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Talk:Lansing, Michigan

24th Most Dangerous City
Why is there no mention of Lansing being the 24th most dangerous city according to the FBI? I understand that city officials and town supporters want to make sure that Lansing comes across well in this article, but this is an important piece of information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.99.65.84 (talk) 18:51, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

County Seat Issue
This County Seat Issue as it is currently written is incorrect. I'm guessing the distinction Kestenbaum is making is that Lansing is, in fact, part of a county, but it is not the county seat, whereas Richmond, Virginia is an independent city (i.e. not affiliated with a county at all.) But the fact still stands that Richmond, Virginia and other "independent cities" are state capitals that are also not county seats.

I think this statement needs to be modified to make this distinction clear. It may be the only state capital affiliated with a county that is not also the seat of the affiliated county, but saying it is the ONLY state capital that is also not a county seat is incorrect.

 * --Ztheday 9:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

 * But independent cities like Richmond VA and Carson City NV are classified as county equivalents (e.g., by the Census bureau) and appear in lists of counties for their states. In Colorado, Denver is an independent city in all but name: Denver County is coterminus with the city, and when the city annexes territory, it is also annexed to the county.  Carson City got to be an independent city by annexing all of Ormsby County.  If someone in one of those cities were to ask, "Where's our county seat?  Where do we go for county functions?", the answer would be "Here."

 * The statement is correct and accurate as it stands, but if you have a better way of putting it, by all means, propose it. Kestenbaum 16:46, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm not trying to be a crank, but the Census Bureau's lack of a term to describe an independent city and thereby calling it a "county equivalent" does not make the city of Richmond a county. I don't know about the situation in Denver, but the situation in the Commonwealth of Virginia is unique.  The city of Richmond is isolated.  It is not affiliated with the county functions of any counties surrounding it.  When land is annexed, it is annexed to the city.  If someone in Richmond (where I lived for many years) asks, "Where's our county seat?  Where do we go for our county functions?", the answer is, "There is no county seat.  Richmond is not part of a county."  Everything that might be considered a county function is handled by the city.  Every city or county is going to have administrative tasks, but the handling of those administrative tasks does not by its very nature define an area as a county.  Upon moving to the Richmond area, Richmond's independent city status is quickly made clear.

 * Refer to the independent city page for a clear determination of the Commonwealth of Virginia's unique handling of this situation. Additionally, refer to the following quote from the wiki page on county seat:  In Virginia, there are (since 2001) 39 independent cities, which are legally distinct from the counties that surround them. An independent city interacts with the commonwealth (state) government directly whereas towns, the only other type of municipal government authority in Virginia, do so through the county government apparatus. However, many of Virginia's independent cities act as the county seat for their neighbouring counties. Also, for certain statistical purposes, some independent cities are considered part of the county from which they separated. For example, the City of Fairfax is separate from Fairfax County, but is still the county's seat and also lies within Fairfax County for statistical purposes.

 * I would propose removal of the sentence in question. It doesn't add anything of importance to the "information" on the Lansing page.  It's more of a party trivia fact than anything.  It's inclusion is not important to the page at all. Ztheday  19:48, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

 * I'm sorry, but you have a lot of that wrong. The city of Fairfax, Virginia is NOT part of Fairfax County, and is not "included" with Fairfax County in any way, even if the Fairfax County government may have some facilities located there, outside its own jurisdiction.  The city of Fairfax is a fully independent county equivalent, and (as you put it) interacts with the state directly like any other county equivalent.

 * Note that many county equivalents around the country are not titled County, including parishes in Louisiana and boroughs in Alaska. Kestenbaum 21:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

 * No, the statement is NOT wrong, it is correct (refer to the National Association of Counties). Though Fairfax is an independent city, not itself part of Fairfax County it is, nonetheless and paradoxically, the official county seat of Fairfax County.Venqax (talk) 17:45, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

 * Then someone needs to fix the wiki page on county seat because the information in my previous post about Fairfax County is directly quoted from that page. Additionally, you're missing the point if you're focusing on Fairfax County.  If you read my last post you'd know that my argument doesn't revolve around Fairfax at all.  It was just an example that was included in the quote I snagged.

 * My question is, "Why have you ignored everything I've included about Richmond, Virginia?" I assume it's because you have no information to prove that Richmond, Virginia is, in fact, not treated as a county, and this admission would ruin your claim about Lansing.  Richmond may be the only case where this holds true.  Even so, it invalidates the claim that Lansing is the only state capital that is also not a county seat.

 * The truth is, the claim about Lansing is not accurate as it stands. Lansing may be the only state capital that is affiliated with a county that is not the county seat of that county, but it is not the only state capital that is not a county seat.

That statement is correct Venqax (talk) 16:59, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

 * Again, your last note about county equivalents doesn't hold any water with me. A county equivalent is not a county.  And, if you'd read the excerpt I provided, in Virginia, "An independent city interacts with the commonwealth (state) government directly whereas towns, the only other type of municipal government authority in Virginia, do so through the county government apparatus," you'll see that the city of Richmond is not affiliated with a county, and it is not a county unto itself.  It is an independent city (therefore not a county seat), thereby invalidating the Lansing claim. Ztheday

 * Look, I'm not going to argue this any more. If the people of Michigan would rather have inaccurate trivia on their wikis than truth, then leave it. Ztheday

 * Conceptually, a county is a division of a state, imposed by the state for the state's purposes. The idea behind a "county equivalent" is not something dreamed up by Census Bureau statisticians, it is a generalization about the structures of states.  Almost every state is completely tiled by counties and county equivalents in order to administer functions which need to be available for every square inch of state territory, such as recording of births and deaths and land titles.  The specific constellation of functions assigned to counties varies from one state to another.
 * City governments, by contrast, are inherently entities created to provide specific services tailored to specific urban settlements, typically by local option. When you refer to cities being "affiliated" with a county, that totally misrepresents the relationship. You can be "affiliated" by voluntarily joining a club or association.  Cities, rather, are located within and are part of a particular county or counties.  When a city like Richmond becomes a county equivalent, that means it takes on county functions and has a different relation to its state than do ordinary cities.
 * The fact that Lansing is not a county seat is an unusual distinction (or negative distinction). Even if you exclude Richmond, Carson City, Anchorage, and Baton Rouge because their county equivalents are not labeled "county", the other 45 state capitals are all county seats.
 * Notwithstanding all this, I will now attempt to edit the sentence to reflect your concerns. Kestenbaum 23:29, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Kestenbaum, this new change is perfectly acceptable. I think this new statement truly explains the unique situation of Lansing more clearly and more accurately.  Thank you.  Ztheday

Neighborhoods
I have recently added a section on the Lansing page called "Neighborhoods" to decribe the general layout of the city by its regions: Northwest, West, East and Southsides. I've add preliminary descriptions of each with some commentary. I'm sure I'll clean them up as I read them more, and would encourage other's to add to them, and remove anything that may be deemed "too" opinionated if there is anything.

 * Would it be appropriate to mention the various neighborhood groups in this section? Maybe a table broke out with the current regions stating the group's name, geographic boundries and a link to their web site if they have one or even a Wikipedia entry.
 * --Stryder 06:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

 * I just found a nice Google map listing the various Lansing neighborhood organizations.
 * --Stryder (talk) 02:12, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

 * Upon looking at this section, again, and I think I'm the one that added it, if anything, I'd like to see it trimmed way down so as to keep the page consistent with other city pages. On most other pages the section is called "cityscape", and even for much larger cities is usually thin.  If someone would like to trim it down, that'd be great. --Criticalthinker (talk) 02:33, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Colleges, universities and trade schools?
Some friends of mine and I tried listing all of the post graduate schools in and around the Lansing area once. I wish we had written them down. Off the top of my head some that are not mentioned are Lansing Community College, Davenport University, Great Lakes Christian College, the barber college, Douglas J, Excel Academies of Cosmetology, Adams Modeling, and then CMU and Adrian both have extentions here...

You get the idea.

--Stryder 06:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

don't forget thomas m. cooley law school. it's probably the school in lansing that results in the most $ awarded to students. since it's a law school and all.

Let's not get out of control
I removed the sentence "The Lansing area is generally recognized as one of the most educated communities in the United States." It's completely and utterly false. No one outside Lansing thinks this at all, especially not people from out of state. I replaced it by saying there are many higher ed institutions, but to claim that Lansing is nationally regarded for education is false. Compare Lansing to, say, Boston. The number of colleges don't give national reputations, the caliber of the institutions themselves does.

I don't think many people in Michigan think this either, unless your talking about MSU in East Lansing about their veterinary or international programs then that would be true.

13 April 2009: Absolutely... I was born in Lansing, lived there for 18 years, and still spend a good deal of time there. It strikes me as a profoundly undereducated city, and I say this as someone who has been through the educational system, as well as a relative of educational employees. While Lansing has many schools (K-12, collegiate/professional, and technical/trades) it is generally regarded as anything BUT an educational mecca. The Lansing School District is in fact failing under state and federal guidelines, and is one of the worst performing districts in the state. -- TheFishMan

Shameless Boosterism
Whoever has been working on this entry is either a shameless booster for the city of Lansing or someone whose definitions of "lively entertainment and culture" and "gentrification" are wildly different from those used by the general population. I've taken out the worst excesses. Please, people, this is supposed to be a useful resource, not an online house of lies.

amyanda 01:30, 12 March 2006 (UTC)amyanda2000 I don't know about 'gentrification' but I can't imagine why Lansing should NOT be able to claim 'lively entertainment and culture'- maybe Lansing isn't world renowned for lively entertainment and culture, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have those things, it certainly does. Why would this be a lie? Lansing has many art and cultureal festivals and activities, several theatures- community, childrens and professional- plenty of art museums, tons of live music, concerts, commedians, and all sorts of other cultural activity. By what definition is this not lively entertainment and culture? as compared to what? If it didn't say 'the liveliest in the nation' then I don't see the complaint. There are cultural events year round and some rather big festivals that take place in lansing. amyanda 01:30, 12 March 2006 (UTC)amyanda2000

Pictures
i can provide pictures of lansing/lansing area, but what sort of pictures should i be going for? i was thinking a picture of oldsmobile stadium would be good, and a skyline picture of the downtown region. any other suggestions? Ricecake 08:23, 2 April 2006 (UTC) ricecake
 * I can get pictures of the Board of Water and Light buildings and Sparrow Hospital pretty easily. Can we use those? Nick 23:45, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Come to think of it, I live about a block from Sparrow Hospital and I can get decent shot of the capitol skyline between the Sparrow and the Professional Building. It looks very nice at sunset. Would anyone have a place for it? Lucajo 20:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Technology Economy?
I find the entire section to be useless and non-notable. The fact that the city has a few IT companies does not educate anyone about Lansing. Segelflugzeugwettbewerber 01:15, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I see where you're coming from, it's not entirly notable. While Lansing does have a Technology Economy on some level, it's not notable. LilDice 00:28, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Timeline
Why is the closing of the GM plant in Delphi in 2005 on the same timeline as the founding of the City. I think it would be notable under a section about the auto industry in Lansing, but not on that scale. Thoughts? LilDice 22:57, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

GM is a major employer in the area, and the company is one of the largest in the world. I would say the plant closing is notable enough. Personally, I don't consider the founding of Lansing to be terribly notable anyway.--Segelflugzeugwettbewerber 00:57, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

 * I'm kind of with you, but if the subject is Lansing, then things related to changes in its entity are relatively more important. But yes as the first or second largest employer in the area, a plant closing is fairly important. - Taxman Talk 02:38, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

 * So let's leave it there but start a new section on the Auto Industry. A breif synopsis and plant opening and closings. I'll put this on my todo unless someone that feels a bit more passionate about it or has more knowledge than me wants to start it. LilDice 10:36, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Factual Issue
It says at the beginning of the article that "Lansing is the only state capital city in the United States that extends into three counties". This would be an intersting factoid if it were true. Unfortunately, Columbus extends out of Franklin County, Ohio into Delaware County, Ohio and Fairfield County, Ohio. I'm going to add a fact check, and if somebody can verify the truthiness of this statement, it can stay. Otherwise it will be removed shortly.

 * Now that you mention it, isn't Oklahoma City a capital too? I think it extends into more than three counties due to annexations in recent years. Kestenbaum 17:43, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

 * You must have changed it, because I see nowehere where it says that Lansing is the only state capital to extend into three counties. The beginning paragraph simply says that the city extends into three counties. Criticalthinker 12 July 2006

I'm not sure it is even accurate that Lansing extends into 3 counties. Ingham and Eaton, yes, but I'm not sure Lansing extends into Clinton County. East Lansing does, but it's a different city.Venqax (talk) 17:40, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Places of Interest
How about adding a section about the local places of interest such as bars, resteraunts, etc? I don't mean national chains like TGI Friday's, but the locally owned places that have been around for a long time (Emil's comes to mind. Yum.). Lucajo 17:00, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think so, would just devolve into advertising. LilDice 18:04, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * That's what we have editors' for. I know before I went to Chicago I looked up several places to go check out, including a few local digs. Just a suggestion. Lucajo 23:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I mean I'd guess I'd have to take a look at some other city's pages, however remember wikipedia is not a place for original research. So you and I can't just make a list of our favorite restaurants....now if you wanted to pick a few good reviews from the LSJ...that's something else. LilDice 23:27, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * If we are to do a "Place of Interest" section, it should only be for landmarks and attractions, not bars and restaurants unless there is something VERY unique about them. Criticalthinker 19 July 2006
 * Sorry, the "bars and resteraunts" was the only thing I could think of at the time. Lucajo 16:49, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, I definitely like the idea. Someone else could start it.  BTW, I've been working with some of my images.  Hopefully, they are good enough for the page.

Criticalthinker
 * If we were to include such places as Oldsmobile Park, the Capitol Building, the State Library, the Turner-Dodge House, the Malcom X home place, and other places of clear educational, historical, or cultural import, then that would be a great addition. We should definitely leave out restaurants, stores, et cetera. As great as El Azteco is, it's not a main reason for coming to Lansing, you know? TheFishMan —Preceding undated comment added 03:11, 14 April 2009 (UTC).

Original Research
Remember, if you are adding large chunks to the page (criticalthinker) please cite your sources. Adding info to the page without citing it is not productive, an article is only as good as it's sources. LilDice 14:37, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Note 1
Note one reads:

 * "There are also two small non-contiguous tracts located in Ingham County. These sections are not highlighted on the map displayed as they are part of a 425 Agreement, meaning they do not officially count towards Lansing's area."

Actually, I've done quite a bit of research on this including contacting the Census Bureau about this, and far as they are concerned 425's, at least statistically for their standards, do count as annexations, if even not legally in Michigan. In fact, the 35.0 sq mi land area for Lansing includes all of the 425's done before 2000, so that figure includes the two 425 Agreements with Alaiedon Township and the one with Meridian Township which all happened prior to the 2000 count. Just thought I'd make this clear, and perhaps whoever made the note may want to correct it. --Criticalthinker (talk) 10:56, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Art Museum / Gallery Inclusion
The Art Museum / Gallery information I added to the Culture section was recently deleted, saying that a commercial gallery is not a museum and that 2 of the museums I listed were technically not in Lansing (they are in East Lansing). Also WP:selfpublished.

I replaced this section for a few reasons:

First, gallery goes to a disambiguation page from which I selected Art gallery, which then redirects to art museum. The article explains that public galleries for the display of art are referred to as museums. If it was determined that any of the galleries did not have public displays of art then possibly one could change 'museum' to 'gallery', although I do not think there is evidence that any of the galleries do not have public displays of art.

Second, there is a large amount of information regarding the Greater Lansing Area, of which East Lansing is a part, on the Lansing page. That may not justify the inclusion of those galleries however the majority of the galleries I added are in Lansing proper and I feel should be included. If it is determined that the East Lansing galleries should be deleted then the whole page probably needs a workover (sections such as Education including Michigan State University which is in East Lansing as well).

Finally, as for WP:selfpublished, I reviewed wp:selfpub and it does not appear as though the information used in the article violates any of the 5 points.

I am willing to discuss, but please don't bite the noob! Feltcap (talk) 15:29, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

 * None of the establishments which you listed are museums. They are commercial galleries - ie. they are businesses selling a product. Calling a gallery a museum is like calling a bookstore a library. It is perfectly appropriate in a City article to list museums and libraries, but you don't list the commercial galleries and bookstores. As for stuff in East Lansing that gets listed in the Lansing article, I agree with you that the whole article needs to be looked at, and the East Lansing related material moved there. It doesn't belong here.  As for WP:SELFPUB - the point is that every one of the sources you've cited is the web page for the gallery being listed. It looks more like and advertisement than an encyclopedia article.  Per WP:RS, reliable secondary sources are what is generally needed for a citation - eg a newspaper article about it, not a reference to the business' own web site. As for not biting noogs - you've been at this for a year now - I hardly think you qualify. Fladrif (talk) 00:54, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm in complete agreement with Fladrif on this one.--Criticalthinker (talk) 02:29, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

 * These references are used to provide location information on the galleries and show that they have publicly available art galleries.
 * Per wp:selfpub:

 * Self-published and questionable sources as sources on themselves

 * Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as:

 * the material is not unduly self-serving;
 * These are art galleries claiming to have publicly available collections, something which is expected of an art gallery as opposed to a craft store which would be purely commercial.
 * it does not involve claims about third parties;
 * They provide information regarding their collections, they do not make claims regarding other parties.
 * it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;
 * The reference is not to claim anything other than possession of art, which would be the purpose of an art gallery.
 * there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity;
 * There is no reasonable doubt that an art gallery would not display art, again a craft store might have a burden of proof but an art gallery claiming to display art is a reasonable assumption.
 * the article is not based primarily on such sources.
 * The Lansing article is not based primarily on the references, they merely provide information on the gallery location being Lansing and that a privately owned collection is on public display.

 * For those reasons I do not believe that the inclusion of these sources violates wp:selfpub. I have to go at the moment, but I will have more time tomorrow to address other concerns. Feltcap (talk) 03:48, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

 * Another guideline that applies here is WP:USCITY, and the section on museums in particular. It's vague enough that it probably won't settle this particular question, but it does point toward ensuring good sources and listing the significant (major) entities. WP:NOTGUIDE gets a little closer, particularly item 2: "Wikipedia does not list every tourist attraction, restaurant, hotel, venue, etc." I don't care for lists of things whose only references are to the organization's own website (really a link directory in disguise). Consider leaving the list out of the article until it can be referenced by a reliable third-party source that is giving the topic of galleries more than trivial coverage. ✤ JonHarder talk 17:16, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Consensus seems to be that the information is not robust enough, I will userfy the section and develop it for an attempt at later inclusion. Feltcap (talk) 04:01, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

 * On the same basis (no citation beyond a primary source), the following lists can be pruned back:
 * Public and private primary schools
 * Music
 * Theatre
 * Museums
 * Newspapers and Magazines
 * ✤ JonHarder talk 00:15, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Umm...no. The main basis was that you were including blatantly commercial ventures, and it was decided that this page would not be going in that direction. Please, just stop fighting this. --Criticalthinker (talk) 02:14, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

 * As an article matures, it is natural for lists to give way to well-documented prose. Lists have a way of enticing casual editors into adding undocumented entries in a mistaken belief that completeness is more important than core policies like verifiability or notability as defined by WikiProject Cities. I believe this article is ready to pull itself up to the next level on the path to becoming a good article. I am suggesting that editors consider ensuring that list items either have a standing article (implies notability) or are referenced with a reliable third party source that gives the topic more than trivial coverage. The quality of the source is more important to me than whether an item in question is a commercial enterprise. By trimming the lists to the most notable (and verifiable) items, this article will take another step up in quality and set the stage for the conversion of lists to paragraphs. ✤ JonHarder talk 22:40, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

 * I reverted the recent insertion of a tech company that is the type of list item we are discussion, which has brought my attention to the "tech" list. Five or six are the kind of blatantly commercial entries that Criticalthinker refers to; several others are similar but have no refs. Is there any reason not to clean up that list as well? ✤ JonHarder talk 12:49, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

 * I removed entries or links from the Economy section that were commercial organizations and self-referencing primary sources of the type we are discussing here. In a couple of cases I requested refs. ✤ JonHarder talk 00:28, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I absolutely agree with that edit. In general on the gallery issue, I don't think we should exclude mention of all galleries just because they are commercial and list all museums just because they are not, that's just anti-commercial bias. There are some pretty unimportant museums. But in order for a gallery to be listed, particularly on the main Lansing page, it would have to have demonstrable importance and impact on the city from reliable third party references. I don't know if Lansing has any such galleries, but if the sources support their importance, then they should be included on that basis. Without that support, they should certainly not be covered. It's the basic premise of allocating space in an article to the most important things, and that must be done on the basis of references. - Taxman Talk 02:27, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Climate Data Colors
I'm used to seeing cold temperatures reported with blue background and warm temperatures reported with orange and red. Is there any reason why this isn't true for this page? I'm not too familiar with how to code these tables. 66.134.4.226 (talk) 18:20, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

County seat
The intro states that Lansing is the only one of the state capitals located within a county to not be the county seat, and then says there are 44 within counties, meaning there are six without. However, I only count four:

 * Richmond (independent city)
 * Carson City (independent city)
 * Baton Rouge (parish seat)
 * Juneau (consolidated city-borough)

If it's also including consolidated city-counties, then the numbering doesn't necessarily work then either, because there are four of those as well:

 * Honolulu
 * Denver
 * Nashville (mostly)
 * Indianapolis (mostly)

So I guess it might be including only Honolulu and Denver, but still, those are counties, just coterminous with their cities. This needs a source or clarification, and in fact we probably don't need the numbering at all; simply saying "It's the only capital city in the United States which is not the seat of its county-equivalent" would work, with a link to county-equivalent maybe. Richmond and Carson City still remain county-equivalents. --Golbez (talk) 15:54, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

 * No, no, no, no, NO. It is factually the only U.S. state capital which is not the seat of the county wherein it primarily resides, as portions of Lansing are in Eaton County in the west, and Clinton County in the north. 68.32.218.121 (talk) 11:15, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Notability not established
I am going to undo an edit.

I note the following: What can be done with a dead external link See also: Linkrot

Links to dead URLs in a list of external links are of no use to Wikipedia articles. Such dead links should either be updated or removed. Note however, that the matter is different for references: see Citing sources.

The following sources are relevant: Round Table Reviews Lighthouse Literary Reviews The Midwest Book Review 7&6=thirteen (talk) 12:31, 3 August 2010 (UTC) Stan

Urban population
Since the city population, metro population, and CSA population changed with the 2010 census, should not the Urban population (in InfoBox; currently 300,032) change as well? Dj1997 (talk) 17:47, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
 * It can't be changed until the Census Bureau releases that information, which is hasn't yet. --Criticalthinker (talk) 07:46, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

IPA Pronunciation
This article should list 'lænʦiŋ as IPA pronunciation of Lansing, Michigan. 'lænsiŋ may be a standard English pronunciation, but it is not the common local pronunciation. mdkarazim (talk) 22:55, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe being a local I don't hear the "t", but I honestly don't hear the t when I pronounce it. --Criticalthinker (talk) 03:06, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I first noticed it from non-locals (especially those from East Asia) saying 'sing'; it didn't sound quite right. I observed my mom & grandma both saying it like me: somewhere between 'sing' and 'tsing'. Is there a different IPA character from 'ʦ' that would better represent this sound between 's' and 'ts' to reflect the local pronunciation? mdkarazim (talk) 23:37, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I went back an corrected my original response. I honestly don't hear anything other thing a straight "sing" on the second syllable when I or other locals says it.  I think I know what you're talking about, but it seems this is just something common in American English when you start a second syllable with an "s".  I'm not sure it's anything locally unique or anything that has its own IPA character. --Criticalthinker (talk) 01:42, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Geographical Area
I've lived in this region for years and have always wondered is there any formal geographical region the urban area lays in? By that I mean is there a formally named plain and marsh or plateau or anything in which the area sits? I honestly can't think of anything. I know the city sits up quite high in comparison to places like Flint, Grand Rapids, Battle Creek-Kalamazoo and Ann Arbor (only Jackson sits higher of the major cities), but there doesn't seem to be any geographical region for Mid-Michigan. --Criticalthinker (talk) 07:45, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

We should change the Lansing skyline photo.
I did change it, to the photo at right. Obviously someone disagreed and changed it back! Here is what I don't like about the old photo.

1. It just isn't that great of a photo. There is no contrast, everything is red/yellow, including the sky, to a point! Clearly the photo was taken at sunrise.

2. In the thumbnail visible on the article itself, the most important buildings are difficult to see - the Capitol dome in particular is nearly invisible.

3. The photo gives you no clue that a river might be flowing through downtown. The river is one of the central features of the city.

The photo I posted corrects all three of these mistakes. I understand that it shows less of the city overall, but I think the trade is well worthwhile. One possible compromise that would involve a lot more work is to do something like we see on the Grand Rapids page and make a collage of many different photos instead of trying to capture the city in one shot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Davidshane0 (talk • contribs) 15:03, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Moved latest comment to end of discussion. Please sign your posts using four tildes 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:19, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

 * Why can't we have both pictures in different parts of the article? They each have something to recommend them. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:21, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

 * I'd put the article pictured here in another part of the article, or include it in a montage like on other city infobox pages. But, as the representative photo of the Lansing skyline?  No way.  So, that's my two cents. --Criticalthinker (talk) 02:14, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

 * But we don't necessarily want the Lansing skyline, we want a photo that represents the city well. (Obviously the river is not part of the skyline.  But it's important.)  Davidshane0 (talk) 04:22, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Native American history
Is there any books on the Native American history either of the land in or in the immediate vicinity of Lansing before European/American settlement? I've lived here all my life and have heard almost nothing on what tribes used this area aside from Chief Okemos, who I'm not even sure was from the area. --Criticalthinker (talk) 06:04, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Looking for someone to nominate this article for GA status
Does anyone else think this article is up to GA status?--Bigpoliticsfan (talk) 00:10, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Clinton County
I have long wondered why this page asserts that Lansing extends into Clinton County, when I can find no evidence that this is so. I'm not denying that it is the case, but I also would like to see a citation for it. Just today I was studying the map of Lansing that is hung in the local post office and it shows the city limits stopping short of Clinton County, as best as I can tell. Same with the map in the public library. I'd be delighted to see some evidence to the contrary as this has been a puzzle to me for quite some time. I tried putting a "citation needed" tag on the claim, but that was reverted on the grounds that ... I don't have a citation to prove that it needs a citation. Er, OK. Bunnyhugger (talk) 07:30, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I can see why people are skeptical. I have seen no city maps show the 425 Agreement with Dewitt Township.  But, the transfer of land happened.  Lansing took over jurisdiction for the land that includes the airport in October 2011:

http://www.mlive.com/lansing-news/index.ssf/2011/10/lansing_airport_aerotropolis_a.html

In fact, here's another story from this year about DeWitt wanting a say on the airport, even though it is now apart of Lansing:

http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/local/community/dewitt-bath/2014/08/17/dewitt-township-seeks-voice-on-airport-master-plan/14053751/

Hope this helps. --Criticalthinker (talk) 15:32, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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Quality Dairy is a noteworthy Lansing institution
Apparently User:John from Idegon know not whereof he speaks. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 00:15, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Recent edits 6/28/2016
Hello all, I'm looking for a consensus about including the Financial Empowerment Center on the timeline. The establishment of the Financial Empowerment Center in 2013 has been a tremendously successful public-private partnership offered by the City that is helping low-income residents with their finances in Lansing. Also, Lansing is one of only 5 communities in the whole country that has such a comprehensive financial counseling program.

I had included it on the timeline, but one user decided it was "a minor event." Below is my edit. Please discuss. Thanks. •	2013—Mayor Bernero and community agencies partner with Bloomberg Philanthropies to establish Lansing as one of five U.S. cities with Financial Empowerment Centers. Lansing’s Financial Empowerment Center provides free, professional counseling to at least 4,000 residents.

http://www.lansingmi.gov/media/view/LansingLaunchesFinancialEmpowermentCenter-PR44204/5623 216.157.211.66 (talk) 15:51, 29 June 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.157.211.66 (talk) 15:37, 29 June 2016 (UTC) Thanks for moving it. I assumed it was best etiquette to have discussion about the Timeline to be under the Timeline heading, but this works, too.216.157.211.66 (talk) 17:58, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Moved to its own section as it is a new topic John from Idegon (talk) 16:21, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Move timeline to its own separate article
The timeline is not in line with the structure of the majority of settlement articles on Wikipedia. It should have its own separate article.--TheTexasNationalist99 (talk) 16:36, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it started out good, but people have been adding superificial things to it particularly since 2000, and it's become very unwieldy. I'd like to see it moved. --Criticalthinker (talk) 09:34, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Can someone who knows how to do this do this, already? The timeline is cluttering an already overly wordy article. --Criticalthinker (talk) 09:18, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
 * This needs to be remedied. --Criticalthinker (talk) 11:05, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

 * It has been. I deleted the entire section. It's almost completely unsourced. MOS discourages making lists like this in favor of writing it out in prose. I certainly know how to make a content fork article but I'm not going to make a new article that is poorly sourced, and I have neither the time nor the interest to do the research. John from Idegon (talk) 17:08, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Top city employers table updated; seeking opinions
Hello all, I just updated the "Top City Employers" table with the most recent numbers from LEAP (the Lansing Economic Area Partnership), which they update on an annual basis. There are a few changes I've been thinking about, and I wanted to get the input and assistance of others to determine whether they should be made, and what the best way is to do so. The table can be found at Template:Lansing top city employers.

 * The old data from 2014 had 15 entries, however the current data from LEAP is split into two tables: top 10 employers, and top private sector employers. To get entries 11-15, I used numbers from the private industry table; however, I tend to think reducing the list to ten entries would be a better solution, and it would more accurately represent the source data. (The most obvious reason I have is that the Meijer number listed is strictly for Lansing's distribution center; it does not count employees at Meijer stores nor any other operations they may have in the city.)

 * The text "Top City Employers" feels slightly misleading to me, as not all of these employers are in the city of Lansing proper. MSU is East Lansing, though I think that's less misleading than Dart Container, which is in Mason. Certainly all of these companies are within the Greater Lansing area, which this article also represents; but I'm simply wondering whether the text could be worded a bit differently to make that clearer, and what that better text might be.

 * The pie chart is arguably problematic. Undoubtedly I think it's neat and it'd be nice to keep, but it's 5 years old, and more importantly I can't figure out what the chart's percentages are based on. LEAP has some data about employers and places of business by industry, but none of it really matches up with this chart. Due to the combination of outdated data and lack of a reliable source to verify its accuracy, I propose its removal.

I look forward to any feedback others may provide! [Belinrahs|talk ⁄ edits] 01:28, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

 * On each point, I don't find 15 entries to be too many, quite honestly. And if I were making the list, I'd cut it off at some arbitrary number of employees like over 500 or over 1,000 instead of some set number on the list.  Heck, the Grand Rapids article lists the Top 20.  On the second point, "city" seems to be used in most wiki page on cities and is obviously not be be taken literally.  I don't find any problem with using "city" in a general regional sense.  On the last part, you could get rid of the pie chart, altogether if you've already gotten rid of the outdated data in the chart. --Criticalthinker (talk) 09:46, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

 * I definitely don't think 15 is too many; I just think the accuracy of the source data falls off after the top 10. The Grand Rapids source lists the full 20, and their numbers seem to be a bit more precise than what LEAP offers. On the second point: if other articles are wording it similarly, then I concede there's probably no good reason to change it here. Thanks! [Belinrahs|talk ⁄ edits] 13:25, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Myth of the founding of Lansing
I can't remember if I added the part about Biddle City years ago, but apparently this story is a myth:

https://www.wkar.org/post/debunking-myth-lansing-biddle-city#stream/0

If someone has some time, It'd be great if they could remove this and rewrite it. Apparently, the Ford brothers were from New York via Jackson (if I heard the story correctly in the link) and none of the original purchasers of land in the city were from Lansing, New York, even though the city is named after that town and I assume some of them came and settled here early in the settlement's history. It also appears the sale of the land was not a swindle and everything was above board. If someone can put some of these words into a coherent paragraph or two, that'd be great. It'd also cut down on some of the excess of this section, too. --Criticalthinker (talk) 05:52, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

 * Reupping this. I may change it sometime this month if no on else does. Even the source material for the myth in the current article plaining lays out that the oft-told myth of the areas settling is not true, so I'm confused as to why it's still stated exactly opposite of that. Criticalthinker (talk) 08:08, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 01:53, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Flag of Lansing, Michigan.svg

North Settlement
I've never heard this so-called settlement talked about within the history of early Lansing. Even in the source material, it does not sound as if it was a village. This is not to say it's not worth a mention, but whatever this location was - the source material doesn't mention the location listed in the note on this settlement - it was certainly outside the original boundaries of the city unlike the actual three villages. It doesn't belong in the section of the three villages which joined to become the original City of Lansing in 1859. --Criticalthinker (talk) 06:52, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Lanstronaut
I noticed the denonym "Lanstronaut" was removed in a previous revision. I brought it back, it's commonly used enough to be worth listing. Vivianthus (talk) 02:20, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Really? As someone from Lansing, I have quite literally never heard or seen it used anywhere. It's probably for the best, then, if it were removed once again, this time permanently. 68.32.218.121 (talk) 11:06, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
 * A quick web search shows several examples of it in use. In fairness it’s mostly used online and in recent years. Vivianthus (talk) 13:56, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Attribution
Text and references copied from Quality Dairy Company to Lansing, Michigan. See former article for a list of contributors. 7&6=thirteen (<b style="color:#000">☎</b>) 14:18, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Lansing, Michigan


text:
Cuauhtémoc Moctezuma Brewery

Cervecería Cuauhtémoc Moctezuma (Cervecería Cuauhtémoc Moctezuma / Heineken México) (English: Cuauhtémoc Moctezuma Brewery) is a major brewery based in Monterrey, Nuevo León, Mexico, founded in 1890. It is a subsidiary of Heineken International.

The company operates brewing plants in Monterrey, Guadalajara, Toluca, Tecate, Orizaba, Navojoa and, beginning in 2017, Meoqui. The plants produce, among other brands, Dos Equis, Sol, Bohemia, Superior, Carta Blanca, Noche Buena, Indio, Casta and Tecate. It has an annual production of 3.09 Gl (gigalitres).

History

The Cuauhtémoc brewery was founded in Monterrey in 1890 by José A. Muguerza, Francisco G. Sada Muguerza, Alberto Sada Muguerza, Isaac Garza Garza (brother in-law of Francisco and Alberto, married to their sister Consuelo Sada Muguerza), and Joseph M. Schnaider, with the capital of 150,000 pesos, starting with the Carta Blanca brand. The Cuauhtémoc brewery produced its first beer barrel in 1893 and won first prize in the Chicago and Paris world fairs. The Cervecería Moctezuma was founded near Orizaba during the late Porfiriato by German brewer Wilhelm Hasse.

In 1909 Cervecería Cuauhtémoc started to expand vertically. To provide glass bottles, in 1909, Vidrios y Cristales de Monterrey, S.A., later Vidriera Monterrey, S.A. later Grupo Vitro, was founded. In order to produce boxes, bottle caps, and packaging materials, Fábricas de Cartón Monterrey was founded in 1900. In 1929, Malta, S.A. was established to produce malt for the brewery. The cardboard box department would eventually become Titán Company.

During the Mexican Revolution, which began in 1910, its original founders supported Victoriano Huerta. As a consequence, his rival Venustiano Carranza seized the brewery, so the founders' families fled to Texas. They re-acquired the brewery through the intervention of U.S. and Russian diplomats.

The Sociedad Cuauhtémoc was founded in 1918 to provide medical and educative services to the workers' families; the final objective was to provide a welfare system to avoid strikes. The working day was reduced from twelve to nine hours in 1907.

By 1936 the holdings of the Garza, Calderón, and Sada families and their associates were divided into two groups: the Cuauhtemoc (brewery) group and the Vidriera (glass) group. In that year, the family's holdings were reorganized, creating Valores Industriales S.A. (VISA) as a holding company controlling the majority of shares of the firms formerly held by Cuauhtemoc, especially Cerveceria Cuauhtemoc and Famosa.

During the 20th century, Cervecería Cuauhtémoc Moctezuma was headed by José Calderón Muguerza and the two Garza Sada brothers Eugenio Garza Sada (assassinated in 1973 in a kidnapping attempt by Mexican left-wing guerrillas) and Roberto Garza Sada. In 1943, company executive Eugenio Garza Sada with his brother and other prominent people, founded the Monterrey Institute of Technology and Higher Education (ITESM), and in 1973, the Mexican Professional Baseball Hall of Fame was opened at the site of the company headquarters.

After Eugenio Garza Sada's assassination, VISA, the Cerveceria Cuauthtemoc Moctezuma's holding, was split into two units: Visa and Grupo Industrial Alfa. Alfa received Hylsa and cash, while Visa retained the brewery business and its stake in the Banco de Londres and its affiliated institutions, and Eugenio Garza Lagüera, a son of Eugenio Garza Sada, was named CEO of Cerveceria Cuauhtemoc Moctezuma, and Bernardo Garza Sada a son of Roberto Garza Sada was named CEO of Alfa.

When oil prices fell in 1981, Mexico's economic boom, financed with borrowed money, abruptly halted. Visa found itself more than $1 billion in debt the following year, and the federal government nationalized Banca Serfin—the nation's third-largest bank—in which Visa held a 77 percent stake. The nondeposit banks and associated financial companies in Grupo Financiero Serfin, not nationalized, were reorganized into a new financial-services group called Valores de Monterrey (Vamsa). Vamsa's life-insurance subsidiary, Seguros Monterrey, was the largest in Mexico.

With the integration of the Moctezuma brewery in 1985, the Dos Equis, Superior, Sol, and Noche Buena brands were added to the Carta Blanca, Tecate, Bohemia and Indio brands.

In 1988 Fomento Económico Mexicano, S.A. de C.V. was formed as the main subsidiary of Visa containing beer and other companies. In 1994 FEMSA sold a 22 percent share of its beer business to John Labatt Ltd. of Canada and signed an agreement with Labatt to associate their respective companies in the United States. FEMSA became the successor of Visa in 1998. On 11 January 2010, the Dutch brewing company Heineken International announced it would acquire the beer activities of FEMSA, including Cuauhtémoc Moctezuma Brewery.

In 2017 Heineken Mexico (Cuauhtemoc Moctezuma) and Molson Coors signed a deal to import Cerveza Sol to areas in the US where Heineken didn’t already import Sol. This deal also allowed Heineken Mexico (Cuauhtemoc Moctezuma) to import Molson Coors Miller and Coors brands to Mexico, a deal similar to Molson Coors importing Heineken France's Killian's to the US.

Breweries

The company operates plants in Monterrey, Tecate, Navojoa, Guadalajara, Toluca, Orizaba and for 2012 one in Chihuahua.

The company has an annual production of 3.09 GL.

Beers
The company produces several types of pale and dark lagers, some of which are available only in Mexico.

Carta Blanca
The brewery's original premium beer. Carta Blanca takes its name from the French "carte blanche".

Sol
Introduced in the 1890s, originally called El Sol. Sol is for sale in four sizes in Mexico: 500 ml, 355 ml-not refundable aluminium can, 325 ml bottles and 940 ml, this last is known as a Caguama (English: Sea turtle). New variations from Cerveza Sol include: Sol Brava (a dark beer in a light dark bottle), Sol Light, Sol Sal y Limón (Sol with lime and salt) Sol Clamato (Beer mixed with Clamato) and Sol Cero (non-alcohol beer).

Indio
Indio beer has six sizes: Aluminium can 325 ml, 355 ml-not refundable and 325 ml bottles plus a refundable and not-refundable 0.5 L bottle, a refundable 1.00 L bottle and a 1.25 L refundable bottle.

Bohemia
Bohemia 4.9% alc. takes its name from the Czech region. It is pale pilsner, although recently a new dark Vienna beer has been launched as Bohemia Obscura (see Image gallery below). In addition, Cuauhtémoc Moctezuma has added a craft-style wheat beer to the line – "Bohemia Weizen" a German Kristallweizen was released in summer 2011.

Dos Equis
Dos Equis is a lager that was brewed by the German Wilhelm Hasse in Mexico who originally founded the brewery and named it after the Aztec ruler Moctezuma. The brand was named Siglo XX ("20th century") to commemorate the arrival of the new century, and the bottles were marked with the Roman numeral for 20 ("XX"), thus "Dos Equis" which is Spanish for "two Xs".

The main brand Dos Equis XX Special Lager is a 4.45% abv pale lager sold in green bottles. Dos Equis XX Amber (in Mexico, Dos Equis Ambar) is a 4.7% Vienna-style amber lager sold in brown bottles, and was first exported to the United States in 1973. In November 2020, Dos Equis Lager Salt & Lime was introduced into limited markets (Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California, Oklahoma, Florida, Louisiana, and Hawaii) in 24 oz. cans, with 12 oz. six-packs available beginning in Spring 2021.

Dos Equis XX Mexican Pale Ale (MPA) is a 5.5% traditional pale ale with a Mexican twist, released in late 2018 on draught to various restaurants and bars across the United States. As of February 2019 it could be purchased as a six pack of 12.00 USfloz bottles or a twelve pack of 12.00 USfloz cans.

The packaging received a redesign in August 2020, with increased focus on the XX symbol and the brand's colours.

Tecate
Tecate and Tecate Light are popular pale lagers named after the city of Tecate, Baja California, where they were first produced in 1943. Originally brewed by a local company, Tecate was acquired by Cuauhtémoc Moctezuma in 1955. Tecate is sold in both distinctive red and blue aluminium cans and in twist-top bottles. Tecate Light was launched in 1992 by Héctor Emilio Ayala, who was the project manager.

In 2013 Tecate Titanium, containing a greater amount of alcohol was launched as a new product of the company. In 2019, Tecate Titanium, which contains 7.5% ABV, became available in a 24 oz. can. The goal for the US market is 189,000 cases. The campaign, "We Are Bold", targets males, specifically Hispanic C-store shoppers, according to Tecate Brand Director, Belen Pamukoff.

In 2017, Heineken announced that Tecate would be exported worldwide.

Other beers

 * Heineken
 * Amstel
 * Affligem
 * Kloster
 * Canijilla
 * Lagunitas
 * Strongbow
 * Ladron de Manzanas
 * Miller
 * Coors
 * Moctezuma
 * Noche Buena: Its name comes from the Spanish name of the poinsettia flower, commonly attached to the Christmas festivities. It is a bock styled seasonally brewed beer, usually sold from early October to late December.
 * Sito de Kaiser
 * Casta
 * Superior: Once the flagship beer of the brewery. Its marketing slogan was "La rubia que todos quieren" ("The blonde that everyone loves").

Dos Equis
In 2007, Dos Equis inaugurated its "The Most Interesting Man in the World" advertising campaign.

The advertisements feature a bearded, debonair older gentleman (originally portrayed by actor Jonathan Goldsmith) with Frontline narrator Will Lyman conducting voiceovers. As Ottmar Liebert's "Barcelona Nights" plays in the background, the advertisements featured a montage of daring exploits involving "the most interesting man" when he was younger. The precise settings are never revealed, but he performs feats such as: freeing an angry bear from a painful-looking bear trap; shooting a pool trick shot before an audience; catching a marlin while cavorting in a Hemingway-esque scene with a young woman; winning an arm-wrestling match in a South American setting; surfing a rogue wave; and bench pressing two young women in a casino setting, each woman being seated in a chair.

In the commercial he says, "I don't always drink beer, but when I do, I prefer Dos Equis." Each commercial ends with the sign-off: "Stay thirsty, my friends."

After nearly a decade of being the mascot for the beer, Goldsmith's version of the character was sent on a one-way trip to Mars in a commercial. From September 2016, "The Most Interesting Man in the World" is a French actor named Augustin Legrand.

The campaign was ended in 2018, and replaced with a new campaign called "Keep It Interesante".

Tecate
Tecate beer has begun advertising heavily in the United States; initially in the Spanish-language media and more recently in the English-language media. Their tag lines are "Con Carácter" ("With Character") and "It's not beer, it's cerveza".

Tecate was the primary sponsor of Mexican race driver Adrián Fernández during his career in CART in the 1990s and early 2000s.

In the mid 2000s, Tecate became a major sponsor in boxing. It partnered with Golden Boy Promotions in 2006, then switched to Top Rank, then returned to Golden Boy in 2016, sponsoring TV Azteca and Solo boxeo shows, and signing world champions Manny Pacquiao and Canelo Álvarez.

In 2009, Tecate Light launched a television ad campaign targeted at the Mexican-American community, which features boxer Oscar de La Hoya and wrestler Rey Mysterio Jr. Also in 2009, Tecate announced a sponsorship agreement with ESPN sports.

In the 2007 movie Hellboy II: The Golden Army, Hellboy is shown drinking Tecate Light with Abraham Sapien and in a locker room with Krauss.

In the 2014 movie That Awkward Moment, with actors Zac Efron and Miles Teller, Efron's character is shown drinking Tecate with his friends in their New York apartment.

In 2015 a series of ads were recorded with the action actor Sylvester Stallone in his role of Rocky Balboa, in this campaign Rocky appears saying the phrase "Te hace falta ver más box" (In English You need to watch more boxing) in which he gives a cold stare to some men that are not acting so "manly" (e.g. listening to pop music or putting on too many clothes for cold weather). In the end Stallone says that "Somos box" ("We are box") while retired boxers are shown and "Eye of the tiger" from Survivor) is played. In Mexico the word is changed to Bax, as Stallone uses the American English pronunciation for the sport. At the end of the commercial, Rocky looks moved by the progress of the people he helped only to receive a cold stare from Stallone himself.

Stallone later led another Mexican ad campaign with soccer players and even his rival from Rocky IV, Dolph Lundgren, to help some Mexican fans to support the National Team in the World Cup 2018.

Tecate signed Mexican boxer Canelo Álvarez in 2016.

During the 2016 presidential election campaign, Tecate ran a television ad mocking Donald Trump's proposal to build a wall between the United States and Mexico. The "Tecate Beer Wall" is "a wall that brings us together, and it's going to be huge. You're welcome, America".

In February 2020, the new campaign, "Mexico Is in Us" was launched. While the brand is moving away from "macho marketing" campaigns, it remains unapologetically, a Mexican-American beer.

Liga MX

 * C.F. Monterrey (Tecate)
 * UANL Tigres (Tecate)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Cuauhtémoc Moctezuma Brewery


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User:Sillydragon

Entertaining Things

 * BJAODN
 * Wikipedia gets pwned by a 1337 haxx0r
 * It's nice when vandals make thier edit comment 'vandalised page' for you. }:)
 * #Wikipedia Quotes

title: User:Sillydragon


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William R. Hoel

William R. Hoel (7 March 1824 – 23 May 1879) was an officer in the United States Navy during the American Civil War. A native of Butler County, Ohio, Hoel was a Mississippi River steamboat pilot when he entered the United States Navy 19 October 1861.

Family life
Hoel's first wife was Mary Riley, daughter of Daniel Riley, of Cincinnati. His second wife was Elizabeth Hunt, eldest daughter of Dr. Samuel Pancoast Hunt and his wife Elizabeth Thomas, of Morrow, Warren County, Ohio. Captain Hoel and Elizabeth Hoel had two children: Sarah Elizabeth Hoel and Rion Hoel.

Opening the Mississippi
On 6 February 1862, while serving as the First Master of USS Cincinnati (1861), Hoel was wounded during the Battle of Fort Henry. Less than two months later, on 4 April, he volunteered to pilot gunboat Carondelet in her famous run past the Rebel batteries at Island Number 10 to reach Maj. Gen. John Pope's Army at New Madrid. The gunboat's valiant dash through a hailstorm of Confederate fire enabled Union forces to cross the river and to take this key island with quantities of cannon, equipment and stores. It thus opened the Mississippi for operations by Union gunboats bringing the Federal armies in a long stride to within sight of Memphis.

Hoel's courageous and skillful service on this occasion won the praise of Flag-Officer Andrew H. Foote, the thanks of the Navy from Secretary Gideon Welles, and promotion to the rank of Acting Volunteer Lieutenant effective 29 April 1862.

On 10 May 1862 Hoel assumed command of Cincinnati when serious wounds incapacitated her captain, Commander Roger N. Stembel. The new commander of the Western Flotilla, Captain Charles Henry Davis, took this opportunity to express his admiration of Hoel. "I can not praise more than they deserve his high valor and ability. He sets the highest example to those below him, and if it were possible to give him a permanent position worthy of his merits, the Navy would be the gainer ..."

The Vicksburg campaign
On 29 October, Hoel then took command of USS Pittsburg on which he served with distinction in the campaign to take Vicksburg. One of Lieutenant Hoel's exploits during this campaign is of special interest since it foreshadowed the heroism of the World War II destroyer which bore his name, USS Hoel.

On 29 April 1863, as Acting Rear Admiral David D. Porter's flotilla was bombarding the Confederate Batteries at Grand Gulf, his flagship, USS Benton, became unmanageable and was caught under heavy fire in a position where she could neither steer nor reply to the enemy guns. On seeing Porter's predicament, Hoel slipped the Pittsburg in between Benton and the flaming Rebel batteries to protect her by taking the fire himself. In the next 10 minutes his heroism cost the Pittsburg 6 men killed and 8 wounded, but the sacrifice allowed Benton to extricate herself from the deadly trap.

The bombardment was so successful that the next day General Ulysses Grant safely moved his troops across the Mississippi to begin the operations which at long last isolated and captured Vicksburg.

Hoel was promoted to Acting Volunteer Lieutenant Commander on 10 November 1864.

In command of USS Vindicator
Detached from Pittsburg, he then took command of USS Vindicator 1 March 1865 on which he served until 7 July 1865. He was honorably discharged on 30 December 1865.

Postwar
Hoel returned to piloting, was active in the Grand Army of the Republic, and eventually served as master of the lighthouse tender Lily.

In 1867, Hoel traveled on the Quaker City ship to Europe and the Holy Land along with other tourists, including Mark Twain, which Twain wrote about in his book The Innocents Abroad.

Death
He married a second time but became suspicious of his wife Elizabeth's relationship with a local doctor. He confronted them with a pistol in May 1879 but was shot and killed in the struggle. After an inquest, the doctor was not charged with any crime.

title: William R. Hoel


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Talk:Jefferson City, Missouri

Jefferson City is Not in the Ozarks
It is in the Missouri River Valley. It adjoins little Dixie and the Missouri Rhineland - both geo-cultural divisons. Although some people do call this area the Ozark Foothills or Ozark Border. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.246.221.216 (talk • contribs) 03:46, 21 September 2005 (UTC}

Jefferson City tornado reversion
Accurate, partially unsourced information was reverted in favor of unsourced, incorrect information 71.51.196.241 (talk) 10:58, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

The request made at Third Opinion has been removed (i.e. declined). Like all other moderated content dispute resolution venues at Wikipedia, Third Opinion requires thorough talk page discussion before seeking assistance. If an editor will not discuss, consider the recommendations which are made here. — TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 16:15, 24 May 2019 (UTC) (Not watching this page)

title: Talk:Jefferson City, Missouri


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Talk:Rough Trade Records

Maximo park
they where never on rough trade to my knowledge we'rnt they always on warp? 82.28.44.187 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 22:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I just added some bands to the list —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.144.170.123 (talk • contribs)

Indie status
Is Rough Trade an indie label? It's listed on Sony/BMG's list of labels.

 * According to and, the German branch of Rough Trade was bought by Zomba Music Group in 1996, who were later bought by Sony/BMG.  But it seems that Rough Trade (UK) has remained independent (though I think they were owned by One Little Indian for a few years). --Vclaw 00:28, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Sanctuary is billed as the UK's bigest Independent record label —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.166.17.21 (talk • contribs)

OS bug
is it true that a bug in windows led to the bankrupcy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stentie (talk • contribs) 19:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Recent edits
FormerIP, could you please refocus from adding list of bands (we have a list of rough trade artists already) and if you have to edit focus on the significance, trials and tribulations, achievements, character and blood of the label. There is a lot to be said beside this band that band bla. I assume you say the doc on the arts channel last night, and I'm tempted to revert you summarising of scraps from google. Ceoil (talk) 01:29, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * WE.ALREADY.HAVE.List of Rough Trade artists. Ceoil (talk) 02:30, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is made out of scraps from Google. Please feel free to join in, but please don't mindlessly revert out of pure narcissism. It was on BBC4, BTW. --FormerIP (talk) 02:34, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Whatever it was on, but I was right in my guess and you are a tourist. I added a lead, you might have noticed. And NO wiki is NOT made of merely scaps from google-what would be the point of that? But whatever surface work turns you on and gives you satisfaction. My mention of lists means nothing eh. Ceoil (talk) 03:04, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Tourist? What, you mean there are people who live full-time inside record labels? Yeah, OK, I'll admit that Rough Trade is something that doesn't occupy my every waking moment. --FormerIP (talk) 03:36, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Or any living moment before Friday night, it would seem. But yeah, grand, but please stop desecrating its sacred and hallowed wiki article with poorly sourced lists of band already in the banished "list of ...." page. Or at least add context as you go, rather than just regurgitate shit from google. Ceoil (talk) 00:14, 31 October 2011 (UTC
 * As a present to you for not being any sort of dickhead, I've revert all my edits to the article. I've also reverted yours, since they were even worse than mine, but feel free to add them back if you like. --FormerIP (talk) 01:08, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I forget what was here before, and I haven't bothered to go thru the history. I've cleaned it up a little to make it a little less illiterate. Given the recent books on the topic we should be able to do better! Wwwhatsup (talk) 09:16, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree with Wwwhatsup. FormerIP you'll never get to me with petulance, only with the quality of your edits, and I'll admit here and now that as you are warming and getting more familar with the article, are doing 'not bad at all'. You have to appreciate that list cruft is a big fear. Ceoil (talk) 11:58, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Meaning of "rough trade"
See Wiktionary. Is this the origin of the record label's name? Why did they choose it? Equinox ◑ 02:43, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Presumably the origin. A well-known phrase that I certainly knew 50 years ago. We couldn't really say why they chose it, unless they said, which I doubt they did. - Jmabel | Talk 01:17, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Chronology
Having successfully promoted and sold records by punk, very early indie pop and early post-punk bands such as The Smiths and Desperate Bicycles, Travis began to manage acts and distribute bands such as Scritti Politti and began the label, Hmm, isn't this a little out of order? RT early releases like Augustus Pablo and Metal Urbain predated Scritti a little, and The Smiths by years! Wwwhatsup (talk) 01:01, 2 August 2016 (UTC)]

agreed. the smiths didn't rock up at rough trade with HiG until fully six years after the bicycles made their debut. if that's the best we can do for an opening paragraph about one of the most famous indie record labels of all time, then we should fucking top ourselves out of shame. thank fuck there's books like "how soon is now?" to get the real story from. imagine if you hadn't been around at the time, & all you had to go on was this article- you'd be forgiven for thinking that the smiths had been around since seeing the sex pistols (along with 18,000 other people) at the lesser free trade hall, when in fact they went with RT to snub factory.

198.147.19.1 (talk) 13:47, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Infobox problems
Not sure what's wrong with the talkbox; it would be helpful for someone to help fix it since I don't know what's up with it. Vibrioidxire (talk) 16:44, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Bankruptcy
This briefly mentions the 1990 bankruptcy in the lede, but doesn't cite for it or give any details. Even less at Rough Trade (shops). Surely this should be covered somewhere. - Jmabel | Talk 01:15, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Rough Trade Records