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Saint Andrew's School, Singapore

St. Andrew's School (abbreviation: SA) is a family of schools in Singapore, affiliated to each other as well as to the Anglican Diocese of Singapore. It comprises St. Andrew's Junior School (SAJS), St. Andrew's Secondary School (SASS) and St. Andrew's Junior College (SAJC). The schools are often referred to as The Saints' Family.

Together, the three schools offer primary, secondary and pre-university education (otherwise known as Grades 1 to 12), having an enrolment of 4000 to 5000 students.

SAJS and SASS are located in the Woodsville Campus, while SAJC is located across the Kallang River in the Potong Pasir Campus. Both campuses are linked to each other by the Jacob Ballas Bridge, forming St Andrew's Village (SAV).

The junior and secondary schools have always only admitted male pupils, but female pupils were admitted to the pre-university or 'A' level classes when they were run from the senior school previously. St Andrew's Junior College has always been co-educational since being separated from the secondary school.

The school is also affiliated with other Anglican and Presbyterian schools in Singapore, including St Margaret's Primary School (St. Andrew's Sister School), St Margaret's Secondary School, St Hilda's Primary School, St Hilda's Secondary School, the Anglican High School, Presbyterian High School and Kuo Chuan Presbyterian Secondary School.

The name of the school is usually abbreviated as SA, or sometimes as SAS. Its pupils and alumni ('Old Boys' and 'Old Girls') are referred to as Saints. The alumni for all former students of St. Andrew's School is St. Andrew's Alumni, and was formed in 1921.

Chin Chew Street (1862–1863)
SAS was founded on 8 September 1862 by Edward Sherman Venn through adopting a private institution owned by Sim Quee and Tye Kim in Chin Chew Street, in Singapore. The Anglican missionary led by Venn funded the school. Sim Quee and Tye Kim remained as headmasters of their school. This was unusual for the day as most missionary schools were not usually headed by Asians. The school was then known as the St Andrew's Church of England Mission School.

Upper Hokkien Street (1863–1872)
On 10 September 1863, the school moved to Upper Hokkien Street because of the need for a better building and more space for the growing school. Soon after, Cheok Loy Fatt was appointed the headmaster.

After a couple of years, the school suffered from financial difficulties, and financial support was withdrawn in 1866. Venn died in 1866, which might explain why financial support was withdrawn at this time. In 1872, the colonial chaplain J.A. Beccles successfully applied to the government for financial aid. Thus, on 22 May 1872, St Andrew's School became a grant-in-aid institution.

Victoria Street (1872–1875)
In 1872, Beccles was succeeded by George Frederick Hose as colonial chaplain. Meanwhile, the growing school moved to Victoria Street. Hose invited William Henry Gomes to act as school superintendent, in which the school prospered and grew.

During the early days at the Victoria Street site, both Hose and Gomes knew that the growth of the school would be hampered by poor accommodation. The government gave the school a 4 acre piece of land on the then Government Hill with a frontage on Stamford Road.

Stamford Road (1875–1940)
The first building to go up was the chapel in 1875 and in that same year, the school vacated its cramped premises in Victoria Street and moved into the Stamford Road site. Classes were held in the chapel, which also became an important centre of public worship.

J. Romanis Lee, who became headmaster from 1912, was a benefactor of the school as it acquired many of its modern characteristics during his period as headmaster. He set about expanding the premises of the school and raised the status of the school from a second grade school to top grade in 1914, in which the school started to offer the Senior Cambridge Examination. He also established a tradition of sports in the school; the school excelled in boxing and rugby union.

Joseph Lee became headmaster in 1924 and the enrolment increased to 800. Lee established John Oxenham's poem "Up and On" as the school song. The first issue of the school magazine, "Up and On", made its appearance in 1928.

Reginald Keith Sorby Adams succeeded Lee as the next headmaster on 1 October 1934. By that time, St Andrew's had become well known for its boxing and rugby. The need for a bigger area than the cramped site at Stamford Road had become a problem by the early 1930s. There were scarcely enough classrooms and there was no playing field for a school which showed so much enthusiasm and aptitude for outdoor games.

This site ultimately became the site of the National Library of Singapore from 1960, before it moved to Victoria Street.

Pre-war Woodsville (1940–1942)
In 1938, Woodsville Estate comprising 7.49 ha of land, was purchased for $60,000. Adams, assisted by archdeacon Graham White, played a major role in the moving of the school to the Woodsville site, after previously rejecting two sites in Tanjong Katong and on Serangoon Road. The two-storey school buildings were completed and officially opened by S. W. Jones, the officer administering the government, on 29 July 1940. The start of World War II in Singapore had the school closed.

Post-war Woodsville (1945–1990)
Immediately after the war, the school was the first to re-open. The school was then divided into lower school and upper school. Until the arrival of Adams, who had just been released from internment, D.D. Chelliah acted as headmaster. As the school population grew, the school grew as well with the addition of another floor in 1952. The Lim Teck Kin Tower was also added in that year.

In 1955, the lower school was renamed the Junior School, and the upper school was renamed Secondary School. In 1956, due to the rapid growth of the junior school, it was further separated into two schools: Junior I and Junior II. Each junior school was run by its own headmaster, but this changed from 1960 onwards when both schools shared the same head.

In 1969, pre-university classes started and in 1978, St Andrew's Junior College was established and moved to Malan Road. By the 1980s, the Woodsville site was unable to handle the growth of both junior schools and the secondary school. Meanwhile, with nearby Potong Pasir developed, the school requested that a 4.18-hectare site allocated for education would be used for the St Andrew's Secondary School. Construction of the secondary school started on 3 November 1984 and the buildings were opened in July 1986.

1990-present
In 1990, the two junior schools were combined into one school: St Andrew's Junior School. In 1996, the school had to relocate due to noise pollution from the recently upgraded Pan-Island Expressway. The school was relocated in January 1996 and the new school building was declared open by the then Minister for Education, Teo Chee Hean, in 1997.

As part of the St Andrew's Village project, all three schools were planned to return to Woodsville and Potong Pasir. Renovation and expansion of the junior school started in 2003, and the new buildings opened in December 2004. Construction of a new secondary school started in 2003, opposite the junior school along Francis Thomas Drive, and opened in December 2004. Construction of the junior college started in June 2003 after the secondary school vacated the site and shifted to its holding location. The junior college opened in December 2005 and a ceremony was held to mark its return to Woodsville/Potong Pasir. The village was officially opened on 26 August 2006, with the ceremony being held at the 1000-seater Cultural Centre in the junior college.

In addition to these three schools, the village also houses the diocesan office, the Ascension Kindergarten and three church buildings: the Chapel of the Resurrection, Chapel of the Holy Spirit and Church of Ascension. Some of the new facilities at the village include an Olympic size swimming pool, a 1,000-seat performing arts centre (Cultural Centre), air-conditioned school halls, gymnasiums, indoor basketball court, roof-top basketball court, tennis courts, cafe, rockwall, astro-turf artificial field and a sheltered bridge across the Kallang River to connect the junior and secondary schools to the junior college across the river. In 2010, piling work began for the construction of St Andrew's Hall, a 12-storey hostel with sufficient rooms to accommodate up to 600 students with facilities including a dining room for 600 people, an adjoining multipurpose hall as well as a clinic to serve the residents of the hall and St Andrew's Village. St Andrew's Hall was officially opened on 25 August 2012.

Construction for a new combined indoor sports hall at the existing site of the secondary school canteen block commenced in November 2016 with target for completion by end 2018. The new double size indoor sports hall block includes a new canteen for the secondary school. The junior school also commenced the PERI upgrading in the same period which will see construction above the current library as well as a new block at the end of the quadrangle facing the junior college.

There are also currently plans to redevelop the old science block which used to house the pre-university classes and currently houses Ascension Kindergarten. The redevelopment plans will include a new student leadership centre. The redevelopment plan is expected to be executed upon the completion of the indoor sports hall and PERI upgrading.

Saints' spirit
The students of the school are encouraged to support the school sports teams. Particularly during semifinals and finals matches, the entire school is usually in full force at the venue to support the school team, wearing their widely recognised blue and white hoops. Cheering is led by the prefectorial board and the student government.

The school's rugby team also has its own battle cry, which is called the Saints' battle cry. It is normally mistaken by people as the haka. It is usually performed before the start of the match at a final or at special events.

The Saints' spirit also permeated into music producing members of such recording artists as The Sundowners, Tornados, Wes Cossacks, Straydogs, and Electrons with Rex Goh Tee Huat. The latter went on to join Australia's Air Supply.

Sports
The school has been famous since the 1930s, and in 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965 and 1966 concurrently, under the dedicated tutelage of Mr Keong Snr, it rose to a new high with its boxing and rugby dominance over Singapore Boy's Town, Anglo-Chinese School, and Raffles Institution. Since the 1970s, the school has won the national championships consistently. The 1990s saw competition from Anglo-Chinese School (Independent) and Raffles Institution, but St Andrew's has had a major revival in the sport in recent years.

The school also excels in cricket and hockey. Under the guidance of the cricket master Philip Ng, the school's cricket team saw success from 1998 onwards, with eight of its eleven players being called up for national under-15 representations in their first year of the game. The rivalry between Raffles Institution and St. Andrew's continued in the ovals as the teams battled for the championship titles over the next few years.

Houses
The school has a house system aimed at intra-school sporting competitions. The school originally had eleven houses. Today, there are five houses throughout the school, from the junior school to the junior college. The five houses are named after important people in the school's history:
 * Venn (black), after Edward Sherman Venn, who was founder of the school in 1862,
 * Hose (blue), after George Frederick Hose, who was colonial chaplain in the 1860s,
 * Loy Fatt (yellow), after Cheok Loy Fatt, who was headmaster in the 1870s,
 * Gomes (red), after William Henry Gomes, who was school superintendent during the 1870s, and
 * Romanis (green), after J. Romanis Lee, who was headmaster in the 1910s.

School song, hymn and crest
The school song was introduced by Joseph Lee. The words of the song are from John Oxenham's poem Up and On. All three schools share the same school song, school hymn and school crest.

School crest The official heraldic description of the crest is: Azure, a saltire argent, in chief keys, in base a tiger's face. Simply, the crest is a blue shield, with a silver diagonal cross. In the top quarter are two keys, and in the lower quarter is a tiger's face.

The blue shield and silver diagonal cross is the St Andrew's Cross. The keys represent the Keys to Knowledge and Heaven, and the tiger's face is a local symbol of strength.

St Andrew's Junior School
St Andrew's Junior School (SAJS) started off as the lower school of St Andrew's School after World War 2. After being renamed in 1956, the school was split into two schools, but were combined in 1990. The school later moved to a site in Potong Pasir because of noise pollution caused by the recently upgraded Pan-Island Expressway in 1996.

Following plans for the St Andrew's Village, the school moved into new buildings at the same Potong Pasir site in December 2004 at 2 Francis Thomas Drive, Singapore 359337.

St Andrew's Secondary School
St Andrew's Secondary School (SASS) started as the upper school of St Andrew's School after World War 2. The school moved from the Woodsville site in July 1986 to its site in Potong Pasir across the Kallang River after the Woodsville buildings were deemed inadequate for the running of both the junior and senior classes. In mid-2003, the school shifted to the old Victoria School building at Kallang Bahru as a temporary holding site. As part of the St Andrew's Village project, the school has moved into new buildings beside SAJS since 2005 at 15 Francis Thomas Drive, Singapore 359342. The premises incorporates Woodsville House which was earmarked as a heritage building. Woodsville House used to be the residences of the principals of St Andrew's School and is now used as the offices for the head of Departments on the second floor and has a small heritage gallery on the ground floor.

St Andrew's Junior College
St Andrew's Junior College (SAJC) started as pre-university classes in 1969 and in 1978, moved to its site at 2 Malan Road. The college started the new year in 1978 with a brand new image, including a College Anthem of its own. However, in 1993, the college adopted back the original St Andrew's School crest, motto, song and hymn. The college has since returned to Potong Pasir as of 2006 as part of the St Andrew's Village project. It is situated on the former SASS site at 55 Potong Pasir Avenue 1, Singapore 358389. A sheltered pedestrian bridge, named Jacob Ballas Bridge, connects the junior college to the junior school and secondary school across the Kallang River.

Rugby

 * National Schools Under-20 A-Division (Since 1971): 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1979, 1981, 1987, 1989, 2006 and 2013
 * National Schools Under-17 B-Division (Since 1970): 1970, 1971, 1973, 1974, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1993, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2009, 2012, 2014, 2018 and 2023
 * National Schools Under-14 C-Division (Since 1970, 1974 unknown): 1970, 1971, 1972, 1976, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1986, 1987, 1990, 2013 and 2015
 * National Inter-Primary Schools Under-13 (Since 1996): 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011 and 2012
 * National Inter-Primary Schools Under-11 (Since 2005): 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2011, 2012 and 2013

Cricket

 * National Schools Under-20 A-Division: 2003 and 2004
 * National Schools Under-17 B-Division: 1996, 1997, 1998, 2001, 2002 and 2003
 * National Schools Under-14 C-Division: 1998, 1999 and 2002

Hockey

 * National Schools Under-20 A-Division (Boys): 2010
 * National Schools Under-17 B-Division (Boys): 2005, 2008, 2016, 2019, 2023
 * National Schools Under-14 C-Division (Boys): 1996, 2010, 2012, 2014
 * National Inter-Primary Schools Under-13 (Boys): 2002, 2004, 2006, 2012, 2013,2022
 * National Inter-Primary Schools Under-11 (Boys): 2000, 2003, 2004, 2011

Others

 * National Schools Under-20 A-Division Basketball (Boys): 2002, 2004
 * National Schools Under-20 A-Division Bowling (Boys): 2002, 2005, 2006 and 2007
 * National Schools Under-20 A-Division Rhythmic Gymnastics (Girls): 2005
 * National Schools Under-20 A-Division Sailing (Boys): 2001
 * National Schools Under-20 A-Division VolleyBall (Girls): 2004
 * National Schools Under-14 C-Division Football (Boys): 1987
 * National Schools Under-20 A-Division Waterpolo (Girls): 2007
 * National Schools Under-17 B-Division Waterpolo: 1994, 1995
 * FAS Inter-JC Girls' Soccer Championship: 2005 and 2007

Citations in literature

 * "Hearts Courageous: The Story Of St Andrew's School". Charles, Belinda (principal, St Andrew's Junior College 1990-2001, St. Andrew's Secondary 2001-2010). Landmark Books. 2001. ISBN 981-073-131-0.
 * Poem: "Sungei Kallang Afternoons At St Andrew's School" by Koh Buck Song (O levels 1979), published in The Worth Of Wonder (poetry collection by Koh Buck Song, Times Editions, 2001, ISBN 981-232-180-2); and in Singapore: Places, Poems, Paintings (book of poems and paintings about places in Singapore, Art & Artist Speak, 1993, ISBN 981-00-4559-X).
 *  Memoirs of a Migrant  . Thomas, Francis (principal, St. Andrew's Secondary 1963-1974). University Education Press, 1972. ISBN 978-981-07-5679-6

Politics

 * Elizabeth Choy: War heroine, Obtained the Order of British Empire
 * David Saul Marshall: Singapore's first chief minister, politician, diplomat, Singapore's most successful criminal lawyer
 * Benjamin Sheares: Singapore's second president
 * Eddie Teo: former permanent secretary – prime minister's Office, Singapore's ambassador
 * Fong Chong Pik (also known as "The Plen"): former leader of the Malayan Communist Party
 * J B Jeyaratnam: Opposition politician and former secretary-general of the Workers' Party. First opposition politician to be voted into Singapore's Parliament after independence, in the 1981 Anson constituency by-election.
 * Kenneth Jeyaretnam: Opposition politician. Secretary-general of the Reform Party of Singapore. Son of the late J.B. Jeyaretnam.
 * Paul Tambyah: Opposition politician. Chairman of the Singapore Democratic Party.
 * Noeleen Heyzer: executive secretary of the Economic and Social Commission for Asia and the Pacific; 1967 Pre U 2 Med
 * S. Iswaran: former minister for transport
 * Michael Palmer: former speaker of Parliament

Law

 * David Saul Marshall: criminal lawyer, diplomat, politician, Singapore's first chief minister
 * Joseph Grimberg: Singapore's Senior Counsel
 * Harry Elias: Singapore's Senior Counsel

Business

 * Harry Elias: Singaporean lawyer, founder of Harry Elias and partners
 * Koh Boon Hwee: chairman – Yeo Hup Seng Group, chairman – DBS Group, chairman – Singapore Airlines, director – Temasek Holdings
 * Brandon Wade: American internet entrepreneur, Founder of Seeking.com
 * Jacob Ballas: Stockbroker; Inaugural chairman of the Malayan Stock Exchange, from 1962 to 1964, and later the Malaysia and Singapore Stock Exchange from 1964 to 1967; Founder of Singapore's then largest stockbrokers J.Ballas & Co.
 * Frank Benjamin; Businessman; Founder of fashion brand management and retailing company F J Benjamin in 1959. In 1975, he opened Singapore's first single-brand store, Lanvin, in the Grand Hyatt hotel.

Science, arts, education, journalism

 * Kishore Mahbubani: dean of the National University of Singapore Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy, diplomat, former ambassador of Singapore to the United Nations, ex-president – United Nations Security Council
 * Leslie Charteris (Leslie Charles Bowyer Yin): British-American author and screenwriter ('The Saint (Simon Templar)', etc.)
 * Koh Buck Song: writer, journalist, author of Brand Singapore, business consultant, deputy chairman of Censorship Review Committee 2009–10.
 * Woffles Wu: plastic surgeon, present head of the St Andrew's Alumni Association
 * Xian Xinghai: Chinese composer
 * Cherian George: Writer, journalist, author of numerous works, such as and ; Professor of Media Studies at Hong Kong Baptist University

Entertainment

 * Nickson Fong: First Singaporean to receive an Academy Award. CEO and co-founder, Egg Story Creative Production Pte Ltd. FX technical director and shot development technical director of The Matrix and its sequels.
 * Stefanie Sun: Chinese pop singer
 * Rex Goh: Musician. Former guitarist in Air Supply.
 * JJ Lin Jun Jie: Chinese pop singer and composer
 * Hong Junyang: Chinese pop singer, first male runner-up in MediaCorp Channel U Project Superstar 1 (Singapore)
 * Devarajan Varadarajan: 2nd runner in Mediacorp Vasantham Star (Singapore), starring in Mediacorp Vasantham drama serials and Mediacorp Channel 5's Point of Entry, Seasons 1, 2, 3 and 4. Winner – Highly Commended Best Supporting Actor, Asian Television Awards 2012.

Sports

 * U.K. Shyam: Former holder of Singapore's national 100 m sprint record at 10.37s. Singapore's national team.
 * Indra Sahdan Daud: Singapore national football player
 * Wilfred Skinner: former Singapore international football goalkeeper and field hockey centre-half.

Media mentions

 * Column on Elizabeth Choy – "She paid 40 cents for me to have this picture" by Koh, Buck Song (St Andrew's School 1970–79), The Straits Times 11 September 1995.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Saint Andrew's School, Singapore


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Marton

Marton may refer to:

England

 * Marton, Blackpool, district of Blackpool, Lancashire
 * Marton, Bridlington, area of Bridlington in the East Riding of Yorkshire
 * Marton, Cheshire, village and civil parish in Cheshire
 * Marton, Cumbria, village in Cumbria
 * Marton, East Riding of Yorkshire, hamlet in the East Riding of Yorkshire
 * Marton, Harrogate, village in North Yorkshire
 * Marton, Lincolnshire, village in Lincolnshire
 * Marton, Middlesbrough, suburb of Middlesbrough
 * Marton, Myddle, Broughton and Harmer Hill, a location in Shropshire
 * Marton, Ryedale, village in North Yorkshire
 * Marton, Shropshire or Marton-in-Chirbury, village in Shropshire
 * Marton, Warwickshire, village in Warwickshire
 * Marton-in-the-Forest, North Yorkshire
 * Marton-le-Moor, village in North Yorkshire
 * Long Marton, parish of Eden, Cumbria
 * Whitegate and Marton, parish of Vale Royal, Cheshire

Elsewhere

 * Marton, New Zealand, town in the Manawatu-Wanganui region
 * Marton, Queensland, town in the Shire of Cook, Queensland, Australia

Given name

 * Márton Balázs (1929–2016), Romanian mathematician of Hungarian descent
 * Marton Csokas (born 1966), New Zealand actor
 * Márton Fucsovics (born 1992), Hungarian tennis player
 * Márton Vas (born 1980), Hungarian ice hockey player

Surname

 * Andrew Marton (1904–1992), Hungarian-American film director
 * Áron Márton (1896–1980), Roman Catholic bishop
 * Brian Marton, Australian sprint canoer
 * Dana Marton, American romance novelist
 * Edvin Marton (born 1974), Hungarian violinist and composer
 * Ervin Marton (1912–1968), Hungarian and French artist and photographer
 * Éva Marton (born 1943), Hungarian operatic soprano
 * Ference Marton (born 1939), Swedish educational psychologist
 * George Marton (1839–1905) (1835–1905), British Conservative politician
 * Jack Marton, Australian taekwondo practitioner
 * Javier Martón, Spanish footballer
 * Jirina Marton (born 1946), Czech-born Canadian artist and illustrator
 * Kati Marton (born 1949), American author and journalist
 * László Marton (director) (1943–2019), Hungarian theatrical director
 * Sandra Marton, American novelist
 * Sandy Marton (born 1959), Croatian singer
 * Avinoam Marton, Israeli drummer and singer, member of Teapacks between 1991 and 1994

Other uses

 * MV Marton, a British coaster

title: Marton


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Melvin Brown (footballer)

Melvin Brown Casados (born 28 January 1979) is a Mexican former professional footballer who played as a centre-back.

Brown made his debut in the Primera División with Cruz Azul in the 2001 Apertura, and quickly became a mainstay at defense for the club. In his three and a half years with the club, he played in 109 games, scoring five goals. Following the 2004 Clausura, Brown was transferred to the Jaguares at the request of his coach at Cruz Azul, José Luis Trejo.

International career
Born in Mexico, Brown is of Jamaican descent through his paternal grandfather. Despite an approach by the Jamaica Football Federation inviting him to join the country national team, he opted to play for his country of birth at under-23 level. He ended up making his international debut with the Mexico senior side, on 1 July 2001, in a 1–0 home win over the United States. He was later named to the roster for the 2002 FIFA World Cup, but he was not used during the tournament.

title: Melvin Brown (footballer)


text:
Talk:David Thompson (explorer)

Mackenzie and Thompson
Is there a source for this statement: "Alexander Mackenzie despised Thompson and wrote a letter to the king denouncing him for marrying a Métis." I haven't been able to find anything on the Internet that supports it. Sunray 07:09, 2004 Dec 9 (UTC)

 * I've done extensive reading from primary and secondary documents on both Thompson and Mackenzie, and have found absolutely nothing about their relationship. Furthermore, it would be unusual for someone in the fur trade to be "despised" for marrying a Metis as this was a common practice. On the other hand, according to George Nelson's journal, Mackenzie did not like it when Nelson, his XY Company employee, took a Native wife (see Peers & Schenk's edition of Nelson's memoirs, _My first years in the fur trade: The journals of 1802-1804_.) But I would very much like to see documentation on this specific claim about Thompson and Mackenzie. Country Wife 15:25, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

 * Thanks for your comment. Given the strong wording and lack of a source, I have removed the statement from the text.  If we find evidence that Mackenzie made such a statement we can put it back in the article. Sunray 15:58, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Should Thompson be considered Welsh?
On 8 July 2006, Ccscott removed Thompson from the Welsh Canadian category on the grounds that Thompson was born in London, not Wales. This is true. However, his claim to being Welsh rests on the fact that his father was Welsh. Is this sufficient? --Country Wife 01:15, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

 * It seems to me that that since he was born in London, and that there is no record (that I know of) that he ever lived in, or even visited Wales, he would not be considered a Welsh explorer. I have no problem with it being noted in the article that he was born to Welsh parents but the category listing of 'Welsh Explorer' is a little misleading/confusing in my opinion. --Thylark 15:14, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

This facet of Thompson was started by Bigsby in his book, The Shoe and The Canoe. Bigsby travelled with Thompson on the boundary surveys of 1820-24 and took a bit of literary license when he said he had the sound of a Welshman. Considering Thompson had lived among Scots, English, French and Cree for almost 40 year before Bigsby met him, he likely had a "northern" patois—a blend of all three dialects in terms of cadence, but a firm grasp of English. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Speake158 (talk • contribs) 01:31, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

New Caption on Image
It should be noted that this is a very speculative artistic impression of Thompson, as no historic image of him exists. Also, why include the reference to Charlotte Small as 'the Woman of the Paddle Song'.This moniker only comes from a FICTIONAL book written in recent years.I have also removed the reference to Charlotte being Métis. She would most likely not have been familiar with the term 'Métis', which was not yet in common usage at that time, nor did she ever belong to an established Métis community.

Thompson would nver have won that. He was a strong believer in woollen clothing over fur and leather because the latter two do not retain heat when wet. When writing of the Cree in his Travels, Thompson states, "It may be said they can clothe themselves with their furrs; this can be only true in the winter months and even then their weight is very inconvenient in the warm seasons. Exposed to all weather, the furrs would soon rot and become a very pest to the wearer, and Indians are so sensible of this that while they can procure woollen clothing, they never make use of furrs for that purpose." At least he wasn't shown wearing a tri-corner hat! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Speake158 (talk • contribs) 01:27, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Edit to "NorthWest Company"
I removed the statement "In 1797, Thompson was sent south by his employers to survey of much of the Canada-U.S. boundary along the 49th parallel in the west, and from the St. Lawrence River to Lake of the Woods to  satisfy unresolved questions of territory arrising from the Jay Treaty between Great Britain and the United States." Jul/Aug 2007 Canadian Geographic says that he completed this survey in 1817 (exact phrase used is "1817: Surveys the Canada/U.S. border from Lake of the Woods to the Eastern Townships in Quebec"). Since he just joined the NWC in 1797 I think it was right to remove it. I included reference to this expedition in the "Later Years" section. I haven't done a lot of reading on the subject (just this magazine article) but I find it hard to believe he would have completed the same expedition in 1797 and 1817, especially since he didn't move to Eastern Canada till 1812. If anyone can find a citation to reverse this then by all means. Zatoichi26 02:24, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * My understanding that In 1817 he was indeed employed to survey the borders set up after the War of 1812. However, previously in 1797-98, he was sent by the NWC to determine the border with the US as set by a earlier treaty in order to ensure the company was collecting furs from allowed territories. I've added back in the previous info and worked in your edits. (see: here, Paragraph 12). Ccscott 06:19, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
 * ok - thanks! my bad.. Zatoichi26 22:53, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

In an earlier draft of his Travels (Manuscript III, p 65-6), Thompson describes his mission: "My instructions were to examine and survey the rivers southward of the great Saskatchewan river and to determine the exact place of the very head of the Mississippi River, descend it as far as safety would allow, from there to the river St Louis by which to descend to the southwest end of Lake Superior and survey the south side of to the Falls of St. Maries. It was supposed to take me two years but by hard marching I accomplished it in eleven months." It is unknown why he shifted the story but the earlier version is correct.--Speake158 (talk) 15:36, 25 January 2009 (UTC) Speake158 (talk) 07:09, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

 * I think the problem with this section is that he was not sent to survey the 49th parallel in 1797, what he was sent to do was to find the headwaters of the Mississippi and the "water communication between Lake Superior and Lake of the Woods". Both of these locations where not known well enough in 1783 so that the Treaty of Paris description of the boundary was impossible. The Northwest Company headquarters at Grand Portage is in what is now Minnesota and they wanted to know if they needed to move, which later they did. The significance of the headwaters of the Mississippi was that this represented the western boundary of the US at the time, meaning that the Northwest company was free to trade in what was to become North Dakota without paying US duties, etc. Only after the Louisiana purchase in 1803 did locating a boundary west of Lake of the Woods become an issue. Interestingly no boundaries appear on his 1814 map. After his time in the west, Thompson was later employed to survey parts of the boundary the east, but never the 49th parallel which was only agreed to in 1818 and not surveyed until many years later. I am going to edit out the term "49th parallel" from this section, as well as remove some vandalism. Kpgokeef (talk) 22:43, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Thompson's Broken Leg
I removed the statement that Thompson's leg was broken "in a sledding accident". Thompson describes his fracture as follows: "on coming down a rude steep bank I fell and broke the large bone of my right leg and had to be hauled home". (Narrative, Glover ed., p.55 http://link.library.utoronto.ca/champlain/DigObj.cfm?Idno=9_96867&lang=eng&Page=0158&Size=3&query=william%20tomison&searchtype=Fulltext&startrow=1&Limit=All) ) He does not state that he was sledding; he could have been walking or snowshoeing. The bank may have been the steep bank of the North Saskatchewan River, near the fur post. Country Wife 14:52, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Thompson broke his right femur ("the large bone of my right leg") and crushed his ankle, according to his Travels. William Tomison at Manchester House writes on 23 December 1788: "David Thompson unfortunately fell coming down the river bank about one mile from the house, by which his leg was caught between a stick and the sled, which fractured the bone and otherwise bruised his leg very much." (Hudson Bay Company Archives B.121/a/2)

speake158 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Speake158 (talk • contribs) 01:23, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Thompson's Children
Although Thompson had 13 children with Charlotte (and, it has been suggested, another child with another woman during his fur trade years), only the first five were born during his time in the fur trade. Thompson's children were: Fanny, born 10 Jun 1801, Rocky Mountain House; Samuel, born 5 Mar 1804, Peace River Forks; Emma, born March 1806, Reed Lake House, died 22 Feb 1814 (Montreal?); John, born 25 Aug 1808, Boggy Hall, Saskatchewan, died 15 Jan 1814, Terrebonne village; Joshua, born 28 Mar 1811, Fort Augustus; Henry, born 30 July 1813, Terrebonne village, died 23 Oct 1855; Charlotte, born 7 July 1815, Terrebonne village; Elizabeth, born 25 April 1817, Williamstown; William, born 9 Nov 1819, Williamstown; Thomas, born 10 July 1822, Williamstown; George, born 13 July 1824, Williamstown; Mary, born 2 April 1827, Williamstown; Eliza, born 4 March 1829, Williamstown. Country Wife 15:17, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

As for Thompson's family always accompanying him on all his travels, that is also incorrect; for example, Fanny was in a Montreal boarding school in 1810. Also, in July 1810, Thompson was expecting the North West Company to send him on a year's furlough to Montreal, so he leaves his family at Lake Winnipeg. See: Nisbet, Jack. _Sources of the River: Tracking David Thompson Across Western North America_, pp. 165,174 Thompson also gave a detailed list of the men and canoes accompanying him to the mouth of the Columbia in 1811; none of his family were listed. Country Wife 15:33, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Spelling of Ile-a-la-Crosse
This word is almost certainly misspelled in the main article. The accent on the letter 'a' probably should be grave (rather than acute). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.105.157.5 (talk) 15:58, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:1957 Thompson Stamp.jpg
Image:1957 Thompson Stamp.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 08:30, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

"Red Deer Lake" or "The Deer Lake"
The following statement might be confusing Red Deer Lake (which is between Bashaw and Ponoka) with Lac La Biche (The Deer Lake). I never heard of a trading post on Red Deer Lake. Might be something to check.

In 1798, the company sent him to Red Deer Lake (Lac La Biche in present-day Alberta) to establish a trading post. The English translation of Lac la Biche-Red Deer Lake-first appeared on the Mackenzie map of 1793.[6] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:56A:F730:F200:99F6:B3A4:B317:8294 (talk) 23:40, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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this article needs more references
There are a number of paragraphs throughout the article that do not have any citations. Specifically, in the following sections: Please do not remove the maintenance tag until this has been resolved. Thanks. — howcheng  {chat} 16:35, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Hudson's Bay Company (HBC) (2 paras)
 * North West Company (2 paras)
 * Columbia River travels (3 paras)
 * Later years (2 paras)
 * Death and afterward (3 paras)
 * I've added references to support the material mentioned. In a couple of cases I can't find a suitable source, and I've marked these with citation needed tags. I'll remove the maintenance tag now. Kognos (talk) 14:35, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

External links modified
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Reasons for leaving HBC
The article states that Thompson left because he was "frustrated by Hudson's Bay Company's policies over promoting the use of alcohol with indigenous people", but does not cite any source for this. This may have been one of his reasons - Thompson was certainly strongly opposed to the liquor trade - but I can find no reference to this being an issue between him and HBC in the period leading up to his departure. On the other hand, it's clear from David Thompson's narrative (https://archive.org/details/davidthompsonsna12thom) that a major reason for leaving was the order to cease surveying and focus on the fur trade. Thompson believed (correctly) that the North-West company would support a balance between the two activities. If I can find a source for the alcohol issue I will reference both as reasons, otherwise I will reword to just mention surveying. Kognos (talk) 09:41, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Further reading, particularly of Nisbet Sources of the River has turned up nothing to suggest that liquor was a factor in Thompson leaving HBC, and clearly suggests that both HBC and NWC had similar policies. So I'm taking out the reference. Kognos (talk) 10:29, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:David Thompson (explorer)


text:
User talk:U193581/Archive 3

Archived talk
''Talk previous to 21 July 2005 is archieved at the links below. '' Talk to 8 Dec 2004 9 Dec 04 - 26 Feb 05 27 Feb 05 - 17 Apr 05 18 April 05 - 21 Jul 05 19 April 05 - 20 Dec 05

LMS-USA
I've added to your article on the LMS-USA. Please take a look and see if it seems okay. I didn't see anywhere on the LMS-USA website that said whether they have female ministers, but you've commented in the past that they do. If so, this should probably go in the article, since that would make them the only U.S. Lutheran body besides the ELCA that does. Also, should a note of the LMS-USA split go onto the American Association of Lutheran Churches page? Thanks. Ropcat 03:32, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * I wasn't aware that LMS-USA was a split from the AALC, so I don't want to write about that much until I can find some more information. The issue of women's ordination is left to each congregation, if I understand LMS-USA polity correctly. Thanks for the addition. EdwinHJ | Talk 16:37, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No problem. By the way, there's some stuff about the split on the LMS-USA website http://www.lmsusa.org/index.htm under "Synod Introduction" and then "A Brief History of the LMS-USA." Cheers. Ropcat 00:41, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hubert Humphrey
Actually all the information in the paragraph you've just excised is from Robert Dallek's biography of Lyndon Johnson. If you'd care to put it back that would be very sweet. --Mr impossible 01:01, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

 * The information you talk about is disputed and not supported by many biographers of HHH himself. It is certainly not NPOV. EdwinHJ | Talk 18:10, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Washington Nationals
Why did you put a cleanup message in this article? It may not be perfect, but it seems in pretty good shape and generally conforms to Wikipedia style. --Polynova 07:07, Feb 27, 2005 (UTC)

 * The tense of the article varies throughout. Sections of the article written while the team was based in Canada need to be reworked for tense and interal coherence. EdwinHJ | Talk 07:13, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Who are you people and why do you send me meessages??!! STOPP

Political subdivisions of the state of New York
Why the move? Nelson Ricardo 00:46, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)

 * To match the stylings of other states and emphasize that the term "New York State" is unofficial and could be confused with a university. The "state of New York" is unambiguous. EdwinHJ | Talk 01:17, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * I see now that this idea is not one that is popular, and I understand those reasons and now agree. EdwinHJ | Talk 20:53, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

United States presidential line of succession
You just added the template to United States presidential line of succession, with the edit summary that "CABINET OFFICERS NEED TO BE UPDATED FOR 2005". Let's go through the my issues with this action: For reasons 1 and 2 above, I have removed the template. — DLJessup 19:23, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) As far as I can tell, the list of cabinet officers is actually up to date.  This page has seen quite a lot of editing in the past couple of months with the whole Cabinet reshuffle.
 * 2) The cleanup template requires that the person using it add an entry to Cleanup so that the community can effectively address the problem.  I only know about the cleanup reason because this page happens to be on my watchlist; your average user would have no idea why the  template has been applied here.
 * 3) Typing in all caps is generally considered to be poor etiquette, as it is the online equivalent of shouting.

 * I hadn't yet had the chance to add it to the "cleanup" page before you deleted the template. Upon further revie, the cabinet officers had been updated. That was my error. EdwinHJ | Talk 20:53, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Nomination for admin.
Accept your nomination here. I'll take your question as to whether I would still nominate you as evidence that it is ok to do so. Please go to the link above, accept the renomination and answer the 'questions for candidates'. Good luck. Pedant 22:21, 2005 Mar 11 (UTC)

Query
You asked "Is there a reason you didn't respond to my earlier question?" I don't remember you asking me a question. What was it? – Quadell (talk) (sleuth) 11:18, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)

Jake Gyllenhaal Picture
I don't know how to get info on that pic. I just searched and found it on google. How do I find out if it's available for use??? Bremen 05:57, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * We must assume that the image is not available for use, unless we have permission or the image qualifies as "fair use." For more information see Copyrights. EdwinHJ | Talk 19:47, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Dem-NPL article
Why did you move North Dakota Democratic-NPL Party without posting a comment first? The banner on the Dem-NPL site may omit the hyphen, but it is there everywhere else. --Alexwcovington (talk) 07:16, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * It is such a minor move, I didn't believe that it was a big deal. You're right that I should have placed a note before doing it, even if it's not technically required. The hyphen is omitted in several North Dakota newspapers now as well as the Dem NPL webpage, so I believed that it was an appropriate change. EdwinHJ | Talk  19:44, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Looking at their webpage it seems that they still use the hypen in a lot of their articles. I don't care if the hypen is there or not, but if it is not going to be there please edit the article to remove it from the body of the article Smith03 16:48, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Congrats on reaching 1,000 edits
I will finally respect you once you have made 11,000 edits ;) MicahMN | Talk 01:17, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Minnesota images
I found out that Minnesota government images are in fact not public domain (so secondarily I need to delete the template/image tag Template:PD-MNGov under which e.g. Image:Rudy_perpich.gif, Image:Mike_Hatch.jpg are placed.) If you can find another image tag under which to put this, it would help a lot - thanks! Schissel : bowl listen 03:47, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

I put it on the talk page. I will put here again for you .It is the same party. Please don't un merge a page without discussion thanks Smith03 16:42, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

A humble request
I am asking if you will please remove the section in your userpage that implies that I wish to work as a prostitute/political consultant. Thanks MicahMN | Talk 22:07, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * A political consultant is a type of prostitute in that they sell themselves for money without regard to moral correctness. I will keep it on my user page as it is my opinion. EdwinHJ | Talk 22:12, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:U193581/Archive 3


text: User talk:68.44.83.230

title: User talk:68.44.83.230


text:
Francis Richard Plunkett

Sir Francis Richard Plunkett (3 February 1835 – 28 February 1907) was an Anglo-Irish diplomat.

Early life
Plunkett was born at Corbalton Hall in County Meath, Ireland. He was the youngest son of Arthur Plunkett, 9th Earl of Fingall and Louisa Emilia Corbally, daughter of Elias Corbally of Corbalton. He was educated at St Mary's College, Oscott.

Family
He married Mary Tevis Morgan, daughter of Charles Wain Morgan of Philadelphia and his wife Heloise Tevis, in 1870. She died in 1924. They had two daughters, Norah and Helen. Norah married the Swedish diplomat Count August Gyldenstolpe, Swedish Envoy to France 1905-1918. Helen never married.

Career
Plunkett entered the diplomatic service in 1855. In 1873, he was nominated as Secretary of Legation in Tokyo under Sir Harry Parkes. He left Tokyo in 1876 and served as Diplomatic Secretary in St Petersburg, Constantinople and Paris before being appointed Parkes's successor in Japan. He was noted for kindness and affability, which made him a great success in each of his diplomatic missions.

Plunkett was the British Minister in Tokyo, 1884–87, He was made a Knight Commander of the Order of St Michael and St George while in Tokyo.

In 1900 he was appointed Ambassador at Vienna. The following year he was appointed to the Privy Council in February 1901, and was created a Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath (GCB) on 9 November 1901.

He retired in 1905 and died of heart failure in Paris in 1907, after suffering from a bout of influenza.

title: Francis Richard Plunkett


text:
Talk:Civil union in New Zealand

Untitled
I moved this to the plural to accord with the other articles on this subject, viz. Civil unions in Quebec, Civil unions in the United Kingdom, et seq. - Montréalais 07:15, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I think technically they should all be singular, since it's the Wikipedia standard. You'd expect "Marriage in New Zealand" not "Marriages in New Zealand". I might be oversimplifying it though. Ben Arnold 20:22, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It would be quite good to have a list of the names of MPs who voted for and against, as well as the party breakdown. —Christiaan 13:56, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

From Hansard 9 December 2004 (P) marks proxy votes I think:

"A personal vote was called for on the question, That the Civil Union Bill be now read a third time.

Ayes 65

Anderton (P) Barker Barnett Benson-Pope Beyer Bradford (P) Burton Carter C Chadwick Choudhary (P) Clark (P) Coddington Cullen Cunliffe (P) Dalziel Donald Donnelly (P) Duncan Dyson Ewen-Street (P) Fairbrother Fitzsimons (P) Gallagher Goff (P) Gosche Hartley Hawkins Hereora Hide Hobbs Hodgson Horomia (P) Hughes Hunt Kedgley King Laban (P) Locke (P) Mackey J Mackey M Maharey (P) Mahuta Mallard (P) Okeroa (P) Parker Peck Pettis Pillay Prebble Rich (P) Ririnui (P) Robson Roy (P) Samuels (P) Shirley Simich Sutton (P) Swain (P) Tanczos Tizard Turei (P) Ward Wilson Wong (P) Yates

Noes 55

Adams (P) Alexander (P) Ardern (P) Baldock Brash (P) Brown Brownlee Carter D (P) Carter J (P) Catchpole Collins (P) Connell (P) Copeland Cosgrove (P) Dunne (P) Duynhoven Eckhoff (P) English (P) Field (P) Franks Goudie (P) Gudgeon (P) Heatley Hutchison Jones Key (P) Mapp Mark McCully (P) McNair Newman (P) Oconnor (P) Ogilvy (P) Paraone (P) Perry (P) Peters J (P) Peters W (P) Power (P) Robertson (P) Ryall (P) Scott Smith L Smith M Smith N Sowry (P) Stewart (P) Tamihere (P) te Heuheu (P) Tisch Turia (P) Turner (P) Wang (P) Williamson Woolerton (P) Worth (P)

Sorry, am no good with tables so you'll have to figure out how to put it in the articl. Lisiate 01:10, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think this article also needs to mention the Relationships Bill which has not been passed since this is the important part which will ensure complete recognition etc of a Civil Union... User:60.234.141.76

Could we agree that when describing who CUs apply to it isn't heterosexual and homosexual couples, but same-sex and opposite-sex couples? The law in question doesn't discuss sexual orientation, just relationship composition. I will edit on this basis unless there is great objection. Tweakie 24 August 2005

Absolutely. Be bold and fix it. Don't feel you have to ask permission. You make a good point though, and mentioning it on the talk page is a good idea. (By the way I took the liberty of moving your signature to after your comment, which is the normal style for these talk pages. Did you know you can generate the signature by typing four tildes: ~ .) Ben Arnold 00:23, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Cheers Ben - I had wondered about the signature :-) Tweakie 09:56, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Merger Suggestion
The article Civil Union Act 2004 is a stub and expanding it would just create an article almost identical to this one, I suggest merging the two, what do others think? Lossenelin 04:32, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Good suggestion - I think you should keep "Civil Unions in NZ" and redirect Civil Union Act 2004 there. Kiwimw 06:32, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Good idea, no one has objected so I'll go ahead. I'll make the link to Civil Union Act in this article an external link to the act to aviod an infinate loop. Lossenelin 00:32, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Another merger proposal
It is proposed to merge the articles on Same-sex marriage in New Zealand and Civil unions in New Zealand into a new (to be created) article called Recognition of gay unions in New Zealand. In order not to prejudge the result of the discussion I haven't created this article yet. Other suggestions for the name of the destination article are welcome.

This is part of a general proposed merger of the "Same-sex marriage in..." with the "Civil unions in..." series. Any general points can be discussed in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies.

In essence these articles deal with the same subject matter and unified articles could deal more comprehensively with the topic and avoid unnecessary repetition. Caveat lector 23:52, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

 * Seems reasonable, especially if it's part of a wider merger. --Helenalex 22:55, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

 * The two articles have substantially different content at present, and other than fitting in with the more general standards for such articles on other countries, I see no pressing reason for a change.

 * If the articles are merged, then as civil unions affect heterosexual as well as gay couples the title should reflect this. A title of "Same-sex marriage and civil unions in New Zealand" would be fine.- gadfium 06:21, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

 * I agree with Gadfium, the title needs to reflect that there are also opposite-sex civil unions in New Zealand for a variety of reasons. NZ forever 23:41, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

 * I would object to such merging, on the basis that while the Civil Union Act 2004 and Relationships (Statutory References) Act 2005 both provided parallel secular recognition ceremonies, documentation and acqusition of rights and responsibilities parallel to heterosexual marriage, the Marriage Act 1955 still discriminates against same-sex couples. Granted, LGBT New Zealanders use terms like "tie the knot", "get hitched", "nuptials" or other colloquialisms for our civil unions, but for the moment anyway, marriage is closed to us as a ritual and ceremonial option.

Actually, here's an idea, too. There tend to be a range of opinions toward the status quo within LGBT New Zealand. Some of us regard same-sex marriage as a more or less residual issue, and would prioritise adoption law reform as the chief remaining issue of discrimination against our communities, while others regard the continued exclusion of LGBT New Zealanders from the Marriage Act 1955 as unacceptable discrimination. In time, I imagine that as with the proposed Wikipedia category merger, same sex marriage proper will arrive in New Zealand, and there will be no reason for civil unions as a parallel institution. Unfortunately, though, that will have to wait until parliamentary composition is sufficiently favourable to permit such reforms, inevitable as they seem to be, judging from other jurisdictions. Calibanu 01:00, 12 September 2007 (UTC) [User Calibanu] 12.42, 12 September 2007 (NZST)

title: Talk:Civil union in New Zealand


text:
Vinnie Paul

Vincent Paul Abbott (March 11, 1964 – June 22, 2018) was an American musician best known for being the drummer and co-founder of the heavy metal band Pantera. He also co-founded Damageplan in 2003 with his younger brother, "Dimebag" Darrell Abbott, and was a member of Hellyeah for 12 years from 2006 until his death in 2018.

Several rock media outlets have ranked Abbott as among the greatest metal drummers of all time.

Early years
Vincent Paul Abbott was born in Abilene, Texas, on March 11, 1964. His parents were Jerry, a country music songwriter and producer, and Carolyn Abbott. Abbott originally played the tuba after being assigned to it in school band class, but was directed towards the drums by his father who said there were no career prospects for a tuba player. His father bought him his first drum kit.

Abbott cited Peter Criss, Alex Van Halen and Tommy Aldridge as his biggest influences as a drummer.

Pantera
Abbott formed the heavy metal band Pantera in 1981 with his brother Darrell Abbott and Terry Glaze on guitars, bassist Tommy D. Bradford, and vocalist Donnie Hart. Upon Hart's departure, Terry Glaze assumed vocal duties. In the summer of 1982, Bradford left the band and was succeeded by Rex Brown. The band released three albums with that lineup.

Pantera recruited vocalist Phil Anselmo in 1987 and released Power Metal (album) in 1988. By 1990, the band had been signed to Atco Records and released Cowboys from Hell, which proved to be the band's turning point. Over the course of four more studio records, a live album and a greatest hits compilation, Anselmo and Pantera were nominated for four best metal performance Grammys for the songs "I'm Broken", "Suicide Note Pt. I", "Cemetery Gates", and "Revolution Is My Name".

In 2001, Anselmo decided to put Pantera on hold because of back pain while he toured and recorded with his side projects. Pantera's official disbandment took place in 2003 for several reasons, but mainly because of the ongoing dispute between Anselmo and the Abbott brothers, although Rex Brown remained neutral. In the years to follow, animosity would stir up between Abbott and Anselmo although Anselmo had publicly announced that he wished for Abbott to forgive him and reform a friendship. However, Abbott stated that he was not interested in speaking to Anselmo.

Damageplan
After the breakup of Pantera, the Abbott brothers formed the heavy metal band Damageplan with former tattoo artist Bob Zilla on bass and former Halford guitarist Pat Lachman on lead vocals. Damageplan recorded one album, New Found Power, which was released on February 10, 2004. The song "Ashes to Ashes", a collaboration with Alice in Chains guitarist/vocalist Jerry Cantrell, was not completed in time to be featured on the album, but it was featured on the soundtrack to the 2004 film The Punisher, and was a bonus track on the Japanese version of New Found Power.

On December 8, 2004, while on tour to support Damageplan's album, Darrell was shot and killed along with three others by Nathan Gale at the Alrosa Villa in Columbus, Ohio. Damageplan disbanded shortly thereafter. In a 2016 interview with Loudwire, Abbott revealed that there are five unreleased Damageplan tracks that were meant for the band's second album that was set to be released in 2005, but that those tracks have no vocals, only him and Darrell playing on them. Abbott said that he didn't know what to do with those tracks, but he often thought about having some of Darrell's favorite singers like Rob Halford of Judas Priest and Chris Cornell of Soundgarden to record vocals for the songs, but he didn't have time to do it because he was focused on his band Hellyeah.

Hellyeah

After the death of Darrell, Abbott formed Big Vin Records in February 2006 and released Rebel Meets Rebel and a DVD, Dimevision, Volume 1. Abbott, along with Cristina Scabbia (co-lead vocalist of Lacuna Coil), wrote a monthly question-and-answer column in Revolver. Abbott maintained endorsement deals with ddrum, Sabian cymbals, and Vic Firth drumsticks. He previously endorsed Tama, Pearl drums, and Remo drumheads and hardware.

In June 2006, after an 18-month hiatus, Abbott was not sure if he would return to music, but eventually joined the heavy metal supergroup Hellyeah, which featured vocalist Chad Gray and guitarist Greg Tribbett from Mudvayne, guitarist Tom Maxwell from Nothingface, and bassist Bob Zilla from Damageplan, who was a replacement for original bassist Jerry Montano. Abbott recorded six studio albums with the band. In May 2019, it was announced that Hellyeah would tour for the first time since Abbott's death to support the final album he recorded with the band, Welcome Home. Stone Sour drummer Roy Mayorga was chosen as Abbott's replacement.

Collaborations
In 1995, he mixed the songs "Narcissiques anonymes" and "Nits" on Ego, the first album of a Quebec metal band called TSPC.

In November 2008, he handpicked several of his most memorable drum parts to demonstrate in a promotional video for the drum company ddrum: "Use My Third Arm", "Primal Concrete Sledge", "13 Steps to Nowhere", "Domination", and "Becoming". In 2009, he started American Drummer Champions with the aide of friend and influence M. Ludowise, former Downset drummer.

In August 2013, Abbott was featured in a music video for Black Label Society's cover of "Ain't No Sunshine", appearing alongside a horse-masked Zakk Wylde. Wylde and Abbott were well known to be close friends, with Wylde also having been particularly close with Abbott's brother Darrell before his death in 2004.

For several years, Abbott had been trying to publish a cookbook called Drumming up an Appetite with Vinnie Paul.

Death
On June 22, 2018, Abbott died at his Las Vegas home at the age of 54. It was later revealed that Abbott had died from "dilated cardiomyopathy and coronary artery disease." News of his death was initially released on the official Pantera Facebook page, stating his association with the bands Pantera, Damageplan, and Hellyeah, along with a statement requesting that the privacy of his family be respected. Five days before his death, Abbott's final performance took place at The Vinyl at the Hard Rock Hotel and Resort in Las Vegas.

Following his death, tributes from all over the metal community began pouring in, including members of Black Sabbath, Guns N' Roses, Metallica, Megadeth, Alice in Chains, Lamb of God, Periphery, Slipknot, Avenged Sevenfold, the Acacia Strain, In Flames, and many others. He is buried beside his mother, Carolyn, and brother, Darrell, at Moore Memorial Gardens Cemetery in Arlington, Texas. In late 2020, a protective fence was installed around the Abbott burial ground in an effort to stop vandalism; years earlier, following the defacing of his brother's grave, Abbott had remarked that the vandalism was "a real disrespectful thing".

Equipment
Abbott used Tama drums during the Cowboys from Hell album and tour from 1990 until 1992. On the Vulgar Display of Power and Far Beyond Driven albums and tours respectively, he used Remo drums. Abbott endorsed Remo until The Great Southern Trendkill, when he changed his endorsement to Pearl drums. He endorsed Pearl from 1996 until 2008, when he made his latest change to ddrum. Abbott used Sabian cymbals and Vic Firth drumsticks throughout his career. He played the drumsticks backwards, holding the tapered end of the sticks. The tapered ends were carved to give extra grip. Abbott was also known for using triggered samples mixed with live-miced drums during live shows. Starting in 2010, he used a ddrum Vinnie Paul signature series drum kit, with Evans drum heads, drum hardware, ddrum and Roland electronics, and Danmar red wood beaters and kick pads.

Damageplan

 * New Found Power (2004)

David Allan Coe and Cowboys from Hell

 * Rebel Meets Rebel (2006)

title: Vinnie Paul