text:
Talk:iddof

Discussion regarding conjugated forms of the Welsh preposition i
Hello, Mahāgaja. Nine years ago, you deleted the page for the Welsh "conjugated" preposition (the first-person singular form of ), giving the deletion reason "Created in error: no such word". Having used it my whole life, I was taken aback by this and went looking for evidence to prove that exists. I found this prescription from 1883, but no uses as such. What I did find was a couple of documents pertaining to the WJEC GCSE Welsh language exam for the 2019–2020 academic year, which mark "iddof (f)i" as incorrect. It seems, to my dismay, that I've been using a nonstandard colloquialism my whole life! That being said, I think this is evidence that does exist, even if it isn't standard. Would you agree? If so, would you mind undeleting, please? It could probably do with being tagged with, too. 0DF (talk) 17:20, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * @0DF This is entirely up to you, but I dislike pairing “nonstandard” with “colloquial”, since it feels a bit superfluous while also being disparaging of colloquialisms. Theknightwho (talk) 17:45, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I feel like prescriptive documents saying "don't do this" still don't count as uses. The is useful for Vulgar Latin because it's otherwise so poorly attested, but Welsh has a pretty strong living speaker base, and even the colloquial register isn't hard to find in writing. Of course, final -f tends to disappear in colloquial Welsh, so perhaps it would be easier to find examples of people using iddo (f)i. —Mahāgaja · talk 17:53, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Google Books yielded two Welsh results for the string  without intervening punctuation, namely:
 * “Pa beth bynag fydd clod ne anghlod y tesni a sugnis o’r tai nefol heno, nid ’iddo fi’r naill na’r llall.”
 * wherein =  (not ), and:
 * “oedd ti ’di gweud iddo fi beth i neud.”
 * which the same source parses “was you say to I what to do” (small-caps mine) and translates “you had told me what to do.” This latter use is a transcription of a child's speech. The choice of how to parse and translate that speech would have been made by the author (Bob Morris Jones), not the child. Referring to Jones's conventions in his corpus examples and inferring from  that the child spoke in a South Welsh dialect, I reconstruct that child's sentence thus:
 * but it would be bizarre if I then respelt that:
 * “oedd ti ’di gweu diddo fi be thi neud”
 * My point is that where to place word divisions is a matter of judgment; words aren't neatly divided at syllable boundaries. Jones chose to parse that child's as the ungrammatical “to I”, rather than as the grammatical “to I” ; I would dispute his interpretation. (Of course,  is the standard preposition for construing the indirect object of , but that's neither here nor there.) 0DF (talk) 19:36, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * My point is that where to place word divisions is a matter of judgment; words aren't neatly divided at syllable boundaries. Jones chose to parse that child's as the ungrammatical “to I”, rather than as the grammatical “to I” ; I would dispute his interpretation. (Of course,  is the standard preposition for construing the indirect object of , but that's neither here nor there.) 0DF (talk) 19:36, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Well, at the moment it doesn't look likely that anyone would run across it and want to know what it means. —Mahāgaja · talk 19:44, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Fair point. I'll keep an eye out for uses in print. I only need one, right? 0DF (talk) 20:05, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * For Welsh, yes. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:10, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * OK, thanks. 0DF (talk) 21:00, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Hello again. I went looking for the rest of ap Emrys' forms of (except the standard, , and , of course) and found one use each of  and , qq.v. @Mahāgaja: Since you also deleted  and  giving the reason "Created in error: no such word", would you be happy at this point to undelete those two entries, please? I wouldn't say that "nonstandard" and "colloquial" are a redundant combination. There are many colloquialisms that are perfectly standard, but which simply wouldn't occur in writing (unless that writing intentionally represented speech, as in dialogue), although most colloquialisms are probably informal. In the case of and, however, their contexts at least are nonstandard: • “Mae hwn y peth mwyaf pwysig gofynnais iddot gwneud erioed.” → “Hwn yw’r peth pwysicaf y gofynnais iddot wneud erioed.” • “Y mynedfa hyn rhôf iddoch I ofalu hyd yr oesoedd, Dros cynhedliadau dirifedi” → “Y fynedfa hon y rhof iddoch I ofalu drosti hyd yr oesoedd, Dros genedlaethau dirifedi” Infer from that what you will. 0DF (talk) 22:36, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I've restored and . —Mahāgaja · talk 22:51, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Thank you kindly. My idiolectal usage actually differs slightly from the forms ap Emrys prescribed: I consistently use and, but I oscillate between  and  for the first-person plural and I only use  for the second-person plural. Accordingly, I may look into whether I can attest , , , and . 0DF (talk) 00:07, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:iddof


text: လွင်ႈၵႅမ်

license: Creative Commons - Attribution Share-Alike - https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/

title: လွင်ႈၵႅမ်


text:
Talk:iddot

Discussion regarding conjugated forms of the Welsh preposition i
Hello, Mahāgaja. Nine years ago, you deleted the page for the Welsh "conjugated" preposition (the first-person singular form of ), giving the deletion reason "Created in error: no such word". Having used it my whole life, I was taken aback by this and went looking for evidence to prove that exists. I found this prescription from 1883, but no uses as such. What I did find was a couple of documents pertaining to the WJEC GCSE Welsh language exam for the 2019–2020 academic year, which mark "iddof (f)i" as incorrect. It seems, to my dismay, that I've been using a nonstandard colloquialism my whole life! That being said, I think this is evidence that does exist, even if it isn't standard. Would you agree? If so, would you mind undeleting, please? It could probably do with being tagged with, too. 0DF (talk) 17:20, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * @0DF This is entirely up to you, but I dislike pairing “nonstandard” with “colloquial”, since it feels a bit superfluous while also being disparaging of colloquialisms. Theknightwho (talk) 17:45, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I feel like prescriptive documents saying "don't do this" still don't count as uses. The is useful for Vulgar Latin because it's otherwise so poorly attested, but Welsh has a pretty strong living speaker base, and even the colloquial register isn't hard to find in writing. Of course, final -f tends to disappear in colloquial Welsh, so perhaps it would be easier to find examples of people using iddo (f)i. —Mahāgaja · talk 17:53, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Google Books yielded two Welsh results for the string  without intervening punctuation, namely:
 * “Pa beth bynag fydd clod ne anghlod y tesni a sugnis o’r tai nefol heno, nid ’iddo fi’r naill na’r llall.”
 * wherein =  (not ), and:
 * “oedd ti ’di gweud iddo fi beth i neud.”
 * which the same source parses “was you say to I what to do” (small-caps mine) and translates “you had told me what to do.” This latter use is a transcription of a child's speech. The choice of how to parse and translate that speech would have been made by the author (Bob Morris Jones), not the child. Referring to Jones's conventions in his corpus examples and inferring from  that the child spoke in a South Welsh dialect, I reconstruct that child's sentence thus:
 * but it would be bizarre if I then respelt that:
 * “oedd ti ’di gweu diddo fi be thi neud”
 * My point is that where to place word divisions is a matter of judgment; words aren't neatly divided at syllable boundaries. Jones chose to parse that child's as the ungrammatical “to I”, rather than as the grammatical “to I” ; I would dispute his interpretation. (Of course,  is the standard preposition for construing the indirect object of , but that's neither here nor there.) 0DF (talk) 19:36, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * My point is that where to place word divisions is a matter of judgment; words aren't neatly divided at syllable boundaries. Jones chose to parse that child's as the ungrammatical “to I”, rather than as the grammatical “to I” ; I would dispute his interpretation. (Of course,  is the standard preposition for construing the indirect object of , but that's neither here nor there.) 0DF (talk) 19:36, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Well, at the moment it doesn't look likely that anyone would run across it and want to know what it means. —Mahāgaja · talk 19:44, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Fair point. I'll keep an eye out for uses in print. I only need one, right? 0DF (talk) 20:05, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * For Welsh, yes. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:10, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * OK, thanks. 0DF (talk) 21:00, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Hello again. I went looking for the rest of ap Emrys' forms of (except the standard, , and , of course) and found one use each of  and , qq.v. @Mahāgaja: Since you also deleted  and  giving the reason "Created in error: no such word", would you be happy at this point to undelete those two entries, please? I wouldn't say that "nonstandard" and "colloquial" are a redundant combination. There are many colloquialisms that are perfectly standard, but which simply wouldn't occur in writing (unless that writing intentionally represented speech, as in dialogue), although most colloquialisms are probably informal. In the case of and, however, their contexts at least are nonstandard: • “Mae hwn y peth mwyaf pwysig gofynnais iddot gwneud erioed.” → “Hwn yw’r peth pwysicaf y gofynnais iddot wneud erioed.” • “Y mynedfa hyn rhôf iddoch I ofalu hyd yr oesoedd, Dros cynhedliadau dirifedi” → “Y fynedfa hon y rhof iddoch I ofalu drosti hyd yr oesoedd, Dros genedlaethau dirifedi” Infer from that what you will. 0DF (talk) 22:36, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I've restored and . —Mahāgaja · talk 22:51, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Thank you kindly. My idiolectal usage actually differs slightly from the forms ap Emrys prescribed: I consistently use and, but I oscillate between  and  for the first-person plural and I only use  for the second-person plural. Accordingly, I may look into whether I can attest , , , and . 0DF (talk) 00:07, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:iddot


text:
Talk:iddo

Discussion regarding conjugated forms of the Welsh preposition i
Hello, Mahāgaja. Nine years ago, you deleted the page for the Welsh "conjugated" preposition (the first-person singular form of ), giving the deletion reason "Created in error: no such word". Having used it my whole life, I was taken aback by this and went looking for evidence to prove that exists. I found this prescription from 1883, but no uses as such. What I did find was a couple of documents pertaining to the WJEC GCSE Welsh language exam for the 2019–2020 academic year, which mark "iddof (f)i" as incorrect. It seems, to my dismay, that I've been using a nonstandard colloquialism my whole life! That being said, I think this is evidence that does exist, even if it isn't standard. Would you agree? If so, would you mind undeleting, please? It could probably do with being tagged with, too. 0DF (talk) 17:20, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * @0DF This is entirely up to you, but I dislike pairing “nonstandard” with “colloquial”, since it feels a bit superfluous while also being disparaging of colloquialisms. Theknightwho (talk) 17:45, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I feel like prescriptive documents saying "don't do this" still don't count as uses. The is useful for Vulgar Latin because it's otherwise so poorly attested, but Welsh has a pretty strong living speaker base, and even the colloquial register isn't hard to find in writing. Of course, final -f tends to disappear in colloquial Welsh, so perhaps it would be easier to find examples of people using iddo (f)i. —Mahāgaja · talk 17:53, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Google Books yielded two Welsh results for the string  without intervening punctuation, namely:
 * “Pa beth bynag fydd clod ne anghlod y tesni a sugnis o’r tai nefol heno, nid ’iddo fi’r naill na’r llall.”
 * wherein =  (not ), and:
 * “oedd ti ’di gweud iddo fi beth i neud.”
 * which the same source parses “was you say to I what to do” (small-caps mine) and translates “you had told me what to do.” This latter use is a transcription of a child's speech. The choice of how to parse and translate that speech would have been made by the author (Bob Morris Jones), not the child. Referring to Jones's conventions in his corpus examples and inferring from  that the child spoke in a South Welsh dialect, I reconstruct that child's sentence thus:
 * but it would be bizarre if I then respelt that:
 * “oedd ti ’di gweu diddo fi be thi neud”
 * My point is that where to place word divisions is a matter of judgment; words aren't neatly divided at syllable boundaries. Jones chose to parse that child's as the ungrammatical “to I”, rather than as the grammatical “to I” ; I would dispute his interpretation. (Of course,  is the standard preposition for construing the indirect object of , but that's neither here nor there.) 0DF (talk) 19:36, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * My point is that where to place word divisions is a matter of judgment; words aren't neatly divided at syllable boundaries. Jones chose to parse that child's as the ungrammatical “to I”, rather than as the grammatical “to I” ; I would dispute his interpretation. (Of course,  is the standard preposition for construing the indirect object of , but that's neither here nor there.) 0DF (talk) 19:36, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Well, at the moment it doesn't look likely that anyone would run across it and want to know what it means. —Mahāgaja · talk 19:44, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Fair point. I'll keep an eye out for uses in print. I only need one, right? 0DF (talk) 20:05, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * For Welsh, yes. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:10, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * OK, thanks. 0DF (talk) 21:00, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Hello again. I went looking for the rest of ap Emrys' forms of (except the standard, , and , of course) and found one use each of  and , qq.v. @Mahāgaja: Since you also deleted  and  giving the reason "Created in error: no such word", would you be happy at this point to undelete those two entries, please? I wouldn't say that "nonstandard" and "colloquial" are a redundant combination. There are many colloquialisms that are perfectly standard, but which simply wouldn't occur in writing (unless that writing intentionally represented speech, as in dialogue), although most colloquialisms are probably informal. In the case of and, however, their contexts at least are nonstandard: • “Mae hwn y peth mwyaf pwysig gofynnais iddot gwneud erioed.” → “Hwn yw’r peth pwysicaf y gofynnais iddot wneud erioed.” • “Y mynedfa hyn rhôf iddoch I ofalu hyd yr oesoedd, Dros cynhedliadau dirifedi” → “Y fynedfa hon y rhof iddoch I ofalu drosti hyd yr oesoedd, Dros genedlaethau dirifedi” Infer from that what you will. 0DF (talk) 22:36, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I've restored and . —Mahāgaja · talk 22:51, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Thank you kindly. My idiolectal usage actually differs slightly from the forms ap Emrys prescribed: I consistently use and, but I oscillate between  and  for the first-person plural and I only use  for the second-person plural. Accordingly, I may look into whether I can attest , , , and . 0DF (talk) 00:07, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:iddo


text:
Talk:iddi

Discussion regarding conjugated forms of the Welsh preposition i
Hello, Mahāgaja. Nine years ago, you deleted the page for the Welsh "conjugated" preposition (the first-person singular form of ), giving the deletion reason "Created in error: no such word". Having used it my whole life, I was taken aback by this and went looking for evidence to prove that exists. I found this prescription from 1883, but no uses as such. What I did find was a couple of documents pertaining to the WJEC GCSE Welsh language exam for the 2019–2020 academic year, which mark "iddof (f)i" as incorrect. It seems, to my dismay, that I've been using a nonstandard colloquialism my whole life! That being said, I think this is evidence that does exist, even if it isn't standard. Would you agree? If so, would you mind undeleting, please? It could probably do with being tagged with, too. 0DF (talk) 17:20, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * @0DF This is entirely up to you, but I dislike pairing “nonstandard” with “colloquial”, since it feels a bit superfluous while also being disparaging of colloquialisms. Theknightwho (talk) 17:45, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I feel like prescriptive documents saying "don't do this" still don't count as uses. The is useful for Vulgar Latin because it's otherwise so poorly attested, but Welsh has a pretty strong living speaker base, and even the colloquial register isn't hard to find in writing. Of course, final -f tends to disappear in colloquial Welsh, so perhaps it would be easier to find examples of people using iddo (f)i. —Mahāgaja · talk 17:53, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Google Books yielded two Welsh results for the string  without intervening punctuation, namely:
 * “Pa beth bynag fydd clod ne anghlod y tesni a sugnis o’r tai nefol heno, nid ’iddo fi’r naill na’r llall.”
 * wherein =  (not ), and:
 * “oedd ti ’di gweud iddo fi beth i neud.”
 * which the same source parses “was you say to I what to do” (small-caps mine) and translates “you had told me what to do.” This latter use is a transcription of a child's speech. The choice of how to parse and translate that speech would have been made by the author (Bob Morris Jones), not the child. Referring to Jones's conventions in his corpus examples and inferring from  that the child spoke in a South Welsh dialect, I reconstruct that child's sentence thus:
 * but it would be bizarre if I then respelt that:
 * “oedd ti ’di gweu diddo fi be thi neud”
 * My point is that where to place word divisions is a matter of judgment; words aren't neatly divided at syllable boundaries. Jones chose to parse that child's as the ungrammatical “to I”, rather than as the grammatical “to I” ; I would dispute his interpretation. (Of course,  is the standard preposition for construing the indirect object of , but that's neither here nor there.) 0DF (talk) 19:36, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * My point is that where to place word divisions is a matter of judgment; words aren't neatly divided at syllable boundaries. Jones chose to parse that child's as the ungrammatical “to I”, rather than as the grammatical “to I” ; I would dispute his interpretation. (Of course,  is the standard preposition for construing the indirect object of , but that's neither here nor there.) 0DF (talk) 19:36, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Well, at the moment it doesn't look likely that anyone would run across it and want to know what it means. —Mahāgaja · talk 19:44, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Fair point. I'll keep an eye out for uses in print. I only need one, right? 0DF (talk) 20:05, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * For Welsh, yes. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:10, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * OK, thanks. 0DF (talk) 21:00, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Hello again. I went looking for the rest of ap Emrys' forms of (except the standard, , and , of course) and found one use each of  and , qq.v. @Mahāgaja: Since you also deleted  and  giving the reason "Created in error: no such word", would you be happy at this point to undelete those two entries, please? I wouldn't say that "nonstandard" and "colloquial" are a redundant combination. There are many colloquialisms that are perfectly standard, but which simply wouldn't occur in writing (unless that writing intentionally represented speech, as in dialogue), although most colloquialisms are probably informal. In the case of and, however, their contexts at least are nonstandard: • “Mae hwn y peth mwyaf pwysig gofynnais iddot gwneud erioed.” → “Hwn yw’r peth pwysicaf y gofynnais iddot wneud erioed.” • “Y mynedfa hyn rhôf iddoch I ofalu hyd yr oesoedd, Dros cynhedliadau dirifedi” → “Y fynedfa hon y rhof iddoch I ofalu drosti hyd yr oesoedd, Dros genedlaethau dirifedi” Infer from that what you will. 0DF (talk) 22:36, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I've restored and . —Mahāgaja · talk 22:51, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Thank you kindly. My idiolectal usage actually differs slightly from the forms ap Emrys prescribed: I consistently use and, but I oscillate between  and  for the first-person plural and I only use  for the second-person plural. Accordingly, I may look into whether I can attest , , , and . 0DF (talk) 00:07, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:iddi


text:
Talk:iddom

Discussion regarding conjugated forms of the Welsh preposition i
Hello, Mahāgaja. Nine years ago, you deleted the page for the Welsh "conjugated" preposition (the first-person singular form of ), giving the deletion reason "Created in error: no such word". Having used it my whole life, I was taken aback by this and went looking for evidence to prove that exists. I found this prescription from 1883, but no uses as such. What I did find was a couple of documents pertaining to the WJEC GCSE Welsh language exam for the 2019–2020 academic year, which mark "iddof (f)i" as incorrect. It seems, to my dismay, that I've been using a nonstandard colloquialism my whole life! That being said, I think this is evidence that does exist, even if it isn't standard. Would you agree? If so, would you mind undeleting, please? It could probably do with being tagged with, too. 0DF (talk) 17:20, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * @0DF This is entirely up to you, but I dislike pairing “nonstandard” with “colloquial”, since it feels a bit superfluous while also being disparaging of colloquialisms. Theknightwho (talk) 17:45, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I feel like prescriptive documents saying "don't do this" still don't count as uses. The is useful for Vulgar Latin because it's otherwise so poorly attested, but Welsh has a pretty strong living speaker base, and even the colloquial register isn't hard to find in writing. Of course, final -f tends to disappear in colloquial Welsh, so perhaps it would be easier to find examples of people using iddo (f)i. —Mahāgaja · talk 17:53, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Google Books yielded two Welsh results for the string  without intervening punctuation, namely:
 * “Pa beth bynag fydd clod ne anghlod y tesni a sugnis o’r tai nefol heno, nid ’iddo fi’r naill na’r llall.”
 * wherein =  (not ), and:
 * “oedd ti ’di gweud iddo fi beth i neud.”
 * which the same source parses “was you say to I what to do” (small-caps mine) and translates “you had told me what to do.” This latter use is a transcription of a child's speech. The choice of how to parse and translate that speech would have been made by the author (Bob Morris Jones), not the child. Referring to Jones's conventions in his corpus examples and inferring from  that the child spoke in a South Welsh dialect, I reconstruct that child's sentence thus:
 * but it would be bizarre if I then respelt that:
 * “oedd ti ’di gweu diddo fi be thi neud”
 * My point is that where to place word divisions is a matter of judgment; words aren't neatly divided at syllable boundaries. Jones chose to parse that child's as the ungrammatical “to I”, rather than as the grammatical “to I” ; I would dispute his interpretation. (Of course,  is the standard preposition for construing the indirect object of , but that's neither here nor there.) 0DF (talk) 19:36, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * My point is that where to place word divisions is a matter of judgment; words aren't neatly divided at syllable boundaries. Jones chose to parse that child's as the ungrammatical “to I”, rather than as the grammatical “to I” ; I would dispute his interpretation. (Of course,  is the standard preposition for construing the indirect object of , but that's neither here nor there.) 0DF (talk) 19:36, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Well, at the moment it doesn't look likely that anyone would run across it and want to know what it means. —Mahāgaja · talk 19:44, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Fair point. I'll keep an eye out for uses in print. I only need one, right? 0DF (talk) 20:05, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * For Welsh, yes. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:10, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * OK, thanks. 0DF (talk) 21:00, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Hello again. I went looking for the rest of ap Emrys' forms of (except the standard, , and , of course) and found one use each of  and , qq.v. @Mahāgaja: Since you also deleted  and  giving the reason "Created in error: no such word", would you be happy at this point to undelete those two entries, please? I wouldn't say that "nonstandard" and "colloquial" are a redundant combination. There are many colloquialisms that are perfectly standard, but which simply wouldn't occur in writing (unless that writing intentionally represented speech, as in dialogue), although most colloquialisms are probably informal. In the case of and, however, their contexts at least are nonstandard: • “Mae hwn y peth mwyaf pwysig gofynnais iddot gwneud erioed.” → “Hwn yw’r peth pwysicaf y gofynnais iddot wneud erioed.” • “Y mynedfa hyn rhôf iddoch I ofalu hyd yr oesoedd, Dros cynhedliadau dirifedi” → “Y fynedfa hon y rhof iddoch I ofalu drosti hyd yr oesoedd, Dros genedlaethau dirifedi” Infer from that what you will. 0DF (talk) 22:36, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I've restored and . —Mahāgaja · talk 22:51, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Thank you kindly. My idiolectal usage actually differs slightly from the forms ap Emrys prescribed: I consistently use and, but I oscillate between  and  for the first-person plural and I only use  for the second-person plural. Accordingly, I may look into whether I can attest , , , and . 0DF (talk) 00:07, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:iddom


text:
Talk:iddoch

Discussion regarding conjugated forms of the Welsh preposition i
Hello, Mahāgaja. Nine years ago, you deleted the page for the Welsh "conjugated" preposition (the first-person singular form of ), giving the deletion reason "Created in error: no such word". Having used it my whole life, I was taken aback by this and went looking for evidence to prove that exists. I found this prescription from 1883, but no uses as such. What I did find was a couple of documents pertaining to the WJEC GCSE Welsh language exam for the 2019–2020 academic year, which mark "iddof (f)i" as incorrect. It seems, to my dismay, that I've been using a nonstandard colloquialism my whole life! That being said, I think this is evidence that does exist, even if it isn't standard. Would you agree? If so, would you mind undeleting, please? It could probably do with being tagged with, too. 0DF (talk) 17:20, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * @0DF This is entirely up to you, but I dislike pairing “nonstandard” with “colloquial”, since it feels a bit superfluous while also being disparaging of colloquialisms. Theknightwho (talk) 17:45, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I feel like prescriptive documents saying "don't do this" still don't count as uses. The is useful for Vulgar Latin because it's otherwise so poorly attested, but Welsh has a pretty strong living speaker base, and even the colloquial register isn't hard to find in writing. Of course, final -f tends to disappear in colloquial Welsh, so perhaps it would be easier to find examples of people using iddo (f)i. —Mahāgaja · talk 17:53, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Google Books yielded two Welsh results for the string  without intervening punctuation, namely:
 * “Pa beth bynag fydd clod ne anghlod y tesni a sugnis o’r tai nefol heno, nid ’iddo fi’r naill na’r llall.”
 * wherein =  (not ), and:
 * “oedd ti ’di gweud iddo fi beth i neud.”
 * which the same source parses “was you say to I what to do” (small-caps mine) and translates “you had told me what to do.” This latter use is a transcription of a child's speech. The choice of how to parse and translate that speech would have been made by the author (Bob Morris Jones), not the child. Referring to Jones's conventions in his corpus examples and inferring from  that the child spoke in a South Welsh dialect, I reconstruct that child's sentence thus:
 * but it would be bizarre if I then respelt that:
 * “oedd ti ’di gweu diddo fi be thi neud”
 * My point is that where to place word divisions is a matter of judgment; words aren't neatly divided at syllable boundaries. Jones chose to parse that child's as the ungrammatical “to I”, rather than as the grammatical “to I” ; I would dispute his interpretation. (Of course,  is the standard preposition for construing the indirect object of , but that's neither here nor there.) 0DF (talk) 19:36, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * My point is that where to place word divisions is a matter of judgment; words aren't neatly divided at syllable boundaries. Jones chose to parse that child's as the ungrammatical “to I”, rather than as the grammatical “to I” ; I would dispute his interpretation. (Of course,  is the standard preposition for construing the indirect object of , but that's neither here nor there.) 0DF (talk) 19:36, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Well, at the moment it doesn't look likely that anyone would run across it and want to know what it means. —Mahāgaja · talk 19:44, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Fair point. I'll keep an eye out for uses in print. I only need one, right? 0DF (talk) 20:05, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * For Welsh, yes. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:10, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * OK, thanks. 0DF (talk) 21:00, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Hello again. I went looking for the rest of ap Emrys' forms of (except the standard, , and , of course) and found one use each of  and , qq.v. @Mahāgaja: Since you also deleted  and  giving the reason "Created in error: no such word", would you be happy at this point to undelete those two entries, please? I wouldn't say that "nonstandard" and "colloquial" are a redundant combination. There are many colloquialisms that are perfectly standard, but which simply wouldn't occur in writing (unless that writing intentionally represented speech, as in dialogue), although most colloquialisms are probably informal. In the case of and, however, their contexts at least are nonstandard: • “Mae hwn y peth mwyaf pwysig gofynnais iddot gwneud erioed.” → “Hwn yw’r peth pwysicaf y gofynnais iddot wneud erioed.” • “Y mynedfa hyn rhôf iddoch I ofalu hyd yr oesoedd, Dros cynhedliadau dirifedi” → “Y fynedfa hon y rhof iddoch I ofalu drosti hyd yr oesoedd, Dros genedlaethau dirifedi” Infer from that what you will. 0DF (talk) 22:36, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I've restored and . —Mahāgaja · talk 22:51, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Thank you kindly. My idiolectal usage actually differs slightly from the forms ap Emrys prescribed: I consistently use and, but I oscillate between  and  for the first-person plural and I only use  for the second-person plural. Accordingly, I may look into whether I can attest , , , and . 0DF (talk) 00:07, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:iddoch


text:
Talk:iddynt

Discussion regarding conjugated forms of the Welsh preposition i
Hello, Mahāgaja. Nine years ago, you deleted the page for the Welsh "conjugated" preposition (the first-person singular form of ), giving the deletion reason "Created in error: no such word". Having used it my whole life, I was taken aback by this and went looking for evidence to prove that exists. I found this prescription from 1883, but no uses as such. What I did find was a couple of documents pertaining to the WJEC GCSE Welsh language exam for the 2019–2020 academic year, which mark "iddof (f)i" as incorrect. It seems, to my dismay, that I've been using a nonstandard colloquialism my whole life! That being said, I think this is evidence that does exist, even if it isn't standard. Would you agree? If so, would you mind undeleting, please? It could probably do with being tagged with, too. 0DF (talk) 17:20, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * @0DF This is entirely up to you, but I dislike pairing “nonstandard” with “colloquial”, since it feels a bit superfluous while also being disparaging of colloquialisms. Theknightwho (talk) 17:45, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I feel like prescriptive documents saying "don't do this" still don't count as uses. The is useful for Vulgar Latin because it's otherwise so poorly attested, but Welsh has a pretty strong living speaker base, and even the colloquial register isn't hard to find in writing. Of course, final -f tends to disappear in colloquial Welsh, so perhaps it would be easier to find examples of people using iddo (f)i. —Mahāgaja · talk 17:53, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Google Books yielded two Welsh results for the string  without intervening punctuation, namely:
 * “Pa beth bynag fydd clod ne anghlod y tesni a sugnis o’r tai nefol heno, nid ’iddo fi’r naill na’r llall.”
 * wherein =  (not ), and:
 * “oedd ti ’di gweud iddo fi beth i neud.”
 * which the same source parses “was you say to I what to do” (small-caps mine) and translates “you had told me what to do.” This latter use is a transcription of a child's speech. The choice of how to parse and translate that speech would have been made by the author (Bob Morris Jones), not the child. Referring to Jones's conventions in his corpus examples and inferring from  that the child spoke in a South Welsh dialect, I reconstruct that child's sentence thus:
 * but it would be bizarre if I then respelt that:
 * “oedd ti ’di gweu diddo fi be thi neud”
 * My point is that where to place word divisions is a matter of judgment; words aren't neatly divided at syllable boundaries. Jones chose to parse that child's as the ungrammatical “to I”, rather than as the grammatical “to I” ; I would dispute his interpretation. (Of course,  is the standard preposition for construing the indirect object of , but that's neither here nor there.) 0DF (talk) 19:36, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * My point is that where to place word divisions is a matter of judgment; words aren't neatly divided at syllable boundaries. Jones chose to parse that child's as the ungrammatical “to I”, rather than as the grammatical “to I” ; I would dispute his interpretation. (Of course,  is the standard preposition for construing the indirect object of , but that's neither here nor there.) 0DF (talk) 19:36, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Well, at the moment it doesn't look likely that anyone would run across it and want to know what it means. —Mahāgaja · talk 19:44, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Fair point. I'll keep an eye out for uses in print. I only need one, right? 0DF (talk) 20:05, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * For Welsh, yes. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:10, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * OK, thanks. 0DF (talk) 21:00, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Hello again. I went looking for the rest of ap Emrys' forms of (except the standard, , and , of course) and found one use each of  and , qq.v. @Mahāgaja: Since you also deleted  and  giving the reason "Created in error: no such word", would you be happy at this point to undelete those two entries, please? I wouldn't say that "nonstandard" and "colloquial" are a redundant combination. There are many colloquialisms that are perfectly standard, but which simply wouldn't occur in writing (unless that writing intentionally represented speech, as in dialogue), although most colloquialisms are probably informal. In the case of and, however, their contexts at least are nonstandard: • “Mae hwn y peth mwyaf pwysig gofynnais iddot gwneud erioed.” → “Hwn yw’r peth pwysicaf y gofynnais iddot wneud erioed.” • “Y mynedfa hyn rhôf iddoch I ofalu hyd yr oesoedd, Dros cynhedliadau dirifedi” → “Y fynedfa hon y rhof iddoch I ofalu drosti hyd yr oesoedd, Dros genedlaethau dirifedi” Infer from that what you will. 0DF (talk) 22:36, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I've restored and . —Mahāgaja · talk 22:51, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Thank you kindly. My idiolectal usage actually differs slightly from the forms ap Emrys prescribed: I consistently use and, but I oscillate between  and  for the first-person plural and I only use  for the second-person plural. Accordingly, I may look into whether I can attest , , , and . 0DF (talk) 00:07, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:iddynt


text:
Talk:iddyf

Discussion regarding conjugated forms of the Welsh preposition i
Hello, Mahāgaja. Nine years ago, you deleted the page for the Welsh "conjugated" preposition (the first-person singular form of ), giving the deletion reason "Created in error: no such word". Having used it my whole life, I was taken aback by this and went looking for evidence to prove that exists. I found this prescription from 1883, but no uses as such. What I did find was a couple of documents pertaining to the WJEC GCSE Welsh language exam for the 2019–2020 academic year, which mark "iddof (f)i" as incorrect. It seems, to my dismay, that I've been using a nonstandard colloquialism my whole life! That being said, I think this is evidence that does exist, even if it isn't standard. Would you agree? If so, would you mind undeleting, please? It could probably do with being tagged with, too. 0DF (talk) 17:20, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * @0DF This is entirely up to you, but I dislike pairing “nonstandard” with “colloquial”, since it feels a bit superfluous while also being disparaging of colloquialisms. Theknightwho (talk) 17:45, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I feel like prescriptive documents saying "don't do this" still don't count as uses. The is useful for Vulgar Latin because it's otherwise so poorly attested, but Welsh has a pretty strong living speaker base, and even the colloquial register isn't hard to find in writing. Of course, final -f tends to disappear in colloquial Welsh, so perhaps it would be easier to find examples of people using iddo (f)i. —Mahāgaja · talk 17:53, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Google Books yielded two Welsh results for the string  without intervening punctuation, namely:
 * “Pa beth bynag fydd clod ne anghlod y tesni a sugnis o’r tai nefol heno, nid ’iddo fi’r naill na’r llall.”
 * wherein =  (not ), and:
 * “oedd ti ’di gweud iddo fi beth i neud.”
 * which the same source parses “was you say to I what to do” (small-caps mine) and translates “you had told me what to do.” This latter use is a transcription of a child's speech. The choice of how to parse and translate that speech would have been made by the author (Bob Morris Jones), not the child. Referring to Jones's conventions in his corpus examples and inferring from  that the child spoke in a South Welsh dialect, I reconstruct that child's sentence thus:
 * but it would be bizarre if I then respelt that:
 * “oedd ti ’di gweu diddo fi be thi neud”
 * My point is that where to place word divisions is a matter of judgment; words aren't neatly divided at syllable boundaries. Jones chose to parse that child's as the ungrammatical “to I”, rather than as the grammatical “to I” ; I would dispute his interpretation. (Of course,  is the standard preposition for construing the indirect object of , but that's neither here nor there.) 0DF (talk) 19:36, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * My point is that where to place word divisions is a matter of judgment; words aren't neatly divided at syllable boundaries. Jones chose to parse that child's as the ungrammatical “to I”, rather than as the grammatical “to I” ; I would dispute his interpretation. (Of course,  is the standard preposition for construing the indirect object of , but that's neither here nor there.) 0DF (talk) 19:36, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Well, at the moment it doesn't look likely that anyone would run across it and want to know what it means. —Mahāgaja · talk 19:44, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Fair point. I'll keep an eye out for uses in print. I only need one, right? 0DF (talk) 20:05, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * For Welsh, yes. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:10, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * OK, thanks. 0DF (talk) 21:00, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Hello again. I went looking for the rest of ap Emrys' forms of (except the standard, , and , of course) and found one use each of  and , qq.v. @Mahāgaja: Since you also deleted  and  giving the reason "Created in error: no such word", would you be happy at this point to undelete those two entries, please? I wouldn't say that "nonstandard" and "colloquial" are a redundant combination. There are many colloquialisms that are perfectly standard, but which simply wouldn't occur in writing (unless that writing intentionally represented speech, as in dialogue), although most colloquialisms are probably informal. In the case of and, however, their contexts at least are nonstandard: • “Mae hwn y peth mwyaf pwysig gofynnais iddot gwneud erioed.” → “Hwn yw’r peth pwysicaf y gofynnais iddot wneud erioed.” • “Y mynedfa hyn rhôf iddoch I ofalu hyd yr oesoedd, Dros cynhedliadau dirifedi” → “Y fynedfa hon y rhof iddoch I ofalu drosti hyd yr oesoedd, Dros genedlaethau dirifedi” Infer from that what you will. 0DF (talk) 22:36, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I've restored and . —Mahāgaja · talk 22:51, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Thank you kindly. My idiolectal usage actually differs slightly from the forms ap Emrys prescribed: I consistently use and, but I oscillate between  and  for the first-person plural and I only use  for the second-person plural. Accordingly, I may look into whether I can attest , , , and . 0DF (talk) 00:07, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:iddyf


text:
Talk:iddyt

Discussion regarding conjugated forms of the Welsh preposition i
Hello, Mahāgaja. Nine years ago, you deleted the page for the Welsh "conjugated" preposition (the first-person singular form of ), giving the deletion reason "Created in error: no such word". Having used it my whole life, I was taken aback by this and went looking for evidence to prove that exists. I found this prescription from 1883, but no uses as such. What I did find was a couple of documents pertaining to the WJEC GCSE Welsh language exam for the 2019–2020 academic year, which mark "iddof (f)i" as incorrect. It seems, to my dismay, that I've been using a nonstandard colloquialism my whole life! That being said, I think this is evidence that does exist, even if it isn't standard. Would you agree? If so, would you mind undeleting, please? It could probably do with being tagged with, too. 0DF (talk) 17:20, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * @0DF This is entirely up to you, but I dislike pairing “nonstandard” with “colloquial”, since it feels a bit superfluous while also being disparaging of colloquialisms. Theknightwho (talk) 17:45, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I feel like prescriptive documents saying "don't do this" still don't count as uses. The is useful for Vulgar Latin because it's otherwise so poorly attested, but Welsh has a pretty strong living speaker base, and even the colloquial register isn't hard to find in writing. Of course, final -f tends to disappear in colloquial Welsh, so perhaps it would be easier to find examples of people using iddo (f)i. —Mahāgaja · talk 17:53, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Google Books yielded two Welsh results for the string  without intervening punctuation, namely:
 * “Pa beth bynag fydd clod ne anghlod y tesni a sugnis o’r tai nefol heno, nid ’iddo fi’r naill na’r llall.”
 * wherein =  (not ), and:
 * “oedd ti ’di gweud iddo fi beth i neud.”
 * which the same source parses “was you say to I what to do” (small-caps mine) and translates “you had told me what to do.” This latter use is a transcription of a child's speech. The choice of how to parse and translate that speech would have been made by the author (Bob Morris Jones), not the child. Referring to Jones's conventions in his corpus examples and inferring from  that the child spoke in a South Welsh dialect, I reconstruct that child's sentence thus:
 * but it would be bizarre if I then respelt that:
 * “oedd ti ’di gweu diddo fi be thi neud”
 * My point is that where to place word divisions is a matter of judgment; words aren't neatly divided at syllable boundaries. Jones chose to parse that child's as the ungrammatical “to I”, rather than as the grammatical “to I” ; I would dispute his interpretation. (Of course,  is the standard preposition for construing the indirect object of , but that's neither here nor there.) 0DF (talk) 19:36, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * My point is that where to place word divisions is a matter of judgment; words aren't neatly divided at syllable boundaries. Jones chose to parse that child's as the ungrammatical “to I”, rather than as the grammatical “to I” ; I would dispute his interpretation. (Of course,  is the standard preposition for construing the indirect object of , but that's neither here nor there.) 0DF (talk) 19:36, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Well, at the moment it doesn't look likely that anyone would run across it and want to know what it means. —Mahāgaja · talk 19:44, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Fair point. I'll keep an eye out for uses in print. I only need one, right? 0DF (talk) 20:05, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * For Welsh, yes. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:10, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * OK, thanks. 0DF (talk) 21:00, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Hello again. I went looking for the rest of ap Emrys' forms of (except the standard, , and , of course) and found one use each of  and , qq.v. @Mahāgaja: Since you also deleted  and  giving the reason "Created in error: no such word", would you be happy at this point to undelete those two entries, please? I wouldn't say that "nonstandard" and "colloquial" are a redundant combination. There are many colloquialisms that are perfectly standard, but which simply wouldn't occur in writing (unless that writing intentionally represented speech, as in dialogue), although most colloquialisms are probably informal. In the case of and, however, their contexts at least are nonstandard: • “Mae hwn y peth mwyaf pwysig gofynnais iddot gwneud erioed.” → “Hwn yw’r peth pwysicaf y gofynnais iddot wneud erioed.” • “Y mynedfa hyn rhôf iddoch I ofalu hyd yr oesoedd, Dros cynhedliadau dirifedi” → “Y fynedfa hon y rhof iddoch I ofalu drosti hyd yr oesoedd, Dros genedlaethau dirifedi” Infer from that what you will. 0DF (talk) 22:36, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I've restored and . —Mahāgaja · talk 22:51, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Thank you kindly. My idiolectal usage actually differs slightly from the forms ap Emrys prescribed: I consistently use and, but I oscillate between  and  for the first-person plural and I only use  for the second-person plural. Accordingly, I may look into whether I can attest , , , and . 0DF (talk) 00:07, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:iddyt


text:
Talk:iddym

Discussion regarding conjugated forms of the Welsh preposition i
Hello, Mahāgaja. Nine years ago, you deleted the page for the Welsh "conjugated" preposition (the first-person singular form of ), giving the deletion reason "Created in error: no such word". Having used it my whole life, I was taken aback by this and went looking for evidence to prove that exists. I found this prescription from 1883, but no uses as such. What I did find was a couple of documents pertaining to the WJEC GCSE Welsh language exam for the 2019–2020 academic year, which mark "iddof (f)i" as incorrect. It seems, to my dismay, that I've been using a nonstandard colloquialism my whole life! That being said, I think this is evidence that does exist, even if it isn't standard. Would you agree? If so, would you mind undeleting, please? It could probably do with being tagged with, too. 0DF (talk) 17:20, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * @0DF This is entirely up to you, but I dislike pairing “nonstandard” with “colloquial”, since it feels a bit superfluous while also being disparaging of colloquialisms. Theknightwho (talk) 17:45, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I feel like prescriptive documents saying "don't do this" still don't count as uses. The is useful for Vulgar Latin because it's otherwise so poorly attested, but Welsh has a pretty strong living speaker base, and even the colloquial register isn't hard to find in writing. Of course, final -f tends to disappear in colloquial Welsh, so perhaps it would be easier to find examples of people using iddo (f)i. —Mahāgaja · talk 17:53, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Google Books yielded two Welsh results for the string  without intervening punctuation, namely:
 * “Pa beth bynag fydd clod ne anghlod y tesni a sugnis o’r tai nefol heno, nid ’iddo fi’r naill na’r llall.”
 * wherein =  (not ), and:
 * “oedd ti ’di gweud iddo fi beth i neud.”
 * which the same source parses “was you say to I what to do” (small-caps mine) and translates “you had told me what to do.” This latter use is a transcription of a child's speech. The choice of how to parse and translate that speech would have been made by the author (Bob Morris Jones), not the child. Referring to Jones's conventions in his corpus examples and inferring from  that the child spoke in a South Welsh dialect, I reconstruct that child's sentence thus:
 * but it would be bizarre if I then respelt that:
 * “oedd ti ’di gweu diddo fi be thi neud”
 * My point is that where to place word divisions is a matter of judgment; words aren't neatly divided at syllable boundaries. Jones chose to parse that child's as the ungrammatical “to I”, rather than as the grammatical “to I” ; I would dispute his interpretation. (Of course,  is the standard preposition for construing the indirect object of , but that's neither here nor there.) 0DF (talk) 19:36, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * My point is that where to place word divisions is a matter of judgment; words aren't neatly divided at syllable boundaries. Jones chose to parse that child's as the ungrammatical “to I”, rather than as the grammatical “to I” ; I would dispute his interpretation. (Of course,  is the standard preposition for construing the indirect object of , but that's neither here nor there.) 0DF (talk) 19:36, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Well, at the moment it doesn't look likely that anyone would run across it and want to know what it means. —Mahāgaja · talk 19:44, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Fair point. I'll keep an eye out for uses in print. I only need one, right? 0DF (talk) 20:05, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * For Welsh, yes. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:10, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * OK, thanks. 0DF (talk) 21:00, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Hello again. I went looking for the rest of ap Emrys' forms of (except the standard, , and , of course) and found one use each of  and , qq.v. @Mahāgaja: Since you also deleted  and  giving the reason "Created in error: no such word", would you be happy at this point to undelete those two entries, please? I wouldn't say that "nonstandard" and "colloquial" are a redundant combination. There are many colloquialisms that are perfectly standard, but which simply wouldn't occur in writing (unless that writing intentionally represented speech, as in dialogue), although most colloquialisms are probably informal. In the case of and, however, their contexts at least are nonstandard: • “Mae hwn y peth mwyaf pwysig gofynnais iddot gwneud erioed.” → “Hwn yw’r peth pwysicaf y gofynnais iddot wneud erioed.” • “Y mynedfa hyn rhôf iddoch I ofalu hyd yr oesoedd, Dros cynhedliadau dirifedi” → “Y fynedfa hon y rhof iddoch I ofalu drosti hyd yr oesoedd, Dros genedlaethau dirifedi” Infer from that what you will. 0DF (talk) 22:36, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I've restored and . —Mahāgaja · talk 22:51, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Thank you kindly. My idiolectal usage actually differs slightly from the forms ap Emrys prescribed: I consistently use and, but I oscillate between  and  for the first-person plural and I only use  for the second-person plural. Accordingly, I may look into whether I can attest , , , and . 0DF (talk) 00:07, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

title: Talk:iddym


text:
Talk:iddych

Discussion regarding conjugated forms of the Welsh preposition i
Hello, Mahāgaja. Nine years ago, you deleted the page for the Welsh "conjugated" preposition (the first-person singular form of ), giving the deletion reason "Created in error: no such word". Having used it my whole life, I was taken aback by this and went looking for evidence to prove that exists. I found this prescription from 1883, but no uses as such. What I did find was a couple of documents pertaining to the WJEC GCSE Welsh language exam for the 2019–2020 academic year, which mark "iddof (f)i" as incorrect. It seems, to my dismay, that I've been using a nonstandard colloquialism my whole life! That being said, I think this is evidence that does exist, even if it isn't standard. Would you agree? If so, would you mind undeleting, please? It could probably do with being tagged with, too. 0DF (talk) 17:20, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * @0DF This is entirely up to you, but I dislike pairing “nonstandard” with “colloquial”, since it feels a bit superfluous while also being disparaging of colloquialisms. Theknightwho (talk) 17:45, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I feel like prescriptive documents saying "don't do this" still don't count as uses. The is useful for Vulgar Latin because it's otherwise so poorly attested, but Welsh has a pretty strong living speaker base, and even the colloquial register isn't hard to find in writing. Of course, final -f tends to disappear in colloquial Welsh, so perhaps it would be easier to find examples of people using iddo (f)i. —Mahāgaja · talk 17:53, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Google Books yielded two Welsh results for the string  without intervening punctuation, namely:
 * “Pa beth bynag fydd clod ne anghlod y tesni a sugnis o’r tai nefol heno, nid ’iddo fi’r naill na’r llall.”
 * wherein =  (not ), and:
 * “oedd ti ’di gweud iddo fi beth i neud.”
 * which the same source parses “was you say to I what to do” (small-caps mine) and translates “you had told me what to do.” This latter use is a transcription of a child's speech. The choice of how to parse and translate that speech would have been made by the author (Bob Morris Jones), not the child. Referring to Jones's conventions in his corpus examples and inferring from  that the child spoke in a South Welsh dialect, I reconstruct that child's sentence thus:
 * but it would be bizarre if I then respelt that:
 * “oedd ti ’di gweu diddo fi be thi neud”
 * My point is that where to place word divisions is a matter of judgment; words aren't neatly divided at syllable boundaries. Jones chose to parse that child's as the ungrammatical “to I”, rather than as the grammatical “to I” ; I would dispute his interpretation. (Of course,  is the standard preposition for construing the indirect object of , but that's neither here nor there.) 0DF (talk) 19:36, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * My point is that where to place word divisions is a matter of judgment; words aren't neatly divided at syllable boundaries. Jones chose to parse that child's as the ungrammatical “to I”, rather than as the grammatical “to I” ; I would dispute his interpretation. (Of course,  is the standard preposition for construing the indirect object of , but that's neither here nor there.) 0DF (talk) 19:36, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Well, at the moment it doesn't look likely that anyone would run across it and want to know what it means. —Mahāgaja · talk 19:44, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Fair point. I'll keep an eye out for uses in print. I only need one, right? 0DF (talk) 20:05, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * For Welsh, yes. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:10, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 * OK, thanks. 0DF (talk) 21:00, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Hello again. I went looking for the rest of ap Emrys' forms of (except the standard, , and , of course) and found one use each of  and , qq.v. @Mahāgaja: Since you also deleted  and  giving the reason "Created in error: no such word", would you be happy at this point to undelete those two entries, please? I wouldn't say that "nonstandard" and "colloquial" are a redundant combination. There are many colloquialisms that are perfectly standard, but which simply wouldn't occur in writing (unless that writing intentionally represented speech, as in dialogue), although most colloquialisms are probably informal. In the case of and, however, their contexts at least are nonstandard: • “Mae hwn y peth mwyaf pwysig gofynnais iddot gwneud erioed.” → “Hwn yw’r peth pwysicaf y gofynnais iddot wneud erioed.” • “Y mynedfa hyn rhôf iddoch I ofalu hyd yr oesoedd, Dros cynhedliadau dirifedi” → “Y fynedfa hon y rhof iddoch I ofalu drosti hyd yr oesoedd, Dros genedlaethau dirifedi” Infer from that what you will. 0DF (talk) 22:36, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

 * I've restored and . —Mahāgaja · talk 22:51, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

 * Thank you kindly. My idiolectal usage actually differs slightly from the forms ap Emrys prescribed: I consistently use and, but I oscillate between  and  for the first-person plural and I only use  for the second-person plural. Accordingly, I may look into whether I can attest , , , and . 0DF (talk) 00:07, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

How should we label this form?
Further to our recent conversation, I was able to attest the form, as you can see from the four quotations at Citations:iddych. Accordingly, I created an entry for it. At the moment, it just has the pronunciation and grammatical gloss. Do you think it also needs one or more labels (cf. )? If so, which? The uses in the quotations I gathered do not have nonstandard contexts, unlike those of and. As for a tag, I don't know. Thoughts? 0DF (talk) 15:42, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

 * Everything on the citations page is from the 19th century, so maybe "dated" or "obsolete"? If it's still used nowadays, then maybe "nonstandard" as well. —Mahāgaja · talk 15:46, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

 * Well, I still use it, FWIW. I'm sure it sometimes comes across as a bit formal or old-fashioned when I use it in text messages and personal emails, but its meaning is transparent to anyone familiar with conjugated prepositions. That may suggest "dated", but not "obsolete". As for "nonstandard", it's hard to say: Was it nonstandard then, or just now? What makes it nonstandard? 0DF (talk) 16:24, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I'd say what makes them nonstandard is that the reference grammars (John Morris Jones's A Welsh Grammar for Middle and early modern Welsh, David A. Thorne's A Comprehensive Welsh Grammar for the literary language, Gareth King's Modern Welsh: A Comprehensive Grammar for the modern colloquial language, to name three sitting on my bookshelf) make no mention of them, even though all three aim to be descriptive rather than prescriptive grammars. Another option instead of or in addition to "dated" and "obsolete" would be "rare", considering the difficulty you're having finding examples of use of some of them. —Mahāgaja · talk 18:08, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

 * seems fitting, or at least, with the implication that it's rare relative to the frequency of . 0DF (talk) 19:47, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:iddych


text:
twarfusren

Etymology
Compound of 🇰🇲.

Noun

 * 1)  a

title: twarfusren


text:
dfar

Verb

 * 1)  to follow, to pursue
 * 2)  to conform

Derived terms

 * Verbal noun:
 * Causative:
 * Reciprocal:
 * Verbal noun:
 * Passive:

title: dfar


text:
kiedi

Etymology
.

Pronoun

 * 1) ; when
 * 2) ; if; when
 * 3) ; sometime

Conjunction
conjunction

 * 1) ; since
 * 2) ; even though

Particle
particle

 * 1) ; unfortunately

title: kiedi


text:
twarfu

Etymology
From.

title: twarfu


text:
point de collecte

Noun

 * 1) collection point, pick-up point

title: point de collecte


text:
attrapeur

Etymology
From.

Noun

 * 1) deceiver
 * 2) trickster, prankster
 * 3) fetcher, catcher
 * 1) fetcher, catcher

Adjective

 * 1) that tricks
 * 2) that fetches

title: attrapeur


text:
feifi

Etymology
From and/or from, both from.

title: feifi


text: Wiktionary:Word of the day/2024/June 8

title: Wiktionary:Word of the day/2024/June 8


text:
помия

Etymology
(formally reflecting as earlier ). Related to 🇨🇬, 🇨🇬, 🇨🇬.

Noun

 * 1) sewage, swill, slops
 * 2)  insults, aspersions

title: помия


text:
dfeɛ

Etymology
.

Verb

 * 1)  to push, to shove, to eject
 * 2)  to pay
 * 3)  to pray for
 * 4)  to emigrate, to export

Derived terms

 * Verbal noun:

title: dfeɛ


text:
recycling station

Noun

 * 1) A facility where waste materials can be dropped off in order that they be recycled.

Translations

 * French: point de collecte
 * Spanish: punto limpio, punto verde

title: recycling station


text: recycling stations

title: recycling stations


text: Citations:Mahukisi

title: Citations:Mahukisi


text:
camion benne

Noun

 * 1) dump truck

title: camion benne


text:
zielgi

Etymology
.

Adjective

 * 1) great, large
 * 2) great, large
 * 1) great, large

title: zielgi


text: Template:RQ:fr:NCàO

title: Template:RQ:fr:NCàO


text:
zÿczie

Etymology
..

Noun

 * 1) life
 * 1) life

title: zÿczie


text: Category:Masurian verbal nouns

title: Category:Masurian verbal nouns


text: Category:Masurian terms suffixed with -czie


text:
گوز حبسی

Noun

 * 1) surveillance by the police force.

title: گوز حبسی


title: Template:R:xcl:AlexanderRomance:1842


text: Template:RQ:fr:NCàO/documentation

title: Template:RQ:fr:NCàO/documentation


text:
जळ्हु

Etymology
According to Turner, probably of non-Indo-Aryan origin. In the meaning of "cold", probably contaminated with descendants of (whence 🇨🇬 and 🇨🇬). See also.

Adjective

 * 1) cool, dull

title: जळ्हु


text:
dans le détail

Adverb

 * 1) in detail

title: dans le détail


text: stackies

title: stackies


text: stadges

title: stadges


text: Stalwarts

title: Stalwarts


text: -Stans

title: -Stans


text: stanliffs

title: stanliffs


text:
saarlane

Etymology
From.

Noun

 * 1) islander
 * 2) a person from Saaremaa

title: saarlane


text: stannolanes

title: stannolanes


text: staphylothrombins

title: staphylothrombins


text: sternothyroids

title: sternothyroids


text: stibolanes

title: stibolanes


text: stivots

title: stivots


text: stirplates

title: stirplates


text: stindies

title: stindies


text:
Talk:kõhunääre

kõhunääre
@Joonas07 Why is the rhyme of /ˈkɤhuˌnæˑre/ : -æːre? Stríðsdrengur (talk) 14:28, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

 * What do you mean why? It's how rhymes work. Joonas07 (talk) 19:09, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh I mean æːre and æˑre Stríðsdrengur (talk) 20:53, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Right, that was an earlier mistake. Fixed Joonas07 (talk) 21:43, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks Stríðsdrengur (talk) 21:47, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

title: Talk:kõhunääre


text: Sris

title: Sris


text: Category:zlw-mas:Moschatel family plants


text: Citations:Redikultsev

title: Citations:Redikultsev


text: Category:zlw-mas:Olive family plants

title: Category:zlw-mas:Olive family plants


text: Category:zlw-mas:Trees

title: Category:zlw-mas:Trees


text: Category:zlw-mas:Shrubs

title: Category:zlw-mas:Shrubs


text: Category:zlw-mas:Plants

title: Category:zlw-mas:Plants


text: Category:zlw-mas:Lamiales order plants

title: Category:zlw-mas:Lamiales order plants


text: spirotanes

title: spirotanes


text: Citations:Kalga

title: Citations:Kalga


text: spiroepoxides

title: spiroepoxides


text: spinellites

title: spinellites


text: splainings

title: splainings


text: הערצל

title: הערצל


text: הערצלעך

title: הערצלעך


text: spyesses

title: spyesses


text: squadras

title: squadras


text: squalenoylations

title: squalenoylations


text: square root decompositions

title: square root decompositions


text:
košmach

Etymology
From.

Verb

 * 1) to unite, couple

title: košmach


text:
Kalga

Etymology
Borrowed from.

Proper noun

 * 1) A village in the Himachal Pradesh district in India.
 * 2) The second in command and designated heir to the Khan in the Crimean Khanate.
 * 1) The second in command and designated heir to the Khan in the Crimean Khanate.
 * 1) The second in command and designated heir to the Khan in the Crimean Khanate.

title: Kalga


text: Category:en:Villages in Zabaykalsky Krai


text:
kindik

Etymology
From.

Noun

 * 1) navel

title: kindik


text:
piauw

Etymology
Possibly from. Cognate of 🇨🇬.

Noun

 * 1)   a Chinese lottery game

title: piauw


text:
Kolesnikov

Etymology
.

title: Kolesnikov


text:
Redikultsev

Etymology
.

title: Redikultsev


title: User:Undekagon30/vocab/Marathi


text:
卡脖子

Verb

 * 1)  to seize somebody by the neck; to grip someone's throat
 * 2)  to have in a stranglehold; to subdue

title: 卡脖子


text: kinsikinsi

title: kinsikinsi


text:
باقنمق

Verb

 * 1) To look about.

title: باقنمق


text:
kečiv

Etymology
From.

Noun

 * 1) ford

title: kečiv


text: Category:Old Ruthenian terms derived from the Proto-Indo-European root *ǵʰeh₂-


text:
𤖼

Definitions

 * 1)  to split open; to break apart
 * 2)  to spread (one's limbs); to disperse away from each other
 * 3)  to tear
 * 4)  to resell

title: 𤖼


text: вибирається

title: вибирається


text: вибираються

title: вибираються


text:
Reconstruction:Proto-Turkic/(y)ip-

Etymology
, historically multiple conflicting forms exist; *yipin, *yipgin & *yipgil. Clauson regards *yipin to be the original form and considers it a foreign borrowing with *-g- being added on to Turkify the word.

Adjective

 * 1)  purple, violet, dark red

Descendants

 * Karluk:
 * West Kipchak:
 * Siberian:
 * Old Turkic:
 * South Siberian:
 * Sayan Turkic:
 * Siberian:
 * Old Turkic:
 * South Siberian:
 * Sayan Turkic:
 * South Siberian:
 * Sayan Turkic:

title: Reconstruction:Proto-Turkic/(y)ip-


text: вибиратись

title: вибиратись


text:
teadja

Etymology
From.

Adjective

 * 1) learned, knowledgeable, informed, knowing

Noun

 * 1) cognoscente, connoisseur, pundit, adept, maven, expert

title: teadja


text: вибирався

title: вибирався


text: вибиралася

title: вибиралася


text:
kösev

Etymology
From.

Noun

 * 1) brand, piece of wood

title: kösev


text: Category:tl:Walls and fences

title: Category:tl:Walls and fences


text: Gotco

title: Gotco


text: вибиралося

title: вибиралося


text: вибиралися

title: вибиралися


text: Rotko

title: Rotko


text:
ouvrage de référence

Noun

 * 1) reference work

title: ouvrage de référence


text: game modes

title: game modes


text:
game mode

Noun

 * 1)  A distinct configuration that varies gameplay and affects how other game mechanics behave.

title: game mode


text: gamemode

title: gamemode


text: gamemodes

title: gamemodes


text:
poppedijn

Etymology
An extension of.

Noun

 * 1)  doll

title: poppedijn


text: Rothkowitz

title: Rothkowitz


text: crêpe papers

title: crêpe papers


text:
хаосъ

Etymology
.

Noun

 * 1) chaos

title: хаосъ


text: ᜃᜒᜈ᜔ᜐᜒᜃᜒᜈ᜔ᜐᜒ

title: ᜃᜒᜈ᜔ᜐᜒᜃᜒᜈ᜔ᜐᜒ


text: feilim

title: feilim


text:
見人講人話，見鬼講鬼話

Proverb

 * 1)  to be flexible and know what to say in different situations and to different people;  to be crafty and two-faced

title: 見人講人話，見鬼講鬼話


text: feileann

title: feileann


text: crop dusters

title: crop dusters


text:
köletke

Etymology
From.

Noun

 * 1) shade, shadow

title: köletke


text:
pseudowavefunction

Noun

 * 1) A simplified approximation of an electron's wavefunction.

title: pseudowavefunction


text:
snibbig

Etymology
From.

Adjective

 * 1) unfriendly in a brusque way, mean, acrimonious

title: snibbig


text:
kazych

Etymology
From.

Noun

 * 1) stake

title: kazych


text: fheileann

title: fheileann


text: bhfeileann

title: bhfeileann


text: chiev

title: chiev


text:
Hombeek

Etymology
From, from 🇰🇲, meaning 'honey-colored creek'. It could also be derived from the name Huno.

title: Hombeek


text:
kagyt

Etymology
From ,

Noun

 * 1) paper

title: kagyt


text:
食四面風，講五色話

Proverb

 * 1)  to be flexible and know what to say in different situations and to different people

title: 食四面風，講五色話


text: fhéadaim

title: fhéadaim


text:
鐘聲

Noun

 * 1) sound of a (large) bell

title: 鐘聲


text: 钟声

title: 钟声


text: 鍾聲

title: 鍾聲


text: iddych

title: iddych


text: qiānniánchóng

title: qiānniánchóng


text: אסתּרן

title: אסתּרן


text:
Appendix:Variations of "boja"

The word “boja” appears in many languages with many variations in the use of capitalization, punctuation, and diacritics.

Capitalization and punctuation

 * boja
 * Boja
 * BOJA

Diacritics

 * bojá
 * boją
 * bója
 * böja
 * bǿja

Other scripts

 * Cyrillic
 * боја
 * боя

title: Appendix:Variations of "boja"


text:
晚稻

Noun

 * 1) rice that matures after

title: 晚稻


text: Reconstruction:Proto-Koreanic/kopoLi

title: Reconstruction:Proto-Koreanic/kopoLi


text:
post-affiliation

Adjective

 * 1) After an affiliation.

title: post-affiliation


text:
pre-affiliation

Adjective

 * 1) Before an affiliation.

title: pre-affiliation


text:
晚造禾

Noun

 * 1)  rice that matures after

title: 晚造禾