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Talk:Slow loris

Featured topic
For the proposed good topic, we have two more things to do. One is getting Pygmy slow loris to GA, which we're now working on in Sasata's sandbox. The other is fulfilling criterion 1c, which (almost) mandates that the articles be placed together in a navigation template. I think we should either extend Template:Lorisidae nav to cover fossil species and Conservation of slow lorises or make a dedicated slow loris navbox.

Above is the featured topic box, which I fetched from the archive with the page names corrected. Currently, we're almost there for a good topic, but to make this into a featured topic, we'll need to get at least two more articles to FA. All the living species should be fairly close to FA standards, so we might want to pick two (or more) to get to FA. Ucucha 09:51, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll take pygmy through FAC when we're done working on it. As for the others, I agree they all look pretty good. Hopefully the shorter length of the species articles will make the FAC somewhat shorter than for the genus article :) How about Bengal for the other candidate (type species)? Sasata (talk) 15:11, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
 * All this sounds good. I was planning to run each of the species through FAC after my current nomination passes. Feel free to make tweaks to them in the meantime.  Personally, I've got a lot on my plate at the moment. –  VisionHolder  « talk » 19:24, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
 * By the way, how do the collaborators feel about the Javan slow loris article? I'm thinking about submitting that as my next FAC.  I'll double-check before I submit it, but I'm pretty sure I exhaustively covered my available sources when I worked on writing it. –  VisionHolder  « talk » 18:07, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Fine by me; I'll read through it again tonight and recheck the lit databases as well. Someone's probably gonna mention the small distribution section. Should we dump the cladogram per the Slow loris fac, or perhaps combine the coucang(s) + bengalensis branches? Sasata (talk) 20:22, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * As I've said before—dump it, and wait until we get a more definitive phylogeny.
 * In the Javan article, the claim that Lesson called that species "Bradylemur tardigradus" should probably go. He seems to be calling all slow lorises (and perhaps some slender lorises, since he said the species is on Ceylon) Bradylemur tardigradus, and the Javan form is included as one of four varieties (var. D). Ucucha 20:41, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe the explanation of the synonyms was added per a GAN request. If we remove the mention of Lesson, then I can see FAC reviewers asking why we only discuss 2 of the 3 synonyms.  Should we just explain it better (with an additional ref, I suppose), or delete all three? –  VisionHolder  « talk » 00:29, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Why is it in the synonym list in the first place? MSW 3 doesn't list tardigradus as a synonym of javanicus, and I don't see why it should be one. Ucucha 00:33, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Sasata, where is your sandbox for the article Pygmy slow loris? I lost the link. From what I remember seeing of it, the biggest issue was the references. Do you think we could clean those up and publish it, even if it still needs some work for GAN? Something is better than nothing for this poor species. –  VisionHolder « talk » 15:40, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Here, Conservation/Trade/captivity sections need lots of work (still too close to the source in some places), any help appreciated! Sasata (talk) 15:47, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Is there a way to know which parts are too similar to the sources? Otherwise, I'll start a talk page for the sandbox and ask my questions there.  –  VisionHolder  « talk » 16:14, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Venomous?
The article about venom links here and the article is in the venomous mammal category yet the article itself makes no mention of the slow loris being venomous or any detail related to that. Dr. Lobotomy (talk) 00:52, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The problem is that the literature doesn't explicitly say that they have venom... just a toxin that they keep in their mouth. Between following the sources and having a good definition of the word "venomous", it made it quite difficult to write.  I'm open to discussion of the topic, though. –  VisionHolder  « talk » 08:20, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Actually other places have said that this is not a venom at all but perhaps something akin to a scent based signaling mechanism. The references at the end of this post might be useful http://theprancingpapio.blogspot.com/2010/10/are-slow-lorises-really-venomous.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.115.134.207 (talk) 19:36, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The article already cites most of those sources, and the article phrases things in a way that fall in line with the views of leading loris researchers. More may be published about it soon.  There is a strong possibility that that toxin is only found in wild lorises, not captive ones, and it may be a result of their diet.  Without a diet of toxic insects, the secretion may be no more potent than cat dander.  But we can't say this until the research is published.  For now, the debate over whether the slow loris is venomous or not boils down to a debate over the precise meaning of the word "venomous".  At this point, I am inclined to favor the phrase "toxic bite". –  Maky  « talk » 22:21, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

"Two tongues" and more...
A note to my co-authors of this article, and anyone else wanting to comment:

In the Natural World series on the BBC, the slow loris was just featured in the U.K. with a special entitled "Jungle Gremlins of Java", which followed Dr. Nekaris around the Java as she studied slow loris distribution and the toxicity of their bite, while also addressing the illegal pet trade. (I should note that our research and discussion of the illegal trade, along with some perfect timing, helped to spark a protest on YouTube last year, which helped popularize this issue and get the BBC interested in Dr. Nekaris' work. Good job, team, for our small part!)  Anyway, the video stated some information that is not present in the article, and I wouldn't be surprised that as this video gets released in other countries, people will start trying to add it in. Three of these tidbits that I noted when watching it include:

 * 1) Slow lorises have "two tongues".
 * 2) There may be as many as 12 species.
 * 3) The toxic bite may be used to repel parasites or to injure/kill other lorises competing for territory.  (They even showed Dr. Nekaris testing this.)  The show also noted that lorises returned to the wild have a low survival rate, and this may be due to not getting the chemicals needed to produce their toxin in their captive diets.

These are all interesting points, but obviously we will need to watch for publications from Nekaris that discuss them. I know in Osman Hill's book, the "two tongues" are discussed for all strepsirrhines, so we can probably add that. It's called a "sublingua" and is thought to be used by strepsirrhines to clean their toothcomb, and possible help collect nectar in some lemur species. For some reason, the staff at the Duke Lemur Center insist quite strongly on the term frenulum (or lingual frenulum), but I know no other literature that uses that term to describe this organ. Anyway, I can try to add this later if everyone feels it would make a good addition. –  VisionHolder « talk » 22:57, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The sublingua has been mentioned in the article with appropriate citations. I used the same explanation on this article as I did on the Lemur article.  I will try to create an article on the sublingua, and if we are lucky, someone at the Duke Lemur Center may help by contributing a photo.  The rest of the information above will have to wait for future publications. –  VisionHolder  « talk » 07:36, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Term
What does crown strepsirrhines means? It appears in the section Anatomy and physiology, 4 paragraph. --Andresisrael (talk) 21:01, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for catching that. I have linked the word "crown" to the article Crown group.  In short, it means "living strepsirrhines" but simplifying it this way can lead to misinterpretations since it does not exclude recently extinct strepsirrhines.  Basically, the crown strepsirrhines exclude much older, extinct groups of strepsirrhines that are more distantly related (called stem groups).  I hope that explains it.  Unfortunately, any discussion of primates gets confusing because too few people understand their evolutionary history, and oversimplifying terms often leads to misunderstandings, even among experts.  –  Maky  « talk » 03:54, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Sagittal crest
Hi again, I think this could be a better and more recent source about the presence of a sagittal crest in Nycticebus. --Andresisrael (talk) 00:11, 21 August 2012 (UTC) (PD: I mean more recent than Elliot 1913, becouse both are pretty old)
 * Yes, both are old. What is the conclusion of this paper?  (All the article says is: "The skull has prominent crests.")  I don't have access to it, and the scanned first page is hard to read.  Is it simply suggesting differences in these crests between Nycticebus species?  If so, it might be worthwhile to wait for some upcoming literature by Anna Nekaris.  I believe she is working to revise slow loris taxonomy, and I'm pretty sure that will be addressed. –  Maky  « talk » 01:46, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * If Nekaris is working in an upcoming research or book, is better to wait. Actually I was quite sorprize that in Primate Anatomy didn't mention anything about it. --Andresisrael (talk) 05:02, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I just checked Osman Hill's detailed volume on strepsirrhine anatomy, and it didn't say anything about the crests. I guess it wasn't noteworthy? –  Maky  « talk » 05:44, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Comments
The slow loris article is one of the featured articles in the “primates” section. The article is very comprehensive in all areas. The article contains general information on the genus, with further information on specific species. The specific species pages are far less specific and edited in general. The behavior section, in my opinion, could be improved organizationally. It would benefit from having subtopics in addition to “diet.” Behaviors described include male/male interactions, communication, movement, breeding and rearing patterns, and diet. It does not include information on sibling interaction, kin selection, or offer very much information on parent/offspring relationships. The article states that behavior is not fully known. There is clarification and fact cross-checking in the talk section. It appears that the page is updated several times a month by multiple authors and was created in 2004. Katims90 (talk) 19:42, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

 * Thank you for your constructive feedback. First of all, I'm surprised that you say that the species articles are less specific and less edited—all are either good articles (GA) or featured articles (FA), except for Pygmy slow loris, which is not GA because we haven't had time to polish up the references.  If details are lacking in those articles, there may have been oversights, but it is most likely due to avoiding redundancy with the genus article.  All of these articles were re-written together as part of a fairly impressive collaboration project.  More specific examples of what could be improved would be appreciated.
 * I'm also a little confused... You say that the article could use a subsection on "diet", yet you list "diet" as one of the topic discussed in the Behavior section. I'm pretty sure we covered everything that was published on that topic.  Sadly, there aren't many people studying slow lorises, and I have regular email contact with the most noteworthy one—Dr. Anna Nekaris.  If you have a specific question about the diet that is not answered in the article, I can try asking her if anything is published on it.  I know that a lot of (illegal) pet owners want to know what to feed their pet, but Wiki is not a how-to manual for pet care.  Also, I don't think anything has been published about sibling interaction, kin selection, or parent/offspring relationships.  (Again, prosimian primates are not as well studied as simians.)  I wish I could offer more information on the article, but that requires further (published) research. –  Maky  « talk » 20:45, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Slow loris in Spanish
Hi, I just want to announce that I traduced this article to the Spanish version of Wikipedia, where I'm going to nominate it to AD (the spanish version of FA). BTW, incredible article Maky. If you have any suggestion (I don't know if you speak Spanish), please talk to me in my talk page. --Andresisrael (talk) 13:13, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Weight
In the seccion Anatomy and Physiology, 6th paragraph, it says that the pygmy slow loris can weight 265 g. In Nekaris et al 2010, it says that it weight from 360 g to 580 g. I think that in the article it should say Bornean slow loris. --Andresisrael (talk) 02:04, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Recent article suggests slow loris weep in response to pain
Researchers discover new species of slow loris with toxic bite

At the end of the article, it is stated that slow loris are tortured in order to induce them to cry. Then the tears are collected for use in traditional medicine. I find this claim highly dubious. I thought that humans were the only animal that produces tears in response to physical or emotional pain. Besides, it would be more efficient to introduce an irritant such as pepper.

If you are planning to include this torture claim, please find a more reliable source. Becalmed (talk) 23:28, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

 * I wasn't planning on it, and I would have reverted it if someone had. What I think it means is that they burn it alive, and as it shrieks in pain, its eyes melt and the juices pour out.  That is what they would collect.  In fact, this is already discussed in the article Conservation of slow lorises: "Slow lorises are also burned alive, causing their eyes to burst and release a liquid called minyak kukang (or loris oil)..." –  Maky  « talk » 00:25, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

 * Thanks for the info! I'm glad that you didn't need my heads up. Becalmed (talk) 02:50, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Number of species
The lede says that contrary to earlier claims, there are now eight known species; the body of the article ("Distribution and diversity") says that there are five. This should be reconciled. Joefromrandb (talk) 11:50, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Done... except I can't list the other species and their locations until I have a better source than an online news source. I am waiting for the formal publication be released, and that may be getting held up because of the news leak.  And FYI, it's a "lead" not a "lede".  There's a difference—see Manual of Style/Lead section. –  Maky  « talk » 23:45, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

I heard somewhere it was 12. Probably misremembering. WikipediaUserCalledChris (talk) 09:15, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

docile

 * "...and when threatened, they freeze and become docile."

Hard to believe "docile" would be the right word choice for what happens in the face of a predator. Also, 'freezing' and 'becoming docile' seem to be somewhat contradictory here - rigid vs. pliable. Perhaps "freeze and remain immobile" or simply "freeze"? Should there also be added something like "...biting only when directly threatened"? Heavenlyblue (talk) 16:38, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

 * Both "freeze" and "docile" is actually the words used in the source. However since the wording is too close to that of the source, I will reword to say "...and when threatened, they stop moving and remain immobile" as you suggest.  As for the suggestion about their biting, I'm not sure why this is needed.  The part of the article that first discusses their bite in detail starts with: "When threatened, slow lorises may also lick their brachial glands and bite their aggressors..."  This shows that they are not aggressive animals and bite only in self defense.  –  Maky  « talk » 17:46, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

 * I suggested the reference to biting as a more logical alternative to "and become docile". I must point out that "bite only in self defense" from the source is essentially identical to my suggestion of "biting only when directly threatened".  Either is fine.    Heavenlyblue (talk) 18:34, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

An important question remains unanswered throughout the article...
Why is the Slow Loris slow? Maybe it would be helpful to readers if this were explained. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.12.116.125 (talk • contribs)

 * The article already discusses this sufficiently. Search for: "Slow lorises are slow and deliberate climbers" and read that paragraph. –  Maky  « talk » 16:51, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm replying to an old comment here. I saw a BBC documentary "Jungle Gremlins of Gava" in it they are described as only slow when exposed to bright light, one of the reasons for the title, this does, however, boil down to how slow is slow. Throughout they did appear to move quite slowly. Perhaps simply not AS slow when not in bright light. WikipediaUserCalledChris (talk) 09:11, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Danger of a slow loris bite
I have just removed a statement that claimed the slow loris possesses a "potentially lethal bite". I feel that, even with the word "potentially", such a statement requires some evidence. I also removed the reference that was used to support that statement (Exploring cultural drivers for wildlife trade via an ethnoprimatological approach: a case study of slender and slow lorises (Loris and Nycticebus) in South and Southeast Asia). The article from the reference just says:

"Other features of lorises, however, including their strong odor and potentially lethal bite [Alterman, 1995]"

and I do not have access to the Alterman reference, which may be found at the following link:

http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-1-4757-2405-9_24

I think that someone with access to that book should decide if it constitutes sufficient evidence of a "potentially lethal bite". If so, restore the statement that I deleted, but cite Alterman, not the old reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cog77 (talk • contribs) 15:28, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The article was entirely rewritten a few years ago as a large collaborative effort, and this source was included in that research. The toxicity of the bite has been noted in research by Nekaris (a leading slow loris researcher) and even discussed on a popular documentary on the BBC.  The material also was vetted at FAC. –  Maky  « talk » 17:06, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

The cited Nekaris paper does not make sense as a source because it doesn't provide any evidence for the claim of a "potentially lethal bite". If there is evidence elsewhere, maybe in the Alterman book cited by Nekaris, or even the BBC documentary you mention, then that source should be the one cited here instead. Just to clarify - I am not disputing whether or not a bite is toxic, but whether or not it is *lethal* (or potentially so). Surely such a claim should be supported by more than a one-off sentence in a paper? Cog77 (talk) 19:33, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The "Behavior and ecology" section outlines in detail the dangers of the bite, including its toxicity and risk of anaphylactic shock. The "Conservation" section doesn't need to cite everything again. –  Maky  « talk » 20:18, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

So it does - I had missed that one sentence in the "Behavior and ecology" section that mentions a human fatality. Still, I think that the "Conservation" section sentence could be improved. Either it doesn't need to cite everything again, in which case the current reference can be removed, or if it does require a reference, it should be a relevant one. I would suggest one of the following references from the "Behavior and ecology" section:

"Venom" of the slow loris: sequence similarity of prosimian skin gland protein and Fel d 1 cat allergen"

or, perhaps better:

"Anaphylactic shock following bite by a 'slow loris', Nycticebus coucang"

Both seem particularly suitable, although I can only preview access the first page of the latter.Cog77 (talk) 21:03, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Actually, I now suspect that the reference I have been recommending for removal was supposed to cover the "bad smell" part of the sentence as well. I still think the addition of one of the references listed in my last post here would be useful - it initially appeared to me that the current reference would give details about "lethality", and it does not. I will leave the decision to others though.Cog77 (talk) 21:10, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

 * Done... though I don't really like it. It makes that new ref look like it supports the entire statement and not just the minor issue with a single word.  Again, I'm of the opinion that the potential lethality is fully supported elsewhere, so that one brief mention in the original source should be more than sufficient.  If other editors agree, they're welcome to remove the additional ref. –  Maky  « talk » 22:44, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I have to say that I'm not as certain as I originally was, but I do think the original reference was a bit odd for the lethality part. As before, I leave it to you and others to decide. If the original and new reference both remain in this sentence, perhaps it would be clearer if the original one was moved to the middle of the sentence?

"Furthermore, few know about their strong odor[o] or their potentially lethal bite.[n]" [o] = original, [n] = new.

Maybe that would fix it with regard to the second sentence in your last comment?Cog77 (talk) 09:51, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

 * I did something similar. It should be good now.  –  Maky  « talk » 18:33, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

I think that looks good also, thank you.Cog77 (talk) 20:51, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Venomous? (take 2)
If you ask Prof Bryan Fry, world leading expert on venom, the answer is YES. plain and simple. (here TIME = 11:35 and here and here ). מינוזיג (talk) 17:36, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * PS - and it is most definitely NOT a folklore as written in the artical מינוזיג (talk) 11:42, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The "folklore" part, if read in its entirety, does not say that the toxicity is folklore. It merely introduces the stories of its toxicity as originating in folklore.  I just tweaked the wording so that the paragraph doesn't give extra weight to the cat allergen hypothesis.  I think the way it's worded now makes is clear that there is potential toxicity associated with the bite of a wild slow loris. –  Maky  « talk » 21:19, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
 * hi Maky. from your answer i can understand that you are not 100% convinced of venom presence and you are very cautious about it. still, i think that the wording not reflecting precisely this issue. cat allergen is one component amongst others, the chemicals produced by slow lorises are more complex then that and has not yet been fully understood. toxin is found in wild lorises but presence in captive born ones. today theories about Slow loris suggest that venom appear when needed and like Platypus venom associate with Intraspecific competition. example: "'It is possible that venom is costly to produce and lorises may only activate it when they need it. In one of two recorded cases of a human entering anaphylactic shock after a loris bite [9], the loris delivering the bite had previously nipped his owner several times. It was only when the loris had been introduced to a conspecific with which it fought, and the owner separated the two, that a potentially deadly bite was delivered, causing the owner to go into anaphylaxis.'"
 * we understand now that venom have wide purposes and structures in many animals. this is my opinion and for you to decide.מינוזיג (talk) 08:20, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the link to the article. I'll try to take a look soon.  When the article was written, the "venom" view was new and not supported well with the literature.  I'll try to take a look and see if another re-write is needed.  As it stands, I think the article does a good job explaining the history of our understanding and leans strongly towards the "venom" view.  –  Maky  « talk » 01:48, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

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bla bla bla b;ah — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.27.197.112 (talk) 01:52, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

New genus for the pygmaeus species
This species has been moved to new genus Xanthonycticebus, so we will have some work to do here to clean up from that move. - UtherSRG (talk) 11:17, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Image request
Would be useful to have a public domain image in the article with the animal's teeth visible or bared. The existing images have the mouth closed or teeth clipped Erik Humphrey (talk) 16:50, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Slow loris


text:
Talk:Mary Slessor

More cleanup
I did some cleanup today, but don't have the time to check the bio--and page cites really are needed, IMHO.Jweaver28 (talk) 20:07, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Another reference/book which may help or may cause confusion
I was recently given a copy of a book "The White Queen of Okoyong (Mary Slessor)" by WP Livingstone, published by Hodder and Stoughton in 1917. On the title page it says WP Livingstone is "Author of 'Mary Slessor of Calabar'" (almost certainly the book referred to in the references). It seems that WP Livingstone wrote two biographies of Slessor and both were published about the same time! I haven't read both in their entirety but it looks like "Mary Slessor..." was intended for an adult reader and "The White Queen..." was written for children.

The pdf of "Mary Slessor..." referenced in the article is of a "popular edition" (29th Edition(!) published in 1927). I think at some stage it has been edited, because it has no table-of-contents and starts, on page 1 with "Second Phase 1876-1888 Age 28-40". The printed book I have contains a chapter on Slessor's childhood, before she sets off for Africa. I don't think that it adds a great deal of substance to the article, but it may be of interest to someone. It is written is a simple, uncritical manner and contains a lot of anecdotes. OldBoar (talk) 08:36, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

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History
Mary slessor 41.190.31.23 (talk) 19:14, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: Talk:Mary Slessor


text:
Autran Dourado

Waldomiro Freitas Autran Dourado (1926 – September 30, 2012) was a Brazilian novelist.

Dourado was born in Patos de Minas, state of Minas Gerais. Going against current trends in Brazilian literature, Dourado's works display much concern with literary form, with many obscure words and expressions. Minas Gerais is the setting for most of Dourado's books, resembling the early to mid-20th century regionalist trend in Brazilian literature. Most literary critics consider Dourado's work to have similarities to Baroque literature.

In 1982, Dourado won the Jabuti Prize.

In 2000, Dourado won the Camões Prize, the most important literary prize in the Portuguese language.

In 2001, Brazilian filmmaker Suzana Amaral released the film Uma Vida em Segredo. It was based on the novel of same title by Autran Dourado.

Dourado died of stomach bleeding on September 30, 2012, in Rio de Janeiro. He was 86 years old.

Selected novels

 * Uma Vida em Segredo 1964 - translated as A Hidden Life
 * Ópera dos Mortos 1967 - translated as Voices of the Dead
 * O Risco do Bordado 1970 - translated as Pattern for a Tapestry
 * Os Sinos da Agonia 1974 - translated as Bells of Agony
 * Ópera dos Fantoches 1995
 * As Imaginações Pecaminosas (Jabuti Prize 1982)
 * A Serviço Del-Rei 1984
 * Confissões de Narciso 1997

Novels with English translations are posted above with their American titles.

Reviews

 * McCabe, Brian (1981), review of The Voices of the Dead, in Cencrastus No. 6, Autumn 1981, p. 42

title: Autran Dourado


text:
Talk:Alexander Mackenzie (explorer)

Hello, friends
I am rather new to this (Wikipedia and History!), but I thought I should mention the fact that the "Later Life and Family" section is lacking a citation for the second paragraph. I am just wondering where this information regarding Alexanders marriage, post-marriage moves and death came from? Have a wonderful day everyone :) BiancaTrentU (talk) 17:17, 17 January 2018 (UTC. Hi this is so im yrestin)

Capitalization of K in MacKenzie
The "K" in MacKenzie ought to be capitalised.
 * Why? Adam Bishop 05:50, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Look at the way it's written on the stone. 145.64.134.241 06:22, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, people during that era were not always consistent about how the name was rendered. The DoCB article prefers the "Mackenzie" spelling, I think we should stick with that. Fawcett5 12:46, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Because Mac means "Son of" + the name, in this case a bastardisation of "Coinneach", meaning Kenneth. No one writes "kenneth", unless they are e. e. cummings --MacRusgail 18:26, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * A name like that in lower case is common even today, and was certainly common then, e.g. James Macpherson. Mackenzie himself is known universally in reputable texts with his name in that form, and it's the form used in his book, Voyages from Montreal.  (Look it up on Worldcat).  Whoever changed the title on this did it without warrant.  As Fawcett5 pointed out, a screen shot of a stone carving is not an acceptable basis when discussing a person who lived when spellings were not so rigid as now and for whom a mountain of citations and practice exists for the other way. 69.227.127.194 23:00, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not. The title page uses an all-caps ALEXANDER MACKENZIE and a cursory google of antique booksellers suggests that he spelt it MacKenzie in the first versions, with later editors emending it. Regardless, you're right that today his name seems to be generally (but not universally) spelled along English lines with a miniscule k; the lede should simply include a also or or MacKenzie to acknowledge the situation and tamp down similar well-intentioned edits. -LlywelynII (talk) 14:39, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * While correct that MacKenzie was a spelling of his, you should have looked at more than just the title page. There's a portrait on the frontispiece labeled with Mackenzie's name, and though also in capital letters the "M" is in larger script than the rest.  He also mentions himself or his cousin Roderic Mackenzie several times in the text, in each case spelled "Mackenzie".  One of the instances, in fact, is a formalized transcript of the "MacKenzie" rock carving.  This is all from the first edition in London, 1801, and I am not aware of any copy printed "MacKenzie" and very much doubt one exists.  The booksellers are probably just glancing at the title page and guessing.  Derek Hayes, on pg. 7 of First Crossing: Alexander Mackenzie, his Expedition across North America writes that: "I have spelled Mackenzie's name as he spelled it in his book, but in fact Mackenzie himself used 'McKenzie' [sic] much of the time.  Some letters are signed one way, some the other."  (I'm guessing McKenzie is a typo, though maybe not.)  Evidently like many men of his time he wasn't too particular about how his name was spelled. Cynwulf (talk) 19:57, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I've removed "(unfortunately including an erroneous capital K in his last name)" because it implies the later inscribers were the ones that introduced the capital K, not Mackenzie himself. The sources I've seen do not say who spelled it with a capital K. -kotra (talk) 21:46, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Is there any objection to correcting the misspelling of this fellow's name in the article title? I see that in most places in the article it is correctly spelled with a lower case "k" as it is in the Canadian Biography online. I suspect it has been left partly because there is another Alexander Mackenzie and because the surveyors who carved the message in the rock got it wrong. I have corresponded with the folks at BCGNIS and they agree that Sir Alexander Mackenzie Provincial Park is properly spelled with a lower case k. Morton (see footnote 2) also spells it with a lower case k.  -- KenWalker | Talk 20:13, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * IIRC I remember somewhere on a talkpage that the capital-K was used here to distinguish him from "the other guy"; it was an arbitrary Wiki-style choice, not done on the basis of documentation.....Skookum1 (talk) 21:47, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

 * Done. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:20, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

 * It isn't a misspelling (see above), but it is better to leave it here regardless of the utility of the disambig, since this is the more common format now. -LlywelynII (talk) 16:53, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Date of Birth earlier? 1822
I was reading Lewis by Donald Macdonald and it says Alexander Mackenzie crossed in 1774 aged 12 giving a date of birth of 1761/2, googling for Alexander Mackenzie a few pages record his DOB as 1762?
 * Yeah, i read a book about Alexander Mackenzie (lululemon) and it said he crossed to North America in 1776???

i am trying to find the explorer, NOT the prime minsiter. or are they both?
 * This is he. The other one is at the disambig. -LlywelynII (talk) 16:53, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Which Bentinck Arm?
In Alexander Mackenzie it says the end of his westward journey was at South Bentinck Arm for which there is no article. Dean Channel and North Bentinck Arm say it was at North Bentinck Arm. Is there a source that resolves this? -- KenWalker | Talk 11:10, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

"Discovered"?nothing
It is an insult to aboriginal/First Nations people of the world when it is stated that explorers "discovered" such-and-such a place. There are very few places that white Europeans actually discovered. What they did is simply stumble upon already-inhabited areas. I'd like to see the reference to "discovered" changed in this and other exploration articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.202.119.246 (talk) 18:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe if You were a little more polite about it. Remember, to the Europeans it WAS a discovery, and usually, these articles are written from the Eurocentric viewpoint.

 * Hey 209.202. How dare you seek recognition for First Nations people. Just because their ancestors were here 10,000+ years before any European, how would they know how to get around the country. They'd have to know the trails through forests, over hills and mountains, and the location of various lakes, streams, rivers, and good hunting grounds. Mr. Eurocentric wants you to learn some manners. Probably from other Europeans, since they're the world's experts. At least that's what THEY say. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.46.18.125 (talk) 13:31, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, the First Nation inhabitants didn't make maps so their knowledge wasn't of much use to anyone else. And they didn't seem to go in for exploration as-such, so we in Britain never had ships crewed by First Nation peoples arriving at Liverpool or Southampton, bringing with them their home country's goods to trade. There was nothing stopping these peoples learning how to build large, seagoing ships, and how to sail and navigate them across three thousand miles of the Atlantic. But they didn't. Perhaps it was a lack of the technology needed to build these ships, or a lack of interest in exploring the world, or both. The Chinese were able to build large sea going junks, but we never had these arriving in Britain either. I'm interested to see Mackenzie's nationality listed as 'Scottish Canadian'. While he may have been both, he was actually a British subject, and his nationality was therefore British.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.40.252.132 (talk) 19:22, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, there were many things stopping them from learning how to build large, seagoing ships (at least earlier than Eurasian civilizations), but the general point stands that 74... should WP:assume good faith and not be so snarky. It's pretty obvious that the Indians were here before anyone else, but while it's likely that at least some of them were able to range as far as Mackenzie did, their exploits have been lost in the collapse of their oral societies and for the society that replaced them MacKenzie & co. were explorers and discoverers. But surely this argument is already going on at some other page (Columbus? Age of Exploration?) and should be linked and dealt with there. -LlywelynII (talk) 16:45, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

 * And yes, the Scotch-Canadian thing is an inappropriate anachronism. -LlywelynII (talk) 16:45, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I do not understands 😕 2001:56A:F9B2:2300:C09A:CC73:F086:ACC7 (talk) 02:44, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Cabeza de Vaca
I've edited out "by a European" in the "first person to cross" sentence, because no proof was presented that a non-European had previously crossed the continent north of Mexico. Also I edited Cabeza de Vaca out of that sentence because his crossing did conclude in Mexico.

As a note to future editors, I would hope Cabeza de Vaca's name will remain in this article as his story is truly amazing & people should be able to link to it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.71.155.123 (talk) 17:55, 4 April 2009 (UTC) 76.102.218.69 (talk) 22:19, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * These are fine by me. The book cited simply said that MacKenzie made "the first transcontinental crossing north of Mexico since Cabeza de Vaca." The new wording and extra details are not in the book, so I took the reference out.
 * They aren't fine. Cabeza de Vaca didn't make a transcontinental crossing. He simply walked from ~Galveston, Texas, to Mexico City. There were conquistadors who did cross Mexico to (eg) Baja California, but he wasn't one of them. Should remain removed, although editors are welcome to find the actual crossers. -LlywelynII (talk) 16:45, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Then the main article for Cabeza de Baca should be edited, as it currently shows him reaching the Pacific coast. If the Cabeza de Baca article is accurate, it would be appropriate that he again be mentioned in the Mackenzie one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.55.15.207 (talk) 04:13, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Inscription on Rock
The article says that the message left on the rock at Dean's Channel read ""Alexander Mackenzie from Canada, by land, the twenty-second of July, one thousand seven hundred and ninety-three!" yet the picture reads as "Alexander Mackenzie from Canada, by land, 22d July, 1793". The article mentions that later surveyors permanantly engraved this message on the rock; did they change the date format when they did the engraving or is this an error in the article?Wkharrisjr (talk) 20:40, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It is more likely, given the fact that they surveryors got his name wrong, that they got the rest of the inscription wrong or edited it to fit. As I understand it the surveyors did the engraving many years after Mackenzie's visit. The source given for the wording of the inscription is quite reliable I think. -- KenWalker | Talk 02:15, 23 July 2009 (UTC)hes dad is kenneth
 * Except they didn't get his name 'wrong.' See above. As for the actual inscription (made deeper and more permanent over the original) being less reliable than an online gov't encyclopedia entry, I would have to contest that, especially given the unlikelihood of bothering to carve a spelled-out date into a rock. -LlywelynII (talk) 16:53, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The article is based on the Canadian biography article, which simply transcribed it incorrectly. The exclamation point was just OR. Fix'd. -LlywelynII (talk) 16:53, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

First Expedition
Apart from the fact that it is rather unclear how he got to the Mackenzie river in the first place (since he was at Lake Athabasca, but the river starts at the Great Slave Lake instead), the dates for this trip are suspect: according to the article he got in his canoe on July 10, presumably near the source of the river, and arrived at the river's mouth 4 days later. That is not possible: the Mackenzie river is 1000 miles long, and very slow flowing. No clear reference for this amazing feat is given. (Compare: http://www.canoenorth.ca/content/self-guided-trips-mackenzie-river-deh-cho quotes 4-7 weeks for this trip with modern equipment.) 2602:306:CEAE:E60:EC00:E4E2:4D3E:7E11 (talk) 08:40, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

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why did someone revert my fixing of a grammatical error
why

 * I've addressed this in an edit summary, while reverting the same "grammar fix". Haploidavey (talk) 22:40, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

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US vs UK spelling
I see this article has both spelling tags. The use UK English is dated 2014. The use US one is dated 2019. Looking back through the history, UK English was used first. Besides that, there's no reason this bio should use US English. I will clean up MOS:VAR. Masterhatch (talk) 19:08, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

First European to cross the continent
To clarify what has become an edit battle without actually resorting to Venn diagrams: we don't know whether anyone, such as an indigenous person, crossed the entire continent before Alexander Mackenzie did so. It would be incorrect to state that he was the first ever to have done so. Thus it is reasonable to state that he was the first European to do so. (This presumes that if any European had done so before, then the fact would have been recorded and would be known today, but that seems unlikely enough to ignore.) Sminthopsis84 (talk) 01:53, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:Alexander Mackenzie (explorer)


text: User talk:69.30.192.31

title: User talk:69.30.192.31


text:
Meeussen's rule

Meeussen's rule is a special case of tone reduction. It was first described in Bantu languages, but occurs in analyses of other languages as well, such as Papuan languages. The tonal alternation it describes is the lowering, in some contexts, of the last tone of a pattern of two adjacent High tones (HH), resulting in the pattern HL. The phenomenon is named after its first observer, the Belgian Bantu specialist A. E. Meeussen (1912–1978). In phonological terms, the phenomenon can be seen as a special case of the Obligatory Contour Principle.

The term "Meeussen's Rule" (the spelling with a capital R is more common) first appeared in a paper by John Goldsmith in 1981. It is based on an observation made by Meeussen in his 1963 article on the Tonga verb stating that "in a sequence of determinants, only the first is treated as a determinant". It was John Goldsmith who reformulated this as the rule HH > HL (or, as he expressed it, H → L / H  ) which later became well known as Meeussen's Rule.

Meeussen's rule is one of a number of processes in Bantu languages by which a series of consecutive high tones is avoided. These processes result in a less tonal, more accentual character in Bantu tone systems, ending finally in a situation in which there tends to be only one tone per word or morpheme.

Examples
Here are some illustrations of the phenomenon in Kirundi (examples adapted from Philippson 1998).

In verb forms
In the first sentence, both the tense marker rá and the verb form báriira (to sew) carry a high tone, signified by the acute accent. They are separated by the pronominal marker zi. In the second sentence, the pronominal marker zi is left out, resulting in two adjacent High tones. Due to the phenomenon described by Meeussen's rule, the second High tone changes into a Low tone.
 * na-rá-zi-báriira  (I- PAST -them. CL 10-to sew)   'I was sewing them' (them refers to a class 10 plural)
 * na-rá-bariira  (I- PAST -to sew)   'I was sewing'

In noun forms
These examples show a way of deriving from place names nouns with the meaning 'a person originating from'. In the first example, the place name bukéeye has a High tone on the second syllable. The junction with umuɲá ('person from') has no influence on this tone. In the second example, a place name with a High tone on the first syllable is used. Like above, the second High tone of the resulting pattern of two adjacent High tones is changed into a Low tone due to the phenomenon described by Meeussen's rule.
 * bukéeye > umuɲábukéeye
 * mwáaro > umuɲámwaaro

HHH > HLL
Just as HH (High tone + High tone) can become HL (High tone + Low tone) by Meeussen's rule, so also HHH will often become HLL, and HHHH will become HLLL. Thus in the Luganda language of Uganda, the word *bá-lí-lába 'they will see', which theoretically has three High tones, is actually pronounced bálilabá with only one. (The tone on the last syllable is an automatically generated phrasal tone; see Luganda tones.)

This process does not operate in the same way in every language, however. For example, in Shona, a Bantu language of Zimbabwe, the similar verb *á-chá-téngá 'he will buy' transforms to á-cha-téngá, where only one syllable is lowered by Meeussen's rule.

Exceptions to Meeussen's rule
Spreading of a tone across two or more syllables is quite common in Bantu languages. Tones which derive from spreading (or from plateauing, which is the spreading of high pitch from one high tone to another) are not affected by Meeussen's rule. Thus in the Chewa language of Malawi, for example, when the word kuphíka 'to cook' is followed by a direct object such as nyama 'meat', the tone on the penultimate syllable will spread: kuphíká nyama 'to cook meat'.

There are many other exceptions to Meeussen's rule. For example, in verbs in Shona, in certain circumstances two high tones may occur in adjacent syllables. In the subjunctive  tí-té ngésé 'we should sell', both tí and té- have underlying high tones (the high tones of -ngésé arise from tone spreading), yet the tone of té- is not deleted. Likewise in the Chewa verb a- ná-ká -fótokoza 'he went and explained', the tone of ká 'go and' does not get lowered, despite following the high-toned tense-marker ná.

title: Meeussen's rule


text:
Order of Suvorov

The Order of Suvorov (орден Суворова) is a military decoration of the Russian Federation named in honor of Russian Generalissimo Prince Alexander Suvorov (1729–1800).

History
The Order of Suvorov was originally a Soviet award established on July 29, 1942 (during World War II) by decision of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR. It was created to reward senior army personnel for exceptional leadership in combat operations. The Order of Suvorov was divided into three classes: 1st class, 2nd class, and 3rd class. Georgi Zhukov became the first recipient of the Order of Suvorov 1st class on January 28, 1943.

The Order 1st class was awarded to army commanders for exceptional leadership of combat operations. The Order 2nd class was awarded to corps, division, and brigade commanders for a decisive victory over a numerically superior enemy. The Order 3rd class was awarded to regimental commanders, their chiefs of staff, and battalion and company commanders for outstanding leadership leading to a combat victory. Despite its official award criteria, both the first and second classes of the Order were sometimes awarded to defense industry executives, as well as to designers of various weapons and military equipment. Only a dozen non-Russians have received the Order 1st class, including World War II military leaders United States Army Generals George C. Marshall and Dwight D. Eisenhower, British Army Field Marshal Alan Brooke, 1st Viscount Alanbrooke and Royal Navy Admiral Sir Robert Burnett.

Following the 1991 dissolution of the USSR, the Order of Suvorov was retained unchanged by Decision of the Supreme Soviet of the Russian Federation 2557-I of March 20, 1992 but it was not awarded in this form. The all encompassing Presidential Decree 1099 of September 7, 2010 that modernised and reorganised the entire Russian awards system away from its Soviet past changed the statute of the Order to a single-class medal.

In November 2015 all recipient formations in the Armed Forces of Ukraine were stripped of their Order of Suvorov honors as part of the removal of Soviet-era awards under decommunization.

Award statute
The Order of Suvorov is awarded in a single class to formation commanders, their deputies, heads of operational management, of operational departments, chiefs of the army and of special forces of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation: for skilful organization of the operations and management of groups of troops (forces), formations and military units, who managed, despite the stubborn resistance of the enemy, its numerical superiority, better technical equipment and a more favourable location in the theatre of operations to achieve the goals of the operation to keep key areas of its territory (or territory of allied countries), to create conditions for seizing the initiative and conduct further operations with offensive purposes; for skilful organization and management of units of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation during events of strategic deterrence, to ensure that no escalation, aggression (conflict) against the Russian Federation and (or) its allies occurs.

May also be awarded for conducting operations on land or in the air, during which, despite the numerical superiority of the enemy, the objectives of the operations were carried out while retaining the full operational capability of military units. May be awarded to foreign citizens – soldiers of allied forces from among the senior officers involved alongside the soldiers of the Russian Federation for organizing and conducting a successful combined operation of allied troops (forces). The Order may be awarded posthumously.

Award description
The Order of Suvorov is a 40 mm gold-plated cross pattée with silver rays protruding from the center outwards between the arms of the cross to form a square. The distance from the tip of the silver rays to the tip of the opposite rays is 35 mm. The obverse center has a circular convex medallion bearing the gilded bust of Alexander Suvorov, in profile, facing left. Just below the bust of Suvorov, on the medallion lower edge, crossed branches of oak and laurel. At the upper part of the medallion, following its circumference, the inscription in red-enamelled embossed letters "ALEXANDER SUVOROV" (in Russian: АЛЕКСАНДР СУВОРОВ). The reverse is bare except for the award serial number.

The Order is suspended by a ring through the award's suspension loop to a standard Russian pentagonal mount covered by a 24 mm green silk moiré ribbon with a 5 mm orange central stripe.

The Russian Federation order of precedence dictates that the Order of Suvorov is to be worn on the left side of the chest, and in the presence of other orders of the Russian Federation, is to be located immediately after the Order of Alexander Nevsky.

title: Order of Suvorov


text:
1932 in rail transport

January events

 * January 1
 * William Stanier succeeds Ernest Lemon as Chief Mechanical Engineer of the London, Midland and Scottish Railway.
 * Ralph Budd leaves the Great Northern Railway and becomes president of the Chicago, Burlington and Quincy Railroad.

March events

 * March 15 - The last passenger service run of the Pontchartrain Rail-Road, in operation for over a century.
 * March 24 - The first radio broadcast from a moving train occurs when New York City station WABC broadcasts from a Baltimore and Ohio Railroad train operating in Maryland.
 * March 31 – Tokyo Yokohama Electric Railway Line, from Shibuya Station in Tokyo via Musashi-Kosugi Station in Kawasaki, Kanagawa to Sakuragichō Station in Yokohama, is officially completed in Japan (as the predecessor of Tokyu Toyoko Line).

April events

 * April 20 - The first completely air-conditioned sleeping car trains begin operating on the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad.
 * April - The Atlantic City Railroad (predecessor to the Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines) purchases the Stone Harbor Railroad.

May events

 * May 24 - Nigerian Government Railways complete the 787 m (861 yd) road–rail Benue Bridge at Makurdi on its Eastern Line, replacing a train ferry.

June events

 * June 6 - The Great Western Railway's Cheltenham Spa Express passenger train (popularly known as the Cheltenham Flyer) sets a new speed record as 4-6-0 locomotive Tregenna Castle hauls it from Swindon to London Paddington, 77+1/4 mi, at an average speed of 81.7 mph.

August events

 * August 20 - The Unanderra – Moss Vale railway line of the New South Wales Government Railways in Australia is opened.
 * August 31 – Pacific Electric Arrowhead Line service is discontinued.

September events

 * September - The Great Western Railway accelerates its Cheltenham Spa Express between Swindon and London Paddington to a scheduled 65 minutes, giving an average speed of 71.3 mph over the whole trip, the world’s first train to be scheduled at over 70 mph.
 * September 10 - The IND Eighth Avenue Line, at this time the world's longest subway line (31 mi), begins operation in Manhattan.
 * September 11 - Canadian operations end on the International Railway (New York – Ontario).

December events

 * December 6 – Nippo Line, Kokura of Kitakyushu via Oita to Kagoshima route officially completed in Kyushu Island, Japan.
 * December 29 - “Twentieth Century” a play by Hecht and MacArthur about the New York Central Railroad's 20th Century Limited opens on Broadway.
 * December 31 - The last steam-powered Southern Belle passenger train operates on the Southern Railway; the train's equipment will be replaced with electric multiple unit cars the next day.

Unknown date events

 * The Southern Pacific Railroad gains 87% control of the Cotton Belt Railroad (St. Louis Southwestern Railway).
 * Angus Daniel McDonald succeeds Paul Shoup as president of the Southern Pacific Company, parent company of the Southern Pacific Railroad.
 * Hale Holden steps down as Chairman of the Executive Committee for the Southern Pacific Company. With Holden's departure, this position is eliminated. Holden then assumes the position of Chairman of the Board of Directors for the company.
 * The Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railway reduces train frequencies on its subsidiary Grand Canyon Railway from twice daily to once daily.
 * The Lake Shore Electric Railway in Ohio declares bankruptcy.
 * New Zealand Railways introduces K class 4-8-4 steam locomotives built in its Hutt Workshops.
 * First Franco-Crosti boilered locomotive built, Belgian State Railways No 2096, an 0-6-2+2-4-2-4-2+2-6-0 articulated.
 * An electric Children's railway operates in Gorky Park (Moscow), Soviet Union.

March deaths

 * March 7 - William N. Page, American civil engineer who built the Chesapeake and Ohio Railway and the Virginian Railway (born 1854).

title: 1932 in rail transport


text:
Elva (album)

Elva is the fourth studio album by the San Diego-based punk rock band Unwritten Law, released in 2002 by Interscope Records. With it the band moved away from their previously established skate punk style, and towards a more accessible alternative rock sound. The band found success with the song "Seein' Red", which reached #1 on the US Modern Rock Tracks charts. This is the band's last studio album to feature founding drummer Wade Youman until their 2022 album, The Hum.

Production
After touring in support of their Self-Titled Album, the band took time off the road and began working on new material. In an interview with MTV, Ex-Guitarist, Rob Brewer had stated:"'It's definitely a little different, I can't really explain how; it's just more of a rock record and there's more material. The album will have more complex instrumentation and a more mature vibe than the group's past work, We're stoked on it, we didn't go into the recording studio thinking we need to write another 'Cailin', we believe we have songs that are radio-friendly — we just play what we like and hope everyone else likes it, too'."

The band began recording the new album in the summer of 2000 with producer John Shanks, Brewer further explained:"'We talked with a bunch of other guys who had done much bigger albums,' 'but they didn't really take the time to listen to the demos and had no solid input on what they liked or didn't like. John was totally different; he really listened to the songs and had some solid ideas."

The band wrote about 30 songs with only 14 making the cut, two songs that didn’t make the album, "Dark Side" and "Baby, Come On" would end up as b-sides on the "Up All Night" single.

The album was finished, but upon listening to what they had, the band decided to scrap the recordings, go back into the studio, and redo the album with new producers Josh Abraham and Michael Happoldt.

In a 2014 interview, Happoldt recalled the sessions:"'Now that was a hybrid because they were on Interscope and there was a lot of pressure and they were used to doing certain things a certain way. So some lines were drawn a little bit there [haha]. But still, I got a lot of soul out of those boys for the condition it was recorded in. You know, huge studios, a lot of pressure from Interscope, but we had a number 1 hit out of that with 'Seeing Red'."

Elva features guest appearances by Tony Kanal of No Doubt, Josh Freese of The Vandals, and Neville Staple of The Specials. The two "Raleigh Soliloquy" tracks are recordings of the rants of Raleigh Theodore Sakers. Previous recordings of his rants numbered soliloquies I-III had appeared on the Sublime album Robbin' the Hood. After the closing track "Evolution" there is a phone message to singer Scott Russo from Blink-182 singer/guitarist Tom DeLonge, a close friend of the band who had grown up with them in their home town of Poway.

Personnel
Unwritten Law
 * Scott Russo – lead vocals
 * Steve Morris – lead guitar, backing vocals
 * Rob Brewer – rhythm guitar, backing vocals
 * Pat "PK" Kim – bass guitar
 * Wade Youman – drums

Additional musicians
 * Nicholas Wright – guitar on "Elva"
 * Josh Freese – drums on "Up All Night"
 * John Shanks – additional guitar on "Sound Siren," slide guitar on "Actress, Model..."
 * Miguel – upbeat guitar on "How You Feel," lead guitar on "Seein' Red"
 * Marshall Goodman – percussion on "Up All Night" and "Hellborn"
 * Michael Fisher – Indian percussion on "Babalon"
 * The Allday Singers – group vocals on "Babalon"
 * Tony Kanal – bass guitar on "Rest of My Life"
 * Neville Staples – DJ vocal on "Evolution"
 * Raleigh Theodore Sakers – spoken vocals on tracks 12 & 14

Artwork
 * Steven R. Gilmore – sleeve design, layout, art direction, line drawings (based on original drawings by Wade Youman)
 * Wade Youman and Marc B. – art direction
 * Mark Baldswin – cover paintings
 * Dean Karr – photography

Production
 * John Shanks and Miguel – Producers
 * Josh Abraham – producer and mixing of "Rest of My Life"
 * Mark DeSisto and Tobias Miller – engineers
 * Dan Chase, Tal Herzberg, and Baraka – Pro Tools
 * Eddie Ashworth – additional engineering
 * Mike McMullen and Jerry Moss – assistant engineers
 * David J. Holman – mixing
 * Mixed at Cactus Studio Hollywood
 * Brian Gardner – mastering

Charts
Album

Singles

title: Elva (album)


text: Talk:Elva (album)

title: Talk:Elva (album)


text:
User talk:Deathphoenix/Archive1

 ''This is an archive of previous discussions. If you wish to leave me a message, you can do so on my main talk page.''

Welcome to the Wikipedia
Welcome, newcomer!

Here are some useful tips to ease you into the Wikipedia experience:

 * First, take a look at the Wikipedia Tutorial, and perhaps dabble a bit in the test area.
 * When you have some free time, take a look at the Manual of Style and Policies and Guidelines. They can come in very handy!
 * Remember to use a neutral point of view!
 * If you need any help, feel free to post a question at the Help Desk
 * Explore, be bold in editing pages, and, most importantly, have fun!

Also, here are some odds and ends that I find useful from time to time:

 * Policy Library
 * Utilities
 * Cite your sources
 * Verifiability
 * Wikiquette
 * Civility
 * Conflict resolution
 * Brilliant prose
 * Pages needing attention
 * Peer review
 * Bad jokes and other deleted nonsense
 * Village pump
 * Boilerplate text

Feel free to ask me anything the links and talk pages don't answer. You can most easily reach me by posting on my talk page.

You can sign your name on any page by typing 4 tildes, likes this: ~~~~.

Best of luck, and have fun!

ClockworkSoul 23:22, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

David Eddings' Malloreon
Please see here for a discussion as to the correct name for The Malloreon. Now someone will have to change all those references back—maybe you? (Sorry to sound testy, but we've thrashed this issue out, and it's really annoying to find someone just blasting away without checking.) --Phil | Talk 07:54, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you for one of the least un-gracious responses I have received in a while. (Whew, am I glad I didn't strop at you about using a global-text-replace which broke that URL ;-) Think the litotes  will work? Dunno, have to wait and see. --Phil | Talk 15:20, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)

Ashlee Simpson's Autobiography
Why are you preaching to the choir? Do you seriously believe I don't want my work edited? Everyking 23:30, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Would you please stop talking about my work in bold like I've made some claim to ownership? I find it very irritating. It is not that my work is somehow special. It is that I believe that what is good should not be changed into what is bad, a standard which applies to all articles, even if my eyes have never looked upon them. However, I believe in community consensus more than anything, so if people want the article reduced to a stub, they can do it—if they have consensus. But I still ought to have a voice and be able to represent the inclusionist POV on the matter. Everyking 23:53, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Professor in accounting VfD
Please consider changing your vote on Votes for deletion/Professor in accounting, if you see this soon enough: we are supposed to be voting on whether there could ever be an article deserving the title Professor in accounting. If this ends up keep, the result will be a RfD on Professor in accounting, (and a VfD on Accounting scholarship, for that matter). The result of the vote going for Del is not about deleting Accounting scholarship, so your current vote says just that the title you didn't like should be kept. --Jerzy(t) 22:21, 2005 Jan 11 (UTC)

Greetings from JohnTex
Hi DeathPhoenix (cool name, BTW) - thanks for your help figuring out what to do about Rooster Teeth Productions. As you have already observed, we joined Wikipedia on the same day. I've already run across your name so many times, I would have guessed that you had been here longer. We must happen upon some of the same places, such as VfD. Speaking of which, I see you agreed with me on deleting Back-up Friend, but you think we should keep Glenn. Oh well, I guess I can't expect to bend others to my will 100% of the time. :-) Speaking of which, I see I am clearly in the minority opinion on iPod shuffle.  Maybe someone will throw me a sympathy vote? I hope we will get a chance to do some more collaborative editing.   Johntex 00:52, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Excellent! Thanks for the sympathy vote. I see one ohter person has voted to delete as well. It looks like I will be on the losing side of the vote, but at least I know I was not completely alone. Johntex 04:01, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Fellow David Eddings fan
I have the complete Belgariad, Malloreon, the two prequels and the Rivan Codex.

I also have all other books they have written with the sole exeception of High Hunt and The Treasured One. I am currently reading The Elder Gods, and consider Regina's Song and The Losers to be some of the best mainstream books I have ever read. Generally I read fantasy.

Check this quote if you don't believe me "'Ignore the face,' Garion told him. 'It isn't real. Zandramas is trying to frighten us into madness. The face isn't there. It doesn't even have as much substance as a shadow.'" David (& Leigh unacknowledged) EDDINGS, Book 5 of the Malloreon, The Seeress of Kell, Page 314

I also read userfriendly.org, which I only came across about 3 months ago. It features a new cartoon every day and has done since 1997. About 1 month ago I became upto date with it, and have since got involved with the community.

You have voted to delete the article on the creator of userfriendly.org, purely on the basis that lots of new members want to keep it. While I understand that you want people who are involved long term, and not just for one vote, that is not the way to encourage new members to participate. I strongly urge you to reconsider.

Epideme 03:06, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your gracious withdrawal
I understand your frustration about vanity articles, but as you can clearly see that is not the case here. I hope that when I go back to check the vote page you have altered your vote as you said.

I would disagree that I am a better David Eddings fan - you may have concentrated on the Belgariad, Malloreon, and Garion (who is a fantastic hero), but I have more eclectic reading tastes, and thus read lots of fantasy. I have read them through twice at least, but that appears to be nowhere near as many times as you.

In my opinion, a lot of David Eddings books have the same storyline - albeit told very well and with different characters - and if his fantasy books were all I judged him on I might be disappointed with some of them which seem little more than rehashes of the Belgariad and Malloreon. However, I cannot overstate how much I enjoyed The Losers and Regina's Song, both fresh books with intriguing and intricate storylines. Don't get me wrong, I like all his fantasy stuff particularly the stuff with Garion in, but I find myself recommending those two mainstream books of his to people (Of course it's not easy to get someone to start reading a story which stretchs across 12 books and has more background information as well).

If you like fantasy, and not just David Eddings, may I recommend Stephen Lawhead, Weis & Hickmen, David Gemmell & R A Salvatore. The best mixture of fantasy and dark humour in my opinion is Good Omens by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman.

Epideme 03:58, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thank you and I will certainly read those articles
Now that I have "dipped my toe" in editing, you will probably see my name quite frequently.

I look forward to collaborating with you on David Eddings, and thanks once again for your time.

Epideme

Etat Quebecois VfD
Thanks for your help with the VFD thing. JillandJack 22:31, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

E-mails?
Hi, did you send me two e-mails a couple of days ago? If so, I've just found them now, but I don't understand what they are about. Jayjg (talk) 18:29, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * O.K., sorry for the inconvenience. I only got two e-mails (presumably the second and third), which is why I didn't understand what they were about.  As well, they were trapped by my spam filters, so that delayed them. Jayjg (talk)  18:45, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

High schools in ...
Not every high school is notable, therefore is not included into the Wikipedia... as clearly seen from the VFD process. How can categories accomplish the same thing as a list when there is not an article for every high school? -- AllyUnion (talk) 11:07, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

List of Ontario Premiers
Thanks, Death, for making that change. Kevintoronto 00:03, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Federal elections charts
Hello, again, Death, my old friend. I’d like to get some consensus on what to do about colours in the elections charts, but I don’t want to get into a revert war, so I’m asking people to express their opinions here before any changes are made. Since you weighed in on this on the Ont premiers page, I'd value your contribution.

I am initiating this discussion because some of the colours that are currently being used are too dark for some monitors so that it is difficult to read the text. The point of adding colours to the charts is to make it easier for readers to derive information from the charts. This goal is foiled by using colours dark enough to obscure the text. The Wikipedia style guide is clear on the issue:
 * Use colour sparingly. Computers and browsers vary: you cannot know how much colour is presented on the recipient's machine if any. Wikipedia is international: colours have different meaning in different cultures. Too many colours on one page make them look cluttered and unencyclopedic. Use the colour red only for alerts and warnings.

So let’s choose some colours that are light enough that red Wilkilinked text and blue Wikilinked text are both easy to read through.

Please join the discussion at: Talk:Canadian federal election results since 1867. Thanks, Kevintoronto 17:26, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks for your comments. I have changed things on the Talk page to incorporate links. I think it helps a lot. I'd support your change for the Liberal Party, too. please add your suggestion. Thanks muchly.Kevintoronto 18:11, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * That's a great chart. I couldn't figure out how to do that, so I'll go in and take a look at the code. Now we'll have to see what response we get from the solid colour fans. Thanks again. Kevintoronto 22:18, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for nudging me on that issue, Death, and for volunteering your services. I've been meaning to try to move things along. I had been waiting for User:The Tom, who in the past changed the colours to the darker ones, but he doesn't seem to be around these days. I've posted a notice on the Cdn discussion page as you suggested, and set up a voting system at Talk:Canadian federal election results since 1867. Let's give it a week and see what comes out of it. Keep up the great work you've been doing. Kevintoronto 16:41, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Your idea for automating the colourshift process would sound great if I could understand any of it. It's way over my head - not because of the way you explained it, but because my coding skills are so lacking. I was assuming that it would have to be done the old fashioned way, through tedious manual changes. If you can figure out a way of speeding things up, that would be great. If not, perhaps we can split up the responsibilities. So far, there are only 3 votes, which bothers me a bit. I'd like to have a fair sample so that we have a basis for reverting oif someoen comes along in six months and starts mucking things up again. We'll see how things go over the next week. Kevintoronto 14:16, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

VfD grunt work
You asked at WP:AN about VfD. Certainly, you can handle any nomination that doesn't end in delete. And it would be a great help. In fact, consistently helping to close keepers is a good way to get nominated for adminship, if that's what you want. (Worked for me!)

Please let me know if you have any questions about the deletion process. dbenbenn | talk 00:17, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * hahaha... thanks for the advice, and I'd be glad to help. I'm not really looking into getting an adminship now (I'm way too new), but down the road, it may be useful for WP:CSDs and reverting vandalism. --Deathphoenix 00:32, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for helping out with the gruntwork. One thing to remember: when you do a merge or redirect (Rising crescent moon), check "what links here" and fix any resulting double redirects. dbenbenn | talk 17:41, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Woops, I must have missed that one. I did a double-redirect check on most of them (and fixed one for Synnax, but I must have missed that one. My apologies. --Deathphoenix 18:21, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * No problem at all. I forget too sometimes.  dbenbenn | talk 00:12, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hey, Dbenbenn, I have a question for you regarding the VfD notices. I've noticed a couple of times that other people blank VfD notices on VfD articles without going through the deletion process. Although the discussion result is keep, should I drop a polite note to the author not to do it again, or should I just let it slide because the article is kept anyway? So far, I've just assumed good faith and not dropped a message (because the blanking is usually done after the five day VfD period), but what's the standard procedure for matters such as this? Thanks for your help. --Deathphoenix 07:57, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

 * Hey Death. I don't think there's a standard procedure.  I usually just let it slide, out of laziness.  But if you drop a link to the deletion process at their talk page, that might have the beneficial effect of recruiting more VfD helpers.  dbenbenn | talk 00:06, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

In recognition...

In recognition of your persistent dedication to the community on Wikipedia_talk:Barnstars_on_Wikipedia, I hereby award you with the The Barnstar of Diligence – ClockworkSoul 21:00, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. You've earned it. – ClockworkSoul 21:58, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

!
Yes, that is a nifty feature: it centres and bolds the text quickly and easily. Cheers, Kevintoronto 16:54, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Redirection of Bell inequalities to Bell's theorem
Hi Death, The info contained in Bell inequalities should presumably now be incorporated into Bell's theorem but, as I pointed out in the discussion re possible deletion, the notation of the existing Bell's theorem page and that of the other inequalities is inconsistent. What is anyone intending to do about this? Caroline Thompson 18:40, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

major RFC changes
Thanks for your comments at Village pump (policy).

I think we have pretty clear consensus (except for jguk) that the page should be returned to the old procedures, at least for now. I'd like to ask you to please keep an eye on it. He has promised to keep reverting (ad nauseum), so it'd be nice if he see's I'm not the only one undoing his proposal. Primarily, this is because I don't want to see that very important page further disrupted. Please also keep an eye on the example subpage templates at Requests for comment/Example admin and Requests for comment/Example user. Thanks. -- Netoholic @ 21:41, 2005 Mar 11 (UTC)

 * Please feel free to add any comments you have on Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment, where the new approach has already been discussed by other interested parties. It is an attempt to avoid confrontation (which is probably why Netoholic objects to it). The new approach is not perfect, but it is certainly an improvement on the nasty, divisive approach that we used to have. As I say, your comments on the talk page would be welcome, jguk 21:56, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thanks mate
I'm rather afraid that it's pretty permanent (though I might pop up every now and again - it depends on how much I can steele to stay away from this site!). I'll probably do typo fixes and update articles via anonymous edits. Incidently, it would be cool to get an oddball barnstar :) Anyway, hope things go well with you and the site. I'll still be consulting it for info! - Ta bu shi da yu 08:03, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Mi Ulimo Adios
Hi. Thanks for your edits. I'm not too familiar with other wikimedia and went to wikisource and could not find Mi Ultimo Adios. I'd like to create a link to the poem contents. could you direct me. Thanks. --Jondel 00:55, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't bother splitting the poem off into a separate article. You can move it direct to Wikisource by cut-and-paste. Just go back to the main page, jump to the Wikisource page and create an article there with the content you want to move. The transwiki process says that we can preserve GFDL attribution by also cut-and-pasting the history page into the new article's Talk page along with a comment that this was a move from Wikipedia. There is a lot of other stuff in the transwiki process but most of it needn't apply for a very simple move. At the end of the transwiki process, tag the leftover article for speedy deletion (if appropriate).

To answer Jondel's question, once it's moved, the link he/she will create will then have to be in the format Article title. (There is a short-cut but it escapes me just now.) Rossami (talk) 05:03, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

elections stuff
I'm pretty bummed out. thanks for the encouragement. It makes it pretty hard to develop a concensus when that sort of thing goes on. Of course, now MS123 will probably wise up and improve his sock puppetry to avoid detection, rather than changing his behaviour. You plan for adjusting colours looks like a lot of work, but will be worth it. The problem is, we have four votes for B and four for C. Which approach do we take? While I prefer B, C might be less likely to result in someone coming along and reverting all of the colours, which of course would be easy to do since they will all be in one place. Kevintoronto 15:24, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the userfy!
Thank you very much! Kim Bruning 21:43, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Duplicate link
In Requests for arbitration/Iasson/Evidence, there seems to be a duplication of posted links, for #s 21 and 22:

 * Acestorides (talk · contributions) made a few dubious edits to the Science and History of Science articles before getting the password changed: 19 20 21
 * The final blockable action was vandalism of the WP:RFAR page: 22

--Calton | Talk 07:21, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Never mind, I think I found the link you meant to put in, and have taken the liberty of replacing the dupe with it. --Calton | Talk 11:45, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Duey Finster--159.134.48.112 00:49, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for your reasonable judegement in relation to my article on Mr. Duey Finster. I hope to contribute more to wikipedia in the future and knowing theres a nice community of folks running it makes me want to contribute even more (and encourage others)

Thank you!!! --159.134.48.112 00:49, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ranks.
Hmm... heh. :) Since you are fascinated by ranks these two articles may interest you. I have all the ranks for NATO though am currently preocupied with school work. Cat chi? 16:39, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Ranks and insignia of Starfleet
 * Ranks and Insignia of NATO
 * Awww. Wait till I complete that article. Cat chi? 16:49, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ontario general election, 1943
Hey Death, I already have a table prepared for this election, but I see you've put your name down for it (and all of the prior Ont elections). I don't want to step on toes, but I want to avoid duplication of effort. Regards, Kevintoronto 23:59, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Images and media for deletion votes

 * I am contacting people who previously helped to vote to delete a generally objectionable photograph by a vote of 88 to 21, and who might be unaware that immediately after that image was voted to be deleted someone posted another which was very similar in content. My objections to this, and the previous image that was voted to be deleted might be based upon reasons far different from any that you have, but I do object to it, and consider the posting of such images to be acts of asinine stupidity, which burdens the project and its major educational aims in ways that they should not be burdened, and can be extremely detrimental to the acceptance and growth of WIkipedia's use and influence. Thus far those who I believe to be in the extreme minority of Wikipedians who would like to include these images, many who have been channeled to the voting page from the article with which it is associated have dominated the voting, 23 to 12 (as of the time that I composed this message). I would like to be somewhat instrumental in shedding a bit more light upon the issue, and if possible, helping to turn the tide against its inclusion. It might also be necessary to begin making an effort to establish an explicit Wikipedia policy against explicite photographic depictions of humans engaged in erotic, auto-erotic, or quasi-erotic activities. To my limited knowledge such images have not been accepted as appropriate anywhere else within this project, and frankly I can agree with those who are casually labeled prudes for opposing their inclusion, that they should not be. Vitally important information that might be unwelcome by some is one thing that should never be deleted, but un-needed images that can eventually prevent or impede many thousands or millions of people from gaining access to the great mass of truly important information that Wikipedia provides is quite another matter. There are vitally important distinctions to be made. Whatever your reasons, or final decisions upon the matter, I am appealing for more input on the voting that is occurring at Wikipedia:Images_and_media_for_deletion. ~ Achilles † 01:10, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Election charts revisions
Hey Death, great to have you on board the project. Your revision looks great, but would you also want to add a column for % change in # of seats? It's not a big thing, in fact, I seem to recall that when I first started working on elections tables, I was putting in a # change, but soeone else insisted on a % change. But I suggest it only for the sake of uniformity. If you don't want to do it, then don't. I think the new format of the tables is a big improvement over the old format, and, if changing my vote on the A/B/C/D options would make any difference, I think I would move the new format from 3rd choice to 1st choice. Regards, Kevintoronto 18:20, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Looks good. I think it's worth fixing things up generally whenever I'm in an article. I tend to leave out the columns for which there are no data, but that's just me. Have fun. Kevintoronto 18:56, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Thanks for taking on the remaining federal elections. I'll focus on Saskabush for the time-being. You've convinced me about including all of the columns even if we don't have the data. I'll do so going forward, but I don't think I'll go back to the Onatrio pages and refit them, at least not until I have data to put in. I've been bolding the #s of seats won since that is probabaly the most important column for most people, and is consistent with some of the exisitng tables. You might want to consider continuing that. Thanks again. Kevintoronto 12:54, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * The Yukon page looks great. What is the lighter grey that you are using? Ground Zero 21:53, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

 * Sorry, Death. It looked to me like the colour was lighter than darkgray, but I've checked The Tom's template, and I see that it is the same. Regards, Ground Zero 22:13, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Excuse me for saying so, but you are being very hypocritical. Removing the colour from the column is stupid if you say it obscures the text. Every election chart has headings with bold text against a dark grey background. To say that is not as bad as red or orange background does not make sense. Every site has a result chart that establishes the colour of every party. That same colour is used for every column heading! So it should be easy for anyone viewing this site to connect the dots. Alot of concessions have been made from all sides over the colour issue, and I don't think that it is too much of a compromise to keep the colours with the coloumn heading considering the points that I have made above. MS123

The results tables for every election has a dark grey colour with a black text. That would be far more unreadable that a small sqare with orange or blue. This is a small part that shoudn't bother anybody, especially considering the party colours are established in the results table and are used in the riding results table. Think about it. Red colour next to the liberals in the results table, and a red square in the riding by riding results table. The average person should be able to connect the dots and determine that its the liberal column. If you are still absolutly against this, then why don't we make a small picture that has the colour against white text

What do you think? MS123

I have considered what you said and so I have made some more headings for the other parties. Remember that only mainstream parties get there own columns, and so right now there aren't any parties that I could think of that would not work with a white text. I realize that times and parties that are in the fringe can come in to the mainstream, and so I have thoug of some possible solutions to the white text using the tan colour of the CCF to demonstrate.

MS123

What WikiProject Rankings project is not

 * This is not suggesting a hierarcal system.
 * It will be used only by users who want to use it.
 * Only ranking will be assigend to users who want to use it.
 * The idea ment to make it like barn stars, but based on regular contribution.
 * It is currently a prototype, likely that it is nothing like the final version.

I urge you to reconsider your vote based on this clarification. Thanks Cat chi? 08:43, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Barnstar stuff
Heya, DP! I was just wondering if you could drop by Barnstar and award proposals and vote on the Science and Mathematics star and name? Currently, it's pretty close, and more votes would give us a better perspective on a possible consensus. Cheers! – ClockworkSoul 16:48, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Your input, please
Some more ideas here on formatting of elections tables. I hope these won't be controversial. Ground Zero 19:55, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Removing blocks on greek socks
It's probably not necessary to remove those blocks. Blocks on IP addresses have a certain overhead, because they need to be checked every time, every edit... but blocks on a username only need to be checked once, at login time. I don't think there's any real overhead at all. -- Curps 05:25, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Xiong
Hi there! Because the RFC about Xiong seemed to deal mainly on his disagreements with Netoholic, I thought it best to start a new RFC to see if people have comments on Xiong's behavior that do not relate to Netoholic. Please give your thoughts and/or opinion on that at Requests for comment/Xiong. Radiant_* 08:26, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)

Template standardisation
If you get a sec, drop by there and vote? I have a horse in the race that I think has a chance, and I would like your opinion. – ClockworkSoul 02:08, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Masturbation
Would you care to register an opinon on the Masturbation Talk page as to whether a full color photograph of male masturbation is suitable for that page? Thank you. Force10 22:36, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

extraneous "=" ?
Dear Deathphoenix,

Thought I should let you know that the extraneous "=" you've found on Auschwitz concentration camp wasn't really a typo. After some digging, I've found this evidence at the crime scene. :-) Anyway, I've just reverted the section blanking.

Cheers ! -- PFHLai 19:32, 2005 May 5 (UTC)

Federal elections
I hope that you don't mind that I've gone ahead and done some more federal election table conversions. I figure that you don't seem to have much time to do them, so I'd go ahead. Regards, Ground Zero 21:35, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Vandal voters
Death, the user who posted this report of "vandalism" has been blocked for 24 Hours. He posted that information in for the seventh time. He has been told before that VIP is not a place to discuss that, since it has been determined it is not vandalism. I would not be surprised if he does do it again. I first started to think it is a translation problem, now I think he has an axe to grind against me and others who voted to delete and the admins that helped him and the admins that closed the debate and deleted the article. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 16:45, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Closed Prison Gang VfD result backwards?
I thought the result of the vote was to Keep 'prison gang', and merge 'STG' into it, rather than keep 'STG' and merge 'Prison gang' into it. You merged them opposite of that. Prison gang should be the main article, and the law enforcement neology 'STG' should be the redirect. If you have a preference for the way you did it, I won't complain. Thanks. --Unfocused 21:04, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

title: User talk:Deathphoenix/Archive1