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Talk:Lambert's cosine law

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I corrected the statement that the radiance follows the cosine. I took out the telecommunications link and the section:

Sources
 * Federal Standard 1037C

because it made no sense to me when I followed the link.

I am thinking this might cause a problem with some people's links, so if I did wrong, please fix it. I'm new to Wikipedia, so if I'm not following protocol, please let me know that too.

Paul Reiser 20:42, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

 * The protocol is be bold. Good job.  For what it's worth, the link to Federal Standard 1037C is essentially a historical glitch.  The original text of this page is from  (a sub-page of .  Frames suck).  But it isn't especially relevant.  Dbenbenn 02:54, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Lambertian diffuse lighting model
The page Lambertian diffuse lighting model has a lot of the same information as this page. As far as I can tell, the Lambertian model simply posits the Lambertian cosine law. Should the pages be merged? Dbenbenn 02:06, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I think they should, under "Lambert's cosine law". I will do that in a day or two, unless you do it first. Paul Reiser 04:06, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I think the page Lambertian diffuse lighting model is quite a bit clearer than the Lambert's cosine law page. In the latter page, all that "flux", "total power", etc, makes things too complicated. "Apparent brightness" is so much easier to understand. Oleg Alexandrov 04:17, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

We could have the first paragraph be more intuitive, the second more technically precise with links to definitions. Maybe a diagram, too. --PAR.

 * I saw a nice explaination of Lambert's cosine law at this MIT class page. They do not talk at all about the observer's line of sight, as you do in the first paragraph of Lambert's cosine law. From that external link I think it follows that the power observed does not depend about the observer's line of sight, because light spreads in all directions equally. Does this contradict your first paragraph? I could be wrong, I don't know much about this. Oleg Alexandrov 19:25, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Agreed. The lambert surface has nothing to do with the observer. It simply states that for a surface with constant radiance in all directions, it's power distribution over space has to go with cosine. The reasoning about cosθdΩ in figure 2 is simply wrong and covers the fact that cosine distribution of radiant intensity is a characteristic of the lambertian surface rather than observer angle. Constant radiance means equally obeserved brightness but that is just another story. This page is likely to be the source of all the confusions I've seen in computer graphics. --Xiaoyu87 (talk) 05:30, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Thats ok, I seem to have problems explaining this clearly. If I can write a page that you approve of, maybe we will have a good page. The problem is that there are two quantities, both of which have units of photons/sec/cm^2/sr or energy/sec/cm^2/sr. The emission from the Lambertian surface is measured in these units, and that emission varies as the cosine of the angle from the normal. The observer measures radiance, which is also in these units and that is independent of the angle from the normal. Some people say "intensity goes as the cosine of the angle" which is correct for the emitted intensity, while others say "intensity is constant" which is true for the observed intensity. The thing about the observed intensity, is that as you vary the angle, and keep the area you are looking at constant, the solid angle the observer sees for that area decreases as the cosine of the angle, as does the number of photons/sec received, and so the ratio of the photons emitted from the area divided by the solid angle that the observer sees for that area has the two cosines cancel, and the observed photons/sec per solid angle is constant. I'll try to draw a diagram that illustrates this.Paul Reiser 22:21, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * OK, I understand things now. I think for people in computer graphics, who use Lambert's cosine law a lot (maybe more than people in other disciplines), what matters is the observed intentsity, that is, what is in the eye of the beholder. Maybe the article should be split into two clearly delimited parts, one being what the observer sees, and the other being what happens at the surface itself when the light strikes. And maybe what the obverver sees should be given priority. Or maybe not. I don't know. I am looking forward to your changes to the article. Oleg Alexandrov 22:46, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * How about this: "The observed brightness at a point depends on the angle at which the light strikes that surface, but not on the angle of view. Specifically, the brightness is proportional to the cosine of the angle between the light source and the surface normal." Dbenbenn 23:10, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This would be nice! One could also maybe add after your text: "Therefore, a point appears brightest if the light strickes "head on" at that point, and dimmer if the light strikes under an angle...." Just some thoughts. Oleg Alexandrov 23:18, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Done. I ended up removing the following text. Perhaps some of it should go back in?
 * ... is the statement that the total power observed from a "Lambertian" area element is directly proportional to the cosine of the angle θ made by the observer's line of sight and the line normal to the area.

 * This means that the area element will be just as bright no matter what angle it is viewed from. The total amount of power that an observer sees will be proportional to the brightness multiplied by the solid angle subtended by the area element. The area element will have a maximum solid angle subtended when it is viewed "head on" (i.e. θ=0) and will become smaller as the angle is increased until it is zero when θ=90 degrees. That means that the total power observed will be maximum when the area element is viewed head-on, and will drop to zero when viewed edge-on. The brightness (or power per unit solid angle) will be constant, however. The sun, for example, is almost a Lambertian radiator, and as a result the brightness of the sun is almost the same everywhere on an image of the solar disk.

 * When an area element is radiating as a result of being illuminated by an external source, the flux (energy/time/area) landing on that area element will be proportional to the cosine of the angle between the illuminating source and the normal. For a Lambertian reflector, the light reflected from this source will be the same in all directions, so the radiance seen by any observer will then be proportional that incident flux which will be proportional to the cosine of the incident (not the observing) angle.

Dbenbenn 00:25, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I made a few word smithing changes to the derivation of the observer-angle independence of the radiance of a Lambertian surface. I think the existing material was solid but it was missing a few little hints that would have made it easier for me to digest on the first reading. I'm a Wikipedia neophyte, so I apologize if my edits or this comment are misplaced. Hope it helps! Ryan-feeley (talk) 08:22, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Lambertian radiators?
The text I removed above talks about "Lambertian radiators", such as the sun. And some of the links to this page expect there to stuff about Lambertian radiators here. As far as I can tell, a Lambertian radiator is simply one that emits light uniformly in all directions. I don't see where the cosine comes into it. Dbenbenn 02:23, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

On the rewrite
Now I understand! I have just one problem with the article. The people in computer graphics I think use this law much more than anybody else. For them, the Lambert's law is:

"The brightness of a point on a surface is proportional to the cosine of the angle betwen the incident ray at that point and the surface normal at that point".

The way you wrote the article, this is an afterthought, put in the very last paragraph, and stated there as a conclussion of the very long theory you developed in this article. So, for phisisists your article will be interesting, for computer graphics people, it will be kind of not helpful. I don't know how to reconcile these. Oleg Alexandrov 05:33, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The reflection law is a special case of the emission law, so thats why I did it that way, plus I have a physics bias. Putting the reflection part in the first section doesn't sound like a bad idea to me. Paul Reiser 16:25, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Image:LambertCosineLaw.png
Hey Paul,

Would you consider splitting Image:LambertCosineLaw.png into two images (the top and bottom). Then if you remove the "Figure 1" and "Figure 2" captions, we can just put them in text, with code like
 * [[Image:LambertCosineLaw.png|thumb|right|411px|Figure 1: Emitted intensity]]

Dbenbenn 14:28, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I will split it up and stick it in somewhere using the above format. I didn't like the captions anyway, and this gives more freedom to change. Paul Reiser 16:25, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I split them, but do you know how to center the captions?Paul Reiser 17:11, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

 * Why do you want the caption centered to start with? I think left-aligned looks just fine. There is some info about captions at Picture tutorial, but not what you want (at least I could not see centered captions).

 * Oh, if you really really want it, I think you can hard-code centered caption in html instead of using Wiki markup. Just look at the html source code of the page, and figure out where to insert a thing. Oleg Alexandrov 17:54, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, that worked fine. Its just that in scientific publications, single-line captions are centered, multi-line are not. I expanded the captions, so they stayed left-justified.

Terminology
I have adjusted the terminology used on this page to agree better with correct optics usage. Note that "brightness" is an ambiguous term, and should not be used in any scientific context, except when talking non-quantitatively about human perception of light. "Intensity" was also a problem here, since it is also ambiguous, and the sense in which it was used on the page conformed to none of the common standards. Intensity was used here to mean luminance and/or radiance. Intensity much more commonly means any one of luminous intensity, radiant intensity, irradiance, or illuminance. See also intensity (which is the same as irradiance). I am in the process of updating the definitions of some of the linked terms, so if the definitions are not clear right now they may be soon. --Srleffler 07:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * I strongly object to the use of the luminous terms - the article should not give the impression that this is a phenomenon which involves the response of the human eye for its validity or understanding. It should be done in radiance units, and every time the article offers an intuitive explanation in terms of a human observer, I think, with a little thought, it could be written so as to be technically correct, but not confusing to someone who doesn't understand the difference. I will do this soon, unless somebody agrees with me and does it sooner. PAR 17:57, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

 * Sounds fine to me. I used photometric units because I thought they lent themselves better to intuitive explanations, and also because, based on the date, I assumed Lambert originally formulated his law in photometric units. I did keep the radiometric units for the long example at the end. It is important to me that whatever units are used, the units and the explanation must be technically correct. Incorrect use of these units already leads to a lot of confusion.--Srleffler 04:39, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

 * It seems that the term "radiance" is used improperly here. If you consider the radiance definition, you will see that the radiance of a Lambertian reflector is equal in all directions (because it already takes into account the cosine between the surface normal and the observer line of view). This contradicts with the sentence "In mathematical terms, the radiance along the normal is I photons/(s·cm2·sr) and the number of photons per second emitted into the vertical wedge is I dΩ dA. The number of photons per second emitted into the wedge at angle θ is I cos(θ) dΩ dA." Midnighter84 (talk) 23:12, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Moon example
An anonymous editor altered the moon example today, completely reversing the sense of it. I have commented it out in the article for now, pending confirmation of one version or the other by someone with knowledge of this subject. The old text was:

 * For example, if the moon were a Lambertian reflector, one would expect to see its reflected brightness appreciably diminish towards the outer edge, or limb. The fact that it does not diminish illustrates that the moon is not a Lambertian reflector, and in fact tends to reflect more light into the oblique angles than a Lambertian reflector would.

and the new text is:

 * For example, if the moon were a Lambertian reflector, one would expect not to see its reflected brightness appreciably diminish towards the outer edge, or limb. The fact that it does not diminish illustrates that the moon is nearly a Lambertian reflector.

--Srleffler 05:48, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Yes the anon edit was wrong. The increased angle of incidence near the limb will cause a decreased amount of light/area falling on the surface at the limb for any kind of reflector. For a lambertian reflector, that decreased amount of light will have the same brightness when viewed from any angle, but its still decreased from the larger light/area falling on the surface normal to the sun (i.e. away from the limb). The fact that the decrease in brightness is less than expected means the moon is not a perfect lambertian reflector. PAR 20:10, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

 * Despite the discussion above, I think the text on the page is still wrong. The light falling on the moon's surface per square metre must fall continuously to zero as you approach the terminator (the border between the illuminated and the dark parts of the moon's surface).  Therefore the apparent brightness (however you define it) must also fall to zero continuously.  The fact that the terminator appears to be a discontinuity must be because of the non-linearity of human perception.

 * When the moon is full, the terminator coincides with the limb. Therefore the apparent brightness must fall smoothly to zero as you approach the limb.

 * I am not sure that the moon is a good example at all. --194.81.223.66 13:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

 * The 'New Text' in this context is correct: the moon is a good example of a lambertian scatterer. The brightness of a lambertian scatterer does not appear to diminish with increase in observer angle and therefore appears equally bright across the whole disk (As does the Sun in one of the above examples). The point here is that the ignoring the observer angle is misleading. Let us take two observers, one on the earth and another on the moon. The earthbound observer shines a torch on the moon and illuminates an area that subtends a fixed solid angle. It does not matter where this light is shone on the moon, it always subtends the same solid angle. To the observer on the Moon, depending at what latitude/longitude (i.e. where the normal from the surface is pointing with relation to the torch) the area subtended by this solid angle will change, therefore the irradiance changes. For the observer with the torch, there will be no change in apparent brightness as a function of torch beam position on the moon disk. Here's the point that is missing from previous arguments: depending on the angle between the normal of the surface and the observer, the observer will see an area proportional to the inverse of the cosine of that angle for a given solid angle viewcone. For example, the Earth-bound observer shines the torch at edge of the disc of the moon, the area in the solid angle of the Earthbound source tends to infinity, so irradiance tends to zero, but the observed area from the same point tends to infinity, so the overall response is unchanged; Similarly, for whichever point on the moon the moon-bound observer is standing, for a given irradiance, it does not matter at what direction that observer looks at the ground, it will always appear the same brightness as again, a given unit solidangle of viewcone subtends a larger area as angle of observation increases.Jpddowning (talk) 14:08, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

shorter is better
I prefer shorter articles. So I prefer not merging.

Examples
I came here looking for information -- and didn't find it. As far as I can tell, laser light is non-lambertian on account of the photons being in phase. I'm interested to know if there are other sources (perhaps LEDs? electric arcs?). While it's an interesting definition, it should be possible to know what it distinguishes between. If all the known light in the universe is Lambertian, then it's not a useful distinction ... sittingduck 21:06, 1 Mar 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, laser light is not lambertian. Nor is a flashlight. Lots of other sources of light are not lambertian, and most surfaces are not pure lambertian reflectors. Pure lambertian light is not all that common, but is widely used as an approximate model for diffuse reflection and emission of light. Combining some lambertian reflection with some specular reflection creates a good model for many surfaces. This approach is used in computer graphics, etc.--Srleffler 23:21, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

First WIKI edit ever
I dunno what I am doing with this WIKI thing... I guess this is the right way to add a comment to the bottom here.

Anyway, I am a computer graphics guy and would like to comment on this discussion. I see what apears to me to be a gaping hole in the definitions offered here. First Diffusion is a reflective property of a surface normal. Scattered reflectivity of a kind defined by the shader being used. Radience seems different. Radience would be more along the lines of luminosity - although it may be a superset that includes various reflective properties in some sciences. Luminous or radient properties are defined by rays which originate from the calculated normal for a smoothed surface. Diffusion is calculated from a light source. For example Lambertian Diffuse is basically the just the cosine of the angle between the surface and the light.

The gaping hole I mentioned is for a solid deffinition of Diffuse or Diffusion as it applies to Computer Graphics. The algo being used to "scatter" the reflected light is not important to this general definition. But I think should be included in any of the definitions of diffuse shading models such as Phong, Lambert, Minnaert, OrenNayer, Generic Occlusion Shaders, Generic Translucency shaders (where the diffusion is of refracted light and not reflected light), And likewise Sub Surface Scattering which is also a kind of "Diffuse" property.

My email address for further disscussion or whatever is Tesselator@gmail.com and my name is James Dean Prentice III. You can also reach me during the day at the Kyoto Institute Of Science and Technology in the Computer Science Department by just asking for Jim sensei. :)

 * Welcome! Yes, this is the right way to add a comment. Only one change: add four tildes (" ~ ") at the end of your comment. The software will replace this with your ip address or username and a timestamp, to make it easier to see which comments are from whom.

 * I think you may be confused because you're looking for information on computer graphics, and you have ended up at an article on physics. This article deals with the physics of diffuse reflection from an idealized "Lambertian" surface. The companion article on Lambertian reflectance talks a bit about computer graphics applications. These articles are still "under construction", and may end up getting merged into a single article eventually. There are also articles on the Phong reflection model and Phong shading. Some of the material you are looking for may be summarized at 3D computer graphics.--Srleffler 21:24, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

photons vs energy
What is the difference between photons vs energy in this context, for thinking about the distribution of light output vs angle?

Please add a linear plot of angle vs photons/energy/light emitted.

What is the half-power angle for Lambertian sources? This would be good material to add to the article, because this is the way many current light sources are rated.

It seems like the article should reference/link to LED SSL devices, since Lambertian is often mentioned for some high-power LED emitters. -96.237.10.106 (talk) 12:40, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

 * In this case it seems like the half-power angle would be 60 degrees, since cosine of that angle is one half. Personally, I donät know why they are making a difference between energy and photons, since a photon basically is energy quantized, i.e. one photon of a certain frequency v contains an energy E that is given by the Planck relation (or the Planck–Einstein equation) E = hv. Maybe they just prefer to keep a unitless number and instead try to obtain the probability distribution for the reflection angle of the photon. --Kri (talk) 01:11, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Peak intensity?
I'm trying to work out what the peak flux density is. That is if, a Lambertian radiator is radiating 1 W, what is the radiant intensity in the normal direction? I think it is 2W/sr. I get that from this:
 * ((pi*0.0000001^2)*(1/3) / (4/3*pi*.5^3)/0.0000001^2 sr = 2 sr

That is, all the power fills a sphere of radius 0.5. If we have a small element at 1 unit away in the normal direction, the left quantity is the volume of the cone to it, the right quantity is the subtended angle. Does that sound right? —Ben FrantzDale (talk) 21:54, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

 * If the peak luminous intensity is $$I_{max}$$, the total radiated luminous flux from the surface will be

 * $$F_{tot} = \int\limits_0^{\pi/2}\,\int\limits_0^{2\pi}\cos(\theta)I_{max}\,\sin(\theta)\,\operatorname{d}\phi\,\operatorname{d}\theta = 2\pi\cdot I_{max}\int\limits_0^{\pi/2}\cos(\theta)\sin(\theta)\,\operatorname{d}\theta = 2\pi\cdot I_{max}\int\limits_0^{\pi/2}\frac{\sin(2\theta)}{2}\,\operatorname{d}\theta = \pi\cdot I_{max}$$

 * (where sin(θ) is the determinant of the Jacobian matrix for the unit sphere), so the peak intensity will be 1/π of the total radiated luminous flux per square radian according to my calculations. --Kri (talk) 01:52, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

 * Great. Thanks! —Ben FrantzDale (talk) 14:50, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

 * Hm, maybe this is something to add somewhere in the article. --Kri (talk) 23:41, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

 * I agree; it should include units: that must be a factor of $$pi$$ steradians...
 * In general, I find the biggest source of confusion with radiometry and photometry is that it is so easy to inadvertently assume Lambertian surfaces, which suddenly makes lux and nits measures of the same thing, for example. If you don't realize you are making the Lambertian assumption, both seem to be measures of perceptual brightness of a surface. Given I am much more comfortable with the notion of power than steradians, I kept being drawn to lux over nits when I started working with this stuff.
 * If I understand correctly, then, a computer monitor that is 300 nits and perfectly Lambertian would have an emittance of
 * 300 nits π sr = 942.5 lx
 * in the normal direction. —Ben FrantzDale (talk) 12:29, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

 * From what I understand, nit is the unit for intensity per square meter (of radiating material), which is only measured in one specific direction (for example the normal direction), while lx is the unit for emittance, which is the total emitted flux per square meter that you would catch if you would collect all the light that is emitted in all directions. Hence it's not possible to talk about 942.5 lx in any specific direction. And nit and lux would not measure the same thing even if you would have a Lambertian surface.

 * For example, if a computer monitor that has an intensity per square meter of 300 nit would be Lambertian, it would have a total emittance of 942.5 lx, as your calculations showed. And even though it would be perceived equally bright from all directions (which a Lambertian surface is), the intensity per square meter would change and be lower when viewed from an angle instead of viewed directly from the front, according to the Lambert's cosine law. Consequently, one have to divide the intensity per square meter by cosine of the angle it is seen from, to get the perceived brightness. This is true for all surfaces, not only for Lambertian. --Kri (talk) 14:10, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

 * I misspoke. I meant 300 nits in the normal direction for a Lambertian emitter implies 942.5 lx. For comparison, an old LCD monitor, which emits primarily in the normal direction and is dim off axis, might achieve 300 nits, but would produce <942.5 lx total. —Ben FrantzDale (talk) 14:38, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

 * It should be noted that it is not wrong to say that $$F_{tot}=\pi\,I_{max},$$ and omit the steradians, since the radian (and hence also the steradian) is unitless and actually = 1 (see Radian). It may be a point to write it out in the last step as it is done right now in the article, but it is not a result of calculation but only for clarification of what we are actually measuring. It's a good thing to add the derivation to the article though. --Kri (talk) 00:45, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

 * Yes, radians and steradians are dimensionless (unless you start getting into geometric algebra, in which I think there are algebras that give angles a different "grade" than scalars, but that's way out of scope ;-) ). Especially since the "units" of those two things differ only by steradians, it seems useful. —Ben FrantzDale (talk) 14:26, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

 * Really nice example, to explain this. I added it to the article. I did change the numbers to 100 nits, just to make the math even more transparent - it's still in the range of a typical computer screen. I was tempted to continute a bit further, to get it even closer to something most readers can relate to, but i'm not sure if it'll get too far of topic:"Assuming 30% transmitivity of the LCD, the backlight would need almost 100 lm, which modern LEDs could supply using around 1 W power. Note however, if screens were perfect Lambert emitters, they would have a viewing angle of 180°. Especially notebooks will save power, by having a reduced viewing angle, ie. being non-lambertian."Do you think it's to farwinded? Tøpholm (talk) 00:16, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

 * I think it can be a good idea to mention what you wrote about LED screens and power saving for notebooks. --Kri (talk) 03:14, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

 * The talk about sin(θ) being the determinant of the Jacobian matrix for the unit sphere, seems completely out of place... The sin(θ) part is there, because the area of the integration surface element is smaller at lower polar angles θ. In other words, the differential solid angle is $$\mathrm{d}\Omega=\frac{\mathrm{d}S_r}{r^2}=\sin\theta\,\mathrm{d}\theta\,\mathrm{d}\varphi.$$ See solid angle or spherical coordinate system for reference. Tøpholm (talk) 00:54, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

 * I mentioned the determinant of the Jacobian matrix since that is what enters in the integrand when one switches from one coordinate system to another, essentially from cartesian coordinates to spherical coordinates as in this case. Only that here r=1, so r2sin(θ) (which is the determinant of that specific Jacobian) becomes just sin(θ). But maybe it is wrong to use it in this case since the surface we integrate over (that of the unit sphere) is two-dimensional while it is contained in a three-dimensional room, and that the method only happens to work in this case. So yes it can be removed, or maybe replaced by something that explains where it comes from. --Kri (talk) 03:02, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

error in first paragraph
"It has the same radiance because, although the emitted power from a given area element is reduced by the cosine of the emission angle, the size of the observed area is decreased by a corresponding amount."

... shouldn't it be "increased by a corresponding amount"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.228.112.21 (talk) 23:19, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

 * The sentence is ambiguous. I think it's trying to say "the observed angular size of the area is decreased by a corresponding amount". I think you are saying "the observed area subtended by a given angle is increased by a corresponding amount". Both are right, of course. —Ben FrantzDale (talk) 11:10, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

 * For a Lambertian surface, "the apparent brightness of the surface to an observer is the same regardless of the observer's angle of view". This means that the energy per solid angle is constant and does not depend on the angle of the viewer. The original statement was correct, the current statement is wrong.

 * This means, for example, that to the human eye it has the same apparent brightness (or luminance). It has the same radiance because, although the emitted power from a given area element is reduced by the cosine of the emission angle, the area subtended by a given solid angle from the viewer is increased by a corresponding amount. Therefore, its radiance (power per unit solid angle per unit projected source area) is the same.

 * The use of the word increased (which I highlighted above) is wrong. I suggest changing this to the following

 * This means, for example, that to the human eye it has the same apparent brightness (or luminance). It has the same radiance because, although the emitted power from a given area element is reduced by the cosine of the emission angle, the apparent size (solid angle) of the observed area, as seen by a viewer, is decreased by a corresponding amount. Therefore, its radiance (power per unit solid angle per unit projected source area) is the same.

 * Q Science (talk) 23:32, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

First Paragraph, again
It has the same radiance because, although the emitted power from a given area element is reduced by the cosine of the emission angle, the actual area of the surface visible to the viewer is increased by a corresponding amount (1/cosine).

 * How actual area of visible surface is increased, when observer is looking at surface at more oblique level? This is strange.

disambiguate angle and solid angle ?
In figure 1 and the associated paragraph d-Omega is variously referred to as both an angle and a solid angle. The result is it's not clear in Figure 1 if the segments are of equal angle or equal solid angle. In a 3-dimensional situation it doesn't make much sense that they would be both equal angles and equal solid angles, because the solid angle of a band around the hemisphere, of equal angle, increases as you approach the horizontal. I'd be very grateful if someone could clear up the confusion.

Araphid (talk) 10:34, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Absolutely. Geometrically, what d-Omega, d-Omega_0 D-A and d-A_0 refer to is not clear at all. Without further explanation it appears that the number of photons an observer sees is inversely proportional to the observing objects surface area. This is confusing.

Perhaps a figure clearly showing what dA_0 applies to and a rephrasing of the variables in geometrically general terms would go a long way to make this more article usable for calculations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.195.104.241 (talk) 15:09, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Backscattering yields a uniform full moon image.
There is no true photo of light scattered from a surface that obeys Lambert's cosine law.

The mean backscattering from the full moon is directed back to the sun because the scattering dipoles on the moon oscillate in a plane perpendicular to the coming sunlight.

Any calculation that does not take the direction of the polarizing dipoles into account will not be correct.

Backscattering yields a uniform moon image, as well as the earth's image and the images of all the planets and their moons.

Back-scattering from any surface will not depend on the surface inclination angle to the coming light, and a curved surface will look uniform. It is, therefore, not surprising that true images, that obey Lambert's cosine law, are difficult to find.

In the calculation of Lambert's cosine law, there is a hidden assumption that the scattering dipoles oscillate in all random directions in space. This is not the case with the moon, and probably with other examples. Urila (talk) 13:07, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

urila — Preceding unsigned comment added by Urila (talk • contribs) 00:37, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

The Scattered light is considered in the literature as a diffusive light, light that passed a number of scattering events before it left the scattering material. Diffusely scattered light must obey Lambert's Cosine scattering law. In the case of unidirectional light scattered backward from a surface of a sphere, the meaning is maximum scattering intensity in the middle of the sphere surface, and a decline to zero toward the periphery by the cosine law. The full moon looks uniform. People continue to assume that the light is diffusely scattered from it. More than that. The nearly uniform sphere image is common to all the planets and their moons, including the earth as observed from the moon. Out of thousands upon thousands of true photos, there is no single true photo that obeys Lambert's Cosine law. The only photos that do obey the law are rendered photos, photos that are at least partly simulated. Contrary to all that, if the scattering is assumed to be mainly a single event, then all the scattering dipoles are directly stimulated by the light radiation on the illuminated scattering material. Then scattering by them must be coherent, and then the full moon and all the other illuminated bodies, with similar illumination geometry, must be uniform, at least approximately. The full moon tells us that single event scattering is dominant. Maybe with small corrections of multiple scattering. Why is the single event dominant? It seems that the effect is geometrical and statistical. If we consider one event scattering, two event scattering, multiple event scattering, then the event probability will decline with the increasing number of scatterings. The single event has a probability of at least 50% and it is the strongest event.

Urila (talk) 09:40, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

The opposition surge and Lambert's Cosine Law
The opposition surge, the significant increase of 180 degrees backscattered light, is a well-established and well-documented phenomenon. See "Opposition surge" in Wikipedia, and the references therein. On the other hand, there is no single true photo that obeys Lambert's Cosine law, "Lambert's cosine law" in Wikipedia. The first figure in the article, "Lambert's cosine law" in Wikipedia, is an erroneous artist view.

Urila (talk) 09:12, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

R
In optics, Lambert's cosine law says that the radiant intensity or luminous intensity observed from an ideal diffusely reflecting surface or ideal diffuse radiator is directly proportional to the cosine of the angle θ between the direction of the incident light and the surface normal; I = I0cos(θ).[1][2] 2409:4042:2C1E:5C14:C0C4:2FFF:7ADA:503E (talk) 08:12, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

The Symbol for radiance/luminance is L
In the interesting "Details of equal brightness effect" section Radiance (a certain number of photons/s per meter squared per steradian) is shown with the symbol I and Io. This is confusing because with SI conventions I is used for intensity (e.g. photons/s per steradian). The correct symbol for radiance/luminance is L. Jack Hogan (talk) 08:47, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Lambertian Scatterers section Inaccurate
"When an area element is radiating as a result of being illuminated by an external source, the irradiance (energy or photons /time/area) landing on that area element will be proportional to the cosine of the angle between the illuminating source and the normal"

This is only true for a directional light source, like a light bulb. Is it true on the peak of a mountain range with an overcast sky, for instance? Of course not. The point is that while the input to a Lambertian reflector can be from any random direction, its output is omnidirectional in the hemisphere above it in the proportion suggested by the cosine law. What matters for the input is the number of photons/s that fall onto the surface of interest, regardless of where they came from. And for that irradiance/illuminance the output is predetermined by the cosine law. Jack Hogan (talk) 09:15, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:Lambert's cosine law


text:
User:RichBlinne

This is the home page of Rich Blinne.

I am currently editting the following articles:

 * Westminster Larger Catechism
 * Reformed Soteriology
 * Justification (theology)
 * Electron
 * Andromeda I

My blog is the [The Blinne Blog].

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: User:RichBlinne


text: Category:Formula One engine manufacturers


text:
Virius Lupus

Virius Lupus (c. 160 – after 205) (possibly Lucius Virius Lupus) was a Roman soldier and politician of the late 2nd and early 3rd century.

Biography
Virius Lupus was the first member of the gens Virii to attain high office in the Roman Empire. His early career is unknown, but prior to 196, he would have been appointed as consul suffectus. He is first attested as serving as Legatus Augusti pro praetore at Germania Inferior, and supported Septimius Severus during the civil war that followed the murder of Pertinax. In 196 his troops were defeated by Decimus Clodius Albinus as the fight for the throne intensified.

After Severus' victory in the civil wars, Virius was appointed Governor of Britannia in 197. Severus sent him to Britain immediately to recover the province from the rebellions that had swept it following Clodius Albinus' removal of most of the garrison to press his claim for the throne the previous year.

In the north he was obliged to buy peace from the Maeatae. Fearful that they would ally with the Caledonian Confederacy and unable to secure troop reinforcements from Severus, Lupus had no choice but to pay the rebels in return for their withdrawal and the return of a few prisoners. Lupus slowly restored the forts in the Pennines to Roman control although Hadrian's Wall was not rebuilt until c. 205.

His governorship was assisted by the arrival of Sextus Varius Marcellus as provincial procurator and in who can be seen the germ of the later division of Britain into two provinces. He served as governor until 201 or 202.

It is assumed that Virius was the father of Lucius Virius Agricola, consul ordinarius in 230, and of Lucius Virius Lupus Iulianus, consul ordinarius in 232. He may have been related to Quintus Virius Egnatius Sulpicius Priscus, who appears to have been a suffect consul either during the reign of Septimius Severus or Caracalla

title: Virius Lupus


text:
User talk:RichBlinne

Justification article
Hi,

I noticed that you appeared in the edit history of the justification (theology) article. I recently made major changes to the article in an effort to move it to NPOV. If you have any suggestions for improvement (style, content, whatever), please leave a comment on the talk page for that article. The goal is to get the article to the point that the POV and cleanup templates can be removed.

Thanks, --jrcagle 20:16, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

title: User talk:RichBlinne


text:
Antoine Lahad

Antoine Lahad  (1927 – 10 September 2015) was the leader of the South Lebanon Army (SLA) from 1984 until 2000, when the army withdrew from Southern Lebanon and was dissolved.

Early life
Born into a Maronite Catholic family in 1927 in the village of Kfar Qatra, Chouf District. He graduated from the Lebanese Military Academy in 1952.

Military career
Lahad took control of the SLA in 1984, following the death of Saad Haddad the founder of the SLA. After several meetings with many political leaders in Lebanon from all religions he agreed to take on the problematic south because his career and stature would allow him to hold together an army from all the Lebanese religions. Lahad was a Lebanese Army major general who was close to the Lebanese President, Camille Chamoun, a Maronite.

Military career in the SLA
While commanding the SLA General Lahad formed three regiments mainly from Druze, Shia and Christians who fought together to take back control of Lebanese territory from all the Palestinian factions who controlled much of southern Lebanon. During his service he never cut contact with the capital and all leaders from all political factions and religions kept visiting him asking him for help on several matters. He re-instated the salaries of the Lebanese army soldiers in the south which had previously been cut off.

Trouble with Lebanon and Hezbollah
Lahad was condemned to death by Hezbollah following Israel's occupation of southern Lebanon. Men were required to sign written pledges not to visit with Lahad or his people if they were traveling into southern Lebanon. His headquarters were at Marjayoun, which flew an Israeli flag flanked by two flags of Lebanon. Also in the compound was the Pat Robertson CBN broadcast center.

Assassination attempt
In 1988, 21-year-old Souha Bechara tried to assassinate Lahad. She had been raised in the Eastern Orthodox Church and had become a member of the Communist party. She was tasked with assassinating Lahad. Bechara disguised herself as an aerobics instructor to visit with Lahad's family. On November 7, 1988, while she was having tea with Lahad's wife, he returned home. Bechara shot him twice in the chest. She was detained by his security team. Lahad spent eight weeks in the hospital and suffered health complications leaving his left arm paralyzed. Soha Bechara was arrested and sent to the Khiam Israeli prison. She spent ten years in Khiam prison and suffered six years of solitary confinement in a tiny cell.

Israeli withdrawal
When Israel withdrew from southern Lebanon in 2000, Lahad was determined to carry on against Hezbollah. He pleaded for support from Israel: ""I need three things: 1 - I need Israel not to stop the money, keep the flow of money coming so I can keep paying my soldiers; 2- I need logistical support so the SLA will have adequate ammunition; 3- I need the border to remain open because I don't have sophisticated hospitals in the South, and in this instance all my wounded should be transported to northern Israel to be treated. When I'll have those three things, I can hold for 200 years. That's all I need.""

SLA collapse
Lahad never received the support he asked for, and the SLA collapsed following Israel's withdrawal from southern Lebanon. At the time, Lahad was in Paris trying to convince the French authorities to send troops to replace his army.

He came to Israel after the remainder of the SLA disintegrated. In Lebanon, Lahad was sentenced to death for treason in absentia in case he ever returned. In a meeting with the Israeli Government Coordinator, Uri Lubrani, in May 2000, Lahad expressed deep concern surrounding the appropriate treatment of SLA members who ended up in Israel following the withdrawal. Contrary to contemporary media reports, Lahad stated that Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Barak, had not tricked him. He highlighted the importance of his country's cooperation with Israel and cited the United Nations Security Council resolution 425 as a legitimate reason for Barak's withdrawal of Israeli armed forces. Lubrani assured Lahad that SLA members would receive appropriate treatment and thanked him and his men for their "long struggle for peace". Soon afterwards Lahad went to France to meet up with his family. Despite having family members living in France, the French authorities denied him permission to live in the country.

Retirement to Israel and death
After being refused the right to settle in France, Lahad moved to Israel. He released a Hebrew language autobiography in 2004, entitled, In the Midst of a Storm: An Autobiography.

In November 2006, Lahad had an interview with Ynet. He asserted his opinion that Syria was behind the assassination of Lebanese Industry Minister Pierre Amine Gemayel, "“I have no doubt about who assassinated Lebanese Minister Pierre Gemayel last week. It was the Syrians, there’s no question. It could be that one of their proxies in Lebanon carried out the actual assassination, but the order came from Damascus.”"

In May 2014, a Lebanese court sentenced him to death in absentia for High Treason, Intelligence with the Enemy and Accessory to Kidnapping, Violence and Murder.

Lahad died in Paris on 10 September 2015 from a heart attack.

title: Antoine Lahad


text:
Sundown town

Sundown towns, also known as sunset towns, gray towns, or sundowner towns, are all-white municipalities or neighborhoods in the United States. They were most prevalent before the mid-20th century, and are considered towns that practiced or still practice a form of racial segregation by excluding non-whites via some combination of discriminatory local laws, intimidation or violence. The term came into use because of signs that directed "colored people" to leave town by sundown.

Entire sundown counties and sundown suburbs were created as well. While the number of sundown towns decreased following the civil rights movement, some commentators hold that certain 21st-century practices perpetuate a modified version of the sundown town.

Discriminatory policies and actions distinguish sundown towns from towns that have no black residents for demographic reasons. Historically, towns have been confirmed as sundown towns by newspaper articles, county histories, and Works Progress Administration files; this information has been corroborated by tax or U.S. census records showing an absence of black people or a sharp drop in the black population between two censuses.

History
The earliest legal restrictions on the nighttime activities and movements of African Americans and other racial minorities date back to the colonial era. The general court and legislative assembly of New Hampshire passed "An Act To Prevent Disorders In The Night" in 1714: "Whereas great disorders, insolencies and burglaries are oft times raised and committed in the night time by Indian, Negro, and Molatto Servants and Slaves to the Disquiet and hurt of her Majesty's subjects, No Indian, Negro, or Molatto is to be from Home after 9 o'clock."

Notices emphasizing and re-affirming the curfew were published in The New Hampshire Gazette in 1764 and 1771. Following the American Revolution, Virginia was the first state to prohibit the entry of all Free Negros. According to historian Kate Masur, American laws restricting where Black people could live drew inspiration from the English Poor Laws, which were implemented in the Kingdom of England during the Tudor period to restrict the movements of England's poor. These laws, which were implemented to ensure that municipal authorities were under no legal obligation to care for vagrants, proved to be a source of inspiration for American officials who aimed to prevent Black Americans from settling in their communities.

Following the end of the Reconstruction era, thousands of towns and counties across the United States became sundown localities, as part of the imposition of Jim Crow laws and other segregationist practices. In most cases, the exclusion was official town policy or was promulgated by the community's real estate agents via exclusionary covenants governing who could buy or rent property. In others, the policy was enforced through intimidation. This intimidation could occur in several ways, including harassment by law enforcement officers. Though widely believed to be a thing of the past—racially restrictive covenants were struck down by the Supreme Court in its 1948 Shelley v. Kraemer decision—many hundreds of towns continue to effectively exclude black people and other minorities in the 21st century.

In 1844, Oregon, which had banned slavery, banned African Americans from the territory altogether. Those who failed to leave could expect to receive lashings under a law known as the "Peter Burnett Lash Law", named for Provisional Supreme Judge Peter Burnett. No persons were ever lashed under the law; it was quickly amended to replace lashing with forced labor, and eventually repealed the following year after a change in the makeup of the legislature. However, additional laws aimed at African Americans entering Oregon were ratified in 1849 and 1857, the last of which was not repealed until 1926. This law in Oregon was the foreshadowing of future laws restricting where minorities could live, not only in Oregon but in other jurisdictions.

Outside Oregon, other places looked to laws and legislation to restrict black people from residing within cities, towns and states. In 1853, new black residents were banned from moving to the state of Illinois. Those new residents who remained more than ten days, were caught in the state, and were unable to pay the fine were to be punished by being sold at auction and in effect enslaved for a temporary period to work off the fine. Although this law faced significant resistance, especially in Illinois' small black community, it was not repealed until the end of the Civil War in 1865. Similar bans on all black migration were passed in Michigan, Ohio and Iowa.

New laws were enacted in the 20th century. One example is Louisville, Kentucky, whose mayor proposed a law in 1911 that would restrict black people from owning property in certain parts of the city. This city ordinance reached public attention when it was challenged in the U.S. Supreme Court in the case of Buchanan v. Warley in 1917. Ultimately, the court decided that the laws passed in Louisville were unconstitutional, thus setting the legal precedent that similar laws could not exist or be passed in the future. However, this one legal victory did not stop towns from developing into sundown towns. City planners and real estate companies used their power and authority to ensure that white communities remained white, and black communities remained black. These were private individuals making decisions to personally benefit themselves, their companies' profits, or their cities' alleged safety, so their methods in creating sundown towns were often ignored by the courts. In addition to unfair housing rules, citizens turned to violence and harassment in making sure that black people would not remain in their cities after sundown. Whites in the North felt that their way of life was threatened by the increased minority populations moving into their neighborhoods, and racial tensions started to build. This often boiled over into violence, sometimes extreme, such as the 1943 Detroit race riot.

Since the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s, and especially since the Fair Housing Act of 1968 prohibition of racial discrimination in the sale, rental and financing of housing, the number of sundown towns has decreased. However, as sociologist James W. Loewen wrote in his 2005 book, Sundown Towns: A Hidden Dimension of American Racism, it is impossible to count precisely the number of sundown towns at any given time because most towns have not kept records of the ordinances or signs that marked the town's sundown status. He further noted that hundreds of cities across America have been sundown towns at some point in their history.

Additionally, Loewen wrote that sundown status meant more than just African Americans being unable to live in those towns. Any black people who entered or were found in sundown towns after sunset were subject to harassment, threats and violence, including lynching.

The U.S. Supreme Court case of Brown v. Board of Education declared segregation of schools unconstitutional in 1954. Loewen argued that the case caused some municipalities in the South to become sundown towns: Missouri, Tennessee and Kentucky saw drastic drops in African-American populations living in those states following the decision.

In 2019, sociologist Heather O'Connell wrote that sundown towns are "(primarily) a thing of the past", but writer Morgan Jerkins disagreed, saying: "Sundown towns have never gone away." Historian James W. Loewen notes persisting effects of sundown towns' violently enforced segregation even after they may have been integrated to a small degree, a phenomenon he called "second-generation sundown towns."

Ethnic exclusions
African Americans were not the only minority group not allowed to live in white towns. One example, according to Loewen, is that, in 1870, Chinese people made up one-third of Idaho's population. Following a wave of violence and an 1886 anti-Chinese convention in Boise, almost none remained by 1910.

The towns of Minden and Gardnerville in Nevada had an ordinance from 1917 to 1974 that required Native Americans to leave the towns by 6:30 p.m. each day. A whistle, later a siren, was sounded at 6 p.m. daily, alerting Native Americans to leave by sundown. In 2021, the state of Nevada passed a law prohibiting the appropriation of Native American imagery by the mascots of schools, and the sounding of sirens that were once associated with sundown ordinances. Despite this law, Minden continued to play its siren for two more years, claiming that it was a nightly tribute to first responders. An additional state law in 2023 led Minden to end the siren.

In Nevada, the ban was expanded to include Japanese Americans.

Two examples of the numerous road signs documented during the first half of the 20th century include:
 * In Colorado: "No Mexicans After Night"
 * In Connecticut: "Whites Only Within City Limits After Dark"

In her 2011 article "Preemption, Patchwork Immigration Laws, and the Potential for Brown Sundown Towns" in the Fordham Law Review, Maria Marulanda outlines the possibility for non-blacks to be excluded from towns in the United States. She argues that immigration laws and ordinances in certain municipalities could create situations similar to those experienced by African Americans in sundown towns. Hispanic Americans are likely to suffer, despite the purported target being undocumented immigrants, in these cases of racial exclusion.

From 1851 to at least 1876, Antioch, California had a sundown ordinance that barred Chinese residents from being out in public after dark. In 1876, white residents drove the Chinese out of town and then burned down the Chinatown section of the city.

Chinese Americans were also excluded from most of San Francisco, leading to the establishment of Chinatown.

Travel guides

Described by former NAACP President Julian Bond as "one of the survival tools of segregated life", The Negro Motorist Green Book (at times titled The Negro Traveler's Green Book or The Negro Motorist Green-Book, and commonly referred to simply as the "Green Book") was an annual segregation-era guidebook for African American motorists, published by New York travel agent and former Hackensack, New Jersey, letter carrier Victor H. Green. It was published in the United States from 1936 to 1966, during the Jim Crow era, when discrimination against non-whites was widespread.

Road trips for African Americans were fraught with inconveniences and dangers because of racial segregation, racial profiling by police, the phenomenon of travelers just "disappearing", and the existence of numerous sundown towns. According to author Kate Kelly, "there were at least 10,000 'sundown towns' in the United States as late as the 1960s; in a 'sundown town' nonwhites had to leave the city limits by dusk, or they could be picked up by the police or worse. These towns were not limited to the South—they ranged from Levittown, N.Y., to Glendale, Calif., and included the majority of municipalities in Illinois." The Green Book also advised drivers to wear, or have ready, a chauffeur's cap and, if stopped, relate that "they were delivering a car for a white person."

On June 7, 2017, the NAACP issued a warning to prospective African-American travelers to Missouri. This is the first NAACP warning ever covering an entire state. The NAACP conference president suggested that, if prospective African-American travelers must go to Missouri, they travel with bail money in hand.

Sundown suburbs
Many suburban areas in the United States were incorporated following the establishment of Jim Crow laws. The majority of suburbs were made up of all white residents from the time they were first created. Most sundown suburbs were created between 1906 and 1968. By 1970, at the peak of the Civil Rights era, some sundown suburbs had already begun to desegregate. Harassment and inducements contributed to keeping African Americans out of new suburban areas.

Sundown towns in popular culture

 * Gentleman's Agreement (1947), is known as "the only feature film [of its era] to treat sundown towns seriously." However, it dealt with a town that excluded Jewish people rather than black people. According to James W. Loewen, "The anti-Nazi ideology opened more sundown suburbs to Jews than to African Americans... Gentleman's Agreement, Elia Kazan's 1948 Academy Award-winning movie [exposed] Darien, Connecticut, as an anti-Jewish sundown town."
 * The Fugitive Kind (1959), a film directed by Sidney Lumet and starring Marlon Brando and Anna Magnani, mentions sundown towns. A Southern sheriff tells Brando's character about a sign in the small town that reads, "Nigger, don't let the sun go down on you in this county." The same sign is shown in Tennessee Williams's play Orpheus Descending, upon which the film is based.
 * In her memoir I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings (1969), poet Maya Angelou describes Mississippi as inhospitable to African Americans after dark: "Don't let the sun set on you here nigger, Mississippi."
 * Oprah Winfrey visited Forsyth County, Georgia, on a 1987 episode of her television show following the 1987 Forsyth County protests. The protests stemmed from continued racial conflict and reputation as a sundown-town area into the 1960s, following the expulsion of African Americans in the 1920s.
 * Trouble Behind (1991), a documentary by Robby Henson, examines the history and legacy of racism in Corbin, Kentucky, a small railroad community noteworthy both as the home of Colonel Sanders' Kentucky Fried Chicken and for "its race riots of 1919, during which over two hundred blacks were loaded onto boxcars and shipped out of town." The film aired at the 1991 Sundance Film Festival and was nominated for the Grand Jury Prize.
 * No Niggers, No Jews, No Dogs (2000), a play by John Henry Redwood.
 * Banished: How Whites Drove Blacks Out of Town in America (2006), a documentary by Marco Williams that was inspired by Elliot Jaspin's book Buried in the Bitter Waters: The Hidden History of Racial Cleansing in America (2007).
 * Sundown Town (2011), a play by Kevin D. Cohea.
 * The Injustice Files: Sundown Towns (February 24, 2014), an Investigation Discovery documentary by filmmaker Keith Beauchamp, executive produced by Al Roker.
 * Green Book (2018), the Academy Award winner for Best Picture, is a comedy drama about a tour of the Deep South in the 1960s by African-American classical and jazz pianist Don Shirley (Mahershala Ali), who is arrested in a Southern town for being out after sundown.
 * In the first episode of the 2020 television series Lovecraft Country (2020) (TV series based on the 2016 book written by Matt Ruff). The protagonists embarking on a road trip across 1950s Jim Crow America are pulled over by a police officer who informs them they are in a "sundown county" and threatens that they could be lynched if they don't leave the county before sundown.

title: Sundown town


text:
User talk:Chuq/Archive2

Archives: Archive 1 (Dec 2003 - Nov 2004)

Corboco: Thks for info Chug (yours of 31/10)

No worries. :) Is there any chance you'd be able to set up the tables all the way back to 1990 (which is as far as I've gotten so far, though I might've finished back to 1987 by the end of the day)? The Senate ending and beginning in different years throws me a little bit. Ambi 00:46, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Article Licensing
Hi, I've started a drive to get users to multi-license all of their contributions that they've made to either (1) all U.S. state, county, and city articles or (2) all articles, using the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike (CC-by-sa) v1.0 and v2.0 Licenses or into the public domain if they prefer. The CC-by-sa license is a true free documentation license that is similar to Wikipedia's license, the GFDL, but it allows other projects, such as WikiTravel, to use our articles. Since you are among the top 1000 Wikipedians by edits, I was wondering if you would be willing to multi-license all of your contributions or at minimum those on the geographic articles. Over 90% of people asked have agreed. For More Information:
 * Multi-Licensing FAQ - Lots of questions answered
 * Multi-Licensing Guide
 * Free the Rambot Articles Project

To allow us to track those users who muli-license their contributions, many users copy and paste the " " template into their user page, but there are other options at Template messages/User namespace. The following examples could also copied and pasted into your user page:

 * Option 1
 * I agree to multi-license all my contributions, with the exception of my user pages, as described below:

OR
 * Option 2
 * I agree to multi-license all my contributions to any U.S. state, county, or city article as described below:

Or if you wanted to place your work into the public domain, you could replace " " with "  ". If you only prefer using the GFDL, I would like to know that too. Please let me know what you think at my talk page. It's important to know either way so no one keeps asking. -- Ram-Man (comment| talk) 19:33, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)

RFC pages on VfD
Should RFC pages be placed on VfD to be deleted? I'm considering removing Requests for comment/Slrubenstein, Requests for comment/Jwrosenzweig and Requests for comment/John Kenney from WP:VFD. Each of them was listed by CheeseDreams. Your comments on whether I should do this would be appreciated. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:27, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Bert Newton
You voted for Bert Newton, this week's Australian Collaboration of the week. Please come and help it become a featured-standard article. Thanks.

Australian politicians categories
Is there any chance you could come on IRC? I'm trying to straighten these out, but I'd like to discuss some of these changes before making them, particularly seeing as you created a few of these categories. Ambi 04:44, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Image:CradleMountainTas.jpg
As you may or may not know there is a huge image tagging project going on to get all of the images in wikipedia the correct copyright tag. I came across your image (Image:CradleMountainTas.jpg) - which btw is an amazing picture - and tagged it as. I hope this is ok, as it is the license you agree to when you upload something to the wikipedia. Anyway, if that isn't the right tag, you can always go re-tag it. If you have any questions leave me a message! --MaxPower 15:30, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)

Category talk:Cities by country

 * Halló Chuq! Please take a look at Category talk:Cities by country. Thanks and regards Gangleri | [ Th] | T 10:15, 2005 Jan 31 (UTC)

Vandalism of your user page
Hi Chuq,

As a courtesy I've reverted your user page to your most recent version. This follows an attack of vandalism by a fellow user upset over our reverting of the Big Brother (Australian TV series) article. The user in question has been informed of how we prefer things to operate around here by both myself and a fellow editor. It appears it was a once off attack only and that the situation has now calmed down. See here and here for more information if required. Longhair 19:49, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

World Wind
Hi, if your still keen to make World Wind maps, I left some requests on the Australian wikiproject page. Thanks--nixie 10:26, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Nice to see you editing again some - I was hoping you hadn't left us for good. Ambi 15:47, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I used your Snowy Mountains image on the page - despite the request on the Australian wikiproject page, it didn't seem to have been added to the article - regards --AYArktos 22:19, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

G'day Chug, I have added you under the list of Aussie adminers under the page List of Australian Wikipedians. I have also bolded your username under Tassie.

Cheers Ianblair23 02:05, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Chuq, being very new to wiki - I've done a job on your (?) Hydro job - and would very interested in your response. Historiography of the HEC and the west coast tends to gravitate towards either hagiographies of the HEC engineers or greenies - having lived in Queenstown and also being a foundation member of the tws, I consider the HEC entry needed some counterpoints as it read as if it had been dones by a hydro pr person - leaving a lot of difficult gaps. Best Wishes Vcxlor

Hey, getting back to you... I saw what you did to The 12th Man, and thought you did a good job on it. I think we should keep it that way. Thanks for your help. --Matt Yeager 22:20, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

Rove
You should't really stop people editing the rove article. You can't really think he is funny.

 * Hi Chuq. As I unprotected the Rove article, I'll add it to my watchlist and keep an eye on it. I see it's been hit twice since unprotection already and I realise now why you protected the article and resorted to blocking edits altogether. Sheesh! It didn't take long at all. -- Longhair | Talk 05:48, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks
Thank you for your vote of support on my recent RfA. I was quite surprised by the amount of support I received, and wish to extend my thanks to you for taking the time to support my nomination for adminship. -- Longhair | Talk 12:18, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for the prompt response. Much appreciated --Doc (?) 09:46, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Avram
Based on the content, writing style and complete lack of objectivity I am convinced that the editor who keeps reverting this article (effectively turning it into a badly-written self-promotion), is the Duke of Avram himself - so as a primary source he really ought not be contributing to the article. I note that he has made no contribution to Wikipedia outside this article. --Gene_poole 00:39, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Hi again. This Avram thing has gotten beyond a joke, and entered the realm of plain old-fashioned vandalism. Do you want to report him, or shall I ? --Gene_poole 13:38, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Education in Tasmania
G'day Chuq

Rick Boatright has posted a question on the talk page of the Education in Tasmania article.

I feel you probably will be the best to answer it.

Regards -- Ianblair23 23:58, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Lennon
Chuq, please stop reverting the edits to Lennon Murphy, The Lennon Sisters and Neil Lennon. I'm just writing the not-related sentence to not let anyone be confused with John Lennon. There is nothing wrong with that. So, stop reverting the articles. -- Mike Garcia 14:20, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Vasco da Gama
An article that you've edited before (Vasco da Gama) is nominated for Article Improvement Drive. If you want go there and vote. Thanks. Gameiro 02:58, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Tasmanian politics articles
Thanks for putting Paula Wriedt and Tasmanian legislative election, 2002 on the new articles page - those anon articles truly were dreck. I've given them a bit of a cleanup (particularly the election one) - any chance you could take a look over them? By the way, do you ever come on IRC these days? Ambi 14:43, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for un-vandalising my user page, and for protecting Avram. I've been doing some research, and it seems that the Duke has not been a member of Sorrel Council since at least 2003 (which is as far back as their online minutes go), so that claim needs to be changed in the article.--Gene_poole 05:58, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

The Game
Wtf is this? I see that it survived your Vfd nom, is it real? Fawcett5 18:56, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Sydney FC Picture
Love the picture you added to Aussie Stadium :) --Tancred

Everything Linux
I saw you cleaned up Everything Linux and added it to new Australian articles - hence I noticed it. I don't think it is sufficiently notable and am considering nominating it for deletion. What do you think? Regards--User:AYArktos | Talk 08:10, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your response. As you suggested I have placed a message on AWNB.  I have also left a message for the new contributer who made a number of edits to the article asking him about notability.  I am just a little wary of a business promoting itself therough Wikipedia and not being otherwise worthy of an entry - unlike say such great topics as Pokemon cards ...--User:AYArktos |  Talk 11:08, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Strahan
Chuq, McDermott is a family name long established in Strahan, the oldest used to be the Warden of the strahan council when it had its own, and he also was a co-writer of the definitive book on huon pine forestry around the Macquarie Harbour. Googling west coast tasmania is pointless, ask me I have started tas-geo stubs for the area. However I back you on removing Kyron and Beef. You are correct! As for the claim that anyone other than the big hotel business that now runs the west coast 'breathing life back' has gotta be kidding!vcxlor 07:22, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I tried searching for the strahan thing as well and there is certainly no such place as the "House of Beef" there is however a motel or something owned by a mcdermott family but no mention of a restruant. --Melkior 22:29, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

My RfA
Hi Chuq! Just wanted to thank you for strongly supporting my RfA. I hope I will be able to live up to the confidence placed in me. --Cyberjunkie | Talk 04:54, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

at the reference desk
Dear Chuq. did you answer my question about the origin of a quote at the wikipedia reference desk?

Australian time zones
Just a heads-up to my response on Talk:Time zone. --Russell E 05:02, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Template/outline for musician articles?
Hey Chuq, just a request for some advice. I was just wondering if you follow any kind of template or use an outline when creating a new article on a musician/band? Or if there's some "ideal" music article that you follow? I did Clare Bowditch actually based on how you'd done Epicure, but there's probably a better way to go about it to ensure nothing is missed.

Also, do you think a separate Clare Bowditch and the Feeding Set article is warranted? I fixed a couple of links, so nothing links there now, but there was a couple. Following the precedent of Paul Kelly, just an article on Clare would suffice... but then, CB does not quite have the stature of PK. :) cheers. pfctdayelise 02:24, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

My talk page
Hello. Just wondering if you wouldn't mind unprotecting my talk page. I've got a few changes I think I can make before the Avram vandal reappears to start vandalising it again. :-) --Gene_poole 04:51, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Andy Lee
Thanks for clearing that up. I'm no fan of boxing... and even less of Korean Singing!... but back in 2004 people here in Ireland got really excited about Andy Lee because he had a good shot at winning an Olympic medal... however he failed to and returned to obscurity! CGorman 19:10, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Andy Lee
Thanks for clearing that up. I'm no fan of boxing... and even less of Korean Singing!... but back in 2004 people here in Ireland got really excited about Andy Lee because he had a good shot at winning an Olympic medal... however he failed to and returned to obscurity! CGorman 19:10, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Category:Australian politicians by scope
Well caught. I went on a bit of a cat-renaming rampage this past evening to try and knock Australia's categories about various political figures into line with what's shaping up elsewhere. In brief, there's been some moves afoot to distinguish between Fooish politicians (which is a nationality-occupation pair, no different than "French philosophers" or "American journalists," which has no bearing on where and when they carried out their work) and "People who hold public office in the various levels of government in the Commonwealth of Australia" which is country-specific, not nationality-specific. To illustrate, Kofi Annan is a Ghanaian politician, but not a polical office-holder in Ghana. Ronald Munro-Ferguson was a British politician, but a political office-holder in Australia. Anyway, Category:Australian politicians by scope can be found in much the same capacity as Category:Political office-holders in Australia, with the state categories moved up a level to Category:Australian politicians. -The Tom 05:53, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Moved from user page
Hello there Charles, I'm really (and I mean it) really sorry to do this to your page, but I've spent 25 minutes trying to work out how to contact you and obviously I'm dumb beacuse I haven't worked it out yet.

As you are an administrator and edit other people's edits or remove them, I think it should be clearer to us plebs how to contact you to discuss what you've done.

There is a link to your page from any edits that you have carried out....I think that on your page there should be an obvious link displayed to enable contact to be made with you.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Corboco (talk • contribs)

Television Primetime templates
Something along the lines of this: Ianblair23 (talk) 06:15, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

 * Chuq, the templates that I created are up for deletion. However, I have come up with a compromise. I would appreciate your thoughts on the matter. Cheers -- Ianblair23 (talk) 13:29, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

North west coast deletion
I missed your comment of a week ago in the deletion debate about the North west coast of Tasmania article that the speedy deletion of the article deleted the redirect which had history that was different. Not sure if I am making sense if you don't remember the debate well. The history in the first article was also a copyvio (different source). The editor seemed pretty keen on copying and pasting. The speedy deletion in my view only related to copy right and had nothing to do with the merits of the topic. Regards--A Y  Arktos   (Talk) 09:43, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Strahan (sigh) again
What are your thoughts on the saga? I have test1 the latest, but i get the feeling that who/what ever it/they are, will take that as encouragement. Do we simply ignore them? vcxlor 13:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorell
Whew, they get in everywhere eh?vcxlor 07:59, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Chuq, an anon (you not logged in?) deleted the Anime stuff from Sorell Bakery today as well. Is the bakery actually worthy of an article, or should it be either merged to Sorell, Tasmania or deleted completely as unencyclopaedic? --Scott Davis Talk 09:00, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

1911 snapshot
OK, you might have a good reason, but the reason for putting it in as a 'snaposhot' was the point of interest that the relatively "unknown" queenstown ( the other queenstowns are the south african and irish, no new zealand )hits an EB entry - that in itself seemed worth putting it in. To simply edit in to the main art it loses meaning.... vcxlor 06:18, 9 November 2005 (UTC) I was hoping you might respond to thisvcxlor 02:09, 10 November 2005 (UTC) Thanks for your considered reply, i appreciate that. I inherited a set of the 1911 encyclopedia, and had until; yesterday never thought to see which west coast items might have landed an entry! I dunno, maybe, if I do a long check of the 1911 volume, and fine that it is the only entry (at least 3 or 4 volumes are badly damaged) then I would probably put the snapshot in as the only ref from that encyc. if there are others we would go with the suggestion you put in my talk - that's be fine. Sorry to be nuisance vcxlor 03:01, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Taroona High School
Thank you Chuq for fixing the vandalism at the Taroona High School article. Why is there no one watching the WP:AIV page? I have reported two problematic contributors and they are still vandalising right now. Yamaguchi先生 08:18, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Jim Wilkinson
You told me to go to your talk page and reply. So first you delete my page, and then tag it? What is your problem? I'm never going to get this done with you on my butt! This is absolutely getting ridiculous. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lanab (talk • contribs) 08:44, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, the page I wrote, which I clearly wasn't done. People can format and edit any page at anytime, regardless of whether or not it was tagged. I don't think that was your purposes in tagging the page. Considering you knew full well I was doing it as an assignment, and it was going to be going through to editing processes. Flagging the page means it isn't up to standard and needs "cleaning up." Thanks to you, my efforts have been rendered useless, and I will have nothing to show. I am officially discouraged of ever using wikipedia again, for anything. You can thank yourself for that.

strange links
Hi, just asking you cause youre an admin, not sure who I should ask, but I just noticed that theres more than 600 links to this weird page that doesnt exist - WIKIPEDIA IS COMMUNISM 2 - Special:Whatlinkshere/WIKIPEDIA_IS_COMMUNISM_2 wonder if someone has put in some sneaky link to it somehow? The page has already been deleted 5 times Special:Undelete/WIKIPEDIA_IS_COMMUNISM_2Astrokey44 03:01, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Ianblair23's RfA
G'day Chuq, I would like to thank you for supporting me on my RfA. It closed with the final tally of 57/0/0. I can only hope I can live up to the expectations that this wonderful community of ours demands from each of its administrators. If you ever need anything, please just let me know. Cheers! -- Ianblair23 (talk) 03:01, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Rivalry/Idiosyncracy
G'day from west oz again. I think we're both missing the point about tas/mainland rivalry. I do think the 'what language is spoken in Tas' is well worth putting somewhere. And I think the points we're playing with in the rivalry talk section are not actually aspects of rivalry, but really the problems of mainlanders misconceptions - that's not rivalry! Maybe we need an article, "Popular Folkore of Mainland Australia about Tasmania" or something along that line. vcxlor

Yeah the problem with putting the two head stuff in it does invite trouble in itself. Popular cultural misrepresentations of Tasmania - fro being left off the map, 'inbreeding' jokes (I dont think we should even go down that road really), and other misreps do need to be written carefully, IMHO.vcxlor 03:41, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

About my Vandalizing
I merely am trying to show how bogus that entire list is... The vandalizing list that I made is sadly just as reliable as the current revision. That list should be taken down until it's corrected from ONE single source rather than opiniated sources like "Elvis Pressly Fans' Estimation". What kind of a source is that? Estrimations can be VERY off track... I'm just trying to show that because that page is so horribly construed with misinformation that it should be taken down until the right facts are put up, so that people don't look at it and come away with incorrect facts while it's in the midst of being repaired. AdmiralTreyDavid

Cnwb's RfA
Chuq, Thanks so very much for supporting my Request for Admin. The final result was 38/0/0. I'm looking forward to spending my summer holidays shut away in a darkened room, drinking G&Ts and playing with my new tools ;-) Please accept this Tim Tam as a token of my gratitude. Cnwb 22:31, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Chuq/Archive2


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John Shirley-Quirk

John Stanton Shirley-Quirk CBE (28 August 1931 – 7 April 2014) was an English bass-baritone. A member of the English Opera Group from 1964 to 1976, he gave premiere performances of several operatic and vocal works by Benjamin Britten, recording these and other works under the composer's direction. He also sang and recorded a wide range of works by other composers, ranging from Handel through Tchaikovsky to Henze.

Biography
Shirley-Quirk was born in Liverpool and sang in the choir at Holt High School (today the Childwall Sports & Science Academy). He played the violin and was awarded a scholarship. While studying chemistry and physics at Liverpool University, he studied voice with Austen Carnegie. Shirley-Quirk was a lecturer in chemistry at Acton Technical College until 1957 and played a part in events leading to the formation of Brunel University. In that period he resumed his vocal studies with Roy Henderson. According to Imogen Holst, it was during this period while "earning his living as a schoolmaster" that Shirley-Quirk joined the Purcell Singers, performing at the Aldeburgh Festival. He was a Vicar Choral (choir singer or lay-clerk) at St Paul's Cathedral from 1961 to 1962.

In 1961 Shirley-Quirk was understudy for the role of Gregor Mittenhofer in the British premiere of Henze's Elegy for Young Lovers at the Glyndebourne Festival, and in the following year made his operatic debut in Debussy's Pelléas et Mélisande as the Doctor. In 1963 he took part as a soloist in Bach's Christmas Oratorio in Ipswich, which was attended by Benjamin Britten, who introduced himself. Shirley-Quirk subsequently joined Britten's English Opera Group (EOG) in 1964. His first role with the EOG was to create the part of the ferryman in Curlew River, followed by the premiere performances of Canticle IV: Journey of the Magi. With the EOG, he made his Covent Garden debut in 1973, creating the multiple roles specially written for him in Death in Venice, in which he appears as various antagonists to the character of Gustav von Aschenbach. He made his debut at New York's Metropolitan Opera in the same roles the following year. It was also in 1974 that he sang at the Last Night of the Proms in Walton's Belshazzar's Feast.

With Scottish Opera he sang the roles among others of Count Almaviva, Don Giovanni, Don Alfonso, Mittenhofer (1970, Edinburgh Festival), Eugene Onegin and Golaud. He created the role of Gil-Martin in Thomas Wilson's Confessions of a Justified Sinner (1976).

In Shirley-Quirk's wide concert repertory, he was particularly noted as a fine interpreter of Friar Lawrence in Berlioz's Roméo et Juliette, and in the solos in Bach's Passions, Handel's oratorios, Haydn's The Creation and The Seasons, Brahms's German Requiem, Elgar's The Dream of Gerontius (which he recorded with Britten conducting) and Tippett's The Vision of St Augustine (recorded under the composer's baton in 1971). In 1977 Shirley-Quirk created the role of Lev in Tippett's The Ice Break at Covent Garden. He also distinguished himself as an intelligent and sympathetic interpreter of lieder, mélodies and English song.

Shirley-Quirk's vast discography includes many of Britten's works, Mahler's Eighth Symphony under Sir Georg Solti on Decca, and Vaughan Williams' vocal works under Sir David Willcocks and the Choir of King's College, Cambridge for EMI. He also sang in the premiere recording of Delius's Requiem in 1968, under Meredith Davies, shortly after a rare live performance (only the work's fifth performance in 62 years) at the Albert Hall with the same forces. Among his early recordings for Saga of British songs is the first complete version (including the Epilogue) of Vaughan Williams's Songs of Travel.

His vocal art was noted for its "authoritative yet richly communicative" quality, while the gift for musical and verbal detail of a natural Lieder singer and the "oiled-teak smoothness" of his voice took listeners "to profound interpretive depths".

Shirley-Quirk was appointed associate artistic director of the Aldeburgh Festival in 1982. From 1991 he was on the faculty of the Peabody Conservatory of Music in Baltimore, MD.

Personal life
In 1975, Shirley-Quirk was appointed a Commander of the Order of the British Empire (CBE).

Shirley-Quirk was married to Patricia ("Pat") Hastie, who died in 1981, then oboist Sara Watkins, who died in 1997. In 2009 he married cellist Teresa Perez. He died of cancer at the age of 82 in Bath on 7 April 2014.

title: John Shirley-Quirk


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Peter Cormack

Peter Barr Cormack (born 17 July 1946) is a Scottish former international football player and manager. His greatest success was with Liverpool in the early 1970s, for whom he played 178 times, winning two league championships, one FA Cup and two UEFA Cup medals.

Cormack also played for Hibernian, Toronto City, Nottingham Forest, Bristol City and Partick Thistle. He collected nine full caps for the Scotland national football team, and was a member of the Scotland squad at the 1974 FIFA World Cup that went undefeated but did not advance out of the group stage of the tournament.

Cormack managed Partick Thistle, Anorthosis FC, Botswana, Cowdenbeath and Greenock Morton. He held roles of assistant manager and interim manager at St Mirren and was assistant manager at Hibernian.

Style of play
Born in Edinburgh, Scotland, Cormack is described on his profile on the Liverpool F.C. website as "a skilful, player with an eye for goal" and "a classy player who loved to entertain".

The article as a Hibernian Hall of Fame inductee says of him:

"Once described as a skinny kid built like a greyhound, he was as hard as nails, his fiery fiercely competitive nature earning him several altercations with officialdom. According to a popular Hibs player of the time, Peter could do everything, pass, beat a man, tackle and head the ball. The versatile Cormack could also play anywhere, out wide, midfield, up front and even in goal as he once demonstrated when keeping a clean sheet for most of the match against St Mirren after goalkeeper Willie Wilson had gone off injured."

He offered a serious attacking threat from headers with an apparent natural ability to hang in the air. He had a prance like style of running by running on the balls of his feet. Cormack worked hard to improve as a footballer and did extra training sessions three times a week with Peter Marinello and John Murphy at Hibs. With a background in cross country running, he was very fit using his stamina to tire out opponents to allow space for himself.

Hibernian
A product of Tynecastle Boys Club the young Peter Cormack was signed by Heart of Midlothian directly from school. He was the first ground staff boy at Tynecastle Park since Hearts all-time great Tommy Walker in the 1930s. However Cormack left following an incident in which a grass cutting machine damaged a perimeter wall. Cormack was quickly signed by cross city rivals Hibernian who he joined in 1962. After impressing in the reserves he scored on his first team debut in November 1962 against Airdrieonians.

His best season at Hibs was 1964-65 during the 12 months they were managed by Jock Stein (Stein had a 62% win rate at Hibs). Hibs challenged for league and cup until Stein left before the end of the season to manage Celtic in March 1965. Cormack scored twice when Hibs won 4–2 against Rangers at Ibrox Park on 10 October 1964 in one of three victories against Rangers. The 4–2 win at Ibrox was three days after Cormack and Hibs had beaten Real Madrid 2–0 in a challenge match at Easter Road. Cormack scored the opener against Real volleying home a cross by Neil Martin. Stein was replaced by Bob Shankly with whom Hibs finished fourth in the league and lost in the Scottish Cup semi final to Dunfermline Athletic. Cormack played regularly with Hibs in Europe but was unable to progress past the quarter final stage. The most significant of Cormack's wins in Europe with Hibs was the November 1967 6-4 aggregate success against S.S.C. Napoli featuring Dino Zoff. Napoli won the first leg 4–1 in Italy. Cormack scored the third as Hibs won the second leg 5–0. Napoli were league leaders in Serie A at the time. Hibs had knocked out F.C. Porto in the previous round when Cormack scored a double in the 3–0 home leg win. They were eliminated 2–1 on aggregate in the quarter final by Don Revie's Leeds United.

Cormack scored 75 goals in 182 league games for Hibs in this spell. He was sold in 1970 when after a second sending off in a short period of time he was given a three-month suspension by the authorities in Scotland.

During the summer of 1967, the Hibs team played in the United Soccer Association, a North American competition, as "Toronto City".

Nottingham Forest
Aged 23, in March 1970 Cormack was signed by Matt Gillies at Nottingham Forest. Forest started the season well with Cormack being unbeaten and fourth in the league after six games. They were unable to retain this and slid down the table to finish in 16th. In his two seasons at the City Ground, he scored 15 times in 74 league games and 20 in 86 over all competitions. Ex Hibs teammate Neil Martin joined in 1971. However Forest were relegated from the top flight in 1972 from finishing second from bottom of the league.

Liverpool
Four days before his 26th birthday in July 1972, Cormack signed for Liverpool, managed by Bill Shankly. Shankly told Cormack he was 'the final piece in the jigsaw' of that Liverpool team and he became an integral part of the Liverpool midfield as the Anfield club won their first trophies of the 1970s with the League championship and the UEFA Cup.

Cormack made his Reds debut on 2 September 1972 in a league fixture at the Baseball Ground in a 2–1 defeat to Derby County. His first goal came the following week at Anfield in a 4–2 win against Wolverhampton Wanderers. In October he headed the only goal of the game with 13 minutes to go for a home win in the Merseyside derby against Everton. Two minutes into the second half of Liverpool's penultimate League match against Leeds United in April 1973, Cormack fired Liverpool's opener in a 2–0 win, a result that helped Liverpool to finish ahead of Leeds and Arsenal and win the title for the first time since 1966.

In the UEFA Cup, Cormack scored in the second round win against AEK Athens. Liverpool defeated four German teams en route to the trophy and beat Tottenham Hotspur in the semi-final. Cormack played both legs of the 3–2 aggregate win against Borussia Mönchengladbach in the final. His throw-in fed Chris Lawler to provide the high cross for the first goal. In total, Cormack played 52 games and scored 10 goals in his first season at Anfield.

Cormack won silverware in his second season, when Liverpool emphatically beat Newcastle United 3–0 at Wembley in the 1974 FA Cup Final. Cormack played in the final in central midfield with another Scottish-born player, Brian Hall. He played in all eight games in that FA Cup run and in all 42 league matches that season, two of those as a substitute, as Liverpool finished second to Leeds United in the league. Overall he played 57 games that season, scoring 11 times.

Cormack started his third season with the club by scoring a penalty in the penalty shoot-out win against Leeds in the 1974 FA Charity Shield. His next goal was in the 11–0 thumping of Norwegian minnows Strømsgodset in the European Cup Winners' Cup at Anfield, still a club record win. Liverpool again finished second in the league that season, this time to Dave Mackay's Derby County F.C. Cormack played 36 league games, scoring three goals.

In 1975–76, Cormack's fourth season at Anfield, Liverpool completed another League and the UEFA Cup double. Cormack played in both legs in the UEFA Cup first round 3–2 aggregate win against his former club, Hibernian. Cormack was a regular league starter until the end of October. In the next six leagues games he made the team sheet only once, as a substitute against Coventry City. He was then named as substitute against Burnley before a run of four games in the starting line-up, including a crucial 2–0 home win against Queens Park Rangers that put Liverpool in top spot ahead of the London club. The last of those four games was the 1–0 home league win against Manchester City on 27 December 1975. Cormack scored the only goal in what was to be a landmark game for him. A long-standing underlying problem with knee cartilage materialised into an injury after the game, when the cartilage cracked. He lost his place in the team and missed the rest of the season, which included the 4–3 aggregate win against Bruges in the UEFA Cup Final, and never played again in the Liverpool first team. He was an unused substitute in the 1976 FA Charity Shield win against Southampton at the start of the following season.

In his 125 Liverpool league games Cormack scored 21 times. He played 178 first team games in total, scoring 26 goals.

Bristol City
Aged 30, in November 1976 Cormack left Liverpool and joined Alan Dicks's Bristol City for £50,000. City were in their first season back in the top tier. City were in a three way dogfight to stay up. In City's penultimate game they played Liverpool, who already had the title wrapped up. Cormack was an unused substitute as his team won 2–1. Their final game opponents were Coventry City, who were also fighting to stay up. The kick-off had been delayed due to the large crowd, with some reports alleging it was intentionally delayed by Coventry's chairman, Jimmy Hill. Cormack joined the fray as a half-time substitute when his team were a goal down. Sunderland lost away to Everton, meaning a draw between to the two teams playing at Highfield Road would keep both those sides up and relegate Sunderland. News of Sunderland's defeat was displayed on the Highfield Road scoreboard. The score in the Coventry v Bristol City game was 2–2 at the time. Both teams then tamely played out a mutually beneficial draw.

Although not challenging for major honours, Cormack enjoyed yet another cup win this time in the Anglo-Scottish Cup in 1978. City played Alex Ferguson managed St Mirren in the two-legged final. The first leg was in Paisley with City beating their hosts 2–1 and Cormack scoring the winner. The 1–1 return leg draw gave City a 3–2 aggregate win.

He scored 15 goals in 67 league games in Bristol.

Hibernian (second spell)
Aged 33, in February 1980 Cormack returned to Hibernian where he lined up alongside George Best. However this was insufficient to prevent Hibs being relegated from Scotland's top flight at the end of that season. In total he played almost 300 games for Hibs over two spells. He scored once in 20 league games in this second Hibs spell. He stayed til December before moving into management elsewhere.

International
Whilst at Hibs, he won his first full cap for Scotland on 25 June 1966 in a prestigious friendly with Brazil at Hampden Park. Brazil were warming up in readiness to play in the 1966 World Cup which was to be held in England. On Cormack's debut the Scots held the reigning World Champions to a 1–1 draw. In total he collected nine full caps all when playing for Hibs and his next club, Nottingham Forest. When at Liverpool he was selected for Scotland's squad for the 1974 FIFA World Cup. Davie Hay was selected to play in preference to Cormack who didn't cross the touchline for any game time as the Scots returned home unbeaten after the group stage with a win and two draws. Cormack also represented the Scottish League XI six times.

Management and coaching
On 5 December 1980, he was appointed Partick Thistle manager, succeeding Bertie Auld who had gone in the opposite direction to manage Hibs. Thistle finished sixth in the top flight at the end of Cormack's first season there. However they were relegated the season after from finishing 9th of the 10 clubs in the division. They missed out on promotion the season after in finishing fourth. They reached the last eight that season of both cup competitions being eliminated by Celtic and Aberdeen. Thistle missed out on promotion again in the 1983/84 season after when they finished third. Cormack was there for three and a half years leaving at the end of the 1983–84 season. In the league he played for Thistle once in season 1983–84.

From 1984-86 he managed Anorthosis Famagusta in Cyprus. In 1986 he managed the Botswana national football team before he returned to Scotland as assistant manager to Alex Miller at St Mirren. However, on 15 November 1986 Miller was appointed manager of Hibs after which Cormack had two games in charge of Saints as interim manager. Cormack then followed Miller to Hibs as his assistant manager once again. The St Mirren team they left behind won that season's Scottish Cup.

In December 2000 he was appointed manager of Cowdenbeath in the Scottish fourth tier. Cowdenbeath were promoted at the end of the season. However Cormack was sacked after 10 days during which time his side never played a game.

In July 2001 he took over at Greenock Morton in Scotland's third tier. However he left the following March in a season in which Ton were relegated when they finished bottom of the division.

Away from football
Cormack went into the karaoke business. Cormack retired from professional football after he left Morton in 2002. Following a number of years on the after-dinner speaking circuit, Cormack now spends time playing in celebrity golf events, working in his garden and helping with his six grandchildren.

His son, also named Peter, played lower league football in Scotland for various clubs.

Honours
Liverpool
 * Football League First Division: 1972–73, 1975–76
 * FA Cup: 1973–74
 * FA Charity Shield: 1974, 1976
 * UEFA Cup: 1972–73

Bristol City
 * Anglo-Scottish Cup: 1977–78

title: Peter Cormack


text:
User talk:Garyhe

Welcome!

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome! --Flockmeal 20:51, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)
 * The five pillars of Wikipedia
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title: User talk:Garyhe


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Monton & Weaste Cricket Club

Monton & Weaste Cricket Club were a cricket club in the Central Lancashire League who played at Ellesmere Park in Eccles, Greater Manchester, England. They fielded a First and Second team after joining the league in 2005. They were originally recruited so that the league would return to sixteen member clubs, but Stand later announced their resignation for the 2005 season.

The club formed in 1998 when Monton merged with Weaste Cricket Club, following a decline in the latter’s playing resources over previous years. Both clubs were longstanding members of the Manchester and District Cricket Association. Monton had been a member of the Manchester Association since replacing Stockport in 1937. Stockport had left to join the CLL, but resigned in 1998. Monton & Weaste were chosen to replace them in 2004, ahead of five other applicants. In 2020 Monton, by then playing in the Greater Manchester Cricket League, reverted to their original name.

title: Monton & Weaste Cricket Club