n... (link to section)
 * Can link trade surplus: ...t's tight fiscal policy, as well as a large increase in the trade surplus and the near tripling of foreign exchange reserves has help... (link to section)
 * Can link foreign exchange reserves: ...arge increase in the trade surplus and the near tripling of foreign exchange reserves has helped the country's finances. However, an ongoing drou... (link to section)
 * Can link Association Agreement: ...her industries are up for offer. In 2001, Algeria signed an Association Agreement with the European Union; it has started accession negot... (link to section)
 * Can link purchasing power parity: ...[World Trade Organization]].  ===Statistics===  GDP: purchasing power parity - $196 billion (2003 est.)... (link to section)
 * Can link public works: ...ation:''' government 32%, agriculture 14%, construction and public works 10%, industry 13.4%, trade 14.6%, other 16% (2003 est.)... (link to section)
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 * Can link capital goods: ...2 billion (f.o.b., 2003 est.) Imports - commodities: capital goods, food and beverages, consumer goods... (link to section)
 * Can link US dollar: ...) = 100 centimes Exchange rates: Algerian dinars per US dollar - 77.395 (2003), 79.6819 (2002), 77.215 (2001), 75.2598 (20... (link to section)
 * In History of Algeria, can backlink economy of Algeria: ...lth, some infrastructures, and the overall expansion of the economy of Algeria, as well as the formation of new social classes, which, aft...

Translation into Chinese Wikipedia
The 13:18, 19 August 2008 Da monster under your bed version of this article is translated into Chinese Wikipedia.--Wing (talk) 19:29, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Energy
Energy profile of Algeria in Encyclopedia of Earth:. --147.84.132.44 (talk) 14:25, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

External link to tariff data
Hello everyone, I am working for the International Trade Centre (ITC), a UN/WTO agency that aims to promote sustainable economic development through trade promotion. I would like to propose the addition of an external link (http://www.macmap.org/QuickSearch/FindTariff/FindTariff.aspx?subsite=open_access&country=SCC012%7cAlgeria&source=1|ITC) that leads directly to our online database of customs tariffs applied by Algeria. Visitors can easily look up market access information for Algeria by selecting the product and partner of their interest. I would like you to consider this link under the WP:ELYES #3 prescriptions. Moreover, the reliability and the pertinence of this link can be supported by the following facts 1) ITC is part of the United Nations, and aims to share trade and market access data on by country and product as a global public good 2) No registration is required to access this information 3) Market access data (Tariffs and non-tariff measures) are regularly updated

Thank you, Divoc (talk) 16:04, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

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title: Talk:Economy of Algeria


text:
Eravinalloor

Eravinalloor is a village in Kottayam district of Kerala state, India, situated 9 km from Kottayam town. The village is near Puthuppally and is located on the banks of the Kodoor River.

Geography
The small island-like village is surrounded by water. It is connected to the mainland by four bridges: the Puthuppally bridge to Puthuppally, the Eravinalloor bridge to Thrikkothamangalam, the scenic Parakkalkadavu bridge to Kollad lined with acacia trees, and the Panachikkad bridge to Panachikkad. The total area is less than 2 km2.

Religion
The village has five temples of the deities. The Subramanya Swamy Temple has a circular sanctum sanctorum, which is unusual for the Dravidian style of temple architecture. The Panachikad Temple is situated 2.5 km away from Eravinalloor. The Our Lady Of Assumption Church represents the Catholic Church in Eravinalloor.

History
Historically, the land on which Eravinalloor is situated was donated to the Kadamuri Narasimha Swami Temple by the king of Thekkumkur. Eravinallor was among five villages on the land (the others being Ancheri, Kadamuri, Thrikkothamangalam and Meenadom); the 'lord Narasimha of Kadamuri Temple' was thus known as the 'panchadesadipathi', or lord of five lands.

Schools
There are two educational institutions in Eravinalloor: Century old (1912) lower primary school, situated near the Eravinalloor upper junction, and St. Thomas Upper Primary School (normally called 'Achante School'). St. Thomas Upper Primary School was established by Christian priest Rev Fr Kochimoolayil Mani Elias. The Vivekodayam Sanskrit High School, dedicated to the study of Sanskrit, once existed in the village, but it was dismantled in the 1970s.

title: Eravinalloor


text:
Down Ampney

Down Ampney (pronounced Amney) is a medium-sized village located in Cotswold district in Gloucestershire, in England. The population taken at the 2011 census was 644.

It is off the A417 which runs between Cirencester and Faringdon (in Oxfordshire) on the A420, and about 3 mi north of Cricklade, which is on the A419 which runs from Cirencester to Swindon, Wiltshire.

History
Down Ampney was notable in medieval times as one of the seats of the powerful Hungerford family, whose principal family seat was at Farleigh Hungerford, Somerset. The Down Ampney estate later passed from the Hungerford family to the Earls of St German (the Eliot Family).

Ralph Vaughan Williams
The Old Vicarage in Down Ampney was the birthplace in 1872 of composer Ralph Vaughan Williams, whose father, the Reverend Arthur Vaughan Williams (1834–1875), was vicar of All Saints. In 1906 the composer wrote a tune for the hymn "Come Down, O Love Divine" which he titled "Down Ampney" in honour of his birthplace.

RAF Down Ampney
During the Second World War, RAF Down Ampney airfield was a base for Dakota aircraft seeing active service in the war. The airfield played an important role in the Battle of Arnhem, 1944.

Governance
Down Ampney has a Parish Council, currently with 7 members. The current Chair is local resident Ray Jenkins.

As of May 2015 the village became part of 'The Ampneys and Hampton Ward' on Cotswold District Council. The current District Councillor is Liberal Democrat Lisa Spivey who was elected in the 2019 United Kingdom local elections.

Ampney Crucis is part of the wider South Cerney electoral division for elections to Gloucestershire County Council, the current County Councillor is Conservative Shaun Parsons who was elected in the 2017 United Kingdom local elections.

All Saints' Church
All Saints' Church is an ancient building that was founded by the Knights Hospitaller in 1265. It lies on the edge of the village; its peripheral location was brought about when the centre of the village shifted north due to the effects of the bubonic plague.

Its prominent spire dates from the 14th century, although much of the church fabric seen today is the product of Victorian restoration work carried out in 1863.

The church contains a number of elaborate monuments to the Hungerford family, including a 1637 Renaissance-style monument to Sir John and Sir Anthony Hungerford. Among the medieval memorials are two recumbent effigy tombs of Sir Nicholas de Valers (d.1300) and Lady Margaret de Valers (d.1320). The wooden fittings in the church, including the pulpit, reredos, and rood screen were designed in 1898 by Charles Ponting. Another screen in the north transept screen dates from 1900 and incorporating painted Jacobean panels displaying the coat of arms of Sir Anthony Hungerford. Today the church is a Grade I listed building. There is also a 20th-century stained-glass window in commemoration of 271 Sqn and the R.A.S.C who flew in the Dakota aircraft from the airfield for the Battle of Arnhem in 1944. The church holds an annual Arnhem Service in memory of the wartime operation. Another stained-glass is dedicated to the memory of Rev, Arthur Vaughan Williams who is buried in the churchyard.

The church featured in the 2017 Channel 4 television programme Penelope Keith's Hidden Villages.

Amenities
In addition to the church and the airfield, the village has a school which is more than 150 years old, a multi-use games area for younger residents, a tennis club, a village hall and a small village shop.

The Down Ampney estate, comprising almost all of the farm land in the parish, is now owned by the Co-operative Group.

title: Down Ampney


text: Category:New York (state) culture

title: Category:New York (state) culture


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mehdi Sebbane

Mehdi Sebbane was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was delete

Mehdi Sebbane
Vanity - CV, in French (although he lists English as one of his languages). This IP's only other edit to the English Wikipedia was to list himself as a "Famous Moroccan in the states & Canada" under births for 1980. SWAdair | Talk 11:28, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * This must qualify for speedy deletionm, or the rules are too lax. If it takes more time to delete obvious junk than it does to create it, then Wikipedia will slowly fill with junk. --Wetman 11:35, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * speedy delete --Gtabary 15:28, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete: Not a valid speedy deletion, the way the rules are written now, and things are only made worse by people who hate deletion on any grounds. Geogre 20:33, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. - Mustafaa 19:23, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like other '/delete' pages is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion or on the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.


text:
Talk:Analysis of variance

Incorrect formula table
I think the formula for SSBc is incorrect. There appears to be a bar missing above xcol and I believe the values (squared differences) are scaled by the # of points in the column. The degrees of freedom formula, dfW, also suggests that there are an equal number of rows and columns rather than specifying the degrees of freedom in terms of the # of columns and the # of samples (n-c). Perhaps both could be specified? — Preceding unsigned comment added by JimHokanson (talk • contribs) 15:21, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

"Fortunately, experience says that high order interactions are rare"
The above sentence is horribly unscientific (it is found in the subsection "ANOVA for multiple factors"), even though a reference is given. Experience with what? Clearly no one has gained experience with all possible topics in which an ANOVA may be used. The text of the reference is not easily accessed, so it is not possible to check under what conditions this "experience" is applicable. I have marked it with a  to signal that this claim needs to be modified. While it is relevant to the topic, the sentence as presented is false.

title: Talk:Analysis of variance


text:
Talk:Appellate procedure in the United States

Breaking the Term 'Appeal' into something meaningful and useful:
Other Editors - people who know far more about this than I do - have pointed out this Section maybe needs a general section and then needs breaking down into subsections based on Region and Forum, so laypeople can understand it...

To put that into context, my interest in this, as a layperson, is to discover if I can appeal a decision by a Magistrate to adjourn my Case for months on end, as the Order against me was an Ex-Parti Order and there is a 'No-delay Principle' with such Orders.

I also know a Judicial Review/Appeal can be taken against for example, a Health Authority if they make a decision that is contentious.

This Article is difficult to put into context/disentangle for these instances. There are probably loads of other instances also, stemming from a basic definition? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Downpatrickteacher (talk • contribs) 01:44, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Multiple Mergers
Many stubby articles out there could do well to be merged into this one. Manney 23:48, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't like the merger idea. Appeal is a very common, stand-alone term. I just went looking for it and found it. It is not easy to see how the article, it is supposed to be merged with, is identical or so closely related that the merger should proceed. I think it's a very bad idea. If it works, don't fix it. Achim 02:16, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

United States: standard of review
The sentence, "In cases where a judge rather than a jury decided issues of fact, an appellate court will apply an abuse of discretion standard of review", seems to be a sweeping generalization. Is there a particular source for this statement? I was under the impression (although I could be wrong) that the determination of the correct standard of review in an appellate case is a complex body of law. Until this point is clarified, I have decided to add a flag. 69.140.157.138 03:30, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that is right in a way. Findings of fact, whether made by a judge or jury, are subject to abuse of discretion review. There is a complex body of law on the subject, but that is really basic. Manney 00:02, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

You are right that that proper standard of review is a complex matter. In fact, in most cases, judicial decisions on factual determinations relating to the merits are reviewed under the "clearly erroneous" standard.

Hence the very problem. Courts will state that they are using the abuse of discretion standard to review legal conclusions, even though it is essentially de novo because it is an abuse of discretion to reach an incorrect legal conclusion. You can only safely say (*The only think you can say safely is) that appellate courts must generally defer to factual findings by the lower courts, and are not required to defer to legal conclusions of lower courts. (As always, there are exceptions) As far as trying to delimit the standards of review for all cases, that is pretty much impossible.

PS, you should get yourself an account. Mneumisi 18:20, 22 December 2006 (UTC) Malphesian (talk) 07:16, 8 August 2019 (UTC)PS, I made some grammatical corrections. Malphesian

1911 garbage
Hmmm... I don't like the merger idea. I think that the general term needs a separate entry which should also discuss (without getting into too much detail) the concept itself as well as types of appeals (e.g. by leave / by right). A link to appellate court or similar could come off of this page. Tobit

I agree. It does provide a solid description however, I just wanted to here from the original proponent. Francis Davey 16:06, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Bad idea. Appellate courts are an important and distinct part of jurisprudence in most court systems in the world and the name deserves its own page.

Definition of appeal
Looks wrong from my POV. First it uses the phrase "judicially cognizable" and I have absolutely no idea what it means (and I am a lawyer), so perhaps it could either be enlarged or explained. What would a non judicially cognizable judgment look like? Does the phrase add anything? Second, it assumes that one can only appeal final decisions, not so in my jurisdiction, so that needs to be changed to make it NPOV. Third, it would appear to encompass review, which is most certainly not an appeal (here anyway). Are reviews and appeals merged into the same notion in the US? Francis Davey 20:21, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

An automated Wikipedia link suggester has some possible wiki link suggestions for the Appeal article:

Notes: The article text has not been changed in any way; Some of these suggestions may be wrong, some may be right. Feedback: I like it, I hate it, Please don't link to — LinkBot 11:29, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Can link lower court: ...y, this means formally filing a notice of appeal with a lower court, indicating one's intention to take the matter to the next ...
 * Can link administrative law: ...atters by arbitrators, referees, masters, commissioners and administrative law judges in hearings and proceedings generally classed as [[a...

== In France, it is possible to appeal (appel) both on questions of law and facts. In addition, you may make a final appeal on questions of law, known as cassation. I understand that in some, perhaps all common law jurisdictions, appeals on questions of fact are not possible, only appeals on questions of law. Is that correct? David.Monniaux 18:43, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

 * No its not true here (England and Wales). It all depends. Its always possible to ask an appeal court to look at facts about a hearing below if there is an allegation of bias -- or if the court is reviewing its own decision. Eg, was the judge drunk/asleep? Other than that, there are no general rules about appeals, they are all particular statutory rules since appeals are not a common law notion. Most of our rules at lower tiers of the court system either permit appeals on facts, or complete re-hearings in certain circumstances. At higher levels it becomes much harder to do that. Francis Davey 20:59, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Merger fails to include the term as used in criminal law
No. The term is used in primary cases, without regard to appeal, the baic criminal law, at least in Canada, will use the term instead of accused or synonomous with it. The person making a call to the police is called the Complainant, and the person cited by the police in a warrant or in a criminal inestigatioon, or in court when charged, as a respondent. Merger would loose this meaning. --Mikerussell 19:07, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

General statement
I think the following is specific to certain countries (for instance, it's not true in France) and should be moved to the relevant national sections or articles:

"Generally speaking the appellate court examines the record of evidence presented in the trial court and the law that the lower court applied and decides whether that decision was legally sound or not. The appellate court will typically be deferential to the lower court's findings of fact (such as whether a defendant committed a particular act), unless clearly erroneous, and so will focus on the court's application of the law to those facts (such as whether the act found by the court to have occurred fits a legal definition at issue)."

Generally speaking, general statements should be avoided in topics which differ from one country to another (everything related to law or social sciences). I just removed from fr:Appel a sentence which contained the opposite bias.

Apokrif 16:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

That statement is certainly not true in Australia. In Australia an appeal court usually can review findings of fact with no bias in favour of the trial judge's findings and the only deference that the court will show to a factual finding is where it depends at least in part on the trial judge's assessment of a witness' credibility while giving evidence. 58.110.111.244 (talk) 23:25, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Other Countries
The current definition of Respondent is incomplete for non-US legal practice.

By way of example, the two parties to a divorce in the United Kingdom are the Petitioner and the Respondent. In the case of alleged adultery, the Petitioner can name the party with whom their spouse is alleged to have committed adultery. They become the co-respondent in the divorce.

As a result of this kind thing, simply merging Respondent (amongst other terms) into a general Appeal bucket will confuse rather than assist. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nigelx (talk • contribs) 09:48, 10 March 2007 (UTC).

I agree, but that is a general problem with wikipedia law articles. Put very bluntly, you don't know enough, and I bet no editor knows enough, to be able to write a decent article on "appeals" that works cross-jurisdiction. I and many other lawyers in my jurisdiction could write pretty good local articles, ditto those in other jurisdictions. I we did it that way and then abstracted from them some generality that might work. At the moment what happens is that someone writes a POV article (usually USA POV) and then we have to try tweaking it. The result is UGLY. The term "Respondent" is used in a lot of English law situations which aren't appeals (anyone responding to an application is a respondent for example). Don't you have applicants in the US? Who knows. Francis Davey 22:56, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention non-common law countries (e.g., most of the world), which are all different from one another as well as different from the common law. 213.208.214.206 (talk) 08:34, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I completely agree that this is a common problem with legal procedure articles on wiki. They are written by a US lawyer or law student who sets out the US law on the assumption that the principles described are of universal, or almost universal, application. There are many statements in this article that may be true for US appeals, or at least some US appeals, but which are plain wrong in many other jurisdictions and are not remotely of universal application. Articles like this could be made a lot better if the US-centric details were removed and a much more general and concise description of the concept of an appeal included. Then if anyone wanted to write an article on US appeals it could be in a specific subsection 58.110.111.244 (talk) 23:19, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Merges
Since the merge tags appear to have been here for months with no significant efforts, I'm about to have a go at the merges. See what you think when I'm finished. --Scott Davis Talk 13:19, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

 * Done now. Here's the result. --Scott Davis Talk 14:51, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

 * The problem with the article is that it's trying to cover the concept of appeal in the entire English-speaking world, while a lot of the things it says are limited in geographic scope but the article does not point that out. Therefore the article is likely to be confusing to a layperson. For example -- the term "appellee" is a purely American term but the article implies that it is used everywhere. The business about filing a notice of appeal with the court from which you are appealing is not universal either. Sentences like "And due to the double jeopardy principle, the state or prosecution may never appeal a jury or bench verdict" are not true for all countries. --Mathew5000 17:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

 * True, but having "appellee" and "respondent" both used as they are introduced here is better than the state they were where the article Appellee simply mentioned that they are also called respondent in some places. I'm happy for you to try to neutralise the language further, but I agreed that merging improved the articles more than keeping them separate could. --Scott Davis Talk 01:07, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

 * At the moment it is wrong to have "Respondent" point to this article. One can respond to all kinds of procedural situation other than an appeal. In my jurisdiction I suspect that only a small percentage of respondents are responding to appeals. The proportion has risen, but not by much. Francis Davey 23:08, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

 * Was there any consensus on merging Appellate review into this article? Bearian 20:41, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I say go for itMneumisi 13:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

approach to this article
Sorry if this is too blunt, but I don't like anything about this article as it currently stands. Let's start with the definition in the opening sentence: "An appeal is the act or fact of challenging a judicially cognizable and binding judgment to a higher judicial authority." What percentage of Wikipedia's audience is going to understand what that means? Moreover, that definition is not fully accurate. For one thing, you can sometimes bring an appeal from a non-binding judgment (such as a decision on a reference question). For another thing, not all appeals go to a "judicial authority" -- numerous administrative tribunals hear appeals too. See for example Ontario Municipal Board. Or as a university student, if a professor gives you an unfair grade on a final exam, you can often appeal that to a faculty committee. The definition of "appeal" needs to be broad enough to cover these cases. It also should be simple enough that twelve-year-olds can understand (so let's not use terms like "judicially cognizable"). My suggestion for a definition would be this: "In law, an appeal is a process for making a formal challenge to an official decision."

As for the rest of the article, it focuses way too much on the nitty gritty of appellate procedure and not enough on general history and philosophy. The basic question this article should answer is this: Why do almost all legal systems have an appeal process? Wouldn't it be much cheaper, both for litigants and for taxpayers, to just say that when a court makes a decision on your case, that decision is final? It is a serious question and there has been quite a bit written on it, particularly in the field of law and economics.

The article as written does not address the fundamental purposes of an appeal process.

Nor does the article discuss the history of the appeal process. Was it present in Roman law? If so, how has it evolved since then in England and various other jurisdictions?

As in all Wikipedia articles, we need to give some thought to who the likely audiences are that will come to this article, and how best to provide the information they are looking for in a way that they will understand. One audience is schoolchildren who know hardly anything about the legal system and want to get an idea of what an appeal is -- that audience is very poorly served by the article as written because it delves so quickly into technicalities. Another audience is laypersons who are involved (directly or indirectly) in litigation that has reached an appeal stage. For example, someone who was the victim of violent crime, where the perpetrator was convicted and is now appealing. Or the owner of a small business who was sued for breach of contract, lost at trial, and is now considering an appeal. I don't think the article as written will be very helpful to either of those people, because the details and even the terminology can vary so much between jurisdictions and this article does not do a good job of explaining what terminology and procedure is used in which jurisdictions. --Mathew5000 19:48, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I have to work on this for school. >:( —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)
 * Great - we look forward to seeing how you can improve the article. Good luck with your class. --Scott Davis Talk 13:57, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

 * The article is also badly POV because it assumes that appeals are always against judicial decisions which they may not be. In the United Kingdom the Asylum and Immigration Tribunal hears appeals from official decisions not judicial ones and that is not an uncommon variety of appeal in my jurisdiction. The problem is (as I say above) that in order to make this article accurate you have to hedge it around so much it is barely information. *sometimes* you need permission to appeal, *sometimes* you don't and sometimes there are other conditions. Sometimes the lower court gives permission, sometimes the upper, sometimes both and (for appeals as of right) sometimes neither. In some jurisdictions the prosecution can appeal sometimes (although mostly they can't) etc etc. All sorts of things are possible, which doesn't help anyone very much. Most law articles on wikipedia are in a dreadful state; are either misleading; uninformative or both. I tried for a while to make them better but found it almost impossible. The strong US domination being a highly negative factor. They key difficulty being that US lawyers and editors rarely mark their work as being of a particular jurisdiction, they mostly simply state it as a generality, I can then not easily improve an article since I don't know where they get their information from. I can't say in X jurisdiction this and Y jurisdiction that. I know very well what happens here since I practice as a lawyer (translating a complex situation for US readers) but I don't know what I am adding to. Francis Davey 23:06, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it's useless to have articles on very broad topics, like "appeal", whose meanings vary from one country to another, or even from one field of law to another one: these articles should only be disambiguation pages leading to national articles. We have the same problem on fr: with articles which, in general, are misleading because the contributor overgeneralizes what they know about a country (generally France) or a field of law (i.e. they write statements which are true in private or civilian law, but not in administrative or military law). The contributor should always write (in the article title, in a section title, or at the beginning of a sentence) which subdomain they address (e.g. if a contributors knows something about appeals in German administrative courts, s/he should write "In German administrative courts..." unless s/he is sure the same holds for all German courts or for all appeal proceedings in all countries (this is almost impossible to check, of course)). Another problem in legal topics is that names are often misleading so that you cannot even give a minimal explanation of the topic by defining each of its component words (e.g. supreme courts are not always highest courts, courts of first instance sometimes hear appeals) Apokrif 16:52, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Collateral Review -- removal
User:A.Z. has been removing a section written by another registered user without proper explanation. Can you please explain here? Francis Davey 17:00, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

NB: I don't think much of that section since it seems a little POV, or at least confusing, but that's no reason to rv. Francis Davey 17:05, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

 * See my response on my talk page. A.Z. 17:16, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Appeals process, duration, and cost questions
I was doing readings on the Anascape v. Nintendo lawsuit and it occurred to me that I have no real grasping on the nature of what happens after someone "appeals" the verdict. What is it that fuels the appeals process to continue on and on, and are there any statutes that govern fair duration or limits on proceedings such as this case? Murakumo-Elite (talk) 09:06, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Let's start again from scratch
Unfortunately this article symbolises everything that's wrong about legal article on Wikipedia. At first it started as a US-centric article, about US law but stated in general terms, then it got developed into a sort-of English-speaking-world centric article but without any real coordination. Now it's just a general mish-mash. I'm not even that sure how to remedy the problems, but might I suggest writing a general article from scratch. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 15:56, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree. It needs a rewrite.  Malke 2010 (talk) 04:23, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Needs a history section
It also needs a section on the history of appealing. What countries and legal system provided such a thing. When did the idea of appealing first start, etc. Ariel. (talk) 19:42, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Page moved
Just to note that this article has been moved to Appellate procedure in the United States from Appeal. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 10:14, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

"See also" section
Is there a reason the "See also" section in included within the main body of the article? If I am not mistaken this should be the first section "after" the main body. Otr500 (talk) 20:17, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that was bizarre. It had two see also sections for a week or so because I added one not seeing the one in the middle. I'm not sure if there was a specific reason, but I moved it to the normal place. Bali88 (talk) 04:11, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Non-federal collateral review
Most states have state-level postconviction/collateral review of criminal cases, usually by way of state habeas. See, e.g.,, IV. "A State-by-State Summary". Accordingly, without objection, I will remove the statement "The key distinguishing factor between direct and collateral appeals is that the former occurs in state courts, and the latter in federal courts." Thanks, Kevin ( aka L235 ·  t ·  c) 01:42, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

There have been no comments, let alone objections to the proposal to remove the "key distinguishing factor" statement. The statement is patently incorrect. I suggest that after two years it is time to actually remove it. /Bruce/ [aka Slasher] (talk) 16:27, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

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