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Albendazole

Albendazole is a broad-spectrum antihelmintic and antiprotozoal agent of the benzimidazole type. It is used for the treatment of a variety of intestinal parasite infections, including ascariasis, pinworm infection, hookworm infection, trichuriasis, strongyloidiasis, taeniasis, clonorchiasis, opisthorchiasis, cutaneous larva migrans, giardiasis, and gnathostomiasis, among other diseases.

Common side effects include nausea, abdominal pain, and headache. Rare but potentially serious side effects include bone marrow suppression which usually improves on discontinuing the medication. Liver inflammation has been reported and those with prior liver problems are at greater risk. It is pregnancy category D in Australia, meaning it may cause harm if taken by pregnant women.

Albendazole was developed in 1975. It is on the World Health Organization's List of Essential Medicines.

Medical uses
Albendazole is an effective treatment for:
 * Flatworms
 * Clonorchiasis
 * Fasciolosis
 * Opisthorchiasis
 * Cestodes (tapeworms), as an alternative to praziquantel or niclosamide for adult beef tapeworms and as an alternative to praziquantel for pork tapeworms. It is also given for infections by T. crassiceps. Though praziquantel is often better at treating tapeworm infections, albendazole is used more often in endemic countries due to being cheaper and having a broader spectrum.
 * Cysticercosis (especially neurocysticercosis), which is caused by the larval form of the pork tapeworm (i.e. albendazole is the drug of choice for larval pork tapeworms, but not adult pork tapeworms). Old cysts are not affected.
 * Echinococcosis of the liver, lung, and peritoneum (caused by the larval form of the dog tapeworm, or of the alveoli (caused by E. multilocularis) when surgical excision is not possible. Alveolar and cystic echinococcosis may require lifelong treatment with albendazole, which only prevents the parasites from growing and reproducing rather than killing them.
 * Nematodes
 * Anatrichosomiasis
 * Angiostrongyliasis
 * Anisakiasis
 * Ascariasis, which can be cured with a single dose of albendazole.
 * Baylisascariasis, caused by the raccoon roundworm. Albendazole can achieve good results (95–100% efficacy after a 10-day course of treatment) if treatment is initiated within 72 hours of ingestion of the egg-containing raccoon feces. Corticosteroids are sometimes added in cases of eye and CNS infections.
 * Pinworm infection
 * Filariasis; since albendazole's disintegration of the microfilariae ("pre-larva") can cause an allergic reaction, antihistamines or corticosteroids are sometimes added to treatment. In cases of lymphatic filariasis (elephantiasis) caused by Wuchereria bancrofti or Brugia malayi, albendazole is sometimes given as an adjunct to ivermectin or diethylcarbamazine in order to suppress microfilaremia. It can also be given for Loa loa filariasis as an adjunct or replacement to diethylcarbamazine. Albendazole has an embryotoxic effect on Loa loa adults and thus slowly reduces microfilaremia.
 * Gnathostomiasis when caused by Gnathostoma spinigerum. Albendazole has a similar effectiveness to ivermectin in these cases, though it needs to be given for 21 days rather than the 2 days needed for ivermectin.
 * Gongylonemiasis
 * Hepatic capillariasis caused by Capillaria hepatica
 * Hookworm infections, including cutaneous larva migrans caused by hookworms of genus Ancylostoma. A single dose of albendazole is sufficient to treat intestinal infestations by A. duodenale or Necator americanus.
 * Intestinal capillariasis, as an alternative to mebendazole
 * Mansonelliasis when caused by Mansonella perstans. Albendazole is effective against adult worms but not against the immature microfilariae.
 * Oesophagostomumiasis, when caused by Oesophagostomum bifurcum
 * Strongyloidiasis, as an alternative to ivermectin or thiabendazole. Albendazole can be given with diethylcarbamazine to lower microfilaremia levels.
 * Toxocariasis, also called "visceral larva migrans", when caused by the dog roundworm Toxocara canis or cat roundworm T. catis. Corticosteroids can be added in severe cases, and surgery might be required to repair secondary damage.
 * Trichinosis, when caused by Trichinella spiralis or T. pseudospiralis. Albendazole has a similar efficacy to thiabendazole, but fewer side effects. It works best when given early, acting on the adult worms in the intestine before they generate larva that can penetrate the muscle and cause a more widespread infection. Corticosteroids are sometimes added on to prevent inflammation caused by dying larva.
 * Trichostrongyliasis, as an alternative to pyrantel pamoate. A single dose is sufficient for treatment.
 * Trichuriasis (whipworm infection), sometimes considered as an alternative to mebendazole and sometimes considered to be the drug of choice. Only a single dose of albendazole is needed. It can also be given with ivermectin.
 * Giardiasis, as an alternative or adjunct to metronidazole, especially in children
 * Microsporidiosis, including ocular microsporidiosis caused by Encephalitozoon hellem or E. cuniculi, when combined with topical fumagillin
 * Granulomatous amoebic encephalitis, when caused by the amoeba Balamuthia mandrillaris, in combination with miltefosine and fluconazole
 * Arthropods
 * Crusted scabies, when combined with topical crotamiton and salicylic acid
 * Head lice infestation, though ivermectin is much better
 * Intestinal myiasis

Though albendazole is effective in treating many diseases, it is only FDA-approved for treating hydatid disease caused by dog tapeworm larvae and neurocysticercosis caused by pork tapeworm larvae.

Pregnancy
Albendazole is a pregnancy class D drug in Australia. It is contraindicated in the first trimester of pregnancy, and should be avoided up to one month before conception. While studies in pregnant rats and rabbits have shown albendazole to be teratogenic, albendazole has been found to be safe in humans during the second and third trimesters. It can, however, possibly cause infantile eczema when given during pregnancy.

In pregnant dogs, albendazole use has led to puppies with reduced weight and with cleft palates. Birds have lower rates of laying eggs and hatching when given albendazole.

Albendazole sulfoxide is secreted into breast milk at around 1.5% of the maternal dose, though oral absorption is poor enough that it is unlikely to affect nursing infants.

Contraindications
Hypersensitivity to the benzimidazole class of compounds contraindicates its use.

Side effects
The most common side effects of albendazole are experienced by over 10% of people and include headache and abnormal liver function. Elevation of liver enzymes occurs in 16% of patients receiving treatment specifically for hydatid disease and goes away when treatment ends. Liver enzymes usually increase to two to four times the normal levels (a mild to moderate increase). An estimated 1–10% of people experience abdominal pain, nausea or vomiting, dizziness or vertigo, increased intracranial pressure, meningeal signs, temporary hair loss, and fever. The headache, nausea, and vomiting are thought to be caused by the sudden destruction of cysticerci (tapeworm larvae), which causes acute inflammation. Fewer than 1% of people get hypersensitivity reactions such as rashes and hives, leukopenias (drop in white blood cell levels) such as agranulocytosis and granulocytopenia, thrombocytopenia (reduced platelet count), pancytopenia (drop in white blood cells, red blood cells, and platelets), hepatitis, acute liver failure, acute kidney injury, irreversible bone marrow suppression, and aplastic anemia.

Side effects can be different when treating for hydatid disease versus neurocysticercosis: for example, those being treated for the former are more likely to experience elevated liver enzymes and abdominal pain, while those being treated for the latter are more likely to experience headache. Treating hydatid disease can also unmask undiagnosed neurocysticercosis. People receiving albendazole for the treatment of neurocysticercosis can have neurological side effects such as seizures, increased intracranial pressure, and focal signs caused by the inflammatory reaction that occurs when parasites in the brain are killed. Steroids and anticonvulsants are often given with albendazole when treating neurocysticercosis to avoid these effects. Those being treated for retinal neurocysticercosis can face retinal damage if they are not first checked for ocular cysticeri, since changes to existing lesions in the eye by albendazole can cause permanent blindness.

Overdose
Because of its low solubility, albendazole often cannot be absorbed in high enough quantities to be toxic. The oral LD50 of albendazole in rats was found to be 2,500 mg/kg. It takes 20 times the normal dose to kill a sheep, and 30 times the normal dose to kill cattle. Overdose affects the liver, testicles, and GI tract the most. It can manifest with lethargy, loss of appetite, vomiting, diarrhea, intestinal cramps, dizziness, convulsions, and sleepiness. There is no specified antidote.

Interactions
The antiepileptics carbamazepine, phenytoin, and phenobarbital lower the plasma concentration and half-life of albendazole sulfoxide's R(+) enantiomer.

The antacid cimetidine heightens serum albendazole concentrations, increases the half-life of albendazole, and doubles albendazole sulfoxide levels in bile. It was originally thought to work by increasing albendazole bioavailability directly; however, it is now known that cimetidine inhibits the breakdown of albendazole sulfoxide by interfering with CYP3A4. The half-life of albendazole sulfoxide thus increases from 7.4 hours to 19 hours. This might be a helpful interaction on more severe cases, because it boosts the potency of albendazole. Paradoxically, cimetidine also inhibits the absorption of albendazole by reducing gastric acidity.

Several other interactions exist. Corticosteroids increase the steady-state plasma concentration of albendazole sulfoxide; dexamethasone, for example, can increase the concentration by 56% by inhibiting the elimination of albendazole sulfoxide. The anti-parasitic praziquantel increases the maximum plasma concentration of albendazole sulfoxide by 50%, and the anti-parasitic levamisole increases the AUC (total drug exposure) by 75%. Grapefruit inhibits the metabolism of albendazole within the intestinal mucosa. Finally, long-term administration of the antiretroviral ritonavir, which works as a CYP3A4 inhibitor, decreases the maximum concentration of albendazole in the plasma as well as the AUC.

Mechanism of action
As a vermicide, albendazole causes degenerative alterations in the intestinal cells of the worm by binding to the colchicine-sensitive site of β-tubulin, thus inhibiting its polymerization or assembly into microtubules (it binds much better to the β-tubulin of parasites than that of mammals). Albendazole leads to impaired uptake of glucose by the larval and adult stages of the susceptible parasites, and depletes their glycogen stores. Albendazole also prevents the formation of spindle fibers needed for cell division, which in turn blocks egg production and development; existing eggs are prevented from hatching. Cell motility, maintenance of cell shape, and intracellular transport are also disrupted. At higher concentrations, it disrupts the helminths' metabolic pathways by inhibiting metabolic enzymes such as malate dehydrogenase and fumarate reductase, with inhibition of the latter leading to less energy produced by the Krebs cycle. Due to diminished ATP production, the parasite is immobilized and eventually dies.

Some parasites have evolved some resistance to albendazole by having a different set of acids constituting β-tubulin, decreasing the binding affinity of albendazole. Some parasites (especially filarial nematodes) live in symbiosis with Wolbachia, a type of intracellular parasite bacteria. In such cases the Wolbachia are necessary to the survival of the parasitic worms. Elimination of Wolbachia from these filarial nematodes generally results in either death or sterility of the host nematode.

Pharmacokinetics
Oral absorption of albendazole varies among species, with 1–5% of the drug being successfully absorbed in humans, 20–30% in rats, and 50% in cattle.

The absorption also largely depends on gastric pH. People have varying gastric pHs on empty stomachs, and thus absorption from one person to another can vary wildly when taken without food. Generally, the absorption in the GI tract is poor due to albendazole's low solubility in water. It is, however, better absorbed than other benzimidazole carbamates. Food stimulates gastric acid secretion, lowering the pH and making albendazole more soluble and thus more easily absorbed. Oral absorption is especially increased with a fatty meal, as albendazole dissolves better in lipids, allowing it to cross the lipid barrier created by the mucus surface of the GI tract. To target intestinal parasites, albendazole is taken on an empty stomach to stay within the gut.

Absorption is also affected by how much of the albendazole is degraded within the small intestine by metabolic enzymes in the villi. The pharmacokinetics of albendazole differ slightly between men and women: women have a lower oral clearance and volume of distribution, while men have a lower serum peak concentration.

Albendazole undergoes very fast first-pass metabolism in all species, such that the unchanged drug is undetectable in plasma. Most of it is oxidized into albendazole sulfoxide (also known as ricobendazole and albendazole oxide ) in the liver by cytochrome P450 oxidases (CYPs) and a flavin-containing monooxygenase (FMO), which was discovered later. In humans, the cytochrome P450 oxidases are thought to include CYP3A4 and CYP1A1, while those in the rats are thought to be CYP2C6 and CYP2A1.

Oxidation to albendazole sulfoxide by FMO produces R(+) enantiomers, while oxidation the cytochromes and by some enzymes in the gut epithelium produce S(−). Different species produce the R(+) and S(−) enantiomers in different quantities; humans, dogs, and most other species produce the R(+) enantiomer more (with the human AUC ratio being 80:20). Compared to the S(−) enantiomer, the R(+) has greater pharmacological activity, lasts longer in the bloodstream, is found in higher concentrations in the infected host tissues, and is found in higher concentrations within the parasites themselves. Some albendazole is also converted to hydroxyalbendazole, mainly by CYP2J2.

For systemic parasites, albendazole acts as a prodrug, while albendazole sulfoxide reaches systemic circulation and acts as the real antihelminthic. Albendazole sulfoxide is able to cross the blood–brain barrier and enter the cerebrospinal fluid at 43% of plasma concentrations; its ability to enter the central nervous system allows it to treat neurocysticercosis.

Albendazole sulfoxide is converted to the inactive albendazole sulfone by cytochrome P450 oxidases, thought to include CYP3A4 or CYP2C. Other inactive metabolites include: 2-aminosulfone, ω-hydroxysulfone, and β-hydroxysulfone. The major final metabolites that are excreted by humans are: There are also some minor hydroxylated sulfated or glucuronidated derivatives. No unchanged albendazole is excreted, as it is metabolized too quickly.
 * methyl [5-(propylsulfonyl-1H-benzimidazol-2-yl)] carbamate,
 * methyl [6-hydroxy 5-(n-propylsulfonyl)-1H-benzimidazole-2-yl)] carbamate,
 * methyl [5-(n-propylsulfinyl)-1H-benzimidazole-2-yl)] carbamate,
 * 5-(n-propylsulfonyl)-1H-benzimidazole-2-yl amine, and
 * 5-(n-propysulfinyl)-1H-benzimidazole-2-yl amine.

In humans, the metabolites are excreted mostly in bile, with only a small amount being excreted in urine (less than 1%) and feces. In ruminants, 60–70% of the metabolites are excreted in urine.

Like all benzimidazoles, albendazole has no residual effect, and thus protects poorly against reinfestations.

History
Albendazole, patented in 1975, was invented by Robert J. Gyurik and Vassilios J. Theodorides and assigned to SmithKline Corporation. It was introduced in 1977 as an antihelminthic for sheep in Australia, and was registered for human use in 1982.

Brand names
Brand names include: Albenza, Alworm, Andazol, Eskazole, Noworm, Zentel, Alben-G, ABZ, Cidazole, Wormnil etc.

Economics
The pharmaceutical company Amedra increased the price after purchasing the rights to the drug, instead of lowering it as generics are predicted to do, drawing criticism from patients' rights advocates.

In 2013, GlaxoSmithKline donated 763 million albendazole tablets for the treatment and prevention of parasitic infections in developing countries, bringing the total to over 4 billion tablets donated since 1998.

Research
Albendazole and related compounds or metabolites like albendazole sulfone (ALB-SO2) exhibit antibacterial effects via an unknown, possibly FtsZ-related, mechanism. It inhibits division of Wolbachia and Mycobacterium tuberculosis, turning them into a long "filament" shape as they grow and fail to divide. Since Brugia malayi relies on symbiotic Wolbachia, this would mean that albendazole is targeting both the worm and its essential symbioant.

Veterinary use
Albendazole is mainly used in cattle and sheep, but has found some use in cats and dogs as well; it is also used in ratite birds for flagellate parasites and tapeworms. It is also used off-label to treat endoparasites in goats and pigs.

Albendazole has been used as an antihelminthic and for control of flukes in a variety of animal species, including cattle, sheep, goats, swine, camels, dogs, cats, elephants, poultry, and others. Side effects include anorexia in dogs and lethargy, depression, and anorexia in cats, with more than 10% of dogs and cats having anorexia. Of dogs and cats, 1–10% experience elevated liver enzymes, nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea. Less than 1% experience neutropenia or aplastic anemia, though these require a use of at least 5 days. While it is also associated with bone marrow suppression and toxicity in cats and dogs at high doses, albendazole has a higher margin of safety in other species. Thus, it is usually only prescribed in cats and dogs when an infection is present that is resistant to the commonly prescribed metronidazole and fenbendazole.

It is extensively used for ruminant livestock in Latin America. It is marketed for this purpose by Zoetis (formerly Pfizer Animal Health) in numerous countries (including the United States and Canada) as Valbazen in oral suspension and paste formulations; by Interchemie in the Netherlands and elsewhere as Albenol-100; by Channelle Animal Health Ltd. in the United Kingdom as Albex; and by Ravensdown in New Zealand (as Albendazole). Although most formulations are administered orally, Ricomax (ricobendazole, or albendazole sulfoxide) is administered by subcutaneous injection.

Albendazole has greater bioavailability in ruminants: some albendazole sulfoxide, when released back into the rumen, is reduced to albendazole by the resident microbiota, with a preference of the (+) enantiomer being the substrate. Cats and dogs, having no rumen reservoir, sometimes need higher or more frequent doses as compared to ruminants. In dogs, albendazole sulfoxide is detectable in the plasma for less than 12 hours, but in sheep and goats, it remains at measurable levels for around three days.

Meat
The limitations in early pregnancy are due to a limited period during which teratogenic effects may occur. Summarized research data relating to the durations of these preslaughter and early pregnancy periods when albendazole should not be administered are found in US FDA NADA 110-048 (cattle) and 140-934 (sheep). Some data and inferences regarding goats are found in US FDA Supplemental NADA 110-048 (approved January 24, 2008).

Maximum residue limits (MRLs) for albendazole in food, adopted by the FAO/WHO Codex Alimentarius in 1993, are 5000, 5000, 100, and 100 micrograms per kilogram of body weight (μg/kg) for kidney, liver, fat, and muscle, respectively, and 100 μg/L for milk. For analysis purposes, MRLs of various nations may pertain to concentration of a marker substance which has been correlated with concentrations of the administered substance and its metabolized products. For example, in Canada, the marker substance specified by Health Canada is albendazole-2-aminosulfone, for which the MRL in liver of cattle is 200 μg/kg.

There is a 27-day cattle withdrawal time for meat.

title: Albendazole


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Talk:Vizsla

Pronunciation
I think the pronunciation given is wrong, isn't it? I thought a zs in Magyar was prounced more like an S, so Vees-la? tharsaile 17:48, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

sz is 's', zs is 'zh'. rone 04:46, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

The approximation for 'zs' as in 'vision' is quite close. The 'a' should be pronounced like the 'o' in 'hot'.

Strictly speaking, the 'i' should be pronounced very short, also as in 'vision' and the 'a' is a neutral vowel sound like the schwa () in English. Thus, 'vizs ' as in 'vision', 'la ' as in 'lug.'

It should be 'la' as in 'Log' - same as aforementioned 'o' in 'hot' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.75.172.53 (talk) 19:21, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

 * I'm guessing these suggestions are meant to be understood in a North American context. For example, the 'o' in 'hot' is quite a different sound in American/Canadian English than it is in, say, British English. -- Hux (talk) 21:22, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

We have a Vizsla, and we always pronounced it Vish (Like saying shh) and la (like saying lamb) So it'd be like vish-la ExpertOnFun (talk) 20:46, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

AltaVizsla
The name is apt in another way, since "vizsla" is also translated as "to search" or "to seek". --Wesley R. Elsberry 02:25, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

NPOV
The first paragraph of the temperate section definitely does not have a neutral point of view. Mrmoocow 03:59, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I think it's about right, from an AKC-type point of view. You want to describe the ideal temperament, which this does. I think Mrmoocow is nit-picking.

I have owned a Vizsla for nearly 7 years and thoroughly agree with the first paragraph, it sums up the temperament of my dog very well. Alexdesalis Alexdesalis 09:45, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I mostly agree with the first paragraph. I could see how someone might read it as overly gushing, but it really does describe the breed. I have a 4 yr old female who is very much part of our family and is also a great hunter. My possible problems with the paragraph would be: (1) loyalty -- this breed is friendly with everyone. Not disloyal, but very happy to meet new people. In a new-person scenario, I'd expect a "loyal" dog to fall-in with his owner. All of the Vizlas I know scamper up to friendly lookin strangers and beg to be pet. (2) The Vizsla is a "versatile" breed; this ought to be noted. However, while they're excellent pointers, retrieving game takes training. It's definitely instinctive, but my dog, for example, marks a fallen bird, finds it, picks it up to finish the kill if need be, but isn't fond of taking time to run the bird back to me before continuing the hunt. -PC 3 Feb 2007

I've owned a female vizsla for 14 years. I agree with the description in general. Friendly to everyone, but loyal. (Though it is absolutely unsuitable as a guard dog.) It guards sick children, not allowing them to be approached only by the most trusted persons. - Valdez, from Hungary.

Actually if you all want to pay attention to the rules, the first paragraph is highly inaccurate. And the AKC description is an IDEAL description and must be stated as such, as in "The ideal Vizsla temperment is...." This entry in general is OBVIOUSLY written by an owner of a Vizsla and therefore biased in nature. All entries are subject to some bias as a person has to take an interest in the subject or it would not be an entry in a Wiki style "encyclopedia" and direct cut-n-pastes are frowned upon. To "Valdez, from Hungary...." Is that supposed to make you an authority on the breed? Highly irregular to name your country in an attempt to sway an article's description in one direction or another. To "-PC" I found your description to be opposite of my Vizsla's, mine would retrieve without training, I took her out to get her used to the gun, she accidentally flushed a pheasant, I shot the pheasant and she took off jumped into a small pond, which scared me as she had not been in anything but a tub as far as water, and she mouthed the pheasant and brought it back to me. I was a bit stunned, my hunting companion informed me that was pretty common with this breed. Getting her to point, a definition of frustration to be sure! She still 8 years later would prefer to never point but rather flush at will. AND FINALLY, every dog has their own characteristics and personalities just because your dog is friendly does not mean the breed in general is friendly, and visa-versa, just because you run into an ugly tempered dog it may not be indicative to the breed. 75.17.209.70 (talk) 14:36, 7 September 2009 (UTC)Jeff

punctuation correction in appearance and wirehair history section
Hi, can whoever created/updated the section on appearance, please remove all those dots? Also, this is the page for the vizsla, not just the wireharied version, can the description on the shorthaired breed be returned?

In the Wirehair history section, there is also some missing punctuation.

Thanks!

Allergies
At the request (via OTRS) of a breeder, I've removed the reference to the ambiguous term hypoallergenic from the article since it may mislead people with severe allergies into thinking the breed does not cause them. — Coren (talk) 05:15, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

There is NO DATA to support the statement that short-haired dogs cause less allergic symptoms. Allergies are dander, not hair mediated. The statement should be removed completely. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.1.242.179 (talk) 17:38, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Migrated Wire-haired Vizsla to a new article
Since the Wire-haired Vizsla is universally recognized as a different breed than the Vizsla, I have created an article for that separate breed and moved the appropriate information and images to that article. Briantresp (talk) 18:18, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Vizslas vs. Vizslak
Theres an err... if not edit war than edit altercation surrounding the use of the term "Vizslak." It seems pretty clear that Vislak is not an English word. It is not found in major dictionaries, whereas Vizslas can be found in all. The word is used on English websites, but perhaps it is a Hungarian word that is being partially integrated into English; but that integration is nowhere near complete. I can't say that I really care, but it doesn't appear that Vizslak should be included in the intro as the English plural, with or without the "rare" caveat.

Actually, its sorta funny that this is an issue. If you search for "define:Vizslak" you get nothing; if you put "Vizslak" into OED or dictionary.com, you get "Vizsla" as the closest hit (with Vizslas as plural). If you google "Vizslak," only the first uses "Vizslak" without qualification; #2 and #4 use "Vizslas" and #3 uses "Vizslak (plural for Vizsla apparently)" Even the AKC uses Vizslas. Seriously, this is an issue? --Thesoxlost (talk) 16:53, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It does seem to be standardized as Vizslas, but I find lots of English language sites that use Vizslak. ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:29, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

'Vizslak' is just plain wrong in the context that most snobby breeders in the UK and US use on their websites, Hungarians laugh at the crude use of this word, as the actual word is "vizslák" and even using the correct spelling (with the accents) isn't correct in this context.

To further qualify and explain this the Hungarian word 'vizslák' is only used as plural in a specific circumstance, 'vizslák' would be used when referring to several dogs, without a quantity. For example "breeders of fine Hungarian Vizslák" would be OK, but "I have 7 Vizslák" would not be OK also "I have many Vizslák" would be incorrect too (of course there are other nuances with Hungarian to English translation, but this should illustrate what I mean). OED says it is "Vizslas" if for some reason people need to misuse this Hungarian word on their own websites, then at least spell it correctly with the Hungarian letters.

(talk) 20:08, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

The posted pejorative references to "snobby breeders" being laughed at for their "crude use" of the word Vizslak is not especially erudite or neutral - do you know any of these breeders, what qualifies them as snobby rather than simply in error? - and the same goes for referring to use of the word as "spammy". Furthermore since this Wiki entry is in English, rather than Hungarian, the correct specifics of Hungarian pluralisations aren't necessarily what's important, ditto the use of the "á", since English doesn't employ accents. What is more relevant to an English language encyclopaedia is actual English language usage by those who are actively involved and influential in the breed(s).

The equally incorrect "Komondorok" seems now to be in such wide English language usage as to have established a precedent and this plural form is certainly found in English language dictionaries too. Its continued use is presumably unstoppable and the word has seemingly become legitimately Anglicised. "Vizslak" may or may not go the same way, but the word is in (limited but regular) use, and the Wiki article can legitimately reflect that usage.

The following reproduces what I've already posted on the Komondor discussion:

Here in the UK a number of leading kennels, certainly HWV kennels at any event, use the plural form Vizslak, often (though not always) to the exclusion of other plural forms. It is, clearly, the less frequently used plural form, but it is not rare per se and is also seemingly in usage across the English speaking world.

Qorilla contends that it is not an accurate or relevant plural form, which is clearly correct from a Hungarian perspective, so the question then is should the Wiki article reflect actual English usage (even if technically incorrect) or attempt to correct this apparently mistaken English language convention? In either event the term certainly warrants inclusion in the relevant articles but perhaps with an appropriate caveat or explanation.

As for Squash Racket's mention of Hunglish, and Qorilla's reference to a "ridiculous... pathetic mixture of languages" the conventional English names for the two Vizsla breeds are already a mixture of the two languanges. After all the Hungarian names are: Magyar Vizsla and Drotzörü Magyar Vizsla, and a full Anglicisation would see the breeds referred to as the Hungarian Pointer & Hungarian Wirehaired Pointer respectively - in the same way that the Deutscher Kurzhaariger Vorstehhund, Deutscher Drahthaariger Vorstehhund and Deutscher Langhaariger Vorstehhund are Anglicised as Shorthaired, Wirehaired and Longhaired German Pointers rather than as breeds of German Vorstehhund. This does not mean that either Vizsla or Vorstehhund literally translate into English as pointer (Vorstehhund is also used for all HPR breeds as well as for Setters) but rather that all of the breeds mentioned are forms of Pointer.

Finally it's worth considering that all languages are continually evolving and borrowing from one another and that basterdized and multi-lingual words regularly enter and are added to vocabularies, be they English or, indeed Hungarian. Also, bearing in mind that there are more HWV's in the UK (where the breed is undergoing something of a boom in popularity) than in any other single country, including their native Hungary, if some of the most influential English HWV kennels as well as the committee members of the Hungarian Wirehaired Vizsla Association maintain their usage of the word Vizslak, as they presumably will do, then a linguistic convention will become established.

Joviankid (talk) 19:51, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

My "snobby" comment the other day was a little tongue-in-cheek to be honest and wasn't really meant to be pejorative, I can speak on this subject as I'm British, and also involved with many Vizsla kennels in the UK (but I live in Hungary) and the 'Vizslak' thing is a particular bugbear of mine. You make very good points about the Anglicisation of the "Vizsla" word. Here in Hungary 'Vizsla' is a generic term for HPR breeds, Nemet Vizsla (German Vizsla), Olasz Vizsla (Bracco Italiano), Angol Vizsla (Englsh pointer) etc.etc. I suggest we describe it like it is (currently) in the Komondor page, something like "Hungarian plural: Vizslák".

Regarding the Hungarian Wirehaired Association, Google has indexed their site and shows many uses of the word "vizslas" but not a single instance of the word "vizslak", maybe they are waiting for the word to be officially recognised by an official body before writing it or placing it on their website? I've heard members of the HWVA say it in conversation, over dinner for example, that was often met with a growl under my breath ;)

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site%3Awww.hwva.org.uk+vizslas

vs

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=site%3Awww.hwva.org.uk+vizslák|vizslak

Also, that is an interesting statistic about the population of HWV being greater in the UK than in Hungary. I didn't know that, do you have any data or sources? I'd like to use that statistic elsewhere.

BTW I own all _three_ types of Hungarian Vizsla, Shorthaired, Longhaired and Wirehaired. Of course the 'longhaired' Vizsla I have is another can-of-worms that I don't want to open here ;)

Vauvau (talk) 07:35, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for identifying yourself on the above post, it's appreciated! Regarding the numbers of HWV's in the UK Vs. Hungary, the KC registration figures at:

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/3075/Quarterly-breed-stats-gundogs.pdf

show that there were 252 HWV's registered in 2007 and 362 registered in 2008 with that number likely to rise again in 2009.

In their "History of the Hungarian Wirehaired Vizsla" the Zöldmáli kennel - http://www.zoldmali.hu/ - who are, as far as I'm aware, the only breeders anywhere to have published a book about the breed, and who attempted to do a census of the numbers of HWV's in Hungary state:

"While the average number of SHVs born yearly in Hungary is around 1000 (in 2000 and 2001) the average number of HWVs is 30 litters, i.e. 140-150 dogs."

Regarding the HWVA, there are actually very few pluralisations (the Google search retrieves 6) used anywhere on the web-site, but I was thinking more in terms of the use on their own sites by movers and shakers in the Association, which is where I personally first came upon the English use of the term Vizslak.

Just to further muddy the waters this short article:

http://www.vizsladogs.com/ARTICLES/vizsla.htm

Suggests that Vizslak isn't truly Hungarian anyway, and also that, when referring to a specific number:

"Magyar use the singular form such as "hat vizsla""

which would surely mean that the true plural of Vizsla is neither Vizslak or Vizslas, but simply Vizsla!

Joviankid (talk) 10:44, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the stats, I have Zsófi's book here (I also have one of her pups here nibbling my toes), I'll have a look at that later.

Regarding the "hat vizsla" example, the Hungarian language is complicated in this respect, because the language is difficult and plurals can't really be compared directly to English, "hat vizsla" is true and means "six vizslas" but Hungarian has "Vizslák" when referring to several (without quantity). My wife (who is Hungarian) would say "Vizsláink vannak" for "We have Vizslas" with the 'i' and the 'n' making it collectively possessive while speaking for the two of us. There are lots of variants of this, sometimes depending on the situation etc, VERY complex for a Brit like myself! :-)

Vauvau (talk) 15:26, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Longhaired Vizsla
The longhaired Vizsla question is an interesting one. At:

http://vizsla.zoomin.se/index/69486.html

Katavizs states that it is seemingly a throwback to the Irish Setter genes that were introduced into the Vizsla by a kennel in the 1970's, but Irish Setter was also reputedly used in the creation of the HWV. Did yours originate from a smooth or wire stock?

Joviankid (talk) 10:44, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Now, we come onto the longhaired. There are lots of stories here about Irish Setters being used to redden the coats of shorthairs in Hungary, some say in the 70s some say in the 80s, lots of it is hearsay and nobody really knows, this rumour is thrown around often, I've heard it from one place about one kennel and another place about a totally different kennel. Nobody really knows as they would of course not admit to this introduction of non Vizslak ;) into the bloodline. The longhaireds I have here are from an impeccable bloodline, both parents are short-haired. In the litter there were 7 puppies, all the boys were shorthaired and the 3 girls were long-haired. The litter was DNA tested by a Hungarian geneticist who was interested in this subject. Some suggest the genetic fault being from a throwback from the 'yellow-dog' others suggest it is from the mish-mash of dogs that were supposedly introduced into the breed in the 1700-1800s, this was supposedly "Blood drop crossing" with Irish setters, labs and English pointers. Irish pointers for the speed, Labs for the retrieving and English pointers for the improved nose. Supposedly the white flash on the chest or the paws comes from the English pointer, also the facial features (stop etc.) are also coming from the English Pointer, again this is all highly controversial with no real evidence one way or the other. We are writing a paper/article on our findings relating to the longhairs.

Vauvau (talk) 15:26, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

In this article above the author - as always in cases when people get longhaired Vizslas - defends his dogs claiming that both parents are from "impeccable bloodline" and shorthaired. The author states that there are no evidence for Irish Setter mixing into the Vizslas only rumours, "nobody knows". That's wrong. There is evidence, there are evidences for certain breeders mixing Irish Setter to Vizsla. As long as people accept longhaires and keep on breeding with those bloodlines they will keep contaminating the true, purebred shorthaired Hungarian Vizslas, contributing to errase the breed. It would have been interesting to know what the conclusion of that Hungarian geneticist was after the DNA test.

Katavizs (talk) 16:41, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Katavizs, your comments illustrate the problem here, and I can tell from your nickname that you are probably Hungarian. Hungarians have a dim view and consider this part of the heritage of the breed to be "contaminating the true, purebred shorthaired Hungarian Vizslas". We didn't perpetuate or contaminate anything with these dogs, they were born to a really fantastic set of famous shorthaired parents, ones that you know doubt would know, ones that are champions in fact. They had not mated before and neither of them had produced longhairs previously. We all know that certain Hungarian breeders drown these genetic oddities that are called "longhairs" in buckets of water, so their existence is denied and brushed under the carpet, so finding examples of them is rare. Hungarians assume that having these dogs associated to a kennel is detrimental and could tarnish the name of that kennel. The dogs are pets, they won't be bred and as you know MEOE doesn't recognise these dogs here (even though they have DNA profiling to prove them as the daughters of the shorthaired dogs), my pedigree says "shorthaired vizsla". You talk about "proof" of the kennels introducing Irish Setters into the breed, yes this is a common story, but there is no documented proof of this, as I said before it is all HEARSAY. IF this did happen then the breeders would not admit to it as it would nullify their MEOE membership and probably ban them from every FCI event in the world. Yes, it is probable, and certainly Irish Setters or dogs that resembled them were probably used in the early creation of the breed WAY before the 1970s, but again, there isn't any ACTUAL proof of this because it would have happened before official records began. To put this into perspective the Weimaraner has a long-haired variety that looks almost identical to my girl (I mean in respect to the difference with long and short haired Vizslas) with the long haired fanning on the tail. My dog has stood next to a longhaired Weimaraner at a dog-show and the similarities are striking. The long haired gene in the Weimaraner is recessive and the long-hairs are recognised by most kennel clubs, the suggestion that the Weimaraner was mixed with an Irish setter isn't there, it is genetics, simple as that. You are interested what the Hungarian geneticist said? Well he was so interested by the initial tests that he wanted to study this litter and attempt to breed out the long-hair, into a replicable set of parents that could produce long-hairs again and again. Also, do you know that the private haplotypes were tested in my dog? Do you think they found private haplotypes of the Irish Setter? Do you think they found markers that identified Irish Setter? You'll have to await the contents of my paper to hear more.

Vauvau (talk) 19:06, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Your enormous, genuine knowledge about Hungarian people, Hungarian breeders and Hungarian Vizsla impresses me. To compare Vizsla with Weimaraner was also real good. I understand you do know what you are talking about. You must have hugh experience. However it might help even you if you sometimes read the official standard for the shorthaired Hungarian Vizsla. There is one, you know. Standard, I mean. Good luck and have a nice evening!

Katavizs (talk) 21:26, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm assuming this is sarcasm, which doesn't really help in this discussion. I wasn't comparing the Vizsla and the Weimaraner directly, in this discussion they have no relationship whatsoever, I was simply pointing out that the characteristics of the fanning of the tail was similar and long-haired Weimaraners are accepted, no mention of Irish Setter introduction there. Yes, of course there is a standard, I'm not trying to change the world, change the standard or even show or breed my long haired dog, she is a great pet and companion, that is good enough for me. But the fact of life is that these dogs exist, just like a variant of the Weimaraner with long hair exists. Genetics and nature is a wonderful thing, strange things happen, traits, faults and throwbacks exhibit themselves for no reason whatsoever, nothing is perfect.

Vauvau (talk) 22:03, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I was not aware of this being a discussion. I thought you were merely echoing the false information some very few breeders, who continuously get longhaired puppies, give to people to justify their faulty dogs and furthermore you were smearing all the Hungarian people and breeders. Like that thing with the bucket with water the “Hungarian breeders” have beside the mother who is giving birth to her Vizsla babies. You must be well aware of the fact, that one cannot see if a puppy will be longhaired until the puppy reaches the age of at least 2 weeks, so your statement that “Hungarian breeders” have buckets to drown the newborn longhaired puppies is entirely faulty. Besides it is quite outrageous to state such a thing about a whole nation’s breeders. You were very keen on “evidence” no hearsay, have you been sitting beside these breeders in Hungary, watching them to drown those innocent, sweet newborn babies or what evidence do you get for that malicious statement? Playing the smart one, “guessing” after my nickname, you wrote, that I was Hungarian, while you have been on my webpage (visitors’ IP number, you know….), reading my article about the longhaired Vizslas where I even wrote that I am a 53 years old Hungarian woman, what was that for a silly game? Saying that my comments represent the problem the Hungarian people’s dim view causes, while the problem is that there are longhaired dogs in a shorthaired breed. Would you have the same liberal and understanding point of view if someone told you he got some adorable longhaired Great Dane puppies? Or Boxer? Or Dalmatian? Or why not English Bulldoggs? Would you call them Great Danes, Boxers, Dalmatians or Bulldoggs? No. I would not be surprised knowing that the parents of your long haired puppies were champions. Because I already know that some of these popular “big winners” are carriers of longhaired genes, have progenies and siblings, who have long hair, but sadly the owners of those dogs keep on using them in breeding, creating fancy stories of how the longhaired Vizslas have always existed. So even though if you won’t breed your longhaired bitch, which is very sensible and quite honourable, there are others who do it anyway. And of course these longhair carrier dogs are winners, otherwise no one would breed with them. Many people fancy titles instead of the dog itself and his/her origins, lines. As for the evidence of mixing Irish Setter into the Vizsla I personally know people who were part of it, people who now disagree with what they had done or helped to do. I’ll not expose them here or anywhere else, it is up to them to step forward. At least we agree on one thing: Weimaraner have an entirely different origin and can not be compared to Vizslas, though even if you backed off, that was just exactly what you did. Vorsteh (German Pointers) and Weimaraner has always had longhairs, all three coat variations has always been accepted, recognized, while Hungarian Vizslas had only one coat, the short hair. For centuries and centuries. Historical facts. There has never ever been anything else but short haired Hungarian Vizslas until the 1980-ies, but if anybody has any historical written evidence of longhaired Hungarian Vizslas before that time, let them show it. It would be a real heavy trick, because there is none and never has been. Even the wirehaired Hungarian Vizsla is quite a new breed compared to the original Hungarian Vizsla, the shorthaired gundog of the Hungarians. In the 1920-ies there were some hunters who wanted to make a wirehaired variation of the Vizsla, and with permission from authorities they developed a wirehaired Hungarian Vizsla by mixing the wirehaired German Pointer to the Hungarian Vizsla. Openly and with permission. After many years of work the breed was accepted. Still there were only two coat variations for the Hungarian Vizsla, the short and the wire. My webpage is referred to in this Vizsla-talk (that’s how I found out about it at all), but here it is once more, just in case: http://vizsla.zoomin.se, I am not hiding behind the shadows of the Internet. Anybody can find me and contact me. Longhaired dogs after two Hungaria Vizsla parents are surely adorable pets and even very excellent gundogs, I wish all of them good life and love because every animal deserves it and their life is as much worth as any champion pedigree dog’s, but they are not the “third coat variation of the Hungarian Vizsla”, they are not traits, faults or throwbacks of nature but the work of humans in our time.

Katavizs (talk) 23:05, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Katavizs, yes it is a discussion, this is quite clearly indicated in the tab next to the "article" tab labelled "discussion" that you needed to press this in order to get here, oh and thanks for leaving the sarcasm behind, we'll probably get further without it. Regarding the 'bucket of water' I never mentioned that it was next to the Vizsla giving birth and I also said "certain Hungarian breeders" so I didn't tarnish all Hungarian breeders with this, even this is HEARSAY as it is a story I've been told about breeders disposing of the longhairs because of the stigma it will bring, I don't have evidence of anyone doing this, I don't have a signed statement from any breeders who have done this in the past, so it is just conjecture (exactly in the same way that you don't have such REAL proof of the introduction of Irish setters into the breed).

To be honest I hadn't read that you were Hungarian on your Swedish site, I didn't even know until later that the link that was quoted by Joviankid was your work. This wasn't any 'game' I noticed the name 'Kata' which is a common name here in Hungary, so I made an assumption. Kata, again, the 'Irish Setter' story is one of many that I hear every week, do you really think that the Magyar Vizsla just "arrived", all dogs are ultimately mongrels, they are bred and back-backbred to arrive at what we have today. As I said it is probable that Irish Setters were in the mix somewhere along the line, my girl certainly shares looks with the Irish Setter, she is sometimes mistaken for one, but the 1970s "darkening" story is one that can't be proven. The other long-hair next to me here doesn't look anything like an Irish Setter, but she is far more golden. I hear that "we have proof" and "we know which kennel". I hear from one kennel that it was X kennel and from a competitor of that kennel it was Y kennel. The stories conflict always, there is a lot of blaming and finger pointing. I'm looking now at your webpage and I've heard it said about a kennel of one of your dogs,that you quote on there as being the one that cross-bred the Irish Setter, this is one of 4 or 5 kennels that "were the ONLY kennel that did it". So it is all bullsh*t until someone exposes it with proof, or someone comes forward and admits this (which as I said before, will never happen). I have 3 or 4 people here in Budapest who "have proof" but they never ever come forward with it, it is an amplified and exaggerated story that gets worse with every shot of Pálinka.

Have you read Füzesiné Szegvári Zsuzsa's "A Magyar Vizsla"? There is an interesting section in there about this whole subject, I only have the book in Hungarian. I'll email her and ask her if I can translate it and put it somewhere for non-Hungarian speakers to read.

Finally I know all about the Wirehaired Vizsla, being an owner of one from one of the best kennels and also as being a member of MEOE Drótszőrű Magyar Vizsla Szakosztály. While we are on the subject of the Wirehaired, how would you explain the almost identical "long-hairs" with the same reddish coloring from Wirehaired parents? This happens occasionally too, this would mean a closely monitored and segregated bloodline from the 1920s has exhibited the same genetic throwbacks that are present in the shorthaired breed, no 1970s Irish Setter story there.

And I'll repeat again, these are traits, faults and throwbacks, if they are introduced by Humans or exhibit themselves naturally by genetic mutation, they are still there and won't be going anywhere as however it has happened these genes are so heavily proliferated that going backwards is impossible.

Vauvau (talk) 13:26, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

i sorry i new here but they have nice foto at this page of the Hosszúszörü Vizsla at http://longhairedvizsla.com maybe you can email them and use it

Docking
It says that a docked tail is the breed standard, but this is no longer the case in the U.K., or in any other civilised country. Salopian (talk) 23:05, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Does this section really need to include two paragraphs of argumentation against docking, though? It seems to me that this information belongs in the article on docking, not here, and the material after "(UK breed standard, for example)" and before "The docked tail of the Vizsla" should be cut. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.235.195.164 (talk) 23:03, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Fixed popular culture section
Why was Che from the Goode Family removed? I think he is a Vizsla my cousins owned several of them and they very much resembled him.173.18.28.177 (talk) 01:16, 23 June 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.18.28.177 (talk) 03:28, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I moved this down here because I ended up removing it with another mention in the PC section. There is nothing out there that proves that this specific cartoon dog is actually a vizsla. A cartoon dog appearing to look like one breed doesn't really mean much, as animals can look like several breeds and end up being something completely different. Unless we have a more official source, stuff like that shouldn't be added. I also removed the Clifford mention since I was unable to find anything to back this up other than a very brief mention in a non-official blog.Tokyogirl79 (talk) 14:29, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Picture
We don't like when authors put their own images in the lead. This is a very typical problem in dog articles. The lead picture should always have a standing dog, NOT a dog PORTRAIT. On top of everything this picture has a much to big thumb size and a black frame, and it is unbalanced, the dog is placed way to much to the right. OK, we keept this, but don't put that back into the lead, please.Hafspajen (talk) 08:19, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Reverting info
Discuss, not revert. Information sourced in several places. Hafspajen (talk) 20:27, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Media and Culture Theory - MDC 254
— Assignment last updated by Mosbug1 (talk) 02:23, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Vizsla


text:
Talk:Harrier (dog breed)

Untitled
See WikiProject Dog breeds.

Sourcing
Much of the text from this article was seemingly taken from: http://www.ridgecrest.ca.us/~auborn/harriers/harrier_info.html and as such, I am adding that link to the Article - Dleifelohcs 00:05, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

"Hares"?
Don't understand why the quotes. In English usage at least, a hare and a rabbit are not the same animal, and rabbit-hunting isn't a sport the way hare-hunting is. English rabbits go to ground in burrows. Hares dwell in "forms", above-ground lairs, and so can be chased with harriers. Rabbits, when hunted for sport (or the working-class table, traditionally), are hunted with terriers or ferrets, to either dig them out or catch them underground. Captain Pedant (talk) 19:25, 3 June 2008 (UTC) ETA: What the...? Where'd that go? Captain Pedant (talk) 19:29, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dogs which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:45, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Boxer (dog) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 08:03, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Harrier (dog breed)


text: Category:Latvian cuisine

title: Category:Latvian cuisine


text:
Talk:Greater Swiss Mountain Dog

Do not use "SWISSY"
"Swissy" is a common nickname for the breed. Apart from noting this fact in the article, there is no way one can refer to a breed by its (diminutive) nickname when using encyclopedic style. Therefore, please refrain from calling the breed a "Swissy" in this article - it simply does not fit the formal quality of writing that one expects from an encyclopedia article. --128.95.61.22 (talk) 19:46, 15 August 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.95.61.74 (talk)

See WikiProject Dog breeds.

I think the measures of the weight and height have to be checked since they aren't realistic and give a false image of this breed: the correct weight should be between 60-70kg(male) and 50-60kg(female) whereas the height at the shoulders is between 65-72cm(male) and 60-68cm(female).

I suspect there may be some factual errors under the "All-breed club recognition" heading, specifically with regards to dates given for some recognitions. It claims that the AKC gave this breed provisional recognition in 1999, yet full recognition in 1995? This seems backwards - anyone who knows the correct dates please fix this. Also, the past tense is used to refer to an event that hasn't yet occurred, or else another wrong date has been given. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.128.208.157 (talk) 18:04, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Images
I pared down the number of images down from five to two. The article is very short, so it does not need more than two images. Also the text was really crowded and unreadable between the images. --Coaster1983 (talk) 02:00, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * There is a gallery of pictures on Commons.

Temperament section
There is a proposal that Temperament sections be eliminated as they usually contain very similar vague and unreferenced platitudes. Please comment on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dogs.--Hafwyn (talk) 05:00, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Health section
The massive section regarding health problems seems out of place in this article; urinary incontinence, for example, is not specific enough to the breed to warrant an entire subsection. If the breed has relatively few health problems for its size, I don't understand why they're expounded upon in such great detail. Most of that information can be gleaned from the pages belonging to the diseases and disorders themselves.

I feel similarly about the appearance section. In nearly every sentence, there's a citation pointing to the same reference -- is this really necessary? I appreciate how detailed the article is in certain areas, but large chunks of the breed standard don't need to be included.

Also, this image is not at all specific to the breed and doesn't merit inclusion, nor does this one. Anndelion ( talk ) 23:21, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

 * I tried to make the article on the Greater Swiss Mountain Dog as comprehensive as I, as an owner, was looking for when I researched the breed. I don't feel that the health issues are overemphasized.

I counted over 10 references used in the appearance section. The dog anatomy diagram was included to illustrate where various body parts are located; there was no claim it is a diagram of a GWMD. The second illustration shows a dog used as a draft animal; again there is no claim it is a GSMD.. I wasn't able to find a quality photo of a GSMD used as a draft animal.Bettymnz4 (talk) 20:48, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

 * I understand where you're coming from, but I still don't feel that images not specific to the breed are really necessary to include. Any breed could make use of the anatomy chart, for example, and any Sennenhund could use the carting image (which would be more reasonable, in my opinion), but I feel like that would be overkill. I think the internal links do a good enough job of explaining these topics further if someone's interested.
 * Ditto with the health problems -- I think a summary of the issues the breed is known for, with internal links to their individual articles, would do the job just as well. Brief descriptions would be less intimidating and less off-topic than large
 * Finally, certain subsections in the Appearance section do cite the same reference after almost every sentence -- take a look at "Head" and you'll see what I mean. There are large chunks of the AKC's Swissie standard throughout that are barely reworded. Cutting them down a little bit, rephrasing everything, and removing the excessive references would probably do a lot of good for the section.
 * By the way, I see references to blue tricolor and rust bicolor Swissies -- I've never seen nor heard of any evidence of this. As far as I've known, the four SMD breeds only come in black tricolor (possibly with the occasional blue eyed dog popping up, although this is very rare and could be the result of outcrossing). Is there any proof of this, other than what that source says? If no images exist, I'm a little bit skeptical... I know they're listed as DQs/acceptable for alternate registration with the AKC, but like I said, I've never seen any evidence these colors really pop up in the breed. Outcrosses, perhaps? I'll try to look for images later today.
 * It's definitely a good article, one which outshines its fellow Sennenhund :) -- Anndelion  ( talk ) 12:54, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Anndelion, I see that you are focusing on improving dog articles. I almost totally revamped this article after I saw how incomplete it was for my needs. I was writing mostly geology articles, so writing a dog article was new territory for me. Please do go ahead and make the changes you feel would make this article conform with other dog articles. Thank you for your interest and committment to dogs!! Bettymnz4 (talk) 13:19, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

 * Thank you! Will do. -- Anndelion  ( talk ) 02:56, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

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4 Breeds of Sennenhund
Hello, I'm a student editor working on the Bernese page. I changed the "Breeds of Sennenhund Dogs" section to look like the other Sennenhund dog pages, which just list their name and common English name. I don't think it needs to say the sizes of other breeds of dog on the GSMD dog. Any feedback is appreciated. SoldBuyChristina (talk) 20:27, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

Age
I’m not sure about the average age. for us our female greater Swiss is coming up on 14 years old, over double the average, maybe we are an outlier but just curious if that’s the case or not. 75.72.237.110 (talk) 16:25, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Copyright issue.
It seems that the majority of appearance has been plagiarised, I'm in the process of confirming which parts are and aren't and removing them. A lot of the article is the same as https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=2O45BgAAQBAJ&pg=PA79&lpg=PA79&dq=%22the+dog+is+agile+enough+to+perform+the%22&source=bl&ots=K21vDLrshM&sig=ACfU3U25vLdJjB7PcokxkYBC0vSRp_G4bA&hl=en#v=onepage&q=%22the%20dog%20is%20agile%20enough%20to%20perform%20the%22&f=false but it appears that these insertions are older than this book, which means either this book copied from Wikipedia or there is an older version of it and it was republished.

@Justlettersandnumbers I've seen you deal with copyright violation before. Traumnovelle (talk) 09:42, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

 * https://web.archive.org/web/20130307144226/http://www.gsmdca.org/breed-information/history This site may potentially have either taken content from Wikipedia or content from it was used on the article. Hard to tell given I cannot find a publication date for the website/url. Traumnovelle (talk) 10:13, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Happy to look at this,, but would need to see some examples – GBooks isn't letting me see the pages on this dog in that book. The book is self-published via lulu.com, so there's at least a possibility that it has copied from us. Thanks, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 10:18, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
 * OK, so there's definitely a problem here, – this page predates the creation of our article and is dated 1996. There's enough overlap to be cause for concern. Unless you plan to work on it immediately I'll blank some or all of it and list it at WP:CP. In case you do want to deal with it: it won't be enough to remove just the overlapping material, we'll also need to get rid of any that was copied but then copy-edited such that it no longer rings any bells. Anyway, looking further now ... Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 10:31, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Better off just blanking it and reworking on the article a later date I'd say, I don't have time today to work on it which is why I simply removed the plagiarised AKC standard. Traumnovelle (talk) 10:36, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
 * For the book here's a screenshot. https://0x0.st/H5Ep.png, but given it's self published it may just plagiarise Wikipedia instead. Traumnovelle (talk) 10:34, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
 * OK,, will do. I've identified the insertion of content copied from this page with this edit in 2010, and from here with this one by the same editor. At this point I don't think we need worry about the lulu book. Oh, and good catch, by the way! Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:18, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I've gone through practically every source and removed what I found, as well as a lot of "sourced" content that was in reality just OR that someone had stuck random sources onto. I can't find anything else, but if you do find any issues please feel free to remove it as appropriate. As mentioned, the above book is a backwardscopy. Thanks! –  Iso chrone (talk) 23:21, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Greater Swiss Mountain Dog


text:
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Phaistos Networks

Phaistos Networks
Advertising. Not notable. Katefan0 04:03, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete: Advertising, certainly, for a Greek ISP. Not sure that a clean version would be better.  How significant would the #1 place in Greece be on the English Wikipedia?  Not notable enough, IMO. Geogre 04:25, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep: Why wouldn't it be notable? [[User:Rhymeless|Rhymeless | (Methyl Remiss)]] 05:46, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * If they don't have a homepage in Greek OR English, they aren't worth our notice. I stand corrected. [[User:Rhymeless|Rhymeless | (Methyl Remiss)]] 09:34, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * No, when I visited it there was indeed a (minimal) site in English. As I remember, it merely blurbed and linked to each of the arms of the Phaistos Networks Konzern. And it said "under construction", or similar. But there was no link to a Greek page that I could see. Don't take my word for it; see for yourselves. -- Hoary 09:57, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete as spam. We read that it's "the leading Research and Development firm in Greece, focused in developing Internet enabled technologies and products" but the company's own site is "under construction" in English and they don't even have a Greek-language page. -- Hoary 06:18, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete spam Cdc 06:34, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * del. Mikkalai 09:05, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Ad. utcursch 12:57, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete. Blatant advertising. If they were really the leading whatever-they-claim-to-be in Greece then it would be keep, but I'm pretty sure they're not. [[User:David_Johnson|David Johnson [ T|C ] ]] 14:01, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Delete as obvious spam. DreamGuy 10:55, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC)


text:
Grayson Hall

Grayson Hall (born Shirley Grossman; September 18, 1922 – August 7, 1985) was an American television, film and stage actress. She was widely regarded for her avant-garde theatrical performances from the 1960s to the 1980s. Hall was nominated for an Academy Award for Best Supporting Actress and a Golden Globe Award for the John Huston film The Night of the Iguana (1964).

Hall played multiple prominent roles on the gothic soap opera Dark Shadows (1966–71) and appeared on One Life to Live (1982–83). In 2006, a biography titled Grayson Hall: A Hard Act to Follow was released.

Early life
Hall was born Shirley Grossman in Philadelphia in 1922, the only child of Eleanor and Joseph Grossman. Her father was from Latvia and her mother, who had acted in the Yiddish theatre, was from South Africa. Both were from Jewish immigrant families.

When Hall was eight, her parents separated, but they never divorced. Hall became interested in acting as an escape from a painful childhood, and auditioned for plays in New York City while still attending Simon Gratz High School in North Philadelphia. She enrolled at Temple University but did not matriculate. She landed her first professional job with a summer stock company on Long Island in 1942.

In 1946, she married fellow actor Ted Brooks in Philadelphia. They separated in 1949 and she returned to New York. In 1952, she married writer Sam Hall. Their son Matthew was born in 1958. She had always used the stage name Shirley Grayson, but Sam Hall called her Grayson "like an old Army buddy," as she said in an interview. She eventually adopted Grayson Hall as her professional name.

Career
Hall enjoyed an active stage career in New York City. Her theater credits include roles in off-Broadway productions of influential avant-garde plays including Six Characters in Search of an Author by Luigi Pirandello (Phoenix Theatre, 1955). She also appeared as the madam Irma in the first New York production of The Balcony by Jean Genet for more than a year at the Circle in the Square Theatre Downtown in Greenwich Village.

Having guest-starred on various television programs during the mid-1950s, Hall made her film debut in 1961 in Run Across the River. She also appeared in Satan in High Heels as a cabaret club owner, but she later disavowed the film.

In September 1963, Hall traveled to Puerto Vallarta, Mexico to play the role of Judith Fellowes in John Huston's film version of The Night of the Iguana, based on the original play by Tennessee Williams. She was nominated for an Academy Award in the category of Best Supporting Actress for her performance.

Hall portrayed a kidnapped bank teller in Walt Disney Productions' That Darn Cat! in 1965. She appeared on an episode of The Man from U.N.C.L.E. in 1967.

Dark Shadows
Hall's best-known television role was as Dr. Julia Hoffman on ''Dark Shadows. S''he portrayed the loyal confidant and friend of the vampire Barnabas Collins (Jonathan Frid). Other key roles that she played on the show were those of Countess Natalie Dupres; Magda Rakosi, a Gypsy; Hoffman, a Mrs. Danvers–type housekeeper; Julia Collins; and Constance Collins, sister of Brutus Collins. She also appeared in both Dark Shadows feature films: in House of Dark Shadows again as Dr. Julia Hoffman, and in Night of Dark Shadows as a new character, housekeeper Carlotta Drake.

Later career
After Dark Shadows ended, Hall portrayed reporter Marge Grey on All My Children for a short period in 1973. She continued acting on stage in Jean Genet's The Screens (1971–72) and in Happy End (1977) with Meryl Streep and Christopher Lloyd.

In the 1970s, Hall appeared on several television films, including Gargoyles (ABC), filmed in New Mexico with Cornel Wilde, and the Dan Curtis television film The Great Ice Rip-Off (ABC) with Lee J. Cobb and Gig Young. She starred in the mystery film The Two Deaths of Sean Doolittle (ABC), which was written by her husband Sam Hall.

Hall appeared in the Broadway premiere of The Suicide (1980) with Derek Jacobi and appeared opposite Geraldine Page, Carrie Nye and Madeleine Sherwood in an off-Broadway revival of The Madwoman of Chaillot.

Her last onscreen role was as Euphemia Ralston (Delila's scheming mother) on the soap opera One Life to Live from July 1982 until April 1983.

Death
After a six-month battle with lung cancer, Hall died at New York Hospital in Manhattan in 1985 at the age of 62. A simple marker near her Rhinebeck, New York home reads "Grayson Hall — August 7, 1985."

title: Grayson Hall


text:
Talk:French Bulldog

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 January 2020 and 13 March 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): NatasaEleftheriou. Peer reviewers: AyanoTanaka, CathyChen1998, NK560, Ririying, Kaileyflohr.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 21:51, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

WP:POV
Just came across this article and it could really do with some love. The article is terribly unencyclopaedic. I'm loathed to cut out big swathes of it but unless someone in the know can include some citations it'll lose a lot in the process of correcting it. I'll see what I can dig up from Britannica and other general-purpose sources to avoid annihilating all content. -Rushyo (talk) 17:44, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

This entry is desperately in need of some citations. Hardly any of it is backed by proper sources. Hopefully someone with access to legitimate sources can improve by inserting some references. Most of the pages on Wikipedia devoted to dog breeds are loaded with fuzzy, anecdotal information, of course, and this one is no exception. People who edit Wikipedia pages just to brag about their own superior relationships with their dogs should be spayed or neutered. — Anon.

As always this page stinks of a breeder copy-pasting some breeding guide. All sentence verbs are “should this” and “should that”. “The points should be well distributed and bear good relation one to the other”, “Acceptable colours are: all brindle, fawn, white, brindle and white, and any colour except those which constitute disqualification.” The same problem applies to most bred animals (see articles about chickens and whathaveyou). This page is waiting for someone who cares enough to rewrite/reduce it. — Chrisdone (talk) 07:23, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

 * I'll add it to my list of articles to do. It's quite the mess, but at least its a breed where there should be plenty of information avaliable. The description particularly smacks of copying and pasting a breed standard from somewhere. Miyagawa   (talk)  11:58, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

More pictures
I've added a picture with both of mine in it. I'll try to get pictures of them this weekend each individually. The honey or lemon-pied is the product of fawn and brindle parents. He has siblings that are brindle with white and cream, as in the other picture in the article. The brindle (unrelated to the boy) has a white blaze on her chest and is brindle on her back and rear, which I'll try to include in an individual picture.

I believe that the brindles are fairly common and the breeder told me that the honey-pied is only a 4% change or something really rare. She sold him because he is too large or the breed standard (30 lbs now).

 * Thanks for the photo! Yeah, something that shows the brindle coat better would certainly be nice. Elf | Talk 20:40, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I've added better pictures and I tried to show off the brindle girl's brindle and white chest. Whomever edited the page last time after I put up the image did a great job and I'll leave it to that person to make the page look nicer.

 * Um, gee, thanks (about doing the cleanup, I mean). The breed tables have only one photo in them, so you can just see what i did with the other photos and imitate something like that in the future.  I'm going to take out the old photo with both dogs since we're getting individual shots. The honey pied photo is very cute.

It would be cool to have one photo of a dog standing, taken from the side, compared to one lying down and one sitting. I kind of like your original standing photo of the pied, too, because s/he's standing and at an interesting angle but  you can still see the tail end--and yet an ear is cut off one one foot is behind the brindle. Sigh. so here's your next mission, should you choose to accept it: can you do the same thing for your brindle without cutting off his/her face? :-) This message will self-destruct in 10 seconds. (Or not.)  (Taking photos of dogs is *hard*--I know because I do it all the time. Very dark colored dogs are particularly hard to get good photos of. Good luck. I suggest taking them outside where you can get an angle that has nothing behind the dog but grass or shrubbery--if you can get them on a sunny day in bright (not very dark) even shade, you might have your best luck.) Elf | Talk 01:22, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The artisan community?
The article states Toy Bulldogs were popular amongst the artisan and gay communities in Britain. An 'artisan' is a manual worker. I just can't see manual workers breeding lapdogs and I am sure that artistic (i.e. artistswas actually intended. I will make the change: If I am wrong you may reference it and change it back. --Adam Brink 07:14, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

An artisan is not a manual laborer in the sense you seem to mean. An artisan is one who is involved with the crafts, a skilled worker who generally is not doing the original things an actual artist does. The word was almost certainly used correctly. 65.79.173.135 (talk) 19:21, 1 October 2014 (UTC)Will in New Haven65.79.173.135 (talk) 19:21, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

question
Are french bulldogs born with or without tails

Answer:

French Bulldogs tails are naturally short, and are not docked at birth. In the early days of the breed, the tail was more similar in type to that of most terrier breeds. Selection by breeders has resulted in most North American born French Bulldogs having a naturally occurring short, screw tail.

You can read a more comprehensive article on the evolution of the French Bulldog's tail here -

--FrogDogz 19:01, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Removed certain links
I have removed certain links because they provide no information of any significance and are generally nothing more than links to pages that contain breeders links. There was an elaborate plan of links and cross links to promote frogdawz websites ranking for self serving reasons. There are other informational websites that can be found on the internet that will serve the readers interest better that do not contain breeder links. Each of the deleted links contained links to Absolut. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.100.55.225 (talk) 13:59, 18 April 2008 (UTC) french bulldogs Are so head Heavy That they Can't Mate (Hump) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.126.228.217 (talk) 21:24, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

French Bulldog and the Titanic
I just added a brief passage to the "Cultural References" section on a French Bulldog aboard the Titanic. The story is told in various apocryphal forms on French Bulldog fan pages, but I have cited a reliable page from the French Bulldog Club of America. I am wondering, however, if this addition might be better placed in the history section? The story is not only interesting as a cultural reference, but also as an illustration of the French Bulldog's place in "high society". What do other contributors think? Cfordahl88 (talk) 21:20, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Intelligence
The text had "appear intelligent" for dogs' look which is highly subjective and questionable. Especially in the light of the so quoted ranking in the article itself that places the French Bulldog in the penultimate category of dog intelligence. There was also description that "the dog is intelligent" but "is stubborn and may not get trained easily" (not exact wording). This, again, is subjective and contradicts to consecutive statements in the article itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kamenlitchev (talk • contribs) 14:09, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Image changes
I have reverted the changes to the images made by. The puppy image was less illustrative than the image that had been there, and the brindle image was unclear. However, the editor had made multiple substitutions, and possibly one or more of their images would be a useful addition to the gallery. So I think this should be discussed. Yngvadottir (talk) 05:46, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Ok, I can use this one, its OK. Not bad, and it shows a dog with white body and black ears, the one colour we didn't had yet. It is the last picture in the article, but its used. Hafspajen (talk) 09:42, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Lifespan and other new edits
Please read Identifying reliable sources. Random blogs, breeder websites, youtube etc are generally not appropriate. Source for 10-12 years is not reliable. Info on how lifespan is longer now because of actions taken by the KC is not in source. See No original research.--Dodo bird (talk) 05:55, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

.
Asked the copyvio experts to take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=French_Bulldog&diff=680322045&oldid=680321893 this edit, if it is copvio, it must be cleaned up (Not removed, but rewritten). Hafspajen (talk) 00:00, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
 * , left a meassage here. Hafspajen (talk) 00:01, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Gary
Shouldn't Gary Fisher be mentioned somewhere in this? He is notable enough to be included, certainly taking into account the Titanic dog. -A la d  insane   (Channel 2)  19:50, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 February 2017
In the section about colours, it should be noted what colours are recognised by the FCI, and that the dilute (liver, mouse, etc) colour genes potentially also carry the risk for severe skin disease, eye problems, deafness and birth deformities. There are plenty of credible sources and proof online to confirm this, and it shouldn't be excluded from the page. 87.54.200.50 (talk) 15:43, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.  B E C K Y S A Y L E S  06:03, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

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Whats wrong with the bulldog image
User:Cristorras what's wrong with the image below for the French Bulldog article? Dwanyewest (talk) 09:55, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:8A:4102:B3A0:45EC:BE:D230:630D (talk) 00:15, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Capitalization
Is the "Bulldog" in "French Bulldog" supposed to be capitalized? At first glance, seems to violate our Manual of Style, which prefers sentence case. Thoughts on de-capitalizing "bulldog" so that it's "French bulldog"? – Novem Linguae (talk) 18:15, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
 * No, it's the name of a breed, and we capitalise breed names (well, we consistently do so for dogs at least), just as the sources do. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 10:53, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Good to know. Thanks. – Novem Linguae (talk) 10:54, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * While some sources do capitalize both words the MLA says that it should not be capitalized. We do seem to have a convention of capitalization all words in a breed name, but I'm not aware of an WP:MOS guideline around that. OhNo itsJamie Talk 20:54, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * MOS:BREED, although that's not official policy it is in line with typical consensus. You could challenge that given it's not official policy but you'd probably need to get a decent amount of comments and not just on a single article talk page if you wanted to change it given the vast majority of articles use this standard. Traumnovelle (talk) 23:04, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm not interested in changing the status quo. Seems like it's one of those things that can go either way, and it would be a waste of time making a fuss about it here. OhNo itsJamie  Talk 23:11, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Same here, I don't care which standard is used so long as there is a consistent one. Traumnovelle (talk) 23:13, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:French Bulldog


text:
Talk:Wire Fox Terrier

Title?
This may be a silly question, but why on earth is this article at Fox Terrier (Wire), and not Wire Fox Terrier? Likewise for the (Smooth) article. It doesn't seems at all like a natural usage or title. Alai 02:18, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, it should be Wire Fox Terrier. --Counter-revolutionary 02:53, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * And now I've messed it up altogether! --Counter-revolutionary 02:55, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * In the process of fixing --Closedmouth 11:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. I'm not sure, but don't they have it that way on dog shows too? --Mokoniki (talk) 14:02, 1 June 2009 (UTC)Mokoniki

title: Talk:Wire Fox Terrier


text:
Talk:Smooth Fox Terrier

Vulnerable Native Breed
This breed is classed in Britain as a VNB - a breed which originated in the UK but now has registration numbers with the Kennel Club of less then 300 puppies per year.

I'm a Canadian teenager on a gap year before Uni and I'm really interested in this. Would anyone like a VNB paragraph/link on this page? I can write it, but am ignorant about formatting etc. Plus, I'm trying to put together a whole collection on all 29 breeds on this list, including history and so on, using Wikipedia as one of my many sources. If you can help, or are interested at all, please contact me either on my talk page or at green_ied_dragon@hotmail.com

--The Wizard of Magicland 19:03, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

That photo
The current image (Feb. 2005) is not a standard Smooth Fox Terrier (cutest dog, though).

I think this image would be better placed at the fox terrier article, as it is a dog of fox terrier type.

Quill 21:39, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * I have no objections. It didn't look completely fox terrierish to me, but I'm not an expert in that area. Elf | Talk 06:48, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Yes, the standard foxie is pretty distinctive.
 * My suggested wording for a caption: This tri-coloured dog of fox terrier type exhibits several traits characteristic of the descendent breeds, including an inherited instinct for digging.
 * I’m afraid my connection problems make it too frustrating for me to move this myself.
 * Quill 01:24, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Done, O Quill. Elf | Talk 04:50, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Thank you, O Great and Wonderful Wizard of Elf! Quill 05:00, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I've just added an image I took of our Fox Terrier, Kai, so I'll remove the required image tag if that's alright. --Brendanfox 11:19, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

 * Cool. Thanks! Elf | Talk 16:09, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

title: Talk:Smooth Fox Terrier