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Media in Ottawa–Gatineau

The following media outlets are located in Canada's National Capital Region, serving the cities of Ottawa, Ontario and Gatineau, Quebec. The two cities, which are adjacent and each receive virtually all television and radio stations operating in either city, are considered a single media market.

Most of the region's FM and TV stations, regardless of which community they are officially licensed to, transmit from Camp Fortune in the Gatineau Hills. Other TV stations transmit from a tower located in Manotick, in the rural south portion of Ottawa. Ryan Tower, the former transmitter tower at Camp Fortune, was taken down on November 4, 2012 and its services and some antenna elements were transferred to a new, nearby tower.

In addition to the market's local media services, Ottawa is also home to several national media operations, including CPAC (Canada's national legislature broadcaster), the digital political newspaper iPolitics, and the parliamentary bureau staff of all of Canada's major newsgathering organizations in television, radio and print. The city is also home to the legal headquarters of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation although operational headquarters for English- and French-language services are located in Toronto and Montreal, respectively.

Other radio stations
The following radio stations that can also be heard in the National Capital Region:
 * CHLK-FM 88.1 FM, a community radio station operating out of Perth, Ontario.
 * VEF315 88.7 FM, a community radio station operating out of Vankleek Hill, Ontario.
 * CKS608 91.9 FM, an ultra-low power campus and internet radio station from La Cité collégiale in Ottawa.
 * VF8013 92.3 FM, a very low-power French-language Christian radio station located in Ottawa. Air times of this radio station may vary.
 * CHRC-FM 92.5 FM, a radio station operating out of Clarence-Rockland, Ontario.
 * Radio-Hull 106.5 FM, a special events radio station based in Hull, Quebec.
 * CJRO-FM 107.7 FM, a very low-power community radio station in Carlsbad Springs, Ontario. CJRO-FM is also heard via low-power transmitters on 107.9 FM Vars/Sarsfield and 107.7 FM Embrun/Russell serving south-east rural Ottawa.
 * Some Montreal AM radio stations can also be heard in the area, such as CKGM 690, CKAC 730, and CJAD 800 as well as CKOI-FM in the far eastern parts of Ottawa.

AM

 * 540 AM CJSB, a Ottawa-based radio station that launched in 1982 until it left the air in 1994. The station relaunched on FM at 106.9 MHz as CKQB-FM.
 * 970 AM CKCH, ceased operations in 1994.
 * 1310 AM CIWW, a Rogers owned CityNews Radio station that shutdown on October 26, 2023.
 * 1350 AM CIRA-5, a Gatineau-based French language rebroadcaster of CIRA-FM Montreal ceased operations in early 2015.
 * 1350 AM CHFO, a Gatineau-based French language community radio station from 2018 until it left the air in 2019.
 * 1630 AM CHYW, a low-power tourist information radio station that operated from the Macdonald-Cartier International Airport from 2001 but its uncertain when the station left the air. In 2005, 2012 and 2017, applications were submitted to the CRTC to operate new radio stations on 1630 kHz to serve Ottawa and Gatineau. Those applications were either denied or withdrawn.

FM

 * Mix FM, was an unlicensed radio station in the Ottawa area that operated on various frequencies, mostly 91.9 FM in 2009, until it was shutdown in 2010.
 * 96.5 CFDT-FM (east side) and 99.9 CFDT-FM-1 (west side), very low-power tourist information radio stations that served motorists along Highway 417. It is uncertain when or if these stations were ever in operation.
 * 96.5 FM was also used in 2002 for a special event radio programming at 96.5 MHz in Gatineau with the call sign CIRC.
 * CIIO-FM, operated over various frequencies on 104.7 FM, 99.7 FM and 97.5, a tourist information station owned by Instant Information Services has been off the air since 2011. Instant Information Services also operated CIIF-FM 97.5, also a former french-language tourist information station in Ottawa.
 * 95.7 FM CKAV-FM-9, the local outlet of the Aboriginal Voices radio network; off the air since late 2014.
 * CKO (CKO-1) 106.9 FM was the Ottawa affiliate of the national CKO all-news network which ceased operations in 1989.

Television
Despite being one of Canada's largest metropolitan areas, many of the "local" stations serving Ottawa–Gatineau are, in fact, based in the Greater Toronto Area. Notably, the country's #2 and #3 private-sector broadcast networks, Global and Citytv, respectively, rely on repeaters of their Toronto-based stations, not originating stations, to serve Ottawa viewers. Despite this, however, Ottawa–Gatineau is unique among Canadian television markets, as the only market in all of Canada which has terrestrial access to virtually the entire range of Canadian broadcast networks and systems in both English and French — the larger Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver media markets each lack over-the-air access to some of the services in their market's minority language. The sole exception is aboriginal network APTN, which only has broadcast coverage in the North, but is carried on cable in Ottawa and indeed throughout the country.

Of the fourteen stations available over the air, only six actually originate from the area and provide local news. These six stations are currently owned by only three companies, with two stations apiece: the CBC (with stations for its English and French networks), RNC Media (which owns the local affiliates of the two private French-language networks, TVA and Noovo), and Bell Media (which owns stations associated with its CTV and CTV 2 networks).

Both of the CBC stations carry local evening newscasts in their respective languages. The two Bell Media-owned stations, while nominally maintaining separate news operations, do not currently compete against each other for local news; CTV airs local newscasts at midday and in the evening, while CTV 2 only broadcasts a morning newscast. As for the RNC Media stations, the TVA affiliate carries a local evening newscast, whereas the Noovo affiliate only airs short local news updates.

Defunct television stations

 * CFVO-TV channel 30—the region's first TVA affiliate; broadcast from 1974 to 1977
 * CKXT-DT-3 channel 20—local repeater of CKXT-DT Toronto; broadcast from 2008 to 2011

Daily

 * Ottawa Citizen
 * Ottawa Sun

Weekly

 * Le Droit

College and university

 * Algonquin Times
 * The Charlatan
 * Fulcrum
 * La Rotonde
 * The Otis
 * The Leveller

Community

 * Barrhaven Independent
 * Barrhaven Weekender
 * Canada Chinese News
 * Capital Chinese News
 * Centretown Buzz
 * Centretown News
 * Cumberland Communiqué
 * Ecolatino (Latin/Italian community)
 * The Epoch Times (Chinese Edition)
 * Glebe Report
 * Hogs Back News
 * Il Postino (Italian community)
 * Image
 * Kanata Kourier Standard (Now defunct)
 * Kitchissippi Times
 * La Nouvelle
 * Mainstreeter
 * Manor Park Chronicle
 * Manotick Messenger
 * The Manotick Review
 * The Mike on a Mic Show
 * Muslim Link
 * Nepean This Week
 * New Edinburgh News
 * Newswest
 * L'Ora di Ottawa (Italian community)
 * Orleans Star
 * The OSCAR
 * The Ottawa News
 * Ottawa Jewish Bulletin
 * Ottawa South Weekender
 * Ottawa This Week (various)
 * Ottawa Weekend Chinese News
 * Packet
 * Queenswood Newsliner
 * Riverviews
 * The Spectrum
 * Stittsville News
 * Stittsville Weekend Signal
 * Vistas
 * West Carleton Review
 * Weekly Journal

Other publications

 * Apartment613
 * Hill Times
 * iPolitics
 * Ottawa Business Journal
 * The Ottawan

Other media

 * CPAC
 * Parliament Hill offices of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation
 * Canadian Broadcasting Corporation corporate headquarters
 * Head office of Canadian Geographic
 * rabble.ca

title: Media in Ottawa–Gatineau


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CHOT-DT

CHOT-DT (channel 32), branded TVA Gatineau–Ottawa, is a television station in Gatineau, Quebec, Canada, serving the National Capital Region as an affiliate of TVA. The station is owned by RNC Media, as part of a twinstick with Noovo affiliate CFGS-DT (channel 34). The two stations share studios on Rue Jean Proulx and Rue Buteau in the former city of Hull; CHOT-DT's transmitter is located at Camp Fortune in Chelsea, Quebec.

CHOT-DT is the largest TVA station that is not owned-and-operated by the network. It is also the largest network affiliate in Canada that is not owned by its associated network.

History
From 1974 to 1977, the Ottawa–Hull area received TVA programming from CFVO-TV (channel 30), which was the first French-language commercial station in the National Capital Region. CFVO was cooperatively owned and constantly struggled financially. After its March 1977 closure, Radio-Québec bought the channel 30 physical plant directly from CFVO's creditors. The Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission (CRTC) then invited bids for a new French-language commercial station to be affiliated with TVA and operate on channel 40. Though as many as four bids were rumoured to be incoming for the TVA affiliate, the CRTC only received two, from Télé-Métropole (owner of TVA flagship station CFTM in Montreal) and Radio-Nord. The CRTC selected the application from Radio-Nord in December; CHOT, known as "Télé-Outaouais", began operations on October 27, 1978. Pierre Thibault, who had been a temporary manager for CFVO late in the station's life, served as its first general manager.

For a time until the late 1990s, CHOT was branded as "CHOT 40", referring to the station's channel number over the air. CHOT was one of the last television stations in Canada to use its over-the-air channel number in station branding. It is currently branded as "TVA Gatineau–Ottawa".

Cable distribution
The station is carried on channel 4 by Vidéotron in Gatineau and on channel 10 by Rogers Cable in Ottawa.

CHOT is also carried by most of EastLink's cable systems in Northeastern Ontario, one of the only regions in English Canada that carries an affiliate station instead of the national feed of CFTM-DT. It has been available on cable in this region since the early 1980s, long before TVA carriage was mandated nationwide. Predecessor companies Northern Cable and Persona picked up CHOT due to the area's large Franco-Ontarian population, and continued to carry CHOT rather than switching providers.

News operation
TVA Nouvelles broadcasts a 30-minute local newscast every weekday at 6 p.m. and, as of 2019, a 17-minute local newscast at 12:13 p.m. In the past, CHOT had local news on weekends and a 15-minute noon newscast on weekdays, but recent cuts made by RNC Media had these newscasts replaced with Montreal-based TVA network news programs.

Digital television and high definition
After the analog television shutdown and digital conversion, which took place on August 31, 2011, CHOT-TV flash cut to digital maintaining operations on UHF channel 40. As part of the UHF spectrum repack, CHOT-DT was required to move broadcast frequencies by July 2020. CHOT-DT moved to UHF channel 32 in July 2020; CHOT-DT was to display as virtual channel 40, but displays as 32.

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: CHOT-DT


text:
Talk:Fulcrum (newspaper)

Untitled
When in blazes did La Rotonde join CUP? Bearcat, ex-CUPpie, ex-Fulcrummie 07:46, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

title: Talk:Fulcrum (newspaper)


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Phunphin district

Phunphin (พุนพิน, ) is a district (amphoe) in Surat Thani province in the south of Thailand. Tha Kham is the principal town of the district. In 2014, the population was 73,067.

Geography
Neighboring districts are (from north clockwise): Tha Chang, Bandon, Ban Na Doem, Khian Sa, Khiri Rat Nikhom, and Vibhavadi. It has a short coastline on Bandon Bay to the northeast.

The main rivers of the district are the Tapi and its tributary Phum Duang, which flows into the Tapi at the town of Tha Kham.

History
The district's name was changed from Tha Kham to Phunphin in 1939.

Central administration
Phunphin district is divided into 16 sub-districts (tambons), which are further subdivided into 98 administrative villages (mubans).

Local administration
There is one town (thesaban mueang) in the district:
 * Tha Kham (Thai: เทศบาลเมืองท่าข้าม) consisting of parts of sub-district Tha Kham.

There are 16 sub-district administrative organizations (SAO) in the district:
 * Tha Kham (Thai: องค์การบริหารส่วนตำบลท่าข้าม) consisting of parts of sub-district Tha Kham.
 * Tha Sathon (Thai: องค์การบริหารส่วนตำบลท่าสะท้อน) consisting of sub-district Tha Sathon.
 * Lilet (Thai: องค์การบริหารส่วนตำบลลีเล็ด) consisting of sub-district Lilet.
 * Bang Maduea (Thai: องค์การบริหารส่วนตำบลบางมะเดื่อ) consisting of sub-district Bang Maduea.
 * Bang Duean (Thai: องค์การบริหารส่วนตำบลบางเดือน) consisting of sub-district Bang Duean.
 * Tha Rong Chang (Thai: องค์การบริหารส่วนตำบลท่าโรงช้าง) consisting of sub-district Tha Rong Chang.
 * Krut (Thai: องค์การบริหารส่วนตำบลกรูด) consisting of sub-district Krut.
 * Phunphin (Thai: องค์การบริหารส่วนตำบลพุนพิน) consisting of sub-district Phunphin.
 * Bang Ngon (Thai: องค์การบริหารส่วนตำบลบางงอน) consisting of sub-district Bang Ngon.
 * Si Wichai (Thai: องค์การบริหารส่วนตำบลศรีวิชัย) consisting of sub-district Si Wichai.
 * Nam Rop (Thai: องค์การบริหารส่วนตำบลน้ำรอบ) consisting of sub-district Nam Rop.
 * Maluan (Thai: องค์การบริหารส่วนตำบลมะลวน) consisting of sub-district Maluan.
 * Hua Toei (Thai: องค์การบริหารส่วนตำบลหัวเตย) consisting of sub-district Hua Toei.
 * Nong Sai (Thai: องค์การบริหารส่วนตำบลหนองไทร) consisting of sub-district Nong Sai.
 * Khao Hua Khwai (Thai: องค์การบริหารส่วนตำบลเขาหัวควาย) consisting of sub-district Khao Hua Khwai.
 * Tapan (Thai: องค์การบริหารส่วนตำบลตะปาน) consisting of sub-district Tapan.

Transport
Phunphin is the transportation hub of Surat Thani Province. It has one railway intersection, three railway stations, and four rail stops. Surat Thani Railway Station in this district is the main passenger railway station of Surat Thani Province. At the Ban Thung Pho junction (km631) the southern railway branches to what was originally intended to connect the railway to Takua Thung district, Phang Nga, just north of Phuket province. After the completion of 31 km of the railroad to Khiri Ratthanikhom in 1956, construction was halted for budgetary reasons.

Also in Phunphin are the Surat Thani Airport, the Inland Container Depot (ICD), and the Asian highway AH2 (Thai Hwy 41), the main road connecting to other provinces. Thai Hwy 401 connects Phunphin with the town of Surat Thani.

title: Phunphin district


text:
Dayi method

Dayi (, literally "great ease") is a system for entering Chinese characters on a standard QWERTY keyboard using a set of 46 character components. A character is built by combining up to four of the 46 characters (the other six are provided for typing Taiwanese addresses), using a system similar to that of Cangjie, but is decomposed in stroke order instead of in geometric shape in Cangjie.

On most keyboards in Taiwan, most keys show four symbols. On the keys, the Latin letters are in the upper left, Bopomofo symbols on the upper right, Cangjie symbols on the lower left, and Dayi symbols on the lower right.

Layout
Like Cangjie, every radical has some auxiliary shapes; but some of the auxiliary shapes of one radical originate from the mnemonic word of the radical. For example, key 6 is mapped to 車(car) in the keyboard, its mnemonic word is "6片車門"(six pieces of car door), and its auxiliary shapes include "片"(piece), "爿"(old character for "wall", its shape is the reflection of "片"), "甫"(its shape is like "車"), "門"(door), "鬥"(to battle or to fight, its shape is like "門").

Methodology
The following are rules of the Dayi input method:
 * 1) Input is with accordance to Chinese writing stroke order: "top first, then bottom", "left first, then right".
 * 2) For characters made of more than 4 symbols, enter the first three and the last symbol. For instance, "壽" (士乛工口手舟) is represented by just 4 symbols: 士乛工舟 (FBR.).
 * 3) For symmetrical characters, enter the center followed by either side. For instance, "巫" is represented by 工人人 (RAA).
 * 4) "臼" (W) is the wildcard key for the top part of words regardless of the contents: Examples: 兒 = 臼儿 (WQ) 與 = 臼一八 (WE8) 覺 = 臼冖目儿 (WM3Q)

Sample Learning Technique
One common frustration of learning any Chinese input method is not knowing the correct sequence of keys to enter. This problem can be alleviated with the help of an answer table. The following technique can be used to familiarize oneself with the Dayi keyboard layout. Speed and proficiency will develop with additional practice. This technique can be used with other input methods as well using similar lookup tables as answers.

 * Find a source of commonly used Chinese vocabulary to type. This can may be found on the Internet by usage frequency or HSK level. For Dayi, use the list of Chinese Traditional words. (Also see List of Commonly Used Characters in Modern Chinese)
 * Navigate to a lookup table to use as an answer key. For Dayi [with 4 keystrokes or less], dayin4.cin is publicly available on the Internet at various open-source repositories (see external links).
 * Using the annotated image of the Dayi keyboard layout, look for the radicals that make up the character. Enter them according to the methodology.
 * If the character is not successfully entered, search the answer table for the desired sequence of keystrokes. Try to understand why those keystrokes are used. Note that there may be more than one answer for conciseness. 醫 = 匚牛大酉 (R2V8), It can be condensed into 匚酉 (R8) since it does not conflict with other words in the dictionary.
 * Repeat with roughly 150 words in the word list.
 * Repeat with roughly the next 150 word in the word list. If possible, this time avoid turning to the annotated layout of the Dayi keyboard.
 * After successful practice, about 300 items have been entered. The locations of many common radicals (such as 日一言木土) would be quite familiar.

Comparison with other Chinese input methods
The keyboard layout for the Dayi input method contains keys for many of the Kangxi radicals in its entirety. This means that a single keystroke accounts for the left half or right half of many Chinese characters. For instance, "車" in "輸" (6AJN) is represented by "6". This allows for characters to be represented by 4 keys or less. In comparison, in Cangjie, "車" in "輸" (JJOMN) is represented by "JJ" for "十十", thus requiring up to 5 keys per Chinese character. A user of Cangjie would require experience and attention to decomposition rules to notice that the "田" segments of the Kangxi radical are omitted.

Unlike other input methods, Dayi's use of 46 character components instead of 26 happens to be its greatest impediment, because it makes typing digits and punctuation marks very inconvenient.

Some supported operating systems
Some operating systems that support the Dayi input method are:
 * Microsoft Windows 8/10
 * Microsoft Windows 95/XP
 * Linux (via ibus-tables or similar)
 * Apple Macintosh (via openvanilla or similar)

title: Dayi method


text:
Talk:Penis/Archive 2

Inclusion of a list of slang terms for the penis
I removed the slang terms for the penis because I don't think it adds anything to the article. We could turn the article into a massive list of slang, but what would it achieve? --Robert Merkel

I agree that this should be kept out of the article. I have Moved the slang terms to a subpage. Or perhaps there should be a Sexual slang page to encompass this whole partially taboo subject. -- The Anome

Do we really need to have slang for 'penis' in Wikipedia at all?

 * Yes

I mean, how often have you been looking through Encarta or Britannica and found a page where THEIR editors tried to remember all the names for the male copulatory organ??!!! - Mark Ryan

 * Irrelevant. This is an *INTERNET* Encyclopedia, and the Internet is about sex.  In fact this article would be a reasonable central organizing metaphor for the entire project, as we are virtually sure that every contributor will eventually contribute to this file.

Y'know, while I'm probably among the more squeamish readers of the pedia, it's kinda nice to have a list /somewhere/, and an encyclopedia is probably the best place for somebody who just wants to know without having to wade through a lot of other crudeness. A person learning english, for example, is probably wise to be informed enough not to be left out in the cold. I was around 20 before I realized the other meaning of "Johnson"...

Are you seriouly planning to add penis nicknames in every languges ? The page will grow to several Gigabytes.

By the way mine is nicknamed Charles-Edouard :)

Ericd 03:57 Jan 24, 2003 (UTC)

It is a bit ridiculous. Do we need ANY slang terms for cock errr penis? Zocky 04:10 Jan 24, 2003 (UTC)

No we don't. I say it should be removed.

Hm. Having the English slang terms was dubious but the slang terms in other languages is not at all needed. Add those to the penis article in the correct languages. This is the English Wikipedia. --mav 07:23 Jan 24, 2003 (UTC)

mav, why don't we just get rid of all the slang terms. It's so silly

 * Agreed. we don't need them. -- Tarquin 11:22 Jan 24, 2003 (UTC)

I took the liberty of removing the slang terms. I think there's just too much controversy over it. Perhaps a separate page could be created, as mentioned above by The Anome.

Created the Sexual slang page. I think it is nicer this way. And I also think that perhaps the piercings section should go somewhere else...maybe on Genital piercing, which currently just redirects to Body piercing.

Wikipedia isn't a usage guide, it's an encyclopedia; please see talk:vagina. I think we were basically just trolled. --LMS

Erect penis photograph?
True or false: the picture that narrows the Erection section of this article is appropriate for Wikipedia. 66.245.86.121 18:13, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * ALthough it's close to the edge of what is acceptable, I think there's general agreement that clinical photos are acceptable. →Raul654 18:27, Jul 1, 2004 (UTC)

 * Shouldn't it either be in a different section, or show a more erect penis? Marnanel 18:31, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Please see: Profanity and Choosing appropriate illustrations. Hyacinth 18:57, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

If we are going to show an erect penis, we should show one that is fully erect, rather than semi-erect. This also suggests that we should discuss the angle of erection in this article, and its variability. -- Karada 07:29, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * There was a paragraph about this in the normal variations section. I've moved that to the erection section. Jamesday 03:28, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

And it should show an entire penis, not one that has had some of it amputated. Tannin 13:38, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Without invoking the circumcision wars, it probably makes sense to have an uncirumcised penis depicted here, as it represents wildtype. Oh, and for anyone who does not like photographs of erect penes, may I suggest producing a good anatomically correct drawing? -- Karada 23:37, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Uh, that's exactly what is at the top of the page. →Raul654 23:42, Jul 2, 2004 (UTC)
 * No, that's a flaccid penis. There are lots of noteworthy changes between the erect and flaccid state: many anatomical features only come into play during erection. The fundamental biological function of the penis (apart from providing an extension of the urethra) is to be erect in order to facilitate sexual intercourse. -- Karada 07:24, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Hopefully there will eventually be a good selection of videos and images illustrating the process and accompanying changes. Jamesday 03:28, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * If soeone wonders whether those would be clinical in nature, consider that I once spent several days at a medical trade show in a booth adjacent to one with continually looping video of a penis pump in use on a human penis. Jamesday 14:27, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * There should be two photos, one of a natural penis and one of a circumcised one. And the photos don't need to be nearly as large as the one that was just removed.Matt gies 01:07, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Larger would be good, particularly including details of structure. We don't yet have a good image for glans, frenulum, foreskin, pearly penile papules and an assortment of other structural details. Jamesday 03:28, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I have taken some pictures, should it be included in the article? I can add labels for the specific parts--Clawed 12:34, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * I'd give it a go. Don't be shy! --Minority Report 12:43, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Some info on the picture (right) - Uncircumsized, normal leghth (not a small specimin like most medical photos), colour photo with a black background, fully erect in second photo. But the first photo is more zoomed in than the second.--Clawed 13:04, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Looks good. I'd put it in if I were you. (Sorry this subject is almost impossible for an Englishman to write about without lapsing into double entendre. --Minority Report 13:49, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * I've been bold and replaced the black and white image. You might want to tweak the caption. Theresa Knott (Tart, knees hot) 16:57, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Oh goodie, more pics. Now can we all just calm down and consider why we need four pics in this article? - Robert the Bruce 02:30, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * I'm perfectly calm, as is everyone else with the possible exception of you Robert. Note that I replaced the b/w image with a colour one. What have you got against the picture above? Theresa Knott (Tart, knees hot) 11:14, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * No you didn't Theresa. You replaced a black and white pic of an erect penis with two colour pictures. The pic of the flacid penis should either replace the appropriate black and white one lower down in the article or be removed. Quite simple really. - Robert the Bruce 03:02, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * The flacid and erect photos are on the same image so I can't do that. If you really object to the tuly enormous number of penises on this page I suppose you could remove the b/w flacid one, I won't add it back in (although someone else might I suppose) Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 22:47, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The obvious question which no-one is asking; Clawed, is that your penis? - Ashley Pomeroy 20:54, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * yes--Clawed 22:46, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * Then I applaud you; you show an admirable level of commitment to the Wikipedia project. May your penis symbolise the penii of all mankind forevermore. On a more serious level, would it be possible to 'smart blur' the picture with Photoshop? I believe it works well enough as an iconic image at the moment - it is Penis rather than a penis - because the colours are so red as to make it more of an illustration than a photograph, but I believe you could forestall possible controversy by making it more abstract. -Ashley Pomeroy 22:32, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * You want him to deliberately degrade the image? Why would we want a blurred image? Theresa Knott (The snott rake) 22:41, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Photoshop's 'smart blur' is a clever little thing which is used a lot by Playboy magazine etc; it leaves edges sharp and only blurs large sections of colour. The end result is a photograph that looks like an airbrushed illustration; the detail is still there, and the image isn't 'blurry' as such, it merely looks more abstract. Indeed Playboy magazine seem to use it for exactly this reason; people find it more acceptable to ogle obviously-artificial images of naked women rather than actual naked women. And I would never ask anyone to degrade their penis. -Ashley Pomeroy 10:47, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Image
Is it too much to ask to attempt to keep this encyclopedia G-rated and safe for all the family? I support a version which links to the penis images, but does not display them in the article page. Is this really too much to ask? This sort of thing can get this whole site blocked from libraries. --Cantus 02:54, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * I do think it is too much to ask. Far, far too much.  On the Talk:Clitoris someone came up with the excellent idea of a children's Wikipedia.  It occurs to me that tt ought to be possible to fix the Wiki code to suppress articles or sections, or even images, that are marked up in a certain way.  This would enable the reader to set his or her own preferences by category. --Minority Report 23:47, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * It was been decided that clinical images are acceptable, as they would in any other encyclopedia. Beyond that, Wikipedia is not censored. →Raul654 03:09, Jul 10, 2004 (UTC)

 * This is not a medical textbook, it is an encyclopedia. Graphic images of human genitals are not shown in encyclopedias. Period. --Cantus 03:28, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Because... ? People who read encyclopedias aren't entitled to the same information as medical students? - Hephaestos|§ 04:08, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC) Period.

 * Err....Someone here would find medical textbooks very disappointing indeed... - Nunh-huh 04:13, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Not having read any medical textbooks, I'm moved to say then that we should replace this graphic with whatever graphic is in the medical textbooks, so as to satisfy Cantus' sensibilities. Or are medical students expected to "play it by ear"? - Hephaestos|§ 04:17, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Well, it depends on the text a bit. Accepting the "Penis Challenge", I've looked at two Internal Medicine texts: only one has a picture of a penis, and that's "the penis before and after testosterone treatment of an intersexual patient". I suspect one would do better in a text of Endocrinology, Anatomy, or Urology. I guess you're supposed to know what a "normal penis" is by medical school, as illustrations tend to be pathological. - Nunh-huh 04:32, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * I'm definitely puzzled by the news that encyclopedias do not show "graphic images of human genitals." I'm pretty sure my old Britannica did; those were the most thumbed pages when I was a child!  Where does all this new prudery come from?

 * If you want a filtered internet, please use one of the large number of filtering programs which are available. However, I would support a page with most images on it, leaving only a few more than the modest selection which are here at present in the main article. It would be somewhat messy to have forty of fifty images in this article, even though there are plenty of variations for them to illustrate. Jamesday 03:28, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Oh for goodness sake why on earth is anyone horrfied by a part of the human anantomy? This is so childish. A penis may be in an erect state without sexual arousal (such as a natural aid to continence in sleep). But honestly why are people so hung up about any sexuial connotations. It is this very kind of opression that creates imbalance and unhealthy interest in the "forbidden". A penis is part of nature get over it! Dainamo

Metric conversion
From last version by 80.191.66.199:
 * The average human penis is 5 inches (15 up to 17 cm) in length when fully engorged with blood during arousal

Are we implying that metric people on average have longer penisses? :p -- Ferkelparade 23:38, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * It is but one of the many advantages of the SI system. -- Karada 12:23, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Five inches is normal?? I thought about six inches was the minimum you could have without getting embarrassed.  Just goes to show how much pressure society puts on men...  Chameleon 10:58, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Comparative anatomy
My sentence relating male and female anatomy was removed as "unwieldy". Unless the information is considered wrong or irrelevant, I suggest that its unwieldiness be removed by editing, rather than by deleting. I have restored it, in its own section. AxelBoldt 15:15, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * The new section works considerably better than where it had been, though we may want to include something on why the two anatomies are homologous. Do we have an equivalent section on vulva? - jredmond 16:28, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Yup, there's a section in the vulva article listing the homologous male structures. As to why the structures are homologous: males and females use almost the same genome, and it's much easier and more efficient to make slight modifications to a single body plan than to come up with two different plans altogether. Rather than have one section of the genome make an ovary and another section make a testicle, you use just one section to form the common precursor of both and then change things slightly towards the end, under the action of hormones. If something's easier and more efficient, evolution is more likely to find it. However it doesn't always find it: even though the vas deferens and the fallopian tube perform a very similar function, they are not homologous but constructed separately from scratch. AxelBoldt 17:51, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Axel, this is a very clear explanation. It should be (after the removal of the intentional viewpoint) merged into the article... -- Karada 22:25, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

 * Maybe better to put into homologous? Since it isn't really specific to the penis. AxelBoldt 00:27, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Modification/mutilation
I've changed the "modification or mutilation" items to just "modification", and in some cases altered the text altogether. As we've discussed (and discussed and discussed) at the circumcision and genital modification and mutilation article, the word "mutilation" tends to carry negative connotations, while "modification" is more neutral. Since the distinction between "genital modification" and "genital mutilation" is often blurry, I'm going with the more neutral term. (Also, putting "modification or mutilation" every single time is rather awkward.)

I'm also changing "bifurcated" to "split" and rephrased some sentences for clarity's sake.

- jredmond 03:49, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * Keeping the voluntary cut, but removing the involuntary one is POV. Involuntary cutting is more common.  Modification has a connotation of voluntary involvement, and usually connotations of improvement (a modified engine).  Mutilation may have a social connotation just the opposite, but enough men such as myself feel violated as to merit both points of view. DanP 19:25, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure where the word "modification" automatically connotes "good", but no such connotation is as strong as the negative ones associated with the word "mutilation". Also, using "modified or mutilated" when discussing practices like genital piercing or tattoing is disingenuous; it tends to imply that some penises are pierced or tattooed involuntarily. (This creates a very disturbing image in my head of roving Prince Albert gangs, tackling unsuspecting men in dark alleys and giving them body art.)

In any case, saying "modification or mutilation" for every single practice makes this section painfully awkward to read. IMHO, it'd be better to use that particular phrase only once (with the wikilink) and find different ways to express that the penis is somehow different as a result of whatever practice. This will reduce the N/POV arguments about what is and what isn't mutilation, and improve the aesthetic value of the section. - jredmond 20:17, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The word "altered" is shorter than "modified", and does not indicate improvement or mutilation. Would the term "altered genitals" be better for you? I think "modified" is more offensive to me than "mutilation", as "modified" implies just a small (ie. trivial) loss, but both are cultural distinctions, not dictionary ones. I think "modification or mutilation" is value neutral, even more so than "alteration", but sound neutral. DanP 20:35, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 * "Altered" works; in fact, that's what I suggested as a neutral compromise over on the talk pages for circumcision. :)  However, we need to avoid overusing it like we had "modified or mutilated".  I'm re-phrasing some of these sentences so they don't rely on "alter" or "altered" or "alteration" for everything.

 * That opening paragraph seemed incredibly awkward, and I could not come up with a suitable replacement to introduce the section. I've replaced it with a link to the main genital modification and mutilation article, and indicated that circumcision is especially controversial when performed on infants and young boys.

 * I had used "decorated" to characterize the addition of body art. It seemed to me like an appropriate word choice, given the voluntary nature of and typical motives behind such enhancements, and using it gives us a chance to skip the "alter" echo for at least that one paragraph.  I'm putting it back.

 * Finally, I'm doing some formatting and minor clean-up so that this section reads more easily and fits more closely with the rest of the article. - jredmond 21:32, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

This sentence in the "Fears and reassurance" section is ugly...

 * "Possibly due to shame incolcated in regard to genitalia, some people suffer from misunderstandings and resultant fear."

Ouch. I think I know what that sentence's author is trying to convey - some people have issues with their own genitalia - but I can't think of a prettier way to phrase it. Someone please help!!! - jredmond 21:43, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Poll
Robert Brookes and his sockpuppets vandalize this article. I would like to take a poll about the contested sections:

Robert Brookes removes information about hypospadias and the raphe. This is the diff. I believe that the the version of Robert Brookes is incomplete. I would like to take a poll. For preventing ballot-stuffing, I suggest that only people registered before 2004-10-01T00:00:00 GMT/UTC have the right to vote in this poll. I propose that the poll last until the end of the week. I shall define the end of the week as 2004-10-10T00:00:00 GMT/UTC.

Now that we established the rules, let us define the questions:

¿Should we include the information that circumcision sometimes cause iatrogenic hypospadias and that the raphe runs from the præpuce to the perineum?

Yes:

I recently registered but am voting anyway, since I made other contributions. How about adding a little about penis wrinkles? Walabio, you're writing English, not Spanish, so there's no inverted punctuation. lysdexia 05:35, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * 1) 	Ŭalabio 08:17, 2004 Oct 4 (UTC)

No:

Comments:

The article is more informative if we include the complete information. Ŭalabio 08:17, 2004 Oct 4 (UTC)

Ŭalabio 08:17, 2004 Oct 4 (UTC)

 * I have not yet figured out why in the world Robert would oppose these parts of the article.  Even the proponents of circumcision are aware that the outcome varies, and now the Friends of Robert even mess with the frenulum article.  This is a bit like opponents of circumcision deleting every extremely rare foreskin problem, which we are certainly not doing.  Complications of hypospadias are common enough that I think it should be there.  Perhaps we should add other complications of circumcision (skin bridges, keloids, suture tunnels, etc.).   If paraphimosis and oedema are residing right in this article, why can't we include facts about circumcision problems?  Or would Friends of Robert rather we just delete every problem on both sides from this article?  DanP 23:19, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Poll Closed
Since the poll was coming out one sided, I let it run a few more days. 100% of respondents agree to include the information about the raphe and hypospadias. I declare the poll closed and the information should be included.

Ŭalabio 01:34, 2004 Oct 16 (UTC)

LOL ... what was the number of participants? The results are binding on no one. - Robert the Bruce 10:02, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Erectile Bone
What the heck is an erectile bone? Can anyone provide information that it exists? DanP 17:19, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I think the name for this is penile bone. Many animals have one. Humans don't. -- Karada 09:22, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * So says the article. I've never heard of such a thing in any anatomical study.  I think this should be substatiated by at least some mention of anyone actually seeing such a thing in any species.  Is it the pubic bone?  Or what is it?  It could be urban legend.
 * Many mammals have them. The ones I can remember offhand are the walrus and the sauropod dinosaurs.DanP 21:49, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * See Beresford WA, Burkart S. The penile bone and anterior process of the rat in scanning electron microscopy. J Anat. 1977 Dec;124(3):589-97. -- Karada 13:57, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Also see pictures at . -- Karada 14:01, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Actually, humans occasionally are born with the penile bone. It is generally surgically removed. 金 (Kim) 02:42, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC) I have a very good memory for such trivia. I'll try to find the reference, but the memory goes back to the previous millenium. 金 (Kim) 02:52, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC) I found one piece of collaboratory information almost immediately. Clellan S. Ford and Frank A Beach, Patterns of Sexual Behavior, p. 30 says "Both gorillas and chimpanzees possess a penile bone. In the latter species the os penis is located in the lower part of the organ and measures approximately three-quarters of an inch in length." Here is an on-line source. It's rare, but they are found in humans too: When medical texts say that humans don't have them I think they are just reassuring those males who don't have them that they are normal. ;-) They are also called "pizzle bones" by some people.  See Lame Deer: Seeker of Visions, by John Fire Lame Deer.
 * Do you have a medical source for this? If so please post it. - Robert the Bruce 02:48, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Here is the medical info: http://www.vh.org/adult/provider/anatomy/AnatomicVariants/OrganSystem/Text/Penis.html 金 (Kim) 03:25, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Iatrogenic hypospadias
DanP inserted the claim that hypospadias can be iatrogenic (e.g. caused by medical treatment). Has anyone heard of this? JFW | T@lk  20:07, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * I've not heard of this. What mechanism is DanP suggesting for this? Pre-natal effects of hormone therapy? Botched surgery? -- The Anome 08:16, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

 * "Iatrogenic" means "caused by doctors", so "iatrogenic hypospadias" is a fistula caused by medical error. Not exactly plain English!Michael Glass 03:33, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

template:sex
The sex warning seems reasonable to me, but aparently many other people don't like it. Why? – Quadell (talk) (help)  00:48, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)

 * If it seems reasonable why not go ahead and reason it. There is a debate/vote going on in Talk:Clitoris which this seems to be an attempt to preempt.--Jirate 00:56, 2004 Oct 20 (UTC)
 * Why? See Template talk:Sex. —No-One Jones (m) 01:03, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Please discuss here. The clitoris poll is completely unrelated to this message. By the way, Quadell, can you assist me in reverting this page? Thanks. --Cantus 00:58, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
 * Are you really calling for an edit war? If you can make a good argument, do so, but do not start trouble. -- Netoholic @ 01:15, 2004 Oct 20 (UTC)

What is everyone's thoughts on the content warnings in Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse? Why there and not here? Double standards anyone? --Cantus 01:29, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
 * (response already posted on User_talk:Sverdrup) Inappropriate and ugly ( should only be used once per article—for the article title at the top. Oh, wait, I checked the source now, and it turns out it is using == blah  ==, which is just as bad). If someone doesn't want to see images of what an article discusses, he/she should set his/her browser to not display images. — David Remahl 01:35, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Your comment perfectly illustrates the argument made on Template talk:Sex. Where should the line be drawn? Elbows? Clitoris? Sexual abuse? The only way to be NPOV is to not draw the line. — David Remahl 01:44, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Your comment perfectly illustrates the argument made on Template talk:Sex. Where should the line be drawn? Elbows? Clitoris? Sexual abuse? The only way to be NPOV is to not draw the line. — David Remahl 01:44, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I endorse the. Many Wikipedians with children may agree. Chmod007, the line should be drawn as far as daytime TV - swimwear OK, genitals no. JFW | T@lk  16:28, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * "Daytime TV" in which country? POV! Can you explain to me why a parent would want to prevent his/her child from seeing images of genitals? When I was five, my parents and I read Where do children come from?, fully illustrated. What is it about scientific documentation of human sexuality that you believe could corrupt children so easily? — David Remahl 16:33, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

David, which country has daytime TV on public/mainstream channels that feature male frontal nudity? Your parents had the POV to be very liberal, and I declare a POV in being somewhat more conservative. The warning only pertains to the images as far as I am concerned. Cantus is quite right in pushing this template, and your POV is not affected if the template stays. Nobody is removing the pictures. JFW | T@lk  16:43, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * I modified message (which is not ) and it is now fully acceptable to me, since it is factual and to the point. I oppose any template that in a blue box at the top of the article gives undue prominence to the notion that sexuality is offensive. And I oppose the general Template:Sex message, especially on articles such as Penis and Clitoris, since the images on these pages are not explicitly sexual. There is no need to get harmless Wikipedia blocked by censoring software, just because they choke on the  template. If they choke, it should be based on actual article content. — David Remahl 16:56, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * As for daytime TV, I don't think Swedish public television has any clear guidelines on nudity, nor is it controlled in the laws that control the broadcasts (as some things are, violent pornography is completely banned, for example, and graphic violence is heavily restricted during daytime). The images in this article could certainly just as well be part of a daytime educational program, and a couple of years ago a youth show created some public opinion waves depicting masturbation at 7 PM. — David Remahl 17:11, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It's important to remember that no one will be offended by the image. What they will be offended by is the breach of what they think of as a universal rule. If you look through the comments by the antis, non of them say's that the image offends them, it is always somebody else. The presence of the warning is proof, in the mind of some, of the existance of this rule. It is not the job of an encyclopedia to caharcterize information in this way. It is also not practical as it requires the layout of the page to be further adjusted so the image cannot appear on the same screen as the warning. It fosters a belief in forbiden knowledge. Can you produce some evidence of what % of the population will be offended and what % feel it should be their for some other reason, and what those other reasons may be. The motivation of some users is unclear. I want a warning that warns about the warning, as I find the warning offensive, and I feel a significant propotion of the population will agree.--Jirate 19:13, 2004 Oct 21 (UTC)

 * Well, the images are actually offensive to me. There you go! An anti speaks his mind!
 * Okay, David has given a nice cool exception to the practical rule adhered to in virtually the whole world. Will we base policy on the Swedish precedent or the UK, USA, Dutch, French etc...
 * JIrate, your is also really quite offensive to superstitious little me. I suppose I should insert a warning about your warning. JFW |  T@lk  19:57, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Hmm, is it time to add Wikipedia is not a television channel to the list of What Wikipedia is not? We're an encyclopaedia. We shouldn't base policy on Swedish television policies, nor on UK television policies. I simply answered your question of which country's television would show nudity during the daytime. — David Remahl 02:23, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

title: Talk:Penis/Archive 2


text:
Talk:The Master Musicians of Joujouka

Archive
Re: the archive: it is easy to point to any item you want to talk about by just going to the history file, bringing up the version you have an issue with and making a link out of it to talk about.

Disambiguation and Editing
The admin did the initial disambiguation beginnings according to things I saw him say on his talk page prior to my even coming into this page.

I haven't previously edited the article before doing the talk page discussion but have been an editor who could have edited in here for a long time. I had pretty much left wikipedia though before finding these MMOJ articles. Since the disambiguation, I have worked on trying to focus on giving acknowledgment to both bands with neutral tone and no non-verifiable or poorly sourced things being in any article I work on. Looking at the comment down the page, it may be that I will have to stop working on this because I can't work on it and start dealing with talk page arguing too.

I would like to work with anyone who has a complaint about any work I do but not to the point of having to deal with long arguing because my health is not the best.

There are now three group pages to differentiate between the groups for people visiting an article in any of the three articles: Master Musicians of Jajouka, Master Musicians of Joujouka, Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar. The third one will likely be redirected to the Master Musicians of Jajouka page because it's redundant given the group uses both names, such as on soundtracks.

On a side note, I think it looks like footnotes are back in vogue, so I guess the References sections I made from past guidance I'd received a long time ago from an admin not to use jump link Notes is not the current view, and so I'd better go back to jump links for the References section. I'll double check that soon with admins who have been focused on that subject in past citation style message board discussions in wikipedia. Emerman 05:09, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

question
Can someone confirm via published articles anywhere that Ahmed Attar "leads" the Master Musicians of Joujouka?
 * Never mind, I found the answer is yes, from old post in talk page history. Did not remember that had been said before. So that's great, I'm glad to know. Emerman 14:02, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

archive, discussion bias
I think this discussion should be unarchieved and that Emermans editing history and edits need to be examined. I will not be able too contribute to this much until the weekend. However if the change history of User BKlissenbee and User Emerman are examined on then you might see a similar agenda. I shall point to examples later. Emerman has been an antagonist in this debate and has then, after unprotecting edited several pages at his whim. His footnotes selective and incomplete to say the least and designed towards a certain spin. There is loads of material out there.

Creating a page for Frank Rynne when he is obviously hostile is poor show. Admin was this what you had in mind when you unprotected. Re The Brian Jones presents the Pipes of Pan at Joujouka page that I will post on that discussion at the weekend and the Joujouka page.But hold on there, this needs some more examination and time!!!

User:Opiumjones 23 02:14, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I hope you could you let us know if Ahmed Attar leads the group that you produce? And as for my footnotes, the only thing I didn't include that you had put in was a Clandermond book that doesn't appear to be listed in any library except at your personal store (had been searching for the publisher info left out of the site). I have added a ton of more references to the articles and the ones you previously were involved in often that I was at had no references at all previously. I'm not editing at a whim, and I thought my article on you was very NPOV. Do you have a problem with something in the article about you? Please let me know if anything in the article on you is incorrect. I'm still trying to add more info as I learn it but I have been trying to research a ton and it's a lot to do.

 * Unprotecting had nothing to do with my eventually going into edit. I could have edited any time I wanted to before then because I am not a new user; I just had not seen the articles previously. I'm sure I've been here longer than you. Protecting the page only affected people without a registered account in the way that it was previously protected. Emerman 22:24, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

List of Items User: Opiumjones23 Believes Should Be in Article
After checking in email I need to make sure that we address if there is anything more User:Opiumjones23 believes should be in this article. If so, it probably needs to be discussed here, not in email but I didn't realize that yesterday when I was first becoming aware of how public talk pages are. Unless he decides he is fine with email instead of dealing with here (he is busy just now and will get back to it on the weekend). I'll assume he likes this talk page for it unless I hear otherwise from him. Sorry I didn't understand the depth of this issue previously. I'm not sure I'm going to be the one who has the time to do all the reading involved in this but I can at least start this discussion back up because it needs to be done. There's a lot I didn't understand when I first came to the discussion board, I think and some ideas I had about Hamri's life were from the 1992 Davis book, but I found a timing discrepancy in that book today, I think, so I'm not sure about that book's credibility till I recheck. Both sides would need to list sources since this seems to still be in dispute from what I can see in email. I'm not sure I have time to deal with this much longer myself but I hope all is sorted out fine. Emerman 23:39, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

List of Items Related to the Article:
 * If any part of the story is disputed, please remind us of reasons and third party sources other than rumor or supposition but something reflecting the official current records. Please list any other items that you believe should go into the article such as those you think might be disputed because I don't remember just now all the differences between both groups. And sources we should consult.

 * Question I have - is the Clandermond book one that is sold outside the Hamri/mmjoujouka official website store? Who is the publisher - that wasn't in the previous citation. I can put it back in if it is a book sold outside a band site. I had trouble finding the publisher but will call my library today to do a worldcat search. Emerman 23:39, 18 January 2007 (UTC) Never mind, I had a librarian do a search of Books in Print and Worldcat today; it's not there. I think it is evidently a limited release book just at the Hamri/MMJoujouka online store. I'm sure it's interesting to read and I'll try to read it some time but it seems extremely limited in availablity unless buying from a band store website. Emerman 02:18, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

publisher Laurence Arnott Gallery Tangier, 2004 i guess their website has a phone no? also available on joujouka.net

 * Thanks, and I see that those two authors are listed elsewhere as having written an art dictionary. I will put the book back in related places like the Hamri article. I had to recheck the gallery spelling; it's "Lawrence" and is mentioned on some artist sites. Emerman 16:21, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Master Musicians of Joujouka credits 1971
User Svest Admin on this page, I think, has been emailed scans of the sleave notes including artist credits for   Master Musicians of Joujouka Brian Jones presents the Pipes of Pan at Joujouka, Rolling Stones Records 1971.

The Lp was recorded in 1967 and released in 1971.That puts Emermans assertion that this group cant include this disc in their discography in a different light.

Furthermore and much more importantly it proves that the name was being used by a Hamri group nearly 30 years before Emermans credited date of "forming" in the MMOJoujouka article.

In light of just this several of Emermans "facts" will have to be changed across all the pages he has been editing. User:Opiumjones 23 20:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I have already answered the above comments at several other pages you also posted the above at so I won't repeat the answer again here. Emerman 22:24, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Awaiting admin
Awaiting admin on above

User:Opiumjones 23 02:10, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Most discussion has been removed to the Brian Jones Presents The Pipes Of Pan At Jajouka talk page on some of this. I have also responded to an email request from a concerned individual by editing myself (only, not other people) for sensitivity.

most of the players listed with this band and "credited" on the brian jones record, steel wheels record, laswell record, were either not born yet for the brian jones, nor record nor have they ever played with sub rosa group. any that have played with subrosa did not record on the records listed. several members listed are now dead, never played with the sub rosa group, and those that are alive, are currently playing with the master musicians of jajouka featuring bachir attar. the information posted is false and unsubstantiated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Therealmmoj (talk • contribs) 17:44, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Clarify the issues in dispute please
The page Brian Jones Presents The Pipes Of Pan At Jajouka has a notice on it that 'The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed.'

I'm surprised there isn't a notice, on this and other related pages, that the neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed. I would recommend it.

This is a very interesting discussion, but the exact issues in dispute are unclear. Could Emerman please give a concise summary of his claims. This issue is very sensitive because so many of the parties are still living, and at first glance I wonder if this is the correct forum to resolve them in. It doesn't appear that there is any dispute concerning these issues any where else in the public domain.

The argument here also seems very one-sided, and interested parties should be given notice of the dispute here, and have an opportunity to respond.

My particular interest in this is over the effect of Westernising native tradition, and the international law implications. I'm going to post notice of this case to some specialists in human rights and native law, such as early Irish and native American, and see if there is any precedent on these issues. I'll get back to you in a while.

I would advise caution in proceeding too hastily with this matter. I'd also suggest narrowing discussion to one forum, since it is being cross-posted over numerous pages such as Master Musicians of Jajouka and Joujouka Tuathal 00:28, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

 * I answered at the Brian Jones Presents The Pipes Of Pan At Jajouka talk page. Emerman 01:33, 23 January 2007 (UTC) Emerman 15:14, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Sources re "tribal leader" in fifties plus further inaccuracies
The below sentence from article is untrue.

"The master musicians of that early group were led by tribal chief Hadj Abdesalam Attar."

The above is factually incorrect in both of its main assertions 1/ re tribal leader and 2/ re being "leader" of the musicians. This one even if accompanied by a modern source is still 100% incorrect. Sherkin was lead rhiata player at this time (1950s}. As to "tribal" leader ????. The mountain range that Joujouka is in is called Ahl Srif after the tribe who live/lived there. I have never heard of the leader of the Ahl Srif tribe being from Joujouka. This is one of many inaccuracies in the current article. The group have been performing rather longer than the dated 1995. Gysin recorded them in 1950s. Timothy Leary? "Four Thousand Year Old Rock N Roll band" Jail Notes (London, 1970) places their origins in pre-history.  The first record was a french release in the sixties, the second Brian Jones presents the Pipes of Pan at Joujouka 1971, the third Master Musicians of Jajouka recorded 1972 released 1974. This was Mastered by Miles and Hamri in London possibly in 1973. Some musicians who have recorded and/or play  with this group have also recorded on all Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar output since the late 1980s. This may further complicate things for editiors with agendas like Emerman. In certain cases musicians actually from Joujouka/Jajouka who became involved in Bachir Attar's version have been allowed back into the Master Musicians of Joujouka i.e. the traditional Sufi group/brotherhood. I personally knew all the musicians still alive at the time of my first visit in 1994. Between the musicians there is no problem. They just didn't elect Bachir leader, a press release did. Those who have continued playing their sacred trance music in an authentic way lead themselves and their community in Joujouka. That is the way it is there in the vilage. I am sure that some editors will place the facts in order. The truth will keep the music alive!!!!!

User:Opiumjones 23 02:59, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Article protected
I've just protected this article and a few other related articles as per the mediation process going on at User:FayssalF/JK. Thanks for your understanding. -- FayssalF  - Wiki me up®  15:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

any and all musicians still alive that played on the Brian Jones record, the Ornette Coleman record, the Joel Rubiner Record, Steel Wheels, and the Laswell record, are and were (until their death) members of the Master Musicians of Jajouka featuring Bachir Attar. his father, Hadj Abdesalam Attar was the undisputed leader until his death in 1982. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Therealmmoj (talk • contribs) 17:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

New external link
I would like to add a link to the MythiMedia research project (Bologna University, Italy) http://www.mythimedia.org/. The project explores the presence of Greek mythology in today's culture, and contains an article entitled "W.S. Burroughs, Brian Jones and the Pipes of Pan of Joujouka" (http://www.mythimedia.org/pipes_of_pan_of_joujouka%20.html) [this is the address that should be linked]. The site is written in English. Fallingdrapery 00:51, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

this link is bogus

thanks for the help
cooperation is nice the page looks good seems better will look at the other pages soon have much research done now but will avoid long posts on discussion pages from now on!!

somewhat
indeed images are nice but maybe some more?

album covers?
if you have some perhaps upload?

perhaps a page for each release???
with links? do you have the cds etc?

or can doawnload covers later

details need footnotes how to do?

info box
Info box there remove tag?

re fair use brian jones original cover image
this seems to be the group of hamri the painter who brought this village and group to global attention, it is an album cover and therefore fair use regardless of one admin opinion. Only on astehic grounds should it be moved from the info box to elsewhere on the page I think. comment below. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.229.160.72 (talk • contribs) 00:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
 * No, it would be fair use to display an album cover in an article about that album. Adding it to an article about the artist is simply decorative, which isn't covered by fair use. Please review Wikipedia's fair use guidelines (specifically: "Cover art: Cover art from various items, for identification only in the context of critical commentary of that item (not for identification without critical commentary)"). Thanks, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:58, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Semi-protected
I have just semi-protected this article for 1 week, due to the ongoing edit war over external links, references etc. Also see the (apparently unresolved) mediation attempt (see User:FayssalF/JK). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

The Master Musicians of Joujouka, Brian Jones and the Rolling Stones
In 1968 Rolling Stones Brian Jones recorded the Master Musicians Joujouka. Ref the LP Brian Jones Presents The Pipes Of Pan At Joujouka sleeve notes. The record was released on Rolling Stones Records in 1971.

User:Opiumjones 23 02:33, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Discussion Moved to Mediation at User:FayssalF/JK
User:FayssalF/JKOpiumjones 23 (talk) 01:17, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Note re external links
I note that an anon Ip has blanked the external links on this page. It would be wise to reinstate them as they contain many refs and info re Master Musicians of Joujouka/Jajouka. NB I added some weeks ago external links on Master Muisicans of Jajouka featuring bachir Attar eg an interview with Bachir from the Walrus maga in Canada. The interview refs the original group and Bachir's one so it should be here too.Opiumjones 23 (talk) 10:39, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Disambiguation
I am pretty sure that there used to be a hatnote at the top of this article, distinguishing this subject from The Master Musicians of Jajouka led by Bachir Attar. I can't remember if there was a reason for removing it but I think the hatnote was, and will be, helpful. But given the editing history of this particular article, I thought I would mention it here before doing so. (Note that the other article does have a hatnote.) -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:21, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Y Done. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:33, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Schism
(Cross-posted to Talk:The Master Musicians of Jajouka led by Bachir Attar) I am not sure why Lee Ranaldo's essay was removed as a source. The paragraph beginning with "In the time since my visit to Jajouka I have been made aware of a situation ..." is an even-handed, neutral account acknowledging (if not describing) the schism between the two musical groups. I propose restoring a brief explanation, based on Ranaldo's writing, to both articles. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:12, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I have added a "Schism" section to briefly deal with the split between the two groups. I hope I have done this in as neutral a way as possible.  I have used the same text and references (including the Lee Ranaldo piece) in both articles.  The split should certainly be mentioned. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 02:24, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Another potential source: New York Times article from 1995 . this appears (without a link) under "Further reading" in the Jajouka article. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:33, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
 * And another, from The Independent, 1995 . This was at User:FayssalF/JK, where FayssalF was attempting to moderate the article issues; one of the involved parties rejected it outright over the "Jajouka/Joujouka" spelling, but not for the actual content itself (so far as I can tell; see also TL;DR).  It is certainly suitable for citing the fact that the schism exists. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 18:01, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Professor Philip Schuyler's essay is also a source for the schism but some of his conclusions and suppositions are based on the 1990s don't seem accurate today. Philip Schuyler Joujouka/Jajouka/Zahjoukah Moroccan Music and Euro-American Imagination from Mass Mediations Ed.Walter Armbrust, New Approaches to Popular Culture in the Middle East and Beyond UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA PRESS 2000 available to read, http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft8k4008kx&chunk.id=s1.6.43&toc.id=ch6&toc.depth=1&brand=ucpress&anchor.id=d0e4065#X — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.152.161.176 (talk) 21:52, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

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Jajouka between the mountains
I found https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjQefHjLSTo which is an album by this group that's not in their discography. I know little of this band or the type of music surrounding it and I can't find much citation about this album anywhere, I am encouraging people who are knowledgeable about this band (or are better at digging out information than I am) to research this album and either confirm or debunk its existence as a Master Musicians of Joujouka album. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.58.121.66 (talk) 23:16, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It's part of the other band's discography (Jajouka, not Joujouka). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 03:36, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:The Master Musicians of Joujouka


text:
User talk:Carmel monkey

Hi! Thanks for uploading Image:Fugly slut.jpg. I notice it currently doesn't have an image copyright tag. Could you add one to let us know its copyright status? (You can use if you release it under the GFDL, or  if you claim fair use, etc.) If you don't know what any of this means, just let me know where you got the images and I'll tag them for you. Thanks so much, Evil Monkey → Talk 07:57, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not your personal image host. Please refrain from uploading media not relevant to the project. --Slowking Man 08:24, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)

title: User talk:Carmel monkey


text:
Ojos del Salado

Nevado Ojos del Salado is a dormant complex volcano in the Andes on the Argentina–Chile border. It is the highest volcano on Earth and the highest peak in Chile. The upper reaches of Ojos del Salado consist of several overlapping lava domes, lava flows and volcanic craters, with sparse ice cover. The complex extends over an area of 70 - 160 km2 and its highest summit reaches an altitude of 6893 m above sea level. Numerous other volcanoes rise around Ojos del Salado.

Being close to the Arid Diagonal of South America, the mountain has extremely dry conditions, which prevent the formation of substantial glaciers and a permanent snow cover. Despite the arid climate, there is a permanent crater lake about 100 m in diameter at an elevation of 6480 m-6500 m within the summit crater and east of the main summit. This is the highest lake of any kind in the world. Owing to its altitude and the desiccated climate, the mountain lacks vegetation.

Ojos del Salado was volcanically active during the Pleistocene and Holocene, during which it mainly produced lava flows. Activity was in two phases and a depression or caldera formed in the course of its growth. The volcano was also impacted by eruptions of its neighbour to the west, Nevado Tres Cruces. The last eruption occurred around 750 CE; steam emissions observed in November 1993 may have constituted another eruptive event.

An international highway between Argentina and Chile crosses north of the mountain. Ojos del Salado can be ascended from both countries; the first ascent was made in 1937 by Jan Alfred Szczepański and Justyn Wojsznis, members of a Polish expedition in the Andes. During the middle of the 20th century there was a debate on whether Ojos del Salado or Aconcagua was the highest mountain in South America which was eventually resolved in favour of Aconcagua.

Name
The name Ojos del Salado refers to a river, Río Salado ("Salty River"), that a 1937 Polish expedition used to reach the mountain. It is unclear whether the name was already used before by a Chile-Argentina boundary commission. Another theory posits that the name means "salty eyes" or "salty springs", referring to mineral deposits on its flanks. The mountain is often referred to as Cerro Ojos del Salado and Nevado Ojos del Salado; the former is a common term for "mountain" in Chile and the latter means "snowy", referring to snow-covered mountains. There are two summits, known as the eastern or Argentine and western or Chilean summit; both lie along the international boundary and get their names after the country from which they can be more easily reached.

Geography and geomorphology
Ojos del Salado is part of the High Andes and rises from the southern end of the Puna de Atacama, a high plateau next to the Atacama Desert with an average elevation of 4000 m. The border between Argentina and Chile runs across the summit of the mountain in east-west direction. The Argentine part is within Catamarca Province and the Chilean in Copiapo Province of the Atacama Region. The highway Chile Route 31 runs between the city of Copiapo west of the volcano and the Paso San Francisco to Argentina, lying about 20 km north of the volcano, making it more accessible than many other volcanoes there. The region is uninhabited and lacks water resources; many parts are only accessible through dirt roads.

Ojos del Salado is a dormant volcano that rises to 6893 m, 6879 m or 6887 m elevation. It is the world's highest volcano and the second-highest summit of the Andes, and the highest summit in Chile. Ojos del Salado is not a single conical summit but a massif/complex volcano formed by overlapping smaller volcanoes, with over 20 craters. Two edifices, less than 2.5 km wide, flank the 1.3 x summit crater on its eastern and western side. Basalt, gravel, pumice and scoria crop out in its rim, which is lower on the northern side. A second 300 - 400 m crater lies just west of the summit crater. Reportedly, the summit is separated by a deep gap into two separate peaks. Thick short dacitic lava flows make up the core 13 x area of the volcano but pyroclastic fall material covers much of the summit area.

The massif rises about 2 km above the surrounding terrain and covers an oval area of about 70 km2–160 km2, consisting of lava domes, lava flows, pyroclastic cones and volcanic craters that rise about 2 km above the surrounding terrain. The massif appears to feature a buried caldera, visible through a slope break from the western side, and/or a 2.5 km depression. The occurrence of a rift-like structure with numerous small craters has also been reported. Volcanic cones form a north-northeast trending alignment on the western flank. Cerro Solo and El Fraile are large lava domes on the flanks of Ojos del Salado, and produced pyroclastic flows.

Wind-driven erosion has produced megaripple sand fields on the northern flank. Above 6000 m elevation talus-covered slopes and lava flows form the bulk of the surface, while the desert plains begin below 5000 m elevation. The ground above 4000 - 5600 m elevation is expected to contain permafrost, which is likely continuous at higher elevations and overlaid with a thin active layer. Cryoturbation landforms were not conspicuous according to Nagy et al. 2019, presumably because wind-driven phenomena overprint the effects of cryoturbation. Mass movements have left traces on the mountain.

Lakes
Ojos del Salado hosts the highest lake in the world in the form of the crater lake in the summit crater. Fed by permafrost and snowfields, it lies at 6480 - 6500 m elevation. It is surrounded by fumaroles and covers an area of 6000 m2. Waters in a creek flowing into this lake reach temperatures of 40.8 C.

There are two lakes at 5900 m elevation on the northeastern slope, c. 4 km away from the higher lake. Each has an area of 2500 m2 and an estimated depth of 1 m. Ephemeral lakes occur at 5900 - 6000 m elevation, when meltwater from permafrost accumulates in closed depressions. Such ponds may form in depressions at 6380 m elevation. Some of the lakes may be permanently frozen. Lakes might disappear with climate change owing to the breakdown of permafrost.

Surroundings
The landscape is dominated by volcanoes, many of Pleistocene or Holocene age, and is the highest volcanic region in the world. Young volcanoes have conical shapes and often feature summit craters. Travellers have called the region a "moonscape". There are hot springs in the region, such as the Termas Laguna Verde at the shores of Laguna Verde, which are frequented by visitors.

The volcano lies in the middle of an over 80 km long east–west trending chain of volcanoes that form a drainage divide and includes the volcanoes Nevado Tres Cruces, Incahuasi and Cerro Blanco. This chain of volcanoes appears to be part of the Ojos del Salado-San Buenaventura tectonic lineament, which corresponds to a geographic (southern boundary of the Puna de Atacama) and tectonic discontinuity in the region. The lineament may be a consequence of the subduction of the Copiapo Ridge at this latitude. An alternative view is that the subducting Copiapo Ridge is actually located north of the lineament; this would be more consistent with the theory that the subduction of such ridges gives rise to gaps in the volcanic chain.

Ice and glaciers
Except for firn and small glaciers in sheltered parts of the mountain, Ojos del Salado lacks substantial ice cover. This is due to the arid climate of the region, which causes the equilibrium line altitude of ice to rise above the top of the mountain and keeps most peaks in the area ice-free. Only farther south at Tronquitos does more extensive glaciation begin. Temporary ice and snow accumulations can be mistaken for glaciers, and glacier areas shown on maps are often actually immobile firn fields. The ice reaches thicknesses of only 10 - 15 m and areal extents of a few hundred metres. Meltwater feeds streams.

Climbing parties in 1956 reported two glaciers on the northwestern slope, a 1958 report indicated that an ice body at 6600 m elevation descends into two branches and is followed at lower elevation by another glacier also with two branches—but in neither case with any evidence of movement— and in 2014 there was ice in the summit crater and substantial glaciers on the eastern and southern slopes, which reached elevations below 6000 m. There have been increases in ice area between 1974 and 1983 but between 1986 and 2000, ice area decreased by 40%. The melting of the ice is expected to produce an increased discharge at first, but eventually ice diminishes to the point that runoff will decline.

Penitentes have been encountered by climbers as early as 1937, in 1949 there were reportedly 5 - 8 m high penitentes on Ojos del Salado. Penitentes are high ice spires which form when ice sublimates in the intense insolation.

Subsurface ice
Ice buried beneath sand and encased in moraines is more important than surface ice at Ojos del Salado. It is retreating but the insulating effect of the cover slows the retreat. Cryokarst, erosional gullies and so-called "infilled valleys" have been observed; they most likely form when buried ice and snow melt. The combined effect of erosion by the meltwater and the disappearance of ice volume creates cavities that collapse and form the valleys and pseudokarst landforms. Pseudokarst landforms and dolines are other structures generated by the melting of buried ice.

Past glaciation
Lateral moraines altered by wind erosion occur north of Ojos del Salado and some lava flows bear traces of glaciation. Research published in 2019 found cirques and U-shaped valleys on Ojos del Salado. However, there is no evidence of Pleistocene glacier advances in the region nor any indication of a Pleistocene snowline, although cirques have been reported from Nevado Tres Cruces and some sources propose the existence of glaciers 19,000 years ago. The monsoon reached farther south during the Pleistocene but did not reach Ojos del Salado, allowing the development of glaciers only at more northern latitudes. Westerly winds did not regularly influence the climate at the volcano, either.

Geology
In South America, there are about 200 volcanoes with evidence of eruptions during the Pleistocene and Holocene along the western coast, where the Nazca Plate and Antarctic Plate subducts beneath the South America Plate in the Peru-Chile Trench. Volcanic activity is localized in four major volcanic belts, the Northern, Central (CVZ), Southern and Austral Volcanic Zones; these are separated by belts without volcanic activity and form part of the Pacific Ring of Fire. Where volcanic activity occurs, the subduction process releases fluids from the downgoing slab which trigger the formation of melts in the mantle that eventually ascend to the surface and give rise to volcanism.

The CVZ spans Peru, Bolivia, Chile and Argentina and contains about 1,100 recognized volcanoes, many of which are extremely old and are still recognizable owing to the low erosion rates in the region. Apart from stratovolcanoes, the CVZ includes numerous calderas, isolated lava domes and lava flows, maars and pyroclastic cones. Most of the volcanoes are remote and thus constitute a low hazard. Ojos del Salado is part of the CVZ and constitutes its southern boundary. South of the volcano volcanism ceased during the last six million years and until 32° south, subduction takes place at a shallow angle and volcanism is absent in the "Pampean flat-slab". The shallow angle may be a consequence of the subduction of submarine topography, such as the Copiapo Ridge at the northern end of the Juan Fernández Ridge at the southern margin of the gap.

Local
The basement in the region crops out in the Cordillera Claudio Gay area, and consists of sedimentary rocks of Devonian-Carboniferous age. The rocks are intruded by and covered by granites and rhyolites associated with Permian volcanic rocks and the Choiyoi Group. Oligocene to recent volcanic rocks and volcano-sedimentary formations cover this basement. The topography at Ojos del Salado bears evidence of what may have been past magmatic uplift. Seismic tomography has yielded evidence of a low seismic velocity anomaly underneath the volcano that may constitute the pathway through which water emanating from the downgoing slab rises through the mantle and gives rise to melting.

Volcanism in the region commenced 26 million years ago, when the Farallon Plate broke up and subduction speed increased. Initially between 26 and 11 million years ago activity was concentrated in the Maricunga region 60 km west of the Ojos del Salado region, where only small-volume volcanism took place and which constituted the back-arc to the Maricunga arc. Between 8–5 million years ago activity declined in the Maricunga region and increased in the Ojos del Salado region, until Maricunga volcanism ceased 4 million years ago. This shift coincided with a gradual flattening of the subduction process since the Miocene and was accompanied by change in crustal and mantle properties that are reflected in the isotope ratios of erupted volcanic rocks. During the Quaternary, volcanism formed the edifices of Cerro Solo, El Fraile, Incahuasi, El Muerto, El Muertito, Falso Azufre, Nevado San Francisco, Nevado Tres Cruces and Ojos del Salado, which together cover over half of the area. Apart from the large volcanoes, many smaller mafic monogenetic volcanoes developed in the area, especially east of Ojos del Salado. Pleistocene volcanism was limited to the Ojos del Salado area, where recent faulting offset volcanic rocks. The large dimensions of Ojos del Salado indicate that magmatism was focused here.

Composition
Volcanic rocks erupted by Ojos del Salado form a calc-alkaline potassium-rich suite of dacitic rocks, with occasional andesite and rhyodacite. Earlier in the geological history of the region more mafic magmas also erupted. The rocks contain phenocrysts like augite, biotite, hornblende, hypersthene, opaque minerals, plagioclase, pyroxene and quartz. Magma mixing phenomena produced olivine and pyroxene xenocrysts and amphibole reaction rims.

Climate
Detailed climate data do not exist for the area. The Puna de Atacama region has an extreme climate with strong wind, high elevation, a dry climate and high insolation; the area is in or just south of the Arid Diagonal.

Temperatures at lower elevations can exceed 10 C but mean annual temperatures only reach -10 C. Mean winds at Laguna Verde reach maximum speeds of 8 - 10 m/s in winter, on the mountaintops they can exceed 10 m/s and can impede climbing attempts. Winds blow strongest in the afternoon. The winds produce aeolian landforms such as aeolian sediments, dunes, gravel pavements, abraded rocks and megaripples at lower elevations, and redeposit snow.

Precipitation consists mostly of hail and snow. It either amounts to less than 150 mm per year or reaches 300 - 500 mm per year. Compared to sites farther north, precipitation falls primarily during winter, although snowfall is common in summer. Precipitation probably peaks at 5500 m where the cloud base lies; above that elevation it decreases to about 200 mm. Snow cover in the area is sporadic and quickly sublimates, which hinders its measurement; the average snow cover is less than 5 cm thick.

Vegetation and fauna
Due to the dry climate, the region is a desert with little vegetation occurring above 4600 m elevation. However, lichens and mosses have been found at higher elevations and green growths have been reported from the summit region. , there were no reports of plants in the waterbodies on Ojos del Salado. Salt, acid and cold-tolerant bacteria have been recovered from sediments in the lakes on Ojos del Salado, consistent with microorganism samples from similar dry volcanic environments.

A diverse flora and fauna has been described in the lower elevation regions south-southeast of Ojos del Salado. Birds such as ducks, flamingos and geese and mammals such as guanacos and vicuñas occur in the Santa Rosa-Maricunga-Negro Francisco region. Chinchillas and vicuñas live in the valleys south of Ojos del Salado, and have drawn humans to the region. Earwigs have been observed at 5960 m elevation.

West of the volcano lies the Nevado Tres Cruces National Park and in 1991/1994 there were plans to make a national park on the Argentine side as well. , the establishment of a "zone of touristic interest" encompassing Ojos del Salado was under discussion in Chile.

Eruption history
Volcanic activity probably commenced 26 million, 3.3–1.5 million years ago or during the late Pleistocene. The 3.7±0.2 million years old Las Lozas Andesite may have been a precursor of Ojos del Salado. The oldest rocks of Ojos del Salado are 3.5–3.4 million years old dacites in the lower parts of the volcano. Argentine geological maps define a "Ojos del Salado basal complex", which consists of a number of Miocene volcanoes that have erupted andesite and dacite, partially in glacial environments.

The volcano developed in two stages, with the more recent one grown on top of the older. A somma volcano structure may have formed during an eruption that generated the pumice deposits on the lower slopes of the volcano, and there are potential air fall deposits north of it. Ojos del Salado may or may not have produced pyroclastic flows; the neighbouring Nevado Tres Cruces c. 67,000 years ago produced extensive deposits on and around Ojos del Salado and in the valley between the two volcanoes; these were originally interpreted to have originated at Ojos del Salado. A pyroclastic flow erupted by Ojos del Salado descended the Cazadero valley and constitutes the "El Quemado Ignimbrite". Cerro Solo, whose emplacement was probably accompanied by intense pyroclastic flow activity, and lava domes in the summit region are of Pleistocene age. The long-term growth rate of Ojos del Salado amounts to 0.03 - 0.04 km3/ka.

Radiometric dating has yielded ages of 1.53 ± 0.13, 1.2 ± 0.3 million and less than one million years ago for rocks in the northwestern part of Ojos del Salado, 1.08 ± 0.09 million years for flows underlying the summit, 1.08 ± 0.04 million years for the northern flank of Ojos del Salado, 700,000±50,000 for its western flank, 450,000±60,000 for El Muerto, 340,000 ± 190,000 years for the summit rocks, and 230,000±40,000 years for El Fraile. Lava flows and a lava dome on the northern flank have yielded ages of 100,000 ± 17,000 and 35,000 years, respectively. The "El Quemado Ignimbrite" may be either 200,000 or less than 50,000 years old. The youngest dates reported are 30,000 years ago.

Holocene and historical activity
The volcano produced lava flows during the Holocene, which cover an area of 120 km2, as well as pumice deposits at Laguna Verde and elongated fractures in the summit region. A rhyodacitic eruption was dated with tephrochronology to have occurred 750 ± 250 CE, and may have deposited tephra over the Bolson de Fiambala and in the Tafí and Villa Vil areas of northwestern Argentina. Many volcanic rocks have a fresh appearance but there is no clear evidence of recent activity.

There are no confirmed historical eruptions and the volcano is presently inactive. In November 1993, observers witnessed ash and steam columns on two separate days but no deformation of the volcano was observed by satellites during this occasion. An ash cloud observed on June 13, 2015, and which led to a warnings about volcanic ash to aircraft turned out to be wind-blown volcanic ash in the Fiambala valley.

Hazards
There is no information on volcanic hazards at Ojos del Salado and volcanic hazards in the Central Volcanic Zone are poorly reconnoitred, but a 2018 presentation at the University of Auckland ranked it 14th of 38 Argentine volcanoes and the Chilean geological agency SERNAGEOMIN 75th out of 92, thus as a very low risk volcano. The latter has published hazard maps for the Chilean part of the volcano. Future eruptions would most likely produce lava domes, lava flows and minor explosive activity, and the presence of ice on the mountain makes it a potential source for lahars. Effects would most likely be limited to the direct surroundings of the volcano, such as highway Chile Route 31.

Fumarolic activity
There are fumaroles that emit sulfurous smokes. Polish climbers in 1937 first observed this activity, 650 ft below the summit and in the summit crater. Fumarolic activity appears to be linked to a rift structure on the volcano. Climbers in 1957 reported that the fumaroles were noisy and the emissions intense enough that with unfavourable winds they could suffocate people. The fumaroles can be observed from satellites in the form of temperature anomalies which reach 4 K-change above background temperatures, but the steam plumes are poorly visible from the ground except from close distance. Geysers have been reported in the summit region. According to a 2020 publication, the mountain was being evaluated for the generation of geothermal power.

Human history
As Ojos del Salado is hidden behind and nested among many peaks of similar elevation, for centuries travellers and mountaineers paid little attention to the mountain. Its remoteness meant that for a long time, both its elevation and exact topography were unclear. The positions and names of the mountains were frequently confused.

The Inca used the Paso San Francisco as a major crossing of the Andes but there is no evidence of them building any structures on Ojos del Salado even though a number of such sites exist in the surrounding region. The Spanish conquistador Diego de Almagro crossed the Andes at Ojos del Salado but did not mention it. Ojos del Salado is likewise absent from the 1861 plans of William Wheelwright for a railway across Paso San Francisco. The explorer Walter Penck crossed the area in 1912/13 and 1913/14 but did not identify the mountain.

Ascents and debate on elevation
In 1896, 1897 and 1903 the Chile-Argentina boundary commission identified a peak in the area and named it "Ojos del Salado"; according to a myth their "Ojos del Salado" was a much smaller mountain and the actual Ojos del Salado was their "Peak 'e'". The Polish climbers Justyn Wojsznis and Jan Szczepański from the Second Polish Andean Expedition reached the summit on February 26, 1937 and left a cairn but most of the maps and report they drafted were lost during World War II.

After the Polish expedition, the mountain remained unclimbed until 1955, although expeditions went to its lower slopes and sometimes confused other peaks for Ojos del Salado. In that year an expedition from Tucumán ascended a mountain south of Ojos del Salado, which they mistook for the volcano. They stated that the peak may be higher than Aconcagua, which media reported as if it were proven fact. These measurements set off a debate whether Ojos del Salado was higher than Aconcagua and thus the highest summit of the Western Hemisphere, and drew attention to the mountain. Three separate Chilean, Argentine and Austrian parties went to Ojos del Salado in 1956; the Chilean party measured an elevation of 7084 m with a barometer, a value that was once again presented as proven by the press despite the unreliability of this technique. The Chilean party also claimed seeing the Argentine pampa and the Pacific Ocean from the summit. In 1957, the official elevation of Ojos del Salado was 6870 m according to Argentina and 6880 m according to Chile.

The debate on the elevation and confusion about which mountain was Ojos del Salado and who climbed which peak prompted an expedition by the American Alpine Club in 1956. The expedition was hindered by bad weather conditions and a gust of wind stretching a measurement line may have almost frustrated the goal to determine the summit elevation of Ojos del Salado. The same party later used geodetic methods to establish the elevation of Ojos del Salado as 6885.5 ± and lower than the 6960 m high Aconcagua. In 1989, Francesco Santon of the University of Padua in Italy, with Argentine assistance, used GPS-based positioning to determine an elevation of 6900 ±.

Mountaineering and tourism
Ojos del Salado and the surrounding mountains draw fewer mountaineers than Aconcagua, with only several hundred climbers every year. Since the 1990s commercial tours have become important facilitators for ascents, and the number of climbers has increased in the 21st century. Ojos del Salado is one of the Second Seven Summits and Volcanic Seven Summits mountaineering challenges. It is easier to ascend than an eight thousander owing to its lower elevation and the absence of rock faces and ice, but the high elevation, cold, dry and windy weather and impassable terrain are common challenges for would-be climbers and only a third of all climbing attempts reach the summit. Would-be mountaineers need to consult weather forecasts and prepare equipment before attempting an ascent. The mountain can be ascended from both the Argentine and the Chilean side, but owing to the better logistics most ascents occur from the Chilean side. The increasing mountaineering activities on Ojos del Salado have raised concerns about environmental impacts.

Ascent from the Chilean side is easier as the first refuge can be reached by car, but the actual climb is easier from the Argentine side. A dirt road departing from the Chile Route 31 highway to Paso San Francisco heads south to Ojos del Salado, past Refugio Murray to the bivouac Refugio Universidad de Atacama/Jorge Rojas at 5200 m elevation, from there a path goes to Refugio Tejos at 5825 m elevation and eventually to the summit of Ojos del Salado through scree-covered slopes and a steep ridge/couloir at the end. Ropes and supports are available. Between 2004 and 2015, a Chilean company held a mountaineering concession for the Chilean side and maintained the infrastructure there; after the end of the concession maintenance resumed in 2018. From Argentina, the path runs from Cazadero Grande (Quemadito hut) along a large creek to its origin at Aguas Calientes at 4200 m. From there it continues first up dry valleys to Acqua di Vicuna at 4950 m elevation, to the El Arenal plateau at 5500 m elevation and eventually along various routes to Ojos del Salado. The mountain is also accessible by vehicle, up to 6650 m or 5900 m elevation, through a dirt road built after a helicopter accident in 1994.

Other uses
Astronomers have surveyed the volcano for the possibility of creating an observatory there. The landforms such as the gullies and crater lakes and their conditions, and climatic conditions around Ojos del Salado have also led researchers to investigate it as a potential analogue to environments on Mars.

Numerous record-high altitude attempts with vehicles have been carried out at Ojos del Salado, including with cars, electric vehicles, motorcycles and utility vehicles. A modified car was driven to an elevation of 6688 m in 2015.

title: Ojos del Salado