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User talk:T3gah

Auf Wiedersehen WIKIPEDIA

A total waste of my time.

"From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia." Free? Yes free for us, the world, to add content and then you, the insiders, to make it the way YOU want and delete the rest. Of course you wait until someone else does whatever. ugh. Hours wasted.

I'm going to stop telling my friends about this place.

I didn't even get a chance to add my content to List of religious forums before some bozo comes along and says "let's vote over the deletion of the page" because they didn't have the temarity to send me a message first.

unbelievable

t3gah 07:36, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * It might have been imprudent to add a link to the article in a couple dozen other articles before you had put any real content in it. Incidentally, you might like to read policy and the article on Consensus decision-making. — Saxifrage | ☎ 09:27, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

There is no policy that the author of a new page is contacted before it is put up for deletion. You point your finger at "the insiders" (you mean a cabal). Those insiders are people like you and me. I understand your emotions, and it is logical to defend your work, but the "free" of Wikipedia does not mean that all content can be added at will. Do not feel put off - nobody wants you to leave. I suggest you review articles that you know something about and make some corrections or improvements. JFW | T@lk  14:21, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * uNF

G'day

I'm sorry you have found Wikipedia disappointing, but there is no way we can accomodate your demands.

Frankly, I don't think you have been at all fair to us. Wikipedia and its policies represent a great deal of work by a large number of volunteers. We find it an exciting project.

But I understand your hurt at having the VfD notice turn up, because I have been there. One of my first articles was a substub on an author about whom I was not remotely interested, but who sold over 8 million children's books back in the 1950s, was barely mentioned on the WWW and was clearly notable. Just the thing for Wikipedia! But I didn't know the correct form for a stub (I was new remember), and an admin vandalised the article (I guess he thought it funny). When I reverted his facetious comment, he just put it back, and told me that I was lucky he hadn't deleted the article without discussion (which he was entitled to do under the policy then, and still would be). When I protested about this treatment, I was told by another even more experienced and well-connected admin that I was complaining about nothing. AFAIK no criticism was ever levelled about an experienced admin twice vandalising a newbie's article, although I did receive a muted apology. (So please, fellow admins, don't dismiss the cabal charge too lightly, we do act in this way and I have seen it.)

But we are open to suggestions. We have as policies an assumption that newcomers edit in good faith, a principle of tolerance of their mistakes, and a prohibition on personal attacks. In my opinion you have had the benefit of these policies.

If ever you wish to become involved in the project, please feel free to contact me either on my talk page or by email. Many other volunteers will also be happy to talk to you. But be warned, we will expect you to do some reading and to give our existing policies and practices a fair hearing before we are likely to find your advice on changing them of any use.

I agree completely that it would have been good to contact you before proposing an article you had created for deletion. It is not current policy, but there's nothing stopping anyone doing it either, and many of us do. Some of us also feel that articles like this are listed too quickly. If you do become involved you can help to improve policies in these directions. (It's hard work.)

But the advice above is good too IMO. The best way to become involved is to contribute. Find something a little less controversial. Browse some articles on subjects you know about, and improve them. Read and try to understand what Wikipedia is not before starting any more new articles.

As to what you tell your friends and others about Wikipedia, that is up to you. But another word of caution. Wikipedia has an enviable and growing reputation, and if it fails to live up to this at times it's not for lack of effort on our part. The comments you have posted do say something valid about us, but they say something about you too. Andrewa 16:21, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

t3gah 13:02, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)According to the definition for automobile there should only be one page here at wikipedia.org for that with links to the various manufacturers, but instead there is a Ferrari page and Mercedes Benz page and so on. What about trucks? Same there too. What about Linux? Do you have separate pages for Linux, like say SuSE, Red Hat, Fedora Core, Slackware, Debian, etc.? They too should just be links off of the main page of Linux. Then we have flower. Are there separate pages for different flowers here? So what did that person who deleted my first entry have in mind when they stated that one forum is the same as the other? That means this place is running double-standards. A car is a car. Linux is Linux no matter what distribution it is, it's still Linux. Open Source is Open Source. Is there a separate page for every application on the planet that's Open Source? What about Microsoft? Is there separate pages for their applications?

Everyone knows the answers to those questions. "I should have learned from the first deletion..." YOU SHOULD LEARN WHAT YOU HAVE HERE BEFORE YOU PASS JUDGEMENT IN IGNORANCE!

So now wikipedia.org, it's time for you to delete every separate manufacturers page of items that belong under one terminology to keep up with the remark your colleague stated. "One is the same as another."

 * Who are you talking to? Few people, I imagine, watch this page such that your message would get heard. I was surprised to see it on my Watchlist and clicked through just to find out why I'd added it. I recall now that I added it because you are terribly misguided as to what the point of Wikipedia is, and I wanted to keep an eye on you in case you decide to become disruptive instead of simply unhappy.
 * I'm pleased that you haven't... but still, what is your complaint? Obviously, Ferrari, the company, is encyclopedic, so your comparison fails on that count: your list wasn't obviously encyclopedic, and to the contrary, was considered obviously not encyclopedic by other editors. Further, the forums of which it was a list were also not encyclopedic. Nothing about the article belonged in an encyclopedia, so it was voted out of the encyclopedia. What is your complaint? Do you dispute the way Wikipedia's quality control mechanisms work, or do you just disagree that the list didn't belong? — Saxifrage | ☎ 23:07, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:T3gah


text:
User:BCKILLa/Temp

/DB_Navbar_templates /Polsci Dec 5 2004 /Canadian City Templates /Coordinate Work

Pages needing Layout fixed

 * Granby, Quebec
 * Airdrie, Alberta
 * Fort Frances, Ontario

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User:BCKILLa/Temp


text: User talk:68.210.21.214

title: User talk:68.210.21.214


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Sonia Rykiel

Sonia Rykiel (Flis; ; 25 May 1930 – 25 August 2016) was a French fashion designer and writer. She created the Poor Boy Sweater, which was featured on the cover of French Elle magazine. Her knitwear designs and new fashion techniques led her to be dubbed the "Queen of Knits". The Sonia Rykiel label was founded in 1968, upon the opening of her first store, making clothing, accessories, and fragrances. Rykiel was also a writer, and her first book was published in 1979. In 2012, Rykiel revealed that she was suffering from Parkinson's disease. She died from complications of the disease on 25 August 2016.

Early and personal life
Sonia Flis was born to Jewish parents in Neuilly-sur-Seine on 25 May 1930. Her mother was from Poland, and her father was a watchmaker from Romania. She was the eldest of five sisters. In 1948, at the age of 17, she was employed to dress the window displays in a Parisian textile store, the Grande Maison de Blanc.

In 1953, Sonia married Sam Rykiel, owner of Laura, a boutique selling elegant clothing. The couple had two children, Nathalie and Jean-Philippe Rykiel. They divorced in 1968.

Rykiel often wore her clothes from her own label and stuck to wearing dark green, brown, navy, and black garments. Of her style, Rykiel said, "I hate wasting time getting dressed. I like to put something on and just think: 'Yes. That's it.' When I'm tired I like to dress very simply – perhaps a black crêpe jacket and black crêpe trousers." Rykiel was also known for her distinctive hairstyle – red hair cut into a bob with a heavy fringe.

In 2009, Rykiel signed a petition in support of film director Roman Polanski, calling for his release after Polanski was arrested in Switzerland in relation to his 1977 charge for drugging and raping a 13-year-old girl.

Early beginnings
In 1962, unable to find something to wear during her pregnancy, Rykiel used an Italian clothing supplier to design and create a dress and a sweater, which incorporated high cut arm holes and a shrunken fit to cling to the body. The practical and modern style led to orders from her friends and became known as the Poor Boy Sweater. Rykiel started selling the sweaters from her husband's store and the Poor Boy Sweater made the cover of French Elle magazine, bringing Rykiel fame. Actress Audrey Hepburn bought 14 sweaters in every colour.

Sonia Rykiel
Rykiel's husband helped her to create the Sonia Rykiel Company in 1965. In 1968, Rykiel opened her first boutique store on the Left Bank.

Rykiel invented various fashion techniques. She was the first designer to put seams on the outside of a garment, leave hems unfinished and use slogans on her sweaters. She has also been credited with popularisation of wearing black. In 1972, Rykiel was dubbed "Queen of Knits" by Women's Wear Daily. She was also known as "Coco Rykiel", a comparison to Coco Chanel. In 1977, she became the first designer to create a line of clothes for mail order firm 3 Suisses. The following year, she launched her first fragrance called Septième sens (Seventh Sense).

By the early 1990s, the Sonia Rykiel company had grown into a $75 million business, with two women’s wear lines, men’s wear, children’s wear, accessories and perfume, and was sold by 250 retailers in 40 countries.

Nathalie Rykiel was appointed president of Sonia Rykiel in 2007. In October 2008, at a fashion show celebrating the brand's 40th anniversary, tributes were paid to Rykiel. Thirty fashion designers, including Ralph Lauren, Jean-Paul Gaultier and Giorgio Armani, showcased their visions of the "Rykiel woman". In December 2009, Rykiel and H&M introduced "Sonia Rykiel pour H&M", two masstige operations with the Swedish retailer. An event was held at the Grand Palais in Paris to celebrate the collection.

In January 2012 the Sonia Rykiel company became majority-owned by the Hong Kong-based First Heritage Brands, part of the investment company Fung Brands. Fung Brands acquired 80 percent of Sonia Rykiel, with the Rykiel family retaining a 20 percent stake as well as the company’s real estate.

That same year, Canadian designer Geraldo da Conceição succeeded April Crichton as the artistic director of Rykiel. Julie de Libran took over the role during the following year.

In 2016, Nathalie Rykiel sold the family’s remaining 20 percent stake to First Heritage Brands and relinquished her board seat, though the family kept the real estate. Shortly after, the company implemented a major restructuring plan that included closing the Sonia by Sonia Rykiel diffusion line, adding lower-price items to the main Sonia Rykiel collection, and laying off workers.

For its advertising campaigns, Sonya Rykiel has been working with photographers including Dominique Issermann (1979–1993), Mert Alas and Marcus Piggott (2013), Craig McDean (2014) Juergen Teller (2015) and Glen Luchford (2016).

In mid-2019, after years of mismanagement by First Heritage Brands, the Sonia Rykiel brand liquidated its operations, after a Paris commercial court judge rejected Lévy, the only remaining bidder for the company. In late 2019, brothers Eric and Michael Dayan bought the Sonia Rykiel company for a reported sum of 10 million euros.

Writing
Rykiel was also a writer. She wrote several books about fashion, a collection of children's stories, magazine columns and an epistolary novel with Régine Deforges. Her first book Et Je La Voudrais Nue (I Would Like Her Naked) was published in 1979. In 2012, she co-authored N'oubliez pas que je joue (Don't forget it's a game) with journalist Judith Perrignon.

Interior design
Rykiel contributed to the interior decoration for the Hôtel de Crillon (1985) and the Hôtel Lutetia.

Music and film
Rykiel collaborated with impresario and performer Malcolm McLaren on the song "Who the Hell is Sonia Rykiel?" on McLaren's 1995 album Paris.

Rykiel makes a cameo appearance in Robert Altman's 1994 film Prêt-à-Porter. Altman was inspired to make the film after attending one of Rykiel's ready-to-wear fashion shows. The lead character, played by actress Anouk Aimée, was based on the designer. Rykiel appeared as Hortense in the 1998 French comedy film Riches, belles, etc..

Costume design
Rykiel designed and created the costumes for the French musical comedy Les Dix Commandements in 2000.

Death
Rykiel died at her home in Paris during the morning of 25 August 2016, aged 86. Her death was caused by complications from Parkinson's disease. Rykiel revealed in 2012 that she had been suffering from the disease for fifteen years. She is survived by her children Nathalie and Jean-Philippe Rykiel. President François Hollande called Rykiel "a pioneer", while Jean-Marc Loubier stated "It is a sad day but Sonia Rykiel leaves behind her an extraordinary legacy."

Exhibitions
The Sonia Rykiel brand and its designs were the subject of an exhibition at the Musée des Arts Décoratifs, Paris from 20 November 2008 to 20 April 2009, curated by Olivier Saillard.

Honours

 * Oscar from Fashion Group International of New York (1986)
 * Officer of the Ordre des Arts et des Lettres (1993)
 * Award for Design Excellence from the Chicago Historical Society's Costume Committee (1994).
 * Officer of l'Ordre National de la Légion d'Honneur (1996)
 * Trophée Whirlpool des Femmes in Gold entrepreneurial award (1997)
 * Commander of the National Order of Merit (2001)
 * Woman of the Year from the Association des Amis du Musée de Tel-Aviv (2002)
 * Promoted to Commander of l'ordre national de la Légion d'Honneur (2008)
 * Grande Médaille de Vermeil de la Ville de Paris
 * Promoted to Commander of l'Ordre des Arts et des Lettres for her contribution to arts and literature (2012)
 * Promoted to Grand Officer of the National Order of Merit (2013)
 * A street in Paris was named after Sonia Rykiel in September 2018.

title: Sonia Rykiel


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Jackie Trent

Yvonne Ann Gregory (born Yvonne Ann Burgess; 6 September 1940 – 21 March 2015), better known by her stage name Jackie Trent, was an English singer-songwriter and actress. She was best known for co-writing (with Tony Hatch) several hits for Petula Clark in the 1960s and the theme tune to the Australian soap opera Neighbours in 1985.

Early years
Trent was born in Newcastle-under-Lyme, the daughter of coal-miner Les Burgess and his wife Lily. Her first stage appearance was as an eight-year-old ingenue in the pantomime Babes in the Wood and at the age of nine she won first prize in a national poetry competition. At the age of 11 she won the Carrol Levis and His Discoveries talent show and thereafter changed her stage name to "Jackie Trent", having lived in Stoke-on-Trent for the few years previous. She sang at local venues and was known as "the Vera Lynn of the Potteries".

Her first single, "Pick Up the Pieces", was released in 1962 on the Oriole label, but it was not until Pye Records and three years later that she scored her first hit with "Where Are You Now", written by Tony Hatch and Trent, who at that time were involved in a successful professional collaboration with Petula Clark. The song was featured in the popular TV series It's Dark Outside. "Where Are You Now" reached number one in the UK Singles Chart in May 1965, topping the chart for one week. The song was written and recorded in just four days after Hatch was asked by Granada TV to produce a song for the female lead in the programme to be seen on screen playing to herself. The lyrics were written by Trent on Christmas 1964, just before she embarked on a three-month tour of South Africa. When the song first hit the TV screen, people contacted TV Times to ask where they could buy the record with sales accelerating. The song went to number one in May 1965, replacing the Beatles' "Ticket to Ride".

Petula Clark's 1966 hit, "I Couldn't Live Without Your Love" was inspired by the ongoing affair between Trent and Hatch, and they subsequently went public with their relationship. In August 1967 they were married in Kensington. Their duet "The Two Of Us" topped the Australian charts and created a demand for concert and cabaret performances earning the duo the nickname of "Mr & Mrs Music".

Although she recorded several singles and albums, both as a solo artist and with her husband, Trent was more successful as a songwriter than a singer. In addition to their compositions for Clark, over the years she and Hatch wrote extensively for other artists, including Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, Jack Jones, Nancy Wilson, Des O'Connor, Val Doonican, The Montanas, Shirley Bassey, and Vikki Carr.

In 1968 the couple also wrote the song "Joanna", a hit for Scott Walker.

In the late 1960s, Trent returned to the stage with a UK tour of the musical Nell, playing Gwynne opposite Hermione Baddeley as the title character. The show opened at the Richmond Theatre for a season in 1970.

1970s
In 1970, Trent recorded the Les Vandyke-composed "I'll Be Near You" and in March that year she appeared on the cover of the British music magazine NME. The 1970s saw Hatch and Trent diversify into the world of musical theatre. The first of their projects, The Card, based on Arnold Bennett's novel, with book by Keith Waterhouse and Willis Hall, ran in London's West End with Jim Dale and Millicent Martin in the starring roles. (Coincidentally, Clark had starred in the 1952 film version with Sir Alec Guinness). An original cast album was released in 1975. A rewritten version of the show, starring Peter Duncan and Hayley Mills, played the Regent's Park Open Air Theatre in the 1990s and spawned a new cast album.

The second Hatch/Trent musical was Rock Nativity, with book and lyrics by David Wood. Initiated and produced by Cameron Mackintosh, it first played in Newcastle upon Tyne. An updated version of the show toured nationally in 1976, and was broadcast nationally by Scottish TV. A full-length concert version was also recorded at the Cork Opera House for transmission by RTÉ.

In 1972, the couple wrote the song "We'll Be With You", a celebration of Trent's home town football club Stoke City reaching the final of the Football League Cup. Released under the name 'The Potters' (the club's nickname), the song was recorded using Pye Records' outside broadcast unit and featured the team and supporters. Some 40 years on it is still played at all Stoke City home games and reached number 34 on the UK chart. The couple wrote the theme for the game show Mr and Mrs for Border Television which was used from 1975.

Theme to Neighbours
After Trent and Hatch relocated to Australia in the 1980s, they were asked to write the theme song for the television soap-opera Neighbours. The soap opera was going to be called Ramsay Street, before the couple penned the song. Trent told Jessie Stoelwinder from The West Australian, "We wrote the song as Neighbours because we said Ramsay Street was too close to Coronation Street, which was the major soap in Britain." The theme was written and recorded in a day and Trent said "We called in Barry Crocker at about 10pm to put his voice on it and it was on the producer's desk by 10am the following morning. And they loved it, so the series was then called Neighbours."

Recording career
In a recording career spanning 1962–1990, Trent issued a total of twelve albums, five compilations and 51 singles.

Later years
After returning to the UK, Trent toured with the musical High Society, in 1995.

In 2014 Trent worked with the Porthill Players on a stage show of her life. Prior to her death, she had been scheduled to appear in Jackie in May 2015.

Personal life
When Trent and Hatch married in August 1967, Hatch already had two daughters from his first marriage. The couple went on to have a son and daughter together. They separated in 1995 and divorced in 2002. Hatch married Maggie Clough in May 2005, living with her in Spain.

Trent married Colin Gregory in November 2005. She died in hospital on 21 March 2015, aged 74, in Menorca, Spain, after a long illness.

title: Jackie Trent


text:
User:Bijee~enwiki

 * ml:User:Bijee / talk [+ ]  |   b:User:Bijee   |   b:ml:User:Bijee |   wikt:User:Bijee   |   wikt:ml:User:Bijee
 * wikitravel:User:Bijee  |   wikicities:User:Bijee

 * Sandbox 1
 * How to edit a page 2
 * Vandalism in Progress.
 * Administrator intervention against vandalism.
 * User:Bijee/Sebastian Mankuzhikary

 * User:Bijee/List of Governors of Kerala
 * User:Bijee/List of Chief Ministers of Kerala
 * User:Bijee/Chief Ministers of India
 * User:Bijee/Governors of India

 * Chief Ministers of Kerala
 * Chief Ministers of India
 * Governors of India

 * /Vallam Kali

Alexa Rank

 * See Rank Reach PageView Rank List

 * Wikipedia Alexa Rank 50
 * Today Mon July 11, 2005 Wikipedia Alex Rank is 48, this is the first time Wikipedia got in 50 rank mark -- 23:17, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
 * last 3 days rank was 46,50,48 -23:04, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

class="plainlinks"

title: User:Bijee~enwiki


text:
TMD

TMD may refer to:

Arts and entertainment

 * Team Deathmatch, a gaming mode
 * Telemundo, a Spanish-language television network
 * The Medic Droid, a synthpop band
 * "Truly Madly Deeply", a 1997 song by Savage Garden

Military

 * Texas Military Department, United States
 * Theater missile defense, targeting medium-range missiles

Science

 * Temporomandibular joint dysfunction, a jaw condition
 * Transmembrane domain, part of proteins
 * Transition metal dichalcogenide monolayers, a thin semiconductor material
 * Transverse momentum distributions, in particle physics experiments

Technology

 * Thorn Microwave Devices, a brand of Thorn Electrical Industries
 * Tip-magnetic driving, a fan technology
 * Tuned mass damper, a vibration absorber

Other uses

 * Traction maintenance depot, a rail engine shed
 * Trade Marks Directive, a European Union law
 * Tottenham Mandem, an English street gang

title: TMD


text:
John Earman

John Earman (born 1942) is an American philosopher of physics. He is an emeritus professor in the History and Philosophy of Science department at the University of Pittsburgh. He has also taught at the University of California, Los Angeles, Rockefeller University, and the University of Minnesota, and was president of the Philosophy of Science Association.

Life and career
John Earman was born in Washington, D.C. in 1942. Earman received his PhD at Princeton University in 1968 with a dissertation on temporal asymmetry (titled Some Aspects of Temporal Asymmetry) and it was directed by Carl Gustav Hempel and Paul Benacerraf. After holding professorships at UCLA, the Rockefeller University, and the University of Minnesota, he joined the faculty of the History and Philosophy of Science department of the University of Pittsburgh in 1985. He remained at Pittsburgh for the rest of his career.

Earman is a former president of the Philosophy of Science Association and a fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, and of the American Association for the Advancement of Sciences. He is a member of the Archive Board of the Phil-Sci Archive.

The hole argument
Earman has notably contributed to debate about the "hole argument". The hole argument was invented for different purposes by Albert Einstein late in 1913 as part of his quest for the general theory of relativity (GTR). It was revived and reformulated in the modern context by John3 (a short form for the "three Johns": John Earman, John Stachel, and John Norton).

With the GTR, the traditional debate between absolutism and relationalism has been shifted to whether or not spacetime is a substance, since the GTR largely rules out the existence of, e.g., absolute positions. The "hole argument" offered by John Earman is a powerful argument against manifold substantialism.

This is a technical mathematical argument but can be paraphrased as follows:

Define a function $$d$$ as the identity function over all elements over the manifold $$M$$, excepting a small neighbourhood (topology) $$H$$ belonging to $$M$$. Over $$H$$, $$d$$ comes to differ from identity by a smooth function.

With use of this function $$d$$ we can construct two mathematical models, where the second is generated by applying $$d$$ to proper elements of the first, such that the two models are identical prior to the time $$t=0$$, where $$t$$ is a time function created by a foliation of spacetime, but differ after $$t=0$$.

These considerations show that, since substantialism allows the construction of holes, that the universe must, on that view, be indeterministic. Which, Earman argues, is a case against substantialism, as the case between determinism or indeterminism should be a question of physics, not of our commitment to substantialism.

Selected articles

 * "In the Beginning, At the End, and All in Between: Cosmological Aspects of Time," F. Stadler and M. Stöltzner (eds.), Time and History: Proceedings of the 28th International Ludwig Wittgenstein Symposium (Ontos-Verlag, 2006).
 * "In the Beginning, At the End, and All in Between: Cosmological Aspects of Time," F. Stadler and M. Stöltzner (eds.), Time and History: Proceedings of the 28th International Ludwig Wittgenstein Symposium (Ontos-Verlag, 2006).

title: John Earman


text:
Talk:French Community of Belgium

French Community of Belgium -- Communauté Wallonie-Bruxelles
The new name that French-speakers and sympathisers give to their community creates a lot of confusion. They pretend it is just as legal, and should be accepted as 'Flanders': "likewise there is no mention at all of "Flanders" as a region and community in the Belgian constitution - something which also creates confusion about the differences between regional and community institutions". However, this is not relevant: the name 'Flanders' is widely used in officil belgian legislation (ordinary legismlation) and other Belgian documents. Moreobver, it is the only linguistically possible and correct name as the current Flemish institutions are not regional institutions, nor community institutions, nut merged institutions. Therefore, they do'nt refer just to the region, nor to the community, but to the whole, and what other logoical name can be found for the whole then 'Flanders'. And, contrary to 'Flanders', the new name 'Communauté Wallonie-Bruxelles' is not used in any official belgian publication.--Rudi Dierick 14:23, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your remark. Since I still think it is relevant in this context to indicate, as a comparison, that the term Flanders is likewise not mentionned in the Belgian Constitution, I reworded the paragraph.
 * Two remarks:
 * 1. Is it correct and most suitable to include these non-official terminology and discussions around it in an encyclopedia? Is this not to political and partisan, and to far removed from official and scientifically relevant and correct information? --Rudi Dierick 18:15, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * 2. In case this inacciurate, coinfusiuon and unofficial name should be included, and in case some background information is to be added (as you did), then one cannot put that name on the same level as the name 'Flanders' in itself only referes to he Flemings and their nation and institutions, and thus not creates any political implications, nor any legitimate conflict with the French-speakers (as does the name 'Communauté Wallonie-Bruxelles'). Therefore, i reworked this paragraphu, keeping the fact that the name sometimes is confusing as it refers both to the Flemish region, to the Flemish community, as tyo the actual Flemish institutions (parliament, ..) and to their political parties. --Rudi Dierick 18:15, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 * Otherwise, you wrote the expression "Communauté Wallonie-Bruxelles" is "(...) contested by the Flemings as it creates confusion about the differences between regional and community institutions". It would be interesting I think to add your sources. Thanks in advance for your helpful contribution. --Edcolins 21:13, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)
 * In order to find the most official references, i should do some background checking (more then ksut refeerring to press articles); i'll have a word on this with somebody working in the Flemish administration. As far as I reember, there is even an official complaint lodged by the Flemish government against that name.--Rudi Dierick 18:15, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * You'll certainly note the huge political difference between '"Communauté française Wallonie-Bruxelles" and "Communauté Wallonie-Bruxelles". It think the former is both much more precise, less contary to the spirit of the belgian institutions and its constitution, and less aggressive towards the Flemings. the former appears to me also linguistically more appropriate. --Rudi Dierick 18:15, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

at is the 'Communauté (française) Wallonie-Bruxelles'?
Apparently, it is extremely confusion what this names refers to.

Ed Collins tought it refers "to institutions of the French Community of Belgium or more broadly to institutions which are common to the French Community of Belgium, the Walloon Region and the Commission communautaire française (COCOF, an French-speaking institution of the Brussels-capital Region). I tought that it referred only to the French-Speaking Community of belgium, and NOT to any regional authority, nor Walloon, nor Brussels.

The source given by Ed Collins appears not to refer to the 'Communauté (française) Wallonie-Bruxelles', but to 'WBRI', being a working cooperation between:
 * French-speaking Community of Belgium
 * COCOF
 * Walloon Region

This suggests to me that the name of 'Communauté (française) Wallonie-Bruxelles' got confuised with 'Wallonie-Bruxelles Relations Internationales' WBRI, where the latter (WBRI) NOT with the Brussels regional authorities. A furterh confused might have arisen in the description of the cOCOF. According the law, the COCOF is basically the internal executive level for the brussels regional area assuming most competencies of the Community level for the Frech-speakers, whereas its (long) name 'Commission communautaire française de la Région de Bruxelles-Capitale' might suggest tha it has certain competencies that were defined in the constitution as regional.

Conclusion: 'Communauté (française) Wallonie-Bruxelles' refers only to the French-speaking Community of Belgium. Checking the webstite of the 'Communauté (française) Wallonie-Bruxelles' and especially the comptencies listed overthere confirms this.

'Comm. Française Wallonie-Bruxelles' versus 'Comm. Wallonie-Bruxelles'
Starting point of this short analysis is that the current institution of the 'Communauté Française de belgoque' naming itself now more and more with teh 2 other inconstituional names has today ONLY legal compeencies in the area of the communties (and none at all in the area of the regional competencies). So far the objective facts.

Seen from a scientific and communication point of view, out of the 2 new names, 'Comm. Française Wallonie-Bruxelles' might be better: it designates clearly which legal competencies and what demographic and political group of persons is implicated, being the French-speaking citizens in Brussels and Wallonia. Even better would have been 'Communauté Francophone Wallonie-Bruxelles'. Those names also avoid any confusion between the the nature of the legal competencies involved, nor about what public is covered.

From a political point of view, the first name thus avoids any conflict between regional versus community institutions, and also between the two main communities. For the latter, there is an official complaint from the Flemish governement against the use of 'Comm. Wallonie-Bruxelles'.

Sociologically, anoher observation can be made: the relative public use of all those terms reerring to the french-speaking community in belgium (the "Communauté française de belgique", the "Communauté française Wallonie-Bruxelles" and the "''Communauté Wallonie-Bruxelles" can easily be estimated by doing a Google check. The results are clear (status 15 dec 2004):
 * 1) "Communauté française de belgique" : 104.000 hits
 * 2) "Communauté française Wallonie-Bruxelles":  15.100 hits
 * 3) "Communauté Wallonie-Bruxelles":  12.100 hits

In short: given all these considerations, I think Wikipedia should stick with actual, neutral and objective truth, being '"Communauté française de belgique', and explain what this community is about, its media, its culture, universities, its political parties and institutions, ... and then refer all political projects for how some French-speakers would like to change things towards an article on the Walloon movement, or on detail articles on politics of the French-speaking community.

Population?
What is the population of the French Community of Belgium? That would be a helpful bit of information to include.
 * Alas, no official figures exist. They're also imposible to gve as there is no official status for the 'citizenship' of the communities. regards. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rudi Dierick (talk • contribs) 22:11, 16 March 2007 (UTC).

Renaming proposal

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved.   A rbitrarily 0   ( talk ) 23:32, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

French Community of Belgium → Wallonia-Brussels Federation – The French community decided to rename itself the "Wallonia-Brussels Federation" or "Fédération Wallonie-Bruxelles" in French, so the article should be moved to reflect this change. Link to the news in Dutch and French: .--Ultimate Destiny (talk) 11:55, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
 * You're right. Someone really needs to update every use of the word 'French Community', both in the article and the rest of the encyclopedia. I don't have the time these days though.  Oreo Priest  talk 14:34, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

POV and misleading
The name "Wallonia-Brussels Federation" for French Community is controversial, for example this new name is not accepted by Flanders and has no legal basis. The proper name for this level is the "French Community of Belgium" as mentioned in the Belgian Constitution. On top, it is confusing, as the French Community only has cultural and educational competencies. Economic matters in Brussels for example are covered by the Brussels Region and Dutch cultural and educational competencies in Brussels belong to the Flemish Community. Morgengave (talk) 08:44, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Why was this article renamed?
I do not understand the section herebefore ("Renaming proposal"). It seems to refer to a discussion I do not see. Who decided to rename this article? And why?

Before renaming French Community of Belgium into something else, why not checking the name of the entity in the 3 national languages that are official in Belgium: Asavaa (talk) 20:13, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * fr:Communauté française de Belgique
 * nl:Franse Gemeenschap
 * de:Französische Gemeinschaft Belgiens

I agree with the last section (POV and misleading). What happened is that the French Community, as explained in the dutch and franch artile for instance, calls herself the Wallonia-Brussels Federation. But this name has no real existence. To give you an example, it would be like the state authorities of Texas deciding to rename the state into "Tex-Mex Federation". As long as they would not change anything else than the name, no-one would really care, but not one public authority (other than those submitted to texan authorities, that is) would use that name. This is exactly what happened: the "French Community", which is an entity created and organised by the Belgian constitution and various Belgian laws, decided to change its name. But that name has no legal existence and nowhere in the laws organising the Community you can find that the Community has any authority to do that. This new name can only be a "nom d'usage" or a surname, that will exist only if it is actually used. And other Belgian authorities (the federal state and Flanders) have aleady very clearly expressed that they would not use that name and wil not acknowledge any document that would bear that name.

Really, the only way to deal with this is to keep the name of the article in French Community of Belgium, and mention in the introduction that since may 2001, the Community refers to herself under the name of Wallonia-Brussels Federation. Asavaa (talk) 10:55, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * No other body recognizes the name? This is news to me, although I must admit I haven't been keeping current. Where were you guys when the rename was still a proposal?  Oreo Priest  talk 17:14, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Asavaa, there was a space for discussion just above your post, which has been open for a week and yet nobody opposed the proposal. Why didn't you oppose the proposal while it was current?--Ultimate Destiny (talk) 20:28, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Only one person agreed (Oreo Priest), clearly indicating that this page is not visited or checked frequently... It's not really fair to blame users - - most of whom are busy people - for not checking all pages each week. Now that's clear for everyone that this move shouldn't be done without a proper discussion, I propose that the article name be restored to its neutral name (the constitutional name). Morgengave (talk) 22:08, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Page move proposals are listed on the appropriate page (WP:RM) as soon as they are proposed, and they can be carried out after seven days if nobody is opposed, so there was nothing unusual about this case. If you want to move it back, your best bet is to simply open another renaming proposal instead of asking the closing administrator to undo the move as you did, as it's by no means obvious that you have the necessary consensus to do so.--Ultimate Destiny (talk) 22:41, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Ultimate Destiny, really, if that is actually the procedure around here, you should expect that on an article like this one (only 18 edits between January and the rename proposition), you will get an article renamed after 1 week with 1 person agreeing, and then people coming by a little later to ask what happened. You cannot seriously talk about a consensus when 2 guys agree on something without nobody noticing.
 * Anyway, I did not ask the admin to undo his edit, I just asked him how the rename should be reversed (although I know that I can technically do it myself).
 * To go a bit further into the discussion re the name
 * references to other Wikipedias are not necessaryly valid, but in this case, it is interesting to note that in the Wikipedias written in the 3 national languages that are official in Belgium, the name is unchanged: fr:Communauté française de Belgique, nl:Franse Gemeenschap, de:Französische Gemeinschaft Belgiens
 * Isn't it a good indication that the change is indeed strange, that the article says: "The Wallonia-Brussels Federation (...) is one of the three official communities in Belgium along with the Flemish Community and the German speaking Community." The federation is a community...how strange ! (see "ce n’est, à cette heure-ci, qu’un changement cosmétique" - it is a purely cosmetic change)
 * The communities are entities that are organised by the special law and the constitution. They have no power to rename themselves. So the new name will have no "external" effect. For instance, all official acts will still be acts of the French Community. And right now, all official acts are taken using the name French community. Check in the Belgian Official Gazette: you will probably see on any given day some acts by the "Communauté française", because the new name has no official legal existence.
 * Flanders has reacted to this rename as follows: "Le ministre-président flamand, Kris Peeters, ne reconnaîtra pas la Fédération Wallonie-Bruxelles comme instance officielle. Les invitations qui viendraient cette instance ne sont pas constitutionnelles et n'existent donc pas" (the Minister-President of Flanders will not recognize the federation as an official body. Invitations that would be sent by the federation are unconstitutional and therefore do not exist), "Vlaams minister-president Kris Peeters (CD&V) zal de Federatie Wallonië-Brussel niet als een officiële instantie beschouwen die de Franse Gemeenschap vervangt. Dat liet hij woensdag verstaan in het Vlaams Parlement. Uitnodigingen van de Federatie Wallonië-Brussel zijn niet grondwettelijk en bestaan dus niet, zei hij" (same thing).
 * You will hear the new name on the RTBF, he french official radio, which is normal, as it is owned and controlled by the french community, but you will never hear it on the dutch-speaking radios ("La rédaction en chef du département de l'information de la VRT a décidé de ne plus utiliser le terme "Federatie Wallonië-Brussel" lorsque la chaîne publique flamande fera référence au titre des personnalités politiques dans ses émissions." (the head of the news departement of the VRT had decided to not use the name "Federatie Wallonië-Brussel").
 * Belgium's prime minister has reacted in the same manner: "De federale regering zal alleen rekening houden met benamingen die vermeld zijn in de grondwet" (the federal government will taje into account only the official name that is mentionned in the Constitution).
 * The president of the community himself acknowledges that the new name isn't offical nor legal: in this article of Le Dernière Heure, one can read that "the new name is illegal, as article 2 of the Constitution says that Belgium comprises three communities, the french community, the Flemish Community and the German speaking Community", and that when asked about this, the spokesperson of the president of the community rebukes the argument but sort of acknowledges its validity by saying that the general idea is to vote a resolution that will add the name "Wallonia-Brussels Federation" to the name "French community", and to use the first one alone when doing so does not create a legal insecurity ("L’idée est ici de voter une résolution pour adjoindre la mention Fédération Wallonie-Bruxelles à l’appellation Communauté française, voire à ne recourir qu’à la première dans tous les cas où son usage ne crée pas d’insécurité juridique.")
 * On top of the 'local use as exemplified by the fact that the Wikipedia articles in the local languages kept the official name, a look at the use of the names by the local newspapers in french is interesting. I looke at article published since 16 April of this year, when the "new" name became a talking point and there has been a large discussion on the subject:
 * When searching "Le Soir" archives for the use of either one for the period, we can find 214 occurences for "Fédération Wallonie-Bruxelles" and 809 using "Communauté française".
 * When searching "La Libre Belgique" archives, we find 226 occurences for "Fédération Wallonie-Bruxelles" and 685 using "Communauté française".
 * When searching "La Dernière Heure" archives, we find 206 occurences for "Fédération Wallonie-Bruxelles" and 919 using "Communauté française".
 * A very clear advantage to the use of "Communauté française", example: Rudy Demotte célèbre la Communauté française (while the article does address the "new name", the choice of the the journalist is clear. Same thing here, where the title uses "communauté", but the article itself also uses "fédération". All in all, journalists seem uncertain about what to do (except of course journalists paid by the community), but continue to use the "communauté" much more largely than "fédération" (as the figures above show).
 * So as I said above, the "French Community", which is an entity created and organised by the Belgian constitution and various Belgian laws, decided to change its name. But that name has no legal existence and nowhere in the laws organising the Community you can find that the Community has any authority to do that. This new name can only be a "nom d'usage" or a surname, that will exist only if it is actually used. The only neutral way to deal with this is to restore the name of the article in French Community of Belgium, and mention in the introduction that since may 2001, the Community refers to herself under the name of Wallonia-Brussels Federation.
 * I will make a new request in WP:RM. Asavaa (talk) 10:01, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

The Tex-Mex Federation argument is fallatious. If the State of Texas decided to rename itself whatever, that name would be reflected in Wikipedia, regardless of its "legal status" in other legislations. The Belgian government and Flemish government argument is misleading. The current Belgian prime minister who made the comment in DH is from a Flemish political party and was previously the Minister-President of Flanders and therefore hardly a neutral figure. Referencing the Belgian government gives the impression of a weight of opposition in Belgium against the use of the name, which may or may not be true but is not proven by the quotes posted by other users here. The reality is that there is no evidence of objection from anyone who is not Flemish. As for delays in adapting to usage, that is surely to be expected with a new name and says nothing about its legality. Please remember that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a Belgian or Flemish legal document. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.27.19.199 (talk) 08:22, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * This is not a question of flemish or not. The newspapers in french who are still overwhelmingly using "Communauté" are not flemish. Maybe someday "federation" will be used and this article will be named accordingly, but I can see no reason for WP to create a use that does not exist (see the WP articles in the national languages). Asavaa (talk) 18:26, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move back to original name. Aervanath (talk) 04:38, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Wallonia-Brussels Federation → French Community of Belgium – French Community of Belgium is the previous name of the article that was renamed into "federation" a week ago without real discussion. The "federation" name is not official although it is used by the french community itself, but it is refused by other entities of Belgium. The legal name that the "federation" uses in its official acts remains "French community". The fact that the community now uses for his internal communications the name "federation" can be mentionned in the article, but the name of the article should be the name used in the Constitution and in the special laws who organise the communities in Belgium. See also "Why was this article renamed?" in the talk page Asavaa (talk) 10:11, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose. What the Belgian constitution says is not a determining factor here, WP:PLACE is. "Wallonia-Brussels Federation" has been the most commonly used denomination for this entity since it was renamed earlier this year, it was chosen by the entity itself and widely adopted by the francophone press. I don't even think that the Flemish use is relevant, either. The guideline states that "if no name can be shown to be widely accepted in English, use the local name". In this case, the local name is clearly the most commonly used French name, and that is the current title.--Ultimate Destiny (talk) 11:40, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * First I think the page should be renamed except if you can provide a convincing argument, as the previous rename was done without any real debate. And my argument is not only based on the COnstitution.
 * Then, I wonder how you can say that the local use is "Wallonia-Brussels Federation", when all the wikipedias in the national languages of Belgium still use the official name after discussing the matter.
 * Finally, when searching "Le Soir" archives for the use of either one for the period since 16 April 2011 (thus the period wherein there has been a large discussion on the subject), we can find 214 occurences for "Fédération Wallonie-Bruxelles" and 809 using "Communauté française".
 * So based on your own argument, the local use tells us that the name of the article must be French Community of Belgium.
 * By the way, I think WP:PLACE is not really relevant: the community, or the federation, is not a place. It is a governmental entity. WP:NC-GAL may be more relevant. Asavaa (talk) 12:06, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The only way you have to move back this page is by reaching consensus to do so. The previous nomination was closed by an administrator after a regular renaming proposal. I don't have to convince you of anything, the page stays at the current title unless your proposal is supported by the community.--Ultimate Destiny (talk) 13:11, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * So what you're saying is that you were able to change the article name to a POV-name in a moment when people were busy doing other things, and that now we cannot change it back to its non-POV-name because you can block the consensus? Let's put things in perspective: the move was done with only the support of one person and is clearly not with a "real" consensus as can be seen by our move-back request in only one week later after the move. Using the absence of other editors during that particular week as basically "bad luck for them" does not seem in line with the general spirit of Wikipedia. This move should never have been done without a proper discussion, even if that meant waiting a bit more and trying to involve other editors. Morgengave (talk) 13:26, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, Ultimate Destiny, as you are the one who proposed the previous change, I can understand this can be your position, but I'm afraid that the fact that the previous request was a bit hastily closed cannot have an impact here: your request was not consensual, as is shown here and now.
 * But besides this procedural point that may have to be dealt with by admins, I note that you do not adress any of my arguments, not even the argument that adresses your sole argument about the "local use": the local use is Communauté française, as I showed above. Asavaa (talk) 13:28, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

 * Support. I agree with Asavaa. The name Wallonia-Brussels Federation is controversial and not generally accepted and thus constitutes a POV. The name French Community of Belgium is the established name for this Belgian state institution. It is also the official, generally accepted and constitutional (and legal) name. Moreover, the institution does not have the power to change its name. In addition, the name Wallonia-Brussels Federation is misleading and can confuse readers: first of all, this is not a federation between Brussels and Wallonia, and secondly, its competencies are limited to the education and cultural matters of French-speakers in Brussels and Wallonia. Morgengave (talk) 13:10, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Oppose Asavaa seems to be acting like a bit of a troll here. Of course the page on the French Wikipedia, marred as it is by countless revert wars, is at Communauté Française instead of Fédération, as soon as it was renamed he moved it back himself, I can't tell if it was done after reaching community consensus or it was just a spurious act of the moment. And the policy WP:NC-GAL is clearly irrelevant here, as this is not a "government office" but a territory (why would it need a location map otherwise?!) and add to this the canvassing attempts at fr.wiki and this new renaming proposal is off to a bad start.--Nero the second (talk) 13:41, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Hum, quite a strange way to adress arguments. I do not see how a discussion can be possible as you just launch personnal attacks and do not address any of the arguments I raised. This page was renamed because the procedure was a bit hastyly closed (considering the small amount of people that can be interested - 18 edits on the article between January and the move), obviously that move was not consensual, is controversial, as is the "new name", and should be reversed.
 * I am not interested in wikilawyering or in personnal attacks, hence I detailed all the arguments who make it obvious that the article should be renamed. Should I understand that your personnal attacks are just a sign of lack of arguments? I think that you should then refrain from intervening here.
 * (and by the way, no, the french community is not a territory. The territories are the Regions. As art 127 of the Constitution puts it: "[the decrees of the french community and of the flemish Community] are enforceable respectively in the french speaking region et the dutch-speaking region as well as towards institution established in the Brussels region who are attached to the relevant community." - free translation)
 * Asavaa (talk) 14:25, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * A territory is "an area of land under the jurisdiction of a ruler or state". The WBF is a territory under this definition. As another user has pointed out already, what the constitution says is of no interest whatsoever to the argument. As for the wikilawyering, that was all your doing, you were the one who feigned surprise and indignation after seeing this page renamed, after having reverted a similar attempt (with no authority and without following procedure) on the French wiki. I can't assume good faith in your regard after this masquerade you put up to fool us into renaming the article. As for the accusations of "personal attacks" you're more than welcome to take it to WP:WIKIQUETTE, if you think they will take you seriously, I doubt they will however.--Nero the second (talk) 15:14, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but you are mixing concepts here. The community does not rule over a territory, it rules over a certain category of belgian citizens within certain limits. For instance french-speaking citizen living in Brussels, although they live on the territory of the Brussels Region.
 * Whether you are willing to accept it or not, calling a contributor a troll and saying that you refuse to assume good fait are personnal attacks. Please stop it.
 * I do not think this is the appropriate forum to criticise what happens on other wikipedias, but on fr:Wikipedia, moves are supposed to be discussed. If they are not the subject of a consensus, they do not happen. On fr:WP, this is exactly what happened: undiscussed moves were reverted. I made one of these reverts. This does not alow you to question my motives, as I always have been willing to discuss the issue but never saw a valid argument for the move. Asavaa (talk) 15:32, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Nero, I assume you are not Belgian (if I am wrong, please do not take this wrongly), so to clarify: the French community is a Belgian government institution with certain powers (mostly education and culture) over a part of the inhabitans (all Walloons, all French-speaking Brusselians, but NOT Dutch-speaking Brusselians) of a defined territory (that's the reason we show a map), but it is clearly NOT the name for a territory, so your argument does not hold ground. PS: I do not understand why it's necessary to launch a personal attack against Asavaa. What he did do or not do on the French wikipedia according to you is irrelevant. Here on the English Wikipedia, he has raised a really valid point, he is using arguments why this is the case, and he is following procedure. Morgengave (talk) 16:29, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Many of the "communauté française" results are false positives:
 * ...Madagascar abrite la plus grande communauté française en Afrique...
 * ...la communauté française installée dans ces deux villes marocaines...
 * ...militants UMP de la communauté française de Londres... (UMP is a French party)
 * ...exaspérant la communauté française d'origine arménienne....
 * ...etc. Wallonia-Brussels Federation is unambiguously related to Belgium, so we don't encounter the same issue with this name.--Ultimate Destiny (talk) 15:29, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't necessarily approve of Nero's manners but I think that Asavaa should have been more upfront about his involvement in the matter on the other wiki, especially since he comes from "outside" the project, it almost seems that he's tipping the scale in his favour after a consensus of sorts was already reached (even if it was out of general disinterest).--Ultimate Destiny (talk) 15:41, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I checked the 100 first results of the search on Le Soir, and did not see any "false positive". There can be some in the 809 occurences, but I do not think there are more than a fistfull. The overwhelming use is clearly in favour of "communauté française".
 * I do not see what I should have said about my involvement in other wikis. I am not responsible for the fact that the german and the dutch WP have kept the old name. And as far as the WP:fr is concerned, I have applied the rules that ask for a consensus for a move. I was the guy who made the last revert I think (there had been others) and who initiated a new discussion on the subject on the talk page and on the talk page of the relevant project. I had not been involved in the starting edit war (and quite frankly, these subjects do not really interest me, check out my contributions on WP:fr, although I sometimes, like in this case, try to help in solving issues that are controversial), I reverted the undiscussed move and started the discussion, I think that on any wiki it is the appropriate method. The discussion did not develop a lot, but various sections on the french talk page indicate a strong consensus towards keeping the name.
 * Lastly, I do not see what "he comes from "outside" the project" means. You mean the "Belgium" project? Asavaa (talk) 15:55, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Even assuming that there are no false positives on Belgian websites, "Fédération Wallonie - Bruxelles" yields more results on the site of Le Soir than "Communauté française".--Ultimate Destiny (talk) 16:18, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Is is the contrary. For the period since April, it is 214  "Fédération Wallonie-Bruxelles" vs 809 "Communauté française". (If you do not limit the search to this year, then you get 438 "Fédération Wallonie-Bruxelles" vs 42489 "Communauté française", but I reckon this is not fair for "fédération";-).  Asavaa (talk) 16:39, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The point is that Wallonia-Brussels Federation is a POV-name: not generally accepted, unofficial, controversial and misleading. I do not really see what you are trying to prove with some links? That chunks of French-speaking press now adhere to the controversial name is not a secret. However, this is still a Belgian institution and just like Flemish parties cannot split BHV without support of French-speaking parties, francophone parties cannot change the name of a Belgian institution without Flemish support. If the new name were for instance to be adopted in the Constitution and become, the article name ought to change. As long as this does not happen, we should stick with the neutral, official and non-controversial name. Morgengave (talk) 16:29, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree. This does not preclude the article can say clearly, including in the introduction, that there is a "secundary name" or "surname" that is also used, but the title should stick with the reality of the official name that is still overwhelmingly used.
 * Besides this, as Morgengave says, using the "fédération" name is POV, dramatically, as the mere use of the new name is heatly debatted in Belgium.
 * But again, the article should be "communauté française" and reckon the existence of the "fédération" name, and explain clearly what it is about. Asavaa (talk) 16:39, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * In the list of arguments I list in "Why was this article renamed", a very compelling one in my opinion is the fact that the president of the community himself acknowledges that the new name isn't offical nor legal: in this article of Le Dernière Heure, the journalists says that "the new name is illegal, as article 2 of the Constitution says that Belgium comprises three communities, the french community, the Flemish Community and the German speaking Community", and when asked about this point of view, the spokesperson of the president of the community rebukes the argument but sort of acknowledges its validity by saying that the general idea is to vote a resolution that will  add  the name "Wallonia-Brussels Federation" to the name "French community", and to use the first one alone when doing so does not create a legal insecurity ("L’idée est ici de voter une résolution pour adjoindre la mention Fédération Wallonie-Bruxelles à l’appellation Communauté française, voire à ne recourir qu’à la première dans tous les cas où son usage ne crée pas d’insécurité juridique."). Asavaa (talk) 16:56, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The name was not changed by "a Belgian party", it was changed by a Belgian institution, it was the FC itself that decided to alter its name. Btw, if we did change the name, how would you explain the logo?Logo Fédération Wallonie-Bruxelles.png--Ultimate Destiny (talk) 16:38, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, the problem is that the french community, like other federated entities in Belgium, is organised by the Constitution and by the (special) law, and does not have the legal capacity to determine its own name. As showned by various sources mentionned above, the decision of the french community is, if not illegal, not legal to say the least. As the spokesperson of the president of the community said, the general idea is to vote a resolution that will  add  the name "Wallonia-Brussels Federation" to the name "French community", and to use the first one alone when doing so does not create a legal insecurity.
 * But even if you do not consider these legalities (check out the name of the institution as it still appears in the official gazette), the fact is that the change is controversial, and that not even mentionning official acts (where the fédération does not even exists), the old name is still what is used by most journalists for instance. So the move is clearly controversial and POV.
 * I do not see how the fact that there is a new logo changes anything. What does it add to the "name change"? It is the same issue. Asavaa (talk) 19:02, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Oppos I follow the discussion with interest and the current name is right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kososseg (talk • contribs) 13:22, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
 * You know, this is not a voting page. Would you have any argument? Asavaa (talk) 17:50, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
 * At time of his comment, it was literally Kososseg's only edit to the English Wikipedia, so I don't think his opinion should be given very much weight.  Oreo Priest  talk 18:51, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Comment I'm a bit disappointed in the lack of civility, and also a bit surprised at the absence of most of the regular players in Belgium-related discussions. I should also mention that I was the person who supported Ultimate Destiny's proposal, but at the time I did not realize that the name was being seriously challenged in the real world. It should be noted that 2 people's opinion does not count as consensus, and there was a serious lack of quorum.

As for the actual issue, I'm not really convinced of either position. On the one hand, I see the argument that FWB isn't the legal/constitutional name as very weak, and I recognize that it makes sense for bodies to dictate the name they use publicly, and hence recognizably. Notably, the Flemish Region/Community presents itself publicly as 'Flanders' in many circumstances, despite that not being the constitutional name. So again, I'm unconvinced by the 'legal name' argument. On the other hand, I'm unconvinced that the name FWB has actually seen wider adoption than FC (or vice-versa), which would be the reason to pick the one legal(?) name over the other. I understand that counting Google hits can be difficult and misleading, but I also have never really followed the news in Belgium that much, so I can't offer even a personal opinion on which version has the wider adoption.  Oreo Priest  talk 18:51, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Flanders is a whole different issue. As you will read in Flemish Community, this community and the Flemish Region have merged, which was something that was authorised by the Constitution. So the use of a name that covers the merged entities is quite normal, and generally accepted in Belgium, although we still have here Flemish Community and Flemish Region (there is an article Flanders, but is is not referring to the political bodies).
 * The Walloon Region is also currently going by under the name of "wallonia" (see their website. That is a bit more controversial however, partially because people living in the Region say that they never were inhabitants of the historical wallonia, and "Région wallonne" is still very commonly used. Anyway, in WP, we still have Walloon Region (federal region) (I wonder why there are brackets, as there is no disambiguation issue) and Wallonia who are 2 different things (while Walloon Region (federal region) does say that the region is commonly called Wallonia).
 * But more importantly, the biggest issues with the new name is that
 * it is not widely adopted. Check in the section "Why was this article renamed?" above the search I made with the search engine of the 3 most largely distributed newspapers to see if they used the new name since it was adopted in April 2011. Since that date they continued to use "Communauté" much more often than "fédération" (about 3 times more occurrences for all three newspapers)
 * it is controversial. In the newspapers first (example), but quite notably a large part of Belgium (the flemish government, the federal government and the flemish official media organisation) has very clearly said that it considered the change as illegal, unconstitutional, and that they will refuse to acknowledge the existence of that name. And that is also a quite different story than Flanders.
 * Bottomline: the new name is not commonly used, and is very controversial, which means that renaming the article was contrary to WP rules on various levels, as it was POV.
 * The only reasonable solution is to reverse the move, rename the article into French Community of Belgium and to include in the article the fact that the community has adopted a "nom d'usage". There is no problem in being very clear and straightforward in the article about this "surname".
 * This solution is in line with naming rules, NPOV, and the way other federated entities are dealt with in WP. Asavaa (talk) 20:09, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, my use of Flanders was an imperfect analogy, but there are some parallels still. Also, as I mentioned, I'm not convinced by search engine hit counting as a strong argument. And what other (federated) entities are dealt with in the way you mention? I'd like to see some examples if you could come up with some.  Oreo Priest  talk 21:51, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Re search engine, well, I see no other way to illustrate the use of the name and I thought your comment was specifically adressed to Google searches (while I used the search of each newspaper).
 * Re use for other federated entities, not sure what you want. There are not that many federated entities in Belgium :-) Other countries you mean? I do not know if there is any other coutry where a name can be controversial :-o The examples I gave are still valid:
 * the flemish community and Region are merged into Flanders, but WP still has separated articles Flemish Community and Flemish Region, while Flanders is is not referring to the political bodies).
 * The Walloon Region is promoting "wallonia" (see their website), but WP still has Walloon Region (federal region) and Wallonia who are 2 different things (while Walloon Region (federal region) does say that the region is commonly called Wallonia, similar to what could be done for the "fédération" name in the article of the french Community).
 * German-speaking Community uses that name, and is quite naturally German-speaking Community of Belgium in WP
 * Brussels-Capital Region seems to be a strange case : the Region itself uses Brussels-Capital Region, so there should be no issue, but quite strangely, WP uses Brussels, a name not commonly (or never) used when referring to the Region, and while Brussels is in fact one of the municipalities forming the Region (City of Brussels in WP). I do not understand what happened here ( on WP:en I mean ) at all. It has absurd consequences and creates ambiguities such as when somebody refers, in the intro of Flemish Community to the "Flemish Parliament based in Brussels" (while is is indeed in Brussels, but in fact in the City of Brussels). Quite counterintuitive and creating ambiguities that apparently also led to heated discussion on whether or not Brussels was the capital of Belgium of Europe...I think we should make moves there as well, don't you think?
 * BTW, I just noticed that the parliament of the community was using both names. Probably because using only the "fédération" name might cause legal issues. Asavaa (talk) 06:11, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The positions of Wallonia and Brussels reflect consensus on en:WP, so do not move them. The position on this WP is that the distinctly Belgian obsessions with distinguishing territories and people from the bodies that govern them takes a back seat to the more normal view of conflating them. The page Walloon Region (federal region) was made for the specific details of the history of that institution as an institution, but not the subject as a whole, which is Wallonia. The problem with the page Flanders is that nobody (including me) has made a serious effort to clean it up into a normal format and subject, which is why it's such a mess.  Oreo Priest  talk 13:25, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment I also encourage editors to hold back from changing references to the FC/FWB elsewhere in the encyclopedia until this issue has been resolved.  Oreo Priest  talk 18:53, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The only reasonable outcome is to look for more outside opinions from uninvolved editors and wait for the discussion to be closed by an administrator. Which is how the renaming procedure works, by the way.--Ultimate Destiny (talk) 21:08, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Getting opinions from other editors, that sounds like a good idea, but the message I posted on the Belgium project does not seem to have had any effect. Any suggestion? Asavaa (talk) 21:26, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Give them the time to notice it? It's been less than two days. If that fails, there's always requests for comments.--Ultimate Destiny (talk) 00:03, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
 * As for the current title being "controversial": that's not a factor, there are countless other articles which use "controversial" titles because they are, in any case, the most preferable forms, like Falklands, Taiwan, etc. Contrary to what Asavaa claims, the renaming did not violate any policies or guidelines.--Ultimate Destiny (talk) 21:18, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't you agree that for Falklands or Taiwan, any choice would be controversial? Here, there is one name that is controversial (ie criticised, not used and rejected by over 60% of the country) and the other that is official, widely used, and not subject to any critic. Asavaa (talk) 21:26, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The controversy with using FC instead of WBF would be that that's not the new name (if it is to be considered the legitimate new name that is). Neither choice is uncontroversial.  Oreo Priest  talk 13:25, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Support After personally reviewing the newspapers' usage, it is clear that usage in French is divided, with a notable tendency towards FC. No Dutch source seems to use WBF at all. Although the body has tried to implement the name WBF, the fact that other bodies do not recognize it and the fact that actual use of WBF is certainly not widespread have convinced me that the article should go back to French Community of Belgium. As mentioned before, the article should make very clear that the body calls itself WBF, and that usage is divided. Details of status and usage should not be in the lead but in a separate section.  Oreo Priest  talk 14:30, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Support The FC has used different names in the past, none of which have ever been reflected in the article title. The new WBF name has not been recognized by other government bodies (for example the Belgian Federal Government still uses FC) and legally the WBF itself still needs to use the FC name on official texts. Furthermore WBF is at present not widely used, not even in the French-speaking press. All this could change in future, but today we should stick to the FC name. Of course the article should reflect that the FC itself uses WBF. By the way, I don't believe some newspaper announced the new name, they probably only reported the FC did. BertK (talk) 23:01, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
 * FYI, each of the three newspapers shown by Asavaa above has used the name outside of the context of the renaming, but in each of the three, WBF is much less common than FC.  Oreo Priest  talk 00:32, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Support I was quite surprised to see "Fédération Wallonie-Bruxelles" listed on Communities,_regions_and_language_areas_of_Belgium and it not being a redirect. I recall that the rename was in the news here in Belgium already quite some time ago, but it seemed more of a publicity stunt or move towards claiming Brussels as their territory (which is the real reason behind this rename, for your information). When they announced it, there was no single mention of the name on their website. Now, viewing their website again, they clearly indicate the rename. I might be not neutral, but I don't think this should be named FWB, because, as mentioned above, it has no legal grounds. The names of the regions and communities are fixed in the constitution. SPQRobin (talk) 20:23, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
 * A Fleming is as neutral as a francophone on the matter, IMHO. Also, I've added support to your comment for clarity, I hope that's ok with you. Cheers,  Oreo Priest  talk 20:37, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Support: the main argument is definitely the fact that the constitution only mentions French Community and that this is the term used in the media and common speech. There are no parallels with the articles on the Brussels-Capital and Walloon Regions being subsumed under "Brussels" and "Wallonia" respectively, since these are geographical terms that correspond to the territory of a political level ("Flanders" is a specific case). The use of "Wallonia-Brussels Federation" is merely a self-designation worth mentioning but should in no way replace the constitutional name of the "French Community". --Hooiwind (talk) 13:19, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Change of content following the move
I make a quick elementary change further to the rename, especially in the intro, but I will have a further look later. Asavaa (talk) 06:43, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

'Disputed'
Regarding this edit: 1. The parliament of the then-French Community of Belgium has officially adopted the name Fédération Wallonie-Bruxelles. As the parliament is a recognized legislative power, this name does in fact have legal standing, just not constitutional standing. 2. I bet you can't provide a reference for your claim that "more than half of the country rejects" the new name. - TaalVerbeteraar (talk) 09:56, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
 * 1. It cannot change its "legal name" because simply these names are defined by the constitution. The community parliament did however change its own internal "working name", but that name is not its legal name. PS: I will check whether it has the legal power to change its working name in the first place. (I do not dispute that it has changed its de facto name, like in websites, communications, logo, etc.) 2. I meant "more than half of political Belgium". And sure, google the controversy, all Flemish parties fiercely rejected the new name (if you insist, I can list some newspaper articles here that mention that all Flemish parties rejected the new name plus that the new name is controversial - seen the huge storm in Belgian media, that will not be difficult.). Flemish parties represent more than half of the Belgian population. Hence, your argument that only "some Flemish nationalists" rejected it, as you argued here, is not correct: . Consequently, the description of "not universally accepted" is just plain wrong. My preference went to the article version we had here, with just the word "controversially" mentioned in the lead: . Seen this "controversy" in Belgium, it cannot be denied that their new name is "controversial". I took the liberty to restore the article to the version before our interventions - let's wait and involve other wikipedians until we reach a consensus. Vrachtschip (talk) 10:43, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Just for the people that are not aware. Parts of the controversy are: the Flemish parliament will not accept invitations using the new name. Or: Flemish television channel VRT has decided not to use the new name. Etc. Vrachtschip (talk) 10:52, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Vrachtschip is correct about the fact that the new name is legally shaky to say the least. Check out for instance Communauté/Fédération the website of the Community/Federation that says that "All ordinary communication we make, whether internal or external, will use the official name Wallonia-Brussels Federation. Under "ordinary communication" we understand any communication that has no legal effect. Because the Constitution was not modified, all text with a legal impact must use the words "Communauté française". This means mainly all regulations and all texts or acts that have a legal impact (authorisations, contracts, etc)".
 * So even they do know that this name cannot be used all the time, only when there is no legal impact.
 * Now for "controversial"...well I do not know, because the guys of the "Communauté/Federation" have been very cautious, I did not hear any controversy on the subject recently. Asavaa (talk) 05:58, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Percentages of population
The percentages given, 58% for the Flemish Community and 41% for the French community are not correct, as the Flemish community also includes the 1 million people in Brussel. It doesn't make a lot of sense to compare these to each other, as they will sum to more than 100%. The correct figures are 67%, 41% and 1%. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.197.12.69 (talk) 09:29, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The 80% of Brussels that is French speaking doesn't form part of the Flemish community in any meaningful way. That's how the percentages have been apportioned.  Oreo Priest  talk 16:54, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
 * It's pointless to include percentages of how many belong to a community since there are no official statistics and people in Brussels often use the services of both the Flemish and French Community. For the Regions it would have make sense, but not for the Communities.--Wester (talk) 20:24, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Data about religions are incorrect. The source doesn't even speak about protestantism. Being a french speaking belgian myself I cas assure everyone that only a few % are protestants. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:690:7:100:0:0:2:AFCA (talk) 09:14, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

???
"The Walloon Region and the Commission communautaire française (COCOF, a French-speaking institution of the Brussels-Capital Region)." As this lacks a verb, it does not appear to be a sentence, and I don't know what it is supposed to mean. Thank you. Mannanan51 (talk) 22:31, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Hey can you show where the sentence is placed in the article? I will try to sort it out.--Gabriel Haute Maurienne (talk) 23:13, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * After the first sentence in Alternate Name. Mannanan51 (talk) 16:04, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Salut Mannanan51, Is it better? --Gabriel Haute Maurienne (talk) 19:17, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Oui, merci. Mannanan51 (talk) 19:19, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
 * That changed it to a not very coherent text. I've now restored the original meaning. Several edits screwed it up along the way, [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=French_Community_of_Belgium&diff=552917958&oldid=539470535] and [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=French_Community_of_Belgium&diff=next&oldid=661088365]. SPQRobin (talk) 21:57, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Requested move discussion
The requested move discussion at Talk:German-speaking Community of Belgium may have implications for the title of the present article as well. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  21:34, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

"French-speaking Community of Belgium"
This is more accurate translation is it not? Communauté française is unambiguously referring to the language because of the lack of capitalisation. To do the same in English, you'd write "French-speaking", because typically in English an adjective like "French" denominates the people / nation first. I mean there's really no concise way to prefix "French" to refer to the people / nation, so English speakers will automatically assume it refers to the people / nation when used as an adjective like this.

Granted "French Community of Belgium" is the literal translation, but in conventional English this is inferring that it is referring to a community of the French nation in Belgium. Thus it's actually very misleading phrase given most French-speaking Belgians are not French at all.

"French-speaking Community of Belgium" returns 34,300 results.

"French Community of Belgium" returns 55,200 results.

That's not a huge discrepancy, so much so that I'm surprised the former is not bolded in the introduction here. Personally I don't know enough to feel confident in starting a move request. Just wanted to ask about this predicament, and as to why Wikipedia is siding with the literal translation. I'm guessing the issue is perhaps with official sources using the literal translation?

Rob984 (talk) 20:02, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

.....it's meant to be misleading. The NWO fascists are very pro-French. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.0.183.116 (talk) 01:41, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

title: Talk:French Community of Belgium


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