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Talk:Jesus, pre-4th century Christianity, and syncretism/Archive 1

The Seventy
I believe the following paragraph is based on a factually inaccurate premise:
 * The Gospels state that there were 72 disciples (known as "the 72"). According to the Old Testament, the number 72 is also the number of races supposedly resulting from Noah (even though the counting is arbitrary and ignores the descendents of Peleg, but counts fathers with sons), and the number of those recieving the spirit with Moses (including the 2 absentees -Eldad and Medad), and the number of languages at the tower of Babel. The use of the number is thought by some academics to have astronomical origins in the fact that it takes 72 years for the procession of the constellations, and in this context the number appears in a story about the egyptian god Thoth winning 1/72nd of moonlight so that Ra's wife can have children.

The Gospels tell of 70 apostles that Jesus sent out to preach and do miracles, not 72. If you add to them his main 12 disciples, you would have 82 instead. Consequently, this whole paragraph falls apart since it relies on specific numbers, and I would therefore suggest that it be deleted. Wesley 18:36, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * They are referred to as the "seventy two" (words not number) in many locations. Ill find some references for you. CheeseDreams 19:48, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Here is a google search to show you how much the term is used (including by the catholic encyclopedia http://www.google.co.uk/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=the+seventy+two+disciples&meta= CheeseDreams 19:59, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Maybe this should go in an external link, as obviously more than zero persons is suspicious of 72 under a description of something like "references to there being 72 disciples" ?CheeseDreams 20:01, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * After looking a little more, it seems that these are the disciples referred to in Luke 10. Some manuscripts say there were 70, some say 72. Some English Bibles use one number, others use the other. I'll take a closer look at which is which later. Maybe this bit can stay, with a note about the difference in manuscripts. Wesley 22:30, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * 72 is in Papyrus 75 (third century) and the Codex Vaticanus (fourth century), while 70 is in Sinaiticus (fourth century), Alexandrinus (fifth century), Ephraemi Rescriptus (fifth century) and the Byzantine text type (Majority text). The "two" is bracketed in the Nestle-Aland critical text edition as doubtful, but possibly valuable, and is omited in the Hodges-Farstad Majority Text. Mpolo 09:05, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)

 * Which brings me to the question "so why does the catholic encyclopedia regard there as having been 72" ? CheeseDreams 11:20, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Also, it appears that older translations (e.g. KJV) have 70 and more modern ones 72.
 * This would indicate that the majority of people in the field today consider the earlier manuscripts more accurate, i.e. there being 72.CheeseDreams 11:31, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Image of Isis and Horus
The caption of this image currently reads,
 * This image appears to denote the Virgin Mary and Jesus; however, it depicts Isis and Horus, and dates from 20BC

The image does not appear to denote the Virgin Mary and Jesus to anyone who is at all familiar with Christian iconography. There are numerous essential elements shared by all icons of Mary and Jesus that this picture lacks. It appears to denote a mother and child. This caption should edited to something like this:
 * This image of a mother and child is in some ways similar to depictions of Jesus and Mary, but scholars believe it depicts instead Isis and Horus, and dates from 20BC.

Wesley 18:43, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * What is it lacking? (Remember, you must compare it with early christian drawings on the same theme, not renaissance versions (which are also after the invention of perspective, and the ability to draw things properly)) CheeseDreams 19:50, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Believe me, I wouldn't dream of comparing it with Renaissance versions. The first most glaring difference is that the woman isn't fully covered. Every icon that has Mary or any other woman in it has her covered except for face and hands. With Mary in particular, this is consistent with the belief that she is ever-virgin. Second, Mary always or nearly always has her had slightly bowed toward Jesus in deference to him and to direct the viewer towards him. Third, saints are always depicted without emotion, passionless, while this woman appears to be smiling. Fourth, they both lack any kind of nimbus or halo, which were a very early feature of Christian art. Fifth, icons of Mary and Jesus are found with Jesus' attention directed either towards Mary or towards the viewer. If directed at the viewer, Jesus always or nearly always has his right hand extended in a particular gesture of blessing, in which the fingers of the hand appear to form a "chi" and "rho", first two letters of christos. Sixth, Jesus is typically shown as appearing much older in appearance based on his facial features, than the infant we see in this picture. Wesley 03:39, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * "Every icon that has Mary or any other woman in it has her covered except for face and hands" - isn't this just orthodox jewish (and arabic) distaste for allowing women to wear certain forms of clothing?
 * Isis was considered "ever Virgin" (which is blatently inconsistent, but I don't think that ever stopped them)

 * The only problem with your statement about Christian depictions is that it is not true. Here is a link with an early Christian picture placed next to the Isis one
 * (from a 5th century funeral engraving in Fayum)
 * Note the similarity. And the fact that the Christian depiction violates all the rules you give.
 * I have found a free-to-use instance of the image. I will set about putting them together. CheeseDreams 13:16, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Here is another Isis and Horus

 * I have changed the image to one with an early depiction of Jesus and Mary side by side (looking at them like that it looks almost like an exact copy - right down to the hair and position of the hand!!!! - though to state this would be POV wouldn't it, lets let it speak for itself). CheeseDreams 13:48, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

If that Christian image is indeed Coptic, as the url implies, that would explain the violations of the rules I gave. They were mainly in reference to Byzantine iconography, from I think roughly the same time frame. I'm not very familiar with coptic iconography. I'm not even sure the copts would call it an icon per se, since it's engraved rather than painted. I know, you only called it a depiction not an icon; I only make the distinction because that would be another (hypothetical) reason for conventional rules of iconography to be somewhat relaxed. Wesley 04:56, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Here is another link showing the converse, with Isis having a halo (the solar disc above her head), looking into the distance, the infant looking toward her, with an older looking infant, and, rather intriguingly, if you look at the arms of the chair she is sitting on it seems to depict a crucifixion.
 * Its a shame that one is probably copyright too, as otherwise it would make a great demonstration of showing that crucifixion of horus was part of the earlier forms of the religion.
 * CheeseDreams 12:56, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

NPOV
Wesley, you should also be aware that I have already asked someone with a different side on the argument to me to take a look at the article and make it more NPOV, though they have been away recently and just got back. CheeseDreams 19:56, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Great; glad to hear it. Until then, I'll keep doing my best to make it NPOV as well. I hope we can work together towards this. Any objections to the change in caption I suggested above?

 * The phrase "but scholars believe it depicts Isis and ... and dates from 20BC" seems quite POV - it suggests doubt over the date. There is very very little doubt over the date of that image. CheeseDreams 23:36, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * According to Mpolo, the above statement by me is accusing Wesley of carrying out a POV campaign!!!!! CheeseDreams 18:49, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I was just assuming that scholars were in agreement that this is a depiction of Isis and Horus, and that it dates to about 20 B.C. Is it some other group besides scholars that believe this? Do only some scholars think this? How were the identity and date determined if not by scholars? Wesley
 * I think the identities are written somewhere connected to where it was found (like being in a temple of Isis or something). I haven't discovered which location it originates from yet, though I am aware that it is Roman. Most (if not all) scholars date it to 20BC (I have no idea why, but the dating seems oddly precise- rather than "first half of 1st century BC" or something, so the date is probably concretely indicated by something probably related to the circumstances it was found in). The fact that it is coloured suggests a good state of preservation, so it should be well known. CheeseDreams 17:29, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Ok, I've found out where the image comes from - its a wall painting from a house in Karanis (a cult centre of Isis as it happens). It was possibly discovered by an excavation sponsored by the "University of Michigan". As it contains paint and plaster, it can be carbon dated to be particularly precise. I think there are other surrounding factors indicating the date and identity of the characters in the image as well. CheeseDreams 18:30, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

So... do you think I'm carrying out a POV campaign? Wesley 03:42, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * On what?CheeseDreams 17:29, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Demotic
"Demotic greatly post dates Christianity" -if this is the case then I have got the name of the language wrong -I am referring to whatever language it is that the heiroglyphs encode. I always understood this to have been called demotic. CheeseDreams 12:10, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Actually, from the article "Demotic" Demotic was in use by 660 BC and became the dominant script of ancient Egypt by 600 BC.. I don't see how that is Post-Christian, its almost pre-bible (being written down). CheeseDreams 16:51, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * OK, my mistake. I thought that Demotic was what Egyptian turned into on the way to Coptic script. Mpolo 19:45, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)

Set
Set and Seth are etymologically identical, and culturally identical - its like the variation between "Iesu" and "Jesus" in the latin mass.

I can't remember why, but its something to do with (t) and (th) being simply variations due accents or something.

There is also another word for Set which is Sutekh. See Set (god) where there is a full list of alternate terms for Set. CheeseDreams 12:17, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Osiris
Mpolo's comment in the text about "who thinks this" with regard to Osiris being pronounced "Azer". The response is
 * About 99% of demotic scholars. "Osiris" is used in english and derived from the greek attempt to pronounce the name (likewise "Horus" is really "Haru"). Other suggestions are "oser", but thats considered implausible - see Osiris for details.
 * I would point out that "El-osiris (i.e. losiris)" looks remarkably like "Lazarus" anyway, not that that is important. Basically the demotic for "Osiris" is "Azer"(or something similar, almost 99% think its Azer). Applying the hebrew practice of Theophory makes this El-Azer (an alternate would be Azer-el or Jo-azer etc., though El-Azer would be most likely as this is "God is Azer" i.e. "God is Osiris", the POV of the Osiris cult). Elazer is a very hebrew looking name and greek translation would apply greek naming conventions - rule 1=endings, rule 2=should-start-with-a-consonant thus rule 1=(+os), rule 2=(-e) thus Lazeros (n.b. the rules are not compulsory but very few exceptions occur, thus dictating that they are the most likely course of events).CheeseDreams 18:44, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * My point in the "Who thinks this?" comments is that you have documented maybe one scholar in one paragraph of the whole article. This is not serious encyclopedia writing. I am only asking that you indicate the support for the statements. In this case, it would be enough to say that "students of Demotic" (optionally "including Al-Zarif the Magnificent") state that. I wasn't disputing the fact, just asking for its support. That should be in the article as well, so that the reader can make that judgement. "Some scholars", which begins every third sentence of the current article, is useless. Be careful with your "similis huic ergo propter hoc" arguments, as well. You haven't established a causal relationship, only a similarity in a name. Mpolo 20:39, Dec 5, 2004 (UTC)

Also see Mizraim (you will have to see the article to understand the connection) CheeseDreams 20:12, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Set as adversary
Basically, early versions of Set had Set being a brother to Osiris, but eventually had syncretism with Apep (the serpent) becoming the arch enemy (it is thought that it was a cult favoured by some opposed to Egyptian Unification, and when their rebellion failed, the Set cult became viewed in a bad light). CheeseDreams 18:33, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Horus myths
The "versions" of the myth are not the myth at different dates. I had lost the names, but Ben Standevan found some of them.

Essentially, Horus the child- Harpocrates (Har-Pa-Khered) is the form depicted as a child whose mother is Isis.

Horus son of Isis - Harsiesis (Har-Sa-Iset) is the form which is part of the Osiris-Isis-Horus trinity with father Osiris, mother Isis, and is adult.

Horus of the two horizons (Har-Khutti) (one of the earlier syncretisms) is the form with 12 followers.

Har-makhet is the form where Horus is the god of the morning sun, and keeps secret wisdom (teaching mankind etc) - this is the form the Sphinx statue may be based on.

Horus the Elder (Haroeris) is the early form with one eye the sun, another the moon, brother of Osiris and Set.

Horus Raharakhte is a syncretism with Ra, making Horus a sun god.

Horus saviour of his father- Harendotes (Har-nedj-itef) is the form where horus resurrects Osiris aka Lazarus.

Horus Bedhuti is the form where Horus is the son/husband/both of Hathor/Meri.

I was intending to put these names in, by the way, once I had found out what they were. CheeseDreams 12:17, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Horus Nativity
I have found a reference for that image (the nativity image), its from the (pre-Christian) Temple of Amen at Luxor, built by Amenhotep III. The holy spirit (transmitted by the Ankh) is called Kneph. The goddess holding the hand of the mother whilst Thoth transmits Kneph to the mother (via the ankh) is Hathor, by the way (who in other versions of the story IS the mother).

Oh, Ive made a typo. Its seb not set (as the consort of Meri). The etymology for Seb is similar, b->ph is fairly standard amongst linguistic changes, maybe a reference explaining how that works would be best, ill look for one. The change is most pronounced in arabic, an even later seperation - where there is no p sound at all (the p sound has gone p -> f -> h -> )
 * Here is the etymology. Aramaic languages do not really recognise or sound the difference between plosives and fricative equivalents (e.g. b compared to v), to the extent that they are even written with the same letter of the alphabet. I.e. to an native aramaic speaker, b and v sound identical, or near-identical (to the extent that telling them apart is difficult).I.e. If someone said "Seb did this" you wouldn't be able to tell that apart from "Sev did this". It is further one of the language laws that, given the opportunity, sounds will become unvoiced (for reasons of effort to make them voiced) - i.e. v->f etc.
 * Thus when an aramaic speaker hears the story of "Seb", they are most likely to record it as the story of "Sef" (similarly other things get changed). In greek "f" is represented as "ph" i.e. it becomes the story of "Seph". With the standard "lord" theophoric prefix from hebrew (a language where theophory in names was standard practice), i.e. "Jo-", it becomes "Joseph". Such strange changes of name are common at the time, for example, the persian "Khshayarsluf" became the greek "Xerxes" (which initially appears to look nothing like it), and the persian "Nabukudurriusur" became the hebrew "N'vuchadnetzar" CheeseDreams 17:37, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

As for Meri, its a rather odd humanification of the goddess Meh (the Nile goddess). Seb is the protector of Isis (and earlier of the Nile- i.e. Meh), and is depicted as a crocodile (i.e. a creature protecting the nile). CheeseDreams

Note that all female godesses from egyptian myth eventually became syncretised into Isis.CheeseDreams

Here are the titles of Isis : "Our Lady, Queen of Heaven, Star of the Sea, Saviour of Souls, Immaculate Virgin,...." (amongst others). Note the last one. CheeseDreams

It might interest you to know that early christian churches (e.g. Alexandria) dedicated to Mary were placed next to temples dedicated to Isis. CheeseDreams

 * Would you mind signing your edits in each section? Thanks. Wesley 03:45, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Oh sorry, I wrote the sections all in one go. CheeseDreams 17:30, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Other miscellanious things
And there is this too, Iu-em-hetep (before 1000BC) was a miraculous healer, who gave wise teaching, and came in peace. Now of course it would be nonsense to suggest that's the proto-type for Jesus, except for the fact that even in the 9th century, Iu was being used as a name for Jesus (e.g. in a church on Caldy Island, Pembrokeshire, Wales). CheeseDreams 16:07, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Oh, here is something I didn't mention in the text, maybe I should put it in. Set accompanied the mother and child into lower egypt during their escape from persecution by Herrut (an evil serpent). Sounds remarkably like Joseph accompanying a mother and child into lower egypt during their escape from (the non-historical) persecution by Herod (whose similarity in name to Herrut was probably the cause of this particular syncretism). CheeseDreams 16:07, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

And Josephus records the tradition that a Pharoah commanded all the Israelites children to be slaughtered. There was also one about Nimrod doing the same for fear of Abraham. The myth also exists of Krishna, and of Jason (of the argonauts). Some people reckon that its to do with the sun (aka Jesus/Abraham/etc.) destroying the evil tyranny of winter (aka Herrod/Nimrod/etc. ). CheeseDreams 16:07, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Oh, the crib could derive from egyptian legends of the Sun (back to the Jesus-is-a-sun-god idea again). Basically the sun was percieved of as being born at the summit ("Apta") of "the mount" (which is earth), Apta also is the egyptian word for Crib/manger. This is why the sun-god (as Ra/Osiris/Horus etc.) was worshipped anually with a crib/manger being paraded around streets and temples in the annual sun-god festival. CheeseDreams 16:07, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Oh, and Pliny, in his Natural History, mentions a visit of homage to Nero by the magi Tiridates. Of this, Dio Cassius (220AD) writes ''Tiridates. . . was driven in the chariot which Nero had sent to him. . . and bending his knee to the earth and lifting his hands, he called him his lord and worshipped him. . . For he spoke thus: I, my lord. . . am thy slave. And I am come to thee as to my God, worshipping thee, even as Mithras. . . But Tiridates did not travel back by the way he had come''. Which sounds rather like matthew 2:1-12.CheeseDreams 16:07, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

And I have just found this - Irenaeus wrote that The Gnostics truly declared that all the supernatural transactions asserted in the gospels were counterparts (or representations) of what took place above. I.e. astronomical observations - just like everyone else who alleges that they are syncretisms from myths based on astronomy. CheeseDreams 16:07, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Er... if the gnostics did believe that the events in the gospels were counterparts of what took place above, that's not at all the same thing as saying they were invented stories based on pre-existing myths. They could very well have had in mind plato's notion of ideals. Wesley 05:03, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * No, its saying they understood the stories as representations of astronomy. Which is the origin of the pre-existing myths. (oh, and in consequence did not view them as historical events) CheeseDreams 23:39, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Capricorn (constellation) was also known as "the Stable of Augeas". When the sun arises in Virgo, Capricorn is directly beneath the earth, and thus The sun was said to have risen from the Stable. Justin martyr said that Jesus was born "when the sun had its birth in the Augean Stable". The constellation Auriga was also known as a stable, which is next to the constellation Taurus (which for this purpose, call "Ox"), and the constellation Ass-of-Typhon (this is the Egyptian term, we call it Ursa Major), i.e. Ox and Ass in the stable.CheeseDreams 16:07, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Annu is the house of the dead quite literally. The Anu are the group of people who founded egyptian culture. CheeseDreams 16:12, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

There is quite a lot here, I would like to insert it, It may mean the horus section needs to be broken up a bit into subsections, and some bits could be put in the gnosticism section.

Eleusinian mysteries
I was not aware that Demeter was considered Osiris-Dionysus. I will check out this one, as the Eleusinian Mysteries were really rather famous. CheeseDreams 12:20, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Christmas
By "some christians .... 25th december" I was referring to the Coptic church's disagreement of the date rather than the Orthodox's. CheeseDreams 12:24, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

grafitto
That grafitto has a donkey's head, which is associated with Dionysus. CheeseDreams 12:29, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

an addition
Mpolo changed a sentence to read "as with most interpretations of Christianity, this was understood to have the deeper meaning that mankind's fate lay in its own hands and failing to listen to the wisdom from the mystery religions would, inevitably, spell disaster"

This is w.r.t. "return to judge the quick and the dead".

I was under the impression that most Protestants and Catholics viewed this literally, rather than a secular warning to take responsibility for your actions or disaster would occur.

Please explain this change Mpolo. CheeseDreams 12:33, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * I don't recall that change. I may have read the sentence wrong. Mpolo 15:02, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)

 * Ok. I thought for a moment that I had completely misunderstood Christian eschatology. CheeseDreams 18:32, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Mithra
Zoroastrianism doesn't contain the cult of Mithra. Its stricly mono-theistic now, and previously was strictly dualist and had angels not other gods.

What the Magi did to the religion, in creating and sustaining the Mithra cult, is regarded by Zoroastrians as a perversion of the religion. And the pure form continued to exist parallel to the Mithra cult.

Thus I prefer my sentence

"The caste of priests responsible for the cult of Mithra"

rather than

"The caste of priests of the Zoroastrian religion"

which is not accurate.CheeseDreams 12:37, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What did the Magi have to do with the "Mithra cult"? I thought they _were_ orthodox Zoroastrians. Ben Standeven 07:20, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Nah, they were the cultists. Orthodox zoroastrianism didn't have the magi. The magi were known for their taste for ritual and things (i.e. their upholding the idea of ritual worship) (as well as astrology, something they were also famous for) and this fame is the reason we have the term "magician" (which derives from magi). Orthodox zoroastrianism was much purer a religion, less cluttered with rituals etc. and more like buddhism (though obviously still quite different).CheeseDreams 07:28, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Egyptian Trinity
In Mpolo's rewrite of the Priority section, he states that the Egyptian Trinity is 9 gods. I have the following points/questions with regard to this CheeseDreams 13:01, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Osiris and Horus were considered interchangable (leading to much confusion over the stories, and the transfer of many Horus myths to Osiris as Osiris-Dionysus) Horus going so far as to say "I and my father are one".
 * Who are the other 6? If you mean Thoth, Set and company, these date from earlier versions of the Egyptian religion, and had largely merged into Osiris-Horus-Isis by the time of the Isis cult.

 * Read Ennead. Egyptian mythology does not have a trinity. Saying that it does is like the anti-Catholics who say that "IHS" stands for the "Egyptian Trinity" Isis-Horus-Set (who wouldn't ever be considered together as a trinity as even you would admit, since two are opposed to the third). Which is hogwash. Your own text shows that Thoth was still active as a divine figure in the mystery religion period, and that Horus and Osiris were NOT interchangeable. No fair changing the definitions when it suits you. My source is documented in the "Sources" section as well. Mpolo 15:08, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)
 * I don't remember stating Thoth was still active in the mystery religion period. I certainly don't consider it true to say that. If you mean the nativity, the heiroglyphs in question date from before 1000BC, so I don't really think that could be counted as the hellenic era. CheeseDreams 18:28, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Horus an Osiris were interchangable in the trinity period, which is what makes it particularly difficult to sort the myths out as to which referred to which origninally. Basically, this was due to Horus' continued syncretism of other cults, eventually absorbing Osiris (and Apis), to become Serapis. CheeseDreams 18:37, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Ennead dates from a much earlier version of the egyptian mythology, so I don't really see why it counts as relevant - it doesn't even include Horus (the most major of all the egyptian gods).

 * In that case, your picture from 1000 BC and its explanation are irrelevant to the article. (Since a claim that early Christians were experts at reading hieroglyphics and were great scholars of abandoned Egyptian religion would boggle the imagination.) In any case, even if (and I haven't seen evidence to support this) there were only three gods in Egyptian mystery religions, resemblence to the Trinity is less than superficial. These are three figures who are clearly different and are not claimed to be the same. No one says that "Isis and Horus are one". Mpolo 08:21, Dec 5, 2004 (UTC)
 * Its not a claim that early christians could read heiroglyphs, it is the claim that the story existed in egyptian mythology (which the heiroglyphs evidence). Maybe that isn't clear in the text?
 * Essentially, Meh became absorbed into Hathor and eventually became absorbed into Isis, Seb thus becoming the protector of Hathor then Isis. Seb then became absorbed into the other crocodile god (I've forgotten the name but it also begins with S I think), and eventually got absorbed into I think Osiris.
 * Thus the story continued to exist, and in this form, the characters would be referred to by the form in the story or a prefix to the names of the current Gods (e.g. like Har-Beh-Uti or whatever it was (har=horus) as in "Har-Beh-Uti did ...."), as the ancient stories continued to survive as the gods were identified with each other rather than scrapped (and they had writing as well).CheeseDreams 18:10, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Esentially the accusation is - Matthew/whoever-wrote-Matthew knew-it was-a-mystery-religion/got-confused-and-mis-assigned-the-story and had some knowledge of Egyptian-myth/the-Osiris-mysteries for some reason (e.g. trade with egypt, growing up in a mixed cultural area, going on holiday, having an egyptian friend, being a scholar, etc.). And then put it into the text. If it was a mystery religion, then this would have been standard (and totally acceptable) practice. CheeseDreams 18:10, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * I agree that resemblence to the trinity is "superficial" - it is really a resemblence to GOD-Jesus-Mary, which of course isn't the real Catholic trinity is it? I mean Catholics worship the holy ghost rather than Mary don't they? Or maybe I have got that wrong?CheeseDreams 18:10, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Are you sure you don't mean Isis-Horus-Seb rather than Set, which is more accurately the Meh-Horus-Seb trinity corresponding with Mary-Jesus-Joseph (with lesser gods - such as the messenger Thoth, who acts equivalantly to the archaeangel Gabriel)? (though this would be I suppose MHS) CheeseDreams 18:28, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * I've just noticed something about IHS.
 * The H wouldn't exist in the latin or the greek (And the S would be absent from the greek and latin too, if my memory serves me rightly) if it refers to "Jesus" (vowels missing). Now the I could stand for "Iesu", but what the H or S could possibly stand for I have absolutely no idea (especially the H).
 * Unless of course it is greek and the H is actually a capital Eta, in which case it should more properly be written in english as IES, but that is bizarre - missing out some consonants and vowels but keeping others, so that leaves it having to be an acronym but there is nothing plausible for that either. So maybe those anti-catholics are right about this? CheeseDreams 00:23, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * No, it's an abbreviation and transliteration done by someone who didn't know much Greek. It is an Iota, Eta, Sigma, with the letters that look like Latin letters "transliterated" as the letter they appear to be, and those that don't transliterated (Sigma) transliterated correctly (S). It is the first three letters of Jesus' name. Greek abbreviations of "Jesus Christ" as IC XC and ΙΗΣ ΧΡΣ are exceedingly common, beginning in the second or third century. Medieval Latinists are responsible for the error, which has been retained because of tradition, especially since the Jesuits chose it as their symbol. Mpolo 08:21, Dec 5, 2004 (UTC)
 * IES? Thats an appalling translation. Oh, if it originates in the mediaeval era then its rather irrelevant then isn't it. But it could, in that case, equally have been a result of anti-catholics deliberately trying to put the catholics in a bad light, not that that is relevant either. CheeseDreams 18:10, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Isis Cult
No Christians worship Mary. They worship God alone, who exists in the three hypostases or persons of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Wesley 05:06, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Oh yes. I forgot. Christians "venerate" Mary. Christians also have a Hail Mary, hymns TO Mary, have a huge religious service dedicated to Mary (particularly in venice), have loads of devotional statues to Mary, celebrate a canticle of Mary as a fundamental part of liturgy, consider Mary important enough that her prayer is part of the Rosary along with the Lord's prayer, paint icons and images of Mary in blue (up until modern times, this was the most expensive colour to use in painting), and have feasts dedicated to Mary, as well as a mass of dogma surrounding Mary (unlike other non-Jesus biblical new-testament characters), and associated holidays. And that's because they worship the holy-ghost. CheeseDreams 23:30, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * CheeseDreams, while I do agree that at the least, Orthodox Christians worship Mary, we must consider what they view as worship. Other than their hymns/prayers to her, the other components do not neccessarily consitute worship, as they have been given to all famous leaders.--Josiah 23:44, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

 * Put it this way, many religions worship their most important/only god less than Christians worship Mary.
 * Further, note that although Christians claim that they worship "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost", the holy ghost recieves very little worship indeed, wheras Mary recieves far more. An outside observer unaware of dogma would state that the Christians have 3 gods, "Father, Jesus, and Mary", the holy ghost doesn't even get a look in. CheeseDreams 23:48, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * As you keep stressing to us that you come from a Catholic/Anglican background, I can only presume that you are trolling here, as you certainly know the distinction between latria, dulia and hyperdulia. Personally, I sing a hymn to the Holy Spirit every day and invoke him several times during the day. (I also pray the rosary every day, but, as I'm sure you realize, that is primarily a Christological prayer. If not, read Rosarium Virginis Mariae.) Mpolo 09:25, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)

You're right to the extent that Mary does receive a great deal of attention. I think 5 or 6 out of 12 Great Feasts of the Orthodox calendar are devoted to Mary; that doesn't count Pascha (Easter) of course. (In fact, tomorrow, December 9, is "The Conception by Righteous Anna of the Most-Holy Mother of God.") Mpolo is right to point out the distinction between veneration and worship. This was spelled out as dogma at the Seventh Ecumenical Council, which I believe remains accepted by Roman Catholics and Orthodox alike, although Protestants generally don't like it much. You'll find a very brief summary here: http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8071.asp. Many other saints are also venerated, and are "prayed to" or "prayed with," generally asking them to pray to God for us or for specific petitions, and thanking them for their prayers and their exemplary lives. St. Nicholas Day is still an important day for remembering that ancient Bishop of Myra, for instance. As for the Holy Spirit, the most common hymn to the Holy Spirit in Orthodoxy, 'O Heavenly King', comes at the beginning of the "Trisagion" or "Thrice Holy" prayer, which is typically included at least once at every vespers, matins, and Divine Liturgy service, and is also included in most or all prayer books I've seen that are intended for daily use by laymen. In addition, mentions of "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" are peppered throughout the prayers, in different ways. A random example would be something like, "To You we send up glory, together with your only begotten Son and your all-holy, good and life-creating Spirit." Variations on this abound, and can be readily verified by consulting nearly any Orthodox prayer book or attending services. I can't personally confirm, but suspect you would find much the same among Catholics and Anglicans. Practice will of course vary among Protestants, but Pentecostals and Charismatics in particular pay particular attention to the Holy Spirit, and very little attention to Mary. So I stand by initial statement, that no Christians worship Mary. Wesley 17:53, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Pentagrams
The 108 degree angle is also a 72 degree angle - it depends on which side you construct it. Remember that some ancients preferred not to consider angles existed that were larger than a right angle. If you continue the line of one side past its end point, it makes a 72 degree angle with the next side. This was the common method of construction, and you will often see the continuation lines drawn in on more scientific drawings.

Although the points in a pentagram meet at 36 degree angles, these angles are a result not part of the construction. The pentagram is geometrically formed by extending a pentagon's sides until they meet up. In extending the sides, they automatically create the above 72 degree angle at the pentagon where the extension leaves the pentagon. Thus a pentagram is FORMED by 72 degree angles rather than 36 degree ones. CheeseDreams 13:01, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Maybe the segment in question ought to be re-worded to make clear where the 72 degree angles come from. CheeseDreams 13:04, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Mithra(s) Cult
Gibbon's work on the fall of Rome includes a famous passage on the Mithra cult, which might be worth quoting here. --Christofurio 16:56, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)

 * Mithra or Mithras?

 * If you mean Under the reign of Tiberius, the whole earth, or at least a celebrated province of the Roman empire, was involved in a preternatural darkness of three hours. Even this miraculous event, which ought to have excited the wonder, the curiosity, and the devotion of mankind, passed without notice in an age of science and history, then that is really covered in Jesus and textual evidence in the section about Letters of Herod and Pilate, although Mpolo took out the detail as it was flogging a dead horse. Maybe the quote ought be put in instead to make it read more nicely? I won't put it in if Mpolo objects, as I don't see it as fundamental, just nice. CheeseDreams 18:48, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * I don't have access to a copy of decline and fall of the roman empire, so I might search online for it, but it would be quicker if you could provide the quote. CheeseDreams 18:48, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Feeding 9000
I have taken out the story of the 5000 & 4000 and of gematria in Apocalypsus/Revelations as on re-reading it, I noticed (a) it isn't really about syncretism (b) it is about secret teachings in mark / understanding the anti-roman polemic of revelations - the gnosticism section on the historicity main article seems a better place to put them. CheeseDreams 22:50, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)


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Blooming Grove, Ohio

Blooming Grove is an unincorporated community in northeastern North Bloomfield Township, Morrow County, Ohio, United States. The community is located at the junction of State Route 97 and Morrow County Road 20. The nearest city is Galion, Ohio, located to the northwest. Mount Gilead, the county seat of Morrow County, is located southwest of Blooming Grove on State Route 61.

History
Blooming Grove was platted in 1835. The name Blooming Grove is commendatory. The post office at Blooming Grove was called Corsica. This post office was established in 1844, and remained in operation until 1912.

The community is the nearest settlement to the birthplace of Warren G. Harding, the 29th President of the United States of America. President Harding's father, George Tryon Harding, was also born in the district. The Harding birthplace is no longer standing, but the site is marked by an Ohio Historical Society Marker.

The Olentangy River begins 3/4 of a mile southwest of the village.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Blooming Grove, Ohio


text:
Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese

Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese is a Grade II listed public house at 145 Fleet Street, on Wine Office Court, City of London. Rebuilt shortly after the Great Fire of 1666, the pub is known for its literary associations, with its regular patrons having included Charles Dickens, G. K. Chesterton and Mark Twain.

The pub is on the Campaign for Real Ale's National Inventory of Historic Pub Interiors.

Age
Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese is one of a number of pubs in London to have been rebuilt shortly after the Great Fire of 1666. There has been a pub at this location since 1538. While there are several older pubs which have survived because they were beyond the reach of the fire, or like The Tipperary on the opposite side of Fleet Street because they were made of stone, this pub continues to attract interest due to the lack of natural lighting inside.

Some of the interior wood panelling is nineteenth century, some older, perhaps original. The vaulted cellars are thought to belong to a 13th-century Carmelite monastery which once occupied the site. The entrance to this pub is situated in a narrow alleyway and is very unassuming, yet once inside visitors will realise that the pub occupies a lot of floor space and has numerous bars and gloomy rooms. In winter, open fireplaces are used to keep the interior warm. In the bar room are posted plaques showing famous people who were regulars.

The pub is currently owned and operated by the Samuel Smith Old Brewery.

Literary associations
The literary figures: Oliver Goldsmith, Mark Twain, Alfred Tennyson, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, G.K. Chesterton, P. G. Wodehouse and Samuel Johnson are all said to have been 'regulars'. However, there is no recorded evidence that Johnson ever visited the pub, only that he lived close by, at 17 Gough Square. At The Johnson Club supper, 13 December 1892, 'an eloquent gentleman, present, an Irish former MP, pointed out that when Johnson acted on his suggestion "let us take a walk down Fleet Street" the Cheshire Cheese must of necessity have been included among his places of call.'

A 1680 broadside ballad called A New Ballad of the Midwives Ghost tells a fantastical story of how a midwife haunted the house where she died until she was able to induce the new residents there to dig up the bones of some bastard children she had made away with and buried there. The final lines of the ballad insist upon the veracity of the tale and even that the children's bones may be seen for proof displayed at the Cheshire Cheese.

Charles Dickens had been known to use the establishment frequently, and it is alluded to in his A Tale of Two Cities: following Charles Darnay’s acquittal on charges of high treason, Sydney Carton invites him to dine, "drawing his arm through his own" Carton leads him to Fleet Street "up a covered way, into a tavern … where Charles Darnay was soon recruiting his strength with a good plain dinner and good wine". R. L. Stevenson mentions the Cheese in The Dynamiter (1885), 'a select society at the Cheshire Cheese engaged my evenings.' A Tale of Two Cities was in part the inspiration for the American children's book The Cheshire Cheese Cat by Carmen Agra Deedy, Randall Wright and Barry Moser, which is set in the pub.

The Cheshire Cheese pub appears in Anthony Trollope's novel Ralph the Heir, where one of the characters, Ontario Moggs, is described as speaking "with vigor at the debating club at the Cheshire Cheese in support of unions and the rights of man..."

Wodehouse, though so many of his characters were members of posh London clubs, often preferred the homey intimacy of the pub. In a letter to a friend he wrote, "Yesterday, I looked in at the Garrick at lunchtime, took one glance of loathing at the mob, and went off to lunch by myself at the Cheshire Cheese." The pub is mentioned by name in some of his books as well.

The Rhymers' Club was a group of London-based poets, founded in 1890 by W. B. Yeats and Ernest Rhys. Originally not much more than a dining club, it produced anthologies of poetry in 1892 and 1894. They met at the Cheshire Cheese and in the 'Domino Room' of the Café Royal.

R. Austin Freeman in his 1913 novel The Mystery of 31 New Inn describes a luncheon at the pub in some detail, including mention of the beef-steak pudding and 'the friendly portrait of the "great lexicographer" [Johnson] that beamed down...from the wall'.

According to the Betty Crocker cookbook, both Dickens and Ben Jonson dined on Welsh rarebit at this pub, although Jonson died almost a century before the dish is first known to have been recorded.

Soviet writer Boris Pilnyak visited the pub during his stay in London in 1923. He later wrote a story entitled "Staryi syr," ("old cheese" in Russian) a part of which takes place in the Cheshire Cheese Pub. There is a chapter devoted to the Cheshire Cheese and the 'Companions of the Cheshire Cheese' (W. B. Yeats' poem The Grey Rock 1914) in That Irishman: The Life and Times of John O'Connor Power by Jane Stanford.

Agatha Christie wrote that her fictional detective Hercule Poirot dined with a new client at the Cheshire Cheese in her 1924 story The Million Dollar Bond Robbery, adding a description of "the excellent steak and kidney pudding of the establishment."

The founding meeting of the Medical Journalists' Association took place at the 'Cheese' on 1 February 1967. At that time, health journalism was in its infancy, and medical doctors who wrote articles under their own name could be reported to the General Medical Council. From an initial membership of 48, the MJA now represents around 500 journalists, broadcasters and editors.

Alexander Theroux's story "An English Railroad" is set in the Cheshire Cheese.

Polly the Parrot
For around 40 years, Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese was associated with a grey parrot named Polly. On its death in 1926 around 200 newspapers across the world wrote obituaries, while the news was read out on radio station 2LO.

Erotic tiles
In 1962, the pub gave the Museum of London a number of sexually explicit erotic plaster of Paris tiles recovered from an upper room. These tiles strongly suggest that the room was used as a brothel in the mid-eighteenth century.

In Popular Culture
Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese is mentioned in Alexander De Chastelaine's pirate romance novel The Terror of Saint Lawrence.

title: Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese


text:
Talk:Madrugada (band)

Future??
So guys, what's gonna happen? Are they going to dissolve or they'll find a new guitarist? --KaragouniS 19:48, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

title: Talk:Madrugada (band)


text:
Mike Lupica

Michael Lupica (born May 11, 1952) is an author and former American newspaper columnist, best known for his provocative commentary on sports in the New York Daily News and his appearances on ESPN.

Biography
Lupica was born in Oneida, New York, where he spent his pre-adolescent years, having attended St. Patrick's Elementary School through the sixth grade. In 1964, he moved with his family to Nashua, New Hampshire, where he attended middle school and subsequently Bishop Guertin High School, graduating in 1970. In 1974 he graduated from Boston College. He first came to prominence as a sportswriter in Pottstown, Pennsylvania. Lupica wrote "The Sporting Life" column at Esquire magazine for ten years beginning in the late 1980s, and currently writes a regular column for Travel + Leisure Golf. He has also written for Golf Digest, Parade, ESPN The Magazine, and Men’s Journal, and has received numerous awards including, in 2003, the Jim Murray Award from the National Football Foundation.

Daily News columnist
Lupica wrote several sports columns during the week for the Daily News, as well as a signature Sunday column, "Shooting from the Lip," which featured a traditional column followed by a series of short, acerbic observations from the week in sports. Later in his career he began writing a regular political column entitled "Mondays with Mike," which is strongly liberal in orientation. He left the Daily News in July 2018.

Favorite Lupica targets include the New York Yankees (and will often state their massive payroll in most of his articles), James L. Dolan, Isiah Thomas, Notre Dame football, Rudy Giuliani, Michael Bloomberg, former President George W. Bush, and former Vice President Dick Cheney. Lupica has also been a harsh critic of the new Yankee Stadium and was a vehement opponent of the proposed West Side Stadium. He has likewise been highly critical of the Atlantic Yards project and the attendant construction of the Barclays Center in Brooklyn.

Author
Lupica co-wrote autobiographies with Reggie Jackson and Bill Parcells and collaborated with screenwriter William Goldman on Wait Till Next Year and Mad as Hell: How Sports Got Away From the Fans and How We Get It Back. Lupica also wrote Summer of ’98: When Homers Flew, Records Fell, and Baseball Reclaimed America, which detailed how the 1998 and the Mark McGwire/Sammy Sosa home run chase had allowed him to share a love for baseball with his son. Lupica has been listed a vocal critic of the steroid era.

Lupica is also a novelist; his work includes mysteries involving fictional NYC television reporter Peter Finley. One of them, Dead Air, was nominated for the Edgar Allan Poe Award for Best First Mystery and the 1987 Anthony Award in the same category; and was also adapted into a television movie called Money, Power, Murder. He has written a novel for younger audiences called Travel Team. Lupica’s Bump and Run and Wild Pitch were best sellers. 2003 saw a sequel to Bump and Run, entitled Red Zone.In April 2006, his second children's book, Heat, was published by Philomel. Heat is a fictional story based on the Danny Almonte scandal in the South Bronx Little League. In October 2006, Lupica's third children's novel, Miracle on 49th Street, was published. Summer Ball, a sequel to Travel Team, was released in 2007.

Television and radio work
Since 1988 Lupica has been one of the rotating pundits on The Sports Reporters on ESPN. He also briefly hosted an unsuccessful television chat program, The Mike Lupica Show, on ESPN2, as well as a short-lived radio show on WFAN in New York City in the mid-1990s. He has been a recurring guest on the CBS Morning News, Good Morning America, and The MacNeil-Lehrer Newshour. Lupica has made frequent radio appearances on Imus in the Morning since the early 1980s. Lupica hosted a daily radio show on WEPN-FM from May 9, 2011, until August 21, 2015.

Adult books

 * Reggie! (with Reggie Jackson, 1984)
 * Parcells: An Autobiography of the Biggest Giant of Them All (with Bill Parcells, 1987)
 * Wait 'till Next Year: The Story of a Season When What Should've Happened Didn't and What Could've Gone Wrong Did (with William Goldman, 1988)
 * Shooting From The Lip: Essays, Columns, Quips, and Gripes in the Grand Tradition of Dyspeptic Sports Writing (1988)
 * Jump! (1995)
 * Mad as Hell: How Sports Got Away from the Fans and How We Get It Back (1996)
 * Summer of '98: When Homers Flew, Records Fell, and Baseball Reclaimed America (1999)
 * Yankees '98: Best Ever! (a compendium of Daily News coverage, 1999)
 * Bump and Run (2000)
 * Full Court Press (2001)
 * Wild Pitch (2002)
 * Red Zone (2003)
 * Too Far (2004)
 * Best American Sports Writing 2005 (edited by; 2005)
 * Fathers & Sons & Sports: An Anthology of Great American Sports Writing (2008)

Young adult books

 * Heat (2005)
 * Miracle on 49th Street (2006)
 * The Big Field (2008)
 * Million-Dollar Throw (2009)
 * The Batboy (2010)
 * Hero (2010)
 * Underdogs (2011)
 * True Legend (2012)
 * QB 1 (2013)
 * Fantasy League (2014)
 * The Only Game (2015)
 * Fast Break (2015)
 * The Extra Yard (2017)

Adult series

 * Peter Finley series
 * Dead Air (1986)
 * Extra Credits (1990)
 * Limited Partner (1990)

Young adult series

 * Comeback Kids series
 * Two-Minute Drill (2007)
 * Hot Hand (2007)
 * Safe at Home (novel) (2008)
 * Long Shot (2008)
 * Shoot-Out (2010)

 * Game Changers series
 * Game Changers (2012)
 * Play Makers (2013)
 * Heavy Hitters (2014)

Zach and Zoe mystery series
 * The Hockey Rink Hunt

 * Related books
 * Travel Team (2004)
 * Summer Ball (2007)

title: Mike Lupica


text:
User talk:Drivinghighway61

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Warwickshire ring

The Warwickshire ring is a connected series of canals forming a circuit around the West Midlands area of England. The ring is formed from the Coventry Canal, the Oxford Canal, the Grand Union Canal, the Stratford-upon-Avon Canal and the Birmingham and Fazeley Canal. It is a popular route with tourists due to its circular route and mixture of urban and rural landscapes.

The ring totals 106 miles and has 115 locks, although there are two alternative routes through the southern part of Birmingham - from Kingswood Junction, one route follows the Grand Union Canal to Salford Junction, where it joins the Birmingham and Fazeley Canal, and the other follows the Stratford Canal (north) and Worcester and Birmingham Canal to Gas Street Basin in central Birmingham. The latter route is slightly longer and has more locks, but many consider it to be more scenic and interesting.

Route
There is something of everything, in canal terms, around the Warwickshire Ring. There are wide beam and narrowbeam locks; there is idyllic open rolling countryside, and the grimness of industry, some of it removed, some of it improved, and some of it still there in all its awfulness. There are tourist honeypot sites, like Warwick Castle, and there are world class attractions like Drayton Manor Theme Park.

The ring is made up of parts of four canals.
 * Grand Union Canal
 * Birmingham and Fazeley Canal
 * Coventry Canal
 * Oxford Canal

Grand Union Canal
Starting at Braunston Turn, the route heads west along the Grand Union Main Line for five miles to Napton Junction, through pleasant farm land. The only village close to the canal is Lower Shuckburgh. This section was originally owned by the Oxford Canal. At Napton Junction, the Oxford Canal continues straight ahead, but the ring turns to the north, passing Napton Reservoirs on the left before descending through the first three locks at Calcutt. Prior to 1929, this section was owned by the Warwick and Napton Canal company, which amalgamated with several other companies to form the Grand Union Canal. One immediate benefit was a plan costing £881,000 to widen the locks. The original narrow locks, replaced by three wide beam ones in the 1930s, are still there alongside.

Turning westward, the canal heads towards Stockton locks. These eight locks carry the canal downhill to Long Itchington, and again the old narrow locks are still visible. After two more isolated locks, there are the Bascote four, with the top two forming a staircase. Six more locks take the canal on to the floor of the Leam (pronounced "Lem") and Avon valleys. At Royal Leamington Spa, the ornamental Jephson Gardens commemorate Dr. Jephson, who lived from 1798 to 1878, who worked hard to establish the medical reputation of the spa, while tourist attractions at Warwick include the fourteenth century Warwick Castle, which is set in grounds laid out by the landscape architect Capability Brown.

The climb out of the Avon Valley begins at the two Cape Locks, where the Cape of Good Hope pub serves a locally brewed ale called Two Locks, on account of the brewery being two locks down from the pub. The route then turns right onto the line of the Warwick and Birmingham Canal, another of the constituent canals that made up the Grand Union Canal. To the left Saltisford Basin is run by a Canal Trust; it once led to the terminus of the Warwick and Birmingham Canal, prior to the construction of the Warwick and Napton Canal.

After climbing a few of the 21 Hatton Locks, the view opens up to show the enormous locks climbing the hill in an unbroken line westwards. Although heavy to operate, the locks fill and empty quickly. From Hatton top, there is a ten-mile respite from locks, punctuated by the 443 yd Shrewley Tunnel, which passes under Shrewley village. The tunnel, which has a towpath and is wide enough to allow two 7 ft boats to pass each other, emerges near to the village centre.

At Kingswood Junction, there is a choice of route. For those intending to go to Gas Street and Birmingham city centre, the narrowbeam Stratford-on-Avon Canal offers more locks and a longer passage, but for boaters going straight round the ring, the main line route is shorter and quicker. The five locks at Knowle raise the canal to its summit. They replaced six narrow locks in 1930, the remains of which can still be seen to one side of the channel, and are the last wide locks before Birmingham. After passing under the M42 motorway, an aqueduct carries the canal over the River Blythe, before it turns to the west near Solihull. The journey through Solihull is in a deep leafy cutting, shielding the boater from urban views. Trees then give way to disused wharves and housing estates.

The six Camp Hill locks are narrow beam and drop the canal down to Bordesley Junction, where the Warwickshire Ring turns to the right. Ahead is the route to Digbeth Basin: in the 1930s it was the Birmingham Hub of a national canal transport system. There are bonded warehouses, an ice house, a major Fellows Moreton & Clayton warehouse, a banana warehouse and in Typhoo Basin, a tea warehouse.

From Bordesley Junction, Saltley Cut was reviled as the filthiest place on the whole canal system, with gas works, a power station, railway works and a chemical works all generating or receiving cargoes, and discharging waste into the canal. It has been cleaned up now, and there is new housing facing the waterfront.

The five Garrison Locks lower the canal into the valley of the River Rea, which it crosses on an aqueduct. The Rea is a tributary of the River Tame, which it also crosses just before Salford Junction, where the Grand Union Canal meets the Birmingham and Fazeley Canal and the Tame Valley Canal. Nechells Shallow Lock once controlled the exit from the Grand Union Canal, but is no longer fitted with gates. The junction and the aqueduct are overshadowed by the road decks of spaghetti junction, which tower above them.

Birmingham and Fazeley Canal
At Salford Junction, boaters following the Warwickshire Ring turn to the right onto the Birmingham and Fazeley Canal, which is sandwiched between the backs of factories and the M6 motorway. The route passes a major electricity high voltage distribution centre on the south bank, before reaching Erdington Hall, where a factory has been built over the canal, almost forming a tunnel, although one side remains open to the light. Close by was Fort Dunlop, where the Dunlop Rubber company made pneumatic tyres, employing 10,000 workers at the peak of production in the 1950s.

Eventually the canal re-emerges into the comparative calm of Minworth, where three locks lower the level of the canal. To the south is Minworth Sewage Treatment Works, one of the largest in Britain, capable of treating 220 million gallons (1000 Megalitres) per day. The canal continues through a cutting lined with trees, through the short Curdworth tunnel, which is 57 yd long, to pass under the M6 Toll motorway. The first of the eleven Curdworth locks is immediately after the bridge, and the canal continues through open countryside and flooded gravel pits, although the M42 motorway is never far away to the east.

Some of the gravel pits have been landscaped to form Kingsbury Water Park, which covers 600 acre and contains 30 lakes and pools, providing activities including walking, nature trails, sailing, windsurfing, power boating and horse riding. There is also a children's farm at Broomey Croft. At Fazeley, the canal runs alongside Drayton Manor Theme Park, and crosses Bourne Brook, another tributary of the River Tame, to arrive at Fazeley Junction and the Coventry Canal.

Coventry Canal
The section of the Coventry Canal which turns to the left was actually built by the Birmingham and Fazeley Canal, because the Coventry Canal ran out of money. However, the Warwickshire Ring turns to the right, along the section built before the shortage of capital occurred. Near the junction is Fazeley Mill, which began making tape in 1886, and has continued to use the same processes ever since. There is also a mill which was built to Richard Arkwright's pattern in 1791, and is one of the best surviving mills of its type.

A large aqueduct carries the canal over the River Tame, after which it is bordered by the houses and factories of Tamworth. Between the 1930s and 2001, the Reliant Car Company was based in Tamworth, and manufactured Reliant Robin cars beside the canal. Tamworth also has a castle, which exhibits a wide mix of architectural styles. The motte is Norman, the timbered hall is Elizabethan and the apartments are Jacobean.

Two locks raise the level of the canal in Tamworth, after which there is a long level section. Once beyond the housing estates of Tamworth, the canal passes the remains of Alvecote Priory and turns to the south-east. After being crossed by the M42 motorway, it joins the valley of the River Anker, which it follows on a ledge on the west side of the valley. It passes through the centre of Polesworth, and is then surrounded by farmland, before it begins to ascend out of the valley to Atherstone, through a flight of eleven narrow locks. Atherstone was a hatting town, where hats were made from Tudor times, including many for the armies of the world. Towards the end of the twentieth century, hats went out of fashion, and the economy of the town declined. Mercury was used to make certain types of felt, and its toxicity, which affects the brain, led to the expression "Mad as a Hatter".

Between Atherstone and Nuneaton, the canal water is rust coloured, caused by leaching of minerals from the soil, and there are the remains of large granite quarries, many now landscaped and acting as nature reserves. A prominent feature is Mount Judd, a mountain created from waste material from Judkins Quarry.

To the south of Nuneaton is Marston Junction, where the Ashby Canal joins, and beyond that, the canal skirts the eastern edge of Bedworth in a long cutting. Shortly afterwards, the canal reaches Hawkesbury Junction, where the Coventry Canal continues for another 5.5 mi into the centre of Coventry, and the Oxford Canal turns off to the south-east. Originally, the junction was a little further to the south at Longford.

At Hawkesbury Junction there is an old engine house, a graceful curved bridge and the Greyhound pub. Although not part of the Warwickshire Ring, the route into Coventry is a flagship of urban regeneration. The towpath has been cleaned up, resurfaced, lit, policed, and adorned with sculptures and other works of art, and is now a thoroughly pleasant place to walk or cruise. The journey is like a catalogue for a historic vehicle rally, for manufactured here were Daimlers, Rileys, Hillmans and Humbers.

Access to Coventry Basin is through a tiny bridge hole, which was designed so that it could be sealed off each evening by a large wooden beam. The basin has been beautifully and sympathetically restored, with new retail units blending seamlessly with buildings from another era. The focal point is a more than life sized statue of James Brindley standing in the centre.

Oxford Canal
From Hawkesbury Junction, the Oxford Canal twists and turns while generally heading south east, as its engineer James Brindley built a contour canal which closely followed the contours of the land. In the 1820s, it was straightened and shortened by creating cuttings and embankments to make it a better competitor to the railways, and the distance to Braunston was almost reduced from 36 mi to 22 mi. Where the original meanderings remain, the towpath is carried over the junction on elegantly engineered cast iron bridges, carrying the inscription "Horseley Ironworks 1828".

Much of the route is rural, although the M69 motorway and the M6 motorway both cross the canal. Brinklow was once served by an arm of the canal, which is now disused, and an aqueduct on the main line near its start has been turned into an embankment by filling in the arches. At Newbold-on-Avon there is a 250 yd tunnel, beyond which the scenery is much more urban, although the canal passes to the north-east of Rugby on an embankment, and is separated from it by a railway line.

There is quite a community of boaters and businesses at Hillmorton Locks, which were duplicated in the 1830s to alleviate congestion. The 820 ft high Hillmorton Wireless Aerials, built in 1924, are a significant landmark for miles around. Beyond Hillmorton, the canal turns under the railway, and then passes under the M45 motorway, to head for Braunston. The very distinctive spire of Braunston Church is another landmark on the final part of the journey back to the start of the Warwickshire Ring.

title: Warwickshire ring


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Madurese people

Madurese, Madurans, Madurites or Madurace (mUH-dOO-rUH; أَوريڠ مادْوراْ; ꦠꦾꦁꦩꦼꦝꦸꦤ꧀ꦠꦼꦤ꧀) are one of the Javan ethnic groups native to the Indonesian island of Madura in Java Sea, off the northeastern coast of Java. They speak their own native Madurese language (with diverse varieties), shared common history, traditions, and cultural identity. Nationwide, the Madurese are the third largest ethnic group in Indonesia, and one of the well-known Indonesian national dishes of Satay also ultimately attributed as the national culinary heritage of Madura-origin invented by the Madurese.

There are about six million native Madurese who lived in their ancestral land on Madura Island, and about half of million lived in the eastern Java, mainly in the regencies of Jember, Banyuwangi, etc. The Madurese population in Java formed a subgroup called Pandalungan Madurese, and they speak admixture of Javanese and Madurese languages.

Not only well known as the inventor of satay, the Madurese people also known as the inventor of Karapan sapi bull race, they are also persistent merchants who could open their shops for 24 hours non-stop and they also one of the pioneers of classical Islamic religious movements in Indonesia, with the Pondok Pesantren become the vital hotspot for the Madurese Muslims to learn about Islamism (especially Indonesian Islamism). Besides being the merchants, traditionally the Madurese diaspora are known as the farmers as well as the Pencak silat martial art practitioners who would work with their cultural Clurit sickle, their male cultural clothing prominently characterized by the red and white stripes which derived from the Majapahit naval flag (a historical eastern Java empire that was once controlled the Madura Island), however the larger spectrums such as black, red, yellow, white, green, and blue are also considered as the cultural colors of the Madurese people, which could be observed through their traditional Madurese-style batik.

Population and distribution
Official and academic data on the population of Madurese people vary considerably. During the nationwide population census conducted in Indonesia in 2010, the Madurese people make up 3.03% of the country's population, that is 7,179,356 people. On the other hand, some scientific sources operate with significantly larger figures around 10.5 to 10.8 million people. In any case, the Madurese people are among the largest ethnics of Indonesia, thus, according to the statistics of the 2010 census, they occupy the fourth largest ethnic group after the Javanese people, Sundanese people and Batak people.

Historically, the Madurese people inhabit Madura Island and located to the east of it, a group of smaller islands in Java Sea such as Kambing Island, Sapudi Islands and Kangean Islands. Here they number about 3.3 million people, which is more than 90% of the population in these territories. Approximately the same number of Madurese people living in the eastern end of the Java Island, and more than 400,000 people in various parts of the Indonesian part of the island of Kalimantan. In addition, tens of thousands of the Madurese people live in other regions of Indonesia; especially, there are significant Madurese communities in the capital city of Jakarta (about 80,000 people), in Bali (about 30,000 people) and in the province of Bangka Belitung Islands (more than 15,000 people). There are also small Madurese communities in the countries of Southeast Asia adjacent to Indonesia, particularly, in Singapore.

Language
The Madurese people speak the Madurese language, which belongs to the Austronesian family, more specifically the Malayo-Sumbawan group. It is divided into several dialects. Linguistically, there are different points of view regarding the dialects of the Madurese language. Older works would normally identify two or four dialects, but modern specialists have concluded that there are six dialects. The most developed dialect in the lexical terms is the Sumenep dialect, which underlies the literary Madurese language. The most common dialect is Bangkalan, which often functions as a lingua franca between Madurese people from different localities.

In some parts of East Java among a significant number of Madurese population, a peculiar mixed of Madurese-Javanese dialect has formed. In addition to these native languages, many are also fluent in Indonesian, the national language.

Religion
The majority of Madurese practice Sunni Islam. Characteristically, unlike a significant part of their fellow religious Indonesians, Madurese people enjoy a reputation as very zealous adherents of Islam. Muslim theologians play an important role in their spiritual and social life. A significant part of the Madurese people is trained in traditional Pesantren Muslim schools, which play an important role in their spiritual and social life.

Basic livelihood
Family is important to the Madurese and they commonly live in villages that function around an Islamic religious center. According to Islamic law, a man may have more than one wife. Marriage proposals are usually made by the groom's parents, preferably to a first or second cousin. If the proposal is accepted, the bride's parents are then presented with the "bride price", which is usually cattle. The groom's parents then set the date for the upcoming wedding. Newlywed couples often live with the bride's family. Islam is an integral part of the social, political and economic life of the Madurese.

The main traditional occupations of the Madurese are animal farming, which mainly includes breeding of cattle, goats, horses, poultry and fighting cocks. The Madurese are known for herding cattle, hence they are often referred by a common nickname as the "cowboys" of Indonesia. Cattle are an important part of the culture, and bull-racing is one of their favorite sports.

Agriculture among the Madurese people on the island of Madura is poorly developed due to low fertility and very poor soil conditions, thus farming is not important in Madurese culture. As a result, the Madurese tend not to farm, unless on other islands with very good soil conditions, such as the Madurese people in Java, where agriculture is practiced more widely and have developed to a lesser degree. The main crops are such as corn, cassava, rice, tobacco, beans and cloves. Among craftsmen, tanning, pottery, batik manufacturing, blacksmithing, as well as small vassals and boat builders are also important occupations. In coastal areas, the Madurese are actively engaged in fishing, trading and as well as extraction of salt (from Madura Island). Lastly, the Madurese people also enjoyed a reputation in the region as skilled seafarers. Madurese residents of large cities, particularly in eastern Surabaya are actively involved in modern economic sectors.

Settlements
Traditional Madurese settlements are scattered and rarely linear in layout, depending rather on the direction of the roads. In most villages, there are paddocks for cattle rearing. Houses are made of bamboo and often built on low stilts. They have a frame structure usually supplemented with a veranda. Roofs are covered with palm leaves or reeds, however from the last third of the 20th century, the usage of roof tiles is increasingly common.

Transmigration
Low yields on soils had long served the cause of mass migrant labor and the relocation of the local population outside the island, where the Madurese were major clients of the government's large-scale transmigration programmes undertaken by both the Dutch colonial administration as well as the authorities of independent Indonesia in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, through which they settled in relatively sparsely populated areas of Indonesia's other islands, especially Kalimantan. As a result of this program, more than half of the ethnic Madurese people currently living outside of their customary homeland had settled in many regions of Indonesia, where communities of former transmigrants and their descendants that still maintain their Madurese identity.

Madurese people have lived on the territory of Java for several centuries, forming the ethnic majority in some of the north-eastern regions of the island. They tend to get along well with the Javanese people in relation to language, culture, and way of life. Mixed marriages between Javanese and Madurese people are also common. Moreover, in some areas of eastern Java, there are significant communities of descendants of such pendalungan marriages, which are distinguished by their unique cultural traditions that combine Madurese and Javanese elements to varying degrees.

Another situation often develops in the provinces of West Kalimantan and Central Kalimantan, where Madurese people resettled under the transmigration programmes in 1900 to 1950 in the span of 90 years. Some of these migrant groups have been the subject of conflict with Dayak communities. The native population, especially the Dayaks were quite wary of strangers, and seeing them as a threat to their traditional livelihoods. Mutual distrust also promote ethnic and cultural and religious differences, where most Dayak people practices Christianity or Kaharingan. The most publicized conflict has been on various localities in Kalimantan, where thousands were killed in a series of large scale armed fighting between the Madurese and the Dayak people during the late 1990s.

In West Kalimantan there was communal violence between Dayaks and Madurese in 1996, in the Sambas conflict in 1999 and the Sampit conflict 2001, resulting in large scale massacres of Madurese. In the Sambas conflict, both Malays and Dayaks people massacred the Madurese people. Tens of thousands of Madurese people from Kalimantan were forced to move to Madura and Java. By the mid-2000s, the situation has somewhat stabilized and enabled the return of most of the Madurese resettlement back in Kalimantan.

Cuisine
For the Madurese people, their traditional cuisine is characterized by a fairly large use of meat; of which primarily prepare miniature skewers called satay accompanied with special sweet marinade and thick sharp sauce made from peanut, has enjoyed a wide popularity in many parts of Indonesia. In addition, traditional Madurese culinary are characterized by the active use of corn and, in general, greater salinity and spiciness of dishes compared to other regional cuisines of the country.

Folk art and traditional attire

Culturally the Madurese people are close enough to eastern Javanese that they share similar forms of folklore, music (including gamelan), dance, and shadow theater or wayang. The traditional attire, however, is very specific to the Madurese people. Men would wear a completely black long-skirted coat with a wide belt, which most often hooks under a shirt that comes in broad red and white stripes, along with a checkered sarong. While women would have donned a dark blue or mottled jacket over a sarong.

Bull racing
A truly unique tradition of the islanders is bull racing, known as Karapan sapi, where local bred bulls harnessed in special light carts are led by a charioteer, usually a young man or teenager. Such competitions are typical of Madura, where they serve as its main tourist attraction. Races are held annually in August and October in different localities, after which their winners compete in the final round, which is traditionally held in Pamekasan. Races are usually accompanied by gamelan performances and folk festivities.

By the end of the 1980s, the popularity of Madurese bull racing had grown so much that the winner of the competition would be awarded with a prize on behalf of the president of Indonesia. In addition, the scene of the races was depicted on the reverse of coins of 100 Indonesian rupiah, produced from 1991 to 1998.

Brawling
Traditionally in terms of socio-economic life of the Madurese people, there had been a visible impact on their national character. They are often characterized as hard workers, stubborn, courageous, possessing integrity, loyal, generous, fair; and, at the same time, sharpness, resentment, extreme frugality, isolation, arrogant, hot-tempered, prone to violence and distrust towards strangers - especially against the backdrop of kindness and sociability of their neighbors such as the Javanese people.

In rural areas, the Madurese still practice an ancient tradition of vendetta, called carok (also spelled charok) which literally means "battle of honor". In the 1990s, law enforcement agencies in each of the four districts in Madura have recorded dozens of cases each year. The killing may provoke resentment, quite small by the standards of ordinary European or Indonesian. According to local criminal statistics, most of the reason for such attacks are usually molestation of women or property dispute, but it often happens that the Madurese's cruel revenge is motivated by an insufficiently polite treatment or insult in public places to one's honor.

Instrument of revenge used in this dueling is often the traditional Madurese crescent knife, celurit which is the most common peasant weapon and in some areas and also the attribute of traditional male attire. In such cases, the avenger usually prepares the celurit in advance in an event of dueling by casting special spells on the weapon.

Sometimes in the "battle of honor" are involved several people from each side - relatives and friends of the offender and the offended, and then it turns into a bloodbath. Such massive bloodshed have repeatedly occurred in Madura even in the 21st century. The most famous incident in recent years, a mass carok occurred on 13 July 2006 in Bujur Tengah village, Pamekasan Regency, East Java, Indonesia, resulting stabbing and killing of seven men and seriously injuring nine people.

title: Madurese people