text:
Talk:Akbar Rafsanjani

Commment
Technically Rafsanjani is not an Ayatollah. His official clerical title is that of 'Hojjat al-Islam,' which is a lower rank than Ayatollah. I believe his family owns the Khoshgovar beverage company (which is licensed by Coca-Cola), among many other large factories and businesses. The article may wish to state that he is one of the wealthiest men in the world, and theoretically has more power than the so-called 'Supreme Leader' Khamanei. He is also probably one of the most hated men in Iran. A very sinister character. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.138.106.98 (talk) 19:42, 19 December 2004 (UTC)

 * It would be nice if you could refrain from adding personal opinions to a public encycolopedia. --prashidi 02:12, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Akbar or Ali Akbar? That's the question!
His legal name in Akbar Hashemi Bahremani not Ali Akbar. I saw his birth certification in the Shargh Newspaper and I will publish that pic here soon. Please don't change his name. --Sina 12:03, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think it is still important to mention that he was widely (and wrongly) called Ali-Akbar! For example see the title for the news of his death on NY times:

In the page about the Iran Contra, there is a mention of a nephew of Rafsanjani called "Ali Hashemi Bahramani"... to me it seems that it is not his nephew, but he himself (and the long name has helped the confusion). MikeEcho (talk) 14:21, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

I learned that there was in fact a 25 yo nephew named Ali Hashemi Bahramani that appearanly played a role in Iran-Contra affair.MikeEcho (talk) 12:32, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

 * His legal name in Persian is Akbar, but he is often known by the nickname Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani.
 * According to the talk page on the Persian version of this article, he explained this in an interview, wherein he stated that despite most often being known by the nickname Ali Akbar, his legal name is simply Akbar. Unfortunately, I do not have access to this interview at this time. Samiollah1357 (talk) 15:08, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

"Akbar" and Hojjat ol-Islam
IRNA gives today his name as Akbar and his title as Hojjat ol-Islam. I do not think we can get much more authorative here I think any further changes need to be accompanied by evidence rather than being simply blind reverts. Further, someone deleted the whole paragraph about the 2000 elections. I doubt that the information is in any way under dispute.

Refdoc 16:01, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Political Stance
The article does not address exactly what the political positions of Rafsanjani are. It is stated that he is "consevative," but what does this mean in the context of Iranian politics? -- Prophet121 1 July 2005 15:42 (UTC)

Zionist lies and more lies
OK, so I am using the link that you yourself put in the article to "support" your Zionist lies. According to this site that you put in the article, (which is, by the way, too obviously a biased site) it says:
 * Hashemi Rafsanjani, head of an influential government council and president of Iran from 1989 to 1997, gave a speech on Dec. 14, 2001, that has been interpreted widely as both a signal that Iran wants nuclear weapons and a threat to use them against Israel. Describing the establishment of the Jewish state as the worst event in history.

But the follwoing which is not "interpreted widely" and rather is a direct quote from him appears just a few lines below the above "wide interpretation" and reads:

 * "because of religious and moral beliefs and commitments that the Koran has created for us, we cannot and will not pursue such weapons that destroy humanity."''

You and HKT are obviously trying to "help" promote the zionist lies about Iran's nuclear programme. What you people do not realize is that this overall strategy has actually helped both the Islamic regime as well as Iran's national unity tremendously, more than you can even imagine. You may win a few cheap media battles like this in the short term, but with this strategy, you are only helping your perceived enemy with more unity. As an Iranian, I can tell to all you Zionists and your Shabbath Goy Bush: Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.16.105.173 (talk) 14:06, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * What has been "interpreted widely" is that Iran shares his sentiments. He is quoted directly as calling for nuking Israel. And your "just a few lines below trick" was actually a quote from three years later (!), when he recanted in the face of the coming election. (P.S. Please sign your posts. You can do this by entering ~ after your post. Thanks). HKT 15:39, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Just like Ahmadinejad called for nuking Israel? You really need to study News for yourself and not look on sites such as the one mentioned above and you have got to stop watching Fox News and/or Al-Jazeera.

About Ahmadinejad, he never called for Israel to get wiped off the map. No such idiom ("wiped off the map") exists in Persian (Farsi). An Iranian official said: "How do you wipe a country off the map?" obviously backing up the fact that in Persian, there is no such idiom.

Also, what Ahmadinejad REALLY said was: "The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem must [vanish from] the page of time".

I think that this is a case of some idiot pulling an Ahmad-lie on Rafsanjani. Armyrifle 19:03, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Quote about nukes
a couple of points.

 * 1) Rafsanjani's words, interpreted literally, do not seem to mean what HKT says they mean. The words quoted are "If one day, the Islamic world is also equipped with weapons like those that Israel possesses now, then the imperialists' strategy will reach a standstill because the use of even one nuclear bomb inside Israel will destroy everything. However, it will only harm the Islamic world." Now, this clearly isn't showing friendly thoughts to Israel, but it's also not saying "Iran should get nuclear weapons, and then nuke Israel."  As far as I can gather, Rafsanjani is saying that if the Islamic world gets nuclear weapons, it should use the threat of nuking Israel as a way to get what it wants from the imperialists.  Later on, he says, "Therefore, in the future, the interests of colonialism and imperialism dictate whether Israel will survive or not."  I think this suggests that what he's really threatening is nuclear blackmail, not actually nuking Israel.  It could be interpreted that he wants to nuke Israel, but that's not what he's precisely saying.
 * 2) More importantly, putting this one quote into the article, with no context on Rafsanjani's broader political views at all - this statement is literally the only one in the entire article about his actual views - is just completely POV. If the article were to be expanded to deal more broadly with Rafsanjani's political outlook, it would be completely fine to discuss this speech there (although not in a way that just repeats right wing news outlets' interpretation of his words).  But as the article stands, it is completely unbalanced to just have one paragraph about one particularly inflammatory speech, without discussing at all the much more complicated issue of Rafsanjani's political position. john k 17:55, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

As an example, how balanced is it to mention this speech, but not Rafsanjani's remarks a few months earlier where he condemned the 9/11 attacks? Or the fact that he was seen as the middle of the road candidate in the recent Iranian elections, and ultimately was reluctantly supported by the reformists in the run-off? john k 17:58, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The quote has been interpreted that way in a number of sources, including articles in major newspapers. In addition, it seems to me that articles on Israeli politicians are regularly inundated with unflattering and out of context quotes of theirs (e.g. Ehud Barak), so this seems to be the standard.  If it's added under the "Quotes" section will you be o.k. with it? Jayjg (talk)  18:07, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

The quotes for Ehud Barak are equally stupid, and I've just removed them. Their presence is no defense for similar stupidity here. In terms of interpretation - again, the fact that something has been interpreted a particular way does not mean that we have the right to state that that interpretation is fact. Out of context quotations should generally be avoided. Until this article has a decent discussion of Rafsanjani's political views as a whole, there shouldn't be any mention of particular quotes. john k 18:21, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * "The use of even one nuclear bomb inside Israel will destroy everything. However, it will only harm the Islamic world." I've actually seen this translated as "...whereas it will merely damage the Islamic world." It seems to me that the most obvious interpretation of his statements is that he was actually suggesting nuking Israel. However, another interpretation is possible, the relevant section should be readded with that interpretation included. This story's extensive coverage (as well as the quote's sabre-rattling nature by any interpretation) makes it extremely notable, but I have no problem with the inclusion of an alternative interpretation of his statements. P.S. Arafat also condemned the 9/11 attacks in English and praised them in Arabic. Condemning those attacks was politically critical for nearly everyone. HKT 18:37, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * You are taking it out of context. He says "then the imperialists' strategy will reach a standstill because" the quote you make.  He is saying that getting nuclear weapons will change the balance of power in the middle east because the west will have to take this fact into account.  He is not specifically saying that a nuclear attack should definitely be made - just that the threat of such an attack will change the calculus in terms of western support for Israel.  Obviously, he's not ruling out such an attack either, but I don't think he's specifically calling for it. john k 20:37, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Honestly, I don't have a complete transcript of his speech. Could you provide me with a link to one? It would be quite edifying. (I don't at all mind finding that he didn't call for nuking Israel; on the contrary, I'd much rather have nobody wanting to nuke it!) Thank you. HKT 20:45, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * There's a transcription by the BBC available on Lexis-Nexis, but I assume you probably don't get Lexis-Nexis. I could email a copy of the article to you, if you'd like.  Personally, I think it's fairly clear that the speech isn't saying "The Islamic world needs to get a nuclear bomb so it can immediately nuke Israel."  It's fairly clear, I think, that Rafsanjani is thinking in terms of the political effects of the existence of a Muslim nuclear bomb on the west (presumably, Pakistan doesn't count as Muslim in this context).  I think it's equally obvious that Rafsanjani is also saying that the State of Israel should be destroyed, but I don't think it's at all clear that he means that this should be done by a nuclear attack - rather, the emphasis seems to be that the Arab world needs to do whatever it can to get the west to abandon Israel, so that it will be able to be defeated and a Palestinian state established in its place (and, presumably, the Jews of Israel driven forth into exile in Europe and America).  The threat of nuclear attack, Rafsanjani seems to be saying, given the inherent assymmatricality of the threat, might be enough to accomplish this.  I don't know that he's ruling out an actual nuclear attack, but I don't see that he's particularly calling for it. john k 20:51, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Your assessment seems likely in light of your transcription. I really would appreciate if you could e-mail it to me. Thank you very much. HKT 20:58, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I've received no e-mail from you. Your BBC source can not be used or considered valid if it cannot be linked, and I have no way of further assessing Rafsanjani's quote without additional sources. I believe that someone else readded the info, and, without your source, I must support his edit. HKT 20:59, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Sorry - this page got lost on my watchlist, and I forgot to check it. I'll find the article again and email it to you. john k 05:59, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Ok, I got your e-mail. Thanks, HKT 02:34, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, let's see how the Barak deletion stands; I suspect the quotes will be reverted back in soon enough. As well, that was the tip of the iceberg; similar things can be found either in the Anti-Arabism article or in Wikiquotes for David Ben-Gurion and Ariel Sharon among others (they used to be in the articles until they were moved to Wikiquotes). Jayjg (talk)  18:41, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * I don't really care about WikiQuotes - the point of that is to include quotations. The Barak quotes would be perfectly appropriate in his wikiquotes article, as would be the Rafsanjani one, or whatever.  The Anti-Arabism article is pretty bad, but that's a problem beyond just the quotes.  At any rate, once again, if we had a full discussion of Rafsanjani's political views in that article, a balanced discussion of this speech would definitely be in order.  But as it stands now, any discussion of that one incident, out of his entire political career, is going to unbalance the article by making it seem as though this is the most important part of it.  As to the 9/11 quote, I think the way Rafsanjani discussed the issue was sufficiently anti-American (most of his discussion was warnings to Americans about retaliating too hard, and complaining about an American double standard) that it is hard to say that this was just some sort of mushy statement for American consumption.  john k 20:37, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Can I also note: A New York Times article from May 2005 about Rafsanjani is nowhere near as reliable a source as a New York Times article from November 2001 about the original speech. I don't see as a news article referring briefly to something that happened four years ago is a terribly authoritative source. john k 17:23, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

2001 quote (again)
Okay, so as to prevent constant edit warring over this, I thought I'd present conditions under which I'd find mention of this quote acceptable.

1) It needs to be given some kind of contextualizing statement to start it off. It can't just be "during a sermon in 2001, Rafsanjani said."  It needs to be more along the lines of "Rafsanjani has a history of making statements that..." or something along those lines.  Otherwise it sticks out rather absurdly given the general lack of depth of the article

2) The gloss on his statements needs to be NPOV. It's fine to say that it was interpreted in the west as being a threat to use nuclear weapons against Israel if Iran got them.  It's not fine to say that this is what Rafsanjani said, because that is not what he said.  He was speaking hypothetically, and a little bit ambiguously.  I think that he was really discussing how nuclear weapons would alter the balance of power in the Middle East, and how this would give the Islamic World leverage to help them destroy Israel, rather than actually saying that Tel Aviv should be immediately nuked.  If an American politician during the Cold War had said something to the effect that the Soviets wouldn't dare launch an invasion of western Europe because they knew that the United States could utterly destroy them with nuclear weapons if they did so, would that count as a threat to nuke the Soviet Union? We need to be careful that we're saying. I think this is especially true because of the present-day implications of this statement. Of course, right now we are worried that Iran is trying to get nuclear weapons. A hysterical reading of Rafsanjani's statement is particularly significant in this context. We should be really cautious about interpreting a statement like this, and if we can't do it right, we shouldn't mention it at all. john k 15:43, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

 * Heraclius, you completely changed the meaning of that quote by inserting [having]. Words in square brackets can be used in quotes only where no meaning is changed. We're quoting the NYT, and that is exactly what the NYT says, and it counts as a reputable source for Wikipedia. Are you saying they got it wrong? SlimVirgin (talk) 16:34, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm not a member. So I guess you'll have to find another source.Heraclius 17:05, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

 * We're quoting the NYT and citing it. We don't need a link to it, but if you want to read the article, it takes seconds to register and it's free. Would you prefer to quote from some other source? SlimVirgin (talk) 17:09, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

 * The NYT article is not free - it is in their archives, and thus unavailable unless you pay for it. As to the quote, it seems to me that as it stands, it is unclear that we are quoting the Times - it might alternatively be a direct quote by Rafsanjani.  As to the NYT, it seems unnecessary to quote it when a translated transcription of Rafsanjani's speech itself is available on Lexis-Nexis.  I have quoted the relevant part of it on Jayjg's talk page.  At any rate, SV, could you please read my comments above and tell me what you think?  As I said above, I have no problem with saying that western media largely interpreted the speech as being a threat to nuke Israel, if indeed they did do that.  I think looking at the speech itself, it doesn't seem at all obvious that this is what he was saying, and we should not rely on what the NYT says about a statement that is readily available to be read in full. john k 17:21, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Hi John, the NYT article doesn't have to be paid for. I'm not a paying subscriber and I was able to access it, and anyway there's no requirement to provide links: a citation is enough (though a link is better, of course). The reason I picked on the NYT is that it's a mainstream, reputable source and this quote is being disputed, so we have to stick to that type of source. But if you have an equally reputable one, by all means replace it.

Regarding your point about the speech and the context: I haven't read the whole speech, but I'll do it now. As for providing a political context, I agree it's important, but I'd say it should be attributed throughout to others - i.e. this is what the NYT said he said, this is what X said he said, and this is the context in which Y interpreted it - so that we're not presenting any interpretation as the correct one. You wrote above that we have to be careful what we say, and you're right, but then so does Rafsanjani, and so does the New York Times. Give me a few minutes to read the whole speech first and I'll post back. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:36, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

 * There's a BBC Monitoring Service translation here, which should be reliable.

 * It says:

"If one day ... Of course, that is very important. If one day, the Islamic world is also equipped with weapons like those that Israel possesses now, then the imperialists' strategy will reach a standstill because the use of even one nuclear bomb inside Israel will destroy everything. However, it will only harm the Islamic world. It is not irrational to contemplate such an eventuality. Of course, you can see that the Americans have kept their eyes peeled and they are carefully looking for even the slightest hint that technological advances are being made by an independent Islamic country. If an independent Islamic country is thinking about acquiring other kinds of weaponry, then they will do their utmost to prevent it from acquiring them. Well, that is something that almost the entire world is discussing right now."

 * We could use this instead of the NYT. It's hard to be sure what he means. I don't see this as a direct threat to attack Israel, but he's definitely not ruling it out either. My understanding of his reference to the Islamic world is: although the bomb would destroy Israel, it would only damage neighboring countries, and therefore there's nothing irrational (self-destructive) about considering it. SlimVirgin (talk) 17:52, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

 * John and Heraclius, look at it now and see what you think. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:40, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, your interpretation of it here seems to be similar to mine - not a direct threat to attack, but not ruling it out. I do think that it's significant that he's talking in terms of western calculations - that is, that if Muslims get the bomb, the west will have to change the way it deals with the middle east because of the asymmetricality he brings up. At any rate, I still don't like the way it's referred to in the article. We can't just plop the quote down - including some context is really important here. We should make some effort to a) paraphrase the quote in some manner; and b) explain why it's significant enough to be included in the article, how it fits in with Rafsanjani's larger role, or whatever. As to wikipedia's responsibility to be cautious, as opposed to that of the NYT and Rafsanjani's, well, sure, but none of us has any control over what the NYT and Rafsanjani say, while we do have control over what wikipedia says about it. john k 20:57, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

 * The point he seems to be making about the West in the rest of the speech is that at some point he hopes the West will regard the cost of protecting Israel as too high, and that the cost will escalate, certainly in terms of tension, if Iran or any Arab country acquires nuclear weapons.

 * I've moved the quote to its own section, so that it's not stuck in the middle of two unrelated paragraphs. I agree that it would be good to provide context, though I'd caution against paraphrasing the quote. I'd suggest letting it speak for itself, and then perhaps trying to find some newspaper articles about the speech, and whether it was regarded as important, and if so, why. SlimVirgin (talk) 21:09, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

 * Haha, you people have got to stop watching Larry King show. Here is the complete translation of what he said:”” You know what? I just changed my mind. Whatever you say. Democracy wins!

Stepped down willingly
The article says that R. is "the first president of Iran who has stepped down willingly".

I don't think that's very accurate. As far as I know, he couldn't run for a third consevutive turn and so was legally bound to step down. He only willingly obeyed the law.

Furthermore, I think his predecessor Khamenei also stepped down willingly - at least as willingly as R. Or was Khamenai obliged to accept his appointment to Supreme Leader?

Str1977 15:40, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Context
Can anyone put any more context into the intro to that quote? The section is titled "relations with the west." I don't see how we can pretend that this topic is discussed by putting in, practically without any context at all, a single quote from a single speech, with no explanation. john k 23:25, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

 * John, feel free to change the header, or move it back if you prefer. My aim in moving it to its own section was simply that it didn't seem to fit well in the other sections, and I wasn't sure what to call it. Nuclear threat seemed too provocative. If I have time over the next week or so, I might be able to add a few sentences of context, but I can't promise. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:12, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

Dr. Rafsanjani I presume
What is the source that Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani has a PhD in Sociology from Berkeley? I checked the Sociology Department home page, where PhD Alumni are listed, and his name does not show.

Neither does the UC Berkeley library catalog have a thesis written by him (since PhD thesis are supposed to be there)

Also did he ever live in the US?

--132.77.4.129 11:37, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

sections on policies needs to be expanded
This article clearly lacks coverage of Rafsanjani's economic policies, science policies and foreign policy. --Mitso Bel20:01, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment
I would like you to see this and write it in the page cause my english is very pour:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/25/AR2006102501231.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.82.88.94 (talk) 00:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Calling for his arrest
I think there should be a mention of his wanted arrest by the Argentine government for the AMIA Bombing. Check and. Gadig 23:12, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * some day, it would be useful to start an article on Jewish-Argentine Mutual Association as it was the target according to this article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.24.112.56 (talk) 12:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It already exists. Check Asociación Mutual Israelita Argentina. Gadig 15:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. It should be a mention of his wanted arrest bye de Argentine government. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.117.204.152 (talk) Revision as of 17:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

censorship of Argentine prosecutor's religion
First of all, how dare you give yourself the authority to decide what is and isn't relevant on Wikipedia. You are nothing more than someone with enough free time to spend hours a day censoring articles. You do not have the authority you gave yourself.

Second, in case you have been in a cave, there is currently a global dispute between Iranians and Jewish people. The prosecutor's religion could have very likely played a role in his discretionary decision. Even if it didn't play a role, there is no need to censor that information. I don't want to waste my time disputing this with you further. Please call a responsible Wikipedia moderator. --75.17.183.177 08:02, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

 * More copy and paste games.
 * This may come as a surprise to people familiar with my work on Wikipedia, but I support the publishing of Alberto Nisman's religion. It is cited and I have no reason to challenge the reliability of the source or accuracy of the statement. On the other hand, to ensure NPOV, if we include information about one of the prosecuter's religion, we must include information about all of the prosecuters' religions. The entire statement from "The Jewish Week" that 75.17.183.177 refers to reads: "Nisman, who is Jewish, and [Marcelo Martinez] Burgos, who isn’t, oversee a staff of some 45 people ...."[17] If we do not include the religion of Burgos and the fact that 45 people work for them (and let's be honest, most of those people are probably Roman Catholic), we would be distoring the truth slightly implying that only a Jew would come to the conclusion that Hezbollah is responsible for the AMIA bombing, or, in the words of 75.17.183.177, that "a Jewish person in authority might use his discretionary power to target Muslims and Iranians."
 * P.S. Mr. 75.17.183.177, am I correct in assuming that you believe in a tangible link between Hezbollah and "Iranians?" :) --GHcool 08:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:AMIA_Bombing"
 * I'm only talking on the Hezbollah page on this topic, from now on. --75.17.183.177 09:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I also suggested confining this discussion to Talk:Hezbollah. As I said, Wikipedia is not The Jewish Week to tell its readers at every stop who is Jewish and who is not. Beit Or 09:53, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I made the following entry in Wikipedia's request for unprotection page.

There has been an endless edit war between pro-Israeli censors and other users regarding disclosure of the fact that an Argentine prosecutor, who filed charges against various Muslims for a 12 year old event, is Jewish. I think this is relevant information because it may indicate that the prosecutor's discretionary decision was motivated by his religion. As anyone knows, the world is currently embroiled in a war between Muslims and Jews. Knowing the religious affiliation of a person can be very important to understanding why he did what he did. Unfortunately, a group of pro-Israel censors (their affiliation is clear from their edit history) refuses to allows the publication of the fact that the prosecutor is Jewish, even though it is well cited [2]. First they claimed it was irrelevant. They gave themselves, and not the readers, the authority to decide what is and isn't relevant. Then they claimed that he wasn't the prosecutor and was only working as part of a team. A quick google search of Alberto Nisman [3] reveals that he is the lead prosecutor. He runs the team and he is the sole prosecutor listed in all of the mainstream articles. Then they claimed that Jewish week isn't a respectable news source. They had the nerve to attack the reporter's (Larry Luxner) journalism! Then one of the pro-Israeli censors accused me of racism and banned my IP, simply for daring to suggest that a Jewish person's religion might have something to do with the discretionary decisions he makes towards Muslims! Their actions have now reached the height of intellectual dishonesty. Rather than disclose the information and let readers decide if it's relevant, they want to hide it, and deny the readers the ability to think for themselves. Please correct the articles under "hezbollah", "AMIA bombing" and "Rafsanjani" to add four simple words disclosing the fact that the lead prosecutor is Jewish. Please keep wikipedia as an objective source of information, and not a tool controlled by a mob of pro-Israel censors.." Although pro-Israeli censors seemingly dominate wikipedia (I seriously wonder if some of them are paid), they do not dominate the world and Wikipedia will be less relevant if it only presents facts they like. Alternatively, please set up an Alberto Nisman article and provide a biography of his life and accomplishments, and like every other biography article, disclose his religion. Your prompt and fair attention to this matter is appreciated. Footnote - The pro-Israeli censors are listed below. Their affiliation is clear from their edit history and user pages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Isarig http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Humus_sapiens http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:GHcool http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Amoruso http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Moshe_Constantine_Hassan_Al-Silverburg --75.5.1.216 18:43, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

 * Yawn ... It looks like 75.5.1.216's request was declined, but let's get the order of events clear:

--GHcool 19:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) 75.17.183.177 accused well-meaning Wikipedias of censorship.
 * 2) Those Wikipedians challenged the relevance of Nisman's religion to the article on Hezbollah.
 * 3) 75.17.183.177 argued that Nisman's religion may have swayed him to "target Muslims and Iranians" because "there is currently a global dispute between Iranians and Jewish people."
 * I, GHcool, offered a fair, NPOV compromise to the problem: we should inform the public on Nisman's religion if and only if we include the religious affiliations of the other prosecuters as well.
 * 1) 75.17.183.177 argued that Nisman was the lead prosecuter and implied that therefore his religion is more important to the article than all of the other prosecuters' religions.
 * 2) SlimVirgin, a neutral Wikipedian, agreed with Beit Or other like minds that Nisman's religion is irrelevent to the article on Hezbollah. She suggested that 75.17.183.177 find a "reliable source who discusses it and argues that it's relevant (but even then we'd have to be careful)."
 * 3) 75.17.183.177 misunderstood (intentionally or unintentionally) SlimVirgin's suggestion to mean that his source that told Nisman's religion, "The Jewish Week," was an unreliable source.
 * 4) 75.17.183.177 filed a complaint with the folks at the Wikipedia unprotection page.
 * 5) That complaint was rejected. Long live NPOV.

 * I made a statement in the arbitration complaint against your mob. I was not surprised that someone had previously filed a complaint against you. I also thank God that my existence is not so devious that I have to spend my days censoring information. Enjoy your misery as your efforts are largely futile. The real world thinks for themselves. --75.5.2.227 20:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

 * That's funny. I don't see any complaint against me on that page.
 * P.S. Why do you keep copying and pasting everywhere? Can't you just talk on the Hezbollah page like you said you would?--GHcool 20:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, my arbitration request was deleted. User Jayjg (his edit history is replete with pro-Israel wikipedia censorship) deemed the addition of Nisman's religion racist and banned me. Further, user Thatcher131 deemed that since I had been banned, I would not be given an arbitration request. So now it is impossible to even get a hearing on whether this information should be included. This whole affair is really beyond sad and is an indication that pro-Israeli censors are not interested in truth, but are rather interested in imposing their will. Having now dealt with you first hand, I am no longer confused as to why most of the civilized world holds a negative view of Israel and Israelis. May fate continue to justly bring misery to your oppressive lives, and may you waste your weeks futilely attempting to control people's thoughts. I can think of no better prison for you. --75.28.17.156 21:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Pursued good foreign relations?
Considering many of the foreign relations problems that plagued his administration, this section seems strange. He went so far as to attempt to prevent the Azerbaijan from separating from the USSR, which severely strained relations between Iran and Azerbaijan, a legacy which remains today. metaspheres 08:58, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I have added citations to the statements made in the article regarding Rafsanjani's foreign relations. A quick search reveals that the two works I cited are also accessible through Google Books if anyone feels a need to check, although I don't know whether those particular pages are available for viewing. Cyril Washbrook (talk) 00:28, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Dispute about Ayatollah
If I am not mistaken, his title as "Ayatollah" is disputed and recognized by only some marjas, and so is not in widespread acceptance. Can anyone help with sources for this? Khodavand 23:33, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

pronounciation
can we get an ogg for this? see example at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad Towsonu2003 19:30, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Yet another terrible article about Iranian figures
Why is there nothing about his life and career before 1989? Wikipedia articles on Iranian leaders are all horrible. john k (talk) 18:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The quality of Wikipedia articles is to a significant extent related to the willingness of contributors to develop material through writing and research. If you feel that you have knowledge or research that would improve the article, you can assist by incorporating any contributions that you might have into this article. Cyril Washbrook (talk) 03:56, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Hashemi Rafsanjani Resigned from Assembly of Experts and Expediency Council?
Dubai-based news agency Al-Arabiya reported on 13 June 2009 that Rafsanjani resigned from both his position as Chairman of the Assembly of Experts and head of the Expediency Council. The link can be found here: http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/06/13/75853.html I am looking for independent confirmations of this report, but I haven't been able to find any from independent media, Iran PressTV, or Iran IRIB. It probably doesn't help that I can't read Farsi, so I'm looking for help in confirming this report. Obviously I would not make an edit to the article until Al-Arabiya's assertion can be confirmed by at least one other reputable source (in this case, I would certainly say Iran's state news agencies qualify as "reputable") BostonFenian (talk) 09:21, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

This article is extremely weak.
It includes a melange of charges and random statements, some of which may be true, but has next to no facts about his background and career. Nothing about his clerical education and practice, or what he did before and during the Islamic Revolution, or his relationship with Khomeini, or how he became a leader of the Revolution (i.e. Chairman of the Majlis), or how he was elected President. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rrostrom (talk • contribs) 23:43, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Per a previous comment: the quality of Wikipedia articles is to a significant extent related to the willingness of contributors to develop material through writing and research. If you feel that you have knowledge or research that would improve the article, you can assist by incorporating any contributions that you might have into this article. Cyril Washbrook (talk) 12:49, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Citation needed?
I was amused when fact checking to find this article cites the Encyclopedia Britanica site Biography.com (citation #28). However, that link is broken, and the current article url is http://www.biography.com/articles/Hashemi-Rafsanjani-37239. And, further, the article there does not support the statements in sentence. - Amgine (talk) 02:57, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Richest person in Iran
I think that this claim in the intro section is a violation of BLP. What do you think? (Personaly I think that this is a false claim.)Farhikht (talk) 21:44, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Position on Assad Regime using Poison Gas
Media reports (circa 4th Sept. 2013) claim that Rafsanjani affirms that the Assad Government was using poison gas on its own people - though it is unclear whether he is referring to the sarin gas attack in Damascus during late August which killed about 500 people. This is a request for those in the know to address this issue as evidence comes out about his actual position, since such a reported position contradicts the official Iranian Government position. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.145.8 (talk) 16:06, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

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 * Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei and President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani 02.jpg

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Economy failure
During his presidency economy was failing. Why? 2.191.165.207 (talk) 20:46, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Hashemite?
Is his descent Hashemite or not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.144.246.65 (talk) 17:50, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Change article name to "Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani"
In Western sources, he's usually referred to as "Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani", "Hashemi Rafsanjani", and 'Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani".

In Persian sources, he's almost unanimously known as "Hashemi Rafsanjani".

On Wikipedia, his relatives are all named "[Name] Hashemi Rafsanjani" and his funeral page uses the aforementioned style. His Persian page uses this styling too.

I was going to make this change without making a talk topic but would like to get your thoughts. @TDKR Chicago 101 AryanamManifest (talk) 11:35, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Akbar Rafsanjani


text:
Talk:Renaud de Courtenay

Untitled
Obviously somebody's ancestor eh. Why is he in Wikipedia but my ancestors aren't? --Wetman 19:43, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Genealogical Corrections
There are actually two Rrenaud de Courtenays, father and son. The father died in 1190. It is the son who died September 27, 1194 and who was the father of Robert de Courtenay. The father married first Helvis du Donjon and Corbeil and second Maud FitzEdith. The son was born of the father's first marriage. He married at his father's request, Hawise de Curci, daughter of William de Curci. Maud and Hawise had the same mother, Maud d'Avranches, and were thus half sisters. The Wikipedia page on the Feudal Barony of Oakehampton explains the structure of this family in detail.

ChuckRFord (talk) 23:08, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Renaud de Courtenay


text:
Danse macabre (Saint-Saëns)

Danse macabre, Op. 40, is a symphonic poem for orchestra, written in 1874 by the French composer Camille Saint-Saëns. It premiered 24 January 1875. It is in the key of G minor. It started out in 1872 as an art song for voice and piano with a French text by the poet Henri Cazalis, based on the play Danza macàbra by Camillo Antona-Traversi. In 1874, the composer expanded and reworked the piece into a symphonic poem, replacing the vocal line with a solo violin part.

Analysis
According to legend, Death appears at midnight every year on Halloween. Death calls forth the dead from their graves to dance for him while he plays his fiddle (here represented by a solo violin). His skeletons dance for him until the cockerel crows at dawn, when they must return to their graves until the next year.

The piece opens with a harp playing a single note, D, twelve times (the twelve strokes of midnight) which is accompanied by soft chords from the string section. The solo violin enters playing the tritone, which was known as the diabolus in musica ("the Devil in music") during the Medieval and Baroque eras, consisting of an A and an E♭—in an example of scordatura tuning, the violinist's E string has actually been tuned down to an E♭ to create the dissonant tritone.

 * Orchesterwerke Romantik Themen.pdf

The first theme is heard on a solo flute, followed by the second theme, a descending scale on the solo violin which is accompanied by soft chords from the string section. The first and second themes, or fragments of them, are then heard throughout the various sections of the orchestra. The piece becomes more energetic and at its midpoint, right after a contrapuntal section based on the second theme, there is a direct quote played by the woodwinds of Dies irae, a Gregorian chant from the Requiem that is melodically related to the work's second theme. The Dies irae is presented unusually in a major key. After this section the piece returns to the first and second themes and climaxes with the full orchestra playing very strong dynamics. Then there is an abrupt break in the texture and the coda represents the dawn breaking (a cockerel's crow, played by the oboe) and the skeletons returning to their graves.

The piece makes particular use of the xylophone to imitate the sounds of rattling bones. Saint-Saëns uses a similar motif in the Fossils movement of The Carnival of the Animals.

The progression and melody of the minor waltz are similar to the jibes (e.g. "their sweethearts all are dead") of the Sailors' Chorus in "Helmsman/Steersman, Leave Your Watch," which begins the third act of Wagner's earlier opera, "The Flying Dutchman".

Instrumentation
Danse macabre is scored for an obbligato violin and an orchestra consisting of one piccolo, two flutes, two oboes, two clarinets in B♭, two bassoons; four horns in G and D, two trumpets in D, three trombones, one tuba; a percussion section that includes timpani, xylophone, bass drum, cymbals and triangle; one harp and strings.

Reception
When Danse macabre was first performed on January 24, 1875 it was not well received and caused widespread feelings of anxiety. The 21st century scholar, Roger Nichols, mentions adverse reaction to "the deformed Dies irae plainsong", the "horrible screeching from solo violin", the use of a xylophone, and "the hypnotic repetitions", in which Nichols hears a pre-echo of Ravel's Boléro.

It has grown to be considered one of Saint-Saëns' masterpieces, widely regarded and reproduced in both high and popular culture.

Transcriptions
Shortly after the premiere, the piece was transcribed into a piano solo arrangement by Franz Liszt (S.555), a good friend of Saint-Saëns. Next to countless other piano solo transcriptions, Ernest Guiraud wrote a version for piano four hands and Saint-Saëns himself wrote a version for two pianos, and in 1877 also a version for violin and piano. In 1942, Vladimir Horowitz made extensive changes to the Liszt transcription. This version is played most often today.

There is an arrangement for Pierrot ensemble (flute, clarinet, violin, cello, piano) by Tim Mulleman, and an organ transcription by Edwin Lemare. Greg Anderson created a version for two pianos, two percussionists and violin, which he titled Danse Macbre Baccanale.

Usage

 * This piece is played in Crowley's car as Aziraphale drives it from London to Edinburgh in Season 2, Episode 3 of the television show Good Omens.
 * This piece can be heard in the play performed at the end of the movie Shrek The Third.
 * The piece was later used in dance performances, including those of Anna Pavlova.
 * The piece is played offstage during the first act of Henrik Ibsen's 1896 play John Gabriel Borkman.
 * The piece was used for the trailer of 1922 Swedish-Danish silent horror film Häxan.
 * The piece is used as a recurring ironic motif in Jean Renoir's 1939 film The Rules of the Game (La Règle du Jeu),
 * The music was heard in a 2002 Disney animated film Mickey's House of Villains and the 1999 Mickey Mouse Works episode titled Hansel and Gretel, starring Mickey Mouse & Minnie Mouse as the titular duo.
 * An adaptation of the piece is used as the theme music for Jonathan Creek, a mystery crime series on British television.
 * The piece is used in the animated television series Modern Toss as the theme tune for the character Mr. Tourette – Master Signwriter.
 * The piece is used in the Dutch theme park Efteling in the attraction Haunted Castle and its currently in-development successor Danse Macabre.
 * It can be heard in Alone in the Dark after setting the record on the Gramophone in the Dance Hall.
 * A portion of the piece can be heard in the 1993 western film Tombstone during the performance of the stage version of Faust.
 * A synthesized version of the piece is used in the soundtrack for the anime television series Dimension W.
 * In Neil Gaiman's novel The Graveyard Book the characters dance the "Macabray." In the audiobook, Danse macabre is played between chapters.
 * The piece is also referenced in Neil Gaiman's book American Gods.
 * American figure skater Timothy Goebel performed his short program to this piece during the 2001-02 season, including at the 2002 Winter Olympics, where he won the bronze medal.
 * Korean figure skater Yuna Kim used the piece as her short program music in 2008-2009 season.
 * The piece is used in several instances during the 2011 Grimm episode "Danse Macabre", which is named after the piece.
 * The 2011 film Hugo features the piece during a brief scene showing the history of early films.
 * The piece is used as the ending theme of the Nickelodeon series Deadtime Stories.
 * A looped part of the piece can be purchased as a vehicle horn in the 2013 video game Grand Theft Auto Online, only during Halloween event weeks.
 * The piece can be heard during the New Year's Eve festivities in the 2014 gothic horror film, Stonehearst Asylum.
 * The piece is used in the 2014 production "Immortal" by The Cavaliers Drum and Bugle Corps.
 * The piece is played in the Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode "Hush", in which the character Rupert Giles plays the song while describing the episode's villains, the Gentlemen.
 * The piece is arranged in multiple levels of The End is Nigh, such as "The End" and "Mortaman".
 * The piece is used in the opening of Season 2 Episode 8 of the USA original, Mr. Robot.
 * The piece is used in multiple episodes of the television series What We Do in the Shadows.
 * The piece is used as a track in the Napoleonic Wars expansion pack for the game Mount & Blade: Warband by TaleWorlds Entertainment.
 * The piece is used in the first episode of Don't F**k With Cats: Hunting an Internet Killer.
 * The piece is used as the main theme for Ratched.
 * This piece is used in the soundtrack of the video game Forza Horizon 5.

title: Danse macabre (Saint-Saëns)


text:
Totentanz (Liszt)

Totentanz (Dance of the Dead): Paraphrase on Dies irae, S.126, is the name of a work for solo piano and orchestra by Franz Liszt notable for being based on the Gregorian plainchant melody Dies irae as well as for stylistic innovations. It was first planned in 1838, completed and published in 1849, and revised in 1853 and 1859.

Obsession with death

Some of the titles of Liszt’s pieces, such as Totentanz, Funérailles, La lugubre gondola and Pensée des morts, show the composer's fascination with death. In the young Liszt we can already observe manifestations of his obsession with death, with religion, and with heaven and hell. According to Alan Walker, Liszt frequented Parisian "hospitals, gambling casinos and asylums" in the early 1830s, and he even went down into prison dungeons in order to see those condemned to die.

Sources of inspiration

In the Romantic age, due to a fascination with everything Medieval, the aspect of fantastic or grotesquely macabre irony often replaced the original moral intent. A musical example of such irony can be found in the last movement of the Symphonie fantastique by Hector Berlioz which quotes the medieval (Gregorian) Dies Irae (Day of Judgment) melody in a shockingly modernistic manner. In 1830 Liszt attended the first performance of the symphony and was struck by its powerful originality. Liszt's Totentanz (Dance of Death), a set of variations for piano and orchestra, also paraphrases the Dies Irae plainsong.

Another source of inspiration for the young Liszt was the famous fresco "Triumph of Death" by Francesco Traini (at Liszt's time attributed to Andrea Orcagna and today also to Buonamico Buffalmacco) in the Campo Santo, Pisa. Liszt had eloped to Italy with his mistress, the Countess d’Agoult, and in 1838 he visited Pisa. Only ten years later, Liszt's first sketches materialized into a complete version of his Totentanz. Revisions followed in 1853 and 1859, and its final form was first performed at The Hague on 15 April 1865 by Liszt's student Hans von Bülow, to whom the work is dedicated.

Stylistic innovations

Since it is based on Gregorian material, Liszt's Totentanz contains Medieval sounding passages with canonic counterpoint, but by far the most innovative aspect of the scoring is the shockingly modernistic, even percussive, nature of the piano part. The opening comes surprisingly close to the introduction in Bartók's Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion, a work composed almost a hundred years later. This may be no coincidence since Bartók frequently performed Liszt's Totentanz. Other modernistic features are the toccata like sections where the pianist's repeated notes beat with diabolic intensity and special sound effects in the orchestra—for example, the col legno in the strings sound like shuddering or clanking bones. Richard Pohl (an early biographer) notes, "Every variation discloses some new character—the earnest man, the flighty youth, the scornful doubter, the prayerful monk, the daring soldier, the tender maiden, the playful child."

Extant versions
Like most Liszt pieces, a number of versions exist. Next to Liszt's first version of the Totentanz a second De Profundis version was prepared from Liszt's manuscript sources by Ferruccio Busoni (1919). The standard version is the final and third version of the piece (1859). Liszt also wrote versions for two pianos (S.652) and solo piano (S.525). Edited by Emil von Sauer, the original edition for two pianos, however, merely incorporated the solo part of Liszt's rendering for piano and orchestra, with a transcription of the orchestral accompaniment in the second piano. Dr. Andrey Kasparov has since re-imagined this setting as a work for piano duo. It shows to great effect the breadth of the Totentanz, when distributed evenly between two performers.

Stephen Tharp has transcribed the work for solo organ.

Notable performers
Besides the performances by Hans von Bülow, Béla Bartók, Sergei Rachmaninoff and Ferruccio Busoni, performances of historic significance include those of the Liszt student José Vianna da Motta (1945 – Port Nat S IPL 108), as well as György Cziffra (EMI 74012 2), Claudio Arrau, Jorge Bolet (Decca), Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli (1961 – Arkadia HP 507.1; 1962 – Memoria 999-001), Michel Béroff (EMI Classics), Byron Janis (RCA), Martha Argerich, Krystian Zimerman (Deutsche Grammophon), Arnaldo Cohen (Naxos and BIS), Raymond Lewenthal, and Enrico Pace at the Second International Franz Liszt Piano Competition in 1989.

title: Totentanz (Liszt)


text:
Margot James

Margot Cathleen James (born 28 August 1957) is a British politician who served as Minister of State for Digital and Creative Industries from 2018 to 2019. She was Member of Parliament (MP) for Stourbridge from 2010 to 2019. Elected as a Conservative, she had the whip removed in September 2019 and, after having the whip restored, stood down as an MP prior to the upcoming general election.

Early life
The younger daughter of a self-made businessman, James was born in Coventry. Educated privately in Leamington Spa, she then attended the sixth form at Millfield School in Street, Somerset. James is a graduate of the London School of Economics (LSE) with a degree in Economics and Government.

James joined the Conservative Party aged 17, and chaired the LSE Conservative Association. During her studies, she acted as a researcher for MP Sir Anthony Durant, and after graduation spent a gap year working in the press office of Conservative Central Office.

Professional career
James worked in sales and marketing for her father's business, Maurice James Industries (MJI), a haulage, waste management, and property group based around Birmingham. After working for a consulting firm, in 1986 she co-founded Shire Health Group, a public relations and clinical trials organisation. Shire Health was voted "Consultancy of the Year" three times in the Communiqué Awards for 1998, 1999 and 2001, while James was voted Communicator of the Year in 1997. The company was sold to WPP Group in 2004, with James appointed Head of European Healthcare for WPP subsidiary Ogilvy & Mather.

Political career
James had resigned from the Conservative Party after Margaret Thatcher was ousted as Prime Minister. She rejoined the Conservative Party early in 2003.

At the May 2005 general election, she was the Conservative candidate for the Holborn and St. Pancras constituency; James was the first ever openly lesbian Conservative candidate to stand in a British general election. She came third behind the sitting MP, Labour's Frank Dobson, and the Liberal Democrat candidate Jill Fraser.

In May 2006, James was elected a local councillor for the Brompton ward of Kensington & Chelsea, becoming one of the Conservative Party's few "out" lesbian office holders. She resigned from the council in 2008.

James was placed on the "A-List" of Conservative Party parliamentary candidates ahead of the 2010 general election, and was selected as the candidate for the marginal Labour-held constituency of Stourbridge, from where she was elected. This made her the first openly lesbian MP in the Conservative Party, second "out" lesbian in the House of Commons, after Angela Eagle, and the first to have come out before her election. In her maiden speech she paid tribute to Stourbridge's history of glass making.

She was the Parliamentary Private Secretary to Stephen Green, Baron Green of Hurstpierpoint, during his period as Minister for Trade and Investment from 2011 to 2013. From 2014 to 2015, James served as Parliamentary Private Secretary to William Hague, the then Leader of the House of Commons.

In January 2016, the Labour Party unsuccessfully proposed an amendment in Parliament that would have required private landlords to make their homes "fit for human habitation". According to Parliament's register of interests, James was one of 72 Conservative MPs who voted against the amendment who personally derived an income from renting out property. The Conservative Government had responded to the amendment that they believed homes should be fit for human habitation but did not want to pass the new law that would explicitly require it.

James was opposed to leaving the European Union prior to the 2016 referendum.

James was made Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Small Business, Consumers and Corporate Responsibility at the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy by Theresa May, in her first ministry in July 2016.

James served as Minister of State for Digital and the Creative Industries from 9 January 2018, resigning on 18 July 2019 to vote against the Government on an amendment; rebelling in an attempt to prevent the prorogation of Parliament which could have been used to force through a no-deal Brexit.

James endorsed Rory Stewart during the 2019 Conservative leadership election.

James had the Conservative whip removed on 3 September 2019. On 29 October 2019, she was one of ten Conservative MPs to have the whip restored, but announced on 3 November her intention to stand down as an MP at the 2019 general election, following disagreements with her local party.

Other activities
James served on the board of Parkside NHS Trust, and worked as a Mental Health Manager. She spent ten years as a trustee of ABANTU, an African women's charity, during which time she trained women from more than 40 different African countries in communications and lobbying skills. She has also worked as a mentor for The Prince's Trust and Young Enterprise. She sits on the Court of Governors at LSE.

She is a vice-president of the Debating Group. and in 2019, was named the 50th 'Most Influential Woman in UK Tech' by Computer Weekly magazine.

Personal life
James lives in South Kensington and Stourbridge with her partner, Jay Hunt, previously a producer and presenter with the BBC and now managing director of a video production company, Violet Productions. She ranked in the top 50 on The Independent's "Pink List" of the 101 most influential British gay men and women in 2009.

title: Margot James


text: User talk:212.191.172.149

title: User talk:212.191.172.149


text:
The Caravans

The Caravans were an American gospel music group that was started in 1947 by Robert Anderson. It reached its peak popularity during the 1950s and 1960s, launching the careers of a number of artists, including: Delores Washington, Albertina Walker, Bessie Griffin, Cassietta George, Dorothy Norwood, Inez Andrews, Shirley Caesar and the Rev. James Cleveland, among others.

The group underwent numerous personnel changes between 1951 and 1961. The years 1962 to 1966 provided the Caravans with its most stable group member lineup, consisting of Washington, Walker, Caesar, George, James Herndon and Josephine Howard. The group also made frequent TV appearances during this time on shows such as TV Gospel Time and Jubilee Showcase.

Founding
The Caravans were founded in 1947 under the name Robert Anderson and his Gospel Caravan by Robert Anderson in Chicago, Illinois to serve as Anderson's backing vocalists. The group consisted of Ora Lee Hopkins, Elyse Yancey, Irma Gwynn, Edward Robinson, the pianist, and Louise Overall Weaver as their organist. Their recordings between 1949 and 1951 were made under the names of Robert Anderson and Choir, Anderson Singers with Robert Anderson, Anderson Singers, and Robert Anderson and his Gospel Caravan.

In 1952, Gwynn left the group, a slight change of the group's name to Robert Anderson and The Caravans was made, and Nellie Grace Daniels and Albertina Walker joined the group. The group featuring Walker and Daniels under their new name made their first and only recording on April 18, 1952. During this recording session, a sequence of events happened, resulting in Robert Anderson parting ways with his background singers. Walker, Hopkins, Yancey, and Daniels and Lelia M.Davidson of New Jersey came into the group recorded the remainder of their tracks, and adopted the group name of The Caravans simply by dropping Robert Anderson's name from the group name. Walker was the featured singer on the albums which the newly emancipated Caravans made.

That changed, however, as other singers joined the group, which retained the close harmonies and precise rhythms of the original group, but now allowed each member the opportunity to solo on alternating leads. At their height in the late 1950s the Caravans combined the alto of Shirley Caesar on songs such as "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" with the contralto of Inez Andrews on "Mary Don't You Weep", the soprano of Delores Washington, and the frenetic piano style of Eddie Williams.

Bessie Griffin joined the group in 1953, but left after a year. Cassietta George also joined in 1953 and stayed for two years, but returned in 1960 to stay for another year before rejoining in 1962 and staying for another four years. Norwood joined in 1955 and left in 1957, forming her own group, the Norwood Singers. Inez Andrews joined, at the suggestion of James Cleveland, the pianist and arranger for the group, in 1957 and left in 1962 to form her own group, the Andrewettes (a.k.a. The Gospel Challengers of Jamaica, New York). Andrews returned in 1966, only to depart again and go solo in 1967. Caesar had joineded the Caravans in 1958 and left to pursue a solo career in 1966.

Later years
Albertina Walker recently recorded a reunion album with her group The Caravans entitled "Paved The Way", which was released by Malaco Records on September 5, 2006. This was the group's first new recording since 1976. The group consisted of Walker, Norwood, Andrews, Washington, and special guest Evelyn Turrentine-Agee. The album was dubbed by Billboard Magazine as one of the most memorable releases of 2006 (Deborah Evans Price, December 9, 2006) and entered the Billboard charts in the top ten and has remained in the top forty for sixteen weeks. "Paved the Way" was recently nominated for a Grammy, Dove, & Soul Train Music Award. Albertina Walker died from respiratory failure on 8 October 2010.

Members

 * Ora Lee Hopkins (1951-1954; died 2000)
 * Elyse Yancey (1951-1954)
 * Irma Gwynn (1951-1952; died 2006)
 * Albertina Walker (1952-1972 and 1976 and 2006; died 2010)
 * Nellie Daniels (1952-1954)
 * Edward Robinson (1952-1953)
 * Louise Overall Weaver (1952-1953)
 * Charlotte Nelson (1953)
 * Bessie Griffin (1953-1954; died 1989)
 * Iris Humble (1953-1955)
 * Johneron Davis (1953-1957 and 1960–1962; died 1965)
 * James Cleveland (1953-1957 and 1967; died 1991)
 * Cassietta George (1953-1956 and 1960 and 1962–1966 and 1976; died 1995)
 * Gloria Griffin (1954-1955)
 * Dorothy Norwood (1956-1957 and 1967 and 2006)
 * Sarah McKissick (1956-1958)
 * Imogene Green (1956-1957)
 * Inez Andrews (1957-1962 and 1966–1967 and 2006; died 2012)
 * Eddie Williams (1957-1959 and 1961–1962)
 * Shirley Caesar (1958-1966)
 * Delores Washington (1958-1959 and 1961–1967 and 1976 and 2006; died 2020)
 * James Herndon (1960 and 1963–1967)
 * Josephine Howard (1963-1967 and 1976; died 1978)
 * Julia Mae Price (1966-1972)
 * Bessie Lance (1967)
 * Willie McPhatter (1967-1972)
 * Loleatta Holloway (1967-1972; died 2011)
 * Gwen Morgan (1967-1972)
 * Doris Willingham (1968-1969)
 * Isaiah Jones, Jr. (1976; present)
 * Evelyn Turrentine-Agee (2006)
 * Lelia Davidson (1956-1957)
 * Catherine Morgan (1956-1958)

title: The Caravans


text: User:WhiteDawg

title: User:WhiteDawg


text:
User:Fadetoblack

TO BE CONFUSED WITH Fade to Black (song)

Image:Metallica-AndJusticeForAll.jpg

title: User:Fadetoblack


text:
Danse Macabre (book)

Danse Macabre is a 1981 non-fiction book by Stephen King, about horror fiction in print, TV, radio, film and comics, and the influence of contemporary societal fears and anxieties on the genre. When the book was republished King included a new Forenote dated June 1983 (however not all subsequent editions have included this forenote). And when the book was republished on February 23, 2010, it included an additional new forenote in the form of a longer essay (7,700 words) entitled "What's Scary".

Danse Macabre examines the various influences on King's own writing, and important genre texts of the 19th and 20th centuries. Danse Macabre explores the history of the genre as far back as the Victorian era, but primarily focuses on the 1950s to the 1970s (roughly the era covering King's own life at the time of publication). King peppers his book with informal academic insight, discussing archetypes, important authors, common narrative devices, "the psychology of terror", and his key theory of "Dionysian horror".

King's novel The Stand was published in Spanish as La danza de la muerte 'The Dance of Death', which caused some confusion between the two books (A later Spanish edition of this novel was titled Apocalipsis 'Apocalypse'). The same happened in Brazil and Portugal with both countries translating The Stand as "A Dança da Morte", meaning also "The Dance of Death". Similarly, his 1978 collection of short stories Night Shift was released in France as Danse macabre in 1980. To avoid confusion, the actual "Danse Macabre" essay was given the title "Anatomie de l'horreur" ("An Anatomy of Horror") when it was released in France 14 years later, in 1995.

Background
In the introduction, King credits Bill Thompson, the editor of his first five published novels, and later editor at Doubleday, as being the inspiration for its creation.

"... Bill called me and said, "Why don't you do a book about the entire horror phenomenon as you see it? Books, movies, radio, TV, the whole thing. We'll do it together, if you want."

The concept intrigued and frightened me at the same time."

Thompson ultimately convinced King that if he wrote such a genre survey, he would no longer have to answer tedious, repetitive interview questions on the topic.

Editions
Danse Macabre was originally published in hardcover by Everest House on April 20, 1981 (ISBN 978-0896960763). Along with the trade hardcover, Everest House also published a limited edition of the book, signed by King, limited to 250 numbered copies and 15 lettered copies. The limited edition did not have a dust jacket, and instead was housed in a slipcase. Later, Berkley Books published a mass market paperback edition of the book on December 1, 1983 (ISBN 978-0425064627). A new introduction was added to this edition, entitled "Forenote to the Paperback Edition". Among other things, King discusses the fact that he asked Dennis Etchison "to comb the errors" in the original edition, and thus the 1983 paperback edition contains the corrected text of Danse Macabre. In the book's original Forenote, readers were also asked to send in any errors to be corrected, and those were incorporated as well. On February 23, 2010, Gallery Books published a new edition of Danse Macabre (ISBN 978-1439170984), a trade paperback with the corrected 1983 text, including both the original and the 1983 introductions, as well as a newly written piece "What's Scary?", which serves as a forenote to this 2010 edition.

Synopsis
The backbone of the text is King's teaching notes from several college courses he taught in the 1970s. However, Danse Macabre has a casual, non-linear writing style and expresses a desire to avoid "academic bullshit".

In the introduction, titled "October 4, 1957, and an Invitation to Dance", King begins by explaining why he wrote the book, and then describes the event itself: the launching of the Soviet satellite Sputnik which inspired profound fear in him, intended as his personal introduction to what he calls "the real terror". This is followed by the chapter "Tales of the Hook", specifically "The Hook"; an urban legend about young lovers parked in a car, who narrowly avoid an attack by an escaped prisoner with a hook for a hand. King uses this legend to illustrate his contention that horror in general "offers no characterization, no theme, no particular artifice; it does not aspire to symbolic beauty".

In the following chapter, he creates a template for descriptions of his macabre subject. Entitled "Tales of the Tarot", the chapter has nothing to do with the familiar tarot card deck. Rather, King borrows the term to describe his observations about major archetypal characters of the horror genre, which he posits come from two British novels and one Irish: the vampire (from Dracula), the werewolf (from Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde), and the "Thing Without a Name" (from Frankenstein). In light of the sexually repressed Victorian Era publication of Dracula, King sees a strong sexual undercurrent to the story. Frankenstein is reviewed as "a Shakespearean tragedy", and he argues that "its classical unity is broken only by the author's uncertainty as to where the fatal flaw lies—is it in Victor's hubris (usurping a power that belongs only to God) or in his failure to take responsibility for his creation after endowing it with the life-spark?" King does not mistake Mr. Hyde for a "traditional" werewolf, but rather sees the character as the origin of the modern archetype that was later defined by werewolves. The evil-werewolf archetype, argues King, stems from the base and violent side of humanity. These major archetypes are then reviewed in their historical context, ranging from their original appearances to their modern-day equivalents, up to and including cartoon breakfast cereal characters such as Frankenberry and Count Chocula.

The chapter "An Annoying Autobiographical Pause" begins with King's explanation for why he included the section: "I cannot divorce myself from a field in which I am mortally involved." He then offers a brief family history, discussing his abandonment by his father at the age of two, his childhood in rural eastern Maine, and then explains his childhood fixation with the imagery of terror and horror, making a comparison of his uncle successfully dowsing for water using the bough of an apple branch with the sudden realization of what he wanted to do for a living. While browsing through an attic with his elder brother, King uncovered a paperback version of the H.P. Lovecraft collection The Lurker in the Shadows, which had belonged to his long-since-departed father. The cover art, an illustration of a monster hiding within the recesses of a hell-like cavern beneath a tombstone, was, he writes, the moment in his life which "that interior dowsing rod responded to".

King then resumes his discussion of the horror genre by making detailed commentary of horror in all forms of media, beginning with radio, then proceeding to a highly critical review of television horror, two separate chapters on horror in the motion pictures, and finally concluding with an examination of horror fiction.

His critique on the radio examines such American programs as Suspense, Inner Sanctum, and Boris Karloff, and praises Arch Oboler's Lights Out. King ultimately concludes that, as a medium for horror, radio is superior to television and films, since radio's nature requires a more active use of imagination.

King then turns to two separate chapters of horror in the motion pictures. In "The Modern American Horror Movie—Text and Subtext," the "subtext" he refers to consists of unspoken social commentary he sees in the films. The 1951 film The Thing from Another World implies commentary on the threat of communism, "the quick, no-nonsense destruction of their favorite geopolitical villain, the dastardly Russians," King writes. The popular 1973 film The Exorcist was aptly suited in the wake of the youth upheavals of the late 1960s and early '70s. 1975's The Stepford Wives, King says, "has some witty things to say about Women's Liberation ... and the American male's response to it". In The Amityville Horror, King sees "economic unease" and maintains that the film's 1979 release during an extended economic slump "could not have come along at a more opportune moment". He also calls The China Syndrome, released the same year and usually categorized as a disaster-suspense film, a horror movie that "synthesizes technological fears ... fears of the machinery gone out of control, run wild".

In the following chapter, "The Horror Movie as Junk Food" King begins by making the statement: "I am no apologist for bad filmmaking, but once you've spent twenty years or so going to horror movies, searching for diamonds in the dreck of the B-pics ... you begin to seek the patterns and appreciate them when you find them, you begin to get a taste for really shitty movies." He makes the point that his agent Kirby McCauley had selected the obscure 1977 film Rituals as his favorite, while King himself chose 1979's Tourist Trap as one that "wields an eerie spooky power. Wax figures begin to move and come to life in a ruined, out-of-the-way tourist resort." He continues with reviews of such films as Prophecy (1979), I Married a Monster from Outer Space (1958), The Horror of Party Beach (1964), and The Rocky Horror Picture Show (1975), among others; concluding: "Bad films may sometimes be amusing, sometimes even successful, but their only real usefulness is to form that basis of comparison: to define positive values in terms of their own negative charm. They show us what to look for because it is missing in themselves."

King then turns his most weighty criticism toward television, borrowing Harlan Ellison's description of television as "the glass teat", and subtitling the chapter, "This Monster Is Brought to You by Gainesburgers". He reviews horror anthology programs such as Thriller, The Outer Limits, The Twilight Zone, Dark Shadows, and Night Gallery, ultimately concluding that television is severely limited in its ability to illustrate horror because it is enslaved to the demands of network Standards and Practices censorship and the appeasement of advertising executives that provide the financial means necessary for television to continue its free access.

In the "Horror Fiction" chapter, King describes and reviews a number of horror novels written within a few decades of Danse Macabre. He discusses Peter Straub's Ghost Story, Anne Rivers Siddons's The House Next Door, Richard Matheson's The Shrinking Man, Shirley Jackson's The Haunting of Hill House, Ray Bradbury's Something Wicked This Way Comes, Harlan Ellison's Strange Wine, Ira Levin's Rosemary's Baby, The Body Snatchers by Jack Finney, Ramsey Campbell's The Doll Who Ate His Mother, and James Herbert's The Fog. His primary context is defining what impact they have had on the horror genre, and how significantly they have contributed to the popular culture. Specifically pointing out allegories in his review, King notes:

"Shirley Jackson uses the conventions of the new American Gothic to examine character under extreme psychological—or perhaps occult—pressure; Peter Straub uses them to examine the effects of an evil past upon the present; Anne Rivers Siddons uses them to examine social codes and social pressures; Bradbury uses these self-same conventions in order to offer us a moral judgment."

The final chapter, "The Last Waltz", is a brief analysis of how the medium of horror fiction in all its forms has inspired real-life acts of violence. He describes an incident in which a woman was brutally murdered by youths who confessed to imitating a scene from a TV movie, then objectively includes an example of violence perpetrated by a woman who had been reading his novel The Stand at the time she committed the crime. "If it had not been shown", he writes, "stupidity and lack of imagination might well have reduced them to murdering ... in some more mundane way." In an analysis of why people read and watch horror, he concludes, "Perhaps we go to the forbidden door or window willingly because we understand that a time comes when we must go whether we want to or not."

Classification
Additionally, King classifies the genre into three well-defined, descending levels—terror, horror, and revulsion.

"I recognize terror as the finest emotion and so I will try to terrorize the reader. But if I find that I cannot terrify, I will try to horrify, and if I find that I cannot horrify, I'll go for the gross-out. I'm not proud."
 * He describes terror as "the finest element" of the three, and the one he strives hardest to maintain in his own writing. Citing many examples, he defines "terror" as the suspenseful moment in horror before the actual monster is revealed.
 * Horror, King writes, is that moment at which one sees the creature/aberration that causes the terror or suspense, a "shock value".
 * King finally compares revulsion with the gag-reflex: a bottom-level, cheap gimmick which he admits he often resorts to in his own fiction if necessary, confessing:

title: Danse Macabre (book)


text: User talk:62.162.246.173

title: User talk:62.162.246.173


text:
User talk:Oystertoadfish

Nats sweep
Kudos to the Nationals. Maybe having a real home at last will bring out some of the pent-up talent that the Expos displayed from time to time. Of course, it doesn't hurt to start your home season against the likes of the Diamondbacks. But every win is good. Wahkeenah 21:53, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Survey Invitation
Hi there, I am a research student from the National University of Singapore and I wish to invite you to do an online survey about Wikipedia. To compensate you for your time, I am offering a reward of USD$10, either to you or as a donation to the Wikimedia Foundation. For more information, please go to the research home page. Thank you. --WikiInquirer 13:22, 3 March 2007 (UTC)talk to me

title: User talk:Oystertoadfish


text:
Dorsal consonant

Dorsal consonants are consonants articulated with the back of the tongue (the dorsum). They include the palatal, velar and, in some cases, alveolo-palatal and uvular consonants. They contrast with coronal consonants, articulated with the flexible front of the tongue, and laryngeal consonants, articulated in the pharyngeal cavity.

Function
The dorsum of the tongue can contact a broad region of the roof of the mouth, from the hard palate (palatal consonants), the flexible velum behind that (velar consonants), to the uvula at the back of the mouth cavity (uvular consonants). These distinctions are not clear cut, and sometimes finer gradations such as pre-palatal, pre-velar, and post-velar will be noted.

Because the tip of the tongue can curl back to also contact the hard palate for retroflex consonants (subapical-palatal), consonants produced by contact between the dorsum and the palate are sometimes called dorso-palatal.

title: Dorsal consonant


text:
Talk:Timok Valley

Untitled
Isn't Timocka Krajina including Branicevo and Pomoravlje counties? --Danutz

No, it include only Bor and Zaječar counties. However, some Vlachs of Serbia live in Braničevo and Pomoravlje counties, so you maybe confused Timočka Krajina with the area where Vlach population live. User:PANONIAN

the languages
what are the official languages? why are they not mentioned? Crystalclearchanges (talk) 18:03, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Latin Europe
Hello ! There is a vote going on at Latin Europe that might interest you. Please everyone, do come and give your opinion and votes. Thank you. The Ogre (talk) 21:19, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

"In Serbian, the region is known as Timočka Krajina or Тимочка Крајина, in Vlach as Valea Timocului or Timoc, and in Bulgarian as Тимошко (Timoshko)." I won't get into the issue that Vlach language is Romanian or at least a Romanian dialect. However I believe that one should state in the article that "Valea Timocului" is the name in Romanian as well (maybe " ...in Vlach/Romanian as Valea Timocului...). Lep pozdrav. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 15.195.185.81 (talk) 06:03, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

"Vlachs" and "Vlach" language does not exist. It is proven and recognized all over the Europe and even in Serbia. Therefore i would like to ask the editors to be more careful about this. "Vlachs" is a regional name for ethnic Romanians that live in Serbia and Voivodina. Thank you. Here are some links too. 1.http://www.romanialibera.ro/a103742/romanii-din-valea-timocului-recunoscuti-drept-minoritate-nationala.html 2.http://www.romaniuitati.eu/content/view/104/45/ 3.http://www.timoc.org/54_Bor_12092005/BROSURA.pdf iadrian (talk) 15:19, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

And there are Vlaji (Vlachs) in Dalmatinska Zagora too. The name nowadays describes predominantly Srbe and Hrvate who live there, but it is accepted that originally Vlaji were Vlachs who migrated at various times and settled in Dalmatinska Zagora. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.20.233.61 (talk) 09:09, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Krajina does not translate to "frontier"
Whoever wrote that nonsense needs to learn serbo-croatian much, much better. The word "krajina" draws its root from the word "kraj", which means "an area". In the context "krajina" translates to a "big area", or a "large area" by the suffix "ina". Similar example could be "nož" (knife). Augmentative would be "nožina" or "nožetina", both meaning a big knife. Or, "ljudina" derivative of the word "ljudi" ( a mass noun meaning "people"), but in this context it means a "great man", or "THE man" with the suffix "ina" added to the root "ljud-". Interesting thing with serbo-croatian is that it is extremely flexible and rich language where a word can have many different meanings in a variety of contexts. In this example "ljud" is not a valid word, yet it does have a perfectly understandable meaning of "one man". Adding the suffix "-ina" creates a new valid word.

The word for "frontier" is "granica". Foreigners often confuse the word "kraj" meaning because it also means "end", hence some may think it has something to do with a "frontier", a frontier being an area where the "world as we know it" ends and an unknown land begins. However, that is not the case as the word "kraj" has a definitive meaning as "end" of something with no continuation after it. Proper translation would be "the end" in English. And since we also only have one word for both "border" and "frontier", which is "granica", that can add more confusion to both anglosaxons and us. The situation is very similar to Spanish "por" and "para" words, both being translated in English as "for", but with a different meaning, depending on the context. Since many other language only have one word to translate "por" and "para" it is quite hard for non-Spanish speaking people to work out when to use one and when the other. The same goes for "granica" when translated from or to English. When is "granica" a border, and when is a pioneers' land...?

The differentiation of the two meanings of te word "krajina" (the end and area) in serbo-croat lies in the accent on the letter "a" in the word "kraj". If pronounced with a prolonged and downwards tone, it means "end". If it is pronounced as a short and rising "a", the word means "area".

There are many other areas of Jugoslav territory where the "krajina" was used. These oher "krajinas" are Bela Krajina in Slovenija (notice the word "bela" - white - in ekavian. Slovenian langage and Hrvatski kajkavian, which is merely a mild dialectal variant of Slovenian language and is the language of the majority of people in Hrvatska; are ekavian in their nature, just as today's official serbo-croatian spoken in Srbija), Bosanska Krajina, Cazinska Krajina and so on.

The only "frontiers" were Srpska Krajina and Bosanska Krajina, where Serbian population made majority and were serving as soldiers defending the border between Habsburgs and Ottomans. As Serbs lived on both sides of the border, the "frontier" term would only be meaningful to Austrians in Wienna. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.20.174.164 (talk) 09:43, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

 * I speak several Ex-yu languages and as far as I know the word Krajina was always used as a frontier, also as the article states Timok derives its name from the ancient district of Timachiom from Roman times. Its name means "the Timok frontier". The region was named due to its location around the Timok River and near the state border (hence the name "krajina" - "frontier" in English). - The name Timocka Krajina in Serbian is derived from the Roman word(not Slavic or Serbian) Timachiom - The Timok frontier. Adrian (talk) 11:27, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

If you do speak "several" ex Jugoslav languages, and I am sure you do not (unless you speak Macedonian and Slovenian besides Serbo-Croat) you'd know that you are comparing strawberries to crickets. Firstly, you are confusing the frontier with the border, like many others. Secondly, Krajina has nothing to do with the "frontier". As per my examples of other parts of Jugoslavija, where areas are called krajina of some sort too, and which were not border/frontier areas when they were named. The serbo-croat name "Timocka Krajina" is not "derived" from Timachiom, it is translated, and just so you know Timachiom means nothing in Latin. Do not trust me, find a latin to english online translator, or whatever language you prefer, and see for yourself. Timachiom is not a Latin word but a NAME, probably for the settlement on the border. Names do not necessarily mean anything. By the way, a frontier in Latin is "finitio" and/or "limitotrophus" (agricultural land near a border used for food production for soldiers at the border station). Other words that may be used, depending on a context are terminus, ora, limes, ambitus. And lastly, Timachiom is more likely, I am not an expert on history though so I'm speculating here, a Romanian or Ilirian name for the settlement. Romans were drafting locals for their armies, so it is quite likely that the name reflects the local, non-Latin pedigre. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.20.174.164 (talk) 13:22, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070926222741/http://www.romanialibera.ro/a103742/romanii-din-valea-timocului-recunoscuti-drept-minoritate-nationala.html to http://www.romanialibera.ro/a103742/romanii-din-valea-timocului-recunoscuti-drept-minoritate-nationala.html

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Requested move 28 July 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. -- Calidum 16:15, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Timočka Krajina → Timok Valley – There is no reason to use the Serbian name. This regions counts with a sizable non-Serb minority. Furthermore, parts of Bulgaria are sometimes included in the region, and the Bulgarian name for Timok is different (Timoshko). I think it's better to use an English neutral name. Super  Ψ   Dro  11:41, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 13:11, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Category:Timočka Krajina
since you moved this page, could you also move Category:Timočka Krajina to Category:Timok Valley? Super  Ψ   Dro  18:29, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I will let the bot handle it because you've already listed it as a speedy move. -- Calidum  04:18, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Timok Valley


text:
Talk:Antoni Radziwiłł

Untitled
Born in Berlin?--Emax 19:56, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

..No, in Vilna.

Where is the mention of his daughter's famous romance with Wilhelm of Prussia (Wilhelm I)?--Alexvonf 10:15, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The Photo was not correct!
Was the photo of Friedrich Wilhelm Ferdinand Anton (Teplitz 31 Jul 1833-Berlin 16 Dec 1904); m.Sagan 3 Oct 1857 Marie Dorothee Elisabeth de Castellane (Rochette 19 Feb 1840-Kleinitz 10 Jul 1915). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mctr (talk • contribs) 13:06, 26 January 2007 (UTC).

title: Talk:Antoni Radziwiłł