text:
Talk:Post hoc ergo propter hoc

Suggestion
to include a reference to apophenia both within the text and under the See Also section. It might be appropriate to amend the coin-finding paragraph to point out that the event was a coinicidence, and the interpretation of the event was an example of apophenia.

As both a relative newcomer to these pages and a non-specialist in this area I invite another reader to make the alteration, if it is felt appropriate. David Wigram

 * After reading the apophenia article, I don't think it is a pertinent link. Post hoc errors are not random, they are the result of giving correlation strength they don't deserve, like the pirates vs. global warming graph in the Flying Spaghetti Monster page. According to the article, apophenia is not a logical error so much as a neurological condition:

 * "Soon after his son committed suicide, Episcopalian Bishop James A. Pike (1913-1969) began seeing meaningful messages in such things as a stopped clock, the angle of an open safety pin, and the angle formed by two postcards lying on the floor. He thought they were conveying the time his son had shot himself (Christopher 1975: 139).".

 * This seems a bit stronger than post hoc. There is no false attribution of causality here, so much as recognizing the presence of a meaningful pattern where none exists. Granted, I only just heard of this term now, but I'm pretty confident that this is how it is to be applied.

 * And by the way, I noticed you signed your actual name, indicating you don't have a registered account. I'd suggest setting one up. there's no reason not too, and it makes editing stuff easier. Shaggorama 06:17, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Examples removed from merged articles
I merged Post hoc and Ergo propter hoc into this article. There were examples with each, which have been moved here in favor of a new example (see below).

These examples were from Post hoc:
 * A noncontroversial example is "I just washed my car, so of course it began to rain." Rain is not caused by car-washing, but the car owner connects the two events. Cars are washed every day, but it doesn't rain every day.

And:
 * This logical fallacy is often used by the media to misreport the results of correlative studies. For example, if a study showed that 70% of kids who played violent video games grew up to be criminals, whereas only 20% of kids who played nonviolent video games did, the media might report "violent video games make kids into criminals", which is not supported by the evidence. (The criminals may have played violent video games more because they were prone to violent behavior for other reasons. There is no evidence that the games caused their behavior to change.)

Note that the second actually serves better as an example of correlation implies causation (logical fallacy). (But that article seems to have plenty of good examples already.)

This example came from Ergo propter hoc:
 * ... (often this line of reasoning is found in voodoo or other superstitious beliefs. For example: "They waved a wand  at me, and I tripped on the stairs."  therefore, tripping on the stairs must have been' caused by the waving of the  wand.  Since causality is created in the observers mind, the resulting event can be conveniently chosen based on what  one believes about the cause.  i.e. for good luck charms, good events will be attributed; for curses, bad events.   The link is observer created.

The above example captures the idea well, but might be considered an offensive stereotype of Voodooism. I have constructed another example for use in the article. Hopefully, it is more neutral.

--Jacius 04:34, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * I added the tag to Post hoc and Ergo propter hoc—thanks for doing the actual work. Rafał Pocztarski 01:24, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I removed the statement" 'Post hoc ergo propter hoc' is one of the better known logical fallacies arising from its discussion on an eponymous episode of The West Wing” (humorous in light of its context). Rather than crediting West Wing for bringing this logical fallacy into the general consciousness, wouldn't a more accurate explanation be the secondary or university education of hundreds of millions over the past 2,000 years? If we’re going to credit the origin of the idea, perhaps someone with a better understanding of the historical foundations of rhetoric can provide an explanation. --Rick Bray 23:12, 27 Aug, 2005

"If, then therefore, because"?
In the opening paragraph, we have "Some philosophy books translate the Latin to simply: "If, then therefore, because." Should this read, "if after, then therefore because"?  I mean, literally it translates as "after this, therefore because of this". -GTBacchus(talk) 19:35, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

West Wing
This section should be removed entierly, as the consequence of mentioning such "facts" in all kind of philosophy articles would certainly cause Wikipedia to perish. As for now, I moved it to a Trivia section. The reference is made in the second episode of the first season. The title of the episode actually bears the name, Post Hoc, Ergo Proctor Hoc. Adam 01:51, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

 * I agree... removed completely. Fan cruft.  David Bergan 03:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Removed again. Its presence at the very top of the page is completely unnecessary and distracting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.247.183.117 (talk) 07:00, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

If you don't want to include a whole section on it, fine. At least mention it in a trivia section or a disambiguation message at the top of the page. It is highly relevant. It is not only a mention of this phrase, but an episode of a TV show which is TITLED this phrase. Jbbdude (talk) 16:29, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

canabis
About the link between canabis and heroin, this is a quite bad example : there are many real links between the two kinds of drugs and it's not rare that the pushers sell both products, even both don't have the same effects or dangers. J.

 * That's all fine and good but the purpose of this article is not to expand the debate on the relation of cannabis and heroin, but to demonstrate a logical fallacy. In its current form it is in fact a fallacy. It's also useful to demonstrate that even if the statement is true (for other reasons), it's still illogical. Logic doesn't determine what is true, it determines what can accurately be deduced from the stated premises. Aplomado  talk 19:24, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

 * If cannabis-->heroin is a fallacy, great. But let's not taint this article by pushing an agenda... put that ref in the cannabis article, and wikilink.  I replaced with a textbook NPOV example.  David Bergan 21:14, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Merge notification
I'm going to reinstate the merge banner... if you noticed it was a banner stating that Magical Thinking should be merged into this article... which means the discussion for it is on the MT talk page. Join us there if you would like. David Bergan 21:16, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Sorry, my mistake HighInBC 23:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

realistic example that one might find in real life
The example I put in this article relating to canabis and herion was the only example of this arguement that one might find in real life, it has been removed, more than once. I am not going to keep putting it in there against consensus, or even a determined reverter.

If this specific example is unnacceptable for any reason then an example of this logical fallacy that is actually used by people needs to be found. The examples that are there do explain the concept, but they are far reaching arguements that are not likely to be made by anybody. If another realistic example cannot be found I will once again return the example that was removed. HighInBC 23:06, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Perhaps in British Columbia legalization/use of cannabis isn't a politically charged issue... in the United States it definitely is, and since (a lot of) Americans visit wikipedia, the only NPOV way to go is to use other examples.

 * Part of the reason that the examples seem so "far-reaching" is that because in order to demonstrate a fallacy, it is best to use arguments that clearly show the lapse in reasoning. If we give an example that strikes the user as plausible, then she can't learn the nature of the fallacy.  Conversely, if she's given an example that is outlandish, then she can ascertain the reason why that argument is outlandish, and therefore learn the fallacious principle.

 * But to show I'm a good sport, I will provide a list of alternate, sourced, examples, and let you pick the one(s) you think are best.

 * "When Roger Babson, whose prediction of the great stock market crash brought him renown, became ill with tuberculosis, he returned to his home in Massachusetts rather than follow his doctor's advice to remain in the West. During the freezing winter he left the windows open, wore a coat with a heating pad in the back, and had his secretary wear mittens and hit the typewriter keys with rubber hammers.  Babson got well and attributed his cure to fresh air.  Air from pine woods, according to Babson, has chemical or electrical qualities (or both) of great medicinal value." (Source: Martin Gardner, Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science 1952, p.97)
 * Tightening up the reasoning gives us
 * When I returned to the freezing winter of Massachusetts (A), I was cured of tuberculosis (B).
 * Therefore the properties of a freezing winter in Massachusetts (A) caused the tuberculosis cure (B).

 * "Dr. Melvin Page wrote a book called Degeneration—Regeneration where he claimed that drinking milk is good for babies, but bad for adults. He stated that taken by adults, milk is the frequent cause of colds, sinus troubles, colitis, and most important, cancer.  One reason he gives for his view is that in Wisconsin more people die of cancer per capita than in any other state, and more milk is drunk in Wisconsin than in any other state."  (Source: James D. Carney/Richard K. Scheer, Fundamentals of Logic, Second Edition)
 * Tightening...
 * More milk is drunk and more people die of cancer in Wisconsin than in any other state.
 * Therefore milk drinking is a cause of cancer.

 * "I can't help but think that you are the cause of this problem; we never had any problem with the furnace until you moved into the apartment." The manager of the apartment house, on no stated grounds other than the temporal priority of the new tenant's occupancy, has assumed that the tenant's presence has some causal relationship to the furnace's becoming faulty.  (Source: T. Edward Damer, Attacking Faulty Reasoning, Third Edition p. 131)

 * "Ever since we quit going to church, business has been getting worse. If we want to keep from going completely bankrupt, we'd better start back to church."  Again, the claim is that one event was brought about by another event simply because of the temporal relationship.  (Source: T. Edward Damer, Attacking Faulty Reasoning, Third Edition p. 131)

 * "From the time of the Supreme Court decisions granting the accused more rights, the crime rate has steadily increased. It is the Supreme Court that brought about our increasing crime problems."  It is conceivable that there is some causal relationship between the judicial situation created by the Supreme Court decisions and the increased crime rate, but it would have to be established by more evidence than that of the temporal priority of the Court decisions.  (Source: T. Edward Damer, Attacking Faulty Reasoning, Third Edition p. 131)

 * "More and more young people are attending high schools and colleges today than ever before. Yet there is more juvenile delinquency and more alienation among the young.  This makes it clear that these young people are being corrupted by their education."  (Source: S. Morris Engel, With Good Reason, Fifth Edition p. 165)

 * "Twenty-five years after graduation, alumni of Harvard have an average income five times that of people the same age who have no college education. If a person wants to be wealthy, he or she should enroll at Harvard."  (Source: S. Morris Engel, With Good Reason, Fifth Edition p. 165)

 * Egyptians worshiped the ibis because each year, shortly after flocks of ibis had migrated to the banks of the Nile river, the river overflowed its banks and irrigated the land. The birds were credited with causing the precious flood waters when in fact both their migration and the river's overflow were effects of a common cause, the change of season.  (Source: S. Morris Engel, With Good Reason, Fifth Edition p. 166)

 * "Your auto accident doesn't surprise me. Just yesterday a black cat crossed your path."

 * "Your boss has a bigger vocabulary than you. That's one reason he's your boss."

 * Kind regards, David Bergan 06:11, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow, that is alot of examples. hehe. Yes, cannabis is a very contentious issue here in BC. And no opinion was being put forward in the example I gave. While I can see how the mere mention can be seen as POV, it simple points out the fallacy in a common arguement. I will look closer at your examples and I will try to find one that may be commonly beleived. HighInBC 13:02, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

 * You want a contentious example? Try "Autism is generally diagnosed about the age of 5. MMR vaccine is given about the age of 5. Therefore MMR causes autism." Anyone want to put that one on the main page?Robbak (talk) 05:32, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

How about the inclusion of some relevant political rhetoric, which is, I think, an unending source of post hoc statements? Ex: The McGovern wing of the Democrat party seems to have forgotten that we've been on offense for the last five years and that's why we haven't been attacked here at home. -Mitch McConnell, 8 August 2006 Thanks, Mike

I've removed the references to Autism / MMR, not because it is false, but because we must surely be able to define a Latin phrase without descending into controversy. EddieC Vito (talk) 18:41, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

affirming the consequent?
Anyone want to explain how post hoc is an example of AC? I don't see it, at least not without great artifice. 271828182 09:29, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Prayer
I'm not a religious man myself, but the sentence on prayer seems to me unnecessarily provocative. Surely the article would be just as informative without it, and wouldn't run the same risk of alienating the reader. Would anyone object if I removed it, or replaced it with a less contentious example? TimTim 07:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Removal of Fox News example
I'm curious as to why the Fox News example was removed. The example was perfectly valid and reasonable, and was not a kneejerk anti-Bush comment. The example was used because it demonstrates how editorial rhetoric often employs post hoc reasoning. I think there is a difference between my legitimate example and offensive political speech. Not only was it deleted, but it was deleted without comment. Not every mention of Bush or Fox News is a volley in the "culture war." DecayedWisdom 05:51, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Five examples?
Not sure that the article needs five examples of the fallacy when 2 (or at most 3) will suffice. I vote for rooster and autumn leaves, with ice cream in third place. The diet beverage one is slightly confusing, and the pirate one is utterly retarded. David Bergan 05:54, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

 * Better yet, we could use two of the sourced examples I gave above in the section "realistic example that one might find in real life". Either way, this article isn't meant to be a dumping ground of anyone's personal favorite flaws in reasoning.  David Bergan 05:58, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Nobody else is probably following this... but I went ahead and made these changes to the article. David Bergan 19:17, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Merge with Correlation does not imply causation
Somebody explain to me how this article is different from the Correlation does not imply causation article. It seems kind of reduntant to have both articles if one is just the latin name for the other. RageGarden 02:01, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Feel free to set up a merge. I would prefer this being the main article, since it's the proper textbook name of the argument where the other is more colloquial.  David Bergan 02:39, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

 * I have no idea how to set up a merge, but if someone would do that, I agree that it should be under post hoc ergo propter hoc. RageGarden 23:31, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Please see merge proposal and discussion here. - Grumpyyoungman01 08:07, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

 * I think there is sufficient difference between the two to not merge. The first difference is in the domain in which the terms are used Correlation does not imply causation is principally a statistical phrase which refers to a specific way of comparing two phenomena, Post hoc is more philosophical with a specific temporal component. As such Post hoc covers a wider range of errors and can cover a single pair of events where correlation can not be calculated. Correlation does not imply causation need not refer to sequential events, for instance there might be a correlation between poverty and obesity with a false claim that one causes the other. --Salix alba (talk) 16:44, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Good point. I recant my vote in favor of merging, but it would be nice if your distinction was clarified in one or both articles. David Bergan 20:32, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Could both of you please clarify your positions in the bolded text on Talk:Correlation does not imply causation so it is easy to find consensus? My own position is similar to Salix Alba's, in that I don't propose a complete merge, but Salix has put the case for no change at all. - Grumpyyoungman01 10:24, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

 * I'd oppose this merge as well, much for the reasons outlined above. The fallacies are related, and should probably refer to each other in their own articles and perhaps even clarify the difference, but they aren't the same thing. --Infophile (Talk) (Contribs) 15:55, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Yes, please don't merge these two articles, but if you do, merge post hoc into correlation does not imply causation, not the other way around. I think post hoc would work as a section of the correlation article, but I believe doing it the other way around might lead to a very infrequently visited article. Correlation does not imply causation is much more familiar and intelligible to people that haven't studied philosophy or latin (like myself.) 200.91.76.194 21:21, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I would also oppose the merge, as they aren't totally the same thing. This article deals with the idea that if A follows B, A must cause B, for example if I knock on my door and it rains later, knocking on my door must cause rain. The other article refers to creating links with unconnected factors without a time link, for example I drew 25% more drawings in 1989 than 1988, and the number of pigeons also went up by 25%, therefore the more i draw, the more pigeons there are. They aren't exactly the same. SGGH speak! 22:16, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

 * Of course post hoc is not the same as cum hoc, which is why I support a merge instead of, say, a deletion.
 * Also, saying in both articles that one is "subtlety different" than the other is confusing and pretentious. Why don't we clearly say what exactly the relationship is (instead of pretending that it is something too profound for hoi polloi), namely that "the phrase post hoc is more prevalent in philosophy contexts," and that it "includes a chronological connotation." --gwc 17:35, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 04:22, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Article text reused in newspaper story
The Asia Times Online story Iraq's 'surge' has its limits dated July 31, 2008, quotes extensively (with attribution) from the present article. I'm unsure if there is a corresponding template for this type of use. In any case, it should be of interest to those who have worked on this so far. __meco (talk) 17:30, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Post hoc non ergo propter hoc
Could someone please provide a simple explanation for the similar phrase, post hoc non ergo propter hoc? Clearly enough it is a negative to post hoc ergo propter hoc, but the sense of the negation is not at all clear, especially to those who have not studied Latin, which I suspect is the majority of people.

I encountered the phrase in the Annie Dillard book, The Maytrees. Not understanding it from context, I looked it up here, was redirected to this article, and am still not real clear on the meaning. Typofixer76 (talk) 21:06, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

 * When a magician in antiquity did a post-hoc-ergo-propter-hoc, then it was likely that an angry philosopher came forth screaming ", stulte!", if he was latinate. Post after hoc this ergo therefore propter because of hoc this. Non means not and stulte'' you stupid-head. In greek i don't know. Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 13:47, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

One way to start looking at the meaning of "Post hoc, non ergo propter hoc" is to state that it is the opposite of "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc." Without the "non," this is the name for a particular type of false logic that people commonly use when they are seeking to prove something. In Latin it means, "After this, therefore, because of this." or "When something happens after something else happens, the second thing always happens as a result of the first thing happening." Adding "non" to it makes it into an accurate statement, which doesn't serve the purpose of the person who wants to point out the type of false logic someone is employing in order to prove something. Note that the power of this false logic comes from the fact that often when something happens it often does cause something else to happen. --Wendalore (talk) 04:14, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

"Post hoc ergo propter hoc" as Latin for "After this, therefore because of this," is known as a "logical fallacy." People often use this type of "logic" to try and demonstrate or to prove something. They point out that first one thing happened, and then another thing happened, and they are implying that the second thing happened because of the first thing. For example, Jennifer says, "My cousin from California called and she told me she was sick with a cold. A day later, I came down with a cold. That shows that it is possible to catch a cold over the phone." When Bob says, "Oh, that's an example of "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc," Bob is pointing out that Jennifer, who is using the case of talking on the phone to her far-away cousin who has a cold, and then getting a cold herself, to prove that you can catch a cold over the phone, is using a fallacious type of logic. Bob doesn't say "Post hoc, non ergo propter hoc, because that would not point out as specifically that Jennifer is using a certain kind of false logic. It's the exact phrase "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc." that names and specifies the false logic. --Wendalore (talk) 04:17, 1 November 2013 (UTC) --Wendalore (talk) 04:19, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Chicken and Egg
Just to be a pedantic bugger about it, as I'm in that kind of mood...

I know it's a classical example, but it always irks me, always has and will. It's easy to solve. You merely need to decide which camp you're in: Evolutionist, or Creationist (bear with me!).

Evolutionist: Consider Dinosaurs, lizards and etcetera. Eggs came millions of years before the Chicken, the first "true" one of which would have hatched from its own egg a mere few tens of thousands of years ago somewhere in the east indies.

Creationist: Consider Genesis. Chickens were presumably brought into being by God, hence coming before the eggs they then laid (not being made during the Genesis event). Though it's been a while since I read those particular passages, and I could be wrong.

We need to find a better "can't tell which one should come first" endless loop :) 77.102.101.220 (talk) 18:39, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

The chicken v egg argument doesn't actually seem to fit this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.78.31.166 (talk) 19:06, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I'll add a little something. I used to puzzle (with enjoyment) about the impossibility of solving "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" picturing chickens and eggs endlessly receding into the past. Recently, this question appeared on Yahoo Answers, and, having just been discussing evolution—which happens a lot on YA R&S, (the Fundamentalist Christians VS the atheists, neither of which I am) it just spontaneously popped into my mind: "They evolved together." (as is illustrated in the text just above) Never again will I be baffled by this question! It simply, as far as I'm concerned, doesn't have an answer!! Like "which is faster, a chair or a table?" "Which is better, an apple or an orange?" I'll agree that although "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc," does have to do with successive time, as does "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" they have no relation to each other. One has to do with how you frame something in your mind, (Post hoc… ) and the chicken one has to do with misperceiving biological facts. Anyone who happens to be here maybe could state this better? --Wendalore (talk) 04:39, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * As you asked, Wendalore, I would answer re chicken vs egg: egg, as chickens evolved from dinosaurs and dinosaurs laid eggs i.e there were eggs before there were chickens. The question of which came first the chicken or the chicken egg is meaningless because as you say chicken eggs evolved coincidently with chickens (and vice versa!).  The problem with the question of speed and furniture, is different in that neither has speed as an innate characteristic.  If you dropped the two from an aircraft then it would come down to aerodynamics, otherwise it would come down to the size of the motor you strapped on them, or then again ....  The question regarding fruit fails becaause it turns on a characteristic that is undefined: better for what? at what etc?  None of this relates to post hoc ergo propter hoc though. LookingGlass (talk) 11:27, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Miswording
In the introduction the article contrasts cum hoc with post hoc and due to the wording makes it sound as if Cum Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc places emphasis on chronology instead of post hoc. When in reality the exact inverse is true.

popular culture? (or something of the like)
Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc is mentioned in the second episode of The West Wing as seen in Post hoc, ergo propter hoc

Video Discription:

Additional: --Fresh Start (talk) 06:35, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
 * http://westwing.bewarne.com/2posthoc.html
 * http://www.fallacyfiles.org/posthocf.html

The War on Democracy
In John Pilger's documentary 'The War on Democracy', during an interview with Roger Noriega (US Assistant Secretary of State), Noriega attempts to deflect Pilger's point saying that it is a logical fallacy - 'post hoc ergo propter hoc'. Pilger asks him to explain. Noriega says that just because the US provided funding to organisations that later attempted to overthrow the government of Venezuela, it doesn't follow that it happened *because* they provided the funding. This is interesting as an example - partly because the logical fallacy is actually named and described. It is also interesting because of the rhetorical trick Noriega himself seems to be using: reinterpreting Pilger's argument, which is about probable causality or degree (perhaps the funding tipped the balance? or made it easier?) and moral responsibility (should the US be funding coup plotters?) into one of formal logic.

The documentary is available online here (this segment is about 37-38 minutes in): http://www.johnpilger.com/videos/the-war-on-democracy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.194.77 (talk) 18:44, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Talk page misuse (burn it!). lesion (talk) 04:31, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Related expressions
I know there are probably several sayings in different social contexts related to this fallacy. One I've heard from friends in the medical field is "True, true, unrelated" (eg, the patient saw a dog, comes down with the flu, but it is not likely that the dog caused the flu - even though they may narrate the events to the doctor with this implication). If people submit other common references to this fallacy, may be worth having a section for the readers' information..? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.143.110.154 (talk) 12:20, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

History of the term
I feel the article could benefit from some background about its history, fisrt recorded use etc. Thanks. lesion (talk) 04:33, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Use in popular entertainment
Sheldon Cooper used it in an episode of The Big Bang Theory 85.83.19.103 (talk) 18:02, 31 January 2013 (UTC)Dan Frederiksen

This is also the title of an Episode of the TV series "The West Wing" Series 1 Episode 2

80.229.243.128 (talk) 03:18, 30 December 2015 (UTC) Mabel

De-merge and clarify
There is an article on wiki titled Fallacy - about fallacious reasoning not simply fallacies - so there is no imperative to merge cum hoc ergo propter hochere (anymore than to merge condor with eagle though they are similar). It seems to me that cum hoc ergo propter hoc deserves its own article. I would do this but wonder itth the mergers wouldn't merge it back.

De-mergeing would focus this article more clearly on the argument post hoc ergo propter hoc, of which there are some interesting examples here http://www.outofthefog.net/Treatment/PostHocErgoPropterHoc.html While the first of these clearly illustrates the fallacy the others illustrate that statements in this form are not fallacies merely because of being stated in this form, something that could perhaps be made clearer here. The article could perhaps address how it is reconciled with statistical proof. LookingGlass (talk) 11:09, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) A train always passes after the railroad crossing alarm sounds and the gates come down. Therefore the railroad crossing causes the train to pass.
 * 2) I wore my purple sweater and my team won against all the odds. Therefore I am going to wear that sweater to every game.
 * 3) Most divorced couples go to see a therapist before they separate. Therefore going to see a therapist will increase the chances that you will get a divorce.
 * 4) Children of divorce, on average, perform poorer academically. Therefore, if you get a divorce you will hurt your child's chances of going to college.
 * 5) Since we moved in together she has become very depressed. I feel like I've ruined her life.
 * 6) Since I stopped smoking we haven't had an argument. Who knew the answer could have been so simple?

This posting is erroneous
The phrase post hoc, ergo proctor hoc is not a false statement but a refutation of a false statement.

Well, ok, read literally, it is a false statement. But it is sad ironically, and meant to be read that way. Ironic in the classical sense of the word, meaning the opposite of what it says. (Yes, the original definition of irony, back when people spoke ancient Latin, is a rhetorical technique and a form of humor used to emphasize a point or to make it comical by saying the opposite of what you mean; it’s a flourish.)

So this posting should be fixed to emphasize that. Post hoc. . . (and cum hoc. . .) are rhetorical flourishes arguing against that which they literally appear to be stating.

Cheers. 204.111.113.41 (talk) 00:46, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

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Talk:Pagan's Motorcycle Club

2004 post
I have tried to smooth this article out, but it seems as if it is highly POV. The list of motorcycle gangs that have contributed to the California stereotype can probably be whittled down to about five or seven. The majority of the article stands out as an explanantion for their "outlaw" stigma. The paragraph that begins, "Cities are filled with gangs and the criminal subculture so it is not as easy as you might think for a club to survive." doesn't really seem to explain why that makes it hard for a club to survive. The sentence that says, "The Pagan's MC is a motorcycle club first and foremost and as such mirrors the values of the society in which it lives." raises a question also. Which society is being referred to; a mainstream society, subculture, or even a counter-culture? Lastly, if this club is not as responsible for its stigma as we may think then it looks bad when you try to explain it all away. Focus less on the explanations and more on your day-to-day activities as a club. Tell us of the cause(s) you may be aligned with or how it is that you actually do go about achieving the American dream. Don't tell us how we think you go about achieving the American dream. Hmm, that is all I have for now, good luck! Jaberwocky6669 04:34, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)

The stigma may be at least partially founded.
I'm not really a biker, but I do have a Yamaha Vino. Yeah, I know, it's a dinky scooter. Anyway, the Local 16th, which is how the Pagans here in Roanoke Virginia refer to theirselves, (P for Pagan, and P is the 16th letter of the alphabet) tend to be fairly friendly toward me. They don't see my vino as being any less of a bike. I often get affectionate nods from them for riding it around everywhere. At any rate, one day, I stop by one of the bars they frequent to shoot a game of pool. A few of them were talking about having just gotten out of prison for going up to New York City and picking fights with the Hells Angels. Wether they were just blowing smoke or not, I don't know. But at least some members of the Pagans that I am aquainted with are at least deserving of the outlaw stigma. Perhaps not all. It's really a matter of guilt by association. - 09:09, 27 April, 2006 (UTC)

Gang vs. Club
I reverted the change in category from Motorcycle Club to Motorcycle Gang. The Pagans are, in fact, a motorcycle club. The term motorcycle gang has no concensus definition. Mmoyer 02:35, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

When you're picking fights with HAMC where people get killed, you're a motorcycle GANG. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.166.157 (talk) 05:28, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Recent rework
I removed much unsourced material as follows:

 * Info re Massie's: I could not find any such name affiliated with the Pagans
 * Quote from Sandy Dobkin: No source
 * History info about development timeline: No source

Here is Ms. Dobkins quote:

 * The Pagan Motorcycle Club was originally formed as an AMA racing team and custom show bike club by Lou Dobkin in 1963. Born 1/7/1941 in Washington D.C. and after serving as a medic in the U. S. Navy, Lou continued his education as a biochemical technician at NIH in Bethesda, Maryland, until his death in 1989. Two of many articles written about his passion for travel & custom bikes - both Triumph and Harley Davidson's - were published in the November, 1972 Custom Chopper magazine.

Wikipedia isn't about what's true, just about what's verifiable. Mmoyer 18:24, 12 August 2007 (UTC) THIS IS SANDI "DOBKIN"  AGAIN....I HAVE VERIFIED INFORMATION I PREVIOUSLY SUBMITTED AS TO CLUB ORIGINS. WITH MARRIAGE LICENS - DEATH CERTIFICATE - CORRECT NAME FOR LOU - HIS NAVY RECORDS - AND PICTURES....WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO SEND COPPIES FOR PROOF TO WIKIPEDIA? I HAVE EVEN VERIFIED WITH CLUB MEMBERS THIS INFORMATION. THEY AT LEAST APPRECIATE THE TRUTH! AND SOME OF THE ORIGIONAL CLUB IS STILL ALIVE TO VERIFY MY STATEMENTS. START BY SPELLING LOUS NAME CORRECTLY  IT IS 'D O B K I N'   NOT DOBKIN 'S'... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.53.45.244 (talk) 18:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Pagan's Motorcycle Club
My Dad Lil'Joe was sponsor by Lou Dobkins the most intelligent one percenter biker to ever live. I have a picture of Lou Dobkins holding a .38 in his right hand a fighting knife in the other. My dad was a Pagan in the 60's and 70's. The Pagan's were rumored to inventors of the drug P.C.P which was called high test green which turned the small club into one of the big four clubs like the Bandidos, Outlaws, and Hells Angels. The Pagan's are still the strongest brotherhood on the EastCoast even though the F.B.I. and rival clubs try to damage the good name of the Pagan's are even trying to buy member's out. Most Pagan's are ex-military and service men. For example the Great Derek J. Hale who was murdered in cold blood by the Delaware State Police, Derek J. Hale was a Marine that served his country proud like alot of other Pagan's did. If society wont honor and embrace our troops the Pagan's M.C. will. If society wont embrace the poor and needy children of America the Pagan's M.C. will. The Pagan's started out with 13 intelligent brave members in the 50's and 60's in Maryland. The Pagan M.C. should be loved and respected by all people who reside on the EastCoast as they have only did the same for citizens of the EastCoast. Pagan's never die only multiply.--24.35.83.148 (talk) 16:04, 9 May 2008 (UTC)Joe Clark

This is more legend than reality
This article is more legend than fact. It is troubling that the legend is more verifiable than the reality. I am working on the real history and I am happy to get the real story from original members. (links redacted) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.79.171.174 (talk) 02:38, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is based around reliable sources; feel free to contribute here with good citations. tedder (talk) 02:48, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 05:20, 17 April 2011 (UTC) Graeme Bartlett (talk) 05:20, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Pagan& → Pagans Motorcycle Club — An editor made a good faith move from original name. Although the club patches do read "Pagan's", the name used by virtually every source is "Pagans". Pagan's Motorcycle Club would be the motorcycle club belonging to Pagan, not the motorcycle club composed of people who are pagans. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:30, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:

 * Comment The naming convention for trademarks says they should be changed to standard English unless the majority of sources use the unconventional form. Some sources use Pagan's with the apostrophe, but most correct it. However, this isn't a case of using an unpronounceable symbol like Se7en, Alien3, or Toys Я Us (see MOS:TM). Keeping the apostrophe is informative to the reader; it shows one of the ways the gang flout convention. I wouldn't want to add an apostrophe to change Hells Angels to Hell's Angels either, because it's over-correction. The official Hells Angels equivocation that "there are many hells" is nonsense -- the truth is their grasp of English grammar just wasn't that good, and they don't care to fix it. Fixing these minor punctuation errors would be like correcting the spelling and grammar of Boyz II Men to say Boys To Men, or changing the The Beatles to The Beetles.So I'm pretty sure policy suggests we should remove the apostrophe, but it doesn't strictly demand it as with Toys Я Us, and so I kind of think we should leave it as Pagan's. --Dbratland (talk) 19:22, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not suggesting that we remove the apostrophe because it may be incorrect, I am suggesting that despite the club patches, this outlaw motorcycle gang is commonly known as the Pagans (with no apostrophe). As an example, this book by a former chapter president uses no apostrophe. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 19:55, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, you are correct: the great majority of sources remove the apostrophe, and policy says that we should go along with that. But I think it's probably also within the bounds of policy to use the name the way they style it, so I don't have strong feelings either way. --Dbratland (talk) 20:20, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose The move was made following an inquiry to OTRS, where one of the members stated that Pagans was incorrect, as the image on the page clearly demonstrates. Furthermore, I left a redirect from Pagans to Pagan's, so there's no harm in having the page titled correctly. An encyclopedia should be concerned with presenting correct information, not supporting incorrect conventions, however common the may be. Asav (talk) 14:23, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
 * As I pointed out above, this book by a former chapter president uses no apostrophe. Sending an email to OTRS does not magically make the sender a reliable source. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:12, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Obvously not. OTRS ignores a great many requests of this nature, so this was simply FYI. When an OTRS member makes edits, it's done as an editor just like any other. In this case, it's simply because it's the correct title, as I've stated above. So if you have any objections to the move, please address the points I made above. Asav (talk) 05:43, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Other than asserting that your opinion is correct, you have not made any points that I can refute. We agree that the spelling on the patch is "Pagan's" - that is not in dispute nor does it have any bearing on the spelling of the gang's name in other circumstances. Although both forms of the name are used in books and news articles, I believe that the apostrophe-less version is far more common. The example of a club member preferring "Pagans" over "Pagan's" in their book negates your single email to OTRS. Perhaps you could restate your points for me? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 01:20, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Sure: Pagan's is the correct name, as is clearly demonstrated by the patches the gang itself hands out to its members, so it's a verifiable fact. I left a redirect from Pagans, so it's not going to cause any problems for a user looking for the club. Asav (talk) 07:29, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Why does the patch "clearly demonstrate" that the name of the group is "Pagan's". To me, it equally clearly demonstrates that the jacket belongs to a member of the club "Pagans".  That is, the group is the Pagans, one of whom is a Pagan and the jacket is a Pagan's jacket.  All you're showing is that there are at least two people in the world who don't know how to use an apostrophe.120.19.116.42 (talk) 06:05, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * If you do an image search, you'll find that all patches (and tattoos) have the spelling Pagan's, so this is the rule, not the exception. Asav (talk) 07:59, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, although the patches do say "Pagan's", the name of the club is commonly written as "Pagans" including by club members in at least one published book (as opposed to someone asserting membership in an email OTRS). I'm not sure why you find it hard to understand that the two may be different. Think of the patch more as a logo rather than a literal word. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:39, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

 * What is the collective form of "Pagan's"? Is it Pagan's', Pagan's's or Pagan''s? --Bridge Boy (talk) 18:27, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Why the apostrophe?
All this discussion over its presence in the title, with nothing about the history? Are there any references anywhere that mention how the apostrophe originally got on the patch, or why it remains there? —Darxus (talk) 20:35, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Only thing I've been able to find so far, apparently from a member:
 * - http://books.google.com/books?id=TKp8H1RMQSoC&q=apostrophe (Prodigal Father, Pagan Son: Growing Up Inside the Dangerous World of the Pagans Motorcycle Club) —Darxus (talk) 21:09, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

 * The story I read was that it was a one fingered salute to the Hells Angels who, in an equally grammatically incorrect manner, miss out their apostrophe (i.e. Hell's Angels instead of meaning Angels of Hells at present). I don't remember where that quote came from but, given the enmity between the two, it seems a likely explanation.

 * What is the truth re the "Nazi and white supremacist badges on the front"? Do the cops just mean swastikas and the double-sig rune sign?

 * I don't know about the Pagan's but in general, within the biking world, I would argue those things don't mean the same thing, e.g. I've seen black or ethnic minority bikers wearing them, just as I have seen them wearing Confederate flags. --Bridge Boy (talk) 18:23, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

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lead hells angels residence
8 mentha pl canberra act australia 109 dixon dr duffy canberra act australia Please dont hurt the dear pussycats — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.96.124.213 (talk) 20:19, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

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For God's sake
Doesn't anyone on wikipedia know how to write English? What a pile of garbage. Please, go to school. Learn something. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.132.224.66 (talk) 02:10, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:52, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Pagans mc patch.jpg

title: Talk:Pagan's Motorcycle Club


text:
Ron Stevens

Ronald Gordon "Ron" Stevens (September 17, 1949 – May 13, 2014) was a Canadian politician. He was a member of the Legislative Assembly of Alberta representing the constituency of Calgary-Glenmore as a Progressive Conservative until his resignation on May 15, 2009. He was subsequently appointed a Judge of the Court of Queen's Bench of Alberta on May 20, 2009, by the government of Canada.

Early life
Stevens was born September 17, 1949, in Empress, Alberta. He graduated from the University of Calgary in 1971 with a Bachelor of Arts degree in political science and went on to obtain a Bachelor of Laws degree in 1975 from the University of Alberta. Before being elected to the Legislative Assembly of Alberta, Stevens worked as a civil litigation lawyer and mediator with a major law firm in Calgary. In 1996, he was appointed Queen's Council.

An active community member, Stevens served in the role of president of the Palliser Bayview Pumphill Community Association, director of the Community Mediation Calgary Society, director of the Federation of Calgary Communities, and director and vice chair of the Calgary Housing Authority.

Political career
Stevens first sought public office in the 1997 provincial election in the constituency of Calgary-Glenmore. In that election, he received 58% of the vote. In the 2001 provincial election that followed, Stevens was re-elected with 68% of the popular vote. That same year, he was appointed by Premier Ralph Klein as Minister of Gaming and was responsible for the Alberta Gaming and Liquor Commission and the Alberta Lottery Fund. Following the 2004 provincial election, where he received 50% of the vote, Stevens was sworn in as Minister of Justice and Attorney General. On June 27, 2007, he was named Alberta's Deputy Premier by newly elected Premier Ed Stelmach. In the 2008 provincial election, Stevens was elected for a fourth time receiving 51% of the vote. On March 12, 2008, he was sworn in as Minister of International and Intergovernmental Relations.

Stevens served in a variety of capacities on numerous boards and committees. He held the title of Deputy Government House Leader, the position of chair for the Legislative Review Committee, the Oil Sands Ministerial Strategy Committee (Radke Report), the Health Information Legislation Committee, the Standing Policy Committee on Learning, the Private Schools Funding Task Force, the Non-Profit Tax Exemption Review Committee, the position of vice chair of the Agenda and Priorities Committee and the Standing Policy Committee on Justice and Government Services, and the position of deputy chair of the Select Special Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act Review Committee.

Stevens also served as a member of the Treasury Board, the Agenda and Priorities Committee, and the Privileges and Elections, Standing Orders and Printing Committee.

As an MLA, Stevens successfully sponsored two governmental bills: the Holocaust Memorial Day and Genocide Remembrance Act and the Irrigation Districts Act. He also sponsored one private member's bill during his first term in office: the Emblems of Alberta (Alberta Dress Tartan) Amendment Act, 2000.

Hawaiian Stopover Controversy
In October 2007, CBC News Calgary reported that Ron Stevens had used his government credit card to pay for drinks and meals for his wife and four other people while on a stopover in Hawaii in 2003. At the time, Stevens was serving as Alberta's Gaming Minister. His three-day Hawaiian stopover occurred as he was returning from Australia where he had been studying that country's gaming system. "I don't recall whether it was a three-day stop or not," Stevens told CBC when questioned about the trip. "But I do recall that we did it in that fashion because it was less expensive than flying business class. In other words, it was the most [economical] way of doing it."

Personal life
Stevens was married to Phyllis. The couple had two children together. He died of natural causes on May 13, 2014, at the age of 64.

title: Ron Stevens


text:
Talk:Leg press

Pat Robertson
Although Pat Robertson's 2000 pound leg press is impressive, I don't think it is a record, nor do I think it deserves its own section. Ronnie Coleman has videos of him pressing 2250 pounds. I don't know what the source of that 1300 pound "record" is, but I don't think it's an actual record. I can leg press 1000 pounds over ten times in a row and I am not an athlete or professional powerlifter. I know a person who can leg press over 1600 lb. I think I will eliminate the section and replace it with another section on the magnitude of a leg press.Alex Klotz 23:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

 * Pat Robertson is 76 years old and his claim to be pressing 2000 lbs is part of the promo for his energy drink. It is, in other words, highly suspect.  The video he has realized only purports to show him pressing 1000 lbs.  I think it should be included as a noteworthy episode, but not as any kind of established record.  Ethan Mitchell 01:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Pat Robertson is full of shit. I watched a video of him "Leg Pressing" around 900 lbs and he barely moves the sled an inch and uses both of his arms to push the weight up and down. He cheats AND doesn't go anywhere close to the full range of motion.

UberGod

Good critique of the Robertson claim here: http://www.slate.com/id/2142567/   —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rosetta1207 (talk • contribs) 12:44, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Image
I think we need to remove the pictures of this cow and replace them with something that someone could actually stand to look at. I also noticed that this person is used for almost every other weight training part...meaning I think someone added their own fat ass in just for publicity. Hmm_sprinkles 10:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

No doubt man, no doubt. Someone please remove this cow.

UberGod

 * That's great. The image is uploaded under the GNU license and is therefore just about the most valuable image we can get.  If you've got better images, upload them and quit complaining.  WLU 11:24, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Range of Motion
It must be mentioned that the true leg press is performed to a knee dorsiflexion angle of 90 degrees or slightly less. Claims of much higher weights at lower ranges of motion, assisted by compression fabrics, or involving the use of hands on the knees, are generally invalid. There should be a separate treatment for comparative gains in muscle-mass, strength, power, and endurance using limited range of motion. I have only moderate difficulty lifting 1100 pounds (over 4.5 times my bodyweight) with a single leg provided this lift occurs in the strongest range of the exercise and it has been shown historically that supports in excess of ten times the bodyweight are achievable with both legs. In this light Pat Robertson is unlikely to have "lifted" 2000 pounds, but it is not impossible. Another important consideration is the increased likelihood of injury when exceeding the normal tissue limits of elasticity in full range exercises. Because the torque applied across the knees increases greatly at the lowest point of the lift, minor and serious injuries are more frequent with full range exercises. Finally, one should note that blood pressure spikes during maximal intensity lifts can be dangerous, and training in limited range requires longer recovery periods. Caution is therefore indicated as with any other training regimen. 98.70.40.183 (talk) 20:14, 25 August 2011 (UTC)Paul Wagner

There can't be a single "true" or "valid" range of motion because the leg press is not a contested lift in any sport. 75.180.19.64 (talk) 20:13, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Technology and Culture
— Assignment last updated by Thecanyon (talk) 05:32, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Leg press


text:
Gigapixel image

A gigapixel image is a digital image bitmap composed of one billion (109) pixels (picture elements), 1000 times the information captured by a 1 megapixel digital camera. A square image of 31,623 pixels in width and height is one gigapixel. Current technology for creating such very high-resolution images usually involves either making digital image mosaics of many high-resolution digital photographs or using a film negative as large as 12" × 9" (30 cm × 23 cm) up to 18" × 9" (46 cm × 23 cm), which is then scanned with a high-end large-format film scanner with at least 3000 dpi resolution. Only a few cameras are capable of creating a gigapixel image in a single sweep of a scene, such as the Pan-STARRS PS1 and the Gigapxl Camera.

A gigamacro image is a gigapixel image which is a close-up or macro image.

Terapixel
A terapixel image is an image composed of one trillion (1012) pixels. Though currently rare, there have been a few instances such as the Microsoft Research Terapixel project for use on the Fulldome projection system, a composite of medical images by Aperio, and Google Earth's Landsat images viewable as a time-lapse are collectively considered over one terapixel.

In 2015 the 'Terabite', the world's first terapixel macro image, was released by GIGAmacro.

title: Gigapixel image


text:
Armor for Sleep

Armor for Sleep is an American rock band from New Jersey. Their current lineup consists of lead vocalist, guitarist, and songwriter Ben Jorgensen, lead guitarist PJ DeCicco, bassist Anthony DiIonno and drummer Nash Breen.

After initial demos had been distributed, New York–based independent label Equal Vision Records signed the band and went on to release the concept-based albums, Dream to Make Believe (2003) and What to Do When You Are Dead (2005). The following year, the band signed to Sire Records and Warner Bros. and released their last album Smile for Them (2007) before a yearslong hiatus. The band announced their disbandment in October 2009, only reuniting briefly for tours in 2012 and 2015. They officially reunited in 2020 and released a new album in September 2022, The Rain Museum, on Equal Vision Records and Rude Records.

During their recording career, the band has been known for their blend of alternative rock, atmospheric emo, and dream pop.

History
Armor For Sleep was founded by Ben Jorgensen in 2001 in New Jersey. Nash Breen and Peter James "PJ" DeCicco later joined the band after leaving fellow New Jersey band Prevent Falls. Jorgensen stated the name of the band comes from his early experiences of writing music and not being able to sleep. As he recalls, "I guess when I started the band I was kind of, like, retreating in my room and I kind of couldn't really fall asleep, so I started playing music. I just thought of the name Armor for Sleep, because it was really, the music was keeping me from passing out! Which was something I was procrastinating on."

Ben would go on to record a two-song demo containing the songs Dream to Make Believe and Slip Like Space, which would later be re-recorded and released on their first album Dream to Make Believe. Former guitarist Paul Abrahamian went on to form It's Called the Ghost Town Symphony in November 2002. Later that month, Armor for Sleep recorded a three-song demo with producer Dan Coutant; Mark Kenask of Blind Society played drums on the demo.

Armor For Sleep originally signed to Equal Vision Records, where they released their first two albums, Dream to Make Believe in 2003 and What to Do When You Are Dead in 2005. The band signed to Warner Brothers/Sire Records in 2006, explaining it was "time for a change".

A Machine Shop remix of their track "Remember to Feel Real" was featured on the Snakes on a Plane soundtrack in August 2006. The next year, the band debuted a new track entitled "End of the World" on the soundtrack for the 2007 film Transformers. This song would later appear on their next record, but with various changes, including the reduction in vocal effects and keyboards.

Armor For Sleep released their third full-length album Smile for Them on October 30, 2007.

On August 20, 2008, the band announced an extended play (EP), entitled The Way Out Is Broken.

Disbandments and reunions
On October 28, 2009, it was officially announced that the band would be parting ways. Frontman Ben Jorgensen released a statement informing fans of the inevitable, after the band had been inactive, not undertaking a tour for over a year.

The band regrouped to play the 2012 Bamboozle Festival in New Jersey, releasing the following statement:

"We have no motivation for doing this other than to get up on stage and say goodbye properly to the people out there who never got the opportunity to see us one last time. Like Sam Beckett in Quantum Leap we will strive to "put right what once went wrong"...and then just like him we will poof out of existence. But for good this time- we promise."

At the Bamboozle Festival, and on the band's Facebook page, Jorgensen announced that three more shows would be played: July 14, 2012, at Irving Plaza in New York City, July 20, 2012, at The Glass House in Pomona, California, and July 22, 2012, at the House of Blues in Chicago, Illinois.

On July 20, 2015, the band announced an eight city tour to celebrate the 10th anniversary of What To Do When You Are Dead.

Post-disbandment projects
In January 2009, Abrahamian formed the band 1984.

After the group parted ways, Ben Jorgensen briefly started an electronic project called God Loves a Challenge alongside Sierra Shardae and also embarked on a brief solo career, releasing the EP There Is Nowhere Left to Go in 2010.

PJ DeCicco moved on to playing in Love Automatic with former Senses Fail bassist Mike Glita. The band is no longer active.

Nash Breen was playing with New York Rivals, but has since joined the Cold Seas, who opened for Armor for Sleep on select dates of their What to Do When You Are Dead 10th anniversary tour in 2015 as well as the 15th anniversary tour of the aforementioned album in 2021. As of 2022, Breen remains active with both Armor for Sleep and the Cold Seas.

Return and fourth studio album
On February 24, 2020, the band announced on Facebook that they would be reuniting for a summer tour including nineteen US cities to celebrate the 15th anniversary of What to Do When You Are Dead. The tour was later postponed due to the COVID-19 pandemic, and on August 13, 2020, the band announced the new tour dates for 2021. In July 2022, the band announced a new album, The Rain Museum, which was released on September 9, 2022.

In the summer of 2022, Armor for Sleep performed on select dates of the Hello Gone Days tour, co-headlined by Dashboard Confessional and Andrew McMahon in the Wilderness.

In the spring of 2023, the band co-headlined the Pitch Black Forever tour with Hawthorne Heights.

In the fall of 2023, the band went on tour to celebrate the 20th anniversary of their debut album, Dream to Make Believe. The tour kicked off on October 19, 2023 at Mulcahy's Pub and Concert Hall in Wantagh, New York and the band were joined on tour by the Early November (who were celebrating the 20th anniversary of their debut album, The Room's Too Cold) and the Spill Canvas.

In February 2024 the band performed on the 2024 Emo's Not Dead Cruise, which was headlined by Yellowcard.

On July 18, 2024 the band released a new single, "In Another Dream".

Line-up

 * Ben Jorgensen – lead vocals, rhythm guitar, piano
 * PJ DeCicco – lead guitar
 * Anthony DiIonno – bass, backing vocals
 * Nash Breen – drums, percussion

Touring Members

 * Nate Novarro (Cobra Starship) – drums, percussion

Discography
Studio albums
 * Dream to Make Believe (2003)
 * What to Do When You Are Dead (2005)
 * Smile for Them (2007)
 * The Rain Museum (2022)

title: Armor for Sleep


text:
Talk:Stony Brook, New York

Untitled
EB says: unincorporated village in Brookhaven town (township), Suffolk county, southeastern New York, U.S. Located on the northern shore of Long Island, on Stony Brook Harbor, it was settled by Boston colonists in 1655. In the 19th century the shipbuilding industry flourished there. --JimWae 04:37, 2004 Dec 11 (UTC)

EB is wrong. There are no "unincorporated villages" in N.Y. The best we can do is to call it a hamlet. Village is misleading and plain wrong. Nelson Ricardo 05:02, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)

Stan Lee? No idea, cite it please? Zipmcoccup 22:45, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Problem is, the RESIDENTS and LOCAL BUSINESS PEOPLE have long, long called it a "village." Three times they tried to incorporate it as such! But the Big Powerful Men in Albany say it is not a village. So who ya gonna follow? Are you a populist or an elitist? Dr.Bastedo (talk) 08:09, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

title: Talk:Stony Brook, New York


text:
Talk:Dante (Devil May Cry)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 February 2019
The mocap for dante was always reuben langdon since Devil May Cry 3. What this site shown was the model for dante in devil May cry 5, not the actually mocap who is reuben langdon. This video shows the behind the scenes on one of the cutscenes showing the mocap process https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVidIs7yEO8 Truat504 (talk) 23:06, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DannyS712 (talk) 00:39, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

 * I think he means that while Adam Cowie served as the model for Dante's face in DMC5, Langdon is still in charge of the motion capture. Then again, he would need to provide a source for this.Tintor2 (talk) 00:46, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Minor edit request on 21 February 2019
This is a day late, but i have found footage of the mocap process with Reuben Langdon as dante in Devil May Cry 5 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVidIs7yEO8. This is a minor edit but it will great if you edit this by changing the motion capture for dante to be Reuben Langdon, because he's been doing motion capture since devil May cry 3. This actor you put is Adam Covie who is the model for dante in the game. Thank you very much if you edit this. Truat504 (talk) 20:16, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

 * While it's true, can we post links to Yellow Motion's Youtube account?Tintor2 (talk) 22:47, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: User created YT videos are generally not considered reliable sources. However the video does mention that extras that come with the deluxe version of DMC5 has footage that would be considered reliable sources. I would recommend waiting for the game to be released and either checking out this extra or the end game credits which should have the info needed. Also worth noting the infobox says Langdon did motion capture.    Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    17:01, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 March 2019
He was also voted as the twenty eighth-best video game character of all time in the Guinness World Records Gamer's Edition 2011. 178.120.12.42 (talk) 21:11, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

 * We need a reliable source to back that information per wp:verifiability. I'll add the it if I can find the source.Tintor2 (talk) 22:16, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. DannyS712 (talk) 07:57, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 March 2019
65.26.62.97 (talk) 16:58, 25 March 2019 (UTC) I would like to make just a small change on this page is all
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. aboideautalk 17:21, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Image for Dante
The collection of Dante's first four incarnations happened to be a fanmade wallpaper so it cannot be used in Wikipedia. If anybody wants to change the infobox to his more iconic DMC1 look, I guess we should discuss it here to avoid any edit war. There is no proper guideline for the image but I only wonder if anybody wants to use a DMC1 image, would the anime incarnation be used since he is easier to recognize than the 3D looks of DMC1 that tend to cover his face? Tintor2 (talk) 03:25, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

title: Talk:Dante (Devil May Cry)


text:
Aaron Aguilera

Aaron Aguilera (born February 28, 1977) is an American professional wrestler and actor best known as Jesús and Uno on World Wrestling Entertainment (WWE), MTV's Wrestling Society X, All Japan Pro Wrestling as Zodiac and Lucha Libre USA as Lujo Esquire.

World Wrestling Federation/Entertainment (2000, 2004–2005, 2007)
Aguilera initially appeared in the World Wrestling Federation with Christopher Daniels as Uno, one half of Los Conquistadores during the time Edge & Christian were masquerading as the team. He was rehired nearly 4 years later to perform under the gimmick of Jesús. As part of a kayfabe storyline, Jesús was accused of stabbing John Cena at a Boston, Massachusetts nightclub by order of Carlito Caribbean Cool. After Cena defeated Carlito for the WWE United States Championship, Jesús attacked Cena several times in the next couple of weeks, finally hitting him in the kidney with Cena's own chain, temporarily sidelining him. In reality, Cena required a break from WWE while he was out of the country filming The Marine.

Aguilera faced John Cena in a Street Fight at Armageddon 2004 for the WWE United States Championship, but was defeated. Due to an injury sustained at a house show in Johnson City, Tennessee, he went into the match with a torn groin and two herniated discs in his back, and left to have surgery immediately afterwards. The surgery was successful. Aguilera was released from his WWE contract on April 12, 2005.

Aaron later returned to WWE on a one time deal, wrestling under his real name on the November 11, 2007 episode of WWE Heat in a losing effort against Ron Simmons.

Independent circuit
As the Hardcore Kidd, Aguilera appeared in Ultimate Pro Wrestling, marking his first wrestling match since being released by WWE. On August 6, 2005, Aguilera started appearing in the Pro Wrestling Guerrilla (PWG) promotion, first losing to T. J. Perkins (aka Puma), and then on the August 19, 2005 teaming with Davey Richards to defeat Perkins and Alex Shelley. On September 30, 2005, Aguilera lost to his former tag team partner Christopher Daniels at Adrenaline Unleashed. On October 22, 2005, Aguilera appeared at AWS, teaming with Al Katrazz to defeat Davey Richards and Tony Kozina. Then, on November 19, 2005, with the PWG, Aguilera teamed with Petey Williams, losing to Frankie Kazarian and Chris Sabin. On November 26, 2005, Aguilera wrestled Babi Slymm to a no-contest. Then at the January 15, 2006 Pro Wrestling WAR show, Aguilera wrestled Charles Mercury to a no-contest. Then in the main event, Aguilera & Keiji Sakoda wrestled Teddy Hart and Jack Evans to a double countout. Afterwards, Hart did a moonsault off a basketball hoop and injured his knee. Aguilera made an appearance at AWS at Frank and Sons on May 20, 2006, and picked up a win against Adam Pearce after hitting Pearce in the head with a boot that he took from Pearce's manager, C. Edward Vander Pyle. Aguilera challenged Pearce and Vander Pyle to a tag team match on July 8, 2006, with his manager, El Jefe.

On February 4, 2006, Aguilera made his Florida wrestling debut with Nick Mayberry's Hardkore Championship Wrestling, at the 2006 HCW Incredible 8 Tournament. He defeated former WCW enhancement talent Casey Thompson in the opening round, second-generation wrestler "J-Dawg" Jeff Brooks in the second round, and then "The King of The Indies" Reckless Youth in the final round of the tournament. He became the 4th person ever to win an Incredible 8 Tournament, behind Shark Boy, Reckless Youth, and Dagon Briggs.

In March 2007, Aguilera officially made a challenge for the NWA World Heavyweight Championship and appeared in the Reclaiming the Glory tournament, falling to longtime rival Adam Pearce in the first round. He has also appeared briefly in the IWA in Puerto Rico.

Aaron 'Jesus' Aguilera was part of the team Los Pochos Guapos with Kaos. The team main evented in the third episode of WSX, in a Tables, Ladders and Cervezas match ending their feud with Luke Hawx and Alkatrazz. Los Pochos Guapos, on a losing streak, got their first win over the team of Teddy Hart and Matt Cross, known as the Filth and the Fury. They then began a feud with The Cartel and participated in the Season Finale episode of WSX facing The Cartel in a Piranha Deathmatch.

In June 2011, Aaron Aguilera was announced as a team captain for the AWW pilot tapings, under the name Awesome Aaron Aguilera. At the pilot tapings on June 29, Aguilera, who was under the nickname "The Human Cyclone", defeated Schwagg Dutt in a five-minute Iron Man match. Later on the same tapings, Aguilera lost to Dutt in an Ultimate X match, which also included RPM and Dubai.

All Japan Pro Wrestling (2007–2012)
On October 18, 2007, Aguilera debuted for All Japan Pro Wrestling under a mask as Zodiac, becoming a member of the heel stable Voodoo Murders. He teamed with Taru (stylized in all capital letters) in the 2007 World's Strongest Tag Determination League, but the team purposely picked up no victories due to being disqualified in every single one of their matches. On May 25, 2008, Zodiac lost a Hair vs. Mask match to Joe Doering and was forced to unmask. After refusing to cheat in a match, he went on to defeat Taru in a match. After that match, Satoshi Kojima offered Zodiac a spot in his F4 stable, which he accepted and turned face in the process.

His last match for All Japan took place on September 23, 2012, as he teamed with Joe Doering in a losing effort against the AJPW World Tag Team champions Manabu Soya & Takao Omori.

Wrestle-1 (2013)
On September 8, 2013, Aguilera, using his Zodiac gimmick, made a surprise appearance at the All Japan splinter promotion Wrestle-1's inaugural event, teaming with René Duprée in a main event tag team match, where the two were defeated by Bob Sapp and Keiji Mutoh.

Media appearances
Aguilera appeared on an episode of the American version of Faking It. The story behind the episode he was in was a New York City lawyer having to fake being a professional wrestler, and Aguilera was his trainer. Aguilera also appeared in Carlos Mencia's sketch comedy series, Mind of Mencia, as a stereotypical Hispanic abusive boyfriend. Aguilera appeared in the episode of CSI: Crime Scene Investigation, "Mascara," as a masked wrestler going under the name of Fantasmo. He also had a minor part as a criminal "The Shadowhammer" in the iCarly episode "iSam's Mom".

Aguilera fought in a Mixed Martial Arts match in Hawaii, where he lost to Eric "Butterbean" Esch. Thus far, it is his only professional MMA fight.

He appeared on Trick My Trucker as a trainer. He has also appeared on an episode of the ABC reboot of the Card Sharks game show. He also appeared as El' Matador on an episode of the Night Shift.

Championships and accomplishments

 * All Japan Pro Wrestling
 * January 2 Korakuen Hall Heavyweight Battle Royal Winner (2009)
 * Empire Wrestling Federation
 * EWF Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
 * Ultimate Pro Wrestling
 * UPW Tag Team Championship (3 times) – with Justin Sane (2) and Al Katrazz (1)

title: Aaron Aguilera


text:
User:RenaRF

WELCOME. I'm new to Wikipedia as of December 2004. I happened across it by total random accident and I think it's a fabulous resource. I'll contribute where I can and when I have something worthwhile. :-)

title: User:RenaRF


text:
Free (Negativland album)

Free is the sixth studio album by Negativland. In the wake of leaving SST Records, Negativland revived their self-owned Seeland Records label, signed a distribution deal  with Mordam Records, and released this album. The main topics are about liberty, the media, and what it means to be free. "Free" has found sounds, stories, and songs about a well-known convenience store, torture, the quality of urban life, Cadillacs, firearms, the bible, interstate trucking, geriatric discomfort, big dogs, bicycle safety, alcohol consumption, driving in circles, death, organ buttons, religious dialectics, and the truth about The Star-Spangled Banner.

Track listing

 * 1) "Freedom's Waiting" – 2:21
 * 2) "Cityman" – 5:56
 * 3) "The Gun and the Bible" – 2:48
 * 4) "Truck Stop Drip Drop" – 4:00
 * 5) "The Bottom Line" – 3:25
 * 6) "Crumpled Farm" – 4:23
 * 7) "Happy the Harmonica" – 10:01 (Cover of a piece by Frank Luther )
 * 8) "Pip Digs Pep" – 4:51
 * 9) "We Are Driven" – 7:04
 * 10) "View to the Sun" – 3:58
 * 11) "I Am God" – 5:19
 * 12) "Our National Anthem" – 4:51

title: Free (Negativland album)


text:
MV Selendang Ayu

MV Selendang Ayu,, was a Malaysian-registered Panamax bulk cargo ship chartered by the IMC Group. It ran aground off Unalaska Island in western Alaska's Aleutian Islands on 8 December 2004 after its engine failed. Six crew members died when a rescue helicopter was engulfed by a breaking wave; the ship broke in two, resulting in a large oil spill.

Final voyage
On 28 November 2004, Selendang Ayu left Seattle, Washington, bound for Xiamen, China. On board was a cargo of 60200 tonne of soybeans, along with 1000 tonne of fuel oil. Arrival in China was scheduled for 17 December but the ship was running at reduced speed due to high winds and heavy seas.

After the ship had sailed through Unimak Pass, the ship's engine malfunctioned and was shut down, at around noon on 6 December. At this point, the ship was 46 miles north-west of Bogoslof Island and around 100 miles from Dutch Harbor, the nearest port. The cause of the engine failure was found to be a cracked liner in the no. 3 cylinder and the ship's engineers decided to isolate that cylinder, restart the engine using the five remaining cylinders and sail to Dutch Harbor, where the defective cylinder could be repaired. By 21:00, the no. 3 cylinder had been isolated but the engine could not be restarted. At this time, the wind was Beaufort force 8, from the north-west, and the ship was drifting towards land at about 1.6 knot.

The following morning, it was discovered that four of the engine's cylinders also had cracked piston rings. It was decided to replace the worst of these and make another attempt to restart the engine. By now, the sustained wind speed was around 30 knot and the ship was drifting at 1.8 knot in 15 foot seas.

At 11:00, the US Coast Guard cutter USCGC Alex Haley arrived on scene and was standing by. The no. 6 cylinder head, weighing 3300 lb was removed and lashed to the deck but worsening weather and the ship's roll prevented any more work on the engine for the next 18 hours. Fuel was transferred to inboard tanks to reduce the likelihood of a spill if the ship should run aground. During the afternoon, the ship drifted past Bogoslof Island at a distance of around 3 miles. The ocean-going tug Sidney Foss arrived after sunset at 18:30 and a line was attached. However, with winds now at 45 – and waves of 25 ft, the tug was only able to slow the vessel's drift.

A second tug, James Dunlap was hired from Dutch Harbor, with the intention of attaching it to Selendang Ayu's stern so it could be turned to face into the wind, allowing it to be towed away from Unalaska Island. However, soon after James Dunlap arrived, the tow-line from Sidney Foss parted at 07:30 on 8 December and the weather made it impossible to re-establish the tow. At 11:15, the ship passed into water shallow enough for its anchors to be used. One anchor was dropped and this halted the ship for around an hour, until the wind worsened and the ship began to drift towards the shore again. The starboard anchor could not be lowered as the port anchor had wrapped around the bow of the ship. Alex Haley tried to attach a towline to turn the ship and allow the second anchor to be dropped but this also failed.

Rescue
Two HH-60J Jayhawk helicopters had been sent from Coast Guard Air Station Kodiak to Cold Bay to rescue Selendang Ayu's crew, if necessary. At 14:00 on 8 December, the first of these helicopters began to winch nine of the ship's crew from the deck and, 50 minutes later, began to lower them to the deck of Alex Haley while the second Jayhawk began to pick up nine more crew members and transferred them ashore.

This left seven senior officers and one deck cadet on board the ship, which had now managed to lower its starboard anchor. Work on the engine continued but the ship ran aground at 17:05. One of the Jayhawks returned to evacuate the remaining crew and, by 18:15, only the master and a Coast Guard rescue swimmer were still to be lifted off the ship. A rogue wave broke over the ship's bow and the helicopter was engulfed in spray. Its engines flamed out from water ingestion and the helicopter crashed into the sea and sank. Alex Haley's HH-65B Dolphin was airborne and was able to rescue the three members of the Jayhawk's crew but only one of the seven members of the ship's crew. There was no sign of the remaining six men so the Dolphin took the rescued crew ashore. At 19:15, Selendang Ayu broke in two; the master and the Coast Guard swimmer were safely recovered at 20:35.

The crew of the Dolphin helicopter, CGNR 6513, were later awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for their actions. The Coast Guard searched unsuccessfully for the remaining crew until their efforts were called off on 10 December.

Impact
The ship had been carrying a significant amount of fuel, so there were fears that Selendang Ayu could create the worst Alaskan oil spill since Exxon Valdez. One tank containing 40131 USgal of fuel ruptured when the ship broke apart. It is estimated that 424000 USgal of heavy bunker C fuel oil and 18000 USgal of diesel fuel was on board when she grounded. Ultimately, 350000 USgal of bunker oil and diesel spilled, which is about 2.9% of the volume of crude oil spilled from Exxon Valdez. The crew had transferred the fuel internal tanks when the ship foundered, and heaters were turned off so that the fuel would thicken in the cold waters. However, environmental officials estimate that up to 1.28 million liters of thick fuel oil (338000 USgal) leaked from the freighter.

The carcasses of over 1,600 birds and 6 sea otters were recovered from beaches along the western shore of Unalaska Island after the spill.

title: MV Selendang Ayu


text:
Keith York

Keith York is an English session drummer who has toured throughout the world and worked with a range of bands, including The Lightning Seeds, The Orb, Pitchshifter, Bivouac, Ladytron, and Esoteric, Bentley Rhythm Ace, Broadcast and Love Amongst Ruin. He was a founding member of the 1990s Liverpool-based psychedelic rock band Dr Phibes & the House of Wax Equations along with Howard King, Jr. and Lee Belsham. He is currently playing various jazz gigs and festivals, while recording, touring, and drumming for The Orb.

Studio

 * Dr Phibes & the House of Wax Equations: Whirlpool (album) (1991, 50 Seel Street Records)
 * Dr Phibes & the House of Wax Equations: Hypnotwister (album) (1993, 50 Seel Street Records/Offside Records)
 * Dr Phibes & the House of Wax Equations: Sugarblast (EP) (1991, 50 Seel Street Records)
 * Dr Phibes & the House of Wax Equations: Hazy (EP) (1991, 50 Seel Street Records)
 * Dr Phibes & the House of Wax Equations: Mr Phantasy (EP) (1991, 50 Seel Street Records)
 * Dr Phibes & the House of Wax Equations: Misdiagnosedive (EP) (1992, 50 Seel Street Records)
 * Dr Phibes & the House of Wax Equations: Moment Of Truth / Deadpan Control Freak (1993, 50 Seel Street Records)
 * Dr Phibes & the House of Wax Equations: Seconds Out Round One) (compilation album) (1991, Imaginary Records)
 * Dr Phibes & the House of Wax Equations:  The Dark Side Of The Pool (Various Artists) – (1991 Liquid Noise Records – LIQ 1)
 * Junglebone: live and studio drummer ("Mother Feature", "Grown Tired", "Yellow", "Days Go Bye") (demos)
 * bivouac: Full Sized Boy (album) (1995, Geffen Records)
 * bivouac: Cynic (Monkey Sanctuary) (EP) (1995, Geffen Records)
 * Bentley Rhythm Ace: Bentley Rhythm Ace (album) (1997, Parlophone Records)
 * Pitchshifter: "Genius (Pitchshifter song)" (maxi single) (1997, Geffen Records)
 * Pitchshifter: www.pitchshifter.com (album) (1998, Geffen Records)
 * Pitchshifter: "Un-United Kingdom" (EP) (1999, Geffen Records)
 * Surgeon (musician): Alright(Surgeon's Keith 4 Nat Mix) 1999 (Tresor)
 * Esoteric: Metamorphogenesis (1999, Eibon Records)
 * Ananda Shankar: Walking On (1999, Real World Records)
 * Bentley Rhythm Ace: For Your Ears Only (album)(2000, Parlophone Records)
 * Broadcast: The Noise Made by People (2000, Warp Records)
 * Broadcast: Come On Let's Go (7", Single) (2000, Warp Records)
 * Broadcast: Extended Play (2000, Warp Records)
 * Broadcast: Extended Play Two (2000, Warp Records)
 * Broadcast, "Drums on Fire" (non-album single) (2000, Warp Records)
 * Submarine: Skin Diving (album 2000 Kinetic/Reprise Records)
 * Gramophone: Gramophone (2001 Artisan Records)
 * Broadcast: Haha Sound (album) (2003, Warp Records)
 * Ladytron: "Oops (Oh My)" (single) (2003, Emperor Norton Records)
 * Esoteric: Subconscious Dissolution into the Continuum (album) (2004, Season of Mist)
 * Ladytron: Witching Hour (album) (2005, Island Records)
 * Ladytron: The Harmonium Sessions (EP) (2006, website release)
 * Love Amongst Ruin: (album track: "Come on Say It") Love Amongst Ruin (album) (2010, Ancient B Records)
 * Various Artists – Real World 25: Classic Tracks & Hidden Gems - 25 Years Of Musical Discovery (2014, Real World Records)
 * Love Amongst Ruin: (album track: "Oh God") (uncredited drums) Lose Your Way (album) (2015, Ancient B Records)
 * bivouac "Deep Blue Sea Surround" (uncredited drums) (single) (2016), Reckless Yes
 * Various Artists – Still in a Dream – A Story of Shoegaze 1988–1995 (album) (2017, Cherry Red records)
 * Broadcast: Maida Vale Sessions (2022, Warp Records)

Touring

 * Dr Phibes & the House of Wax Equations (1990–1994)
 * bivouac (1994–1996)
 * The Lightning Seeds (1997–1998)
 * Ananda Shankar (1999–2000)
 * Broadcast (1999–2002)
 * Bentley Rhythm Ace (2000–2002)
 * Ladytron (2002–2007)
 * The Seers (feat. Paul "Bonehead" Arthurs (Oasis)) (2003)
 * The Orb (2007–2009)
 * Love Amongst Ruin (2010–2011)

Employment
He worked as a music lecturer at Halesowen College, Halesowen, West Midlands in 'music performance' and 'music industry' subjects, now working as main drum instructor at York Music, Studley, Warwickshire.

title: Keith York


text:
Coat of arms of Queensland

The coat of arms of Queensland is one of the formal symbols of the Australian state of Queensland and represents the King's constitutional authority throughout the state. It is the oldest of the state arms of Australia, having been granted in 1893 by Queen Victoria, through the simplest heraldic grants of only the shield of arms, motto, helmet, mantling and crest. In 1977, the red deer and the brolga were assigned as supporters by Queen Elizabeth II during her Silver Jubilee.

History
The original coat of arms were designed by Sir Albert Woods, Garter King of Arms (head) of the Heralds College. He created four different designs (produced below) which were sent to the Chief Secretary and Premier of Queensland, Sir Samuel Griffith who selected the design that Woods favoured. In order to ensure secrecy, the choice of arms was communicated by telegraph to London using the respective code words, "Halfpay", "Halfprice", "Iceblink" and "Icebound".

In 1963 the heraldic depiction of the British Imperial Crown was switched to a depiction of St Edward's Crown.

The final and current addition to the coat of arms was created in 1977, the Silver Jubilee of Queen Elizabeth II, with the granting of the red deer and brolga as supporting animals. The deer represents the old world and it is a classic animal of heraldry while the brolga represents the native population and is also the state's official bird.

Heraldic description
The blazon of the coat of arms is:

"For arms, per fesse the Chief Or, the Base per pale Sable and Gules, in Chief a Bull’s head caboshed in profile muzzled a Merino Ram’s head respecting each other proper, the dexter Base harged with a Garb also Or and the sinister Base on a Mount a Pile of Quartz issuant therefrom a Gold Pyramid in front of the Mount a Spade surmounted by a Pick saltirewise all proper.

And for the crest, on a wreath of the Colours, a Mount thereon a Maltese Cross Azure surmounted with a Royal Crown between 2 sugar-canes all proper.

And for the Supporters, on the dexter side a Red Deer and on the sinister side a Brolga wings elevated and addorsed both proper, below on a scroll this motto, 'Audax at Fidelis'."

Modernised, this means:

"Across the top of the shield a gold panel on which there is a bull's head in profile muzzled, cut off at the neck and a merino ram's head, facing each other, both naturally coloured. In the lower portion of the shield on the left hand side on the black background a golden sheaf of wheat; on the right side on a red background and on a green mound, a golden obelisk standing on a pile of quartz with a crossed pick and shovel in the foreground."

Industrial influence
The symbols on the shield represent what Queensland's largest industries at the time the arms were designed. The wheat industry's origins belong with the first settlers in 1788, as the farms were worked by the convicts brought over from England, an idea of Governor Phillip. During the years till 1795, the wheat industry slowly gained popularity and by the late 19th century was a strong force in the agricultural industry of the state. The sugar industry became established by 1868 in Mackay which was a mere four years after the first commercial sugar mill was opened in Cleveland, south of Brisbane. Sugar and Coffee regulations were brought in by Parliament later that year as the industry spread rapidly and with the creation of the Mackay Central Sugar Mill Manufacturing Company ten years later in 1878, the sugar industry had reached its colonial peak.

The sheep industry had been in existence since the early 1820s within Australia and by the early 1880s the geographical expansion of this industry had hit Queensland in which major wool auctions were held throughout the state. The mining industry began with the discovery of copper on 20 May 1867 by Ernest Henry in Cloncurry and the industry climbed with the Gold Rush which occurred on 3 September 1873 when gold was discovered in Georgetown. The beef industry was quite prevalent by the late 1880s and by 1890, Queensland had exported Australia's first major export overseas which consisted of 1500 tons and by the 20th century that number had exploded to 43,000 tons.

Supporting animals
The brolga is one of Australia's two native crane species and the only one solely found in Australia. They stand 1 m tall with a wing-span of up to 2.4 m. They are generally grey and are known for their distinctive energetic mating dance as well as their loud trumpeting garooo call. They are mostly found along the coast from Rockhampton to the Gulf of Carpentaria. They became the official bird emblem of Queensland in January 1986.

The red deer is a traditional beast of heraldry and was introduced into Queensland from the royal herds near London. Despite their position on the coat of arms, deer are a declared feral pest in Queensland with it being illegal to distribute, trade, release into the environment, move or feed any deer under the Biosecurity Act 2014.

Maltese Cross
The Maltese cross has a stranger history than the rest of the elements upon the arms. The Maltese Cross with a superimposed crown was sourced from the state badge, however it is not known how this badge was designed. One popular theory is that Queensland sought to associate itself with the newly issued Victoria Cross (which contains a Maltese Cross with the royal arms and a lion superimposed), first bestowed to Crimean War soldiers by Queen Victoria in 1857, a few years before Queensland became a separate colony in 1859. Another theory is that there was a connection between the Maltese Cross and Lady Bowen, wife of the first governor Sir George Bowen. Given that the Maltese Cross was not adopted until 1876, many years after the governor and his wife left in 1868, the former theory appears stronger.

Gallery
Below is a visual evolution of Queensland's coat of arms.

title: Coat of arms of Queensland


text:
Talk:Matthew McGrory

Diagnosis
To answer an unanswered question in the archive here, when asked about his condition, Matt says: "Oh ya know, I did the testing, up until about a year ago, to find out what was up and..." Then he shrugs. The question starts at 0:45 on this youtube video on Maury Povich's official YouTube page. I'm not sure if that's enough to put on the page or not, so I'll leave it up for consensus. Kire1975 (talk) 00:44, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

title: Talk:Matthew McGrory